Pennsylvania Law Requires Doctors to Read Scripts to Pregnant Patients With Prenatal Down Syndrome Diagnoses (Updated)


UPDATE, July 28, 3:20 p.m.: On Monday, Pennsylvania Rep. Dan Frankel (D-Allegheny) and state Sen. Mike Stack (D-Philadelphia) introduced the Patient Trust Act (HB 2303).

The act will amend the Medical Practice Act of 1985 to provide for the definitions of “evidence-based” and “medically accurate.”

Frankel’s office issued a release stating the legislation is in response to laws that have passed in several states, including Pennsylvania, that force providers to practice medicine in a way that is not in line with basic medical standards.

“Patients trust that their doctor is telling them the truth, the whole truth, and that their health is the doctor’s primary concern. We should protect that trust,” Frankel said. “Patients shouldn’t worry that they are on the receiving end of a political agenda when they go to the doctor.”

A new law in Pennsylvania mandates that doctors read a script to pregnant patients after delivering the diagnosis of prenatal Down syndrome.

The Down Syndrome Prenatal and Postnatal Education Act specifies that the information doctors must read to patients will be made available by the state department of health. The law is referred to as “Chloe’s Law,” in reference to an 11-year-old Pennsylvania girl with Down syndrome whose father helped advocate for the policy.

According to the text of the legislation, the materials will include “up-to-date, evidence-based information about Down syndrome,” including “physical, developmental, educational and psychosocial outcomes,” life expectancy, and “any other information the department deems necessary.”

The bill was signed into law July 18, and will take effect 60 days after that date.

RH Reality Check asked the Pennsylvania Department of Health for the script materials, but a department spokesperson said the materials don’t yet exist. “The bill was signed on July 18 so their research into the matter has just begun,” the spokesperson told RH Reality Check.

RH Reality Check also asked which organizations have provided information that will be used to develop the script, but that remains unclear. An early version of the bill lists the Jerome Lejeune Foundation, Parent to Parent of Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania Early Intervention, though those organizations were either removed or crossed out in the final version of the legislation.

By signing a law mandating that doctors read a script that doesn’t yet exist, there is no way to assess if the materials are biased, or comply with scientific consensus—which is not always the case when it comes to government-mandated physician scripts, especially when the targeted patients are pregnant women.

Though the word “abortion” doesn’t appear in the bill’s language, Sen. Randy Vulakovich (R-Allegheny and Butler), who sponsored companion legislation in the state senate, told RH Reality Check that “the idea behind the bill is to give this information so they can make an educated view … before they decide to abort the child.”

The legislation that passed is the house version, sponsored by Rep. Jim Marshall (R-Beaver). In his co-sponsorship memo seeking support for the bill, Marshall wrote that the law would “simply” provide “complete information” so that women in such circumstances are “better informed.”

Marshall describes himself as a pro-life, pro-Second Amendment lawmaker.”

The percentage of people who choose to have an abortion after receiving a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome is unclear. Advocates for legislation like Chloe’s Law often refer to studies that say 90 percent of women abort in the wake of a Down syndrome diagnosis. But medical experts at the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists have concluded that those studies were generally too small to extrapolate from; the group issued a statement that “no current, comprehensive estimate of the number of pregnancy terminations following prenatal diagnosis exists.”

The Pennsylvania Medical Society, a professional association of doctors in the state, opposes the legislation. Their concerns aren’t just the content of the script; they don’t believe the government should be mandating that physicians read specific materials to patients at all.

“We genuinely believe that this legislation is well-intended, and we very much appreciate the motivation of the sponsor,” Scot Chadwick, legislative counsel for the group, told RH Reality Check. “The problem that we have is that this is just one of a number of bills that mandate an aspect of the physician-patient relationship … and however well-meaning, we think that’s a problem.”

Chadwick says Chloe’s Law is part of a troubling trend. Referring to bills that legislate doctor-patient communications, he said, “We’re seeing more than we used to.”

Though a disproportionate number of these bills apply only to doctors when they are treating pregnant women, states have gagged or coerced physician communications in recent years for other politicized public health issues. In 2012, Pennsylvania passed what’s been called the “doctor’s gag rule” in regard to chemicals involved in fracking, the process of extracting natural gas that many experts believe is dangerous. Since 2011, many states have passed laws making it illegal for physicians to ask patients about gun ownership or gun storage, against the “clear recommendation” of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Still, a disproportionate number of these types of bills implemented around the country do apply only to doctors treating pregnant women. The most well-known example is medically unnecessary forced ultrasound examinations.

Such policies have been called “misinformed consent” laws when they require doctors to relay medically inaccurate information to patients. According to the Guttmacher Institute, five states mandate that doctors relay “medically inaccurate claims of a link between induced abortion and breast cancer.” Seven states falsely assert that women experience only negative emotional responses after having an abortion.

All told, 32 states mandate counseling designed to dissuade a pregnant women from having an abortion.

Despite growing concern over such laws in the medical community and direct opposition from the Pennsylvania Medical Society, Chloe’s Law passed both chambers of Pennsylvania General Assembly almost unanimously.

Rep. Mark Painter (D-Montgomery), one of just four Pennsylvania lawmakers to vote against the bill, is both a politician and a disability rights advocate.

“I’m the father of two sons with autism, and I’ve been involved in disability rights advocacy since my older son was first diagnosed,” Rep. Painter told RH Reality Check. “And I had very serious concerns about this bill.”

“I understand the motive of the bill … is a good one, which is when there’s prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome, to make sure the parents understand that people with Down syndrome can live very long and full lives, and Down syndrome shouldn’t be regarded as immediate cause to consider abortion,” said Painter, who added that he is pro-choice. “My concern has to do with government legislating communications between doctors and patients. If we start here, where are we going to go next?”

Painter said that he remembers the exact moment when a doctor told him and his wife that his son, then three-and-a-half years old, had autism and was severely disabled. “[I remember] how shocked and distressed, and emotionally vulnerable I was at the time,” said Painter. “Legislators should not substitute their judgment for a doctor’s judgment.”

Rep. Pam DeLissio (D-Philadelphia and Montgomery), who sits on the Pennsylvania House Health Committee, voted against Chloe’s Law for similar reasons.

“How is this topic, Down syndrome, any different than perhaps somebody who has been just diagnosed with cancer?” DeLissio said to RH Reality Check. DeLissio added that she posed serious questions about the bill that went unanswered, including how physicians were supposed to know about it, and how it would be enforced.

“I don’t think we should [ever be] dictating to physicians what information they must give to a patient,” she said. “It’s very bad precedent.”

DeLissio said she finds it ironic that Republicans, who purport to support smaller government, generally support these bills. “[Chloe’s Law] is just the opposite of this ideology. It’s more government, it’s more intrusion,” she said. “Apparently it’s hands off for business intrusion, but intrusion in personal matters seems to be accepted. That’s how I look at it.”

In response to the rise of “misinformed consent” bills, Rep. Dan Frankel (D-Allegheny) recently announced his intention to introduce the Patient Trust Act as part of the Women’s Health Agenda, a legislative package aimed at addressing women’s health and economic equality.

“We’ve seen efforts across this country to mandate the conversation and medical advice that a physician or another medical professional is going to tell a woman,” Frankel said last month while announcing the bill.

Frankel’s bill is also supported by state Sen. Mike Stack (D-Philadelphia), who has said that the legislation is intended to “prevent lawmakers from playing doctor.”

“I think it’s shameful that we need a law to put medical judgment in front of political calculation,” Stack said at a June news conference. “But we have seen members of this general assembly trying to force their political or religious view on doctors at the expense of women’s health. It’s shameful and it must stop.”

Disclaimer: Tara Murtha consults with the Women’s Law Project, a public interest law firm that assisted in the development of the Patient Trust Act.

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  • StealthGaytheist

    If any of those women decide not to terminate, how much support are they going to get from the antichoice busybodies down the road? Children with developmental disabilities often need lifetime supports, and rightwingers are notorious for cutting such budgets.

    • prolifemama

      I suggest you call your local Pregnancy Decision Health Center and ask just what help they do offer, for how long, and at what cost.
      And please specify to what budget cutting you refer. I have a feeling I know just what you’ll answer…

      • StealthGaytheist

        I’m referring to cuts in the budget for support services to people with developmental disabilities. Cuts like these:

        http://www.homereporternews.com/news/general/assembly-passes-budget-with-m-in-cuts-to-the-developmentally/article_8d669884-9d54-11e2-aa06-0019bb2963f4.html

        http://archive.tennessean.com/article/20140124/NEWS0201/301240063/TN-Department-Intellectual-Developmental-Disabilities-chief-Debra-Payne-says-budget-cuts-hit-hard

        Are your CPCs going to give these mothers the $$$$ they need for special education, medical care, physical and occupational therapy, respite care, adaptive equipment, etc, etc? Are you going to be taking time off from harassing women’s clinics to petition the government to provide better funding for people with disabilities, or do you think your job is done after you’ve harassed a woman into giving birth and you’ve tossed her a congratulatory bag of disposable diapers?

        • prolifemama

          You don’t get out much, do you? Have you ever actually spoken with anyone who volunteers at a help center, or with the women they’ve assisted?

          Ask them your questions.

          While you’re at it, call up the NIH (National Institutes of Health) and ask why they grossly underfund Down Syndrome research, as revealed by the following information from DSRTF (Down Syndrome Research and Treatment Foundation):

          DS research from the NIH is significantly under-funded
          compared to other conditions on a per capita basis. In 2011, federal funding for DS research from the NIH decreased by 9%. It is now $50 per person, which on average is 90% less than what is spent on research for similar conditions. This under-funding at a time of increased potential for cognition treatments underscores the importance of private funding through organizations like DSRTF.

          • StealthGaytheist

            So you’re saying that CPCs do give women $$$$ to pay for special education, medical bills, physical and occupational therapy, respite care, and all of the other support services they need for a child who has developmental disabilities? I’m not talking about a few dollars here and there but steady, dependable support *for life*.

            Please don’t lie and claim that they do because I know otherwise.

          • goatini

            Of course they don’t, and of course that vicious shill for the theocratic, misogynistic gestational slavery movement is lying like a rug. The unsellable products always revert to the producers of the unsellable products. Except, as previously noted, the very few of the most photogenic/exploitable situations.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            I suspect this bill came about because most doctors tend to give parents of newly diagnosed infant with Down Syndrome with very negative prognoses.

            http://liveactionnews.org/doctors-respond-to-parents-of-down-syndrome-newborns-with-cruelty-and-callousness/

            But, having grown up with a hearing disability and having seen firsthand the burden of raising children who have moderate to severe forms of autism, I think anti-choice people are glossing over the very real burden of raising children with development disabilities (Down Syndrome or otherwise). The baby showers, diapers and baby clothes that crisis pregnancy centers routinely provide are just a drop in the bucket in comparison to the very real need for funding to cover ongoing (not temporary) auditory, speech physical and occupational therapy for children with severe development delays—most of which are not always covered by insurance . And, also, the very real need for post-educational employment programs when these children age out of public school. And the need to provide respite care for these parents of disabled children. (The list of real needs is endless!)

            People who call themselves “pro-life” need to consider the entire lifespan of what it means to raise disabled children, not just the first six months of life.

          • dudebro

            There is little to no funding for autistic children, even in socialist Canada. You are looking at six figure charges if you want your kid to have a fighting chance at a normal life.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            Yes, I know. :(

          • prolifemama

            I think the fight is worth every effort. Don’t you?

            Don’t you see that if we give in to the abortion mentality that some human beings don’t deserve to continue living, no changes will EVER be implemented that ensure everyone that fighting chance?

            If we are not willing to fight for each others’ basic right to live, then we will be helpless when this rule of thumb is applied to us, and finds us wanting, and unworthy of life.

          • dudebro

            Nope. Let families decide. Its their life. They will be taking all of the responsibity. Not everyone is up to the task. And you can’t force people to make a noble sacrifice – cuz then it isn’t a sacrifice, and it isn’t noble. Its just cruel.

          • prolifemama

            It isn’t their life they’re ending.

            No one has the intrinsic right to end another’s life, except possibly in self-defense. And the argument cannot be humanely made that a disabled child poses an imminent threat to his/her parents’ lives due to his/her disability.

          • goatini

            Because certain financial ruin and neglect of the other children in the family – just for starters – aren’t an “imminent threat” to parents’ lives?

            If we want to go down the road of “God never gives you more than you can handle”, I’m also thinking that God’s grace in modern medical science is telling you that what used to be inescapable tragedies no longer need to be taken up.

            The Catholic “God will provide” nostrum, and its ensuing fetishizing of pain and sorrow as something desirable to “offer up” did nothing but perpetuate suffering.

          • prolifemama

            Financial ruin, neglect – these aren’t givens in anyone’s life. Are you TRULY measuring a human being alongside a stack of currency? And we’re not even talking anencephaly here or a disease that would shorten a child’s life after birth to hours. We’re talking autism, Down’s Syndrome, maybe even ADHD. These are physical, neurological, and psychological conditions that are treatable, and those affected by them can live full lives, even acquire a measure of self-sufficiency.

            Funny, goatini, how you presume to predict the end result of something that you’ll never truly know until you’re in Heaven.

            If, of course, you decide to go there.

          • dudebro

            Well if finances aren’t an issue why don’t you mortgage your house and give 200k+ to someone who is struggling to pay the hospital and therapy bills for their disabled child.

            Do it. Otherwise, you are just talking out of your rear end.

          • prolifemama

            dudebro, to whom is your “well if finances aren’t an issue” comment addressed? The little arrow is pointing at … nothing.
            If it’s in reply to my post, please re-read it carefully, as nowhere do I state that finances aren’t an issue – in fact, I acknowledge just the opposite.

          • dudebro

            “Measuring the life of a human being alongside a stack of currency”

            Sounds pretty dismissive to me.

            So mortgage your house and give 200k to a family that really needs it. Help to improve the life of a disabled child. If you care enough. Or is your money worth more to you than a child’s life?

          • prolifemama

            Not being dismissive at all. I am challenging those of you who don’t have a problem with abortion, to frankly admit that in your estimation, money has more intrinsic value than a human being’s life, even that of an innocent, defenseless child.
            Incidentally, have you mortgaged your house yet? I put my charitable work where my mouth is, just not in the way you demand.

          • dudebro

            money has more intrinsic value than a human being’s life, even that of an innocent, defenseless child.

            Are resources infinite? if they are, then I suggest you re-mortgage your house asap, and give the money to a sick child for treatment and medication, in order to preserve their life. It should be easy peasy for you to make 200k+ so you can help the next child, yes?

            Incidentally, have you mortgaged your house yet? I put my charitable work where my mouth is, just not in the way you demand.

            200k+ to pay for surgery to immediately save the life of a sick child will do more good than handing out soup cans m’lady.

          • prolifemama

            That doesn’t answer the question of when or if you’ve mortgaged your own house…

          • dudebro

            I don’t have to because I am not the hypocrite here. You are. You expect to tell everyone else how to live their lives,and what to sacrifice, yet YOU won’t even make a sacrifice yourself to save a life. I’m not trying to force anyone to do anything. YOU are. So put your money where your mouth is.

          • prolifemama

            You don’t define what “sacrifice” is for another.
            Hypocritical is not doing yourself what you demand of another.

          • dudebro

            Oh, the irony.

            You want to force women to lose a fallopian tube, because you don’t consider it to be a sacrifice.

            You won’t mortgage your house to save a life, yet you expect others to do so, because you don’t think it’s a big sacrifice – for them, anyways. Apparently it’s too big a sacrifice for you, because you’re a selfish sadistic hypocrite.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Are you talking to yourself? All this time haven’t you been dictating to others what sacrifices THEY should make to assuage YOUR belief?

          • dudebro
          • Suba gunawardana

            Hahahahaha!

          • Ella Warnock

            Rather stepped in the smushy middle of it with this particular comment, didn’t you?

          • dudebro

            Lulz

          • Ella Warnock

            “Y . . . yo . . . you can’t decide what or how much I’LL sacrifice. How DARE you 11!11eleve!!!n1ty1!”

            Indeed.

          • fiona64

            You don’t define what “sacrifice” is for another.
            Hypocritical is not doing yourself what you demand of another.

            You broke my irony meter just now.

          • Suba gunawardana

            It’s YOU who force unwanted children into life, therefore it is YOUR responsibility to take care of them, by mortgaging your house or whatever other means.

          • prolifemama

            If there are unwanted actual children, and not just women not wanting to get (not “be”) pregnant, then they already exist, and no one’s “forcing” them “into life.” Where did you people study biology?
            And as I’ve stated, as abortion is a legal, if inhuman, option for pregnant women, no one can prevent them choosing it, except by neglecting to provide them with access to ALL their options.
            By the way, I’ve always been curious about what one of you – Suba, fiona, dudebro – would say to your dear friend who’s had an abortion, then some years later, begins to deeply regret the decision she made. Tell her to put on her big-gurl pants and shut up whining?
            How about she comes to you before making any decision, and says she doesn’t really want to off the kid, but can’t see how she’ll handle parenthood plus school and job, and where would she live, for heck’s sake, with a kid?!!?! Dorms for married studies are EXPENSIVE!!!

            WWSD? WWD-BD? WWfD?

            After all, you’re the ones who really care about women in unintended pregnancies. What would you all do if she doesn’t want to engage in your favorite pastime – kid-offing? How would you help her if she asked you for non-surgical assistance?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Are you hanging on technicalities now? Let me rephrase it: It’s YOU who force unwanted ZEFs into life, therefore it is YOUR responsibility to take care of the CHILDREN they would become, by mortgaging your house or whatever other means.

            How about that? Care to provide a specific response?

            BTW, many of the unwanted children who languish in the system, WERE once forced into life by religious nuts like you.

            “And as I’ve stated, since abortion is a legal if inhuman option for pregnant women, no one can prevent them choosing it”

            Then what are CPCs for? Aren’t they in the business of coercing women out of abortion via lies & deception? What are “sidewalk counselors” for?

            “By the way, I’ve always been curious about what one of you – Suba, fiona, dudebro – would say to your dear friend who’s had an abortion, then some years later, begins to deeply regret the decision she made. Tell her to put on her big-gurl pants and shut up whining?”

            First, as I pointed out to you many times with proof, “abortion regret”
            is a bold faced lie made up by the forced-birth movement. However IF the hypothetical situation you mentioned happens, I will first get her away from whatever religious nut who’s been brainwashing her. If the “regret” still persists, I will listen to her concerns, and find counseling with a MEDICAL professional.

            “What if she comes to you before making any decision, saying she
            doesn’t really want to off the kid, but can’t see how she’ll handle parenthood plus school and job, and where would she live, for heck’s sake, with a kid?”

            That’s easy. If she wants to have the baby that’s HER choice, Duh! (not YOUR choice like you always seem to think). I will support her choice in whatever way possible, and help her find appropriate resources from the state & grants etc, (NOT from religious nuts whose “help” comes with strings attached).

            Now how about answering at least ONE of my many questions you’ve been avoiding? Do you want abortion to be ILLEGAL? Yes or No?

          • prolifemama

            What red-blooded prolifer doesn’t?
            And if a woman’s “CHOICE” is to give birth AND parent her baby rather than abort him/her, that’s when you pro”CHOICE”rs disappear into the background.
            By the way, do you actually tell a grieving post-abortive woman to her face there’s no such thing as QUOTE abortion regret ENDQUOTE?
            Such compassion, such depth of feeling for a sister. One might wonder if you’re fiercely denying your own abortion regret, and have not one extra ounce of strength to comfort someone else.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, the state grants helped my friend to decide to keep her pregnancy, enabled her to continue her education (and yes, I did babysit her awesome girls) and helped her to obtain her bachelor’s degree and become an RN. Frankly, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So in your attempts to ban/criminalize abortion, you obviously force other people’s unwanted zefs into life, using all kinds of tactics including coercion/lies/deception. What you DON’T do is take responsibility for the innocent children created as a result, forced into substandard lives without the resources they need.

            Considering it was YOU who forced these children into life, it is YOUR responsibility to take care of them by mortgaging your house or whatever other means. Why don’t you step up to the plate?

            “And if a woman’s “CHOICE” is to give birth AND parent her baby rather than abort him/her, that’s when you pro”CHOICE”rs disappear into the background.”

            See PLM you STILL haven’t figured out the meaning of the word “choice”. A woman’s choice is her OWN. She should be FREE to make her own decision unhindered, whether it is to abort or carry. No one needs to make it for her, that’s the whole point. You seem totally unable to shake the notion that “women are so stupid someone needs to make choices for them”. NO, most women are not that stupid. If they are, they shouldn’t be breeding in the first place.

            Now part of that choice includes asking for help if she needs it. I already told you what I would do IF someone asks for help. Unlike you I am NOT in the business of coercing women to do one way or another. Again, it’s HER CHOICE.

          • fiona64

            Such compassion, such depth of feeling for a sister.

            DIAF, misery pimp.

          • ansuz

            “And if a woman’s “CHOICE” is to give birth AND parent her baby rather than abort him/her, that’s when you pro”CHOICE”rs disappear into the background.”
            I think that’s confirmation bias; I’ve noted the absence of a response to the comment I made listing a whole bunch of things I would do.

            “By the way, do you actually tell a grieving post-abortive woman to her face there’s no such thing as QUOTE abortion regret ENDQUOTE?”

            Erm, yes? Telling her that if she is suffering from mental illness, there is virtually no chance that it was caused by her abortion, and that if she isn’t suffering from a mental illness what she is experiencing is grief and regret like any other human being can experience for a multitude of reasons is important, I think.

          • ansuz

            “By the way, I’ve always been curious about what one of you – Suba, fiona, dudebro – would say to your dear friend who’s had an abortion, then some years later, begins to deeply regret the decision she made.”
            Refer hir to a therapist/counsellor, helping hir to navigate the local health care system if I’m familiar with it and if it’s necessary. Possibly find hir a support group, but only one full of nonjudgmental people.

            “What if she comes to you before making any decision, saying she doesn’t really want to off the kid, but can’t see how she’ll handle parenthood plus school and job, and where would she live, for heck’s sake, with a kid?!!?!”

            Do some research, find resources (prenatal, neonatal, childcare, food, housing, health care, etc.) and people who can help hir navigate the local systems. Find a reputable adoption agency, or, failing that, find a lawyer willing to draw up some adoption papers for a family zie knows pro bono. Mention the possibility zie could move into my parents’ basement for a while (while pregnant and/or post-giving birth, with or without an infant), and pass along their contact info. Invite hir over to eat at my parents’ house at least a couple times a week, so zie can get some free, low-effort, healthy food. (Both of those with my parents’ permission, obviously.) Refer hir to a therapist/counsellor (secular, nonjudgmental). Make sure zie gets good prenatal care until zie decides to abort or until zie gives birth. Keep an eye on hir mental health, and do what I can to boost it. Find places zie can get an abortion, and what the prices, regulations, and procedures are. If zie decides to abort and wants company and/or help getting there, get my sister to drive, and hold hir hand (if zie wants). Babysit, read to the kid free of charge if zie keeps it. Make a standing offer of free hugs, at any time, for any reason. Offer any kiddy stuff zie needs that my parents still have and don’t mind hir borrowing/keeping. Have my dad (who is a doctor) check in with her doctors every so often. Unearth the boxes of clothes in various sizes (including maternity clothes) my parents have stuffed in the garage-ish place because they keep forgetting to donate them. Go secondhand shopping with hir. Loan hir the currently-unused bicycle, helmet, and attachable grocery bag for day-to-day use if zie doesn’t need to go far and either doesn’t have a car or wants to save money on gas. Make a standing offer of a sympathetic ear, cup of tea, and shoulder to cry on, at any time, for any reason. Stuff down the terror and body horror that pregnancy inspires in me so that I can be there for hir. Get my sister and/or this friend of mine to organize a fundraiser/baby shower/stuff-drive; serve coffee, tea, and drinks at the thing. Get my brother and sister to help hir carry heavy things. Offer to clean hir living space every so often or do chores around hir living space, free of charge. Go with hir to the hospital and hold hir hand through hir prenatal appointments and giving birth, if zie wants. Make hir some baby-safe bath and body products. Help hir quit nicotine, alcohol, marijuana, caffeine, whatever, and help hir find the safest options for necessary prescription drugs. Help hir navigate the health care system. Use my connections to get hir an emergency referral for whatever sort of help zie needs. Talk (or help hir talk) to the sperm donor, if that seems like a good idea. Help hir with hir schoolwork. Print things off for hir at my parents’ house. Tell hir where to go for free internet. Find people who can help hir with specific classes, free of charge. Water hir plants, look after hir pets. Bring hir some plants, maybe fresh-cut flowers or herbs in pots. Lend hir my sun lamp. Get lawyers and police officers on hir side, if necessary.
            …off the top of my head, anyways. What would you do?

