National Right to Life President: Texas Abortion Bill Intended to Shutter Clinics


The leader of a national anti-choice lobby group said Sunday that Texas’ omnibus anti-abortion law, which in part requires abortion providers to operate as mini-hospitals, was always intended to shutter legal abortion clinics.

The state legislators who passed HB 2 in the summer of 2013 claimed at the time that its only purpose was to raise the “standard of care” for Texans who seek legal abortion.

But on Sunday, National Right to Life President Carol Tobias said on ABC’s This Week that Texas’ new ambulatory surgical center requirement—which has been temporarily blocked and declared unconstitutional by a Republican-appointed federal judge—is about “both” restricting access to legal abortion care and “protecting women and children.”

When asked whether HB 2 was about “restricting access” or “about safety,” Tobias responded:

“It’s about both. We want to protect unborn children from death. But we also want to protect the women who are going to be harmed by abortion. it might not be an immediate physical reaction. There are long-term physical consequences. There are long-term mental and emotional consequences to abortion. This is about protecting women and children.”

This is not the first time anti-choice lobbyists and politicians have strayed from the “standard of care” narrative surrounding HB 2 and similar TRAP (targeted regulation of abortion providers) legislation.

Texas’ Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst tweeted last summer that reducing the number of abortion providers in Texas to just five was “why” he supported the bill that would eventually be passed as HB 2.

And in July, the legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee told her organization’s annual convention attendees that legal abortion is safer than many common medical procedures and childbirth, encouraging them to focus instead on “the unborn.”

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  • fiona64

    The leader of a national anti-choice lobby group said Sunday that Texas’
    omnibus anti-abortion law, which in part requires abortion providers to
    operate as mini-hospitals, was always intended to shutter legal
    abortion clinics.

    Quelle surprise. Not.

    There are long-term physical consequences. There are long-term mental and emotional consequences to abortion.

    What absolute balderdash. There are far more long-term physical consequences, as well as long-term mental and emotional consequences, to gestation and delivery.

    • lady_black

      Not only that, but it’s a great business opportunity for Perry’s sister.

      • Beth Presswood

        NO. No new ambulatory surgical centers are adding abortion. This is ridiculous.

        • eroteme

          Not yet

          • Beth Presswood

            NO, they’re not going to. You don’t understand the situation. Perry and the anti-choicers want the clinics reduced or closed. If a single ambulatory surgical center adds abortion, it will be protested to death.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Planned Parenthood is building one.

          • Beth Presswood

            Yes it is and the anti-choicers have tried to stop it. But that’s not what ladyblack was referring to.

          • fiona64

            Rick Perry’s sister owns a chain of ASCs. You just wait and see.

          • Beth Presswood

            You simply do not know what you’re talking about. This bill was drafted by anti-choicers to reduce the number of abortion clinics. It has nothing to do with Perry’s sister.

          • fiona64
          • eroteme

            Beth Is from Texas and she is a host of the Godless Bitches podcast.

          • fiona64

            I’m happy for Beth … but that doesn’t change the fact that Perry’s sister stands to profit from HB2.

          • eroteme

            I know. I was just being all informational n stuff.

          • Beth Presswood

            Half those links are gone. Those people don’t know what they’re talking about either. ASC requirements are part of TRAP laws, the purpose of which is to close clinics. The ASCs that Perry’s sister manages are not the kind of ASCs that do abortions. This is a conspiracy theory that does not take the situation in Texas into account. REad the article above you. This law is for closing clinics. Anti-choicers aren’t going to let it stand if a new clinic started doing abortions. They would protest it until they drove it out of business. You don’t understand this.

          • fiona64

            I did read the article. And since the links were working when I posted them, I do not understand why you would claim that “half of them are gone.”

            Save your condescension. I’m not stupid, despite you speaking to me as though I am. I am keenly aware that a) the point of TRAP laws is to close clinics and b) that Perry’s sister’s clinics *do not presently* do abortions. You seem to think you are psychic about this matter. I wouldn’t trust any member of the Perry family any further than I could throw them … and the reality remains that Perry’s sister does stand to profit simply by adding the service.

          • eroteme

            They all work with the exception of the last one. Here is the fixed link
            http://www.texasobserver.org/obamacare-jags-rick-perrys-lobbyist-sister/

            And one link with a 404 does not = half

          • Beth Presswood

            Then why don’t you understand that she would NOT profit from adding abortion because anti-choicers would target any new clinic?

          • fiona64

            ::head desk::

          • Beth Presswood

            Yeah I’m hearddesking too because you’re too wedded to a conspiracy theory and not understanding how anti-choicers work.

          • eroteme

            Why would they not make money if the clinics met the new standards?

            Or are you suggesting that Texas will keep inventing ridiculous new TRAP laws?

          • Beth Presswood

            If Perry’s sister’s general ASCs started doing abortions, anti-choicers would protest outside it. They would target all doctors that worked there for harassment. They would harass all patients who went there for any procedure. They would write letters to all partnering hospitals. They would make it so burdensome to do abortions it would outweigh any financial windfall (abortions are not very lucrative anyway)

          • fiona64

            Lady, I’ve been fighting against the anti-choice since probably before you were *born.* Stop the condescending *bullshit.*

          • Beth Presswood

            Doing something for a long time doesn’t mean you can’t be wrong. ASC requirements did not originate with Rick Perry. They have no connection to his relatives.

          • Arekushieru

            It’s already happened, at a Planned Parenthood, I believe. But it doesn’t mean that no one, not even (or should that be especially not?) Rick Perry’s sister.

        • fiona64

          You just wait and see.

  • DonnaDiva

    They’re admitting it right to everyone’s faces but that will still not stop gullible mainstream reporters from repeating the claim that antis are doing it for “safety”.

  • Ivy Mike

    I think these people have lied so often, and for so long, that they actually have come to be convinced of their own lies (that is, those of them smart enough to see the truth in the first place).

    Another thing is, they spend so much time in their echo-chambers that they think that their bullshit is “obviously” true. They often fail to even notice when they let a few cats flee the bag, because they admit all of this to each other all the time. It’s why they get caught saying stupid shite so often (Todd Akin comes to mind).

    • eroteme

      Even the pope said that lying to end abortion was moral

      • lady_black

        The pope smokes dope.

    • Ramanusia

      They’ve also been lied to and for so long, not a lot of them have the critical thinking abilities to combat that sustained propaganda attack.

  • n4584

    Many life choices have long term mental and emotional consequences, not just abortions. Many women report the biggest emotional feeling is relief.

    • Max

      Abortion Stories | Abort73.com
      http://www.abort73.com/testimony/
      My girlfriend and I had an abortion at age 17. Our child would be 37-years-old. I regret it every day. Strange, I love life so much but was so selfish to kill him… Try seeing another side .this is not about “many life choices “. There are other people on this planet that don’t agree

      • eroteme

        So?

        • Max

          So what is your personal interest in this ? Why so strong on this side .I’m asking not about a women’s right but your own personal interest that motivates you.everyone passionate about this issue has a story

          • eroteme

            Women are not slaves. They have the right to be free from torture and death.

            Forced gestation = slavery.

            Every pregnancy has the potential to maim and kill. It is impossible to predict which women will die from pregnancy. If you force all women to give birth, you are essentially denying women, as a group, the right to life and health

            Women are not objects to be forced to risk it all on behalf of ANYONE, let alone a mindless embryo.

          • cjvg

            I am a woman, my choices and my regrets are mine and mine alone, they are not yours to determine to assuage your guilt for actions you took.

            You will have to life with the consequences of your own convictions do not attempt to pass those off on me! You have no right to dictate to me who or what can use my body and for who or what I must risk my health, life, financial security, social and economical standing, housing , job security, educational prospects, etc.

            Take some responsibility for your own actions and do not foist them off on me!

          • fiona64

            Why so strong on this side .I’m asking not about a women’s right but
            your own personal interest that motivates you.everyone passionate about
            this issue has a story

            I used to be an anti-choice, Bible-thumping dimwit Just. Like. You. Then I got out of high school and into the real world, where I learned that life was not as black-and-white as I thought. My interest in this is that I am a woman. Period, end of story.

          • Max

            There’s class and there’s trash .and your replies are?

          • fiona64

            There’s class and there’s trash .and your replies are?

            My response to you are, apparently, a classic example of throwing pearls before swine. You’re not bright enough to accept facts when they are presented to you.

            A high degree of religiosity and a low level of education are predictive of being anti-choice. I see that you have both of these, in spades.

          • Shan

            “I’m asking not about a women’s right but your own personal interest that motivates you.”

            My own personal interest IS in women’s rights. That’s what motivates me. If we don’t have the LEGAL right to decide if, when, how and how many times we’re going to give birth, what does that make us?

          • eroteme

            Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
            altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
            nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
            heartburn and indigestion
            constipation
            weight gain
            dizziness and light-headedness
            bloating, swelling, fluid retention
            hemmorhoids
            abdominal cramps
            yeast infections
            congested, bloody nose
            acne and mild skin disorders
            skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
            mild to severe backache and strain
            increased headaches
            difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
            increased urination and incontinence
            bleeding gums
            pica
            breast pain and discharge
            swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
            difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
            inability to take regular medications
            shortness of breath
            higher blood pressure
            hair loss
            tendency to anemia
            curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
            infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
            extreme pain on delivery
            hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
            continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

            Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse in younger women)
            loose skin
            permanent weight gain or redistribution
            abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
            pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
            changes to breasts
            varicose veins
            scarring from episiotomy or c-section
            other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
            increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
            loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s
            newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy
            spousal/partner abuse
            hyperemesis gravidarum
            temporary and permanent injury to back
            severe scarring requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)
            dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
            pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)
            eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
            gestational diabetes
            placenta previa
            anemia (which can be life-threatening)
            thrombocytopenic purpura
            severe cramping
            embolism (blood clots)
            medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
            diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
            mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
            serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
            hormonal imbalance
            ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
            broken bones (ribcage, “tail bone”)
            hemorrhage and
            numerous other complications of delivery
            refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
            aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
            severe post-partum depression and psychosis
            research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors
            research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
            research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy
            cardiopulmonary arrest
            magnesium toxicity
            severe hypoxemia/acidosis
            massive embolism
            increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
            molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
            malignant arrhythmia
            circulatory collapse
            placental abruption
            obstetric fistula

            More permanent side effects:

            future infertility
            permanent disability
            death.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I do not want to be forced to bear a child against my will.
            Simple pimple.

            Because I am a decent human being who can empathize, I also do not want other women to be forced to bear children against their wills.

      • n4584

        I also had an abortion at 17. It was very hard emotionally, but it was the right choice for me. I did not regret it. I am sorry you still regret your decision. I do not think it is anyone else’s place to make my decision for me. Everyone’s situation is different and who are we to judge…

        • Max

          Thank you so much for sharing that .mine was 40 yrs ago and I struggled for many years but am great ,balanced and for Me personally the love and grace of God ( even if you don’t agree ) is the only reason I’m here today.for Me personally my work tells me that young women come to a place in their life that tells them “I’m not sure about this .generally these are young women.much life experience still needs to evolve . As far a judgement ? Again we don’t judge the person but we do judge the laws that destroy life and not uphold it . Thank you so much classy lady !

          • Ramanusia

            You might want to take a close look at what your fellow anti-choicers are doing and saying outside of those clinics, they do judge the person, and in some cases have to problem with carrying out executions. Your fellow anti-choicers are also trying to pass laws that decriminalize the murder of doctors. Allowing women to make their own medical decisions with the aid of their doctors and anyone else in their life they choose to seek counsel from doesn’t destroy life, but in many cases it does uphold it.

          • cjvg

            However this is not just about you! Again you make no mention whatsoever of the feelings of the actual woman involved, the woman who clearly and irrefutably is the only one who must risk her live and health for a pregnancy. Sure it is a hard and emotional issue for you, however that still does not give you the right to deny other women choices you clearly had and used!

          • fiona64

            This is not about you, Christine Smith. You made your choice, and now you want to force other people to make the same one as you — people you’ve never even met and whose circumstances you cannot possibly know.

            Don’t tell me, let me guess: *your* abortion was a case of need, but everyone else is a murdering s1ut. Am I right?

          • Max

            Actually mine was back in1974 .that was 40 yrs ago when there wasn’t any information at all .unlike today .women know exactly what their doing and as of this date .i now know what I have done .would of never done it had I known what I now know .AND you and I know it’s not about rights

          • lady_black

            People knew what they were doing in 1974 too. That was NOT the Dark Ages.

