Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast-Louisiana Director Resigns Amid Criticism


Melissa Flournoy has resigned from her position as director of Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast-Louisiana, following criticism from reproductive justice activists that she was an “example of the schism in work around reproductive rights.”

Flournoy had been with Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast-Louisiana for a year. During that time, she was involved in the push against anti-choice legislation by state lawmakers and the organization’s planned expansion of reproductive health-care services to New Orleans residents. In a post on her Facebook page, Flournoy thanked her friends at Planned Parenthood before announcing her resignation on Friday, August 15.

The resignation comes after remarks Flourney made following an August 13 screening of We Always Resist: Trust Black Women, during a panel discussion organized by Deon Haywood of Women With a Vision and Paris Hatcher of SPARK and Race Forward.

Kris Ford, a member of the Women’s Health and Justice Initiative, described Flourney’s actions as “rudely derail[ing] the entire conversation.” Ford says Flourney asked Haywood what she could “do about Katrina”—a reference to State Rep. Katrina Jackson (D-Monroe), the main sponsor of HB 388, which will likely close at least three of the state’s five abortion clinics. Flourney allegedly said that she wanted to “put [Haywood] into a ring and let you kick [Katrina's] ass.” Ford noted in her open letter to Flourney, “How is this helpful? Deon had told us about the police reports she sees where police officers describe black women as primarily ‘big,’ ‘black,’ and ‘angry.’ You turned around and did the same thing.”

What’s more, “[y]ou asked question after question, made statement after statement, and barely paused for Deon or anyone else to answer,” wrote Ford in her letter. “When she was able to sneak a word in edgewise, you cut her off again! This went round and around. You interrupted most of the people who spoke last night, including me.”

Melaney Linton, president of Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast, published a response to Ford’s letter in which she said that Flournoy made “comments and conducted herself in a manner not at all reflective” of the organization’s values and beliefs at the event. Linton added that Flourney’s conduct at the event was “absolutely unacceptable” and that “immediate action” would be taken.

“On behalf of Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast, I offer my sincerest apology to you and others who were in attendance,” wrote Linton.

Flournoy’s departure comes on the heels of criticism by reproductive justice activists of a New York Times article about Planned Parenthood and other reproductive rights organizations’ shift away from using the term “pro-choice.” The article erased “the long-term work of scores of reproductive justice organizations, activists, and researchers that have challenged the ‘pro-choice’ label for 20 years,” explained Monica Simpson of SisterSong Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective in an open letter endorsed by dozens of organizations and published on RH Reality Check. “Many of us received feedback from the New York Times reporter, Jackie Calmes, confirming that this history was not presented to her by the mainstream reproductive rights organizations with which she spoke,” said Simpson.

Cecile Richards, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, responded to Simpson’s letter, saying that Planned Parenthood valued the work of reproductive justice activists. “We appreciate that you push us to do this more, and to do it better. And we hear you when you say that we are not doing enough,” wrote Richards. “I am eager to meet with leaders of national women of color-led RJ organizations to formulate shared strategies that honor all of our strengths. I’m also eager to talk to you about the events of the last few weeks, and what we can learn from this experience going forward.”

Responding to the news of Flournoy’s departure, Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast released the following statement to RH Reality Check:

Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast is deeply disappointed in the events of the past few days. They do not reflect Planned Parenthood’s values or beliefs. We are committed to being a better ally to the reproductive justice movement and continuing a dialogue around how to do so. We have started to have meaningful conversations with organizational leaders, partners and allies. We are passionate about the important work that we do and realize that it is only through working together, as true partners and allies, that we will make progress to improving our communities. More than ever, we remain committed to our work in Louisiana. We will continue to partner with advocates and organizations in the communities we serve to ensure that every person who needs high-quality preventive health care is able to get it. We are committed to health care access across Louisiana and in particular to building our new health center in New Orleans.

Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast has not yet determined who will serve as interim director following Flournoy’s resignation, and is in the beginning stages of the decision-making process on how to move forward in permanently filling the position. The organization told RH Reality Check that it remains committed to the residents of the state.

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  • Moderately_Disgusted

    So what happens to the embattled NOLA health center while all this organizational disarray is dealt with? I hope there are some practical-minded people in charge…

  • Joan2

    What does Donna L’s comment have to do with this article? Is this a cut-and-paste she posts on every article?

    • Ramanusia

      She’s just showing us all that she doesn’t understand what the word “choice” means, and that she is very much in favor of forcing women to gestate against their will so that she can sacrifice her life and health to produce more products for the lucrative adoption industry, which nets her church billions so that they can silence the victims of pedophilia, as they provide a new crop of victims for their predatory priests.

      • Cactus

        She’s saying the exact same shit that every single “sidewalk counselor” I’ve had the misfortune of overhearing made part of their everyday spiel. Sad, really.

        • Ramanusia

          It is, and it needs to be challenged at every point.

          • Cactus

            Challenged, mocked, and frankly not given a platform, at least not here.

          • Ramanusia

            By here, you of course mean, this realm of reality? I quite agree.

          • Donna L

            pfffft…. you all are ridiculous. Do you EVER listen to what you say?? All saying same buzz words. Looks like you all are using the same play book. If this is the realm of reality Rama, your reality sucks.

          • Ramanusia

            And you’re a childish idiot without much of an education and whose allergy to the truth, facts and reality show that she doesn’t bother to pay attention to the utter nonsense she keeps typing.

            We’re using facts, not buzz words, that would be BS you keep posting, cackling about how science and medicine which proves your talking points to be utterly idiotic are somehow a conspiracy against you.

            This is the realm of reality and I know that reality, truth, facts and science are scary, possibly dangerous thing for someone so utterly allergic to facts, and yes it must suck very much for you to be so wrong, so foolish and so easily proved to be an utter moron.

            My reality is only marred by having such utter embarrassments to the human species like yourself, in it. Please Darwin yourself out of the gene pool, or if you’re already spawned, keep your distance to avoid infecting your offspring with your chosen form of complete idiocy.

          • Donna L

            ok…the world according to Ramen… the noodle head. You can only resort to degrading those who stand for truth and life… because you cant see that life is worth dying for. The facts here that women dying from childbirth is 3rd largest killer is bogus. You’ve never cited that. C-sections save lives. Abortions take lives. If someone doesn’t want to “gestate” they shouldn’t get pregnant to begin with .. It’s not an eternal sacrifice, but death is eternal – no going back, death is irreversible. You’ll find out when you get to the other side…whenever that is.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A woman may choose to continue a life-threatening pregnancy, but the choice must be hers. And while you may wish to emulate Gianna whatsherface, not everyone else does. Sacrifices like that should be voluntary, not enforced by law.

          • Donna L

            Why must every pregnancy be life threatening?? I had three ER c-Sections Many women do.
            Yes it’s a choice to carry on w gestation. Our bodies are made to do that. No male can. We are special creatures.
            I have more a chance of getting killed every time I get in the car than I do of dying from childbirth.
            Btw, where is the citation that childbirth is third leading cause of death in developed countries?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why must every pregnancy be life threatening??

            Whoever said it was? But there’s no denying that some are.

            Yes it’s a choice to carry on w gestation. Our bodies are made to do that. No male can. We are special creatures.

            Glad you know that you support a woman being able to make that choice.

            I have more a chance of getting killed every time I get in the car than I do of dying from childbirth.

            That’s you. And that’s why the only person who gets to make that decision about their pregancy should be the woman who is actually pregnant.

            Btw, where is the citation that childbirth is third leading cause of death in developed countries?

            That was not a claim that I made. Where are your citations for claims you have made?

          • fiona64

            Why must every pregnancy be life threatening?

            All pregnancies carry risk; whether or not those risks will manifest cannot be predicted.

            Btw, where is the citation that childbirth is third leading cause of death in developed countries?

            Second highest world-wide, dearie. Source already provided.

          • Ramanusia

            Ramen? So you admit that you’re an illiterate moron who can’t spell a name that’s right there in front of her? Somehow the utter intellectual laziness is not surprising coming from the author of the idiocies on this page. You’re the only noodlehead here, you twit.

            You don’t stand for truth or life, I degrade the hypocritical, hateful idiot who comes out with nastiness, while degrading those who actually do stand for truth and life, and medical facts, and human decency and compassion. We get it, these things are alien to you, thus you must lash out with all the intelligence your illiterate, blind noodle-headed idiocy can muster, which is not very much.

            What you actually mean is that life is worth you killing someone else for, because I notice you’re not choosing to die to keep someone else alive, keeping that extra kidney, those regenerating lobes of liver, all that skin, all that blood to yourself aren’t you, you (by your own standards) selfish waste of humanity.

            The only thing bogus here is your grasp on the truth or facts, the U.S. leads the industrialized word in maternal mortality, it’s rising you twit. The numbers don’t lie, ignoramuses who can’t grasp truth and who don’t care about life do.
            Do you need a cite? Look up maternal mortality rankings US, or the ACOG website, which references it or the Amnesty International page which addresses it as well.

            Who is talking about C-sections? Abortion does not take lives, it just doesn’t. It’s like saying that Chemotherapy and appendectomies and tumor resections take lives. It’s what stupid people say because they don’t understand what they’re talking about.

            They’re not choosing to get pregnant, so if they wish not to gestate, then they choose not to be pregnant, and making that choice is what we’re advocating for.

            What’s not an “eternal sacrifice”? Not having the condom break? Having the OCP fail? Making all the choices to not be pregnant and it happening anyway? Indeed death is eternal, just ask Savita Halappanavar how eternal her death is, when they wouldn’t save her from her wanted pregnancy that went horribly wrong.

            It’s certainly irreversible, and a terrible thing, which is why a woman would prefer not to risk death for an unwanted pregnancy when having an abortion is 14x safer.

            When I get to what other side, you hateful hypocrite? So much defense of truth and “life” on your part, you’re not degrading anything at with your moronic hate mired in lies.

            Even noodles in that empty skull of yours would evince a greater intellect than your comments indicate you possess.

            Correct your ignorance dear, and perhaps you won’t end up as some sort of Amoeba in your next life, intellectually it would be a step up, but still.

          • Donna L

            You seriously need to be on medication!
            “I degrade the hypocritical, hateful idiot who comes out with nastiness, while degrading those who actually do stand for truth and life, and medical facts, and human decency and compassion.”
            So you degrade yourself since you fit the mold.
            You just can’t handle a dose of your own medicine.
            If your not putting someone down, you’re not happy.
            Your are the self made judge of all. Queen of the world. Huge Narcissist.
            Go take some meds and chill out.

          • Ramanusia

            No dear, that’s you. What you’re doing right now is called “projection” its when people who are psychologically incapable of dealing with their personal issues pretend that others are suffering from them. It’s you that needs some medication and some nice time with a caring psychiatrist who can help you with many of your issues.

            You dear, you’re the hypocrite, you’re the nasty piece of work, you are the one I am “degrading” not me, you illiterate twit. All I needed to do to accomplish that degradation of you was to point out your general wrongness, and the posts on this page that show you to be an ignorant fool, who lack medical facts, who lacks human decency, compassion and who keeps getting caught in lie after lie.

            I fit no mold, you do. Again, I point to the things you’ve been foolish enough to post, where you jeer at medical facts, where you show your hate, where you show your basic lack of human decency and your numerous lies.

            You’re just not happy because your lies were called out, it’s you that can’t handle her own medicine, since you are the one that came out spewing nastiness, all I, and others did was point out your nastiness, point out your lies, and jeer at you for illustrating your ignorance and illiteracy time and time again.

            You’re the childish idiot who can’t read letters right in front of you, you “noodlehead”, i mean really?

            Um, again you’re here being a judgmental idiot, and somehow now you’re trying to pretend that I”m guilty the sins YOU display on this board?

            You are a huge narcissist, and a hypcrite.

            You take your own meds, and if you can’t handle a debate on facts, then don’t engage when you’re way out classed by people who have the education, grasp of language and an understanding of things your talking point have not prepared you to handle.

            You’re a complete embarrassment, grow up, correct your ignorance and see someone to deal with that self hating nastiness that comprises your pathetic self.

            I get it, you waded into a debate you LOST badly, you came out swinging with nastiness and you were spanked, slither away and nurse your wounds and accept your failure as a person.

            Bye now!

          • fiona64

            The facts here that women dying from childbirth is 3rd largest killer is bogus.

            Actually, it’s the *second* greatest killer of women. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs334/en/

            Quote: Maternal deaths are the second biggest killer of women of
            reproductive age. Every year, approximately 287 000 women die due to complications in pregnancy and childbirth, 99% of them are in developing countries.

            If someone doesn’t want to “gestate” they shouldn’t get pregnant to begin with

            Since all forms of contraception have known failure rates, your statement is asinine prima facie. If what you’re actually getting at is “if you don’t want to be pregnant, don’t have sex,” you are cordially invited to go to Halifax. Just because no one wants to f*** you doesn’t mean that others have to remain celibate.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What buzz words would those be?

          • fiona64

            All saying same buzz words</i.

            Sounds like an apt description of every anti-choicer I've ever encountered …

      • goatini

        And the children of poor women, especially single parents, are exactly the kind of children that priests prey upon. The parent(s) are so grateful for the “special attention” from Padre. Read “The Church That Forgot Christ” by Jimmy Breslin.

        • Donna L

          Goat, not sure why you brought the priests into the story, but if you compare numbers, you will find PP far exceeds any teachers, pastors, pediatricians, etc. when it comes to “preying on the poor” who are exactly the targets of Planned Parenthood, Goat.

          The poor need support, if they choose to “gestate” to full term. Unfortunately PP follows Margaret Sanger’s philosophy of “eliminating the unwanted, the poor and the minorities.” Planned Parenthood has quotas set for each office. Aurora, CO just got an award for exceeding “goal”. Wow, sounds more like a witch hunt for “gestating poor women” to get their children and hack them up for $$$$.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Aurora received no such award.

          • Donna L

            Denial. Photos online

          • Jennifer Starr

            Photoshopped and printed by Scabby Johnson. That’s why no real news outlet would pick up the story. Even people on the anti-choice sites were doubting its validity.

          • Ramanusia

            Because you, dear Donna are the handmaiden to the pedophiles of your church, who infect you with propaganda that you spew out.

            The numbers of which your innumerate self speaks show no such thing, PP doesn’t prey on the poor, the Church does, a bible in one hand and food/water/ or sword in the other. Who exactly are the targets of your frocked masters, Donna? Is it not the poor, who they’ve been exploiting, raping, molesting, abusing and robbing blind for thousands of years, when they weren’t enslaving or promoting genocide of course.

            The poor get support from PP if they wish to gestate to full term, they also get support from PP even after they’ve delivered, since they’re the point of access and where well-child and and well-woman visits happen. Unfortunately, neither PP nor Margaret Sanger ever held these beliefs of yours that you attribute with your out of context misquotation from your white power shelves.

            Please provide citations for this quota that have you so stunned to the point of utter imbecility.

            Wow, sounds like you’re indulging in the witch hunt, just as your churchy forebears did, to lie about women and lie about organizations that help them, thus keeping you and your priests from shaming and preying upon them as you did in Ireland. We know you get $$$$$BILLIONS$$$$ for your trafficking of children, and that the pedophiles you sell them to don’t get caught like those in Ohio, sadly for those children involved.

            Oh and the bodies and the bones of those women you pretend such compassion for in those homes for unwed mothers in Ireland are exposing just how disgusting, evil and nasty you and your church truly are.

          • Donna L

            I’m a member of the universal Church of Christ. You twit

          • Jennifer Starr

            Is that a denomination?

          • Donna L

            No

            Donna

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you know what the word ‘denomination’ means?

          • Ramanusia

            You’re quoting the propaganda created and funded by the Catholics and what’s the difference, aren’t you are xtians violating the teachings of your godking and your little book anyway?

            Realize who is putting those lies in your mouth, you moron.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Gestate is the correct word, and yet it seems to upset you somehow. Why is that?

          • Donna L

            Gestate does not upset me. It’s not a word commonly used. Never heard (outside of here) a woman say “I’m gestating”. She says “I’m having a baby in XX months”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Never heard (outside of here) a woman say “I’m gestating”. She says “I’m having a baby in XX months”

            And women commonly say that they’re having their period when they’re menstruating. Your point?

          • fiona64

            And so what? Gestation is the correct medical term. Some people say “I’m going wee-wee” instead of “I’m urinating.” What difference does it make to you if people choose to use euphemisms?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Maybe she thinks that we’re trying to confuse her with more ‘fancy science talk’.

          • fiona64

            That must be it; we’re “lustering medical babble.” ;-)

          • fiona64

            but if you compare numbers, you will find PP far exceeds any teachers,
            pastors, pediatricians, etc. when it comes to “preying on the poor” who
            are exactly the targets of Planned Parenthood, Goat.

            Citation needed.

            Unfortunately PP follows Margaret Sanger’s philosophy of “eliminating
            the unwanted, the poor and the minorities.” Planned Parenthood has
            quotas set for each office. Aurora, CO just got an award for exceeding
            “goal”.

            Scabby Johnson’s claim has already been debunked here repeatedly.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’d also like to know precisely how you think Planned Parenthood ‘hunts’ women. Because until I hear about pregnant women being ambushed and forcibly dragged into clinics I’m just going to assume that this is so much BS like everything else you’ve posted.

    • fiona64

      She’s just another anti-choice idiot.

      • Ramanusia

        Is that like “shrimp” scampi? :-D

        • fiona64

          Your point is well-taken. :-D

    • Laurie Bertram Roberts

      Apparently she is just a bored forced birther troll nothing new to see in her posts.

      • fiona64

        She’s admitted on another thread that she’s a “sidewalk counselor” — which is anti-choice-speak for “harassing terrorist.”

      • Donna L

        Lovely description Liarie. Actually I’m an ogre. Not a troll.
        Princess Fiona the ogre

        • Jennifer Starr

          Liarie? That’s just kind of lame.

        • fiona64

          WTF does this mean? I ask you this in all sincerity: are you on crack? Because you seem to be in need of treatment.

  • Ramanusia

    Because she’s free to choose whatever she likes, she’s being pro-life, even when she’s choosing her own life and health over a pregnancy that she and her doctor do not favor.

    You and your fellow antis are no pro-life, you are anti-choice, you do not believe in allowing a woman and her doctor to choose, you wish to make her choice for her, no matter how that choice affects her life, and even if it ends it.

    Real choice is what happens when a woman is given the facts and informed fully as she is in a planned parenthood. You do not wish her to have any choice, at all, thus you are nothing more than anti-choice. You choose death, you choose lies, you choose to force women to bend to your whims no matter what.

    You’re not about the fetus, the child or the mother, just denying her any choices. YOU are anti-choice, you are pro-lie, pro-pain and pro-enslavement of women of women’s bodies to YOUR politics, this makes you ANTI-life.

    • prolifemama

      That’s what you’d like to believe, to paint prolifers in the worst possible light, framing our beliefs in your own terms.
      But you can’t change a lie into truth. Prolifers aren’t against a person’s right to choose, we’re against the choice of abortion, because it fatally infringes upon another human being’s life.

      • Ramanusia

        That’s what you actually are, and I need not “paint” you anyway, you folks tend to expose just how horrible you are when you speak, when you harass, when you threaten people’s children, when you cheer the deaths of women, the murders of doctors and the threats to the children of clinic workers. Framing beliefs in your terms in violation of what those terms actually mean and how reality works is YOUR specialty. It’s why you keep getting caught in lie after lie after lie.

        Indeed I cannot, but I don’t need to try, the truth I all I speak, and unlike you the truth supports my position. Indeed prolifers are very much pro-choice, but you’re not a pro-lifer, no matter how hard you try to copyright the term. You’re against a woman choosing, that makes you ANTI-CHOICE. Even when that choice preserves her life and health, that’s what makes you anti-life.

        When you deny a woman the choice of the appropriate medical treatment, you’ve fatally infringed upon another human being’s life, remember when you did just this and Savita Halappanavar died in excruciating pain?

        You can’t change your lies to the truth, your own policies and your own words paint you in a true light, in which you deny choice, and fatally infringe upon the rights of human beings because you don’t think a woman’s life is a human one. The sheer number of women who die each day due to these policies are truths that you cannot change no matter how much you lie, you are not pro-life, you are pro-lie, pro-death and anti-choice, nothing more.

      • fiona64

        You paint *yourself* as a hateful, sociopathic misogynist. ::shrug:: Don’t try to blame others for your own words and deeds.

        because it fatally infringes upon another human being’s life.

        You mean, the way the anti-choice laws to which you masturbate caused the death of Savita Halapannavar?

      • lady_black

        Then you are against the right to choose. Full stop. I may choose to gestate a pregnancy. I don’t “owe” that to anyone, much less you.

        • prolifemama

          No. I am for everyone’s right to choose. That right ends, however, at the point at which it fatally and permanently infringes upon another’s freedom to choose.
          I am against anyone having a “right” to choose to kill innocent children, for any reason.

          • fiona64

            I am for everyone’s right to choose

            …. as long as they do exactly as I say.

            There. I finished the sentence for you.

          • lady_black

            Nobody is “killing innocent children” by terminating a pregnancy. Too bad you don’t want to understand the difference. There has never been a time in my life (including while I was pregnant) that any “innocent children” were inside my body. Go tell that nonsense to your priest. He believes it. I’ve never had an abortion, but a few women close to me have had them. For varying reasons, but in each case the correct choice for their individual circumstances. In one case, it was life-threatening, which I know you don’t consider reason enough, but please… go to hell. If my mother were alive and you called her a murderer, I would knock all your teeth out. And I’m not normally a violent person. A fetus that’s only “alive” because it’s attached to someone who is actually alive doesn’t HAVE any “choices” to respect. It cannot live without the say-so of the particular person who is gestating it, and it certainly can’t move out and get a job. Get over it.

          • Arekushieru

            “A fetus that’s only “alive” because it’s attached to someone who is actually alive doesn’t HAVE any “choices” to respect.”

            Exactly the crux of the matter. You see the more these anti-choice whine about how the fetus is alive and we have no ‘right to kill’ it the more they point out that this isn’t really about the life of the fetus, not for Pro-‘Life’, and especially not for Pro-Choice. After all, the pregnant woman is not the one who created the dependency in the fetus to rely on a woman’s organs and tissues to survive. That dependency existed long before an individual woman’s egg was fertilized.

    • prolifemama

      You guys just don’t admit that prolifers aren’t about the choice itself, as if it’s a decision made in a vacuum, about trivial matters…what shoes go with this purse? Fish tonight, or steaks? Whom should I draft for my fantasy football team?
      We are all for choice, except when one human being’s choice deprives another, innocent, defenseless, voiceless human being of her or his LIFE.
      Pro-aborts’ right to swing their big hammy fists ENDS at the tip of every prenatal nose.

      • Ramanusia

        You guys aren’t pro-life, not at at all, and you don’t care about the choice, you don’t care about the matters that are not at all trivial to the woman concerned or her doctor, all you care about is denying her any ability to choose what happens to her own body.

        You’re not for choice, you’re not for life, you’re all about making medical decisions for women because you think being anti science somehow qualifies you to do this. To you women’s lives are trivial, pairing shoes with purses, your dinner for tonight, your fantasies or whatever, deciding if a woman’s ABG’s , ultrasound, and BP are at a level that would suggest that continuing the pregnancy might be a good idea, they’re all the same, you just pull something out of your rear and go with it, after all, it’s not YOUR life, it’s not YOUR health, and you’re selfish, self-obsessed creeps who don’t think women’s lives mean anything, so what do you care right? As long as you get to shove your politics and your religious delusions in between a woman and her doctor, that’s all, just the power.

        If you truly stand by what you believe you take your self down to the nearest hospital and tell them that you have decided to hand over your “choice” over what happens to your own body and donate your tissues, your blood, that extra kidney, a few hunks of liver, and you weren’t using both corneas or all that skin were you? Innocent, defenseless, voiceless human beings need all that for his or her LIFE, and you’re not a flaming hypocrite, right? UNOS will be thrilled with your donation.

        There is no such thing as a pro-abort, other than yourself (you do love driving women to the back alleys rather than offer them contraception after all), it’s just you swinging your hammy fists all around, as long as it’s OTHER WOMEN’S LIVES you’re sacrificing you don’t really much care do you?

        When it comes to living up to your own rhetoric, you’re selfish little hypocrites.

        Either march yourself over and donate the tissues in your own body to those who are dying without access to them and practice what you preach, or shut the hell up, you don’t get your swing your porcine selves into any aspect of another PERSON’s life, worship your semen stains, your dirty menstrual pads or whatever, but keep your nasty selves away from other people’s lives, their medical decisions and their bodies.

        Let’s see how fast you scurry away from practicing what you preach, how selfish you are when it comes to sacrificing your own “convenience” of bodily integrity even when other actual human beings LIVES are stake.

        Put up or shut up.

      • fiona64

        You are NOT pro-life. You are nothing but a forced-birth, misogynistic, meddling POS. FOAD.

        Women’s lives are of just a wee bit more consequence than matching accessories … and that you are so dismissive of women’s lives in this manner speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.

  • Arekushieru

    Ugh, so much wrong with this post. It IS sad that you are so obtuse.

    Yes, MANY women on here are mothers. Part of the reason WHY they’re Pro-Choice, because, unlike you, they care about their daughter’s and granddaughters’ rights, well-being AND, yes, health. Most of YOUR ilk is anti-homosexual. Being forced to give up your life for someone is neither a sacrifice nor loving. Have YOU ever given up your life or health for something that WASN’T forced from you? I doubt it. However, twice my Pro-CHOICE mother has WILLINGLY risked her life and health for me and my sibling. Can’t say the same about my anti-choice… sorry… Pro-‘Life’… aunt, however. So, sorry, but that question should be posed to YOUR ilk. Is it ‘self-less’ to give up your life for a doomed fetus that will never live long past birth, anyways and leave your EXISTING children motherless?

