Don’t Tell Me It’s ‘Not All Men’


I was out of town and away from the computer when Elliot Rodger stabbed his roommates to death and then embarked on a shooting spree that he described as a “war on women.” That means I missed the response to it that took place online, on Twitter, with women sharing their stories of the everyday violence they face.

But this conversation isn’t new; it feels like something we’ve been building for a while, with each new article or incident of violence. We tell our stories, and some men express shock that this happens, that the world is full of threats if you happen to be female, and even more so if you are queer, trans, or a person of color. And like clockwork, too, some people will pop up to respond that it can’t be that bad, that not all men are responsible. Not all men rape. Not all men sexually harass. Not all men are violent. Not all men catcall.

And now, having written this article, I look forward to being told that not all men say “not all men.”

“Not all men” has become a meme, an in-joke among those of us who speak up in public or semi-public about feminist concerns. My favorite version of the meme is a still from the movie Jaws of a shark landing on a small boat; there’s a speech bubble above the shark’s head that reads, of course, “Not all men.”

It’s funny and yet not funny, this meme, because the shark looks ridiculous and yet is actually scary. It plays on the tension between the sheer predictability of the comment, and the fear we have of men’s anger if we are insufficiently nice to them.

In the days since I heard about Rodger’s violent spree, and especially in the last two since my return to regularly scheduled Internet access, I’ve thought a lot about “not all men.” Mostly, I have thought about how grating, how actually painful it can be, when someone pipes up in my mentions or in real life with some version of “not all men.” Because telling ourselves “it’s not all men” is a requirement for continuing to exist and work in a world that increasingly requires our interactions be public, observable. It is a belief we desperately cling to even when we are boiling over with anger and frustration, enough to say something where people who aren’t close to us may overhear.

This week, though, I’m thinking of the conversation with a new friend a couple of years ago when she looked me in the eye and told me she was afraid of men, and I knew exactly what she meant.

Not all men—but enough of them.

I’m thinking of the college friend, a black belt, who only felt safe dating men who were physically smaller than she was.

Not all men.

Just the ones big enough to win a fight.

Because we all do have men in our lives, even if we do not love them or form relationships with them. Most of us do love at least a few of them, at least a family member or a close friend. We have men for bosses, for mentors and teachers. We need to believe that not all of them are simply trying to get close to us for sex. We need to believe that some of them see us as human beings. We cannot actually escape them, and so, like Blanche DuBois, we have to rely on their kindness instead, and hope that it will be enough. That it will not be all men.

We need to believe that not every boss, after we’ve worked at a new job for a couple of weeks, will turn to us and say, “I hired you because you had those seamed stockings on when you came to your job interview,” and then chide us for not flirting enough with customers for better tips.

We need to believe that the older, accomplished man who offers to read over our articles or papers, critique our art, is actually interested in our work because it is good, or he believes it could be. We need to believe the mentorship he offers is genuine.

We need to believe that our neighbor, with whom we chat late at night while walking the dog, will not suddenly raise an eyebrow and start talking about our legs, our hair, our bodies, and that we will not have to mentally calculate how far it is to the door, how many times we have to go out at night alone, how many days are left on our lease.

And these are the better stories. The stories collected on the “When Women Refuse” Tumblr, started by Deanna Zandt, are far more chilling. Stories shared by friends, relatives, neighbors of women who were attacked, some of them killed for refusing men, for leaving them, for denying them something they wanted.

When we walk down the street, we have to believe that the man whose catcall we ignore will not be like the Indianapolis man who chased after three teenage girls in his car and shot out their windows after they “fled his unwanted attention” at a gas station, or else we’d simply never leave the house ever again. We need to believe that if we break up with our boyfriend, he will not track us down and kill us. We need to believe that if we call the police to get a threatening man out of our house, they will not arrest us instead, throw us in jail for the crime of self-defense.

We need to believe this so hard that we delude ourselves into blaming other women for what they face. Because of course “not all men” is not only said by men. It is said by women who say they aren’t feminists because they don’t hate men; it is said by women who consider themselves feminists but think of other women as “too strident.” It was said to me by commenters when I wrote a piece about the repeated encounters I had with angry, shouting, threatening men when I accepted public speaking engagements. It’s not the men, they say—it’s you.

I understand that response, of course. It is necessary to function, this ability to convince ourselves that we have nothing to fear. And yet that response too tells us to shrink ourselves, that we must be nicer, that we must not speak up too loudly, that we must not criticize men, because after all, it’s not all men.

And so when they pop up in my Twitter feed like that damned animatronic shark, I try to laugh rather than scream. I try to just ignore them.

I know what it’s like to look in the eyes of someone I trusted with my darkest secrets, my body, keys to my house, and to see nothing there that I knew, to be terrified of what he might do. I know what it’s like to try to trust someone again after that, and to have the trying feel too big and too scary and too much. I know what it’s like to throw caution to the wind and trust anyway.

It can’t be all men, can it?

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  • TheBrett

    I’m so sorry. I’m not sure what the best response is to these assholes – I’m tempted just to yell back, since at least then they know that they’re crossing your boundaries.

    • lady_black

      He’d have a hard time doing that with a canister of pepper spray in his eyes.

      • Ella Warnock

        True. Several years ago I was in a coffee shop and some dipshit was going off on the barista gal because he didn’t want a lid on his hot drink. “I own stock in this company” blah dee blah dee blah oh Jesus H. tap-dancin Christ are you fucking kidding me. It was just going on and on and on. I was next in line behind him and a longer line was forming, people getting antsy but not speaking up, so I did.

        Started getting all up in my grill, pointing his finger in my face and I held up my handy-dandy pepper spray keyring and told him he was welcome to a face full of it and a little visit from our friendly local law enforcement; all he had to do was ask. Little shit (all six foot whatever of him, heh) backed right off, muttering obscenities. I really could not believe I was the only one who spoke up.

        • Sad Forever

          Ella, why would you be surprised? Since when is courage the common reaction?

          • Ella Warnock

            Touche’. ;->

        • lady_black

          You’re my kind of woman, Ella. I would never just stand there watching a man abusing a female. I’m meaner than a sidewinder, and twice as deadly.

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s fun, innit?

        • expect_resistance

          I hear you. I’m always that person who speaks up to protect a woman being threatened by a man. I’m 5’2″ and have no problems telling a bullying man off who is much bigger than me to shut the hell up. It seems to take them by surprise that and they back off.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    The easiest solution is to stop caring so much about sex.

    • auntbec

      You have missed the point entirely. This is NOT about sex.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Everything is about sex.

        • Sad Forever

          kingdo, that contradicts your first statement. If everything is about sex, then it won’t be easy to stop caring about sex.

          • lady_black

            He’s a fucking idiot, and he’s here to derail.

          • auntbec

            Exactly what I thought after he pretended like he was interested in a conversation.

          • fiona64

            It’s a teenaged male troll who has been banned at least four times (so far). Ignore it.

        • goatini

          Naff off, Chris Funyun.

  • John Reed

    It’s not just the violence or potential for physical violence. It’s a thousand subtle things that most if not all men take part in as well.

    Mansplaining is rampant. Guys aren’t even conscious of it. We shut women down and get into ego-trips with them that they aren’t into. Most men I’ve encountered mistake harassment as harmless compliments. Most men I’ve encountered are or were at some point ok with liquoring up their female partner to ensure sex. <<— This stuff isn't even bad to most guys. So they'll say "not all men" because fortunately not every guy is -physically- violent.

    But I'd say most are mentally violent towards women and other men who don't measure up to patriarchical standards.

    Is your experience different?

    • Dylan Bruce

      Thanks John, I have a better perspective of the issue with the last thing you said. I am not sure if the knee-jerk reaction to this genre of article is appropriate or not, but I felt as though in simply being a man, I was just collateral to this issue. I felt as though nothing about my own morals and standards would change that. Perhaps this is what most guys are trying to say, and perhaps their ‘patriarchal standards’, as you put it, blind them from their own actions.

      • John Reed

        Yep. We consider our own actions innocuous and guy code, bro code (patriarchical standards) demands we look the other way. It also demands we defend our bros.

        When -all men- are attacked as vile or polluted.. we get pissed. Not all men are like that and I am certainly not is the reaction. We KNOW this and because we KNOW this through our experience the experience of these less-than’s is wrong. They are the one’s who are totally distorted. So, we rush to explain to these ‘emotional’ females that we are ‘allies’.

        Imo, you, Dylan, are modelling the first step to caring about this. Pause, ask questions, listen.

        Realize that a ton of women/feminists are so beyond arguing. So beyond explaining the basics. So, don’t be offended if someone bites at you. But, keep asking and listening and observing is my advice.

        • Sad Forever

          John, your advice will endear you to (some) feminists, but merely listening and observing will never be satisfying to most men.

      • aspekx

        but you are collateral to this whole thing, all of us are. MLK made that clear in his statements concerning whites opposed to the civil right’s movement: they were in chains themselves. those chains brought them certain benefits, but the system as a whole kept *everyone* in chains.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Correct. And MRAs blame women instead of the system. The most challenging thing that has happened to the system recently is gay men kissing one another affectionately and/or passionately in public. I like it.

    • Suba gunawardana

      I’ve personally known many men who don’t engage in the aforementioned behaviors, and also don’t get defensive about generalizations. Sadly they are the minority.

      • lady_black

        So have I, Suba. Far too many of them. No it most certainly isn’t all men. My husband doesn’t do things like that. The world is full of good men, and they need to do more than just refrain from annoying behavior. They need to shame other men who do it. Misogyny will end when MEN refuse to tolerate it.

        • Shug

          Because when they do tolerate it, they validate it.

      • auntbec

        I am married to one and raised two fine men who also don’t get upset if they are “lumped in” – because they know they are the exception in most cases. Not that they are exceptional, but they do understand how the world runs for the females. My oldest son, in particular, has stopped “friends” from taking the girl who had too much to drink out to the car “for a minute”.

    • aspekx

      aside from the systemic nature that i mention above, i think part of the trouble here, that is so clear in your post, is that this is all in transition. it’s actually beginning to come to light.
      this makes it difficult at times to know what those ‘thousand subtle things’ are, even when the thousand not so subtle things are obvious.

      • John Reed

        Speaking for myself, the behaviors I find most subtle are the one’s wrapped in good intentions of some variety. Good intention and privilege seem to go hand in hand.

        Wholly agree the vaguely referenced behaviors/’things’ aren’t actually subtle or slighter in their impact because of a guy’s subjective intention. ^_^

        • Shan

          “Good intention and privilege seem to go hand in hand.”

          I think the phrase I’ve heard to describe that is “benevolent sexism” and I think it comes from the same place as “noblesse oblige” does.

          • John Reed

            Men attempting to save women from their own autonomy is a familiar story. If men could just stop with that behavior it would be a major step forward.

            I’m thinking of the situations I’m blind to or have been blind to in the past. Before I recognize a behavior for what it is there is always the defensiveness cycle and, for me, ‘oh but I mean well’ is one of the last lies to go.

          • Arekushieru

            Okay, John, I’ve sent you a friend request on Facebook, so, if you don’t want to accept it, I hope you will just ignore the request rather than also confirming that you don’t know me outside of Facebook. Not a demand just a hopeful request! EEK! ^_^;

    • Shug

      A lot of what men display isn’t malevolence but cowardice. Many are too afraid to confront other men when they are behaving or speaking inappropriately, and their silence validates those who would actually do harm. They refuse to challenge or even acknowledge harmful attitudes.

  • auntbec

    I could begin a list, a long one, of all of the times I felt afraid of a man, since the fifth grade when I grew breasts. I am over 50 now. It never stops. A backward look, a sneer, a laugh, these could potentially all be threats to a woman who is alone. (Oh, well then maybe she shouldn’t be alone?)

    I had a bumper sticker on my car that said Eve Was Framed. I was followed into the grocery store, by a husband with his very frightened wife, who proceeded to scream, point his finger at me, and dare anyone else in the store who was watching to say anything. When I looked for help from three women who were standing there, they turned and pushed their carts away. I immediately left the store. I probably could have gone to a manager, but I was about to throw up, and my legs barely got me to the car.

    A male person, to whom I related that story, told me if I was going to go against the grain, I should expect some splinters.
    I rarely leave my house unaccompanied any more – and it is distressing, to say the least.

    • kingdo goodbomber

      It feel sad for you because you live in fear that you feel you can’t escape. Maybe you can’t, but why did you “look for help” in the store? What are you, a damsel in distress? You complain about men then complain when nobody steps up to save you like some knight in a fairy tale. What was the guy going to do, beat you up in a grocery store in front of a bunch of people?

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Women beaten shot and stabbed to death in front of witnesses on a “fairly regular basis”? Where do you live, a war zone? Saudi Arabia?

        • aspekx

          actually, domestic violence anywhere in the world would be the more probable answer.

          • Andrew

            Domestic violence is committed by women in equal numbers to men.

          • fiona64

            You are clearly dwelling in some alternate reality.

            http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domestic_violence/resources/statistics.html

            These statistics bear out that 1 in 5 women, as opposed to 1 in 71 men, will experience domestic violence. And, Sparky, the majority of DV against men? Is from a *male* intimate partner.
            You either need to educate yourself, or crawl back under your MRA rock. Either one is an acceptable alternative.

          • Arachne646

            Actually, the fallacy is that domestic violence is equal between men and women–it’s actually a very gender-based problem, especially if you only look at heterosexual couples, males cause almost all the serious injuries, except for the times when women are trying to defend themselves. These times are serious murders and attempted murders, with evidence of long-term male-on-female abuse. My references may be found in the excellent Canadian book: “Violence Against Women: Myths, Facts, Controversies” by Walter S. DeKeseredy. He did look at crime statistics and research in North America and elsewhere.

      • Alex Hunter

        Being a man and being helpful aren’t the same thing. She said she looked to a group of women for help. And since when was feeling hurt or scared a crime

      • Kelly S

        Well, yes, quite possibly, moron. Why not? Who would intervene? Go back under your rock.

      • lady_black

        Oh my god. You come back as “guest” to upvote your own bunny-brained comments. Is that you “Chris?”

        • catseye

          Now now, no need to insult bunny-wabbits. They are quite intelligent, unlike the troll.

      • goatini

        Post from new sock for “ChrisFunguy79″ is flagged.

        • lady_black

          You missed the vile post he made to me. It appears to have been removed.

        • fiona64

          Yep. I’ve been all over it.

      • Arekushieru

        You think fear and hurt are RATIONAL and shaming and hurting others is IRRATIONAL? Wow, up is down and down is up for you, isn’t it?

      • cjvg

        She looked at 3 women for help, I guess you prefer to not read that part since it did not fit your narrative!

    • kingdo goodbomber

      And the male person was stupid, he should have told you to grow a spine and stand up for yourself and have passion for your convictions and not look to strangers to bail you out.

      • Arekushieru

        Of course, ass. Tell the victims to take responsibility for the actions YOUR ilk created. What is WITH you people and being unable to take responsibility for your actions?

        Btw, you just made it clear that ‘me’ and 5×5 are the same person. Oopsies.

        • kingdo goodbomber

          Who put the provocative bumper sticker on her car? The sticker whose purpose is to piss people off? You straw feminists are something else. A woman could kick a man in the nuts and if he howled in pain you would claim he was screaming at the poor victim woman you irrational man-haters and your fem-analysis are the absolute worst when it comes to basic logic.

    • kingdo goodbomber

      “dare anyone else in the store who was watching to say anything.”

      you put a provocative sticker on your car, it provoked some jerkface who confronted you then you ran back to your car and cried. That’s one hell of a story. You sound like you are a very brave woman, what a role model. Girl Power.

      • auntbec

        OK, so you aren’t brave enough to post except as “guest”? Typical…

        • lady_black

          It’s kingdo goodbomber. I’m not sure why it’s showing “guest.”

          • auntbec

            Because he is a real chicken sh*t…

          • lady_black

            No I mean at first, it did show up in his user name.

          • auntbec

            ah…you know I was thinking….most people think I’m a real hard ass. I have a hard time keeping that mask in place. On the other hand, I am investing in pepper spray. I don’t know why the hell I have never had one on my keyring. Thank you for putting it out there!

          • lady_black

            Good idea. You never know when you might need it. I bought one of those for my son when he was first out of high school and riding his bicycle back and forth to work.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            I’M SCARED!!!!

            You weak cowardly women are pathetic.

          • P. McCoy

            Another ELLIOT in the making, eh keep a sharp eye for a manifesto from him

          • cjvg

            I think you are mistaking scared with ready. You’ll discover the difference soon enough, you might have to take some of your pieces home in a jar though

          • expect_resistance

            Pocket knives are good to carry too. I’ve fended off an attacker with a knife before.

          • aspekx

            make sure it’s a lock blade or a single blade at least. your basic pocket knife blade can be folded too easily back on to your hand.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s a serrated edge locked blade knife, that fits my hand like a glove. I like knives, axes, scythes, and sharp implements. So no worries. Usually people don’t fuck with me anymore. Especially if I’m in my backyard chopping wood in the dark.

          • catseye

            Used to have one of the folding Buck knives. I was fortunate in that I only ever had to use it for slicing cheese and salami at a picnic, but at least I had it.

          • lady_black

            My daughter has, too. She carries a butterfly knife.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            you are not a hard anything you are a total coward.

          • fiona64

            Probably because Chris tried to delete it.

      • cjvg

        So what you are really mean is that her opinions better be kept quit ’cause it is acceptable behavior to attack someone for having a different opinion?!

        You have a completely different opinion then I do on this subject. You do realize that using your brand of “logic” it is perfectly acceptable for me to verbally and physically attack you because you dare to have an opinion that I find inflammatory!

