Why We Need to Ban ‘Conscientious Objection’ in Reproductive Health Care


Do health-care professionals have the right to refuse to provide abortions or contraception based on their “conscientious objection” to these services? Many pro-choice activists would retort, “No way! If you can’t do your job, quit and find another career!” We agree with them, and have detailed why in our new paper, “‘Dishonourable Disobedience’: Why Refusal to Treat In Reproductive Healthcare Is Not Conscientious Objection.”

Reproductive health care is the only field in medicine where freedom of conscience is accepted as an argument to limit a patient‘s right to a legal medical treatment. It is the only example where the otherwise accepted standard of evidence-based medicine is overruled by faith-based actions. We argue in our paper that the exercise of conscientious objection (CO) is a violation of medical ethics because it allows health-care professionals to abuse their position of trust and authority by imposing their personal beliefs on patients. Physicians have a monopoly on the practice of medicine, with patients completely reliant on them for essential health care. Moreover, doctors have chosen a profession that fulfills a public trust, making them duty-bound to provide care without discrimination. This makes CO an arrogant paternalism, with doctors exerting power over their dependent patients—a throwback to the obsolete era of “doctor knows best.”

Denial of care inevitably creates at least some degree of harm to patients, ranging from inconvenience, humiliation, and psychological stress to delays in care, unwanted pregnancy, increased medical risks, and death. Since reproductive health care is largely delivered to women, CO rises to the level of discrimination, undermining women’s self-determination and liberty. CO against providing abortions, in particular, is based on a denial of the overwhelming evidence and historical experience that have proven the harms of legal and other restrictions, a rejection of the human rights ethic that justifies the provision of safe and legal abortion to women, and a refusal to respect democratically decided laws. Allowing CO for abortion also ignores the global realities of poor access to services, pervasive stigma, and restrictive laws. It just restricts access even further, adding to the already serious abrogation of patients’ rights.

CO in reproductive health care should be dealt with like any other negligent failure to perform one’s professional duty: through enforcement and disciplinary measures, including possible dismissal or loss of license, as well as liability for costs and any negative consequences to victims. Because abortion and contraception are integral elements of women’s reproductive health care, those who would refuse to provide those services because of a personal or religious objection should not be allowed to enter disciplines that deliver that care, including family medicine and the obstetrics-gynecology specialty.

Unfortunately, a global consensus seems to have emerged among (pro-choice) medical professionals that clinicians do indeed have a right to deny reproductive health care that they personally disagree with. A recent example of this consensus was a special supplement called “Conscientious Objection to the Provision of Reproductive Healthcare,” published by the International Journal of Gynecology and Obstetrics (IJGO) in December. The supplement contains five pieces on the topic: an editorial, three short articles, and a long white paper by three physicians from Global Doctors for Choice. The latter paper does a very good job of presenting all the various laws, regulations, and policies on CO around the world, revealing a huge variation in requirements and standards and almost no enforcement against the abuse of CO.

However, all the articles (posted in full here) suffer from a glaring contradiction. Each simply assumes without question that health-care providers have the right to CO, yet each devotes considerable space to documenting the systemic harms caused by the exercise of CO. None of the articles can cite a single benefit of CO in health care, other than respecting clinicians’ “right” of conscience. One paper does give an example of legitimate CO: refusing to participate “in the process of interrogation of suspects, which may include procedures reaching the limits of torture.” But refusing to subject people to torture is completely different than refusing to deliver legal, essential, common medical care that all women expect and are entitled to.

Likewise, CO in reproductive health care has nothing in common with CO in the military. The basic premise of conscientious objection is to refrain from doing harm or violence against others, but this is turned upside down in reproductive health care. Abortion and contraception preserve the health and lives of women, while doctors practicing CO put women’s health and lives at risk. CO in reproductive health care is actually a reflection of stigma against abortion and women’s autonomy, not CO in the true sense of that term. It is an attempt to claw back the legality of abortion and return women to their traditional roles of wife and mother, producing soldiers and citizens for the state. We also see it as a form of revenge by organized religion for its loss of power in a world dominated by democracy, self-determination, and evidence-based science and medicine.

To be fair, the journal authors’ unquestioned acceptance of CO appears to be based on the position of higher authorities, specifically the United Nations and the World Health Organization, as well as FIGO, the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (which publishes the journal that produced the supplement on CO). Generally speaking, the current consensus of World Health Organization, FIGO, and other health bodies grants the refusal to treat under the excuse of CO for health-care professionals, but only if the objector refers the patient appropriately to a clinician who can provide the service. Further, objectors must dispense accurate information on all available treatment options, and provide emergency care regardless of their personal beliefs.

As our article documents, the obligation to refer is systematically ignored or abused. Many, if not most, anti-choice doctors cannot be trusted to refer because they feel this still makes them “complicit.” Also, their idea of “accurate” information on abortion or contraception may bear little relation to the actual evidence and too often strays into ideology and moral judgment. In terms of emergency care, some anti-choice doctors will let women die rather than do an abortion, regardless of the law or any CO requirements, as has occurred in Poland, Ireland, and elsewhere. Since doctors will express different opinions about a particular woman’s risk of death anyway, it’s easy for doctors to refuse treatment and deny culpability if something goes wrong.

Expecting doctors to make the required compromises in their exercise of CO rests on the misconception that they will be rational. But we can’t trust people to set aside deeply held beliefs that have already been deemed strong enough to invoke CO. As soon as we allow any degree of CO, we’ve made medical care contingent on the provider’s personal or religious beliefs, instead of the patient’s right to health care. Further expansions of CO cannot even be opposed with evidence-based arguments since we’ve already ceded the ground to religious doctrine.

To a large extent, the journal articles represent an attempt to define criteria to regulate the exercise of CO, in accordance with WHO and UN guidelines. The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Health has recommended that states should “ensure that conscientious objection exemptions are well-defined in scope and well-regulated in use and that referrals and alternative services are available in cases where the objection is raised.” The white paper by Global Doctors for Choice contains several policy recommendations toward that end, such as standardizing a definition of CO, developing eligibility criteria for objectors, registering objectors, and defining objector obligations to refer, give accurate information, and provide emergency treatment.

But why should health bodies like FIGO or WHO waste their time and resources helping health-care providers shirk their duties and deny legitimate care to patients? Why should entire health systems be burdened by having to recruit additional non-objecting providers, ensure alternate providers are always available, develop eligibility criteria for CO, register objectors, and train them on CO limits and obligations?

The fundamental contradiction of CO is revealed in the attempts to limit it. FIGO’s directive is a typical example: “Assure that a physician’s right to preserve his/her own moral or religious values does not result in the imposition of those personal values on women.” But when physicians are permitted the “right” to preserve their own values, they automatically impose those values onto women and deny them necessary care.

Likewise, the tolerance of CO by Global Doctors for Choice contradicts their own policy statement, which says:

Doctors offer scientific authority. They’re devoted to their patients’ best interests and they have a first-hand familiarity with the devastating consequences that can result from lack of care. … Global Doctors for Choice believes that physicians’ commitment to the scientific process and to the best interests of their patients compels them to advocate on behalf of universal access to comprehensive, evidence-based reproductive health care.

But if you allow CO, health care is no longer comprehensive, it’s no longer based on science and evidence, it’s no longer in the patient’s best interests, and doctors are no longer committed to any of the above. The lack of care can harm or even kill women, which should qualify as “devastating consequences.” So why is Global Doctors for Choice helping to regulate a practice that fundamentally violates everything they supposedly stand for?

We recognize that the attempt to “balance” a physician’s right to CO with a patient’s right to treatment is well-intentioned, and is a response to the global reality of widespread CO. But let’s not be fooled by the fraudulent promotion of the term “conscientious objection” by religious and anti-choice groups to deny women’s right to health and life. CO in reproductive health care is not true CO at all, but dishonorable disobedience. It should be dealt with accordingly.

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  • blfdjlj

    Can a vegetarian work for a butcher and refuse to do his job due to “conscience”? No.

    There’s no reason why anyone should be allowed to refuse to carry out basic duties.

    • BJ Survivor

      Can a teetotaler work as a clerk in a grocery store and refuse to sell alcohol? Of course not, because some MAN might be inconvenienced and that would be totally unacceptable. But it’s only women’s lives we’re talking about here, so who give a fuck? Apparently, even so-called “allies” don’t.

    • Arekushieru

      Although, I think a distinction can be made between denying services because of a rights-based conscience (meaning animal rights movement) and those that are denied in OPPOSITION to a rights-based conscience (such as denying a woman an abortion).

      • lady_black

        Of course, no animal rights activist would be seeking work in a slaughterhouse or butcher shop. So that’s a moot point. If he does seek that kind of work, he can’t refuse to do the job.

        • Arekushieru

          Wasn’t my point.

  • BJ Survivor

    Funny how it’s only healthcare pertinent to female bodies that anyone thinks is a-okay to impose their backward superstitions upon. But we’re totes in a post-sexist society. And their is no rape culture.

    • MaryB435

      We need to understand the REASON that a doctor or nurse would object to abortion. You implied it is because of a “backward superstition”. But is that really plausible? the reason I object to this is because of what abortion IS. It is the intentional killing of an innocent baby. This is wrong, and no-one should be forced to participate. This is a hard thing to hear, but it is true. Is it REALLY likely that doctors and nurses-who clearly understand anatomy-are relying on “backward superstitions” to inform their thoughts?

      Post-abortion syndrome is a reality. Many women who advocate so strongly for abortion are those who are bitter after they have been deeply hurt by a man. So many post-abortive women have gone through severe denial, grief, and uncontrollable anger/rage after abortion. But there is hope. Project Rachel is a lifeline to women grieving a lost child. Many women have told how much they have been helped to heal through Project Rachel.

      You mention a rape culture. I agree, rape is absolutely evil, and we must do everything we can to stop it. The only positive thing is that rape is AGAINST the law HERE. (But not everywhere) There are many cultures in which women have NO rights. We should spend our energies trying to do what we can to help them. There is a woman in Sudan, Mariam Ibrahim, (Google the name) who is imprisoned and sentenced to death. Her crime? She married a Christian man. This goes against Sudanese (Sharia) Law. She is shackled, sentenced to be whipped 100 times, then hanged to death in 2 years when her baby is weaned. This is absolutely barbaric, but over there, it’s legal.

      Legal and right are not always the same thing. We must be very careful that our laws are based upon genuine justice. And this justice must have reality as its foundation.

      • purrtriarchy

        Abortion is self defense. If a woman does not want something inside her body, it is her right to remove it.

        Pregnancy maims and kills. 300k women die worldwide from pregnancy. A further 20million are permanently injured. Millions more barely escape death. It does not matter whether a zef is innocent or guilty. As long as it is within a woman, as long as it is hurting her and infringing on her rights, she can evict it from her body.

        The guinea worm is “innocent” like a zef. By your logic, no one should ever take antibiotics to kill the worm, because it does not intend to hurt its host. Its just trying to exist, right?

      • Suba gunawardana

        Please stop making unwarranted assumptions:
        “Many women who advocate so strongly for abortion are those who are bitter after they have been deeply hurt by a man.”

        -I am a strong advocate of choice (not necessarily abortion, since I would not advocate forced abortion like you advocate forced birth), and I have never been hurt by a man. I personally know many women who are advocates of choice, who also were never hurt by a man.

        -Also what’s the logic in that assumption? If you were hurt by a man, how would having an abortion solve the problem? Shouldn’t you do something about the man, or men in general?

        ” So many post-abortive women have gone through severe denial, grief, and uncontrollable anger/rage after abortion. ”

        Again a blatant bold-faced lie. In real life I have NEVER met a woman who regrets abortion. The only “abortion-regretters” are to be found on-line on forced-birth sites, and I am not even sure if they ever had an abortion. They are either lying for the cause, or they;ve been brainwashed to feel regret.

        ” I agree, rape is absolutely evil, and we must do everything we can to stop it.”

        What is rape? Forced sex, i.e. invasion of your body without your consent. What is abortion denial? forced pregnancy & forced birth, i.e. invasion of your body without your consent.

        How can you support one while opposing the other? They are the SAME.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          “The only “abortion-regretters” are to be found on-line on forced-birth sites, and I am not even sure if they ever had an abortion. They are either lying for the cause, or they’ve been brainwashed to feel regret.’
          …………..
          Agree. I would add they are the kind of woman who need to be the center of attention as well.

      • purrtriarchy

        Many women who advocate so strongly for abortion are those who are bitter after they have been deeply hurt by a man

        Citation needed from a scholarly article tia.

        Legal and right are not always the same thing

        So you believe that it is morally right to enslave women?

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        The Law is not moral. And that is a good thing because morality is subjective for each person. When “moral” laws are made, all hell breaks loose. Prohibition being the most handy example.

        And the rape laws in Sudan are “moral” laws. And they date from Biblical times when if a woman did not scream loud enough when she was raped was stoned. All the Abrahaminic religions are anti woman to a great degree and they are based on presumed “sexual morality.”

      • fiona64

        It is the intentional killing of an innocent baby

        So many histrionics! My goodness.

        All babies, everywhere, have been born. So, if you know anyone going around killing babies, please alert your local law enforcement agency; infanticide is a crime.

        If you are referring to the fetus, well, you kind of botched it there as well. Fetii are not conscious; thus, they can neither be innocent nor guilty. If the fetus is “innocent,” of what is the born, sapient, sentient woman “guilty,” in your book?

        Post-abortion syndrome is a reality.

        BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

        No, it isn’t. Former surgeon-general C. Everett Koop was specifically tasked by anti-choice President Ronald Reagan with finding proof of so-called PAS. And do you know what he determined?

        That it does not exist.

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10294679

        You can go back to LieSiteNews now, sweetie. Bye-bye.

      • Arekushieru

        It seems someone needs to explain conscientious objection to you, once again. Also, abortion is NOT the intentional killing of an innocent unborn baby. For one, a fetus is not a baby. A fetus isn’t killed during an abortion (since the medical cause of death is described as incompatibility with life upon separation from the uterus) nor is it the intention to do so. Never heard of blighted ovum? There is no living fetus present in an anembryonic pregnancy but an abortion can be performed just the same, after all. Finally, a FETUS can be neither innocent nor guilty. Y’know who IS definitely innocent, however? The woman you want to erase (even though you are one, yourself). Oops.

        Post-Abortion syndrome is a made-up term that isn’t recognized by the body of medical professionals designated to study the empirical data on such types of new medical diagnoses. If it isn’t even recognized by them, then why would you expect a typical civilian to accept that there is any such thing as PAS in the first place? Besides, the only reasons women who report depression after having an abortion give are either depression/mental illness that originated before or separately from the pregnancy itself, stigma, shame, harassment, stalking, etc… from anti-choice ilk such as yourself, a WANTED pregnancy that turned oh so very wrong, the abortion was coerced, etc…. NOT from the abortion, ITSELF. However, women who report depression after continuing a pregnancy give the pregnancy itself as a reason. Andrea Yates, anyone? So, if you want to ban abortion because women may experience regret/guilt and/or depression after having one, then you also have to ban pregnancy for the same reason. Oops.

        Yeah, you expect to END misogyny and rape culture by contributing FURTHER to misogyny and rape culture? Making abortion illegal not only denies women the same rights as their male counterparts, it also makes rape legal under circumstances where intent cannot be investigated, after all. Sharia law is congratulated by people like you when it is used by the ‘superior’ WHITE person, but then condemned when it is used by the ‘other’, meaning persons of colour, of course. So, as you can see, you have your bigotry reversed.

        Yes, legal and right are not always the same thing. After all, legally being able to force gestation on a woman shouldn’t be right just because it’s legal. OOOOOOPPPPPPSSSSS!!!!!!!!

      • goatini

        //Post-abortion syndrome is a reality. //

        No, it isn’t, but “Father” Frank Pervert, the misery pimp, makes a pile of tax-free dough with NO oversight whatsoever off of selling his false blame, false shame, and false guilt to innocent citizens who have committed NO crime.

  • http://oursilverribbon.org/ adolmd

    Pediatricians need to provide reproductive healthcare too. Teenagers need confidential reproductive health care e.g. birth control, STD testing, pregnancy testing and abortions. And Internal Medicine MDs too need to provide reproductive health care. and this applies to Pharmacists too. GREAT article!!

    • BJ Survivor

      Right? There are plenty of specialties where their poor wittle religtarded fee-fees will not be offended – gastroenterology, urology, cardiology, nephrology, etc. They should not have a special right to refuse to provide necessary care or be in a position to cram their retarded superstitions down the throats of women who don’t share those idiotic beliefs.

  • Ella Warnock

    **This makes CO an arrogant paternalism, with doctors exerting power over
    their dependent patients—a throwback to the obsolete era of “doctor
    knows best.”**

    So. Much. This. But I think it’s actually “MAN knows best.”

  • JamieHaman

    If a doctor or nurse is a so called conscientious objector” please pay the price for your conscience! Get out of the medical field, get into some other line of work. Don’t make Others pay the price for your conscience.

  • David Young

    so by your standards then Cosmetic Surgeons are not in the medical field in the true sense of the word.

    you neeed to get an education on what medical means, you seem to think that saving lives is all its about and that is completely bogus!

    and you need to learn to keep your FAITH to yourself, or accept the anger your get in response, if you shouldn’t talk about politics and religion at a party, then it’s safe to say you shouldn’t bring up such things in PUBLIC !

    and there should be NO LAWS on the books that back any faiths beliefs, COMMON sense is all thats needed, and for those to stupid to put that to use, they should NOT have a voice in the world because all that will come from a moron is moronic ideas !

  • Ramanusia

    What’s astounding is that you think that Reproductive Health is not an actual part of medicine, or that it’s all about abortion. It’s as if you think you live in the time of Hippocrates, a time in which pregnancy and obstetric care was administered by midwives and not by “physicians”.

    There is no euphamism here just your ignorance and lack of understanding. Induced abortion is a part of obstetric care, dependent on the circumstances of the patient, choosing not to provide a patient all of the necessary care that she requires based on the POLITICS of the physician is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath, and the modern principles of medical ethics. If a physician would like to avoid providing a woman an induced abortion if she requires it, then he should refrain from practicing in a field where he might be called upon to choose his personal politics over what is in the best interests of his patient. It’s astounding to live in an age where people like you advocate discriminative treat of patients in need of care based on politics or religion.

    Make no mistake, your argument isn’t logical, it’s not factual, it’s not ethical, it’s no moral, it’s all about allowing a indefensible practice where a physician or other healthcare professional gets to violate the law, the standard practices and requirements of his profession to the detriment of his patient’s right to access impartial and professional level of care and that patient’s right to life and competent care.

    If you cannot follow the standards of care and the laws of the land, GET OUT OF THE FIELD. Pretending that denying health care to women based on personal bias is somehow an instance of the biased, incompetent individual violating the rules and ethics of his profession … THAT is just moronic. If you can’t do the job, or your religion/politics get in the way of you obeying the law of the land or the requirements of your profession, you’re not qualified to practice, nor are you honoring the oaths you actually took.

  • Ramanusia

    Abortion literally has nothing to do with infants. Infancy begins at birth. Women are human too, and if you choose to shirk your duty by denying her the care she needs, you have a moral obligation and an imperative to find yourself a profession which doesn’t not violate your narrow minded beliefs.

  • dennis

    I am fine with pharmacists not providing the morning after pill and medical professionals not providing legally available procedures due to their conscience…..all they need to do is pay to have another professional on site all the time they are on site so consumers can obtain that which they have the legal right to get. I notice that most anti-choice folks won’t put their money where their mouths and hearts and souls are…..if you want no abortion then cover the costs of bearing and raising the child, simple equation, take responsibility and be accountable…..yes the woman is pregnant and is taking responsibility by seeking an abortion if she is not in position to want and care for a child should one be born.

    • Arekushieru

      Would like to point out however that some women still do not want to be pregnant no matter what expenses of pregnancy are covered (myself included).

      The rest of your post is SPOT ON.

      • dennis

        And that is how it should be…and you should be able to safely terminate your pregnancy. Just as if you do opt to have a child both of you should be able to live free of hunger with shelter and medical care. This is not a “free” deal but just as most folks idealize a small town communal feeling they should realize that along with that sense of belonging comes the responsibility to be the good neighbor and charitable friend that builds such a small town community.

    • Jennifer Starr

      I’m not fine with it. I fail to see why their ‘conscience’ should come above the right of customers to have a legally valid prescription filled. And since no one is making the pharmacist ingest contraception, their ‘conscience’ should have no part in the matter. It’s the customer that matters. If they can’t do their job and fill prescriptions, maybe another profession should be considered. I do whole-heartedly agree with the rest of your statement. Well said :)

      • dennis

        My call for the pharmacist or medical professional having to pay out of their own pocket to have a second one on hand at all times since they refuse to fulfill their duty due to conscience will likely soon wear their consciences thin. While at the same time providing employment to a true professional.
        My tongue is firmly planted in my cheek.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Understood completely :)

  • Suba gunawardana

    Those who object to providing medical care have no business being in the medical field.

  • Shannon Martinez

    I am really tired of other people’s feelings. Feel your feelings at home, shut your pie-hole and leave your religion there too,because once I am in the office i don’t care and it doesn’t matter If I want gods’ opinion I am perfectly capable of going to church and asking.

  • cjvg

    Infants are already born. Where did you get your medical education, it is severely lacking!

  • cjvg

    Childbirth and pregnancy have a 14 times higher risk of death for the woman. Every abortion is the best medical choice when claiming respect for life as your main motivator. Abortion is the one choice that offers the best chance to protect the woman’s life and health! Yes, women are actually a life and as such do deserve respect for their lives!

    Purporting that “respect” for life precludes you from providing abortion care is thus a hypocritical position that completely discards respect for the existing life before you (the woman), in favour of the potential life (the embryo/fetus) that might never realize!

    14 times more women die or are injured from childbirth and pregnancy then from abortions! The complete study can be found in the journal Obstetrics & Gynecology: June 2012 – Volume 119 – Issue 6 – p1271–1272
    The Comparative Safety of Legal Induced Abortion and Childbirth in the United States, Raymond, Elizabeth G. MD, MPH; Grimes, David A. MD

    Some excerpts;
    -”Researchers found that women were about 14 times more likely to die during or after giving birth to a live baby than to die from complications of an abortion.”

    -”The researchers on the new study combined government data on live births and pregnancy- and abortion-related deaths with legal abortions performed in the U.S. from the Guttmacher Institute, which conducts sexual and reproductive health research and education.”

    -”Dr. Elizabeth Raymond from Gynuity Health Projects in New York City and Dr. David Grimes of the University of North Carolina School of Medicine, Chapel Hill, found that between 1998 and 2005, one woman died during childbirth for every 11,000 or so babies born.”
    -”That compared to one woman of every 167,000 who died from a legal abortion.”

    -”In their report, published in the journal Obstetrics & Gynecology, The Dr’s Raymond and Grimes write that the findings aren’t surprising given that women are pregnant for a lot longer when they decide to have a baby and so have more time to develop complications.”

    -”Dr Harwood said previous studies have also shown the safety of legal abortions.”

    -”Harwood said that laws regarding what’s said between the doctor and a woman seeking an abortion often hamper doctors’ attempts to inform patients in a medically sound, accurate and balanced way, increasing the risk of complications”

    -” the new report, which helps dispel “misinformation” and “lies” about abortion risks included in some state laws — such as the idea that abortion is linked to cancer.”