    No, that’s ANTI-CHOICERS self-serving ideology. It’s all about ME and how *I* want to impose my way of life on OTHERS. PP does not call a fetus a parasite. It IS, however, parasitic. Again, I have to ask you, you DO realize that OB/GYNS are the ones who typically provide abortions, right? Well, OB/Gyns have laughed and agreed with women who called their fetuses parasitic, before. Oops? Repeat that to YOURSELF. It seems that you people will ALWAYS need that lesson, more than we ever will, that’s for sure.

    Citations for your ‘FACTS’. In fact, I DO know that Planned Parenthood fully informs EVERY woman of every option available to them. In FACT, PP provides counseling to women who come through their door seeking an abortion to make sure they are NOT being pressured, coerced or forced into a decision they otherwise would not make. CPCs don’t do that and UNLIKE Planned Parenthood use deceptive and coercive tactics to bring in women from off the streets, who would OTHERWISE be seeking an abortion. Considering, ALSO, that abortion is only THREE percent of their total services, and the rest of their services ensure the health and lives of women, they are FURTHER unlike CPCs, who only provide labour and delivery services, which is the third leading cause of death for women WORLDWIDE, and/or adoption trafficking services, which lead to more depressive symptoms in women than abortion ever will, AND are generally anti-contraception and anti-comprehensive sex ed. As for your latter statement, the WHO organization disagrees with you. As it obviously would, since you and your ilk are commonly known for your LIES.

    Abby Johnson is a liar and Bernard Nathanson is an outlier. If you are talking about the Silent Scream that was debunked a LONG time ago. And, even if fetuses did feel pain, that is still no reason to strip rights from women. I don’t know much about Carol Everett to say much about her, but, so far, she is only one person that you have mentioned out of the many others I could mention. Oops.

    Abortion IS birth control no matter how often it is used. Since your ilk is generally anti-contraception that’s the only choice of birth control they have in some cases. Hypocrites. If someone goes to a Planned Parenthood out of desperation and fear (leaving alone the FACT that pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness or health so that anyone GOING to Planned Parenthood for an abortion IS going for health reasons, OOOOOPPPPPSSS) that YOUR ilk imposes on them by cutting funds to social welfare programs such as TANF, WIC and SNAP and forcing them to rely on unstable funding from cash-strapped CHARITIES, something that you and your ilk very well know the wealthy will NEVER be forced to face, then turning around and calling it a matter of CONVENIENCE, makes you not only a disgusting example of a human being but a racist, classist, hypocritical MISOGYNIST.

    Now, I’m SURE you have never been pregnant, before. If you HAD, you would know that being pregnant isn’t simply a matter of ‘inconvenience’ and exactly what pregnancy constitutes. But, you don’t, Tell me, do any of those ‘inconveniences’ to which you refer, have anything to do with someone directly using another’s body/body parts against their will? No? Thought not. Anything that comes CLOSE to approximating forced birth and forced gestation is rape. And what YOU are advocating for is that rapists be allowed to rape their victims with impunity. But, I’m sure the ONLY reason that you would advocate for that is because the rapist has a right to life that precludes them from being ripped from limb to limb or by stabbing them in the head and sucking out their brains, because, as INDISPUTABLE persons, they INDISPUTABLY feel pain, UNLIKE fetuses. Right? No? Hypocritical misogynist. NO one has the right to life that YOU would grant to fetuses, after all. And YOU would deny only WOMEN the same rights that everyone ELSE has. Btw, by the time most abortions are performed, a fetus has no limbs of which to speak. Also, it is YOUR ilk that banned abortions using IDX forcing women to undergo the much more RISKY and heartbreaking procedure of D and X that actually IS performed on fetuses that actually DO have limbs so no WONDER instances of death from abortion MAY have gone up in a country like the US (so, smile and pat yourself on the back, because YOU are the ones causing the very TRAUMA that you so deride as some part of a Pro-Choice ‘agenda’. Oops).

    Why isn’t it legal? Because then you would be acting like the fetus, NOT the woman. See how SIMPLE that was? OOOOOOPPPPSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

    • Donna L

      Amazing how much venom, intolerance for real dialog and hatred you spew.
      I’m a mom of three. My first was unplanned-but I was 23 and responsible for my behavior. I made my BF pay for his child whom he initially wanted killed for his own selfish reasons.
      I continued on with my life. Changed my lifestyle. Grew up. The baby flatlined twice and had ER C-section. He was gorgeous.
      Now at 24 he has a great relationship w his dad. His father married the right woman for him and had 5 “wanted” children. My son was his only son till his last child. A boy he always wanted to play sports with. And I gave him that.
      It was far from easy. But it changed me forever into a more patient, caring, forgiving, tolerant, self-less mom.
      You all judged me with such venom and harsh words, yet I simply pray that before you all meet your Creator, you will have a change of heart.
      “Some things are true whether you believe in them or not”.
      If you ever have the joy of bearing a child, you might understand. And yes, I would lay down my life for them any day as my Lord did for me while I am still a sinner. I will always be a sinner till my soul is purified.
      You have called me a hypocrite…yet all your judgements are convoluted. Look in the mirror. Are you not full of anger and hatred? So sad.
      Peace be with you I pray. Maybe you will find real love and feel love one day. Miracles happen.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I’m a mom of three. My first was unplanned-but I was 23 and responsible for my behavior. I made my BF pay for his child whom he initially wanted killed for his own selfish reasons.I continued on with my life. Changed my lifestyle. Grew up. The baby flatlined twice and had ER C-section. He was gorgeous.
        Now at 24 he has a great relationship w his dad. His father married the right woman for him and had 5 “wanted” children. My son was his only son till his last child. A boy he always wanted to play sports with. And I gave him that. It was far from easy. But it changed me forever into a more patient, caring, forgiving, tolerant, self-less mom.

        I’m glad you’re happy with your children. Is there an actual point to this story?

      • fiona64

        You all judged me with such venom and harsh words, yet I simply pray
        that before you all meet your Creator, you will have a change of heart.

        Donna, here’s the thing: several of us (myself included) used to be anti-choice dimwits just like you. I know every page in your playbook … because I used the same one. Then, I got out of high school and realized that life is not as black-and-white as I thought.

        BTW, does your son know that the only reason you had him was to “take responsibility”? Once mine was old enough, I explained why no sibling were forthcoming and how I had almost died in pregnancy (so don’t you dare fucking try to tell me that pregnancy is all sunshine and fairy farts, because it isn’t).

        You exercised your choice to gestate; hooray for you! We all support that here. We also support another woman’s choice NOT to in identical circumstances.

        You, OTOH, want to force every woman to gestate. I can’t help thinking that’s because you’re *miserable,* and want to make sure others are, too. Guess having that anchor-baby didn’t keep the daddy around after all, eh?

        • Donna L

          Fiona. I’m glad you survived and have a beautiful child.
          I never planned to marry – was gonna be a single mom bc of the pain I went through. No, I did not want to marry my boyfriend and use OUR son as “anchor baby” that’s quite scummy actually.
          His father was young and fearful. I was young and hopeful. About to lose my job and no family support.
          I made my choice to engage in sex and now live up to my consequences and to and love him to death.
          My son knows I chose life because I had hope and faith. He has a purpose here on earth. . It wasn’t peaches n cream! But we got through and he’s a great young man. He’s made mistakes, but who hasn’t.
          You judge me so wrongly.
          ” Don’t judge me” and stop being such a ” Hater”.
          I hope you find joy and peace.
          This “play book” is from the heart. We share similar hearts I guess

          • fiona64

            No, we don’t “share similar hearts.” My heart tells me that I have no business making medical decisions for any woman other than myself. Your “heart” tells you that you should make demands on women you’ve never even met.

          • goatini

            How dare you come to a website where patriotic freedom fighters defend citizens’ inalienable rights, attack us and our rights with hateful venom, then cry about how YOU are being “judged”? What a disgusting lying hypocrite you are.

          • Arekushieru

            So, your son is a consequence? Wow. If you made the choice to have him, you are Pro-CHOICE, just a very hypocritical Pro-Choice since you want to take that choice away from every other woman. Guess what, if abortion is illegal, you cannot ‘choose’ anything. Oops.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Do not pray for me. God might think I like you.

        • prolifemama

          God knows you, PD – your likes, dislikes, the lies you tell yourself and others – everything.
          He loves you beyond any human being’s ability to describe or quantify.
          Pretty sure Donna will pray for you, if she’s not already doing so.
          I am too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            That made me throw up in my mouth a little. Ewwwww. Eww.

          • prolifemama

            Must be those evil humours leaving your body…

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wish you what you wish me.

          • prolifemama

            And what do you suppose I wish you, PD?
            Do you remember? You were very helpful, even kind, when I first came across RHRC and didn’t know the ropes. And I was, and am, grateful for your kindness.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You skeeve me. Ewwww.

          • prolifemama

            Because I remembered and acknowledged that you helped me?

            Oh, maybe because I embarrassed you in front of all your pro-abort, prolifer-hating friends…
            so sorry!!

          • goatini

            The only person you’re embarrassing here is yourself.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have proved to my satisfaction that you are a liar. You have been a liar since your opening salvo. I spend as little time as possible in the company of liars.

          • Arekushieru

            If you don’t want people to accuse you of lying stop spewing lies. We are not “Pro-Abort” AND we don’t hate actual Pro-Life people, just anti-choicers!

          • prolifemama

            Haven’t yet said what you think I’m “wishing” for you.

          • Arekushieru

            You mean the ones you sent her way?

          • goatini

            Any “God” that is a vicious misogynist, and that wants to strip citizens of their rights and torture them in gestational slavery against their will, doesn’t “love” anyone, and in any case, isn’t any “God” that I want to know about.

          • prolifemama

            Who could blame you. You’re speaking about Satan, goatini.

          • goatini

            Ahem, that was YOUR sadistic “God” that wants to strip citizens of their rights and torture them in gestational slavery against their will. You, and your “God”, are pure evil.

          • Arekushieru

            Yes, hope you have fun worshiping him!

          • fiona64

            I want nothing to do with the version of God you made in your own image.

          • prolifemama

            God is God, Fiona. No “versions,” no “human-made” Being.

            He made you in His image. He loves you beyond your capacity to comprehend. Yet when you encounter Him in your friends, in your child, you recognize him.

          • goatini

            Any “God” that is a vicious misogynist, and that wants to strip citizens of their rights and torture them in gestational slavery against their will, doesn’t “love” anyone, and in any case, isn’t any “God” that I want to know about. Your hateful, evil “God” isn’t in our families and friends – but that evil IS in YOU.

          • fiona64

            Nope. You have create a hateful god in your own image. How do I know? Because your god conveniently hates the same people you do: women and gay people.

          • Arekushieru

            Praying publicly for others? NWJWD.

            The lies you tell yourself are even more amazing, especially that we lie.

      • Arekushieru

        If you can’t handle your own medicine get out of the kitchen, little girl. More men are involved in contraceptive sabotage than those that want the woman to abort. Besides, unlike you, we are against force both in abortion AND pregnancy. Oops. Having an abortion IS being responsible unless you think an impoverished woman maintaining a dangerous pregnancy at the expense of her own and her EXISTING children’s health and life potentially leaving them motherless is being responsible? Btw, YOU are the ones who believe men shouldn’t be forced to pay child support. WE are, because we believe in equal rights for men AND women. If you forced him to pay for your pregnancy (since I am unsure whether you’re calling the fetus a child, falsely, or referring to an ACTUAL child), however, I actually find that equally egregious. ESPECIALLY if he was the one using contraception. Would you like it if someone forced you to pay for their vasectomy? Or would you force someone to pay for a tubal ligation?

        Do you know what a C-section or vaginal birth does? Terminates a pregnancy, which is the same thing that an abortion does. But, because a fetus is incompatible with life upon separation from the uterus at certain stages of pregnancy, you believe that women must be stripped of their rights and have a biological mandate enforced on them even though no other group of humans is forced into such a situation merely based on genotype. AND, thus, grant fetuses more of a right to life than anyone born.

        Changed your lifestyle? You show just how privileged you are by even spouting these words. MANY women can’t do so, because of people like you who oppose social welfare funding such as TANF, WIC and SNAP. See you were unable to address THAT. So much for not hearing venom from you.

        As for your comments about abortion and pregnancy in your earlier post, that’s even MORE evidence of the venom you’ve been spewing. Do you know the reason WHY women report regret after an abortion, it’s not only because they’ve been coerced (which we, unlike you, oppose) and/or because there were preexisting circumstances PRIOR to the abortion but ALSO because of people like you who spread their stigmatization and shaming of women who have abortions like the disease it is.

        Also, you CHOSE to give birth and raise the child. Congratulations, you did the same thing my Pro-CHOICE mother did. The only difference being that she had an abortion, and the fetus that was aborted would have been born AFTER my actual sibling’s own conception. Which means that you begrudge my sibling’s existence. Even MORE venom on your part.

        You have been judging women who have had abortions with your very OWN harsh words from the moment you came on here. Since you’ve outed yourself as a Christian, you should know that God doesn’t like those who judge others. Not only more venom, but more evidence of your hypocrisy and sins.

        You are also told not to pray for others, publicly, sinner.

        So, is it because, even though you are still a sinner, that you don’t believe that God doesn’t want you to try to do better as Jesus did in his works, that you aren’t working on your own sins? Someone doesn’t read the bible very well (since that’s COMING from a Christian who doesn’t read the bible, that’s saying a LOT about you).

        So also goes the saying that some things aren’t true whether you believe in them or not. Oops.

        Joy of childbearing? Ugh, I think I just puked in my mouth. Childbearing is a gift only for women who WANT to be pregnant. Just as giving up your life is a sacrifice only if you WANT to do so. If you assume that I must want to be pregnant merely because I identify as a woman then not only have you proven yourself to once again be a misogynist, but you have also identified one of the major reasons why I do NOT ever want to be pregnant.

        Nope, YOU are full of anger. Not only because you are self-projecting your OWN judgments on me, but you are full of anger and hatred towards women who have abortions, you’re just dressing it up as compassion and ‘healing’, perhaps (and that is only a perhaps, like I’ve been using all ALONG, UNLIKE you), because you don’t want to acknowledge how badly informed your choices were, AT THE TIME. Yes, SO sad, indeed!

        I have found real love and feel love. From my family. Although I can’t say the same about the family of my anti-choice aunt. AW.

      • goatini

        You’re a hypocrite, and “God” has nothing to do with this conversation.

  • Laurie Bertram Roberts

    Yep you can be a mother and a reproductive justice activist I’m a mother of seven and I’m a RJ activist BECAUSE I’m a mother.
    Almost all of my pregnancies were life threatening and it was my CHOICE to proceed MINE no one else’s. It was my CHOICE to continue my pregnancy after being raped. MINE not someone elses.

    Abby Johnson is a proven liar so there’s that. Please show your proof that as many women die from abortion as from childbirth? Also you do realize late term abortion IS essentially a birth procedure you daft woman.

    Also nice try throwing at the “at anytime during pregnancy” red herring because anyone who knows anything about abortion law and restrictions know it’s incredibly hard to get a late term procedure.

    • Donna L

      Laurie, did you keep the “POC” from the rape? If so, has that child helped you heal from the pain of being violated? You are to be commended for your heroism. I’m sure your child thanks you too for “choosing” life. That’s a wonderful account of your life.
      Why do you insult me? Can’t anyone here just discuss issues wo the venom and insults and pre-judged accusations (which have been as far left field as possible.)
      Yes you are all “intelligent” with your vocab, but not very open.
      And FYI, abortion is legal on demand all 9 months regardless of reason. Re: Carhart, Gosnell, Haskell, Brigham, Tiller. All murdered women wo so much as a slap on wrist.
      No I do NOT advocate any violence whatsoever. Whoever accused me of that is truly the “DAFT” one.
      Over 4,300 babies a day die from abortion. Not counting the ones flushed in the toilets from RU486
      (Btw, that could kill a woman who is anemic!).
      if I’m “anti-choice” then folks here are ” anti-life “.
      So you are getting away from ” Choice” and now demanding ” justice” ?
      The developing child has a right of choice also and is due justice. It didn’t ask to be created. So the choice comes in deciding to have intercourse or not. The justice comes when the innocent are protected and the guilty are punished after complete investigation. I’ve seen rapist go free and innocent child murdered. No way that’s “justice”.
      Ryan Bomberger is a hero and Miss PA is wonderful reason to choose life and adoption.
      Laurie, many blessings to you for being courageous, selfless and giving your child of rape a chance to be loved and to show love.

      • Jennifer Starr

        And FYI, abortion is legal on demand all 9 months regardless of reason.

        No, it isn’t.

        • Donna L

          Yes it is.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, it really isn’t.

          • prolifemama

            Sorry (and I really mean sorry), it really is.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope.

          • prolifemama

            Your sayin’ so doesn’t make it so.
            Proof, please.

          • goatini

            Actually, it’s incumbent upon you, since you are making the specious allegation, to prove that in the US, ANY safe, legal pregnancy terminations in the third trimester were performed absent medical necessity. You won’t be able to.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The proof would be on your end.

          • fiona64

            You’re the one making the positive assertion, dumbshit. Cough up the proof that abortion on demand is legal and available for the entire duration of the pregnancy. Or, admit that you’re a liar.

          • goatini

            Absolutely, NO. Safe, legal third trimester pregnancy termination is NOT available, absent medical necessity. FACT.

          • fiona64

            You are too stupid for words. You really are.

          • prolifemama

            Is that your reason for using all those simple, four-letter ones?

          • goatini

            Anti-American seditious hate speech advocating for the forcible stripping of citizens’ rights, based solely on gender, IS EVIL. You look ridiculous, hate-filled drama queen getting the vapors over some cuss words.

          • fiona64

            I want to make sure you comprehend my meaning. :-)

          • prolifemama

            The word you want is “intent.”

          • fiona64

            No, it really isn’t. I know the difference between “meaning” and “intent.” I’m sorry you don’t.

            Just one more choice you don’t get to make for me. Isn’t life wonderful.

          • Ivy Mike

            Does adult language hurt your widdle ears?

            Then maybe you shouldn’t be telling adults how to live their lives.

          • Arekushieru

            Not in the US, it isn’t. And you have a CANADIAN telling you that.

          • fiona64

            No, dumbfuck, it isn’t. Third trimester abortion is NOT available absent medical necessity.

          • expect_resistance

            No it most certainly not.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Ryan Bomberger exploits his biological mother’s rape and her personal choice to carry him and give him up for adoption to try and take choice away from other women. I don’t have much respect for him.

        • Donna L

          Exploits? Wow. So blinded you cannot see the good he’s done. He’s saved lives and offered hope. Terrible how you twist that around.
          We live in “times where good is evil and evil is good ”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, he exploits his mother’s personal tragedy for gain.

          • prolifemama

            Ryan’s mother was raped. That was the tragedy. She gave birth to him and made an adoption plan so that he would have a good live. That is her triumph, and her gift to him. He has gained by being alive, due to her unselfishness and courage.
            What does it profit you to twist the details of Ryan’s situation and misrepresent it with your hateful words, Jennifer?
            It makes you appear unable to accept the situation for what it is. You appear to have an uncontrollable inclination to trash others’ life stories so that you can mock them. What’s your problem?

          • goatini

            Ryan Bomberger supports the rapist’s right to select, by violent felony sexual assault, the mother of his child – and he supports gestational slavery as a SECOND assault upon the innocent crime victim, because HE wants the rapist to WIN. All rapists’ rights supporters would burn in Hell in a just world.

          • Arekushieru

            You mean, compared to yourself?

            It was not unselfish. Everything is selfish. Selfishness is not inherently bad, even GOD doesn’t believe it is inherently bad. GREED, however, what anti-choicers practice, IS, in the eyes of God. It’s a SIN, after all.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What does it profit you to twist the details of Ryan’s situation and misrepresent it with your hateful words, Jennifer?

            Well for one thing, it was not Ryan’s situation. It happened to his biological mother, not to him. And he publicizes and exploits a very private and painful matter in order to try and take choice away from other women.

          • goatini

            Ryan Bomberger is a rapists’ rights supporter. All rapists’ rights supporters would burn in Hell in a just world.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Laurie, did you keep the “POC” from the rape? If so, has that child helped you heal from the pain of being violated?

        What the hell kind of question is this?

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          A fapper’s question.

      • fiona64

        Look, you dumb bitch. This?

        Laurie, did you keep the “POC” from the rape? If so, has that child helped you heal from the pain of being violated?

        Is so far beyond the pale of rudeness that it boggles my mind. Furthermore, only an imbecile would pretend that *anything* “heals the pain of being violated.* You don’t “heal from” being raped; you just learn how to deal with it going forward.

        All the hate, a survivor

        • Donna L

          That’s a planned parenthood term. I agree it’s terrible!
          Just my point ! And you now admitted that its rude and they should stop referring to a baby as a POC. ( product of conception)
          Man, can’t you say anything without swearing and insults ?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Considering how offensive those two questions were, I think she’s being kind.

          • Donna L

            The questions were taken in wrong context. Those are words of your beloved Planned Parenthood. And yes healing of heart happens.
            So attack PP for their words if you find them offensive.
            I’m so glad none of you are offensive at all.
            Laurie is a heroine and was blessed for choosing life. I hope she is happy and that her life choices have fulfilled her.

            As moms, you should be lifted up for choosing life. And lift up others. Death tears a soul to pieces. Actually two souls.
            There is no joy in death.

            Address the issue of licentious and irresponsible behavior of our culture.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Laurie made the best choice for her. And she fights for the right of other women to make the choice that’s best for them. I do absolutely consider her a heroine.

          • a7xrocker1981

            So what were the babies she aborted then. Explain me the transfiguration phenomenon about them being wanted vs not wanted.
            I have never ever heard a woman refer to her baby in the womb as a fetus POC or anything but a baby. And giving birth is called childbirth, not fetus birth. So if a woman is pregnant with a wanted baby, its a baby. And a woman pregnant with an unwanted baby has a blob of cells. Will I see the difference if you show me sonogram photos of both? No, I will not. But if I do, WOW, I am sure Professor McGonagall will be extremely impressed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So what were the babies she aborted then.

            Who?

            And incidentally, embryo and fetus are proper medical terms. I’m sorry if they bother you so much.

          • prolifemama

            Yes, they are indeed. But I’m pretty sure a7xrocker1981 is more bothered that you use these terms to dehumanize unborn children so as to justify killing them through abortion.

            And Leroy Carhart can be heard using the non-medical term “baby” when referring to his would-be victim while describing an abortion procedure to the “baby’s” mother.

            Maybe he’s missing the meetings…

          • Arekushieru

            A fetus is not a victim. In order for a fetus to be a victim it would have to be AWARE. Calling a fetus aware, dehumanizes the WOMAN. Because her sentience and consciousness is placed on par with the contents of her UTERUS. Thanks for proving how much you hate (other) women.

            Yes, even doctors are human, so did I destroy your little fantasy world, once again? Besides, just ONE of the reasons we use the term fetus is because we hate your emotionally manipulative rhetoric. AW.

          • prolifemama

            A woman is murdered silently while she sleeps via a lethal injection, UN-aware of what was happening to her, thus unable to defend herself, or experience any suffering before her death.
            By your ‘argument’ this woman is not a victim.
            Just how does acknowledging fetal awareness, her/his capacity to feel pain, dehumanize her/his mother? With proaborts, it’s always an either/or game. There’s simply no room in what passes as your hearts for both mother and child to exist, so the stronger must victimize the weaker.
            You DO hate your emotions being touched by truthful terminology. Thanks for admitting, too, that you use medical terms to dehumanize your weaker victims. You just can’t stomach admitting that the fetus has a face.

          • Ivy Mike

            How about some actual reality?

            A woman is raped and becomes pregnant therefrom. She doesn’t want to continue the pregnancy. She becomes depressed, suicidal. seeking a legal termination, she is unfortunately in a country that elevates the “rights” of a ZEF above those of a woman.

            So, she pleads her case to a panel of (male) doctors…two mental health specialists and a Catholic OB/GYN. The shrinks recommend that she receive the abortion, the GYN, typically for those of his cult, does not. She is denied.

            Desperate, and at the end of hope, she again threatens suicide, even beginning a hunger strike.

            At this time, the full flower of the so-called “Pro-life” society blooms…

            She is arrested, restrained, and force-fed until her pregnancy reaches 24 weeks, the minimum necessary for survival. at this time, she is subjected to a forced C-Section.

            The kicker? various “pro-life” authorities lament that she was not kept restrained LONGER, so as to produce a healthier fetus!

            This all really happened, in Ireland. You would impose this here. Not on my watch.

          • fiona64

            PLM is probably touching herself while she reads that. :-(

          • Ivy Mike

            I really didn’t need that mental image…

          • fiona64

            I really have become convinced over time that these fantasies they post (what Plum calls murderp0rn) are part of their spank bank.

          • goatini

            Read the comment that proDEATHmofo posted earlier today about the fetus and the toilet – THAT was quite a frenzied spankfest:

            http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/08/20/planned-parenthood-gulf-coast-louisiana-director-resigns-amid-criticism/#comment-1561544073

          • fiona64

            That woman is in need of psychiatric help. Full stop.

