Anti-Choice Groups Increasingly Reveal Their Anti-Contraception Agenda


Periodically, I take some time in this space to take the temperature of the anti-choice movement and, sadly, most of the time I’m forced to conclude that they are getting bolder all the time, moving further and further away from bad faith arguments about “life” and speaking more freely and aggressively about their true motivations: To control and punish people, particularly women, who engage in non-procreative sex. Unsurprisingly, a major Supreme Court victory against access to contraception has been emboldening on this front, but even just a couple of years of contentious debate about contraceptive coverage has, it seems, made the hardline anti-choicers feel that the public is ready to embrace their more draconian anti-sex arguments.

Take this response from Rebecca Taylor to the Hobby Lobby case posted at LifeNews a couple weeks ago titled, “Dear Hobby Lobby Haters: Birth Control is Not Medicine.” The title really says it all, but as you can imagine, the text is just delightful. Taylor is trying to deny that religious exemptions to insurance plans covering contraception will not lead to similar exemptions for religions that object to vaccinations and blood transfusions because those things are medicine, but “birth control is not medicine nor is it therapeutic.”

Of course, her reasoning for that is religious in nature, since actual medical authorities disagree, making her reasoning purely circular: Birth control is not medicine because she says so. But her reasons, unsurprisingly, come back to pushing an agenda about your sex life. “Really birth control is something that allows people to engage in baby-making behavior without making babies,” defining sex strictly as a procreative behavior despite the mountains of anthropological and biological evidence that suggests humans have evolved so that sex is mostly a social interaction that primarily serves to make us feel good and bond with partners. Taylor treats contraception as some kind of wild kink, therefore, calling it a “lifestyle choice” and denying that the ACA covers barrier methods tied to individual sex acts. (False, nearly all are. Condoms aren’t covered, but that’s because they aren’t offered by prescription and are not hard to get for free or on the cheap.) The pearl-clutching prudery is becoming less subtext and more text all the time.

That’s definitely on display with Lila Rose’s latest string of so-called “exposés” of Planned Parenthood where her investigators pretend to be teenagers asking sex advice and—gasp!—they get honest answers to their pointed questions from people whose job it is to give just such honest, non-judgmental answers. They try to add to the shock factor by mentioning the light erotic bestseller Fifty Shades of Grey and asking about bondage and S&M, but that doesn’t really change the most salient fact about these videos, which is Lila Rose has dropped the pretense about “life” completely. Nothing about these videos has anything to do with “life,” but it’s all about trying to get people riled up about sex practices that Rose clearly thinks are kinky and weird, though tying up and spanking are practically vanilla these days.

The videos only work if you believe that there’s something wrong with sexually active people—either teenagers or people of any age—being honest and upfront about having sex because it’s fun and feels good. The reason people engage in bondage, as the educators calmly explain, is that it’s fun. (And they also convey that you shouldn’t do it if it’s not fun for you.) While Rose and her audience may be appalled at the idea that anyone would mention, much less to teenagers, that sex is supposed to be fun, that’s actually a very important message for young people to get. Knowing that sex is supposed to be pleasurable is, especially for girls, an important part of learning how to set boundaries and respect other people’s boundaries. Don’t do it or feel you have to do if unless everyone is having fun is a critical part of learning what sexual consent is and what it looks like. (Fun. It looks like fun.) Pleasure is a good thing in itself, but understanding it is an important weapon in the war against actual sexual assault. If your teenager is sexually active, you better hope they know that it’s supposed to be fun, because not knowing that opens the door for all sorts of pain and heartache.

Robin Marty, writing for Cosmo, shows how this increasingly bold and blatant anti-sex message is looking when it comes to anti-choice street protesters. A new Planned Parenthood in Richfield, Minnesota—a suburb of Minneapolis—has opened and is expected to help many residents who need affordable family planning services, especially since it’s available by public transit. The clinic does not offer abortion. Repeat: The clinic does not offer abortion.

But Pro-Life Action Ministries, which is apparently determined to erase any lingering hope that “pro-life” has anything to do with life and not sex, is throwing a major fit. “Two weeks after that, anti-abortion activists claim to have hung nearly 14,000 leaflets on doors throughout the neighborhood, urging residents to avoid the new Planned Parenthood, which they say offers ‘dangerous contraception,’ ‘promotes and encourages sex without limits,’ and is ‘destroying families,’” Marty writes. They ask people instead to go to a church center called the Sagrada Familia Services that explicitly opposes contraception with the usual anti-choice blather about how sex is only for marriage and sex should only happen if you’re “open to new life.”

As Marty notes, there have been anti-contraception protests and actions against clinics, but, “However, the multi-tactic, multi-level daily campaign being waged against just one clinic such as PLAM is doing is a new and unusual escalation.” Groups like the American Life League, however, have started to encourage more anti-contraception actions. Sometimes they offer disingenuous arguments equating contraception and abortion, but more and more often we’re just seeing them admit what should be screamingly obvious: They oppose contraception—and have always opposed abortion—because they object to people having sex for fun. There’s a bunch of reasons for this, from just basic prudery to hostility to women’s growing independence to plain old misery-loves-company sniping. But that this is about sex is getting harder to deny by the day.

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  • fiona64

    Liar Rose is a publicity hound; no more, no less. Her worshippers are undereducated sheep.

    • StealthGaytheist

      Publicity hound and professional liar– like the majority of antichoicers.

      • DonnaDiva

        The majority of professional anti-choicers are glib and polished, The amateurs, OTOH, can’t help but reveal their true nasty colors almost immediately.

    • DonnaDiva

      A grown ass woman pretending to be a teenager. I’d say she’s just embarrassing herself but she has suckered gullible journalists more than once with her gotcha videos.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I’ve read that Liar Rose thinks she’s going to be an actress one day, despite her complete lack of talent.

        • lady_black

          She’s already an actress. She’s pretending to be a human being and fooling a lot of people into believing she is.

        • Ella Warnock

          Huh, that despite nothing compelling or charismatic about her. Well, good luck with that, I guess.

      • prolifemama

        It’s not just journalists she’s ‘suckered’ but professional folk too, and in person, by her tactis. She’s utilizing her youthful appearance to catch PP employees in illegal acts, like pooh-poohing statutory rape and encouraging its coverup. Regardless of her tactics, she reveals – on video, no less!! – that PP folks are breaking the law by protecting rapists from prosecution.
        How do you pro-aborts defend PP on this one?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Actually, she’s not all that convincing–she may ‘aspire’ all she likes, but an actress she will never be. And like her fellow grifter James O’Keefe, she doesn’t appear to have accomplished much with her misleading and heavily edited videos.

          • prolifemama

            She’s convincing enough to fool PP receptionists and abortion ‘counselors’ into revealing their disdain for the law, their lack of compassion for underage victims of rape, and their blatant lies about fetal development and abortion’s maternal risks.

            Her videos accurately expose the seamy underside of the abortion industry.

          • fiona64
          • prolifemama

            All pro-abort, liberal sources, dear fiona.
            Anything neutral? No, not CNN nor MSNBC nor ABC.

          • fiona64

            You’re such a joke. You just can’t stand it when you’re proven to be a liar — which, so far as I can tell, seems to happen at least a dozen times a day.

            Given that you never provide citations for *anything* you post, even when asked, your demands are ironic at a minimum.

            Casse-toi.

          • prolifemama

            potty mouth

          • fiona64

            When all you’ve got left is tone-policing my *French* (which I’m sure you had to look up), you have clearly lost the argument.

            Let go of your pearls before you break them.

          • prolifemama

            With you, fiona, there IS no argument, as you refuse (or are incapable of it) to rise above playground name-calling.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What a cop-out. Fiona’s made many good arguments and she’s provided numerous and excellent sources. The fact that you either refuse to read them and that you’re apparently too cowardly to engage in the honest debate you claimed to want is your problem. Not ours.

          • fiona64

            You’re a joke.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you ever show any sources? Any at all?

          • fiona64

            The only source she has is her arse, and (IMO) she shows that pretty regularly.

          • prolifemama

            and your opinion is so very humble.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Fiona actually reads other people’s responses. She provides sources and facts.

            Prove that you’ve ever done the same. You can’t.

          • dudebro

            Fiona was awesome sauce, posting that citation about maternal depletion

            I have provided proLIEmama with numerous citations regarding genomic imprinting and pregnancy – big surprise, she never read them. (Genomic imprinting = the prenate will suck the woman dry to ensure its own survival).

          • dudebro
          • prolifemama

            would you accept any of my sources?

          • prolifemama

            Jennifer, please tell me what you’ve asked me to prove – I’ve said a lot of things for which you’ve asked proof. Pick one, and I’ll try to give you the proof you ask.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Prove that you ever intended to come here for honest debate. Can you prove that? Somehow I don’t think that you can.

          • fiona64

            Of course she hasn’t. She’s been a dishonest actor from Day 1. She just wants Martyr Points for when she goes back to LieSiteSpews and whines to Calvin Freakburger and Liar Rose about how mean we all are … and how I swear at her in French.

            Boo-hoo.

          • dudebro

            Shan was really classy over at LAN, and all Calvin could do was insult her and accuse her of being a vile hateful troll type.

            He just has to play the victim card.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, everyone picks on poor little Calvin.

          • fiona64

            How about if we start with your claim that CPCs have medical personnel on staff? We asked you for citations two weeks ago and you haven’t bothered to reply.

            Of course, that’s probably because it’s a lie. Otherwise, why would CPCs object to putting up signage that says whether or not it’s the case? http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2014/01/anti-abortion_crisis_pregnancy_center_lawsuit_chris_slattery_evergreen_association_new_york.php

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I second what Fiona asks for. Prove that CPCs have Doctors and other medical personnel on staff.

          • fiona64

            PS: Thanks for admitting that you haven’t bothered to provide any sources, ever …

          • prolifemama

            Would any of you ever accept any sources or citations I might provide? Ever??

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t know. You’ve never even tried. And you certainly never look at the sources that we provide.

          • prolifemama

            I read every source you all present, and they’re all the same proabort propaganda.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, you haven’t. In fact, I doubt that you even read most of our posts because you ask the same questions even after we’ve already answered. Your debating style is non-existent because you didn’t come here to listen, debate or even engage in dialog. You came here to proselytize.

          • prolifemama

            It appears it’s my word against yours.
            My questions are attempts to get you to think outside the pro-abort box, to look at the issue from the prolife side, without suspicion or accusations about prolifers’ motives.
            For instance, do you truly believe that prolifers want to control women?

          • Jennifer Starr

            For instance, do you truly believe that prolifers want to control women?

            Every single one? No. All people are different, and they have different motives. But some? Oh, yeah. We’ve had quite a few of them on this board.

          • prolifemama

            Jennifer, I forgot to tell you that I appreciated your comments in this post. Thank you for saying that you don’t think all prolifers have as their single motive the control of women.
            Do you have a similar question regarding my opinion/beliefs about prochoice folk?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No that’s never really been a question I’ve had. I’ve been on both sides and you can’t assign a single motive to absolutely everyone–everybody is different.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you do realize that your questions aren’t exactly new or original, right? We’ve heard all about a zillion times before–or even asked them ourselves at some point. But after you get an answer, it’s rather silly to ask the same question a second time. Agreed?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am PRO LIFE. To be PRO LIFE you must be pro women. I trust women.

            ILLEGAL ABORTION and CHILDBIRTH (sepsis and hemmorhage) are the three leading causes of maternal death worldwide.

            Being PRO LIFE is being PRO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH for women. And being pro health for women means supporting the full range of assistance the medical profession has to offer.

            YOU are not PRO LIFE. You are PRO FORCED BIRTH and anti women’s health. YOU ARE PRO DEATH.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And incidentally? Saying that you’re trying to get us to think outside the box is just a roundabout way of saying that you’re trying to proselytize to us. For example, if I ask you a question it will be because I’m genuinely interested in knowing your response. Not because I’m looking at you as my summer conversion project.

            That’s what I mean by a dishonest debating style. .

          • prolifemama

            Not at all. I am genuinely attempting to get you to dial down your inflammatory rhetoric, trying to see if we can find some common ground, common terminology.
            Yelling at one another, making accusations, pronouncing sentence – all these are nonproductive. If in your opinion I am guilty of this, please point it out in quotes from my posts. I’m quite willing to admit that I’ve done something I’ve accused others of doing.

          • Jennifer Starr

            My inflammatory rhetoric? Where?

          • prolifemama

            Let’s each go find each others’ quotes! :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Honestly, is there a point? I mean, really–is there? You never talk to us, and you certainly never listen to what we say. Instead you talk at us, you preach to us but you never give substantive replies to any of our questions or statements. This is just more proselytizing.

          • Arekushieru

            The only one posting inflammatory rhetoric is YOU. You’re also the only one who can’t think outside of your religious fanatical cultish box.

          • fiona64

            My questions are attempts to get you to think outside the pro-abort box, to look at the issue from the prolife side, without suspicion or accusations about prolifers’ motives.

            And you lie yet again.

            Jennifer and I have both already told you that we used to be anti-choice, That’s why we know how stupid your arguments are; we used them, until we grew up and got into RealityLand.

            Your motivation is to punish women for having non-procreative sex. Nothing more, nothing less.

            Your secondary motivation is to gain Martyr Points for when you crawl back to LieSiteSpews to talk about how mean we all are for not buying your bullshit.

          • Arekushieru

            Does denying women the same rights as everyone else constitute controlling women? I would say that in Reality Land it does.

            BTW, JAMA is not a Pro-Choice blog let alone a ‘pro-abort’ one. It is a medical, peer-reviewed journal. If you want us to accept such from YOU, you have to admit that these are not biased, either. Medically accurate, peer-reviewed journals preclude being biased, after all. Oops.

          • conversate

            No you don’t. You are lying. And scientifically accurate, peer reviewed evidence from non biased sources is not proabort propaganda.

            Its not nice to lie. And you know it.

          • fiona64

            I read every source you all present, and they’re all the same proabort propaganda.

            Liar. By your own *admission,* you never click on a link provided by a pro-choice/progressive poster.

          • conversate

            dudebro’s links had cooties!

          • prolifemama

            Will you please provide a quote from the post in which I allegedly stated this?

          • fiona64

            “I would never click on a link that you provide,” in response to Dudebro. That was a tacit admission that you have never looked at ANY of our links. Remember, Dudebro asked you whether links from the pro-choice have cooties or something.

            You’re welcome.

          • conversate

            Read this, about the dangers of pregnancy and childbirth, and then explain, in detail how this scientific study is ‘proabort propaganda”

            http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/28/1205282109.full.pdf

            If you can’t do it, we can only assume that you are in fact being dishonest with us, which would be very disheartening, as you came here promising us that you were interested in honest, intellectual debate.

          • fiona64

            Cough some up for a change, and we’ll let you know.

          • MsCongeniality

            I would read reputable sources. Medical journals, mainstream news outlets. Don’t bother me with right wing propaganda, though.

          • prolifemama

            There are conservative prolife doctors, though, Ms.C. Would you be willing to read such a one’s medical papers with an open mind?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Are any of them in legitimate medical journals? Or are you going to tell us that the journals are ‘pro-abort’ too–like you do with any source you don’t like?

          • prolifemama

            Jennifer, while assuming my prejudice, you reveal your own.
            In your opinion, what constitutes a “legitimate” medical journal source?

          • Jennifer Starr

            A legitimate medical journal? Any one of these would probably suffice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_journals

          • fiona64

            She’s not assuming anything, you twit. You’ve repeatedly dismissed data from the CDC, WHO, JAMA, controlled studies, and the MSM as “pro-abort propaganda.”

            Stop being deliberately disingenuous. We can all see through your phoniness.

          • fiona64
          • MsCongeniality

            LOL, you’ll never be swayed by any evidence presented. You’re in a cult, and you’re in deep.

          • conversate

            Does the thought of torturing a rape victim get you moist, sweetie?

            http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/08/18/catholic-barbarity-in-europe/

            Kevin Doran, Bishop of Elphin, saw went public with his opinion that the woman should have been forced to stay pregnant for longer:

            [Doran] said the church has always taken the view that legislation “certainly doesn’t resolve the concerns”.

