‘The Silent Sex,’ Parents Against Sex Ed, and Anti-Choice Tactics


Related Links

Sleazy protester tactics

Rachel Maddow on sleazy protester tactics

Fremont sex education controversy

Men have all sorts of rights, but women apparently have not even the most basic ones

Transcript

On this episode of Reality Cast, I’ll be speaking with a researcher on the problem with women not getting heard, even when it really counts. New recordings show how sleazy anti-choice protesters are and even the Bay Area has parents against decent sex education.

BuzzFeed had a hilarious video called “What Men Are Really Saying When Catcalling Women,” where men say what’s actually going on with them, but you know, in the same idiot tones they use when cat-calling women.

  • cat-calling *

I’d add to that, “I’d never do this to a woman who is accompanied by a man, because I think that women are male property!”

***************

Thanks to Andrea Grimes at RH Reality Check for bringing this story to my attention. Progress Texas and NARAL Pro-Choice Texas got some audio of anti-choice protesters holding trainings on how to use intimidation, under the guise of protest, to try to force women to have babies they don’t want to have. While anti-choicers like to portray themselves to the public as kind-hearted Christians who just want to talk to women and hopefully persuade them with their arguments, what NARAL discovered was that anti-choice protesters, in actuality, prefer to use intimidation, shaming, and force.

Karen Garnett, the director of an anti-choice Catholic group in North Texas, explained how to use stalking as a helpful intimidation tactic in order to try to scare women out of abortion and to scare providers, as well as to perhaps dig up information for legal harassment.

  • anti 1 *

With this, you really get a good idea of how legislators are working in conjunction with anti-choice harassment and intimidation crews in order to run women off of safe, legal abortion and push them either toward forced childbirth or, in many cases, toward less safe black market abortions. The legislators pass a mandatory waiting period law, requiring a woman to come to the clinic twice. The first time she comes, the antis make a big fuss out of recording her license plate to let her know she is being watched by people who believe that they are the rightful owners of her body and not her. Then she knows that if she returns for the abortion, they are stalking her. That’s got to be incredibly scary. But if there was any doubt at all that the purpose of this exercise is not persuasion but intimidation, Garnett made it clear that scaring women and using fear as a weapon to control them is the point.

  • anti 2 *

They’re stalking you because they want to “help” you choose life! Yeah, that’s the ticket. By the same logic, your possessive ex-boyfriend is stalking you because he just wants to help you choose to have a relationship with him, even though you know, you already told him no. Using fear and intimidation to control people is not about helping them, full stop. Antis are just so used to making the bad faith argument equating attacks with help and force with kindness that words like “help” don’t mean anything to them. The actual help is on the inside of the clinic. You can tell, because inside the clinic they ask you what you need and do what they can to meet your needs. They don’t try to scare you into doing what they want you to do. There’s a huge difference.

But lest there be any doubt that these people know they aren’t helping and know they are there to hurt, the next speaker, Eileen Romano, explained how to exploit poor women’s poverty to bully them into having children they don’t want.

  • anti 3 *

“God is good.” That is the conclusion of someone who wants to exploit women’s poverty to hurt them. I’m not a Christian, but I have read the Bible and I don’t remember the part where Jesus said that his followers should target poor people for abuse and exploitation because they’re poor and they don’t have any alternatives. Jesus said you should help poor people. He was very clear on this. But anti-choicers are explaining to each other how great poverty is, because it makes it so much easier to force women to do what you want them to do. Damn.

The cruelty and viciousness that undergirds the anti-choice movement was also evident during protests in New Orleans recently, which I covered in an interview with Teddy Wilson here at Reality Cast. But Rachel Maddow also did a segment on it for her show.

  • anti 4 *

Here’s the thing I try to remind people of, over and over: If your arguments are good, persuade people with your arguments. Use logic. Use rhetoric. But if you find yourself resorting to force and bullying, it’s because your arguments aren’t any good. You know you can’t persuade people, so you try to use force instead. So you have to ask yourself, how sure are you really of your arguments if you know in your heart you can’t persuade people, so you resort to threats and force instead? I have to say you clearly aren’t sure at all.

***************

Interview

***************

There’s a widespread myth that everyone in the Bay Area is super liberal and even downright radical when it comes to sex positivity. And while that’s definitely a big part of the culture out there, for which I tip my hat, the fact of the matter is that people who get completely unbent at the idea that sex is supposed to be fun are found in every corner of this country. And now the Fremont school district is having a battle over these new textbooks that are taught in ninth grade health because the sex education information in there does not hide the fact that sex is supposed to be fun and playful.

  • fremont 1 *

There’s two basic categories of people who throw a fit over sex education. You have your religious conservatives who really do think that sex is naughty and evil and who attack sex education because they want to make it so hard to teach anything useful in school that schools either give up or institute programs telling kids they’re going to hell unless they wait until marriage. But you also have people who may not be anti-sex exactly, but they are confused. They assume that because they don’t feel ready to have kids that are interested in sex, then the kids themselves must not be ready. First of all, it’s important for parents to learn to separate their desire for their kids to be kids a little longer from the factual evidence that kids learn a lot more about this stuff than you’d think, and a lot faster.

But let’s also be clear that it’s absolutely true that most 14-year-olds are not ready to have sex yet, much less engage in sexting or bondage. To which I have to point out that this is true of, well, basically everything else you teach kids in school. We aren’t teaching kids writing skills so that their Facebook posts are more lucid. We aren’t teaching them math skills so they can, damn, I don’t even know what a teenager could use, say, calculus for in everyday life. The point of education is not to teach someone about something after they have already started to do it or use that knowledge. We teach them things so that, as they become adults and start to have more need for these skills, they are already prepared. That’s why it’s important to talk, in depth, with kids about sex before they start to have sex. So that when they start to explore, they have the tools to be safe.

And let’s be clear, this book is incredibly dry.

  • fremont 2 *

I am not even remotely surprised that some parents looked at the book and thought, what’s the big deal? The critics of the book are using alarmist, overblown language, such as calling it “pornography” or arguing that it “introduces” high schoolers to bondage. It does no such thing. It acknowledges that bondage is a thing that exists, which is not news to roughly any teenager who is permitted to leave the house or see the ads for Fifty Shades of Grey. Also, I think “bondage” is one of those words that people just feel primed to react negatively to, but the book simply describes it, accurately, as a game where you get tied up or blindfolded, which are games that nearly all sexually active people try at some point. Same thing with oral sex and masturbation. On the very slight chance that there’s a 14-year-old alive who hasn’t heard of these things, the fact of the matter is that they will hear about these things in high school. It’s far better for a kid to first encounter these concepts by having them drily and professionally explained rather than try to figure it out from jokes and bragging and other forms of peer-speak that might distort the realities or make them feel that these behaviors require being unsafe or disrespectful to partners.

Unfortunately, the school district didn’t or didn’t feel able to take this hard line and tell parents that it’s better for kids to know before they try rather than vice versa. Instead,there was minimizing of the impact of the text, which was only about 20 pages of the whole book.

  • fremont 3 *

That may be so, but it’s neither here nor there. Kids can be counted on to flip to the sex part and read it, being, you know, human. But that’s a good thing. Kids are curious about sex and will, whether you like it or not, seek out information. Better for that info to be accurate and safety-oriented than the fantasies offered in porn or the playground bragging that can distort perceptions. The school didn’t make a more full-throated defense of the books, so no big surprise, they eventually gave in and yanked the book, for review right now. Hopefully they’ll just wait for this temper tantrum to die out and put the books back in classrooms. Kids need this info, whether their parents like it or not, after all.

***************

And now for the Wisdom of Wingnuts, watch someone just simply ignore the possibility that women are human beings with rights at all edition. This is David Barton, right wing “historian” who mostly just lies about history, argue that being for abortion rights means being against liberty.

  • barton *

The fact that they don’t see women as really human couldn’t have been more distilled. A man’s right to own property, to have guns, to make money, all that is inalienable. But a woman’s right to determine something so basic as to whether or not to be pregnant, not a right. Because this is a worldview that doesn’t see women as rights-bearing people.

Follow Amanda Marcotte on twitter: @amandamarcotte

  • Bill Contrary

    I’ve never “catcalled” and can’t do the “whistle”, but I like to think if I could and did it would be taken as a compliment (or should be). I suppose there may well be a range of different types of catcalling and different motives, etc. at the base isn’t it meant to express appreciation of a woman’s beauty or physique? I think that getting upset over “objectification” is silly. Women think nothing of their brand of objectification – oohing and ahhing over everything “cute” – from male babies to male butts. They objectify all the time, and yet it’s male objectification (because it takes a different form) that is “wrong”. I say – unless the “catcalling” is particularly obnoxious or denigrating, surely the woman can see the compliment in there and take it as such.

    • Bill Contrary

      I see that Marcotte has written a more extensive piece on Slate about “catcalling”, but I’m not able to post there. I will say that her personal examples go beyond simple “catcalling” to pedophilia (sexualizing an 11 yrd old), sexualized gestures (which goes beyond compliment to harassment) and chasing after a girl in a car (which is also harassment). Once again, surely there is a range or continuum of behaviors. But certainly complimentary cat calling (that Doree Lewak enjoys) and sexual harassment (that Marcotte complains of) are not necessarily or not always one and the same. Is whistling at a woman really any different than a woman saying “nice ass” to a male stranger? Is every sexual compliment sexual harassment? Surely not.

      • fiona64

        Is whistling at a woman really any different than a woman saying “nice ass” to a male stranger?

        Catch a clue, buddy. The next time a woman does something like that will be the *first* time.

        • Bill Contrary

          I’m not your buddy, friend.

          • fiona64

            See that?

            It was the point, whizzing right over your head.

            Loser.

          • Bill Contrary

            You were supposed to respond “I’m not your pal, guy”.

          • Arekushieru

            She doesn’t HAVE to know all women to make that point. THAT is why she said the point flew right over your head. In order for women to do it in a manner that asserts women’s views of men as their PROPERTY as a RULE, they would have to be doing it on a regular basis. Since there are NOT consistent reports of women catcalling men, that is, by default, not the case. Therefore, the only other option you have to prove that women catcall men purely because they view them as property or objects is to understand the REASON they did it. Oops.

            And you just proved the reason why men catcall women. It really is funny when you MRAs put your foot in your mouth like this. If someone has to have ‘knowledge’ of your ass to make a comment on it, then it is purely because of an individual’s subjective (by default) opinion that you feel men have a right to comment on women’s physical appearance. That’s called appearance-shaming which targets women more often than men, and clearly feeds into the culture of MISOGYNY in which we all live.

          • fiona64

            Since there are NOT consistent reports of women catcalling men, that is, by default, not the case.

            Exactly.

            In his NYU sociology course, Harvey Moloch does the same experiment every semester. He asks students to raise their hands if their body has been remarked on in public (in other words, whether they’ve been catcalled), positively or negatively, in the past six months. Inevitably, every female hand goes up, with a couple of male hands. “Leave them up if it’s been in the past 90 days,” 30 days, one week, today … you get the picture. By that time, there are rarely any male hands still in the air … but still almost all of the women.

            However, he then asks, “What was the apparent gender of the person who made the remark.” In 100 percent of the cases, the answer is “male.”

          • Bill Contrary

            Men also don’t try to attract attention to their bodies the way women do. Women wear makeup, make a practice of concealing & revealing parts when they want to make different impressions, wear high heels that announce their approach with a sound and accentuate their legs, some “strut”, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong, but men generally don’t go to those lengths to seek attention from the other sex. Plus women seem to be more interested in “objects” than men – a man impresses a woman with his car or his money – not as much his body. The real “objectification” goes the other way.

          • fiona64

            Just when I thought you couldn’t stoop any lower, you drag out victim-blaming. I suspect you’re one of those guys who think that rape victims are “asking for it,” too.

            Let me use small words so that you cannot possibly mistake my meaning: a woman is NOT responsible for a man acting like a jerk by yelling “Nice rack” or “nice ass.” You can pretend to yourself all day long that those are compliments, but they are NOT.

            Ye gods. You make me sick.

          • cjvg

            Seriously, you must lower yourself to the “she asked for it” defense?
            No, you most certainly are not one of the good guys as you claim.

            Besides, I man receives a wedding ring from a woman he marries, and that diamond engagement ring tradition is only done in America!
            However, catcalling most certainly is not only done here

          • Bill Contrary

            It’s not appearance shaming to say someone is hot or catcall them – and that’s precisely Lewak’s point. It’s adoration and she enjoys the adoration. And that’s somehow threatening to you.

          • fiona64

            Hey, dummy, I suggest you blame Paul Elam and the rest of your imbecilic cabal for MRA. You’re the ones who call yourselves men’s rights activists, after all.

            It’s not appearance shaming to say someone is hot or catcall them – and
            that’s precisely Lewak’s point. It’s adoration and she enjoys the
            adoration.

            :Let me clue you in: no cat-call is “adoration,” even if you think it’s positive. Some catcalls are negative. Let me give you an example:

            “Hey, nice tits,” said the guy I was walking by. I ignored him.

            “Well, I wouldn’t want to fuck you anyway, bitch,” was the next thing out of his mouth.

            How is that a compliment? How is that even remotely “adoration”? what it *is* is a sense that this jerk (as with every other catcaller) is owed a positive response from a woman just by virtue of him addressing her. And why is that? Because he thinks women are *his property* to be remarked upon.

            Just like I said at the beginning of this exchange.

            And yes, it happens to every woman, everywhere, every goddamned day.

            The fact that you think otherwise means you are *part of the problem.*

          • Bill Contrary

            I’m not unsympathetic to your point of view but I think you are exaggerating somewhat. Someone saying “hey, nice t-ts” as in your example: 1. probably does think you have nice t-ts, but 2. is propositioning you for sex. I agree that that in that particular scenario any compliment is negated by the “put down”, and that the main purpose of the compliment is to proposition for sex – but I have to disagree with your conclusion that someone asking you for sex views you as property. I mean, people don’t ask items of property for sex. If they’re going to have sex with objects, they don’t ask – they just do it. I think you go too far in likening the encounter to “property”. The guy in your example tried a sexual compliment as a pick-up line and was rejected and then took offense at the rejection and hurled an insult. What you are describing is more of a failed pick-up line than a catcall. When I think “catcall” I’m thinking more of the classic construction workers whistling at a woman scenario (as outlined in Lewak’s example) – that is much more complimentary, and the group of construction workers is NOT asking the woman for group sex. It’s a totally different scenario.

          • fiona64

            NO, YOU STUPID POS, IT IS NOT EVEN REMOTELY DIFFERENT.

            GAH.

          • Bill Contrary

            OK…well help me out here. What are you saying here? Men are not supposed to see women sexually? Or they are allowed to but not allowed to remark on it? They have to be in a relationship with the woman first to comment on their attractiveness? What does a guy do if he sees a hot female stranger in passing that he’s interested in? Apparently he doesn’t tell her she’s attractive…you have me unsure of what’s acceptable behavior and what’s not.

          • fiona64

            What does a guy do if he sees a hot female stranger in passing that he’s interested in dating or sleeping with? Apparently he doesn’t tell her she’s attractive

            Catch a clue, buddy. Yelling “Nice tits” is not saying “You’re attractive.”

            I know that this is a novel concept to a guy like you, but an approach like “Hi, my name is Bill. What’s yours?” is a good place to start. Oh, and actually look at her face instead of her “rack,” as you put it. I know, behaving like an actual human being is hard.

            .And what does a guy do if he just wants to compliment a hot woman on
            her looks but isn’t interested in dating or sleeping with her?

            If you cannot confine your remarks to “You look nice today,” then just keep your idiotic mouth shut. That’s not so hard, is it?

          • Bill Contrary

            “Hi, my name is Bill. What’s yours?” Doesn’t really make any sense to me. One it’s saccharine. Two I have the feeling it automatically puts you in the friend zone. Three it’s completely forgettable and not “magic” or “romantic”. I also feel it’s not really honest – I feel like if you’re interested in a woman, you have to lead with some compliment or you’re sort of just faking an introduction of yourself for no obvious reason. I’m trying to hear what you’re saying but I also am skeptical that any guy who approached women the way you suggest would pique their interest in any way or have any success. I mean, this “Hi my name is Bill”, “you look nice today” guy sounds like a pretty vanilla nobody. I’m pretty sure no romantic male lead in a movie ever opened with that. As crude (and apparently offensive) as it is, at least “nice tits” guy has personality and may get a laugh. He may offend, but he’ll be memorable. You do see the problem here?

          • cjvg

            Boy are you lost. Cat calling has never gotten any man a date (unless there was an exchange of funds involved) Nary a woman thinks getting yelled “nice rack” at her is cute or funny. Even lewak your new self appointed spooks person for all females did NOT say she goes trolling for a date with men who catcall!

            Women do not have interest in men who display their need to intimidate and objectify women up front. You actually have to wait until she is in a relationship with you, reread your abusers handbook.
            Not one single ;”how did you meet” question is ever answered with “O’ he was catcalling me on the street an I liked it so much I gave him my number!

          • Bill Contrary

            Women choose to date intimidating and objectifying men all the time. My current girlfriend’s ex was abusive and body shaming and controlled what she ate and made her run to lose weight and and she was with him for YEARS. She even dated him the whole time she was at a women’s college! In fact, the women’s college was partially his idea – because then she wouldn’t meet any other men. How messed up is that? At my workplace – women love the misogynist men. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you feminists, when you’re not calling people like me that simply intellectually disagree with you over minutiae, go home to your (real) misogynist boyfriends.

          • fiona64

            Oh, so now it’s “You can’t handle it”?

            Why in the flaming FUCK should we be expected to “handle” sexual harassment every time we leave the goddamned house? And yes, that is what cat-calling is: sexual harassment.

          • cjvg

            What a pathetic, ridiculous and patently false attempt at recasting of the actual subject we are discussing, you make.
            The issue here is that you insist women must be forced to accept unwanted unsolicited and demeaning “compliments” unknown men on the street want to holler at them for their amusement!
            Your so called intellectual disagreement has actual real life consequences for women. So easy for you to dismiss as irrelevant, not so easy for the women who must live with the reality.
            There is NO GOOD REASON why men must accost completely unknown women on the street. Why do you continue to claim this is normal behavior?
            As for your completely inapplicable “real-life” ex girlfriends boyfriend story, did she start dating him because he catcalled her on the street? Obviously that is what the real question was, but you do not want to face reality do you.
            Someone who is this dishonest and unable to debate without attempting to conflate complete different issues just to have some semblance of argument is just not worth my time! I feel sorry for your girlfriend, it seems she continues to pick abusive a$$holes

          • Bill Contrary

            “Forced to accept”? I never said you were forced to accept anything. Someone whistles at you – you’re free to 1. ignore them. 2. leave and go on your way. 3. shout something hostile at them expressing your anger. What exactly are you asking for? That they be prohibited by law from whistling or speaking their mind to a passerby on a public street? It’s free speech. I thought the Left supported that once. Someone catcaling you in a work environment is harassment. Some stranger doing it on the street – is not. They have no professional relationship with you. If you can walk up to them and say what you want, they can do the same to you.

