Five Reasons Contraceptive Coverage Is Essential


Read more of our coverage on the Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood cases here.

On Tuesday, the Supreme Court hears Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby Stores, which argues that the birth control benefit in the Affordable Care Act (ACA) is a direct attack on religious freedom of for-profit companies.

As an OB-GYN and a patient advocate, I want to move the discussion out of the courts for a moment and into my clinic, to focus on the lives of women and their families. I feel an immense sense of responsibility to the women I care for, and part of that responsibility includes advocating for insurance coverage of birth control.

Here are my top five reasons for why contraceptive coverage is essential and needs to be protected.

1. Contraception saves lives. I realized this the moment I placed my patient Rosa’s intrauterine device (IUD) while she was in the ICU for a condition called peripartum cardiomyopathy, a cause of heart failure during pregnancy. Rosa (not her real name) was transferred to our hospital in florid heart failure and suffered a stillbirth at eight months of pregnancy. While I was counseling Rosa on her contraceptive options, she told me that she had wanted an IUD after her first pregnancy, when she faced similar complications. However, she was unable to get an IUD then because of restrictions on contraception at the religiously affiliated institution where she received medical care at the time. Fortunately, I saw her at a facility where she could utilize her insurance and get the care she needed. Rosa’s story is similar to that of many women for whom pregnancy can be life-threatening. Ensuring access to the full spectrum of contraception is a vital part of comprehensive women’s health care.

2. Contraception helps build healthy families and healthy communities. Half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended. Women with unplanned pregnancies are at greater risk for preterm birth, low birth weight, and delayed prenatal care, whereas planned pregnancies have better birth outcomes. Numerous studies have shown that increased access to contraception leads to a reduction in unintended pregnancy and birth rates, leading to healthier outcomes for mothers, babies, and families.

3. Contraception is one of public health’s top ten greatest achievements. It’s right up there with vaccines and water sanitation. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, access to contraception has improved birth spacing and has led to smaller families, which in turn “have contributed to the better health of infants, children, and women, and have improved the social and economic role of women.” The young women I see in my clinic are from all walks of life but many will be the first in their families to graduate high school and attend college without having their dreams interrupted by an unintended pregnancy. Contraception is as valuable as any other preventive public health measure that has made a positive impact on our society and thus, like clean water, should be accessible to all.

4. Contraceptive coverage would allow a woman to choose the method that is right for her, not just the one that fits her budget. From 2007 to 2011, the Contraceptive CHOICE Project conducted a large prospective cohort study of almost 10,000 women in the St. Louis area to determine what would happen if cost was not a factor for women seeking birth control. The study found that when financial barriers were removed, 75 percent of the study’s participants chose a long-acting, highly effective method (an IUD or contraceptive implant), which typically has a high up-front cost of hundreds of dollars. In today’s economy, when families are struggling to pay for basic needs, the cost of contraception can be overwhelming. Cost should not be a limiting factor to the provision of quality preventive care. Not every woman can use a generic pill or other lower cost birth control methods. It is critical that women have coverage for the full range of Food and Drug Administration-approved contraceptive methods so health-care providers can work with each patient to determine what works best for them.

5. Contraception has many health benefits. In addition to preventing pregnancy, some contraceptive methods can also decrease the risk of pelvic inflammatory disease and ovarian and uterine cancers, and treat other gynecologic conditions such as endometriosis and heavy bleeding. As a resident, I cared for Patty (not her real name), who was diabetic, struggling with infertility, and who also had irregular bleeding because of a condition called endometrial hyperplasia, which carries a risk of uterine cancer. After she and I came to the decision of optimizing her overall health and treating her condition before she would resume trying to become pregnant, I was able to place her hormonal IUD, which resolved her hyperplasia as her overall health improved. She and her husband now have a beautiful daughter, and Patty continues to use an IUD.

Affordable family planning services are essential to building healthy families and communities. I hope that when the Supreme Court justices consider the Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby Stores case, they recognize the value of contraceptive coverage to all Americans.

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To schedule an interview with Dr. Tania Basu please contact Communications Director Rachel Perrone at rachel@rhrealitycheck.org.

  • fiona64

    Excellent article.

    Now, cue the (almost always men) protestors complaining that if women can’t afford the most appropriate form of contraception for themselves, or find the less expensive options inefficacious, they could keep an aspirin between their knees …

  • radicalhw

    This case is about women’s civil rights, full stop. Thank you for your voice from the front lines.

  • KingMeIam

    Five reasons insurance coverage isn’t essential:

    1. Its cheap
    2. It’s available everywhere.
    3. It’s cheap
    4. It’s available everywhere.
    5. Oh yeah, it’s cheap.

  • lonleylibertarian

    OK – so I accept your principle – contraceptive coverage matters and should be aggressively supported and provided. But now let’s move the to question of how it should be paid for.

    80% of US adults have a cell phone – Cable – Big screen TV penetration are not far behind. So what you would argue is that someone else should pay – or help pay for these things – even though a significant percent of the female – and family population are perfectly capable of paying for this on their own.

    Forcing someone else to pay for something I need is theft – unless I can’t afford it – and then it is either welfare or charity.

    I am all for making contraception readily and inexpensively available – hell – let’s hand out free condoms and birth control pills at sports events. But mucking up insurance with this stuff is silly, inefficient and stupid.

    • Arekushieru

      Seriously, Fiona couldn’t have been more right. You people really DON’T understand how insurance works, DO you? HOW many times must we tell YOU PEOPLE that just because contraception may be removed from the insurance mandate does NOT mean your premiums will go down, before you fucking get it? Why do you THINK they won’t go down? Perhaps because everyone is paying into the pot and everyone gets out of the pot what they NEED. Just because someone needs some things more than you do IS NOT THEIR FAULT, after all. ESPECIALLY if they’re women. Thinking that way makes you simply a male chauvinist pig (although, that’s an insult to pigs).

      • KingMeIam

        How many oil changes has your auto insurance paid for?

        • L-dan

          I don’t know…point me to auto insurance designed to cover maintenance of a car and I’ll get back to you. Because that would be lovely.

          Last I checked, health insurance has not primarily been about catastrophic coverage in my lifetime. That sort of coverage exists…and it’s usually pretty crummy at even covering catastrophic events well. But it’s not what most people with insurance have.

          It has never been about making sure those damaged by your use of your body receive compensation.

          So…have any more apples to compare to these oranges?

          • Shan

            Don’t bother. It’s impervious to logic.

          • L-dan

            Now I’m actually wondering if it’s a decent business model to provide car maintenance services in the sense of “pay x per month and someone will schedule to come pick your car up, run it to the shop, cover all the basic recommended maintenance, etc.”

          • Shan

            LOL! Was thinking the same thing earlier! They already have that for homeowners. I know this, because one of them keeps spamming my email asking me to buy it for something like $350-400 a month.

          • expect_resistance

            Fabulous idea. :)
            (Sorry this is trailing off topic.) The Lift Garage in Minneapolis, MN is a non-profit that provides free or low-cost car repairs. Their goal is to empower people who are low-income with reliable auto transportation. They understand jobs aren’t always on the bus line.

          • fiona64

            When I had a leased automobile, all of the preventive maintenance was covered. When I bought my car, I pre-paid the maintenance to cover the warranty period. It’s not always available, but I took advantage of it.

          • L-dan

            I’ve been debating a lease the next time I go car shopping. We’ll see what they look like then (hopefully at least 3 years out.)

          • fiona64

            Always has been, no matter which handle it was using (it’s 5×5, baby …)

          • expect_resistance

            For sure.

          • KingMeIam

            Well I guess that’s why insurance premiums are so high. You’re probably OK with that so just keep insurance the way it is – paying for things you could easily buy yourself for cheaper.

          • L-dan

            *gasp* Insurance premiums are high because the cost of health care is high? I’d never have guessed that from the incessant coverage of that very point when talking about the cost of health care in the U.S.

            However, I have yet to see anything that indicates that the high cost of health care has anything to do with covering things one could buy for themselves for less. There are a few instances (like Medicare’s penis pumps) that pop out, but mostly it seems to be far more complicated than that with prescription drug costs as a very minor issue.

            Additionally, contraception is generally considered pretty neutral as far as actual costs to insurers since it reduces the costs of covering pregnancy, childbirth, and additional kids on the plan…balanced by the fact that you’re getting something monthly/quarterly for the periodic methods.

          • Ramanusia

            It’s not neutral, contraception saves $3-$6 dollars for every dollar spent.

          • expect_resistance

            That makes no sense.

          • Shan

            “That makes no sense.”

            That’s because I don’t think he understands that BC coverage doesn’t cost extra when it’s added to an insurance plan or cost less when it’s removed.

        • HeilMary1

          How many of you married holy mother killers abstain 100% from marital and extra marital sex if you and your conquests can’t afford family planning? $1,200 BC pills and $5,000,000 infected c-sections are a lot more expensive than $25 oil changes, KingJackass.

          • KingMeIam

            You pay $1200 for OCP? You must be an idiot. Tell me what, why don’t you tell us all what pill you take.

          • Shan

            Without insurance, that’s how much it can cost.

          • KingMeIam

            Which one? Be specific. I’ll show you a much less expensive alternative for much less.

            And please, don’t start with the “different pills don’t work the same” bullshit. I know different pills are slightly different. But that doesn’t mean they don’t work. It’s like the idiots that claim that they can tell the difference between generics and name-brand pills, which has been scientifically proven to be a placebo effect.

          • Shan

            “Which one? Be specific. I’ll show you a much less expensive alternative for much less.”

            What, you’re the OCP price-shopper now? Jeez, I wish I’d known you YEARS ago.

            My example was my friend at work. She pays $85 a month for BC and it was prescribed for non-contraceptive reasons but her husband’s insurance won’t cover it as of a couple of weeks ago (i.e., post-ACA). I don’t know what type it is so I can’t send you off on a price check, sorry. I already tried to tell her that she should be getting it for no copay and didn’t get very far so I’m not really going to be comfortable saying “Hey, what’s your prescription for? Some random guy on the Internet said he could find it for cheaper than what you’re paying now and I think he can find you a better deal!”

          • expect_resistance

            Costs are all across the board. I get frustrated with the tier one, two, three crap.

          • Shan

            Yeah, but I find one benefit of this all this back-and-forth is that I found out that I can get my monthly meds cheaper at Dillon’s than I’ve been getting them at Walgreens.

          • goatini

            But since many generics are reverse-engineered (you didn’t really think the pharmaceutical companies gave out their recipes when drugs go off-patent – or maybe you did…), and since many generics use completely different binders and excipients (because the brand-name manufacturer has patents on their binders and excipients), you would be completely wrong.

          • KingMeIam

            Yeah, the FDA disagrees with you. Shocking.

          • goatini

            Funny how the self-proclaimed “libertarians” all of a sudden put their total faith into a government agency. If it supports their bullshit, that is.

          • KingMeIam

            Funny, how you ignore the scientific studies that they used to declare that generics are statistically the same as name brand meds.

            But whatever. Pay more for your meds, see if I care.

          • goatini

            Like I said, “libertarians” hate The State… until they need it to support their bullshit.

          • KingMeIam

            Base the claims on the state or independent verification, you’re still wrong about generics vs name-brand med.

            FYI.

          • goatini

            Actually, I’m correct, and I’m pretty sure it chaps your ass.

          • KingMeIam

            Why?, because you posted an article about medication that didn’t meet the bioequivalence FDA spec that’s your proof?

            Hint: the drug was pulled. That’s proof that I’m the one who was correct. Not you.

          • goatini

            It was a news story about one medication, since, you know, it was in THE NEWS. I see you’re no speed reader, since you missed this part:

            “…generic drugs diverge from the originals far more than most of us believe. For starters, it’s not as if the maker of the original pharmaceutical hands over its manufacturing blueprint when its patent runs out or is challenged. The patent reveals the components, but it doesn’t explain how to make the drug. In reality, manufacturing a generic requires reverse engineering, and the result is an approximation rather than a duplicate of the original.

            There are other differences. The generic must contain the same active ingredient as the original. But the additional ingredients, known as excipients, can be different and are often of lower quality. Those differences can affect what’s called bioavailability — the amount of drug that could potentially be absorbed into the bloodstream. As the American Heart Association recently noted, “Some additives traditionally thought to be inert, such as alcohol sugars, cyclodextrans, and polysorbate-80, may alter a drug’s dissolution, thereby impacting its bioavailability.”

          • expect_resistance

            Weak argument. “FYI” Really?

          • KingMeIam

            LOL?

            Better?

            TL:DR?

            ROTFL?

          • expect_resistance

            Are you having a meltdown?

          • KingMeIam

            Yes. Most certainly.

          • expect_resistance

            Congrats.

          • expect_resistance

            Libertarians are some of the biggest whiners of all time. I have never heard more gripping, complaining, and whining from anyone else.

          • goatini

            I have hard-core libertarians in my intimate social set, and I must admit, you are correct :-)

          • expect_resistance

            Me too. A very good friend of mine is and we argue, but she respects me because I’m an anarchist. Although I’m not sure she knows what that is. I can deal with her/their weirdness as long as there is respectful dialog, but Kingdumbfuc is not engaging in honest dialog.

          • goatini

            “Are generics really identical to the branded products they are meant to replicate? To a surprising degree, they say, the answer is no.”

            Fortune Magazine discusses a recent case:

            http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2013/01/10/generic-drugs-quality/

          • L-dan

            Thanks for the link.

          • expect_resistance

            You are like a little barking dog. Not all medications have a generic version. Do you you understand patent laws? Quit barking.

          • KingMeIam

            Did I claim that all medication have a generic? No?

            Then STFU.

          • expect_resistance

            No you just assumed that there is a less expensive generic and we are stupid for not getting it. FU. SH.

          • KingMeIam

            There probably is. Why don’t you ask Shan to tell us the specific drug and I’ll go check for her.

          • expect_resistance

            No do your own research. Don’t live off of others work. That’s not very libertarian of you.

          • KingMeIam

            Again, I don’t think you know what “libertarian” means.

            I think the word you’re looking for is “conspiracy theorist.” Are you an Alex Jones fan?

          • lady_black

            Birth control pills aren’t like when the store is out of your favorite brand of beer, so you just buy another one. Generic drugs ARE the exact same drugs as name brands. The problem is all drugs don’t have a generic substitute.

          • KingMeIam

            “Generic drugs ARE the exact same drugs as name brands”

            You’d better watch out. That’s crazy talk around here.

          • expect_resistance

            Bullshit.

          • KingMeIam

            http://www . fda . gov/Drugs/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/QuestionsAnswers/ucm100100 . htm

          • goatini

            OMG a libertarian posts information from The Evil State to defend his bullshit! Hell has frozen over…

          • KingMeIam

            I don’t think “libertarian” means what you think it means.

          • goatini

            Au contraire, I’ve spent the last two decades hanging out with libertarians in my intimate social set. The hardcore Austrian School, “Republican Liberty Caucuses” crew; personal friends of Llewellyn Rockwell, fans of Murray Rothbard; “von Mises Institute” t-shirt wearing guys. I’ve attended libertarian functions and was introduced to their friend Ron Paul. I think you have no idea what “libertarian” means.

          • expect_resistance

            Do tell.

          • goatini

            I think his panties are in a bunch because my libertarian creds outrank his.

          • expect_resistance

            Oh no. What shall we do?

          • expect_resistance

            I’ll repeat, Tell us how much did you spend on gas this month? The cost of gas is lower because of gas subsidies. If you drive a car you benefit from this. Your roads are maintained by tax dollars. Did you build and maintain the roads you drive on?

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you got your medical degree from? Oh that’s right. You don’t have a medical degree, let alone any other kind.

          • kimbriel

            Not all women can take the cheaper, generic pills. Says the OB-GYN in this article. Do you know more than she does about women’s health issues?

          • HeilMary1

            Didn’t have insurance for many years, so I paid full price for acne-fighting bc pills on top of bi-annual exams to get those prescriptions.

