‘Hobby Lobby,’ and a Woman’s Right to Sexual Exploration


The recent Hobby Lobby decision is yet another lyric in the redundant soundtrack of American religious conservatives. There are moralistic variations in these attempts to restrict freedoms—notably, a woman’s freedom to choose passion, pleasure, and sexual exploration beyond the puritanical foundation that reigns supreme in this country. Birth control affords women (and men) the ability to explore their sexuality, consciously.

Restrictions on access to birth control are at odds with the fact that sexuality, for most of us, takes time to understand and appreciate. Sex is an outlet, a release, a roadmap to understanding who we are. And it provides an opportunity to bond, to connect with another human being.

For women, birth control can support us in our desire to understand our sexuality without life-altering consequences. Over time, we cultivate a personal voice, aesthetic, and culinary palette. We determine what clothes befit us, what hairstyles, what home furnishings—all things that keep industries afloat. Unfortunately, there is no industry that targets female desire. One could argue that the sex toy industry does. However, in the overall American marketplace, female desire and pleasure is neither supported or promoted. As a result, there is no counter-attack to the religious conservative onslaught to restricting our desires. There is no group, no lobbyists, no ideology that advocates for female pleasure. Therefore, conversations about our bodies and birth control stay within the confines of conservative ideology. We have to begin to advocate for female sexuality and pleasure, even in progressive circles, if we are to move the conversation forward.

Diversity will change the landscape. As we diversify industries, especially Hollywood, with women who want to change the way our sexuality is represented in media, new ways of being sexually satisfied and seeing women as recipients of pleasure rather than objects to pleasure men will emerge.

Sexuality, for women, has been the least explored topic in our culture. With few exceptions—among them Orange Is the New Blackemphasis on female pleasure is lacking and long overdue. In Hollywood, displaying women’s breasts or putting a woman’s body on display is code for “this is sexuality.” This sexuality belongs to men. American culture is dedicated to male sexuality. This limited view of sexuality engenders jealousy among women. It sets up a false standard of beauty, and women vie for the attention of men, negating our right to seek and understand our own desires.

I do hear the argument from some of my lesbian friends that the regale of women’s bodies is pleasurable for them too. I am happy that they get to receive this byproduct. However, the intention and the construction is strictly to entice heterosexual men. Diversity is terribly lacking in this country’s construct of sex and sexual pleasure. Heterosexual female pleasure is still the red herring on the big screen, little screen, and even in bedrooms.

The desire to restrict birth control is, at its heart, the desire to stop women from “sleeping around.” This restrictive sexual covenants began with the Puritans, and is woven into the fabric of our sheets. In these sheets, we negotiate with men and boys who also feel that birth control (using a condom) is a nuisance. Similar to the Hobby Lobby folks, these men see a woman’s need for protection, for control over her body, for a desire to experience her sexuality without the risk of pregnancy or disease, as not of interest to them. What interests them is the climax, the end result. For men and boys, in the private spaces of negotiation, their orgasm is the goal. Neither takes into account the needs, financial pressures, health concerns, or any other interests of women. The culture reinforces this message with a film industry that places male sexuality at its center.

Birth control levels the playing field. At the very least, it gives women another barrier of protection when we desire to explore our sexuality, take “risks,” or simply choose not to become pregnant in a monogamous relationship.

Sexuality is about connection. Conservative messaging around sexuality includes words like “responsibility.” There is no accounting for “risk” in America’s conversation about sex. “Risk” is associated with poverty. Poor people engage in “risky” sexual practices because they are “genetically” coded for it. The belief of conservatives is that poor people do not have sense or reason enough to engage in “responsible” sex practice. The reality is, all classes participate in “risky” sexual behavior. The sexual life of the poor is no different than the sexual life of any other class.

In every class, the pressures of financial marginalization, lack of employment, and stress increases the chance of taking greater risks for connection. Our ability to navigate our choices before and after the “risk” differs depending on our station in life and our options. Sexual risk—sex without a condom, sex with a stranger, sex under the influence—is commonplace. It can be a part of what fuels sexual desire and intrigue. With more education, individuals may be moved to take risks but make more informed choices.

I would like to see women and girls rally for access to birth control and sexual exploration. I am tired of seeing generations of women who are denied birth control and are saddled with raising children before they understand who they are and what they want. With a more gender-balanced view of sexuality in our culture and/or in media, women may feel more free to engage in behaviors that satisfy us and we may lessen the number of unintended pregnancies and failed marriages that can occur because of a biased sexuality.

In 2014, women and girls still have to negotiate partners who carry the cultural message that men and their climax is the purpose for sexual encounters. Yes, this is changing. But, it is still the dominant message in our culture. In film and television, there is little negotiation about sexual preferences before sex (especially heterosexual sex) takes place, and male climax is usually the central point. Conversations in media, on film, and in our bedrooms have to center around what makes the woman or girl comfortable. If one is able to advocate for themselves in the bedroom, one can advocate for themselves in other areas of their lives.

One would think access to birth control and the greater women’s movement would have shifted the dialogue about female sexuality. And, yes, in many ways it has. However, it did not translate, in a significant way, to film and television. Nor to the overall political discourse around our bodies. The Hobby Lobby decision lets us know we still have work to do.

It is 2014, and we’re still having intense conversations in our culture about, for example, Rihanna deciding to wear a revealing dress to an awards ceremony. Conversations like these either dismantle the pop star or focus only on what’s “right” or “wrong.” These conversations have nothing to do with female sexual pleasure. Rihanna clearly wanted to wear a revealing dress; she liked it. But a nude woman is nothing new in our culture. Expressing our comfort level with wearing revealing clothing can be a part of the conversation about female sexuality. However, I have yet to see a visual that reflects true sexual liberation from our current slate of pop stars. Jay Z on his knees pleasuring Beyonce would be a start.

Our vanguard content creators have to reinvent the idea of female sexual representation. What pleases women? Yes, pleasing our partner pleases us. We got that. But what does our pleasure look like? It is a question that needs to be answered. Answering it will be revolutionary.

Women have the right to explore our sexuality. The idea that a woman’s sexuality is purely for childbearing is outdated. Sure, for those who choose to live this idea, it belongs in the bedroom. But imposing that idea on others is just wrong. Sexuality can be complex and erupts for various reasons.

Birth control is critical to being able to explore our sexuality. Gone are the days of women always being “barefoot and pregnant.” These are the days when a woman’s desire to experience pleasure is central to her choice of partner and that partner’s ability to deliver her pleasure, vertically, horizontally, or otherwise.  If we shift emphasis to female pleasure, it will shatter the glass bedroom ceiling.

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  • fiona64

    Birth control levels the playing field.

    Frankly, I think this is what pisses off the misogynistic religious right more than anything else.

    • BelligerentBruncher

      You want a level playing field? Great, so do I.

      Make the pill OTC and pay for it yourself, just like men do for condoms.

      • Shan

        That’s not leveling the playing field. Leveling the playing field would be men getting a similar, reversible form of birth control covered on insurance just like women have.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Actually, we are very close to a male birth control pill. One that does not pollute water with damaging hormonal chemicals.

        • Tweetiebird57

          The problem with male contraceptives is that males refuse to take them because of the side effects. When it came time for trials on several male contraceptives, they couldn’t get enough men to participate and if you can’t get men interested enough to try it for free, you won’t be able to market it. This is why there is not a male contraceptive equitable to female birth control pills, no interest.

      • fiona64

        Hey, Chris. I already found a source for you to obtain a lifetime supply of condoms that will be a perfect fit for you, and I’m sure I could get everyone here to contribute 50 cents or so to the fund. Do you want me to remind you again of where you can get a case of finger cots for $21?

        A truly level playing field, as Shan notes, would be prescription hormonal contraception for men. Unfortunately, the versions currently being tested tend to make men sterile.

        Now, in your case, I might personally consider that a blessing … but not all men are little teenaged twit-boys.

        • L-dan

          Slight side track: Honestly, if it doesn’t have other side effects, I can imagine some men being interested in something providing non-surgical sterilization. Hell, I know I would be.

          • fiona64

            As would a lot of people. Unfortunately, the result is not at all predictable … which is clearly problematic.

          • L-dan

            Figured as much. I’d still find it useful as an additional method/backup. For example, those folks in the other article practicing the withdrawal method would have a higher rater of success if something like this at least reduced their fertility. Essentially, this sounds like a valid avenue for more research.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          I see you are consistent in being condescending towards males where ever you go.

          • Shan

            Until you’ve apologized to all the women you’ve made condescending remarks to and then promise to do better from now on, you don’t really have any right to criticize Fiona for behaving the same way you do.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Sorry to burst your controlling bubble. You and your cronies have zero effect or control over me. Moreover, I owe NO apology to anyone here, including you. I know it is difficult to digest being called out for the damaging effect of the material I have bore witness to, including the patently contemptuous malice towards the men and women who question your ideology and content herein.

          • redlemon

            So you get all condescending and hoity toity when talking with us wimminz after coming into our space and not just automatically agreeing with your “enlightened” ways, but when you get a taste of your own actions and words in return, you accuse us of being mean and act like you’ve taken the high road of moral superiority.

            Maturity isn’t really your thing, is it?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You said absolutely nothing meaningful. A common defect I do notice in this group of women is a perpetual need to have a winner and a loser. Higher and lower intellect.

            I am not affected the slightest by being slighted. Carry on.

          • redlemon

            Says the man who whined in the previous article that women were calling him names and not being nice enough. A common defect I notice in you is your inability to take what you dish out and your ability to ignore what you don’t like.

            ‘Tis a pity, I suppose.

          • fiona64

            They really do remind me of angry toddlers. I’m serious.

          • redlemon

            My toddler throws less tantrums then this.

          • L-dan

            And projection, so much projection.

          • lady_black

            Then STOP WHINING.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You and your cronies have zero effect or control over me. Moreover, I owe NO apology to anyone here, including you. I know it is difficult to digest being called out for the damaging effect of the material I have bore witness to, including the patently contemptuous malice towards the men and women who question your ideology and content herein.”

            Ooooh, I see. Only men are allowed to condescend to women. Thankfully we got the MRAs here to explain it to our dumb wimmin brains.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Be as condescending as you like. It only reflects poorly on yourself as it shows an inability to effective communication or effective negotiation.

          • kitler

            Every word out of your mouth only reinforces the fact that you’re an idiot

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You remind me of a dog chasing its tail. One day, just one day, you may get a grip on it.

          • lady_black

            So get a grip on your OWN tail and prove men and boys are being harmed by women using birth control pills, as opposed to pregnant women, pregnant livestock, dairy cows, chemicals in plastic that behave like estrogen in the environment, etc. That’s all we’re asking. You want women to give up the greatest innovation in all of history, you better be prepared with something better than “the Daily Mail sez so.”

          • Unicorn Farm

            ……….. you’ve got to be joking. Right back at you, troll.