        Your “logic” and “reasonable” attitude is a shining example of how christians make the world a better place

    • lady_black

      Get some pepper spray, and if anyone dares to pull a stunt like that again, empty it right into his eyes. You don’t have to put up with bullshit from men you don’t know. What you describe is an unprovoked assault, and the people in the store probably didn’t know how to react. If I had been there, I would have been on my cell phone, dialing 911 so fast it would make his pointy head spin, and I would have got his license plate number, too. Another handy little device you can pick up at any farm supply store. A battery-operated hand held cattle prod. Or as I like to call it, a creep-zapper. The drawback is they have to be close enough for you to use it, but it can make someone remove their hand from you if they dare to put it on you. Don’t let them win.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        you are my hero.

        • lady_black

          Piss off, victim-blamer.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            You can cut off my penis if it will make you feel better. I have a feeling you’ll enjoy it.

          • Sad Forever

            I don’t know kingdo, you keep bringing it up. I think you might enjoy it :/

          • fiona64

            I’ll tell you what; I’ll bring the magnifying glass and tweezers … both tools will be necessary.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            You dumb cowardly broads who live in fear and piss your pants and cry when conflicted and secretly wish for a big strong man to save you make yourselves the victims. You’re so pathetic, I bet you do nasty things in the sack lol.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            and of course the opposite of the woman crying in the car is you, who probably maces men and castrates them if they say hello to you.

          • fiona64

            Don’t tell me, let me guess: 5×5’s latest soon-to-be-banned handle?

          • lady_black

            I think so.

          • fiona64

            Chris is doing a fabulous job of proving that yes, it is all men, with his constant attempts at derailing discussion of women’s issues.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            Who? You e-losers are so obsessed with your Straw feminist forum you think people make sockpuppets to troll you? What a bunch of paranoid freaks.

          • goatini

            It’s definitely a new sock for “ChrisFunguy79″.

          • John Anderson

            Nah, that will probably be me. Made the mistake of saying that “not all men” is necessary for protecting men against abusive women. Supporting the “wrong” victims and exposing the “wrong” perpetrators usually gets you banned on “feminist” websites.

          • fiona64

            To exactly no one’s surprise, you have no idea what, or whom, you’re talking about here.

            But you are doing a fabulous job of proving Sarah Jaffe’s point (as I already mentioned), so congratulations!

          • John Anderson

            What, that women are afraid to turn men down? What man / boy hasn’t been turned down in their lives? We know that sure as heck ain’t true. Tell us more fables.

          • fiona64

            You just keep doubling down on the stupid, John-boy. You’re making the point for Sarah Jaffe and all of the rest of us.

          • Arekushieru

            So contradictory, too, ass. Re-read your first and second statements and you’ll understand that you answered your own effing question even though you’re so freaking obtuse.

          • Shan

            No, that’s not the mistake you made. You made the mistake of coming to an article that’s discussing a specific women’s issue where a lot of women are discussing that very thing and said “LET’S TALK ABOUT THE *MEN’S* ISSUES THAT *I* WANT TO TALK ABOUT INSTEAD!” And everybody is “SMH” about it because your male privilege is showing and you don’t even realize it. Which is kind of the nature of such a thing, and quite pertinent to what the article is about in the first place.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Thanks for showing me that Straw Feminists really do exist!

        MACE HIS EYES IF HE TALKS TO YOU, ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS CUT OFF THEIR PENIS!!!!

        • expect_resistance

          The guy who tried to push me in an ally and rape me almost got his nuts cut off from my broken bottle. He ran away from me like a crying little baby. I am not someone to be messed with I will fuck shit up.

      • John Anderson

        With pepper spray in an enclosed area you’d probably need to get pretty close too to make sure it didn’t get on anyone else.

        • Arekushieru

          Um, why should the woman be concerned with that if it’s NOT all men? Why are you people so fucking contradictory?

          • revelveteen

            That doesn’t make any sense. Why should anyone nearby, male or female, get a faceful of pepper spray if they’re not involved? On the other hand, I have no sympathy for anyone who sees what’s happening and does nothing to help.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, you replied to the wrong person. I was responding to the comment above me that was saying that exact thing. Thanks.

      • Shan

        “You don’t have to put up with bullshit from men you don’t know.”

        Or from men you DO know. If I’d had my pepper spray in my purse the day my co-worker cornered me at my desk, he would have gotten a face full of it. Because after I WALKED AWAY from the unacceptable temper tantrum he was having at his OWN desk, he followed me to mine and demanded that I re-engage and address whatever he wanted to know about WHY I walked away, which I’d already done before in reaction to one of his previous tantrums and told him exactly why. At that point, I just told him to go away and leave me alone. But he wouldn’t, because he apparently thought he was owed that conversation just because HE wanted to have it. And the more I tried to get him to back off, the more aggressive he got with me to the point where I flat out told him to fuck off. Loudly. And repeatedly.

        And you know what? NOBODY did anything or said anything to interfere. I mean NOBODY. In an entire office of 95% OTHER MEN. And it wasn’t a brushfire type encounter, it went ON for a while. And yet they all sat there on their asses – even the others he’d subjected to the same behavior – watching, even when my co-worker loudly pointed out the fact that I was physically SHAKING. (Which, as any number of you will know, was adrenaline, a fight-or-flight response to being cornered.)

        What eventually got him to leave? Was when he started trying to paint HIMSELF as the victim with the “Oh, now you’re making it personal and insulting me?” (I believe I said he should, again, “back the fuck away now” because he was being “fucking weird”.) That’s when I REALLY raised my voice and said “What, YOU are the only one around here who’s allowed to insult people by being verbally abusive and berating your co-workers in front of the entire office?” Or something like that. Funnily enough, that sent him running off to our boss like a kicked puppy.

        • lady_black

          He’s a bully, and yes, he deserved to be pepper-sprayed.

    • Suba gunawardana

      I am curious, what exactly was he yelling about or accusing you of? Considering it was a public place, I think this would have been a good opportunity to educate a probable misogynistic prick on how Eve was framed.

      • lady_black

        No. You don’t bother speaking to people like that. You tell them to get out of your face, or you’ll hurt them. Then follow through with it.

        • Suba gunawardana

          This response is for both auntbec & lady-black:

          Actually I have managed to argue down a number of religious nuts who had the same attitude, i.e.”How DARE you blaspheme against the lawrd” :) They didn’t look violent, but I don’t think this guy would have dared to be violent either, in a public place. They just assume everybody should kowtow to them & their lawrd. One weakness all religious nuts share is the inability to face logic & common sense.

          • lady_black

            There’s a difference between “talking someone down” and trying to have meaningful communication with a raging, screaming, entitled idiot who is clearly intimidating you. Anyone who flips his lid over a bumper-sticker is not interested in dialogue, and it’s best to treat them no differently than any other assailant.

          • auntbec

            This is true…assailant is an excellent way to think of this type of person. And he sure as heck did intimidate me. He scared the hell out of me…not literally, it’s still in there ;) I truly believe that if I hadn’t been alone, he wouldn’t have followed me in anyway. However, entitled is exactly the right description of anyone who is confrontational in that way…I am reminded of protestors in front of clinics.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            of course he scared you, you probably get scared of shadows in your bedroom at night. You see, you are simply a coward who lacks the courage of your convictions. You’ll put provocative stickers on your care then run away in fear and cry when they provoke someone. What an amazing role model.

            You are no strong woman you are simply a coward.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I practice in front of the mirror when I want to retrain myself. “Step back Dude or I will rip your balls off” is a good one.

          • kingdo goodbomber

            The best thing to do is run to your car in fear and then cry your eyes out then come to rhrealitycheck.org and rant about how evil men are like a good straw feminist.

          • expect_resistance

            Why are you posting here?

          • kingdo goodbomber

            What’s wrong with you? You should have ran to your car like a frightened deer and cried your eyes out for twenty minutes then posted on the Internet about how all men are evil and make you cry and that you were SO SCARED you thought he was going to kill you and you even looked to you fellow ladies to provide you with the strength you obviously lack (because if you had looked to any men they would have beaten you within an inch of your life and raped you) and bail you out of a situation you created.

            Then you could tell everyone about the evil penisbearers and how scary they are and how they make you cry cuz you’re a sniveling little coward.

          • Robyn Ryan

            I quote their bible back at them.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            OMG they hate that.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Damn straight.

      • auntbec

        He was pissed because I dared to “blaspheme” against the lawrd. I’m always so stunned at the xtians in Texas. You would think I would be use to it by now….but I will never get use to this kind of crap.

        • lady_black

          I hardly think an “Eve was framed” bumper sticker qualifies as blasphemy, and he doesn’t sound like much of a Christian. It’s easy to hide misogyny behind religion, but Jesus never shamed women or screamed at them in anger.

          • goatini

            To a fundamentalist, literalist so-called “Christian”, the “creation” myth is the foundation of their institutionalized misogyny.

          • John Anderson

            Everything bad that happens to a woman is misogyny. Put money in a vending machine and your item gets stuck. Some man planned it that way.

          • Shan

            *eyeroll*

          • goatini

            Because not getting your Twix is EXACTLY like 5000+ years of institutionalized misogyny. Pull the other one.

          • catseye

            Hi, goatini! Back after awhile w/o a ‘puter. Good to read you again! <|:-)

          • lady_black

            Oh just shut up, troll.

          • Shan

            #notallvendingmachines

          • A. T.

            Hey. Why don’t you stop trolling and go reply to science! :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Moron.

        • JamieHaman

          Live in Texas myself. I know what you mean.

        • kingdo goodbomber

          He was pissed and you stood there and took it, petrified in fear, before you ran away to cry you little baby.

      • John Anderson

        Why do you assume he was misogynist? Couldn’t it have been a religious objection? I guess that wouldn’t support the narrative though.

        • goatini

          Seeing as the superstitious dogma of the three desert cults are the source of almost all institutionalized misogyny on the planet for the last 5000 years, “religious objections” relative to females are all misogynist in nature.

        • Suba gunawardana

          That’s why I said “a probable misogynistic prick” instead of just “misogynistic prick”.

          However, what difference does it make if it WAS a religious objection? Religion is just another name for misogyny.

    • aspekx

      ya … a solid 911 or a manager would have done the trick. i am so terribly sorry it scarred you so. there are people out there who will help and not stand by and watch, ive done it myself and i’m not the ‘fighting’ type.

      • auntbec

        Thank you….this is Texas, and you never know who’s “packing”.

        • BethK

          The thing of it is that “liberals” and people with unpopular opinions also have guns – and they COULD be “packing” as well. While shootouts are certainly not the ideal situation, such a “liberal” with a confrontational bumper sticker could be “in fear for her life”, and would have the component for a “stand your ground” case. It would only take a few of these to get many of these entitled ***s to back down, back away, and try some civility.

          If those with non neocon-teathuglican-quasi-religious can bully those with differing opinions and get us to back down, they will have WON.

        • catseye

          It’s like the bowl of poisoned M&M’s where 10% of the candies are poisoned. You have no way of telling who is “packing” and who isn’t.

      • Arekushieru

        Same, aspekx. I am not the fighting type, but even in dangerous situations to myself I tend to act quickly no matter what. That was proven when two girls tried to beat me up in the women’s bathroom. I didn’t take it without a sound. I called them names and fought all the way, even though it was two against one and I was not the fighter type.

        • catseye

          Good on you, Arekushieru. Myself, after the umpteenth time, decided I was damn well going to BECOME the “fighter type.” Signed up for Tae Kwon Do classes and learned how to use a knife.

          • Arekushieru

            I took both Karate and Tae Kwon Do, myself, but I never get higher than the second belt. And this was YEARS ago, even before the attack occurred.

    • Donnie McLeod

      Appreciate that visceral rage is proof we have progressed along our evolutionary path from something which viewed reality in simple terms. We evolved from a species which had no ability to reason or inquire. The individuals if cornered by a threat all acted the same. They acted just like the father who saw your bumper sticker. You haven proven some of us are dangerous because of their false perception of reality. They are too afraid of reality to be trusted in any government position.

    • Elisabeth

      Jesus. I got harassed on a daily basis while walking to high school, which was especially gross and scary since at least half the cat-callers were middle-aged. But I pretty much stopped getting it after age 19 or 20. I’m not reckless, but I usually don’t have any fear of being out after 10 or 11 p.m. so long as it’s a well-lit area with other people around. I can’t imagine being that afraid of other people on a daily basis. I see that you live in Texas – maybe I’m stereotyping, but I’d definitely be afraid of strangers there.

      I agree with lady_black – invest in pepper spray, a taser, or a police baton, and learn how to use them. And escaping the situation is always the best solution.

      • auntbec

        Middle school was really when it started. As I was walking home down a busy street, a man stopped and pulled me into his car. As soon as we took off, he had to stop at a light, where I jumped out. I had forgotten about that….

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          The local mobster and nightclub owner who was my neighbor started stalking me in his white cadillac when I was 13 years old. A couple of times a week he would follow me and smile and wave. He was grooming me to see him as pleasant and interested in me.
          When I was 18 he offered me a job as a hostess and interviewed me at the closed club, his driver playing lookout outside, and.pushed me hard onto a banquette and raped me. He had a tiny dick and three strokes and he was done. Then they just pushed me outside. I walked home in a dazed condition. I never told a soul. I did not think anyone would believe me. Not the only time I was sexually molested and/or raped. I was a really innocent Catholic girl and a little vain and silly. I put an advertisement with his name on Craig’s list to see if there were others like me. I imagine there were but he is dead and so are some of my mates.

          • auntbec

            How many stories? How many women/girls? I signed up for a RAD class….I’m done with this shit! Thanks to all my strong women who shined the light!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are a strong woman. Do not go away. You are a fine contribution to the coven.

          • expect_resistance

            I’ll second that.

          • auntbec

            I’m not going anywhere! You all are stuck with me, and yes, I am strong on the surface, but I intend to get there on the inside too! Gracias…. ;-)

          • catseye

            Every time you stand up to a jerk, you get stronger. You go! (And PLEASE don’t go away!)

          • Arachne646

            I’m so sorry that happened to you. You didn’t deserve that, or any of the other assaults that you mention. I had a few less severe incidents of assault and harassment happen to me, and it’s very easy to tell your story, as you did here, in a way that minimizes the crime, and magnifies your own supposed character defects. I’m praying for you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Arachne your prayers are gratefully accepted. I need them.

    • Lyra Anastasia Gavinsdottir

      Wait a second. What did he actually do?

      • auntbec

        He followed me in, tapped me on the shoulder, and when I turned around, he proceeded to yell – right up in my face – about a bumper sticker I had on my car. He was close enough to spit on me as he yelled.

        • Lyra Anastasia Gavinsdottir

          Really? Because you act as if he threw a punch in your face.

          • colleen2

            Ah, this is yet another sock puppet of the same abusive and very sick little man. What a coward he is. He would never speak this way to our faces.

          • Arekushieru

            So, not only does the troll not understand how surnames work in Iceland, the troll also wants women to wait for the man to actually physically attack the woman before they should start feeling afraid. Uh, your misogyny and privilege is showing, ASS.

    • revelveteen

      Yuck, so sorry for you. I understand the desire to just get away rather than attempt to complain to management, who might make it worse. But what’s up with his wife and the other women? Not that it wasn’t his fault, but geez, what a bunch of wimps.

      Though if you live in a small town perhaps they were all afraid of retaliation.

      • auntbec

        Realistically, it appeared that his wife was terrified of him. She never took off her sunglasses and was standing off to the side. The other three women, I have no idea…but if I had to guess, they were amused because it was all about religion – and a man yelling at an unknown woman.

  • aspekx

    the understanding that misogyny, et al., are *systemic* problems not simply the acts of a single individual can go a long way towards helping. it’s like equating Rodger with every male of college age, or every person with ASD or any mental health issues.

    obviously there are exceptions, obviously not all men act in one particular fashion at all times. that’s the obvious part.

    i don’t know of a single person who is says that all men are [x] at all times.

    i get the fear of being equated with rapists and murderers and abusers simply because you are male. but no one is doing that. what they are doing is equating an ongoing systemic pattern of behavior that has to be stopped.

    systemic means *everyone* has to stand up and *everyone* has to say or do something about it given the context they live in.

    so let’s stop with the distraction of “not me”. didn’t any of you read the children’s story about The Little Red Hen? she’s trying to make something good to be shared and all some people can say is, “not i.”

    • Sad Forever

      Part of the problem is getting people to accept their irrational nature more generally. I think that’s one of the walls we’re bumping up against at this point.

      As male domination, white domination, etc*., take on more and more indirect forms (not saying this means they’re less virulent), the argument about their prevalence requires privileged sectors of the population to accept (more and more) unconscious bias and irrationality. However, as those who critique very rarely have mastered their own bias and irrationality, there is almost always something that can be latched on to as proof of THEIR irrationality.

      So to deny my privileges and pathology, I hold on to the kernel of your irrationality (real or imagined, but usually there’s something real there). I won’t let go. “Not all men”, “not all men”, “not all men”: I focus on your generalization of men, exaggerate those generalizations, mimic your own critique, and apply it to myself. We see this embracing of the consciousness of victimhood all across privileged sectors today.

      It may not be fair (it’s not), but I feel like the critic has to go further somehow. There’s some level of consciousness about our own irrationality that has to be reached to put us in a position to break the cycle I mention above. It’s not adequate to simply say, “stop with the distraction”. After all, who isn’t struggling with their attention in the so-called Information Age? Who isn’t stuck in some false narrative?

      *I think it’s important to note the exception: class domination, which is more and more overt

      • aspekx

        i think i see your point, but i would also think that whatever we can be conscious of we should still attempt to work on. my saying ‘stop with the distraction’ would of course be ignored or cause offense to someone completely lost in the currently changing narrative.

        however, it would seem to me that all messages are not intended for all audiences. i realize i am speaking from at least some unconscious acceptance of the current narrative. (hell, i can even hear it playing in my head at times.) so, i suppose i am speaking to those closer to my position on the scale of becoming aware of what the narrative is to begin with and do recognize the injustices related to that narrative.

        perhaps i got lost in the pronouns, i’m not sure. would appreciate a clarification if you think i’ve missed your point entirely.