    -”a study from the CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) which found that, from 1998 to 2001, the most common complications associated with pregnancy — including high blood pressure, urinary tract infections and mental health conditions — happened more often in women who had a live birth than those who got an abortion.” http://www.cdc.gov/

    All the medical research agrees, providing an abortion is fully complying with the Hippocratic Oath, there is actually a very good case to be made that to recommend continuing a pregnancy is recklessly and willfully endangering the patients life!

    Obviously these sites and these researchers are all respected fully licensed health care professionals and doctors, so you might want to dismiss their knowledge as irrelevant in favor of your anti-choice sites since they are more likely to agree with you

  • cjvg

    Do you even realize that reproductive health care is what obstetricians and gynecologist provide? That is what their specialty is! Reproductive health care includes pap smears, tubelegations, labor and delivery, vaginal exams, breast exams, contraceptive consultation and yes abortion.

    So you tell me what type of care an ob/gyn provides if it is NOT reproductive health care? They treat everything pertaining to the reproductive organs, but hey I guess you prefer to call it the magic baby hole care!

  • JamieHaman

    Spoken like a man who will never be pregnant. STFU.

  • lady_black

    Wrong, Sluggo. If a doctor doesn’t want to do an abortion, she/he doesn’t go into obstetrics or gynecology, because it isn’t a question of ‘if’ but ‘when’ there will be a case where an abortion is required. Reproductive healthcare is not a “euphemism for abortion.” It encompasses all areas of OB/GYN practice, including the testing for and treatment of disease, contraception including surgical sterilization, prenatal care and birthing, cancer screening and treatment, and yes, sometimes abortion. Real medical professionals know that waiting until an emergency becomes life-threatening before delivering the needed care often results in death and unnecessary lifelong harm to patients. As far as elective abortions go, the overwhelming majority (98%) are done in the first trimester, and the majority of those first trimester abortions are done by the ninth week. Those are none of your business. Actually NONE of them are your business.

  • lady_black

    Infants are treated by a pediatrician or family practice specialist. Infants are not treated by gynecologists.

  • John

    The Elephan in the room this article misses is this: there is still widespread debate and uncertainty as to what moral status to attach to the unborn child. Scientifically when know it is a human organism, just like you and me, with a future like ours. Of course, it forms part of the mother’s body as well. But the analogy with other forms of treatment is biased and unfair. The truth is, philsophically and scientifically, as a community, we are still unsure about concepts such as ensoulment, whether people come about gradually etc. I won’t go into the debates here and now, but needless to say, they are there, and that is reflected even more so in public opinion. That being the case, there is every reason to suggest that is a “special case” (since we are dealing with the ambiguously worded “special status” of the embryo according to UK Law). Its a case where ethical judgements are useful and a one-size fits all is not necessarily helpful. Everyone has a worldview, and the moment we separate doctors from ethics over such an ethical topic, we are in very murky waters indeed.

    • BJ Survivor

      The answer is simple: don’t go into a medical field where your misogynistic superstitions may require you to perform a procedure that will save the only life that can be saved, the pregnant woman’s.

    • cjvg

      This is such a red herring, and it continues to be trotted out like a horse on parade ground every time someone wants to obfuscate the truth.

      Since we have a pretty clear consensus about when live ends, we are perfectly able to determine when live begins.

      In this country and most advanced first world countries, it is legally and morally acceptable to use human beings who are declared brain dead for organ harvesting.
      It stands to reason that a fetus who does not (yet) display the level and kind of brain activity that we use to establish if a patient is considered still alive must be considered legally dead.

      Multiple and intensive data on EEG tests on preemies clearly indicates that that threshold starts at 26-29 weeks, long after viability at 24 weeks where a legal abortion can no longer be obtained barring extra ordinary circumstances.

      Obviously the woman or girl involved is clearly and irrefutably alive, when professing respect for life, naturally our sole concern must be with the life that is and not a nebulous potential

    • Arekushieru

      Concepts of ‘ensoulment’, personhood, etc are entirely irrelevant when it comes to a woman seeking to exercise her constitutional rights and a doctor performing the duties he/she is required to perform as part of his/her JOB.

    • lady_black

      I’m pretty sure about “ensoulment.” Pretty sure it doesn’t happen at all, even when considering the Bible as a source of guidance. The words translated as “soul” refer to breathing. Therefore a soul is a body that is breathing, whether animal or human. From the first breath to the last, you are a soul.

      • Arekushieru

        Yup. A fetus doesn’t breathe in the uterus, otherwise it would ‘drown’.

        • lady_black

          A fetus does breathe in the amniotic fluid, but it’s an inconsequential reflex. The fetus is not dependent upon it’s environment for oxygen and will never “drown.” It receives all the oxygen it needs from the pregnant woman’s bloodstream. She is breathing for it.

          • Arekushieru

            I would think that breathing in too much amniotic fluid would damage the lungs, eventually, though? And there was a reason why I put quotes around the word drown.

          • lady_black

            No, it doesn’t damage the lungs. It exercises the muscles that will be needed for breathing on the outside. At birth, fluid is expelled by postural drainage and/or suctioning. The “breathing” of amniotic fluid during gestation is “practice breathing” but does not provide the fetus with any oxygen, because of course the fetus gets oxygenated through the woman’s blood stream.

          • Arekushieru

            Just curious, btw:

            Are we getting our lines of communication crossed? Because, I believe, drowning occurs when someone takes in too much fluid into their bodies? And if their airway is blocked, it’s simply asphyxiation? So, even if a fetus doesn’t drown, per se, wouldn’t the other effects of taking in too much fluid (in the same manner that would normally cause drowning) be exactly the same as it is in born humans?

            Besides, the fetus can’t take all of the amniotic fluid in at once, would they, not only because their lungs are most likely smaller, but because there is plenty of fluid in the sac before birth, as you previously mentioned?

          • lady_black

            No.

          • purrtriarchy

            This might help:
            http://www.embryology.ch/anglais/rrespiratory/phasen01.html

            I didn’t read all of it, but it gives a thorough explanation of what is going on.

          • purrtriarchy

            I hate how forced birthers will pretend that practice breathing is proof of sentience and sapience. Just like the thumb sucking. Or any random movement.

            Oh, while I’ve got you, why do fetuses kick? I heard that its for muscular and skeletal development?

    • anja

      The bible says that a person doesn’t have receive a soul until after they’re born and taken their first breath. So your concept of ‘ensoulment’ has NO bearing on Reproductive health care. It is also irrelevant when it comes to a woman seeking to exercise her
      constitutional rights and a doctor performing the duties they are
      required to perform as part of their JOB.

      • asmith1234

        Anja, You wrote: “The bible says that a person doesn’t have receive a soul until after they’re born and taken their first breath.”

        Can you please tell me where to find that verse in the Bible? The following verses refute that position from the Bible.

        Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

        Psalms 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

        Psalms 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother’s bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

        • purrtriarchy

          Those verses don’t refute shit. They are taken out of context, and the first one is referring to a specific individual, and is not meant to refer to zygotes and embryos, the second and third are just saying that babies get born, and that they come out of a woman’s body.

        • lady_black

          Well, if you believe that an infant comes from it’s mother’s bowels, there isn’t much help for you. Adam BECAME a living soul upon breathing, according to the creation myth. Prior to that time, he was dirt. Not that any of that matters, because your Bible is irrelevant to the law. This is not a theocracy, and if you attempted to live by what the Bible says, you would be arrested. And rightfully so.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Numbers 5:11-31 describes a trial by ordeal that is an abortion, proof of adultery being the aborted fetus. The Jews knew about and practiced abortion.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water

          A Sotah (Hebrew: סוטה‎) is a woman suspected of adultery who undergoes the ordeal of bitter water or ordeal of jealousy as described and prescribed in the Priestly Code, in the Book of Numbers, the fourth book of the Hebrew Bible. The term “Sotah” itself is not found in the Hebrew Bible but is Mishnaic Hebrew based on the verse “if she has strayed” (verb:שטה satah) in Numbers 5:12.[1][2] The process was a trial by ordeal administered to the wife whose husband suspected her of adultery but who had no witnesses to make a formal case (Numbers 5:11-31). The ordeal is further explained in the Talmud, in the eponymous seventh tractate of Nashim.

          “19 And the priest shall cause her to swear, and shall say unto the woman: ‘If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness, being under thy husband, be thou free from this water of bitterness that causeth the curse; 20 but if thou hast gone aside, being under thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee besides thy husband– 21 then the priest shall cause the woman to swear with the oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman–the LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to fall away, and thy belly to swell; 22 and this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, and make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to fall away’; and the woman shall say: ‘Amen, Amen.’ 23 And the priest shall write these curses in a scroll, and he shall blot them out into the water of bitterness.24 And he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that causeth the curse; and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her and become bitter.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Hosea 13:16
          New American Standard Bible
          Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Deuteronomy 28
          And fyou shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the Lord your God has given you, gin the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you. 54 The man who is the most tender and refined among you will hbegrudge food to his brother, to ithe wife he embraces,1 and to the last of the children whom he has left, 55 so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing else left, jin the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns. 56 kThe most tender and refined woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will begrudge to the husband she embraces,2 to her son and to her daughter, 57 her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because lacking everything she will eat them secretly, jin the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          The Bible says Jehovah supported the Kings of Israel. The Bible is not prolife and cannot be used to support forced birth.
          2 Kings 15:16
          Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.

          • asmith1234

            How convenient of you to have left off the following verse:

            “18 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD: he departed not all his days from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin.”

            All through the Bible, God’s Word talks about the evil of sacrificing children. In a nutshell, this is all that abortion is… a sacrifice to your god. The same god that advocates selfishness and lust in addition to power and control over others. (the stuff that every blood thirsty tyrant in history is made of)

            Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

            What amazes me is none of you pro death people will stick to the point of this article. The abortion topic is a whole different can of worms. This heart of the issue of this article is about the use of force, against another. All of you know in your hearts, that using force to is wrong and unconstitutional. Not to be found in a free country, because it IS tyrannical. I suspect that is why each one of you refuses to stick to the point of the article and address the advocating the use of force against another.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Hosea 13:16
            The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea …
            Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

          • asmith1234

            Hosea was prophesying what would happen to them. Just as this nation will be destroyed because of the innocent blood that’s been shed. There are a multitude of verses such as this in the Bible. This is the result of a people or nation turning against God. You have not proved one thing. (here’s a hint… the god that loves death, is NOT the God of the Bible)

            Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

            John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

            John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
            Please, address the point of this article.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No, Hosea says quite clearly he is a Prophet and he is transmitting the word of God.
            Stop teaching what you do not know anything about. Stop pretending you can read for meaning. You clearly have a problem with reading comprehension. You are a parrot.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are quote mining. You do not understand nor read the Bible. Your reading skills are not up to par.

          • purrtriarchy

            The genocide of the amalekites. Yahweh had no problem ordering the mass murder of children and fetuses

            Numbers 5 – kill a fetus as a test for adultery.

          • asmith1234

            Please see the new comment that I just made that addresses all of those that have replied. You can pull it up by putting in, ‘search by newest first’.

          • purrtriarchy

            Worthless, content free blather. You can’t refute any of our arguments. What a joke.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            These are the rules that Jesus followed. I will stick with Jesus.

            “Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

            An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.” Judaism 101.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Who has advocated the use of force?

        • asmith1234

          I’m still waiting for the production of a verse that supports your statement that, “The bible says that a person doesn’t have receive a soul until after they’re born and taken their first breath.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It is Genesis 2:7 that is the most well known. You do not actually read the Bible, do you? If you do not know the Bible, you probably should not be teaching it.
            And Genesis 6:17.
            Job 27:3.
            Job 33:4.
            Revelation 11:11.
            Job 34:14-15

          • asmith1234

            You’re really stretching it aren’t you? You can’t come up with a verse that supports the statement, “The bible says that a person doesn’t have receive a soul until after they’re born and taken their first breath.” so you come up with God creating the first man????? Is that the best you can do?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not actually read my comments or citations. Or those of anyone else.
            You seem to have poor reading comprehension.
            Your habitual argument is “Nuh uh.”
            You do not actually read the Bible nor understand it. That is evident to anyone who does such.
            And yet, like all zealots, you want to be in charge of other people’s lives and teach what you do not know. You are a hoot.

          • asmith1234

            LOL, you accuse others of trying to be in charge of other people’s lives, YET, it is you that want to force a doctor to go against his/her will and conscience and take a life??????

          • purrtriarchy

            I want to remind you that you want to make abortion illegal in all cases. You want to force rape victims to give birth. You want to work with rapists to enslave women. You are a fascist thug.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You argue by misquotation. That is tacky. You have no choice. You have a serious problem with reading for meaning and information. Where did you go to school? Your teachers did not do their job.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Point to where I said “I want to force a doctor to go against his/her will and conscience and take a life.” I will wait while you find the quote.

          • lady_black

            She just DID. She explained to you that the word translated as soul is nephesh (Hebrew for breath and breathing). You will need a Bible with a concordance that explains the original word and it’s meaning. She is not “stretching” anything. Nobody “receives” a soul. Your soul is YOU, from first breath to last breath. She is pointing you to Adam, because as the story goes, “Dirt Adam” was formed out of the ground, and “Dirt Adam” was lifeless until the point when he was given his first breath, at which time he BECAME a living soul. The soul was Adam himself, not some part of him. Because the way the rest of us are created differently doesn’t change the Biblical principle of what a soul is, and you became a soul at your first breath and will remain a soul until your last breath, after which time you will (like everyone else, ever) return to the earth from which you were taken. Upon death, you begin to decompose and all that is left upon completion are the same minerals and compounds as what make up the dirt of the ground.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You explained it better than I did. I thought it was clear from the variety and scope of the references. She still will not get it. She is functionally illiterate. Doubt she took the time out from calling us names to read the references.

            In Job, haSatan is doing its task of weighing Job’s soul for God. haSatan is the foremost angel and the weighing of souls (faith) is its responsibility. It is clear in the references that breath=soul and that breath is life and that life/breath/soul is the gift of God.

            Those who beat others with the stick of religion rarely understand the psychological function of religion or their own religion well. If they did understand, they would never use religion as a stick.

          • lady_black

            Does your Bible have a concordance? Look to the original language translated (for some odd reason) as “soul.” In the Hebrew, nephesh referred to breathing or breath, and is translated as “soul” in the KJV. However, there are verses that make clear the actual meaning of that word. And you are lying when you say nobody has pointed you to where the Bible says this, because I have. Consider the creation myth of humanity, where the deity forms a man out of dirt. The story goes on to state that THE LORD breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils and Adam *BECAME* a living soul. (Emphasis added.) Therefore, what is a “soul?” Clearly, from the creation of human life myth in Genesis, a “soul” is a physical body that breathes. Plain and simple. Animals are also described as “souls.” Before Adam began to breathe, he was just dirt from the ground. The fact that he BECAME a living soul (as opposed to “receiving” a soul) tells you exactly what a soul is. It is a breathing body, from first breath to last breath. This is what your Bible teaches concerning what a soul is.

    • Dez

      As an American atheist I don’t care about your religious beliefs or societies in general. We have the first amendment to protect individuals from forcing religious beliefs like “unborn child and ensoulment.” Once believers actually prove there are god(s) then your comment would be relevant. Since they haven’t, please keep your superstitions to yourself and out of the lives of those who do share them.

      • PolySci1973

        Since when does claiming to be an Atheist automatically assert that all Atheists believe in abortion? They do not. A moral code does not need to be based on religion, true; but that does not mean all Agnostics or Atheists believe or value the same moral code.

        • Dez

          I was speaking as myself if you have any reading comprehension. No where did I say I speak for all atheists. We have the first amendment in this country and no religious viewpoint should be forced on anyone whether they are pro-choice, “pro-life, atheist or agonistic, Please learn to read better before attacking someone.

          • PolySci1973

            LOL. . . ah yes, the wimpering “attack” remark. It is not an attack when one merely states the obvious and the factual truth. As you said, 1st Amendment and my right also. Not an attack. Your perception is askew and shows your true feelings when everything is seen as a “personal attack”. That shows lack of comprehension and narrow sightedness.

          • lady_black

            Look. You argue by misquotation. How tacky. You took her personal observation that she doesn’t care about the religious beliefs of others, and made it about all atheists. It wasn’t. You’re making a straw man to attack. And there is nothing “LOL” about that. Your argument is invalid.

          • Dez

            I’m sorry. You are a liar. Is that better? Again your reading comprehension is very lacking. No where did I say I speak for all atheists. I speak for myself. The first amendment protects you and me from having religion forced on our lives. “Ensoulment” is a religious term as such I should not be forced to accept that. Yet you complain about attacking but seem to be okay with religious beliefs being forced on others.

      • asmith1234

        Have you read the 13th Amendment recently?

        • WinnieR

          Isn’t that the one that prohibits all slavery except voluntary?

          • lady_black

            Yes. And it has nothing to do with the subject of abortion.

        • Dez

          What does that have to do with the topic?

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      These are the standards Jesus followed. I will stick with Jesus.

      Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

      An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another. – Judaism 101

  • BJ Survivor

    Why are forced birthers so fucking stupid? Infants have been born, moron. Words mean things.

  • cjvg

    YOUR conscience should not be infringing on my legally available medical choices. Why should I suffer the consequences of your conscience, is it not time that you pay the price for your own convictions?!

    It is so easy to have “conscientious” objections when you are NOT the one who suffers the consequences. So easy to claim you should be respected for standing behind your beliefs and that that should be respected, however I will only respect your conscientious objections when you will finally put your money where your mouth is!

    If you will not provide the full range of medical options available to women, then do not work as a health care provider for women! At least you will now live your own conscience instead of forcing others to live your conscience

  • Arekushieru

    A doctor does not have a duty to perform their job but a woman has a DUTY to give birth? *Blink* *Blink* You don’t live in Kansas by any chance, do you, Dorothy?

  • Arekushieru

    You do not object to the killing of humans on a moral, ethical or practical basis under other circumstances, misogynist.

  • Jennifer Starr

    No one is talking about an infant. Infants are born.

  • lady_black

    Conscientious objection creates difficulties for the objector, not for others. It’s a hard road, sometimes. It may involve civil disobedience, arrest, and legal problems that the objector is willing to pay to make a point. Under no circumstances does another party pay the price for the objector’s conscience. This was drummed into us in nursing school. When you put that uniform on, and purport to serve the patient’s interest, you leave your personal beliefs and prejudices at home where they belong. The health care professional is there to advocate for the patient, not for himself. If someone has a moral opposition to abortion, pay the price. Work in a different specialty where it won’t be an issue. Under no circumstances can a healthcare worker substitute his or her own beliefs for what is in the best interest of the patient.

    • asmith1234

      Oh, so in your opinion, doctors do not have any Constitutional rights, specifically outlined in the Bill of Rights?

      • lady_black

        They have the right to pay the price for their conscience, just like EVERYONE ELSE. It’s NEVER ok to put the consequences of your beliefs on the shoulders of another.

    • MaryB435

      What an abortion IS is the dismemberment/killing of an innocent child. When we allow ideas of “Follow-orders-no-matter-what” to be DRUMMED INTO us, we are on the fast road to becoming no better than the Nazi doctors who were “just following orders”.
      When I went to nursing school, we were expected to care for our patients, not kill them.
      Conscientious objection is not for the purpose of making a point; it is for the purpose of saving a life. Ask Kermit Gosnell about the grisly habit he had of collecting the body parts of babies he aborted. Yes, he is warped. No doubt about that. He also unwittingly proved that what he was doing was intrinsically evil.
      The pro-abortion people deny that there is a life. They must ignore the ultrasounds to do so.
      Intentionally killing the patient’s child is NOT the way to serve the patient’s interest.

      • purrtriarchy

        What an abortion IS is the dismemberment/killing of an innocent child.

        So if the embryo is expelled whole, as in chemical abortion, then you’re not bothered at all by it? What if every abortion was performed by induced labour or c-section, you would not find abortion objectionable then?

        The pro-abortion people deny that there is a life. They must ignore the ultrasounds to do so.

        There is life. Mindless life. A fetus is completely mindless and lacks the capacity for sentience. It is no different than a braindead patient with a functioning brainstem/body.

        Intentionally killing the patient’s child is NOT the way to serve the patient’s interest.

        I know women who would rather put a bullet in their own brain than give birth. Clearly, you do not know what is ‘in the best interest’ of pregnant people who do not wish to be pregnant.

      • Suba gunawardana

        It’s a life, so what? Forcing an unwanted child into life and abandoning them in a hostile world does NOT constitute “saving a life”. It is nothing but willful premeditated child abuse.

        • asmith1234

          Suba, I truly do feel sorry for you about the way you see life. There are those who have survived abortion and are thankful that they have life. Do a google search for abortion survivals. Just because you see the world as a dark and hostile place, doesn’t mean everyone does. Would you condemn another just because you see the world so darkly?

          • Suba gunawardana

            And what about those unfortunate kids who were forced into birth only to be neglected/abused/raped or abandoned by whoever was supposed to take care of them?
            A very few success stories do not negate the many horrors. Even a single child abused is one too many. Who speaks for them?

            P.S. It’s not MY perception but reality. Go to Child-help or Childrens bureau & look at the stats on child abuse.

          • asmith1234

            So kill them all because of the few that MIGHT be abused?

          • Suba gunawardana

            If a potential parent is unable/unwilling to provide the future child a GOOD life free from abuse/neglect, yes they should absolutely have the right to kill them now instead of torture them later.

            And BTW that decision is NOT yours or mine, but the pregnant woman’s.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Ghoul.

          • purrtriarchy
          • Suba gunawardana

            There we go!

          • goatini

            //Do a google search for abortion survivals.//

            There aren’t any.

      • lady_black

        Yeah… NO. I never said anything about “following orders no matter what.” Acting in the patient’s best interest might involve NOT following an order. But you don’t get to decide or dictate whether a woman goes through with a pregnancy. You know better than that, if you really are a nurse. In spite of your histrionics and appeals to emotion, no “innocent children” are being killed or dismembered during a safe legal pregnancy termination. Unviable human tissue is being removed from the uterus of an unwilling host. That is ALL that happens. And don’t bring criminals into the discussion.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        RIGHT WING MEME ALERT.
        The forced birth cultists are in love with Gosnell.
        A fetus is alive like my liver is alive, it is human, it may be unwanted.

  • anja

    When your so called “conscientious objection” harms or negatively effects another person, it’s not a conscious objection but selfish discrimination and should be as illegal as racial segregation.

  • anja

    Your arguments sound like the ignorant spewing of an anti-choice troller who hasn’t actually spent any time thinking or researching the subject and are just spewing propaganda in a argument that violates eight of the ten ‘don’ts’ of rational debate.

  • Dr. Suzanne Poppema

    Well said you two!!!! So glad to see this point of view getting traction!

  • Dez

    I thought infants were puppies.

  • Arekushieru

    You are conflating apples and oranges, too, btw. The killing of animals can be considered a rights violation. Making abortion illegal can be and IS considered a rights violation. Oops.

  • purrtriarchy

    Live Action News has commented on this article:

    http://liveactionnews.org/the-real-anti-choicers-rh-reality-check-argues-pro-life-doctors-should-be-forced-to-perform-abortions/#comment-1416867008

    The comments are pretty funny. They are arguing in favour of segregation and anti gay bigotry. Really, way to make your cause look good, guys.