            EDIT: “Dorms for married studies are EXPENSIVE!!!” I find the assumption that zie is married to be kinda weird.

          • fiona64

            What would you all do if she doesn’t want to engage in your favorite pastime – kid-offing?

            You fucking bitch … did you really accuse the pro-choice of committing infanticide? And you call this “polite discourse”? What a fucking joke you are.

            What if she comes to you before making any decision, saying she doesn’t
            really want to off the kid, but can’t see how she’ll handle parenthood
            plus school and job, and where would she live, for heck’s sake, with a
            kid?!!?! Dorms for married studies are EXPENSIVE!!!

            I would tell her that the ultimate decision was hers, and that what I might decide under the same circumstances is irrelevant.

            Because, unlike YOU, I’m not a fucking busybody.

            By the way, I’ve always been curious about what one of you – Suba,
            fiona, dudebro – would say to your dear friend who’s had an abortion,
            then some years later, begins to deeply regret the decision she made.

            I would tell her to seek psychiatric help from a non-religious, non-CPC organization that would actually help her deal with it, rather than trying to worsen it.

            In fact, I think YOU need to seek competent psychiatric help, to find out why you’re such a fucking sanctimonious twat.

          • prolifemama

            I would tell her that the ultimate decision was hers, and that what I might decide under the same circumstances is irrelevant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you have a point?

          • prolifemama

            Yes, made succinctly, and which is now under scrutiny by RHRC…

          • fiona64

            You know what I find fascinating? AntiChoiceMama has already admitted that it’s other people’s problems when it comes to ponying up, but she gets pissed when she doesn’t like the answers she receives when we reply that we would leave the decision in the hands of the pregnant woman. She moves the goalposts constantly, and accuses *us* of not debating in good faith.

            She’s a freaking joke.

          • prolifemama

            AntiChoiceMama has already admitted that it’s other
            people’s problems when it comes to ponying up…

            I have admitted no such thing. I simply ask what you pro-choicers are doing/would do to help women in unintended pregnancy, since
            you claim to be the ones who “truly care” about women. Your response of “leaving the decision to the pregnant woman” makes it easy on you, too easy. You insist on specific tasks I must do in order to be a true prolifer, yet you’re not willing to be truly pro-woman by helping pregnant women with their unique needs specific to their situations.

            I ask what you would do for women grieving their children
            lost to abortion, and your response is that post-abortion regret doesn’t exist.

            Would you actually criticize an abortive woman to her face, for
            regretting her decision? How can that be loving by any stretch? Do you only support women in abortion if they don’t regret it afterward?
            Many times women see abortion as a way out of their immediate circumstances; they don’t think about one or two or ten years down the road. They are “sure” they won’t miss their aborted child, won’t grieve, won’t regret. Do you hold it against them when these emotions surface, scold them for having them, tell them they must have been brainwashed by “religious zealots”?

          • dudebro

            If you want to force women to give birth then you can bloody well pay for it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I believe what Fiona said was that the woman should receive professional help. If you’d actually bothered to read her post you’d know that.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Did you even READ any of our responses? Every point you brought was addressed in detail, more than once, by more than one person. Yet here you are repeating original questions as if they were never addressed, or claiming things that were never said.

            -Of course the decision is upto the pregnant woman, and NO ONE has a right to influence her one way or the other. That’s the part you don’t seem to get. It’s NOT YOUR DECISION.

            -If a woman has chosen to give birth and needs help, we already told you what we would do. Which was to help find all resources that would help achieve her goal. If anyone had “abortion regret” we also told you what we’d do, which was to find counseling from a medical professional.

            Why are you still throwing a fit? Did you not read the answers, not understand them, or do you not like the solutions? If you don’t like them, why?

          • fiona64

            I ask what you would do for women grieving their children
            lost to abortion, and your response is that post-abortion regret doesn’t exist.

            Once again, you’re a goddamned liar. What I said was that if a woman presented to me in this fashion (and why she would do so is beyond me, but hey …), I would tell her to seek competent psychiatric help. Just like you need to do to see why you’re such a sanctimonious busybody.

            But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way. You usually don’t anyway.

            Many times women see abortion as a way out of their immediate
            circumstances; they don’t think about one or two or ten years down the
            road. They are “sure” they won’t miss their aborted child, won’t grieve,
            won’t regret. Do you hold it against them when these emotions surface,
            scold them for having them, tell them they must have been brainwashed by
            “religious zealots”?

            And what do you tell the hundreds of millions of post-abortive women who NEVER regret it? That they regret it and just don’t know it yet?

            You’re so full of shit that your eyes are brown.

          • dudebro

            That debate “strategy” sounds just like the strategy that is used by the majority of anti choicers

          • fiona64

            Reply to AntiChoiceMama, in moderation:

            It’s not my fault you’re too goddamned stupid to understand my responses.

            Thank you, though, for admitting that you accuse the pro-choice of committing crimes. Go back to LieSiteSpews, where your bullshit preaching is seen as profound.

          • prolifemama

            I’m not anti-choice. I’m anti-abortion.

            I’m not stupid. I simply refuse to allow you to incorrectly frame the prolife stance or redefine my terminology.

            I do not accuse prochoice of committing a crime. Abortion is legal. However, it is the killing of innocent and defenseless human beings.
            A thing can be legal, and still be profoundly wrong.

            While I may have at one time, I do not currently submit articles or comments to LifeSiteNews.

          • dudebro

            You want to force women to gestate. That is to deny them choice. You are a forced birther.

          • prolifemama

            Even when abortion is again illegal, I and other prolifers will encourage mothers unexpectedly pregnant to let their unborn babies continue living, by our willingness to help them through whatever hardships they face because of their untimely pregnancies, providing whatever they need for as long as they need, so that abortion doesn’t seem to them their only option.
            Force is never mentioned by prolifers, only by prochoicers determined to misrepresent the prolife.

          • dudebro

            Criminalization of abortion = force.

          • fiona64

            Abortion will NEVER be illegal again, outside of your fantasies. Many states have enacted laws *guaranteeing* a woman’s right to choose … and many of us will make sure that women in need can get to those states.

            Sucks to be you, doesn’t it?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, you are anti-choice. And if what you’ve been doing on here is in any way representative of the ‘counseling’ you claim to do from time to time, you’ve been doing a pretty piss-poor job. And you kind of suck at evangelizing too.

          • Suba gunawardana

            There’s nothing to “incorrectly frame”. You wish to criminalize abortion, thereby FORCING all zefs to birth. Ergo, you are a FORCED-BIRTHER.

            “Pro-life” is to promote life, NOT to selectively promote the life of human zefs AT THE EXPENSE OF all other life, including those of the women carrying said zefs, the children said zefs would become once forced into birth, and all non-humans deliberately killed to sustain the lives of the new humans thus forced into life.

            Since your stance includes DEATH to so many living beings other than human zefs, your stance cannot be defined as “pro-life”. If anything, it is “ANTI-Life”.

            So, take your pick. You are forced-birth, anti-choice, or anti-life. Certainly not “pro-life”.
            If you disagree, please give reasons :)

          • fiona64

            If there are unwanted actual children, and not just women not wanting to
            get (not “be”) pregnant, then they already exist, and no one’s
            “forcing” them “into life.” Where did you people study biology?

            This is completely non-responsive to the question: what are YOU doing to help born children?

            Of course, the answer is NOTHING, because in ProLieMoomoo land, sacrifice is something else other people do.

            Because you’re a selfish bitch.

          • dudebro

            If you weren’t so despicably selfish you’d mortgage that house and save the life of a dying child.

          • ansuz

            I have more ethical qualms about calamari and bacon than I do about people choosing to obtain abortions.

          • prolifemama

            Sadly, I don’t doubt this is true.
            So, you do without BLTs and avoid seafood restaurants – do you free the lobsters in the tanks, too? Precisely what form do these ‘qualms’ take?

          • ansuz

            I eat totally vegetarian (have for eight years)(including avoiding gelatine), and eat vegan where I can.
            I also avoid restaurants wherever I can, because I have an eating disorder and being around food makes me feel sick (and, not infrequently, throw up).

            I feel strongly about treating pigs and be-tentacled sea beasties well, more so than many other food animals, because of how smart those animals tend to be. The mirror test is about where I draw the line from it being just my business to it being something I ought to be doing something about (even if my mental health and financial status don’t currently allow me to do much in the way of activism).

          • prolifemama

            You’ll opine about smart animals while ignoring and condemning to death members of your own species simply because they’re currently in utero…
            You know, with an unintended pregnancy it doesn’t have to be either mama or baby. Both can not only survive but thrive without infringing upon the other’s life.

          • ansuz

            “You’ll opine about smart animals while ignoring and condemning to death members of your own species simply because they’re currently in utero…”
            No, not simply because they’re currently in utero. There’s a big difference between being in someone else’s body and being in someone else’s body when they don’t want you there. I have the absolute right to eject from my body anything that I do not want in it. If the person or thing does not survive being ejected from my body, I do not consider that to be my problem; it infringed on me first, and I was only defending myself.

            “You know, with an unintended pregnancy it doesn’t have to be either mama or baby. Both can not only survive but thrive without infringing upon the other’s life.”

            Did you forget who you’re talking to? I’m the one with the bucketloads of mental health issues, who is putting loads energy into not killing myself. Changes to my body make me more suicidal. There is absolutely no way to get a live baby and a live ansuz out of an ansuz-pregnancy. If abortion is not available, you will get dead pregnant ansuz.
            Because of course an unintended pregnancy doesn’t have to mean either mama (though that word would not apply to me, even if I were to become pregnant) or baby. Sometimes, though, it does mean one or the other, no matter how much whining and pleading and moral grandstanding you do.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Death and suffering are NOT the same. Death is an unavoidable part of life, suffering is not.

            Those zefs you constantly clamor about, die without suffering.

            Those animals you don’t care about, and those unwanted children you force into life, SUFFER. Sometimes horribly, sometimes for prolonged periods, sometimes all their life until it ends in a slow painful death.

            You fight to promote the latter, i.e. promote suffering of the innocent. You claim “concern” for non-sentient beings while actively sacrificing living breathing sentient beings just to assuage your beliefs.

          • prolifemama

            Suffering is avoidable? Suba, EVERYbody suffers at some point, even if it’s a hangnail.
            Who are these ‘innocent’ to whom you refer? I’m pretty sure they’re not the unborn babies you casually diss.
            And which livingbreathingsentientbeings do I ‘actively sacrifice’?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Read my post again, it’s all there. Are you trying to play dumb or did you really miss the point in your anger?

          • fiona64

            Are you really this great of a simpleton?

          • fiona64

            Shut up already with your stupid CPC talking points. You contribute nothing of substance, your “facts” have been debunked repeatedly, and we already know you’re here to “evangelize.” No one wants your snake oil.

          • prolifemama

            fiona! So glad to have you back, and being polite again!

          • fiona64

            FOAD, you miserable sow.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Again there’s a huge difference between a GOOD life and any old crappy life. If the only life available is one full of suffering, death is a better alternative.

          • prolifemama

            Suba, you pro-aborts are so non-creative, such doomsday prophesying folk. It’s gotta be a real downer, having such limited vision and virtually no philanthropic desire to assist your fellow human beings.
            I guess if it were left up to you guys, there would exist no seeing-eye dogs, no crutches, no hearing aids, no artificial limbs, no prescription glasses, no band-aids, no ibuprofen, no mouthwash, no soap. The list goes on.

          • ansuz

            *boggles at leaps*

          • Suba gunawardana

            That didn’t address my point at all. What right do you have to force other people’s unwanted zefs to birth (and on to miserable lives as unwanted children), unless YOU volunteer to provide a good life for each and every one of them?

            To force unwanted children to life & abandon them in a hostile word is willful premeditated child abuse.

          • prolifemama

            There are so many prolife people helping mothers in unintended pregnancy, it’s not up to just one person.
            If you want to help too, contact your local prolife agency and tell them what you’re able to do. They can use anyone who’s willing to help families.

          • dudebro

            Diapers and bibles are worthless.

          • prolifemama

            Bibles’ usefulness to women in crisis pregnancies could possibly be spiritedly debated.

            But diapers, worthless? Evidently you have no children, or it’s been a loooooong time since you’ve changed a baby.

          • dudebro

            Diapers and bibles are a mere drop in the bucket compared to the cost of raising the kid for 18 years.

            Doubly worthless if the woman is homeless with a brand new baby and 20k in hospital bills.

          • fiona64

            One pack of diapers doesn’t last long.

          • Suba gunawardana

            “Help” in case of unintended pregnancy is NOT coercing them to give birth at all cost then abandoning mama & baby to poverty, or taking the baby to sell to the highest bidder. That kind of help is only motivated by greed.

            Real help extends far beyond that, including providing ALL options for the pregnant women, and in the event they do give birth, providing for the children. Considering the appalling statistics on child neglect and abuse, the latter is obviously not being done. To add more children to a broken system which cannot care for the existing children, is to willfully promote child abuse.

          • prolifemama

            Prolifers DO help provide for children – that’s the whole point of being prolife, Suba.
            But most women have pride in their children and families, and don’t want to be too long dependent upon others’ assistance. Prolifers help in this area, too, providing job training, help in getting financing for continued education, and whatever else families need to stand on their own feet.
            Don’t know where you’re getting that bit about selling babies… you’ve watched too many Law&Order SVU episodes, perhaps.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Apparently that “help” they provide is abysmally disproportionate to the numbers of needy children they force into life.

            Otherwise why is it that: A child is abused every 10 seconds; over 4 children die from abuse every day; the foster system is forever full; hundreds of children die in the system every year; and thousands age out of the system every year never getting a home?

            Adding more children to an overburdened system without fixing it first, only promotes more suffering.

          • fiona64

            Liar.

          • fiona64

            There are so many anti-choice people suckering women with unintended pregnancies into giving up their infants … as long as they’re white and perfectly healthy. If you want to help, contact your local adoption mill and tell them what you’re able to do. They can use more liars.

            There. I fixed it for you.

          • fiona64

            And still non-responsive to Suba’s question.

          • prolifemama

            To which question of Suba’s do you refer?
            My response not being what either you or Suba want it to be, doesn’t mean I haven’t responded.

          • Suba gunawardana

            My most recent question you ignored: What right do you have to force other people’s unwanted zefs to birth (and on to miserable lives as unwanted children), unless YOU volunteer to provide a good life for each and every one of them?

            My previous questions you ignored? Too many to list.

          • fiona64

            The one that has so far been asked twice, and around which you have tap-danced: What right do you have to force other people’s unwanted zefs to birth (and on to miserable lives as unwanted children), unless YOU volunteer to provide a good life for each and every one of them?

            Your response was: There are so many prolife people helping mothers in unintended pregnancy, it’s not up to just one person.

            And yes, that is non-responsive to the question.

            In other words, like *all* anti-choicers, you don’t do jack shit; you expect *others* to pick up the slack. You are the one making the demands; why aren’t YOU doing anything about it.

          • prolifemama

            You, and others here, continue to purposely misrepresent the
            prolife position on abortion.

            You, Suba, and others here relentlessly misrepresent the prolife position on abortion.

            Abortion in the U.S. is currently legal, so there is no ‘forcing’
            women to carry their children to term. I and other prolifers offer alternatives to abortion that women in unintended pregnancy are grateful to learn exist for them and their families.

            Once again, it is not a ‘given’ that unwanted pregnancies result in unwanted children, nor that their lives will be miserable.
            Is that what you would say to a woman asking you for help with an unintended pregnancy, that unless she aborts, her life and that of her child won’t be worth living?

            Who’s turning whose backs on pregnant women in need?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Please answer this honestly: Do you want abortion to be ILLEGAL? Yes or No?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, Suba would do what most of us here would do. Listen to her,give her the options–yes, all of the options–and tell her that we’ll support her regardless of what decision she chooses to make. Because it’s her decision to make–not ours. You, on the other hand would only listen in hopes of finding ways to proselytize to her–to persuade her to choose what you want her to choose, because somehow that’s what counts as ‘counseling’ in your twisted view.

          • fiona64

            no philanthropic desire to assist your fellow human beings.

            Go fuck yourself, you heartless cow. Your compassion isn’t for actual born people; you’ve demonstrated repeatedly that you don’t give a shit about what happens to non-feti. You pretend you’re such a good, moral person, but the truth is that you’re a self-righteous, smarmy bitch.

            There, I said it.

            Yes, I’m done being even remotely polite to you. I guarantee I’ve fed more hungry people, donated more to charity, and done more for actual REAL people (as opposed to potential people) than you have ever done in your miserable, busybody, lying lifetime.

          • prolifemama

            Remotely polite?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why do we need to be? Your views are reprehensible.

          • fiona64

            She’s a disgusting, amoral piece of trash. Full stop.

          • fiona64

            You are absolutely disgusting–at the moment I can’t find words bad enough, but you’re it.

            I try very hard to avoid reducing women to vulgar euphemisms referencing their genitalia … but this one is definitely a giant rhymes-with-runt.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            When are you going to answer my question of weeks ago?
            What are you willing to do to my daughters to force them to bear children and keep them from utilizing abortion?

          • prolifemama

            PD, I responded to that question ‘weeks ago’ in depth. Find my reply, and read it again.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bullshyte.
            When are you going to answer my question of weeks ago?
            What are you willing to do to my daughters to force them to bear children and keep them from utilizing abortion?

          • fiona64

            Casse-toi, putaine.

          • prolifemama

            There’s a wonderful quote that your most colorful post calls to mind:

            People don’t get angry when lies are told about them; they get angry when the truth is told about them.

            I must have hit pretty close to home with some of my comments to spark such ire in you.

            It’s not that I’ve proven I don’t care about “non-feti” as you refer to those human beings who have been born and are therefore safe from being aborted. It’s your weird idea that caring for the unborn disables one’s capacity to care for their mothers, fathers and siblings as well.

            What a limited experience you must have of the capacity of the human heart to love!

          • dudebro

            The truth is that you are dishonest and condescending.

            You are nothing more than a pretentious narcissistic twat.

          • Suba gunawardana

            That quote applies ONLY to those who have something to hide. (Does the adoption industry ring a bell….?)

            If you do care about non-feti, you have yet to show it. As I pointed out countless times, adding more unwanted children to a broken system only promotes suffering (of the new children as well as existing). Adding more people to an overburdened planet only promotes destruction and more suffering.

            You have yet to justify how the life of unwanted zefs supersede the safety & well-being of all other living beings, including the women carrying said zefs, the unwanted children the zefs would become if forced into life, and the billions of non-humans actively killed to sustain the lives of the new humans.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Good lord. I didn’t think it was possible for you to become more of a preachy, sanctimonious ass, but I think you just managed to outdo yourself with this post.

          • fiona64

            People don’t get angry when lies are told about them; they get angry when the truth is told about them.

            That explains why you’re so angry when you’re proven wrong (all of the time), doesn’t it?

            I must have hit pretty close to home with some of my comments to spark such ire in you.

            Yes, you fucking bitch, you did: with your assertions that my parents should have gestated and delivered a blind, deaf, mentally retarded infant who would NEVER progress beyond that stage, and who would have destroyed any hope at quality of life for a young couple and the child they already had. And with your assertions that organ donations to living, breathing PERSONS were immoral, but that forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will was the height of morality. And with your assertions that pro-choice people, as you put it in the post to which I replied, have “no philanthropic desire to help your fellow human beings.”

            How many people living with HIV and AIDS have YOU fed? How many homeless people have YOU fed? How many seeing-eye dogs have YOU helped train? How much time do you spend at the local homeless or animal shelter? How much time do you spend teaching people how to read?

            Oh, none? Yeah, that’s about what I thought.

            You’re an ugly, filthy, disgusting, hypocritical piece of shit. And I’m embarrassed by your mere *existence.*

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I second Fiona. Go fuck yourself.

          • dudebro

            no philanthropic desire to assist your fellow human beings.

            Mortgaged that house yet? Free bibles aren’t gonna pay for the medication and surgery that a dying child needs, kiddo.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So you want to force terrible Suba to be a Mother by law?
            What are you willing to do to Suba to compel her to give birth and prevent her from utilizing abortion?
            Maybe you will answer this time?

          • fiona64

            No, you stupid POS … we are saying that you don’t get to decide how much risk anyone but yourself should take. If someone decides they want to take the medical and financial risks involved in a given pregnancy, hooray for them! Other people do not need to make the same call in the same situation.

          • prolifemama

            “No, you stupid POS…”
            And there’s fiona’s trademark friendliness, and overwhelming tolerance of another’s views.
            Gee, such a warm feeling inside.

          • fiona64

            If you don’t want to be called out for being a stupid POS, stop being a stupid POS.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What are you willing to do to us to force us to give birth and prevent us from utilizing abortion?

          • dudebro

            Your house has more intrinsic value to you than the life of an innocent, defenceless child.

            Mortgage it, and save a life. Or do you not believe that sick 5 year olds are worth as much as zygotes?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are a stupid. You are ‘challenging’ no one. You are a pluperfect fool and a stone rapist.

            My Catholic Mother had an abortion because of financial hardship when it was illegal. She and my Dad decided three of us was all they could handle financially. We were 14, 12 and 10. My Mom could have died. I know a past President of NJ NOW whose Mother died of illegal abortion when she was 9 years old.

            Mom was 37, working full time and doing IBEW work. Dad was intermittently crippled with a congenital form of arthritis. Another pregnancy would have been a serious social, financial and physical disruption for her and for our family. Most women who get an abortion already have children.

            It is despicable to compel folks to give birth to children they cannot afford and/or do not want BY LAW. It is Nazi stuff.

            My body and its contents belongs to (pick one):
            1. You.
            2. the State.
            3. Me and my family.

            My children belong with and to:
            1. You.
            2. the State.
            3. Me and my family.

          • ansuz

            Preeeeetty sure ADHD is not something that can be diagnosed prenatally. Hell, I wasn’t diagnosed until I was seventeen.

            “Are you TRULY measuring a human being alongside a stack of currency?”

            Not so much, as we (most of us) see no reason to value zefs as persons.
            What we (most of us) believe is that if someone who is pregnant does not want to remain pregnant (whether it is financial reasons, a poor outlook for the future of the potential child, or any other factors inducing those feelings of ‘do not want to remain pregnant’), putting barriers in the way of that person ending their pregnancy safely is, in a great many cases, preventing them from ending an ongoing nonconsensual use of their body (i.e., rape).

          • goatini

            No, the article is about Down’s Syndrome. That IS what we are “talking” here. You threw in autism and ADHD, as if those are screened for in fetal testing and diagnosis, which just proves you to be even more disingenuous, and deliberately and maliciously dishonest, than you’ve previously shown yourself here to be.

            Down’s Syndrome has a wide spectrum. The idealized end of the spectrum contains the very, very small percentage of the somewhat high-functioning – which functioning can only be achieved and maintained by very expensive ongoing therapeutic intervention from birth, continuing for life. The majority of patients are NOT in this high-functioning group, and many patients are profoundly mentally, and also physically, disabled. Heart conditions are also endemic in this genetic defect. Vast sums of money are required for treatment, therapy, and total care for life – often exceeding the life of the parents.

            Modern medical science can now identify profound defects during pregnancy. It is a boon and a Godsend that a woman can now decide to safely and legally terminate a compromised pregnancy, so she can try to have a successful, healthy pregnancy at another time. It’s simply NONE of your, or anyone else’s, business, and it’s evil and ugly for you to think for even a moment that it IS your business.

          • fiona64

            Thank you. I’ve told the story before of my mom’s illegal abortion in mid-1964. I was about six months old. She was about 8 weeks pregnant and came down with rubella. Her obstetrician told her, quite frankly, that the chances were about 99 percent that, given the stage of pregnancy, the resulting infant would be blind, deaf, and profoundly developmentally delayed. He talked to her about all of the risks, benefits and alternatives. He also told her that, when she was thinking about this decision, she needed to consider that she already had one baby at home. The last thing he said was, “If you need me to, I will find someone who will help you.”

