Men’s Rights Conference Host Says Women Who Drink and Dance Are ‘Begging’ for Rape


Cross-posted with permission from Political Research Associates.

A recent USA Today article on the inaugural conference for men’s rights activists (MRAs) asked whether it marked “A kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars.” In May, Elliot Rodger killed six people after regularly posting misogynistic rants against the “oppressive feminist system,” and a video warning, “If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you.”

In the intervening time, the First Inaugural Conference for Men’s Issues, hosted by A Voice for Men, faced a successful campaign asking Detroit’s Hilton DoubleTree hotel to cancel the event. The petition, which obtained close to 6,000 signatures, pointed out that MRAs were designated a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center in 2012. It continued, “MRAs are linked to the recent mass shooting in UCSB, wherein a young man declared that he would exact revenge on all the women who had rejected him. MRAs are linked to false rape statistics, further perpetuating the dangerous myth that women, ‘make it up for attention.’ MRAs are linked to threats of rape and murder against women who dare to speak out against them.”

Jaclyn Friedman writes in “A Look Inside The Men’s Rights Movement”: “One of their tactics is to put out a cash bounty for personal information—including home addresses, places of employment, email addresses, and phone numbers—of feminists who upset them. The deluge of hate mail, rape and death threats for those on the receiving end of these witch hunts is hard to describe.”

After news outlets connected Rodger to groups in the MRA sphere, Paul Elam, founder of A Voice for Men, asserted that his organization is committed to nonviolence and that Rodger was not a member. However, Katie McDonough writes at Salon that “until the moment that he is alleged to have killed six women and men, Elliot Rodger was every bit the same as the other men who are defined by their resentment toward women and their sense of bitter victimization in the world.” While she deems it “irresponsible to lay this violence at the feet of the men’s rights activists with whom Rodger seemed to find support for his rage,” nonetheless it “denies reality to pretend that Rodger’s sense of masculine entitlement and views about women didn’t matter or somehow existed in a vacuum.” In 2009, another man who filled an online journal with misogynistic rants killed three women at a fitness center.

Former Political Research Associates researcher Chip Berlet has written extensively on how toxic rhetoric can feed violence, and the danger in viewing these perpetrators as mentally disturbed lone wolves. As Berlet said following the murder of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller, “[Right-wing pundits] are not legally culpable for the assassination of Dr. Tiller, but they must share some portion of moral responsibility for creating a dangerous environment.”

Moral Responsibility

While claiming to be a pacifist, Paul Elam has gloried in the idea of a judge who ruled against fathers being “doused with gasoline and set afire.” He opposes abortion (and, it seems, adoption and motherhood too) and wrote a Mother’s Day article saying, “If you have a vagina, the blood of all those children, who are abused far more at the hands of women than men, has stained your skin and caked around the cuticles of your fingers.” He further argued, “Progress for men will not be gained by debate, reason or typical channels of grievance … The progress we need will only be realized by inflicting enough pain on the agents of hate, in public view, that it literally shocks society out of its current coma.” Would the murders Elliot Rodger committed fit that vision of public shock?

Then there’s Elam’s 2010 post about women who go clubbing, accept drinks, make out, and enter a man’s apartment, who end up “victims” [quotation marks his] of rape. “In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED .. They are freaking begging for it. Damn near demanding it.”

The next paragraph goes on to claim that women get raped because they are stupid, arrogant, and narcissistic. The post was scrubbed from A Voice for Men’s website as of 2014, and Elam claims it was intended as satire on the impossibility of promoting self-protection without being accused of victim-blaming. The scrubbing of the post smacks of an attempt to clean up his image, as the organization attempts to mainstream itself to the public. Yet even the “satirical” message, if we take it as such, is that empty-headed women need to be informed by a man that they face risks and that the solution is for women to smarten up not address what Katie McDonough calls “toxic male entitlement.”

Other scheduled conference speakers have blamed women for the state of the world because they choose “fucking monsters” and “assholes” rather than “nice guys” (which we assume the male MRAs consider themselves); asserted that women are “demanding” desired violence with their behavior—what another speaker calls “consensual violence” (consent would be a negotiated BDSM situation, not domestic abuse); equated paying for dinner and not getting sex to “a male version of date rape”; and argued that when a woman’s “nonverbal ‘yeses’ … conflict with those verbal ‘noes,’ that the man not be put in jail for choosing the ‘yes’ over the ‘no.’”

Visiting A Voice for Men’s website today, the first thing I noticed was a speaker denouncing feminism as never about gender equality, but always about misandry and “blaming men.” According to MSNBC’s coverage, the first day of the conference was attended by over 100 participants, and focused on rants about the “evil empire” of feminism. Barbara Kay, a columnist for Canada’s National Post, claimed that rape on campus is nothing more than “buyer’s remorse” and rape culture a “baseless moral panic.” (Note: men’s rights activists include women; structural patriarchy and misogyny influence the beliefs of everyone.)

This is a kinder, gentler turn?

As Jaclyn Friedman writes, “you’ll find women (and, gasp!, even feminists) in leadership in most of the institutions actually working to make life safer for men. It’s feminists who fought a long and recently successful battle to ensure that male victims are included in the FBI’s definition of rape. … Feminists have ensured that, through the Violence Against Women Act that MRAs oppose, the overall rate of intimate partner violence in the U.S. declined 64 percent between 1994 and 2010, and that decline is distributed evenly between male and female victims.”

I was proud to be among those feminist women who worked on the campaign to improve the FBI definition of rape. In college, as a committed feminist, I took a course titled “The Masculine Mystique,” which analyzed the problems that a patriarchal, homophobic, violent system causes men, especially considering stereotypes against men of color and the disproportionate number of black men in prison (most egregiously for harmless drug offenses). An inclusive gender justice movement is already a part of the feminist sphere, and expanding as women and feminist gain more authority and ability to make change.

The men’s rights movement, with its history and present-day of virulent anti-woman and anti-feminist hate speech, is not the place to look for a “kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars.” Don’t be fooled by a single pragmatic attempt at portraying a more respectable image.

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  • fiona64

    The men’s rights movement, with its history and present-day of virulent
    anti-woman and anti-feminist hate speech, is not the place to look for a
    “kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars.” Don’t be fooled by a single
    pragmatic attempt at portraying a more respectable image.

    This, x 1000.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

      I love how “anti-woman” and “anti-feminist” get lumped together, even though the vast majority of women do not and never have identified as feminists–and even though there are plenty of examples of feminism failing to deliver on its promises to women, let alone men, and shuffling its own dirty under the rug.

      Mind you, if you asked any of us, you’d know that most of us don’t think feminism is the only problem; but as well-financed feminist institutions spread terrible information and terrible policies, while other “nice” feminists say nothing about it, well, someone’s got to challenge it.

      • goatini

        //the vast majority of women do not and never have identified as feminists//

        Dream on.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

          Huffington Post / YouGuv poll:

          http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_gender_0411122013.pdf

          77% of women do not identify as feminists.

          But most do believe in equal rights. So one possibility is that all these people (like me, or like Paul Elam) who believe in equal rights are feminists and just don’t understand the word. Or, there’s something wrong with feminism. I eventually decided the latter was the case, which is why I no longer identify as feminist.

          • goatini

            Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

          • Renaissance Man

            And anti-feminism is the radical notion that women are adults. What’s your point?

          • goatini

            As I attained majority at 18, have been working full-time for 40+ years, and am the breadwinner in my family, I am completely sure that you have no idea what you are talking about.

          • fiona64

            He’s just pissed because women are unimpressed by him.

          • Renaissance Man

            Here is Alison Tieman’s classic video series on this issue. The relevant point refers to agency and who is perceived as having it. BOTH feminists and conservative traditionalists portray women as objects that have things happen to them (media portrayals, education, etc) instead of fully capable moral and intellectual agents capable of making decisions themselves (a convenient way to dismiss women who have made choices feminists don’t agree with). https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJOWMtQBIv1sFM-u8FIKZxK0_AkoBzeCV

            In fact, Karen Straughn has pointed out this framing (of men acting on agentless women) dates back to Seneca Falls (i.e. there is no feminism without Patriarchy theory): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4j-H8oehFU

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Feminism is the notion that men are to blame for everything.

          • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

            You really need to get out more.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4LkrQCyIz8

            A woman saying yes to a date with a man is literally insane and ill-advised, and the whole species’ existence counts on them doing it. I don’t know how they…how do women still go out with guys, when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat to women. Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We’re the worst thing that ever happens to them. That’s true! You know what our number one threat is? Heart disease.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong!

          • wakjob

            the radical notion that women are victims of men, inherently, innately, eternally. No number of handicaps and accommodations can ever fully compensate them, but by all means keep trying.

          • Renaissance Man

            Anti-feminism is the radical notion that women are adults . . .

            (what is so offensive about that comment that you have to delete it, moderators?)

          • fiona64

            You’re funny, sweetie …

            You have taken a single study out of context … and neglected to include an important piece of the text, which stated that 94 percent of those polled believed that men and women should be social, political and economic equals. And guess what, Deano? That’s feminism.

            Paul Elam doesn’t believe in equal rights, BTW. He wants to return to the days when white men were in charge of everything, there was no such crime as marital rape, women and people of color knew their places, etc.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            No it’s not feminism. Feminism is a hate movement and doesn’t own the word ‘equality.’

          • fiona64

            Feminism is a hate movement

            Citation needed, from a reputable source.

            While we’re talking about hate movements, though:
            http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

          • wakjob

            I think you know it’s a little more specific than that. “A belief that men and women should be social, political and economic equals” is not the definition of feminism. The Men’s Human Rights Movement, by that definition is itself feminism. (Which is obviously BS) No, it is that stated belief standing atop the assumption, taken on faith, that men and women are not currently equal, men are advantaged, and men aim to keep it that way. Does it matter that 90% of the homeless are male? Nope. Women are still worse off, because they aren’t equally represented among CEOs.

          • fiona64

            It’s funny that you make up definitions to suit yourself but that have no basis in reality.

            Webster’s says this (which is exactly what I said):

            fem·i·nism
            ˈfeməˌnizəm/
            noun
            noun: feminism
            the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

            I’m sorry that you have trouble with this concept. Perhaps someone can help you.

          • Shan

            “Does it matter that 90% of the homeless are male?”

            Of course it does. Society has bad effects for both genders (and sometimes worse for trans-ones). It’s not the fault of women or feminism if 90% of homeless people are male.

          • DEDC

            It is not the fault of men or the non-existent Patriarchy if 99% of the women are not CEOs.

          • Shan

            And presuming that being a CEO should be the ultimate goal of humanity kind of underscores the fact that we DO live in a patriarchal culture.

          • DEDC

            “And presuming that being a CEO should be the ultimate goal of humanity
            kind of underscores the fact that we DO live in a patriarchal culture.”

            That what, feminism itself is also completely bitched-out to? What is with the quotas for women CEOs and politicians within femtardism then? And you were doing so well right up until those words ‘patriarchal culture’ (I actually agreed with you 100% up until then).

            Invoking faith-based non sequiturs has a way of keeping you in perpetual cognitive dissonance.

          • Shan

            “Invoking faith-based non sequiturs has a way of keeping you in perpetual cognitive dissonance.”

            Yeah, read that again. Several times.

          • DEDC

            OMG!

            You are right! All I had to do was read it over and over and now, The Hegemonic Patriarchy™ does indeed exist!

            As do pink unicorns. The Bible is true because it says it is!

            EPIC FAIL.

          • Shan

            Good job! Hodor Hodored again!

          • DEDC

            Referencing shit television literature can’t save your fails.

          • Shan

            Denying the existence of patriarchy doesn’t make it go away. Talk about an epic fail.

            Look, I acknowledge that my white privilege exists. I don’t freak out when I’m called on it. You don’t have to go LALALALALA about patriarchy just because you’re too scared to acknowledge your male privilege.

          • sputnik

            “… 94 percent of those polled believed that men and women should be social, political and economic equals. And guess what, Deano? That’s feminism.”

            That may be feminism on paper, but that’s not feminism in the outcome. (Something about equaltiy of outcomes comes to mind… But, no. Not going there.)

            “Paul Elam doesn’t believe in equal rights, BTW. He wants to return to the days when white men were in charge of everything,… ” etc.

            Reading comprehension, much?

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    Hmm

  • TheBrett

    I hate even dignifying them with the label they choose for themselves, “Men’s Rights Organizations”. That’s like calling the KKK a “white people advancement society”. They’re misogynistic hate groups that revel in attacks and terrorization of women and their allies who speak out against misogyny, domestic violence, and rape.

    Other scheduled
    conference speakers have blamed women for the state of the world
    because they choose “fucking monsters” and “assholes” rather than “nice
    guys” (which we assume the male MRAs consider themselves);

    Oh, this pisses me off so much. Speaking as a socially awkward guy myself who grew up with other friends and neighbors who were more socially well-adjusted, I have never heard this complaint from anyone like them, about how “all the womenz” are “going for assholes”. It’s always come from either other awkward guys or guys who were whiny assholes.

    • A. T.

      I was socially awkward in high school. Unlikely the idiots, I didn’t blame all men either.

      • Phil McCracken

        WAKE UP!!!! MEAN ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!!!!!!!

    • Mike Brentnall

      Try not to be pissed off. Save your energy. Know about why one shouldn’t.
      Watch the videos recorded at the conference for yourself.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    I think people can read the website themselves young lady.

    For readers that can think for themselves see the link below.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/?s=SPLC

    • goatini

      //young lady//

      Aren’t we a condescending snot?

      • BelligerentBruncher

        When criticizing someone for being condescending, it’s probably not in your best interest to call someone a “snot.”

        Just saying.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

          LOL!

        • lady_black

          When someone is condescending, I call it like I see it. Deal with it, young man.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Do you think calling someone “young man” isn’t condescending, yet calling someone “young lady” is?

            There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance going on to justify that.

          • lady_black

            Yes it was condescending. And it was meant that way.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            That’s a peculiar flaw in logic when criticizing someone for being condescending.

            I suppose you’re free to do whatever you want…it just doesn’t make sense.

          • fiona64

            Poor, angry little Chris. Does your mommy know you’re playing on the computer again?

        • goatini

          Really? Gee, and I didn’t even use a sexist pejorative.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Don’t worry about.

            Lady_black covered for you while you were out.

          • goatini

            How nice of you to conflate us into one container.

      • expect_resistance

        I hate when they say that or the term “gals.” Like they can’t say women.

        • Auntie Alias

          Saying ‘women’ would suggest that we’re adult human beings. Can’t have that!!

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            What? You can be an adult female human being, a woman, and still be an idiot, by the way.

          • A. T.

            Says the person that reads AVFM. Mhm.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Says the person who works for AVfM, actually. And what I wrote is 100% logical and consistent. Your comeback, for want of a better description – is a complete non sequiter. Or, to put it in parlance that you might understand – lolz, fail.

          • A. T.

            No, that would explain it. It would explain quite a bit actually. I thought you were just a troll, but this is something else entirely, like Suz at the other thread or one of Dean’s appearances. At least I know what to expect. And hello there.

            And yes, I do appreciate your vocabulary, internet slang and otherwise.

          • fiona64

            non sequiter

            Non sequitur. If you don’t understand Latin, please don’t use it. Thanks in advance.

          • Auntie Alias

            About the only time AVFM uses the word ‘women’ is when they’re talking about women sympathetic to their cause. For everyone else, it’s slurs for the most part.

          • A. T.

            I really enjoyed Suz trying to explain to me how using various slurs was not degrading because AVFM only meant the *bad* women and some women like it anyway.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            There are nice women.
            There are good women.
            There are moral women.
            There are not so nice women.
            There are bad women.
            There are immoral women.
            Some of all of these women are MHRAs.
            Some of all these women are not MHRAs.

            I have no problem calling a woman a woman regardless of her position, or moral compass. To think otherwise is lunacy of the highest order.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            We know,

            adult human beings = grown up responsibility, that would fu*k femini$m

          • goatini

            Been working full time for 40 years, not sure what the hell you are talking about.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            not sure what the hell you are talking about

            and therein lies the problem…

  • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

    If you’re going to be a journalist – some pointers.

    1: Spelling – Learn to spell people’s names properly. The shooter to whom you refer is Elliot Rodger – not Rodgers.

    2: Research – AVfM were never designated a hate group by the SPLC. Arthur Goldwag himself has verified this. You either don’t know how to research or you are lying. Either way – you don’t look good as a result.

    3: Sources – David Futtrelle is not a reliable source – for anything. He is a discredited hack who has been repeatedly caught lying, exaggerating, and quote mining to cast aspersions about his opponents. He’s such a hack that he was single-handedly responsible for ABC 20/20 pulling their piece on the ‘manosphere’ last year because they used him as a source and later found out that his information was little more than cynical quote-mining; it was nonsense of the highest order. If you want to humiliate yourself by quoting this imbecile – go ahead. Or, you could try to be ethical.

    4: Tell the truth – you haven’t been doing a good job of this in your article. Try telling the truth more often. As difficult as it may seem and as much as it may clash with your preconceived notions – uncovering the truth is the raison d’etre for journalism. It should be a guiding star. You have no right to call yourself a journalist if you’re going to just sling around baseless insinuations and worse still – parrot tired, exhausted canards about the men’s movement. Many within the mainstream media are catching on to what we’re about and are seeing that what you portray is little more than mean-spirited lies. If you want to be taken seriously in future I would suggest that you look at what you’re doing more critically and realize that mud-slinging, particularly in an age where people are now able to discern truth from lies pretty easily, will send your career on a one-way trip to the sewer. If that’s the sort of journalist you want to be – I feel sorry for you.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

      Agree, just another useful bimbo.

  • Auntie Alias

    Thanks, Alex! I hope you’re not the subject of an attack piece on their site. They’re smearing journalists who wrote negative reviews of the conference. If you correspond with them by email, DO NOT include your telephone number or they’ll publish it online.

    It’s interesting that they invited the MSM to attend, convinced that once the world saw what their “issues” were, the public would embrace their ideas. Inevitably, that didn’t happen because their hate-filled diatribes repel decent people. Instead of learning from their mistakes, they go into attack mode in an attempt to discredit their critics.

    It’s all about money. AVFM incites hatred against women and feminists to keep the dollars rolling in from misogynists. They do nothing to address the issues they claim to care about.

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      Yawn. Boring. People can make up their own minds. They know how to use the internet. This stuff doesn’t work – except on idiots.

      • A. T.

        Like the ones that read AVFM and take it seriously? Yes.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        Shhhhh don’t let feminists know that people can use the internet. lol!

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

        Only journalists who lie get “attack pieces.” Of course, this post is full of lies, distortions, and half-truths, but I’m not sure it’s worth of an attack piece, though it’ll probably get a link in the hope that someone is interested in correcting the record.

        Anyone who wants to know the truth and can stomach the whole idea that someone might question feminist ideology and still have something of value to say knows where to find us.

        • fiona64

          Please cite any of the lies in this article and disprove them with citations from reputable sources.. I will wait.

          Thanks for admitting that you MRAssholes go after women who don’t bow down and worship you, though.

      • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

        So why are you wasting time posting here?

    • Renaissance Man

      Uh, not a hate piece. This ‘journalist’ did all of her research using materials from Elam’s ideological opponents, such as Jacklyn Friedman. Let me ask you this: would it make sense to write a piece on a Democratic policy initiative based solely on Republican talking points and conservative think tanks? Might be a little biased, huh? She makes a number of claims that are not backed up, such as the supposed “bounty” put out on feminists. Really? Since I have been following gender politics online, it has been the feminists that have doxed and harassed opponents, taking forum debates into the real world.

      • Auntie Alias

        Did you notice where she said she’d looked at AVFM herself? Just because she provides links to her readers doesn’t mean she relied on those links for her information.

        ” it has been the feminists that have doxed and harassed opponents”

        Who and when?

      • fiona64

        Since I have been following gender politics online, it has been the
        feminists that have doxed and harassed opponents, taking forum debates
        into the real world.</i.

        Citations needed.

  • BelligerentBruncher

    Alex, in terms of gender equality, why are the birth control methods that are used by women deemed to be required to be paid for by insurance under Obamacare, and the methods that are used by men (condoms) not?

    Why is the “Violence Against Women Act” still named that when it clearly isn’t a female only issue? I know the act offers some protection for men, but why keep the name?

    • lady_black

      So your complaints are semantic, and the fact that the ACA doesn’t cover non-prescription items. Hilarious. It doesn’t cover our tampons either.

      • BelligerentBruncher

        It doesn’t cover your tampons??? Well, then how in the world can you be expected to pay for that? I guess they’ll be a lot of women going without tampons because Uncle Sam isn’t willing to force insurance companies to pay for them.

        BTW, hormonal birth control should be OTC. But, then what would you be able to be outraged over?

        • lady_black

          I’m sure YOU think hormonal birth control should be OTC. That’s because you know nothing about it. And we could play shoulda-woulda-coulda all day long. Hormonal BC is NOT OTC, and IUDs never can be (some of which are hormonal as well). Neither can the diaphragm. The implants or the shots are hormonal birth control. Should women be trained in minor surgery to implant their own implants? Since what you say is impossible, perhaps you should have to go to a doctor and have your condoms prescribed for you. Would that suit you? No, I didn’t THINK so. Now shut up and sit down.

          • James Huff

            Spoken like a true Seneca Falls Woman. Feminists have been telling men to sit down and shut up since 1848.

          • expect_resistance

            Oh chill out she’s speaking to our resident teen troll.

          • lady_black

            He needs to sit down and shut up. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            ACOG agrees with me. Do you think that they also don’t know what they’re talking about?

            (I never mentioned implants, IUDs, diagpragms, etc, so why did you even bring it up?)

          • lady_black

            Dude… I already explained this to you and more than once. Go away.

          • BelligerentBruncher
        • Unicorn Farm

          ” I guess there will be a lot of women going without tampons because Uncle Sam isn’t willing to force insurance companies to pay for them.”
          Let me know when the first prescription tampon comes on the market.

          • Shan

            “Let me know when the first prescription tampon comes on the market.”

            My brain refuses to even contemplate conditions that would require a prescription tampon.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wise.

        • lady_black

          I will continue to pay for tampons, and you will continue to pay for condoms. Along with bandages, boo-boo creams, aspirin, Advil, vitamins and all other OTC items. By the way, condoms do not become a covered item when women pay for them.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Hormonal birth control should be OTC. I’m down with that.

          • lady_black

            That’s because you are IGNORANT. Hormonal birth control isn’t just “pills.” Let’s begin there with your ignorance. Do some research, come back prepared to discuss intelligently. Until then, I’ll be flagging you. Have a nice day.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Flagged for what exactly? I’m curious. Did I say something to offend you?

            And I have done a little research. The medical experts tend to agree with me that hormonal birth control should be OTC. I thought I’d throw that out there before you flag this comment.

          • A. T.

            Have you done research on the cost to Taxpayers of unplanned births? Or the cost save when birth control is provided? I’m going to bet ‘no’.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            We also need a male pill or similar.

          • lady_black

            A pill is probably an unrealistic concept. But they are testing an injection in India. I’m surprised you aren’t aware.

          • lady_black

            No the medical experts do NOT agree with you. I’ll confess, I haven’t flagged you personally as long as you are discussing reasonably. Let me straighten you out. ALL hormonal contraceptives can never be OTC. Some oral forms might be. But when you say “hormonal contraceptives” what you really mean are ORAL contraceptives, not “hormonal” contraceptives.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “No the medical experts do NOT agree with you.”

            Yes, ACOG, agrees with me. Last time I checked, they are medical experts who have spent their entire careers dealing with women’s reproductive health issues.

            http://www.acog.org/Resources_And_Publications/Committee_Opinions/Committee_on_Gynecologic_Practice/Over-the-Counter_Access_to_Oral_Contraceptives

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            You’re going to flag people because you feel that they don’t understand the myriad types of birth control? WTF?

          • lady_black

            Yes. This is a website for women’s reproductive health. Not for whining MRA types who don’t know the difference between a piece of latex and a prescription medication. Those who post here are expected to at least have some vague idea what they are talking about. That’s not too high an expectation. We have men who post here all the time. They aren’t allowed to be idiots, either.

          • fiona64

            This is the same idiot (5×5) who thought women placed their own IUDs.

          • Shan

            I can. I have three extra elbows.

          • lady_black

            You can’t disguise your ignorance by adding the word “pills” to your comment, after the fact. You should have left your comment as it was, and admitted your error.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            OMG first world problems.

          • lady_black

            I’m not the one calling it a problem. Address your comment to your fellow douche bag who doesn’t know that Planned Parenthood and state health departments hand out condoms by the dozens, paid for by the taxpayer.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Not everyone can use Planned Parenthood condoms. Men’s health isn’t “one size fits all.” I need the expensive kind.

            Any of those arguments sound vaguely familiar?

          • kitler

            Can the wrong size condom cause horrific side effects and nearly kill you?

          • lady_black

            Yeah, they are pretty much one size fits all. Unless you have a micropenis. Then you have more important issues than condoms. A condom can be rolled down over a man’s head. The BIG head, not the little one.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; Chris. I’m pretty sure that they will eventually make condoms small enough for you.

          • expect_resistance

            Nice one. I’m still laughing at the throwing the hot dog down the hallway thing that you said the other day.

          • fiona64

            I thought about mentioning finger cots but I didn’t want to confuse poor Chris up there. ;-)

        • A. T.
      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        He’s making the point that VAWA treats domestic violence as though it is a gendered issue when the reality is that it’s not. He’s not arguing from a semantic point of view. In fact as more research is done in this area, we’re seeing that women are actually more violent. Still no shelters for men though.

      • expect_resistance

        Sounds like 5×5 or chris or whoever the hell the teen basement troll is. He’s hung-up on OCT BC pills, “Obamacare” the term “cognitive dissonance”

        • fiona64

          It is 5×5. He outed himself in another thread with his usual nonsense about “have you started a foundation to help these women.”

          • expect_resistance

            I saw him at MJ and thought he would be back. *sigh* He really needs to get a life.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        Stop deleting my comments.

        • fiona64

          No one is deleting your comments except the moderators.

          • kitler

            My comments have been restored. The mod told me that they have a script running now.

    • kitler

      Condoms are OTC.

    • A. T.

      Happy to support discussion of condoms being added if it’s a genuine hardship for people, will direct you to evidence that paying for birth control saves taxpayer dollars. Millions. You do like saving money, yes?

  • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

    So you deleted my comment in which I was critical of your article. Pathetic.

    • lady_black

      Gee, I certainly hope so. But not because you were critical, but because you violated the TOS.

      • BelligerentBruncher

        How did he violate TOS? By disagreeing with the author and pointing out specifics on how her article is filled with errors?

        • lady_black

          Well, as his comment was deleted, I’ll never know, will I?

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            So I violated the TOS but you don’t know how. Sure. We’ll all swallow that.

          • lady_black

            I’m not a moderator. Maybe the one who deleted your comment will explain it to you.

        • goatini

          The definition of “error” is NOT “I don’t agree with the fact presented”.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        At least you corrected the spelling error. I’ll give you that. But stop spreading bull about AVfM – are you going to correct the mistruth in your article where you claim that the SPLC called AVfM a hate group? That’s not true and never has been – and that’s what happens when you use crappy sources like Manboobz. Is it that you don’t know, don’t care, or are so driven by ideology that truth and ethics don’t matter to you?

        • lady_black

          I corrected no spelling error. And no, I am so driven by truth and ethics that your ideology doesn’t matter to me. As usual, you got it backwards.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Well – someone corrected the error. I don’t have an ideology, by the way. Your article is full of mistruths. You’re linking a sociopathic killer with our movement because it suits your feminist ideology. Elliot Rodger was not an MHRA. He never visited MHRA websites. We support the rights of men and boys and fight on those issues. Elliot Rodger was a guy who visited some PUA sites and then becamse an anti-PUA. PUA sites, from what I understand, are about teaching guys who aren’t successful with women how to be successful. Frankly, I find the enterprise to be pathetic and so do many in the MHRM. We focus on actual issues such as divorce, suicide, sexual assault, domestic violence, forced genital cutting, homelessness, and many others. None of those issues have anything to do with picking up women. Nothing whatsoever – but people like you are desperate to find some link that you can create so you can label us as dangerous.

            That’s pathetic.

            That’s untruthful.

            That’s what you’re doing.

          • kitler

            I’ve read AVFM.
            Many of the posters sound like sociopaths

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Nonsense. You don’t even know what a sociopath is.

          • kitler

            I’ve seen evangelical woman haters who stated that the only good woman is one who is barefoot and pregnant welcomed at avfm with open arms.

          • lady_black

            I do. And the other poster is correct.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Why are you like this? Your article is full of lies – and you know that it is! Who are you trying to convince?

          • lady_black

            Not my article.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            I’ve read AVFM.

            No you have not.

          • kitler

            Yes, I have.

          • goatini

            Yes, we have.

          • A. T.

            They leave up fun posts discussing domestic violence as an option toward women and women’s general inferiority. I’ve collected screenshots. This may or may not have changed as they cleaned up their image.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Quiet you silly bimbo!

          • A. T.

            :) Nope.

          • lady_black

            Nope, and flagged.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan
          • lady_black

            Have you seen the guys who post on PUA sites? They couldn’t snag any tail in a women’s prison. They are confidence men, taking the money of the gullible. Want women to like you? Take a shower, wash your hair, put on some deodorant and forget about so-called “game.” Games are for children. Act like a human fucking being, don’t set your sights too high and I guarantee you there is a woman out there for you.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            What’s a PUA?

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            I’ve never visited a PUA site so I can’t answer your question in a substantial way. I do know about them though and it all seems a bit odd to me – and I agree with you on your assessment. But that’s probably because I’ve never had any difficulty engaging with women. You’re right – treat them like human beings; women are human beings, after all. I’ve no problem with guys and gals sleeping around or doing whatever but that was never really my thing. In any case, I’m pretty happy in my relationship right now thanks – don’t need to look ‘out there.’

          • A. T.

            We played a game on Twitter- did Elliot Rodger say it or did AVFM? It was closer than you’d like in some cases. Women are the gateway to sex and more.

            But yes, he was into anti-PUA and not the MRM.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            lady_black acts like she owns this site, but I don’t think she wrote the article and I don’t think that she is an editor.

          • lady_black

            LOL. I already SAID that I’m not a moderator. But I am a member, and you aren’t.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            How do I become a member?

          • lady_black

            Never by suggesting that women cannot pay for their own tampons. Pro tip.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            I was making fun of the often repeated concept that if health insurance isn’t paying for something (a la Hobby Lobby birth control debacle) then women aren’t going to have “access” to it.

            It’s a farce. I don’t know any woman that would be dumb enough to simply stop taking birth control and therefore place herself at risk for much more expensive things (pregnancy, abortions, etc.) I don’t think women are that stupid.

          • expect_resistance

            By not being a troll.

          • Auntie Alias

            “We focus on actual issues such as divorce, suicide, sexual assault, domestic violence, forced genital cutting, homelessness, and many others.”

            You don’t DO anything about them. You just complain and blame women and/or feminists for every single one of those. Where was the MRM when Earl Silverman needed money to keep his men’s DV shelter afloat? Are there any links on the site to resources for men? I mean besides the dubious Dr. Tara.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            I keep hearing this and keep responding to it – we do plenty. We help guys in a lot of ways – but our main remit is in DRAWING ATTENTION TO THE ISSUES. Don’t worry – we’re just getting started. We’re getting bigger and bigger and moving into new areas every day. You want us to do something? Don’t worry.

          • Auntie Alias

            It seems bass-ackwards to me. Doing something concrete would draw attention to the issues more effectively than raging about women and feminists on the internet which just tanks AVFM’s credibility. AVFM would receive positive attention instead of negative.

            The only concrete activities I see are smears, harassment, and threats. Nothing that actually helps men who need it.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            We don’t like feminism and have serious problems with what feminists do – of course we’re going to be vocal about that. And stop conflating women with feminism – it’s not the same thing.

          • Auntie Alias

            I see hate slung at both feminists and women in general on AVFM.

          • sputnik

            “I see hate slung at both feminists and women in general on AVFM.”

            Seeing things, again? Fe– mi– ni– sm: we target feminism. Stop. conflating. feminism. with. “women in general”.

          • Auntie Alias

            The absence of fathers from the home is proof that women are stupid, heartless and profoundly unconcerned with their children’s well-being.

            –Janet Bloomfield
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/hanna-rosin-says-we-are-witnessing-the-end-of-men-oh-yeah-how-about-we-look-at-the-facts/

            And this is mostly why women, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, will never be able to compete successfully with men intellectually and nor, therefore, in any task or job which requires intellectual endeavor.

            –Angry Harry
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/why-men-are-more-intelligent-than-women/

            I have a better idea than yours. How about men just practice the same rights as women. Fair is fair, right? If a man knocks a woman up he should just chant a slogan like “My wallet, my choice,” and put her in the rear view for good.

            In fact, as many men as possible should choose this path for reproduction. It will be a benefit to society. Not that many men can see through the racket of hypergamy. Those that can may be genetically predisposed to that kind of intelligence. And the more those enlightened men pass their genes along as sperm donors, the easier it will be for the female cum receptacles out there to help us breed society back to sanity.

            – Paul Elam http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/karma-one-man-feminist-destroyer/

            Men also recognize that women are vindictively vengeful when slighted, and that rejecting women’s sexual advances, ignoring their attention-whoring, or calling them out on their idiocy can trigger their wrath.

            – August Løvenskiolds
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/evo-psych/its-not-the-laziness-its-the-sanity/

            …men learn quickly that if you piss women off, even inadvertently, they will recruit other men to beat the shit out of you.

            – August Løvenskiolds
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/evo-psych/its-not-the-laziness-its-the-sanity/

          • sputnik

            And in each quote, the phenomenon under examination is a manifestation of socially pervasive of gynocentrism, currently known as feminism. Each quote involves a minority subset of women. Women who act selfishly, contrary to the greater good for the greater number, will generally use feminism as a justification, or unknowingly engage in the action or behavior without serious immediate consequence because of pervasive social attitudes engendered, as it were, by feminism. The great majority of these things would not be happening without the steady erosion of men’s human rights through feminist-driven law.

            We’re speaking in generalities, here. People conversing in good faith recognize that generalities have exceptions. This sort of quote selection borders on “quote-mining”, taking things out of context, or taking people of otherwise obvious discernment too literally in “the heat of the moment”. People of good faith don’t do that, either. I’m not so mistrustful of my fellow human, not even you. Cheers.