            “You are creating greater risks for the child by terminating pregnancy at an early stage,” he said.

            He also said: “I don’t think that anybody has established the right of a mother to terminate the pregnancy because she feels that she’s at risk of suicide”.

            The Bishop described the early delivery of the baby as “not without its difficulties” and “simply not a healthy option” given that the normal period of pregnancy is somewhere around 38 – 40 weeks.

            He said to terminate the pregnancy at 24 weeks with a caesarean “places the child more seriously at risk”.

            The Bishop questioned what assistance the State provided the woman with her psychiatric problems.

            He said he has seen “nothing to suggest that there is a good reason why” the pregnancy could not have progressed to full term.

            Indeed; the good Bishop has no problems with having the woman strapped down for another 11 weeks or so, force-fed while the fetus gets older.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, they really don’t. Which is why much hasn’t come out of them.

          • Arekushieru

            If abortion is an industry, then the adoption and pregnancy syndicates are even MORE of an industry, specifically meaning CPCs, here, since pregnancy IS and always WILL be more lucrative than abortion.

            You mean countering the LIES of the anti-choice movement about fetal development and PREGNANCY’s maternal risks? Fixed that, for ya!

            Lack of compassion is NOT forcing young women to report their rapes so that they will have to face FURTHER stigmatization and shame, ESPECIALLY from your ilk, but also from law enforcement officials and sometimes their own families, friends and communities? WOW. Up is down and down IS up with you people, eh?

        • fiona64

          She’s utilizing her youthful appearance to catch PP employees in illegal
          acts, like pooh-poohing statutory rape and encouraging its coverup.

          Bullshit.

          • prolifemama

            Go on, fiona — and what’s been the result?

          • fiona64

            My dear Lady Disdain! Is it possible that you are still living? /Benedick

            The result has been that nothing Liar Rose has ever claimed is actually, you know, *true.*

            But you know that.

          • prolifemama

            No dear, you claim that. Name one or more of her claims and I’ll try to back it up. Fair enough?

          • fiona64

            97K sources back ME up, sweetie-pie. They’ve already been provided. I’m not doing your homework for you. If YOU can prove any of her claims with non-anti-choice sources, you rock on.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not much to write home about.

        • DonnaDiva

          Well, this article is about Rose pretending to be 15 so she could ask the PP person questions about sex, which she answered to the best of her knowledge. Nothing about “saving babies” there. As for PP not reporting sexual assaults before providing abortion care, I can understand where they’re coming from. Sexual assault victims are treated like shit by law enforcement in general and pregnant ones might have their abortions delayed or prevented by cops and prosecutors who share Lila Rose’s mentality.

        • matilda9

          Nobody is pro-abort, but that’s really cute.

          • prolifemama

            But yes, dear Matilda – many people are.

            If someone has no objection to abortions being done, and will support the legal right to have abortions, then they can accurately be termed pro-abortion.

            And no, there’s nothing really “cute” about it…

          • dudebro

            I don’t think adultery should be illegal. Doesn’t mean I am pro-adultery.

          • prolifemama

            Sure it does. If you think it’s okay for it to happen, you’re pro-adultery.

            The old, weak “I’d never do it myself, blah blah blah” stance is no stance at all.

          • dudebro

            No, it really does not.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, it really doesn’t. Saying that it would be a waste of police resources, taxpayer money and court time to prosecute and gather evidence of a man or woman cheating when there actual crimes happening does not make you pro-adultery. To claim that is stupid.

          • dudebro

            Well, prolifemama is stupid.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s like a three-way bulb set permanently on dim.

          • prolifemama

            brilliant, dude. brilliant.

          • dudebro

            Not brilliant. You flatter me :)

            It’s FACTUAL.

          • prolifemama

            sarcasm (n.)
            The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

          • dudebro

            I concur.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Something that you’re not terribly good at?

          • fiona64

            I’ll take “something AntiChoiceMama doesn’t understand” for $1000, Alex.

          • prolifemama

            dudebro didn’t say why he wanted adultery to be legal, he just said he wanted it to be legal.

            That’s being pro-something-being legal. That’s being pro-whatever; in this case, pro-adultery. The reasons don’t matter.

            He doesn’t even have to commit adultery himself, just defend others’ committing adultery, to be pro-adultery.

          • dudebro

            Do you want adultery to be illegal?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t think adultery should be illegal.

            That is an exact quote from dudebro’s post. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

          • prolifemama

            Not as severe as yours, apparently.

          • ansuz

            Note that there is a difference between legalization and decriminalization.

          • dudebro

            That would be clever coming from someone who didn’t sound like a dumbshit.

          • prolifemama

            Such excoriating rebuttals.

          • dudebro

            I concur.

          • prolifemama

            Sorry. I’ll dial it down.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I understood it better than you did. Apparently.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you think that adultery should be a criminal offense?

          • fiona64

            I suggest you pick up a copy of “Hooked on Phonics,” or get bifocals … since what was said was I don’t think adultery should be illegal (emphasis added),

          • Arekushieru

            Dudebro is not a ‘he’. The very NAME suggests that. So please stop misgendering.

          • prolifemama

            Was your username once dudebro? Or are you stealing his inane material now?

          • conversate

            I’m Jennifer Starr.

          • fiona64

            I am Spartacus.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s called changing handles. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize it’s the same account.

          • conversate

            Simon doesn’t know that it’s me. After I freaking gave every indication that it was. I’m not gonna tell him.

          • ansuz

            I’m now internet-shopping for a meat grinder. I would not have expected that.

          • conversate

            Kitties are an evil influence.

          • ansuz

            Teh eevolz. *nods*

            Honestly, I’m not sure I have the energy to do all of the food. I mean, I suck at food generally, and have a difficult time with day-to-day living. And I know that that’s what the cat’s supposed to be helping me with, but it’s going to be hard.

          • conversate

            I feed mine Royal Canin dental food and a tablespoon of Presidents Choice wet cat food every day.

            This is a healthy diet and very low maintenance. Do what I do and you and kitty will be fine

          • conversate
          • ansuz

            D’aw.
            And it’s good to hear about lower-effort cat diets. I’ll probably still buy the meat grinder, but it’ll be for when I feel up to using it.
            And I’m trying to convince myself that I don’t have to be perfect at looking after the kitty right away, but my brain chemistry sucks and I don’t have much to stress out about at the moment, so.

            And that site is great. I’m really happy about the litter box recommendations and explanations. I’m going to need at least one covered box (because the only place to put a litter box on top floor of my parents’ house is in my closet), but the cleaning schedule seems pretty doable, especially as I’m going to have help at the beginning.

          • conversate

            I have been using the crystal cat litter for a few years now and it’s really good

            http://www.petco.com/product/107848/Petco-Crystal-Cat-Litter.aspx

            Other cat litters just stink and hold in all the odors. This absorbs all of the moisture, which then sinks to the bottom. So it might smell for an hour after she has a poo, but then it’s good to go as the poos are dried out.

          • fiona64

            Someone is not the sharpest tool in the shed, that’s for sure …

          • Jennifer Starr

            And we can term you anti-choice.

          • prolifemama

            You can call us anything you like.

            But truth is truth, and the truth is that prolifers aren’t against choice. We’re against abortion, and any other method of killing innocent human beings.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, you’re against choice. That’s what you’re against. And that is the truth.

          • prolifemama

            Ah, Jennifer, now I understand. To you, the words “choice” and “abortion” are synonymous.

            So, the only choice you’d suggest to an unintentionally pregnant woman is abortion?

          • dudebro

            Nope.

            Jennifer would say “its up to you, do what makes you happy”

            As would everyone here.

            You would force her to give birth, even if it killed her.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, the only thing YOU would suggest, however, to an unintentionally pregnant woman is to give birth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve answered that question already, if you’d ever bothered to read my replies. Which we all know you haven’t.

            And what would be the only choice you’d offer a child CF patient in need of a heart/lung transplant? Oh that’s right–you’d just offer her death. We’re all clear now.

          • fiona64

            I sometimes wish I’d sworn a little less in my response to her assertion that organ transplants were immoral. She’s a disgusting, heartless, anti-choice *thing* that I’m beginning to think is sub-human. Seriously.

          • dudebro

            Even animals have more empathy than her. She’s just a garden variety sociopath.

          • fiona64

            Yep. I was going to call her an animal, but animals have souls.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It just really burns me up–and I wondered if she’s ever considered that all the fear-mongering and half-truths being pushed by quacks like Paul Byrne and herself actually can lead to the deaths of many born people, including children.

            And then I remember that since they’re born she probably can’t even be bothered to give a crap.

          • dudebro

            Because morality, in her fantasy world, = obedience to god. And whatever god wants is good, even if people die.

          • dudebro
          • ansuz

            Holy fuck, that’s terrifying. If I became pregnant there, I’d be dead*. I couldn’t make it through all that bureaucratic shit.

            *except not really, because my parents have money.

          • conversate

            Poor women’s lives don’t have value anyway? So, if they die, be it from coerced suicide or childbirth, is it any loss?

            /snark

          • ansuz
          • conversate
          • conversate

            BTW if you are getting a kitty, bookmark this site. I found it last night and boy is it helpful

            http://www.catinfo.org/

          • ansuz

            *bookmarked*

          • conversate

            hey, you’re a vegan

            should, theoretically, someone who kills a cow be charged with 1st degree murder?

          • ansuz

            Nope. Possibly animal cruelty if they cause more pain than necessary, but I don’t think that just killing most animals should be illegal.

          • conversate

            yeah I am having an *interesting* discussion with a guy on Mother Jones magazine who has stated that:

            1) all taxation is theft

            2) 1st degree murder for killing anything sentient – fetuses and cows

            3) he seems to think that if a fetus has sentience it must also have awareness, and if a fetus is aware, it can suffer

            /boggle

          • ansuz

            Some of those things almost make sense (e.g., Crommunist has an article entitled ‘taxation is theft, but so what?’), but the things that the person suggests doing with those abstract statements are totally impractical and weird.

          • conversate

            Yeah, the problem is we don’t live in a vacuum. And what is the alternative? Everyone independently set up their own fiefdom?

          • conversate

            I see that you’ve weighed in over on SPL regarding Simon’s ‘moral duty’ argument. He thinks he has a slum dunk here…

            Basically, we have a’ moral duty’ to care for those we place in ‘situational existential dependency’.

            So, for example…

            If you throw someone in freezing water
            Infect them with HIV
            Kidnap the violinist and make him dependent on you for survival
            Take a baby to a desert island without bottled milk
            Drug a man into raping you, and then kill him in self-defense

            You then *owe* that person your body in order to sustain it’s life, even IF it will adversely affect your health. You cannot use ‘but my health’ as a get out of jail free card if you purposely put someone into a state of need. However, he acknowledges that in abortion, a woman still has the right to abort – however, if she does abort, she has failed in her ‘duty of care’ and must serve a jail sentence for her crime. He has suggested that women and men refrain from vaginal sex entirely if they do not want to put an innocent moral being in a state of need. Sex is the *ultimate* cause of the neediness that the ZEF find itself in, according to him. However, he assures us, he is NOT anti-sex, and NOT into punishing women for having sex, since after all, he won’t be punishing her if she carries the pregnancy to term or miscarries.

            I basically went through a list of the problems associated with ‘sex creates a needy individual’ mainly that uh, since he is framing ‘creating a need’ as some sort of harm, that miscarriages etc will all HAVE to be investigated as crimes, and that if repeat ‘offenders’ keep offending they should be sterilized.

            He accused *me* of engaging in moral absurdities.

            WTF

          • Jennifer Starr

            How old is this guy–seriously? Those are some bizarre meanderings there.

          • conversate

            This is his thesis and he has been working on these ideas since 2009.

            He refused to talk to Plum because apparently she did not have a “university education”.

            He also accused me and Tim Griffy of being dumbasses because we pointed out the absurdities in his arguments.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If this is his thesis, it’s a very poor one–there are holes that you can literally drive trucks through.

          • Arekushieru

            One problem, if you equate ‘creating a need’ with ‘some sort of harm’, if you continue it, you are essentially continuing the crime with which you have been charged. Again, no logic has ANTIS!

          • matilda9

            Swearing is a very appropriate reaction in the absence of being able to punch her in her hateful mouth.

          • fiona64

            The only reason I wish it is that it would still be up, because I quoted some of her more vile remarks in it.

          • Arekushieru

            So, uterus donation must be immoral. Logic. Antis have none.

          • fiona64

            Stop with the unadulterated *bullshit.* You know perfectly well that you are putting up a straw man now, trying to play “gotcha games” with Jennifer by misrepresenting her position.

            Shut the fuck up. Seriously.

          • dudebro

            Argument by misquotation is the last ditch effort of people who have no argument.

          • fiona64

            She decided to tone police my *French,* FFS. This woman is out of her league.

          • fiona64

            You wouldn’t know truth if it slapped you in your lying face.

          • prolifemama

            such violence.

          • fiona64

            Violence is what you anti-choicers love most, what with supporting the murder of physicians and the death of pregnant women like Savita Halapannavar.

          • prolifemama

            I’m evidently more acquainted – and comfortable – with truth than are you, dear fiona.

            It doesn’t take a slap in the face for me to recognize it when I see it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            When have you ever spoken the truth on these boards?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Her very first lie? I am a nice person who has had a great deal of experience debating this issue. Twatwaffle does not read successfully much less ‘debate.’

          • fiona64

            Nope, you aren’t. What you are comfortable with is a big bunch of lies, such as those you keep peddling here.

          • matilda9

            Do you really have yourself convinced of your own bullehit?

          • MsCongeniality

            I thought babies were born with original sin. That’s not innocent.

          • Arekushieru

            I have no objection to pregnancies being done, and will support the legal right to continue a pregnancy, therefore I can accurately be termed pro-pregnancy. Do you see how your ‘logic’ fails YET?

          • matilda9

            As you sit in your imaginary aura of moral superiority and call people “dear” and pronounce your righteousness, your arrogance has caused you to make the mistake of assuming that you really are dealing with inferior beings who can see you for exactly what you are. A fraud. Thinking embryos are as important as a two year old doesn’t make you good person.
            I have no doubt that many of those people down at the border screaming and spitting at buses of children with their faces twisted with anger are also big fans of embryos. Just not those diseased criminals that should immediately dropped in the middle of the desert south of the border.

          • prolifemama

            “Important”? You gonna crack on their passe’ shoes and out-of-date lunchboxes next?

            Any embryo has a fundamental connection with her two-year old sibling – discernable human DNA in every one of their 46-chromosome cells. The two-year-old once was an embryo; she didn’t “come from” an embryo, not was the embryo swapped out at some point for an older version.

            Read a human biology text. Talk with an embryologist, even a pro-abort one. Learn and talk science, not your pathetic prejudice and archaic condemnatory judgment.

          • fiona64

            What’s that I smell?

            Oh. Desperation. Quelle surprise.

          • MsCongeniality

            This is a very remedial understanding of the situation. Pro Choice also means the choice to take a pregnancy to term.

            You see women as chattel, and that’s sad. But don’t expect us to accept your views.

    • KristenfromMA

      She is more than that: she’s a sociopath.

      • matilda9

        Yes Kristen, that is exactly what she is. We girls from MA call things as we see ‘em.

        • prolifemama

          Kristen, Matilda – from where did you receive your psychology degrees?

          • fiona64

            Sociopaths never recognize themselves as ill.

            Are you now going to pretend that YOU have a degree in *anything,* other than being a meddling busybody?

          • matilda9

            School of real life. That’s why I see you for the poisonous little phony you are.

    • prolifemama

      fiona, is name-calling all you can think of to do? Your obvious objection to prolife activists would carry more authority if instead of smearing prolife beliefs, or making vicious accusations, you’d try forming a substantive argument on each point brought up.

      • dudebro

        You passively aggressively attack people, then once the insults come rolling in, you claim victim status and victory.

        BTW it has not been lost on everyone here that you ignore substantive PC arguments and pretend that citations don’t exist.

        You are as dishonest as the day is long.

        • matilda9

          What a fucking clown. Speaking for God to all you abortion loving adulterers.