            You either have a lot of nerve or are painfully stupid to write this, when two seconds ago you wrote “You said absolutely nothing meaningful. A common defect I do notice in this group of women is a perpetual need to have a winner and a loser. Higher and lower intellect.”

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Checkmate. You have no more moves left, so you go on the verbal attack.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Are you kidding? You’ve provided absolutely no substantive response to ANYTHING ive said on this thread.

            Where’s your proof that men and boys are harmed by estrogen in the water?

            Where’s your legal mechanism for preventing this harm?
            How are you going to file that class action?

            If you don’t opt for a legal solution, what OTHER solution do you have?

            You have answered ZERO of these questions despite blathering all over this thread about how bad it is that WOMEN PEE.

            Which one of us has no moves left?

          • lady_black

            When you get banned, don’t say you weren’t warned.

          • Shan

            “Sorry to burst your controlling bubble. You and your cronies have zero effect or control over me”

            If we didn’t, you wouldn’t still be here. But that’s not because we’re tying to control you, it’s because you can’t control yourself.

          • fiona64

            And that’s to say nothing of the fact that Attila-come-lately here has no idea that Chris has been banned from here four times so far and thus has a history with us.

            Of course, he doesn’t care, because Dudebro …

          • fiona64

            It must really piss you off that you are unable to control women.

            Get used to the disappointment.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Who would want to control anyone. It is far more enjoyable when you do things I want, without you ever realizing it. Ever play chess?

          • lady_black

            You’re failing miserably.

          • fiona64

            We’re all laughing at you, Prince Charming … but I rather imagine you’re used to that.

          • expect_resistance

            Flagged for Defamation of fiona’s character.

      • StealthGaytheist

        Women don’t get themselves pregnant . Men benefit as much from low cost contraceptives of every kind as women do.

      • kitler

        Condons are cheap and otc

        • Tanya Nguyễn

          No, condoms are NOT cheep. they sound cheep, if your sex life is like mine at 40. but if your sex life is like mine was when i was first married, it’s far far far more than the pill. just saying….

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Tanya. Oh Tanya. The feminist kitler has made her statement that condoms are cheap and OTC. How fucking dare you question her you forced-birther troll.

            You will toe the party line and like it. please apologize to kitler right now.

      • expect_resistance

        You are a vocal proponent of OTC birth control pills then
        why don’t you go lobby the FDA to make it happen. You repeating the same post over and over isn’t helping.

        • BelligerentBruncher

          I do lobby for that.

          unfortunately it’s opposed by feminists like yourself because we know what this is all about. You are cheap and you don’t want to pay for it out of pocket. That’s all.

          • Shan

            We’d be happy to have male BC covered on insurance.

          • Tweetiebird57

            The reason that birth control pills will never be OTC is because of the many serious health risks associated with taking it. You have to be under a doctor’s care and have regular health screenings by that doctor. These pills aren’t a one size fits all medication, and you really need to leave this up to the experts, clearly you know nothing about the topic.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            The medical experts think that it should be OTC. Clearly you haven’t done your research if you think the “serious health risks” are any more than when OTC aspirin causes.

          • Tweetiebird57

            I leave the research up to the experts, and those experts, including the FDA, are against making birth control pills OTC.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Show me where taking aspirin increases your risk of heart attacks and heart disease, strokes, blood clots, cancer, I can go on and on. You are a nation aren’t you.

        • fiona64

          He can’t lobby for that, because little teenaged Dudebros have no power … much to his chagrin.

      • Tanya Nguyễn

        I’m tired of this nonense. We. **DO** “pay for it ourselves”. It is a medication, like every other prescribed medication. (or it is a medical procedure in the case of IUD or implants). I, my company, or the govt if I make insufficient amounts of money to live on, pay a premium which covers some or all of our medicinal costs. “the pill” is a medicine. Just like the drugs you take for diabetes, or for emotional disorders, or for high blood pressure and yes, for better longer lasting erections!

        Why is this such an issue with you? Do you think that all medication should be OTC paid for by the individual. or just one that lets women have sex?

        • BelligerentBruncher

          You’re insurance company doesn’t cover ALL prescription medication. Never has. Never will.

          • colleen2

            Well, yes. That’s why we BUY HEALTH INSURANCE you pathetic ninny.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Your HEALTH insurance company doesn’t cover all prescription medication. Never has. Never will.

            Is that more clear, Colleen?

          • Shan

            It doesn’t cover all devices or procedures, either. What’s your point?

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Why don’t you read the thread in context before commenting?

          • Shan

            I did. The context I’m seeing is that you seem to have chronic butthurt over the fact that condoms aren’t covered on insurance so you keep arguing that BC pills shouldn’t be, either, and should be OTC just like condoms. Despite the fact that I and many others around here have said we think it would be WONDERFUL if an equivalent insurance-covered reversible contraceptive for men existed. And the fact that, as we have pointed out over and over again, BC is *already* being “paid for” via the insurance premiums that both women AND men pay them.

            Also for more context: What you don’t seem to understand is that insurance companies LIKE to cover BC.. They are for-profit companies and have vested financial reasons for covering it, just the same as they have financial reasons for not covering other things because the cost doesn’t. I’m sure they would snap up the opportunity to cover male BC in an instant.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            BC is not already paid if it is not covered on the plan. It’s really that simple.

            “What you don’t seem to understand is that insurance companies LIKE to cover BC.”

            Obviously that’s not 100% correct or this wouldn’t be an issue. Some companies choose to not offer BC coverage And that is their prerogative.

          • Shan

            “Some companies choose to not offer BC coverage And that is their prerogative.”

            What companies? Insurance companies or businesses who offer health insurance plans to their employees. There’s a difference.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Insurance underwriters have stated that it costs employers more for policies that DO NOT contain contraceptive coverage, than those that do. Before the ACA mandate 89% of employers covered all 20 FDA approved contraceptives, including Hobby Lobby. The mandate brought all employers in line with industry standards that preventative care medications and devices be covered at no cost to employees. Contraceptives have always been a part of preventative healthcare, and should have always been covered the same as always other medications in the classification.

          • colleen2

            The notion that it’s legitimate to discriminate against women by denying coverage for prescription medications virtually ALL women use, a prescription with a wide variety of medical uses, a prescription that PREVENTS CONCEPTION, a notion that women and women alone should be signed out and discriminated against in this manner because of the idiot beliefs of a tiny minority, is absurd and pathetic and precisely what we should expect of the ridiculous and revolting men and women of the Republican party. How CLEAR is that, you moron?

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Oh no. You mean to tell me that women are biologically different the men?

            I didn’t know that. Tell me more.

            And virtually ALL women use contraception? Interesting. I’ll be sure and let all the post-menopausal women out there know about that.

            BTW, flagged for personal insults, Colleen.

          • Tweetiebird57

            99% of women that are sexually active use contraceptives, compared to 11% percent of sexually active men that use condoms. Given the abysmal statistics of male responsibility, is it any wonder that women are fed up with men’s interference in our reproductive healthcare?

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Hobby Lobby isn’t interfering in anyone’s healthcare.

            The HL employees are free to use whatever form of contraception they so desire.

          • Tweetiebird57

            The owners of Hobu Lobby are forcing their asinine religious beliefs onto their employees and denying them benefits that every other employee of for profit companies are entitled to receive.

            And the Greens are violating their employees civil rights by forcing them to supplement their religious beliefs. Employees earn their benefits and as such no employer has the right to determine how or where they use those benefits. The Supreme Court was wrong in their decision and it won’t stand.

            And neither will idiotic and asinine attempts by people like you, to try to explain away your utter and complete contempt for females.

          • Tweetiebird57

            They already should have been. Contraceptives are under preventative care and as such, have to be covered at no cost just like all the other medications and devices in that classification. Which is why the ACA mandated that contraceptives be covered at no cost, employers have been openly discriminating against women for years in their healthcare coverage. I haven’t paid a dime for any of my preventative care meds in over five years.

          • Tweetiebird57

            They cover preventative care meds and devices, of which contraceptives fall under. How about we actually leave this up to the experts, the medical community.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            The medical community thinks that the pill should be OTC.

          • Tweetiebird57

            No they don’t, every OBGYN organization is against it, and they are the doctors that write the majority of prescriptions.

          • BelligerentBruncher
          • Tweetiebird57

            Watch your mouth, you don’t have the balls to take me on sweetie.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Wow, that’s some pretty tough words from someone who just clearly had her ass handed to her.

            But then again, maybe you don’t consider ACOG to be an OBGYN organization. I mean, then maybe your comment above would make some sense.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Did you actually read the information that you provided the link to? Because if you did you would see that that is the OPINION of a committee and doesn’t represent the OPINION of the entire organization. You might actually want to read the entire thing, including the research and concerns.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “OPINION of a committee and doesn’t represent the OPINION of the entire organization”

            Wrong.

            Tell ya what. Why don’t you show me the ACOG Committee opinion that opposes this viewpoint in a more recent decision.

          • Tweetiebird57

            The OPINION isn’t a DECISION by the organization itself. You sure are dense, you have absolutely no comprehension of how academia works, do you? I’d almost feel sorry for you if you weren’t so pathetic.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            The ACOG Committee opinions are, in fact, the stance taken by the organization.

            I’m not really sure why you think that they aren’t.

            And what does “academia” have to do with any of this?

            Look, I’m sorry that you were wrong when you wrote “every OBGYN organization is against it.” I hope that you learned something new today.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Most insurance plans cover preventative care medications at no cost and have for about five years now. Contraceptives are listed under preventative care medications by the medical community and the insurance industry. The mandate that all 20 FDA approved contraceptives have to be covered at no cost, is bringing the standard to where it should already have been.

      • Tweetiebird57

        First of all, condoms are only used by 11 % of the male population, if men were more responsible and proactive when it came to birth control, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

        Second, no prescription or doctor’s visit is required for a condom, and more important, contraceptives are a major part of preventative healthcare for women and as such, are to be covered under health plans just like all other preventative care medications and devices that have no co-pays.

        It’s about time that men learn to either be responsible or stay the help out of our way so that we can be.

        • BelligerentBruncher

          Great, so make the pill OTC.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Why are you so hell bent on making birth control pills over the counter? They aren’t even the safest or most reliable, in fact, many people are advocating that they be taken off the market completely because of the seriousness of the health risks.

            All contraceptives are to be free under all health plans, the same as every other medication and medical device under the same classification. There’s nothing left to discuss.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Not all medications are free.

            Not all medications are covered under health insurance.

            It has always been up to the insurance company to determine what they do cover, and what they do not. Obamacare tried to overstep into the private sector….and it failed.

          • Tweetiebird57

            Our government determines the standards of care that all insurance companies must follow. You didn’t even read the information in the link that you provided, if you had you would have noticed where it states that contraceptives are preventative care medications and must be covered at no cost in health plans. The ACA mandate brings contraceptives in line with the category they fall under ,preventative care.

