Men’s Rights Conference Host Says Women Who Drink and Dance Are ‘Begging’ for Rape


Cross-posted with permission from Political Research Associates.

A recent USA Today article on the inaugural conference for men’s rights activists (MRAs) asked whether it marked “A kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars.” In May, Elliot Rodger killed six people after regularly posting misogynistic rants against the “oppressive feminist system,” and a video warning, “If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you.”

In the intervening time, the First Inaugural Conference for Men’s Issues, hosted by A Voice for Men, faced a successful campaign asking Detroit’s Hilton DoubleTree hotel to cancel the event. The petition, which obtained close to 6,000 signatures, pointed out that MRAs were designated a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center in 2012. It continued, “MRAs are linked to the recent mass shooting in UCSB, wherein a young man declared that he would exact revenge on all the women who had rejected him. MRAs are linked to false rape statistics, further perpetuating the dangerous myth that women, ‘make it up for attention.’ MRAs are linked to threats of rape and murder against women who dare to speak out against them.”

Jaclyn Friedman writes in “A Look Inside The Men’s Rights Movement”: “One of their tactics is to put out a cash bounty for personal information—including home addresses, places of employment, email addresses, and phone numbers—of feminists who upset them. The deluge of hate mail, rape and death threats for those on the receiving end of these witch hunts is hard to describe.”

After news outlets connected Rodger to groups in the MRA sphere, Paul Elam, founder of A Voice for Men, asserted that his organization is committed to nonviolence and that Rodger was not a member. However, Katie McDonough writes at Salon that “until the moment that he is alleged to have killed six women and men, Elliot Rodger was every bit the same as the other men who are defined by their resentment toward women and their sense of bitter victimization in the world.” While she deems it “irresponsible to lay this violence at the feet of the men’s rights activists with whom Rodger seemed to find support for his rage,” nonetheless it “denies reality to pretend that Rodger’s sense of masculine entitlement and views about women didn’t matter or somehow existed in a vacuum.” In 2009, another man who filled an online journal with misogynistic rants killed three women at a fitness center.

Former Political Research Associates researcher Chip Berlet has written extensively on how toxic rhetoric can feed violence, and the danger in viewing these perpetrators as mentally disturbed lone wolves. As Berlet said following the murder of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller, “[Right-wing pundits] are not legally culpable for the assassination of Dr. Tiller, but they must share some portion of moral responsibility for creating a dangerous environment.”

Moral Responsibility

While claiming to be a pacifist, Paul Elam has gloried in the idea of a judge who ruled against fathers being “doused with gasoline and set afire.” He opposes abortion (and, it seems, adoption and motherhood too) and wrote a Mother’s Day article saying, “If you have a vagina, the blood of all those children, who are abused far more at the hands of women than men, has stained your skin and caked around the cuticles of your fingers.” He further argued, “Progress for men will not be gained by debate, reason or typical channels of grievance … The progress we need will only be realized by inflicting enough pain on the agents of hate, in public view, that it literally shocks society out of its current coma.” Would the murders Elliot Rodger committed fit that vision of public shock?

Then there’s Elam’s 2010 post about women who go clubbing, accept drinks, make out, and enter a man’s apartment, who end up “victims” [quotation marks his] of rape. “In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED .. They are freaking begging for it. Damn near demanding it.”

The next paragraph goes on to claim that women get raped because they are stupid, arrogant, and narcissistic. The post was scrubbed from A Voice for Men’s website as of 2014, and Elam claims it was intended as satire on the impossibility of promoting self-protection without being accused of victim-blaming. The scrubbing of the post smacks of an attempt to clean up his image, as the organization attempts to mainstream itself to the public. Yet even the “satirical” message, if we take it as such, is that empty-headed women need to be informed by a man that they face risks and that the solution is for women to smarten up not address what Katie McDonough calls “toxic male entitlement.”

Other scheduled conference speakers have blamed women for the state of the world because they choose “fucking monsters” and “assholes” rather than “nice guys” (which we assume the male MRAs consider themselves); asserted that women are “demanding” desired violence with their behavior—what another speaker calls “consensual violence” (consent would be a negotiated BDSM situation, not domestic abuse); equated paying for dinner and not getting sex to “a male version of date rape”; and argued that when a woman’s “nonverbal ‘yeses’ … conflict with those verbal ‘noes,’ that the man not be put in jail for choosing the ‘yes’ over the ‘no.’”

Visiting A Voice for Men’s website today, the first thing I noticed was a speaker denouncing feminism as never about gender equality, but always about misandry and “blaming men.” According to MSNBC’s coverage, the first day of the conference was attended by over 100 participants, and focused on rants about the “evil empire” of feminism. Barbara Kay, a columnist for Canada’s National Post, claimed that rape on campus is nothing more than “buyer’s remorse” and rape culture a “baseless moral panic.” (Note: men’s rights activists include women; structural patriarchy and misogyny influence the beliefs of everyone.)

This is a kinder, gentler turn?

As Jaclyn Friedman writes, “you’ll find women (and, gasp!, even feminists) in leadership in most of the institutions actually working to make life safer for men. It’s feminists who fought a long and recently successful battle to ensure that male victims are included in the FBI’s definition of rape. … Feminists have ensured that, through the Violence Against Women Act that MRAs oppose, the overall rate of intimate partner violence in the U.S. declined 64 percent between 1994 and 2010, and that decline is distributed evenly between male and female victims.”

I was proud to be among those feminist women who worked on the campaign to improve the FBI definition of rape. In college, as a committed feminist, I took a course titled “The Masculine Mystique,” which analyzed the problems that a patriarchal, homophobic, violent system causes men, especially considering stereotypes against men of color and the disproportionate number of black men in prison (most egregiously for harmless drug offenses). An inclusive gender justice movement is already a part of the feminist sphere, and expanding as women and feminist gain more authority and ability to make change.

The men’s rights movement, with its history and present-day of virulent anti-woman and anti-feminist hate speech, is not the place to look for a “kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars.” Don’t be fooled by a single pragmatic attempt at portraying a more respectable image.

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  • fiona64

    The men’s rights movement, with its history and present-day of virulent
    anti-woman and anti-feminist hate speech, is not the place to look for a
    “kinder, gentler turn to the gender wars.” Don’t be fooled by a single
    pragmatic attempt at portraying a more respectable image.

    This, x 1000.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

      I love how “anti-woman” and “anti-feminist” get lumped together, even though the vast majority of women do not and never have identified as feminists–and even though there are plenty of examples of feminism failing to deliver on its promises to women, let alone men, and shuffling its own dirty under the rug.

      Mind you, if you asked any of us, you’d know that most of us don’t think feminism is the only problem; but as well-financed feminist institutions spread terrible information and terrible policies, while other “nice” feminists say nothing about it, well, someone’s got to challenge it.

      • goatini

        //the vast majority of women do not and never have identified as feminists//

        Dream on.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

          Huffington Post / YouGuv poll:

          http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabs_gender_0411122013.pdf

          77% of women do not identify as feminists.

          But most do believe in equal rights. So one possibility is that all these people (like me, or like Paul Elam) who believe in equal rights are feminists and just don’t understand the word. Or, there’s something wrong with feminism. I eventually decided the latter was the case, which is why I no longer identify as feminist.

          • goatini

            Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

          • Renaissance Man

            And anti-feminism is the radical notion that women are adults. What’s your point?

          • goatini

            As I attained majority at 18, have been working full-time for 40+ years, and am the breadwinner in my family, I am completely sure that you have no idea what you are talking about.

          • fiona64

            He’s just pissed because women are unimpressed by him.

          • Renaissance Man

            Here is Alison Tieman’s classic video series on this issue. The relevant point refers to agency and who is perceived as having it. BOTH feminists and conservative traditionalists portray women as objects that have things happen to them (media portrayals, education, etc) instead of fully capable moral and intellectual agents capable of making decisions themselves (a convenient way to dismiss women who have made choices feminists don’t agree with). https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJOWMtQBIv1sFM-u8FIKZxK0_AkoBzeCV

            In fact, Karen Straughn has pointed out this framing (of men acting on agentless women) dates back to Seneca Falls (i.e. there is no feminism without Patriarchy theory): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4j-H8oehFU

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Feminism is the notion that men are to blame for everything.

          • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

            You really need to get out more.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4LkrQCyIz8

            A woman saying yes to a date with a man is literally insane and ill-advised, and the whole species’ existence counts on them doing it. I don’t know how they…how do women still go out with guys, when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat to women. Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We’re the worst thing that ever happens to them. That’s true! You know what our number one threat is? Heart disease.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong!

          • wakjob

            the radical notion that women are victims of men, inherently, innately, eternally. No number of handicaps and accommodations can ever fully compensate them, but by all means keep trying.

          • Renaissance Man

            Anti-feminism is the radical notion that women are adults . . .

            (what is so offensive about that comment that you have to delete it, moderators?)

          • fiona64

            You’re funny, sweetie …

            You have taken a single study out of context … and neglected to include an important piece of the text, which stated that 94 percent of those polled believed that men and women should be social, political and economic equals. And guess what, Deano? That’s feminism.

            Paul Elam doesn’t believe in equal rights, BTW. He wants to return to the days when white men were in charge of everything, there was no such crime as marital rape, women and people of color knew their places, etc.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            No it’s not feminism. Feminism is a hate movement and doesn’t own the word ‘equality.’

          • fiona64

            Feminism is a hate movement

            Citation needed, from a reputable source.

            While we’re talking about hate movements, though:
            http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

          • wakjob

            I think you know it’s a little more specific than that. “A belief that men and women should be social, political and economic equals” is not the definition of feminism. The Men’s Human Rights Movement, by that definition is itself feminism. (Which is obviously BS) No, it is that stated belief standing atop the assumption, taken on faith, that men and women are not currently equal, men are advantaged, and men aim to keep it that way. Does it matter that 90% of the homeless are male? Nope. Women are still worse off, because they aren’t equally represented among CEOs.

          • fiona64

            It’s funny that you make up definitions to suit yourself but that have no basis in reality.

            Webster’s says this (which is exactly what I said):

            fem·i·nism
            ˈfeməˌnizəm/
            noun
            noun: feminism
            the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

            I’m sorry that you have trouble with this concept. Perhaps someone can help you.

          • Shan

            “Does it matter that 90% of the homeless are male?”

            Of course it does. Society has bad effects for both genders (and sometimes worse for trans-ones). It’s not the fault of women or feminism if 90% of homeless people are male.

          • DEDC

            It is not the fault of men or the non-existent Patriarchy if 99% of the women are not CEOs.

          • Shan

            And presuming that being a CEO should be the ultimate goal of humanity kind of underscores the fact that we DO live in a patriarchal culture.

          • DEDC

            “And presuming that being a CEO should be the ultimate goal of humanity
            kind of underscores the fact that we DO live in a patriarchal culture.”

            That what, feminism itself is also completely bitched-out to? What is with the quotas for women CEOs and politicians within femtardism then? And you were doing so well right up until those words ‘patriarchal culture’ (I actually agreed with you 100% up until then).

            Invoking faith-based non sequiturs has a way of keeping you in perpetual cognitive dissonance.

          • Shan

            “Invoking faith-based non sequiturs has a way of keeping you in perpetual cognitive dissonance.”

            Yeah, read that again. Several times.

          • DEDC

            OMG!

            You are right! All I had to do was read it over and over and now, The Hegemonic Patriarchy™ does indeed exist!

            As do pink unicorns. The Bible is true because it says it is!

            EPIC FAIL.

          • Shan

            Good job! Hodor Hodored again!

          • DEDC

            Referencing shit television literature can’t save your fails.

          • Shan

            Denying the existence of patriarchy doesn’t make it go away. Talk about an epic fail.

            Look, I acknowledge that my white privilege exists. I don’t freak out when I’m called on it. You don’t have to go LALALALALA about patriarchy just because you’re too scared to acknowledge your male privilege.

          • sputnik

            “… 94 percent of those polled believed that men and women should be social, political and economic equals. And guess what, Deano? That’s feminism.”

            That may be feminism on paper, but that’s not feminism in the outcome. (Something about equaltiy of outcomes comes to mind… But, no. Not going there.)

            “Paul Elam doesn’t believe in equal rights, BTW. He wants to return to the days when white men were in charge of everything,… ” etc.

            Reading comprehension, much?

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    Hmm

  • TheBrett

    I hate even dignifying them with the label they choose for themselves, “Men’s Rights Organizations”. That’s like calling the KKK a “white people advancement society”. They’re misogynistic hate groups that revel in attacks and terrorization of women and their allies who speak out against misogyny, domestic violence, and rape.

    Other scheduled
    conference speakers have blamed women for the state of the world
    because they choose “fucking monsters” and “assholes” rather than “nice
    guys” (which we assume the male MRAs consider themselves);

    Oh, this pisses me off so much. Speaking as a socially awkward guy myself who grew up with other friends and neighbors who were more socially well-adjusted, I have never heard this complaint from anyone like them, about how “all the womenz” are “going for assholes”. It’s always come from either other awkward guys or guys who were whiny assholes.

    • A. T.

      I was socially awkward in high school. Unlikely the idiots, I didn’t blame all men either.

      • Phil McCracken

        WAKE UP!!!! MEAN ARE PEOPLE TOO!!!!!!!!!!

    • Mike Brentnall

      Try not to be pissed off. Save your energy. Know about why one shouldn’t.
      Watch the videos recorded at the conference for yourself.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    I think people can read the website themselves young lady.

    For readers that can think for themselves see the link below.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/?s=SPLC

    • goatini

      //young lady//

      Aren’t we a condescending snot?

      • BelligerentBruncher

        When criticizing someone for being condescending, it’s probably not in your best interest to call someone a “snot.”

        Just saying.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

          LOL!

        • lady_black

          When someone is condescending, I call it like I see it. Deal with it, young man.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Do you think calling someone “young man” isn’t condescending, yet calling someone “young lady” is?

            There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance going on to justify that.

          • lady_black

            Yes it was condescending. And it was meant that way.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            That’s a peculiar flaw in logic when criticizing someone for being condescending.

            I suppose you’re free to do whatever you want…it just doesn’t make sense.

          • fiona64

            Poor, angry little Chris. Does your mommy know you’re playing on the computer again?

        • goatini

          Really? Gee, and I didn’t even use a sexist pejorative.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Don’t worry about.

            Lady_black covered for you while you were out.

          • goatini

            How nice of you to conflate us into one container.

      • expect_resistance

        I hate when they say that or the term “gals.” Like they can’t say women.

        • Auntie Alias

          Saying ‘women’ would suggest that we’re adult human beings. Can’t have that!!

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            What? You can be an adult female human being, a woman, and still be an idiot, by the way.

          • A. T.

            Says the person that reads AVFM. Mhm.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Says the person who works for AVfM, actually. And what I wrote is 100% logical and consistent. Your comeback, for want of a better description – is a complete non sequiter. Or, to put it in parlance that you might understand – lolz, fail.

          • A. T.

            No, that would explain it. It would explain quite a bit actually. I thought you were just a troll, but this is something else entirely, like Suz at the other thread or one of Dean’s appearances. At least I know what to expect. And hello there.

            And yes, I do appreciate your vocabulary, internet slang and otherwise.

          • fiona64

            non sequiter

            Non sequitur. If you don’t understand Latin, please don’t use it. Thanks in advance.

          • Auntie Alias

            About the only time AVFM uses the word ‘women’ is when they’re talking about women sympathetic to their cause. For everyone else, it’s slurs for the most part.

          • A. T.

            I really enjoyed Suz trying to explain to me how using various slurs was not degrading because AVFM only meant the *bad* women and some women like it anyway.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            There are nice women.
            There are good women.
            There are moral women.
            There are not so nice women.
            There are bad women.
            There are immoral women.
            Some of all of these women are MHRAs.
            Some of all these women are not MHRAs.

            I have no problem calling a woman a woman regardless of her position, or moral compass. To think otherwise is lunacy of the highest order.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            We know,

            adult human beings = grown up responsibility, that would fu*k femini$m

          • goatini

            Been working full time for 40 years, not sure what the hell you are talking about.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            not sure what the hell you are talking about

            and therein lies the problem…

  • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

    If you’re going to be a journalist – some pointers.

    1: Spelling – Learn to spell people’s names properly. The shooter to whom you refer is Elliot Rodger – not Rodgers.

    2: Research – AVfM were never designated a hate group by the SPLC. Arthur Goldwag himself has verified this. You either don’t know how to research or you are lying. Either way – you don’t look good as a result.

    3: Sources – David Futtrelle is not a reliable source – for anything. He is a discredited hack who has been repeatedly caught lying, exaggerating, and quote mining to cast aspersions about his opponents. He’s such a hack that he was single-handedly responsible for ABC 20/20 pulling their piece on the ‘manosphere’ last year because they used him as a source and later found out that his information was little more than cynical quote-mining; it was nonsense of the highest order. If you want to humiliate yourself by quoting this imbecile – go ahead. Or, you could try to be ethical.

    4: Tell the truth – you haven’t been doing a good job of this in your article. Try telling the truth more often. As difficult as it may seem and as much as it may clash with your preconceived notions – uncovering the truth is the raison d’etre for journalism. It should be a guiding star. You have no right to call yourself a journalist if you’re going to just sling around baseless insinuations and worse still – parrot tired, exhausted canards about the men’s movement. Many within the mainstream media are catching on to what we’re about and are seeing that what you portray is little more than mean-spirited lies. If you want to be taken seriously in future I would suggest that you look at what you’re doing more critically and realize that mud-slinging, particularly in an age where people are now able to discern truth from lies pretty easily, will send your career on a one-way trip to the sewer. If that’s the sort of journalist you want to be – I feel sorry for you.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

      Agree, just another useful bimbo.

  • Auntie Alias

    Thanks, Alex! I hope you’re not the subject of an attack piece on their site. They’re smearing journalists who wrote negative reviews of the conference. If you correspond with them by email, DO NOT include your telephone number or they’ll publish it online.

    It’s interesting that they invited the MSM to attend, convinced that once the world saw what their “issues” were, the public would embrace their ideas. Inevitably, that didn’t happen because their hate-filled diatribes repel decent people. Instead of learning from their mistakes, they go into attack mode in an attempt to discredit their critics.

    It’s all about money. AVFM incites hatred against women and feminists to keep the dollars rolling in from misogynists. They do nothing to address the issues they claim to care about.

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      Yawn. Boring. People can make up their own minds. They know how to use the internet. This stuff doesn’t work – except on idiots.

      • A. T.

        Like the ones that read AVFM and take it seriously? Yes.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        Shhhhh don’t let feminists know that people can use the internet. lol!

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

        Only journalists who lie get “attack pieces.” Of course, this post is full of lies, distortions, and half-truths, but I’m not sure it’s worth of an attack piece, though it’ll probably get a link in the hope that someone is interested in correcting the record.

        Anyone who wants to know the truth and can stomach the whole idea that someone might question feminist ideology and still have something of value to say knows where to find us.

        • fiona64

          Please cite any of the lies in this article and disprove them with citations from reputable sources.. I will wait.

          Thanks for admitting that you MRAssholes go after women who don’t bow down and worship you, though.

      • http://aimaiameye.blogspot.com/ Aimai

        So why are you wasting time posting here?

    • Renaissance Man

      Uh, not a hate piece. This ‘journalist’ did all of her research using materials from Elam’s ideological opponents, such as Jacklyn Friedman. Let me ask you this: would it make sense to write a piece on a Democratic policy initiative based solely on Republican talking points and conservative think tanks? Might be a little biased, huh? She makes a number of claims that are not backed up, such as the supposed “bounty” put out on feminists. Really? Since I have been following gender politics online, it has been the feminists that have doxed and harassed opponents, taking forum debates into the real world.

      • Auntie Alias

        Did you notice where she said she’d looked at AVFM herself? Just because she provides links to her readers doesn’t mean she relied on those links for her information.

        ” it has been the feminists that have doxed and harassed opponents”

        Who and when?

      • fiona64

        Since I have been following gender politics online, it has been the
        feminists that have doxed and harassed opponents, taking forum debates
        into the real world.</i.

        Citations needed.

  • BelligerentBruncher

    Alex, in terms of gender equality, why are the birth control methods that are used by women deemed to be required to be paid for by insurance under Obamacare, and the methods that are used by men (condoms) not?

    Why is the “Violence Against Women Act” still named that when it clearly isn’t a female only issue? I know the act offers some protection for men, but why keep the name?

    • lady_black

      So your complaints are semantic, and the fact that the ACA doesn’t cover non-prescription items. Hilarious. It doesn’t cover our tampons either.

      • BelligerentBruncher

        It doesn’t cover your tampons??? Well, then how in the world can you be expected to pay for that? I guess they’ll be a lot of women going without tampons because Uncle Sam isn’t willing to force insurance companies to pay for them.

        BTW, hormonal birth control should be OTC. But, then what would you be able to be outraged over?

        • lady_black

          I’m sure YOU think hormonal birth control should be OTC. That’s because you know nothing about it. And we could play shoulda-woulda-coulda all day long. Hormonal BC is NOT OTC, and IUDs never can be (some of which are hormonal as well). Neither can the diaphragm. The implants or the shots are hormonal birth control. Should women be trained in minor surgery to implant their own implants? Since what you say is impossible, perhaps you should have to go to a doctor and have your condoms prescribed for you. Would that suit you? No, I didn’t THINK so. Now shut up and sit down.

          • James Huff

            Spoken like a true Seneca Falls Woman. Feminists have been telling men to sit down and shut up since 1848.

          • expect_resistance

            Oh chill out she’s speaking to our resident teen troll.

          • lady_black

            He needs to sit down and shut up. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            ACOG agrees with me. Do you think that they also don’t know what they’re talking about?

            (I never mentioned implants, IUDs, diagpragms, etc, so why did you even bring it up?)

          • lady_black

            Dude… I already explained this to you and more than once. Go away.

          • BelligerentBruncher
        • Unicorn Farm

          ” I guess there will be a lot of women going without tampons because Uncle Sam isn’t willing to force insurance companies to pay for them.”
          Let me know when the first prescription tampon comes on the market.

          • Shan

            “Let me know when the first prescription tampon comes on the market.”

            My brain refuses to even contemplate conditions that would require a prescription tampon.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wise.

        • lady_black

          I will continue to pay for tampons, and you will continue to pay for condoms. Along with bandages, boo-boo creams, aspirin, Advil, vitamins and all other OTC items. By the way, condoms do not become a covered item when women pay for them.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Hormonal birth control should be OTC. I’m down with that.

          • lady_black

            That’s because you are IGNORANT. Hormonal birth control isn’t just “pills.” Let’s begin there with your ignorance. Do some research, come back prepared to discuss intelligently. Until then, I’ll be flagging you. Have a nice day.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Flagged for what exactly? I’m curious. Did I say something to offend you?

            And I have done a little research. The medical experts tend to agree with me that hormonal birth control should be OTC. I thought I’d throw that out there before you flag this comment.

          • A. T.

            Have you done research on the cost to Taxpayers of unplanned births? Or the cost save when birth control is provided? I’m going to bet ‘no’.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            We also need a male pill or similar.

          • lady_black

            A pill is probably an unrealistic concept. But they are testing an injection in India. I’m surprised you aren’t aware.

          • lady_black

            No the medical experts do NOT agree with you. I’ll confess, I haven’t flagged you personally as long as you are discussing reasonably. Let me straighten you out. ALL hormonal contraceptives can never be OTC. Some oral forms might be. But when you say “hormonal contraceptives” what you really mean are ORAL contraceptives, not “hormonal” contraceptives.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “No the medical experts do NOT agree with you.”

            Yes, ACOG, agrees with me. Last time I checked, they are medical experts who have spent their entire careers dealing with women’s reproductive health issues.

            http://www.acog.org/Resources_And_Publications/Committee_Opinions/Committee_on_Gynecologic_Practice/Over-the-Counter_Access_to_Oral_Contraceptives

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            You’re going to flag people because you feel that they don’t understand the myriad types of birth control? WTF?

          • lady_black

            Yes. This is a website for women’s reproductive health. Not for whining MRA types who don’t know the difference between a piece of latex and a prescription medication. Those who post here are expected to at least have some vague idea what they are talking about. That’s not too high an expectation. We have men who post here all the time. They aren’t allowed to be idiots, either.

          • fiona64

            This is the same idiot (5×5) who thought women placed their own IUDs.

          • Shan

            I can. I have three extra elbows.

          • lady_black

            You can’t disguise your ignorance by adding the word “pills” to your comment, after the fact. You should have left your comment as it was, and admitted your error.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            OMG first world problems.

          • lady_black

            I’m not the one calling it a problem. Address your comment to your fellow douche bag who doesn’t know that Planned Parenthood and state health departments hand out condoms by the dozens, paid for by the taxpayer.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Not everyone can use Planned Parenthood condoms. Men’s health isn’t “one size fits all.” I need the expensive kind.

            Any of those arguments sound vaguely familiar?

          • kitler

            Can the wrong size condom cause horrific side effects and nearly kill you?

          • lady_black

            Yeah, they are pretty much one size fits all. Unless you have a micropenis. Then you have more important issues than condoms. A condom can be rolled down over a man’s head. The BIG head, not the little one.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; Chris. I’m pretty sure that they will eventually make condoms small enough for you.

          • expect_resistance

            Nice one. I’m still laughing at the throwing the hot dog down the hallway thing that you said the other day.

          • fiona64

            I thought about mentioning finger cots but I didn’t want to confuse poor Chris up there. ;-)

        • A. T.
      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        He’s making the point that VAWA treats domestic violence as though it is a gendered issue when the reality is that it’s not. He’s not arguing from a semantic point of view. In fact as more research is done in this area, we’re seeing that women are actually more violent. Still no shelters for men though.

      • expect_resistance

        Sounds like 5×5 or chris or whoever the hell the teen basement troll is. He’s hung-up on OCT BC pills, “Obamacare” the term “cognitive dissonance”

        • fiona64

          It is 5×5. He outed himself in another thread with his usual nonsense about “have you started a foundation to help these women.”

          • expect_resistance

            I saw him at MJ and thought he would be back. *sigh* He really needs to get a life.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        Stop deleting my comments.

        • fiona64

          No one is deleting your comments except the moderators.

          • kitler

            My comments have been restored. The mod told me that they have a script running now.

    • kitler

      Condoms are OTC.

    • A. T.

      Happy to support discussion of condoms being added if it’s a genuine hardship for people, will direct you to evidence that paying for birth control saves taxpayer dollars. Millions. You do like saving money, yes?

  • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

    So you deleted my comment in which I was critical of your article. Pathetic.

    • lady_black

      Gee, I certainly hope so. But not because you were critical, but because you violated the TOS.

      • BelligerentBruncher

        How did he violate TOS? By disagreeing with the author and pointing out specifics on how her article is filled with errors?

        • lady_black

          Well, as his comment was deleted, I’ll never know, will I?

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            So I violated the TOS but you don’t know how. Sure. We’ll all swallow that.

          • lady_black

            I’m not a moderator. Maybe the one who deleted your comment will explain it to you.

        • goatini

          The definition of “error” is NOT “I don’t agree with the fact presented”.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        At least you corrected the spelling error. I’ll give you that. But stop spreading bull about AVfM – are you going to correct the mistruth in your article where you claim that the SPLC called AVfM a hate group? That’s not true and never has been – and that’s what happens when you use crappy sources like Manboobz. Is it that you don’t know, don’t care, or are so driven by ideology that truth and ethics don’t matter to you?

        • lady_black

          I corrected no spelling error. And no, I am so driven by truth and ethics that your ideology doesn’t matter to me. As usual, you got it backwards.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Well – someone corrected the error. I don’t have an ideology, by the way. Your article is full of mistruths. You’re linking a sociopathic killer with our movement because it suits your feminist ideology. Elliot Rodger was not an MHRA. He never visited MHRA websites. We support the rights of men and boys and fight on those issues. Elliot Rodger was a guy who visited some PUA sites and then becamse an anti-PUA. PUA sites, from what I understand, are about teaching guys who aren’t successful with women how to be successful. Frankly, I find the enterprise to be pathetic and so do many in the MHRM. We focus on actual issues such as divorce, suicide, sexual assault, domestic violence, forced genital cutting, homelessness, and many others. None of those issues have anything to do with picking up women. Nothing whatsoever – but people like you are desperate to find some link that you can create so you can label us as dangerous.

            That’s pathetic.

            That’s untruthful.

            That’s what you’re doing.

          • kitler

            I’ve read AVFM.
            Many of the posters sound like sociopaths

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Nonsense. You don’t even know what a sociopath is.

          • kitler

            I’ve seen evangelical woman haters who stated that the only good woman is one who is barefoot and pregnant welcomed at avfm with open arms.

          • lady_black

            I do. And the other poster is correct.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Why are you like this? Your article is full of lies – and you know that it is! Who are you trying to convince?

          • lady_black

            Not my article.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            I’ve read AVFM.

            No you have not.

          • kitler

            Yes, I have.

          • goatini

            Yes, we have.

          • A. T.

            They leave up fun posts discussing domestic violence as an option toward women and women’s general inferiority. I’ve collected screenshots. This may or may not have changed as they cleaned up their image.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Quiet you silly bimbo!

          • A. T.

            :) Nope.

          • lady_black

            Nope, and flagged.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan
          • lady_black

            Have you seen the guys who post on PUA sites? They couldn’t snag any tail in a women’s prison. They are confidence men, taking the money of the gullible. Want women to like you? Take a shower, wash your hair, put on some deodorant and forget about so-called “game.” Games are for children. Act like a human fucking being, don’t set your sights too high and I guarantee you there is a woman out there for you.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            What’s a PUA?

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            I’ve never visited a PUA site so I can’t answer your question in a substantial way. I do know about them though and it all seems a bit odd to me – and I agree with you on your assessment. But that’s probably because I’ve never had any difficulty engaging with women. You’re right – treat them like human beings; women are human beings, after all. I’ve no problem with guys and gals sleeping around or doing whatever but that was never really my thing. In any case, I’m pretty happy in my relationship right now thanks – don’t need to look ‘out there.’

          • A. T.

            We played a game on Twitter- did Elliot Rodger say it or did AVFM? It was closer than you’d like in some cases. Women are the gateway to sex and more.

            But yes, he was into anti-PUA and not the MRM.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            lady_black acts like she owns this site, but I don’t think she wrote the article and I don’t think that she is an editor.

          • lady_black

            LOL. I already SAID that I’m not a moderator. But I am a member, and you aren’t.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            How do I become a member?

          • lady_black

            Never by suggesting that women cannot pay for their own tampons. Pro tip.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            I was making fun of the often repeated concept that if health insurance isn’t paying for something (a la Hobby Lobby birth control debacle) then women aren’t going to have “access” to it.

            It’s a farce. I don’t know any woman that would be dumb enough to simply stop taking birth control and therefore place herself at risk for much more expensive things (pregnancy, abortions, etc.) I don’t think women are that stupid.

          • expect_resistance

            By not being a troll.

          • Auntie Alias

            “We focus on actual issues such as divorce, suicide, sexual assault, domestic violence, forced genital cutting, homelessness, and many others.”

            You don’t DO anything about them. You just complain and blame women and/or feminists for every single one of those. Where was the MRM when Earl Silverman needed money to keep his men’s DV shelter afloat? Are there any links on the site to resources for men? I mean besides the dubious Dr. Tara.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            I keep hearing this and keep responding to it – we do plenty. We help guys in a lot of ways – but our main remit is in DRAWING ATTENTION TO THE ISSUES. Don’t worry – we’re just getting started. We’re getting bigger and bigger and moving into new areas every day. You want us to do something? Don’t worry.

          • Auntie Alias

            It seems bass-ackwards to me. Doing something concrete would draw attention to the issues more effectively than raging about women and feminists on the internet which just tanks AVFM’s credibility. AVFM would receive positive attention instead of negative.

            The only concrete activities I see are smears, harassment, and threats. Nothing that actually helps men who need it.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            We don’t like feminism and have serious problems with what feminists do – of course we’re going to be vocal about that. And stop conflating women with feminism – it’s not the same thing.

          • Auntie Alias

            I see hate slung at both feminists and women in general on AVFM.

          • sputnik

            “I see hate slung at both feminists and women in general on AVFM.”

            Seeing things, again? Fe– mi– ni– sm: we target feminism. Stop. conflating. feminism. with. “women in general”.

          • Auntie Alias

            The absence of fathers from the home is proof that women are stupid, heartless and profoundly unconcerned with their children’s well-being.

            –Janet Bloomfield
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/hanna-rosin-says-we-are-witnessing-the-end-of-men-oh-yeah-how-about-we-look-at-the-facts/

            And this is mostly why women, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, will never be able to compete successfully with men intellectually and nor, therefore, in any task or job which requires intellectual endeavor.

            –Angry Harry
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/why-men-are-more-intelligent-than-women/

            I have a better idea than yours. How about men just practice the same rights as women. Fair is fair, right? If a man knocks a woman up he should just chant a slogan like “My wallet, my choice,” and put her in the rear view for good.

            In fact, as many men as possible should choose this path for reproduction. It will be a benefit to society. Not that many men can see through the racket of hypergamy. Those that can may be genetically predisposed to that kind of intelligence. And the more those enlightened men pass their genes along as sperm donors, the easier it will be for the female cum receptacles out there to help us breed society back to sanity.

            – Paul Elam http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/activism/karma-one-man-feminist-destroyer/

            Men also recognize that women are vindictively vengeful when slighted, and that rejecting women’s sexual advances, ignoring their attention-whoring, or calling them out on their idiocy can trigger their wrath.

            – August Løvenskiolds
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/evo-psych/its-not-the-laziness-its-the-sanity/

            …men learn quickly that if you piss women off, even inadvertently, they will recruit other men to beat the shit out of you.

            – August Løvenskiolds
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/evo-psych/its-not-the-laziness-its-the-sanity/

          • sputnik

            And in each quote, the phenomenon under examination is a manifestation of socially pervasive of gynocentrism, currently known as feminism. Each quote involves a minority subset of women. Women who act selfishly, contrary to the greater good for the greater number, will generally use feminism as a justification, or unknowingly engage in the action or behavior without serious immediate consequence because of pervasive social attitudes engendered, as it were, by feminism. The great majority of these things would not be happening without the steady erosion of men’s human rights through feminist-driven law.

            We’re speaking in generalities, here. People conversing in good faith recognize that generalities have exceptions. This sort of quote selection borders on “quote-mining”, taking things out of context, or taking people of otherwise obvious discernment too literally in “the heat of the moment”. People of good faith don’t do that, either. I’m not so mistrustful of my fellow human, not even you. Cheers.

            I believe that all humans are fundamentally good at the core, and I recognize misdirection when I see it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t even be talking to you. Cheers, once again.

            In general, these are some of the smartest people I’ve read on the subject. What they have to say in sum does not equal what you would like to claim for them, here, and far from it.

          • DEDC

            Why did femtards of the 60s burn their bras? Why did they shamelessly latch on to the civil rights movement even though they have never experienced slavery/Jim Crow? Why didn’t they just go in and ask for that job! Seems bass-ackwards to me.

          • ExpatMatt

            It helps to have people acknowledge the existence and gravity of a problem–like male suicide– before trying to solve it. For example, Mr. Silverman committed suicide (after his repeated failures to get gov’t assistance) before I even heard of the MHRM.

            When there’s at least a half-dozen ignored, marginalized or laughed-at male problems that are equally serious, and many other minor but legitimate issues men face more than women, then figuring out our agenda, and spreading awareness are valid first steps. Gotta have people, plans and cash before real change is possible. Best use of limited resources right now means that we talk, and ask questions, and debate, and get people to think about what we’re saying. I don’t agree with every word the MHRM says, or AVfM, or any one group, but…they raise crucial issues that are almost totally ignored or unsolved.

            Gandhi didn’t just waltz into S. Africa and end the laws targeting Indians. He didn’t topple the Raj on his first day back in India.

            Movements take time, publicity, money and experimentation to build, especially when they challenge a lot of firmly held beliefs. We don’t get tax money. We don’t get huge grants from the Rockefeller Foundation. We don’t get courted by politicians.

            Or does ‘consciousness raising’ only count when the New York Radical Women do it?

          • Auntie Alias

            Spreading awareness of legitimate issues can be done without misogyny. So far, most of the blame for these problems is pinned on women or feminists. It’s interesting that the few that can’t be blamed on us are given very little air time, like prison rape. Circumcision gets a lot of attention but even that’s distorted to cast blame on us.

          • DEDC

            “Are there any links on the site to resources for men? I mean besides the dubious Dr. Tara.”

            AVFM isn’t Google, Ant Futrelle.

            Google it.

            Then tell us why feminists in waves 1,2 ,3… n did/do ANYTHING other than raise money (only amongst themselves), and pass out information pamphlets on ‘how to get jobs without flashing your cleavage’?

            Then there is that elephant in the room who has apparently sat on your head: How do you raise money when too few people care?

          • Auntie Alias

            AVFM presets itself as promoting the rights of men and boys. It ought to provide resource links for them; e.g., crisis lines, legal firms, etc.

            Ironically, David Futrelle’s site does have some links for that purpose.

          • DEDC

            Unironically, AVFM does too. As much time as you spend there, you should know that. What is your point, Ms. Futrelle?

          • Auntie Alias

            i can’t find anything there. My point was clear: AVFM doesn’t do activism and can’t even be bothered compiling a list of resource links to help men.

          • DEDC

            Once vetted, there are too few to compile. There are some and they are there. YOU can’t find them because you are too busy trying or pretending to get offended on behalf of the women whose psychopathy you like to coddle and enable. Interesting too, you can’t see the irony of ‘too few resources’ in this context.

            Furthermore, for men, simply knowing that there is a problem (perpetuated by people of your ilk and yellow hacks such as yourself) and that people see it too and are thinking about it is enough. Not every visitor to AVFM goes to these forums. Nor do even most of them come after feminists. I do. Some just ignore your retarded faith-based commentary.

            My point, Ms. Futrelle is also clear: YOU can’t handle a culture where it is just as commonplace to call women out on their bullshit as men. You just can’t. Probably because YOU cast all men as the jock who made fun of you in the locker room in middle school; and cast all women as the homely one who let cry on her shoulder (but still deserves a really great guy who isn’t you). You are on the wrong side of history and you will have no legacy. Just another forgotten blue poodle.

          • Shan

            This is self-fulfilling prophesy material right here.

          • DEDC

            lol wut?

            the fails keep a comin’

          • Shan

            “lol wut?”

            I know men who have been fucked over by shitty women who now think all women are shitty, so this informs all their relationships with women because they now presume ALL women are shitty. That’s where the self-fulfilling prophesy part comes in. Because they think all women are shitty, that’s all they expect from women. But the women who are less likely to be shitty can smell that a mile away and so they avoid them. Which leaves only the shitty women to engage with those men and thereby confirm their bias.

            And, no, men aren’t the only ones who do that.

          • Auntie Alias

            There are plenty of resources for topics like parenting, DV, sexual violence, and men’s health. Take men’s health for example. Find links about circumcision, prostate cancer, men’s breast cancer, and other things that affect men and boys. List crisis hotline numbers in the U.S. and Canada.

            I’m suggesting this in good faith so I’ll ignore the remainder of your comment.

          • DEDC
          • Auntie Alias

            Thank you but this isn’t what I mean. There’s no list of external links on the AVFM site broken down into categories; e.g., resources on parenting, health, domestic violence, suicide prevention, sexual assault, and so on.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Are you ever going to actually type your comment or what? This isn’t difficult.

          • Auntie Alias

            You certainly have Elliot Rodger’s misogyny and sense of entitlement down pat.

          • lady_black

            Your comment ‘in reply’ to yourself is duly noted. But since you posted to “yourself” no one will ever be notified. Lucky for us.

        • A. T.

          AVFM promotes domestic violence, focuses on feminism almost as much as men and is hateful toward women in what it does write about them. Which article should I start with? Paul Elam finding his inner Christina, who’s abusive, shallow and materialistic, because women are? Women are sociopaths and this is why we can’t be friends- John Hembling? :)

          And there’s so much *more*.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Sounds awful, you should stage a protest.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            The only people that I know of who actively promote domestic violence are feminists. They do so in their point blank denial of a towering brick wall of fact – and claim that domestic violence is a gendered issue. By doing so they influence policy (VAWA, Duluth Model, Primary Aggressor Directives) and create more male victims of violence. Men have nowhere to go if they are victims of assault.

            Do you think one male victim of domestic violence is too many?
            Do you think men should have shelters or safe spaces that they can access?

            If you answer yes to either of these questions – you’re NOT a feminist.
            In Canada there are 593 government-funded shelters for female victims of domestic violence and not one for men. Zero.

            We know that domestic violence is not a gendered issue and recent research shows that women are actually more violent than men (that is to say that there are more instances of female-on-male IPV.) The Canadian Association for Equality are trying to establish a men’s centre in Toronto where men who are abused can go and seek help, whether its counselling, or legal advice. Feminists here in Toronto oppose the centre.

            How can you people live with yourselves knowing that this is done, day in day out, in your name?

            It’s sickening.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I was recently pleased to learn that in the last year and a half, one new shelter has started for men. They have four beds. For all of Canada. Which is infinitely better than 0, but that’s not saying much. We’ll need to do a profile on them soon.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            We should do that actually.

          • A. T.

            Jim: So you don’t read the comments section on AVFM? Or Paul Elam? Huh. That’s interesting. So the comments that promote and talk about DV as an option are….?

            Wanting VAWA to include far, far more services to male survivors is a valid complaint, one I agree with. I don’t have a place to (for example) safely send male survivors of sexual assault/domestic violence in my rural community and have to work with stop gap measures- hotels, sending them elsewhere, etc. Not all of that is VAWA’s fault, but the bias does NOT help.

            Why would taking male survivors seriously make me not a feminist?

            I don’t trust CAFE/Pizzey’s stats, but I agree violence toward men is underreported and recognized and women are more violent than we’ve realized in the past, certainly.

            I live with myself knowing I work with survivors in my community every day- men, women and children. You?

          • fiona64

            The only people that I know of who actively promote domestic violence are feminists.

            Citation needed.

          • Auntie Alias

            ‘In Canada there are 593 government-funded shelters for female victims of domestic violence and not one for men. Zero.’

            http://www.mens-resource-centre.ca/index.php?id=65

            It’s a program of The Laurel Centre. From a PDF:
            “The Laurel Centre receives approximately 75% of its funding from the Manitoba Government and United Way Winnipeg.”

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            We do not promote domestic violence, sorry. If you actually read us rather than cherry-picked articles and quotations other people told you to read, or talked to us like human beings (we’re easy to reach) you’d learn the truth. Instead all I really see here is a bunch of sorry stereotypes. Ah well. It’s easy to find the truth for anyone who wants to.

          • A. T.

            I’ve read the articles and yes, they do. You just cannot admit to that for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you’re the Managing Editor and have a vested interest in AVFM.

            I have talked to you. You gave me excuses about why it was okay to print articles like that and it didn’t *really* encourage domestic violence. The answer is never ‘that was wrong’ or ‘maybe we shouldn’t describe a women’s blood spattering on the wall in graphic detail’, but DARVO and you’re an evil feminist.

            Can you find me a single article that suggests women abusing men is a result of men nagging?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I have no vested interest in AVfM, I have a vested interest in a human rights struggle, which is why I run a regular radio show examining domestic violence issues and talking to some of the world’s top experts on it.

            Please explain when and where you spoke to me. I’d be happy to do a Hangout On Air with you to discuss these issues if you like.

          • A. T.

            You’re the managing Editor. I’d call that a vested interest and no, that’s not meant to be an insult as much as an observation.

            We spoke on Twitter. I believe we discussed the same article, even.

            I would have concerns about privacy with an on-air hangout. I’ve seen names and more come out.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            OK, so you haven’t spoken to me, you’ve exchanged a few brief shallow tweets with me (which is all anyone can do on Twitter).

            I find the fact that you won’t talk to me face-to-face like an adult to say more about you and your worldview than anything else.

            Dang it, I really need to keep my word and just walk away. Still, one last time: real conversation between human beings, open to you, you have only to reach out and say “OK.”

          • A. T.

            It’s the lure of the comments section?

            Right. It’s not the fact that I can read articles about feminists that have annoyed people on AVFM. :P

            But I do appreciate the offer and I will think about it.

          • DEDC

            “Can you find me a single article that suggests women abusing men is a result of men nagging?”

            The femtarded version is sanctioned by most of society: “He cheated on you? Well cut off his penis! ha ha! tee hee! Snigger snigger!”

            Feminism ever only was about the fragile female ego.

          • A. T.

            o_O I think you have issues beyond my ability to help. I suggest therapy.

          • DEDC

            Classic femsplain: “Don’t you know what you guys are really about? You are about what *WE* think you are about!”

          • A. T.

            Aw. I have a fan! A deranged one, but a fan! Go me.

          • DEDC

            “How can you people take a several hours over a few days in relative anonymity, discussing male infants getting part of their penises cut off, or how children are becoming alienated from their fathers, or how false allegations are destroying young men’s lives, when *I* am still getting whistled at and cat-called (because I am so hot of course) on my way to work! THE NERVE OF YOU PEOPLE!”

          • A. T.

            Yes, you have the ability to pull random disjointed statements together that don’t relate to what I said. Very impressed. You can type and put words together, neat! I was hoping for a point, but I’m overly optimistic. ._.

          • Shan

            ” I was hoping for a point, but I’m overly optimistic”

            That’s what I like about you.

            However, I do totally agree with DEDC about the chopping off of penis parts of infants. I’m SO against that. If my son wants to alter his penis or any other perfectly good body part after he’s old enough to decide to do it himself, his dad and I left it 100% up to him.

          • A. T.

            Yes. Very much the same here, though I don’t know if I’ll have or adopt kiddos. If there’s a baby boy, yeah, he can do anything upon adulthood.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        Please tell me you don’t have kids.

        • lady_black

          Yes I do. And I raised them to be just like me.

          • A. T.

            Yay, lady black! And I’m so sorry I’m late to the party. I know AVFM well and can reference articles when they give crap and/or lie. :)

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            Hello from AVfM. Tell me about me.

          • A. T.

            You are Staff at a site that is consistently abusive toward women in general and feminists always. This is very sad. It has articles that promote violence towards women and is unapologetic about this, though, as seen in other posts, I get the run around when I bring up that up. I hope that means you don’t actually believe it at a deep level. ._.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            It’d be nice if you’d note that this almost always goes down to one article, years old, clearly marked as satire, and in response to a piece on a feminist site glorifying violence toward males.

            It’d be nice is all I’m saying.

          • A. T.

            I’m at.. let’s see. Mind 2012? In the archive. I haven’t caught up to 2014, which is my bad. The problem is that the articles date before and after that satire response. It was more than ‘one article’.

            Encouraging physical responses (if you don’t want to call it violence) as a response to violence is problematic for a lot of reasons. Let’s say it is straight up abuse? While things are improving (mandatory arrest laws are having interesting effects) there can definitely be some bias’ against men. Advising a guy to get physical isn’t the same thing as ‘safe’. Nor would advising a woman to get physical be keeping her safe.

            Sometimes self-defense is necessary, I’m saying if a client of mine can avoid that and the risks that go with it, it’s definitely better for all involved.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            I know AVFM well

            Oh another spoiled white girl, telling lies. I hope you did not ruin Dad’s new AUDI with your spittle as you banged away on your i-pad.

          • expect_resistance

            Your spot on the abusive sexist MRA narrative. You’re making the authors point.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Just an observation that you can not refute.

          • expect_resistance

            Really, more cow cookies. You should stop while your ahead.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            B.M.W maybe?

          • A. T.

            *snicker* All white girls have AUDI’s and i-pad’s apparently.

          • Shan

            I have never been the recipient of those privileges so, naturally, I’m going to blame the Civil Rights movement.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            So when your son is accused of a rape he did not commit you and your feminazii will help him out, right?

          • lady_black

            My sons are not accused of rape, because they don’t rape.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “because they don’t rape”

            That is exactly what the mother of a rapist would say.

            Classic victim blaming /s

          • lady_black

            NOW you have been flagged. And I dare you to say something like that to my sons.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            You know what the “/s” is, right?

          • BelligerentBruncher

            The /s stands for sarcasm.

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            You need to teach your sons to stop raping.

          • Damian

            See now that’s a bit of a problem with you.

            All mothers insist their sons don’t rape — and will go to bat protecting them.

            I wouldn’t want to be a rape victim of one of your sons. Because, regardless of your rape activism in the public scene, you have no doubt spoken to people in the criminal justice system, and told them all about how you are being such a good soldier and repeating all of the ideology they want repeated, so if any case ever comes up involving your sons, we all know, the victim won’t be treated well.

            After all, the criminal justice system is an industry, and the feminism it uses today is that of Catharine MacKinnon whose father sat on the federal sentencing commission, and it’s obvious her feminism which was worked out in conjunction with her father was designed to increase racial disparities in sentencing, so mass incarceration could happen. (Otherwise it wouldn’t be politically popular if it locked up too many whites).

            They are a huge money making industry and they care about the bottom line. If you help them make more money, that’s more important to them than justice for rape victims.

  • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

    Stop deleting people’s comments.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    An inclusive gender justice movement is already a part of the feminist sphere

    Mwhahahah.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    Yale, eh, sounds like I need to do a poster and sticker run…

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

    The next time some barren white women comes up to me and spits out “where have all the good men gone?” I will say radfem’s like this clown scared them off.

    • A. T.

      I take it you’ve never read AVFM? I’m happy to quote articles! :) Do you believe women have the emotional development of a 4 year child or chimpanzee? Is nagging an acceptable reason to get physical with a woman? Has feminism ruined your ability to emphasize with ‘real’ rape victims? – Direct quote of John the Other, as seen in his videos! Are women the origin of Evil? (Stefan Molyneux, The Matriarchal Origins of Evil.)

      I can even get you article links if you need more context. I know AVFM very well. Let’s play. :)

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        I’m happy to quote articles!

        Well hurry up then, screenshots and links please.

        Generally you will find people will head to AVFM and make up their own minds, the scares the crap out of you and your type of thug.

        • A. T.

          I’ve included the name of the Stefan Molyneux video. You can youtube that yourself.

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/ : Chimpanzee comment.

          princessecupcake.tumblr.com : Start at the bottom. I’ve collected articles by date and have links, screenshots and notes as to content. TW. The tumblr has graphic material from AVFM.

          I don’t want to look up John The Other at work, but I will tonight. Go wild.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

            Taking things out of context how feminist, how juvenile, how dumb, and predictable to think people can’t see through it.

            A.T clowns like you are a liability to the feminist movement.

            Bye!

          • A. T.

            What, you can’t justify it, so you’re running off? Cute. :)

            You are quite the bold defender of men’s rights.

          • lady_black

            Ad hominem attacks are the refuge of a scoundrel.

    • goatini

      //barren white women//

      Yes, we know you consider the female’s primary function to be “container”.

  • A. T.

    Blah, blah, macho crap, blah, blah. Shoo.

    • lady_black

      Flag it. That is unacceptable.

      • expect_resistance

        Completely unacceptable!!!!!!

  • BelligerentBruncher

    You’re not helping with comments like this. Keep it somewhat civil. Please.

  • expect_resistance

    Paul Elam sounds like an abuser just like Elliot Rodger when he said, “If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you.” Sounds like what an abuser says to his ex, “If I can’t have you no one can.” MRA = misogyny.

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      Elliot Rodger said that – not Paul Elam. All you’ve done in your little par is this:

      Eliot Rodger wah wah wah wah wah therefore Paul Elam.

      Do you people even know the basics of argument? Actually – don’t bother answering that.

      • expect_resistance

        I’m saying there is a certain pattern in the action and language of abusers. Paul may not be a killer but he sounds like an abuser.

        • colleen2

          all of these men are abusers. they fight for the right to abuse women emotionally, physically, spiritually and sexually, That’s what their ‘movement’ is all about.
          I expect that most of them do not prefer adult consenting females as sexual partners, mind you. They tend more towards the Rush Limbaugh school of conservative malehood .

          • McLargehuge510

            Of course it is.

            Because requesting equal treatment under the law in domestic violence abuses against men, fairness in family court to avoid having to have half or all of a man’s assets and his children absconded by default to a woman, combating the social demonization of fatherhood, addressing unequal education standards for boys and male drop outs at all levels, addressing the painfully high amount of male homelessness and suicide, disbanding hateful biases against men involved in false allegations of rape which destroy their lives, informing society that…yes men and boys are in fact victims of rape and sexual assault, that women are just as capable of physical harm and abuse as any man, and demanding equal shelters and abuse victim housing available for male victims of assault…

            Yes…clearly these are not righteous causes and obviously all about getting a constitutional right passed to abuse the womens. And those are just SOME of the issues the movement attempts to address. To think if you heard more, you would have to equate them with genocidal murderers too!

          • Shan

            Of course those things should be addressed. But the fact that they’re happening is not the fault of feminism or the existence of women.

          • McLargehuge510

            Does that mean you are saying Feminsim is blameless in this? I would very much disagree, and if you look at some of the presentations at the conference, you may also start to question that yourself. Even so, this conference is hoping to start a dialog on those issues you agree need to be addressed.

            The problem here is this article, like most heavy opposition, doesn’t even attempt to sympathize and shamelessly tries to conflate them with misogynist hate mongers instead of hearing their side, and looking at their evidence as to WHY they have come to the conclusions they’ve drawn.

            Finally, the very existence of women is not the issue. No one holding this conference would claim they have a problem with the existence of women, and that their existence is causing issues.

          • A. T.

            and that their existence is causing issues. <- molyneux claims we create evil.

          • McLargehuge510

            I guess you think you’re an angel an above all moral wrong eh? Believe it or not both women and men have the potential for mistakes and even great evil. And if it goes unchecked it will continue to be heavily pervasive in society…kind of like feminism.

            What Molyneux was saying is that if a society that doesn’t hold a woman as (ie half the population) accountable for her actions as men, if at all, and instead assumes men are the problem because they are the “oppressive” class, women can perpetuate a series of poor decisions throughout generations.

            Should they continue to make poor or reckless decisions unchecked, evil flourishes. See how that isn’t really the same thing as saying “women are the root of all evil?” Context is important.

          • Shan

            “Context is important.”

            Yes, and the context of “men are the problem because they are the “oppressive” class” is wrong.

          • A. T.

            Yes. Do you see the halo and wings in my avi? I also have magical powers and ride a unicorn. I sparkle in direct sunlight. Do you have any other stupid questions?

    • A. T.

      Paul Elam prefers to encourage domestic violence more than homicide.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        Screen capped.

        • A. T.

          Please do. I’m happy to provide the links, screenshots and quotes to back it up.

          http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/

          Please feel free to scroll through, starting at the bottom. If anything doesn’t work, just let me know. I will be glad to replace it.

          I’m also happy to show you how AVFM writes about male survivors in in the exact opposite way, with another article that clearly notes nagging is not an excuse for violence. Would you like to see that one as well?

        • fiona64

          Good, maybe you learned something today.

      • Mike Brentnall

        That is just a foolish thing to say about someone.

    • Mike Brentnall

      Get real.
      Read. Read what he has actually written. For yourself, without the goggles.

  • kitler

    Something tells me that this thread will probably be locked by the end of the day. AVFM members are like locusts.

    • A. T.

      Staff members have already arrived. If we’re ‘lucky’ Dean or other luminaries will show.

      • kitler

        Hey, didn’t AVFM manage to drive off Wooly Bumblebee because she didn’t kiss enough butt or something?

        • A. T.

          We Hunted The Mammoth has the details on that. I don’t know the most about it.

        • McLargehuge510

          Not kissing enough butt certainly puts a more positive spin on things. Kristina Hansen was merely co-opting AVFM as a platform for her own ideas and proved she had no care for their cause. She routinely attacked and started flame wars between prominent figures in the “manosphere” (MGTOW mainly) at a time where these groups’ ties were even more tenuous than now.

          Even more egregious, she also took advantage of a big profile story at the time involving the suicide of Earl Silverman, who spent his life attempting to build domestic violence shelters and lobby for federal funding for male victims and was demonized into poverty multiple times for it. He only owned one single shelter in Canada before he was so low, he felt the only way to spread his message was to hang himself.

          She took scores of donations to build an Earl Silverman Domestic Violence Shelter for men, which in all this time she has not done and absconded all money with no trace of it despite all demands from donators, claiming via twitter it is her right to take the money and do with it what she pleases and screw anyone who thinks differently…so yeah…not exactly an admirable person and she has no place at AVFM.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

        Your wish is granted.

        Maybe one day you’ll actually look for dialogue with people who just don’t see things your way, too. That’ll be my wish.

        • A. T.

          I don’t mind the dialogue. I mind reading insulting or degrading things. I wish you believed that. It is actually try.

          There are plenty of Christians that don’t believe in feminism, but I don’t care unless I go read horrible things they said.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            I read insulting and degrading things about my gender every day in the news, on feminist sites, and on my television.

            I finally yell about it and I start to see changes. It don’t take a weatherman to see which way the wind blows.

            OK, really need to stop and let others have the final word, but I repeat again the offer of a live Hangout to discuss. You might want to take us up on this, becuase you know, we are not going to go away.

            Ever.

          • A. T.

            I want you to yell about it. I don’t even mind yelling with you. I just don’t want to read abusive crap about women either. That doesn’t fix it.

            I don’t think you’re wrong about violence toward men being minimized or used as humor, etc. Or some really degrading comments. Calling that out is good. Let’s do it!

          • fiona64

            You might want to take us up on this, becuase you know, we are not going to go away.

            Ever.

            That sounds no little bit like a threat, potentially of violent nature. Raise your hands, anyone who is surprised …

            ::looks around and sees no hands::

          • wakjob

            Do you really live in a place where “we are not going to go away” sounds like a threat of violence? That almost entirely explains the assertion in the article above, and elsewhere, that Elam and other Men’s Human Rights Advocates make violent threats. You read threat into everything.

          • Mike Brentnall

            “That sounds no little bit like a threat, potentially of violent nature.”

            C’mon. That’s an awful cheap shot. And you know it.

        • colleen2

          I have no intention of EVER seeking out the men who post here. They have always been abusive and dishonest and while some women enjoy or expect that sort of treatment, they usually vote Republican. Why not try to find women to insult and browbeat on Republican blogs?

        • Phil McCracken

          Bigots wake up sometimes Dean. The MRM contains plenty of ex feminists.

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      That’s not very civil. That’s very hostile, actually. In fact, one would imagine that such commentary violates the TOS here. I wonder if your comment will be allowed to stand – despite the fact that it’s clearly hateful. I’m betting yes.

      • A. T.

        How would you define that as hostile? There’s already staff here and two staff plus readers showed up at the refinery thread. It seems at least in part an observation of behavior. Unless you feel an animal was a more worthy comparison?

        • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

          Describing people as locusts is hostile.

          • kitler

            Oh please.

            it describes behaviour

          • A. T.

            Will concede another animal would have been more flattering.

          • P. McCoy

            Hey don’t feel bad I basically said that if men were so superior they would have pouches like kangaroos to protect their ahem, personal parts and I got deleted. It didn’t shake my tail feather so quit complaining and MAN UP!

      • kitler

        No. Its factual.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

        Must be pizza time bro.

        Gezzz I can see why so many men will not date are marry MOST of these North American women.

        That’s it for me on this thread, cheers all.

        • fiona64

          Translation: Women won’t put up with John’s nonsense. Quelle surprise.

    • expect_resistance

      Yep, we’ve seen this before.

      • kitler

        Btw, a mod deleted every post I have ever made on this site yesterday. Must have confused me with Defensor Vitae.

        • expect_resistance

          I noticed that. What’s up with that?

          • kitler

            No idea. But feel free to lodge a complaint with management.

        • lady_black

          I don’t understand why that happened. But I’m sorry. Maybe it was just comments in reply to Defensor Vitae. It looks like he got swept away.

          • kitler

            I have bad luck, because this is the second time this has happened to me. Last time I was mistakenly banned by Brady because i called someone who was hawking a product a ‘twit’. That comment was flagged, and instead of checking my history, Brady auto-banned me.

            I bet something similar happened this time.

        • redlemon

          I had one of my posts deleted from this thread (I think. Or else it’s a Disqus hiccup). I think I used too many naughty words.

          • kitler

            I messaged them on FB, as did Jennifer Starr, but no response yet.

            The problem is, the majority of my posts = valuable citations and links,and I would hate to see them gone for good.

          • redlemon

            Yeah, that would tick me off. Mine was nothing more then some snark, so I just brushed it off, but I did think it was odd.

          • kitler

            Well I finally got an email response, it appears as if my comments have been restored.

            The mod said that they have a program that deletes offensive words…

            Perhaps there is a threshold, however, because ‘f wit’ and ‘dumb f’ are used quite frequently around these parts:P

          • redlemon

            I used the word a**hole a lot, plus I quoted it from the article. Oh well, at least it was a short snark and not a long, thought out response. It seems like there are enough other problems on this article to think about now.

    • fiona64

      They’re more like bubonic plague; locusts actually have a purpose.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

    Watching this is pretty comical. I have seen a hundred hit pieces on the MHRM and they are all the same. Quote mining, no interview of the people you are attacking, outlandish claims like Elliot Roger being somehow connected to what we do.

    Works well for us. We have grown exponentially from these articles. Why? Because people come to the site to see all the kitten eating misogynists and find out they have been lied to.

    Because the Reality Check bounced.

    You could save yourself a lot of angst by simply accepting that a growing number of men and women, straight and gay, black and white, religious and non religious, crossing all cultural and international boundaries are engaging in a dialog about sex and power that is not controlled by feminist ideologues.

    But then again. Keep on doing what you are doing. We love the recruitment efforts on our behalf.

    Cheers.

    • A. T.

      Does this mean there’s hope to avoid the male holocaust AVFM warned me about? Inquiring minds want to know.

    • kitler

      Even Pitters think that AVFM is a failure at public relations. You sound no better than the extremist feminists who want to castrate all men.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

        Counter-culture movements don’t rely on PR and never have. Study the Romantics, the Bohemians, Beatniks, Hippies, etc. None of them gave a hoot about PR and that is precisely why they grew into movements that affected the culture at large.

        This is not a dialog with the culture so much as a movement away from it.

        • kitler

          Yeah well, none of the above ever sounded like hate groups.

          Perhaps you meant to compare your brand of counter culture to the KKK?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Again, learn your history. Or at least learn something. All those groups were at one point reviled, hated, demonized.

            And like us, they provoked cultural wrath by attacking sacred cows.

            Eventually all of those movements had arguably positive influence on the culture at large.

            Same thing will happen here. In fact, you are watching it unfold right now. You just don’t know it.

          • kitler

            They were not hate groups.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            They were to many people. Hippies were accused of hating America. All those groups were subjected to very similar and just as outlandish smears as you are making now. Go read up on them. Again. Learning something.

            Just so you know, that fueled their growth, just the opposite of the intended effect.

            You should note that feminism is no longer a movement. It is the establishment. Feminism is “the man.” and the man always eventually comes under scrutiny and rejection for its corruption and excesses.

            You can be angry about it all you want, but it does not make it less true.

          • kitler

            Were hippies pro rape and pro beat women up too?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            No more than we are.

          • kitler

            Then why all of the pro rape articles?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You grossly misunderstood the context of those articles, but clearly proved the intended purpose of them. Nobody at AVFM wants anyone raped. Rape is a horrific act of violence while false rape allegations are tolerated with impunity that is destroying a lot of men and boys. I would bet more, than actual rape cases of which there are more male than female victims.

          • goatini

            Statistically, the percentage of false reports of rape are consistent with the percentages of false reports of other crimes. Additionally, this does not take into account the disproportionately large percentage of rapes that are never reported.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do have a clue what a false rape allegations brings a man? No you don’t. Nor do you know what an actual rape is. Do you?

            Look at what a rape applogist professor Adele Mercier teaches at Queen’s University.

            http://queensjournal.ca/story/2014-04-08/news/prof-accused/

          • kitler

            Do have a clue what a false rape allegations brings a man?

            Yes, it’s horrible, and anyone who is egalitarian opposes it. Many of the women here have husbands, and boys, and they care deeply for the wellbeing of the men in their life.

            However, AVFM encourages that women be raped and men lie about it. And that every real rape victim be treated as a criminal. That’s childish and messed up.

          • goatini

            Statistically, the percentage of false reports of rape are consistent with the percentages of false reports of other crimes. FACT.

          • fiona64

            Nor do you know what an actual rape is

            As a survivor of rape, I cordially invite you to go fuck yourself.

          • kitler

            Those articles failed spectacularly, lost AVFM the moral high ground, and make a laughing stock of the MRM.

            There are certain aspects of the MRM that I, and many feminists, can get behind. You asshats don’t help out the cause by writing inflammatory bullshit.

          • fiona64

            false rape allegations

            Let’s just look at the incidence thereof, shall we, and bring some facts into the discussion: http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

            Two percent of reported rapes were determined to be false accusations. Two out of 100. That is not exactly an epidemic. This is not to say that false accusations are anything but bad … but to behave as though there is some massive movement to falsely accuse men of rape is pretty asinine.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Please continue. Irrational attacks, as I said, draw attention to what we do. Then people can come to the site and see articles by people that founded the battered women’s shelter movement, former board members of NOW, and a diverse range of intelligent people that are nuanced enough to understand the difference between provocative satire and violence advocacy.