          • Max

            On the contrary.fetal development ,medical advances ,heartbeat ultrasound and a whole host of information has made abortion today impossible to ignore the truth.from what your stating here is YOU personally know that abortion is killing a child in the womb

          • eroteme

            I spose you’re not opposed to flushing zygotes down the toilet since they aren’t in the womb?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Are you telling me that you honestly didn’t know what ending a pregnancy was about?

          • Max

            So you admit that ending a pregnancy is taking the life of a child .yes

          • eroteme

            Nope.

            That “child” has no right to the woman’s body. And it dies because its non viable. Blame evolution for that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s not quite what I said. But you can’t claim ignorance of what pregnancy means just because it was 1974. Cop-out.

          • Shan

            Well, what did you THINK you were killing? A kangaroo?

          • Max

            It’s pretty clear that you all admit its a “child in the womb” on this site .most pro death people “never “admit that . What ‘s chilling is you don’t care as long as you can’t do it .

          • eroteme

            Child is just a synonym for offspring. Your “child” can be a 46 year old Dog the Bounty Hunter.

          • Shan

            Yes, I don’t care what other women do with their uteruses as long as it remains legal for every woman to decide for herself what does/does not go into/come out of them. Even Michelle Duggar. Although I find that whole situation pretty revolting, she can give birth every 9 months and 10 minutes for all I care. I’d never advocate for it to be illegal.

          • fiona64

            You really are dreadfully stupid, aren’t you?

          • cjvg

            So 40 years ago people did not know that when you continued a pregnancy you eventually ended up with a child? Wow, that is news to my parents, they were most certainly aware that it worked that way after all that is why they got married!

          • eroteme

            That’s cuz youre Dutch

            Over in the good ol’ USA, people still don’t know that pregnancy can result in a child.

          • cjvg

            Oh, that is why you all have sidewalk counselors, all these women have no idea that pregnancy leads to babies! Now I get it

          • Arekushieru

            Nope. First, not a child. Second, not killing. Third, it’s a uterus.

          • fiona64

            Actually mine was back in1974 .that was 40 yrs ago when there wasn’t any information at all .

            Are you effing kidding me? Abortion has been going on since before recorded history. Don’t try the “we didn’t have any information” gambit; it only makes you look even more stupid.

            AND you and I know it’s not about rights

            Yes, you imbecilic bint, it *is* about rights. Which of your medical decisions should I get to make for you? After all, you want the right to make them for *me.* The right to privacy in medical decisions is *real.*

          • Unicorn Farm

            Good god, you mean to tell me you couldn’t figure out that if you had an abortion you wouldn’t have a baby? I think you knew perfectly well that if you had an abortion you wouldn’t have a baby and that’s exactly why you did it. Not that there’s anything wrong with that- but it IS wrong for you to try to take away others’ rights to avail themselves of a choice that you knowingly availed yourself of.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            Perhaps you have forgotten what was claimed by the pro life movement back in the 70’s. In fact most everything that is said today was said as far back as the early 30’s and 40’s. In fact prior to WWI the claim was that abortion was murder. During WWII the Germans took Jewish women and had them raped by guards and then the women were killed in an effort to prove “life at conception”. The Germans made abortion a capital offense and passed public law 238 that made abortion and birth control impossible. The fact is that the current approach to abortion adopted by the pro life movement is a mirror image of the WWII German approach.
            The Germans believed just as you believe. It was just fine for them to murder innocent born life in an effort to force the birth of fetuses.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Is that your story or did you just copy/paste?

        • Max

          Class or trash Jennifer ? What is your story?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Which story do you want to hear?

          • Max

            Your choice

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m Jennifer, I’m 41. My birthday is the last day of January. I live in southeastern Virginia, previously in New Orleans and a tiny Arkansas town. I have great parents, grandparents, numerous aunts and uncles and two siblings. I’m a freelance writer, I have been a nanny and have a house full of books and two cats. Anything else?

          • Max

            Thanks Jennifer . Nothing else .have a great night and thank you for not being fresh

          • Jennifer Starr

            Excuse me–being fresh?

          • Ella Warnock
          • Ramanusia

            Jen, can you please edit out some of your personal information, a lot of extremely hateful people troll this site and I worry for you, since these people are rather unhinged.

          • Jennifer Starr

            will do

          • eroteme

            Those two cats are just more proof that you are a heartless baybee killer!1

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh you know that Faye Valentine/Xalisae is fond of speculating that women have one cat for each abortion they’ve had? She wrote that little gem on Jill Stanek’s site, when Jill was getting all pissy about a woman who wouldn’t give permission for Jill to use her photos. That woman does not play with a full deck.

          • eroteme

            Agreed.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I have regularly read Stanek’s blog and accompanying comments by her whackjob* followers for about a decade now. Xalisae has been on there for a very long time posting the same whiny drivel about what a martyr she is for ruining her own life by having a child she wasn’t prepared to have because LIFE1!. She’s incredibly hateful. I know you guys here have figured this out, but her “pro-life” stance appears to largely translate to “misery loves company.”

            *I hate using language like this because I feel like it’s shaming towards people with mental illness. However, very few of the regular commenters there seem mentally well.

          • eroteme

            I was messing with her the other day over on SPL, and she stated that

            1) 100 zygotes in a petri dish means that that a man and women are ‘parents’ to 100 children

            2) that to flush those zygotes down the toilet would be as ‘barbaric’ as dismembering a toddler or something

          • Unicorn Farm

            If 1) is true I would like to place some eggs in some dishes and obtain some serious tax deductions, please.
            2) unreal. unhinged.
            I haven’t been able to comment over on SPL for a while. No browser that I’ve used has been able to load the comments in a few months. Any idea why that might be? Is it glitchy for you? One of the anti’s asked me to discuss tort concepts a month or so ago, but I could never respond. Not that I’m particularly enthused to do so…. I have four perfectly good brick walls in my office that I could just as easily speak to.

          • eroteme

            It works fine for me, though when I try to load it on my phone it tends to load like molasses…

            One of the SPL commenters, is a *professional* philosopher, and he cited Law and Order by stating that if a hospital mistakenly takes your kidney, that you can sue for malpractise, but you can NEVER get your kidney back, because the bodily autonomy of the person who now has your kidney overrides your right to get your kidney back. This, somehow, in his mind, proves that it would be an illegal act to infringe on the bodily autonomy of the prenate since it already has your organs.

            Legally, do you think that courts would allow you to reclaim your kidney?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m not sure, at first blush, but I doubt it simply because doing so would require assaulting the person who now has it. You would get “made whole” in some other way, like money damages.

            This different than abortion because the donation is not complete and is ongoing. The fetus does not “have” my organs. It does not own them. When we are done with the gestation process, they will still be mine. The right to them is not temporarily transferred simply because the fetus is using them, either. It is using them at my discretion. In that way, it’s like kicking a rapist out of your vagina. It’s cool to assault him to do so and consent can be withdrawn at any time.

            And, of course, anyone who cites L&O is dumb.

          • eroteme

            Sounds reasonable. He also argued that we do not value bodily autonomy (which is why heroin is illegal) all that much. Whereas we value bodily integrity, and since abortion is an assault on the prenate’s body.. It should be illegal.

            Such tortured logic from a professional bullshit artist.

          • Shan

            Makes my brain wince.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I use the phrases “bodily integrity” and “bodily autonomy” interchangeably. I’ve done a ton of reading on this topic and never noticed a difference. Maybe I’m missing something?

            Musing, one thing I notice is that when we get into these debates about bodily autonomy and abortion we speak of it on a hyper-technical level. Like, whether there is a difference between active and passive killing, which body is assaulting which body, whether the removal of a fetus is an “assault” on its body, whether a fetus can exercise autonomy (lol, no), issues of consent, foreseeability, etc. While I think that these debates need to be had and that the pro-choice side wins.every.time., I also think that they miss the “big picture” of bodily autonomy- what choices a woman should be allowed to make about her health, wellness, and body, and whether she chooses to undertake the enormous physical and life changes that necessarily accompany having a baby. It annoys me to no end that the anti’s ignore this broad concept of autonomy. Ugh.

            Also, my understanding is that its *possession* of drugs that’s illegal. Not consumption (exception being BS anti-choice laws designed to criminalize addicted mothers). That may seem like an academic distinction but it’s important.

          • eroteme

            also think that they miss the “big picture” of bodily autonomy- what choices a woman should be allowed to make about her health, wellness, and body, and whether she chooses to undertake the enormous physical and life changes that necessarily accompany having a baby. It annoys me to
            no end that the anti’s ignore this broad concept of autonomy.

            You nailed it.

            I love catching them on the technicalities though..

            Abortion is wrong because it acts on the body of the fetus..

            Ok,what if the woman starves herself? What if she has a uterine ablation and the zygote cannot implant? What if she has an eating disorder which can result in a miscarriage? What if she has the blood supply cut off to her uterus? What if she doesn’t ingest enough folic acid during the pregnancy, and the baby never develops a brain?

            Now, apparently ALL OF THE ABOVE are examples of *acting on the body of the fetus* yet, somehow, it’s completely acceptable to ‘let the violinist die’ by deliberately unplugging him from your kidneys. Yet, removing the placenta from your uterine blood vessel = deliberate murder.

            Also, I thought that the fetus was a SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL. So, if it’s so fucking separate, then why is it that the woman is *at fault* if she does something to *her body* and the fetus is harmed/dies as a result???

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I love catching them on the technicalities though..”

            It is fun. My love of debating these issues was one of the reasons I chose law as a career.

            “Ok,what if the woman starves herself? What if she has a uterine ablation and the zygote cannot implant? What if she has an eating disorder which can result in a miscarriage? What if she has the blood supply cut off to her uterus? What if she doesn’t ingest enough folic acid during the pregnancy, and the baby never develops a brain?”

            Their asinine logic also totally contradicts their stance on “abortifacients.” The pill/ IUD doesn’t “act on” the “body” of the zygote. Not at all. If it does anything, it changes the lining of the uterus. Under their theory, above, I should be able to maintain the lining of MY uterus in any way I desire, because it’s MY uterus. I don’t care if its as hard as granite and impervious to fetuses. It is my right to maintain my uterus as a fetus-impervious-fortress. Who says I have to maintain my body in a way that actually facilitates a zygote’s implanting? It’s like saying I can’t walk around with my legs closed so its easier for penises to get all up in my vagina.

            “Now, apparently ALL OF THE ABOVE are examples of *acting on the body of the fetus* yet, somehow, it’s completely acceptable to ‘let the violinist die’ by deliberately unplugging him from your kidneys. Yet, removing the placenta from your uterine blood vessel = deliberate murder.”

            Yep. It’s so pathetic.

            That’s why I always try to get them to explain the fundamental moral difference between killing and letting die, when all else is equal. They can’t. They never can. James Rachels is my favorite philosopher to go to for that argument. It was after I started writing about Rachels that Calvin Freakburger banned me (again and again and again).

            “Also, I thought that the fetus was a SEPARATE INDIVIDUAL. So, if it’s so fucking separate, then why is it that the woman is *at fault* if she does something to *her body* and the fetus is harmed/dies as a result???”
            +1,000. A fetus is the most intensely unseparate thing I can imagine. “Different from” == “separate.” Ugh.

          • eroteme

            James Rachels..I will look him up.

            I spent the last month in a ridiculous ‘debate’ with one Simon Jm over at SPL. He had the most convoluted argument, and was trying to combine tort law with…wtf, I don’t fucking know.

            I have bored everyone here with it, because it’s so fucking stupid, but let me run it past you. I showed him your essay btw, and he rejected it and is off to consult with other lawyers. This is his thesis, and he is so proud of himself, apparently philosopher David Boonin wants to read his thesis!

            1) we have a duty of care towards those we place in an SED or situational existential dependency (his analogy of choice: inviting a family to your home in a blizzard, then throwing them out into the snow to die because their voices annoyed you)

            2) if a woman places a ZEF in an SED, she owes it duty of care

            3) however, she does have a right to bodily autonomy, so she can legally get an abortion, because she has the right not to be enslaved. However, she will be held liable for failing ‘duty of care’ and will have to serve a jail sentence (his analogy – drugging a man at a bar, forcing him to rape you, and then killing him in self-defense)

            So..you have a right..but if you exercise that right…you go to jail.

            His analogies point towards the creation of the SED as being HARM DONE, which would mean that non-procreative sex = criminal, or at least negligent.

            I asked him, and never did receive an answer…what should she be charged with for failing her ‘duty of care’ towards the zef?

            1) crimnally negligent non-procreative sex?