            There are standards that our government has forced the insurance industry to follow such as covering mammograms, pap smears, prostate checks, all of which were not covered but now are under preventative care. Every insurance underwriter will tell you that it’s in their best interests to cover all contraceptives including abortion, because it’s cheaper than pregnancy, childbirth, and healthcare for infants and children.

            And covering contraceptives is better for women, their families, marriage, society and our government, which includes you. Before widespread contraceptive use pregnancy and childbirth were the number one cause of death for women, and still is in third world countries. The World Health Organization states that contraceptives are the civil right of every woman in the world.

      • Christine svensson

        Levelling the field would be men having 50 % of the pregnancies.

    • expect_resistance

      Yes, the fact that women might have the right to self determination.

      • Christine svensson

        Isn’t it awful? I am upset. We should all learn to do as women did in victorian England, lie down, be quiet and think of England.

  • marisella

    A women have a right what she wants done with her body. Birth control is not only use to stop conception. It is also beneficial for other women ailment like Menstrual problems. Who right is it for a group of white men in congress to decide. Sexuality is always a man issue. Women should be the one choose whats right for her.

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      The use of birth control pills also puts oestrogen into our drinking water when women pee. Water purifications systems are not equipped to filter out unwanted hormones.

      • Suba gunawardana

        So the answer is to stop using birth control pills; breed countless numbers of children until there’s no more standing room; and let the water be polluted with human waste instead? :)

        • Shan

          No. Women need to stop having sex. And stop peeing. Or maybe only feminist women. Their pee is pure evil.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Yep… Peeing while on the pill should be made illegal & a punishable offense.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Peeing chemicals I end up drinking that is harmful to me should be addressed. I believe in restorative justice not punitive unless we find after restorative measures you continue to violate said measure.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Demonstrate that the extra estrogen in water harms you.
            What cause of action do you think should be brought against women who pee estrogen into the water?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Why does it need to be an action against women? Do you realize there are other ways of resolving issues than by pure full on conflict between men and women?

            If we have oestrogen that is finding its way back to our drinking water and having an effect on humans, fish and other wildlife, then we need to seek a way to ensure this hormone does not find its way into our waters.

            Surely we can accomplish this without an attack on women or their use of a birth control means as you inferred.

            In any event, the pill is not 100%. Perhaps the answer is the male birth control pill.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Why does it need to be an action against women? Do you realize there are other ways of resolving issues than by pure full on conflict between men and women?”

            I said “cause of action.” As in, legal solution to this terrible problem. Do you think there should be one?

            “In any event, the pill is not 100%. Perhaps the answer is the male birth control pill.”
            I do hope there is a male pill one day. I really do. Preferably, soon! But I will still be taking my birth control pill.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            When we have a male pill, and it is coming soon, clinical testing is being done now, men will no longer need to trust that you actually DID take all the pills as you are supposed to and claimed to.

            Why does it need to be a legal solution? The very worst place to negotiate is an a courtroom as it is a failure of other viable diplomacy.

            I think if the use of hormone pills by millions of women which goes into our drinking water and our lakes and rivers having a negative effect, is a condition that should not be ignored.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Why does it need to be a legal solution? The very worst place to negotiate is an a courtroom as it is a failure of other viable diplomacy”

            OK, so what IS your solution?

            “When we have a male pill, and it is coming soon, clinical testing is being done now, men will no longer need to trust that you actually DID take all the pills as you are supposed to and claimed to.”

            I’m glad this will help you soothe your paranoia.

            “I think if the use of hormone pills by millions of women which goes into our drinking water and our lakes and rivers having a negative effect, is a condition that should not be ignored.”

            So DOCUMENT how this is having an effect on you. Further document that this effect is ecologically worse than the effects of millions of unwanted babies. K. Thx.

          • redlemon

            So why do you think a male BC pill won’t pollute water?

          • lady_black

            “In any event, the pill is not 100%. Perhaps the answer is the male birth control pill.”
            There will be no male birth control pill. India is pioneering research on an injection (Vasalgel). It is 100% effective and lasts for 10 years. It could revolutionize contraception as we know it. Instead of worrying about women’s pee, you ought to be working non-stop on getting this method to all nations.

          • Suba gunawardana

            There’s no conflict between men & women. Just between the insane & the sane.

          • expect_resistance

            You cannot be serious. You’re joking right?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What harm have you suffered?

          • lady_black

            It’s NOT HAPPENING, cupcake. Forget about it.

          • Suba gunawardana

            -When there are billions of chemicals in our food, water, & air that simply CANNOT be avoided if you live on earth, why are you so concerned with estrogen & women’s pee? Sounds like a strange fetish to me.

            -Even if it WERE a valid concern (which it isn’t, considering how small a percentage of estrogen in water comes from the pill compared to the food industry & various other sources), what obligation do women have to put their own safety & well-being second to your paranoia?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No by all means, have all the sex you want to have, but keep my drinking water clear of your oestrogen hormone. The rest of your comment is pretty ignorant and not even comical.

          • lady_black

            All women excrete estrogen. And not all birth control pills contain it. You know who else excretes estrogen? PREGNANT WOMEN. Tell your wife no peeing while pregnant, EVER. I don’t want her evil female hormones in the drinking water.

          • fiona64

            And don’t forget, as I was duly informed by this charming “gentleman,” if you terminate (or plan to terminate) a life-threatening pregnancy, you are “violent, bitter, and misandric.” Of course, he also told me I needed to “keep my legs closed,” apparently unaware that women can have intercourse in just such a position.

          • expect_resistance

            My pee is very evil.

          • fiona64

            Things I learned from the MRAs on a previous thread:

            – If a man gets a woman pregnant and she wants an abortion, he should have he right to force her to remain pregnant.
            – If a man gets a woman pregnant and she wants to remain pregnant, he should have the right to force her go get an abortion.
            – Under the first circumstance, he should be able to change his mind about the whole thing and not have to pay child support.
            – Under the second circumstance, if she refuses to get an abortion, he should not have to pay child support.
            – Abortion is misandrist.
            – Contraception is misandrist.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Is the birth control pill, a man made hormone, the only means to manage the rate of pregnancy? Consider the very possible fact of getting pregnant each time you have sexual intercourse, even if you use the pill, a condom, and any other birth control method you can think of.

          Intelligent responsible men and women know how to manage the size of families they create, without the need of chemical means to do so.

          • lady_black

            You mean by not having sex? Not gonna happen.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Considering the “very possible fact of getting pregnant each time you have sexual intercourse, even if you use the pill, a condom, and any other birth control method you can think of “, how on earth can ANYONE “manage the size of families they create, without the need of chemical means”?

      • Shan

        Did you even read the article you linked to?

        “The contraceptive pill is not thought to be responsible for the oestrogens in sewage effluent because women excrete its hormones in a biologically inactive form that has no effect on fish.”

        “Research in the US has shown that nonylphenol, which is found in plastic
        wrappings, furniture polishes, many toiletries, skin creams, herbicides and pesticides, could behave as an oestrogen.”

        *facepalm*

        • Jennifer Starr

          He’s not too bright.

          • Shan

            I don’t think his problem is lack of innate intelligence. He’s probably just another victim of the same sort of idiological zealotry he accuses feminists of. Or possibly it’s the copious aroma of testosterone in the air over at AVfM. That seems to have caused him to start feeling the uncontrollable urge to pee in all the corners here at RHRC.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I am astounded by the bigotry spewing here. Intelligence is relative. As I do my research, I am finding a lack of it here. Not just by the authors of these articles, but by the regulars who absorb this nonsense.

            There is such a lack of balance, the beam is no longer there.

            This is the same kind of dangerous nonsense I am finding at the Colleges and Universities I visit.

          • lady_black

            I have no doubt you find colleges and universities intimidating.

          • Shan

            ” As I do my research, I am finding a lack of it here.”

            I showed you mine. Now you show me yours.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Does this help you Shan. I know you are incapable of doing your own research. Do we need to drink synthetic female hormones found in our drinking water?

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-105466/Fertility-timebomb-drinking-water.html

          • Unicorn Farm

            Daily mail!? Bahahhahahaa

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes I realize, it will not make a lick of difference to you where the information comes from, regardless of how well it is scientifically established, you will push your head even deeper in the sand. Because being progressive does not include your line of thinking. So stay in your caged realm of wisdom and knowledge.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Daily mail is a rag and you know it! Give me a peer reviewed source and I’ll listen.
            PEER-REVIEWED.
            You keep accusing me of remaining willfully ignorant, and yet you have not provided any facts for me to ignore.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you saying if I provide to you peer reviewed data that your pills are causing problems in our drinking water you will stop polluting our water?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Unbelievably stupid.

            No. I asked you to provide me peer reviewed documentation that the pills were causing problems for HUMAN MEN AND BOYS.

            Even if they were, I will NOT stop using them because I have every legal right to do so, even if it negatively effects you in some way. We ALL pollute. You have had a child; I have not. Your detrimental impact on the environment is far higher than mine because you made that choice.

            If you disagree that I should NOT have the right to use birth control pills because they pollute, then please show me the legal framework you would apply to enforce this prohibition.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope

          • Unicorn Farm

            from your VERY OWN LINK:

            “scientists do not yet know whether this is affecting people”

          • expect_resistance

            Then you should also be concerned about BPA [bisphenol A] and pesticides. BPA [bisphenol A] is a commonly used plastic that produces an estrogen mimic than can disrupt the action of normal hormones causing feminization. These chemicals leach into the water supply.

          • fiona64

            Don’t be silly; the only thing he has to worry about is lady-pee!

          • expect_resistance

            He seems overly concerned with lady pee.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I wonder what he drinks when he goes on vacation…..

          • fiona64

            He can’t go on vacation, Jennifer, don’t be silly! There might be wimmen in them thar furren parts, peein’ in the cee-ment ponds!

          • expect_resistance

            His own pee? Or he brings bottles of his “special secret” water.

          • lady_black

            The article he linked to says that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He’s not talking about BPA because he can’t find a way to blame women for that.

          • expect_resistance

            Which is kind of surprising because they seem to find any excuse to blame women.

          • Shan

            Tupperware parties? ;-)

          • lady_black

            Try NOT DRINKING.

          • L-dan

            What? The Daily Mail actually said something sensible?

            I was just going to laugh at his link, to be honest. Nobody on the internet tries to win a citations argument with the Daily Mail.

          • lady_black

            He does. LOL.

          • fiona64

            I’m surprised he hasn’t tried to link WorldNutDaily, at this point.

          • Shan

            Here’s a more recent article from a more science-oriented source.

            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208125813.htm

            “Knowing that sewage treatment plants remove virtually all of the main
            estrogen — 17 alpha-ethinylestradiol (EE2) — in oral contraceptives,
            the scientists decided to pin down the main sources of estrogens in
            water supplies.

            Their analysis found that EE2 has a lower
            predicted concentration in U.S. drinking water than natural estrogens
            from soy and dairy products and animal waste used untreated as a farm
            fertilizer. And that all humans, (men, women and children, and
            especially pregnant women) excrete hormones in their urine, not just
            women taking the pill. Some research cited in the report suggests that
            animal manure accounts for 90 percent of estrogens in the environment.”