            Of course, I didn’t know about this first-hand; I learned about it later. and it was part of the road to me becoming pro-choice. Nothing is as black-and-white as the anti-choice think.

            AntiChoiceMama is very blasé about how much financial and medical risk strangers should be required to take. Of course, she will argue that the 1 percent chance that everything would *maybe* be okay was worth it and my parents shouldn’t have made the call they did. But she wouldn’t be the one dealing with an infantile adult during her frail elderly years, either. Feh.

          • prolifemama

            ffiona, unless one has precisely the right genetics, most of us will become ‘infantile’ adults in our elderly years. I suppose you advocate “assisted” suicide of the old and infirm, then…

          • fiona64

            Stop being such a deliberately obtuse dumbfuck.

            You know damned good and well that I was referring to my elderly parents having to deal with an infantile adult.

          • fiona64

            I suppose you advocate “assisted” suicide of the old and infirm, then…

            I support a person’s right to decide to die with dignity.

            I realize that you are intellectually incapable of understanding that (or the difference between what I said and what you are implying), but there it is.

          • dudebro

            Fiona is Hitler, didn’t you know that already?

          • Suba gunawardana

            If I ever became infirm to the point of being infantile, I would WELCOME assisted suicide. My fear is some religious nut medical professional would deny me that relief just to assuage their own fears (or sadistic beliefs).

          • Jennifer Starr

            Of course she’s blase about it-as long as the risk is taken by someone else, it’s all good with her.

          • fiona64

            Yep, she’s big on “Do as I say, not as I do.”

          • dudebro

            She has implied that money grows on trees, and that an impoverished family should be able to raise a severely disabled child with bills running into the millions…so if this is the case why can’t she lift a finger and mortgage her house to save a life? Surely she can recoup the hundreds of thousands of dollars with minimal effort yes?

          • fiona64

            And, of course, below she says that the pro-choice have no philanthropical aims, and that it’s the anti-choice who are responsible for seeing-eye dogs, etc. She’s a lying bitch, and my gloves are now off. Period.

          • dudebro

            For PLM, pro-life is about feeling superior, I would wager.

          • dudebro

            Yet you believe that doctors have the intrinsic right to mutilate women for ectopic pregnancy.

          • Suba gunawardana

            If “No one has the intrinsic right to end another’s life, except possibly in self-defense.”, then what intrinsic right do you have to kill billions of animals/plants for the necessity & convenience of yourself, your family, and the millions of other humans you force into life?

          • prolifemama

            Seriously, suba? What do you eat, if not plant matter and animal flesh?

          • Suba gunawardana

            It’s not I but YOU who clamor about “not having the right to kill” while merrily killing billions. See much hypocrisy in your behavior there?

          • fiona64

            You do NOT get to decide how much medical and financial risk some strangers should be required to make. Period.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Actually there are a number of situations in which we can end the life of another and not be punished: defense of self or others, assisted suicide, execution, war, police work.

          • prolifemama

            It’s true that if it’s forced, it ‘s not a sacrifice. But you can offer to help them so that killing a family member doesn’t look to be their only or even best option.

            Families should indeed decide important medical matters for their under-age members. But killing that family member simply to avoid providing them needed care? This is not the decision-maker’s life being ended, but the life of another human being.

            Government aid isn’t the only resource available to disabled people. Do some research, check into what’s available in your area alone.

          • dudebro

            Abortion to avoid future suffering. For everyone involved.

            Now I know you get off on the suffering of others, but not everyone agrees that forced suffering is a great thing.

            You appear to ONLY have empathy for zygotes.

          • goatini

            Family members are born into the family. Operative word here being “born”.

          • prolifemama

            Goatini, perhaps you’re aware that the new language used at Mass for the last three years includes the following change in the Creed:
            “…and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.”
            It no longer says “born of the Virgin Mary, and became man” because Jesus didn’t become man at His birth, but at his conception within Mary’s womb. The Creed now acknowledges this scientific fact.

          • goatini

            You know you’re really, really reaching when the words “scientific fact” are used to qualify the Catholic liturgy. Might as well discuss as “fact” how thrilled Galileo was to finally get released from Hell after 350 years.

          • prolifemama

            It’s not “liturgy” but our profession of our faith. The fact the Creed now acknowledges is that Jesus’ human life began at fertilization, not at His birth.

          • goatini

            The Credo is part of the Roman Catholic liturgy, and the liturgy is most emphatically not “scientific fact”. Maryam of Nazareth wasn’t “fertilized by the Holy Spirit”, either, but that’s mythology to be debunked on another day.

          • prolifemama

            Kind of tough to provide proof of your stance on this, isn’t it, goatini? Do I remember your saying in an earlier post that you self-identify as Catholic because you were raised as one, but you’re no longer practicing your faith?
            The Creed isn’t limited to the Liturgy, but can also be recited while praying the Rosary, or telling a non-Catholic what we believe in a nutshell.
            The Liturgy is the most factual you can get.

          • goatini

            This whole “abortion mentality” nonsense is so offensive. The Church didn’t give a rat’s patoot about the damage done to women and families by the “every sperm is sacred mentality”.

          • prolifemama

            goati-dearie, the Church does not teach that each sperm is sacred.
            Don’t confuse Monty Python lyrics for the Catechism…

          • Jennifer Starr

            Goati-dearie??

          • prolifemama

            That’s much friendlier than some of the stuff she’s said to me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Somehow I doubt that friendliness is what you’re actually aiming for.

          • fiona64

            Given the passive-aggressive condescension you display at every turn, you’re getting exactly the response you deserve.

          • prolifemama

            Jen and fio, you’re just ticked that someone doesn’t agree with you. Maybe a read through your posts will reveal your own aggressive attitude – forget any passivity there – and the abuse you heap on the heads of those who live by more merciful lights.

          • fiona64

            Just. Go. Away. No one wants your smarmy, fact-free CPC talking points shoved in their faces.

          • Suba gunawardana

            May I point out that I have rebutted every single “argument” you ever brought. All you do is run off and post the same original nonsense somewhere else again & again.

            If you believe in the propaganda you spread, why can’t you honestly defend it for once, by rebutting every argument and taking a debate to its conclusion? Your inability/reluctance to do so tells me that you don’t believe in this crap either, and are in it just for the money (or something worse).

          • Jennifer Starr

            Aggressive attitude? Sweet little old innocent me? Surely you jest.

          • fiona64

            Apparently, anyone who calls her out on her fact-free posts has an “aggressive attitude.”

            She’s a freaking joke.

          • fiona64

            You wouldn’t know mercy if it bit you in the arse.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Merciful is denying a living person a needed organ transplant in favor of pretending that a brain-dead person isn’t ‘really for reals’ dead? Yeah, you can take your ‘mercy’ and shove it.

          • goatini

            Dearie, I was just listening to Catholic Answers on EWTN radio this afternoon, where Patrick Madrid and Tim Staples were acknowledging that the ovum was not even known to exist until the 1800s. The Church most emphatically DID believe, until it was debunked, that “every sperm is sacred”, aka the homunculus.

          • prolifemama

            The Church teaching on the beginning of a human being’s life changed not with debunking, but with science. The Church was and still is a patron of the arts and sciences, through its monasteries which became the university system still in use today. Did you know that seismology was once known as the Jesuit science.
            The Church has always taught that human life is sacred. She has, for decades now, acknowledged that the beginning of each and every human being’s life is fertilization; hence Her uncompromising position on abortion and assisted suicide. Read Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae for a refresher.

          • fiona64

            And here you tried to pretend you weren’t religious.

            I’m getting to the point where (as Judge Marilyn Milian says) I wouldn’t believe you if your tongue came notarized.

          • prolifemama

            What gave you the idea I was pretending to not be religious?

            I believe one of my posts includes the fact that I’m a Catholic girl.

          • fiona64

            Probably the post where you said “I’m not religious.” ::shrug::

            In any event, you are quite clearly trying to insert your religious beliefs into law. Sorry to have to tell you this, but this is a secular country. If you want to go live in a Catholic country, rock on. I happened to be in Rome during the papal inauguration (trip planned long before it happened) and thought that it was one of the filthiest places I’d ever seen … but you’d probably love it. You can’t go 10 feet without there being a church, complete with a fake mendicant in front of it.

          • goatini

            And Muslims invented higher mathematics. Quite a tragedy, how the lust for theocratic power, exercised through radical fundamentalist mythology wielded by the powerful to exploit the uneducated masses, inevitably destroys the brilliant scientific minds within the faith. The results are eras of exceptional intellectual and cultural flowering within ancient theocracies, rendered into nothing so much as archeological curiosities.

          • fiona64

            There is no “abortion mentality.”

            You, OTOH, display an immense amount of “slaver mentality,” with your desire to force women to gestate against their wills.

            BTW, it’s nice how blasé you are about *other people’s* financial security, etc. Privileged much?

          • Suba gunawardana

            The fighting chance is NOT for any old crappy life full of neglect, but a life of good quality; A life complete with love and resources that every child deserves.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. I watched my friend cope with a Down’s Syndrome son.

            I liked Jamie, her son. He is a pretty good artist because she was a PhD artist and carefully painstakingly taught him. Not only did he have endless health problems, he molested my four year old Lizzy. He also molested a friend’s son. Not a mean bone in Jamie’s body. And he was a Special Olympics champ.

            I would abort a DS fetus in a New York minute. I have seen the deal up close. I respect that others might not do so. I expect my choice to be respected in return.

          • Jennifer Starr

            My cousin has Down Syndrome. She’s 19 now, recently graduated HS and taking life skills classes. She can be sweet (at times) but she’s also sassy, hard-headed and take charge–a girl with attitude and she’s wonderful. She gets very annoyed when total strangers try to come up and try to hug her–no idea what’s up with that but you have to get to know her before she’ll hug you–she doesn’t hug just anyone. Thankfully she doesn’t have any big health issues apart from minor digestive ailments, her mother is lucky to have a very good job with health insurance and her father is now able to afford to stay at home and supervise her. And it has taken specialized education, physical therapy, speech therapy–a lot of things to get to where she is today and even with insurance it doesn’t come cheap. It’s a huge undertaking, one which my aunt and uncle chose willingly and I believe that other familes should have the right to choose whether they wish to do that as well.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            There are high functioning DS folks. God bless her and her family.
            It is not a choice I would make.
            What will happen when they die? Jamies stays at a special home for the developmentally delayed adult. It costs the state of NJ 60K per year to keep him there. His sister is Jamie’s guardian now that Jane has died.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There is a trust set up for her and I’m listed as a guardian in the will in case anything does happen to them but there’s still worry about the future–that never goes away. But she has a lot of family around, which is a plus. But I find it offensive that people like anti-choice mama are so blase about the needs and expenses–I guess because they aren’t the ones who have to figure out where the money will come from? My aunt and uncle have means, but they’re lucky. Not everyone is.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Good to have family. That is why I had the Viper Girls. I had amnios because I was in my 40s. I had a 1 in 4 chance of a fetus defective in some way. So I thought long about what I could do and would do.

            ProDeathMumu is full of all those noble things she? would do. I do not believe she? has had sex or borne children.

            Ordinary everyday Catholic women have a higher rate of abortions than the Protestants do. And 98% of us use contraception. We prefer life and living to sainthood.

            When she makes these pronouncements about how evil no good value deficient we are, I think of my hardworking Catholic Mother standing there listening to ProDeathMumu say these things she says and I want to hurt her so bad. So bad. What an evil chunt it is.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I think I saw the figure $250,000.00 to raise a normal child to maturity. More like 7 figures.

          • StealthGaytheist

            They don’t consider what it means to raise any chikd past the first six months of life. They think if they’ve made you give birth and tossed you a few trinkets they’ve done a good thing. They ignore the next 18+ years and tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars it takes to support the child they were so adamant about bringing into the world.

          • fiona64

            AntiChoiceMama up there doesn’t care about any of that. She works at a CPC, trying to get the right* kind of woman to give up the right** kind of infant to the right*** kind of family.

            * White
            ** Perfectly healthy, preferably male
            *** Evangelical Christian or Catholic

          • JamieHaman

            Off topic, but I keep wondering how many of these “pro-life” Christians went to the border, to rescue some children from drug war zones.

            I suspect those children are both the wrong color, (brown) and too old (not newborns) for happy adopting on the part of those folks.

          • fiona64

            On another board, myintx has told us that she and her fellow “pro-lifers” do not have to worry about those children. Children from other countries, she told us, are not subject to the same human rights concerns as embryos in this one. It was mind-boggling … and, I suspect, truly reflects the mindset at hand.

          • JamieHaman

            My guess is that myintx is claiming to be a Christian tool?

            Salt of the earth type? While she forgets when the earth is salted, that salt poisons everything there?

          • fiona64

            Of course she is. She was banned from RHRC for trolling a while back, but she’s still spreading her stupidity elsewhere. And, like PLM, she works for a CPC.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yesterday she implied that toddlers don’t cling to my leg because they ‘think I want to kill them.’ What a lovely , ‘Christian’ person–it’s easy to see why she was banned here.

          • fiona64

            That woman is bizarre.

          • goatini

            AYFKM???? That malicious pervert actually wrote that??? I shouldn’t be surprised, though, since it’s been proven over and over again that the fehadists “care” only up until the umbilical cord is cut.

          • fiona64

            I wish I were making it up. I don’t remember which thread (it was on SPL), but I put up the graphic that shows an embryo and a starving third-world kid that talks about how if you fight to protect the embryo but not the actual kid, you are not pro-life. She argued that those starving children were the responsibility of their parents and not her problem. When someone else brought up the refugee kids all over the world, she said that the lack of human rights laws in other countries were not her problem, and that she was concerned with fighting for the unborn in the US. It was rage-inducing how blase she was about the whole thing.

          • Ella Warnock

            Then obviously it isn’t fetii in this country that she’s concerned with, either. But we already knew that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I DESPISE MYINTX.

          • prolifemama

            fiona, I don’t work at a CPC.
            You’ve wrongly extrapolated your amazing fiction from my posts, made ass-umptions from what you’ve read through your blood-red angry eyeballs, and assume I am also Caucasian and therefore a bigot.
            What WILL you do for an encore, dear?

          • P. McCoy

            It seems pathetic of you if you ARE non- White, to stump for a political religious ideology that sees your race’s children if they need.help as useless eaters and their mothers as welfare “queens.”

          • goatini

            //fiona, first off, I don’t work at a CPC//

            Oh, that’s right, SHE works for a (hahahahahaha) “Pregnancy Decision Health Center”.

            That’s the new fehadist euphemism for “tax-free and actual healthcare-free misogynistic exploitation and theocratic propaganda facility”.

          • prolifemama

            Pregnancy Decision Health Center (PDHC) is a licensed name, not a generic, and affiliated with Heartbeat International. And no, I don’t work for them.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you volunteer for them?

          • prolifemama

            I have at times. I am currently caregiving for an elderly live-in relative.

          • goatini

            Licensing a bullshit “description” doesn’t make it a truthful description.

          • prolifemama

            goatini, look up Dr. Margaret Hartshorn, foundress of PDHC and Heartbeat International.

          • goatini

            Peggy is a non-medical doctor who was so bitter about her own fertility issues that she’s spent the last 40+ years as an enemy to female US citizens’ civil rights, acting out her anger on innocent citizens in a battle to erase their civil, human and Constitutional rights. Yeah, that’s some “authority”, all right. What’s the Ph.D. in, anyway? She doesn’t advertise that.

          • prolifemama

            Missed the Ph.D, hmm? No, it probably wasn’t mentioned in whatever article you googled, especially if (as I suspect you are
            wont to do) your search included terms like “anti-choice.”

            Typically, pro-aborts’ articles about prolifers – especially professional women – omit any personal info (degrees, awards, accomplishments) that portray them in a positive light. Sour grapes, mostly.

            Dr. Hartshorn’s a college English professor. Didn’t say she was an “authority.” She lives her prolife stance by providing help to women in unintended pregnancies, and has founded a global network of affiliated pregnancy help facilities. I soloed at their chat center,
            OptionLine, for a few years.

            You’re twisting the truth again, goatgirl. Many ‘female US citizens’ would have felt forced into aborting their children had not Dr. Hartshorn and her husband opened their home to them beginning in 1974, helping them continue their educations, providing pre- and postnatal care, assisting in job-searching. Whatever the women needed to help them continue their pregnancies without abandoning their life goals, the Hartshorns helped them get it.

          • goatini

            Very telling – of course there is no way I am doing my searches with “+anti-choice” in the search string – but we now know that you’re doing your searches with “+pro-life” in YOUR search string. What a nitwit.

            So the Ph.D. is in English? What specialization? And how the hell does that qualify her as some kind of medical &/or mental health “expert”, because that’s what she’s using the Ph.D. to imply in everything I read about her? I did a comprehensive search for dear Peggy’s CV under various criteria, and several pages of several searches never turned up just what that Ph.D. was in. Every site I hit, ALL of them of the forced-birther cult variety, neglected to add this information. There were many, many “accomplishments” listed, but they were all of the self-serving forced-birth variety. Like that glowing testimonial from Frank Pervert’s best buddy, that liar Alveda King, the disowned member of the King family.

            It was very obvious from the information, provided on the sites YOU frequent, that dear Peggy has fertility challenges, and has channeled her frustration into acting out on innocent citizens to erase their civil, human and Constitutional rights. I was completely accurate in my assessment.

          • goatini

            But since *every* source I found on several pages of search results for this particular individual was flowery embellishment of her CV on forced-birth propaganda sites, it seems that said propagandists weren’t exactly forthcoming with exactly what discipline that Ph.D. was in. So you’ll have to get with them about their “sour grapes” on that specialization.

            My original assessment is correct: Peggy is a non-medical doctor who was so bitter about her own fertility issues that she’s spent the last 40+ years as an enemy to female US citizens’ civil rights, acting out her anger on innocent citizens in a battle to erase their civil, human and Constitutional rights. And she uses cult isolation techniques in order to groom her victims.

          • Suba gunawardana

            How does the PhD matter for the topic at hand if it was in English (or any non-medical field)?

          • P. McCoy

            Yes and don’t forget Aryan as well-blondes and red heads preferred.

          • prolifemama

            Are you all seriously supporting abortion as the “solution” to the hardships encountered by parents of disabled children? Is it actually being proposed that, rather than fight for the rights
            of every single human being regardless of their needs, we should kill those human beings whose care will be, at minimum, a challenge for us? That only ‘perfect’ babies will be permitted to continue living?

            Doesn’t this ‘plan’ enable those who devalue ‘imperfect’ human beings to expand their vitriolic mindset until no one is safe from being judged imperfect and then treated accordingly?

            Look at the challenges such people already confront every hour, every day. Isn’t their courage and determination in the face of
            such odds a call to us to help and protect them from deadly prejudice?

            What does the abortion mentality do to us as human beings?

          • dudebro

            It gives people the option to accept or deny a substantial and potential life destroying burden. Bringing a disabled child into the world only to neglect it would be cruel beyond all belief. Abortion is humane

          • prolifemama

            Abortion doesn’t prevent a disabled child from being brought into the world, nor ‘cure’ the disability. Abortion ends the life of that child before s/he can be born.

            Abortion spares us the work of caring for the child, true – but is that how we as humane human beings should deal with one another? Do we advocate killing those who need more from us than we’re usually required to put out?

          • dudebro

            Yes, abortion prevents a child from being born. Because born = suffering. It’s good to prevent suffering.

          • prolifemama

            Yes, it is best to prevent suffering, but killing someone to spare them suffering is unnecessary. Suffering, while not always preventable, can be alleviated. Such alleviation will probably call a person out of his/her comfort zone.

          • goatini

            Just more fetishizing of pain and sorrow as something desirable to “offer up”.

            If we want to go down the road of “God never gives you more than you can handle”, I’m also thinking that God’s grace in modern medical science is telling you that what used to be inescapable tragedies no longer need to be taken up.

          • dudebro

            Not all suffering can be alleviated. You are living in fantasy world.

          • goatini

            Again:

            Thanks to modern medical science and ever more accurate prenatal testing and diagnoses, a pregnant woman can now decide to try again for a healthy pregnancy in the case of a negative prenatal diagnosis. There are more than enough dangers in life that can result in actual born persons – children and adults – becoming mentally and/or physically disabled. There is no lack of opportunity for the families of actual born persons to need “courage and determination” to overcome obstacles, disabilities and handicaps.

          • goatini

            First, let’s make it clear that the only “vitriolic mindset” here is YOUR raging hatred for women’s civil and human rights.

            Second, the offense here is YOUR hyperbolic anti-woman and anti-family mindset.

            Thanks to modern medical science and ever more accurate prenatal testing and diagnoses, a pregnant woman can now decide to try again for a healthy pregnancy in the case of a negative prenatal diagnosis. There are more than enough dangers in life that can result in actual born persons – children and adults – becoming mentally and/or physically disabled. There is no lack of opportunity for the families of actual born persons to need “courage and determination” to overcome obstacles, disabilities and handicaps.

            I blame the Catholic mindset of the fetishizing of pain and sorrow as something desirable to “offer up” – I especially remember the advice given to wives with alcoholic and/or abusive husbands to suffer in silence and “offer it up”. The (fundamentalist) Catholics love their martyrs – and “ideal womanhood” in the Church was just one long martyrdom of too many children and not enough resources.

            Suggest to the sane readers of this article to check out Fr Peter Daly’s blog in today’s National Catholic Reporter. Fr Daly asks important questions in a compassionate way, instead of just bloviating the Vatican party line. “We don’t seem to have a good answer for the complex ethical struggles that beset our people. Our teaching, at times, seems inadequate. Even worse: At times, it seems insensitive. But we just continue on as before.”

          • fiona64

            You’re the one who doesn’t get out much. CPCs don’t do *shit* except try to get white women to surrender infants for adoption.

          • StealthGaytheist

            Sure they do. The one in my town solicits donations from local citizens and businesses, then makes a big to-do about “donating” things to pregnant women and new mothers. For example, one week the local paper had a blurb about how they were asking for donations of baby clothes. A few weeks later there was a big article about how wonderful they were for donating baby clothes to pregnant women and new mothers. I guess we were expected to forget that just last week the chocolate ration had been 30 grams, and probably many people did.

          • prolifemama

            What in the world is wrong with soliciting donations, then distributing the goods to those who need them?

            How many folks have the time or know-how to seek out pregnant strangers in need? It’s much more efficient to be able to take their donations to one location, where they’re sorted, stored, then given out to those who need them.

            The big “to-do” you cattily cite is only the pregnancy center letting people know where they can obtain said donations, the center’s hours, etc.

          • StealthGaytheist

            The problem is the center pretends they’re being generous and making all of these donations when all they’re doing is regifting what the town’s citizens and businesses actually donated. They’re not “letting people know where they can get items” when the “giveaway” has already been done. They’re merely stoking their own egos.

            CPCs don’t actually care about women, only about controlling them. That’s why they offer only one option (stay pregnant and give birth, no matter what the consequences), and they use deception, guilt, harassment and other underhanded means to achieve that end. People who actually care about women support whatever choice they make.

          • prolifemama

            What about organized drops of medicine, clothing, food, water, shelter, etc., that are made during natural disasters? Should the newly-homeless, injured, and sick wander from donor to donor, begging for what they need instead? You must really hate pregnant women who DON’T want to abort, and only like the ones who want their babies killed.

            People who actually care about women support whatever choice they make.

            Really? If a pregnant woman’s choice is to commit suicide, or get dead-drunk and go driving on the freeway, or set herself aflame, would someone who ‘actually cares’ about her, let her make such a “choice”?

          • StealthGaytheist

            I don’t hate pregnant wonen, I hate deceptive busybodies who lie to them to push an antichoice agenda on them.

            “Really? If a pregnant woman’s choice is to commit suicide, or get dead-drunk and go driving on the freeway, or set herself aflame, would someone who ‘actually cares’ about her, let her make such a “choice”?”

            Now you’re just being stupid.

          • prolifemama

            Now you’re just being stupid.
            Nope, just asking you to qualify your statements.