          • fiona64

            Someone catcaling you in a work environment is harassment. Some stranger doing it on the street – is not.

            Yes, it god-fucking-damned well IS harassment.

          • cjvg

            Show some common decency! There is no need for you to holler sexual remarks at strangers who happen to be women, especially since you are well aware that the majority of women find this very objectionable and it makes them uncomfortable!

          • cjvg

            People like you who continue to engage in behavior that they are well aware is unpleasant and abusive to those it is directed at, can only be considered sociopaths who clearly have no moral or social imperative to consider the feelings of others.

            Even more so since you will not suffer one iota from not catcalling women , although it would certainly improve the public life of most women.

            One can only conclude that you are either a rabid raving misogynist who enjoys inflicting unnecessary emotional distress on women, or an anti-social psychopath who has no interest in improving society. Personally I go with the misogynist since there is no indication (yet) that you are just as invested in harassing and abusing men

          • cjvg

            Targeting specific groups of people for public (verbal) harassment is most certainly illegal. However misogyny is so ingrained in our “culture” that as long as the victims are women no one thinks twice.

            For instance if instead of women you and those like you would consistently target a racial minority group for unsolicited and unwanted verbal harassment, you would be charged with a hate crime even if you claim you are complimenting them.

            Women are not here on earth for your or any other men’s pleasure. Women are not possessions. If we are on the sidewalk going somewhere, we are not invading your or any other man’s space and we have every right to be there without being subjected to your need to catcall us for your own pleasure.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You are a moron. It is harassment IN the workplace AND on the street. It’s just a different legal cause of action. FFS. Of course, most street harassment is not actionable, just like most workplace harassment is not actionable.

          • fiona64

            He has the audacity to say If you were a captive audience or its pervasive- then, maybe it’s harassment. after being told repeatedly that this is, indeed, a pervasive problem?

            GAH!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I prepared my daughters for this crap before they were pubescent. My Lizzy, red hair green eyes figure like Marilyn Monroe, started getting the following in a car and catcalling bit at age 12. She once stopped dead in the street and said to some guy “What are you? 40 years old? I am 12. Fuck off.” And she said it LOUD. I was so proud.

          • fiona64

            I started getting catcalls at age 12 as well. It didn’t make me feel “good” or “empowered” or “complimented.” It scared the bejeezus out of me. I was just walking to the corner store for a soda; some adult male yelling “nice ass” at me out of his car window was NOT a compliment.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Ugh. “Severe and pervasive”- I do not think that word means what Bill think it means.
            PSA: Attention, morons who don’t understand harassment!!!

            All catcalls are harassment. Even if it’s just a one-time thing. This is true whether it is in the work place, on the street, or in a grocery store. Every instance of unwanted sexual advance or comment is an instance of harassment.

            In order for “harassment” to be actionable (ie, you can SUE your employer and recover civil damages), the harassment must be “sufficiently severe and pervasive to constitute a hostile work environment.” This is the standard under federal law. What constitutes severe and pervasive varies by federal circuit. However, the important part of the story is that the unwanted sexual advances or comments don’t need to be “severe and pervasive” to be considered harassment- they already ARE harassment- but the amount and nature of the harassment needs to be “severe and pervasive” enough so that you can sue your harasser’s boss and win. For example, one rape by a co-worker can constitute severe and pervasive harassment, whereas it might take several instances of groping and commenting over the course of months to meet the “severe and pervasive” standard. Again, the comments and groping are STILL harassment, just not actionable in a court of law against a third party until you reach a certain threshold.

            “one-time comments, that’s called living in a world with people who are different than you.”
            If I tell you that I want to shove a broom handle up your a**, is that a threat, or is it simply living in a world where people are different than you?

          • Unicorn Farm

            So you are justifying misogynistic behavior because your ex dated an abusive man? You think that because she stayed with him, that means women LIKE abuse and its OK? GTFO.

            “Who’s the *real* feminist here – nitwits whining about how terrible it is to be whistled at as a woman – or someone who thinks women are strong enough not be permanent social cripples from being whistled at?”

            You realize you sound like an abuser, right? Telling women that “real feminists” simply take their harassment and then insulting them for speaking up about it?

            “Maybe I’m a crazy free speech libertarian”
            Yes, you do sound crazy.
            “but I believe women can take a whistle from a stranger in the street in stride.”
            So what? Who cares what you think? Why does your opinion about what I should be able to “take in stride” matter at all?
            ” Why don’t you? Don’t you all have much bigger fish to fry?
            First, just because a problem isn’t the BIGGEST problem doesn’t mean its not a problem. Second, as has been explained to you, street harassment is one part of larger issues-namely, rape culture and the objectification of women.

          • Arekushieru

            And, guess what, we are exercising OUR right to free speech, when we CRITICIZE him. Oo. He’s not a free-speech libertarian, he’s a freeze-peacher.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Ohhhh I would really love a frozen peach smoothie right now :)

          • Arekushieru

            Let’s take a page from Bill’s book: Who’s the *real* misogynist, here – nitwits whining about how terrible it is that men are whistling at women – or someone who thinks men aren’t strong enough not to be permanent social ‘cripples’ from not being able to whistle at them?

            You see, Bill, here, applies a double standard, that women must be strong enough, but men, in order to guard their fragile egos, can do whatever they want. And THAT is the DEFINITION of misogyny.

          • fiona64

            “Hi, my name is Bill. What’s yours?” Doesn’t really make any sense to
            me. One it’s saccharine. Two I have the feeling it automatically puts
            you in the friend zone.

            That’s because you’re an insincere buffoon who is apparently incapable of treating women as human beings.

            I’m a survivor of domestic violence, loser-boy. Your suggestion that behaving like an asshat is the best way to meet women suggests to me that you would be Just. Like. My. Ex.

            I am not at all surprised that you have no idea how to talk to women; you think we’re subhuman and not worthy of a polite greeting.

            PS: Most of us are no longer in middle or high school. If that’s where you’re shopping for dates, much is now explained.

          • Bill Contrary

            Oh, Fiona, I asked a sincere question but you’re in troll mode and rather than give me a sincere reply you just used it for material for a put down. Whatever.

          • fiona64

            You did not either ask a sincere question. And you know it.

          • Bill Contrary

            It was a sincere question. If you don’t believe me, you don’t believe me.
            If I tried to steamroll anyone’s opinion it was with arguments treating them as equals. Logic, good or bad. It wasn’t constant derision, humiliation and intimidation.
            Catcalling just ISN’T that bad. It ISN’T.
            Clearly this isn’t the audience for that opinion – because you’re all radical fems, survivors of domestic abuse that now have control issues, or other-wise super sensitive about something. I’m sorry. I thought you were just aggressive & playfully trolling me in return – I didn’t realize that you were extremely sensitive and not open to reason or argument on this. No hard feelings – I wish you well.

          • fiona64

            It occurs to me that maybe because you didn’t answer me you and your husband met through the internet,

            This is my absolute last response to you.

            My husband and I met at a public event. And do you know how we met? He walked up to me and said “Hi. I’m (name). How’re you doing?”

            Yeah, I know. Treating a woman like a human being instead of a piece of meat. What a novel concept, eh?

          • Bill Contrary

            Well, wow – that sure was simple. You just answered the question I asked you several posts back. It wasn’t that painful, was it? Geesh!

          • fiona64

            Go back to beating your girlfriend Inflate-a-Date; your gaslighting bullshit doesn’t work here.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t believe you have a girlfriend, Mr. Contrary. In fact, I don’t believe you’ve ever had a relationship with any woman, period. Inflatable ones don’t count.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Catcalling just ISN’T that bad. It ISN’T.”

            Wait, I thought we weren’t allowed to steam roll over other people’s opinions???

            “Clearly this isn’t the audience for that opinion – because you’re all radical fems, survivors of domestic abuse that now have control issues, or other-wise super sensitive about something. I’m sorry. I thought you were just aggressive & playfully trolling me in return at first – I didn’t realize that you had “baggage” and not open to either reason or argument on this. I feel great sympathy for women with abuse issues and histories – but I won’t let them abuse me down or use the psychological tricks they learned from their abusers on me”
            Quit with the gaslighting and GTFO.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “steamroll other people’s opinions.

            You mean the way you have done with every single woman here who told you that cat-calling is not complimenting, and that it’s sexual harassment?”
            + 1,000,000

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I have been nothing but polite with you in post after post ”
            False. You have harassed Fiona and others all over this thread.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I feel like if you’re interested in a woman, you have to lead with some meaningful compliment or you’re sort of just faking an introduction of yourself for no obvious reason.”

            For no obvious reason? How about, um, introducing yourself?!?! That’s a pretty obvious reason to tell someone what your name is.

            ” mean, this “Hi my name is Bill”, “you look nice today” guy sounds like a pretty vanilla nobody.”

            No, he sounds like a normal guy who knows how to start a conversation. I’d respond to Bill.

            “I’m pretty sure no romantic male lead in a movie ever opened with that, and I’m pretty sure every nerd in every movie who walks up to a girl who promptly rejects him says something just like that.”

            Well, there’s your issue. You believe movies are reality. Sad.

            ” In middle to high school it seems like the bad boys get all the girls.”
            Are you still in high school?

            Buddy, if you’re getting “friend zoned” (idiotic concept), its not because you’re not leading with aggressive compliments. It’s evidence of your other numerous flaws.

          • Jennifer Starr

            feel like if you’re interested in a woman, you have to lead with some meaningful compliment or you’re sort of just faking an introduction of yourself for no obvious reason.

            Speaking as a woman, any man who introduces himself to me with something crude like ‘nice t*ts’ or some cheap pick-up line is not going to make a good impression. If you can’t start off a conversation like a normal human being you’re not going to get very far. Incidentally, life is not a movie, and it’s also not ‘Leisure Suit Larry’.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why do you think we need to elevate a man’s ability to make sure he can tell a woman she has given him a boner over a woman’s right to go through her day without unwanted sexual comments?

            “And what does a guy do if he just wants to compliment a hot woman on her looks but isn’t interested in dating or sleeping with her?”

            He can just STFU and keep it to himself. I can’t believe you think this is a problem- oh the POOR MENZ must be allowed to tell women that they like their tits, even if it makes the women uncomfortable.

            Why does a man HAVE to express his appreciation? Why? What does he gain by telling a random woman that he thinks she’s hot? Why can’t he just keep it to himself?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What does a guy do if he sees a hot female stranger in passing that he’s interested in dating or sleeping with?

            If he possesses even half a brain, he does what I do when I see a hot male stranger in passing–keep it to myself and keep my mouth shut.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “that is much more complimentary, and the group of construction workers is NOT seriously asking the woman for group sex or any sex. They’re at work. None of them think they are going home with that woman. It’s an expression of appreciation. It’s playful teasing. It’s a totally different scenario – at least to my mind. Am I wrong?”

            Yes, you are very, very, very wrong. It is not a compliment when some random man informs me that he is observing me sexually and thinking about having sex with me. By informing me that he’s observing me in a sexual manner, while knowing that he has no chance of sleeping with me because I DO NOT WANT IT (which you admit in your premise), he is knowingly making me uncomfortable. A strange man has no right or business teasing me. Why the fuck does a stranger on the street think he has the right to tease me? The right to discuss my body with me? That’s not playful. That’s not fun. Who does this random man on the street think he is to believe that I would be flattered by his “compliment”? He is informing me that he is aroused by me because HE wants to, not because he thinks that knowledge will benefit me in any way. I don’t care if I give you a boner when I walk by. I can’t stop him from observing me and liking what he sees, but when he informs me that he is thinking about having sex with me, it becomes harassment/ threatening because it is NOT wanted.

          • Bill Contrary

            Do you have a right to tell abortion protesters that they are awful people? Surely – that statement would make them mad and uncomfortable. Do you have a right to mock their religion and ethics? Do you have a right to call them ugly? You know you have no chance of dissuading them, you are simply intentionally making them uncomfortable. How is this different? There is no right to never be uncomfortable. There is a right to speech in America, including speech which may cause discomfort. If it goes from speech to harassment – than it’s wrong. But if it’s just spontaneous speech, people have a right to make spontaneous declarations. If it’s a whistle or catcall it’s spontaneous. If someone is stalking you, following you around doing that, etc. – than it’s a problem. Why is this such a difficult concept?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You might want to watch who you make these ‘spontaneous declarations’ to–unless you really do enjoy carrying your teeth around in a paper bag.

          • fiona64

            Ever notice how those “spontaneous declarations” are never made when the woman is accompanied by a man?

          • Bill Contrary

            Is that a great mystery of human nature? The explanation seems rather obvious: catcallers are probably afraid the man and woman are in a relationship and he’ll beat them up for expressing interest in his girl.

          • fiona64

            Let me say that I will give you half a point for this: catcallers are probably afraid the man and woman are in a relationship
            and he’ll beat them up for expressing interest in his girl.

            It’s not “expressing interest” to catcall a woman; it’s RUDE. And what catcallers are *really* afraid of is paying the consequences for their rudeness. THAT is why they target solitary women. It’s not about “expressing interest”: it’s about intimidation. Period.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes. Because they respect the man’a right to parade around town without other guys hitting on his girlfriend, but not the woman’s right to be free of his “advances”

          • Bill Contrary

            I don’t make catcalls. But I must say I’m now tempted to for curiosity’s sake to see if women react as you would predict or not. Arguably the only way for me to really know if you feminists are right that most women don’t like it or wrong is to actually empirically test it – so the more we argue the more I’m considering becoming a catcaller to test your assertions. Obviously Lewak likes catcalling, and she cannot be an island of 1. I do wonder what the true proportions of those who like it versus those who don’t are.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t make catcalls. But I must say I’m now tempted to for curiosity’s sake to see if women react as you would predict or not.

            Try and test it with me and you better have that paper bag ready. I’ll show you where ‘spontaneous’ will get you.

          • Bill Contrary

            Do you have a right to tell abortion protesters that they are awful people? Surely – that statement would make them mad and uncomfortable. Do you have a right to mock their religion and ethics? Do you have a right to call them ugly? You know you have no chance of dissuading them, you are simply intentionally making them uncomfortable. How is this different? There is no right to never be uncomfortable. There is a right to speech in America, including speech which may cause discomfort. If it goes from speech to harassment – than it’s wrong. But if it’s just spontaneous speech, people have a right to make spontaneous declarations. If it’s a whistle or catcall it’s spontaneous. If someone is stalking you, following you around doing that, etc. – than it’s a problem. Why is this such a difficult concept?

            Girls are some of the biggest teasers in the world when they are young. My older autistic brother was relentlessly mocked & teased by a girl in his grade. Technically that was pervasive and would be bullying or harassment, but I guarantee you no adult would care about something like that and the claim would probably be perceived as laughable that a girl could bully a guy. Yet she did. I remember 3 older girls pulling down my pants in a little stone enclosure in a forested area of a playground when my parents were on the other side of the park I when I was a young kid – an experience which may or may not have something to do with my shyness even today in talking to girls I have a crush on. Not rape – but I’m not sure what it was. Humiliating as a young boy. It may or may not be the reason my personality shifted from outgoing & talkative to introverted & silent, something my mother to this day does not understand. But who cares? My point is: There’s a lot of bullying and harassment in the world, almost all of it worse than adult women getting a catcall from a stranger. Perhaps we should worry about that instead of the momentary discomfort you might experience if some one whistles at you or makes an off-the-cuff sexual comment. You are an adult – tell them off if you don’t like it and move on with your life. Get a tougher skin or something – a stranger you’ll never meet again simply saying something you don’t like to you is penny ante stuff and I’m sick of the whining about it. Other people have a right to speak their mind.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Do you have a right to tell abortion protesters that they are awful people? Surely – that statement would make them mad and uncomfortable. Do you have a right to mock their religion and ethics? Do you have a right to call them ugly? You know you have no chance of dissuading them, you are simply intentionally making them uncomfortable. How is this different? There is no right to never be uncomfortable. There is a right to speech in America, including speech which may cause discomfort. If it goes from speech to harassment – than it’s wrong. But if it’s just spontaneous speech, people have a right to make spontaneous declarations. If it’s a whistle or catcall it’s spontaneous. If someone is stalking you, following you around doing that, etc. – than it’s a problem. Why is this such a difficult concept?”

            WOW. So I went from telling you WHY a catcall is NOT a compliment, and you respond with this stupid drivel about free speech? I repeat, you moron: free speech rights refer to the GOVERNMENT not being able to prohibit your speech. Not private citizens. No one here is talking about the GOVERNMENT BANNING CATCALLS.

            Further, by comparing catcalls to people engaging in back-and forth insults with abortion protestors, you are admitting that catcalls are inherently antagonistic, and NOT consensual or pleasant, wellmeant interactions as you first posited.

            “There’s a lot of bullying and harassment in the world, almost all of it worse than adult women getting a catcall from a stranger. Perhaps we should worry about that instead of the momentary discomfort you might experience if some one whistles at you or makes an off-the-cuff sexual comment. You are an adult – tell them off if you don’t like it and move on with your life.”

            Dude, as I’ve said to you about FOUR times now, JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT THINK IT’S THE BUGGEST PROBLEM DOESN’T MEAN IT’S NOT A PROBLEM. I have the RIGHT to go through my day without being sexually harassed. You don’t experience harassment- it is not YOUR RIGHT to tell me what should or should NOT bother me. Further, I will not CONFRONT a person who is larger than me and does not respect my person, out of concern for my own safety.

            “Get a tougher skin or something – a stranger you’ll never meet again simply saying something you don’t like to you is penny ante stuff and I’m sick of the whining about it.”
            Women do not need to get a thicker skin to deal with sexual harassment from men. Men need to stop sexually harassing women. For fucks sake, what is WRONG with you??? You realize what you’re saying, right? That women just need to bend over and take sexual harassment from strange men? It’s not simply someone “saying something I don’t like’- that’s what happens when republicans speak. This is targeted sexual harassment OF ME. That’s personal. God, you’re sick of hearing about it? No one asked for your shitty opinion. No one cares what you think. If you’re sick of hearing the whining about it, then get the fuck out of here.