            I believe that all humans are fundamentally good at the core, and I recognize misdirection when I see it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t even be talking to you. Cheers, once again.

            In general, these are some of the smartest people I’ve read on the subject. What they have to say in sum does not equal what you would like to claim for them, here, and far from it.

          • DEDC

            Why did femtards of the 60s burn their bras? Why did they shamelessly latch on to the civil rights movement even though they have never experienced slavery/Jim Crow? Why didn’t they just go in and ask for that job! Seems bass-ackwards to me.

          • ExpatMatt

            It helps to have people acknowledge the existence and gravity of a problem–like male suicide– before trying to solve it. For example, Mr. Silverman committed suicide (after his repeated failures to get gov’t assistance) before I even heard of the MHRM.

            When there’s at least a half-dozen ignored, marginalized or laughed-at male problems that are equally serious, and many other minor but legitimate issues men face more than women, then figuring out our agenda, and spreading awareness are valid first steps. Gotta have people, plans and cash before real change is possible. Best use of limited resources right now means that we talk, and ask questions, and debate, and get people to think about what we’re saying. I don’t agree with every word the MHRM says, or AVfM, or any one group, but…they raise crucial issues that are almost totally ignored or unsolved.

            Gandhi didn’t just waltz into S. Africa and end the laws targeting Indians. He didn’t topple the Raj on his first day back in India.

            Movements take time, publicity, money and experimentation to build, especially when they challenge a lot of firmly held beliefs. We don’t get tax money. We don’t get huge grants from the Rockefeller Foundation. We don’t get courted by politicians.

            Or does ‘consciousness raising’ only count when the New York Radical Women do it?

          • Auntie Alias

            Spreading awareness of legitimate issues can be done without misogyny. So far, most of the blame for these problems is pinned on women or feminists. It’s interesting that the few that can’t be blamed on us are given very little air time, like prison rape. Circumcision gets a lot of attention but even that’s distorted to cast blame on us.

          • DEDC

            “Are there any links on the site to resources for men? I mean besides the dubious Dr. Tara.”

            AVFM isn’t Google, Ant Futrelle.

            Google it.

            Then tell us why feminists in waves 1,2 ,3… n did/do ANYTHING other than raise money (only amongst themselves), and pass out information pamphlets on ‘how to get jobs without flashing your cleavage’?

            Then there is that elephant in the room who has apparently sat on your head: How do you raise money when too few people care?

          • Auntie Alias

            AVFM presets itself as promoting the rights of men and boys. It ought to provide resource links for them; e.g., crisis lines, legal firms, etc.

            Ironically, David Futrelle’s site does have some links for that purpose.

          • DEDC

            Unironically, AVFM does too. As much time as you spend there, you should know that. What is your point, Ms. Futrelle?

          • Auntie Alias

            i can’t find anything there. My point was clear: AVFM doesn’t do activism and can’t even be bothered compiling a list of resource links to help men.

          • DEDC

            Once vetted, there are too few to compile. There are some and they are there. YOU can’t find them because you are too busy trying or pretending to get offended on behalf of the women whose psychopathy you like to coddle and enable. Interesting too, you can’t see the irony of ‘too few resources’ in this context.

            Furthermore, for men, simply knowing that there is a problem (perpetuated by people of your ilk and yellow hacks such as yourself) and that people see it too and are thinking about it is enough. Not every visitor to AVFM goes to these forums. Nor do even most of them come after feminists. I do. Some just ignore your retarded faith-based commentary.

            My point, Ms. Futrelle is also clear: YOU can’t handle a culture where it is just as commonplace to call women out on their bullshit as men. You just can’t. Probably because YOU cast all men as the jock who made fun of you in the locker room in middle school; and cast all women as the homely one who let cry on her shoulder (but still deserves a really great guy who isn’t you). You are on the wrong side of history and you will have no legacy. Just another forgotten blue poodle.

          • Shan

            This is self-fulfilling prophesy material right here.

          • DEDC

            lol wut?

            the fails keep a comin’

          • Shan

            “lol wut?”

            I know men who have been fucked over by shitty women who now think all women are shitty, so this informs all their relationships with women because they now presume ALL women are shitty. That’s where the self-fulfilling prophesy part comes in. Because they think all women are shitty, that’s all they expect from women. But the women who are less likely to be shitty can smell that a mile away and so they avoid them. Which leaves only the shitty women to engage with those men and thereby confirm their bias.

            And, no, men aren’t the only ones who do that.

          • Auntie Alias

            There are plenty of resources for topics like parenting, DV, sexual violence, and men’s health. Take men’s health for example. Find links about circumcision, prostate cancer, men’s breast cancer, and other things that affect men and boys. List crisis hotline numbers in the U.S. and Canada.

            I’m suggesting this in good faith so I’ll ignore the remainder of your comment.

          • DEDC
          • Auntie Alias

            Thank you but this isn’t what I mean. There’s no list of external links on the AVFM site broken down into categories; e.g., resources on parenting, health, domestic violence, suicide prevention, sexual assault, and so on.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Are you ever going to actually type your comment or what? This isn’t difficult.

          • Auntie Alias

            You certainly have Elliot Rodger’s misogyny and sense of entitlement down pat.

          • lady_black

            Your comment ‘in reply’ to yourself is duly noted. But since you posted to “yourself” no one will ever be notified. Lucky for us.

        • A. T.

          AVFM promotes domestic violence, focuses on feminism almost as much as men and is hateful toward women in what it does write about them. Which article should I start with? Paul Elam finding his inner Christina, who’s abusive, shallow and materialistic, because women are? Women are sociopaths and this is why we can’t be friends- John Hembling? :)

          And there’s so much *more*.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Sounds awful, you should stage a protest.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            The only people that I know of who actively promote domestic violence are feminists. They do so in their point blank denial of a towering brick wall of fact – and claim that domestic violence is a gendered issue. By doing so they influence policy (VAWA, Duluth Model, Primary Aggressor Directives) and create more male victims of violence. Men have nowhere to go if they are victims of assault.

            Do you think one male victim of domestic violence is too many?
            Do you think men should have shelters or safe spaces that they can access?

            If you answer yes to either of these questions – you’re NOT a feminist.
            In Canada there are 593 government-funded shelters for female victims of domestic violence and not one for men. Zero.

            We know that domestic violence is not a gendered issue and recent research shows that women are actually more violent than men (that is to say that there are more instances of female-on-male IPV.) The Canadian Association for Equality are trying to establish a men’s centre in Toronto where men who are abused can go and seek help, whether its counselling, or legal advice. Feminists here in Toronto oppose the centre.

            How can you people live with yourselves knowing that this is done, day in day out, in your name?

            It’s sickening.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I was recently pleased to learn that in the last year and a half, one new shelter has started for men. They have four beds. For all of Canada. Which is infinitely better than 0, but that’s not saying much. We’ll need to do a profile on them soon.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            We should do that actually.

          • A. T.

            Jim: So you don’t read the comments section on AVFM? Or Paul Elam? Huh. That’s interesting. So the comments that promote and talk about DV as an option are….?

            Wanting VAWA to include far, far more services to male survivors is a valid complaint, one I agree with. I don’t have a place to (for example) safely send male survivors of sexual assault/domestic violence in my rural community and have to work with stop gap measures- hotels, sending them elsewhere, etc. Not all of that is VAWA’s fault, but the bias does NOT help.

            Why would taking male survivors seriously make me not a feminist?

            I don’t trust CAFE/Pizzey’s stats, but I agree violence toward men is underreported and recognized and women are more violent than we’ve realized in the past, certainly.

            I live with myself knowing I work with survivors in my community every day- men, women and children. You?

          • fiona64

            The only people that I know of who actively promote domestic violence are feminists.

            Citation needed.

          • Auntie Alias

            ‘In Canada there are 593 government-funded shelters for female victims of domestic violence and not one for men. Zero.’

            http://www.mens-resource-centre.ca/index.php?id=65

            It’s a program of The Laurel Centre. From a PDF:
            “The Laurel Centre receives approximately 75% of its funding from the Manitoba Government and United Way Winnipeg.”

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            We do not promote domestic violence, sorry. If you actually read us rather than cherry-picked articles and quotations other people told you to read, or talked to us like human beings (we’re easy to reach) you’d learn the truth. Instead all I really see here is a bunch of sorry stereotypes. Ah well. It’s easy to find the truth for anyone who wants to.

          • A. T.

            I’ve read the articles and yes, they do. You just cannot admit to that for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you’re the Managing Editor and have a vested interest in AVFM.

            I have talked to you. You gave me excuses about why it was okay to print articles like that and it didn’t *really* encourage domestic violence. The answer is never ‘that was wrong’ or ‘maybe we shouldn’t describe a women’s blood spattering on the wall in graphic detail’, but DARVO and you’re an evil feminist.

            Can you find me a single article that suggests women abusing men is a result of men nagging?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I have no vested interest in AVfM, I have a vested interest in a human rights struggle, which is why I run a regular radio show examining domestic violence issues and talking to some of the world’s top experts on it.

            Please explain when and where you spoke to me. I’d be happy to do a Hangout On Air with you to discuss these issues if you like.

          • A. T.

            You’re the managing Editor. I’d call that a vested interest and no, that’s not meant to be an insult as much as an observation.

            We spoke on Twitter. I believe we discussed the same article, even.

            I would have concerns about privacy with an on-air hangout. I’ve seen names and more come out.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            OK, so you haven’t spoken to me, you’ve exchanged a few brief shallow tweets with me (which is all anyone can do on Twitter).

            I find the fact that you won’t talk to me face-to-face like an adult to say more about you and your worldview than anything else.

            Dang it, I really need to keep my word and just walk away. Still, one last time: real conversation between human beings, open to you, you have only to reach out and say “OK.”

          • A. T.

            It’s the lure of the comments section?

            Right. It’s not the fact that I can read articles about feminists that have annoyed people on AVFM. :P

            But I do appreciate the offer and I will think about it.

          • DEDC

            “Can you find me a single article that suggests women abusing men is a result of men nagging?”

            The femtarded version is sanctioned by most of society: “He cheated on you? Well cut off his penis! ha ha! tee hee! Snigger snigger!”

            Feminism ever only was about the fragile female ego.

          • A. T.

            o_O I think you have issues beyond my ability to help. I suggest therapy.

          • DEDC

            Classic femsplain: “Don’t you know what you guys are really about? You are about what *WE* think you are about!”

          • A. T.

            Aw. I have a fan! A deranged one, but a fan! Go me.

          • DEDC

            “How can you people take a several hours over a few days in relative anonymity, discussing male infants getting part of their penises cut off, or how children are becoming alienated from their fathers, or how false allegations are destroying young men’s lives, when *I* am still getting whistled at and cat-called (because I am so hot of course) on my way to work! THE NERVE OF YOU PEOPLE!”

          • A. T.

            Yes, you have the ability to pull random disjointed statements together that don’t relate to what I said. Very impressed. You can type and put words together, neat! I was hoping for a point, but I’m overly optimistic. ._.

          • Shan

            ” I was hoping for a point, but I’m overly optimistic”

            That’s what I like about you.

            However, I do totally agree with DEDC about the chopping off of penis parts of infants. I’m SO against that. If my son wants to alter his penis or any other perfectly good body part after he’s old enough to decide to do it himself, his dad and I left it 100% up to him.

          • A. T.

            Yes. Very much the same here, though I don’t know if I’ll have or adopt kiddos. If there’s a baby boy, yeah, he can do anything upon adulthood.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        Please tell me you don’t have kids.

        • lady_black

          Yes I do. And I raised them to be just like me.

          • A. T.

            Yay, lady black! And I’m so sorry I’m late to the party. I know AVFM well and can reference articles when they give crap and/or lie. :)

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Hello from AVfM. Tell me about me.

          • A. T.

            You are Staff at a site that is consistently abusive toward women in general and feminists always. This is very sad. It has articles that promote violence towards women and is unapologetic about this, though, as seen in other posts, I get the run around when I bring up that up. I hope that means you don’t actually believe it at a deep level. ._.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            It’d be nice if you’d note that this almost always goes down to one article, years old, clearly marked as satire, and in response to a piece on a feminist site glorifying violence toward males.

            It’d be nice is all I’m saying.

          • A. T.

            I’m at.. let’s see. Mind 2012? In the archive. I haven’t caught up to 2014, which is my bad. The problem is that the articles date before and after that satire response. It was more than ‘one article’.

            Encouraging physical responses (if you don’t want to call it violence) as a response to violence is problematic for a lot of reasons. Let’s say it is straight up abuse? While things are improving (mandatory arrest laws are having interesting effects) there can definitely be some bias’ against men. Advising a guy to get physical isn’t the same thing as ‘safe’. Nor would advising a woman to get physical be keeping her safe.

            Sometimes self-defense is necessary, I’m saying if a client of mine can avoid that and the risks that go with it, it’s definitely better for all involved.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            I know AVFM well

            Oh another spoiled white girl, telling lies. I hope you did not ruin Dad’s new AUDI with your spittle as you banged away on your i-pad.

          • expect_resistance

            Your spot on the abusive sexist MRA narrative. You’re making the authors point.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Just an observation that you can not refute.

          • expect_resistance

            Really, more cow cookies. You should stop while your ahead.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            B.M.W maybe?

          • A. T.

            *snicker* All white girls have AUDI’s and i-pad’s apparently.

          • Shan

            I have never been the recipient of those privileges so, naturally, I’m going to blame the Civil Rights movement.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            So when your son is accused of a rape he did not commit you and your feminazii will help him out, right?

          • lady_black

            My sons are not accused of rape, because they don’t rape.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “because they don’t rape”

            That is exactly what the mother of a rapist would say.

            Classic victim blaming /s

          • lady_black

            NOW you have been flagged. And I dare you to say something like that to my sons.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            You know what the “/s” is, right?

          • BelligerentBruncher

            The /s stands for sarcasm.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            You need to teach your sons to stop raping.

          • Damian

            See now that’s a bit of a problem with you.

            All mothers insist their sons don’t rape — and will go to bat protecting them.

            I wouldn’t want to be a rape victim of one of your sons. Because, regardless of your rape activism in the public scene, you have no doubt spoken to people in the criminal justice system, and told them all about how you are being such a good soldier and repeating all of the ideology they want repeated, so if any case ever comes up involving your sons, we all know, the victim won’t be treated well.

            After all, the criminal justice system is an industry, and the feminism it uses today is that of Catharine MacKinnon whose father sat on the federal sentencing commission, and it’s obvious her feminism which was worked out in conjunction with her father was designed to increase racial disparities in sentencing, so mass incarceration could happen. (Otherwise it wouldn’t be politically popular if it locked up too many whites).

            They are a huge money making industry and they care about the bottom line. If you help them make more money, that’s more important to them than justice for rape victims.

  • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

    Stop deleting people’s comments.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    An inclusive gender justice movement is already a part of the feminist sphere

    Mwhahahah.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    Yale, eh, sounds like I need to do a poster and sticker run…

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    The next time some barren white women comes up to me and spits out “where have all the good men gone?” I will say radfem’s like this clown scared them off.

    • A. T.

      I take it you’ve never read AVFM? I’m happy to quote articles! :) Do you believe women have the emotional development of a 4 year child or chimpanzee? Is nagging an acceptable reason to get physical with a woman? Has feminism ruined your ability to emphasize with ‘real’ rape victims? – Direct quote of John the Other, as seen in his videos! Are women the origin of Evil? (Stefan Molyneux, The Matriarchal Origins of Evil.)

      I can even get you article links if you need more context. I know AVFM very well. Let’s play. :)

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        I’m happy to quote articles!

        Well hurry up then, screenshots and links please.

        Generally you will find people will head to AVFM and make up their own minds, the scares the crap out of you and your type of thug.

        • A. T.

          I’ve included the name of the Stefan Molyneux video. You can youtube that yourself.

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/ : Chimpanzee comment.

          princessecupcake.tumblr.com : Start at the bottom. I’ve collected articles by date and have links, screenshots and notes as to content. TW. The tumblr has graphic material from AVFM.

          I don’t want to look up John The Other at work, but I will tonight. Go wild.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Taking things out of context how feminist, how juvenile, how dumb, and predictable to think people can’t see through it.

            A.T clowns like you are a liability to the feminist movement.

            Bye!

          • A. T.

            What, you can’t justify it, so you’re running off? Cute. :)

            You are quite the bold defender of men’s rights.

          • lady_black

            Ad hominem attacks are the refuge of a scoundrel.

    • goatini

      //barren white women//

      Yes, we know you consider the female’s primary function to be “container”.

  • A. T.

    Blah, blah, macho crap, blah, blah. Shoo.

    • lady_black

      Flag it. That is unacceptable.

      • expect_resistance

        Completely unacceptable!!!!!!

  • BelligerentBruncher

    You’re not helping with comments like this. Keep it somewhat civil. Please.

  • expect_resistance

    Paul Elam sounds like an abuser just like Elliot Rodger when he said, “If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you.” Sounds like what an abuser says to his ex, “If I can’t have you no one can.” MRA = misogyny.

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      Elliot Rodger said that – not Paul Elam. All you’ve done in your little par is this:

      Eliot Rodger wah wah wah wah wah therefore Paul Elam.

      Do you people even know the basics of argument? Actually – don’t bother answering that.

      • expect_resistance

        I’m saying there is a certain pattern in the action and language of abusers. Paul may not be a killer but he sounds like an abuser.

        • colleen2

          all of these men are abusers. they fight for the right to abuse women emotionally, physically, spiritually and sexually, That’s what their ‘movement’ is all about.
          I expect that most of them do not prefer adult consenting females as sexual partners, mind you. They tend more towards the Rush Limbaugh school of conservative malehood .

          • McLargehuge510

            Of course it is.

            Because requesting equal treatment under the law in domestic violence abuses against men, fairness in family court to avoid having to have half or all of a man’s assets and his children absconded by default to a woman, combating the social demonization of fatherhood, addressing unequal education standards for boys and male drop outs at all levels, addressing the painfully high amount of male homelessness and suicide, disbanding hateful biases against men involved in false allegations of rape which destroy their lives, informing society that…yes men and boys are in fact victims of rape and sexual assault, that women are just as capable of physical harm and abuse as any man, and demanding equal shelters and abuse victim housing available for male victims of assault…

            Yes…clearly these are not righteous causes and obviously all about getting a constitutional right passed to abuse the womens. And those are just SOME of the issues the movement attempts to address. To think if you heard more, you would have to equate them with genocidal murderers too!

          • Shan

            Of course those things should be addressed. But the fact that they’re happening is not the fault of feminism or the existence of women.

          • McLargehuge510

            Does that mean you are saying Feminsim is blameless in this? I would very much disagree, and if you look at some of the presentations at the conference, you may also start to question that yourself. Even so, this conference is hoping to start a dialog on those issues you agree need to be addressed.

            The problem here is this article, like most heavy opposition, doesn’t even attempt to sympathize and shamelessly tries to conflate them with misogynist hate mongers instead of hearing their side, and looking at their evidence as to WHY they have come to the conclusions they’ve drawn.

            Finally, the very existence of women is not the issue. No one holding this conference would claim they have a problem with the existence of women, and that their existence is causing issues.

          • A. T.

            and that their existence is causing issues. <- molyneux claims we create evil.

          • McLargehuge510

            I guess you think you’re an angel an above all moral wrong eh? Believe it or not both women and men have the potential for mistakes and even great evil. And if it goes unchecked it will continue to be heavily pervasive in society…kind of like feminism.

            What Molyneux was saying is that if a society that doesn’t hold a woman as (ie half the population) accountable for her actions as men, if at all, and instead assumes men are the problem because they are the “oppressive” class, women can perpetuate a series of poor decisions throughout generations.

            Should they continue to make poor or reckless decisions unchecked, evil flourishes. See how that isn’t really the same thing as saying “women are the root of all evil?” Context is important.

          • Shan

            “Context is important.”

            Yes, and the context of “men are the problem because they are the “oppressive” class” is wrong.

          • A. T.

            Yes. Do you see the halo and wings in my avi? I also have magical powers and ride a unicorn. I sparkle in direct sunlight. Do you have any other stupid questions?

    • A. T.

      Paul Elam prefers to encourage domestic violence more than homicide.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        Screen capped.

        • A. T.

          Please do. I’m happy to provide the links, screenshots and quotes to back it up.

          http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/

          Please feel free to scroll through, starting at the bottom. If anything doesn’t work, just let me know. I will be glad to replace it.

          I’m also happy to show you how AVFM writes about male survivors in in the exact opposite way, with another article that clearly notes nagging is not an excuse for violence. Would you like to see that one as well?

        • fiona64

          Good, maybe you learned something today.

      • Mike Brentnall

        That is just a foolish thing to say about someone.

    • Mike Brentnall

      Get real.
      Read. Read what he has actually written. For yourself, without the goggles.

  • kitler

    Something tells me that this thread will probably be locked by the end of the day. AVFM members are like locusts.

    • A. T.

      Staff members have already arrived. If we’re ‘lucky’ Dean or other luminaries will show.

      • kitler

        Hey, didn’t AVFM manage to drive off Wooly Bumblebee because she didn’t kiss enough butt or something?

        • A. T.

          We Hunted The Mammoth has the details on that. I don’t know the most about it.

        • McLargehuge510

          Not kissing enough butt certainly puts a more positive spin on things. Kristina Hansen was merely co-opting AVFM as a platform for her own ideas and proved she had no care for their cause. She routinely attacked and started flame wars between prominent figures in the “manosphere” (MGTOW mainly) at a time where these groups’ ties were even more tenuous than now.

          Even more egregious, she also took advantage of a big profile story at the time involving the suicide of Earl Silverman, who spent his life attempting to build domestic violence shelters and lobby for federal funding for male victims and was demonized into poverty multiple times for it. He only owned one single shelter in Canada before he was so low, he felt the only way to spread his message was to hang himself.

          She took scores of donations to build an Earl Silverman Domestic Violence Shelter for men, which in all this time she has not done and absconded all money with no trace of it despite all demands from donators, claiming via twitter it is her right to take the money and do with it what she pleases and screw anyone who thinks differently…so yeah…not exactly an admirable person and she has no place at AVFM.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

        Your wish is granted.

        Maybe one day you’ll actually look for dialogue with people who just don’t see things your way, too. That’ll be my wish.

        • A. T.

          I don’t mind the dialogue. I mind reading insulting or degrading things. I wish you believed that. It is actually try.

          There are plenty of Christians that don’t believe in feminism, but I don’t care unless I go read horrible things they said.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I read insulting and degrading things about my gender every day in the news, on feminist sites, and on my television.

            I finally yell about it and I start to see changes. It don’t take a weatherman to see which way the wind blows.

            OK, really need to stop and let others have the final word, but I repeat again the offer of a live Hangout to discuss. You might want to take us up on this, becuase you know, we are not going to go away.

            Ever.

          • A. T.

            I want you to yell about it. I don’t even mind yelling with you. I just don’t want to read abusive crap about women either. That doesn’t fix it.

            I don’t think you’re wrong about violence toward men being minimized or used as humor, etc. Or some really degrading comments. Calling that out is good. Let’s do it!

          • fiona64

            You might want to take us up on this, becuase you know, we are not going to go away.

            Ever.

            That sounds no little bit like a threat, potentially of violent nature. Raise your hands, anyone who is surprised …

            ::looks around and sees no hands::

          • wakjob

            Do you really live in a place where “we are not going to go away” sounds like a threat of violence? That almost entirely explains the assertion in the article above, and elsewhere, that Elam and other Men’s Human Rights Advocates make violent threats. You read threat into everything.

          • Mike Brentnall

            “That sounds no little bit like a threat, potentially of violent nature.”

            C’mon. That’s an awful cheap shot. And you know it.

        • colleen2

          I have no intention of EVER seeking out the men who post here. They have always been abusive and dishonest and while some women enjoy or expect that sort of treatment, they usually vote Republican. Why not try to find women to insult and browbeat on Republican blogs?

        • Phil McCracken

          Bigots wake up sometimes Dean. The MRM contains plenty of ex feminists.

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      That’s not very civil. That’s very hostile, actually. In fact, one would imagine that such commentary violates the TOS here. I wonder if your comment will be allowed to stand – despite the fact that it’s clearly hateful. I’m betting yes.

      • A. T.

        How would you define that as hostile? There’s already staff here and two staff plus readers showed up at the refinery thread. It seems at least in part an observation of behavior. Unless you feel an animal was a more worthy comparison?

        • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

          Describing people as locusts is hostile.

          • kitler

            Oh please.

            it describes behaviour

          • A. T.

            Will concede another animal would have been more flattering.

          • P. McCoy

            Hey don’t feel bad I basically said that if men were so superior they would have pouches like kangaroos to protect their ahem, personal parts and I got deleted. It didn’t shake my tail feather so quit complaining and MAN UP!

      • kitler

        No. Its factual.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        Must be pizza time bro.

        Gezzz I can see why so many men will not date are marry MOST of these North American women.

        That’s it for me on this thread, cheers all.

        • fiona64

          Translation: Women won’t put up with John’s nonsense. Quelle surprise.

    • expect_resistance

      Yep, we’ve seen this before.

      • kitler

        Btw, a mod deleted every post I have ever made on this site yesterday. Must have confused me with Defensor Vitae.

        • expect_resistance

          I noticed that. What’s up with that?

          • kitler

            No idea. But feel free to lodge a complaint with management.

        • lady_black

          I don’t understand why that happened. But I’m sorry. Maybe it was just comments in reply to Defensor Vitae. It looks like he got swept away.

          • kitler

            I have bad luck, because this is the second time this has happened to me. Last time I was mistakenly banned by Brady because i called someone who was hawking a product a ‘twit’. That comment was flagged, and instead of checking my history, Brady auto-banned me.

            I bet something similar happened this time.

        • redlemon

          I had one of my posts deleted from this thread (I think. Or else it’s a Disqus hiccup). I think I used too many naughty words.

          • kitler

            I messaged them on FB, as did Jennifer Starr, but no response yet.

            The problem is, the majority of my posts = valuable citations and links,and I would hate to see them gone for good.

          • redlemon

            Yeah, that would tick me off. Mine was nothing more then some snark, so I just brushed it off, but I did think it was odd.

          • kitler

            Well I finally got an email response, it appears as if my comments have been restored.

            The mod said that they have a program that deletes offensive words…

            Perhaps there is a threshold, however, because ‘f wit’ and ‘dumb f’ are used quite frequently around these parts:P

          • redlemon

            I used the word a**hole a lot, plus I quoted it from the article. Oh well, at least it was a short snark and not a long, thought out response. It seems like there are enough other problems on this article to think about now.

    • fiona64

      They’re more like bubonic plague; locusts actually have a purpose.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    Watching this is pretty comical. I have seen a hundred hit pieces on the MHRM and they are all the same. Quote mining, no interview of the people you are attacking, outlandish claims like Elliot Roger being somehow connected to what we do.

    Works well for us. We have grown exponentially from these articles. Why? Because people come to the site to see all the kitten eating misogynists and find out they have been lied to.

    Because the Reality Check bounced.

    You could save yourself a lot of angst by simply accepting that a growing number of men and women, straight and gay, black and white, religious and non religious, crossing all cultural and international boundaries are engaging in a dialog about sex and power that is not controlled by feminist ideologues.

    But then again. Keep on doing what you are doing. We love the recruitment efforts on our behalf.

    Cheers.

    • A. T.

      Does this mean there’s hope to avoid the male holocaust AVFM warned me about? Inquiring minds want to know.

    • kitler

      Even Pitters think that AVFM is a failure at public relations. You sound no better than the extremist feminists who want to castrate all men.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

        Counter-culture movements don’t rely on PR and never have. Study the Romantics, the Bohemians, Beatniks, Hippies, etc. None of them gave a hoot about PR and that is precisely why they grew into movements that affected the culture at large.

        This is not a dialog with the culture so much as a movement away from it.

        • kitler

          Yeah well, none of the above ever sounded like hate groups.

          Perhaps you meant to compare your brand of counter culture to the KKK?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Again, learn your history. Or at least learn something. All those groups were at one point reviled, hated, demonized.

            And like us, they provoked cultural wrath by attacking sacred cows.

            Eventually all of those movements had arguably positive influence on the culture at large.

            Same thing will happen here. In fact, you are watching it unfold right now. You just don’t know it.

          • kitler

            They were not hate groups.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            They were to many people. Hippies were accused of hating America. All those groups were subjected to very similar and just as outlandish smears as you are making now. Go read up on them. Again. Learning something.

            Just so you know, that fueled their growth, just the opposite of the intended effect.

            You should note that feminism is no longer a movement. It is the establishment. Feminism is “the man.” and the man always eventually comes under scrutiny and rejection for its corruption and excesses.

            You can be angry about it all you want, but it does not make it less true.

          • kitler

            Were hippies pro rape and pro beat women up too?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            No more than we are.

          • kitler

            Then why all of the pro rape articles?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You grossly misunderstood the context of those articles, but clearly proved the intended purpose of them. Nobody at AVFM wants anyone raped. Rape is a horrific act of violence while false rape allegations are tolerated with impunity that is destroying a lot of men and boys. I would bet more, than actual rape cases of which there are more male than female victims.

          • goatini

            Statistically, the percentage of false reports of rape are consistent with the percentages of false reports of other crimes. Additionally, this does not take into account the disproportionately large percentage of rapes that are never reported.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do have a clue what a false rape allegations brings a man? No you don’t. Nor do you know what an actual rape is. Do you?

            Look at what a rape applogist professor Adele Mercier teaches at Queen’s University.

            http://queensjournal.ca/story/2014-04-08/news/prof-accused/

          • kitler

            Do have a clue what a false rape allegations brings a man?

            Yes, it’s horrible, and anyone who is egalitarian opposes it. Many of the women here have husbands, and boys, and they care deeply for the wellbeing of the men in their life.

            However, AVFM encourages that women be raped and men lie about it. And that every real rape victim be treated as a criminal. That’s childish and messed up.

          • goatini

            Statistically, the percentage of false reports of rape are consistent with the percentages of false reports of other crimes. FACT.

          • fiona64

            Nor do you know what an actual rape is

            As a survivor of rape, I cordially invite you to go fuck yourself.

          • kitler

            Those articles failed spectacularly, lost AVFM the moral high ground, and make a laughing stock of the MRM.

            There are certain aspects of the MRM that I, and many feminists, can get behind. You asshats don’t help out the cause by writing inflammatory bullshit.

          • fiona64

            false rape allegations

            Let’s just look at the incidence thereof, shall we, and bring some facts into the discussion: http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

            Two percent of reported rapes were determined to be false accusations. Two out of 100. That is not exactly an epidemic. This is not to say that false accusations are anything but bad … but to behave as though there is some massive movement to falsely accuse men of rape is pretty asinine.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Please continue. Irrational attacks, as I said, draw attention to what we do. Then people can come to the site and see articles by people that founded the battered women’s shelter movement, former board members of NOW, and a diverse range of intelligent people that are nuanced enough to understand the difference between provocative satire and violence advocacy.

            If you have the research skills, go back through AVFMs history and track its growth. It went from a one man blog to a full blown publication with 10 times the readership of this place and more than most any feminist website out there.

            Why? Because a fair number of irrational ideologues fixate on a handful of intentionally provocative pieces of satire just can’t stop talking about us.

            That leads a lot of rational people to be exposed to the incredible roster of academicians, advocates, historians and gender experts
            who provide them a really fresh perspective.

            So many are finding it much more appealing than the establishment pablum being served up to TV zombies and other non thinkers.

            I really, really love what I do. And I love you for helping. :)

          • lady_black

            People who read you in order to mock you are legion.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Truth. I’m one of them. Have been reading this crap (and the PUA crap, and the Christian-Right specific breed of MRA crap, and the MRA crap written by women) for years now. Amusing/horrifying to watch it get so much attention post-Rodger.

          • kitler

            Your “satire” is why you will never be taken seriously.

          • A. T.

            It isn’t satire when you keep doing it. He did it before the Jezebel article.

          • Mostafa

            If by “before” you mean ” three years after.”

          • A. T.

            No, I mean months before, actually.

          • Mostafa

            Well then, you’re either wrong or flat out lying.

          • A. T.

            Try again.

          • Mostafa

            Explain to me how he was able to reference and link to an article that didn’t exist until months later.

            I also find interesting you’re more upset by an article where the author says in the article that he’s not serious than by Jezebel’s article where staff and commenters brag about perpetrating IPV and cheer each other on.

          • A. T.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/how-to-tell-if-he-hates-your-fucking-guts/

            April 3, 2010 vs. October 2010 for the original Jezebel article: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-industry/if-you-see-jezebel-in-the-road-run-the-bitch-down/

            This is not the original article, but the internet never forgets and there are screenshots.

            This is what I’ve referred to, no, I’m not lying.

            After learning that article and other behavior by Jezebel, I boycott it. I don’t follow them on twitter, link to their work or read their articles. I express my disapproval by not supporting them in anyway. You just never happened to ask my opinion on them.

            I just don’t want AVFM supporting DV either.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Actually, my satire is why you will never take me seriously, and that is fine with me. But if you don’t think a rapidly growing number of people are taking the men’s movement (and AVFM) seriously, you need to catch up on current events.

            I never hoped to appeal to everyone. In fact, a movement that appeals to the majority has never happened because things that appeal to the majority don’t need a movement to begin with.

            Capiche? .

            Don’t mean to be personally insulting here, but you don’t appear particularly informed, sociologically speaking.

            But you give good sound bites, which as I said, is helping us a great deal, so thanks.

          • kitler

            AVFM is a joke, even amongst those who oppose extreme feminism.

          • fiona64

            But if you don’t think a rapidly growing number of people are taking the men’s movement (and AVFM) seriously,.

            Oooh, a bunch of angry white dudes who are pissed that a) they might be losing a tiny bit of their hegemony, b) intelligent women won’t give them the time of day and, c) that there’s a black man in the White House. I’m impressed by your “movement” all right.

          • wakjob

            Perhaps a movement for maintaining male hegemony will spring up if male hegemony ever comes into the world as a real thing that really exists. Stranger things have happened. The Men’s Human Rights Movement is not a white phenomenon. It includes among its best and brightest thinkers several highly intelligent women. And while it may take issue with some of the parroting of bunk statistics the current president seems to enjoy doing, it has no issue with his race. You simply don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • A. T.