          • StealthGaytheist

            I didn’t comment on your first paragraph because it’s just more of your digressive, derailing stupidity.

            People who truly care about women don’t lie to them, and give them more choices than “stay pregnant no matter what the consequences”. Women deserve so much better than ” be a broodsow, because Jesus”.

          • prolifemama

            I think you declined to comment because you’re embarrassed by the obvious comparison made.
            And it seems your last sentence above was truncated…you ended with your thought unfinished… care to complete it?

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not incomplete.

          • StealthGaytheist

            You think wrong, about a lot.

          • goatini

            If I do not want to be pregnant, safe and legal pregnancy termination is THE BEST OPTION.

            It disgusts me to see posts that assert that gestational slavery is “so much better” than getting one’s life back after a safe, legal pregnancy termination. Only sickos would even say such a thing.

          • prolifemama

            Only someone filled with an incredible self-loathing would define pregnancy as “gestational slavery.”

            Every abortion, whether legal or illegal, carries with it every risk abortion poses to women. You who deny this, and proclaim that abortion is safe simply because it’s legal, endanger women’s lives with propaganda that is slanted to support your hate-driven agenda.

          • goatini

            FORCED pregnancy AGAINST ONE’S WILL in the case of an UNWANTED pregnancy IS gestational slavery. Which YOU and your evil forced-birther cabal advocate for.

            Safe, legal pregnancy termination is one of the SAFEST minor outpatient procedures extant in modern medical practice. FACT. There IS no such thing as “post abortion syndrome”, as affirmed by the American Psychiatric Association – FACT.

            And the “self-loathing” person here with a “hate-driven agenda” and “slanted propaganda” is YOU. You are clearly a deliberately malicious propagandist for the theocratic and misogynistic gestational slavery syndicate.

          • prolifemama

            Pregnancy is a natural physiological process. It is not imposed upon women, but part of our natural bodily functioning. While problems can occur, including life-threatening ones, medicine is sufficiently advanced that most women can receive care throughout their pregnancies that safeguards their health and that of their children.
            When a woman is pregnant, she isn’t pregnant with a “pregnancy” but with her daughter or son.
            You, dear goatini, can claim your statements are “FACT” but that does not make them facts. Denying the real facts – that legal abortion carries higher risks for women than childbirth, and that Post Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS) does exist, and many post-abortive women suffer with it, especially as their pro-abort sisters deny these women’s real pain which results directly from their abortions. Women with PASS include even those who were fully prepared to undergo their abortions, but realized too late – with no outside source telling them so – that far from their pregnancy being simply “terminated,” their daughter or son was directly killed by their abortion.

          • goatini

            No such thing as Post Abortive Stress Syndrome. The American Psychiatric Association deals in facts.

            YOU deal in malicious, deliberate LIES, and your posts are dripping with hatred of America and of its citizens’ inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice.

            And YOU don’t love anything except your putrid fake “piety”.

          • fiona64

            medicine is sufficiently advanced that most women can receive care
            throughout their pregnancies that safeguards their health and that of
            their children.

            Yet another lie. The US is #50 in maternal mortality, and getting worse. Again, this information has been provided to you repeatedly. Not all problem pregnancies have happy endings. Not even *most* problem pregnancies have happy endings. Stop with the lies.

          • dudebro

            Like Drew saying that pregnancy has no risks because every risk can be predicted and managed. Except for the 650 women who die every year. But eh, people make mistakes, right?

          • fiona64

            Drew’s blase assertion that women dying of pregnancy-related complications is no big deal because people make mistakes temporarily induced homicidal rage in me. No joke.

          • dudebro

            I felt the same. He is an utter piece of shit.

          • Arekushieru

            So fetuses dying as a result of an abortion is fine because PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. Logic. Antis have none.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            “Would you drive her to the OB/Gyn every month, then every week? To the hospital? Would you offer to babysit her other children so she could continue working as long as she was able? Would you find her housing, medical care, whatever she needed so that abortion didn’t look to her like her only possible choice?”

            All of the above is laudable, but IS NOT ENOUGH if the pregnant woman is going deliver a child with severe disabilities like Down Syndrome or autism. Would you willing pay for the ongoing weekly therapy lessons required for the disabled child in occupational, speech, physical and behavoral therapy if insurance refuses cover the expenses? Would you be wiling to cover the cost for 18 years, year in and year out?

            Will you find the child gainful and meaningful employment when they age out of school, no longer cute and cherubic, unable to attend college? Will you cover the cost of caregivers when the parents need respite care? Will you cover the cost of this child living in a high quality group home when the parents pass away?

            The financial cost of raising children with severe disabilities needs to be disclosed to prospective parents. The fact is, most “Pregnancy Decision Health Centers” tend to minimize these very real costs, not to mention the emotional toll it takes for some parents.

            Getting to the birth is only the first step. Most parents who have the foresight to think in the long term for raising severely disabled kids know that the antepartum medical, babysitting, housing, employment needs are a drop in the bucket when compared to the lifetime care of raising a disabled child. You want to convince me to raise such a child? Then convince me first that YOU can guarantee that yearly cost for therapy, employment, independent living expense under supervised conditions, required for a disabled child to live to her/her fullest potential. Convince me that the mother who agrees to raise such a child can also fulfill HER own dreams as a unique individual, separate from her child. I’ll wait.

            You quoted Emily Kingsley’s story about a trip to Holland.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Holland

            Holland may have tulips and windmills, but for some people, it will never measure up to Italian pizza, Murano glass, the leaning tower of Pisa, and Venetian gondolas.

          • Sunny

            Again, you really need to be checked for delusions, paranoid & non specific. Your “facts” are not facts. Your opinions are not facts. Please share a single legitimate source that says a full term pregnancy & delivery is less dangerous than an abortion.

            Please, do tell, how medical advances could have saved me when I was dying due to an ectopic pregnancy, oh wise one? I can’t wait to hear that gem.

            The pregnancy was very much wanted & very much impossible to continue. Or do you have “facts” to the contrary?

          • someone45

            Forced pregnancy IS slavery. You seem to not understand that you would be forcing a woman to use her body against her will and she would get nothing out of it.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            The anti-choice people like to think all pregnant females have to do is to”wait” for the baby to pop out, and pregnancy complications like pre-eclampsia are just temporary. And that once the special snowflake is born, the mother will forget about the pregnancy complications.

            Being pregnant is NOT fun. It can be torture if the pregnant woman does NOT really want to remain pregnant, and see the fetus as a barrier to her dreams and aspirations for her future.

          • dudebro

            They also say that pregnancy complications can be discounted, because pregnancy in its natural state is like breathing or ‘having teeth’.

            If you have spent any time reading SPL you will find the ‘pregnancy is natural and therefore the default state of women’ meme in abundance.

          • Ramanusia

            They also have some propaganda going around that all pregnancy complications are treatable somehow and that termination must never ever be considered, because of the “magic” of modern medicine.

          • Arekushieru

            But it’s nachurel! If it’s natural, why are they using unnatural means to treat it? Oops, someone’s brain has exited the building, but not surprising from most antis, I would agree.

          • Wendy Banks

            Absolutely, without medical care, I would died in the first three months with my daughter. I couldn’t even hold down water. The second time I was hospitalized, it took them 45 minutes to find a vein.They were talking about a subclavicular IV before a old hand nurse found a good vein.

          • prolifemama

            Being pregnant is a TON of fun for many of us!
            But women with difficult pregnancies deserve to have happy outcomes just as we without morning sickness, et. al., do.
            If a woman sees her unborn baby as a barrier to her dreams and aspirations, she is nearly always caught between the two – abortion is very, very rarely a pregnant woman’s ‘default.’
            When she learns from dedicated prolifers that she can have both, and not merely survive, but thrive, she feels in control of her life again, and is unbelievably grateful that neither her child’s life nor hers had to be sacrificed.
            It is tragic that on this website, women especially harbor such a deep hatred of self, of children – unborn or born – of men, of those who would help a pregnant mother in crisis.

          • dudebro

            Oh please. Pregnancy is not the default state of women. Not being pregnant your entire life is kind of a good thing

          • goatini

            The only one with a “deep hatred” here is YOU, a deep hatred for America and for the inalienable rights of its citizens, a deep hatred for women as fully actualized persons participating fully in society as full equals to males. Most of the women posting here have children, and only a malicious, hate-filled theocratic misogynist could possibly interpret the deep desire to protect the rights and the dignity of female citizens as “hatred” of ANYONE or ANYTHING – except those un-American enemies who HATE those rights and that dignity.

            The vast majority of women with unwanted pregnancies want a safe, legal pregnancy termination – FACT. And coercing a woman with an unwanted pregnancy into gestational slavery will cause NOTHING to “thrive” – except the pockets that get lined with the big 5-figure payoffs at the sale of the product.

            We will all keep calling out your hate-filled agenda of theocratic misogynistic LIES for as long as you’re going to post them here. We are American patriots who respect the rights and dignity of our fellow citizens, and who will continue to fight the malicious lying propaganda of the enemy.

          • Ramanusia

            For women with problem pregnancies, the “happy outcome” is to terminate so that they’re healthy enough and alive enough to try again. Do they not “deserve” the “happy outcome” of staying alive despite carrying a pregnancy that has no chance of survival, or must they die so that they can “enjoy” their suffering. 800 women die every single day due to pregnancy, they’re not having tons of fun, they’re dying. What lies will you dedicated anti-truthers tell these women to justify the suffering and death you wish them to “enjoy”? How is she in control of her life when you lie to her, deny her medical care, and sentence her to death because you’re so “dedicated” to lying to her and denying facts and reality? How is denying her medical information granting her anything? What qualifies you dedicated anti-choicers to say anything? Where is your medical degree and what makes you think that dedicating yourself to propaganda and lies somehow makes you an expert in a field you consistently display absolute and criminal ignorance of?

            You have no idea why any woman choose abortion, so all these nonsensical assumptions about what a “default” is, is pure stupidity.

            The tragedy is that you don’t understand that the hatred of children, of women and of self is entirely coming from inside of yourself, you’re not helping anyone in crisis by lying to them or forcing them to gestate against their will, against medical judgement and in order to extend the suffering of children who are so deformed and diseased that carrying to term does nothing but inflict suffering on all concerned. Why do you love suffering and death so much, and why do you hate women, men and sick babies so much that the thought of their suffering pleases you so?

            Actually, most anti-choicers (you are soooooo not pro-life) dismiss the difficulties and medical realities that women face with every breath, your own posts show you do this as well. Do you pay attention to what you do chant? You have no idea what these women are going through and in utter ignorance and in total sadistic fashion, you start accusing women of killing their child, when they’re forced to terminate their much wanted pregnancies. You chant it, you screech it, you go out of your way to make an already traumatic time for her into a greater hell. You are not about reality, positivity or support, the videos of your assaults on these women tell the truth about what you’re really about and how you go about achieving your political ends. Your anti-life fantasy shows you that you don’t care about what women want or why they’re forced to make the decisions they must, you’re just about harassing, humiliating and torturing them either on the sidewalks or through your lying politicians.

            You’re not offering real help and no woman who has seen a qualified medical professional thinks that abortion is her only choice, unlike the fradulent fake clinics, doctors and planned parenthood fully inform a woman of her choices. ALL of her choices, without bias, without judgment and without needing to lie to them or abuse them. This is direct opposition to the pregnancy centers that prey on women with propaganda and lies told to them by unqualified people who have literally no knowledge of science, medicine or the truth.

          • JamieHaman

            Standing Ovation!

          • Sunny

            Points points points! You win the Internet!

          • Arekushieru

            And it is YOUR ilk that provides VERY LITTLE of that help. It tends to be the Pro-CHOICE side that does that. Imagine THAT. It is also YOUR political representatives that cut supports to impoverished women who actually WANT to keep their pregnancies and THEN you turn around and wonder why women may feel abortion is their only option? I’m talking about TANF, WIC, SNAP, etc… of COURSE. Why do poor women have to depend on the ‘kindness’ of strangers, while wealthier women can take advantage of all the supports they need without having to worry about such an unstable source to supplement them? See, it’s not US who hates poor women, but ANTI-choicers. Oops.

            As Ramanusia said, Pro-Choice provides women with ALL choices, YOU are merely projecting the truth about YOUR movement onto others. YOU want to have only one goal, and that is gestation. Essentially chanting kill the woman, KILL the WOMAN.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I have yet to encounter any pro-choicer who chants “Kill the kid” .

          • fiona64

            PLM has a very active fantasy life, as do so many of her ilk.

          • goatini

            Well, she’s very “religious”, so myth and superstition are the distorted lenses of her worldview.

          • JamieHaman

            Forced birthers minimizes the difficulties by claiming childbirth is natural. By claiming the bond between mother and child is so close, that the mother SHOULD automatically risk her life, or permanent damage to the body to carry and deliver that child.
            Guess what? Cancer has human DNA, grows and is natural too. Don’t want cancer? It’s natural. Pregnancy can be just as fatal as cancer.

          • dudebro

            Yes, she should die for that zygote

            There was a narcissistic little snowflake on SPL the other day who basically told us that her mother was a selfish pos when the woman dared to consider abortion when confronted with eclampsia. Because any pregnant woman not willing to die/risk disability for a precious fetus does NOT deserve to be a parent. No, really.

          • JamieHaman

            omg. If so many of “these women” who are not willing to die from eclampsia, etc, why in the world would the forced birthers want them to have children? Since so clearly they are not “parent material”?

          • fiona64

            Sorry; barfing my guts out with hyperemesis gravidarum does not qualify as “tons of fun” in my book.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, she did throw you a little scrap. You deserved to ‘have a happy outcome.’ As opposed to your condition forcing a ‘not happy’ outcome, I guess.

          • ansuz

            Pablum.

            1. What is the right choice for you is not the right choice for everyone.
            2. Who are you to tell us what we’re thinking? (and who are you to

            Ah, fuck it, I’m going to sleep.

          • Sunny

            I haven’t read a single comment that fits your description of “self-hating”, “children-hating” or “men-hating”. If you have you may need to seek help. The psychological term used for seeing things that aren’t really there is delusional. & I have never in my life heard a pro-choice advocate yelling “kill kill kill”. Either you are warped or you’re using hyperbole & purposely being misleading. Pro-choice is exactly that; for choice. That includes every choice.

          • StealthGaytheist

            Abortion is 14X safer than pregnancy, which kills 1,000 women/day.

            And using someone’s body against their will is slavery.

          • prolifemama

            The so-called ‘study’ that found abortion safer than childbirth was fatally flawed, as David Grimes and Elizabeth Raymond are both avowed pro-aborts. Big surprise that the “study” was positive toward abortion.
            How could a surgical procedure (abortion) be safer than what is primarily a normal physiological process?

          • dudebro

            Naturalistic fallacy.

          • prolifemama

            do any research on the “study,” though?
            no…probably not.

          • dudebro

            Naturalistic fallacy.

            Natural does not mean inherently better.

            And not all abortions = surgery. Early term = medicinal, where the embryo is expelled.

            And the stats don’t lie. More women die from pregnancy than from abortion.

          • Ramanusia

            Did you? We know you didn’t, or you’d have bothered with refuting any portion of it. The fact that you resort to ad hominems against the author show that you didn’t do any research at all, not into the study or even the basics of human physiology.

          • StealthGaytheist

            Just because something is a “normal physiological process” that doesn’t make it healthy or safe. Pregnancy and childbirth kill 1,000 women/day.

          • goatini

            ANY ethical physician MUST be pro-choice. Anything else is irresponsible, depraved disregard for the welfare of patients.

          • Ramanusia

            First of all, no such thing as a “pro-abort”. Second, when you make personal attacks against the authors but can’t dredge up a single lucid argument about why a study is flawed, it is YOU that is fatally flawed.

            What’s wrong, no facts or data you can use to argue against a study that proves you to be so very wrong?

            Abortion is not always surgical, and pregnancy is not a “normal physiological process”, it’s quite literally a deviation from the norm, and the vast breadth of human history shows just how deadly pregnancy is for women. Big surprise that avowed pro-deaths like yourself ignore common sense, history and all of reality to put forward your ignorant lies and propaganda about a process you literally know nothing about. Squeezing out a few kids does not qualify you to discuss the scientific and medical realities of pregnancy.

            There are reams of texts to teach you why your ignorant claims are incorrect, but they require you to eject the delusions you have and learn some basic science.

          • Arekushieru

            “and pregnancy is not a “normal physiological process”, it’s quite literally a deviation from the norm,” In more ways than one. Meaning in the physiological AND evolutionary sense.

          • Arekushieru

            They’re Pro-Choice not ‘Pro-Aborts’. Stop lying for Jesus. I ASSure he doesn’t appreciate it.

          • dudebro

            Wb Are. Missed you!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Next you’ll say that pregnancy is not a medical condition, and that it’s just like breathing or something.

          • dudebro

            I like how drew compared pregnancy to having teeth.

            Anyways, his own allies at SPL contradicted him with a post about pregnancy and marathon running. They checked with a doctor before running 24 miles at 34 weeks gestation. Now, why check with a doctor if pregnancy is a woman’s default state?

          • JamieHaman

            What study? I posted links to the CDC which COUNTS deaths, not any study.

            The counted maternal deaths, due to abortion; 12, (2008) counted maternal deaths, due to childbirth; annual average: 650
            How is surgery safer than cancer? Another normal physiological process?

            Let me count the ways.

          • dudebro

            The CDC is a liberal conspiracy!

          • JamieHaman

            Of course it is, and the numbers come from the 2nd to the last year of FPOTUS G.W. Bush’s term in office. You know that means really really liberal. ;)

          • Sunny

            An abortion, provided by a qualified medical doctor, is no more dangerous than an average mole removal. It’s no different than a D&C after a miscarriage except you get cool drugs & are completely knocked out for the latter. The medical procedure is no different.

            Your argument fell apart when youyou used the term “pro-abortion”. I have yet to meet anyone who is pro-abortion. Pro-choice, yes. What you said, not so much.

            Really, I’m curious, where on earth do you find such obviously ridiculous sources to back up your opinion?

          • dudebro

            I’d rather kill myself than be forced to gestate. I value my bodily autonomy most of all. Don’t tell me that I suffer from self loathing because I don’t want anything inside my body without my permission.

          • prolifemama

            Um, “dudebro”, your username suggests you are a human being of the male persuasion.
            If this is the case, then no matter the level of ‘force’, you would never be capable of being pregnant/giving birth/being a … mother.
            As for not wanting anything inside your body without your permission, how about the thousands of dust motes you inhale while waiting for the bus?

          • dudebro
          • prolifemama

            I wouldn’t click on any link you’d send, even with a hazmat suit…

          • dudebro

            Why? Do pro choice links have cooties or something?

            Grow up.

          • dudebro

            And your passive aggressive, patronizing, condescending attitude is duly noted.

            You should work on being civil. It makes for a better impression.

          • prolifemama

            Around here, dudebro, being civil gets you a kick in the teeth.
            And “cooties” is what you call it?
            Thank you, no. I’ll keep my computer squeaky-clean.

          • dudebro

            Its a picture of a face mask from an online vendor. The kind that people wear in Japan so they avoid inhaling pollution.

            And yes. You are suggesting that because in pro choice that all of my links have to be infected with viruses.

            How insulting. Really. Your sneering behavior is really uncalled for.

          • fiona64

            Heh. It’s a de facto admission that PLM hasn’t bothered to look at any of the factual citations that debunk her bullshit.

          • dudebro

            You nailed it.

            Doesn’t look like she is interested in honest debate.

          • goatini

            //being civil gets you a kick in the teeth//

            How would *you* know??

          • fiona64

            Thanks, BTW, for admitting that you have not bothered to examine any of the facts and data presented to you. Wouldn’t want anything to get in the way of your pretty set of CPC “thoughts for the day,” now, would you?

          • Ramanusia

            Um, actually,since a zygote merely requires a blood source and some room to grow he certainly can be violated and impregnated against his will.

            What does your dust mote tangent have to do with anything? Or are you trying to say that you would be just fine if some growing human thing inserted itself inside your body, sucking the vitality from your blood and threatening your life or your health? You antis insist that these foreign human cells are “persons”, which apparently can force their way into your body and do whatever they like, like the rapists whose rights you promote, right?

            Why do yo hate women and love rapists so?

          • Arekushieru

            Although, male pregnancy has not been successful by any means, and in order for male pregnancy it would most likely be by choice, initially, anyways, because PIV sex just wouldn’t cut it. For the most part, though, right on!

          • Ramanusia

            It’s theoretical :-) And, one can theoretically render a male unconscious and implant without consent, the point is that it’s possible.

          • Arekushieru

            My point was that it’s theoretical not practical. It is the practical, daily lives of women that we are talking about, right now, right?

          • fiona64

            Um, AntiChoiceMama? Don’t show your ass so much, okay? I happen to know that a) DudeBro is female and b) why she chose the name.

          • dudebro
          • fiona64

            So, let’s see. Here, she claims she’s not religious … there she says that the Church speaks “the word of God” about homosexual sin (this despite the fact that the word in question, toevah, has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with ritual impurity … and to say nothing of the fact that sexual orientation was not understood then as it is now).

            So, on top of being a forced-birther (and now we know why, since she’s Catholic …), she’s a homophobic bigot. Got it.

            I’ve said for decades that if you scratch a homophobe, a misogynist will bleed. It’s all about rigid gender roles with these types.

          • Sunny

            I have rarely appreciated a comment as much as this one. I need to copy it to add it to my arsenal.

            “I’ve said for decades that if you scratch a homophobe, a misogynist will bleed.”

            Few truer words have ever been spoken.

          • L-dan

            I have thousands of cilia tirelessly working to expel those dust motes. In fact, I refuse to smoke because I feel so strongly that those motes should be kicked out of my lungs, and smoking weakens and kills those hard-working cilia.

            So, should I add pro-smoking to your pro-life label since you seem to believe that we don’t have a right to decide what goes on in our own bodies?

          • Liz

            So, you support those who need organ transplants forcing other American citizens to provide those organs, even if it’s against their will? That’s what a forced pregnancy and birth is. Please let us know when you’ve written your letter stating this position to your state and federal legislators.

          • JamieHaman

            It is slavery to be forced to be pregnant. How did you miss seeing that with Amanda Berry, Michelle Knight,, and Gina DeJesus??
            It is so wrong to force abortion, in the case of Michelle Knight, and wrong to force pregnancy in the case of Amanda Berry.
            Not having a choice is what makes it slavery.

          • Ella Warnock

            Let’s not forget that women have ways of ‘shutting that whole thing down.’ So in light of the fact that these girls got pregnant, I’m thinking maybe it wasn’t really rape or kidnapping. Also, if it actually was rape, then they must just give thanks to god as it was his will. Any pregnancy is a gift from god and an unalloyed joy and benefit for any woman. And as the Prophet Santorum intoned, pregnant rape victims have to ‘make the best out of a bad situation.’

            ‘Pro-life,’ brought to you by Akin and Santorum, both of whom have more support than you might imagine and certainly more than is sane.

          • prolifemama

            And the forgotten innocent victims, the babies themselves, is it justice to force them to die?
            Stop pushing the myth that we mothers and our children are natural enemies! We are not! There is no closer relationship in the human family than mother and child. Closer than father/child, sibling/sibling, even closer than husband and wife.
            Neither must has to die so the other can live.

          • dudebro

            Nature pits the unborn against women
            http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/09/prenatal-competition.html

            Conflict over resources. Something called genomic imprinting. I suggest you do some reading instead of spouting sentimental naturalistic fallacies.

          • Ella Warnock

            “Haig believes preeclampsia results from a fetal attempt to amass more resources in conditions of nutritional stress. When problems in placentation, or the presence of more than one fetus, interfere with adequate nutrition, the placenta produces excess amounts of a protein, sFlt1, that damages the mother’s endothelium (the lining of the blood vessels), causing the vessels to constrict. Because “things take the path of least resistance,” Haig explains, more blood then begins to flow toward the placenta and away from the maternal tissues. In the worst cases, maternal tissues are literally starved of oxygen, causing kidney failure, liver failure, or cerebral hemorrhage.”

            But he’s only a professor of organismic and evolutionary biology, so it’s clear he’s probably not nearly as qualified as your average pro-lie armchair ‘embryologist.’

            Very interesting, thanks for the link.