      • Jennifer Starr

        It’s pretty clear that she is, in fact,a publicity hound.

      • fiona64

        Oh, shut the fuck up.

      • matilda9

        Nobody on earth believes that you are victims in any way. Mind your business and nobody will be mean to you.

  • kellymitch

    So many mixed up things in here. While I do agree unless contraceptive choices such as the Pill or an IUD are available over the counter, then they have to be covered by insurance. When you can walk into any store and buy them, just like condoms, then they don’t need to be covered. However, comparing that to the hundreds of thousands of abortions that are encouraged at planned parenthood every year, well, that’s just a completely different argument. If they have a clinic that does NOT offer abortion, then bravo to them. Maybe they are going to start doing what they say, in helping with family planning and cancer screening for those that are underserved.

    • fiona64

      You are so full of crap. PP does not “encourage” abortion. In fact, it constitutes less than 3 percent of PP’s services. But hey, don’t let facts or reality get in the way of your anti-choice ignorance.

      • kellymitch

        Sure…and they give out awards for clinics for offering the most abortions….naw, that was just made up. Go read their annual report some time. Although it may only be “3%” of what they do, it’s still over 330,000 abortions a year. And, sorry, each “service” doesn’t weigh the same. I don’t equate one abortion with one “handed out condoms”.

        • dudebro

          citations needed

        • Kathi J

          That was a photoshopped piece of garbage that any one with half an eye could see was nonsense. Are you really that gullible?

          • dudebro

            She’s pro-life yo.

          • kellymitch
          • fiona64

            Abby Johnson? Really?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            That skank doesn’t know how to open her mouth without a lie coming out.

            (Yes, sweetie, that’s fake.)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, that is fake. That’s why no reliable news sources will even touch it.

          • Kathi J

            Absolutely it is fake. Did you even read the article? Nothing LifeSite news prints is news or real.

          • kellymitch

            That happened to be the site I took it off of. It was on many, many news sites. I don’t know the original post for it, but it seems to me PP would have said something to disclaim it. Nobody has said it isn’t true, and several articles have quoted PP as saying it is one of their awards, although they do not have quotas.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It was not on any news sites. Not any reputable ones.

          • goatini

            It was on ZERO news sites.

          • prolifemama

            Jennifer, goatini – it wasn’t on any liberal, pro-abortion news sites or broadcast news programs.
            You’re 100% correct on that one.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It wasn’t on any real news sites, period. Not even on Fox News.

          • fiona64

            it wasn’t on ANY news sites, including Faux News … because it’s a fake created by your Saint Scabby Johnson.

          • goatini

            //liberal, pro-abortion news sites or broadcast news programs//

            Name these alleged sites and programs. There hasn’t been a “liberal” press since Watergate ended, and you’re, as usual, full of lying BS.

          • lady_black

            There are two links in that article. One goes to another lifenews.com blog, and the other one goes to a PP press release where they deny having quotas, and do not claim that the “certificate” pictured on your site was issued by PP.

          • fiona64

            Wow. Debunked by her own stupid, anti-choice source.

        • lady_black

          Yeah I think each service they perform DOES weigh equally, and if anything, the services they provide that prevent unwanted pregnancies weigh more than those that terminate them. You get a lot more bang for your buck with contraceptives than abortions. And NO, they do NOT give awards for which clinic does the most abortions. Most Planned Parenthoods do ZERO abortions.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          And not one of those abortions is any of your business. Mind your own genitals and get your mind off mine.

        • fiona64

          they give out awards for clinics for offering the most abortions.

          Not to put too fine a point on it, but bullshit.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sounds like the crap made up by Scabby Johnson. I’m betting that’s where she got it from.

          • kellymitch
          • Jennifer Starr

            Still not a reliable source no matter how many times you copy/paste it.

          • fiona64

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • goatini

            News flash: Everything Scabby Johnson says and does are complete and utter falsehoods.

          • fiona64

            That’s exactly where she got it from. Look at her LieSiteNews link.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I looked. I’m almost willing to bet that Scabby printed that out on her computer and took a photo of it.

          • lady_black

            SOMEBODY printed out on their computer, using a piece of stolen cheap-assed letterhead.

          • kellymitch
          • Jennifer Starr

            Not exactly a reliable source.

          • kellymitch

            http://clinicquotes.com/planned-parenthood-gives-award-to-clinic-for-increasing-abortions/
            It’s on about a million different websites. Not one that I found says it’s fake.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope. Sarah Terzo doesn’t count as reliable either. Any hard news sources? BBC, CNN, NBC–etc. Do you have anything that’s unbiased? I’m betting that you don’t.

          • fiona64

            You know, just for giggles I thought I’d check CNN and BBC. And guess what? Not a peep about this alleged scandal — which would be very big news indeed … if it were true.

            In fact, the only place you can find it is on anti-choice blogs. Quelle surprise.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Even Faux News didn’t cover it.

          • dudebro

            Sarah Terzo posts on SPL every now and again. Has always given me the creeps.

          • kellymitch

            Can you provide anything that says it was fake? I mean, it was all over the news/Internet among many many sources. Where has PP denied it??

          • Jennifer Starr

            So that’s your way of telling me you don’t have anything from a non-biased news source.

          • goatini

            Never on ANY news sources at all.

          • prolifemama

            Good point, kellymitch.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I can see you have about as much knowledge of journalism as Kelly does, which is none.

          • lady_black

            I’d even settle for Al-Jazeera, or a reputable foreign press release.

          • fiona64

            Do you have any mainstream sources for this, or just anti-choice sites? You would think that this would be big news in the media … if it were true, of course.

          • kellymitch

            Like I said, it was headlines for quite a while on the news. I could paste about 100 here. Show me one. ONE, that says it is not true.

          • Jennifer Starr

            On what news? The Today Show? Good Morning America? New York Times? Washington Post? USA Today? Where? Surely if it’s real you can find one of these sources.

          • kellymitch

            Sure, it’s on all the right wing media sites. Don’t you think it’s odd that they quote Planned Parenthood as saying it IS one of their awards, yet NOBODY is saying it’s false or denying it? PP hasn’t denied it anywhere either. Surely, there are some pro choice/left wing outlets that would clear this up? No? Especially since they quote PP as saying IT IS one of their awards? No?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why would they even bother debunkiing such an obviously false and ridiculous story? It’s a joke to anyone with half a brain, which you don’t seem to possess. Even Faux News doesn’t appear to have covered it. Give me a real, unbiased news source, Kelly, because at the moment you don’t have anything but a fake piece of paper and an unproven quote.

          • goatini

            If you make up some utterly ludicrous garbage about, let’s say, ME, I’m not even going to give you the time of day by denying something utterly ludicrous.

          • prolifemama

            Silence on the accused’s part implies guilt, and lack of credible defense.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m giving you same advice I gave Kelly. Don’t ever go into journalism or law because you’d suck at both. Just like you suck at counseling.

          • fiona64

            Only on Planet Dumbass, which appears to be where you live …

          • goatini

            Let me guess: you also think the President of the United States is “Kenyan”, right?

          • prolifemama

            That particular accused hasn’t exactly been silent on this question…

          • Jennifer Starr

            In my opinion, an assertion made by a racist loony (which is every single birther) doesn’t even deserve a defense or a response.

          • goatini

            That psychotic, lying BS never should have been dignified by one iota of, ahem, “credible defense”. No thanks to vile racist pigs like you calling our President “that particular accused”.

          • fiona64

            Oh. My. God. You really *do* believe he’s Kenyan, don’t you?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • fiona64

            Sure, it’s on all the right wing media sites.

            Why am I reminded of Sarah Palin saying that she read all of the newspapers?

            Not even FOX covered this … and, given their bent, if it were a true story they would have been all over it like stink on feces.

          • kellymitch
          • fiona64

            Once again, you demonstrate that your reading comprehension is not all it could be … because that article does not say what you think it does.

            I understand that some people with your problem are helped by a game called Hooked on Phonics. Perhaps you should investigate that.

          • kellymitch

            “So, no, we don’t have quotas. And, yes, we absolutely do celebrate our progress in ensuring that more people have access to the full range of reproductive health care, including abortion. And we always will”
            This was regarding the certificate. Please, explain to me what I am not getting. You all said find a reliable source. I did. Now I don’t understand that reliable source’s statements. Yep…..typical liberal head hiding. Please, explain it to me. I’m dying to be enlightened.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Even with a light bulb you wouldn’t be enlightened.

          • kellymitch

            Ah yes….the old “you wouldn’t understand” argument of why you can’t explain it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve already explained it. Several times now.

          • fiona64

            You can explain it all day to that one, but you cannot understand it for her.

          • lady_black

            You are a 4 watt night light bulb in a halogen headlamp world. You have had it explained to you numerous times, with exact quotes from Planned Parenthood which do not even come close to acknowledging that Scabby Johnson’s (ahem) ‘masterful forgery’ is genuine. A fact that anyone who has more than minimum experience with paper can see for themselves just by looking at how poorly and unprofessionally done the document in question is. I can only conclude that there is something wrong with you. Just like when you questioned why a closed clinic only offers abortion referrals. You don’t pack the gear to post here. Just go away and don’t come back with any more stupidity. Thanks in advance.

          • fiona64

            What you claimed was “they give an award for the clinic with the most abortions.”

            Now you are trying to move the goalposts. Because you’ve been caught out as a liar. Not that any of us are surprised.

          • kellymitch

            Sure, that was poor wording on my part. What I should have said is they give out awards to a clinic who “exceeded abortion visits for the first half of this year compared to last year”. Really? Shouldn’t they be exceeding more prevented pregnancies than celebrating more abortions that were needed?
            And, no, I didn’t move the goal posts. The simple truth is, PP themselves said they will “continue to celebrate” this sort of thing.
            The debate came when everyone said the award was “a fake”. But I’ve proven well enough that it wasn’t, based on PPs own comments. You, my dear, are the one moving the goal posts because you didn’t like what was provided.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You haven’t proven jack shit.

          • fiona64

            You keep telling yourself that, sugarplum. I sure that you find it comforting.

            Bottom line: you got called out as a liar, and now you’re trying to tap dance around it.

          • fiona64

            What I should have said is they give out awards to a clinic who
            “exceeded abortion visits for the first half of this year compared to
            last year”.

            And it’s still a stupid, bold-faced lie. ::shrug:: But you rock on. We wouldn’t want facts to get in the way of your bullshit, after all …

          • kellymitch

            Apparently, the truth smacking you in the face isn’t working either.

          • fiona64

            I promise: as soon as you say anything true, I’ll be the first to acknowledge it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You haven’t given us any truth. Everyone else has provided you with facts repeatedly, and all you’ve given us Jack and shit. And Jack left town.

          • OldWoman

            That’s awesome! And you just proved it… “Planned Parenthood does not have quotas.” Thanks for the confirmation!

          • kellymitch

            Yep, the don’t have quotas, but they certainly celebrate the increasing numbers of them. That’s my point. We shouldn’t be celebrating the increasing numbers of abortions used as birth control.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You know that all contraception, including sterilzation, can fail, right? And unless it’s your pregnancy, you and I don’t get to judge the reasons that a woman makes this choice.

          • kellymitch

            Funny thing is, I’m not necessarily against abortion. But if birth control is available to everyone, there really shouldn’t be that many of them should there? And I certainly don’t want to be celebrating abortions.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, birth control can and does fail, even with regular use. And it’s not up to us to judge someone’s reasons for making that choice–I leave that up to the woman who is pregnant. And I do celebrate women having access to a full range of reproductive options, including abortion.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for demonstrating your woeful ignorance about yet another issue … contraception failure. All types of contraception, including surgical sterilizations, can and do fail.

            I celebrate women having access to all of the services they need. Other women’s medical decisions are none of my (or your) business.

          • fiona64

            No woman is using “abortion as birth control” outside the fevered imaginations of the anti-choice.

          • catseye

            Except maybe the female forced-birthers their own selves.
            “The Only Moral Abortion is MY Abortion.”

          • goatini

            Pull the other one. NEVER was a “headline” on the “news”.

          • Sydney

            No, it wasn’t.

          • fiona64

            You’re a fucking liar. There, I said it. If it were in “headlines for quite a while on the news,” I’d be able to find it on legitimate news sites.

          • OldWoman

            You have come to a Progressive site, spouting lies and linking to obviously biased sources only. The burden of real proof is upon you.

          • lady_black

            Someone else’s anti-choice blog? Really? Have you graduated high school yet? If you have, you surely have been educated about providing legitimate citations. You know, books written by experts, scholarly published works, government and quasi-governmental agencies, or at the very least, verified news articles written by professional journalists.

          • goatini

            NO reputable and/or credible source has qualified Scabby’s made-up nonsense. The ONLY online sources for this garbage are the radical misogynistic gestational slavery blogosphere.

          • goatini

            Scabby Johnson is a notorious liar and grifter.

        • catseye

          ONE PP clinic, in ONE HOUR of operation, PREVENTS more abortions than the whole forced-birth movement has in the whole of existence, by preventing UNWANTED PREGNANCIES.

        • matilda9

          Oh yes, I’m sure PP ‘s Annual Report proudly explains their rewards for “most abortions”!! Lol
          Are you 12?

    • Jennifer Starr

      They do have clinics that don’t offer abortion, and either way abortion is not ‘encouraged’ or pushed on someone. And abortion is a very small part of all that PP actually does.

      • kellymitch

        Go read their annual report some time. It is not a “very small” part of what they do. Well, yeah, maybe if you compare one abortion with one “handed out condoms”

        • Jennifer Starr

          I did read their annual report–that’s where I got my information.

          • fiona64

            Kelly clearly got her “information” from her backside.

        • lady_black

          Even if you compared handing out birth control pills, depo shots, IUDs, STD testing and treatment, pregnancy testing, education and referrals to abortions, it’s STILL a fraction of what they do. It happens to be a very EXPENSIVE fraction of what they do, but that’s true for any provider. Common sense tells you it costs much less to prevent abortion than it does to perform abortion after the fact. If you truly oppose abortion, you ought to be writing checks to those who offer contraceptives. Certainly you shouldn’t be picketing them.

        • fiona64

          I have read their annual report … which is more than you have done. Abortions constitute 3 percent of their services. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-at-a-glance

          • goatini

            S/he does not have the mental acuity to be able to understand an annual report, therefore s/he is making it up as s/he goes along.

        • fiona64

          Go read their annual report some time.

          You might want to do that yourself, now that you’ve admitted to not doing so.

    • DonnaDiva

      “If they have a clinic that does NOT offer abortion, then bravo to them.”

      So tell your friends to stop protesting the clinics that don’t offer abortion then, kthx.

    • John H

      PP would be ridiculously happy if they never had to perform another abortion – they are a non-profit group (and constantly underfunded to boot), and abortion procedures are some of the most expensive work they do, which means every abortion they have to fund or perform is less pregnancy counseling, prenatal/maternity service, STI screening, contraceptive consultation, etc. for a comparatively greater number of people. From a purely logistical standpoint (even if their mission wasn’t simply enabling the bodily autonomy of people with respect to reproduction), PP has no reason to encourage abortion, at least not as compared to avoiding pregnancy in the first place (in fact, those opposing birth control are functionally encouraging abortion – people who do not wish to become pregnant are unlikely to remain so if they become pregnant).

      • dudebro

        PP would be ridiculously happy if they never had to perform another
        abortion – they are a non-profit group (and constantly underfunded to
        boot), and abortion procedures are some of the most expensive work they
        do, which means every abortion they have to fund or perform is less
        pregnancy counseling, prenatal/maternity service, STI screening,
        contraceptive consultation

        Exactly. But pro-lifers want PP shut down because they are anti sex without consequences. For other people, at any rate.

        • Ella Warnock

          I wonder why they never consider that sex has *good* consequences, as well? More of that shame, blame, guilt game Dr. Ray referred to.

      • kellymitch

        What? Underfunded? They get hundreds of millions of dollars from just the federal government every year. It’s in their annual report. Then they complain when congress wants to know what they spent it on.

        • dudebro

          The abortions are not funded by the government. Those are covered by donations and by patients. Hyde amendment forbids government dollars going towards abortion.