          • fiona64

            How about you come up with an actual argument instead of constantly positing these stupid fucking straw men?

            Oh, and cough up the sources we’ve been asking about for more than two weeks now. You claim not to “have time” to do that, but you have time to dream up *this* bullshit? Really?

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, there is nothing that passes for compassion by your ilk for women, ONLY the fetus insofar as it doesn’t prevent the fetus from suffering after birth, of course. We care about BOTH.

            HITLER was a Pro-Abort AND Pro-‘Life’. NEITHER of which is Pro-CHOICE.

            Um, the woman is COMPLETELY aware. You obviously need to learn a few things about neuroscience, apparently. As someone else said, on either this or another thread, you haven’t a CLUE what sapience is, DO you?

            Really? ‘Acknowledging’ that a fetus is aware when science does not agree with you, does not dehumanize a woman? Tell me, if a fetus is just as aware as a woman, then how does that not make a woman just the same as a fetus? After all, in that case, it doesn’t matter how many more personal or professional relationships she may have developed, it doesn’t matter how many more experiences she may have had, it doesn’t matter how much more knowledge she may have gained, it simply doesn’t matter how much older she may be, if a fetus and a woman share the same level of awareness, those differences are unimportant, bringing a woman down to the level of a fetus. Reducing a woman’s status is the FIRST step in dehumanizing her.

            Nope, YOU think that the fetus must victimize the woman. Like a rape apologist, you think every human population except women, deserve rights.

            Nope, I use legitimate medical terms to remind people such as yourself that a fetus IS human, and, if your arguments can stand up to LOGIC, that it is unnecessary for you to label a fetus as something it is not, what is described by a SLANG term for a development stage OUTSIDE of the uterus.

            Nope, I recognize the fetus has a face. However, YOU constantly erase the WOMAN’S face. It sounds like you believe the woman IS, as is certainly true, the weaker victim and you simply want to make (all other) women even MORE so.

          • goatini

            A fetus is not a “woman”.

            Seditious, anti-American threats to forcibly strip innocent female US citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice ARE DEHUMANIZING.

            Un-American activism in radical theocratic misogynist hate groups, intended specifically to regress innocent female US citizens to the status of livestock IS DEHUMANIZING.

          • fiona64

            You just can’t stomach acknowledging that the fetus has a face.

            So does a cow. Are you a vegetarian?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What meetings? You mean the ones you imagined that we had in the middle of Manhattan?

          • prolifemama

            Boy, you sure picked the perfect place for ‘em!
            Upper West Side would be more accurate, though.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pretty amazing, seeing as how I haven’t been to New York in twenty-four years. What exactly is your Manhattan fixation?

          • fiona64

            Apparently this dumbass thinks that NYC is the center of all evil.

          • fiona64

            You’re the dumbfuck who claimed we have “secret meetings in the middle of Manhattan.” YOU explain that.

          • goatini

            I regret to inform you that the secret meetings are NOT held at my brother’s co-op. I’m pretty sure they’re not at Yoko Ono’s place, either.

          • fiona64

            I dunno, man. I would *totally* go to a secret meeting with Yoko. She’s pretty amazing.

          • prolifemama

            Hard to say, isn’t it, if you’re never invited…

          • Jennifer Starr

            You can’t be invited to something that never takes place.

          • prolifemama

            Boy, you guys never kid around, do you.

          • goatini

            About OUR CIVIL RIGHTS? Hell, NO.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I can tell that humor isn’t really your specialty.

          • fiona64

            Your desire to trample all over our rights is not exactly a laughing matter.

          • fiona64

            Since none of us here would invite you to a meeting in the *outhouse,* what makes you an expert on where we allegedly get together?

          • fiona64

            So what were the babies she aborted then

            You don’t read very fucking well, do you? Laurie’s never HAD an abortion.

          • prolifemama

            a7xrocker1981, GREAT points!

            Poor Jennifer thinks that her words change reality. if a woman doesn’t want her baby – poof! – suddenly she’s pregnant with a ‘fetus’ – never mind that the word fetus is Latin for little one, child, baby, take your pick.

            These ladies just can’t handle the truth, that a newly-conceived human being is NEVER just a “clump of cells.” Heck, even warts, pimples, skin tags, or cancerous tumor aren’t just “clumps of cells.” But they will never become a separate human being.

            A newly-conceived human being will continue to develop AS, not ‘into’ a human being. Terms like “zygote” and “embryo” and “fetus” are simply named stages of pre-birth human development.

            But folks here use these medical terms to dehumanize the unborn in order to justify killing them via abortion for no reason, for any reason, refusing to admit that they should be granted the legal protection we born people enjoy.

            Science really bugs these folks, because it makes them look like fools when they disagree with the facts.

          • goatini

            Anti-American attacks on the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of US citizens ARE DEHUMANIZING.

          • Arekushieru

            And placenta is Latin for cake. Can I haz placenta, now? Oops. And the ones that dehumanize a fetus are the ones who think that using an appropriate MEDICAL term is dehumanizing. It shows that the only way you can conceive of a fetus as human is to call it a baby. Oops.

            Most pregnancies fail, so the majority of them will never become a separate HUMAN.

            Yes, it will develop INTO a human being. Minimal biological requirement (ONCE again): human; individual. A fetus is human but not individual, BECAUSE it is not separate. Y’know who IS separate but you continue to ignore, the WOMAN. You know what else is separate but you continue to ignore, although you claim that a fetus cannot ‘magically’ turn into a human being, sperm and eggs. If a fetus can’t magically turn into a human being, then how can sperm and eggs magically turn into a human being, when they’ve got a FULL set of diploid chromosomes JUST like a fetus has. after all? AW. So, you’re saying that the processes of conception are named, Zygote, Embryo and Fetus, rather than the developing human, itself? SOMEONE needs to learn2biology.

            Nope, it is IRRELEVANT whether or not a fetus is human OR a human being. The fact that we keep on harping on whether a fetus is human or a human being, instead, is all on YOUR heads, because YOU are the ones who cannot come up with new material and actually ADDRESS the ARGUMENTS. Hmm. YOU would grant a fetus MORE legal protections than ANYONE born, but most ESPECIALLY the WOMAN. You use ANY reason to justify killing the WOMAN.

            Yes, I agree, science really bugs you people, because it makes you look like fools when you disagree with the FACTS. But I have no idea why you’re talking about people with whom you identify in third person? AH, yes, it’s the infamous self-projection, ISN’T it?

          • prolifemama

            Not “more” legal protections, equal legal protections.

            Much as you want to alter the prolife stance, we prolifers don’t allow our goals to be redefined.

          • fiona64

            Not “more” legal protections, equal legal protections.

            As has been explained to you repeatedly, you cannot have “equal” legal protection in this case. Affording rights to a zygote *by necessity* abrogates the rights of the pregnant woman. How is it that you are too stupid to comprehend this?

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, MORE legal protections. Because NO ONE has the SAME right to life that YOU would grant to fetuses. Oops. YOU want to redefine the Pro-Life GOAL. Which is NOT equal to your ‘stance’.

          • prolifemama

            I want our unborn sisters and brothers to be granted personhood via an amendment to the Constitution. That act will grant them full and equal protection under the law, as all citizens enjoy, unless they are found guilty of a crime, and then due process of law may proceed. The Fifth Amendment provides that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without that due process of law.

          • goatini

            //unless they are found guilty of a crime, and then due process of law may proceed. //

            No sense arguing with the batshit crazy. As we’ve reviewed here, over and over and over again, the FACT that a fetus cannot, by necessity, be either “innocent” OR “guilty”, I think you’ve just conclusively proven that you’re insane with hatred of female US citizens’ rights.

          • Arekushieru

            And you want women deprived of liberty without being found guilty of a crime and due process of law. OOPS.

            Also, as I SAID, NO ONE has the right to life that YOU want to grant to fetuses. OBVIOUSLY that INCLUDES persons. How obtuse ARE you?

          • prolifemama

            The liberty of which you speak is not withheld from pregnant women, it is simply extended to their unborn children. Childbearing is indeed an intense experience, one in which mothers give all their time and energies to nurturing their growing daughters or sons, then giving them birth, and continuing that nurturing until their children become adults. The nurturing continues even into the child’s adulthood, as s/he learns from Mother all the wisdom she’s gleaned from her years as their parent. Having children is NOT some horrendous imposition thrust upon human beings without our consent, however you may try to paint it so.
            Anyone’s liberty ends at the tip of another’s nose. This isn’t “depriving” them of their liberty, but protecting the liberty of others.

          • goatini

            No one in the United States has the legal right to force ANY female citizen to take on THE most important, time-consuming and resource-consuming commitment and responsibility she can possibly take on – when SHE is not willing to do so.

            The female US citizen’s most important dignity is in taking on THE most important, time-consuming and resource-consuming commitment and responsibility she can possibly take on – when she IS ready and willing to do so. And NOT at any other time.

          • prolifemama

            If a woman is pregnant, she has a child within her. Ready or not, she’s a mom. The only question is, will she remain mother to her living child, or become mom of her dead baby?

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            Prolifemomma, you have a choice, you can save an innocent born baby or you can let that baby die and bet its life on the possibility that a woman threatening abortion will give birth to a baby. You wager a real live baby’s life against the potential life of a zygote/embryo/fetus. Most of the time you cause a born baby to die and there is no life saved. That makes you a murderer of innocent babies.

            I have asked you numerous times to prove to me that every zygote/embryo/fetus will become a born baby, and you have failed.
            That is proof you know you are a murderer.

          • prolifemama

            Russell, your viewpoint on this subject is unique, and wrong.
            If you were as science-savvy as you purport to be, you would acknowledge that zygotes/embryos/fetuses are actual, and not “potential” life, as they are human beings each and all, at various early stages of human life. They don’t “become” human beings somewhere further along in their development…that happens at the only time it could happen – fertilization. You are not an embryologist. I recommend you hash these facts out with one, even a pro-abort one.
            It is counter-intuitive to insist that zefs, to use your terminology, are not actual human beings based on their age, just as it would be counter-intuitive to say that a 15-year-old isn’t a human being because she cannot yet vote.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            “Russell, your viewpoint on this subject is unique, and wrong.”

            Every scientist agrees with me. If you think otherwise bring your expert out into the public.

            “If you were as science-savvy as you purport to be, you would acknowledge that zygotes/embryos/fetuses are actual, and not “potential” life, as they are human beings each and all, at various early stages of human life.”

            A gamete/zygote/embryo/fetus can not be proved to be a human being capable of living as a human being until birth. Prior to birth it may die and may be proved to never have had enough human DNA to live as a human. Most zygotes die in the first trimester and of those that die most die due to genetic flaws that will not produce human life.
            Your failure is based upon your misreading of science. All human life was once a gamete/zygote/embryo/fetus but not all gametes produce human life. Once you understand that simple fact you will be able to understand why you are currently murdering babies to save non human life.

            ” They don’t “become” human beings somewhere further along in their development…that happens at the only time it could happen – fertilization. ”

            At fertilization a gamete not capable of producing human life can fuse with a human gamete and produce a zygote that cannot live as a human being. The formation of the zygote is nothing more than the formation of a product of conception that cannot live as a human. In fact 42 percent of zygotes are incapable of producing human life.

            “You are not an embryologist.”

            Every embryologist agrees with me.

            “I recommend you hash these facts out with one, even a pro-abort one.”

            I have nothing to hash out. What I state is fact. Until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype, there is no human life.

            “It is counter-intuitive to insist that zefs, to use your terminology, are not actual human beings based on their age,”

            70 percent of zygotes do not become actual human beings. That is a fact. Your views are based upon a retrospective interpretation of life. But life does not begin retrospectively. While all human life came from human gametes, not all gametes become human life. You are trapped in a false analogy fallacy and I am showing you the way out. You need to learn about embryology and life and stop murdering innocent babies in an effort to save non human life.

            “just as it would be counter-intuitive to say that a 15-year-old isn’t a human being because she cannot yet vote.”

            Your analogy is false and that causes you to let innocent babies die. You really need to learn about embryology and human life and stop letting babies die.

          • fiona64

            If you were as science-savvy as you purport to be, you would acknowledge that zygotes/embryos/fetuses are actual, and not “potential” life,

            So are ova and spermatozoa, and yet you emphatically state that these are not persons.

            You are not an embryologist

            Neither are you.

            that a 15-year-old isn’t a human being because she cannot yet vote.

            Is a 15-year-old still in utero and attached by an umbilicus?

            No? Then she is a PERSON. Z/E/Fs are NOT, no matter how much projection you try to use.

            And you didn’t answer Russell’s very simple question: prove to me that every zygote/embryo/fetus will become a born baby, .

            Not that I’m surprised at this point; you can’t handle the hard questions. You also cannot be bothered to provide sources that have been requested of you repeatedly, even when you state that you will do so.

            The only reasonable conclusion is that you are a liar.

          • Arekushieru

            And ova and spermatozoa exhibit the human phenotype. Making them closer to persons than a fetus could ever by, of course, by PLM’s logic, according to the minimum possible biological requirement: Human; individual.

          • goatini

            Age is counted from the moment of birth.

          • prolifemama

            In China people are recognized as being alive from fertilization on, and they count their age from that moment, and celebrate their Conception Day.
            Regardless of our biologically inaccurate ‘custom’ of counting age from birth, our lives begin long before we see the full light of day. Each human being’s life begins at fertilization.
            Why do you strive so mightily to ignore this?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not true. They celebrate the birthday, but you’re considered to be a year old when you’re born, not nine months. So no, they do not celebrate their ‘Conception Day’—which to be frank, most people don’t even know.

          • Arekushieru

            And, yet, abortion, as well as infanticide, were, at least. fairly common practices, at one point in time.

          • Arekushieru

            A pregnant woman is not a mother. A fetus is not a child. If a fetus or baby is dead before it has been released into her care she is not her mother? Would you tell someone like Lina Medina that if she had had an abortion performed on her?

          • goatini

            Poor Lina Medina, what a horrible story. A baby raped by her father.

          • fiona64

            Your trite little bumpersticker slogan does not represent reality.

          • goatini

            A woman becomes a mother when she gives birth.

          • fiona64

            The liberty of which you speak is not withheld from pregnant women, it is simply extended to their unborn children.

            Dumbass, the minute you afford rights to a zygote, you are WITHHOLDING LIBERTY FROM A PREGNANT WOMAN. You are telling her that she does not have the right to privacy in her medical decisions. You are enslaving her to the contents of her uterus.

            Having children is NOT some horrendous imposition thrust upon human beings without our consent, however you may try to paint it so.

            it is if one is being forced to gestate against one’s will. You do NOT have the right to force someone to risk life and health to gestate in order to satisfy your “sad feelies” about the death of a zygote, or to add another infant to the adoption mill where you have already admitted that you work.

            And save the slut-shaming “keep your legs together bullshit.” Just because no one wants to touch your skanky person anymore doesn’t mean the rest of us have to abstain.

            You are one of the most disgusting, misogynistic, willfully ignorant individuals I have ever run across on the internet. And believe you me, lady, that’s saying something.

            PS: Still waiting for your sources on the question we’ve been asking. Or for an admission that you’re a liar.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            :I have asked, —no begged— you to prove that any one fetus will be born alive and human. If you can prove that then you can make your arguments about personhood. Until you can prove that any one fetus will be born, you are just intentionally lying.

            Where is your proof?

            The most evil part of being pro life is that you must intentionally choose to let innocent born babies die in any effort to force the birth of a fetus. Your gleeful choice is to murder innocent babies. And you call yourself pro life?

            There are multiple stages of life and 4 stages of human life that we can clearly identify: http://naturalabortionlaws.com/?p=114

          • prolifemama

            A fetus doesn’t have to be born to be in actuality, human. Even stillborn fetuses have identifiably human DNA. That’s how human remains frozen for thousands of years in the Italian Alps (see June 1993 National Geographic article titled ICEMAN).
            Check out the 36-year-old ectopic pregnancy in the news, and the retrieved, reconstructed skeletal remains of this woman’s never-born baby. Human, identifiably so by DNA.
            and as always, Russell, your signature line, “you must intentionally choose to let innocent born babies die… etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum, illustrates your unwillingness to put your mysterious ‘theory’ into layperson’s words so that your point can be grasped without the reader being required to buy into your bizarre theory.
            Please attempt to fully explain, if you can, for the common person, what you mean by this statement.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            “A fetus doesn’t have to be born to be in actuality, human.”

            You cannot prove that the fetus is human enough to live as a human until it is born.

            “Even stillborn fetuses have identifiably human DNA. ”

            One cannot identify which DNA will “express” human life and which DNA is human in form but incapable of producing human life. The stillborn could have been incapable of human life yet still had 46 perfectly formed chromosomes. It clearly did not produce human life. Most zygotes don’t.

            “That’s how human remains frozen for thousands of years in the Italian Alps (see June 1993 National Geographic article titled ICEMAN).
            Check out the 36-year-old ectopic pregnancy in the news, and the retrieved, reconstructed skeletal remains of this woman’s never-born baby. Human, identifiably so by DNA.”

            There is a difference in DNA and “DNA expression.” The fact that the DNA formed the correct chromosomes does not mean that the chromosomes will produce a living human.

            “and as always, Russell, your signature line, “you must intentionally choose to let innocent born babies die… etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum, illustrates your unwillingness to put your mysterious ‘theory’ into layperson’s words so that your point can be grasped without the reader being required to buy into your bizarre theory.”

            Nothing I say is not bizarre. I am stating scientific fact that is agreed to by all scientists. I just organize it in one spot and apply it to abortion.

            “Please attempt to fully explain, if you can, for the common person, what you mean by this statement.”

            There are more people dying than can be saved by any person or group of people. Why, because everyone dies. But many that will die can be saved from death for a period of time. Therefore most people can be saved.

            1.8 born humans die, 1.4 induced abortions and 10 natural abortions occur each second. So if a person wants to save life they may choose to save life from any of those three groups. All together 12.2 are dying each second. A choice to “save fetuses” is a choice not to save the 10 naturally aborted fetuses and the 1.8 born humans. So a choice to be pro life is a choice to let 10 wanted zygotes and 1.8 born humans die each second. One cannot save all life because so many die each second. Therefore one must make a choice, they may choose to save innocent born babies or naturally aborted zefs or they can choose to let them die and save a fetus instead. Pro lifers make the intentional choice to let innocent born babies die and to let zefs die so they can attempt to save non human life.

            Pro lifers are led to let innocent babies die because no one in the movement understands what is happening in the world of science. Until there is an “open mind” attitude adopted by the pro life movement, the movement will continue to murder innocent life.

          • Arekushieru

            Of course it is not some horrible imposition thrust upon human beings without our consent IF you believe that all women EVERYWHERE must want babies ALL the effing TIME. But here you prove your misogyny, yet, again. A ‘natural’ process is only never an imposition when it comes to PREGNANCY. Y’know something that happens to predominantly FEMALE citizens? So, here, again, we see women treated as livestock, yet we are supposed to believe that human beings are ‘better’ than non-humans? If they aren’t, then your insistence that a fetus can be a human being means that all non-human animals and their zygotes can be considered persons. If they are, then stop treating women as livestock. THAT is how your ilk dehumanizes women. Btw, partly in the main, because of people like YOU, is the reason why I would abort a pregnancy if it were to ever happen to me. So, pat yourselves on the BACK. For doing precisely what you proclaim to be AGAINST.

            Yup, anyone’s liberty ends at the tip of another’s nose (or uterus, as the case may be). As soon as the fetus implants into the uterine wall, its liberty ENDS. So, by your OWN logic, this IS about depriving women of their liberty and granting MORE protections to the liberty of fetuses. Of course, since women aren’t PEOPLE to you. it’s not surprising that you can’t (or, rather, WON’T) apply that neatly shilled soundbite to the woman, HERSELF.

          • prolifemama

            Acknowledging biological fact is not misogyny.
            Not “better” – equal where legal rights are concerned.
            Personhood is a legal status granted by government. Unborn human beings satisfy the question of their humanity – being human – by a simple chromosome-count of any of their cells, which will reveal 46 (excepting the gametes, which contain half the normal number of chromosomes – 23).
            “As soon as the fetus implants into the uterine wall, its liberty ENDS.” And just where would you suggest YOU should have implanted, Arekushieru? In a UPS box? Even after her daughter has been born, she’ll still need 24/7 care for at least 3-5 years before she’s able to even begin caring for herself, that care only diminishing incrementally, as the development of autonomy of human young is a slow and extended process.
            I have never denied the humanity of women, nor their possession of legal rights. I simply and logically extend those rights to women’s children, even while they live and grow in their mothers’ wombs.
            This is the old “Slavery: Are blacks actually people?” debate turned inward toward our youngest family members – our unborn daughters and sons.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What about slave women who were forcibly impregnated and found ways to end their own pregnancies?

          • fiona64

            I just watched a very difficult film last week, “12 Years a Slave,” which was based on the memoir of Solomon Northup. Northup was a free man living in New York who was literally sold down the proverbial river and forced into slavery. Northup’s memoir talks quite openly about young women in the slave markets and how the slavers would talk to potential buyers about the “strong pickaninnies she’ll breed for you.” Ugh.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve read the book but haven’t seen the movie yet–what happened to him and everyone who was a slave–men, women, children–it was horrific.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Fetuses not people, Catholic hospital says in court
            Bob Smietana, USA TODAY8:23 p.m. EST January 24, 2013

            NASHVILLE, Tenn. — A Catholic hospital in Colorado has argued in court documents that it is not liable for the deaths of two 7-month-old fetuses because those fetuses are not people.
            So far, courts have sided with the hospital.
            But that defense contradicts church teaching that human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

          • Arekushieru

            You are NOT simply ‘acknowledging biological fact’. You, YOURSELF, said that you weren’t merely talking about ‘acknowledging biological fact’. Wow, you antis are really against logical discussion, aren’t you?

            Nope, BETTER, because NO human being has the F@$*ING right that you would grant to fetuses. Whether one is HUMAN OR HUMAN BEING is IRRELEVANT to whether or not abortion should be illegal or LEGAL. As I, and MANY other posters, have said over and OVER..

            So, when one’s body touches another person’s nose (or uterus) their liberty does NOT end. Because, by your OWN words, we weren’t talking about whether this occurred ‘naturally’ or not. Oops. You really SHOULD stop putting your foot in your mouth any time soon, now.

            You really do NOT understand the concept of bodily autonomy. even though it has been REPEATED for you, over and over? Wow. I have never met anyone SO dense. In order for a woman to feed a child does she need to put her hand directly on the child’s body consistently and continuously. 24/7? Does she NEED to put her breast in an infant’s mouth. consistently and continuously, 24/7? And I GUARANTEE if that was necessary to preserve an infant or child’s life, a woman OR man would STILL be able to refuse/deny providing such to an infant (in the woman’s case, only) or child (in both cases). The only DIFFERENCE, is that an infant/child can be relinquished for adoption, a fetus cannot be transferred to another uterus or ‘artificial womb’. If YOU want to preserve the fetus’ life the onus is on YOU to create such a capability. The fact that you have spent most of your time arguing against equal rights for women on blogs and boards rather than putting your money towards such research. shows that either you don’t take responsibility for your actions (as you CLAIM other people must do for YOUR benefit) OR you really don’t care about life.

            You compare women to livestock, regularly. You deny them their possession of legal rights, frequently. You grant MORE rights to FETUSES (NOT babies) while they grow in women’s (NOT mothers) uteri (NOT wombs).

            And your last statement is precisely WHY this is the case. Slave-owners were FORCED BIRTH. It is NOT an accident that the people who wanted to deny rights to others and grant more rights to the ‘worthy’ were ANTI-CHOICE. That INCLUDES Hitler.

          • fiona64

            I have never denied the humanity of women, nor their possession of legal
            rights. I simply and logically extend those rights to women’s children,
            even while they live and grow in their mothers’ wombs.

            How many times must it be explained to you that affording “equal” rights to a fetus abrogates rights of the actual women?

            You don’t want a fetus to have “equal” rights. You want women to have fewer rights than a *corpse.*

          • fiona64

            And just where would you suggest YOU should have implanted, Arekushieru? In a UPS box?

            More asinine existential angst.

            Even after her daughter has been born, she’ll still need 24/7 care for
            at least 3-5 years before she’s able to even begin caring for herself,

            *Anyone* can care for an infant. Only one person can be pregnant.

          • goatini

            //I have never denied the humanity of women, nor their possession of legal rights.//

            You’ve never done anything BUT dehumanize living, breathing women, and aggressively advocate for the forcible stripping away of innocent female US citizens’ inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice – which is un-American seditious hate speech.

            //I simply and logically extend those rights to women’s children, even while they live and grow in their mothers’ wombs.//

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth, and all children have already been born, so nothing “logical” there.

            //This is the old “Slavery: Are blacks actually people?” debate//

            Slaves of any ethnicity, including African-American, have already been born, so of course they are persons.

            Same BS, same liar, different day.

          • prolifemama

            Exactly. They are persons only because they have been born. The prolife stance, which I uphold, seeks personhood (legal status) for every human being, from fertilization until death by natural cause (forced starvation/dehydration, assisted suicide, etc., are NOT natural).
            You ‘translate’ this stance into the gobbledygook you continually spout about women being dehumanized. That’s what you’d like to believe we support. But we know better, and you do too.
            The more you insist on redefining the prolife position, the sillier and frankly, more ignorant, you appear. Your hatred is showing.

          • Arekushieru

            Prolonging life is ‘natural’?