          • fiona64

            There’s a lot of bullying and harassment in the world, almost all of
            it worse than adult women getting a catcall from a stranger.

            Once again, you do NOT get to decide what other people feel.

            I’m sick of the whining about it. Other people have a right to speak their mind.

            is the government hauling you away for speaking your mind? No? Well, congratulations. Free speech is still intact.

            As has already been pointed out, your right to free speech is not free of consequences. Other people get to respond. In this case, it means that other people are calling you out on your bullshit.

            Oh, and if you’re sick of the whining? Stop whining. That’s all you’ve been doing: whining about how your poor widdle feewings are too delicate to approach a woman as though she’s an actual human being who might have the right to decline your advances and how women, OTOH, should all “man up” and be okay with jerks shrieking things at them on the street because Men Can’t Handle Rejection.

            How about you grow a set and learn how to actually talk to women instead of insisting that we should be flattered by some asshat yelling “nice tits”?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Given that most of the whining here is being done by you, I fail to see any actual point to your idiotic statement.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Furthermore, I would suggest that in the future you keep your ‘spontaneity’ to yourself. I can assure you that no one finds that behavior attractive.

          • Bill Contrary

            But some women do. That was what the whole Lewak piece was about: how she enjoyed being catcalled. You have heard the phrase “Speak for yourself?” Note the phrase is not “Speak for everyone”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, the phrase in your case would be fuck off.

          • fiona64

            “Speak for everyone”.

            You mean, the way you do when you insist that, despite what all of the women here are telling you, that cat-calling is a “compliment”?

            You keep trying to make Lewak’s personal opinion “speak for everyone,” and we are telling you that YOU ARE WRONG.

          • Jennifer Starr

            an experience which may or may not have something to do with my shyness even today in talking to girls I have a crush on.

            Your shyness around women is not our problem. Don’t make it our problem.

          • fiona64

            I have all the knowledge I need with regard to your ass, buddy. You’re showing it here.

            Take your MRAsshole nonsense back to Paul Elam’s website, where it’s viewed as profound. Otherwise, go color while the adults talk.

          • Bill Contrary

            I don’t know who that is – but I’ll check it out.

          • fiona64

            And away went the point, over Bill’s head, yet again.

            Quelle surprise.

    • Kelly S

      ” but I like to think if I could and did it would be taken as a compliment (or should be).” Congrats, you’re part of the problem. No, there are not different motives. No one is stupid enough to think they will meet a lovely lady that way. Pro-tip: It is the opposite of positive, and if you don’t know that, get your shit straight before you try navigating society. So, how about fuck your “compliment.” You’re as shitty as the catcallers.

      • Bill Contrary

        I didn’t say a catcaller expects to “meet” a lovely lady that way. They are merely expressing their appreciation of a woman that way. Do you think the stereotypical group of construction workers thinks the woman is going to give them their number? I doubt it. At any rate, you are arrogant with your “pro-tips” and have little to offer intellectually beside name-calling. Where are the smart feminists?

        • Arekushieru

          Wow, tone-trolling. Also, that WAS the point she was making about catcallers, y’know. That they AREN’T looking for dates. They’re simply looking to police women’s bodies. Essentially, you’re saying that women who AREN’T catcalled should be ashamed of their bodies because they’re NOT getting attention, meaning they’re just not attractive enough to garner attention. The fact that you say women SHOULD enjoy this argues FOR my earlier implication that men are just being arbiters of a woman’s appearance, that is being able to decide which women is ugly or beautiful. Since there is a whole industry built UP around what constitutes beauty for women, ESPECIALLY, that is actively GENERATED by the patriarchy, your attempts to engage in it, are in fact further PROOF, not denial, of your misogyny.

          • Bill Contrary

            I didn’t say anything about women who aren’t cat-called. If I’m “tone-trolling” than you are “putting words in my mouth”. I’m also not saying that women -should- enjoy it – women are certainly free to enjoy it or not. But clearly some women do enjoy it – and they’re not wrong because you don’t like that fact. How does the “patriarchy” have anything to do with “beauty for women”? To my knowledge, there are hundreds of women’s mags whose primary audience is women, whose primary authorship is women who decide all these things and fashion the beauty standards. I never made any girlfriend wear makeup, wear high heels, go to the gym, or any of that nonsense. Take some responsibility.

          • fiona64

            Take some responsibility.

            How is any woman, anywhere, responsible for men acting like jerks? And yes, you’re acting like a jerk when you a) cat-call, b) insist that cat-calls are compliments, and c) condone cat-calling.

          • Bill Contrary

            It looks like all my comments are getting deleted – so probably little point in my responding. I don’t recall saying women were responsible for men acting like jerks – I said that women, not the “patriachy” were responsible for the unrealistic standards of beauty that you were complaining about.

          • fiona64

            No, that’s not what you said at all. And you know it.

            The only one who brought up standards of beauty at *all* was use, Billy-boy. And you tried to use them as an *excuse* for your piggish behavior.

            You may want to read “The Beauty Myth,” by Naomi Wolf. It points out just how very *wrong* you are to presume that those “standards of beauty” you cited were determined by anyone *but* men. Those standards are just one more way that men try to keep women “in our places.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beauty_Myth

            I know, facts are hard.

            Now, go color while the adults talk.

          • Bill Contrary

            Just browsing this link on Naomi Wolf it leads with the statement that as female power rose, eating disorders and cosmetic surgery rose exponentially. I would call that a “correlation” with rising female power and an “inverse relation” with male power. i.e., As female power rises -> women get nuttier with their beauty standards. It seems she doesn’t understand statistics, because her finding suggests to me that male power was the only thing keeping women from doing crazy things to themselves in the name of beauty. You did read this book, right?

          • fiona64

            You keep telling yourself that, Billy-boy. I’m sure it gives you great comfort.

            You claim to enjoy reading (although I suspect that when you devour a book, you actually eat the pages). Go get the book from your library (you know, the big building full of books) and read the whole thing instead of just the Wikipedia article. I know, it’ll be hard … you’ll have to think of women as actual people and all. But I’m confident that you’ll manage.

            PS: “Therese Raquin” is a better book than “Nana,” IMO. I think you’ll recognize yourself in it.

          • Bill Contrary

            Obviously I need time to read a book. Hence why I looked at wikipedia and commented on its summary. I’m not opposed to reading feminist authors, just haven’t had the occassion or inclination. The closest thing I’ve read to Feminist authors is probably Camille Paglia or Madeleine L’engle. The former is probably not mainstream feminism and the latter is fiction. I probably should read Steinem or Wolf but you know – life is short and there’s a lot to read. I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine in what way *I*, as a male, contributed to unnatural beauty standards for women. Is it because I once bought a Playboy back in the 90s with Sherilyn Fenn in it? I’m struggling here, help me out. Am *I* part of the patriarchy? Is my Dad? What male that I know is responsible for YOUR beauty standards? Am I responsible for something your Dad said or taught you? I don’t understand who the “Patriarchy” is in this context or what my relation is to that.

          • fiona64

            You continue to reveal yourself as both a misogynist and a dishonest interlocutor.

            Life is, as you point out, short. It is, in fact, too short to give you any further attention, loser.

          • fiona64

            PS: I’m not Arekushieru (whom you quoted). Learn to read, mkay?

            Or are all women interchangeable to you, especially if they call you out on your crap?

          • cjvg

            And that relates to the subject of men like you who think they can and should dictate that all women must appreciate their unsolicited catcalling how? You just had to find someway to blame women for something, didn’t you!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I occasonally get deleted here when I have been an anus. And I am a regular here.
            You got deleted because you have made crude unacceptable remarks. You did not get deleted for disagreement.
            Whining is so unattractive. Man up.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well obviously I cannot see a remark that has been deleted, so I can only speculate at the rationale for deletion. When I saw a LOT of my posts deleted, I assumed I was being targeted for disagreeing. It’s difficult to discuss catcalls (which are inherently crude remarks that you feminists find unacceptable) without wandering into “crude unacceptable remark” territory as it is defined here. My apologies.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think you’re a moron, but I haven’t flagged you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Girls? Eat shit and die, Piscialetto.

          • Bill Contrary

            Girls is not a derogatory term in my book. But from the number of times I’ve been called “boy” here, I’m pretty sure Boy is a derogatory term in your eyes. When I’m speaking to groups of females, I colloquially may refer to them as “women”, “girls”, or a gender neutral “guys” and I mean all 3 with equal dignity. Girls I view as the most affectionate, Guys I view as the most colloquial.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bite me, Stronzo.

          • fiona64

            Just more gaslighting from him; girls can be ignored. Women cannot.

            Sucks to be him, because he’s not getting away with it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Want some cheese with your whine?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You are being “targeted” for being a misogynistic a**hole.

          • cjvg

            Those manly men deserve their fun even if it is over the back of women circles you mean?
            Yeah I’m sure those would approve, after all they also think rape is just lying bitches not liking the sex they had

          • Bill Contrary

            If you don’t like what someone on the street says to you – tell them. Stand up to them. THAT is responsibility. Obsessing about it on blogs or message boards after the fact and arguing with people who didn’t cat call at you IS misdirected energy. Man up. That’s what I meant.

          • fiona64

            If you don’t like what someone on the street says to you – tell them. Stand up to them.

            I am calling YOU out right now. I am standing up to YOU right now. YOU are supporting sexual harassment and rape culture. YOU man up and own your misogyny, instead of trying to gaslight the women who are pointing it out.

          • Bill Contrary

            You’re calling me out but I didn’t do any catcalls to you or anyone else (well maybe the joke one I did on here). You’re arguing the ethics of catcalls with me. That’s all. Even if you “defeat” me in argument here – it means nothing. You didn’t stand up to or chastise one single catcaller, and the people who do that will never read this. I’m enjoying our argument, but it’s not *doing* anything about catcalls.

          • fiona64

            Do NOT try to deflect the fact that YOU support sexual harassment and rape culture. This is about YOU and YOUR behavior, right here and right now.

          • cjvg

            You are feverously defending that men should have the right to catcall any women they choose. Moreover you are also vigorously defending the opinion that women should accept this behavior and see it as a “compliment”
            On top of that you are then stating as fact that women who do not appreciate catcalling are aberrations, ugly and jealous and their opinions are not valid

            You are certainly doing your part to support all catcallers in their manly right to have fun by harassing unwilling women and girls

          • Unicorn Farm

            You defend and support people who catcall. You are a part of the problem. And yes, someone might be reading this whose mind might be changed. Someone else may be reading this who will employ the arguments we are using here in her life to deal with a****** like you.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Stand up to them? You think I should risk my safety by confronting a man who OBVIOUSLY doesn’t respect women, is much larger and stronger than I am, and has just made his sexual interest in me known? Yeah, right. You think it’s my “responsibility” to start engaging in confrontation with large men who don’t respect me? What the fuck is the matter with you? It’s not my responsibility to teach men ANYTHING- its MEN’S responsibility to treat women with respect. And it is certainly not my responsibility to put myself in harm’s way by confronting sexist pigs on the street.
            “Man up.”
            Go f* yourself.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well if you find something intolerable, you should try to do something about it. Call the police. Get a friend to confront them. Complain to their employer or something. Complain to the property owner where these people hang out? Do I have to do the thinking for you? I’m sure you can think of ideas.

          • fiona64

            Here’s what you don’t get: these idiots whom you support? They don’t do it to women who are with a friend, and most especially not if that friend is male. They target women who are *alone.*

            And no solitary female in her right mind is going to confront aggressive apes like the ones you are supporting here … because it is DANGEROUS.

            The best thing to do is to ignore the asshats and hope that they don’t get uglier, like the guy I talked about earlier in this thread did with me.

            We ARE trying to do something about it. For example, we’re trying to educate one dumbfuck here on the internet about why his ideas are bad.

            Do I have to do the thinking for you?

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not her job to do something. It’s their job to cease their inappropriate behavior.

          • fiona64

            I’m sure you can think of ideas.

            I have an idea! How about, the next time one of your asshat buddies catcalls a woman, you tell him that it’s rude rather than yukking it up like the idiot yokel your remarks make you out to be?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You are so fucking stupid it hurts. I have a job to get to. Not time to sit around waiting for cops or friends to show up and confront harassers. Besides. You’ve moved the fucking goal posts, again. First you said “stand up to them” and I explained why confronting harassers isn’t feasible. Rather than admitting that you were deeply wrong, you start talking about other “ways” to address the issue and insult me for purportedly not employing them. You are way out of your depth here. Don’t you have a blow up doll to go screw?

          • goatini

            It never mattered whether I walked down a different street when I was going to school. Adult males did the same thing. I was a child. What was I supposed to “do”? It started for me in the early 1960s. It’s only since the invention of the smartphone that local police forces even DO anything about unwanted public sexual harassment.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Also, why the fuck should women have to go to all these lengths to avoid shitty men. Why do women have to teach men to be better people? Why do you have such a low opinion of men?

          • cjvg

            But in no circumstance should men actually have to take responsibility for their actions and just simply stop screaming at complete strangers just because they happen to be women. No that would be way to demanding and stressful for men.

          • cjvg

            Did you even read the incidents I posted? At what point did those girls and women even have the time or opportunity to call the cops? Victim blaming, very nice does your girlfriend says that is ok too?!

          • cjvg

            Sure, and when that escalates and the woman gets hurt it is her fault for not behaving right.
            This is what happens if you stand up and say no, sometimes it happens when you ignore it

            How about this 14 year old who said no to; “s*ck my d*ck”, that got her grabbed choked, and run over by a car several times. She did live so I guess he did not mean it right?
            http://www.ocalapost.com/adrian-mendez-kidnapped-14-year-old-girl/

            http://ausetkmt.tumblr.com/post/67447823898/in-san-francisco-last-year-a-man-stabbed-a-woman

            Francisco last year, a man stabbed a woman in the face and arm after she didn’t respond positively to his sexually harassing her on the street.

            In Bradenton, Fla., a man shot a high school senior to death after she and her friends refused to perform oral sex at his request.

            In Chicago, a scared 15-year-old was hit by a car and died after she tried escaping from harassers on a bus.

            Again, in Chicago, a man grabbed a 19-year-old walking on a public thoroughfare, pulled her onto a gangway and assaulted her.

            In Savannah, Georgia, a woman was walking alone at night and three men approached her. She ignored them, but they pushed her to the ground and sexually assaulted her.

            In Manhattan, a 29-year-old pregnant woman was killed when men catcalling from a van drove onto the sidewalk and hit her and her friend.

            Last week, a runner in California — a woman — was stopped and asked, by a strange man in a car, if she wanted a ride. When she declined he ran her over twice.

            The man made an indecent request that the woman refused, He then raped her before he walked away http://www.cp24.com/news/police-alert-public-after-sexual-assault-in-malvern-1.1863685#ixzz3BBqPh3zk

            Teen girl attacked after rebuffing catcaller
            http://feministing.com/2008/05/27/teen_girl_attacked_after_rebuf_1/

            Harmless fun and women should just enjoy these “compliments” because that is what you ( a man) says

    • fiona64

      I like to think if I could and did it would be taken as a compliment

      Congratulations on being part of the problem.

      I’ll bet a shiny new nickel that you would totally lose your shit if a gay man yelled “Nice ass” at you from a car, wouldn’t you?

      • Bill Contrary

        “Lose my shit”? Not sure what you mean. I might turn red in embarassment, but that’s about it. I did have a situation where I introduced my girlfriend to a gay friend and he suddenly started getting rude to her and very touchy and possessive with me. My girlfriend was not pleased. I thought it was funny.

        • Arekushieru

          Hmm, you thought it was funny that a gay friend insulted and was very rude towards her, but got touchy and possessive with you? Not only was your gay friend MALE, but you didn’t object to the way your MALE friend shamed and demeaned your girlfriend. The opposite of catcalling, btw. Oops. Proved our point, yet, AGAIN.

          • Bill Contrary

            I thought the situation was funny – that the gay friend was jealous and possessive. Wow – overthinking it much?

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, yeah, the situation was funny but not one piece of evidence that you were concerned about how your girlfriend felt about it. Wow. UNDERthinking, too much?

          • fiona64

            That’s because it doesn’t matter what *women* think about how they’re treated, it only matters what Billy-boy thinks.

          • Bill Contrary

            I don’t have an objective perspective on it, so I can’t say whether I acted appropriately concerned for my girlfriend or not. She did ask to leave – we left, she expressed her feelings to me, I listened. I probably was not the ideal super-sensitive guy, but I also don’t think my girlfriend is a fragile flower that’s going to wilt from a little adversity either.

          • Arekushieru

            And showing some concern for your girlfriend at the time the incident occurred is treating her like a fragile flower that’s going to wilt from a little adversity, HOW???

          • Bill Contrary

            I showed some concern. It was not a “traumatic” incident. Thank you for your interest.

          • fiona64

            It clearly bothered your Inflate-a-Date enough that she asked to leave. You don’t get to decide what other people feel.

          • Bill Contrary

            I am just smart enough to understand that there is no correct answer or response here. I try to be sympathetic to my girlfriend and sometimes do a better job at it than others. She also sometimes overreacts emotionally to things and needs tough love. (I know that will draw the ire, but it’s true). I actually was inspired by a Feminist column the other day about men being defensive when they do something wrong and minimizing their female partner’s anger/concerns. So, when I was late picking up my girlfriend one day last week, I recognized that this was a weakness of mine, so I made a point to not minimize her anger but instead admitted my mistake and acknowledged how she must feel and I made it up to her by taking her to her favorite restaraunt for dinner. I guess not all Feminist columns are bunk – that one spoke to me.

          • fiona64

            Gosh! Who would have predicted, based on your behavior here, that your typical behavior (as you call it, your “usual”) is to diminish the feelings of women?

            Color me just shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you!

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wow. You needed to read a whole article about how to apologize and take responsibility for your own failures? This is something most of us learn when we are about three years old. Wow. Jesus wept on the cross. I am floored. Well, I guess I would be floored if you weren’t all over this thread asserting your right to be a jerk to women and purposefully telling them they should bend over and take it and their feelings are not valid. Wow.

            Also, and unsurprisingly, you sound like a horrible boyfriend if you “usually” diminish your partner’s feelings.

          • Arekushieru

            But all you could talk about was YOUR feelings, not hers. Wow.

          • fiona64

            You noticed that, too, eh?

          • Bill Contrary

            LOL you guys are persistent – I’ll give you that. She was upset that I was late and she was made to wait. That was her feeling. Not a big mystery.