          • dudebro

            yep. There is no such thing as a ‘normal pregnancy’ designed by god/nature. There is such a thing as a pregnancy where, luckily, the fetus and woman’s processes cancel each other out – where both survive, hopefully, without permanent disability or injury.

            But a ‘default’ pregnancy does not exist.

          • goatini

            Anti-American theocratic misogynists are the natural enemies of citizens who respect the rights of their fellow citizens.

            Never before has the need been so urgent for proud, patriotic American citizens to honor and protect a female US citizen’s civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice, from vicious attacks by theocratic misogynistic enemies that hate Americans and their freedoms.

            Especially against those enemies who LIE, like the above vicious viper’s post, that safe, legal pregnancy termination is NEVER needed to save the life of the woman – who is the ONLY patient, the ONLY citizen, the ONLY person, and the ONLY entity with rights in the equation. That’s pure, bitter hate to even posit such a ludicrous thought. Ask Sr Margaret McBride, who put her entire career and faith on the line to save a woman’s life. The vicious viper who posted the above garbage would LET THAT WOMAN DIE. Inexcusable.

          • Ramanusia

            No baby dies in an abortion. And apparently it is justice to force a woman who has been raped to continue to be raped by the fetuses, who are as unwelcome as their rapist fathers.

            Stop pushing the myth that rape is somehow anything but rape and that denying someone their rights to autonomy is somehow not the textbook definition of slavery.

            The immunology shows pretty clearly that mothers are fetuses they gestate are indeed “natural enemies”.

            What are you snorting that you think that in problem pregnancies in which the mother’s life is in danger that neither has to die so the other can live?

            Remember when you and your pro-death squad killed Savita Halappanavar? How did killing her save the dying fetus inside her?

            Why must you sentence the woman to death in every case because you can’t figure out the simple medical facts surrounding pregnancy because your head has been stuffed with so many lies and so much propaganda that you’re literally unable to think coherently?

          • Arekushieru

            So, where’s your outcry, MISOGYNIST, for a person who has Down’s Syndrome being killed after they raped someone? I ASSure you that person was ;forced to die’ just like your innocent ‘baby’ was during an abortion. Oops.

            ASSuming that all women must have this kind of magical connection with their offspring, is simply misogyny, as well as a PRODUCT of same, btw. Thanks for proving it, AS usual.

          • JamieHaman

            No one pushes the myth that mothers and children are natural enemies. No sane person insists that women have abortions. What I want, what millions of women want is the freedom to decide if a pregnancy and a born child are responsibilities we are prepared to handle at any particular time in our lives.
            Children must be raised, and that doesn’t stop when they are 18. Loving parents don’t stop loving when their child is grown.
            Proud mother and (grandmother) of two here,
            Unwanted unwelcome children? Their lives are a lot harder than the lives of the wanted, welcomed children.
            You say there is no closer relationship in the human family than mother and child.
            I suggest you look at the number of cases where the mother has done horrific things to her unwanted child.
            Look at the suffering that those children went through, and tell me if there is no closer bond.
            Adoption? Personal experience that every single adopted child I have ever met, and from writing on line, that when a child, adult or not, finds out they have been adopted, they freak out. It isn’t “brief” either. Some carry the pain, and anger for years, not a single one believing it was for the “best”, even if they do find it out later, by meeting the birth mother who gave them away.
            Btw, if your bond is closer to your child, than the father of that child,(assuming you married him first), you have broken your marriage vows. You know the one, “To love, honor, and cherish above ALL others, so help me God.”

          • lady_black

            Exactly. My children are grown with lives of their own now and I’m very proud of them. But my relationship with my husband always came first. I wanted to still have a marriage after my kids left to have their own lives. So my marriage was always the center of my life.

          • redlemon

            I tell my husband that I love my daughter because she is my daughter. She didn’t ask to be brought into this world and she deserves all the love I can give. However, at the end of the day, we’re raising her to go off on her own and I’ll still be with him at the end. I chose him. I choose him everyday. I find that to take so much more love. Our relationship is what made the child in the first place, so putting it on second burner is not an option.

          • catseye

            Anything that INVADES MY BODY AGSAINST MY WILL is NOT “innocent.” It is in fact a RAPIST, and I WILL defend myself.

          • lady_black

            While children require a lot of attention because they are needy for a long period of time, the closest relationship should be between husband and wife. At least if you’re smart enough to realize that your kids are going to grow up and have lives of their own. Hopefully you have made your relationship with your spouse the center of the family, or you may not HAVE much of a marriage when the kids are gone.

          • fiona64

            There’s something vaguely … Electra/Oedipal … about her assertion that There is no closer relationship in the human family than mother and child. It seriously squicks me out.

          • Ella Warnock

            My closest relationship has been with my husband. My mother and I were two very different people who happened to share some DNA, and not that much else. I find that assertion squicky, too.

          • dudebro

            Hey LB, I am probably wrong about the uterus JUST being a container on SPL, but I am trying to simplify things to get a point across.

            If you see me say something technicaly wrong, it’s usually on purpose.

          • lady_black

            The uterus IS basically a container, dudebro. It’s a hollow, sterile, muscular organ where normal pregnancies (non-ectopic) develop, and it’s muscular contractions assist in forcing the fetus out in either miscarriage or birth.

          • dudebro

            Sweet.

            Leadingedge is an asshat. Thinks he can deny the naturalistic fallacy by phrasing his argument creatively.

          • Sunny

            Plus you are doing your child a great disservice by not demonstrating what a healthy relationship is meant to be & look like. If you don’t put your spouse before others, including children, they have no idea what is acceptable to expect in future relationships. A recipe for disaster. Trust me, I know.

            If you want to be all strictly biblical, the Bible states in multiple places that the 1st priority should be your relationship with God. The next, your spouse. Then your children.

          • Sunny

            Again, we have given you very real & legitimate examples that your theory that “Neither must has [sic] to die so the other can live.” is BS. Not rational. Not logical. Factually inaccurate.

            Once again, when I had an ectopic pregnancy & lost over half my blood volume internally & required 3 blood transfusions after the removal of my fallopian tube at the last possible minute, how is it that “neither must die”?

            Actually I’ll agree with you to an extent. The embryo didn’t die because, you know, it was an embryo & I was a living breathing human being. So really, what choice was there to make?

            Oh never mind. You’ll just respond with more gibberish. You are a lost cause. Keep spewing your lies.

          • Ramanusia

            She, like the anti-choicers are by default pro-rape.

          • fiona64

            The data demonstrating the dangers of gestation vs. abortion has been shown to you repeatedly. I am only one of the many women here who has talked about life-threatening pregnancies we have *personally experienced.* You need to seriously STFU.

          • redlemon

            Every pregnancy, whether legal or illegal, carries with it every risk pregnancy poses to women. You who deny this, and proclaim that pregnancy
            is safe simply because it’s legal, endanger women’s lives with
            propaganda that is slanted to support your hate-driven agenda.

            Fixed that for you. For the record, for me, pregnancy carries a MUCH higher risk of problems then abortion ever will.

          • prolifemama

            so you can cut-and-paste. whee.
            But your comment doesn’t make sense. Not every pregnancy is equally risky to every pregnant woman.
            Women who don’t develop gestational diabetes have a lower risk of requiring a C-section.
            Women who are not hypertensive…(see lower C-section risk, etc.)
            Women who don’t do illegal drugs don’t risk their children’s lives with prenatal addiction and postnatal withdrawal.
            Women who don’t smoke don’t risk losing their children to SIDS.
            Women who are not promiscuous don’t risk contracting STDs and subsequently passing them on to their unborn children.
            I am sorry that pregnancy puts you at risk. However, I sincerely doubt it puts you more at risk than even a legal abortion. A dedicated OB/Gyn beats Kermit Gosnell every single day of the week. And there are more KGs under the radar than anyone dreams.

          • goatini

            What an dishonest, amoral, ugly piece of work this vicious little gestational slaver is. Unable to post anything but bald-faced lies, and when she can’t actually disprove FACTS, she’ll spew her ridiculous “sincere doubts” about FACTS.

            The FACTS are that ANY safe, legal pregnancy termination is at least 13X SAFER than ANY full-term pregnancy. And the FACTS also are that ANY “dedicated OB/Gyn” must necessarily be quite skilled in safe, legal pregnancy termination – and those that are not are simply unqualified in their area of specialization.

            The FACTS are that Gosnell is a criminal, and was tried, convicted and imprisoned for his crimes – and that Gosnell no more represents reproductive health physicians than Conrad Murray represents cardiologists.

            That rotten little viper keeps spewing her deliberately malicious hate-driven theocratic misogynistic agenda of lies and intentional misinformation. A horrid, horrid person.

          • Ramanusia

            Just because you don’t possess the education or intellect to understand something, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

            The point is that YOU are not qualified to make the judgement, that’s what medical school, residency, fellowship and practice give you the background to do. That’s why it’s utterly moronic to be proclaiming that ALL pregnant women do what YOU tell them to do, while ignoring the doctors who actually evaluate these women and their particular circumstances and have the knowledge, education and experience say.

            This is why the pro-choice stance is the one that is most pro-life, most pro-woman, most pro-healthy pregnancy and pro-ethical stance to take.

            Women who take legal drugs are also putting their children’s lives at risk, so that’s false.
            We don’t know what causes SIDS so your smoking link is pure idiocy.

            Women who are monogamous do indeed risk contracting STDs since it’s not THEIR behavior alone that affects an STD.

            I’m sorry that you are so incredibly ignorant about so many things. I’m sorry that you are so self-hating that you loathe your gender, but I sincerely doubt that any one cares what you think about anything since you’re so obviously clueless.

            Kermit Gosnell was actually a dedicated ob/gyn, he was just a greedy one who took advantage of the climate you anti-choicers afforded him and performed procedures for desperate women whose windows of access you keep attacking. KG is YOUR creature, and given how you and your fellow anti-choicers are going, the KGs will proliferate to service all those desperate women you deny access to safe, legal abortion. KG is your wet dream, he is the reality you wish to shove onto the women of America, to drag us back to the pre-roe days. Every study shows that when you deny access to safe, legal abortion, the abortion rates stays the same while the maternal mortality rate sky rockets. This is what makes you so pro-death, especially since making abortion safe and legal and easy to obtain, along with sex ed and contraceptives consistently lowers the unplanned pregnancy and thus the abortion rate.

            The pro-choice policies are the ones that reduce abortion AND death, the anti-choice stances are the ones that are truly “pro-abort” and pro-death. We don’t care about how may Kermits you dream will operate again, we’d just rather that women be allowed access to contraception and hassle-free access to abortion early on in pregnancy, so that Kermits won’t have anyone to cater to, the anti-choicers really want more Kermits, why is that?

          • Sunny

            Wish there was a “love” button for that comment!

          • redlemon

            I had a very dedicated OB who did everything she could. However, she couldn’t stop or cure post-partum psychosis. Nor could my regular doctor, or my psychologist, or even my old psychiatrist. I was very lucky that I only wanted to kill myself and very lucky that I got to spend a week in a psych ward after 8 months of hiding and torturing myself with psychotic delusions. So abortion is safer for me, because I really don’t want to risk a “next time” and have myself be oh-so-unfortunate in delusions that would perhaps ask me to kill my born daughter or husband. Perhaps you’ve heard of Andrea Yates?

            You’re not the one who gets to choose what is riskier for me. I do. And I’ve already chosen that another pregnancy would be FAR riskier then any abortion.

          • fiona64

            Thank you. She’s very blasé about risks that she expects others to assume. I’ve talked before about how HG almost killed me, and how I won’t go through that again … but she thinks that’s “just a little morning sickness” or some such twaddle. Feh. I am *so* sorry for what you went through, and wholeheartedly concur that no one but you should make the call on gestating future pregnancies.

          • redlemon

            As someone who threw up once during pregnancy, I’m so sorry you had HG! I can’t imagine how horrible HG was for you.

            Right now, I’m a bit testy about someone else explaining to me what risks I should or shouldn’t be taking. I’m currently staring down the possibility of a MS or fibromyalgia diagnosis and the idea of being in this much pain and being pregnant again is disturbing.

          • fiona64

            I understand completely. I had a whole slew of differential diagnoses before receiving a fairly recent diagnosis of Hashimoto’s thyroiditis for what ailed me. As Hashimoto’s is genetic, it’s just one more thing to add to the list of reasons why any tubal ligation failure will be greeted not with “oh, joy!” but “How soon can I terminate this pregnancy?”

          • Sunny

            I’m sorry for your experience as well. In order to understand what going to numerous specialists & getting numerous diagnoses will do to you, you have to experience it. Or be close to someone who has. I’m glad you finally got answers. It was relief, albeit a small one, for me to finally get an answer.

          • Sunny

            I have lupus & fibromyalgia. I hope it turns out to be a different diagnosis. I’ve been dealing with it for probably 15 years & have garnered a little wisdom on the subject of autoimmune & chronic pain syndromes & how to deal with them. If I can help at all please feel free to email me.

            I don’t appreciate anyone telling others, especially someone they don’t even know, what is right for them. Such hubris.

          • Arekushieru

            I have an aunt who was originally diagnosed with lupus and fibromyalgia, then had the lupus diagnosis changed to rheumatoid arthritis.

          • brbr2424

            Andrea and Rusty Yates disregarded their doctor’s strong warnings about having that fifth child. How’s that for pro life, 5 dead children! They bought into that quiver full junk that probably has sent more than one mother around the bend.

          • Sunny

            I’m sorry you had to go through that. I cannot imagine how hard that was for you. The risks are many & varied.

            Some of these same people would rather I have chosen to bleed internally until I was dead (literally a matter of minutes once it was finally discovered) than terminate when I had an ectopic. For the record, I wasn’t even given that option but it wouldn’t have been much of a choice. Neither I nor the embryo (or zygote at that point?) could have survived another hour but, hey, what do they care? Empathy is a complete unknown for them.

          • fiona64

            However, I sincerely doubt it puts you more at risk than even a legal abortion.

            And I’m sorry that you are too stupid to understand the truth.

          • L-dan

            Your sincere doubts do not trump actual numbers. More women suffer health complications and/or die from pregnancy than from abortions. These numbers are reported and available.

            Additionally, any dedicated OB/Gyn should know how to perform an abortion, his patient’s life may depend upon it. Most, if not all, doctors performing abortions are OB/Gyns.

          • Alicia Zarycki

            Childbirth is always a bigger risk than a late third trimester abortion. That is how safe legal abortions are.

          • lady_black

            Actually, SIDS has been reduced a great deal by the “back to sleep” campaign that is ongoing, as well as educating parents not to tart up the baby’s crib with pillows, padded bumpers, overly soft mattresses and fluffy comforters. A baby doesn’t need a pillow, doesn’t need padded crib rails and should be dressed in warm pjs with a very light blanket if any blanket is even needed. Your smoking and SIDS nonsense is just that. Nonsense. SIDS is thought to involve the excessive re-breathing of CO2 caused by the things I have just listed.

          • lady_black

            And OH BY THE WAY, don’t bother telling us that only women who are “promiscuous” are at risk of contracting STIs. You really are a misogynistic POS, aren’t you? Do you have any idea how many NON-promiscuous women are infected by promiscuous men? Likely MOST of them. You really are a silly cow. And it is in NO WAY a woman’s fault if she needs a C-section. EVER!! Now take your lies and go away. Enough of your nonsense.

          • goatini

            I’ve known several faithful wives who found, during labor and prep, that their cheating husbands had infected them with herpes. Nice.

            And I reckon our resident slut-shamer would prefer mutilating the woman with symphysiotomy so she doesn’t “need” a sinful c-section. After all, it was the woman’s fault so she deserves to be mutilated and permanently disabled. SMFH

          • Sunny

            That’s not even debatable. It is riskier for EVERY woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy & go through delivery than one who chooses to terminate. It’s a medical fact. For some the risks are FAR greater. There are few medical procedures less risky than an abortion. Nice try though.

            Kermit Gosnell, while a living nightmare, is not the norm, not even close, so it’s a purely anecdotal example. I won’t even give you a “nice try” for using such a logically fallacious example.

          • Sunny

            Pregnancy carries a much higher risk for me as well. It carries a higher risk for everyone.

            I’m still trying to make it to the finish line but after 6 miscarriages & an ectopic who could blame those that love me for being scared to death? They have accepted that the risks are acceptable to me so they support my choice.

            That’s the difference between being pro-choice & pro-birth (I refuse to use their self appointed moniker of pro-life because we all know that isn’t at all fitting).

            “We” accept that the choice of another is none of our damn business. “They” can’t seem to manage such a selfless attitude. My family, being wholly pro-choice, accepts my decision to continue trying.

            See how that whole “pro-choice” thing works? We support pregnant women, women trying to get pregnant, women who choose adoption, & yes, those who choose to terminate. They support one choice; have the baby regardless of the consequences. Huge difference.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Wonderfully said, Sunny–thank you.

          • fiona64

            ::round of applause::

          • Ella Warnock

            Well said, not that your eloquence will make a smidgen of difference.

          • Ramanusia

            Do you understand what the term self loathing means? Only a person with an incredible self-loathing would seek to force women to deny their basic right of bodily integrity while pretending that denying these human rights is anything other than slavery.

            Every pregnancy forced or not also carries with it a far greater risk to the life and health of a woman. It’s why 800 women die every day due to pregnancy world wide and why child birth has been the #1 killer of women throughout history. You who deny this and proclaim that every woman must be forced to gestate no matter what her will, her doctor or what common sense and simple human decency dictate are the ones who are fueling the hate driven agenda, so much of it is self-loathing, but so much more is just simple hate for women.

            You are literally the ones endangering women’s lives, denying them ownership of their own bodies and are consistently caught lying and producing propaganda to shove your lies down women’s throats. When you must lie as often as you do to literally enslave women and endanger them or outright kill them as you do, whining and projecting your own hate, your own misogyny, your own self-loathing, your own dependance on propaganda and lies, and your own desire to pursue policies which literally lead to women dying, is just not hiding your hate or your wrongness.

            When you must lie as often as you must do, and when your policies lead to the death of women, you know you’re on the wrong side of this issue. Unless you’re pro-death and pro-lying and pro-hate, if that’s your goal, you’re doing an excellent job advocating for your disgusting goals.

          • Arekushieru

            Only someone with an incredible lack of intelligence would disingenuously claim that every pregnancy must be forced in order for one to equate any sort of pregnancy with gestational slavery, THEN turn around and say that the natural act of sex needs no such requirements in order to be designated as force. Or, even, claim that a biological function in women can’t be forced, even though it is possible for such in men, then turn around and say they’re not misogynistic or that they ‘love’ women. You are a sick, perverted excuse for a human being, if you believe that, which you have proven MANY times over.

          • Ennis Demeter

            Forcing a woman to stay pregnant is indeed gestational slavery, and childbirth is WAY, WAY more dangerous than abortion. Do you tell women that at your CPC?

          • brbr2424

            Of course there is minuscule risk with an abortion. It is a medical event. An abortion is far far safer than giving birth. If medical risks are the only factor, women should not get pregnant in the first place and second best, always get an abortion.

          • Liz

            Maternal death rates in the US is approx. 7 deaths per 100,000 women. ALL complications from abortion are about 0.2% per 100,000 women. That’s not deaths, that’s ALL complications.

            Are they passing out too much booze at your church?

          • fiona64

            Maybe that’s the problem … she’s tippling the sacramental wine.

          • prolifemama

            Whether the source for the above is Guttmacher or the CDC, your stats are tainted by their pro-abort orientation.

          • fiona64

            So, the CDC is a “pro-abort” organization now?

            And you wonder why I think you’re such a fucking joke.

            Oh, and cue the tone-policing in 3 … 2 … 1 …

          • VeggieTart

            Nobody’s saying that there are no risks in a legal, early-term abortion. Any surgical procedure carries with it varying degrees of risk. But the truth is that abortion is less risky than carrying a pregnancy to term.

            And what would you call being forced to carry a unwanted pregnancy to term?

          • brbr2424

            Ronald Reagan tasked C Everett Koop to do a study on the detrimental effects of abortion. The problem was that the evidence showed that women experienced immediate relief after a termination of an unwanted pregnancy, whereas the women who continued the pregnancy experienced mental health issues including anxiety and depression. One in three women have had an abortion and I don’t know a single one who regrets that choice.

            The study was deep sized of course, when the evidence didn’t bear out their desired conclusion. Those were the good old days when the right wing cared enough about facts to quash a study that didn’t make their point. How far we have fallen since the Reagan years.

          • fiona64

            Yep. When a notoriously anti-choice surgeon-general says “PAS doesn’t exist,” people really need to pay attention.

          • someone45

            “We women deserve so much better than abortion”

            No we as women deserve so much better than forced pregnancy and forced birth.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            “People who truly care about the problems pregnant women face, actually offer them life-affirming options, not just the dead-end of abortion, which carries risk for their health as well as death for their babies.”

            And pregnant women also need full disclosure on the cost of raising children with disabilities. That is not information most CPCs will readily give, except to airily dismiss such concerns as “God will provide”. Are you aware that raising children with developmental delays can run to six figures?

            It costs $200,000 to raise a neurotypical child to age 18. Add a child with a developmental delay like autism or Down’s Syndrome, and one would need to add an additional $25000 per year for ongoing speech, physical, and occupational therapy which are usually not covered in full by insurance.

            https://www.autism-mi.org/Portals/0/Documents/Financial/The%20Cost%20of%20Raising%20a%20Child%20with%20Autism.pdf

            Are CPCs willing to reveal the costs of doing “life-affirming” options?
            I guess not.

            Not disclosing such costs means you are only providing biased information.

          • ljean8080

            i was born with cerebral palsey.no way did i cost 200,000

          • dudebro
          • JamieHaman

            Don’t know how long ago you were born, but it might at today’s prices.

          • fiona64

            It is pretty naive for someone to presume they know how much it cost to rear them. It’s more than just the costs of the birth. I was born in an air base hospital; the bill was $47, for my mother’s meals. That doesn’t mean it only cost my folks $47 to feed, clothe, provide medical care, etc., for the next 18 years until I moved out.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            You don’t say how severe your CP was.

            However, I’m talking about children with severe developmental delays. Children who are almost 100% nonverbal, have sensory integration issues, and need therapists to learn how to behave properly. These children require constant speech, occupational, physical and behavoral therapy to teach them how to function in this world. The cost of such therapies on a weekly basis is expensive and not often covered by insurance.

          • dudebro

            This blog here is very illuminating:

            http://feministchristian.blogspot.ca/

            The woman is Canadian, and she benefits from universal healthcare. But even then, it’s NOT nearly enough to cover the costs etc of looking after her autistic child.

            It’s heartbreaking to read.

            http://feministchristian.blogspot.ca/2014/04/hope-and-autism.html

          • JamieHaman

            Since it’s quite a bit safer for women to have an abortion than it is for women to be pregnant and give birth, you might want to rethink your position. From http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6108a1.htm
            Here is the latest numbers, a total of 12 maternal deaths, due to legal abortion. (2008)

            Here is maternal deaths due to childbirth, http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/pregnancy-relatedmortality.htm
            A total of an average of 650 MATERNAL DEATH.

            Safe, legal abortion is a LOT safer in this country than childbirth.

          • Ennis Demeter

            A woman continuing with her own life after a pregnancy termination is not a dead end.

          • pasha19

            The vast majority of women who have had abortions are glad they did it. Women deserve so much better than having other people try to eliminate their ability to make decisions about their own lives.

          • prolifemama

            Patently and provably false, pasha19.
            Ignore it if you like, but Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome is a real psychological disorder, similar to the Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder combat vets suffer. It is also treatable, as is PTSD, but only successfully if those suffering are validated in their pain, and permitted to express it.
            But continue to hide your head in your armpit. Treatment exists, and women are being helped and are healing.

          • ansuz

            “Ignore it if you like, but Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome is a real psychological disorder,”
            NO IT IS NOT.
            Read up.
            http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/abortion/

          • goatini

            But that is completely false. The American Psychiatric Association emphatically states that there is no such thing as “post abortion syndrome”, and it is not in the DSM. The vast majority of patients who obtain safe, legal pregnancy terminations experience RELIEF.