      • Unicorn Farm

        Even if birth control pills were shown to add hormones to the water at a level that caused ecological changes, I have every right to take it.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          I don’t care if you overdose on your pills. I get it, it’s your body your right. Go at it. However, when you do something that infringes on my well being, then it is no longer just YOUR body and YOUR right. Now you must deal with me.

          • redlemon

            You’re right. Anytime you take tylenol or ibuprofen, it gets into my drinking water. You should not have the right to take any medication that I don’t want in my drinking water! And forget people who take SSRI’s! They pee a whole lot of their medication into my perfectly clean drinking water!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Struggles for a viable rebuttal.

          • redlemon

            Yes honey, we all can see that you’re struggling with your rebuttals. It’s quite obvious with your attempts at insults.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Overdose? FFS, you don’t “overdose” on birth control pills
            So, if I’m infringing on your wellbeing (which you have not yet documented), how are you going to stop me? Is there a lawsuit you can bring? Whatcha gonna do? After all “Now I must deal with you!”
            “I am a man! RAWR!!!”

          • fiona64

            Is there a lawsuit you can bring?

            Lulz … https://mancheeze.wordpress.com/tag/atilla-vinczer/

          • Unicorn Farm

            Ahahahhahahahahahahahhaha
            I needed that! :)

          • fiona64

            OMG … “a class action lawsuit against the manufacturers of the pill for harming males.”

            I … have to go. I’m laughing so hard I cannot breathe.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m dying. This is too much. Not only do I have a law degree, I have an environmental science degree!!

            We used to have these sorts of crazy lawsuits like this when I was a law clerk…. stuff from the Sovereign Citizens and a couple inmates that would file petitions to remove President Obama and replace him with themselves… (these people would file thousands of petitions in every federal court), etc. etc.

            Please, Attilo/Alito whoever, file your lawsuit. It’ll give a law clerk a good, hearty laugh.

          • kitler

            Speaking of the law I would like to inform you that pregnant persons cannot defend themselves from the assaults of an unborn human occupying their bodies because such assaults, if perpetrated by a fetus, are not illegal

          • fiona64

            I really cannot take anyone seriously who believes that he is getting “lady cooties” from drinking water.

          • Unicorn Farm

            MRAs think that women aren’t even allowed to PEE without running the specifics of it by them first.
            Unbelievable, really.

          • redlemon

            I just adore the fact that he’s so concerned about the pill hormones being in drinking water and yet isn’t crusading against any other medication in water.

            It really is just women. We get pregnant- we’re at fault. We take a pill- we’re at fault and pee in their water. We want sex- we’re sluts. We don’t want sex- we’re being selfish meanies. We want male BC- we just don’t want to take responsibility and pass off the blame. Male BC isn’t on the market yet- we’re in some sort of conspiracy to keep control of BC. Some guy stubs his toe- women conspire to keep sidewalks uneven.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Right. The problem is not problems with our environment (god knows, hormones from BCPs are the LEAST of our problems), the problem is women basically existing.
            As expect resistance (I think?) pointed out above, BPAs- which have been shown to be present in water at harmful levels- have very potent endocrine-disrupting effects, as do a number of other types of chemicals.
            You’d think, if he was SO concerned about the effects on men and boys, he’d be relieved to learn that hormonal contraceptives are not that much of a problem. The fact that he’s still flipping a sh*t shows that his issue isn’t concern for men and boys, it’s generalized hatred for women’s actions.

          • redlemon

            BPA’s and antibiotics are probably the biggest concerns in the food/water chain. But we all know that those are not women specific, so he obviously cannot be bothered with those.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I have this sudden urge to watch Dr. Strangelove…

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your delusional mens rea tells me you have no meaningful concept of law, regardless of your law degree status.

            I doubt you could successfully argue in an actual court of law, that the sky is blue because the nebulous mind is clouded by thick fog at all times.

            I am shocked, well actually not really, that you speak the way you do with your law and environmental degrees. Often, people with limited education, are the most arrogant. Little knowledge is often the most dangerous.

            When I file my motions, applications and actions in a court of law, people get nervous, very quickly, as I do not need to succumb to the pressures of the law society snobs.

            You see, information is power, not a degree noted on a sheet of paper.

            Did you seriously think I would endorse or promote filing a class action lawsuit against the pill companies, a multi trillion dollar industry? How gullible you are.

          • Unicorn Farm

            What was that you said? “Checkmate. You have no more moves left, so you go on the verbal attack”. I guess that’s what you’re doing here. Go home, dude, you’re embarrassing yourself.

            “Did you seriously think I would endorse or promote filing a class action lawsuit against the pill companies, a multi trillion dollar industry? How gullible you are.”

            Yes, because you said you would. And because you wrote this: “When I file my motions, applications and actions in a court of law, people get nervous, very quickly”. (good lord, eye roll)
            “as I do not need to succumb to the pressures of the law society snobs.”

            What like the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure?

          • redlemon

            “Often, people with limited education, are the most arrogant.”

            What a shiny mirror you have there.

            And the only thing you’ve really proved is that any moron can file a lawsuit.

            “Did you seriously think I would endorse or promote filing a class action lawsuit against the pill companies, a multi trillion dollar industry? How gullible you are.”

            Oh, and why not? It suddenly isn’t a large problem when it’s a multi trillion dollar industry? You suddenly don’t care enough to take on a huge corporate? It’s a serious enough problem to whine about on websites but not an actual big enough problem to actively do anything about?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes I do and does not prove a great reflection when I point it to your eyes, now does it?

          • redlemon

            Hey there buddy, I’m not the one making claims and then not backing up my stuff with proper sources, while simultaneously whining about people being meanies.

          • lady_black

            The sky isn’t blue. It’s actually colorless. It’s the refraction of light that makes it appear blue.

          • fiona64

            I considered pointing that out, but I didn’t want to make him too scared of our lady-brainz. Our pee has him in a big enough snit as it is.

          • Jennifer Starr

            When I file my motions, applications and actions in a court of law, people get nervous, very quickly

            What you think of as ‘nervous’ is actually hysterical laughter.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Just remember not to pee in our water if you are on the pill should your laughter escalates to that level.

          • fiona64

            Not on the pill, Prince Charming. I had a tubal ligation, remember? You should; after all, you’re the one who told me that I was “violent, bitter and misandric” when I said that failure thereof would result in an abortion. Having experienced one life-threatening pregnancy, I have no plans to do so again.

            But you rock on with your bad self and your “righteous indignation” about women who are apparently running out to piss in the lakes of Canada.

          • lady_black

            You DO realize that all women pee and excrete female hormones… RIGHT? I assume you pee and excrete male hormones. Stop doing that right now! Bwaaaaaahahahhaha. I couldn’t even TYPE that with a straight face!

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I intend to pee anywhere I feel like peeing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That would be indecent and disgusting. You could also be charged with a sex crime. Are you in any of these clips?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JmLeePpJ00

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m going to go pee in my toilet right now–and I’m on birth control.

            Byeee….

          • fiona64

            How dare you! Some Dudebro might, you know, have something happen … or … something … if you dare to pee. You’re just violent, bitter, and misandric. ;->

          • Jennifer Starr

            LOL–I wonder what he thinks might happen ;)

          • fiona64

            Don’t question him! Prince Charming has spoken! Lady-pee is a weapon of mass destruction!

          • redlemon

            That explains so much.

          • kitler

            So he’s a violent anti social nutcase.

          • kitler
          • redlemon

            You know, we should start being nicer to him. He might just start trying to lawsuit us if we become big meanies and hurt his delicate little feelings.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m surprised he hasn’t filed a class action against Wimmins for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

          • redlemon

            I’m sure the judge would laugh him right out of court as soon as he got to the point of, “They pee in my drinking water!!!”

          • Unicorn Farm

            I loved crazy law suits when I was in chambers. Spices things up a bit.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s a scene I would like to see.

          • redlemon

            So would I. Alas, I can only amuse myself by reading this thread with “I Could Never Be Your Woman” playing in the background, sprinkled with Spice Girls and Meredeth Brooks.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I have ‘A Bit of Fry and Laurie’ on DVD playing in the background:)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You call that a credible source? lol Diana Boston. Please, even you deserve better than that.

          • fiona64

            What’s the matter, Prince Charming? Are you saying that you *didn’t* do any of those things?

          • lady_black

            Are you denying the story or launching ad hominem attacks? Here’s an idea… Go deal with your violent kid. Instead of worrying about there being evidence somewhere of your 12 year old’s violence, teach him to use his words and not violence. I managed to raise two boys who never got themselves into legal trouble over deliberately injuring another child. Shame on you sir.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are a despicable vile piece of crap to say that about my son. You twisted piece of garbage. You are lucky to be using a false name or your ass would be called out publicly you disgusting scum-bag worthless bumbaclot. Because of your stupid ill stigma that my son must be violent is why I work tirelessly to flush turds like you down the toilette where you and your likeness being.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            This is a violent boy. But even he learned by his surroundings, not by his own accord to strike others.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS5S-cUZsXc

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Good to know I got you to do some reading as I know this is not top shelf.

          • lady_black

            Mr. Tiddles: Attorney at Law. ROFLMFAO. I just now got up off the floor where I was rolling around howling with laughter. Attila Napoleon ought to be much more concerned with his violent son than lady pee. The kid learned it somewhere, and for some reason, I feel extremely sorry for his sons right now. If he won’t teach them proper behavior, the rest of the world WILL, and it won’t be a pretty sight. Shame on him.

          • fiona64

            The kid learned it somewhere,

            I must admit, that very thought crossed my mind …

          • lady_black

            Well OF COURSE, and the fact that he defends his son for slamming another kid’s head with a bathroom stall door tells you exactly where he learned it.

          • fiona64

            What puzzles me *most,* I admit, is that his greatest concern seems to be with whether his kid will develop a (possibly well-deserved) reputation for being violent instead of, you know, teaching his kid not to be violent.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I have raised a valid concern, which, being the selfish mentality you demonstrate, does not concern you so long as YOUR perceived rights are met.

            Why can’t you overdose on birth control pills? Sure you can, but I think you have confused it with lethal drug overdosing.

            Since I know I could not count on you and millions of other women to stop polluting our water with female hormones, I have taken steps to protect my boys and myself against it.

            The oestrogen hormones have a much larger impact on boys at puberty when hormones play an integral role in male development.

            Imagine a class action lawsuit against the manufacturers of the pill for harming males. That would be a spectacle indeed.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Look dude, humans pollute All. The. Time. All the time. The impact of the estrogen in my pee is utterly negligible in comparison with my energy consumption, the chemicals in the products I consume, my paper consumption, the trash I generate, etc. etc. Same for you. Most importantly, the estrogen in my pee is utterly negligible compared to the environmental footprint of any baby I might have. Think of the diapers alone! Use of birth control pills to delay childbearing is one of the least selfish things I’ve ever heard of.
            Further, you have put forth NO proof that estrogen in the water HARMS MALES. I’m waiting to see it.
            Yes, your class action WOULD be a spectacle. Your lawsuit would fail immediately. I am an attorney. Further, I practiced environmental law before my current position. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
            What steps, exactly, have you taken to protect your boys and yourself against the estrogen in the water? I’m curious.