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, you have difficulty dealing with the actual TOPIC don’t you? And you never ONCE mentioned her feelings. It was all about YOUR feelings, which is the way the general discussion with you has gone, here, which WAS my effing point. Oh, btw, I have never had a boyfriend. Never had sex.

          • cjvg

            Merely upsetting enough she wanted to leave. I understand I don’t care about my loved ones being upset either if it does not raise to the level of trauma! (not)

    • cjvg

      Thank you so much for telling me how appreciative I must be for your uncalled for , unwanted and clearly obnoxious public shouting about my hotness or notness according to your infallible personal opinion.

      Your opinion that women must accept your catcalling as something that is your manly right, a right that can not be refused by women is exceedingly arrogant.
      The majority of women clearly does not enjoy catcalling and has been very verbal about this. You have no idea if the woman you are about the catcall will enjoy it or will find it threatening an obnoxious, yet somehow you still think you are entitled to catcall her and are even invalidating her feelings about this. Just because you found the opinion of one woman who welcomes and enjoys catcalling that does not give you the right t dictate to other women that they must do so too! You are the posterchild of male privilege

      Someone who deliberately and willfully continues to repeat behavior that he has been told is seen as unwanted by the majority of women and is unsolicited by ALL women, is most definitely NOT a good guy! The fact that you have the audacity to dismiss as irrelevant the negative view most women have on this subject is disturbing to say the least. Unless you are sure hat a woman welcome catcalling please refrain.

      • Bill Contrary

        As I said in one of my posts – I don’t do catcalls in real life. I did do a “pseudo-catcall” here to Amanda Marcotte – (“Marcotte – you so HOT – SMOKIN’ baby!”) just to be provocative and explore what was so offensive about that. (She IS hot FWIW). I just don’t like you all jumping on Newak who apparently does enjoy catcalls. Surely simple catcalls are harmless fun, and unless they spill over into harassment I really can’t see the problem. There is the right to free speech (unless you are against that).

        • fiona64

          Surely simple catcalls are harmless fun

          Not for the women. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?

          There is the right to free speech (unless you are against that).

          Yep, you’re right. However, free speech is not free of consequences. For example, I am using my free speech to tell you that you are a misogynist POS. Hey, it’s harmless fun, right?

          • Bill Contrary

            And I will choose to use my free speech NOT to insult you.

          • fiona64

            MRA = men’s rights activist, as you’ve been told. And you are obviously an MRA.

            You are also demonstrably a misogynist POS. Truth is an absolute defense against accusations of slander.

          • Bill Contrary

            I think I said before in a post that may have been deleted that MRA really means Magnetic Resonance Angiography, and has for decades. You should at least get an acronym that isn’t already taken. Maybe if you women had had some male input you could have picked a more unique acronym. I could make suggestions if you want. As for the name-calling: “sticks and stones”, Fiona. Being called a misogynist or POS for disagreeing with you is not going to make me melt.

          • fiona64

            Um, dummy? As I already said, you can take it up with Paul Elam and the rest of your cabal. They’re the ones who picked the acronym.

            Being called a misogynist or POS for disagreeing with you is not going to make me melt.

            Casse-toi. I am only attracted to men.

          • Bill Contrary

            I don’t know Paul Elam or belong to any cabal. Sorry to disappoint you. I also don’t speak French and don’t quite understand why you keep lapsing into it. Are you French? I love classic French literature.

          • fiona64

            My husband and son are laughing at you.

          • Bill Contrary

            Misogynists do marry and have children you know. Your having a husband and son settles nothing. The “most popular guy at work” in my example is now married with a son. His misognyist behavior with my girlfriend was a good 5 years ago. I’m not going to laugh at your assumption, but I could.

          • fiona64

            No, sweetie. I know a misogynist when I run across one. In fact, I’m typing to one right now: you. And there’s only one bully here: you.

            I know. Facts are hard. You just don’t like being called out on your bullshit by a mere woman, amiright?

            My husband and son are both feminists.

            PS: An Inflate-a-Date is not a girlfriend.

          • Bill Contrary

            Catcalling really isn’t that bad. Do your husband and son agree with you that construction workers whistling at a woman is the worst thing ever?

          • fiona64

            Thanks for proving once again that you are a dishonest interlocutor.

            Sexual harassment is wrong. Period. And cat-calling is sexual harassment. You’ve been told that repeatedly, but you continue to insist that it’s no big deal.

            You are not subjected to it day in and day out. You have no goddamned idea. And when women try to enlighten you, you just wave your stupid, misogynistic paw and say “Look at this chick; she thinks it’s fine. What’s wrong? Can’t you handle it?”

            And yes, you have said all of those things. Because. You. Are. A. Misogynist.

            *You* brought my family into this, by saying I was “probably dating a misogynist.” So, you can take that little, disingenous “who brought them into this” and shove it.

            Oh, and I was mean to you? Boo-fucking-hoo. You support sexual harassment, which is part and parcel of rape culture. Pardon me for not giving a damn if I hurt your poor widdle feewings by calling you out.

            I will not respond to you again, so STFU. Go play with your Inflate-a-Date. Maybe it can teach you how to whistle, so you can try your clever dating techniques out on the street. Loser.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Forgive me for a being a little mean here – you were very mean to me, and it kind of feels good to vent a little”
            Please seek help for the fact that you “feel good” when you harass women. Thanks.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Are you really this idiotic? I mean, really?

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Misogynists do marry and have children you know.”

            Of course. Even you purport to have a girlfriend.

            “Now I’m not really suggesting that your husband is or was a misogynist – I’m sure he’s a great guy – but I do think it’s important to understand – you’d probably never find out about it if he was.”
            Quit gaslighting, and GTFO.

          • fiona64

            Quit gaslighting,

            Thanks for calling this out. That’s *exactly* what he’s doing with his “there’s something wrong with you if you don’t like cat-calls” and other assorted nonsense. And it’s classic abuser behavior.

          • cjvg

            Ah, resorting to unwarranted unproven and completely spacious personal attacks. I guess you are running out of because I say so’s

          • cjvg

            We can all read a dictionary and use google

            MRA-Men’s Rights Agency

            MRA-Men’s Rights Activist

            MRA-Mutual Recognition Arrangement

            MRA-Mutual Recognition Agreement

            MRA-Multiple Regression Analysis

            MRA-Multi-Resolution Analysis

            MRA-Migration and Refugee Assistance

            MRA-Minimum Reception Altitude

            MRA-Material Return Authorization

            MRA-Mail Retrieval Agent (internet email)

            MRA-Master Residential Appraiser

            MRA-Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft

            MRA-Munitions Response Area (US DoD)

            MRA-Masters Rowing Association

            MRA-Mutant Registration Act (X-Men)

            MRA-Malaysia Retailers Association

            MRA-Mutual Responsibility Agreement

            MRA-Miniature Radar Altimeter

            MRA-Material Receipt Acknowledgement (US DoD)

            MRA-Mutually Restricted Access

            MRA-Maximum Reimbursement Allowed (funding cap)

            MRA-Military Research Associate(s)

            MRA-Mission Readiness Airlift

            MRA-Manual of Regulatory Audits

            MRA-Matter Requiring Attention

            MRA-Message Release Authority

            MRA-Maximum Repair Allowance

            MRA-Multiple Relationship Analysis

            MRA-Mean Acoustic Response Axis

            MRA-Mean Reference Axis

            MRA-Machine Records Activity

            MRA-Maintenance and Repair Area

            MRA-Modernization Readiness Assessment

            MRA-Milestone Review and Approval

            MRA-Main/Maximum Response Axis

            MRA-Minimum Reserve Authorization

            MRA-Mission Ready & Available

            MRA-Message Review Authority

            MRA-Manufacturer’s Resale Agreement

            MRA-Module Reservoir Assembly (automotive fuel system)

            MRA-Minimal Reactance Antenna

            MRA-Mixture Reduction Algorithm

            MRA-Model Range of Accuracy

            MRA-Membrane Reflector Antenna

            MRA-Matrix-Rational Approximation Algorithm

            MRA-Metro Rating Area

            MRA-Michigan Retailers Association

            MRA-Moral Rearmament

            MRA-Mountain Rescue Association

            MRA-Moving Right Along

            MRA-Marketing Research Association

            MRA-Mental Retardation Authority

            MRA-Maneuver Rights Area

            MRA-Metal Roofing Alliance

            MRA-Master Repurchase Agreement

            MRA-Massachusetts Restaurant Association

            MRA-Magneto-Resistive Asymmetry (hard disk drives)

            MRA-Multi-Room Audio (amplifiers)

            MRA-Media Rights Agenda (Nigeria)

            MRA-Minimum Repayment Amount

            MRA-Malawi Revenue Authority

            MRA-Michigan Restaurant Association

            MRA-Minimum Retirement Age

            MRA-Mission Risk Assessment

            MRAMEFPAK (Manpower & Equipment Force Packaging) Responsible Agency (US Air Force)

            MRA-Market Rate Account (saving mechanism)

            MRA-Moderated Regression Analysis (economics)

            MRA-Market Research Analyst
            Context, not just for women anymore

        • cjvg

          No one jumps on Newak, if she likes catcalls good for her. However the fact that she likes them does not mean every other woman must like them to!

          This might have escaped your attention but women are actually separate human beings who all have different opinions and likes and dislikes. However it is interesting that you are so extremely selective in which woman’s opinion you are willing to champion over the opinions of the multitude of women who clearly do not like catcalling

          Why are you so willing to “respect” her need for catcalling but have a tremendous objections to all the women who clearly do NOT enjoy it and would not like to be subjected to it at a weekly or daily basis?!

          You have consistently and rudely ignored and belittled the opinions of all the women on this forum who have been very clear that they do not wish to be subjected to catcalling. All this with the pretext that you are “championing” the opinion of ONE woman who is not even on this forum as somehow better then the overwhelming majority of women who despise catcalling, very illogical and frankly quite hypocritical.!

          It seems you are only willing to “respect” a woman’s opinion if they coincide with what you think is acceptable! As for your catcalling of A. Marcotte, she and the rest of the women here are just doing what we usually do to obnoxious catcallers, ignore it. Since you are not in our physical presence you can not escalate your behavior so this is the most expedient response in this situation!

          • fiona64

            she and the rest of the women here are just doing what we usually do to
            obnoxious catcallers, ignore it. Since you are not in our physical
            presence you can not escalate your behavior so this is the most
            expedient response in this situation!

            Exactly.

          • Bill Contrary

            I was not aware that I ignored or belittled anyone’s opinions here. I merely took issue with people here for belittling Newak’s (another woman’s) opinions on catcalling. Nowhere did I say that other women were not in their rights to dislike it, and I made plain that I myself do not catcall in real life.

          • fiona64

            I was not aware that I ignored or belittled anyone’s opinions here

            Only with every post you’ve made, in which you tried to pretend that the reality of the street harassment (what you call “compliments”) that every woman faces on a daily basis is somehow okay because some men, apparently at least one of them calling himself Bill Contrary, have so few social skills that they have to ask a stranger on the internet how to approach a woman without screeching “nice tits” at her. Oh, and because one woman, somewhere, doesn’t mind street harassment.

            If catcalls really bother you – shout back at the people who do it that you don’t like catcalls or something.

            Frankly, with jerkwads like you who think this stuff is okay, it is safer for a woman to say NOTHING and keep walking.

            I made plain that I myself do not catcall in real life

            Only, as you put it, because you cannot “do the whistle.”

            Why take out your anger on someone who likes catcalls like Lewak?

            No one has said a goddamned word about her but YOU. We hold those responsible to blame, not the victims: the idiots who think that “nice ass” is a compliment and that they have a right to pronounce judgment on strangers as they pass rather than behaving with some actual manners are the ones at whom we are angry. Are you really so stupid that you cannot comprehend that?

          • Bill Contrary

            “No one has said a goddamned word about her but YOU.”

            Didn’t Marcotte write a whole column on Slate about her? Isn’t Lewak’s column what started Marcotte going off on this issue? I am unable to post on Slate – I’m not sure why. I made clear that I was posting here because I was not able to respond to the article on Slate.

          • fiona64

            Are we on Slate? No?

            Well, then, it looks like NO ONE has brought Lewak up but you.

            Just. Like. I. Said.

          • Bill Contrary

            “I made clear that I was posting here because I was not able to respond to the article on Slate.”

          • fiona64

            And no one gives a crap. This is NOT Slate. You are posting *here.*

          • Arekushieru

            Also, I am VERY sure Amanda did NOT bring up Lewak in order to suggest that we must denigrate any woman who purports to enjoy catcalling. She brought it up for the SAME reasons that we are giving him, HERE.

            Talk about points completely flying over someone’s HEAD.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Who gives a fuck?

          • cjvg

            Because dismissing the opinions of the majority of women that do not enjoy catcalling as irrelevant and wrongs is never belittling right.

            Claiming that women who find catcalling obnoxious and offensive and want it to stop are wrong because you read the opinion of ONE insecure woman who likes walking through construction zones with in provocative clothing to solicit sexual remarks to boosts her ego, not at all dismissive and arrogant.

            Frankly I don’t understand why you cling so tightly to your completely self serving and subjective opinion that catcalling must not be discouraged or frowned upon. Obviously the people most likely to encounter it (women) by en large do not share the opinion of the people almost exclusively perpetrating the offensive behavior(men) Strange is it not that you a man think catcalling is not a problem and must be cheerfully and lovingly accepted by women, regardless if she finds it uncomfortable or threating!

            No one suffers when men stop cat calling, least of all men. However a large majority of women will feel less harassed in public, how can you argue that that is a bad thing?

            it is remarkably that you claim to sincerely don’t understand why women don’t appreciate being regarded as sex objects and treated with no common courtesy by total strangers. Certainly if these cat callers merely admire physical perfection, why then are they never catcalling good looking men, or even women who are accompanied by a man? Obviously this is not merely expressing admiration or giving a compliment if that same women does not warrant an appreciative catcall when accompanied by a man! It is clearly intimidation and harassment of a woman, any woman who dares to go out alone!

            Most women don’t appreciate it and clearly indicate that it makes them feel disrespected and objectified for the amusement of complete strangers. Why do you think that sort of enjoyment is something men should have a right to inflict on women?

            Decent people and that includes many men, although it seems not you, refrain from taking an action that they think might be hurtful or unpleasant to another.
            If you are not sure if another person (and that includes women) is going to be negatively impacted by your actions, the default position is not to take it. If you don’t know that it wont be hurtful (and you have been informed multiple times that most women DO find it unpleasant), don’t do it. Isn’t that common decency?

            Men who continue to deliberately take enjoyment from actions that they have been made aware are unpleasant and unwanted by the majority of women, are narcissistic a$$holes. Claiming that it is alright because you once heard ONE woman say she enjoyed it is not nearly enough justification to subject all women to it (especially since you heard many many more women say they hate it, in fact there are hundreds and hundreds of stories online)

  • Bill Contrary

    Note that there’s also a strange disconnect between feminist thinking on “catcallers” and their thinking on BDSM. The former is horrible, and when women enjoy the catcall, like “Doree Lewak” there is something seriously wrong with them. But as to the latter – feminists like Marcotte want BDSM taugh in sex ed in school. Nevermind that BDSM often objectifies women as (consensual) slaves or property, and they are often subject to fetishized humiliation (with their consent). Now (presumably) Marcotte is perfectly fine with consensual objectification and humiliation in the practice of BDSM, but is overwrought if a woman enjoys a complementary catcall. It’s logical inconsistencies like these that award points to anti-feminism and make feminists look like they have serious blind spots.

    • fiona64

      There is no such thing as a “complimentary catcall.” Those “compliments” are demonstrative of males believing that women are public property on which they have the right to remark, for good or ill. It is the worst sort of objectification.

      BTW, there are male subs … far more of them than female. When one is *consenting,* one is in a position of power. When one is being “complimented,” as you call it, by a shrieking yahoo shouting “Nice rack” out of a car window, one is NOT.

      • Bill Contrary

        Obviously Doree Lewak disagrees with you. Clearly “nice rack” or “nice ass” or “you’re hot” are all complimentary catcalls. A remark is just speech. Speaking to someone does not imply a “property relation”. Usually we don’t require consent from others to speak their minds.

        • fiona64

          I can only surmise that you are being deliberately obtuse on all counts and are thus not an honest interlocutor.

          Good day, sir.

          • Bill Contrary

            Ahh piglet is such a nice term of endearment. Thank you, honeybee.

          • cjvg

            And why must a woman be subjected to such if she does no find that enjoyable? What gives you the right to decide that at every trip outside of her house a woman can be subjected to such and must enjoy it? Is it so hard for men not to harassing unwilling women!?

            It is obnoxious and unnecessary, clearly men are getting something out of this otherwise they would not do it, sine it is not dates, the only conclusion left is that it is meant to scare n demean women, and let them know who really is in charge here

          • fiona64

            You are behaving like an idiot at this point. Those are not compliments, as you have been told repeatedly, and only an absolute assh*le would think otherwise. Period.

        • Arekushieru

          Are you seriously this obtuse? Enjoyment does not equal consent. Lemme put it in simple terms so that even YOU cannot fail to understand: Just because a woman finds pleasure during a rape does that mean she wasn’t raped? No, the ONE thing that constitutes rape and therefore objectification of the woman is consent or, rather, lack thereof. It’s the same thing if you turn it around, so let me use another one of your OWN examples. If a woman DOES consent to an act in BDSM yet it immediately becomes objectification because you consider yourself the final arbiter of what constitutes objectification of women, AS a male you ARE engaging in objectification, namely controlling and policing what women do with THEIR bodies. To use my OWN example, you are saying that if a woman consents to sex but doesn’t find some part of it enjoyable (and I will remind you, not even the majority of people who have sexual relations find sex enjoyable all the time, every time), she was raped. To put that in reverse: If a woman unwillingly enjoys an act even during consensual sex, just because she enjoyed it she must have consented to it, by your OWN logic.

          • Bill Contrary

            A catcall is speech. You do realize that?. Even if it’s not at all complimentary and is entirely insulting – it’s still just speech. Do others have to have your “consent” before they can speak to you or about you?

      • Guest

        And let me just add that I think you’re view of catcalls is somewhat cynical. Going up to women that one finds attractive and giving them straightforward and honest compliments takes a degree of guts many men may not have. Have you considered that catcalls might also be a way that men can compliment women and express their interest in them under the guise of a ritual that does not require them to go face-to-face with the woman and face rejection?