    • fiona64

      I might have known that Calvin Freakburger and his cabal were behind the latest invasion of idiocy.

      And yep … lots of “good Christians” in the comments, behaving in ways that Jesus wouldn’t recognize, spewing hate and bigotry all over the place.

  • James Toups

    This shows an obvious distain and/or failure to understand basic freedom of conscience.

    Sounds like you are attempting to run doctors who understand basic science and know life begins at conception out of health care.

    Abortion is not basic health care. It takes a human life.

    • purrtriarchy

      Abortion is not basic health care. It takes a human life.

      Oh really? Tell me cupcake, which of the below side effects should YOU suffer to preserve life?

      Normal, frequent
      or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

      exhaustion (weariness
      common from first weeks)

      altered appetite
      and senses of taste and smell

      nausea and vomiting
      (50% of women, first trimester)

      heartburn and indigestion

      constipation

      weight gain

      dizziness and light-headedness

      bloating, swelling,
      fluid retention

      hemmorhoids

      abdominal cramps

      yeast infections

      congested, bloody
      nose

      acne and mild skin
      disorders

      skin discoloration
      (chloasma, face and abdomen)

      mild to severe backache
      and strain

      increased headaches

      difficulty sleeping,
      and discomfort while sleeping

      increased urination
      and incontinence

      bleeding gums

      pica

      breast pain and
      discharge

      swelling of joints,
      leg cramps, joint pain

      difficulty sitting,
      standing in later pregnancy

      inability to take
      regular medications

      shortness of breath

      higher blood pressure

      hair loss

      tendency to anemia

      curtailment of ability
      to participate in some sports and activities

      infection
      including from serious and potentially fatal disease

      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
      non-pregnant women, and
      are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

      extreme pain on
      delivery

      hormonal mood changes,
      including normal post-partum depression

      continued post-partum
      exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
      – major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
      fully recover)

      Normal, expectable,
      or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

      stretch marks (worse
      in younger women)

      loose skin

      permanent weight
      gain or redistribution

      abdominal and vaginal
      muscle weakness

      pelvic floor disorder
      (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
      and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
      incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
      the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

      changes to breasts

      varicose veins

      scarring from episiotomy
      or c-section

      other permanent
      aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
      by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

      increased proclivity
      for hemmorhoids

      loss of dental and
      bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

      higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

      newer research indicates
      microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
      mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

      Occasional complications
      and side effects:

      complications of episiotomy

      spousal/partner
      abuse

      hyperemesis gravidarum

      temporary and permanent
      injury to back

      severe
      scarring
      requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)

      dropped (prolapsed)
      uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
      pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
      and enterocele)

      pre-eclampsia
      (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
      with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

      eclampsia (convulsions,
      coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

      gestational diabetes

      placenta previa

      anemia (which
      can be life-threatening)

      thrombocytopenic
      purpura

      severe cramping

      embolism
      (blood clots)

      medical disability
      requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
      many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
      or baby)

      diastasis recti,
      also torn abdominal muscles

      mitral valve stenosis
      (most common cardiac complication)

      serious infection
      and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

      hormonal imbalance

      ectopic pregnancy
      (risk of death)

      broken bones (ribcage,
      “tail bone”)

      hemorrhage
      and

      numerous other complications
      of delivery

      refractory gastroesophageal
      reflux disease

      aggravation of pre-pregnancy
      diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
      of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
      prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

      severe post-partum
      depression and psychosis

      research now indicates
      a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
      including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

      research also now
      indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
      in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

      research also indicates
      a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
      and cardiovascular disease

      Less common (but
      serious) complications:

      peripartum cardiomyopathy

      cardiopulmonary
      arrest

      magnesium toxicity

      severe hypoxemia/acidosis

      massive embolism

      increased intracranial
      pressure, brainstem infarction

      molar pregnancy,
      gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced
      cancer)

      malignant arrhythmia

      circulatory collapse

      placental abruption

      obstetric fistula

      More
      permanent side effects:

      future infertility

      permanent disability

      death.

      • James Toups

        You mean compared to being torn limb from limb inside the mother’s womb and being sucked out into a sink?
        Pregnancy is a normal human process. Women need love and support not the death of her children.

        • purrtriarchy

          So then you won’t object to having your blood bone marrow and organs forcibly taken from you to save a life? Your health and life certainly come second to the life that can be saved from using your body parts yes?

          And you know what else is natural? Rape. And cancer. And 100s of diseases. If we can’t stop the natural process of pregnancy then we can’t stop any natural process can we? Sine according to your tiny misogynist brain, natural equals good and cannot be interfered with.

          P.s. in the majority of abortions the embryo is expelled whole. And there are no limbs, only limb buds.

          • catseye

            And it’s the size of a thumbnail or smaller, and indistinguishable from a blood clot. To get those gruesome pictures, the anti’s take full-term stillborns and hack them up. Seems to me this should be investigated as desecration of a corpse.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Agree. They show putrefying stillborns and present them as abortions. Disrespectful and disgusting.

        • Suba gunawardana

          What difference does it make if you are “torn from limb to limb”, or poisoned or sucked out or whatever, if you cannot feel any of it?

          • asmith1234

            And how would you know that those babies can’t feel any of it?

          • purrtriarchy

            Because of scientific studies, my sweet little ignoramus:

            Highlights

            The human brain may discriminate touch from pain from 35–37 weeks gestation

            Before 35–37 weeks, touch and noxious lance evoke nonspecific neuronal bursts

            After 35–37 weeks, touch and noxious lance evoke modality-specific potentials

            Summary

            When and how infants begin to discriminate noxious from innocuous stimuli is a fundamental question in neuroscience [1].
            However, little is known about the development of the necessary
            cortical somatosensory functional prerequisites in the intact human
            brain. Recent studies of developing brain networks have emphasized the
            importance of transient spontaneous and evoked neuronal bursting
            activity in the formation of functional circuits [2, 3]. These neuronal bursts are present during development and precede the onset of sensory functions [4, 5].
            Their disappearance and the emergence of more adult-like activity are
            therefore thought to signal the maturation of functional brain circuitry
            [2, 4]. Here we show the changing
            patterns of neuronal activity that underlie the onset of nociception and
            touch discrimination in the preterm infant. We have conducted
            noninvasive electroencephalogram (EEG) recording of the brain neuronal
            activity in response to time-locked touches and clinically essential
            noxious lances of the heel in infants aged 28–45 weeks gestation. We
            show a transition in brain response following tactile and noxious
            stimulation from nonspecific, evenly dispersed neuronal bursts to
            modality-specific, localized, evoked potentials. The results suggest
            that specific neural circuits necessary for discrimination between touch
            and nociception emerge from 35–37 weeks gestation in the human brain.

            http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2811%2900885-2

          • Watchman on the Wall

            You mean that same science that gave us Copernicanism, evolution, the lie that we placed a man on the moon and global warming? You means THAT pseudo-science and false religion of the Antichrist?

            And why should anyone in his right mind believe you or anything the frauds and con artists of pseudo-science have to say that we know beforehand are lies?

          • purrtriarchy

            So you’re one of those nuts who rejects science because it’s based in fact and not bullshit?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We got a real nut here, folks.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Oh yeah, we can’t believe the truth and simple logic. We have to contort everything to deny the existence of God and the infallibility of the Bible on behalf of our master, Satan, the father of lies and deceit.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am a Christian. Stop pretending all religious folks are opposed to abortion. That is a stone lie.
            And stop pretending Jehovah is opposed to abortion. Hosea 13:16 and Numbers 5:12.
            Fricking forced birth cultist nut.

          • lady_black

            Your “simple logic” is heavy on ‘simple’, and way too light on ‘logic.’ Am I seriously supposed to take the word of a nutcake raving about what I consider to be imaginary creatures when it comes to science and medicine? Really? Look, nut… if you wish to live in a theocracy there are plenty to choose from. I live in the USA where your religious delusions mean nothing to anyone but yourself. You can join us here, or get out the travel brochures and start packing. What you will NOT do is turn the USA into a third rate copy of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Sorry witch: I got here first. You go back to the snake pit from which you emerged. You wouldn’t know logic if it hit you in the face. If you did, you would know that 1) Copernicanism, 2) macro-evolution, 3) man going to the moon and 4) global warming are all hideous frauds that can easily be debunked with simple logical reasoning from known facts.

            Instead, you choose your religious delusions of Satanism, rooted in deception and lies in which evil = good and good = evil and there is no universal truth. Guess again, fool. Life doesn’t work that way. You’ll soon see.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, nutbar–she was here first. She’s a long standing member of this board, and you don’t get to tell her to go anywhere. You, on the other hand, may feel free to take your various delusions and conspiracy theories to another board–you won’t be missed. Anyone who doesn’t believe that the Earth and the other planets revolve around the Sun clearly has a pilot light that’s not lit.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            No, demon-infested witch, I am he to whom you will bow down and worship in 2 1/2 very short years, just as Revelation 3:9 promises it. I have been on this planet far longer than you wicked barbarian savage children of the devil have been, and am an American for 12 generations and 500 years and counting. So it is YOu who ought to get lost and go crawl back in the viper pit from which you and your fellow demons emerged.

            Conspiracy theories? Didn’t David Rockefeller send you the memo? He’s guilty and makes no apologies for it. Didn’t you hear?

            Anyone who believes the fraud of heliocentrism is delusional and cannot think straight. But why are we surprised? The wise are not surprised by your foolishness in the least. Here’s why:

            “Fear of the LORD (YHWH) is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.” Proverbs 1:7

            You have no knowledge, because you have no fear of God and God is the source of all truth, not the frauds of pseudo-science and demonism.

            You wicked fools never use common sense and simple logic to question any of the lies you have been fed all your lives. So you remain perpetually clueless and very easy to manipulate and control by the Jewish global elites, as the “useful idiots” that you so clearly are.

            If heliocentrism were true (it’s not) now do you explain that when you look at the stars at night, they don’t whisk be in a streak at 750 – 1,000 MPH, since this is how fast most of the earth would have to spin to make one whole revolution in 24 hours?

            If heliocentrism were true and the sun is 93 million miles away from earth, simple math reveals a circular orbit of 585,000,000 miles to be traveled in 8,760 hours per year. How fast is this dimwit? I’ll answer to spare you the embarrassment: 66,000 MPH. So why aren’t all those stars just streaks in the sky if the earth is hurtling through space at 33 times the speed of a bullet (2,000 MPH)? And why hasn’t the atmosphere been ripped off the surface of the earth yet? 200 MPH hurricanes do untold damage and yet your fraudulent claim has the earth traveling at 330 times that speed!!!! You godless demon-possessed fools cannot think your way out of a wet paper bag! Your misplaced pride and arrogance founded on quicksand is truly laughable!!!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, demon-infested witch, I am he to whom you will bow down and worship in 2 1/2 very short years, just as Revelation 3:9 promises it. I have been on this planet far longer than you wicked barbarian savage children of the devil have been, and am an American for 12 generations and 500 years and counting. So it is YOu who ought to get lost and go crawl back in the viper pit from which you and your fellow demons emerged.

            Actually, I must apologize for calling you a nutbar. You’re so completely far gone that even nutbars look sensible by comparison.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The lights are on but nobody is home.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.” And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats

          • catseye

            Luces prendidas, nadie a la casa.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Folks, coming from a demon spirit doing the work of the devil himself, what are you to conclude from his last post? Remember: all demons serve and do the work of their master, the father of lies. so what else would you expect out of a demon? This is what they look like and this is how they attempt to deceive you: Beware!

          • Jennifer Starr

            You have green, scaly skin, and a soft yellow underbelly with a series of fin-like ridges running down your spine and tail. Although lizardlike in shape, you can grow anything up to thirty feet in length with huge teeth that can bite off great rocks and trees. You inhabit arid subtropical zones, and you wear spectacles.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            See folks? This is what happens to demons who possess a person. They cause the person they inhabit to go insane, as this person clearly is doing. This entity is a demon spirit and this is what demonic possession looks like. Learn from it. It will become common place over the next 2 1/2 years.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.” And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you, dear merciful God, for forty years and counting of safe and legal medical contraception and abortion. Praise your Holy Name.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Folks, here is demon spirit praying to his god, Lucifer! Beware!!!

            YHWH calls His people to be fruitful and multiply. He is not a God of death, but of LIFE!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Lucifer is not a god. I am a monotheist like Jesus. Every day Jesus said this prayer:
            Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
            Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
            Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
            Blessed be the Name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            No, Lucifer is most assuredly not a god. But most of the world worships him, as do you.

            Those who truly know God and have a personal relationship with Him, know Him by the name He has revealed to His elect: YHWH (pronounced Yahuwah).

            Yahushua never said such a repetitious incantation of ANY kind. This is yet another attempt to deceive God’s elect. Don’t be fooled. This is why we must expect and be ready for for the remainder of the great tribulation in which we are now living. 2 1/2 very short years more to go and Yahushua will return to clean up this wicked mess.

            One way Satanists conceal who they are really praying to, right out in the open, is to employ the words Lord and God. But these are merely titles of respect and divinity; they are not the true name of those who have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Pazzo in volo con palloncini.

          • lady_black

            So, in essence, you’re saying that you were freeze-dried in the 16th century, that heliocentric universe theory is wrong (by the way, you have already been proved wrong in that many times), evolution doesn’t exist (never mind that it’s observable), a man never walked on the moon (lolz, wonder where all those moon rocks came from) and the earth is flat. Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo. All this science stuff is HARD. Wanna buy some shoes? YOU’RE NUTS!

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Do your own research. Simple logic proves them all to be hideous frauds. but you wicked fools are incapable of thinking straight.

            1) If the earth spins, then why when you look in the sky at night and not see streaks of light flashing by and no points of light? Because the earth is not rotating on an imaginary axis dimwit!

            2) if the earth rotates about the sun that is 93 million miles away, that means that the circumference of the alleged circular orbit it makes is 585,000,000 miles that we trace in 8,760 hours per year. do the division: that means we are zipping through space at 66,000 MPH. I can’t keep what little hair I have left from blowing in less than 20 MPH in a convertible. but somehow traveling at 33 times the speed of a bullet (2,000 MPH), our atmosphere doesn’t get ripped off our planet. How the hell do you explain THAT one? You don’t. You ignore it and deny the obvious.

            3) If the second law of thermodynamics contradicts the theory of evolution, (which it does) which one is s lie? Either way, pseudo-scinces has just been exposed as a monumental fraud.

            4) Moon landing? What moon landing? You mean the film fraud of Stanley Kubrick and his film crew in the dead of night in the Nevada desert? You mean that moon landing?!? Believing in fairly tales again are you? Moon rocks? prove they came from the moon and prove they came from the landings of man on the moon. This better be good. Some of us can still reason logically, even if you can’t.

            5) Global warming? Yeah? Where are all those rising sea levels Al Gore spread panic over and won a fraudulent Nobel Prize over? What about that UK lab fraud that was uncovered a decade ago? Got a short memory? Bummer for you. Some of us have memories like elephants and we are SO onto you and your frauds!

          • lady_black

            You, sir, are a moron. Other physical laws and forces come into play, such as the speed of light, and gravity, and the speed at which our brains are capable of processing what we see. We are indeed “zipping through space at 66,000 mph” and if it weren’t for gravity (which is a function of mass) we would all fly right off the planet due to centrifugal force. And the earth is not spinning on it’s axis more rapidly than the speed of light (and indeed not even approaching that speed), thus you see no “trails” in the night sky. I don’t know how you got out of primary school, much less high school without learning these fundamentals of physics. Yes, they are all REAL, and demonstrable in a lab setting. I would suggest you take a course in elementary physics for adult learners at your local community college before you step off a cliff while in the midst of a gravity-defying delusion. ROFLMAO. I truly was unaware that people with your level of ignorance truly existed. Were you by chance home-schooled?

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Folks, this demon cannot help but embarrass and shame herself with her endless lies and wickedness, filled with hatred for anything that is of the truth or that which is good, noble, righteous and pure.

            Simple logic, ladies and gentlemen, demolishes the lies of Copernicanism. You know that when you are traveling at a high speed (100 MPH or faster) that all that passes by you appears to be as a blur of light and little more. Yet this fool falsely claims that if we are traveling 660 times faster than 100 MPH, such a simple and observed phenomenon does not apply. No one needs to go into a lab setting to make these simple observations. something is wrong here, folks, and what is wrong is that the earth is not whizzing through space around the sun at 66,000 MPH, nor is it spinning on an imaginary axis at 1,040 MPH at the equator (and a bit less at latitudes closer to the poles).

            If Copernicanism were true, a pilot navigating his plane would have to lead his destination by the MPH his destination point is spinning eastward, just like a duck hunter must lead his target with his shotgun aim. Yet that never occurs. Why not? Because the earth is not spinning folks, and no amount of deceptive words ought to mislead you otherwise.

            The plain truth is than mankind has been hideously lied to for centuries. The world neither spins on an imaginary axis, nor does it revolve around the sun in a year. With simple human experience we all share, I have just demonstrated how easy it is to demolish the lies of Satan and his Pharisees of the Zohar Kaballah of Judaism, where this nonsense emanates from. Yet we have all been brain washed, indoctrinated, mind control programmed and hypnotized to belief just the opposite of that which is true.

            Don’t take met word for any of this. Read Marshall Hall’s book, “The Earth is Not Moving,” or go to his website at http://www.fixedearth.com and do your own study to determine the truth for yourselves. Anyone who is of the truth, can do this and arrive at the same conclusions I have. Anyone of the lie, is of the father of lies, the devil, and cannot ever see this, even though it is rudimentary and quite simple.

            “Fear of the LORD (YHWH) is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.” Proverbs 1:7

            You have just been instructed in the truth, which contradicts the lies of Copernicanism which we all have been wrongly taught. Are you of the truth? Or are you of the lie and a slave to Satan, the father of lies, and cannot reason your way out of a wet paper bag, and choose instead to believe the lies which they repeat endlessly to keep you in the dark – permanently.

          • lady_black

            Dummy, what happens when you are driving along in your car and slam on the brakes? Answer: You keep moving until something stops you from moving (inertia). You are traveling along at the same speed as the earth. It isn’t rotating “under your feet”. You’re moving at the same speed. If the earth stopped rotating suddenly, you wouldn’t stop until you met some opposing force. I swear to god, I have never seen such an imbecile in all my life. You do not understand physics, so you declare that it’s all false, and that the universe rotates around the earth, which never moves.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t actually think he was schooled at all. I love how he begins his nutty rantings with ‘Folks’, as though he imagines that someone out there is actually reading him and taking him seriously.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Satan as a power who can affect God? No thank you. Like Jesus the Jew I am a monotheist. Jesus prayed this prayer every day.

            Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
            Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
            Blessed be the Name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Jesus was no Jew as that name has been usurped today to mean something other than what it once referred to. The Jewish people of today are the Antichrist who are> 95% Khazars (not Hebrews) and who follow the Babylonian Talmud and Zohar Kaballah, and not the Old Testament of the Bible, as they falsely claim. They are liars and thus, serve the father of lies, the devil.

            “…those who claim they are Jews, and are not (because they are Talmud- and Kaballah-following Khazars) are of the synagogue of Satan.” Jesus at Revelation 2:9 and 3:9

            “We Jews do not like to admit it, but our God is Lucifer… We are his chosen people…” – Harold Rosenthal from “The Hidden Tyranny” (1970).

            This prayer is some sort of Satanic incantation of witchcraft. It most assuredly is not of the one true God of all creation. YHWH (Yahuwah) is His name and Yahushua the true name of His son. Let all the earth rejoice: Yahushua is returning in 2 1/2 short years to fulfill the prophecies of the end times of Scripture! Praise YHWH!!!!!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Pazzo in volo.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Mr. Ratbag, if you don’t mind me saying so, you’re badly in need of an expensive course of psychiatric treatment. Now, I’m not going to say that a trip to our dairy will cure you, but it will give hundreds of lower-paid workers a good laugh.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            See again folks? This demon spirit has driven his host human insane. This is how it manifests at the end.

          • Suba gunawardana

            You are just out & out batshit crazy. I am curious to know where you gained your so called “knowledge”? And how you manage to exist in today’s world?

          • Jennifer Starr

            There’s no Messiah in here. There’s a mess all right, but no Messiah.

          • Suba gunawardana

            No sweetie-pie, you have driven yourself insane. Don’t blame imaginary demons for your problems.

          • Rainbow Walker

            The illness, you were born with. The religion, you were drawn to and is deleterious to psychological functioning. But we have treatment for your disorders. Please, don’t be afraid of the modern world and seek help.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Folks, here’s yet another demon troll! They are desperate tonight! Their master, Satan, is beside himself. The truth keeps leaking out and he is powerless to stop it. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled in all of this, Matthew 10:26, specifically. This is but one of countless signs that we are at the end of God’s Biblical timeline and living through the days of the great tribulation foretold in Daniel 12 ands Matthew 24 for thousands of years. This is very cool if you are of the truth, and thus one of God’s elect. It is tormenting to demons, those of the lie and God’s non-elect (His spiritual goats) such as this one, who knows his end us just about up.

            Let’s watch him crater, shall we? It ought to be quite instructive of what is to come of all demon-possessed wicked fools in 2 1/2 very short years.

          • Rainbow Walker

            As Suba said, this guy is batshit crazy. Must have been raised in an FLDS compound. It’s a wonder he’s on a computer. Isn’t that a thing of the devil?

            And he intentionally misinterprets his own majick book. Bajebus was a jew.

            Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

            Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

            Bajebus was dissing the jews that didn’t follow his way [much like this joker is doing]. If they didn’t follow bajebus they weren’t jews, they were the devil.

            Watchman on the Wall is also a racist and anti-Semitic. Harold Rosenthal doesn’t exist. That booklet was created under a pseudonym by Charles A. Weisman.

            I’ll bet you have a swastika for your screensaver.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            The tell-tale mark of a son of Satan and all evil trolls, such as this one clearly is, are their lies and deceit. This one is a classic example. Just watch him implode all by himself. It will be quite instructive to all.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Uh oh Looks like god deleted some of your posts. :) I am disappointed since I cannot hit reply directly, but god forgot they were still in my inbox, LOL!

            In response to this particular gem from you: “Not at all. Simple answer: God will not permit Himself to be tested and He will not be mocked. His timing is perfect. Yours is not: it’s just selfish and foolish. You’ll see soon enough. 2 1/2 very short years is not far away at all.”

            Can you BE that naive? How can anyone be that naive? Your imaginary god has been mocked since time began. Why does your god have to wait another couple of years to show his powers? (ALWAYS some point in the future, never now). Why did he just sit & take it for all the millions of years until now?

            Oh, and in response to your above post here: You keep saying “just watch this one implode” about various people. I have yet to see any implosions. A LOT of bark & no bite, poor you….