          • expect_resistance

            Tell us how much did you spend on gas this month? The cost of gas is lower because of gas subsidies. If you drive a car you benefit from this. Your roads are maintained by tax dollars. Did you build and maintain the roads you drive on?

        • expect_resistance

          How many times has your car been pregnant?

          • Ella Warnock

            Probably as many times as zis teeth have been. Cuz brushing your teeth prevents pregnancy, or something. Who the fuck knows, really.

          • expect_resistance

            Okay now I’m imagining a pregnant car bushing its teeth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            LOL–what an image. There was that show–My Mother the Car? Quite a bit before my time, but I’ve heard of it.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, “My Mother the Car is an American fantasy sitcom which aired for a single season on NBC between September 14, 1965 and April 5, 1966. A total of 30 episodes were produced by United Artists Television.”

            Could it be cheeper in the long run to breed cars?

          • HeilMary1

            You didn’t miss anything!

          • KingMeIam

            Never. But if I didn’t bother to change the oil because I thought it insurance should take care of it, I might end up with a fried engine.

            derp derp

          • expect_resistance

            I was raised by a mechanic. I know how to do an oil change and more. Derp, deep.

          • KingMeIam

            Do you know how to go to the store and buy condoms?

          • expect_resistance

            Yep, I know how to do a lot of things with condoms. Derp derp.

          • Shan

            LOL! Do you know how to hand your life over to someone who may or may not know how to use them properly?

          • KingMeIam

            “Do you know how to hand your life over to someone who may or may not know how to use them properly?”

            - Said every man that hopes that his girlfriend/wife is using the pill correctly and didn’t miss any days.

          • Shan

            “Said every man that hopes that his girlfriend/wife is using the pill correctly and didn’t miss any days.”

            He should use a condom every time. Condoms are cheap, remember?

          • KingMeIam

            “Condoms are cheap, remember?”

            So are oral birth control pills. And the IUD.

          • Shan

            I’ve bought condoms. Have you ever bought an IUD?

          • KingMeIam

            I paid 50% for my girlfriend to get an IUD. I paid $350 of the $700 it cost us.

            So yes.

          • Shan

            “I paid 50% for my girlfriend to get an IUD. I paid $350 of the $700 it cost us.”

            Whose insurance plan covered it?

          • KingMeIam

            None. It was out of pocket.

          • Shan

            Y’all got robbed.

          • KingMeIam

            How so? If I remember correctly, the first doc we talked to wanted $1200. The second $900.

            We did some research online and the cheapest was about $400. We found a guy who was willing to do $500, but he seemed sketchy.

            Either way, that was 7 years ago. It should last 10 years. That’s $700/10 = $70 per year = Just under $6/month. That’s pretty reasonable in my opinion.

          • Shan

            So good for y’all for being sensible and shopping around. But that also says to me that she didn’t have insurance that covered it. Why’s that? Was she less than 30hrs per week at her job?

          • KingMeIam

            Because her student healthcare at the time didn’t cover it. It also didn’t cover dental or vision.

            Ya see, people are able to get medical care even when their insurance doesn’t cover it. It’s not impossible like some liberals would have you believe.

          • Shan

            “It’s not impossible like some liberals would have you believe.”

            That’s not what liberals believe.

          • HeilMary1

            Catholic-controlled areas keep IUDs criminal, unavailable and unaffordable.

          • HeilMary1

            Rethugs and Teatards want to ban “baby killing” IUDs.

          • lady_black

            Why wouldn’t HER insurance cover it?

          • KingMeIam

            I don’t know. It was student insurance. It didn’t cover a lot of things.

          • HeilMary1

            A CATHOLIC college, no doubt. You two were fornicating!

          • expect_resistance

            “You two were fornicating!” OMG I just laughed and spit my wine up. I can just hear the church lady saying that. No doubt a “”mortal”” SIN. **eyeroll** :)))

          • goatini

            Then use a condom, each and every time.

            I’m an equal opportunity contraceptionist. Each and every sexually active person, male or female, who does not wish to procreate, should always use their own contraception, each and every time. You think I believed the guys who said “I’ve had a vasectomy” or “I’m only firing blanks, I’m sterile”? I did my due diligence and protected myself. It would behoove you to do the same.

          • KingMeIam

            Great, I’m glad you’re being responsible. That’s a good start. Now you can pay for it yourself – just like men do.

          • goatini

            Insurance doesn’t cover OTC contraception, whether it’s condoms, or foam/jelly. Let me know when medically prescribed contraception for males is available.

          • L-dan

            Wouldn’t that be great? For a variety of reasons, really.

          • lady_black

            It is… in India. When it comes here, it will be covered by insurance.

          • Shan

            “When it comes here, it will be covered by insurance”

            Bloody well better be if for no other reason than to shut up the Melams.

          • expect_resistance

            Condoms are not gender specific. Just because a condom is used on a dick doesn’t mean women are not buying them. You assume incorrectly that men buy all condoms and women get free birth control pills. Wrong.

          • KingMeIam

            OCP are not gender specific. Just because it is ingested by a female doesn’t mean men aren’t buying them. You assume incorrectly that woman buy all birth control pills.

            Derp.

          • expect_resistance

            That is the most idiotic thing I’ve read today. You have no idea what you are talking about. You sound very naive and immature. I feel sorry for you.

          • KingMeIam

            Wait, so I just took your words and applied the same ideology to OCP that you did to condoms….and now it’s the most idiotic thing you’ve read today. Nice. You sound very naive and immature. I feel sorry for you.

          • expect_resistance

            Not even close but nice try.

          • KingMeIam

            You really should read the things that you are replying to. That way you wouldn’t get confused so much.

          • expect_resistance

            You should listen to your own advice.

          • expect_resistance

            Paranoid? Use a condom or two.

          • KingMeIam

            Paranoid? Take the pill. Use a diapragm. Get your tubes tied.

          • goatini

            All of which are medically prescribed contraception.

          • KingMeIam

            You got a prescription to get your tubes tied?

          • Shan

            Yes. Your doctor gives you a piece of paper and you take it to the pharmacist and they do it right there in the window. Or in the drive-thru of they have one of those.

          • goatini

            It’s a medically prescribed procedure. Dumbass.

          • expect_resistance

            The stupid it burns. He’s just a time sucking troll we should stop feeding it.

          • expect_resistance

            I hear Walmart does them for free now. No need for that pesky prescription. – yes *eyeroll******

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s called surgery? Which is covered by insurance? You do know what a surgery is, right?

          • expect_resistance

            I’m afraid to hear his answer.

          • expect_resistance

            You assume I’m having sex with a penis. You’re so hetrosexist.

          • fiona64

            You just outed yourself, 5×5 … again.

          • KingMeIam

            Yeah, I’m straight. Thanks though.

          • goatini

            Do you know that no one can make a male wear a condom except the male himself?

          • KingMeIam

            Do you know that no one can make a female correctly use OCP except the female herself?

          • goatini

            Like I said, I’m an equal opportunity contraceptionist. If you don’t want to procreate, be responsible for your own contraception. Males AND females.

          • KingMeIam

            I’m an equal opportunity contraceptionist too.

            That’s why you should pay for it yourself – just like men do.

          • goatini

            Let me know when there’s prescription contraception for men. Prescription contraception for females is much more effective than OTC foams and jellies.

          • KingMeIam

            So you’re for making birth control pills OTC.

            Cool. So am I.

          • goatini

            Oh, right, Mister DIY IUD.

          • KingMeIam

            Is an IUD “birth control pills?”

            Oh, did you get confused?

          • goatini

            No, just pointing out that a guy who thinks that IUDs should be DIY isn’t any kind of expert as to whether oral contraception should be OTC.

          • KingMeIam

            I didn’t say IUD should be DIY. I was pretty clear about that.

            But reeding iz hard

          • expect_resistance

            Like hell you didn’t. “I was pretty clear about that.” Hysterically funny. Are you drunk?

          • KingMeIam

            Why don’t you quote me.

          • expect_resistance

            You do love the sound of your own voice.

          • KingMeIam

            Funny thing is. You probably went to go quote me…and then after reading the thread realized that I never advocated anyone inserting their own IUD, quite the opposite.

            The only thing I did state is that the procedure (which I linked to) is very basic and is not complicated at all.

            But please proceed

          • expect_resistance

            Read your own words for the answer.

          • KingMeIam

            My own words were about people giving themselves injectable depot shots.

            Then you chimed in and told me that IUD aren’t DIY, which had nothing to do with my comment.

            So I replied:”I’m not advocating that I’m just saying it’s not very difficult. ”

            Are you up caught up now?

          • Jennifer Starr

            This is what’s known as backtracking. You actually thought that tampons went into the uterus. That’s just embarrassing.

          • KingMeIam

            You’re going to have to quote me where I wrote that tampons go into the uterus. Good luck.

          • expect_resistance

            No we don’t. We have collective knowledge.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You compared putting in an IUD to putting in a tampon. I don’t know what you might have heard, but you don’t need a speculum and dilate your cervix to insert a tampon. Like I said, embarrassing.

          • expect_resistance

            Every time I read “tampon into the uterus” I cringe.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            lol, how embarrassing indeed

          • lady_black

            Depot shots? Really?

          • expect_resistance

            Laughing:))))

          • expect_resistance

            Sure, you are clear as mud.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You realize that the cervix is not normally dilated, right? That’s why when you put a tampon in, you don’t have to worry about accidentally pushing it up through your vagina into the uterus. So actually, yes, it would be quite difficult to do by yourself, and quite dangerous as well.

          • goatini

            Except you provided a link with directions and said “It’s not very difficult”, Mister DIY IUD.

          • expect_resistance

            I am very DIY but I would not do a DIY IUD installation. There is a big difference between changing a tire and inserting an IUD. The child king is very clueless and just wants to stomp his feet around because he is insecure.

          • lady_black

            Yeah you did. The thing is, nobody inserts their own IUD, Not even female physicians. Anatomy is such that visualizing your own cervix is impossible. And it has to be kept sterile. Principles like that are beyond your comprehension, because to you, it’s just like a tampon. Except tampons don’t even go in the same place, nor is aseptic technique required to use one.

          • KingMeIam

            Why don’t you quote me where I said IUD should be DIY.

            Oh, and the technique isn’t aseptic. Sterile equipment is used to reduce the risk of infection, but the vaginal canal (and yes the device goes up through the vagina and then into the uterus) is not free from bacteria and therefore the technique is not aseptic. Would you like me to explain the sterility of colon surgery as well?

          • lady_black

            Of course aseptic technique is used! The uterus is a sterile cavity. The colon is not a sterile cavity. The vaginal tissues are moved out of the way by a sterile speculum so they do not contaminate the device during insertion. You aren’t too knowledgeable about such things, are you? The IUD had better be sterile, or the woman is going to have big problems.

          • lady_black

            Oh and thank you for not practicing medicine. Or nursing. You’re an idiot. You would probably muck up donning sterile gloves. Your hands aren’t sterile either. That’s why they never touch a sterile field.

          • expect_resistance

            If he is practicing medicine I am never going to the doctor hospital again.

          • Shan

            “So you’re for making birth control OTC.”

            Some can be, some can’t. Just like pain meds and antihistamines. Some work, some don’t. It’s the patient/doctor decision.

          • KingMeIam

            “It’s the patient/doctor decision.”

            It’s the patient/doctor decision to whether medication is OTC or not?

            Why don’t you at least try to reply to the comments in context.

          • Shan

            “It’s the patient/doctor decision to whether medication is OTC or not?

            Why don’t you at least try to reply to the comments in context.”

            I’m not in context? If I go to my doc and my doc says “take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning” my doc is sending me OTC just as he would you, right? What’s your issue with that?

          • KingMeIam

            The topic being discussed was changing medication from prescription to OTC.

            Hi Mr. Scrollbar, meet Mrs. Shan.

            Scroll up.

          • Shan

            Dude, you asked the question. I answered.

            You said: you’re for making BC OTC.

            I said: cool, if it works medically

            Then you got weird.

          • KingMeIam

            I can’t believe I’m actually wasting my time with you.

            1. I stated that OCP should be OTC
            2. You stated. “It’s the patient/doctor decision.” And you were wrong. It’s the FDA’s decision.

            Comprende?

          • Shan

            “Comprende?”

            Nope, you didn’t. Wait until they come out with multiple versions of the male BC and see how it works out for you.

          • KingMeIam

            I didn’t what? Understand that I stated that OCP should be OTC?

            Let’s review. Me, 4 hours ago: “So you’re for making birth control pills OTC. Cool. So am I.”

            Did you miss that. Did you forget to scroll up and read the thread again?

            You have a hard time following a conversation. Have you been diagnosed with ADHD, because there are drugs for that. I’ll put a link for you if you want it.

          • Shan

            ” You stated. “It’s the patient/doctor decision.”

            That was about the patient/doctor decision as to whether the medication the patient takes is OTC or not. Like I said, some OTC meds work for some patients, some don’t. It’s between the patient and doctor to figure out whether OTC or prescription is the best treatment.

          • L-dan

            Hmm, nope. My Dr. can tell me to go home and take some ibuprofin, or they can write me a prescription for the higher dosage ibuprofin.

            If OTC allergy stuff isn’t working for me, they can prescribe similar but stronger stuff.

            Which is what Shan was pointing out.

            Still, you’re damn repetitive with this nonsense.

            One. More. Time. Even making those pills OTC isn’t going to eliminate prescription birth control. IUDs will never be OTC. Injectable contraception is very unlikely to ever be OTC unless they devise inexpensive Star Trek-like hyposprays for it.

            You shift the goalpoasts every other post and have yet to come up with a good reason contraception shouldn’t be considered basic preventative health care and required to be included in insurance plans.

          • expect_resistance

            Very flipping repetitive. He doesn’t get it and doesn’t want to understand. It’s just trolling for attention. I don’t try to understand his motives but just looking at the behavior.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He purposely tries to be obnoxious, and then when he gets banned, he’ll cry foul and whine and stamp his feet and talk about how he tried to be ‘civil’ , when he was never any such thing.

          • expect_resistance

            So what? Who the hell cares? Quit whining already.

          • expect_resistance

            Men don’t have babies. Until then they can STFU.

          • KingMeIam

            I guess I can stop STFU now.

            http://abcnews . go . com/Health/story?id=5302756&page=1

          • expect_resistance

            Wear a frikin condom. Derp, derp duh.

          • KingMeIam

            Take your pills. Derp, derp, duh.

          • expect_resistance

            I don’t take pills deep derp.

          • Shan

            “Do you know that no one can make a female correctly use OCP except the female herself?”

            That’s why you should buy your own condoms.

          • KingMeIam

            That’s why you should buy birth control pills on your own.

          • goatini

            One of these things is not like the other…

            One of these things is OTC while the other is prescription medication…

            Geez, when you have to get down to Sesame Street to explain to an alleged adult, it’s pretty sad.

          • KingMeIam

            Great, so make OCP OTC and then pay for it yourself. Every one would be happy.

          • HeilMary1

            The RCC/GOP would start WWIII to prevent female contraceptives from becoming OTC.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, sometimes you have to break it down and digest it for them and explain it in great detail. *sigh*

          • Shan

            So what do you do when you’re ready to get it on?

            “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours and prove it’s been used correctly.”

          • expect_resistance

            I love condoms. Do you know you can put a condom over a 2 liter bottle? I have carry an unlubed condom in my survival kit to carry water. Yes, many uses for condoms. What the hell is your point?

        • colleen2

          Perhaps if you allowed you wife and daughters to see a physician rather than a car mechanic you wouldn’t be so confused.

          • expect_resistance

            Laughing :))))))))))

        • Arekushieru

          Um, how are oil changes comparable to the ovulation that occurs in a LIVING BREATHING WOMAN’S fucking BODY? You people really DO like to erase women. And then you whine about us calling you misogynists. If you like to spew this crap about ‘taking responsibility’, take your own once in awhile, for fuck sakes.