          • L-dan

            Additionally, good luck proving the extra hormones causing damage came from BC pills and not say, pregnant women, cows, pigs, etc. which also excrete extra estrogen into the environment. Or from the dairy industry, which uses hormones to keep the cows producing longer. Or from the many industries releasing other endocrine disruptors into the environment.

            These *are* an issue. But women taking BC is a tiny, tiny part of it. I think society could do with less productive cows far better than it could do without the Pill.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Absolutely! The incredible deluge of pollution we put into our water is incredibly problematic and incredibly depressing. Coal ash, anyone?!?!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            With all due respect, you can not have been a good attorney. I am not even sure I believe you could be an attorney. You do not speak like an attorney, there is no semblance of it as evidence by your infantile interlocutory nonsense.

            In my household, we do not drink from bottled water and we do not use town water, which is laden with harmful chemicals. If I could, we would be consuming glacier milk. My medicine cabinet is not filled with pills either.

            If you think that hormones and chemicals have no effect on the well being of the human body, I have some ocean front property to sell you in Montana. One only needs to look at what is happening with the livestock, fruits and vegetables that have been genetically modified that is extremely harmful to humans.

            Any and all medicine is toxic to a more or less degree. They all have side effects. The producers of said medicines, work them to the point that the potential lawsuits stemming from said side effects are lower than the potential profit.

            It is frustrating to debate with ignorance, but one learns to tolerate it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            we do not drink from bottled water and we do not use town water, which is laden with harmful chemicals.

            Are you saying that you don’t drink water at all?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What a stupid thing to allege. Your feeble mind can’t think of any other sources of water than town and bottled water?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Mite oversensitive, aren’t we?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not at all.

          • expect_resistance

            I iz laughing again, cackle, cackle, cackle, burp.

          • expect_resistance

            Jennifer has a valid question to your baffling post. Do you drink well water? Do you save and harvest your own water to drink?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            To your cackling I will not respond.

          • expect_resistance

            Curious minds want to know what kind of water you are drinking.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I used to hear of people drinking their own urine–never quite understood why. Maybe that’s what he does?

          • fiona64

            GMTA.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Great to cure dry skin conditions and drinking in a survival situation. Would not do it more than one cycle though as it will become toxic to drink. MDs used to taste patient’s urine as part of their examination. Does that shock you Jen?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Doesn’t shock me, no. I’m just happier with my Aquafina.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Aquafina is unnatural and unhealthy. But be happy with, the water company is happy with your money.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Aquafina tastes good. I like it. Ditto for the nice beaujolais I’m drinking. Must go now–loo.

          • fiona64

            Maybe he saves and purifies his own pee, so he doesn’t have to worry about lady-cooties?

          • expect_resistance

            That was my next thought.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You consider this a valid question?

            “Are you saying that you don’t drink water at all?”

          • expect_resistance

            Again, do you drink well water? Do you save and harvest your own water to drink?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Inquiring minds want to know.

          • Jennifer Starr

            At the moment, I’m drinking Aquafina.

          • lady_black

            He has a well. Which can come with it’s own set of bad news.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “With all due respect, you can not have been a good attorney. I am not even sure I believe you could be an attorney. You do not speak like an attorney, there is no semblance of it as evidence by your infantile interlocutory nonsense.”

            There it is again, when you have no where to go, go on the attack!

            Also, you don’t seem to understand what the word “interlocutory” means, but you do seem to have found a legal term. Very good!! Good boy!

            “If you think that hormones and chemicals have no effect on the well being of the human body, I have some ocean front property to sell you in Montana”

            I never said they don’t, you imbecile. I have been writing all over this thread about the harmful effects of chemicals in the environment. I simply reiterate that there is no evidence that hormonal contraceptives are causing problems to men and boys, which is your entire argument.

            ” One only needs to look at what is happening with the livestock, fruits and vegetables that have been genetically modified that is extremely harmful to humans”
            Now you’re talking about GMOs? Huh? What? You don’t even understand the topic of conversation and yet you have the nerve to call other people stupid? Unf*cking real.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I see I have managed to get a rise out of an irrational former attorney who does not understand the complete meaning of the word interlocutory. Perhaps we can continue in a different tongue since English is not your strongest language. No wonder you are a former attorney, unicorn farmer.

            Az életemben nem találkoztam ilyen szemtelen bandával, akik többet foglalkoznak a más ember kárát okozni mint akármilyen értelmes célt elérni. Tisztán látható hogy ezek egy csomó műveletlen, kulturálatlan gazemberek. Tisztelet a kivételnek, ami állítólag itt nem létezik.

            Ezeknek a nőknek totálisan be van tokosodva az eszük olyan ideológiával ami mindenkinek a kárát okozhatja.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Aww, ok. If it makes you feel better to tell yourself that I am a failed former attorney, then you can. We both know it isn’t true, but I’ll let you evaluate why you need to comfort yourself like this.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            If you were such a great attorney, why are you no longer practising? I think the answer is self explanatory the moment one examines your rhetoric.

            In reality, I could care less, who or what you are. You come across as a rag tag mendicant of attention.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I am still practicing, as I told you. I used to practice environmental law. I practice in a different area of law now, but I am still an attorney. You obviously do care. You are very concerned about the state of my bar license, my panties, and my urine. It’s really sad.

          • fiona64

            He does seem to have a little trouble reading for comprehension. I noticed that on the other thread.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            It seems like you have raised the bar, twisted your panties causing a bladder mishap. You think urine, but you are actually out. Unicorn Farm is not on the list.

            I have had people beg me to get my law degree and write y bar exam. Who the hell would want to be party to a bunch of scum bags.

          • lady_black

            First you would have to study law in college, along with core subjects. Let me tell you, a lot of this is very boring. But you have to get the basics down before you get to the exciting stuff. I don’t think you’d make it. You don’t like having your ideals challenged.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            There is nothing I could not cope with If I chose to. My eyes have been opened far and wide to know the open corruption that takes place in our judiciary. From cops to Judges and even lawmakers. Just look at what Law Professor Elizabeth Sheehy is attempting to bring into law in Canada.

            I have had lawyers admit in court, I know far more than they do. I absorb data effortlessly and find law to be rather simplistic. Procedure and form is far more challenging than arguing cases. First line of legal defence is finding errors in procedure, form and adhering to rules of procedure.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Here is a great lawyer joke. What do sperm and lawyers have in common? One in a million will be a human being. In 33 years I have only met about 5 truly honest and descent lawyers and I have dealt with hundreds of them.

          • fiona64

            Casse-toi, petit garcon.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your male friend does not understand Hungarian very well with that analogy.

          • fiona64

            Friends. Plural. Colleagues, actually, from Budapest. :;shrug::

            But hey, you go on being impressed with yourself. Someone has to do it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I think lunatics like you are universally recognized.

          • fiona64

            Are you into tag team?

            Why? Are you a voyeur?

          • Jennifer Starr

            This is a free board–anyone may answer anyone.

          • expect_resistance

            He’s really hung up on this concept.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I suspect it’s because he can’t target and intimidate posters with impunity–we jump in and assist one another and that annoys him.

          • lady_black

            Anyone may jump in at any time and make a fool of you. We don’t need to remain quiet unless spoken to. That’s YOUR hangup.

          • lady_black

            My medicine cabinet isn’t filled with pills either. But I do have a medical condition that requires treatment, and my husband and I have the usual aches and pains. We care nothing for your paranoia, although that too, is treatable. If you choose not to use medications, that has no effect on anyone but yourself.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            We live in a world where every condition must have a pill for it. Eat well, rest well, exercise adequately and you will live in good health. Stay away from poisons, GMOs, toxic substances, avoid being angry and bitter, and your medicine chest will only require band aids, and other first aid things.

            My grandmother is 95 years old and has never taken medicine either. My parents are in their late 70′s and do not take medicine. If you and your husband are suffering from pain, there is a reason for it. If you are older, try Tai Chi and or Yoga.

            Sitting is one of the worst things you can do to your body. Get out be active. A tree that never moves will become still and brittle, easy to brake. A tree that is young and continues to move will remain supple and flexible.

          • fiona64

            avoid being angry and bitter,

            Well, you’re in trouble then …

            However, in fairness, I will say that your last paragraph is accurate. One of the worst things that has happened to me in the past decade is that, due to a serious back injury, I had to give up equestrian sport and ballroom dancing (both of which I desperately miss). I am no longer able to do a good many things I was able to do before that injury, and I wish I could. Be glad, if you are in true good physical health, and be grateful if you have no injuries. I am 100 percent sincere in this. I would not want anyone to have to give up the things they love the way I did … no matter in what areas we may have disagreement.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Thank you. I am sorry to hear you have a back injury, that is or can be very debilitating.

            I have been training in martial arts for 40 years, enjoy competitive down hill skiing, scuba dive, practice yoga, ride bikes, swim dive and enjoy recreational horseback riding. Equestrian riding can be taxing on the body. I enjoy watching it and am mesmerized by the skills some riders demonstrate.

            Always wanted to take ballroom dancing lessons, but stuck to martial arts and dancing that was prevalent in the 80′s to the 90′s. If I ware become immobile, I think I would do a lot of swimming to keep fit.

          • fiona64

            Thank you; I rode dressage, and I miss it more than I can describe. The year that my husband bought me my dream saddle for Valentine’s Day, a lot of my gal-pals teased me and said that was not a very romantic gift. I thought it was one of the most thoughtful things I had ever received, and seeing it gathering dust makes me want to weep.

            Your martial arts training would actually come in handy with ballroom dancing, because you understand where your center of gravity is. Just a thought.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That makes a lot of sense. Being flexible with good stamina would also help I imagine.

          • fiona64

            Indeed, you are right.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You would be mistaken if you think I am ever bitter or indiscriminately angry all the time. Being angry is a normal emotion in moderation.

          • fiona64

            Being angry is a normal emotion in moderation.

            Believe it or not, I concur with you. All human beings have the right to a full range of emotions. Sometimes anger is exactly the right thing to express. And sometimes it’s a good idea to step back and ask “what is my emotion really trying to tell me … what is *really* going on here” before doing more.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I agree. We need to listen to our bodies, that is quite capable of telling us what is going on. Ignoring those signals can be harmful, even fatal.

            I learned that hard lesson when stress put me in the hospital near death. In fact according to the paramedics I should have been dead. The night before a friend died in my arms of a brain aneurysm. That stress pushed me over the edge coupled with working averaging 120 hours per week for four months.

            It was my martial arts discipline that enabled me to go far beyond the envelope of normal human function as well as enabling the discipline to stay alive.

