Texans Tell Their Hospitals: Abortion Is Health Care


Hospital boards, executives, and hiring committees across Texas are now tasked with answering a question they have never before been asked: which Texas doctors are qualified to provide legal abortion care?

This is the result of one of the four provisions of HB 2, the omnibus anti-abortion law passed in a second special legislative session last summer that drew thousands of Texans to their state capitol in Austin to speak up for reproductive rights. In part, the law requires doctors who provide legal abortion care to obtain admitting privileges at hospitals within 30 miles of where they perform procedures, or prescribe medication to induce abortion.

According to two Dallas OB-GYNs, at least one Texas hospital has already succumbed to outside pressure from anti-choice activists to revoke admitting privileges granted to doctors who perform abortions.

In response, one Austin woman is asking her fellow Texans to remind their community hospitals and doctors that abortion is health care, and the public supports safe, legal abortion care.

Sarah Tuttle, an astrophysicist who also serves on the board of the Lilith Fund for Reproductive Justice, calls her effort a “community campaign” meant to encourage medical professionals to see their abortion-providing fellows as, well, the professional peers that they are.

“Laws like this move decisions about fundamental health care from the public purvey into the private purvey,” Tuttle told RH Reality Check. Her website, Abortion Is Healthcare, contains sample letters that she’s encouraging her fellow Texans to send to their own OB-GYNs, telling them: “It disappoints me to see our abortion providers, even when they are privately supported, publicly abandoned.”

For many Texas hospitals, the decision to grant admitting privileges to doctors is more about the business those doctors might be able to generate than a definitive statement about the quality or skill of the doctors themselves.

Amy Hagstrom Miller, who owns a group of abortion-providing health centers in Texas, Minnesota, and Maryland, said earlier this year that she was forced to close her South Texas clinic when doctors in McAllen, near the U.S.-Mexico border, failed to stand up in support of the abortion providers who worked in her facility there.

Without vocal support from the medical community—many members of which, Hagstrom Miller said, were afraid to come out in support of abortion rights despite referring their patients to her doctors when they needed legal abortion care—doctors are often unable to secure the sponsorships and recommendations they need to obtain privileges at hospitals.

“The thing I’m enraged about is the absolute silence from doctors who referred their patients for abortion,” Hagstrom Miller told RH Reality Check in February, just before HB 2 forced her to close her facilities in McAllen and in Beaumont, Texas.

Hospitals themselves, and the doctors, executives, board members, and staff who are tasked with granting or revoking doctors’ admitting privileges, can be susceptible to coercion and pressure from a vocal anti-choice community that has threatened to picket and protest at hospitals which grant admitting privileges to abortion providers.

Earlier this year, a Dallas hospital suddenly revoked admitting privileges to two abortion providers, telling the doctors in a letter that because they provide legal abortion care at offsite, non-hospital locations, their affiliation with University General Hospital Dallas would create “significant exposure and damages to UGHD’s reputation within the community.”

That letter was written and signed by University General Hospital CEO Charles Schuetz, a Republican political donor. As an entity, University General Hospital, L.P. has donated $105,000 to four different Republican campaigns, including the David Dewhurst Committee—Dewhurst, Texas’ outgoing lieutenant governor, famously tweeted last summer that shuttering all but a handful of abortion providers in the state, rather than increasing the safety of abortion procedures, was the express intent of the omnibus anti-abortion legislation his party ushered through.

Schuetz’s language concerning his hospital’s “reputation” mirrors language used by Mark Crutcher, an anti-choice North Texas man who told an anti-choice blogger this month that his organization, Life Dynamics, has sent “a letter to every hospital administrator in Texas.” Crutcher’s letter tells hospitals, in part:

the competence and character of practitioners who work at abortion clinics is inevitably beneath the standards insisted upon by most hospitals; hospitals do not want to have their reputations damaged by the stigma that accompanies both abortion and the people who do them …

In November 2013, Life Dynamics also sent a graphic mailer entitled “Hired Killers” to Texas doctors, calling abortion providers “the most prolific killing machine the world has ever known,” and alleging that they are “out to recruit” their fellow medical professionals.

University General Hospital Dallas settled out of court with the abortion providers whose privileges it revoked, after the doctors sued the hospital on the basis of a state law that bars hospitals from discriminating against physicians who provide legal abortion care. The doctors have retained their admitting privileges, though both will be forced to stop providing abortion care at their clinics this September, when the part of HB 2 that requires abortion facilities to operate as hospital-like ambulatory surgical centers goes into effect, leaving a total of six legal abortion facilities open in the state.

Despite the overwhelming safety of legal abortion as a medical procedure—14 times safer than childbirth, aspiration abortion performed before 13 weeks’ gestation has a less than 0.5 percent complication rate for complications that require additional surgical procedures and/or hospitalization, according to the National Abortion Federation—Texas law now requires abortion providers be singled out for scrutiny by the hospital staff and executives, without whose approval Texas doctors cannot perform legal abortion care in off-site, non-hospital clinics.

While state law governs where, and in what type of facility, a wide range of medical procedures may be performed, abortion providers are the only doctors in the state who are uniquely required to have admitting privileges in order to perform this one procedure—whether that involves prescribing medication that induces abortion, or performing an in-clinic abortion.

Mainstream medical associations opposed HB 2’s admitting privileges requirement when conservative legislators proposed it last year; while lawmakers claimed it would raise the standard of care for people who seek legal abortions in Texas, the Texas Medical Association, the Texas Hospital Association, and the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), did not agree. In fact, ACOG wrote an open letter to Texas legislators opposing the requirements, stating that Texas’ new abortion restrictions would “jeopardize women’s health care and interfere with medical practice and the patient-physician relationship.”

With her Abortion Is Healthcare initiative, Sarah Tuttle told RH Reality Check that she hopes to remind doctors and hospitals that their patients—the people who pay their bills—support legal abortion care.

“It’s easier for health-care providers to say they’re already so wrapped up in regular lawsuits from regular malpractice suits, it has made the medical providers exceptionally risk-averse,” said Tuttle. “When they don’t hear community support, it’s very easy to say, ‘We can’t [publicly support abortion care] right now.'”

Tuttle is encouraging Texans to host letter-writing parties in their homes and worship communities, and to send those letters to their private physicians, general practitioners, and OB-GYNs.

“I’d like us to start reaching out to our everyday OB-GYNs, to hospitals, to dentists, to all the people who support that whole medical infrastructure,” Tuttle said. She herself is starting in Austin, where she lives, asking the dean of the new University of Texas medical school, which is affiliated with the Seton Catholic medical system, to “strive to give our medical students a robust education including compassionate reproductive health care.”

“This isn’t about peer pressure from the outside,” Tuttle said, but about “having a letter writing group at your church or temple or group of friends, saying ‘This is important to us, and I care about what happens in my community.'”

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  • TheBrett

    That’s the problem right there, isn’t it? The anti-choice lunatics more or less run the Texas Republican Party because of their heft in its primaries, and most Texans simply don’t care enough about the issue to make them suffer for it even if professional associations step up. It’s probably going to have to take some truly appalling stuff to happen before they finally do.

  • grannieannie2

    I’d like to see a list of doctors all over the country who are qualified to treat girls and women who perform self-abortions because of these country-wide draconian laws. Maybe we also need to have a handy list of all the funeral parlors who handle those women and girls who die because of self-performed or botched abortions. Those lists should be available in every school, library, church, social club, etc. because once abortion is illegal, abortion will not cease, it will just return to the back alleys. Ask anybody who was around before Roe vs. Wade and you’ll be shocked!

    I worked as a nurse’s aide when I was 16 during WWII and I had an early awakening because of the number of girls and women who were wheeled into our hospital with blood running down their legs. The older nurses kindly explained to us baby nurse’s aides why this was happening. Women and girls didn’t stop having abortions, they just stopped have safe abortions unless they were wealthy white girls whose daddies or lovers took them overseas where abortions were legal and safe.

    • JamieHaman

      Sadly these forced birthers don’t care about the life of any woman who needs an abortion. I am old enough to remember some from before Roe vs. Wade, and how badly things can go.
      One part that bothers me is that the forced birthers don’t give a crap about the quality of life for a child who is unwanted. Often neglected, and abused, and these people just don’t care.

  • Christine smith

    The funny thing she says “go to the houses of worship the temple .texas is 59% profile and the major majority of drs. are pro life ?that’s one of the reasons the hospitals won’t touch it.there there to save life ,not end it

    • Jennifer Starr

      It’s hard to understand you when you’re only semi-literate. Homeschooling, perhaps?

  • Kris Weibel

    There just has not been any outbreak of outrage on the part of women, not just in Texas but across the nation. It really is time to unite.

    • Christine smith

      No outbreaks of outrage? Hmmmmm wonder why

      • JamieHaman

        Because no woman ever thinks that she will be the one to need an abortion. They all think it will be someone else, til they need it.
        That’s why.

        • Christine smith

          All women engaging in sex has that worry in the back of there mind it could happen . Only difference is ,THEY have an out .that new thing the medical community came up with .its called abortion so they ply Russian roulette . The highest percentage of abortions are you college age girls . CONVIENCE is the main reason for abortion there.before you reply get your facts on stats of health of women and rape and incest percentages of abortion

          • JamieHaman

            Abortions are hardly new. It’s been around for centuries. If convenience is what bothers you about abortions, then call your congress people and insist that it is just as easy to have contraceptives (preventing abortions) to have paid maternity leave (also preventing abortions) as it is to have anything else.
            What you are saying is that you object to the reason of convenience for an abortion, not the abortion itself.
            Do you also think it is your right to judge women for choosing cancer treatment and how that is done? No? Maybe you should work on those mind your own business skills.
            You aren’t God, and you really don’t know.

          • Christine smith

            “What you are saying is “object to the reason of abortion for convenience” no abortion itself . Ectopic pregnancy excluded as both mother and child do not survive .not as in the case of Marlize as one life would be saved. Your statement on judging a women for choosing cancer treatment ?that statement holds no water .cancer treatment is to SAVE a life.no I’m not God ,but the good book will tell you everything you need to know of the MIND of God and YES I do know the mind of God in this abortion matter

          • JamieHaman

            The Bible also thinks it’s ok to own slaves. Says it’s ok to marry off your daughter for being raped.
            It’s ok to kill every one in a conquered city, except virgins.
            Its ok to kill every pregnant woman, newborn child, older children and men on a planet except Noah and his family.
            Claims that blood is an acceptable sacrifice.
            So, all those things are in the Bible, you think it’s ok to live by that?
            I don’t.
            No, you don’t know the mind of God.
            Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
            When I was thirsty, you gave me to drink, when I was hungry, you fed me….Faith without works is dead. All that is about taking care of one’s fellow man.
            No, you don’t know the mind of God in the matter of abortion. You know what you have decided, and what you think is good for everyone.
            Not everyone agrees with you.

          • Christine smith

            That was the Old Testament and that’s why Jesus came .so your a little confused in mixing the old with the new .a more in depth study would do you well

          • goatini

            America is NOT a theocracy.

          • JamieHaman

            lol Just totally ignore Noah and the Flood right? That may have been before Jesus, but it was God who willfully did it.
            Maybe you need to study the bible a lot more in depth.
            You treat your fellow women like it is your job to run their lives. It isn’t.

            You have no clue about the mind of God, what you do know is what a bunch of bronze age writers used to build a nation. On the backs of women.

          • Christine smith

            do your homework here.now ,why did God destroy the earth in Noah’s day .AND why was Noah and his family spared?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You mean you don’t know?

          • goatini

            The “Noah” story is an apocryphal story of a natural disaster. “Noah” never happened.

          • Ella Warnock

            Done better before by the Sumerians, anyway.

          • goatini

            1000 years before “Noah”.

          • JamieHaman

            Did my homework. God destroyed everyone. So all the pregnant women, with unborn innocent children, dead. All the innocent newborns, dead. All the 1,2,3,4, 5, 6, 7. 8. year olds? All DEAD.
            Surely you’re not going to tell me that they too were corrupted and sinful as well as all the adults?
            Because if you really think that, I suspect there is something very wrong with the way you think.

          • Ella Warnock

            I really love parents who decorate nurseries with the “Noah’s Ark” theme. The have cute ickle figurines of animals and Noah’s family on a boat. I like to tell them they’re missing the most important figurines of all – all the bloated, dead bodies of babies and children and animals floating by. Those wicked, wicked children and animals.

            Maybe Christine doesn’t really think they were dead, though, because as we all know, drowning doesn’t really KILL kill you. In her reality they could have spontaneously come back to life after being drowned for a few days.

          • Shan

            “I really love parents who decorate nurseries with the “Noah’s Ark” theme”

            All mine have figurines of children riding baby dinosaurs.

          • Ella Warnock

            I thought Jesus rode a dinosaur?

          • Shan

            No, I don’t think so. Riding it sounds a lot more aggressive a thing than Jesus would have done. He probably just encouraged it along.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I thought that was Alley-Oop :)

          • Ella Warnock

            Yeah, him too ;-D

            Here’s what I’m thinking of:

            http://www.dailydawdle.com/2011/10/10-epic-portraits-of-jesus-and.html

            Seems he either rode them or gently petted them. Or maybe both.

          • goatini

            I loved that song when I was a kid.

          • cjvg

            Well I guess that is why these “Christians” are not really bothered by incestuous pregnancies being forced to go to term. After all if only Noah’s family survived they must have been doing some inbreeding repopulating the earth

          • A. T.

            o_O You aren’t allowed to see my nursery, if I have one. Or are you nice to nice people?

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s a very nice person.

          • A. T.

            ._. That just made me sad. Saaaaaaad. See the sad frog face?

          • A. T.

            That’s good. I was just hoping she’d be nice to nice people. It was more of a sad frog face situation. ._. <— sad frog face.

          • A. T.

            ..*test* I replied to this and it wasn’t mean or rude at all and I don’t see it now. I’m confused. Unless it was the arrow?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I saw the reply as well but I don’t see it here at the moment–tend to think it’s a disqus hiccup–I don’t think it was deleted.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Because god is a whiny spoilt brat who shows favoritism only to those who suck up to him?

          • lady_black

            Never happened. That’s why. It’s a myth. But if you actually believe the Bible, it says that angels mated with human women and filled the earth with evil offspring. You’d have to be an idiot to literally believe that.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So what you are saying is that the original god got it all wrong, and Jesus had to come & correct daddy’s screw-ups.

          • cjvg

            Holy trinity? Are they not one and the same, or did that change and now one does not support what the other is doing?
            So whose side did the holy spirit choose? Is it majority wins or does god still have the ultimate say, being he is day and all?

          • lady_black

            The New Testament condones slavery and misogyny.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            These are the rules about abortion that Jesus followed below. Jews knew about and practiced abortion. That is why Jesus never mentioned abortion.

            “Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

            An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.” – Judaism 101.

          • fiona64

            Oh, sweetie. I suggest that you go back to your Bible and re-read Matthew 5:17. In fact, I will help you out by providing a very good translation right here (it’s from the Douay-Rheims Bible):

            Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

            Do you know why Jesus said that? Because he was an *observant Jew.* He was telling his followers (who were other observant Jews) that the old laws were not gone just because he was there.

            Thank you, though, for proving my suspicion correct; you have absolutely no idea what the Bible says, or what it means in historical context — you just know what the pastor of whatever snake-handling, Holy Roller church you attend *tells* you the Bible says.

          • Christine smith

            Your absolutely correct Fiona when you recite that passage . Keyword ,recite. Gods law ? The 10 commandments…………..”you shall not kill”

          • fiona64

            Actually, it says “Thou shalt not *murder.*” Killing and murder are differentiated linguistically.

            Thanks for proving my assumption correct yet again, though; you have no idea what the Bible actually says.

          • Christine smith

            Catechism of the Catholic Church – The Ten Commandments
            http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
            Exodus 20 2-17. Deuteronomy 5:6-21. A Traditional Catechetical Formula. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of …

          • Jennifer Starr

            Copying and pasting from a website is no proof that you actually comprehend what you’ve read.

          • Christine smith

            I comprehend , “Thy shall not kill”

          • purrtriarchy

            Thou shall not MURDER

            the bible has no problem with genocide
            Or with eviscerating pregnant amalekite women

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you even managed to mangle that.

          • fiona64

            You’re funny, with your apparent belief that the Bible was written conveniently in colloquial English and all …

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you follow “thou shalt not kill” to the letter, why do you kill animals and plants for food? You should follow the bible & starve to death.

          • fiona64

            a more in depth study would do you well

            And just how much Hebrew, Aramaic and koine Greek do you read?

            None?