            “Father” Frank Pervert, of Priests That Lie, has a very profitable little fiefdom of misery pimping, preying on innocent patients with false blame, false shame, and false guilt, to attempt to add to the tax-free coffers (with no oversight) of his misery pimp empire. I heard one of his minions one evening on Catholic radio, I believe it was the reprehensible Teresa Tomeo’s program, touting her “therapy” program, and exhorting potential victims to call her. “Even if you DON’T feel any regret, it’s even more important that you call me, because you DO feel regret, you’re just deeply in denial.” What an amoral viper.

            To the sane people here, if you want to hear ample evidence of this kind of evil lying hateful bullshit, tune into the EWTN radio program “Defending Life” on Saturdays. I think it’s the same as the TV program also on EWTN. There, you will hear some of the most egregious misogynist hate speech and evil bullshit ever.

          • Sunny

            You should really check that with the different psychological & psychiatric sources. They claim differently. & they, unlike you, are the professionals.

          • redlemon

            You’re so concerned with this Post-Abortive Stress Syndrome and why that means that abortion should be illegal. What about PPD and PPP? Much better documentation and actually real, with cases of deadly after effects. Should we consider outlawing pregnancy because it has such a bad psychiatric aftereffect in a significant portion of the population (including things like, regret).

          • pasha19

            See, when you say nasty things like “continue to hide your head in your armpit” you are really encouraging the discourtesy you complain about. My head in my armpit? Really? But back to the subject: cite your sources. You say you can prove my statement about women not regretting abortion is false, so prove it.

          • fiona64

            Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome is a real psychological disorder,

            No, it goddamned well is not. I am sick and tired of providing the same information to you repeatedly. Here is yet *another* source that proves you a liar: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/magazine/21abortion.t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

            Quote: But the idea that abortion is at the root of women’s psychological ills
            is not supported by the bulk of the research. Instead, the scientific
            evidence strongly shows that abortion does not increase the risk of
            depression, drug abuse or any other psychological problem any more than
            having an unwanted pregnancy or giving birth.

            Another quote, ibid: Six years later, Ronald Reagan asked his surgeon general, C. Everett Koop,
            to issue a report on the health effects of abortion. Koop was against
            abortion, but he refused to issue the report and called the
            psychological harm caused by abortion “minuscule from a public-health
            perspective.”

            And yet another, ibid: Soon after Koop’s refusal in 1987 to report on the health effects of
            abortion, the American Psychological Association appointed a panel to
            review the relevant medical literature. It dismissed research like
            Reardon’s, instead concluding that “well-designed studies” showed 76
            percent of women reporting feelings of relief after abortion and 17
            percent reporting guilt. “The weight of the evidence,” the panel wrote
            in a 1990 article in Science, indicates that a first-trimester abortion
            of an unwanted pregnancy “does not pose a psychological hazard for most
            women.” Two years later, Nada Stotland, a psychiatry professor at Rush
            Medical College in Chicago and now vice-president of the American Psychiatric Association,
            was even more emphatic. “There is no evidence of an abortion-trauma
            syndrome,” she concluded in an article for The Journal of the American Medical Association.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Are you still spreading lies while ignoring all research on the subject? No surprise of course, what other option do you have?

          • Liz

            We women deserve and are entitled to self-autonomy. That is what we need not your ridiculous platitudes.

          • VeggieTart

            Yeah, like access to effective contraception so we aren’t faced with unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

            But for some women, abortion is far preferable to having a child you aren’t prepared to care for.

          • goatini

            Yes, she is exceedingly stupid. Or, actually, deliberately ignorant, and intentionally and maliciously posting vicious lying propaganda.

          • warriorgoddess

            Ah, I see you pushed “prolifemama” right into the ol’ I see your reason and facts and present utter bullshit and disregard to reality. She really does seem to be especially pig-headed and obtuse, that one.

          • dudebro

            Its a feature, not a bug.

          • fiona64

            What about organized drops of medicine, clothing, food, water, shelter,
            etc., that are made during natural disasters? Should the newly-homeless,
            injured, and sick wander from donor to donor, begging for what they
            need instead?

            Stop pretending that the lying, fake clinic where you work has anything to do with the Red Cross — which, BTW, tells people NOT to send goods to them, because it is an inefficient use of resources.

          • ansuz

            “If a pregnant woman’s choice is to commit suicide, or get dead-drunk and go driving on the freeway, or set herself aflame, would someone who ‘actually cares’ about her, let her make such a”choice”?”
            Fuck you so very much for this. I’m neither pregnant nor a woman (though I am someone who is probably capable of becoming pregnant), but I am struggling with suicidal ideation (amusingly, my possession of a uterus is contributing to it) and severe depression (new diagnosis of major depression, yay).
            Fuck you for equating abortion with something that is usually the result of mental illness.

            Usually I’d be able to articulate exactly what is wrong with what you said, but right now I am in pain and I want to die, and fuck you is the best I can do.

          • Liz

            That’s why pro-choicers call themselves pro-choice. They support women who want to carry their pregnancies to term and either keep the infant or surrender it for adoption. They also support women who want to terminate their pregnancies.
            Forcing women to have babies isn’t pro-life. You can call yourself pro-life but you really are not.

          • wolfgrizzer .

            If their so biased as to forcing a gal to give birth to a down syndrome.. I would simply leave it at the hospital, make them deal with it and not pay a damn cent toward the hospital charges!

          • goatini

            All lies, and the Tumblr linked to below contains all FACTS about these theocratic misogynistic fake “clinics”.

            http://exposingfakeclinics.tumblr.com/

          • Cactus_Wren

            Here’s one with more information about how such “clinics” browbeat women into relinquishing babies for adoption:

            http://www.thenation.com/article/shotgun-adoption

          • Jennifer Starr

            That article has always creeped me out–especially the idea of herding women into these ‘shepherding families’–away from their friends and families so they won’t change their mind or get support to raise their child themselves. It sounds a lot like kidnapping to me.

          • Ella Warnock

            Sounds like cult behavior. Isolating people from friends and family is their standard MO. Abusers do this, as well.

          • goatini

            I love Kathryn Joyce, she is such a wonderful advocate for women and children.

          • goatini

            //How many folks have the time or know-how to seek out pregnant strangers in need?//

            And how to string them along with lies, until they’re sure whether or not the product will turn out to be lucrative, sellable inventory? It takes a special kind of amoral vulture to do such reprehensible deeds.

          • fiona64

            What in the world is wrong with soliciting donations, then distributing the goods to those who need them?

            Acting as though other people’s donations come directly from the CPC is a little bit dishonest …

          • momatad

            I saw this by a local ‘big box’ during the Katrina/Louisiana debacle…..they asked all their customers to make donations for the poor victims of Katrina….then made the big show of giving ‘gift cards’ to them from ‘their store’….and took the tax break for the whole ball of wax.

          • RachelK

            That would be pro-choice people. Most of us also advocate for services and support for women who chose to be pregnant and to be mothers.

          • prolifemama

            Really, RachelK? And I suppose that a woman coming to you, pregnant and afraid and undecided, would be advised by you to look carefully at all her options, including parenting or adoption, that if she wants to parent while continuing her work and college plans, you would move heaven and earth to make that happen for her…
            Somehow, I doubt she’d get much genuine long-term assistance from that quarter…

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, that’s precisely what Planned Parenthood helped a friend of mine do when she was pregnant. The counselor had her look at all her options and she decided to carry her pregnancy and raise her child.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, that counselor must have surely been penalized for failing to meet her abortion sales quota for the month.
            ::rolleyes::

          • Sunny

            Yes, actually!!! You have to be trying to not see the difference! A woman coming to a pro-choice advocate would absolutely be advised & forwarded to people who can help them make the best choice for them, whatever that choice would be; adoption, pregnancy & delivery, abortion, etc. They would also be advised as to whom they could see for any of the options available to them. But I think you already know this. It’s called pro-choice for a reason. That includes ALL choices.

          • RachelK

            Yes, if she was undecided, I would help her look carefully at all her options. If she decided she wanted to continue the pregnancy, I would do everything possible to support her in that decision.
            Yes, really.
            That’s why I work from a reproductive justice framework. Access to abortion and to birth control is important, but I am just as concerned with supporting those who choose to parent and making that a viable choice for them. It breaks my heart to think of someone ending a wanted pregnancy because they did not have support for their pregnancy or the baby. If she wants to carry the pregnancy to term and then give the baby up for adoption, I would support that choice too. What that choice requires is support from family, friends, or the state so that the woman and the fetus can be healthy, which is why I advocate for low income women to receive good prenatal care, and for employers to be restricted in discriminating against them. I would help her learn about open vs. closed adoptions and support her in finding the family that she wants to raise that baby. Even if she wants to give the baby to a christian organization that I personally find repugnant, that is her choice.
            What I would not do is try to push one choice over another. It’s her choice not mine.
            But by all means, continue merrily along with your unfounded assumptions about pro-choice people. Facts haven’t seemed to stop you before, based on your commenting history.

          • brbr2424

            They don’t even give the stuff to pregnant women with no strings attached. The women have to earn monopoly money by sitting through fire and brimstone proselytizing.

          • StealthGaytheist

            Yep. Religious “charity” always has strings attached.

          • prolifemama

            The kind in “quotes” isn’t truly charity, then.
            True charity does exist. Even you could recognize it once you saw it, unless you’re convinced the world is full of chicanery, and then that’s all you’ll find.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you disagree with the CPCs that require that women attend bible studies and such in order to ‘earn’ things?

          • StealthGaytheist

            True charity gives because there is a need, because it is the right thing to do, and has no strings or judgement attached. Most religious charity has many strings attached (listen to this sermon, convert, take these classes, etc), is paired with judgement and or only given to “worthy” people(slutty sluts and pervert LGBT people get lectured or denied services). They lie to people and think it’s OK because Jesus. Religious groups hold their hands out for taxpayer money then demand the right to discriminate with that money. I’ve seen true charity and it rarely comes from religious groups.

          • fiona64

            Honestly, the only church I’ve ever attended that practiced true charity was a small MCC that closed down. We went out and fed people living with HIV, had soup suppers for the homeless … and NOT ONCE was there the quid pro quo of “listen to this sermon or anything similar.

            CPCs are all about “We’ll give you diapers if you listen to this (factually inaccurate) talk about contraception/the Bible/how much better off your ‘baby’ will be with some ‘deserving couple’.”

            Oh, and my favorite CPC lie? “College is free if you have a baby.” http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/15/2948781/lies-cpc-week-action/

          • redlemon

            My in-laws belong to a church that does true charity. They run a non-food pantry for the local area, gather volunteers for a non-church soup kitchen in the downtown area, have a knitting group that knits scarves and hats all year round for people who need them, etc. None of that comes with any religious strings, other then *maybe* a quick prayer before the meal. As a church, they really focus on the helping aspect and never turn anyone away, for any reason.

            It’s a very stark contrast of what I grew up with, where one had to prove that they were worthy and/or disabled enough to get something. You pretty much had to prove that you did nothing wrong in order to get charity.

          • StealthGaytheist

            Oh, and my favorite CPC lie? “College is free if you have a baby.”

            I’d say “unbelievable ” but nothing they do shocks me any more.

          • fiona64

            Yep, true charity does exist. And CPCs? Aren’t true charities.

          • P. McCoy

            I am familiar with a Nazarene church which will give you a bag of groceries only if you attend and listen to a Sunday sermon. I though that one takes care of the physical needs first, then the spiritual.

          • prolifemama

            I belong to a parish that operates the largest soup kitchen in our city, serving over 700 hot meals daily, and a food pantry that serves over 125 families weekly. Everyone is welcome to the kitchen, and in order to make sure the need is genuine for the food pantry, the standard info is required: place of residence, contact info, etc.

            Our church and rectory buildings provide outside water spigots for potable water, as well as charging stations for computers and cellphones, all for free.

            Our neighbors sometimes attend Mass while inebriated, and unless they try to hurt someone, they’re welcome to stay and worship.

            There’s a Mary Garden with guardian angel benches, and many a troubled homeless person has spent time there figuring out what to do, or simply resting in safety. Father makes certain they have food, water, restroom availability, showers – whatever they need.

            We give clothing, job help, counseling, Bible study, and other necessities to our neighbors, and have people from the nearby homeless camp sing as a choir for Mass, and visit them regularly with medical professionals for routine care.

            And yes – we’re Roman Catholics.

          • P. McCoy

            Well I figured that you weren’t Episcopalian. Nevertheless, these are all wonderful things to do; however, I still wish that Roman Catholicism had far less influence in the political/social culture of the United States. Tragically, these wonderful acts of mercy do not excuse the multi million dollar lawsuits that have had to be paid to the victims of sexual abuse by perpetrators in the clergy. These monies have bankrupted most dioceses and rightfully disillusioned many people, whose charitable donations, instead of maintaining churches as well as its other institutions, have instead, gone to pay lawsuits for heinous crimes against youths and children.

          • fiona64

            We give clothing, job help, counseling, Bible study, and other necessities

            I’m pretty sure Bible study and religious counseling are not necessities. Thanks for admitting to the quid pro quo attached to the help you give.

            Stuff like this makes me very sad indeed.

          • goatini

            I call it “Prayers For Pampers”

          • prolifemama

            Ah. Childcare classes are “fire and brimstone,” hmm?

            Look up the success rate of these young (unwed, most of them) mothers, themselves from broken homes, drugs, alcoholic parents, incomplete education, because of these classes they’re ‘forced’ to take. Better yet, find a pregnancy center near you and ask to talk with one of their been-there-done-that former client speakers.

            Does it occur to you that these young women WANT to turn their lives around, and are able to do so BECAUSE of the help they’ve received, and the love they’ve been shown for perhaps the first time in their lives?

            brbr2424, you and your ilk obviously can’t stomach the thought of selflessness being practiced by your arch-enemies (you think), we prolifers, and so you are duty-bound to conduct your little smear campaigns.

            But lots of folks know firsthand what we prolifers do, and continue to do, for them and their families, and handily debunk the venom you spew.

            So just rant on, that they may know you’re mad.

          • goatini

            Yes, we know that you also just can’t understand WHY all those horrid women are making such a fuss about getting “help” to “turn their lives around”, from the dear Sisters who ran the Magdalene Laundries. After all, they are just loving pro-lifers who selflessly take in unwed mothers from disadvantaged backgrounds!

            DUBLIN — Samantha Long and her twin sister, Etta Thornton-Verma, were born in 1972 and adopted at 9 months. They never knew their birth mother and decided to try to track her down in the mid-1990s. “Nothing prepared us for what we found,” Ms. Thornton-Verma, who lives in New York, recalled in a telephone interview last week.

            Samantha Long and her twin sister, Etta Thornton-Verma, were born in 1972 and adopted at 9 months.

            “We were prepared for the ordinary possibilities, like a teenage girl who got pregnant and wasn’t in a circumstance to keep us,” she said. “But we were not thinking that she might be incarcerated by nuns.”

            In 1995 they found their mother, Margaret Bullen, here in the Sean MacDermott Street Laundry — one of Ireland’s notorious Magdalene Laundries, or workhouses for girls — where she had toiled since 1967, six days a week, without pay. They were shocked by her appearance. “She was very disheveled and looked more than 20 years older than she was,” Ms. Long said. “She was 42, but we were looking at a pensioner’s face. It was hard work, poor nutrition and forced labor.”

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/07/world/europe/seeking-redress-in-ireland-over-magdalene-laundry.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

          • fiona64

            But lots of folks know firsthand what we prolifers do

            Yes, we do. You lie. Just a few source for the lies told at CPCs, by people who went undercover to investigate:

            http://www.naralva.org/what-is-choice/cpc/common-lies.shtml
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caitlin-bancroft/crisis-pregnancy-center_b_3763196.html
            http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/15/2948781/lies-cpc-week-action/

            Oh, and Bible classes, like the ones required at CPCs in order to get a package of disposable diapers? Do not help anyone “get ahead in life.”

          • Liz

            Pro-choice is the only pro-life position that exists. Self-identified pro-lifers are anything but.

          • Ann Kah

            This fails to take into account the supposed religious freedoms that people have in this country. Catholics and Buddhists and Jews and atheists are all, at times, people who have children that they cannot afford to support. When a religion-based organization gives assistance, they have a regrettable “tit-for-tat” attitude: you should be so grateful for help that you pray with us or listen to our theology, etc. Please bear in mind that a person CANNOT “choose to believe”, and any other supposition is pretty much a thought crime. Yes, I know, Christianity thinks that religion would be “good for” the poor, and fail to see how smug and self-serving that notion is.

          • prolifemama

            There are some help centers that do what you are saying they do. I reported one such when I went there for a pregnancy test, knowing they were prolife and while not needing their help, still wanting to support them. When they learned I am Catholic, they immediately began pressuring me to turn from my false religion and study the real Bible, etc., etc. I called their Synod and let them know what was going on, and they were contacted immediately and told to stop such pressure tactics. Later, the facility had closed.

          • catseye

            And tell women they’ll die of breast cancer if they terminate the pregnancy.

          • Ella Warnock

            Some of them tell women they’ll get cancer and *abort* zygotes if they use hormonal birth control or IUDs. So, she’s a s!ut for considering abortion, but she’s also not to use the most effective forms of birth control, either.

          • fiona64

            And other assorted lies …

          • prolifemama

            Try calling your local center and talking – civilly – with the director. Tell him/her that you’re pro-choice, and have doubts as to their value to your community. Ask her/him what services they provide.
            I seriously doubt you’ve ever had a one-on-one (not fisticuffs) with a real prolife person who meets the day-to-day needs of women in unintended pregnancies.
            I imagine you shouting through your locked door to the world at large, convinced there’s no real generosity or compassion in the human heart, especially when it beats in the chest of a prolifer.

          • goatini

            Aggressively campaigning for gestational slavery to be forcibly imposed on unwilling innocent citizens has ZERO to do with “generosity and compassion”, and EVERYTHING to do with cruel and inhuman torture of innocent citizens.

            The only thing “day to day” that these amoral, soulless grifters actually DO is to count the days that each prospective slave laborer grows closer to not being legally able to exercise their civil rights – and then lie to the slave laborer about how far along she is, to make sure that she is completely cut off from the free exercise of her civil rights. That’s IT. (As for the ridiculous “fisticuffs” snide comment, that’s just projection of their own innate hatred and violence upon the innocent opposition, SSDD for these vicious vipers.)

            So-called “crisis pregnancy centers” are nothing but inventory aggregation centers for the billion-dollar global human trafficking adoption syndicate. ALL they are interested in is exploiting innocent citizens in gestational slavery, in order to sell the issue to the highest bidder at 5 figures a pop to greedy, barren vultures who think they are entitled to exploit women for their own selfish gain. Anyone associated with these torture and kidnapping crime outfits has no “human heart” – NO ONE with a heart could do to innocent victims what they do each and every day. They are depraved vultures.

          • dudebro

            From what I have seen, you have no compassion, what with your fetish for mutilating women with ectopic pregnancies.

          • goatini

            She also posted some junk “science” about “causes” of “c-section risks”. Probably thinks that symphysiotomy mutilations should be performed instead of c-sections.

          • fiona64

            I seriously doubt you’ve ever had a one-on-one (not fisticuffs) with a
            real prolife person who meets the day-to-day needs of women in
            unintended pregnancies.

            So now you claim I go around hitting anti-choice people? Or do you just not know what fisticuffs means?

            You’re insane.

            I’ve provided the citations that prove CPCs tell lies to women. It’s not my fault you were too stupid to read them.

          • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

            I have debated with CPC personnel both in person and online. Like you, they evade direct questions and offer lies and deceit. For example when it is pointed out that you, prolifemomma, murder innocent babies in an effort to save fetuses, you dance around the issue. You and other pro lifers cannot answer direct questions with direct answers.
            Lets try the questions again and see how you spin and dance rather than answer. You have a choice, there are 1.8 born persons dying each second, you can save one of the born babies that is dying or you can choose to let that person die and attempt to save a fetus instead. What is your choice?

            Now, prolifemomma, spin and dance for me.

          • goatini

            The one in Louisville, next to the reproductive health care clinic protected by the caring, compassionate escorts who write the Every Saturday Morning blog (everysaturdaymorning dot NET – FYI the gestational slavers are squatting on “dot com”), has a Prayers For Pampers track for non-white women and their unsellable products. Check out “Necole’s Place”.

          • Jasper0123

            Fiona apple. You’re delusional.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, she’s right on the money.

          • fiona64

            Okay then …

          • prolifemama

            Hey, Jasper 0123.
            Not trying to slam her, but I’m not quite sure where dear fiona gets the idea she has about pregnancy help centers as a network of white slavers and kidnappers… among pro-aborts, it’s a new one to me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Did you read the Kathryn Joyce article about Bethany Christian Services and other places and how they hide women away in their ‘shepherding families’ so they can take their babies? http://www.thenation.com/article/shotgun-adoption

          • fiona64

            It’s nothing new to people who live in RealityLand: http://www.barf.org/articles/0035/

          • goatini

            They are Potemkin fronts for inventory aggregation centers for the billion-dollar global human trafficking adoption syndicate. FACT.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Let’s be real here. CPCs will say anything, promise anything, if they think it will get a woman through that door and make her change her mind. None of it has to be true. There is no oversight and they are not bound by regulations or federal privacy laws.

          • Kathryn Ranieri

            Why would they “grossly underfund” as you claim? Is there a reality that you don’t care to address?

          • Liz

            CPCs lie to women about abortion and contraception. There are no legitimate studies that abortion or contraception causes any type of cancer or mental illness. That alone makes them unfit to operate.

        • goatini

          I’m quite familiar with the Guild For Exceptional Children, as the Home Reporter is my hometown local newspaper. They are a secular community organization that has been around for at least 50 years, that actually provides real assistance to families with developmentally disabled children in the area. (People in that area are also still quite aware of the horrors that occurred at Willowbrook State School in Staten Island. Senator Robert F Kennedy was instrumental in exposing this “snake pit”, as the Senator put it.) All of this being said, actual significant assistance to families with developmentally disabled children was, and is, done entirely by SECULAR non-profit organizations, and supported by local SECULAR elected representatives – and the exposure and elevation in the public eye of warehousing developmentally disabled persons in unacceptable conditions was done by SECULAR elected representatives through SECULAR civil rights legislation.

          The radical theocratic exploiters and propagandists have done ZERO to make a difference for the persons ALREADY BORN with developmental disabilities. (Except, as previously stated, in the very few of the most photogenic/exploitable situations.)

          • StealthGaytheist

            I’m familiar with Willowbrook, and with the abuse and neglect that us rampant today (both in secular and religious-run facilties). The antichoice zealots love to bleat about “god’s special people” but they ignore the special hell that is life for many of them.

      • fiona64


        Pregnancy Decision Health Center

        BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

        What a ridiculous misnomer. No medical staff on site, just a bunch of busybodies with clipboards, lies and condescending little speeches like PLM delivers here … and, of course, the obligatory attempts to get white women to surrender infants for adoption by “deserving couples” who can’t be bothered to adopt any of the hundreds of thousands of children already available.

        • goatini

          The unsellable products always revert to the producers of the unsellable products. Except, as previously noted, the very few of the most photogenic/exploitable situations.

      • Jennifer Starr

        A fake clinic is not going to help with a child’s future medical needs.

        • prolifemama

          These “fake clinics” you hate so much have secured the help of doctors in various fields including obstetrics, neonatal, pediatrics
          – who provide their services as yearly charitable donations for those of limited means.

          They also put parents of high-need children (Down’s Syndrome, anencephalic, Spina Bifida, etc.) in touch with specialists who donate their services as well, in addition to the network of ‘mundane’ care available (job-sharing, housing, clothing, groceries, etc., etc., etc.).

          Don’t ignore on-site certified sonographers who volunteer their time and skill, enabling women to see their babies in utero.

          Many women declare their children’s ultrasound images helped them to choose life for their kids rather than aborting them – would you deny women that option away because it fosters parenting over abortion?

          • goatini

            Translation: Theocratic, misogynistic exploitation and propaganda facilities don’t want to be saddled with unsellable products, so they tragically lie to the producers of the unsellable products about mythical, imaginary “donated services”, that in almost all cases (except the most photogenic/exploitable) will never be provided in any significant way whatsoever.

            There, it’s fixed. Hope this helps person looking for actual FACTS to make the best decisions. Theocratic, misogynistic fake clinics (no scare quotes here, because they ARE 100% fake) offer NO facts.