        • fiona64

          And have you considered that only assholes think that yelling “Nice tits” at a stranger is a good way to meet women?

        • fiona64

          Oh, and PS to Bill? When you try to delete something it still shows up, as “guest.” You’re fooling no one.

          • Bill Contrary

            I tried to delete the post. Rather than actually delete, it stayed but reverted to “Guest”. It wasn’t an attempt to “fool” anyone about anything.

        • lady_black

          Exactly. It is RUDE, cowardly and childish. So don’t do it.

        • Arekushieru

          So, let’s recap, poor men’s widdle feewings must be protected. But if a woman feels uncomfortable or threatened that’s HER problem. Just keep proving that you are a MISOGYNIST.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I’m sorry that these ‘men’ apparently lack social skills and don’t comprehend the difference between appropriate and inappropriate interactions. But that’s not my problem, and it doesn’t make their behavior any less disgusting.

    • cjvg

      Dishonest comparison that does not hold water on even a rudimentary inspection.
      If a woman engages in BDSM she clearly gave consent and wanted to engage in such.

      A woman being catcalled was never asked if she would like it or if she was willing to give consent to being catcalled. Clearly you have a problem seeing women as human beings who have their own ideas, and would like to be the one in control of what on what they like and what they do not like being done to them

      • Bill Contrary

        A catcall is just speech. Get a grip.

        • Vanai

          Do you believe a person has any right, any justification, to be annoyed if they find themselves being yelled at by strangers in a work environment all/most days for something out of their control?

          If so, please try to extend that belief( or at least run a thought experiment) to the rights of women to be exasperated by, and to speak out forcefully against, the frequent barrage of shouts they must endure when they leave the house based on nothing but how their body is formed.

        • cjvg

          And why do you feel women must be subjected to it? It is just speech, get a grip it will not kill you NOT to yell at strange women who have no interested or need to hear your assessment of them!

          Why do you have this strange obsessive need to justify this unwanted and completely unnecessary behavior ?

          • Bill Contrary

            But aren’t you in effect, yelling at Lewak (a strange woman) who probably has no interest in your assessment of her?

          • cjvg

            Is lewak making catcalls at unwilling women? No, then obviously I’m not addressing her behavior!

          • fiona64

            Read this imbecile’s Disqus history: he’s a birther … which means he is a racist pig as well as being a misogynist.

          • cjvg

            I suspected as much. It is always the self proclaimed “good guys” you really have to watch out for

          • Bill Contrary

            The first video link doesn’t work. I tried. The second video link has some women talking about stalkers and some talking about catcallers but the thing is the women are all smiling and joking about it like they found it more funny than anything. If it’s a “big deal” or “traumatic” you can’t really tell that from a woman with a big smile on her face laughing as she simulates the cat noise. It seems like it is at most a mild annoyance and these women have some funny stories from it. The person most concerned about it seems to be the male interviewer who is asking leading questions and giving judgmental commentary. At any rate, as I have said – I don’t catcall. I really don’t see any catcalling in my city when I walk the streets – how big of a problem can this really be? Who’s doing it? Is it random male strangers? Is it a black male culture thing? My girlfriend says it’s rare and no big deal when it happens.

          • fiona64

            I really don’t see any catcalling in my city when I walk the streets – how big of a problem can this really be?

            That’s because, dummy, it isn’t happening to you. Your constant dismissal of something that women experience every damned day – sexual harassment on the streets – because you don’t happen to notice it does not render it non-existent. It is not a “black male culture” thing; it is a *rape culture* thing.

            Educate yourself: http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/about/what-is-street-harassment/

            BTW; you’ve committed Every. Single. Dismissive. Act. listed in the last paragraph of the landing page.

          • Bill Contrary

            How often do you experience cat-calling Fiona? My female girlfriend says it’s rare. Unless you are walking the docks of the local navy-yard, a sex worker, or perhaps a middle school teacher – how much cat-calling can you possibly be on the receiving end of? There are serious problems in the world. Women are being raped and kidnapped in Iraq in large numbers (Feminists wanted the US out of there so DUH) and you’re #firstworldproblem is that someone whistled at you as you walked by? It’s Free Speech. What is so hard to understand about that? I don’t care that don’t like the speech. As Richard Dawkins says – that something is “offensive” to you is not an argument. This is America – not Fascist New Amazonia.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What does your male girlfriend have to say about it?

          • Arekushieru

            I experience it DAILY, whenever I go for a walk. And I live in one of the most progressive cities in Canada, btw, Just because your girlfriend SAYS she doesn’t get catcalled doesn’t mean she isn’t, either because, with people like YOU surrounding her, she doesn’t KNOW that she is OR she doesn’t want to tell you about it because she knows she would just be shamed for it.

            Feminists wanted the US out of Iraq because it was ILLEGAL, not because it would have prevented women from being raped and kidnapped. In FACT, incidences of rape and kidnapping tend to go UP during war, NOT down. So, who’s a misogynist, here?

            JUST as, in another point you tried to make in order to refute me, when women’s power goes up, the patriarchal backlash ALSO tends to increase. Because that’s what tends to happen when one side that does not have power tries to gain back power from the side that DOES. And, no, the patriarchy is NOT men. The patriarchy is what BENEFITS men while it HARMS women. Unlike YOU who blames feminism on all women based on the action of ONE we do not blame patriarchy on all men based on the actions of a smaller portion of them, after all. If you have no idea how power systems, including patriarchy, work, please refrain from speaking on them in future.

            RAPE culture is what makes it permissible to rape and kidnap women in countries like Iraq. Objectification of women, such as by catcalling, contributes to RAPE culture. So, on the one hand you’re saying it’s acceptable and on the other you’re saying it’s not. Even if that weren’t the case, operating on the assumption that there is someone who’s worse off out there, so you shouldn’t speak against the problems in your own, is not only part of the reason WHY things are so bad in countries like Iraq, it doesn’t just target first world people. There are probably people who are worse of than the women in Iraq. So, basically, you are telling them that they can’t speak out because someone is worse off than THEM. Oops.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “My female girlfriend says it’s rare”

            How does this invalidate our experiences with it? Just because your girlfriend says its rare doesn’t mean that she knows what we have experienced.

            “are serious problems in the world. Women are being raped and kidnapped in Iraq in large numbers”

            As I, and numerous others, have explained to you, just because a problem isn’t the BIGGEST problem doesn’t mean that it’s not a problem. Plus, as has been explained to you, catcalling is just one piece of a larger puzzle of misogyny.

            ” It’s Free Speech. What is so hard to understand about that?”

            I do not think you understand the concept of “free speech.” Your speech is free to the extent that, unless certain conditions are met, the GOVERNMENT cannot restrict your right to speech. That is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to private citizens’ reaction to another private citizen’s speech. And besides, the right to “free speech” does not include the right to harass or threaten another. Good god, you’re an embarrassment.

            ” I don’t care that don’t like the speech”
            Yes, it’s very obvious that you are working very hard to defend your “right” to be a complete a**hole to women.

          • fiona64

            How often do you experience cat-calling Fiona?

            I’m going to pretend for just a moment that this is a serious question, and I’m going to answer you accordingly: every goddamned day. I experience it every goddamned day. I experience it getting out of my car to go to the store. I experience it on public transit. I experience it going about my regular routine. I experience it when I’m wearing jeans and a t-shirt, or a skirt and blouse. I experience it because I dare to be female in public.

            And your argument that “other women have it worse” holds no water with me. Neither does the opinion that you made up for your Inflate-a-Date.

          • goatini

            I experienced cat-calls, and worse, from the age of 11 on, living in a major American city where walking and public transport were the main modes of getting around. I was so young that I thought I’d somehow done something “wrong” to attract such hateful “attention”. This was in the early 1960s.

            And your “shut up and be grateful” BS is NOT appreciated.

          • goatini

            //Unless you are walking the docks of the local navy-yard, a sex worker, or perhaps a middle school teacher – how much cat-calling can you possibly be on the receiving end of?//

            I was an 11 year old child going to school. Which to you, evidently, is EXACTLY like being a sex worker.

          • fiona64

            Thank you. The first time it happened to me, I was a 12-year-old kid walking to the store for a bottle of soda pop. Apparently, that’s just like prostitution to this dimwit.

          • lady_black

            Yes, washing my windows is JUST LIKE being a sex worker. OK, it was a hot day and I was wearing summer clothing, but really!

          • lady_black

            I experienced catcalling while WASHING MY WINDOWS! In addition, I have (in the past, I’m not young anymore) gone on errands and returned to find notes on my car from strange guys with phone numbers on them who thought I was hot and wanted to take me out. It’s NOT a compliment. It’s stalker-ish and creepy, and it had me looking over my shoulder at all times. If you don’t ‘get it’ I can’t help you. I’m sure some of my fellow posters will understand.

          • cjvg

            Seriously, a woman can not discus harassment and be believed if she is not crying and dressed in black? You do understand that this is a social commentary were the women were approached while going about their day they did not have the time to dress appropriately somber and, right? Many women deal with this in that way, it is so bad that we just make fun of it otherwise we would be crying all the time. Have you somehow lived your whole live never seeing the news, plenty of time people on camera smile even when the topic is not exactly a happy one. Guess what, maybe for once you should try LISTENING to what is actually said! None of these women liked street harassment, none found it at all needed or wanted, take a clue

          • cjvg
  • Bill Contrary

    It occurs to me that feminists could kill two birds with one stone if they gave the sex ed textbooks to construction workers. After all – what if the cat calls were educational? e.g. “Hey baby – you could put on high heels and dominate me anytime” (informing women of the dominant BDSM lifestyle) or “You’d make a good sex slave” (informing them of the availability of submissive roles). These types of cat calls could actually nicely supplement a high school sex ed curriculum and bring valuable information to young women about sex. Perhaps the construction workers could teach these classes.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I prefer the personal approach. And I think sex ed for catcalling construction workers should be mandatory. The construction worker can sex at me and I will kick him mightily in the jewels. What will he learn? Courtesy. Now courtesy can get you laid.

    • goatini

      I know you thought you sounded oh-so-clever. FAIL

      • Bill Contrary

        Actually I knew it was a stretch, that’s why it’s “Guest” – I tried to delete it.

        • fiona64

          We know.

        • cjvg

          Why since your position is that men who catcall only have the best intentions and are trying to make women feel good by “complimenting” them. Obviously these nice (according to you) respectful, women appreciating men, would be very well suited to educating female children about what is expected from them. At least that is how you are painting these men!

          • goatini

            I believe he’s making a not-so-subtle reference to one of the current ginned-up fake anti-Planned Parenthood memes from LIARla Rose and LIE Action. Sort of “Y u no like catcalls? U like BDSM porno 4 teens!” Very clumsily done.

          • cjvg

            Figures, an abusive male who thinks women should accept harassment because men should not be denied their fun reads anti-choice sites! How come I’m not surprised?

          • Bill Contrary

            I have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • goatini

            That denial was “a stretch” as well.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well I can partially infer what goatini’s talking about – but I’m not following that and I don’t know who Laura (?) Rose or LIE Action is.

  • Bill Contrary

    Marcotte – you so HOT – SMOKIN’ baby!

  • John H

    American Jesus is a capitalist Jesus who preaches a Prosperity Gospel. He doesn’t much resemble the radical anti-Roman, socialist Jesus of the various Christian Bibles (he even looks very different).

  • fiona64

    No such thing as post-abortion syndrome.

  • fiona64

    You are not supporting choice.

    Pro-choice people support *all* choices: contraception use or non-use, gestation or termination, adoption or rearing a child alone or with the partner of one’s choice. The whole gamut. Let me put it to you another way: I think Michelle Duggar is a freaking lunatic, but you don’t see me out there trying to legislate away her right to breed like a rabbit. While I sure as hell wouldn’t do it, it’s her right to breed until her uterus prolapses.

    You support forced gestation, which is slavery. You erase the born, sapient, sentient woman from the picture entirely. Why is that?

  • Ann Kah

    I don’t know what you mean by “anymore”. I am reasonably certain that sex has been around for a long, long, time, and the impulse has provided motivation for sexual acts of all sorts. One would have to be truly blind to think that manners would supplant lust at any time in human history. I believe that the dignity innate in every human being can best be realized when we understand ourselves, and that means understanding your own sexual impulses as well. The best defense against being “used” is just such self-awareness.

  • Ann Kah

    The word “choice” implies that a decision was made by the individual. It isn’t choice if someone else chooses for you. Your religious strictures apply to those, and ONLY those, who freely choose that religion. Weaseling your own religious preferences into civil law is shameful, not to mention arrogant, if you think that your church’s policy knows better than an individual who is being deprived of her choice.

  • lady_black

    Yeah…NO. There is no such thing as “post-abortion syndrome,” and the “selfishness shaming” gambit has been used to gaslight women for ages and ages. And no, when I have sex, I do NOT feel “used” because I am not allowing myself to be “used.”

  • lady_black

    Wow. “God” sounds just like G.W. Bush. By the way, Mathilde, this isn’t a forum for preaching the gospel.

    • fiona64

      Oh, is this myintx’ latest handle?

      • lady_black

        No. Myintx isn’t quite as jesus-ey as this one.

  • Bill Contrary

    Incidentally, I asked my girlfriend what she thought about catcalls, and without leading her she said she said they were no big deal and that she would enjoy them if she felt confident that the people catcalling thought she was hot and weren’t laughing at her. I then told her there were a bunch of feminists online all worked up about them and she said that 75% of them are probably mad they were never catcalled and 25% are probably disagreeable no matter what. She also said some women think consent is necessary for everything, from needing consent to pay a compliment to someone, and that if someone kisses you without consent it’s somehow as bad as rape. When I told her the argument the feminists were making is that it’s objectifying to be catcalled, she said that it’s a slippery slope between those arguments and covering women with burkhas lest they be objectified. So bottom line – my girlfriend thinks you’re all nuts too.

    • Unicorn Farm

      “she said that 75% of them are probably mad they were never catcalled and 25% are probably disagreeable no matter what”
      First, the fact that your girlfriend doesn’t mind catcalls doesn’t mean that the rest of us have to like them. I am routinely catcalled and I routinely dislike it. Your girlfriend should consider why she feels the need to insult other women who don’t like being harassed.

      “When I told her the argument the feminists were making is that it’s objectifying to be catcalled, she said that it’s a slippery slope between those arguments and covering women with burkhas lest they be objectified.”

      This doesn’t make any sense at all. I don’t think your girlfriend understands the concept of objectification, what is meant by “slippery slope”. Or, for that matter, burkhas.

      The fact that you feel the need to troll a message board and call grown women “nitwits”, “girls”, “twits”, and “nutcases” because we don’t like BEING HARASSED and are willing to say so says volumes about you.

      • Bill Contrary

        Well, you should know that I only started using language like “nitwits”, “girls”, “twits” and “nutcases” after having received about 100 similar insults myself. It occured to me that perhaps being respectful with you all was what I was doing wrong, and that perhaps if I returned some of the attitude – I would at least be speaking your language.

        • Unicorn Farm

          No. You don’t just get to say “but you are mean to me too!” when you purposefully came into a space to insult women for speaking up about harassment. Respond to the substance of ANY of my posts. You haven’t even tried. I have read your little posts and the bottom line is that you are insulting woman FOR speaking out against harassment. And that is a problem.

          • fiona64

            I have read your little posts and the bottom line is that you are insulting woman FOR speaking out against harassment.

            Exactly. His little, smarmy “I’m a nice guy” routine is like the microthin layer of gold electroplated to pot metal in cheap jewelry.

          • Bill Contrary

            I never said I was a nice guy. I said I was polite to people who weren’t polite to me. There’s a difference.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Polite? Just when have you ever been polite?

          • Unicorn Farm

            So basically what I’m hearing from you is that you’re a jerk who likes to harass women and insult women who don’t like being harassed. Ok then.

          • fiona64

            And yet you have not demonstrated one iota of politeness. You’re dismissive, and you try to gaslight women. That isn’t polite, pookie; it’s passive aggression.

          • Bill Contrary

            OK, “pookie” right back at you. Is “pookie” polite? Is it even necessary or helpful to discussion? It’s another subtle verbal put-down, which your posts are replete with. More evidence for my abusive theory. Are you even capable of writing posts without these?

          • fiona64

            Your constant tone-policing of women, while insisting that there’s nothing wrong with shrieking “nice tits!” at a stranger on the street, is risible.

          • Bill Contrary

            Tone-policing – is this another Scientologist, er Feminist fallacy like ‘mansplaining? Here’s a hint: when you dismiss those that disagree with you with a bunch of fallacies that no one outside of your little group uses, you’re a cult.

          • Arekushieru

            You do know that cultists are more likely to arise from your and SCIENTOLOGISTS ilk alike? We don’t dismiss you because we disagree with you, Billy-boy. And you have been told THAT many a time. It’s because of your mansplaining and attempts to tone-troll when us poor weak-minded WIMMINZ won’t accept your ‘advice’ that we dismiss. OOPS.

          • Bill Contrary

            Really, there are a lot of cults of construction workers and cults of catcallers? Nope.

          • Arekushieru

            Wow you really ARE obtuse! Thanks for proving that you DO engage in catcalls and ARE a construction worker, however!

          • fiona64

            GFY. Is that direct enough to suit you?

          • Bill Contrary

            Gay Feminist Yahoo? Are we still talking about your husband? That’s not very nice. There’s nothing wrong with being gay.

          • fiona64

            Let me spell it out for you, so there can be no mistaking my meeting. Go. Fuck. Yourself.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pookie pookie pookie. Pookie.

          • Bill Contrary

            I love Pookie – the Garfield bear right?

          • goatini

            Personally, I prefer Clyde Adler’s Pookie to Frank Nastasi’s Pookie.

            http://www.zazzle.com/pookie_the_lion_tshirts-235093506925028383

          • cjvg

            Oh, honey it is just a compliment. Pookie is a term of endearment, you know like having nice tits hollered at you by strange men,

          • Bill Contrary

            Your husband likes it when strange men compliment his tits? LOL. I guess you’re his beard.

          • cjvg

            Youi don’t hav to keep proving that you have a problem with readin complrehension, we already knw!

          • Arekushieru

            Whoah, your reading comprehension is getting even WORSE. Typical, however, that being called pookie is somehow far worse than someone ‘complimenting’ a woman’s tits. But it isn’t something that can be done against men, so even that would somehow be far more terrible than ‘complimenting’ a woman’s tits.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? Pookie just can’t take a compliment. He needs to “man up.”