          • Jennifer Starr

            An anti-semetic nut as well–was looking at some of his comments. Yikes. Looks like he has a history of domestic violence as well.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            These fruitbats think they are invisible. We see them. We read what they write.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh yeah. And reading this guy’s comment history is like diving into a big sea of crazy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You mean the same science that’s enabling you to type out this conspiracy-ridden drivel and share it with us?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You know, if you want to live in a backwards, anti-science theocracy, there are several out there that would suit you just fine. Or we could scrounge up a time machine and send you back to the 14th Century.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            You can be a wicked, rebellious,defiant child and fool all you like. Science is a fraud almost universally, especially in the big things. It’s nothing more than Satan’s religious cult. It is so easy to demolish with simple logic and common sense: a rare commodity in the world today. And that’s why you remain the fool that you so clearly are: God made you that way to bring glory to Him upon your day of destruction. You’ll soon see. Have a nice day.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So what you’re trying to say is that you were never very good at science, and you’re covering up your ineptness with a bunch of loony conspiracy theories.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Ridicule me all you like demon. We both know who I am and all that YHWH has gifted me to do.

            Folks, most of science is a hideous fraud. It has been taken over to deceive billions. Here’s proof:

            “Do not suppose for a moment that these statements are empty words: think carefully of the successes we arranged for Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzsche-ism. To us Jews, at any rate,it should be plain to see what a disintegrating importance these directives have had upon the minds of the goyim.” Protocol 2:4 from the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.”

            Copernicanism, Darwinism, landing men on the moon, and global warming? All hideous frauds. Don’t take my word for it: do your own careful study and you’ll see. Those who are of the truth are of Jesus and will see that all I teach is true. those who are of the lie, those who serve the father of lies, the devil, will ridicule the obvious truth until Yahushua returns in 2 1/2 very short years. Then the gig is up.

            The global conspiracy is very real folks. David Rockefeller, in thanking the Jewish-owned and controlled press for their silence and complicity for decades prior to his statement, openly admits that he is guilty of conspiracy. He wouldn’t have done this until he was certain that he would experience no negative repercussions from his revelation and admission of what has been true for centuries. J. Edgar Hoover and many others explicitly warned the world of the hijacking and corruption of this world by a nefarious force, so vile and wicked that it defies most people’s abilities to comprehend, that goes by many different labels. Illuminati and Masons will do to capture their Satanic nature of deceit by which they have accomplished their fraud and corruption of our nation and our world, for the master they serve: Lucifer, a/k/a Satan.

            We’re at the end folks. The Bible is 100% true and trustworthy and the world is ruled by liars and psychopaths who serve the ruler of this world, the devil. Get used to it. Figure out what comes next.

          • purrtriarchy

            You are incredibly fucking boring. I don’t even take the time to read your drivel when it arrives in my inbox. Straight to the trash it goes. If you are for real, you’re not very compelling, and if you are a professional troll you need new material.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not pining, it’s passed on! This parrot is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! This is a late parrot! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies! It’s metabolic processes are now history! He’s off the twig! He’s kicked the bucket, he’s shuffled off the mortal coil, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-parrot!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Because the thalamocortical projections necessary for conscious pain perception are not formed until the end of the 3rd trimester.

            But let’s assume for a moment that fetuses DO start feeling pain at some point. Is that enough reason to abolish abortion?

            Think carefully. Do you claim that the capacity to feel pain is enough reason to exempt any individual from being killed?

          • asmith1234

            I just asked the question… I don’t believe the pain issue has anything to do with it. It’s murder just the same.

          • Suba gunawardana

            I answered your question. Now would you like to answer mine?

            P.S. Looks like you answered. Never mind.

          • lady_black

            Um, no it is NOT “murder” and a miscarriage isn’t “manslaughter” either. Words have meanings. You cannot assign to them whatever meaning you wish. Abortion was never “murder” even when it was illegal. It was still just abortion.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Abortion is legal.
            Murder is illegal.
            That which is legal cannot also be illegal.
            Therefore abortion is not murder.
            Refute me if you can.
            FLAGGED for egregious insult to prochoice men and women. Your kind of insult and dramatic overkill may be okay on the forced birth cultist sites you frequent. I will not tolerate it here.

          • cjvg

            No, you got caught in your own web of ignorance

          • lady_black

            They aren’t “babies” and they lack the physiological structures to perceive pain.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What babies?

        • lady_black

          Fallacy of appeal to nature. Just in case you were unaware, JAMES, nature is brutal. Plus, I’m sure you don’t live your own life according to the rules of nature. Hypocrite.

          • James Toups

            What is hypocritical is being African American and supporting the organization started by Margaret Sanger. Self avowed racists and promoter of genocide for minorities.

          • purrtriarchy

            Another yes or no question for you James.

            Do you think that black women are too stupid to make their own reproductive choices in life?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Liar liar pants on fire.

          • Suba gunawardana

            You avoided the issue. Condemning women for going against nature while you use ANY technology at all (which you obviously do, considering you are online) is obvious hypocrisy.

            Furthermore, what does Sanger’s purported racism have to do with the ELECTIVE services PP provides today? According to your logic, should Jews forever refuse to drive German cars?

          • lady_black

            Um no. Margaret Sanger may have been a racist. Given that she was white, and in the era where she was active it would have been surprising if she weren’t. But she was correct. Poor families of any color have no chance to escape poverty if they cannot control their fertility. Margaret Sanger was a Registered Nurse, and a feminist. She worked tirelessly to improve the situations of poor families. The truth about her is taught in nursing classes all over. You are telling lies about a good person.

          • goatini

            //Margaret Sanger. Self avowed racists and promoter of genocide for minorities.//

            All lies.

            http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Forced Birther pervert James has brought its murderporn for show-and-tell.
          Childbirth is the leading cause of death for young women 15-19 in Africa where it is all “natural.”

        • cjvg

          Death is a normal human process, so is miscarriage and disease, what is your point?

        • goatini

          If I am pregnant and I do not wish to be pregnant, I need my civil, human and Constitutional rights to reproductive justice.

      • MaryB435

        Apparently your mother thought that the side-effects of pregnancy are worth it. So do I. Every life is precious. See the side-effects of post-abortion syndrome; they are much worse, and include the tremendous grief of knowing that a child has died.
        No matter what the side-effects of pregnancy that are experienced, and I’ve experienced many, which are routinely over-stated (see your double-spaced list above) there is never an excuse to deliberately kill an innocent child.
        We need to help women, not offer them the false hope of abortion. Look into Project Rachel for help with post-abortion syndrome. http://www.rachelsvineyard.org.
        Remember Whitney Houston, her troubled life, drug abuse and death? Remember her haunting song “Miracle”? The abortion advocates tripped all over themselves denying that it had anything to do with the grief and trauma of abortion. Listen to it. Coincidence?
        Abortion is not health care.

        • purrtriarchy

          So you believe that people, as a general principle, should be forced to risk life and limb to save lives?

          I hope this means you are in favour of forced organ/blood/tissue/bone marrow donation. Right?

        • Suba gunawardana

          “Apparently your mother thought that the side-effects of pregnancy are worth it. So do I”

          That decision is up to each individual woman. It is not YOUR job to make their decisions for them.

          Neither abortion nor birth should be FORCED on anyone.

          Incidentally what project is there to help the victims of forced birth?

          • asmith1234

            Suba, you wrote: “Neither abortion nor birth should be FORCED on anyone.”
            When there’s a multitude of doctors out there that are willing to murder babies in the womb, no one is being forced to have a baby.
            Yet, you would force another person into servitude, unwillingly. Don’t you see the hypocrisy of your position?
            What about the carpenter that refuses to build an abortion clinic because he believes abortion is murder. Would you force him also to build?
            To force ANYONE, to do that which they believe is morally wrong IS tyrannical.
            Let’s get to the truth of the matter. This article is NOT about women’s choices because all are free to go to the doctor of their choice. This is about stealing freedom from others by using force.

          • Suba gunawardana

            “When there’s a multitude of doctors out there that are willing to murder babies in the womb, no one is being forced to have a baby.”

            Wrong. In many states abortion is legal in name only. No doctors available; all clinics are shut down; and even if a few clinics are open thousands of miles away, women have to jump through all kinds of hoops including mandatory waiting periods & mandatory ultrasounds before they can get an abortion. Add these to the time restrictions, many women are FORCED to carry pregnancies they never wanted, and FORCED to birth children they never wanted.

            So in your desire to punish the women, who really gets punished? The CHILDREN, born to mothers unable/unwilling to care for them.

            Whereas doctors CHOOSE their profession. If they are unwilling to perform certain tasks in that profession, they have the freedom to choose another area of medicine, or another profession altogether. No professional has the right to assuage his/her belief at the EXPENSE of those under his/her care.

          • cjvg

            Conscious objections is when you suffer the consequences of your own personal beliefs. Passing the consequences of your beliefs of on another is cheap,dishonest and demeaning to your own personally held conscientious objections. Paying for your convictions by forcing the consequences on others is hypocritical and certainly not benefitting your conscious

          • goatini

            //no one is being forced to have a baby.//

            If I am pregnant and do not wish to be; and if you obstruct and prevent me from my exercise of my civil, human and Constitutional rights to reproductive justice,; that is EXACTLY what you are doing.

        • lady_black

          My mother did have an abortion, thank you very much. YOU don’t get to decide what’s “worth it” and what isn’t. That’s up to the woman involved. No human being is required to risk their body for the benefit of another. We aren’t brood animals and we aren’t slaves.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          My Mother had an abortion when it was illegal. She and my Dad decided that three children were all the could afford to feed and shelter properly.
          Who are you to decide they must be forced by law to have more children than they can care for? That is evil and immoral. And, thank you God, it is illegal in the USA.

          • lady_black

            She wouldn’t get away with using my mother that way to ME, either. That’s disgusting.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Abortion is healthcare, and post abortion syndrome is a myth–it doesn’t exist.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Apparently your mother thought that the side-effects of pregnancy are worth it. So do I.

          The pregnancies where you get to make this judgment call and state that ‘it’s worth it’, are your own.

          • MaryB435

            You apparently misunderstood. When your mother was pregnant with YOU, she obviously didn’t have an abortion. Aren’t you grateful for that?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m grateful that she had a choice. Am I supposed to say something like “OMG! What if I hadn’t been born? Every pregnancy must be brought to term because there might not have been a meeee!” Sorry–I remember thinking that this was a brilliant argument when I was a teenager, but then I grew up.

          • purrtriarchy

            Unlike you, we dont view our mothers as slaves.

            Do you really think that you are so ungodly special and unique that another human has to put life and limb on the line for you?

            What makes you such a special snowflake Mary that someone must risk death and injury for you, through force of law?

            Does it feel good to be so narcissistic?

          • Suba gunawardana

            -That argument is based on the assumption that every person is so—o wrapped up in themselves to the exclusion of everything else. Some people certainly are (like most forced-birthers), but many can think beyond themselves.

            -People with good lives may certainly be grateful for their life. That does NOT automatically mean abortion would have been a horrible fate for them. Abortion results in oblivion. They wouldn’t EXIST anymore, to regret anything or to be grateful for anything.

            -Not every person is fortunate enough to have a good life. Some who are dealt a terrible hand may wish they had been aborted, as evidenced by all the suicides & attempted suicides in our society. One major reason for having a terrible life is being born to parents unable/unwilling to care for you.

            -The fact that your life & mine are good does not mean everyone else’s life is. The choice whether a new child is to be born is NOT yours or mine, but that of the woman carrying the fetus. If she is unable/unwilling to care for a child, YOU have no business forcing a child into life & abandoning them in a hostile world. That is intentional premeditated child abuse.

          • lady_black

            That’s like asking whether or not you’re “grateful” that your father didn’t use a condom on the night you were supposed to be conceived. In essence, nonsensical and illogical, since in either case, you would not have any opinion on the matter. Stop asking what *you* consider to be philosophical questions, because you won’t like the answers.

          • cjvg

            No. And neither do I require my children to be thankful for a voluntary decision I made. I do require them to be thankful for any special and extraordinary experiences that I provide to them, and for the effort and time I put into educating and teaching them about human decency and empathy!

          • goatini

            My Mother was pro-choice.

        • Jennifer Starr

          No matter what the side-effects of pregnancy that are experienced, and I’ve experienced many, which are routinely over-stated

          You’re a homeschooled kid graduating this year–somehow I don’t think you’ve ever been pregnant. What ‘side effects’ have you experienced?

        • cjvg

          So you belief you have the right to use your personal experience to justify taking away the choices of millions of women you do not know and know nothing about?

          So I guess that would give me the right to dictate (based on my own personal experiences) what choices you can have! I belief you are not worthy of having any children so forced sterilization for you, ok!

        • fiona64

          You’re a homeschooled high school student, and a hyper-religious one at that.

          I think that I can say with absolute certainty that you have on idea what you’re talking about WRT pregnancy.

          I remember being an anti-choice dimwit just like you … when I was a high school student.

          No love, someone whose wanted pregnancy almost killed her (look up hyperemesis gravidarum and tell me again how it’s no big deal).

          • MaryB435

            High school? That’s someone else. I’m 55 years old.
            I remember the Roe vs. Wade decision. That was when I was in high school. Many things in American society have changed since then, some for better, some for worse.

            Were you aware that Norma McCorvey, the “Jane Roe” of Roe vs. Wade was manipulated by the pro-abortion attorneys into lying about being raped?

            The state of Texas at that time had restrictions on abortion. It was not allowed to be done. The attorneys wanted to present a hard case to the Supreme Court to be used to strike down state laws which prohibited abortion, so they claimed that Ms. McCorvey was gang-raped, and for that reason “needed” an abortion. It was very dramatic, and it brought sympathy to the case. But it wasn’t true.

            She later admitted that she was not raped, that it was a lie. She is now pro-life.

            I have heard many people saying very many bad things about her, what their motive is, I can’t say. Maybe they just don’t want to hear what happened. However, the question remains:

            “When a Supreme Court case is based on a lie– perjury–isn’t that a VERY bad basis on which to make law?”

            What are your thoughts on how laws are made, and how they SHOULD be made?

          • purrtriarchy

            Laws should be made by you Mary. Because clearly, you know what’s best for every woman in america and on the planet.

            What would we do without you, telling us how to live?

          • MaryB435

            All sarcasm aside, don’t you think perjury is a bad basis for law? Perjury made Roe v Wade.

          • purrtriarchy

            No, it did not. Suba, Fiona or Rainbow Walker will be along soon enough to explain it to you in detail.

          • Rainbow Walker

            “Perjury made Roe v Wade.”

            A case cannot perjure itself. If you mean McCorvey perjured herself, you are wrong. This is an erroneous claim made by forced birthers. While it is true McCorvey denounced the decision afterward, her testimony was barely a factor in the case. And perjury was not committed on her part.

            After she got pregnant with her third child she concocted a plan to get a legal abortion. Texas at the time allowed abortion in the case of rape, incest and for the mother’s health. She lied to her first lawyer saying she had been raped. He informed her without a police report that dog won’t hunt. That’s when she came clean. He then directed her to Linda Coffee and Sarah Weddington, constitutional lawyers who could lay suit on her behalf to get a legal abortion. Weddingham and Coffee took her case not knowing of her mental instability, psychiatric hospitalizations and drug addiction. They filed the claim. They told McCorvey they could lose, but if they won they might get an injunction and get an abortion. Fortunately for women the TX court agreed with their argument, but unfortunately for McCorvey denied injunction. Rape was never mention at trial, nor in the opinion. She was pissed and blamed the lawyers. Given her drug addiction and psychological illness it is no wonder she fell in with the forced birthers who are using her for their purposes. Of course it’s a two way street. All the money they give her can buy a lot of coke.

          • MaryB435

            Norma McCorvey admitted that she lied. Look up her testimony. This was not someone else claiming that she lied.
            The question remains: Is a lie any basis for a law?

          • purrtriarchy

            She did not lie before the court. Get that FACT through your tiny brain.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The case was decided on the right to privacy–not on the rape exception. Rape is mentioned nowhere in the court opinions. So no, perjury did not make Roe v Wade.

          • fiona64

            She’s been told this a few times now, and I even provided her with a copy of the decision. But hey, we can’t let the facts get in the way of a good, whacky rant.

          • goatini

            //perjury did not make Roe v Wade//

            But it DID make notorious perjurer Jill Stanek, and her cesspool of theocratic misogyny!

          • Suba gunawardana

            The point is that: Even if she lied about out the wazoo about being raped, that particular lie was totally irrelevant to the verdict.

            I see that logic still escapes you. If this was “all about rape”, how does the ruling allow abortion on demand (not just for rape victims)?

          • MaryB435

            We are talking past each other. We do not agree about what the POINT really is.

            The point is that it is wrong to deliberately kill the innocent.

            The pro-abortion side claims that this doesn’t matter, that if the baby is there without the continued express permission of the mother, that there is a right to kill the baby. The pro-abortion argument doesn’t make sense.

            The entire pro-abortion argument is founded upon dehumanizing the baby. I’ve noticed that the people who talk themselves into this position are always very unhappy.

          • purrtriarchy

            Logic does not appear to be one of your strong points. Which I guess is why you ignore all of my posts.

            The point is that it is wrong to deliberately kill the innocent.

            Not even in self-defense? If a sleepwalker/cognitively disabled person was to start assaulting and raping you, would you have the right to defend yourself, using lethal force if need be, to end the attack? The sleepwalker/cognitively disabled person are 100% INNOCENT. Just like a fetus, they have no awaerness of what they are doing. So, can you defend yourself against an INNOCENT disabled person bent on assaulting and raping you?

            yes or no?

            The entire pro-abortion argument is founded upon dehumanizing the baby

            If that’s the case, then explain to us why pro-lifers don’t put photos of this: http://jamieutt.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/zygote.jpeg on their literature? That is a human zygote, a ‘baby’ according to you.So, why don’t pro-lifers use photos of zygotes? It’s human, so it’s human-ness should be immediately observable, yes?

          • MaryB435

            Seriously? Pretty much of a long shot. Why don’t you just wake up the cognitively disabled sleepwalker? Do you watch too many “zombie” movies?

          • purrtriarchy

            Not a long shot. Sleepwalkers have been known to rape and assault their victims. Cognitively disabled people – those who suffered severe brain damage at birth (and have the mental abilities of a newborn) can get VERY VERY violent. And no, you can’t wake up the sleepwalker, won’t work.

            So, answer the question. The above cases have been documented, actual attacks. Would you undergo torture, assault and rape if an inoncent person with the mental faculties of a newborn started raping and assaulting you? What if the ONLY way you could escape was to use lethal force? Would you just lie back and accept the assault? Or would you kill them in self-defense?

            yes or no Mary

            You said you valued logic – this is actual logic.

            put up or shut up

          • purrtriarchy

            I have evidence:

            http://www.scotsman.com/news/sleepwalker-is-cleared-of-raping-teenage-girl-1-1496926

            Sleepwalker cleared of raping young girl.

            Schizophrenic man found not guilty of murder, due to mental illness:

            http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/man-with-schizophrenia-found-not-guilty-of-murdering-mother-1.1631848

            Autism and violence:

            http://www.autism.com/treating_self-injurious

            Anthony, an 18-year-old autistic man in England, was so violent that he had to be institutionalized. At the institution he broke seven windows in three minutes, and tried to attack women sexually, requiring severe restraints.

            Cognitive disabilities and violence:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686644/

            Studies suggest that up to 30 percent of outpatients with Alzheimer’s disease exhibit violent behavior.55
            Manic and demented patients are the most likely types of patients to commit violent acts or display aggression on an inpatient unit. Their victims are usually random bystanders rather than predetermined targets.Patients with mental retardation often use violence to respond to or communicate about psychosocial stressors, as their deficits preclude them from developing more adaptive, nonviolent ways of responding.

            ————–

            The mentally ill and the cognitively disabled have no control over their actions. They do not understand what they do – they are just as innocent as your precious fetus.

            So, if you can’t stop a fetus from harming you, because it’s ‘innocent’ then I am afraid, Mary, you have to let the above people beat the shit out of you and rape you, because, just like a fetus, they are innocent beings!

          • Suba gunawardana

            “We are talking past each other. We do not agree about what the POINT really is.”

            No, I have specifically responded to each and every point you brought so far. You keep ignoring them because apparently you have no rebuttal.

            The point in THIS conversation, as you specifically brought, was the concept that “NM lied about being raped, therefore the verdict is based on a lie”. As I and many others pointed out, that is NOT so. First, rape is not even mentioned in court records. Second, even if she DID lie about being raped, it is totally irrelevant, as the final ruling was NOT about a rape exception for abortion but rather for abortion on demand. Do you get that now?

            As to the rest of your points, every single one has been addressed already. Here goes again, copying & pasting from my prior posts:

            “The point is that it is wrong to deliberately kill the innocent.”

            In order to sustain each human life, millions of animals and plants are deliberately killed. All these non-humans are INNOCENT. If it is wrong to kill a human fetus because it is “innocent”, how is it ethical to kill millions of non-humans to sustain the future life of the same individual?

            Killing the innocent is fine when YOU condone it, but not fine when someone else does it in a way you disapprove. A huge
            double standard, don’t you think?

            “The pro-abortion side claims that this doesn’t matter, that if the baby is there without the continued express permission of the mother, that there is a right to kill the baby. The pro-abortion argument doesn’t make sense.”

            And WHY doesn’t it make sense? No individual has the right to live inside another human without their consent. Why do you think some individuals are exempt from this rule?

            You and I are human beings with rights. Do I have the right to use your organs to sustain my life WITHOUT your consent?

            “The entire pro-abortion argument is founded upon dehumanizing the baby. ”

            Again,It absolutely does not MATTER whether the fetus is human life or not. As I pointed out and you ignored: No individual (human or not) has the right to invade/occupy/use the body of another person without their consent. If the invading entity is human, they lose their rights the moment they invade another person’s body.

            “I’ve noticed that the people who talk themselves into this position are always very unhappy.”

            Really? Any proof of that? Looks to me like those constantly obsessed with other people’s sexual activities are the unhappy (and jealous) ones.

          • purrtriarchy

            One other question. If an innocent person did any of the below to you, to preserve their life, would you let them? Or would you try to defend yourself, even if that involved the use of lethal force?

            Normal, frequent
            or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness
            common from first weeks)

            altered appetite
            and senses of taste and smell

            nausea and vomiting
            (50% of women, first trimester)

            heartburn and indigestion

            constipation

            weight gain

            dizziness and light-headedness

            bloating, swelling,
            fluid retention

            hemmorhoids

            abdominal cramps

            yeast infections

            congested, bloody
            nose

            acne and mild skin
            disorders

            skin discoloration
            (chloasma, face and abdomen)

            mild to severe backache
            and strain

            increased headaches

            difficulty sleeping,
            and discomfort while sleeping

            increased urination
            and incontinence

            bleeding gums

            pica

            breast pain and
            discharge

            swelling of joints,
            leg cramps, joint pain

            difficulty sitting,
            standing in later pregnancy

            inability to take
            regular medications

            shortness of breath

            higher blood pressure

            hair loss

            tendency to anemia

            curtailment of ability
            to participate in some sports and activities

            infection
            including from serious and potentially fatal disease

            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
            non-pregnant women, and
            are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

            extreme pain on
            delivery

            hormonal mood changes,
            including normal post-partum depression

            continued post-partum
            exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
            – major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
            fully recover)

            Normal, expectable,
            or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse
            in younger women)

            loose skin

            permanent weight
            gain or redistribution

            abdominal and vaginal
            muscle weakness

            pelvic floor disorder
            (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
            and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
            incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
            the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

            changes to breasts

            varicose veins

            scarring from episiotomy
            or c-section

            other permanent
            aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
            by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

            increased proclivity
            for hemmorhoids

            loss of dental and
            bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

            newer research indicates
            microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
            mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications
            and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy

            spousal/partner
            abuse

            hyperemesis gravidarum

            temporary and permanent
            injury to back

            severe
            scarring
            requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)

            dropped (prolapsed)
            uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
            pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
            and enterocele)

            pre-eclampsia
            (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
            with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

            eclampsia (convulsions,
            coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

            gestational diabetes

            placenta previa

            anemia (which
            can be life-threatening)

            thrombocytopenic
            purpura

            severe cramping

            embolism
            (blood clots)

            medical disability
            requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
            many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
            or baby)

            diastasis recti,
            also torn abdominal muscles

            mitral valve stenosis
            (most common cardiac complication)

            serious infection
            and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

            hormonal imbalance

            ectopic pregnancy
            (risk of death)

            broken bones (ribcage,
            “tail bone”)

            hemorrhage
            and

            numerous other complications
            of delivery

            refractory gastroesophageal
            reflux disease

            aggravation of pre-pregnancy
            diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
            of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
            prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

            severe post-partum
            depression and psychosis

            research now indicates
            a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
            including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

            research also now
            indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
            in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

            research also indicates
            a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
            and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but
            serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy

            cardiopulmonary
            arrest

            magnesium toxicity

            severe hypoxemia/acidosis

            massive embolism

            increased intracranial
            pressure, brainstem infarction

            molar pregnancy,
            gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced
            cancer)

            malignant arrhythmia

            circulatory collapse

            placental abruption

            obstetric fistula

            More
            permanent side effects:

            future infertility

            permanent disability

            death.