            2) having the abortion, which is apparently her legal right?

            Some other nitpicks. He argued that the woman is 100% responsible for the neediness that the ZEF finds itself in. Ok, if she is responsible for that, then why is she not also responsible for genetic defects, miscarriages, ectopic implantation? Nope, apparently all of that is out of her control, except the part where she MADE the non-viable zef needy by having sex (and as you see, we go back to criminalizing non-reproductive sex)

            If she is raped, she owes absolutely ZERO moral duty to the ZEF, and can kill it without repercussions. Ok…so then where does the ZEF’s right to life come from? if it is a moral being, as he is arguing, why does it lose it’s right to life based on HOW it was created???? If a woman can’t kill her newborn baby that was conceived through rape, then why the fuck can she kill her rape embryo??

            The entire thing falls apart under the massive weight of contradictions. He kept moving the goalposts by inventing new analogies. As you said in your original essay, this ‘responsibility objection’ stuff would ultimately lead to women being held strictly liable for having sex

          • Unicorn Farm

            Sounds like you’ve done a great job handling it. His “theory” (lol) is nothing more than the same nonsense that prompted me to write that original essay. Same sh*t different terms, slightly. I don’t even have anything to add other than you obviously don’t have the right to do something if you can go to jail for it. Eye roll.
            Rachels is great- look up the essay about the uncles killing the nephew in the bathtub. It’s not about abortion, but it totally takes care of this simpering about active v. passive killing.

          • Shan

            My brain just threw up a little in my skull.

          • eroteme

            Yeah. You know, I struggled with his arguments. Took me a good week to figure out wtf he was on about, due to all of the contradictions.

          • Arekushieru

            From all the nauseating back and forth it must have been doing with that drivel eroteme posted from Simon?

          • Shan

            “From all the nauseating back and forth it must have been doing with that drivel eroteme posted from Simon?”

            Uh-huh. I forgot this forum gets a bit confusing when you get X layers into the thread. It stops offsetting them so you don’t know which responses go with which posts.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, I don’t know if you knew this already, but if you set your cursor on the name the person is replying to (for example, in my reply to you, set your cursor on top of your name beside the arrow leading to it from my name) and you should see at least a little blurb of what the person was replying to. That is, if that comment you wanted to see wasn’t deleted. I see quite a few of mine got deleted.

          • Shan

            Oh, perfect! Thanks!

          • Arekushieru

            Okay, then. The sperm didn’t contribute to the dependency of the fetus. More misogyny.

          • eroteme

            Well, they SAY the man should be held equally responsible but let’s be honest here…wank and walk for guys!

          • Shan

            Shhh. Don’t talk about Calvin behind his back. It hurts his feelings when he checks your profile for your posting history to see what you’re saying about him.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Teehee hee. Calvin’s fee-fees are at the top of my priority list. It’s so funny to watch him spin into apoplectic rages, but man he is a piece of work. I can almost see the spittle hitting the computer screen.
            Maybe if he’d just go make some friends, get a girlfriend, masturbate or something… he’d feel better and leave women the hell alone.

          • Shan

            Eh, he’s just a kid. Maybe he’ll chill out a bit as he matures. ;-)

          • Unicorn Farm

            Maybe. And for everyone’s sake, let’s hope so. :). But honestly, he’s not much younger than I am. And yet, I don’t see fit to abuse people like he does.

          • eroteme

            He has to control the message because that’s his job. He gets paid to do this. So yeah, he’s gonna rule with an iron fist.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I simply cannot imagine that he gets paid a living wage to write his screeds. It just seems too unreasonable. Stranger things have happened, however, so you never know. But I agree with you that he has career prospects and ego invested in maintaining the iron fist. Absolutely.

          • eroteme

            He’s also an asshat.

            I love pushing his buttons.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I haven’t been allowed to post on his site since 2012. But it is fun to rile him up :). I really think he’s a terrible person, genuinely and truly. I’d love to think he would mature one day and I hope that Shan’s optimism is on point, but his sort of calculating, thought- out sexism is alarming to me. The disturbing thing about freakburger is that I think he is smart enough to realize how abhorrent his positions are, but he’s too misogynistic to admit it.

          • eroteme

            He is definitely a misogynist prick.

            He is also a dumbass, so he resorts to naturalistic fallacies, one of his favourites is that nature is to blame for pregnancy, not women, so don’t be angry with forced birthers who want to force you to gestate, be angry with *nature*!

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s amusing (well, sickening actually) how PJ4 slobbers and gushes all over Calvin whenever he posts. Just loses what little dignity she has.

          • eroteme

            They slobber all over one another at LAN.
            I hate you Ella!!!!

            U no y?

            Ur not nearly slutty enuf!!1111

          • Ella Warnock

            :-p~~

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, that’s one of the points I was trying to make on another thread (or, was it this one? I don’t remember…). But, basically, it asks, given how all other rights are equal as WELL as the fact we don’t require as much from anyone else as we do of women based on natural processes, not even if it would be required to save someone else, why aren’t WE the ones asking THEM why they don’t just blame it on ‘nature’? I know Xalisae liked to post those as her ‘gotcha’ tactic. At least, now, I know where she got it from.

            Has anyone ever heard of Findlaw, here? I am trying to find an article (I think it’s by Sherry Colby, if I didn’t mistake her first name) about how, even if the right to bodily autonomy were non-existent, women should still have the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy. Based on the fact that it would be discrimination since there would be a burden that was only experienced by half of the population in a country. If anyone else knows what I’m talking about or can help me find it, it would be MUCH appreciated. :)

          • eroteme

            Internalized misogyny. Women are for making babies.

            Also, narcissistic self interest. We were all zygotes once, and our mothers should NOT have had the right to end our special snowflake lives.

          • Arekushieru

            Never mind! FOUND it. I have been LOOKING for this for a LONG time!

            http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20040316.html

          • fiona64

            Bookmarked for future use. Thank you!

          • fiona64

            Poor Calvin Freakburger. I think he’s just mad because no woman with half a brain wants to f*** him.

          • cjvg

            Oops, I should have read further, this is basically what I just said but you already made the point for me!

          • eroteme

            Your point was good. The part about what it means to be non viable especially. I am trying to explain the concept to an asshat on SPL.

          • cjvg

            Like I said before some people will do anything , anything at all not to understand this. And if they have no other out left they will move the goal post yet again

            I can not post there, I think I was banned after only 3 reply’s

          • Ella Warnock

            If I believed that starving myself would change my uterine lining to make it more inhospitable to zygotes rather than using hormonal birth control, then what, exactly, do they claim is the difference? If anything I do – involving birth control or not – could prevent implantation, shouldn’t I be physically prevented from whatever that purposeful action is? Their logic absolutely demands that level of invasive attention to individual reproductive matters.

          • eroteme

            Exactly!!!

            I am leading one idiot down that path at SPL, and she is inventing all sorts of reasons why zygotes, which she claims are babies, should NOT be given this extra protection.

            She is also pretending that anorexics are too “stupid” to know that sex + amenorrhea = dead babyveez!!! Apparently, if one is anorexic, they can’t restrain themselves from having baybee killing sex!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’d be willing to bet that she doesn’t know anyone who actually has an eating disorder because she’s way off base. And elite gymnasts and other female athletes can also have amenorrhea.

          • Arekushieru

            “Abortion is wrong because it acts on the body of the fetus..”

            Here’s a a few thought experiments, take or leave them, as you wish (^_^;):

            It’s also true that it wouldn’t matter if the fetus was not separate, because the fetus’ body already acts on the woman’s body, so if abortion acting on the fetus’ body is wrong, why isn’t pregnancy wrong by their logic (or, rather, their interpretation of the right to bodily autonomy)? See, the way they interpret things means that abortion is always wrong, and if abortion is always wrong because it acts on the fetus’ body, then pregnancy is always wrong because it acts on the woman’s body. But that means stopping a ‘crime’ which does not necessarily equal a ‘crime’. And the same premise in reverse would prove that abortion is not a crime. Therefore their logic fails;

            You’d also have to consider the more fundamental aspect of acting on one’s body. If they want to prevent abortion because it acts on one’s body, they would also have to explain how a woman could not similarly prevent the fetus from acting on her body. Since the fetus was the first to act on another’s body, even if the woman did engage in sex that led to its development, if their logic carried through, a woman would be the first one to determine if another could act on her body. To think of this another way, the only way they COULD accuse the woman of acting on the fetus’ body first, is that her body ‘entrapped’ the fetus by creating it from fertilization to implantation (which is wrong on so many levels but we’re going to ignore basic biology to put it on the anti level for the time being). However, if the woman entrapped the fetus there, by keeping it there aren’t you punishing the fetus? Iow, you are perpetuating a ‘crime’ which is illegal;

            Another thing, that both you and Unicorn Farm mentioned. but I kinda wanna bring the association onto more solid ground, is that abortion, itself, does not directly affect the fetus’ body. The methodology used to facilitate abortion may affect it directly, but all abortion, itself, does is terminate a pregnancy. It cuts off the umbilical cord supply, it removes the placenta, etc… Therefore, how far removed from ‘actively killing’ do we have to get before we are simply letting a fetus die? For one, as UF and you have already implied, it’s not equal compared to other circumstances. For two, these people are always stating how removing the Fallopian tubes or the uterus or the area where the embryo has attached in an ectopic pregnancy is letting die, but that raises another concern, you are violating the woman’s right to medical privacy. Just as they give women either/or options when it comes to having sex such as “If you don’t wanna get pregnant, don’t have sex you dirty s1oot!” here they are telling women “Have this risky, medical procedure or be prepared to give up your life, ya dirty s1oot!”;

            In the comparison of the violinist and the woman, there’s another thing they fail to notice, that neither the woman nor the violinist are responsible for the actions that create the dependency on the uterus/kidney. The woman because it is simply genetic makeup, patterns and development that lead to the dependency on the uterus for fetal development to occur and the fetus to sustain its life. If it were the responsibility of the woman then it is not something that would occur in ALL eutherian mammals. Just humans. And, yet, at the same time, we do not hold other female mammals similarly responsible for such dependencies. But, these antis keep telling us that humans are superior to other animals, yet, somehow. treating human woman worse than other animals makes me think we’re inferior… or, am I not thinking about this ‘properly’? At least I know they consider women inferior to the violinist;

            My final thought experiment, at least. When antis claim that a fetus is a person, with the same awareness, consciousness that born humans have, they are, by default, claiming that intent no longer matters when determining innocence. When one is ‘aware’ one typically has the capacity to be innocent or guilty. However a fetus has no intent. So, for all things to be equal, in the way that antis claim they should be, at least, aren’t we saying that intent no longer matters when determining whether one is innocent or guilty? But, since a fetus directs the processes of conception, shouldn’t it be declared guilty even though it lacks intent? Yeah, these people don’t tend to think things, through, do they?

            Yeah, they like to talk a lot about how the fetus is a separate individual but never seem to realize that if it were a separate individual abortion would not be the controversial subject it is. See, antis seem to have so many inherent contradictions in their beliefs, some just happen to be more subtle than others (like their anti-contraception, -comprehensive sex ed agenda).

          • eroteme

            Very well thought out, Are.

            I like this part:

            See, the way they interpret things means that abortion is always
            wrong, and if abortion is always wrong because it acts on the fetus’
            body, then pregnancy is always wrong because it acts on the woman’s body.

            Fuck, isn’t pregnancy wrong because it acts on the fetus body?? (epigenetics)

            I mean, let’s just go down the fucking rabbit hole, eh?

            It cuts off the umbilical cord supply, it removes the placenta, etc…Therefore, how far removed from ‘actively killing’ do we have to get before we are simply letting a fetus die?

            Exactly. If fallopian tube removal is moral, then detaching the placenta should ALSO be moral. Both = unhooking.

            If it were the responsibility of the woman then it is not something that would occur in ALL eutherian mammals

            EVOLUTION

            But, since a fetus directs the processes of conception, shouldn’t it be declared guilty even though it lacks intent

            The woman also directs it, slightly, through epigenetics. Certain hormones are released from her body, which if not released, will hinder prenatal development.

            But yeah, if intent doesn’t matter, it should be guilty either way.

            ee, antis seem to have so many inherent contradictions in their beliefs, some just happen to be more subtle than others (like their
            anti-contraception, -comprehensive sex ed agenda).

            Yep, and it’s fun picking them all apart.