          • cjvg

            It is polite to claim that women who have made clear they are not enjoying your “compliments” must still be subjected to them because your opinion is that it is harmless fun for men?! I guess if you think women are only on earth to provide fun for men and are not actual people who have a right not to be subjected to behavior they find unpleasant, then you have indeed been polite. After all we are women and have no right to find your, dismissal of our feelings about treatment that we encounter, rude!

          • Bill Contrary

            Adult women cannot be seriously harmed by catcalls. They can ignore them, walk away, insult back – it’s a b.s. issue. I apologize to you if I didn’t reply to the substance of your arguments – I *try* to. Is there a particular one you want another reply to?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Adult women cannot be seriously harmed by catcalls.

            Unless you’re on the receiving end, that’s not your call to make.

          • Bill Contrary

            It’s generally accepted wisdom: “sticks and stones may break my bones…but words will never hurt me”. We permit many other forms of teasing & insult in society. What is so special about being whistled at or remarked on that they require special exceptions to our general attitudes about offensive speech? Were YOU seriously harmed by catcalls?

          • goatini

            Yes. Yes, I was. I’ve been catcalled, and worse, since the age of 11. It instilled a deep sense of false shame in me, for I thought *I* must have done something to cause it. Do you think preteen female children should be catcalled and worse?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Verbal abuse is a thing. Why do you refuse to accept this? Threats are real. Why do you refuse to accept that cat calling is sexual harassment that can be threatening?
            I explained to you (and you never responded) why catcalls are NOT teasing.
            I AM harmed by my inability to walk in public without being sexually harassed. Point blank. Full stop.

          • Bill Contrary

            I know verbal abuse is a thing. I’ve gotten plenty of it here.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And all of it well-deserved.

          • Arekushieru

            Verbal abuse that you invited by dismissing women? Tell me, what women invited unsolicited (which leaves out Lewak for you, btw) catcalling?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Flounce, flounce, flounce, get the f*** out.

          • fiona64

            “sticks and stones may break my bones…but words will never hurt me”

            Tell that to anyone who’s ever been verbally abused. I dare you.

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, for FUX sakes. Emotional harm can be just as or even more severe than physical harm. That little verse is taught to children by childish ADULTS. One that gives the BULLY (like you) more power and makes the CHILD think that something is wrong with them if they CAN’T handle it. As adults, we SHOULD be able to have frank and open discussions about our feelings, instead of avoiding them because we’re too childish to deal with them.

          • Bill Contrary

            Frank and open discussions about our feelings (that aren’t sexual) you mean. I mean, a catcall is a frank and open remark about feelings. Perhaps a little too frank for you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No it isn’t. Men who are actually intelligent find ways to express their feelings in ways that are appropriate.

          • Bill Contrary

            At the local strip club.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s certainly the only way you’re likely to see any women.

          • fiona64

            I’m pretty sure that, besides Rosy Inflate-a-Date, the ONLY way he ‘sees’ women involves exchange of commerce.

          • Arekushieru

            And women, there, are more LIKELY to (not necessarily often) consent(ing) to such behaviour from men. Oops.

          • Arekushieru

            It is not an open and frank discussion of the WOMAN’S feelings, now, IS it? You know what else is a frank and open remark about one’s feelings yet ignores the victim’s? Rape. So are you going to say that rape is now an open and frank discussion about the rapist’s feelings (of whom the majority are men) even though it ignores the victim’s feelings?

          • fiona64

            Learn the difference between a remark and a discussion. Then, perhaps, we can talk. Men yelling “nice tits” are neither being complimentary nor attempting to initiate dialogue. They are trying to demonstrate their power over a solitary woman who is going about her day-to-day business.

          • Bill Contrary

            Your words are harsh and hurt my feelings.

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, please, you expect someone to believe that when you don’t bother to worry about WOMEN’S feelings? Please. Or are ONLY your feelings important? Typical misogyny.

          • fiona64

            He’s already established that his feelings are the only ones that matter.

          • Arekushieru

            And that is all I’m talking about. That I don’t believe you, unless you are either a) lying about how you think women should enjoy catcalling or b) you are admitting that you are a misogynist.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s generally accepted wisdom: “sticks and stones may break my bones…but words will never hurt me”.

            Wisdom? You’re like some kind of a case study in arrested development.

          • fiona64

            All men who cat-call are, IMO, case studies in arrested development.

            As for the video Amanda refers to above for which the link apparently did not work, res ipsa loquitor : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUJ24mblCLY

          • lady_black

            Your “wisdom” needs more wisdom.

          • Unicorn Farm

            It’s NOT a BS issue. It is sexual harassment. It can be very threatening. It is inherently objectifying. I’d love for you to walk through life being threatened so you could see what it feels like. The bottom line is that it is NOT your call to make whether it is harmful. Why don’t you read through the posts and respond- its not my job to spell it out for you again. You are literate, right? I’m starting to doubt.

          • Bill Contrary

            You would have all unsolicited sexual remarks be classified as sexual harassment. But they can’t ALL be. If it’s threatening – than it’s a threat. And we’re not talking about catcalls anymore. We’re talking about threats. If it’s stalking – we’re talking about stalking. Construction workers whistling harmlessly at a woman walking by are NOT threatening that woman.

            Let me pose a silly (but I feel relevant) question: Are you offended by *actual* cat calls. (By actual *cats* – felines?)

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes I have classified all cat calls as sexual harassment. Support your assertion that they can’t all be.

            I’m not responding to another post until YOU back up some of your claims that catcalling just isn’t that bad or isn’t harassment. All you’ve done is sit here and insist that it’s not, and that all these women are wrong. This, despite the fact that you have NEVER experienced it and we ALL have.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well, Unicorn: first, “all these women” really means very little to me. I’m sure if I was on a Scientologist blog I’d be told that “all these people” were the voice and barometer of sanity. You do understand that you’re not a representative sample of the broader population, I would hope. Second, Newak herself made the argument that catcalling was actually highly enjoyable for her. Anything that *I* would say would be inferior to her testimony.

          • cjvg

            ONE women invalidates ALL the other women on this blog on yes all women, commenting on the slate article who do NOT enjoy it. You are just making excuses to justify your antisocial behavior. And poor excuses at that

          • Unicorn Farm

            So all of the women telling you they DONT like sexual harassment mean very little to you, but some how your opinion is worth less than the opinion of a woman who had experienced catcalling and purports to like it? How fucking convenient. So explain to me: why is Newaks opinion worthy of your respect but not the opinions of the women here?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Let me pose a silly (but I’m interested in as a thought experiment) question: Are you offended by *actual* cat calls. (By which I mean actual cats: felines?)

            This has got to be just about the dumbest thing that anyone has ever written.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well, with you feminists, you never know. It’s silly that I have *to ask* these things. For all I know, you host support groups for assaulted cats where you teach them about victimization.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Don’t try for wit. You’re not any good at it.

          • Arekushieru

            Yes, it IS silly, because cats aren’t targeting anyone with their calls. Oops. And you can;t go back and claim that you meant the same for men, because you actually SAID they are targeting women. AW.

          • Bill Contrary

            Male cats aren’t targeting female cats?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No.

          • Arekushieru

            Do you NOT realize that they aren’t targeting female cats but actually sending out a call for them to accept it or not? It’d be like a construction worker calling out to a woman asking her if she’d like to meet up with him later or not. Once they accept or reject, they move on, however. Oops.

            Also, are you REALLY saying that male and female cats have a concept of consent? You DO realize that you just said that fetuses also have a concept of consent, then, right? It means that you just gave us MORE reason to fight for the right of choice. I thought you were a forced birther, though.

          • fiona64

            Presumably you are not. If you are not – why are actual cat calls
            “natural” , but the human equivalent – the human male calling the female
            – “unnatural” and “offensive”?

            And now you’ve moved completely into Stupid-Land.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Bill seems to be trying to imply that male catcalling is somehow natural. Is he actually trying to say that he doesn’t think men can’t control themselves?

          • fiona64

            Bill seems to be trying to imply that male catcalling is somehow
            natural. Is he actually trying to say that he doesn’t think men can’t
            control themselves?

            That does appear to be the case. And, according to another post he made, if women don’t like the fact that men cannot stop themselves being boors, we should just move to another town where, apparently, by some magic, no boors are to be found.

            Bill is a whack-a-doodle.

          • Bill Contrary

            Men can stop themselves – but why bother? Plenty of women enjoy it. They wouldn’t do it if it there weren’t women who enjoyed it.

          • cjvg

            So you claim, so far you produced only one and made some uncheck able claim that your girlfriend with the bad judgment likes it too

          • Bill Contrary

            Actually, technically my girlfriend said she might enjoy it if she had more self-confidence.

          • fiona64

            If your alleged girlfriend realized her own self-worth, she’d stop giving discounts on it (her self-worth, that is, since I need to draw you pictures pretty regularly) to low-rent losers like you.

          • Bill Contrary

            OK – that comment furthers the discussion how? More pervasive verbal harassment from Fiona. I kind of get the sense that if you were male you’d be one HELL of a sexual harasser to women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If your ‘girlfriend’ quit dating ‘men’ like you, her self-confidence would grow by leaps and bounds.

          • fiona64

            My point, my dear, is that (let’s pretend your girlfriend is real for a minute, okay?) if she realized her self-worth, she wouldn’t be with someone like you who thinks it is okay to “usually” diminish her feelings (by your own admission) and who thinks it is funny when his friends are rude to her. She would be with someone who treats her decently.

            One really does grow tired of having to explain the obvious to a man who claims to have completed university and law school …

          • cjvg

            So what is it, she likes being catcalled or she does not like being catcalled? Remember that you previously stated that according to her 75% of women who do not like it are bitches who never get catcalled, and the other 25% were just miserable people in general.
            That makes a 100% of women she just unilaterally, and without any knowledge of them, assigned a reason to for not liking or wanting to be harassed on the street. There was no other reason that women could possibly not like being cat called according to her so she must fall in one of those two categories!
            So that leaves us with the she is a bitch who never gets catcalled and is jealous since she indicated she in reality did not like it. Or she is a miserable person in general. Of course there is her general condition of lack of self esteem and picking abusive boyfriends to date. That could men she is being dishonest and just tells you what you want to hear (which would fit with her tendency to chose abusive boyfriends) that your approval of catcalling over the objections of every women you actually have conversed with (Of course you did read, not actually talked but read one account from one women making some nebulous personal claim to actually enjoy it)

          • Unicorn Farm

            They wouldn’t do it if there weren’t women who enjoyed it? Replace catcall with rape or hit. Do you think that men wouldn’t rape women if there “weren’t some women who enjoyed it”? Do you think men wouldn’t hit women “if there weren’t some women who enjoyed it?” You are a sick freak who likes to justify the harassment and abuse of women. I feel so bad for your abused girlfriend.

          • Bill Contrary

            Physical acts again. Catcalling is not rape. Try again. Some men may not enjoy being verbally abused by feminists – but consideration hasn’t stopped any of you.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Stop your whining and answer my questions. You know thst my analogies show that your position is bullshit. Face it.

          • goatini

            It’s pervasive because SO MANY MEN do it. Most of the men who catcalled me (and worse) when I was a preteen child commuting to school looked like someone’s Dad or uncle. They weren’t figurative slavering wolves, like the type parodied in a Tex Avery cartoon.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You should BOTHER because even if there are some women who do like it, there are some who do NOT. And you should refrain from acting like a complete a** to those women. For example, there are some men who like hard items shoved up their rectums. Does that mean I can shove something up yours? After all, some men like it, so why bother stopping?

          • Bill Contrary

            That’s rape. A physical act. You’re equating speech to rape. Is catcalling speech raping you? That seems to be your basic argument over and over again – that you have been “raped” by a comment that you found offensive.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No you moron: the point of my post was to say that it is not acceptable to treat one person one way simply because another person doesn’t mind. There is no reasonable universe in which you can disagree with that statement, is there? You just won’t cause you won’t admit you’re wrong.

          • thedoorisajar

            Hey UF, legal question for you.

            I have heard anti-choicers bring this up frequently, and I would like your opinion.

            If a hospital mixes up and takes your kidney by mistake, and implants it in another person, would you be within your rights to take it back? Or would you be shit out of luck, because their right to your kidney overrides your right to your kidney?

            They also operate under the assumption, it seems, that if the patient loses your kidney they will die. They won’t, they can just go back on dialysis.

          • fiona64

            You keep telling yourself that lie; I’m sure you find it comforting.

          • lady_black

            Farting is natural, too. That doesn’t mean anyone else wants to smell it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very true.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well it’s natural for cats! Why not for people. Every month there’s several days where women can’t control themselves. You’d think there’d be a little sympathy. Geesh.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, no sympathy. Most decent men control themselves quite well. Apparently you can’t. That’s your problem.

          • Bill Contrary

            I think really you’re less mad that men can’t control themselves and more mad that you can’t control men.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, decent men can and do control themselves. If they can’t or don’t, they’re not decent. Like you.

          • Bill Contrary

            Oh no – indecency! Call the Anti-Indecency League! Feminists are here to save us from ourselves! What book should we burn first? “How to Pick Up Chicks?” Catcalls will be the death of civilization as we know it!

          • Arekushieru

            If you need a book on How to Pick Up Chicks, clearly you are not someone worth knowing in the first place.

          • cjvg

            Pathetic, men can control themselves it is just cretins masquerading as men who can not

          • Arekushieru

            But you expect US, as WOMEN, to control them, Bill dear. Or, at the very least, take responsibility for OUR actions as WELL as theirs. Funny that you don’t call for men to take responsibility for or control over their OWN actions by just not catcalling, which should be fairly simple by your OWN claims, as WE have been doing. Self-projection much?

          • Bill Contrary

            I don’t call on men to stop because I don’t think it’s a big problem. It adds spice & variety to life. Must we sanitize EVERYTHING?

          • fiona64

            I don’t call on men to stop because I don’t think

            That’s the complete sentence, right there. You don’t call on men to stop because You. Don’t. Think. Would you like it if someone was yelling “nice tits” at your sister? Your *mother*? Your alleged girlfriend?

          • Arekushieru

            And yet you have several WOMEN, here, telling you that it IS. Guess what, I’ll take the word of someone who experiences it DAILY over someone who actually ADMITTED to the fact that he was a construction worker who supports the feelings of MEN over the women who, again, ACTUALLY experience it. It adds spice and variety to YOUR (MENZ) lives and that’s all that really matters to you. MEN.

          • Arekushieru

            DaFUQ? Did you just seriously say what the hell I think you just said? You just totally dismissed every argument you made. If I COULD I would have both my breasts removed AND take out my ovaries and uterus. They have been NOTHING but a source of aggravation to me, my entire life. Dismissing a woman’s hormonal changes by comparing them to a WILLFUL act on men’s parts is just about the most DISGUSTING thing you could have done, and nothing better to have said that could have proven your MISOGYNY MORE.

            Btw, PLEASE stop renegotiating your goalposts every other time. First men aren’t animals, then they are, then they aren’t, again. Seriously. Just. Stahp.

          • Bill Contrary

            I wasn’t aware I had to commit to some taxonomy of species. I’m not a biologist. Humans are a species, much like animals – and have hormones – as you acknowledged, etc. I guess the female hormones are more “legit” and natural than the male ones.

          • goatini

            So, anti-social “hormonal” acting-out is appropriate, just so long as it falls short of physical assault. Do I have that right?

            Also, with regard to physical contact, where do the public transportation gropers fit into the “catcaller” spectrum of anti-social “hormonal” acting out? You know, the guys who get away with it because the train is so crowded. Does putative anonymity place this in the “appropriate” category?

          • Arekushieru

            Thanks for proving that points KEEP flying right over your effing head. Putting up with bullshit such as yours, going through ACTUAL hormonal changes, enduring some of the most disgusting feelings and periods of depressive symptoms associated with those hormonal changes, as well as for MANY, unendurable, unending pain is comparable to slightly higher testosterone levels in men that apparently they can’t control (although, when it comes to women who aren’t going through these monthly hormonal changes and only experiencing slightly higher levels of estrogen they can, and apparently SHOULD be able to, control themselves), although you HAVE said, before, that you aren’t arguing that they CAN’T control themselves. Wow, you’re just all over the board, aren’t you, hypocritical misogynist?

          • goatini

            “Cat call” is the polite term for “aggressive verbal sexual assault”. Perhaps we should just call this anti-social aberrant behavior exactly what it is from now on. Do you think that an adult male shouting at an 11-year-old female child about her “tits” and his “dick” is “natural”?

          • fiona64

            He seems to be ignoring this point. Why do you think that is?

          • goatini

            Prolly because he thinks that any female that is showing signs of secondary sexual characteristics should be legitimately sexually available.

          • Jennifer Starr

            His name is either on a registry or it will be soon.

          • Bill Contrary

            I’d love a new toaster.

          • Jennifer Starr

            With your inclinations, the registry you’re likely to end up on will be of the criminal variety.

          • Bill Contrary

            I knew what you meant the first time. Have a sense of humor.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I don’t have a sense of humor about child abuse.

          • Bill Contrary

            I’m trying to learn the feminist slang. This is “moving the goalposts”, right?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, it’s not.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Pedophile

          • Bill Contrary

            The pookie point? Was there an actual point somewhere?

          • Bill Contrary

            Aggressive? Asssault? Those are big words for little girls. Is the patriarchy aggressively assaulting you right now with subliminal messages?

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you’re an apologist for pedophiles. Somehow I’m not surprised.

          • Bill Contrary

            Who doesn’t love a high quality audio recording?

          • cjvg

            Getting “s*ck my d*ck or “nice tits” hollered at you by strangers on the street is a subliminal message? I hate to see what you consider explicit

          • Bill Contrary

            You have to mix a pedophilic element in to gain a little leverage in your rather weak argument?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’ve been the one mixing that in, Bill.

          • goatini

            I’ve stated several times in these comments that catcalling, and worse, began for me when I was 11 years old, going to school. My comment was an actual experience. Other women have also commented here that for them, catcalling at them began when they were young preteens. I notice that you avoided these comments earlier, but now you seem to be drunk-posting.

          • Bill Contrary

            If pre-teens are being catcalled surely that is a positive thing. It’s a good wake-up call that they are sexually attractive and will serve them well in avoiding would-be rapists. It will serve them much better than a feminist lecture on BDSM or pamphlet about rape. Your solution is to keep young women ignorant about sex?

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you don’t see anything wrong with a grown man who would find a preteen sexually attractive? Or is this behavior that you indulge in yourself?