            No, hate is very much the mark of a great civil rights movement. All the best ones called women c***s, whores, bitches and more. They also Nazi and Holocaust references often. It’s how you know it’s ‘real’.

            Which is sad, because there’s many real issues that do need addressing and advocacy. You won’t get those resources from their website either.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “This is not a dialog with the culture so much as a movement away from it.”
          You’re welcome to get as farrrrrrrrrrrrrrr away from the culture as you’d like. Please, do get as far away from me as possible.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            That’s the goal! At least you understand.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes! Go away! Go far, far away! Why aren’t you MGTOWing all the way out of women’s lives? Out of political issues that involve women? Out of societies of which women are a part? Out of economies of which women are a part? Just go! We don’t want you here!

            Do yourselves, and all of us, a favor by never interacting with women again!

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Sounds like you are saying I should get on a boat and “go back to Africa” It is the same mentality.

            I think the really sad thing for feminist ideologues is that this is the end of an age for them. I give them all credit. They intelligently manipulated their way into pretty much total control of public discourse for 50 years. That is impressive.

            But it bred complacency, hubris and sloppiness, spawning a counter-movement that is not going away.

            I could personally jump off a cliff right now, and I am sure that would please you, but the fact that rejection of feminist ideology is growing would not even be impacted by it.

            So sorry.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Sounds like you are saying I should get on a boat and “go back to Africa” It is the same mentality.”

            No. It doesn’t sound like that at all to any reasonable person. Ignoring the untruth of your implied assumption that men are treated in this society the way that Blacks were treated by whites back in the Jim Crow era (J/K, we’re still racist), the analogy is thus:

            You and your followers want to “go your own way.” You bought your ticket, got on the boat, and I waved bye from the dock and said “bon voyage!”

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Well, if you waved bye bye it is kind of silly to be talking to me, isn’t it?

          • Unicorn Farm

            ??? I know you are but what am I ???
            This is the best response that one of the Leaders of the Great Men’s Human Rights* movement can come up with.
            *lol

          • Unicorn Farm

            Also, it’s a bit rich of you to complain that I’m trying to kick you out of society when you website exists SOLEY to complain about women and try encourage manboys going their own way. It’s like hating the party, bitching about hating the party, telling everyone you hate them, saying you’re going to leave, and then when people hold the door open for you, you complain that they aren’t sad to see you go.

          • lady_black

            If you SERIOUSLY believe the idea that all women are responsible for dumpster babies and abortion, by virtue of having a vagina is ever going to gain traction, you are seriously mistaken. Because if you want to blame “all women” then you’re going to have to necessarily blame “all men, too.” At any time where there is an abortion, or a newborn cast into a dumpster, there was a man on the scene somewhere. She didn’t get pregnant by herself, now did she? She may or may not have come to the conclusion that abortion was for the best on her own. That’s to say, abortion probably is for the best when you have a man who doesn’t want to be a father, and a woman who by virtue of her youth and circumstances isn’t equipped to go it alone, or just plain doesn’t want to. That’s not an occasion for blaming. Either the man who doesn’t want to be a father, OR the woman who can’t or doesn’t want to be a mother. They are BOTH to blame, and the only consideration is how best to responsibly deal with a terrible situation. Your options do NOT include forcing women to be incubators.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            How can the father of a child stop the mother of his child from killing that child? And for the record, she can do what ever she wants to her body, but the child in her womb is made up of only half her cells and the other half of the father. This is a new unique human being which can not be HER body.

            So the mother has 100% control over the life or death of a human being she is meant to protect, not murder at will with impunity.

          • kitler

            Just because a man ejaculates inside a woman’s body does not give him ownership of that body.

            He wants a kid, he can damn well have sex with a woman who will bear his child willingly.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, that male who ejaculates inside a woman’s body never has and never will own HER body, but sadly in our modern world, he also has NO say about half his body, when that ejaculation turns into a pregnancy. I have issue with that.

            I think most sex is for the pleasure thereof, not for planned responsible procreation.

          • kitler

            1) it’s not half his body

            2) she takes all the risk, he has no say

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Wrong. Take a DNA test and tell me the body in your womb is identical to your DNA. Without him, she could take no risk including getting pregnant. The male is as important as the female when procreating. Does it occur to you that you are half your father’s cells?

          • kitler

            A zygote is not ‘half the mans body’ you ignoramus.

          • Shan

            ” he also has NO say about half his body, when that ejaculation turns into a pregnancy. I have issue with that.

            Why? Would you like the legal right to tell a woman she MUST have an abortion?

          • goatini

            Let me explain it to you in simple terms: It’s like breakfast, in which the chicken is a participant, but the pig is committed.

            The pregnancy is the woman’s risk ALONE.

          • lady_black

            I love the breakfast analogy. May I borrow it?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Irrelevant. Are you saying the millions of babies murdered in the world by the choice of the mother are all due to risk factors?

            http://www.lifematterstv.org/abortioncounters.html

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh, god, the stupid, it burns. It’s entirely relevant, because he has no right to require her to undergo any medical risk.

          • lady_black

            No “babies” are “murdered” in safe, legal abortions. The unviable human tissue is removed from the uterus of an unwilling host. that is ALL that happens. Regardless, she isn’t required to undergo ANY risks. Every abortion is an act of self-defense.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Modus operandi of a selfish mind. You took risk three times. Was it worth it? And why did you take the risk?

          • fiona64

            Risk that you will never be forced to assume, sweetie. My wanted pregnancy nearly killed me 28 years ago. Should the stick ever turn blue again (which would mean my tubal ligation failed — it can, and does, happen), an abortion will be scheduled so fast that your ugly, misogynistic head will spin right off.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are such a hateful, violent and bitter woman.

          • fiona64

            What a bunch of insecure little boys you lot are …

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Clearly your sails are void of even hot air so you attack me with this.

            “an abortion will be scheduled so fast that your ugly, misogynistic head will spin right off.”

            I would call that violent at the very least.

          • fiona64

            And so fucking what? Again, not that you give a shit, my wanted pregnancy almost killed me 28 years ago. I will NOT risk my life again for a pregnancy that, given the aforementioned tubal ligation, is quite clearly NOT wanted. I suppose you believe that women should be willing to die — nay, forced to risk death — in order to gestate … which goes hand-in-hand with my earlier point that NONE of the risks attendant with pregnancy will ever affect you.

          • kitler

            Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
            altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
            nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
            heartburn and indigestion
            constipation
            weight gain
            dizziness and light-headedness
            bloating, swelling, fluid retention
            hemmorhoids
            abdominal cramps
            yeast infections
            congested, bloody nose
            acne and mild skin disorders
            skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
            mild to severe backache and strain
            increased headaches
            difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
            increased urination and incontinence
            bleeding gums
            pica
            breast pain and discharge
            swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
            difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
            inability to take regular medications
            shortness of breath
            higher blood pressure
            hair loss
            tendency to anemia
            curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
            infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
            extreme pain on delivery
            hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
            continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

            Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse in younger women)
            loose skin
            permanent weight gain or redistribution
            abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
            pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
            changes to breasts
            varicose veins
            scarring from episiotomy or c-section
            other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
            increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
            loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s
            newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy
            spousal/partner abuse
            hyperemesis gravidarum
            temporary and permanent injury to back
            severe scarring requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)
            dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
            pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)
            eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
            gestational diabetes
            placenta previa
            anemia (which can be life-threatening)
            thrombocytopenic purpura
            severe cramping
            embolism (blood clots)
            medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
            diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
            mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
            serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
            hormonal imbalance
            ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
            broken bones (ribcage, “tail bone”)
            hemorrhage and
            numerous other complications of delivery
            refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
            aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
            severe post-partum depression and psychosis
            research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors
            research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
            research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy
            cardiopulmonary arrest
            magnesium toxicity
            severe hypoxemia/acidosis
            massive embolism
            increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
            molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
            malignant arrhythmia
            circulatory collapse
            placental abruption
            obstetric fistula

            More permanent side effects:

            future infertility
            permanent disability
            death.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Tell me something I don’t know. Nobody says you must get pregnant. It’s YOUR choice, remember?

          • kitler

            You seem to think that pregnancy is all fairy farts and daisies because women were ‘created’ for it.

            I disproved that.

          • Shan

            “Nobody says you must get pregnant.”

            Who has the right to say women must STAY pregnant?

          • goatini

            Of course my comment is relevant. Mere seconds vs 9 months clearly demonstrates the ratio of contribution to risk.

            And the following three facts make your response completely irrelevant:

            1. The civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice protect access to safe, legal pregnancy termination.

            2. No babies are involved in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. Only embryos and fetuses are involved. Babies are born, are persons, are citizens, and have rights. Murder is a crime. Safe, legal pregnancy termination is not a crime.

            3. Women are not livestock.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Right a beating heart is just a clump of random cells. Women who terminate babies are simply murderers.

            So when a premature baby is born, it is just an embryo. Got it. Any woman who would chose to kill their baby is a vile wretch.

          • kitler

            *insert belly laugh*

            You really are ignorant.

            First off, cardiac cells can beat in a petri dish.

            Premature babies are not embyros,but when most abortions occur, what is removed IS a mindless embryo. It is merely an animal organism.

            And abortion is self defense. And women don’t owe anyone or anything their body.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Continue with your belly laugh, there is nothing else here.

          • kitler

            What? no rebuttal?

            Oh right, you can’t, because you are talking out of your rear end.

          • lady_black

            Who SAYS she is “meant to protect it?” YOU??? A man can stop a woman from killing a child with lethal force, if necessary. But an embryo or fetus is NOT a child. And she is not obligated to use her own body to “protect” it. You as a father cannot legally be compelled to give an organ or access to your blood to your biological child. As a mother I cannot be so compelled either. Sauce for the gander is definitely sauce for the goose, buddy boy. As to all the fetuses you will ever gestate in your OWN body, you will not hear one squeak out of me about your choice to protect them using your own body. I promise. MY BODY, you get no access to for all the fetuses in the world. DEAL with it. Men do not own female flesh. That would be slavery.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Selfish mind. Most good mothers do not talk or think the way you do. I would want NOTHING to do with YOUR body nor do I care what you do with it. So your rhetoric is moot. I was not created to have babies, women were. Facts of life. For the record, you do not own half the flesh of a baby you carry in your belly and more so for the record, you would have an empty womb without the benefit of a male cell.

          • kitler

            Biology is not destiny.

            Unborn humans do not ‘own’ women’s bodies anymore than you do for having blown your load inside a vagina.

            We override biology ALL THE TIME. Why can’t biology be overriden in the case of pregnancy, explain that?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Does it occur to you how you came to be? If biology is not destiny, what is?

            You talk like a skank. “blow your load in a vagina”

            Yes women do murder babies every day, unilaterally. It’s a sad fact.

          • kitler

            Have you EVER been do a doctor? Yes or no?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What kind of question is that? Relevance? Control freak much?

          • kitler

            You said that biology is destiny/

            So, have you EVER been to a doctor.

            yes or no?

          • expect_resistance

            You’re the one who sounds like a control freak. Get real.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Why do other people answer questions or comments not aimed at them?

          • kitler

            This is a public forum.

          • expect_resistance

            We are a community that sticks together.

          • lady_black

            Yes, biology is NOT destiny. Just like most men are capable of impregnating doesn’t mean they must or should do that. A lot of you shouldn’t bother. We override nature all the time, and have done so since abandoning hunter-gatherer lifestyles in favor of agriculture. Big deal.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Bringing this back to my original comment, women exclusively decide if a baby lives or dies. The father can not stop her, without violating the laws that bind us to them.

          • lady_black

            Women who kill babies are arrested. However, ending a pregnancy is far different, and LEGAL.

          • lady_black

            You’re calling kitler a “skank.” How do you know it’s not a man? And flagged. Big time.

          • kitler

            If biology is not destiny, what is?

            If you are wearing clothes, typing on a computer, and drive a car, and live in a house, you are not overriding biology.

            Again, have you ever been to a doctor? Illness = biology in action. If you have been to a doctor, you have DENIED the DESTINY that biology would inflict upon you.

            You talk like a skank. “blow your load in a vagina”

            Unlike you, I’m not uptight.

            Yes women do murder babies every day, unilaterally.

            Abortion is self-defense, and embryos are not babies.

          • goatini

            Women and men were “created” to be parents. Or not.

            Women are not livestock.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Neither are men.

          • kitler

            If men were ‘created’ to be inseminators, then surely all men should be forced to inseminate, whether they want to or not, since ‘biology is destiny’ according to you.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your bicycle has steered far off the path. Who said all women should be inseminated by all men??? Nobody is forcing anyone to having babies, but without doing so, we will eventually have nobody to talk to. So men and women can choose what they wish to do with their respective biological gift.

          • lady_black

            Yep. That includes abortion. Game, set, match.

          • lady_black

            “Selfish.” We are ALL “selfish” when it comes to our health, and furthermore, we have every RIGHT to be “selfish.” You have NO IDEA who you are speaking to. How dare you call me selfish? You have no clue what I went through to bring three new lives into the world. So you keep your vile, lying tongue off of me, Goober.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I had no intention of making you angry cup cake. And yes, I find you extremely selfish and bitter. No, I have no clue who you are nor does it matter. And I can speak to you an bloody way I wish.

          • lady_black

            You’re selfish about your own health, aren’t you? Admit it. Can I just walk up to you and demand that you breathe for me via your circulatory system, at the expense of your own health? I’m for damn sure you can’t do that to me. And that isn’t bitterness, that’s reality. Even if you were my child, you cannot demand the use of my body, and I do not “owe it to you.” You cannot speak to me any way you wish and you will find that out when your comments get deleted.

          • expect_resistance

            You are a vile sexist pig!

          • fiona64

            No one is selfish and bitter but you, kiddo. It’s quite apparent that you couldn’t get laid in a women’s prison with a fistful of pardons.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yup bitter. lol I don’t mind you being condescending with me. I hope it makes you feel real good inside. (as he chuckles lightly)

          • lady_black

            Oh, and by the way, women were not “created to have babies.” Merely because someone is capable of doing something, that doesn’t mean they must. Or even SHOULD.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m speechless on this one. * Head desk * This guy is a fucking sexist pig asshat for sure.

          • expect_resistance

            Ha, and you say we don’t live under a patriarchy.

          • fiona64

            I was not created to have babies, women were.

            Oh, gawd. It’s another one of the “women are EasyBake Ovens” crowd.

          • lady_black

            Yep.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You’re damn right that it’s selfish and I have every right to be selfish regarding who I let use my body. Let me guess, you probably don’t think I should allow every random man use my body for sex, so why should I left a fetus use my body if I don’t want it to?

            ” I was not created to have babies, women were.”
            By that logic, we are all created to have sex, and so therefore there is no such thing as rape. That means that rape of men is ok. Do you agree with that?

          • Unicorn Farm

            “How can the father of a child stop the mother of his child from killing that child?”
            He can’t. Sorry. For all the reasons the other posters have explained to you.
            “And for the record, she can do what ever she wants to her body, but the child in her womb is made up of only half her cells and the other half of the father”
            OOOH. Never heard THAT one before. You realize you’re on a reproductive health website, don’t you?

          • lady_black

            I didn’t catch that one. Actually he is wrong. The embryo or fetus has it’s own unique cells. Only the genetic material comes from the parents.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Duh, you’re right, of course. I barely even read it, I just assumed it was the usual “the bayyybee is not her bodyyyyyy” screed.

          • fiona64

            As soon as the man can gestate a pregnancy for the woman, I’ll be happy to hear you bring up this argument again.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What a stupid comment. Ignoring the facts does not change them.

          • kitler

            Sounds like you are saying I should get on a boat and “go back to Africa” It is the same mentality.

            You love to paint yourself as a victim; it’s nothing more than an egotistical power grab. You are no different than the very people you hate – the extremists who paint themselves as victims so they can oppress men.

            We are egalitarians here.

          • wakjob

            That sounded suspiciously like an acknowledgement of the existence of extremists who paint themselves as victims so they can oppress men. Baby step taken! Hope survives!

          • kitler

            Yes. There are extreme victim social justice warriors who hate everyone. AVFM is no different from those extremists.

        • Auntie Alias

          Oh really. I recall you rubbing your hands gleefully at the thought of the MSM attending your little press conference. In the end, not one of them bought what you were selling.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Diana Boston sticks her nose into everything.

          • Auntie Alias

            You keep telling me you have no use for me yet you keep talking to me. I must be irresistible. :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            lol Not a bit. Talking at you darling.

          • Auntie Alias

            I can feel the love!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No amount of love could warm your cold heart.

          • sputnik

            No, it’s that you’re still here.

          • lady_black

            This is a public forum.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes it is.

        • A. T.

          How about you do thing but not be degrading to women? Leaves you plenty of room to advocate.

        • fiona64

          Oh, look, the MRAsshole in charge has showed up to teach us uppity wimmens the error of our ways. /snark

        • sputnik

          “This is not a dialog with the culture so much as a movement away from it.”

          Yeah, except, I’m not moving away. I’m standing my ground.

          After all, as I commented earlier, on the whole, in aggregate and in essence, feminism functions as one gigantic, indiscriminate, false accusation. ‘S what it is. And that shit’s gotta go.

          That’s what’s going away. Within what’s left of my lifetime.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

      LOL! :)

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      I’m surprised they haven’t figured that part out yet…

    • expect_resistance

      Misogynistic hate-speech fuels violence against women. That’s all AVFM is.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

    The FBI defintion of rape wasn’t an improvement at all; it marginalized almost all victims of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Sorry, but you might want to go back and try again.

    • goatini

      //female-perpetrated sexual abuse//

      40 years ago, I think that was called “Summer Of ’42″ and “getting lucky”.

      • A. T.

        o_O Hey now. This is one of the few times they have a point. It’s hard for male rape victims to get taken seriously, especially if it was a female offender.

        I don’t agree with the MRA’s on a lot, but yeah.

        • BelligerentBruncher

          Thanks for a least being a little open minded.

          I’m trying to be more open-minded myself.

          • A. T.

            You’re welcome.

        • goatini

          He was specific and said “female-perpetrated”. The vast majority of sexual abuse of males is done by other males. I don’t minimize, for example, prison rape, and don’t think the standard jokes about same being done to some miscreant by bad actors in prison are “funny” in the slightest.

          I also do not minimize sexual assault and/or exploitation of male minors by female adults – but also recognize that culturally, this was once considered “getting lucky” in the dominant patriarchal paradigm.

          • kitler

            AVFM are extremists, fighting against extreme feminists, only, in their stupidity, they have tarred EVERY single feminist on the planet as being an evil feminist who wants to castrate men. Just like the women who hate men for no good reason, AVFM hates women, because it’s about stroking their own egos.

            AVFM is the mirror image of the very people they are fighting against. They have erected a straw-feminist, and declared that anyone who isn’t full on MRM must want to castrate males en masse. It’s ridiculous.

            The rest of us are egalitarian, and just want equal rights for all. AVFM vs extreme feminists is no different from Evangelicals vs extreme muslims.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hey, I am the director of advocacy at AVFM. I can tell you, that I do not hate women, not one bit. But do tell me how feminism has benefited men and women equally? How has it, or has it, attained equality between men and women, which is actually an oxymoron.

          • kitler

            Well…

            The female vote…

            Birth control…

            Women having the right to actually OWN property..

            Women being allowed to open bank accounts IN THEIR OWN NAME

            Heck, even women being allowed to rent an apartment IN THIER OWN NAME

            Do you disagree with any of the above?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            These are all things to benefit women. Where is the equality? Men have no male birth control pill, not all men could vote, not all men had the right to own property, not all men could open bank accounts or rent an apartment. Do you agree?

            And you have not stated one thing that feminism has benefited men and women equally.

          • kitler

            Where is the equality? Men have no male birth control pill, not all men
            could vote, not all men had the right to own property, not all men
            could open bank accounts or rent an apartment. Do you agree?

            Did men not have these rights in the 1960s?

            Because women could not even open a bank account or rent an apartment without a man’s signature..in the fucking 1960s!

            Men got the vote and the right to own property 100+ years before women.

            Are you telling me that women should lose the right to own property, vote and use birth control in order to achieve ‘equality’ with men?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Men did not have birth control pills ever. And no not all men had the rights you site. Not in the 60′s or any other decade or century or millennia.

            Men were always expected to work and provide for their family. Atop of having to die in wars and in 95% of work related accidents. Oh the privilege of men who have been taught to be disposable.

            Pay close attention to what I wrote and you will realize that your last paragraph is meaningless.

            Again, how has feminism bestowed equality for men and women, equally?

          • kitler

            Men had condoms for thousands of years. Women didn’t.

            Men owned women, so of course they were expected to work, as women were FORBIDDEN to work outside the home. Women were forbidden from owning property. Women WERE property.

            Again, how has feminism bestowed equality for men and women, equally?

            Female right to vote.
            Own property
            Open a bank account

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What does the price of tea in China have to with what is going on TODAY! Why are you attempting to hold me or my sons accountable for what happened over the past 20,000 years? Typical whimsical feminist drivel. I expect to be treated respectfully and with dignity.

          • kitler

            Well, you are the one who claimed that white men singlehandedly built civilization while women were useless twits for the past 30,000 years

          • fiona64

            I expect to be treated respectfully and with dignity.

            So do women … but you aren’t willing to afford us the same courtesy that you demand. Quelle surprise.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            These are benefits for women. What are the benefits for men? Equal shared parenting? No. So you help with something that feminism has benefited men?

          • kitler

            So the vote never ever benefitted men?

          • wakjob

            The oldest documented reference to the existence of the condom is a little over 500 years old. It was invented as a defense against syphilis in the 1490′s.
            It is as accurate to say men owned women as it is to say women owned men. Their obligations to one another were clear and binding.
            Women have worked “outside the home” and owned property um, forever. This olde tyme patriarchal fairyland of yore never existed.

          • kitler

            If women have been permitted to own property since forever then explain why girls could not inherit goods from their parents, or patent an invention under their own name?

            Why were the above privileges only afforded to men?

          • lady_black

            Female birth control pills do not only benefit females. A male pill is a tough prospect. That’s due to the difference in the way males and females produce and release gametes.

          • crydiego

            No person, man or woman should be forced to be a parent if they don’t want be.

          • Shan

            Good grief. If you don’t like the idea of men always being expected to work and provide for their families THAT IS THE FAULT OF PATRIARCHY. Not feminism.

            FFS.

            And, yes, men ARE disposable under patriarchy. Those kind are only useful as ATMs and lawnmower operators and light bulb changers for the kind of women who need them.

            If you want to share a life with a woman as an equal partner, explore feminism. We feminists can be our own ATMs, hire gardners and change our own light bulbs. Leaving lots of spare time for more interesting pursuits.

          • lady_black

            Not all women can vote, own property, open bank accounts, or rent an apartment, either… cupcake. Most of those things require a good credit rating (or at least not a bad one). Back under coverture laws, women’s credit ratings didn’t even EXIST for married women. Married women were treated differently than unmarried women, and kitler should have specified that. My divorced grandmother could do all those financial things, because (shocked face!) she wasn’t married. Married men weren’t treated differently than single men, though. Explain that.

          • kitler

            Gloria Steinem explained that in the 1960s, she moved to NY and tried to open a bank account and rent an apartment, and everyone wanted a male signature, because women could not be ‘trusted’.

          • lady_black

            Maybe that’s what they wanted. But it wasn’t the law. My grandmother owned a business and built a home, and always had a car. OF COURSE she didn’t pay cash for them all. And that was well before the 1960s.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Come down to current reality. The benefits women possess today, men never, ever had, buttercup.

          • kitler

            Men NEVER had the right to vote?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Try google.

          • kitler

            yes, NEVER had the right to vote = still don’t have the right to vote

            as in, the right to vote has NEVER been granted to men

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What on earth are you trying to say? You are talking about a time of 100 or more years ago. It’s 2014 today. What are you complaining about?

          • kitler

            You told me that the female vote is not equality, because men have NEVER HAD THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

            In other words, you implied that the female vote oppresses men, who can’t vote, and have never been able to vote.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No that is not what I said or implied.

          • kitler

            Come down to current reality. The benefits women possess today, men never, ever had, buttercup.

            Men never had the right to vote, own property, or own a bank account.

            That’s what you said. That’s what the conversation was about.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Obviously, you are incapable of paying attention to what I write. I must prepare dinner as my wife refuses to cook for me.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Pay attention and if you can’t stop conversing by putting words in my moth. This is what I said. Pay close attention to the words , “not all men”

            “Men have no male birth control pill, not all men could vote, not all men had the right to own property, not all men could open bank accounts or rent an apartment. Do you agree?”

          • kitler

            You wrote:

            “”The benefits women possess today, men never, ever had, buttercup.””

            IE, men NEVER, and still don’t have the right to vote, to birth control, own property or have a bank account.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes that is right, but it does not say men NEVER and still don’t have the right to vote. They never had male birth control and not all men could or can own property or a bank account in the past, now and in the future.

            Although a male birth control pill is close on the horizon. No more women saying they are on the pill, only to be lying, getting pregnant and trapping men.

          • lady_black

            Oh well. If a woman lies about being on the pill, who is she really harming? Does that stop you from using a condom? Look, I don’t like liars. But I like people who falsely blame others even less. Because they are both liars, and slanderers. Here’s an idea. Stop sleeping with women you can’t trust. Or at least use a condom. Stop your pitiful whining, ffs.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Frankly, the more I listen to you the more I realize it is you who is whining.

          • lady_black

            Factually WRONG. Women have not yet had the right to vote for a hundred years. What century do you believe that happened in? It was the twentieth century.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you think the world revolves around the USA or Canada? Aboriginal women make all the decisions and have been doing so long before the white man arrived to pillage them. So it was 94 years ago. Does that make you happy?

          • lady_black

            That would be… NONE.

          • fiona64

            Men of color had the vote long before women did, and could own property in their own names, etc. Why is there no male BCP? Good question. Otherwise, you and the rest of the He-man Woman-Haters Club are all wet.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You sound like an androphobe and a vexatious misandrist.

          • kitler

            ad hominem fallacy

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Got it! But calling me a woman hater, by 50 year old Fiona is acceptable rhetoric.

          • kitler

            Saying that women were created to gestate is pretty hateful.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you out of your mind? Who else can gestate other than women? And why on earth would being able to bear children be a hateful thought?

          • kitler

            Just because women CAN gestate does not mean they ARE mere incubators.

            Get that through your thick skull.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are beating a drum, I never selected for you to play on. Go tear your uterus out and never have a single child in your life. You are free to do what ever you want to your body.

          • kitler

            Then why do you keep saying that for women, biology is destiny, because they were ‘created for gestation’ ?

          • lady_black

            Once again Atilla, just because someone CAN do something, doesn’t mean they have to, they ought to, or they should do it. I’m sure you can put your tongue on a frozen pole, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I will be sure to keep my tongue off of you. Thanks for the heads up.

          • wakjob

            The point of life is to continue. Mammals don’t reproduce because they are bored. It is our biological imperative. We have freedom to choose not to do it, but that in no way negates the fact that it is what we came here to do. Women were created to gestate just as men were created to impregnate. (Whether your creator is an intelligent entity or a set of astronomical coincidences doesn’t even matter) And then to nurture the next generation at least to the point of self-sufficiency, and then we can die. How is any part of this miracle hateful?

          • kitler

            1) neither men nor women were “created” by anyone or anything

            2) mindless biological reproduction is no miracle

            3) women CAN gestate a pregnancy, but they are NOT incubators.

          • Shan

            You were doing really well until you hit the word “miracle” there. After that, you started sounding suspicious. Can you either start over or elaborate?

          • fiona64

            Oh, I’m sorry, sweetie. Did I fail to be impressed by you? I would think that you would be accustomed to that by now.

            I’m sorry to break it to you, Attila, but I don’t want to date you. I’m happily married to a man … and, as I’m only attracted to men, I fear that insecure little you does not qualify.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I am so crushed Fiona. What will I do now. I lost my only hope. I truly thought you would be single with your attitude. Enjoy your man and I will enjoy women who actually care about other people in a compassionate manner. Nice chatting with you.

          • wakjob

            Tell me again how it’s the MRAs who are hateful. I never get tired of hearing it.

          • Shan

            “You sound like an androphobe and a vexatious misandrist.”

            That pleases you. It’s disturbing.

          • wakjob

            Enough with the Not All Feminists Are Like That already. In order for the word feminism to have meaning, there has to be at least one tenet they all have in common, one statement on which all feminists agree. “Men as a class oppress women as a class.” This wholly imaginary state of affairs justifies all manner of discrimination against men, since after all, he has earned every stab of it. The degree to which you take your misandry is hardly relevant. If you believe in Patriarchy Hypothesis, you have some misandry in you.

          • kitler

            So what is Saudi Arabia? An egalitarian paradise?

          • Shan

            “Men as a class oppress women as a class.””

            Nope. Start with capitalism.

          • B_Rex

            Ill bite, where are these moderate feminists on the issue of female perpetrated rape?
            Do you agree that men forced to have sex with a woman against their will are not raped. The definition that the author of this article is so proud of
            helping put into place SPECIFICALLY avoids any sort of “rape by
            envelopment”. I may only have browsed through a couple hundred comments but i certainly don’t see any feminists calling Alex out on this.
            In fact most colleges across the states are working on an
            “active consent” standard, pushed for by feminists would label a good portion of female perpetrated rapes of males as a man raping a woman. The basis that it is a mans responsibility to procure consent, one who is incapacitated by alcohol cant do that.

          • kitler

            I am actually. But you guys are too busy deciding that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is out to send all men to the gas chamber.

            I am well aware of the serious issues facing the MRM.
            And I agree on a number of points. But the hyperbole from some of the MRM just alienates potential allies. I ditched FTB because some of them are just as extreme as AVFM. Nothing but tone trolling and narcissism.

          • B_Rex

            You are what exactly? A feminist who calls out others on the bullshit that is being spewed. Your profile shows 17090 comments, can you show me even one where you call out any of the feminist rape apologizing garbage i posted above? Im willing to bet no.

            When i was in university a few years back we tried to set up a support group for male sexual abuse victims and had to deal with a university “womyns” group who barred the doors wielding improvised weapons such as tire irons and axe handles. This was supported by the student union and to, my knowledge, to date not one feminist organization has called them out.
            In fact after a mens issues group was almost started on Ryerson, by two women and one man, the Canadian Federation of Students has successfully barred mens issues groups from campuses across the country. Meaning men actually are disallowed from forming support groups to talk about sexual abuse on campus. Never seen a feminist organization criticize it.

            I for one am simply sick of people who self identify as feminists saying “yea we really care about your issues”, while ignoring the people they stand shoulder to shoulder with’s attempts to destroy and silence us. Quite frankly that’s what you come off as

          • kitler

            I only debate abortion. So no. You won’t find any comments of mine regarding rape. I do post at the pit, however.

          • B_Rex

            So when you said “I am actually.” What did that actually mean. I mean its not a grammatically correct response to anything.

          • kitler

            It means that I am a true egalitarian.

          • B_Rex

            Meaning it was simply a reply that had nothing to do with my comment? followed by an accusation of paranoia?
            You dont seem to really have any reply to the fact that the author of this is both a feminist and a colossal rape apologist, that the two are actually a common pair. You have nothing to say for the people here who identify as feminists who have nothing to say on the matter that the author of this piece is celebrating her involvement in dismissing countless rape victims due to the sex of their attacker.
            I really don’t see any reason why i shouldn’t paint you with the same broad brush as every other feminist who just ignores the inconvenience of us male victims of female perpetrated assault. I mean correct me if I am wrong but you seem completely indifferent to the fact that this woman deliberately erased us from the FBI’s scope of what rape is.

          • kitler

            I have not read the article.

          • B_Rex

            Did you read my comment? Are you just here posting uninformed thoughts that pop into your head?
            In my first reply to you i stated this:
            “Do you agree that men forced to have sex with a woman against their will are not raped. The definition that the author of this article is so proud of”?
            You responded that you in fact are one. I think i interpreted this as charitably as i could.
            You have completely ignored the damage and hostility towards male victims that is spewed from feminists without a second thought. Your only counterpoint is ignorance, which i might add is completely willful.
            again, I really don’t see any reason why i shouldn’t paint you with the same broad brush as every other feminist who just ignores the inconvenience of us male victims of female perpetrated assault. I mean correct me if I am wrong but you seem completely indifferent to the fact that this woman deliberately erased us from the FBI’s scope of what rape is.

          • kitler

            Envelopement = rape.

            Women are not all saints.

            Men are victims too.

            Happy?

          • B_Rex

            Not really you are still refusing to even acknowledge that the feminist movement at large or, even the author of this who takes credit for it, have worked to put in place and is celebrating policy that erases male victims.
            You are still not the sort of feminist who would call out this sort of bullshit and would stand shoulder to shoulder with people who justify and excuse this sort of thing.
            and you still cant seem to grasp that your own personal admission that sexual abuse exists really does nothing to counteract these points.
            But you are of course the sort of “egalitarian” who only deals with one issue in relation to one gender who cannot see the irony in this so i dont think there is exactly much hope here is there.

          • kitler

            What? You expect me to be a fucking activist now?

            I do what I want online and only debate topics that interest me. Its entertainment.

            And I know the women here. They all have men in their lives. Sons. Husbands. Men they care deeply about. But your gang just wants to demonize them because they identify as feminists and don’t kiss AVFM boots.

            I discuss male victimization at the pit. I keep my forums separate.

          • B_Rex

            It it activism to acknowledge that the feminist movement at large or, even the author of
            this who takes credit for it, have worked to put in place and is
            celebrating policy that erases male victims?
            Is it activism to point out that working to remove male victims of female rapists is wrong? or would that be kissing AVFM’s boots too much for you? I mean its not like there are even other groups out there, anyone who speaks about anything that affects men must be in league with the all powerful Paul Elam.

            and pardon me for demonizing someone who LITERALLY FOUGHT TO MAKE SURE that if a woman can have sex with an unconscious man or blackmail a man into sex and have it just not count. And pardon me for thinking its wrong to criticize those who stand beside them and defend them.

          • kitler

            AVFM posters came here with their minds made up. That every woman here had to be a baby killing psycho who wants to send all men to the gas chamber.

            I am going to mock that, which is what I have been doing. There does not seem to be a huge interest in rational debate on this article. Just outrage porn.