            If you have the research skills, go back through AVFMs history and track its growth. It went from a one man blog to a full blown publication with 10 times the readership of this place and more than most any feminist website out there.

            Why? Because a fair number of irrational ideologues fixate on a handful of intentionally provocative pieces of satire just can’t stop talking about us.

            That leads a lot of rational people to be exposed to the incredible roster of academicians, advocates, historians and gender experts
            who provide them a really fresh perspective.

            So many are finding it much more appealing than the establishment pablum being served up to TV zombies and other non thinkers.

            I really, really love what I do. And I love you for helping. :)

          • lady_black

            People who read you in order to mock you are legion.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Truth. I’m one of them. Have been reading this crap (and the PUA crap, and the Christian-Right specific breed of MRA crap, and the MRA crap written by women) for years now. Amusing/horrifying to watch it get so much attention post-Rodger.

          • kitler

            Your “satire” is why you will never be taken seriously.

          • A. T.

            It isn’t satire when you keep doing it. He did it before the Jezebel article.

          • Mostafa

            If by “before” you mean ” three years after.”

          • A. T.

            No, I mean months before, actually.

          • Mostafa

            Well then, you’re either wrong or flat out lying.

          • A. T.

            Try again.

          • Mostafa

            Explain to me how he was able to reference and link to an article that didn’t exist until months later.

            I also find interesting you’re more upset by an article where the author says in the article that he’s not serious than by Jezebel’s article where staff and commenters brag about perpetrating IPV and cheer each other on.

          • A. T.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/how-to-tell-if-he-hates-your-fucking-guts/

            April 3, 2010 vs. October 2010 for the original Jezebel article: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/domestic-violence-industry/if-you-see-jezebel-in-the-road-run-the-bitch-down/

            This is not the original article, but the internet never forgets and there are screenshots.

            This is what I’ve referred to, no, I’m not lying.

            After learning that article and other behavior by Jezebel, I boycott it. I don’t follow them on twitter, link to their work or read their articles. I express my disapproval by not supporting them in anyway. You just never happened to ask my opinion on them.

            I just don’t want AVFM supporting DV either.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Actually, my satire is why you will never take me seriously, and that is fine with me. But if you don’t think a rapidly growing number of people are taking the men’s movement (and AVFM) seriously, you need to catch up on current events.

            I never hoped to appeal to everyone. In fact, a movement that appeals to the majority has never happened because things that appeal to the majority don’t need a movement to begin with.

            Capiche? .

            Don’t mean to be personally insulting here, but you don’t appear particularly informed, sociologically speaking.

            But you give good sound bites, which as I said, is helping us a great deal, so thanks.

          • kitler

            AVFM is a joke, even amongst those who oppose extreme feminism.

          • fiona64

            But if you don’t think a rapidly growing number of people are taking the men’s movement (and AVFM) seriously,.

            Oooh, a bunch of angry white dudes who are pissed that a) they might be losing a tiny bit of their hegemony, b) intelligent women won’t give them the time of day and, c) that there’s a black man in the White House. I’m impressed by your “movement” all right.

          • wakjob

            Perhaps a movement for maintaining male hegemony will spring up if male hegemony ever comes into the world as a real thing that really exists. Stranger things have happened. The Men’s Human Rights Movement is not a white phenomenon. It includes among its best and brightest thinkers several highly intelligent women. And while it may take issue with some of the parroting of bunk statistics the current president seems to enjoy doing, it has no issue with his race. You simply don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • A. T.

            No, hate is very much the mark of a great civil rights movement. All the best ones called women c***s, whores, bitches and more. They also Nazi and Holocaust references often. It’s how you know it’s ‘real’.

            Which is sad, because there’s many real issues that do need addressing and advocacy. You won’t get those resources from their website either.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “This is not a dialog with the culture so much as a movement away from it.”
          You’re welcome to get as farrrrrrrrrrrrrrr away from the culture as you’d like. Please, do get as far away from me as possible.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            That’s the goal! At least you understand.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes! Go away! Go far, far away! Why aren’t you MGTOWing all the way out of women’s lives? Out of political issues that involve women? Out of societies of which women are a part? Out of economies of which women are a part? Just go! We don’t want you here!

            Do yourselves, and all of us, a favor by never interacting with women again!

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Sounds like you are saying I should get on a boat and “go back to Africa” It is the same mentality.

            I think the really sad thing for feminist ideologues is that this is the end of an age for them. I give them all credit. They intelligently manipulated their way into pretty much total control of public discourse for 50 years. That is impressive.

            But it bred complacency, hubris and sloppiness, spawning a counter-movement that is not going away.

            I could personally jump off a cliff right now, and I am sure that would please you, but the fact that rejection of feminist ideology is growing would not even be impacted by it.

            So sorry.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Sounds like you are saying I should get on a boat and “go back to Africa” It is the same mentality.”

            No. It doesn’t sound like that at all to any reasonable person. Ignoring the untruth of your implied assumption that men are treated in this society the way that Blacks were treated by whites back in the Jim Crow era (J/K, we’re still racist), the analogy is thus:

            You and your followers want to “go your own way.” You bought your ticket, got on the boat, and I waved bye from the dock and said “bon voyage!”

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Well, if you waved bye bye it is kind of silly to be talking to me, isn’t it?

          • Unicorn Farm

            ??? I know you are but what am I ???
            This is the best response that one of the Leaders of the Great Men’s Human Rights* movement can come up with.
            *lol

          • Unicorn Farm

            Also, it’s a bit rich of you to complain that I’m trying to kick you out of society when you website exists SOLEY to complain about women and try encourage manboys going their own way. It’s like hating the party, bitching about hating the party, telling everyone you hate them, saying you’re going to leave, and then when people hold the door open for you, you complain that they aren’t sad to see you go.

          • lady_black

            If you SERIOUSLY believe the idea that all women are responsible for dumpster babies and abortion, by virtue of having a vagina is ever going to gain traction, you are seriously mistaken. Because if you want to blame “all women” then you’re going to have to necessarily blame “all men, too.” At any time where there is an abortion, or a newborn cast into a dumpster, there was a man on the scene somewhere. She didn’t get pregnant by herself, now did she? She may or may not have come to the conclusion that abortion was for the best on her own. That’s to say, abortion probably is for the best when you have a man who doesn’t want to be a father, and a woman who by virtue of her youth and circumstances isn’t equipped to go it alone, or just plain doesn’t want to. That’s not an occasion for blaming. Either the man who doesn’t want to be a father, OR the woman who can’t or doesn’t want to be a mother. They are BOTH to blame, and the only consideration is how best to responsibly deal with a terrible situation. Your options do NOT include forcing women to be incubators.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            How can the father of a child stop the mother of his child from killing that child? And for the record, she can do what ever she wants to her body, but the child in her womb is made up of only half her cells and the other half of the father. This is a new unique human being which can not be HER body.

            So the mother has 100% control over the life or death of a human being she is meant to protect, not murder at will with impunity.

          • kitler

            Just because a man ejaculates inside a woman’s body does not give him ownership of that body.

            He wants a kid, he can damn well have sex with a woman who will bear his child willingly.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, that male who ejaculates inside a woman’s body never has and never will own HER body, but sadly in our modern world, he also has NO say about half his body, when that ejaculation turns into a pregnancy. I have issue with that.

            I think most sex is for the pleasure thereof, not for planned responsible procreation.

          • kitler

            1) it’s not half his body

            2) she takes all the risk, he has no say

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Wrong. Take a DNA test and tell me the body in your womb is identical to your DNA. Without him, she could take no risk including getting pregnant. The male is as important as the female when procreating. Does it occur to you that you are half your father’s cells?

          • kitler

            A zygote is not ‘half the mans body’ you ignoramus.

          • Shan

            ” he also has NO say about half his body, when that ejaculation turns into a pregnancy. I have issue with that.

            Why? Would you like the legal right to tell a woman she MUST have an abortion?

          • goatini

            Let me explain it to you in simple terms: It’s like breakfast, in which the chicken is a participant, but the pig is committed.

            The pregnancy is the woman’s risk ALONE.

          • lady_black

            I love the breakfast analogy. May I borrow it?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Irrelevant. Are you saying the millions of babies murdered in the world by the choice of the mother are all due to risk factors?

            http://www.lifematterstv.org/abortioncounters.html

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh, god, the stupid, it burns. It’s entirely relevant, because he has no right to require her to undergo any medical risk.

          • lady_black

            No “babies” are “murdered” in safe, legal abortions. The unviable human tissue is removed from the uterus of an unwilling host. that is ALL that happens. Regardless, she isn’t required to undergo ANY risks. Every abortion is an act of self-defense.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Modus operandi of a selfish mind. You took risk three times. Was it worth it? And why did you take the risk?

          • fiona64

            Risk that you will never be forced to assume, sweetie. My wanted pregnancy nearly killed me 28 years ago. Should the stick ever turn blue again (which would mean my tubal ligation failed — it can, and does, happen), an abortion will be scheduled so fast that your ugly, misogynistic head will spin right off.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are such a hateful, violent and bitter woman.

          • fiona64

            What a bunch of insecure little boys you lot are …

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Clearly your sails are void of even hot air so you attack me with this.

            “an abortion will be scheduled so fast that your ugly, misogynistic head will spin right off.”

            I would call that violent at the very least.

          • fiona64

            And so fucking what? Again, not that you give a shit, my wanted pregnancy almost killed me 28 years ago. I will NOT risk my life again for a pregnancy that, given the aforementioned tubal ligation, is quite clearly NOT wanted. I suppose you believe that women should be willing to die — nay, forced to risk death — in order to gestate … which goes hand-in-hand with my earlier point that NONE of the risks attendant with pregnancy will ever affect you.

          • kitler

            Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
            altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
            nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
            heartburn and indigestion
            constipation
            weight gain
            dizziness and light-headedness
            bloating, swelling, fluid retention
            hemmorhoids
            abdominal cramps
            yeast infections
            congested, bloody nose
            acne and mild skin disorders
            skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
            mild to severe backache and strain
            increased headaches
            difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
            increased urination and incontinence
            bleeding gums
            pica
            breast pain and discharge
            swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
            difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
            inability to take regular medications
            shortness of breath
            higher blood pressure
            hair loss
            tendency to anemia
            curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
            infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
            extreme pain on delivery
            hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
            continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

            Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse in younger women)
            loose skin
            permanent weight gain or redistribution
            abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
            pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
            changes to breasts
            varicose veins
            scarring from episiotomy or c-section
            other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
            increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
            loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s
            newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy
            spousal/partner abuse
            hyperemesis gravidarum
            temporary and permanent injury to back
            severe scarring requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)
            dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
            pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)
            eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
            gestational diabetes
            placenta previa
            anemia (which can be life-threatening)
            thrombocytopenic purpura
            severe cramping
            embolism (blood clots)
            medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
            diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
            mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
            serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
            hormonal imbalance
            ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
            broken bones (ribcage, “tail bone”)
            hemorrhage and
            numerous other complications of delivery
            refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
            aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
            severe post-partum depression and psychosis
            research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors
            research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
            research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy
            cardiopulmonary arrest
            magnesium toxicity
            severe hypoxemia/acidosis
            massive embolism
            increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
            molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
            malignant arrhythmia
            circulatory collapse
            placental abruption
            obstetric fistula

            More permanent side effects:

            future infertility
            permanent disability
            death.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Tell me something I don’t know. Nobody says you must get pregnant. It’s YOUR choice, remember?

          • kitler

            You seem to think that pregnancy is all fairy farts and daisies because women were ‘created’ for it.

            I disproved that.

          • Shan

            “Nobody says you must get pregnant.”

            Who has the right to say women must STAY pregnant?

          • goatini

            Of course my comment is relevant. Mere seconds vs 9 months clearly demonstrates the ratio of contribution to risk.

            And the following three facts make your response completely irrelevant:

            1. The civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice protect access to safe, legal pregnancy termination.

            2. No babies are involved in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. Only embryos and fetuses are involved. Babies are born, are persons, are citizens, and have rights. Murder is a crime. Safe, legal pregnancy termination is not a crime.

            3. Women are not livestock.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Right a beating heart is just a clump of random cells. Women who terminate babies are simply murderers.

            So when a premature baby is born, it is just an embryo. Got it. Any woman who would chose to kill their baby is a vile wretch.

          • kitler

            *insert belly laugh*

            You really are ignorant.

            First off, cardiac cells can beat in a petri dish.

            Premature babies are not embyros,but when most abortions occur, what is removed IS a mindless embryo. It is merely an animal organism.

            And abortion is self defense. And women don’t owe anyone or anything their body.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Continue with your belly laugh, there is nothing else here.

          • kitler

            What? no rebuttal?

            Oh right, you can’t, because you are talking out of your rear end.

          • lady_black

            Who SAYS she is “meant to protect it?” YOU??? A man can stop a woman from killing a child with lethal force, if necessary. But an embryo or fetus is NOT a child. And she is not obligated to use her own body to “protect” it. You as a father cannot legally be compelled to give an organ or access to your blood to your biological child. As a mother I cannot be so compelled either. Sauce for the gander is definitely sauce for the goose, buddy boy. As to all the fetuses you will ever gestate in your OWN body, you will not hear one squeak out of me about your choice to protect them using your own body. I promise. MY BODY, you get no access to for all the fetuses in the world. DEAL with it. Men do not own female flesh. That would be slavery.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Selfish mind. Most good mothers do not talk or think the way you do. I would want NOTHING to do with YOUR body nor do I care what you do with it. So your rhetoric is moot. I was not created to have babies, women were. Facts of life. For the record, you do not own half the flesh of a baby you carry in your belly and more so for the record, you would have an empty womb without the benefit of a male cell.

          • kitler

            Biology is not destiny.

            Unborn humans do not ‘own’ women’s bodies anymore than you do for having blown your load inside a vagina.

            We override biology ALL THE TIME. Why can’t biology be overriden in the case of pregnancy, explain that?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Does it occur to you how you came to be? If biology is not destiny, what is?

            You talk like a skank. “blow your load in a vagina”

            Yes women do murder babies every day, unilaterally. It’s a sad fact.

          • kitler

            Have you EVER been do a doctor? Yes or no?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What kind of question is that? Relevance? Control freak much?

          • kitler

            You said that biology is destiny/

            So, have you EVER been to a doctor.

            yes or no?

          • expect_resistance

            You’re the one who sounds like a control freak. Get real.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Why do other people answer questions or comments not aimed at them?

          • kitler

            This is a public forum.

          • expect_resistance

            We are a community that sticks together.

          • lady_black

            Yes, biology is NOT destiny. Just like most men are capable of impregnating doesn’t mean they must or should do that. A lot of you shouldn’t bother. We override nature all the time, and have done so since abandoning hunter-gatherer lifestyles in favor of agriculture. Big deal.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Bringing this back to my original comment, women exclusively decide if a baby lives or dies. The father can not stop her, without violating the laws that bind us to them.

          • lady_black

            Women who kill babies are arrested. However, ending a pregnancy is far different, and LEGAL.

          • lady_black

            You’re calling kitler a “skank.” How do you know it’s not a man? And flagged. Big time.

          • kitler

            If biology is not destiny, what is?

            If you are wearing clothes, typing on a computer, and drive a car, and live in a house, you are not overriding biology.

            Again, have you ever been to a doctor? Illness = biology in action. If you have been to a doctor, you have DENIED the DESTINY that biology would inflict upon you.

            You talk like a skank. “blow your load in a vagina”

            Unlike you, I’m not uptight.

            Yes women do murder babies every day, unilaterally.

            Abortion is self-defense, and embryos are not babies.

          • goatini

            Women and men were “created” to be parents. Or not.

            Women are not livestock.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Neither are men.

          • kitler

            If men were ‘created’ to be inseminators, then surely all men should be forced to inseminate, whether they want to or not, since ‘biology is destiny’ according to you.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your bicycle has steered far off the path. Who said all women should be inseminated by all men??? Nobody is forcing anyone to having babies, but without doing so, we will eventually have nobody to talk to. So men and women can choose what they wish to do with their respective biological gift.

          • lady_black

            Yep. That includes abortion. Game, set, match.

          • lady_black

            “Selfish.” We are ALL “selfish” when it comes to our health, and furthermore, we have every RIGHT to be “selfish.” You have NO IDEA who you are speaking to. How dare you call me selfish? You have no clue what I went through to bring three new lives into the world. So you keep your vile, lying tongue off of me, Goober.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I had no intention of making you angry cup cake. And yes, I find you extremely selfish and bitter. No, I have no clue who you are nor does it matter. And I can speak to you an bloody way I wish.

          • lady_black

            You’re selfish about your own health, aren’t you? Admit it. Can I just walk up to you and demand that you breathe for me via your circulatory system, at the expense of your own health? I’m for damn sure you can’t do that to me. And that isn’t bitterness, that’s reality. Even if you were my child, you cannot demand the use of my body, and I do not “owe it to you.” You cannot speak to me any way you wish and you will find that out when your comments get deleted.

          • expect_resistance

            You are a vile sexist pig!

          • fiona64

            No one is selfish and bitter but you, kiddo. It’s quite apparent that you couldn’t get laid in a women’s prison with a fistful of pardons.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yup bitter. lol I don’t mind you being condescending with me. I hope it makes you feel real good inside. (as he chuckles lightly)

          • lady_black

            Oh, and by the way, women were not “created to have babies.” Merely because someone is capable of doing something, that doesn’t mean they must. Or even SHOULD.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m speechless on this one. * Head desk * This guy is a fucking sexist pig asshat for sure.

          • expect_resistance

            Ha, and you say we don’t live under a patriarchy.

          • fiona64

            I was not created to have babies, women were.

            Oh, gawd. It’s another one of the “women are EasyBake Ovens” crowd.

          • lady_black

            Yep.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You’re damn right that it’s selfish and I have every right to be selfish regarding who I let use my body. Let me guess, you probably don’t think I should allow every random man use my body for sex, so why should I left a fetus use my body if I don’t want it to?

            ” I was not created to have babies, women were.”
            By that logic, we are all created to have sex, and so therefore there is no such thing as rape. That means that rape of men is ok. Do you agree with that?

          • Unicorn Farm

            “How can the father of a child stop the mother of his child from killing that child?”
            He can’t. Sorry. For all the reasons the other posters have explained to you.
            “And for the record, she can do what ever she wants to her body, but the child in her womb is made up of only half her cells and the other half of the father”
            OOOH. Never heard THAT one before. You realize you’re on a reproductive health website, don’t you?

          • lady_black

            I didn’t catch that one. Actually he is wrong. The embryo or fetus has it’s own unique cells. Only the genetic material comes from the parents.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Duh, you’re right, of course. I barely even read it, I just assumed it was the usual “the bayyybee is not her bodyyyyyy” screed.

          • fiona64

            As soon as the man can gestate a pregnancy for the woman, I’ll be happy to hear you bring up this argument again.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What a stupid comment. Ignoring the facts does not change them.

          • kitler

            Sounds like you are saying I should get on a boat and “go back to Africa” It is the same mentality.

            You love to paint yourself as a victim; it’s nothing more than an egotistical power grab. You are no different than the very people you hate – the extremists who paint themselves as victims so they can oppress men.

            We are egalitarians here.

          • wakjob

            That sounded suspiciously like an acknowledgement of the existence of extremists who paint themselves as victims so they can oppress men. Baby step taken! Hope survives!

          • kitler

            Yes. There are extreme victim social justice warriors who hate everyone. AVFM is no different from those extremists.

        • Auntie Alias

          Oh really. I recall you rubbing your hands gleefully at the thought of the MSM attending your little press conference. In the end, not one of them bought what you were selling.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Diana Boston sticks her nose into everything.

          • Auntie Alias

            You keep telling me you have no use for me yet you keep talking to me. I must be irresistible. :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            lol Not a bit. Talking at you darling.

          • Auntie Alias

            I can feel the love!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No amount of love could warm your cold heart.

          • sputnik

            No, it’s that you’re still here.

          • lady_black

            This is a public forum.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes it is.

        • A. T.

          How about you do thing but not be degrading to women? Leaves you plenty of room to advocate.

        • fiona64

          Oh, look, the MRAsshole in charge has showed up to teach us uppity wimmens the error of our ways. /snark

        • sputnik

          “This is not a dialog with the culture so much as a movement away from it.”

          Yeah, except, I’m not moving away. I’m standing my ground.

          After all, as I commented earlier, on the whole, in aggregate and in essence, feminism functions as one gigantic, indiscriminate, false accusation. ‘S what it is. And that shit’s gotta go.

          That’s what’s going away. Within what’s left of my lifetime.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

      LOL! :)

    • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

      I’m surprised they haven’t figured that part out yet…

    • expect_resistance

      Misogynistic hate-speech fuels violence against women. That’s all AVFM is.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

    The FBI defintion of rape wasn’t an improvement at all; it marginalized almost all victims of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Sorry, but you might want to go back and try again.

    • goatini

      //female-perpetrated sexual abuse//

      40 years ago, I think that was called “Summer Of ’42” and “getting lucky”.

      • A. T.

        o_O Hey now. This is one of the few times they have a point. It’s hard for male rape victims to get taken seriously, especially if it was a female offender.

        I don’t agree with the MRA’s on a lot, but yeah.

        • BelligerentBruncher

          Thanks for a least being a little open minded.

          I’m trying to be more open-minded myself.

          • A. T.

            You’re welcome.

        • goatini

          He was specific and said “female-perpetrated”. The vast majority of sexual abuse of males is done by other males. I don’t minimize, for example, prison rape, and don’t think the standard jokes about same being done to some miscreant by bad actors in prison are “funny” in the slightest.

          I also do not minimize sexual assault and/or exploitation of male minors by female adults – but also recognize that culturally, this was once considered “getting lucky” in the dominant patriarchal paradigm.

          • kitler

            AVFM are extremists, fighting against extreme feminists, only, in their stupidity, they have tarred EVERY single feminist on the planet as being an evil feminist who wants to castrate men. Just like the women who hate men for no good reason, AVFM hates women, because it’s about stroking their own egos.

            AVFM is the mirror image of the very people they are fighting against. They have erected a straw-feminist, and declared that anyone who isn’t full on MRM must want to castrate males en masse. It’s ridiculous.

            The rest of us are egalitarian, and just want equal rights for all. AVFM vs extreme feminists is no different from Evangelicals vs extreme muslims.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hey, I am the director of advocacy at AVFM. I can tell you, that I do not hate women, not one bit. But do tell me how feminism has benefited men and women equally? How has it, or has it, attained equality between men and women, which is actually an oxymoron.

          • kitler

            Well…

            The female vote…

            Birth control…

            Women having the right to actually OWN property..

            Women being allowed to open bank accounts IN THEIR OWN NAME

            Heck, even women being allowed to rent an apartment IN THIER OWN NAME

            Do you disagree with any of the above?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            These are all things to benefit women. Where is the equality? Men have no male birth control pill, not all men could vote, not all men had the right to own property, not all men could open bank accounts or rent an apartment. Do you agree?

            And you have not stated one thing that feminism has benefited men and women equally.

          • kitler

            Where is the equality? Men have no male birth control pill, not all men
            could vote, not all men had the right to own property, not all men
            could open bank accounts or rent an apartment. Do you agree?

            Did men not have these rights in the 1960s?

            Because women could not even open a bank account or rent an apartment without a man’s signature..in the fucking 1960s!

            Men got the vote and the right to own property 100+ years before women.

            Are you telling me that women should lose the right to own property, vote and use birth control in order to achieve ‘equality’ with men?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Men did not have birth control pills ever. And no not all men had the rights you site. Not in the 60’s or any other decade or century or millennia.

            Men were always expected to work and provide for their family. Atop of having to die in wars and in 95% of work related accidents. Oh the privilege of men who have been taught to be disposable.

            Pay close attention to what I wrote and you will realize that your last paragraph is meaningless.

            Again, how has feminism bestowed equality for men and women, equally?

          • kitler

            Men had condoms for thousands of years. Women didn’t.

            Men owned women, so of course they were expected to work, as women were FORBIDDEN to work outside the home. Women were forbidden from owning property. Women WERE property.

            Again, how has feminism bestowed equality for men and women, equally?

            Female right to vote.
            Own property
            Open a bank account

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What does the price of tea in China have to with what is going on TODAY! Why are you attempting to hold me or my sons accountable for what happened over the past 20,000 years? Typical whimsical feminist drivel. I expect to be treated respectfully and with dignity.

          • kitler

            Well, you are the one who claimed that white men singlehandedly built civilization while women were useless twits for the past 30,000 years

          • fiona64

            I expect to be treated respectfully and with dignity.

            So do women … but you aren’t willing to afford us the same courtesy that you demand. Quelle surprise.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            These are benefits for women. What are the benefits for men? Equal shared parenting? No. So you help with something that feminism has benefited men?

          • kitler

            So the vote never ever benefitted men?

          • wakjob

            The oldest documented reference to the existence of the condom is a little over 500 years old. It was invented as a defense against syphilis in the 1490’s.
            It is as accurate to say men owned women as it is to say women owned men. Their obligations to one another were clear and binding.
            Women have worked “outside the home” and owned property um, forever. This olde tyme patriarchal fairyland of yore never existed.

          • kitler

            If women have been permitted to own property since forever then explain why girls could not inherit goods from their parents, or patent an invention under their own name?

            Why were the above privileges only afforded to men?

          • lady_black

            Female birth control pills do not only benefit females. A male pill is a tough prospect. That’s due to the difference in the way males and females produce and release gametes.

          • crydiego

            No person, man or woman should be forced to be a parent if they don’t want be.

          • Shan

            Good grief. If you don’t like the idea of men always being expected to work and provide for their families THAT IS THE FAULT OF PATRIARCHY. Not feminism.

            FFS.

            And, yes, men ARE disposable under patriarchy. Those kind are only useful as ATMs and lawnmower operators and light bulb changers for the kind of women who need them.

            If you want to share a life with a woman as an equal partner, explore feminism. We feminists can be our own ATMs, hire gardners and change our own light bulbs. Leaving lots of spare time for more interesting pursuits.

          • lady_black

            Not all women can vote, own property, open bank accounts, or rent an apartment, either… cupcake. Most of those things require a good credit rating (or at least not a bad one). Back under coverture laws, women’s credit ratings didn’t even EXIST for married women. Married women were treated differently than unmarried women, and kitler should have specified that. My divorced grandmother could do all those financial things, because (shocked face!) she wasn’t married. Married men weren’t treated differently than single men, though. Explain that.

          • kitler

            Gloria Steinem explained that in the 1960s, she moved to NY and tried to open a bank account and rent an apartment, and everyone wanted a male signature, because women could not be ‘trusted’.

          • lady_black

            Maybe that’s what they wanted. But it wasn’t the law. My grandmother owned a business and built a home, and always had a car. OF COURSE she didn’t pay cash for them all. And that was well before the 1960s.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Come down to current reality. The benefits women possess today, men never, ever had, buttercup.

          • kitler

            Men NEVER had the right to vote?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Try google.

          • kitler

            yes, NEVER had the right to vote = still don’t have the right to vote

            as in, the right to vote has NEVER been granted to men

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What on earth are you trying to say? You are talking about a time of 100 or more years ago. It’s 2014 today. What are you complaining about?

          • kitler

            You told me that the female vote is not equality, because men have NEVER HAD THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

            In other words, you implied that the female vote oppresses men, who can’t vote, and have never been able to vote.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No that is not what I said or implied.

          • kitler

            Come down to current reality. The benefits women possess today, men never, ever had, buttercup.

            Men never had the right to vote, own property, or own a bank account.

            That’s what you said. That’s what the conversation was about.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Obviously, you are incapable of paying attention to what I write. I must prepare dinner as my wife refuses to cook for me.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Pay attention and if you can’t stop conversing by putting words in my moth. This is what I said. Pay close attention to the words , “not all men”

            “Men have no male birth control pill, not all men could vote, not all men had the right to own property, not all men could open bank accounts or rent an apartment. Do you agree?”

          • kitler

            You wrote:

            “”The benefits women possess today, men never, ever had, buttercup.””

            IE, men NEVER, and still don’t have the right to vote, to birth control, own property or have a bank account.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes that is right, but it does not say men NEVER and still don’t have the right to vote. They never had male birth control and not all men could or can own property or a bank account in the past, now and in the future.

            Although a male birth control pill is close on the horizon. No more women saying they are on the pill, only to be lying, getting pregnant and trapping men.

          • lady_black

            Oh well. If a woman lies about being on the pill, who is she really harming? Does that stop you from using a condom? Look, I don’t like liars. But I like people who falsely blame others even less. Because they are both liars, and slanderers. Here’s an idea. Stop sleeping with women you can’t trust. Or at least use a condom. Stop your pitiful whining, ffs.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Frankly, the more I listen to you the more I realize it is you who is whining.

          • lady_black

            Factually WRONG. Women have not yet had the right to vote for a hundred years. What century do you believe that happened in? It was the twentieth century.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you think the world revolves around the USA or Canada? Aboriginal women make all the decisions and have been doing so long before the white man arrived to pillage them. So it was 94 years ago. Does that make you happy?

          • lady_black

            That would be… NONE.

          • fiona64

            Men of color had the vote long before women did, and could own property in their own names, etc. Why is there no male BCP? Good question. Otherwise, you and the rest of the He-man Woman-Haters Club are all wet.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You sound like an androphobe and a vexatious misandrist.

          • kitler

            ad hominem fallacy

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Got it! But calling me a woman hater, by 50 year old Fiona is acceptable rhetoric.

          • kitler

            Saying that women were created to gestate is pretty hateful.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you out of your mind? Who else can gestate other than women? And why on earth would being able to bear children be a hateful thought?

          • kitler

            Just because women CAN gestate does not mean they ARE mere incubators.

            Get that through your thick skull.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are beating a drum, I never selected for you to play on. Go tear your uterus out and never have a single child in your life. You are free to do what ever you want to your body.

          • kitler

            Then why do you keep saying that for women, biology is destiny, because they were ‘created for gestation’ ?

          • lady_black

            Once again Atilla, just because someone CAN do something, doesn’t mean they have to, they ought to, or they should do it. I’m sure you can put your tongue on a frozen pole, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I will be sure to keep my tongue off of you. Thanks for the heads up.

          • wakjob

            The point of life is to continue. Mammals don’t reproduce because they are bored. It is our biological imperative. We have freedom to choose not to do it, but that in no way negates the fact that it is what we came here to do. Women were created to gestate just as men were created to impregnate. (Whether your creator is an intelligent entity or a set of astronomical coincidences doesn’t even matter) And then to nurture the next generation at least to the point of self-sufficiency, and then we can die. How is any part of this miracle hateful?

          • kitler

            1) neither men nor women were “created” by anyone or anything

            2) mindless biological reproduction is no miracle

            3) women CAN gestate a pregnancy, but they are NOT incubators.

          • Shan

            You were doing really well until you hit the word “miracle” there. After that, you started sounding suspicious. Can you either start over or elaborate?

          • fiona64

            Oh, I’m sorry, sweetie. Did I fail to be impressed by you? I would think that you would be accustomed to that by now.

            I’m sorry to break it to you, Attila, but I don’t want to date you. I’m happily married to a man … and, as I’m only attracted to men, I fear that insecure little you does not qualify.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I am so crushed Fiona. What will I do now. I lost my only hope. I truly thought you would be single with your attitude. Enjoy your man and I will enjoy women who actually care about other people in a compassionate manner. Nice chatting with you.

          • wakjob

            Tell me again how it’s the MRAs who are hateful. I never get tired of hearing it.

          • Shan

            “You sound like an androphobe and a vexatious misandrist.”

            That pleases you. It’s disturbing.

          • wakjob

            Enough with the Not All Feminists Are Like That already. In order for the word feminism to have meaning, there has to be at least one tenet they all have in common, one statement on which all feminists agree. “Men as a class oppress women as a class.” This wholly imaginary state of affairs justifies all manner of discrimination against men, since after all, he has earned every stab of it. The degree to which you take your misandry is hardly relevant. If you believe in Patriarchy Hypothesis, you have some misandry in you.

          • kitler

            So what is Saudi Arabia? An egalitarian paradise?

          • Shan

            “Men as a class oppress women as a class.””

            Nope. Start with capitalism.

          • B_Rex

            Ill bite, where are these moderate feminists on the issue of female perpetrated rape?
            Do you agree that men forced to have sex with a woman against their will are not raped. The definition that the author of this article is so proud of
            helping put into place SPECIFICALLY avoids any sort of “rape by
            envelopment”. I may only have browsed through a couple hundred comments but i certainly don’t see any feminists calling Alex out on this.
            In fact most colleges across the states are working on an
            “active consent” standard, pushed for by feminists would label a good portion of female perpetrated rapes of males as a man raping a woman. The basis that it is a mans responsibility to procure consent, one who is incapacitated by alcohol cant do that.

          • kitler

            I am actually. But you guys are too busy deciding that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is out to send all men to the gas chamber.

            I am well aware of the serious issues facing the MRM.
            And I agree on a number of points. But the hyperbole from some of the MRM just alienates potential allies. I ditched FTB because some of them are just as extreme as AVFM. Nothing but tone trolling and narcissism.

          • B_Rex

            You are what exactly? A feminist who calls out others on the bullshit that is being spewed. Your profile shows 17090 comments, can you show me even one where you call out any of the feminist rape apologizing garbage i posted above? Im willing to bet no.

            When i was in university a few years back we tried to set up a support group for male sexual abuse victims and had to deal with a university “womyns” group who barred the doors wielding improvised weapons such as tire irons and axe handles. This was supported by the student union and to, my knowledge, to date not one feminist organization has called them out.
            In fact after a mens issues group was almost started on Ryerson, by two women and one man, the Canadian Federation of Students has successfully barred mens issues groups from campuses across the country. Meaning men actually are disallowed from forming support groups to talk about sexual abuse on campus. Never seen a feminist organization criticize it.

            I for one am simply sick of people who self identify as feminists saying “yea we really care about your issues”, while ignoring the people they stand shoulder to shoulder with’s attempts to destroy and silence us. Quite frankly that’s what you come off as

          • kitler

            I only debate abortion. So no. You won’t find any comments of mine regarding rape. I do post at the pit, however.

          • B_Rex

            So when you said “I am actually.” What did that actually mean. I mean its not a grammatically correct response to anything.

          • kitler

            It means that I am a true egalitarian.

          • B_Rex

            Meaning it was simply a reply that had nothing to do with my comment? followed by an accusation of paranoia?
            You dont seem to really have any reply to the fact that the author of this is both a feminist and a colossal rape apologist, that the two are actually a common pair. You have nothing to say for the people here who identify as feminists who have nothing to say on the matter that the author of this piece is celebrating her involvement in dismissing countless rape victims due to the sex of their attacker.
            I really don’t see any reason why i shouldn’t paint you with the same broad brush as every other feminist who just ignores the inconvenience of us male victims of female perpetrated assault. I mean correct me if I am wrong but you seem completely indifferent to the fact that this woman deliberately erased us from the FBI’s scope of what rape is.

          • kitler

            I have not read the article.

          • B_Rex

            Did you read my comment? Are you just here posting uninformed thoughts that pop into your head?
            In my first reply to you i stated this:
            “Do you agree that men forced to have sex with a woman against their will are not raped. The definition that the author of this article is so proud of”?
            You responded that you in fact are one. I think i interpreted this as charitably as i could.
            You have completely ignored the damage and hostility towards male victims that is spewed from feminists without a second thought. Your only counterpoint is ignorance, which i might add is completely willful.
            again, I really don’t see any reason why i shouldn’t paint you with the same broad brush as every other feminist who just ignores the inconvenience of us male victims of female perpetrated assault. I mean correct me if I am wrong but you seem completely indifferent to the fact that this woman deliberately erased us from the FBI’s scope of what rape is.

          • kitler

            Envelopement = rape.

            Women are not all saints.

            Men are victims too.

            Happy?

          • B_Rex

            Not really you are still refusing to even acknowledge that the feminist movement at large or, even the author of this who takes credit for it, have worked to put in place and is celebrating policy that erases male victims.
            You are still not the sort of feminist who would call out this sort of bullshit and would stand shoulder to shoulder with people who justify and excuse this sort of thing.
            and you still cant seem to grasp that your own personal admission that sexual abuse exists really does nothing to counteract these points.
            But you are of course the sort of “egalitarian” who only deals with one issue in relation to one gender who cannot see the irony in this so i dont think there is exactly much hope here is there.

          • kitler

            What? You expect me to be a fucking activist now?

            I do what I want online and only debate topics that interest me. Its entertainment.

            And I know the women here. They all have men in their lives. Sons. Husbands. Men they care deeply about. But your gang just wants to demonize them because they identify as feminists and don’t kiss AVFM boots.

            I discuss male victimization at the pit. I keep my forums separate.

          • B_Rex

            It it activism to acknowledge that the feminist movement at large or, even the author of
            this who takes credit for it, have worked to put in place and is
            celebrating policy that erases male victims?
            Is it activism to point out that working to remove male victims of female rapists is wrong? or would that be kissing AVFM’s boots too much for you? I mean its not like there are even other groups out there, anyone who speaks about anything that affects men must be in league with the all powerful Paul Elam.

            and pardon me for demonizing someone who LITERALLY FOUGHT TO MAKE SURE that if a woman can have sex with an unconscious man or blackmail a man into sex and have it just not count. And pardon me for thinking its wrong to criticize those who stand beside them and defend them.

          • kitler

            AVFM posters came here with their minds made up. That every woman here had to be a baby killing psycho who wants to send all men to the gas chamber.

            I am going to mock that, which is what I have been doing. There does not seem to be a huge interest in rational debate on this article. Just outrage porn.

          • B_Rex

            Well given the fact that i’m talking to a woman who has worked quite hard to defend the notion that that you can still be an egalitarian while fighting to re-define rape so that it does not count based on the sex of those involved.
            Hmm I’m wondering who may be an impediment to rational debate.

          • kitler

            Think what you want.

            Men can be victimized. Women can rape. And men’s issues certainly need to be heard. Not all women are saints, and yes, some women lie about rape.

            The above does not mean that all feminists and all women hate men and want to oppress them.

            I am not sure how I can be more clear.

          • B_Rex

            You are being perfectly clear, you are just ignoring what i am saying.
            The woman who wrote this article is proud of the fact that she successfully campaigned for a definition of rape that says WOMEN CAN NOT RAPE MEN.

            You are defending her.
            You are defending a person who says that a woman can force a man to have sex, though coercion, blackmail, drugs, violence, whatever means necessary and it is not rape.
            You have defended this,

          • kitler

            No, I have not. I never read the article, and never did comment on it.

            Ive been debating abortion on this thread, and mocking the morons who are on a witch hunt.

          • B_Rex

            yes you have:

            “And I know the women here. They all have men in their lives. Sons.
            Husbands. Men they care deeply about. But your gang just wants to
            demonize them because they identify as feminists”

            This is defending them, You have chosen to say they are good because of their label and refused to look at the awful things they do. When i told you the awful things they do you worked tirelessly to ignore it.

            and you are debating abortion? Really?
            The first comment in this thread is about the authors SUCCESSFUL work to erase female on male rape, In the chain you accused this of being a “straw feminist” . Your reasoning as far as i can tell is Feminist R good, AVFM am bad.

          • kitler

            Not all feminists are good. Some are just as irrational and hateful as AVFM. I AVOID BOTH.

            and yes, I am defending the women here, because the paranoid assholes from AVFM descended on this thread, accusing all feminists of wanting to send men to the gas chambers

          • B_Rex

            What you did, in an article wherein a woman takes pride in erasing male rape victims, under a comment wherein someone is calling her out. Chose to call this very real person who has engaged in the very real erasure of rape victims a “straw feminist”. You, deliberate or due to some selective illiteracy, chose to stand up and defend the woman who takes pride in her rape apologia, again based on willful ignorance.

            Do you realize that you are attacking a “straw MRA” with the argument that they are attacking a “straw feminist” under an article which proves what he was saying is true? Who is incapable of rational debate here?

          • kitler

            My straw feminist post had nothing to do with the article. It was levelled at the “all feminists are Nazis ” narrative being pushed by AVFM members here today.

          • B_Rex

            But it was written in response to comments that WERE about the article! you see how context comes into play?
            The thing is there were actual Nazis, and saying for example

            “Awww ol’ Adolf cant be that bad, you’re just strawmanning him” might actually look kind of stupid.
            You chose to call “straw feminist” on something that was in fact, verifiably accurate. You chose to say, again through the magic of context, that feminists are in fact not erasing female on male rape following an article wherein the author takes pride in doing just that.

          • kitler

            No. I was not.

            When I made the comment, the topic at hand was “all feminists are the evil”.

          • B_Rex

            okay, the first comment in the thread is:
            “The FBI defintion of rape wasn’t an improvement at all; it marginalized almost all victims of female-perpetrated sexual abuse. Sorry, but you might want to go back and try again.”
            This was a direct response to content in the article.

            The comment you directly responded to was:
            “He was specific and said “female-perpetrated”. The vast majority of sexual abuse of males is done by other males. I don’t minimize, for example, prison rape, and don’t think the standard jokes about same being done to some miscreant by bad actors in prison are “funny” in the slightest.
            I also do not minimize sexual assault and/or exploitation of male minors by female adults – but also recognize that culturally, this was once considered “getting lucky” in the dominant
            patriarchal paradigm.”

            Neither these nor any comment in the middle even MENTIONS feminism until yours. Again Straw MRA much?

          • kitler

            I did not respond to anything. That’s disqus, organizing comments based on newness.

          • B_Rex

            No its not its a direct response to goatini. You can tell because Disqus actually puts in a little arrow so you know who you are replying to. I am aware scrolling up and reading things is difficult for you but it is seriously hard to feign ignorance of your own actions.

          • kitler

            I placed it at the very top of the page. It was not a direct response to anything.

            Disqus is malfunctioning.

          • B_Rex

            seems to be working fine for everyone but you. all the nice conversations where they should be. Have you considered that it may be you who is malfunctioning? No it must be you i mean youre just here to fight straw MRA’s, it must be the patriarchal programming of the comments machine. It couldn’t be that YOU just wanted to stick your name and boilerplate anti AVFM post in a thread started by AVFM’s news director. I mean its not like YOU would ever be known for being ignorant of content you stick your comments under.

          • kitler

            Your tinfoil hat is on a little too tight.

          • B_Rex

            Funny there is this thing people call Occam’s razor people talk about when deciding which event is more probable.
            Someone who hates AVFM and has no actual arguments other than that they say feminists are NAZI’s out to castrate all men, (and i checked their homepage none of it referenced nazi’s or castration) Tried to say something they thought was clever to someone from that page. Yknow, someone posted a dumb comment on the internet.
            OR…
            You, a valiant keyboard warrior, were made to look the fool when a simple comment you left on the internet was transported by software and placed it in a thread, skewing its meaning and making you look like an ass!
            Hmmm, which is more probable.
            Also starting out by claiming your opponents are Godwining youand then claiming that they cannot debate you is a pretty good way to show who is wearing the tinfoil hat in this situation.

          • A. T.

            They’ve referenced feminists and the nazis more than once. Once, RadFems and once ‘Could this happen again?!’

            And I’m rather horrified re: the sexual abuse survivors support groups being a problem. Unless there’s something you left out, that should not be an issue.

          • B_Rex

            Honestly, i have read the radfem stuff, i tend to agree with them that it Godwins itself. However AVFM certainly makes a distinction between the two, Karen Straughn has a video “to the nice feminists” which explains the distinction and why it still causes problems. A great example is the “nice feminist” author above who campaigned successfully to erase female on male rape. I have seen you make the argument here that calling an individual or a segment of a population something is not the same as calling the entire group that. Does this not apply to feminists?

            And just for the record, Mens groups are banned on Canadian campus, The Canadian Federation of Students has stated that any group that does not center womens voices promotes misogyny, since support for men is not about women (even though the group at Ryerson university that prompted this emergency action was started by 2 women and 1 man) it is inherently misogynistic, preemptively regardless of actual content.

          • A. T.

            It does, especially with something as diverse as feminism. I assume the same would be true of MRAs. Not all would be fans of the Spearhead, for example.

            Blah. I’ll have to look that up when it’s not bedtime.

          • kitler

            You are no better than the radfem SJWs at FTB and A+

            youre a control freak
            Its not enough that I agree with you
            I have to agree in the APPROVED, CORRECT WAY

            I ditched the SJWs because, like you, they are control freaks, and they got on my case for bad gramnar of things, and accused me of being an ableist and a misogynist. Because you know – typos = misogyny.

            You are a mirror image of the extremists you hate

          • Shan

            “Not really you are still refusing to even acknowledge that the feminist
            movement at large or, even the author of this who takes credit for it,
            have worked to put in place and is celebrating policy that erases male
            victims”

            To what end? What possible purpose could that serve ANYONE?

          • Shan

            Women are still fighting against people who say things like women who drink and dance (or wear short skirts or whatever) are “begging” to be raped, and against legislators who believe that there is such a thing as “legitimate” rape or that they women don’t need access to birth control because if they’re raped their bodies “shut that whole thing down” or they should pay for BC themselves because “why should I pay for YOUR sex life” and you still expect women to be able to spare the energy to advocate for male rape victims as well?

            Not that they don’t deserve it because NOBODY deserves to be raped EVER but…Jesus HMS Christ. Why do MRA types revile feminists so much for not supporting their issues? Those issues are all are part of the same problem!

          • B_Rex

            Why then would anyone defend someone who fights to have rape victims ignored based on the sex of those involved?
            Why do people ignore minimize and defend feminists who work to shut down support groups for male victims?
            I don’t EXPECT you to advocate for anything. I expect you to be a decent human being and let male victims have something, just a little recognition as an actual human being, but apparently that is too much to ask.
            And you know what, it would take one hell of a lot less energy to NOT campaign to erase male victims. To not fight against men and women who reach out and support male victims.
            Y’know what Men like me still fight against people who say men cannot be raped because they are always up for it. That it does not count because they were just “ambivalent about their sexual desire” That say men dont need a space to talk about these things because the whole world is mens space. For the love of god, this article is written by someone who AT A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEVEL managed to sucessfully define rape of men by women as not legitimate. You know what these people are called? Feminists! and you are one of them.

          • Shan

            “I am actually. But you guys are too busy deciding that anyone who calls themselves a feminist is out to send all men to the gas chamber.”

            THANK YOU!!

          • A. T.

            It was and is. I’ve just heard some stories of intoxicated guys being taken advantage of and even raped, for example, and am trying to be more aware of what I don’t know. However often it happens, a guy that is assaulted by a woman doesn’t exactly have support. People are likely to just go ‘Dude, you scored!!!’. They do it to teens too. >_o

            I do note that the MRM tends to gloss over guy-on-guy sexual abuse (and other things), I just feel they have a point here.

          • lady_black

            I believe that the distinction between an assault or the playing out of a fantasy is in the mind of the participants. I don’t like to see that boys are pooh-poohed when they feel they have been assaulted, by their friends (who are also males, by the way) telling them they “scored.” I distain such gaslighting no matter what the source. And dismissing the angst of a human being who is suffering is gaslighting, no matter who does it. I couldn’t see a woman telling a man or boy who was sexually assaulted that they “scored.” The people likely to be engaging in that are themselves, misogynists.

          • A. T.

            Agreed. I’d never mock someone’s trauma or grief.

            I’m not as optimistic re: all women, but agree that’s the response of unkind person.

          • Paul Johnson

            We do not gloss over it. We harp about prison rape, and constantly remind people it doesn’t matter who the perpetrator is (though it is important to dispel the myth that women never perpetrate), and take exception to every instance of, “Well those problems are created by men.

          • A. T.

            I’ve seen more of the other, but I shouldn’t I generalize. So I’m sorry for that. I’m glad to see prison rape getting some traction and attention and agreed, re: women.

            Saying the problems are caused by men isn’t going to get them fixed or helpful to a conversation. It’s also a small percentage of men, whereas the vast majority does fine.

          • Paul Johnson

            What’s your point? Doesn’t make it right. And it doesn’t matter who the perpetrators are. The victims need recognition and services.

            If a woman comes into a hospital with a .45 caliber hole in her chest, should the ER doc stop, and ask her, “Wait… was it a woman who shot you?”

    • Auntie Alias

      The inclusion of men in the definition wasn’t an improvement??

      • Paul Johnson

        Until rape includes the forced or coerced envelopment of a penis, no.

        • Auntie Alias

          Hm. Doesn’t criminalizing forced anal or oral sex benefit quite a few men or don’t gay men and prisoners count to the MRM?

          I keep hearing how AVFM isn’t homophobic (ha) and how prison rape needs to be stamped out yet it appears that only the concerns of heterosexual men who aren’t incarcerated are all that matters.

          • Paul Johnson

            Okay, I’ll budge. It may have been an improvement, but it’s not where it needs to be.

            That’s only because you don’t read our material, and only read contextectomies from second-hand sources.

          • Auntie Alias

            I read AVFM quite a bit, actually.

          • Kimski

            That’s it! I’m calling the exterminator tomorrow.

          • Auntie Alias

            Now if I’d said that, I’d be accused of death threats.

  • expect_resistance

    More examples of Paul Elam’s hate speech against women,

    http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/category/paul-elam/

    http://www.politicalresearch.org/tag/paul-elam/

    Southern poverty Law Center – misogynistic websites
    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

    A Voice for Men is on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s list:
    A Voice for Men is essentially a mouthpiece for its editor, Paul Elam, who proposes to “expose misandry [hatred of men] on all levels in our culture.” Elam tosses down the gauntlet in his mission statement: “AVfM regards feminists, manginas [a derisive term for weak men], white knights [a similar derisive term, for males who identify as feminists] and other agents of misandry as a social malignancy. We do not consider them well intentioned or honest agents for their purported goals and extend to them no more courtesy or consideration than we would clansmen [sic], skinheads, neo Nazis or other purveyors of hate.” Register-Her.com, an affiliated website that vilifies women by name who have made supposedly false rape allegations (among other crimes against masculinity), is one of Elam’s signature “anti-hate” efforts. “Why are these women not in prison?” the site asks.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

      Ah, relying on second-hand biased sources that tell you what to think and trim out what to read out of context, rather than coming straight to us and asking us our opinions. It just never gets old does it?

      • A. T.

        I’ve linked to some of your articles, would you like more? You never did really explain the socialized psychopathy piece.

      • lady_black

        I never take “We Hunted The Mammoth” as the source. He does know how to link to your nonsense (and even how to link without improving your site visit statistics!). I follow the links, just like I do here.

      • expect_resistance

        The Southern Poverty Law Center is a well respected well known organization. It’s hardly a second hand biased source.

        • Paul Johnson

          The SPLC is bought-and-paid-for :)

          • colleen2

            and who do you imagine owns the SPLC?

          • Paul Johnson

            Whoever has the money. Individual donors from radicalhub, for one.

          • A. T.

            Kathy Brennan does and/or has donated. I can unfortunately confirm this one.

          • kitler

            Is the SPLC owned by an evil feminist cabal?

          • Paul Johnson

            Was radicalhub an evil feminist cabal?

          • kitler

            Tell us what else is owned by evil feminist cabals.

            Were feminists behind 9/11?

            The Iraq War?

            The holocaust?

            hmm. the war in syria?

          • expect_resistance

            Source?

            And not true.

        • Phil McCracken

          The splc specifically stated that AVFM is NOT a hate group. I’ve accused the splc of specifically being a hate group for slandering people who stand up for mens legitimate concerns.

          • expect_resistance

            They are on the watch list for hate groups.

          • Phil McCracken

            By a hate group (SPLC), how ironic that is.

      • colleen2

        Y’all come here and express your opinions quite freely. I cannot imagine why you believe any of us would seek you out for conversation or anything else. please go away.

        • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

          No.

        • Phil McCracken

          Thanks for the invite.

        • Mike Brentnall

          Go away?
          You might miss an opportunity to learn something about other people’s points of view by engaging in direct dialogue with them speaking for themselves, rather than relying on the words and opinions of other anti MRA’ web sites.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Opportunity to learn? I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years. I’ve seen all there is to see and your bullshit speaks for itself. You think your posts are new? Interesting? Not in the slightest. As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

          • Mike Brentnall

            Touch one unknown portion on keyboard and original reply disappears.

            “Opportunity to learn?”
            Yes, by communicating in direct dialogue with others and knowing what their viewpoints are about. Sort of what is happening now, albeit intermittently.

            “I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years.”
            A credit to you. Then you would know of some of the ongoing concerns that men wish to speak about. I too am aware of women’s concern both past and present.

            “I’ve seen all there is to see…”
            Are you referring to: days old infants undergoing anesthesia free genital circumcision, the suppressing of human contact and comforting to infant and early years boys, (leading to) grooming boys for early independence, some early reading and writing comprehension difficulties, encouraging or enforcing the stifling of emotion and of its natural expression, easier and acceptable targets for physical assaults from both sexes, higher younger years suicide rates – 4 to 1 male/female ratio,…

            “… and your bullshit speaks for itself.”
            What was written just above has been observed and recorded by many skilled caring people. It’s a bit late to take it up with them if you think it is bullshit. Their work has been known of for years. I have yet to mention what occurs to men beyond the teen years in today’s culture.

            “You think your posts are new?”
            Some find the old ones difficult to grasp.

            “Interesting? Not in the slightest.”
            The honesty is appreciated. You are to be thanked for showing the readership what and how you feel about infant boys to grown elder men.

            “As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone”
            Those of a decidedly disparaging ilk are already gone and left behind. I cannot speak entirely to why many men have abandoned this demographic but perhaps it is due to being witness and subject to an obviously displayed cultural and legally enforced hostility being directed toward them.
            Billions of dollars, pounds or the respective currencies of any or all combined nations have been allotted to addressing feminist led female concerns. This hogging of plenty of the world’s resources into such concern has placed each of these same nations into generational indebtedness. Now that men’s issues has both yours and more of the world’s attention the concerns of boys and men will be further addressed to fulfil and complement what feminism is alleged to have promoted. Parity.

            “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
            This show of goodwill has been a regular occurrence for some years now so it is hardly something new. Instead, think revolving.

          • Mike Brentnall

            I had to reply to my own comment directly above this one ^ to point out that my reply to “collen2″ has disappeared or was deleted.

            Now, how are people, the readership, to ascertain for themselves what I had originally wrote and was responded to later by Unicorn Farm?

            Here is the comment by “colleen2″:
            “colleen2 Dean Esmay • 21 hours ago
            Y’all come here and express your opinions quite freely. I cannot imagine why you believe any of us would seek you out for conversation or anything else. please go away.”

            Here is what I actually wrote and how it appeared before it was deleted:
            “Mike Brentnall colleen2 • an hour ago
            Go away?
            You might miss an opportunity to learn something about other people’s points of view by engaging in direct dialogue with them speaking for themselves, rather than relying on the words and opinions of other anti ‘MRA’ web sites.”

            Here is what Unicorn Farm wrote in response to my comment directly above:

            “Unicorn Farm Mike Brentnall • 18 hours ago
            Opportunity to learn? I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years. I’ve seen all there is to see and your bullshit speaks for itself. You think your posts are new? Interesting? Not in the slightest. As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”

            I responded to Unicorn Farm with the following:

            “Mike Brentnall Unicorn Farm • 11 hours ago

            Touch one unknown portion on keyboard and original reply disappears.

            “Opportunity to learn?”
            Yes, by communicating in direct dialogue with others and knowing what their viewpoints are about. Sort of what is happening now, albeit intermittently.

            “I’ve been reading MRA websites of various types for years.”
            A credit to you. Then you would know of some of the ongoing concerns that men wish to speak about. I too am aware of women’s concern both past and present.

            “I’ve seen all there is to see…”
            Are you referring to: days old infants undergoing anesthesia free genital circumcision, the suppressing of human contact and comforting to infant and early years boys, (leading to) grooming boys for early independence, some early reading and writing comprehension difficulties, encouraging or enforcing the stifling of emotion and of its natural expression, easier and acceptable targets for physical assaults from both sexes, higher younger years suicide rates – 4 to 1 male/female ratio,…

            “… and your bullshit speaks for itself.”
            What was written just above has been observed and recorded by many skilled caring people. It’s a bit late to take it up with them if you think it is bullshit. Their work has been known of for years. I have yet to mention what occurs to men beyond the teen years in today’s culture.

            “You think your posts are new?”
            Some may find the older posts of others difficult to comprehend.

            “Interesting? Not in the slightest.”
            The honesty is appreciated. You are to be thanked for showing the readership what and how you feel about infant boys to grown elder men.

            “As I’ve said before, for a bunch of men whining about Going their own way, you all aren’t in a hurry to leave us the fuck alone”
            Those of a decidedly disparaging ilk are already gone and left behind. I cannot speak entirely to why many men have abandoned this demographic but perhaps it is due to being witness and subject to an obviously displayed cultural and legally enforced hostility being directed toward them.
            Billions of dollars, pounds or the respective currencies of any or all combined nations have been allotted to addressing feminist led female concerns. This hogging of plenty of the world’s resources into such concern has placed each of these same nations into generational indebtedness. Now that men’s issues has both yours and more of the world’s attention the concerns of boys and men will be further addressed to fulfil and complement what feminism is alleged to have promoted. Parity.

            “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
            This show of goodwill has been a regular occurrence for some years now so it is hardly something new. Instead, think revolving.”
            What exactly is going on here?

        • TPH

          Nah, we like to express out opinions and speak up about our concerns so we can see the avalanche of hate and belittlement voicing male issues brings from people like you.

          • Phil McCracken

            And then we screencap them for posterity and because our opinions are censored and deleted.
            .org gives some air of false credibility, just anther of many facepalms I guess.

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

    An interesting question before I go: Many will excuse excesses in rhetoric by feminists as “necessary” to shake people up and make much needed social change.

    Is it not acceptable for others to have a history of that, or do only feminists get that? Seriously wondering.

    • A. T.

      Not when your rhetoric is ‘smack the living shit out of her’.

    • A. T.

      or ‘some women are ‘begging for it’, it being rape.

    • A. T.

      Or! “The real reason men and women cant be friends is that women lack moral agency.

      Moral agency is a person’s ability to make moral judgments and take action that comport with morality. A moral agent is “a individual who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong.

      I’m not suggesting here that women, as a demographic, are immoral, although a surface reading of behavior might sometimes lead to that impression. Rather, they are amoral – simply lacking in a moral or an ethical compass.”

      http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

        Again, cherry-picking through years-old articles, among thousands on the site nothing like it, looking for something to be offended by.

        Still, let’s say this article, clearly marked as speculative, and clearly not including all women (just read it, it says both those things), is still excessive. I note again: rhetorical excesses of feminists are routinely viewed as having been necessary to gain attention to vitally important issues.

        Are we allowed rhetorical excesses too, or not?

        • A. T.

          So the problem is that I found it, not that someone wrote it and you printed it. Or that someone took it seriously enough to print.

          Wouldn’t that be evasion, again?

          You’re still making excuses while abusive rhetoric is okay. Do you or do you not call feminists out on how they talk about men? Where does this double standard come from?

          And no, especially not when you call out feminists FREQUENTLY for the exact same thing and expect to be taken seriously.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            OK, so if I read you right, we’re hypocrites if we indulge in feminist-style rhetorical excess. You may have a point there. Unfortunatley, years of experience in trying to get men’s issues taken seriously only to be mocked, marginalized, belittled, told the issues aren’t real, etc. made me realize that perhaps rhetorical excess was going to be necessary.

            I’m sure that won’t satisfy you, but out of curiosity, why don’t you turn just as much energy into condemning rhetorical excesses by feminists?

          • A. T.

            There is something to that. I’m not going to deny I’ve seen men, women and feminists be dismissive of men’s issues. I know something of the stigma around men’s mental health alone. It’s not pretty.

            It didn’t satisfy me, but it helped.

            I do at times, when there’s a prompt. I call it ‘white feminism’ as it’s known, feminists giving Muslim women helpful advice! and other such topics.

          • Martin Lloyd

            I hope I am not being presumptuous by butting in, but I’d like to throw in my experiences of some of the offensive rhetoric.

            You are offended by a lot of the stuff AVFM writes? Good. You’re supposed to.

            For instance, “Bash A Violent Bitch” describes an abused boyfriend/husband retaliating and severely hurting his attacker. The mental image disgusted me no end.

            Whereas the mental image of an abused girlfriend/wife retaliating and severely hurting her (male) attacker would probably make me cheer for her – even highlighted in the article with “You GO, boy.”

            This showed me part of my anti-male sexism. By inducing me into a state of outrage, I realised that I was more upset by the image of a man fighting back than I was by the thought of a woman attacking a man in the full knowledge that he is unwilling to hurt her: in my mind, for a man to hit back was worse than for a woman to intentionally torture someone. The offensiveness of the message used my outrage to expose my own prejudices against men.

            Then the article specifically says not to hit back (something that keeps getting missed out when commenting on it), which made me feel better about the whole article, then finishes up by pointing out that fighting back is what equality would look like… and I didn’t like it. This said a lot about my perceptions. Equal treatment appeared extremely misogynistic to me.

            Unfortunately, a polite message telling people they have a double-standard can be intellectually accepted and then ignored. Actually experiencing the outrage taught me to take my own anti-male sexism seriously.

            I hear messages about men every day, and it is only when I hear the same message said about women do I realise how offensive that message is. Removing the mental filters is always going to be a challenging and provocative experience.

            Anyway, I hope at least somebody finds that helpful. Thanks for listening.

          • A. T.

            First off, thank you for being polite! I appreciate it.

            Thank you for offering the first reasonable explanation beyond ‘satire’. There’s too much for me to think that’s AVFM’s only problem, the Jezebel article and how people respond to that and others? Yeah. People don’t take it seriously, not nearly enough of the time.

            Heh. I’ve had a male victim of DV tell me men weren’t real victims. The cultural bias and mess around it is.. significant.

            I don’t mind listening. We don’t agree on AVFM, necessarily, but we agree on a lot of the problems and that the way people talk about and treat men isn’t okay, so hey.

          • Martin Lloyd

            You’re welcome. Thank you for reading with an open mind.

          • kitler

            ‘rhetorical excess’ just makes you a laughing stock

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your observation is flawed.

          • kitler

            Then why do pitters mock you?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            OK, tell you what, I’ll let you have the last word, but the offer of a public Hangout discussion stands. Olive branch is there, all you have to do is reach for it.

          • A. T.

            I do appreciate it, thank you. I will let you know if I change my mind.

        • A. T.

          The article says ‘western women’ and ‘majority of’.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Dean Esmay

            So, without getting into anymore specific details of interpretation of this old article, I ask again: are we allowed rhetorical excesses like feminists, or are we not?

            Are we allowed rhetorical excesses like feminists are, or are we not?

            One more time: are we allowed rhetorical excesses like feminists are, or are we not?

          • A. T.

            No. Not this sort and not when you protest it from feminists.

            I mean, you can do it. It’s just hypocritical, especially when you call it misandry. It’s wrong or it’s not. It’s not right *just* for AVFM.

            I also believe degrading men and women is wrong, regardless of the source.

        • lady_black

          NO. You are not. The history is plainly this. “Excess” has been on the side of men for millennia. The fact that you’re buttsore about this no longer being so does not excuse calls for domestic violence and the blaming of women for all the world’s ills. Not like you haven’t blamed women all along, while hogging all the power for yourselves.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Science tells us domestic violence is equal between men and women. Why does our judiciary fail to recognize this scientific fact?

          • goatini

            But since that is not correct or accurate, you fail.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not exactly. Nor do you know the science the same as our judiciary. Have a peek and learn something scientific.

            http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

          • goatini

            Let’s just start with the Gelles cite. Gelles rejects this interpretation of his research. Women are self-reported to be just as likely to strike their partners as men are, but **they are not just as likely to batter their partners as men are. That is a crucial distinction.**

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Perhaps this will make it easier for you to comprehend.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWQ08GbrfPU

          • goatini

            The comprehension problem is most assuredly NOT on my side.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That is from your perspective my learned friend.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Where does Gelles reject the research of Prof. Fiebert? His research is peer reviewed at the highest level. Just who are you to question his work?

          • lady_black

            Oh, that explains why judges never grant PFAs to men… oh wait… never mind. Judges DO grant PFAs to men. The language in the PFA laws are gender neutral.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Nope.

        • fiona64

          Well, the mansplaining had to come sooner or later …

      • Shan

        What the hell?

        • A. T.

          They publish stuff like this, yes. Paul discovering his feminine side is fun. Spoiler: He’s abusive, shallow and generally awful, because women suck.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You’re wrong.

          • Auntie Alias

            He verbally abuses MRAs for pete’s sake.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You abuse males who care about the well being of men and boys.

          • lady_black

            Whining about women doesn’t equal caring about men and boys.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Who’s whining?

          • lady_black

            MRAs are. And you are. And that has never been caring, and never will be. Your whining amounts to “I’m not the boss anymore, and it’s all the fault of evil wimmins.” That’s TOO BAD.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            lol So you be the boss. Does that make you happy? Right. Men are not allowed to voice concerns about males. Otherwise known as whining by minds like yours.