        • Sad Forever

          I think you understand my gist, and it’s not an easy thing to convey.

          You’re right. The context of audience matters. That’s another complication. Lately I’m focused on orienting outwards. How can I get through these narratives to people I have fundamental disagreements with? But that can’t be focused on to the detriment of communicating with each other—that would be folly.

          We have to wear a lot of hats to make progress on fundamental social change, and we have to be able to recognize when different approaches are appropriate. That’s so difficult. It gives me a lot to think about. Thank you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I like something that came out of Neuro Linguistic Programming. “The meaning of a communication is the response you get.” Tends to clear the brush for me.

  • redlemon

    I’ve noticed something when it comes to things like this. I have friends who are men and, when I bring stuff like this up, they don’t start with “Not all men…” What they usually say is, “Man, that stuff sucks, I wish guys would stop think that’s okay. Wanna beer?” (Usually not in those exact words, but I’m sure you get the point) It’s the fact that they listen, that they want to learn, that they realize that there are some truly sucky and frightening things that they will never experience. If I say that touching my boobs, even in jest, is verboten, they listen and respect it, not try and be defensive about it or say that so-and-so gets to touch my boobs.

  • 2cents

    So, as a man, I am a little confused/perplexed. I understand that no means no, if I approach a woman and she turns me down, I won’t keep bothering her. But, you make it sound like any attempt to impress, compliment, or other wise gain a woman’s attention is out of line and unwelcome. Maybe I misunderstood.
    Here’s the thing, I am very respectful of women, actually I just try to be respectful to everyone but since this is about women, I’ll be specific. I have friends that are women and believe it or not, I don’t want to have sex with everyone of them. I am wiling to help them out, spend time together, appreciate who they are and I don’t expect anything from them. On the other hand, I know some women who I do have a romantic interest in and would like to be with, but I am not aggressive enough. Before you criticize me for that statement, it has been women who have told me that.
    So as men we get the messages that we shouldn’t/absolutely must make a move. Which is it? I don’t want anyone getting the impression I am angry or upset about this. I am not, just a little frustrated. I know it is a societal problem, women aren’t supposed to let guys know they are interested, at least not directly, and guys are supposed to be able to tell by veeeery subtle hints when they are. Well most of the time we don’t, and there is a good chance the guys that do pick up on those hints are the guys you complain about who only see women as sexual playthings.
    Several women I have been very good friends with over the years, who I would have felt honored and humbled to have been in a relationship with but who were not interested, ended up getting together with guys who were real assholes. Guys who abused them, cheated on them, and in some cases, got them pregnant then promptly left them . It reminds me of the meme that shows a woman praying “God send me a man who understands what I need and really loves me,” then it shows God saying,”I did, years ago, but you keep telling him you just want to be friends.”
    I know, it’s “not all women” who are like that right.

    • Alex Hunter

      Not to put down an entire gender during a period of uncertainty, but I think that there’s a hidden factor in all of this. The fundamental cause of all this is that Elliot considers women prizes to be won. But how do women view themselves?
      When you look at the number of billionaires dating girls 1/3 their age or the number of women who use EliteSingles.com to find a man, you begin to see that the message isn’t getting the traction it should because women like that want men who are high achievers. Obviously Elliot got the message confused with looks and privilege, but ultimately if men and women are to see each other as equals we need to reassess how we present ourselves. Are men just ATMs? Are women just trophies? These are things that can make or break attitudes.

      • lady_black

        Men who want “trophies” deserve to be seen as ATMs. Sounds like a marriage made in heaven to me.

        • Alex Hunter

          Even so, knowing that the 1% could provide funding for research into mental illness but instead use their wealth to excessively pamper their current girlfriend is a frustrating notion to live with.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I heart you, Alex. Thank you.

          • Alex Hunter

            You’re welcome.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      How about just straight out asking like this “I find you so interesting and attractive. I would like to date you. How do you feel about that?”

      • 2cents

        I have actually tried that approach. Mixed results. I know that should be a no brainer, but think about how much a man is risking by making that statement. I know it shouldn’t be that big of a deal, but we all have our insecurities and it is hard not to take rejection of the offer as rejection of us as a person. A lot of us are way more sensitive than we will ever admit. It may all be a bunch of socially programmed bullshit, but we have a hard time throwing that out there unless we have some indication that it will be well received.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I asked a man for a date once. I got turned down. Did hurt my feelings. Maybe women should be more aggressive. All I know is that I am glad that part of my life is over. I was never good at it either. Always picked the wrong man.
          It is like what they teach you in sales. Ask for the sale. If you get a NO, just move on, asking for the sale, until you get to a YES. If you spend time obsessing about the NO, it will take you longer to get to the YES. And what you want is the YES.

          • Arekushieru

            It’s just too bad that these mansplainers can’t, then, seem to put two and two together and figure out that the very thing Sarah is talking about is the reason WHY women aren’t as aggressive when it comes to rejection. Because WE are socialized NOT to feel entitled to every man’s body? Yeah, men are the ‘logical’ ones, alright.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Their egos get involved. The old bromide transformed = a stiff dick has no eyes and no brain.

  • Robert Merrill Taylor

    Of Elliot Rodgers six murder victims, four were men. Does anyone outside of their families mourn them?

    • Sydney

      Yes

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Sydney! Good to see you.

        • Sydney

          Back ‘atcha!

    • fiona64

      Fabulous job of proving the point; there’s always some guy who wants to derail discussion of women’s issues and make it about the poor, oppressed men.

      • Robert Merrill Taylor

        How about the poor dead men?

        • Arekushieru

          They weren’t killed en masse by some person who wanted revenge for some man dumping them even though they’re such ‘good people’ and deserve all the access to their bodies that they want, now WERE they? That’s the OBVIOUS part that you and King Dodo Bummer failed to grasp. And continuing to fail to grasp just keeps proving OUR point. So please do respond and show what ass-lickers you are to the cult of Anti-feminist MRAs.

          The fact that your good friend King Dodo doesn’t think that John and Dylan have minds of their own is very telling about how patronizing he ACTUALLY is, btw.

          • Robert Merrill Taylor

            Actually, they WERE killed en masse. You should familiarize yourself with this crime.

          • Arekushieru

            Can’t read in context, I see. Grab a brain, some time. I promise it won’t hurt. Much.

        • fiona64

          And now you double down. I’m sure that, with just a little effort, you could stop being deliberately obtuse.

          • Robert Merrill Taylor

            I am a Canadian. On December 6, 1989 at l’École Polytechnique of the Université de Montréal, Marc Lepin selectively shot twenty-four women engineering students, killing fourteen, a misogynistic crime we still mourn today. I know what mass murder really is. The four men in Santa Barbara were stabbed to death, a very upfront and personal crime. Are these men disposable to you?

          • fiona64

            Still doubling-down, I see. Be gone, troll.

          • Robert Merrill Taylor

            I would suggest that you are the misandrist troll.

          • fiona64

            Here’s a pro-tip, little man: calling you out on your bullshit does not make me, or any other woman here, a misandrist.

          • Robert Merrill Taylor

            I have not called any other woman here a misandrist. Buy thank you for confirming my opinion of you.

          • fiona64

            Your sole purpose here is to derail the conversation about women’s issues and try to make it about men. Pointing this out does not make me a misandrist, but your ire at a woman who dares to call you out for your behavior definitely makes you a misogynist.

            You are proving the point that Sarah is making in the article. You just can’t stand it that women are talking about the crap we deal with on a daily basis from men, who feel that they have the right to remark on our bodies (positively or negatively) and who refuse to be shut down by jerks like you who don’t want to acknowledge that yes, what we are talking about is reality. Day in and day out.

            I don’t hate men; I don’t even hate you. In fact, I care so little about you that I wouldn’t even miss you if you were gone. You’re just angry because we’re not letting you get away with derailing the discussion.

            Learn to live with the disappointment.

          • goatini

            No such thing.

          • lady_black

            You need to look into the roots of the killer’s psychosis. It has nothing to do with who he happened to stab or shoot. Rodgers was definitely a misanthrope, but he had a misogynist streak a mile wide.

          • Robert Merrill Taylor

            I agree with you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Dude, I think we should kill all men and keep a few smart and healthy ones for breeding stock well guarded and maybe chained. Not you. You would be one of the first to go. I have not murdered or beaten up on anyone lately. WTF is your point?

          • Robert Merrill Taylor

            My point was eloquently made by lady_black. Elliot Rodgers was a very disturbed misanthrope. Know him by his actions, not just his words. In the end, he didn’t care about the sex of those he killed. He chose to stab four men to death then shoot two women before killing himself.

          • expect_resistance

            The target of his violence was all women. He wrote a manifesto about his hatred for women.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Selective hearing/reading. I renew my suggestion that I kick you square in your ballinis to jump start your brain. You came here to run this con so I suspect that is how you roll, Perverino.

          • goatini

            I see you didn’t read all 140+ pages of the manifesto. I did.

          • Arekushieru

            Ugh, context, please. He killed the men because they had access to the WOMEN just like the ones that rejected him. There was no reason to kill the women because of the men that he made in the manifesto, now WAS there? Oops?

        • lady_black

          Did you even read his manifesto, or listen to his last you tube video? He planned to go to a sorority house and murder the women. He went there, and nobody would let him in. It’s just dumb luck (or maybe “smart luck” because they knew he was a creep) that he wasn’t able to accomplish his mission. His male housemates, I’m not sure why he wished to kill them, it had something to do with his disordered thinking. Something about that being essential to carrying out the rest of his twisted mission. Nobody here thinks that’s OK. Nobody has SAID it’s OK, so you’re barking up the wrong tree. Now enough of your stupidity.

          • fiona64

            He killed his male housemates because, not to put too fine a point on it, they were getting laid and he wasn’t.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes, he said that outright.

          • fiona64

            I expect a “Manifesto” from Georgie B. any minute now … because he appears to have the same “way with women” as Elliott Rodger.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh yeah. And his defenses are shit. Shaming. Blaming. Pointing to the rules. Threatening. George Booth is a pukefest.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          How about your sad dead ass? Be glad to kick some life into it and your dick. Turdbreath.

        • goatini

          Oh great, another “What About TEH MENZ?!?!?” whiner.

    • aspekx

      if Elliot had made a youtube rant and manifesto that included men then i could see your point. but in this case the men were collateral damage.
      i would imagine Rodgers had no idea how to actually use a gun in a combat situation, that his insanity was at full power, so that what was intended as an attack on women specifically turned into him just pulling the trigger repeatedly.

    • Amanda Lynn Larson

      Did you miss the vigils for the victims?

  • MsProDemocracy

    Don’t forget when we speak up to a boss as an equal and make a criticism justifiably and then never get a raise again–and my bosses were attorneys. They’re among the worst; they have such inflated egos, but they’re certainly not alone. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve done superior work over my lifetime and never got a bonus, a raise or a thank you–just exploitation. Then they wonder why we leave–it seems sometimes the only way to get a better salary is to walk out the door. Yet they continue to pull this bullshit over and over again, because it’s NEVER THEM, right?

    • Shug

      Older male attorneys with inflated egos also love brazenly taking credit for your work. My boss (I’m his associate, he has a solo practice) – just won a huge motion for summary judgment where I did all the research for his brief, including finding the case that won it for us. He was so pleased when I told him about it while we were drafting. After we won, he was telling another attorney about it and took credit for finding it *right in front of me*. Not just lying by omission, either. Actively said he found it. Jesus. It was actually comical.

      • fiona64

        Heh. Had a former boss do the same thing WRT a newspaper column I ghostwrote for him. Someone told him it was a great column that week, right in front of me, and he said “Thanks! I had a lot of fun writing it.” Lying POS.

  • Spasmolytic

    This ‘Not All Men’ hash-tag shows men have a fundamental lack of understandng about feminism. These guys should realize the best way to appease these women is to let them think you agree with them and keep your mouth shut. Not adhering to this basic principle will cause tremendous backlash. Feminists are obsessed with gender which makes it virtually impossible to disagree with them. These women are very emotional and hypersensitive which means they’re impervious to logic. I’m friends with a few Women’s Studies majors on campus so I have a unique perspective into their mindset.

    • lady_black

      You’re a great example of exactly what the author was talking about. And no I do not believe you have any female friends.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      You cannot have a civil conversation without resentment with a powerful woman and it is because there is something wrong with them?
      Way to be a douchenozzle, Dude. Please proceed.

      • Spasmolytic

        Powerful individuals don’t live in constant state of self-induced victimization.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Yeah, so you might want to cut that out.

        • Amanda Lynn Larson

          Powerful individuals also don’t comment under their names, I note. *snerk*

      • Spasmolytic

        I find it easier just to agree with them.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          The easier way rather than the authentic way. Resentment and dishonesty. Way to go, conman coward.

    • expect_resistance

      Actually feminists have a wide variety of issues they are concerned about. As an eco-feminist anarchist I’m concerned with genders issues as well as issues of economic and environmental justice which can be and are related to issues of gender on a larger scale.

    • cjvg

      Similar to explaining to a man like you about gender equality and yesallwomen experience harassment?!

    • Amanda Lynn Larson

      ..Is a middle ground possible in your world?

      • Spasmolytic

        I don’t know enough about feminism to achieve a middle ground. I find the whole movement complicated and exhausting.

        • Shan

          They’re young, and just starting to figure things out, including themselves, which is itself sometimes a complicated and exhausting task. You’re probably going through something similar yourself. I used to be like them in some ways when I was in my early 20s and reading a lot of Dworkin and became obsessed with gender myself. I found that being angry has its usefulness, in that it can spur you on and prop you up when you might otherwise fold under what feels like the enormous weight of what you’re discovering. But being angry only works for a while, at least for me. It takes a lot of energy to stay that angry for that long. I’d rather use my energy more productively now. Hopefully, they’ll realize that soon as well.

        • A. T.

          What Shan said, as she rocks. I think people work things out and find themselves as they grow and learn.

          • auntbec

            And even we older people grow and learn every day….and on this particular website and forum.

  • Felix McTurk

    So then because I am male I must be the scum of the earth is this what the author is saying ???? I am not the scum of the earth I am actually one of the good guys

    • Arekushieru

      Ugh, another ass who can’t get the point of the article. If you can’t get the point, most likely you are NOT one of the ‘good guys’ John Reed and Dylan McBruce are however. Because they actually understand/attempt to understand. Kthx

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I always find a place for this quote by Bob Earll, the founder of Adult Children of Alcoholics.
        “America is a white patriarchal society; and if you are a woman, a child or a minority, you are fucked.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ZerendipT/Robert_(Bob)_Earll

        • expect_resistance

          True dat.

        • George Booth

          Bob Earl didn’t ‘found’ anything, and he’d kick your ass for saying so.

          • fiona64

            And you’d like that, wouldn’t you? Can’t have those wimmenfolk getting uppity; they need to be kept in their places. Especially elderly women like Plum.

          • George Booth

            As a brother of his in ACoA, yeah, I’d enjoy seeing him kick your ass. Bob was big on swinging tire irons when he was pissed.

          • expect_resistance

            So you endorse violence against women?

          • fiona64

            Why am I not even surprised that you advocate violence against women?

            Oh, yeah. Because you’re an MRA. It just comes with the territory.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He is a sick dry drunk anal aperture. He is all about violence, control and being “right.” Sure was easy to smoke him out.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            ..You’re openly endorsing violence toward women after talking about equality and crap? You’re not for gender equality, you’re a batter. Get out with that crap.

          • George Booth

            I am noting Bob’s own testimony about his own personal habits while in AA and before ACoA.

            If you are going to cite him then I am too, and I know him better than you do.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            I don’t care. If you want to think she’s wrong? Hey. You may be right, she may be right, I have no idea. I care that you were just like ‘I’d love to see a man beat a woman with a tire iron’ and claim to fight for gender equality.

          • cjvg

            Link or it did not happen, where is the proof

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are a smart person. Lovely.

          • cjvg

            Thank you. It is amazing how arrogant these creatures are, they always demand proof from others but belief that they are somehow exempt.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes and yes!

          • fiona64

            Well, of course! He doesn’t have to prove anything; he’s a “man”! /snark

          • cjvg

            Someone should tell them that man is not a synonym for god, but that would probably get us a boatload of persecution complex again

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh the joy, serenity and maturity of that remark. I am so impressed.

          • George Booth

            It’s on the tape, Plum. You’ve got it right there with you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bob Earll would never hurt a woman or a child. You on the other hand …

          • George Booth

            Not now, no. He’d meditate. When he was young, though. I mean day-um.

            Nonetheless, he didn’t ‘found’ ACoA, and would object to that being said.

            Regarding that quote, you’ve insinuated that when he used the word ‘patriarchy’ that he meant what is the general Feminist definition now. Pretty slick move. Even slicker that the ‘source’ of that quote is a Feminist.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The quote is from a tape of one of his speeches, Stronzo. Verbatim.

          • George Booth

            Link or it didn’t happen.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have a casette tape labeled by the date and the event, Stronzolone. I have listened to it maybe 500 times since it was sent to me by Leon Setti who lives in Oakland. Earll is a remarkable and moving speaker. It may be the one where he talks about visiting his Mother and the potato casserole. Or it might be the one from an ACA anniversary event. I will have to take a look and a listen. As my Mother would say “Kiss my Royal Canadian Ass.”

          • George Booth

            Yeah, and I stand by my point that he didn’t use ‘patriarchy’ in the 80s and 90s like Feminist mean ‘patriarchy’ now.

            Bare it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It was said at the ACA Convention in Hartford Connecticut in April of 1990. I am a little rusty on the quote. He said precisely this:
            “And if you want to recover from this crap, you have to pay attention to where you live. And you live in a white Anglo Saxon patriarchal society. And if you are a woman, a child or a minority, you are fucked, Baby.” I am listening to the tape now. Mangiare cogga et morire, Stronzo.

          • George Booth

            Good!

            If you’re doing that, then you are a ‘sister’ of mine, a member of of my family of choice, eh?