        • fiona64

          Hey, dumbfuck? Guess what? Those funds are for things like mammograms, pap smears, etc. The Hyde Amendment precludes any Federal dollars being used for abortion.

          • kellymitch

            Hey dumbfuck yourself, I didn’t say they used the money for abortions, but lets face it, how do they keep it separate? And, Planned parenthood doesn’t provide mammograms. They provide “referrals”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            but lets face it, how do they keep it separate?

            I’m going to assume that you know next to nothing about accounting or bookkeeping.

            Dumbfuck.

          • dudebro

            but lets face it, how do they keep it separate

            It’s called hiring an accountant, dumbfuck.

          • fiona64

            You don’t know much about accounting, do you?

            And yes, dimwit, PP does provide mammography services at numerous locations. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-info/womens-health/breast-cancer-screenings

          • kellymitch

            Well, if it’s all about accounting, how come planned parenthood was never able to answer the questions posed by Congress?

          • lady_black

            That NEVER HAPPENED, my dear. Planned Parenthood has to keep two sets of books. One for federal funding (Medicaid), and another for insurance, private pay, and donations. That’s how it’s kept separate. It’s one of the most heavily monitored non-profit healthcare provider in the country, because of the Hyde amendment. Claiming PP is engaged in nefarious accounting gimmicks is like claiming a hospital that does abortions is using government money to do so because at the same hospital, your grandmother gets a Medicare paid hip replacement. It simply isn’t true, and makes no logical sense.

          • goatini

            Lie much? Oh, you’re a forced-birther, all you have is lies.

          • fiona64

            What questions are those? Citation please, so that we know what you’re talking about.

          • kellymitch

            Did you even read your own link? From you link (because, ya know, I was willing to look and see that I was wrong)

            “Planned Parenthood doctors and nurses teach patients about breast care, connect patients to resources to help them get vital biopsies, ultrasounds, and mammograms, ”
            As I said, they give out REFERRALS. They do none of that themselves.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Your doctor gives you a referral for a mammogram as well. Ditto for biopsies and ultrasounds.

          • fiona64

            Yes, dumbass … several of the facilities DO provide mammograms, in conjunction with the Susan G. Komen Foundation. The mobile unit comes to the facility. If you had actually read the link in its entirety, you would know that. PP *pays for* those services; the patients do not.

          • lady_black

            So does YOUR doctor. I have to go to a hospital, or a radiology center to obtain a mammogram. No regular doctors have the machines, and in any case, they need to be interpreted by a radiologist.

          • goatini

            Actually, they provide sliding scale low- or no-cost referrals to physicians and facilities where said equipment is located. YOUR physician gives you a referral that YOUR insurance pays for. PP gives referrals at the same proportionate cost as the services the patients receive at PP. They also have events in which mobile units are made available for patients to access sliding scale low- or no-cost referrals.

            And as far as your last BS comment goes, let me explain it to you AGAIN in very simple language that even you can understand: Had Enron’s financials been audited with just a fraction of the vigor and scrutiny with which Planned Parenthood’s financials are audited, they’d still be in business today.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Yes, some PP’s do indeed do mammograms, my daughter got one at her local PP clinic and it saved her life. They also pay for those mammograms that they refer to other places if they don’t do them themselves.
            And let me give you an example that you might understand about “keeping it separate”. Almost all religious organizations that run non-profit businesses get Federal money and that money cannot be used to promote or run their religious based operations. How do they keep the money separate? The only place is in their accounting. Should Planned Parenthood be held to any higher scrutiny than any other non-profit? Of course not. How do we, as tax payers, know that our tax money isn’t being used by the Catholic church to promote their religion? We don’t. We can only hope that their accounting practices are legal and that they do what they are supposed to do. Planned Parenthood is under stricter scrutiny, you bet your bundle that they do exactly what they are supposed to do in their accounting practices, because if they didn’t, they would have been shut down by now.

        • goatini

          Planned Parenthood gets money from the Federal government EXACTLY the same way Catholic hospitals get money from the Federal government – reimbursement for care and services for Medicare/Medicaid patients.

          As far as your last BS comment goes, let me explain it to you in very simple language that even you can understand: Had Enron’s financials been audited with just a fraction of the vigor and scrutiny with which Planned Parenthood’s financials are audited, they’d still be in business today.

      • kellymitch
        • fiona64

          Spamming the same bullshit doesn’t magically make it true.

          • dudebro
          • kellymitch

            I answered several people with the same link. Find me something that says it’s not true. I couldn’t.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Find a non-biased news source that says it is.

          • dudebro

            Hey dumbfuck, I can easily photoshop something and put it up on an obscure website, and if you can’t prove me wrong I can then claim that it’s true.

            For example, unicorns and cats mated to produce unicorn-fatty-cats. i bet you can’t prove that unicorn-fatty-cats don’t exist!

          • catseye

            Wonder if they’ll have unicorn-fatty-cats at the next TICA (The International Cat Ass’n.) show. I’d sure like to see one. /snark

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not up to us to disprove your story. It’s up to you to prove it.

          • kellymitch

            And, how would you like me to “prove” it other than you don’t like the sources it came from?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Real sources. Which a real story would have and you can’t find. So it’s pretty much the end of this, isn’t it?

          • kellymitch

            Sure, since you aren’t capable of allowing for anything like this beign true. I’d accept that it wasn’t if you could give me one source that says “we talked to PP and they said it was fake”, or “we found out it was photoshopped”……

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why would anyone bother debunking such an obviously flimsy story? No doubt Scabby Johnson’s attempts to get real news outlets interested were met with hysterical laughter. And I’m guessing you know as much about journalism as you do about accounting, which is pretty damn next to nothing.

          • lady_black

            Look sweetie. Like I said, if it was real 1) it would look like real certificates look, not like a piece of stolen letterhead. And 2) the story would have been obtained from a legitimate site and not lifesitenews. If Scabby Johnson told me it was sunny outside, I would go to the window and check for myself.

          • lady_black

            Find an unbiased source. Pro-tip: if you can’t find it on any legitimate news site, it’s probably a hoax. As I said, it looks fake as hell to me. What professional organization gives out “award certificates” printed on cheap, everyday letterhead?

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, I ask this in all sincerity. Were you homeschooled? Because most of us learn that the burden of proof is on the person making the *positive* assertion.

            No mainstream media outlet has any information on this “story.” Just your anti-choice rags, which are far from being unbiased sources. That so-called “award” could have been made up on anyone’s printer and photographed. When it comes to Abby Johnson, Lila Rose, et al., they have been proven time and again to be liars and grifters. Citing them is like citing the National Enquirer.

        • lady_black

          That doesn’t look like any kind of professional award certificate I’ve ever seen. To be perfectly honest, it looks like someone obtained a piece of Planned Parenthood letterhead and used it to print up a bogus “award certificate.” Pro-tip: Award certificates are never printed on letterhead stationary. Surely a real award certificate would be printed on nice 100% cotton linen 24 weight fine resume quality stock. Not cheap everyday letterhead.

          • ansuz

            24 weight? Really? I’d expect higher. More diploma quality than resume quality.

          • lady_black

            I’m stating professional minimums here, maybe some use diploma quality. I’m thinking at the least, the quality of certificates my college sends out to all dean’s list students every semester. Since I was a perpetual dean’s list student I have many of them, and they’re printed on 24 weight high-fiber paper. My actual degree is printed on much heavier paper.

          • ansuz

            Makes sense. My idea of what’s usual is possibly skewed b/c private school, (relatively) rich parents, etc.

          • kellymitch

            Really? Because if you go to the PP of the Rocky Mountains website, that is exactly what their logo looks like. And, if you look at the picture, there’s a pretty thick crease in the paper, showing that it is in fact card stock an not “letterhead stationary”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, and no. It’s not credible. Not the story and certainly not Abby Johnson.

          • kellymitch

            How about PP themselves? Is that credible?

            http://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/elections-politics/blog/setting-record-straight-planned-parenthood-expanding-access-care/

            Or is this a fake website? I don’t know……

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not too great on reading comprehension either, because it doesn’t really confirm what you think it does. Were you homeschooled?

          • fiona64

            She’s clearly not the sharpest tool in the drawer.

          • kellymitch

            “So, no, we don’t have quotas. And, yes, we absolutely do celebrate our progress in ensuring that more people have access to the full range of reproductive health care, including abortion. And we always will.”
            Seems pretty clear to me. Maybe it’s your reading comprehension that needs some fine tuning.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry, but no– that still doesn’t prove your point at all. And this is getting pretty lame, Kelly. Whoever homeschooled you did a sucky job.

          • kellymitch

            Wow….find a reliable source …..so I did. But that’s still not good enough. Typical………

          • Jennifer Starr

            Only your source doesn’t say exactly what you think it does. Saying that you celebrate progress in ensuring access to reproductive health care (which I happen to celebrate as well), does not translate into ‘ yes we give cheap looking paper awards to clinics for meeting abortion quotas’. But Abby Johnson lies, and it looks like you do too.

          • kellymitch

            Yeah, if you ask someone if they gave out an award, and they respond with “we will absolutely celebrate that”…..yeah, I guess it is too much of a stretch to equate that to a YES. So typical.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I sincerely hope that you’re never planning any sort of a career in journalism.

          • kellymitch

            LOL….too funny. It’s so typical. You attack me and make fun of me, yet totally ignore the facts. Yep…..figures.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Kelly, you haven’t actually presented any facts. And each and every assertion that you’ve made on this board, from awards, quotas, the medical care that PP provides, their financial reports and supposedly being questioned by Congress–everything you’ve said has been continually disproven by the posters here. Do you actually have anything of value to provide?

          • kellymitch

            Really?
            1. PP provides mammograms. Not necessarily. They provide referrals to others for mammograms. And, if they get a mobil service in through Komen, that’s no different than anyone else doing so. The truth is, few of their clinics actually provide mammograms, but yes, they will give you a referral to go somewhere else. (So, how much money should go to them for mammograms?)
            2. I never said they had quotas, but I did reference the supposed award. You all told me it was fake. I provided a link to the PP website that talked about it, but that wasn’t good enough. That same link said, no, they don’t have quotas, but yes, they will continue to praise their clinics that offer lots and lots of abortions. Again, you didn’t accept that, even though it was from PP itself.
            3. Financial reports? PP’s own annual report provides that it gets

          • Jennifer Starr

            1. Your doctor provides referrals too. Your point?

            2. yes, they will continue to praise their clinics that offer lots and lots of abortions. Twisting words there, Kelly–very dishonest. That’s not what they said at all. Quite a lot of their clinics don’t even offer abortions but they do offer many other services. Reproductive health care is more than just abortion, in case you didn’t know. I still go to my local Planned Parenthood for a well-woman exam and pap smear.

            3. The financial records continue to prove that abortion is just 3% of what they offer. I’ve looked at it, and I know what it says.

            Again, nothing of substance.

          • fiona64

            That same link said, no, they don’t have quotas, but yes, they will
            continue to praise their clinics that offer lots and lots of abortions.

            No, dumbfuck, that is NOT what it said. Stop lying.

          • kellymitch

            LOL, really? I provided the link and cut and paste the last paragraph for you, and i’m still lying. Wow, for a dumbfuck, at least I can see reality. You must just be batshit crazy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Fiona’s right. That’s not what it says. The batshit is all yours.

          • fiona64

            One problem, dimwit: nowhere in the article does it say they will
            continue to praise their clinics that offer lots and lots of abortions.
            or anything even remotely like it. You’re a goddamned liar. And we all know it.

          • lady_black

            Your OB/GYN will also refer you for a mammogram. I have to go to a hospital or radiology clinic to get a mammogram. Have you ever seen one? The ones I’ve seen are huge. And very expensive. The doctors don’t keep mammogram machines tucked away in a cabinet. And most would prefer they be interpreted by a radiologist.

          • kellymitch

            I don’t have time today to study PPs annual report, but it does say they performed 337,000 some odd abortions last year. And, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I looked up my local PP clinic. There is only one in my state. The ONLY service they list? Abortion referral. That’s it. Not one other service listed………

          • Jennifer Starr

            My local Planned Parenthood offers much more than that, so I suspect you’re talking out of your ass again.

          • kellymitch

            http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-center/kansas/hays/67601/hays-health-center-2664-90740
            Here ya go. The next closest PP (not that I use them) would be 3 hours away.

          • Jennifer Starr

            According to my information, that clinic appears to be closed. http://hdnews.net/news/plannedparenthood052914

            My clinic offers many different services. From their website :

            Since 1988, the PPSEV affiliate has added a plethora of additional services. We’ve increased patient numbers by more than 50% and currently have close to 50 employees. Our Virginia Beach health center was the result of a 5-year capital campaign and was opened in July, 2010. We own both our Hampton and Virginia Beach health centers and we were fully licensed by the state of Virginia Department of Health as an abortion hospital in 2013. We now have a full medical staff and provide everything from annual well exams, breast exams, on-property mammography in partnership with Sentara, abnormal Pap test management, problem visits, all forms of birth control including long-term contraceptives, pregnancy testing, all-options counseling, surgical and medical abortion services, testing and treatment for sexually transmitted infections, testing for HIV, and the HPV vaccine. We have an education department of 6 sexuality education specialists and provide comprehensive, medically accurate sex education in all six Newport News public high schools, as well as multiple community organizations.

            http://ppsev.org/about/history/

            When I was a student, I paid a lower fee, which was next to nothing. But I was always satisfied with their health services, so even though I’m insured and pay full freight, I continue to use them.

          • kellymitch

            And I think that’s great. They do apparently provide plenty of services in some areas. But apparently different areas are run by different branches of PP. If the clinic in Hays has closed, well, ok, but why would the only thing they list for services is “abortion referrals”. And I’m sorry, it is still disgusting to give out an award for “exceeding abortion services” from the prior year. There are plenty of horror stores about PP as well.

          • fiona64

            There are plenty of horror stores about PP as well.

            Every single one of them made up by Scabby Johnson, Liar Rose, and other anti-choice grifters.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, there are not lots of horror stories. None that are backed up by facts, at any rate. They’re about as fictional as that award you keep going on about.

          • lady_black

            I guess they still give abortion referrals, because anything else would require, I don’t know, AN OPEN CLINIC MAYBE? You can thank your lovely state government for that. “What’s Wrong With Kansas?” Indeed. Is everyone there mentally challenged?

          • kellymitch

            Well, yeah, I guess they can give abortion referrals, but not say, mammogram referrals, or cancer screening referrals, or pre natal care referrals…….you’re right. The ONLY thing they could possibly do now that they are closing/closed is give an abortion referral. Yep, you are absolutely right.

          • lady_black

            The residents of your state are lucky they give any referrals at all. Call Brownback and ask HIM where to go. He pretends he has all the answers. Let’s see if he can help you.

          • kellymitch

            Wow, and is global warming my fault too? All you’ve done is hurl insults at me with absolutely no substance. I’m glad you are that smart and savvy……

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, she’s provided quite a lot of substance, whereas you’ve provided very little.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And furthermore, how is stating the fact that Kansas representatives have really screwed up reproductive health care in your state insulting you? That doesn’t even make sense, Kelly.

          • fiona64

            … says the woman who came in here armed with nothing but lies and got all butt-hurt when she was proven wrong.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            When abortion was illegal, so many women were dying and being maimed, that Clergy formed an abortion referral service and advertised the service in a full page ad in the NYTs.

            Founded in 1967, the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion was a network of clergy who referred women to safe (though still illegal) abortions. There were 26 ministers and a rabbi at the founding of the network, and more than a thousand when the Roe v. WadeSupreme Court Decision made the organization unnecessary.

            The existence of a group of clergy willing to refer women to abortion services was important primarily for two reasons:

            – safer abortions: women who consulted with the service could often find more reliable, safer abortion procedures than if they relied on their own informal networks.

            – ethical statement: the presence of clergy willing to take professional and legal risks to aid women seeking abortions was an ethical statement, important in changing social attitudes towards the legalization of abortion.

          • fiona64

            Here’s ours:

            Planned Parenthood Mar Monteimproves and transforms the lives of over 250,000 women, men and children every year in 29 counties throughout mid-California and 13 counties in Northern Nevada. We reach people through our medical services, education programs and advocacy initiatives.

