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On Abortion, Pro-Choice Is the Compromise Position

Sam Sedaei's picture

The Bush administration is scrambling to issue a number of anti-abortion rights executive orders before leaving office. This is of course just a tip of the iceberg when it comes to all the hostile actions that the current administration has taken to make choice and family planning harder for women and families throughout the country.

The mainstream media and politicians -- including President Elect Barack Obama -- have presented abortion as an issue on which the country is evenly divided between two camps -- pro-life and pro-choice -- and the only way to deal with the issue is to come up with a grand compromise. However, a thorough analysis of the two platforms demonstrates that the pro-choice stance is the compromise position and the next administration must not negotiate away abortion rights.

One can explore this reality by looking at the specific list of choice-related issues that the Obama administration will face, and why he must support the pro-choice stance on them. The questions that the next administration has to answer are as follows:

-Whether to reverse Bush's newly implemented "Right of Conscience" view.
-Whether to overturn regulations such as one that makes fetuses eligible for health-care coverage under the Children's Health Insurance Program.
-Whether to cut funding for sexual abstinence programs, and whether to increase funding for comprehensive sex education programs that include discussion of birth control.
-Whether to allow federal health plans to pay for abortions.

But at the heart of these questions and the Supreme Court's decision on Roe v. Wade that started this 3-decade long debate on abortion is a central question: Is a fetus a human being?

If it is, it must possess all the characteristics of a human being, not the least of which is independent biological viability. Merriam-Webster defines viable as "capable of existence and development as an independent unit." According to The Endowment for Human Development, by 21-22 weeks (5 months and one week) after fertilization, the fetus's lungs gain some ability to breathe air, and this is considered the age of viability as "survival outside of the womb becomes possible for some fetuses." However, the fetus's dependence on the umbilical cord continues well into the third trimester of the pregnancy. While there may be other elements on which one can rely to determine the viability of a fetus, the concept of independent viability remains the central characteristic of any living organism, including human beings.

Science clearly establishes that an unborn or unhatched vertebrate cannot be considered to be a human even after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind - hence the term "fetus" to refer to all vertebrates at this stage. However, there continue to be millions of Americans who -- because of their church's teachings, genuine belief or as an excuse to control women's health decisions - matter-of-factly claim that a fetus is a human being while relying on no scientific or empirical arguments.

But even if one allows for some subjective discretion in defining the point at which a fetus turns into a human, the pro-choice position (one taken by the Supreme Court during Roe v. Wade in 1973) presents itself not as the liberal position, but the compromise position. What's important to note about the ruling is that while it did not declare abortion unconstitutional or force the viewpoint of the anti-choice camp over the pro-choice camp, it also did not force anti-choice Americans to accept the biological and scientific definition of what constitutes a human being. The ruling rather allowed those who believe a fetus is a human being to keep their fetuses and carry their offspring and those who believe a fetus is not a human being to choose whether they are socially, economically and emotionally ready to have a child.

But that was not good enough for most ardent anti-choice advocates. Since 1973, they have organized themselves around the ultimate goal of overturning Roe v. Wade and force their nonscientific and subjective definition of human being on everyone else. But in the mean time, they have also done what they could to make getting abortion as difficult as possible for women. Their efforts have ranged from violent means -- including bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors that perform abortions (ironic since the criminals commit this in the name of saving "life") -- to lobbying state and federal governments to take legislative and executive action to limit the accessibility of abortion. They use sensational language in making their arguments -- such as calling pro-choice citizens "murderers" and showing graphic images of abortion procedures to appeal to people's emotions so they no longer have to argue their point based on logic.

So how should President Elect Obama address the questions above in the context of existing national debate on abortion? Let's review the questions in greater detail.

Should Obama reverse Bush's newly implemented "Right of Conscience" view?
In the eleventh hour of his lame duck presidency, George Bush is trying to establish a "Right of Conscience," allowing medical practitioners and staff to refuse to participate in any practice they object to on moral grounds, including abortion, birth control and other health care as well. But think about the implication of opening the door of having the doctors decide what operations to conduct and what not to conduct based on personal moral beliefs; where would it stop? What if a doctor decides that heart transplants are immoral? Should she be allowed to willfully allow the patient to die? What if a doctor believes delivering a child is immoral because the world is over-populated, or that as long as gays do not have the right to marry and adopt children, justice is best served by preventing everyone from having children? Would these anti-choice advocates be willing to accept the risk that this doctor may be the only doctor on call when they take their pregnant loved one to hospital? The fact is that anti-choice advocates only wish to defend a doctor's "right" to refuse service based on moral objections if those objections fall in line with their anti-choice agenda.

The United States is a country of laws. One cannot drive through a red light if one morally opposes traffic lights because the laws are not written only to protect she who must follow it, but protect others from her actions. For the same reason, doctors are not legislators and have no right to impose their subjective moral view on everyone else. If a physician believes that his career choice forces him to compromise his moral beliefs, they are free to pursue other career options. Or alternatively, he can try to lobby the Congress or the American public to change the laws he opposes. But those physicians who decide to remain in the field must be legally obligated to follow the laws, whether they like it or not. The "Right of Conscience" view is an action that President Elect Obama needs to reverse immediately after taking office.

Should Obama overturn regulations such as one that makes fetuses eligible for health-care coverage under the Children's Health Insurance Program?
In order for one to be a child, one has to be a human being, and human beings are biologically independent and viable organisms, which fetuses are not. Therefore based on the discussion above, a fetus cannot be considered a child, and therefore should not be eligible for coverage under federal health insurance programs. And it is quite ironic that the Bush administration is interested in simultaneously blocking the passage of Children's Health Insurance Program and advocating for coverage of fetuses under the program. President Elect Obama cannot allow anti-choice advocates to play politics with important programs and reignite the social culture wars of the past in order to make statements and advance their narrow agenda.