            You want to tell me about the 5th, the 10th, and the 11th Traditions?

            Bill W told of being tempted in this way, in the Big Book. You know where this leads.

            You OUGHT to be as offended as I am that Bob Earl’s words were brought into this. You OUGHT to be with me in stopping that from happening. This practice is a THREAT to our and other’s recovery and you OUGHT to know why.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bwah ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Breathe. Ha ha ha ha ha. Gasp. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            “Ought” in one hand and shyte in the other hand, they both have the same value.

          • George Booth

            That’s “should in one hand, and shit in the other”, and addressed a different problem.

          • fiona64

            Telling people what they “ought” to be doing, and all the while claiming that you aren’t ordering people around?

            Yep, you’re delusional.

          • George Booth

            I am accurately reporting the standing policy of and 12-step anonymous program you can name. Discussion of the implications and execution of those Traditions as moral guidance is proper within that community. I have an opinion and I can state it.

            I have not ordered anyone to do anything. You’ve lied again.

          • fiona64

            Stop trying to gaslight people, loser.

            You don’t give a shit about standing policy of 12-step programs, or you wouldn’t have crowed about “forcing” Plum to out herself as part of the Family.

          • George Booth

            When you comment directly on those standing policies, in obvious ignorance of what they are, injecting yourself into a conversation you weren’t addressed in, it is you have done the gaslighting.

            She insisted in outing herself. No one made her do that.

          • fiona64

            And you claim that I’m projecting?

            You’re a laughable, angry little boy, stamping his feet and insisting that nothing his says or does is his fault — just like every abuser who ever insists that “she made me hit her.” Watching you is like watching a toddler have a temper tantrum, shrieking and turning all red-faced because he isn’t getting his way.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am not hiding. I do not subsribe to the AA system anymore. It was founded by two patriarchal white men. And strong women in the program have been readjusting and or rejecting “the rules” for awhile now. And creating women’s meetings to get away from pigs like you.

          • auntbec

            Shit fire and save matches! I stopped going to an ACoA meeting because ….. wait for it ….. the husband, of the husband and wife team that led the meetings, decided he needed a feel with his hug that day. I must admit, I did slap him – and then I left the building and didn’t go back.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I would go back for myself, remind him aloud in front of his wife of the feel he copped, and tell him if he does it again you will knee him in the balls. AND BE LOUD. He needs to be expelled from the meeting. And I would propose that out loud in the meeting. Too many women who are alkys or come from alky families have been sexually molested and/or raped. I would make it my business to put him out. Of course, I would do that now. I could not have done it for a long time. I suffered much in silence.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you. That is exactly what he did.

          • George Booth

            This was edgy fun, right up to the place you actually quoted him from the tape.

            It’s not funny any more.

            You’re not some outsider using Google. I’m sure of that now.

            We have to stop this.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You can do whatever you want, Sweetness. I will just bask in your utter defeat. Go to some Step Meetings, you evil jerk. You are dry drunk and far from sober. Just saying.

          • George Booth

            And obviously you are a white knuckler that has her new addiction, Feminism. You aren’t satisfied with being a Victim ™ to one person at a time. Now you have Religion and can point to ALL MEN as your abusers.

            Way to take personal responsibility, Plum. You’re a beacon of recovery. How is it working out for you? Got Serenity?

            I have a better suggestion, let’s have a meeting – no cross talk.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You argue by misquotation. How utterly tacky.

          • George Booth

            Are you walking or talking, Plum?

          • expect_resistance

            Are you flapping?

          • George Booth

            expect_resistance, you don’t have the unspoken context to address this intelligibly.

          • expect_resistance

            Obviously you don’t.

          • George Booth

            Since that was addressed to Plum, you’ve no ability to judge.

            Really, how would you know?

          • expect_resistance

            I know Plum it’s okay.

          • fiona64

            Once again. telling people where they’re allowed to respond, on a public message board.

            No wonder Plum is laughing at you.

          • George Booth

            I didn’t say expect_resistance couldn’t respond. You have lied again.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He keeps pointing to the rules. Oh whaaaah. You wimmens is not following the rules. He can shove the rules up his cloaca.

          • fiona64

            Actually, I’d suggest that he’s fapping … except that his own right hand probably turns him down regularly.

          • fiona64

            You sure as hell aren’t walking … you’re all sound and fury.

          • George Booth

            … and you fiona64, are a Feminist.

          • lady_black

            So am I. So is my husband. Most of the women here are feminists. The concept that women have rights equal to men. What a concept.

          • George Booth

            Feminists lie about what Feminism stands for. It is evident in the laws passed and policy agendas that Feminism is not about equal rights at all.

            In fact, when the Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution was on the verge of being passed by 3/4s of the state legislatures, Feminists worked to roll back those affirmative votes in order to preserve the special protections and additional rights that women enjoy.

            You’re a Feminist

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Citation needed. I was there when it did not pass.

          • George Booth

            So was I. Your demand for a citation is just silly grandstanding, playing to the younger women in your crowd.

            The Equal Rights Amendment could still be made. The ratification deadline was an artificial one that could have been left out. The 27th Amendment was ratified over 200 years from its proposal. If 38 states ratified an Equal Rights Amendment then it would be out of the hands of the Congress, and 35 already have, but Feminists like yourself don’t want it. You’d lose all your special privileges and protections in the law.

            And you know it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Awwww, you are being deleted I think. It sure has been good to know you, not.

          • George Booth

            Indeed. I’m honored by the attention if so.

            You can’t have any evidence left about, can you?

            Feminists.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Personally I agree with Shan who asserted that flagging posts tends to leave the conversation disconnected. And no one can see what an anal aperture you have been. So I have not flagged you. Please proceed.

          • George Booth

            So you say.

            But the record has been edited,and what evidence has anyone that it hasn’t been edited to show anything that this website likes?

            It doesn’t matter if you make a comment that you agree or disagree, the record has been edited. It doesn’t matter if claim not to have ‘flagged’ posts, the record has been edited.

            Upon what can anyone say that any of my comments show me to be an anal aperture? The record has been edited.

            The only basis you have to make such a claim is the reputation of a website that edits the record, which is no reputation at all.

            *I* say you’re lying. The evidence of it was here, but the record has been edited.

            I know how to deal with liars.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Paranoia will destroy ya.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            He’s discovered the secret feminist conspiracy! Clearly, it’s not that he’s been abusive and threatened violence. It’s much more likely that we are in a cult and have secret (fashionable) weekly meetings where we plot the doom of man. We also rule the website and the US, despite men holding the majority of positions of power in business and Congress.

            Logic has no place here. My tiara is woven from the tears of men.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            LOL. “My tiara is woven from the tears of men.” Elegant prose.

          • A. T.

            Why thank you. *curtsies*

          • George Booth

            Hardly paranoia when I am now enjoying so much. I rather like taunting frauds and hypocrites.

            At first I thought the “comment deleted” notes on the thread were a function of the ‘edit’ option presented to the commenter. Since I had no intention of ‘editing’ my comments, nor deleting them, I ignored it. I was wrong.

            Now, since I know that the website is censored, I have no hope of making any point contrary to the website’s beliefs. Groups that censor don’t permit their minds to be changed.

            It doesn’t matter if I make sense. In fact, the righter I am, the more censored I will be.

            I am no longer under the illusion that this is a conversation, polite or otherwise. Anything I “contribute” here will be edited and used to promote the points I argue *against*. Looking down the thread I see that my most polite and cogent comments have already been removed.

            Of course, you’ll say different. That’s part of the fraud going on here. The record will be edited to prove that you are correct. You can’t lose. Those comments where you were most, and perhaps even criminally, vile have likewise already been removed. Nice gig when you can get it.

            I am freed of any requirement to be civil, when my opponents can make references and characterizations to things I never said. Those that buy into this fraud are assured that I did say such terrible things, but they were deleted because of how terrible they were.

            Amanda Lynn Larson was blithering on about my “showing my true colors”. What a hoot that she will publicly support the lie that my “true colors” can be “shown” when someone else is editing them. That’s pretty stupid, Amanda. It’s according to the script, but it’s a stupid script.

            It’s not as though any of you would try to understand why the First Amendment was written the way it was, or the travesty of the Supreme Court decision outlawing yelling “fire” in a theater.

            I’ve read Feminists asserting that thinking logically is a ‘patriarchy’ scam, that notions of a right versus wrong dichotomy is a Male tool for subjugating women. I can see the truthy – ness of that, and I don’t blame you for protecting yourself from it. It’s dangerous for you.

            Plum, I recommend that you stay in places that are made “safe” for
            you. When you do go out into the world, I hope that you protect yourself
            by shouting slogans and never ever listening.

          • Arekushieru

            See, that’s your problem right there, Boothy. You keep trying to argue a point that you can never substantiate and has been proven wrong over and over, again, never MIND the fact that you are trying to use the very same narrative that’s been used on them all their lives and pretend that it’s something that they have NEVER heard, before. Then wonder why you get pushback from it. THAT right THERE is proof that you did say what others are saying you said. Because it’s the SAME fucking M.O.

            As for those not permitting their minds to be changed, that’s all on YOU, Georgie boy. After all, the narrative we’ve been handing you isn’t something that you’ve been spoon-fed every morning by the mainstream like the one you’ve been handing US actually IS. AW.

            So, care to tell us how removing vile comments made BY you on your behalf is purely censorship but removing our comments couldn’t possibly be due to the fact that we violated the TOS, ourselves? Seriously, the more you try to defend your double-standards the more you prove us RIGHT.

            Just because your comments got deleted does not free you from the requirement to be civil. YOU are the one that came on this board intending to ‘explain’ things to us poor wimminz. You started OUT by being uncivil. The incivility you receive is the very same effect for the very same cause that YOU say no longer requires you to be civil. But, since we’re women, that standard doesn’t apply. Again, why do you keep using the same M.O. to prove that you’re NOT using that M.O.

            Ableist remarks, btw? Yup, just keep proving your bigotry, too.

            I’m CANADIAN and I understand the laws regarding your freedom of speech better than you do, obviously. Freedom of speech doesn’t only mean freedom TO speech’s practice, it also means freedom FROM it, JUST as freedom of religion doesn’t just mean freedom TO practice religion, it also means freedom FROM it, because, as I’m SURE you should be aware, the United States was founded by people who were RUNNING AWAY from religious tyranny in England. It refers to GOVERNMENT being prevented from making laws that restrict one’s freedom of speech. It refers only to SPEECH, not forums or spaces in which you PRACTICE it. Since the mainstream narrative is the narrative YOU adhere to, not making laws to protect minority speech such as women’s, means the Government IS partaking in law-making that restricts minorities freedom TO and FROM it’s practice. Oops.

            So, you’ve outlined a group of feminists that hold ideas very different to our own, yet are still insisting that we are a hive-mind? WOW. You people are SO contradictory.

            Finally, what other reason would Plum have to stay in a place that is safe for her other than the fact that it IS safe? Logic seems to be men’s downfall, NOT women’s. OOPS. The slogans most commonly used are the ones provided by YOUR narrative, so that wish hold most true for YOU, not Plum. AW.

          • George Booth

            And there is the unsubscribe button at the bottom of the email! Thank you!

            “You keep trying to argue a point that you can never substantiate and has been proven wrong over and over, again …” Proven, how? Through the text you control? You’re funny, thick witted, but funny.

            It’s *your* TOS. You’re responsible for it too.

            You really can’t see that can you?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I say you are a snorting blubbery mess and we did it to you.

          • George Booth

            You’re still flogging this thread?

            Get over it, Plum. I’m busy and you girls are boring.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You got thrown off blubbering and sweating. I loved it. Was a thing of beauty. Stick around so the ladies can do it again.

          • fiona64

            He’s just mad because the mean women kicked his BS to the curb, where it belongs. Poor baby. Let’s all cry big tears for him.

          • fiona64

            And he’s well on his way to being banned, I suspect. Good riddance.

          • fiona64

            To the surprise of exactly no one, George is wrong again.
            The main force behind the defeat of the ERA was the Mormon church — an organization which he probably adores due to its emphasis on male headship and female submission.

            The so-called “Church” tried to frame non-discrimination as “immoral,” because we would ::gasp:: have unisex bathrooms. The truth is, and remains, that (like George) the patriarchal Mormon church is threatened by women who dare to step outside of rigidly defined gender roles.

            Just a few sources:
            http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2005/MormonChurchAndERA_Aug-05.html
            http://www.baracksbackers.com/?p=1701
            http://mormonexpositor.com/50-the-defeat-of-the-era-and-the-lds-church/
            http://muse.jhu.edu/login?type=summary&url=/journals/american_quarterly/v059/59.3young.html

          • fiona64

            Why, yes, I am. Thank you for noticing. It’s a pretty radical notion, the idea that women are people. I happen to believe in it. So does my husband. So do my friends, male and female.

            And you are a MRAsshole. Which means that you believe that being born with a penis makes you special. It just makes you part of 49 percent of the population, sweetie. Sorry.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            … signifying nothing.

          • George Booth

            Show me where I have argued.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wish you what you wish me.

          • George Booth

            That’s fair, and just.

            I like mercy better.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have shown me none. You took it to the wire and I beat your ass. And I enjoyed it. You work on mercy. I will save France.

          • George Booth

            Haven’t I? Yeah, I actually made you prove you were family, and not some nit wit with a search engine. You don’t hold back a bit with strangers? I haven’t been mean to you.

            In any case, my point stands. Bob could not have been using the current meaning of patriarchy in 1990. You know it and I know it. That quote – in context – certifies you, but does nothing to address that point.

            So, what are you doing here, with this Bob Earl quote? Endeavoring to tie him to Feminism to make sure that no MRA will listen to him?

            That’s what you’re contributing to, which is why Anonymous programs have those traditions in common.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I iz laffing.

          • George Booth

            OK, you’re laughing, Plum.

            I don’t know what you think you “won”, but I hope you’re happy with it.

          • expect_resistance

            We know you didn’t win.

          • George Booth

            You think someone “wins the internet”?

            OK, you win. :-)

          • fiona64

            Poor Georgie-Porgy is still pretending to be the victim in all of this; it’s all my fault that he wants to beat me with a tire iron, you know?

            I’m laughing right along with you.

          • fiona64

            I haven’t been mean to you.

            Oh, bullshit. You’ve been mean to every woman here.

            Bob could not have been using the current meaning of patriarchy in 1990.

            Really? Has the definition changed since I studied it in anthropology? Why, no, it has not! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

          • George Booth

            fiona64, that was a reply to Plum. You’re not family.

          • fiona64

            Are you so sure?

            And this is a public message board; within TOS, I will reply when and where I choose.

            I know it pisses you off when women don’t obey you, but I’m sure you’ll get used to the disappointment — in this, as in so many other things.

          • George Booth

            What did I tell you to do? Nothing.

            You, however, a full of commands for me. I have to do this, and that. Call this guy, Write down that list.

            I will not obey you.

          • fiona64

            Oh, you didn’t tell me to do anything? Really?

            You’ve told me to that I’m not allowed to reply to you (on a public message board). You’ve told me that I should be beaten up with a tire iron.

            And when I tell you you should call your sponsor you get even more irate.

            Dude, you need way more than a call to a sponsor. Get your ass to a meeting, stat, and deal with the *reason* you hate women who refuse to kiss your ass.

            And you accuse *Plum* of being a white-knuckler? Being drunk on misogyny just means you’ve found a different addiction.

          • George Booth

            I didn’t tell you that you weren’t allowed to reply. I said my comment wasn’t for you.

            Here it is: “fiona64, that was a reply to Plum. You’re not family.”

            See? no command.

            But you can command me to a meeting?

          • fiona64

            You need more than a meeting; you need a 72-hour hold.

          • George Booth

            … and you accuse others of your own bad ( according to you ) behavior. In psychology, it’s called “projection”.

            If you do it without knowing often enough, your family can commit you to a facility for evaluation.

          • fiona64

            I’m not the one threatening to beat people with tire irons, pookie …

          • George Booth

            No, you’re the one who suggested it though.

            Silly me for agreeing with you. i should have seen you baiting me. you’re a Feminist after all.

          • fiona64

            No, you lying POS, I did not suggest any such thing. What I said (as you know) was that you couldn’t have the wimmenfolk getting uppity, especially not elderly women like Plum. You proceeded to say that you wanted to see me beaten with a tire iron.

            As you are perfectly well aware. Your gaslighting bullshit doesn’t work on me, loser-boy. Nor does it work on anyone else here.

          • George Booth

            Oh, but you did!

            “fiona64

            And you’d like that, wouldn’t you? Can’t have those wimmenfolk getting uppity; they need to be kept in their places. Especially elderly women like Plum.
            5:20 p.m., Monday June 2″

            You asked if I’d like that, to see you beaten.

            I’m not the liar here. Not even a little. You are.

            Neither am I a piece of shit.

          • fiona64

            You know damned good and well that I was suggesting no such thing. Which makes you a liar.

            But thanks for proving my point: “I had to hit you. You made me do it.” That’s what you’re all about.

            Which makes you a piece of shit.

          • George Booth

            According to everything else you said here? No, I don’t know that you weren’t suggesting such a thing. In as much as YOU are the one that brought it up, and that YOU are the one who was so proud of having baited me into another petty mistake in the last few minutes, I am confident that you did suggest it in order to have something to complain about.

          • George Booth

            It was, exactly, “since you suggest it, I will agree in passing”.

            You could delete it … edit it … that wouldn’t be any worse than lying about one’s weight.

            Since we’re talking about how ugly I am and all.

          • George Booth

            … and you did edit and delete! congratulations!

            I see that you deleted the ones where I was civil and polite to you too.

            Oh, look! And the ones where you were over-the-top obscene and vile! One can’t have that sort of thing laying about when you want to look pretty. I guess you’re satisfied with only calling me a piece of shit.

            That threatening insinuation is gone. Well, that could have been a problem, eh?

            Yep. You’re a Feminist.