          • fiona64

            I am so very sorry for your loss; I cannot even imagine what that must have been like. You may choose to believe me or not, but it is true.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I enjoy ballroom dancing but I’m only good at Eastern Swing–I don’t seem to know how to let my partner lead and end up stepping on toes and apologizing a lot :)

          • fiona64

            Heh. I had the worst time with vintage ballroom, especially Victorian era, because I’ve taught so many men how to do those dances that I have an alarming tendency to back-lead. More than one partner had to remind me that he knew what he was doing and that I could just relax, thanks.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I would love doing Victorian Ballroom–the class I went to specialized in the 1920s on up. I had the worst time with the Lindy Hop.

          • fiona64

            Lindy Hop is *hard.* It’s not just you.

          • expect_resistance

            I’ll be sure to tell that to my (male) friend who had a congenital heart condition and had to have a heart valve replacement at 35 that he shouldn’t take his prescribed blood thinners. Here’s a clue; he would die without his medicine. Some people have to take medication to stay alive.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            There are times when you have no choice but to take you medicine to stay alive. I do have a male friend who has had heart valve replacement surgery and has an implanted device that defibrillators his heart automatically. He still remains active despite his doctor telling him he should be dead.

          • expect_resistance

            Are you saying men shouldn’t take Viagra?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            With the right woman, Viagra is not needed. Moreover, there are usually other underlying conditions that cause ED. There comes an age when you can not expect to perform the same as when you were 18 years old.

          • expect_resistance

            I think there are a lot if men who say they have to take it for a medical condition and would argue with you. I admit I know nothing about ED and have no experience with it. I’m just stating what I’ve heard from men who argue Viagra is necessary and birth control pills are not.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes I recognize those debates. One being a medical condition that should be funded while the other is not and should not be funded. I doubt all Viagra prescriptions are medically needed. I had a gf in the medical field who was advised to take BCP to help with her acne. It did not. She did end up with a dermatologist who prescribed medicine that finally cleared it up for ever.

          • lady_black

            No, your problems are not “medical conditions that should be treated and mine aren’t.” It doesn’t work that way. Lack of a hard-on never killed anyone. Pregnancy has killed women along with many near misses. And birth control pills have been known to help with acne, along with a host of more female-specific disorders, some of which are debilitating.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I have no further interest in conversing with a rigid mind. If you are treating medical conditions with birth control pills then it is no longer being take strictly for birth control. I had a gf who tried the pill to treat her acne. It did not work.

            I hope you are not so cold with your patients as you are with me. And you wonder why I treat you with contempt and harshness.

          • lady_black

            No, you know what constitutes a “rigid mind?” Saying that lack of a woody is “a medical problem that needs to be treated”, but preventing pregnancy is not a “legitimate” medical issue. That is the very definition of rigid minded. I know scores of OB/GYNs and CRNMs who will disagree with you. I’m known to be blunt, and sometimes it gets me into difficulties when dealing with people. But on the bright side, you’ll always know where you stand. I’m brutally honest and some people just can’t handle that. If you were in trouble, you couldn’t find a better nurse than me. Don’t mistake competence and confidence for “coldness.”

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Go to hell bitch! After what you stated about my son I have nothing but contempt for your sorry ass. You are a disgusting scum bag. I have more respect for the faecal matter you clean every day than you. And your avocation is in nursing. God help us and your patients.

          • lady_black

            I said I feel sorry for your sons, and I do. Not because of them, but because of you. Your kid makes a very serious mistake, and your reaction is to sue the school and blame feminists? Really, is this your idea of effective parenting? I can see where he gets it from, and so can everyone else. Go take a parenting class or two, and I hope to god it’s not already too late, for their sakes.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Got to hell! You have no capacity to evaluate in a fair and balanced manner. The final words of the female Judge was, Mr. Vinczer, I could only wish more parents were as connected with their children as you.” The female principal fabricated evidence along with the female vice principal and they got sued. I have not even begun with Dameian Muirhead and Krista Kempster. Their days are numbered.

            And you would be the same bitch who would call CAS/CPS on parents at the hospital you work at with your kind of unbalanced biased, bigoted mentality.

          • fiona64

            Their days are numbered.

            This looks, from where I sit, very much like a threat of violence.

          • lady_black

            I do not work with children. Did the kid your son harmed “fabricate evidence” too? It seems he had to go to the doctor.

          • fiona64

            If I were a wagering woman, I would guess that the BCPs were prescribed in that regard rather than tetracycline, which for decades was considered the most effective treatment for acne vulgaris. Unfortunately, we all know what happens when you take antibiotics for an extended period of time: antibiotic resistance. :-(

            I am glad your friend was able to find a good dermatologist.

          • fiona64

            Young men with Type I (juvenile) diabetes often have ED; it comes along with the other related vascular issues — regardless of who their partner is (I had one such partner before I met my husband). Of course, none of us is the same at 50 in any number of areas that we were at 18.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Many young men are overweight and physically out of shape adding to the medical conditions you cite. Good nutrition, decent rest and plenty of exercise will make it far less probable ED to be an issue. But with the wrong woman, even Viagra may not help. I would argue the same holds true for women, who would also not be aroused to copulate with any amount of effectiveness.

          • lady_black

            In a word, BULLSHIT.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I disagree with your one word analogy.

          • lady_black

            You’re healthy. It’s easy for you to say that. Come back and talk to me when you have multiple herniated discs in your back. Come back when your ankle and knees are shot from sports injuries. You come from healthy stock. My husband and I are struggling with health issues on both sides. Sometimes you luck out health-wise, and sometimes you don’t. I think it’s hilarious how Fiona brought up type I diabetes, and you fire back with “fat and out of shape.” People are BORN with type I diabetes. I went to nursing school with a girl who had it. She was in her early 20s and already on an insulin pump. She was slim (out of necessity) and otherwise healthy and diabetes will take her out before her time. Probably after it takes her eyesight, a couple of limbs, and her kidney function. Children are something she can’t even THINK about. Too dangerous. By “bullshit” I mean you do NOT know it all. I stand by that assessment.

          • fiona64

            In the case of my friend, he was neither overweight nor physically out of shape … but yes, that is the case with many. And likewise, yes, there are some men who, well … not even with someone *else’s* parts, if you catch my meaning.

          • lady_black

            Wrong again, Atilla. Men who need Viagra are not “with the wrong woman.” Once again, you twist yourself all in a knot attempting to blame women for all men’s issues. ED has physical causes, related to changes to the vascular system caused by disease and normal aging. I agree that at 50 or 60 you don’t perform like you did at 18. I don’t either. That’s normal. And it has nothing to do with WOMEN.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You would be surprised at how much one’s lifestyle effects ED. And to suggest that the right combination of a man and women does not result in instant stimulation is also wrong. Chemistry is huge. z

            I agree there are real medical ED, but that is in the minority. If the male is having regular erections during his sleep, he does not have ED. Stress, food, chemicals, rest, they all play a role in a man’s ability to have erections.

            Certain drugs also inhibit erection. I recall taking some pills before my wisdom teeth were pulled. It did not help in the bedroom no matter what my gf tried.

          • lady_black

            Oh really? Will that treat my asthma? My doctor says not. Will healthy food and exercise cure osteoarthritis from years of hard work? I don’t think so. You worry about your own health, and deal with your troubled kid. Never mind what I’m taking.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I suggest you have Dr. Harry Ramnarine and Dr. Joel Wallach lend you a hand with asthma and osteoarthritis conditions.

            I have no medical or other issues to deal with in my family. I am blessed with a handful of great medical professionals, including one who pioneered the ballooning process in Toronto and chose the first artificial heart in Canada. Yet you dismiss me as some hack. I just smile.

          • lady_black

            You are “some hack.”

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            How so?

          • lady_black

            Because what you think you know isn’t necessarily so. That’s why I don’t think you would survive pre-law. You would have a lot of your thinking challenged, and you recoil from that. In order to expand your mind, first you have to open it. Yours is not only closed, but nailed shut. Witness your thinking that “we have to deal with you.” No, we don’t. That’s only one example of your flawed thinking.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You my friend have not even come close to understanding the scope of my knowledge. I have dealt with 25 cases in court on my own, defeating lawyers with 25+ years experience.

            I have seen lawyers in the courtroom who should never open their moths therein. My legal mentors have 40+ years experience in criminal, civil, corporate and family law. Some have been defence lawyer, crown/district attorneys and some even Judges.

            The fundamentals of law is quite primitive. It is my view that law clerks ensure rules and deadlines are met. While a good lawyer will be able to argue cases, be it trials, pre trials, motions or otherwise in an effective manner. A really good lawyer, who is not out to strip you of your wealth can resolve matter on consent. But that does not bring a solid stream of billing.

            I would more than likely not survive the law clique, because I am not a person that tolerates restrictions.

          • A. T.

            What I don’t think you understand, with all due respect, is child welfare. People that do not want children should be given all opportunity to avoid having them. The aftermath can be wonderful (people bond with child, yay!) or horrific. If you have not personally worked with the horror, you do not get to tell me it is worse than chemicals. Notably ones you cannot provide sources for I call see. Accredited sources from scientists, to be clear.

            I don’t mean to suggest I am ignoring the very real effects of chemicals on the human body or that I appreciate them. The US fights regulation on many fronts and it’s horrible. I do not equate to the suffering on a living child that could have been prevented. You do not have the money or resources to prevent or rescue those child.

            Giving people that do not wish or are not able to become parents *does* and can help prevent it. It can also help with poverty, abortion and is proven to do so.

            By all means, fight GMOs, chemicals and advocate for healthy living. Just do not pretend fighting birth control helps children in any way, shape, or form.

          • lady_black

            I know you aren’t shaming anyone. I had three children, and definitely didn’t feel that I could handle a fourth, physically, emotionally or financially and I have no shame in that. Shame belongs to those who want to prohibit people who don’t want children from the means not to have them, and do not understand that “natural contraception” doesn’t treat any health disorders suffered by women. No names mentioned.

          • fiona64

            You’re also blessed to live in a country where health care is seen as a right and not a privilege. :-/

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            We pay dearly for that. It is not for free. In Ontario alone, the cost is $64 billion per year. That works out to a cost of $4,705 per every living human being in Ontario. This is paid for by EHT, Employer’s Health Tax, a percentage of corporate revenue, which is allocated within the product or service sold. So it is the public who pays. We have patients who die waiting in line for some types of surgeries and certain medicines are not covered that causes serious medical issues.

          • fiona64

            I know it’s not free, but honestly one of the biggest problems we have here in the US is the coupling of health insurance with employment. I would rather see my tax rates go up a little to make sure everyone is covered than to have people losing their homes, etc., due to medical bankruptcy — or dying because they cannot get any treatment at all. That happens a lot in the US, and I do believe it is shameful.

            PS: Apropos of nothing, I visited Toronto last fall and I enjoyed myself very much. I had never been to any part of Canada except for British Columbia until then.