            Yeah, that’s about what I thought … which makes you telling *anyone* to do an in-depth study of the Bible extraordinarily ironic.

          • Ella Warnock

            There were exactly ‘no’ lives going to be saved in the Munoz case. What do you think happens to a 14-week-old fetus that’s without oxygen for at least half an hour, likely more in the Munoz case? If mom is without oxygen for half an hour or more, then she’s dead. That means the fetus is also dead. Forcing a dead body onto artificial respiration doesn’t mean that life is being sustained. It doesn’t bring the dead person back to life, and it won’t ‘resuscitate’ a dead fetus, either.

            These were the hard truths that her family were well aware of; it’s a shame most people have so little common sense about what actually physiologically constitutes life and death. No oxygen for that amount of time ‘kills’ you. Even if you’re a fetus.

          • Christine smith

            That’s when you let God decide ,not you

          • Ella Warnock

            Don’t believe in god, so nope, I would most certainly be deciding. And not to put too fine a point on it, but inasmuch as god ‘decides’ anything, he pretty much decided those two were going to die. Because they did, and they were not ‘resuscitated.’

          • Christine smith

            As I said ,that’s your problem .it doesn’t mean it’s true because you say so now does it. .theres an old saying “there’s no atheists in foxholes ” and one of them was not resuscitated because WHY? That’s mans doing

          • Dez

            Only ignorant religious people say that. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes. You insult their service to America. Shame on you.

          • Christine smith

            Ha ha i hope your kidding .

          • Jennifer Starr

            You hope her kidding what?

          • Ella Warnock

            Verbs, nouns, possessives, how do they work? Sadly, some of us gathered here today will never know. Makes me have all kinda sad feels.

          • goatini

            You hope she’s a pregnant doe?

          • fiona64

            Which reminds me … I totally missed kid season at the goat dairy. :-(

          • Ella Warnock

            Not at all. You should be ashamed. Narcissists don’t feel shame, though, so I well understand why you aren’t. You’re simply not capable of such a thing.

          • cjvg

            You know there are even homosexuals and women in fox holes, and there have been throughout every war

          • Dez

            To cure your obvious ignorance.

            http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

          • Christine smith

            Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, & More: 13 Deadliest Dictators …
            http://www.thedailybeast.com/…/the-20th-century-s-deadliest-dictators-photos.ht...
            Oct 21, 2011 – From Mao and Hitler to Saddam Hussein and Pol Pot, see the tyrants with history’s most lethal regimes.to cure your obvious ignorance. This us what you stand for

          • Dez

            Yet that has nothing to do with the fact that atheists exist in the military. Plus that fact that none of those people did it in the name of atheism because it is not an ideology or religion. If you actually had any intelligence you would know that being an atheist is just a position on whether you believe in the claim that deities exist. Wow your ignorance of atheists is astounding. How do you function in your everyday life?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Lots of atheists in foxholes, Christine.

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s not at all a problem for me. You, however, seem to have nothing but problems with it, proclaiming Jesus this and god that to people who don’t share your delusions as if it’s somehow meaningful.

            My husband is a Gulf War vet and and atheist who served with other atheists. So you’re factually wrong about about that ridiculous ‘foxhole’ cliche. It was never anything but a cliche.

          • Christine smith

            Ella let me explain “there are no atheists in foxholes”. hypothetically speaking ,if you find your life has a particular tragedy ( a son killed in an accident ,a cancer diagnosis ,etc) when your as low as you go and facing death in some way that’s when people call out to God .thats what that cliche means.

          • JamieHaman

            If you think it can get much lower than being in a foxhole during a wartime attack, you have lived a very very sheltered life.

          • cjvg

            Actually, the sight of what people do in a war should be enough to convince many that there is no god and if he does exist i really would not want to “honor” a god that can but not will stop that

          • Ella Warnock

            I know exactly what it’s like to face a death sentence and go as low as it’s possible to go, Christine. It didn’t change my atheism one whit, and I drew on my own inner strength to fight my way back to life again.

            You know, we’re actually 3-dimensional people you’re talking to here. Do not assume that we haven’t experienced such things, Christine. It’s not like you ever actually bothered to ask.

          • Shan

            They weren’t atheists, then, just agnostic.

          • Suba gunawardana

            And does god ever respond? NO. If he did, there would be no tragedies.

            BTW why does your god give people cancer?

          • A. T.

            Suba: Was that a serious ask a religious person question or taunt the idiot question?

          • Suba gunawardana

            It was a taunt the idiot question, but I would welcome serious answers too :)

          • A. T.

            Speaking purely from the Christian point of view, mind, the teaching is that we live in a fallen world. Fallen minding sin entered, it’s no longer perfect and things happen. Human bodies get diseases. Natural disasters occur. It’s not reasonable or fair to think that every bad thing that happens is being someone or a group of people did something when teutonic plates move.

            For example, people hurting other people is because those people chose to do evil, not because the person getting hurt was bad. They exercised their free will to do evil.

            I definitely believe some things can be a consequence of sin (and that healing can happen through or not through medicine), but I’m really careful to not go around and go judgment here, judgment there, etc as there’s logical explanations for events. (Also, certain people haven’t been struck by lightning yet. >_o )

          • Suba gunawardana

            So considering this fallen world involves so much suffering to innocent individuals through no fault of their own, it contradicts the concept of a god who is both all-loving and all-powerful…

          • A. T.

            It depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Whether you see it as the price of humans having free will or whether see it as proof that God ‘failed’.

            Evil’s certainly something we all struggle with, regardless of faith or lack of faith. >_o I admit sometimes the only consolation I have is thinking there will be justice, if only in the next life.

            Please don’t take that is an attempt at conversion or preaching. It’s just my (sometimes) response to reading horrible, horrible things in the news when innocent people have suffered. ._.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Not at all, it’s nice to finally discuss this with someone with an open mind :)

            If it’s the price of humans having free will, how come the price is almost ALWAYS paid by those without free will, such as animals, children, the disabled? If there’s a loving god, why wouldn’t he alleviate suffering of the innocent victims (and let those with free will hash it out among themselves)?

          • Christine smith

            You said a mouthful !( The price is Always paid by those without free will ..and …”why wouldn’t he alleviate suffering of “INNOCENT victims and let those with free will hash it out among themselves) .He did . Man won’t listen.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What in the world did punctuation ever do to you?

          • Christine smith

            Let me fix this for you . You said a mouthful. “The price is always paid by those without free will. Also she says ,” why wouldn’t He alleviate suffering of innocent victims and let those with free will hash out it among themselves ” my response is ,He does but man won’t listen . Are you ok now ? This is for you Jennifer ….the wisdom of the fool is in his mouth,but the the mouth of the wise is in his heart. Girl? Take the log out .have a great night.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So what if man won’t listen? Isn’t your god supposed to be all-powerful?

            Why does your “all-powerful” god need man’s permission to help the innocent? That means he is weak and impotent, lowlier than man. And you worship this creature why?

          • Christine smith

            Namely the defenseless that can’t speak

          • kitler

            If they are so defenseless why do they kill and maim their hosts?

            Women evolved menstruation primarily to defend from invasive human embryos.

          • Christine smith

            Time to hit the elect button

          • Jennifer Starr

            What does an election have to do with menstruation?

          • Christine smith

            Does eject work for you ? Are you ok now .lol

          • kitler

            It’s called ‘argument by incoherence’ my dear Jennifer.

            We can only achieve that when we cut and paste song/monty python lyrics…Christine does it naturally.

          • kitler

            That isn’t an answer.

          • Suba gunawardana

            What was the point of that rant again? You seem to be just repeating my point in a less coherent manner.

          • cjvg

            NO

          • lady_black

            Never happened to me. In fact, all I was when my little brother died was ANGRY, and I stayed angry for a long time. He had so much ahead of him. It just wasn’t fair.

          • Christine smith

            So sorry lady black about your brother .! I too adore my brother .i can’t imagine the pain. All in all ,with all this blogging and hot emotions ,if you read the very first post of mine ,I stated my opinion (my opinion ) on the subject of regulations for for hospital privilege s .per usual with blogging the subject has legs and starts running . A lot of people have a real hard time with someone of an opposing opinion. As far as the cliche ,I mentioned ,when things happen ,as in your case with your little brother ,and in my own life ,it makes a person take pause (for me personally) and that’s when the search begins.after a 40 yr search this is where I landed ,and here I’ll stay on my personal opinion .have a great day!

          • JamieHaman

            Got some news for you. My dad fought in WWII, in the Pacific Theater and he said there were definitely atheists in the foxholes.

          • Ella Warnock

            Christine totally knows more about war than dudes who were in wars. Those silly guys who are lying about knowing atheists in foxholes. Those veterans LIE, man. Can’t trust a one of them.

          • Mindy McIndy

            My dad is an atheist who went through four tours and is a testament to the fact that there ARE atheists in foxholes.

          • Christine smith

            Hmmmmm ,I wonder where they are now?

          • JamieHaman

            Really? If you believed in a merciful all loving god, you would know that there is no greater gift than to lay down one’s life for one’s fellow man. Plenty of those atheists did just that.
            You shouldn’t be wondering at all.

          • goatini

            There is no “hell”, but if there were, you’re holding an express ticket.

          • Ella Warnock

            Word. Most narcissists would go to hell if there was one.

          • lady_black

            In their graves. Just like my mother, both grandmothers and grandfathers and little brother who I will never see again.

          • fiona64

            Where are they? Dead.

          • lady_black

            There are all kinds of atheists in foxholes.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Which one?

          • Ella Warnock

            Indeed.

          • Christine smith

            Well well now ,let’s see .its not the “wine god ” it’s not the “sex god” and it’s certainly not the abortion god .good one girls!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I go with Ares. It’s Ares, right?

          • Shan

            No, that’s the god of war. Let’s not go there.

          • cjvg

            Lets go with Sif, wife of Thor (patron of humanity) and mother of the Valkyries, Goddess of the harvest and a warrior herself as well (I got a thing for Thor)

          • JamieHaman

            I like Odin better. He said he would get rid of the Frost Giants, we have none. As far as I can tell, he’s the only god who did what he said he’d do.

          • cjvg

            Odin is not bad (and pretty good looking for an older guy) but Thor brought fire to humanity, and I’m all for comfort in the cave. However my choice was Sif, after all who does not like food (bountiful harvest) and strong capable women

          • JamieHaman

            I think I must be reading this wrong…Sif doesn’t like food, or strong capable women?
            lol, I didn’t know that Thor brought fire to humanity, good, I like fire too.

          • cjvg

            It might be me, I had surgery recently and am still on pain meds. I hardly ever even use an aspirin so they are hitting me pretty hard.
            I meant that Sif is the patron goddess of the harvest, and that she is also a warrior goddess (obvious multi tasker), what is not to like

          • JamieHaman

            I like that Sif much better now! Sorry to hear about the eye surgery, hope it heals fast and you feel better quickly.

          • cjvg

            Thanks

          • goatini

            Zeus? Krishna? Dievas? Medb? Lots and lots of gods to choose from.

          • cjvg

            “god” did, she died! Obviously he had no intention of making sure that fetus was born. If “god” did want that fetus to be born he could have killed her after birth!

          • Christine smith

            Not even worth responding

          • Ella Warnock

            And yet you did anyway. That’s actually pretty funny, Christine.

          • goatini

            More like, this poster is an illiterate nitwit, armed with nothing but insults and “the bible is literally the word of god” nonsense.

          • JamieHaman

            cjvg ‘s statement is true though.

          • Christine smith

            Dream on

          • lady_black

            Well then why was the fetus unviable and never going to be viable? If I believed in “god” I’d have to accept that was his plan for them both to die. That’s what happened.

          • cjvg

            Answer!
            Your lack of response is telling enough, clearly you and those like you went against your gods will AGAIN!
            Do not attempt to keep alive what your god has slain!

          • cjvg

            COWARD!
            You are the one claiming that god wanted this fetus to be saved and you are the one who claims to know what god wants but somehow you can not explain why your god kills this woman when he intended this fetus to be born!

          • Ella Warnock

            She’s running out of anything to say, so she’s apparently going to do an epic flounce now. We’ll see if she sticks it.

          • cjvg

            Quite a show she is putting on here.
            But since she claims she knows gods will I would still insist on an answer, she has not been shy so far in dispersing her “knowledge” so I can’t understand what could possibly be holding her back
            Of course it could be that she just now has run face first in those piddly inconveniences consisting out of fact and reality, but she has been quite adroit at not letting those hamper her in her previous exclamations

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep, quite a show of her ass all over this thread. So undignified.

          • Christine smith

            No ,not quite .i actually went to bed for the evening ,unlike the sharks in this blog looking for chum! No, I don’t know gods ,but I do know God what else do you want me to “disperse ” lol

          • cjvg

            Answer the question!

          • fiona64

            I can see her now, in her little skirted one-piece bathing suit, gathering up her plastic pail and shovel …

          • lady_black

            Well, if “god” wanted the fetus saved, he failed miserably.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If the person is without oxygen for an hour, they are brain dead. Which is dead. Therefore, a decision has been made.

          • Ella Warnock

            Huh-uh, not DEAD dead. That won’t KILL kill you. Snork.

          • JamieHaman

            God did decide, that’s why Marlise Munoz was declared dead when she arrived at the hospital. Texas law required that in spite of the fact that she was dead, she had to be put on life support, even though there was no life to support.

          • Suba gunawardana

            When god gives you a disease, do you ever take man-made drugs to cure or alleviate it?

          • lady_black

            I never let “god” decide. EVER. I make my OWN decisions. I don’t even know your “god” and if he’s anything like you, I don’t want to know him.

          • A. T.

            If we’d let God decide, Ms. Munoz would have already been dead, along with her child.

          • Christine smith

            Who died and left you queen? Ooooooh “even if your a fetus!!!!!! You said a mouthful .just shot yourself in the foot

          • Ella Warnock

            Who died and made you queen of what other women’s business is? Oh, that’s right, no one, as there’s really nothing useful or effective you can do about it anyway. That must really suck for you.

            Shot ‘myself’ in the foot? What are you even talking about? You truly do not understand that a dead woman carrying a dead fetus isn’t going to magically going to be brought back to life, do you? Have you ever seen or heard of any dead people? The call them dead for a reason. That’s some painful delusion there, darlin’.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Christine doesn’t appear to handle the English language awfully well. Most of her rantings are almost impossible to comprehend.

          • Ella Warnock

            Nor simple concepts like the difference between a dead and alive person. Apparently being without oxygen and respiration for half an hour or more won’t really KILL kill you. Just ‘pretend’ kill you. Who knew?

          • Christine smith

            Really now ? If your many replies to any of my posts is any indication that you don’t understand me or my “English language” than maybe I’m hitting a nerve and you need to resort to the “nasties”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Okay, so when is someone living in llama land? And how does someone ‘ply Russian Roulette’?

          • Christine smith

            Jennifer really? My response to you is the same one I gave to Ella .i must be hitting a nerve if all you can do is attack my poor iPad

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, it’s sort of alternating between bouts of hysterical laughter and wondering if a person can actually be that dim. But anyway, llama land. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBaUmx5s6iE

          • purrtriarchy

            I type on my phone and yet I manage to not sound like a complete fuckwit. Something you are clearly incapable of.

          • Christine smith

            Fuckwit . Classy

          • purrtriarchy

            Yeah.

            You are an ignorant fuckwit.

          • Ella Warnock

            The fact that you don’t English or logic well isn’t a ‘nasty.’ It’s just a sad truth.

          • Christine smith

            Ella are you that base that you need to attack someone in the English or mental capacity ? Really ? iPads have a funny way huh? If you can’t discuss the topic with any intelligence your defense mechanism can’t help but attack .now that’s a “sad truth”

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh dear, you gleefully dish it out but can’t take it, eh? Don’t go all wobbly on us now, darlin’ – we ain’t buying it.

            No, my iPad doesn’t have a ‘funny way’ at all.

            Maybe you can explain what your ‘intelligent defense’ is of opining that dead people aren’t really DEAD dead, just sort of ‘pretend’ dead and can be TOTALLY magically reanimated. Should be utterly fascinating.

          • Christine smith

            Ain’t ? People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks Ella

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep, it’s a word and everything. Check it out:

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ain%27t

            Good thing I don’t live in a glass house, isn’t it? This one’s pretty cool, though:

            http://parade.condenast.com/61938/viannguyen/iconic-ferris-bueller-house-for-sale-for-1-5-million-see-inside/

          • Christine smith

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ain‘t
            do not : does not : did not —used in some varieties of Black English. Usage Discussion of AIN’T. Although widely disapproved as nonstandard and more … Glass houses Ella

          • Ella Warnock

            Widely disapproved by whom? Perfectly acceptable in the South, where I’m from. Oh, ‘you’ disapprove. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

            Oh dear, I hope you’re not suggesting there’s anything wrong with Black English. That would be . . . awkward.