          • B_Rex

            Well given the fact that i’m talking to a woman who has worked quite hard to defend the notion that that you can still be an egalitarian while fighting to re-define rape so that it does not count based on the sex of those involved.
            Hmm I’m wondering who may be an impediment to rational debate.

          • kitler

            Think what you want.

            Men can be victimized. Women can rape. And men’s issues certainly need to be heard. Not all women are saints, and yes, some women lie about rape.

            The above does not mean that all feminists and all women hate men and want to oppress them.

            I am not sure how I can be more clear.

          • B_Rex

            You are being perfectly clear, you are just ignoring what i am saying.
            The woman who wrote this article is proud of the fact that she successfully campaigned for a definition of rape that says WOMEN CAN NOT RAPE MEN.

            You are defending her.
            You are defending a person who says that a woman can force a man to have sex, though coercion, blackmail, drugs, violence, whatever means necessary and it is not rape.
            You have defended this,

          • kitler

            No, I have not. I never read the article, and never did comment on it.

            Ive been debating abortion on this thread, and mocking the morons who are on a witch hunt.

          • B_Rex

            yes you have:

            “And I know the women here. They all have men in their lives. Sons.
            Husbands. Men they care deeply about. But your gang just wants to
            demonize them because they identify as feminists”

            This is defending them, You have chosen to say they are good because of their label and refused to look at the awful things they do. When i told you the awful things they do you worked tirelessly to ignore it.

            and you are debating abortion? Really?
            The first comment in this thread is about the authors SUCCESSFUL work to erase female on male rape, In the chain you accused this of being a “straw feminist” . Your reasoning as far as i can tell is Feminist R good, AVFM am bad.

          • kitler

            Not all feminists are good. Some are just as irrational and hateful as AVFM. I AVOID BOTH.

            and yes, I am defending the women here, because the paranoid assholes from AVFM descended on this thread, accusing all feminists of wanting to send men to the gas chambers

          • B_Rex

            What you did, in an article wherein a woman takes pride in erasing male rape victims, under a comment wherein someone is calling her out. Chose to call this very real person who has engaged in the very real erasure of rape victims a “straw feminist”. You, deliberate or due to some selective illiteracy, chose to stand up and defend the woman who takes pride in her rape apologia, again based on willful ignorance.

            Do you realize that you are attacking a “straw MRA” with the argument that they are attacking a “straw feminist” under an article which proves what he was saying is true? Who is incapable of rational debate here?

          • kitler

            My straw feminist post had nothing to do with the article. It was levelled at the “all feminists are Nazis ” narrative being pushed by AVFM members here today.

          • B_Rex

            But it was written in response to comments that WERE about the article! you see how context comes into play?
            The thing is there were actual Nazis, and saying for example

            “Awww ol’ Adolf cant be that bad, you’re just strawmanning him” might actually look kind of stupid.
            You chose to call “straw feminist” on something that was in fact, verifiably accurate. You chose to say, again through the magic of context, that feminists are in fact not erasing female on male rape following an article wherein the author takes pride in doing just that.

          • kitler

            No. I was not.

            When I made the comment, the topic at hand was “all feminists are the evil”.

          • B_Rex

            okay, the first comment in the thread is:
            “The FBI defintion of rape wasn’t an improvement at all; it marginalized almost all victims of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Sorry, but you might want to go back and try again.”
            This was a direct response to content in the article.

            The comment you directly responded to was:
            “He was specific and said “female-perpetrated”. The vast majority of sexual abuse of males is done by other males. I don’t minimize, for example, prison rape, and don’t think the standard jokes about same being done to some miscreant by bad actors in prison are “funny” in the slightest.
            I also do not minimize sexual assault and/or exploitation of male minors by female adults – but also recognize that culturally, this was once considered “getting lucky” in the dominant
            patriarchal paradigm.”

            Neither these nor any comment in the middle even MENTIONS feminism until yours. Again Straw MRA much?

          • kitler

            I did not respond to anything. That’s disqus, organizing comments based on newness.

          • B_Rex

            No its not its a direct response to goatini. You can tell because Disqus actually puts in a little arrow so you know who you are replying to. I am aware scrolling up and reading things is difficult for you but it is seriously hard to feign ignorance of your own actions.

          • kitler

            I placed it at the very top of the page. It was not a direct response to anything.

            Disqus is malfunctioning.

          • B_Rex

            seems to be working fine for everyone but you. all the nice conversations where they should be. Have you considered that it may be you who is malfunctioning? No it must be you i mean youre just here to fight straw MRA’s, it must be the patriarchal programming of the comments machine. It couldn’t be that YOU just wanted to stick your name and boilerplate anti AVFM post in a thread started by AVFM’s news director. I mean its not like YOU would ever be known for being ignorant of content you stick your comments under.

          • kitler

            Your tinfoil hat is on a little too tight.

          • B_Rex

            Funny there is this thing people call Occam’s razor people talk about when deciding which event is more probable.
            Someone who hates AVFM and has no actual arguments other than that they say feminists are NAZI’s out to castrate all men, (and i checked their homepage none of it referenced nazi’s or castration) Tried to say something they thought was clever to someone from that page. Yknow, someone posted a dumb comment on the internet.
            OR…
            You, a valiant keyboard warrior, were made to look the fool when a simple comment you left on the internet was transported by software and placed it in a thread, skewing its meaning and making you look like an ass!
            Hmmm, which is more probable.
            Also starting out by claiming your opponents are Godwining youand then claiming that they cannot debate you is a pretty good way to show who is wearing the tinfoil hat in this situation.

          • A. T.

            They’ve referenced feminists and the nazis more than once. Once, RadFems and once ‘Could this happen again?!’

            And I’m rather horrified re: the sexual abuse survivors support groups being a problem. Unless there’s something you left out, that should not be an issue.

          • B_Rex

            Honestly, i have read the radfem stuff, i tend to agree with them that it Godwins itself. However AVFM certainly makes a distinction between the two, Karen Straughn has a video “to the nice feminists” which explains the distinction and why it still causes problems. A great example is the “nice feminist” author above who campaigned successfully to erase female on male rape. I have seen you make the argument here that calling an individual or a segment of a population something is not the same as calling the entire group that. Does this not apply to feminists?

            And just for the record, Mens groups are banned on Canadian campus, The Canadian Federation of Students has stated that any group that does not center womens voices promotes misogyny, since support for men is not about women (even though the group at Ryerson university that prompted this emergency action was started by 2 women and 1 man) it is inherently misogynistic, preemptively regardless of actual content.

          • A. T.

            It does, especially with something as diverse as feminism. I assume the same would be true of MRAs. Not all would be fans of the Spearhead, for example.

            Blah. I’ll have to look that up when it’s not bedtime.

          • kitler

            You are no better than the radfem SJWs at FTB and A+

            youre a control freak
            Its not enough that I agree with you
            I have to agree in the APPROVED, CORRECT WAY

            I ditched the SJWs because, like you, they are control freaks, and they got on my case for bad gramnar of things, and accused me of being an ableist and a misogynist. Because you know – typos = misogyny.

            You are a mirror image of the extremists you hate

          • Shan

            “Not really you are still refusing to even acknowledge that the feminist
            movement at large or, even the author of this who takes credit for it,
            have worked to put in place and is celebrating policy that erases male
            victims”

            To what end? What possible purpose could that serve ANYONE?

          • Shan

            Women are still fighting against people who say things like women who drink and dance (or wear short skirts or whatever) are “begging” to be raped, and against legislators who believe that there is such a thing as “legitimate” rape or that they women don’t need access to birth control because if they’re raped their bodies “shut that whole thing down” or they should pay for BC themselves because “why should I pay for YOUR sex life” and you still expect women to be able to spare the energy to advocate for male rape victims as well?

            Not that they don’t deserve it because NOBODY deserves to be raped EVER but…Jesus HMS Christ. Why do MRA types revile feminists so much for not supporting their issues? Those issues are all are part of the same problem!

          • B_Rex

            Why then would anyone defend someone who fights to have rape victims ignored based on the sex of those involved?
            Why do people ignore minimize and defend feminists who work to shut down support groups for male victims?
            I don’t EXPECT you to advocate for anything. I expect you to be a decent human being and let male victims have something, just a little recognition as an actual human being, but apparently that is too much to ask.
            And you know what, it would take one hell of a lot less energy to NOT campaign to erase male victims. To not fight against men and women who reach out and support male victims.
            Y’know what Men like me still fight against people who say men cannot be raped because they are always up for it. That it does not count because they were just “ambivalent about their sexual desire” That say men dont need a space to talk about these things because the whole world is mens space. For the love of god, this article is written by someone who AT A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEVEL managed to sucessfully define rape of men by women as not legitimate. You know what these people are called? Feminists! and you are one of them.

          • Shan

            “I am actually. But you guys are too busy deciding that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is out to send all men to the gas chamber.”

            THANK YOU!!

          • A. T.

            It was and is. I’ve just heard some stories of intoxicated guys being taken advantage of and even raped, for example, and am trying to be more aware of what I don’t know. However often it happens, a guy that is assaulted by a woman doesn’t exactly have support. People are likely to just go ‘Dude, you scored!!!’. They do it to teens too. >_o

            I do note that the MRM tends to gloss over guy-on-guy sexual abuse (and other things), I just feel they have a point here.

          • lady_black

            I believe that the distinction between an assault or the playing out of a fantasy is in the mind of the participants. I don’t like to see that boys are pooh-poohed when they feel they have been assaulted, by their friends (who are also males, by the way) telling them they “scored.” I distain such gaslighting no matter what the source. And dismissing the angst of a human being who is suffering is gaslighting, no matter who does it. I couldn’t see a woman telling a man or boy who was sexually assaulted that they “scored.” The people likely to be engaging in that are themselves, misogynists.

          • A. T.

            Agreed. I’d never mock someone’s trauma or grief.

            I’m not as optimistic re: all women, but agree that’s the response of unkind person.

          • Paul Johnson

            We do not gloss over it. We harp about prison rape, and constantly remind people it doesn’t matter who the perpetrator is (though it is important to dispel the myth that women never perpetrate), and take exception to every instance of, “Well those problems are created by men.

          • A. T.

            I’ve seen more of the other, but I shouldn’t I generalize. So I’m sorry for that. I’m glad to see prison rape getting some traction and attention and agreed, re: women.

            Saying the problems are caused by men isn’t going to get them fixed or helpful to a conversation. It’s also a small percentage of men, whereas the vast majority does fine.

          • Paul Johnson

            What’s your point? Doesn’t make it right. And it doesn’t matter who the perpetrators are. The victims need recognition and services.

            If a woman comes into a hospital with a .45 caliber hole in her chest, should the ER doc stop, and ask her, “Wait… was it a woman who shot you?”

    • Auntie Alias

      The inclusion of men in the definition wasn’t an improvement??

      • Paul Johnson

        Until rape includes the forced or coerced envelopment of a penis, no.

        • Auntie Alias

          Hm. Doesn’t criminalizing forced anal or oral sex benefit quite a few men or don’t gay men and prisoners count to the MRM?

          I keep hearing how AVFM isn’t homophobic (ha) and how prison rape needs to be stamped out yet it appears that only the concerns of heterosexual men who aren’t incarcerated are all that matters.

          • Paul Johnson

            Okay, I’ll budge. It may have been an improvement, but it’s not where it needs to be.

            That’s only because you don’t read our material, and only read contextectomies from second-hand sources.

          • Auntie Alias

            I read AVFM quite a bit, actually.

          • Kimski

            That’s it! I’m calling the exterminator tomorrow.

          • Auntie Alias

            Now if I’d said that, I’d be accused of death threats.

  • expect_resistance

    More examples of Paul Elam’s hate speech against women,

    http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/category/paul-elam/

    http://www.politicalresearch.org/tag/paul-elam/

    Southern poverty Law Center – misogynistic websites
    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

    A Voice for Men is on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s list:
    A Voice for Men is essentially a mouthpiece for its editor, Paul Elam, who proposes to “expose misandry [hatred of men] on all levels in our culture.” Elam tosses down the gauntlet in his mission statement: “AVfM regards feminists, manginas [a derisive term for weak men], white knights [a similar derisive term, for males who identify as feminists] and other agents of misandry as a social malignancy. We do not consider them well intentioned or honest agents for their purported goals and extend to them no more courtesy or consideration than we would clansmen [sic], skinheads, neo Nazis or other purveyors of hate.” Register-Her.com, an affiliated website that vilifies women by name who have made supposedly false rape allegations (among other crimes against masculinity), is one of Elam’s signature “anti-hate” efforts. “Why are these women not in prison?” the site asks.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

      Ah, relying on second-hand biased sources that tell you what to think and trim out what to read out of context, rather than coming straight to us and asking us our opinions. It just never gets old does it?

      • A. T.

        I’ve linked to some of your articles, would you like more? You never did really explain the socialized psychopathy piece.

      • lady_black

        I never take “We Hunted The Mammoth” as the source. He does know how to link to your nonsense (and even how to link without improving your site visit statistics!). I follow the links, just like I do here.

      • expect_resistance

        The Southern Poverty Law Center is a well respected well known organization. It’s hardly a second hand biased source.

        • Paul Johnson

          The SPLC is bought-and-paid-for :)

          • colleen2

            and who do you imagine owns the SPLC?

          • Paul Johnson

            Whoever has the money. Individual donors from radicalhub, for one.

          • A. T.

            Kathy Brennan does and/or has donated. I can unfortunately confirm this one.

          • kitler

            Is the SPLC owned by an evil feminist cabal?

          • Paul Johnson

            Was radicalhub an evil feminist cabal?

          • kitler

            Tell us what else is owned by evil feminist cabals.

            Were feminists behind 9/11?

            The Iraq War?

            The holocaust?

            hmm. the war in syria?

          • expect_resistance

            Source?

            And not true.

        • Phil McCracken

          The splc specifically stated that AVFM is NOT a hate group. I’ve accused the splc of specifically being a hate group for slandering people who stand up for mens legitimate concerns.

          • expect_resistance

            They are on the watch list for hate groups.

          • Phil McCracken

            By a hate group (SPLC), how ironic that is.

      • colleen2

        Y’all come here and express your opinions quite freely. I cannot imagine why you believe any of us would seek you out for conversation or anything else. please go away.

        • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

          No.

        • Phil McCracken

          Thanks for the invite.

        • Mike Brentnall

          Go away?
          You might miss an opportunity to learn something about other people’s points of view by engaging in direct dialogue with them speaking for themselves, rather than relying on the words and opinions of other anti MRA’ web sites.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Opportunity to learn? I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years. I’ve seen all there is to see and your bullshit speaks for itself. You think your posts are new? Interesting? Not in the slightest. As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

          • Mike Brentnall

            Touch one unknown portion on keyboard and original reply disappears.

            “Opportunity to learn?”
            Yes, by communicating in direct dialogue with others and knowing what their viewpoints are about. Sort of what is happening now, albeit intermittently.

            “I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years.”
            A credit to you. Then you would know of some of the ongoing concerns that men wish to speak about. I too am aware of women’s concern both past and present.

            “I’ve seen all there is to see…”
            Are you referring to: days old infants undergoing anesthesia free genital circumcision, the suppressing of human contact and comforting to infant and early years boys, (leading to) grooming boys for early independence, some early reading and writing comprehension difficulties, encouraging or enforcing the stifling of emotion and of its natural expression, easier and acceptable targets for physical assaults from both sexes, higher younger years suicide rates – 4 to 1 male/female ratio,…

            “… and your bullshit speaks for itself.”
            What was written just above has been observed and recorded by many skilled caring people. It’s a bit late to take it up with them if you think it is bullshit. Their work has been known of for years. I have yet to mention what occurs to men beyond the teen years in today’s culture.

            “You think your posts are new?”
            Some find the old ones difficult to grasp.

            “Interesting? Not in the slightest.”
            The honesty is appreciated. You are to be thanked for showing the readership what and how you feel about infant boys to grown elder men.

            “As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone”
            Those of a decidedly disparaging ilk are already gone and left behind. I cannot speak entirely to why many men have abandoned this demographic but perhaps it is due to being witness and subject to an obviously displayed cultural and legally enforced hostility being directed toward them.
            Billions of dollars, pounds or the respective currencies of any or all combined nations have been allotted to addressing feminist led female concerns. This hogging of plenty of the world’s resources into such concern has placed each of these same nations into generational indebtedness. Now that men’s issues has both yours and more of the world’s attention the concerns of boys and men will be further addressed to fulfil and complement what feminism is alleged to have promoted. Parity.

            “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
            This show of goodwill has been a regular occurrence for some years now so it is hardly something new. Instead, think revolving.

          • Mike Brentnall

            I had to reply to my own comment directly above this one ^ to point out that my reply to “collen2″ has disappeared or was deleted.

            Now, how are people, the readership, to ascertain for themselves what I had originally wrote and was responded to later by Unicorn Farm?

            Here is the comment by “colleen2″:
            “colleen2 Dean Esmay • 21 hours ago
            Y’all come here and express your opinions quite freely. I cannot imagine why you believe any of us would seek you out for conversation or anything else. please go away.”

            Here is what I actually wrote and how it appeared before it was deleted:
            “Mike Brentnall colleen2 • an hour ago
            Go away?
            You might miss an opportunity to learn something about other people’s points of view by engaging in direct dialogue with them speaking for themselves, rather than relying on the words and opinions of other anti ‘MRA’ web sites.”

            Here is what Unicorn Farm wrote in response to my comment directly above:

            “Unicorn Farm Mike Brentnall • 18 hours ago
            Opportunity to learn? I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years. I’ve seen all there is to see and your bullshit speaks for itself. You think your posts are new? Interesting? Not in the slightest. As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”

            I responded to Unicorn Farm with the following:

            “Mike Brentnall Unicorn Farm • 11 hours ago

            Touch one unknown portion on keyboard and original reply disappears.

            “Opportunity to learn?”
            Yes, by communicating in direct dialogue with others and knowing what their viewpoints are about. Sort of what is happening now, albeit intermittently.

            “I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years.”
            A credit to you. Then you would know of some of the ongoing concerns that men wish to speak about. I too am aware of women’s concern both past and present.

            “I’ve seen all there is to see…”
            Are you referring to: days old infants undergoing anesthesia free genital circumcision, the suppressing of human contact and comforting to infant and early years boys, (leading to) grooming boys for early independence, some early reading and writing comprehension difficulties, encouraging or enforcing the stifling of emotion and of its natural expression, easier and acceptable targets for physical assaults from both sexes, higher younger years suicide rates – 4 to 1 male/female ratio,…

            “… and your bullshit speaks for itself.”
            What was written just above has been observed and recorded by many skilled caring people. It’s a bit late to take it up with them if you think it is bullshit. Their work has been known of for years. I have yet to mention what occurs to men beyond the teen years in today’s culture.

            “You think your posts are new?”
            Some may find the older posts of others difficult to comprehend.

            “Interesting? Not in the slightest.”
            The honesty is appreciated. You are to be thanked for showing the readership what and how you feel about infant boys to grown elder men.

            “As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone”
            Those of a decidedly disparaging ilk are already gone and left behind. I cannot speak entirely to why many men have abandoned this demographic but perhaps it is due to being witness and subject to an obviously displayed cultural and legally enforced hostility being directed toward them.
            Billions of dollars, pounds or the respective currencies of any or all combined nations have been allotted to addressing feminist led female concerns. This hogging of plenty of the world’s resources into such concern has placed each of these same nations into generational indebtedness. Now that men’s issues has both yours and more of the world’s attention the concerns of boys and men will be further addressed to fulfil and complement what feminism is alleged to have promoted. Parity.

            “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
            This show of goodwill has been a regular occurrence for some years now so it is hardly something new. Instead, think revolving.”
            What exactly is going on here?

        • TPH

          Nah, we like to express out opinions and speak up about our concerns so we can see the avalanche of hate and belittlement voicing male issues brings from people like you.

          • Phil McCracken

            And then we screencap them for posterity and because our opinions are censored and deleted.
            .org gives some air of false credibility, just anther of many facepalms I guess.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

    An interesting question before I go: Many will excuse excesses in rhetoric by feminists as “necessary” to shake people up and make much needed social change.

    Is it not acceptable for others to have a history of that, or do only feminists get that? Seriously wondering.

    • A. T.

      Not when your rhetoric is ‘smack the living shit out of her’.

    • A. T.

      or ‘some women are ‘begging for it’, it being rape.

    • A. T.

      Or! “The real reason men and women cant be friends is that women lack moral agency.

      Moral agency is a person’s ability to make moral judgments and take action that comport with morality. A moral agent is “a individual who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong.

      I’m not suggesting here that women, as a demographic, are immoral, although a surface reading of behavior might sometimes lead to that impression. Rather, they are amoral – simply lacking in a moral or an ethical compass.”

      http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

        Again, cherry-picking through years-old articles, among thousands on the site nothing like it, looking for something to be offended by.

        Still, let’s say this article, clearly marked as speculative, and clearly not including all women (just read it, it says both those things), is still excessive. I note again: rhetorical excesses of feminists are routinely viewed as having been necessary to gain attention to vitally important issues.

        Are we allowed rhetorical excesses too, or not?

        • A. T.

          So the problem is that I found it, not that someone wrote it and you printed it. Or that someone took it seriously enough to print.

          Wouldn’t that be evasion, again?

          You’re still making excuses while abusive rhetoric is okay. Do you or do you not call feminists out on how they talk about men? Where does this double standard come from?

          And no, especially not when you call out feminists FREQUENTLY for the exact same thing and expect to be taken seriously.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            OK, so if I read you right, we’re hypocrites if we indulge in feminist-style rhetorical excess. You may have a point there. Unfortunatley, years of experience in trying to get men’s issues taken seriously only to be mocked, marginalized, belittled, told the issues aren’t real, etc. made me realize that perhaps rhetorical excess was going to be necessary.

            I’m sure that won’t satisfy you, but out of curiosity, why don’t you turn just as much energy into condemning rhetorical excesses by feminists?

          • A. T.

            There is something to that. I’m not going to deny I’ve seen men, women and feminists be dismissive of men’s issues. I know something of the stigma around men’s mental health alone. It’s not pretty.

            It didn’t satisfy me, but it helped.

            I do at times, when there’s a prompt. I call it ‘white feminism’ as it’s known, feminists giving Muslim women helpful advice! and other such topics.

          • Martin Lloyd

            I hope I am not being presumptuous by butting in, but I’d like to throw in my experiences of some of the offensive rhetoric.

            You are offended by a lot of the stuff AVFM writes? Good. You’re supposed to.

            For instance, “Bash A Violent Bitch” describes an abused boyfriend/husband retaliating and severely hurting his attacker. The mental image disgusted me no end.

            Whereas the mental image of an abused girlfriend/wife retaliating and severely hurting her (male) attacker would probably make me cheer for her – even highlighted in the article with “You GO, boy.”

            This showed me part of my anti-male sexism. By inducing me into a state of outrage, I realised that I was more upset by the image of a man fighting back than I was by the thought of a woman attacking a man in the full knowledge that he is unwilling to hurt her: in my mind, for a man to hit back was worse than for a woman to intentionally torture someone. The offensiveness of the message used my outrage to expose my own prejudices against men.

            Then the article specifically says not to hit back (something that keeps getting missed out when commenting on it), which made me feel better about the whole article, then finishes up by pointing out that fighting back is what equality would look like… and I didn’t like it. This said a lot about my perceptions. Equal treatment appeared extremely misogynistic to me.

            Unfortunately, a polite message telling people they have a double-standard can be intellectually accepted and then ignored. Actually experiencing the outrage taught me to take my own anti-male sexism seriously.

            I hear messages about men every day, and it is only when I hear the same message said about women do I realise how offensive that message is. Removing the mental filters is always going to be a challenging and provocative experience.

            Anyway, I hope at least somebody finds that helpful. Thanks for listening.

          • A. T.

            First off, thank you for being polite! I appreciate it.

            Thank you for offering the first reasonable explanation beyond ‘satire’. There’s too much for me to think that’s AVFM’s only problem, the Jezebel article and how people respond to that and others? Yeah. People don’t take it seriously, not nearly enough of the time.

            Heh. I’ve had a male victim of DV tell me men weren’t real victims. The cultural bias and mess around it is.. significant.

            I don’t mind listening. We don’t agree on AVFM, necessarily, but we agree on a lot of the problems and that the way people talk about and treat men isn’t okay, so hey.

          • Martin Lloyd

            You’re welcome. Thank you for reading with an open mind.

          • kitler

            ‘rhetorical excess’ just makes you a laughing stock

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your observation is flawed.

          • kitler

            Then why do pitters mock you?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            OK, tell you what, I’ll let you have the last word, but the offer of a public Hangout discussion stands. Olive branch is there, all you have to do is reach for it.

          • A. T.

            I do appreciate it, thank you. I will let you know if I change my mind.

        • A. T.

          The article says ‘western women’ and ‘majority of’.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            So, without getting into anymore specific details of interpretation of this old article, I ask again: are we allowed rhetorical excesses like feminists, or are we not?

            Are we allowed rhetorical excesses like feminists are, or are we not?

            One more time: are we allowed rhetorical excesses like feminists are, or are we not?

          • A. T.

            No. Not this sort and not when you protest it from feminists.

            I mean, you can do it. It’s just hypocritical, especially when you call it misandry. It’s wrong or it’s not. It’s not right *just* for AVFM.

            I also believe degrading men and women is wrong, regardless of the source.

        • lady_black

          NO. You are not. The history is plainly this. “Excess” has been on the side of men for millennia. The fact that you’re buttsore about this no longer being so does not excuse calls for domestic violence and the blaming of women for all the world’s ills. Not like you haven’t blamed women all along, while hogging all the power for yourselves.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Science tells us domestic violence is equal between men and women. Why does our judiciary fail to recognize this scientific fact?

          • goatini

            But since that is not correct or accurate, you fail.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not exactly. Nor do you know the science the same as our judiciary. Have a peek and learn something scientific.

            http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

          • goatini

            Let’s just start with the Gelles cite. Gelles rejects this interpretation of his research. Women are self-reported to be just as likely to strike their partners as men are, but **they are not just as likely to batter their partners as men are. That is a crucial distinction.**

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Perhaps this will make it easier for you to comprehend.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWQ08GbrfPU

          • goatini

            The comprehension problem is most assuredly NOT on my side.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That is from your perspective my learned friend.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Where does Gelles reject the research of Prof. Fiebert? His research is peer reviewed at the highest level. Just who are you to question his work?

          • lady_black

            Oh, that explains why judges never grant PFAs to men… oh wait… never mind. Judges DO grant PFAs to men. The language in the PFA laws are gender neutral.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Nope.

        • fiona64

          Well, the mansplaining had to come sooner or later …

      • Shan

        What the hell?

        • A. T.

          They publish stuff like this, yes. Paul discovering his feminine side is fun. Spoiler: He’s abusive, shallow and generally awful, because women suck.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You’re wrong.

          • Auntie Alias

            He verbally abuses MRAs for pete’s sake.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You abuse males who care about the well being of men and boys.

          • lady_black

            Whining about women doesn’t equal caring about men and boys.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Who’s whining?

          • lady_black

            MRAs are. And you are. And that has never been caring, and never will be. Your whining amounts to “I’m not the boss anymore, and it’s all the fault of evil wimmins.” That’s TOO BAD.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            lol So you be the boss. Does that make you happy? Right. Men are not allowed to voice concerns about males. Otherwise known as whining by minds like yours.

            One of these great presenters addressed this very phenomenon at the AVFM Men’s Issues Conference.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/international-conference-on-mens-issues-live-stream/

          • Shan

            “So you be the boss.”

            That’s not what she said.

          • lady_black

            OMG, Thank you. That is SO not what I said.

          • Shan

            They seem to think that someone MUST be the boss, and that saying “You’re not the boss of me” necessarily has to mean you’re saying “I am the boss of you.”

          • Auntie Alias

            I save my compassion for men and boys who don’t hate women.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hypocrite.

          • A. T.

            You feel compassion for feminists?

          • A. T.

            Not nearly as much as they do complaining about feminism. Check out their activism section on their website.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I am part of the staff at AVFM. I know what my colleagues and I write at http://www.AVoiceForMen.com

          • A. T.

            Do you want me to pick a month and count up the number of articles that reference women and/or feminism vs. men and men’s issues? I’ve done it before.

            Or answer why women being less intelligent by Angry Harry is a men’s issue? Why Paul Elam finding his inner shallow female was a men’s issue?

            Why the activism page doesn’t talk about how to help boys in school or where to get info? Or to advocate re: prison rape and sentencing. Or the drug war and sentencing disparity. While trans issues aren’t mentioned, even though you supposed have trans followers? Police brutality? Yeah.

            But false rape, where you can complain about women? Definitely!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you grip the purpose of AVFM? Why don’t you come to http://www.AVoiceForMen.com and make your case on what ever piece you like. Better yet, why don’t you offer up a google hangout discussion/debate?

          • A. T.

            Coming to the comments sections would be pointless and asking to get banned. They don’t like dissent. I would be called little girl and other helpful comments. They don’t like it.

            A google hangout? o_O

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Hello Rape apologist

          • goatini

            Projection

          • Auntie Alias

            Got nothing to say about the MRAs Elam berated and/or banned for questioning what happens to their donations?

          • A. T.

            Read: Paul Elam finds his Inner Christina and get back to me.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I have read everything Paul Elam has written. What’s your actual point here?

          • A. T.

            His idea of finding his feminine side is emotional abusive, shallow and more. It paints a clear idea of how he views modern women. Which would be: badly. He’s not subtle.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No he is not. Paul is straight to the point. No guessing. I disagree with your point of view.

          • A. T.

            Please tell me how that article portrayed positive feminine attributes.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you sure that is what the author meant to articulate? According to another female here, men and women have no respective attributes. Only individuals have attributes according to that thinking, there is no feminine attribute.

          • A. T.

            I politely disagree with them, but note many women and men fall outside respective boxes and have their own mix of traits.

            Regardless, can you not answer my question? How did the article portray being female or discovering a feminine side positively?

          • lady_black

            “You’re wrong” isn’t much of an argument.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Right, I don’t argue, I debate intellectual minds.

          • A. T.

            Do you read AVFM or just imagine what it might be like?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I only imagine what it would be like if you actually read and understood AVFM material.

          • lady_black

            You do neither.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            According to your feeble mind making it meaningless as your argument.

      • lady_black

        I can assure him that 1) yes, men and women absolutely CAN be friends. Little boys in grown-up bodies and women being friends, not so much. Also, 2) he cannot simultaneously claim that women are not moral agents and accuse them of acting immorally.

      • fiona64

        But their nonsense isn’t anti-woman. Whatever …

    • Auntie Alias

      False equivalence. Feminists don’t paint men as childlike, irresponsible, depraved, immoral, and stupid.

      • Shan

        “Feminists don’t paint men as childlike, irresponsible, depraved, immoral, and stupid.”

        That would be prime-time sitcoms and most commercials. Although it does seem they’ve been getting a BIT better.

        • goatini

          If they think feminists are the ones writing and producing those sitcoms and commercials, they’re deluded.

          • Shan

            Hm. It didn’t cross my mind that anybody would assume that.

          • A. T.

            They don’t think that far ahead.

      • wakjob

        This statement becomes true when you excise the word “don’t.”

        • Auntie Alias

          Very mature argument.

  • kitler

    The True Pooka on AVFM:

    “”Men’s Rights Ironic Activism

    Putting aside for a moment that AVFM has full gone into full Conservapedia-Andrew Shlafly mode and created the “AVFM Wiki” page (facts brought to you with an bias!) ,I find it incredibly ironic that a man guilty of tax forfeiture would be complaining about the tax exempt status of other organizations.””

    https://thetruepooka.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/avfm11.jpg

    http://thetruepooka.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/mens-rights-ironic-activism/

  • Astrokid

    Great article.. works well on the echo chamber. Not so much on open platforms like Youtube, where feminism is getting killed. And not just by MRAs. thunderf00t, Amazing Atheist, and a whole lot of others LOL

    • A. T.

      Yes, all the great minds of our time. *possible sarcasm*

    • kitler

      Says the guy who believes that men are universally oppressed by women in India.

      lulz

      • lady_black

        You mean you didn’t hear about that man in India who was raped to death on a bus… err… wait, never mind.

        • kitler

          yes, astrokid has made the argument that women in India have oppressed men because they 1) get their own section on the bus 2) are not allowed to mingle with men in many situations

          Yeah, maybe, just maybe, so they won’t get raped and abused by male family members and/or strangers. But no, that’s ‘special treatment’ for the s1uts!

          • lady_black

            Not to mention, the things he’s complaining about are part and parcel of patriarchal cultures everywhere.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Patriarchy is a myth.

          • lady_black

            I see you have never read the Bible.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What about the Bible?

          • expect_resistance
          • lady_black

            What about the Bible. It’s one of the world’s most-read manuscripts devoted to patriarchal bullshit, and a lot of nuts claim to live by it. Only they don’t really live by it, or they would be in prison where they belong. They just pick and choose what suits their purpose at the moment. A common theme throughout is that women are chattel property of men. It was written millennia ago by bronze-age goat herders and still believed to be “inspired” by a lot of people who really ought to know better.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So you want to be above men? Here is my take.

            Men and women each possess highly unique powerful attributes that neither sex can top the other. When a man and a woman conjoin their respective attributes, it creates a union of strength that neither man nor woman can top alone.

          • lady_black

            Who says I want to be “above men?” This is not a zero sum game where when someone “wins”, another “loses.” You have nothing to “lose” but your privilege. That never really belonged to you in the first place. I don’t know what you mean by “respective attributes.” There really is no such thing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you kidding me to suggest men and women do not have respective attributes?

          • fiona64

            So, you’re a gender essentialist on top of everything else?

            So I can’t write my name in the snow with pee and you can’t gestate. Big whoop.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, I am just a human being. A male who has issues with the bias against men and boys who are often treated with less dignity than any animal.

          • kitler

            Coming from the guy who thinks there is a bias against him if a woman refuses to gestate the product of his sperm meeting her egg.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your are nuts.

          • kitler

            Really? Then why did you say that women are selfish murderers if they do not feel obligated to gestate the product of conception produced from your semen?

          • fiona64

            Oh, and deciding in advance not to gestate another life-threatening pregnancy means you are “violent, misandrist, and bitter.” Don’t forget that!