    • Jennifer Starr

      a) condoms are not prescription medication. They are not covered by your insurance.

      b) Birth control pills are available only by prescription and are not ‘one size fits all’. What works for one woman will not work for every woman–your doctor makes that determination and writes the prescription. Some women can’t even handle a pill. Start handing them out to people and you’ll be breaking the law. But as prescription medicine, they should be covered.

      c) Since I pay my premiums, I am paying for this. Enough said.

      • KingMeIam

        But, you’ll notice that healthcare insurance doesn’t JUST cover prescription drugs. So why not cover condoms?

        (note: I’m opposed to insurance covering anything that is routine and relatively affordable, like contraception).

        • red_zone

          Contraception is NOT affordable.

          • KingMeIam

            Since when? An IUD (copper) cost as low as $500 (usually more like $1000) that for between 5-10 years. That’s as low as …wait for it ….

            14 cents per day.

          • Shan

            “14 cents per day.”

            They don’t let you make installment payments.

            Oh, wait. Unless your insurance premiums have already covered it!

          • KingMeIam

            Oh no, you mean you’d have to like save money. The horror.

            That probably didn’t stop you from buying the computer you’re typing on. Ha. But I guess that’s more important than your health, so….

          • expect_resistance

            How much did you pay for your computer? Oh wait you’re in mommy and daddy’s basement typing away.

          • KingMeIam

            flagged…just kidding.

          • expect_resistance

            Computers are cheep duh. You can get one for under $100 if you’re smart.

          • KingMeIam

            Yeah, I could buy a computer from 1999. That’s true. Is that what you did?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Computers are easy to build and update.

          • expect_resistance

            Sure. That’s why I’m online with my computer from 1999. I have magic powers too.

          • Shan

            “That’s why I’m online with my computer from 1999. I have magic powers too.”

            If you are doing that, you are definitely a necromancer and I fear you!

          • expect_resistance

            :)

          • colleen2

            The women here aren’t stupid like Republican women are.

          • Shan

            My insurance already covers all the BC I need via my premiums. So the rest of my income is mine to spend as I see fit. I’ll contact you if I ever need budgeting advice. Thanks!

          • KingMeIam

            Well, you’re the one who thinks it’s impossible to buy things because you don’t know how to save money or, OMG, use a credit card.

          • Shan

            “Well, you’re the one who thinks it’s impossible to buy things because
            you don’t know how to save money or, OMG, use a credit card.”

            Where did I say that?

          • KingMeIam

            “They don’t let you make installment payments.”

          • Shan

            Jesus HMS Christ what did I say? Oh, right here: “My insurance already covers all the BC I need via my premiums. So the rest of my income is mine to spend as I see fit. I’ll contact you if I ever need budgeting advice. Thanks!”

            Stop trying to make “me” or anybody else here representative of whatever hate-on you have.

          • KingMeIam

            So why would you have to use installation payments if your insurance payments cover it?

            Oh you were talking for other people…who you aren’t. Maybe you should stick to what you know.

            So, bottom line is that they DO let people make installment plans via various methods. You’re a moron if you didn’t know that. You can flag me now because you didn’t know about medical installment plans and I called you a name for it.

          • Ramanusia

            She wasn’t referring to herself, but your example of how a woman should save up to pay for her IUD for months because $1,000 is chump change to someone making minimum wage and already paying health insurance premiums.

            She was addressing your example specifically, and pointing out your utter stupidity. Um, they don’t let people make installment payments, you’re a moron who doesn’t seem to understand how insurance premiums work.

            So you got called out on your failure to follow your own example, and you called an accurate name for it, a well deserved one. Get a clue.

          • fiona64

            5×5 seems to think none of us remember s/h/it using those same “arguments” and that none of us know s/h/it is making sock puppets all over the place since s/h/it got banned.

          • HeilMary1

            For middle income women, some family planning methods are affordable, but not for the destitute.

          • Ramanusia

            Gee, save your money so that you can pay for necessary healthcare that you’re already paying insurance premiums for because some deluded fool wants to play doctor … I guess you’re okay with saving up for your healthcare, because hey, it’s not like insurance should cover anything, and apparently you think paying out of pocket for things that other people don’t like, like your BP medication due to your American diet of cows and bacon wrapped everything, is perfectly fine. But I guess you’d be screaming blue murder if someone tried to make you save up to pay for your personal lifestyle and health decisions.

          • HeilMary1

            Home computers are essential for job searches and take-home work assignments, cheapskate.

          • Ramanusia

            Since not all women can use an IUD, or afford to pay $1000 out of pocket OR wish to keep it for 5 -10 years.

            That’s pretty stupid, you literally have no clue what you’re talking about do you?

          • KingMeIam

            It’s almost like you want to make excuses so you can pay more for contraception instead of listening to any advice.

            Fine. Pay more. See if I care.

          • Ramanusia

            It’s almost like you have no clue that your lies and your ignorance keep showing in your incredibly stupid comments.

            It’s like you don’t understand that dispensing medical advice is about medicine and not about costs that you pull out of your rear in an effort to force women to pay extra for contraception rather than allowing it to be covered fully under premiums. It’s like you don’t get that paying extra beyond covered insurance is actually paying more.

            Your “advice” is dumb, we won’t pay more like you want us to, with our lives, our health and our money, we KNOW you don’t care and we KNOW you don’t know crap about contraception, not the medicine, not the science, not the costs.

            Fine, but out, see how little we care about your nonsense and attempts to harm women financially and medically, see how well we do with your uninformed input.

        • HeilMary1

          $1,200 pills and sterilizations are beyond most women’s incomes, KingSmartyPants.

          • KingMeIam

            Good thing there is much cheaper contraception moron.

          • Shan

            Flagged.

          • KingMeIam

            flagged back at you

          • Shan

            Good luck with that.

          • expect_resistance

            He’ll get banned and he knows it. He’s just buying time to make as many sexist comments as he can.

          • L-dan

            And then pop back in with a new nym.

            Again.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He needs us. He loves us. Aren’t we lucky.

          • HeilMary1

            Ortho-Tri-Cyclen for acne costs $40-160 per month without insurance, moron.

            http://blog.credit.com/2013/08/strange-world-birth-control-pill-prices/

          • KingMeIam

            Pirmella (ethinyl estradiol/norethindrone) is $9/month at Walmart….without insurance.

          • HeilMary1

            Pirmella is $30 WITHOUT insurance.

          • KingMeIam

            Would you care to try again? This time being honest?

            i . walmartimages . com/i/if/hmp/fusion/customer_list . pdf

            page 4 under “women’s health”

          • expect_resistance

            Thank you!! :)

        • expect_resistance

          You sound like a broken record. Booooooring.

        • colleen2

          The most effective forms of contraception are often quite expensive. Why do we have to pay for your penis pump?

          • KingMeIam

            The MOST effective form is abstinence. That’s free.

            Besides that IUDs are a pretty close second. If you get the 10 year IUD, were talking about as low as $4/month.

          • Shan

            “If you get the 10 year IUD, were talking about as low as $4/month.”

            It’s not like buying a car. You have to pay for it all at once.

          • KingMeIam

            So? How much was your cell phone plan last month?

          • lady_black

            Not enough to get an IUD, that’s for sure.

          • KingMeIam

            IUDs cost MUCH less than a monthly cell phone bill. Try again, “nurse.”

          • expect_resistance

            Are there monthly payment plans for IUDs. Oh do tell.

          • KingMeIam

            Ever heard of a credit card or savings?

            Probably not. How’d you buy your computer?

          • expect_resistance

            Cold hard cash.

          • KingMeIam

            Great then you have enough money for an IUD.

            How does that work?

          • expect_resistance

            What the hell are you talking about?

          • lady_black

            Yeah. It’s not like a cell phone plan. You have to pay it all at once.

          • KingMeIam

            You do ? OMG, like you have to save for it or put it on your credit card??

            Do you own the computer you’re typing on?

          • lady_black

            No. I stole it. And I’m stealing my neighbor’s signal, too.

          • KingMeIam

            That’s sounds like the responsible thing to do “nursie”

          • expect_resistance

            Sure shithead.

          • Shan

            “And I’m stealing my neighbor’s signal, too.”

            LOL! I do that when I want porn. I switch wifi and download it on theirs. They are so STOOPID!

          • lady_black

            My WI-FI is highest security, and so are all my neighbors. It’s really cheap, too, Internet and landline for under $35 a month. A lot has changed in the equipment used that it’s really hard to do that around here. You don’t set your own password anymore. It’s pre-set, about 20 characters, and contains letters and numerals. I used to be able to piggyback if I was outside and their signal was stronger. No more. And no need to!

          • Shan

            I was just kidding about the wifi. AND the porn, just to be clear! ;-)

          • KingMeIam

            I got this thing in the mail the other day. They said I could buy things that I didn’t have money for and pay it back over time. The only thing was they were going to charge some interest.

            What was the name of those things….I forget .

          • expect_resistance

            You don’t sounds like a smart libertarian.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What are you doing on your phone that you run up that much money? I don’t even manage to use up my free minutes each month.

          • KingMeIam

            IUDs cost about $5 a month. Your phone bill is less? Impressive.

          • Shan

            I don’t have a cell plan.

          • KingMeIam

            Ha. sure you don’t. How much is your internet plan? Or do you get that for free as well?

          • Shan

            No, I don’t. I don’t know how much my internet is because it’s bundled in with my cable and phone. It’s probably way too much but I don’t have to worry about that because ALL MY BIRTH CONTROL!!! I don’t have to pay for that.

          • KingMeIam

            So your phone/internet/TV is more important than your health.

            Interesting.

          • Shan

            “So your phone/internet/TV is more important than your health.

            Interesting”

            Um, no. I pay for all that myself.

            Anyone else do that?

          • KingMeIam

            So your phone/internet is so important that you’re able to pay for it yourself. Yet, when it comes to contraception, that’s too much of a burden for you and you expect other people to subsidize your expenditure through insurance. Hmm…

          • Shan

            Stick to what you know, remember?

          • L-dan

            Hmm, no. I’d like my health insurance, that I pay for or earn through my employment to pay for health care, which includes insurance. Why should I pay extra for a basic bit of preventative care?

            Sort of like I want my internet plan to provide me with internet when I pay for it.

            And my cable plan to have at least a few interesting channels in the basic plan if I’m shelling out for it.

            And man, I’d like my food to provide actual nutrition when I hand over a few bucks at the store. In fact, I’d like the food my taxes subsidize via various government assistance programs to be decent and nutritious too. Kind of basic and all.

          • Ramanusia

            Contraception is covered by health insurance premiums, it’s bundled in with all that other healthcare.

            There is no burden, it’s paid for already, you’re the one trying to CREATE a burden. No one is subsidizing anything, our premiums pay for it, they also pay for your penis pumps and your viagra because you expect us all to subsidize your sex life with whomever you can pay to be with you. Hmmm… you don’t realize how insurance premiums work, do you?

          • Shan

            “you expect other people to subsidize your expenditure through
            insurance.”

            That’s how everybody’s insurance works. We don’t get to pick what other people have to pay for out-of-pocket on the grounds that we just don’t like it.

          • expect_resistance

            The child king is having a temper tantrum. Someone didn’t get a nap today.

          • Ramanusia

            Interesting in that she never said that and you’re caught once again lying?

            Interesting indeed. Not terribly bright are you?

          • goatini

            Phones are not covered under health insurance as preventive care.

          • expect_resistance

            Is the life span on an IUD 10 years? I thought it was shorter than that. Plus you have to add in doctor visits. I agree IUDs are not cheap and there are no installment plans.

          • KingMeIam

            10 years for Paragard
            5 years for Mirena

          • expect_resistance

            What’s the price breakdown. I want specs and details. “Mach schnell!”

          • KingMeIam

            Is your google broken?

          • expect_resistance

            You’re the one that knows everything. You tell me.

          • expect_resistance

            Computers are less expensive. Did you pay too much for yours?

          • KingMeIam

            IUDs range from about $500 to about $1500 depending on the doctors fees. And they last 5- 10 years.

            That’s pretty comparable in cost to most computers, except that computer don’t last that long.

          • lady_black

            I would NEVER spend $1500 on a computer.

          • KingMeIam

            goodie for you.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s just stupid to pay too much for a computer. Sad for you and your stupid mistake. Maybe you will learn next time.

          • goatini

            It’s a prescription medical device. A computer is not.

            I suppose Granny should pay out of pocket for her pacemaker.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Computers last quite a long time if you know how to care for them properly.

          • Ramanusia

            Because inserting a piece of copper inside your body because some moron made up some numbers and dictates it’s “cheapness” is a smart thing to do.

            Because that never causes problems right? And women typically want to do this for decades at a time.

            What truly idiotic statement.

          • KingMeIam

            If you think those numbers are “made up” then you obviously haven’t done the research.

            And I everyone knows that IUD are removable. Well, maybe you didn’t know that, so maybe I assumed too much.

          • Ramanusia

            Since I have done the research and understand why IUDs all around is a pretty deadly medicine, I’m pretty sure you’ve done no research.

            Yeah, you assume a whole lot of things, most of which could be corrected if you bothered to learn a thing or two, but hey, that would require exposing yourself to facts and understanding that contraception doesn’t work the way you think. Everyone knows that only a moron would think that IUDs for all, paid for out of pocket in addition to insurance premiums are somehow saving anyone any money. So yeah, you assume too much, stop that an educate yourself, your ignorance is shining through.

          • KingMeIam

            IUD are out to kill you. So is the pill. And condoms will give you deadly allergies. You should just not use protection.

            But oh wait. 0.01% or pregnant women die in this country!!! You should just stop having sex. Yep, do that.

          • Ramanusia

            Are the voices in your head telling you to pretend I said that, or are you just a lying liar who can’t help lying, or just dumb?

            We have the highest rate of maternal mortality in the developed world, but hey it’s not like women’s lives, women’s health or women in general mean anything to you.

            You’ve never had sex have you? No woman wanted to be with you that’s why you hate them so?

            Yep, it’s that blatantly obvious. You just makes sure you Darwin yourself out the gene pool, yep, definitely do that.

          • colleen2

            So, why am I paying for your penis pump and your erectile dysfunction drugs, little Republican?

        • kimbriel

          It’s affordable according to whom? Bottom line, it’s a great investment. Which is cheaper? Birth control pills or maternity and prenatal care?

        • Ramanusia

          Contraception while routine, is not “relatively affordable”, and healthcare insurance that is effective in terms of efficacy, medical outcomes and fiscal responsibility does cover preventive care, of which contraception is a key part.

          Note: you seem to be opposed to any sort of fact that challenges your ignorant and dishonest beliefs about things you clearly do not understand have made no attempt to try.

          • expect_resistance

            He’s a troll just here for shits’n’giggles. This is why I have no serious response to anything he says.

    • Mark

      Health insurance pays for health care costs. Contraceptives are health care. Neither of those facts are new. Do you just not know how insurance works, as another commenter said?

    • lady_black

      Insurers disagree with you, and so do doctors and public health officials. Now, are we clear? What on earth do cell phones, cable and flat screen TVs have to do with anything? My sister has a flat screen TV. I bought it in 2005, and I GAVE it to her in 2011 when I got my hubby a better one for Christmas. I guarantee you she couldn’t afford $50 a month for birth control pills without eating beanie-weenies several times per month, so it’s a good thing her tubes are tied, paid by insurance. She doesn’t HAVE cable, and she has a lifeline phone so she has a way to call a doctor or the kid’s school. Libertarians are even dumber than republicans. Go live in Somalia. It’s a libertarian’s wet dream come true. No government, powerful military and full of starving children.

      • HeilMary1

        Ramen!

    • Mindy McIndy

      So with your “brilliant” suggestion of handing out birth control pills at sporting events, what should they do with the depo provera shot and IUDs? Should those not be covered either, or handed out willy nilly over the counter?

      • lady_black

        I know how to give injections. I don’t think there’s any way to self-insert an IUD. Yikes. I think even doctors need another doctor or a PA or midwife to do that.