          • fiona64

            Here are a few news flashes for you:

            1. I do not work for this website. Your posts violated TOS; they were removed by staff.
            2. None of my posts are missing. Hmm.
            3. At no point have you been “civil and polite” to me … unless your idea of civility involves smashing people with tire irons, of course.
            4. No one is impressed by your lies.
            5. Casse-toi. Tu as perdu, petit homme.

          • George Booth

            So you say.

            I say otherwise.

            Of course, the thread shows you to be right. What else would it say? It’s edited to protect you.

          • George Booth

            fiona64,

            OK, I went back and checked.

            I said that Bob Earl would kick someone’s ass, because on that tape that Plum has he talked about doing exactly that, with a tire iron. I did say that I would like to see him do so to you – at *your* suggestion that I might.

            I did not ever tell you to do or not do anything. Every time you said I did, you lied.

            I did not advocate any MRA position. Every time you said I did, you lied.

            I steadfastly tried to stick to an issue. Every time you accused me of making it about myself, you lied.

            I did not call you names, but you did to me. Well, I did note that you are stupid, but only after you repeatedly stated that my assertion regarding the author was incomprehensible to you.

            Accused me of expecting you to kow tow to me, but in fact demanded that I do so to you.

            You know what you are? A Feminist.

            You are a typical Feminist. Your lies and insults and empty accusations are the essence of what it is to be a Feminist, and all Feminists are just like you.

            I think that you are a *good* Feminist, because you refused to address fairness or equality. You’re a *good* Feminist because you lie about what your opponents stand for, and lie blatantly about what Feminism stands for.

            When I think of Feminists in the future, I will think of you. When I read something they write, I will think of you, of your sincerity and your patience and your empathy and your understanding, and your honesty and your integrity.

            Plum Dumpling is like you. expect_resistance is like you. lady_black is just like you. auntbec, aspekx, Elisabeth, eelsalad, all of them, are just like you. If they aren’t all like you, enough are.

            I’m not saying that you set the standard for being a Feminist, just that you and the standard are the same thing.

            Thank you for an entertaining evening and your courageous example of what it is to be a Feminist.

          • fiona64

            What a delusional liar you are. I’m sorry that we made your dick shrivel because we didn’t worship you, okay? However, your insecurities are no one’s fault but your own.

          • George Booth

            I have the text of this thread, including all of yours. You lie. That I have all it is no one’s fault but your own. You wrote it all.

          • fiona64

            Your gaslighting doesn’t work here, Georgie.

            Now, go color while the adults talk.

          • lady_black

            Fiona is correct. You’re making shit up. The definition of Patriarchy has not changed, ever. It’s still the same as it ever was.

          • George Booth

            Since you have declined to address the substance of my comments in
            preference to attacks on my character, I will follow your example.

            You, like fiona64, are a Feminist. You therefore lie about what Feminism stands for. You’ve made an assertion that you aren’t backing up with evidence. You’re Femsplainin’ and it doesn’t deserve my attention.

          • fiona64

            Shorter Georgie B: I have a dick, so I know everything. Don’t you dare contradict me, or I’ll beat your ass … and it’ll be your own fault.

          • George Booth

            and now come the threats of violence and even more ordering me around, telling me what I can and can’t say.

            fiona64, you’re a Feminist.

          • fiona64

            More gaslighting? Really? Anyone with two braincells to rub together would see that I was referring to *your actions,* not threatening you.

            I’m sorry you weren’t bright enough to understand that. I’ll put in quotation marks so that your brain doesn’t hurt too much.

          • George Booth

            fiona64,

            Wow. You were able to bait me into a mistake again. Pretty good.

            But you’re still a liar and a fraud.

          • fiona64

            But you’re still a liar and a fraud.

            The only lying fraud here is the ugly SOB you see in the mirror each day.

          • George Booth

            Not according to the record of this thread. Here, you have repeatedly lied about what I have said.

            I don’t look in the mirror everyday either.

          • fiona64

            More gaslighting. Really, you’re very boring.

            And honesty, if I had your mug, I wouldn’t look in the mirror every day myself. ::shudder::

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bingo.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep. Booth is a bullshitter.
            Definition: A patriarchy is a social system in which family systems or entire societies are organized around the idea of father-rule, where males are the primary authority figures.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are not my family. I spit on you. You would not dare to say what you have said to me and others here in any meeting I ever attended. i would break your face. And I would have help.

          • George Booth

            Yes I would dare, and you would only have had support amongst your special groups of friends. Isn’t that why you and yours segregated yourselves out, because the larger community wouldn’t support your demands?

            In fact, it is your political diatribes that are unwelcome in those rooms.

            It’s no wonder that you have come to this. For all your knowledge of what Bob Earl said and stood for, you don’t understand or accept any of it. You just pick quotes that contribute to your agenda.

            I’m obligated to extend fellowship, but not after it’s been rejected.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Laughing at you. I still go to meetings. In fact, I have written extensively about the experience. Here is one of my essays.
            http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/2013/05/setting-boundaries.html

          • George Booth

            I’m sure to do go to meetings, book clubs, luncheons, and the like.

            For the moment, it is in the record that you have rejected the 12-step anonymous program community and group model. You are not a member of my family of choice. You spit on me and mine.

            You’re also a Feminist, and therefore a fraud. You’re a member of this website that alters the record to suit its image and agenda. I’m certain that you do the same in your blog essays.

            Of course, your comment with your self-affirming link will remain. You put it there to add to this little echo chamber, and I’m sure it echos nicely, comforting those that agree with you that they haven’t been lied to, badly.

            But me? I’ve been there and done that. You’re not fooling me.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yawn.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            Go work your program instead of harassing women. You’ve shown your true colors already and you have no credibility here.

          • George Booth

            You’re a hoot.

            How can I show “my true colors” when someone else gets to edit them? Why would I worry after my credibility when what I say is edited after I say it?

            I really hope you’re just saying that to be a part of the fraud. It would be sad if you were so stupid to believe what you’re saying.

            Gosh! Maybe the website will put my comments back up, unedited!

            Yeah, like anybody but the protected audience here would believe *that*.

          • A. T.

            I saw the quote, responded to it and copied and pasted it verbatim. You did not challenge it then. It’s a little late to claim it was edited now, hours later. You had two different opportunities to note the fraud and were mysterious silent until today. Yeah.

          • George Booth

            You copied and pasted it verbatim, and I am to believe that because of … what?

            I was mysteriously silent? That would be easy to prove, when the website deletes comments.

            You really haven’t thought this through, have you? The implications of the T.O.S.? The habits of the people administering it?

            That is so sad.

          • A. T.

            We have entered…. The Twilight Zone. *plays spooky music*

          • Arekushieru

            Um, we can see when and where your comments were deleted. So, no, it is you who hasn’t thought anything through. There was simply no line stating that a comment was deleted? You didn’t make a comment. Oops.

          • George Booth

            That’s not what *I* see, and just who are you? One of the censors, or one of the duped?

            Either way, your reply is de rigueur.

            I’ve got to look up on how to unsubscribe from this. Enjoy your echo chamber.

          • Arekushieru

            Neither. You are a censor AND a dupe, however.

            And, yes, I just scrolled up to where A.T. first mentioned this and proved myself correct. There is no delete line saying that you commented to her. So, you never made a comment. If that ISN’T true, then why can I see all the other comments you made that WERE deleted? OOPS?

            Btw, scroll down and you will see that you, YOURSELF, do not believe that we are an echo chamber. However, it HAS been proven that you ARE an echo chamber. SFS. SMDH.

          • George Booth

            I don’t have edit privileges on this blog, so whether I censor elsewhere or not – I *can’t* censor here.

            I was a dupe, here, but I’m not any more. If you’re not one of the censors here, and you actually believe what you’re being told, then you’re a dupe.

            Thanks again for the serendipitous unsubscribe link.

          • Arekushieru

            I wasn’t saying you were actively censoring someone by being able to edit what they say. Censoring involves a lot more than editing, dontcha know? If you didn’t, why are you posting about something about which you OBVIOUSLY do not know?

            And, no, I would be a dupe if I believed in what you and others that take part in your MAJORITY echo chamber say. OOPS!

          • George Booth

            Let me help you out with this dilemma beyond your ability to solve. It’s easy and then I’ll have a bit of boilerplate to rivet to the next censored blog too.

            The ONLY basis anyone on this blog has to believe that censorship doesn’t go on is the testimony of the people who comment, and those that post objectionable and disagreeable comments in particular.

            One generally *begins* accepting the integrity of the presented record, and until there is testimony ( impeachable certainly ) to the contrary, the reputation generally remains intact. I certainly started out that way.

            For “proof”, one can use an MD-5 checksum or the like for individual messages,
            but for a blog? They would need a few MRAs to hold on to running back-up
            copies.

            So, *I* am the person whose testimony counts most regarding censorship. Not yours, and not that of the *heh* PERSONS who administer this blog.

            *I* say this blog is censored.

            The administrators *could* try to tote up the financial costs of my “libel” and sue me for them, but they’d fail because I’m not wrong and despite my charge I cost them nothing.

            Enjoy your echo chamber.

          • Arekushieru

            Nope, you are the only one with the dilemma beyond your ability to solve. Which is so not surprising.

            You can’t see the tiny little lines that indicate when someone’s message is deleted? Not my problem. It’s your fault for not paying close attention. If your message to A.T. were ACTUALLY deleted I would see that exact same message under her post, as I HAVE with all of your OTHER comments that were deleted. There is none, there. AW.

            Deriding others by calling into question their personhood status actually proves OUR point more than yours. HEH. Oops.

            You did not start out that way. You enjoyed passing on the same screed that your echo chamber of a mainstream position ENCOURAGES you to post everywhere. Which means you wanted everyone to look to you as his-most-majestic-supreme-high-command-the-MALE with the ultimate answer to the issue that must not be refuted while everyone else, the ones with the minority opinion, must present what YOU deem irrefutable evidence anytime, anywhere, although that definition may change by YOUR arbitrary standards. Oops.

            That attitude is also backed up by your assertion that only YOU can make accurate assessments of what you say, while everyone else can only have what they say approved by someone else that is NOT themselves (most probably YOU).

          • Arekushieru

            Btw, why are you whining? Freeze Peachers are usually the ones to claim just don’t look when you find material that’s objectionable. Why didn’t you do that in the first place, ass? It’s something I do myself, ALL THE TIME and I’m not a Freeze Peacher. Or, is it again, that there is a standard for men and a MUCH higher standard for women? Oops?

          • fiona64

            He’s just trying to gaslight you. Don’t let him get away with it.

          • A. T.

            I shan’t. :) I was around shortly after it was posted and saw various responses. Conspiracy theories aren’t going to work on me, considering.

          • fiona64

            He’s trying to play the “poor, innocent I’m a male victim of the mean feminists” when his own actions are got what his posts deleted. Dude, really? No one here is that stupid. However, abusers like to gaslight their victims … and I call it out when it happens.

            And you’re right about him demeaning women’s activities like “book clubs and luncheons.”

            I can’t decide whether it’s laughable or pathetic, to be honest.

            PS: Loved your “my tiara is woven from men’s tears” remark.

          • A. T.

            Don’t be narrow minded, it could easily be both. ;) Though I’m amused at his devotion to the conspiracy theory premise.

            And bah, book clubs rock.

            Thank you. :) High praise, considering the source.

          • goatini

            //You’re also a Feminist, and therefore a fraud. //

            Nothing fraudulent about feminism, in the slightest.

          • fiona64

            I suggest that when you do your Fourth and Fifth steps yet again, you include the threats of violence against women that you committed here today.

          • George Booth

            It’s a 10th step, and considering your behavior I owe you nothing beyond the sarcasm you offered.

            In fact, I have to believe that you’re being sarcastic right now, so no.

          • fiona64

            No, dearie, I think you really need to go back to four and five; you’re nowhere near ready for 10, because you cannot admit that you are wrong even when it’s blatantly obvious. You are that bad. No sarcasm whatsoever.

            Frankly, I suggest you get off the computer and call your sponsor to talk about why you get off on the idea of beating women with tire irons when they don’t kowtow to your misogynistic bullshit.

          • George Booth

            fiona64, you gave as good as you got. Get over it.

          • fiona64

            At no point, despite your lies, did I suggest that you should be the victim of physical violence. That was all on you.

            We can all read what you wrote, loser. You want to see me beaten with a tire iron because I refuse to kiss your ass. You need psychiatric help.

          • fiona64

            You aren’t satisfied with being a Victim ™ to one person at a time.

            You were looking in the mirror when you wrote that, weren’t you? Because you, George B., are just an innocent victim of all the big mean women who refuse to kiss your ass, as you believe is your due for being born with XY chromosome and a penis … and thus “have to” threaten them with violence. Just like every other loser abuser out there has a “good reason” for beating up women: yours is that we won’t kowtow to you.

            Grow up.

          • George Booth

            More things not written to you, and that you have no foundation to understand.

            I haven’t asked you or anyone else to kiss my ass. Plum told me to kiss hers. If you want to complain about that, take it up with her.

            I won’t kow tow to you.

          • fiona64

            What an angry little thing you are.

          • fiona64

            I’ve got news for you, Georgie; it’s never been funny.

          • George Booth

            Still more things said to someone else that you haven’t the foundation to address.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry, Georgie; you’re right. Your threats of violence against women are a laugh-riot. There; have I massaged your poor, threatened male ego enough?

            Jerk.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Document Bob Earll saying he used a tire iron on a woman. Never happened. He threw a woman across the room once. Because he was scared shitless of women and said so. Unlike you who are scared of women, make violent threats to them and do not cop to it.

        • auntbec

          Been there, remember that. Thanks!

    • Alex Hunter

      No, you’re the kind that make the rest of us look bad.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Not all men care about impressing cowardly irrational women, how patronizing.

        • Arekushieru

          Not all men care about erasing the culture of misogyny that creates this atmosphere of fearful paranoia. Irresponsibility much? So typical for you fucking losers, however.

          Btw, so you’re the kind of guy who thinks that women should confront a guy for following and harassing them (all the while failing to even QUESTION why the guy was following her in the first place like the good little cult-follower you are), but not be prepared to defend themselves from an OBVIOUSLY irrational male individual who has gone off the rails (all the while never wondering why this type of thing never occurs to men in the exact same context like the privileged little *whiner* you are), then, finally, blame her, her gender and non-conforming gender minorities for being raped and assaulted by men more often than any other reported rape but never see how contradictory and irrational that makes you?

          Wow, you’re a very BAD troll. Besides, the fact that you admitted you are just here to troll, convinces us even MORE that you are 5 X 5, since he did the exact same thing on purr’s blog. OOPS?

    • kingdo goodbomber

      to wit, a “good guy” is a man who does whatever a woman says and white knights for women no matter what and always takes their side, aka an obedient slave.

      • Arekushieru

        No, that’s what YOU asses think is good for the goose but not the gander. SO much fucking misogyny.

    • cjvg

      If you have to say that yourself there is not many who will belief you

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      If you were one of the good guys, you would not be taking offense at what we are saying. You would not be arguing by misquotation. You have the typical “chip on your shoulder” men bring to any honest encounter with a woman or women.

    • catseye

      Anytime some bozo says, “I’m a nice guy!”, that is a woman’s cue to RUN LIKE HELL! REAL genuinely nice guys prove it by actions.

  • Felix McTurk

    Just because I want clarification I am not a good guy so does that make you feel better to knock some one else down ……. boo yah

    • Arekushieru

      No, re-read your comment. You did a WHOLE lot more than ask for clarification and you KNOW it. You were also putting the author of this article down and you know it. So, it’s okay to knock someone else down without actually asking for clarification? And what are you, two years old? Also, next time, use the freaking reply button. Kthx.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    lol someone comes to post and all you crazy cultists start playing google detective and claiming I’m someone’s sock puppet. Hilarious, did any of you morons ever think that maybe you are just really easy targets for trolling?

    Let’s see, a forums full of fearful, angry, hate-filled histrionic straw feminists in the flesh. What troll could resist taking you idiots for a ride?

    Look how it easy it was. I spent 20 minutes posting on this site and you all have started sleuthing. What a bunch of e-losers, stop wasting your time playing e-Detective go make me a sandwich.

    • expect_resistance

      Oh go cry to your mama.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    I used to think Straw Feminists didn’t exist, nothing but a myth, then I came to rhrealitycheck.org and experienced all of you raging histrionic paranoid penis haters who spend their lives living in fear of the men they hate so much.

    What a pathetic, servile existence. If you live in fear then expect to spend your life under the boot.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    Number of times I’ve been afraid of a woman: 0

    God it’s great to be a straight white guy and live life on your own terms. Suck it. The male appendage. Take it and put it in your mouth and start sucking.

    • expect_resistance

      In your dreams shithead. Bet ya you are still a virgin.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Sure, I take the bet. You lose. What do I win?

        • expect_resistance

          You get nothing.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    Auntbec puts a provocative, insulting sticker on her car then runs away and cries and calls herself a victim of patriarchy when it insults and provokes some redneck in Texas, then uses that experience to rant about how all men as so evil. God what a coward.

    • expect_resistance

      She should (anyone) should be able to put a bumper sticker on their car or bike and not be harassed.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        BS. It’s called the first amendment. You have the right to put a provocative sticker on your car, douche man has a right to go off on you and you have the right to tell him to f*ck off but you all are way too cowardly to do that, instead you look to your fellow cowards and when they don’t help you run to your car and cry about how all men are evil. You’re pathetic.

        • expect_resistance

          Not even close to reality.

  • aspekx

    just to put this out there, do you guys have a webdev that can block IP addresses from your server? might help in the long run for the kind of unnecessary commentary that keeps appearing.

  • fiona64

    Way to prove the author’s point so well!

  • lady_black

    Mansplainer, PLEASE.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I am afraid of men. I will not go into my history. I will say that I had to get drunk to have sex with a man for a long time because I was so disgusted by and afraid of men.
    I am celibate now and I would rather not be, but I do not know how to even begin to try to have an affectionate relatioship with a man again or if I will ever even be able to have a relationship again. I make do with porn and my vibrator.