          • Christine smith

            “Common in the use of the habitual speech of the less educated” which is EXACTLY what you have proposed to me

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ella writes well and knows the difference between you’re (you are) and your (possessive). Something which you apparently have failed to grasp. The use of a regional colloquialism is not poor grammar.

          • Christine smith

            Is that all you have

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s a damn sight better than anything we’ve seen from you.

          • Christine smith

            Move on troll you make no sense

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually I make perfect sense to someone who knows the basics of English grammar. Which you apparently do not. Homeschooled, perhaps?

          • redlemon

            As a linguist, her argument against “ain’t” is driving me into hysterical laughter. I’d love to read her argument on the reasoning why it is considered wrong. Not just a blurb on that it’s considered wrong, but an actual argumentative reasoning on why it is wrong.

          • Ella Warnock

            Eh, there is no reasoning. She just got kind of desperate and thought she’d found a ‘gotcha.’

          • redlemon

            I know and I know it will never happen. Still, my brain is excited by the prospect of picking apart such an argument. It was my favorite part of my English Grammar class (which was a descriptive Linguistic class, not traditional English Grammar). Ain’t is such a fun word to defend.

          • Ella Warnock

            I’d love to see you do it!

            It’s one thing to read definitions and only glean a surface understanding. Awareness of the history and subtext of a term as well as how to use it in its proper context is also crucial.

          • redlemon

            Well, I can give you the argument in case you ever come up against it again. In English, we usually carry our negations on our modal/helping verbs in a form of a contraction. We have:
            I am ?
            You are You aren’t
            He is He isn’t
            She is She isn’t
            It is It isn’t

            In the past (colonial American past, I believe), the contraction “I amn’t” was perfectly acceptable and used. In some dialects, it’s still used. But it can be a pain in the butt to pronounce and say, so, somewhere in time, a vowel was added in and it morphed into “I ain’t” for ease of use. But, for reasons of uptight people who took proper grammar into their own hands and decided arbitrary things so they could discriminate against lower social classes, “ain’t” became a taboo word when, in fact, it’s completely logical and grammatical. The only times it technically becomes ungrammatical is when it’s used for anything other then first person singular, although it also can be argued that “We ain’t” is becoming just as acceptable for “We are”.

            Really, a lot of non-syntax grammar rules were created just to identify lower social classes. If the meaning is clear and the sentence makes sense, does it really matter if you split an infinitive?

          • Ella Warnock

            Thanks, that’s very interesting and informative. I’ve actually heard old-timers in the Outer Banks of NC say “i amn’t” The Ocracoke Brogue is a fascinating thing to hear.

          • Christine smith

            You must read a little further. Ain’t : common in the habitual speech of the less educated. Mind you, I am not going to call you out on your intellect as you have with me in your posts. But I will remind you that, if your perfect ,you must show it for you to be credible

          • Ella Warnock

            “I am not going to call you out on your intellect”

            You just did. Twice. Snork.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s quite easy to read your posts and Ella’s posts and discern who has less education. I’ll give you a small hint, Christine–it isn’t Ella.

            -Proud Southern Woman

          • goatini

            I am able to type into an iPad without any issues. Sounds like you have a personal problem.

          • fiona64

            So, you blame your iPad for your inability to construct a decent sentence, and to differentiate between possessive and personal forms of address?

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • Christine smith

            The plural form for the word “nasty ” is nasties Ella .now let’s get to the point .It doesn’t matter how you perceive my grammar .The bottom line is I personally believe hospital privileges are needed. Sorry if your offended by my opinion. Let’s see how you handle the supreme courts decision on the buffer zone .that ought to be enlightening .

          • purrtriarchy

            Do you believe that women who abort are murderers?

          • Christine smith

            Do you believe that a fetus is human ? Do you believe a pre born is human ? Do you believe an embryo is human ? Answer that first and I will tell you

          • Suba gunawardana

            What if a fetus is human? Does a human have the right to use another human’s body & organs?

            If someone tried to steal your organs without your consent (or to rape you), do you have the right to kill them to protect your body?

          • Christine smith

            How does a little baby in the womb ,struggling to come into this world inflict violence on the mothers body ? Do you compare that to a violent rape? That’s your comparison ? Are you comparing a child in the womb to “STEALING “the mothers organs? Are you comparing a defenseless innocent child of not having the right to be fed and nurtured in the safest place . Is the child inflicting the violence?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Are you claiming that using another person’s body is fine as long as there’s no “violence”?

            Doesn’t a rapist invade/use a woman’s body without her consent?
            Doesn’t a fetus invade/use a woman’s body without her consent?

            What’s the difference? Lack of overt violence? So if you are raped without violence (eg. while you are drunk or unconscious) you would be fine with it?

            Can you give a yes or no answer to my question: Does a human have the right to use another human’s body & organs without their consent?

          • Christine smith

            Is it the child’s fault?

          • purrtriarchy

            I take it you are pro forced birth for rape victims?

          • Suba gunawardana

            “Fault” is irrelevant when it comes to protecting your body.

            For example: Mentally disabled people are innocent, and cannot be held accountable for their actions. If a mentally disabled man rapes you, should you NOT protect your body? Are you obligated to allow the rape to go on because “he is innocent”?

            BTW where’s the Yes or No answer to my previous question?

          • Christine smith

            As I said earlier ,first define consent

          • Suba gunawardana

            Obviously, consent is “permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not a question of ‘fault’. That is simplistic nonsense.

          • fiona64

            These simpletons and their “is it the child’s fault” crap really need to go back to high school biology class and pay attention this time around.

          • fiona64

            No answer then, I see?

            Oh, BTW, all children, everywhere, have already been born.

          • Christine smith

            Define “consent” please

          • purrtriarchy

            The zef actively assaults the pregnant person to sustain its own life.

            Suppresses her immune system.
            Raises her blood pressure
            Steaks nutrients from her body – sugar, iron and calcium from her bones. The above can lead to diabetes, anemia and bone loss.
            Injects addictive substances into her blood
            Releases toxic biowastes into her body.
            Tortures her for 6-72 hours of labour, and then forces itself out of a tiny hole, often resulting in vaginal tearing.

            None of the above are tolerable. We don’t demand that people undergo torture and assault to save lives.

          • Christine smith

            Why would women be created to bear children ? Is it too much violence to be born ? Why did YOUR mother choose the violence of having you?

          • purrtriarchy

            1) women were not ‘created’

            2) pregnancy can be *tolerated* if someone CHOOSES to have a child. That does not mean that the zef does not survive through bodily assault.

          • Christine smith

            Women were not created? Please explain

          • purrtriarchy

            Well what do you think????

          • Christine smith

            Women were created with the GIFT” of bearing children

          • purrtriarchy

            Is that why a billion women have died giving birth?

          • Christine smith

            What would be your point in that statement

          • purrtriarchy

            Is death and disability a GIFT???

          • Christine smith

            On THAT note (brilliant ! ) you all have a wonderful day!

          • purrtriarchy

            Answer the question, cupcake.

          • Christine smith

            Ok fruitcake ,ooops ,I mean cupcake. What? You think you walk this life with sex drugs and rock and roll ?” death and disability a gift” ? Life is a gift ,death is inevitable unless you want to move it along quicker with the killing juice .don’t ask to ANSWER the question again .i did . You can’t handle the truth

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, you didn’t answer question. Want to give it another go?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Does that mean you admit pregnancy is NOT a gift?

          • Christine smith

            Death is inevitable ,disability is unfortunate ..deliberately sanctioning the killing of children is abominable!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Women may bear children if they wish to. It is not their purpose, nor is it their duty.

          • Christine smith

            Do you think your drifting away from the subject at this point ?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m not too sure you understand what the subject actually is.

          • purrtriarchy

            Dumber than a fencepost.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, fenceposts might be smarter than Christine. At least they appear to serve some sort of useful function.

          • Christine smith

            It’s funny how you people whine”if God didn’t want abortions ,why didn’t he stop them”? ……..if God didn’t want car accidents ,why didn’t he stop them ,if God didn’t want a pedophile to abuse children, why didn’t he stop them”? You sound like a very uneducated person (maybe in your 20’s ) that believes the Easter bunny is real .go away trolll!

          • Suba gunawardana

            So what about it? Why doesn’t your “almighty” god stop all these things if he doesn’t like them?

            Obviously god loves abortions considering he DOESN’T stop them, and performs millions himself. Stop going against your own imaginary god….

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t seem to know who exactly you’re talking to, since I never said those things. You also don’t seem to know what you’re talking about. That’s no big surprise Sure is fun, though–watching you come unglued.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So can you answer a question for once instead of ranting & raving?

            Why doesn’t god stop abortions if he doesn’t like them? Why does he perform millions of abortions on his own? Looks like god loves abortion, and you are going against god.

          • Suba gunawardana

            -Women were created by whom?
            -Childbearing is a “gift” ONLY to those women who want children, and are able and willing to care for them. For all other women, childbearing is a curse or a problem, from which they should be able to opt out.

          • Christine smith

            Psalm 127: 33-5 …….. Pay special attention to 3

          • Suba gunawardana

            Haven’t you still grasped that people who can THINK don’t care about what your imaginary god says? (Or what some misogynistic men wrote down centuries ago)

            Try again please. You still haven’t answered many of my questions.

          • lady_black

            Thankfully, I directed myself to the return counter.

          • Christine smith

            ANSWER THE QUESTION! Lol !sound familiar?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why did YOUR mother choose the violence of having you?

            I’m just happy that she had a choice.

          • Christine smith

            Would you consider that to be a contradiction ,especially if she had chosen otherwise ? Would you say my mother chose to have me out of love and respect for human life ?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I assume your mom chose to have you because she loved and wanted you, and not because the law gave her no other choice. Would you have it any other way?

          • Suba gunawardana

            -What does “respect for human life” have to do with it? Breeding and killing are not mutually exclusive by any means.

            -Isn’t it better to be here because you were WANTED instead of because someone forced your mother to have you against her will?

          • fiona64

            My pregnancy almost killed me (my son was born 28 years ago today). I will NOT go through that again. If my tubal ligation fails (they can, and do) there will be an abortion so fast that your head will spin off. Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness; it is rife with risks that manifest more often than not. No one should be forced to gestate against her will; that is slavery.

          • redlemon

            My mom chose to have me because god told her to have kids. So after having kids, she pretty much decided that she hated being a mom, ignored us for the vast majority of our lives (if she wasn’t abusing us) and became a pill-popping alcoholic who gets to blame her children for ruining her life and we, the children, get to go on with our lives without talking to our parents and many years of expensive therapy.

          • Christine smith

            Are you suggesting in your post ,your mother should have aborted you?

          • redlemon

            Whether she should have or not is irrelevant because she made her choice, for better or worse. What I am saying, however, is that I know my limits and I know myself. I will make my choice based off of what is best for myself and my family, not what some mythological being says. I have one child and that one child is my limit. I know this as fact. Any more then that and I would more then likely turn into my mother, so you bet your bippy that I would abort a surprise pregnancy if it happened.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Many unwanted children who are neglected/abused/raped by their parents (or whatever caregivers they are thrown at ) end up committing or repeatedly attempting suicide.

            Do you think those children are grateful their mothers birthed them (or were forced to birth them)?

          • lady_black

            I was not created to bear children. If you wish to make decisions for others, you need a power of attorney. Please show me where ANYONE has granted you power of attorney to make decisions for women and zygotes, embryos or fetuses. If you don’t have this document, and are not the next of kin for any incompetent person, you are breaking the law by attempting to make decisions on the behalf of anyone other than yourself.

          • Christine smith

            Urban Dictionary: Zef
            http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Zef
            South African term that can be likened to ‘Kitch’ or ‘common’. Zef style has strong 1980s influences and is stereotypically associated South Africa…

          • purrtriarchy

            Zygote
            Embryo
            Fetus

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s not very bright.

          • Christine smith

            http://www.invitra.com/difference-between-a-zygote-an-embryo-and-a-fetus/
            Apr 15, 2014 – Difference between a zygote, an embryo and a fetus … At this stage, it has a defined shape, an inner cavity is formed and surrounding this ………..lol! All human note: zygote = living

          • purrtriarchy

            Are you trying to tell us that every human cell composed of h.sapiens DNA in your body is NOT ALIVE?

          • Christine smith

            Would you day that ONLY when egg and sperm unite it is the beginning of life ?.would you say cells on their own without another component can not develop into a child?

          • purrtriarchy

            Answer my question.

          • lady_black

            Actually, if you remove the nucleus from an ovum and insert the nucleus from any cell in the body, it can develop into a copy of that organism. It’s called cloning. And life began millions of years ago. It’s been on a continuum ever since. The ovum and sperm are also alive, in the case of human sperm and human ova, also human. It cannot develop into anything without the use of a woman’s body.

          • Christine smith

            Answer MY question troll

          • Suba gunawardana

            What about the BUNCH of questions you’ve been dodging?

            For example: Does the invader’s lack of culpability NEGATE your right to protect your body? Yes or No?

          • Christine smith

            How is a human created? Would you agree you take egg and sperm an viola ! A human.or would you say that every cell on its own and viola ! A human is created . You don’t stand a chance here . Don’t bother answering . You sound so young and foolish

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, an egg and sperm can never turn into a viola :) http://www.kuaf.com/sites/default/files/images/viola_rbp_mpad.jpg

          • fiona64

            All human

            Nope … all viviparous vertebrates have the same stages of development.

          • fiona64

            You really do not understand basic biology, do you?

            Wow.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “How does a little baby in the womb ,struggling to come into this world inflict violence on the mothers body ? Do you compare that to a violent rape? That’s your comparison?”
            Go watch a birth, either vaginal or by C-section, and tell me if that was done to a woman by anyone other than a pwecious widdle baybee, you’d think it isn’t violent. I can tell you that if you cut my vagina open or my abdomen open I would have you arrested, prosecuted, and convicted of assault, open and shut. Consent is all that matters.
            And forced gestation is like rape in that they are both uses of the woman’s body to which she did not consent.
            The rest of your post is incoherent drivel that the good posters here have been kind enough to attempt to address.

          • Christine smith

            Neither did the child consent . Never got the chance .i speak for the child

          • Unicorn Farm

            This answer is entirely nonresponsive to my post.

            Pathetic. Can you even read? Or do you just recirculate your bumpersticker posts?

          • Jennifer Starr

            The only pregnancies that you get to speak for are your own.

          • Christine smith

            No ,I “get” to speak for the ones that can’t speak for themselves

          • Jennifer Starr

            The pregnancies that you gestate are the only ones you get to speak for.

          • Christine smith

            I’m sorry ,you wrong

          • Suba gunawardana

            Why?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I’m really not wrong. You may imagine that you speak for other people’s pregnancies, but you don’t.

          • Christine smith

            I don’t speak for other people pregnancies .i speak for the death juice they inflict on their pregnancies to snuff them out

          • Christine smith

            I don’t speak for other peoples pregnancies .i speak against the death juice they inflict on their pregnancies to snuff the life out of them

          • Suba gunawardana

            So what? That means you are poking your nose into other women’s pregnancies.

            What death juice? Do you imply that a termination without “death juice” is fine with you?

            FYI you can edit the prior post without having to re-post.

          • kitler

            Abortion by death juice is excellent.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Gatorade? Red Bull?

          • Suba gunawardana

            So how come you can’t put your money where your mouth is?

            Once again: What happens to the children you force into birth against the will of their mothers? Who provides the love, care, protection and resources those children needs for the next 18 years or more? You?

            If Yes: How many children have you adopted so far, and if you manage to ban abortion, can you adopt all the NEW children who would be left high & dry?

            If No: You have absolutely no business forcing other people’s unwanted children into life and abandoning them in a hostile world. That is not “speaking for the child” but willful premeditated child abuse; i.e. speaking AGAINST the child.

          • lady_black

            No you don’t. That requires power of attorney, or next-of-kin status. That means you get to bugger off.

          • lady_black

            You speak for no one but yourself, you pompous ass. Nobody gave you the right to speak for them.

          • Christine smith

            Nobody gave you the right to destroy them. Key word “them” (your word not mine)

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s a legal procedure, so apparently yes, we do have that right.

          • Christine smith

            man made law . Psalm 94 : 20-21. Pay special attention to 21

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry, but we don’t live in a theocracy.

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you are still claiming “god’s law trumps man’s law”: Why does your god never enforce what’s allegedly his law?