            ——

            Be honest now. Would it be acceptable to force Mary to undergo torture to save an innocent life?

          • goatini

            //The entire pro-abortion argument is founded upon dehumanizing the baby.//

            More like, the entire forced-birth argument is founded upon dehumanizing the woman.

            There, fixed it for you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, I’m a happy person. Sorry to disappoint you :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk about myself. I am 70 now. I have never been so happy. Life is good.

            I live in a home which I own outright with two beautiful daughters. I have a lovely garden. I am involved in my community. My health is excellent. I am a produced playwright. I have healthy grandchildren. My blogs are doing well and that is a source of great satisfaction. I have good friends.

            One of the religious seminars I wrote “Spiritual Gifts: What is it? How to get one. What to do when you have the gift.” was very well received when offered at Quarterly Meeting. So I am thinking of writing another inspirational seminar.

            I am PRO birth for women who want to give birth. I am PRO choice for women who wish to abort. Just like the conservative Republicans who gave us Roe v. Wade. You fantasize my being unhappy. I wish you what you wish me.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Norma McCorvey is not the basis for Roe v. Wade. The Constitution is the basis. McCorvey was the appellant in the case.

            Norma McCorvey is more than just a liar. She never had an abortion. She gave birth to 3 children and raised not even one of them. One went to her Mother and the other two to foster care. She is a troubled woman who has found a home among forced birth cultists. Good for her. Everybody needs to be cared for.

            More info on RvW:

            In June 1969, Norma L. McCorvey discovered she was pregnant with her third child. She returned to Dallas, Texas, where friends advised her to assert falsely that she had been raped in order to obtain a legal abortion (with the understanding that Texas law allowed abortion in cases of rape and incest). However, this scheme failed because there was no police report documenting the alleged rape. She attempted to obtain an illegal abortion, but found the unauthorized site had been closed down by the police. Eventually, she was referred to attorneys Linda Coffee and Sarah Weddington. (McCorvey would give birth before the case was decided.)

            In 1970, Coffee and Weddington filed suit in a U.S. District Court in Texas on behalf of McCorvey (under the alias Jane Roe). The defendant in the case was Dallas County District Attorney Henry Wade who represented the State of Texas. McCorvey was no longer claiming her pregnancy was the result of rape, and later acknowledged that she had lied about having been raped. “Rape” is not mentioned in the judicial opinions in this case.

          • Rainbow Walker

            I read the testimony in depth in law school. We heard the tapes from the trial. She didn’t perjury herself. As I stated, her testimony had little effect on the trial. The question before the court was abortion on demand. Abortion in the case of rape was legal then. And rape wasn’t mention at trial nor in the opinion.

            Roe’s opinion is not based on a lie. It’s based on constitutional law.

          • purrtriarchy

            No sarcasm. You want to force the women of the world to undergo bodily injury, torture and even death because of YOUR beliefs.

          • Suba gunawardana

            This again? No you are lying about the case for sensationalism, which is pretty much the only trump card left.

            Think logically. If rape was remotely relevant to the final ruling, how does the ruling allow abortion ON DEMAND rather than just a rape exception?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why would you link your disqus account to the page of a teenage homeschooled girl? I take it that you at least know this girl? A relative? Either way, that’s more than a little weird.

          • fiona64

            Just one problem, dim-bulb … the case had nothing to do with rape whatsoever. In fact, it’s not even mentioned in the decision. It was based on the penumbra of the Constitution, which guarantee a right to privacy under the 14th Amendment.

            You might want to read up on that. Let me help you: http://www.lawnix.com/cases/roe-wade.html

            Quote from holdings and rule (emphasis added):

            – Yes. State criminal abortion laws that except from criminality only life-saving procedures on the mother’s behalf, and that do not take into consideration the stage of pregnancy and other interests, are unconstitutional for violating the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
            – Yes. The Due Process Clause protects the right to privacy, including a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy, against state action.
            – Yes. Though a state cannot completely deny a woman the right to terminate her pregnancy, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman’s health and the potentiality of human life at various stages of pregnancy.
            – No. The natural termination of Roe’s pregnancy did not render her suit moot.
            – Yes. The district court was correct in denying injunctive relief.

            You’re welcome.

            I apologize if I confused you with someone else. It’s convenient that your FB is no longer connected to your Disqus profile … wouldn’t want you to be outed, now, would we?

            I’m satisfied with the system of checks and balances that affords rights to *persons* (who are born entities). You want to take the away from persons in order to afford them to non-persons. You might want to ask yourself why that is.

            PS: Like I said, I used to be an anti-choice dimwit, too. I recognize your playbook, because I used it. Then, I went to a place called RealityLand and discovered that life wasn’t as black-and-white as I thought. I don’t know anyone’s circumstances but my own; that’s why no one’s pregnancy is anyone else’s business. For example, I think that the Duggars are looney-tunes for the way that they overbreed, but you don’t see me out there trying to legislate against their right to do so. Being pro-choice means supporting all choices (including having children, just so you know), even if I would not do the same thing in the same circumstances.

            My wanted pregnancy almost killed me; I will NOT go through that again. Period. If my tubal ligation fails, there will be an abortion so fast that your anti-choice head would spin right off. You don’t get to decide how much risk someone else takes. Period.

          • MaryB435

            It was based on the PENUMBRA of the Constitution–not the Constitution itself–which is how our laws are supposed to be made.

            Random House dictionary defines PENUMBRA as:

            1. a: the partial or imperfect shadow outside the complete shadow of an opaque body, as a planet, where the light from the source of illumination is only partly cut off.

            b: the grayish, marginal portion of a sunspot

            2. a shadowy, indefinite, or marginal area.

            The Supreme Court justices wrote that this case was decided upon “emanations from the penumbra” of the 14th amendment.

            Something that emanates from the indefinite marginal shadows is not a firm basis for law. Just as today, the justices predetermined the result they wanted, and worked backwards to come up with a justification.

            Good to know we both can do basic math. I went to Catholic high school. (The schools are usually divided into: grade school, K-8, and high school, 9-12.) I was a 14 year old freshman when Roe vs. Wade was decided. So, yes, this WAS a big deal, and we were all paying attention.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry that your Catholic school apparently did not teach civics.

            And that you think your Catholic beliefs should be forced onto everyone. Perhaps you should go live in Rome.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Do you claim the Roe v Wade decision does NOT uphold constitutional rights? If so, can you specify how?

            Remember, this is a different claim from what you made before, i.e. the decision was based on a lie. I assume you now see the error of that position?

        • goatini

          //Project Rachel //

          The tax-free cash machine for “Father” Frank Pervert, misery pimp.

    • purrtriarchy

      James Toups


      2 months ago

      Thank You. Desiree. It is painful to watch the devastation that
      abortion has caused across society and is causing among African American
      families. Keep up the great work.

      Tell us more about how you are so fucking RACIST that you believe that black women do not deserve the RIGHT to make their own reproductive choices?

      Tell us about your RACISM jimmy boy. Tell us how you want to keep black women in poverty and to suffer the side effects of pregnancy that can kill and maim. Tell us about your hatred of black women, sweetie.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Getting rid of an uninvited invader/parasite in your body IS basic healthcare. What matters is the patient, not the life/humanity of the invading entity.

      • James Toups

        Parasites are of different species.. come on basic biology 101. You can do better than that.
        You can hope to crush the conscience of doctors and nurses. No court in any land will side with you. Except Communist China and North Korea. No doctor or nurse who object will agree to participate in the killing.

        • Suba gunawardana

          -A parasite is defined as “an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host’s expense”. Doesn’t have to be a different species.

          -More importantly, whenever another individual invades your body without your consent, you have the right to protect your body by getting rid of the invader. The species of the invader (or their intent) is totally irrelevant.

          -A doctor is duty bound to protect his/her patient. They should not put the interests of an invader before that of their patient, for conscience or any other reason. A doctor who puts their patients’ safety & well being second to ANYTHING (including his/her own belief system) is not fit to be a doctor and should find a different job.

        • purrtriarchy

          The fetus is a functional parasite. In fact, embryos and cancers evolved similarly from a common ancestor.

    • lady_black

      Abortion is basic healthcare for women.

      • James Toups

        Abortion has nothing to do with Healthcare. Healthcare promotes physical and mental healing. Abortion does neither.

        • purrtriarchy

          Pregnancy and birth maim kill and injure women in the millions. How is it not healthcare james? Do women not have a right to be free of torture and disability?

          Answer me, please.

        • Guest

          Abortion and contraception are human rights. Illegal abortion and sepsis and hemorrhage in chiidbirth are the three leading causes of maternal death worldwide.
          Do not give up your day job. You make a lousy obstetrician.

        • lady_black

          It did for my mother. And she’s far from alone in that respect. You simply have no idea what you’re talking about.

        • Suba gunawardana

          ELECTIVE abortion has everything to do with promoting a woman’s health, safety, and physical emotional & financial well-being.

          Why else do you think a woman would choose abortion?

          • James Toups

            Fact: 60 plus % of women are coerced.

          • purrtriarchy

            Citation please. From a scholarly, peer reviewed source
            And answer all of the questions I asked you. That would be nice. You are here to debate right? Or are you only capable of repeating vapid talking points?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pure fiction.

          • Suba gunawardana

            -Coerced by whom? Please stop lying.

            -Coerced abortion is wrong, just like coerced birth. Only coerced birth is worse, considering coerced abortion leaves only one victim while coerced birth leaves two or more victims.

          • catseye

            We ALL know that claim was straight out of a random orifice. Puh-LEEEEEEEEZE!

          • goatini

            Pull another one out of your rear aperture.

        • goatini

          If I am pregnant, and do not wish to be, a safe, legal pregnancy termination is the ONLY medical care that will provide physical and mental healing.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Illegal abortion and sepsis and hemorrhage in childbirth are the three leading causes of maternal death worldwide. Safe abortion and contraception are human rights. How many peaches will you get if you harm the tree?

      • James Toups

        There is no such thing as safe abortion. The child always dies.

        • Jennifer Starr

          It’s fourteen times safer than giving birth.

          • James Toups

            Tell that to Roy Carhart’s victims.

            56 million unborn children killed in the USA since 1973 and counting. 3410 minimum each day.

            1.3 billion unborn children killed worldwide since 1973. 114,870 each and every day.

            Stats care of the WHO and Guttmacher

            Funny thing about #TRUTH you can not run from it even in rabidly proabortion RHLackofRealityCheck.

          • purrtriarchy

            Millions of people have died because blood organ tissue and bone marrow donation are not legally mandated.

            Tell us jimbo, should you be forced to put life and limb on the line to save the lives of all those sick kids in the children’s hospitals?

            Should you be forced to donate bone marrow to a 2 year old dying of leukemia?

            Yes or no?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Leroy Carhart is a good man and a good doctor. And children are born. If you know of anyone who is actually killing children, please inform the police.

          • Rainbow Walker

            So you want to break this down to numbers. Let’s do it.

            First of all cells aren’t children. Second far more women die each year in illegal abortions in jurisdictions that restrict or abolish the procedure bring huge tolls, resulting in approximately 47,000 maternal deaths and millions of hospital admissions per year globally.

            Lohr, P. A.; Fjerstad, M.; Desilva, U.; Lyus, R. (2014). “Abortion”. BMJ 348: f7553. doi:10.1136/bmj.f7553

            Shah, I.; Ahman, E. (December 2009). “Unsafe abortion: global and regional incidence, trends, consequences, and challenges” (PDF). Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Canada 31 (12): 1149–58. PMID 20085681

            Not counting the over 400 million unwanted children in the world and the fact that a child is abused every six seconds. Not enough food to feed those children, nor the infrastructure to properly care for them. That’s 43.8 million more unwanted children per year you want to add to the mix.

            The only reason one would want to add to that number is because you see children as a commodity to exploit. And that’s not even considering how you exploit women.

          • James Toups

            You automatically fail by calling unborn children “cell”. Science has proven human life begins at conception. That is a 1973 debate tactic.

            Your logic fails by saying it it better to kill a child then to have it possibly be unwanted.

            Proabortion continually fail and are losing ground because they fall on emotive debate not logic and reason.

            It is a failure in logic to say we must legalize murder because it is unsafe.

            Should we legalize all robbery because it will stop people from being robbed?

            It is just too easy to show the gigantic holes in your emotive relativistic thought process.

          • purrtriarchy

            A zygote is a single cell genetic blueprint sweetie. Nothing more than a little snippet of DNA.

            ^observable scientific FACT.

            YOU ARE WRONG

            NOT TO MENTION IGNORANT.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Repeating the words “fail” and “emotive” doesn’t make a point.

            I believe it has been explained to you time and again why abortion should remain legal. In case you failed to grasp it, here goes again.

            Every person has a constitutional right to be secure in their person, i.e. not to have their body invaded/occupied/used without their consent. (For example, I cannot use your organs to sustain my life without your consent. If I tried to do that you have the right to kill me in order to protect your body).

            An unwanted pregnancy is an invasion of a woman’s body without her consent, and she has a legal right to get rid of the invader.

          • lady_black

            “Unborn children” is an oxymoron. I think I’ll start referring to myself as an “undead corpse.” It makes just as much sense.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Human life does not begin at individual conception. Human life is a continuum that began eons ago. Google “mitochondrial Eve.” No individual woman having an induced or spontaneous abortion can destroy human life.

            A specific human life does not/may not begin at conception because 60% of fertilized ova fail to implant. 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage.

            You like logic? Okay refute me.
            Abortion is legal.
            Murder is illegal.
            That which is legal cannot also be illegal.
            Therefore abortion is not and cannot be murder.

            It is further relevant that abortion was not murder when it was illegal. Tell my why that is so, Einstein.

          • goatini

            //Proabortion continually fail and are losing ground because they fall on emotive debate not logic and reason.//

            More projection.

          • Rainbow Walker

            “You automatically fail by calling unborn children “cell”.

            ‘Unborn child’ is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Much like an undead corpse. A zygote isn’t a fetus, a fetus isn’t a child. And science has proven human life begins in the third trimester.
            You are confused. DNA doesn’t equal life, nor does a heartbeat. Brainwaves do. And that doesn’t occur until late gestation. Even then to call it “life” is a broad definition. Very much like calling a person in coma “alive”. Life involves much more than simple breathing and heart beats. It’s a complicated spectrum of genetic, biochemical, neurological and psychological interaction, all of which a zygote and a fetus lacks.

            [http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429]

            “That is a 1973 debate tactic.”

            So please, stop using it.

            “Your logic fails by saying it it better to kill a child then to have it possibly be unwanted.”

            It success because it is supported by science. As a psychologist I have poured over plethora of research. When a child is unwanted they have a great chance of being abused. When a woman is denied an abortion the consequences can be devastating.

            [http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_ocr2.php]

            “Proabortion continually fail and are losing ground because they fall on emotive debate not logic and reason.”

            Really? It seems all forced birthers have is emotions and no reasoning capacity. Take you for example. You think you know science. You don’t. You read from forced birth sites for your
            information. Then you claim I am being emotional, when it is actually you who are attempting to elicit emotion. “It is a failure in logic to say we must legalize murder because it is unsafe.” By referring to a medical procedure as murder you are attempting [futilely] to emotionally energize the topic.

            A whole lotta projection goin’ on.

            If abortion is murder then masturbation is as well. Totally ridiculous.

            “Should we legalize all robbery because it will stop people from being robbed?”

            This just proves you are irrational and highly emotional. How does this equate to abortion? Even the analogy is wrong. If someone robs another they are taking another’s rights away. Legalization would not stop this. Just as illegalizing abortion won’t stop abortion, which is a whole different topic. First of all illegalization strips a juridical person [the woman] of their right to choose] and attempts to create a juridical person where one cannot exist. The day a fetus can sign a contract I will believe your nonsense. And second [most importantly] it jeopardizes the woman’s physiological and psychological health in denying that abortion. And third [and just and important] bringing more unwanted children into an overpopulated world is just flat out stupid and cruel.

            But of course you know that, don’t you James? But you don’t care. My best advice to you is to extract yourself from the FLDS compound you live in and get out more in the world. And get an
            education. That way your religion won’t harm others.

          • cjvg

            That is the funny thing about science, biology and medical facts, you cant run from it no matter how rabidly anti-choice you are.

            Tissue that is genetically human but has no functional body, brain, organs or sentience is not equivalent to a baby. The reason medical sciences uses distinct and separate names for human developmental stages is because there are biologically very significant differences between a fully developed born infant and a blastocyte, zygote, embryo, fetus and a neonate.

            An embryo is not a newborn, it does not contain the full information present. With time effort and luck that information will progressively be acquired by interactions with the environment in the womb and complex internal negotiations within an increasingly complex embryo.

          • James Toups

            No matter how rabidly anti-truth anti-science you are you can not run from it.

            Complete Genome – moment of conception
            Heart beat = 21 days
            Brain waives = 43 days
            All organs present = 8 weeks

            Hmmm, I love science.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Are you claiming an embryo is a baby?

          • purrtriarchy

            Hmmm, I love science.

            Clearly, you do not *understand* it.

            BTW, cjvg is a neuroscientist. She knows more than you.

            Complete Genome – moment of conception

            So? A beating heart cadaver has a complete human genome, so does a brainless anencephalic baby. Yet they are often unplugged from life support/feeding tube and left to die, or have their organs harvested, because no mind = no person. Personhood is associated with the mind, not the DNA, dumbfuck.

            Heart beat = 21 days

            Cardiac cells can beat in a petri dish. It’s meaningless. And per my above example, brainless and brain dead can have beating hearts – but they are no longer considered people because their minds are GONE.

            Brain waives = 43 days

            So what? Primitive brainwaves signifying absolutely NOTHING. cjvg will school you on this. The fetus is not capable of sentience until at least 26 weeks. The brainwaves you speak of are utterly meaningless.

            All organs present = 8 weeks

            But not developed, and in some cases, may not even develop at all. If what you say were of any significance, the embryo would not NEED the woman’s body to breathe for it, eat for it, and process wastes for it.

            ————-

            Complete Genome – moment of conception
            Heart beat = 21 days
            Brain waives = 43 days
            All organs present = 8 weeks

            Well then at 8 weeks the embryo is so complete, as you say, then it should be able to survive outside the woman’s body, yes? Just feed it baby formula?

            fuck me but you’re ignorant

            jesus

          • purrtriarchy

            Here is some actual science for you, from biologist Scott Gilbert (hint: he knows more than you do)

            Instructions for Development and Heredity are not all in the Fertilised egg.
            The view that we are genetically determined by the combination of parental DNA has been shown to fall far short of the complete story. How the DNA is interpreted can vary greatly affected by things such as the maternal diet. Similarly some development requires certain bacteria to be present. Thirdly, and most surprisingly, the level of maternal care can determine which areas of DNA are ‘methylated’ which radically alters how they are interpreted. As such the view that we are ‘complete but unformed’ at conception is far from accurate.

            The Embryo is not Safe Within the Womb. Modern research shows that 30% or fewer fertilised eggs will go on to become foetuses. Many of these early miscarriages are because of abnormal numbers of chromosomes. The view that every
            fertilised egg is a potential human being is wrong in around 70% of
            cases.

            There is not a Moment of Fertilisation when the passive egg receives the active sperm.

            Again recent research has shown that the previous commonly held view that the fastest sperm races towards the egg and, bingo, we’re up and running is wrong on many levels. Fertilisation is a process taking up to four days. As such there is no magic moment, rather there is a process.

            There is no consensus amongst scientists that life begins at conception.
            There isn’t even consensus amongst scientists as to whether there’s consensus. However, Scott Gilbert’s paper lists embryologists who support each of the major view points belying the common and oft repeated assertion that there is consensus amongst embryologists, let alone scientists.

            Neurology

            Just as death is usually defined by the cessation of brain activity,
            so the start of life can be defined as the start of a recognisable
            Electroencephalography[wp] (EEG) pattern from the fetus. This is usually twenty four to twenty seven weeks after conception.[1]

            The point of using neurological factors rather than other signs
            such as a heartbeat is that this is a much more useful indicator from the point of view of science. A heart beats using mostly involuntary muscle movements so is really little different from any other spontaneous motion or metabolic processes. A heartbeat means relatively little in real terms, although it is more dramatic from an emotive point of view.

            Ecology/technology

            Here the start of life is defined as when the fetus can sustain
            itself outside the mother’s womb. Until this point, a fetus is very much dependent on its mother’s womb to the degree that it can’t operate as an independent unit. This is roughly at twenty five weeks, approximately two thirds into a pregnancy. Even at this stage when it can technically survive, however, a birth would cause major problems for a baby. The odds of it growing up with brain damage are much higher and it certainly would need specialist medical care to ensure that it would survive for
            an appreciable length of time. However, this point can be hard to pin down precisely, as it is less a point and more of a continuum
            of the probability of survival, and negative consequences of premature birth. In addition, this continuum can vary depending on available medical technology.

            Further past this point, a baby is born at the natural time.
            However, there is still one hurdle to jump in defining unique “life” and that is the nature of sentience, or self-awareness. Experiments on very young children show that they are certainly not as self-aware as adult humans – indeed in some cases other primates can beat them on the tests administered. The fact is that all humans are born somewhat prematurely, while the young of other animals can drop out of the womb or hatch from
            an egg and be up and running in minutes, human infants need far longer care. This is due to a developed human cranium being too large to be held by the mother and be given birth to safely, this problem essentially forces the mother to give birth at nine months when in an ideal universe it should be longer. So defining life based on self awareness, you’re not really alive until sometime after your first birthday.

            —————

            Biologist John Sullivan md phd writes:

            You and I contain much, much more information, both
            genetic and otherwise, than a blastocyst. That’s why I can write this column and you can read it, whereas a blastocyst just.. .sits
            there. Indeed, that is the exactly the point of stem cell research:
            the stem cells in the blastocyst have not yet acquired the molecular programming required for differentiation, and so they
            remain pluripotent, awaiting the necessary molecular signals (the information) that will tell them whether to become nerve or muscle, skin or bone.