Men's Rights in Abortion
It is important to discuss one aspect of abortion that President Elect Obama must bring into the national dialogue, and that involves a situation in which the right of a man must be protected. Pro-choice advocates rightly point out that as long as a fetus is not biologically viable, the woman carrying the fetus must have the exclusive right to decide whether or not to carry her pregnancy. If both the man and woman agree on whether to have the baby, there is no complication in the decision-making. If the man wants the baby but the woman does not, the man must respect the decision of the woman. But what if a married woman decides to have the baby after finding out about her pregnancy, but her husband does not? Should a man be forced to fulfill child support and maintenance obligations for the child as required under Family Law? While the right to decide whether or not to have a baby exclusively belongs to the woman, the man should have the legal right within the first few months of the woman's pregnancy to choose and declare whether or not he accepts the financial obligations as they are required of the father under Family Law.

Should Obama cut funding for sexual abstinence programs and increase funding for comprehensive sex education programs that include discussion of birth control?
The goal of sexual abstinence program is to educate young people about how to prevent unwanted pregnancy and avoid sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). For that reason, teachers cannot teach their students that abstinence is the only way to prevent unwanted pregnancy, because it is not. There are many ways to have control over whether and when to have a child, including contraception, safe sex practices, sexual orientation and abortion. While the most comprehensive research done on the impact of abstinence-only programs showed that they had no visible impact in terms of delaying a teenager's sexual activities, latest data shows that nearly $175 million of federal spending continues to go into these programs every year. In comparison, teen pregnancy in the United States continues to be twice that in many European countries where comprehensive sex education is a core part of the public school curriculum. In the meantime, more than 8 out of 10 Americans support education of both abstinence and other methods to prevent unwanted pregnancy and STDs. As part of his short-term agenda, President Elect Obama must push for the channeling of nearly all abstinence-only education funding to comprehensive programs that have both the support of the American public and have proven to be more effective.

Should Obama allow federal health plans to pay for abortions?
Even President Clinton who supported the right to choose did not allow any federal funds to be used to cover abortion costs. His argument was that he did not want to use federal funds that had come not just from pro-choice citizens, but anti-choice ones as well, toward an operation that did not have the moral support of all citizens. While the argument sounds reasonable, one cannot help but wonder why Presidents who use these arguments do not apply the same logic to other policies of the federal government. It is safe to say that most of the tax-paying citizens in this country have a moral objection to the continuation of the Iraq War. So why should they be forced to continue to support this war through their taxes (which by the way is leading to the killing of actual human beings)? The notion that anti-choice citizens should have the right not to have their taxes used under state and federal programs for an operation that is as legal and legitimate as any has no logical justification. President Elect Obama must make sure that as long as abortion remains legal, women have access to it. But as for any other operation, limits should be placed to prevent abuse.

President Elect Obama has presented himself as a president ready to compromise on important issues. But as he proceeds through the first few months of his presidency, he cannot treat abortion as another issue on which to negotiate. Instead, he has a unique opportunity to use his political capital to fundamentally reframe the debate and permanently establish one important fact: abortion is as legal and legitimate of a medical operation as any, and the government needs to do what it can to help women get educated about it and have easy and safe access to it.

This post first appeared on The Huffington Post.


. . . . .
43 comments

However, there continue to be millions of American who -- because of their church's teachings, genuine belief or as an excuse to control women's health decisions - matter-of-factly claim that a fetus is a human being while relying on no scientific or empirical arguments.

 

I'll give you credit -- at least you understand that some of us who believe that fetuses deserve to be recognized as full members of our society do so out of "genuine belief" rather than assuming that we are all motivated by a desire to control women's uteruses or blindly following the dictates of our religious leaders.

 

I would suggest that there's no scientific argument sufficiently persuasive to determine whether or not fetuses are persons.  Likewise there is no Biblical argument and no constitutional argument.  You can't put your finger on any text and assert that the argument is resolved.  We, as a society, will draw our 'circle of inclusion' as widely or as tightly as our conception of humanity is wide or tight.

 

The trend, during the past ten thousand years of civilization, has been to widen the circle.  Will we continue to widen that circle to include the unborn?  I hope we do -- in fact, I expect that ultimately we will; but before we do we'll have to develop a knack for discussing these issues in a respectful and productive manner. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on January 6, 2009 - 10:08pm.

Paul,

 

I think you have hit on an issue which is central here....there is no consensus on this issue, period, whether theologically, legally, or biologically.

The potential of life is very different than the existence of a human being, whether we are talking about biological or social constructs.

 

As others have pointed out in great detail elsewhere on the site in recent days, sperm, eggs, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses all have potential for life.  In these conversations, we are never really talking about viable fetuses except in explosive and misleading public conversations about so-called partial  birth abortions.  What we are usually talking about in the public sphere is contraceptive action and early-term abortion.  Taking these conversations to their extreme leaves us with nothing: The Catholic Church does not even support the use of condoms, which clearly prevent fertilization in the first place.  

 

There is vast diversity of moral and ethical tradition and opinion on the "status" of and potential for life of a zygote, embryo, and a fetus at one stage of development versus another.  It is the very diversity and disagreement that exists not only in the abstract but as applied in the real lives of real people on a daily basis that requires us to protect the right of choice.

 

You and I do not agree even on the most basic tenets of preventing pregnancy in the first place and we certainly do not agree on allowing people to make choices, as the saying goes, for themselves in conjunction with their providers and their own god or religious tradition.  The Church posits, but I do not agree that people should not be able to use condoms, IUDs, birth control pills, injectables, or whatever other methods they should choose to control their fertility.  I also do not either support forcing anyone to use contraception to prevent a pregnancy at any point in time.  That is the essence of choice in a pluralistic society governed by evidence and human rights.

 

There is profound disagreement and therefore no means of legislating away these choices without coercing people into accommodating one religious or moral position over another.