            And thank you for the polite dialogue, BTW.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I had a gf who was a critical care nurse at the Hamot Hospital in Erie Pennsylvania. She told me that they would not turn away any patient who needed vital medical care. The hospital had a sundry fund for such reasons. I still regret not finding the time to watch a brain surgery that she arranged for me to see.

            When I planned to move my business to Charleston SC, I was astounded as to how much lower the tax rates were. Making it easy to purchase medical insurance than paying the exorbitant taxes in Canada.

            If healthcare coverage is directly connected to being employed, then that surely is an issue to be concerned about. It is very shameful when medicine is based on a monetary aspect rather than the basis of the Hippocratic oath. I feel the same way about certain medicine that costs thousands of dollars per month. Out of the reach of most people who need it.

          • fiona64

            If healthcare coverage is directly connected to being employed, then that surely is an issue to be concerned about.

            The Affordable Care Act was supposed to help with that, but I am sure you have seen all of the whinging by the conservatives here in the news. States refusing to implement the care exchanges, etc.

            I can say this, though; I have a dear friend who is but 23 years old. With the ACA, she was able to be put on her father’s health insurance … which turned out to be a good thing when she was diagnosed with such invasive uterine cancer that she required a radical hysterectomy … uterus, fallopian tubes, ovaries, all gone at age 23. If it were not for the ACA, she would be dead, because she was unemployed at the time of her diagnosis.

            What the vast majority of the US wanted was a single-payer system … but that was not okay with many conservative politicians who theoretically represent us.

            And I concur that it is shameful that some medicines are so costly. A friend, who died last year of HIV-related complications, at one point had to make a budget of “which of these various medicines do I need the *most,*” since his HIV was a “pre-existing condition” that made him uninsurable until the ACA. I wish it had been around long enough to be more help to him … and I wish he were still around for all of us.

            In any event, yes. We are trying to make some strides/improvements here, and are met with resistance by people at every turn who think that healthcare is only for the wealthy, not for those who are ailing and in need.

          • redlemon

            “Eat well, rest well, exercise adequately and you will live in good health.”

            As much as I agree, that isn’t always an absolute guarantee. My grandfather was very active, ate what came out of his garden, kept a very average weight, had an even temperament, and, while he led a very healthy life, he still developed Type 2 diabetes and hyperthyroidism. He certainly needed the thyroid treatment and he eventually needed medication for his diabetes. The exact same thing happened with his mother and grandmother, both also very active and ate what came off their farm. The illnesses just run in the family. I can do what I can to keep diabetes away for as long as possible, but I know there’s a very good chance that I will develop it at some point in life. My goal is to keep it away for as long as possible.

          • A. T.

            Again, the fact that you are focusing on women rather than the various industries suggest you have a preoccupation with women. You mention the effects of those chemicals in other posts. Surely you care for the boys being effected by GMOs and more?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Very much so. I despise Monsanto.

          • A. T.

            I suspect most of us would happily support you in that cause.

          • expect_resistance

            This is probably the one thing I agree with you on. I hate Monsanto.

          • fiona64

            You and I are in wholehearted concurrence there.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, we don’t have to deal with you at all.

          • fiona64

            I don’t know about you, but I’m just trembling in my stiletto heels at “Now you must deal with me.” /sarc

          • expect_resistance

            “Now you must deal with me” Ha, I iz laughing!!!

          • A. T.

            People have rightly pointed out there are bigger concerns and you are targeting one that (surprise!) involves women.

            Even if that were not true, you can afford to provided for the children that would be born personally? I doubt you have millions upon millions of dollars. Or that you can afford to deal with the effects of overpopulation, which would prove to be greater than birth control pills as many examples have proven.

            Your suggestions are not practical and would be more harmful in the long run.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I picked up on this anomaly a number of years ago reading about a marine condition in the St. Lawrence Rive. Fish were not spawning. Research showed that male fish were becoming sparse. This was traced to high levels of oestrogen in the water coming from waste treatment plants that can not remove such chemicals.

            My further research found that these hormones have made it to our tap water having an effect on males during puberty. Hormones can also be found in chicken that cause ill effects for boys.

            Much more scientific research needs to be done as this condition can only get worse with time. There are natural ways to deal with birth control that does not harm our precious water. We could stop flushing unused pills down the drain for starters, but even in our landfills, these chemicals will eventually make it into our water tables.

            When I dispose of chemicals in my factory, I neutralize them first to ensure I do not harm the environment. Some of the chemicals I use is potassium cyanide, sulphuric/nitric acid and chemically liquefied nickel, copper, gold and silver.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, ALL wastewater ends up at the treatment plant. You haven’t proved that the estrogen contamination is from women using oral contraceptives, and not from industrial chemicals that mimic estrogens. We don’t HAVE to depend on “natural” contraception. Furthermore, “natural” contraception treats ZERO female gynecological problems. Even with your magical “non-polluting male contraceptive” you cannot deny women the medical treatment of oral contraceptives. You just don’t seem to understand that your paranoia doesn’t matter. The present method of disposing of unused drugs is not flushing them. They are to be mixed in with some noxious substance like kitty litter to discourage abuse. Then they go to an incinerator. As a nurse, I return unused quantities of dispensed medication (other than the occasional poured and refused pill that must be discarded) to the pharmacy where they similarly render the drugs useless and send them for incineration. We have to do something with them. If a small amount of narcotic is to be wasted, that goes down the drain. (For example, the prescribed dose is less than an entire pre-filled syringe.)

          • fiona64

            They are to be mixed in with some noxious substance like kitty litter to discourage abuse

            That’s how we dispose of them in our household …

          • Shan

            I heard used coffee grounds is also a good substance to mix them with.

          • A. T.

            You didn’t answer the questions about overpopulation and how you would provide for the children that would be born. Some would be born to parents that can’t afford them. They would need food, housing and various other things. If those things were not provided, you would still have to pay for the effects resulting from a lack of food, housing and care. There’s ample documentation for all of these, if you need links to demonstration stress, lack of food and other effects of poverty on children and adults.

            For areas that are experience housing crisis’, your plan would be…?

            These are the questions and kind of questions you need to be able to answer if you are going to suggest that birth control be banned.

            I can easily believe chemicals are problematic, but guess what? More people being born will use MORE chemicals that have other toxic effects we could discuss. You will not avoid them by targeting one and instead invite the problems I detailed briefly above.

            Suggesting we dispose of medical and other waste without flushing or exposing it to water is something we can all agree with as a start, and critical, I think.

          • fiona64

            We could stop flushing unused pills down the drain for starters,

            Women don’t flush unused BCPs down the drain; that’s not how they work (pills must all be taken, and in a particular order based on LMP). I know other people have provided sources already that explain what sorts of chemicals are causing the problem you describe — and yes, it does indeed exist, but cannot be laid at the feet of women using BCPs.

            I concur that putting meds down the toilet is not the best way to dispose of unwanted/unused meds, and there is a big campaign here in the US to get people to dispose of them properly.

            And I applaud your work to have a greener system. Really and truly.

      • redlemon

        So? It’s been shown that nearly any medication that humans take gets excreted into the water systems. SSRI’s and HBP medications are huge in water systems and just as hard to filter.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Thank you for confirming that we do excrete unnatural chemicals into our water system and into natural bodies of water. It is a real and concerning matter that should not be ignored.

          • redlemon

            Don’t forget buddy, you excrete them too. I demand you stop taking any and all medications, OTC and prescribed. I don’t want your pain meds in my water. I don’t want all your excess iron or vitamin C. You’d better stop eating that over fortified cereal, just in case. And that multivitamin. No antibiotics either. Or anti-psychotics. That will go over well, right? All of those people are violating my rights. Right? I’m sure you’re out there, telling everyone else that they should stop taking Advil so you can drink your water in peace.

            Oh wait, that appears to be something unreasonable. Nevermind, I’ll continue to take my pill. Besides, men are usually the ones taking HBP meds and that’s much more of a problem in water then the pill.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I use no medicine what so ever, nor do my children. We purchase our food from a farm that uses no antibiotics or growth hormones. My home is 100% off grid. I do my best to be soft on the environment.

          • redlemon

            I don’t give a crap what you and your children do. Why aren’t you out telling everyone else to give up their pills and medications? You obviously care so much. Go protest a pharmacy.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Bossy.

          • redlemon

            Oh dear, a man on the internet has called me bossy. I shall have my husband fetch me some smelling salts or else I shall be hysterical the whole evening.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I think I touched a raw nerve, no wonder this lemon is red and quite sour. That type of PH is predisposes you to cancer and ill health don’t you know.

          • redlemon

            Oh dear, a strange man on the internet is concerned about my health. I shall go post-haste to the apothecary and remedy the ills caused by my username!

          • cjvg

            Actually lemon juice creates an alkaline environment in the body.
            Therefore lemon juice is in actuality a recommend food to create an alkaline body, which in your purported theory reduces the incidence of cancer. So in fact lemons (the sour, the better) are excellent for promoting good health. Completely the opposite from your claims!

            In general when you don’t really know what you are talking about it is better you do not attempt to use your scant and insufficient “facts” to make a point. Like in this case this will often backfire in a grandiose fashion and only serve to make you look like an uneducated fool.
            A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

          • fiona64

            Great, he’s one of those anti-vax nuts to boot.

          • redlemon

            Well, he is obsessed with women pee.

          • A. T.

            I’m glad you’re able to do so. Just please realize many people are not in that financial position. A lack of birth control pills would ensure they are in an even worse financial position.

          • http://myindigolives.wordpress.com/ Ellie K

            I have never read such a bizarre rational, that women should not use oral contraceptives because it increases trace amounts of estrogen in nature and the water supply. That is just… lol silly! There *might* be concerningly high levels of estrogen in hair products and over use in raising livestock. The latter *might* have negative effects on humans. Women who use oral contraceptives (plenty of which don’t even contain estrogen!) are not causing environmental damage because of their excretions.

          • A. T.

            Yes, yes, and yes. I’m still going o_O .

          • Unicorn Farm

            No shit! No one is arguing that we have wreaked tremendous havoc on our water system. We’re refuting your assertion that “men and boys have been harmed by estrogen made to enter the water via women who take birth control pills.”

      • expect_resistance

        Everything humans do impacts the environment. What’s the answer eliminate all humans from the planet?

      • L-dan

        The quantities of estrogen from HBC pills that make it into our water pales in comparison to the hormones that make it there from the livestock industry. Tests would barely register the change if the humans stopped taking them. Additionally, pregnant women excrete more estrogen than normal (likewise pregnant cows, pigs, etc. in much greater numbers).

        This isn’t to say we shouldn’t be concerned with the compounds in our water. But in this case, it’s going to be more effective to look at regulating the livestock industry or remove compounds from the water supply than to regulate women’s pee.

  • Retinol13

    There are organizations that advocate for women’s right to self-determination in terms of sexual expression. They are not the loudest voices but they do exist.
    http://thecsph.org/
    http://www.isswsh.org/
    http://www.sexandculture.org/
    http://www.aasect.org/

    • http://www.digtanya.com Tanya Steele

      Thank you for this information, Retinol13!