          • Christine smith

            He gave you the 10 commandments .Follow them. What would be the purpose of “giving them” to you. Its up to you to follow them or not.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Who gave you 10 commandments? God? How do you know? Were you there?

            -If not, how do you know these were not written by some control-freak human (like you) back in the day?

            -Even if you somehow knew this was god’s word (which you don’t), why blindly follow them UNLESS you wholeheartedly agree with them? Do you always obey without question anything anyone tells you to do? If not, why do you obey “god” without question?

          • Christine smith

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
            strong belief or trust in someone or something. : belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs. : a system of religious beliefs. plural faiths
            ‎Unfaith – ‎Good faith – ‎Animal faith – ‎Article of faith. It’s called faith

          • Christine smith

            I wholeheartedly agree with them

          • Suba gunawardana

            In that case can you answer my previous question? i.e.

            If you follow “thou shalt not kill” to the letter, why do you kill
            animals and plants for food? You should follow the bible & starve to
            death.

          • Christine smith

            Another ……..wtf!

          • Suba gunawardana

            I take it you are stumped & have no answers? No surprise there. No bible-thumpers EVER do.

          • Christine smith

            If scotus made a law that everyone must jump off the Brooklyn bridge ,would you ? Too funny……….but it’s the lawwwww

          • Suba gunawardana

            You never answered my question. Is it OK to kill a rapist to protect your body?

            If No: You are obviously condoning rape.

            If Yes: What’s wrong with killing a zef to protect your body? They invade your body without consent, just like a rapist does.

          • Christine smith

            This ones too funny!

          • kitler

            This question is not difficult.

            Are you incapable, intellectually, of answering rationally?

          • Suba gunawardana

            I take it you CANNOT give a yes or no answer? I wonder why….

          • fiona64

            And what makes you so certain that Lady Black (or anyone here, for that matter), has destroyed *anything*?

          • lady_black

            If I don’t want it in my body, it goes. Get over yourself.

          • JamieHaman

            Same right to destroy an embryo as to destroy a cancer growing in my body. My health care, my decision.

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you “speak for the child”, you should put your money where your mouth is.

            What happens to the children you force into birth against the will of their mothers? Who provides the love, care, protection and resources those children needs for the next 18 years or more? You?

            If Yes: How many children have you adopted so far, and if you manage to ban abortion, can you adopt all the NEW children who would be left high & dry?

            If No: You have absolutely no business forcing other people’s unwanted children into life and abandoning them in a hostile world. That is not “speaking for the child” but willful premeditated child abuse; i.e. speaking AGAINST the child.

          • Christine smith

            How many have you ?

          • Suba gunawardana

            I am not the one claiming to “speak for the unborn baaaaaybeees”.

            Have you put your money where your mouth is? Or are you in it ONLY to control women?

            From your response I gather it’s the latter.

          • kitler

            Apparently you can’t even speak for the ‘child’, as you are only capable of one word ‘troll’

            Grow the fuck up.

          • Arekushieru

            The consent of the violator is irrelevant. If that WERE the case, then only those rape victims whose rapists CONSENTED to their removal could defend themselves from rape. You people really have a sick obsession with non-consensual actions don’t you? Evil AND immoral.

          • Christine smith

            “Consented to their removal”.. Huh? I don’t compare abortion to rape

          • Arekushieru

            Good, because they are not the same. Someone with even a MODICUM of intelligence would have understood that I was comparing forced pregnancy and forced sex (iow, rape), however. Oi, is this a typical response from your ilk? Making absurd extrapolations from something you, yourself, said, when you’ve lost the main plot? I guess that’s one way of knowing when someone has lost the debate…. No?

          • Christine smith

            Lol

          • Arekushieru

            Such wisdom and clearly detailed explanations you’ve used to defend yourself. But what else can one expect from such dull witted people as the anti-choice brigade?

          • redlemon

            My child took away the use of my gallbladder. Maybe not the most important organ of my body, but it still was surgically taken out, caused a lot of pain, and screwed up some parts of my digestion for the rest of my life. Maybe not “stealing” my gallbladder, but sure as heck ruined it.

          • purrtriarchy

            Youre still a selfish bloodthirsty killer!!

            There is this horrible person on SPL who keeps insisting that anyone who does not wish to risk death/disability from pregnancy is “the most selfish” and, as mentioned previously, a bloodthirsty murderer.

            Just all kinds of wtf???

            Yet they don’t apply this reasoning to ANY OTHER SITUATION where a life could be saved.

          • redlemon

            I shall hug my daughter tonight and tell her that I am a bloodthirsty murderer. Well, not really.

            Still, I had a relatively uncomplicated pregnancy in most respects and it was hell on earth. I still have a hard time eating non-breaded, plain chicken on salad because it brings back memories of the last two months of pregnancy. Gestational diabetes and gallstones. No carbs, no fat, no dairy, no eggs. I remember looking at no-fat butter in the store and wondering what had I become for even considering such a purchase. (As a side note, don’t buy no-fat butter unless you REALLY need butter taste)

          • purrtriarchy

            Glad to see you here BTW.

            LJF commentariat = top notch.

          • redlemon

            No problem, when these things catch my eye I have a great surge of anger and compulsion to jump in.

            Also, I had a nice little break in Germany so I’m all refreshed.

          • lady_black

            Yes. With one caveat. There are no “children” in wombs. The blastocyst implants itself, and proceeds to tap into the mother’s blood vessel. It then suppresses her immune system and TAKES what it needs from her blood, and if there is insufficient intake, it will rob calcium from her bones and teeth. It’s not simply in there “chilling” and waiting to be born.

          • Christine smith

            Yes ,you are right “there are no children in the womb” abortion takes care of that

          • Jennifer Starr

            All children have been born.

          • lady_black

            Silly.

          • Suba gunawardana

            And what’s wrong with that again? :)

          • JamieHaman

            Wow, you’ve clearly never had a baby. You have no fucking idea.

          • kitler

            Give suba a yes or no answer

          • Christine smith

            Troll

          • kitler

            so you are incapable of answering a straightforward question?

            i thought you were here to have an intellectual debate?

            what, not up to the task?

          • Christine smith

            Yesterday’s news troll .move on

          • Suba gunawardana

            No, you have NOT managed to answer a simple yes or no question. That means your whole philosophy is false.

          • Christine smith

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
            Jump to Background and definitions – In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by …
            ‎Troll (disambiguation) – ‎Sockpuppet – ‎Nikki Catsouras photographs …

          • kitler

            This is a discussion board, sweetie.

            That means, we engage in intellectual debate. We present logical arguments, and ask one another *questions*

            Clearly, you are utterly incapable of answering the questions put to you. So you engage in what is known as an ‘ad hominen’ attack which is a logical fallacy – you can’t answer the question, so you insult your opponent instead.

            But by all means, continue making a fool of yourself. You’re too dimwitted to even realize how silly and childish you look.

            Why don’t you go sit at the kids table and leave the adults alone?

          • Christine smith

            Troll

          • kitler

            Explain, please, in detail, how exactly I am *trolling*

            Trying to get you to uh, discuss a subject intelligently isn’t exactly trolling now is it? The purpose of trolling is to fuck shit up – I just want you to participate by ANSWERING A SIMPLE QUESTION.

            How exactly is that trolling?

          • Christine smith

            Troll

          • kitler

            Enjoy sitting at the kids table, little child.

          • Christine smith

            Troll and flagged

          • kitler

            Not gonna do any good. The mods can see that YOU are trolling, cupcake.

            Have a nice day.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s throwing a tantrum now–I think someone went without a nap yesterday.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Defining “troll” does NOT answer my yes or no question.

            Or did you mean to say you are here simply to spread discord? So you do admit that your whole philosophy is false?

          • purrtriarchy

            Yes. All human. Even the cells in your rectum are human.
            The rectum you are speaking out of.

          • Christine smith

            The answer is yes ? Correct? It does not matter what the law says. By your own admission ,you are sanctioning the act of murder

          • purrtriarchy

            So every time you brush your teeth you are sanctioning the act of murder because the cells that are sloughed off ARE HUMAN.

          • Christine smith

            Are you saying the cells that are “sloughed have somehow managed to unite with a sperm or ovary?

          • purrtriarchy

            You are.

            You have stated that human = person. Every cell in your body is human.

          • Christine smith

            No, you said that .

          • purrtriarchy

            You asked if zefs were human. They are. BUT SO IS EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY. EVERYHING IS MADR OF HUMAN DNA AND HAS 46 CHROMOSONES.

            The point, you moron, is that “human” as the marker for personhood is insufficient.

          • Christine smith

            Does a cell grow in to a human? Doesn’t it have to have another component in order to grow into a human?

          • purrtriarchy

            If human cells are not “human” then please tell us *what* they are?

          • lady_black

            An ovary is an organ that serves multiple physiological functions. Nothing “unites” with an ovary.

          • fiona64

            Oh, lord. Somehow I missed that one.

            Definitely homeschooled.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, and there’s even an earlier post where she talks about the penis meeting the ovary.

          • fiona64

            Wow. This is the post where I talk about my head meeting the desk.

            WTF is *wrong* with people? Seriously, is basic biology no longer taught?

          • redlemon

            If the penis is meeting the ovary, or if anything unites with an ovary, I expect condolences on such a tragic accident. And maybe a sympathy card.

          • Suba gunawardana

            That would be true ONLY if killing a human (or human cells) was absolutely illegal under any circumstances. Is it? Think carefully for once.

          • JamieHaman

            No. Not human until birth. It certainly does matter what the law says. If you try to live by Biblical laws, you will go to jail.

          • fiona64

            Do you believe that a fetus is human ? Do you believe a pre born is
            human ? Do you believe an embryo is human ? Answer that first and I will
            tell you

            You don’t know much about viviparous vertebrates, do you?

            This link shows the embryos of several viviparous vertebrates at the same stage of development. You let us know how you did on the quiz, okay? And be honest … because most people pick the skink when they try to figure out which embryo is human. http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/embryo/embryoflash.html

          • Christine smith

            From conception to death . Egg meets sperm and it’s life .split the hairs all you want

          • purrtriarchy

            Then please explain hydatidiform moles – sperm meets egg.

            Also explain this:

            http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover
            Even if fertilization is successful, there will be no life if the egg is flawed in some way. Life begins with a good egg, you dimwit. Not with fertilization.

          • Christine smith

            My Thoughts Are Higher than Your Thoughts
            http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-my-thoughts-are-higher-than-your-thoughts.htm
            For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than … It’s a long fall off that high horse .God created science

          • kitler

            I will ask, again, please answer my questions, cupcake.

          • Christine smith

            You still don’t get it ? Your not all that high and mighty and neither. am I . Get back to the article Not a thing wrong with putting regulations in place

          • kitler

            That isn’t an answer.

          • Suba gunawardana

            God created science? Now as you know, modern medicine is a result of science. Surgical abortion is part of modern medicine.

            So obviously god created and approved of abortion. (Of course god loves abortion, considering the millions he performs himself).

            So by opposing abortion, aren’t you opposing GOD? Oh no!

          • Christine smith

            Fool

          • Suba gunawardana

            So you just agreed you’ve been opposing your god all this time?

          • Christine smith

            If I thought you had half a brain ,I would engage you.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Your opinion of me is totally irrelevant. Your avoidance of questions is proof enough that my summation is correct, i.e. you now KNOW you have been opposing god all this time.

            Better run off & ask god’s forgiveness Christine, what with him being a vindictive little prick & all, no telling what he’d do to those who oppose him….. :)

          • JamieHaman

            Not everyone is Christian. Freedom is doing things legally that other people simply do not like..
            Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM other people’s religion.
            Neither God nor Jesus is going to hold YOU accountable for what some one else does.
            He will hold you accountable for the thing he commanded, that you failed to do.
            Not everyone is Christian. Bring a better argument.

          • Christine smith

            Science says life begins when a full compliment of chromosomes is present. You know fertilization? This happens happens 4-6weeks before implantation,so anything you use to terminate this distinct set of chromosomes ,terminates the existence of an embryo and kills the baby.gotta love science!

          • kitler

            Well, if all it takes is the right number of chromosomes, then, according to Christine:

            Down syndrome = not a person

            Skin cell = a person

            Species of deer with 46 chromosomes = a person.

            You twit.

          • Christine smith

            How kind of you.Thankyou for the compliment.the zygote is composed of human DNA and other “human “molecules ,so it’s nature is undeniably human and not some other species .the “human”zygote has a genetic composition that is unique from itself ,different from any other human including the mother .science just disproved the claim that what’s involved in abortion is merely “a woman and her body .hey ,that’s science .

          • kitler

            So?

          • Christine smith

            You have a great night there . We are all done here on this thread:)

          • Suba gunawardana

            Who’s “we”? Speak for yourself :)

          • Suba gunawardana

            So what if it’s a life? As you know, no human can exist without killing.

            By merely existing you constantly break the commandment “thou shalt not kill” (with which you claim to wholeheartedly agree).

          • Christine smith

            Wtf? BIZARE !

          • Suba gunawardana

            It would behoove you to NOT advertise how dense you are.

          • Christine smith

            Bone head!

          • Suba gunawardana

            No need to describe yourself, just answer my questions…. :)

          • Christine smith

            If you had a brain,you would be dangerous

          • Suba gunawardana

            So now you are admitting you are a killer?

            I notice whenever you learn a truth about yourself you start screaming insults at others. :)

          • Christine smith

            :)

          • Christine smith

            My whittle darling suba Doozy do ,you having a PROBLEM with “insults “are you ?

          • Suba gunawardana

            At least you spelled a couple of words correctly this time. However, you still don’t manage to make a valid point, or even a valid insult. Try again, and keep at that vocabulary….

          • Christine smith

            Oh scooby doozie do… Stop your whining!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Almost all words spelled correct, albeit a short sentence. You might yet learn something, although your biblical knowledge is beyond abysmal, & beyond repair……

          • fiona64

            You picked the skink, didn’t you?

          • Christine smith

            The zygote is composed of human DNA and other human molecules Its nature is undeniably human and not some other species. The new human zygote has a genetic composition that is absolutely unique from itself different from any other human that ever existed,including the mother! That disproves the claim that what is involved in abortion is “merely ” a women and her body.

          • fiona64

            The zygote is composed of human DNA

            So is a tumor. Should someone be forced to leave it in situ because it has human DNA?

            You need to come back when you’ve learned about the function of the umbilicus.

            Thanks for admitting, in a backhanded way, that you did not pick the human embryo in the quiz. I didn’t think you would.

          • lady_black

            Human embryos and fetuses are human. “An embryo” or “a fetus” can be of any viviparous vertebrate species. Whether we are dealing with a human embryo or fetus is of no consequence to the question of what murder means. Abortion doesn’t qualify. It’s never qualified. Even when illegal, abortion is still abortion.

          • Christine smith

            Do you believe their “children think their murderers?

          • kitler

            Nope. Many of the pro choice women here have kids and those kids are pro choice too.

          • kitler

            Troll.

          • Ella Warnock

            i don’t care what you personally believe about anything. I’m ‘handling’ the SCOTUS decision just fine, thanks. You seem to be under the mistaken idea that anything you say is ‘upsetting’ to me; however, if that’s how you want to entertain yourself, well, more power to ya. Narcissists do seem to think others care far more about what they think than anyone actually does.

          • Christine smith

            Funny ,you didn’t mention the buffer zone . See you on that thread Ella

          • Ella Warnock

            Mention what about it? What would you like me to say? Oh, you’re just baiting. Sorry, I don’t play that. Ah, I think I see the problem here, SCOTUS is the supreme court. I did indeed mention it.

          • fiona64

            “Nasty” is an adjective, not a noun. Therefore, it cannot be pluralized.

            Definitely homeschooled.

          • purrtriarchy

            Ella “nasties” Warnock!

          • Ella Warnock

            ‘Kitler.’ ;->

          • kitler
          • fiona64

            The only nerve you’re hitting is the one that causes me to wince when people cannot construct an intelligent sentence to save their lives.

          • lady_black

            Well, judging by this post, you took our advice to get a child to write your post for you. Either that or you sobered up.

          • Christine smith

            Actually ,it doesn’t suck I involve myself in everything and anything that pertains to life . Laws ,petitions you name it .I’m your biggest nightmare. And a lot of progress is being made in these last couple of years . So you can “get mad until your glad”

          • Ella Warnock

            No, you’re not. Not even close, but it is amusing that you puff up your own ‘importance’ to that degree.

          • goatini

            An illiterate nitwit bible literalist is a “nightmare” only because my tax dollars paid to educate it, and I got less than nothing in return.