          • almond_bubble_tea

            “They also put parents of high-need children (Down’s Syndrome, anencephalic, Spina Bifida, etc.) in touch with specialists who donate their services as well, in addition to the network of ‘mundane’ care available (job-sharing, housing, clothing, groceries, etc., etc., etc.).”

            Citation please.

          • Ramanusia

            Funny how the proliemamma is so silent when it comes to backing up the utterly silly nonsense she posts. She’s happy to come here to lie some more, but can’t answer simple questions?

          • fiona64

            Yep. She has plenty of time to post more of her little CPC “talking points,” but none to provide sources for her assertions.

            And that is because her “source” is her backside.

          • JamieHaman

            Can you name any of these on site certified sonographers? Can you name any of these doctors, any specialists?

            Name one? Any of the above, since you are so familiar with this?

            Surely these professional people would have no problem with their names being shared, since they do this work.

            Btw, are any of the doctors also volunteering their time and expertise?

          • fiona64

            And all of that must surely be why CPCs balk at requirements to put up signage specifying whether or not there are any medical professionals on site? http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/01/20/federal-appeals-court-reinstates-portion-nyc-law-regulating-crisis-pregnancy-centers/

          • Arekushieru

            Women can CHOOSE to have an ultrasound. It should NOT be forced. So not only do you advocate for gestational and birth rape but also rape by medical instrument? Wow, thanks for proving what a bunch of rape apologists you anti-choice losers are. And the majority of women who choose to abort actually feel RELIEF when viewing the ultrasound image. OOPS!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m assuming you have a source for this, yes?

          • StealthGaytheist

            Yes, her ass.

          • fiona64

            You know, it’s been eight day since we asked her for citations. She’s managed to write numerous nonsensical, smarmy posts the length of a Bible … and yet she’s “too busy” to provide a citation.

            Heh.

      • goatini

        //Pregnancy Decision Health Center//

        hahahahahaha

        I see the gestational slavers have come up with a new euphemism for “tax-free and actual healthcare-free misogynistic exploitation and theocratic propaganda facility”

    • fiona64

      The anti-choice busybodies don’t give a shit about any of that … which we all know.

  • fiona64

    More politicians practicing medicine without a license. I’m all for informed consent, but this is ridiculous.

    • BelligerentBruncher

      “politicians practicing medicine without a license”

      Just like Obamacare

      • P. McCoy

        Politicians shouldn’t be playing taxmen either giving the rich tax breaks they don’t need nor deserve

      • lady_black

        The ACA doesn’t purport to practice medicine. The ACA deals with health insurance. However, laws that tell physicians how they discuss and advise a patient is the practice of medicine without a license.

      • JamieHaman

        If you could be bothered to actually read the ACA, you would know that it regulates the insurance companies, not health care. It insists that there be no lifetime cap on infant care, particularly important if a premie is born, that there be no foolishness concerning pre-existing conditions, and a minimum amount of coverage. It also requires that 4 out of 5 dollars be spent on medical care, with refunds or rebates provided to purchasers of the insurance.

        You would also know that the insurance companies choose what medical care that they will pay a percentage of, after the requirements laid out in the ACA.

        Bet you haven’t read any of it.

    • fiona64

      Reply to ProLifeAntichoiceMama, in moderation:

      The *politician* are forcing the doctors to read from a script that MAY OR MAY NOT BE ACCURATE, since it has not even been written yet. That script may well indeed be based on falsehoods … and no one knows, since the script can’t be reviewed.

      Of course, you’re the one who keeps touting the alleged “positive aspects” of gestating an anencephalic fetus without being able to cite just what those are …

      The rest of your post is, as always, a big pile of twaddle.

      • fiona64

        Further reply to AntiChoiceMama, still in moderation, who wrote:

        Doctors relating the facts of a disability, and parenting children with
        said disability, to a woman who is pregnant with such a child, is not
        practicing medicine without a license. It is making sure she has all the
        information she needs so that her choice to abort isn’t based on
        falsehoods, prejudice, or myth.

        Re-read this part of what I wrote very slowly: The *politicians* are forcing the doctors to read from a script that MAY OR MAY NOT BE ACCURATE, since it has not even been written yet. That script may well indeed be based on falsehoods … and no one knows, since the script can’t be reviewed.
        =
        Informed consent in such cases is already standard practice. That you don’t like the decisions that some women come to in determining how much medical and financial risk their families are going to take doesn’t change that fact.

        And, again, the rest of your post is a bunch of fact-free twaddle.

        • fiona64

          Reply to Brianna Gamma, in moderation, who wrote: Now, an anencephalic fetus, I would bring to term. Won’t survive birth and could save a dozen neonates with organ transplants.

          Well, I have to be honest. That is a perspective that I had not considered.

          My fiance cares for adults with downs. Once they aren’t cute anymore and face the crushing reality of minimum wage, no sexual partners, and constant supervision their lives are a living hell. Many commit suicide, or try to. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

          And there’s the unfortunate face of reality. :-(

  • dudebro

    There was a fruitbat on Patheos blogs who was obsessed with arguing that down syndrome is just another variation – like eye color.

    • JamieHaman

      smh. It’s a variation all right. Not one every family is prepared to deal with either.

      • P. McCoy

        Arguing with brainwashed religious fanatics is like arguing with someone who’s convinced that they’re Cleopatra. A waste of time; let’s use our brains to get legislation that curbs religious zealots from trying to overthrow the US government and establish a tyrannical theocracy.

        • goatini

          You’ve got THAT exactly right. That IS exactly their intention, and it is urgent that patriotic citizens do everything we can to protect the rights of their fellow citizens – and prevent the tyrannical theocracy these anti-American seditionists want to install.

  • sophie

    So, where is all the legislation mandating that men be lied to regarding their risk of prostrate cancer? Why aren’t there bills mandating that a physician tell their male patients that viagra causes prostrate cancer or other “consequences?”
    No, it is only women who are blatantly lied to by a physician who is being forced to violate his/her code of medical ethics in delivering false information regarding abortion. Why have “misinformed consent” laws remained legal when such lies clearly violate the patient’s health and well-being?

    • prolifemama

      The legislation mentioned in the article deals with information about Down’s Syndrome, not abortion…

      • Dez

        You’re being disingenuous. We all know this is about trying to dissuade women from getting an abortion after a diagnosis of downs. Otherwise doctors wouldn’t have to forced to read a script. The doctor should determine the medical information given to a patient, not politicians.

        • lady_black

          I agree. Politicians need to stop practicing medicine. On the other hand, the doctor is in no way barred from reading the script, and then giving further, unbiased information. Deciding to bring to term the pregnancy of a child who will present huge challenges requires full disclosure so people know exactly what they are signing up for.

          • catseye

            There are an appalling number of failed doctors in the RepubliKKKan party. That’s why they feel qualified to dictate to women in regard to our reproductive functions.

          • Ramanusia

            Frankly, they need to lose their license if they fail to provide information to attain informed consent after reading the fictional script the law requires them to. Just because the law makes you do something, it doesn’t mean you’re excused from the requirement to provide ALL the information required for informed consent.

      • P. McCoy

        I say if your kind forces women to have ds or other deformed kids, the mothers get to leave them on your pregnancy decisions’ door step- or at your house. Don’t want to raise them? Get out of the way of my abortion rights!

        • prolifemama

          Each of us is lacking in one way or another.
          Your response to those who lack much is to take away the little they possess? No compassion, no tenderness? No heart?
          It is disturbing that the more fragile the human being, the more adamant you are that they be killed.

          • fiona64

            And how many of those fragile human beings have you adopted, again?

          • Jennifer Starr

            My guess is none.

          • fiona64

            That’s my guess as well.

          • P. McCoy

            Your maudlin sentimentaility falls on deaf ears-to ME as in science, not religious fanaticism, zygotes,embryos and fetuses are not people until birth. So I am not advocate killing anyone. But I am not surprised that you would dodge the question of volunteering of your pregnancy centers becoming safe drops of the deformed in case you achieve your goals of forced birth ie; outlawing of abortion. Your kind are pro birth; once they get here in this scenario, you care about the children as much as you would care for two dead flies!

          • StealthGaytheist

            How many hours have you devoted to caring for people with disabilities, and improving their lives? It’s easy to be pious when you don’t have to sweat or gey your hands dirty.

          • Ramanusia

            Yes, we see where and how you are lacking. You lack much and you seek to take away the basic human rights that women possess to their own autonomy?

            No, you have no compassion, tenderness or heart, and it is disturbing that you’re adamant to ensure that women are attacked, harassed and lied to for political gain when these human women are at their most fragile and trying to make the best and most informed decisions for themselves and their families.

            Why are you so adamant about harassing women and lying to them, at the risk of their own health and lives, just so you can get a political victory? You are very disturbed indeed.

          • goatini

            She is disturbed and malignant.

          • Ramanusia

            She’s an anti-choicer, what else could she be?

          • Arekushieru

            Of course, you say NOTHING about the children who suffer more DAILY because of your so-called brand of help. Yeah, no, WE’RE not the ones who lack compassion. OOPS.

          • cjvg

            You cant take anything from someone who does is not alive yet

    • fiona64

      Prostate. /nitpick

    • P. McCoy

      Doesn’t Viagra also include a great risk of blindness? I think that any man who would risk his SIGHT in order to “get a rise” needs serious psychological counselling.

    • JamieHaman

      lol, all men receiving Viagra ought to have to look at how “any erection lasting four or more hours” is treated as well.
      The needle is large and it can be a bit of a mess.

      • P. McCoy

        Useless if they end up blind eh?

  • lady_black

    I’ll wait for the “script” to actually be written. In truth, anyone who wants the information can easily find it themselves. I’m generally suspicious when laws mandate that a doctor blow sunshine up the skirt of pregnant women. Anyone receiving such a diagnosis is in need of unbiased education about what to expect. After all, they are the ones who need to decide whether or not they have the financial, emotional and mental resources to handle a child who will be a challenge, and how this will affect the family. I will make no judgment on those who feel they can’t handle a child with Downs. There’s a lot to take into consideration, not the least of which is what will become of the child should the parents die.

    • almond_bubble_tea

      “blow sunshine up the skirt of pregnant women. ”

      I love this expression. Can I steal it?

  • P. McCoy

    “Prolifemama” tipped her fanatical error-abortion does not kill children, so noone yells kill the kid! We don’t advocate Black genocide by giving Black Women the opportunity to have access to contraception and.abortion. However her kind has sure done their share of Domestic Terrorism: the Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Dr. Tiller as well as the trashing of a clinic in Montana. The blood of genuine people is on YOUR hands forced birther!

    • goatini

      Totally! NONE of those violent misogynist criminals are “lone wolves” – as far as I am concerned, each and every forced-birther is complicit, and is an aider and abetter.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

      • P. McCoy

        Double thanks! I have made other posts regarding this issue to the point that since anti choicers as well as their political allies posing as members of tax free religious organizations should be taxed, sued Into penury for their support of or participating directly in acts of Domestic Terrorism as well be imprisioned in Federal prisons in solitary confinement as we would any other terrorists or would be enemies of the state. They should also get the same punishments for.hate crimes against LGBT people.

  • http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com/ Russell Crawford

    If every person were taught the laws that control the impact of abortion, this would not be an issue.

  • lady_black

    Prattling on about the non-existent “post-abortion syndrome” are you? You are NOBODY to dictate to a stranger that they must bring a child into the family that will impact each member. Some folks are made of tougher stuff than others. Both sides of the story need to be told. The incidence of divorce and abandonment. The bankrupting. Who the burden of caring for such a child will fall upon when the parents die. Many families do well with special children, many more do not. It’s not your decision to make.

  • lady_black

    I would NOT bring an anencephalic fetus to term. No way. I’d have to think very hard about one with Downs, and I’m leaning toward “no” just for the very reasons you listed. The kind of life they face after they aren’t little and cute anymore, and their parents can no longer control them.

  • lady_black

    Oh NONSENSE. A woman presenting for a 2nd trimester abortion has already considered life as the parent of an exceptional child and decided she isn’t up to the task. Nobody “hates” children with disabilities, any more than anyone “hates” old people with dementia. But they are both difficult to deal with for both families and the professionals who care for them. I wouldn’t tell anyone they *must* bring to term a mentally defective fetus, any more than I would tell them they *must* keep grandma, who has Alzheimer’s, at home. Most people simply aren’t equipped or able to give up most of their lives to provide the care the person needs.

  • goatini

    //The information will include the many actual positives about DS//

    More like, the information will NOT include the FACTS that the VAST majority of Down’s patients are NOT, and will NEVER be, the high-functioning ideal that the forced-birth syndicate irresponsibly propagandizes about. It will NOT include the FACTS about the vast and immense financial resources that are required to get that very small minority of high-functioning patients to that idealized state – and the even MORE vast and immense financial resources that are required for the majority of the other patients. It will NOT include the FACTS that lifelong fully-attended care – often PAST the lifespan of the parents – MUST be provided for the patients, at vast and immense expense. It will NOT include the FACTS that when female Down’s patients reach adolescence, they are susceptible targets for sexual abuse. It will NOT include the FACTS that when male Down’s patients reach adolescence, parents and caretakers must deal with an infantile mind, unable to control raging hormones, in an adult-sized body.

    And since there is NO such thing as “post abortive syndrome”, as affirmed by the American Psychiatric Association, and also affirmed by the FACT that there is no such “syndrome” in the DSM, the FACTS are that immoral theocratic misogynistic ghouls (such as “Father” Frank Pervert, head ghoul and misery pimp of the fake “post abortive syndrome” hoax) deliberately and maliciously attempt to exploit pregnancy termination patients for the perpetuation of their misery pimp financial empires. Frank Pervert has made a boatload of tax-free dough via his various scams, executed with NO oversight whatsoever.

  • goatini

    Profound disabilities are NOT “falsehoods”, “prejudice”, or “myth”, and lying to patients facing perhaps the most painful news they will ever hear, and perhaps the most difficult decision they will ever make, is reprehensibly malicious.

    And there is NO such thing as an “abortion mill” – but there ARE very real ADOPTION mills, aka so-called “crisis pregnancy centers”. Each and every one of these fraud outfits is an inventory aggregation center for the billion-dollar global human trafficking adoption syndicate. And the unsellable products ALWAYS revert to the producers, where they usually end up warehoused in foster care till they age out. (So much for all the fehadist LIARS who “want to adopt” – they’re NOT interested in the unsellable products.)

  • fiona64

    You spamming the same bullshit doesn’t make it so.

  • fiona64

    Was it really necessary to post this nonsense thrice?

  • JamieHaman

    I’m glad there is a a Patient Trust Act (2303) Now I hope it passes.

    Don’t the legislatures think the women of Pennsylvania know how to read?
    Doesn’t the Legislature of Penn. know that it is offensive to have someone read to you when you know how to read?

  • missedgehead

    For me, this is not about abortion. This is about government interference in health care and the hypocrisy of busybody right wingers when it comes to women’s health care. I mean, how do these politicians know what a woman and her family are going to decide when they hear the diagnosis? Are they doctors now? They have some nerve calling for small government and yelling about Obamacare, but at the same time, passing a law like this. Ridiculous.

  • fiona64

    WRT this article’s amendment: “Patients shouldn’t worry that they are on the receiving end of a political agenda when they go to the doctor.”

    Which is exactly why physicians should not be handed some bee-ess script created by anti-choicers and told that this is what they must read to patients.

  • warriorgoddess

    It makes me wonder why anyone would put themselves through the hell of medical school, plus residency etc. just to get told what they can and cannot say by politicians who have ZERO clue of what they are talking about and give zero f**ks about the patients. Doctors are being forced to lie to their patients, against their own better judgement and against the Hippocratic Oath or break the rules and hope they are not being set up by one of the forced birth brigade. It is all about control- if they can’t control the behavior of the women, they will try to control the medical community instead.

    • redlemon

      I can’t speak for doctors, but I know my husband went through nursing school because he not only enjoyed medical science, but also because he hopes to make a difference within the medical field and buck these insane laws.

    • lady_black

      We don’t know yet if the script is a lie, but let’s not get carried away here. The government cannot force doctors to lie. They can force them to read a script, which the doctor can then follow with “And I hope you’re intelligent enough to know that what I just said is bullshit, but the state forces me to say it.” and then follow through with more complete and accurate information.

  • Alicia Zarycki

    I’m really against these laws that interfere with the doctor/patient relationship. When I was 21 weeks pregnant I had the type of ultrasound appointment that many women never expect. The technician had us come back for second look because the doctor wanted to do the ultrasound to confirm. I was told that my fetus was not growing properly. I was rushed to a Maternal Fetal specialist to get a more advanced look. There my husband and I were told that the fetus had many different problems and most likely Down Syndrome. The only way to confirm at that point was an Amnio. I was so high risk due to other problems that I would most likely lose the fetus to have the testing. On top of that my husband and I were in disagreement about raising another very high special needs child. So we had to research what resources were going to be available, and decide in less than two weeks if we could provide for a Down Syndrome child. A baby that would need at least two or more surgeries just upon birth based on a cleft palate and an hole in her heart. It was agony because we had experienced a loss of twins just earlier that year and I nearly died from one twin being ectopic. I wasn’t sure my family could handle another loss so soon. Ultimately we chose to continue the pregnancy and test to confirm the Down Syndrome diagnosis when I wasn’t at risk to lose the fetus.

    However, while my family chose not to terminate, I would never want others to have the same choice taken away. We were very lucky that the prenatal problems eventually cleared up for our daughter and she was born without Down Syndrome. We had never been able to get the testing done because of the other problems that I had unrelated to my daughter’s development. We just had to hope for the best.

    Children with Down Syndrome can live long lives but they might need lifelong caregivers and you don’t know how hard your child will have to make the same milestones that most children achieve easily.

  • RNfromNY

    A friend of mine had a down’s baby. The medical costs from her cardiac surgeries bankrupted her. “Pro-lifers” weren’t there to help pay the costs. If I were pregnant with a Down’s baby, I would feel like keeping it isn’t an option.

    • lady_black

      Bankruptcy, and the ruination of lord only knows how many marriages. I’m aware that heart defects often go hand in hand with Down’s. I don’t blame anyone who feels they can’t handle it.

  • Kathryn Ranieri

    PA Governor Corbett cut all manner of support even for state aid. However, he expanded the financial support for Real Alternatives to the tune of $6.29 million for allowing one man to oversee a program that supports abstinence for every person, medical misinformation and human rights violations for women.

  • Kris Weibel

    How can lawmakers create laws that dictate what a Dr. can tell a patient….how the hell can this be legal?

  • fiona64

    Were all of the risks, benefits and alternatives described to you? I’ll bet they were … and that you’re choosing to selectively remember the parts that bugged you.

  • fiona64

    Watch for her favorite “argument” in that sitution: that abortion destroys evidence of a crime.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Now she’s trying to tell me that detaching a toddler from my leg makes me legally responsible for the child. Where does she get this tripe from?

      • dudebro

        it’s funny watching Drew actually. He steals arguments from SPL and posts them on Personhood USA. Guaranteed, once a topic has been on SPL for a few days it will appear on Personhood USA.

        • fiona64

          I think we must have been linked on LieSiteSpews again …

          • dudebro

            HuffPo and Salon from what I understand.

      • fiona64

        Her bunghole.

  • Jasper0123

    You’re a devil

    • Jennifer Starr

      Care to elaborate?

  • parterre

    I think that once a woman has a confirmed pregnancy, the doctor should consider that there are 2 patients there, and communicate risks, benefits of procedures to BOTH patients. Maybe the baby should even have a prenatal specialist assigned to him / her.

    • ansuz

      Good for you. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with your own pregnancies in that manner. I’m sure the zef will find the doctor’s communication of risks and benefits of various procedures to it to be very enlightening.
      In my case, if I were to ever become pregnant, my options would be abortion or suicide. There is no case in which a pregnancy experienced by me results in live infant and live ansuz, unless that case is restraining and intubating me for the next eighty years or so.

      • parterre

        During my own pregnancies, my OB did consider and communicate risks / benefits to me, regarding my health and the baby’s. It’s pretty common practice.

        • ansuz

          You missed the sarcasm. There was syntactical ambiguity in your comment, leaving open the possibility that you were saying you felt that doctors should direct such statements at the zygote/embryo/fetus.

          • parterre

            True! You may have read it before I edited it.

    • fiona64

      How nice for you. I want my doctor to consider that *I* am the patient and work with me.

      • parterre

        Aren’t you glad your Mom felt that you were a person? : )

        • fiona64

          You know, I remember when I was an anti-choice dimwit and thought that smarmy little bumper-sticker slogans constituted great wisdom, too.

          Then, I got out of high school and into the real world, where things are not nearly as black-and-white as I thought. I have great hopes that you will do the same.

          • parterre

            Easy way to avoid the actual question. Good insult – – who’s the one using high-school tactics?

          • fiona64

            Like I said above, I outgrew the kind of absurd existential angst you’re displaying when I was about 12 years old. ::shrug::

          • parterre

            Actually, it was dudebro who mentioned existential angst. Pretty sure he was being sarcastic though.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The argument you’re making is predicated upon existential angst.

          • parterre

            Not really.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, yes it is. And it works best with pre-teens and teens who sit there and agonize about “Oh noes, what if there was no all-important meee!!!!” Eleventy!!!

          • fiona64

            Yes, really. In fact, it is *solely* about existential angst.

          • fiona64

            No, zie wasn’t being sarcastic. And I mentioned to you in another reply.

            You writing about “the horrors of non-existence” … which, if you had a firing synapse, you would understand cannot *be,* since if one does not exist one cannot experience horror … betrayed your existential angst.

          • dudebro

            since if one does not exist one cannot experience horror

            That’s what *you* think, but that’s only because you are living in reality. Sheesh.

            What if you were on the moon and a toddler came knocking on your space-door???????????

          • Jennifer Starr

            Next she’s bound to have the toddler crawling in through the window or something. What’s really funny is that she actually posted the toddler questions on Yahoo! Answers (as beachgirl) in hopes that someone would tell her that she was right. Does she not know how to look up laws herself?

          • dudebro

            omg that’s funny

          • Ella Warnock

            Her imaginary toddlers are persistent little buggers, aren’t they? Is there nowhere in the (her) universe I can escape their clutches?

          • fiona64

            Space toddlers! Whoot!

          • Ella Warnock

            Eh, I say it’s the aliens’ problem.

        • dudebro

          Yes, fiona is filled with exisential angst. She especially worries about what might have happened if dad’s sperm hadn’t met mom’s ovum.

          The horror!

          • parterre

            The horror of not existing…

          • fiona64

            Sorry, I outgrew existential angst when I was about 12.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What if my parents hadn’t made love that night? What if another sperm had been a stronger swimmer? What if Donovan had never written his song and the Love Story movie had never been made? I might have been named Emily. Oh, the horror.

          • cjvg

            Yeah, that is the thing with non existence, there is no way you can possibly experience horror or anything at all when you do not exist!
            Really, it will be just fine, the world will go on and you will not feel pain when you do not exist

        • ansuz

          I consider myself very fortunate to know definitively that my mother looked out for herself during pregnancy; she very seriously considered abortion and protected herself from being subject to a Catholic hospital’s ethics guidelines when giving birth.
          I am able to know for certain that the sacrifices my mother has made for me were made willingly, and that she didn’t endure any more than she felt she could on my account.

          • parterre

            Yup – – that’s good. Sounds like you made it here in one piece, thanks to her.

          • ansuz

            Yes. I find it terrible that she might have been denied that choice.

          • Jennifer Starr

            ((((((((((hugs)))))))))) for you.

          • ansuz

            Thanks. :)

          • parterre

            Ummm, yeah, that would have been terrible had she been FORCED to carry you. Horrible to be FORCED to carry her child to term.

          • ansuz

            …so you’re pro-choice?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Would you rather that your mom had been forced or that she had made that choice freely?

          • parterre

            Either way gets the same result. Have you ever seen the interview where Penny Marshall talks about how she is glad that abortion was illegal, so she didn’t even consider it, and she’s very glad that she has the child?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m glad that she’s glad that she has a child. And?