            One of these great presenters addressed this very phenomenon at the AVFM Men’s Issues Conference.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/international-conference-on-mens-issues-live-stream/

          • Shan

            “So you be the boss.”

            That’s not what she said.

          • lady_black

            OMG, Thank you. That is SO not what I said.

          • Shan

            They seem to think that someone MUST be the boss, and that saying “You’re not the boss of me” necessarily has to mean you’re saying “I am the boss of you.”

          • Auntie Alias

            I save my compassion for men and boys who don’t hate women.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hypocrite.

          • A. T.

            You feel compassion for feminists?

          • A. T.

            Not nearly as much as they do complaining about feminism. Check out their activism section on their website.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I am part of the staff at AVFM. I know what my colleagues and I write at http://www.AVoiceForMen.com

          • A. T.

            Do you want me to pick a month and count up the number of articles that reference women and/or feminism vs. men and men’s issues? I’ve done it before.

            Or answer why women being less intelligent by Angry Harry is a men’s issue? Why Paul Elam finding his inner shallow female was a men’s issue?

            Why the activism page doesn’t talk about how to help boys in school or where to get info? Or to advocate re: prison rape and sentencing. Or the drug war and sentencing disparity. While trans issues aren’t mentioned, even though you supposed have trans followers? Police brutality? Yeah.

            But false rape, where you can complain about women? Definitely!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you grip the purpose of AVFM? Why don’t you come to http://www.AVoiceForMen.com and make your case on what ever piece you like. Better yet, why don’t you offer up a google hangout discussion/debate?

          • A. T.

            Coming to the comments sections would be pointless and asking to get banned. They don’t like dissent. I would be called little girl and other helpful comments. They don’t like it.

            A google hangout? o_O

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Hello Rape apologist

          • goatini

            Projection

          • Auntie Alias

            Got nothing to say about the MRAs Elam berated and/or banned for questioning what happens to their donations?

          • A. T.

            Read: Paul Elam finds his Inner Christina and get back to me.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I have read everything Paul Elam has written. What’s your actual point here?

          • A. T.

            His idea of finding his feminine side is emotional abusive, shallow and more. It paints a clear idea of how he views modern women. Which would be: badly. He’s not subtle.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No he is not. Paul is straight to the point. No guessing. I disagree with your point of view.

          • A. T.

            Please tell me how that article portrayed positive feminine attributes.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you sure that is what the author meant to articulate? According to another female here, men and women have no respective attributes. Only individuals have attributes according to that thinking, there is no feminine attribute.

          • A. T.

            I politely disagree with them, but note many women and men fall outside respective boxes and have their own mix of traits.

            Regardless, can you not answer my question? How did the article portray being female or discovering a feminine side positively?

          • lady_black

            “You’re wrong” isn’t much of an argument.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Right, I don’t argue, I debate intellectual minds.

          • A. T.

            Do you read AVFM or just imagine what it might be like?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I only imagine what it would be like if you actually read and understood AVFM material.

          • lady_black

            You do neither.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            According to your feeble mind making it meaningless as your argument.

      • lady_black

        I can assure him that 1) yes, men and women absolutely CAN be friends. Little boys in grown-up bodies and women being friends, not so much. Also, 2) he cannot simultaneously claim that women are not moral agents and accuse them of acting immorally.

      • fiona64

        But their nonsense isn’t anti-woman. Whatever …

    • Auntie Alias

      False equivalence. Feminists don’t paint men as childlike, irresponsible, depraved, immoral, and stupid.

      • Shan

        “Feminists don’t paint men as childlike, irresponsible, depraved, immoral, and stupid.”

        That would be prime-time sitcoms and most commercials. Although it does seem they’ve been getting a BIT better.

        • goatini

          If they think feminists are the ones writing and producing those sitcoms and commercials, they’re deluded.

          • Shan

            Hm. It didn’t cross my mind that anybody would assume that.

          • A. T.

            They don’t think that far ahead.

      • wakjob

        This statement becomes true when you excise the word “don’t.”

        • Auntie Alias

          Very mature argument.

  • kitler

    The True Pooka on AVFM:

    “”Men’s Rights Ironic Activism

    Putting aside for a moment that AVFM has full gone into full Conservapedia-Andrew Shlafly mode and created the “AVFM Wiki” page (facts brought to you with an bias!) ,I find it incredibly ironic that a man guilty of tax forfeiture would be complaining about the tax exempt status of other organizations.””

    https://thetruepooka.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/avfm11.jpg

    http://thetruepooka.wordpress.com/2014/07/08/mens-rights-ironic-activism/

  • Astrokid

    Great article.. works well on the echo chamber. Not so much on open platforms like Youtube, where feminism is getting killed. And not just by MRAs. thunderf00t, Amazing Atheist, and a whole lot of others LOL

    • A. T.

      Yes, all the great minds of our time. *possible sarcasm*

    • kitler

      Says the guy who believes that men are universally oppressed by women in India.

      lulz

      • lady_black

        You mean you didn’t hear about that man in India who was raped to death on a bus… err… wait, never mind.

        • kitler

          yes, astrokid has made the argument that women in India have oppressed men because they 1) get their own section on the bus 2) are not allowed to mingle with men in many situations

          Yeah, maybe, just maybe, so they won’t get raped and abused by male family members and/or strangers. But no, that’s ‘special treatment’ for the s1uts!

          • lady_black

            Not to mention, the things he’s complaining about are part and parcel of patriarchal cultures everywhere.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Patriarchy is a myth.

          • lady_black

            I see you have never read the Bible.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What about the Bible?

          • expect_resistance
          • lady_black

            What about the Bible. It’s one of the world’s most-read manuscripts devoted to patriarchal bullshit, and a lot of nuts claim to live by it. Only they don’t really live by it, or they would be in prison where they belong. They just pick and choose what suits their purpose at the moment. A common theme throughout is that women are chattel property of men. It was written millennia ago by bronze-age goat herders and still believed to be “inspired” by a lot of people who really ought to know better.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So you want to be above men? Here is my take.

            Men and women each possess highly unique powerful attributes that neither sex can top the other. When a man and a woman conjoin their respective attributes, it creates a union of strength that neither man nor woman can top alone.

          • lady_black

            Who says I want to be “above men?” This is not a zero sum game where when someone “wins”, another “loses.” You have nothing to “lose” but your privilege. That never really belonged to you in the first place. I don’t know what you mean by “respective attributes.” There really is no such thing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Are you kidding me to suggest men and women do not have respective attributes?

          • fiona64

            So, you’re a gender essentialist on top of everything else?

            So I can’t write my name in the snow with pee and you can’t gestate. Big whoop.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, I am just a human being. A male who has issues with the bias against men and boys who are often treated with less dignity than any animal.

          • kitler

            Coming from the guy who thinks there is a bias against him if a woman refuses to gestate the product of his sperm meeting her egg.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your are nuts.

          • kitler

            Really? Then why did you say that women are selfish murderers if they do not feel obligated to gestate the product of conception produced from your semen?

          • fiona64

            Oh, and deciding in advance not to gestate another life-threatening pregnancy means you are “violent, misandrist, and bitter.” Don’t forget that!

          • kitler

            Well I’m glad that *someone* finally divined your true motives, Fiona!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Those women who choose to murder their babies, regardless of who’s semen she accepts is a cold hearted baby murderer.

          • kitler

            Abortion is self defense.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Abortion is murder.

          • kitler

            Then back up that assertion with a logical argument. If you are even capable of rational thought

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Unilaterally presumptuous little girl.

          • kitler

            Is this your way of telling us that you are incapable of rational thought?

          • Shan

            Every sperm is sacred.

          • mark mooroolbark

            You are a very sick person. Get help as quickly as possible.

          • kitler

            Explain, in detail, using science and logic, how I am wrong.

          • P. McCoy

            Weiners are subject to being.kicked, cut off or.otherwise mutilated- ha! If men were so.superior they would have been born with pouches like kangaroos to protect their.Johnsons and family jewels.

          • sputnik

            Look, I know you’re tying to have a good knock-down drag-out, here, but, hey–

            “So I can’t write my name in the snow with pee…”

            I just HAD to try picturing the logistics on that one. :-) Took me a while to recover. :-)

          • fiona64

            I do what I can. Frankly, I *was* trying to inject a little humor into the situation at that point, since Mr. Gender Essentialist had already (in so many words) told us that women were EasyBake Ovens. Like the little oven’s job is to bake tiny cakes, a woman’s job is to make babies.

          • sputnik

            I think you’re just being a little too hard on the guy. Somebody got his dander up with pissy rhetoric. I’m not entirely immune, myself. In person, he’s a peach.

            The problem that you are ALWAYS going to have with “gender essentialism” is that, well?– a woman’s job qua a woman IS to make babies. Step out of that role, and you’re just another human being, deserving of no particular consideration denied to others. Nothing wrong with that, either. Not to put words in the guy’s mouth, but I bet he wouldn’t disagree with me.

          • fiona64

            a woman’s job qua a woman IS to make babies. Step out of that role, and you’re just another human being,

            And so what? The mere possession of a uterus does not mean that a given woman is required to breed … and that was very much what he said.

            He also told me that I was “violent, bitter and misandric” when I said that, since a wanted pregnancy almost killed me 28 years ago, a tubal ligation failure would result in an abortion as soon as I could get to a doctor. I will not put myself at that kind of risk ever again, and my husband is in complete agreement with that.

            It was, according to your friend, my duty to die in the process of gestating a clearly unwanted pregnancy (given the presence of the aforementioned tubal ligation … and yes, they do fail from time to time).

            So, I guess you’ll excuse me for agreeing to disagree about whether or not he is a “peach” in person.

          • lady_black

            No I am not kidding. There is no such thing. Only individuals.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So all individual human beings have the exact same attributes? Is that what you are saying?

          • Shan

            “So all individual human beings have the exact same attributes? Is that what you are saying?”

            No, just that none are better/worse than others, overall.

            We live in a society in order to survive. Everyone has a valuable contribution to make to it.

          • DEDC

            “Everyone has a valuable contribution to make to it…

            …so long as they have a vagina. And in that case, that contribution is simply existing! Gawd I am such a delicious little narcissist! I can turn any man pointing out material harrassment against him around just by saying I get cat-called! Do you know how oppressive having a man whistle at you is?

            HUH?”

            LOL.

          • A. T.

            You’re awfully obsessed with sex. o_o I’m a bit concerned for your mental health at this point. You do have other interests, don’t you?

          • fiona64

            Have you thought about seeking help for your issues?

          • DEDC

            What for? My ‘issues’ aren’t psychopathic. Nor are they enabled by social institutions.

            Yours are both. Quit projecting.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            In other words, everyone is the same. Then you contradict yourself, that everyone has a valuable contribution, insinuating we ARE different from one another.

          • Shan

            “In other words, everyone is the same.”

            No, not in those words at all. We are not all the same. That is not a bad thing. Assigning greater/lesser value to our differences is the problem. Our differences complement each other; that’s why we have them. So that, in all our ways, we can all contribute to the society we live in.

          • DEDC

            “You have nothing to lose but the privilege WE ascribe to you.”

            “IOW, if we want to shit on you, we will invoke your *privilege*.”

            “Plus it makes us feel oh so right. Excuse me while I give myself oral now. Gawd I am so hot!”

          • sputnik

            Now, I don’t go out of my way to read the Bible much, but I read copiously, and I recently ran across this:

            10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. 13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. 14 She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar. 15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. 17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. 18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night. 19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. 20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. 21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. 24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. 25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. 27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. 28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. 29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. 30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised. 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

            Just for re-emphasis:

            14 She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar. … 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. … 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

            As for the rest of it: when, ever, was less expected of men; and is this not a model of beneficial independence and interdependence?

            Maybe this is a woman who has earned her consideration. Or maybe, this woman is someone enjoying full benefit of some “Patriarchy”. As for the common woman AND MAN: I certainly never had it as good as this one! Where’s my goddam vinyard?

            “A system whereby all men benefit at the expense of all women… ” Quit looking for evidence of something which doesn’t/didn’t exist.

          • fiona64

            You do realize that women were chattel during Biblical times, like cows, goats and slaves?

            Or is that what you are trying to say? That we should go back to the days when women were chattel?

          • sputnik

            Some women, yes, evidently. Rather highly self-determined “chattel”, evidently, at times, as well. I even recognize that the word *chattel* is derived from the same root as *cattle*. Precisely what was meant by this term then is unknown and unknowable. We don’t precisely know how women were treated, but we can surmise that, insofar as a detriment to one sex inevitably redounds to the detriment of the other, a general mistreatment of women would have had serious repercussions for civilization in general, and yet somehow it has progressed. I sincerely doubt that women, even if considered under the rubric *chattel*, were treated precisely like cattle, goats, and/or slaves, eh?

            “… that we should go back to the days… ” I’m not saying any such thing, nor am I *trying* to say anything.

            “… for her price is far above rubies.” Invaluable, maybe? :-)

          • fiona64

            I will refer you to this site, which contains numerous scholarly links making very clear what women’s status was during Biblical times. http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm

            Part of the reason Jesus was considered so radical was that he was inclusive in his teachings. After his death, Pauline doctrine became even more misogynistic … almost antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, to be quite honest.

          • expect_resistance

            Bullshit! Most of the world lives under a patriarchal structure. There are only a handful of matriarchal cultures which have survived.

          • Phil McCracken

            There is no patriarchy nor flying spaghetti monster under your bed. Don’t be afraid, if your life sucks it’s not teh menz fault, look in the mirror.

          • lady_black

            My life is great, and that isn’t because of “teh menz” either.

          • Phil McCracken

            Modern civilization was built by men so it’s only safe to assume you live in a grass hut with no internet. Oh wait! Don’t blow me, just go away.

          • A. T.

            Yes. No women helped at all. *eyeroll* It was the male only civilization.

          • Phil McCracken

            Well, women did open their legs and give birth. After that they bitched at men until they built the modern world, so, in a way, they did have a part in it. You don’t get respect for that. Try harder.

          • kitler

            How could women have built modern civilization if they had only ever been property and could not even receive an education or own property? (Which meant female inventors could not own their own patents).

          • A. T.

            He’s ignoring the interventions and building they did or helped with anyway. He’s got his delusion crap going on. What a shining example of an MRA seeking equality.

          • Phil McCracken

            You did nothing, Ok, so Fuck off vand shut the fuck up!

          • A. T.

            Nope. I won’t, darling. :) You’re such a flirt.

          • Unicorn Farm

            So men prevented women from participating in society and building the modern world, and now are complaining and blaming women for not helping… hmmm. Doesn’t seem logical to me.

          • fiona64

            There’s the MRA position in a nutshell … So men prevented women from participating in society and building the
            modern world, and now are complaining and blaming women for not helping

          • Unicorn Farm

            A three year old could figure out the flaw in the logic. It’s incredible, really.

          • DEDC

            Yup. Every time a man went out to build a hut or do some farming, he strapped that bitch down and gave her twelve lashings with his penis.

          • A. T.

            You don’t get respect for the ability to open your mouth and spew BS. Try harder. :)

          • DEDC

            “My life is great, and that isn’t because of “teh menz” either. It’s because of teh wymyns! They all be as hawt as I am”

          • expect_resistance

            I have a great life. I have a great job with a private office with a window. I’m a homeowner with a great husband. I consider myself lucky to have such a great life. I’m not rich or well off but things are good.

          • Shan

            “There is no patriarchy nor flying spaghetti monster under your bed.”

            Don’t be afraid of acknowledging the fact that patriarchy exists. It’s not your fault that it does, and it’s not your fault that you benefit OR suffer from it just because you’re male. I’m white and I have no problem acknowledging the same things about white privilege.

            Use it for the power of good.

          • DEDC

            “Use it for the power of good. I just looked at my own ‘goodness’ in the mirror a few seconds ago (and will again in a few more seconds). I really am gorgeous! Gawd I am so righteous!”

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Because they don’t work. I would like to see what our world would be like if it were developed by women, without men.

          • Shan

            “I would like to see what our world would be like if it were developed by women, without men.”

            I wouldn’t. That would be as fucked up as a patriarchal world.

            Everyone is valuable.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Right.

          • Shan

            Glad we have something to agree on, then.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not really. Women are doing a fine job F ing up the world right now.

          • Shan

            “Women are doing a fine job F ing up the world right now”

            Since when? Currently, women hold just 1% of the world’s wealth. And that’s more than it used to be. In what universe does that equate to women having the ability to F up the world?

          • Mike Brentnall

            His reply is not referring to holding wealth, Shan.

            Although this one percent holding of wealth is debatable. For many years women have held and spent their share of someone else’s wealth. Neither party expressed major complaints about it. And each parties both got and didn’t get what they wanted.

          • kitler

            Stop being so reasonable. They can’t demonize you that way.

          • DEDC

            “Everyone is valuable. Except when we can forget them. Which we do all the time. Oh look! Another mirror!”

          • A. T.

            You’ve forgotten women already? Aw.

          • fiona64

            As Queen Latifah said on “Living Single,” a world without men might just mean no crime and a bunch of fat, happy women.

            For the most part, I concur with your assertion … but the answer to the problem is not “let’s put the angry dudes in charge of everything again.” We’ve already seen how well that works.

          • fiona64

            It always amazes me how privilege-blind are those who benefit the most from privilege … like white, cisgendered, heterosexual males, just for instance.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are a bigot. I have no more privilege than you or anyone else. Actually, as a male, I am discriminated against based on that one single element, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or an other factor.

          • fiona64

            I have no more privilege than you or anyone else. Actually, as a
            male, I am discriminated against based on that one single element,
            regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or an other factor.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            You are a riot, buddy. You seriously need to educate yourself. Here are some good places to begin:
            http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
            http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
            http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/11/30-examples-of-male-privilege/
            http://www.iub.edu/~tchsotl/part2/McIntosh%20White%20Privilege.pdfhttp://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

            My favorite link of the lot, I’ll admit, is the last one, by author John Scalzi. Here is a prime quote:

            Okay: In the role playing game known as The Real World, “Straight White Male” is the lowest difficulty setting there is.

            This means that the default behaviors for almost all the non-player characters in the game are easier on you than they would be otherwise. The default barriers for completions of quests are lower. Your leveling-up thresholds come more quickly. You automatically gain entry to some parts of the map that others have to work for. The game is easier to play, automatically, and when you need help, by default it’s easier to get.

            I would quote some of the other articles, but I think that Scalzi lays it out in terms that *anyone* could understand. I wouldn’t want to confuse you with too much academic information, after all …

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Now I understand where your skewed thinking comes from.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry, sweetie. Unlike you, I live in RealityLand. If you call reality “skewed thinking,” that explains a lot about what is wrong with you.

          • P. McCoy

            Oh yeah? How much driving while White or walking as a straight male police frisk, search , harassment and brutality have YOU experienced lately?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer
          • P. McCoy

            Unless you’re a celebrity, I don’t open links from enemies. Explain how YOU have been a victim of the above- bet you haven’t not like those victims Elliot murdered!

          • sputnik

            Open his video. I reiterate: HIS video. That’s him and his kid in the video, dig?

          • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

            It always amazes me when bigots spout bigotry that is obvious to everybody except themselves.

          • fiona64

            Oh, sweetie. Are we mad because the big mean feminist called out your little friend?

            I’m sure you’ll feel better when you get over it.

            It is NOT intolerance to a) call out intolerance (such as you MRAs spew everywhere) nor to b) point out when someone needs to check their privilege.

            Of course, that really is the bottom line for you, isn’t it? You’re pissed at what you perceive as a loss of hegemony.

          • goatini

            Suuuuure it is.

          • Phil McCracken

            How is this a patriarchal culture?

          • lady_black

            How is WHAT a patriarchal culture? Saudi Arabia? India? The USA? I’m afraid you need to be more specific.

          • Mike Brentnall

            How is the U.S.A. a patriarchal culture?

          • Phil McCracken

            How?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            The world is rife with rape hysteria. Have a listen to how this hysteria is spread by Jaclly Friedman at Queen’ universtiy in Kingston, Ontario.

            soundcloud.com/user200496785/whats-feminism-got-to-do-with-it-jaclyn-friedman-queens-university-april-7-2014

          • kitler

            So you are asserting that women have universally oppressed men in India? And, out of curiosity, the rest of the world? Are women also the oppressors in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            The young men and women in the audience absorb this kind of destructive propaganda.

    • OldandNavy

      Eh. More of the same. First they laugh and then they fight and then they lose.

      I just hope progress towards equal recognition, respect and consideration of issues affecting both men and women can happen before everyone loses. .. and we will, all of us, if there isn’t any.

    • Phil McCracken

      It’s getting slayed by MGTOW too.

      • Phil McCracken

        Mgtow is men saying No! Without explanation. You honey’s need to get this fact.

        • A. T.

          Good. Please do. The more the merrier.

          • Shan

            I had to look MGTOW.

            I wish the ones who want to would just go get on with it.

          • DEDC

            “I wish the ones who want to would just go get on with it.”

            The ones who want to wish you would let them. Hell, you busybody phlegminists can’t even leave alone a relatively unknown convention on legitimate issues (what, because they didn’t consult you?)!

  • OldandNavy

    Anti-feminism is an anti about an ideology. Feminism is an ideology. Women are human beings….. not an ideology. Duh. MRAs, as those in the conference are in no way anti-women or somehow woman haters.

    The insistence to that idea is blatantly disingenuous.

    If they were misogynistic haters of women why would so many respected individuals such as Erin Pizzey, senator Anne Cools and Barbara Kay (who advocate and act strongly for both women’s and men’s welfare and rights) choose to speak at their conference?

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com John Narayan

      Feminism is an ideology. Women are human beings….. not an ideology.

      Well said.

      • A. T.

        And most feminists are women and if you’re calling women c***s, bitches and whores, there’s an issue. I don’t refer to men, even men I dislike, that way.

        • TPH

          Sure you never called a guy a creep, or A-hole, or dick?

          • A. T.

            In a one to one argument where I lost my temper? Yeah. Do I go around referring to men that way? No. Do I write articles that refer to men that way? No.

            Men deserve more respect than ‘all men are pigs’ and so do women.

          • DEDC

            If you have ever referred to a man you didn’t know that way or knew someone who did, or knew someone who knew someone who did, it is EXACTLY THE SAME as doing it yourself according to this retarded line of responses.

            You have no moral high ground here.

          • A. T.

            It is not the same as writing an article and doing it proudly and deliberately, let alone repeating myself in the article to so everyone knows all men are pigs or whatever my insult would be.

            Cool story, bro.

          • lady_black

            Oh I most definitely have called “a guy” those things. You will never hear me say that about *all* men. I’m married to the best man in the whole world, and I have sons that are really super. I have male friends. I think the world of all of them. I would never demean men by comparing them to you Peter Pan types.

          • DEDC

            Nor will you hear one of these MRAs refer to *all* women this way.

            What is your point? Other than you are fishing for things to get offended about?

          • A. T.

            I can give you quotes where it was used for all/most women, as part of Diana Davidson’s continual quest for shock value and/or demeaning women.

          • DEDC

            Even if she was totally serious and not for shock value, this point is completely irrelevant. Show me how her words have directly translated into material opppression (not felt, or ‘poor me’ oppression) against women.

            Yet this kind of thing happens to men all the time. I would never say that a man being portrayed in some TV sitcom ior commercial (although this happens often) as a bumbling idiot as the ‘oppression itself’. These are cultural attitudes which serve to corrupt actual institutions to MATERIALLY destroy men and to demonize masculinity itself. Now you can point out and say that technically men aren’t legally supposed to be ‘discriminated against’ either. Yet, these images of men and masculinity are so toxic they tend to overrule and overrun legality itself. And nobody cares. And even when they pay attention, it is just another case of “oh shit, we can’t have men’s rights discussed”.

            And what do women have? All women have to do is ‘hint’ and discrimination and everyone comes running. Or complain about what someone said to them in the street. Well, what are you going to do about it? Complain to your goddess? That is not real oppression. Grow some metaphorical balls. Jeez.

          • A. T.

            You changed your goal posts. Isn’t that odd. I answered your claim. Checkmate.

          • Joe Raypen

            But where does it come from, this resentment of women, if not real?

            I would submit to you it in fact is real; that when a young man enters college he sees all around him women’s clubs, women’s services, and an entire faculty called women’s studies. Why are you so surprised there is resentment?

          • A. T.

            You can have resentment and not be abusive. I object to abusive crap. If you want to have a reasonable or even angry, but mostly reasonable discussion about why you’re mad, how I can help or whatever? Hey. Or heck, if you just want to vent without being abusive to women every other week, go wild.

            I’m not sure that’s always it, because even women didn’t have clubs or women studies? There were men that were still resentful.

          • Shan

            Joe doesn’t seem to realize (because he probably never needed to) that colleges were set up for hundreds of years JUST FOR MEN. Women’s clubs, women’s services and women’s studies are brand spanking new because WOMEN in higher education are as well.

            FFS, this is what that the Irish-named asshat freaked out on me for pointing out before. Young man is resentful because his heretofore exclusive space is now co-occupied by OTHERS the institution was never designed to accommodate and he now feels “marginalized” because (gasp) the institution is trying to help the co-eds fit in?

            Again with the boo fucking hoo.

          • A. T.

            Well. Yes. I was trying to explain that I don’t care about venting, reasonable or silly, if it’s done without abuse. If someone is being unreasonable, but there aren’t hurting anyone? I can deal with that. It’s when it becomes abusive that it’s a problem that I care about.

            Your point is entirely valid.

            Ha. If this gentleman starts, I will whip out the child labor links. I am prepared this time! There are stronger points to the men’s rights movements than women’s only clubs, though yes, men should get clubs too if they lack them. Everyone should have a party, yay!!!

          • Shan

            “Everyone should have a party, yay!!!”

            LOL! Yes, they should.

          • Joe Raypen

            Feminism states that gender exists along a continuum…so when you sleep with your husband, you’re fucking – at least in part – Peter Pan. Your sons are also a little Peter Panny. Cheers!

        • Mike Brentnall

          You are invited to learn a little more about some of the real raw unpleasant experiences that young men encounter with members of those who hold up another half the sky. Those to whom you seem now to be defending.

          Some of the more visceral comments you’ve described above, although I cannot speak for their individual experiences, are perhaps due to young men not having a place to express them. Young aware men living within a culture where feminism (equality?) is the norm yet forbidden from speaking critically about what they see and have experienced.

          From years of personal observation I’ve noticed people of both sexes become markedly uncomfortable when a female is criticized. It is as though criticism of the female sex is verboten. Whereas, for years, pre or post feminism, I’ve observed how easy it is for males of all ages to receive varying degrees of open criticism. And most people seem to have no problem with this.

          AVFM publishes many articles relating to men’s issues and is not responsible for the words of individual commenters. The commenters alone are responsible. If that is the manner in which they choose to be known by then that is their decision. AVFM
          will ban or block those who espouse violence. I’ve seen the memos and the swift action when violent language surfaces.

          If vile comments are disturbing try to at least discover why those who express them feel as strongly as they do. Without ascribing to them a pre-determined conclusion.

          • A. T.

            Mike: I’m not sure how or where your got the impression that women escape these experiences, especially with MRAs? It is an inaccurate impression. So I focus on the behavior, rather than the group. AVFM is a target because of continued, predictable behavior.

            No. That is not an excuse for abuse, anymore than it is for a woman. And they have twitter, reddit and quite a few places where they speak very, very loudly. If you tweet on certain topics, you can even have them come find you to talk.

            Criticize is not the same as abuse. I can support or at least note a criticism is fair or have points. I probably won’t enjoy it, because I prefer to get along, but I can rightly note the purpose. With abuse? there is none of that.

            The all men are pigs comment and such? Yeah. That’s not okay for the reasons you mentioned and more. I don’t think people have the problem insulting women you think, but I’m happy to say both should go.

            Did you try to discover why RadFem posters felt as strongly as they did? I doubt it. Because you knew it was awful and wrong. You can’t reason with hate. It’s just an invitation for pain. I don’t mean your comments, I mean the ‘women are inferior and holes for me to use’ sort. There’s no point and I deserve better, honestly.

          • Mike Brentnall

            “Mike: I’m not sure how or where your got the impression that women escape these experiences, especially with MRAs?”

            Not familiar with your writing style so not quite clear on what you wrote.

            What do you mean by, “I’m not sure how or where your got the impression that women escape these experiences,…”
            Escape? What experiences? Are you referring to the experiences of the young men I wrote about or…the experiences of women?
            I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

            I wrote: “You are invited to learn a little more about some of the real raw unpleasant experiences that young men encounter with members of those who hold up another half the sky.”
            Meaning that some young men have had unpleasant experiences with young women.

            I wrote: “Some of the more visceral comments you’ve described above,although I cannot speak for their individual experiences, are perhaps due to young men not having a place to express them. Young aware men living within a culture where feminism (equality?) is the norm yet forbidden from speaking critically about what they see and have experienced.”.
            Meaning that young men have expressed themselves with emotion (visceral) resulting from perhaps not having an acceptable place to express themselves regarding their experiences with young women or with feminism.

            Some express themselves and their experiences within men’s oriented blogs where they are free to express them. This expression may not be liked but what some young men have experienced isn’t liked by them as well. Or others.

          • A. T.

            ‘ little more about some of the real raw unpleasant experiences’ – This was what I was referring to when I mentioned women have ‘these’ experiences with men/MRAs and sometimes quite often. I considered that relevant, because we went into behavior and what is (presumably) acceptable, not because we have to talk women every time we talk about men.

            I’m definitely aware that some men have had some really unpleasant experiences with women.

            I’m not going to be okay with abuse, if that’s how you define expression. I do hear you about needing room to vent and being given space.

          • Mike Brentnall

            “This was what I was referring to when I mentioned women have ‘these’ experiences with men/MRAs and sometimes quite often.”
            Thanks A.T. for your clarifying a bit more.

            I, at times, lament over what I see as an unnecessary circular drama regarding relations between the sexes. I will begin by making one point using the paragraph immediately below. Then others from that.

            At my (our) disposal are many articles and opinions about matters pertaining to current Israeli/Arabic/Palestinian relations. I find these politics overwhelming at times as not only are there so many points and counterpoints being made that can muddy the landscape but that these relations go back in time hundreds and more years. Who is right/wrong, is difficult to determine as in human relations I suppose all are to some extent.

            Comparatively, the current sexual politics landscape historically goes back a mere 100 and more so years, thus a little more easy to understand. Who started what, why, when and how is readily traceable without a major Herculean effort. How our/this culture had evolved socially and legally through custom then commonality then codification is on record. The flux of current society was spawned from years of development from rudiments. It was what it was at any given time, including, as always, things that made sense and not. This is inescapable as it is our past, regardless of revision.

            The more modern feminism organized around a number of things including universal suffrage, the franchise or the vote. Female suffrage occurred roughly 20 to 30 years after the common man was successful at attaining it. But this organized feminism evolved into keeping busy petitioning for matters pertaining to women while many the common unorganized labouring man was out earning a keep for the size of his family – those to whom he was legally responsible for. Much the same structure continued intermittently up to years of the ‘sexual revolution’. Organized and unorganized feminism took more strides into real or imagined purpose and ends during this period, while the men were still out of the house providing standards of family living . Roughly 20 years into the sexual revolution government funding was supplied to feminist led women’s concerns. No comparative organizing or funding was considered for men’s concerns. Relatively speaking, none. Massive amounts of government supplied funding for female issues has become the norm since. This funding, supplied by the way, by mostly from the paycheques of the working man of any sized or coloured collar. This led to whole governmental departments, services and campus faculties devoted to women’s or female concerns. Progress this to the point where it is commonly assumed by varying amounts of the population to grant feminist led female concerns upon many national affairs. This single-mindedness has evolved into or created a social imbalance that now influences public thought on many if not all levels – including, as a result, an ill will toward boys and men. Various academics have played their part in shaping this. As one example, you’ve heard this ? –

            “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.”
            — Mary Daly, philosopher and former professor at Boston College (women’s studies and others); “No Man’s Land”; What Is Enlightenment? (Fall/Winter 1999).

            This thinking, this obvious show of contempt and hatred has influenced others, upon others to some extent to where it is even deemed acceptable to fictionalize callous, violent and outlandishly disrespectful treatment toward men and boys on advertising, televised and motion picture dramas. Over time organized and funded feminism has had a hand in this and many more not associated with but influenced by a lop-sided accounting of relations between the sexes has perpetuated what has become outward contempt and callous indifference toward boys and men in real time as well.

            So, you tell me, who is more effected by the raw and the experiential from what I’ve written so far? Some may argue that young women exclusively are. Others, and I say rightfully, argue that young men are mostly effected by this. Some young men sensing something is wrong and out of order, are not happy, even though they cannot articulate such in a manner acceptable to custom or the sensibilities of others. The dam has leaks, it appears. Raw, brash language is apparently threatening to some but social relations resulting from 40 odd years of well funded feminist lobbying are threatening the perceptions of and the well-being of boys and men. This lop-sidedness is unprecedented in all of human history. And is about to change.

            Try not to get too distracted from the words of the inarticulate and/or hurting. There is a dearth of understanding regarding the issues of boys and men. Addressing these concerns is part of the ‘equality’ equation. And there exists a growing body of those who can and do articulate well.

            “I’m not going to be okay with abuse,…”
            Abusive is not a one-way street. What has surfaced from decades of one-sided lobbying can definitely be regarded as abuse (of authority, of latitude, of trust). The difference in this matter of abusive is one’s point of view. Either all see it or we’re back to sniping at each other in a circular drama. One leads to the other, including awareness about each other and its ensuing respect.

            “…if that’s how you define expression.”
            It’s there whether any or all like it or not. It will pass. Abusive expression can be a consequence of something else. I’ve put forth some background of that something else. We’re all effecting each other to some degree. Simply eliminating one of a dually occurring offense isn’t going to work.

            Divisions have been made but they will be reconciled.

        • Cenobite

          “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable
          political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the
          class that is oppressing them.” – Robin
          Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

          “To call a man an
          animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas

          “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a
          high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea
          Dworkin

          “Rape is nothing more
          or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all
          women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller

          “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to
          hurt men.” — Sharon Stone

          “In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is
          rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful
          consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon

          “The proportion of
          men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.”
          — Sally Miller Gearhart

          “Men who are unjustly
          accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

          “All men are rapists
          and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French

          “Probably the only
          place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison,
          except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.

          • A. T.

            Yes. Horrible comments by RadFems or anyone else should be called out. Happy to join you in that. While one or two of those are out of context, plenty are not.

            In case that is not clear enough: Men not evil, men are worthy of respect and dignity and should be treated as such. There’s no place for crap like that.

          • DEDC

            Well? As Auntie Alias Futrelle is saying in this thread: What are you doing about it?

            Calling out comments (which after all, are only words) only when they are pointed out to you, doing it in an insignificant comment thread of an insignificant and under a disingenuous article, likely in an attempt to locally disarm your opponents, doesn’t amount to diddly I am afraid. Sorry, no kudos forthcoming. Debate Esmay in public and maybe you will get a modicum of respect (depending on your behavior/performance in that forum).

          • A. T.

            I’m going to see if I can find documentation of Sally Miller Gearhart’s stuff and what it looks like it context. Then I’m going to figure out how I’m going to address the U of O.

            And I don’t want your kudos, I’d like you to get a hobby. But that’s not going to happen. So carry on. Blah, insult, blah blah.

          • dreamjoehill

            Sorry to jump in here, but I think you have a great point that hate speech is not tolerable.
            Men’s Rights is a movement that’s responding to changing gender roles. It’s a new movement, but it’s growing rapidly. Like many social movements, there is a level of anger that sparks it, but that anger must be channeled into constructive social change. Part of that involves discouraging the channeling of anger into hateful or destructive paths.
            The feminist quotes listed above are mostly quite old, and stem from the 70’s & 80’s when feminism was a newer, angrier movement that hadn’t refined it’s rhetoric.

          • Shan

            ” Like many social movements, there is a level of anger that sparks it,
            but that anger must be channeled into constructive social change.”

            That’s a good point. 25 years ago, I was reading a lot of Andrea Dworkin and was very angry (nice little vicious circle there). It didn’t take me long to realize that maintaining that level of anger was not only NOT helpful to anybody – including myself – but actually destructive.

          • A. T.

            You’re suggesting the Men’s Rights movement will also change and adapt with time? That is a fair point.

          • Shan

            God, I hope so.

          • A. T.

            Heh. I hoping. Men need the advocacy. The rates of homelessness and suicide alone are heart breaking. That’s not touching the rest of a long, long list of issues.

          • Shan

            True. Everybody in that bad a situation needs advocacy. I’ve done it myself, volunteering at a local interfaith organization.

    • fiona64

      MRAs, as those in the conference are in no way anti-women

      BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

      Thanks, I needed a laugh this afternoon.

      • Mateusz82

        Such a reasoned and well-supported refutation.

        • http://akseiya.deviantart.com Michał Lech

          Yeah, the original post surely called for one.

          • Mateusz82

            Yes, it did.

      • LikkiCurry

        Are you 12?

    • A. T.

      Except AVFM consistently publishes anti-women rhetoric. You can’t write awful crap about women and tell me it’s just feminism. I’ve read the crap. You apparently haven’t or you’re just okay with women being referred to like that.

      But you’ll turn around and cry misandry. No. No time for that crap. It’s wrong or it’s not.

      • http://www.jimbyset.wordpress.com Jim Byset

        No – we don’t. That’s bullshit.

        • A. T.
          • Peadair

            You’ve read those articles in full?

          • A. T.

            I had the joy of reading them, yes.

          • Peadair

            And you believe they are “Anti-women or display hatred(fixed spelling) of women”?

          • Peadair

            You are still posting but haven’t replied to my question, could you pleases answer it, because I wouldn’t want to misunderstand your view on those articles.. Do you believe they are “Anti-women or display hatred(fixed spelling) of women”?

          • A. T.

            Yes, I believe they are anti-women. Hatred is not the proper word in retrospect, as one can be degrading and not hate something, necessarily.

          • Peadair

            I agree that none of those articles show the hatred of women.

            I would disagree with you regarding them being anti-woman. All of the articles are critical of women, and often men too. But being critical of a group does not mean you are anti that group. Being critical can help people change for the better.

            As for degrading, the truth can be degrading, as can lies. You haven’t stated if you believe that any of the content in the articles may be true, just that it is degrading. Don’t blame the messenger if the message is true.

            Here is an article I wrote for AVFM.
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/just-plain-crazy/when-is-murder-manslaughter/

            Now am I anti-woman, or am I critical of what appears to be a gross injustice? Am I degrading women, or am I just critical of a pervasive instinct in our society to infantilise women, to treat them as less capable, as less culpable than men?

            I believe in equality and justice.

            If a man had committed that crime, he would have been found guilty of murder and would have been sentence to life.

          • A. T.

            The “primal forces” that motivate women relate principally to resistance to change, narcissism and fear… for example, fear of being left on the shelf, fear of not finding a provider to provide for her, fear of novelty and fear of the unknown. David DeAngelo tells us that attraction isn’t a choice, and on this, we can only concur. The thing that excites women about dominant men does not relate to anything as calculated as guaranteeing offspring with lots of resources. That’s nonsense. While women are attracted to power and success, they are never attracted to plodding providers. And you only have to look at women’s dumb choices to realize that if we left it up to them, the next generation would be swinging from tree to tree
            _____________________________________

            If she were categorically reproved as many as three or four times, she would imagine that the whole world is against her. A man can conclude that one man with courage is his own majority and it renders him invulnerable to criticism. A woman cannot. She is too reliant upon consensus. What is more, she is naturally more risk adverse. Risk is something men are supposed to take. A small handful of reproofs are enough to make her reconsider her behavior. There is too much at stake.

            ___________________________

            By inference, the mature female human, at the end-point of her provided-for trajectory, has an atrophied brain in comparison to the male.

            _______________

            If you don’t consider that anti-women and consider it helpful criticism, I don’t think we have a lot to discuss.

          • Shan

            Quote marks! Quote marks!!!

          • A. T.

            Sorry. ._.

          • Shan

            I only meant that just so that it’s clear that it’s not YOU saying those things. For your own sake, because it’s not that I think you would. Or did. You know what I mean.

          • Kimski

            And despite realizing it is NOT misogyni, I have a C-note here saying you’re going to label it in exactly the same way, next time you hear or read something similar. Thus is the power of ideological brainwashing from infancy, combined with inherited female solipsism and narcissism.

        • A. T.

          I’m limited in selection as I’m at work- I have to go by what I had on twitter and available, but there’s some fun stuff in there.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You rob your employer by playing here all day?

          • Unicorn Farm

            You, I assume, are unemployed.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You assume wrong farmer unicorn.

          • A. T.

            I have moments of downtime between clients.

      • TPH

        Anti-feminism rhetoric, not anti woman. The two are not mutually intertwined. One’s a gender, the other is a political movement.

      • OldandNavy

        I didn’t cry misandry. Assigning people thoughts? Don’t have time for that tripe.

        What have you read on AVFM that was anti-women or displayed a hated of women? Identify the piece and I will go read it myself. I’m actually pretty ingested in your view on their writing – and the reasons you feel as you do about them.

        • A. T.

          I will apologize for assuming. I did project there, based on past experience. And I’m happy to provide to examples.

          http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/

          The tumblr (it starts at the bottom) contains links to AVFM articles. There are screenshots *and* links. If someone does not work, please tell me and I will fix it.

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/understanding-the-dumb-choices-women-make/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/why-men-are-more-intelligent-than-women/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/mounting-the-throne-of-peter/

          http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/lessons-from-nature-brain-in-a-vat/

          Take your pick.

          • DEDC

            Hypersensitive are we? That time of the month?

          • sputnik

            Interesting. I picked the last five. I read all five, and took notes to the tune of 600 words while doing it. As I’m a relative newcomer to AVfM, they were all new to me. I found nothing anti-woman about them, though I did find come cold, hard observations about some (or most) women, and one about some men –“It is well established now that PUAs, as performing seals begging for fish, routinely work themselves into a lather…” Love it, “Codebuster”!

            Yes, there is much that is “anti-some women”, after a fashion, but mostly, it’s anti-some women’s *behavior*, and women’s behavior can change. Women are not fixed quantities; they’re human beings with the full potential of being human. Most women, in my experience and estimation, are simply lagging in this regard, not so much by nature but because they’ve been fed a load o’horse hockey by— WOMEN! Only Angry Harry’s article seemed to play it otherwise, regarding his evident belief in the fixity of relative average intelligence levels, and if I ever have the honor of meeting the fellow, I’ll smack him upside the head with a lick o’observational firewood, just for you, A. T! (It’s his psych indoc showing.)

            You may not like the observations in evidence as bases for the arguments found in these articles, but we ignore sound observation very much at our peril. Janet Bloomfield, aka Judgybitch, gets this, and here’s an article by her that really makes the point. It brought tears to my eyes, boy howdy, and here’s a link for your perusal. (Peruse: “to read closely.”)

            http://judgybitch.com/2013/05/20/harvard-phd-student-finds-a-correlation-between-race-and-iq-harvard-students-says-even-if-its-true-it-shouldnt-be-a-topic-of-research-everybody-is-wrong/

            Now that we’ve gotten that little squabble out of the way, it remains that the article at which we’re all commenting remains a piece of deliberate mendacity by an arrant fool. (Arrant: much worse than merely errant.)

            After all, on the whole, in aggregate and in essence, feminism functions as one gigantic, indiscriminate, false accusation. ‘S what it is. And that shit’s gotta go.

          • A. T.

            1) Do you could the prime drive of man to be narcissism?

            2) Do you consider women to be without conscience, essentially sociopaths as a whole? (It said majority of Western women.)

            This is short, but those two questions will help shape the longer reply you will get after work tomorrow.

          • sputnik

            No, and no, although women manifest a significantly greater degree of narcissism than men, on an individual by individual basis, in general. This leads to less “conscience”, less empathy, in practice.

            The problem arises from an unfortunate natural phenomenon, “nature” being not perfect, as if evolution had stopped happening because all was now perfect.

            Women ovulate covertly, unlike just about every other species on the planet. As I commented elsewhere, it’d be so good for us guys if y’all did the colorful estrus thing, or if *randy* were a smell, once a month, so that we could stop thinkin’ ’boutcha the rest of the time. But, given that the female o’this species may be sexually available at any time, I gotta be paying high quality attention all the damn time, or I’m going to be out-competed. This may have some survival value for the species, but — and it’s the law of unintended consequences, again — it becomes a fixation.

            Now, imagine that we’re conversing face-to-face, and as I talk to you, I’m staring at your mouth. Where’s your attention going to go? To your mouth.

            If you step out of a city building onto the sidewalk and find everybody looking in the same direction, where you gonna look, you sheeple, you. :-)

            One’s attention directs another’s attention.

            So this steady imbalance of a real intensity of attention from men to women redirects women’s attention onto themselves. Now, we’re both fixated. Wunnerful.

            *POOF* Gynocentrism.

            And, as ‘Tis better to give than to receive, the receiving end in this scenario becomes subtly degraded. It works as if a moral wrong were being continuously committed. But don’t get me wrong; in my philosophy, responsibility is 100% yours, AND SIMULTANEOUSLY 100% mine. That’s the way responsibility works.

            Men are no less responsible for these fixations than women.

            Now, you may not like this hypothesis, and I don’t, either — though mostly only because you might not like it — but I can’t find a way around it. It works to explain all the observed phenomena, it doesn’t require that I postulate into existence any heretofore unobserved phenomena to fill in any gaps, and it has predictive value.

            It explains why women have felt men to be in control, when men have felt controlled. It explains why those men who conduct their sexual relationships, even in monogamy, with a certain devil-may-care aloofness, do “better”, more or less, in general. It explains why it is so difficult for men to buck the status quo in this regard without considerable societal disapprobation.

            It predicts the narcissism, and let us neither exaggerate nor diminish, btw. It is what it is, and only to the extent that it is. But it is, without fingerpointing or belittling moral rhetoric.

            Let’s elevate it the status of theory.

            The ramifications are enormous!– but the solution is remarkably simple, if perhaps unpalatable to most women. The theory even predicts that it will be just so unpalatable.

          • A. T.

            Re: Angry Harry- Just observational firewood and no literal firewood, please.

            Re: JudgyBitch- Her light skin comments were ignorant enough I banged my head against the wall. I did appreciate the observation about the effect poverty can have on children, including lack of food. I think there was a bit more to the story than that re: his racism, but I honestly don’t care enough to look it up just now.

            A comment that calls all Western women sociopaths *is* anti-women. Even you, with your dim view of women’s behavior, noted this was not true. You also overlooked the cute article that started one of our primary drives was narcissism.

            Your world view is quite alarming to a shy introvert. o_o I don’t like it- I don’t like attention. You did note equal responsibility, so I’m still listening.

            As to whether I agree, I don’t think there’s accurate pieces. I think some men clearly focus on women and some women take that and run with it. But some men also focus entirely on themselves and their wishes and I see society organization around power and who is close to power far more than women. Poor women, I assure you, are disposable when necessary. They used to be far more disposable and still are in many places.

            Teh is from lolcats, I think.

            There are some radical feminists that had or did have undue influence. Sheila Jeffries and others hurt quite a few people. I don’t think we should pretend this has happened only with feminists, but I will certainly concede it.

            oligarchy. <— Yes! It makes me crazy when people think feminists rule, as much as being a piece of a puzzle. Influential or not, we're hardly only and there are MANY other groups.

            Ha. I think you overestimate me, as awesome as I am. My goal is to be good to the men, women and children around me and do good in my community. That I *can* do.

            Heh. It's rather upsetting to me, that you feel like you have to yell and possibly be awful to be heard. It really is. I'd better for you. And I don't care if you drop out because you want to, but I'd like it to not be an 'I *have* to thing'.

            ..I'm sorry is inadequate, but I'm not sure there are adequate words.

          • sputnik

            The straight male who is not fixated on the female is rarer than frog-fur. The sum of all this attention, in aggregate, is a powerful social force. It’s what society runs on, in a manner of speaking.

            My dim view applies to all humans, though I will admit to finding women’s behavior in a dimmer light. And yet, as I said or implied, women’s lower standard of behavior is a result of being on the receiving end of the worsening attention imbalance since the beginning of whenever.

            Poor men are the more disposable, I assure you in my turn; government programs effectively remove them from the family, supplanting them by offering money to the Mom only if he’s not around. Moms are valued. Dads?– who needs ‘em!

            And let me be quite clear: you PERSONALLY can reverse the situation within your sphere of influence. Women, acting in some large minority in concert, could revese the situation overnight. Because i am a man, I, myself, personally, can do precisely NADA on my own about this, in ANY sphere. I HAVE to ally myself and my efforts with a group that can make mucho noise, like AVfM, and it’s all about a wider social impact, not about me. Guys are s’posed to siddown and shuddup.

            And we gotta fight just to get truthful journalistic coverage. This shit jus’ ain’t even nearly real. I was there. I know.

            Sorry if it seems awful, but the truth comes unvarnished. Re. those articles: If there’s a little froth in the spilling, well, shit happens. These people in and around AVfM are some of the most insightful people I’ve encountered, and I assure you that I’m no dummy, no fawning acolyte, not lacking for discernment.

            Thus, nothing I do within the Men’s Issues arena is for myself in the slightest, unless, like, this one life is not all there is, and I have to come back as a man again. There’s an expansive take on responsibility for you.

            When it’s impossible to make time for a relationship because you’re a divorced Dad working two full-time jobs while hoping to have a moment for your kid, you’ve BEEN dropped out. But sometimes fate has a way of dropping shit on you…

            When it becomes dangerous to be a guy interested in sex… I was also once offered a classic, text-book “date-rape opportunity”, just after I was divorced. These situations always arise from complexities, so it’s a long story, but I never could quite fathom how two sentient, intelligent beings could be so oblivious as to fail to communicate to that degree. Certainly, I’d never hang out with such a person, even by accident, right? Most intelligent, literate, musically talented, fine wine drinkin’ motorcycle-ridin’ woman (my interests, precisely!) and our daughters were magically best friends. Most shit-together person I’d ever met. I’d fallen in love, and she knew what I was about, because I’d been explicit on the approach, and explicit on the back away, over several months, when she proved to be unexpectedly insane, very literally insane, and admittedly, ceaselessly promiscuous. And then there she was, puttin’ it in my face, again.

            Well, this was the most narcissistic, callously insensitive treatment I’d ever been subjected to, and I told her so, and walked away from the set-up. And I still had to see her from time to time because of the kids.

            Game over. Been over ever since. Dig: it’s not my loss — not any loss at all — if there was nothing out there worth winning in the first place. And by *nothing*, I mean to say too rare to count. Go play the lottery; it’s only a buck a ticket. It’s a mirage.

            And that’s not even the whole of it. The rest of my life, where women are concerned, has been one step ahead of some near disaster. It’s been weird. I just thank god that I don’t have to work around women. Like hanging with my daughter until recently: walking on eggshells all the time. I’m actually better off having nothing to do with her!

            As far as I’m concerned, humanity in general, and women in particular, are gonna have to step up their game in terms of understanding and ethical behavior. But it’s not going to happen unless men demand it. Something to do with our responsibility for this mess, I think.

            But how do we demand this without being *demanding*? I don’t know, and I don’t care, but if you’re not happy with your life, don’t come complaining to me… And that’s how that works!

            Until then, I’m fine, thank you very much, because I’m taking responsibility for the problem. It’s just a long, slow process.

          • http://akseiya.deviantart.com Michał Lech

            I’ve read all of these some time ago. None of them is anti-women.
            I’m very disappointed with your ability to read a text and actually understand it without desperate attempts to translate every sentence to something better fitting your preconceptions.

          • A. T.

            I’m very disappointed in your complete lack of reading comprehension. It’s a sad statement on the school systems of today. I’m going to go write to my Congressman.

        • DEDC

          She’s femsplaining.

      • DEDC

        Bullshit. AVFM are anti-women like Richard Dawkins is ‘anti-people-but-only-if-they-happen-to-be-christian’.

        Quit whining that your religion is being attacked or that some of your counterpart women are starting to become subjected to deserved real criticism. You should be thanking us for fulfilling the dream feminism has failed on delivering.

      • Mateusz82

        Can you find an example of “anti-women rhetoric”? Such a claim requires evidence.

        • A. T.

          I’ve posted it a couple times throughout this thread. Multiple links. Do any of you read AVFM?

          • Mateusz82

            I did, and found no anti-women rhetoric. In fact, I’ve read many articles on AVFM, and of those, many were written by women. It’s not enough to just post links. You need to post links that back up your claims.

          • A. T.

            I did and have. But here’s a fun quote I’ll leave you with before bed: The real reason men and women cant be friends is that women lack moral agency.

            Moral agency is a person’s ability to make moral judgments and take action that comport with morality. A moral agent is “a individual who is capable of acting with reference to right and wrong.

            I’m not suggesting here that women, as a demographic, are immoral, although a surface reading of behavior might sometimes lead to that impression. Rather, they are amoral – simply lacking in a moral or an ethical compass.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/socialized-psychopathy-modeling-female-misbehaviour/

            If you think that’s not anti-women, you probably should go talk to someone else as I am not interested.

      • http://akseiya.deviantart.com Michał Lech

        You’ve just turned around and cried misogyny at people who oppose feminists. No, no time for that crap.

        • A. T.

          Byeeeeeeeee.

    • LikkiCurry

      You’re doing it wrong, mate. Not glorifying women is exactly what feminists consider “misogyny”. They hate for women to be treated as human beings.

  • sé do bheatha a bhaile

    The journalist who wrote this article wants a “nice” men’s movement, but she’s perfectly fine with misandry. I feel her pain, though. It’s not easy having your sex pilloried and lambasted for all to see. Welcome to a man’s world. We’ve sucked it up for forty long years. Now it’s your turn, bitch. Oh and all those “patriarchs” you see in various halls of government, reveling in power at the expense of women? Guess what? They are fulfilling obligations, to keep our society safe and running. They suffer heart illnesses and die early doing it. You’re gonna learn some respect, yes indeed.

    • lady_black

      Uh yeah. Good luck with your delusions. I will never respect you, but if you come anywhere near me, I just might hurt you.

      • Kimski

        ^Screen grabbed for the collection. Thank you.

        • lady_black

          That’s fine. Just make sure you also “screen grapped” the threat that this post was in response to.

          • goatini

            Oh, I screencapted that one. Chapter and verse all out of “Back To Patriarchy!” by the aforementioned Daniel Amneus.

          • Kimski

            Probably not, since I’m collecting quotes to do an article on the inherited violent nature of women, the learned violence that stems from the primary nurturer, and the effects it has on society as a whole that we refuse to hold women accountable for said violence.
            But I can promise you a much wider audience than you ever imagined, and these quotes will have one thing in common: They all originate from feminist ideologues who blame men for being violent.
            -You know, just to throw in that extra spicy dose of hypocrisy to top it off..

          • redlemon

            You’re like that small kid who constantly badgers and smacks another kid on the playground and then, when that other kid finally hits back, you run wailing to the teacher and show them your bruise to “prove” how much of a victim you are.

          • Kimski

            And you’re like that small kid who gets beat up and stuffed into lockers for being a mindless sheep.

          • redlemon

            Really? And who will be the one beating me up and stuffing me into lockers?

          • lady_black

            Well, sweetie, I can assure you that anyone who calls women bitches and says in a threatening way that he means to “teach them respect” is going to garner a self-defensive response. That isn’t a threat. That’s a promise. That isn’t violence. That’s instinct. And respect is never “taught.” Respect needs to be earned. Make sure you “screen grap” this one too. Wouldn’t want to cherry-pick, would you? Oh right… you already admitted that the only way it works for you is taking it out of context. Never mind.

          • Kimski

            aww, pot meet kettle…Take a closer look at the article you’re here to defend, and then come back and tell me about cherry picking, without sounding like you’re completely cognitive dissonant.
            You guys excel in cherry-picking and qoute mining, to get that hysterical emotional fix you crave so badly.

          • A. T.

            And I’ll be happy to share the screenshots I’ve gotten from this thread, AVFM comment’s section, reddit and many other locations that contain men that claim to want equality and care about men’s rights yet talk about domestic violence, hurting women and more.

            What might the inherited nature be there, you think?

          • lady_black

            Women are not entitled to self-defense from men who want to “teach them respect” don’tcha know?

          • A. T.

            My favorite comments were the ones discussing that men needed domestic violence to keep them in line and that men were only violent ‘when necessary’.

          • Kimski

            As opposed to women being violent whenever they don’t get their way. Just like you see it with children.

          • A. T.

            I hope you see a therapist for your issues.

          • Kimski

            Pathetic shaming attack. Are you going to threaten me next?

          • A. T.

            No. I’m sad that you dislike women. It’s just sad.

          • Kimski

            Tell that to my gf through the past 9 years. She’ll be thrilled to know that you can’t tell the difference between your gender and your ideology. Fits right in with her general view on feminist ideologues and their capabilities for rational thinking.

          • A. T.

            I was going by your negative toward women comments and inaccurate statistics designed to place the blame on women. It was a theme throughout your comments. I am happy to know you can and do have good relationships outside the internet. It certainly happens.

            And somehow, I don’t really care about her opinion on feminism, one way or another.

          • Kimski

            I do. That’s why I chose her. Reduces the irrational and juvenile behavior considerably.

          • A. T.

            Yes, choosing the right partner for oneself is a good decision. Have a cookie.

          • Kimski

            You just can’t help yourself, can you?
            Thanks for once again proving my point in the above.

          • A. T.

            lol. After the Captain Save comment, you’ve got no moral high ground and yes, watch you jump to have the last comment amuses me. :)

          • Kimski

            Projection.

          • A. T.

            *snicker* I’m sure. :)

          • Kimski

            I thought we’d already established that there’s a difference between ideology and gender, but you seem to be a bit slow on the subject. Want me to go over the birds and the bees for you, and then move on to ABC until you get it?

          • lady_black

            Once again, self defense isn’t “violence.”

          • Kimski

            And once again: BS. Any action that causes pain to another human being is violence by definition.

          • lady_black

            By that definition, TOO DAMN BAD. I WILL defend myself.

          • A. T.

            If someone came up and tried to attack me, I would defend myself and I wouldn’t consider that violence. I would have to be attacked first and unable to flee though.

          • Kimski

            Tell that to the children who suffer more than 70% of the DV at the hands of women.

          • lady_black

            Children have a right of self defense too.

          • A. T.

            Accredited sources, please. More than one.

          • Kimski

            Do your own homework or rent a Captain-save-a-ho’..

          • lady_black

            Wrong, sparky. YOU made the claim. that means YOU back it up.

          • wakjob

            The proof isn’t proof because the wrong person submitted it. See how you are?

          • A. T.

            You don’t have them? That’s what I thought. Thanks for playing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I will help you out Kimiski. Here is the irrefutable scientific data you are seeking. http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

          • A. T.

            He claimed toward children. But I’m happy to review the other. Thank you for the link.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So if a woman attacked me would I be in my right to defend against her attack? What do you think would happen to me if I did that?

          • A. T.

            Provided defend yourself meant just that, yes.

            If the law and police worked as they should, nothing. In practice? It varies. Sometimes law enforcement recognizes that women abuse men and that the dynamics vary. Sometimes bias or a clever abuser will carry the day.

          • wakjob

            Now there’s a distinction between violence and “violence.” A perfectly justified act of self defense, if violent, is violence. But it’s not “violence.” I can’t tell you how glad I am to have bought my dictionary before you guys got so serious about rewriting it.

          • A. T.

            You notice he never answered how it was different?

          • Kimski

            Would it have made any difference?
            No.

          • A. T.

            Does that mean you don’t have an answer?

          • Kimski

            No, it means that my answer wouldn’t have made any difference to ideological bigot like yourself, but thanks for showing interest.

          • A. T.

            Which translates to ‘I don’t have retort’.

            Thanks for playing. :)

          • Kimski

            Thanks for proving my point about being childish, since you consider this a game.

          • A. T.

            You’re not engaging in real debate, so I’m not sure what else you’re calling or considering this. Do you consider yourself to be trolling?

          • Kimski

            Natural and perfectly legit human response. Plain and simple.

          • A. T.

            So it would be different for women because…?

          • lady_black

            Self-defense is not violence.

          • Kimski

            BS.

          • A. T.

            How is it different for women? You just said it was a natural perfectly legit human response.

            In the above conversation, he threatened. Why is her response not natural?

            I’d love to hear you explain this.

          • Shan

            Did you get the one from the guy who wanted to slap the piss out of me?

          • A. T.

            I will check.

          • Shan

            Don’t worry about it. I was trying to describe it to someone IRL because it was so unexpected and then when I went to go show it a few hours later, it was gone.

          • A. T.

            ._. I’m sorry he was awful.

          • Shan

            Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

          • Kimski

            She’s dead, but what business is it of yours, anyway?

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        Where do you live?

        • kitler

          Isn’t it obvious? As a feminist, Lady_Black is straight from the pits of hell. She is an actual demon, bent on the utter destruction of the planet earth because hey, feminists are nazis.

          Right?

          /snark

        • lady_black

          On planet Earth. Where do YOU live?

    • goatini

      I heard it all didn’t work out so well for Daniel Amneus, the progenitor of your movement.

    • A. T.

      Yeah. Women are bitches and whores, but we’re the ones with the issue. Cool story, bro.

      I’ll ‘learn some respect’ the day you get a clue. <3

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        We’re bludgeoning feminism. It’s brutal and it’s merciless. You’re just gonna have to eat it.

        • A. T.

          You’re almost cute when you try this hard, but no.

        • lady_black

          In what universe will you be successful?

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Success? I never mentioned that. It’s the bludgeoning which counts, which is fun and gives me great joy.

          • Unicorn Farm

            ” It’s the bludgeoning which counts, which is fun and gives me great joy.”
            You should seek therapy.

          • A. T.

            There is where we hope the unbalanced individual is MGTOW.

        • expect_resistance

          You have a rich fantasy life.

    • fiona64

      Now it’s your turn, bitch.

      One does begin to feel a trifle sorry for these angry little boys … but it takes a long time.

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        I got the “feeling sorry” part, but “it takes a long time” is poor English.

        • fiona64

          Only if one is unfamiliar with idiom.

          Casse-toi, petit fils.

        • lady_black

          I don’t think so.

    • expect_resistance

      Women have put up with the ramifications of thousands if years of patriarchy so fuck you! I am an Eco-feminist anarchist and will fight for women’s equality until my last breath.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    Please allow me to step in and say something,

    “I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” — Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

    “I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.” — Robin Morgan

    “To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” — Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

    “The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things.” — Jilly Cooper, SCUM

    “I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “Q: People think you are very hostile to men. A: I am.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

    “All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French, Authoress

    “Men use the night to erase us.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “The annihilation of a woman’s personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality.” — Andrea Dworkin

    “Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives.”
    — Andrea Dworkin

    “Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it ‘Her’. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination.”
    — Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women

    “On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom.”
    — Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women.

    “The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist” — Ti-Grace Atkinson

    ”Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice.” — Ti-Grace Atkinson

    “Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller; Authoress of Against Our Will p.6

    “When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.” — Sheila Jeffrys

    “Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated.” — Catherine MacKinnon

    “All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman.” — Catherine MacKinnon

    “You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs.”
    — Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

    “The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone; Actress

    “Ninety-five percent of women’s experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive… women didn’t go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo.”
    — Jodie Foster; Actress – as quoted in The New York Times Magazine.

    “The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female.

    “And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference.”
    — Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime

    95% of abused boys in juvenile facilities who reported unauthorized sexual activity with or by a female staff were WITHOUT FORCE, i.e. NOT attacked/coerced– Adele Mercier

    • A. T.

      Let’s see. What year was AVFM founded? SCUM was 1968? Yeah.

      It is horrifying and should be called out. But there’s a tiny difference in oh, age.

      The same with Dworkin. I believe Ms. Miller is still working though, I know Professor Mercier is.

      • Paul Johnson

        It’s a long, long pattern and it hasn’t changed. Elizabeth Sheehy.

        • A. T.

          I will look her up. I have to look into Miller anyway. I believe she has a speaking engagement and if I can find solid evidence of her RadFem crap, I promised to protest it. Whether it will do any good, we shall see.

          This lists a source, which will be helpful.

          • Paul Johnson

            /feminism/elizabeth-sheehy-cant-even-justify-herself-blamefeminism/

            at avoiceformen.

            An article by Diana Davison which is referenced.

          • A. T.

            You know how you guys say you aren’t a monolith? Yeah. I, for example, am a Christian. I read C.S. Lewis, Joyce Meyer and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. I have no desire to read Dworkin. Ever.

            SCUM is not referenced by anyone sane.

            Ms. Jeffries is, if I am correct about her identity, a TERF and shunned by quite a few now.

            I don’t mind conceding problematic origins. I mind the inaccurate assumption that we all get together, read these texts and plot man hating at our weekly meeting. It’s utterly inaccurate.

          • Paul Johnson

            I didn’t know we say we aren’t a monolith. We aren’t, and I don’t know why one would think that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve heard it. The MRM is older and more distributed than you may think. Look at the works of Robert St. Estephe for a history of the MRM.