  • lady_black

    No.

    • Joshua Klinger

      Yes.

      • Arekushieru

        No. You can’t be bigoted against bigotry. SFS.

        • Joshua Klinger

          I guess I just don’t understand your definition of bigotry. I think declaring that “all men” are a certain way is bigotry.

          Don’t tell me not to say “not all men.” Because that’s a fact. It is a fact that it’s not all men. Implying that it is all men (which this article does) is bigotry..

          You know, because you’re judging a person by their sex/gender in a negative fashion. Much like a bigot would do.

  • George Booth

    Does this mean she is going to understand and stop saying “not all women”?

    Nah.

    • lady_black

      What??

      • George Booth

        What is hard to understand?

        “I understand that response, of course. It is necessary to function, this
        ability to convince ourselves that we have nothing to fear. And yet
        that response too tells us to shrink ourselves, that we must be nicer,
        that we must not speak up too loudly, that we must not criticize men,
        because after all, it’s not all men.”

        Now, reverse the genders.

        Does this mean she is going to understand how insulting it is to say to a MRA, “Not all women are like that”? Is she going to hear her own answer, “Not all men—but enough of them”, reversed and reflected back to her, and give it any respect?

        No. She won’t.

        So, I will be fair and give this screed all the reciprocal respect it offers: none.

        • expect_resistance

          MRAs don’t want or care about gender equality. What’s your point?

          • George Booth

            The central point of the Men’s Rights Movement, and the common position of all Men’s Rights Advocates, is precisely gender equality.

            As for my point, if it is still over your head then I’m not going to ‘mansplain’ it for you.

          • expect_resistance

            Hey it’s not my problem if you can’t make a clear point. If men wanted gender equality they would be feminists. You know there are men who are feminists and they fight for true gender equality not like the MRA who fight for the patriarchy.

          • fiona64

            He’s just pissed that he’s not getting the adulation that he believes he so richly deserves.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Bingo.

          • fiona64

            You’re doing a fabulous job of proving the point of the article. Way to go, loser!

          • George Booth

            I didn’t disagree with the article.

          • fiona64

            You are deliberately derailing a discussion of women’s issues … wiith your “Not all men” and MRA nonsense.

            We get it. You’re irritated as hell that women are calling out men on their violence. You’re irritated as hell that women are getting an equal voice in things. You’re irritated as hell that cisgendered straight white men might have to surrender some teensy piece of their hegemony.

            Learn to live with the disappointment.

          • George Booth

            Nope.

            I am irritated that the author has come so close to empathy, yet has fallen short to focus on her self-interest.

            Really, this is over your head. It’s about ‘equality’ and stuff. Stick to repeating dogma and slogans.

          • fiona64

            Stick to repeating dogma and slogans.

            No, thanks. I’ll leave that to you.

          • aspekx

            i think we’ve already covered this, the author is sticking to the general topic, which is not abuse suffered at the hands of women, but of men, and in particular the reaction of men in wanting to make sure the whole world knows they aren’t like those ‘other’ men.

            that’s the point of the article, not to show solidarity with men who aren’t actual abusers.

            now, why would she not show that solidarity in this article? because if you’re already a man who isn’t a violent misogynist, then you’re not the issue. and yet, again, and again, and again, posters like you keep coming here, trying to make yourselves the issue.

            you aren’t the issue. men who don’t abuse women, aren’t the issue. men who are for equal rights aren’t the issue. men who are for equal pay aren’t the issue. men who don’t commit violent crimes against women aren’t the issue. the list could go on.

            so, then why post here? do you really travel down the street experiencing women haranguing you for simply being male? do women in bars stalk you out the door following you down the street with a weapon and the intent to commit sexual, if not other physical harm against you because you are male and therefore need to be dominated as property? do any of the other disproportionately numbered crimes committed by men against women happen to you on a regular enough basis that you simply have to make sure your side is being told?

            if so, please, let the social scientists know. there are a ton of potential career making studies to be done and phd’s to be earned by visiting this part of the world you live in where you are under regular threat of attack because you are male and therefore are treated like you are owned by the women around you.

          • George Booth

            I made one un-refuted observation.

            The most of the rest of this thread is responding to nit wits who can’t grasp what I said, unless they were misandrists who are constitutional incapable of understanding fairness.

            She is sticking to the general topic, but only so far as it benefits her. She’s a hypocrite. I think that matters. It would be nice if someone here saw that as a problem as well.

            You don’t.

            Further, you in particular, just like the author, expect consideration that you are unwilling to give. Was that your idea of starting with sympathy, to render yet another list of YOUR grievances?

            The other two participating, I can’t tell if they are misandrists or just stupid. You, though, there is no mistaking what you are.

            The reason you get no sympathy is because you give none. You get no respect because you give none. That’s pretty much equal pay for equal work right there, and I am comfortable with my part in it.

          • aspekx

            you don’t state your unrefuted observation, so i am unclear as to what that is.

            when i mentioned ‘sympathy’ i was simply replying to your statement that the author comes close to empathy and then stops short of it. as for my not having any sympathy, i’m really unclear as to what i don’t have sympathy for in your accusation.

            i find it interesting that for reasons still inexplicable to me you will visit forums where you can argue endlessly with people you have such great distaste for.

            “She is sticking to the general topic, but only so far as it benefits her.”

            perhaps you are being misunderstood in the unrefuted point you are trying to make, but the quote above shows me that you clearly have not understood the primary point that i have repeated in each response either.

            and with that i am afraid we are done.

            i hope others here will reconsider their engagement not simply with you but with so many that seem to come here either to prove their innocence or to endlessly carry out in typing what women in their lives no longer allow them to do in person.

          • George Booth

            Just now, I’m trying to reach someone that I DON’T have distaste for.

            Regarding sympathy, I am to be aware of, and understand the author’s and your issues and points of view. That’s what you got, too. You did exactly nothing to reciprocate. Instead you re-list your own issues and points of view for me to be aware of and understand.

            You didn’t do that by accident. You know what it is to receive and give in kind and you refused.

          • lady_black

            You do not deserve sympathy. Sympathy for what? Someone’s supposed to kiss your ass because you aren’t an abuser? (Or so you say) Isn’t that, well, to be EXPECTED?

          • George Booth

            And expected of you too.

            Now, how do I get you to stop being abusive?

          • lady_black

            Try not being abusive.

          • George Booth

            And I was abusive … where?

          • lady_black

            You, sir, are a MANSPLAINER. Go look it up if you’re confused. You come here wanting *something* from us, and you can’t even be clear about your expectations. Then you speak to us as though we have no idea what we’re talking about. Take it back to Return Of Kings or whatever vile site you frequent. It has no place here.

          • George Booth

            I talk to you like you don’t know what **I** am talking about, which you admit you don’t.

            You get another up vote for volunteering to be an example.

          • lady_black

            I don’t know what you’re talking about? Neither do you, so that makes TWO of us.

          • George Booth

            Some one *could* go back up to the top of the thread and READ it.

            Not, you, of course. I wouldn’t demand that. That would be ‘patriarchal’.

            Anyway, if I did have to do that, you wouldn’t get it anyway.

          • lady_black

            I read every one of your comments. I stick to my original assessment of you.

          • George Booth

            I’m not here to be popular, but as it’s an issue for you, I gave you another up vote for being such a good example.

            You still won’t address the content of the comments. I’m not surprised.

          • lady_black

            Look dude… your imaginary complaints about the nature of women cannot hold up against the reality of millions of women killed, maimed, and raped by men. That’s not even getting into the subtleties of the way men have historically treated woman, and continue to do so today. We’re sick of the lies. We’ve had it with the head-patting and the gas lighting. We’re tired of men telling us what we can and cannot do. And we aren’t going to take it anymore. Not from you or anyone else. If you’re looking for validation, I’m sorry. You’re looking in the wrong place, and doing everything possible to convince us that you don’t deserve validation. You’re an abuser. Own it.

          • George Booth

            Gee, I *agreed* with all that and you just can’t see it, much less address my point.

            You really can’t understand it, can you?

          • George Booth

            Does it really not bother you at all that I agree with your points but you can’t identify mine?

            If it was me in your place, I’d worry.

          • fiona64

            What he wants is to be worshiped because he’s a white dude with a dick. He doesn’t need any other qualifications, in his mind.

          • lady_black

            Well by now he ought to have figured out it ain’t gonna happen.

          • fiona64

            I don’t think he’s that bright …

          • fiona64

            Well, there was the part where you said you wanted to see me beaten with a tire iron because I refused to kiss your ass …

          • George Booth

            and your prior suggestion that my ass should be kicked doesn’t count?

          • fiona64

            Since that is not what I said (as you are well aware), it is irrelevant. What I said was that you didn’t like wimmenfolk getting uppity, especially elderly women like Plum. And that was when you said you wanted to see me beaten with a tire iron.

            Because you’re a sick, tiny little man who doesn’t like women who refuse to kiss his ass.

          • George Booth

            fiona64, I am NOT aware, just now, of anything of the kind, nor that it was irrelevant. You’re Femsplainin’

            Even if it were true, your “sick, tiny little man …” comment pretty much makes up for it.

          • fiona64

            An abuser *and* a liar. There is just no end to your “charms,” is there?

            And you are a sick, tiny little man … you enjoy the idea of women being beaten, because you are so insecure. If you can’t subjugate a woman with your verbal abuse, you want it to be come physical. That’s because you are a small person with a tiny mind.

            Grow up.

          • expect_resistance

            Spot on,

          • George Booth

            Name calling is a legitimate debate technique? This is you taking up the issue of fairness?

            That’s only for women though, right?

          • fiona64

            ::yawns in the face of the angry little man::

          • George Booth

            Aww. Does the little girl need a nap?

          • expect_resistance

            Dude you’re small potatoes. Your one-liners are pretty stale.

          • fiona64

            I’m guessing that there are a whole lot of things about him that are small … can you say insecure and overcompensating?

          • auntbec

            I never saw any of his comments, and for that I’m grateful they were deleted before I jumped back here…in Texas, he would be driving a big pickup truck too! ;-)

          • fiona64

            Trust me, you didn’t miss much … although he did tell me he wanted to see me beaten with a tire iron. He’s a real gentleman, that one.

          • catseye

            And also be sporting a belt buckle the size of a dinner plate. LOL

          • fiona64

            No, she’s just bored by the knuckle-dragging MRAsshole.

          • George Booth

            Knuckle-dragging MRAsshole. Was that insult exciting to write?

          • fiona64

            No, just a simple, factual observation. No excitement whatsoever.

            You, OTOH, seem to be absolutely obsessed with me and, as I already said, I don’t date outside my species.

          • George Booth

            I don’t think you “date” within your species either.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Truth is an absolute defense to a charge of slander.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He is an abuser. Read all his responses? Particularly one to Fiona.

          • George Booth

            Replying in kind is not abuse.

          • fiona64

            Saying that you wanted to see me beaten with a tire iron wasn’t abusive?

            You’re delusional.

          • lady_black

            He is an abuser. And he is delusional.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And dumb as a box of gohmerts.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep.

          • fiona64

            I’ve moved on to flagging this knuckle-dragging loser.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well said. Look how often this George Booth anus tries shaming/blaming as a method of “winning” and control. Useless when the woman he is dealing with has no shame. I have no shame, thank you God. Taken me a long hard road to get here. And here I am in Paradise.

          • lady_black

            Me either. I don’t DO shame, and I don’t DO subservience. George will just need to deal with it, and talk to me like a human being.

          • lady_black

            Mansplainer, PLEASE!

          • George Booth

            OK.

            It’s over your head too.

          • lady_black

            Look at yourself. Look what you’re saying. WHAT is “over my head.” “It” doesn’t count as an example.

          • George Booth

            And Mansplain?

            Nah.

          • expect_resistance

            Yawn.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Repeating “over your head” doesn’t cover your inability to make a point.

            Let me make it for you: Generalizations are wrong. Also wrong to not acknowledge what’s wrong in society and not do your part to correct it. So what?

          • George Booth

            Nope. But you did give it a shot.

            The author, recognizing that generalizations are wrong, but the individual instances can be numerous enough so that the generalization is practically true.

            For her, the statement “not all men” was a problem. Many of the things were true often enough so that enough men were.

            Fine.

            I get to hear the reciprocal “not all women” and it’s a problem for me.

            The author was NOT able to make the further abstraction to see the common experience between she and such as me. Instead of writing something that would lead to understanding and peace, she has one that leads to the kind of empty fighting that this whole thread exemplifies.

            “Fair” and “equality” are always on the lips of Feminists. The idea that the same rules should apply to every one, that something offered should be matched with a equal reply.

            But the author doesn’t intend to be fair. I surmised that she expects and offers fraud, that she’s a cheat, a hypocrite, because she can’t make that last step to understanding.

            She came so very close to understanding a common problem and then didn’t.

            I think that’s sad. Everything said on this thread confirms that I surmised correctly. The people who read her article expect and only offer fraud.

            They expect understanding. They refuse to understand.

            So, I further understand that the whole business, from the title to the bottom of the comments is just the cover story for fraud.

            If that’s not true, it’s true enough.

            Get it?

          • expect_resistance

            You keep saying “it’s over your head” when you’re the one who doesn’t get it. You have yet to make a valid argument.

          • George Booth

            I made a valid observation and none are yet able to even repeat it back to me. All I get is refutations of things I never said.

            If you people can’t even repeat it back to me, it’s over your head.

          • expect_resistance

            You must think a lot of yourself to think you are making sense and then when you can’t prove your point you throw out insults. Get over yourself it’s not all about you.

          • George Booth

            You can’t even repeat it back to me, much less argue with it. It’s not insulting to note that.

            speaking of someone throwing out insults instead of proving any point, may I point to fiona64 for you to complain to?

            No, it’s not about me, but you won’t talk about anything else. That’s not my fault.

          • expect_resistance

            What the hell are you talking about?

          • George Booth

            And you get an up vote for being such a good example.

          • expect_resistance

            Ooooo a gold star from the MRA troll. I’m so lucky **eyeroll**

          • fiona64

            I know, right? Once he’s really obsessed with you, maybe he’ll threaten to beat you with a tire iron, too (and, of course, try to say that it’s your fault he did it).

            News flash, Georgie: I don’t date outside my species, and I’m only attracted to men. You can stop trying to woo me with your dubious charms now.

          • expect_resistance

            He should listen to the interview on Democracy Now about the documentary “Private Violence.” In the film they show the case of a woman who was kidnapped with her daughter, taken out of state, and beaten for 4 days in front of her daughter.

            http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/22/private_violence_survivors_advocates_confront_victim

          • catseye

            I looked at that film last night. It was amazingly powerful.

          • fiona64

            He’s just mad because we’re not impressed by his “manliness,” poor dear.

          • fiona64


            The central point of the Men’s Rights Movement, and the common position of all Men’s Rights Advocates, is precisely gender equality.

            No, really, it isn’t. It’s about a return to the time before women had any rights. Do let’s be intellectually honest, shall we?


            I’m not going to ‘mansplain’ it for you.

            You’ve done more than enough of that, thanks.

          • George Booth

            “It’s about a return to the time before women had any rights.”

            And you would know that … how? Let me guess. It feels right to you?

            Please, do tell me about this nifty ‘partiarchy’ dodge you’re promoting. Spend some time explaining how women got all their “rights”?

          • fiona64

            Well, a whole slew of women went to jail, and some died, and then some nice men decided that maybe women should be allowed to vote.

            I’m pretty sure that this fits in with your narrative.

            Oh, and then some mean judges decided (in Rideout v. Rideout) that marital rape was a thing … and that women should be entitled to child support … and to get rid of coverture law so that women could own their own property. And some really mean people think that women should be paid the same as a man for doing the same job. It is so hard to be an MRA; look at all the mean things people are doing so that women could have a little independence, and earn 70 cents on the dollar compared to men. It’s a tragedy, what the poor men have to tolerate!

            /sarcasm

          • George Booth

            How many is a ‘slew’? There is a VA cemetery near here with 5,000 and more graves in it. Is 5,000 more or less than a ‘slew’?

            Some nice men decided that women should be allowed to vote, and then some more nice men (?) decided that marital rape was a thing, and then some MORE nice men thought that women ought to get paid as much as men for doing the same job.

            This is the ‘patriarchy’? So the women’s struggle was mostly about women manipulating men to give them stuff? Dew go AWHN!

          • fiona64

            It’s not my fault that you are too stupid to understand sarcasm. Even when it’s spelled out for you …

          • George Booth

            It seemed to me that sarcasm calls for sarcasm in reply. Oh well.

          • lady_black

            Well, there’s this, and all you “manly men” may not be aware of this. Here goes: We can SEE you, and we can HEAR you, and we can read what you’ve written. It’s not about what “feels right.” We know what you think, because you fucking TELL US what you think. We’re not going to over-think it. We’ll take you at your word.

          • George Booth

            lady-black, there are not many, if any, men who advocate returning to a time before women had any rights, as fiona64 asserts.

            the thread devolved into sarcasm and nothing was resolved.

            Face it, she said a stupid thing and you only make yourself look stupid when you defend it.

          • lady_black

            Don’t bother. I’ve been lurking on MRA sites since, well, forever. Years. Face it, you’re here to lie and derail. You think because I’m a woman, you speak it and I believe it. Forget it. I know what the MRA assclowns, and the PUAs and the anti-PUAs are all about. They’ve been oh so clear all along.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            That depends on entirely on the type of MRA. A Voice for Men is openly misogynistic and proudly so. My favorite and most recently example was the dating advice that compared women’s souls to dog waste and other fun comparisons. That’s not touching Elam’s past comments and so much more! But he is not the whole movement, no.

          • George Booth

            Thus I said “the central point” and “common position”, to eliminate those things. Good of you to read that.

            Now, I don’t suppose you’d like to make that clear to fiona64, would you?