            Yes, once upon a time we were blastocysts, too. Nothing
            more than a little clump of cells, each of them a snippet of DNA
            surrounded by cytoplasm. But that DNA was later transcribed into RNA, and that RNA was translated into proteins. And some of those proteins were transcription factors that told other cells in the blastocyst what to do, when to divide, where to migrate. Transcription factors regulated the expression of still other transcription factors. Genes were turned on and off with clockwork precision. Some genes were methylated, so they could never be turned on again.

            In other words, the genome and the proteome of the blastocyst were changed as the embryo accumulated molecular information that the blastocyst did not have.

            The embryo became a fetus, with complex orientations of
            tissues–loaded with spatial, genetic, biochemical and mechanical information that simply did not exist in the embryo.

            The fetus became a child with a nervous system, and that nervous system sucked up information about the world, hard-wiring pathways for vision and movement, learning to make subtle distinctions between this and that, accumulating information that simply did not exist in the fetus.

            In other words, the blastocyst launched a genetic program that both extracted and acquired information. It didn’t start out
            as a human being. It became a human being, with a personality, feelings, attitudes and memories, by accumulating
            information that was not there before.

            Equating a blastocyst with a human being is like equating a brand new copy of an inexpensive spreadsheet program with the priceless databases that you’ll eventually build up with that program. It’s no less ridiculous than saying that a blueprint has the same value as a skyscraper–that it is the skycraper.

            No. They are not the same.

          • purrtriarchy

            If you claim to ‘love science’ then you will read both of my SCIENTIFIC replies and respond.

            However, I won’t hold my breath, because I don’t think you’re intelligent enough to understand the science I presented you with. All that you are capable of doing is repeating the same talking points over and over because you’re incapable of any thoughts of your own. I guess this is why you have ignored EVERY single question I asked of you. Right cupcake?

          • cjvg

            Sure but lets discuss what you are deliberately and willfully ignoring since it completely contradicts your personal beliefs.

            You are entitled to your own beliefs, however you are not entitled to your own facts.

            With your reasoning a fertilized egg can live its life without the benefit of inhabiting a womb, after all it has all it needs to be considered a full human just like the woman right.

            Unless you are also actively are protesting to banish the use of
            organ transplants you are a hypocrite to the max. People who are clinically brain dead are used to provide the organs for transplantations. A fetus does not have the clinical brain activity to considered alive until 26-30 weeks of gestation

            So unless a fetus has the same level of clinical brain
            activity (first seen at 26-29 weeks gestation, well after legal abortion becomes unavailable) a fetus is not a sentient aware human being with the same rights as the woman in question, since a person who is declared clinically brain dead also does not have the legal protections that an aware sentient woman has.

            *Second, no other (medical) decision made by a competent
            legal adult is subject to any other third party restrictions then the consent and ability to pay of the woman and the medical opinion of the doctor in question.

            Since she is apparently mentally competent enough to make any other decision in her life, you have no right to force your ideological views upon her legally available choices.

            *Third, abortion is only practiced before birth, after birth it
            is called murder and nobody except the pro death-sentence supporter’s advocate making that legal.

            Also, child murder by starvation, deprivation and medical neglect is already legal in this country, and actively promoted and supported by this AD and the GOP who want to end food stamps, healthy kids and other social programs that ensure the born children stay alive! (Economic coercion, like you care)

            *Fourth, do you think shaming by name calling and obstructing
            physical access to clinics, murdering providers and firebombing clinics, instituting and extending waiting periods, forced pro-birth counseling, forced ultra sounds, limiting or distorting sexual biology education, limiting, keeping it out of insurance coverage and denying access to birth control is NOT physical, mental and economic coercion?!

            Dishonesty or just self-delusion, it is hard to tell with those
            who think their end justifies all means.

          • cjvg

            To bad you are incapable of understanding it

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          What child? There is no child until I make it out of my blood, flesh and pain. I will decide when and if to gestate any fertilized ovum to term. Not YOU. Not the state.
          It is not instant child.

        • Suba gunawardana

          In case you didn’t know, the patient in case of abortion is the WOMAN. Abortion removes an invader from her body, thereby promoting her health and well-being. The fate of the invader is not of concern. (Just like when you remove a tumor/parasite, the safety of the parasite is not a concern.)

        • lady_black

          No children are ever harmed in any safe, legal termination of pregnancy.

        • cjvg

          Claiming that a cell with 46 chromosomes in it is sufficient to be defined as a person, is absolutely the most absurd kind of extreme biological reductionism. In fact it is down right insulting

          A fertilized egg is a human cell but it is most definitely NOT a human being. Anyone with a shred of decency and honesty will accede that

  • asmith1234

    Unbelievable! Written like true fascists. Be careful, fascists… the same boot that you want to see come down on doctor’s necks, for not bending to your will, will also come down on your own neck at some future time regarding some issue that YOU don’t agree with. To lust after power and control over others is truly a character trait of an evil heart.

    • purrtriarchy

      Hitler was forced pregnancy, just like you.

      • asmith1234

        LOL, was that suppose to be a snappy come back? Can’t you do better than that?

        • purrtriarchy

          What? Can’t handle the truth?

    • Suba gunawardana

      And who are the biggest fascists on earth, notorious for lusting after power & control, and condemning punishing & murdering those who disagree with their beliefs? Religious nuts.

      • asmith1234

        Hmmm, It’s you that are advocating and lusting over power and control over another. You’re not only advocating force be used against doctors, but also the loss of their Constitutional freedom. Please keep in mind, history is littered with examples of when people are willing to place the hangman’s noose around another person’s neck, that same noose will be used against themselves in the future. In other words, the same freedom that you are so willing to steal from another will also place yourselves in the same position of loosing your freedom of choice.

        • Suba gunawardana

          Let’s see, which option involves control and subjugation of others?

          a) Expecting doctors to abide by the oath they CHOSE to take, or

          b) Forcing women to serve as breeding machines against their will

        • goatini

          //It’s you that are advocating and lusting over power and control over another.//

          More projection.

    • lady_black

      I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if a doctor opposes abortion, he/she ought to enter another field of medicine where there is no conflict with conscience.

  • asmith1234

    Fascists, (and I’m using the term in a historically correct manner for the definition of the word ‘fascist’), are only tolerant if you agree with them. Ultimately, if they can’t intimidate or economically force you to agree with them, they will resort to murder. Look at history and the blood shed caused in these types of tyrannies.

    • purrtriarchy

      And forcing women to give birth and act as gestational slaves isn’t fascist at all now, is it?

      BTW, Hitler outlawed abortion and contraception, because he wanted more little fascists to be born.

      • asmith1234

        Funny that you should bring up Hitler when he and Margaret Sanger, (mother of planned parenthood) had the same mission in life and world view. For your reading pleasure here’s a couple of quotes so you too can understand the root evil of abortion. It’s the same evil passion that drove Hitler.

        “…human weeds,’ ‘reckless breeders,’ ‘spawning… human beings who never should have been born.” Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants, African Americans and poor people.

        “We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”
        Margaret Sanger “Woman, Morality, and Birth Control” New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12

        • purrtriarchy

          1) Sanger was in fact anti abortion. MLK praised her. All those quotes are taken out of context.

          2) if you believe that PP is evil because of Sanger, then I also expect you to reject Ford vehicles and anything made on an assembly line ( henry ford was a great admirer of Hitler), reject all electronics including your computer (the inventor of the transistor was an anti black eugenecist) and to outright burn the US constitution because the founding fathers were slave owners.

        • Suba gunawardana

          The fact that Sanger may have been racist, in NO WAY diminishes the value of the services provided by PP including contraception and abortion. All much-needed services, and all ELECTIVE.

        • purrtriarchy

          http://www.11points.com/News-Politics/11_Companies_That_Surprisingly_Collaborated_With_the_Nazis

          And if you have ever used a product from any of the companies listed above you too are a nazi sympathizer.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          YOU ARE A LIAR.
          Margaret Sanger was opposed to abortion. You lifted those quotes out of context. Sanger was asked by prominent members of the Black community to open a birth control clinic in Harlem. I believe they could tell a racist when they saw one.

          And to put this eugenics nonsense in context, the States were still doing involuntary sterilizations of the ‘unfit’ until the late 1950s. Sanger sterilized and/or performed abortions on no one. She and her sister went to jail to get contraceptive and biological information to women.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Exactly. Look at all the religious wars; crusades; inquisitions of the past; and all the bloodshed going on in the name of religion right now. Including the perpetual subjugation of women.

    • goatini

      From the 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism:

      5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

  • MaryB435

    The doctors in Nazi Germany weren’t allowed the “luxury” of conscientious objection either. They too, were forced to kill.

    • purrtriarchy

      I’m gonna study to become an ob/gyn, but if a woman is dying from a pregnancy, I won’t help her, i will just let her die, because I object to abortion for any reason..

      PS The nazis were anti-choice, just like you

    • Suba gunawardana

      Conscientious objection is not only a luxury but a violation of a doctor’s ethical code, when it comes at the expense of the safety & well-being of their PATIENT.

  • purrtriarchy

    This thread is getting inundated with jesus freaks and anti-choice whackjobs because LAN wrote an article about this article.

    • asmith1234

      I know it’s a bitter pill for the control freaks, bullies, and other dictatorial types out there, but there’s a big world of people out there that do NOT agree with you and will NOT be intimidated or bullied by people like you.

      • purrtriarchy

        Preaching “abortion is murder cuz god” is not an argument sweet cheeks.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I could say the same thing about people who want to force women to carry unwanted or deadly pregnancies.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Roe v. Wade protects American women from forced abortion and forced childbirth.
        We already covered the meaning of conscientious objection. Perfectly appropriate as long as YOU/the doctor take on the burden of the objection. Transferring that burden to another is not CO, it is assault. And in the doctor’s case it may be malpractice. That is why the ACLU is suing the Roman Catholic Bishops. There can be no killing of women for Jesus.

      • fiona64

        Right back atcha, sugar.

        You are the bullying, dictatorial control freak, with your demands that women be forced to risk their life and health for unwanted and/or doomed pregnancies.

      • goatini

        //the control freaks, bullies, and other dictatorial types out there//

        Projection. And it’s the radical theocratic forced-birthers who are the bullies.

  • MaryB435

    The doctors in Nazi Germany were not granted freedom of conscience either. They were forced to kill.

    • purrtriarchy

      Hitler was forced birth, just like you.

      • asmith1234

        Ah, come on… you used that one on me. Is this your stock reply when you don’t know what else to write?

        • purrtriarchy

          Its the truth. And if you fuckwits are gonna compare abortion to Hitler this is what you are gonna get. Try to come up with some better arguments.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          What is your bibliography? Mine is The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Wm. Shirer. I read all of it and it took me almost a year to get through it all.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich

        • cjvg

          That is the thing with facts and reality, you can’t change them!
          So it is inevitable you will get the same response in answer to the same obvious lies

    • asmith1234

      Mary, what amazes me is that these people don’t seem to realize that they’re taking the same position as Hitler. They also can’t seem to comprehend that forcing anyone to do anything is tyranny. Just like all the tyrannies throughout history. Even more amazing to me is that they don’t seem to be able to comprehend that the same freedom of choice they want stolen from others will also be stolen from themselves.

      • Suba gunawardana

        You finally got one thing right. “forcing anyone to do anything is tyranny.”

        Exactly! Forcing women to carry pregnancies they don’t want is TYRANNY, Slavery. Stop doing it.

        • asmith1234

          Ummm, outside of rape, is anyone forcing these women into the position that caused the pregnancy in the first place?

          • purrtriarchy

            Do you support abortion in the case of rape?

          • asmith1234

            NO

          • purrtriarchy

            So you do believe in tyranny and slavery…for women.

            OK, I’ll just call you Little Hitler for now on, since you are such a fascist.

          • lady_black

            Then don’t have an abortion if you’re raped. I, on the other hand, would get rid of the spawn of a rapist so fast it would make your pointy head spin. Jesus Christ and a crowbar couldn’t force me to carry the seed of a criminal, and YOU don’t get a vote.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I would abort the spawn of a rapist in a New York minute. In 31 states, the rapist gets child visitation.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why not leave that decision up to the woman who’s actually raped?

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Why not leave that to the God that created that life?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well when you get pregnant from rape, by all means, feel free to leave your pregnancy up to the deity of your choice. Not everyone follows your particular ‘religion’ and believes that rape is god-ordained.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            When you conduct yourself like a harlot, why are you surprised when you are treated as one?

            God orchestrates, allows and controls EVERYTHING that has ever occurred in all of history. You may not like this, but it in no way diminishes its truth. You start from the false premise that life is all about you. the truth is that life is all about God, who He is and what His perfect nature is and what He wills.

            God creates some to become his born again adopted sons and daughters at some time in our lives. He creates many more who are not. He is sovereign and God of the universe. He can do anything He damn well pleases. You are merely His creation designed for His good pleasure, not the other way around.

            Not everyone knows or has any interest in the truth. Your existence proves this truth. As such, you are hardly qualified to determine anything that is true or false. You’re just deeply confused and lost. We get that. There are billions of lost fools just like you. Welcome to the end times of Bible prophecy that you are incapable of even grasping.

            I suggest you stop advertising your sexual availability and inviting rape at the hands of other wicked fools just as wicked as yourself. Those who live in glass houses are well advised not to throw rocks.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And for that disgusting post, nutbar, you just got yourself flagged.

          • purrtriarchy

            Over the top troll or for real fruitbat?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, he’s a full-on nutty as they come fruitbat. A racist neo-nazi and he thinks he’s a prophet, too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Into calling women dirty names and consigning them to Hell.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Truth is truth. Your time is up. It’s over. Your lies just don’t cut it any longer.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep. Flagged and downrated. It will be gone soon.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Up your God’s giggy, sideways.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Tell that to His son, Yahushua, in 2 1/2 very short years, demon. He will not be amused. And then He will banish you to the eternal lake of fire for all eternity. You deserve every bit of it and you know it. Yet you choose to defy and ridicule YHWH to His face. I have never witnessed anything more foolish. But hey, it’s your eternity! I’m good to go, so why should I care? You’re toast.

          • Jennifer Starr

            NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our *four*…no… *Amongst* our weapons…. Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Quite the Jewish, Satan-worshiping demoniac, aren’t you? Those of us of the truth and of YHWH have no fear and nothing to fear, but God Himself. The rest of you, on the other hand, have every reason to tremble in terror at the coming wrath of Almighty God upon the wicked in 2 1/2 very short years.

            The truth truly does set you free. Lies hold you in bondage to Satan. That’s why you’re toast. It’s just a matter of time. The die has been cast.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He is not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            This demon spirit accuses me of that which I never claimed. All a demon can do is lie and distort the truth.

            But I do claim to be who I am: a true prophet of YHWH and one of His watchmen on the wall in the final days of the end times in which we are now living.

            Let the wise understand. Those who are of the truth are the only ones who hear the voice of Jesus, He told Pilate at John 18:37. All others, those of the lie, serve the father of lies, the devil. The world is at war: a great spiritual war between the forces of good and the forces of evil for the souls of man. How the story ends has been predestinated by YHWH (God). That full story is revealed to God’s elect (born again adopted sons and daughters of the one true God, YHWH and His son, Yahushua) in His flawless and inspired words of the Bible.

            Satan, his demons and human slaves have sought to discredit the Bible for thousands of years and destroy it. They have failed. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the words of Yahushua will reign forever.

            We are now living in the era of the great tribulation foretold in Daniel 12 and Matthew 24: a time so deceiving, that if it were possible, even God’s elect would be deceived. But we are not. The rest of the world is. We are over 14 months into it, with less than 30 months to go until the second coming of Yahushua, prophesied in the Bible for thousands of years, is fulfilled.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You see, our experts describe you as an appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company and irrepressibly drab and awful. And whereas in most professions these would be considerable drawbacks, in chartered accountancy they are a positive boon.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You contradict Jesus who tell us to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” What is the perfection of Jesus’ God? It is Matthew 5:45 -
            “for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
            Everybody goes to Heaven. God loves absolutely. You are a false prophet and an embarrassing example of a Christian.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Folks, Plum Dumpling is a demon spirit.

            False teaching and doctrines of devils, such as this, are to be expected in these last days. Those who are of the truth will not be deceived by such hideous lies. Here’s the proof:

            “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” Romans 9:13

            “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?” Romans 9:21

            God simply does not love everybody. He detests even the prayers of the wicked, the Bible teaches the wise in Proverbs. The Bible cannot be comprehended by the wicked: those lacking the Holy Spirit of God to guide them into the intent of its divine author through inspiration of godly men who wrote precisely what God willed for them to write.

            “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and hall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that,mid it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Matthew 24:24

            Don’t be deceived by this con artist.

            God makes the sun rise and shine on all men (the good and the evil) and he sends rain on both too. That proves nothing concerning man’s eternal destination. We all deserve to go to hell for our numerous sins. To a few, not all, God offers us a chance at a pardon but it comes with a catch: we must follow and obey Him and His son, Yahushua, in all things. That is impossible unless god has put His Holy Spirit in us first. We must be born again in the Spirit of God to be saved and go to heaven.

            “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6

            The truth is pretty obvious to those who are of the truth. To those who are of the lie, the truth is incomprehensible and they are blind to it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Vola pazzo vola!

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Ooooh… another demonic incantation to send a curse my way… Sorry bud: you chose to mess with the wrong dude. I’m onto you in every way. I have an angelic host surrounding me to guard me from the likes of you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            “First you must find… another shrubbery! (dramatic chord) Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here, beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two layer effect with a little path running down the middle. (“A path! A path!”) Then, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forrest… with… a herring!”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Pazzo volando sulla sua bicicletta. Vola pazzo.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            See again folks? Just more demonic babbling of a wicked fool who is soon going to become eternal toast. Just watch. This should be quite educational.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Blessed is Arthur Crackpot and all his subsidiaries Ltd.

          • lady_black

            Actually, I believe it’s Italian, Einstein.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Si, è italiana. Uno dei linguaggi del Papa.

          • lady_black

            Just goes to show you, that poster is an uneducated “Bubba.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep. I thought your takedown of his “physics” argument was excellent.

          • lady_black

            Thank you. I’m no physicist, but I know the basics, and this guy is beyond dumb. I don’t know how he passed elementary school.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Knowing that you are batshit crazy & I am wasting my time, I will still ask you a couple of questions.

            -What’s your beef with Jews?

            -If “god protects his own”, why do the same misfortunes befall believers & non-believers alike? Diseases, injuries, & natural disasters do not discriminate.

            We already established that god doesn’t give a hoot about the innocent. But why doesn’t he protect those who kiss his ass?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            E che una scimmia sul manubrio della vostra bicicletta?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Apparently your imaginary god is not very helpful to you. Doesn’t even correct you when you mistake another language for “demonic incantations”! BTW how paranoid are you?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He is fooking nuts. He seems to nuts to be effectively dangerous but you never can tell. His ravings are pretty apocalyptic.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity. You can start in small ways with ping-pong ball eyes and a funny voice and then you can paint half of your body red and the other half green and then you can jump up and down in a bowl of treacle going “squawk, squawk, squawk…” And then you can go “Neurhhh! Neurhhh!” and then you can roll around on the floor going “pting pting pting”…

          • Suba gunawardana

            Again, why are your threats ALWAYS a thing of the future? Why can’t your god ever demonstrate his powers here & now?

            Simple answer. Your god lives only in your head.

          • Rainbow Walker

            Yes it is in his head. Arguing with him is futile. I have seen a hundred like him in psychiatric hospitals. Looking at his profile all his followers [and those he follows] are hate filled psychos. As I have said: pathologies draw themselves together like moths to
            flame. Crazies go where crazies are.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Just glanced at his profile & followers. OMG talk about a loony bin!

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Not at all. Simple answer: God will not permit Himself to be tested and He will not be mocked. His timing is perfect. Yours is not: it’s just selfish and foolish. You’ll see soon enough. 2 1/2 very short years is not far away at all.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            God loves me absolutely. There is nothing to be saved from. Everybody goes to Heaven.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            The only god you commune with is the devil, and he is no god: he is a created being (and a defeated one at that), just like you.

            Take your Satanic witchcraft back to your witches coven and destroy one another. Spare Yahushua the effort in 2 1/2 very short years.

            All men are damned at birth and most end up that way. Hell is more horrible than most men can possibly contemplate. I have had a premonition of it that changed my life forever. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him. All other pathways are dead ends and result in our eternal destruction.

            Don’t be fooled folks, this one here is a real life demon spirit. This is what they look like and how they attempt to deceive, the naive, the gullible and the trusting.

          • Jennifer Starr

            “And the Lord spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.”

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Folks, this is a demonic curse from this witch. What she hasn’t counted upon is who I am and the angelic host protection which YHWH surrounds me with.

            Her lord is Lucifer, the devil. Make no mistake about this!

          • Jennifer Starr

            We shall say “Ni” again to you, if you do not appease us.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are cracking me up. Seriously.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Pazzo.

          • catseye

            Also loco en la cabeza, fou a la tete, and verruckt im Kopf.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Also. I love the sound of “loco en la cabeza.”

          • catseye

            Oop, I left out dien ky dao. (Vietnamese.)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Brilliant :)

          • lady_black

            If I were you, I wouldn’t be so sure about how your god feels about your smugness. By the way, if you know your Bible, you would know that the resurrected Christ is a new creature with a new name, and that name is Michael. Before taking fleshly form, he was the Word. I don’t believe in your nonsense, but I do know what the Bible says. Maybe if you removed the beam from your own eye, you would be more fit to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye. You are certainly not anything like Jesus, who is probably my favorite philosopher.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wish you what you wish me.

          • MaryB435

            If you would like to engage in a reasonable discussion, it would be interesting to know what you think. The above disrespectful insult/ comment, however, makes no sense at all.
            When people discuss whether or not they agree with abortion, it is necessary to understand just exactly what abortion IS. I find that abortion advocates frequently refuse to discuss this, and instead often just change the subject to something shallow.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Did I make that comment to YOU? I despise his version of a god. I know nothing about YOUR version of God.

            I am not required TO KNOW LESS about theology than I actually do know because you cannot make sense of my remarks.

            You will not tell me what to write. I will respond to your comments whether you respond to mine or do not respond.

            I can tell you exactly what abortion is. This is the medical definition of ABORTION:

            1 : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:
            a : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation—compare miscarriage
            b : induced expulsion of a human fetus
            c : expulsion of a fetus of a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy—see contagious abortion, trichomoniasis b, vibrionic abortion

          • MaryB435

            Hostility does not help you to defend your beliefs.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You imagine I am hostile. I am explaining the/my boundaries to you. You seem to have no boundaries, intellectual or otherwise.

            I am aware that you have not responded to any factual argument that has been made to you. Not to mine and not to the arguments of others.

            Facts need no defense. There is not a single sentence I wrote to you in the post you responded to that is hostile and/or not factual.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, did you bother to read Watchman on the Wall’s loony ramblings before you made your original comment?

          • catseye

            Does that also apply to WotW with its ravings about demons and curses?
            Can you say, “Hypocrite”, boys and girls? I knew you could.