          • Arekushieru

            Epigenetics! I love epigenetics, which must be why I have a Facebook group called that! :)

          • Arekushieru

            QFT. When it comes to abortion, a woman must meet higher standards than is required of anyone else. Iow, social constraints and other issues are perfectly acceptable when it comes to exercising one’s rights. But pregnancy, you must prove that your life will be lost if you don’t have the abortion, but by that time it’s too late and that means, most of the times, if not all, it’s too late for the fetus, too.

          • eroteme

            Yep.

            The woman can ONLY get an abortion if she is literally bleeding to death, yet in other situations people are permitted to kill even if death isn’t imminent.

          • eroteme

            I pasted this bit to Ramanusia over on SPL because it’s that good.

          • Arekushieru

            Right to bodily autonomy is how we determine bodily integrity. That’s why, if left alone, pregnancy would be A LOT deadlier.

          • cjvg

            This is circular logic at its worst.
            But the prenate has no body to speak off, not until viability at least.

            Human bodies do not require full on 100% life support to continue their existence (unless there was an accident that requires temporary relief until the body stabilizes) And even then NO other human can legally be forced to provide that life support. You can not insist that a prenate has a body when its body clearly can not even perform the most basic function that any body can.

            This guy continues to use the same pattern that completely contradicts his own “reasoning”

            The woman owns her body and has no obligation to share the use of her body with anyone. Abortion is no assault on the prenates, it only acts on the womans body. The womans body expels the prenate, the prenate can not sustain the function of its body without use of the womans body. Clearly this is not the womans fault, she merely used her body as she saw fit

          • Arekushieru

            Precisely. These antis always like to say how you get to keep your organs like your uterus, your kidneys, etc…. But when you look at the other end of that it ALSO means that the fetus does not OWN your organs.

          • Arekushieru

            In fact, if you were allowed to get your kidney back, that would be like allowing a fetus to infringe on your bodily autonomy. Since the issue is about in whose body the organ is that is being used. Thinking of it another way, if the original owner of a kidney or liver needed a new one, they could not demand the kidney/liver organ back, not even to save their life, just as the new owner could not demand it in the first place in order to save THEIR life. Anything else, IS infringement of bodily autonomy.

            Seriously? “The donation has been made?” Great! Then someone can end their pregnancy at any time and the fetus and woman will come out alive!

          • eroteme

            I’m playing with them now, re thought experiments

            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/09/8-things-after-tiller-left-out.html

            LB thought I was serious at first. I have gone down the rabbit hole.

          • Shan

            I was just over there earlier today. Loaded fine for me and I use Firefox.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m sure it’s me/ my browsers. I also manage to lock myself out of my disqus profile on a regular basis. :/
            Probably for the best, at least with respect to my blood pressure.
            Keep up the good fight! You all amaze me with your patience :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            I use Chrome and haven’t had any issues.

          • expect_resistance

            I use my phone because my home computer internet access is about as good as dial-up. On my phone it’s glitchy.

          • expect_resistance

            Jill Stanak posts at SPL? And you are messing with her? I adore you even more. :))) I can’t stand little miss forced-birther Stanak. She’s like nails on a chalkboard.

          • eroteme

            Faye Fucknut Valentine

          • Ella Warnock

            In this case, I think ‘whackjob’ is entirely appropriate. My gob has been smacked many a time reading some of the insanity that spews out of that place.

          • Ella Warnock

            Lots ‘o cats over the last 25 years, no abortions. Well, except for those **hormonal birth control abortions** tee-hee (yes, I know that’s bullshit, but the ones who believe that get so apoplectic that you don’t care that you ‘aborted’ up to nine baybees).

            For someone who’s so ‘logical’ and ‘scientifically grounded,’ Faye’s packing a metric shit-ton of superstitious crapola into that preposterous notion.

          • fiona64

            What makes you think Jennifer has an abortion story, one way or the other?

          • Max

            And how does that pertain to you?

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s a fair question, Max.

          • fiona64

            It pertains to *all of us* in that you are asking some nosy questions that are none of your concern whatsoever on the obvious assumption that all pro-choice women must have had abortions.

            And you assume that because you’re an imbecile.

          • Max

            Class or trash which one are you today

          • eroteme

            Considering the fact that you refuse to answer a straightforward question, I am going to say that you are not the best example of ‘class’

          • Arekushieru

            Well we know which one YOU are, today, and it doesn’t start with C, end with s OR rhyme with glass.

          • Jennifer Starr

            This is beginning to get repetitive.

          • fiona64

            I’m sure you think that you’re terribly clever, Christine. This constant repetition just makes you look like an even greater simpleton.

            Answer the question that has been put to you.

        • eroteme

          It was a copy paste job

      • Ramanusia

        And most of those people don’t agree with you. It’s selfish to put your political notions ahead of the real lives of women about whom you know nothing. Most people on this planet disagree with you.

      • fiona64

        http://www.imnotsorry.net/

        11 years’ worth of testimony that contradicts your made-up BS.

        Just one story from the above link:

        When I was 13, I was raped and my family wouldn’t allow an abortion.
        I was forced to then give the baby up for adoption. At 16 I was
        assaulted by my boyfriend, and when I found out that I was pregnant he
        made sure that I wasn’t anymore. At 17 I got pregnant again, and I
        knew I wasn’t strong enough to get away from my abusive boyfriend and
        that he had decided he wanted a baby. I just couldn’t let that happen.
        I talked to a local clinic and they arranged for me to have an
        abortion and I went. There were a few protestors, but that didn’t
        bother me. The actual abortion itself wasn’t painful for me the worst
        part was the vacuum sound. I never even told him. After some time, I
        left and managed to steer clear from him, but at 19 I found myself
        pregnant and alone.

        I had just started a new relationship but was pregnant from a
        previous encounter. After just getting my life on track, I couldn’t
        imagine keeping this baby. My doctor said that I needed to think about
        myself and where my life was going and my partner was supportive she
        said that she would respect my decision either way. I decided that I
        needed to terminate the pregnancy and get myself together. This second
        abortion was comfortable in that the people involved were kind and
        informed. There were no protestors at this clinic and no one looked
        down on me for my decision. I don’t regret either abortion I did what I
        needed to help myself.

        My partner and I have been together for 4 years and going strong. I
        can’t imagine bringing a child into an abusive situation and subjecting
        them to the same type of childhood I had when I could barely keep
        myself together. If I had kept all of these children I would be a
        mother with 4 children from 12 to 6 and only 26 myself. Three of the
        four children would have been from an assault. I am glad that I had
        abortion as an option and that it was a right I could have. I only
        wish is that at 13 I could have made the decision to have an abortion
        without having others decide for me. I can imagine the fear women had
        before legal safe abortions. No one should have the right to say that I
        must have a child because I am pregnant. I am eternally grateful to
        the women before me who fought for my rights. Some people say if you
        have children now what will you tell them. I say that I will tell them
        that I made a decision that allowed me to come to a place in my life
        were I am not being abused and a place were I can have a child from
        love and not force.

        • Max

          Ummmmm ? And your serious too

          • fiona64

            your serious too

            My “serious too” what? Please complete the sentence.

      • eroteme

        In your opinion, should suicidal rape victims be tied down and force fed for 9 months so that they can be prevented from aborting?

        • Max

          There’s plenty of help and counseling out there.that killing a child only compounds the issue ten fold

          • eroteme

            Please answer the question. That was an evasive answer.

          • Max

            No that was the answer .you just don’t want to accept it

          • eroteme

            It was a straightforward question. Should a suicidal pregnant rape victim be tied down and force fed if she is starving herself to death?

            Yes or no?

          • Max

            Should your mother who is suicidal and doesn’t want to live anymore after her son was beheaded be tied down and force fed if she just wants to starve to death ? Would you step in and get your mother help?

          • eroteme

            So the answer is yes, you would not consider it a human right’s abuse to tie a suicidal rape victim to a hospital bed for 9 months and force feed her, gitmo style.

            Interesting.

            This shows what you think of women.

          • Max

            Comprehension being questioned here. So you would allow your dearly beloved mother to just go ahead and starve? Such compassion!

          • Ivy Mike

            Nice try at changing the subject. Now, answer the original question and cease the dancing.

          • Max

            You might want to get a lesson on analogies

          • eroteme

            It isn’t a good analogy, because we are talking about force feeding the woman TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE UNBORN HUMAN

            So, should someone be tied down and forced fed if they are suicidal to save the life of another?

          • Max

            It’s a great analogy. Should your mother be tied down and force fed to save HER life (you know the one who loves you ,the one who gave you life) if she is suicidal wouldn’t you want her to get help?

          • eroteme

            What Shan said. It’s an awful analogy, because you are talking about 1) saving someone from themselves vs 2) preventing a woman from committing suicide ONLY because it will harm a prenate

            Stop playing stupid.

          • Max

            Seems to me the suicidal girl dies along with the baby’s .that didn’t work !

          • eroteme

            Yeah well, that’s what she’s willing to do to escape her suffering.

            Forcing her to live is just a great way to torture her, on behalf of another, the fetus.

          • Ivy Mike

            Max, the scenario actually did happen.

            The woman was raped and impregnated. She pleaded for an abortion, up to threatening suicide. The authorities denied her the abortion and had her placed under restraints and force-fed until she was at 28 weeks’ gestation.

            Then, they performed a C-section on her, WITHOUT HER CONSENT, to deliver a preemie fetus.

            This occurred mere months ago, in Ireland. Same country that allowed a woman to die rather than complete the miscarriage she was having, so they could “save the baby”(both mother and baby died).

            There are numerous other horrors associated with your movement’s policies, many of which can be found on this site.

            How about a brain-dead woman kept on life support solely to gestate her fetus (which itself was doomed)?

            This is where your policies lead, inevitably. That you feel that these outcomes are worthwhile tells me you have no place in the 21st century, and that the 19th would have problems with you.

          • redlemon

            Getting help and force feeding are two totally different things.

          • eroteme

            The prisoners at Gitmo were “helped” I guess!

          • L-dan

            And when the help that will actually, you know *help* her is an abortion?

            I mean…they freaking did major abdominal surgery on her against her will for the sake of another person–how is that remotely justified? “we don’t care that you don’t want to be cut open, we’re doing it anyway. We’re subjecting you to the risks of surgery to save someone else, whether you like it or not.” There is literally no other circumstance where that is considered ethical, and it’s not ethical in this instance either.

          • Max

            Un born HUMAN! Major breakthrough! Pro death people never admit that ! That’s a start

          • eroteme

            Yeah so ?

            Human is NOT synonymous with person.

            A beating heart cadaver is human, but it’s no longer a person because the upper brain, from which the mind arises, is gone.

          • Max

            Thanks to your red hands

          • Jennifer Starr

            What is that supposed to mean?

          • Ella Warnock

            Appealing to histrionics.

          • redlemon

            Hold on, let me grab my smelling salts for this.

          • Ella Warnock

            I’ll fluff the pillows on the fainting couch.

          • fiona64

            I’ll distribute strands of pearls for clutching.

          • Max

            If the shoe fits ,WEAR IT

          • Jennifer Starr

            And what is that supposed to mean?

          • eroteme

            Obv a Nick Cave fan.

          • Ella Warnock

            Wear the red hands on your shoe that fits. Or something.

          • eroteme

            Appeal to nonsense.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I once got red hands while painting the trim in my bathroom. Not a good color choice in the end–I repainted after two months.

          • Ella Warnock

            What color did you end up with?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Forest green and beige walls–much better choice

          • Ella Warnock

            Nice :^)

          • fiona64

            Savita Halapannavar’s blood is on your hands. The blood of every woman who dies gestating an unwanted pregnancy is on your hands. The blood of every woman who seeks an illegal abortion due to TRAP laws is on your hands.

          • eroteme
          • Jennifer Starr

            Point? You have one?

          • Arekushieru

            Sorry, but we Pro-CHOICE have never said that a fetus is not human. But you are correct that you Pro-Deathers will never admit that fetus is a proper name for humans at a certain stage of development, so, yes, you never admit that a fetus is human.

          • L-dan

            Oh look…dancing away from the question…again.

          • Ivy Mike

            Or you could just spit out a “YES” or a “NO” instead of making up bad ones.

          • fiona64

            You’re the one who needs a lesson on analogies since the two things being compared must be, you know, analogous.

            Answer the fooking question. /”Braveheart” reference

          • Arekushieru

            Was it Mel Gibson’s character that said that? If so, I was highly disheartened (pun intended) when I found out that he was anti-choice.

          • fiona64

            Actually, no; it was Steven of Ireland who said it. “The Almighty says stick to the subject and answer the fooking question.”

          • eroteme

            Answer the original question, please.

          • Max

            Same shit different smell .