            So, we know to whom NOT to go if we are seeking a COMPASSIONATE response to a life of prolonged agony. Hint: It isn’t you.

            You seem COMPLETELY unable to grasp a few key points; one of those being that no person has the right to that which you would grant fetuses. It is not a ‘happy’ coincidence that those who denied black men and women the status of persons were ALSO forced birth. Heck, we don’t even have to talk about race to argue that point. Before women were considered full persons under the law, western countries were, you guessed it, FORCED BIRTH. In countries where abortion is illegal, women are regularly treated as less than human. So, here we have it: Slave-owners, forced birth; Hitler, forced birth; Victorian era westerners, forced birth; Asia and Middle Eastern countries (yes, this includes China, since abortion was, in part, a response to the roundabout outcomes of Pro-‘life’ legislation), forced birth; Countries such as El Salvador, Ireland where women are regularly treated as less than human. forced birth. So, perhaps, you should take a GOOD look at what you support before stating unequivocally that WE are the ones redefining the Pro-‘Life’ position. Because there has to be SOME connection between what you, yourself, describe as two completely repellent ideas. If it’s NOT the fact that those who had the power wanted to deny rights to those they considered inferior (thus removed the status of person from them) and grant rights to themselves, those they considered superior (thus assumed all the privileges, not rights, that came with being considered a person) rather than the other way around (not realizing black men and women as persons, thus no need to grant them rights, and vice versa for themselves, as well), then why is it that these people I mentioned above were Pro-‘life’ not Pro-Choice? Because, again, you, yourself, have stated that it is the Pro-Choice position that wants to deny rights to those who are not considered persons. That it is Pro-‘LIFE’ that makes all humans equal by granting them the status of persons. But, apparently, as has been clearly witnessed by the examples given above, the Pro-‘Life’ position is what results in DENYING groups of humans (PEOPLE) equal rights.

            Women are dehumanized by laws in countries where abortion is illegal, African countries, El Salvador, Ireland, etc…. If that is not your goal, then why do you push policies that resemble the positions of these countries?

            Sounds like you do INDEED want to dehumanize and deny rights to women. Sounds like you are, INDEED, the ones who want to redefine the Pro-‘Life’ position, NOT us. Sounds like you really ARE appearing sillier and more ignorant with each attempt to do so. Finally, it sounds like your hatred (for women) really IS showing more and more.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            You intentionally choose to let innocent babies die.

          • prolifemama

            Apparently, much less obtuse than you.
            No one has the right to kill an innocent human being, which is who and what unborn human beings are. Protecting the lives of those human beings in utero while doing the same for their mothers is equal protection for all human beings involved.
            People used to know this. But after decades of legal abortion in nearly every country of the globe, the human conscience considers the weakest members of our human family as interlopers rather than helpless human beings who need our most loving care and protection.
            All the hard cases presented as justifying abortion are the smallest percentage of why women abort their children. The highest percentage of abortions are done for social reasons, not medical. Guttmacher Institute will verify this.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, still have an inability to grasp even a few simple concepts.

            A fetus is neither innocent (but maintaining that a fetus IS innocent, means that it can also be guilty, and since you’ve waived the capability for intent from determining whether one can be guilty or not, a fetus MUST be guilty, since IT is the one directs the process of conception up TO and including implantation, so, since people CAN kill someone even if they are innocent – think sleepwalking, night terrors, etc…. All real life incidents which involve INDISPUTABLE people with the capacity to be innocent – you keep abortion legal even MORE not only by defaulting a fetus to a ‘guilty’ state but also by imbuing a fetus with the capacity to be innocent by which even indisputable people can be killed, even if they cannot be considered ‘guilty’ by default due to driving the processes of conception), guilty NOR a human being.

            No one is claiming the right to kill anything. You don’t seem to understand how rights work. If there was a right to kill something, killing would be mandated under all but A FEW circumstances. Since ALL that Pro-Choicers want is to have the option to terminate OR continue a pregnancy, as my PRO-CHOICE MOTHER DID, there is no RIGHT TO kill being mandated, here. If there was a right to kill something, you would actually have to INTEND to KILL. Since the reason for an abortion is simply no longer to be pregnant, there is neither intent NOR killing involved. After all, the pregnancy is NOT a fetus (how do you think one can be pregnant without a developing fetus present if that is NOT the case?) and the fact that a fetus dies due to incompatibility with life upon separation from the uterus is the cause of death (iow, what kills it). If there were a way to remove a fetus from the uterus without resulting in the death of a fetus that was equally comparable to the methodologies of abortion, women would be choosing THAT instead. But making women RESPONSIBLE (what you ACTUALLY want to do, NOT simply ‘acknowledge biological fact’) for the way their bodies operate IS misogyny. So, since YOU people are the ones who want to treat women differently by pushing them down to the lowest rung on the ladder. in order to not be misogynists, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that those kinds of things happen. Preferably before, but I know that ain’t likely to happen anytime soon.

            Before abortion was legal it was illegal, and before that it was ‘legal’, insofar as there was no law against it. In that case you can say pretty much the same thing about what people realized during the decades and centuries that abortion WAS illegal. Oops. Which makes that point kinda null and void. Fetuses aren’t helpless. They suppress a woman’s immune system. Why do you think they do that? Perhaps because a woman’s body would perceive it as a threat and attack it? If fetuses were helpless, why would a woman’s body need to do this? Oops? No, we have just finally realized that women should not be blamed for their own biology. And that categorizing fetuses as a special exemption from being perceived as interlopers does exactly that.

            ALL pregnancies everywhere are life-threatening. There is NOT a 0% chance that a woman will die during pregnancy, childbirth or delivery. ALL pregnancies EVERYWHERE are a health risk. But that is irrelevant, because I, and the majority of other Pro-Choicers, really do NOT care what reason a woman aborts. These ‘hard cases presented as justifying abortion’ are a concern of only a MINORITY of Pro-Choicers, if any. Too, you can thank yourselves for forcing women to abort due to social reasons, as well, y’know. Since it is YOUR ilk in political high places that cut funding to programs such as TANF, WIC and SNAP that would generally SUPPORT the women, ESPECIALLY poor women, in maintaining a healthiER pregnancy.

            Finally, I am aware that the Guttmacher Institute verifies this. Your point is…?

          • fiona64

            By which you admit that you want WOMEN to be deprived of life, liberty or property.

            You’re one sick sow.

          • fiona64

            That act will grant them full and equal protection under the law, as all
            citizens enjoy, unless they are found guilty of a crime, and then due
            process of law may proceed.

            What punishment should the woman receive for daring to not want to be pregnant anymore?

          • Ivy Mike

            “Not “more” legal protections, equal legal protections.”…

            This is one of the biggest lies you people spout, and that’s a tall statement.

            Pray tell, of you grant full “personhood” to a ZYGOTE (and I cannot believe that an otherwise sane human would favor such nonsense, absent of course religious brainwashing), how does this NOT reduce the woman carrying it to the status of brood sow?

            How do you possibly enforce this madness through law? Do you monitor each and every female from menarche to menopause to ensure they birth each and every pregnancy? Do you conduct criminal investigations of each and every miscarriage, arresting those who fail to report them to police?

            Do you do as they did in Ireland, and forcibly restrain a suicidal rape victim until you can , without any permission from her, cut her open to remove the fetus? (I cannot imagine the cruelty and indifference to human dignity this would require)

            Do you allow women who are late-term miscarrying to die of sepsis because you think (against all medical expertise) that her fetus could be saved ( this alone, BTW, demolishes your “equal rights” bullshit)?

            This is all where your fevered dreams INEVITABLY lead, as they in fact have, in multiple nations.

            Very simply, you fetishize births to an insane degree. You place magical, mystical significance to them, to the point of obsession. to

          • goatini

            Since your goals are to violate, abrogate, and ultimately erase the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of American citizens, you are an enemy of the American people.

          • Jennifer Starr

            never mind that the word fetus is Latin for little one, child, baby, take your pick.

            Not actually true. In fact, we’ve refuted this little gem from you before, haven’t we? Short memory?

          • prolifemama

            Your “refutation” is refuted every time someone looks up “fetus” on several independent, abortion-neutral, online dictionaries.

          • fiona64

            You are too stupid for color TV.

          • fiona64

            never mind that the word fetus is Latin for little one, child, baby, take your pick.

            Never mind that this is just another piece of under-educated bullshit.

            It’s actually Middle English, *derived from Latin,* and means “the act of bringing forth offspring.*

            You need to crack a fuckin’ book, lady.

            Science really bugs these folks

            That’s rich, coming from a science-denying idiot like you.

          • prolifemama

            Soooo…..your own selected definition (from dictionary.com, no less, it would appear – no book-cracking for you, eh, fiona?) undermines your argument, as “bringing forth offspring” implies giving birth. And referring to fetuses as “offspring” is something you scolded me for a while back.
            Additionally, once born, fetuses are generally referred to as babies. Unless you meant, dear, to call the unborn fetus a baby, in which case …

          • goatini

            All babies, ever, have already been born. Why do you hate America and our freedoms, liberties, and civil rights?

          • prolifemama

            You seem to believe that a woman’s opinion of her fetus literally changes the reality of his/her existence. If she “wants” her conceptus, then he/she’s a baby. If she doesn’t “want” her baby, he/she’s only an inanimate construct. Suppose the woman fluctuates several times a day between wanting and not wanting. Does her fetus stop growing/urninating/breathing amniotic fluid/moving arms and legs during those moments he/she’s not wanted, then ‘magically’ re-animating when he/she’s “wanted”, only to change back to ex-animate tissue the second mama again doesn’t want him/her?
            What would you say to an abortive young woman who delivers her dying baby into a toilet, and sees her/him struggling in the cold water and blood? Would you tell her she was just imagining it, that she’d seen too many Disney audio-animatronic movies?
            Why do you hate/fear/avoid/deny biological fact?

          • fiona64

            More asinine straw men. Quelle surprise.

          • goatini

            All babies, ever, have already been born. The medical term is “infant”. And your imagination is a lurid cesspool of “religion”, misogyny, and fetus porn.

            Why do you hate America and our freedoms, liberties, and civil rights?

          • Arekushieru

            No, who says calling an entity that is not born a fetus rather than a baby means that it’s inanimate? NOT us. That’s all on YOU people. The fetus doesn’t ‘breathe’.

            Look, if a fetus could suspend its organic processes at will, it could survive outside of the uterus and you would not be able to hold the life of the fetus against women who don’t want to be pregnant, removing their Constitutional Rights from living, breathing, INDISPUTABLE persons to satisfy your greedy and sadistic desires to ensure that other people suffer as it suits your whims. PROVING that this is not about ‘life’ but about controlling WOMEN.

            Besides, even MOST women who WANT their pregnancies don’t enjoy the whole pregnancy all of the time. Which goes to show that your previous claim about pregnancy not being a horrible imposition is a complete and UTTER lie. as usual, given that even women who WANT their pregnancies can feel the same way about it that women who don’t, do. Oops.

          • prolifemama

            Around week 32, a fetus “practice-breathes” by taking the surrounding amniotic fluid into her lungs and expelling it, readying her lungs for actual breathing when she’s born.
            Do you deliberately miss my point, or do you just not get it?
            I maintain: pro-aborts appear to believe that their opinions create reality. Some actually say that a woman’s baby isn’t a baby until she decides so.
            Pre-school fantasy.

          • Arekushieru

            So, since I call non-human animals baby, that makes them a baby. See, it is YOU who does not get the point, ESPECIALLY so, since, when you refer to us as ‘pro-aborts’ you are using a term that is JUST AS anti-choice as Pro-‘Life’.

            No, YOU are merely self-projecting (including regarding the comment opinions creating reality, because that’s YOUR ilks specialty). My POINT was that just calling a fetus a fetus does not suddenly make it stop ‘practice-breathing’. Just as suddenly calling it a baby does not make it suddenly RESUME ‘practice-breathing’. Do YOU get MY point, now?

          • fiona64

            Around week 32, a fetus “practice-breathes” by taking the surrounding
            amniotic fluid into her lungs and expelling it, readying her lungs for
            actual breathing when she’s born.

            Um, what? This is a myth. It would result in damage to the lungs and aspiration of meconium.

          • goatini

            Oh please, don’t be ridiculous.

          • prolifemama

            Ask an OB/Gyn.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry you’re so fucking stupid, but it’s not really my fault. Do we still speak Middle English? No? Then STFU. Seriously. You do not understand etymology any more than you understand human anatomy, obviously.

          • fiona64

            Additionally, once born, fetuses are generally referred to as babies.

            That is because, genius, fetii exist only in utero. Are you really this goddamned dense?

          • Arekushieru

            Um, you apparently do not know how the term bringing forth can be used. It can be used as a verb to describe what is CURRENTLY happening or what the GOAL is.

            Again, though, placenta, Latin for cake. Can I haz placenta, now?

          • prolifemama

            “It (the term “bringing forth”) can be used…” So what’s your point? That’s exactly what I said – it can be used to mean birth.

            Re placenta IS cake.
            Wiktionary says: Etymology[edit]. From Medieval Latin placenta uterina (“uterine cake”), from Latin placenta (“flat cake”), because of the flat round shape of the afterbirth.
            As far as actually eating placenta – there’s quite a lot of info (including recipes!) online. Have at it, dearie.

          • Arekushieru

            My point was that it’s not LITERALLY cake as Fiona’s comment to YOU was that fetus didn’t LITERALLY mean child. Oops. Thanks for proving our point, though!

            Also, you don’t read very well, do you? Bring forth as in actually ending with goal of an ACTUAL offspring. Meaning, that, at the time it was NOT offspring, but after (the GOAL was reached) it WAS offspring. Oops.

          • prolifemama

            Jennifer, Laurie made the best choice for herself AND her child. You gurls always seem to forget the babies, even after they’ve been granted a permanent stay of execution and been permitted to continue living.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, that’s YOU and YOUR ilk. YOUR ilk cuts funding for social programs like TANF, WIC or SNAP, forcing young, impoverished single women to rely on less stable funding from CHARITIES. You NEVER remember the woman in the equation, EVER. Laurie is Pro-CHOICE like US. Of COURSE we agree with her decision, OOPS? Because she CHOSE to carry to term.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you always seem to forget the born children, particularly when you want to kill them by selfishly denying them vital organ transplants so you and quack Byrne can play your “brain dead isn’t really-for-reals dead game”.

          • fiona64

            Nope, idiot, she made the best choice for *herself.* Stop erasing the woman from the picture.

          • prolifemama

            Fiona, you must possess only one working eyeball, which evidently makes it difficult for you to see a mother and her baby in the same glance. I can always see both at the same time, together.

          • goatini

            That’s another lie from you. You see actual living, breathing, born, innocent female US citizens only as animals – livestock to be exploited, humanity to be stripped away along with the civil, human and Constitutional rights you aggressively work to have stripped away.

            Why do you hate America?

          • prolifemama

            If you continue to accuse me of lying, you must provide proof that I am doing so. Your ‘ability’ to turn truth on its head does not constitute said “proof.”

          • fiona64

            We have disproved your assertions on numerous occasions, with references. That’s pretty easy to do, when your assertions are lies.

          • goatini

            Actually, it works the other way around: people who want to try to catapult 100% pure-D BS need to provide proof that the BS is “true”. The only persons turning “truth on its head” here are forced-birthers grasping at straws.

          • fiona64

            GFY. Laurie chose for HERSELF. You are the one who keeps pretending that it’s all about “babies,” when the reality says otherwise.

          • fiona64

            PS: Where are the sources we’ve been requesting for *weeks* now?

            Either cough them up or admit you’re a liar.

            Your continued silence on the matter strongly implies that you have no sources … not that I’m surprised.

            So, I ask again: where is your source that states CPCs have medical personnel on staff? And, if that is the case, what is your response to CPCs’ objections to placing signage that says they don’t? Just one of many articles on the matter: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2014/01/anti-abortion_crisis_pregnancy_center_lawsuit_chris_slattery_evergreen_association_new_york.php (I believe this is the third or fourth *different* source I have provided to you).

            So … hop to it. Provide us a source that proves CPCs have medical personnel on staff. Or admit that you’re a liar. Either one will do.

          • prolifemama

            I forget why this is so important to you, ffiona – why do you require CPCs to have medical personnel on staff?
            And thanks for the GoodForYou below – I appreciate encouragement, yours especially! ;)

          • Jennifer Starr

            You were actually the one who claimed this in a previous post. Trying to back out of it because you know you’re lying?

          • fiona64

            You were the one who claimed, well over a month ago, that CPCs had medical staff on site. We have been asking for references/citations ever since.

            You subsequently asked us to name one thing for which you had not provided a citation. Out of the hundreds of things for which you had not provided a citation, several of us again those this issue.

            I think it’s past time for you to admit that you lied about this, don’t you?

          • fiona64

            And thanks for the GoodForYou below – I appreciate encouragement, yours especially! ;)

            Don’t try to be witty; you lack the capacity.

            I do indeed, however, strongly encourage you to go fuck yourself.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Here is your quote from a month ago:

            prolifemama • a month ago

            These “fake clinics” you hate so much have secured the help of doctors in various fields including obstetrics, neonatal, pediatrics
            – who provide their services as yearly charitable donations for those of limited means.

            They also put parents of high-need children (Down’s Syndrome, anencephalic, Spina Bifida, etc.) in touch with specialists who donate their services as well, in addition to the network of ‘mundane’ care available (job-sharing, housing, clothing, groceries, etc., etc., etc.).

            Surely if this is true, you must have sources to back it up.

          • fiona64

            She also told us that there are licensed sonographers and radiologists on staff … and has failed to provide any sourcing for *that* as well.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes she did. Wonder if she’ll back any of it up, though I’m not holding my breath.

          • goatini

            Flagged for hate speech against disabled persons.

          • prolifemama

            And what “hate speech” do you mean?

          • goatini

            Hate speech against visually disabled persons:

            //you must possess only one working eyeball, which evidently makes it difficult for you to see a mother and her baby in the same glance//

          • prolifemama

            So, you’ve actually got impaired vision, goatini? If so, I do apologize for offending you. But my post was simply expressing my dismay at your inability to do the “both/and” thing regarding mothers and unborn babies. You seem to only see either/or.
            I volunteer as a reader for a radio service for the blind. You should hear the jokes they make about each other, all day long. No hatred there, just gallows humor.
            You need to lighten up. A LOT.

          • prolifemama

            Hate speech? What would that be, exactly?
            You – The F-Bomb queen – accusing anyone of hate speech is rich.

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, what using the f-word is not hate speech. Sorry, not sorry.

          • fiona64

            Telling you to fuck off is not hate speech. Your hate speech against people with visual disabilities (one of which I do not happen to be, but nevertheless), OTOH …

          • goatini

            //You – The F-Bomb queen//

            I have to laugh, because I can’t think of a single time I’ve ever used the four-letter “F-bomb” on RHRC. Therefore I can only surmise that the, ahem, “F-bomb” you refer to is FREEDOM. Since I do use the word FREEDOM often in my messages here, as in the civil rights and FREEDOM of innocent female US citizens.

          • prolifemama

            So you don’t count your usage of variation on the F-bomb, such as ProLIEmofo…
            I see.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think you love pearl-clutching over language. It’s a convenient way for you to dodge having to answer questions and provide actual evidence.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Fuck yourself, ProDeathMooMoo. That should give you something to talk about.

          • goatini

            Nope.

          • Arekushieru

            The best choice for a woman often includes the best choice for any POTENTIAL as well as RESULTING child. If a woman is not ready to parent, it is a resulting CHILD that will suffer. Read up on Andrea Yates. A poster ‘child’ for the Pro-‘Life’ movement, why don’t you?

            Proving the LIE to your words about concern for BOTH. ONLY the fetus up until it is birthed.

            Abortion is NOT execution. SFS.

          • prolifemama

            The deliberate killing of an innocent human being is NEVER best for that human being. It only emphasizes the killer’s disproportionate self-focus and unwillingness to endure personal inconvenience so that another human being’s needs might be accommodated. In other words, self-centeredness taken to a deadly (for the unborn) extreme.
            Abortion is precisely execution, without trial or leniency.

          • Arekushieru

            A fetus is neither innocent nor a human being. I guess you want to call ALL animals human beings, though. After all, you like equating human women with livestock.

            Abortion doesn’t involve killing. Although it IS deliberate, death is not evil. If death is evil, then everything must be evil because we are all HEADING TOWARDS DEATH, Oi. SUFFERING is. Suffering is evil because it punishes (which can only happen with live, because the dead do not feel, and AWARE, because the unaware do not have the ability to even form a concept of consent or the lack thereof) ACTUAL innocents. You PUNISH a baby (who is aware by virtue of the FACT that its field of perception is no longer narrowed to the operation of its own bodily processes, since it is left in a coma-like state through MUCH of the pregnancy, or, rather, no longer self-centered, in your OWN words) by forcing an unwilling woman/man/both to parent it who then beat and starve the child until near-death. It’s a case that currently happened in my own city. And one of the children involved DIED, not by their own hand, ANYWAYS, And AFTER they had already known suffering, rather than before. SOOOOO comPASSionate, right?

            Nope, it emphasizes the woman’s NON-hypocrisy in defending her bodily autonomy, which is presupposed by life, too. Because, at the same time, it emphasizes YOUR hypocrisy, because I’m sure if you were being raped (and ONLY talking about rape, here, because it happens REGARDLESS of intent on the part of the perpetrator, or cause on the part of the victim), you would defend yourself WOULDN’T you? Rape which, when compared to pregnancy, is so much LESS of a bodily inconvenience than forced gestation. That you would even CALL pregnancy a mere ‘inconvenience’ is so DISGUSTING and beyond the PALE.

            YOUR self-centeredness in forcing OTHER women to face a PERSONAL medical condition against their will because of sad fee fees for the BAAYYYYBBEEEZ is taken to a deadly (for the women, since pregnancy IS the third deadliest medical condition for women WORLDWIDE) extreme.

            Abortion is not execution. Or I could call what YOU want to do with pregnant women, execution, but I don’t because I care about FACTS. And you want to make women face it without trial or leniency.

            Seriously, self-project MUCH?

          • fiona64

            It only emphasizes the killer’s disproportionate self-focus and unwillingness to endure personal inconvenience

            Gestation is a whole fucking lot more than mere “inconvenience.” It is a risky venture that kills women every day.

            You can take your “inconvenience” argument and shove it sideways.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The questions were rude and intrusive. I would never ask those personal questions of a total stranger. Would you?

          • a7xrocker1981

            Here how about I start on a better note and not be so much of a stranger? Hi, I am a7xrocker1981. I am female, almost 20, and have a myriad of tattoos, piercings, and am due to have a baby in 2 weeks. I love heavy metal music, I am a speed shredder and singer, and am passionate about pro life causes, gay rights and gun rights.

            I believe in choice. But here is the thing, why do you get to make choice. Because you have life. The unborn baby has no choice, so by killing it and not asking it if that is what it wants you are shockingly anti choice. Abortion gives only one choice, a dead child, birthing a baby can give you more, parenting the child with resources, adoption, open adoption. 3 good choices vs one bad one.

            You are not pro choice? You are pro ” wanted” life and anti ” unwanted” LIFE!!!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well, you can certainly try asking an embryo or fetus, but let’s be honest here. You’ll probably just end up answering yourself in a squeaky, high-pitched voice. Would be funny to watch, though.

          • a7xrocker1981

            Okay, so now it is okay to do whatever I want with someone because they can’t talk. My severely disabled cousin can’t talk. I ask her if she wants to live, she will not respond. Should I answer myself in a squeaking tone?

            SICKO!!!
            Plus, fetuses( I am in a good mood right now and will use that term to be nice) have been shown to resist suction machines and writhe in pain as they are being burnt with acid in late term abortions. They can feel pain at 20 weeks(22 LMP, also the edge of viability) you know.

          • Arekushieru

            Oh, please, those are just reflex. And that thing has been debunked a LONG time ago.

            No, it is okay, by YOUR ilk’s logic, to speak for the fetus even though it HAS no voice, that is ALL she is saying. Oops?

          • a7xrocker1981

            My cousin does not have a voice!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            She doesn’t sign? Write? Type? Semaphore?

          • fiona64

            Is your cousin still attached to her mother via an umbilicus?

          • Arekushieru

            Did I say they DID? Jesus wept. PLEASE learn2READ?

          • prolifemama

            Arekushieru, babies feeling pain at 20 weeks has been “debunked”? Denied, undoubtedly, by proaborts, but … debunked? I doubt your claim.
            Please provide your proof.
            By the way, reflex is our bodies’ way of saving us from getting more than a simple blister from touching a hot burner. Read up on it.

          • Arekushieru

            Yes, it has been debunked. And if you lived in Reality Land and moved past the 1950s, you would know that. Yes, reflex is a way of saving our bodies, but it doesn’t always happen because of pain. So, I don’t think I’M the one who needs to read up on it. So sorry.

          • fiona64

            Arekushieru, babies feeling pain at 20 weeks has been “debunked”?

            It’s been debunked by the reality of human anatomy, as I cited above. Of course, you think that reality is “pro-abort propaganda” (because you’re an idiot). Here’s one of many sources:
            http://pregnancy.familyeducation.com/third-trimester/29-weeks-2-days.html

            Quote (emphasis added): For nerves to function effectively and signals to pass along them faster, they need insulating. In a process known as myelination, the nerves are insulated with myelin sheaths of fat. Although all of the components of the nervous system are present from an early stage of development, the peripheral sensory and motor nerves, spinal cord, and brain need the entire pregnancy to develop and function as a unit. The nerves of the brain and spinal cord carry the sensations of pain, temperature, and touch. However, the process of myelination is ongoing and will not be complete until the final few weeks of pregnancy, so your baby does not register or recognize pain, temperature, and touch at this stage.