Given the extent to which Catholics alone use methods of birth control and seek out abortion services, it is quite clear that the application of rigid moral tenets does not work in the real lives of real people.

 

Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, RH Reality Check on January 7, 2009 - 9:23am.

I think you have hit on an issue which is central here....there is no consensus on this issue, period, whether theologically, legally, or biologically.

 

My point is a little different than that.  While we all would agree that there's no consensus (no surprise there) I assert that it's pointless to attempt to reach consensus by referencing scientific, religious or constitutional texts.  We have minds that enable us to respect the personhood of the unborn but our minds don't compel us to respect the personhood of the unborn.  It's a matter of choice.  Our society is currently ambivalent about the matter and the ambivalence is painful to all of us.  This ambivalence won't last for another million years.  Eventually we will choose who gets to be included when we use the phrase 'member of society' -- but that choice can't be forced.

 

The ambivalence won't be resolved by simple-minded arguments.  It will be resolved by respectful and productive discussion.

 

Our species has been around for at least a million years, and for 99% of that time infanticide was accepted and commonplace.  It's only been since the dawn of civilization that people have decided that newborns are actually people. Our minds aren't compelled to think that way -- and we didn't change our minds about the issue because of any advance in science.  As a matter of fact even with today's science there's no compelling reason to respect the lives of newborns.  Things like 'consciousness' and 'identity' aren't fully developed in newborns -- but we all CHOOSE to respect their lives.  I suspect that, in recent millennia, people started to identify with newborns and see something of themselves in the newborn.

 

From my point of view, I think it's likely that people will eventually see something of themselves in the unborn and determine that respecting unborn life humanizes them.  We will conclude that the advantages of being humanized by our respect of young people who are what we once were will outweigh the inconveniences of protecting them.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on January 7, 2009 - 5:07pm.
Protecting the unborn against their mothers seems to me to be not only intrusive, but disrespectful. How is it anyone's business to interfere with such a personal decision as to whether or not to have an abortion? Even if you believe that abortion is murder, how is your opinion more valuable than that of the pregnant mother? Most people are reluctant to interfere with someone intent on murder for fear of their own safety. But I'm sure your argument would be that it is our moral obligation to do so. But assuming that kind of responsibiltiy for someone else means that you are also obliged take responsibility for them. What we see, however, is that in communities where abortion is demonized, there is also a reluctance to vote for measures that would make life easier for a single mother. I don't agree that one's humanity rests with respect for the unborn. One's humanity is tested by respect for the human that must confront an unwanted pregnancy. Obliterating her autonomy for our self righteousness is the ultimate put down.
Submitted by MAGGIE CONSTAN on January 14, 2009 - 9:42am.
Protecting the unborn against their mothers seems to me to be not only intrusive, but disrespectful. How is it anyone's business to interfere with such a personal decision as to whether or not to have an abortion? Even if you believe that abortion is murder, how is your opinion more valuable than that of the pregnant mother? Most people are reluctant to interfere with someone intent on murder for fear of their own safety. But I'm sure your argument would be that it is our moral obligation to do so. But assuming that kind of responsibiltiy for someone else means that you are also obliged take responsibility for them. What we see, however, is that in communities where abortion is demonized, there is also a reluctance to vote for measures that would make life easier for a single mother. I don't agree that one's humanity rests with respect for the unborn. One's humanity is tested by respect for the human that must confront an unwanted pregnancy. Obliterating her autonomy for our self righteousness is the ultimate put down.
Submitted by MAGGIE CONSTAN on January 14, 2009 - 9:44am.
The medical and scientific communities overwhelmingly agree that in humans, life begins at conception. The only reason someone would deny this is if they had never or insufficiently researched the matter, had only accessed erroneous information, or was choosing to believe that, which to him or her, is most appealing. Pro-choice groups rarely even debate the issue of when life begins anymore because it has been established beyond refute. Instead, their arguments are most often centered on the definitions of such terms as “viability,” “human being,” “person,” and “personhood,” which are philosophical in nature and therefore scientifically indeterminable. Arguing over terms like these and their assigned concepts is useless other than to further the rhetoric of debate and circumvent the core issue of life. The conception of life is similar to the starting of a fire. Life, like fire, begins suddenly and continues so long as it is fueled. Just as a match is struck and fire ensues, so similarly begins a human life at the fertilization of an egg. And just as the burning of a match can be extinguished, so also can a human life be extinguished, by cutting off its fuel source. Abortion is the extinguishing of a new life. Beginning your article by degrading the status of the life you are about to argue against by calling it a "fetus" and claiming it is not a "human being" because those who believe it is have no scientific or empirical basis for their belief is deceptive. It's deceptive, because neither is there sufficient scientific or empirical evidence to support your claim that the unborn child is not a "human being." Nevertheless, you act as if there is and then commence to present questions of what Barack Obama should do based on your opinion. The reasoning you are attempting to use here based on "viability," would not only exclude many of the young and weak in our society from the "personhood" club, but is in reality, nothing more than a scientifically unsupported attempt to mask the core issue of the taking of an innocent human life. Those of us who truly believe, based on the overwhelming scientific and medical evidence, that abortion is the taking of a human life, could never agree to "common ground" or an acceptable "compromise." The unwillingness of some people to accept abortion as the taking of a human life is mostly a matter of selfish convenience and self-imposed ignorance. It is, quite simply, rationalization for the fulfillment of personal desire. One Dove AbortionAbout.com - Against the Holocaust of Our Unborn Children
Submitted by One Dove on January 7, 2009 - 5:48am.
actually, as was discussed in another column, the beginning of life isn't like a fire, as your example above illustrates. both the sperm and the egg are already alive well before conception (otherwise, why would sperm banks spend such time and money taking care of their product? because dead sperm cannot fertilize anything).

so, while conception is an important moment in the life span of a human being, it's not really some magical moment where something not alive is suddenly given life.

the article above is all about compromise, and the fact that what we're fighting for here IS compromise. i don't understand why that is such a hard thing for the pro-life community to accept. no one will ever force you to get an abortion if you don't want one, yet you have no problem with the idea of forcing others you have never even met to go through with a major life event they don't want, regardless of the reasons they don't want to.