            That’s the problem, you see. You may be reasonable and engaged, but you are in a woefully small minority with no power at all. Feminism is defined by the law that the likes of the author and fiona64 get passed. Feminism is what happens, not what is talked about, not its aberrations.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            I was going to engage and then I read further down and saw this gem: “As a brother of his in ACoA, yeah, I’d enjoy seeing him kick your ass. Bob was big on swinging tire irons when he was pissed.”

            If that’s the kind of equality you want, you’re no activist I care to deal with.

          • purrtriarchy

            I remember reading an AVFM comment thread, and an angry christian man was thanking AVFM for working to put lowly women back in the kitchen where they belong – barefoot and pregnant. No one called him out on it.

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            Which is pretty typical in my experience, but there are exceptions and men that have legit concerns. I’ve learned stuff about paternity laws that made me go ‘……’ and it was very valid. Is that the majority of my experiences with MRA’s? No. I’ve encountered far more of misogyny and blaming feminism for climate change and men not getting dates.

          • purrtriarchy

            Yep. They have valid gripes, but they are drowned out by the woman hating extremists.

          • expect_resistance

            No not over my head. It’s simple, feminism is focused on gender equality while the “Men’s rights movement” is not.

          • fiona64

            Exactly. The “Men’s rights movement” is based on misogyny, pure and simple.

          • lady_black

            Bullshit.

          • purrtriarchy

            The MRM, as evinced by Paul Elam and friends, is just as extreme and silly as the feminists who want to ‘castrate all men’. A large majority of MRAs are whiny little brats who get off on scoring victim points. Those of us in the middle think they are just as idiotic as the extreme man haters.

            And RHRC is an egalitarian site. People here are generally fair and no one ever plays the victim card for power over others.

          • George Booth

            purrtriarchy, you’re wrong about RHRC. This thread is evidence of it, for playing the victim card is exactly what has been going on.

            Don’t worry though. RHRC will clean it all up, so that no one will see it.

          • expect_resistance

            If you don’t like it no one is forcing you to stay here. And for your bullshit about the “victim card” complete crap. I may be a victim of abuse from men but I’m a strong woman and a survivor. What hasn’t killed me has made me one tough bitch.

          • George Booth

            You’re a tough bitch? Yet, I find you in this “safe space”.

            I enjoy taunting frauds. There are no victims here.

          • fiona64

            So, you admit you’re trolling … which we could all see anyway.

            Go color while the adults talk.

          • expect_resistance

            I can’t speak for other women who are not in the same place I am. I will not shame and blame women who are victims of violence by men. Saying we are playing the “victim card” downplays and diminishes misogynistic violence by men. I will not engage in victim blaming. A “safe space” is part of a healing process. Part of my toughness is that I have PTSD and I’m always on guard against another attack. I am ever-vigilant.

          • purrtriarchy

            Actually, dipshit, she debates on plenty of open forums. All the news magazines and patheos blogs. And I am a pitter, and even we think that you MRAs are fuckwits.

          • expect_resistance

            Aw, thank purr. :)

          • goatini

            //I enjoy taunting frauds.//

            So go taunt yourself.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          MRA’s big beef is child support. Simple solution = screw other men and leave women alone. Or pay for sex. No child support or custody issues will darken your day. Cry me a river, Piscialetto.

        • aspekx

          while there are abusive women, women who physically, sexually, emotionally, abuse the men, women, and children around them. the statistics point pretty clearly in which direction the majority of this activity takes place: by men against women.

          so when speaking concerning a generalized problem such as male on female violence there shouldn’t have to be a footnote made every page that it’s not all men. you should just be smart enough to get that the discussion being carried on is concerning overall trends.

          it isn’t all men, no one is claiming it is all men, but still individuals such as yourself insist in on coming into a forum where you know this is painful and you take a sharp object and poke the wound.

          why? because you’re afraid you might be equated with men who commit crimes against women every single day in complete disproportion to the number of women committing those same crimes? just to make sure someone heard you say it wasn’t you?

          maybe if you actually cared you might simply offer your sympathies, recognize that you might be offended by some of the talk used here and then move on.

          • George Booth

            I’m offering the same understanding and respect I’m given.

            That’s fair.

            As far as my ‘fear’ of being equated with men who commit crimes, whether I am afraid or not, it happens already and it is – in fact – the purpose of this article to support that.

            I’m not disagreeing with that notion. She author hasn’t said something I take issue with. I am noting that it is utterly self-serving point.

            If you think offering sympathy is a good way to start, demonstrate it? Did I miss where you advised the author of that idea? Can you see that I make the same suggestion to the author that you just did to me, but more justly if painfully?

          • Amanda Lynn Larson

            George: The problem with ‘not all men’ is that it used to derail literally every single conversation I have ever seen about violence against women. We know not men are like that. We know that. We know statistics and more. So to have you come repeat what we already know is not have helpful. It tells us that you need something from us, nothing more.

            If there is an article about what racists are doing and I go say ‘I’m not like this!!!!’ Well. 1) I’m probably like that. 2) I’m derailing and 3) I’m making it about me. If I’m really not like that, I’ve already proven it with my actions. I don’t need to take each article about racism as a personal attack or offensive. *Because I’m not racist*. I don’t need to be make it about me. *I’m not the center of the universe.*

            MRA’s also sometimes get that response if they pull a Paul Elam and cross over into misogyny. If you say something sensible, like domestic violence against men is also a problem? Sure.

          • George Booth

            And there is the very same problem with the ubiquitous “not all women”. Enough women are, and it is used to derail conversation.

            You’re sick of hearing “not all men”? Good! We now have common ground to work from.

            Shall we move on upon this common ground, or will you continue to ascribe to me your own problem of “making it about me.”

          • purrtriarchy

            Not all southerners are racist. So we should probably stop talking about segregation in southern schools and the erosion of voting rights for non whites because we might hurt the feelings of the non racists.

          • lady_black

            If you are truly on the right side, you need to do more than just refrain from being obnoxious and making excuses. You need to call it out when you see it, too. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. It’s true. You can say “not I” and it might even be true. What else are you doing?

          • Arekushieru

            Also, the mainstream narrative ALREADY tends to diminish male on female violence. MRAs feel that if men are not dominating both the women-centered and mainstream conversations that their rights are being stripped from them, however.

        • fiona64

          And I will give you all of the respect due to an MRA: less than none.

          • George Booth

            … and you get an up vote for rising in support of my point as well.

          • fiona64

            Your only point, and the only point of the MRA movement, is that a bunch of men are afraid of losing their hegemony. Have a woman explain the big word to you.

        • lady_black

          That’s what I thought you meant, but I wanted the elaboration. Your post really wasn’t all that clear. I’m sure it was clear in your mind, but in writing, not so much. Now I can answer. You know the thing about “Men’s Rights Activists?” It’s an irrelevant duplication in terms, like “White Power Activist.” Those who have always known power and privilege believe it’s a zero sum game where when others are granted equality, they are losing something. Actually you are losing something, but it’s something you had no natural right to in the first place. You need to lose the entitlement. Women don’t “owe” you anything. They never did. You have no power over her body. No say in her pregnancy. No right to expect sex. I understand it’s hard to admit that, because for too long, men have felt that entitlement. Those are the MRAs, the ones who can’t accept that “the rules” have changed, and they never were “the rules” to begin with.

          • George Booth

            The Sex thing, OK.

            Neither does any man, by natural right, owe any woman anything when she becomes pregnant. Every bit of that is social construct. Do try to tell me my “moral” obligations after having thrown out morality.

            So, social construct is fine – when it benefits women?

            You go for that “natural right” thing, and it’s not going to work out for you. There are way too many mammals demonstrating “natural right” contrary to your interests.

          • lady_black

            You are absolutely correct. You legally owe a woman pregnant by you nothing. Personally, I have never heard of any man being ordered to pay child support for a fetus. When that happens, you may have a point. What your moral obligations might be is pretty much left up to you to decide. The law doesn’t concern itself with what morality ought to be. Morality isn’t to be dictated. When a child is here with feet on the ground, you will be supporting that child if it’s yours, and you will also have rights toward that child (should you choose to exercise them). The law can’t force you to parent. But the law can force you to support your child.

          • George Booth

            I didn’t say legally, and you threw out both the “law” and morality when you said natural rights.

            Now, you bring the law back in, as a weapon. The law gives you the power, and might makes right? That’s not news to me.

          • lady_black

            What in the world are you barking about? Did you even READ my comment before attempting yet again to mansplain how the world works? You glommed onto “natural rights” like that was my entire point. I merely said that men (due to the patriarchy) have come to view certain things as their natural rights. There are no such rights. You don’t get to make NON- EXISTENT “natural rights” the direction of the conversation. I never acknowledged that they existed.

          • George Booth

            OH! It’s a Strawman!

            You can take all those men who believe those “certain things” to be a natural right and burn them at the stake. It’s going to be a cold dark night for you though.

            See? I’ve agreed with you. Are we done?

          • lady_black

            No, I don’t care to burn anyone at the stake. And I have no cold, dark nights. I have no idea what you’re railing about, other than someone’s supposed to kiss your ass because “you aren’t that guy.” Nobody is going to give you an attaboy for acting like a human being. Get used to it. Nobody praises me either for doing nothing more than what I’m supposed to do.

          • George Booth

            At what point did I say anything like “I’m not that guy”?

            So, at what point are you going to do what you’re supposed to do? what ARE you supposed to do, by the way?

          • fiona64

            He’s just another pissed-off white dude who feels threatened by women and thus advocates for violence against us (he said he wanted to see me beaten with a tire iron). Poor little thing.

      • George Booth

        … and you get an up vote for volunteering to be an example in support of my point.

        Thank you.

        • lady_black

          I’m sure you thought your post was self-evident, smartass. It wasn’t.

          • George Booth

            Obviously.

            So I have to wonder if all of this author’s fans actually can read what she write.

  • Robyn Ryan

    Enough men to make women live in fear.

  • fiona64

    Keep scrolling down to see some splendid examples of just what you’re saying.about the arguing …

  • Amanda Lynn Larson

    Let me help you. There are articles about racism. The authors and people that have experiences racism do not need to me to go explain there are good white people in they world. 1) They know this. 2) They know this. 3) They still this. 4) If I’m the kind of person that has to tell them this, I probably have some issues with race in the first place.

    If I’m not a racist? I prove it by my actions. I don’t need to harass people with how not-racist I am. I don’t need to derail conversations. I can hear about racism and still be confident that I’m not a racist. I know it’s not personal and am mad at racism, not people hurt by it.

    So, I would expect the same of women with violence toward men, and men with violence toward women.

  • aspekx

    i wanted to add one final note. i am aware that these are not my forums, that i do not always have the issues or hurdles that others are wrestling with when commenting in threads like this. so i hope that this comes across the right way, and it may not, so feel free to ask for clarification if you feel i have missed something.

    i hope others here will reconsider their engagement with so many of the posters that seem to come here either to prove their innocence or to endlessly argue concerning these topics in a fashion which shows, not that they are interested in real dialogue, but rather that they are simply here to argue.

    at this point it really does seem fairly clear to me that many of the men posting here in opposition are simply attempting to carry out in typing what the people in their lives no longer allow them to do in person.

    anger is of course an entirely appropriate emotion and response. i suppose i am just questioning whether engaging directly with the kind of poster who argues against so much said here is really worth the energy used.

    the angry verbal exchanges and insults, these really are just a means for some people to continue the dysfunctional fighting when they really have no one left in their lives who will do this in person with them.

    post as you like of course, i’m too old to believe that there’s some kind of definitive method of response in conflict.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I agree with you for the most part. MRA trolls cannot be reasoned with and if you argue with them they just double down. George Booth being the teaching example.
      We are rarely invaded like this by MRAs. It is usually pretty quiet here. One or two ineffectual trolls will wander by from time to time, male and female. We even have a pet stalker troll who keeps coming back with new names.

    • cjvg

      I agree in theory. However some statements are just so egregious that it is hard to let them stand without retort

    • fiona64

      The MRAs don’t show up often (thank God) … and they usually leave with their tails tucked between their legs when they discover that we’re neither impressed nor intimidated by their antics.

  • John Anderson

    “We need to believe that if we call the police to get a threatening man
    out of our house, they will not arrest us instead, throw us in jail for
    the crime of self-defense.”

    Now I know your nuts. Women can get a guy arrested even if only he has signs of injury and that because it’s not just women who believe all men are violent even when they’re not, men believe it too.

    http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/brand-what-do-you-do-when-a-girl-hits-you/

    He’s not the only guy with a story like that. An ex-girlfriend tried clawing my eyes out when I broke up with her and of course Jodi Arias was soooo abused. Dude had it coming.

    Yeah right.

    • http://therhymingowl.tumblr.com/ TheRhymingOwl

      The fact that some things are unfair to men
      Does not invalidate what Jaffe says here.
      And when you try to make this about you,
      You only further prove her every fear.

      • John Anderson

        Here the thing. I’ve heard NO men who’ve stated a problem with yesallwomen, however, don’t expect anyone to validate your experiences when you trivialize and invalidate theirs. There is a huge difference in defending and promoting yesallwomen and attacking notallmen.

        • http://therhymingowl.tumblr.com/ TheRhymingOwl

          You’re so far out of touch that you expect us to believe
          That it “invalidates” you as a person when we leave
          A struggle that’s unique to men out of an article
          That isn’t about men at all. What are you trying to pull?

          • Arekushieru

            He obviously thinks that ALL spaces should be dominated by men, including the ones that actually give women a chance to dominate the conversation at least ONCE in their lives. Ugh, what an ass.

        • Shan

          “There is a huge difference in defending and promoting yesallwomen and attacking notallmen.”

          How did you read the article as Jaffe “attacking notallmen”? I got more…”looking askance” at it. Kind of tiredly. And with some pretty well outlined reasons.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          So you are saying that IT IS All MEN?

    • fiona64

      Yep, you’re doing a fabulous job of proving Ms. Jaffe’s point. Way to go!

    • Amanda Lynn Larson

      Right Let’s try science, shall we?
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16180372

      http://www.nij.gov/publications/dv-dual-arrest-222679/ch1/Pages/findings.aspx

      Now. The story there and others *do* happen. It is a legit concern and something I talk to male clients about. But it is not the whole story. It happens to women who defend themselves. Both parties can be arrested. Women abusers are also arrested. And here are the links to back that up. So why don’t you try research instead of making assumptions?

      Edit: I’m just really done with this MRA whine when no one has bothered to Google it, even once. You’re the fourth? guy that’s had this one. No one has fact checked it. No one. No one also seems to know stats around dropped charges, issues around police not being helpful or any of those things. Just this one side of the story. Huh.

    • expect_resistance

      I don’t think you understand but anyway.

      I don’t trust the cops either. Look at what happened to Cecily McMillan. She was groped by a cop to which she elbowed him. She was arrested, tried, and sentenced to 90 days in Rikers Prison for an act of self defense. (http://justiceforcecily.com) I have no trust for male cops. I’ve been harassed by them, and was propositioned for sex by one. I don’t need their abuse either.

      • auntbec

        Oh hell no…start a new thread if we’re going to talk about cops and how they treat women – in general, not to mention once they’ve pulled out all of their “cop-dom” and they are on the job…

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      You are a liar. Take your azz home and tell your Momma. No one here is interested in your whining.

    • Arekushieru

      You people have great difficulty in providing the other side to your stories. For example: How much jail time, if any, did the man receive? How did the officers, judge(s), lawyers and jurors respond to the male defendant’s claims as opposed to a female defendant’s? How often is a male defendant of this particular crime acquitted even when there are clear signs that the female plaintiff has been abused compared to a female defendant being acquitted when there are clear signs that a MALE plaintiff has been abused? THAT is the effing point of the article.

      Btw, the problem is that the patriarchy sets up a society that holds that all men are good while all women are bad. So, even if some men do believe that ‘all’ men are violent, it’s a consequence of not only MISOGYNY, but the PATRIARCHY, that creates that fear, NOT ‘misandry’ (funnily enough not even my browser’s spell check recognizes that last as an actual word. Should tell you something, no?).

  • Amanda Lynn Larson

    No. The term derails. It’s like the discussion about racism. If you’re talking to reasonable people they already know this and don’t need to hear it again. It derails and makes the discussion about you and your feelings. (If they aren’t reasonable, you’re wasting your breath.)

    Articles about racism don’t mean all white people are racist. They don’t mean every person of all color thinks every white person is racist, doesn’t have a white friend or relative that they love. That that POC hasn’t had a good experience. They don’t need to hear ‘but not all white people..!!!’ THEY KNOW.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Louis CK says it all very well:
    A woman saying yes to a date with a man is literally insane and ill-advised, and the whole species’ existence counts on them doing it. I don’t know how they…how do women still go out with guys, when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat to women. Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We’re the worst thing that ever happens to them. That’s true! You know what our number one threat is? Heart disease.

    • expect_resistance

      Thanks for posting that. I love Louis CK.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        He is a good funny man.

        • auntbec

          *snort* *laugh* – he said he would eat a bag of dicks!!!!! I almost died at that line…

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So funny.

      • catseye

        I remember Louis CK when I was on here before my computer died a year and a half ago, He ROCKS!

  • Don Handy

    Prejudiced? Sorry, but this reminds me of the adage that “all black people are alike.”

    • fiona64

      And another MRA shows up to prove Sarah right. Way to go!

    • expect_resistance

      No. Violence against women crosses race and class lines. Violence against women happens worldwide to women regardless of their race or class.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Awwww did we hurt your darling precious feelings? Good.

      I was 15 and at home with my hair in curlers and a husband of one of my Mother’s friends let himself in the front door and came into the parlor to show me his dick. He had his erect dick out of his pants and said “See, I am all ready for you.”

      I had never even seen a dick before except on my infant brother. He was taller than me and outweighed me. I was really scared because it seemed so crazy a thing to do. I started looking around for a place to run. When he saw how freaked out I was, he left, promising to return.