            Just pointing out, my dear imbecile, that this is at 29 weeks’ gestation. I chose a layman’s site so that you don’t have to clutch your pearls at scary medical terminology.

            You’re welcome.

          • Jennifer Starr

            writhe in pain as they are being burnt with acid

            Has never happened. And unless your cousin is inside the body of another, that’s a rather pointless question.

          • a7xrocker1981

            Fetuses move on their own in the womb, sleep and wake up on their own, I will be awake when he is asleep believe me I know, and I can’t control when he kicks or not. I also cannot control when he urinates, when he hiccups and when he voluntarily practices breathing, which they start doing at about 20 weeks. All he can’t do on his own, at this point at least he could, is breathe, but he is viable so he can.

            Just after birth, he will not be able to walk for about a year, he will not be able to talk for about 2 years or use the toilet for about 2 years.

            Why? Because that takes time. We are born because we developed for nine months, or however long we were in the womb, in some cases only five months. Why do we have to be dependent on a mother to carry us in the womb? Because evolution decided that was the best way for us to survive. If not, why not we just lay eggs?

            Or better yet, how about you develop a way for a woman not to be pregnant and the unborn child not be killed?
            Sound like a fair deal.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m assuming there’s an actual point to this word salad? Or are you just telling us that you’d rather lay eggs?

          • fiona64

            Fetii don’t breathe in utero, sweetie.

            Good lord. Please, i beg of you, do not homeschool — for your future child’s sake.

          • prolifemama

            Yes they do, darling. They ‘practice-breathe-in’ their amniotic fluid.
            Sheesh! Read a book!

          • fiona64

            They ‘practice-breathe-in’ their amniotic fluid.
            Sheesh! Read a book!

            You first, idiot. http://www.beginbeforebirth.org/in-the-womb/fetal-development

            Quote: The fetus does not actually breathe in the womb. The mother breathes for the fetus, and essential oxygen is passed to the fetus through the umbilical cord.

            “Breathing-like movements,” BTW, is not *breathing.* You’re welcome.

          • Ramanusia

            Um, no they don’t darling. Seriously, read a book yourself, and try one that’s giving you facts. That’s not how lungs work, sheesh!

          • Donna L

            Well said rocker girl!!! So sad it’s wasted on their ” ilk”
            They don’t care about options like you said. They are extremists unwilling to face reality
            Best wishes with your pregnancy and your future. You will be a great mom! You have a kind heart and ferocity of mama bear !

            It’s funny to luster to their medical babble and ridiculous insults bc they can’t face the facts. Have to twist everything.
            God forbid anyone disagrees–the venom spews and claws come out.
            Ps I’m publicly schooled (Fiona) and survived! Ha ha.

          • fiona64

            They are extremists unwilling to face reality

            That’s an apt description of every anti-choice idiot who’s ever showed up here …

          • Jennifer Starr

            to luster to their medical babble

            You flunked English, didn’t you?

          • Ramanusia

            Do you think she passed anything at all? She “survived”, but attaining her degree by some other method, since clearly passing the classes is not the method she used.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, the ones who only have one option, forced pregnancy, are the extremists. The ones that have more than one option occupy the middle ground. Nowhere, yet, have you been able to face reality.

            Yeah, when someone doesn’t understand something it tends to become babble to them. Face facts? Yeah, I know you can’t face facts, what of it? Ridiculous insults? My are YOU sensitive or what? Just someone turning your venom spews and claws against with a little more force to drive home the point becomes an ‘insult’ to you.

          • JamieHaman

            Sadly, surviving is not the same as thriving. Looks like you failed Biology One.

          • Ramanusia

            You mean those of us who are educated, can think independently and have been countering with facts that neither of you can seem to handle well? That ilk?

            The “ilk” that actually promotes options and allowing women to choose, unlike your extremist viewpoint of forcing ALL women to gestate because this one rapist you know did it, and the victim might forgive him someday?

            Sweetie, she’s a liar like yourself, she’s probably not any of the things she claimed to be, and she has the mind of a hibernating bear, not a kind one at all.

            It’s funny that you think medical facts are ‘babble’ and you haven’t “lustered” anything but your own lies, it’s you who seems to be allergic to facts, who feels the need to twist everything.

            Um, you’re the one who started with the venom spewing and the hate claws in your first message and first response to me.

            You weren’t schooled at all, you failed badly, and you’re why this country keeps getting outstripped by countries who actually bother to educate their children.

            No wonder my parents were so adamant about avoiding the public school system, I listen to people like you and I’m so very thankful they took the time to ensure I actually received an education and was taught to seek out truth and facts and disdain ignorance and idiocy.

            I’m so sorry that your parents and your school system failed you so badly, and I’d like you to return the funds wasted on that public school system that produced you, that’s a lot of wasted money for a truly miserable end product.

          • fiona64

            Why do we have to be dependent on a mother to carry us in the womb?

            Being viviparous vertebrates probably has something to do with that. ::eyeroll::

          • goatini

            //Or better yet, how about you develop a way for a woman not to be pregnant and the unborn child not be killed? //

            Sorry, there’s NO way I’d let vicious, demented hate-filled theocratic monsters like you have my DNA. Pearls before swine.

          • a7xrocker1981

            First of all I am an atheist, so that religious attack was a wrong and ignorant remark. Second of all, you want vicious. How about you see how a baby is really killed by abortion. Ripped limb from limb. That is a fact, and you not liking a fact does not make it false. Just like you disagreeing with Texas’ HB2 does not make it unconstitutional. It has been upheld by a federal appeals court. a court and only a court can say if a law is constitutional or not. A fetus having a heartbeat 18 days after conception is also a fact. You can claim all you want it is false because you want it to be false, but it is not.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ripped limb from limb. That is a fact,

            Actually, no, that isn’t a fact.

          • Ivy Mike

            For an alleged “atheist”, you sure like to use all the religious/Catholic talking points you can! BTW, you haven’t YET used either a secular or correct argument yet.

            Just one i’ll demolish: 80+% of abortions take place before 12 weeks, and are done by medication. No “ripped apart baaaabeeez!”, except in religious, anti-choice propaganda.

            In fact, the only procedure that even resembled your gorehound fantasy is illegal.

            Looks like 19-year-olds really don’t know everything.

          • Ramanusia

            Small correction, it’s over 90% that take place before 12 weeks. And the abortion porn she’s referring to is the propaganda they’ve created. I recall seeing it in religion class in 9th grade, it was pretty apparent to a 13 year old that the procedure wasn’t an abortion, it was a stillborn extraction.

          • catseye

            Something I’ve been wondering about: What does the “1981” in her screen handle stand for? If it’s her birth year, she’s actually 32 or 33; NOT 19.

          • fiona64

            Your fantasy life is vivid, I’ll give you that. Aborted tissue is indistinguishable from menses.

          • goatini

            No babies are ever killed, or even harmed in any way, in a safe, legal pregnancy termination.

            Mayor Parker of Houston and the majority of the Houston City Council are fighting HB2, which IS un-Constitutional.

            At 18 days, it’s an embryo.

            So you haven’t presented any facts yet. I don’t expect any.

            And you’re no more an “atheist” than you are an “edgy young rocker”. Probably not even female, either.

          • Ramanusia

            That’s such utter bull that you’re an atheist, the abortion porn which you’ve been treated to is produced by the Church and disseminated by the church. What your abortion porn shows you is quite literally a stillborn fetus being removed from a woman, at an advanced age when it’s harmful to her to deliver the fetus whole. In over 90% of abortions done in the U.S. there are no limbs, and what you see when you “look” at an abortion is a woman passing a blood clot. Not liking the facts don’t make them false, and liking your own abortion porn version doesn’t make those fact based either.

            Texas HB2 is unconstitutional on its face, it doesn’t matter how much we dislike it or how much you love it, the Constitution doesn’t allow you to pass crap like that. In fact that’s what judges keep saying, in every case where that ALEC processed nonsense has been evaluated and for the same reasons.

            A fetus has no heart at 18 days, so it’s not a fact at all, it has some cells that vibrate, it doesn’t have a 4 chambered mammalian heart. You can claim whatever you’d like as well, but just because you claim it’s a fact, it doesn’t change constitutionality, nor does it change biological realities, and misusing words doesn’t change their meaning either.

          • Arekushieru

            A fetus is put into a comatose like state in utero. Are you also aware that the original purpose of the uterus was most likely to defend female mammals from parasites? No, how about YOU do that, seeing as YOU’RE the ones that want to strip rights from women simply because of their genotype.

          • Ramanusia

            Oy, seriously? He can’t process oxygen, he can’t digest, he can’t filter his own blood, that’s what he’s using your heart, your lungs and your kidneys for. That’s kind of a lot, so “he” is not viable, since viability is literally the ability to live on his own outside your body and HIS LUNGS ARE NOT FORMED. He has no alveoli, should “he” try to breath, his lungs, which have the consistency of his liver right now would do nothing and he’d be dead, hence NOT VIABLE.

            Not all conceptions or pregnancies lead to a live birth, it’s kind of why as a human species we’ve all placed the time of considering this undeveloped human a person, a member of the community at some time after birth. Either weeks after birth or a year or even older.

            In no case has a premature birth at 5 months lived. Period.

            How about we just develop a system in which a woman gets to continue to have the same human rights no matter what her pregnancy state and she gets to still have the rights to bodily autonomy, which even the most vile mass murderer gets to keep even after he’s executed for his crimes.

            You know what sounds like a fair deal? You keep your opinions and your decisions focused on your own body and the rest of us will likewise keep our medical decisions limited to our own? That sounds like a fair deal. Also, if you wish to practice medicine, I suggest you get a medical education first.

          • prolifemama

            Happened all the time when saline abortions were the rage, and were still widely done as late as the 90s..

            Ever met Gianna Jessen, heard her give her talk on her survival of a saline abortion?

            Ever talk with a woman who’s had a saline abortion, and felt her child thrashing around while his/her skin was burnt off and his/her internal organs were destroyed by the saline that is many times the concentration of normal human saline.

          • goatini

            Jessen is a fraud and her “story” has been completely debunked.

          • fiona64

            Gianna Jessen

            Debunked.

          • JamieHaman

            Would you like to read some actual facts about Illinois laws and this woman’s abortion? Here ya go. http://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/born-alive-baloney/

          • prolifemama

            No, the “add” doesn’t answer your questions. But Miss Jessen’s April 22, 1996 testimony before a Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee, does.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for proving that you didn’t bother to look at the link.

            As usual.

          • goatini

            Liars “testify” in front of Congress all the time. Jessen is just another notorious perjurer like the evil liar Stanek.

          • JamieHaman

            Yes, it did tell me the woman who adopted her was cruel enough to tell her this cruelty trash.
            Sadism from her adopted mother.
            Btw, people lie all the time to Congress.

          • prolifemama

            You deny that botched abortions occur, and that babies are born alive from such procedures?

          • fiona64

            The citations have already been provided to you that debunk Jessen’s fairytale. No one’s fault but YOURS that you didn’t bother to read them, dearie.

          • JamieHaman

            Documentation for Jessens’ story? Not interested in moving goal post convo’s. When you post actual documentation for her story, I’m prepared to answer this question, and continue this conversation. Not before.

          • prolifemama

            The onus is upon you, Jamie, to prove that it didn’t happen, as Miss Jessen can document her story as fact.
            Interesting…you declare it “cruel” to tell Gianna the facts about her “birth” but NOT cruel to kill a living unborn child by chemically burning her to death from the inside out…

          • JamieHaman

            No, the onus is not. Because I am not the one who brought her and her claims into the conversation.
            Yes, It is cruel to tell a living breathing person that, no, it isn’t cruel to abort a fetus, because a fetus feels no pain.
            If she has documentation, which you claim, where is it? A testimony is not documentation. doctor reports are. Hospital records are, for whatever skin and eye treatments she had to have after birth.
            Testimony from the treating doctor would be documentation.
            Got any of that?
            Cool. Bring it to the table.

          • goatini

            There is no documentation of Jessen’s ludicrous story.

          • JamieHaman

            I don’t think I’ve ever seen her post a credible link to back up a single claim she has made.

          • goatini

            Jessen has never been able to document her ludicrous story as “fact”.

          • fiona64

            Jamie provided a link that shows all of the laws, timing, etc., that make Jessen’s story an impossibility. ProLieMama is just pissed about it.

          • prolifemama

            Perhaps not to your satisfaction. But her documents are verifiable. And she met her biological mother. Every claim Gianna Jessen makes can be, and has been, substantiated.
            But keep on livin’ in DeNile River.

          • fiona64

            Every claim Gianna Jessen makes can be, and has been, substantiated.

            No, you stupid sow, it has not. In fact, her claims were handily debunked by the reference Jamie provided and that you clearly did not bother to look at because you can’t handle FACTS.

          • goatini

            Well, NO, they haven’t.

          • fiona64

            The onus is upon you, Jamie, to prove that it didn’t happen

            Anyone with half a brain knows that proving a negative is not possible.

            The debunking of Jessen’s story has already been provided. It’s no one’s fault but yours that you didn’t bother to look at the information, you gormless bint.

          • Ramanusia

            Saline is not acid. You really are the most gullible people aren’t you? Just how much did you folks pay this Gianna person for telling you a story that made you feel like your failed attacks on women was not the self hating crime, that it is?

            Um, ever talk to a real doctor about how an abortion is actually performed? Learned what a child is, or figured out that at the age of the 90% of abortions that happen in this country, there is no skin or internal organs or any “movement” going on that anyone can feel?

            Ever actually learn a single thing about the procedure you hate so much, and about which you know squat? I’m guessing no, from the silly propaganda that you quote. Didn’t you know how much your bishops have spent creating these lies for you to repeat?

          • fiona64

            Plus, fetuses( I am in a good mood right now and will use that term to
            be nice) have been shown to resist suction machines and writhe in pain
            as they are being burnt with acid in late term abortions. They can feel
            pain at 20 weeks(22 LMP, also the edge of viability) you know.</I.

            Wow, it's so generous of you to use correct medical terminology. /snark

            The rest of your post is a bunch of fact-free twaddle. If you hadn't been homeschooled, you would know that a) response to noxious stimuli is not indicative of pain (pithed frogs respond to noxious stimuli, and they can't feel a thing) and b) that it is physiologically *impossible* for a fetus to experience pain until so late in pregnancy that abortion absent medical necessity is a moot point. The myelin sheath, which is what completes the neurological "circuit," if you will, is not fully in place until approximately 28 weeks' gestation. Even then, since anesthesia is systemic, when the woman whose pregnancy has gone wrong is anesthetized, so is the fetus.

            I'm glad to have rectified this gap in your education. You may wish to plan future visits to crackafrigginbook dot com so that you do not look so ignorant in future.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, so they would like us to believe. And, also, being in pain is not a reason to deny someone their human rights. Why can’t they GET that?

          • Donna L

            Fiona so much flaunted medical knowledge out to waste.
            I pray you wake up to the truth before its too late.
            Enough medical babble. You just can’t handle the truth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry that actual medical knowledge upsets you so.

          • Ramanusia

            The truth burn them, or causes an anaphylactic reaction, no wonder they’re so terrified of it!

          • Ivy Mike

            .
            What a shame that actual scientific facts destroy your emotion-and-superstition laden nonsense, huh? You’ve been caught regurgitating lies on this very thread, just like your new BFF.

            We get it…medical science shows you to be wrong, so instead of admitting that and moving on, like all fanatics you handwave it away.

          • fiona64

            I’m laughing at you, sweetie. Really, really laughing at you.

            Your anger at not understanding medical terminology demonstrates at least some shame of being so ignorant. And I’m glad to see that. Come back once you’ve educated yourself.

            Only one of us here can’t handle facts, and it’s not me …

          • fiona64

            PS: Please, oh Madame Genius, tell me how my medical knowledge is “out to waste”? I’m dying to know WTF that even *means.*

          • Ella Warnock

            Too late for what?

          • goatini

            You don’t have an iota of “truth”.

          • Ramanusia

            Well, of course not, can you imagine the hypersensitivity reactions to exposure to even that much truth?

          • JamieHaman

            Medical babble???? Those are called actual facts!
            You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
            Fiona is right both to educate her, call her out where she is wrong, and to tell her the truth.

          • Ramanusia

            Her medical knowledge is not wasted at all, it counters the lies your brainwashed antis spew. I pray you wake up to the truth of your utter ignorance before it is too late, enough babble! It seems that you cannot handle the truth and it bothers you when you’re exposed to it.

            Does it burn, is that why you’re so averse to the truth? And who do you “pray” to? A horned creature who encourages you to lie to others and attack those who correct your propaganda? Does he smell of brimstone? That’s what you faux xtian fairy tales say, isn’t it?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Rocker is into murderporn. Lucky us.

          • Ramanusia

            Um, no one mentioned the ability to talk, that’s just you and your own sickness that decided to air out your contempt towards this supposed cousin of yours.

            Fetus is the correct word, what does being nice have to do with it, would you use some made up thing if you were in a bad mood? That’s pretty weird. Fetuses have been shown to “resist” nothing, quite literally and they don’t have a functional neuronal system to even feel pain, or are they ever ‘burnt with acid’ at any point. The neuronal development and all the published studies on fetal pain show that this system doesn’t get going until a few weeks before birth, like week 35ish, and viability is pretty much at the age of lung maturation which at the lower end is 27 weeks.

            So, yeah we know the facts, you do not it seems. Here is a hint: seek science without a political bias and you might not make such a fool of yourself when you attempt to use propaganda to make a point. The embryology just proves you to be a gullible and uneducated fool who really should seek some help for those violent tendencies towards your cousin, because you can’t tell the difference between an undeveloped fetus and a born person who simply doesn’t wish to speak to you.

          • a7xrocker1981

            I will do the same thing with my dog. But call me a murderer if I kill it and don’t want it.

          • goatini

            Your dog has already been born.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Unless it’s a stuffed dog, it communicates with you.

          • fiona64

            I feel sorry for any progeny of an idiot who thinks animals don’t communicate.

          • Arekushieru

            I believe in choice. But here is the thing, why do you get to make the choice whether or not to defend yourself from rape. Because you have life. The perpetrator has no choice, so by using deadly force and not asking him/her if that is what they want you are shockingly anti-choice. Oops. But, of course, when the perpetrator is a fetus, only THEN are even YOU people worried about whether or not they have a ‘choice’. Besides, not all fetuses want to be born. So, by YOUR logic, you are denying it a choice. And, YES, I know this for a fact, because at least a few people have told me that they wish they had been aborted BEFORE they could feel anything, y’know, the COMPASSIONATE way, rather than your ilk’s cruelty and sadism-laden and -driven way.

          • Donna L

            Have you listened to the victim in CO That along with those other girls was held captive for years and had a child from it.
            She loved the child and is in process of forgiving her attacker.
            (Sorry I forget their names).

            You always go to extremes. Can’t generalize the other 98 percent.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Have you listened to the victim in CO That along with those other girls was held captive for years and had a child from it.
            She loved the child and is in process of forgiving her attacker.

            And what does that have to do with anyone else’s decision?

          • fiona64

            And what does ONE person’s choice have to do with ANOTHER person’s choice?

            You know, I once heard of a person whose third cousin heard of another person. I can’t remember their names, though.

          • Arekushieru

            She was FORCED to gestate her pregnancy. YOU want ALL people to be forced like she was? That makes you just like Ariel Castro. Whether or not she forgives him, it also doesn’t mean that she WANTED to be forced into gestating the pregnancy. He also forcibly terminated one of the other woman’s pregnancies over and over, again. Something, we, AS Pro-CHOICE are ALSO against. So, your point is… WHAT?

            Ariel Castro committed suicide. Michelle Knight does NOT forgive her attacker. Sorry, but the only one generalizing is YOU. I am FOR a woman’s choice, WHATEVER that may be, gestation, abortion, adoption, surrogacy, etc…. I am AGAINST force, whether that be forced abortion or forced gestation. Kinda, y’know, like the word ‘CHOICE’ implies? Oops.

          • Ivy Mike

            “YOU want ALL people to be forced like she was? ”

            Of course they do. It’s their ultimate goal. Of course, they’ll never come right out and say so. They’ll use all sorts of pretty, focus-group tested weasel words and soundbites, and steer the conversation anywhere but that if directly asked, but the answer, ultimately, is yes.

            Think of the events in Ireland…a raped woman, strapped to a bed, force-fed, and unwillingly C-sectioned.

            Think of Beatriz.

            Think of Savita.

            Think of the 9-year-old girl, pregnant with twins.

            Women aren’t really considered equal citizens by this crew at the best of times; they consider a pregnant woman less than human.

            THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT.

          • goatini

            What they want, is to basically imprison all females from menarche to menopause in order to monitor all activities.

          • Ivy Mike

            The whole thing is simply one facet of their overall struggle, which is to return Western society to a pre-Enlightenment, pre-modern model most similar to the Middle Ages…economically and socially.

            They’ll settle for women being returned to the status of chattel property…like the good ‘ol days.

          • Ramanusia

            Their wet-dream of pre-Enlightenment society, since the middle ages were not this repressive or this abusive to women.

          • Arekushieru

            Actually, I disagree. Middle ages were plenty repressive and abusive to women. So, here’s my two cents (and JUST my two cents). ;) ;

            Just because women may have had the support of clergy and access on the sly to herbs and medicines that would induce miscarriages and were seen working in the fields and outside the home, does not mean that all, or even the majority of, clergy supported women seeking abortions or, even, that the clergy who did provide assistance weren’t doing so to prevent the male hierarchy from being punished or ensure that women were punished (because it was unlikely that treatment for botched abortion proceedings was available in those times and no one would have any idea what the difference between what an early-term abortion and a miscarriage looked like let ALONE menstruation, since we often talk about how similar the products of abortion and menstruation look alike, nor would they have any idea between what a late-term abortion – since they probably didn’t have safe, surgical procedures for abortion, at the time – and a stillbirth looked like, either), it doesn’t mean that a lot of the effects of herbs and medicines used by women to obtain an abortion were understood by the general civilian population (because, at that time, most people thought it was the man’s seed that simply took ‘root’ and grew inside the woman’s womb, after all, that’s how ‘advanced’ their medical knowledge was, y’see) nor does it mean that women didn’t also have to work inside the home as well as outside, because, y’see, my grandmother worked out on the farm with my grandfather, but, still, the majority of the household duties were still left up to her, and that is likely how it was during the middle ages, too.

          • Ramanusia

            I never suggested they weren’t repressive or abusive to women, I’m just saying that these guys dream of a time that was far more abusive, as abusive as they wish to truly be.

            Who said anything about clergy? Women had access to herbs and medicines quite openly, and they didn’t go to the clergy or the “doctor” (what passed for one back then) for their ailments or “women’s problems”, like unwanted pregnancies. They went straight to the midwife or the herb woman.

            My point is more that in the middle ages, a person was a person sometime after birth, they didn’t bother with the whole “egg persons and sperm persons” nonsense that these idiots have drummed up.

            Um, women’s work inside the home was a pretty onerous affair, and I don’t recall mentioning anything about their workload. In the middle ages, it’s unlikely that a woman had the time to go work in the field, just the basics of housekeeping, from preparing the food to doing the washing took all day. I think they helped during harvest time when all hands were needed to get the crops in, but the rest of the time they were doing the backbreaking manual work that kept the family fed, warm, clothed and somewhat clean.

            The middle ages didn’t value a woman’s life as worthless if she was pregnant, nor did they insist that a zygote had more rights than a woman did, even if she didn’t have many rights at all.

            The Clergy were an evil they dealt with but not the people they went to with their concerns usually, from what I’ve read. But whatever it was truly like, it’s not what these Antis like to pretend it was. Those pilgrims were also less uptight than these judgmental idiots, as was their church at the time.

          • Arekushieru

            And did I say anywhere that you did mention these things? No, I don’t believe I did. It was simply a collection of thoughts I’ve heard from various people over the years. Thanks.

            Also, the reason they didn’t believe fetuses had more rights than women is answered, at least in part, by what I did say in response to the thought collection I posted above. Other than an erroneous assumption on my part, that’s really all I was saying…?

          • Ramanusia

            Ah, interesting. Wasn’t really sure where all that was coming from.

            Oh and people did know what a fetus looked like, they did look at the products of conception and stillbirths, the westerners thought it was a homunculus, a tiny person who just grew larger. Easterners were actually a whole lot more advanced, some form of the whole “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” found its way into ancient writings, somewhere in the vedas and I”m sure other ancient traditions.

            The “dark ages” was a period when Europeans turned their back on the body of knowledge that was already accumulated. The term itself is pretty old too, they weren’t as clueless as these science denying antis are.

            The reason they didn’t believe fetuses had rights is that you weren’t even sure that a born baby would make it, thus it was harmful to the family and the community at large to acknowledge each infant as a “person” with rights and recognition in the community. Every ancient culture has those landmarks that it celebrates, when infant mortality was high and women died rather often in childbirth it was the woman who had value not something they could not see, which had no guarantee of surviving.

          • Donna L

            Seriously! You are all delusional. You are ones throwing outlandish accusations about forcing people to do things – I never support that? But then truth is lost in the ignorant.
            Mike. As a military family, I appreciate your service. Would hope you’d see through this BS.
            You accuse me of heinous things but don’t give a rats butt to find out what I think. It doesn’t matter anyway to any of you. Everyone just throws crap out there and all jump on the band wagon. Same language from everyone. Pure venom, no real concern. Just a place for you all to spew hatred.