          • kitler

            Well I’m glad that *someone* finally divined your true motives, Fiona!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Those women who choose to murder their babies, regardless of who’s semen she accepts is a cold hearted baby murderer.

          • kitler

            Abortion is self defense.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Abortion is murder.

          • kitler

            Then back up that assertion with a logical argument. If you are even capable of rational thought

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Unilaterally presumptuous little girl.

          • kitler

            Is this your way of telling us that you are incapable of rational thought?

          • Shan

            Every sperm is sacred.

          • mark mooroolbark

            You are a very sick person. Get help as quickly as possible.

          • kitler

            Explain, in detail, using science and logic, how I am wrong.

          • P. McCoy

            Weiners are subject to being.kicked, cut off or.otherwise mutilated- ha! If men were so.superior they would have been born with pouches like kangaroos to protect their.Johnsons and family jewels.

          • sputnik

            Look, I know you’re tying to have a good knock-down drag-out, here, but, hey–

            “So I can’t write my name in the snow with pee…”

            I just HAD to try picturing the logistics on that one. :-) Took me a while to recover. :-)

          • fiona64

            I do what I can. Frankly, I *was* trying to inject a little humor into the situation at that point, since Mr. Gender Essentialist had already (in so many words) told us that women were EasyBake Ovens. Like the little oven’s job is to bake tiny cakes, a woman’s job is to make babies.

          • sputnik

            I think you’re just being a little too hard on the guy. Somebody got his dander up with pissy rhetoric. I’m not entirely immune, myself. In person, he’s a peach.

            The problem that you are ALWAYS going to have with “gender essentialism” is that, well?– a woman’s job qua a woman IS to make babies. Step out of that role, and you’re just another human being, deserving of no particular consideration denied to others. Nothing wrong with that, either. Not to put words in the guy’s mouth, but I bet he wouldn’t disagree with me.

          • fiona64

            a woman’s job qua a woman IS to make babies. Step out of that role, and you’re just another human being,

            And so what? The mere possession of a uterus does not mean that a given woman is required to breed … and that was very much what he said.

            He also told me that I was “violent, bitter and misandric” when I said that, since a wanted pregnancy almost killed me 28 years ago, a tubal ligation failure would result in an abortion as soon as I could get to a doctor. I will not put myself at that kind of risk ever again, and my husband is in complete agreement with that.

            It was, according to your friend, my duty to die in the process of gestating a clearly unwanted pregnancy (given the presence of the aforementioned tubal ligation … and yes, they do fail from time to time).

            So, I guess you’ll excuse me for agreeing to disagree about whether or not he is a “peach” in person.

          • lady_black

            No I am not kidding. There is no such thing. Only individuals.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So all individual human beings have the exact same attributes? Is that what you are saying?

          • Shan

            “So all individual human beings have the exact same attributes? Is that what you are saying?”

            No, just that none are better/worse than others, overall.

            We live in a society in order to survive. Everyone has a valuable contribution to make to it.

          • DEDC

            “Everyone has a valuable contribution to make to it…

            …so long as they have a vagina. And in that case, that contribution is simply existing! Gawd I am such a delicious little narcissist! I can turn any man pointing out material harrassment against him around just by saying I get cat-called! Do you know how oppressive having a man whistle at you is?

            HUH?”

            LOL.

          • A. T.

            You’re awfully obsessed with sex. o_o I’m a bit concerned for your mental health at this point. You do have other interests, don’t you?

          • fiona64

            Have you thought about seeking help for your issues?

          • DEDC

            What for? My ‘issues’ aren’t psychopathic. Nor are they enabled by social institutions.

            Yours are both. Quit projecting.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            In other words, everyone is the same. Then you contradict yourself, that everyone has a valuable contribution, insinuating we ARE different from one another.

          • Shan

            “In other words, everyone is the same.”

            No, not in those words at all. We are not all the same. That is not a bad thing. Assigning greater/lesser value to our differences is the problem. Our differences complement each other; that’s why we have them. So that, in all our ways, we can all contribute to the society we live in.

          • DEDC

            “You have nothing to lose but the privilege WE ascribe to you.”

            “IOW, if we want to shit on you, we will invoke your *privilege*.”

            “Plus it makes us feel oh so right. Excuse me while I give myself oral now. Gawd I am so hot!”

          • sputnik

            Now, I don’t go out of my way to read the Bible much, but I read copiously, and I recently ran across this:

            10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. 13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. 14 She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar. 15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. 17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. 18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night. 19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. 20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. 21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. 24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. 25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. 27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. 28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. 29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. 30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised. 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

            Just for re-emphasis:

            14 She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar. … 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. … 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

            As for the rest of it: when, ever, was less expected of men; and is this not a model of beneficial independence and interdependence?

            Maybe this is a woman who has earned her consideration. Or maybe, this woman is someone enjoying full benefit of some “Patriarchy”. As for the common woman AND MAN: I certainly never had it as good as this one! Where’s my goddam vinyard?

            “A system whereby all men benefit at the expense of all women… ” Quit looking for evidence of something which doesn’t/didn’t exist.

          • fiona64

            You do realize that women were chattel during Biblical times, like cows, goats and slaves?

            Or is that what you are trying to say? That we should go back to the days when women were chattel?

          • sputnik

            Some women, yes, evidently. Rather highly self-determined “chattel”, evidently, at times, as well. I even recognize that the word *chattel* is derived from the same root as *cattle*. Precisely what was meant by this term then is unknown and unknowable. We don’t precisely know how women were treated, but we can surmise that, insofar as a detriment to one sex inevitably redounds to the detriment of the other, a general mistreatment of women would have had serious repercussions for civilization in general, and yet somehow it has progressed. I sincerely doubt that women, even if considered under the rubric *chattel*, were treated precisely like cattle, goats, and/or slaves, eh?

            “… that we should go back to the days… ” I’m not saying any such thing, nor am I *trying* to say anything.

            “… for her price is far above rubies.” Invaluable, maybe? :-)

          • fiona64

            I will refer you to this site, which contains numerous scholarly links making very clear what women’s status was during Biblical times. http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm

            Part of the reason Jesus was considered so radical was that he was inclusive in his teachings. After his death, Pauline doctrine became even more misogynistic … almost antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, to be quite honest.

          • expect_resistance

            Bullshit! Most of the world lives under a patriarchal structure. There are only a handful of matriarchal cultures which have survived.

          • Phil McCracken

            There is no patriarchy nor flying spaghetti monster under your bed. Don’t be afraid, if your life sucks it’s not teh menz fault, look in the mirror.

          • lady_black

            My life is great, and that isn’t because of “teh menz” either.

          • Phil McCracken

            Modern civilization was built by men so it’s only safe to assume you live in a grass hut with no internet. Oh wait! Don’t blow me, just go away.

          • A. T.

            Yes. No women helped at all. *eyeroll* It was the male only civilization.

          • Phil McCracken

            Well, women did open their legs and give birth. After that they bitched at men until they built the modern world, so, in a way, they did have a part in it. You don’t get respect for that. Try harder.

          • kitler

            How could women have built modern civilization if they had only ever been property and could not even receive an education or own property? (Which meant female inventors could not own their own patents).

          • A. T.

            He’s ignoring the interventions and building they did or helped with anyway. He’s got his delusion crap going on. What a shining example of an MRA seeking equality.

          • Phil McCracken

            You did nothing, Ok, so Fuck off vand shut the fuck up!

          • A. T.

            Nope. I won’t, darling. :) You’re such a flirt.

          • Unicorn Farm

            So men prevented women from participating in society and building the modern world, and now are complaining and blaming women for not helping… hmmm. Doesn’t seem logical to me.

          • fiona64

            There’s the MRA position in a nutshell … So men prevented women from participating in society and building the
            modern world, and now are complaining and blaming women for not helping

          • Unicorn Farm

            A three year old could figure out the flaw in the logic. It’s incredible, really.

          • DEDC

            Yup. Every time a man went out to build a hut or do some farming, he strapped that bitch down and gave her twelve lashings with his penis.

          • A. T.

            You don’t get respect for the ability to open your mouth and spew BS. Try harder. :)

          • DEDC

            “My life is great, and that isn’t because of “teh menz” either. It’s because of teh wymyns! They all be as hawt as I am”

          • expect_resistance

            I have a great life. I have a great job with a private office with a window. I’m a homeowner with a great husband. I consider myself lucky to have such a great life. I’m not rich or well off but things are good.

          • Shan

            “There is no patriarchy nor flying spaghetti monster under your bed.”

            Don’t be afraid of acknowledging the fact that patriarchy exists. It’s not your fault that it does, and it’s not your fault that you benefit OR suffer from it just because you’re male. I’m white and I have no problem acknowledging the same things about white privilege.

            Use it for the power of good.

          • DEDC

            “Use it for the power of good. I just looked at my own ‘goodness’ in the mirror a few seconds ago (and will again in a few more seconds). I really am gorgeous! Gawd I am so righteous!”

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Because they don’t work. I would like to see what our world would be like if it were developed by women, without men.

          • Shan

            “I would like to see what our world would be like if it were developed by women, without men.”

            I wouldn’t. That would be as fucked up as a patriarchal world.

            Everyone is valuable.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Right.

          • Shan

            Glad we have something to agree on, then.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not really. Women are doing a fine job F ing up the world right now.

          • Shan

            “Women are doing a fine job F ing up the world right now”

            Since when? Currently, women hold just 1% of the world’s wealth. And that’s more than it used to be. In what universe does that equate to women having the ability to F up the world?

          • Mike Brentnall

            His reply is not referring to holding wealth, Shan.

            Although this one percent holding of wealth is debatable. For many years women have held and spent their share of someone else’s wealth. Neither party expressed major complaints about it. And each parties both got and didn’t get what they wanted.

          • kitler

            Stop being so reasonable. They can’t demonize you that way.

          • DEDC

            “Everyone is valuable. Except when we can forget them. Which we do all the time. Oh look! Another mirror!”

          • A. T.

            You’ve forgotten women already? Aw.

          • fiona64

            As Queen Latifah said on “Living Single,” a world without men might just mean no crime and a bunch of fat, happy women.

            For the most part, I concur with your assertion … but the answer to the problem is not “let’s put the angry dudes in charge of everything again.” We’ve already seen how well that works.

          • fiona64

            It always amazes me how privilege-blind are those who benefit the most from privilege … like white, cisgendered, heterosexual males, just for instance.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are a bigot. I have no more privilege than you or anyone else. Actually, as a male, I am discriminated against based on that one single element, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or an other factor.

          • fiona64

            I have no more privilege than you or anyone else. Actually, as a
            male, I am discriminated against based on that one single element,
            regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or an other factor.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            You are a riot, buddy. You seriously need to educate yourself. Here are some good places to begin:
            http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
            http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
            http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/11/30-examples-of-male-privilege/
            http://www.iub.edu/~tchsotl/part2/McIntosh%20White%20Privilege.pdfhttp://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

            My favorite link of the lot, I’ll admit, is the last one, by author John Scalzi. Here is a prime quote:

            Okay: In the role playing game known as The Real World, “Straight White Male” is the lowest difficulty setting there is.

            This means that the default behaviors for almost all the non-player characters in the game are easier on you than they would be otherwise. The default barriers for completions of quests are lower. Your leveling-up thresholds come more quickly. You automatically gain entry to some parts of the map that others have to work for. The game is easier to play, automatically, and when you need help, by default it’s easier to get.

            I would quote some of the other articles, but I think that Scalzi lays it out in terms that *anyone* could understand. I wouldn’t want to confuse you with too much academic information, after all …

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Now I understand where your skewed thinking comes from.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry, sweetie. Unlike you, I live in RealityLand. If you call reality “skewed thinking,” that explains a lot about what is wrong with you.

          • P. McCoy

            Oh yeah? How much driving while White or walking as a straight male police frisk, search , harassment and brutality have YOU experienced lately?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer
          • P. McCoy

            Unless you’re a celebrity, I don’t open links from enemies. Explain how YOU have been a victim of the above- bet you haven’t not like those victims Elliot murdered!

          • sputnik

            Open his video. I reiterate: HIS video. That’s him and his kid in the video, dig?

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            It always amazes me when bigots spout bigotry that is obvious to everybody except themselves.

          • fiona64

            Oh, sweetie. Are we mad because the big mean feminist called out your little friend?

            I’m sure you’ll feel better when you get over it.

            It is NOT intolerance to a) call out intolerance (such as you MRAs spew everywhere) nor to b) point out when someone needs to check their privilege.

            Of course, that really is the bottom line for you, isn’t it? You’re pissed at what you perceive as a loss of hegemony.

          • goatini

            Suuuuure it is.

          • Phil McCracken

            How is this a patriarchal culture?

          • lady_black

            How is WHAT a patriarchal culture? Saudi Arabia? India? The USA? I’m afraid you need to be more specific.

          • Mike Brentnall

            How is the U.S.A. a patriarchal culture?

          • Phil McCracken

            How?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            The world is rife with rape hysteria. Have a listen to how this hysteria is spread by Jaclly Friedman at Queen’ universtiy in Kingston, Ontario.

            soundcloud.com/user200496785/whats-feminism-got-to-do-with-it-jaclyn-friedman-queens-university-april-7-2014

          • kitler

            So you are asserting that women have universally oppressed men in India? And, out of curiosity, the rest of the world? Are women also the oppressors in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            The young men and women in the audience absorb this kind of destructive propaganda.

    • OldandNavy

      Eh. More of the same. First they laugh and then they fight and then they lose.

      I just hope progress towards equal recognition, respect and consideration of issues affecting both men and women can happen before everyone loses. .. and we will, all of us, if there isn’t any.

    • Phil McCracken

      It’s getting slayed by MGTOW too.

      • Phil McCracken

        Mgtow is men saying No! Without explanation. You honey’s need to get this fact.

        • A. T.

          Good. Please do. The more the merrier.

          • Shan

            I had to look MGTOW.

            I wish the ones who want to would just go get on with it.

          • DEDC

            “I wish the ones who want to would just go get on with it.”

            The ones who want to wish you would let them. Hell, you busybody phlegminists can’t even leave alone a relatively unknown convention on legitimate issues (what, because they didn’t consult you?)!

  • OldandNavy

    Anti-feminism is an anti about an ideology. Feminism is an ideology. Women are human beings….. not an ideology. Duh. MRAs, as those in the conference are in no way anti-women or somehow woman haters.

    The insistence to that idea is blatantly disingenuous.

    If they were misogynistic haters of women why would so many respected individuals such as Erin Pizzey, senator Anne Cools and Barbara Kay (who advocate and act strongly for both women’s and men’s welfare and rights) choose to speak at their conference?

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

      Feminism is an ideology. Women are human beings….. not an ideology.

      Well said.

      • A. T.

        And most feminists are women and if you’re calling women c***s, bitches and whores, there’s an issue. I don’t refer to men, even men I dislike, that way.

        • TPH

          Sure you never called a guy a creep, or A-hole, or dick?

          • A. T.

            In a one to one argument where I lost my temper? Yeah. Do I go around referring to men that way? No. Do I write articles that refer to men that way? No.

            Men deserve more respect than ‘all men are pigs’ and so do women.

          • DEDC

            If you have ever referred to a man you didn’t know that way or knew someone who did, or knew someone who knew someone who did, it is EXACTLY THE SAME as doing it yourself according to this retarded line of responses.

            You have no moral high ground here.

          • A. T.

            It is not the same as writing an article and doing it proudly and deliberately, let alone repeating myself in the article to so everyone knows all men are pigs or whatever my insult would be.

            Cool story, bro.

          • lady_black

            Oh I most definitely have called “a guy” those things. You will never hear me say that about *all* men. I’m married to the best man in the whole world, and I have sons that are really super. I have male friends. I think the world of all of them. I would never demean men by comparing them to you Peter Pan types.

          • DEDC

            Nor will you hear one of these MRAs refer to *all* women this way.

            What is your point? Other than you are fishing for things to get offended about?

          • A. T.

            I can give you quotes where it was used for all/most women, as part of Diana Davidson’s continual quest for shock value and/or demeaning women.

          • DEDC

            Even if she was totally serious and not for shock value, this point is completely irrelevant. Show me how her words have directly translated into material opppression (not felt, or ‘poor me’ oppression) against women.

            Yet this kind of thing happens to men all the time. I would never say that a man being portrayed in some TV sitcom ior commercial (although this happens often) as a bumbling idiot as the ‘oppression itself’. These are cultural attitudes which serve to corrupt actual institutions to MATERIALLY destroy men and to demonize masculinity itself. Now you can point out and say that technically men aren’t legally supposed to be ‘discriminated against’ either. Yet, these images of men and masculinity are so toxic they tend to overrule and overrun legality itself. And nobody cares. And even when they pay attention, it is just another case of “oh shit, we can’t have men’s rights discussed”.

            And what do women have? All women have to do is ‘hint’ and discrimination and everyone comes running. Or complain about what someone said to them in the street. Well, what are you going to do about it? Complain to your goddess? That is not real oppression. Grow some metaphorical balls. Jeez.

          • A. T.

            You changed your goal posts. Isn’t that odd. I answered your claim. Checkmate.

          • Joe Raypen

            But where does it come from, this resentment of women, if not real?

            I would submit to you it in fact is real; that when a young man enters college he sees all around him women’s clubs, women’s services, and an entire faculty called women’s studies. Why are you so surprised there is resentment?

          • A. T.

            You can have resentment and not be abusive. I object to abusive crap. If you want to have a reasonable or even angry, but mostly reasonable discussion about why you’re mad, how I can help or whatever? Hey. Or heck, if you just want to vent without being abusive to women every other week, go wild.

            I’m not sure that’s always it, because even women didn’t have clubs or women studies? There were men that were still resentful.

          • Shan

            Joe doesn’t seem to realize (because he probably never needed to) that colleges were set up for hundreds of years JUST FOR MEN. Women’s clubs, women’s services and women’s studies are brand spanking new because WOMEN in higher education are as well.

            FFS, this is what that the Irish-named asshat freaked out on me for pointing out before. Young man is resentful because his heretofore exclusive space is now co-occupied by OTHERS the institution was never designed to accommodate and he now feels “marginalized” because (gasp) the institution is trying to help the co-eds fit in?

            Again with the boo fucking hoo.

          • A. T.

            Well. Yes. I was trying to explain that I don’t care about venting, reasonable or silly, if it’s done without abuse. If someone is being unreasonable, but there aren’t hurting anyone? I can deal with that. It’s when it becomes abusive that it’s a problem that I care about.

            Your point is entirely valid.

            Ha. If this gentleman starts, I will whip out the child labor links. I am prepared this time! There are stronger points to the men’s rights movements than women’s only clubs, though yes, men should get clubs too if they lack them. Everyone should have a party, yay!!!

          • Shan

            “Everyone should have a party, yay!!!”

            LOL! Yes, they should.

          • Joe Raypen

            Feminism states that gender exists along a continuum…so when you sleep with your husband, you’re fucking – at least in part – Peter Pan. Your sons are also a little Peter Panny. Cheers!

        • Mike Brentnall

          You are invited to learn a little more about some of the real raw unpleasant experiences that young men encounter with members of those who hold up another half the sky. Those to whom you seem now to be defending.

          Some of the more visceral comments you’ve described above, although I cannot speak for their individual experiences, are perhaps due to young men not having a place to express them. Young aware men living within a culture where feminism (equality?) is the norm yet forbidden from speaking critically about what they see and have experienced.

          From years of personal observation I’ve noticed people of both sexes become markedly uncomfortable when a female is criticized. It is as though criticism of the female sex is verboten. Whereas, for years, pre or post feminism, I’ve observed how easy it is for males of all ages to receive varying degrees of open criticism. And most people seem to have no problem with this.

          AVFM publishes many articles relating to men’s issues and is not responsible for the words of individual commenters. The commenters alone are responsible. If that is the manner in which they choose to be known by then that is their decision. AVFM
          will ban or block those who espouse violence. I’ve seen the memos and the swift action when violent language surfaces.

          If vile comments are disturbing try to at least discover why those who express them feel as strongly as they do. Without ascribing to them a pre-determined conclusion.

          • A. T.

            Mike: I’m not sure how or where your got the impression that women escape these experiences, especially with MRAs? It is an inaccurate impression. So I focus on the behavior, rather than the group. AVFM is a target because of continued, predictable behavior.

            No. That is not an excuse for abuse, anymore than it is for a woman. And they have twitter, reddit and quite a few places where they speak very, very loudly. If you tweet on certain topics, you can even have them come find you to talk.

            Criticize is not the same as abuse. I can support or at least note a criticism is fair or have points. I probably won’t enjoy it, because I prefer to get along, but I can rightly note the purpose. With abuse? there is none of that.

            The all men are pigs comment and such? Yeah. That’s not okay for the reasons you mentioned and more. I don’t think people have the problem insulting women you think, but I’m happy to say both should go.

            Did you try to discover why RadFem posters felt as strongly as they did? I doubt it. Because you knew it was awful and wrong. You can’t reason with hate. It’s just an invitation for pain. I don’t mean your comments, I mean the ‘women are inferior and holes for me to use’ sort. There’s no point and I deserve better, honestly.

          • Mike Brentnall

            “Mike: I’m not sure how or where your got the impression that women escape these experiences, especially with MRAs?”

            Not familiar with your writing style so not quite clear on what you wrote.

            What do you mean by, “I’m not sure how or where your got the impression that women escape these experiences,…”
            Escape? What experiences? Are you referring to the experiences of the young men I wrote about or…the experiences of women?
            I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

            I wrote: “You are invited to learn a little more about some of the real raw unpleasant experiences that young men encounter with members of those who hold up another half the sky.”
            Meaning that some young men have had unpleasant experiences with young women.

            I wrote: “Some of the more visceral comments you’ve described above,although I cannot speak for their individual experiences, are perhaps due to young men not having a place to express them. Young aware men living within a culture where feminism (equality?) is the norm yet forbidden from speaking critically about what they see and have experienced.”.
            Meaning that young men have expressed themselves with emotion (visceral) resulting from perhaps not having an acceptable place to express themselves regarding their experiences with young women or with feminism.

            Some express themselves and their experiences within men’s oriented blogs where they are free to express them. This expression may not be liked but what some young men have experienced isn’t liked by them as well. Or others.

          • A. T.

            ‘ little more about some of the real raw unpleasant experiences’ – This was what I was referring to when I mentioned women have ‘these’ experiences with men/MRAs and sometimes quite often. I considered that relevant, because we went into behavior and what is (presumably) acceptable, not because we have to talk women every time we talk about men.

            I’m definitely aware that some men have had some really unpleasant experiences with women.

            I’m not going to be okay with abuse, if that’s how you define expression. I do hear you about needing room to vent and being given space.

          • Mike Brentnall

            “This was what I was referring to when I mentioned women have ‘these’ experiences with men/MRAs and sometimes quite often.”
            Thanks A.T. for your clarifying a bit more.

            I, at times, lament over what I see as an unnecessary circular drama regarding relations between the sexes. I will begin by making one point using the paragraph immediately below. Then others from that.

            At my (our) disposal are many articles and opinions about matters pertaining to current Israeli/Arabic/Palestinian relations. I find these politics overwhelming at times as not only are there so many points and counterpoints being made that can muddy the landscape but that these relations go back in time hundreds and more years. Who is right/wrong, is difficult to determine as in human relations I suppose all are to some extent.

            Comparatively, the current sexual politics landscape historically goes back a mere 100 and more so years, thus a little more easy to understand. Who started what, why, when and how is readily traceable without a major Herculean effort. How our/this culture had evolved socially and legally through custom then commonality then codification is on record. The flux of current society was spawned from years of development from rudiments. It was what it was at any given time, including, as always, things that made sense and not. This is inescapable as it is our past, regardless of revision.

            The more modern feminism organized around a number of things including universal suffrage, the franchise or the vote. Female suffrage occurred roughly 20 to 30 years after the common man was successful at attaining it. But this organized feminism evolved into keeping busy petitioning for matters pertaining to women while many the common unorganized labouring man was out earning a keep for the size of his family – those to whom he was legally responsible for. Much the same structure continued intermittently up to years of the ‘sexual revolution’. Organized and unorganized feminism took more strides into real or imagined purpose and ends during this period, while the men were still out of the house providing standards of family living . Roughly 20 years into the sexual revolution government funding was supplied to feminist led women’s concerns. No comparative organizing or funding was considered for men’s concerns. Relatively speaking, none. Massive amounts of government supplied funding for female issues has become the norm since. This funding, supplied by the way, by mostly from the paycheques of the working man of any sized or coloured collar. This led to whole governmental departments, services and campus faculties devoted to women’s or female concerns. Progress this to the point where it is commonly assumed by varying amounts of the population to grant feminist led female concerns upon many national affairs. This single-mindedness has evolved into or created a social imbalance that now influences public thought on many if not all levels – including, as a result, an ill will toward boys and men. Various academics have played their part in shaping this. As one example, you’ve heard this ? –

            “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.”
            — Mary Daly, philosopher and former professor at Boston College (women’s studies and others); “No Man’s Land”; What Is Enlightenment? (Fall/Winter 1999).

            This thinking, this obvious show of contempt and hatred has influenced others, upon others to some extent to where it is even deemed acceptable to fictionalize callous, violent and outlandishly disrespectful treatment toward men and boys on advertising, televised and motion picture dramas. Over time organized and funded feminism has had a hand in this and many more not associated with but influenced by a lop-sided accounting of relations between the sexes has perpetuated what has become outward contempt and callous indifference toward boys and men in real time as well.

            So, you tell me, who is more effected by the raw and the experiential from what I’ve written so far? Some may argue that young women exclusively are. Others, and I say rightfully, argue that young men are mostly effected by this. Some young men sensing something is wrong and out of order, are not happy, even though they cannot articulate such in a manner acceptable to custom or the sensibilities of others. The dam has leaks, it appears. Raw, brash language is apparently threatening to some but social relations resulting from 40 odd years of well funded feminist lobbying are threatening the perceptions of and the well-being of boys and men. This lop-sidedness is unprecedented in all of human history. And is about to change.

            Try not to get too distracted from the words of the inarticulate and/or hurting. There is a dearth of understanding regarding the issues of boys and men. Addressing these concerns is part of the ‘equality’ equation. And there exists a growing body of those who can and do articulate well.

            “I’m not going to be okay with abuse,…”
            Abusive is not a one-way street. What has surfaced from decades of one-sided lobbying can definitely be regarded as abuse (of authority, of latitude, of trust). The difference in this matter of abusive is one’s point of view. Either all see it or we’re back to sniping at each other in a circular drama. One leads to the other, including awareness about each other and its ensuing respect.

            “…if that’s how you define expression.”
            It’s there whether any or all like it or not. It will pass. Abusive expression can be a consequence of something else. I’ve put forth some background of that something else. We’re all effecting each other to some degree. Simply eliminating one of a dually occurring offense isn’t going to work.

            Divisions have been made but they will be reconciled.

        • Cenobite

          “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable
          political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the
          class that is oppressing them.” – Robin
          Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

          “To call a man an
          animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas

          “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a
          high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea
          Dworkin

          “Rape is nothing more
          or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all
          women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller

          “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to
          hurt men.” — Sharon Stone

          “In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is
          rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful
          consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon

          “The proportion of
          men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.”
          — Sally Miller Gearhart

          “Men who are unjustly
          accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

          “All men are rapists
          and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French

          “Probably the only
          place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison,
          except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.

          • A. T.

            Yes. Horrible comments by RadFems or anyone else should be called out. Happy to join you in that. While one or two of those are out of context, plenty are not.

            In case that is not clear enough: Men not evil, men are worthy of respect and dignity and should be treated as such. There’s no place for crap like that.

          • DEDC

            Well? As Auntie Alias Futrelle is saying in this thread: What are you doing about it?

            Calling out comments (which after all, are only words) only when they are pointed out to you, doing it in an insignificant comment thread of an insignificant and under a disingenuous article, likely in an attempt to locally disarm your opponents, doesn’t amount to diddly I am afraid. Sorry, no kudos forthcoming. Debate Esmay in public and maybe you will get a modicum of respect (depending on your behavior/performance in that forum).

          • A. T.

            I’m going to see if I can find documentation of Sally Miller Gearhart’s stuff and what it looks like it context. Then I’m going to figure out how I’m going to address the U of O.

            And I don’t want your kudos, I’d like you to get a hobby. But that’s not going to happen. So carry on. Blah, insult, blah blah.

          • dreamjoehill

            Sorry to jump in here, but I think you have a great point that hate speech is not tolerable.
            Men’s Rights is a movement that’s responding to changing gender roles. It’s a new movement, but it’s growing rapidly. Like many social movements, there is a level of anger that sparks it, but that anger must be channeled into constructive social change. Part of that involves discouraging the channeling of anger into hateful or destructive paths.
            The feminist quotes listed above are mostly quite old, and stem from the 70′s & 80′s when feminism was a newer, angrier movement that hadn’t refined it’s rhetoric.

          • Shan

            ” Like many social movements, there is a level of anger that sparks it,
            but that anger must be channeled into constructive social change.”

            That’s a good point. 25 years ago, I was reading a lot of Andrea Dworkin and was very angry (nice little vicious circle there). It didn’t take me long to realize that maintaining that level of anger was not only NOT helpful to anybody – including myself – but actually destructive.

          • A. T.

            You’re suggesting the Men’s Rights movement will also change and adapt with time? That is a fair point.

          • Shan

            God, I hope so.

          • A. T.

            Heh. I hoping. Men need the advocacy. The rates of homelessness and suicide alone are heart breaking. That’s not touching the rest of a long, long list of issues.

          • Shan

            True. Everybody in that bad a situation needs advocacy. I’ve done it myself, volunteering at a local interfaith organization.

    • fiona64

      MRAs, as those in the conference are in no way anti-women

      BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

      Thanks, I needed a laugh this afternoon.

      • Mateusz82

        Such a reasoned and well-supported refutation.

        • http://akseiya.deviantart.com Michał Lech

          Yeah, the original post surely called for one.

          • Mateusz82

            Yes, it did.

      • LikkiCurry

        Are you 12?

    • A. T.

      Except AVFM consistently publishes anti-women rhetoric. You can’t write awful crap about women and tell me it’s just feminism. I’ve read the crap. You apparently haven’t or you’re just okay with women being referred to like that.

      But you’ll turn around and cry misandry. No. No time for that crap. It’s wrong or it’s not.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        No – we don’t. That’s bullshit.

        • A. T.
          • Peadair

            You’ve read those articles in full?

          • A. T.

            I had the joy of reading them, yes.

          • Peadair

            And you believe they are “Anti-women or display hatred(fixed spelling) of women”?

          • Peadair

            You are still posting but haven’t replied to my question, could you pleases answer it, because I wouldn’t want to misunderstand your view on those articles.. Do you believe they are “Anti-women or display hatred(fixed spelling) of women”?

          • A. T.

            Yes, I believe they are anti-women. Hatred is not the proper word in retrospect, as one can be degrading and not hate something, necessarily.

          • Peadair

            I agree that none of those articles show the hatred of women.

            I would disagree with you regarding them being anti-woman. All of the articles are critical of women, and often men too. But being critical of a group does not mean you are anti that group. Being critical can help people change for the better.

            As for degrading, the truth can be degrading, as can lies. You haven’t stated if you believe that any of the content in the articles may be true, just that it is degrading. Don’t blame the messenger if the message is true.

            Here is an article I wrote for AVFM.
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/just-plain-crazy/when-is-murder-manslaughter/

            Now am I anti-woman, or am I critical of what appears to be a gross injustice? Am I degrading women, or am I just critical of a pervasive instinct in our society to infantilise women, to treat them as less capable, as less culpable than men?

            I believe in equality and justice.

            If a man had committed that crime, he would have been found guilty of murder and would have been sentence to life.

          • A. T.

            The “primal forces” that motivate women relate principally to resistance to change, narcissism and fear… for example, fear of being left on the shelf, fear of not finding a provider to provide for her, fear of novelty and fear of the unknown. David DeAngelo tells us that attraction isn’t a choice, and on this, we can only concur. The thing that excites women about dominant men does not relate to anything as calculated as guaranteeing offspring with lots of resources. That’s nonsense. While women are attracted to power and success, they are never attracted to plodding providers. And you only have to look at women’s dumb choices to realize that if we left it up to them, the next generation would be swinging from tree to tree
            _____________________________________

            If she were categorically reproved as many as three or four times, she would imagine that the whole world is against her. A man can conclude that one man with courage is his own majority and it renders him invulnerable to criticism. A woman cannot. She is too reliant upon consensus. What is more, she is naturally more risk adverse. Risk is something men are supposed to take. A small handful of reproofs are enough to make her reconsider her behavior. There is too much at stake.

            ___________________________

            By inference, the mature female human, at the end-point of her provided-for trajectory, has an atrophied brain in comparison to the male.

            _______________

            If you don’t consider that anti-women and consider it helpful criticism, I don’t think we have a lot to discuss.

          • Shan

            Quote marks! Quote marks!!!

          • A. T.

            Sorry. ._.

          • Shan

            I only meant that just so that it’s clear that it’s not YOU saying those things. For your own sake, because it’s not that I think you would. Or did. You know what I mean.

          • Kimski

            And despite realizing it is NOT misogyni, I have a C-note here saying you’re going to label it in exactly the same way, next time you hear or read something similar. Thus is the power of ideological brainwashing from infancy, combined with inherited female solipsism and narcissism.

        • A. T.

          I’m limited in selection as I’m at work- I have to go by what I had on twitter and available, but there’s some fun stuff in there.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You rob your employer by playing here all day?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You, I assume, are unemployed.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You assume wrong farmer unicorn.

          • A. T.

            I have moments of downtime between clients.

      • TPH

        Anti-feminism rhetoric, not anti woman. The two are not mutually intertwined. One’s a gender, the other is a political movement.

      • OldandNavy

        I didn’t cry misandry. Assigning people thoughts? Don’t have time for that tripe.

        What have you read on AVFM that was anti-women or displayed a hated of women? Identify the piece and I will go read it myself. I’m actually pretty ingested in your view on their writing – and the reasons you feel as you do about them.

        • A. T.

          I will apologize for assuming. I did project there, based on past experience. And I’m happy to provide to examples.

          http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/

          The tumblr (it starts at the bottom) contains links to AVFM articles. There are screenshots *and* links. If someone does not work, please tell me and I will fix it.