            The main thing I have a problem with is the relentless misinformation and propaganda, and most notably the core nugget of feminism — the myth of patriarchy. The feminist myth of patriarchy is the least charitable, most one-sided character assassination of all men (and it is used to disparage all men and essentially is the central threat narrative of feminism — men are the bad guys), and does not examine all the exemptions and protections women had, the crap aspects of the men’s side of the deal, and why society emerged that way in the first place.

            My thing is this: If you believe men categorically subjugated and oppressed women for their own gain at women’s expense all throughout history, then you are at best woefully misinformed about human history, and at worst truly a misandrist. Either way, it’s not acceptable to me to hold those sexist views of men and perpetuate them in my presence. I will challenge them every time, and I will not let anyone close to me who harbors those lies.

          • A. T.

            I think Patriarchy is accurate to a point (I note men holding the majority of positions of power and don’t buy women ruling through mind control), but I think systems screw over everyone and that includes men. Poor men, men of color and others *were* disposable. The MRM is quite right about that. They are also correct in that men are not evil, anymore than women. There were and always have been men that loved their families, children, and were generally amazing.

            What I think the MRM misses is that women and children were also disposable at points and to degrees. Street children existed and exist now. Child labor laws had to be invented for a reason. Poor women had the option of working the streets or starving. The idea that women as class were protected, always, is not true. Plenty of women were and are seen as disposable.

            In summary, I think people were and can be awful to each other and that neither sex is evil.

          • Shan

            “The feminist myth of patriarchy is the least charitable, most one-sided character assassination of all men (and it is used to disparage all men and essentially is the central threat narrative of feminism — men are the bad guys),”

            I don’t think you understand either feminism or patriarchy. A.T. makes good points about that, better than what I was going to say because I think she’s younger and more optimistic, which is what we could all benefit from.

          • Paul Johnson

            The next thing I have a problem with is the lack of internal policing of feminism. Whenever one of these monsters gets on their soapbox slanders men to the world, or pushes for sexist legislation, all the “nice feminists” are strangely quiet. But when anyone calls out those toxic monsters on their vitriol, all the “nice feminists” come out of the woodwork to insist that NAFALT.

            Well it doesn’t matter if NAFALT. They’re complicit. They sit back and quietly reap the benefits but come out and play PR machine when someone calls them out.

          • A. T.

            Okay. Let’s start at the beginning. I’m straight and fairly conservative. I don’t (brace yourself) go forums for Lesbian women. Expecting me to not know about and magically police, say, RadFem Hub is silly. Expecting me to do something about women that are *dead* is just stupid. I don’t actually have the power to magically effect women across the globe or what you’re thinking.

            Now. There’s things I can do. I believe Miller Gearhart is speaking near me. I plan to address that. I protest TERF’s, which include Jeffries and others and note their comments on men and others.

            Let’s separate what I reasonably can do from what I cannot do, and ask the former of me.

            I’m not complicit in, for example, a forum I would never go near. Or something in Australia that I’m *not going to hear about 9 times out of 10*.

            It is fair to ask me to help with things in my country, that I might well reasonably hear about.

            We ask you to address AVFM, because you read it, care about it and are here discussing it. I don’t hold you responsible for every reddit or awful person with a blog. See a difference?

          • Shan

            “I mind the inaccurate assumption that we all get together, read these texts and plot man hating at our weekly meeting”

            Perfect LOL! Because I don’t have enough cognitive dissonance to do that and still continue my het relationship or have anything to do with my son.

          • A. T.

            The SCUM thing makes me crazy! I get there’s some scary RadFem people. I’ve seen Witchwind’s work and it was just scary, but dude. I don’t hang out at those places. I don’t know this crap. And everything you said. o_o

          • Shan

            Kinda glad I don’t know what RadFem is but thinking now that I ought to.

          • A. T.

            Scary! Apparently there’s two kinds, but the scary kind are scary. They scare me more than the MRAs, much more. o_o

          • Paul Johnson

            It’s also worth noting that these are feminist thought leaders, prominent authors and “scholars,” not fringe feminists.

        • RiseOfDivergents

          You forgot Adele Mercier

    • expect_resistance

      Talk about out of context. I’m an eco-feminst anarchist and even I disagree with Andrea Dworkin. There are many different philosophies of feminism. Men are feminists too and I value their struggle in the fight for equality.

      • Kimski

        Oh, the NAFALT argument is hardly valid when ENOUGH feminists are exactly like that. And you’re obviously supporting them through your actions.

        • A. T.

          Not true at all. Are you saying AVFM is all MRAs? That every MRA endorses it by their actions?

          • Kimski

            AVfM/MRA is not an ideology, so the question is irrelevant.

          • A. T.

            Why? I believe in the equality of the sexes. I can quite easily pick and choose who I support or not. I didn’t sign some contract that required me to read, follow or support those people.

            Your assumption that I do is inaccurate.

          • Kimski

            You sure spend a lot of time defending something you allegedly don’t support, then.

          • A. T.

            I’m not supporting Dworkin.

          • Shan

            Having read LOADS of her books and been heavily into reading them when I was in my early 20s, I can give that non-support a huge high-five.

  • Heisenberg

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

    • lady_black

      Good Charlie Sheen impersonation. “Winning.”

      • Heisenberg

        Never heard Charlie Sheen use that phrase.

        • A. T.

          ……..Seriously?

          • Heisenberg

            Srsly!

          • fiona64

            Apparently, he thinks the verifiable fact that women make 77-84 cents on the dollar compared to men is a myth! The only gap that is even close, at 93 percent (and still less than men) is amongst younger women. He is indeed fact-free on that one: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/08/on-equal-pay-day-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

          • Heisenberg

            Of course there’s a gender wage gap when you lump all women’s wages with all men’s wages. I’m sorry … it’s not the patriarchy’s fault that surgeons earn more than day care providers. The wage gap all but disappears when apples to apples comparisons of level of education, years of experience, etc are done. Don’t you think that if employers at large, could actually get away with paying women less, that they would only hire women? Paying a person less money than a fellow counterpart employee based on gender is, how do I put this … it’s illegal. Against the law. Prohibited by statue. Verboten. Have I mansplained that well enough?

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry … it’s not the patriarchy’s fault that surgeons earn more than day care providers.

            And female surgeons make less than male surgeons. How about if you try comparing apples to apples, as you state?

            Now, why don’t you go color while the adults talk?

          • Heisenberg

            “And female surgeons make less than male surgeons. How about if you try comparing apples to apples, as you state?”

            I assume you have a source to support this claim? Show me the data ….

          • sputnik

            Your self-righteous condescension is appalling, especially given that you’re arguing from pure ignorance. Again!

            Yes! Female surgeons make less than male surgeons! It’s true!

            Statistically, a male surgeon is far more likely to be the head of his own practice, while she’s more likely to hold an admin position or work for some government office.

            After years of scholarship money — on the public dime — something on the order of 50% of female graduates in medicine or business are simply gone, out of the profession. Mommy time: a noble and necessary thing to do, I might add!

            Farmers have trouble getting service from large animal veterinarians when Bessie goes into labor at 2 am, because approximately 50% of the practicing vets are women.

            See? The big bucks is inconvenient and stressful. Everybody knows how easy it is to effectively lie with statistics. So why do you do it? You gotta know by now that we ain’t a-gonna let you get away with it!

            Now, why don’t you go read up while the adults tackle the issues with personal integrity and discernment!

          • fiona64

            Personal integrity and discernment? From MRAs?

            Wow! Another good laugh, so early in the morning for me. Thank you!

          • Shan

            ” I’m sorry … it’s not the patriarchy’s fault that surgeons earn more than day care providers.”

            Hodor. I mean, fucking…HODOR.

        • lady_black

          Just because you never heard it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

          • Heisenberg

            Water is wet.

          • lady_black

            Well it was specifically when his life and career were crashing and burning because of his coked-up Anti-Semitism (among other coked-up misbehavior). He was his own worst enemy. much like MRAs, but I’m not sure what particular drug is their drug of choice.

          • Heisenberg

            The drug most MHRA’s are addicted to is the truth.

          • lady_black

            What is truth?

          • Heisenberg

            The truth …. you know, reality, ascertainable facts. In other words, Kryptonite to the victim feminist narrative.

          • lady_black

            Well that leaves you out. You have no facts.

          • Heisenberg

            Clearly you are computer literate. Any facts you might want are readily available with a brief Google search. Google “gender wage gap myth” or some variant and see what you find….

          • A. T.

            There’s a racial wage gap, whether or not you believe in the other. Racism also effects things like call backs and more. Lots of research and men that could use advocacy.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            You need to take off your feminists glasses/lens to see it, I know it is impossible for you.

          • lady_black

            It’s a question posed by Pontius Pilate, and never adequately answered. Mainly because “truth” depends upon perspective to a large degree. We’re all a bunch of blind people attempting to describe an elephant. We can’t because we don’t SEE the elephant in perspective, we can only feel individual parts of it. I can see how men are hurt and confused because what they have been taught all their lives to count on isn’t so. I’m sure the slave owners felt the same way. They were too invested in their own sense of privilege to realize the inherent wrong in owning other human beings, from the viewpoint of the other human beings who were owned. Well, some of them could see it. And most people outside the arrangement could see it. Most in the arrangement didn’t see it. Fear not. you will get over your shock and anger, and even if you don’t, you’ll die eventually. That’s what happened to slave owners and it will happen to you too. Either you’ll get over it, or you’ll die not having gotten over it. Either way, it will end.

          • fiona64

            The drug most MHRA’s are addicted to is the truth.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            You guys are on a roll today … keep those laughs a-comin’!

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Seriously! but you are the one who is tripping. LOL

          • fiona64

            Some of your fellow trolls have provided some good laughs … I just don’t think you realize why.

          • Heisenberg

            I love how anything that doesn’t toe the feminist line is dismissed as trolling …. cowardly.

          • fiona64

            So, you deny that all of you are here trolling?

            That’s hilarious.

          • Heisenberg

            I guess what I’m saying is that there seems to be no distinction drawn between trolling and dissent. Of course there are trolls. It’s teh internets.

          • fiona64

            In the case of this article, there *is* no difference between trolling and dissent. Or are you going to deny that your buddies over at AVFM called out the dogs to chew out the “bitches” for daring to report truthfully on your He-Man Woman-Hater’s Club meeting?

          • Heisenberg

            Reporting truthfully? You should really take the time to watch the YouTube videos of the conference. Maybe practice some of the open-mindedness that you wish to see in others?

          • A. T.

            I got told women’s contribution to civilization was spreading our legs. I’m unimpressed with the dissent (with a few exceptions) at the moment.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Sure, I agree, we have made some progress.

            “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
            ~Mahatma Ghandi

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            lol

      • Paul Johnson

        Charlie Sheen? Really? Do you really think Charlie Sheen coined that phrase?

    • expect_resistance

      You’re comparing MRAs to Ghandi? That’s fucked up.

      • A. T.

        A major strategy of Ghandi’s was to degrade women. It’s totally a civil rights ‘thing’.

      • Heisenberg

        Nope … they’re just putting his wisdom to use.

        • Erik Miles

          Yeah…pretty sure Ghandi never had to resort to calling his critics “Whores”, and he certainly didn’t encourage people to “dox” them.

          • Heisenberg

            Of course not. He lacked the technology to dox people.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    Feminism has been promoting hate, violence and call for male genocides for decades:

    Feminists sent death threats to Erin PIzzey, woman who set up the first DV shelter
    for women in modern world. Her misake, she said women can be as cruel
    and violent as men, her dog got shot and she had to spent years in
    exile.
    http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=634038

    Feminists advocating, women who experience abuse from their male partners should
    have the right to kill them in their sleep without fear of being charged
    with murder.
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/12/13/barbara-kay-prof-makes-bizarre-plea-to-place-battered-women-above-the-law/

    Feminists teamed up with liberal academia to advocate for eugenics, mass
    sterilization, and mass murder in the United States.

    Feminists using violence to silence speakers and physically intimidating attendees at University of Toronto
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUb9Yb2ucZI

    Feminists are encouraging women to beat their husbands and boy friends:
    http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have/all

    Feminists calling for male genocide using twitter:
    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23killallmen&src=hash

    7000 Violent feminists attacked and sexually assaulted christian men
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUb9Yb2ucZI

    Recently, feminists sent death threats to double tree hotel and its staffs
    because they are hosting Men’s issues awareness conference,
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/is-doubletree-downtown-hilton-dangerously-negligent-or-just-a-bunch-of-scheming-liars/

    Feminists supporting Twitter campaign #endfathersday: http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/endfathersday-happy-fathers-day-you-piece-of-shit/

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      A breath of fresh air, in an otherwise stiflingly stuffy room

      • Auntie Alias

        The exit is that-a-way. —->

        • RiseOfDivergents

          You mad!
          Facts and feminists are two shores of a river that never meet. LOL

          • A. T.

            ..,..Do you read AVFM?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Yes, I do and I know enough. do you read AVFM regularly??? because I do. I suggest you read especially the articles that came out in last one year. Men have issues and feminists ignore, trivialize and oppose addressing of those issues. There are a lot more anti feminists than MRAs, look at the comment section or those feminists articles.

            Ant feminism is becoming a new humanism. … just my observation.

          • A. T.

            I’m not up to date on the recent articles, I’m working through the archives bit by bit as I have time.

            And yes, men have issues that are trivialized, ignored or otherwise unsupported. When I see non-abusive advocacy happening on those issues, I’ll be happy to support it. I do support things like ‘Just Detention’ or ‘The Sentencing Project’.

            And yes, there’s some unpleasant feminists, along with some wonderful ones. It’s why I don’t think AVFM is all MRAs.

          • Shan

            “It’s why I don’t think AVFM is all MRAs.”

            I’d like to say the same but they’re not being very well represented outside their usual habitat (i.e., here).

          • A. T.

            Yeah. I’ve just met exceptions and it is important to acknowledge they exist.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Kudos to you, I hope you understand that men are human just like women and have problems and issues. Thanks for being open minded.

          • A. T.

            Of course they human beings and have real problems and issues. And you’re very welcome.

          • Auntie Alias

            Well, he’s whining about the atmosphere here. He’s free to leave.

        • Kimski

          The cognitive dissonance is that-a-way^

    • Auntie Alias

      Tedious propaganda pieces rehashed again and again. Guess what? It still doesn’t make virulent misogyny right.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        I let the people who have trust in this news site and in the author of this piece, decide.

        Why are you so mad!

        Let me tell you something, we are here to stay, you can not shame us and we will expose your bigotry and sexism.

        • Auntie Alias

          Sure you will. Just like you did in Detroit. Except not.

    • A. T.

      Do you call out MRA’s that send rape and death threats? Doxxing?

      By the way, I want you to call these things out. RadFem hub was a horror, for example. I’m just curious if you’re conveniently silent if it’s men threatening women.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        Proof or it did not happen!

        You mad!

        • A. T.

          That would be a no. That’s what I thought. Thanks for playing. :)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            We have a reward out for arrest and conviction of the person who allegedly assaulted Danille d’Etremont from Queens university.
            Interestingly enough feminists have been silent about this or helping with this.
            Guess those feminists like University students assaulted.
            And yes we call them out all the time.
            See how peter nolan is regarded and get back to me.
            Thanks for trying.

          • A. T.

            I wanted to know if this particular gentleman did.

            I did note the reward out for her attacker, actually.

            I also RT’d your article about Peter Nolan after I found and gave you credit for it and disavowing him. (And Mr. Forney.)

            Thanks for playing.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You could always go to a source, you know a mod at AVFM, someone like me for an answer instead of asking someone who as far as I know is a commentator on AVFM and not a mod or involved in the running of AVFM.

          • A. T.

            You missed the point. I want people to back their crap up. If he’s calling out feminists and his own, hey. If he’s doing the ‘I magically miss it whenever the reverse happens’ I’ll be less impressed.

            And yes, I know some feminists don’t it and/or you can’t prove who made threats at times. The last is not AVFM’s fault.

          • A. T.

            Oh- your article detailed on Forney was wrong for suggesting violence an option, treating women like children and more. It went on to suggest a relationship between equals. (Yes, I did read it.)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Could have sworn I said nolan
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/peter-andrew-nolanc-a-danger-to-self-and-others/

            Peter-Andrew: Nolan(c): A Danger to Self and Others

            And looking back at my comment I did.
            Thanks for pointing out we called out forney too.

          • A. T.

            Yes. I was trying to give you credit for Forney as well as Mr. Nolan, who is rather frightening. It’s why I came back and expounded on Forney. I *did* read it and I *did* appreciate it.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I noticed that, Discus gave me the one reply and then notice your other reply.
            However you have just proven, with your own comments, the allegations, spread about by those who oppose AVFM and the MHRM, to be disingenuous at best bordering on libel and slander.

            So my question to you is why continue to spread disingenuous information you know is factually incorrect?

          • A. T.

            I don’t believe it to be factually incorrect. I’m happy to link to the article I got it from and have in just about every case.

            Or to a series of articles to justify my thesis.

            The third option is that I’ve read the same things you have and vastly different opinion than you do.

            My problem with AVFM is very, very, very simple: I don’t like how they treat women. I support many of the broader causes.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I noticed your quote above. You only include part of the paragraph leaving the quote out of context.
            Somewhat disingenuous.
            And you have evidence of your thesis being incorrect but you ignore it?
            Instead of changing your thesis you continue with blind ideological devotion which guarantees an incorrect conclusion.

            I highly doubt you’ve read the same things I have.
            I spend about 16 hours / day researching and tracking down feminist factoids.
            Sometimes more.

          • A. T.

            No, actually, the full quote is more horrifying, at least to me. I’m glad if it helped you. I honestly don’t feel better and yes, I’d seen it before. The title is a subtle hint the article is not respectful

            And this is evidence is a new article that respects women? Can you link me? I’d love to see AVFM’s new leaf. :)

            ..You have way more time than I do. o_o

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            We respect humans.
            Why do you insist on creating a division?
            And the women who have self respect, which IMHO is a highly desirable attribute in a person and promotes respect, are respected and published at AVFM.
            Everyone is treated the same at AVFM, like adults.
            Unlike feminism which demands women be treated like adult toddlers incapable of having responsibility for their actions or choices.
            try taking your ideological blinders off and opening your mind.
            You’ll be amazed at how fast feminist theory falls apart.
            BTW back in the 90’s as a union shop steward I was a feminist.
            I’ll never disrespect my family name again by linking it to the inherent misanthropic ism commonly called feminism.
            Now you have some reading to do no?

          • A. T.

            Because your site clearly has divisions in it’s articles and the comments section. Address that and perhaps there won’t be any. And yes, no other women have self-respect, but those published there.

            You’re talking about misanthropy and AVFM publishes what it does? Your speech will work better when I lose the ability to comprehend. Until then, I’ll be insisting on basic respect for human beings. It’s what I don’t connect myself to certain parts of feminism either.

          • Shan

            “I spend about 16 hours / day researching and tracking down feminist factoids.
            Sometimes more.”

            *facepalm*

            Who does that help?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Someone has to keep feminists honest.
            That helps everyone.

      • fiona64

        I think it’s ironic that more than half of his “cites” are from a group on SPLC’s hate watch list, myself …

        • A. T.

          I know to check before I waste any time then, thank you.

        • RiseOfDivergents

          Another misinformation, you know it is not helping you.

          Now the question is A.T. she does seem like she has a brain however she is misinformed a bit, can she pick up this misinformation of yours without questioning the validity of it? Lets see.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry, are you angry that I pointed out reality to my fellow readers?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            As I said, let others decide. I am not angry, you are! I just said let others decide.

          • fiona64

            So much projection, all in one place. I’m watching a bunch of perfectly calm feminists respond to a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth MRAs, myself.

          • A. T.

            A. T. had a client and will be playing catch up. Will be slooow.

    • lady_black

      I think women who experience battering from male partners should kill them while they’re awake. That way there would be no argument that it wasn’t self defense.

      • RiseOfDivergents

        Cool so Men should have the same rights???

        Because domestic violence is not a gendered problem:

        This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical
        studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are
        as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their
        relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample
        size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

        http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

        Teaching people to kill other human being…. hmm.. I am wondering what made you that that way….. gotcha, you are a feminist.. no brainer here..You are making your feminist masters proud. .. We need you because you are the poster child of violence that feminism promotes.

        • lady_black

          I don’t believe standing your ground is a gender specific principle. Do you?

          • RiseOfDivergents

            That is what Elizabet Sheehy said and that is not what I said. If your life is in danger and you can not get out of it, sure you can defend but that is not the scenario she considered.

          • lady_black

            Stand your ground means you don’t have to flee. I would probably choose to flee if I could, in fact, I have. I never said I agreed with that perspective. I only implied it’s a shame she didn’t advise killing them during the attack instead. Now take out of that what you will.

        • lady_black

          Let me put it a different way. You would stand there and allow a woman to beat you to death with a baseball bat, and not defend yourself, Festus? I don’t believe a word of it.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            I already responded to that, see below

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You are a sick woman to speak of such violence against men.

        • lady_black

          Right… self defense is so unhealthy.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Teaching people to kill other human being…. hmm.. I am wondering what made you that that way….. gotcha, you are a feminist.. no brainer here..You are making your feminist masters proud. .. We need you because you are the poster child of violence that feminism promotes.

          • lady_black

            Would you rather I taught people to stand by and allow others to impose violence on them? Remember, I would be teaching that to my sons as well as my daughters. And my sons outnumber my daughters.

          • expect_resistance

            That is complete crap.

          • Dennis M

            There’s something called “proportionate response” you banshee.

          • expect_resistance

            And what would be the proportionate response to someone trying to kill you? I would say if someone is trying to kill me I will use deadly force to fight back.

        • expect_resistance

          No self defense is justified. If someone try’s to fuck with me I will give them hell.

      • wakjob

        This lady_black comment is what advocating violence looks like. See how it’s actually there and you don’t have to imagine it up?

        • A. T.

          I’m sure it’s satire, just like Paul Elam suggesting running down a woman with a car, other article describing beating a woman…

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            According to Elizabeth Shehy, a law professor, it is ok for women to murder their sleeping boyfriends or husbands with impunity from the CCC. Is that the kind of satire you are talking about?

          • A. T.

            No. I don’t think anyone, feminist or MRA should be talking about violence, let alone describing it in detail. I’m happy to protest all of it. I haven’t read Sheehy, though I did see the RadFem awfulness.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You know damn well that article was satire in reply to a jezebel piece. The irrefutable evidence has been provided to you numerous times.
            Why do you insist on lying?

          • A. T.

            http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/

            Article 1, printed *before* Jezebel: http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/post/90143323346/how-to-tell-if-he-hates-your-fucking-guts-april-3

            How exactly does that make it clear that DV is not okay? Or!

            http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/post/90144160201/the-failed-manhood-of-white-knights-may-23-2012

            GWW: http://princessecupcake.tumblr.com/post/90145135101/girl-writes-what-weighs-in-on-dv-august-15-2012

            Now. Self-defense is sometimes necessary. But none of this comes across like ‘DV is bad, we shouldn’t do it to each other’ as much ‘that wench got what she deserved!!’. Nor do I see a lot of mention of the risk of bias towards men, if police get involved, which is something I talk to my male clients about. Mandatory arrest laws have helped, but it’s a reality and they need to know revenge may not work in their favor.

            Lastly, compare how Male DV survivors are treated in this article, specifically re: nagging- http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/13-reasons-its-unlucky-to-be-a-man/

            It seems quite clear there that nagging isn’t an excuse for a woman. Why isn’t it for a man? Why is hitting a woman described in such gleeful detail by Elam?

            Why does GWW embrace the idea that it’s better that a little violence is better, when that’s not how DV works? A little child abuse doesn’t keep a child abuse victim alive or make an abuser not get worse.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Link 1
            Yes feminism really does say its ok for a woman to hit a man. See the Duluth model. I found it hilarious when the cops told me to “suck it up we don’t intend to enforce the law.”
            When I tried to have one of my abusers held accountable.
            Link 2
            I see over the top obvious sarcasm escapes you.
            Link 3
            You should go ask the CDC if you doubt its numbers. And it is pointing out men who attack at the slightest accusation by a woman are wrong.
            I’m guessing you don’t want proof before a male is subjected to violence at the behest of a woman?
            Or is it your fine with males being victims?

            GWW comments on an article and includes anecdotal evidence, ends with domestic violence isn’t pretty (indicative of her not condoning it) and you try and twist it into her saying it is pretty.
            Your doing a wonderful job helping the MHRM so far.
            Thanks for the last link I welcome those who dare to actually read the article.
            Cheers.

          • A. T.

            Link 1) That’s completely horrible and I’m sorry. I’d like to think a complaint would do something, but it probably wouldn’t. How does that make an article that justifies domestic violence with it’s helpful descriptions and telling a victim it’s her fault okay? The ‘satire’ excuse, especially when it sounds just like a batterer talking, is wearing very, very thin.

            Your abuser should have been held accountable.

            Link 2) Over the Sarcasm all sounds like his previous work, which all sounds like domestic violence against women can be justified. *That is a problem.* It’s a problem when women do it. It’s a problem.

            Link 3) I’m not sure I even understand your question. Men who attack at the slightest accusation of a woman? <- What does that mean? Why do I need proof of men being victims? Is there a test you've developed?

            To be overly clear: No one should be violent with anybody. Defending yourself happens, but there's not an excuse beyond that. 'Consensual violence' is not an excuse for domestic violence. People are responsible if they hurt people, man or women. No, the man doesn't need to pass a test to be a survivor.

            GWW said a little DV could keep it from getting serious (do you say that to women abusers?) and some women want to be abused. You don't see a problem with that?

            And yes. This is what I've come to expect from you. Blah, excuses, blah.

            And yes. The last link makes it quite clear how female victims are referred to versus male victims. AVFM does not even pretend at equality here.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Not a single article condones violence this is your grasping at straws interpretation.
            I wish you had of studied literary tools at some point in your education.
            Still perhaps there is hope for you yet;
            http://www.mindmeister.com/35969522/literary-devices-used-in-satire

          • A. T.

            You do realize that insults don’t make the articles go away? Or the wording? If sounding superior if your thing, hey. And yes, I’ve heard the satire excuse ad nauseam. It has ceased to be convincing.

            Traumatized people sometimes behavior in ways that repeat old patterns. Abusers sometimes abuse. People aren’t ‘addicted’ to abuse, they’re not taking responsibility for behavior. Or would you argue (and yes, I hear you re: not promoting it) that they are addicted to child abuse and less is better?

            I’m hoping your response would be no and people would be accountable for abuse. I certainly sympathize with circumstance and how people can fall into patterns, just not the part where abusers get called ‘addicted’. They make a choice, including not to get help. And you can get help without leaving the relationship.

            And yes, plenty of abusers are female.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Your willful choice to ignore literary tools employed by authors only undermines your position(s) and ability to be an objective reader. So naturally I sought to help you with some educational tools. I extended the olive branch and you willfully turned it down.

            Point 2,
            Nobody said the abusers were addicted that was your ideologically driven interpretation.
            However now that you have broached the topic of addiction how do you explain masochism then if people do not become addicted / find pleasure to what society for the most part would say is not pleasure?

            “noun: masochism the tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from one’s own pain or humiliation”

            This is not me saying all women are masochists nor are all men but there is a subset of the population that does exist who derive pleasure from pain.

            There is also a subset of the population who derives pleasure from inflicting pain.

            Sometimes individuals ( abused and abuser) seek out relationships that are abusive and dysfunctional.
            However I am failing to see where any abuse has been condoned or promoted.

            Observations made yes, something promoted nope.

            There was no mention of child abuse and you bringing it up leads me to believe you have gotten confused again due to ideological blinders being used.
            When you can remove them perhaps we can have a productive conversation.

            You should stop using Joy’s tactics they didn’t work out well for her and they aren’t working out well for you either.

          • A. T.

            I don’t think that’s what you were doing, somehow.

            Point two, I refer you to your own words: ‘And sometimes men are addicted to abuse, your point?’ <- You said that.

            Finding something pleasurable in the bedroom is accepted as a normal part of sexuality. BDSM is practiced with consent and respect by many, many couples who are able to enjoy sensations without emotional abuse. Enjoying the physical or even humiliation in a select sexual context is not what we're discussing.

            Yes, traumatized people, from children to adults, sometimes do act out trauma they've experienced or repeat patterns that make them vulnerable. Abusers and predators both continue their behavior unless stopped. There's quite a bit of research on both of these topics.

            I was trying to make a point. You would not excuse these behavior in another context or justify it and rightly so.

            Mhm.

      • A. T.

        ..Let’s not kill anyone if at all possible though. ._. I get sometimes people’s lives are literally in danger, but prevention is best when possible!

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      I’m going to correct every single false statement you made here.

      1) there is ZERO evidence that Erin Pizzey was threatened or that her dog was killed by feminists. She said her dog disappeared and then decided to blame it on feminists.

      2) That’s not what Liz Sheehy is talking about. She’s talking about a legal problem with women who use self defence to prevent their male partner from murdering THEM.

      3) Eugenics? Now that’s laughable since the source you link to has every eugenicist being a MALE. It’s amazing how much you’ll trot out this copy pasta.

      4) People protested the event at U of T. That’s called freedom of expression in Canada. You can’t silence dissent like you MRA’s want to because that’s called totalitarianism. Plus, you white dudes have never had to protest a day in your lives and yet you think by dick wagging that feminists and allies aren’t going to protest you? Think again.

      5) Nope. That Jezebel article does nothing of the sort.

      6) Hahahah. Is that the #killallmen hashtag? Dude, go complain to Game of Thrones for that one.

      7) I covered this protest in latin America. What happened, is what typically happens within patriarchy and is happening in the US right now, is that women aren’t allowed contraception or abortion. These women die by the tens of thousands each year from back alley abortions. They were protesting the CHURCH who is influencing these PATRIARCHAL policies because the church has a stranglehold on latin American countries. Now what did the latin American men do? They went to the church while the women were protesting it to PROTECT THE CHURCH. None of those men gave two shits whether women were dying or not.

      8) Feminists didn’t send ONE death threat or bomb threat to the hotel. In fact Paul Elam is sneakily trying to recoup over $100K because he KNOWS there were no threats and thinks the Doubletree was trying to swindle AVFM out of security money. See my blog Mancheeze on WordPress for full coverage of that.

      9) the hashtag #endfathersday was started by MRA’s and 4chan to bait feminists. Kinda like what MRA’s did when they sent over 300 false rape reports to Occidental college.

      SO, dudebro, GIANT FAIL.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    hmm….I have more ….Feminists are corrupt to the core:

    Feminist groups block or remove men’s protections against rape by female sexual predators.
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape
    http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/a-sad-day-for-male-rape-victims-in-india/

    Feminists telling conservating women that they are not wanted in feminism and they should not be here
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/03/get-a-load-of-the-striking-shift-in-tone-after-feminists-learn-identity-of-news-outlet-interviewing-them/

    National Association of Women and the Law is deliberately marginalizing men (husband and fathers) and robbing them of fair custody of children by providing women a model of domestic violence where it is easier for women to get the custody and children and force men to pay child support
    http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=1038476&Mode=1&Language=E

    Experts concluded that Jennifer McIntosh, a gender ideologue feminists inappropriately used her study to suggest that any regular overnight care by fathers was damaging to infants and toddlers. Their verdict was that:
    ‘‘This study [by McIntosh] provides no reliable basis to support custody policy, recommendations or decisions.’’
    The articles:
    http://sharedparenting.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/40/
    http://sharedparenting.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/39/
    http://equalparenting.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/12/

    Jacquelyn C. Campbell, PhD, RN, and the Anna D. Wolf, feminists Professor in the School of Nursing at Johns Hopkins University. Campbell and her co-authors made the false statement “Femicide, the homicide of women, is the leading cause of death in the United States among young African-American women aged 15 to 45 years.” by misquoting the The [1998 DOJ] study which does not say that intimate-partner homicide is the leading cause of death among African-American women.
    A complain is filed against her.
    http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/22/are-domestic-violence-statistics-bogus

    Prof. Holly Johnson, a feminist professor from university of ottawa mangling with domestic violence number,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDoMaikQr24&safe=active

    In Revolution from Within, Glroria Steinem asserts that 150,000 women and girls in the United States die from anorexia every year — multiplying the actual number by about 1,000. (As Christina Hoff Sommers documented in her 1994 book, Who Stole Feminism?, the claim of a 150,000 death toll was based on a feminist professor’s mangling of a statistic referring to anorexia sufferers.) The same book discusses an alleged crisis in girls’ self-esteem based on a single shoddy study from the American Association of University Women.,
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/12/01/gloria_steinem_represents_the_worst_of_modern_feminism_120818.html#ixzz2xDFGskXX

    RAINN, Feminists number one resource for facts say Rape Culture does not exist.
    http://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

    • goatini

      Not ONE impartial source linked to. What a surprise, not.

      • Dennis M

        Yeah goat, I’m sure you get the information that fuels your fires from “impartial sources.” Do you even notice the site we’re having this discussion on?

        You’re pathetic.

        • expect_resistance

          It’s “goatini” not “goat.” And goatini is correct.

  • Heisenberg

    My opinion … victim feminists are no different than right wing conservatives; left wing liberals, or extreme religious zealots. They’re all living in different blind spots.

    • expect_resistance

      How many women have violently attacked you? How many women have sexual assaulted you? Have you ever been afraid to walk down the street alone at night that you might be raped?

      And what is this “Victim feminists” you talk about? Are you making fun of women who have been abused by men?

      • Heisenberg

        “Are you making fun of women who have been abused by men?”
        Get a grip, my friend.
        I haven’t personally experienced any of the hardships unique to being a man or a woman. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that I shouldn’t care about them. My heart goes out to any person who is genuinely a victim of abuse or injustice. When I say victim feminist, I’m talk about the brand of feminists who operate under a victim narrative that women are broadly and perpetually oppressed by men as a class. Pass.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          And yet here you are, doing just that. By being part of a group that blames women for all your problems you’re doing exactly what feminists knew you’d do when we started gaining more power in the public sphere.

  • Phil McCracken

    4 paragraphs in I’ve heard enough out right lies to begin to wonder of the absolute irony of your websites name. And whether the author and editor of this article went to school for journalism and understand the concept of fact checking. You should be ashamed and embarrassed of yourselves.

    • RiseOfDivergents

      That is why it is a super bad idea to hire gender study majors, they practice and train for four years in sexism, bigotry, misinformation and terrorism by the most bigot and sexist acadmics. Look at those gender study majors in Warrell Farell protest in UoT.

      • A. T.

        We’re like the Black Widow now?! Dude, that’s awesome.

      • Phil McCracken

        This is why we need to be our own media and speak up for ourselves. Biased rags like this think spewing lies and maintaining an echo chamber is “journalism”.

        • A. T.

          No, they should just reprinting AVFM articles. I like sharing them. It’s very helpful to people. :)

          • Phil McCracken

            Thank you, it certainly is. The “Bash A Violent Bitch” article was satire and a response to a Jezebel article making light of female abusers of men. Intelligent people will see this and the worm will continue to turn.

          • A. T.

            He wrote an article before it with similar sentiments. It stops being satire when you repeat it and endorse the sentiment. Cool story, bro.

          • Phil McCracken

            Yup, yawn, bla bla bal, fuck off. Make an argument or else.!!

          • A. T.

            I did it. It’s a bit advanced for you, apparently. I’ll let you use the dictionary for the big words.

    • fiona64

      So, cite the lies and prove them wrong. I issued the same challenge to another of your compadres, and he’s been notably silent on the matter.

    • A. T.

      I take it you’ve never watched Molyneux’s videos?

      • Phil McCracken

        I have.

        • A. T.

          So you were clearly not referring to the parts that referenced him or Mr. Elam, just the beginning and the anti-Pua confusion?

    • Auntie Alias

      The only inaccuracy I see is the hate group designation. It’s really splitting hairs since the SPLC has branded AVFM and others as misogyny sites.

      • fiona64

        Yep … they’re on a watch list. They haven’t *yet* been designated as a hate group.

  • Sarah Stuart

    I am not a fan of AVFM, but this article perpetuates myths. SPLC never designated AVFM as a hate group, it merely said that it found the site “troubling”. It later on clarified its position as some biased outlets were deliberately misinterpreting what it said.

    Furthermore, the FBI has cut the SPLC loose, as it does not rely on original research anymore and therefore cannot be trusted.

    Moreover, this article conflates AVFM with the men’s rights movement, which is about as accurate as drawing parallels between Dworkin and feminism. One may identify as the other, but the hatefulness is not embraced by the majority.

    • fiona64

      SPLC never designated AVFM as a hate group, it merely said that it found the site “troubling”.

      It’s still on their watch list.

    • Auntie Alias

      “the hatefulness is not embraced by the majority”

      I hope you’re not referring to AVFM.

    • Phil McCracken

      I like AVFM and your comment as it’s objective and truthful, unlike this article. Thank you.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      The FBI hasn’t cut SPLC loose. They just took their name off of something. They still use the SPLC so you’re lying there. You’re right though, they didn’t designate them as a hate group but as a hate site.

      AVFM is the MRM. Show me another men’s rights movement that doesn’t significantly overlap with AVFM?

  • TPH

    “Men’s Rights Conference Host Says Women Who Drink and Dance Are ‘Begging’ for Rape”

    Baloney. Why not actually view the conference footage?

    Context matters and cherry picking quotes just shows me your angle, one of complete bias without even taking the time to objectively view the conference or read the articles in question.

    • lady_black

      I did read it. I am SO unimpressed by the context.

      • Shan

        And in WHAT context is it ever okay to say that about ‘begging’ for rape?

        • lady_black

          None. That’s why I’m unimpressed.

          • A. T.

            I should find the cosmo article. Apparently cosmo and sex in the city is detrimental to the modern women. :)

  • fiona64
    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      lmao yah he was funny, his writing is hilarious.
      It looks like he sold his journalistic integrity to feminism though.

      • fiona64

        Looks like someone doesn’t like that their little He-man Woman-Hater’s Club meeting was called out by a guy for being a giant poorly-attended bigot-fest …

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Your ignorance is astounding fiona.
          Do you have daddy issues by chance?

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; I’m not interested in being part of your fantasy. Guys who want to pretend they are pedophiles skeeve me out. And, as I have already told two of your charming little friends down-thread, I am only attracted to men. I must, on these two grounds, decline your charming invitation.

            Do you have “mommy issues” that make you such a woman-hater, Danny?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I was merely trying to discover why you hate men so much fiona.
            In regards to your penchant for little boys please go to the nearest police station and turn yourself in.
            Personally at 45 my cut off is around 35, women under that age just don’t have enough experience in the world to be interesting to me.

            And I do have issues with abusers, my mother did a nice job on her sons.
            Might be a contributing factor as to why one of them offed himself on mother’s day weekend.
            However the question you avoided was the father one, can we say you suffer from unresolved daddy issues then?
            And care to provide any proof I hate women, or you just another one of those cute little feminist libelers?

          • A. T.

            Words are inadequate, but I’m so sorry for your loss.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Thank you for your condolences.
            That loss was nothing compared to hearing from his last girlfriend how Anthony used to flee the house and go to her parents place so she could put ointment on his back after he was beaten with a belt.
            I forgive my mother, she did not know any better. I do lover her, she carried me and brought me into this world.

            But I do hate her sins and can never forget them.

          • A. T.

            I’m not going to tell a survivor of child abuse how to cope. I’m glad for the healing you’ve been able to do and hope things are even a little better now. Happy even, would be awesome.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I think Fiona has not been laid a while.

          • Auntie Alias

            I should compile all these delightful sentiments.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Weren’t you JUST complaining that “feminists always resort to sexually shaming men”? You aren’t even trying not to look like a hypocrite.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yes I was.

          • expect_resistance

            You’re a hypocrite

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are entitled to your opinion.

          • Shan

            Who’s doing the sexual shaming now?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So you agree it is not nice, but I did not see any rebuke against the women who were doing this all day long to men. Yes, hypocrisy and double standards alive and well.

            In Ontario there is even a condominium commercial that compares the size of a condominium to the size of a man’s penis. More specifically, the inadequate size of a man’s penis. Been running for months. Imagine the same commercial using the reproductive anatomies of women as being inadequate.

          • A. T.

            ..You realize feminists complain media and sexualization often?

          • Shan

            “So you agree it is not nice, but I did not see any rebuke against the women who were doing this all day long to men”

            Have you ever read “Catcher in the Rye”?

          • expect_resistance

            Projection speak for yourself some of us are getting it all the time.

  • RiseOfDivergents

    For curious minds,
    Here is a very recent straw poll of members of the /r/mensrights sub-reddit, the largest online community of men’s rights activists (MRAs), about what issues are considered important to the men’s rights movement (MRM).

    Things that are MRM issues:

    – Ending sentencing disparities between men and women
    – Creating a presumption of shared custody
    – Better support for male victims of domestic violence
    – Better mental health support for men, especially to reduce suicide
    – Addressing the cultural demonisation of men and masculinity
    – Having ‘made to penetrate’ counted as rape in official statistics
    – Reforming the Title IX/Dear Colleague Letter system of college tribunals
    – Addressing disparate educational outcomes between boys and girls
    – Re-assessing the alimony system
    – Ending/equalising Selective Service
    – Addressing media representations of men and masculinity
    – Creating legal paternal surrender (also known as ‘paper abortion’)
    – Ending male genital mutiliation (also known as ‘circumcision’)
    – Legalising gay marriage

    Things that aren’t MRM issues (but have been, often bizarrely, alleged to be):

    – Legalising marijuana
    – Having feminism designated as a ‘hate group’
    – Making women pay for dinner-dates
    – Ending racism against white people
    – Ending involuntary celibacy (incel)
    – Reducing the size of government
    – Restoring traditional gender roles
    – Being able to force women to have abortions
    – Educating young men in pick-up artistry (also known as ‘the game’)
    – Ending welfare and other support for single parents
    – Making friendzoning illegal”

    • Dennis M

      I agree with everything accept the gay marriage part. I support gay marriage but I’m kind of sick of corporations and political movements trying to shoe-horn their support of it into their campaigns to seem progressive and hip and modern. Gay marriage is a gender neutral issue.

      • Chris Smith

        Marriage should be restricted to gay couples only, because then both parties would be treated equally in under the law if they decided to divorce, since they are of the same gender.

        • wakjob

          I have wondered how the court will know which one to put the screws to, in such cases.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

          Not so. The courts will just choose the gay person with the most money and make a racket of going after them.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      And yet, the entire conference was dedicated to bashing women and feminists, making and laughing at rape jokes, and giving out chapsticks from Tara Palmatier, the ‘therapist’ who proudly called women narcissists with Golden Uterus Syndrome.

      Make sure you send money to Paul Elam.

  • gary959

    Watch it here and decide:
    http://youtu.be/PgQ2f3z2Xmk

  • Phil McCracken

    Time to screencap this thread to provide evidence of your censorship of dissent. Liars and bigots will be exposed. Welcome to the internet.

    • fiona64

      You’re funny. Violate TOS and your post will be deleted. I’m sorry you missed the memo.

      • Phil McCracken

        You’re not speaking to some naive child without manners and experience in these matters.

        • fiona64

          My “not speaking to some naive child without manners” what?

          Oh, you meant “You’re,” as in “you are.”

          Okay.

          The point remains that this site (in the many years I’ve posted here) has never failed to let polite dissent remain. Trolling, BTW, is not polite dissent.

          • Phil McCracken

            Fuck off.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry … as I told one of your little friends down-thread, I’m only attracted to men. Despite your charming invitation, I must decline.

          • Phil McCracken

            See above. This man won’t have you. MGTOW don’t give a shit.

          • Unicorn Farm

            So go your own g*damned way and get the fuck out of here. No one wants you.

          • fiona64

            After looking the acronym up, I have concluded that this is their way of re-writing history and pretending that *they’re* doing the rejecting … instead of, you know, acknowledging the reality of the situation.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Panties tightly bunched up and in a tight knot.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No substantive reply, just a general obsession with my panties. Sounds like a men’s rights advocate!!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Mere an observation, not an obsession. There is a difference. Why are you so angry and frustrated?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m not mad, I’m amused watching you all flip your shit all over this thread. My original post about you all MGTOWing isn’t even directed at you. And if you’re looking for the person who is mad, then please realize that you’re the one who is simultaneously enraged that women are allowed to abort your precious baybees, despite the fact that women are apparently made to gestate, and also that women are getting pregnant without your explicit permission. You still have yet to provide a single substantive response to any of my posts.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Clearly misguided mens rea.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s some projection

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, it’s an observation based statement.

          • expect_resistance

            Didn’t know that’s how you like you undies. TMI stop with the details

          • fiona64

            I already told you, sweetie. I’m only attracted to men. You don’t qualify.

            Oh, MGTOW? That seems to be the new slang acronym for “I can’t get laid, so I’m going to act like I’m doing the one rejecting instead of vice-versa,” amiright?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Like I said, it always must go to sexually shaming and slandering males, by the ilk of women like you.

          • A. T.

            ..You implied a man wouldn’t want her above. How does this work again?

          • expect_resistance

            You just engaged in man shaming. What the hell is your problem

          • A. T.

            No, no. We like this! It means they leave women alone and go do their own thing. It’s great. :)

          • A. T.

            You’re the one that thought women’s contribution to society was spread legs. Please don’t breed and please stay MGTOW. Thanks!

          • Phil McCracken

            You have no option in the matter.

          • A. T.

            True. I can but hope.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not sure if any man would actually be attracted to someone like you, I mean a real man.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Ah, I thought you said feminists couldn’t have a conversation without shaming a man and there you ‘ooops, did it again’

          • expect_resistance

            Hey what’s with the man shaming? You are a hypocrite.

          • Chris Smith

            “Trolling” is a lame excuse used by those dislike being challenged and those who cant defend their own arguments.

          • expect_resistance

            No, there is a community here and we can spot an MRA troll a mile away. This onslaught of MRA trolling is almost expected. I’ve seen it all before.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I would challenge the trolling bit, but will give you a heads up about getting used to seeing more and more individuals call feminism out for its idiocy and lies.
            You best get used to it.
            Have a wonderful day and thanks for helping our ranks grow.

          • Auntie Alias

            Hail, hail the gang’s all here! (I knew you’d arrive eventually.)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I am a little busy but do try and come by just to say hi to you Auntie.

          • Auntie Alias

            You’re so very thoughtful!

          • Chris Smith

            You mean on onslaught of different points of view. We can smell feminists a mile away.

          • expect_resistance

            The onslaught of MRA lies.

          • fiona64

            ::pats head::

            You keep telling yourself that, sweetie.

          • A. T.

            lol. What is DARVO then?

          • Chris Smith

            I dont know…What is DARVO?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Can you debate a man without resorting to being condescending?

          • expect_resistance

            Why would you ask that when everything you’ve said is a sexist rant against women?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Got it. So when we address issues of concern about women, we must abstain there from or sugar coat it to obscure the truth.

          • expect_resistance

            No you don’t got it.

        • expect_resistance

          You sound childish.

    • Auntie Alias

      It’s the new activism!

      • Chris Smith

        Hey, remember me?

        • Auntie Alias

          Can’t say that I do.

          • Chris Smith

            Yeh you do…

          • Auntie Alias

            It took me awhile to remember that I should avoid you.

    • expect_resistance

      I have screen shots of an MRA at SYG who violently threatened me. So back the fuck off.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

        Lets see that screen grab please we don’t put-up with violent individuals or those who advocate for violence in our ranks. (unlike feminism.)

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You are scary and angry. She said back the F off. We are all now shaking in our boots.

  • Chris Smith

    Wow…It seems that the conference has made all you card carrying feminists even more angry and bitter as of late. Does it burn when an MRA comes out with a point of view other than your own victim-narrative? Or when the movement gets more media coverage and more men discover the manosphere? I bet it does, like you need some ointment or something.

    If you have such as issue with people challenging you with facts or evidence, may I suggest calling it a day and getting yourself a cat or two.

    Good day.

    • fiona64

      f you have such as issue with people challenging you with facts or evidence,.

      Funny, all of the facts and evidence I’ve seen presented today came from the regular posters here, not the MRA trolls. But you rock on, buddy.

      • Chris Smith

        Nope, what your fellow posters have on here has been baking in the sun for too long.

        • expect_resistance

          Oh go cry to your MRA buddies.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Men don’t cry according to feminists. They are not allowed to have feelings. They need to soldier on no matter what. Notice most of these women do not even have the guts to use their real names and their actual photos.

          • redlemon

            As a feminist, I am perfectly accepting of men crying and showing feelings. Number one, men “not be supposed to cry or show feelings” is a feature of how patriarchal our society is. Crying is associated with women and “weaker” character, which insults both women and men. Number two, it harms men because every human should have the right to express their feelings. Number three, it harms relationships because bottling feelings doesn’t do anyone any good.

            But thanks for telling me what I believe.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So then why are men considered as defective or inadequate and weak when they show their feelings or concerns about men and boys. Many of the females here are calling these concerns as whining MRAs.

          • redlemon

            First, I don’t speak for all feminists. We are not a monolith. Second, this whole comment section isn’t about concerns for men and boys. It’s devolved into a bunch men coming in here and explaining to us why we’re “wrong” in this matter and a bunch of condescending remarks on how we’re not thinking about men enough. On a website that is primarily dedicated to women’s issues. You’d have to be deluded to think that any of the MRA’s that came in here are dedicated to any sort of civil discourse. Third, insults have been hurled from your side, what makes you think we won’t insult back?

            You don’t want to be insulted? Find your own safe space. Moderate it however you wish. Say what you want there. Meanwhile, if you come here to stir up trouble, you get what you get.

          • Shan

            “So then why are men considered as defective or inadequate and weak when they show their feelings or concerns about men and boys.”

            Women don’t think that. We are married to men, we are daughters of men, we are sisters of men, and we are mothers of men and boys. Why would we not be concerned about men and boys?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Great to hear. Sadly not all women think like you.

          • Shan

            You honestly think your mother and wife and sisters and daughters and nieces and aunts and grandmothers…hate you?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Actually my mother, my grandmother love me unconditionally. I dreamed of having a sister, who died due to medical complications.

            My wife pretended to love me as her interest was mostly in my millions. I know my ex wife, her sisters, her girlfriends, her daughter, her mother hate me because my ex made sure she did what ever necessary to make it so.

            But that is not as important as the patently copious amount of hate by society towards men and boys. I find that, disturbing.

          • A. T.

            Probably for the same reason you call feminists whiny?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That says nothing.

          • A. T.

            Use your imagination. Why might you call a feminist whiny? What assumptions are in your mind when you do so?

          • Shan

            “Men don’t cry according to feminists.”

            I think you’re mixing your metaphors or something. I don’t believev I’ve ever heard any feminist say “Real men don’t cry.” That’s more of a guy thing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Women will say they don’t mind a man crying, but they will not want to be near such a man. Males are taught to not cry from a very young age, by mothers. Oh and those same mothers do an awful lot of hitting those boys, much more than girls from as early as less than a year old.

          • A. T.

            My dad tears up at movies. I’m still near him and quite often. When you generalize to this degree it, becomes inaccurate.

            Fathers and mothers discourage boys from crying, something I’ve seen at least one feminist campaign address. Try again.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So does my father and so do I, but that does not dismiss the fact that mothers tell their boys not to cry, while they tolerate their girls to cry. I am noting mothers, as most fathers have been driven out of the lives of children by mothers.

          • fiona64

            most fathers have been driven out of the lives of children by mothers.

            Citation needed.

          • redlemon

            Ah yes, I remember my mother telling my brothers to stop acting girly and stop crying. I remember her slapping if they ever dared to put on a play pair of high heels or play with a barbie.

            Oh wait. That was my father. My “men don’t have any rights because of feminists” father. And my mother not stopping it because she believed that men were always right.

          • A. T.

            There are some others that do this and it is unfortunate. It does not mean we can generalize about all, even as we note it as a problem that can and should be addressed.

            Accredited sources for your last statement?

          • Shan

            “Males are taught to not cry from a very young age, by mothers. Oh and
            those same mothers do an awful lot of hitting those boys, much more than
            girls from as early as less than a year old.”

            Wow, your woman-hate goes deep. I mean, seriously.. Because no DADS ever did any of that? Major projection there.

            If it’s any consolation, I would have called the authorities on any family where I thought that was going on.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Don’t take shots at the messenger. Now I understand why you hate Stefan Molyneux who makes the fact that mothers do most of the child hitting, public information.

            So she pulls out the he must hate women card. Why do you need to resort to such childishness? Identify the issue, analyse it and deal with it. Why is it so difficult for women to acknowledge the harm they commit against children?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RtpIZvm_Eo

          • expect_resistance

            Sure I want MRA and anti-choice stalkers who frequent this site to be able to track me down. I’m easy to find and not stupid enough to be found.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What are you afraid of?

          • expect_resistance

            You are clueless.

          • Chris Smith

            Not before I pee in your cereal.

          • expect_resistance

            I don’t eat cereal.

        • fiona64

          I’m sure you find it very comforting to tell yourself that fairytale, sweetie.

      • expect_resistance

        So true.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      I have a mouse. Does that count?

      • expect_resistance

        Is your avatar photo a field mouse? It sort of looks like a flying squirrel on my phone.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          I dunno. It looks like both that’s true. I think it’s just a stylized interpretation of a mouse.

    • A. T.

      lolol. Baby trolls are so cute.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Again, a condescending demeaning sentiment towards a male who dares to speak in the presence of women, about men’s issues.

        • A. T.

          Says the man calling people Princess and more, who is defending a demeaning comment just to heighten the level of irony times ten. I’m not sure why I am supposed to be impressed with your opinion on these topics when you cannot even pretend to take your own advice.

          Don’t defend what you complain about and you might have a point.

    • expect_resistance

      I have two cats and a man. Is there a problem with that? Do you hate cats? Do you hate men?

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You speak as if your cat and man were your exclusive possessions.

        • expect_resistance

          My husband is my partner in life and my cats are awesome little furry creatures. I am truly blessed.

    • Shan

      Fuck. Nobody EVER gave me a card. I’m SO pissed.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Maybe you were red carded?

  • A. T.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/understanding-the-dumb-choices-women-make/

    The “primal forces” that motivate women relate principally to resistance to change, narcissism and fear… for example, fear of being left on the shelf, fear of not finding a provider to provide for her, fear of novelty and fear of the unknown.

    • Shan

      You’re putting me off my dinner, AT….

      • A. T.

        ..Sorry. ._. I won’t do anymore. I was bad. *puts self in the corner*

        • Shan

          LOL! Carry on. Dinner was acquired and consumed by all without mishap.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      Let me finish off that quote mine for you A.T.
      “…David DeAngelo tells us that attraction isn’t a choice,
      and on this, we can only concur. The thing that excites women about
      dominant men does not relate to anything as calculated as guaranteeing
      offspring with lots of resources. That’s nonsense. While women are
      attracted to power and success, they are never attracted to
      plodding providers. And you only have to look at women’s dumb choices to
      realize that if we left it up to them, the next generation would be
      swinging from tree to tree. What excites women about dominant
      men has less to do with the banal priorities of being provided for than
      it does with the simple exhilaration of narcissism, novelty and danger.
      Being provided for is extremely important to women, it is even a
      priority, but it is not primal. It does not account for when women
      throw caution to the wind. It does not explain why women’s menageries of
      mediocrity typically include thugs, slobs and losers.”
      Just to keep you honest about things. No harm in providing the whole paragraph is there?

      • fiona64

        Thanks for proving A.T.’s point so well by including the rest of your “I’m a nice guy, why can’t I get laid” drivel …

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Did I say that fiona?
          Don’t project your sexual dissatisfaction upon me.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Why do feminists need to always end up resorting to sexually shaming men?

          • A. T.

            You ignore the part that degraded women and respond to that. Cute.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Tough to follow this thread, contorted to near incomprehensibility. I advocate for the rights of children and families. I frown on men, women and children being degraded. Currently there is little to nothing that address the degradation of men and boys. All efforts are cast towards girls and women. Where is the balance?

          • A. T.

            That’s not a reason to ignore it when it’s right in front of you.

            However, I’m happy to agree men and boys shouldn’t be degraded, at all.

            Balance is good, no issues with fighting for that and basic respect for all either.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Aren’t you the one rambling all over this thread about women’s panties?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No I am not, just about your mood.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Again, you are the only one talking about strange women’s panties. And strange women’s sex lives. You are the only one upset that women have abortions and get pregnant without your consent. You have been stomping your feet like an infant child all over this thread. My mood is fine- you’re the one who seems to be upset.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your intellectual mannerism is appalling, exuding moot rhetoric.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? It’s like watching a room full of two-year-olds in a snit.

          • Shan

            Not always. But when it happens, it’s probably because guys like Dannyboy keep insisting on defining it that way. “Women like to fuck rich, dominant men. And they like to fuck men who just like to fuck women.”

            Oops, women like to fuck, too. So what? Don’t shame women for that. We’ve been shamed for liking sex all our lives. Men like to fuck, too, but they’re not shamed for it, culturally.

            And so you’re not “her” type? Find one whose type you ARE. It’s not that difficult. Jeez.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I was referring to attacking men with, you are not a man, you cant’t get laid etc. Yeah, I know both men and women like to have sex. I would say women more than men, but women will not admit it.

          • Shan

            “Yeah, I know both men and women like to have sex. I would say women more than men, but women will not admit it.”

            TMI, man.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not if you want flesh it out thoroughly.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Whoops is my name on that article? I did provide the whole paragraph but that is not my work.
            Jumping to conclusions and engaging in prejudices.
            You truly are a feminist aren’t you.

          • A. T.

            You’re defending that article. You don’t exactly have stones to throw here.

            Edit: Unless that copy and paste was a disavowal of the premise?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Care to show where I said I agree with it in part or wholly?

          • A. T.

            Nah. This was my bad. I assumed the copy and paste was defending the article, but it could have been a broader defense of AVFM.

            I’m still confused as to why you thought it made it better. >_o

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Having the whole paragraph out there for all to digest and consider is better than having a couple of quote mined sentences.

            The author is examining women’s primal sexual desires. You know those same primal desires which catapulted convicted criminal Jeremy Meeks (who was arrested on weapons and gang related charges) into internet fame and had women drooling all over his mug shot.
            I remember in the comments under his pic from women stating something along the lines of ‘he can rape me anytime’ ‘he can break into my house and we could have fun’ etc.

            Why would you as a feminist choose to ignore this phenomena, which some would argue its a bad thing, of female sexuality / primal desires?
            Open honest examination of issues is always, best despite feminism not wanting it.

          • A. T.

            ‘Narcissism is a primal drive’. Unless you’re stating that’s AVFM’s view of men (and it might be, you might be more cynical than I know) ….yeah.

            And Jeremy Meeks, the female version was already done, by men. You realize that, yes? This is not limited to a sex, whether or not you feel aspects of it are shaped by sex differences. Here’s the female version, by the way: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hot-mugshot-woman-sues-website-booking-pic-permission-ads-article-1.1706608

            She launched a thousand memes and men made comments. What does that said about male desires? The primal male? Will there be an article about it?

            I don’t think sexuality is bad. I think that paints it in a negative light possible and continues in the usual AVFM vein of ‘what women are like’. If you note the title ‘explaining women’s dumb choices’? Yeah.

            I’m going to guess when it’s discussion on AVFM, there’s a reason for men’s choices and the language is different- though I’m willing to go research that before I claim it. I’ve haven’t read AVFM’s articles on male sexuality.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            AVFM posts article from many different points of view.
            Some are agreeable to the majority of readers, some are not.

            Umm you do realize the woman you use as an example was busted for a drinking and driving charge right?
            Not violent weapons and gang related charges like Meeks.
            So your attempt to draw a parallel fails.
            Try and compare a female who has been arrested on gang and weapon charges to a male arrested on gang and weapon charges.
            That would be apples to apples and oranges to oranges comparison.

            You do realize feminism has been telling us what men are like for over 50 years right?
            Equality A.T., it doesn’t seem like you are enjoying it, but its what feminism claims its all about.
            Are you sure your a feminist A.T.?
            Titles are meant to be provocative, gets people to read.

          • A. T.

            That was a neat sidestep.

            My point was that a similar phenomena had happened involving men and a women’s mugshot and men choosing an unwise focus for their desire given that she was a drunk driving mother of small children, unless you consider this a sign of common sense and good taste? People ignored the reality to focus on attractiveness.

            I don’t want men to be told negative crap so that is not and wasn’t some victory for me. Why would it be? I don’t want anyone to be treated badly, even MRAs. I know that’s a really crazy concept for you. But I’m weird like that. I like the whole ‘men and women treating each other with respect thing’.

            The problem is, again, your negative ones are about women and feminists and women. So I can’t even go ‘it’s just feminists’. But yes, you’re not the only site that does that.

            And we probably won’t agree. I’ll want people to be good to each other and you’ll go ‘no’.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Was no side step.
            You attempted to compare a criminal with no violent history to one who has a violent criminal history.
            Your assuming quite a bit on her background suggest you double check your facts.
            The fact that the charge was dropped to reckless driving (which is what her conviction was) suggests her intoxication level might have been borderline.
            And getting charged with a DUI is not indicative of violence, unlike you know weapons and gang charges.

            If you don’t want men to be told negative crap then you need to take that one up with feminism. However idiots need to be called out for being idiots regardless of sex.
            And ideologies need to be called out for their idiocy too. Regardless of its name or dictionary definition which may or may not correspond to its actions.
            You know nothing of what I consider to be a crazy concept, pure speculation on your part.
            Feminists get respect when they show respect. You’ve shown yourself to be respectful to others and have been shown respect back.
            Will point back to your speculation mentioned earlier to remind you.
            Your assuming my views of women are the same as my views on an ideology called feminism.
            And I’m sorry but men and women deserve honest criticism, bad apples in every bunch as the saying goes.

            You may very well want what you claim, its the ideology of feminism that doesn’t.

          • A. T.

            I meant the first piece. It’s a way to say ‘we don’t agree, we’re just publishing it’. The problem is that logic dictates you don’t publish things you’re radically opposed to. You’re not publishing Jessica Valenti or Amanda Marcotte. You’re publishing things that at least fit in your world view, even if you’re not cosigning it. You expect a portion of people to agree with, perhaps quite a few.

            She’s a single mother with four kids and was in for drunk driving. I may have gotten the number of kids wrong, but the larger point was that people didn’t care about those factors compared to her hot picture. The same the thing that happened with Mr. Meeks. And aside from a few individuals with less than ideal mental health, most people just enjoyed the view. I don’t think the men that sent her proposals represent the majority of men: Do you? Do you think that they are a statement on men? (Again, I don’t think it’s a statement on men.)

            I’m usually having to yell at men and women re: Islamophobia or racism, but when relevant, I defend men too. I’ve had men are awesome conversations. More than once, whether you care to believe that or no.

            Again, if you’re not being abusive, I don’t care and I don’t mean that in the bad way. I mean, i’d rather you like feminism, but I know it’s not perfect.

            Re: Crazy concepts- I meant more broadly. I do get the need to defend yourself. If someone’s being awful to you, it’s normally get to get less nice. I’m not above this, though I try to be decent.

            It’s the parts directed very clearly toward woman at AVFM that I take issue with. But you either support those or not. I’m going to hope for ‘not’ and that it’s feminism you object to on the deeper level. I don’t think you control that material anyway.

            We have different ideas of what honest means, is all.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I never said one way or the other. I could agree with part of, none of, or the whole article.
            If you figure any of those feminists would submit and article to AVFM have at it I say. However I am fairly sure that won;t happen. Hell they won’t even engage in debates. Feminists have been invited many times and all we hear back from them is crickets.
            Recently at Queens University the feminists tried to block non-feminists from attending.
            Is this indicative of being interested in an open honest discussion about the issues society faces?
            You go ahead and ask those feminists you listed if they’d be interested in submitting an article go ahead I dare you but don;t be surprised when they turn around and attack you for asking.
            Yes she is a single mother who made a mistake. A non-violent mistake while Meeks made some violent mistakes.
            See the difference yet?
            Meeks has children too btw so there goes that point you tried to make.
            Meh been doing what you’ve been doing for over 20 years, I see the comment was deleted but remember your talking to a former union shop steward and former feminist.
            Feminism has poisoned its well via its actions and I suspect will be looked upon by future generations as just another ism like racism, sexism, fascism etc. So me liking feminism aint going to happen.

            Again you have my respect, I can be a bit snarky.

            Some women and some men need a written slap on the wrist. We can’t be turning a blind eye to asshats.

            Some articles are meant to be provocative, they get people’s attention and help the non-feminists numbers grow.

          • Shan

            “If you’d like to pen a piece about attractions to ‘sick individuals’ I’d like to see it”

            Maybe that’s an article YOU should write.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I’ve written about sick individuals known as feminists before.
            Big Red comes to mind.

          • Shan

            Yah. No stones.

          • fiona64

            Don’t project your sexual dissatisfaction upon me.

            I’m sorry, sweetie, didn’t I already explain to you that I’m only attracted to men? You don’t qualify.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You’ve explained nothing, you have proclaimed your sexual dysfunction though.