          • eroteme

            I thought you were the adult here? You’re not acting like it. tsk tsk

          • Ivy Mike

            All I smell is you inhuman fanatical lunatics.

            Your evasive, bullshit answers to this simple question are speaking volumes about yourself and your worldview.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Meaning that you can’t provide a response.

          • fiona64

            Still non-responsive.

          • redlemon

            It’s compassionate to strap someone down, force a feeding tube down their throat and/or put in a food lock in their stomach, keeping them under 24 hour supervision, locked up in something resembling a prison, and then forcing them to 12-72 hours of painful labor that may or may not end up with a surgery for something they don’t want, then scooting them out the door and saying “Have a nice life” while selling the newborn on an adoption market?

            Oh, that sounds DELIGHTFULLY compassionate! And you think abortion causes mental distress and regrets?

          • Max

            Thank you Long Island medium

          • redlemon

            So is that compassionate, yes or no?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think too much reality TV has gone to your brain.

          • Unicorn Farm

            It’s a shame that people like you are allowed to exist in rational society and, furthermore, are given a platform to speak via the Internet.

          • Max

            Ummmmm .there seems to be a lot of admitted psychological issues on this thread . Very understandable that there is so much anger .keep up your treatment .also Rachael ‘s vineyard and project Rachael are very good sources .night all

          • Unicorn Farm

            I have never had an abortion. Any mental health care I have received has been entirely unrelated to abortion or pregnanc. Rachel’s vineyard offers nothing to me. Answer our questions regarding whether a suicidal woman should be forced to gestate and then cut open against her will. It’s a yes or no question. If you had the time to type out this word salad, then you have the time to type out yes or no.

            Also, quit shaming women who have needed mental health care.

          • redlemon

            You were the one who brought up mental distress first with your admitted psychological issues and then decided to dismiss the psychological problems that are involved in pregnancy and forced gestation.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I have never had an abortion. Any mental health care I have ever recieved has been entirely unrelated to reproduction. Rachel’s vineyard offers nothing to me. Please kindly stop shaming women who have sought mental health care and answer our questions or GTFO.

          • fiona64

            there seems to be a lot of admitted psychological issues on this thread

            … on the part of the anti-choicers.

            There. Finished the sentence for you.

            Rachael’s Vineyard has nothing to offer this empty-nester mother. And believe me, should my tubal ligation fail, there will be an abortion that will NOT be regretted. I will not risk my life to gestate another pregnancy after the first one nearly killed me.

            Don’t like it, Christine? Tough shit.

          • redlemon

            So how else would one force feed a person? Do you think nurses just shovel food into someone’s mouth? Do you think someone with an unwanted feeding tube wouldn’t pull it out without restraints and/or supervision? Do you not think that being locked in a room would resemble a prison? Is labor not painful? Is follow-up counseling covered under all insurances?

            No, do tell. How would you go about force feeding your dear mother?

          • eroteme

            What redlemon said.

            Do you think, in your sick and skeevey mind, that it’s compassionate to treat a suicidally depressed rape victim like a hardened terrorist?

            I am wondering what is wrong with YOU.

          • Ivy Mike

            Anything to avoid that direct answer, huh? Starting to see just how bad it makes you and your ilk really look, or just seeing how that scenario is where your hoped-for world leads?

          • Shan

            That’s not a very good analogy. The rape victim is starving herself in protest because the actual help she wants in her situation is to be un-pregnant and *nobody will help her* that way. The kind of “help” you’re thinking of offering, Max, is not the help she wants.

            The help the suicidal mom wants her son to be un-beheaded but that’s not within anybody’s power so, yes, if you don’t want her to die, she needs some OTHER sort of help.

          • Max

            That didn’t work .try again apparently you never experience someone suicidal regardless of the circumstances .help is always on hand for these very disturbed people. Most good people want to save lives not destroy them. How in the world do you know with concrete face that this is not “the help SHE wants ” are you the Long Island medium ? Yes thought so .

          • Shan

            eroteme was referring to an actual recent case of a suicidal rape victim who was refused an abortion.

          • Max

            I’m well aware of the story.

          • fiona64

            Then answer the goddamned question you were asked.

          • Max

            There are many anger management classes out there .take advantage please

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s still not an answer.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Answer the question you were asked. Yes or no: do you believe that woman should have been strapped down, force fed, and forced to gestate, and then cut open to deliver a barely viable fetus? Yes or no?

          • fiona64

            I’m not angry, I’m disgusted. Answer the question.

            Maybe *you* should take anger management classes, since you are foaming at the mouth at the idea that other women might take advantage of the same choice *you did.* Because your abortion is moral, but other women are dirty whores.

          • eroteme

            I know five uterus owners on these forums who would rather die than give birth. If they couldn’t eject the fetus by literally stabbing themselves in the stomach they would shoot themselves in the head, overdose on drugs or jump off a bridge.

            HELP is NOT what they need. Counseling doesn’t always work. What they need is to NOT be pregnant.

            And you’re still evading.

            What if the HELP is the counseling that I assume you are speaking of, and the suicidal rape victim STILL refuses to eat, what then/ Will you tie her down and force feed her for the remaining months? yes or no?

          • Arekushieru

            Either I’m one of the five or I make it SIX, eroteme.

          • eroteme

            You’re #6

            I was counting most of the uterus owners from Patheos

          • redlemon

            You could probably add me to that list as well.

          • eroteme

            Yep, I do believe you were already on it.

            Me
            you
            Lizzy
            Baby Raptor
            ansuz

            And now Arek.

          • redlemon

            Probably one of the few times when suicide has gotten me on a list that didn’t involve a hospital bed or psychiatrist wait.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Add me.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m 7th.

          • L-dan

            Not sure I feel strongly enough to stab myself. But dropping into the sort of depression where you just never get out of bed and don’t eat? Yeah.

          • eroteme

            You are already figuratively stabbing yourself in the eyes/brain by reading Max’s drivel!

          • Max

            Unfortunately the “5 uterus your describing here are very disturbed individuals that require immediate counseling

          • eroteme

            Why? Because they don’t want to be enslaved? They don’t want to be forced to suffer 6-72 hours of painful torture like contractions, and have a basketball sized object shoved out a tiny hole?

            You think any of the above is FUN?

          • Max

            Your obviously trolling because you make no sense by that statement .night night

          • Jennifer Starr

            You really can’t conceive of why a woman would never want to be pregnant, can you?

          • eroteme

            Forcing someone to labour on behalf of another without remuneration and at great risk to health and life is the very definition of slavery, honey.

          • cjvg

            You god-awful coward!

          • expect_resistance

            No. Fail.

          • redlemon

            My “immediate counseling” informed me that it is in my very best interest to never continue a pregnancy ever again.

            I don’t think that not wanting gestational diabetes, asthma complications, and PPP make me a “disturbed individual” at all. I think it makes me quite normal and thankful for the option of abortion, should that ever arise.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why? Because they don’t want to be pregnant?

          • Max

            If that be the case then maybe they should take personal responsibility and keep their LEGS CLOSED

          • fiona64

            If that be the case then maybe they should take personal responsibility and keep their LEGS CLOSED

            And here you tried to tell us that anti-choicers are not about controlling women’s sexuality. Heh.

            Just because no one wants to f*** you doesn’t mean anyone else has to be celibate.

          • Max

            It’s called PERSONAL RESPONIBILIY

          • eroteme

            Abortion = personal responbility

          • Max

            Not normal night night.

          • eroteme

            It is normal. Women have been aborting since h.sapiens has been on this earth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually it’s quite normal.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You had one. How come you get too have an abortion but no one else does?

          • expect_resistance

            Abortion is very normal and had existed for thousands of years. Grow up.

          • fiona64

            Abortion has existed since before recorded history. It is indeed normal. Grow the fuck up, Christine. Seriously.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So is getting sterilized or using contraception. Or having an abortion.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Didn’t you have an abortion? Why are you allowed to have one when it suits you but no one else is?

          • Max

            It’s one thing to make a mistake when your not informed had I seen an ultrasound ? another.story today your are informed no excuse your kind already admitted the baby in the womb was human but in this day and age your angry that laws are being enacted that denies your right to kill the “human” get real sister!

          • eroteme

            You think women are stupid? They have always known that fetuses are human, but humans and persons do not have the right to occupy the body of another without explicit and ongoing consent.

            if Stephen Hawking had to use my body to preserve his life I would be within my rights to tell him to fuck off

          • Unicorn Farm

            You “made a mistake”? How stupid are you? What did you think you were doing? How were you “misinformed”? Why are you blaming other people for your regrets- take responsibility for your own actions, amirite?

          • Max

            Already did

          • Unicorn Farm

            Non responsive. Answer my questions. You can read, can’t you?

          • L-dan

            ‘My abortion is the only moral abortion’

            Is that on the drinking game?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You don’t even know the difference between “your” and “you’re”! Why do you think you can tell people how to live their lives. You don’t even know basic words.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What were you not informed of? What being pregnant means?

          • Arekushieru

            For one: It’s fetus in the uterus. For two: choosing to terminate a pregnancy has nothing to do with the right to kill. An abortion targets the pregnancy not the fetus, therefore it has nothing to do with killing. To say it does is pure misogyny (after all, when do you tell that man that he should take responsibility and keep the human cancer cells that take up residence in his prostate or the kidney stones that must be ejected through that tiny hole?), just as telling women to keep their legs closed is pure misogyny. After all, it’s not like you (can) tell a man, “Keep your legs closed ya dirty s1oot or otherwise we’re gonna make you gestate that unplanned pregnancy”.

          • fiona64

            It’s one thing to make a mistake when your not informed

            You were informed. I know you’re fairly uneducated, but you don’t get to pretend you didn’t know what you were doing. You got to have your choice, and you don’t want others to … because your abortion was ‘moral,’ but everyone else is a s1ut who needs to keep her legs closed.

            Do you know what that makes you, Christine Smith? A flaming hypocrite.

          • eroteme

            Christine Smith was the troll who…

            Couldn’t compose a coherent sentence.
            Accused us of trolling…our own site

            How did she give herself away this time?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Her abuse of punctuation is what convinced me.

          • eroteme

            I must have missed it. Probably because I tuned out the incoherent word salads. I wasn’t even able to get past the first sentence of her reply to Mike.

          • fiona64

            Forensic analysis of writing style. :-) I knew that my university courses would come in handy for something other than shouting at the TV when “CSI” is on, LOL.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Basically she just changed her handle. It’s not even a new account.

          • Ella Warnock

            Atrocious grammar skills? Incoherent rambling? Random capitalization and punctuation? Inappropriate ‘lols?’ Evading every serious question asked of it? You name it, it’s all there.

          • eroteme

            Fuck,,,,,,, when you put it that way,,,,,,,,,,

          • Unicorn Farm

            It is interesting to me that ” personal responsibility” roughly translates into women being in the appropriate sexual position- ie, legs closed. You “pro lifers” are disgusting freaks.

          • Ivy Mike

            No, actually, it’s called misogyny. Which you have demonstrated with every post.

            Did you think we didn’t notice that you place no responsibility on the MALE in the equation?

            What a silly, immature idiot you are.

          • Max

            Really ? Of course there’s responsibility on the mans part.goes without saying .I’m on a thread with 90% women. I think it’s interesting that you would make that statement .when these new laws were enacted most of the pro death women are telling the men” to stay out of our uterus” where do you fit in here?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ivy Mike has no problem with minding his own affairs. Apparently we can’t say the same about you, now can we?

          • Max

            A very disturbed group of individuals here .not the psychological issues but the lack of value you put on the unborn .have a nice day

          • eroteme

            Nearly half of Americans are pro choice. They do not believe that zygotes and embryos are baybeez. By your reckoning, over 100 million Americans are psychopaths.

            Idiot.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Someone is disturbed here, Max–and it isn’t us.

          • fiona64

            A very disturbed group of individuals here .not the psychological issues but the lack of value you put on the unborn

            The disturbed one is *you,* Christine Smith, who thinks that women should be forced to gestate against their will … up to and including incarceration and restraints if necessary.

            You need more than mere counseling, sweetie.

          • Shan

            No, what’s disturbing is that people like you are so eager to assign “value” to the contents of every woman’s uterus. Which is so very easy because it comes at absolutely ZERO cost to you. You expect other women to, quite literally, bear ALL the cost of said “value” whether they want to or not.

            The only person who gets to assign any value to what’s going on in her uterus is the woman whose uterus it is.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            You understand that 70 percent of the unborn will never be born, right. So there is not a baby 70 percent of the time, right?
            But there is a woman 100 percent of the time, right?