Submitted by Anonymous on January 7, 2009 - 10:58am.

Sam,

 

you are exactly right.  There is no common ground that can lead to negotiating away the right to choose to end abortion, or to use contraception for that matter.  There is no acceptable position that curtails, ultimately, the right of a woman to choose whether or not to bring a pregnancy to term.

 

This, I fear, is something that we need to be very careful about in using the term "common ground."  

 

I welcome strongly the effort to bring different groups together to support stronger and more vigorous efforts to ensure universal access to contraception, comprehensive sexuality and reproductive health education in the interest in ensuring that people can exercise both their rights to a safe and healthy sexual life, the their responsibilty to protect themselves from unintended outcomes of sexual activity.  But at the end of the day we will never eliminate contraceptive failure, accidents, rape or other circumstances in which women will seek out abortions, so unfettered access to safe, affordable abortion services is a critical aspect of the entire effort.

 

You raise another point, that of the rights of men, which I think needs more discussion and exploration.  

 

I wanted to thank you for this excellent piece.

 

Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, RH Reality Check on January 7, 2009 - 9:28am.
If Man gives life, then Man should be able to extend his life to any number he/ she chooses. Not so, we cannot will ourselves to live to 90 years and it will be so why? We can truly control what is ours, not that which we were made temporary stewards of - life. We participate in the production of life and God is the author / creator of life. Thus we can choose not to participate in God's act of creation. Icannot take life away. As soon as God decides a human being is, that human person is.Life as a human begins. This is my belief and hence why ,I value the life of my fellow human being and his /her dignity as a fetus of any age or as a child, adolescent or adult. Allow me to adopt this beautiful child of God.
Submitted by Gabriel Ferdinand on January 7, 2009 - 9:51am.
Not everybody believes in your invisible sky fairy, swee'pea.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 3:27pm.
There are currently something like 100,000 children in the US foster care system. How many of them are you adopting? How many have you adopted now? How many of your anti-choice friends have adopted a dozen or so? If so many people want to adopt these beautiful children of God (even the ones that aren't perfect white little babies), why are there still 100,000 children in the system waiting for loving homes? When every last one of those children has been adopted, then come talk about how much you value the lives of every human being.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 4:56pm.
I can't understand why this is not a separation of church and state issue. Under our Constitution, no one has the right to use the law to enforce their religious beliefs on everyone. That is the reason why choice is the middle ground. The law shouldn't be able to force a woman to have an abortion or to not have an abortion - and viability draws the line. Isn't that what Roe v Wade decided? To me it was a good and balanced decision in a country comprised of diverse beliefs and subject to the rule of law.
Submitted by JoshuasGrandma on January 7, 2009 - 12:33pm.

If a law is legislated through means which is not logical then the law itself needs to be corrected - this is what will eventually happen with Roe v. Wade. Allow me to elaborate: 

 

January 22, 1973 by MR. JUSTICE BLACKMUN [Below was taken from the Court's Opinion].

 

"Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

 

Then don't speculate...!!!???

 

His error was that he set aside from his decision-making process the question of when life begins. He claimed, in the opinion of the court, that is wasn't his responsibility to determine when life begins but rather the world's medical, philosophical and theological world's responsibility and because they disagreed he wasn't going to "...speculate as to the answer." In doing this, he couldn't possibly make a fully informed decision about whether or not someone has a right to terminate what "might" be a human being.

Think about it - Blackmun was saying that because the argument of when life begins was/is too controversial that he wasn't going to decide this -- so he set it aside stating, "...at this point in the development of man's knowledge..." we don't have enough information to make this decision. If you don't know when life begins then you have a duty to error on the side of life. To do anything else is to "possibly" commit murder.

Imagine you are a police officer testing your new state-issued weapon at the firing range and you are hitting the target and doing a great job...  Then someone taps you on the shoulder and says, "Hey...there is a 50/50 chance that there is a human being directly behind that target your shooting at!" What do you think that police officer has a duty to do?

Submitted by Truth on January 8, 2009 - 2:12pm.

... viability draws the line ... 

 

Viability draws a line, so does conception, so does implantation, so does the differentiation of cells in the nervous system.  So, for that matter, does the ability to walk or to talk or physical maturity.  We human beings are capable of drawing lines wherever we like.

 

My observation is that the more humane a society becomes, the more willing it is to protect the weak and the vulnerable.  Is this a religious belief?  I suppose it is because many religious people make that observation -- but so do many people who have no use for religion.

 

How weak and vulnerable does a person have to be before we decide it's too much trouble to protect him/her?  You may say it's a "religious" question, but it's a question that won't be swept under the rug. 

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on January 7, 2009 - 5:26pm.
How weak and vulnerable does a person have to be before we decide it's too much trouble to protect him/her? You may say it's a "religious" question, but it's a question that won't be swept under the rug.

This is a red herring.  The question of abortion has nothing to do with an embryo's weakness or vulnerability.  One could argue that a tapeworm is weak and vulnerable because it can't survive outside its host's body...does that mean I don't have the right to kill it?  An embryo and a tapeworm have similar sentience, and they are each a similar nuisance.

 

I don't see why it's so difficult for pro-lifers to understand this...you can't compartmentalize the abortion debate so we're only talking about fetuses.  Abortion necessarily involves women, and it's misleading and demeaning to erase us from the discussion.   We can go on and on about the qualities of a fetus that you find so charming (common examples are "innocence," "humanity," "vulnerability," etc.) but that ultimately means nothing.  Besides being emotive tripe, it distracts from the real issue: denying a woman reproductive freedom is denying her her personal autonomy.