  • Attila_L_Vinczer

    “In these sheets, we negotiate with men and boys who also feel that birth control (using a condom) is a nuisance.”

    Right. So use the birth control pill and risk transmitting STD-es. Got it. Makes total sense.

    If I only had more time to tear this article apart to it’s last character.

    Take note that some of these STDs are a result of younger women having unprotected intercourse.

    “Much of this is biologically driven because the cells where gonorrhea and chlamydia live are in the area of the cervix where younger women are more prone to becoming infected. But there are undoubtedly behavioral risk factors as well,” Weinstock said.”

    http://www.healio.com/infectious-disease/stds/news/print/infectious-disease-news/%7B85f74c99-01ff-4dc3-b2f6-f9a871815445%7D/std-rates-increasing-in-the-united-states

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      Having sexual intercourse must include being extremely responsible. But that factor seems to fall far below the guiding principals as indicated by the author of this piece.

      • Unicorn Farm

        “Having sexual intercourse must include being extremely responsible.”
        But don’t use birth control!! Cause then you’ll be in the water and hurt teh menzzzzzzzz

        • fiona64

          And if you do get pregnant, don’t have an abortion because you are “violent, bitter and misandrist.” Or, do get an abortion because child support is slavery.

          Seriously. There was one Dudebro on the other thread who insisted that this was the case … and that child support was worse than pregnancy. Yeah, I could totally see the lash marks on his angry white dude person …

          • Unicorn Farm

            Right, Dennis?! He was a real charmer.
            Pretty much the only option is to do what your particular owner– er, man in your life– says you have to.

    • lady_black

      You realize that women using the pill are not all young and uncommitted, right? Why would we need condoms? Unprotected intercourse is only a problem where people are infected, and not exclusive. STDs are NOT caused by “younger women having sex.” They are getting the STDs from someone.

    • Suba gunawardana

      “Take note that some of these STDs are a result of younger women having unprotected intercourse.”

      With whom are these women having unprotected intercourse? Themselves? If so, from where do the STDs come?

  • Attila_L_Vinczer

    It seems to me, many of the women here are incapable of meaningful communication with a male.

    • Unicorn Farm

      I promise, it’s just you.
      Why don’t you answer my question- please demonstrate that estrogen in water is tangibly harming men and boys?

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        According to you and your female friends, I am unintelligent. So why would you ask me to produce a hypothesis. Let alone conclusive evidence, which would be promptly dismissed by the closed minded people here, like you.

        I am not gullible contrary to your belief to the contrary. You would have me labour and then respond with some snarly infantile comment.

        You would disagree with me just for the sake of disagreement. Do you have a real name? And if you do, why don’t you use it? Probably, because then you could be held to account for your moronic rhetoric.

        • fiona64

          So, you don’t have a source, then?

        • Unicorn Farm

          “According to you and your female friends, I am unintelligent. So why would you ask me to produce a hypothesis. Let alone conclusive evidence, which would be promptly dismissed by the closed minded people here, like you.”
          I understand that you are unintelligent. But I expect people who are advocating for an idea (that men and boys are being harmed by estrogen in the water and therefore women should stop taking BCPs) to be able to support that idea with real evidence and facts. If you have no evidence for something, why be concerned about it? It’s like screaming that the moon is going to fall on you and expecting everyone to care, cause you dreamt it.
          Alright you sad little man, and the lovely ladies on RHRC- I am off to the lake for the weekend. Cheers, ladies! (and feminist men :) )

          • expect_resistance

            Have an awesome weekend!!!!

          • Unicorn Farm

            Thanks!! It was so lovely :)

    • redlemon

      Oh, I assure you, we have meaningful conversations with men all the time.

      It’s just you.

    • fiona64

      Nope, just you.

    • Jennifer Starr

      I communicate with males quite frequently. Unlike yourself, most of them are sane.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Fortunately you don’t speak for all males.

    • StealthGaytheist

      If we could only find one…

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      Actually I stand corrected. I did manage to strike up respectful meaningful conversation here. That does not mean, I concede to the ills of feminism I detest.

      • fiona64

        I have acknowledged elsewhere a respectful conversation between the two of us. I do not understand, nor is it most likely my business, what caused you to be so angry at the idea of women having equal rights with men … but I wish you all the best.

  • expect_resistance

    This article reminds me of Laura Mulvey’s essay, “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema” and the concept of “male gaze” as a feature of gender power asymmetry in film. Mulvey
    penned her essay in 1975 but it still holds true to day.(http://imlportfolio.usc.edu/ctcs505/mulveyVisualPleasureNarrativeCinema.pdf)

    • http://www.digtanya.com Tanya Steele

      Will read. Thanks, e_r.

  • Attila_L_Vinczer

    Look at this. I just caused this dormant article to have a lively debate.

    • Jennifer Starr

      You’ve certainly given us all a really good laugh.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Good to hear that I was able to effect some pleasure for you all.

      • fiona64

        I’m pretty sure he’s used to having women laugh at him …

        • Jennifer Starr

          You know, if someone had told me a week ago that we’d have a poster incensed by ladies taking contraception and peeing, I seriously would’ve thought they were kidding. These MRA types are just way, way out there. It’s beyond belief.

          • fiona64

            I do believe that this truly trumps the anti-choice chap who thought that he was rescuing Snow White with his “sidewalk counseling” where lulz are concerned.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I think this trumps him for sure. Of all the crazies–this one is probably the top so far:)

          • lady_black

            I have trouble deciding whether this one is crazier than Rita Joseph. I think it’s a tie.

  • Attila_L_Vinczer

    Now that I have effectively FTSU, it is time for me to vacate this camp of vitriolic ignorant women.

    • fiona64

      Oh, look, friends; Prince Charming is taking his pail and shovel and leaving the beach. Stick that flounce!

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Actually you might need the pail to pee in and the shovel to remove all your crap. There is nothing of use to take from this infected beach.

        • fiona64

          And yet, here you are, making the floor into your litter box yet again.

          Couldn’t stick the flounce, I see. Quelle surprise.

          • redlemon

            Misandry keeps him from flouncing properly. We’re keeping him down so much that he can’t even succeed in flouncing off into the sunset.

          • fiona64

            I think it’s because there’s lady-pee in the water at our beach. ;-)

        • A. T.

          ..What is with the excrement obsession? I don’t understand. o_O

    • expect_resistance

      You said that days ago. The door is wide open what’s stopping you.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You keep getting in the way.

        • expect_resistance

          Nope, the door is wide open.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            The door is fully obscured and blocked by you. Mind stepping aside?

          • expect_resistance

            No I’m not. Totally out of the way.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Must be your shadow I am seeing.

          • expect_resistance

            Ah don’t be scared of my shadow, I’m really out of the way as I’m chillin with my hubby drinking a glass if wine listening to democracy now.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Are you drunk?

          • lady_black

            There’s something wrong with him, but I don’t think it’s alcohol.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Weirdo.

    • lady_black

      You didn’t FTSU. You only delude yourself. Nobody here is deluded by you.

      • fiona64

        That’s all he’s got: self-delusion, misogyny, anger … and fear of lady-pee.

      • Shan

        I had to look up that FTSU thing. Here’s something interesting I found from Paul Melam. And by “interesting” I mean really disturbing.

        http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/the-fembots-are-already-bent-out-of-shape/

        “You see, I find you, as a feminist, to be a loathsome, vile piece of
        human garbage. I find you so pernicious and repugnant that the idea of
        fucking your shit up gives me an erection.”

        • kitler

          But but..its just satire so its OK cuz like AVFM is a counter cultural movement just like the hippies with their peace signs!

          • Shan

            Yeah, no, I don’t think that post was meant to be satire…Ugh.

    • A. T.

      I’m sure if I come to AVFM, I’d be welcomed with total respect and no threats of physical violence, like in the other thread?

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        I give you my personal word there would be ZERO chance of threats of physical violence against you or anyone else. Contrary to feminist propaganda, we do not tolerate any violence against anyone. I think you would be surprised of being treated respectfully.

        • A. T.

          I would be and we shall see. I may brave it, I may not.

          • fiona64

            I will say this: there was a brief exchange between Mr. V and myself in this thread that was polite and even somewhat pleasant. It was an anomaly … but it is there.

          • A. T.

            I’ve had two recent conversations with staff that have turned pleasant enough. Not enough that I was ready to be interviewed, but I appreciated it all the same.

        • Shan

          “I think you would be surprised of being treated respectfully.”

          I would, considering how you’ve behaved at RHRC.

          • A. T.

            Heh. I was thinking of the threats of violence from MRAs that followed. I do know that they delete them over there though, that is true.

  • lady_black

    Well, Attila went bye-bye. I guess he really CAN’T talk to us however he please.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Good. Creepazoid.

    • Shan

      I contacted the mods because I got sick of him pissing everywhere.

      • BelligerentBruncher

        How tolerant of you.

        • Shan

          You can live in a piss-soaked world if you want. That doesn’t mean the rest of us have to.

          • fiona64

            BB will be on his way out any minute now, as usual. I really wish there were a way to ban by IP address in Disqus, but there isn’t.

  • http://myindigolives.wordpress.com/ Ellie K

    This is factually incorrect: “This restrictive sexual covenants began with the Puritans, and is woven into the fabric of our sheets.” No, I’m NOT picking on the grammatical error! The source cited there, from a Society Pages post, is incorrect in numerous ways. Also, it is about Victorian era England and western Europe more than the USA.

    This post doesn’t need references to the Puritans to make its point. Restrictive sexual covenants pertaining exclusively to women have existed in various forms for a long time, globally. Don’t just blame the Puritans and the USA. It runs much deeper than that.

    • Shan

      So why nitpick?

      • http://myindigolives.wordpress.com/ Ellie K

        Because it potentially reduces credibility and makes it easier for contrary readers to fixate on it.
        Also, because the author doesn’t need to look for extra authority on that point. Her own is sufficient.

  • blfdjlj

    Hobby lobby does not limit your right to access birth control.

    • lady_black

      No, it deprives women of something they otherwise have a right to.

      • blfdjlj

        No one has a right to get something paid by someone else. Since the employer pays for the insurance, it makes sense for him to have influence over what is included there.

        • kitler

          The employee pays through their labour.

          • Shan

            And through the insurance premiums that come out of their paychecks! Why are employers the only ones with the right to say what the premiums should pay for?

        • lady_black

          You keep saying that, but it’s STILL a part of the ACA law. Why do you think there was a court case?

        • Shan

          Employees pay their premiums. HL employees will continue to pay premiums even when BC isn’t covered. But those premiums won’t be reduced by what BC costs, so they’ll effectively be paying for it twice.

          • lady_black

            They may even end up paying more when pregnancies go up in number.

        • fiona64

          Really, one does grow weary of explaining how compensation packages work …

          Which of your medical decisions should be made by your employer?