          • Ivy Mike

            I’ve read your comments, on this and other threads. Did you forget those you made on the thread about Peru?

            Or the FACT that what I wrote above is exactly where your hoped-for laws and policies lead?

            You do exactly as I expect when the results of your plans are pointed out…bluster, complain, deny, and change the subject.

            You never, however, get around to a refutation.

            Why don’t YOU go back and read your OWN responses. They are all I need.

          • fiona64

            You’ve made it abundantly clear what you “think,* Donna.

            You’re a rape apologist, a forced-birther, and a racist. How do I know the last thing? Because I read your Disqus history. I can see how little you care about *actual* children, because you wrote about how those “Mexican kids” in detention centers should be “sent back where they came from.”

            Never mind that those children are not Mexican. Never mind that they escaped lives of sex trafficking and worse. Those little brown kids don’t matter to you. Why? Because they’re brown … and because they’re already *born.* Your concern is all about the (white) fetus.

          • Arekushieru

            Look, sugarplum, in order for there to be a CHOICE, there has to be two or more options. If you want only ONE option, like gestating to term, to be available, you do NOT support choice. And the OPPOSITE of choice, is FORCE. Oops.

            It’s funny that you think someone who is a member of an industry that generally CHALLENGES your Pro-‘life’ stance would see through what you call BS? It just goes to show even MORE that you are NOT about ‘life’.

          • Ramanusia

            So simple an explanation and so devastating to the “argument” of the anti, and as she said (sort of) the truth is wasted on the ignorant.

          • goatini

            Aggressively seeking to forcibly strip female US citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice IS HEINOUS.

          • Ramanusia

            Why do these antis keep showing how fond they are of rape and their admiration for the tactics of rapists? Such a sick group.

          • fiona64

            Because they’re misogynistic sociopaths.

          • Arekushieru

            And I see the point of my comment went right over your head, didn’t it? I’m surprised, I shouldn’t be, but I am. I was talking about the CHOICE to defend yourself from your rapist, just as I was talking about the CHOICE to defend yourself from an unwanted pregnancy. Those girls didn’t get EITHER chance, but I’m sure you just loved that. After all, if you can justify making legal a bodily autonomy violation putting your life and health at risk, and for a much longer duration, than most any other situation known to humankind and especially one done by a NON-person, because of a (currently) non-existent right to life that you claim that entity has, then you should justify making legal any bodily autonomy violation that is less risky to one’s health and life, occurs as a result of a lesser duration and one that is committed by INDISPUTABLE persons.

          • a7xrocker1981

            The fetus is not a perpetrator. They did not consent to their gestation. your action by choice(unless you were raped) put them there. How can you compare that to someone who has the intent to hurt you?

          • Arekushieru

            Uh, yes, it is. It directs the processes of conception that leads to implantation into the uterus (pregnancy). Plus, if the fetus’ action did not put them there by choice, how can people like you and PLM claim that a fetus is aware? The woman was even less likely to consent to their gestation. She does not direct the processes of conception like the fetus does. Women do not get pregnant whenever they want and remain un-pregnant when they don’t want.

            Enforcing a biological process on a woman for having consensual sex simply because it constitutes the dependency on a uterus to sustain the fetus’ life is misogyny, since no other human population is required to take responsibility for their genetic makeup, ESPECIALLY men..

            Giving exceptions for rape proves this is not about life. So, I really hope you don’t.

            Rape can happen regardless of intent and state of mind. Meaning that, if someone who is sleepwalking rapes or attacks (actually happened) you, it is STILL considered either rape or assault and you STILL have the right to use deadly force to defend yourself.

          • fiona64

            They did not consent to their gestation. your action by choice(unless you were raped) put them there.

            Consent to sexual intercourse is NOT consent to pregnancy/gestation.

            By your logic, getting into an automobile means you consented to get into an accident and therefore cannot do anything about your injuries.

          • JamieHaman

            Stealing this comparison. Love it.

          • goatini

            Fetuses are neither innocent nor guilty, and lack any “intent” whatsoever. It is the woman’s decision whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. It is no one else’s decision. Female US citizens have the civil, human and Constitutional rights to determine their own destinies, and to start or grow their families, when THEY wish to do so.

          • Ramanusia

            If the fetus is existing in a woman’s body against her will, it is a perpetrator. If she did not consent to its gestation and it’s burrowed into her blood vessels and tapped in, then it’s very much not by her choice.

            How can you compare the actions of something that entered you against your will, set up camp feeding off your blood, while dumping its waste into your system, and putting your body under great stress, and which doesn’t care if it hurts you or not because it has no ability to possess an intent at all?

            How can you compare a rapist who enters your body against your will and a parasite that feeds off your body with little regard to its effect on you to something that does literally those same actions? Pretty easily, all it requires is some working knowledge of words and science.

          • Ivy Mike

            You know, when you invoke someone for the sake of bolstering your argument, you just might want to first learn both her name and the correct location in which the crimes occurred, as well as whether or not your propaganda sources actually got it right.

            Otherwise, it looks, once again, as if the woman involved was of little actual interest to you, other than as a prop for your bullshit.

          • Ramanusia

            Oh, one woman suffering from the trauma of her rape is “in the process” of forgiving her attacker, why that must mean that all women and children who get pregnant from rape should be forced by law to carry out the rape induced pregnancies, and forgive their attackers right? And of course allow them access to their spawn because the rapist was only following the plan of the anti-Choicers who have no problem with it right?

            You’re taking one case in which a victim is still recovering after being forced by her rapist to carry a child to term and generalizing that this sounds like a lovely thing to do to all women who are raped or pregnant against their will. You and that attacker are on the same page, violating women and forcing them to gestate against their will.

            You can’t generalize to the 99.99999% of rape victims who think your rape-happy worldview is sick and perverted. Going to the extreme you went to here just exposed your pro-rape views.

          • Donna L

            does not deserve a response.

          • Ramanusia

            And yet you typed one out, without denying your pro-rapist stance.

            I guess that means you agree, that your politics and your policies are very much about supporting the plan of that rapist and that you think the forcing women to gestate against their will as he did is what all women must be subjected to.

          • goatini

            Rapists’ rights supporters, such as yourself, deserve to be ridiculed, marginalized, and shunned in public company.

          • fiona64

            does not deserve a response.

            And yet, you gave one. Heh.

          • fiona64

            Oh, god, it’s another home-schooled idiot …

          • Ramanusia

            Well, a home-schooled idiot home schooled by ignoramuses who knew nothing worthy of teaching. Some home-schooled people are not morons because their teachers actually knew stuff. (Or so I’ve heard :-) )

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am PRO life so naturally I am PRO CHOICE. And so are the children I chose to carry to term.

          • Ivy Mike

            ‘Here how about I start on a better note and not be so much of a stranger? Hi, I am a7xrocker1981. I am female, almost 20, and have a myriad of tattoos, piercings, and am due to have a baby in 2 weeks. I love heavy metal music, I am a speed shredder and singer, and am passionate about pro life causes, gay rights and gun rights.’

            …and i think you’re another lying anti-choice fanatic who thinks that claiming all the above will make those here more receptive to your other bullshit, because you think all pro-choicers fit the stereotype you describe. It’s not as if such conduct is unknown to your ilk, who seem to think lying like dogs in the street somehow makes them more likely to succeed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hi, I am a7xrocker1981. I am female, almost 20, and have a myriad of tattoos, piercings, and am due to have a baby in 2 weeks. I love heavy metal music, I am a speed shredder and singer

            I’m Jennifer. I’m female and 41. I like ska, punk, new wave, jazz, classical and opera. I like 70s-80s tv, britcoms and anything with Bruce Boxleitner in it. I have no tattoos, the only thing I’ve pierced is my ears–once– and the last thing I shredded was some lettuce for a salad last night. If you’re trying to impress with your edginess, I’m not.

          • fiona64

            I’m beginning to feel like we’re all at 12-step or something, LOL.

            Hi, everyone. I’m Fiona.

            (Hi, Fiona!)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hi Fiona :)

          • Ivy Mike

            Hi, I’m Ivy Mike! I’m 46, married 15 years to a wonderful woman who has CHOSEN to give me three great kids. I’m a retired member of the US military (20 years, 6 deployments) and a current private military contractor.

            In other words, I’m the LAST guy you’d expect to see posting at a site like RHRC. However, since I am married to a woman and the father of one, as well as the son and nephew of women, I have taken a keen interest in issues that affect them.

            Can I play in this sandbox?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, you are very welcome :)

          • fiona64

            Hi, Ivy Mike! And yes, most welcome!

          • Ella Warnock

            Thanks for your service, Mike.

          • prolifemama

            Again, GREAT arguments! You truly DO rock.

            I especially like your apt definition of those claiming to be pro-choice here. They are pro “wanted” life and anti “unwanted” LIFE!

            Every one of us has been, and will be ‘unwanted’ by someone at some point in our lives. Does their annoyance due to our existence mean our lives are forfeit, just to please them?
            No. NEVER.
            People who are bigger and stronger shouldn’t get their way with those who are smaller and weaker, especially when it costs the little ones among us their very lives.
            BTW, do you have any youtubes under your posting name, of you singing? I sing too. Would LOVE to hear you!
            Thank you for your strong voice for LIFE. Have a happy baby! I’ll be praying for you!

          • goatini

            You’re unwanted here at this very moment.

          • goatini

            //Bigger, stronger people shouldn’t get their way with those who are smaller and weaker//

            Fetuses aren’t persons, aren’t citizens, and have no rights. Stop the lying hate speech against citizens’ rights.

          • Arekushieru

            Using deadly force to defend myself from someone who is raping me, gives them only one choice. And not using deadly force gives them at least three. Oops. If I am unwanted by a stranger on the street, is that gonna bother me more than being unwanted by my own family, or even anywhere NEAR the SAME? Uh, NO? If a child is unwanted by their own parents, you have just doomed them to a life of suffering, rather than ending it before they could feel pain OR pleasure. SO effing compassionate. NOT. And can you not use obvious paraphrased versions of what the estate of Dr. Seuss has explicitly asked you NOT to use. And the only reason abortion is legal is because women DESERVE the same rights as everyone else. OOPS.

          • fiona64

            Again, GREAT arguments!

            Only if one is an imbecile …

          • lady_black

            I may be unwanted. I am not invading the body of another. I’m not entitled to anything from your body, even if I need it “for my very life.” Our relative sizes and strengths are irrelevant. Your body is your exclusive property and I cannot take or demand any of it for my benefit. The fetal version of me had no such right either. Your existential angst is unseemly. Most adults are well aware that before they were born they didn’t exist, and after they die, they will no longer exist, and the world will go right on turning just the same. The best I can hope for is that someone will remember me as someone who touched their life in a positive way.

          • goatini

            Safe, legal pregnancy termination IS the solution to unwanted pregnancy.

            NO woman is under any obligation to gestate a trophy for wicked, barren, selfish vultures to buy from the billion-dollar global human trafficking adoption crime syndicate.

            And NO woman should EVER be forced to gestate ANY pregnancy against her will – ALL women should have the supreme dignity of deciding for themselves when, where, why, how and with whom to start or grow their families. NOT when some God-bothering vicious, hateful radical theocratic misogynists want to force them into gestational slavery.

          • goatini

            //Hi, I am a7xrocker1981. I am female, almost 20, and have a myriad of tattoos, piercings, and am due to have a baby in 2 weeks. I love heavy metal music, I am a speed shredder and singer, and am passionate about pro life causes, gay rights and gun rights.//

            To quote Dorothy Parker, “And I am Marie of Roumania”.

          • JamieHaman

            As a pro-choice person, I want you to understand that pro-choice means you have ALL the options you listed.
            It means you are trusted to make the best decision for your conscience, your family, your life. It means the best decision for YOU. Not the best decision for your church, your mom, or the man on the corner.
            If of course you are able to talk to an unborn and ask what it wants, I would like to know why you haven’t made a shit ton of money off of that.

            Btw, there are some 400,000 children in foster care who need loving homes desperately. Are you in line for some of them?

          • fiona64

            I am female, almost 20

            You know, m’dear, you remind me of my favorite quote by playwright Oscar Wilde:

            I am no longer young enough to know everything.

          • Ramanusia

            Yeah, not so much a better note. Your tumor also has a life, and by killing it and not asking it if that’s what it wants, you’re also shocking anti-choice. Cancer treatment (and antibiotic treatment and parasite treatment and virus treatment) are also SHOCKINGLY anti-choice, all you get is a dead thing (or millions or billions of them) which were once alive! Why, refraining from all medical treatment and making sure your immune system isn’t taking away the choices of any living things in your body can give you so much more! You can revel in the fact that you preserved life, and selflessly promoted life and didn’t deny anything a choice, even if a virus/bacteria/parasite/tumor has the same ability to make a choice as a fetus or even a baby does.

            Of course we’re pro-choice, and here’s a hint, you get to make the choice because it’s your body, and you’re the one with enough mental capacity to make a choice. We’re pro-life, pro the life of the woman, we’re also anti-rape (and anti-infection) because when something takes up residence in your body without your permission and negatively affects your health, it doesn’t get to choose to stay there and feed off of you against your will.

            We’re pro-choice and pro-life, it’s just that unlike you, we consider the lives of women to be LIFE as well. Your fellow anti-choicers don’t consider you to be a human being right now, just an incubator and they’d like to make your decisions for you, no matter what you think. If you’re okay with that then join hands with them and dementedly screech about “LIFE” all you want. The rest of us would prefer to make our own decisions with the help and advice of qualified medical professionals. Good luck with letting those ladies control your life and body after you give birth, they’re the same ones who’ve made it so easy for priests to repeatedly abuse children.

          • Laurie Bertram Roberts

            Oh Goddess bless you have to be one of those “New Wave Feminists” (fake feminists) who think if you just say you’re edgy we’ll forget your message. FAIL!!!! Adoption does not end a pregnancy! So to say “well you can just chose adoption does fix someone not wanting to be pregnant. Plus no one is obligated to carry and give up their child for someone just because someone else says so.
            BTW is your parenting plan to ask your child for it’s opinion on everything before the family decides what to do?

          • Donna L

            Well If Laurie was offended, then Laurie, I apologize to you. I don’t mean to hurt your feelings. (unlike the venom spread here toward me.) So we all agree that the term POC , product of conception, is offensive and should stop being used.
            PP has many offensive terminologies. Laurie, I wish you well and praise you again for choosing LIFE.

          • Jennifer Starr

            As stupid as POC was, Donna–and I’ve never heard any pro-choicer actually use that phrase —that was not the really offensive part of the question. Want to take another guess?

          • fiona64

            So we all agree that the term POC , product of conception, is offensive

            No, we don’t “all agree” to any such thing. Because medical terminology is not offensive.

            Do you want to know what’s offensive? Nasty, none-of-your-business questions about someone being *raped.* Like the one you asked.

            And another thing that’s offensive, at least to me? Your blatant, unadulterated *stupidity.*

          • goatini

            What’s offensive are venomous, vicious anti-American spewers of hate speech against citizens’ inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights.

          • Ramanusia

            We agree to no such thing, we all agree that you are offensive and so are you lies and thus you should stop uttering them.

            PP uses medical terminology, you make up nonsense about words you don’t understand and imbue them with your hate, YOU have many offensive terminologies, I suggest you go educate yourself.

            I condemn you for choosing ignorance and hate.

          • Laurie Bertram Roberts

            Hell yes I’m offended AND I don’t need you to praise me for choosing life. What the fuck kind of shit is that? It’s not the term product of conception that’s offensive and you damn well know it. It’s the way you chose to use it in a triggering borderline abusive way towards a rape survivor. WTF!
            I never “praise” women for choosing abortion. I support their choices whether they parent, relinquish their rights through adoption, or terminate their pregnancy I don’t “praise” any of the choices. I support them equally and tell women they are capable of knowing what they need. I let them know I’ll help them with whatever they need whichever decision they make. THAT is what choice means!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Address the issue of licentious and irresponsible behavior of our culture.

            Why?

          • Donna L

            Because of rampant licentiousness and irresponsible behavior leads to “choice” …. and then the pain of being in a position that one would not want to be in… to make choices that would otherwise be unnecessary. Yes, “choice” comes for most people from their behavior. NOT counting forced encounters. Those are extremes. I am talking generality.

          • Jennifer Starr

            rampant licentiousness and irresponsible behavior

            More detail? Because I really don’t know what you’re going on about here.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Rampant licentiousness sure sounds like fun. I wonder where I can find some of that?

          • Ivy Mike

            The usual. She’s calling women who seek abortion care sluts.

          • fiona64

            Oh, okay. And she, of course, is so “high and mighty” because she went ahead and CHOSE to remain pregnant when her attempt to “oops” her baby-daddy into marriage didn’t work.

            Heh.

          • fiona64

            Because of rampant licentiousness and irresponsible behavior leads to “choice”

            This says exactly *nothing.*

          • goatini

            Many women who have safe, legal pregnancy terminations – for any and all reasons that are NONE of your, or anyone else’s, damned business – are in faithful, monogamous marriages, already have a child or children, and will go on to have more children later, WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE THEM.

            Take your “rampant licentiousness and irresponsible behavior” lying BS hate speech and go to Hell with it.

          • fiona64

            61 percent of women who seek abortions are married, in their 30s, and already have one or more children. Yep, that’s “rampant licentiousness and irresponsible behavior,” all right>

            What a fucking joke you are.

          • a7xrocker1981

            Do not bother dealing with the pro aborts. Like I say, arguing with a pro abort is like talking into a donkey’s butt. You can say all the facts and all the wisdom you want, the only response you will get is stinky,polluting and absolutely repulsive.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you have an actual point beyond whining?

          • Arekushieru

            Pro-abortion is just as anti-choice as you. Hitler was both pro-abortion AND Pro-Forced Birth. Your ilk must really admire him to use his ideology. What YOUR ilk spews is repulsive. But, again, I forgot, your ilk likes to self-project a lot.

          • Ivy Mike

            Oh, yeah, don’t bother with us…says the person who’s on this site, preaching and lying like a tent revival on acid.

          • goatini

            Sounds exactly like something that an seditious anti-American enemy of the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice, would say. Patriotic American freedom fighters will continue to protect female US citizens’ rights.

          • lady_black

            Seems like your wisdom needs more wisdom.

          • fiona64

            The questions were taken in wrong context.

            No, they goddamned well were not.

            As moms, you should be lifted up for choosing life.

            You and your “shoulds” can go straight to hell. I’ve already told you that I will NOT gestate another pregnancy. Nor will I tell some other woman what she should do with her body.

            Address the issue of licentious and irresponsible behavior of our culture.

            You address it. No one knows WTF you are talking about.

          • Donna L

            Fiona, do you ever have anything positive to say? Telling and lifting up are not the same.
            I would never want you to “gestate” again. I wish you joy.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I have plenty of positive things to say. Unfortunately, you don’t deserve any of them.

            I’m sorry you’re too stupid to know that all viviparous vertebrates gestate. Look! You’ve learned something today.

            You need to go back to LieSiteSpews, where idiocy like yours is somehow viewed as profound.

          • Donna L

            Hahahaha…. have a blessed day.

          • fiona64

            Hahaha. I recognize fundy-speak for “f*** you” when I see it. Didn’t I mention that I knew every page in your playbook?

          • Donna L

            pfffft… you crack me up! What are you smoking??

          • fiona64

            No one but you is smoking anything; put down the crack pipe.

          • goatini

            Hate speakers can’t “bless” anything or anyone.

          • Ramanusia

            So you would support her right to choose to terminate a pregnancy, how interesting.

            I wish you less joy, your ignorance is not blissful it’s rather malignant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I suspect that she doesn’t know what the word gestate actually means.

          • fiona64

            I am pretty sure you’re right …

          • goatini

            Many women who have safe, legal pregnancy terminations – for any and all reasons that are NONE of your, or anyone else’s, damned business – are in faithful, monogamous marriages, already have a child or children, and will go on to have more children later, WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE THEM.

            Take your “licentious and irresponsible” lying BS hate speech and go to Hell with it.

          • Ramanusia

            No, your characterizing of rape is a product of your own sick and twisted little mind. Rape is not a crime that affects the cardiac system, and healing isn’t what one promotes when one insists on raping a woman again by forcing her to carry to term a pregnancy imposed upon her by her rapist and his helpers who just don’t quite get what a horrific crime rape is, since you all think “it’s just another form of conception” as your beloved pro-rape politicians keep opining.

            We all find you offensive, we find your lies offensive, we find your ignorance offensive, we find your callous lack of humanity offensive.

            Many women also choose life by choosing to terminate a pregnancy that endangers their own lives or in which there would be no life since the embryo/fetus had no chance at life.

            As woman you should be lifted up for choosing to defend the rights of other women as human beings to protect their own autonomy. Your insistence on practicing medicine without even a first grader’s understanding of basic science is what promotes death, and you’re the ones tearing souls in to pieces! Oh, how the melodrama of your politics violates the religion that’s perverted to promote it! Fetuses don’t have souls, not according to pretty much every major religion including the “holy” book you profane in the service of oppressing women and promoting death. There is indeed no joy in death, yet you anti-choicers seem to enjoy it when women die, as you prove whenever a woman dies.

            We are addressing the issue of licentiousness and irresponsible behavior, YOURS. When you choose to air your ignorant and immoral lies, we address them in hopes that you will someday choose to not be so willfully ignorant. But you seem to enjoy being wrong, lying your rear off and basically just being as ignorant as possible.

          • lady_black

            Healing does occur after rape. But all healing forms what? A scar. That’s right. You’ll never be the same, and if a particular woman wants to heal by gestating the result of a rape, more power to her. For simply practical reasons, I think it’s a bad decision, but I’ve never been in that predicament. Most women are raped by someone they know, and having a child by the rapist is just another tool he can use against her. I wouldn’t hand someone a knife to stab me with, so I sure wouldn’t hand a rapist a tool in the form of a human being, to wreak havoc in my life. YOU get to mind your own business. You have no right to lay that burden at a stranger’s feet. All your flowery talk of “healing” is a lot of bunk. It’s “healing” if she decides it’s healing. If she doesn’t, it’s a hellish, undeserved punishment.

          • goatini

            Wojtyła the evil misogynist was another one known for his flowery bullshit.

          • catseye

            So do you “keep your OWN legs closed”? Or are you one of those women that the article, “The Only Moral Abortion is MY Abortion” was written about?

          • fiona64

            You don’t know much about medicine, do you? “:Product of conception” is a *medical* term. So are zygote, embryo, and fetus.

            Why are you so anti-choicers so delightedly ignorant about medical terminology? Are you really this stupid? Perhaps you were homeschooled and thus undereducated about the reproductive biology of viviparous vertebrates? It’s hard for me to tell, but I tend to lean toward stupid given the fact-free nature of your posts.

            And stop with the tone-policing. How others choose to express themselves is just one *more* choice you don’t get to make for them

          • a7xrocker1981

            I know the medical terms dear Fiona. Pregnant women don’t use them to describe their unborn children. When was the last time a pregnant woman told you. My fetus is a girl. No she probably said my baby is a girl. Anywhere but a murder clinic, an unborn baby is a baby. You only dehumanize when you have to kill. I am a person too, unless, someone decides to kill me, in which case they will dehumanize me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So is Donna just a sock puppet for you? Or are you a sock puppet for Donna? Yes? No? Maybe so?

          • Ivy Mike

            Her, ProLiarMama, and Donna ned to get a room if she’s not.

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion is NOT murder. Murder is ILLEGAL. Abortion is not. And even WHEN/WHERE it was/is illegal it was/is not considered murder. Now, think about that for a minute. Plus. baby is a SLANG term for a neonate. I have a friend who referred to her WANTED fetus as parasitic. Her doctor laughed and agreed with her.

            Nope, the only ones dehumanizing are you. You dehumanize and strip a woman of her HUMAN rights. Btw, if calling a fetus is dehumanizing, we are STILL not the ones dehumanizing anything.

          • Arekushieru

            But, most likely, you would never come close to calling the death penalty murder although it DOES have more reason to be called murder than abortion. Oops.

          • Donna L

            Are…. yes, I would call the death penalty murder…. would you?
            Fact is that those on death row, though SOME may be innocent, are guilty of dehumanizing crimes.
            The developing human in the womb has never committed a crime but is sentenced to death for convenience.
            NOT talking about the extremes where tubal pregnancies and actual life of the mother are involved. I’m talking about the majority of cases where pregnancy occurs from choices.
            Choice is the euphemism for “death through abortion” So if you replace the word “Choice”, yes I am anti-death.
            If you are against choosing life, then your are “pro-death”

            “Some things are true whether you believe them or not”

          • fiona64

            Fact is that those on death row, though SOME may be innocent, are guilty of dehumanizing crimes.

            Actually, a statistically significant portion of those on death row are, in fact, innocent. You can educate yourself here: http://www.innocenceproject.org/

            The developing human in the womb has never committed a crime but is sentenced to death for convenience.

            Fetii are unconscious; they are, therefore, incapable of either guilt *or* innocence. And the fact that you dismiss pregnancy as a mere “inconvenience” tells me that you are an out-and-out liar about having any children of your own.

            Choice is the euphemism for “death through abortion”

            Only if you’re really, really, really stupid.

            Let me draw you a picture: the pro-choice support ALL choices. Contraception use or non-use. Gestation or termination. Adoption or rearing alone or with a partner of one’s choice. ALL OF THEM. You support *one* option, gestation. And that, m’dear, means NO CHOICE AT ALL.