          • Shan

            Amen, sister.

          • fiona64

            I am just about 100 percent sure that she was homeschooled by fundies.

          • Christine smith

            I’ll tell you what your tax dollars paid for. The next pro life success story .The supreme courts ruling on the buffer zone . This ought to be good ! See you on that thread .

          • goatini

            Only to a vicious hateful radical theocratic misogynist forced-birth advocate would stalking, harassment and intimidation, with the express intent of forcing an innocent patient into gestational slavery, would that be a “success story”. You are pure evil.

          • Christine smith

            I knew this would be good

          • Christine smith

            Uh ha

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you are truly against abortion, shouldn’t you be busy getting tax dollars to pay for all contraception & sex-education?
            Breeding is not the only alternative to abortion you know.

          • lady_black

            That ruling is unfortunate. Do not make the mistake of believing that makes you impervious to injury.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Whose life?

          • cjvg

            Ah, wonderful the busy body who runs the HOA on her street is here

          • Shan

            “I’m your biggest nightmare.”

            Wow. Think a lot of yourself?

          • Christine smith

            ” I’m your biggest nightmare ” I say that as someone being pro life will do everything I can to promote life . The ” nightmare ” being someone like yourself that opposes my aggressive stance on this issue (as you posted ) hates what i do . That’s the nightmare

          • Suba gunawardana

            So how many victims are you prepared to kill in your effort to “promote life”?

          • Shan

            So what exactly DO you do to “promote life” other than post online?

          • lady_black

            I’d bet a shiny new nickel that you have done *nothing* to promote life. You can’t even master your first language.

          • lady_black

            You aren’t MY worst nightmare, honey. Make abortion illegal and I’ll be there making sure women still have options. There are many of us. Jane will rise again.

          • fiona64

            The only reason you’re a nightmare to anyone is that you are so bloody, delightedly, willfully ignorant.

          • JamieHaman

            Maybe Christine thinks you’re in a foxhole. smh

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, if I am and I get shot, maybe it won’t KILL kill me DEAD dead.

          • JamieHaman

            rotflmao! Only partly dead, not dead dead DEAD.

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s just a flesh wound!

          • Shan

            LOL!

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry, but this post makes no sense whatsoever. You clearly have no understanding of basic human biology if you believe that an oxygen-deprived fetus at 14 weeks’ gestational age (as was the situation in the Munoz case) is even remotely viable.

            I ask this in all sincerity: were you homeschooled?

          • A. T.

            I lol’d. I’m not sure all our medical advancements are always a good, such as in that case.

          • Christine smith

            22weeks at the time

          • fiona64

            Nope. 14 weeks at the time she actually died … and 22 by the time the ghouls in Texas were forced to disconnect her decomposing corpse from life support. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2014/02/12/brain-dead-and-pregnant-why-one-baby-was-born-and-one-wasnt/

            Facts really are not your strong suit, are they?

          • goatini

            America is not a theocracy, and NO religion or so-called”Holy Book” of said religions trumps the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice.

          • Christine smith

            God s word trumps all laws . Your mistaken sorry

          • fiona64

            My mistaken sorry what?

            Lrntogrammarplskthxbye.

          • goatini

            MEN wrote the bible, the koran, and the talmud. The so-called “holy books” of the misogynistic, patriarchal desert cults were written by MEN. “God” had ZERO to do with it.

          • Shan

            Yeah, take that to the SCOTUS and see how it works.

          • Christine smith

            Talking about morality here not law

          • goatini

            And since you are completely amoral in your desire to strip female US citizens of their inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice, you have no leg to stand on as regards “morality”.

          • Shan

            I don’t care about your morality, only the law.

          • lady_black

            Morality is subjective and Christians don’t have a monopoly on it.

          • Suba gunawardana

            How do we even know what god’s word is? God is certainly not here to ascertain it or enforce it.
            Furthermore, if god’s word does trumps all laws, and abortion goes on, that means god must approve of abortion, right?

          • Christine smith

            How do we know what Gods word is ? The bible (if you believe) God does not approve of abortion and there are may evils in society that God leaves to man to correct. Psalm 94:20-21 .

          • Suba gunawardana

            -The bible was written by a bunch of men who wished to subjugate women.

            -If god doesn’t approve of abortion, why does he let it go on? Being “all-powerful” couldn’t he stop abortion anytime and “save the babies”?

            -If god doesn’t approve of abortion, why does he commit millions of abortions himself. in the form of miscarriages?

          • cjvg

            Uh, do you know where you are and in which century?

          • lady_black

            Not here in the USA, it doesn’t. If you want a government by “god” then move to Iran. We don’t roll that way in the USA. First amendment, baby. Ring any bells?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Kool. Jehovah loves abortion.

          • fiona64

            Her mistaken sorry *what*?

            Again, learn grammar. I beg of you … learn grammar.

          • Suba gunawardana

            As I asked many times: Why does god never enforce “his word”? If god is against abortion, why does he never stop it? Why does he perform millions of abortions on his own?

            Perhaps god LOVES abortion. Ever thought of that? :)

          • fiona64

            I’m not God ,but the good book will tell you everything you need to know
            of the MIND of God and YES I do know the mind of God in this abortion
            matter

            Oh, good. So you’re aware, then, that in Numbers 5 a woman is forced to consume an abortifacient.

          • Christine smith

            Old Testament ,doesn’t fly remember Jesus came

          • Jennifer Starr

            Convenient cop-out.

          • Christine smith

            Prove it

          • Jennifer Starr

            By simply saying that the Old Testament doesn’t count, you conveniently avoid having to answer any pesky questions about it. But I’m betting you’ve used the phrase “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” before.

          • goatini

            The burden of “proof” is on YOU.

          • Christine smith

            Your the unbeliever not me .i don’t have to prove anything to you .your an athiest ,I’m not .I know what I believe .i not out to change an atheists mind . You get to live with your beliefs I get to live with mine .its funny, you keep posting me thinking you can convince me of your atheism .wont work so it’s time to shut it down . Your getting nowhere fast.

          • goatini

            Ahem. First, I’m not an atheist, and second, if you come here positing that your beliefs are “facts”, then the burden of proof is upon YOU.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So are you admitting you believe something blindly without proof?

          • Christine smith

            Yes it’s called faith “being sure of what we hope for ,and certain of what we do not see.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Even with mountains of evidence to the contrary. Isn’t that willful blindness?

          • cjvg

            YOU came here to a pro-choice pro reproductive equality site and started lecturing us and we are the ones attempting to “convince” you?

            You are like the Jehovah witness badgering people at their own house

            Just because you like to spout blithering nonsense that does not mean we are obligated to go along with it

          • Shan

            “You are like the Jehovah witness badgering people at their own house”

            Too bad we don’t have the equivalent of answering the door naked.

          • cjvg

            I have a “wild” black pig (she even has a razor back and puts it up when surprised or curious) i raised up, that usually means they won’t even make it to the door when she is lose.

          • Shan

            Yeah, I think that right there would keep me from answering the door naked.

          • cjvg

            Oh, she is quite cuddly once she knows you.
            Hmm, now i think about it that is probably even more reason not to open the door naked

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Stop pretending all religious folks and/or Christians are opposed to medical abortion. That is a lie.

          • fiona64

            It took me a couple of minutes to parse your grammar-free word salad.

            First, you assume that anyone who is not a Bible-thumping ignoramus like you must be an atheist. I doubt seriously that you have ever studied the Bible in earnest, because I doubt your ability to read it in the original language. Some of us here ::ahem:: are able to do exactly that.

            Second, you assume that your beliefs should constitute law in this secular nation. Allow me to disabuse you of that notion. The only times religion are mentioned in the Constitution (twice), the terms are *exclusionary.* That big word means that religion can’t be brought into the argument when it comes to law.

            Third, and finally, if you would like to live somewhere that religious beliefs constitute law, there are several places on the planet where you may do so. Afghanistan comes immediately to mind.

          • purrtriarchy

            You come across like an idiot.

          • Christine smith

            Blatant view point discrimination

          • purrtriarchy

            Your fact free, logic free, and grammar free posts suggest otherwise.

          • Christine smith

            As you wish

          • lady_black

            Really, Christine. If you wish to be taken seriously, you must make at least an effort to appear educated. Your grammar is atrocious. Like it or not, that comes across as the effort of a third-grader. Your viewpoint is one thing. Your posts are so horrible it’s difficult to even read them. It’s not elite snobbery. Malcolm X (a self-educated man) recognized the need to master language to increase his personal and political power. Take the hint.

          • goatini

            2000+ year old writings by MEN, of misogynistic, patriarchal superstitions, have ZERO to do with the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice.

          • Shan

            Propose something that could go to the courts that doesn’t involve the Old Testament.

          • Christine smith

            No comprende’

          • Shan

            Of course not.

          • fiona64

            Quelle surprise.

          • cjvg

            Sure, lets go there and maybe you can explain why you are ignoring your own Jesus’s commands also.

            Having to shout to religion into others faces is rude and obnoxious. Your jesus said that faith was to be a private thing, so why are you using it as a virtual baseball bat to slug people with?
            Reread Luke 5:16
            But he would withdraw to desolate places and pray.

            You are holding out your self-proclaimed “religiousness” for all to see, and claim to speak for your god and jesus. All in direct contradiction of his words, again!
            Matthew 6:1-34
            “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

            Matthew 6:5
            “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

            Matthew 6:6
            But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you

            Matthew 6:7
            “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

            And of course there is that little tidbit about judging others and throwing stones! Oh and the do not condemn others part too, something you have been quite busy with
            Matthew 7:1-5
            “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

            James 4:12
            There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

            Romans 2:1-3
            Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

            And then there is the fact that jesus specifically instructed Christians to be nice to those who are NOT Christians, not exactly what you have been displaying here.
            Mathew 5: 43 – 47
            Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

            Yes i was raised religious, you and the multitude of “Christians” like you who ignore every single word the bible states and only have a use for it when it can be repurposed to hurt and belittle people are what convinced me your god does not exist!

          • Christine smith

            I’m afraid you put far too much effort in to convincing people of your biblical prowess. .jesus never said religion is a private thing .prove it .

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you wish to cram your religion down everyone’s throat, you should at least get it right….

          • Christine smith

            Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. (Matthew 9:12)

          • Suba gunawardana

            That’s right, you need some therapy for your mind, which doesn’t seem to work….

          • Christine smith

            Jesus is waiting. He’s looking at you with love and he wants to pour his mercy on you. He wants to bring you into his freedom. Imagine how the Pharisees’ response must have saddened him. And imagine his joy when any one of us follows Matthew’s example and welcomes him with open arms!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Jesus was a good man but he is dead and gone, crucified along with a bunch of other politicians by god’s children, while god sat around & watched his son being tortured. What a “loving” father, huh?

            And why do you worship that creep again? Oh that’s right, you are a promoter of incest & child abuse, just like your god.

          • Christine smith

            Imagine how much untapped blessing we can close ourselves off from just because we are afraid to admit our needs. Or because we’re too self-conscious to let other people, like our confessor, see our weakness. Or because we don’t feel we’re worthy of God’s lavish love. Don’t let this happen!

          • Suba gunawardana

            How selfish are you that your only concern is “getting blessings for ourselves” when there are billions of living beings SUFFERING out there being tortured by your god?
            How about getting off your butt & HELPING those in need, alleviating some of the suffering caused by your god?

          • Christine smith

            What tremendous love God has for us! What an amazing promise he has made: “As Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4).
            See the thing is sub a,he’s not dead and gone!

          • Suba gunawardana

            So where is he? Why isn’t he helping the billions of children tortured & killed by his father god?
            Is Jesus against abortion? Then why isn’t he stopping abortion?

          • Christine smith

            He gave us that job.and that’s exactly what I’m doing! There is a Master Plan you know .

          • Suba gunawardana

            Who gave you what job?
            -God told you to promote child abuse, so you are doing that? Or,
            -Jesus told you to help the children his tortured by his father, and you are neglecting to do that?

            Either way, if god/Jesus are all-powerful, why do they need anyone else to do their job?

          • Christine smith

            Hey suba maybe it’s time for you to read the bible ,oh I mean study the bible.we are all done here .have a great evening :)

          • Suba gunawardana

            Why would I study the bible when you single-handedly proved how useless it is? You claim to have studied the bible but cannot answer a single question.

          • cjvg

            For gods sake could you at least pretend to read the reply’s I’ve made. The quotes from your bible CLEARLY state that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Christine smith

            Prove it

          • Suba gunawardana

            Who cares what Jesus said? He is not here to assert it, and obviously you cannot prove if Jesus said anything at all.

          • fiona64

            What’s the matter, sweetie? Don’t know your own Bible?

            Matthew 6:6.

          • Christine smith

            No darling lovely, Matthew 28:19 and mark 26:15 praying to the Father is between you and him about whats in your heart.about what he wants to say to you. . of Gods salvation .he ask all believers to tell the world honey !

          • fiona64

            So, you don’t know your scriptures at all. That’s what I thought.

          • Christine smith

            Oh lovey kins! Truth, doesn’t become you.

          • fiona64

            I think you need to have your medication adjusted; nothing you are writing makes any sense. For example, you wrote Truth, doesn’t become you. in response to me writing So, you don’t know your scriptures at all. That’s what I thought.

            So, telling the truth, as I did (and as you admit with your response) does not become *me*?

            Lady, believe me, it is far more unbecoming to pretend to have expertise in scripture that you clearly do not comprehend.

          • Christine smith

            Let’s go “lady “

          • fiona64

            Let’s go “lady” what? Your random clause makes no sense.

            You may wish to try taking a remedial English course at your local community college so that you are able to write in a fashion that will permit people to comprehend you.

          • Christine smith

            Oh dear ! Miss Fiona doesn’t like the pet names now? Awww! Too bad .”do unto others ,as you would have them to do unto you” how do you like it ?

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you’ve just proven that you don’t know your Bible verses. You’ve proven that Fiona is right.

          • Suba gunawardana

            .”do unto others ,as you would have them to do unto you”??

            Does that mean you want others to stop taking their meds & act like blithering idiots for your entertainment? Sorry that’s a tall order, but thanks for “doing unto others” anyway….

          • Christine smith

            :)

          • Christine smith

            It seems your having badddddd day!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Does it make you happy to imagine I am having a bad day?

          • Christine smith

            No for real Subac ,I wish you a very blessed day. As nasty as you are on this thread, you do have a heart! Peace sister!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Blessed by whom? As you know your god isn’t available to bless anyone because he is too busy killing babies.

          • Christine smith

            Goodnight Suba.

          • fiona64

            It’s cute how you upvote your own posts, sweetie.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; yet again you are writing things that are completely non-responsive. I ask this in all sincerity; do you have some sort of developmental delay? Because that is the only explanation I have for your bizarre replies.

          • Suba gunawardana

            She could be off her meds, or maybe ON meds she isn’t supposed to be… :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think that Christine must have been homeschooled by idiots.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Actually Christine already admitted she has no knowledge of the bible, and has openly acted against her god by opposing abortion. Didn’t you Christine?

          • fiona64

            What amazes me is that she (and her little friend Thomas) apparently thinks her inanities are profound. I am beginning to suspect some sort of, well, to use the legal term, mental defect.

          • kitler

            I have noticed that, with pro liars, the bar is set very low. No matter how stupid or offensive your prose, as long as you are on the same side they will cheer for you.

          • fiona64

            And call said inane remarks “well-reasoned.”

          • kitler

            Speaking of which, Myintx is driving everybody crazy over at The Friendly Atheist.

            Her latest lie is that the woman’s body FREELY GIVES nutrients and whatnot to the zef. Apparently the zef does not even attach to a maternal blood vessel – it doesn’t need to – because the woman’s body just magically ‘feeds’ it somehow.

          • fiona64

            There are not enough ::facepalms:: in the world.

          • Christine smith

            I guess you don’t remember that one .of course you wouldn’t respond.

          • fiona64

            You are not making any sense.

            Again.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That would necessitate being able to read, and Christine can’t do that.

          • fiona64

            She probably thinks the scriptures were conveniently delivered in every-day English via the “Good News” version of the Bible … or whatever picture book version she uses.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A picture book would be about all she could handle. As long as someone explained it to her.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Who is the world honey?

          • Christine smith

            You don’t play dumb very well.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So God wants you to tell the world about honey.

          • Christine smith

            Yeah ,yeah that’s the ticket .yeah ,you got it.