 

I realize it's difficult to keep every facet of the abortion debate in mind when we're discussing it on the internet, but I really think it is a glaring omission to talk about fetuses and only fetuses. ("How weak and vulnerable does a person have to be before we decide it's too much trouble to protect him/her?")  It's not about refusing to protect the "weak and vulnerable."  It would only be so if fetuses did not necessarily live inside female bodies.

Submitted by pcwhite on January 7, 2009 - 7:20pm.

I realize it's difficult to keep every facet of the abortion debate in mind when we're discussing it on the internet

 

Exactly right!  In that post I wasn't "keeping in mind" the issue of a mother's freedom and autonomy.  As it happens, I was focused on JoshuasGrandma's contention that 'viability' is the best place to "draw the line" between fetuses who get legal protection and those who don't. There were two points I wanted to make.  The first was that 'viability' isn't the only possibility for where we draw the line.  The second was that whether you choose to draw the line at viability or select some other marker you'll end up with an arrangement where the people who are weaker and more vulnerable will be denied protection and the people who are stronger and more independent will be granted protection.

 

As you point out, there's a lot more to the abortion debate than that; but let me respond to your comment on that narrow issue.  You say "The question of abortion has nothing to do with an embryo's weakness or vulnerability" but under the current arrangement it does.  It's not legal to abort a fetus who is seven months along, but it is legal to abort a fetus who is three months along.  The difference is that the three month old is weaker and more vulnerable.  An infant is even stronger and more independent than either fetus but the infant has the most protection of them all.

 

So, "weakness and vulnerability" do come into play when we decide which people will have legal protection. 

 

On the larger point, you seem to be interested in getting me to express my views on a mother's freedom and autonomy and I'm happy to do that as well.

 

From my point of view the person who should make health care decisions for a competent adult is the competent adult him/herself; and the person who should make health care decisions for an unborn child is that child's mother.  As you will note, the name of my organization is Pro Life Catholics for Choice.  I'm not particularly hot on the idea of criminalizing abortion or, for that matter, of criminalizing any health care decision a mother makes for her unborn child.

 

Let me give you an example.  We all know that a mother's drinking and/or smoking is harmful to a developing fetus.  There are a lot of people who are concerned about public health who try very hard to discourage women from drinking or smoking while they're pregnant.  Practically every doctor in the country is supportive of the public education campaign to discourage smoking and drinking among the mothers of the unborn.

 

What I have never seen on this 'site, and what I don't expect to see, is a columnist who writes: "What is with these nosy moralizers who go around telling mothers that they can't drink or smoke?  If you don't like cigarettes, don't smoke.  If you don't like alcohol, don't drink -- but PULEEEZE don't tell other people what to do.  This is America, a woman can make up her own mind whether to drink or smoke.  To try to control her behavior is an affront to her freedom and personal autonomy." I challenge people to try to keep two ideas in mind at the same time.  We should want our medical establishment to advocate on the side of health and life even in instances where the person in charge of that health and life is inclined to make unhealthy decisions.  On the other hand we should want our legal establishment to be supportive of citizen's freedom and autonomy even though we know that people sometimes exercise their freedom and autonomy in ways that are contrary to health and life. Will there be conflicts?  Yes.  But I'm not going to apologize for the fact that I believe in encouraging mothers not to smoke or drink (even though I certainly wouldn't imprison mothers who do) and I'm not going to apologize for the fact that I believe in encouraging mothers not to abort (even though I certainly wouldn't imprison mothers who do.) What I hope for isn't so much a law forbidding abortion (such a law would certainly be flaunted so what good would it do?) but a situation where the medical establishment is as firm in its opposition to mothers' aborting as it currently is in its opposition to mothers' smoking and drinking.

 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on January 8, 2009 - 7:03pm.

This...

You say "The question of abortion has nothing to do with an embryo's weakness or vulnerability" but under the current arrangement it does. It's not legal to abort a fetus who is seven months along, but it is legal to abort a fetus who is three months along. The difference is that the three month old is weaker and more vulnerable. An infant is even stronger and more independent than either fetus but the infant has the most protection of them all. So, "weakness and vulnerability" do come into play when we decide which people will have legal protection.
...is the sound of somebody completely missing the point.

 

There are more differences than degree of weakness or vulnerability between fetuses and children, not the least of which being...the fact that a fetus thrives by parasitizing a woman and jeopadizing her health.   The vast majority of aborted conceptuses could not think or feel, either, again unlike children.  It is an extraordinarily weak argument to say that it is because of a fetus' "weakness and vulnerability" that it is singled out for termination.  Actually, it's not even correct to say that a fetus is more vulnerable than a newborn...have you ever met a newborn who could defend or even feed itself?  (Interestingly, a fetus may actually be less helpless than a newborn...it has the ability to secure a nutrient source for itself, and it has the protection of a woman's body that an infant does not.)

 

(Also, I just want to add that I didn't have a problem with the first paragraph of your original post.  I mostly agree with you on that.)

 

Hmm...looking back at my previous post, I see that I had a bit of a soapbox moment when I discussed how I resent how women are often erased from the discussion of abortion.  However, the point still stands...abortion cannot be separated from women themselves.  Abortion is not actually *about* killing fetuses, really, but ending *women's* pregnancies -- obviously, ending a pregnancy kills a fetus (/embryo, etc.), but it's a bit of a distortion to speak of abortion only in the terms of killing / saving fetuses.   To make this more clear...women don't have abortions because they so love killing innocent lives.  They have abortions because they don't want to be pregnant, for a myriad of legitimate reasons.  It touched a nerve when you said "How weak and vulnerable does a person have to be before we decide it's too much trouble to protect him/her?" because framing abortion solely around the issue of protecting fetuses completely disregards the fact that they're surrounded by...you know...women.  What is "too much trouble" for women is for them to face potentially life-threatening complications, suffer a decreased capacity to work and earn a living, and raise children they don't want -- all because some people think that embryos have souls.