            Put another way: I think Michelle Duggar is an absolute nutter, but you don’t see me out there trying to legislate away her right to breed until her uterus prolapses. Because ::wait for it:: it’s her CHOICE.

            Indeed, some things are true, whether you believe them or not.

          • Ivy Mike

            How many times must it be explained to you cement-heads that NO ONE IS AGAINST “CHOOSING LIFE”?

            Pro-choicers support ALL choices with regard to sex, pregnancy, and childbirth, so long as they are made by the person involved and with full, complete information and free of coercion.

            We call you “anti-choice” because, wait for it, you advocate the REMOVAL of choice, and the forcing of gestation and birth. Your side is the only one in this discussion that does NOT support all choices. Why is this so hard to grasp?

            Pro-choicers no more push abortion as the only choice than the Pope does, and you know this. Quit lying.

            And while you’re at it, could you tell all the other so-called “pro-lifers” to quit shooting people and blowing up medical clinics? Pretty much demolishes any credibility you might have had left after your serial lying and bullshitting.

          • Arekushieru

            Actually, if the death penalty were illegal in the States I WOULD call it murder. However, it is YOUR ilk that usually supports the death penalty, not the other way around. Proving you to be the hypocrites you are. I am AGAINST the death penalty for the EXACT same reason I am Pro-CHOICE. As many fellow Pro-Choicers are, because we are not hypocrites. That reason BEING that by the time the death penalty, the infringement on one’s right to bodily autonomy has ALREADY been stopped. Oops.

            Nope. The fetus isn’t being punished. Punishment = tools to affect behaviour modification. So, in order for it to BE punishment, abortion would have to result in a LIVE fetus. It would also have to result in the fetus’ return to the uterus. AND it would have to be able to change its behaviour so that it no longer affected the woman’s body once consent was revoked. Or, at the very LEAST, any concurrent/future zygote, embryo or fetus would have to do the same. Since there is no expectation that any of the aforementioned will occur, abortion is DEFINITELY not a penalty, therefore not a punishment. Whether the fetus has committed a crime or not is irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal. Just as whether or not someone is in a fugue state, when they sexually assault another person, is irrelevant to whether or not rape should be illegal and whether or not a rape occurred. Thanks. FINALLY, ending a pregnancy is NEVER a matter of convenience. For the EFFING last time, pregnancy IS the third leading cause of death for women, WORLDWIDE. It is ALWAYS risky and dangerous because there is NOT a 0% chance that a woman will die from it. Ending a pregnancy, therefore, is life-saving for EVERY woman. Since ‘saving a life’ is always the reason that YOU people claim to be against abortion, you must be against abortion for ‘convenience’, if you still claim that saving a woman’s life is a matter of ‘convenience’. You people are SICK. Also, the social reasons that many black women choose to abort are due, in part, to policies that YOUR ilk put in place. Meaning that reasons of financial instability that many black women give for choosing to abort, and, maybe as a result, leading to higher rates of abortion (and your ilks cries of ‘black genocide’), are due to cuts in social welfare funding, such as TANF, WIC and SNAP enacted by YOUR political counterparts in Government and opposition to contraceptive access and comprehensive sex ed.

            If you’re NOT talking about the extremes like tubal pregnancies and where the life of the WOMAN is involved, then you are a hypocrite. Suddenly, a fetus committed a crime (by YOUR logic) or loses its right to life when they attached to a woman’s Fallopian tubes or put the women’s health and life at risk (which is, as I’ve said, earlier, anyways, ALL of them)?

            Nope. Choice is the ACTUAL term for pregnancy (NOT a fetus. Seriously, when you were pregnant the FIRST time, didn’t it give you an INKLING of an idea that maybe you should get yourself INFORMED about pregnancy?) termination OR continuation. The SAME thing my mother did, as I have already repeated for you, SEVERAL times. She CHOSE to continue a pregnancy AND she CHOSE to terminate one, after all. Abortion is the termination of an unwanted pregnancy (again not the fetus), the FACT that a fetus dies when an abortion is performed is either due to the METHODOLOGY of abortion involved OR the fetus’ incompatibility with life upon separation from the uterus. Making pregnancy a biological mandate, enforces a law that is applicable to NO OTHER group of humans. And makes you simply… a MISOGYNIST.

            No, you are PRO-Death, because you are for the death of women. If you want to make gestation mandatory, which prevents a woman from receiving life-saving healthcare, AS I described earlier, you are NOT Pro-‘Life’, you are Pro-DEATH.

            And by your OWN logic, you are Pro-Death and we are Pro-Life. We are not against choosing to continue a pregnancy just as we are NOT against choosing to terminate a pregnancy. Since we are not against that, we are OBVIOUSLY Pro-Life, again, by YOUR logic.

            “Some things aren’t true whether you believe them or not.”

          • goatini

            The only pregnancy and uterus over which you have the power of choice is YOUR OWN. STOP attempting to forcibly strip citizens of their rights. This is America and we do not strip citizens of their rights.

          • lady_black

            Pregnancy occurs from choices. Yes. And so do automobile accidents. You are not consenting to an accident by putting the key in the ignition and driving to the store, even though you know it’s a distinct possibility. And we don’t force you to go through life with a broken leg because you chose to go skiing. We don’t let you drown because you chose to go boating. NOBODY is against “choosing life” by which you mean choosing gestation because “life” isn’t guaranteed. We just know that it’s not always going to happen. Sex is not consent to pregnancy, even when a woman initially wants to be pregnant. Things happen, I’ve seen it. Until every pregnancy is wanted, and every pregnancy proceeds without complication, abortion will always be a thing.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I know the medical terms dear Fiona.

            I don’t think you do.

          • fiona64

            Pregnant women don’t use them to describe their unborn children.

            Educated pregnant women do.

            Anywhere but a murder clinic, an unborn baby is a baby.

            Ask your OB if s/he’ll let you look at your medical records, dimwit. I guarantee you that the word “baby” appears nowhere. You’ll see zygote, embryo and fetus. You won’t even see the word “baby” in those records after delivery; you will see the word “infant.”

            I’m sorry that you are so stupid, but it really is not my fault.

          • goatini

            What ACTUALLY dehumanizes women are seditious anti-American enemies who seek to strip female US citizens of their inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice. Citizens don’t try to forcibly strip other citizens of their rights in America. And pregnant US citizens’ rights are NOT erased.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not nor have you ever had an affectionate intimate relationship with a grown woman. This is obvious.
            And yet you, like most other insane forced birther zealots, insist you should be in charge of the sexual/family lives of women you will never know.

          • lady_black

            Whether pregnant women use medical terms or not is neither here nor there. Using medical terms is not “de-humanizing.” A fetus is still a fetus even if the pregnant woman calls the fetus her little “pookie-wookie.”

          • prolifemama

            No, Donna L, she can’t. Most posters here aren’t able to do so.
            Nice to hear your prolife witness, and thank you for telling your story.
            God bless you and your family!
            If you’d like to see some really good articles, try Secular Prolife Perspectives. They defend their prolife stance from a non-religious viewpoint. Very cool. And their prolife arguments are irrefutable.

          • Donna L

            I will do that. This site just is incapable of deductive reasoning. Particular posters can only resort to convoluted speak and hate mongering.

            Rocker girl gave a very lengthy dissertation on the facts of development. But, as predicted, a certain few couldn’t handle it and were rude to her.
            Peace and love be with you

          • prolifemama

            Donna, having been in the prolife movement before Roe-v-Wade, and having heard aborted women’s stories, I suspect that most RHRDjournalists and posters here are suffering severe PASS (Post Abortion Stress Syndrome), and so must defend their choice as firmly as they can,

          • goatini

            BS. Many of the pro-American, patriotic reproductive justice freedom fighters posting here have never obtained a pregnancy termination, either of the safe and legal type, or of the unsafe illegal type. And each and every woman who has obtained a pregnancy termination has NOTHING to feel “guilty” for. ALL patriotic American reproductive justice freedom fighters categorically REJECT your LIES of false blame, false shame and false guilt. ALL patriotic American citizens support the protection of the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice – and ALL those who seek to forcibly strip their fellow citizens of their inalienable rights are seditious anti-American haters of our freedoms, our liberties, and the very foundation on which our nation was built. Move to Saudi Arabia, where the radical misogynistic theocracy should be exactly to your taste. We proud, patriotic freedom fighters will NEVER cease our vigilance to protect our fellow citizens’ rights.

          • prolifemama

            Just wondering… when unborn children are granted personhood, citizenship and full legal protection, will you still be such an enthusiastic “patriot”? Will you begin supporting their newly-won rights?
            Somehow, I don’t think we’ll see you standing at attention anymore with your hand over your heart when the flag passes by in the 4th of July parades…
            I have a sneaking suspicion that your “patriotism” will only be fervent as long as this country’s laws continue to promote the killing of our smallest family members.

          • goatini

            //when unborn children are granted personhood, citizenship and full legal protection//

            They won’t. This is America, and enemies of citizens’ freedoms and rights will NOT be tolerated.

          • Arekushieru

            If they promote the ‘killing’ of ‘our smallest family members (again, you are stealing patented material, oops) then they also PROMOTE the sustaining of same at the same time. YOU, however, promote the killing of women. And their forced servitude.

            Whether or not a fetus is a person is irrelevant. However, making a fetus a person will do more to destroy YOUR cause. If a fetus can be declared a person, then there is no barrier to prevent them from being imbued with all the qualities and experiences inherent therein. Specifically, intent. Intent to implant into an unwilling woman’s uterus. Making them guilty. Therefore capable of committing a crime.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m fairly sure that Goatini is more patriotic than you.

          • goatini

            Damn straight. Being the child of a survivor, and being a first-generation American, instill deep patriotism and love of America’s freedoms, liberties, and civil rights.

          • Ivy Mike

            Goat, it was a privilege for me to put in my 20 to defend those rights.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And we certainly thank you for your service.

          • Ivy Mike

            I appreciate that. I’m just glad I got to retire with all the parts I joined with. Too many did not.

          • goatini

            Thank you.

          • fiona64

            Just wondering… when unborn children are granted personhood,
            citizenship and full legal protection, will you still be such an
            enthusiastic “patriot”?

            Just wondering how much dope you are smoking, to think that is ever going to happen.

            Pro-tip: “The Handmaid’s Tale” is *fiction.*

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            They could not pass a fetal personhood bill in Mississippi. Mississippi. It was voted down by a margin of 42 to 58.
            ProDeathMumu is nuts.

          • Ivy Mike

            Just wondering…

            If you ever got your way, what would you say to a girl or woman when, after being raped, she is strapped to a bed, forcibly fed/hydrated, and kept in that wretched state until she births her rapists’ spawn?

            What would you whisper to her, to ease the unimaginable humiliation and terror for her? What soft words do you think would make such a horrendous (but inevitable, in your dream scenario) violation of her dignity and self palatable to her?

            Also, just wondering again…

            What if she were your own daughter? Which biblical verses would silence her screams, her pleas, in YOUR ears? In YOUR nightmares?

          • fiona64

            What soft words do you think would make such a horrendous (but
            inevitable, in your dream scenario) violation of her dignity and self
            palatable to her?

            I’ll bet I know, because I’ve seen an anti-choicer say it to a rape survivor: “The minute you hold that precious baby in your arms, you’ll forget all about being raped.”

            I actually wanted to vomit on the spot at the way the crime committed against the woman was minimized.

          • Ivy Mike

            Right? Again, they talk about the pwecious babeee. not one word about the woman. What she must endure, how she has to suffer. Like I said, after conception she doesn’t exist to them.

          • goatini

            To them, women are livestock – animals to be exploited.

          • lady_black

            If fetuses were granted “personhood” they STILL wouldn’t have any rights that I don’t have, including the right to the body of another. That’s what you don’t seem to “get.” Like myself, an honest to goodness PERSON has no right to walk up to you and demand that you breathe for me and process my wastes with your kidneys, no fetus would be granted that right either.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And I suspect that you’re talking directly out of your ass, and have been for some time now.

          • Arekushieru

            No such thing as PAS. But, I’m sure if you Google Andrea Yates, someone who birthed five children because she didn’t know she had other options, you WILL see just how damaging the PPD you essentially forced on her, REALLY is.

            Praying publicly is frowned upon by Jesus. Also, there are no post-abortive cismen. They have never been pregnant.

          • Donna L

            I was just wondering where you were. They can’t even acknowledge the dreadful deeds done to that young girl (now a friend) I know. In their minds, nothing ever goes wrong!

          • fiona64

            They can’t even acknowledge the dreadful deeds done to that young girl

            You’ve been asked to cough up a citation for that bullshit story of yours, and have failed to do so.

            In their minds, nothing ever goes wrong!

            What an apt description of your delusional view of pregnancy.

          • Donna L

            What freakin citation are you talking about…. you can’t accept the truth when you hear it.
            You are truly daft.
            I don’t care what you think, say or do… you are so out of touch with reality and truth. You live in a delusional world …the world according the “Princess Fiona” the Ogre!!!!!
            Here’s a tad of “histrionics” for you witchypoo..
            You call others hypocrites who speak truth, but fail to see the daggum plank in your own eyes you are so blind.
            Hope you like the heat…. Eternity where you are going is hot.
            Maybe….just maybe you will have a change of heart and amend for your wicked ways.
            You will get no more replies from me….. You are just incurable sick and twisted “former fetus” and since fetuses are not human, that explains your demonic comments. OOOOOoooohhh!!!!! Take your overused scientific verbage and use it on someone who cares.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, not hysterical enough. Want to try again? More exclamation points might help.

          • Donna L

            Hahahaha!!!!!!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not impressed–and you know, you still didn’t provide that citation….

          • goatini

            //Hope you like the heat…. Eternity where you are going is hot.//

            I love it when the fetus fetish nuts have nothing left, except to make death threats on behalf of their big bully imaginary friend.

          • fiona64

            You don’t know what a citation *is,* do you?

            Take your overused scientific verbage and use it on someone who cares.

            There’s the refuge of someone who is too stupid to a) know what the words mean or b) look them up.

            I’m laughing at you, sweetie. Really and truly.

          • Arekushieru

            The only ones who speak truth, here, are NOT you. You see we KNOW that illegal, forced abortions are wrong and harmful. Savita, Beatriz, etc will prove that to you. However, YOU refuse to acknowledge how things can go wrong during pregnancy. Plank in WHOSE eye, now?

            Hell is a realm of Hela’s. I know this because I am Christian. So much for being against pain and suffering, though. I guess it’s only a concern when it happens to the FETUS. Now, tell me how you and PLM care about both the born and the fetus. You don’t.

            We aren’t the ones who said that calling a fetus a fetus ‘dehumanizes’ it. YOU are.

          • goatini

            Citation or it’s BS.

          • lady_black

            There is no such thing as “Post Abortion Stress Syndrome.” There are also no “post abortive men.” I have never had an abortion. I defend my choice and the choices of all women. What do you think gives you the right to manage the lives of others? You aren’t paying their bills.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            I am certain you feel good about praying for everyone while you let real babies die.

          • goatini

            What part of MY inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice doesn’t meet your ridiculous “deductive reasoning” criteria?

          • goatini

            YOU came here specifically with your venomous, vicious, anti-American “convoluted speak and hate mongering” against citizens’ rights. YOU came here specifically to insult US and to insult citizens’ rights. Stop whining with your projection and your BS lies.

          • Arekushieru

            Quit with the effing tone-trolling. What, only YOUR ilk is allowed to spew venom by calling women murderers, by DEHUMANIZING them, by comparing them to LIVESTOCK? Rock-head wouldn’t know a FACT if she saw one. Perhaps you’re referring to a certain few by the name of PLM, DL and a7rx19 who are unable to handle the facts presented to them and are thus rude to the regular posters on here? If that’s the case, no need to be ashamed, I heard it’s a common failing amongst your group. Convoluted speak? If that’s the case, only because someone is responding to your OWN ‘convoluted speak’. Deductive reasoning? Since you can’t extrapolate to logical conclusions one must assume that you are unable to deduct your way out of a trash can.

          • fiona64

            Rocker girl gave a very lengthy dissertation on the facts of development.

            Well, no wonder you’re so confused, if you think anything that child posted was factual. Poor you.

          • goatini

            Seditious, anti-American attacks on the inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights of US citizens are *worse* than ANY “swearing”, and IS a colossal insult to citizens and their rights!

          • goatini

            //And their prolife arguments are irrefutable.//

            There are NO “irrefutable” gestational slavery arguments.

          • Arekushieru

            Wrong, their arguments, as usual, come from a position of misogyny, and when they realize that they fall back on the old tried and true Catholic Church regurgitations that have no basis in reality let ALONE the bible.

            Also, please learn to read. It’s a wonder with how obvious your lack of reading skills are, that you even TRY to push that onto us. She SAID that that was not her COMPLAINT. It was the question about her RAPE. JFC.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Humorous, yes. Irrefutable? Not really.

          • fiona64

            And their prolife arguments are irrefutable.

            Oh, yes. Myintx has a particularly “irrefutable” one about feral toddlers. ::snort::

            You anti-choicers are a joke.

          • goatini

            What kind of sick, seditious, un-American evil mind thinks that advocating to strip female US citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice is “better” than, ahem, “swearing” and “insults”?

            GOOD citizens, who care about the rights of their fellow citizens, stand up, speak out, and don’t mince words to defend their rights from attack by un-American radical theocratic misogynists.

          • Ivy Mike

            Seriously? You presume to run other adults’ lives for them and you can’t handle a bit of salty language without getting Church Lady vapors?!?

          • Ramanusia

            It’s actually not, why can you not type anything that is not comically false? A product of conception is the fetal tissue one removes from a uterus, it’s not applied to a baby by anyone with a brain in their head, so I understand your need to do so.

            Man, can’t you type something without lying your rear off or exposing your ignorance?

      • fiona64

        So the choice comes in deciding to have intercourse or not.

        Nope. Consent is not ongoing.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Yes you are all “intelligent” with your vocab, but not very open.

        Can someone tell me what exactly this is supposed to mean??

      • Arekushieru

        I would not thank anyone for FORCING my mother to give birth to me or if my mother had me out of duty and responsibility like my anti-choice aunt, rather than because she actually WANTED me. That’s the point you people just CAN’T seem to grasp, for some VERY odd reason.

      • Ivy Mike

        ‘And FYI, abortion is legal on demand all 9 months regardless of reason. Re: Carhart, Gosnell, Haskell, Brigham, Tiller. All murdered women wo so much as a slap on wrist. ‘

        This entire statement is false, on multiple levels. Abortion is NOT legal all nine months, Gosnell received a life sentence (considerably more than a “slap on the wrist), Tiller never murdered anyone (and was himself murdered, by one of your ilk), And as for the other two, you’ll have to provide sources, however, given the freedom from fact you’ve shown thus far, i’m inclined to doubt anything you say.

      • goatini

        YOU came here specifically to insult US and to insult citizens’ rights. Stop whining with your projection and your BS lies.

      • Arekushieru

        Gosnell is just as anti-choice as you. That you would even lump him in with any of the other doctors is just sickening. Thanks.

      • goatini

        Gosnell and Brigham are criminal that did not provide safe, legal pregnancy terminations. And just as RHRC was quite complete in their coverage of Gosnell’s crimes, they have also been quite complete in their coverage of Brigham’s crimes:

        http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/07/11/for-decades-authorities-let-rogue-abortion-provider-harm-women-despite-pleas-from-legitimate-doctors/

        And Drs Carhart, Haskell, and Tiller are far better human beings than you could ever hope to be.

      • JamieHaman

        So, at what point to women cease to be living, breathing, heartbeating, thinking, feeling human beings and become state regulated incubators?

        • goatini

          Menarche.

          • fiona64

            That just about covers it with the anti-choice, doesn’t it?

            “We’re all about your rights, ladies … until you’re actually born.”

      • Laurie Bertram Roberts

        Don’t congratulate me and insult me at the same time. You clearly don’t know what reproductive justice is so please don’t comment on it further.
        Women have their iron levels tested prior to their procedures so your comment about RU was for what?
        Y’all are “anti-choice” as in you only advocate the choices YOU approve. I don’t only advocate abortion so how am I “anti-life”. You don’t even make sense.

  • JamieHaman

    I for one am glad this woman resigned her position at Planned Parenthood. What I found to be ridiculous was the claim that Melissa Flournoy did not represent Planned Parenthood. It appears an absurd claim due to the fact that Cecile Richards had to respond to a very similar letter by Monica Simpson of Sister Song.
    Looks like another example of failed leadership flowing downhill.
    Maybe Planned Parenthood needs to clean house.

    • Cactus

      Yeah…her weird disruptive bullshit might not’ve been PP’s words…but did they make a poor hiring decision? Yeah, and that might be something worth looking into in the future. Maybe don’t pick personalities who feel the need to make EVERYTHING all about them.

  • Cactus

    Good job! You’ve memorized every single talking point used by protesters outside of abortion clinics! Congratulations! Gold star! 4 for you, Glen Coco!

  • Ramanusia

    I judged you based on the words you wrote. My statement is quite literally all about promoting choice, so you’re either a liar, or you’re just not very good at reading comprehension, or whoever you “heard” it from, didn’t do a good job reading it aloud to you.

    What does being a mother or a homosexual have to do with anything? Are you just looking for other ways in which to attack me with that roiling hate you’re brimming with?

    Have you had to give up your life for someone else? Did anyone ever force you to risk your life or your health for something against your will? If not, do let us know your blood type and we’ll find someone who’ll die if they don’t get some of your tissues and you can put your stance to the test in a meaningful manner. Let’s see how YOU do when actually faced with a self-less act, I’m asking you outright, let’s see what you’re made of.

    Actually, my statement literally says nothing about me, it says quite the opposite actually. YOUR self-serving ideological rant however is literally all about YOU, about how you can feel superior, how you can attack people to make you feel better about your being a horrible, hate filled human being. Repeat your own chants, I’m well aware that other women’s decisions about their own bodies are up to them not to me, and my mother wasn’t forced by idiots like you to sacrifice her health or her life for me, she CHOSE to. The choice you and your fellow “ME” obsessed hypocrites seek to deny women, which is what makes you anti-choice, you wish to deny choice, see how that works? Also, my mother is educated medical professional and she’d tell you today that I was indeed a parasite while I was an embryo and a fetus in her body, since that’s how definitions work and unlike you, she knows what the word parasite means and how it applies in pregnancy. Unlike you, she’s not an illiterate, uneducated person trying to infuse hate into words she doesn’t understand.

    The fact is that PP does inform women of all of their options, it’s their medical, legal and ethical responsibility to do so and there exists no fact or evidence to prove otherwise. Just idiots who can’t deal with facts and who operate on lies, lies and more lies screeching “FACT” before uttering yet another lie.

    It’s also a blatant and complete lie that women die at the hands of PP, and 800 women die per day everyday in childbirth, the U.S. also ranks very high on maternal mortality. FACT: You’re lying and the numbers from the CDC and the WHO prove you to be a lying liar who lies a lot.

    The liars you mentioned have literally been proved to be lying and they weren’t “owners” if that’s what they told you when you were paying them lots and lots of money after they lost their jobs due to incompetence, then you should get your money back. Read up on what the actual facts are on the silly lies these people feed you because they know you’ll pay them well to lie to them.

    Yes, the women going to PP to access medical care don’t have access to any other health professional to get their well-woman and well-child checks ups or prescribe their meds for them, they do go there because they can’t afford medical insurance (and you would like to keep them that desperate wouldn’t you?). They go to doctors who are trained and required medically, legally and ethically to fully inform their patients about their health. Again, you can’t provide a single instance where that has not occurred. It’s these women that you seek to lie to by diverting them to fake clinics whose only reason for being is to lie to these women when they are scared and desperate. It’s these women you seek to deny care to safe, legal care, and to send to the Kermit Gosnells of the world, like in the pre-roe days, people who are in it for the money and who have less experience than he did, to proper butchers like those you dream about in the pre-roe days where desperate women died in alleys like you wish they would now.

    You have no idea what those women are going to PP for, much less what their notions of birth control are, or why they’re seeking abortion for the small population that does. You’re far too mired in your cult of “ME,ME ME, I’m so godly, that whatever lie I tell about those sluts is “FACT” to bother ever finding out. HOW DARE they put their selfish CONVENIENCE of breathing and living over their fetus who is so diseased that it will never survive birth. If you were a human being who valued life, then you would not scoff so much bout their putting their convenience of living over a pregnancy that would not produce a live child, but hey, you’re just a roiling cauldron of hate and lies, so I guess humanity doesn’t matter much to you, these are just women after all, and not as important as the holy political tool you deify.

    I have no idea what your nasty violent rant is about. But if I’m threatening someone’s life, apparently YOU and your fellow wingnuts think it’s okay to shoot and kill me, after all violating your home is grounds for death, but some foreign body violating my body and threatening my health is not justification for self defense.

    Oh, by the way the abortion porn you reference there? It’s video of the extraction of a still born fetus, and not an abortion at all. So you’re being terribly convenient with presenting outright lies and propaganda to justify your violent intentions. I find you terribly inconvenient, and dangerous, since you and people like you are domestic terrorists who shoot people, use IEDs on clinics, who threaten the families of clinic workers, focusing your attacks on their children, and forcing through policies that ensure that women die in the manner of Savita Halappanavar, but notice I don’t voice any violence towards you.

    Your last question is a truly moronic one, and apparently it’s this kind of pro-death, pro-violence mindset (insomuch as what you’ve got can be called a mind), that leads to you pushing through laws that makes it legal to kill doctors and clinic workers and women to show how fake your commitment to life is huh?