          • L-dan

            You know, having an abortion when pregnancy and childbirth are not good ideas for someone is also personal responsibility. It’s not like they can just let someone else get the abortion *for* them.

          • fiona64

            PERSONAL RESPONIBILIY

            I’m not sure what responibiliy is, Max. Could you try typing in English?

            BTW, you can have some mind-bogglingly good sex with your legs closed.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh Jebus, not ‘legs closed.’ That’s a double tequila shot in the drinking game, and it’s only 5:20.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I could use a margarita. Unfortunately all I have is a bottled water ;)

          • Jennifer Starr

            And maybe you should mind your own business, conduct your own life and allow others to conduct theirs.

          • eroteme

            Slut-shaming is not a valid anti-abortion argument honey.

          • redlemon

            I’ll get right on telling my husband that.

            Then, maybe we’ll have some ice cream and risky sex.

          • Max

            Don’t forget the condom or whatever your personal responsibility is .night night

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’re beginning to sound like a broken record, Max.

          • Arekushieru

            Most women who have had abortions used some form of contraception. The ones who didn’t probably had little to no access to contraception, others had no education on how to use contraception through comprehensive sex ed programs or were given falsified information (it just recently happened in one of the more liberal cities, my city, in Canada, so don’t tell me it doesn’t happen, there) through abstinence only classes so didn’t dare to bother. This not only applies to women who DID NOT use contraception but to those who did. Finally, AS I’ve said, MANY TIMES, most women who have had abortions were also married and had children, already, just like my mother was (do you think THESE women were uneducated about contraception in any way?).

          • fiona64

            Don’t forget to mind your own fucking business where other people’s sex lives are concerned.

            Or are you a creepy little peeper on top of everything else?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Like you did? Fuck you.

          • eroteme

            If that be the case then maybe they should take personal responsibility and keep their LEGS CLOSED

            And if they are raped? Still gonna slut-shame them?

          • expect_resistance

            Of course he’s gonna slut/shame as he’s fappin-off.

          • expect_resistance

            First, shut the hell up. Second, you can have sex and get pregnant with your legs closed. Talk about immature and ignorant, you fit that description.

          • Ivy Mike

            And, there it is. Right on cue.

            Max, you are a sick, twisted shell of a human, bereft of any empathy or compassion. You worship a mere idea, an abstract, rather than real, actual people. You’d sacrifice the real for the abstract.

            IOW, you are best suited for the early Middle Ages.

          • Arekushieru

            Let me spell this out for you, real clear, honey. I am A.S.E.X.U.A.L. Y’know what that means? That I am not interested in having sex with anyone, whether male OR female. And I have had precisely ZERO sexual encounters, that includes masturbation. So, y’know that that, in turn, would mean that I have had precisely ZERO unintended pregnancies. If women who have abortions are irresponsible because they didn’t keep their legs closed, so are so-called Pro-‘Life’ women who simply get pregnant unexpectedly. Not only that, there are Pro-‘Life’ women who believe only their abortions are moral abortions. They do not ‘regret’ their abortions (as we know perfectly well you would LIKE us to believe) so much as they protest to make abortion illegal, get pregnant unexpectedly, have an abortion on the sly, and then return to protesting. ALL of which makes ME, a Pro-Choicer, much more responsible by your logic, than any one of your own. DARN.

          • fiona64

            Not only that, there are Pro-‘Life’ women who believe only their abortions are moral abortions.

            Max, aka the previously-banned Christine Smith, is one of that subset.

          • L-dan

            Huh. And those rape victims you’re being evasive about who would rather starve themselves to death than give birth, is that your answer to them as well? That they need counseling for their strong desire to not be pregnant and they should have kept their legs closed?

            Aren’t you a fine specimen.

          • lady_black

            No thanks. YOU keep your legs closed.

          • fiona64

            Why should someone who doesn’t want to have children have to have counseling?

          • Unicorn Farm

            No one here (except you) is a “disturbed” individual. Shut the fuck up with that shaming language. Sometimes people require mental healthcare the same way they require physical health care. You can shut the fuck up, because you think it is ok to force women to bear children against their wills. Forcing anyone into slavery would make them suffer mentally.

          • Ella Warnock

            Whoa, waitaminutehere, I thought my uterus owns me! That’s what all the forced birth professional sciency embryologist-type people tell me, anyway.

          • redlemon

            Nope, help is NOT always on hand. Help is if you’re lucky. Help is if you find a bed. Help is if you have insurance. Help is if someone is around you and you aren’t left alone. Help is having people around you who know what the right thing to say is.

            I seriously doubt you have ever been around someone who was suicidal. Take it from a psychotic, occasionally suicidal person, we will attempt every way we can and we will resent you with every fiber of our being for “giving” help if we don’t want it. It takes weeks, if not months, of being removed from a situation to remove that resentment. Force feeding is only going to breed resentment because it’s not help and it’s not a removal from the situation.

            PS- pregnancy caused my last suicide attempt. As in, I gave birth and then became suicidal.

          • eroteme

            No shit. I wish ansuz was here to explain as well.

          • redlemon

            As my husband once told me, “I can’t stop you from suicide. I can hope that you’ll listen to me, I can offer any and all help that I can, and I WILL get you to an ER if I find you hurt, but I cannot stop you from buying alcohol and overdosing in a hotel somewhere. I cannot lock you in this house.”

            He’s been through it a couple of times with me. Honestly, I think that’s the only “right” thing ever said to me when I get suicidal.

          • Max

            Please continue on the path of consistent counseling .peace of mind and health to you

          • redlemon

            I just adore how you ignore the points that help isn’t always available for everyone. Ignore the problems and maybe it’ll all go away!

          • expect_resistance

            Also, if you’ve never had to struggle with severe depression and mental illness please shut the hell up. I’ve dealt with it most of my life and there are no simplistic answers.

          • Unicorn Farm

            +1,000,000. I was lucky enough to get the help I needed when I really needed it, at least for the most part. People who act like mental health care in the US is remotely adequate are fools. Max can kiss my ass and stfu.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks. :) it’s reassuring to be understood.

          • eroteme

            You watching my convo on SPl with that Blueberry asshat?

            She is arguing that anorexics are so mentally ill that they can’t make ANY decisions, such as the decision to have sex.

            I am taking her down the rabbit hole, of whether or not zygotes = babies, and if amenorrhea = zygote/baybee killing.

          • expect_resistance

            Sure am, upvotes all the way baby. Go get em.

          • Max

            “Pregnancy caused my last suicide attempt”. What does that have to do with anything here ? Unless of course someone made you have the child against your will. If not are you angry that you gave birth now

          • fiona64

            I know you’re not the sharpest tool in the shed, Christine, but RedLemon is telling you that she had major depression during and after pregnancy. Unlike your made-up PAS crap, partum and post-partum depression are *real,* documentable medical issues.

            Have you ever heard of Andrea Yates? Perhaps you should look her up. Post-partum psychosis is what made her kill her children. Her *doctor* told her not to have any more kids, but her forced-birther husband, using “logic” just like yours, pushed her to do so. The blood of those kids is on YOUR hands, and that of every anti-choicer who insists that women should be forced to have unwanted children.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What does that have to do with anything here?

            Not too bright, are you? Homeschooled by idiots?

          • eroteme

            Don’t piss on my nipples and tell me that its raining

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Pregnancy caused my last suicide attempt”. What does that have to do with anything here ?’

            Is this a joke? Pregnancy’s relation to suicide is the ENTIRE CONVERSATION.

            “Unless of course someone made you have the child against your will.”
            THAT IS WHAT ‘PRO-LIFERS ARE TRYING TO DO. FORCE WOMEN TO HAVE BABIES EVEN IF IT WILL MAKE THEM SUICIDAL. YOU SUPPORT THIS.
            Do we all have to yell for you to understand? God you’re stupid.

          • redlemon

            Yeah, if you don’t know about postpartum psychosis, then you shouldn’t be spewing pro-life anything.

            But since you’re slow, I’ll spell it out for you: Pregnancy, even wanted pregnancy, has hormones. Hormones fall and crash after birth, sometimes interfering with psychological functions. This is called postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis. It’s actually fairly common. You can get it even with wanted babies. I wanted my daughter. I love my daughter more then your pro-life butt will ever know. That didn’t stop hormones from going BOOM and creating delusions that can lead to suicide.

            Did the simple sentences help?

          • eroteme
          • Max

            Yeah same thing with my niece .we wre able to get her the help she needed. The very fact that you love your daughter more than life is why your here today .God bless you .imagine if you chose abortion for her ? You may not be here right now ! God bless

          • redlemon

            Point flew right over your head, didn’t it? And your niece went through it yet you couldn’t connect dots between pregnancy and suicide a few comments above? Bullcrap, especially with how easily you throw around this “getting help” crap.

            And had I chosen abortion, I just wouldn’t have my daughter. I may or may not have had a different daughter at a later time. Maybe a son. Just like I wouldn’t have my daughter if I had had sex a week later instead of that night. Or if I had had sex at the exact right time a month earlier. Or if a different sperm had won. Or if I had a miscarriage. Or if I hadn’t met my husband in school. Imagine! If I had not adopted my cat, we never would have moved to a house and my daughter wouldn’t exist!

            And I wouldn’t have been nearly as suicidal if I had an abortion rather then giving birth. My delusions were hyper-focused around my daughter.

          • Max

            AND over your head baby

          • Jennifer Starr

            I imagine that she knows better than you about her own life and her own pregnancy.

          • redlemon

            You’d be amazed at what people know about my pregnancy that I never knew. /sarcasm

          • eroteme

            That’s cuz you are a dumb woman!

          • redlemon

            So tell me, what “help” did your niece need then? What sort of delusions? What medications?

          • Arekushieru

            Are YOU the suicidal person? Yeah, thought so.

          • Jennifer Starr

            with concrete face that this is not “the help SHE wants “

            The fact that the pregnant woman is telling you might be a pretty good clue. But let’s face it–you don’t want her to make the choice that’s best for her–you want her to make the choice that’s best for you.

          • fiona64

            All of this illiterate nonsense and you still haven’t answered the very simple question asked of you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Also–and this is off-topic, but just who is the Long Island Medium?

          • eroteme

            LIM is a grifter ‘medium’ with a reality show

            fake hair, fake nails, fake tan, skeevey as all hell

          • Jennifer Starr

            Thanks for telling me–I’ve never seen it.

          • eroteme

            I have seen clips on The Soup and it’s godawful

            http://henican.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/medium.jpg

            she skeeves me

          • expect_resistance

            Depression, more specifically clinical depression is a disease. Mental health care in the U.S. sucks. It sucks even worse in other parts of the world. For family and friends of someone who killed themselves the guilt is horrible. So shaming them for not doing enough is awful. Please stop with your asinine analogies it’s not helping your argument.

          • Ivy Mike

            Thanks, from someone still dealing with a decade of depression.

            I waited far too long to seek help. I was ashamed; there are things you simply don’t speak of to your macho buddies. I had to wait until I was retired, and near the end of my rope.

          • eroteme

            If i was forced to give birth, let alone forced to give birth to a rape pregnancy, I would kill myself faster than you can blink, and arresting me and tieing me down to a hospital bed would ONLY result in making me even MORE determined to whack msyelf.

            Fuck you

          • cjvg

            You are completely ignoring that the suicidal rape victim can be “cured” immediately by being given the abortion she wants!. She is only starving herself because she does not want to be pregnant or be forced to give birth to this rape product! So yes, you are attempting to murder a living breathing woman because it makes you feel better

          • Arekushieru

            Excuse me? I have a condition called dysthymia. while it refers to a lower form of depression, it’s also a condition that mainly affects the thyroid, meaning I’m also at greater RISK of developing depression. Your posts do not, in ANY way, inspire healing for me. In fact they do the exact OPPOSITE. And many of the women on here have already told you that they’re struggling with depression. So, maybe, just MAYBE, you should fucking listen to their advice for once, and back the fuck off of a subject you obviously know nothing about.

          • lady_black

            She ASKED for an abortion. No medium needed.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, it’s a horrible analogy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Should your mother who is suicidal and doesn’t want to live anymore after her son was beheaded be tied down and force fed if she just wants to starve to death ?

            Actually, in the Elizabeth Bouvia case, the courts ruled that being tied down and force-fed constituted battery. http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/bouvia.html

          • fiona64

            Still non-responsive to the question you were asked.

          • lady_black

            No one should be tied down and force-fed. EVER.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Tying someone down and force-feeding them is not helping them.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            That is not an answer. Answer directly YOU COWARD.