          • Unicorn Farm

            So once a girl learns that grown men want to have sex with her, how is a 11 year old supposed to use this knowledge to defend herself against rapists?

            You also realize that you are admitting that catcalling 11 year olds is inherent threatening (it puts them on notice of men who might rape them). Do you NOW understand that that is why sexual harassment is very bad, and not a compliment?

          • goatini

            I see that my earlier comment on this topic, positing that the operative ethic for catcalling was that any female with any visible secondary sex characteristics = legitimately sexually available, was right on target.

            And let me get this straight – making abusive sexual threats to a minor child is somehow a character-building activity for the victim. Did I get that right?

          • Bill Contrary

            Whom am I to say what is “natural”. Nature says what’s natural. I think an 11 year old girl would be well-served to learn that men, including adult men – see her sexually. It may protect her from rape in the future. Better than putting people in a bubble of ignorance about sex.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you see an eleven year old child sexually, there is something very, very wrong with you.

          • Bill Contrary

            Some of them are sexually active at that age, you know? You’re sounding like a Conservative. These kids just -can’t- be having sex. They’re too young!

          • Jennifer Starr

            You sound like a pedophile.

          • Bill Contrary

            Well I’m not, so deal with it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You make excuses for pedophiles–you don’t seem to think that there’s anything wrong with a grown man finding minor children sexually attractive.

          • fiona64

            And just when I thought you couldn’t get any creepier …

          • Unicorn Farm

            Please seek help for your abusive nature and pedophelia before you hurt any more women and girls.

          • goatini

            Sounds a lot like disgraced priest Benedict Groeschel’s victim-blaming:

            “Suppose you have a man having a nervous breakdown, and a youngster comes after him. A lot of the cases, the youngster — 14, 16, 18 — is the seducer …”

          • fiona64

            I think an 11 year old girl would be well-served to learn that men,
            including adult men – see her sexually. May protect her from rape in
            the future.

            Do you know what would be the best protection for that 11-year-old child against rape?

            Teaching men that it is not okay to treat women as objects. And teaching them not to cat-call. And teaching them ::wait for it:: not to rape.

            Rape is not about whether or not someone is “sexually attractive.” Just like cat-calling, it is about *power.* Infants are raped. Elderly women are raped. Are you going to argue that this was because the rapist thought that these women were “sexually attractive.”

            You have, with your own remarks, blamed an 11-year-old CHILD for being raped because men just can’t control themselves ohmigod.

          • Bill Contrary

            Good luck teaching rapists not to treat women as objects. I’m sure that they will flock to your Feminist lecture on that subject. Meanwhile, I’ll confine my policy ideas to real-world thinking. You do understand that thinking you can “teach” rapists not to rape is equivalently idiotic to the idea that teaching abstinence is going to be effective birth control?

            “You have, with your own remarks, blamed an 11-year-old CHILD for being raped because men just can’t control themselves ohmigod.” No I didn’t. Dirtytricksfromdumbfeminists.com ?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Real world. Rapists don’t rape because they find someone sexually attractive. They rape someone because they want to hurt them.

          • Bill Contrary

            Oh, more feminist cult belief. I guess the rapist with a “type” (e.g. blondes that look like their mother, etc.) is a myth?

            If rapists just wanted to hurt people – there’s a million ways to hurt people. Serial killers kill and torture because they want to hurt people. There is a sexual component to what rapists do because what they do is – wait for it – sex. DUH.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So I suppose in your world this man was just too shy to ask for a date, right? http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-news/ci_25099280/albuquerque-man-accused-rape-abuse-4-month-old

          • fiona64

            There is a sexual component to what rapists do because what they do is – wait for it – sex. DUH.

            No. It is for removing the bodily autonomy of their victim. It is using sex as a weapon of power and control, not because of sexual desire.

            And that serial rapist thing that you mention? Is exercising power and control by proxy over the person at whom they are angry.

            Forcing a victim to have sexual intercourse is hurting them. It is taking away their right to consent to what happens to their own body.

            And cat-calling does the same thing.

            You need to educate yourself about a whole lot of things, but clearly the dynamics of rape is at the top of the list: http://www.mnsu.edu/varp/assault/myths.html

            Quote:

            Myth: The primary motive for rape is impulsive sexual desire.

            Fact: Studies show that the major motive for rape is power, not sex. Sex is used as a weapon toinflict pain, violence and humiliation. Most rapists appear to have normal personalities with an abnormal tendency to be aggressive and violent. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of sexual assaults are planned in advance.

            No love, a survivor (I guess I just shouldn’t have been taking a walk in broad daylight, wearing a long-sleeved, high-necked top and jeans, in a good neighborhood? Guess I was asking for it, according to you)

          • Bill Contrary

            This subject is too far beyond the original argument for me to pursue. I am aware of the feminist belief and its foundations and think the role of “power” is overemphasized in rape. That is all I wish to say lest we go too far aground.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry that actual facts are beyond your ability to comprehend, but that really is not *my* fault.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Translation: I got proven wrong by women and peer reviewed studies. Lest I reveal how much of a complete misogynistic moron I am, I’m going to deflect this conversation.

          • fiona64

            Hey, dummy? Learn to read for comprehension.

            I said teach *men* not to rape, not “teach rapists not to rape.”

            I know, facts are hard.

            And yeah, you did blame the 11-year-old child. After all, she needs to “learn that men will find her sexually attractive” so that she can avoid rapists later on, in your own words. It’s all that child’s fault that she was raped, because she obviously didn’t work hard enough at “avoiding rapists.”

            You’re sick.

            Edited to add: You apparently think that the word “men” is synonymous with “rapist.” Why is that?

          • Bill Contrary

            Teach *men* not to rape. But men who rape are …wait for it…rapists. A bit bizarre argument. I guess I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt (which you would never do for me) and assume you’re suggesting that there are subgroups of potential rapists and some (like maybe the college date or frat rapist) might be reachable with some appeal to reason or emotion about rape…ok, what of it?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Every rapist was at one piping a man who was not a rapist. At some point, that man made he decision to rape. Men at not born rapists. They do not spring forth from the womb as either rapists or not. At some point, they learn that raping women is ok. And they learn that from terrible men with terrible attitudes like yours. That is why you are a part of rape culture and are a vile human being. We believe that men can be taught not to rape, and so they won’t become rapists.

            Also “feminist dipshit”? Buddy, you’re so far out of your league here talking about things you don’t understand. You can’t even understand basic analogies. You routinely excuse rape and sexual harassment. You need therapy before you hurt more women and girls.

          • Unicorn Farm

            We are trying to teach you that verbal sexual abuse is wrong. Please seek professional help before you hurt more women or girls.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I wouldn’t allow him within fifty feet of any child without an armed guard present.

          • catseye

            I’d volunteer but I only have an unarmed security certification.

          • goatini

            Looks like his reply got nuked that had the quote you cite above. My comment to that was:

            I see that my earlier comment on this topic, positing that the operative ethic for catcalling was that any female with any visible secondary sex characteristics = legitimately sexually available, was right on target.
            And let me get this straight – making abusive sexual threats to a minor child is somehow a character-building activity for the victim. Did I get that right?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wow. You are a sick, sick fuck. Please seek help before you hurt someone.

          • cjvg

            I don’t even find whistling objectionable, but clearly we were talking about the nasty crude sexual innuendo and the come here so I can teach you what a real man is like comments. That is why you now reduce it to merely whistling!

            NOT ONE SINGLE COMMENT was about objecting to whistling

            NOT ONE SINGLE STATEMENT has been made about merely whistling

            NOT ONE SINGLE SIGN posted by women and girls had “he only whistled at me”

            You are well aware that it is never just whistling, all the women here objected to the crude sexual slang the crude sexual invitations, the crude sexual suggestions we must do etc etc.

            Again, explain to me why men must engage in this if they are well aware the majority of women feel harassed when they do? Why are you so willing to dismiss the obvious negative effects on women for behavior that men can easily refrain from and it would not have a single negative effect on them or their lives?

            Obviously you have no social conscious and do not consider women and girls deserving of the same respect for their feelings and needs as men
            ,

          • lady_black

            Yes, ALL sexual remarks are harassment when made unwanted by men a woman has no interest in. Didn’t your mother teach you to never make remarks about people’s physical appearance? Telling a stranger she looks “hot” is no different than telling her she’s “fat.” BOTH are equally inappropriate, and equally juvenile. Grow up, boy.

          • Bill Contrary

            Um, you don’t really believe that. You’re probably just mad you were told the latter, and not the former.

          • Arekushieru

            Wow, thanks for ADMITTING, now that this IS all just about women being sexually available and desirable. It IS about putting women into categories of physically appealing or unappealing. Thanks for admitting that ALL your arguments up till now are invalid.

          • Jennifer Starr

            His mother apparently failed to teach him manners.

          • Bill Contrary

            If you want men to see what it feels like, then catcall them. DUH.

          • cjvg

            If you want men to feel what rape is like then rape them duh, if you want men to feel what harassment is like then terrorize them duh.

            Ugh you are one sick dude!

            Unfortunately for us we re not antisocial abusers who enjoy victimizing other humans. No we will not sink to your appalling depths of inhumanity

            Slowly but surely the dregs o humanity will lose all power they have over society, after all at least catcalling is being discussed now and no longer ignored as just a woman’s problem

          • Bill Contrary

            I’m pretty sure what you just did there is a fallacy. Catcalling is just speech. Rape is a physical violation. Apples to oranges.

          • Unicorn Farm

            There is no way you can be a lawyer if your ability to recognize an analogy is that bad. It’s hysterical. And, as has been explained to you over and over and over again, sexual harassment is not “just speech.” Many many things you can say are not simply “just speech”. Even aspiring first year law students who probably aren’t smart enough to get into decent law schools know that.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You are as dumb as a box of hair. When most women are physically stronger than most men and when most rapes are rapes of men by women, maybe you’d at least be in the right ballpark of having a point. Besides, why should bad behavior be met with bad behavior? We are already telling you what it’s like to be cat called and you refuse to pay attention. DUH.

          • fiona64

            Adult women cannot be seriously harmed by catcalls.

            And on what do you base this assertion? Because it sure as hell isn’t reality.

            Sexual harassment is harmful. Period, full stop.

        • fiona64

          Harassment is agresssive pressure or intimidation or pervasive unwanted conduct by the same person against another person. Unless it’s the same person catcalling you over and over – it’s not harassment.

          Is anyone really this great a simpleton?

        • Unicorn Farm

          you flaming imbecile. I explained downthread the difference between severe and pervasive harassment, as a legal term, and simply harassment. Read it and get back to me.

          “The word doesn’t mean what you think it means.”

          I am a lawyer. It ABSOLUTELY means what I think it means.

          ” And Free Speech means people get to speak things other people dislike.”

          No it doesn’t. It means the government can’t restrict your speech unless it fulfills certain criteria.

          You’re not really playing with a full deck, are you?

          “And I don’t think objectification is necesarily (sic) and always a bad thing.”
          No, no you’re NOT playing with a full deck. When, exactly, do you think objectification is OK?

          • Arekushieru

            “I am a lawyer. It ABSOLUTELY means what I think it means.”

            I was just WAITING for him to give you the chance to use that line! YAY for me!

          • Unicorn Farm

            :D
            I don’t know ALL the laws, by any means, but I DO know about sexual harassment laws. The Court of Appeals in my circuit has upheld orders I’ve written (for my Judge, of course) deciding Title VII cases.

          • Bill Contrary

            I see. And is catcalling Sexual Harassment in your jurisdiction?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes. It absolutely is. Whether you can sue your employer for it depends on a range of factors, in the civil arena. Which is what title VII is all about.

          • Bill Contrary

            Congrats. I’m a lawyer as well. “Free Speech” is a guarantee in the Constitution of the United States – BUT it’s also a principle of free societies and often respected by localities, communities, private parties where there is no legal requirement to do so. Many other countries have free speech, with or without 1st amendments, I”m sure various international charters etc.recognize fundamental rights to free speech. Your occupation as a lawyer here blinds you – the 1st amendment is a single instantiation of a social belief in free speech – it is NOT the only instantiation and it is not the be-all and end-all of free speech, which is a concept and practice much bigger than a single Amendment to one nation’s governing law.

            I will have to refresh my reading of your post on severe and pervasive harassment – but if your argument is that catcalls are SEVERE, than that’s not a winning one.

            As for objectification – it’s often a good thing. Not only is most art, science, and reason the product of objectification, but sexual objectification is not always bad. BDSM objectifies people all the time and those that enjoy that enjoy it. There’s a great cartoon blog post today on one feminist site depicting Disney Princes and their Dicks (in the style of nude Disney Princes that you may have seen) and I think it’s wonderful and pro-male even if it was intended not to be. I think it there were more sexual objectification of males, males would have much healthier self-esteems and sex lives.

          • goatini

            So is graphic catcalling, and worse, done to an 11 year old preteen female child, “Free Speech”? I’d like to know your esteemed legal opinion on this.

          • lady_black

            It is free speech. It isn’t consequence-free speech. The dad of the 11 year old girl might punch him in the nose, and most people will think of him as a dirty old man.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I highly doubt you’re a lawyer.

            “I will have to refresh my reading of your post on severe and pervasive harassment – but if your argument is that catcalls are SEVERE, than that’s not a winning one.”

            You might want to, and you may want to learn how to READ, because that’s not what I wrote. AT ALL. I wrote that all cat calls are harassment. “Severe and pervasive” only factors in when you are suing your employer.

            “Not only is most art, science, and reason the product of objectification but sexual objectification is not always bad. BDSM objectifies people all the time and those that enjoy that enjoy it. There’s a great cartoon blog post today on one feminist site depicting Disney Princes and their Dicks (in the style of nude Disney Princes that you may have seen) and I think it’s wonderful and pro-male even if it was intended not to be. I think it there were more sexual objectification of males, males would have much healthier self-esteems and sex lives”

            Jesus wept. What is this word salad? What is this, I don’t even.

          • Bill Contrary

            Are you speaking as a lawyer when you say that all catcalls are harassment? Is that in your jurisdiction? Or is that a personal opinion that reflects the way you wish the law was, and not the actual state of the law? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter. You really shouldn’t mix actual law in with wishful thinking – it’s not very professional.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh shut the fuck up. You’ve done nothing on this thread other than whine that women complain when you treat them like shit. You’ve posted no arguments, no facts, nothing. YES in my circuit catcalling is sexual harassment in the civil law context. YES. You can say you’re pretty sure it’s the latter all you want, but you’ve got nothing to back that up.

          • fiona64

            I’m a lawyer as well.

            If you’re a lawyer, I’m Napoleon Bonaparte.

          • lady_black

            He’d need to know that difference between a civil wrong and a criminal wrong.

          • Bill Contrary

            More reality denial. Unsurprising.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’re not a lawyer. That’s reality.

          • Bill Contrary

            OK – that’s clever.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Something that you are not.

          • Bill Contrary

            Something that I am not. Let’s see. A hysterical feminist? Was that it?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not a lawyer.

          • Arekushieru

            He doesn’t keep track of the things he says, so I very much doubt he can keep track of what someone else says in a thread that much more.

          • catseye

            Over on the tacos and beer thread we’ve got a bozo who couldn’t remember which sock he was playing. At one point he was going on about his “husband” and then he said he was a 58-year-old MALE Vietnam vet. Now, since very few gay men are going to harass women they don’t know on a repro-rights blog, ya just gotta wonder………

          • Jennifer Starr

            If he’s only 58 years old, he was never in Vietnam–he would’ve been on 17 when it ended.

          • catseye

            Ya gotta wonder about all these screen socks.

          • catseye

            No, you’re an hysterical MRA. And what you’re NOT is clever.

          • Arekushieru

            You don’t read very well, DO you. What is the effing difference between BDSM and catcalling? One is CONSENTED to, the other is not. Oops? Sexual objectification that is NOT consented to is analogous to RAPE. You have been TOLD this, before. Wearing a burqa is the opposite extreme of what YOU would do. SFS.

            Also, in regards to your free speech comment, you have yet to refute UF’s argument that it pertains to government interference. Again, SFS.

          • Bill Contrary

            We live in America. You don’t have to have “consent” to speak here.

          • Arekushieru

            YOU live in the UNITED STATES. I don’t. However, you STILL can’t read very well. The one DOING something is not the one we were talking about who has to have consent, here, now WAS it? It’s the one who HAS something done to them that needs to GIVE consent that we WERE discussing, I do believe. If you want to conflate the two, stop doing so FALSELY AND changing the goalposts. This MEANS do not conflate (not) having to HAVE consent with having to GIVE consent, if you want to make your comparisons analogous. Because, now, either WAY your comparisons FAIL.

            And you do need consent to speak if your actions affect other people, specifically groups of humans that are ALREADY targets of some form of oppression or another. Free speech applies to SPEECH, only. It does NOT mean you should be given a space, forum or VENUE in which to practice it or on whom to vent it. Besides, this deals only with the GOVERNMENT, NOT the citizens, themselves. As we have already said it is not something that we want to make CRIMINAL, it would be really nice if you stop attacking strawmen. What we HAVE been asking you, however, is to stop brushing women with a double standard, meaning that they must take responsibility not only for their OWN actions but for the MEN, as well. Oops.

          • fiona64

            I think it there were more sexual objectification of males, males would have much healthier self-esteems and sex lives.

            And yet you pretend not to be an MRA. Heh. Everything is all about the men’s poor widdle feewings with you, isn’t it?

            “Boohoo! I can’t get laid because I’m afraid to talk to women up-close and personal as though they’re actual people, so I’ll yell nasty things at them instead and hope that works. Woe is me!”

            Good god.

          • lady_black

            Oh lord, you must have been reading my mind. This guy is as juvenile as they come. Permanently arrested at the pubertal level o development.

          • cjvg

            Again he completely dismisses that he is requesting it, as in consent(of course he is also dismissing the fact that he does not speak for all men). Obviously the majority of women do not want it and are most certainly not consenting.

          • Jennifer Starr

            BDSM should be consensual. Adults who have posed for photos have consented to pose. Random women walking down the street have not consented to be bothered by so-called ‘men’ such as yourself.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Word salad.

          • fiona64

            Aren’t Princess Ariel and Alice in Wonderland usually flat-chested?

            Um, sweetie? Aside from the fact that Alice was supposed to be a schoolgirl of about 10 (which makes you pretty freaking sick if you are thinking sexual thoughts about a child that age)? You’re talking about cartoons.

            Not real girls or women.

            Fake ones.

            Like your blow-up doll “girlfriend.”