    Also, it’s legal until the point of viability, and the choice is up to the woman and her circumstances. What you advocate is murder, pure and simple because it’s convenient for you to use violence, hate and death because your know your stance on this subject is nothing more than a very large LIE.

    • Donna L

      you took something twisted it around and made it personal why?? No clue what you are even ranting about

      • Ramanusia

        You’re the one who took your own twisted rantings and ravings and made them personal. You have no clue in general, you just like ranting and raving and lying your rear off.

        Why do you make your hatefulness so personal? I”m guessing it’s because it’s because you’re so full of hate towards pretty much everyone, homosexuals, mothers, women, human beings who have the decency you lack ….

      • Ramanusia

        Try reading for comprehension, I basically called out your lies and your hatefulness. Find a competent adult who is literate and gain a clue, I addressed each of your lies.

      • Jennifer Starr

        From what I read above, you were the one who made it personal.

      • goatini

        Excuse me, but talk about projection! YOU came here and twisted your sick lies to make it completely “personal” and “all about YOU”. You’re a sick narcissist who came here to spew evil hate speech rants against citizens’ rights. Get lost.

  • fiona64

    Why do you use the term ” anti-” and not ” pro”? You say ” pro-choice” but not ” pro-life”

    Because words have meanings. You are not “pro-life,” because you don’t give two shits about born, sapient, sentient women. You are just “anti-choice” because you want to force women to gestate. Women you’ve never met. Women whose circumstances you don’t know.

    Let me tell you something: my wanted pregnancy nearly killed me. I will NOT go through that again. I will NOT risk my life for an unwanted pregnancy and leave my husband and (now adult) son without me. And they are in complete agreement; I am more important to them than a goddamned zygote. Should my tubal ligation fail (they can, and do), there will be an abortion scheduled the second the stick turns blue.

    You advocate enslaving women … and that is disgusting.

    Period.

    • Asemodeus

      “You are just “anti-choice” because you want to force women to gestate.
      Women you’ve never met. Women whose circumstances you don’t know.”

      They are not really anti-choice. They are all for choice just as long as you only choose their position. A more correct definition for these people are forced birthers. Since we see from their actions that they don’t actually care about the woman or the baby, just that a birth happens no matter what.

      Birth Fetishists is another good one.

  • fiona64

    Are you a mother?? Are you homosexual?

    What the fuck does either of those have to do with anything?

    “parasite to your mother” as PP would call a fetus)

    Citation needed.

    Does that mean that if YOU are being inconvenient, someone has the right to take your life by ripping you limb from limb or by stabbing your head and sucking out your brains?

    You anti-choicers have a very vivid fantasy life.

    • Jennifer Starr

      I didn’t understand that one either.

  • fiona64

    I guess you missed the entire first paragraph: Melissa Flournoy has resigned from her position as director of Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast-Louisiana, following criticism from reproductive justice activists that she was an “example of the schism in work around reproductive rights.”

  • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

    Donna L, you are really —–Never—– pro life. The accomplishments of the anti choice movement are outlined here: http://naturalabortionlaws.com/?p=79
    The fact is that before abortion was legal the number of births declined by nearly 1 million per year and after abortion became legal the number of births increased by nearly a million per year. So nothing the pro life movement has done has led to an increase in life.
    In fact you have a choice, DonnaL, you can choose to save innocent born babies or you can choose to let those babies die and save a fetus instead. What is your choice, all anti choice people generally choose to let innocent babies die. Is that your choice as well?

    • Arekushieru

      Thanks for the info, Russell. I never thought to ask about the number of births before and after abortion became legal, when antis usually bring up the subject of how abortion rates ‘apparently’ jumped after abortion became legal,

  • goatini

    Carole Everett never worked for Planned Parenthood, and has been exposed as a liar. Abby Johnson has been exposed as a liar. Nathanson was senile and exploited by the gestational slavers.

  • goatini

    Safe, legal pregnancy termination IS the solution to unwanted pregnancy.

  • fiona64

    So much tap-dancing, so little substance.

    The majority of fetal anomalies cannot even be *detected* prior to 20 weeks’ gestation … which, if you had half a brain, you would know.

    You want to see a list of medical necessities? Well, here are just a few studies and scholarly articles that you will fail to read and dismiss as “pro-abort propaganda” because you’re too stupid to understand them:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10426234
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19177335
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8284289

    In any event, unless it’s YOUR pregnancy, you don’t get to decide how much medical and/or financial risk will be assumed.

    she can get an abortion throughout all nine months, and while giving birth.

    Cough up a citation, or admit that you’re a goddamned liar.

    • prolifemama

      Read them all, Fiona. Same old stuff I’ve seen and heard countless times before.

      Fetal abnormality does not indicate medical necessity. It’s simply a death sentence for babies judged “imperfect.” The vast majority of fetal defects do not pose maternal health threats, so abortion doesn’t save women’s lives, and in fact puts all women who undergo it at specific risks.

      If you advocate search-and-kill missions for our disabled sisters and brothers, how about clearing out nursing homes and handicapped living facilities? Your victims won’t threaten their mothers via risky intrauterine demise, and the high cost of their care can be put toward better use on human beings who really deserve funding assistance.

      • goatini

        //Fetal abnormality does not indicate medical necessity.//

        And your medical degree is from WHERE, again?

        • fiona64

          From her arse, just like everything else she writes.

        • prolifemama

          Don’t need one to observe that a child with Down’s Syndrome or anencephaly or spina bifida does not endanger her/his mother’s life, and so aborting her/him would not preserve her/his mother’s life.
          In simple terms, such abortions are search-and-destroy missions that discriminate against the disabled. They don’t prevent disabilities, they just kill the people who have them.
          Not at ALL the same thing.

          • goatini

            Anencephaly is a neural tube defect considered incompatible with life. It occurs when the head end of the neural tube fails to close around the third and fourth weeks of pregnancy. This results in the absence of major portions of the brain, usually the frontal lobe and cerebrum.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You once said you were going to tell us the ‘positive aspects’ of a fetus with anencephaly. Still want to give it a go?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No she didn’t? God help us.

          • Ivy Mike

            See below. She has descended to new levels of sewage.

          • fiona64

            She did indeed. She is also the same sick bitch who said that my mother and dad shouldn’t have decided to seek an illegal abortion in the 1960s. I was about 6 months old at the time. My mom was pregnant and she contracted rubella. Her obstetrician told her that there was a 99 percent chance that, because of where she was in gestation, the resulting infant would be blind, deaf, and profoundly mentally retarded. He also told her that it was her call, but that if she needed someone to “help her,” he knew someone who would do it safely. And that’s what she did.

            This evil sow, ProLieMama, when I told the story, called my parents murderers and opined in so many words that my parents should have gone ahead on the off-chance that a miracle would happen. She said that my parents should have basically taken a chance that was most likely to bankrupt a young couple starting out, and would be forcing my now elderly and medically frail parents to have to deal with a blind, deaf, mentally retarded infantile adult..

            Between *that* and her assertion that organ donation is immoral, I am done being polite to that *thing* that claims to be pro-life.

          • prolifemama

            Fiona, please provide the transcript of that comment, proving I called your parents “murderers.”
            I have never called anyone a murderer on this website, nor anywhere else.

          • fiona64

            Liar. You said, among other hateful things when I first told about my mom’s illegal abortion, that “possible disability was not an excuse for murder.” That is calling my parents murderers, whether you like it or not.

            You need to seriously STFU. GFY … and no, that doesn’t mean “GoodForYou.”

          • prolifemama

            I think it’s best for you all to read those stories as told by the children’s parents and loved ones.

            http://www.anencephalie-info.org/e/index.php

          • Ivy Mike

            Okay, i’m convinced…you are insane, so obsessed with BIRTHIN BABEEZ that you have lost all commection with reality.

          • prolifemama

            And you seem to have lost all connection with correct spelling…
            Ivy Mike, did you actually click on the anencephaly website, and read even one family’s story?

          • Ivy Mike

            Yes, actually, I did.

            Fuck you, you pig. How could you use those people’s grief for your propaganda?

          • Ivy Mike

            I thought you people were nutcases before, people so convinced they were some sort of “heroes” that they had abandoned all reason.

            You have convinced me utterly of your absolute evil. There is truly no depth to which you won’t sink. The fact that you have lost all ability to even see how sick you are is merely icing on a shit-cake.

            Rest assured, pig, I will never, ever favor a so-called “pro-life” politician with a vote.

            How do you even love with yourself? Don’t answer, I know…because you think you’re doin the LAWWWDDS’ Wuuurkkk! Hallylewwyah!

          • Ivy Mike

            Oh, my godz…you are an absolute fucking PIG!

            To use those couples’ grief and healing page to promote your vile, tyrannical dogmas and religious fanaticism is beneath all contempt.

            Did you miss the word “CHOICE” on the homepage?

            Or the plea for privacy and understanding?

            Once again, you PIG, you show that real human beings mean absolutely NOTHING to you, save as props.

            I cannot believe how disgusting you are. Also how fucking narcissistic you are, you probably think you just did something good.

            I call on the mods to ban you…this was beyond the Pale.

          • prolifemama

            You all asked for the positive side of giving birth to a child with anencephaly. Who better to tell that story than these children’s mothers and fathers? Had my husband and I conceived such a child, I would tell our story. And our decision would be the only one we could in conscience make, to let our child live however short her or his lifewould be, and to fill our daughter or son’s live with all the love we could.

            Yes, the word ‘choice’ does appear in the introductory paragraph. What is your point in mentioning it? Do you not support
            choice regardless of the circumstance? These parents chose to give their babies life, however brief their lives would be after their births. Why does that bother you so?

            These stories are heartbreaking because of the overwhelming love and tenderness these parents have for their sweet children, whose lives are so brief, but who know only the tenderest love surrounding
            them, before they are given back to God. What is warping your attitude toward these stories being made public, and generously so, by these courageous and selfless parents?

            Why does answering posters’ demands for “the up-side” of anencephaly in this way, anger you? You accuse me of being evil…?? Yes, that word does apply here, but only to your unfathomable rage at witnessing the overwhelming generosity of these mothers’ and fathers’ hearts for their precious, ‘imperfect’ children.

            It would appear you have some seriously deep soul-searching to do.

            Mike – named after the archangel Michael whose duty it is to battle the prince of darkness – remember that satan stands only as close to you
            as you allow.

          • Ivy Mike

            Do not post to me any more. You are a repulsive, delusional, and morally bankrupt human being.

          • goatini

            I’ve used the terms “repulsive” and “morally bankrupt” with regard to proDEATHmofo for quite some time now. Glad that you agree.

          • Ivy Mike

            There is a word for people as narcissistic, absolutist, and fanatical as she…psychopathic.

            Such insanity is useless to reason with, or even try to debate with. They live on another planet entirely, where WHAT THEY BELIEVE ™ is more important than any other consideration.

            They have no compassion, no natural empathy for others. Look at the way she shamelessly uses other peoples’ tragedies to promote herself, even if they do not support her beliefs in the slightest. Look at how she handwaves away absolutely ANY reason a woman might possibly give for wanting/ needing an abortion. Oh, and see how she refuses to deal with any objections or refutations or examples of the actual harm caused in the real world by her beliefs, such as the tragedies in Ireland. To her, these events and the people involved simply do not exist.

            Anyhoo, you guys can have this one for the weekend. Like I said, I’m only home for a month and I want to spend some quality time with friends and family without being disgusted at rotten psychos like her.

            I’ll get more than enough of her mental brethren when I go back downrange.

          • fiona64

            Mike … I wish there was a way to PM this info. Write to Erin at rhrealitycheck dot org. Link some of this *thing’s* posts (you can do that by clicking on the time stamp). This problem will be solved.

          • prolifemama

            Really.
            I’m not the one ignoring the biological truth of our unborn sisters’ and brothers’ humanity, nor do I continually advocate killing them in their mothers’ wombs.

          • Jennifer Starr

            But you’ll deny a child with CF a heart-lung transplant if they need it.

          • fiona64

            And call a young couple murderers for terminating a pregnancy gone horribly wrong. She’s disgusting, and as far from “pro-life” as it gets.

          • Arekushieru

            No, you are ignoring the HUMANITY of women. That’s WORSE. And fetuses are not sisters or daughters. We are not ‘advocating ‘killing”. YOU are advocating killing of women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Had my husband and I conceived such a child, I would tell our story.

            Of that I have no doubt. Any free publicity for your cause, right? You’d probably stand outside a clinic and hand photos around.

          • goatini

            Satan lives in your depraved exploitation of strangers’ personal tragedies.

          • prolifemama

            How is this possibly exploitation? Seriously.

          • fiona64

            YOU are exploiting the stories of complete strangers to try to make “points” for your “cause.” Because you’re *sick.*

          • Arekushieru

            Suffering is generosity? At least, it would be suffering in YOUR eyes because a fetus can feel ‘pain’ apparently, so how can a fetus with no brain possibly NOT feel pain by your OWN logic? Oh, I forgot, you’re into inspiration porn and don’t really care for whether or not they may suffer as long as you can’t use it against women who choose to abort.

            Michael also means he who resembles God. I think he has been playing that role perfectly against YOUR roles of the Prince of Darkness.

            Also, people aren’t finding your comments sickening because it’s an example of the choice to give birth to an anencephalic fetus. It’s the FACT that you then use that PRIVATE choice to push an agenda that has nothing to DO with choice.

          • goatini

            (extra points for knowing what “beyond the Pale” actually means!)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            ProDeathMumu sure is a caution, ain’t she. Puke.

          • fiona64

            From your own link: The advice given on this site is offered from non medically qualified individuals. This site is the result of research
            and experience made by affected parents. The information provided on this site is designed to support, not replace,
            the relationship that exists between a patient/site visitor and his/her existing physician.

            Do you know what that means, you hatemongering sow? It means that it’s STILL a decision to be made between the pregnant woman and her doctor.

            Do you know why I call you a misery pimp? It’s because you dine out on this stuff, exploiting other people’s misery to try to make your point.

            Casse-toi, cochon.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you know why I call you a misery pimp? It’s because you dine out on this stuff, exploiting other people’s misery to try to make your point.

            Oh yes. In fact, I believe she actually gets a high from reading about this stuff.

          • Ivy Mike

            See below. She’s actually using those families’ grief and pain for her propaganda.

          • fiona64

            Don’t need one to observe that a child with Down’s Syndrome or
            anencephaly or spina bifida does not endanger her/his mother’s life, and
            so aborting her/him would not preserve her/his mother’s life.

            Once again, you do NOT get to decide how much medical and/or financial risk anyone but you must take.

          • Arekushieru

            You DO realize that giving fetuses with genetic abnormalities more right than other fetuses or those born is simply another form of ableism, right? More commonly referred to as “inspiration porn’?

      • fiona64

        What part of “you don’t get to decide how much medical and financial risk others take” is hard for you to understand?

        Fetal abnormality does not indicate medical necessity.

        You don’t know that.

        OTOH, you are the sociopath who claims that there are “positive benefits” for a woman to gestate an anencephalic fetus, so we already know how cruel you are.

        If you advocate search-and-kill missions for our disabled sisters and
        brothers, how about clearing out nursing homes and handicapped living
        facilities?

        How about if you stop with the fucking asinine straw men?

      • Ivy Mike

        We get it. You would force, by law, all pregnancies to be fully gestated, regardless of cause, danger, anomalies, medical advice, mental health, wishes of the woman, etc.

        You simply want births to occur, and will let nothing stand in your way. You are a forced-birther.

        There is absolutely no reason a woman could give for wanting or needing an abortion that you wouldn’t question and handwave away.

      • goatini

        //Same old stuff I’ve seen and heard countless times before//

        That may be one of the most depraved, amoral, heartless and cruel things I’ve ever read.

        • prolifemama

          No, for that you need to re-read your own rantings.

          • goatini

            Just more projection and denial from you.

      • Arekushieru

        “and in fact puts all women who undergo it at specific risks.”

        Citations, please. And, if you’re talking about D&X rather than IDX, that’s all on YOU.

      • fiona64

        in fact puts all women who undergo it at specific risks.

        Again, you’re a goddamned liar. Abortion is no more risky than miscarriage, and it is significantly less risky than gestation. And you can stop with your pretenses about “abortion causes breast cancer” and the rest of the stupid shit you and your ilk claim without basis in reality.

        https://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/myths/abortion_cancer.html

        Quote: In fact, in March of 2003 the National Cancer Institute (NCI) declared emphatically that “newer studies consistently showed no association between induced and spontaneous abortions and breast cancer risk.” NCI convened a symposium of over 100 of the world’s leading experts to review existing studies on the relationship between pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage and breast cancer risk and concluded that having an abortion does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer.

    • prolifemama

      Here you go – a link to the Guttmacher Institute, Planned Barrenhood’s former research arm, showing late-term abortion stats current to August 1, 2014:

      http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf
      Late-term (after 20 weeks) abortions are still legally done in the U.S., approximately 15,000 times per year (1.5% of 1.5 million abortions annually), according to a study authored by Diana Greene Foster and Katrina Kimport, and published in the Guttmacher Institute’s new Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, story in the Washington Times Dec. 10, 2013.

      (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/10/study-ids-reasons-for-late-term-abortions/?page=all)

      • fiona64

        You are moving the goalposts. You claimed that *abortion on demand* was available through all 9 months of pregnancy. This is an outright lie … and your source does not say what you claim it does.

        Your source, in fact, proves OUR point: late-term abortions do NOT happen absent medical necessity.

        • prolifemama

          A child’s disabilities are not “medical necessity.”

          • fiona64

            Again, you do not know what is and is not a medical necessity. That’s between a woman and her doctor, not some meddling bitch with a rosary and a claim to be a “sidewalk counselor.”

          • Ivy Mike

            So sayeth you. Are you a doctor? A judge? ANYONE whose opinion on medical matters we should listen to?

            Well, no…you are simply a forced-birth religious fanatic. No opinion you give is untainted by superstition and “magic” thinking, or bereft of lies and misrepresentations.

            Finally, of course, your real goals and their results are heinous abuses of human rights for your own self-aggrandizement and narcissism.

            You have no opinions worth the oxygen you’ll use to state them.

          • goatini
          • prolifemama

            I have no blame and only sympathy for Heather and David, but because their were denied the gift of holding their precious little daughter, and instead encouraged to kill her, ending her brief life even more quickly than her disability would.
            I do not doubt that Heather’s anguish would have been assuaged had she giving birth rather than aborted. Pain would still accompany her loss, but she would be able to remember holding her, however briefly, rather than allowing her to be killed. She would know that her daughter’s last moments on this earth were filled with love instead of the determination to violently end her life. Heather and David wouldn’t now and for the rest of their lives have to convince themselves over and over that killing their daughter was the best thing to do. It wasn’t for her, and it wasn’t for themselves.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think that’s Heather and David’s business–not yours.

          • goatini

            With every post you prove yourself to be even more evil, amoral, and vicious.

          • prolifemama

            Find that evil, amorality and viciousness. If you truly look, it’ll be inside you, not me.

          • fiona64

            You’re the bitch who called my parents murderers, who claims that organ donation is immoral, and who wants to force women to gestate doomed pregnancies to satisfy your personal feelings. It doesn’t get any more evil, vicious or amoral than that. Period.

          • goatini

            Denial and projection are all you ever do here.

          • fiona64


            I do not doubt that Heather’s anguish would have been assuaged had she giving birth rather than aborted.

            And I have no doubt that you are the most hateful, self-righteous c*** on the planet.

          • Arekushieru

            So a baby must suffer so that the woman’s anguish would have been assuaged? Wow, you’re really into inspiration porn, aren’t you?

            Besides that, that’s rich coming from someone who is part of a group that agitated to end IDX ensuring that a woman would be able to remember holding the baby. So, that, along with pain, isn’t really what concerns you, now IS it?

  • fiona64

    Provide a citation, or admit that you’re a liar.

  • goatini

    WRONG. Safe, legal third trimester pregnancy termination is NOT available, absent medical necessity. FACT.

  • goatini

    WRONG. Safe, legal third trimester pregnancy termination is NOT available, absent medical necessity. FACT.

  • Ivy Mike

    Because her mental health means nothing.

    Just like her physical health (be honest…you really don’t give a shit)
    Just like her other family.
    Just like her plans for her life.
    Just like her pain.
    Just like her bodily integrity.

    It all means nothing to you types. Once a ZEF exists, she is naught but a breeding sow. Thanks for admitting it, even if you didn’t know you were!

  • fiona64

    ‘Fess up … you were typing that with one hand, weren’t you?

  • lady_black

    Because we’re pro-choice for ALL choices. You are STILL the anti-choice one. Sorry.

  • lady_black

    Would I give up my life for another (or any number of others)? Yes, probably. But you have no right to demand that I do so. And for a fetus? No way in hell, sister. And never mention Scabby Johnson in this forum again.

  • lady_black

    And by the way, I have adult children, and they aren’t welcome to live inside my body either.

  • lady_black

    Why must someone’s physical life be in jeopardy to receive medical treatment? I’m quite sure you don’t impose this upon yourself.

    • prolifemama

      Late-term abortions are rarely done to preserve maternal life, as the procedure takes too long – laminaria insertion over a period of three days is in no way considered an “emergency procedure.” Most often their goal is to kill a baby with a profound disability, or a disability that will considerably shorten the child’s life.
      And yes, if I were pregnant with such a child, I would give birth to him or her, and care for him or her for as long as he or she lived, with all comfort and love given freely, until he or she died naturally. That’s what civilized, grown-up, thinking, feeling human beings do.

      • fiona64

        Late-term abortions are rarely done to preserve maternal
        life, as the procedure takes too long – laminaria insertion over a
        period of three days is in no way considered an “emergency procedure.”

        Are you one of Dionne Warwick’s psychic friends, that you know exactly what is going on in a given pregnancy?

        BTW, you need to update your (lack of) knowledge WRT laminaria. Here you go: http://www.womenscenter.com/laminaria.html

        And yes, if I were pregnant with such a child, I would give birth to him
        or her, and care for him or her for as long as he or she lived, with
        all comfort and love given freely, until he or she died naturally.

        And that would be YOUR choice. Other women need not make the same decision.

      • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

        The late term abortion of born human babies is what upsets me and does not bother pro lifers. Prolifemama is fine making the intentional choice to let innocent born babies, children and adults die, but is upset when a non human zygote is aborted. I find that to be ironic.

        I have asked you before to change your priorities and to have a heart and understanding for real life babies. Will you do that for me in the near future? Life is an important thing, women you want to die are important to me. Women you want to deny human rights are important to me. A woman’s autonomy is important to me. Why are those not important to you. Please explain in detail.

        Why is the life of a zygote more important than the life of a baby? Why is the life of a fetus more important than the life of a born baby?

      • lady_black

        It doesn’t NEED to be “an emergency procedure” nor done to preserve maternal life. Frankly I don’t care what *you* would do in the case of discovering that the fetus you were carrying was profoundly flawed. Nobody else is bound by your choices. You have no right to lay that burden at someone else’s feet.

        • fiona64

          Thank you. This idiotic bint appears to think that a woman has to be seconds away from death before a doomed pregnancy can be terminated. She is, seriously, one of the most hateful people I’ve ever run across in my life, IRL or not.

      • Arekushieru

        So, civilized, grown-up, thinking, feeling human beings allow others to suffer (anencephalic infants) so that their sad fee fees can be healed?

        A late-term abortion is meant to end an untenable WANTED pregnancy. You are talking about the METHODOLOGY.

        • goatini

          I think that a lot of these awful people who bully a fetus, with tragic conditions incompatible with life, into being born to suffer unspeakable pain, are sadistic and are very similar to those with Munchausen syndrome by proxy. They are selfish and cruel and are sickos who crave attention for themselves.

  • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

    Is there any pro lifer here that can defend the murders of the pro life movement? If so, I would love to discuss your murders in a calm and respectful manner. Please, lets talk.

    • fiona64

      Maybe little miss RockerThang will come back to tell you all about how what Scott Roeder did was justified. She went on for paragraphs about it. Ugh. And *boy,* did she get pissed when she was called out for it over on MotherJones.

      • catseye

        Yeah, I saw that. Sheeeeeeesh.

  • lady_black

    I have been pregnant three times and all three flipped quite a bit, and no, it didn’t hurt.

  • Arekushieru

    But you do not care about the trauma and agony a fetus AND women must endure during vaginal or c-sectional birth? Again, you have been proven to be a liar.

  • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

    I really don’the understand why my posso are deleted.

  • Donna L

    So what did Flourney actually say?
    Other than She was advocating violence and showed no respect for “Katrina” What else did she say??
    That’s nothing new… Look at Tx. Nothing but disgusting violent raging ” RJA’s” there. Tossing fem cups. So low.
    This new term is just another euphemism. Couldn’t win on “pro-choice”. Everyone is pro-choice. What do they choose- finish the statement.
    — ok. Go ahead and twist this around without answering the question —

    • fiona64

      No one knows what you’re getting at with this word-salad …

    • Jennifer Starr

      Could you try this again in English?

    • Arekushieru

      Nope, Pro-Choice involves terminating or keeping a pregnancy. Pro-‘Life’ involves FORCING gestation.

    • Donna L

      So this woman Flourney quits because she portrays Planned Parenthood feminists as angry biatches ? There has to be more to this story than that.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Biatches?

        • fiona64

          She’s trying to look like she’s better than us by not using the actual word. Instead, it just makes her look even more low-rent.