        • KingMeIam

          Every type 1 diabetic knows how to give injections. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist (or go to nursing school) to figure that out.

          • Mindy McIndy

            There is a world of difference between an IM injection and a subcutaneous injection.

          • Shan

            I’d just love to see you try to insert your own IUD.

          • KingMeIam

            You’ve used a tampon, correct?

            Not much different. Of course you’ll probably want an US machine nearby to check placement, but it’s really not that difficult.

            Note: I’m NOT saying that people should do it themselves, but it really isn’t that difficult.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t put a tampon inside your uterus.

          • lady_black

            He probably does.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sending him to Flakeville with ‘lonleylibertarian’. They deserve one another.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He really honest to goodness thought this, didn’t he? He thought that women put tampons inside their uterus. I have no words now.

          • HeilMary1

            Does he even know the difference?

          • expect_resistance

            That is really idiotic.

          • lady_black

            Oh, it’s a WHOLE LOT different.

          • Shan

            I see you have a lot of experience with vaginas.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, it’s JUST like inserting a tampon! Don’t you slip your tampons through the cervix?

          • expect_resistance

            Ouch, too far.

          • Shan

            “Don’t you slip your tampons through the cervix?”

            Of course, every time I can manage it. And if, after 5 days there is no leakage of menstrual fluid (or pus )or if my fever has not exceeded 103F, I replace it with another one. I save lots of money that way. Because Advil is so cheap.

          • lady_black

            I wouldn’t let him anywhere near a vagina.

          • expect_resistance

            He thinks he’s being cute, saying “You’ve…..correct?” I know it’s funny. I can’t help but laugh. He’s very “small time.” :)

          • expect_resistance

            Me too. I would love to see that.

          • lady_black

            They know how to give a subcutaneous injection. To themselves.

          • KingMeIam

            Hey, if a nurse could figure it out, I’m sure they’d do just fine.

          • lady_black

            Nurses don’t “figure it out.” We are trained. We train the diabetics. I’m not sure you understand the concept of study and clinical training. I wouldn’t let you anywhere near me with a needle.

          • KingMeIam

            Yeah, I could “train” by watching a 5 minute youtube video as well.

          • lady_black

            Ya think?? You would end up stabbing a nerve and crippling someone. Or giving an injection in a vein and kill someone. You mealy mouth, Dunning-Kruger victim.

          • KingMeIam

            Did they teach you that fancy term in nursing school?

          • lady_black

            They didn’t teach you much of anything in school. I’ll bet high school kids don’t think inserting an IUD is like using a tampon. LOL. You’re an idiot. Thanks for the laugh.

          • expect_resistance

            I highly doubt you would be accepted to college for a nursing degree program. You need to be intelligent which is skill you lack. Sorry.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The medical profession is grateful that you’re not a part of it.

          • HeilMary1

            And so are the patients!

          • expect_resistance

            Next time you need surgery or a medical procedure you should learn how to do this via Youtube. I learned how to fix my plumbing watching Youtube. It’s goat work for major surgery too. *eyeroll*

          • Jennifer Starr

            He thinks he’s an engineer, too.

          • expect_resistance

            No, way to stupid and illogical to be an engineer.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s illogical.

          • expect_resistance

            You can’t insert an IUD yourself. No one in the professional medical community would say otherwise.

          • KingMeIam

            I’m not advocating that I’m just saying it’s not very difficult.

            http://hcp . mirena-us . com/placement-and-removal/precise-placement-step-5 . php

          • Jennifer Starr

            You didn’t even know where a tampon went.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m sure it’s not very difficult to perform your own biopsy either. As most medical procedures that require a precise knowledge about the procedure from a doctor. Maybe you could perform your own dental care. Like removing a tooth. You could put a string around the tooth and pull it out with a plyers. You could do your own colonoscopy too. Hell that would save a lot of money.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, it just takes a five-minute video *snort*

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      ILLEGAL ABORTION and CHILDBIRTH are the leading causes of maternal death worldwide. Fertility is serious business for women. You Sir, are an asshole that burns so bright that you flame.

      • HeilMary1

        LOL! — you’re making me spit popcorn on my keyboard! Let’s see if my stalker, ljean80, calls you out on your name calling! I’m going to borrow your priceless insults.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Enjoy.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ll take popcorn any day over preying pedophile priests!

          • KingMeIam

            flaggedd

        • KingMeIam

          Your popcorn consumption is probably contributing more to your health problems than those evil priest mother killers are.

          • expect_resistance

            Not even close pedophile apologist.

          • KingMeIam

            flagged.

          • expect_resistance

            Good for you. You can flag me all you want we all know who the troll is here.

          • Shan

            Flagging means the moderators have to look at the posts. Are you sure you want that?

          • KingMeIam

            Sure, they can read about other people calling me a “pedophile apologist”

            But, I called someone a “moron” so that’s B-A-D.

          • Shan

            Yes. I’m newish here but, having been a mod on other boards myself, I presume that before a mod bans a poster, they’ll take into account their contribution (or not) and other things as a whole.

          • KingMeIam

            I noticed that you didn’t flag the person who called me a “pedophile apologist”

            Interesting cognitive dissonance.

          • Shan

            “I noticed that you didn’t flag the person who called me a “pedophile apologist”

            If you were a regular member of the forum here, you would know why I didn’t.

            “Interesting cognitive dissonance.”

            Nope.

          • KingMeIam

            “If you were a regular member of the forum here, you would know why I didn’t.”

            Because you’re a hypocrite?

          • Shan

            Oops, name-calling, remember?

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the hypocrite with killer misogynistic cognitive dissonance.

          • KingMeIam

            flagged

          • lady_black

            No. Like a neutered dog, you don’t get it. You said popcorn causes more health problems than pedophile priests. I wouldn’t call popcorn a nutritious food, but popcorn isn’t harmful. It’s high fiber. If you load it with butter and salt, the butter and salt can be harmful. Pedophiles are ALWAYS harmful. That makes you, in fact, a pedophile apologist.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Popcorn is healthier than previously thought.

          • HeilMary1

            My cheapskate Republican-owned company won’t hire enough people to do the work during regular hours, so I often work UNPAID double, triple and quadruple shifts, with no meal breaks, to make deadlines and avoid being fired. This means eating vending machine snacks while multi-tasking.

    • LisaMarli

      Viagra is covered by my health insurance. I am female and have no need for it. ‘Nuff said.

    • JamieHaman

      Except your not paying for it. The premiums women pay are what covers the costs of the contraceptive. Here is the deal about insurance. Collective risk, collective pay. Young men are rarely ill, but frequently injured. Young women have babies. In undeveloped countries, women without proper medical care die, 1 in ten for every live birth (an average) That is one hell of a lot of dying. Here is the rest, women are not immaculately conceiving those children.
      Women have paid for prostrate care for decades. Non-diabetic folk have paid for diabetes treatment, people without cancer pay for cancer treatment. It’s time for men to pony up and pay their fair share.
      So, no health care for women, of which contraceptives are a big big part is not silly, inefficient or stupid.

      • colleen2

        women are not immaculately conceiving those children.

        The men of the Republican party believe that women and women alone are to be held responsible for the fact that humans have sex.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Great comment. So stealing it for good use.

    • Shan

      “Forcing someone else to pay for something I need is theft”

      If SCOTUS rules for Hobby Lobby, the problem is that any employer with a “sincerely held religious belief” could refuse health insurance coverage for contraception. Or basically any other coverage they don’t like because their religion (or their interpretation of it) tells them it’s a “bad” thing.

      I don’t know about other coverages, but cost/benefit analyses have shown that adding contraception is a wash as far as the premiums go. By the same token – and this is another problem, because the vast majority of plans do already cover contraception – removing coverage would ALSO have zero effect on the cost of the premiums.

      The net? Employees who currently have (or would be eligible for) contraceptive coverage would be at risk of losing it if their employers who have “sincerely held religious beliefs” get the go-ahead from the SCOTUS ruling to remove it from their plans. But here’s the kicker: Neither the employers NOR the employees would be paying less in premiums for health plans that don’t have that coverage. Employers (and employees who don’t use it) would gain zero financial benefit by getting rid of it. But employees who DO use contraception would end up paying for it out of pocket, easily $1000 a year for some.

      THAT is the real theft.

      • KingMeIam

        So what? Employers (well, their insurance companies) have been regulating their own plans for decades. Some choose not to offer dental. Ya know what happened? Supplemental dental coverage – or you pay out of pocket. Somehow people didn’t stop brushing their teeth and going to the dentist when insurance coverage stopped.

        Are you a responsible enough adult to purchase your own birth control?

        • BruceMcGlory

          SO, what you’re saying is, you weren’t smart enough to read the article before commenting on it?

          • Shan

            Every day is a brand new day for him. I suspect Alzheimer’s.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Or brain damage. Or sociopathy. Or it is a typical message board sadist.

            Canadian psychologists Erin Buckels, Paul Trapnell, and Delroy Paulhus set up a survey of personality inventories matched with “Internet commenting styles”—in other words, they attempted to psychoanalyze commenters, which should be cause for a Nobel prize (and hazard pay) in itself. What came from the study will likely surprise no one: people who like to troll are also likely to show signs of “sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism.”

            Those three character flaws make up the ominous “Dark Tetrad of personality.” Sadism means delighting in the harm of others, psychopathy is an antisocial personality disorder, and Machiavellianism means a person’s tendency to be unemotional and deceitful. Trolls seem to have all three on lock.
            http://time.com/8265/internet-trolls-are-actually-sadists-study-finds/

          • red_zone

            Ya know… this just might be useful to me. ;)

        • red_zone

          I had a dental appointment to treat a cracked tooth a few weeks ago. Turns out I needed a root canal and a crown for that tooth, plus a another crown for a tooth that’s was worked on two years prior, but never got fixed because I had recently lost my low-paying retail job.

          Know how much that root canal, temp crown and permanent crown cost? Over $2,500. Yes, you read right.

          It’s not so much a matter or being responsible. It’s a matter of being able to afford it. I’m lucky I had some savings, but not everyone does. How many people do you think can AFFORD to drop that much money on ONE tooth? Most would have had it puled.

          • lonleylibertarian

            Well it is still less than the deductible on many of the Obamacare plans – so what is your point?

          • red_zone

            My POINT is that, birth control- in ALL it’s forms-is infinitely cheaper than paying for all the care related to pregnancy and the insurance companies would, I’m sure, rather pay for the pill, IUD, etc. than shell out for an unplanned pregnancy because the woman couldn’t get BC.

          • expect_resistance

            All of these services listed below are covered as preventative services under the ACA, and you have a problem with one of these. Well too bad so sad that’s reality. Get over it.

            Preventive Services Covered Under the Affordable Care Act

            If you have a new health insurance plan or insurance policy beginning on or after September 23, 2010, the following preventive services must be covered without your having to pay a copayment or co-insurance or meet your deductible. This applies only when these services are delivered by a network provider.

            Covered Preventive Services for Adults

            Covered Preventive Services for Women, Including Pregnant Women

            Covered Preventive Services for Children

            15 Covered Preventive Services for Adults

            Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm one-time screening for men of specified ages who have ever smoked

            Alcohol Misuse screening and counseling

            Aspirin use for men and women of certain ages

            Blood Pressure screening for all adults

            Cholesterol screening for adults of certain ages or at higher risk

            Colorectal Cancer screening for adults over 50

            Depression screening for adults

            Type 2 Diabetes screening for adults with high blood pressure

            Diet counseling for adults at higher risk for chronic disease

            HIV screening for all adults at higher risk

            Immunization vaccines for adults–doses, recommended ages, and recommended populations vary:

            Hepatitis A

            Hepatitis B

            Herpes Zoster

            Human Papillomavirus

            Influenza (Flu Shot)

            Measles, Mumps, Rubella

            Meningococcal

            Pneumococcal

            Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis

            Varicella
            Learn more about immunizations and see the latest vaccine schedules.

            Obesity screening and counseling for all adults

            Sexually Transmitted Infection (STI) prevention counseling for adults at higher risk

            Tobacco Use screening for all adults and cessation interventions for tobacco users

            Syphilis screening for all adults at higher risk

            22 Covered Preventive Services for Women, Including Pregnant Women

            The eight new prevention-related health services marked with an asterisk ( * ) must be covered with no cost-sharing in plan years starting on or after August 1, 2012.

            Anemia screening on a routine basis for pregnant women

            Bacteriuria urinary tract or other infection screening for pregnant women

            BRCA counseling about genetic testing for women at higher risk

            Breast Cancer Mammography screenings every 1 to 2 years for women over 40

            Breast Cancer Chemoprevention counseling for women at higher risk

            Breastfeeding comprehensive support and counseling from trained providers, as well as access to breastfeeding supplies, for pregnant and nursing women*

            Cervical Cancer screening for sexually active women

            Chlamydia Infection screening for younger women and other women at higher risk

            Contraception: Food and Drug Administration-approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling, not including abortifacient drugs*

            Domestic and interpersonal violence screening and counseling for all women*

            Folic Acid supplements for women who may become pregnant

            Gestational diabetes screening for women 24 to 28 weeks pregnant and those at high risk of developing gestational diabetes*

            Gonorrhea screening for all women at higher risk

            Hepatitis B screening for pregnant women at their first prenatal visit

            Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) screening and counseling for sexually active women*

            Human Papillomavirus (HPV) DNA Test: high risk HPV DNA testing every three years for women with normal cytology results who are 30 or older*

            Osteoporosis screening for women over age 60 depending on risk factors

            Rh Incompatibility screening for all pregnant women and follow-up testing for women at higher risk

            Tobacco Use screening and interventions for all women, and expanded counseling for pregnant tobacco users

            Sexually Transmitted Infections (STI) counseling for sexually active women*

            Syphilis screening for all pregnant women or other women at increased risk

            Well-woman visits to obtain recommended preventive services*

            Learn more about Affordable Care Act Rules on Expanding Access to Preventive Services for Women.
            (Effective August 1, 2012)

            26 Covered Preventive Services for Children

            Alcohol and Drug Use assessments for adolescents

            Autism screening for children at 18 and 24 months

            Behavioral assessments for children of all ages
            Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.

            Blood Pressure screening for children
            Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.

            Cervical Dysplasia screening for sexually active females

            Congenital Hypothyroidism screening for newborns

            Depression screening for adolescents

            Developmental screening for children under age 3, and surveillance throughout childhood

            Dyslipidemia screening for children at higher risk of lipid disorders
            Ages: 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.

            Fluoride Chemoprevention supplements for children without fluoride in their water source

            Gonorrhea preventive medication for the eyes of all newborns

            Hearing screening for all newborns

            Height, Weight and Body Mass Index measurements for children
            Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.

            Hematocrit or Hemoglobin screening for children

            Hemoglobinopathies or sickle cell screening for newborns

            HIV screening for adolescents at higher risk

            Immunization vaccines for children from birth to age 18 —doses, recommended ages, and recommended populations vary:

            Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis

            Haemophilus influenzae type b

            Hepatitis A

            Hepatitis B

            Human Papillomavirus

            Inactivated Poliovirus

            Influenza (Flu Shot)

            Measles, Mumps, Rubella

            Meningococcal

            Pneumococcal

            Rotavirus

            Varicella
            Learn more about immunizations and see the latest vaccine schedules.

            Iron supplements for children ages 6 to 12 months at risk for anemia

            Lead screening for children at risk of exposure

            Medical History for all children throughout development
            Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.

            Obesity screening and counseling

            Oral Health risk assessment for young children
            Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years.

            Phenylketonuria (PKU) screening for this genetic disorder in newborns

            Sexually Transmitted Infection (STI) prevention counseling and screening for adolescents at higher risk

            Tuberculin testing for children at higher risk of tuberculosis
            Ages: 0 to 11 months, 1 to 4 years, 5 to 10 years, 11 to 14 years, 15 to 17 years.

            Vision screening for all children

          • HeilMary1

            Do you understand that each childbirth costs $20,000 to $5,000,000, depending on the complications, and that each disabled child costs millions in government assistance (because no low- and middle-income families can afford disabled kids otherwise!)?