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/understanding-the-dumb-choices-women-make/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/why-men-are-more-intelligent-than-women/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/mounting-the-throne-of-peter/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/lessons-from-nature-brain-in-a-vat/

          Take your pick.

          • DEDC

            Hypersensitive are we? That time of the month?

          • sputnik

            Interesting. I picked the last five. I read all five, and took notes to the tune of 600 words while doing it. As I’m a relative newcomer to AVfM, they were all new to me. I found nothing anti-woman about them, though I did find come cold, hard observations about some (or most) women, and one about some men –“It is well established now that PUAs, as performing seals begging for fish, routinely work themselves into a lather…” Love it, “Codebuster”!

            Yes, there is much that is “anti-some women”, after a fashion, but mostly, it’s anti-some women’s *behavior*, and women’s behavior can change. Women are not fixed quantities; they’re human beings with the full potential of being human. Most women, in my experience and estimation, are simply lagging in this regard, not so much by nature but because they’ve been fed a load o’horse hockey by— WOMEN! Only Angry Harry’s article seemed to play it otherwise, regarding his evident belief in the fixity of relative average intelligence levels, and if I ever have the honor of meeting the fellow, I’ll smack him upside the head with a lick o’observational firewood, just for you, A. T! (It’s his psych indoc showing.)

            You may not like the observations in evidence as bases for the arguments found in these articles, but we ignore sound observation very much at our peril. Janet Bloomfield, aka Judgybitch, gets this, and here’s an article by her that really makes the point. It brought tears to my eyes, boy howdy, and here’s a link for your perusal. (Peruse: “to read closely.”)

            http://judgybitch.com/2013/05/20/harvard-phd-student-finds-a-correlation-between-race-and-iq-harvard-students-says-even-if-its-true-it-shouldnt-be-a-topic-of-research-everybody-is-wrong/

            Now that we’ve gotten that little squabble out of the way, it remains that the article at which we’re all commenting remains a piece of deliberate mendacity by an arrant fool. (Arrant: much worse than merely errant.)

            After all, on the whole, in aggregate and in essence, feminism functions as one gigantic, indiscriminate, false accusation. ‘S what it is. And that shit’s gotta go.

          • A. T.

            1) Do you could the prime drive of man to be narcissism?

            2) Do you consider women to be without conscience, essentially sociopaths as a whole? (It said majority of Western women.)

            This is short, but those two questions will help shape the longer reply you will get after work tomorrow.

          • sputnik

            No, and no, although women manifest a significantly greater degree of narcissism than men, on an individual by individual basis, in general. This leads to less “conscience”, less empathy, in practice.

            The problem arises from an unfortunate natural phenomenon, “nature” being not perfect, as if evolution had stopped happening because all was now perfect.

            Women ovulate covertly, unlike just about every other species on the planet. As I commented elsewhere, it’d be so good for us guys if y’all did the colorful estrus thing, or if *randy* were a smell, once a month, so that we could stop thinkin’ ’boutcha the rest of the time. But, given that the female o’this species may be sexually available at any time, I gotta be paying high quality attention all the damn time, or I’m going to be out-competed. This may have some survival value for the species, but — and it’s the law of unintended consequences, again — it becomes a fixation.

            Now, imagine that we’re conversing face-to-face, and as I talk to you, I’m staring at your mouth. Where’s your attention going to go? To your mouth.

            If you step out of a city building onto the sidewalk and find everybody looking in the same direction, where you gonna look, you sheeple, you. :-)

            One’s attention directs another’s attention.

            So this steady imbalance of a real intensity of attention from men to women redirects women’s attention onto themselves. Now, we’re both fixated. Wunnerful.

            *POOF* Gynocentrism.

            And, as ‘Tis better to give than to receive, the receiving end in this scenario becomes subtly degraded. It works as if a moral wrong were being continuously committed. But don’t get me wrong; in my philosophy, responsibility is 100% yours, AND SIMULTANEOUSLY 100% mine. That’s the way responsibility works.

            Men are no less responsible for these fixations than women.

            Now, you may not like this hypothesis, and I don’t, either — though mostly only because you might not like it — but I can’t find a way around it. It works to explain all the observed phenomena, it doesn’t require that I postulate into existence any heretofore unobserved phenomena to fill in any gaps, and it has predictive value.

            It explains why women have felt men to be in control, when men have felt controlled. It explains why those men who conduct their sexual relationships, even in monogamy, with a certain devil-may-care aloofness, do “better”, more or less, in general. It explains why it is so difficult for men to buck the status quo in this regard without considerable societal disapprobation.

            It predicts the narcissism, and let us neither exaggerate nor diminish, btw. It is what it is, and only to the extent that it is. But it is, without fingerpointing or belittling moral rhetoric.

            Let’s elevate it the status of theory.

            The ramifications are enormous!– but the solution is remarkably simple, if perhaps unpalatable to most women. The theory even predicts that it will be just so unpalatable.

          • A. T.

            Re: Angry Harry- Just observational firewood and no literal firewood, please.

            Re: JudgyBitch- Her light skin comments were ignorant enough I banged my head against the wall. I did appreciate the observation about the effect poverty can have on children, including lack of food. I think there was a bit more to the story than that re: his racism, but I honestly don’t care enough to look it up just now.

            A comment that calls all Western women sociopaths *is* anti-women. Even you, with your dim view of women’s behavior, noted this was not true. You also overlooked the cute article that started one of our primary drives was narcissism.

            Your world view is quite alarming to a shy introvert. o_o I don’t like it- I don’t like attention. You did note equal responsibility, so I’m still listening.

            As to whether I agree, I don’t think there’s accurate pieces. I think some men clearly focus on women and some women take that and run with it. But some men also focus entirely on themselves and their wishes and I see society organization around power and who is close to power far more than women. Poor women, I assure you, are disposable when necessary. They used to be far more disposable and still are in many places.

            Teh is from lolcats, I think.

            There are some radical feminists that had or did have undue influence. Sheila Jeffries and others hurt quite a few people. I don’t think we should pretend this has happened only with feminists, but I will certainly concede it.

            oligarchy. <— Yes! It makes me crazy when people think feminists rule, as much as being a piece of a puzzle. Influential or not, we're hardly only and there are MANY other groups.

            Ha. I think you overestimate me, as awesome as I am. My goal is to be good to the men, women and children around me and do good in my community. That I *can* do.

            Heh. It's rather upsetting to me, that you feel like you have to yell and possibly be awful to be heard. It really is. I'd better for you. And I don't care if you drop out because you want to, but I'd like it to not be an 'I *have* to thing'.

            ..I'm sorry is inadequate, but I'm not sure there are adequate words.

          • sputnik

            The straight male who is not fixated on the female is rarer than frog-fur. The sum of all this attention, in aggregate, is a powerful social force. It’s what society runs on, in a manner of speaking.

            My dim view applies to all humans, though I will admit to finding women’s behavior in a dimmer light. And yet, as I said or implied, women’s lower standard of behavior is a result of being on the receiving end of the worsening attention imbalance since the beginning of whenever.

            Poor men are the more disposable, I assure you in my turn; government programs effectively remove them from the family, supplanting them by offering money to the Mom only if he’s not around. Moms are valued. Dads?– who needs ‘em!

            And let me be quite clear: you PERSONALLY can reverse the situation within your sphere of influence. Women, acting in some large minority in concert, could revese the situation overnight. Because i am a man, I, myself, personally, can do precisely NADA on my own about this, in ANY sphere. I HAVE to ally myself and my efforts with a group that can make mucho noise, like AVfM, and it’s all about a wider social impact, not about me. Guys are s’posed to siddown and shuddup.

            And we gotta fight just to get truthful journalistic coverage. This shit jus’ ain’t even nearly real. I was there. I know.

            Sorry if it seems awful, but the truth comes unvarnished. Re. those articles: If there’s a little froth in the spilling, well, shit happens. These people in and around AVfM are some of the most insightful people I’ve encountered, and I assure you that I’m no dummy, no fawning acolyte, not lacking for discernment.

            Thus, nothing I do within the Men’s Issues arena is for myself in the slightest, unless, like, this one life is not all there is, and I have to come back as a man again. There’s an expansive take on responsibility for you.

            When it’s impossible to make time for a relationship because you’re a divorced Dad working two full-time jobs while hoping to have a moment for your kid, you’ve BEEN dropped out. But sometimes fate has a way of dropping shit on you…

            When it becomes dangerous to be a guy interested in sex… I was also once offered a classic, text-book “date-rape opportunity”, just after I was divorced. These situations always arise from complexities, so it’s a long story, but I never could quite fathom how two sentient, intelligent beings could be so oblivious as to fail to communicate to that degree. Certainly, I’d never hang out with such a person, even by accident, right? Most intelligent, literate, musically talented, fine wine drinkin’ motorcycle-ridin’ woman (my interests, precisely!) and our daughters were magically best friends. Most shit-together person I’d ever met. I’d fallen in love, and she knew what I was about, because I’d been explicit on the approach, and explicit on the back away, over several months, when she proved to be unexpectedly insane, very literally insane, and admittedly, ceaselessly promiscuous. And then there she was, puttin’ it in my face, again.

            Well, this was the most narcissistic, callously insensitive treatment I’d ever been subjected to, and I told her so, and walked away from the set-up. And I still had to see her from time to time because of the kids.

            Game over. Been over ever since. Dig: it’s not my loss — not any loss at all — if there was nothing out there worth winning in the first place. And by *nothing*, I mean to say too rare to count. Go play the lottery; it’s only a buck a ticket. It’s a mirage.

            And that’s not even the whole of it. The rest of my life, where women are concerned, has been one step ahead of some near disaster. It’s been weird. I just thank god that I don’t have to work around women. Like hanging with my daughter until recently: walking on eggshells all the time. I’m actually better off having nothing to do with her!

            As far as I’m concerned, humanity in general, and women in particular, are gonna have to step up their game in terms of understanding and ethical behavior. But it’s not going to happen unless men demand it. Something to do with our responsibility for this mess, I think.

            But how do we demand this without being *demanding*? I don’t know, and I don’t care, but if you’re not happy with your life, don’t come complaining to me… And that’s how that works!

            Until then, I’m fine, thank you very much, because I’m taking responsibility for the problem. It’s just a long, slow process.

          • http://akseiya.deviantart.com Michał Lech

            I’ve read all of these some time ago. None of them is anti-women.
            I’m very disappointed with your ability to read a text and actually understand it without desperate attempts to translate every sentence to something better fitting your preconceptions.

          • A. T.

            I’m very disappointed in your complete lack of reading comprehension. It’s a sad statement on the school systems of today. I’m going to go write to my Congressman.

        • DEDC

          She’s femsplaining.

      • DEDC

        Bullshit. AVFM are anti-women like Richard Dawkins is ‘anti-people-but-only-if-they-happen-to-be-christian’.

        Quit whining that your religion is being attacked or that some of your counterpart women are starting to become subjected to deserved real criticism. You should be thanking us for fulfilling the dream feminism has failed on delivering.

      • Mateusz82

        Can you find an example of “anti-women rhetoric”? Such a claim requires evidence.

        • A. T.

          I’ve posted it a couple times throughout this thread. Multiple links. Do any of you read AVFM?

          • Mateusz82

            I did, and found no anti-women rhetoric. In fact, I’ve read many articles on AVFM, and of those, many were written by women. It’s not enough to just post links. You need to post links that back up your claims.

          • A. T.

            I did and have. But here’s a fun quote I’ll leave you with before bed: The real reason men and women cant be friends is that women lack moral agency.

            Moral agency is a person’s ability to make moral judgments and take action that comport with morality. A moral agent is “a individual who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong.

            I’m not suggesting here that women, as a demographic, are immoral, although a surface reading of behavior might sometimes lead to that impression. Rather, they are amoral – simply lacking in a moral or an ethical compass.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

            If you think that’s not anti-women, you probably should go talk to someone else as I am not interested.

      • http://akseiya.deviantart.com Michał Lech

        You’ve just turned around and cried misogyny at people who oppose feminists. No, no time for that crap.

        • A. T.

          Byeeeeeeeee.

    • LikkiCurry

      You’re doing it wrong, mate. Not glorifying women is exactly what feminists consider “misogyny”. They hate for women to be treated as human beings.

  • sé do bheatha a bhaile

    The journalist who wrote this article wants a “nice” men’s movement, but she’s perfectly fine with misandry. I feel her pain, though. It’s not easy having your sex pilloried and lambasted for all to see. Welcome to a man’s world. We’ve sucked it up for forty long years. Now it’s your turn, bitch. Oh and all those “patriarchs” you see in various halls of government, reveling in power at the expense of women? Guess what? They are fulfilling obligations, to keep our society safe and running. They suffer heart illnesses and die early doing it. You’re gonna learn some respect, yes indeed.

    • lady_black

      Uh yeah. Good luck with your delusions. I will never respect you, but if you come anywhere near me, I just might hurt you.

      • Kimski

        ^Screen grabbed for the collection. Thank you.

        • lady_black

          That’s fine. Just make sure you also “screen grapped” the threat that this post was in response to.

          • goatini

            Oh, I screencapted that one. Chapter and verse all out of “Back To Patriarchy!” by the aforementioned Daniel Amneus.

          • Kimski

            Probably not, since I’m collecting quotes to do an article on the inherited violent nature of women, the learned violence that stems from the primary nurturer, and the effects it has on society as a whole that we refuse to hold women accountable for said violence.
            But I can promise you a much wider audience than you ever imagined, and these quotes will have one thing in common: They all originate from feminist ideologues who blame men for being violent.
            -You know, just to throw in that extra spicy dose of hypocrisy to top it off..

          • redlemon

            You’re like that small kid who constantly badgers and smacks another kid on the playground and then, when that other kid finally hits back, you run wailing to the teacher and show them your bruise to “prove” how much of a victim you are.

          • Kimski

            And you’re like that small kid who gets beat up and stuffed into lockers for being a mindless sheep.

          • redlemon

            Really? And who will be the one beating me up and stuffing me into lockers?

          • lady_black

            Well, sweetie, I can assure you that anyone who calls women bitches and says in a threatening way that he means to “teach them respect” is going to garner a self-defensive response. That isn’t a threat. That’s a promise. That isn’t violence. That’s instinct. And respect is never “taught.” Respect needs to be earned. Make sure you “screen grap” this one too. Wouldn’t want to cherry-pick, would you? Oh right… you already admitted that the only way it works for you is taking it out of context. Never mind.

          • Kimski

            aww, pot meet kettle…Take a closer look at the article you’re here to defend, and then come back and tell me about cherry picking, without sounding like you’re completely cognitive dissonant.
            You guys excel in cherry-picking and qoute mining, to get that hysterical emotional fix you crave so badly.

          • A. T.

            And I’ll be happy to share the screenshots I’ve gotten from this thread, AVFM comment’s section, reddit and many other locations that contain men that claim to want equality and care about men’s rights yet talk about domestic violence, hurting women and more.

            What might the inherited nature be there, you think?

          • lady_black

            Women are not entitled to self-defense from men who want to “teach them respect” don’tcha know?

          • A. T.

            My favorite comments were the ones discussing that men needed domestic violence to keep them in line and that men were only violent ‘when necessary’.

          • Kimski

            As opposed to women being violent whenever they don’t get their way. Just like you see it with children.

          • A. T.

            I hope you see a therapist for your issues.

          • Kimski

            Pathetic shaming attack. Are you going to threaten me next?

          • A. T.

            No. I’m sad that you dislike women. It’s just sad.

          • Kimski

            Tell that to my gf through the past 9 years. She’ll be thrilled to know that you can’t tell the difference between your gender and your ideology. Fits right in with her general view on feminist ideologues and their capabilities for rational thinking.

          • A. T.

            I was going by your negative toward women comments and inaccurate statistics designed to place the blame on women. It was a theme throughout your comments. I am happy to know you can and do have good relationships outside the internet. It certainly happens.

            And somehow, I don’t really care about her opinion on feminism, one way or another.

          • Kimski

            I do. That’s why I chose her. Reduces the irrational and juvenile behavior considerably.

          • A. T.

            Yes, choosing the right partner for oneself is a good decision. Have a cookie.

          • Kimski

            You just can’t help yourself, can you?
            Thanks for once again proving my point in the above.

          • A. T.

            lol. After the Captain Save comment, you’ve got no moral high ground and yes, watch you jump to have the last comment amuses me. :)

          • Kimski

            Projection.

          • A. T.

            *snicker* I’m sure. :)

          • Kimski

            I thought we’d already established that there’s a difference between ideology and gender, but you seem to be a bit slow on the subject. Want me to go over the birds and the bees for you, and then move on to ABC until you get it?

          • lady_black

            Once again, self defense isn’t “violence.”

          • Kimski

            And once again: BS. Any action that causes pain to another human being is violence by definition.

          • lady_black

            By that definition, TOO DAMN BAD. I WILL defend myself.

          • A. T.

            If someone came up and tried to attack me, I would defend myself and I wouldn’t consider that violence. I would have to be attacked first and unable to flee though.

          • Kimski

            Tell that to the children who suffer more than 70% of the DV at the hands of women.

          • lady_black

            Children have a right of self defense too.

          • A. T.

            Accredited sources, please. More than one.

          • Kimski

            Do your own homework or rent a Captain-save-a-ho’..

          • lady_black

            Wrong, sparky. YOU made the claim. that means YOU back it up.

          • wakjob

            The proof isn’t proof because the wrong person submitted it. See how you are?

          • A. T.

            You don’t have them? That’s what I thought. Thanks for playing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I will help you out Kimiski. Here is the irrefutable scientific data you are seeking. http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

          • A. T.

            He claimed toward children. But I’m happy to review the other. Thank you for the link.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So if a woman attacked me would I be in my right to defend against her attack? What do you think would happen to me if I did that?

          • A. T.

            Provided defend yourself meant just that, yes.

            If the law and police worked as they should, nothing. In practice? It varies. Sometimes law enforcement recognizes that women abuse men and that the dynamics vary. Sometimes bias or a clever abuser will carry the day.

          • wakjob

            Now there’s a distinction between violence and “violence.” A perfectly justified act of self defense, if violent, is violence. But it’s not “violence.” I can’t tell you how glad I am to have bought my dictionary before you guys got so serious about rewriting it.

          • A. T.

            You notice he never answered how it was different?

          • Kimski

            Would it have made any difference?
            No.

          • A. T.

            Does that mean you don’t have an answer?

          • Kimski

            No, it means that my answer wouldn’t have made any difference to ideological bigot like yourself, but thanks for showing interest.

          • A. T.

            Which translates to ‘I don’t have retort’.

            Thanks for playing. :)

          • Kimski

            Thanks for proving my point about being childish, since you consider this a game.

          • A. T.

            You’re not engaging in real debate, so I’m not sure what else you’re calling or considering this. Do you consider yourself to be trolling?

          • Kimski

            Natural and perfectly legit human response. Plain and simple.

          • A. T.

            So it would be different for women because…?

          • lady_black

            Self-defense is not violence.

          • Kimski

            BS.

          • A. T.

            How is it different for women? You just said it was a natural perfectly legit human response.

            In the above conversation, he threatened. Why is her response not natural?

            I’d love to hear you explain this.

          • Shan

            Did you get the one from the guy who wanted to slap the piss out of me?

          • A. T.

            I will check.

          • Shan

            Don’t worry about it. I was trying to describe it to someone IRL because it was so unexpected and then when I went to go show it a few hours later, it was gone.

          • A. T.

            ._. I’m sorry he was awful.

          • Shan

            Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

          • Kimski

            She’s dead, but what business is it of yours, anyway?

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        Where do you live?

        • kitler

          Isn’t it obvious? As a feminist, Lady_Black is straight from the pits of hell. She is an actual demon, bent on the utter destruction of the planet earth because hey, feminists are nazis.

          Right?

          /snark

        • lady_black

          On planet Earth. Where do YOU live?

    • goatini

      I heard it all didn’t work out so well for Daniel Amneus, the progenitor of your movement.

    • A. T.

      Yeah. Women are bitches and whores, but we’re the ones with the issue. Cool story, bro.

      I’ll ‘learn some respect’ the day you get a clue. <3

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        We’re bludgeoning feminism. It’s brutal and it’s merciless. You’re just gonna have to eat it.

        • A. T.

          You’re almost cute when you try this hard, but no.

        • lady_black

          In what universe will you be successful?

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Success? I never mentioned that. It’s the bludgeoning which counts, which is fun and gives me great joy.

          • Unicorn Farm

            ” It’s the bludgeoning which counts, which is fun and gives me great joy.”
            You should seek therapy.

          • A. T.

            There is where we hope the unbalanced individual is MGTOW.

        • expect_resistance

          You have a rich fantasy life.

    • fiona64

      Now it’s your turn, bitch.

      One does begin to feel a trifle sorry for these angry little boys … but it takes a long time.

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        I got the “feeling sorry” part, but “it takes a long time” is poor English.

        • fiona64

          Only if one is unfamiliar with idiom.

          Casse-toi, petit fils.

        • lady_black

          I don’t think so.

    • expect_resistance

      Women have put up with the ramifications of thousands if years of patriarchy so fuck you! I am an Eco-feminist anarchist and will fight for women’s equality until my last breath.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    Please allow me to step in and say something,

    “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” — Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

    “I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” — Robin Morgan

    “To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” — Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

    “The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things.” — Jilly Cooper, SCUM

    “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “Q: People think you are very hostile to men. A: I am.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

    “All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French, Authoress

    “Men use the night to erase us.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “The annihilation of a woman’s personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives.”
    — Andrea Dworkin

    “Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it ‘Her’. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination.”
    — Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women

    “On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom.”
    — Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women.

    “The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist” — Ti-Grace Atkinson

    ”Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice.” — Ti-Grace Atkinson

    “Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller; Authoress of Against Our Will p.6

    “When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.” — Sheila Jeffrys

    “Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.” — Catherine MacKinnon

    “All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.” — Catherine MacKinnon

    “You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs.”
    — Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

    “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone; Actress

    “Ninety-five percent of women’s experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive… women didn’t go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo.”
    — Jodie Foster; Actress – as quoted in The New York Times Magazine.

    “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female.

    “And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference.”
    — Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime

    95% of abused boys in juvenile facilities who reported unauthorized sexual activity with or by a female staff were WITHOUT FORCE, i.e. NOT attacked/coerced– Adele Mercier

    • A. T.

      Let’s see. What year was AVFM founded? SCUM was 1968? Yeah.

      It is horrifying and should be called out. But there’s a tiny difference in oh, age.

      The same with Dworkin. I believe Ms. Miller is still working though, I know Professor Mercier is.

      • Paul Johnson

        It’s a long, long pattern and it hasn’t changed. Elizabeth Sheehy.

        • A. T.

          I will look her up. I have to look into Miller anyway. I believe she has a speaking engagement and if I can find solid evidence of her RadFem crap, I promised to protest it. Whether it will do any good, we shall see.

          This lists a source, which will be helpful.

          • Paul Johnson

            /feminism/elizabeth-sheehy-cant-even-justify-herself-blamefeminism/

            at avoiceformen.

            An article by Diana Davison which is referenced.

          • A. T.

            You know how you guys say you aren’t a monolith? Yeah. I, for example, am a Christian. I read C.S. Lewis, Joyce Meyer and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. I have no desire to read Dworkin. Ever.

            SCUM is not referenced by anyone sane.

            Ms. Jeffries is, if I am correct about her identity, a TERF and shunned by quite a few now.

            I don’t mind conceding problematic origins. I mind the inaccurate assumption that we all get together, read these texts and plot man hating at our weekly meeting. It’s utterly inaccurate.

          • Paul Johnson

            I didn’t know we say we aren’t a monolith. We aren’t, and I don’t know why one would think that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve heard it. The MRM is older and more distributed than you may think. Look at the works of Robert St. Estephe for a history of the MRM.

            The main thing I have a problem with is the relentless misinformation and propaganda, and most notably the core nugget of feminism — the myth of patriarchy. The feminist myth of patriarchy is the least charitable, most one-sided character assassination of all men (and it is used to disparage all men and essentially is the central threat narrative of feminism — men are the bad guys), and does not examine all the exemptions and protections women had, the crap aspects of the men’s side of the deal, and why society emerged that way in the first place.

            My thing is this: If you believe men categorically subjugated and oppressed women for their own gain at women’s expense all throughout history, then you are at best woefully misinformed about human history, and at worst truly a misandrist. Either way, it’s not acceptable to me to hold those sexist views of men and perpetuate them in my presence. I will challenge them every time, and I will not let anyone close to me who harbors those lies.

          • A. T.

            I think Patriarchy is accurate to a point (I note men holding the majority of positions of power and don’t buy women ruling through mind control), but I think systems screw over everyone and that includes men. Poor men, men of color and others *were* disposable. The MRM is quite right about that. They are also correct in that men are not evil, anymore than women. There were and always have been men that loved their families, children, and were generally amazing.

            What I think the MRM misses is that women and children were also disposable at points and to degrees. Street children existed and exist now. Child labor laws had to be invented for a reason. Poor women had the option of working the streets or starving. The idea that women as class were protected, always, is not true. Plenty of women were and are seen as disposable.

            In summary, I think people were and can be awful to each other and that neither sex is evil.

          • Shan

            “The feminist myth of patriarchy is the least charitable, most one-sided character assassination of all men (and it is used to disparage all men and essentially is the central threat narrative of feminism — men are the bad guys),”

            I don’t think you understand either feminism or patriarchy. A.T. makes good points about that, better than what I was going to say because I think she’s younger and more optimistic, which is what we could all benefit from.

          • Paul Johnson

            The next thing I have a problem with is the lack of internal policing of feminism. Whenever one of these monsters gets on their soapbox slanders men to the world, or pushes for sexist legislation, all the “nice feminists” are strangely quiet. But when anyone calls out those toxic monsters on their vitriol, all the “nice feminists” come out of the woodwork to insist that NAFALT.

            Well it doesn’t matter if NAFALT. They’re complicit. They sit back and quietly reap the benefits but come out and play PR machine when someone calls them out.

          • A. T.

            Okay. Let’s start at the beginning. I’m straight and fairly conservative. I don’t (brace yourself) go forums for Lesbian women. Expecting me to not know about and magically police, say, RadFem Hub is silly. Expecting me to do something about women that are *dead* is just stupid. I don’t actually have the power to magically effect women across the globe or what you’re thinking.

            Now. There’s things I can do. I believe Miller Gearhart is speaking near me. I plan to address that. I protest TERF’s, which include Jeffries and others and note their comments on men and others.

            Let’s separate what I reasonably can do from what I cannot do, and ask the former of me.

            I’m not complicit in, for example, a forum I would never go near. Or something in Australia that I’m *not going to hear about 9 times out of 10*.

            It is fair to ask me to help with things in my country, that I might well reasonably hear about.

            We ask you to address AVFM, because you read it, care about it and are here discussing it. I don’t hold you responsible for every reddit or awful person with a blog. See a difference?

          • Shan

            “I mind the inaccurate assumption that we all get together, read these texts and plot man hating at our weekly meeting”

            Perfect LOL! Because I don’t have enough cognitive dissonance to do that and still continue my het relationship or have anything to do with my son.

          • A. T.

            The SCUM thing makes me crazy! I get there’s some scary RadFem people. I’ve seen Witchwind’s work and it was just scary, but dude. I don’t hang out at those places. I don’t know this crap. And everything you said. o_o

          • Shan

            Kinda glad I don’t know what RadFem is but thinking now that I ought to.

          • A. T.

            Scary! Apparently there’s two kinds, but the scary kind are scary. They scare me more than the MRAs, much more. o_o

          • Paul Johnson

            It’s also worth noting that these are feminist thought leaders, prominent authors and “scholars,” not fringe feminists.

        • RiseOfDivergents

          You forgot Adele Mercier

    • expect_resistance

      Talk about out of context. I’m an eco-feminst anarchist and even I disagree with Andrea Dworkin. There are many different philosophies of feminism. Men are feminists too and I value their struggle in the fight for equality.

      • Kimski

        Oh, the NAFALT argument is hardly valid when ENOUGH feminists are exactly like that. And you’re obviously supporting them through your actions.

        • A. T.

          Not true at all. Are you saying AVFM is all MRAs? That every MRA endorses it by their actions?

          • Kimski

            AVfM/MRA is not an ideology, so the question is irrelevant.

          • A. T.

            Why? I believe in the equality of the sexes. I can quite easily pick and choose who I support or not. I didn’t sign some contract that required me to read, follow or support those people.

            Your assumption that I do is inaccurate.

          • Kimski

            You sure spend a lot of time defending something you allegedly don’t support, then.

          • A. T.

            I’m not supporting Dworkin.

          • Shan

            Having read LOADS of her books and been heavily into reading them when I was in my early 20s, I can give that non-support a huge high-five.

  • Heisenberg

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

    • lady_black

      Good Charlie Sheen impersonation. “Winning.”

      • Heisenberg

        Never heard Charlie Sheen use that phrase.

        • A. T.

          ……..Seriously?

          • Heisenberg

            Srsly!

          • fiona64

            Apparently, he thinks the verifiable fact that women make 77-84 cents on the dollar compared to men is a myth! The only gap that is even close, at 93 percent (and still less than men) is amongst younger women. He is indeed fact-free on that one: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/08/on-equal-pay-day-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

          • Heisenberg

            Of course there’s a gender wage gap when you lump all women’s wages with all men’s wages. I’m sorry … it’s not the patriarchy’s fault that surgeons earn more than day care providers. The wage gap all but disappears when apples to apples comparisons of level of education, years of experience, etc are done. Don’t you think that if employers at large, could actually get away with paying women less, that they would only hire women? Paying a person less money than a fellow counterpart employee based on gender is, how do I put this … it’s illegal. Against the law. Prohibited by statue. Verboten. Have I mansplained that well enough?

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry … it’s not the patriarchy’s fault that surgeons earn more than day care providers.

            And female surgeons make less than male surgeons. How about if you try comparing apples to apples, as you state?

            Now, why don’t you go color while the adults talk?

          • Heisenberg

            “And female surgeons make less than male surgeons. How about if you try comparing apples to apples, as you state?”

            I assume you have a source to support this claim? Show me the data ….

          • sputnik

            Your self-righteous condescension is appalling, especially given that you’re arguing from pure ignorance. Again!

            Yes! Female surgeons make less than male surgeons! It’s true!

            Statistically, a male surgeon is far more likely to be the head of his own practice, while she’s more likely to hold an admin position or work for some government office.

            After years of scholarship money — on the public dime — something on the order of 50% of female graduates in medicine or business are simply gone, out of the profession. Mommy time: a noble and necessary thing to do, I might add!

            Farmers have trouble getting service from large animal veterinarians when Bessie goes into labor at 2 am, because approximately 50% of the practicing vets are women.

            See? The big bucks is inconvenient and stressful. Everybody knows how easy it is to effectively lie with statistics. So why do you do it? You gotta know by now that we ain’t a-gonna let you get away with it!

            Now, why don’t you go read up while the adults tackle the issues with personal integrity and discernment!

          • fiona64

            Personal integrity and discernment? From MRAs?

            Wow! Another good laugh, so early in the morning for me. Thank you!

          • Shan

            ” I’m sorry … it’s not the patriarchy’s fault that surgeons earn more than day care providers.”

            Hodor. I mean, fucking…HODOR.

        • lady_black

          Just because you never heard it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

          • Heisenberg

            Water is wet.

          • lady_black

            Well it was specifically when his life and career were crashing and burning because of his coked-up Anti-Semitism (among other coked-up misbehavior). He was his own worst enemy. much like MRAs, but I’m not sure what particular drug is their drug of choice.

          • Heisenberg

            The drug most MHRA’s are addicted to is the truth.

          • lady_black

            What is truth?

          • Heisenberg

            The truth …. you know, reality, ascertainable facts. In other words, Kryptonite to the victim feminist narrative.

          • lady_black

            Well that leaves you out. You have no facts.

          • Heisenberg

            Clearly you are computer literate. Any facts you might want are readily available with a brief Google search. Google “gender wage gap myth” or some variant and see what you find….

          • A. T.

            There’s a racial wage gap, whether or not you believe in the other. Racism also effects things like call backs and more. Lots of research and men that could use advocacy.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            You need to take off your feminists glasses/lens to see it, I know it is impossible for you.

          • lady_black

            It’s a question posed by Pontius Pilate, and never adequately answered. Mainly because “truth” depends upon perspective to a large degree. We’re all a bunch of blind people attempting to describe an elephant. We can’t because we don’t SEE the elephant in perspective, we can only feel individual parts of it. I can see how men are hurt and confused because what they have been taught all their lives to count on isn’t so. I’m sure the slave owners felt the same way. They were too invested in their own sense of privilege to realize the inherent wrong in owning other human beings, from the viewpoint of the other human beings who were owned. Well, some of them could see it. And most people outside the arrangement could see it. Most in the arrangement didn’t see it. Fear not. you will get over your shock and anger, and even if you don’t, you’ll die eventually. That’s what happened to slave owners and it will happen to you too. Either you’ll get over it, or you’ll die not having gotten over it. Either way, it will end.

          • fiona64

            The drug most MHRA’s are addicted to is the truth.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            You guys are on a roll today … keep those laughs a-comin’!

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Seriously! but you are the one who is tripping. LOL

          • fiona64

            Some of your fellow trolls have provided some good laughs … I just don’t think you realize why.

          • Heisenberg

            I love how anything that doesn’t toe the feminist line is dismissed as trolling …. cowardly.

          • fiona64

            So, you deny that all of you are here trolling?

            That’s hilarious.

          • Heisenberg

            I guess what I’m saying is that there seems to be no distinction drawn between trolling and dissent. Of course there are trolls. It’s teh internets.

          • fiona64

            In the case of this article, there *is* no difference between trolling and dissent. Or are you going to deny that your buddies over at AVFM called out the dogs to chew out the “bitches” for daring to report truthfully on your He-Man Woman-Hater’s Club meeting?

          • Heisenberg

            Reporting truthfully? You should really take the time to watch the YouTube videos of the conference. Maybe practice some of the open-mindedness that you wish to see in others?

          • A. T.

            I got told women’s contribution to civilization was spreading our legs. I’m unimpressed with the dissent (with a few exceptions) at the moment.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Sure, I agree, we have made some progress.