          • parterre

            She specifically states that had abortion been legal then, she probably wouldn’t have had her child. So the fact that it was illegal, saved her child. And she’s glad.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I liked Laverne and Shirley when I was a kid. That doesn’t mean that I’m automatically going to want to believe the same things that Penny Marshall does.

          • dudebro

            Liar.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I did so like Laverne & Shirley :) Liked it better than The Brady Bunch.

          • parterre

            I thought a celeb would have more sway with you than a random stranger.

          • dudebro

            Tell her a handsome dude was pregnant, that will sway her.

            Hint: I think she currently digs the dude from Hunter or something.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s funny to think of Fred Dryer being pregnant–lol. Watching Scarecrow and Mrs. King at the moment.

          • dudebro

            I love actor Ben Whishaw atm – he is the new Q in the James Bond movies. Bonus, he looks like my boyfriend. He’s also gay, which is cool. Ben Whishaw, not my bf:P

          • Jennifer Starr

            I also liked watching Maude.

          • dudebro

            Me too!

            Maude had an abortion, back when the subject wasn’t so toxic. I think, however, that she was too old at the time to have actually gotten preggers!

          • fiona64

            Which clearly means you are projecting your own shallowness onto others.

          • cjvg

            Why?

          • dudebro

            Of course they do. And I got an Abyssianian kitty after my 15 year old kitty died. I didn’t really want her, but I got her because I needed something to fill the void. I didn’t like her that much at first, but she has grown on me over the last 5 years and now i can’t imagine life without her.

            Hindsight is always 20/20. I could have EASILY gotten another kitty and I’d be just as happy. Or no kitty, and learned to cope.

            Anyways, you’re ignorant of one important fact. A very powerful drug is producing during pregnancy, by the fetus, to ‘convince’ the parent to love and care for it. It’s called oxytocin, and it is what facilitates bonding. She probably bonded with her child because of this drug.

          • parterre

            Bonded – – because the child was alive.

          • dudebro

            No, because of the drug. How else do you think maternal bonding happens? Selfish genes at work – the offspring has to convince the parent to love and care for it, and the most effficient way is with a strong dose of oxytocin. This doesn’t always work for all uterus owners, which is why you will find some women killing their newborns, or failing to bond for months.

          • fiona64

            An embryo is not a child.

          • fiona64

            Except that’s not what she said at all. Of course, the LieSiteSpews are taking it that way. http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/01/showbiz/celebrity-news-gossip/penny-marshall-memoir/

            Quote:

            Having sex with her
            college sweetheart to cheer him up after a football squad setback,
            Marshall became pregnant and embarked on a hasty teenage marriage. (At City Hall, they were handed a newlywed’s “Starter Kit” consisting of a bar of soap, toothpaste and a small box of Tide.) The pair spent much oftheir honeymoon watching news about John F. Kennedy’s assassination, and things didn’t pick up much after that.

            Many years later she found herself once again pregnant and unmarried, and though close friendJoe Pesci gallantly offered to step in and act as father, she made the difficult decision to have an abortion. “I didn’t want to be tied to thekid’s (biological) father,” Marshall said. “And that situation was one of my life’s only big regrets.”

            In other words, she regrets that she got *pregnant,* not that she made the difficult decision to terminate.

          • ansuz

            “Either way gets the same result.”
            DDDDDDDDDDDDD:

          • dudebro

            How joyously self-centred eh?

            We’ve all been at SPL over the weekend, and we had a lovely chat with one particular gem, who stated that her mom was a horrible, selfish person for even *considering* abortion when she came down with eclampsia. She told us that any woman who wouldn’t risk death and disability for her special snowflake of a prenate does not deserve to be a parent

          • Jennifer Starr

            I couldn’t believe that she said she would disown her own mom and she knew people who had severed relationships with their parents over things like that. Seriously, what the hell?

          • ansuz

            That’s just… wow. What a horrible person.

          • dudebro

            Yeah. Imagines herself some sort of high falutin intellectual too. She noticed that I had changed my nym, so she’s like ‘oooooh, you were banned, I know who you are ! You’re purrtriarhcy! You just want to rile me up! But it won’t work! haha’

            Fucking narcissist.

          • dudebro

            I am ignoring the HL thread btw. It’s full of a bunch of idiotic trolling, because all the fuckwits from Huffpo and Salon have descended like locusts.

          • ansuz

            I’m lmgtfy-ifying guaranteed livable income and other terrible, terrible things that allow people to live decently regardless of how much work they do for the asshats shouting about welfare queens.

          • dudebro

            The head of the Enterprise Institute was on Bill Moyers this weekend. He was spreading the lie that no minimum wage will employ more people, because hey, teenagers need jobs!

            I love how they ignore the fact that if you pay people 2$ an hour, it will NOT be a livable income, because the price of raw materials, alone, is more expensive than someone making 2$ an hour can afford!

            So, either they are really this stupid (I think not) or they are just repeating the lie that no min wage = preferable, in order to get people to at least be thankful that the min wage is what it is right now.

          • StealthGaytheist

            “She told us that any woman who wouldn’t risk death and disability for her special snowflake of a prenate does not deserve to be a parent”

            So she’s in favor of abortion in such cases?

          • dudebro

            Haha.

            The more I talk to forced birthers, the more I realise that they oppose abortion for a couple of reasons:

            1) anxiety over female sexuality. Women = property

            2) existential anxiety. Fear that mere women might have the power of life and death over them.

            It all comes down to fear.

          • fiona64

            You don’t understand the difference between forcing someone to do something and them doing it freely?

            Seriously?

            You’re definitely a rape apologist.

          • cjvg

            Well that is HER CHOICE!

          • dudebro

            Yeah, it kind of is.

            Or are you a rape apologist too?

          • parterre

            No, I just think that once the fetus is there, it is too late. I think the rape exception is debatable – – pretty rare yeah?

          • dudebro

            Why is it too late once it’s there? Why can’t the woman change her mind?

          • parterre

            Live fetus. Too late to kill it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The vast majority of abortions are done in the embryonic stage.

          • parterre

            Okay – – as you say. Live embryo. Too late to kill it.

          • dudebro

            What is a person, parterre?

          • parterre

            What is life, dudebro?

          • fiona64

            “What is Life” is a delightful song by George Harrison.

            Life is a continuum; ova are life, spermatazoa are life. Skin cells are life.

          • dudebro

            Do you not know what a person is? is that why you answered a question with a question?

          • cjvg

            An amoeba is alive, so is a bacteria. Are you suggesting we can not kill these “lives” to benefit us or save our lives? So you must never have taken antibiotics to “kill” of the live forms that were making you ill?!

          • fiona64

            Nope.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nope. Reality is for those who cannot handle drugs. Try it, you might like it. Sanctimony is so masturbatory and so addictive.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Why is it wrong to kill a fetus? Do you oppose killing of any living being under any circumstances?

          • fiona64

            Heh. Parterre is another one of those “pro-lifers” who thinks that the actual born, sapient, sentient children in refugee centers should “just be sent home” to the horrors of sex trafficking, etc. How these imbeciles can ignore the plight of actual children while flipping their collective shit about embryos is beyond me.

          • dudebro

            Scratch a homophobe, and you will find a misogynist *and* a racist.

            Btw, Feemster is backtracking by pretending that he’s gonna foster a Honduran refugee child.

          • fiona64

            Of course he is. ::snort::

          • parterre

            That’s nice of you to make assumptions. Good arguing skills.

          • fiona64

            No assumptions involved, sugarplum. I read your Disqus history.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            oooh you a sneaky liar too. ooooh.

          • parterre

            Because it affects more than just the woman, it also affects the unborn child. It’s a simple fact of biology.

          • dudebro

            So what. It has no claim on her body. No more of a claim than anyone else has.

          • fiona64

            Nope. Only one person involved in a pregnancy: the woman, whom you are very eager to erase from the picture. Why is that?

          • cjvg

            There is no child until viability( approx. 24 weeks gestation, well into the second trimester and when legal abortion is no longer available)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Right. And you should be concerned about my body and its contents because ..? Fricking pervert.

            Definition of abortion:
            : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation—compare miscarriageb : induced expulsion of a human fetusc : expulsion of a fetus of a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy—see contagious abortion, trichomoniasis b, vibrionic abortion
            2
            : arrest of development of an organ so that it remains imperfect or is absorbed
            3
            : the arrest of a disease in its earliest stage

          • fiona64

            Since no woman is required to reveal the reasons for seeking abortion, there’s no real way to know whether it’s “rare.”

            Or are you one of those ignoramuses who believes a “woman’s body has a way of shutting that thing down”?

          • cjvg

            So it is all about the sex. If a women did not voluntarily have sex she does not have to be punished by a forced pregnancy?!

            Thanks for clearing that up

            And just for your information; there are about 30 to 35 thousand rape pregnancies reported each year. These are the number quoted by the CDC, AMA, ACOG, Guttmacher Institute etc. All these organizations also report that the real number is likely much higher since close to 60% of rapes are never even reported!

            Just for a comparison NHTSA says that 33,561 people died in motor vehicle crashes in 2012, are you suggesting these are negligible numbers and of no import too? Or does this number count since it is not just women that will suffer! How about the fact that 35,000 women under age 55 have a heart attack each year (the heart foundation), also a negligible number of victims, they are women after all.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Good thing you are not in charge because you are a stone rapist.

          • ansuz

            Terrible for her, yes. I wouldn’t thank anyone for it, either (being as depressed as I am, I’d probably use it [the fact that I had hurt her] to beat myself up with).

            (I think I understand what you mean, now.)

            EDITed for clarity.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, actually, it would be horrible to be forced to remain pregnant against one’s will. When you abrogate someone’s right to bodily autonomy, you have enslaved them.

          • parterre

            Women have the awesome responsibility and privilege of being the ones who has to choose these things BEFORE the embryo exists. Out of human decency.

          • dudebro

            Sex is a normal part of life. Abstinence for 30+ years if you don’t want children is ridiculous and unrealistic.

            Clearly you are in this for the shaming, however.

          • Ella Warnock

            All that s!utty, married, baby-free sex I’ve had for 30 years. Why, I should be sooo ashamed!

            I’m not, though. ;->

          • fiona64

            Is that your verbose way of saying “If you don’t want to be pregnant, don’t have sex”?

            You are welcome to remain celibate. As for me, I will save France. (h/t to Plum Dumpling)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Damn straight.

          • Suba gunawardana

            You are presuming abortion is wrong. Why is it wrong?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have sex to get an orgasm. I never once had sex to get pregnant. Shit happens and then you die.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Why is it NOT horrible again?

          • dudebro

            wb btw

            if only

            https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2182604032/hEC866CFF/

            I am sorry that you are struggling. Grats on hopefully getting a kitty though.

          • ansuz

            Thanks. I’ve got new meds and a standing every-other-week until December spot on my family doc’s priority list for experimenting until we find a good balance (family doc is communicating with psychiatrist).
            I’ve also got a referral to a six week inpatient stay in a semiprivate facility (for a specific treatment program) and, after that, a spot in a twelve week outpatient program. The request for the trained kitty will be put in by the various people I’ve been seeing while I’m at the six week inpatient program, and I should have the cat a few weeks into the outpatient program.

            So, yeah. Now that my parents believe me when I say that I’m not well, I’ve got all the help I could ask for.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Kitty hugs are great :)

          • dudebro

            Yeah..

            Try saying that when you’re trying to type and the little fucker is crawling all over your shoulder like a parrot!

          • Suba gunawardana

            That’s a “kitty right”, as is walking all over the keyboard…

          • dudebro

            Indeed.

            You know how you are always talking about how adoption isn’t the answer?

            http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/texas-mandatory-adoption-seminar-before-abortion#comment-1516730656

            “”As an adoptive mother I must say that forced pregnancy does nothing for the betterment of the child born. In my case the mother used drugs and alcohol throughout her entire pregnancy. DHS was involved with the parents on three separate occasions and nothing ever came of the investigations. The parents pawned the baby off on anyone they could find that would take her. She was subjected to many dangerous situations repeatedly. DHS left the child in the situation. The father was in jail AGAIN when the mother finally abandoned the baby in a trailer with two teenagers. The 21 month old little girl was positive for meth when she was finally removed. The ultimate goal of DHS is reunification with the bio parents. DHS workers would pick her up for their MANDATORY supervised visits with her parents and she would vomit every single time. She’s not quite 5 and has major fears and struggles related to her treatment and abandonment. Loud noises and many other things frighten her. Her future success will most definitely be affected by her experiences, both prenatal and after birth. It is egocentric and naïve to think the children of parents forced to birth babies will care for the fetus or infant. How many medically fragile, drug addicted and dysfunctional people can our society continue to support? No one is “pro-abortion” but every woman should be able to make her own decisions based on her particular situation.””

          • Suba gunawardana

            Exactly! Thanks for the link.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I’m glad my mother had a choice. I used to think that was a brilliant argument against abortion, by the way–but then I grew up.

          • parterre

            Oh. It doesn’t apply anymore? Since you “grew up”?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why do you think it should apply?

          • parterre

            Oh, I thought we were talking about the fact that your Mom made a choice to carry you to term, and that you are probably grateful / happy about that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            As I said before, I am happy that she had a choice.

          • lady_black

            Existential angst, no less silly than saying “Aren’t you grateful your father didn’t wear a condom on the night you should have been conceived?” Most people are happy that they are alive. But nobody is sad that they never existed, and a mature attitude is knowing full well that if you had never been born 1) you wouldn’t never know it, and 2) the world would have gone on just fine without you. These arguments stem from the self-centered “What if my mother had aborted when pregnant with me? There wouldn’t be any MEEEEEEE!”

          • Sharon Diehl

            My 86 year old escaped-catholic mother is very pro-choice…and is looking forward to voting for Hillary in 2016.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Same here only my Mom is 93.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Sure people are grateful to their mothers for RAISING them with love.

            That doesn’t mean ALL biological mothers deserve gratitude just for spitting out their children (which any idiot can do), or all women should be forced to give birth.

        • goatini

          My Mother was pro-choice.

        • lady_black

          My mother was pro-choice, and did have an abortion. You’re barking up the wrong tree here. Lots of teenage prolifers believe that is a great argument. But it isn’t an argument at all.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          My Mother had an abortion when it was illegal.

          • dudebro

            The histrionic folks at SPL are making a big deal about how emotionally damaging it can be to lose a sibling to abortion.

            “I don’t have a brother to love because you killed him mommy!!!!”

            Seriously.

          • fiona64

            Tullia is still going on with that crap? Really? I have a sibling; my brother is three years younger than me. A terminated pregnancy does not a sibling make.

          • dudebro

            No, other morons. Of course, the most emotional happen to be from LAN…big surprise right?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What’s the link?

          • dudebro
          • fiona64

            Mine, too.

    • lady_black

      Pre-natal specialists are called OB-GYNs.

      • parterre

        OB-GYNs specialize in maternal prenatal care. There are pediatricians who specialize in fetal prenatal care.

        • fiona64

          Citation needed.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Two patients only if the woman CHOSE to carry the pregnancy, in which case the appropriate doctor is an obstetrician. Otherwise there is only one patient, the woman. To compromise her safety & well-being for any reason is a violation of the doctor’s fiduciary duty.

    • fiona64

      Um, hint to parterre? When you try to delete your posts, they still show up.

      • Jennifer Starr

        It’s not just his posts–he actually deleted his entire disqus account. Weird.

        • fiona64

          I bet it’s because s/he couldn’t figure out how to make his/her history private. When I called him/her out for her racist remarks and s/he said I was speculating, I said there was no need to speculate when one could read a Disqus history.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I think you’re right.

          • dudebro

            Which is one reason why I like to gossip about Disqus histories on other threads, because I don’t want them to know that we can read their history:P

            After I mentioned myintx’ history, she made it private.

          • goatini

            What a little coward she is, but not a surprise.

  • Dawn9476

    Republicans are doing this while they are gutting programs that would help a family raise a child with severe disabilities like Down’s syndrome. They are also gutting the education funding that would go into helping a child with a milder case of Down’s syndrome learn basic skills to lead a productive life.

  • P. McCoy

    So? Non sentient, in a 100% paracitical relationship with the host body- equals not a human being (babies exists at birth!).

    • fiona64

      Lindsey’s on our side of the fence, P. She’s talking about idiotic CPC/anti-choice lies.

      • P. McCoy

        Ok, apologies to Lindsay.

  • cjvg

    And I spoke to many women who expressed relief and gratitude that an abortion was available to them when they needed one!

    There are many choices in live, plenty of woman also regret having children, would you like to pass a law forbidding the choice to have kids? Maybe we should pass laws forbidding women to drive also, after all they will probably regret it when they get in a car accident.

    Are you aware that there are women who suffer from PTSD after giving birth and who suffer from Post natal depression, shall we outlaw choosing to get pregnant and choosing to have children since women might regret that?

    What exactly is your point, do you think women should not be allowed to make any decisions at all because they might regret them? Should we go back to the time were women were owned by their fathers and then their husbands? You know it is very possible (in fact most likely) that women severely regret being forced to live with decision made by others (who will never have to live with the actual consequences of these decisions)for them

  • VeggieTart

    Will someone please tell Jim Marshall that you can’t be pro-gun and pro-life? The two are contradictory. And can the Republicans stop bitching that any health care legislation that makes it easier for people to get insurance is putting a government bureaucrat between patients and their doctors? All these laws requiring waiting periods and medically unnecessary ultrasounds and scripts authored by anti-choicers with the sole purpose of tricking women into continuing unwanted pregnancies are putting government bureaucrats between women and their doctors.

  • fiona64

    ACOG says that the ultrasounds are unnecessary and, in fact, violate standards of practice. http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/03/08/virginias-pre-abortion-ultrasound-law-medically-unsound-violates-guidelines-of-american-college-of-obstetricians-and-gynecologists/

    Reality says that they don’t change anyone’s minds. http://www.salon.com/2014/01/10/being_forced_to_view_an_ultrasound_doesnt_change_womens_decisions_about_abortion/

    As with the above, the rest of your post is fact-free twaddle.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      “you’re a fucking liar.’
      …………..
      Second that. Remember her introduction statement? She was going to debate us “respectfully.”

      • dudebro

        She made a big deal about that. I think that her whole ploy was to passively aggressively insult then claim martyrdom.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          She broke first. Ha ha ha ha ha. I wish I could give her the bitchslapping she so richly deserves, figuratively speaking of course.

      • Jennifer Starr

        She actually went on a Catholic board a while back, telling them that she was ‘evangelizing’ to us and asking for prayers.

        • dudebro

          No fucken way…

          Man.

        • fiona64

          Oh, FFS. Is *that* what she’s calling it now?

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Evangelizing? I am a Catholic. If she said this crap to me at Mass in real life I would punch her right in her fooking face.
          And Pope Frankie told her to cut this stuff out and do real good works. Faithful, ain’t she?

      • Suba gunawardana

        I would have put “debate” in quotation, since what she’s been doing here is certainly not debating. :)

        • dudebro

          I believe that she only ever answered you once, by replying that she was oh so busy, and just didn’t have time!

          • Suba gunawardana

            She keeps saying “you all misrepresent our position on abortion”, and yet won’t answer a simple yes or no question “Do you want to make abortion illegal?”

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Truth! She is doing shaming, blaming, lecturing, preaching and threatening us with her bad opinion of us. Snore … zzzzzz.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          She is terrified to debate you, Suba. Has been since you submitted your first post to her. Refuses to even acknowledge you except to take a shot at you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She doesn’t listen to people–she doesn’t engage in dialogue, she doesn’t even want to debate. All she’s been doing is preaching at us. She sees us as potential conversion prospects and nothing more.

          • fiona64

            I just lit her up, after she said “My points must be hitting home with you,” by telling her that yes, they did: her assertions that my parents should have gestated the doomed pregnancy I talked about, her assertions that organ donation was immoral, and her assertions that pro-choice people didn’t help others had indeed “hit home,” because she was disgusting and amoral to make those statements.

            Like I said, if she were standing in front of me saying those things, I’d be in jail and her teeth would be in a paper bag.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            She is an ignorant annoying sanctimonious twat.

          • fiona64

            She had the audacity the other day to “suggest” that I “learn to engage in substantive debate.” Really? Really? From the sow that never has a single source to back her up and has openly admitted that she never bothers to look at the sources we supply that prove OUR points and disprove hers?

            Ugh. As I’ve said before, I am not ordinarily a violent person, but I want to knock her ugly head right off.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She has never actually debated us–never even attempted to debate. I’m beginning to doubt that she’s even really read our posts, since she asks us the same questions over and over even after we’ve given her an answer. And the fact that she doesn’t even bother to look at the links is very telling. All she has done and continues to do is spout various talking points and proselytize to us.

  • goatini

    Well, that was another utterly fact-free load of nonsense from one of the usual suspects, accompanied by the annoying squeak of the world’s smallest violin.

    Out of that jumble of insane projection, hysterical hyperbole, lugubrious obfuscation, and total and complete BS, I think the choice morsel that I’ll remark on will be the FACT that it’s the UNTRAINED “counselors” at the NON-MEDICAL facility that are coached to prey upon potential victims with FALSE blame, shame, and guilt – because if she walks out the facility door, the opportunity to exploit her for $$$$$ (5 figures) walks with her.

    And since over 90% of all safe, legal pregnancy terminations occur long before the 20th week, the thumb-sucking comment is just evil. Especially if a woman is terminating due to a dire fetal diagnosis.

    These vile forced-birthers aim to apply as much mental and emotional torment as possible to innocent citizens. It takes a special kind of hate to not only do these things, but to take such obvious slavering relish in them.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Well said.

  • fiona64

    This article just came out today: http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20140804/ace2e5a8-b71a-444c-9e87-b2f63a8e806b

    An Australian couple paid a Thai woman (well, she’s only been partially paid at this point) to act as a surrogate … and when the twins were born, only took the perfectly healthy female infant. They left the birth mother with unpaid bills and a male infant with Down Syndrome that they didn’t want because he wasn’t perfect. So much for the anti-choice touting that adoption is the solution in all cases.

  • prolifemama

    As I’ve said before, fiona, I don’t work at a CPC, and have not ever seen a “playbook”. I speak from sidewalk counseling experience. I have never shouted at anyone under any circumstances, nor have those with whom I’ve stood.
    I learned long ago that if a prolife stance isn’t based on love, it is nothing (John Powell, SJ – Abortion: The Silent Holocaust – 1981).

    • fiona64

      Liar.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Love for whom or what? Promoting child abuse is not excusable just because you did it out of “love” for your religion.

    • Jennifer Starr

      There’s nothing about sidewalk ‘counseling’ that even remotely resembles actual counseling.

  • Suba gunawardana

    -You are claiming that malpractice by a few individuals merits shutting down a whole profession. There are plenty of ob/gyns and GPs who commit malpractice too. Should those fields be abolished for the same reason?

    -Abortion certainly is necessary to save the mother’s life in some
    circumstances, but let’s consider ONLY those circumstances where it’s not. Are you claiming you have no right to kill except to save your own life? Back to my prior point about the billions of animals and plants killed daily for all kinds of frivolous reasons. You don’t practice what you preach.

  • Jennifer Starr

    So you think anyone who needs a new heart, liver, lungs, kidneys, etc. should just die? And yes, if the donor is brain dead, they are really dead.

    • fiona64

      Yep. Brain death is the requirement … and organs must be removed within a certain amount of time or they begin to necrotize.

      Just like what happened with Marlise Munoz. :-(

  • Jennifer Starr

    That doesn’t answer the question of why you prefer putting women through invasive and unnecessary surgery with a safer method such as methotrexate is available.

  • fiona64

    You are not even remotely pro-life. You’re just anti-choice. And still a goddamned liar.

    No love, a registered organ donor

  • fiona64

    it is NEVER necessary to save the mother’s life,

    Why don’t you go tell that fucked-up lie to Savita Halapannavar’s widower?

    (Yes, the gloves are officially off now.)

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    How may abortions have you had? And who did them for you? The local vet?

  • Suba gunawardana

    Once again, how stupid do you think women are? Anyone who gets dissuaded from abortion by the “thumb-sucking” nonsense is guided solely by emotion, and is not fit to be a parent to begin with.

    Anguish of abortion? IF that exists, at least you are just facing the consequences of your OWN decision. What about the anguish of forced birth? Who takes responsibility for the suffering of the unwanted child? You? So far I’ve seen no sign of that.