          • lonleylibertarian

            Wow – you really have drunk the Koolaid – kids are born and die each day in Somalia for a whole lot less.

            Childbirth at home is now coming back in fashion – net cost of $500 to $1,000.

            Where do you think the money comes from to pay for the $5M baby – and what gives you – or anyone else the right to take money from me to to pay for this – when I would prefer to have my money pay for my cousin’s child with Down’s syndrome.

          • HeilMary1

            Ostrich, this is the US, not Somalia, where Sandy Wilson’s infected c-section cost $5 million:

            http://www . examiner . com/article/baltimore-resident-survives-five-year-battle-with-flesh-eating-bacteria

            Typical US obstetric costs:

            http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/opinion/declercq-childbirth-costs/

            I haven’t stolen any money from you, selfish liar, because I paid for my mother’s horrific child abuse bills myself. You fascist cheapskates are why Down Syndrome kids born to poor women die prematurely. You LiberTURDians steal from all of us!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah. I’m going to go and repeatedly bang my head against a hard surface now. Maybe if I concuss myself you’ll sound like less of a total flake. But I’m not holding my breath.

          • HeilMary1

            A stunning blonde in Northern Virginia bled to death from a home delivery. But, hey, she saved money on hospital fees!

          • expect_resistance

            You are right it can be very dangerous and deadly. The women I know who have done this have had a back-up plan for a hospital. One was in labor for a very long time and almost lost the baby. Because she had a back-up plan and a kick-ass midwife everyone was okay. She ended up in the hospital and got a c-section. It’s really not any cheeper giving birth at home when you look at all of the costs involved with pregnancy and if death is the outcome that’s just eff’d up. I wish these liberation antis would get a clue. *sigh*

          • KingMeIam

            That was her choice.

            You’re pro-choice, right?

          • lady_black

            I don’t THINK so.

          • red_zone

            It wasn’t her choice to die of complications, though was it?

          • expect_resistance

            I don’t think it will help. He is illogical and nothing we do will change that.

          • expect_resistance

            You are very uninformed about these issues. How does Somalia fit in with this. Do you now understand that women all over the world DIE from being pregnant and from childbirth, especially in war-torn or impoverished countries like Somalia.

            “With an infant mortality rate of currently 132/1 000 live births and a maternal mortality rate of 1 600/100 000 live births, Somalia’s health indicators continue to be some of the worst in the world.” (World Health Organization.)

          • lady_black

            Do move to Somalia, fathead. I think I told you that before. Home birth?? No thank you. That’s why they invented the epidural.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            In Africa, CHILDBIRTH is the leading cause of death for young women aged 15-19.
            Like I said, you have never had an affectionate relationship with a woman. You are a sociopath or a JOHN. Maybe both.

          • KingMeIam

            How much did the computer you’re typing on cost? How much is your cell phone plan? How much is your TV? How much do you spend on coffee, cigarettes, booze, etc.

            We prioritize our spending all the time in life. If your own health is lower priority than the things I mentioned, then that’s your own choice.

            Isn’t choice great?

          • goatini

            Persons with health insurance receive preventive care with no copay under the ACA. This has NOTHING to do with your pompous, condescending misogynistic bullshit.

          • Arekushieru

            And maybe these are all things that occurred BEFORE red zone developed a problem with their teeth? You really have trouble thinking RATIONALLY, dontcha?

          • red_zone

            The laptop I’m borrowing from my father is several years old. I share a family plan with my dad, step-mom and sister so it’s much cheaper and affordable for us. My TV is over 10 years old. I don’t smoke, drink only on special occasions (if I feel like it) and will grab a caffe mocha if I need to wake myself up for work.

            It’s cute that you think you’re clever, but you’re just clueless. All these things were in place BEFORE my tooth broke and I was NOT happy to dip into a savings set aside for me to pay it off, which again, my dad helped me with.

            Bottom line: I’m not this caricature of poverty that you’ve conjured up just to vindicate your own selfishness. I don’t go throwing my money on big-ticket items because I don’t have that kind of money to throw around AND I’m not frivolous or stupid. I’m an actual person with expenses that have to come FIRST. I held off going to the dentist for nearly TWO YEARS because the store I worked at shut down and I couldn’t find work until last summer and even then, I put it off because i didn’t view it as a priority at the time. I had too much going on and it wasn’t until AFTER my tooth broke that I went and got slapped with that bill.

            Think about that for a while before you go spouting off on subjects you have no experience with.

          • HeilMary1

            Not buying a computer or a TV is hardly going to save up enough to cover $20,000 minimum deliveries. Most adults need a home computer to find employment and stay employed.

        • HeilMary1

          Your denying women affordable contraception is criminal Munchausen by Proxy mayhem and murder.

        • expect_resistance

          Can your teeth get pregnant? No.

          It is a much more sound economic policy and procedure for insurance companies to include birth control in the coverage than to not cover it. The expenses of pregnancy would dwarf those of the prevention costs of birth control.

        • http://jupitaur.wordpress.com/ jupitaur

          Yes. I purchase it — as part of my insurance, which is the smart way to do it, as I don’t know if I might need a different kind that costs more or less as time goes on. And I want my insurance to cover contraception because that makes it cheaper. One pregnancy costs more than a whole lifetime of birth control.

        • goatini

          Why should ONE type of prescription medication be excluded?

          Personally, I think that all of these guys carping about prescription contraception can’t get laid.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Bingo :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Because if they could get laid, they would be just as worried at the end of the month waiting for Aunt Flo as women are.
            Your average JOHN never worries for the woman he is doing. JOHN pays for that privilege of not worrying.

    • HeilMary1

      The insurance companies are THRILLED to provide low-cost contraception because contraceptive users save them billions in obstetric complications and birth defects every year. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

      • lonleylibertarian

        Where do you come up with this stuff? I defy you to find me one reputable source for this garbage.

        • Shan

          Here’s a link I prepared earlier:

          http://www.nwlc.org/resource/guaranteeing-coverage-contraceptives-past-and-present

          Excerpt:

          “Early 1990s: surveys revealed that contraceptives were frequently
          excluded from health insurance plans. For example, a 1993 survey found
          that half of indemnity plans for large groups did not cover any
          non-permanent contraception and only 39% of HMOs routinely covered all
          methods of reversible contraception.

          March 1994: Testimony was presented at a hearing before the Senate
          Subcommittee on Aging of the Labor and Human Resources Committee that
          only 15% of large-group health plans covered all main methods of
          contraception, and half typically did not cover any contraceptive method
          at all.

          Spring 1997: The Equity in Prescription Insurance and Contraceptive
          Coverage (EPICC) Act was introduced with bipartisan support in the House
          and Senate. EPICC would have required insurance plans that cover other
          prescription drugs, devices, and services to provide the same level of
          coverage for contraceptive drugs, devices, and services.

          March 1998: The FDA approved coverage of Viagra. Many insurance
          plans began covering the drug. The sharp contrast between insurance
          companies’ willingness to cover Viagra and their reluctance to cover
          contraceptives captured the attention of the media and the public and
          created a groundswell of support for contraceptive equity legislation

          June 1998: A Kaiser Family Foundation poll found that 75% of
          Americans believed contraception should be covered by insurers even if
          such coverage added to the cost.

          July 1998: In response to evidence that a substantial number of
          plans participating in the Federal Employee Health Benefits Plan (FEHBP)
          did not cover all FDA-approved contraceptives, and some did not cover
          any FDA-approved methods, Congress amended the FEHBP to require equity
          in insurance coverage of contraceptives. Adding contraceptive coverage
          to the FEHBP caused no increase in the premium costs.

          December 2000: The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, in a
          major legal advance for women, ruled that an employer’s failure to
          provide insurance coverage for prescription contraceptives, when it
          covers other prescription drugs, devices, and preventive care,
          constitutes unlawful sex discrimination under Title VII of the Civil
          Rights Act of 1964.

          June 2001: A federal court ruled that an employer is violating Title
          VII, the federal law against sex discrimination in the workplace, by
          failing to provide insurance coverage for prescription contraceptives in
          an employee health plan that covers other prescription drugs and
          devices and preventive care. In its decision, the court recognized that
          the exclusion of prescription contraceptives creates a gaping hole in
          the coverage offered to female employees, leaving a fundamental and
          immediate healthcare need uncovered, and ordered the company to cover
          the expenses of prescription contraceptives and related medical services
          to the same extent and on the same terms that the expenses of other
          drugs, devices and preventive services are covered in the employees’
          health plan.”

          • lonleylibertarian

            Ok -that is an interesting legal and political review – but I was responding to your claim that providing contraceptive coverage saved money – I don’t see any data on this in what you provided.

            BTW – I frankly think any move to limit contraceptive coverage should do away with Viagra – Penis pumps and that crap – it is even more absurd than providing BC IMHO.

          • Shan

            This part: “July 1998: In response to evidence that a substantial number of plans participating in the Federal Employee Health Benefits Plan (FEHBP) did not cover all FDA-approved contraceptives, and some did not cover any FDA-approved methods, Congress amended the FEHBP to require equity in insurance coverage of contraceptives. Adding contraceptive coverage to the FEHBP caused no increase in the premium costs.”

            I can find a link to that if you want. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it already.

          • Shan

            This is an ASPE Issue brief with a short, easy to read summary peppered with links to things like insurance actuarial studies (those things premiums are based on).

            http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2012/contraceptives/ib.shtml#_ftn12

          • lonleylibertarian

            Thanks – and that is more what I was looking for…

            As I have said elsewhere – and at other times in this post…

            I personally have no problem with government doing more to make contraceptive services easier to access and more inexpensive.

            I have the same POV on a lot of chronic conditions from diabetes to asthma.

            I am still not sure that forcing this into insurance – employer provided or ACA is the right approach. Yes I am a Libertarian – but I think if these things are worth doing we need to be more aggressive in doing them both effectively and efficiently

            I believe that birth control pills – and a wide range of meds for chronic conditions are available over the counter in Europe and elsewhere. They are fully covered in the UK via the NHS.

            So my concern is probably more tactical – why force Hobby Lobby to do this – it should be done – but done more broadly by a direct program – yes I know that sounds anti-Libertarian – but I am not just lonely – I am, I think pretty compassionate.

            Finally Shan – I want to thank you personally for trying to engage and discuss – a lot of vitriolic crap has been generated by my intrusion into a largely liberal domain – you were polite and responsive and I learned a good deal from you – thanks!

          • Shan

            “why force Hobby Lobby to do this”

            Well, from a practical perspective, they were already covering all the contraception they object to now. Allowing them (or any other employer) to remove that coverage will not only NOT reduce premiums for either the employer OR their employees, the only thing it actually accomplishes is forcing employees who use contraception to pay for it out of pocket on top of continuing to pay the same as they always did in premiums. Basically, it allows the employers to punish their BC-using employees financially by just stomping their foot and shouting “NO! RFRA!”

            Which is kind of ironic considering that they fulfilled the “substantial burden” requirement by pointing to the fact that they, as employers, were at risk of losing tens of millions of dollars for not complying with the mandate (but considerably fewer millions if they refused to provide ANY coverage at all). If it’s all about finances, how that doesn’t translate to shifting the entire “substantial burden” onto their BC-using employees, I don’t understand…maybe because I’m not a lawyer.

            “I want to thank you personally for trying to engage and discuss – a lot
            of vitriolic crap has been generated by my intrusion into a largely
            liberal domain -”

            You’re welcome. I live with a libertarian (small L like you) so maybe that has something to do with it. But you should also understand that this isn’t just “a largely liberal domain” it’s a domain largely frequented by women, some of whom have been fighting with this issue for decades – all the way back to when contraception was illegal.

            Also, a lot of the men (frequently libertarian-sounding) who wander in here saying things very similar to what you have said only come here to behave like offensive trolls whose only intent is to piss people off and get a rise out of them. Heck, women come in here doing the same thing. I got mistaken for one myself a while back but I hung around anyway. ;-)

          • Arekushieru

            And even those that aren’t simply being offensive trolls but actually BELIEVE that crap.

          • lady_black

            I’m sorry I mistook you for a troll. Clearly you aren’t.

          • Shan

            No worries! It’s totally understandable considering the high-octane trolling I’ve seen since.

          • Shan

            “I believe that birth control pills – and a wide range of meds for
            chronic conditions are available over the counter in Europe and
            elsewhere. They are fully covered in the UK via the NHS.”

            I lived in the UK off and on for many years. BC isn’t available OTC there, you have to go to a primary care physician and get a prescription first. When I lived there 15+ years ago, there was no charge to pick it up. Also, I had my first child over there as well and it didn’t cost us a dime. Other than via the taxes we paid.

            Which, let me explain, didn’t reduce our paychecks by any more than the taxes we paid in the US. The difference is that the take-home from our US paychecks got *additionally* reduced by a hell of a lot more each week/month by health insurance premiums which didn’t cover us to nearly the same extent as the NHS did.

          • KingMeIam

            They are assuming that there are only two options:
            1. Provide free birth control
            2. Pregnancy

            Of course there is the third option, which is to pay for contraception themselves. But they think women are too stupid to be able to think of option #3.

          • goatini

            The point is that the ACA provides for no copay, for insured parties, for preventive care. That’s IT. Contraception IS preventive care.

          • Shan

            “They are assuming that there are only two options:
            1. Provide free birth control
            2. Pregnancy”

            No, that’s just you.

          • KingMeIam

            So you’re smart enough to pay for birth control by yourself?

            Great. Then do it.

          • Shan

            If you stop making ad feminam attacks like that, people might stop thinking you’re such an asshat and address your arguments in a straightforward way.

          • HeilMary1

            Stupid liar you refuses to acknowledge that we women have always paid for our contraception. And because many methods are very expensive and often illegal in Catholic-controlled areas, we are forced to go without it.

          • KingMeIam

            Please name the method that’s “very expensive.”

        • HeilMary1

          http://www . examiner . com/article/baltimore-resident-survives-five-year-battle-with-flesh-eating-bacteria

          http://www . cnn . com/2013/07/09/opinion/declercq-childbirth-costs/

    • expect_resistance

      How it should be paid for? I pay for it with my premiums and as part of my compensation package. NO ONE is asking YOU to pay for it.

      BTW I don’t have cable, I don’t have a big screen TV, and guess what again, I’m NOT asking you to pay for it.

      Apparently YOU don’t know how insurance works. It makes more economic sense and is more financially responsible for an insurance company to cover birth control. It also keeps your insurance premiums lower. You are arguing against yourself on this one.

      • lonleylibertarian

        A very smart man said years ago – “insurance should cover the rare and expensive.

        Car insurance covers accidents – not getting new tires, windshield wipers or oil changes…

        Home owners insurance covers fire, hurricanes, breaking and entering – not painting my house or replacing my roof after it is worn out in twenty years.

        One of the reasons Obamacare is so expensive is that it is too broad – it tries to cover things that are more like prepaid health care and not really meant for insurance.

        In general – for healthy people insurance is a pretty bad deal. That is why a lot of folks liked having health savings accounts [HSAs - which could then be used to pay for anything I need with my own tax deferred dollars - including contraception] coupled with high deductible catastrophic plans.

        Obama care makes this bad deal into an awful one – well over half the people buying insurance would be way better off self-insuring – paying for their own birth control – and yes even their own abortions – and pocketing the difference between what they pay in health care each year and the premiums that the insurance companies are quoting.

        • Shan

          “Obama care makes this bad deal into an awful one”

          That’s not what this article or the case before SCOTUS yesterday was about though.

          But why wouldn’t you want everyone ELSE on the insurance plan you’re on to have contraceptive coverage which, as several people have pointed out here, costs NOBODY any extra money because the added direct cost of including it is offset by the decreased direct and indrect costs associated with unintended pregnancy? Win-win for everyone, right?

        • expect_resistance

          Bullpucky! Your car and house can’t get pregnant.