          • fiona64

            I thought it was “Blessed are the cheesemakers.” /MP reference

            Is it “Blessed are the beekeepers? ;->

          • fiona64

            And you don’t “play” dumb at all. :-D

          • Christine smith
          • Christine smith

            “But he would withdraw to a desolate place to pray”. Jesus prayed to the Father quietly ,privately ,to listen and obey and show us about a personal relationship we could also have. Matthew 6:1-34 … Is talking about people that give and brag to anyone they see ,how generous they are.” The reward they receive is the crowd praising them for their generosity.not Gods reward. Matthew7:1-5 ……is talking about, love the sinner ,hate the sin .my judgment is on the issue of abortion ,not the women and men and people like yourself that promote the death of innocence. Matthew 5 :43-47….. 100% yes on that! All humans Christian and non Christians ,as yourself are guilty of that. If you look back in your posts you’ll see quite a difference between your exchange and mine .i do pray for all hearts to be changed on the pro choice side..just a side note look back and see how you speak to people .you might think you can hide behind cyberspace ,and no one is watching .their is Someone watching! Just because you don’t believe does not give you a free pass to respond in your post so angry and hatefully

          • lady_black

            Jesus never mentioned abortion. NOT EVEN ONCE.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I’m so glad you brought up Jesus. Here’s everything Jesus ever said about abortion, all in one convenient location: ” ”

            Abortion was known and practiced during Biblical times, sweetie. You might want to visit a place called crackafrigginbook.com and learn more.

          • Christine smith

            Oh so Jesus brought up abortion ? Brilliant , a biblical expert

          • fiona64

            You aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed. Did you see the big, fat NOTHING between the quotation marks?

            Jesus never said anything about abortion .. despite it being known and practice during biblical times.

            I am given to understand that many people with reading problems are helped by a game called “Hooked on Phonics.” You may wish to look into that.

          • Suba gunawardana

            If god is against abortion why does he never lift a finger to stop them? Isn’t god supposed to be all-powerful?
            Also if god is against abortion why does he perform so many abortions himself, in the form of miscarriage?

          • lady_black

            Now how would you know the “mind of ‘god’ on abortion?” There are a couple mentions of abortion, and none of them are prohibitions. Jesus never said word one about abortion, and it was widely practiced during his time. And don’t you dare mention that hideous, grave-robbing, Frankenstein experiment in Texas that didn’t save even ONE life. That was totally and completely wrong.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It is blasphemy to teach the Bible when you know nothing about the Bible and have not read it.

            Jehovah loves abortion and recommends it as a tool of genocidal war. Hosea 13:16. And loves it as a tool of social control of women see the Sotah passages in Numbers 5:11-31.

          • Christine smith

            No it’s not blasphemy .you have no clue as to what your talking about .

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have every clue.

          • Christine smith

            Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. (Matthew 9:12)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Sometimes I need a physician when I am well to stay well. You live with biblical medicine. I will save France.

          • fiona64

            Abortions are hardly new. It’s been around for centuries.

            Sid has informed me that abortion didn’t exist thousands of years ago. And, of course, since he is a PROFESSIONAL with DEGREES (or so he claims), he must be right. /snark

            Yep … abortion has been going on since before recorded history … and will continue to do so.

          • lady_black

            Well of COURSE it did. There was a certain plant that was so good at getting the job done, the plant went extinct. It was called Silphium, I think.

          • fiona64

            Yep, silphium was one method. Here’s the link that I used to silence Sid’s assertion that ABORTION DIDN’T EXIST BACK THEN (that’s a quote, BTW, caps and all). http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/When-Did-Abortion-Begin.htm

          • JamieHaman

            Thank you for sharing the link, and the name of the plant, I didn’t know specifics for either, just generalizations.

          • cjvg

            Abortion is described (as well as proscribed) in the bible, so it is at least 2 thousand years old, unless he is now willing to admit that the bible is just make belief?!

            Numbers 5 : god instructs Moses to have a priest give a pregnant woman an abortion inducing potion because her jealous husband is not sure the child is his”

          • fiona64

            The highest percentage of abortions are you college age girls .

            Actually, the highest percentage of abortions are performed for women in their late 20s to early 30s, who are married with at least one child already in the home. You might want to learn a few things.

            Oh, and as no woman is required to disclose the reason she seeks an abortion, your rape/incest percentage (which you made up out of whole cloth anyway) is a steaming pile of bullshit.

            Stats on rape/sexual assault: http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=317
            Stats on abortion: https://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/abortion-US/statsandfacts.html

            You’re (note correct usage) welcome.

          • Shan

            “The highest percentage of abortions are you college age girls . CONVIENCE is the main reason for abortion”

            So? How do you propose making all THAT not happen?

          • Suba gunawardana

            And what’s wrong with convenience?

          • fiona64

            They want to make it sound like a woman goes, “Hmm. I’m getting my nails done, and there’s a clinic right around the corner. Since I’m in the neighborhood, I think I’ll get an abortion.” Only morons buy into this nonsense.

          • cjvg

            Uh, no
            Some of us actually received a very good education that was more then sufficient in explaining biological and medical sciences. It also included a information about a plethora of contraceptives for both sexes and how and why they work. As well as in which circumstance their effectiveness might be compromised

          • fiona64

            Redacted because I’m an idiot. :-)

          • purrtriarchy

            fiona, I think you got the wrong person

            though, perhaps cjvg needs to be taken down a notch :P :)

          • fiona64

            Oh, ugh. Thank you.

          • cjvg

            Aaaw, you hurt my feelings, I think i’ll throw a tantrum now.
            Just give me a minute I have to ask 5×5 about the most impressive way to have a massive toe trample objection

          • purrtriarchy

            :p

          • cjvg

            Wait ,I’am not ready yet. This is going to be an epic one

          • purrtriarchy

            The good news is, I can now access the data on my crashed ssd hard drive, so that means I can show your eeg essay to the ignoramus who said thatscientists are incapable of measuring fetal sentience.

          • kitler

            Hey cj, how are you feeling after your surgery?

            And this dude asked a question, regarding your coma essay:

            http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/06/the-imago-dei-or-why-should-secularists.html#comment-1461443528

          • cjvg

            Sorry I was out of town for a bit (short vacation in the Bahamas’)

            I’m doing well. I took a brief look at the question iof that dude and basically what he is doing is attempting to confuse the issue.

            A “coma” patient who’s part of the brain has damage in the area that houses sentience to the point that they no longer register as having any activity there would be in fact brain dead, think terri schiavo.

            These “coma” patients that he is discussing will never recover and are in fact no better then beating hearth cadavers. When I have some more time I will post a full response to him.

          • kitler

            Thanks youre a sweetie.

          • kitler

            He is in effect answering his own question by admitting it depends on
            the type of coma and severity of damage and them merrily continues to
            contend that all coma patients are the same (insinuating that they have
            the same capacity to sentience and recovery) and therefore non sentient
            fetus’s have the same rights as comas patients who can not possibly
            recover.

            Yes and as I recall, even in cases where people ‘really don’t know’ what will happen with the coma patient, life support can STILL be withdrawn, and often is.

          • kitler

            Sorry I was out of town for a bit (short vacation in the Bahamas’)

            Nice! You missed out on the week-of-the-hystrionic-idiot here at RHRC.

            Glad you’re back!

            Have fun?

          • cjvg

            Thanks.

            It was great, my parents in law both turned 80 this year and have been married for 55 years. All the kids (+grandkids, spouses etc.) rented a home and had a big family party.

            What happened was RHRC invaded by religious nuts, anti-choice nuts or MRA’s or all of the above? I read a very few articles on my blackberry when I was there but I guess I missed most

          • kitler

            RHRC was invaded by the idiots from AVFM and we also had an influx of RCC clones who lectured us on abstinence and accused us of being Nazis

          • fiona64

            ROFLOL … I wrote a long-winded rant because I misunderstood a) who was posting (because our latest idiot, Christine, had gotten right up my nose) and b), well, because reason a, LOL.

          • cjvg

            If done that, it is easy to misread a word or intention after you have gotten all p*ssed off by some idiot who believes that their personal (and completely illogical unsupported and anti-science and plain reason) opinion is the edict of the gods and we should all bow down in awe and wonder

          • cjvg

            Never saw it, I’m not always very good at reading reply’s right away

          • purrtriarchy

            Pregnancy maims and kills.

          • lady_black

            Abortion is neither “new” nor invented by the medical community. And it doesn’t matter for what reason. It’s none of your damned business.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Abortion has been for around about as long as pregnancy. Ditto for contraception.

          • fiona64

            Only difference is ,THEY have an out .that new thing the medical community came up with .its called abortion

            Not even remotely new. The first *recorded* description of abortion was in 1550 BCE. It was going on for a long time before that, sweetie.

          • Christine smith

            Lol

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s the truth, Christine.

          • fiona64

            You go ahead and laugh, dimwit. Unlike you, I *do* have facts on my side: http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/When-Did-Abortion-Begin.htm

          • Christine smith

            Lol ! It’s especially funny to think you taught me that .lololo

          • Jennifer Starr

            You were the one who called abortion a ‘new thing’, dimwit. Or do you not remember what you previously wrote?

          • fiona64

            What makes her look particularly mentally challenged is that I *quoted* her in the post to which she responded with her imbecilic mirth.

          • Christine smith

            You too Jennifer . Lolololo!

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you don’t remember what you previously wrote.

          • Christine smith

            Sarcasm – Merriam-Webster Online
            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm
            the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say especially in order to insult someone, to show irritation, or to be funny … Gullible . That’s what comes to mind .lol

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, I can see that much never comes into your mind at all.

          • fiona64

            I don’t think you’re capable of being taught anything. Tu es trop stupide pour apprendre.

      • feminista

        You should come here and support Thomas, he desperately needs your help:

        http://blog.secularprolife.org/2014/07/you-can-be-pro-life-and-pro.html#comment-1489020459

        Protect him from the RHRC feministas!

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I am outraged. Tell me how I ought to ‘outbreak.’

  • JamieHaman

    Really? Not in Texas they don’t have dirty clinics. And by federal law, any person who shows up at the ER is seen by a doctor for an emergency. Abortions are safer than childbirth too.

    • Christine smith

      Wow !read some of your past posts wow! You are all over the place .you can’t serve both sides . All or nothing girl. Go back to the good book for a while and you will get a clearer vision and understanding .have a great night

      • Guest

        Which good book? There are many.

        • Christine smith

          You know ,the number 1 seller. The one that continues to be on the “top of the list”

          • cjvg

            In Europe or in the middle east?

          • Christine smith

            World’s Best-Selling Book | King James Bible | Washington Times …
            communities.washingtontimes.com › Religion
            World’s Best-Selling Book … Did you ever wonder why there are so many Bible translations in English? … Published 9:13 p.m. November 1, 2012 – Comments. In the WHOLE world!

          • cjvg

            In the middle east the bible most certainly is NOT the number 1 best selling book. In fact in many middle eastern countries it barely is a blimp on the market. You are extremely ignorant and exceptionally arrogant and proud of said ignorance!

          • cjvg
      • JamieHaman

        Silly Chrstine, that’s what choice is all about. Choosing the option that works best for you in the situation you are in.
        Not the option that works best for someone else.

        • Christine smith

          Ah silly Jamie ,the key word and you said it best twice in your post,”YOU” tis a very “self absorbed world” isn’t it?

          • JamieHaman

            ‘You’ refers to someone else. Me is the word for self absorbed.
            No woman or 12 year old victim of incest can take care of someone else if she can’t take care of herself first.

          • Christine smith

            The “you ” thing ? You get my point .no use sugar coating. How does a 12 yr old take care of her self, when she is being secretly molested by a family member? That’s right abortion,hide the evidence so it can continue .no woman ? What’s that mean? Didn’t make sense

          • JamieHaman

            Work on those compassion skills Christine. While your’re at it go on and work on those reading and comprehension skills too. Women who are unable to keep a roof over their heads, keep feeding any other children, and themselves while they are pregnant, and post birth are unable to care for themselves. Doesn’t matter if they are married or not. Her income may be and frequently is what keeps families off of various social services. Those services are being cut regularly.
            Twelve year old girls should not have children nor be molested by dad, step dad, grandpa or uncle, nor a neighbor. The abortion in that situation is less damaging to her physically, than carrying that child to term.
            If we all worked harder at telling men and boys that no means no, instead of boys will be boys, there would be less of it. If our judicial system didn’t use ‘affluenza’ as an excuse to keep sexual criminals out of jail that would certainly help.
            You seem to value an unborn child more than the woman who carries that unborn child.
            That woman has a life. She has a fully developed heart beat. She is exposed to tremendous risks by carrying and delivering a child.
            I value that woman more than that unborn child. I value her ability to think and decide for herself what is the best way to proceed in her life. After all, God gave her a brain to use, He didn’t give you or I the right to judge, He keeps that for himself.
            Without a doubt if more women, both single and married had things like paid family leave, their would be more children born. The house payment/rent would not be the huge issue it is for so many families.
            Since we don’t have that paid family leave, I say we keep abortion safe, legal, and preferably rare.

          • Christine smith

            Interesting,so you admit it’s a “child” first off .then you mention “God” so you think God approves abortion as the cure for all the social ills you describe ,that have been around for eons? No “God ,does not approve of abortion to cure societies poor and marginalized .He asks humanity to to love and promote life,not end it because their a drain on the system.and A big loud yes as to God and judgment ? He gave man the right to judge “JUSTLY ”

          • Dez

            You do know that not all women are theists. Like me a lot of women are also atheist and do not appreciate you forcing your religious nonsense into our lives. I do not talk to my imaginary friend for reproductive and medical information. I use a doctor with degrees and decades of knowledge and experience in medicine.

          • Christine smith

            Hey nice of you to join in ,but this jamiehaman post and my reply to HER since she brought up the subject does not pertain to your .atheism is your problem ,not mine

          • Ella Warnock

            The way comments work is that anyone can comment to anyone they choose to. Oh, I get it, you’re one-a-them there control freaky freaks. I guess it would follow naturally from your worldview that your beliefs should control all of society that you would also think you can and should control the whole of the comments section.

            Oh dearie me, did I just inappropriately ‘join in?’ A thousand apologies as I genuflect.

          • Christine smith

            I have no interest in your atheism .the poster used the word God ,I responded .for you I scrape it off my feet

          • Dez

            I have no interest in your imaginary friend being pushed into the vaginas of other women. I have an interest in protecting women against religious fanatics like you that want to treat women like ignorant cattle. Sorry but it’s your magically thinking that stinks on the bottom over your feet.

          • Christine smith

            And I have an interest in protecting children in the womb against secular society who believes that killing life in the womb is just ,moral and right.. So how’s that that’s the beauty of America .we get to agree to disagree!

          • goatini

            No children involved. Children have already been born.

          • Dez

            No we can’t not agree as long as you think that your magical thinking gets to dictate how I live my life. Your morals are no more right than my morals. This is why we have the first amendment. You can believe your religious nonsense, but keep it in your life only.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, which god?

          • Ella Warnock

            I have no interest in your theism. Just your rabid anti-choice bigotry, which is unacceptable.

          • goatini

            The faith, or lack of same, in anyone else’s life, is NOT your concern. Matthew 7.3-5.

          • Christine smith

            An ATHIEST quoting from the bible . The quote is about judging people .my judgement is and has been on the issue of abortion ,not people

          • goatini

            I’m not an atheist. And learn to spell.

          • JamieHaman

            I am always amused at bible thumpers who automatically think that if you don’t agree with them 100% you MUST be an atheist! But then, I am sooo sooo very self absorbed too.
            Spelling, punctuation and lousy capitalization too.

          • cjvg

            Are you aware that those women who have or need abortions are in fact people? So yes you are judging people.
            You have no qualms stating that a fertilized egg is a baby but you deny that a woman who has an abortion is in fact a person! Beyond bizarre and illogical, you are not even consistent in your own particular opinion.

            Also your jesus clearly stated that you must love not only those who are cristians and treat other people like this “for you I scrape it off my feet”

            Here is a little reminder of what your jesus wants you to do.
            Jesus specifically instructed Christians to be nice to those who are NOT Christians, not exactly what you have been displaying here.
            Mathew 5: 43 – 47
            Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

            Seems that you have no intent of actually following your jesus’s words when it requires that you be the one doing the obeying. You are only interested in forcing others to do something that goes against their personal believes.

          • JamieHaman

            She’s exactly like 99% of Christians. In name only.

          • cjvg

            She sure did not find a sense of irony or logic during her long 40 year search that accumulated in her “Christianity”

          • Dez

            Yes it is your problem if you try to push your nonsense on other women who do not share your beliefs. The first amendment protects me from people like you who want to force their religious beliefs into my body. I don’t believe in souls, deities, or your other nonsense. Laws should not be based on them either.