          • Ivy Mike

            Telling people what they really believe about that situation exposes anti-choicers as the medieval, psychopathic fanatics they are, in a way that is obvious even to themselves. In fact, it shows them all too much about their own beliefs.

            They don’t like to answer it directly, because it not only makes them look bad to others, but starts them questioning their own beliefs. It’s why there is such song and dance around it.

            You hear anything but a straight answer…rape-pregnancies don’t happen, most women want the child, they just need “counseling”(preaching), the body “shuts that whole thing down”, etc. Never a straight yes or no.

          • fiona64

            The question was very straightforward, requiring a simple yes or no answer. What you wrote had nothing to do with the question.

          • lady_black

            No “Max.” That is not the answer. The answer would be “YES” or “NO” only.

          • Ivy Mike

            That was no answer, it was dancing around what you really think.

          • fiona64

            Non-responsive. Answer the question.

          • Ivy Mike

            Evasion noted. So, we’ll put you in the category of “the woman should be forced, by all available means, to gestate and birth. This includes, but is not limited to, physical restraint and force-feeding.”

            Don’t try that bullshit about “help and counseling”. You STILL would face women who would tell you that they didn’t want to gestate or birth a rapists’ baby, under any circumstances.

            I always wonder what you people would actually do if someone you were “counseling” (translation: preaching at) simply said,”Nope, sorry, I’m not carrying this pregnancy and I want it gone soonest. That’s final.”

            Don’t tell me you wouldn’t start thinking about those restraints. Or, that you didn’t consider that that’s where your whole scenario ends. Don’t forget, IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

          • eroteme

            o, we’ll put you in the category of “the woman should be forced, by all
            available means, to gestate and birth. This includes, but is not limited
            to, physical restraint and force-feeding.”

            shades of gitmo

          • Arekushieru

            One of our citizens was released from there, a few years back.

            Omar Khadr. It is too bad that they haven’t transferred him to a minimum security facility, yet. When he does get released he will be coming to Edmonton, my city. I just hope no one tries to hurt or kill him.

          • Ivy Mike

            “…that killing a child only compounds the issue ten fold”

            Your kind asserts this nonsense often. Never, however, do any of you provide a shred of evidence for it.

            Science, however, has provided us with peer-reviewed studies that show that the most common emotion experienced by post-abortive women is relief. Thus, we can easily dismiss your assertion.

            You do understand, do you not, that in the real world, very many women, impregnated via rape, would do anything possible to terminate the pregnancy, right? That your preaching-disguised-as-counseling would be laughably ineffective, right?

            Now, how about you explain why you think that raped women should be chained to beds, force-fed, and unwillingly C-sectioned?

            As a bonus, explain how that treatment is NOT “compounding the issue tenfold”?

          • Max

            Your obviously very young .at some point you will hit a wall

          • Ivy Mike

            Uh huh. Kid, I’m 46, have a wife of fifteen years, three kids, and did 20 years in the US military, honorably retired.

            See how smart and insightful you aren’t?

          • Max

            You WILL hit a wall at some point . Obviously protecting something here

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why should he hit a wall?

          • eroteme

            Driving blindfolded?

          • Ella Warnock

            I hit a wall once. Had the car in reverse instead of drive. Luckily I wasn’t accelerating much. ;-)

          • L-dan

            Yeah, I hit the corncrib door sliding on ice. I’d just gotten it back from the body shop after having the front fixed due to my first ever accident.

            Let me tell you, doing that, in front of my mother, who had paid for said body work, made me feel way worse than my abortion 20 years later.

          • expect_resistance

            Like he’s going to hit the “wall” if anti-choice/forced-birther bullshit.

          • Ivy Mike

            Kid, I have endured horrors you could only imagine. I have visited every continent on this planet, excepting Antarctica. I have been involved in four separate wars. I have endured some of the military’s toughest training.

            I have also had the privilege of watching all three of my children be born. I can tell you, my wife endured more than I ever did, and I have been tortured.

            Your statement above reveals nothing so much as your own arrogance, self-righteousness, and narcissism.

            To me, your pride and bravado is nothing but amusing…I saw it from every recruit and boot camper I trained.

            You are a joke.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m sorry for what you went through but great post.

          • Ivy Mike

            Thank you.

            I did what I had to do. I lived. That’s all.

          • cjvg

            Queue the completely nonsensical reply from max right about here.
            Great post, there is just not much anyone can say in the face of those reality’s. Of course that is spoken from a standpoint of logic and reason so who knows what max will come up with!

          • L-dan

            Seriously. I have a very hard time believing this guy would have had a 37 year old kid. There’s nothing that mature in his writing.

          • Arekushieru

            Claims, as per usual, to be female.

          • L-dan

            Ah, I must have misread above. Running on 4-5 hours of sleep a night this week. ^^

          • Max

            Listen “kid” I have quite a few yrs on you first off .secondly you can now get off your high horse .your not the only one on this planet with a story.you think your life experience makes you an expert on abortion ? Abortion is “the death ” of an unborn human” many many women have been through some very extreme situations that have led them to making the decision to abort their child .it doesn’t make it right.Laws were created that allow this horror to continue .what you bought into here was the devils lie .YOU were sold a bill of goods.in case you haven’t noticed ,almost 100% of the people on this thread are deeply depressed ,angry ,hateful and loaded with issues.do you think there a slight connection ? Unequivically a resounding yes! Now you can take your all around life experience which means NOTHING to me when taking a life from the womb is an issue far more important and the lifelong repercussions of it .your just another person on this thread with an axe to grind on abortion for your own deep reasons .i don’t condem anyone for aborting their children .i condem the laws that allow it and the arrogance of the people that have bought into this lie

          • redlemon

            “do you think there a slight connection ?”

            No. In case you haven’t actually read anything we are saying, many of us have never had an abortion. (And, once again, pregnancy CAUSED my depression and issues. Gonna keep ignoring that? When are we outlawing pregnancy?)

            And, if you believe that merely supporting abortion rights makes a person “depressed ,angry ,hateful”, prove it. No anecdotes, use data to back up your claims. Show your work.

          • fiona64

            deeply depressed ,angry ,hateful and loaded with issues

            Sounds like ever single anti-choicer I’ve ever encountered.

            the arrogance of the people that have bought into this lie

            Arrogance like yours, you mean? Wherein you tell us that you made YOUR choice, because it was a case of need, but everyone else who doesn’t want to be pregnant should keep their legs shut (you used those exact words)?

            The *lie* is that forced gestation is ‘healing.’ The *lie* is that abortion is more dangerous than pregnancy. The *iie* is contained in every one of your illiterate, beef-witted posts.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What in the world has punctuation ever done to you?

          • fiona64

            I have begun to think that she dropped out of school after the 8th grade. Seriously.

          • L-dan

            Snrk. Nah, we’re a cheery, friendly bunch when not dealing with trolls. You *might* be older than a few folks here, but not most of us, btw.

            Seriously. I haven’t grieved the fertilized eggs that never implanted and washed away, and I didn’t grieve the on that did and got kicked out by me. Why would I? None of them were people. They were as human as the rest of the tissue I slough off every month.

            We have an axe to grind about abortion because we don’t want a world in which people are chained to their uteruses, where those with doomed pregnancies are forced to continue risking their lives for nothing, where rape victims are forced to be brood mares for their rapists. Generally, we grind our axes to brandish in defense of women being actual *people* with all the rights that belong to people. They don’t suddenly get less rights because an embryo has settled in. They don’t get less rights because they opened their legs, or were forced to do so. The fact that you believe otherwise says more about your issues than ours.

          • P. McCoy

            If one reads your words, one can tell the religious indoctrination here, ratcheted to the level of brainwashing. It is akin to hearing a discussion about God from a discple of Waco, or People’s Temple. Unless one is a glutton for punishment, then discussing these matters in the hope of an intelligent debate is useless. Max is unwilling to accept that his regret over his abortion and anti abortion views can not translate into depriving others of the right to have one.

            Despite new technologies, ie; 3D ultrasound images of the fetus, which will be used by forced birthers to further their “it’s a child, not a fetus” mantra, one must resist and keep countering with our choice about physical autonomy of women etc;. Of course one can believe the opposite and not have an abortion based on one’s beliefs but brainwashed or not, one cannot deprive that chouce from others!

          • expect_resistance

            So you think rape victims should be forced to give birth? That’s messed up.

          • cjvg

            Do you realize how physically and mentally taxing pregnancy is? Are you here arguing with a straight face that forcing a woman to go through childbirth when she abhors the mere thought of it is somehow healing? You are a rapist!

          • Arekushieru

            As I’ve said many a time, in response to comments like hers. Andrea Yates.

      • Arekushieru

        No, that’s what YOU and YOUR ilk would like everyone to believe. And every woman who has reported feeling regret from abortion has almost, if not, always attributed it to pre-existing circumstances, stigmatizing and shame from antis and/or being coerced into abortion (which is what WE oppose, not you).

      • expect_resistance

        I don’t regret having an abortion.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        You did not have an abortion. STFU you ingrate drama queen. You skeeve me.

  • Ivy Mike

    I also like how easily they pass bad information, even that which is easy to check or debunk with a simple Google search.

    On this very site, we have in the past week been told, with a straight face, that…

    Contraception causes abortions
    Sex education is useless to prevent unwanted pregnancy
    Abortion is never medically necessary
    No fetal anomalies necessitate abortion
    Gestation and childbirth are much safer than abortion
    Pregnancy and childbirth are easy
    Contraceptives are not medicines
    Women who obtain abortions are “victims”

    All of this, told as fact, with no citations provided and constant, extensive debunking. Yet, they are repeated on every thread the forced-birthers choose to infest.

    • Ramanusia

      Try doing a google search though, you have to wade through acres of the astroturf courtesy of the echo chamber, you’ll get pages and pages of search results with the identical propaganda.

    • anja

      That’s because they don’t care about truth, facts, honesty, & respect only ending abortion at ANY COST.

      • nettwench14

        Really their brains can’t handle logic or truth. All they are capable of is cut and paste. Ad infinitum. They really think repeating the same crap over and over is going to hypnotize people into the same lock-step irrationality they live with.

    • nettwench14

      Excellent post.

  • eroteme

    They want women to be harmed by unsafe at home abortion. Misogynists.

  • lady_black

    Well, bitch… you FAILED. But what can you expect from a failure than fail?

  • Dez

    Now women have to cross the border to get unregulated drugs from strangers with no medical experience or knowledge. How is that better than a woman get quality care from an actual medical doctor? And the “pro-lifers” complain about Gosnell but are causing exactly the same situation that will make more of him. Guarantee we will hear about another Gosnell thanks to people like Ms. Tobias and their (pro-life/christian) agenda.

    • eroteme

      Its a catch 22. They force women into an unsafe situation, then claim that they must ban abortion to protect women

      • StealthGaytheist

        Meanwhile you don’t hear them crying about the 1,000 women who die every day due to pregnancy and childbirth.

        • Max

          Spare me ! 1000 women who die every year from pregnancy? Really ? That’s up to the medical community to decrease these very very small odds which they do ,but no mention of the millions of babies purposefully being shredded from the womb? What a joke

          • lady_black

            No babies are ever involved in a safe, legal termination of pregnancy.

          • Max

            Righto lady black !no a babies are safe in legal termination of pregnancy

          • Jennifer Starr

            Translation into English, please.

          • Max

            Righto lady black ! No babies are safe in a legal termination of pregnancy .there happy now?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No babies are involved. That’s what Lady Black said. I think you need to work on your reading comprehension a bit.

          • Max

            You know I have been on this thread for 2 days .i have seen hate beyond ! not just anger .its not a wonder to me that you all are so screwed up . It’s a shame you have no other outlet in your life but hate and a pro death mentality on a pro death thread And no Jennifer ,lady black was saying no babies are ever involved in a safe legal termination of pregnancy because 1) they ARE involved 2) there not safe 3) ,they have been destroyed .night night darling

          • eroteme

            I love you and I want you to have my babies. Even if it kills you.

          • expect_resistance

            But wait, I love you and want to have your babies. …. I feel used and cheap.

          • eroteme

            Christine never accepted my offer. I guess she is too selfish to have my babies?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No. They’re not involved at all. Reading, Christine–learn how to do it.

          • Max

            Destroyed !

          • Jennifer Starr

            Your brain?

          • redlemon

            I think she shorts out after her oh so clever arguments don’t work and then just starts with what she believes are oh so clever insults and flounces. I imagine her staying up all night, imagining new arguments for tomorrow.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I think this has become a bit of an obsession with her.