          • cjvg

            The facts she gives you are pretty darn inconvenient though. It is just easier if you pretend facts are hostile statements, isn’t it

          • goatini

            No, it certainly isn’t helping you at all.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Did you bother to actually read any of Watchman on the Wall’s comments before you wrote this? Is this actually someone you want to defend? Think about it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Mary is dumb as a box of gohmerts. That is why she does not respond to debate or factual argument.

          • cjvg

            Wrong, plenty pf the people here are actually medical professionals who have worked for years in the medical field.

          • Suba gunawardana

            For the record I responded to every point you brought. (Feel free to remind me if I missed any). You have yet to rebut ANY of those.

          • cjvg

            Don’t worry you are not the only one being shunned, I’m not getting any answers either, apparently we are not worthy (or to scary)

            Love your repeated requests for watchman’s god to exert his “powers” to stop you. It is almost sad to see his impotent spluttering, almost but not quite his beliefs are to vile for that

          • Suba gunawardana

            Forced-birthers are allergic to logic. Logic & reason to them is like garlic to vampires.

          • goatini

            //it is necessary to understand just exactly what abortion IS.//

            I assure you that each and every one of the reproductive justice freedom fighters here understand it quite well.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Why does your god create rapists? Why does your god create disease and natural disasters?

            More importantly, why should anyone abide by the judgment of a god who creates such suffering & destruction? Apparently he is neither very bright nor compassionate.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Where is YOUR responsibility in all this? God allows what man creates. Man is sinful and desperately wicked. Therefore, what other result would anyone in his right mind expect than rampant evil, pain and suffering in the world?

            You wanted knowledge of good and evil, you’ve got it. You chose evil and evil has consequences in the end. Seems like justice to me. Where’s your legitimate beef? You have none. Just a petulant temper tantrum and no honesty or accountability for your own actions and then you blame God for allowing it. How quaint. God and life don’t work that way. Grow up. Everyone must do so sooner or later or suffer the consequences.

            Why submit to an all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, all-seeing God (YHWH)? Because He’s the sovereign creator and man is His puny creation, created by Him for His good pleasure, not yours. He has no obligations to you. He most assuredly is not the indulgent and impotent dufus you wish for Him to be. He is brilliant and merciful and filled with grace for those who submit to Him fully. but you want your cake and to eat it too. Life doesn’t work that way. Get over it. Reality is not what you want it to be: it is what IS.

          • purrtriarchy
          • Suba gunawardana

            IF ” God allows what man creates. Man is sinful and desperately wicked” Then god created something sinful & wicked. Ergo, god must be sinful & wicked. Why would a “good & loving” person create a sinful & wicked race?

            EVEN IF god weren’t wicked, only man were, why would god ALLOW man to continue to in their “wickedness”, thereby victimizing all those weaker than them, and creating destruction? Apparently god doesn’t give a rats behind about the victims. Therefore, god is NOT loving or kind.

            So WHY should we submit to such a wicket uncaring being again?

            “Because He’s the sovereign creator and man is His puny creation, created by Him for His good pleasure, not yours. He has no obligations to you.”

            Then I certainly have no obligation to him.

            “He most assuredly is not the indulgent and impotent dufus you wish for Him to be.”

            He obviously is impotent & powerless (in addition to being cruel). God is supposed to hate other religions, but other religions abound. God is supposed to hate homosexuality and abortion, and look how much of that happens all the time.

            Suck up to the evil impotent boss all you want. but don’t expect others to be as stupid as you.

          • Watchman on the Wall

            Your syllogism is defective, as it always is with the wicked and the foolish.

            God is sovereign. He creates wicked and evil things to test, refine and purify His elect so that we may know good from evil and oppose what is evil and embrace what is good. The creature (sinful and imperfect man) is in no position to cast judgment on his sovereign creator. But the wicked mistakenly believe otherwise for a time. That time is now almost over.

            God is not a person. He is pure spirit. His ways and thoughts are not the ways and thoughts of man. So your attempting to project the defective nature of man onto YHWH (God) is ludicrous and certifiably insane.

            God cares. But not necessarily about you personally. He delights in me and everyone else who numbers among His elect, His spiritual sheep. But he creates many more who are His non-elect, His spiritual goats, to bring pain, suffering and affliction upon His elect to test, refine and develop our characters and our wisdom so that we might be able to commune with Him as He wishes us to be able to do.

            So you were created by God for your day of destruction to bring Him glory, honor and praise from His saints as He demonstrates His justice, power, might, wisdom and benevolence for His elect. Bummer for you. Most of you demon worshippers mistakenly believe you have free will. You do not. You are obsessed with doing that which is evil and you have no ability to do otherwise. Just as I have no ability to do that which is evil.

            You mistakenly claim that God is impotent, powerless and cruel. Nope again. Only out of God’s grace and mercy has He not crushed you like a bug already, for your sinful rebellion against Him. You mistake his long suffering patience for impotence. But when the hammer of His almighty wrath falls upon you, you will no longer suffer from your delusion. Cruel? Come on, for once be honest at how cruel and wicked you have been and how much you deserve to be punished for your many horrible moral crimes (sins) you have committed. You’re guilty and we both know it. How do I know? Because we are all guilty! Committing sins against others is cruel. Being punished for them is justice, which is a concept the wicked cannot understand.

            Yes, God has allowed much evil, pain, suffering and wickedness in our broken world to deliver a clear and unmistakable message to His elect: without submitting and surrendering our lives and our wills to the perfect will of His son, Yahushua, we are all screwed and heading for the hell we deserve. I hate what is evil and I oppose it with every bit of strength I possess. But the wicked oppose me and advance more wickedness and there are far more of you wicked fools than there are of God’s elect, because this is the way God designed life to be for now. But not forever. In 2 1/2 very short years, Yahushua will return to gather His elect, and to “tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God,” upon the wicked, just as the prophecy of Revelation 19:15 predicts.

            I have every reason to love, adore, honor, praise, obey and submit to YHWH with all of my heart. You don’t. I get that. Given my life experiences, I would be stupid NOT to trust in and believe God. Given the reason God created you and your fellow wicked fools, I would expect you to think that was stupid. Your life experience does not define mine. We are forever different: I am blessed and you are damned. You deserve your fate; I don’t deserve mine, and I know it, and am very grateful to God that He rescued me from myself. And that makes ALL the difference in the world!

          • Jennifer Starr

            We are the keepers of the sacred words: Ni, Peng, and Neee-wom!

          • Watchman on the Wall

            You’re toast demon! You know it, and I know it. Hear those roaring flames in the distance? Those are the fires of hell being readied for your imminent arrival.

          • Jennifer Starr

            We at the Church of the Divine Loony believe in the power of prayer to turn the head purple ha, ha, ha.

          • Suba gunawardana

            How come all you have are imaginary threats? “Roaring flames in the distance”? LOL! Why can’t your god ever do anything TANGIBLE?

          • Suba gunawardana

            In that lengthy insane rant, you failed to answer any of my questions. Obviously because you have no answers. (I have yet to meet a religious nut who does.)

            What you described is a vain cruel childish entity who creates suffering for his pleasure and supposedly shows favoritism to those who kowtow to him. (I have yet to see proof for the latter, considering disease & natural disasters affect believers & non-believers alike). Obviously not the type of person to worship (or touch with a ten foot pole). Keep your evil god, I certainly want no part of him.

            Now you keep claiming your god is all-powerful, which he obviously is not. As I said, if your god is powerful, why do other religions exist? Why do homosexuality & abortion go on? If he hates those things why didn’t he put a stop to them millions of years ago? Obviously impotent on top of cruel.

            You started this dialogue by saying: “Why not leave that to the God that created that life?”

            If your god has any power, that question never needed to be asked. Because god would have put a stop to abortion, and you wouldn’t have to ask people to stop abortion. Duh!

          • Watchman on the Wall

            The one who failed miserably was you. I answered every one of your objections and you remain clueless because God created you to end up this way.

            God does not create suffering for His pleasure. But a wise father knows that those He loves must be disciplined to learn truth and build their moral character and wisdom. You have none. God puts all of us to a test. You flunked.

            God shows no favoritism. Everyone is broken and guilty of sin and deserves the fires of hell as punishment. You deserve it and I deserve it. So be a man, suck it up, and prepare for what you deserve.

            God brings suffering on God’s elect to be sure. Because this life is a testing ground for immortality when we all receive resurrected bodies just like Jesus’: some for glory and many more for damnation.

            Of course you’re angry as hell and want no part of God. He MADE you this way!

            Because God hasn’t crushed you yet, in no way proves that He cannot do so this instant, if He chose to. He has chosen not to, because He has a bigger plan and story that is unfolding. He allows other religions to exist to deceive the likes of you and to challenge the likes of me to discern between truth and frauds. He allows homosexuality and abortions to test you and me and everyone else to see whether we will oppose them, or go along with them, even though both actions lead to the most hideous forms of demon possession. Anyone knowing this, who does and says nothing, is a coward, selfish and hateful of one’s fellow man. Again, this is part of God’s test which I have passed and you have flunked.

            God creates children from rape. Not a lot, but some. Why? I don’t pretend to know the full mind of God, although I do know His nature and the way He thinks. Can God create good out of evil He has previously allowed? Of course! God is sovereign and can do anything He chooses to do over a long period of time which you cannot see or fully comprehend, because you are not God, and He is.

            You make assumptions and presumptions about the thoughts and ways of God that contradict all evidence to the contrary, in God’s flawless and inspired word, the Bible. So after ignoring the evidence, why is anyone supposed to give any credence to any flawed conclusions you arrive at from your faulty thinking? The simple answer is that no one in his right mind should.

            It never dawns on the wicked that God can use evil to bring good. Yet God promises us precisely this:

            “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28

            You weren’t called. I was. And that makes all the difference in the end. You’ll soon see for yourself in 2 1/2 very short years. No words of mine can open the mind of those sent a strong delusion by God, in fulfillment of prophecy at 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. This is your fate. Bummer for you. But your wickedness and empty words just made me a better man. See how God makes good for me out of your evil? He does it all the time. You just can’t see it, and never will, until it is too late.

            “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried (meaning God’s elect): the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” Daniel 12:10

            Let the wise understand. This wicked fool never will. God just said so.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Another emotional rant with not an ounce of logic. Once again you failed to address even a single question I asked. For the record here they are again. Answer if you can (I certainly won’t hold my breath).

            -Why does your god create rapists? Why does your god create disease and natural disasters?

            -Why would a “good & loving” person create a sinful & wicked race?

            -EVEN IF god weren’t wicked, only man were, why would god ALLOW man to continue to in their “wickedness”, thereby victimizing
            all those weaker than them, and creating destruction?

            -why should anyone abide by the judgment of a god who creates such suffering & destruction?

            Your answer to the last question was, in a nutshell: “We should kowtow to the guy who has all the power”. Well, two things wrong with that.

            -One should NEVER kowtow to power out of fear. That is just
            wimpy & cowardly. When the guy in power is cruel & unethical like your god, one should absolutely NOT kowtow them but fight. Fortunately your god is imaginary, so there’s no need to fight.

            -As I pointed out, your imaginary god has no power. So your answer fails that “we should kowtow to his power”, as he has none. If he did, you wouldn’t be here clamoring about abortion. God would have stopped abortion long ago “in his infinite power”.

            You also claim god creates all the evil as a lesson for his elect. How stupid! If god were loving & powerful, why make his children stupid & evil, & make them struggle through eons of suffering to gain some knowledge? Why not just create them perfect to begin with?

            And you have yet to answer why your god “in all his power” allows other religions, homosexuality, abortion (and JEWS) to exist? LOL!

            How come your god has YET to demonstrate any of his powers? Accept it, he is a figment of your imagination.

          • lady_black

            Women are not responsible for the conduct of rapists, so how dare you ask a woman where is her responsibility? Her responsibility is to deal with rape as best she can, not an obligation to carry a criminal’s spawn.

          • lady_black

            Who?

          • cjvg

            Your god is not my god.
            Would you like to be forced to base your medical choices on the tenets of my beliefs?

          • Suba gunawardana

            So you believe in forcing rape victims to carry the rapist’s spawn, but expecting doctors to perform their duty as pledged is fascism?

          • goatini

            Rapists’ rights supporter. Disgusting.

          • Suba gunawardana

            The forced part is not GETTING pregnant, but CARRYING the pregnancy. No woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t wish to.

          • lady_black

            Consent to sex is not consent to gestate.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Asexuals must not make laws and rules for the sexually normal.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You tell your husband “Sorry Hubster but I have all the children I want so no more sex for the next 20 years because I might get pregnant and I do not want to abort.”
            That is the recipe for a fault divorce. It is called lack of consortium. Or it is the recipe for infidelity on the man’s part.

          • Arekushieru

            Treating a uterus and a vagina as two organs that only require consent once is illegal phenotype-based sex discrimination. Oops, misogynist.

          • cjvg

            So now consent to sex must be considered consent to pregnancy?
            You really do not know much about biology and human reproduction do you!

            Besides most late term abortions are the result of wanted pregnancies gone horribly wrong, but hey feel free to ignore reality you are good at it

      • purrtriarchy

        You want to force women to give birth. You want to deny women the right to autonomy and self determination. That is pretty fascist of you, sweetie.

        • asmith1234

          I’m confused… the issue of this article is FORCING doctors to lose their freedom, as outlined in the Constitution, and go against their conscience and do something that is morally wrong. How is this to be confused with women being forced to only go to one doctor when there’s plenty of doctors willing to murder for hire?
          To pull this switch is completely dishonest. The fact is, your goal is simply to FORCE your will upon another person. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with denying women, autonomy, self determination, etc. The farce is obvious when there’s doctors galore that don’t have any problem with murdering babies in the womb.
          Who, pray tell, is forcing women to only go to one doctor?

          • purrtriarchy

            I plan on becoming a heart surgeon. Yet I object to doing heart surgery. It pains my conscience to do so. If a patient comes to my hospital in need of a triple bypass to save their life I will just have to refuse to do the surgery because i object to it. If they die because my conscience comes before their health, too bad!

          • asmith1234

            It would be a dumb bunny of a patient to stick with a doctor that didn’t want to perform the surgery. Oh yea, in your imaginary world, the patient is chained to the doctor and can’t leave.

          • purrtriarchy

            In many cases, yes. Especially if the patient is bleeding out on the table.

          • cjvg

            Well if the doctor does not clearly define his objections until the patient has been seen and charged for their visit. Clearly it is only the patient that suffers. However, none of these doctors post clearly and easily seen signs or warn their patients until they are actually asking for these procedures or medications, why is that you think?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Doctors are supposed to put their patients first. The moment they put their patients’ well-being second to anything else (including another individual who is not the patient, or their own belief) they go against that ethical code, which would be malpractice.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Your way of thinking results in RCC hospitals being sued by the ACLU for not providing normal standard of care to miscarrying women and essebtually killing women for Jesus. WTF is moral about that?

            The conscientious objector must take on the burden of its conscientions objection. Transferring the burden of conscientious objection to Another is not conscientious objection; it is assault and often battery.

            If a doctor will not conform to standard of care, he must stop being a doctor and not harm women who do not share his “morals.”

            What is nonviolent civil/religious disobedience? Gandhi’s definition is the clearest in my opinion:

            “I have also called it love-force or soul-force. . . . I discovered in the earliest stages that pursuit of truth did not admit of violence being inflicted on one’s opponent but that he must be weaned from error by patience and compassion. For what appears to be truth to the one may appear to be error to the other. And patience means self-suffering. So the doctrine came to mean vindication of truth, not by infliction of suffering on the opponent, but on oneself.”

          • cjvg

            Doctors can have all the freedom they want, they just cannot force women to pay the consequences of their freedoms of choice.
            If you do not want to provide comprehensive reproductive care for females, DO NOT deliberately choose a field where you will encounter these situations.
            There are a multitude of specialties out there, deliberately choosing one where you can deny others their choice and force them to adhere to your beliefs is dishonest and repulsive!

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Hitler was anti choice, like you. He made abortion for “Aryan” women illegal and forced abortion and death on Jewish women.

      • catseye

        That is because we’re NOT. Hitler BANNED _all_ abortions right after he weaseled his way into an office he failed to get elected to.

      • Arekushieru

        Sorry, but you can’t give a fetus freedom of choice, not only because it’s INCAPABLE of making a choice (and by that logic, you’d be FORCING a fetus into birth. Oops) but because you’d have to grant a RAPIST the same ‘freedom of choice’.

      • cjvg

        Hitler was anti-choice and even instituted breeding programs, so sorry you are the one in the exact same ideological space as hitler

      • fiona64

        Mary, what amazes me is that these people don’t seem to realize that they’re taking the same position as Hitler.

        Sorry, dim one … that “honor” is all yours. Hitler was all about forced birth.

        Just. Like. You.

        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Lebensborn.html

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      No one “grants” me freedom and power. I have freedom and power and live up to it or I do not.

    • cjvg

      They voluntary made that choice, they where actually the ones who developed and designed the experiments. Reading and researching your claims before making these easily refuted statements would do wonders for your credibility!

  • MaryB435

    Homicide is wrong. I’ve noticed in many of the comments by the abortion advocates a glaring inconsistency. Some will deny that the fetus (which is Latin for “young one”) is a living human being with human rights. Others will admit that there is human life in the womb, but think that this young human life has no right to life. They consider the baby a parasite.

    Well, which IS the pro-choice position?

    • Jennifer Starr

      If abortion is homicide, how much jail time should a woman who has an abortion receive?

    • purrtriarchy

      So if someone or something is using your body without consent, and assaulting and even torturing you in the process, to use lethal force to escape the violation would be unjust killing in your opinion?

    • Suba gunawardana

      A “living human being with human rights” does not automatically have the right to invade/occupy/use the body of another human being without their consent.

      Do I have the right to use your organs to sustain my life without your consent? No. If I tried to do that, you have the right to kill me to protect your body. Same for an uninvited fetus.

      Use of another person’s body is a PRIVILEGE granted to some, only with consent of the host. Never a right.

    • lady_black

      I won’t agree that a fetus is “a living human being with rights.” It is “living” at the expense of another person’s body, and that is NOBODY’S “right.” So therefore, the pro-choice position is this: It’s every woman’s right to decide whether or not to take a pregnancy to term, and this is true at every point in the pregnancy. Wanted pregnancies go terribly wrong, too. It happened to my own mother, and it happened to me. My mother had an abortion, and I was able to finish my life-threatening pregnancy. Guess what? BOTH of us made the correct decision.

    • lady_black

      And not to put too fine a point on it, abortion is NOT “homicide.”

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      The prolife/prochoice position is CHOICE. Do you think every single woman here has had an abortion or would have one? If so, you have a problem with the way you think and your attitude.

    • cjvg

      To sum up your argument: “a human beings at any stage of development are persons”

      This clearly illustrates that you consider a single cell organism as just as
      much a person as the woman.That whole concept is incredibly ludicrous to anyone who has ever taken the time to look at a woman and at a fertilized egg!

    • fiona64

      Some will deny that the fetus (which is Latin for “young one”)
      Not *this* undereducated bullshit again.
      fe·tus/ˈfitəs/ Show Spelled [fee-tuhs] Show IPA
      noun, plural fe·tus·es. Embryology .
      (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, especially in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.
      Also, especially British, foetus.
      Compare embryo ( def 2 ) .
      Origin:
      1350–1400; Middle English < Latin fētus bringing forth of young, hence that which is born, offspring, young still in the womb, equivalent to fē- (v. base attested in L only in noun derivatives, as fēmina woman, fēcundus fecund, etc.; compare Greek thēsthai to suck, milk, Old High German tāan to suck, Old Irish denid (he) sucks) + -tus suffix of v. action

  • MaryB435

    Some things are just wrong. Abortion is one of them. We do not have a right to deliberately kill the innocent.
    To compare the baby to a parasite is not logical or consistent. If a pregnant woman considers the baby to be wanted, then the baby is treated as a human who has the right not to be killed. The doctor has 2 patients to care for.
    If the situation of the woman changes in some way, then the baby is considered as “uninvited”, and therefore NOT human, and without rights, and may be killed for any reason, or no reason. This is not consistent.
    To be logical, we must either recognize the fetus as human life or not. It cannot be both ways. When we study the development of the baby inside the womb, we cannot pretend that we think that this is just a “blob of tissue”. I have taken care of premature babies in the NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) who have been born at earlier stages than many abortions are done. The tiny babies are beautifully formed. No-one can see these tiny babies and think that they are less than human. One would have to be in denial to claim that.
    The preborn baby inside the womb is the same individual when he is born, when he is a toddler, when he is a teen, when he is an adult. In every developmental stage, this is an individual. He is not a part of the mother’s body; he has his own genetic make-up. He is not a parasite. He is human, not of another species as a parasite would be.
    We must not continue to fool ourselves. Abortion is wrong. No amount of PC rhetoric will make it right.
    I am writing to those who wish to engage in a thoughtful conversation in order to understand each other better, and to be able to learn the viewpoint of people with whom we disagree. Those who wish only to curse and swear are wasting their time. Dialogue works only when we speak civilly.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Most abortions–90%–are performed during the first trimester. There is no NICU which cares for any embryos or fetuses that are 12 weeks or less–they are not viable outside the uterus. Viability is 23-24 weeks and even then that’s a potshot. And a doctor has only one patient and that is the pregnant woman.

      • MaryB435

        You claim that 90% of abortions are done during the first trimester. Taking that number at face-value, what would you think about the other 10%? Do you think there should be any limits on killing those fetuses (young ones)?
        And what would your reply be to people who formerly worked in abortion clinics, but quit because they saw the killing and could no longer stand it?

        • Jennifer Starr

          What do I think? I think the decison of whether or not to end a pregnancy should be between the woman, her doctor and whomever she chooses to involve. I can’t be pregnant for someone else, therefore it’s not up to me to decide. And third-trimester abortions are generally in the case of severe fetal deformities and to save the life or health of the mother–again, a medical decision that only the pregnant woman can make.

          As to what I’d say to former clinic workers, I’d say that if a job is upsetting you, it’s probably best to leave that job and find another place to work. Honestly, what do you expect me to say?

          • MaryB435

            The former clinic workers report that the REASON they are so upset is because they saw the dismembered babies. I cannot discount their witness. They actually saw this. Many of these babies were fully formed–that is, until they were aborted. The former clinic workers came to the logical conclusion that they could no longer pretend that this was OK. They couldn’t hide from the fact that this is VERY wrong. I feel sorry for them. They are obviously very wounded. Many of them suffer too, from post-abortion syndrome. We need to help these women; we must never deny that their pain is real.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There is no such thing as post abortion syndrome.

          • MaryB435

            See http://www.rachelsvineyard.org to hear the actual women speak of the pain and grief they have experienced, and the hope and healing they have received. The women who have experienced it will tell you that there is such a thing as post-abortion syndrome.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So do not have an abortion. Your interest in death and suffering and the pleasure you clearly take in thinking about death and suffering is ghoulish. Ewww.

          • purrtriarchy
          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            On my way.

          • purrtriarchy

            Thanks. Sexual moralists are the worst.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It is a weird person with weird ideas.

          • purrtriarchy

            Imnotsorry.net

            You’re welcome.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, I went to that mental institution once. I read stories of women who are grieving imaginary pregnancies that never happened because they took birth control pills. These are people who have never had any real problems, so they need to invent one.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah I just finished reading the story of a woman who thinks that she might have had “multiple abortions” due to an IUD. It’s just insane.