          • Christine smith

            Sounds like your doing the same to me.trying to shove your “certain” belief down my throat .lol works both ways my friend

          • goatini

            WRONG. We believe that YOU are entitled to make any choice you want about YOUR pregnancy. We will NEVER stand outside obstetricians’ offices attempting to interfere with the choices women make. We will NEVER try to criminalize YOUR pregnancy choices.

          • JamieHaman

            Want to like this 1000 times. Well said!

          • cjvg

            Did anyone here insist that you must have an abortion or use contraceptives against your personally held beliefs? Please let me know who it was!

          • Dez

            How is not letting your religion dictate my life shoving my non-belief down your throat?

          • Christine smith

            Your non belief wants to sanction the killing of life in the womb .my belief wants to protect life in the womb .the first amendment protects me from people like you who want to force their IRRELIGEON down our throats .first amendment ,remember

          • Suba gunawardana

            Wrong. The first amendment give you the right to spew your nonsense. The same first amendment gives ME the right to refute your nonsense.

          • Christine smith

            EXACTLY I! !!!!!!!!

          • Dez

            So you just admitted that my non-belief has no direct effect on your life. Tell me exactly how my non-belief is making you personally get an abortion?

          • Christine smith

            My comment is over your head .you read what you want to read into it

          • Christine smith

            Can’t handle a difference of opinion?

          • goatini

            When the “difference of opinion” directly interferes with the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice, and has as its goal the forcible stripping of those inalienable rights from over half of America’s citizens, it ceases to become an “opinion”, and becomes a seditious, un-American attack on citizens’ rights. If our Founders did not steadfastly stand by THEIR rights, there would be NO “America”.

          • Ella Warnock

            A difference of opinion is what we have with you. You feel somehow entitled to demand that others live as you wish them to. You’re kind of a narcissist that way. Well, more than kind of.

          • Christine smith

            Don’t assume what you don’t know

          • Ella Warnock

            You assume nothing but what you do not know. Your entire posting history is nothing but assumption.

            Knew you couldn’t stick that flounce. :-D

          • cjvg

            An opinion is what you personally believe, a dictate is what you (attempt) to force on others regardless of what their opinion is.
            Since you are here dictating that your personal opinion invalidates the right to (live according to) their own personal opinion of others, you are in fact dictating. This makes you a dictator, an unsuccessful one but still a dictator!

          • Christine smith

            Your dictator is OBUMMA!

          • cjvg

            Coherency would be a great asset for you, please work on that

          • Christine smith

            Bwahahaha

          • Dez

            Yes I can handle a difference of opinion but not through the force of law like you’re advocating. I’m American like that.

          • Christine smith

            Force of law OBUMMA ! but hes loosing his dictatorship reallllllll fast

          • Dez

            He was democratically elected unless you think certain americans should be able to vote. Why are you so opposed to American government?

          • Christine smith

            Polls are now showing “their sorry”

          • JamieHaman

            lol, My religious beliefs are mine. Unlike you, I am very well aware that not everyone shares those beliefs, nor do I try to impose those beliefs on others.
            I don’t know if God cares about it. You don’t either. Show me one single place in the Bible that says God gives man the right to judge. One. Not one after the second coming either. Before.
            Do I think abortion is the cure all for all the social ills? Absurd. Do I think God gave us brains to solve our problems? Of course.
            What you fail (apparently) to get is that it is NOT your decision, or your business how I or any other woman runs HER life.

          • Christine smith

            John 7:24 ESV – Do not judge by appearances, but … – Bible Gateway
            http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+7%3A24&version=ESV
            Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” So let me say this to you ,I know you think you are an expert understanding the bible but the “second coming hasn’t happened yet.

          • JamieHaman

            no duh, referring again to reading skills, Context is that Jesus is being accused of having a demon in him. He responds that it is ok to circumcise on the Sabbath, to keep the law of Moses, how can it be wrong for him to heal the whole man on the Sabbath. At which point he says not to judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

            Not exactly God giving man the right to judge is it?

            Here’s one for you…Judge not, that you not be judged. For with the judgement you pronounce, you will be judged, with the measure you use, will be the measure to you. Matthew 7:1-2.

            This contradiction, and warning about the judging of others is exactly why the Bible is not considered an inerrant book.

          • Christine smith

            Who’s judging you? I’m judging the or act of abortion

          • JamieHaman

            You’ve said that most abortions are acts of convenience, and that’s judging the women who get them.

          • Ella Warnock

            So what if it is ‘inconvenient?’ It’d be pretty goddamn inconvenient to have a baby you didn’t want and couldn’t care for well, now wouldn’t it?

          • goatini

            Nothing in the bible prohibits pregnancy termination.

          • goatini

            Sorry, the millennia-old rantings of misogynistic patriarchal males of uneducated desert cults have NO relevance whatsoever.

          • Christine smith

            If I thought you knew what you were talking about ,I would continue this discussion ,but you obviously are uninformed .have a great night

          • Jennifer Starr

            He did know what you were talking about.

          • goatini

            The problem is your limited vocabulary, not my lack of being “informed”.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Once again, if god is all-powerful & all-loving, why does he let ANY children be abused at all? If god doesn’t like abortion why doesn’t he stop it?

          • Christine smith

            You’ll get it once you read it .trust me girl

          • Suba gunawardana

            Read what? You are the one with the reading comprehension problem.

            Besides IF you have confidence in your belief you should be able to address a simple question. The fact that you hem & haw, and avoid questions at all cost, tells me that you yourself don’t believe what you spew

          • Christine smith

            Once again . God gave you the 10 commandment . Then he gave you free will .its up to you to choose life, or death.the “study ” of the bible (laugh if you want) has brought a great deal of insight into Gods mind .there are so many things that we don’t know about Gods purposes ,but when you “study it ” you get to know the mind of God. Mock me if that makes you feel superior but your the only one that looses .you have chosen your side .

          • Suba gunawardana

            Wrong. Some guy wrote the 10 commandments, and YOU believe it to be god’s word. You believing something doesn’t make it fact. If you have “studied the bible”, why don’t you have answers to any of my questions?

            Here, answer just ONE question if you can: If death is wrong, why does your god kill every single living being?

          • Christine smith

            The Pharisees didnt belives either. Google ‘lPharisees

          • Suba gunawardana

            Stop avoiding my question. I gave you a simple one this time.

          • Christine smith

            Why not ask him

          • Suba gunawardana

            The men who wrote the bible are long dead, while YOU are here claiming to be an expert on the bible.

            Therefore I have every right to question you, and you have an obligation to address questions directed at you as a result of your comments on a public forum.

          • Christine smith

            You sound like yor ready for a breakdown. Get a grip of yourself now .I am not obligated to answer any of your questions on a public forum .especially in the way you present them .you sound desperate.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Personal attacks & emotional drivel won’t work. If you wish to take part in a discussion forum you have to learn to act like an adult.

          • Christine smith

            Suba ,listen .i once had a blind date in my early 30′ with a guy up n ski country. We had to drive 3 hrs home alone . What a smart ,handsome strapping guy he was.long story short . He was very straight forward in telling me his grandfather was his father (get what I mean ) I was taken aback for sure. The date ended and that was that .he was THE most brightest guy I have met .very successful and totally peaceful in his existence .i thought to myself later ,he was testing me right out of the gate .can this girl handle my past? …….such an eye opener for me on the issue of abortion. Too darn bad if you don’t agree .that’s my right and I stand fir it

          • Suba gunawardana

            As usual my point flew right over your head. A few success stories do NOT justify many horror stories. Actually, even many success stories do not justify even a single horror story.

            If I were guaranteed a wonderful life at the expense of torture to several others (or even one other), I would give up that wonderful life in a heartbeat.

            I see this point flying right over your head…. :)

          • Christine smith

            I scoff at fortune tellers .you know ,the ones that predict the future?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Your god predicted the future. And my prediction was spot on, the point did fly right over you. lol

          • Christine smith

            Yeah right your idea of a horror story .predicting the possibility that all children have no chance .Your obsessed with death .apparently 70% of abortion clinics have shut down, which says death is not on your side

          • Suba gunawardana

            They are shut down due to strong-arm tactics of forced-birthers. The result is an excess of suffering and child abuse.

            Death will continue to be part of life as long as your god has anything to say about. Remember, he kills all, and you have yet to provide a reason why.

          • Christine smith

            I don’t have to provide a reason why . You need to provide a reason why .i trust God’s plan .

          • Suba gunawardana

            Wrong. When YOU claim something without proof, the burden of proof is YOURS.

          • Christine smith

            That statement makes no sense.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Not surprising. I noticed a LOT of things don’t make sense to you…

          • Christine smith

            The good God who gave you his son to die for you on the cross .the worst possible death you can imagine .if God gave his son,I’m sure he could have stopped it but he didn’t . If God didn’t take his son down off the cross when he could have ,doesn’t that give you ONE bit of curiosity as to why ?the bible that you mock is what I’m talking about and will tell you why .go ahead mock. Your responses show your colors but GRACE is always there for you suba . Have a great night

          • Suba gunawardana

            You don’t know why god tortured his son just like he tortures countless INNOCENT living beings on earth?

            Simple. Your god is a cruel sadistic prick. The worst deadbeat dad ever.

            And YOU worship this POS who tortures his own children. What does that say about you?

          • Christine smith

            Un moved .didn’t bite

          • Suba gunawardana

            You asked the question I provided an answer. If you disagree, explain why and provide your own answer.

          • Christine smith

            You get an answer to questions when you take you hysterical emotions out.untill then …..continue to amuse and entertain me.

          • Suba gunawardana

            That tactic doesn’t work for you, considering you are the one without logic. Try again :)

          • Christine smith

            As I said ,when you want to take the drama and hysterics out of your desperate posts and put your big girl pants on,you might get some attention by someone on this thread .wont be me .

          • Suba gunawardana

            So you have no original thoughts of your own at all? First you tried quoting the bible (incorrectly) then quoting forced-birth propaganda, and now you are copying your opponents.

            Most people have something called a brain. It’s for INDEPENDENT thought. While yours may be atrophied from non-use, it would behoove you to try & use it once in a while.

            While you are at it, try to learn the meaning of “drama & hysterics”. (Not a good idea to use words without knowing their meaning). You might get quite an insight into yourself :)

          • kitler

            Who needs TV when you’ve got Christine…

            And Myintx…

            Prolifemama

          • Suba gunawardana

            I know, What a train-wreck…

          • kitler

            I love it most of all when they tell you that your rebuttal is invalid, or that you couldn’t logic your way out of a paper bag, and then utterly fail to refute anything you said. They just state that you can’t do logic.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Christine has yet to refute anything anyone said, or even make an attempt to refute. All she’s done is throw childish tantrums.

          • kitler

            As far as pro-liars are concerned, they don’t need to debate honestly, because they are morally correct, always, so it doesn’t matter if they play fair or not.

          • fiona64

            She’s a nutter, that’s for sure.

          • goatini

            If you think that a 12-year-old crime victim must be doubly tortured to “prove” the crime, you are not only insanely cruel, but stupid too.

          • cjvg

            You know, nowadays it being the 21st century science has discovered this newfangled thing called DNA testing. This new DNA testing can be done on the aborted fetal material to prove that, or if a crime has been committed.

            In fact this is the same process they use to prove that a crime has been committed when testing a baby suspected of being the product of incest. No dear in this day and age they do not have to actually look at the baby to see if it looks like the suspected incest perpetrator, in fact this type of looks just like him “evidence” was never considered admissible.

            So you see in reality there is NO need (and there never was) to force a child to gestate and birth a incest baby so there is “proof”

          • Suba gunawardana

            And what alternative do YOU recommend? Keep breeding children of incest? What happens to those children whose mother cannot care for them, and who are likely to be molested by the same abuser? Oh I forgot, your concern for “children” ends at birth. Who cares what hell they go through AFTER birth, right?

          • Christine smith

            By your standards (twisted thinking ) abort them so they don’t go through that pain) I bet it’s a different story when a “wanted child is molested by their abuser .straw argument!

          • Suba gunawardana

            So what alternative do you propose? Avoided a question yet again, no surpirse there.

            As I said, abortion PREVENTS future abuse of unwanted children. Forced birth pretty much guarantees it.

            Knowingly forcing unwanted children into abusive lives is willful premeditated child abuse, and should be punishable by law just like any direct act of child abuse.

          • Christine smith

            C’mom Suba. How do you know what future abuse will happen to a child .really ? I’ve seen many unwanted children Definitely not suffer abuse .in fact many have said they saved their life . My cousin is one .he would be dead a long time ago had it not been for his daughter……. Forced birth pretty much guarantees it? Really ? Is that your opinion? Direct act of child abuse is dismembering them before they come out of the birth canal and should be punishable by the mercy and grace of GOD when you realize you had it wrong

          • Suba gunawardana

            Tell that to the thousands of unwanted children being abused/molested by whomever they are thrown at; languishing in the system waiting for a home being neglected and even killed in foster care; and making multiple attempts to kill themselves & sometimes succeeding.

            A few success stories do not justify many horror stories. Even one incident of abuse is one too many.

            You keep talking about your imaginary god. Why is he not here to protect the zefs?

          • Christine smith

            Even one child destroyed by abortion I’d too many

          • kitler

            Abortion is awesome.

          • Christine smith

            Gooooood for youuuuuu! Sleep tight

          • Suba gunawardana

            Abortion is certainly awesome because it brings the crazy forced-birthers out of the woodwork and provides my evening entertainment….

          • Suba gunawardana

            Failed to address my point, as usual.

            Every abortion PREVENTS abuse of a future child. Therefore it is a good thing.

            Abortion is bad ONLY for the forced-birthers who wait like vultures to victimize children.

          • Ella Warnock

            We know of more than one form of ‘self-absorption.’ That would be those who insist that others believe and live as some of the more self-absorbed dictate. Ostensibly they claim that they only have others’ best interests in mind, but the fierceness with which they try to make ‘morality’ synonymous with ‘legality’ puts the lie to that notion more often than not. It’s usually only really about what’s best for ‘you’ and ‘your’ worldview. And you label others as ‘self-absorbed’ when they vehemently resist subjugation to your beliefs.

            When lefty libruls do it, it’s fascism. When you do it, it’s because you, naturally, ‘know’ what’s best for everyone. Funny, that.

          • JamieHaman

            Thank you Ella, you said that better than I did.

          • Ella Warnock

            Thanks. It’s just always amused me that some of the most self-absorbed people are the worst about accusing others of it. No small amount of projection there, I imagine.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And ‘YOU’, Christine, are free to make decisions and choices about any pregnancies that you gestate. What you do not get to do is make that decision for other women.

      • goatini

        America is NOT a theocracy and we have inalienable civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy, bodily autonomy, and reproductive justice. We are in NO way obligated to adhere to the millennia old patriarchal misogyny of ignorant desert cults.

  • grannieannie2

    Their what? Learn English and then you can rant, but even then you’ll be required to give sources.

    • JamieHaman

      She totally misses the point of ER admissions. Just ignore what you don’t want to deal with I guess.

    • Christine smith

      Problem with that granny? Sound so classy . Maybe if “YOU ” did a google search on nasty abortion clinics in Texas you would be enlightened ..I already did. I don’t need to prove anything to you. As I said in my “rant””, remove the bias.

      • P. McCoy

        When enough young women especially rape victims die from illegal abortions or.are forced to keep a dead woman artificially alive like a vampire for a fetus by.force, then we will see abortion rights come back with a vengeance!

        • Christine smith

          You mean the 1% of abortions due to rape? That 1% are mainly victims of incest or victims of someone in the circle of the family .(you know ,that dirty little secret) so it’s your belief that abortion should be legal for that 12yr old that’s been molested by her father ,so as to cover up that dirty little secret ,so he can continue with his act and no escape for the 12 yr old because he got rid of the evidence. Find out how many rape victims die from illegal abortions.as far as,keeping a dead women alive artificially ? That statement doesn’t make sense

          • JamieHaman

            Marlize Munoz case here in Texas. Woman was 14 weeks pregnant and died of an anurysm. Kept on live support because she was pregnant. She wanted off according to testimony, her husband and parents also wanted her off of life support. Her husband said her body was rotting. http://thebioethicsprogram.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/jps-hospitals-statutory-interpretation-argument-on-appeal/

          • Christine smith

            I’m very familiar with the case and the baby was 22weeks old .look up the 22 week old .if medical technology in this day and age can save the child when the mother cannot be saved ,surely that would be the most ethical decision .my mother was in a similar situation ,only difference ,my mother could state her wishes .she asked to save her child. The fact that she supposedly stated her wishes of not wanting to be on life support,never dreaming that this outcome would involve a 22week old baby ,this mother would have chosen life for her baby .a mothers natural instinct .what would you do?