          • fiona64

            You’re a funny little boy, that’s for sure.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            What is your fixation with little boys fiona?
            You might want to see a therapist regarding that..

          • fiona64

            I just keep laughing at your absurdity … and you just keep giving me reasons to do so. Thanks, little Danny!

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So your arguments and positions are based on insults.
            No wonder feminism is on life support.
            Thanks for all your help fiona.

      • A. T.

        You actually made it worse. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? I’m betting ‘no’.

        And that doesn’t ‘narcissism’ as a main drive either.

        But please, tell me how you respect us.

        • Shan

          Ooops, just lost my dinner.

          Not your fault, AT.

          • A. T.

            ._. *offers cool water*

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          He doesn’t realize it. That’s the joy of MRA’s opening their mouths thinking they’re making it better or clearer so your poor ladybrain rationalization hamster can understand it.

          I just love to let them keep talking.

          • A. T.

            *beats head against wall* I realize now, they think a) this stuff really isn’t offensive, b) it’s accurate and c) context makes it better.

            No. No, hell no, and no.

  • sé do bheatha a bhaile

    Listen up: we hate feminism, which is an ideology, not women. Saying there is no difference between the two is like saying their is no difference between men and sports. Yes, men do feel marginalized. They feel marginalized because they are. A male student on campus realizes there is an entire faculty which examines women’s roles and questions them, and then explores the options. He then sees that said department teaches it’s young women that men are the source of their problems. This young man will soon discover that questioning this doctrine is forbidden – violently – as the Warren Farrell protest at the university of Toronto dem

    • Auntie Alias

      AVFM regularly publishes hatred against women.

      There was no violence at the UofT.

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        There was no physical violence, but there was both verbal and psychological violence deployed. Hey, if brushing up against a woman’s thigh is now sexual assault, fuck it, yelling at me is now violence.

        • Auntie Alias

          That’s quite an elastic definition.

    • A. T.

      As Auntie noted, that does not require AVFM to publish the articles it does. Or talk about women the way it does. I’ve linked several articles. You’re welcome to explain how degrading women is a necessary part of the your ‘civil rights movement’, when you just objected to it in a Woman’s Studies course.

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        I’ll be civilized this time because admittedly my previous comments were rage-filled. The articles themselves and their content are secondary to it’s primary purpose, which is to get noticed by any ( non-violent) means necessary. Once people arrive at the site they can then judge for themselves if the website has any merit.

        Men have issues, but the entire culture, including women, are complicit in their denial. Don’t you wonder why those articles degrade women? You think there is no reason? That’s it’s just irrational misogyny? You don’t think men having to pay ex wives child support after a unilateral divorce is grounds for bitterness and anger? There are literally millions of these kinds of men. The culture is so twisted that women are not held to account. How sick is that? But that’s not all. It gets worse. Now all heterosexual sex is rape by default, because rape now no longer must meet any objective criteria; it’s what a woman says, period. If she is satisfied with the experience, it was sex. If she was dissatisfied, it was rape. Wait, there is more: most studies have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that within abusive relationships, women initiate just as much violence as men. Interpersonal violence – kicking, slapping, punching – is reciprocal. But we have a sexist “violence against women” act which enforces primary aggressor laws against men, meaning that whenever the police are called in a domestic violence dispute, the man is automatically arrested.

        I could go on and on but women, mostly feminists, are waging a war on men, and we are fighting back.

        • A. T.

          I’m less impressed when talented writers have and do make themselves known by other means. Even if we argue it was necessary to for attention, it still showed in the comments section and obviously attracted people that shared some of those beliefs. It’s not ‘just’ people that know it’s satire. It’s also a large share of the articles or was in years’ past. Unless that suddenly changed, complaining about feminists and women was a large portion of the articles offered.

          It is true that men have issues that are ignored and that people, including women and feminists have at time been complicit. Two things going here, I’ll address that bit first. Child support should be about the kids. If they are his or her’s, I think the parent should support them. Bias in the custody court’s where it’s happening and not being able to see one’s children or misuse of funds should be addressed. As should any child support payment’s so heavy they cripple a man. The system needs reworking, certainly.

          I consider false allegations to be a crime. If a man or women rapes somebody, they’re accountable. If someone truly (after having consented) just went ‘hey, you made me’, it’s either a crime or severe mental illness and needs to be addressed with equal seriousness. This is not generally what I hear men and women reporting rape to have said though, nor to the vast majority of people that report go near the police.

          Yes. Women’s violence has been and is under recognized and not taken seriously. This needs to change and men need more protection and support. I’m a little more leery of ‘reciprocal’, because I’ve seen too many abusers of *both* genders lie and they will lie.

          And the man automatically being arrested is not true, even with the bias. Look up the mandatory arrest statistics.

          You realize in charge of these programs and the government that fund them are men? And that even with the feminist cabal you think exists, there are men and others involved? It is not nearly as one sided as you think. The defunded schools and lack of resources that hurt boys? Cannot be blamed neatly on feminists. The severely unfunded US mental health system? That is not the fault of feminists. You don’t see the forest for the trees when you see ‘one’ enemy, especially as feminists would like mental health reform.

          Lastly, is people being unfair or wrong a right to degrade them? This was the theory or at least the hurt/anger behind the early 1st wave feminists and the worst of their writing. Do you think that was justified? I’ve worked with many women that have been horribly hurt. Do they get a pass on degrading men? Are we all going to get into a big circle where we hurt and abuse each other more and more?

          I’m not sure what you think that solves or where you think it ends. The 1st wave feminists comments certainly didn’t mend relationships with men, did they?

          • Shan

            “Are we all going to get into a big circle where we hurt and abuse each other more and more?”

            I hearts me some A.T.

          • A. T.

            Aw. ;_; <3

    • Shan

      “They feel marginalized because they are. A male student on campus
      realizes there is an entire faculty which examines women’s roles and
      questions them, and then explores the options.”

      Boo fucking hoo. Women have been marginalized for millennia and weren’t even ADMITTED to institutions of higher education until the past century or so. You think it’s all weird and suddenly anti-male that these institutions are trying to find a way to deal with what’s basically a sudden culture change? FFS. Being “marginalized” is not the same as realizing “Oh, FUCK, I’m not the only one HERE anymore?!”

      • sé do bheatha a bhaile

        Oh shut the fuck up, bitch. Marginalized for millennia my ass. You were protected for millennia you fucking asswipe. And read your fucking history: upper class women accessed higher education BEFORE lower class men. So STFU. If you were in front of me right now I’d slap the piss out of you. Women were never oppressed – ever. Check out Girl Writes What on YouTube. Watch and learn, cupcake.

        • kitler

          Someone’s panties are all in a bunch.

        • A. T.

          ..I was going to feel bad about my MGTOW remark and take it back, but I really think that is safer for all involved. You seem rather unsafe.

        • A. T.

          http://www.snolabor.org/pages/textile.htm Look at these sheltered little girls and boys. Sheltered into working all day with no child labor laws. Neat! Or

          http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/homework/victorians/children/working.htm More sheltering for girls and boys.

          Do you want some modern examples? Further back?

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Snohomish County. It’s a small world. But I don’t know your point. Yes, children didn’t have a childhood back then. Your point?

          • A. T.

            Men and women were both disposable at various points. Those protect women? Those are often white and middle or upper class. It wasn’t the those girls in cotton mills, orphanages or dying in the streets.

            It’s not the girls in child labor now, for that matter.

            Your history and apparently GWW’s, is inaccurate if you think men are the only disposable ones. People have always been disposable, it’s simply a matter of ‘who’.

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Yes I agree with that. Here is how this whole avfm thing works out: there is a lot of blame heaped on feminism there. It’s a racket, it’s deliberate policy of avfm staff to do that because it gins up men’s passions. There is much I personally dislike about feminism, particularly one woman who told me tonight that women were marginalized “for millennia”. What’s truly sick is that many women believe this. But according to anthropology, clearly differentiated sex roles is what led us – Homo sapiens – to surpass Neanderthals. Clearly feminism is self-absorbed. But I don’t heap all the blame on feminism; men also are to blame for passively accepting their new “dudebro” status. It’s learned helplessness, both sad and funny. But mostly sad.

        • Shan

          Wow. There it all is, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, in all its visceral puked-up-whole-and-steaming glory: Women were never oppressed, never threatened with having the piss slapped out of them. Nothing like that. Because upper-class WOMEN supposedly got privileges before lower-class MEN did.

          Remind me again who got the right to vote first in the US after the white man?

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Black men.

          • sé do bheatha a bhaile

            Black men.

  • McLargehuge510

    Anyone notice here how there are barely ANY words dedicated to speaking about the actual conference, its reputable speakers, the points made, or the goals of the movement? Notice how the citations are mostly from we Hunted the Mammoth…sigh…why am I even surprised? Couldn’t muster up the strength to get the original sources, eh? Still trying desperately to equate Elliot Roger with MRA’s and their stances, eh?

    Hey why not get a quote from the National Enquirer as a source on this one too Alex? I am disappoint. Because “Alex DiBranco is a PhD Student in Sociology at Yale, studying social movements and the U.S. Christian Right” we should totally be expecting a non-biased, integrity based, and fact driven article free of throat jammed opinions…oh wait…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKBHd0LIfHk&list=PLHLREeMe4S0OmV_BYAfWNWi0qQzu2FWzK

    That link above is a playlist of the majority of the speakers, panels, and a full 10 hour video of the entire Day 2 of the Conference. You can let liars and deflectors like Alex DiBracno continue to take advantage for you, or you can watch for yourself and make up your own mind about how horrifying these men’s rights activists are

    • Auntie Alias

      “its reputable speakers”???

      • Chris Smith

        Yes

      • A. T.

        Ah ha ha ha ha.

      • McLargehuge510

        This should start you off, and there’s more where that came from. Once again, playlist is above in my previous post. No need to read about it, when you can see it.

        Dr. Warren Farrell, PH. D.

        Erin Pizzey

        Senator Anne Cools

        Dr. Tara Palmatier

        Barbara Kay

        Tom Golden, LCSW

        Karen Straughan

        Terrance Popp

        Stephan Molyneux

        Dr. Miles Groth

        • Auntie Alias

          I’m quite familiar with the speakers (except Gross and Popp) and what some of them said, thankyouverymuch. If that’s you’re all-star lineup, good grief.

          Do you really think linking to that hatefest is going to change hearts and minds? Didn’t the MSM reception tip you off that maybe the message isn’t resonating with people? I would hope there’s a point where you have to stop and wonder why they’re ALL against you. It can’t all be dismissed as the eeeevil gynocracy forever except through wilful blindness.

          • McLargehuge510

            You’ve just proven your own bigotry and willful ignorance by refusing to watch a conference of 250+ attendees (not the mere over 100 purported by the great Alex) yourself and gather your own opinions.

            The only thing proven was your ability to listen only to what you want to hear. You, just like Alex, are obviously scared of potentially agreeing with a differing perspective, so you can blithely label it hate and stay secure in the status quo like good little fascists.

            If you were actually aware of the prominence of these speaker’s, what they stand for, and what they’ve fought to accomplish, I doubt you would have such a sarcastic response.

          • fiona64

            Ooh … you managed to gather 250 pissed-off white dudes. That’s just … massive!

          • McLargehuge510

            All races, both genders, and yes anger at the system and society certainly brought them there to calmly and diplomatically discuss solutions to radical ideology that poisons real life legal systems. Your condescending statements just further resonate how necessary this dialog is.

            And just in case you want to further question their validity. You, Auntie Alias, and Alex should know Terrance Popp is a 20 year and 2 time purple heart decorated veteran who had the pleasure of coming home from active duty to divorce papers, his children taken away and alienated from him, and all of his assets including his home stripped from him as well, as child support payments to make.

            He nearly committed suicide after he had been cast out of his family and home to sleep in his car by the system he supposedly fought to protect. So yeah…that conference of hate mongerers, in their complete lack of sympathy, held a conference to discuss how and why he, and countless other men, ended up in such a situation. But the conference wasn’t exclusively about you, so I guess, it really is hate after all right?

          • A. T.

            God. The divorce rate and the flaws in the system for veteran healthcare and support is horrible.

          • Shan

            True, that. The system fucks men over, too, but men like these don’t blame the system, they blame feminists who are fighting it and the women who are just as fucked over by it as men are. It makes no sense.

            I mean, really. Patriarchy has been in place for HOW many thousands of years? As a concept, feminimsm has been here a relatively short time. Less than a couple of hundred years. And legally, an even shorter amount of time. So the legal remedies are hardly going to be ideal straight out of the gate. That doesn’t mean we have to be at each other’s throats. We’ll never figure it out that way.

          • Auntie Alias

            I watched his video so I knew he was a vet. It was powerful. I mean the video that won an award. I didn’t watch his conference presentation.

          • McLargehuge510

            Well if it was so powerful than why do you insist on ignoring people who may be providing solutions, starting discussions, and reveal potentially more shocking information you wouldn’t have known simply because people tell you it is hateful and not to watch. You don’t have to be afraid. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose by simply taking a look at some presentations.

          • Auntie Alias

            I plan to but I’ll never change my mind about AVFM and similar groups.

          • McLargehuge510

            Well I find that very ironic considering they create the platform to host presentations that you may find interesting and educating…but to each his own I suppose. As long as you give the material a legit chance.

          • A. T.

            We can look up Molyneux up and know he is hateful. You’d do better to stop denying reality and our intelligence and point out the good instead. ‘This has some things you may not agree with, it also has this and this is amazing.’

          • expect_resistance

            I know they would be proud of 250 *eyeroll* . I’ve gathered more people for that for a Take back the night rally with very little resources.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Take back the night from who, the boogie man?

          • A. T.

            Vampires. Damn Santa Clara.

          • expect_resistance

            Look up Take Back The Night protests. I’m to tired to explain it now maybe later.

          • wakjob

            You can’t take back what you never had.

          • expect_resistance

            Seriously piss off.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Thank you moderator for removing my comment.

          • expect_resistance

            Then don’t post stupid sexists comments.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            If there were 250,000 in attendance, you would still downplay it in miserable tone.

          • expect_resistance

            But that’s a fantasy because it was 250. That is nothing to brag about.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’ve seen more pissed off white dudes in one place in a law school class.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes and yes :)

          • Auntie Alias

            It’s sure funny that the media pegged attendance at less than 200. I think you can drop the pretense now since we know why the conference moved from the DoubleTree…at least the AVFM version of it.

            Go ahead and pretend I’m uninformed but I know exactly what those speakers are about. I’m familiar with their bigotry from reading what they’ve said in the past or, in the case of Molyneux, watching a video of him ranting about how women are solely responsible for all the evil in the world. Kindly don’t try to pass that off as out of context or “satire”. It was unbridled hatred.

          • McLargehuge510

            Pop Quiz: What is Satire?

            Hint 1:

            If a feminist writes it’s okay if a man to be arrested by default and assume he is an aggressor in a domestic violence case after he’s been stabbed by their wife, Paul writes in response an article claiming we need “bash a violent bitch month,” and police can look the other way and let men assume who the bitches are.

            Hint 2:

            If a feminist writes is okay that a woman can sexually abuse boys because they “enjoy” it and are “lucky” therefore it isn’t assault, Paul responds with an article saying that most women who are date raped love the experience.

            ANSWER: (merriam-webster)
            Satire is a way of using humor to show that someone or something is foolish, weak, bad, etc. OR humor that shows the weaknesses or bad qualities of a person, government, society, etc

            DING DING DING DING YAY DID you guess right?

            See how that works Aunite? I’m beginning to wonder if you really are that stupid not to understand how satire works.

            It shocks people, functional people then examine it, they see why they’re offended, and BOOM they discover a hypocrisy they have been forced to live with because, like you, they didn’t want to hear it.

            Now BONUS ROUND, if you’re a feminist who doesn’t like that opposing views finally getting some attention…what articles do you choose to bring back from the past?

            But really it doesn’t matter. You have zero compassion for men and don’t give two fucks about their suffering and willfully believe that they’re all out to get you. So, even though you know everything, I won’t bother to ask how men should go about solving the problems they face.

            After all, they aren’t problems to you and your vagina, so they should just shut the fuck up and get back to protecting you and putting you first above all creatures on Earth amirite?

          • Auntie Alias

            You seem nice.

          • McLargehuge510

            Thanks sweetie, you as well seem quite agreeable. Perhaps I took all the words out of your mouth, because I’ve hard them an incalculable amount of times before? Any chance that any of that sunk in?

            Maybe after your done pouting you’ll realize why you are so angry and resistant. From then on maybe you’ll think a bit more about what you read. And regarding the conference, maybe if you don’t want to hear people’s anger, you will have to start listening to their feelings.

          • A. T.

            Not wanting to hear Elam glorify violence against women doesn’t mean we don’t individually care about violence, survivors or people’s feelings.

            It means I think he’s full of crap.

          • McLargehuge510

            For every action there is an equal and positive reaction.

            You should take the same argument to feminist propagandists like Alex here, if you want to stop hearing the people you don’t like say mean things that make you sad.

            Because no feminist has ever advocated violence and defended women who commit such heinous crimes right? You can’t have cake and eat it too.

          • A. T.

            Yes. And when they advocate we go ‘no, and ‘that’s crap, hell no’, instead of write tantrum posts at people when they call out. Because it’s wrong.

            And yes, I have done it when people advocated violence to MRAs.

          • McLargehuge510

            Glad you’re keeping everyone in check, that’s what AVFM is doing as well. What you call a “tantrum” is people expressing their feelings in a way that people will actually fucking notice.

            You as a woman, and an apparent feminist, have the privilege of defining ALL discourse on any gender topic. You can even redefine and cherry pick what feminism conceptually is to suit your personal preferences. Men, and especially anti-feminists, do not get that privilege.

            So naturally they are going to find alternative ways to get their messages out. AVFM does it in part by regurgitating the same hateful speech directed at men and condoned by society, right back at them. If you want to call them whiny, privileged, hateful bastards, then expect feminists to be called spoiled, indifferent, spiteful, bitches.

          • A. T.

            Not everyone. White feminists keep me busy. >_o As do Islamophobes.

            Why couldn’t you pick and choose? I’m asking honestly, not to troll you. Why should you be responsible for the Spearhead, if that’s not what you think? Or some jerk on reddit?

            I don’t *want* to call them hateful bastards. I do want to call them out when they’re abusive to others. I want them to advocate for men and to do stuff.

          • McLargehuge510

            The thing is, you can’t control what everyone thinks or be responsible for all of it. You can only attempt see where people are coming from and try to reach middle ground. The “manosphere” as it is now, as you could probably tell, is still a disorganized group of hurt individuals that have been routinely ignored and further marginalized. AVFM tries to be a home for all, but there is no consistent whole yet. They are all looking for the best way to proceed in their lives. Whether they are MRA or MGTOW the roads that brought them there are largely the same. This is why it only further harms them to compartmentalize them instead of understanding of their pain as a whole.

            For example, this article we are commenting on is the exact kind of hurtful name calling, blaming, and distraction that we know all too well. It is made to distract from the issues, cause in-fighting, and provoke the kind of ugly responses you saw from AVFM’s origins. Those satirical statements you keep seeing routinely quote mined and regurgitated by people, like David Futrelle, who have an interest in maintaining the status quo for personal gain.

            Obviously I can’t convince you, but I can at least try to get you to give it a chance. Watch the presentations from the conference with an open mind. Make your own judgments free from the judgments of others. I hope you will see it is a very calm discussion, by normal people, and it is not based in the hatred of women. Anti-Feminist? Certainly, and I can hope you would also see why they arrive at such a conclusion. There is a reason why this conference happened and AVFM did not just gain popularity overnight.

            This is not some fringe group of lunatics like KKK members or a kool-aid drinking cult like many feminists make it out to be. This is the best place to start in advocating for men and boys if you are truly interested in that. You can disagree with their points, but there is just no need to call us hateful misogynists. I want to say I realize it hurt you just as much when I claimed you are a man hater. Just try to understand and thank you for reading.

          • Shan

            “AVFM does it in part by regurgitating the same hateful speech directed at men and condoned by society, right back at them”

            Why would society hate men?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            It is a question MRAs would like an answer to. Well, much of it has to do with feminist ideology. Such as what people like Jaclyn Friedman and Prof. Adele Mercier propagate. That men are evil and all me are potential rapists and savages women should be afraid of as they could hurt them.

            Fear mongering, hate propaganda against ALL males, is wrong!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That is a pretty arrogant comment towards a man most would agree could walk circles around you.

          • A. T.

            I think intelligence precludes the ability to be hypocritical? Interesting, but inaccurate.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your comment remains arrogant towards Paul Elam.

          • A. T.

            This opinion is relevant because….?

          • Auntie Alias

            See, you bloviated without responding to what I said about Molyneux and hurled invective for no good reason. There really is no point responding to an irrational, hate-filled rant.

          • McLargehuge510

            Because it isn’t worth it. You are ONCE AGAIN calling my “rant” HATE FILLED because you don’t like your perceptions challenged so you just choose the easy way out and try to shut me down.

            I don’t have to tell you how stupid it is to extrapolate that Molyneux literally thinks women are responsible for all the evil in the world. Since you didn’t provide a quote, I can assume you didn’t like to hear Molyneux say that women are responsible for their own actions like all humans. That it doesn’t make sense to blame men when it is women at large who are almost exclusively involved in children’s upbringing from mothers, to nannies, to nurseries, elementary and middle school teachers, and to the men they choose to marry and start a family with.

            We could discuss any quote-mined statement you wish, and it wouldn’t matter. You are a woman, I assume, reaping the benefits of a Marxist hate movement, and as long as you tow the party line you will never have to feel the true scorn, hatred, and bigotry as an opponent of the feminist ideology would, especially as a man. Who knows, one day you may change your mind and say fuck all this feminist nonsense…but who knows, someone may try to reach back in history and attack you for what you said then…what would you think then I wonder?

          • Auntie Alias

            I just transcribed some of it from YouTube. Molyneux said this with an intensely angry tone. There’s no way it was satire.
            “Women who choose the a**holes will f*cking end this race. They will f*cking end this human race if we don’t hold them a-f*cking-ccountable. [caller comment] Women who choose a**holes guarantee child abuse. Women who choose a**holes guarantee criminality, sociopathy, politicians, all the cold-hearted jerks who run the world came out of the vaginas of women who married a**holes. And I don’t know how to make the world a better place without holding women accountable for choosing a**holes! Your dad was an a**hole because your mother chose him. Because it works on so many women. If a**hole wasn’t a great reproductive strategy, it would have been gone long ago. Women keep that black b*stard flame alive. They cup their hands around it; they protect it with their bodies. They keep the evil of the species by continually choosing these guys. If being an a**hole didn’t get women, there would be no a**holes left. If women chose nice guys over a**holes, we would have a glorious and peaceful world in one generation.”

          • McLargehuge510

            First of all, he wasn’t angry, he was loud. Anyone who watches that would not detect anger. There is a difference between emotional tone and projection. Actually his entire speech had a more jovial delivery than usual.

            And you found something wrong with that content anyway? Holding women accountable for the choices they make? If a women is told by feminism that she can’t make mistakes and be called on it, that she will continue to make mistakes? That this effects women at large, who will continue to make bad decisions and perpetuate negative sentiments throughout the generations? Why is that so scary a statement?

            Do me a favor and replace each instance of the word “woman” with “man” and see if it still offends you.

          • Auntie Alias

            Are you talking about the bit from his radio show because that’s what I transcribed. He was practically hissing with anger.

            Um, a child’s morality isn’t genetically determined by his parents and a mother isn’t a child’s only influence. There are a helluva lot of people in this world who suffered physical and emotional abuse from both parents. Mothers don’t hold a monopoly on it. Even kids with two reasonably decent parents can grow up to be sociopaths, politicians(!). criminals, etc.

            He talks as though bad men (offspring of a**holes) have no agency and no responsibility for their bad deeds. He’s giving them a free pass because vaginas! Not because their fathers were a**holes. Not because some of them abandoned their kids. Nope, it’s only the mother’s fault. It’s always women’s fault. Men are never to blame for anything in the misogynist world view.

          • McLargehuge510

            No I figured you meant his presentation at the conference, my mistake.

            Either way, he is saying women at large are the ones caring for young…and young can also be boys…and boys turn into men. So the feminist point of blaming men for every social ill doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when mostly women do and are told they are entitled to be the majority rule over children’s lives, boys’ lives, men’s lives…get it?

            Now maybe you get why I had to stifle laughter when I read “Men are never to blame for anything in this society.” I’m not sure what universe you are inhabiting, but I doubt it is the same one I am stuck in.

            Maybe it is different for you walking down the street seeing PSAs for sexual assault along the way to the store. It probably just makes you all the more paranoid (feminists win). But to me, I see PSA’s telling me that, I need to learn not to rape things as if it were my very nature (feminist win). Both damaging but very different effects you see.

          • A. T.

            Yes. It would offend me if he said man instead of woman. It *should* offend you. That it doesn’t is pretty damn sad and indicative of how you view women.

          • McLargehuge510

            Yeah I believe women should be treated as equals and gain things based on their own individual merit…sue me! I can make bullshit claims about your horrid perspective on men just as easily. You said it yourself, if you WERE a man you WOULD be offended. But you don’t really give a shit now do you? Don’t lie and tell me you would EVER give men the same courtesy.

            These statements may offend but the aren’t coming from hate. Frustration out of wanting an equal society? Sure, but not hate. If he were describing men instead…yeah, it probably would offend me. I’ve been there. I don’t know if I could go as far as to say as I was offended, but I was certainly surprised when I first read such vitriolic statements regarding gender politics from AVFM. You know what? It got me to look at why I was so offended. It got me to see a problem, and that I’d make a change in my own life and tell others as well. That is a part of life. Opinions and ideas are fluid and adjust. Feminism doesn’t like that to that due to its fascist nature, and neither would a Masculinist movement for that matter.

            What more proof of this do you need than yourself? Describing a man expressing an idea about women based on empirical evidence as hateful? Do you really not see how perpetuating a culture in which half of its population have nothing to answer for and nothing is their fault, even when they are involved so heavily in the raising of new minds of that culture, is even remotely damaging? And that the topic can’t EVEN be addressed without being easily dodged by saying it is hateful?

            Be careful of burning yourself, your head is so deep in the dirt you may reach the Earth’s core in a few inches.

          • A. T.

            No. I used your example and said ‘if he’d said men in place of women’, I’d be offended. Quite different. Yes, I would give men the same courtesy, no, you don’t have to believe me. And since that’s where we’re at? Have a lovely evening.

            Suggestion: Find out what ‘empirical’ means.

          • McLargehuge510

            Done:

            Merriam Webster definition in relation of “Empirical” in relation to empirical data:

            Empirical: originating in or based on observation or experience

            yup, still the same, just as i suspected.

          • A. T.

            *lol* You get points for being funny, anyway.

          • Shan

            “when it is women at large who are almost exclusively involved in
            children’s upbringing from mothers, to nannies, to nurseries, elementary
            and middle school teachers,”

            How did that happen?

          • McLargehuge510

            Why do most men choose professions in engineering, computers, hard science, dangerous construction work…idk…they just do. It is what they are best suited for and they do it, someone has to right? Same for women selecting mostly positions in child care and education. Not to mention the rampant demonization of men and efforts to get the “oppressive” men out of arenas like day cares and elementary schools.

            Some presentations at the conference should be able to help you with that. You don’t even need to ask me.

            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHLREeMe4S0OmV_BYAfWNWi0qQzu2FWzK

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            He sounds like Elam.

          • Auntie Alias

            Yep. You’d think with their crowning achievement concluded, they’d be happier campers.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Wait didn’t you toss Joy out after she defended the rape apologist Adele Mercier ?
            Are you comfortable helping rape apologists Auntie?

          • Auntie Alias

            Wut.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            In another comment section it was pointed out to you how Joy defended the rape apologist Adele Mercier. It was also pointed out to you Joy is a radfem and I do believe you tossed Joy under the bus so to speak for those reasons.
            Are we to understand your in with the radfems now Auntie?

          • A. T.

            Re: DV – It isn’t satire when he’s done it before and endorses that mindset. And when Karen Straughan suggests it can be a response to nagging. It STOPS being satire. Do you understand how ‘satire’ works?

            Especially when that’s not how they treat male victims or talk about male survivors? It’s like they don’t use ‘satire’ with men. Hm.

          • McLargehuge510

            HAHA I’m sorry I didn’t realize you had the power to judge what is and isn’t satire outside of the dictionary definition depending on if you find the context agreeable!

            Oh I’m sorry, I also didn’t realize you had proof that Paul Elam regularly beats women on his way to the store. My mistake. I guess you didn’t FULLY grasp the definition of satire so let me provide another example.

            Example:
            When either Paul or Karen read a Jezebel post about how cool it is that wives and girlfreinds smack around their husband because they said something that made me think, criticized me, or are just so damn lazy in general, Paul or Karen may want to write a SATIRICAL piece stating that a woman’s incessant nagging, avoidance of criticism, and wish to be provided for should give men moral permission to just beat the ever loving shit out of them.

            Get it now? See, I even used mean and naughty words to be accurate. I guess I beat women too.

          • A. T.

            ..What on earth on are you talking about? o_O

          • Auntie Alias

            I think he became defensive when I invoked the word satire. Heh.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Satire is the excuse for your endless hatred of women and feminists and it’s not satire at all.

            What you really engage in is violent rhetoric that you actually DO believe. WTF is a gynocracy anyway?

            You see dude, we’re not part of your echo chamber of hatred so when we read it we see it for what it is and yes, it truly does shock us.

            Plus when you write “they aren’t problems to you and your vagina, so they should just shut the fuck up ” we know you’re a misogynist and that’s not satire.

          • McLargehuge510

            You see chick, if you don’t like mean statements about vagina owners, than you should go to the vagina owners who made the original ravenous statements that provoke these kinds of responses. If they want to be recognized as women and equals, feminists can’t keep spreading fear mongering and using their genitalia as the forefront of their espoused public policies. You, yourself haven’t even attempted to defend your rampant misandry expressed in bloodsoaked dreams across your blog.

            I’m glad to see you’re shocked by my comment though, so good to see it gets attention. Now if you could just work on the self reflection bit, you might have some hope at becoming a decent, caring human being. A bridge goes both ways sister. You have to show respect to earn it in return. As the saying around AVFM goes: If you want to stop hearing men’s anger, than you better start listening to their feelings.

            Every action has an equal and positive reaction, so if you don’t actually address the problem with an equally effective solution, you will continue to hear their anger, indifference for your problems, and watch more of the turn away from society and not support it. Enough is enough with putting women’s problems first before everyone else’s. This is not the cave or even Victorian Era anymore and women have every possible advantage on top of the chivalry found in all history.

            I’m sorry I have to be the one to break this to you. You are not an angel and you do not deserve special treatment being born female. Men are not evil and they do not deserve to be demonized for being born men. Men and women are human and in today’s times we deserve true equality. Feminism has utterly failed this.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Poor Auntie still peddling your particular brand of feminist inspired horse-crap.
            Carry on, the days till your ilk are shunned by society are counting down.
            The best part is you are creating that eventual shunning yourself with your willful ignorance and bigotry.
            We love you Auntie, you have driven so many from feminism with your comments.
            Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

          • Auntie Alias

            Such pointless optimism.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            We both know your in denial Auntie.
            Love you just the same.

          • Auntie Alias

            I know you do, Danny.

          • expect_resistance

            Total fiction; dream on.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Still waiting for those screen grabs you claim to have.
            Leads me to believe they are fiction.
            Thanks for your help in destroying your credibility.
            And feminism’s

            Cheers!

          • expect_resistance

            An MRA troll posted on this site that he would hunt me down and kill me because he thought I was Petunia Pigg from the blog Glenn’s Cult. There’s a screen shot of some of the conversation at

            http://glennscult.blogspot.com/2010/11/quentin0352-complaining-again-about.html

            http://glennscult.blogspot.com/2010/11/more-on-stand-your-ground-debate.html

            I used to post as rebellious grrl and the MRA troll was stalking Petunia Pigg. I was being stalked and harassed because they thought I was someone else. Do you get it now?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So someone who doesn’t identify as an MHRA makes some comments and you assume they are one.
            seems legit

          • expect_resistance

            He posted at SYG as an men’s rights activist.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Lets see the proof.
            And so far all you’ve shown is someone didn’t like something on the internet and did some poking around.

          • A. T.

            Molyneux is genuinely hateful. Good Lord.

          • Auntie Alias

            He definitely wins the prize.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            I think he was the highlight of misogyny there but it’s so damn hard to choose. Barbara Kay is a close second for her rape apologia.

          • Auntie Alias

            Oh gawd. She’s gross. She received the most negative media coverage of all the speakers with her horrific remarks.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I had him speak at the http://www.TorontoDV.com Symposium early June, and had the pleasure of introducing him again at the IMIC in Michigan three weeks later. I found nothing about him to support your claim of hatred. I do think you hate him and men like him who care about men, women and children of the world.

          • A. T.

            Yes. That’s why I work with at risk families. It is a secret hatred of them. I couldn’t have an issue with Molyneux because he makes fun statements like this: Your dad is who he is fundamentally because your mother was willing to fuck him and have you. Willing and eager to fuck the monster. Stop fucking monsters and we get a great world. Keep fucking monsters, we get catastrophes, we get war, we get nuclear weapons, we get national debt, we get incarcerations … Women worship at the feet of the devil and wonder why the world is evil. And then you know what they say? We’re victims.

            He’s so cute, isn’t he?

          • Shan

            Wow that’s some baroque logic. Women fuck monsters so they make the world a bad place, but…where did those monsters come from in the first place before we started fucking them?

      • OldandNavy

        ^^ I Love this darling little troll. What do you have for us today, AA? Whaddya’ say?

        • Auntie Alias

          Gee, that’s three of you who love me. :D

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        I volunteer you to speak at the next Men’s Issues Conference. I doubt you would have the spine to do it.

        • Auntie Alias

          Rotten tomatoes don’t go well with my complexion.

        • A. T.

          Can I talk about trauma and the effects on kiddos? Boys in foster homes or trauma in schools? Lots of great topics that need advocacy and publicity. Boys do need a lot of support.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ Paul Elam

            Karen Straughan is a waitress with no degree. One of the best speakers there.

            She was asked because of her ability.

          • A. T.

            She *is* a very good speaker.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            And that lack of education sure displayed its ugly head when she talked about the suffragettes and how they shouldn’t have gotten the right to vote and that first wave feminism to get the vote, own property etc. was giving too much to women.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Intelligence is not measured by the acronyms preceding or following your name.

          • A. T.

            Heh. The rockstars of the field tend to have PhD’s and years of practice and/or research behind them all the same. I do concede your larger point though.

        • expect_resistance

          Hell I would do it. Their minds would be blown away.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          I will! Oo! Oo! I will!
          I’ll definitely speak. I’ll educate you on what a crisis line for suicide is and how to dial the number and how feminists MASSIVELY support them and why donating $100K to Elam is better used by sending the money to crisis lines and starting men’s shelters y’all think don’t exist..

          OH and I’ll channel your inner ‘hamster’ so men will actually go to the doctor and care for themselves while feminists focus on healthcare for families, think Planned Parenthood dude. This involves understanding masculine gender roles and adjusting them, something you MRA’s balk at and reinforce.

          I’ll also teach you about the feminist resistance against war so we can finally end the ‘men go to war for women’ pity party routine

          I’ll educate you about what happened in the first world war when women took over feeding the nations so this talk about ‘women just did nothing while men were off at war’ and ‘men invented everything’ will be an MRA talkingpoint of the past. While I’m at it, I’ll name female inventresses.

          I’ll also give classes on how men can stop rape and male domestic violence and violence in general. Since men are the majority of violent criminals we really should focus on making a less violent society. You’ll love it.

          Most importantly I’ll teach you how to stop blaming your problems on women and feminists so that working for a better society together is possible. Remember Elam talking about ‘building bridges’?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your bridge would circumvent the earth to the point of suffocation.

    • expect_resistance

      It’s an article not a thesis. Alex covered the important parts.

      • McLargehuge510

        Incorrect. Watch the conference and you will see what Alex purposefully avoided,

        • expect_resistance

          No I don’t need to watch the conference. Why can’t you make an argument other than say watch the conference? Do your own work.

          • McLargehuge510

            Like any structured argument I give, you’d fairly listen to? Please…

            Good point, who needs to be confronted with proof and, making your own judgement is too hard.

            Just give me status-quo please! Nuclear weapons? They has ‘em? Wow thanks for telling me president, I totally believe you, lets kill them! Works every time!

            I give the same response right back to you. Do your own work. Watch the conference. Maybe Alex could take that to heart as well.

          • expect_resistance

            You still haven’t made an argument that disputes what the article is addressing.

          • McLargehuge510

            Because it is all hearsay and proof of that is found in…ya know…THE VIDEOS.

          • expect_resistance

            No valid argument yet. Try again.

          • McLargehuge510

            It isn’t going to work man. Trust me, you aren’t capable. You will have to watch the conference and decide for yourself whether you are ready to take a red pill.

            Either way, this exchange will prove mighty interesting to people on the fence.

            What could be so scary that is keeping Expect_Resistance away, other than making his user name a moot point by agreeing with someone…

          • expect_resistance

            Right, your argument isn’t working.

          • McLargehuge510

            OH! I have an idea! Just to avoid the back and forth and save what I imagine will be a LOT of time.

            How about whoever thinks this article about the international men’s conference is a little sketchy, oddly status quo, and wants evidence pointing to negligence, their best course of action would be to click below and choose from any number of presentations and panels that may interest you and make your own judgement.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKBHd0LIfHk&list=PLHLREeMe4S0OmV_BYAfWNWi0qQzu2FWzK

            And look it is youtube and everything!, No viruses, very safe! Nothing to fear but fear itself as they say…well except ads…if you don’t like ads that may be a problem for you.

          • expect_resistance

            Why can’t you make an argument. I’m really getting tired of this. You are wasting my time.

          • McLargehuge510

            Way ahead of ya bro. Time saved: See Above :)

    • lady_black

      Only the guy who runs “We hunted the mammoth” has the patience to tolerate you people. That could be why.

      • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

        and my site mancheeze! I hardly tolerate them though. I expose them a whole lot but admittedly it does wear thin on me.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Problem with your site traffic Joy?
          You seem to be fairly determined to promote it in this comment section.

          • expect_resistance

            Hey I’m glad she is because I’ve booked marked it.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You could very well be Joy / Diana etc. She has so many sock puppet accounts, and is fairly high on herself.

          • Auntie Alias

            Now that I discovered Elam played sock to defend his own arguments on Reddit, I plan to use that every time one of you accuses me of being Joy or David Futrelle. :)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I do hope you can provide links and such for your claims.

          • Auntie Alias
          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Sorry Rohara is not Paul.

          • Auntie Alias

            Who is Rohara?

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Hahahaha. that IS him.

          • Auntie Alias

            :) It sure as heck sounds like him so if Dan is trying to say it’s someone using Paul’s account, I doubt it very much.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Rohara is Robert Ohara the U.S news director at AVFM.
            Next unsubstantiated allegation please.

          • Auntie Alias

            That’s odd because prior to that point in time (7-9 months ago) and more recently, Paul Elam identified himself using that user name. A few days ago, he chewed out a few people on the MensRights subreddit for daring to ask for financial transparency. Shortly after, he posted an article in that vein on AVFM and alluded to those confrontations.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Are you sure of your facts Auntie.
            And if so lets seem your proof.

          • Auntie Alias

            Just saying that three-day window is suspect. I can’t prove it one way or the other.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I think in your zeal to reply you’ve replied to the wrong comment Auntie.

          • Auntie Alias

            Everything is provable except for when Elam knew the threats weren’t credible.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Auntie this comment section is talking about whether or not Paul used a sock puppet account.
            Not doubletree’s failure to provide proof of its claims.
            I knew you were confused.
            Maybe try using fewer sock-puppet accounts.

          • Auntie Alias

            Oops.

          • A. T.

            ! I got accused of being Joy. Not David just yet.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Wait, you’re me now? Let’s play feminist chairs!

          • A. T.

            lol! Apparently. I had to point out I had secretly labeled things with my twitter nickname in an attempt to be sneaaaky. Or not.

          • expect_resistance

            No wrong

      • McLargehuge510

        By “you people” do you mean…people who provide links to proof that you would never dare look at, as it may shatter your faulty world view? hmm….nah probably just being sexist.

  • kitler

    MRA’s, I suggest you read this, and realize that ‘feminist’ does not = hates men and wants to kill them all in a massive holocaust

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/06/i-have-a-son-too.html

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      Well they are leaving a destruction in their wake. How do you account for that?

      • kitler

        Yes. I see the cattle cars of men otw to concentration camps with all of the Christians.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          You are trapped in the annals of history. Concentrate on current issues that affect men, women and children.

      • OldandNavy

        Listen to “The devil” by Paul Harvey. It is one man’s view point, but it’s close to how I see feminism acting in our society.

        • kitler

          Are feminists demonic? Are you on a holy mission to rid the world of evil?

          • OldandNavy

            Lol. Weak pass, there cupcake. Read again and let the hamster run longer before convulsing.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m amazed it took so long for one of you to mention the hamster!!! Gosh, you guys have such unique perspectives.

        • lady_black

          Ok, I’ll play. Take one of Paul’s rants and substitute “Black people” in place of “women” and you pretty much resemble the KKK. Oh wow! This game doesn’t work very well for you does it? Unless you use fictional characters. Just saying.

      • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

        mansplaining MRA’s who are dispossessed and think they’re missing out on a cookie. So they’re throwing a tantrum, aka what we feminists know as a backlash, and making total idiots out of themselves. That about sums it up.

  • Victor Zen

    Nonsense in this article aside, I love how you guys combed through one of Paul’s videos frame by frame just to get an unflattering picture of him. God, at least try to hide the bias.

    • expect_resistance

      It’s not difficult to find an unflattering photo of Paul. Really not a challenge.

      • Mateusz82

        Oh noes!!! Paul Elam is not what you consider attractive! That totally invalidates his points. That’s the best way to be a good feminist, insult a man for his physical appearance. Look shaming is totally awesome when debating.

    • OldandNavy

      Yeah. .. that’s an old one, though. The pictures on the cover of the enquirer usually run from flattering to incriminating, depending on the headline.

    • lady_black

      There’s a guy who runs a site mocking MRAs and he finds “unflattering” pictures of Paul on a very regular basis. It’s not much of a challenge, like say, curing cancer.

    • McLargehuge510

      That’s called a Futrelle! He studied journalism by reading MAD magazine and the National Enquirer

  • Dennis M

    I promised myself I wouldn’t get invested in argument this evening, I shall leave with this:

    Male privilege

    -Having a .00005% chance of becoming a Senator or Fortune
    500 CEO, instead of a woman’s .00001% chance (also notice how the percentage of
    female CEOs and politicians matches the percentage of female breadwinners:
    obviously you can’t be a CEO as a part time job. So there’s zero evidence of
    discrimination)

    -Being less likely to live in poverty because poverty scales
    to the size of your family, and its much easier for women to create and retain
    offspring whenever they wish. This is obviously the reason because childless
    women under 30 make 8% more on average than men.

    Female privilege:

    -The ability to abandon parental obligations through
    abortion or adoption

    -3 to 4 times less likely to be a victim of violent crime

    -8X less likely to be thrown in jail if you DO default on
    your parental obligations.

    -Getting to black mail your partner with the life of his unborn child.

    -Getting to throw your partner in jail if he murders your
    unborn child.

    -Getting to pretend your gender is the exclusive victim of
    rape when in reality men get raped just as much as women (we just call it
    “made to penetrate”)

    -Recieving 96% of alimony payments.

    -Less likely to be cheated on by a spouse

    -Controlling 70% of consumer spending

    -Half the risk of homelessness

    -More assistance if you do become homeless

    -Domestic Violence shelters

    -Being able to take ANY “right” you want at someone else’s
    expense and then defend it with “OMG YOU ARE NOT MY GENDER YOU CAN’T JUDGE YOU
    HAVE TO SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO ANYTHING I SAY”

    -Being the minority of victims in wartime violence,
    sectarian violence, and terrorism

    -Retiring earlier.

    -The ability to call the police on an abusive spouse without
    being arrested 80% of the time due to the Predominant Aggressor Policy.

    -More money if injured in war time

    -Special help with education even though your gender is
    almost twice as likely to attend college and 20% less likely to drop out.

    -40% less time for the same crimes

    -Being 4X less likely to commit suicide and 2X less likely to abuse substances because society actually cares about your problems rather than telling you to “man up” or “check your privilege.”

    -De facto default custody of the children. (which also means
    default custody of the child support, car, house, and alimony)

    -Affirmative Action

    -44 forms of birth control

    -Less likely to be unemployed

    -Being able to decide when your spouse sleeps on the couch
    or goes out with friends (because the aforementioned default custody means you
    have a gun to his head and are allowed to treat him like a slave)

    -Mandatory insurance coverage for all your birth control
    (vasectomies are conveniently left out of Obamacare, while tube tying is
    covered)

    -Having 5X as much Federal money spent on your health while
    the other gender dies five years earlier.

    -Parental leave

    -11X less likely to be incarcerated.

    -Being statistically happier in every single study published
    on the subject.

    -Getting to say all your genders failures are due to
    discrimination, while all men’s failures are because they suck.

    • expect_resistance

      I don’t have time to post either but I need to post this from http://xyfeminist.wordpress.com/the-male-privilege-list/.

      The List of Male Privileges

      (IN CASES WHERE THERE ARE RELATED BLOG ENTRIES, YOU CAN CLICK ON THE TITLE TO VIEW THEM.)

      Privilege To Murder – The vast majority of murders (of both men and women) are committed by men. In cultures throughout the world, men are raised to be able to fight and kill, while women are raised to be delicate and pacifistic. This inequality of power spills over into relations between men and women, where 85% of intimate partner victims are women. Of all the mass-shootings in the US, 40% started with the gunman killing his wife, ex-wife, or girlfriend. Women are typically more likely than men to die in gruesome ways (such as hanging, strangulation, burning, suffocation, and drowning). And in some cultures, such gruesome murders of female relations by men are still legal and condoned (see honor killings).
      While the vast majority of men do not kill, the cultural narrative (perpetuated by everything from “true crime” stories, to horror movies, to video games) is that men have the capacity for gruesome murder when “pushed too far”, while women are portrayed as physically incapable of keeping themselves safe without the aid of men. (In contrast, when men are depicted as murder victims they typically die on their feet or while fighting back.) Thus men are taught to live their lives comfortable in their own strength to defend themselves, while women are taught that they are helpless targets. Women are constantly warned against being alone, traveling alone, or doing anything else without the protection of men. The media has also taught women to fear the potential anger of the men in their lives, lest they risk bringing down their wrath. Meanwhile, society offers little actual protection to women whose lives have been threatened by violent men, stepping in only after a murder is committed. This disparity violence between men and women creates a gendered terrorism that helps to underpin much of male privilege.

      Privilege To Rape – Destroying the life of another human being through a very effective form of torture. Statistically, women are far more likely than men to be raped, while men are far more likely than women to commit rape. Due to the many abhorrent cultural norms surrounding the crime of rape, rapists are rarely ever punished and retaliation against rape survivors is common. Some forms of rape (like prostitution and sex slavery) are either legal or the laws against them are largely unenforced. Since women are needed to perpetuate the species, rape is used far more often than murder as a tool to enforce male privilege.

      Ownership of Women’s Bodies – The fundamental inequality between men and women in our society, reinforced through tradition, laws (or lack thereof), and rape culture, is the notion of the Sex Class: that all women, by their very nature of being women, are sexually available to men at all times. This pernicious ideology manifests itself in several destructive male privileges, and through harmful social trends such as the oversexualization of women and girls, the acceptance of male sexual aggression as “natural”, the default assumption that women have given their consent to sex, prostitution and pornography, discrimination against women in the workforce, political movements to outlaw abortion and contraception, traditional marriage, and the conservative fight against the vaccination of girls for HPV. [h/t to IBTP]

      For the full list see http://xyfeminist.wordpress.com/the-male-privilege-list/

    • fiona64

      Too bad you don’t have any sources to back up the things that you allege … except for nonsense you pulled out of your backside.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You have no evidence that his information is unqualified or fallacious, do you?

        • lady_black

          Yes I do. The end of a pregnancy is not a method of relinquishing parental responsibility. It is JUST the ending of a pregnancy (which he has no responsibility toward).

        • Auntie Alias

          Coming from Dennis, it’s guaranteed.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            He’s the MRA that told feminists he needed to ‘SCARE’ us right?

          • Auntie Alias

            I’m not sure but it could be. I usually can’t tolerate reading his stuff.

    • lady_black

      Once again, Dennis. An abortion is NOT “an abandonment of parental responsibility.” An abortion is a termination of pregnancy that only she is committed to, Men and women have the SAME right to relinquish for adoption, which of course, IS the only way of relinquishing responsibility. You wouldn’t say a woman who has lost her pregnancy was “evading responsibility” would you? I don’t know… maybe you would. You seem just THAT effed-up.

  • B_Rex

    “I was proud to be among those feminist women who worked on the campaign
    to improve the FBI definition of rape.”

    So, can i hold you up as an example of feminists who refuse to accept female on male rape? The FBI, by feminist directive, ignores so called rape by envelopment. Tell me why should it not matter if a man or boy is forced into vaginal sex?

    • lady_black

      Well of course it matters, and not only vaginal sex. As men are most often raped by other men, and not vaginally (I assume).

      • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

        What this bonehead is refusing to understand because he’s thick in the head is that the FBI categorizes all these offenses as SEXUAL ASSAULT. Rape involves penetration and that’s the definition and has been for years. Envelopment is exactly what it means. They’re both counted equally as sexual assault.

        • Peadair

          What is statutory rape, rape then? Can only girls be victims and never perpetrators of statutory rape? You know very well that the definition of rape has always been unconsentual sex, either by force, doping or coercion. This is why there is a category of rape called “statutory rape”, because children can never give consent and the law recognises it as a separate crime.

          “Rape involves penetration and that’s the definition and has been for years. ” But only because you changed the definition. The fact that it has been like that for years makes no difference, women didn’t have the vote for years, does that mean that it should have stayed that way in your book? I don’t think you believe that.

          If the definition of rape was changed to be gendered (and it was). Then you have tried to ignore an entire category of victims. How is that an improvement? Or do you believe that gendered laws create equality?

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Idiot.

          • Shan

            What’s your issue? Non-consensual sexual contact should be illegal all the time.. Who is arguing that it shouldn’t be, FFS?

          • Peadair

            “What is my issue?” Did you even read the thread? Well if you read the thread you will see that Joy seems to think that rape is something that a woman cannot do to a man. Instead she seems to think that men should be happy that at least it is recognised as sexual assault. She seems to think that ignoring male victims of female rapists is ok. She is ignoring them by accepting a redefinition of rape that ignores them.

            “Non-consensual sexual contact should be illegal all the time.. Who is arguing that it shouldn’t be, FFS?” WTF are you talking about? I never claimed anyone said that.

      • B_Rex

        please read my above comment. If that does not help let me try to break this down and put this in simple easy to understand terms for you so you can actually make a response that is somewhat relevant.

        -The FBI definition is written in very specific and deliberate terms.
        -These terms were specifically and deliberately written to EXCLUDE victims of “rape by envelopment” which is when a man is forced into vaginal sex with a woman.
        -The woman who wrote this article Is proud to have played her part in campaigning to define rape to DELIBERATELY EXCLUDE “rape by envelopment” which is when a man is forced into vaginal sex with a woman.

        Therefore i would argue that the author of this article is one example of many of feminists who refuse to accept female on male rape.(female on female too or as Eve Ensler called it “good rape”)

  • Lastango

    Now that the concept that men’s rights are human rights is gaining traction, and now that there is a movement to establish that concept in law, society, and culture, the feminist Juggernaut is trying to stop it by any means necessary. Feminists have shown they will lie, bully, and commit violent, anti-social acts to stop men from advocating for human rights for men.

    I’m especially impressed by the claim that “An inclusive gender justice movement is already a part of the feminist sphere”. Feminists say they want peoples’ voices to be heard, but when that’s a threat to their monopoly on speech they work to shut it down while pretending the subject is already covered by feminism’s “inclusiveness”.

    It’s interesting to watch feminists defame women who speak up on behalf of men’s rights. It helps reveal feminism’s coercive, totalitarian core, and the extent to which feminists work to destroy anyone who gets in their way.

    • Auntie Alias

      I hate to break it to you but it isn’t gaining traction.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        That’s because it rolled right over you.

        • fiona64

          I’m sure you’ve managed to convince yourself of that …

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com TheBibo Sez

            The fact that feminists like Auntie Alias are so terrified of MRAs that they stalk both them and every article about them is proof enough that it has traction for them – or else, why bother?

          • fiona64

            I guess you’ll pardon me for finding your accusations of stalking laughable, since it’s clear that AVFM has told you all to come over here and troll this article.

          • Auntie Alias

            Yup, posted the link right in the sidebar and here’s the troll army performing the only kind of activism they’re interested in.

          • Auntie Alias

            Terrified? Ha.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            I love when MRA’s think feminists are terrified of them and are cowering in the corners of Universities and not going on marches. The fact here is there is good reason to be afraid of these idiots because they do go after individual women one at a time from their hub AVFM.

            Elam posts links to articles like this, which quote him and others as his way of sending the minions over to make even bigger fools of themselves.

          • Auntie Alias

            I counted SIX of them here listed on their masthead!

          • Whothehell Cares

            I hope you have more than ten fingers so you don’t lose count.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Joy,
            You do realize you just contradict your claims of how women are scared on the internet right?
            Thanks for that and all the help you do for the MHRM
            I don’t believe there is an advertising agency out there who could provide the level of positive p.r. you do for the MHRM.

          • A. T.

            ….Did all of you come to this article? How are they ones stalking? We hang out in here in general.

          • kitler

            You guys are so patient. I can only take so much MRA bullshit.

            The sad thing is, the MRM does have some very valid points, but its all drowned out by idiotic hate speech and conspiracy theories. They are the mirror image of the people they hate.

          • A. T.

            Yes. This is what makes me crazy about AVFM. Men need it. They need advocacy. There’s huge and serious issues! Homelessness, drug addiction, veteran’s stuff, suicide and more. But tantrums about feminism *don’t fix it*. They definitely don’t help men in my community.

          • kitler

            You sound like you’d make a great ally. But the MRA asshats here would rather accuse you of being a man hating ho than, you know , try to work together. Because its not about the issues. Its about Fox News style OUTRAGE.

          • Shan

            Many thousands of times THIS!

          • lady_black

            Unless you knuckleheads show up here, I couldn’t be bothered with the lot of you. Much less put the energy into “stalking.” I admit to having lurked on MRA sites many times, but I never trolled there. Nor have I seen many other women trolling there. So who is stalking whom?

          • expect_resistance

            They are stalkers this is why I do not use my real name. I’ve watched them in action of trying to get us to post at SYG or other MRA sites. They are sick fucks.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s a laugh.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You may one day get it.

          • fiona64

            ::pats head::

            Okay, sweetie.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I did not consent to a married woman touching my head. Hands off you creep!

          • expect_resistance

            You don’t sound like you will ever understand reality.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            That’s lolsuit larry for ya. I think he’s got 2 or 3 lolsuits going on right now. His kid smashed another kid in the face with a door and now he’s suing the school and actually stalked out near the school buses after school while the teachers were helping kids get on the rights bus and started an argument with these 2 women and yelling at them he was going to sue them. Yep, all in front of kids while these two women (of course) were trying to keep the kids safe. He’s so effin entitled that’s what he did. I think he has a video of it somewhere.

          • Auntie Alias

            Twenty-five lawsuits, according to him!

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            hell no. OMG. *shakes head*

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your opinion is meaningless to me.

          • expect_resistance

            As is yours.

          • expect_resistance

            As is yours.

        • Unicorn Farm

          So, the MRM is doing SOO well that it rolled right over me, and yet, you’re still oh so terribly oppressed? Which is it?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Unless your name is Diana Boston, I was not talking to you farmer unicorn.

      • Whothehell Cares

        A rocket doesn’t need traction.

        • Auntie Alias

          I hear Pluto is nice this time of year.

        • Shan

          Bottle rocket?

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            MRA’s are phallicentric

      • Shan

        I guess “gaining traction” means the throngs of dozens who showed up at the event in Detroit, right?

        • Auntie Alias

          Ha! Quite a highlight in the history of civil rights.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          I guess being dismissive of MRA accomplishment is a feel good must.

      • Lastango

        Then why, these days, is your political tribe so on the attack against men’s rights? Something has got your Marxist/feminist axis very motivated to stage preemptive strikes against people working to establish respect for human rights for men.

        • Auntie Alias

          We aren’t opposed to the civil rights of men; we’re opposed to the men’s rights movement. Here’s a timeline:

          1. Women fight for equality.
          2. MRM rebels to protect their male privilege.
          3. Feminists fight back. <– We are here.

          When misogyny is the MRM weapon of choice, you're damned right we're going to fight back.

          • Lastango

            Here’s the timeline: feminists have carved out enormous, special privilege in the media, legal system, educational system, and elsewhere in society. This is part of their continuing drive to acquire and wield coercive, totalitarian power. Feminists are working hard to protect and expand this leverage. They recognize the threat posed by the concept that men’s rights are human rights. If men have human rights, then no group should be empowered with special rights that deprive men of their humanity. This is intolerable to the entrenched feminist machine. Claiming the MHRM hates women is only one of the smears used to attack people who call feminists out on their brutality and entitlement.

          • Auntie Alias

            You’re too far entrenched in conspiracy theories.

          • Lastango

            You’re far too deep into perpetrating and perpetuating oppression against men. And why not? The payoff you get is huge.

  • crydiego

    No person should be forced to be a parent against their will. Where do feminist and MRA’s stand on that issue?

    • kitler

      MRAs are anti abortion.

      • fiona64

        Yep … and anti-contraception. They are pro-forcing women to give birth against their will, and anti-child support (at least, from the observations here and elsewhere).

        • wakjob

          The Men’s Human Rights Movement is not anti-choice, anti-contraception, pro-forced-birth, or anti-child-support. It does take issue with the status quo of rights and responsibilities being divided in such a way that the rights are for her and the responsibilities are for him. In the case of an unplanned pregnancy that the parties are not necessarily ready for, she has a decision to make and he has fingers to cross.

          • lady_black

            Yeah… NO. His rights are no different than hers, respecting a live birth. Respecting a pregnancy, when men get pregnant, I’m all for them having the right to abort or give birth as they see fit.

          • wakjob

            His right to choose not to become a parent does not exist. That one is hers and hers alone.

          • Shan

            Again, paying child support is not the same as being a parent.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No it is not. Nor is it right to exclude a father from parenting a child. What if child support was in the form of goods and parental love, instead of cash that is nearly never exclusively used for the child’s benefit.

          • Shan

            I’d go for that, personally, but I don’t think the courts would.

          • lady_black

            The child’s needs are 1) shelter with heat and other appropriate utilities, 2) food, 3) medical care, 4) clothing. If the child has all those things, then the child support IS being used for the child’s benefit. Goods and parental love is what parents do. It’s not the same as child support. If the obligor is exclusively providing substantial necessaries, meaning for example, a house where rent isn’t being charged, not an occasional pair of shoes or a video game, that would certainly be taken into consideration in awarding support.

          • lady_black

            He has an absolute right not to parent. He also has a right not to impregnate someone. Those are separate concepts. We don’t force people to parent.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Re parent; Really?

            “Boy’s parents sue to get his baby from mom, 21 –

            LANCASTER, Ohio — A Pickerington couple and their son are
            fighting for custody of a baby born to a Lancaster woman charged with having unlawful sex with the boy, who was 15 at the time of conception.
            A paternity test shows that the teen is the father of the baby born
            April 7 to Jane C. Crane, who was 19 when she became pregnant. Now, a judge has ordered him to pay $50 a month in child support and set visitation at seven hours a week.”

            http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2008/08/16/janecrane.ART_ART_08-16-08_B1_T0B1RSR.html

            She also has the ability to lie about birth control;

            “Three months ago, I started seeing a nice guy. He has potential.
            But I feared he’d go the way so many had: dating for a while, then
            moving on. This time I was determined to at least try to get something
            of what I want, so I did what I never thought I’d do. I lied when he
            asked if I was taking birth control. My bad luck coupled with the pure
            statistical improbability of it all really led me to believe I had
            little to no chance of getting pregnant.

            Well, I’m looking at a positive pregnancy test. How do I do this?
            How do I tell this man I barely know that I lied to him and, hey, sorry
            but I’m about to torpedo your life?”

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/carolyn-hax-woman-who-lied-about-birth-control-now-faces-pregnancy/2014/01/16/d1de7a4c-730d-11e3-8b3f-b1666705ca3b_story.html

            Sorry the evidence proves society forces men to become parents, not women.

          • wakjob

            You have to be playing dumb to bait me. In the case of unplanned pregnancy resulting from consensual sex, (which i have to mention or else you were gonna play the rape card) neither responsible party is more or less responsible than the other. They both had contraceptive options. They both did not exercise them. Now pregnancy is upon them. She gets to consider whether she is ready–emotionally, mentally, physically, financially, any readiness or unreadiness she feels–whether she is ready to assume that parental burden. He gets no such choice. If he’s not ready, tough shit. She has rights; he has responsibilities. People with their eyes open can see this easily. What’s up with yours?

          • OldandNavy

            Don’t “yeah no” us on that one. A woman isn’t legally bound to keep a baby even after birth. A man is off to court if he gets that idea in his head.

            Rights of women to decide on abortion? Like I said earlier, no one can tell a woman what to do with her own womb or its contents and I agree with that…I advocate for EQUIVALENT rights to surrender parental status before birth.

          • lady_black

            Men cannot abort. And they have ZERO responsibilities to a pregnancy. So not having equal situations, they cannot have equal RIGHTS. Parental status cannot be surrendered before birth, for either men or women. Prior to birth, adoption can be *planned* but it is contingent upon a live birth. Until that happens, there is no adoption and no “relinquishment.”

          • OldandNavy

            Of course men cannot abort. I have zero interest in men having say over a woman’s choices within or aborting a pregnancy. Women can, however, and so have every right to decide whether or not they will have any parental obligation whatsoever or not prior to a birth. Men need equivalent choice. That is my only point on prenatal rights.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Men cannot have a choice equivalent to abortion because they do not have a responsibility that correlates to gestation. This isn’t a complicated concept.

          • Dennis M

            Oh right, so giving men responsibility without choice is fine (responsible for a child whose birth they did not chose), but giving men choice without responsibility is a no-no.

            Fucking amoral opportunists.

          • lady_black

            Plain and simple. The right to support is the child’s right. Not his. not hers. Got it? Fuck his “rights” and fuck her “rights.” This is the CHILD’S right.

          • Dennis M

            No its not. That’s a completely metalogical statement. Sperm donors don’t pay child support, adoptees don’t pay child support, and people don’t pay child support to children that aren’t theirs. If child support was a child’s right, it wouldn’t be decided at the arbitrary wim of the woman.

          • Shan

            “Sperm donors don’t pay child support,”

            Actually, it’s happened.

            http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/23/justice/kansas-sperm-donation/

          • Peadair

            I believe what OldandNavy is saying is, women have the right to an abortion. Men should have the right to say “you can do what ever you want, have an abortion, have the baby. I want a choice about whether I have to pay for your choice.

            Remember there is a difference between sex and procreation. Sex is a consensual and enjoyable activity done by adults(usually). Procreation is the decision by one party to brings a baby to term. No one can and no one should force a woman who is pregnant to carry that child to term or abort it.

            Likewise, a man should not be forced by anyone to pay for a child that they did not want.

            Now some may counter “but the money is necessary to raise the child.” That is true, all married couples should go through their financials when considering children, it allows them to make informed decisions regarding having them. Such arguments seems to be that single women should not have to do the same.

            You argued that “Parental status cannot be surrendered before birth, for
            either men or women.” That is only because there is no law in place
            allowing it. Are you against such a law?

            Equal rights should be for everyone. If you are against legal parental surrender for men, you are not for equal rights.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            I’m against it. That is their biological child and it needs. That childs needs come before his greed. He engaged in the risk. She shoulders the responsibility simply because it’s in HER body you fool.

            You can’t sit there as a man and while you’re having sex completely block out the very real FACT that a pregnancy may result. Biology doesn’t allow you to do that unless you are sterile in some way.

            Stop whining. You took the risk. Take responsibility for contraception.

            I can hear you dumbasses “i’m going to have sex in which I know COULD result in a live birth but because I’m a dense dudebro I’m going to tell myself that if that bitch gets preggers I’m outta here!’

            Until you can gestate you don’t get to call it. She takes the risk with her body. Not you. Whatever the result is of that is the result a man must be prepared to accept.

          • Dennis M

            Holding someone responsible for another person’s decision because they “took a risk” is what you feminists call victim blaming, you stupid ditz.

            Before child support had its teeth the number of fatherless children was less than SIX TIMES what it is today, and today we have 44 forms of birth control for women and abortions. You want to talk about the best interests of the child!?