            With 36 health center locations and 11 community sites, we provide a range of reproductive and general health services including birth control, pregnancy testing and options counseling, STD testing and treatment, HIV testing, breast and cervical cancer screening, abortion, prenatal care, pediatrics and adult primary health care.

            Our engaging education programs feature classroom and community presentations, one-to-one outreach, peer education, family communicationclasses, and supportive youth development programs for at-risk male andfemale teens and pregnant/parenting teen girls to help them plan positive futures.

            We proudly advocate for reproductive freedom to ensure that our
            voices are heard at every level, from city halls to the halls of
            Congress.

            (Yep, our local PP network even does those non-existent-according-to-Kelly breast cancer screenings in-house.)

            We are here to serve you, inform you and involve you. Welcome to PPMM! – See more at: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-mar-monte/who-we-are#sthash.ynkbvgcz.dpuf

          • lady_black

            It says the clinic closed because they are being denied family planning funds by the government. So yeah, I guess that clinic wouldn’t offer many services, being closed and all. Fess’ up. You were home-schooled, or you’re a child… right?

          • kellymitch

            And yeah, I was mistaken. There are 3 total clinics in my state. The one that would be “mine” and 2 others. The 2 others do offer other services, but they are 3 and 6 hours from me. My point was, it is nice that their ONLY service is “abortion referral”….not well woman referral, or pre natal referral, or cancer screening referral, or any other of the 97% of services they supposedly offer.

          • fiona64

            My point was, it is nice that their ONLY service is “abortion referral”.

            Nope. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-kansas-mid-missouri

          • kellymitch

            Well, sure, that’s the regional website. NOT the website for the clinic I referenced. Again, making it up as you go.

          • dudebro

            Just popping by to say that you’re still an ignorant fuckwit.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Since the clinic you referenced is closed now–your point?

          • fiona64

            The clinic you referenced is *closed.*

            Keep digging, sweetie. Pretty soon you’ll reach rock-bottom and have to drill.

          • lady_black

            BUFFALO BAGELS! You don’t really expect anyone to believe that. do you?

          • fiona64

            You don’t have time to study the annual report that you claim to have read? Really?

            Dumbass.

          • kellymitch

            I claimed that they did over 337,000 abortions and got over 550 million in Federal funds. That IS in their report. Beyond that, digging deeper would take time I’m not willing to spend on people who won’t hear it anyway.

          • fiona64

            And you’ve already been told, with references that a) abortions represent only 3 percent of PP’s work, and b) that NO FEDERAL FUNDS ARE USED FOR ABORTION.

            I’m no longer of the opinion that you were merely homeschooled, BTW; I now believe you are either functionally illiterate or developmentally delayed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The first thing you told us was to ‘read the report’, which you supposedly believed would prove you right despite the fact that you had never actually read it yourself? Seriously–what the hell?

          • lady_black

            You looked it up where? On their website? In the phone book? Did you call and ask? Because if they give abortion referrals, that means they do not do abortions, and they wouldn’t stay in business very long just giving abortion referrals. They don’t make any money doing that. Just saying.

          • lady_black

            If someone gave me that and said it was an award, I would crumple it up in front of them and throw it in the trash. I know 10 year old kids who could do a better job of making a certificate than that piece of garbage. Professional awards are NOT printed on cheap letterhead, generally use the landscape printing orientation, and would spell out words such as “fiscal year” and perhaps even spell out the year itself. They would NOT be rendered as “FY 2013.” I have never seen any fake document as unprofessionally done as this one. Most scammers at least try to make it look authentic, but I guess Scabby Johnson is about as dumb as they come. And she think YOU are too. Good luck with that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I got a better looking award than that when I completed Vacation Bible School in 1979–and that was from a tiny Baptist church in a town of about 500 people.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have presented no facts and no figures. None. You have a serious problem with reading comprehension.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for proving once again that you have reading comprehension skills.

          • lady_black

            I know PP is a non-profit and all, but I’ll bet they don’t hand out award certificates printed on cheap office quality letterhead.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And incidentally, anyone with eyes can see that isn’t card stock.

          • kellymitch
        • goatini

          Notorious grifter Scabby Johnson concocted that patent load of BS. Scabby, as well as LieSpews Dot Com, are utterly unreliable and non-credible sources of anything except malicious misinformation.

        • Tweetiebird57

          The “proof” is in the letterhead itself. All PP letterheads have , “inc” included after the Planned Parenthood. Seems the forgers forgot about that. Independent fact checkers have proven that this was a fabrication and propaganda put out by this organization. And for goodness sakes, use some common sense please. How would Planned Parenthood increase their abortion rates? They don’t go door to door selling abortion services, women come to them. They don’t lie, deceive, or fabricate anything, they provide services just like any health clinic and they are highly regulated. You ought to do a bit of research about the laws that pro life organizations break every day in offices that they advertise to be health clinics that offer abortion services, they aren’t health clinics, they don’t offer abortion services, they hijack patients and lie to them about contraceptives and abortion and have been sued repeatedly for their practices.

        • fiona64

          Still fake, no matter how many times you spam it.

    • ansuz

      I’m so confused about what your argument is.

      The article says ‘pro-life groups are being increasingly openly anti-contraception and anti-sex’, and offers examples (e.g., the Pro-Life Ministries group protesting the Planned Parenthood that doesn’t offer abortion: “Two weeks after that, anti-abortion activists claim to have hung nearly 14,000 leaflets on doors throughout the neighborhood, urging residents to avoid the new Planned Parenthood, which they say offers ‘dangerous contraception,’ ‘promotes and encourages sex without limits,’ and is ‘destroying families,’” Marty writes.) and analysis, and you respond with, what? Are you trying to say that the pro-choice side is worse because abortion?

    • lady_black

      For your education, Planned Parenthood has MANY clinics that do not offer abortions. In fact most do not. The clinic in my city has operated many decades, and never done a single abortion. They refer people for abortions on request, but they do nothing but provide sexual health services like cancer and STD screening and treatments, contraception, education, and referrals for other services they don’t personally provide. They were a godsend to me when I was young and uninsured, and to my daughter and sister when she needed their services. I’m not sure what your argument is, as they are already doing what you claim they should be doing.

    • Tweetiebird57

      kellymitch-
      Abortion is only 3% of the services that Planned Parenthood provides. They have ALWAYS done what they say they do. And let’s be very clear about this, Planned Parenthood doesn’t ENCOURAGE abortions, anymore than any health clinic or doctor’s office pushes any single procedure they offer, so please STOP with the propaganda. Abortion is merely one of the options available to women.
      Preventative care medications and devices have been covered under insurance plans for a long time now, contraceptives are simply a part of that preventative care and should be covered.

    • matilda9

      Abortion is legal. Nobody likes it. Women don’t just have abortions on a whim because they want to go to the beach. Planned Parenthood doesn’t recruit women to have abortions.
      Maybe you should mind your own fucking business.

  • dudebro

    From Dr. Darrel Ray, skip to the bolded part if tldr:

    So let’s look at what’s really going on here. There are probably 10,000 sex acts for every live birth. But religionists tell us sex should be for procreation, especially our dear friend the pope. The pope says, “Have sex only for procreation.” Well, this is my dear dog, Sugar. Many of you who have been to my house know Sugar. We have a rule, you can’t have any dogs up here unless she’s at least one of those dogs. Now, the pope says have sex only for procreation, well that’s how my dog has sex. That’s how an insect has sex. That’s how a cow has sex. More of the sexual species on this planet only have sex when the female’s fertile and ready to reproduce. We’re not like that: we can have sex any damn time we want to, and that’s wonderful, I’m sure glad about that, but the pope says, “No, that’s not right. You shouldn’t be doing it.”

    Now, when I say, “10,000 sex acts,” I’m including masturbation, guys and gals, ok? So we’ll just put that in the equation. Although some of you might be doing 10,000 without masturbation, I don’t know.

    Shame, fear, and guilt. It is always to a religion’s advantage to create shame around sexual activity. In The God Virus I talk about the Guilt Cycle. I won’t go into detail about that either today. But the fact is, if I can make you feel guilty about something that you’re going to do anyway, then the only place you can get forgiveness for that guilt is the place you learned it. So religion basically gives us a disease, then sells us a cure for that same disease. So without sexual guilt, without sexual fear, without sexual shame, all the major religions on the planet would collapse. Can you imagine the pope waking up one day and saying, “Whoa, I had a great wet dream last night! I think we’ll make masturbation legal.” No, that’s probably not going to happen.

    And then we have our friend Rush Limbaugh, who thinks he can shame women into shutting their mouths and be quiet, not just in church, but in the entire political system. Sandra Fluke –she is one of my heroes. [applause from audience] She stood up to Rush Limbaugh and told the guy to go fuck himself and I love it. I think that’s what more people oughta be doing.

    But why is Rush doing it? Because patriarchy religious systems use shame to keep women under control, and Rush is simply doing what patriarchies have been doing for three or four thousand years, using sexual shame to keep women from asserting themselves. Physically, politically, spiritually, sexually, you know, whatever you want to call it. But there’s one piece of shame I don’t hear anybody talking about, and I do want to spend a little time on that piece of shame, and that is male shame.

    It is very obvious that Rush Limbaugh is trying to shame Sandra Fluke. What is not so obvious is what is going on inside of Rush Limbaugh’s head, or indeed many, many males’ heads. Shame is an important component in any religion, but one of the key parts of shame is telling men, “You must control your wives and daughters.” Men who do not control their wives and daughters are not doing their duties as head of the religious household and the head of whatever the religious – and that’s what you see in Mitt Romney. That’s what you see in Mormons. It’s what you see in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You just name the religion and if it’s patriarchal, and most of them are, the man is supposed to make sure he controls his wife and his daughters. Now what happens if his daughter gets pregnant, quote “out of wedlock”? That brings shame down upon the man. In some cultures, the daughter will be killed. In our culture it will bring great shame upon the family and you will see fathers apologizing. I have heard atheist fathers apologizing for their daughters getting pregnant without being married. Now what is going on there? Why would an atheist father ever apologize, unless he’s infected with this notion of shame?

    http://skepticon.org/darreltranscript/

    • Ella Warnock

      Bookmarked to delve into later.

    • lady_black

      I read that essay on another site, can’t remember which one, something tells me I saw it on patheos, but I could be wrong. Thanks for re-posting it. It’s a very good essay.

      • dudebro

        I’ve been pasting it everywhere lately.

        Darrel Ray was just on a podcast that I listened to, and he made the same points with some minor changes. He added that opposition to contraception and abortion is an attempt to keep women as property. Period.

        • lady_black

          Well of course it is. I was just informed on lifesitenews that the ‘manly men’ will step up and tell us “no.” To which I responded (in essence) JUST WATCH ME.

          • fiona64

            Some “manly man” will go home with his teeth in a sack if he tries to stop women from exercising their rights.

    • Mary Kambic

      I have no idea what these posts are about. The Pope and the Catholic Church do not say that sex is only for procreation. Family planning does not mean only contraception, as people practice other forms of family planning that do not include contraceptives.
      Euthanasia is not the same as stopping treatment for disease and letting death come naturally. I am appalled at the ignorance of the diatribes against people against abortion and euthanasia, which include many progressive groups such as Sojourners and Pax Christi, both of which I support.

      • dudebro

        The church doesn’t want people having sex with contraception, because its non-procreative.
        And euthanasia is fine, why can’t a person choose to end their suffering? Are you a sadist? Do you like to see the terminally Ill suffer!

      • Arekushieru

        Are you a misogynist? If not, then why do you want to strip rights from women? As you can see, these so-called ‘diatribes’ are actually quite factual!

  • labman57

    Social conservatives — displaying their typical ignorance about the medical and health-related concerns of women — continue to try to impose their personal lifestyle choices on all Americans as they strive to make “zygotic personhood” the law of the land.

  • dudebro

    Planned Parenthood and contraception hurt the economy cuz fewer baybeez will be born!!!!!!!!!! Obamfail! /snark

    • Ella Warnock

      Contraception is bad cuz biology = destiny and you’d better not forget
      it !!11elevn!11ty. U r s!ut if u prevent baybeez !!11!1111

    • StealthGaytheist

      The whiteys is dyin out cuz of the contraception mentality!!!

      • fiona64

        That is exactly what they *mean,* but have to use dogwhistle words to give plausible deniability to their racism and, frankly, Islamophobia.

        • StealthGaytheist

          They hate black people and Latinos too, but rhe fact that many of them are Christians does give them a boost over the Muslims, regardless of their skin color.

        • lady_black

          Calvin’s over there telling me that another poster who’s denigrating the education given to “minorities” isn’t racist, but an argument for school choice. The poster never said “school choice” just minorities. I don’t see it. I give up.

          • fiona64

            Calvin is a fascist lunatic.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Calvin is extremely thin-skinned. Note how anything he says about anyone is a ‘reasoned observation’, but anything said about him that he dislikes is ‘slander’ or ‘lies’. And he doesn’t even know how to use the word slander correctly.

          • dudebro

            Remember how pissy he got on Cross Examined at Patheos? Man that was funny.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            Hi – can you send me a link to the Cross Examined article you are talking about? I”d like to read it.

          • dudebro

            Wrong one. I’ll have to check my logs, it was a few months ago.

          • dudebro

            Here is the link to Calvin Freakburger’s final comment, and then you just work your way up the thread from there:

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2014/01/why-is-it-always-men-advancing-the-pro-life-position-2/#comment-1223442522

    • lady_black

      Believe it or not, they are making the argument over on lifesitenews that abortions hurt the economy, and even making the ridiculous assertion that childless women who have experienced abortions, miscarriages and implantation failure are mothers.

      • Ella Warnock

        OMG, that fucking ridiculous meme “childfree wimminz are mothers too they just don’t knooowww it’ is spreading? Well, allrighty then, what are all my ‘children’s’ names? When are their birthdays, so that I can memorialize them properly? I’d ask those questions myself, but I’m banned there.

        Oh, and how did I get myself banned? By disagreeing with their party line that childfree marriages were devoid of love and devotion. What the hell do I know? I’m apparently under the ‘mistaken’ impression that I’m a childfree woman who has no kids. ::near fatal eye roll::

        • StealthGaytheist

          Oh dear. I’m going to have to inform my wife that our marriage is devoid of love and devotion. That will be news to her, as it is to me.

      • Ella Warnock

        Which article is that?

  • verdulo1

    I once talked with a “pro-life” man who said that he believed that even in poor countries where children would die of hunger if their parents had too many kids, it was better to not use birth control. Yes, that is right! It is better that children starve to death. Really horrible appalling world view.

    • StealthGaytheist

      Yep. Better to live a short life of agony than never live at all–say the crusaders who live cushy privileged lives.

      • lady_black

        I’ll bet those who live short lives of agony would beg to disagree with her. As a nurse, I’ve met many people who just are ready to die. And they aren’t all old either, but they are tired and in great pain.

        • dudebro

          Of course, we can’t dare say that. Because then *we* are pushing our values on others, and it’s not our place to say whether or not a short life full of agony is worth living or not!

          Seriously, there is SO SO much existential angst present in pro-lifers. Which isn’t a surprise. They also oppose voluntary euthanasia. They have this obsessive fear of death panels and doctors being forced to kill everyone in the ward.

          • StealthGaytheist

            “They have this obsessive fear of death panels and doctors being forced to kill everyone in the ward.”

            They don’t mind doctors letting people die (like women, LGBT people, etc) because Jesus.

          • Ella Warnock

            Their obsessive fear is that they, personally, will die. Other (lesser) people should not fear death, rather accept it with resignation if that’s the decree of their ‘betters.’

          • fiona64

            Yep. They’re always projecting their existential angst onto others.