          • lonleylibertarian

            DOUBLE BULLPUCKY – getting pregnant is a CHOICE – you don’t get “it” by sitting on toilet seats or by being cursed by some witch or troll – you make an EXPLICIT CHOICE.

            Responsible people are willing to pay for the choices they make.

            I am done with you looney proggies…

            OUT

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t let the door hit your fanny on the way out.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Proggies? Is that even a word? And since I pay my premiums I do pay for my choices, which makes me responsible and seems to make you into a shouting lunatic. Ahh, well–always willing to help :)

          • L-dan

            So is smoking. Shall we not cover lung cancer treatment?

            How will we decide whether or not to treat people whose illnesses may be due to life choices like…not listening to a dr. saying “change your diet or you’re risking diabetes or a heart attack?”

            It’s because the explicit choice in this case is about sex, right?

            So…we won’t treat STDs either? And well, I guess pregnancy shouldn’t be covered either.

            What about those headline grabbing cases of guys getting themselves so well and truly stuck in whatever device they chose for self-gratification that they required medical attention for removal and repair afterwards?

          • lonleylibertarian

            Well Obamacare as written allows insurance companies to penalize smokers up to 50% – but interestingly it does not allow any premium increase/penalty for…
            1. The morbidly obese
            2. Those with STDs
            3. Those with HIV/AIDs.
            4. Drug addicts
            5. Alcoholics
            4. Those well above the 400% of the FPL with a chronic condition or one of the above.

          • L-dan

            I’d rather they just divert some of the tobacco taxes. As sales of those go down, less money, but also less related illness. But I’ll admit I have no idea if those numbers actually pan out.

            I don’t actually like charging smokers more, but not alcoholics. It’s poor precedent. It also gives an incentive to hide smoking, thus making it harder for doctors to intervene and offer help with stopping.

            Why would you charge those with STDs more? Catching illnesses in the course of life is part of life. Would we charge more to those who have come down with the flu?

            For that matter, part of the point of the whole thing was to avoid pricing those with chronic conditions out of the market. Then they get their care in the ER, which isn’t the best outcome.

          • JamieHaman

            You can hide alcoholism a lot easier than hiding cigarettes. People will think you are crazy when you drink, they can smell when you smoke.

          • Arekushieru

            Smokers are the ONLY ones on the list that aren’t immediately associated with some kind of addiction or illness. Why WOULDN’T they be the only ones for which Obamacare allowed a premium increase/penalty, going by your own logic, that is?

          • HeilMary1

            So poor married couples should remain virgins forever if they remain poor forever? Bet I’m paying for your Viagra sex tourism in Bangkok! Keep YOUR OWN pants zipped, selfish mother killer.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, yes, it is a choice. Which is exactly why I’ve been wondering
            for so many years, simply by virtue of being a woman, I’ve had to share in the cost of birthing people I didn’t conceive. Back during my fertile years I couldn’t opt out of that coverage even when I was finally able to get my tubes tied. So, indeed I’ve carried the costs of many others’ reproductive choices, and I didn’t (and don’t) much appreciate it.

            Of course, it becomes more academic than anything else due to the fact that others were sharing the costs of my birth control pills, tubal ligation, and my husband’s vasectomy. I imagine there were quite a few people sharing in those costs who were vehemently opposed to birth control and sterilization.

            So, if they would have preferred to opt out of sharing the cost for those things, I would also have preferred to opt out of sharing the costs of labor, delivery, and whatever complications may have arisen. Because getting pregnant was *their* choice, you see.

          • kimbriel

            What crap. Do you like high deductible plans or not? I personally do not like them, and I especially don’t like them under ACA, since the difference in premium is only about $400-800 a year. You cannot extol the benefits of HSA in one breath and talk about the costly deductibles of ACA plans in the other. Make up your mind!

          • lady_black

            Paying for it is probably the only way you get it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You know that is the truth. It is a JOHN. Nickel a dozen.

          • goatini

            So, when you’re carted off to the ER in the meat wagon, after you get t-boned in your car with no airbags, while wearing no seat belts, I’m sure you will refuse to file an insurance claim, and you will stand steadfastly firm with your beliefs that “responsible people are willing to pay for the choices they make.”

          • Shan

            Yup, pretty much the same argument I had with my libertarian (small L) partner who still refuses to wear a helmet whilst riding his motorbike. “I get it that your personal freedoms are precious to you. But so are mine. If you get smashed up on the road and end up on life-support in the hospital because you weren’t wearing a helmet, I claim the personal freedom to be able to pull the plug on you right away instead of ending up footing the bill for your indefinite medical care. You want the wind in your hair, fine. I want to not go bankrupt for it.”

          • lady_black

            I have a name for people who ride motorcycles without helmets. The name is “organ donor.” They don’t always help. I lost my baby brother in July of 2011 to a motorcycle accident. He was doing everything right. All the safety equipment, expensive helmet and everything. He was only 44. Tell your partner I said “stay safe.”

          • Shan

            “I have a name for people who ride motorcycles without helmets. The name is “organ donor.”

            Yeah, I hear you and agree. My ex (dad of my kids) rides. He grew up in “mandated helmet land” (i.e., UK) so I don’t have to worry about that with him. He also taught me to ride a motorbike AND drive a car, so I’m grateful for that because it’s eventually translated to a) my safe driving habits and b) our son’s road-readiness.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            *snicker*

          • JamieHaman

            You are out of your mind if you think every pregnant woman got that way by choice. You men are the ones who decide where and when to deposit the little swimmers, and frankly, you men have been known to lie about it.
            Just an fyi, look up the fail rates for birth control, condoms, IUDs, and rapists.
            About one third of women who get raped get pregnant, if they are not using any method of bc. The sponge, the cap, they can’t work if they aren’t there.
            Get your head out of the sand.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Of course the phrase “failure rate with perfect use” has no meaning for you. You have never had an intimate affectionate relationship with a loved women. Not even your Mother.

            But like all fetus freaks, you think you should be IN CHARGE because of your superior character. Sick freak.

          • fiona64

            What a moron you are. Since more than half of the pregnancies in this country are unplanned, I would ay tht it’s more of an accident than a choice. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and all contraception (including surgical sterilization) has known failure rates. Stop acting like an ass.

          • fiona64

            Reply to Lonely Libertarian, in moderation:

            You are continuing to behave like an ass, and a presumptuous one at that. My tubal ligation was covered by my health insurance many, many years ago. You are screaming (with your ALL CAPS) that I am trying to get other people to pay for my contraception and, frankly, you a) are full of crap and b) clearly do not understand how insurance works.

            I PAY for my premiums, with money taken out of my check. I PAY for my co-pays where applicable. NO ONE else is paying for this stuff (unless you count my employer’s contribution, which is considered part of my compensation package … in lieu of more salary), you ranting buffoon.

            And just because YOU think women should be celibate (in your own words) doesn’t mean we have to be. So stick that in your ignorant pipe and smoke it.

        • Jennifer Starr

          In general – for healthy people insurance is a pretty bad deal.

          Yeah, because no one healthy ever becomes suddenly ill, and healthy people never get into accidents or anything, that never happens at all.

          Oh, wait….yes, it does.

          Actually, it makes the most sense to get health insurance while you’re healthy and don’t need it, so that you have it when you do. And preventative care makes sense financially, if it helps to avoid something bigger later on–such as preventing a pregnancy. Your ‘very smart man’ doesn’t seem so smart to me.

          • Shan

            Now, Jennifer. You know perfectly well that’s when you’re supposed to go to the ER, rack up hundreds of thousands in medical bills, then declare bankruptcy so you don’t have to pay them.

        • L-dan

          So, if we stopped calling it ‘insurance’ we’d be ok? I mean, health insurance has not been primarily concerned with only catastrophic care for a while now. It’s pretty obvious the intention of the law is more in line with current usage of the phrase ‘health insurance’ than with the usage that’s in line with catastrophic coverage insurance.

          Regardless, that’s an argument against providing some form of universal (or nearly) health care, not an argument about why that care should not include contraception.

          • lonleylibertarian

            L-dan,

            I think what gets mucked up in these discussions is the difference and distinction between health care and health insurance. For some people these two terms seem to be the same – synonyms if you will.

            But they are not.

            As many are finding out as we roll out the new Obamacare law.

            Insurance will not – does not cover everything – one of the more scary aspects of this new law is it has high deductible and high out of pocket costs for many of the plans offered on the exchanges.

            Whether contraceptive services are worthy of first dollar coverage – and hep C treatment is not is something that we can debate – but the facts are not everything is going to be covered from first dollar.

            I have yet to see anyone make the case for 100% coverage of contraception when we make AIDS patients pick up thousands of dollars for their drugs each year.

          • L-dan

            There isn’t a meaningful distinction as the terms are used in the U.S. Health insurance is health care coverage…with the distinction that you get better coverage with more money, like insurance. Sort of an unholy hybrid.

            Contraception fits within the focus on preventative care, which makes a lot of sense when you’re keeping costs down. It’s there with basic physicals, etc.

            The rest is in line with the “how good of a plan are you picking” insurance aspect. I would actually prefer adding condoms to the things we cover since it’s way more cost effective and better for people to prevent Hep. C and AIDS rather then treat them.

            I’d prefer moving toward decoupling insurance from employment and toward some variety of universal coverage. We’re not there yet.

            Right now, allowing religious objections to federal laws like this opens a barn door to things like those who don’t believe women should work outside the house being able to discriminate based on gender, or frankly on the basis of religion. The harm to employees of allowing these sorts of religious exemptions is far greater than that to companies by requiring them to follow the law (that’s if you even think companies can *have* religious beliefs).

          • lady_black

            AIDS medications are not preventive healthcare. Neither is treatment for hepatitis.

          • L-dan

            But vaccines are preventive, and are covered under the ACA. Hmm, almost like they’re preventative medicine that requires medical intervention to access. That seems so…sensible. (granted, we don’t yet have any for AIDS or hep C)

            I’m sort of amused that the creepy asshats all latched onto contraception as the bridge too far in their employer obligations. With the even wider-ranging anti-vaccination camp, I’m surprised that hasn’t been a focus for lawsuits instead or as well.

            OK, not *really* surprised, since the latter doesn’t have the whiff of ‘people having sexy fun that I don’t approve of.’

          • goatini

            Correct. The ACA provides for no-copay coverage of preventive healthcare.

        • HeilMary1

          Would you buy a car without seat belts and airbags, or a house without lockable doors and windows? — because those REQUIRED safety features are comparable to birth control!

          • lonleylibertarian

            Not really – I think seat belts and airbags are pretty dumb ideas – and we never lock our doors or windows

          • HeilMary1

            By your irresponsible standards, we should get rid of expiration dates on food so you can play roulette with food poisoning.

          • lonleylibertarian

            There is actually a good bit of data out there on how expiration dates are pretty arbitrary – way better to go with the sight and smell test – that is what kept our ancestors alive…

          • HeilMary1

            Many poisons are odorless. But do go poison your sociopathic self and leave us alone.

          • lady_black

            When I was a kid I got a terrible case of food poisoning from food that seemed perfectly fine. From the symptoms I think it was probably salmonella. My whole family was down with it. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.

          • Arekushieru

            Yup, I had a friend who contracted Salmonella from the uncooked eggs they gathered from the chickens they raised, in high school. She was out of school for MONTHS. The thing that saved her was that she was a VERY intelligent woman and hard-working. She managed to take on the extra course load of work and finish it all by the end of the summer of that year.

          • fiona64

            Me, too. So much for the “smell test,” eh?

          • lady_black

            Except it didn’t keep them alive.

          • L-dan

            They’re more to keep the unscrupulous from selling spoiled food by passing it off as decent than to keep people from dying.

            The part that keeps them from dying is the improvements in regulation and inspection (that still mostly work despite a number of issues) before things ever hit the store shelves.

          • HeilMary1

            Liberturdians are always decrying the very safety regulations that keep them alive.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Ignorant asswipe wants to kill people or sicken them because HE KNOWS THE TRUTH. Moron. Imbecile.

            Myth #7: Leftovers are safe to eat until they smell bad.
            Fact: The kinds of bacteria that cause food poisoning do not affect the look, smell, or taste of food.

          • lonleylibertarian

            Exactly why is it permissible on this thread to call people such names – have I personally insulted any of you? If I have I should not have done so and I would be most happy to apologize.

            Anger and ranting tell me a lot about you – and it isn’t very nice or pretty.

            We have very different values and basic beliefs – that is clear – but I have not attacked you personally – you have chosen to do so multiple times.

            I value personal responsibility – I value the ability to to make the choice on what to eat – when to wear a seat belt and many other things.

            For the record I was not talking about leftovers – I was talking about packaged food – I worked in that business and I know two things.

            1. We produce a lot of food products that had basically infinite shelf life – but in many cases we stamped these with a reasonable expire date that would seem reasonable to the customer. This was done because the TASTE of the food tended to diminish over time – not because it became dangerous.

            2. Even some products – meats – that would being to look or smell bad were still safe to consume – if cooked the proper way. Rather than explain this to the consumer we simply stamped them with short expirations so that the problem of discoloration – or odor would not enter the decision.

            So rant on – I am an idiot and not worth of listening to – I cannot possibly care about some – a wife of 36 years two daughters and six grand daughters would very much disagree with you – but what would they know

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So flag me.

          • fiona64

            You have insulted the intelligence of eveyr person in this thread (ecept maybe 5×5 in its latest incarnation, but that’s another story). Please cite one food product that has “infinite shelf life.” I’ll wait.

          • lonleylibertarian

            A lot of canned products are safe for many many years – as long as the can stays intact. Smoked meats are good for a very long time – many years – but as I said they will begin losing flavor long before they are not safe to eat – faste more like cardboard or food.

          • fiona64

            “Many many years” is not “infinite,” and “a lot of canned goods” is not a citation.

          • lady_black

            Sugar and salt. Certainly nothing canned or processed has an infinite shelf life.

          • fiona64

            Yep … and you can’t exactly live on those two things.

          • goatini

            Twinkies and Big Macs, I believe, meet this benchmark.

          • fiona64

            ROFLOL

          • HeilMary1

            Just because your customers have lucked out so far doesn’t mean you won’t have poisoning in the future. Recalls over outbreaks among humans and pets happen all the time.

          • lonleylibertarian

            It has absolutely nothing to do with “luck” the food I am talking about is perfectly safe and what we did was well within the government approved standards and passed dept of agriculture inspections.

            PLEASE do some reading and use Google.

            One of God’s great gifts to us is a dry aged ham – it has no additives – it is not kept in a fridge – it spends years getting ready for that moment it will delight us.

            When the time comes to enjoy one of these we may need to remove a bit of mold that May have formed – but this “spoiled” product is not only safe – but awesome to enjoy

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry, but the thought of mold on ham almost makes me never want to eat ham again. I don’t care what my ancestors did–if they’d had refrigerators back then, believe me–they would’ve used them.

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t expect us to be “nice or pretty.” That is really insulting and sexist! I’m angry and I don’t give a rat’s ass about what you or anyone else thinks about that. My anger is not a shotgun. I’m angry about the things that make me mad. I am still happy and creative person who is enjoying life. I’m not angry all of the time just when it is called for. My anger is a strength.

            Sorry but you got no street cred here.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t feel like being nice or pretty, especially not to a guy who doesn’t even have the sense to lock his doors and windows. Among many other things, but that one still has me shaking my head.

          • expect_resistance

            Like we should believe him “because he says so.” *eyeroll* I can’t stand that “father know’s best” mentality.

            When I got food poisoning the food tasted great. I couldn’t taste the bacteria that made me very sick. “Two exits” and no waiting. It went on for days. I found it funny that they prescribed me anti-nausa anal suppositories. Like I wasn’t going to crap that out.

          • Jennifer Starr

            and we never lock our doors or windows

            Which is basically the equivalent of saying “Here are my things, please take what you like.” Though I suppose you’re going to tell me how you and your wife take turns doing a nightly armed patrol. If you haven’t been robbed yet, you’re damn lucky.