            The best interests of the child is to stop making women so eager to spawn with men who don’t want to be fathers.

          • Peadair

            “That childs needs come before his greed.” Well it’s good to know that you think that every man who doesn’t want a child is doing it out of greed. Does that mean that you think that every woman who gives up their children for adoption does it out of greed too?

            “He engaged in the risk.” No, they engaged in sex. “You took the risk. Take responsibility for contraception.” I do take responsibility for contraception, so should you, so should all responsible adults.

            Consider the following scenario: Two adults choose to have sex. They use condoms and the pill. They both want to have sex, but neither of them profess to not wanting children. She gets pregnant anyway. She chooses to keep the baby.

            What you are arguing is that one person should shoulder the economic liability for another persons choices.

            “She takes the risk with her body. Not you. Whatever the result is of that is the result a man must be prepared to accept.” A risk she chose. You are arguing: that his risks are his responsibility, and her risks and choices are HIS responsibility.

            “Until you can gestate you don’t get to call it.” You are a bigot, your first paragraph shows it and the rest of your response proves it. You also do not believe in equality, as the rest of your response shows.

          • lady_black

            OMG, the stupid burns. Once a live child is on the scene, the CHILD has certain rights. One of those rights is to expect support from both parents. The rights of the child cannot be abrogated by either the mother OR the father. Why on EARTH do you want a law that allows men to deprive children of their rights??? It’s NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Neither a mother nor a father can relinquish custody of a fetus. Nor can a third party take custody of a fetus. But you cannot wipe away the rights the child will have once born, prior to his being born.

          • Peadair

            “OMG, the stupid burns. Once a live child is on the scene, the CHILD has
            certain rights. One of those rights is to expect support from both
            parents.”
            The stupid burn because it is inside your own head. A child has no right “to expect support from both
            parents.”, unless the mother CHOOSES not to either abandon the baby or give the baby out for adoption. You see how this works yet? The woman has rights, she can abort, abandon and adopt. The child only has rights if the woman wants to keep the child. The man has no rights.

            “Why on EARTH do you want a law that allows men to deprive children of their rights?” I want a law that is equal to a womans right to abandon or adopt. That is what equality is all about. Having equal rights. Women have rights that men do not.

            “Neither a mother nor a father can relinquish custody of a fetus.”
            Yes they can, it is called Embryo donation. A sperm donor and egg donor can give up “custody” of the fetus to the person the

            Embryo is implanted in

            “But you cannot wipe away the rights the child will have once born, prior to his being born.” Of course you can, women can do this now, It just requires a Law change so men have the same rights as women.

          • Dennis M

            But not having equal rights/situations, they still have equal responsibilities.

            Feminist equality = whatever benefits women.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You are confused. Both parties do have equal rights in the same situations- before birth, neither has any legal obligation towards the gestating fetus. After birth, both owe child support to the live infant. Both have equal rights to that child, as well.

          • lady_black

            They are “confused” about a lot of things.

          • Dennis M

            My body, my choice.

            My body, your responsibility.

          • lady_black

            In no circumstances is a man ever responsible financially for a pregnancy, unless he is married to the woman. That’s because it’s part of the marriage contract and applies both mutually and whether she’s pregnant or not. You have vowed to be partners and all assets and liabilities belong to both. Once a child is born, that child has rights he expense of BOTH parents. The only “get out of responsibility free” card is jointly relinquishing the child for adoption.

          • Dennis M

            Bullshit. That is a completely baseless statement. Sperm donors don’t pay child support. Adoptees don’t pay child support. The child is not entitled to support from both parents, this is a lie invented for the convenience of opportunistic women.

          • lady_black

            I mentioned adoption. And as for sperm donors, that depends on whether or not they are anonymous. So no, it’s not “bullshit.” I’m telling you what the law says.

          • Dennis M

            If the child is entitled to support from both parents, why don’t women who put their kids up for adoption pay child support? Why don’t sperm donors?

            Your argument boils down to “it’s the law, so it must be right.”

          • lady_black

            No. It boils down to it’s the law, so it’s the law. Women who put children up for adoption do not pay child support because they are no longer the legal parent. That’s what adoption is. It’s not 24 hour a day daycare service. Anonymous sperm donors aren’t legally parents either. But a sperm donor who is known may indeed end up paying support. It’s happened.

          • Unicorn Farm

            So you’re just upset that you don’t have control over a woman’s body anymore. Doesn’t matter whether the decision is abortion or birth, as long as you get to choose.

          • wakjob

            Nobody said anything about controlling her except you. What if, and what a crazy world this would be, but what if a woman could work into her equation (whether or not she wants to keep the baby) the factor that the force of law will not white knight for her, and if her “sperm donor” (to use the pejorative insult you all love so much) isn’t ready to accept the responsibility then she’d be on her own. Her body, her choice, her responsibility. See how being a grownup works?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh quit whining. You all sit here whining that women aren’t doing myriad things without your permission- having babies, having abortions, raising babies, putting them up for adoption. There’s no consistent theme- not prolife, prochoice, or anti-child support, even. The only common thread is that you’re upset that the YOU’RE not the one making the choice.
            All this wining about her body, her choice, her responsibility ignores that you have to pay child support because it is the right of the child to receive financial support from both parents.

          • wakjob

            She may opt out. She has that option all to herself. I hear facts being stated, and somebody named Unicorn Farm abandoning reason. Whining, I do not hear.

          • Unicorn Farm

            How can she opt out?
            How have I abandoned reason?

          • wakjob

            She can abort the pregnancy. She can carry to term and surrender the child for adoption. She can drop it off, in many states, at a hospital or police station no questions asked. Don’t wanna be on the hook for child support for the next couple of decades? No problem, Jill. Whoa, Jack, where do you think YOU’RE going? You’re gonna have to get a second job, you’re falling behind. You know, if you get ten grand underwater, we have a prison cell for you. What’s that you say? You never agreed to this. Oh how adorable. You think you have the right to consent to parental responsibility like a woman has. That is precious, son. You made me smile.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Blah blah blah heard it all before.
            Men do not have the equivalent right to abortion cause they do not have the equivalent burden of gestation.
            I reiterate- paying child support is not the equivalent of parenthood. Look at it like a tax. If you are that concerned about having to pay child support, go ahead and get a vasectomy.

          • wakjob

            At least people with functional brains may read this.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Hahaha, I’m so wrong, and its SO clear, why can’t you point out how?

        • Whothehell Cares

          No, no and just no.

          • expect_resistance

            Bullshit and a big pile of cow cookies.

          • fiona64

            Really? So far, I have seen that a) women should be forced to terminate a pregnancy if a man wants them to, b) women should be forced to gestate a pregnancy if a man wants them to, and c) under no circumstances should a man be forced to pay child support. That’s pretty much as anti-choice as it gets, dude.

      • OldandNavy

        No, not really.

      • lady_black

        No, they want to be able to coerce abortion and/or childbirth, depending on the mood they’re in. It will NEVER HAPPEN.

        • kitler

          Thanks for clarifying.

          Women as chattel.

          • Dennis M

            Forcing someone to labor for 18 years because of your unilateral decision isn’t chattel?

          • Unicorn Farm

            No. Child support is financial payment, not forced labor.

            Do you believe that paying taxes is turning you into chattel?

          • Dennis M

            Taxes are paid on what you ALREADY EARNED. Child support forces you to earn. If you get laid off, you get thrown in jail. That is forced labor. If I demand you pay me 1 bail of cotton for every 10 you produce, that’s a tax. If I force you to make me 20 bails of cotton or be thrown in jail, THAT IS SLAVERY.

          • Unicorn Farm

            …………………….
            it applies to women too. sorry dude, I don’t feel bad for you that you have an obligation to support your children. I fee bad for your hypothetical children.

          • Dennis M

            No one has a fucking obligation to support their children. If parents can sever ties with their child based on whether both PARENTS agree, then its not an obligation to the child at all. Otherwise it would be binding no matter what the parents thought.

            Give it a rest. We both know with more conviction than 2 + 2 is 4 that feminism doesn’t fight for the best interests of the children. We both know with certainty that children are worse off because of feminism, now that 6 in 10 children are fatherless. And we know with more certainty than 2 + 2 is 4 that it is not irresponsible fathers behind this epidemic (it makes no sense fathers would magically turn irresponsible when we started penalizing them for walking out), but rather irresponsible mothers (who feminism and LBJ showered with safety nets.)

          • Dennis M

            And A-FUCKING-GAIN, I will bring up sperm donors and even add surrogate mothers. They do not pay child support if they don’t want to, so clearly child support IS NOT FOR THE CHILD! If it was, the will of one parent and the method of conception WOULD MEAN NOTHING!

          • Unicorn Farm

            ….. Sperm donors and surrogates pay no child support because they are not the child’s legal parents. The child in these scenarios is receiving support from its legal parents. Get a grip on yourself kid.

          • Shan

            “Child support forces you to earn”

            Because otherwise your were planning to live under a bridge?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope, it isn’t.

          • Dennis M

            Wow, so forced labor isn’t slavery. Jesus fucking Christ.

          • lady_black

            No. Because of your OWN decision. A woman cannot gestate without using sperm.

          • Dennis M

            I also can’t force her to gestate with sperm, so no, ejaculation is not the decision to make a child.

            Sex is consent to nothing but sex or the pro-choice argument falls apart. You KNOW you’re wrong.

          • lady_black

            I also asked you to detail your responsibilities in a woman’s pregnancy. You have none. All the risks and responsibilities in pregnancy fall upon her. Therefore you can neither forbid it nor compel it. Why is this so hard? What are you, an eight year old?

    • OldandNavy

      Many of us feel that, though no one should have a say in what a woman does with her own womb, men should have the same parental surrender rights that women realize through abortion and infant surrender and (sometimes without a father’s knowledge) adoption.

      • A. T.

        People have mentioned a contract people signed before getting involved. I don’t expect the government to go for this and give up money, but something like this that had the consent of everyone would be fine.

        • OldandNavy

          No. Reproductive rights. The right to surrender or avoid parental obligation just like women can.

          Take nothing from women. ….. just afford the very same rights to everyone.

          • A. T.

            I just don’t want forced abortion, which I’ve heard mentioned. If you can avoid that and everyone knows what’s on the table going in, I don’t care.

          • lady_black

            A woman, like a man, only has parental responsibility upon a live birth. Neither owe anything to a pregnancy, which can be terminated or may self-terminate. Unless men can be pregnant, they can never abort. I keep telling you this, but you’re too dumb to realize the facts.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            A woman has no parental responsibility until childbirth?

            You’re of course correct, The mother should be allowed to smoke, drink, and shoot heroin right up until she pops out a baby. What could go wrong with that?

          • lady_black

            Well actually she has that natural right. Although I don’t consider it a wise course of action if one intends to give birth. When you come right down to it, she doesn’t lose any rights upon pregnancy, now does she? She certainly can still smoke and drink. Heroin is illegal, but it’s illegal for EVERYONE.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “It’s my right to endanger the lives of my children that are still in the womb.” -Lady_black

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            wow did you ever strawman her.

          • fiona64

            That’s his MO. Ignore him. He’s been banned from here four times so far.

          • lady_black

            I never said that. She may choose to terminate the pregnancy. She loses NO RIGHTS upon conception and you cannot argue that away. By the way, our mothers smoked and drank throughout pregnancy. And even when I was pregnant with mine, it wasn’t the huge bugaboo that they make of it now. We all turned out just fine, and so did our children. Moderation in all things! If a woman were to ask me, I would tell her, if you want a glass of wine or a beer, have a glass of wine or a beer. Do NOT binge-drink. That isn’t good for anyone. And if you’re hooked on tobacco, pregnancy isn’t a good time to quit. Cut back as much as you can. And NEVER smoke in the house after the baby comes. My daughter smoked through her pregnancy and is the mother of a bright, happy 10 month old pink butterball. Both parents still smoke… outside the house.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            No you idiot, she technically doesn’t become a parent until there’s a LIVE birth. What a dimwit you are. Lady black is talking about her gestation, which means she still has INDIVIDUAL rights. Gosh darnit you’d think we were talking about rocket science you’re so fucking clueless.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            Her individual rights end when she is forcing a substance (alcohol, heroin, carcinogens from smoking) into the body of the other individual she is carrying — through actions of her own mind you.

            Unless you think it’s OK for gestating mothers to intentionally endanger their fetuses. Do you really feel that way Joy?

          • lady_black

            She has a right to do ANYTHING while pregnant that she had the right to do while NOT pregnant. Her individual rights do not end at pregnancy. For example, she has the right to chemo or radiation is she has cancer, regardless of the effects on the fetus. Along with that often comes the decision to abort. She can smoke, drink, ride horseback, climb mountains or go snorkeling. Those are all legal activities that do not end based on pregnancy. This is not nuclear physics.

          • BelligerentBruncher

            “She has a right to do ANYTHING while pregnant”

            How responsible of you.

          • lady_black

            Yep.

          • fiona64

            BB is our resident teen MRA troll. Ignore it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Honestly, just don’t even acknowledge him. He posts the same pointless mess over and over.

          • slingshot2hell

            Well, heroin is illegal for all persons, pregnant or not. And smoking is legal for anyone over 18+, even pregnant people.

          • Unicorn Farm

            A man’s role in the reproductive process ends when he ejaculates. Thus, his rights end there. Surrendering your right to a child is not a part of the reproductive process and therefore it is not a reproductive right.

        • lady_black

          I don’t think so…

          • A. T.

            You don’t think a mutually consenting couple could go into a relationship with that agreement? It’s all theoretical, I’m just curious as to your thoughts.

          • lady_black

            Well they certainly “could” enter into such an “agreement” (and have done so.) The rub is that no court will entertain such an agreement. It is entirely dependent upon whether or not the custodial parent chooses to honor it. There have been such cases. What the law says is that the right to child support belongs to the child. Two people cannot sign away the rights of a third party.

      • lady_black

        Abortion is not “a surrender of parental rights.” It is a termination of pregnancy. Men and women have the same surrender rights, which can only be in adoption.

        • OldandNavy

          Nope. On the first point, same outcome. .. surrender (termination, ending, severing) of parental obligation. On the second, she keeps the child and he wants out…. off to court for him. He pays. He doesn’t get to surrender parental rights if SHE says he doesn’t.

          It’s exceedingly difficult (though not impossible, true) for a man to get custody of his live born child the mother wants nothing to do with and then sue her for support.

          The mother had nearly every card in her hand and is equipped to call the shots on that one.

          • lady_black

            No it does NOT have the same outcome, either in the law or in reality. In one case, there is no right or responsibility for either party because there was only a potential, not an actual. In the other, both have equal rights and responsibilities. Just because a woman wants to surrender a child for adoption, doesn’t mean the father has to meekly go along with it. He can sue for custody, and he will GET custody. She will have to pay HIM support. That’s how it works.

          • fiona64

            If there is an abortion, there is no child.

            However, let me make sure I understand this, because they seem to be the arguments you are making.

            — A woman should not have the right to terminate a pregnancy if a man doesn’t want her to.
            — A woman should be forced to terminate a pregnancy if a man wants her to.
            — If a woman does not terminate a pregnancy when a man wants her to, the man should not have to support his own offspring.
            — If a woman does not terminate a pregnancy at the man’s behest, it’s okay for him to change his mind and not have to support his own offspring.

            Does that pretty much cover it?

          • kitler

            LOL

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            it covers it if you’ve been taking lsd and are experiencing hallucinations.
            In regards to reality, you missed it by a country mile.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com TheBibo Sez

      Feminists are more than happy to FORCE men into parenthood while making sure that women never are. They think that is some sort of equality. They are dumb like that.

      • wakjob

        He has it coming after all those millennia of oppression.

      • Shan

        Paying child support is not the equivalent of being a parent. Nobody can be FORCED to parent a child. Notably, putative parents of children who are observed NOT parenting them lose custody.

        • OldandNavy

          Right. I know enough men (and their lawyers) that would take exception to that idea that I don’t have enough digits to count then on.

          • Shan

            I’m sorry for your loss.

    • Auntie Alias

      Use condoms.

      • OldandNavy

        Quit lying about the pill.

        But it isn’t about that. It is about equal rights in surrendering or aborting parental responsibilities.

        Women haz them. Men don’t.

        • A. T.

          We need male birth control, for one thing. I don’t expect the US government to give up the right to seek child support.

          • OldandNavy

            A man should have the right to relinquish all parental rights and responsibilities exactly on par with a woman’s. … or no one should have it.

          • A. T.

            In adoption, you mean? Re: child support- they seek it from women too, if the father has custody.

          • OldandNavy

            I mean at birth through infancy. Rights matching women’s.

            Custody matters. .. yup, you support a child you kept. .. man or woman. Though joint custody must (rightly) be the rule and primary or sole custody the exception – and with will or cause. Both parents should find themselves paying support.

          • A. T.

            Unless a parent of either gender is abusive to the point where it’s unsafe, i want parents to have equal access to their children.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            They do have equal access. The problem with MRA dude here is that we’re talking about men who are abusive to their wives and want to use the law to make it possible to continue to abuse her. In Canada they just struck down a ‘shared parenting bill’ that would’ve made it illegal for a woman to move after a divorce unless she gets permission from her ex husband.

            MRA’s and Fathers Rights group use clever linguistic tricks to make it sound all nice. Shared parenting is already a reality in the US and Canada> What happens though is that the father usually can’t care for the kids b/c he works and b/c the mother usually doesn’t work she gets a higher percentage of custody or sole.

            MRA’s are blowing hot air.

          • A. T.

            From what I had read about the US, we’re moving to shared parenting, but it was not a law and some courts still varied as to who got sole custody with some bias toward mothers?

            Abusers’ are a very difficult issue. How to be fair to good parents and protect victims of abuse… there’s no one solution and someone will lose either way, it seems.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            The reason, as I stated, why a court will give custody to a mother is because the father can’t care for the kids. It might look on paper like there’s discrimination against fathers but there isn’t.

            In fact, when a father fights for sole custody he will usually get it.

            This entire ‘men are discriminated against in custody cases’ is bullshit. Of course you can find a few cases where a traditional judge automatically awards to the mother based on gender stereotyping but it’s rarer and rarer in the US and Canada.

          • OldandNavy

            Someone usually loses and it is usually men, in regard to family courts.

            There is no avalanche of good women who can’t see their children because a judge just ate a man’s sob sorry up. I’ve watched that crap go down in the inverse… lots.

            It’s one reason I advocate the way I do.

          • lady_black

            Usually one party has to take primary physical custody. That’s a requirement for getting the child into a public school (for example). The child resides primarily at one home or the other, and that determines what school the child goes to. This is something two responsible adults ought to be able to work out on their own, regardless of what the legal order says. Nobody is going to step in and say no you can’t have the child on this holiday, this night of the week, this particular weekend rather than the other. That’s for those who can’t work things out between themselves, which requires well, acting like an adult and compromising.

          • OldandNavy

            Good. But that isn’t the reality of the situation. Hence, my own activism.

          • lady_black

            I don’t know about the country where you live, but here in the USA, joint custody is the rule. And both parents ALWAYS pay child support. Do you not think it costs money to house, feed, clothe and provide medical care for a child?

          • OldandNavy

            Joint custody (equal, 50/50) has not been the rule or even opening assumption in any separation I have witnessed in 18 years of counseling my sailors through them.

            I am in the states and I meant both paying support, reach in their turn when their other has the children.

          • lady_black

            Joint custody is legal, not physical. In reality, you cannot force two people to remain in close physical proximity to make joint physical custody work. That would be ideal, but not realistic. Either parent could have to relocate for a job, or pressing family responsibility. And the schools DO want a single address so they can be reimbursed for the cost of educating a student… you know… issues like that. They don’t LIKE playing musical school districts, and it doesn’t work well for the child, either. Someone who is a parent knows things like this, and isn’t all concerned about “what’s best for MEEEEEEEE” like you are.

          • lady_black

            Women have only ONE way to relinquish parental rights and responsibilities, dear. Adoption or relinquishing for adoption. Just like men! Really, silly… she owes nothing to a zygote, embryo or fetus. And neither do you. You, like the woman, have responsibilities as regard a live birth.

          • OldandNavy

            Nope. A man need not be notified he has fathered children (and when he is, it is at the discretion of the mother) and a woman may abort her child, adopt her child or spender it at a hospital or (in some places) a fire or police station.

            I say fine. Let those avenues remain in place. I’m not then and have no Say in the matter. I’m saying recognize equivalent rights in men. Not over the womb but over his ability to surrender his status as a parent… child in hand or not.

          • lady_black

            You will NEVER have rights in a pregnancy, Nor should you. Adoption is a different story.

          • OldandNavy

            Mam, what a point misser. I’m not even talking about anything to do with any male rights about pregnancy or abortion, ad you seem to thick to pick out of plain English. EQUIVALENT. … off equal effectiveness.

            I mean severing parental obligation with legal documentation to be as effective as a woman can inside a clinic.

            Feel free to miss the idea again.

            I’m old enough to know you stop talking to a post when it can’t answer you twice.

          • lady_black

            A woman inside a clinic (I assume you mean having an abortion) is not severing parental obligation. SHE HAS NO PARENTAL OBLIGATION TO SEVER at this point. One cannot have parental obligation other than to a born child, because there is no one to be obligated to. Even if she *plans* on adoption, the adoption is contingent upon a live birth. One cannot sign away custody or take custody of a fetus! How HARD is this???

          • Dennis M

            THEN WHY THE FUCK DO WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES!?

            Giving someone rights without responsibilities in ANYTHING, pregnancy or otherwise, is called slavery. Full stop. If being responsible for something you had no say in is not slavery, there is literally nothing on this Earth that IS slavery.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You had a say- you had sex with a woman. Sorry, but that is your only role in the reproductive process as a man. Thus, your reproductive rights end there.

            Further, child support is not slavery. It is financial payment, not forced labor.

          • Dennis M

            Sex is not consent to anything but sex or the pro-choice argument falls apart you disingenuous, willfully blind shit bags.

            Being forced to work for someone else’s enrichment is not fucking slavery!? Then there is nothing on this Earth that is slavery and you know it. And YES, I am forced to work. If I get laid off and can’t produce the requisite sum required, I am thrown in jail.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “willfully blind shit bags.”

            Just putting a wonderful face on the Men’s Human Rights Movement, arent you? Consent is irrelevant to the right of the child to be cared for. You are not being forced to work for someone’s enrichment. You are obligated to support your child. There is a difference.

            If you tell me to produce for bails of cotton, I can say no, because I have no obligation to you to produce cotton. You DO have an obligation to support your child, you’re just not happy about that.

          • lady_black

            Denny, please provide, in detail, any responsibilities you have in a pregnancy. Do you carry the pregnancy part of the time? Pay support for a fetus? Undergo any personal physical risks?

          • Dennis M

            I am responsible for the results of the pregnancy. Why? I did not gestate the child.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, as far as adoption is concerned, most adoption agencies now require the consent of both parents.

          • fiona64

            Again, I ask the question that you cannot seem to answer:

            — If a woman you (general you, not specific) have impregnated wants an abortion, and you don’t want her to, you should be allowed to force her to gestate.
            — If a woman wants to gestate a pregnancy resulting from intercourse with you, and you don’t want her to, you should be allowed to force her to obtain an abortion.
            — If said woman remains pregnant against your will, you should not have to pay child support for the resulting infant.
            — If said woman remains pregnant at your behest, you should be allowed to change your mind and not pay child support.

            Does that pretty much cover it? Because that’s the gist I’m getting from your remarks.

          • Shan

            “If said woman remains pregnant against your will, you should not have to pay child support for the resulting infant”

            I believe their term for it is “financial abortion”.

          • fiona64

            Yep, I’ve seen that. I’m not even responding to the angry dudebros anymore.

          • George Booth

            fiona64! Sweetheart!

            You got to use the computer in the day room again? Do you respond to “dudebros” who aren’t angry?

          • OldandNavy

            Wrong gist.

            I’m advocating for zero right for a man over whether or not a woman chooses to continue or terminate her gestation.

            I’m saying that a man deserves the ability to have a PAPER abortion, just as a woman has the ability to have an actual abortion.

            If a woman can (rightly so) decide if she will or will not be a parent post conception free from any intervening authority from the father…. then why is it so alien that a man have equivalent ability to do the exact equivalent with no intervening authority from the mother.

            Come on. If a woman is pregnant and says “I’m not having this baby and I am aborting it” then that is her body, her right, and her life. Daddy has no right to force her into it. She is not socially maligned as being a pissy child who is running from her responsibilities. She is exercising her rights.

            Now, if a man is off the same mind and the mother says tough luck… then that’s it. That isn’t equivalent or equitable.

        • Auntie Alias

          It’s about *some* men not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.

          • OldandNavy

            Nope. It’s about rights. That all you got AA? Where’s the BILE? You feeling OK?

          • Auntie Alias

            It’s not often you guys get a rise out of me.

            You have the right to wear a condom.

          • OldandNavy

            True.

            I don’t, though I’m monogamous and snipped.

          • lady_black

            Then you have done your part. Good on you.

          • OldandNavy

            My part is the four children we are raising. The snipping part was because we decided that for was about right and five would work out poorly in restaurant booths.

          • lady_black

            Whatever.

          • OldandNavy

            Well it would.

          • Dennis M

            OUR actions? Who gestated the child? Child support is not the price of pregnancy or both parties would pay after an abortion.

          • Auntie Alias

            Who contributed the sperm?

          • Dennis M

            Me, but if my sperm doesn’t give me rights, why should it give me responsibilities?

          • Auntie Alias

            Don’t contribute your sperm then. Problem nipped right in the bud!

          • Dennis M

            Oh right, men who don’t want to be parents should just “keep it in their pants” for their entire life. While women demand we pay for their birth control because they can’t “keep it in their pants” long enough to save up 30 bucks for a bottle of pills.

          • Auntie Alias

            Hello? I said use condoms. Why is that so hard to understand?

          • Dennis M

            Women can use birth control too you dumb fuck!

          • fiona64

            Oh right, men who don’t want to be parents should just “keep it in their pants” for their entire life.

            Or get a vasectomy. If you want to be childfree, unfortunately that is your best option as a male.

            While women demand we pay for their birth control because they can’t
            “keep it in their pants” long enough to save up 30 bucks for a bottle of
            pills.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Thanks for proving how little you understand about hormonal contraception (and the ACA). It’s not a “bottle of pills,” it’s a pack that is to be taken in a specific order (the pills are numbered). Not all women can take pills, BTW … there are a number of reasons for this, often having to do with other medical factors.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There’s this thing called a condom, and while not 100% it’s pretty darn effective if you use it correctly.

          • Dennis M

            WOMEN HAVE OVER 40 FORMS OF BIRTH CONTROL YOU DELUDED PRINCESS! And we can’t tell when they are using any of them, unlike the condom! Why don’t you lecture THEM about personal responsibility!?

            If you feminists want women to be seen as equals, why do you hold them to such incredibly lower standards of responsibility!?

          • lady_black

            The world’s smallest violin is playing “My heart bleeds for you.”

          • Dennis M

            If you have a stack of safety nets that men couldn’t even dream of, and then cry “War on Women” when even one of them is in danger, then who in all unimpeachable FUCKS are you to tell us not to complain!?

            Oh right, because you’re a weak little girl, so you’re entitled to complain about not getting an all you can eat buffet while most men are begging for table scraps.

            The fact that you give women so much more freedom to complain, while telling men to “man up”, shoes you think men are stronger and more adult than women.

            Weak, pathetic little flower.

          • fiona64

            Reading Dennis’ posts reminds me of nothing so much as watching a two-year-old have a temper tantrum.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No, you’re paying child support because the child has the right to financial support from both its parents. That burden should not fall on me, the tax payer. It falls on you, the parent.

            This is not complex.

          • Dennis M

            AGAIN, then explain adoption, or anonymous sperm donation, or those women who decide not to sue the guy they bang for child support. The child DOES NOT have a right to financial support from both biological parents and everybody knows it. Otherwise those women would be charged with child abuse.

          • fiona64

            Since she assumes all of the physical risks of pregnancy, it’s her choice.

            Maybe you should, you know, have conversations with women before you take your johnson out of your pants and find out what they would do in the event of a contraception failure. Then, only screw women who take the position that agrees with yours. Pretty straightforward, yes?

            The child support is for the *child.*

          • Dennis M

            It’s not for the fucking child. Sperm donors don’t pay child support. Adoptees don’t pay child support.

            And if I decide to adopt a kid myself without my girlfriend’s permission I can’t force her to pay child support, even though it would be “for the child.”

            “Maybe you should, you know, have conversations with women before you take your johnson out of your pants and find out what they would do in the event of a contraception failure. Then, only screw women who take the position that agrees with yours. Pretty straightforward, yes?”

            Then why the fuck not give the father’s a say in abortion? It won’t be a problem if you only screw men who agree with you.

          • lady_black

            Child support IS for the child. An adoptee’s parents are responsible for supporting the child, because the birth parents are not the legal parents. Men will never have a say in abortion, because they are not pregnant. I will never have a say in any of YOUR medical matters either, because I am not YOU.

          • Dennis M

            And what makes me the legal parent of the child? Because I had sex? SEX IS NOT CONSENT TO PARENTHOOD OR THE PRO-CHOICE ARGUMENT IS BUNK! Genes do not make you a parent or assign parental responsibility or adoption would be illegal! So would anonymous sperm donation or any procreation that stipulated no child support. If it were really “the rights of the child”, IT COULD NOT BE DECIDED BY THE WOMAN’S WHIM.

            PARENTHOOD IS A LEGAL AGREEMENT!

            You say both parents biological parents are liable to their children. If that were the case, ADOPTION WOULD BE ILLEGAL! If genes =/= parenthood, then what makes an unwilling man a parent? Nothing and you know it.

            Child support IS NOT about the rights of the child, its about subsidizing a woman’s decisions.

          • fiona64

            Then why the fuck not give the father’s a say in abortion?

            Let me make sure I understand your position very clearly.

            — If you get a woman pregnant, and you want to force her to abort, you should be able to do that.
            — If you get a woman pregnant, and you want to force her to remain pregnant, you should be able to do that.
            — If you get a woman pregnant and you somehow forced her to remain pregnant, you should be able to change your mind and not have to pay child support.
            — If you get a woman pregnant and she does not obey your demands that she abort, you should not have to pay child support.

            Does that just about cover it?

            How many life and health risks are you assuming by gestating a pregnancy, Dennis? Oh, yeah. None. But let’s leave that aside, shall we?

            Sperm donors sign an informed consent, as do recipients, that they are not responsible for child support. but you know that, right?

            I’m married and monogamous … and when I was single, I did have conversations with anyone I was considering sleeping with. If they were anti-choice, they didn’t get anywhere with me. I am the only one who decides how much medical risk I take, not you or anyone else. As my wanted pregnancy nearly killed me 28 years ago, I will not undergo it again. One of your charming friends opined that it is women’s *job* to be pregnant, and that my plan to terminate any pregnancies that might occur due to contraception failure (tubal ligations can, and do, fail) made me “violent, bitter and misandric.”

            Tell you what,Dennis: you have full control over every pregnancy that happens in your body. At that point, you’ll be assuming all of the risk. Your argument that women have no responsibility is asinine prima facie; do you imagine that the woman who has custody of your child is contributing nothing financially to that child’s upbringing?

          • Dennis M

            The average surrogate mother charges less than 1/5th of the 100,000 dollars child support usually costs. Child support is far worse than pregnancy? Don’t try to manipulate me with any disingenuous melodrama.

            Why should a woman get to say whether I am a slave for 18 years, but I can’t decide whether she follows through with a pregnancy? That’s completely hypocritical and you know it. And there’s no reason why I can’t keep my hands off her body and she can’t keep her hands off my wallet.

            Why can she use my body for 18 years (what the fuck do you think I use to labor, my mind!?) but I can’t use hers for 9 months. There’s no good reason and you know it. Child support is not “for the child” or it wouldn’t be decided by the mother’s whim.

            Women are not responsible for child support. Besides abortion they can leave father’s name off the birth paper and put it up for adoption.

          • fiona64

            what the fuck do you think I use to labor, my mind!?

            Oh, no, Denny. I have no delusions that you labor at much of anything with your mind.

            Child support is not “for the child” or it wouldn’t be decided by the mother’s whim.

            It’s decided by the *courts,* Dennis. Or do you think that some woman decided that the $1/month she was awarded was just fabulous? http://www.nbc12.com/story/21416300/judge-orders-1-a-month-in-child-support

            Women are not responsible for child support.

            That’s right, Dennis. Women with physical custody of children do nothing to support them. /snark

            Don’t try to manipulate me with any disingenuous melodrama.

            Pregnancy is not a state of wellness. It is actually quite risky, as a matter of fact. Women die from pregnancy related complications every single day, even in first-world countries. I was nearly one of them (not that you care, because a dead feminist is a-okay with you, right?). Here’s a list of just a few risks that you will never have to assume since you can’t get pregnant: http://www.womenshealth.gov/pregnancy/you-are-pregnant/pregnancy-complications.html#b

            I’m glad to have rectified so many unfortunate gaps in your education today.

          • Dennis M

            People to work every day! People die because they can’t afford healthcare everyday. So I know with certainty child support kills more people than pregnancy. The prices surrogate mothers charge relative to child support prove that you disingenuous princess.

            Child support is decided by the mother. If she doesn’t want her man to pay child support, the court does not force him to. The court is nothing but an agent of the mother, her personal bruiser.

          • Shan

            ” If she doesn’t want her man to pay child support, the court does not force him to.”

            If she ever needs to apply for public assistance, the court (state) definitely will.

          • lady_black

            That’s too bad. You don’t own her body because you ejaculated in it. Who ELSE ought to decide to gestate, other than the person gestating? Are you a slave-owner?

          • Dennis M

            Her decision = her responsibility. Ownership is a two way street, princess. Rights AND responsibilities. Yet you want me to have only responsibilities for my DNA, and you want only rights for your body.

            You are talking like women are fucking force of nature with no agency, that they just gestate my child like the wind blows. It was her fucking choice.

          • lady_black

            No. Children have parents. Not owners. Pets have owners. Children and women are not property. But parents are responsible for their children (unless someone else assumes the rights and responsibilities of parents through adoption.)

          • Dennis M

            Bullshit. Again, sperm donors do not pay child support. If child support is something the child is owed, then why should women ever be allowed to accept sperm from an anonymous donor? They’d be denying the child their rights, by your logic.

            And AGAIN, what makes me the parent? Sex is not consent to parenthood or the pro-choice arguments has no leg to stand on. DNA is not consent to parenthood or adoption would be illegal. Parenthood is a legal agreement.

          • Shan

            ” Again, sperm donors do not pay child support.”

            This has been ordered to.

            http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/23/justice/kansas-sperm-donation/

          • Dennis M

            So you support that? What about anonymous sperm donors. Do you think they should be illegal?

            Genes =/= consent to parenthood or adoption would be illegal.

            Sex =/= consent to parenthood or abortion would be illegal.

            So what moral basis does child support have to stand on? None and everyone knows it!

          • lady_black

            Well Dennis, it would be pretty darn hard to gestate anything without sperm, now wouldn’t it? So it IS why you’re paying support. YOUR KID, your responsibility. I didn’t have sex with your ex. YOU did.

          • Dennis M

            That’s like saying “I broke my arm with your hammer, you have to pay.” You are making me pay for your unilateral decision.

            Why the fuck should my sperm grant my responsibilities if it doesn’t grant me rights? It shouldn’t and you know it.

          • lady_black

            The rights are the child’s not yours.

          • Dennis M

            But the rights of the child are YOURS apparently, because child support is paid based on a mother’s whim. Sperm donors do not pay child support. Nor do parents who put their kids up for adoption.

          • lady_black

            Child support is never paid to a fetus. Pregnancy has nothing to do with child support. Child support is the right only of BORN children.

          • Dennis M

            A birth which was solely YOUR decision. If you are holding me responsible because I made a proximate decision, THAT IS CALLED VICTIM BLAMING.

        • lady_black

          Let me explain biology to you, In mammals, the male process of reproduction ends at coitus. The female process is far from over, and takes place entirely within her body. You want to have a say, you do it during YOUR part of the process. You do not own the body of a woman because you ejaculated inside it.

          • OldandNavy

            You assumed all of that and I said none of it….. and it’s besides the point of the above

          • Unicorn Farm

            No. You are incorrect. Both men and women are liable for monetary child support. Neither men nor women are obligated to lend a child the use of their bodies. Men and women have equal rights with respect to their children.

          • OldandNavy

            Meh. Reality snubs your assertion

          • Unicorn Farm

            Show me how it’s wrong. Tell me what right men lack when it comes to deciding whether to use their bodies to gestate a fetus.

          • OldandNavy

            You made a three part statement. Don’t latch on to one when considering responses.

            One, I was speaking to your assertion that men and women are both liable for monetary cold support. Technically correct, but not the reality enjoyed by most around me.

            Two, should a child result through failure of birth control etc. a man is obliged to await the female’s decision making…. and a judge’s as well, often enough.

            The reality that is disgusting numbers of men unjustly separated and alienated from their children is the reality that spoofs your third point above.

            Reality. Go to some meetings and listen to some. It isn’t pretty and it isn’t equal.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Ok so you’re complaining now that men are separated from their children too often, not that they are forced to pay child support. The constantly shifting goal posts of the mras get confusing. Regardless, you admit that I am legally and factually correct but claim that your anecdata trumps facts. News flash: anecdata doesn’t “spoof reality”. How can reality even be spoofed? What does that even mean?

            Don’t assume I don’t “listen” just because I disagree with you.

          • fiona64

            One, I was speaking to your assertion that men and women are both
            liable for monetary cold support. Technically correct, but not the
            reality enjoyed by most around me.

            Just for a moment, let’s use the example where a man is asked to pay child support (many bail out on this, as I’m sure you’re aware) to a woman who has physical custody of a child. Do you imagine that the woman lays out no expenditures whatsoever for child care?

            And how do you recommend that the woman who is receiving $1/month from this delightful individual is supposed to find that even remotely useful? http://www.nbc12.com/story/21416300/judge-orders-1-a-month-in-child-support

          • lady_black

            Exactly. He’s a moron like my ex-husband. He once commented that I was only interested in what I could put in my pocket (the princely sum of $35 a week). I answered that all of his son’s expenses come out of that pocket, so of course I expected him to help fill the pocket.

          • lady_black

            Look, Goober… if a woman is raising a child in her custody, do you think the money for that floats down magically from a tree in the backyard? Or do you deny that the uniform child support guidelines take into consideration the resources and expected costs from BOTH parents? Because having taken a domestic relations law class I can assure you that they do. There are not men “unjustly separated and alienated from their children.” There are only men who separate and alienate their own children. Men and women have equal rights and responsibilities to their children. Denying visitation to a non-custodial parent is an excellent way to lose custody. You do not have to meekly sit back and take that. On the other hand, it’s at YOUR expense (meaning you have to do the driving, buy the plane ticket or whatever) and a lot of men can’t be bothered. That doesn’t amount to “unjust separation.”

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            You’ll never get an answer.

          • lady_black

            You’re arguing law with a lawyer, mansplainer.

          • Dennis M

            What makes the child “mine” if I didn’t want to bring it into the world? The fact that it has half my DNA? By this same logic, people should pay child support to their rapists.

          • Unicorn Farm

            The child is yours because it has your DNA. Very good!!! It also has the right to be cared for by its parents. People are not required to pay child support to rapists because rapists are not the ones caring for children produced via rape. I’m not sure why you’d even suggest such a thing.

          • Dennis M

            AGAIN, this is bullshit. If genes = parent, and a child has the right to be cared for by its parents, then why the hell is adoption legal!?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I should have said that the child has the right to financial support from both its parents- not actual day to day physical care. You can’t force anyone to be a parent if that person doesn’t want to. But you can force him or her to pay. You know what I meant.

          • Dennis M

            AGAIN, adopted kids do not have financial support from both their parents. Or even one of their parents.

          • Unicorn Farm

            UGG you are dumb. That’s because the adoptive parents are paying for the child and the biological parents’ rights are severed.

          • Dennis M

            So a child is not entitled to support from its biological parents, idiot. So why should I have to pay child support? Give me a straight fucking answer.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why are you being so stupid, and belligerent? In the case of adoption, the biological parents do not have rights or obligations to the child. Why is this hard for you? If you knock up some girl and she gives birth without your permission, and does not give the baby up for adoption, you still have rights AND obligations to that child. If this wasn’t the case, the burden falls on the tax payer. In the case of adoption, the state’s interest in preventing that burden from falling on the tax payer isn’t present. Because the biological parents have no rights or responsibilities to the adopted child, they do not have to pay for it.

          • Dennis M

            “In the case of adoption, the biological parents do not have rights or obligations to the child. Why is this hard for you? If you knock up some girl and she gives birth without your permission, and does not give the baby up for adoption, you still have rights AND obligations to that child.”

            You’re not even making an argument. You are just stating what the law is.

            “In the case of adoption, the state’s interest in preventing that burden from falling on the tax payer isn’t present.”

            Bullshit. A child who is dropped off at the hospital, police department, or fire department requires state support. The mother is never required to pay into that. The burden falling on the tax payer in that case is just fine.

            Second, why should a mother be allowed to keep a child she can’t pay for herself? If she stubbornly hangs onto the child she can’t pay for, why shouldn’t she just be charged with child abuse? Sex is consent to nothing but sex, so child support is, by definition, theft (well, technically slavery, but I’ve already explained that). If a mother has to steal to support her child, it is, under all other circumstances, taken away by the CPS.

            Third, who the fuck are you to say the cost would have to be covered by the tax payer? Every woman has different earning potential, and the costs of child support is highly variable and scales to income. And how much does the child need exactly? Does it need to live 20X better than the average Sri Lankan? 40X? If this is really about covering the burden of the tax payer then, like welfare, it would need to have a cap and a lot of criteria to apply for it.

          • Dennis M

            So, again, why do I have to pay child support you drooling ape?

            We both know its not:

            A) Because I’m the biological parent
            B) Because I had sex

            So what in all fucks is it?

          • Unicorn Farm

            It would be because, unless the child was given up for adoption, your status as the biological parent gives you rights and responsibilities towards the child. The burden for paying for the child falls on you, the father, not the tax payer.
            Some how, I doubt you’re getting laid very much, so I’m not sure why you’re that concerned.

          • Dennis M

            “Unless the child is given up for adoption” renders the remainder of that sentence meaningless. It would be like saying “Unless you refuse to pay child support, your status as a biological parent gives you rights and responsibilities towards the child.”

            You’re basically saying “You have responsibilities to your child, unless I say you don’t.”

            So what if I’m not getting laid? You feminists scum tell us to “keep it our pants” and then when we do, you call us losers.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “”Unless the child is given up for adoption” renders the remainder of that sentence meaningless. It would be like saying “Unless you refuse to pay child support, your status as a biological parent gives you rights and responsibilities towards the child.””

            dude, you’re not even making sense.

            “You’re basically saying “You have responsibilities to your child, unless I say you don’t.””

            Well, yeah. She has the right to give it up for adoption. You do, too. In that event, both your rights and responsibilities are severed. But you can’t make her give it up for adoption so that you can also relinquish your rights. She has the right to keep and care for her own child.

            “So what if I’m not getting laid? You feminists scum tell us to “keep it our pants” and then when we do, you call us losers.”
            I didn’t call you a loser. Read my post.

          • Dennis M

            “Unless the child was given up for adoption” renders the rest of that sentence meaningless. You are basically saying “You have responsibilities to your biological children, except when you don’t.” I might as well say “Unless I refuse to pay child support, I have an obligation to provide for my child.”

            You feminists scum tell us to keep it in our pants and then call us losers when we’re not getting laid?

          • fiona64

            You feminists scum tell us to keep it in our pants and then call us losers when we’re not getting laid?

            I know, right? Especially when a fellow displays the kind of charm when you do here. It’s a real puzzle, isn’t it? /sarcasm

          • kitler

            There’s blood in my eye dawg and I can’t see.

          • fiona64

            A) Because I’m the biological parent
            B) Because I had sex

            If you did not have sex, and are not the biological parent, why ARE you paying child support? Could it be because you a) had sex, and b) are the biological parent?

          • kitler

            Please speak in plain English you are confusing everyone.

          • fiona64

            I do what I can. ;-)

          • Dennis M

            Morally, I mean. Sex is consent to nothing but sex or the pro-choice argument is bunk. Biology is not consent to parenthood or adoption would be illegal and so would sperm donation.

          • kitler

            It aint easy bein a pimp

          • fiona64

            AGAIN, adopted kids do not have financial support from both their parents

            The adoptive parents *are* their parents. Are you saying that said adoptive parents do not provide financial support for their children?

          • Dennis M

            Exactly. So biology =/= forced parenthood, or there would be no adoption. If a child has the right to support of its biological parents, then why should it make a difference if both parents want to sever their ties. A right of the child is a right no matter what both parents think.

          • fiona64

            By this same logic, people should pay child support to their rapists.

            I’m not sure how you see that as logical …

            In any event, I’m sure you are aware that, in 31 states, rapists can sue for visitation if a pregnancy is gestated as a result of the crime, right? Is that okay with you, for a rapist to be able to have ongoing access to their victim?

          • Dennis M

            No. Now answer my fucking question. Should people pay child support to their rapists? In all 50 states its legal to make a male rape victim pay child support to his rapist, even if he’s under age. Look up “Fatherhood by conscription” by Micheal Higdon.

            Sex is not consent to parenthood, or the pro-choice argument falls apart. So you believe people should be forced into parenthood based on the fact the child has half their DNA. If so, you support Fatherhood By Conscription.

          • fiona64

            You’re the one making the assertion; you provide the citation. I’m not doing homework for an angry little boy.

          • Dennis M

            http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1761333

            Guess you’re too lazy to google for 10 seconds.

            Again, if I’m a little boy, then what are you, a fucking infant!? Women have a stack of safety nets man can’t even dream of and they scream like banshees when even one of these is under threat.

            So if I’m a little boy for complaining about child support your feminists friends are wailing infants.

          • lady_black

            If you are raped, that doesn’t change your DNA to half someone else’s. Not at all logical.

          • Dennis M

            So if I’m raped, the child is still half mine, and I should pay child support. Yes or no?

          • fiona64

            I guess it depends on the jurisdiction in which you live, doesn’t it? You are calling for a great deal of speculation in an area that is not at all black-and-white. You seemed to have no objection whatsoever to a male rapist being permitted visitation rights to a female victim who chose to gestate, so help me understand your view in the slightly different direction.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            one of the best replies to this issue I’ve seen. Kudos.

          • Dennis M

            Oh right, convenient how this logic is never used to give female exclusive responsibility for the resulting child, only exclusive rights.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No. Child support is owed by both parents because the child has a right to be cared for by its parents. If not, that burden falls on the tax payer.

            Gosh, some of you MRAs are pissed that women have babies with out your consent and you couldnt force them to have abortions, which you want the right to do, some of you are pissed that women have abortions without your consent, some of you are pissed that you have to pay child support, some of you are pissed that you are separated from your children. Wow. It’s all so confusing.

          • fiona64

            I think I can sum it up: “Everything is the fault of those bitches who won’t obey us.”

          • Unicorn Farm

            Exactly. “We are very upset that we are losing control over women!!!”

          • Dennis M

            You’re a fucking idiot. A man has no control after sex, while a woman gets to make colossal, life changing decisions for THREE different people (the child, the father, and herself).

            And you think WE’RE the power hungry ones!?

            We both know “my body, my choice” is a moot point because when your decisions effect others, it’s not longer just about “your body.” Can I punch you in the face and then scream “my body, my choice?”

          • Unicorn Farm

            Flagged for abuse. But also thanks for proving my point.

            “A man has no control after sex, while a woman gets to make colossal, life changing decisions for THREE different people (the child, the father, and herself).”

            Yes. Because she is the one doing the gestating.

            “We both know “my body, my choice” is a moot point because when your decisions effect others, it’s not longer just about “your body.””
            False. That’s not how the inquiry goes. If I elect not to donate a kidney to you, that choice effects you. Even though it’s not just effecting my body, the choice is still mine. Just like with gestation- I am the only one who chooses who uses my body. Even if that choice effects someone else.
            Better luck next time.

          • Dennis M

            Implying we want control over women is Ad Homenium and you know it. Don’t flag me for abuse you fucking coward.

            You’re insane. You are literally using a “mite makes right” justification. Saying she should have that power because she gestates the child is like saying I can rob a bank because I’m the one who’s risking my life and hauling the money.

            Refusing to donate a kidney is not taking anything from me, it’s simply refusing to give. I’m no worse off than if you hadn’t existed. Birthing a child does take something from me for 18 fucking years.

            We both know “he chose to have sex” is an invalid point because sex is consent to nothing but sex. So TELL ME, how far does the “right to do whatever you want with your own body” extend? Give me a fucking straight answer. Can I pick someone’s pocket and defend it with “my body, my choice?”

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Implying we want control over women is Ad Homenium and you know it. Don’t flag me for abuse you fucking coward.”
            You mad, bro?

            “You’re insane. You are literally using a “mite (sic) makes right” justification. Saying she should have that power because she gestates the child is like saying I can rob a bank because I’m the one who’s risking my life and hauling the money.”
            No. No one has the right to use my body without my consent, ever, and that includes a fetus that needs it to gestate. You don’t even understand the argument well enough to state it.

            “Refusing to donate a kidney is not taking anything from me, it’s simply refusing to give. I’m no worse off than if you hadn’t existed.”
            Same with the fetus. I refuse to give my bodily resources, it dies.
            “Birthing a child does take something from me for 18 fucking years.”

            Huh? Your needs aren’t part of the kidney analogy. That’s between the woman and the fetus. Wow. In any event, a woman’s choice to have a baby doesn’t take away money from you. That’s the state. Besides, if you are SO concerned about this, get yourself snipped. I highly doubt that are THAT many women out there eager to bear and raise YOUR baby.

            “We both know “he chose to have sex” is an invalid point because sex is consent to nothing but sex.”

            Irrelevant. The obligation to pay child support doesn’t grow out of consent to sex, it grows out of the child’s right to be materially provided for.

            “So TELL ME, how far does the “right to do whatever you want with your own body” extend? Give me a fucking straight answer.
            Can I pick someone’s pocket and defend it with “my body, my choice?”

            You, just like women, have the right to withhold the use of your body from others. If someone wishes you to donate material parts of your body to them, or let them use your body (like for sex), and you don’t want to, you don’t have to let them.

          • Dennis M

            “Wow. In any event, a woman’s choice to have a baby doesn’t take away money from you. That’s the state.”

            You can’t be fucking serious! That’s like hiring a hitman and then saying “I didn’t kill him, the mafia did!” They’re agents deployed by the woman’s choice.

            “Same with the fetus. I refuse to give my bodily resources, it dies. ”

            And same with child support. Except the child doesn’t die. It just lives 20X better than the average Indonesia instead of 30X better.

            “No one has the right to use my body without my consent, ever, and that includes a fetus that needs it to gestate.”

            Then where the hell did I give consent for the woman to use MY body!? Not from sex, because, for the fuckteenth time, SEX IS CONSENT TO NOTHING BUT SEX.

            And yes, she’s using my body, because I’m required to earn money, not just pay her a piece of what I’ve already earned (like taxes). If forcing you to labor for someone’s enrichment is not slavery, there is nothing on the Earth that IS slavery and we both know it!

            “Besides, if you are SO concerned about this, get yourself snipped. I highly doubt that are THAT many women out there eager to bear and raise YOUR baby.”

            How fucking times are you going to pedal this disingenuous bullshit? Women have over 40 forms of birth control and yet still have safety nets men can’t even dream of.

            “You, just like women, have the right to withhold the use of your body from others”

            No I don’t. What the hell do you think I use to labor for the requisite child support payments, my fucking MIND!? What do you think they thrown in jail if I fail to make my payments? My MIND!? I do not have the right to my own body. My body can be forced into labor or thrown in a prison cell.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Wow dude- are you angry? You seem a little wound up about this. I’m just going to let you keep writing, because I think you’re doing such a bang-up job of destroying your own credibility that there’s not much I can add on that front. Plus, your poor sentence structure is hard to comprehend and I don’t feel like trying to interpret your myriad, increasingly violent posts.

          • Dennis M

            Sorry, it’s called conviction. Feminists wouldn’t know what that’s like so I don’t expect you to understand.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I know you are but what am I!”- MRA

          • kitler

            I’m bringin’ hairy back.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Very exist of you fioan.
            Do you see a professional for your self loathing and internalized misogyny?

          • Dennis M

            Won’t obey US!? The only one who gets to make colossal decisions for three different parties after sex is the woman!

            Jesus Christ, you are so drunk on power you can’t even see your own god-complex.

          • fiona64

            Then I suggest, Denny, that you keep your johnson in your pants.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            And fiona,, you keep your legs closed.

          • Dennis M

            Men have sex, women are the victims of sex according to feminists.

          • fiona64

            I already told you, I’m married to a delightful man. I’ll have as much non-procreative sex as I so desire. I really hate to decline your charming invitation yet again, Danny, but your constant requests are beginning to border on harassment. And you wonder why you MRAs have so much trouble with women. Hmm.

          • Dennis M

            Tell that to women you spoiled little princess. How many fucking safety nets do they have!? Abortions, state funding for those abortions, 44 forms of birth control, insurance mandates on all those birth control, welfare, adoption (she doesn’t need his permission, just leave his name off the birth papers).

            Your little cult of bodily autonomy doesn’t get to work only when its convenient for you. Autonomy is a two way streets, rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES. If you bring the child into the world unilaterally, you should be unilaterally responsible. Don’t give me the “it’s for the child” bullshit. We both know that’s not true. Sperm donors don’t pay child support. Adoptees don’t pay child support. And if I adopt a child without your consent I can’t force you to support. Child support is about consent to parenthood AND SEX IS NOT CONSENT TO PARENTHOOD OR THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT HAS NO LEG TO STAND ON!

          • fiona64

            Again, perhaps you should consider having discussions with the women silly enough to want to sleep with you, and only have intercourse with those who are in concurrence with your position, you angry little boy.

          • Dennis M

            I would you idiot. But “having discussions” is not enough for women. They want legal mechanisms to enforce their partner’s promises and keep their own freedom. So it shouldn’t be enough for men either.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I suggest you don’t have sex, then.

          • Dennis M

            You call it a “War on Women” if women have to stop having sex long enough to save up 30 bucks for a bottle of pills. If you think women are equal to men why do you hold yourself to such mind-boggingly lower standards of responsibility?

          • lady_black

            Um, NO.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          Women have uteri. Men don’t.
          There’s you free biology lesson of the day.

          • Dennis M

            You’re right. The female gestates the child and brings it into the world. Not the male.

            So she should be exclusively responsible.

          • lady_black

            Stay away from uteri completely, and we will.

          • Dennis M

            Okay, keep our DNA out of your uterus if you don’t want us to have a say in what happens to it.

            Jesus Christ, even you know you’re a hypocrite.

          • fiona64

            Okay, keep our DNA out of your uterus

            Somehow, I don’t think that’ll be a problem.

      • Whothehell Cares

        You first.

        • Auntie Alias

          No pregnancy worries here.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            I love when you tell an MRA to use his birth control and he whines about it while complaining about no male bc pill and wanting to get out of being a parent.

          • OldandNavy

            Absolutely non sequitur to the conversation. You trying to color and English At the same time there?

          • A. T.

            Condoms aren’t full proof. I would like men to have back up options.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            My reply was to auntie suggesting that a man use the BC options he has NOW, not in the future, so your comment makes no sense in the context from which I was speaking.

            I would love for men to have bcp but they should learn to use what they have at present instead of trying to abdicate responsibility. The problem with the male bcp so far, is that it has the potential to make men sterile.

            Hell, I’d love for men to get bloated and headaches from having to take a pill. Let them experience it. No complaints from me.

          • OldandNavy

            Women have options, there, and don’t HAVE to take a pill. If you get headaches and boating. … try something else.

          • Dash Riprock

            Women also have condoms. You agree they are effective. If your argument is correct, women should not want or need the pill, especially considering the side effects you mentioned. Yet the pill ‘set women free’ and use has been widespread. Might not a male pill set men free?

          • A. T.

            Ah, gotcha. Thought you were entering the other discussion. My apologies.

          • Dennis M

            Lol, responsibility:

            How dare I gestate the child to term! You’ll pay you bastard!

          • lady_black

            OK. Vasectomy.

          • OldandNavy

            OK. Tubal ligation.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Nope. That’s a serious surgery not even remotely compared with a vasectomy.

          • Dennis M

            Getting a vasectomy isn’t like getting a hair cut. What makes tube tying more severe, princess?

          • lady_black

            A back-up option for a man is NOT called “tubal ligation” smartass.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            spermicide with a condom is very effective.

          • McLargehuge510

            What’s your favorite method of getting out of being a parent?

          • OldandNavy

            Avoiding sex with dodgy women had worked for me.

    • A. T.

      I want male birth control on the market as soon as possible.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      You can’t force a woman to have an abortion and wear a condom or lobby for the pill for men. You cannot have a get out of paying for my child card. That’s called ‘not taking responsibility’ which apparently you dudes are so fond of.

      • OldandNavy

        It’s called having equivalent rights to “not take responsibility” that women now have.

        • lady_black

          Yes, as I explained many times, men have exactly the same rights with one exception. They have no rights in a PREGNANCY, unless they are the one pregnant.

  • dfghn

    Why do you think 50 shades of gray was so popular among women? Read this –

    Q – Has anybody purposely put themselves in a position where rape could occur?

    Poster 1 – Yes I do this!

    Poster 2 – Only with people I actually WANT to be in that situation with. I definitely tease and provoke and then refuse just to get things headed down that path, but only when I am ready and willing to follow through.

    Poster 3 – Have jumped alone into cars with strange men when thumbing a lift, turned up at drunken parties in a mini skirt with no other girls there, deliberately teased two stalkers Ive had, and teasing one unstable guy I know currently. (that pisses my man off though so Ive had to stop but it so tempting)

    Poster 4 – As a young naive young teen couple we unwittingly placed ourselves in a situation that resulted in a rape…

    Months later and not so naive all our atempts to recreate or experience a similar event failed.

    Aint life a bitch sometimes

    Poster 5 – I have always hung out with nothing but guys. I used to go to alot of house parties. There would be maybe one or two other girls. One night I was the only girl left. I downed some pills infront of the guys (I knew them all well, went to school with them) and drank tons of vodka.

    The thing is the pill were not anything that would hurt me. But I let them think that they were. And I can drink anyone under a table. However I told them I did not feel well and I was going to go lay down. I went to the back bedroom hiked my skirt to where you could see what i was working with and pretended to be passed out.

    Many of my friends opened the door and looked in. only a few took what I was giving.

    And many, many more posts like these by women. Go figure.

    rapeboard. com/showthread.php?t=26954

  • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

    Ms Alex DiBranco (lovely name btw)

    You did an excellent and concise job of summing up the pity party that was the MRA con. I am very thrilled you managed to put Elam’s exact quotes up there for all to see. I think out of all the articles on this con, all of them, so far yours is the best.

    Mancheeze at WordPress, run by me has more quotes from the con, especially from Warren Farrell who these MRA’s say is their ‘guru.’

    • OldandNavy

      Who? Where?

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

        It is good for a laugh.
        She shamelessly panders for donations. Apparently her and her mouse’s ‘services’ are needing to be ,,lmao paid for.
        I say she should try yuk-yuks comedy open mic night.

        • Erik Miles

          “Because AVfM never panders to it’s audience’s base fears in order to pocket donations…”

          /s

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            It was the doubletree who informed AVFM of the threats.
            And I’m really not to fond of the threats I’ve seen coming from feminists either.
            Nor am I please at the libelous google poisoning of my name by feminists.
            And I wasn’t pleased when a feminist attacked me with a makeshift weapon back in 2011.
            But you carry on spreading your hyperbole about AVFM
            And we’ll keep growing.

          • Auntie Alias

            But according to the AVFM lawyer, there were no credible threats.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Hindsight is 20/20 Auntie. The AVFM lawyers letter comes after doubletree’s letter claiming there were threats. AVFM acted in good faith based on doubletree’s claims.
            Do try and keep things in proper order ok,
            The courts will.

          • Auntie Alias

            It appears that the fund-raising for “free speech” was still going on at a point where AVFM would have known the threats were bogus.

            Let’s also remember that feminists were accused of death threats with absolutely no evidence, including the alleged letter from the DoubleTree. That melodramatic video where individual AVFMers intoned “They are trying to silence me” looks even sillier now.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You need to put your glasses on Auntie.
            AVFM’s lawyer letter happens well after what you claim. The threats were claimed to have occurred by doubletree. The onus now falls upon them to produce them when discovery happens.
            And is it common practice for doubletree to lie about security issues when a Canadian Senator is involved?
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/07/AVFM-Security-Letter.pdf
            First paragraph second sentence.
            Want me to book an eye doctor visit for your new prescription Auntie?

          • Auntie Alias

            On June 2, Elam posted a video still claiming there were death threats. On June 5, the AVFM lawyer acknowledged in a letter that there were no credible threats. It seems unlikely that Elam didn’t know this a mere three days earlier.

            Discovery for a civil suit?

            I guess we’ll find out who the liars are if this goes to court.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Count on it.
            I’m betting AVFM is wanting this to go to court more so than doubletree or feminists.
            The level of desire by feminists resembles the level of desire feminists showed in finding d’Etremont’s ‘assaulter’.

          • Auntie Alias

            Oh I look forward to it!

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You look forward to eating crow Auntie?
            Odd.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            It is now a fact Paul knew the threats didn’t exist on June 2nd. At the end of a video he made on June 2nd he told people he was already talking to his lawyers about Doubletree. This PROVES he knew there were no threats and continued to collect money under that lie.

          • Auntie Alias

            I wouldn’t say it’s 100% proof but pretty darn close.

  • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

    So should I get coffee or tea while we play with our chew toy MRA’s? Bring snacks.

    • expect_resistance

      Coffee.

      • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

        You read my mind.

        • expect_resistance

          Light or dark roast?

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            I usually like Colombian and of course using a french press.

          • expect_resistance

            You read my mind. That was my next question. My favorite drink in the summer is a thick French press blend over ice and cream. It’s like espresso with 2%.
            Although I like a dark almost espresso roast.
            I like your blog glad you are here.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Thank you so much. You have no idea how much it means to get compliments on my work.

            I have a single serving french press. It was 25 bucks and worth every penny. The only thing I’m always afraid of is dropping it but I’ve had it for 6-7 months now and so far so good.

            I need to get a bean grinder. Maybe at the end of summer.

          • expect_resistance

            Again you read my mind. I prefer the single press at work but the larger french press on the weekend. We will have to chat on your blog away from the pesky trolls.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Sounds good. Let me know ur handle so I can place u.

          • OldandNavy

            Colombian? Huh. The roaster i prefer over here uses mostly Indonesian and African beans, though I think the varieties are similar in a few of them.

            The only thing I have yet to agree with Joy on is that I prefer the press, as well.

        • OldandNavy

          You aren’t doing any chewing yet. Need a smaller chew toy? Or are you tired and bereft anything beyond the “screw those people because grrrr” you have already repeated in every post you have made on every related thread?

          Oh, coffee for me, as well.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      Joy,
      I’d suggest finishing what you have in your mouth already before breaking out your toys, try finishing off feasting on your foot.

  • crydiego

    OK forget about men but what about the boys. “Prosecutors say that, while the babysitter initiated the contact, the young boy was a willing participant.” google

    • OldandNavy

      No one cares. Boys are nothing more than future men and most folks want to get them to the hilt when they are easier to screw over.

    • Auntie Alias

      It’s statutory rape*, assuming intercourse took place. It doesn’t matter whether the boy was willing.
      *Or whatever charge is applicable in that jurisdiction.

    • OldandNavy

      The incriminating word there is boy. He’s boned. Women do, of course, get charged and convicted of statutory rape. … but lesser charges are usually sought.

      No one really reads past the b word, generally. Their next question is “how hot was she” or “he wanted it”.

      • A. T.

        I’m not entirely sure why the media does this, but it does it. It runs with it.

        • OldandNavy

          I’m not, either. I suppose they are just desperate to get the ratings. .. and the public keeps on giving them. Don’t watch that crud (main stream media outlets), myself.

          Though, CBS radio news seems to still understand journalism from editorial rants and sensationalism.

          On minor boys:

          We live in a country where an eight year old boy gets charged with lewd conduct with a minor because he touched his 14 year old babysitter’s breasts.. after she told him to.

          Telling mommy what went on sure worked out well for him. Charges were dropped. … but not a word about any for princess.

          • A. T.

            It’s more than that though. They find it something to sexualize, that they can sexualize. Sexy. They would almost never do that with an older man and a girl. My best guess is the cultural bullshit meets ‘look, she’s hot, that’s not what a predator is’ and that disaster happens.

            With Chris Brown, they wouldn’t even *call* it rape and he was 8! 8. You cannot consent 8 consent at 8 and what the hell?

            …*throws things*

  • Damian

    “Then there’s Elam’s 2010 post about women who go clubbing, accept drinks, make out, and enter a man’s apartment, who end up “victims” [quotation marks his] of rape. “In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED .. They are freaking begging for it. Damn near demanding it.””