          • JamieHaman

            ummm No. Mrs. Munoz was 14 weeks pregnant when her husband found her on the floor. That happened on Nov. 26, 1013, and the machinery stopped on Jan 26, 2014, which is when her ‘cardiac functions’ stopped. By the time JPS was court ordered to pull the plug, the doctors had discerned that baby also had brain damage, (hydroencephaly) such defects that the sex was unable to be determined, and would be unable to survive. Is it in your opinion ethical to force a family to deal with the loss of the mother, and then the second loss of a child? That sounds utterly cruel to me.
            If she had been 22 weeks pregnant when she was found, that might be different, but that is a game of “what if” which is never a productive game to play when we talk about any human life.
            Mothering is learned behavior. Women do what their mothers did, unless as in the case of abusive parents they make a serious effort to do some better parenting. You actually prove the learned behavior by stating what your mother chose, and so what you naturally think Mrs. Munoz would also choose.
            You don’t know what she would have chosen in that situation, nor do I. That would be wishful thinking on both our parts.
            I know what happened to me. The entire time I was pregnant with my son, every doctor I saw told me I should have an abortion pronto. They all said he was grossly physically deformed. I thought everyone of them was lying. No abortion. My son is a Sargent in the U.S Army and doing very well.
            Here is the deal, it was my choice. I know plenty of other women who could not would not have had that child, all for reasons of their own. I personally think it was easier to choose to carry that baby because I knew I could stop the pregnancy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A twenty-two week old has almost no chance of survival. You’re talking crap.

          • Christine smith

            Meet baby Stella – born at just 22 weeks and five days – Practical …
            au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/…/meet-baby-stella-born-at-just-22-weeks-and-five-…
            Jul 19, 2013 – Born just shy of 23 weeks, doctors said Stella would not survive. Her mum Theresa tells her amazing story. Really now?

          • Ella Warnock

            They’re the exception, not the rule. The average 22-week-old has almost no chance of survival. The one who do survive are simply lucky.

          • Shan

            Yeah, I went into labor at that stage and was pretty much told all I was going to end up with was a dead baby.

          • Ella Warnock

            I’m so sorry.

          • Shan

            Oh, no! Thanks, but everything worked out fine. That is, if you consider currently living with a tweenage girl a “fine” thing.

          • Ella Warnock

            Ha, well, I’m so glad you’re both well!

          • cjvg

            I’ve got a teenage girl, all i can say is start enjoying a glass of wine.

          • Christine smith

            Amazing reread your post .you wouldn’t know truth if it fell on you. AND IT DID! Have a great night

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, Christine, you’re quite hopelessly insane. Very little of anything you say makes any sort of sense. But, hey, you have a great night, too.

            And did anyone else notice how she completely ignored my comment about those of us here being real, 3-dimensional people who have experienced difficulties in life? Yes, folks, that’s the mark of a self-absorbed narcissist. She’s textbook, and that’s so much more unfortunate for her than it is anyone else she comes in contact with.

          • Shan

            “Yes, folks, that’s the mark of a self-absorbed narcissist.”

            Or a 12yo.

          • Ella Warnock

            We’ll see if you stick that flounce. Work it, girl!

          • lady_black

            Yeah, that’s the exception that makes the rule. At 22 weeks, there’s less than 10% probability of survival.

          • goatini

            A 22 week old baby has been born and is over 5 months old.

          • Christine smith

            No sense made of that statement

          • goatini

            You said “I’m very familiar with the case and the baby was 22weeks old”.

            A 22 week old baby has been born and is over 5 months old.

          • lady_black

            Munoz was 14 weeks pregnant when she died, and her fetus was a monstrosity.

          • P. McCoy

            You would propose having a rapist’s child so that nothing is covered up, I am understanding this correctly? You can be sure that most women will not wished to be forced to do such a ghastly thing and will fight for abortion rights. As for keeping dead women alive, you’ve been answered.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you think that a twelve-year old kid, a rape victim, should be forced to carry a pregnancy and give birth because it’s evidence? That is really sick.

          • cjvg

            Inane patently false claim, there is a mandatory reporting rule for abortion providers. If an underage child presents for an abortion, the provider interviews the child to determine if it was consensual sex with a peer or (statutory) rape.
            That abortion is the best thing that can happen to her, she will finally get help.

          • Christine smith

            Dream on . Really now pp really does that NOT!

          • goatini

            Well, YES, they do.

          • Christine smith
          • goatini

            RCP is a right wing nut job site. NOT credible at all.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not a credible link. Sorry.

          • cjvg

            Well that is really really stupid of you to make this claim because the anti-choice faction has filed official complaints that abortion providers did not do it “fast” enough. Apparently you are equally uninformed about the organizations that promote your personal dictates

          • fiona64
          • goatini

            More lying BS. Any 12 year old brought to a medical facility would be provided the opportunity to meet with medical personnel IN PRIVATE and be asked questions about the home situation.

          • Christine smith

            Your in la la and if you think seedy pp with be that forthright .google it

          • goatini

            Wrong. PP does EXACTLY that, as do all other healthcare providers.

          • Christine smith
          • goatini

            RCP is a right wing nut job site. Not credible in the slightest.

          • JamieHaman

            The link you provided doesn’t work.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What precisely is llama land? Peru?

          • fiona64

            What a sick bitch you are, demanding that a 12-year-old child gestate a pregnancy resulting from rape.

            How “Christian” of you.

      • cjvg

        It is biased if you are asked to provide supporting facts for your claims? You really need to go back to school so you can learn what biased means.

        The onus to provide support for a statement is on those who actually make the statement. You are completely out of line to demand that those who do not support your spacious and false claims, should be the ones providing the support for your false claims!

        Reality, the English language and the rules of honest non biased debate sure are inconvenient for you aren’t they

      • goatini

        You don’t have any data to support your BS lies.

        • Christine smith

          I have sent enough links out their now it’s time for you to do your own google search here I’ll help you out google 12 nasty abortion clinics close in Texas .ok? It’s that simple. I don’t make statement without my facts to back it up .

          • goatini

            You have NO actual data to support your BS lies. Lying lies from LIE Shite Spews are NOT credible links.

          • Christine smith

            Find your own then

          • goatini

            You’re the one trying to prove something. The burden of proof is upon YOU.

          • Shan

            Her religion says she doesn’t have to.

          • Ella Warnock

            What ‘facts’ do you have to back up dead people magically coming back to life? Because you must have just ‘forgotten’ to cite those facts, amirite?

          • fiona64

            You haven’t got any facts. Period.

  • Suba gunawardana

    Time to get religion out of healthcare, and perform all abortions in hospitals where they belong.

    • lady_black

      I don’t think so. I like the part about getting religion out of healthcare. The hospital part, not so much, unless it’s like our Women and Babies Hospital here. General hospitals are hotbeds of c-difficile and drug-resistant staph and other drug-resistant pathogens. They are the LAST place people in general good health belong. Too full of sick people.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Cori check? Huh? And incidentally, the links you tried to post don’t work.

    • Christine smith

      So look them up yourself if you want proof ,and yes cori checks I’m sure you’d like to know if you have a pedophile apply a position at your daycare. Cori checks are set up to protect

      • goatini

        Are priests and ministers subject to these “checks”? Because the facts seem to point to NO.

    • lady_black

      They aren’t links. Her grammar is just THAT atrocious.

  • fiona64

    Your grammar truly is atrocious.

    Actual educated people, such as OB/GYNs, know that you are full of crap. http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/07/24/why-admitting-privileges-laws-have-no-medical-benefit/

    • purrtriarchy

      “Spokestwit”

      Good one Fiona!

    • Christine smith

      Yes,I looked back and made myself laugh ! That still doesn’t change my position on hospitals requiring admitting privileges. That was the point in the first place .Another great defeat for the pro choice side was the supreme courts ruling on the buffer zone .That ought to bring a firestorm on my next blogging !.Grammar and spelling will be up to snuff ,just for you Fiona . Have a great night.

      • fiona64

        So, I hope you expect oral surgeons, podiatrists, and others who perform *far more dangerous outpatient procedures than abortions* to have admitting privileges as well …

        Oh, wait. You don’t? Well, thanks for demonstrating your ignorance yet again.

        Oh, and that buffer zone thing? Is going to blow up in the collective faces of you anti-choice losers when people start protesting outside your fake CPCs.

        But you continue wallowing in your delighted, willful ignorance … and with your blog that no one but you probably ever reads.

        • Christine smith

          Note to Fiona .I challenge you to look back on the number of replies on THIS blog that you made to ME. Your last sentence made me chuckle. Have a great day

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; did you somehow think that me pointing out your idiocy here equated to readership on your alleged blog?

            Narcissistic little twit, aren’t you?

  • purrtriarchy
    • fiona64

      This is the world that the anti-choicers want to see … women forced to obtain medical care at frigging flea markets.

      Sickening.

      • purrtriarchy

        They talk out of both sides of their mouths. For instance, the hypocrites at Secular Pro Life perspectives (they claim to be humanist) go on and on about how they deeply care about women’s health, that women and fetuses are equal, that the new Texas laws are to protect women…

        Then they publish an article about how it doesn’t matter if abortion is illegal and women will still do it anyway (and die), because, after all, you wouldn’t legalize rape and murder just because people will do it anyway?

        SPL also loves to post the addresses of doctors:

        http://thetruepooka.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/secularprolife-abortionsafety-com/

        • Slātlantican

          Purr, if you do not reply, this will be my last post to you, and indeed, it will be the last time I exert the effort (necessary because of your private account settings) to find you.

          I found my exchange with you to be the best I’ve ever had with an abortion rights advocate. Your clear thinking forced me to think as well, instead of mouthing the same words I’ve been saying for years. That meant a lot to me, which is why I spent so much time replying to your last, excellent post. I hoped you would continue to push me, which, as a halfway intelligent person, comes as a gift.

          So I don’t know if our conversation ended because you were bored or stymied (I rather doubt the latter) or busy, but I just hope it was not because you were offended. If so, I sincerely apologize, and hope for your forgiveness.

          • kitler

            My main computer died a month ago and only NOW have I managed to retrieve my numerous citations from the temporarily non-functioning SSD drive (every time I tried to load the drive in an external it would crash my laptop).

            I am still using my awful, loud, slow noisy laptop + mobile for this stuff, so I have not yet replied to you because that discussion is, as you said, a pretty good one, and I want to be able to give it my full attention. Most of the ‘debates’ that I have been involved in since our discussion have been pretty un-involved. For you, I want to give the proper amount of attention :)

            Hopefully I can get windows re-installed on the SSD tonight, providing it doesn’t continue to storm! There is lighting off in the distance /sigh. I am also dying to play my various video games, which I haven’t been able to do in the last month:((

            I hope you have been well, Slatlantican!

          • Slātlantican

            I’m so happy to hear that you’re well, even if your computer is not. My mind is at ease.

            I often can take weeks or so even months to get back to a post to which I want to devote a respectful amount of time, so there’s no rush at all. I won’t think of it again until your name pops up in my notifications.

            Thanks!

          • kitler

            I will bookmark this post and get back to you when I’m up and running.

            If this comments section is closed I’ll find you elsewhere!

            BTW, if you are looking for good debate you will like this site. The comnentariat is top notch and they make me look like an amateur.

            Secular Pro Life Perspectives is also pretty good.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Very sad…

  • Ineedacoffee

    To the out and proud forced birther in this thread
    Keep your hands away from my uterus, you have NO right to speak on behalf of cells.in MY body
    The blood of every woman who has died or bocome deformed.from a backyard abortion is on your hands
    reading below, seems your a rape advocate too – foul excuse for a human
    Btw sky fairy has noimpact in my world

  • http://www.viddy-up.com/ Gregkumar

    Hi Andrea Grimes, I love your site and what you’re doing to educate people interested in Abortion Health Care. I’m also very interested in Abortion Health Care and found some
    great videos that helped me learn quite a bit more on the subject. Check them out when you get a chance; I think you and your readers will appreciate them too. http://www.viddy-up.com/learn-howto/health-fitness/

    • kitler

      Spam

  • fiona64

    For Christine Smith, “prolife”Mama and other anti-choicers in this thread:

    http://i.imgur.com/BTTOSme.png

    • Christine smith
      • fiona64

        And if you had the brains that the gods gave geese, you would have known enough to look for this: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/mother-jailed-for-eight-years-after-1329207

        Quote:

        Sarah Catt, 35, was at least 39 weeks pregnant when she used a drug
        she bought on the internet from India to perform the abortion.

        It’s believed she did it because she had been cheating on her husband and her lover was the child’s father.

        No trace of the baby has ever been found. Catt concealed her pregnancy from her husband.

        She admitted administering poison with intent to procure a miscarriage.

        —–

        The Express is a right-wing, religious-based rag that is not exactly known for its accurate reporting. The Express implies that the woman sought a surgical abortion, and that is completely untrue.

        Thanks for proving, once again, that all the anti-choice side has is a bunch of lies and bullshit to try to make its case.

        • Christine smith

          I know exactly what it says . How coy of you to avoid the fact that your choice on this holocaust comes down to this.you are part of a cult that degrades women . You sanction the murder of children in the womb from conception to birth. Shame on you.you won’t be “enjoying your choice forever ” nut bags like this and nut bags like you belong in the same trash heap .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not hysterical enough. Try harder, Christine–entertain us.

          • fiona64

            Yep, you are a whackadoodle.

          • Christine smith

            :)

          • fiona64

            And a grinning idiot to boot.

        • Christine smith

          http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/sarah-catt-woman-aborted-baby-due-date-jail...
          by Dina Rickman – Sep 17, 2012 – Sarah Catt, a mother-of-two who aborted a baby within a week of its due date has been jailed for … but found she was outside the legal abortion limit of 24 weeks, just under. … Self-aborting and laboring all alone at 39 weeks?.heres YOUR rag . Your assessment is wrong .she did try to have a clinic abort her “baby” oops you mean fetus I shutter at your evil!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, shutters are evil–I hate having to paint them.

          • Christine smith

            Not very quick Jennifer , SHUT HER.!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Who?

          • fiona64

            I am beginning to think that this one really does have some sort of cognitive defect.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I can’t even figure out what she thinks she’s trying to say. Shut her? What does that even mean?

          • fiona64

            She’s Thomas’ little groupie; maybe *he* can explain her.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Were you dropped on your head as a child?

          • fiona64

            I suspect it happened more than once …

          • fiona64

            You seem to have slipped a cog, lady. Seek help.

          • Christine smith

            Yes , that’s about right .your only defense for murdering children in the womb.

          • fiona64

            All children everywhere have been born.

            I’m glad to clear up one of the numerous gaps in your education.

          • Suba gunawardana

            There are no children in the womb, and abortion needs no defense.

          • Christine smith

            Yes , that’s about right .your only defense for murdering children in the womb.

          • fiona64

            Making the same inane remark twice does not somehow make it more intelligent …

          • Christine smith

            Apparently you have no argument .a troll as I suspected .

          • fiona64

            I’ve been posting here for years; you show up to post absurdities and accuse *me* of trolling?

            You’re funnier than Saturday morning cartoons.

          • feminista

            Yep. Just like how Thomas shows up at SPL and accuses me of trolling. I have been posting there for nearly a year.

            I do enjoy the fact that he isn’t getting any support from the regulars. They dislike the religious nutters just as much as we do.

          • Christine smith

            So I can see .Correction . Trolling here for years

          • fiona64

            Your elevator doesn’t go to the top floor, does it?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Argument to what? You brought no point.

          • Suba gunawardana

            It seems one of your many problems is phonetic spelling (i.e. writing words as they sound instead of how they are written)…

    • kitler

      Little boy tommy is now flagging every one of my comments on SPL. What an attention seeking baby.

      • Jennifer Starr

        He claims to want reasoned debate, yet every statement from him says otherwise. It’s ridiculous.

        • kitler

          Yep. And he is claiming to have refuted all of our points, while outright ignoring Suba, who has been extremely patient with him.

          Litlte shit is desperate for attention. What a sad sack he is.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He never refuted anybody. His first action on our board was to reference a movie that none of the posters have even seen because he had it in his head that we were all in love with that movie. And then he went giggling over to LAN and saying “See what I did?” So he could get a little pat on the head from PJ4. His whole intention was always to troll. I don’t know why he even tries to pretend otherwise.

      • fiona64

        How many times is he going to prove me right in my assessment that he’s an angry little boy?

  • Christine smith

    Oh brother!