          • lonleylibertarian

            A very good cop told me a long time ago if your really think a lock is going to stop a determined criminal you are an idiot!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t suppose you’ve ever heard of a crime of convenience. Yeah, a lock may not stop a determined criminal, but leaving everything unlocked is making it ridiculously easy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And my grandfather was a cop. And he’d call you an idiot.

          • expect_resistance

            No doubt.

          • expect_resistance

            That doesn’t mean don’t lock your door. I come from a family of cops and military and they would not share your opinion. Pure stupidity and irresponsibility.

          • kimbriel

            Then, as an analogy, the cops should not have to investigate ANY thefts of his family’s.

          • JamieHaman

            lol, nor should his homeowner’s insurance pay up a dime.

          • HeilMary1

            Ramen!

          • lady_black

            I’m glad you think so. In 2003 I was in a front end collision at 35 mph. My daughter was in the car. She thought like you, that seat belts were “lame.” Her head smashed the windshield and her arm was fractured. The only thing that kept her in the car was hitting the airbag. I was wearing my seatbelt and the only injury I had was a few bruises from the seatbelt locking up. If my daughter hadn’t been wearing her hat, her scalp would have been cut to ribbons. Or she could have been thrown from the vehicle and I could have been planning her funeral. Shortly thereafter, she became known as the “seatbelt Nazi.” People always say things are “dumb” until it saves their life. What’s dumb is you.

          • Shan

            Wait for it.

            “That’s a personal choice that shouldn’t be mandated by the government.”

          • lady_black

            Amazing how your “personal choices” change when you’ve been involved in a bad accident.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep, or watched a bad accident. I didn’t used to wear a helmut riding a bicycle or motorcycle until I saw someones head busted in half from not wearing a helmut.

          • Shan

            I used to ride a scooter in college and didn’t wear a helmet because I was 19 and obviously invincible (and also there was no helmet law). I didn’t start wearing a helmet until a stupid, inattentive driver not using her turn signal caused me hit the pavement in a parking lot. At the time, I didn’t know whether to throw up or hit her, or just throw up ON her. Now, I would thank her for reminding me that I shouldn’t trust others to be safe FOR me.

            And then I would key her door for being an oblivious asshat.

          • fiona64

            Yep. I’m a former equestrian athlete (dressage), and I have seen far too many serious injuries to even remotely consider riding without helmet, boots, gloves, etc. … and that decision literally saved my life the day I had an unplanned dismount from a freaked-out horse (I missed rupturing my spleen by half an inch, I am not kidding). Anyone who tells me they don’t have to wear a helmet when they ride, is not going riding with me. Period.

          • expect_resistance

            I did the stupidest stuff when I was younger. Thought nothing of jumping on the back of my boyfriend’s motorcycle without a helmut. I’m really surprised I’m still alive after some of the dumb crap I did.

          • lady_black

            I say that a lot. I’m very lucky to still be alive, because I did a lot of dumb things that could have got me killed.

          • HeilMary1

            Yikes! Surgery queen me always buckles up. And spinster me always locks everything.

          • expect_resistance

            It was one of the most awful things I’ve seen. I saw this guy on a motorcycle get hit by a car and he was thrown about 30 ft and landed on his head. He was still alive after he landed but was in so much pain he cried out the most horrible noise. It was horrible. I don’t think he lived. It happened about 17 years ago but I will never forget it.

            I always lock everything up too and wear my seatbelt. That’s the good thing about getting older we are smarter and wiser and take precautions. :)

          • lady_black

            Amen to that.

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t want to imagine such head injuries. That’s scarier than my friend with the face cancer and me with chemical and x-ray burns and multiple surgeries, including upper and lower jaw advancement.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I remember that when I was young I thought that riding on the handlebars of my friends’ bikes was cool–even when my parents said it was dangerous. I learned that lesson when I fell off while coasting downhill and scraped up my whole right side.

          • expect_resistance

            Road-rash ouch. I hated falling and getting gravel stuck in my skin.

          • KingMeIam

            You let your daughter ride without wearing her seatbelt. Yikes.

            Here we go again.

          • lady_black

            Yeah. I’m not in the habit of ordering other adults around like you. You can lead them to water, but you can’t always make them THINK.

          • KingMeIam

            My car. My rules.

            You’re car. Daughter with head lac and broken arm.

            You’re move nursie.

          • lady_black

            Young people generally think they’re invincible. You must have been young once. Some lessons are learned “the hard way.”

          • KingMeIam

            I’m glad you love your daughter enough to let her learn the hard way with a broken arm and bashed up face. What a caring mom you must be.

          • goatini

            Why aren’t you preaching to Mister Libertarian, who affirms that seatbelts are “dumb”?

          • HeilMary1

            Contraception, sterilization and abortions are the air bags, seat belts and rescue squads of human sexuality.

          • Shan

            I just love the ad feminams you come up with all the time.

          • lady_black

            Well, first, nothing happened to her face. She was very lucky. You probably *don’t understand* but I grew up in a different time than you. People bicycled without helmets, mothers rode in the front seats with babies in their arms, and kids bounced around in the backseat. Nobody was restrained. People even routinely filled the bed of a pickup truck with kids and drove around like that (in good weather, of course). This was ALL NORMAL. I myself didn’t start wearing a seatbelt until I was in my late twenties. When my kids were children, they were always restrained. I also presented a good example by buckling up myself. Maybe *you* will nag your adult children when they do things that they know better. I can tell you it’s pretty ineffective. The authoritarian style just doesn’t translate well to young adults. It’s not a matter of not caring. This was NOT a “child.” Now what all the nagging in the world wouldn’t accomplish, has been accomplished. I will never again have to worry that she will be thrown from the car in an accident. I KNOW she is wearing her seatbelt… even when I’m NOT there to tell her to.

          • Shan

            ” mothers rode in the front seats with babies in their arms,”

            Good grief, yes. I remember watching my aunt drive while bottle-feeding her INFANT on the seat next to me. And of COURSE I wasn’t wearing a seatbelt.

          • lady_black

            I think King S/h/it must be very young if he has grown up always wearing safety equipment. Probably just old enough to THINK he knows everything. I remember when cars didn’t even HAVE seatbelts, and even if they did, nobody used them.

          • Shan

            Good grief, we played on 6-foot monkey bars over dirt. But I’ve been working in construction for 20+ years now and seen “damage control” committees (or whatever they’re called) nix things because they were higher that 6″ over rubber “bark” chips.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I swear, there were days on the playground where I must have skinned my knees practically every single day. Half the time I used to just get up and keep on going.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I can remember riding in the flatbed of a pickup truck when I was young. Everyone did then.

          • lady_black

            You would be arrested for doing that now. When I grew up all parents were “child abusers” by today’s standards.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I also climbed on jungle gyms with asphalt underneath, played on see-saws, climbed trees, rode in the front seat of my parents’ car and rode a bicycle with no helmet. In fact I don’t recall ever seeing a kid wear a helmet on a bicycle until I was an adult in the nineties–I think it was a law at that point.

          • lady_black

            What a coincidence, that was exactly the same things I did growing up, and no I never saw anyone wearing a bicycle helmet either. They are a fairly recent phenomenon. I remember we used to fight over who would ride in the front seat if only one parent was in the car. Otherwise, we were all diddly-bopping around in the back seat, unrestrained, sticking our arms, heads and feet out the windows and bouncing around. My parents must have had nerves of steel.

          • JamieHaman

            Yes, we got to wave out the windows, stand up in the back seat, and ride in the back of the truck. My dad would even pick up the occasional hitchhiker.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We never locked our front door. Mom and Dad went to work and we ran the streets all day until they came home. Babysitter? What is that? The only control was the block telegraph. Sometimes you did some mischief and the news of what you did got home sooner than you did. And you got whacks with The Belt. All parents were child abusers by today’s standards is correct.

          • L-dan

            *nod* I have clear memories of standing on the axle casing of my grandfather’s Case tractor as he plowed. One hand on the back of the seat to balance. Falling off my approx. 18″ platform would have put me just a couple feet in front of the plow and inches from rolling under a tire.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, KM, here, seems to put his foot in his mouth quite regularly. The fact that he doesn’t reply to such comments once it has been proven that he is CLEARLY in the wrong, attests to that.

          • HeilMary1

            Years ago, an old classmate of Ralph Nader spotted him walking in the Dupont Circle area of DC and offered him a ride. Ralph accepted, but when the classmate chided him for not buckling up the very seat belt he made mandatory in all cars, Ralph sat UNBUCKLED in stony silence the rest of the ride!

          • lady_black

            Good to know my daughter wasn’t the only hard-head in the world. :P

          • Lieutenant Nun

            When I was a kid we used to ride around in the back of pickup trucks, with the wind in our hair. Very dangerous. But those things were not a concern in the 1980s .

          • goatini

            Then go be nasty to Mister Libertarian who doesn’t believe in seatbelts.

          • expect_resistance

            And my car RULES! Bet you my car is faster than your car.

          • Shan

            “Daughter with head lac and broken arm.”

            No doubt she paid for it herself. What’s your issue?

          • lady_black

            My daughter was wearing a heavy knit cap and had only a few tiny cuts from the glass. Yes, my auto insurance paid all the medical bills. Since the accident wasn’t my fault, replacing my car was the other driver’s treat.

          • Shan

            I wasn’t asking after you about it, LB. I have kids myself – one of them half again my size already – and…you just can’t take ALL that on no matter what anyone else says.

          • HeilMary1

            But you oppose maternal life-saving contraception and abortions, hypocrite!

          • expect_resistance

            Here we go again with stupid comments from the peanut gallery. Yes that means you.

          • goatini

            Go carp at Mister Libertarian, then, since he says that he prefers to eschew seatbelts.

          • JamieHaman

            She doesn’t say how old her daughter is, for one thing. You gonna tell your 35 year old who to marry too?

          • lady_black

            At the time she was a young adult, out of high school. Don’t pay any attention to King S/h/it. He often imagines things.

          • KingMeIam

            It’s called schizophrenia. It’s a disease. Pay for my Seroquel copay.

          • expect_resistance

            Good things that’s covered.

          • lady_black

            I wouldn’t urinate on you if you were on fire. Pay your own copay.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I was prescribed Seroquel once. Serious shit that did nothing at all for my bipolar. Nobody should pay any attention to you at all. YOU ARE WHACKED on a daily basis by drugs.

          • expect_resistance

            Or repeats the same crap over, and over, and over.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s the only crap he knows.

        • lady_black

          Insurance hasn’t been like that in a very long time. Try to keep up.

        • JamieHaman

          That would be just fine if contraception didn’t average $50. a month for the pill.
          If every woman earned enough to pay for an abortion, the car trip, (6 hour average drive in Texas since most of the abortion clinics are east of I 35) cost both ways, but count on $90.00. the unneeded ultrasound, about $300.00 the abortion at about $500.00, the overnight stay at a hotel because you have a 24 hour wait, about $70.00, meals or snacks figure another $60.00 depending on what you eat. Lets not forget the time off of work, another 3 days, of money lost.
          I personally don’t know any women who can just fork out over $1200.00 for their abortion, without doing some serious planning.
          I don’t begin to see how you can compare birth control, childbirth or abortions to a one every 10 year paint job on your house.
          Since normal vaginal childbirth runs $4000. plus, a c-section runs $10,000. plus, I dammed well think preventing that is well worth the money. Because if childbirth is covered, and it is, it is one hell of a lot cheaper to pay up for the birth control.

          • Shan

            “If every woman earned enough to pay for an abortion, the car trip, (6
            hour average drive in Texas since most of the abortion clinics are east
            of I 35) cost both ways, but count on $90.00. the unneeded ultrasound,
            about $300.00 the abortion at about $500.00, the overnight stay at a
            hotel because you have a 24 hour wait, about $70.00, meals or snacks
            figure another $60.00 depending on what you eat. Lets not forget the
            time off of work, another 3 days, of money lost”

            Don’t forget the fact that 2/3 of the women who are doing all that already have children to care for, so you’d have to add in the extra cost of whatever it takes to either bring those children along or leave them at home.

          • JamieHaman

            You are right, I didn’t even think of childcare for all that, or the extra cost if a woman brings her kids with.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling
          • HeilMary1

            Childbirth in my area costs $20,000 plus.

          • expect_resistance

            When you add on the cost of prenatal care that cost goes up.

          • JamieHaman

            Wow, glad I don’t live where you do. Was that for a vaginal, or C-section? or a combination of both?
            I did an average across states. I didn’t see any numbers that high. What I’m thinking I should have done instead is to post a range of prices instead.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          Preventative care costs less in the long run. Stop the problem before it becomes a million dollar illness.

          • lonleylibertarian

            Unfortunately this is a myth in most cases. Mamograms actually can cause over treatment and over diagnosis. 100,000 people die each year in hospitals from infractions that have no relationship to why the patient is there.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            oh, so one example.

            woo! that sure is a slam-dunk

            not!

            And yes, people die in hospitals because doctors fuck up. Because hospitals don’t pay cleaning staff enough in wages and force them to clean too many rooms in a short amount of time – which results in bacterial spread

            However, things like colonoscopies and other treatments actually DO save lives and money if you can nip them in the bud. Early treatment is always more effective and lower in cost than spending millions when the problem becomes too big to treat.

            A friend of mine had a brain tumour. Only, she didn’t qualify for medicare when it was tiny – she could still work. She was not able to get treatment for it until it was the size of a golfball, at which point, she had to undergo very expensive very dangerous surgery. If her tumour had been dealth with *immediately* the super-expensive surgery would not have been needed, and she would not have been rendered permanently absent from the work force due to the injuries sustained from non-treatment.

          • lonleylibertarian

            No to colonoscopies – no to PSA test – in fact PSA test is now strongly recommended AGAINST – but is still frequently ordered by Doc who need the fee to make their car payment.

            And hospital infections are often totally unrelated to the quality of care. Having a catheter in – or an IV line in place is an infection waiting to happen. The longer they are in the higher the probability of an infection setting in. And 1 in 7 who get such infections die – regardless of the treatment or their health prior.

            We have gotten very good at finding microscopic tumors – we conduct more scans than the rest of the world combined. But finding these small tumors often leads to surgery – and surgery is risky. The data on Prostate cancers is pretty mixed – for many men the best thing to do with slow growing tumors is nothing – my Father-in-Law passed away at 92 with a medium sized prostate cancer – they knew about it for ten years. Do some research on the quality of life post surgery for Prostate cancer patients and you may not be such a huge fan of preventive med.

          • Arekushieru

            And you think it becomes LESS risky the bigger it gets? Yeah, no wonder we no longer have any patience for or willingness to listen to you. And please do tell me how many people of these 10,000 died because they contracted INFECTIONS. Otherwise, your point actually drives home the NEED for birth control to be covered. Especially since it’s been proven that for the insurance companies, themselves, coverage for pregnancy would be FAR more expensive than coverage for birth control, and it would result in FAR fewer deaths than even the rate of the current maternal mortality statistics in the US. Citation that PSA test is only needed by Doctors for their fees, too, btw. And, given that your father-in-law was EIGHTY TWO when they did discover the cancer, that provides the reason why they didn’t remove it. Not because of RISK, AT ALL. But because his life expectancy wasn’t expected to increase with the removal (it might actually have an overall net DECREASE, especially given that the risk of surgeries ARE affected by age). Seriously.

          • lady_black

            Prostate cancers are generally so slow-growing that far more men pass away *with* prostate cancer than from it, and yes there are grave quality of life concerns after prostate surgery. That’s why it’s not as popular as it once was. Indwelling catheters and IV lines are not placed for the fun of it, they are used for short-term medical needs, such as during surgery or for treatment of MRSA infections, PICC lines are an alternative to peripheral IV lines.

          • fiona64

            See, it’s dummies like the one to whom you are responding that have convinced me that the whole Libertarian/Objectivist movement is a joke. I guarantee that if it were something that affected *his* health, he’d be all up in a stink about how it was his right to have something covered … but since it’s just the wimmenfolk, well, eff them, he’s got his, after all. So it’s all good.