          • lady_black

            One of the saddest questions ever asked of me in a long lifetime happened a few years back. I had a friend, younger than me (she was 39) had terminal lung cancer, and she asked me one day if I thought it would be “wrong” of her to stop her chemo and radiation. I was a bit caught off guard by the question, so I asked her what she thought about it. She said she knew she was going to die and that she was just tired of fighting and tired of being sick, and she would like to live to see spring and did I think it was “wrong” of her to feel that way. I said no, it wasn’t wrong and that she should do whatever she thought best. We talked about hospice and all the services she could get at home, and we talked about what death might be like. She said it would be nice to just fall asleep and I said yes, I think it’s just like that. She did stop her treatment with her doctor’s blessing, and entered hospice. We kept in touch, and I know she did live to see spring. She died in peace, at her home, with her partner and family at her side. I still miss her. I’m just glad she didn’t meet with people who would try to guilt her into something she didn’t want.

          • dudebro

            Yes, they would disregard her wishes and force her to suffer for their own political ends.

          • lady_black

            More like their pathological inability to face death as a part of life. Even if it means great suffering.

          • dudebro

            Yeah that. I still hold to this:

            http://www.tmt.missouri.edu/

            Terror Management Theory underlies a lot of the irrational fears that people have, and explains the attraction of religion

          • Jennifer Starr

            We had a guy in here once with the Abolish Human Abortion group–he tried to tell me that death was not a part of life at all–he was way out there.

          • lady_black

            I just hope I did the right thing. It tore me apart, just like accepting that my mom was ready to die. Of course, I wasn’t ready for her to die. But I think that feeling was selfish.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You absolutely did the right thing

          • cjvg

            She died in peace at her home with her family and partner by her side, how could that possibly be wrong.

            Just consider what the alternative would be (I’m sure you have seen it being a nurse) and there is your reassurance you did right by her.

          • matilda9

            My God! Of course you did the right thing. You helped her look at it from all angles and supported her right to end things on her own terms. You are a good friend.

          • Arekushieru

            What about my obsessive fear of their ‘life’ panels and ‘sidewalk counselors’ that will force me to remain alive despite any agony I might be enduring in a ward? Their greedy (isn’t that a sin, btw?), after all, because as long as it’s not THEMSELVES who are suffering, it’s all fine and dandy. Sadistic freaks. ESPECIALLY people like Arsenio.

        • StealthGaytheist

          Death with dignity is another concept the antichoicers can’t grasp.

          • fiona64

            Yep. AntiChoiceMama, just the other day, said “And I suppose you support ‘assisted suicide’ for the elderly and infirm as well.” I didn’t bother to respond to her … but the truth is, I support the right to die with dignity. I might not make that same choice myself, but someone else’s right to do so should be unquestioned.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It was that and what she said about organ transplants that really pissed me off.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, that was pretty much when the gloves came off for good. If she were standing in front of me, I’d be going to jail and she’d be carrying her teeth in a sack.

          • KARockhound

            I know this thread is old, but, OMG, I laughed so hard…thank you! I find the anti-choice agenda more than I can bear sometimes!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Now that is stupid.

    • Arachne646

      Like Mother Teresa, who saw great value and beauty in the suffering of the terminally ill, not as much, however, in giving them good nursing care and easing their pain.

  • Kris Weibel

    Fear hidden behind religion. Her thought process could be “if I’m not gettin any, no one else can. Fear of women having sex because it’s FUN is not within her reality – obviously. However, this is a growing trend and it is on the scary side as well.

  • smrnda

    First, contraception is a technological advancement that is necessary for sustaining civilization. We could not have what we call ‘civilization’ without it, any more than we could have civilization without electricity, the internet, or any number of technologies that have affected almost every aspect of our lives.

    Second, the idea that ‘it’s not health care’ is a bit ridiculous. Contraception can make periods easier to deal with. That alone is enough that it IS health care. Additionally, pregnancy is a pretty major thing, medicine wise. Pregnancy causes symptoms that fit the profile of any illness – nausea anyone? To argue that preventing a pregnancy is ‘not health care’ would be like saying a drug to prevent an allergic reaction isn’t health care since hey, the allergic reaction won’t kill you.

    Third, the idea that sex without pregnancy is some kind of extravagant recreation is utterly insane. Having a child is a major, life changing event. I can’t imagine how *anyone* could have sex without stressing out about that if they really didn’t know and couldn’t prevent it from happening if it just wasn’t the time. On top of that, the idea that ‘it’s not health care’ seems tied to an extremely limited idea of ‘health’ in which any activity, no matter how pleasurable, is no longer a normal thing but part of some ‘lifestyle’ which is above and beyond what people should expect in life. A health life needs to include some consequence free fun. To argue that your health care shouldn’t cover expenses due to recreation – it’s like saying that a job should only provide you resources to work only, like workers in some Chinese factory living on-site.

    Fourth, if the idea is ‘why should I subsidize YOUR lifestyle?’ Why, because we’re all subsidizing each other’s lifestyles. I could object to any number of activities that I think are risky or dangerous, but I don’t want to live in that kind of world.

  • fiona64

    Well, that implies that Kelly can think …

  • catseye

    Or a heavy-duty cane.

  • lady_black

    I realize that it’s not selfish not to be ready for someone you love to die. What’s selfish is denying what they want, in order to make yourself feel better. You have to put how YOU feel about it on the back burner, and support that person’s decision to die with dignity. I’m thinking about the Terri Schiavo debacle, and how “pro-life” strangers came crawling out of the woodwork to interfere in a family’s private decision. In my opinion, those people were very selfish.

  • agio

    If they are that opposed to contraception, they should just come out and support butt sex. 100% effective birth control and natural as well.

    • fiona64

      Look up Garfunkle & Oates “The Loophole” on YouTube. Just sayin’ …

  • catseye

    Can’t have too much protection, you know.

  • prolifemama

    Rebecca Taylor is correct. Hormonal birth control isn’t medicine. This is because a fertile female isn’t sick.

    “To control and punish people, especially women, who engage in non-procreative sex.”

    Come on. This is what you would like to believe. The HobbyLobby case ruling, as the general public understands it (and what it actually does) safeguards business owners’ religious beliefs regarding birth control, by not requiring them to purchase birth control for their employees’ insurance plans.

    Prolifers’ motivation, therefore, is to avoid being controlled and punished for our faith and living according to its precepts.

    • dudebro

      Wrong.
      Pregnancy is natural, but that does not mean its safe.

      • prolifemama

        hey, dudebro. nice to see you.
        Pregnancy IS natural, but birth control doesn’t help it to be safer, and it does a chemical/hormonal number on women, including putting them at risk of certain cancers.

        • dudebro

          Yeah, birth control DOES help to make it safer, because constant pregnancy wears out a woman’s body and will eventually kill her.

          • prolifemama

            “constant pregnancy wear out a woman’s body and will eventually kill her” – citation, please (as you are so fond of demanding)
            Still, pregnancy isn’t what we’re talking about. We’re talking about birth control not being medicine, and the hormonal methods – estrogen-protestogen oral contraceptives – actually classified by the WHO (one of your fave proabort orgs) as Class I carcinogens …

          • dudebro

            Pregnancy is hard on the body. Even Michelle Duggar put her life at risk with the last pregnancy.

            How come YOU don’t have 20 kids? If pregnancy is so healthy?

            Birth control is preventative medicine because being not pregnant is healthier than being pregnant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And Michelle Duggar hasn’t even hardly raised them. She just kept pawning them off on the oldest children so she could concentrate on popping another out.

          • prolifemama

            Have I mentioned the number of children I have?

          • dudebro

            Not 20.

          • goatini

            No one cares.

          • prolifemama

            goatini – apt name, butting in again.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t have the right to decide who gets to join in the conversation here.

          • conversate

            This is a public forum.

          • goatini

            This is a reproductive justice website’s message board. You want to post your lying hate speech here, deal with the consequences.

          • prolifemama

            I do, my dear. I do.

          • goatini

            So you like being exposed for the vicious misogynist proDEATHER you are? Isn’t it time for you to go to Confession? You’ve racked up enough lies just today alone to warrant a long penance.

          • prolifemama

            My conscience is clear about abortion, and the information I post here.

          • conversate

            Lying for Jesus.

          • goatini

            Since everything you post here is a hateful, anti-American lie, you have NO conscience.

          • prolifemama

            Expose my so-called lies with tuth, not your hateful diatribe, goatini.

          • goatini

            Pointing out facts and calling out lying liars is NOT “hateful diatribe”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Lie #1–You came here seeking honest debate. That’s a biggie.

          • conversate

            We do. Over and over and over again. Yet you won’t even look at our citations.

            And you wonder why we accuse you of debating dishonestly.

          • goatini

            Excuse me, but *I* am not the one here screeching anti-American hate speech against the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice. You have a HELL of a nerve denying your lies and hate speech against free, independent female American citizens.

          • fiona64

            Your lies have been exposed repeatedly, with sources, etc. It’s not anyone’s fault but YOURS that you are too stupid to tell fact from fiction.

          • Jennifer Starr

            When have you ever posted any information? We already know that you never even bother to look at the information we give to you.

          • conversate

            She just makes baseless assertions. Does not even try to back them up with logic.

          • goatini

            All she posts are hateful diatribes and vicious lies. She is an enemy of freedom and justice.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for admitting that you prefer being delusional.

          • Cactus_Wren

            ProLieMama reminds me of talk.abortion’s Papa Jack, who once tried to mandate by personal fiat who was allowed to reply to his postings and who was not.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are not a woman. You are not an adult. You have never borne children.

          • prolifemama

            Being pregnant is a healthy and natural state for women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you’re telling me I don’t need to go to the doctor, don’t need to change my exercise habits or what I eat or drink. What a relief.

          • dudebro

            Nope. I already provided you with citations on this. Citations that you did not read.

          • fiona64

            Nope. Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness.

          • goatini

            Yeah, tell Savita’s husband that. You are a vicious, hateful excuse for a human being.

          • prolifemama

            and you’re pretty gullible to believe the drive-by media’s take on that poor woman – fodder for their, and your, proabort cannons.

            but you’d never believe the truth.

          • conversate

            The particular infection that she had could *only* be treated if the source of the infection – the fetus – was removed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The truth was that they refused to complete the miscarriage of a non-viable fetus, which caused the infection and brought about her death. So very ‘pro-life’ of them.

          • goatini

            A safe, legal pregnancy termination would have saved her life. But you keep screeching your lying hate speech for your proDEATH cannons. Women dying from tragic pregnancies gone wrong are fodder for your masturbatory fantasies.

          • prolifemama

            Didn’t your mother ever teach you that nice girls don’t talk like you do?

          • goatini

            My Mother would also think you are a hateful piece of garbage. My Mother was pro-choice because she loved her daughters and thought we were equal to her son in all ways. Too bad your Mother didn’t feel the same way about you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            My mother says that you’re so full of it that your eyes are brown.

          • goatini

            She’s now trying to silence the truth-tellers with sexist “shame” bullshit.

          • ansuz

            *splorfle*

            Thank fuck I have a silicone keyboard protector; I’ve already lost one laptop to a cup of tea.

          • fiona64

            More tone-policing? And why? Not one even remotely inappropriate word in Goatini’s post. Maybe you just get angry when you’re exposed to *facts.* What a loser you are.

            You can go f*** yourself, so far as I am concerned. I am an adult *woman,* not a girl, and how I choose to express myself is just one *more* choice you don’t get to make for me.

          • Guest

            Goatini points out that the hospital’s “failure to offer all management options” was specifically a KEY CAUSAL FACTOR in Savita Halappanavar’s death.

            ProLieMama, having no response, whines that goatini is using Naughty Language.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Didn’t your mother ever teach you you don’t get to tell other women what to do with their bodies? Rapist.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You know, you might actually try addressing the points that Goatini made instead of blathering about how ‘nice girls’ talk. If you want to actually prove that you’re here for an honest debate, that is.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The nice girl thinks she’s giving up something to get something better in return. She gives up control over her own life. When the time comes for her to get what she expected, she winds up disappointed. In addition to being empty-handed, she’s depleted.
            – Sherry Argov

          • Ella Warnock

            Nice girl often = chump.

          • Ella Warnock

            We already aren’t ‘nice girls’ since we’re ‘pro-aborts,’ though, right? Not that I ever put much stock into being a nice girl, of course.

          • conversate

            You believe that we are psychopathic babykillers, no?

            So, how can we be “nice girls”?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Jehovah is a proabort. I am made in God’s image my priest tells me. Abortion is a sacrament.
            Hosea 13:16.
            The word of the LORD …
            Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

          • MsCongeniality

            Healthy 100% of the time? Do you really believe that?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Having an abortion is a healthy and normal response to unwanted or doomed pregnancy. All women who are fertile have abortions, spontaneous or induced, at some time during their fertile years.

            One in 3 women induce abortion. What is natural to humankind is what humankind actually does. Women abort and always have.

          • fiona64

            “constant pregnancy wear out a woman’s body and will eventually kill her”

            You have a hard time handling reality, don’t you?

            Maternal depletion syndrome is a thing. http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/01/health/multiple-pregnancies-mother/

            Quote:

            Pregnancy and childbirth complications are among the leading causes of death among women living in developing countries, according to the World Health Organization. Each pregnancy magnifies the mother’s health risks, especially when she
            doesn’t have access to health care.

            “We hear pregnancy is considered so natural and childbirth is considered a part of life, but there is a real sense of a complication and death,” said Mary Beth Powers, Save the Children’s chief of the Child Survival Campaign. “One out of seven women will face complication. That’s a global figure.”

            Some experts believe thathaving pregnancies too close together doesn’t give the mother time to recover after losing nutrients such as iron and folate after pregnancy and breastfeeding. This is called maternal depletion syndrome.

            Back-to-back pregnancies can deplete essential nutrients, making mothers at higher risk for anemia and other complications such as uterine rupture, and also puttingtheir babies at risk of low birth weight and preterm birth.

            “Taking care of someone who has had a significant number of children, once you get past two to three children, the risks increase for complications like postpartum hemorrhage,” Shaw said.

            After numerous pregnancies, the uterus “is not as taut,” said Shaw, who has visited clinics in Mozambique, Bangladesh and Tanzania. “So the more children you have, the more likely you have a significant complication. The chances of having the baby not lying in the right position when going into the labor, that’s more common.”

            After several pregnancies, the uterine muscles could fail to contract after delivery, which is the most common cause of postpartum hemorrhage. This excessive blood loss can be stopped with medical attention and immediate treatment
            such as a blood transfusion. But in many countries, these resources are not available.

          • Arekushieru

            We are fond of demanding citations for things that aren’t easily extrapolated. It is CERTAINLY easy to make the extrapolation that one of the most dependent on bodily resources condition known to man being experienced CONSTANTLY will wear out a person’s body and eventually kill them. Oops.

            The fact that you are UNAWARE just how draining pregnancy can be even under the BEST of circumstances and compared to other conditions, makes me think that you don’t have nearly as many children as I’ve seen you CLAIM to have, in the past.

          • goatini

            Highly effective medically prescribed contraception IS medicine.

          • prolifemama

            It’s not prescribed for a medical condition. Normal fertility is normal functioning of the human female body, not an illness.

          • conversate

            So obgyns are just wasting their time?

          • goatini

            Highly effective medically prescribed contraception IS prescribed for medical conditions.

            Pregnancy IS a medical condition. A highly risky medical condition with complications up to and including death. And no one has the right to force a female US citizen to gestate any pregnancy to term, ever.

          • fiona64

            So much stupid, in so little space.

          • L-dan

            The symptoms of cold or flu are also normal body functions, designed to ward off invasive pathogens. And yet, we have all sorts of medication to alleviate the discomfort of some of those normal body functions. Your argument makes zero sense. Natural is not magically better.

            “Normal” wear and tear means our joints will frequently wear out before we die these days. Should we not work to reduce such wear simply because it’s natural and there are surgical or drug solutions that sometimes work once those joints fail? An IUD is equivalent to wrapping or bracing a weak joint or wearing orthotics…you’re using mechanical assists to avoid damage down the road.

            Pregnancy carries risks, normal or no. Preventing pregnancy means choosing to avoid those risks. This a normal and laudatory goal of medicine.

            Crying about contraception not being natural is as stupid as saying we shouldn’t use aspirin for the normal aches and pains of using our bodies. Breastfeeding often acts as a contraceptive by manipulating hormones, for that matter. How is that ok, but taking similar hormones is not ok?