 

As per pregnant women smoking and drinking, I agree that that is morally repugnant...but my personal viewpoint sidesteps the abortion connection because smoking / drinking / etc. during pregnancy damages the quality of life of a person who will actually be born and live to suffer.  An abortion does not.  This position might seem a little odd, but it does follow the same guiding principle: that is, something is only wrong if it causes suffering.  I realize you aren't interested in legislating controls on pregnant women smoking or drinking, but I'll just put in my two cents: passing laws that punish pregnant women for drinking etc. is the start of a slippery slope I don't want to see the country (mine or yours) go down.   There are any number of activities that endanger a fetus, from drinking coffee to eating a poor diet...are we going to pass laws against these things, too?

 

While I'm glad to see you have no interest in criminalizing abortion, some of your statements still trouble me. 

What I hope for isn't so much a law forbidding abortion (such a law would certainly be flaunted so what good would it do?) but a situation where the medical establishment is as firm in its opposition to mothers' aborting as it currently is in its opposition to mothers' smoking and drinking.

This vision of a world full of doctors opposed to abortion strikes me as a vision of hell.  The last thing a woman choosing to abort needs is a moralizing doctor trying to force her to change her mind...chances are, she won't (unless the doctor is deliberately feeding her misinformation), and she will have to suffer the trauma of facing stigma every step of the way.  If you're talking more about awareness campaigns (e.g. posters in bars warning pregnant women about FAS) then I don't really see how these would accomplish anything...women already know that abortions kill fetuses.  If you genuinely are for choice, then your actions should reflect that belief...that is, we should all leave women to make these choices themselves, without any pressure or attempted manipulation.

Submitted by pcwhite on January 9, 2009 - 11:05pm.
The question of whether or not a fetus is a person is a distraction. If something or someone is located inside my body, I'm entitled to have him/her/it killed no matter what he/she/it is. If all the billions of human beings alive today were assembled somewhere inside my body, along with Baby Jesus, God Almighty, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I'd be entitled to holocaust 'em any time. This is part of the meaning of the word "my" in the phrase "my body".
Submitted by Egli Ha on January 7, 2009 - 5:44pm.
So, are you saying that a fetus is not human? If it is not human then while you are carrying this baby...you either are a woman with two vaginas or a woman with a penis. And you are carrying around something or someone with it's own complete set of unique chromosomes. Would it be ok for a woman to kill her 2 year old? Her 2 year old is dependent upon her, is developementally inferior to the mom, smaller than her mom. Why does the location of a human being suddenly change a human into a non-human entity? Inside your body or outside your body, he/she will always be a human being...unique, valued.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 9, 2009 - 1:54pm.
Really, it's the choice of the mother AND father if or if not they should get an abortion. Let them deal with the consquences there after.
Submitted by Settlement Loan on January 7, 2009 - 11:56pm.
It's the choice of the WOMAN. Period. If they have a good relationship, the man may have a say, but he doesn't get veto rights over what the woman does with HER body.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 3:29pm.
I just re-read the article in question and this sentence jumped out at me:
While the right to decide whether or not to have a baby exclusively belongs to the woman, the man should have the legal right within the first few months of the woman's pregnancy to choose and declare whether or not he accepts the financial obligations as they are required of the father under Family Law.

Excuse me...what??  Why should men, and only men, have the right to opt out of paying child support for a person they are responsible for creating?  And just why in the hell should women be the ones automatically held legally responsible for caring for a child?  This idea smacks of antiquated sexism.  It also puts every last bit of the burden on the shoulders of women...surprise, surprise.  She has to go through the ordeal of gestating this person for 9 months and giving birth to it; the least he can do is give her some fucking money.

 

Let's see how much support there is for this idea when we turn it around...women should be legally able to dump a child on the (potentially unwilling) father and then refuse to pay for its upkeep.  Double standard much?

Submitted by pcwhite on January 8, 2009 - 1:20am.
to be honest, that does sound pretty fair to me (and i am a woman). so long as the man tells the woman he doesn't want the child while she still has enough time to weigh her options and decide whether she still wants to go through the pregnancy or not, i don't see the problem. of course, if he waited until the baby was born or even viable, then he should be held financially responsible, since the woman at that point has no choice in whether or not to still have the baby.

this is why good sex ed is so important, if for nothing else that to teach people to communicate with each other. you should never have sex with anyone who feels differently on the issue of choice, but if you do anyway, you should be prepared well before it becomes an issue.

Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 12:02pm.

...is that allowing a dad to be a deadbeat dumps ALL the financial responsibility on the mother (as well as the responsibility of actually raising the kid), while he's free to just dick around and do as he pleases with his income.  Honestly, how is this fair?  How is this fair to the mother, who only shares half the responsibility of creating the kid in the first place?  How is this good for the kid, who now needs to get by on significantly less money?

 

And I would be interested to see anyone on here respond to my last point in my previous post...that is, how many of you are in favour of allowing a mother to dump a child on the father and run?  Keep in mind that this father is not necessarily a willing party.

 

by the way... please don't try and tell me that the choice to abort and the choice to ditch are equivalent.  I'll try to illustrate this in a nifty little mathematical model (and hope that real mathematicians don't cringe at its rudimentariness).

 

The distribution of financial responsibility on the parents of a child are thus, if we make the assumption that this is an egalitarian relationship:

 

(for ease of comprehension, dollars required to raise a child = 10)

mother:  5                           father:  5

 

 

distribution of financial responsibility on parents of a "child," when the woman decides to abort (assume abortion is free, just for parsimony):

 

mother:  0                           father:  0

 

 

distribution of financial responsibility on parents of a child, when the father decides to bugger off:

 

mother:  10                              father:  0

 

Therefore, the two choices are not equivalent because the mother's choice to abort puts a burden on absolutely nobody...and even in the event that she has the child, the burden she puts on the father is half the burden he puts on her by deciding to be a deadbeat.   This is how I reach the conclusion that allowing fathers to exempt themselves from financial responsibility is grotesquely unfair.