            Feh.

            A young friend of mine (age 23) would be dead right now if it were not for the ACA. She was young enough to still be on her dad’s insurance when her uterine cancer was discovered … she had to undergo radical hysterectomy, but she’s alive. Otherwise, she would have been a) homeless due to medical bankruptcy or b), dead.

            So, screw these anti-ACA people who think that it’s a waste of time and money to make sure that people can see the doctor. They’re the same jerks who wanted single-payer off the table, so they can just suck it.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            And health care costs are cheaper all around in socialist democracies because of preventative care, amongst other things (no parasitic insurance companies).

          • fiona64

            Yep. I’ve sung the praises of the French health care system enough for any 10 people, so I won’t go through that again … just nodding along in agreement with you.

          • expect_resistance

            Totally agree that the Libertarian/Objectivist movement is a joke.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A dear friend of mine discovered a lump through her mammogram–it turned out to be cancer, but because she had regular mammograms she caught it very early and had a simple surgery followed by a round of chemo–she’s seven years cancer free.

          • lonleylibertarian

            Google Canadian Mammogram Study. Please let me be clear – I DO think women – particularly women at higher risk need a regular doctor visit and breast exam – some say every year – some say every two years. The Canadian study found that this alternative was just as effective as mammograms – and slightly better at avoiding false positives and unnecessary surgery.

            And I am fine with this being covered as part of Obamacare or any other insurance. What I am not fine with is Doctors who need to pay for the machine they bought augmenting their income by over use of the technology – at the expense of others.

          • HeilMary1

            Over-treatment is no excuse for denying life-saving prevention for people who WANT IT.

          • lonleylibertarian

            Again – health insurance is NOT health care – you will be amazed at how happy doctors are to take your money and not have to do all the paperwork.

            So you are perfectly free to go get any health care you want or think you need – nobody is “denying” you anything other than a blank check to have other pay for things that are of little or no value – that is not me – that is the way Obamacare is going to work – do the reading and research you will see that things will need to be effective to get paid for – we talked about PSA tests – three years ago these were covered – one a year for men over 50 in most plans.

            Now they are not only not covered – they are not recommended.

            The data on mammograms is currently under review – if it is found that one a year after age 40 is not warranted it does not mean you will be “denied” a mammogram – it just means you will have to pay for it – unless you can get it covered via the political route.

        • Arekushieru

          Home owners insurance (and, again, I can’t BELIEVE YOU are the one accusing us of not having patience and an unwillingness to listen) insures you against fire, hurricanes, breaking and entering MUCH LIKE health insurance for contraception insures women against unexpected occurrences, like PREGNANCY, which are very expensive, AS we have already told YOU and many OTHER people on this thread. Pregnancy is also very RARE compared to the other outcomes that one can generally expect from having sexual intercourse, ovaries, uteri, fallopian tubes, vaginas, prostates, etc…. Thanks for PLAYING!

          Finally, if health insurance is bad for healthy people in general, you could say the same about home-owner’s insurance, unless and until their home became old and in disrepair (and thus NEED the VERY things that you claimed that type of insurance should NOT be for), they should not NEED home owners insurance. But, I guess it’s only when it comes to health insurance that it’s a bad idea that those who don’t immediately REQUIRE it should NOT get it. Hypocrisy.

    • Jennifer Starr

      I don’t have cable–don’t need it–my TV is nineteen inches, which is as big as it needs to be for me, and I have a cell phone that only makes and takes calls. Your point?

    • goatini

      “mucking up insurance with this stuff”

      All of my health insurance plans, for the last 40 years, covered medically prescribed contraception, because it is prescription medicine. Just proves that this kerfuffle is all about misogynists who hate that women now have personal agency, since I don’t see any carping about “mucking up insurance” with insulin for diabetics who may have eaten their way into their disorder; or Chantix for smokers who most certainly have enabled their own disorders, just for example.

      • Shan

        “All of my health insurance plans, for the last 40 years, covered medically prescribed contraception,”

        You’re freaking lucky there. Kudus to your insurance company!

        • goatini

          To be fair, insurance coverage of contraception was never a big hairy deal until about the last 15 years or so. Fortunately I worked for progressive companies that weren’t looking for opportunities to illegally discriminate against female employees, or wives of male employees.

          • Shan

            Same here. I guess I grew up in that era where we considered contraceptive coverage a done deal. Apparently not, as we’re finding out now, because some of us are having to fight the same battles our moms and their contemporaries did.

      • lady_black

        I wish I had been so lucky.

        • goatini

          I even filled BCP prescriptions under plan, years after my (covered) tubal ligation, for treatment of unpleasant perimenopausal symptoms.

          PS, my tubal ligation was covered only after a huge fight with the insurer, who at the time covered vasectomies, but not tubals. The new laparoscopic surgery had just been introduced (now performed as outpatient, but at the time required an overnight hospital stay), and I successfully argued that the insurer would not be paying for my pregnancies…

          • redlemon

            A few years ago, my insurance covered some BCP, but not the IUD. My husband and I crunched costs and decided to pay out of pocket for the IUD, $375 plus office visit. Years later, after my daughter was born from a very expensive, fully insurance covered pregnancy, I found out that the IUD was suddenly covered, as well as pretty much any form of birth control you could imagine, which went into effect about a month after my daughter was born. Since we have a very small insurance group, I often joke that they saw how much a pregnancy can cost and instantly signed up for birth control.

            They also did this with their mental health plans, shortly after I demonstrated how much a week in a psych ward costs compared to just doctor visits.

      • expect_resistance

        Well said!

    • Ramanusia

      It’s paid for by insurance premiums, so there is your question answered, you may now butt out of other people’s health care decisions.

      Forcing someone to pay extra for something they’re already paying for is also theft, and abuse, or fraud.

      Insurance has always covered it, and pretending that hormonal pills which greatly affect health is somehow not a part of health care is simply moronic. Health insurance is paid for by the individual paying the premium, and her preventive care is covered, mucking up the issue with your ignorance is stupid.

    • fiona64

      Yet another man bitching that condoms aren’t covered.

      Well, neither is any other OTC medication.

      • lonleylibertarian

        Wow – you folks really are great – very understanding and willing to listen to alternative points of view.

        NO!

        I don’t want condems covered
        - or viagra
        - or penis pumps
        - or sex therapy
        - or a whole lot of crap the got included in Obamacare that has little or
        no evidence supporting it’s effectiveness.

        Taken on their own no one of these things would have a substantial effect on premiums – but a complete overhaul of what is included in “basic” Obamacare is the ONLY way that premiums and deductibles will come down.

        I do think that if they can sell BC pills over the counter in Europe it might be something we could look into – to reduce costs and make sure they are easily/readily available – YES I support these things.

        I do know that BC pills are not risk free – my wife had to use an alternative since she could not tolerate the pill – a while back so I am sure formulas have changed.

        I do think that if generic versions are available under one of the many generic drug programs – Wal Mart, Target, Kroger, Publix etc they are pretty affordable – cheaper than going to a movie these days.

        Once again, thank you all so much for your patience and willingness to listen ;-)

        • fiona64

          Citation for BC pills being sold “over the counter in Europe,” especially since one size does NOT fit all when it comes to hormonal contraception.

          BTW, the word is “condom.”

        • Arekushieru

          Citation for how ‘cheap’ birth control has become, because I certainly don’t think YOU have ever used it, HAVE you? For MANY women even nine dollars is an out of pocket expense that THEY CAN’T AFFORD, at least NOT without forcing children already IN their care to go without.

          And, if you had come on here right away with respect instead of the USUAL misogynistic tripe that immediately ignored all other types of coverage that hinged on contingencies similar to birth control, but only applied to MEN, and that looked at birth control in isolation like pretty much every other MALE on this thread and in society in general, maybe you might have gotten more patience and willingness to listen. Kay THANKS!

          And if YOU were more willing to listen maybe WE would be even MORE willing to listen. I’ll REPEAT my earlier question to you: HOW many times MUST we tell you people that the premiums will NOT decrease OR increase, whether or NOT they cover contraception, which is related to the very REASON that insurance companies, THEMSELVES, prefer to cover birth control rather than pregnancy, because the PREMIUMS don’t increase, but the amount of COVERAGE that an insurance company will be required to provide DOES, before getting tired of beating our heads against a wall is ‘permissible’ (I mean, even SUPERMAN would get tired of it, eventually, even though it DOESN’T hurt him, which is absolutely NOT the case, here)?

        • lady_black

          I can’t find any evidence of birth control pills being sold OTC in Europe, other than the emergency contraceptives that are OTC. This is not a solution.

    • Lieutenant Nun

      Penus pumps are covered by medicare and the government will even overpay for them.

    • kimbriel

      I don’t think you understand how poor some people in this country are. Many don’t have cell phones or cable, and can’t afford a child. You may not consider birth control a basic health need, but for women, women’s health is just that… a HEALTH ISSUE. If IUDs are so cheap over time, let insurance pay for them. It’s either that or $14,000 in prenatal and delivery costs.

  • shtstr

    I give to and support care net that advises women to keep their children and not to kill them as you do. care net does sonograms for the expectant mothers so that they can see their babies. they also show them a video of a baby execution (abortion) with audio so that they can hear the pain and agony that their child goes thru. if after all of this they choose to kill their babies then they have no feelings, are cold evil people.

    • L-dan

      Awesome…which has nothing to do with the article at hand.

      I’ll be flagging you for the massive derail.

      • expect_resistance

        Thank you :)

      • Arekushieru

        For one, shtstr seems to be unaware that by SUPPORTING the mandate of contraceptives for poorer women he can avoid fetuses being ‘tortured’ and ‘maimed’ as he likes to believe they are in his fantasy world (btw, Anand’s article on fetal pain would be really handy right now, to show this ignorant ASS how fetuses can’t feel pain at the time MOST abortions are performed, even when taking into account that it has been documented that they can experience pain through nocireceptors even though they aren’t myelinated. It seems like he should ALSO be shown that fetuses are in an induced coma-like state throughout most of the pregnancy, so are unable to feel pain, anyways. AND that there is a REASON that pregnant women CANNOT TAKE medication during that time, specifically BECAUSE it could have at least TWICE the effect on the FETUS. A woman would need pain medication to undergo a surgical abortion, therefore the fetus will most likely be UNABLE TO FEEL PAIN.). For two, if he was REALLY concerned about someone being tortured and maimed in abortion, he would be EQUALLY concerned about women who ACTUALLY get tortured and maimed during CHILDBIRTH. After all, even a friend of mine whose labour lasted for the duration of TEN MINUTES has said that it was the worst pain she had ever felt, because it was all BACK labour, which is especially strenuous on women. Also, MANY, if not most, women barely have the chance to receive an epidural (as was the case for BOTH of my mom’s deliveries), before it’s TOO LATE.

        You provide money to care net that advises women on how to kill themselves? Wow, how Pro-’Life’ of you.

        My mom had an abortion before she had my sibling. If my mom had NOT had the abortion, my sibling, QUITE FUCKING LITERALLY, would not be here. So, my mom should regret the birth of her child is what you’re saying…. Um, HELL to the NO. And she’s a much better parent than my Pro-LIFE aunt. Who shows very LITTLE affection for her children.

        Someone who listens to AUDIO of their spouse undergoing forced labour and delivery even WITH pain meds and still thinks that they should be able to force them to undergo what is, in simplest terms, EXCRUCIATINGLY painful slave labour, while they know they will never be required/forced to undergo such torture themselves is the REALLY cold and evil person. In fact, I would rate them as high as SATAN. Oh, does the TRUTH hurt?

        You also want women to be raped by medical instrument. You are just too SICK for words. Please. SEEK HELP.

        Not a baby and abortion is not killing.

        • HeilMary1

          “You provide money to care net that advises women on how to kill themselves? Wow, how Pro-’Life’ of you.”

          Exactly!

    • Ella Warnock

      Your histrionics are duly noted.

    • HeilMary1

      Care net should be sued for not informing women of frequent deadly pregnancy risks like sepsis, organ failures, and bladder and bowel incontinence. You’d get an abortion in a minute to avoid humiliating incontinence, limb-amputating sepsis, and organ transplants.

    • Jennifer Starr

      And this has what to do with the article?

      Did you even read the article?

  • lady_black

    In reply to shtstr: That has WHAT exactly to do with contraception? So you give to people who lock the barn door after the horse escapes? Big deal. And not very bright, either.

    • goatini

      Username “shitstirrer” should be a big tip-off…

      • expect_resistance

        Bingo!

      • L-dan

        hence flagging. Not worth the time and effort.

      • fiona64

        Yet another 5×5 handle? Whodathunkit?

        • lady_black

          This one is too dumb to be him. It thinks a fetus makes sounds during an abortion.

    • JamieHaman

      No joke, a sonogram and a video. Big lot of nothing when the rent needs paying.

      • lady_black

        Don’t forget the dollar store pregnancy test, which they will give the results to you after:
        1) Telling you not to use contraceptives because it’s terribly dangerous, and you know, s|utty. And contraceptives don’t work and stuff.
        2) Asking you personal questions about your family, the potential father, and your religious beliefs.
        3) Telling you if you’ve been raped you must have done something to invite it.
        4) Possibly showing you graphic abortion pictures, along with a boatload of lies about the dangers of abortion, and false and misleading information about fetal development.
        5) Making you sit through a bunch of Christianist bi-bull babble and offering to “pray with you.”
        If the test is positive, they’ll offer you a blanket and a pack of diapers (maybe) and pat you on the head and send you on your way. If the test is negative NO referral for contraceptives will be made.

        • expect_resistance

          You’re scaring me. This sounds like a dystopian horror movie, but sadly I know this is reality.

          • JamieHaman

            The scary part for me is that instead of Planned Parenthood, this useless care net type of “care” is what Rick Perry is spending tax dollars on. Waste of money. Wasted lives of women.

          • colleen2

            Crisis Pregnancy centers are a welfare jobs program for the otherwise unemployable women of the religious right.

          • lady_black

            Read some undercover investigations on CPCs. That’s where I got the information from. It is scary, and it’s also true.

          • Shan

            Holy shit. I thought it was bad enough when I got the major stink-eye (and re-routed from the drive-through to inside the store) when I tried to buy EC.

  • Circutz

    I don’t think this is a religious issue. This is not a medication you need for a medical problem. Insurance should not pay for this. Use a condom if you don’t want pregnancy.

    • lady_black

      The DOCTOR who wrote the article disagrees with you.

    • red_zone

      Because condoms never fail right?

      it goes beyond preventing pregnancy. Women use BC for medical conditions and really… pregnancy is DANGEROUS. It may not seem like it, but it can be. It carries all manner of health risks to the woman and can impede her well-being. Prove otherwise.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Actually, this is a medication. It’s a prescription medication, which my insurance covers. If you don’t like that, that’s your problem–not mine.

    • kimbriel

      you’re a moron.. first of all, condoms break. Secondly, there are MANY, MANY reasons why women are on birth control, and pregnancy prevention is NOT the only reason

    • Arekushieru

      Some women are allergic to latex and pregnancy IS a medical condition, unless you are going to say that being pregnant is a woman’s ‘natural’ state (which I would very STRONGLY advise against advertising such if you DO believe that), and considering it IS the second leading cause of death for women WORLDWIDE, as a matter of fact, I would classify that as not ONLY a medical condition but a medical PROBLEM. (Let me guess, since you spoke out on this while OBVIOUSLY knowing nothing about this, you’re male. Then, if that’s true, do you know what you just did is called? Mansplaining. Which proves you’re a misogynist.)

    • L-dan

      Did you even read the article? Do you have any refutation of the actual points above where birth control *is* shown to be something important for health?

    • Suba gunawardana

      If insurance shouldn’t pay for the prevention of pregnancy, it shouldn’t pay for childbirth & pre/post natal care either.

      • lady_black

        True. But really irrelevant to the article.