        • ansuz

          As a rule, not-pregnancy is safer than pregnancy.

          “including putting them at risk of certain cancers.”

          I’m a cancer researcher. It does no such thing. Hormonal birth control generally aims* to mimic the hormonal states present in pregnancy. If someone is sexually active, their only concern is their health, and their options are hormonal birth control or pregnancy, it makes much more sense to pick hormonal birth control, as you’d get reasonably similar hormonal effects (positive and negative) by being pregnant, while also experiencing a huge physiological and metabolic strain.

          *I say ‘aims’ because everyone’s body is different

          NB: This is written off the top of my head, without checking any sources.

          • Arekushieru

            If hormonal birth control aims to mimic pregnancy, then these people are actually arguing that PREGNANCY causes cancer by denying contraception. Not only THAT, their claim that hormonal contraception causes cancer (perhaps even including breast cancer) proves the lie behind their words that ABORTION causes breast cancer.

        • fiona64

          putting them at risk of certain cancers.

          More fact-free twaddle. Quelle surprise.

        • MsCongeniality

          That’s a decision I’ll make with my doctor. Not you.

      • prolifemama

        And there exists, and has always existed, a 100% effective, non-hormonal and side-effect-free method of avoiding pregnancy.

        • Jennifer Starr

          You can be abstinent. I will save Gallifrey.

          (With thanks to Plum, though I changed the place name)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Gallifrey is worth saving. Would you like to borrow my white horse and my sword?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, I would :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Done. The horse is very fond of potato chips.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Good thing that I have a supply of them :)

        • conversate

          Except abstinence fails.

          • prolifemama

            Um, no…… people fail to abstain.

          • conversate

            Yes because abstinence is the best way to get pregnant seeing as how most people can’t resist having sex

        • fiona64

          Just because no one wants to f*** you doesn’t mean that the rest of us have to be celibate. :-D

          • prolifemama

            Come on, Fiona, be polite.

          • conversate

            You’re a passive aggressive bitch. You reap what you sow.

          • prolifemama

            I do not intend passive-aggressivity at all, at all. What you define as passive-aggressive, I define as politeness.

            Here’s a definition I found online. I think I see where you’re getting the idea that it define my behavior online:

            “of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials.”

            I don’t avoid direct confrontation. I CAME to this website, expecting the arguments (but not the verbal abuse) I have so far received. What you may see as procrastination, is my not being able to be online at all times because I am, as I mentioned, caring for my aged and infirm mother, in our home. I am married, and have six children (no grands yet). I do not pout. I also volunteer various services on a regular basis.

            If your demands of me include bowing to your slanted definitions of prolife/prochoice, my usage of baby when you demand “fetus” and etc., of course I will not capitulate. Nor would you, were the situation reversed. Neither, however, will I call you all names nor swear like a sailor. When I say “pro-abort,” I do so devoid of the vitriol acutely present in, say, Fiona’s posts. I simply define it to mean one who approves of abortions happening legally. That is absolutely accurate for most of you pro-choicers here.

            I have a life, and do not need to ‘create’ things to do. I do enjoy engaging in a good debate about life issues. Sadly, this is not forthcoming from RHRC folks, who would seem rather to delight in displaying all the profanity they know, name-calling, and avoiding as the plague, as much substantive arguing as they can manage.
            The reason no citations are forthcoming is that I’ve witnessed your trampling upon Kelly Mitch’s links as “ProLie Propaganda.” My, what piercing logic. Such killer wit.

            Also, RHRC’s comment guidelines warn against the usage of demeaning terms, or comments that undermine the civility of discussion. That would, if enforced, pretty much exclude the arguments of many posters here.

          • conversate

            Bullshit.

            if you were interested in honest debate you would not have

            1) ignore our peer reviewed citations

            2) kept repeating mindless talking points

            Listen lady, I debate abortion for fun. I have been all over the blogosphere – I spend a lot of my time at SecularProLifePerspectives, and I know a real debate when I see one. You’re dishonest as fuck and only interested in preaching to us, and feeling holy.

          • prolifemama

            Abortion isn’t “fun” to me, conversate.
            It is as serious as life. And death.

            You accuse me without proof.

            Until this moment, I had not known about SecularProlife Perspectives. Thanks for the heads-up.

            checking…checking…

            Wow. Guess what? I’m a fourth-wave feminist. And I found that out in just about one and a half minutes, reading their home page comments. In the 90s, I served Feminists for Life in my home state as recording secretary.

            So thanks, con. If you would do another favor, please tell me what you consider “real debate” topics, or statements.

            And please, no demeaning or uncivil terms. Give me as good as I’m giving you.

          • conversate

            yeah, abortion is serious for you because you get off on torturing women with forced rape gestation and bodily mutilation

            I have given you plenty of debate topics – everything from fetal sentience to the health of pregnancy up to bodily autonomy

            You didn’t touch any of it, and instead just repeated the exact same talking point

            What a waste.

          • fiona64

            You accuse me without proof.

            The proof is in every post you make.

            And please, no demeaning or uncivil terms

            Stop with the goddamned tone policing already.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry, but no. You’re wrong. People have given you many substantive replies, including Fiona and conversate. And you never have replied with the same. As for Kelly Mitch, the fact that no genuine hard news source–not even Fox– picked it up kinds of speaks for itself.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I do not intend passive-aggressivity at all, at all. What you define as passive-aggressive, I define as politeness.

            Sorry, but again–no. I come from the South and I know the difference. If you say ‘dear’, I’m betting it’s through gritted teeth and a frozen smile.

          • conversate

            Or ‘bless your heart’ which is code for fuck off and die. dumbass

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, yes. I know it well.

          • conversate

            Oh, speaking of ‘honest debate’ Simon is all pissy with us over on SPL because we dont ‘understand’ his thesis.

            WTF planet is he living on/ What, does he expect his professors to just give him a gold star on first reading?

            And debating in a safe space such as SPL = fail.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He’s under the impression that he’s the logic master but he doesn’t even really understand what ‘duty of care’ means. He’s also extremely pompous.

          • conversate

            Yeah, he’s really upset that we apparently don’t understand the difference between ultimate and proximate cause. And he keeps saying that bodily donation falls under reasonable duty of care /facepalm

            I’m a bit slow on the uptake but I finally figured out why I couldnt make sense of his bullshit. It’s because, he uses analogies on the fly that back up whichever point he is making – and not all of these analogies are analogous to pregnancy, let alone each other. He thinks he can get away with it, however, because ‘only the underlying concepts matter’. No, Simon, no, it’s not that easy to escape criticism.

            Basically, he will come up with an analogy like the blizzard cabin people. They are in ‘situational existential dependency’ when they enter your house. But then you throw them out if they become aggressive towards you. Now, that works just fine for pregnancy and abortion, does it not? yes, it does.

            HOWEVER, this does not support his idiotic thesis, so he has to invent a new analogy, which is of the woman drugging a guy and forcing him to rape her and then killing him in self-defense. Or of kidnapping. You get the idea. So now, SHE is responsible for the aggressive attacks of the fetus, because apparently, by having sex, she kidnapped it, and is now responsible for it’s innocent aggression, so even if she defends herself from attack, she is still guilty of forcing an innocent moral being to violate her rights and then punishing it for that.

            But, he says, there is nothing wrong with having sex, the issue is with failing duty of care,however, she is within her rights to kill off the man she drugged into raping her, but she still has to take responsibility for killing him, because she initially forced him into aggressive action. Soo…can you say catch-22?

            Even though sex is the ultimate cause (like drugging the man or inviting the family into the house, or kidnapping a victim who then turns on you) he has assured us that he does not want to punish sex, because if a woman chooses to take it to term it’s totes ok..

            yeah, so, if you could follow that, total bait and switch debate style
            i feel ilke a dumbass not having caught onto it earlier, but I was confused as FUCK

            I asked him a couple of questions which should get to the bottom of it though

            1) what should the custodial sentence be for a woman who fails in her duty of care towards a prenate?

            2) if she has the right to bodily autonomy, then wtf can you charge her with/ if abortion is legal, but failing in duty of care is illegal, how the hell are you gonna charge her? You will have to go back to the ultimate cause – which is having sex while female

          • Jennifer Starr

            Wow–that is some convoluted thinking–it’s enough to confuse me. Does he realize that he’s created several Catch-22 situations?

          • conversate

            No. He just thinks that we are dumb.

            Have you noticed that its actually more difficult to debate dumb yet pompous people because they don’t play by the rules?

          • conversate

            *Must* hold in laughter. I told him that he had better get used to harsh criticism, and that SPL is too much of a safe space, and he replies with this:

            “”I’ve corresponded with Marquis and Boonin among others and have never had problem with people of that caliber. And was actually invited by Boonin to send him my work if I ever put it together.

            Hmm since he is one of the most respected -by professionals on sides of this debate- philosophers in this area I would rather listen to his opinion then someone who wants to shoot off his mouth.

            Feel free to continue to do so if that makes you feel big””

          • fiona64

            When she says “dear,” you know it means “bitch,” just like “that’s nice” means “eff you.”

          • Unicorn Farm

            You have received what you perceive as verbal abuse because you are an abusive person. K. Thx.

            “When I say “pro-abort,” I do so devoid of the vitriol acutely present in, say, Fiona’s posts. I simply define it to mean one who approves of abortions happening legally. That is absolutely accurate for most of you pro-choicers here.”
            This is false. Pro-abort means you advocate that women have abortions. No one here is doing that. We are advocating for the choice, and you know it. It is absolutely inaccurate. How can I be a pro-abort if I’m also pro-birth or pro-adoption for women who choose those choices?

          • fiona64

            I do not intend passive-aggressivity at all,

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            When I say “pro-abort,” I do so devoid of the vitriol

            Liar.

            avoiding as the plague, as much substantive arguing as they can manage.

            That’s a goddamned joke, coming from the person who has time to write all of this smarmy crap but allegedly “no time” to provide sources when requested. *Especially* in view of the fact that the ONLY people providing sources (which is part of substantive debate) are the pro-choice.

            And LieSiteSpew is *anti-choice propaganda.” It’s no one’s fault but yours that you are not bright enough to evaluate sources for bias. It’s especially ironic, given your assertion that actual MSM sources, the CDC, and WHO, are “pro-abort propaganda.”

            You’d be out of your depth in a mud puddle, lady.

          • Unicorn Farm

            If you want people to be polite to you, go crawl back under the rock you live under and stop telling women you think they should be forced to bear children against their will.

          • fiona64

            Your tone policing just makes me laugh.

            And I notice you still haven’t coughed up a source that both Jennifer and I have requested repeatedly, despite your assertions that you always do so (a lie) and that you never lie (a lie).

            So, stop writing your smarmy talking points and cough up the answer.

    • ansuz

      “Hormonal birth control isn’t medicine. This is because a fertile female isn’t sick.”
      I hate this argument. If you cut it, it bleeds naturalistic fallacies. Plus it’s a mess of semantic misdirection that requires ten times as much energy to refute as it does to regurgitate.

      • prolifemama

        Seriously, please elaborate. I’ve never heard the proabort slant of this argument…why do you hate it?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Probably because it’s crap.

        • dudebro

          If ansuz is a pro abort then you are a forced birther. Or, as I like to say, all of your arguments are pro slavery

          • prolifemama

            Your argument is the pro-slavery one, as you support withholding legal protection from an entire segment of the human population, because they don’t qualify as persons according to your definition of the word. You discriminate against them due to their age and place of residence

          • dudebro

            Even if they did qualify as persons, they would not have a right to anyone’s body.

          • prolifemama

            Why do unborn babies not have a right to live within their mothers?

            This is where all of us grew – in our mothers’ wombs (uteruses, if you prefer). We were not interlopers there, we were offspring, children, progeny.

            Where else would you have us grow?

          • dudebro

            You don’t have the right to grow at the expense of persons bodily autonomy.

          • Arekushieru

            It has nothing do with where we would rather have them grow, in either case. It has EVERYTHING to do with the use of our body. And whether we want them to or not. That’s IT, that’s ALL.

            My mother had me because of CHOICE, not because that’s just ‘where we all grow’, btw. Kthxbai.

          • goatini

            No such thing as an “unborn baby”, because all babies, ever, have already been born.

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth.

            And I’ll keep repeating facts to your lying BS until you get a clue about facts, reality, and civil rights.

          • prolifemama

            What’s in a name? A baby downgraded by proaborts to “fetus” is nevertheless a human offspring, child, heir, etc.

            You’re correct that the word ‘baby’ does not imply, nor does a baby possess, legal protection of his or her life.

            And that, my dear dimunitive ruminant, is the goal of the prolife movement.

          • conversate

            Fetus is the correct scientific definition.

          • goatini

            Making up BS lying fake “definitions” again, I see.

            A fetus is a fetus, has not been born, is not a person, is not a citizen, is not an heir, is not a child, is not “offspring”, and has no rights.

            A baby is a baby, and a child is a child. Babies and children have been born, are persons, are citizens, and have rights. Babies and children do indeed possess legal protection of their lives via said rights.

            A woman downgraded by forced birthers to livestock IS the goal of the forced-birth movement.

          • prolifemama

            If a close friend or relative’s fetus is born at 28 weeks and survives, will you, goatini, refrain from calling him/her a baby until s/he reaches the ‘correct’ age?

            Or would merely her/his sleeping place changing from womb to
            crib incline you to use the warmer word “baby”?

            Say for a moment that your most nightmarish fears are realized, and that during your lifetime, the U.S. Supreme Court declares unborn babies to be legal persons from fertilization on and while yet unborn, with all the protections of the law that you and I enjoy. They did it for black human beings; it is within the realm of possibility that they will do it for unborn human beings as well.

            After blacks were legally declared persons with legal rights
            status, what, if anything, changed about their fundamental nature as human beings? Wasn’t the whole point of SCOTUS’ decision to finally accord blacks legal recognition of who they are and always have been – human beings – and as such, deserving of personhood and all its legal perks and protections?

            And so, in your humble goatini opinion, what fundamental changes, if any, will occur in human fetuses once SCOTUS has declared them legal persons at fertilization and while yet unborn, changes that finally make them worthy of elevation to full human being status? Won’t SCOTUS’ announcement instead be an acknowledgement that fetuses are and have always been human beings – just as blacks have always been – and as such, deserving of personhood and all its legal perks and protections?

          • goatini

            More hate speech from the hateful, more lies from the liar.

            Persons of color are PERSONS who have BEEN BORN. Your “comparison” with non-born non-persons and non-citizens is utterly baseless – and it is an insult to all actual BORN persons.

            Fertilized eggs will NEVER be “declared” as “legal persons” in the United States of America, and your anti-American seditious hate speech against the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens is maliciously and deliberately intended to dehumanize and erase the very humanity from living, breathing women.

            Below is some ACTUAL proDEATH hate speech against female US citizens, posted recently to RHRC. I want to see you, you vicious liar, defend THIS – we all know THIS is what you think should happen to innocent female US citizens with tragic pregnancy diagnoses!

            //In the case where the mother might be killed during child birth, it would actually be better to save the fetus at the mother’s expense. After all, the mother may very well never be able to bring another fetus to term. So as they say, out with the old & in with the new.//

          • Unicorn Farm

            My god you are a horrible person. The fact that you can characterize a pregnant woman’s body as a “baby’s” “mere sleeping place” makes me wish someone would forcibly harvest one or several of your organs against your will. The fact that you can so glibly ignore the fact that the fetus is literally connected to the woman’s body and sucking nutrients and energy out of her body shows how little you care about women. If you really think there’s no difference between what a crib provides for a baby and what a woman’s body provides for a fetus, you should be culled from the human population.

          • fiona64

            “Sleeping place”? WTF?

            You are loathsome.

          • MsCongeniality

            You’ll never succeed. Here’s why: the right of a woman to have dominion over her own health and her own body is one of the most precious rights we have in this country. We fought hard for it. We get that you need to be told what to do, and it’s your right to live that kind of life. But you’ll never convince a majority of people that this freedom should be taken from us.

            But you should keep trying. It clearly gives you something to do.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry you’re too stupid to understand correct medical terminology. Really and truly.