Submitted by pcwhite on January 9, 2009 - 12:38pm.
Denying a man his right to disown his child before birth would deny the man his right to protect his personal (and financial) autonomy.
Submitted by sg on January 8, 2009 - 12:42pm.

Ah, I see.

 

I feel like trying out my parrot impression.  Mind you, it isn't perfect yet, so I might misplace a few words when I do my imitation.

 

"Denying a woman her right to disown her child before birth would deny the woman her right to protect her personal (and financial) autonomy."

 

Please do show me one man who would like women to have the ability to dump a child on him and run.

 

(in case any of you are wondering why I'm only interpreting this legal deadbeat situation as "father dumping child on mother and running," it's because we already have legal avenues for BOTH parents to cede responsibility for raising their children.  it's called putting a kid up for adoption.)

Submitted by pcwhite on January 9, 2009 - 6:45pm.
Still at birth she has the choice to adopt out or not...same policy should apply for the father when she once again has a choice and fails to take it.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 12:54pm.
meaning any right of his to decide to opt out of financial obligations should be after birth.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 2:27pm.
The woman can pass the point of viability and still make the decision after this point to place the baby for adoption, and also after birth, opting out of financial responsibility under family law. She can change her mind even at these later points to decide to relinquish those responsibilities due to a sudden downturn in a financial situation for herself, a change of heart given the reality of the birth is more imminent or has happened, etc...things that may have changed for her after viability or after birth. Her choices and options to preserve her financial autonomy still exist at birth through adoption. If the man is to have rights to opt out of his financial responsibility those rights should not be held to an artificially constrained timeline while her options still remain even post-birth.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 9, 2009 - 10:50am.

Magnitude of Horror! 

Estimated number of abortions from 1973 to 2008 in U.S.: 48 Million

Iraq War deaths: 4157 U.S. soldiers, estimates of 150,000 Iraqis (killed by violence whether U.S., insurgency, or rampant crime).  Some estimates are much higher.

Euthanasia: unknown

Death penalty/executions from 1976 to 2008: 1123

Embryos destroyed by researchers: unknown
Embryos destroyed in fertility clinics due to In-Vitro Fertilization (IVF): unknown, but speculated to be in hundreds of thousands
Frozen embryos created by IVF: estimates of around 400,000 (not known what will be done with them)

Every human life is sacred and a gift from God.

Submitted by Truth on January 8, 2009 - 9:47am.

See, Troll, I mean, Truth, we don't base our laws on a 2000 year old oral history of the Hebrew people that has been rewritten, re-translated, abused, used to justify genocide, and has no actual proof that the events or characters exist.

 Instead, we base laws on the rights of actual sentient people.

 You DO know there are no mentions of abortion being wrong in the Bible right? And a couple of mentions of how much a miscarried fetus is worth money-wise, and an in-depth discussion about a "magic spell" to find out if your wife will be unfaithful which would cause her to miscarry the fetus if she is pregnant. Oh, and that Jehovah guy is really nasty in the Old Testament, telling people to go out and commit mass genocide on other tribes and rip the fetuses from the wombs of pregnant women of the enemy.

Just a thought.

Submitted by TheRealistMom on January 8, 2009 - 2:46pm.
for people to consider! I was fascinated by them - especially when people make the argument that pro-lifers are war-mongers.
Submitted by Truth on January 8, 2009 - 3:38pm.

First of all, the oral history of the Hebrew people is more like four thousand years old and the written history may be as old as thirty five hundred years.

 

THE BIBLE 

Rewritten, Retranslated, Misunderstood??  Yes

Abused? Yes

Used to justify genocide? Yes

Lacking proof of historical accuracy? Yes 

Vulnerable to 'cherry picked' embarrassments?  Try Deut 25, 11-12 "When two men are fighting and the wife of one intervenes to save her husband from the blows of his opponent, if she stretches out her hand and seizes the latter by his private parts, you shall chop off her hand without pity."

 

You make good arguments against Biblical fundamentalism, but you miss the main point which is "Do you want to live in a society where the value of life, including the value of YOUR life, is held sacred?"  Surely we can discuss that issue without needing to come to agreement about the accuracy of the Bible or the existence of God. 

Paul Bradford

Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

Submitted by Paul Bradford, Pro Life Catholics for Choice on January 8, 2009 - 7:27pm.

Under normal circumstances, yes, I don't fall back on those arguments, in general it accomplishes little. I am glad to see that you, as a practicing Catholic and an outspoken person for a cause, that you are well-educated on the flaws in Biblical fundamentalism (sadly, its often those who are overly fundamental in their interpretations who cherry-pick and know little of their own faith.) When I see someone who uses the excuse of "God says!" as a be-all, end-all argument I lose my patience a bit.

 

You and I will always disagree on one fundamental issue in regards to what constitutes a culture that values life, as mine regards the already-born and conscious woman above that of a potential person. I can, however, respect the fact you make your arguments for the most part from logic and a passion for life as opposed to simply falling back upon the god card.