          • eroteme

            She is either a teen or is suffering from dementia.

          • redlemon

            The bad grammar is fake. If you go through the mass of comments, you begin to notice that a few don’t have the same “signature” bad grammar of a period before the punctuation and many are significantly better written. So I bet it’s a sock and she occasionally “forgets” the bad grammar.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Last time she blamed her iPad.

          • redlemon

            I could see some occasional bad grammar on an iPad, but unless your iPad is majorly broken, it shouldn’t be so consistent. And if it’s so broken that you can’t get your point across, one should not be accusing others of having poor reading comprehension.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very true.

          • eroteme

            I haz bad grammar when I type on my phone, but never anything that is incoherent.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It also has occasionally posted on the Operation Rescue website as both Max and Christine.

          • expect_resistance

            I could type a lot better on an iPad. And reading on a phone screen sucks. She has no excuses.

          • expect_resistance

            I remember that. I am almost always posting via phone but try to use punctuation and correct spelling.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s possible that we could be talking to two people–perhaps husband and wife who use one Disqus account? That would explain changing the name from Christine Smith to Max.

          • redlemon

            That’s always possible. However, if true, I am extremely skeptical of the education level of the bad grammar posting person. Even people with terrible grammar don’t regularly use spaces in front of periods, drop commas on a regular basis, and have glaring syntax errors. It’s one thing to be bad at grammar. It’s quite another to be absolutely so bad that you can’t even get your point across and fail at the basic grammar system.

            Or, as my Professor once said, “Your grammar is so bad, Sister Mary Martha would have kicked your future self out of college back in third grade”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Good points there.

          • eroteme

            I think it exists just to troll. Somehow it believe that it is fighting the good fight by coming across as an idiot.

          • Jennifer Starr
          • redlemon

            It just feels so forced. I’d expect a teenager to use slang, change “be” to “b” and “for” to “4”, misspell words and use improper commas. I could even see the your/you’re mistake plastered everywhere. That’s common (and arguably sensible, but that’s neither here nor there) in language evolution of common use, especially in our tech age. It drives professors, teachers, and older folk NUTS, but it makes sense on some level of informal conversation.

            But these kinds of grammar mistakes? They jump out at me as a sign of brain damage/neurological problem, forced and fake and trying to pretend to be someone else, or someone who really doesn’t have the education that they’re claiming but thinks they’re being clever. Considering the non-answers, false arguments, and just general stupid behavior, I’d go with one of the last two.

          • fiona64

            I think she has some sort of developmental issue. I’m not kidding. Her claim that she didn’t understand what abortion was when she had one only makes sense if you look at it from that perspective.

          • L-dan

            That sounds about right. And she thinks we’re the hateful ones with anger issues? 0_o

          • expect_resistance

            Yes and his arguments. I tried to reply to him and got flagged for spam. Wtf?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Max should be the one who’s flagged.

          • cjvg

            Please do look up the word choice and tell me what it means.
            You know why you are considered a joke? The FACT that you have openly admitted that you are so ignorant of the reproductive process that you are unaware that pregnancy will leads to a baby. However that does not stop you from somehow feeling entitled to lecture those who never had a shred of doubt about that.

            And there is the FACT that you loudly and publically admit you had a choice and made the wrong one according to you! So now you feel entitled to demand that every single woman be forced have no choice other then those you determine she is allowed to have. You who self admitted to very bad decision making capabilities and who still regrets decision you made for yourself 37 years ago wants to subject all of us to your very poor judgment.

            You who loudly and openly professes his “respect” for life, and then scolds me as living in a dream world when I insist that respect for life necessitates promoting and passing laws Guarantying that every single born child has adequate housing, health insurance, food security, free education, etc.

            Yeah, somehow your judgment of others, your purported “respect” for life, and your insistence that women should not be allowed to have choices just does not hold much weight, not even with yourself

          • Max

            First and foremost I am loud and proud to tell you my experience due to my abortion has regret and always will but it’s a heathy regret (by the grace of God) that’s brought me to this passion against the laws that were created in killing life in the womb.”experience overrides theory” .every one of you on this thread has a vested interest on the abortion front or else you wouldn’t be here .there are so many causes out there and you chose this one .your vile hatred and anger towards me means nothing.the very fact that you have no tolerance for the opposite view of this debate shows more of a callous disregard toward people in general which brings us to disregard life itself.twist peoples words ,sugarcoat your own experiences,mock another viewpoint whether you like it or not fits very neatly with your disrespect for the unborn. Move along people .live your angry self loathing life cutting down people in any means that you may think lifts you higher .spinning and skewing statistics to create a fantasy word where killing our offspring somehow makes women more equal is incredibly ignorant ..no one deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the “moral” law which are written on the conscience of evey man or woman

          • Jennifer Starr

            there are so many causes out there and you chose this one

            Actually, I choose many causes. This is but one.

          • fiona64

            callous disregard toward people in general

            Sounds just like every anti-choicer’s view of women, who are too complicated for you all. It’s far easier to focus one’s emotions on the embryo, which is a tabula rasa onto which you can project your sad feelies.

            live your angry self loathing life cutting down people in any means

            You mean, the way you do when you say that if women don’t want to be pregnant they should keep their legs closed? That’s slut-shaming, sweetie, and that’s cutting people down.

            here are so many causes out there and you chose this one

            Just one among many, dearie. Not all of us are one-trick ponies.

          • fiona64

            Christine, if you had half a brain you would know that an embryo is not an infant. That’s what LadyBlack is talking about. All infants, everywhere, have been *born.*

            Do you have some sort of developmental issue? I am serious; most people understand these things pretty well.

          • redlemon

            You imagine yourself to be so clever with a reply like that, don’t you?

            Also, I’m not a prescriptivist grammarian. I am actually a descriptivist grammarian but you really, really need some third grade grammar lessons.

          • Max

            Is that all you have lemon head? Night night

          • redlemon

            Awww, I see some of that anger that you’re accusing us of!

          • Max

            Oops ,oh sorry thought it was lemon head .guess not

          • redlemon

            Oh come now, own up to your insults. None of this fluffy bunny “I was mistaken” stuff.

          • Max

            I actually meant it lemon head

          • redlemon

            You meant your apology so much that you managed to do it twice in less then 5 minutes?

          • Max

            Night lemon head

          • eroteme

            Childish.

          • Max

            Yes that’s right .cant handle insults ? Dot dish if you can’t take it .lemon face

          • Jennifer Starr

            The day you manage to make a clever or witty remark, we’ll throw a party.

            We’ll never throw that party.

          • eroteme

            Still childish.

          • redlemon

            Ooooo, there’s that pro-life compassion I keep hearing about!

          • expect_resistance

            And you say you’re the “grown up in the room.” Sure.

          • fiona64

            Dot dish if you can’t take it

            Are we talking about stealing polka-dotted china at this point?

          • redlemon

            Three times! Three times you accidentally made that mistake!

            Have you seen a doctor recently? That’s usually a sign of a neurological problem. I am worried for your health.

          • eroteme

            Not very mature. Also, hateful.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you are admitting that you can’t read.

          • Max

            Are you admitting you can’t either?. How much longer can you live with all this hate. No wonder you are all screwed up . Have fun ladies

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hate? Nah, more like hilarity at this point.

          • expect_resistance

            What hate? What are you talking about?

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, all of the hate is coming from you.

            I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m laughing hysterically at your inanities.

          • Max

            Oh sorry

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you know you just replied to yourself?

          • Max

            Yes .did you see the edit .guess not

          • Jennifer Starr

            Assuming you know what the word edit actually means, of course.

          • fiona64

            You lack the mental capacity to be witty, Christine. Just stop trying.

          • fiona64

            Read for comprehension, dumbass. SG was referring to *daily* deaths, not annual deaths. 1000 women die *every single day* due to complications of gestation and delivery. Not that you care; your “compassion” is saved for non-sapient, non-sentient embryos onto which you can project your emotional and existential angst. Actual born, sapient, sentient *women* are too complicated for you to care about.

            Abortion is significantly safer for women than pregnancy.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271

          • eroteme

            A woman who dies due pregnancy has lost her right to life. Since we cannot know which women might lose their lives due to pregnancy, we strip all women of, if not their actual lives, their right to life. And we do so by letting their own bodies kill them.

            You do not believe that women have the right to life. You are elevating embryos above women.

          • Arekushieru

            Exactly! They claim that fetuses have the right to life, but then ignore the fact that this right to life directly interferes with the woman’s (who should be more valuable than the fetus, anyways, regardless of whether it’s quantitative or qualitative value).

          • cjvg

            Beautiful

          • eroteme

            Credit where credit is due – TheDingus came up with the concept on SPL.

            Its a fantastic point, and is true. Equal individual rights before the law – by forcing women to give birth you are forcing them to risk life and limb, thereby denying their right, as a group, to be free from torture, slavery and death.

          • Arekushieru

            No, you and your ilk are the jokes seeing as you don’t EVER talk about the women who die from pregnancy and childbirth complications.

          • Arekushieru

            Also, it is your ilk that creates these dangerous situations. So, it is YOU who should take ‘responsibility’ for it. Oh, right, I forgot, you people like to talk the talk but not walk the walk when it comes to responsibility. My bad.

    • Ella Warnock

      She doesn’t ‘deserve’ quality care, she’s killing a baybee. The more honest of them admit they’d prefer she be critically injured or killed for it.

      • Ramanusia

        Most of them aren’t being that honest, they just can’t contain the hate.

    • Arekushieru

      Does the Dutch agency that helps women in places like Nigeria (?), I believe, have any ability to help these women, as well?

  • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

    The pro life movement has used every lie, every trick and every legal maneuver to enslave women and force them to give birth to unwanted fetuses. In fact for nearly 2 years the DSHS has refused to do as the legislature commands and consider new information regarding abortion. Why, because that information disproves the very foundations of the pro life movement.
    State law requires the DSHS to review and revise its booklet and online information to women seeking an abortion. Yet despite 2 years of requests, the DHSH has failed to review information or to do as the law requires and inform citizens when it is considering new information.
    Hiding information from the public during an election cycle is nothing but a cover- up. Abbott needs to stop the cover-up and let the people have the information they need to make an informed decision about the issue of abortion.

  • StealthGaytheist

    Douchebags.

    • cjvg

      Those actually have a function and a use, these guys…… not so much

      • Shan

        Not even that: douching is a BAD IDEA!

        • cjvg

          Oh, I’m not saying that it is good for you, I’m merely pointing out that they do have a actual function

  • Ivy Mike

    Has any so-called “Pro-Life” organization ever sponsored or otherwise promoted a law that did NOT have the piecemeal elimination of abortion as its ultimate end-game?

    Anything they ever propose should be viewed through this lens, no matter their claims.

  • Kris Weibel

    “Long term mental and emotional consequences”. What bullshit. Why not try “abortions cause cancer? Bullshit, all of the GOP rhetoric.

  • expect_resistance

    This IS about restricting access to abortion anything else they say is a lie. I just watched the video clip and want to scream.

  • http://aikenareaprogressive.blogspot.com/ jovan1984

    This was never about protecting anyone. This is all about controlling women’s lives from birth to death.

    • Arekushieru

      As always, Jovan, you are so right!

  • nettwench14

    These people think they can bully women into submission. It will never happen, and has never happened in the history of time. They might get short-term victories, but over time they will get blowback and people will despise their psychotic attempts to force other people to live lives by some script they dictate. Aside from the fact that these folks make it up as they go along, nothing they say has anything to do with reality. They lie, lie, lie, and think they will get away with it. They think most women are as stupid as they are.No freaking way!

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I realized something the other day. Roe v. Wade was an attempt to regulate abortion because the abortion situation was entirely out of control.

    Clergy were directing women to safe though still illegal abortion and advertising the referral service in the NYT.

    NOW was giving parlor teach-ins by nurses to instruct women in the art of ‘menstrual extraction’ and how to make the device to extract with.

    The JANE women’s collective was doing safe cheap abortions by the thousands.

    Nobody was waiting for the government to approve abortion. And there was absolutely no control at all. Everybody was doing illegal abortions – the Mafia, your local Nurse moonlighting, etc. It was a Vonnegut style circus.

    All by themselves, screaming they were moral, the forced birth cultists have deregulated abortion in America. I would be laughing my ass off except I remember what it was like the last time abortion was illegal. Even my Catholic Mother got an illegal abortion. We could have lost her. I know someone who lost her Mother at age 9 to unregulated illegal abortion. The back alley abortion is back. There will be no regulation on safety or time limits on when a woman can abort. Gosnell City is here.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/