            Maybe that’s why you get your knickers in a giant twist when actual women call you out on your nonsense. Hmm.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually if you go by the books, Alice is supposed to be around seven and a half. Bill is seriously disturbed.

          • Bill Contrary

            At 7 1/2 Alice was probably more mature than you. Hey – I don’t draw the pictures. I doubt all those “Princes” the feminists are drawing are of age either.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you’re telling us you like underage children? I stand by my previous statement. You are disturbed.

          • Bill Contrary

            Actual girls? What evidence is there that you’re a girl? A feminine screen nick?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Delusions of grandeur. I am sure ‘Sharon’ is shaking in her Ferragamos.

          • cjvg

            Now you are devolving into stalking and personal treats, those are illegal esquire

          • Jennifer Starr

            Now this time I have flagged you.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for admitting that you’re stalking people, loser-boy.

          • cjvg

            Objectification, has so many positive connotations and always results in good things. After all people never treat objects badly, right

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Agree it says a lot. One of things it says is that its GF’s name is Rosy Palm.

        • fiona64
          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            LOL. Do you think it gives her oral?

        • Bill Contrary

          Women that disagree with you don’t exist. That’s a convenient belief.

          • fiona64

            Women that disagree with you don’t exist.

            Oh, Bill. Bill, Bill, Bill. Your Freudian slip is showing. Objects are referred to as “that.” People, such as women? Are referred to as “who” or “whom.”

          • Bill Contrary

            Oh my god – an objectification! It’s frightening! And in print no less. I can’t look away! Didn’t I just take all their rights away with a single “that”? You must save them Fiona – you must! This is the mission that you were born for – the moment that you are waiting for that will give your life special significance. You ARE the CHOSEN.

          • Arekushieru

            Oi. Do you even KNOW what is meant by a Freudian Slip? Obviously not. Because it does NOT mean what that garbage you just spewed means.

          • Bill Contrary

            Dictionary.com’s top 4 definitions of “that” as a pronoun all either include persons, or are specifically about persons. What is your point here, really? Merriam-Websters includes persons. I guess the English language itself just Freudian slipped.

          • fiona64

            “Ladies and gentlemen … a tap-dance.” /’Chicago’ reference

          • Bill Contrary

            I prefer good music.

          • fiona64

            You have no idea what I’m talking about, do you?

            Quelle surprise.

          • Bill Contrary

            The musical/movie (2002) with Richard Gere?

          • fiona64

            Actually, it was a theatrical production long before it was a film.

          • Arekushieru

            Wow, ableist much? It’s no surprise, however. You’ve already confirmed that you are a misogynistic hypocrite.

            What Plum Dumpling SAID was DELIBERATE on her part. Yours was not. Do you understand what a Freudian SLIP is, now?

            Is that definition a SLANG term or is it actually the accepted USAGE of the term. Kthx.

          • fiona64

            FOAD.

          • Bill Contrary

            Plum Dumpling referred to me as “it” twice – an object. In fact, that’s the post I was replying to, so if my subconscious picked it up – it was obviously from her. Your gender bias is showing.

          • fiona64

            Man up, Bill. Learn to take a compliment.

          • Bill Contrary

            It wasn’t a compliment.

          • fiona64

            Oh, no! You just don’t understand. Poor Plum is probably too shy to walk up to someone and speak to them in person. She is just trying to let you know that she is interested. Don’t you understand that some people have no social skills? You should feel sorry for people like that; they’re just doing the best they can to express themselves without fear of rejection via a time-tested ritual.

          • Bill Contrary

            Plum didn’t catcall me. Nice try.

          • fiona64

            She was just trying to let you know she was interested. Don’t you know how to take a compliment?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh have a sense of humor. You angry men need to learn to laugh a little.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You need to stop trying to pretend that you know any actual women.

          • cjvg

            How ironic coming from you!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No, your GF does not exist. You are not attractive enough for any sane woman to get that stupid about you. You are so ugly when you sit in the sand the cats try to bury you.

          • Bill Contrary

            I hope your avatar doesn’t catcall you!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Catcall myself? What an intriguing concept. Silently or aloud?

          • Bill Contrary

            I don’t know. Stop looking at me cat.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You don’t know much.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Now that is funny.

          • Bill Contrary

            : )

          • fiona64

            You are so ugly when you sit in the sand the cats try to bury you.

            I seriously LOL’d at that, BTW.

          • catseye

            My kitty just LOL’d at that. <|;-P

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I love cats.

          • Arekushieru

            Again, that is NOT what we are talking about. After all, as YOU have said, Amanda brought Lewak up at Slate. Obviously SHE believes they exist. Now, tell me, what else COULD we have been saying all this EFFING time? …I’ll wait….

    • lady_black

      I someone kissed me without consent, I would be angry. There are boundaries that you just don’t cross. Kissing someone without consent is battery. As far as opening doors, that’s something people should do for other people, regardless of gender. I have been known to break into a run to open doors for people on crutches or with a walker or wheelchair because I know how difficult it can be to juggle those obstacles. Furthermore, one of my pet peeves is when the person ahead of me allows the door to slam shut just as I’m reaching for it. That’s thoughtless and RUDE, and it’s unnecessary. And catcalling is rude, cowardly and childish… as is ANY public comment about another person’s physical appearance. SOMEONE here appears to lack ‘home training,’ and it isn’t me.

      • Bill Contrary

        Well you’re responding to comments from my girlfriend. I think her rationale was that kissing without consent isn’t right, but she also doesn’t think it’s that bad, and perhaps doesn’t think it should be criminal. And her statement about opening doors was that she actually enjoys women being treated “special” due to their femininity. I personally open doors for everyone, but especially women – because my Mother (and Father) valued that social custom (of opening doors for women) and expected me to do so.

        • fiona64

          No one here has said catcalling should be criminal. Christ on a goddamned bicycle.

          It’s sexual harassment, though, whether you like it or not.

          • Bill Contrary

            But sexual harassment IS a crime, isn’t it? I can’t really follow. “No one says catcalling should be criminal, just sexual harassment.” Nevermind that sexual harassment is already criminal? I’m totally confused. You can’t have it both ways. If you say it’s a crime, and managed to convince me it’s a crime, how can it then not be criminal?

            But if that looks willfully obtuse – let me re-iterate what I was saying: There are reasons why sexual harassment crimes generally require “severity or pervasiveness”. That’s because at some point it’s de minimis and you’re simply infringing on speech you find offensive. Harm to one’s pride is rarely actionable or protected at law and at some point that’s what we’re talking about.

          • Arekushieru

            Which is NOT what we’re discussing, here. Why do you THINK it is men who do the majority of the harassing? And why do you THINK it is women who are the majority of the ones harassed? If this were absolutely about infringing on someone’s speech, then there wouldn’t be a target for this kind of thing, ESPECIALLY a target that is ALREADY marginalized and minimized.

            You do realize that rape is a crime, so to speak, but not necessarily criminal? In order for it to be criminal, someone has to be charged and convicted. Thanks.

          • Bill Contrary

            No, you are wrong. You sound like my Evidence professor in law school. Something is “criminal” if there is a criminal law against it. Where’s the so-called feminist attorney here to correct you?

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, really, if you rape someone you are automatically a criminal? Wow, didn’t know that.

          • Arekushieru

            There are such laws against rape. But not all rape is criminal. Thanks.

          • fiona64

            The difference between workplace harassment and street harassment has been explained to you already. Several times. Workplace harassment is a crime.

            It’s not my fault that you are too stupid to understand the difference.

            And stop with the gaslighting.

          • lady_black

            Actually workplace harassment is a tort, not a crime. More specifically, it’s a tort if employers allow it to go on.

          • Bill Contrary

            Gaslighting again? What kind of lighting do you prefer? Track lighting?

          • lady_black

            No sexual harassment is not a crime. It violates every employer’s rules, and they can be sued for allowing it. Sexual harassment is a tort. You ARE confused. Please look up the difference between crime and tort, and understand some actions can constitute both a crime and a tort. Sexual harassment isn’t one of those things.

          • cjvg

            Oh it is not the speech I find offensive, do it all you want in the privacy of your home. It is directing it at women who did not ask for your “compliments” and who finds your “compliments” unwanted and harassment.

            You have been beating that free speech thing to death, time to put an end to that ridiculous non argument! There is this teeny tiny little detail you conveniently ignore; “The right to free speech does not include the right to an audience of your choice! “

          • Arekushieru

            EXACTLY, CJVG. You said it SO much better than I could!

          • cjvg

            thank you, you are not to shabby yourself with words!

        • Jennifer Starr

          Your imaginary ‘girlfriend’ appears to be as idiotic as you are.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Anyone who kisses me without consent might find themselves with a black eye. Just a friendly warning.

        • lady_black

          Battery is a crime, buddy. Whether it’s a punch, a kiss, or grabbing someone’s arm to take their blood pressure without consent. I don’t care what your immature gf thinks. That’s he law. Kudos on opening doors for everyone. That’s what you’re supposed to do.

        • cjvg

          You have already established that your girlfriend has judgment issues probably due to her self esteem issues.
          What unwanted sexual action does she draw the line at?

          Should fondling without consent be criminal according to her?, how about ass grabbing? boob grabbing ? stopping a woman from walking away? following her home? persistent unwanted phone calling? telling everyone she is your girlfriend and entering her house uninvited during her birthday? Are there any age limits under which she does consider it a crime when done to a young(er) woman?

          Tell me at what point is any action done to a woman without her consent a crime?

    • cjvg

      Well that explains why she is with you. You have already pointed out that she has very poor judgment and likes dating abusive men.
      Of course she must be right, after all she agreed with you and that means she must be right!

      I guess all these websites and internet complaints of women and girls listing exactly how they were catcalled the last time it happened or the worst one yet must be lying, and completely fabricating it just because they wished someone said that to them. And then there is the fact that MOST women clearly state they do not like it, is just because they are confused and must learn to appreciate it.

      So sorry that you are dating an exhibitionist who’s self esteem is dependent on how much crude sexual innuendo her appearance can elicit. She should work on that, maybe then she can stop dating abusers.

      • Arekushieru

        And, yet, he doesn’t think that being forced to accept street harassment simply because as a woman you are the one who experiences it daily is NOT misogyny. Wow, this guy’s short two bricks of a load.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    The Asexual must not make rules for those with normal sexuality. It never turns out well.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Which god are you talking about? Jehovah is a proabort. Hosea 13:16. Abortion is a sacrament.

  • Ella Warnock

    So make all the personal choices you want to make; you’re more than free to do so. Just don’t worry overly much about the ones I make – not that you or your god have any control over it anyway.

  • Arekushieru

    As opposed to the GREED of someone else FORCING (which is not sacrifice, btw) you to give up your life or ideals for someone else? As opposed to the SELFISH indignant gratification that some feel at having others live the way they wish to live? Yup, that doesn’t apply to those who support comprehensive sex ed, so I can say we are living in a world that celebrates those things you mentioned.

    Stds, unintended pregnancies, suicide, substance abuse and domestic violence tend to go up in misogynistic cultures that YOU support. And lack of comprehensive sex ed, specifically, leads to unintended pregnancies and stds and, if there WAS such a thing, ‘post-abortion syndrome’, something that YOUR ilk supports with their abstinence-only agenda.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling
  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I know lots of women who have had abortions, legal and illegal. My mother had an abortion when it was illegal. I never met a woman with ‘post abortion syndrome.’
    I have heard forced birth cultists like you describe this syndrome before many times. I think these women might take Buddha’s advice = Think about other things.

  • fiona64

    Fiona, don’t know where you get your information from, but check other sources.

    I don’t need sources from beyond RealityLand, thanks.

    Here are just one of the many sources that prove you wrong: http://www.ansirh.org/research/late-abortion/countering-misinformation/mental-health-abortion.php

  • goatini

    America is not a theocracy.

  • goatini

    No such thing as “post-abortion syndrome”.

    And Scabby Johnson is a lying, grifting opportunist.

  • fiona64

    Someone in this discussion, whose screen name rhymes with Mill Ronfairy, could learn something from this article: http://www.autostraddle.com/helpful-advice-for-talking-to-men-who-think-misandry-is-a-thing-170632/

    Pro-tip to that individual: Calling you out on your misogyny does not mean that the person calling you out is a misandrist. It means you’re behaving like a jerk toward women.

    Yurvelcum.

    • Bill Contrary

      I am disagreeing with you. Apparently unless I agree with you, I am a jerk to women. I don’t accept that definition of “jerk”. Sorry. I don’t think misandry is as widespread as misogny – but nevertheless your tone with me was at times misandrist. But more to the point, it was abusive.

      • Arekushieru

        No, a disagreement over what to have for DINNER does not make someone a jerk. A disagreement over whether or not you can treat WOMEN as dinner (meat) and coming down on the SIDE of those who WANT to, makes you a JERK. Seriously, get a freaking CLUE.

        • Bill Contrary

          I’m on the side of the women who want to be catcalled. And the women who might want to catcall themselves. Too bad you’re not.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. I’m on the side of women who do OR don’t want to be catcalled. YOU are on the side of the MEN who want to do the catcalling. So, please stop changing the goalposts. You have been told OVER and OVER that this was not the POINT of either AMANDA’S commentary or the posters on the board. Yet when it behooves you you will change the goalposts to meet your given standards of those who are catcalling while at the same time you will change the goalposts when it behooves you to meet your given standards of those (whom you, a male, approve) are being catcalled. Y’know with all that expenditure of energy you spend dancing around like that, you might want to get some help with that.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Given what I’ve seen of your behavior here, Bill, to call you a ‘jerk’ would be an understatement.

      • fiona64

        No, Bill. You are not a jerk because you “disagree” with me.

        You are a jerk because you support sexual harassment and rape culture.

        Which, I think, you’ve been told half a dozen times or so by now.

        Are you developmentally delayed, or something?

        And, again, stop with the gaslighting.

        Like the article says: I don’t hate men. In fact, I don’t even hate you. But I sure as hell don’t like you very much.

        • Bill Contrary

          Catcalling is not sexual harassment or rape culture, because it is neither sexual harassment or rape. That’s a hard one, isn’t it? Why do you support feminist hyperbole culture?

          • Arekushieru

            If it is not sexual harassment, then why do YOU insist that men are merely giving a frank and open discussion of a sexual nature by catcalling? Don’t remember what you type, either? Rape apologist. Rape culture ALSO includes anything that contributes to society’s view that women are property and should be available to men at any time in any way whenever they want, just that they mustn’t be too OBVIOUS about it. I’m pretty sure you believe that, too. Given that your automatic ASSumption is that any women who walks in public is being obvious about it.

          • Bill Contrary

            All this “property” stuff? Huh? What does that have to do with a sexual compliment? Are you a socialist or something?

          • fiona64

            FOAD.

  • Arekushieru

    Oh, Christ, here we go again with the dishonest conflation of ADULT eagles with human FETUSES. Look, lady, eagles are/were an endangered species. If people like YOU had your way, though, women would be an endangered population of humans. After all, pregnancy is the THIRD leading cause of death for women WORLDWIDE. Also, when using an analogy, make sure you use the PROPER correlations. Eagles are comparable to human WOMEN, of course. Eagle eggs are comparable to human FETUSES. Do we restrict eagles’ (or any other non-human animal’s) ability to self-abort (because the majority, if not ALL, other animals can self abort)? No? Then we are NOT protecting eagles more than humans. However, YOUR ilk would like to make human women LESS THAN another animal, by denying them the same rights as every other human and making them nothing more than breeding livestock..

    Fetuses are not persons.

    Also, you know what IS a real medical condition? PPD. Look up Andrea Yates. Five children dead precisely because of people like YOU.

  • Jennifer Starr

    The definition is in the name, Donna.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Are you actually insinuating that poor and minority women are not capable of making their own reproductive decisions? How very racist of you.

  • cjvg
  • cjvg

    Nice judging you do there, does your god not command you to leave that to him?
    Sure you can choose, but I’m going to call you evil if you do not choose what I tell you to choose! Just a lovely Christian you are throw those stones, throw them!

    Why be intolerant of choice. Name calling is not intolerance right donna?!

  • fiona64

    Since the poster whose name rhymes with Mill Ronfairy is sometimes confused by words, I thought I would share a picture that is quite apropos of our discussion: https://www.facebook.com/officiallacigreen/photos/a.284745684212.144562.221909329212/10152470445524213/?type=1&relevant_count=1

    In case this doesn’t work, it’s a two-panel cartoon. The first, labeled “Friendly Compliment,” shows a guy waving to a woman and saying “Hey, you look nice today!” Her reply? “Oh, thanks!” The second, labeled “Harassment,” shows the same guy and woman. Guy: “Hey! You’ve got nice tits! You single?” Woman, looking horrified: “Oh, uh, thanks.”

    • fiona64

      You all will have to excuse me if I’m a trifle punchy; I’ve been awake since 3:20 AM, when an earthquake about 90 miles away shook our house. Argh.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I heard about that just now on the news–sending (((((((hugs)))))))).

        • fiona64

          Thank you. So far, all of my friends have checked in as okay. Sadly, the historic library and Chinese laundry buildings in Napa were destroyed. One of the highways is closed until it can be thoroughly inspected for damage, and there are some power outages. A friend who is the night manager at a grocery near the epicenter posted pics of the broken jars all over the floor. It’ll be a little bit before the full damage assessment, of course.

          • catseye

            I’m a bit north of Napa, in Portland, OR. I have some terrifying memories of our Spring Break Quake. I’m glad you’re OK; earthquakes are scary for sure.

          • fiona64

            I’m originally from PDX. The first earthquake I experienced was up there, when I was about 12 (that’s been a while now).

          • goatini

            We’d just gone to City Winery (former Opera House) a few weeks ago.

          • fiona64

            It’s mind-boggling how quickly these can go when they’ve already withstood so much. :-(

      • goatini

        I went back to bed after confirming no power or water outage, no car alarms went off, no police sirens started up. But it was a freaky several seconds there!

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Glad you are okay. Earthquake sounds truly scary. Such a shame about the historic buildings.
      I like this cartoon.
      http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/2012/11/artists-give-me-such-woody-2.html

    • cjvg

      Well that is because that women like that just don’t understand how complimentary that really is.
      Remember according to billy he read about one woman liking it (and we are all the same just like little drones, not people like men are) and his girlfriend said so, and otherwise she is just jealous because (other then this ones) she never gets catcalled or is just a miserable person. Just mansplaining it too you

      • catseye

        Its only “girlfriends” EVER, are Rosie Palm and her 5 daughters.

  • catseye

    Do you work in one of those fake “clinics”?