      I was a beautiful girl. It was only the beginning of the unwanted scary sexual assaults I would experience from men in my lifetime.

      And here YOU are come to act the fool and wave your dick around in my parlor again. I am a lot older now. I will cheerfully rip your dick off, nail it to a wall and urinate on your bleeding spasming body, Punk. And now, in my cronehood, I have the will and the tools to do it with.

      Bring it on, NumbNuts. We reduced the last one of your brethren to a stammering yammering pile of bones. Figuratively speaking, of course.

    • Arekushieru

      Nope, all white people are alike would be the ACTUAL analogy. Here, you are proving our point with something that’s ACTUALLY analogous to saying all WOMEN are alike. AW.

  • Petar Pajević

    I think there’s a big divide between “it’s not me” (‘not all men’, at it’s most honest) and “it’s you”.

  • Andrew

    Feminism, the Religion of Peace.

    • A. T.

      We’re not a religion. Do you need some links to help you understand simple concepts better?

      • Andrew

        I’ve read plenty about it. More than you have, I’d wager.

        Brownmiller, Koss, Susan Griffin, Marilyn French, Cheryl Clarke, Judith Butler, Dworkin, Friedan.

        That’s why I’m so sure that it is a religion.

        • goatini

          //More than you have//

          They still let us read, you know. For now, anyway.

          • Andrew

            “They” let you do whatever you want. The idea that you are oppressed in any significant way because of your gender is delusional.

          • fiona64

            The idea that you are oppressed in any significant way because of your gender is delusional.

            I know, right? Why, we should be grateful that we’ve been permitted to vote for less than 100 years, to own our own property for about the same amount of time, to have credit in our own names for about 40 years, and to make 70 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as a man. And that’s to say nothing of how grateful we should be to the (almost always) men who are working to restrict our reproductive rights WRT contraception and abortion. I’m so glad that no one is working to oppress women.

          • Andrew

            Yes, there are many policies that are unfair to women. There are also many policies that are unfair to men. Ever hear of the draft? Can women be sent to faraway lands in order to be eviscerated by flying chunks of metal?

            The right to vote, throughout history, was granted to people that were required to fight and die on behalf of the country. That’s why only men had it. And that ended 40 years ago (as a comparison to your 100 years for women’s vote).

            When women asked to have the vote, they were granted it, with the full support of most men in the society, without the pesky obligation to be killed at the whim of the state.

            Yes, of course, some things are unfair for women, and they always will be, just as other things will always be unfair to men.

          • purrtriarchy

            Actually, the right to vote was originally only extended to property owners. Men got the tight to vote after numerous labour uprisings. Nothing to do with war. Women did not get the right to vote because they were still viewed as PROPERTY and not people.

            Furthermore, more women have died from pregnancy throughout history all because men need a fuck toy and a broodmare.

          • Andrew

            Of course it was connected to war. You are correct that owning property was an additional requirement, but that has nothing to do with my contention that the draft was a primary requirement as well.

            Here in Canada, the age of voting was lowered to 18 due to the fact that men could be drafted at 18. Explain how that has nothing to do with the draft.

            And anyway, even if you were correct that it’s not related to the vote (which you’re not), the draft still existed. The main point is that men have also suffered grave injustice throughout history, just as women have.

            Also, women dying in childbirth is not the fault of men. The all powerful Patriarchy does not have the magical power to alter nature.

          • purrtriarchy

            Women, as property of their husbands, have, throughout history, been expected to provide the man with children and sexual pleasures should he demand it. Marital rape, up until very recently, was not considered a crime, because the woman’s body was the property of the man.

            The reason I pointed out death from childbirth is because you are making a huge deal of how men have died in war. Well, women have died providing men with children and pleasure. Girls still die today from internal hemorrhaging because their husbands want to fuck them at the age of 9 when they are often sold into marriage. And up until the last 100 years, girls could be sold into marriage, in north america, as early as the age of 8. In many US states the age of consent was 10 or lower.

          • Andrew

            Indeed. History was a nightmare, for the vast majority of all people of any gender (as is modern reality, though in many places, to a lesser degree). Few would deny this.

            It’s the contention that men are the cause of it that I take issue with.

          • purrtriarchy

            Patriarchy is the cause of women being treated like farm animals.
            And the point I was making is that you are acting as if only men have ever sacrificed their health and life for the good of society while pretending that maternal mortality isnt worth consideration. Because bitches were made to give birth and act as fucktoys for their male owners.

          • Andrew

            I never acted as if only men sacrificed. I have repeatedly noted, in every single comment, that history has been terrible to men *as well as* women.

            Patriarchy is a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Men were *required* by nature to be the ones doing fighting and hard labor, and protecting women. It was a terrible burden as well as privilege. The same could be said of childbirth and child rearing.

            As soon as society advanced to the point where we were no longer constrained by the brutal realities of nature, society stopped being stratified along gender lines. These changes were brought about mostly by technology (created mostly by men), not by feminism, and many men have been onboard from the beginning (and many more every day).

            The idea that women are terribly oppressed in Western countries today is fanciful. There are still unfair realities that affect both sexes, and there always will be.

          • purrtriarchy

            In egalitarian, hunter gatherer societies, women are the equal of men. It was only with the rise of agriculture and large warlike societies that womens rights were eroded.

            As for your dig about technology being singlehandedly developed and invented by men…lol. Women were not allowed to own property, and they were even forbidden from patenting inventions. Often the invention went in the husbands name. And when one group is denied education and strapped down by nonstop childbearing from puberty to death you sure as hell are not going to have the opportunities that have been afforded to men.

          • fiona64

            As for your dig about technology being singlehandedly developed and invented by men…lol

            Indeed. I hope bonehead there isn’t using a cell phone; the technology was invented and patented by Hedy Lamarr. And that’s only one example of many.

          • Shan

            Oh, great. Here we have another guy wandering in to a specific discussion about specific women’s issues who not only demands to make the conversation about MEN’S issues instead but tries to GASLIGHT on the whole concept of patriarchy.

          • fiona64

            Men were *required* by nature to be the ones doing fighting and hard labor

            Citation really, really, really needed.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I have repeatedly noted, in every single comment, that history has been terrible to men *as well as* women.”

            The point people are making that you are ignoring, is that MEN have historically been much more TERRIBLE to women than the reverse. Not “history” -a non-agent (much less a moral agent)- but MEN- moral agents- have been terrible to women.

            “Patriarchy is a ridiculous conspiracy theory”
            Citation needed.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “changes were brought about mostly by technology (created mostly by men), ”
            Also, I love when men take credit for all of the glorious “technology changes” that happened around the turn of the century, and note that women “didn’t create any of them,” without acknowledging that men didn’t allow women the freedom or education to require the skills needed to advance technology.

          • Suba gunawardana

            “As soon as society advanced to the point where we were no longer
            constrained by the brutal realities of nature, society stopped being
            stratified along gender lines.”

            Wrong. VERY few tribal societies (if any) are still bound by the brutal realities of nature, whereas oppression of women abounds all over the globe. Stoning of rape victims is just one small example of MANY such instances of oppression.

          • lady_black

            BULLSHIT.

          • A. T.

            ‘There are still unfair realities that affect both sexes, and there always will be.’

            This is possibly the only accurate thing you’ve said. If you studied history and gained context for the rest, you’d even have some valid points. Men didn’t give women rights because of technology, any more than people of color were given rights. Any advancement’s come at a prince. Desegregation didn’t happen because people asked nicely. Again, crack a book.

          • cjvg

            It was men who decided that women were not allowed an education. It was men who where so scared of the possibility that some women might still manage to convince someone to let them get an education that they had to pass laws to forbidding that small chance. But you have the nerve to brag that it was men who were smart enough to invent things so the poor stupid women could advance!

            It is a small miracle that there were any women at all who managed to illegally and surreptitiously coble together enough education and the recourses to invent and discover things. It speaks highly to the tremendous drive and will these woman had to learn.

            Men have deliberately and willfully ignored and (violently) repressed the potential that over 50% of the population holds, we as a society would have probably been so much more advanced if men as a group would not have been so insecure and small minded!

          • Arekushieru

            A terrible burden and privilege when men’s was largely one that could be chosen, rather than one like women where they weren’t able to choose anything other than pregnancy and childbirth? Do you really believe that even all women at that time WANTED to be pregnant and give birth? More testament to your… wait for it… wait for it… yes… MISOGYNY. Oops.

          • lady_black

            Since men were in power, whom else would you blame?

          • cjvg

            So who was in charge and made those laws and enforced them you think? Tinkerbell?!
            Women were not even allowed to speak in publiclies or allowed to run for office, please tell me who came up with these laws? The church that consisted solely out of males, society that consisted solely out of male leaders (bar the few queens who were the exception because there were no male heirs)

          • fiona64

            And anyway, even if you were correct that it’s not related to the vote (which you’re not),

            Yes, actually, she is. But hey, rock on with your “poor, oppressed, Caucasian, cisgendered hetero male” trope. I’m sure you find it comforting.

          • fiona64


            Here in Canada, the age of voting was lowered to 18 due to the fact that men could be drafted at 18. Explain how that has nothing to do with the draft.

            It has, frankly, got fuck-all to do with the *historical reasons* for women being denied the vote. But hey, rock on with your bad self. It’s fun to watch you being so dumb.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Men resisted the use of anesthetics in childbirth because the Bible say women must suffer in childbirth. God said so. You are an anus. Nothing comes from you but shyte.

          • Shan

            And remember this guy a few years ago? A MIDWIFE no less?

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5810342/Women-should-go-through-pain-in-childbirth-says-male-midwife.html

            “Over recent decades there has been a loss of ‘rites of passage’ meaning
            to childbirth, so that pain and stress are viewed negatively,” he
            added, arguing that patients should be told labour pain is a timeless
            component of the “rites of passage” transition to motherhood.”

            Yeah, fuck that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            That info is new to me. Fuck that is right.

          • lady_black

            What would you want to bet that this puss-cake would be whining after an hour of labor pains? I think he ought to take his head out of his back passage and let it breathe for awhile. Epidurals are great.

          • Shan

            Also, does he mean that women like me who have labors so easy they don’t even NEED medication are bad mothers if they don’t spend hours or days in screaming agony to birth their children?

            “Pain in labour is a purposeful, useful thing, which has quite a number of benefits, such as preparing a mother for the responsibility of nurturing a newborn baby.”

            Asshat.

          • Arekushieru

            The draft actually makes our point. Thanks for playing!

          • Suba gunawardana

            The presence of some unfair laws does not justify the continuation of others.

            The presence of some laws unfair to men does not justify the continuation or creation of many laws unfair to women.

            ALL unfair laws should be abolished, regardless of to whom they are unfair.

          • Andrew

            Of course! Who ever suggested anything else?

          • Suba gunawardana

            You may not have suggested it outright, but your statement “The idea that you are oppressed in any significant way because of your gender is delusional” implies that you consider the legal & societal oppression of women insignificant, nothing to be concerned about.

            When in reality it’s not insignificant at all. Women have been oppressed far more than men throughout time.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You did.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “When women asked to have the vote, they were granted it, with the full support of most men in the society”

            Citation needed.

            “without the pesky obligation to be killed at the whim of the state.”
            You have a strange idea of what the draft entailed.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And the anus assumes that women have not volunteered and fought and been imprisoned or killed as soldiers in every war we have fought including the Revolutionary War. They have soldiered in every war often disguised as male.

          • fiona64

            The right to vote, throughout history, was granted to people that were required to fight and die on behalf of the country.

            No, actually, it was granted to *property owners.* Due to coverture law, women were automatically excluded.

            Can women be sent to faraway lands in order to be eviscerated by flying chunks of metal?

            Why don’t you ask Tammy Duckworth? Or any number of female combat vets? Here’s a good place to start remedying your ignorance: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/27/america-female-soldiers-bravely-serving-and-dying-in-line-duty/ (I chose a Fox link because you seem like the kind of guy who would only trust that source.)

            When women asked to have the vote, they were granted it

            Yeah, all they had to do was ask, and the nice men just said, “Oh, okay.” That’s why no women were ever beaten, arrested, put in psychiatric hospitals, force-fed, etc., for daring to seek suffrage. I suspect that Emmeline Pankhurst, Susan B. Anthony, and the rest of the so-called “iron-jawed angels” would be a little surprised to learn that all they had to was ask.

            Nice try with the re-writre on history, though.

          • A. T.

            Look up the history of suffrage. What happened to get there. Try reading for once in your life.

            Also, show me who instituted the draft and who sends men to war. Tip: It’s not women. Try this ‘reading’ thing. It’s good for you!

          • Arekushieru

            The draft is a RESULT of misogyny, ignorant ass. You apparently don’t know how privilege works. Were men drafted because they were considered disposable by society while women were considered invaluable to it? Or was it the other way around, as others have pointed out? Oops?

          • A. T.

            Look up the stats for women of color. Try remember more than white women exist, just for a start. Then look up any of the rhetoric around abortion, just to start. It’s fun! :)

            Extra Credit: Look up how people fought the Native American provisions of VAWA because the rape rate on Native reservations was *so* not a problem. It also wasn’t a problem that most rapists and batterers weren’t prosecuted, given the overload on federal prosecutors and inability of state or tribal ones to do so.

            And a 100 other examples. But don’t let me get in the way of your ignorance and going about the draft, which women were totally in charge of, k?

          • MeteorBlades

            Thanks for taking note of the reservation rapes. Only on the national radar momentarily and then, like most things Indian, forgotten again.

          • A. T.

            You’re welcome. I try to signal boost that and ICWA issues (adoption, South Dakota, etc) when I can. ._.

            It’s also a pet peeve that MRA’s seem to think that all women are white. >_o

          • purrtriarchy

            http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/young-lakota/

            Really disgusting, to hear all of the religious right wing fucks talk about forcing all Lakota women and girls to give birth even in cases of rape and incest. And the sick fucks talk about forcing these girls to give birth as showing love for them.

          • goatini

            The idea that 5000+ years of institutionalized patriarchy and misogyny has been completely alleviated in the last 50 years is what IS delusional.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You have read only modern feminists? And only female feminists? Do you actually know the scientific definition of religion? Your definition is not it.

        • fiona64

          What, no de Beauvoir?

          You need to get out more.

          Oh, and to recognize that the radical idea that women are people is not religious in nature.

          Thanks in advance.

        • A. T.

          Right. Tell me the dates on these writers, particularly Dworkin. Then look up feministing. Or this website. Or bell hooks. Then try again and stop trolling. Thanks!

          • expect_resistance

            I love bell hooks.

        • expect_resistance

          No. Feminism is a philosophy not a religion.

  • auntbec

    Welcome to the conversation…It is HUGELY important. I’m so sorry for you because of the understanding…

  • catseye

    It may help to use the analogy of the bowl of M&M’s where every 10th candy is poisoned. The poisoned candies scare off everybody from eating them, even though 90% of the candies are NOT poisoned.
    If you find a poisoned candy and throw it out of the dish, it helps.

  • grantal

    I have been scared of men since I was a child. I have gone for help to try and find out why but to no avail. I had no dad until I turned 5 and my mom remarried. So why the fear? I am starting to think it is ingrained in women from birth. I hate it. I was married to an abusive man mostly verbally but he threatened me for years until I started to feel I was losing my mind and broke down sending him out. I stood up to him finally and you know what I was so angry he backed down. Now I fear no one. I could care less if you have loaded gun pointed at me( and I have) I will fight you or die trying. that is my attitude now but it took me almost 50 years to get. Way to long. All men threaten women because they are usually stronger and can do damage and have brutal anger at times and don’t tell me otherwise!

  • revelveteen

    This makes me sad. First, I certainly acknowledge how horrific these events are; I’ve been through and continue to experience attacks and disrespect from men on many levels just for being female. I do understand how the concept “not all men” isn’t helpful as a response to such situations, but ultimately, that doesn’t make it untrue. If we don’t acknowledge them and start our work with the men who ARE decent and supportive, how are we to bring others in to join us?

    I just don’t see how claiming every single person who identifies as male is automatically to be feared will help any of us to understand, or cooperate, or be stronger. I feel like saying such things does more to spread hopelessness and suspicion, and it’s basically also judging people by their gender. I will not do that, just as I won’t allow it to be done to me.

    Please continue to speak out about injustice, but I’d also love to see what you have to say about how we can work together to lay the groundwork for change and inclusion of all genders.

    • Shan

      “I just don’t see how claiming every single person who identifies as male
      is automatically to be feared will help any of us to understand, or
      cooperate, or be stronger.”

      That’s not how I took what the author is saying. I don’t think she means “Don’t Tell Me It’s Not All Men” because all men are “……” but rather saying “Don’t Tell Me It’s Not All Men…when addressing women talking about their #yesallwomen experiences.” Because that’s one of those space-hijacking behaviors that a lot (no, probably not ALL) men engage in without even realizing they’re doing it. You can see it all over this thread, if all the posts haven’t been deleted yet.

      It’s the interrupting a conversation and/or derailing the topic toward something THEY want to talk about instead. Like the men who unselfconsciously take up all the space in public seats by sitting with their knees three feet apart and using up both armrests. (There’s a whole blog dedicated to it, with a sub-blog dedicated to men who justify it: http://mentakingup2muchspaceonthetrain.tumblr.com/post/61771080784/men-defending-their-balls-a-superpoem . No, not ALL men do that. But the men who DO persist in doing it – even when it’s been pointed out to them that it’s RUDE – apparently think they have the right to continue doing it, because otherwise their their penii would feel all squished and uncomfortable. Metaphorically, I guess. Like whoever is sitting next to them.

  • George Booth

    The irony of posting an anti-censorship link that must be deleted is too tempting and too easy.

    This is for all those here who refused to address the issue raised and instead made the discussion all about me ( while saying that I was not to make it about me ), this is for *you*:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/27vnan/as_a_woman_i_came_here_expecting_a_load_of_bull/ci4u3ur

    Some other time, Feminists. Your 3 minutes are up.