    ———–

    You know, this completely sidesteps one issue. Which is, suppose a woman goes clubbing, accepts drinks, makes out, enters a man’s apartment………..

    One can take a purist viewpoint and say “no woman should ever be raped in such a circumstance” but it isn’t ever that simple. What’s the definition of rape? How pushy do you have to be before it is rape? And, regardless of how things ought to be, if two parties leave the room disagreeing on what really happened (aka, one says it’s rape the other says it isn’t), what can the criminal justice system do other than to say “we weren’t there, this interaction took place behind closed doors, with no video cameras recording it or anything of the like”? I notice how, despite all the furor, the frenzy, the hysteria, and the melodrama, NOBODY actually confronts this issue head on. It’s almost like they are too much loving to hear the sound of their own voice to ever confront the practical issues head on which is the only way any kind of solution could be developed. Then again, for some people, solutions spoil all of the fun and problems solvers are wet blankets to them who “just don’t get it.”

    Thing is, there is more than the criminal justice system. There is culture. There are in some areas tight knit communities, which tend to be more protective in certain ways, and which are more effective at the kind of social control and structure young men often need not to run amuck.

    Oh and that’s another thing. Especially when people are young, there are going to be problems. ESPECIALLY if you start adding in the influence of alcohol and illegal drugs.

    But, still, I think it is worth it for me to point out, there is evil in this world. There is real abuse in this world which is SERIOUS and SEVERE. There are atrocities which are committed in society. The woman who went to a guy’s apt and started to have sex, tried to back out and he didn’t let her and forced her to go through with it and it’s just normal sex and he is no sado masochist really has not been violated in that serious a matter, compared to some of the vicious, horrible, and atrocious things that DO go on in this society.

    Of course, if you are one of those elitist snotty types who wants to convey an aura of elitism, snobbery, and privilege, then of course one wants to always focus on trivial things and blow them way out of proportion — all to convey an impression to others that you don’t have the same problems other people have, that you are of privilege. And being of privilege means you complain about things that people who are of privilege complain about. You know, stuff like how “isn’t it just so terrible the way it is so hard to get good help these days.” You complain about trivial stuff like that, as if they were (or should be) big federal cases, all to show off to everyone how rich you must be, so that problems as minor as that are the worst problems you have.

    And, of course, one big reason why I can tell, it’s all for show and a way of ostentatiously trying to act snobby is, all those feminists who try to say it’s outrageous to question the vast seriousness and horrificness of the rich girl who succumbed to too much pressure vis-a-vis sex and he wasn’t sensitive enough blah blah blah, never actually try to address the down-to-earth practical question that ought to follow initially stating something is a problem. Which is how in the world is the criminal justice system somehow supposed to do what they allege they want it to do? Aka, interfere in even the most ambiguous cases of unwanted sex?

    I note, I read an article on how men are starting to record their sexual encounters, so there is proof and they can’t be hauled away on false rape charges. Feminists who say women should be allowed to go to a man’s room alone and afterwards claim rape and have the criminal justice system do something about it for some reason never thought of that idea. Yet it was always doable. It’s impossible for the criminal justice system to ever actually get involved fairly in such cases unless everything is basically documented or recorded. Then again, feminists seem very keen on vague open-ended complaints, even while simultaneously very short on practical solutions to such complaints.

    Again, complaining “isn’t it terrible how” blah blah blah (how it is so hard to get decent help these days) is pretty much a bunch of hot air if not accompanied with constructive practical solutions. If nobody wants to go beyond the melodramatic “isn’t it terrible that…[etc.]” statement, then it’s clear, this is nothing but a religious ritual, the “talking about rape but not doing anything practical about it” thing. Almost like how in Church, they are always trying to pray Satan away. And it gives the superstitious a certain kind of comfort to always do it out loud and loudly.

    • Unicorn Farm

      Mods, can we please go ahead and have this steaming pile of blatant rape apologia deleted so no one else has to read it? K. Thx.

      • OldandNavy

        I think I can see vaguely where he was coming from on that one but yeah, sounds pretty bad.

        • Unicorn Farm

          It is bad. He explicitly excuses rape. This person needs to remove himself from society if he cannot understand that having sex with someone against her (or his) will is morally and legally wrong.

        • A. T.

          He went past the point of ‘this is a helpful point and draws needed attention a) attention to male victims and b) making sure we have evidence before rapists of either gender are convicted and c) false allegations are a crime and need to be addressed without demonizing rape victims.

      • Damian

        Oh please. I have been a victim of serious rape and extremely serious other kinds of abuse that coincided with it or were connected to it. And the victim of — guess what? CORRUPTION.

        I know what the real problems are that rape victims face. Not just male victims. Female victims too. And I notice how, for all their focus on attempting to redefine rape to include minor stuff, feminists are silent on certain evils in the system that enables perpetrators impunity. And so long as they are silent on it, this situation will keep going on this way.

        So what’s that say about how full of it they are?

        A lot.

        I will not have respect for individuals who lie about rape in manners that result in more people being abused. And that’s what they are doing.

        And even as they lie about certain problems that result in victims being victimized in HORRIFIC ways — I’m not talking about ambiguous stuff — they focus all of their attention on minor issues like a woman who felt pressured or agreed but regretted it. Something is wrong there, for them to do that. When they should focus on the problems that result in serious abuse and rape of vulnerable individuals. Then again, it’s more profitable to focus on the minor trivial slights affecting the rich than to focus your concern on the vulnerable of society who REALLY get shafted.

        I find it offensive. And I have a right to find it offensive.

        • Unicorn Farm

          Take your rape apologia elsewhere. I am sorry that you were victimized. However, being a victim doesn’t give you the right to endorse rape that you feel “isn’t so bad”, and that is exactly what you did in your first post. That sort of talk is NOT welcome here.

          • Damian

            Look, I know how the legal system works. I’ve observed it many many times.

            I’m not going to genuflect on the altar of “rape” viewed as an abstract issue. What matters are victims — who are real people, and not abstract pseudo-religious ideologies or politically correct “rules” regarding how you are supposed to talk about rape or not. And what matters are the practical aspects of how the system should best deal with the matter so as to protect potential victims in the best way it can.

            It just so happens to be the case that expanding the definition of rape to include increasingly trivial stuff has the same impact on the legal system as prohibition did — which didn’t stop alcohol drinking so much, it simply increased corruption which caused the murder rate to rise ten fold.

            It matters when feminists attempt to systematically push law in a direction that makes the system more corrupt. Because, that results in serious rape cases being covered up, and victims treated awfully.

            Furthermore, so long as the war on drugs we have in the USA has increased corruption in the criminal justice system to such a high level, the system cannot be trusted and rape should not be defined in a manner so as to encourage overuse of a corrupted system.

            Thats not rape apologia – that’s reality. If you are a victim, you care that people focus on reality and on substance rather than on fluff. To call my statement rape apologia is simply a kind of policing of language. Nothing more. But, if you are a victim — it’s reality that matters. And silencing people who point out the truth hurts victims.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Look. I’m a victim and a lawyer and your rape apologia is not welcome here. I understand how the legal system works. I am a part of that system. I also have experience being a victim, because I am one. This is not a matter of tone policing. In your first post you explicitly excused rape, saying that a woman who was forced to continue having sex against her will was not seriously violated. That language SHOULD be silenced. Take your need to excuse rape and blame feminists for rape somewhere else. It is not welcome here.

          • Damian

            No I said it was nothing compared to other things that go on.

            You are trying to silence me because I am criticizing the system.

            Nobody is allowed to talk about the realities of rape — when doing so makes the system you work for look bad.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Who the fuck do you think you are telling a victim of rape what’s ‘nothing’ and what’s critical? Go fuck yourself with a red pill dude, srsly. You claim to be a victm of rape and you’re telling other victims how srs it shouldn’t be for them? Really dude, you need to be jettisoned until you can stop mansplaining.

          • Damian

            You’re the one who is the real rape apologist here.

          • Unicorn Farm

            What Joy said, below. You DO NOT GET to categorize other people’s rapes as bad, not so bad, or not problematic at all. You have no right to do so. Your man status, your victim status, your status as some observer of the legal system do not give you the right to do this. You have continuously excused the rape of women all over this board. That is disgusting and vile. I cannot believe you think you have any credibility here.

          • Damian

            You’re trying to distract attention from the real issues that affect victims — and away from the evils of the crooked system that pays you.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh shut up. You don’t get to decide who is a real victim.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t get to make that call. Period.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You’re trying to distract attention from the real issues that affect victims — and away from the evils of the crooked system that pays you”

            No.. I’m not. You are the one trying to exclude an entire category of victims because you don’t think their rapes were “bad enough”.

            I practice civil litigation and regulatory compliance. The evil crooked criminal justice system does not pay me. Calm down.

          • lady_black

            You are an egregious mansplainer.

          • Damian

            Yeah right. You want it to be that you and a close circle of corrupt crooked cops and attorneys and other closely related professionals are the sole arbiters of who gets to decide who was a victim and who wasn’t. And why you want to have total totalitarian control over decreeing victimhood and non-victimhood — when so many of the worst serial perpetrators are drug dealers who distribute all those nice cushy bribes and other “goodies” to those who will look the other way? And where the worst kind of abuse occurs in settings where rich bar owners and the like are able to make it worth YOUR while to the tune of lots of privilege and $$$$$$ simply re-abuse rape victims again who were unfortunate enough to be abused by people connected to or employed by their establishments.

            This is all about money and control and privilege.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Yeah right. You want it to be that you and a close circle of corrupt crooked cops and attorneys and other closely related professionals are the sole arbiters of who gets to decide who was a victim and who wasn’t. And why you want to have total totalitarian control over decreeing victimhood and non-victimhood — when so many of the worst serial perpetrators are drug dealers who distribute all those nice cushy bribes and other “goodies” to those who will look the other way? And where the worst kind of abuse occurs in settings where rich bar owners and the like are able to make it worth YOUR while to the tune of lots of privilege and $$$$$$ simply re-abuse rape victims again who were unfortunate enough to be abused by people connected to or employed by their establishments.”

            I really do not understand why you think any of the above has anything to do with me.

          • fiona64

            You know, over on LJF there was some dude who said date rape wasn’t “real rape” and when a bunch of survivors stepped forth to call him out (myself among them), he asked that we classify our rapes on a scale of badness. There is no such thing as the “rapiest rape of all rapes,” as that dude and Damian here want to pretend: there is only rape. And yes, I think Damian is an apologist … because he is saying that the rape of which he was a victim is the rapiest rape of all rapes, and other rapes were really rapes at all.

  • Erik Miles

    I’m a little late to the party, so I guess it’s pretty safe to assume that what’s been said on both sides has already been said. So instead, I’m just quote what one of my favorite internet celebrities said over twitter.

    (I’m just gonna add this little caveat beforehand that this more directed towards the AVfM crowd. I’m aware that, despite how non-vocal they are, moderate MRAs (meaning MRAs that actually ally themselves with feminists) do exist. So to you guys, just remember that this not directed at you, but rather your more extreme, crazy counterparts)

    “Problem with MRA is, even if they DID have a point about “equality,” the modern world IMPROVES as oldschool masculinity recedes in import. The panic that drives “Men’s Rights” is the same that drives Al-Qaeda and the Christian Right: A growing realization that they are obsolete. A mechanized, digitized world of science no longer requires the physical strength and single-mindedness associated with brute masculinity just as it functions better with the superstitions of moralism holding it back. So what are the lingering remnants doing? Getting mad. Because it’s natural for things to rage against their own mortality and/or obsolescence. The trick is to contain the fire and let it burn out. Let the “real men” and “true believers” scream and cry and stomp their feet in their own little space, smack `em down when step out and in a generation or two they’ll be a bad memory of the Inferior World we used to have to live in.”

    Since I know doxxing seems to be an encouraged thing with the AVfM crowd, I’m keeping the identity anonymous.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      Bob is lost, but feel free to provide us with more pearls of his ignorance.

      • Erik Miles

        I guess I underestimated just how obsessive you guys tend to be whenever someone popular on the internet mentions the word, “MRA”.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Know your opponent, a bit of advice you should pass on to Bob.

          • Erik Miles

            I’ll keep that in mind.

  • Razedbywolvs

    “I was proud to be among those feminist women who worked on the campaign to improve the FBI definition of rape.”
    The new definition of rape is: “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another
    person,
    Wow you didn’t think to add the word consensual or force. You have essentially made everyone a rapist. I call that “rape culture”.

    • Erik Miles

      Actually, you misquoted.
      What they actually said was,
      “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
      http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

        Funny how forced envelopment never made the list despite what I’m sure were feminists best efforts.
        Oh wait feminists are proud of those efforts.

        • Erik Miles

          Well, it’s naturally assumed that forced envelopment falls under the same category as “forced penetration”.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Your assumption is wrong.
            Much like your assumptions about the MHRM.

          • Erik Miles

            So you’re saying the penetrator in this scenario can’t be forced to penetrate? (i.e. a woman/girl forcing a man/boy to penetrate an orifice)?

            After all, the victim, at least according to the definition, can be any gender. So who’s to say the “victim” and the “penetrator” can’t be the same person?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            No I’m saying the FBI and other crime tracking agencies don’t record it as rape.
            My position and I believe I can say this for the greater MHRM is;
            Forced sex is rape.

          • Erik Miles

            No, you were saying that feminists were proud of their efforts to exclude men (despite evidence to the contrary). You never mentioned anything about FBI.

            Right, “Forced sex is rape”…
            …which can also translate to, “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Original comment mentions FBI.
            You should look up what Koss had to say about male rape victims;
            “Mary P. Koss insists on a definition of rape that conceals the incidence of female-on-male rape;

            The center for disease control (CDC) is a government entity charged
            with serving the entire public and all citizens of the United States
            equally;

            There is an appearance that Mary P. Koss has by her association with
            the CDC influenced it to formulate findings in a way that favors one
            group of citizens over another, that in fact significantly disadvantages
            the second group of citizens;

            Anyone in a position of public trust, including any position
            supported by public funds, has a responsibility to prevent her or his
            private opinions from compromising the mission of the organization she
            or he serves to serve all citizens equally;

            There is an appearance that rather than preventing her personal
            opinions from compromising the mission of the organization she is
            associated with, she has allowed those personal opinions to influence
            the function of that public entity.”
            http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/male-disposability-and-mary-p-koss/
            Try again

          • Erik Miles

            And assuming that’s true, that is unfortunate that Mary P Koss did that.

            But unfortunately, she’s not the one who has the final say on what the criminal definition of “Rape” is. That would be the job of FBI Director Robert S. Muller. He’s the one has the final say in the matter. Also, at least according to what the Department of Justice claims, they didn’t receive their data from CDC. Their data came from the UCR, or the Uniform Crime Report.

            So even if we were to assume Mary K. Koss did change her findings in order to fit a certain narrative, it wouldn’t matter if she did (at least not according to the FBI)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So the FBI doesn’t rely on ‘expert’ advice?

          • Erik Miles

            They do. It’s just, in the case, it was the UCR, not the CDC. It’s not the CDC’s job to gather information on criminal activity.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So Koss is considered an expert on rape by the CDC (among other government entities) and she puts forth a definition widely accepted and endorsed by the government. Yet you fail to see how this ultimately would have an impact on institutions that record the prevalence of crimes in this case the crime of rape.
            Is this correct?

          • Erik Miles

            Koss is considered an expert within the CDC; not the FBI. The report from the Department of Justice doesn’t mention Koss or the CDC in any way. They only mention that the reports that came from UCR was what ultimately influenced their decision to change the criminal definition of rape.

            So unless you can prove that Koss had some sort influence within the FBI or the UCR, then what the CDC thinks of Rape doesn’t matter.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I suggest you familiarize yourself with just how many different govt panels and studies she has been involved in and then get back to me about your position.
            Koss’ C.V.
            http://publichealth.arizona.edu/sites/publichealth.arizona.edu/files/directory/cvs/KOSSCV2011.pdf

          • Erik Miles

            So you’re “rebuttal”, is essentially giving me her resume?
            I mean, good for her that she’s apparently a very accomplished doctor. But that still doesn’t prove the CDC or Koss had any bearing on how the FBI or the UCR defined rape.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            If you can look at Koss’ C.V and not see, given her level of world wide influence on the definition of rape, how her views would affect the the FBI then you sir are beyond help.
            Go claim your Joy hero biscuit and help try and sell society down the river.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, you’ve presented a theory. In which case, fine, you’re free to do that. But you’ve yet to actually prove that.

            For example, you still haven’t really explained explained why Koss and CDC as never mentioned in the Department of Justice’s report, despite being as “influential” as you claim them to be.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Friedman, the one who said they helped the FBI define rape references Koss’ work about 5 minutes in here.

            Hence Koss’s influence whether you like to admit it or not did make an impact on the changing of the definition.

            I’ll let you get on with shedding your male tears with Joy now

            http://youtu.be/PVitdIUVmHg

          • Erik Miles

            Actually, this just raises more questions. For one thing, how come Jaclyn Friedman was never mentioned in the Department of Justice’s report? After all, in the video, she never mentions the Department of Justice, the CDC, the UCR, or FBI Director Robert S. Muller (so is the actual guy who has the final say in the matter) . In fact, as far I can tell from her history, she’s never worked the Department of Justice or the UCR.

            So I ask you…what do Koss, the CDC, and Jaclyn Friedman have to do with the FBI’s decision to change the definition of rape?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            The answer if you’ve not figured it out yet is that Koss’ flawed study(s) is where it all starts. Friedman uses it as does DiBranco, who in the op mentions she helped advise the FBI, which we already established use experts in their work.

          • Erik Miles

            Again, neither Friedman or DiBranco are mentioned by the Department of Justice, UCR, or the FBI. And yeah, we did say they used experts, who in this case, are the UCR. And as far as I can tell, Friedman and DiBranco didn’t have anything to do with that process.

            At this point, all you seem to be doing is pointing feminist author who’ve “claimed” that they’ve “advised” the FBI…without any confirmation from the FBI. For all we know, “advised” could just mean they’ve looked at the thing. They’ve never mentioned anything about talking Robert S. Muller, who was the actual person who approved the definition.

            At this point, it just seems like you’re naming off feminist journalists who’ve talked about rape in any capacity in the past year or so.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Actually what is being shown is a pattern of the same flawed work done by Koss being used by many organizations.
            But feel free to ignore that pattern.

          • Erik Miles

            Again, you’ve presented a nice little theory, and that’s all well and good.
            …but you’ve yet to actually prove that, that actually happened.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            A theory backed by facts.

            Now do you have any evidence to the contrary?

          • Erik Miles

            No, you haven’t. You’ve presented plenty of theories, but you’ve yet actually prove that they in fact actually occurred.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So people referencing and promoting Koss’ work, the very same people who helped create the new definition of rape, shows no influence by Koss.
            Ok sunshine just what are those irrefutable acts then?
            Fiction?
            Now where is your proof with some facts to back it up, as I have provided, it hasn’t happened that way.

          • Erik Miles

            The burden of proof is not on me. I’m not the one making assertions that feminist journalists somehow are influencing the inner workings of the Department of Justice or the FBI
            And so far, as Rebecca pointed earlier, you’re argument has been thus.

            “1. Federal agencies receive advice from experts
            2. Koss has provided expertise to many organizations
            3. Therefore, Koss has given expert advice to the FBI”

            So yeah, you’ve yet to prove that the FBI actually used the expertise of the CDC or Koss in formulating this new definition

          • rebecca

            This is pretty typical of the circular logic that conspiracy theorists, er I mean MRAs like to use.
            1. Federal agencies receive advice from experts
            2. Koss has provided expertise to many organizations
            3. Therefore, Koss has given expert advice to the FBI

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Rumors are started about a young girl on the internet. She commits suicide. Feminists blame those who started the rumor.
            Same circular logic you claim is being employed.
            Koss’ findings were flawed much like a rumor can be flawed.

          • lady_black

            Bad analogy, son. Nobody is disputing that this person has advised government officials on a variety of subjects. What is being disputed is that she had any influence upon the FBI’s redefinition of rape (which used to be admittedly really BAD, acknowledging rape only as carnal knowledge of a FEMALE body) to more precise and gender-neutral terms, which are actually pretty precise and gender neutral, despite your protestation to the contrary.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So you are positing that Koss, one of the most widely read, known and respected feminist researchers on rape, has no influence at all on definitions.
            yah surrrre seems legit.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Mark Koss did NOT do that. In fact, Mary Koss was the FIRST feminist to study male rape victims in Chile. Don’t listen to that fuckwit.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, I had a sneaking suspicion that what he said about Koss wasn’t “entirely true”…

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Nope. In fact, I read her entire paper on Chile and what I believe he’s quoting was her frustration b/c she used a rape inventory that was designed for women and then said she needed to develop a measure for men. Not only that but she had a hard time getting the men to open up to her because it’s such a conservative culture.

          • Erik Miles

            What’s really sad if that even if what Danny said did happen to be true, it still wouldn’t have any bearing what the FBI defines as Rape.

            So really…it’d be rather pointless on Danny’s part.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Can bring out many more calling feminism out for its lies.

            “Sexual assault on campus is a serious problem—but, “rape culture” is not
            the answer. The Factual Feminist compares this panic to another
            nationwide hysteria based on faulty statistics, and how we can avoid
            making the same mistakes.”
            http://youtu.be/FKgrYVtYSCk

          • Erik Miles

            Not really one to stay on topic, are ya bucko?
            I thought we were talking about what the FBI thought the legal definition of rape was, and how apparently you thought the CDC had some bearing what that was (again, despite evidence to the contrary)

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You asked for a different source bucko

          • Erik Miles

            Well, that’s fine if that’s what she thinks, but what does Christina Hoff Sommers have to do with how the FBI defines the criminal definition of Rape?

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            This is what i call the MRA skipping record. Once they’re defeated on one point their hamster needle skips over the vinyl in their head and tada! we get a new, unrelated bs story.

          • Erik Miles

            Either that, or they present with more theories to you.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Joy misquoting and misnaming things is something the MHRM has come to expect from you.
            Its been your one trick dog and pony show since what 2008 or so?

            BTW I’ve been waiting for over a year now for that vid you promised which would destroy me.
            What’s a matter your mouth write a cheque your arse can’t cover?

          • Erik Miles

            Well, you haven’t really done a good job of proving any of your points so far.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You seem to have been ambushed Danny.

          • rebecca

            The MRA is just another rebranding of conspiracy theorists. They are the same people who believe that airplanes dust chemicals and the government wants to put them in concentration camps.

            Their form of arguing, if you can call it that, is the EXACT same circular logic that skeptics use, which is no logic. When you debunk their ludicrous points, they resort to the exact same defenses like Dannyboy does by accusations, saying that you are a Kool-Aid drinker, you are lying, misquoting, etc.
            They all have the same response, somebody is out to get them.
            People who buy into these things, have a low sense of self worth, low self esteem, and feel powerless. Hence the MRA, It is putting the blame of their powerlessness on women. They suffer a severe case of confirmation bias. Hence your skipping record analogy. Instead of processing the factual information they have received, they will reject it and look only for evidence that supports their claim, which is why they will brush over your information and present new and completely unrelated information.
            The term that can be applied to the skipping record is known in psychology circles as the backfire effect: the more factual information your present to them, the more entrenched they become in their beliefs and the more factual they think their false evidence is.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Hi Erik,
            Might as well say hi. Did you hear Stefan Molyneux’s presentation at the conference? If you did then you’ll love this. He pretended to be a woman on his own YT comment section and talked about how ‘she’ had all this power b/c ‘she’s cute’ and how ‘she’ shouldn’t take advantage of it. ‘She’ praised himself on the greatness of his work. Hahaha! http://i.imgur.com/tk6yyvN.jpg

          • Erik Miles

            So Stefan thinks he’s an “attractive young woman”, huh? XD
            I guess he’s less of a “Liberation Revolutionary”, and more of a…
            …”Buffalo Bill”

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            MRA’s sometimes make fake accounts and pretend to be women. Somehow they think it makes them more legitimate, which is so ironic.

          • Erik Miles

            To me, it’s actually kinda pathetic that he has to create his own “woman” in order to make his point seem more valid.

          • Auntie Alias

            LOL

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            I can hear him typing furiously

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Now, now diana no need to revert to your first go to response of name calling.
            You and I both know the level of your dishonesty.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Diana Boston, akaJoy, and auntie alias a disgruntled woman who contributing nothing useful other than misandry and androphobia against those men and women who are voicing concerns about men’s and boy’s issues.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            There needs to be a clear definition of rape as it pertains to males.

          • Erik Miles

            It does. Again, you’re assuming the victim can’t be the penetrator. The definition only states that penetration has to occur. It never states the victim has to be the one being penetrated.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            How could the penetrator be the victim? It takes an act by the penetrator to penetrate. Only the male can do that. The female has nothing to penetrate with. She can force herself on the male, which would be to envelop his penis by what ever orifice she chooses.

          • lady_black

            No it does NOT require an action by the penetrator for penetration to occur. The action can be caused by the person being penetrated.

          • Erik Miles

            Because penetration is simply the act in itself. The penetrator doesn’t have to be rapist; the woman still force the male to penetrate her against his will.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Erik, learn some basic physics, then come and engage in conversation about rape and the act of copulation. Only the male has a sex organ that is capable of penetrating. Are you suggesting that a female can penetrate herself by moving a male along with his erect penis to cause that penis to enter her vagina? This I would like to see done by any female.

            If there is no penetrator there is no penetration. The female can not be the penetrator for she has nothing to penetrate with.

          • Erik Miles

            “Penetration: Noun: ‘the action or process of making a way through or into something.”

            And so say I have a pencil standing vertically atop a table with the sharp end up. If I were, to say, slam my hand purposefully on top of the pencil, than the tip would penetrate into my hand, correct? So with our scenario, whose fault is it that I was injured? Mine, or the pencil’s?

            “Are you suggesting that a female can penetrate herself by moving a male along with his erect penis to cause that penis to enter her vagina?”

            …Yeah, it’s called the woman slamming her behind or crotch onto the man’s penis. Or, if you’re familiar with certain sexual maneuvers, the woman can also be on top of the man (i.e. “Cowgirl Style”, reverse or otherwise)

          • lady_black

            Hey dummy. If you step on a nail, it will penetrate your foot. Who’s action caused that? You or the nail?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hey witty one, are you suggesting when you have vaginal intercourse you fall on a penis and that is it? No further actin needed. Got it. That sure sounds simple, short and not much enjoyable.

            I have work to do to ensure that moronic thinking like yours is the thing of the past.

          • lady_black

            I don’t know about “falling” but I’m sure you’re aware that women can mount men and guide the penis inside her, and move around while he just lays there and enjoys. That’s penetration, big boy.

          • lady_black

            Citation needed for forcing a male body to penetrate a female body isn’t recorded as rape. I believe you to be in error.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra
          • lady_black

            You want me to wade through a 124 page treatise on domestic violence and sexual abuse? No. Crime reporting statistics, NOW, or be known as a liar. Around here, we had some female teachers charged with RAPE for having sex with students.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I did, and found the heading.
            Perhaps this is why you keep getting things wrong, your lack of diligence.
            You asked for the evidence it was presented and you willfully turned your nose up at it.

          • lady_black

            So you have no crime statistics showing that the rape of men is reported as something other than rape. I thought so.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            The crimes have been reported lady.
            Why are you blaming those victims?

          • lady_black

            What PART of “prove the crimes were reported as something other than rape” don’t you understand?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            “lady_black DannyboyCdnMRA •2 hours ago
            So you have no crime statistics showing that the rape of men is reported as something other than rape. I thought so.”
            Confusing your own question now?
            Is this some new feminist tactic, getting confused on your own questions?

          • lady_black

            Wording the same question two different ways doesn’t make the question different. That’s the thing about language. You have SO many ways of communicating the same idea. Now, do you, or do you NOT have any evidence that rape of men is reported as something OTHER than rape? And “Uh, duh, the crimes were reported, lady.” is not evidence that they were reported as a different crime than rape!

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            lol it truly is comical when feminists are caught for their shenanigans like moving goal posts.
            Thanks for playing lady, keep up the good work helping non-feminists.

          • lady_black

            Um, wording the same question in slightly different language is not “goalpost-shifting”. I asked you TWICE for proof that rape of men is reported as a crime other than rape, and you have provided nothing that backs up your statement. What you did provide doesn’t say what you thought it said. Therefore, you have nothing.

          • fiona64

            His own source gives the lie to his words. On page 24 of the PDF:

            Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.

            Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

            Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object.

            Being made to penetrate someone else includes times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.

            Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female’s vagina or anus.

            Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Thanks for your help.
            your 4th paragraph;
            “being made to penetrate” aka forced penetration which should be defined as rape but is not.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, actually, it is: see that first paragraph:? The last sentence reads (emphasis added) Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.

            The later paragraphs elaborate on those points.

            So, m’dear, you are hoist with your own petard. Again.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Perhaps you can explain table 2.1 and 2.2 Forced to penetrate is not under the rape heading.
            It is classified under the heading of “other sexual violence”

          • lady_black

            Trouble with reading comprehension? That is defined as rape.

          • Erik Miles

            Hate to remind you of this, but the CDC doesn’t mean anything when it comes to the matters of the Department of Justice. Now if you happened upon something of the UCR, then that’d be an entirely different story, but until that miraculously happens, quotes from the CDC don’t mean anything.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            My you are a lazy reader aren’t you.
            Lady asked for an example it was provided.
            There was no specification of excluding one source or another.

          • Erik Miles

            Yeah, and you’re still using the CDC as though they’re somehow the ones that actually report crimes to the Department of Justice or the FBI…which they don’t, at least not in the way you’re suggesting.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Then why do feminists keep on using cdc data to spew their ~ 1 in 4 numbers?
            Remember these studies are used by feminists and now that they are being used against them they aint liking it so much.
            Guess its a little too equal for them.

          • Erik Miles

            The two groups are often confused for one another when it comes to this sort of thing. It’s a common misconception.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            No misconception feminist spew their ~1 in 4 claim endlessly.

          • lady_black

            Because the incidence of a crime, and the reporting of crime are two different things. Stupid is not a good look for you. Your kid takes a $20 bill out of your wallet, or takes your car for a joyride, and you decide to handle it at home and not call the police. Does that mean a theft did *not* occur?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            “lady_black DannyboyCdnMra
            •4 hours ago
            Citation needed for forcing a male body to penetrate a female body isn’t recorded as rape. I believe you to be in error.”
            The citation was provided in the cdc report. Your friend fiona even pointed it out for you.

            Did you say something about stupid without remembering your very own comment?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No it is not the same and in law assumptions don’t work.

          • Erik Miles

            Again, you’re assuming that the penetrator can’t also be the victim. Nowhere in the definition does it say that the rapist has to be the penetrator.

          • lady_black

            It is exactly the same thing. No matter which way you slice it, it’s forced penetration.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No it is not. How does a woman penetrate a penis? She could envelop it, but not penetrate it.

          • lady_black

            She is penetrating her orifice WITH his penis. By your definition, putting underwear on someone is “rape.”

          • Unicorn Farm

            I don’t understand what is hard about this concept?! Why can’t they understand??? How do they even benefit by arguing that the definition should include “envelopment”?

          • lady_black

            Because unwanted penetration is a crime, and unwanted “envelopment” is not.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Whether the victim is being penetrated or the victim is being forced to penetrate, it’s still forced penetration and rape.

          • fiona64

            He’s playing silly semantic games … and he knows it.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Males are raped more than females. Why were the rights to protection against male rape be left out of the context of rape?

          • fiona64

            Males are raped more than females.

            Citation needed.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Oh, I just sucked that information out of my thumb. Why is it that people are incredulously lazy. Go do your own research, but you are to damn lazy. Here is a hint, false rape society. You can copy and paste that right into google.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I just sucked that information out of my thumb. Why is it that
            people are incredulously lazy. Go do your own research, but you are to
            damn lazy.

            You made the affirmative assertion; the onus is on YOU to back it up. It’s not my fault that you’re making shit up; it’s yours. But, just for fun, I did look it up — and you’re a goddamned liar. Not that I’m surprised.

            https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

            Just a little mathematical hint for you: 1/6 women will be raped/sexually assaulted during her lifetime. 1/33 men? That is a *smaller* number. I do not deny that it happens, nor have I.

            However, you made the 100 percent INCORRECT assertion that males are raped more than female. So yes, I do think you sucked that information out of your thumb … or pulled it from some other orifice.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks for posting that. I still can’t figure out how to post a link using my cell phone.

          • fiona64

            My pleasure. I can’t do it from the phone or tablet, either.

          • expect_resistance

            That is total bullshit.

        • lady_black

          What is forced envelopment?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I can’t figure out what that could possibly be.

          • fiona64

            I admit, I’m trying to figure that out as well. Maybe it means someone giving a blowjob against the male’s will? I don’t know.

          • lady_black

            Sounds pretty much like “penetration” to me.

          • fiona64

            Me too, to be honest … so I’m not sure what their insistence on this “envelopment’ business is.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I’m confused on feminism’s insistence on penetrative acts defining rape and or sex.
            Must be its remedial myopic theories.
            Keep defending them ladies.

          • fiona64

            So, you can’t explain what this “envelopment” business is, either? That’s about what I thought.

          • lady_black

            That’s because it’s nonsense. He’s picking gnat shit out of pepper.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I think you need to go back to sex-ed classes fiona.
            : to enclose or enfold completely with or as if with a covering
            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/envelop
            A female’s sexual organs envelope the male’s penis and if done via force should be rape. The converse is also true in heterosexual pairings.
            Maybe you could watch some National Geographic videos for some visual aids fiona. The written word seems to be a hurdle you can quite get over.
            Add this lack of understanding of the mechanics of sex to your fixation on boys and I am motivated me re-iterate my suggestion you seek professional help.

          • lady_black

            That’s penetration, because an orifice is being penetrated.

          • fiona64

            It’s *still* penetration, Danny. Just because you don’t like the word doesn’t change reality.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            fiona just because your in love with penetration doesn’t make that the only definition of sex.
            And as I’ve stated before forced sex is rape.
            Regardless if its penetration or envelopment.
            Feel free to carry on with your cretinous views.

          • fiona64

            Words have meanings, Danny. I’m sorry that you aren’t bright enough to know that. Here in the US, I am given to understand that people like you, with reading comprehension problems, are helped by a game called “Hooked on Phonics.” You may wish to look into that.

          • lady_black

            Yes, I’m sorry, but penetration really is the only definition of sexual intercourse. “Outercourse” doesn’t count as rape. EVER.

          • lady_black

            Well let me attempt to explain this. If I stick my finger (or a pencil) up your rectum without consent, that’s penetration. Thus rape. If you grab my hand and force my finger up your anus, that doesn’t make the act “envelopment.” It’s still sexual penetration, only this time, I was the victim. You’re picking gnat shit out of pepper. Legally speaking, any unwanted touching is a battery. If it’s sexual unwanted touching, it’s a sexual battery, and if it involves unwanted “penetration” (meaning unwanted by the penetrator or the one being penetrated,) it’s rape. The rapist is the one using aggression.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            See reply to fiona and take the last suggestion to heart please.

          • lady_black

            Look, Dannyboy, no matter who is the aggressor, penetration is still happening, By your stupid definition, I could be charged with “rape” for catheterizing a male patient because I need to “envelop” his penis in my hand to pass the catheter. The hand is not an orifice. Neither is the penis. For something to be “rape” an orifice must be involved (usually the mouth, vagina or rectum) and when speaking of an orifice, it’s penetration… not “envelopment.” You want to make a hand job rape. But that will never happen because there is no orifice involved. The penetration is rape if it’s unwanted by either party. PERIOD. No need for a separate term for men.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Sorry to shatter your myopic view lady,
            From a male’s point of view its envelopment.
            I know having an equal say on what constitutes a sex crime is something feminists are desperate to stop from happening, but its happening none the less.

          • lady_black

            Try reading for comprehension, dufus. If you diaper a male or female body, that’s envelopment. It’s NOT A CRIME. It’s too loose, too weasely, and doesn’t really address what rape is. By your definition, if I dress any male (or female), I’m guilty of “rape” because I have enveloped their genitals in their underwear.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Idk do you normally consider diapering a child a sex act lady?
            If so seek professional help ad turn yourself into the proper authorities.
            I also didn’t realize dressing someone was a sex act.
            You mentioned in a previous comment how you in your job might have to catheter someone, I’m beginning to wonder if you know the proper body part to do this procedure on.
            Thanks for your anger and help. We grow from it.

          • lady_black

            No I do NOT consider diapering a child to be a sex act, but it IS envelopment of the child’s genitals. That’s my entire point. A sex act (legally speaking) involves penetration. If a man covers a woman’s breast with his hand, that may or may not be a sexual assault, but it’s never “rape” because no orifice has been penetrated. Your non-sequitur ad hominem attack notwithstanding, the term “envelopment” is extremely broad, and doesn’t constitute rape. Penetration must be involved.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Actually the clothing a child was the non-sequitur but thanks for trying to project your mistakes onto a man. How so very feminist of you.
            Your mention of breasts got me thinking. I’m sure you are familiar with the sex act of breast sex.
            No penetration simply envelopment of a females breast tissue around a males penis with the obvious sex motions.
            A form of sex which does not involve penetration.
            If done by force this should be classified as rape, however your feminism demands envelopment not be included in the definition of rape mandates it not be properly prosecuted in a court of competent jurisdiction.
            I guess those feminists who helped construct the new FBI definition of rape didn’t fail victims at all.
            Once again thanks for your help.

          • lady_black

            Titty sex is not “rape” either. It’s masturbation.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Nice of you to toss those victims of forced sex (rape) under the bus when it doesn’t fit your ideology.
            Feminism is misogyny as you just proved.

          • lady_black

            Now just wait a damn minute. I didn’t say it wasn’t a crime to do that against someone’s will! I said it isn’t intercourse and it isn’t rape. It would be a sexual battery if done against someone’s will.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            “lady_black

            DannyboyCdnMra

            22 minutes ago

            Titty sex is not “rape” either. It’s masturbation.”
            No mention of it being a crime by you.
            I know now that your true feelings are exposed you are back peddling to cover your cretinous views and misogyny towards rape victims.
            I’ve seen it so many times before from feminists once their deplorable behavior is exposed.

          • Erik Miles

            Actually, let’s just look at the definition of rape again, shall we?

            “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

            Now, in the case of a penis being inserted into woman’s cleavage, unless the person somehow is able to stick their penis into the nipple duct of the woman, it’s not considered an orifice. However, the woman could be guilty of Sexual Assault or Sexual Battery, which are serious crimes in and of themselves, but they’re not considered Rape.

          • lady_black

            Because “titty sex” is NOT a crime, and it is NOT intercourse. Doing it without consent is a crime. But regardless of whether a man forces this act, or a woman forces this act, it’s NEVER RAPE. It should really hurt to be as dumb as you are.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Feminists are so cute when they resort to name calling and personal attacks.
            That’s when you know you’ve got them scrambling.
            So a man forces oral sex on a woman. His lips envelope her sex organs, (clitoris labia etc) that is not rape according to lady here.
            Who says feminists don’t hate rape victims?

          • lady_black

            Let me REALLY dumb this down for you. Breasts = the outside of a person’s body. Penis = the outside of someone’s body. Rubbing of the outside of someone’s body with the outside of someone else’s body is never RAPE. If done without consent, it’s a sexual battery. If done with consent, it’s masturbation.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            And there you have it, inherent sexism engaged in by a feminist, if your sex organs are external and they are used by force without your consent its not rape because the penis is external.
            Thanks for your help lady, this is why we come to comment sections to catch and expose the inherent bigotry and rigid gender roles in feminism.

          • fiona64

            He’s spent a lot of time accusing women here of pedophilia. I think he’s projecting, myself, but that’s strictly speculation on my part.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            fiona those mentions of mine are direct replies to your fixation with young males.
            And again I urge you to seek professional help for that fixation.

          • fiona64

            The only one who keeps mentioning young boys is you. Why is that, Danny?

            You keep digging that hole though, sweetie. Pretty soon, you’ll reach rock-bottom and have to drill.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            ahh your such a child thinking insulting shaming language will work on me cupcake.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “From a male’s point of view its envelopment. ”
            But from a statutory point of view the term forced penetration covers envelopment, as you mean it. The statutory text is what matters for enforcement.

          • lady_black

            Exactly. The genitals of either sex can be completely covered (enveloped) by any number of things (underwear, for example) and it’s not “rape.”

          • fiona64

            He’s a whackadoodle, full stop.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            meh fiona haven’t you got some therapy to attend to?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Oh ok so since envelopment doesn’t count then fine when a guy envelopes a woman’s sex organ through force in his mouth it isn’t rape despite the fact that his tongue could be penetrating her.
            As long as the lips are enveloping its not rape right girls?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            If it makes little difference about the terms then would you be fine with the definition only including the term envelopment, because as you argue both terms are pretty much the same.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Perhaps. It would be weird, because it’s not how we normally discuss rape, but if it meant “forcing the vagina, mouth, or rectum to envelop a penis, finger or object” then yes, I suppose it would be the same.
            So why are you so attached to the term envelopment?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            I am ‘obsessed’ as you put it, with equal protection for all. Not one sex or the other. Envelopment is how a male typically experiences sex.

            And personally I would like the definition of rape be reduced to forced sex. No penetration, no envelopment, the only qualifier being forced.

            However feminism appears to be determined to limit its definition to a penetrative act.There fore the male complimentary term must be included or the male exclusionary term removed.
            Again IMHO forced sex should be the only qualifier in regards to rape.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “However feminism appears to be determined to limit its definition to a penetrative act”

            No. A penetrative act WITHOUT CONSENT. Both sexes ARE protected under this definition of rape.

            You can’t just leave out the consent aspect, or else all sex is rape. You KNOW that feminists are not trying to legally define all sex as rape.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Did you miss the word “forced”.
            When someone is forced there is a lack of consent.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Yes, when someone is forced there is a lack of consent. But sometimes sex can lack consent, and so it is rape, but the rape isn’t “forced.”
            Do you know about rectangles and squares? They are shapes. Every square is a rectangle (plane with four sides and four right angles), but not every rectangle is a square (plane with four equidistant sides and four right angles). Every rape involves a lack of consent, but not every rape involves force. Those rapes that involve force also involve a lack of consent. See? In this case, “forcible rape” is the square within world of rape/rectangles.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            No wonder you feminists are confused about sex you’ve just gone back and forth agreeing with the basic principle if there wasn’t consent it was forced.
            Sorry IDK where you went to school but every square is not a rectangle. Perhaps this is why feminists like you are so confused about sex.

          • Shan

            “you’ve just gone back and forth agreeing with the basic principle if there wasn’t consent it was forced.”

            I rather think she was jut pointing out the difference between the inability to say yes or no to sex and the actual saying no to sex but being physically forced to do it anyway. Unicorn Farm will correct me if I’m wrong.

            “every square is not a rectangle”

            Yes, they are. 4-sided polygons with all internal angles being right angles are called rectangles. Squares are just rectangles with equilateral sides. Similarly, 3-sided polygons are all called triangles. But depending on the internal angles of the triangle, some are called equilateral, isosceles, acute or obtuse.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            If someone makes the choice for you, without your consent, it is forced. Conscious or unconscious makes little difference.
            What you are doing is showing the similar characteristics of different shapes. (90 degree angles etc). That doesn’t make them all the same.

          • Shan

            “If someone makes the choice for you, without your consent, it is forced.”

            Of course. But words have meanings, especially in legal terms.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So you agree which makes Unicorn’s position redundant.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Every square is not also a rectangle? Wow. Citation desperately needed. The first sentence in this post makes zero sense. You don’t seem to understand what I wrote at all. Maybe read it again?

          • fiona64

            I would like the definition of rape be reduced to forced sex.

            Look everyone, it’s Todd Akin, or maybe Rand Paul!
            http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/19/712251/how-todd-akin-and-paul-ryan-partnered-to-redefine-rape/

            I am very much reminded of a fellow over at LJF who informed us that there is such a thing as “consensual statutory rape.” Mind-boggling.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            So you don’t want forced sex to be considered rape.
            Nice move fiona.

          • Unicorn Farm

            you MORON. You know she was saying that she doesn’t want the definition of rape to be LIMITED to “forced sex.” Good god, you’ve got to be this stupid on purpose.

          • fiona64

            Quelle surprise, another idiotic strawman from you. At no point did I say that … of which you are fully aware. The definition of rape should not be *reduced* to forcible sex.

            I hope you’re being deliberately obtuse, because I hate to think you’re really that stupid.

          • lady_black

            Now you’re REALLY picking gnat shit out of pepper. What exactly is “forced sex?” To be rape, it has to be intercourse (penetration) oral, anal or vaginal. Anything less than that is sexual battery.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Poor lady so stuck in her beliefs regarding sex always being penetrative.
            And she is right from a woman’s pov.
            But unfortunately her feminist lens prevents her from seeing it from a male perspective, which is envelopment. One partner penetrates, the other envelopes. Feminist just can’t seem to get past the penetrate part.
            So either be inclusive as the feminist mantra decrees or admit feminism is exclusive and we can move on from there.

          • lady_black

            BECAUSE, to be rape, the INSIDE of someone’s body must be involved. That’s called penetration. Rubbing your Johnson on someone’s butt is not “rape.”

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Lady we get its all about sex from a woman’s point of view. Screw how a man experiences it,

            ‘Feminists are inclusive and we demand you stop trying to include how you, as a man, experience sex.’
            About right Lady?

          • Unicorn Farm

            What do you have to lose if rape is defined as penetration without consent rather than envelopment without consent.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I keep coming back to envelopes–maybe he’s whining about men having to wear condoms? I don’t know. I think I need more coffee.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/22378096-418/man-says-he-was-forced-at-gunpoint-to-have-sex-with-woman-prosecutors.html#.U72O2LHCeGw

            http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/18373

            Address your ignorance.. there are a lot… infact on collge campuses men while drunk get raped, it happend with my friend. And it could have happened with me untill one of my friend forced me out of the situation.

          • RiseOfDivergents
          • RiseOfDivergents
          • RiseOfDivergents
          • lady_black

            Yeah, that’s rape. Not “forced envelopment.” Also armed robbery.

      • Razedbywolvs

        I stand corrected.

  • Daniel

    You are proud to have helped the FBI formulate a definition of rape that specifically excludes violations of a man’s body? Shame on you.

    • Erik Miles

      Actually, it doesn’t, at least not when you look at the definition literally.
      http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html

      For instance, it never states the rapist has to be the penetrator. It definition just states that rape is, “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” In order for it to be considered rape, forced penetration just has to occur. It never says that the victim and the penetrator can’t be the same person.

  • expect_resistance

    Agree. Thanks for the link.

  • wgone

    And you call this Reality Check? – what a utter load of Rubbish – what does Eliot Rodger have to do with mens rights??? Are you stupid? And on the subject of Rape – Rape is a JOKE. Rape is sexist – its purely defined from a womans advantage. Its not a genuine ‘crime’ the way its defined. Current definitions are based on stereo types. Today whats making it worse is that feminism wants to broaden rape to include anything that a woman feel is rape, while completely ignoring the rape of men and boys. If i had to define it – it
    would be “sexual activity with a non consenting person”. NO GENDER. Rape cannot be determined the following day – it can be reported the following day though. The current discussion about rape and genital mutilation prove that feminism is NOT about equality but purely getting the best possible advantage for women even at the cost of everyone else. I
    no longer consider rape to be a serious crime purely from this perspective – i.e. UNTIL its properly defined in a non sexist manner and I shall be commenting as such in all the regular places where i comment until this changes. Rape is a JOKE. #RapeIsAJoke

    • Erik Miles

      Actually, now that you mention it, the Department of Justice did change to the definition of Rape to be more gender inclusive.
      http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/January/12-ag-018.html

      • crydiego

        “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

        • Junky

          envelopment?
          or is all rape viewed thru a feminine lens?(penetrative)

          • Shan

            That’s a decidedly masculine lens. The almighty penis is presumed to be the only agent in the sex act. It’s neither physiologically nor psychologically correct, however, to presume that an erection indicates willingness to engage in it.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Does an erect clitoris indicate a willingness to engage in it? Neither an erect penis, an erect clitoris nor a wet vagina is an indication of willingness to copulate by the female or the male. It is merely an indication of arousal and conceivable a physical attraction.

          • lady_black

            Exactly. But who cares?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That’t the problem.

          • lady_black

            I don’t see it as a problem, and I don’t know why you would, either. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone was raped. Arousal is ONLY a physiological reaction. It’s not consent. Just like a turn signal doesn’t mean someone is going to turn.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hahahahaha……. Ok you got me to laugh my head off. A turn signal in the indecisive hands of a woman can be most confusing, and even dangerous to other drivers.

          • lady_black

            A turn signal in anyone’s hands is dangerous to any driver who doesn’t realize that a turn signal means an electrical connection to a series of blinking lights has been made, and that’s ALL it means. I’ve seen people have their turn signal on for miles without realizing it. If you cause an accident by assuming someone is going to turn, merely because a light is flashing… well… the accident will be the treat of your insurance company. Cars have turn signals to alert other drivers of an intention to turn. I assume they are going to turn when they start turning, and not one second before that. My son got into an accident that way. If you want to denigrate my driving skills, you should know I’ve had one accident in 30 years, and that was the fault of the other driver who blew a stop sign. My record is clean as a whistle.

          • Shan

            We’re not disagreeing.

          • lady_black

            Penetration is still happening. There is no such thing as “envelopment” regarding sexual acts. A woman (or man) “enveloping” your dick with her/his hand has not “raped” you. It is a sexual assault if unwanted. But it isn’t rape, because no orifice is involved.

          • Junky

            only orifice penetration is exactly why there is a problem,, when a woman puts her vag *on* a man is she penetrating him?

            so it follows that if its rape to use any object(not a penis) for a sex act on a woman and its still called rape then why shouldnt anything that simulates envelopment be considered rape also…

          • lady_black

            It doesn’t work that way. You are not allowed to use a penis to penetrate yourself without consent. You don’t get to make a hand job, or encircling a penis with breasts “rape” because it isn’t. It may be a sexual battery.

          • Junky

            how odd that a woman who probably views rape with objects as rape would talk this way instead of standing up for their equal when it comes to rape of any kind..
            oh wait you showed your hate already in this thread…

          • lady_black

            Is there something wrong with you? Rape with an object has to involve penetration. Putting the outside of your body on the outside of someone else’s body is not “rape.” Putting an object on the outside of someone else’s body is not “rape” either. Should a man be charged with “rape” for grinding his penis on a woman’s body? As disgusting as that is, it isn’t “rape” and I don’t think that sort of thing ought to be charged as rape. It’s hardly the same thing as having an object inserted into your body.

          • Junky

            when they make a sex toy for a man to simulate sex do they make it go around the outside of the penis ?
            end of story…

          • Unicorn Farm

            “only orifice penetration is exactly why there is a problem,, when a woman puts her vag *on* a man is she penetrating him”

            No. If a man puts his penis ON me, like, rests it on my leg without my consent, he has not raped me. He has sexually battered me. But not rape.

            If a woman puts her vagina on your leg, but does not penetrate herself with it, she does not rape you, she sexually batters you. If she penetrates herself with it without your consent, she has raped you.

        • Erik Miles

          E’yup, that’s the definition of Rape alright.
          But again, much like other fellows on this board, you’re probably assuming that the penetrator and the victim can’t be the same person. The definition only states that unwanted penetration has to occur. It never explicitly states that the victim has to be the one being penetrated.

          • crydiego

            But again, people want to fight.
            I actually think it’s a pretty good definition within limits. It does limit rape to some form of penetration. That would mean that any sexual assault without penetration would be a lesser crime than rape, or at least different.
            The problem with rape conviction has never really been the federal definition. Each state has it’s own definitions and laws and the Justice department has to deal with a republic.
            I do believe the law is weak and would allow many rapist to get a lesser charge or to be acquitted completely, no law is perfect.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, you do actually bring up a good point that in some rare cases, certain states often has a different definition of what “rape” is. But, luckily, now that the Department of Justice has put the hammer down on the matter, it should unify the definition to a degree.

          • crydiego

            Just like Marijuana? America is a republic and I hope it stays that way.
            Still, the problem with rape is proving none consent and proving penetration. This is where the defense will go and the state has the burden of proof. If the rapist is a man, DNA can many times provide the penetration proof if the victim is male or female, but consent is still a big hurdle. The state does have implied guilt on their side such as with the Duke case but first you have to charge someone who was there.
            If the rapist is a women you had better have video and witnesses to even prove sexual assault and there is no implied guilt on your side. A female rapist might never go to trail, or get a plea.
            The justice department does not run our state court systems.

          • Erik Miles

            When a republic does do what it’s suppose to do, then yeah, it can work out just fine. But I do personally feel that certain things, like the definition of Rape or the legalization Marijuana, do need to be an agreed upon thing across the board…but, as you pointed out, getting every single state to agree on these things is…tricky, and it is one of the hurdles that you’ll eventually come across when dealing with a republic.

          • crydiego

            There is the amendment process.

          • Erik Miles

            True, there is that.

    • mushkabby100

      Wow
      I can’t even believe how stupid you are
      Have you read anything, ever? Like this aryvle even?

  • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

    How cute
    Is this you Villet?

  • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

    I’m baaaaack. Did I miss many male tears?

    • expect_resistance

      I’m going to sleep early morning tomorrow. Keep up the good fight. Yours in solidarity. :)

    • Erik Miles

      Only that apparently the CDC somehow has influence over the what legal definition of rape is…somehow…

    • A. T.

      You missed some violent threats, obsession with lady parts and being told to f-off. Those though might have been old posts.

      • OldandNavy

        Sounds exciting.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      Some male feminists threw a temper tantrum and left not much else.
      Feel free to go collect their tears.

      • Erik Miles

        Oh, but I’m still here.
        By the way, how’s the proof coming along about how Koss apparently influences the inner workings of the FBI coming along?

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          See reply
          Are you the only male feminist?

          • BelligerentBruncher
          • Erik Miles

            Nope. You’ll find that there are a lot of us, and we’re steadily growing.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Really?
            My personal experience, and this spans 3 years of engaging crowds of about 100k at a local street-festival indicates different.
            The first year there was feminist violence and i was attacked.
            The second year no violence and the crowds were welcoming.
            The third year people were recognizing the movement and seeking me out to offer thanks.
            This year so far things look even more promising as I plan to launch the biggest add campaign yet. The reason being I’m getting more and more people asking me how they can get involved and how they can help.
            And then there is this project of Elle magazine trying desperately to re-brand feminism as it isn’t being welcomed by society so much anymore.
            Failed feminist campaigns like ban bossy are openly laughed at in the local coffee shops and by society in general.
            But yes your claim male feminist ranks are growing seems legit.
            Surrrrre

          • Erik Miles

            Right, because as everyone knows, male supporters of feminism totally didn’t exist in the first and second wave of the movement… /s

            That’s a dandy little anecdote you have there, but if we’re excepting anecdotes as facts, then I got one for you. I also happen to go to plenty of local street fairs myself. As you imagine, there were occasions where some feminist groups appeared. I’ve engaged them, told them about my stance as a male feminist, and they were welcoming of the idea.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            first part;
            Did I say that?
            If so lets see the proof.

            second part;
            the term you are looking for is accepting, not excepting.
            Did I say feminists don’t want males in their movement? Jumping to conclusions again I see.
            However the point you missed is how the reception of non-feminists by my local has grown. Which is indicative of feminist ranks shrinking.
            And you failed to address the Elle mag and ban bossy issues.
            But do carry on you are an amusing distraction.

          • Erik Miles

            Much like how you jump the conclusion that the male feminists somehow aren’t growing in number…because anecdotes.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            How many pieces of evidence do you want?

            I’ll point out this vid is old like at least 2 years old from 2012. I did put it up late though.

            http://youtu.be/dkfiE5tq2r4

          • Erik Miles

            So…what are these interviews suppose to prove?

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Well considering how you keep on ignoring evidence which corroborates the positions I hold, at the end of the day I’d say what it all proves best is your ideological blindness.

          • Erik Miles

            I wouldn’t talk to me about “ideological blindness”, when the only evidence you’ve provided seems to be either personal anecdotes or articles from AVfM (because that’s no biased in the least…/s).

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            The cdc is AVFM?
            Hoff-Sommers is AVFM?
            Right I’ll leave you to your lies and disingenuous claims.
            Reply if you want but the evidence of how you operate is all over this comment section.

          • Erik Miles

            Actually, the CDC and Hoff-Sommers is considered anecdotal. I assumed you would’ve known that…but perhaps I was overestimating you a bit.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Hoff-Sommer citing studies is anecdotal?
            Ok then we can toss all of the studies that feminists use out as well.
            Erik says they are anecdotal.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, yeah, when you’ve yet to actually connect the evidence to the event, it’s considered an isolated incident, which, by definition is considered anecdotal.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            The link was established, you just chose to remain willfully ignorant.
            Now move the goal post around again.

          • Erik Miles

            Yeah, again, you presented a theory of this supposed “Link”. What I haven’t seen from you is any documentation from the UCR or the FBI that actually confirms. Because as far I can tell, neither of them have mentioned any of these authors you’ve mentioned.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You also can’t provide evidence to the contrary, while I have provided corroborating evidence for my position.
            Carry on

    • A. T.

      The best argument as to how they are against equality as their readers. I’m not sure I’ve thought about my ladyparts as much as they do. Or, apparently what positions women need to be in. Cute!

      • OldandNavy

        Heh. I can promise that they hadn’t occurred, honestly.

        I don’t generally attribute girlie bits to type print.

        • A. T.

          No, that’s good! I prefer that. Thank you!

      • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

        There is so much hilarity when you talk to an MRA. They’re like tops. You just set em in motion and they spin and spin. They dig their own holes. It’s easy. You just set em in motion, watch em spin and dig then you tip them into the holes they made. MRA-tippin is much more fun than cow tippin.

        • A. T.

          I’ve met nice, reasonable MRAs who want to help men and it’s fantastic. And then there’s others where it is like the top spinning and I’m: o_O

          • Erik Miles

            I guess Moderate MRA’s are kinda like Moderate Republicans in that way.
            “People claim they exist, but good luck trying to find one”

          • Auntie Alias

            I’ve never encountered one. A few talk a good game initially but once they get going, it all falls apart.

          • A. T.

            I’m hoping for the best? ._.

          • Auntie Alias

            I admire your optimism.

    • OldandNavy

      Not so you would notice.

  • Attila_L_Vinczer

    This is yet one more example of the bias against boys and men and the reason why I am involved in advocating about issues concerning men and boys. Fourteen year old babysitter engages in lewd acts with 8 year old boy and not HER but the boy is charged!

    Where is the charge against the 14 year old adolescent girl engaged in paedophilia with a prepubescent 8 year old boy? Will this female be on the sex registry list?

    http://www.canadiancrc.com/newspaper_articles/CBS_8_year_old_boy_sexual_conduct_sitter.aspx

    • rebecca

      Exactly where is the bias towards males in this article?

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Rebecca, it is because of your type of mindset, that MRAs work to ensure little boys are not sexually abused.

        You must be blind, deaf and void of any intellect to not see that the the 8 year old boy was charged and not the 14 year old girl. She is 75% older than he is. He gets charged, she gets a free pass for engaging sexually with a prepubescent boy. That is known as paedophilia.

        How would you feel if a 14 year old boy got an 8 year old girl to touch his or caress his nipples and the 8 year old girl is charged with a lewd act, because she encouraged it.

        • Auntie Alias

          “MRAs work to ensure little boys are not sexually abused.”

          But they have no compunctions about posting a video of a boy being sexually abused on a bus. That’s exploitation.

    • Erik Miles

      And, as the article states, the charges were quickly dropped afterwards.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        You ignore the more important part where the 8 year old boy should NEVER have been charged! Do you realize, that charge remains on his police record for life???

        • lady_black

          No it does not. Dropped charges are not part of a person’s criminal record. It is an admission that a mistake was made. Kind of like when the police arrest the wrong person, and someone later credibly confesses to the crime, or new information comes to light. The charges are dropped.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            My expertise is exactly this matter. Police records are for ever!!!

            The basis used to profile a male. So if the male is so much as investigated by police, it is of police record. A number of such investigations gives rise to profiling a male as a probable criminal even if only by a number of false allegations without even being charged.

            Criminal records are an entirely other matter. Please stop commenting on matters you are clearly ignorant about.

          • lady_black

            That doesn’t apply to EIGHT YEAR OLDS.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            What are you talking about, it does not apply to 8 year olds? They charged him, did they not? Why do you constantly make such stupid ignorant comments?

          • lady_black

            IF his mother doesn’t have the sense to petition for expungement (and under the circumstances, it WILL be granted), his record will be sealed at 18 and nobody, I mean NOBODY can see it without petitioning a judge to unseal it. And that is more rare than hen’s teeth.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Listen to Walter Fox a prominent criminal lawyer explain what it means to have a police record, which is totally different to a criminal record.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWdcgsFnLsM

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Any time you get arrested or charged, that stays forever, read about it.

          • lady_black

            Your record is only convictions. Dropping the charges doesn’t mean the charges were never made. You can’t unring a bell. But it doesn’t become a part of your criminal record.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Police record, police record, which is as or more damaging than a criminal record. You are a marked man.

          • lady_black

            Nahhhhh. It doesn’t work that way. An arrest without a conviction is meaningless.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Ok lady in darkness.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            An arrest without a conviction creates a police record thereof, and that is the basis of profiling which is extremely damaging.

          • George Booth

            Hey, lady_black, CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!

          • RiseOfDivergents

            Yes it does, as I said educate yourself. It also becomes public record. Educate yourself. I know because I know people who got arrested, charged and was not convicted but charges stayed. Some states let you expunge that does not mean charges go away. Talk to a lawyer, he will tell you.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Don’t waste your time brother. There is no hope here only capricious nonsense.

          • lady_black

            When a criminal background check is done, only convictions show up. I have personal knowledge of that. Every job I’ve ever had asks about criminal CONVICTIONS. And only convictions are public record to employers.

          • RiseOfDivergents

            LB, every job asks about conviction, sure, you are right but when they do background check your arrests and related charges show up. I know this first hand because I am also an employer.

          • lady_black

            No they do not. I’ve BEEN background checked. NOTHING shows up.

        • Erik Miles

          It would only permanently be on his record if he to court, which as far as this story says, didn’t happen.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Please get educated then engage in conversation in an intelligent informed capacity.

          • Erik Miles

            Oh, don’t get smug with me.

            As far sexual crimes go where the perpetrator is a minor, even if the charge did remain on his criminal record, the child could still expunge the crime from his record if it’s considered a “Misdemeanor” ((which considering that penetration or assault didn’t occur here, it would be considered one))

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Like I said, I am done debating with morons. You can chase my tail at http://www.AVoiceForMen.com You have no education in the subject you are attempting to debate.

          • Erik Miles

            You can check the Justice Department’s website if you want. It’s all there in black and white. But if you’d rather trust your overlords over at AVfM, then I completely understand :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I am the authority in this regard at AVFM and in Canada. There are no overlords at AVFM.

            Watch the here below video that speaks to this unknown issue, with respect to data retention by police. Do you seriously think, cops destroy their records and police notes? It is there for ever and relied upon for ever. It’s called profiling.

            Goes like this. Ex wife, disgruntled gf or daughter files report against husband/bf/dad. Police investigate a number of times and record it each time. This may happen once or in sever cases I know of, over 30 times.

            Someone files a complaint or an allegation and this time a determined detective, or worse a feminist thinking female detective, reviews the man’s police record and determines that he must be a sexual predator, rapist or guilty of DV. They say, he got away with it a number of times before, but I will nail his ass to the wall this time.

            They then do what ever necessary to bring evidence, including false evidence before the courts to bring about a finding of guilt against an innocent man.

            Instead of doing your research solely on the net, put your boots on and do some investigative work face to face with cops. They will tell you things google search will never tell you.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWdcgsFnLsM

          • Erik Miles

            Again, nice anecdote you have there, and they sure do make for some pretty interesting stories…but they’re pretty shitty as a form of evidence.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Remain ignorant.

          • Erik Miles

            You show me some undeniable proof that isn’t some anecdote, then maybe I’ll consider believing you.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            There is no meaning or benefit to convince you one way or another. Think what you want. Like I said, put on your boots and speak with cops, off the record, or with Judges, or lawyers or crown/district attorneys, they will help you to understand. But I don’t think you care to understand. Instead you will deepen the same old rut you have been traversing to the point your vision is fully obscured. Progress has been made by people with an open mind, not with closed minds.

          • Erik Miles

            So basically a, “You just don’t understand, man.” rebuttal?
            Well, as the supposed authority of AVfM in Canada, isn’t assumed that it’s your job to help people understand? I mean, if it is, then you’re doing a pretty shitty job of it if all you’ve got in your arsenal is anecdotes

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you realize you have contributed nothing useful here? What a waste of human cells. Even crap has value, but nothing even close from you Erik. You are much like a cackling old hag.

          • fiona64

            Do you realize you have contributed nothing useful here? What a waste of human cells

            Funny, that’s just what I think of you and your ilk.