            “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
            ~Mahatma Ghandi

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            lol

      • Paul Johnson

        Charlie Sheen? Really? Do you really think Charlie Sheen coined that phrase?

    • expect_resistance

      You’re comparing MRAs to Ghandi? That’s fucked up.

      • A. T.

        A major strategy of Ghandi’s was to degrade women. It’s totally a civil rights ‘thing’.

      • Heisenberg

        Nope … they’re just putting his wisdom to use.

        • Erik Miles

          Yeah…pretty sure Ghandi never had to resort to calling his critics “Whores”, and he certainly didn’t encourage people to “dox” them.

          • Heisenberg

            Of course not. He lacked the technology to dox people.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    Feminism has been promoting hate, violence and call for male genocides for decades:

    Feminists sent death threats to Erin PIzzey, woman who set up the first DV shelter
    for women in modern world. Her misake, she said women can be as cruel
    and violent as men, her dog got shot and she had to spent years in
    exile.
    http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=634038

    Feminists advocating, women who experience abuse from their male partners should
    have the right to kill them in their sleep without fear of being charged
    with murder.
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/12/13/barbara-kay-prof-makes-bizarre-plea-to-place-battered-women-above-the-law/

    Feminists teamed up with liberal academia to advocate for eugenics, mass
    sterilization, and mass murder in the United States.

    Feminists using violence to silence speakers and physically intimidating attendees at University of Toronto
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUb9Yb2ucZI

    Feminists are encouraging women to beat their husbands and boy friends:
    http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have/all

    Feminists calling for male genocide using twitter:
    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23killallmen&src=hash

    7000 Violent feminists attacked and sexually assaulted christian men
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUb9Yb2ucZI

    Recently, feminists sent death threats to double tree hotel and its staffs
    because they are hosting Men’s issues awareness conference,
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/is-doubletree-downtown-hilton-dangerously-negligent-or-just-a-bunch-of-scheming-liars/

    Feminists supporting Twitter campaign #endfathersday: http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/endfathersday-happy-fathers-day-you-piece-of-shit/

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      A breath of fresh air, in an otherwise stiflingly stuffy room

      • Auntie Alias

        The exit is that-a-way. —->

        • RiseOfDivergents

          You mad!
          Facts and feminists are two shores of a river that never meet. LOL

          • A. T.

            ..,..Do you read AVFM?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Yes, I do and I know enough. do you read AVFM regularly??? because I do. I suggest you read especially the articles that came out in last one year. Men have issues and feminists ignore, trivialize and oppose addressing of those issues. There are a lot more anti feminists than MRAs, look at the comment section or those feminists articles.

            Ant feminism is becoming a new humanism. … just my observation.

          • A. T.

            I’m not up to date on the recent articles, I’m working through the archives bit by bit as I have time.

            And yes, men have issues that are trivialized, ignored or otherwise unsupported. When I see non-abusive advocacy happening on those issues, I’ll be happy to support it. I do support things like ‘Just Detention’ or ‘The Sentencing Project’.

            And yes, there’s some unpleasant feminists, along with some wonderful ones. It’s why I don’t think AVFM is all MRAs.

          • Shan

            “It’s why I don’t think AVFM is all MRAs.”

            I’d like to say the same but they’re not being very well represented outside their usual habitat (i.e., here).

          • A. T.

            Yeah. I’ve just met exceptions and it is important to acknowledge they exist.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Kudos to you, I hope you understand that men are human just like women and have problems and issues. Thanks for being open minded.

          • A. T.

            Of course they human beings and have real problems and issues. And you’re very welcome.

          • Auntie Alias

            Well, he’s whining about the atmosphere here. He’s free to leave.

        • Kimski

          The cognitive dissonance is that-a-way^

    • Auntie Alias

      Tedious propaganda pieces rehashed again and again. Guess what? It still doesn’t make virulent misogyny right.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        I let the people who have trust in this news site and in the author of this piece, decide.

        Why are you so mad!

        Let me tell you something, we are here to stay, you can not shame us and we will expose your bigotry and sexism.

        • Auntie Alias

          Sure you will. Just like you did in Detroit. Except not.

    • A. T.

      Do you call out MRA’s that send rape and death threats? Doxxing?

      By the way, I want you to call these things out. RadFem hub was a horror, for example. I’m just curious if you’re conveniently silent if it’s men threatening women.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        Proof or it did not happen!

        You mad!

        • A. T.

          That would be a no. That’s what I thought. Thanks for playing. :)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            We have a reward out for arrest and conviction of the person who allegedly assaulted Danille d’Etremont from Queens university.
            Interestingly enough feminists have been silent about this or helping with this.
            Guess those feminists like University students assaulted.
            And yes we call them out all the time.
            See how peter nolan is regarded and get back to me.
            Thanks for trying.

          • A. T.

            I wanted to know if this particular gentleman did.

            I did note the reward out for her attacker, actually.

            I also RT’d your article about Peter Nolan after I found and gave you credit for it and disavowing him. (And Mr. Forney.)

            Thanks for playing.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You could always go to a source, you know a mod at AVFM, someone like me for an answer instead of asking someone who as far as I know is a commentator on AVFM and not a mod or involved in the running of AVFM.

          • A. T.

            You missed the point. I want people to back their crap up. If he’s calling out feminists and his own, hey. If he’s doing the ‘I magically miss it whenever the reverse happens’ I’ll be less impressed.

            And yes, I know some feminists don’t it and/or you can’t prove who made threats at times. The last is not AVFM’s fault.

          • A. T.

            Oh- your article detailed on Forney was wrong for suggesting violence an option, treating women like children and more. It went on to suggest a relationship between equals. (Yes, I did read it.)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Could have sworn I said nolan
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/peter-andrew-nolanc-a-danger-to-self-and-others/

            Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c): A Danger to Self and Others

            And looking back at my comment I did.
            Thanks for pointing out we called out forney too.

          • A. T.

            Yes. I was trying to give you credit for Forney as well as Mr. Nolan, who is rather frightening. It’s why I came back and expounded on Forney. I *did* read it and I *did* appreciate it.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I noticed that, Discus gave me the one reply and then notice your other reply.
            However you have just proven, with your own comments, the allegations, spread about by those who oppose AVFM and the MHRM, to be disingenuous at best bordering on libel and slander.

            So my question to you is why continue to spread disingenuous information you know is factually incorrect?

          • A. T.

            I don’t believe it to be factually incorrect. I’m happy to link to the article I got it from and have in just about every case.

            Or to a series of articles to justify my thesis.

            The third option is that I’ve read the same things you have and vastly different opinion than you do.

            My problem with AVFM is very, very, very simple: I don’t like how they treat women. I support many of the broader causes.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I noticed your quote above. You only include part of the paragraph leaving the quote out of context.
            Somewhat disingenuous.
            And you have evidence of your thesis being incorrect but you ignore it?
            Instead of changing your thesis you continue with blind ideological devotion which guarantees an incorrect conclusion.

            I highly doubt you’ve read the same things I have.
            I spend about 16 hours / day researching and tracking down feminist factoids.
            Sometimes more.

          • A. T.

            No, actually, the full quote is more horrifying, at least to me. I’m glad if it helped you. I honestly don’t feel better and yes, I’d seen it before. The title is a subtle hint the article is not respectful

            And this is evidence is a new article that respects women? Can you link me? I’d love to see AVFM’s new leaf. :)

            ..You have way more time than I do. o_o

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            We respect humans.
            Why do you insist on creating a division?
            And the women who have self respect, which IMHO is a highly desirable attribute in a person and promotes respect, are respected and published at AVFM.
            Everyone is treated the same at AVFM, like adults.
            Unlike feminism which demands women be treated like adult toddlers incapable of having responsibility for their actions or choices.
            try taking your ideological blinders off and opening your mind.
            You’ll be amazed at how fast feminist theory falls apart.
            BTW back in the 90′s as a union shop steward I was a feminist.
            I’ll never disrespect my family name again by linking it to the inherent misanthropic ism commonly called feminism.
            Now you have some reading to do no?

          • A. T.

            Because your site clearly has divisions in it’s articles and the comments section. Address that and perhaps there won’t be any. And yes, no other women have self-respect, but those published there.

            You’re talking about misanthropy and AVFM publishes what it does? Your speech will work better when I lose the ability to comprehend. Until then, I’ll be insisting on basic respect for human beings. It’s what I don’t connect myself to certain parts of feminism either.

          • Shan

            “I spend about 16 hours / day researching and tracking down feminist factoids.
            Sometimes more.”

            *facepalm*

            Who does that help?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Someone has to keep feminists honest.
            That helps everyone.

      • fiona64

        I think it’s ironic that more than half of his “cites” are from a group on SPLC’s hate watch list, myself …

        • A. T.

          I know to check before I waste any time then, thank you.

        • RiseOfDivergents

          Another misinformation, you know it is not helping you.

          Now the question is A.T. she does seem like she has a brain however she is misinformed a bit, can she pick up this misinformation of yours without questioning the validity of it? Lets see.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry, are you angry that I pointed out reality to my fellow readers?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            As I said, let others decide. I am not angry, you are! I just said let others decide.

          • fiona64

            So much projection, all in one place. I’m watching a bunch of perfectly calm feminists respond to a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth MRAs, myself.

          • A. T.

            A. T. had a client and will be playing catch up. Will be slooow.

    • lady_black

      I think women who experience battering from male partners should kill them while they’re awake. That way there would be no argument that it wasn’t self defense.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        Cool so Men should have the same rights???

        Because domestic violence is not a gendered problem:

        This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical
        studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are
        as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their
        relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample
        size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

        http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

        Teaching people to kill other human being…. hmm.. I am wondering what made you that that way….. gotcha, you are a feminist.. no brainer here..You are making your feminist masters proud. .. We need you because you are the poster child of violence that feminism promotes.

        • lady_black

          I don’t believe standing your ground is a gender specific principle. Do you?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            That is what Elizabet Sheehy said and that is not what I said. If your life is in danger and you can not get out of it, sure you can defend but that is not the scenario she considered.

          • lady_black

            Stand your ground means you don’t have to flee. I would probably choose to flee if I could, in fact, I have. I never said I agreed with that perspective. I only implied it’s a shame she didn’t advise killing them during the attack instead. Now take out of that what you will.

        • lady_black

          Let me put it a different way. You would stand there and allow a woman to beat you to death with a baseball bat, and not defend yourself, Festus? I don’t believe a word of it.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            I already responded to that, see below

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You are a sick woman to speak of such violence against men.

        • lady_black

          Right… self defense is so unhealthy.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Teaching people to kill other human being…. hmm.. I am wondering what made you that that way….. gotcha, you are a feminist.. no brainer here..You are making your feminist masters proud. .. We need you because you are the poster child of violence that feminism promotes.

          • lady_black

            Would you rather I taught people to stand by and allow others to impose violence on them? Remember, I would be teaching that to my sons as well as my daughters. And my sons outnumber my daughters.

          • expect_resistance

            That is complete crap.

          • Dennis M

            There’s something called “proportionate response” you banshee.

          • expect_resistance

            And what would be the proportionate response to someone trying to kill you? I would say if someone is trying to kill me I will use deadly force to fight back.

        • expect_resistance

          No self defense is justified. If someone try’s to fuck with me I will give them hell.

      • wakjob

        This lady_black comment is what advocating violence looks like. See how it’s actually there and you don’t have to imagine it up?

        • A. T.

          I’m sure it’s satire, just like Paul Elam suggesting running down a woman with a car, other article describing beating a woman…

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            According to Elizabeth Shehy, a law professor, it is ok for women to murder their sleeping boyfriends or husbands with impunity from the CCC. Is that the kind of satire you are talking about?

          • A. T.

            No. I don’t think anyone, feminist or MRA should be talking about violence, let alone describing it in detail. I’m happy to protest all of it. I haven’t read Sheehy, though I did see the RadFem awfulness.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You know damn well that article was satire in reply to a jezebel piece. The irrefutable evidence has been provided to you numerous times.
            Why do you insist on lying?

          • A. T.

            http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/

            Article 1, printed *before* Jezebel: http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/post/90143323346/how-to-tell-if-he-hates-your-fucking-guts-april-3

            How exactly does that make it clear that DV is not okay? Or!

            http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/post/90144160201/the-failed-manhood-of-white-knights-may-23-2012

            GWW: http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/post/90145135101/girl-writes-what-weighs-in-on-dv-august-15-2012

            Now. Self-defense is sometimes necessary. But none of this comes across like ‘DV is bad, we shouldn’t do it to each other’ as much ‘that wench got what she deserved!!’. Nor do I see a lot of mention of the risk of bias towards men, if police get involved, which is something I talk to my male clients about. Mandatory arrest laws have helped, but it’s a reality and they need to know revenge may not work in their favor.

            Lastly, compare how Male DV survivors are treated in this article, specifically re: nagging- http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/13-reasons-its-unlucky-to-be-a-man/

            It seems quite clear there that nagging isn’t an excuse for a woman. Why isn’t it for a man? Why is hitting a woman described in such gleeful detail by Elam?

            Why does GWW embrace the idea that it’s better that a little violence is better, when that’s not how DV works? A little child abuse doesn’t keep a child abuse victim alive or make an abuser not get worse.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Link 1
            Yes feminism really does say its ok for a woman to hit a man. See the Duluth model. I found it hilarious when the cops told me to “suck it up we don’t intend to enforce the law.”
            When I tried to have one of my abusers held accountable.
            Link 2
            I see over the top obvious sarcasm escapes you.
            Link 3
            You should go ask the CDC if you doubt its numbers. And it is pointing out men who attack at the slightest accusation by a woman are wrong.
            I’m guessing you don’t want proof before a male is subjected to violence at the behest of a woman?
            Or is it your fine with males being victims?

            GWW comments on an article and includes anecdotal evidence, ends with domestic violence isn’t pretty (indicative of her not condoning it) and you try and twist it into her saying it is pretty.
            Your doing a wonderful job helping the MHRM so far.
            Thanks for the last link I welcome those who dare to actually read the article.
            Cheers.

          • A. T.

            Link 1) That’s completely horrible and I’m sorry. I’d like to think a complaint would do something, but it probably wouldn’t. How does that make an article that justifies domestic violence with it’s helpful descriptions and telling a victim it’s her fault okay? The ‘satire’ excuse, especially when it sounds just like a batterer talking, is wearing very, very thin.

            Your abuser should have been held accountable.

            Link 2) Over the Sarcasm all sounds like his previous work, which all sounds like domestic violence against women can be justified. *That is a problem.* It’s a problem when women do it. It’s a problem.

            Link 3) I’m not sure I even understand your question. Men who attack at the slightest accusation of a woman? <- What does that mean? Why do I need proof of men being victims? Is there a test you've developed?

            To be overly clear: No one should be violent with anybody. Defending yourself happens, but there's not an excuse beyond that. 'Consensual violence' is not an excuse for domestic violence. People are responsible if they hurt people, man or women. No, the man doesn't need to pass a test to be a survivor.

            GWW said a little DV could keep it from getting serious (do you say that to women abusers?) and some women want to be abused. You don't see a problem with that?

            And yes. This is what I've come to expect from you. Blah, excuses, blah.

            And yes. The last link makes it quite clear how female victims are referred to versus male victims. AVFM does not even pretend at equality here.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Not a single article condones violence this is your grasping at straws interpretation.
            I wish you had of studied literary tools at some point in your education.
            Still perhaps there is hope for you yet;
            http://www.mindmeister.com/35969522/literary-devices-used-in-satire

          • A. T.

            You do realize that insults don’t make the articles go away? Or the wording? If sounding superior if your thing, hey. And yes, I’ve heard the satire excuse ad nauseam. It has ceased to be convincing.

            Traumatized people sometimes behavior in ways that repeat old patterns. Abusers sometimes abuse. People aren’t ‘addicted’ to abuse, they’re not taking responsibility for behavior. Or would you argue (and yes, I hear you re: not promoting it) that they are addicted to child abuse and less is better?

            I’m hoping your response would be no and people would be accountable for abuse. I certainly sympathize with circumstance and how people can fall into patterns, just not the part where abusers get called ‘addicted’. They make a choice, including not to get help. And you can get help without leaving the relationship.

            And yes, plenty of abusers are female.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Your willful choice to ignore literary tools employed by authors only undermines your position(s) and ability to be an objective reader. So naturally I sought to help you with some educational tools. I extended the olive branch and you willfully turned it down.

            Point 2,
            Nobody said the abusers were addicted that was your ideologically driven interpretation.
            However now that you have broached the topic of addiction how do you explain masochism then if people do not become addicted / find pleasure to what society for the most part would say is not pleasure?

            “noun: masochism the tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from one’s own pain or humiliation”

            This is not me saying all women are masochists nor are all men but there is a subset of the population that does exist who derive pleasure from pain.

            There is also a subset of the population who derives pleasure from inflicting pain.

            Sometimes individuals ( abused and abuser) seek out relationships that are abusive and dysfunctional.
            However I am failing to see where any abuse has been condoned or promoted.

            Observations made yes, something promoted nope.

            There was no mention of child abuse and you bringing it up leads me to believe you have gotten confused again due to ideological blinders being used.
            When you can remove them perhaps we can have a productive conversation.

            You should stop using Joy’s tactics they didn’t work out well for her and they aren’t working out well for you either.

          • A. T.

            I don’t think that’s what you were doing, somehow.

            Point two, I refer you to your own words: ‘And sometimes men are addicted to abuse, your point?’ <- You said that.

            Finding something pleasurable in the bedroom is accepted as a normal part of sexuality. BDSM is practiced with consent and respect by many, many couples who are able to enjoy sensations without emotional abuse. Enjoying the physical or even humiliation in a select sexual context is not what we're discussing.

            Yes, traumatized people, from children to adults, sometimes do act out trauma they've experienced or repeat patterns that make them vulnerable. Abusers and predators both continue their behavior unless stopped. There's quite a bit of research on both of these topics.

            I was trying to make a point. You would not excuse these behavior in another context or justify it and rightly so.

            Mhm.

      • A. T.

        ..Let’s not kill anyone if at all possible though. ._. I get sometimes people’s lives are literally in danger, but prevention is best when possible!

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      I’m going to correct every single false statement you made here.

      1) there is ZERO evidence that Erin Pizzey was threatened or that her dog was killed by feminists. She said her dog disappeared and then decided to blame it on feminists.

      2) That’s not what Liz Sheehy is talking about. She’s talking about a legal problem with women who use self defence to prevent their male partner from murdering THEM.

      3) Eugenics? Now that’s laughable since the source you link to has every eugenicist being a MALE. It’s amazing how much you’ll trot out this copy pasta.

      4) People protested the event at U of T. That’s called freedom of expression in Canada. You can’t silence dissent like you MRA’s want to because that’s called totalitarianism. Plus, you white dudes have never had to protest a day in your lives and yet you think by dick wagging that feminists and allies aren’t going to protest you? Think again.

      5) Nope. That Jezebel article does nothing of the sort.

      6) Hahahah. Is that the #killallmen hashtag? Dude, go complain to Game of Thrones for that one.

      7) I covered this protest in latin America. What happened, is what typically happens within patriarchy and is happening in the US right now, is that women aren’t allowed contraception or abortion. These women die by the tens of thousands each year from back alley abortions. They were protesting the CHURCH who is influencing these PATRIARCHAL policies because the church has a stranglehold on latin American countries. Now what did the latin American men do? They went to the church while the women were protesting it to PROTECT THE CHURCH. None of those men gave two shits whether women were dying or not.

      8) Feminists didn’t send ONE death threat or bomb threat to the hotel. In fact Paul Elam is sneakily trying to recoup over $100K because he KNOWS there were no threats and thinks the Doubletree was trying to swindle AVFM out of security money. See my blog Mancheeze on WordPress for full coverage of that.

      9) the hashtag #endfathersday was started by MRA’s and 4chan to bait feminists. Kinda like what MRA’s did when they sent over 300 false rape reports to Occidental college.

      SO, dudebro, GIANT FAIL.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    hmm….I have more ….Feminists are corrupt to the core:

    Feminist groups block or remove men’s protections against rape by female sexual predators.
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape
    http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/a-sad-day-for-male-rape-victims-in-india/

    Feminists telling conservating women that they are not wanted in feminism and they should not be here
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/03/get-a-load-of-the-striking-shift-in-tone-after-feminists-learn-identity-of-news-outlet-interviewing-them/

    National Association of Women and the Law is deliberately marginalizing men (husband and fathers) and robbing them of fair custody of children by providing women a model of domestic violence where it is easier for women to get the custody and children and force men to pay child support
    http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=1038476&Mode=1&Language=E

    Experts concluded that Jennifer McIntosh, a gender ideologue feminists inappropriately used her study to suggest that any regular overnight care by fathers was damaging to infants and toddlers. Their verdict was that:
    ‘‘This study [by McIntosh] provides no reliable basis to support custody policy, recommendations or decisions.’’
    The articles:
    http://sharedparenting.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/40/
    http://sharedparenting.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/39/
    http://equalparenting.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/12/

    Jacquelyn C. Campbell, PhD, RN, and the Anna D. Wolf, feminists Professor in the School of Nursing at Johns Hopkins University. Campbell and her co-authors made the false statement “Femicide, the homicide of women, is the leading cause of death in the United States among young African-American women aged 15 to 45 years.” by misquoting the The [1998 DOJ] study which does not say that intimate-partner homicide is the leading cause of death among African-American women.
    A complain is filed against her.
    http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/22/are-domestic-violence-statistics-bogus

    Prof. Holly Johnson, a feminist professor from university of ottawa mangling with domestic violence number,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDoMaikQr24&safe=active

    In Revolution from Within, Glroria Steinem asserts that 150,000 women and girls in the United States die from anorexia every year — multiplying the actual number by about 1,000. (As Christina Hoff Sommers documented in her 1994 book, Who Stole Feminism?, the claim of a 150,000 death toll was based on a feminist professor’s mangling of a statistic referring to anorexia sufferers.) The same book discusses an alleged crisis in girls’ self-esteem based on a single shoddy study from the American Association of University Women.,
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/12/01/gloria_steinem_represents_the_worst_of_modern_feminism_120818.html#ixzz2xDFGskXX

    RAINN, Feminists number one resource for facts say Rape Culture does not exist.
    http://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

    • goatini

      Not ONE impartial source linked to. What a surprise, not.

      • Dennis M

        Yeah goat, I’m sure you get the information that fuels your fires from “impartial sources.” Do you even notice the site we’re having this discussion on?

        You’re pathetic.

        • expect_resistance

          It’s “goatini” not “goat.” And goatini is correct.

  • Heisenberg

    My opinion … victim feminists are no different than right wing conservatives; left wing liberals, or extreme religious zealots. They’re all living in different blind spots.

    • expect_resistance

      How many women have violently attacked you? How many women have sexual assaulted you? Have you ever been afraid to walk down the street alone at night that you might be raped?

      And what is this “Victim feminists” you talk about? Are you making fun of women who have been abused by men?

      • Heisenberg

        “Are you making fun of women who have been abused by men?”
        Get a grip, my friend.
        I haven’t personally experienced any of the hardships unique to being a man or a woman. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that I shouldn’t care about them. My heart goes out to any person who is genuinely a victim of abuse or injustice. When I say victim feminist, I’m talk about the brand of feminists who operate under a victim narrative that women are broadly and perpetually oppressed by men as a class. Pass.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          And yet here you are, doing just that. By being part of a group that blames women for all your problems you’re doing exactly what feminists knew you’d do when we started gaining more power in the public sphere.

  • Phil McCracken

    4 paragraphs in I’ve heard enough out right lies to begin to wonder of the absolute irony of your websites name. And whether the author and editor of this article went to school for journalism and understand the concept of fact checking. You should be ashamed and embarrassed of yourselves.

    • RiseOfDivergents

      That is why it is a super bad idea to hire gender study majors, they practice and train for four years in sexism, bigotry, misinformation and terrorism by the most bigot and sexist acadmics. Look at those gender study majors in Warrell Farell protest in UoT.

      • A. T.

        We’re like the Black Widow now?! Dude, that’s awesome.

      • Phil McCracken

        This is why we need to be our own media and speak up for ourselves. Biased rags like this think spewing lies and maintaining an echo chamber is “journalism”.

        • A. T.

          No, they should just reprinting AVFM articles. I like sharing them. It’s very helpful to people. :)

          • Phil McCracken

            Thank you, it certainly is. The “Bash A Violent Bitch” article was satire and a response to a Jezebel article making light of female abusers of men. Intelligent people will see this and the worm will continue to turn.

          • A. T.

            He wrote an article before it with similar sentiments. It stops being satire when you repeat it and endorse the sentiment. Cool story, bro.

          • Phil McCracken

            Yup, yawn, bla bla bal, fuck off. Make an argument or else.!!

          • A. T.

            I did it. It’s a bit advanced for you, apparently. I’ll let you use the dictionary for the big words.

    • fiona64

      So, cite the lies and prove them wrong. I issued the same challenge to another of your compadres, and he’s been notably silent on the matter.

    • A. T.

      I take it you’ve never watched Molyneux’s videos?

      • Phil McCracken

        I have.

        • A. T.

          So you were clearly not referring to the parts that referenced him or Mr. Elam, just the beginning and the anti-Pua confusion?

    • Auntie Alias

      The only inaccuracy I see is the hate group designation. It’s really splitting hairs since the SPLC has branded AVFM and others as misogyny sites.

      • fiona64

        Yep … they’re on a watch list. They haven’t *yet* been designated as a hate group.

  • Sarah Stuart

    I am not a fan of AVFM, but this article perpetuates myths. SPLC never designated AVFM as a hate group, it merely said that it found the site “troubling”. It later on clarified its position as some biased outlets were deliberately misinterpreting what it said.

    Furthermore, the FBI has cut the SPLC loose, as it does not rely on original research anymore and therefore cannot be trusted.

    Moreover, this article conflates AVFM with the men’s rights movement, which is about as accurate as drawing parallels between Dworkin and feminism. One may identify as the other, but the hatefulness is not embraced by the majority.

    • fiona64

      SPLC never designated AVFM as a hate group, it merely said that it found the site “troubling”.

      It’s still on their watch list.

    • Auntie Alias

      “the hatefulness is not embraced by the majority”

      I hope you’re not referring to AVFM.

    • Phil McCracken

      I like AVFM and your comment as it’s objective and truthful, unlike this article. Thank you.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      The FBI hasn’t cut SPLC loose. They just took their name off of something. They still use the SPLC so you’re lying there. You’re right though, they didn’t designate them as a hate group but as a hate site.

      AVFM is the MRM. Show me another men’s rights movement that doesn’t significantly overlap with AVFM?

  • TPH

    “Men’s Rights Conference Host Says Women Who Drink and Dance Are ‘Begging’ for Rape”

    Baloney. Why not actually view the conference footage?

    Context matters and cherry picking quotes just shows me your angle, one of complete bias without even taking the time to objectively view the conference or read the articles in question.

    • lady_black

      I did read it. I am SO unimpressed by the context.

      • Shan

        And in WHAT context is it ever okay to say that about ‘begging’ for rape?

        • lady_black

          None. That’s why I’m unimpressed.

          • A. T.

            I should find the cosmo article. Apparently cosmo and sex in the city is detrimental to the modern women. :)

  • fiona64
    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      lmao yah he was funny, his writing is hilarious.
      It looks like he sold his journalistic integrity to feminism though.

      • fiona64

        Looks like someone doesn’t like that their little He-man Woman-Hater’s Club meeting was called out by a guy for being a giant poorly-attended bigot-fest …

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Your ignorance is astounding fiona.
          Do you have daddy issues by chance?

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; I’m not interested in being part of your fantasy. Guys who want to pretend they are pedophiles skeeve me out. And, as I have already told two of your charming little friends down-thread, I am only attracted to men. I must, on these two grounds, decline your charming invitation.

            Do you have “mommy issues” that make you such a woman-hater, Danny?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I was merely trying to discover why you hate men so much fiona.
            In regards to your penchant for little boys please go to the nearest police station and turn yourself in.
            Personally at 45 my cut off is around 35, women under that age just don’t have enough experience in the world to be interesting to me.

            And I do have issues with abusers, my mother did a nice job on her sons.
            Might be a contributing factor as to why one of them offed himself on mother’s day weekend.
            However the question you avoided was the father one, can we say you suffer from unresolved daddy issues then?
            And care to provide any proof I hate women, or you just another one of those cute little feminist libelers?

          • A. T.

            Words are inadequate, but I’m so sorry for your loss.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Thank you for your condolences.
            That loss was nothing compared to hearing from his last girlfriend how Anthony used to flee the house and go to her parents place so she could put ointment on his back after he was beaten with a belt.
            I forgive my mother, she did not know any better. I do lover her, she carried me and brought me into this world.

            But I do hate her sins and can never forget them.

          • A. T.

            I’m not going to tell a survivor of child abuse how to cope. I’m glad for the healing you’ve been able to do and hope things are even a little better now. Happy even, would be awesome.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I think Fiona has not been laid a while.

          • Auntie Alias

            I should compile all these delightful sentiments.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Weren’t you JUST complaining that “feminists always resort to sexually shaming men”? You aren’t even trying not to look like a hypocrite.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes I was.

          • expect_resistance

            You’re a hypocrite

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are entitled to your opinion.

          • Shan

            Who’s doing the sexual shaming now?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So you agree it is not nice, but I did not see any rebuke against the women who were doing this all day long to men. Yes, hypocrisy and double standards alive and well.

            In Ontario there is even a condominium commercial that compares the size of a condominium to the size of a man’s penis. More specifically, the inadequate size of a man’s penis. Been running for months. Imagine the same commercial using the reproductive anatomies of women as being inadequate.

          • A. T.

            ..You realize feminists complain media and sexualization often?

          • Shan

            “So you agree it is not nice, but I did not see any rebuke against the women who were doing this all day long to men”

            Have you ever read “Catcher in the Rye”?

          • expect_resistance

            Projection speak for yourself some of us are getting it all the time.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    For curious minds,
    Here is a very recent straw poll of members of the /r/mensrights sub-reddit, the largest online community of men’s rights activists (MRAs), about what issues are considered important to the men’s rights movement (MRM).

    Things that are MRM issues:

    - Ending sentencing disparities between men and women
    - Creating a presumption of shared custody
    - Better support for male victims of domestic violence
    - Better mental health support for men, especially to reduce suicide
    – Addressing the cultural demonisation of men and masculinity
    - Having ‘made to penetrate’ counted as rape in official statistics
    - Reforming the Title IX/Dear Colleague Letter system of college tribunals
    – Addressing disparate educational outcomes between boys and girls
    - Re-assessing the alimony system
    - Ending/equalising Selective Service
    - Addressing media representations of men and masculinity
    - Creating legal paternal surrender (also known as ‘paper abortion’)
    – Ending male genital mutiliation (also known as ‘circumcision’)
    - Legalising gay marriage

    Things that aren’t MRM issues (but have been, often bizarrely, alleged to be):

    - Legalising marijuana
    – Having feminism designated as a ‘hate group’
    - Making women pay for dinner-dates
    - Ending racism against white people
    - Ending involuntary celibacy (incel)
    - Reducing the size of government
    - Restoring traditional gender roles
    – Being able to force women to have abortions
    - Educating young men in pick-up artistry (also known as ‘the game’)
    - Ending welfare and other support for single parents
    - Making friendzoning illegal”

    • Dennis M

      I agree with everything accept the gay marriage part. I support gay marriage but I’m kind of sick of corporations and political movements trying to shoe-horn their support of it into their campaigns to seem progressive and hip and modern. Gay marriage is a gender neutral issue.

      • Chris Smith

        Marriage should be restricted to gay couples only, because then both parties would be treated equally in under the law if they decided to divorce, since they are of the same gender.

        • wakjob

          I have wondered how the court will know which one to put the screws to, in such cases.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

          Not so. The courts will just choose the gay person with the most money and make a racket of going after them.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      And yet, the entire conference was dedicated to bashing women and feminists, making and laughing at rape jokes, and giving out chapsticks from Tara Palmatier, the ‘therapist’ who proudly called women narcissists with Golden Uterus Syndrome.

      Make sure you send money to Paul Elam.

  • gary959

    Watch it here and decide:
    http://youtu.be/PgQ2f3z2Xmk

  • Phil McCracken

    Time to screencap this thread to provide evidence of your censorship of dissent. Liars and bigots will be exposed. Welcome to the internet.

    • fiona64

      You’re funny. Violate TOS and your post will be deleted. I’m sorry you missed the memo.

      • Phil McCracken

        You’re not speaking to some naive child without manners and experience in these matters.

        • fiona64

          My “not speaking to some naive child without manners” what?

          Oh, you meant “You’re,” as in “you are.”

          Okay.

          The point remains that this site (in the many years I’ve posted here) has never failed to let polite dissent remain. Trolling, BTW, is not polite dissent.

          • Phil McCracken

            Fuck off.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry … as I told one of your little friends down-thread, I’m only attracted to men. Despite your charming invitation, I must decline.

          • Phil McCracken

            See above. This man won’t have you. MGTOW don’t give a shit.

          • Unicorn Farm

            So go your own g*damned way and get the fuck out of here. No one wants you.

          • fiona64

            After looking the acronym up, I have concluded that this is their way of re-writing history and pretending that *they’re* doing the rejecting … instead of, you know, acknowledging the reality of the situation.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Panties tightly bunched up and in a tight knot.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No substantive reply, just a general obsession with my panties. Sounds like a men’s rights advocate!!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Mere an observation, not an obsession. There is a difference. Why are you so angry and frustrated?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m not mad, I’m amused watching you all flip your shit all over this thread. My original post about you all MGTOWing isn’t even directed at you. And if you’re looking for the person who is mad, then please realize that you’re the one who is simultaneously enraged that women are allowed to abort your precious baybees, despite the fact that women are apparently made to gestate, and also that women are getting pregnant without your explicit permission. You still have yet to provide a single substantive response to any of my posts.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Clearly misguided mens rea.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s some projection

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, it’s an observation based statement.

          • expect_resistance

            Didn’t know that’s how you like you undies. TMI stop with the details

          • fiona64

            I already told you, sweetie. I’m only attracted to men. You don’t qualify.

            Oh, MGTOW? That seems to be the new slang acronym for “I can’t get laid, so I’m going to act like I’m doing the one rejecting instead of vice-versa,” amiright?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Like I said, it always must go to sexually shaming and slandering males, by the ilk of women like you.