Submitted by TheRealistMom on January 8, 2009 - 7:49pm.
Gawd, Jeebus, saykridness, blah, blah, blah. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Submitted by Anonymous on January 8, 2009 - 3:31pm.
on this piece are here A tidbit below: Instead of looking to an embryology textbook to figure out if the developing unborn child is a human being, Sedaei claims they are not because scientists use a term to describe unborn organisms at a certain stage of development. This is like someone saying teenagers aren’t human beings because science clearly calls some vertebrates who aren’t yet adults “adolescents.” Plus, while Sedaei used the Merriam-Webster dictionary to find the definition of viable, he curiously didn’t use that same dictionary to find the definition of fetus, which reads, in part, “a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth.”
Submitted by JivinJ on January 8, 2009 - 4:23pm.
"The ruling rather allowed those who believe a fetus is a human being to keep their fetuses and carry their offspring and those who believe a fetus is not a human being to choose whether they are socially, economically and emotionally ready to have a child." If you believed your neighbor was killing his toddlers between breakfast and lunch, wouldn't you have a moral and ethical duty to prevent this? If you thought your friend was going to walk away from her infant in the bathtub to answer the phone, wouldn't you have a moral and ethical duty to prevent this? If you saw that a stranger had left her newborn on the front porch on a subzero day, wouldn't you have a moral and ethical duty to do something? If you saw a 4-year-old locked in a car on a hot summer day without the windows cracked, wouldn't you have a moral and ethical duty to prevent this? What kind of people would pro-life people be if they really and truly believed that abortion was killing children and they just stood by and watched and said, "It's not my place to do anything. It's not my life, not my family, and that sure is a shame, but I'd better not say or do anything because I don't want to overstep my bounds or interfere with other people's privacy"? Contrary to popular belief, we're NOT motivated by mean-spirited and bigoted desires to oppress women. (Some of us even are women.) We're concerned about the children who, because they are the most weak and most vulnerable, and sometimes most inconvenient, are viewed as disposable by our society. You may not agree with me that fetuses are children, or that they deserve human rights. But how can you argue that I, believing as I do that fetuses have no less value or worth than infants or toddlers or teenagers or adults, should just be okay with a "compromise" that has killed in the tens of millions of those fetuses over the past 30-someodd years?
Submitted by Scarlett on January 8, 2009 - 9:03pm.

This is another example of the fixation on Roe, and the conflation of examples of harm to people that is so misleading in this conversation.

Abortion has been going on for more than "30-some-odd years" (e.g. since Roe).  My own mother had a pre-Roe abortion so I know of what I speak.  Laws neither make abortion more likely nor more rare: they only make abortions relatively more or less safe and more or less costly in terms of women's lives.

Roe did not start the trend of abortions in this country and striking it down will not end it.  It will just shift the costs to women's lives which, apparently, whether you are male, female or however self-defined does not seem to bother you.  Even if I agreed that an embryo or a fetus had the same rights as a born, sentient human being, which I do not, I would still privilege the woman's right to choose and to safeguard her own life and that of her existing family.

Everyone agrees that a baby once born, an infant, a toddler, a child is a born, sentient human being, so the comparisons between an embryo, zygote, fetus are not comparable as everyone does not agree either on the status or the relative weight of choices.

But more to the point.....why not put your energy into expanding access to contraception, sexuality education and other preventive measures?  Do you believe in contraception?  Do you believe in protected sex?  Or are you among those that believes that even hormonal contraceptives are abortifacients?  Because in the latter case this argument underscores again that the focus is on women's rights to control their bodies, to enjoy sexual relationships and to use contraceptives....and by increasing their access to these methods we could in fact work together.  Why not raise this issue?

It is so ridiculously easy to play this game.  But the stark reality is that millions of women, for whatever their own reasons, each year are so desperate not to be pregnant that they seek out abortions even in countries where they are illegal and even in countries where the risk of dying from complications of unsafe abortion are great.  At least 75,000 of them do die every year from these complications.  Many times that number suffer illness and disability as a result of infection and other complications.  If nothing else, this says that their calculus of life and death is far broader than your own.

Are women only the vessel through which to deliver yet another baby, with no concern to her own life or that of her existing family?

Work to help people practice safer sex and this will in turn reduce the rate of unintended pregnancy and the overall need for abortion services.  But fight to make abortion illegal and you are choosing to let women die.  We don't need to look very far for the evidence as it is everywhere throughout Africa and Latin America where complications of unsafe abortion are among the leading causes of illness and death among women of reproductive age.

 

Jodi

Submitted by Jodi Jacobson, RH Reality Check on January 8, 2009 - 10:29pm.

Just a matter of time.

Everything you are talking about is irrelevant because you cannot make something that is inherently wrong (murder) legal by saying that it will happen anyway so just make it safer for the culprit!? Listen to what your saying... Let's see that's like saying...

Since banks are going to be robbed anyway, let's make it safe for the robber and the victims involved by making it legal to rob a bank!

You need to think logically about it.

Submitted by Truth on January 9, 2009 - 2:59pm.

"Horton and the Whos" - the Dr. Suess movie... It's great and it really speaks to the personhood of even the tiniest little microscopic fertilized egg! Check it out!

Submitted by Truth on January 10, 2009 - 12:49pm.
... that Theodore Geisel's widow has threatened to sue people for using "Horton Hears a Who" as a vehicle for anti-choice propaganda? She knew he had no intention of the story to be used to refer to fetuses in a political movement.
Submitted by TheRealistMom on January 13, 2009 - 9:35pm.
We need to work together! Abortion if illegal or legal is going to happen until we start eliminateing the “need” for it. Thats why we started a group to start wrking on this at http://togetherforchange.ning.com/ unless ppl get together and help they really have no right to complain.imo
Submitted by kenzie on January 16, 2009 - 11:45pm.

As a feminist pro-choice activist, one of my favourite things to do which disarms anti-choicers is admit that I agree that the fetus is a potential human being whose development is terminated by abortion. Antis think that pro-choicers are completely in the dark about embryonic development and that the realization that "ZOMG it's a REAL baybee!!11!!" will change our minds about whether or not to abort.  After all, what's 18 or more years of your life spent in poverty, shunned by a society that looks down on single mothers and that doesn't even have universal health care so as to ensure that that baby grows up healthy if mom delivers?

Anti-choicers could be spending their resources on helping born babies who desperately need loving parents and shelter instead of trying to keep unwilling women pregnant. It's high time that we moved into the 21st century and give women full access to comprehensive reproductive health services.

I am woman. I have power to decide if and when I will give life to another being. Deal with it.

Submitted by Alex_M on January 17, 2009 - 12:20pm.