          • expect_resistance

            Wow another sexist comment. Again you are proving the author’s point.

          • Erik Miles

            So what have you brought, exactly?
            Because so far, all you’ve done is make the claim that somehow, only the penetrator in rape cases can be the rapist (which isn’t true).
            I’ve backed up my position with reports from the Department of Justice.
            All you’ve brought are a few anecdotes from random cops.

          • lady_black

            Yeah buddy, but I don’t think even COPS pin labels on 8 year olds. And I don’t have a high opinion of cops.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            “or worse a feminist thinking female detective”

            BWAHAHAHAHA! You numbskull.

          • lady_black

            The arrest was probably ALREADY expunged at the request of the prosecutor. Arrest records without conviction do not show up in a criminal background check.

          • Erik Miles

            Yeah. It would be assumed that after the prosecutors dropped their charge, either them or the boy’s parents would expunge the deed from his records.

          • lady_black

            You DO realize that anyone can be arrested, right? It doesn’t mean the charges are valid, or that anyone who matters will ever find out about it. My daughter got a DUI four years back. It was her first offense, so she entered a one-time pre-trial diversion program and successfully completed it. The charges got dropped and her record expunged. She can now honestly say on any job application that she has no criminal record, and no one will ever find out that she made a mistake. The only record kept is in the Department of Transportation, where it shows up as a 60 day suspension. Since that boy was 8 years old, he’s a juvenile. Any juvenile records are sealed at age 18. If the parents are so concerned, they should simply petition a judge to expunge the record. Any judge would do this, if it hasn’t already been done. But rest assured, no dropped charges show up on a criminal background check. Nothing from childhood shows up either. The kid is not “marked for life.” You must think the criminal justice system consists of idiots.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          Go start a lolsuit Napoleon. He doesn’t get a charge you fool.

    • Attila_L_Vinczer

      The most important relevant fact here is that the 8 year old boy was charged and not the 14 year old girl due to the typical bias and ill stigma males, including young boys face.

      Does anyone here disagree the 14 year old girl is culpable, not the 8 year old boy?

      My children have better understanding of the law and the concept of morality than the people here, who I am presuming are adults. I suppose I could be wrong.

      • lady_black

        Your concept of morality rules your life. Not mine. Neither one is “culpable.” Nothing happened.

    • lady_black

      My impression? Neither one should have been charged. You can’t go around charging kids for “playing doctor” or playing “truth or dare” or “spin the bottle” or any of the games kids play. It’s not a crime. They were both minors and no rape occurred.

  • mushkabby100

    People who don’t believe in rape are the same level of stupid as the people who don’t believe the Holocaust happened

  • Renaissance Man

    Deleting comments . . . how typical of contemporary ‘progressives’. You want safe spaces from dissent . . . pathetic. I am sorry but, in the long run, this will not work. You will have to deal with alternative views at some point.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Whine, whine whine.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        What a hollow feminist cliché comment.

        • expect_resistance

          How is that a feminist cliche?

          • lady_black

            If it points out that their infantile comments are infantile, it’s “feminist.” Just like they whine about lack of male contraception, but won’t actually do something about it. If I were them I would be screaming for human Vasalgel trials.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            Instead they scream about false accusations of rape and flood online rape reporting systems with false reports. They’re such activists.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Because when a feminist has no viable means to debate a male, they attack said male with things like, they are whining, they are misogynists, they did not get laid, they are not man enough, etc, etc. The pattern is clear and easy to spot.

          • George Booth

            But, that’s the POINT! To get them to use the Feminine Goad!

            I’m making rather a study of it.

          • expect_resistance

            MRAs whine for no reason that’s not my fault or my problem. Get over your male privilege.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I have less than your female privilege.

          • expect_resistance

            Why don’t you go whine or complain to the men in charge. We live in a patriarchy.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            That is a myth. Women rule the world now and hence the chaos we live in.

          • expect_resistance

            Sounds like you are integralizing your own self loathing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Sounds like a contorted mess you ejaculated.

    • kitler

      A bunch of my comments were deleted the other day. They have a script that filters out bad words and removes the comments.

    • Erik Miles

      Well, if your comments were deleted, then there’s a good chance you probably broke the ToS.

    • http://aikenareaprogressive.blogspot.com/ jovan1984

      They’re deleting comments because a lot of the commenters are trolling and I applaud RH Reality Check for doing so. If this was Raw Story, you wouldn’t last a New York minute, so stop whining.

    • expect_resistance

      It’s RHRC’s website and their rules. If you don’t like it get your own website or go away.

      • Renaissance Man

        No. Expect resistance, expect_resistance.

  • Attila_L_Vinczer

    I am done wasting my time debating with morons.

  • dreamjoehill

    This article is ridiculously biased and confused.
    My objections:
    1. The author over-generalizes by lumping Pick Up Artists in with Father’s Rights Activists, and calling the whole thing MRA. It is wrong and biased to smear Father’s Rights by throwing up the callow and angry resentments of the worst pickup artist.
    2. The author lauds censorship and mob rule when she lends support to “a successful campaign asking Detroit’s Hilton Double Tree hotel to cancel the event.” This is the stuff of raw censorship and mob rule. Disgusting NAZI tactics. Maybe these censors would just like to criminalize the Men’s Rights Movement?
    3.

    • expect_resistance

      MRAs are doing a great job demonizing themselves and don’t need our help.

      • dreamjoehill

        Then why all the “feminist” hatchet jobs?
        Why the feminist attempts to disrupt Men’s rights events?
        Lying hater.

        • expect_resistance

          Only in your little mind.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      I love the long screeds from MRA’s that I can effectively respond to. The reason you’re lumped in together is because there is considerable overlap among all of you. That’s why you’ve named this the ‘Manosphere.’ In fact, Paul Elam published a piece today claiming that everyone is happy together and you’re all bros and should work together because you all have one enemy: feminists and women.

      This is what’s called an owned space on the internet. Mods can remove comments. It’s quite simple to understand really. Likewise, the Detroit Hilton is privately owned and protesting a company hosting a hate group is clearly freedom of speech. The fact that men haven’t had to get up off their asses and protest anything means that when you comment about protesting it makes you look foolish. Calling freedom of expression ‘disgusting Nazi tactics’ makes YOU the totalitarian because you want no dissent. That’s because you’re a privileged white dude who, as I said, has never had to fight or protest for a single thing ever.

      The quoting of Paul Elam is quite necessary. They are attributed to him since he wrote it in black and white. The reason we generalize is probably because like attracts like in the sense that Elam’s hatred for women attracts other men who hate women. The fact is, on this very comment section, outside of your echo chamber, is testament to the fact that you’re a bunch of paranoid misogynists.

      You don’t need help to demonize yourselves. You do it with each comment, each article, each word.

      Now shove off and get a clue.

      • dreamjoehill

        “you’re a privileged white dude who, as I said, has never had to fight or protest for a single thing ever”
        What a strangely bigoted, and trite, assumption.
        I don’t know much about Paul Elam. I don’t think he’s a major force regarding Father’s Rights, and of course, that’s exactly my point, to your closed little mind its all the same. So maybe you could use a clue as well.
        in any case, your hateful little tirade is no tribute to feminist tolerance of dissenting voices. Keep up the good work, sister. Talk about self-demonizing.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Let me brig you up to speed my friend. Diana Boston, aka Joy, auntie alias and possibly unicorn farmer. She is a complete waste of time to engage in any conversation.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I am not Joy, nor Diana. You can’t even read- its Unicorn Farm. Not Farmer Unicorn, not Unicorn Farmer. Thanks for policing this thread, to which you’ve added absolutely nothing of value, except whining that ‘men and boys can’t cry.’

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you care about the well being of men and boys farmer unicorn?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I care about literacy. Ask me a question when a) you can read and b) you actually want to know the answer.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Mert nem fojtassuk ezt a száraz beszélgetést más nyelven tündérkém?

          • George Booth

            That’s idiomatic, but I think the answer is yes, they do censor here.

          • Shan

            Great, another drunk one.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          You got schooled. Deal with it.

  • Dez

    LOL. I love how you write about MRAs and the trolls come out proving exactly what the article is saying about them. MRAs are whiners and will eventually resort to more violence like the anti-abortion fanatics, gun nuts, and religious terrorists brethren in the christian right movement. They feel their power slipping and instead of reacting like adults, they’ll use threats and harassment to push their agenda. Pathetic little boys.

    • sé do bheatha a bhaile

      Suck my cock.

    • Unicorn Farm

      And.. one of them comes along immediately to prove you right, as if there was any doubt.

      • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

        I know calling Dez cute was bad I’m sorry Dez is not cute.

      • Dez

        Yup. Acting like children by criticizing my looks or just using insults instead of acting like rational adults. You can’t take them seriously when they act like little boys. Lol.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          Well it was simply a mirror of how serious society should take your comment cutie.

        • Unicorn Farm

          I just used squares and rectangles (shapes!! point out the red rectangle, kids!!!) as an example to explain the concept of lack of consent being the essential element of rape, rather than force.
          I’ve been reduced to using shapes to explain things to these infants.

    • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

      your so cute Dez, but try trolling elsewhere.

      • Unicorn Farm

        “your (sic) so cute Dez, but try trolling elsewhere.”
        Dez is a long time poster here. MRAs who have come into this space to complain are trolls.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          So from your comment we can conclude that your positions are so ‘strong’ they can’t handle some honest criticism from the outside world.
          I was wrong Dez is cute, so are your arguments Unicorn.

          • Unicorn Farm

            My positions are pretty strong. I have yet to see any single argument from a MRA on here who has provided a valid criticism.
            It’s mostly you all whining about my panties and child support.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            You’ve seen the arguments but remain willfully ignorant.
            Here is a very good reason why feminists can’t be trusted to research Domestic Violence among other things.
            Allegedly Canada’s top feminist people studying D.V. and they can’t get the numbers right;
            You can lead a feminist to logic but you can’t make them think I guess.
            http://youtu.be/NDoMaikQr24

          • Unicorn Farm

            Uh Huh. Cause that research paper, which may or may not be valid, has f*** all to do with my arguments.

            This statistical analysis is coming from a guy who doesn’t understand what a square is.

      • expect_resistance

        She’s not a troll. She is a regular here. You’re the troll.

        • Attila_L_Vinczer

          Danny is a guest, who brought plenty of decent useful information here. Problem is, the regulars here are bigots and inflexible.

          • fiona64

            And here I thought you were leaving. What a liar.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Who put you in charge? I come and go as I wish.

          • fiona64

            We can’t miss you if you won’t leave, dearie.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I don’t care how you feel princess.

          • lady_black

            Oh I’m sure that breaks her heart.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you always speak for others? There is nobody talking to you right now, so be quiet.

          • lady_black

            I’ll speak for others when I damn please, and I’ll talk to whoever I damn please, pig.

          • kitler

            Lex Luthor

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Lagy agyu szamar.

          • expect_resistance

            I trust regular comments who I know and not MRA trolls who are sexist and misogynistic. I don’t believe a word you say. Regular commenters have earned trust you have not.

          • fiona64

            To say nothing of the fact that guests are invited. These trolls invited themselves and crapped on the floor to boot.

          • expect_resistance

            They sure did.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are disgusting. Is this or is this not a public forum?

          • kitler

            Ridin’ dirty.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Eventually with time you thus become a dirt bag.

          • lady_black

            I don’t find her disgusting. You, not so much. This is a public forum, but remember where you are. This isn’t your MRA forum.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Really? So I am at an inhospitable forum, run by a group of feminists? God help us all.

          • lady_black

            Hmm. I wonder why. I’ll give you three guesses. The first two don’t count.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, I’m sorry to break it to you, but when you hold an opposing view…opposition tends to happen.

        • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

          The place is growing on me though, might have to make it a regular stop in my net travels.
          Look forward to future engagements !
          Love you !

    • Dez

      I don’t respond to trolls. Unless you are a long time commenter, you will not get a response.

    • Renee Goodwin

      It looks like they brought drawers full of sock puppets with them : )

    • expect_resistance

      Well said totally agree.

    • DEDC

      YES!

      You said mean stuff on the internet! Misogyny! Oppression! Why do you men keep imprisoning and beating and raping women for the government and Jesus?!

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      Just today Paul Elam posted an article about how the whole Manosphere should be nice friends including the PUA’s, MGTOW’s and the rest. This is in response to Elliot Rodger who had ties to the Manosphere. They’re all speshul friends now. The reason Elam is doing this is to pander to the rest of the Manosphere to donate money because his fundraiser is doing so poorly.

  • crydiego

    After reading this article and many of the comments I wonder,
    who are the feminist leaders of today, and where are they? It is clear to me
    that the conservative right is making an effort to split feminist before the
    2016 elections. They are trying to divide feminists down political, religious,
    and traditional lines, but again, where are the feminist leaders?

    Much of feminism’s strength is through political strength
    and a political faction within its self is trying to cut its strength in half.
    Meanwhile, blogs such as this attack one man who runs one blog and paints him
    as the devil on earth. Nothing this man says or does can destroy an ideology
    that is working for everyone. That being said, where are the leaders that can
    get national attention to speak clearly and openly about the issues of men and
    boys? The tactic of mock and block for men does not work anymore because
    feminism has become a group of tribes that have no central leader.

    Feminist leaders need to step forward and confront the issues
    that concern men today. They need to debate, disagree, or agree but someone
    needs to realize that the MHRM is not going to go away. Equality is coming! It
    is coming and we are prepared to struggle against the left and the right to
    make it happen.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      That’s not true. Paul Elam is an old crotchety misogynist. Nobody had to paint him. The author just had to quote him. Once again, as I’ve said to many MRA’s, in your echo chamber this kind of misogynist ranting is normal but once it gets published in what is known as the wider culture, it gets rightly condemned.

      Now you want feminists to confront issues we’ve been working on for over a hundred years? Nobody cares whether the small group of MRA’s go away. We will keep exposing your hatred as long as you exist.

      You have equality. Men have issues. Nobody is disputing that. What you need to do is stop giving Paul Elam money and stop blaming women and feminists. You want us to step forward and help while you write hateful screeds, attack and dox individual women?

      I’ll give you an example dude. There are these things called crisis lines. Feminists fund these sorts of things. Dudes can call too. Instead of sitting there on your ass pontificating hatred online, get up off your ass and do something besides have silly expensive cons where all you do is blame women.

      As long as you consider women and feminists a target, you will get nowhere. Is that clear?

  • Peadair

    Just a helpful internet hint. You are extremely unlikely to get a virus from YouTube.

    If you are really worried about viruses and uses Firefox, I would use the following addons; NoScript, Flashblock and Block Site. They will allow you to establish control over what you watch and what pages you go to.

    You’re welcome.

    • P. McCoy

      The man is too cowardly to speak for himself but needs his boy pals. I won’t be worrying about viruses I never open links from an enemy-tell your pal.to cry in his beer or hillbilly heroin with Rush!

      • Peadair

        At least you have admitted the truth, you don’t worry about viruses, you know that they are not the real reason that you won’t watch the video.

        “The man is too cowardly to speak for himself but needs his boy pals.” He linked you a video where he does just that, it saves him from having to repeat himself, also it documents his case. It is his video, about his life and experiences. So the only coward here I see is the one who screams ‘viruses’ when they know that is unlikely, and then refuses to watch a video that does exactly what you challenged him to do.

        • P. McCoy

          Oh like your were going to replace my access to the net if I took your bait that your pal could not.buck up and speak for himself. Calling me names means nothing- troll and find someone else you can con and sniker later on ( when their system crashes) as a dumb, hysterical broad.

          • Peadair

            You are incoherent.
            “Oh like your were going to replace my access to the net if I took your
            bait that your pal could not.buck up and speak for himself.”
            Are you on medication? Perhaps someone needs to up your anti-psychotics, you appear to be paranoid and delusional.
            “Calling me
            names means nothing- troll and find someone else you can con and sniker
            later on ( when their system crashes) as a dumb, hysterical broad.” First you call someone else names, then you complain when I call you the same thing. Wow, you really need professional help, you are so out of touch with reality.

            I’m not going to talk to you anymore. I do not want to trigger a violent episode in what is obviously a dysfunctional mind.

          • P. McCoy

            Free to leave go your own way and good riddance

  • George Booth

    Well, let’s see.

    First, women dress up to go out dancing, to be attractive.
    Second, women dance in such a way to be sexual and thus attractive. That’s rather the fun of it, eh?
    Third, to ‘go out dancing’ means that women intend to dance with a series of men, therefore actively attracting them closer.

    And then, she drinks.

    Upon consuming alcohol, she is suddenly – ACCORDING TO THE LAW – impaired and incapable of giving considered consent and any man she has attracted and then has sex with her, has – UNDER THE LAW – raped her.

    Since women now have these nifty new laws to “protect” them from being taken advantage of, a woman can’t legally say “yes”.

    So, I’d pretty much have to agree that – LEGALLY – any woman that goes out drinking and dancing is at least asking to be raped. Remember! All rape is rape!

    This is one reason among several that I just don’t care about rape anymore.

    • Erik Miles

      “First, women dress up to go out dancing, to be attractive.Second, women dance in such a way to be sexual and thus attractive. That’s rather the fun of it, eh?
      Third, to ‘go out dancing’ means that women intend to dance with a series of men, therefore actively attracting them closer.”

      Or they could just like dancing. That’s kind of a thing. In fact, men tend to like dancing too for various reasons other than “attracting a mate”

      “Upon consuming alcohol, she is suddenly – ACCORDING TO THE LAW – impaired and incapable of giving considered consent and any man she has attracted and then has sex with her, has – UNDER THE LAW – raped her.”

      Yeah, and what you’re forgetting is that this also applies to male victims who get inebriated too. Regardless of which gender you are, if you consume a certain amount of alcohol, then you’re not gonna be able use the higher functions of your brain.

      “So, I’d pretty much have to agree that – LEGALLY – any woman that goes out drinking and dancing is at least asking to be raped. Remember! All rape is rape!”

      No, nobody, regardless of what gender they are, are “asking for it” when they go out dancing and drinking.

      • George Booth

        Erik, no, this does NOT apply equally to men, legally. You can look it up yourself.

        Second, if they were dancing just for exercise, they’d do it in baggy comfortable sweat pants. I’m not addressing them.

        Oh, by the way, I didn’t ASK to be contradicted, so don’t be a hater.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          Well there it is, if women dress up they’re asking for it. You must be Paul Elam’s twin.

        • lady_black

          He’s not contradicting you. He’s pointing out that you’re full of shit, and I concur. I used to go out dancing and drinking just for fun. Your problem sir, is that you believe it’s ALL ABOUT YOU. If a woman dresses up, it’s all about you. If she dances, it’s all about you. If she looks good, it’s all about you. If she drinks, it’s all about you, and for that matter, if she drinks and dances in a “women’s bar” it’s all about you. I’ve met a hundred of your type. I used to go to gay bars in my 20s to avoid them, and even there, they show up and make huge asses of themselves. And they always look GENUINELY SURPRISED when you tell them to piss off. Let me explain something to you sweetheart. The sun doesn’t shine out of your ass. If a woman looks good, dresses nice, dances and drinks, it’s about HER. YOU have nothing to do with it, and you never did. Have a nice life, now!

          • Shan

            ” I used to go to gay bars in my 20s to avoid them,”

            OMG, so did I! Because the men weren’t interested and the women assumed I was with whatever woman I was with. And you know what? WE GOT DRESSED UP AND DANCED BECAUSE IT WAS FUN!

        • Erik Miles

          Well, you ever wonder why professional dancers don’t tend to wear baggy pants? It’s because you either trip in them, or they fall off; kinda the two you wanna avoid if at all possible. Heck, even break-dancers tend to put on a belt or shorts.

          “Oh, by the way, I didn’t ASK to be contradicted, so don’t be a hater.”

          Well then maybe you shouldn’t make contradictions… :)

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        Buddy, you have no clue about what happens on the street, in the real world. I am not sure if your are young and naive or old and naive. No, you would have to be young and stupid to speak the way you do.

        I have never heard of a man being deemed the victim after having drinks and having sex with a woman. According to you and this stupid notion of alcohol and sex, every bride and groom who have sex on the night of their wedding had raped each other. Do you see how moronic this is.

        Any same human being would not buy into this nonsense concocted by people who profit by all this, but you would be too stupid to realize that. Immature child.

        • Erik Miles

          “Buddy, you have no clue about what happens on the street, in the real world. I am not sure if your are young and naive or old and naive. No, you would have to be young and stupid to speak the way you do.”

          I’ll admit, I’m no casanova when it comes to the intricacies of romance. However, I’ve been around enough women and been to enough dance clubs to know that women aren’t always going out to “bag themselves a man”.

          “I have never heard of a man being deemed the victim after having drinks and having sex with a woman.”

          Now who’s the naive one? Looks like somebody hasn’t been to many dance clubs…

          “According to you and this stupid notion of alcohol and sex, every bride and groom who have sex on the night of their wedding had raped each other.”

          So are you implying that men can never get drunk and be taken advantaged of? Or for that matter, drugged? Because that actually does happen sometimes.

          “Any same human being would not buy into this nonsense concocted by people who profit by all this, but you would be too stupid to realize that. Immature child.”

          Wait, so who’s profiting from the redefinition of rape? Is this another MRA conspiracy I’m not aware of?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You still have no clue, no matter how you analyse my rhetoric. You need to remove your blinders to see the light. I must have said this a few times now. Put your boots on and hit the pavement and speak with people who are actually in the trenches dealing with these issues, not on some cyber driven social media, everyone is an expert venue.

          • Erik Miles

            Oh, come on. Don’t give me that, “You don’t understand, man” cop-out.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you have an avocation?

          • Erik Miles

            Do you?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Ok so you don’t. Thanks.

          • Erik Miles

            Whatever helps you sleep at night :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You said that already. lol

          • Erik Miles

            “Cry some more” :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Why?

        • Auntie Alias

          “I have never heard of a man being deemed the victim after having drinks and having sex with a woman.”

          MRAs were up in arms calling Amy Schumer a rapist after letting a drunk guy have sex with her.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      It’s funny how some men think that putting make-up on, doing ones hair, dancing and drinking means women are preparing for the inevitable male rapists. It’s so odd how all those activities go together in your mind.

      It’s like you’re saying ‘women want to be raped.’ Do you know what this makes you?

      A rape apologist. Cue mansplaining in 3, 2, 1

      • George Booth

        Those women are putting money and effort into being attractive for an activity that they can’t legally consent to. Actually, it would be true for lesbians too.

        I’m not saying that any woman wants to be raped. I’m noting that under the law any sex she has is rape whether she wants it or not.

        Cue the Feminine Goad : say something blatantly stupid and irrelevant, accusing me of a purely emotional motivation and see if you can get me to “attack” you.

        • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

          Ah no, you just said women do these activities and that in your mind what she’s doing is the thing causing the rape. Why bring up what women do again? Why bring up clothes, dancing?

          • George Booth

            and THERE IT IS! Right on schedule! First the blatantly stupid statement ” Why bring up what women do again? “, and then the, backhanded this time, accusation of a purely emotional motive “Why bring up clothes, dancing?”

            Thanks Joy. It’s been rewarding.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            And that’s what happens when mansplaining gets called out. You can’t answer the question because you know by answering it you show yourself to be exactly what I said.

            The question was very simple. WHY bring up clothing and dancing?

            Then it goes through the mansplaining brain and mansplaining brain says : Oooo I can’t answer that because I’ll give away the fact I think women are asking to be raped so I’l uh, uh, just call her emotional and stupid! Yeah, that’ll work.’

            Shove it dudebro.

          • George Booth

            And now with the name-calling ( dudebro ) and the commanding me obey you ( shove it )! You really are a treat.

            Because, Joey, that clothing and make-up is a multi-billion dollar industry promoted as making one attractive.

            That’s way too much money for you to say that women, generally, are attempting to attract, unless you’re being blatantly stupid on purpose.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            George you seem to be having fun while I enjoying reading your witty comments.

          • George Booth

            Why, yes! I’ve been here before. They haven’t changed the playbook.

            Not that it matters because it’s all going to get deleted/edited anyway. This is a Feminist website.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            How true. Feminists are also control freaks, bigots, liars and an array of other fine attributes.

          • lady_black

            Yeah that’s spelled “shitty” comments.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Now go wipe your dirty potty mouth.

          • lady_black

            NO. You aren’t my father.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I hope not! ROTFLMAO

          • lady_black

            Then how dare you order a woman around?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I would never order you around even if you were about to walk off a cliff.

          • lady_black

            Well you did. Knock it off.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are free to to what ever you want sugar puff.

          • expect_resistance

            We all saw you controlling anti woman behavior. We are watching.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Ooooooooo…… I love women, I may not like you though. And you are being controlled with little to no effort.

          • expect_resistance

            And you are a puppet master with no strings.

          • expect_resistance

            No you can not order her around you sexist freak! FU

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are a delight to me. :)

          • expect_resistance

            You are disgusting.

          • expect_resistance

            No fuck you MRA control freak!

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Hahahahah….Hahahahaha… She is angry and frustrated. lol

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            See, now we’re getting somewhere, attractive because they’re ‘asking’ for sex which in your tiny little mansplain brain means they can’t be raped aka they WANTED IT and GOT IT and shouldn’t cry rape. That was your point.

            Who cares how much money is made by companies. We’re talking about RAPE. You’re the one who brought it up and now the mansplaining part of your brain has to throw some insignificant shit out there like ‘clothing is a multi-billion dollar industry!’

            So what? What does this have to do with rape?

          • lady_black

            Because if she doesn’t want him, she has to look like a slob, and wear baggy clothing. Because, you see, no good time can ever be had without him (or some man) involved. It’s all about HIM and his magical penis. She MUST want him. /s

          • George Booth

            it doesn’t matter if she wants him. If she drinks, then she legally can’t consent.

            Fourteen year olds want credit cards, but they can’t sign a contract.

          • lady_black

            Or maybe… just maybe, now… SHE’S NOT INTERESTED IN HIM AT ALL.

          • George Booth

            So? What does that have to do with anything?

            Um. Do you know what the topic is? I’m getting the impression that you aren’t being argumentative, but that you really don’t know.

          • lady_black

            Yes. You claim that women look nice to attract men, dance to be sexual, and drink to cheat you out of something you believe you’re entitled to. Wrong, wrong, and WRONG. Women look nice simply for the sake of looking nice, dance to have fun and stay in shape, and drink because it’s fun to party. Men are strictly optional, and often unwanted. Expecially smug assholes like yourself. Your personality is a turn-off to all but the most desperate. Stop gaslighting me, George. You don’t pack the gear to outsmart me.

          • George Booth

            I note that women claim to look nice to attract men and that women say they dance to be sexual. Millions of women and billions of dollars say I heard them correctly. Argue with Proctor and Gamble.

            I haven’t claimed that a man is owed anything. In fact, I have been saying that a man can’t have sex from her regardless of her intentions. You’re arguing with a strawman, not me.

            Your foul mouth insults have failed to arouse me to careless words.

            Now that you have confirmed my hypothesis, you don’t matter anymore.

            Thank you, by the way.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            So because P and G make lots of money, and women are dancing and wearing clothes that means they’re doing it for you, for your sexuality and rape comes into it because you think you’re entitled because of the dancing and the clothing,

            Well, aside from the mansplain sidetrack you took about clothing being a multi-billion dollar industry we still arrive at the same question/

            What does clothing and dancing have to do with rape?

            Same question asked over and over. Will your mansplain brain answer it this time around instead of going off into tangents about Proctor and Gamble?

          • lady_black

            Dancing is not “sexual.” And neither is drinking or dressing nicely. It’s nothing but having a good time.

          • Shan

            ” I have been saying that a man can’t have sex from her”

            Sex FROM her? Did you really just say that?

          • expect_resistance

            George sickens me. I don’t think I can read anymore. Please keep flagging his misogynistic crap!

          • Shan

            “Because of she doesn’t want him, she has to look like a slob, and wear baggy clothing.”

            Back in my Dworkin-reading phase, I used to dress like that and wear no makeup. And STILL men made comments, but PISSED OFF comments. Because it made them mad that I wasn’t making enough effort to be attractive to them.

          • George Booth

            Wow, you’re really off your game.

            It’s because legally a woman who has swallowed alcohol can’t consent. It’s ALL rape, and the only thing in question is whether she will report it.

            Men need to remember this sort of thing.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            It is amazing when feminists shoot themselves in the foot. When you point it out them they get mad. So only sober women are not getting raped.

          • George Booth

            Proposed standard is unimpaired overt and enthusiastic consent at every stage, so yes.

          • George Booth

            By the way, take note that the females here are no longer attempting to use the Feminine Goad I described.

            One, that means I’ve correctly described it, and two that means they do it on purpose.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            The patterns are so easy to spot and they scheme quite knowingly usually premeditated.

          • lady_black

            As someone who was drugged and had my unconscious body raped by someone I had every reason to trust, I don’t think you’re very funny, Piscialleto. Here’s an idea. If a woman is drunk enough that in your judgment she shouldn’t drive, DON’T SLEEP WITH HER. No matter if she “consents” or not. It just isn’t a nice thing to do. IF you’re interested, ask her out on a sober date and see how things go. These are things usually taught to young men by their parents. I realize you claim to have a girlfriend, so this “you” is meant generically not personally. However, even if it’s your girlfriend, and she’s incapacitated, don’t screw her. There will always be time for that after you both have sobered up. You’re an adult. You’re supposed to be responsible enough to know the difference between “a little buzzed” and “shitfaced, falling down drunk.” One is a rape and the other isn’t.

          • George Booth

            Thank you,lady_black, for finally AGREEING with my original point!

            I really didn’t expect this. I am so touched!

          • George Booth

            Thank you, thank you,and thank you for agreeing with me, lady_black.

            To wit, my original comment:

            Well, let’s see.

            First, women dress up to go out dancing, to be attractive.
            Second, women dance in such a way to be sexual and thus attractive. That’s rather the fun of it, eh?
            Third, to ‘go out dancing’ means that women intend to dance with a series of men, therefore actively attracting them closer.

            And then, she drinks.

            Upon
            consuming alcohol, she is suddenly – ACCORDING TO THE LAW – impaired
            and incapable of giving considered consent and any man she has attracted
            and then has sex with her, has – UNDER THE LAW – raped her.

            Since women now have these nifty new laws to “protect” them from being taken advantage of, a woman can’t legally say “yes”.

            So,
            I’d pretty much have to agree that – LEGALLY – any woman that goes out
            drinking and dancing is at least asking to be raped. Remember! All rape
            is rape!

            This is one reason among several that I just don’t care about rape anymore.

          • lady_black

            I do not agree with you. That’s why I flagged your comment. Just because a woman looks good, that has less than nothing to do with you. Because she dances, It has less than nothing to do with you. And if she drinks, looks nice, dances and in general has a good time, It has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, or any other man. She’s only having a good time. Women are allowed to do that, you know.

          • expect_resistance

            Thank you! This x1000.

          • expect_resistance

            You are doing a fine job of shooting yourself in the foot. You don’t need our help. Keep going.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You think?

          • George Booth

            This is hours late, but you might see it yet.

            Thank you for reading my comment and understanding it. That’s far more attention to topic than I’m used to.

            Since “impaired” can not be directly correlated to any given amount of alcohol, ANY amount of alcohol can arguably impair. Thus a single sip – which in court can be argued to impair judgement – renders the woman incapable of consent. Lack of consent makes any and all sex rape. Further, it makes any and all physical contact assault. Even getting a cell phone number from her is fraud.

            The only thing that allows this to continue is women not reporting it to the police, and district attorneys who aren’t up for re-election any time soon.

            I wouldn’t be terribly surprised to find that dancing with her is a crime, inciting, conspiracy, slander, something.

            Regarding the attraction thing, the proposed situation is that women went out to dance. Dancing, unless one is using a pole, performing for an audience, or for aerobic exercise involves a partner.

            Either this proposed woman has to ATTRACT a man, um person, to dance or she must ask and get another person to agree. In either case, her appearance plays a critical part and she MUST attract someone other than herself to get this “dancing” done. Even if she is there with a particular person or persons, given the fact that they have chosen to dance in public means she has to be presentable enough – to the other people there – not to embarrass her partner or friends by association.

            So much for the “I dress for myself” line.

            Thus I find the proposal that “women who go out dancing and drinking are begging to be raped”, while hyperbolic, to be legally true.

            This is a caution to men. If a woman is there, where alcohol is served, any interaction with her can be a crime and the only thing keeping him safe if he interacts with her is her abeyance of reporting it.

            Frankly, I think it would do a world of good to give them all the safety they demand. Let them experience all the protection that the laws they have demanded give. Don’t have anything to do with them in a bar. Treat them like the figurative stray children that they are.

            Now, there is nothing that says a dance club has to serve alcohol. Wasn’t that one of the first things that Feminists count as accomplishments? Temperance laws? Perhaps, if women get all the safety they’ve demanded, we can get some of these stupid laws repealed. It’s worked before.

          • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

            More mansplain.

            The question dudebro, is what does the fact that there’s a multi-billion dollar clothing industry have to do with rape?

            Now
            you’re bringing up alcohol which was connected to the clothing and the
            dancing. Once again, what does dancing and clothing have to do with
            rape?

            Your tiny mansplain brain isn’t following this.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Don’t you have something to write to yourself on your mouscheese web site?

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t you have sexist MRA site to tend to?

          • lady_black

            No sir. A woman who is IMPAIRED can’t consent.

          • OldandNavy

            A fine idea and a reasonable one. Why, then, when both parties to an encounter are impaired, is it assumed a male could?

          • George Booth

            lady_black, that’s exactly what I said.

            But you can’t read that, can you?

          • lady_black

            And how is it any of your goddamned business what a woman spends on clothing and makeup? It hasn’t got a thing to do with you, and you don’t get to dictate what’s “too much money to spend.” It’s HER MONEY. Here’s what else you don’t get to assume… that she’s doing it to snag a man. Women like looking good just for the sake of looking good.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Not when she is collecting child support! Bingo!

          • Auntie Alias

            Bingo? Child support isn’t even on the bingo card.

          • lady_black

            Contrary to your assertions, a woman who is collecting child support is allowed to look good, wear nice clothes, have her hair, makeup and nails done, and have a good time. So long as the child has all it’s necessaries, she’s allowed to spend money on herself. It’s HER MONEY. And she’s entitled to have other people spend money on her. Get OVER yourself, little boy.

          • lady_black

            I collected child support, and anything I wanted for myself, I bought. My kids never did without. I also wore nice clothing, drove a nice car, had my hair and nails done. It was MY FUCKING MONEY.

          • George Booth

            I didn’t say it was too much money for women to spend. I’m sure for most of them it’s not.

            i said it’s too much money, and too many women saying what they are spending it for, for you to credibly deny.

            So, who do I believe? You or millions of other women?

          • lady_black

            Women like to look their best. Attractive. Which you seem to think only applies to looking attractive for the sake of MEN. Women (and men) like to look attractive for THEMSELVES. I can look at a man or a woman and say “You look very nice today. I love that _____ (fill in the blank: color, style, skirt, dress, blazer, tie, shirt, sports coat, hat, etc.) you’re wearing. It looks good on you.” That isn’t an indication of sexual attraction. It’s a complement.

          • George Booth

            But it doesn’t matter.

            Whether it was her intent or not she is still attractive – that is she DRAWS attention.

            Further, by interacting with a series of selected men ( dancing ) she has specifically DRAWN them.

            Then, she drinks.

            Under the law, she can not consent to sex. Her answer, legally, is ‘no’ and she can not change it. Any and all sex that she seems to agree to is RAPE, because she can not consent.

            Men need to know this, right?

          • lady_black

            Enough of your nonsense. I don’t CARE if you’re attracted to her. I don’t care if she dances with men. I don’t care if she drinks. None of that has anything to do with you. She’s having a good time. That entitles you to nothing. Unless she’s DRUNK she can consent to sex. Here’s a good rule of thumb: if you don’t think she’s fit to drive, then neither is she fit to consent to sex. Just don’t do it. It’s not nice. Ask her after she sobers up.

          • Shan

            “if you don’t think she’s fit to drive, then neither is she fit to consent to sex.”

            And FFS…who finds a flaccid booze-reeking meat-sack sexually attractive unless they have no other options?

          • Shan

            “Because, Joey, that clothing and make-up is a multi-billion dollar industry promoted as making one attractive.”

            What, and you dress in sackcloth and ashes every day?

        • lady_black

          Maybe they just take pride in their appearance, Jethro.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            More shaming and name calling.

          • lady_black

            Well-deserved. This guy needs to be taken down a few pegs. He’s a legend in his own mind.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So you elevate yourself by knocking someone down. How about you try and rise above. That actually takes character and work.

          • lady_black

            I don’t need to elevate myself. He needs to get his helium head back down from the stratosphere and come back to planet earth.

          • Shan

            You go first.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, you’re comment history doesn’t exactly make you out to be the “restrained” and “dignified” one…

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Ok Mother Theresa.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, I know you certainly wouldn’t want to be outed as a hypocrite. :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You speak an awful lot, with minimal usefulness.

          • Erik Miles

            I know it must be hard for you to have to deal with those pesky viewpoints that aren’t your own.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No, they just amuse me and help me to comprehend how happy I am not be as useless as you along with your equally useless viewpoints.

          • Erik Miles

            Because that doesn’t sound narcissistic at all…
            /s

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you ever look at how much meaningless nonsense your write?

          • Erik Miles

            Hey, I ain’t the one that keeps coming back for more. :)

          • Erik Miles

            And look at that, he’s coming back for more.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            See what I mean. I rarely engage in conversation with a group of ridiculous feminists who are generally irrational, arrogant as well as ignorant.

          • Erik Miles

            You must really care about me, don’t you? D’aww, I’m touched.

            Well, says the man who just got saying that those who don’t share his viewpoints are lower than him or “useless”.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are addicted to your own circular nonsense. I will bet you, like a true addict, you can not walk away from your addiction.

          • Erik Miles

            It’s true…I’m addicted to trolling.
            And you’re enabling me :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Acknowledging your addiction is the first step in dealing with it. Congratulations.

          • expect_resistance

            Thought you said you were leaving hours ago. Go on now. Or are you lying again?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I was talking to Eric not you.

          • lady_black

            Well SHE is talking to YOU. Sack up, stud.

          • Erik Miles

            Oh, but I thought you said my opinion was worthless?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Still do.

          • Erik Miles

            Then why do you keep coming back for more? :)

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Comic relief.

          • Erik Miles

            Or your own ego.
            But hey, whatever works for you.

          • expect_resistance

            Why do you keep responding if you don’t care?

          • expect_resistance

            It’s a public forum.

          • expect_resistance

            No that would be you.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are like the energizer bunny beating your drum and aimlessly wondering about unable to stop..

          • George Booth

            The standard 6-year-old “he did it first!” excuse.
            Did that actually work for you when you were a kid? talk about a lazy day care worker!

          • Erik Miles

            Meh, it’s actually more like a “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, sorta deal, but hey, whatever helps you sleep night. :)

          • expect_resistance

            Now you are insulting daycare workers! Really?

          • expect_resistance

            Look who’s talking? That’s all you do? Quit being a hypocrite.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You are so rude. I am not talking to you. Why do you answer for other people?

          • lady_black

            Because she can. Suck it up, manly man.

          • expect_resistance

            He is so touchy.

          • expect_resistance

            We’ve been over this before. Read up thread.

      • lady_black

        I took him apart below. A woman couldn’t possibly be attractive for her own sake. It’s all about HIM.

        • George Booth

          another Feminine Goad attempt!

          Stupid statement – A woman couldn’t possibly be attractive for her own sake – because being attractive REQUIRES something to be drawn.

          Accusation of emotional motive – It’s all about HIM

          Y’all are so very co-operative.

          • lady_black

            WRONG Jethro! That’s like saying “Why make your bed in the morning? Nobody’s going to see it.” (YOU are going to see it.) Taking pride in one’s appearance is a sign of mental health. Stop mansplaining, dude. You look like an idiot.

          • George Booth

            You make your bed for the appearance? You’re not really on top of this personal care thing, are you?

            By the way, the topic ( see above ) is about GOING OUT and dancing.

            Femsplaining not working for you?

          • lady_black

            What are you babbling about? I already took you apart once concerning a woman’s personal appearance. Now you want me to explain why you shouldn’t live in a pig sty? Go ask your mother. Maybe she thinks you’re cute. I certainly don’t.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            You love him, admit it. Watch. You love George so deeply, you will be unable to ignore him. In fact, I bet you are infatuated with him.

          • lady_black

            I’m not his mother. She failed him. Let him go blather to her about his issues. I raised adults, and I’m done parenting now.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            See what I mean. Infatuation by a control freak. Do you know his mother?

          • lady_black

            He’s lucky I don’t. I don’t have to know his mother to see that she failed. It’s as plain as the goatee on your face.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Your firing blanks and certainly not on all 8 cylinders.

          • expect_resistance

            In your dreams. She is intellectually kicking your tush.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Again! Bud out!

          • lady_black

            Bud out? What is she, a marijuana plant?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Ganja woman is back.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s a public forum. No one is forcing you to be here. If you don’t like it go away.

          • expect_resistance

            Do you?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Do you people have no manners. I was not talking to you.

          • lady_black

            She’s talking to YOU. Deal with it,

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            YES! Right away, dominant woman person.

          • expect_resistance

            That is revolting! George has posted vile nasty sexist crap here before. Again the shit he says is revolting.

          • George Booth

            PROVE IT!

            HA!

          • lady_black

            Yeah, your first comment is under moderation. Would you like to try for more?

          • George Booth

            The one you just agreed with? Cool.

            I said a man can’t have sex with a woman impaired by alcohol. That is what is “under moderation”.

            You can’t read that, though, can you?

            Anyway, the accusation was that I had written vile sexist crap. That is a accusation without foundation. Care to try to show us where I did that?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            So you are the one hitting the flag button. What a party pooper.

          • lady_black

            Yes I am. And I’m not the only one.

          • George Booth

            It’s what Feminists do.

            You knew that.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Yeah, just wanted her to admit it. They hate admitting anything.

          • lady_black

            No, “they” don’t hate admitting anything.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Show me one single time a woman here has admitted to being wrong.

          • George Booth

            Pig f*ck Muhammad! You do realize that in a database this size that it has got to have happened once or twice.

          • expect_resistance

            So do anti-choice teen trolls.

          • expect_resistance

            Anyone can flag a comment but it’s up to the modorators. The resident teen troll flags us all of the time. Deal.

          • George Booth

            I expect that, just as last time, anything I write that makes sense will be deleted and characterized as vile sexism.

            The intent here was to confirm the Feminine Goad. You’ve done that. The rest is gravy.

            Including that you’re flagging me for saying the same thing that you say! That is too wonderfully ironic for words.

          • lady_black

            It IS vile sexism. That’s why.

          • George Booth

            Then you are writing vile sexism?

            I can’t bring myself to argue with you on that point.

          • George Booth

            Perhaps you meant to say that the law that protects you is vile sexism, because all I did was note what the law was and it’s inescapable meaning.

            Is this not what you, yourself said, lady_black? I mean except for the part that I don’t care about rape anymore :

            I wrote:

            Well, let’s see.

            First, women dress up to go out dancing, to be attractive.
            Second, women dance in such a way to be sexual and thus attractive. That’s rather the fun of it, eh?
            Third, to ‘go out dancing’ means that women intend to dance with a series of men, therefore actively attracting them closer.

            And then, she drinks.

            Upon
            consuming alcohol, she is suddenly – ACCORDING TO THE LAW – impaired
            and incapable of giving considered consent and any man she has attracted
            and then has sex with her, has – UNDER THE LAW – raped her.

            Since women now have these nifty new laws to “protect” them from being taken advantage of, a woman can’t legally say “yes”.

            So,
            I’d pretty much have to agree that – LEGALLY – any woman that goes out
            drinking and dancing is at least asking to be raped. Remember! All rape
            is rape!

            This is one reason among several that I just don’t care about rape anymore.

          • lady_black

            NONE of that is true, George.

          • George Booth

            It will be true until you censor it.

            Then it won’t matter.

          • George Booth

            By the way, this is NOT ABOUT YOU!

            This is about all those other women.

            Can’t you get over the notion that it’s all about you and your opinion? I have hundreds of polls, and surveys, and studies. billions of dollars in manufacturing infrastructure, all as testimony that I base my assertion on.

            All you have is you and your friends,and this isn’t about them either.

          • lady_black

            No you don’t. There are no such “polls and surveys, and studies” showing that women dress to impress men.

          • OldandNavy

            True. They dress for their image with other women, or for themselves, mostly.

            Lol. One recent study actually had “I Don’t care” as the number one women’s fashion trend men didn’t like. That matches my own view on the apparel of women. . Or men for that matter.

            http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201401/feminine-foes-new-science-explores-female-competition

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2333863/Women-dress-impress-FRIENDS-partners-ready-pals-too.html

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Perhaps, but truthful.

          • A. T.

            Is this is why keep posting to us? Secret feminist crushes? Oh, honey.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            There is a copious aroma of oestrogen in the air, for certain. Are you flirting with me? (she seems to be blushing)

          • OldandNavy

            Oooooooo… secret crushes. Haven’t had one of those since grade school. Isn’t that whole thing a little sophomoric?

          • George Booth

            I didn’t see myself “taken apart”, and that’s a violent notion.

            You said that you made up your bed for the appearance. I have to wonder what your nifty straightened up room smells like since you think it’s about appearance.

            No, you don’t get to just command me to do things. I’m not under your control.

          • lady_black

            Other posters saw you being taken apart. Whether you saw it or not is immaterial.

          • George Booth

            Since y’all censor here, I really don’t care. It will be deleted or altered.

          • A. T.

            You’re an idiot. My friends and I would dress up and go out and not pick up men. The point was to go out with your girls.

        • OldandNavy

          Eh. …. not really.

          Besides, no one is attractive for their own sake… and they ate at the same time. A person can feel attractive internally – and I think that is a healthy thing – but remember that every person is thought both attractive and unattractive by the various people around them and, in that instance, it is very much about that external person. That will always be true whether that person chooses to express their view or not.

          Why do you think that both men and women generally do quite a lot to make themselves more appealing to those around them?

  • Chris Smith

    I recently discovered a shocking truth. Using only feminist logic (if you can even call it that) I can prove the following:

    If

    Elliot Rogers = the men’s rights movement

    Then…

    Feminism = BEASTIALITY!!!!!!!

    Because many feminists are vegetarian, and both they and beastialitists like animal.

    • lady_black

      WAT???

      • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

        We might do better not to ask.

    • George Booth

      It’s an analogy that is logically consistent and, I must say, occasionally predictive.

      Thank you.

      • Attila_L_Vinczer

        I had the distinct pleasure to converse with Erin Pizzey for many hours while presenting at the http://www.TorontoDV.com Symposium I hosted. She explained to me that the reason it is impossible to have a meaningful or logical conversation with these folks is they are irrational thinking.

        • Erik Miles

          Ah, so basically it’s a much longer, pseudo-intellectual variation of the classic, “You just don’t understand, man” cop-out you used.

          Well, at least we know where you got it from.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            I recall having more intellectually viable dialogue with grade one students I volunteered to help learn reading.

          • Erik Miles

            Just couldn’t resist using those insults, could ya bucko?

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Sorry you feel insulted, was not my intention. What is a bucko? You sound like Ritchie Canningham.

          • Erik Miles

            Oh, it’s just a little bit slang. Admittedly, it is an oldie, but it certainly has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?
            You know, kinda like how you keep calling calling women, “Princess”.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Princess vs bucko? relevance?

          • Erik Miles

            Well, only the sense that you’re not exactly shy about using demeaning little pet names.
            Oh, that’s cute. The guy who used a Happy Days reference is talking to me about relevance.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            No relevance.

          • Erik Miles

            You don’t like relevance? Well that explains a lot.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            None to be found none to be liked or disliked.

          • OldandNavy

            Hello Attila. I have read some of your articles and researched the work you are doing up north of here.

            Pleased to see you out and about.

          • Attila_L_Vinczer

            Thanks. Keep your eyes peeled at AVFM.

            A massive bombshell article is to be published this week. Describing how Christine Rupert,, aided by her lawyer Donna MaCfarlane, endorsed by Judge Thomas Wood, engage in defrauding William Mullins-Johnson of his restitution award.

            Bill was wrongfully convicted and wrongfully incarcerated for 12.5 years as female CAS workers pushed to have him charged and convicted with the murder and sodomy of his 3 year old niece. This was all a fabrication by the mindset of females, much like the ones I see here rambling on.

            Donna MaCfarlane has issued a libel warning for this article I wrote. Boy, is she wrong about trying to bully me. I will make her lawyer head spin in court if she is stupid enough to take it to that arena, where she usually has her way.

            Not with me, because I will explore every possible rule of procedure to out her and Christine Rupert for going after his settlement. The whole lot of them are disgusting.

            http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/wrongfully-convicted-william-mullins-johnson-files-650000-fraud-civil-suit-against-christine-rupert/

          • A. T.

            At least he realizes we’re royalty?

          • Shan

            *snort*

          • A. T.

            I *am* the Princess. ;)

          • Shan

            We are all Princesses of equal value. Even Attila.

          • A. T.

            Lol. Now that’s a mental picture. And nah, I was being silly. I took my twitter nickname based on the insults they gave me, Princess being one. Because MRAs love to do the ‘Princess, cupcake, sweetie’ etc.

          • Erik Miles

            I suppose?

          • OldandNavy

            I usually throw a cupcake, bub or princess in when I’m conversing with belligerent folks.

            It riles most people and that is usually the aim in such instances.

          • A. T.

            It’s why I deliberately picked the name Princess Cupcake. If I could have worked ‘Sweetheart’ in there and still sounded cool, I would have. :)

          • OldandNavy

            I prefer “princess pillowcase”, personally.

        • A. T.

          lol. Yes. We’re part of a vast, irrational conspiracy. You found me out.

    • Erik Miles

      I’m guess this shocking bit of parody sounded better your head?

      • Chris Smith

        What is shocking is what you people do with animal…Gross!!!

        • Erik Miles

          You seem to talking about beastiality quite a bit.
          Is there something you’re not telling us?

          • Chris Smith

            I do not understand question, please clarify.

          • Erik Miles

            Well, reading it again might help.

          • Chris Smith

            Well leaving the animals alone might also help.

          • Erik Miles

            I’m not the one seems to insist that we bring up animals.

          • Chris Smith

            “Bring animals?” That is the least offensive thing feminists do with them. Some of us have to eat them you know…You sir, are a beast-rape apologist!!!!

          • Erik Miles

            D’awww, he thinks he’s doing satire.

          • lady_black

            He’s DRUNK. That’s the only explanation for him thinking he makes sense.

          • Chris Smith

            Nope, As I said: “feminist logic”

          • expect_resistance

            You sound like you have lost touch with reality. You might want to do a self check.

          • Chris Smith

            Again, feminist logic:

            If I have lost touch, what good would a “self-check” do? How would I be qualified to carry one out in that situation?

            Perhaps you should lay off the beasts so that you can think clearly again.

          • A. T.

            He’s very upset and this is his tantrum and/or attempt at satire. It’s like the little kid trying to impress the adults. You just kind of nod and wait for it to be over.

          • lady_black

            You are not a feminist, know nothing about feminism, and don’t have the skills to use logic. The only place your dumb statements are “logical” are inside your mind. And that’s the booze talking. Or whatever you’re “on.”

          • Chris Smith

            Nope, its your logic as a feminist

          • Erik Miles

            I was thinking acid, but I suppose alcohol could do that.

          • OldandNavy

            He has a point to be made down in there, though the execution isn’t how I would have done it.

            What he is trying to illustrate is the very real tactic used by many factions where they relay an idea over and over again, in as many places as possible – as often as possible with the very real expectation that it will be repeated more widely until it becomes “common knowledge”.

            For instance:

            The commonly held belief that most domestic violence is perpetrated by men and women are primarily the victims.

            This is not true at all. In fact, unilateral intimate partner violence is so common amongst both men and women that domestic violence isn’t a gendered issue at all. It’s a human issue with mainly gendered attention.

            References….the first a meta study listing over 200 scholarly works and research pieces showing that women are just as our more violent than men in relationships…

            http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

            http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/01/30/a-hidden-crime-domestic-violence-against-men-is-a-growing-probl/

            http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assaultsbib.html

          • lady_black

            English is not your first language, is it? Because, you’re losing something in translation. Your comment is nothing but stream of consciousness babbling that makes no sense. Either that, or you’ve been drinking, in which case SOBER UP before posting.

          • Shan

            He’s gonna be SO embarrassed in the morning.

    • http://www.mancheeze.wordpress.com Joy

      If you’re looking for the right comparison between Rodger and the MRM I’ll give it to you: Rodger was a misogynist who most certainly was posting in the so called Manosphere. In fact, the very site Rodger posted on was modded by Jalon Cain, who is a writer for AVFM. Rodger might not have called himself an MRA but his ideas about women are eerily similar to the ideas of the Manosphere of which he WAS a part.

      Rodger thought women owed him something: MRA’s think women owe them something. Rodger hated women. MRA’s hate women. Rodger hated men who were sleeping with and having good relationships with women. MRA’s call men who are having good relationships with women ‘manginas’, ‘white knights’ and ‘purple poodles.’

      See, this isn’t so hard.

      Just today Paul Elam, an MRA posted an article on his site declaring all the little factions of the Manosphere ‘family.’

      • Chris Smith

        Yes

        Conjecture = “an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information” = Feminism

        Therefore:

        Feminists entitled to money and beast!

        • lady_black

          What the Sam Hill are you even TALKING about, you derptard? What does feminism have to do with animals or vegetarians?

          • Chris Smith

            You know exactly, don’t pretend…Feminists like beast, and not for dinner!

          • lady_black

            No, I really don’t. Probably because one has nothing to do with the other. Put the plug back in the jug.

          • Chris Smith

            “one has nothing to do with the other”

            Like the Elliot Rogers thing? How about you and friends put animals back in barn and leave alone. OK?

          • lady_black

            I don’t HAVE a barn. And you’re nuts!

          • Chris Smith

            Barn, yard, kennel, dog-house, cat-house, fish tank…All the same. Leave animal alone! Beast dont like human in that way!!!

          • lady_black

            No I will not leave my pets alone. And if you come anywhere near my pets, I will HURT YOU.

          • Chris Smith

            hahaha!!!!!! Im no feminists and therefore, I dont lay with beast!!!

          • A. T.

            Yes. You’re trying very hard. Have a cookie.

          • OldandNavy

            Hmmm. I wouldn’t. ..hmmmmm.

            I dunno. Strange.

          • A. T.

            I’m not following?

          • OldandNavy

            Lol. That is one strange exchange.

            Looks like Mr. Smith is typing the literary equivalent of boogers to. .. ahem. .. get your goat.

          • Chris Smith

            …hide your goat.

          • Chris Smith

            I could write a whole song about feminists:

            I’d call it the “Barnyard Intruder Song”

            …Hide your cat, hide your goat…and hide your Turkey cuz they’re raping everybody out here!!!!

          • A. T.

            Don’t give him this much credit. He’s trying very, very hard because he’s upset. This is when you nod and roll your eyes, much like when you’re told a fart joke by a 12 year old.

          • Chris Smith

            Upset about what precisely?

          • lady_black

            Having more issues than Reader’s Digest. That would be my guess. Either that or you’re high.

          • Chris Smith

            Hahahah!!!!

          • A. T.

            There’s likely a long list, but to start with ‘Elliot Rogers = the men’s rights movement’. – This is pretty obvious from your opening statement and follow up ones.

          • Chris Smith

            Yes, but my argument, as an analogy, is sound.

          • A. T.

            You repeating something doesn’t make it true, but you’re going to repeat it until you’re bored with it, so eh. And yes, I’m aware of your amazing ability to repeat statements.

          • Chris Smith

            But inst that precisely what feminists do? Repeat the same lies over and over till it becomes policy? I believe its called a narrative.

          • A. T.

            Do you realize we are not the borg?

          • Chris Smith

            borg?

          • A. T.

            Star Trek reference. My nerd is showing. We don’t, despite what you’ve read on AVFM, have group meetings, sign a contract stating we will believe a, b, c and d, and agree to promote the Feminist Agenda according to the Feminist Overlady.

            That’s not how it works.

            People promote policy for a variety of reasons. Some of them *BELIEVE IT IS TRUE*. Some of them have agendas. Some of them are politicians trying to look good. There are a lot of reasons. But it is not feminists simply repeating a lie until it magically becomes policy, especially when Academia agrees.

          • Chris Smith

            Yes, I know that feminists are not a homogenous group. Same goes for MGTOWs and MRAs. But I think the feminists who have agendas are the ones who essentially make policy for the rest of us, and there is a narrative that completley ignores facts and evidence.

            I will concede then, not all of you are into Beast Love, if that makes a difference here. Obviously Im clowning some people on here. But do you at least see the point Im trying to make about Elliot Rogers?

          • A. T.

            Have you seen Congress lately? Feminists have power, but so does, say, the NRA. Pro-life groups. Others. Do you read the news at all? Seriously? Do any MRAs? The anti-abortion measures past were very much not feminist.

            Feminists have a lot of victories, but many losses and there are a lot of other players. They don’t rule. Please do some research on lobbyists and Washington. Start with the NRA, just for fun, then tell me we ‘rule’. If the MRAs focus more on working and less on attacking feminists, you’ll do better.

            And yes, and no. It’s annoying to have him attributed to MRM when he was into anti-PUA and didn’t care remotely about other men or men’s issues. Or pretend to.

            It’d be nice if you realized it’s as scary as hell when I have MRAs telling me things that I read in his last documents- we’re the evil gatekeepers of sex. Can you get that’s scary too?

          • Chris Smith

            Yes I read the news, but I live in Canada so Im more into what going on up here. I think the U.S. is so messed up, we just turned ourselves off from what is going on. I wouldn’t even go there to visit.
            But here in Canada its no pick-nick for men. Women here are essentially a privilege class, whether its affirmative action, education, social assistance. And the thing is, it doesnt matter what party is in charge. Whether its is for right-wing ideological reasons, or liberal progressive reasons, the trend is to give women a leg up over men in every aspect.

            Im glad you can differentiate Elliot Rogers from the MRM. But understand, sounding similar in something does not make them the same. I have not read the Elliot Rogers manifesto, or watched his videos entierly. But the reason why he sounds scary is that some of what he said is generally true, and those truths have been repeated by MRA types.

            Women are essentially the gatekeepers of sex. They decide when, where and with who. Thats not a contentious issue, its fact. If MRAs spoke about it, they probably talking about how some women either use it to advantage, or use it to manipulate.

            Being knowledgeable about reality does not make one inherently evil. Being aware, deluded and taking it to sinister conclusions does make one evil.

            As a man I can tell you that 99.99% of adults males know this and accept the reality about gatekeeping. Elliot Rogers was delluded and bat-shit crazy.

            That is the difference.

          • A. T.

            I will apologize for assuming you are from the US! Back to reading the rest of your post.

          • Auntie Alias

            “But here in Canada its no pick-nick for men.”

            You have it far better than men in the U.S. Universal health care is a huge advantage. There’s no nit-picking about the definition of rape because there is no such thing as rape under Canadian law. We don’t have private prisons gobbling up men for profit. Murder rates are much lower due to more restrictive guns laws.

            I wouldn’t give Harper any credit for boosting women. He slashed funding to many women’s research and advocacy groups.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            Oh I wouldn’t be so sure on the prisons for profit thing.
            You might want to research who owns the canteens in those prisons. In Ontario last I heard it was McGuilty’s wife and she is turning a very nice profit from it.
            Then there is the debtors prison for dad’s (but not for mom’s) which helps provides at least 1 government entity with a tidy profit.
            While our rape laws are gender neutral our public perception is and has been carefully crafted by feminists at the federal and provincial level with feminists instructing the 3 arms of the legal system on how to prosecute. (police crown and judiciary all receive lesson from mommy feminism) So while the laws themselves are worded gender neutral, enforcement is not.
            And yet after 50 years of feminist influence I’m sure this situation will be blamed on teh paytreachy and muhhsoguny

          • Auntie Alias

            Canteens for profit aren’t prisons for profit.

            Citation needed on feminist involvement in the sexual assault legal process. Outcomes aren’t any different in Canada. Well, except the sentences are a fraction of what perpetrators would receive in the U.S.

          • http://www.avoiceformen.com/ DannyboyCdnMra

            They run and make a profit from being in those prisons. Not quite as bad as it is in the states but headed that way.
            http://nawl.ca/en/

            http://leaf.ca/
            They get intervenor status in many cases which sets jurisprudence. The there is the conferences they have. Holly Johnson gave one with the Hamilton Police force. The next year Hamilton police put out inflated numbers. I caught them for that too. Now their report has been pulled just like Johnson’s was.

            Will have to poke around the AG website to find the link.
            I’m sure you’ll want it, it just may take a little time to find it again.
            They like to bury stuff like this, not sure why.
            Maybe because its discriminatory and they don’t want the public to find it easily.
            What do you think?

          • Auntie Alias

            LEAF is a women’s legal advocacy group. They didn’t “craft” the law but they have influenced outcomes of court cases. I hadn’t heard of NAWL before. Neither group has a grip on any level of government.

            I’ll be interested to read about Holly Johnson and the Hamilton police. Better numbers doesn’t equal “inflated” numbers. Police forces have a bad history of disbelieving sexual assault victims.

          • Shan

            LOL!

          • OldandNavy

            In some small ways, actually. In this instance, the intended point is the tendency of the general populace to believe a much repeated narrative as fact not requiring critical thought or requiring further vetting beyond the general belief in its verity.

          • A. T.

            In that context, you are speaking of humanity as a whole.

          • OldandNavy

            Yes, in general. If “everyone” is saying something, the first inclination is often to accept it rather than reject it.

            That isn’t true with all things all the time… but it is a tool used often by politicians to create issues or change the dialog on existing ones.

            Several people I know thought that the president was a professed Muslim during his first election campaign. When questioned on it, they couldn’t explain what citation they had for that fact, but recalled hearing it several times.

            It helps of the repeated idea is more or less already in line with the target audience’s pre-existing ideas about things.

          • Shan

            My kids used to do that, too.

    • OldandNavy

      Um….. what?

  • Auntie Alias

    IMHO, he feigns outrage to get his audience all worked up. They go trolling around like they did here to defend Elam and their “movement”. They delight in telling us that we are just making feminism look bad and are driving people into their arms. Over and over on this page you’ll see the mantra that they are winning and feminism is dying out. They actually think bad publicity helps them.

    As long as Elam keeps stirring the pot and convincing them they are the real victims, they’ll keep lining his pockets so it’s a win for him personally.

    • OldandNavy

      That is misleading. By “they” you mean men. Men are, weather your head can absorb the fact or not, victims of crimes, violence, discrimination, demonization, and injustice – just and exactly like women are.

      Real victims are real victims. Your sweeping dismissal of the issues that some men choose to raise is telling. I don’t agree with every one of them but many are valid and deserve discussion.

      I don’t even know why I’m responding to you, AA. I immagine that you are – right as you read this – now dismissing a very valid statement from me with an “oh, screw that… that. …MAN!”

      • Auntie Alias

        It isn’t just the men who go trolling but Elam is playing to their biases.

        “Men are, weather your head can absorb the fact or not, victims of crimes, violence, discrimination, demonization, and injustice – just and exactly like women are.”

        Of course but it has no bearing on my response. We weren’t talking about the legitimacy of the MRM or AVFM. It’s about Elam’s reaction to criticism.

        • OldandNavy

          He gets to react however he pleases. He doesn’t have to be polite about it.

          I have read a lot of what there is to be seen lately and frankly, a lot of it has run from spin to outright, vile hatred.

          Take him or leave him but he is running his own ship on his own terms.

          • OldandNavy

            God. I did it again. I don’t know why I respond to you, AA. Your mind is as closed and your perception as tailored by your pre-formatted conclusions as anyone I have seen around threads like these.

          • Auntie Alias

            Confirmation bias? ;)

            Look, this was just a speculation exercise about whether Elam considers criticism harmful or beneficial. There are no right or wrong answers.

          • Auntie Alias

            I agree with you.

  • OldandNavy

    For the most part, it puts a amo in his can, nearly as I can tell.

    Most of it seems to roll of his back and his attitude is very much “I just don’t give a f&!k what those folks spew”. Traffic to AVFM had gone up measurably with all the frantic writing of late.

    • Erik Miles

      Well, beneath their angry and indignant behavior, I’m sure these fellas are in a lot of pain. It’s just unfortunate that AVfM is just completely uninterested in helping these fellas. Instead, they seem perfectly content in just spewing stories that “one-up feminists”, without actually providing any solutions.

      • OldandNavy

        I’m not in a lot of pain. I’m an MRA. I’m not divorced nor am I estranged from my children, etc. I think that AVFM ‘s goals are pretty clear, If you read into the site much. I don’t agree with everything they print or many of their members… but that’s a good thing, in my book. An echo chamber isn’t good for ideological exchange.

        I also believe that they and their affiliated people and organizations can and do initiate effective advocacy for men caught in some of the situations they are calling attention to.