          • A. T.

            ..You implied a man wouldn’t want her above. How does this work again?

          • expect_resistance

            You just engaged in man shaming. What the hell is your problem

          • A. T.

            No, no. We like this! It means they leave women alone and go do their own thing. It’s great. :)

          • A. T.

            You’re the one that thought women’s contribution to society was spread legs. Please don’t breed and please stay MGTOW. Thanks!

          • Phil McCracken

            You have no option in the matter.

          • A. T.

            True. I can but hope.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not sure if any man would actually be attracted to someone like you, I mean a real man.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Ah, I thought you said feminists couldn’t have a conversation without shaming a man and there you ‘ooops, did it again’

          • expect_resistance

            Hey what’s with the man shaming? You are a hypocrite.

          • Chris Smith

            “Trolling” is a lame excuse used by those dislike being challenged and those who cant defend their own arguments.

          • expect_resistance

            No, there is a community here and we can spot an MRA troll a mile away. This onslaught of MRA trolling is almost expected. I’ve seen it all before.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I would challenge the trolling bit, but will give you a heads up about getting used to seeing more and more individuals call feminism out for its idiocy and lies.
            You best get used to it.
            Have a wonderful day and thanks for helping our ranks grow.

          • Auntie Alias

            Hail, hail the gang’s all here! (I knew you’d arrive eventually.)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I am a little busy but do try and come by just to say hi to you Auntie.

          • Auntie Alias

            You’re so very thoughtful!

          • Chris Smith

            You mean on onslaught of different points of view. We can smell feminists a mile away.

          • expect_resistance

            The onslaught of MRA lies.

          • fiona64

            ::pats head::

            You keep telling yourself that, sweetie.

          • A. T.

            lol. What is DARVO then?

          • Chris Smith

            I dont know…What is DARVO?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Can you debate a man without resorting to being condescending?

          • expect_resistance

            Why would you ask that when everything you’ve said is a sexist rant against women?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Got it. So when we address issues of concern about women, we must abstain there from or sugar coat it to obscure the truth.

          • expect_resistance

            No you don’t got it.

        • expect_resistance

          You sound childish.

    • Auntie Alias

      It’s the new activism!

      • Chris Smith

        Hey, remember me?

        • Auntie Alias

          Can’t say that I do.

          • Chris Smith

            Yeh you do…

          • Auntie Alias

            It took me awhile to remember that I should avoid you.

    • expect_resistance

      I have screen shots of an MRA at SYG who violently threatened me. So back the fuck off.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

        Lets see that screen grab please we don’t put-up with violent individuals or those who advocate for violence in our ranks. (unlike feminism.)

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You are scary and angry. She said back the F off. We are all now shaking in our boots.

  • Chris Smith

    Wow…It seems that the conference has made all you card carrying feminists even more angry and bitter as of late. Does it burn when an MRA comes out with a point of view other than your own victim-narrative? Or when the movement gets more media coverage and more men discover the manosphere? I bet it does, like you need some ointment or something.

    If you have such as issue with people challenging you with facts or evidence, may I suggest calling it a day and getting yourself a cat or two.

    Good day.

    • fiona64

      f you have such as issue with people challenging you with facts or evidence,.

      Funny, all of the facts and evidence I’ve seen presented today came from the regular posters here, not the MRA trolls. But you rock on, buddy.

      • Chris Smith

        Nope, what your fellow posters have on here has been baking in the sun for too long.

        • expect_resistance

          Oh go cry to your MRA buddies.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Men don’t cry according to feminists. They are not allowed to have feelings. They need to soldier on no matter what. Notice most of these women do not even have the guts to use their real names and their actual photos.

          • redlemon

            As a feminist, I am perfectly accepting of men crying and showing feelings. Number one, men “not be supposed to cry or show feelings” is a feature of how patriarchal our society is. Crying is associated with women and “weaker” character, which insults both women and men. Number two, it harms men because every human should have the right to express their feelings. Number three, it harms relationships because bottling feelings doesn’t do anyone any good.

            But thanks for telling me what I believe.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So then why are men considered as defective or inadequate and weak when they show their feelings or concerns about men and boys. Many of the females here are calling these concerns as whining MRAs.

          • redlemon

            First, I don’t speak for all feminists. We are not a monolith. Second, this whole comment section isn’t about concerns for men and boys. It’s devolved into a bunch men coming in here and explaining to us why we’re “wrong” in this matter and a bunch of condescending remarks on how we’re not thinking about men enough. On a website that is primarily dedicated to women’s issues. You’d have to be deluded to think that any of the MRA’s that came in here are dedicated to any sort of civil discourse. Third, insults have been hurled from your side, what makes you think we won’t insult back?

            You don’t want to be insulted? Find your own safe space. Moderate it however you wish. Say what you want there. Meanwhile, if you come here to stir up trouble, you get what you get.

          • Shan

            “So then why are men considered as defective or inadequate and weak when they show their feelings or concerns about men and boys.”

            Women don’t think that. We are married to men, we are daughters of men, we are sisters of men, and we are mothers of men and boys. Why would we not be concerned about men and boys?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Great to hear. Sadly not all women think like you.

          • Shan

            You honestly think your mother and wife and sisters and daughters and nieces and aunts and grandmothers…hate you?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Actually my mother, my grandmother love me unconditionally. I dreamed of having a sister, who died due to medical complications.

            My wife pretended to love me as her interest was mostly in my millions. I know my ex wife, her sisters, her girlfriends, her daughter, her mother hate me because my ex made sure she did what ever necessary to make it so.

            But that is not as important as the patently copious amount of hate by society towards men and boys. I find that, disturbing.

          • A. T.

            Probably for the same reason you call feminists whiny?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That says nothing.

          • A. T.

            Use your imagination. Why might you call a feminist whiny? What assumptions are in your mind when you do so?

          • Shan

            “Men don’t cry according to feminists.”

            I think you’re mixing your metaphors or something. I don’t believev I’ve ever heard any feminist say “Real men don’t cry.” That’s more of a guy thing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Women will say they don’t mind a man crying, but they will not want to be near such a man. Males are taught to not cry from a very young age, by mothers. Oh and those same mothers do an awful lot of hitting those boys, much more than girls from as early as less than a year old.

          • A. T.

            My dad tears up at movies. I’m still near him and quite often. When you generalize to this degree it, becomes inaccurate.

            Fathers and mothers discourage boys from crying, something I’ve seen at least one feminist campaign address. Try again.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So does my father and so do I, but that does not dismiss the fact that mothers tell their boys not to cry, while they tolerate their girls to cry. I am noting mothers, as most fathers have been driven out of the lives of children by mothers.

          • fiona64

            most fathers have been driven out of the lives of children by mothers.

            Citation needed.

          • redlemon

            Ah yes, I remember my mother telling my brothers to stop acting girly and stop crying. I remember her slapping if they ever dared to put on a play pair of high heels or play with a barbie.

            Oh wait. That was my father. My “men don’t have any rights because of feminists” father. And my mother not stopping it because she believed that men were always right.

          • A. T.

            There are some others that do this and it is unfortunate. It does not mean we can generalize about all, even as we note it as a problem that can and should be addressed.

            Accredited sources for your last statement?

          • Shan

            “Males are taught to not cry from a very young age, by mothers. Oh and
            those same mothers do an awful lot of hitting those boys, much more than
            girls from as early as less than a year old.”

            Wow, your woman-hate goes deep. I mean, seriously.. Because no DADS ever did any of that? Major projection there.

            If it’s any consolation, I would have called the authorities on any family where I thought that was going on.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Don’t take shots at the messenger. Now I understand why you hate Stefan Molyneux who makes the fact that mothers do most of the child hitting, public information.

            So she pulls out the he must hate women card. Why do you need to resort to such childishness? Identify the issue, analyse it and deal with it. Why is it so difficult for women to acknowledge the harm they commit against children?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RtpIZvm_Eo

          • expect_resistance

            Sure I want MRA and anti-choice stalkers who frequent this site to be able to track me down. I’m easy to find and not stupid enough to be found.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What are you afraid of?

          • expect_resistance

            You are clueless.

          • Chris Smith

            Not before I pee in your cereal.

          • expect_resistance

            I don’t eat cereal.

        • fiona64

          I’m sure you find it very comforting to tell yourself that fairytale, sweetie.

      • expect_resistance

        So true.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      I have a mouse. Does that count?

      • expect_resistance

        Is your avatar photo a field mouse? It sort of looks like a flying squirrel on my phone.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          I dunno. It looks like both that’s true. I think it’s just a stylized interpretation of a mouse.

    • A. T.

      lolol. Baby trolls are so cute.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Again, a condescending demeaning sentiment towards a male who dares to speak in the presence of women, about men’s issues.

        • A. T.

          Says the man calling people Princess and more, who is defending a demeaning comment just to heighten the level of irony times ten. I’m not sure why I am supposed to be impressed with your opinion on these topics when you cannot even pretend to take your own advice.

          Don’t defend what you complain about and you might have a point.

    • expect_resistance

      I have two cats and a man. Is there a problem with that? Do you hate cats? Do you hate men?

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You speak as if your cat and man were your exclusive possessions.

        • expect_resistance

          My husband is my partner in life and my cats are awesome little furry creatures. I am truly blessed.

    • Shan

      Fuck. Nobody EVER gave me a card. I’m SO pissed.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Maybe you were red carded?

  • A. T.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/understanding-the-dumb-choices-women-make/

    The “primal forces” that motivate women relate principally to resistance to change, narcissism and fear… for example, fear of being left on the shelf, fear of not finding a provider to provide for her, fear of novelty and fear of the unknown.

    • Shan

      You’re putting me off my dinner, AT….

      • A. T.

        ..Sorry. ._. I won’t do anymore. I was bad. *puts self in the corner*

        • Shan

          LOL! Carry on. Dinner was acquired and consumed by all without mishap.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      Let me finish off that quote mine for you A.T.
      “…David DeAngelo tells us that attraction isn’t a choice,
      and on this, we can only concur. The thing that excites women about
      dominant men does not relate to anything as calculated as guaranteeing
      offspring with lots of resources. That’s nonsense. While women are
      attracted to power and success, they are never attracted to
      plodding providers. And you only have to look at women’s dumb choices to
      realize that if we left it up to them, the next generation would be
      swinging from tree to tree. What excites women about dominant
      men has less to do with the banal priorities of being provided for than
      it does with the simple exhilaration of narcissism, novelty and danger.
      Being provided for is extremely important to women, it is even a
      priority, but it is not primal. It does not account for when women
      throw caution to the wind. It does not explain why women’s menageries of
      mediocrity typically include thugs, slobs and losers.”
      Just to keep you honest about things. No harm in providing the whole paragraph is there?

      • fiona64

        Thanks for proving A.T.’s point so well by including the rest of your “I’m a nice guy, why can’t I get laid” drivel …

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Did I say that fiona?
          Don’t project your sexual dissatisfaction upon me.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Why do feminists need to always end up resorting to sexually shaming men?

          • A. T.

            You ignore the part that degraded women and respond to that. Cute.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Tough to follow this thread, contorted to near incomprehensibility. I advocate for the rights of children and families. I frown on men, women and children being degraded. Currently there is little to nothing that address the degradation of men and boys. All efforts are cast towards girls and women. Where is the balance?

          • A. T.

            That’s not a reason to ignore it when it’s right in front of you.

            However, I’m happy to agree men and boys shouldn’t be degraded, at all.

            Balance is good, no issues with fighting for that and basic respect for all either.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Aren’t you the one rambling all over this thread about women’s panties?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No I am not, just about your mood.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Again, you are the only one talking about strange women’s panties. And strange women’s sex lives. You are the only one upset that women have abortions and get pregnant without your consent. You have been stomping your feet like an infant child all over this thread. My mood is fine- you’re the one who seems to be upset.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your intellectual mannerism is appalling, exuding moot rhetoric.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? It’s like watching a room full of two-year-olds in a snit.

          • Shan

            Not always. But when it happens, it’s probably because guys like Dannyboy keep insisting on defining it that way. “Women like to fuck rich, dominant men. And they like to fuck men who just like to fuck women.”

            Oops, women like to fuck, too. So what? Don’t shame women for that. We’ve been shamed for liking sex all our lives. Men like to fuck, too, but they’re not shamed for it, culturally.

            And so you’re not “her” type? Find one whose type you ARE. It’s not that difficult. Jeez.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I was referring to attacking men with, you are not a man, you cant’t get laid etc. Yeah, I know both men and women like to have sex. I would say women more than men, but women will not admit it.

          • Shan

            “Yeah, I know both men and women like to have sex. I would say women more than men, but women will not admit it.”

            TMI, man.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not if you want flesh it out thoroughly.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Whoops is my name on that article? I did provide the whole paragraph but that is not my work.
            Jumping to conclusions and engaging in prejudices.
            You truly are a feminist aren’t you.

          • A. T.

            You’re defending that article. You don’t exactly have stones to throw here.

            Edit: Unless that copy and paste was a disavowal of the premise?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Care to show where I said I agree with it in part or wholly?

          • A. T.

            Nah. This was my bad. I assumed the copy and paste was defending the article, but it could have been a broader defense of AVFM.

            I’m still confused as to why you thought it made it better. >_o

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Having the whole paragraph out there for all to digest and consider is better than having a couple of quote mined sentences.

            The author is examining women’s primal sexual desires. You know those same primal desires which catapulted convicted criminal Jeremy Meeks (who was arrested on weapons and gang related charges) into internet fame and had women drooling all over his mug shot.
            I remember in the comments under his pic from women stating something along the lines of ‘he can rape me anytime’ ‘he can break into my house and we could have fun’ etc.

            Why would you as a feminist choose to ignore this phenomena, which some would argue its a bad thing, of female sexuality / primal desires?
            Open honest examination of issues is always, best despite feminism not wanting it.

          • A. T.

            ‘Narcissism is a primal drive’. Unless you’re stating that’s AVFM’s view of men (and it might be, you might be more cynical than I know) ….yeah.

            And Jeremy Meeks, the female version was already done, by men. You realize that, yes? This is not limited to a sex, whether or not you feel aspects of it are shaped by sex differences. Here’s the female version, by the way: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hot-mugshot-woman-sues-website-booking-pic-permission-ads-article-1.1706608

            She launched a thousand memes and men made comments. What does that said about male desires? The primal male? Will there be an article about it?

            I don’t think sexuality is bad. I think that paints it in a negative light possible and continues in the usual AVFM vein of ‘what women are like’. If you note the title ‘explaining women’s dumb choices’? Yeah.

            I’m going to guess when it’s discussion on AVFM, there’s a reason for men’s choices and the language is different- though I’m willing to go research that before I claim it. I’ve haven’t read AVFM’s articles on male sexuality.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            AVFM posts article from many different points of view.
            Some are agreeable to the majority of readers, some are not.

            Umm you do realize the woman you use as an example was busted for a drinking and driving charge right?
            Not violent weapons and gang related charges like Meeks.
            So your attempt to draw a parallel fails.
            Try and compare a female who has been arrested on gang and weapon charges to a male arrested on gang and weapon charges.
            That would be apples to apples and oranges to oranges comparison.

            You do realize feminism has been telling us what men are like for over 50 years right?
            Equality A.T., it doesn’t seem like you are enjoying it, but its what feminism claims its all about.
            Are you sure your a feminist A.T.?
            Titles are meant to be provocative, gets people to read.

          • A. T.

            That was a neat sidestep.

            My point was that a similar phenomena had happened involving men and a women’s mugshot and men choosing an unwise focus for their desire given that she was a drunk driving mother of small children, unless you consider this a sign of common sense and good taste? People ignored the reality to focus on attractiveness.

            I don’t want men to be told negative crap so that is not and wasn’t some victory for me. Why would it be? I don’t want anyone to be treated badly, even MRAs. I know that’s a really crazy concept for you. But I’m weird like that. I like the whole ‘men and women treating each other with respect thing’.

            The problem is, again, your negative ones are about women and feminists and women. So I can’t even go ‘it’s just feminists’. But yes, you’re not the only site that does that.

            And we probably won’t agree. I’ll want people to be good to each other and you’ll go ‘no’.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Was no side step.
            You attempted to compare a criminal with no violent history to one who has a violent criminal history.
            Your assuming quite a bit on her background suggest you double check your facts.
            The fact that the charge was dropped to reckless driving (which is what her conviction was) suggests her intoxication level might have been borderline.
            And getting charged with a DUI is not indicative of violence, unlike you know weapons and gang charges.

            If you don’t want men to be told negative crap then you need to take that one up with feminism. However idiots need to be called out for being idiots regardless of sex.
            And ideologies need to be called out for their idiocy too. Regardless of its name or dictionary definition which may or may not correspond to its actions.
            You know nothing of what I consider to be a crazy concept, pure speculation on your part.
            Feminists get respect when they show respect. You’ve shown yourself to be respectful to others and have been shown respect back.
            Will point back to your speculation mentioned earlier to remind you.
            Your assuming my views of women are the same as my views on an ideology called feminism.
            And I’m sorry but men and women deserve honest criticism, bad apples in every bunch as the saying goes.

            You may very well want what you claim, its the ideology of feminism that doesn’t.

          • A. T.

            I meant the first piece. It’s a way to say ‘we don’t agree, we’re just publishing it’. The problem is that logic dictates you don’t publish things you’re radically opposed to. You’re not publishing Jessica Valenti or Amanda Marcotte. You’re publishing things that at least fit in your world view, even if you’re not cosigning it. You expect a portion of people to agree with, perhaps quite a few.

            She’s a single mother with four kids and was in for drunk driving. I may have gotten the number of kids wrong, but the larger point was that people didn’t care about those factors compared to her hot picture. The same the thing that happened with Mr. Meeks. And aside from a few individuals with less than ideal mental health, most people just enjoyed the view. I don’t think the men that sent her proposals represent the majority of men: Do you? Do you think that they are a statement on men? (Again, I don’t think it’s a statement on men.)

            I’m usually having to yell at men and women re: Islamophobia or racism, but when relevant, I defend men too. I’ve had men are awesome conversations. More than once, whether you care to believe that or no.

            Again, if you’re not being abusive, I don’t care and I don’t mean that in the bad way. I mean, i’d rather you like feminism, but I know it’s not perfect.

            Re: Crazy concepts- I meant more broadly. I do get the need to defend yourself. If someone’s being awful to you, it’s normally get to get less nice. I’m not above this, though I try to be decent.

            It’s the parts directed very clearly toward woman at AVFM that I take issue with. But you either support those or not. I’m going to hope for ‘not’ and that it’s feminism you object to on the deeper level. I don’t think you control that material anyway.

            We have different ideas of what honest means, is all.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I never said one way or the other. I could agree with part of, none of, or the whole article.
            If you figure any of those feminists would submit and article to AVFM have at it I say. However I am fairly sure that won;t happen. Hell they won’t even engage in debates. Feminists have been invited many times and all we hear back from them is crickets.
            Recently at Queens University the feminists tried to block non-feminists from attending.
            Is this indicative of being interested in an open honest discussion about the issues society faces?
            You go ahead and ask those feminists you listed if they’d be interested in submitting an article go ahead I dare you but don;t be surprised when they turn around and attack you for asking.
            Yes she is a single mother who made a mistake. A non-violent mistake while Meeks made some violent mistakes.
            See the difference yet?
            Meeks has children too btw so there goes that point you tried to make.
            Meh been doing what you’ve been doing for over 20 years, I see the comment was deleted but remember your talking to a former union shop steward and former feminist.
            Feminism has poisoned its well via its actions and I suspect will be looked upon by future generations as just another ism like racism, sexism, fascism etc. So me liking feminism aint going to happen.

            Again you have my respect, I can be a bit snarky.

            Some women and some men need a written slap on the wrist. We can’t be turning a blind eye to asshats.

            Some articles are meant to be provocative, they get people’s attention and help the non-feminists numbers grow.

          • Shan

            “If you’d like to pen a piece about attractions to ‘sick individuals’ I’d like to see it”

            Maybe that’s an article YOU should write.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I’ve written about sick individuals known as feminists before.
            Big Red comes to mind.

          • Shan

            Yah. No stones.

          • fiona64

            Don’t project your sexual dissatisfaction upon me.

            I’m sorry, sweetie, didn’t I already explain to you that I’m only attracted to men? You don’t qualify.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You’ve explained nothing, you have proclaimed your sexual dysfunction though.

          • fiona64

            You’re a funny little boy, that’s for sure.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            What is your fixation with little boys fiona?
            You might want to see a therapist regarding that..

          • fiona64

            I just keep laughing at your absurdity … and you just keep giving me reasons to do so. Thanks, little Danny!

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So your arguments and positions are based on insults.
            No wonder feminism is on life support.
            Thanks for all your help fiona.

      • A. T.

        You actually made it worse. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? I’m betting ‘no’.

        And that doesn’t ‘narcissism’ as a main drive either.

        But please, tell me how you respect us.

        • Shan

          Ooops, just lost my dinner.

          Not your fault, AT.

          • A. T.

            ._. *offers cool water*

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          He doesn’t realize it. That’s the joy of MRA’s opening their mouths thinking they’re making it better or clearer so your poor ladybrain rationalization hamster can understand it.

          I just love to let them keep talking.

          • A. T.

            *beats head against wall* I realize now, they think a) this stuff really isn’t offensive, b) it’s accurate and c) context makes it better.

            No. No, hell no, and no.

  • sé do bheatha a bhaile

    Listen up: we hate feminism, which is an ideology, not women. Saying there is no difference between the two is like saying their is no difference between men and sports. Yes, men do feel marginalized. They feel marginalized because they are. A male student on campus realizes there is an entire faculty which examines women’s roles and questions them, and then explores the options. He then sees that said department teaches it’s young women that men are the source of their problems. This young man will soon discover that questioning this doctrine is forbidden – violently – as the Warren Farrell protest at the university of Toronto dem

    • Auntie Alias

      AVFM regularly publishes hatred against women.

      There was no violence at the UofT.

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        There was no physical violence, but there was both verbal and psychological violence deployed. Hey, if brushing up against a woman’s thigh is now sexual assault, fuck it, yelling at me is now violence.

        • Auntie Alias

          That’s quite an elastic definition.

    • A. T.

      As Auntie noted, that does not require AVFM to publish the articles it does. Or talk about women the way it does. I’ve linked several articles. You’re welcome to explain how degrading women is a necessary part of the your ‘civil rights movement’, when you just objected to it in a Woman’s Studies course.

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        I’ll be civilized this time because admittedly my previous comments were rage-filled. The articles themselves and their content are secondary to it’s primary purpose, which is to get noticed by any ( non-violent) means necessary. Once people arrive at the site they can then judge for themselves if the website has any merit.

        Men have issues, but the entire culture, including women, are complicit in their denial. Don’t you wonder why those articles degrade women? You think there is no reason? That’s it’s just irrational misogyny? You don’t think men having to pay ex wives child support after a unilateral divorce is grounds for bitterness and anger? There are literally millions of these kinds of men. The culture is so twisted that women are not held to account. How sick is that? But that’s not all. It gets worse. Now all heterosexual sex is rape by default, because rape now no longer must meet any objective criteria; it’s what a woman says, period. If she is satisfied with the experience, it was sex. If she was dissatisfied, it was rape. Wait, there is more: most studies have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that within abusive relationships, women initiate just as much violence as men. Interpersonal violence – kicking, slapping, punching – is reciprocal. But we have a sexist “violence against women” act which enforces primary aggressor laws against men, meaning that whenever the police are called in a domestic violence dispute, the man is automatically arrested.

        I could go on and on but women, mostly feminists, are waging a war on men, and we are fighting back.

        • A. T.

          I’m less impressed when talented writers have and do make themselves known by other means. Even if we argue it was necessary to for attention, it still showed in the comments section and obviously attracted people that shared some of those beliefs. It’s not ‘just’ people that know it’s satire. It’s also a large share of the articles or was in years’ past. Unless that suddenly changed, complaining about feminists and women was a large portion of the articles offered.

          It is true that men have issues that are ignored and that people, including women and feminists have at time been complicit. Two things going here, I’ll address that bit first. Child support should be about the kids. If they are his or her’s, I think the parent should support them. Bias in the custody court’s where it’s happening and not being able to see one’s children or misuse of funds should be addressed. As should any child support payment’s so heavy they cripple a man. The system needs reworking, certainly.

          I consider false allegations to be a crime. If a man or women rapes somebody, they’re accountable. If someone truly (after having consented) just went ‘hey, you made me’, it’s either a crime or severe mental illness and needs to be addressed with equal seriousness. This is not generally what I hear men and women reporting rape to have said though, nor to the vast majority of people that report go near the police.

          Yes. Women’s violence has been and is under recognized and not taken seriously. This needs to change and men need more protection and support. I’m a little more leery of ‘reciprocal’, because I’ve seen too many abusers of *both* genders lie and they will lie.

          And the man automatically being arrested is not true, even with the bias. Look up the mandatory arrest statistics.

          You realize in charge of these programs and the government that fund them are men? And that even with the feminist cabal you think exists, there are men and others involved? It is not nearly as one sided as you think. The defunded schools and lack of resources that hurt boys? Cannot be blamed neatly on feminists. The severely unfunded US mental health system? That is not the fault of feminists. You don’t see the forest for the trees when you see ‘one’ enemy, especially as feminists would like mental health reform.

          Lastly, is people being unfair or wrong a right to degrade them? This was the theory or at least the hurt/anger behind the early 1st wave feminists and the worst of their writing. Do you think that was justified? I’ve worked with many women that have been horribly hurt. Do they get a pass on degrading men? Are we all going to get into a big circle where we hurt and abuse each other more and more?

          I’m not sure what you think that solves or where you think it ends. The 1st wave feminists comments certainly didn’t mend relationships with men, did they?

          • Shan

            “Are we all going to get into a big circle where we hurt and abuse each other more and more?”

            I hearts me some A.T.

          • A. T.

            Aw. ;_; <3

    • Shan

      “They feel marginalized because they are. A male student on campus
      realizes there is an entire faculty which examines women’s roles and
      questions them, and then explores the options.”

      Boo fucking hoo. Women have been marginalized for millennia and weren’t even ADMITTED to institutions of higher education until the past century or so. You think it’s all weird and suddenly anti-male that these institutions are trying to find a way to deal with what’s basically a sudden culture change? FFS. Being “marginalized” is not the same as realizing “Oh, FUCK, I’m not the only one HERE anymore?!”

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        Oh shut the fuck up, bitch. Marginalized for millennia my ass. You were protected for millennia you fucking asswipe. And read your fucking history: upper class women accessed higher education BEFORE lower class men. So STFU. If you were in front of me right now I’d slap the piss out of you. Women were never oppressed – ever. Check out Girl Writes What on YouTube. Watch and learn, cupcake.

        • kitler

          Someone’s panties are all in a bunch.

        • A. T.

          ..I was going to feel bad about my MGTOW remark and take it back, but I really think that is safer for all involved. You seem rather unsafe.

        • A. T.

          http://www.snolabor.org/pages/textile.htm Look at these sheltered little girls and boys. Sheltered into working all day with no child labor laws. Neat! Or

          http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/homework/victorians/children/working.htm More sheltering for girls and boys.

          Do you want some modern examples? Further back?

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Snohomish County. It’s a small world. But I don’t know your point. Yes, children didn’t have a childhood back then. Your point?

          • A. T.

            Men and women were both disposable at various points. Those protect women? Those are often white and middle or upper class. It wasn’t the those girls in cotton mills, orphanages or dying in the streets.

            It’s not the girls in child labor now, for that matter.

            Your history and apparently GWW’s, is inaccurate if you think men are the only disposable ones. People have always been disposable, it’s simply a matter of ‘who’.

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Yes I agree with that. Here is how this whole avfm thing works out: there is a lot of blame heaped on feminism there. It’s a racket, it’s deliberate policy of avfm staff to do that because it gins up men’s passions. There is much I personally dislike about feminism, particularly one woman who told me tonight that women were marginalized “for millennia”. What’s truly sick is that many women believe this. But according to anthropology, clearly differentiated sex roles is what led us – Homo sapiens – to surpass Neanderthals. Clearly feminism is self-absorbed. But I don’t heap all the blame on feminism; men also are to blame for passively accepting their new “dudebro” status. It’s learned helplessness, both sad and funny. But mostly sad.

        • Shan

          Wow. There it all is, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, in all its visceral puked-up-whole-and-steaming glory: Women were never oppressed, never threatened with having the piss slapped out of them. Nothing like that. Because upper-class WOMEN supposedly got privileges before lower-class MEN did.

          Remind me again who got the right to vote first in the US after the white man?

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Black men.

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Black men.

  • McLargehuge510

    Anyone notice here how there are barely ANY words dedicated to speaking about the actual conference, its reputable speakers, the points made, or the goals of the movement? Notice how the citations are mostly from we Hunted the Mammoth…sigh…why am I even surprised? Couldn’t muster up the strength to get the original sources, eh? Still trying desperately to equate Elliot Roger with MRA’s and their stances, eh?

    Hey why not get a quote from the National Enquirer as a source on this one too Alex? I am disappoint. Because “Alex DiBranco is a PhD Student in Sociology at Yale, studying social movements and the U.S. Christian Right” we should totally be expecting a non-biased, integrity based, and fact driven article free of throat jammed opinions…oh wait…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKBHd0LIfHk&list=PLHLREeMe4S0OmV_BYAfWNWi0qQzu2FWzK

    That link above is a playlist of the majority of the speakers, panels, and a full 10 hour video of the entire Day 2 of the Conference. You can let liars and deflectors like Alex DiBracno continue to take advantage for you, or you can watch for yourself and make up your own mind about how horrifying these men’s rights activists are

    • Auntie Alias

      “its reputable speakers”???

      • Chris Smith

        Yes

      • A. T.

        Ah ha ha ha ha.

      • McLargehuge510

        This should start you off, and there’s more where that came from. Once again, playlist is above in my previous post. No need to read about it, when you can see it.

        Dr. Warren Farrell, PH. D.

        Erin Pizzey

        Senator Anne Cools

        Dr. Tara Palmatier

        Barbara Kay

        Tom Golden, LCSW

        Karen Straughan

        Terrance Popp

        Stephan Molyneux

        Dr. Miles Groth

        • Auntie Alias

          I’m quite familiar with the speakers (except Gross and Popp) and what some of them said, thankyouverymuch. If that’s you’re all-star lineup, good grief.

          Do you really think linking to that hatefest is going to change hearts and minds? Didn’t the MSM reception tip you off that maybe the message isn’t resonating with people? I would hope there’s a point where you have to stop and wonder why they’re ALL against you. It can’t all be dismissed as the eeeevil gynocracy forever except through wilful blindness.

          • McLargehuge510

            You’ve just proven your own bigotry and willful ignorance by refusing to watch a conference of 250+ attendees (not the mere over 100 purported by the great Alex) yourself and gather your own opinions.

            The only thing proven was your ability to listen only to what you want to hear. You, just like Alex, are obviously scared of potentially agreeing with a differing perspective, so you can blithely label it hate and stay secure in the status quo like good little fascists.

            If you were actually aware of the prominence of these speaker’s, what they stand for, and what they’ve fought to accomplish, I doubt you would have such a sarcastic response.

          • fiona64

            Ooh … you managed to gather 250 pissed-off white dudes. That’s just … massive!

          • McLargehuge510

            All races, both genders, and yes anger at the system and society certainly brought them there to calmly and diplomatically discuss solutions to radical ideology that poisons real life legal systems. Your condescending statements just further resonate how necessary this dialog is.

            And just in case you want to further question their validity. You, Auntie Alias, and Alex should know Terrance Popp is a 20 year and 2 time purple heart decorated veteran who had the pleasure of coming home from active duty to divorce papers, his children taken away and alienated from him, and all of his assets including his home stripped from him as well, as child support payments to make.

            He nearly committed suicide after he had been cast out of his family and home to sleep in his car by the system he supposedly fought to protect. So yeah…that conference of hate mongerers, in their complete lack of sympathy, held a conference to discuss how and why he, and countless other men, ended up in such a situation. But the conference wasn’t exclusively about you, so I guess, it really is hate after all right?

          • A. T.

            God. The divorce rate and the flaws in the system for veteran healthcare and support is horrible.

          • Shan

            True, that. The system fucks men over, too, but men like these don’t blame the system, they blame feminists who are fighting it and the women who are just as fucked over by it as men are. It makes no sense.

            I mean, really. Patriarchy has been in place for HOW many thousands of years? As a concept, feminimsm has been here a relatively short time. Less than a couple of hundred years. And legally, an even shorter amount of time. So the legal remedies are hardly going to be ideal straight out of the gate. That doesn’t mean we have to be at each other’s throats. We’ll never figure it out that way.

          • Auntie Alias

            I watched his video so I knew he was a vet. It was powerful. I mean the video that won an award. I didn’t watch his conference presentation.

          • McLargehuge510

            Well if it was so powerful than why do you insist on ignoring people who may be providing solutions, starting discussions, and reveal potentially more shocking information you wouldn’t have known simply because people tell you it is hateful and not to watch. You don’t have to be afraid. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose by simply taking a look at some presentations.

          • Auntie Alias

            I plan to but I’ll never change my mind about AVFM and similar groups.

          • McLargehuge510

            Well I find that very ironic considering they create the platform to host presentations that you may find interesting and educating…but to each his own I suppose. As long as you give the material a legit chance.

          • A. T.

            We can look up Molyneux up and know he is hateful. You’d do better to stop denying reality and our intelligence and point out the good instead. ‘This has some things you may not agree with, it also has this and this is amazing.’

          • expect_resistance

            I know they would be proud of 250 *eyeroll* . I’ve gathered more people for that for a Take back the night rally with very little resources.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Take back the night from who, the boogie man?

          • A. T.

            Vampires. Damn Santa Clara.

          • expect_resistance

            Look up Take Back The Night protests. I’m to tired to explain it now maybe later.

          • wakjob

            You can’t take back what you never had.

          • expect_resistance

            Seriously piss off.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Thank you moderator for removing my comment.

          • expect_resistance

            Then don’t post stupid sexists comments.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            If there were 250,000 in attendance, you would still downplay it in miserable tone.

          • expect_resistance

            But that’s a fantasy because it was 250. That is nothing to brag about.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’ve seen more pissed off white dudes in one place in a law school class.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes and yes :)

          • Auntie Alias

            It’s sure funny that the media pegged attendance at less