          • Cactus_Wren

            A fetus has the right to live within the body of a woman WHO HAS CHOSEN TO GIVE BIRTH. If she does not so choose, it has no such right.

          • prolifemama

            Cactus_Wren, you are absolutely correct.
            As I stated in another post, the fetus has no legal rights. And that is the whole point of the prolife movement, as it was with the anti-slavery movement. Legal protection for all human beings, regardless of race, creed, age, place of residence, disability, gender, etc.

          • Cactus_Wren

            Exactly. For all PERSONS, from birth until death.

          • goatini

            More of the completely ludicrous “place of residence” bullshit. An eggshell is not a chicken’s “place of residence”. Hope this illustrates how batshit crazy this nutjob is.

          • fiona64

            You are being deliberately obtuse, to no one’s surprise. In order to afford rights to a zygote, as you wish to do, you must perforce *abrogate* the rights of the pregnant woman. That makes YOU the slaver, Madame Misery Pimp.

            And stop reducing the uterus to a “place of residence.” I know that you think all women are nothing but the meat around our reproductive organs, but we happen to be more than that.

            Maybe the only thing YOU have ever accomplished is proving that your gonads work, but the rest of us have been up a lot more than that.

          • prolifemama

            It is only those-who-support-abortion (TWSA) who see a battle between adversaries when they view unintentionally, or even intentionally, pregnant women.

            We prolifers see no such ongoing war, but instead recognize the mother/child relationship as the closest that exists in the human experience. ffiona, one doesn’t have to die so the other may live.

            If you re-read my original sentence, you’ll observe I state that all human beings should enjoy equal protection under the law, regardless of place of residence, among other stipulations. I do not refer solely to our unborn sisters and brothers. Hence, the comprehensive “place of residence.”

          • conversate
          • Jennifer Starr

            TWSA?

          • conversate

            http://www.watercolors.org/

            Baby killing fucks!

          • fiona64

            So much tap-dancing, so little substance …

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Place of residence” is neither comprehensive or accurate because it ignores the fact that the fetus is literally using the woman’s body to survive and build its own. It also designates an inappropriate moral neutrality to the fact that the fetus is in a woman’s body. And for that, f*** you.
            I reside in a house. I reside in the state of Oregon. I reside in Arkansas. A fetus does not “reside” in a uterus. It uses it. I understand that your brain stem appears to be the only, barely, functioning part of your brain and I’d be surprised if you could wipe your own a** without help based on the intellectual caliber you’ve shown here, but surely you understand the difference between being *in* a place rather than *literally being attached to and utterly dependent on* a place.

          • Jennifer Starr

            To call a uterus a ‘place of residence’ is highly insulting. It is a hell of a lot more than just ‘a location’.

          • fiona64

            As far as this lowlife is concerned, a woman is just the meat around the uterus. We are irrelevant to scum like her.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. The only ones who are discriminating are YOU. A fetus has the SAME ‘legal’ protection that anyone else does WITH abortion legal. By making it illegal you are granting them MORE protections than anyone born, women, especially, thereby making THEM non-persons. Oops.

            That is only ONE of the reasons why it is so OBVIOUS that it is YOUR argument that is the Pro-Slavery one. Also, slave-owners were Pro-Forced Birth, so it is ALSO an accurate ANALOGY to call your argument Pro-Slavery. Again, oops?

          • goatini

            “Population” is determined via census, which requires BIRTH, and birth records, which require BIRTH.

          • MsCongeniality

            A fetus is not part of the population. And it will exist inside my body at my pleasure, or not at all. My choice. Not yours.

            That is all.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What a crappy analogy. Is a slave attached by a conduit to the slavemaster’s body and sucking the slavemaster’s substance? Get a new argument. This one is stupid, disrespectful and boring.

        • ansuz

          “Seriously, please elaborate.”
          Too fucking tired to go into detail about How Words Work. Trying to convey the point without kicking my brain back into gear. Basically, it sounds plausible on the surface, until you realize that it relies on fucking stupid definitions of ‘medicine’ and ‘sick’ and omits the fact that even if we stick with those definitions, ‘healthcare’ is really the important word, and that word covers a much broader spectrum. It also neglects the fact that sickness, health, and medicine are what you make of them; nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so. So that’s the How Words Work bit. There’s also the How Health Insurance Works bit, which is stuff about needing to see doctors for BC and also some other things that may or may not be actually relevant. There might be more, but the NyQuil is hitting.

          “why do you hate it?”
          It’s a soundbite Gish Gallop. Also, it’s straight out of the stupid fucking Catholic ‘natural law’ playbook. That crap is an offence against human dignity. *grumbles about gender essentialism and my organs existing to enable me to live the life I want, and I get to do what I want to my body, assholes*

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s all she has–soundbites and tired talking points.

          • dudebro

            She is a Rita Joseph clone.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Of course–they’re using the same playbook. Natural law, double effect, all the ‘theology of the body’ crap.. The only thing missing is blather about UN resolutions, but that’s Rita’s baby.

          • prolifemama

            Love to meet her.

          • fiona64

            I’m sure you would. You, Liar Rose, Scabby Johnson and whackjob Rita could have a little circle jerk while you exchange asinine talking points.

          • prolifemama

            Abortion doesn’t fit the definition of “healthcare” as it is done primarily for social, and not medical, reasons.

            Thinking doesn’t change cancer into a headcold, and the vast majority of pregnancies, even in third world countries, don’t threaten maternal health or life.

            The fact that one needs to see docs for BC should tell us something about the nature of the drug. And WHO does list hormonal BC – estrogen-progestogen oral contraceptives – as Group I carcinogens.

            WHO’s a proabort org too, so their willingness to diss them by putting them on that list should tell you something about the seriousness of these compounds.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The fact that one needs to see docs for BC should tell us something about the nature of the drug

            This doesn’t even begin to make sense.

          • dudebro

            Pregnancy is a health condition. Pregnancy maims and kills. A women is less healthy when pregnant.

            And it does not matter what the ratios are of threat to health and life – by denying women the right to abortion you are saying that women, as a whole, do not have the right to be free from harm. Or the right to life.

          • dudebro

            You have to see a doc for your pregnancy. This should tell us that it is not safe

          • ansuz

            the point ——–>

            ………………..[your head]

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion is actually healthcare, as it returns one to their former state of health. The reasons they are done for are IRRELEVANT. Unless you would like to claim that a woman’s natural state is to be pregnant rather than not (in which case you would be WRONG), abortion IS healthcare.

            ALL pregnancies threaten a woman’s health or life. The fact that these threats or risks materialize OFTEN enough to warrant at LEAST a number three rating as the leading cause of death for women worldwide should tell YOU something. Besides that, if statistics are all that matter to you, more women continue pregnancies than terminate them, and that INCLUDES Pro-Choice women. Also, if statistics are all that concern you, there is NO evidence that contraception is an abortifacient and that, even if it WERE, contraception PREVENTS more abortions than it causes. But, of course, that isn’t really what you’re worried about, now IS it?

            WHO is a pro-abort org? Gee, I didn’t know they PROmoted abortions. Finally, maybe, rather than ASSuming that WHO aligned themselves with the Pro-Choice position, because their stats converge with a more Pro-Choice outlook, it might behoove you to wonder if, maybe, just MAYBE, that the Pro-Choice outlook converged with the stats so that the Pro-Choice position aligned ITSELF with the WHO organization? But that would require that you people admit you’re wrong in your quest to deny citizens assigned female at birth the same rights that everyone else has.

        • MsCongeniality

          Viagra isn’t medicine. You don’t mind paying for that, though do you?

          Dirty girl.

        • MsCongeniality

          The argument is flawed on several levels.

          1)There are all sorts of prescriptions we take when we are not sick.
          2) Certain forms of birth control are routinely used to treat medical conditions
          3) Decisions about what prescriptions I need are made with my doctor. You’re approval isn’t required.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Unless someone is forcing you, personally, to ingest contraception, no one is stopping you from following the precepts of your faith.

      • prolifemama

        By forcing those of us who oppose birth control for its abortifacient properties, to purchase it even for another’s use, is to force us to partake in the deaths of those children killed by those contraceptives.

        • Jennifer Starr

          The employee is purchasing it. Part of their compensation package. And no children will be killed by them either.

          • fiona64

            AntiChoiceMama has never worked outside the home except for volunteering at her adoption mill, I guarantee it; she has no idea how compensation packages work.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I do not think ProDeathMumu is female. I doubt it is more than 16 years old. It has never had sex nor borne a child and given birth.
            Still it is RIGHT. Right yesterday, right today, and right next year. So Right. Right down to the ground. ProDeathMumu is the proster child for right. So so right. Rightness is ProDeathMumu.

        • fiona64

          Once again, your remarks warrant a single-word response: bullshit.

        • Arekushieru

          You are ‘partaking’ in a lot MORE deaths (*fetal* AND maternal) by denying women these contraceptive services. Oops.

        • goatini

          Birth control doesn’t have ANY “abortifacient properties”, and it’s the vicious hateful fake “Christians” such as yourself who want to impose your Sharia law on innocent citizens.

        • MsCongeniality

          Birth control doesn’t cause abortions, and nobody is asking you to purchase it for anybody.

        • Ivy Mike

          Why do you people constantly ignore the fact that you are 100% incorrect about hormonal BC’s “abortifacient properties”?

          Your “beliefs” are irrelevant to the discussion. You are factually, scientifically WRONG. You are also attempting to force the law to your way of thinking based on this incorrectness.

          Why in the world do you think your fantasies (and that is, especially in this case, what they precisely are) should be used as a guide to national policy?!? That’s like someone who believes in dragons demanding that the DoD create a special branch of dragon-combat Soldiers and equipment. It’s insanity.

          You aren’t being forced, by anyone, to use medications you don’t want to. However, your fantasies don’t cover others.

    • fiona64

      Hormonal birth control isn’t medicine.

      Just another anti-choice lie …

    • Arekushieru

      Oh, really? My mom would love to hear about THIS. You see, over the years, my mom has developed several health issues. A tumour on her spine, removal of her adrenal glands and part of her kidneys (due to kidney cancer), as well as developing lung cancer. But the very first issue was with the organs that are involved in reproduction. As a result of fibroids (you ARE aware of where they come from, right? And that they occur as ‘naturally’ as fertility, right?) on her ovaries, she developed heavy periods and had to have a radical hysterectomy. Tell me, how WASN’T my mother sick because she was fertile with regards to the SAME organic functions that are addressed by birth control?

      Also, it would probably do you good (although, as a rule you anti-choicers tend to avoid anything associated with the word) to read an article that has been linked to on here quite regularly as to why human females have periods. Then you wouldn’t say that being fertile isn’t a sickness, in either case.

      Besides that, I absolutely LOATHE the idea of ever getting pregnant and giving birth. So, basically, you’re telling me that because I don’t think I or anyone like me should be forced to endure a very real consequence of that fertility, whether it be through rape or consensual sex, I should either have my freedom to practice or refrain from sex, restricted more than my male counterparts OR I should be forced to undergo a very risky surgery that is usually only offered under circumstances of extreme risks to your health and life, which is, again, something that my male counterparts will never have to fear facing, all because biology? You do know that biology is nothing more than a stroke of chance, right? If so, why does your ilk insist upon putting humans above all other animals, then treating women as equivalent to livestock? You DO know that doing nothing about biological sexism is the exact same as supporting it, right? RIGHT?

      It always seems funny (sick funny, not weird or haha, but sick, funny)

    • Arekushieru

      What about the EMPLOYEES religious beliefs? These companies are certainly infringing on THEIR rights, now, AREN’T they? Their religious beliefs are certainly not the ONLY interpretation that can be had, either loosely or strictly, of EITHER the bible or the faith, itself, just so ya know.

      Groups such AS Hobby Lobby had no problem providing insurance coverage for contraception before the ACA came into existence. Where were their religious objections, THEN? Or is it just that now poor people are going to be granted the same right to life that religious fanatics want to grant to fetuses, that they have now raised an objection?

      If Hobby Lobby wants to act as a religious organization rather than a corporate one, then, just as they strip women of their tax exempt status by purchasing insurance for contraceptive coverage through their employer, they should lose their tax exempt status as a religiously affiliated employer.

      As if ONLY Pro-Lifers could be Christian. In fact, the only true practicing Christians I have met have always been Pro-Choice.

      Controlled and punished for your faith? No, the only times your ilk has been controlled and punished for that is when you have already attempted to control and punish OTHERS. YOU are NOT the ones being put upon and oppressed. It has been that way for a LONG time. AS a Christian, I KNOW this.

    • goatini

      Pregnancy is a medical condition.

      And vicious fake “Christians” such as yourself screech lies the loudest when YOU are prevented from controlling and punishing others who wisely aren’t buying your anti-American hate speech against female US citizens and their rights.

    • Ivy Mike

      Tell me, does whatever you have that passes for a “conscience” ever twitch a bit when you mindlessly parrot talking points conjured up by an organization that spent decades protecting pedophiles, rapists, abusers, and killers?

  • fiona64

    treated as sub-, even non-human

    You mean, the way you treat born, sapient, sentient women?

    Oh, and your description? is asinine coming from someone who says that a woman should be forced to undergo salpingectomy for ectopic pregnancy rather than use methotrexate. Which, BTW, is the main reason that your citation is, you know, out of date.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Oooh, surgical details, yummy. Shall I tell you about my strabismus procedure?

    • fiona64

      Maybe I’ll follow up with the details of my thoracic outlet decompression. Maybe even with photos, since ProLieMama is so big on trying to make things as gory as possible.

  • Arekushieru

    Nope, it is YOUR attempts to relegate a uterus to nothing more than a place of residence that is one of the many superficial reasons the WOMAN is treated as sub-, even non-human.

    So? If you’re so concerned about that, what about what is done to the woman’s body during pregnancy AND childbirth? Oops?

  • goatini

    No such thing as an “unborn child” – you are not an “undead corpse”. I can hear you panting as you rub one out over your hate porn.

    • prolifemama

      Aw, goatini – this is the sweetest thing you’ve ever said to me!

      • goatini

        Your entire purpose in trolling here is to masturbate to mental images of innocent female victims with unwanted pregnancies being chained to beds for 9 months.

  • goatini

    Below is some ACTUAL proDEATH hate speech against female US citizens, posted recently to RHRC. I want to see that vicious liar proDEATHmofo defend THIS – we all know THIS is what she thinks should happen to innocent female US citizens with tragic pregnancy diagnoses!

    //In the case where the mother might be killed during child birth, it would actually be better to save the fetus at the mother’s expense. After all, the mother may very well never be able to bring another fetus to term. So as they say, out with the old & in with the new.//

    • conversate

      He’s also trying to push buttons, on top of being an asshat.

      • goatini

        But you DO know that this is what the Catholic Church thinks of women. It’s why they proscribe contraception – so that they can kill the flawed livestock off in childbirth, freeing the male owner to go buy a new cow.

        • MsCongeniality

          Its what conservative men of all faiths think of women. All those binders full of us.

        • conversate

          Yeppers.

  • conversate
  • fiona64

    Do you really think women are so stupid as NOT to know that the option when pregnant is either to gestate or to terminate? That they do not know their own financial and health situations? For Christ’s sake, woman, pull your head out of your ass and stop infantalizing others of your gender.

    Being pressured into choosing one or another option, is coercion,

    Thanks for admitting what we already know: that the anti-choice position is coercive.

  • Ivy Mike

    Sigh. I go out of the country for a few months and the forced-birthers’ arguments never change. Same talking points, same “debate” tactics they’ve been using for 40-odd years now.

    Same laughable “concern” for the actual women involved, too.

  • Arekushieru

    By YOUR logic, since slaves were denied equal rights on the SAME basis as your ilk would deny rights to women (especially female slaves as they were forced to give birth to their forced birther rapist slave-owners’ offspring), [they] deserved far better than being granted freedom because, like women, they would not understand how to exercise their right to liberty. Oops.

    Also, termination and continuation of a pregnancy are the only ways to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption is a way to deal with an unwanted child. And YOU only offer one option. One option does not equal choice. WE offer BOTH options. More than one option DOES equal choice. Again, oops?