          • purrtriarchy

            Hey sweetie, why don’t you inform yourself and read about women who suffer PTSD from birth:

            http://www.birthtraumaassociation.org.uk/

            http://www.solaceformothers.org/

            http://psychcentral.com/lib/postpartum-depression-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/00018497

            But then again, you think pregnancy and birth is all magical fairy farts and rainbows because you’re living in a fantasy world and don’t give a flying fuck about the SUFFERING of other women, do you?

          • purrtriarchy

            Fully formed doesn’t mean shit if it is not sentient. Braindead patients are fully formed, and even alive, but they are routinely unplugged from life support because once the mind is gone, there is no person present. A fetus has no mind. Just a body. And a body alone does not a person make, sweetie.

          • lady_black

            Actually, a brain-dead person is not alive, they are dead. There may be a heartbeat (because the heart has it’s own built-in pacemaker). The person will not breathe, though and must be mechanically ventilated. So long as ventilation is continued, the heart (which is only an electro-mechanical pump) will continue doing what a heart does. Decomposition is slowed, but not prevented. One by one, the organs will shut down and begin to decompose, and the integumentary system will also break down, in spite of changing the patient’s position. I have cared for such patients (usually as a result of being resuscitated after too much time has passed.) The brain begins to die four minutes after cardiopulmonary arrest. If it goes on too long, the entire brain dies. Caring for such patients can only be described as disgusting. They are cold to the touch, like the corpse that they are, because the part of the brain that regulates body temperature has ceased to function. And the body knows what has happened, and begins to decompose in spite of simulated “vital signs.” It’s a very stressful situation for those forced to give “care” to these “patients.”

          • purrtriarchy

            We’ve been over this before LB. I tend to simplify it for people like Mary here. And I hate typing long paragraphs on the phone.

            I was referring to patients who have lost all higher brain function but still have a functioning brainstem. Think Terri Schiavi vs marlise munoz. Terri was technically alive, but her mind was gone. No longer sentient.

          • purrtriarchy

            You are a wealth of knowledge btw. I learn a lot from your posts, and am glad that you have become a regular.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry; your post was not even remotely histrionic or dishonest enough. You’ll have to try harder in future.

          • expect_resistance

            Absolutely no such thing as post-abortion syndrome.

        • Suba gunawardana

          Why should there be ANY limits on abortion? YOU claim it is the same individual from conception through birth to death. So if abortion is OK it should be OK anytime from conception to birth.

          Why put an arbitrary limit at some point in gestation?

          • MaryB435

            Since it IS the same individual from conception through birth to death, you ask the wrong question.
            If you propose that abortion is “OK” anytime from conception to birth, why make birth the limit? Why have ANY limits, period?
            Some abortion-advocates have proposed “extending” the time that abortion is legal to some variable time AFTER birth.
            Their reasoning is that some diseases aren’t diagnosed before birth, and since it is easier (for both the mother and the doctor) to kill a baby you can SEE, birth is an arbitrary and inconvenient limit. This is the same individual, after all.
            Then where does it stop? Do we draw the line when the baby can crawl independently? Walk? Talk? Some developmental delays aren’t apparent until later in life. And what about mental abilities? Do we abort babies who may have an IQ that indicates severe mental retardation? What about mild mental retardation? What if they’re NOT born that way, but become disabled later, via injury?
            Don’t you see where this leads? Once we as a society begin to treat people as if their right to live depends upon someone else’s decision (even if it is the mother) no one can be assured that his or her rights will be respected.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Forced birth cultist Mary has brought its murderporn for show-and-tell.

            A fetus is not a legal person. A legal person is born or a corporation. If you kill or hurt a legal person, you go to jail. You want to kill a few persons? Go for it. See what happens. I think you are nuts.

            A fetus gains all the rights and privileges of legal personhood when it survives to and through birth.

          • purrtriarchy

            You are wrong. And ignorant as all hell about development.

            No, it is not the same individual from conception til birth. At conception it is merely a genetic blueprint. That blueprint has to be read, interpereted and expressed. There is a little thing called epigenetics that changes the expression of those genes. The genetic code that is in the zygote is NOT that zygotes destiny. It is not written in stone. You could take the same zygote, implant it in the same woman 20 times, and each pregnancy would result in a completely different person.

            Did you know that in the case of monozygitic twins that if they have both connected to a separate maternal blood vessel that this will change the genetic expression significantly?

            And fetuses lack the capacity for sentience until at least 24 weeks. Until then they are mindless, as the necessary thalamcortical connections in the brain do not exist.

            Why should a mindless animal organism have more rights than the woman in which it resides? Why should it have more rights than any other living person?

          • cjvg

            I don’t even bother going into that much detail most of the time.
            I noticed it confuses them so much they don’t bother to read it anymore. It seems they can only digest reality in small simple and easy to follow segments

          • purrtriarchy

            Which is also why I simplify the “braindead but alive example”. When you start talking about different parts of the brain they get all confused- so I just stick with ” braindead”

            BTW, you might get a kick out of this. The neuroscience “experts” over on SPL love to state that coma patients and pre viability zef’s have the same capacity for sentience- that a fetus with an incomplete brain is just like a coma patient with a damaged brain. Neither are currently exhibiting sentience, so if you can’t kill the coma patient, you can’t kill the fetus either.

            They will argue that a fetus NEVER HAVING HAD THE *CAPACITY* FOR SENTIENCE, is just like the coma patient who has LOST THE CAPACITY FOR SENTIENCE. As the fetal brain grows, the coma patients brain recovers! Exactly the same!

            Its just another potential is actual argument. Zygotes are already rational human beings because of their *inherent capacity* for sapience, being composed of human DNA.

          • cjvg

            Old and patently ridiculous claims. I have a response I’ve used on these argument before, it will save you the time and effort to type up a new one.

            You really need to get some form of education. Sentience
            does not leave while you are in a coma. A coma is an alternate form of consciousness just like sleep, and most certainly not the same as clinically brain dead as you seem to think.

            A person who is in a coma still has all the neural circuitry that is required for consciousness, as opposed to fetus under 26-30 months of gestation who does not have the brain structures that houses sentience at all

            A person who is in a coma (and not clinically brain dead) still shows brain activity in centers of the brain that a fetus under 26-30 months of gestation does not even have!

            A person that is in a coma still has a functional subconscious that does note and record events that happen while in a coma (that is why events or conversations that happened in front of the coma patient can be recalled by said coma patient when they wake up)
            as opposed to a fetus who has none of these capacities. This can clearly be seen on MRI’s where the self awareness area of the brain can and does light up in coma patients.

            A person who is asleep or in a coma can and will feel pain or pleasure and respond accordingly, a fetus under 26-30 weeks does not!

            Consciousness is private, subjective and experienced from a particular point of view: yours. This is what accounts for your point of view, for the unique “interiority” that gives the feeling that you exist inside your head somewhere. For instance;” Is your version of the color red unique to you or the same for everyone?”

            A baby has the ability to feel this, although they cannot yet verbalize it, it clearly lights up the area of the brain that is involved in self-awareness same as in adults and older (verbal) kids

            A fetus under 26-30 weeks does not even have these brain structures and those close to that time frame do not show any activity in these structures until they are fully formed.

          • purrtriarchy

            Thanks!!

            Ever since my main pc died I have not had access to your excellent essay on consciousness and EEG’s. Once I get that sorted, i will add it to my notepad document:)

          • Suba gunawardana

            Birth is the limit because, once born they are NO LONGER OCCUPYING YOUR BODY. No longer a parasite in your body.

            Don’t have much time now but I will respond in detail later. Meanwhile, I had responded to all your points before in another post.

          • MaryB435

            Evasive. I too am busy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Rude. She said she would respond in time.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And Mary did not respond to Suba’s first factual argument. Mary is being rude because she has no decent argument and she is out of her depth intellectually and factually. All she has is “abortion is a very bad no good thing.”

          • purrtriarchy

            she ignored a couple of my points too

            And every time I debate Rita, she refuses to acknowledge factual information

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Zealots do not do facts or reasoned argument. I am reminded of a Bob Altemeyer quote:
            “Dogmatism is by far the best fall-back defense, the most impregnable castle, that ignorance can find. It’s also a dead give-away that the person doesn’t know why he believes what he believes.” [Book 2006] The Authoritarians” by Bob Altemeyer

          • purrtriarchy
          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Going there now.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Angry truthful essay. I am glad I read it.

          • purrtriarchy

            Why are you so rude and dismissive sweetie?

          • Suba gunawardana

            I am NEVER evasive. It was you who avoided every single point I brought.

            For the record I already stated the most important point in response to your recent post, i.e. Birth is the limit because, once born they are NO LONGER OCCUPYING YOUR BODY. No longer a parasite in your body. What do you say to that?

            And here’s a copy & paste of my prior response so you cannot pretend you “didn’t see it” or something:

            I am rebutting one wrong argument at a time. Please counter.

            “We do not have a right to deliberately kill the innocent. “

            In order to sustain each human life, millions of animals and plants are deliberately killed. All these non-humans are INNOCENT. If it is wrong to kill a human fetus because it is “innocent”, how is it ethical to kill millions of non-humans to sustain the future life of the same individual?

            Killing the innocent is fine when YOU condone it, but not fine when someone else does it in a way you disapprove. A huge double standard, don’t you think?

            “To compare the baby to a parasite is not logical or consistent. If a pregnant woman considers thebaby to be wanted, then the baby is treated as a human who has the right not to be killed.”

            Wanted fetuses are kept alive NOT because of any right to life, but because the mother CHOSE to keep them alive. Doesn’t change the fact that it is still a parasite using her body. The woman is now CONSENTING to the use of her body by the parasitic individual. Not because the parasite has rights, but because she chose
            to accommodate them.

            “To be logical, we must either recognize the fetus as human life or not. It cannot be both ways.”

            It absolutely does not MATTER whether the fetus is human life or not. As I pointed out and you ignored: No individual (human or not) has the right to invade/occupy/use the body of another person without their consent. If the invading entity is human, they lose their rights the moment they invade another person’s body.

            “No-one can see these tiny babies and think that they are less than human. One would have to be in denial to claim that.”

            Doesn’t matter. No human has the right to live inside another human without their consent.

            “The preborn baby inside the womb is the same individual when he is born, whenhe is a toddler, when he is a teen, when he is an adult.”

            In that case why don’t you volunteer to adopt the aborted fetuses and treat them as you would a baby? All you would need is milk and a warm bed.

            “I am writing to those who wish to engage in a thoughtful conversationin order to understand each other better, and to be able to learn the viewpointof people with whom we disagree.”

            I presented thoughtful rebuttals to every point you brought. Care to counter?

          • cjvg

            A woman seeking an abortion lacks even less needed to be considered human. That is not stopping you from trying to take away her basic human right to the use of her own body! Please explain why the non-existent body and feelings of a fetus are so much more important and meaningful then the health, happiness and humanity of an existing woman?!

            I’m not denying their person hood since there is NO person hood to deny until the fetus actually has the brain structure to be sentient and considered a person as much as the woman.

            Alive is not the same as sentient. My arm is alive and so is a tumor, no one advocates that these cannot be removed when needed. You are playing a dishonest and inane game of semantics that is fooling nobody.

            You are not explaining why the rights of a fetus with person hood potential, can supersede the rights of a living breathing feeling sentient and fully aware person, the woman! Quit possible because there is no way to make it even remotely reasonable to argue that a life that exists right now, should have far less rights then a potential life that has not realized, and may never realize.

            To promote the abrogation of bodily sanctity with the reasoning that a potential body could possibly have its bodily sanctity violated before it can even claim a body is insane. And no, we did not all
            “get there” by forcing a woman to gestate an unwanted fetus.

            Most of us “get there” by explicit consent and agreement of the woman who actively tried to get pregnant! In case you do not understand what that means, it is not the mandated use of a woman’s body against her will, but an informed and wanted choice made by the woman with her full agreement and consent!

            Also if a woman can and must be forced to donate her body, health, life, wellbeing and finances for the good of a third party then you must be subject to the same for the sanctity of “person hood” of others. People like you who feel so strongly that a woman’s right to her body is subject to third party approval, should be mandated to be life organ donors.

            Your selfish and cruel refusal to donate kidney, a piece of liver, bone marrow, a cornea (no one needs two eyes) skin grafts, etc. is costing the lives of many who are on the transplant list today. Actual lives of kids and adults here now, breathing sentient and more deserving of life then a potential could ever be.

            You have no right to keep your own body inviolate to third party use, but to advocate laws denying the same rights to a woman who is pregnant. It is the pinnacle of hypocrisy that you are not trying to pass laws that remove your objections to said use of your body by
            third parties against your will.

          • cjvg

            Clinically significant brain activity is the criteria used to determine if a patient is deceased. At this point it becomes legal to discontinue life support, and use the former patients body for the harvesting of organs for transplant. Clearly medical science and the law agree that without a functioning brain the body is just a collection of tissue.

            A brain-dead person with a functioning heart/lungs/brainstem will still show electrical activity in the brain, but they won’t show the particular “brainwaves” that are characteristic of the higher cortical functions of cognition. So the whole EEG isn’t “flat”, just the part of the EEG profile that shows a thinking person is using that brain tissue. At this point no “person”, sentience or awareness is present in the body.

            Physicians use this rigorous criterion for death. Since EEG has given us the science and capacity to measure clinically significant brain activity it has been used as the sole criteria to determine death.

            A flat EEG (electroencephalograph) showing no organized activity in the cortex is the most important criteria used to determine death. If the cessation of organized activity in the cortex defines death, is it then not only logical that the onset of the same clinical brain activity defines were live begins?!

            No embryo or fetus has ever been found to have electrical clinical significant brain activity in the cortex (brain waves) before 26-30 weeks gestation, although extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies.

            “Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns, bilaterally synchronous electroencephalographic are seen at 26 to 29 weeks gestation.

            The studies used here are the exact same studies that the anti-choice groups use to “proof” that there is brain waves. What they conveniently forget to tell you is that only the primitive activity, of the same kind that is found in beating hearth cadavers who are declared legally dead, is seen! There are a multitude of more recent studies who show the exact same thing.

            Hamlin. (1964), “Life or Death by EEG,”Journal of the American
            Medical Association, October 12,113

            J. Goldenring, “Development of the Fetal Brain,” New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564

            K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM

            So yes, I 26 weeks would then be the point where abortion would be prohibited. However the law supersedes me and put that point at 24 weeks were no legal abortion can be obtained.
            The few notable exceptions are were the life of the mother is in danger, or were the fetus has such birth defects that it makes it incompatible with life.

          • purrtriarchy

            If a zygote is the exact same individual from conception until birth, then please explain to the class, oh wise one, why epigenetics plays a role in autism:
            http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2014/05/06/004853

            If a zygote is the same “self” as a future 40 year old, then every zygote should be autistic. Except they are not.

            Your ignorance is truly breathtaking.

          • fiona64

            Some abortion-advocates have proposed “extending” the time that abortion is legal to some variable time AFTER birth.

            Citation needed.

          • cjvg

            “Since it IS the same individual from conception through birth to death, you ask the wrong question.”

            Do you know what a 20 year old zygote whose development was held stationary at that point but allowed to continue gaining mass, would look like? Definitely not the same as a 20 year old zygote who continued its development track and is now a living human person.

          • MaryB435

            A 20 year old zygote? A zygote is the first stage of development where the individual is one cell. That’s a curious question, but unrealistic. What would be the point of attempting to have arrested development with increased weight?
            Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you may be trying to illustrate the idea that earlier stages of fetal development are much less complex than later stages. Of course, but that’s beside the point. The person has dignity which is not dependent upon the stage of development or maturity. Otherwise, adults would have more human dignity than teens, who would have more dignity than young children, who would have more dignity than toddlers, who would have more dignity than infants.
            But this is not so. We DO have varying levels of ABILITIES, and responsibilities, at every stage of development, but we have equal human dignity.
            This is what it means when we say that we believe that all men are created equal (“Men” refers to humanity; this is not excluding females.)
            The individual at the zygote stage is the same individual with the same set of chromosomes as he/she is at each subsequent stage of development with the same human dignity.

          • cjvg

            READING COMPREHENSION is a very useful thing, you should work on that!

            Clearly it is NOT the same individual since there is in actuality a huge difference between a zygote and a baby. Apparently even you must admit that the developmental stages a fertilized egg goes through are significant and can not be dismissed as irrelevant. You do not get to eat your cake and save it too.

            Well you are the one who claims that; “”Since it IS the same individual from conception through birth to death”
            you do not get to claim that it is but it isn’t, facts do not work that way.

          • purrtriarchy

            A zygote has no dignity and it has no complexity it’s a single fucking cell. Look at a trillion cell newborn vs. a single cell zygote. There is on comparing the two. A newborn is a sentient, nearly sapient being, a zygote is merely a genetic mindless blueprint.

            Since you believe that zygotes = babies, should we be allowed to adopt a petri dish of them? yes or no?

            The individual at the zygote stage is the same individual with the same set of chromosomes as he/she is at each subsequent stage of development with the same human dignity.

            Chromosomes mean fuck all

            A beating heart cadaver has the full set of chromosomes, but they are mindless (if the body is alive) just like the zygote. Yet they are routinely disconnected from life support/feeding tube because no mind = no person. You are talking about species membership, which is meaningless, considering the above. If all it took was chromosomes, then the beating heart cadaver with a living body or the anencephalic baby (missing brain) would be kept on life support indefinitely. They are not. They are allowed to die and organs harvested – because we associated personhood with the MIND, not with mere human DNA.

            This is what it means when we say that we believe that all men are created equa

            Person rights. Not human rights. All persons are created equal, not all humans. Because humans, as stated above,. do not all have minds, and no mind = death, pretty much. Personhood is in the mind, not the body. A beating heart cadaver and a zef all lack a mind.

            Furthermore, you don’t believe that ‘all men are created equal’ since you want to take rights away from women (treat them as gestational slaves) and grant rights to fetuses that no human has (the right to forcibly use people’s bodies as life support)

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          The other 10% are tragedies. Wanted pregnancies gone wrong. Sure would like to see you debate this Father:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo

          • geezer 56

            Plummers–I wish people actually knew the tragic circumstances in which late-term abortions occur. Or even early-term abortions. They can’t see beyond their own lives, and yet they want everyone else to march to their tune.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So agree. We are trying to educate them to the best of our ability. They are zealots. One cannot reason with zealots.

        • lady_black

          No. The woman is a person with rights, and comes before a fetus 100% of the time.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Those who wish only to curse and swear are wasting their time. Dialogue works only when we speak civilly.

      From what I can see, everyone here has been very civil to you.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I have been civil so far. More than civil. When I go to forced birth cultists websites, they throw me off without allowing me to make more than one or two posts. This Mary perosn, my name too, is already doing the good/evil dance which is insulting from the getgo.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Her name’s not actually Mary, but yes, it is insulting.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Really? How do you find these things out. You are so clever.

          • Jennifer Starr

            FB page attached to the account.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Ah ha.

    • purrtriarchy

      It behaves like a parasite. It suppresses the woman’s immune system, drills into her blood vessels, steals nutrients from her blood, calcium from her bones, raises her blood pressure, injects addictive substances into her body and dumps toxic biowastes into her body. That is what a parasite does.

      Furthermore, you do not seem to understand the concept of consent. If you do not want something in your body, and it refuses to leave, you are within your rights to remove it. If you are having sex with someone, and you ask them to stop, and they continue, it is now rape. Consent must be EXPLICIT AND ONGOING. If a woman does not want a zef in her body she is free to remove it, as it is no longer in her body with her consent.

    • Suba gunawardana

      I am rebutting one wrong argument at a time. Please counter.

      “We do not have a right to deliberately kill the innocent. “

      In order to sustain each human life, millions of animals and plants are deliberately killed. All these non-humans are INNOCENT. If it is wrong to kill a human fetus because it is “innocent”, how is it ethical to kill millions of non-humans to sustain the future life of the same individual?

      Killing the innocent is fine when YOU condone it, but not fine when someone else does it in a way you disapprove. A huge double standard, don’t you think?

      “To compare the baby to a parasite is not logical or consistent. If a pregnant woman considers the baby to be wanted, then the baby is treated as a human who has the right not to be killed.”

      Wanted fetuses are kept alive NOT because of any right to life, but because the mother CHOSE to keep them alive. Doesn’t change the fact that it is still a parasite using her body. The woman is now CONSENTING to the use of her body by the parasitic individual. Not because the parasite has rights, but because she chose to accommodate them.

      “To be logical, we must either recognize the fetus as human life or not. It cannot be both ways.”

      It absolutely does not MATTER whether the fetus is human life or not. As I pointed out and you ignored: No individual (human or not) has the right to invade/occupy/use the body of another person without their consent. If the invading entity is human, they lose their rights the moment they invade another person’s body.

      “No-one can see these tiny babies and think that they are less than human. One would have to be in denial to claim that.”

      Doesn’t matter. No human has the right to live inside another human without their consent.

      “The preborn baby inside the womb is the same individual when he is born, when
      he is a toddler, when he is a teen, when he is an adult.”

      In that case why don’t you volunteer to adopt the aborted fetuses and treat them as you would a baby? All you would need is milk and a warm bed.

      “I am writing to those who wish to engage in a thoughtful conversation
      in order to understand each other better, and to be able to learn the viewpoint
      of people with whom we disagree.”

      I presented thoughtful rebuttals to every point you brought. Care to counter?

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      A fetus cannot be innocent as it does not have the capacity or agency to be either guilty or innocent. Unless we can try a fetus for killing its host. You for that?

      • asmith1234

        You know, I am thankful for many of the comments to this article… I’m planning on keeping them as proof of the twisted mentality of the pro death people. I’ve read things on here before that referred to babies as things I’ve never heard before, such as parasites. Many of these comments are also good to show the violent nature of the pro death people when others don’t agree with them.

        • purrtriarchy

          Show us an example of this “violence” you speak of, cupcake. With a link. Thanks.

          • asmith1234

            From a comment above: “You come and say to me in person in the real world some of the things you have said to me here and I will give you the bitchslapping you so richly deserve. In a Quakerly fashion of course.”

          • purrtriarchy

            Which means zero violence. Sweetie.

            LOL but you are a little sloooow.

          • purrtriarchy
          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            She has no sense of humor. She cannot read for information. She is nearly illiterate. Her pal “Mary” is no better. They are a scream.

          • purrtriarchy

            They sound like sockpuppets

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            They are cutting and pasting their arguments from forced birth cultist websites I imagine. Neither of them has the intellect needed to write this stuff themselves or understand what they are posting. If they did, they would make better arguments.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Only if a person cannot read for comprehension. Anyone who can read for information will know immediately how limited you are.

        • lady_black

          My daughter referred to her own daughter while in utero as “my little parasite.” She loves her daughter. But she is aware enough to know that she was making a baby out of her own bones and blood, that the fetus wasn’t in there simply occupying space and taking care of it’s own needs. She had a choice. I had a choice. I’ve never had an abortion. I’ve been very lucky. And if you called me pro-death to my face, I would beat you down. I am pro-life. So naturally I am pro-choice.

        • Suba gunawardana

          All emotion, no logic or rebuttal. What is your point?

        • cjvg

          Irrelevant troll without reading comprehension and without morals, ethics, or empathy for anything other then a fetus before 24 week gestation

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      An obstetrician has one patient = the pregnant woman. When an issue occurs with a fetus or a neonate, that is the job of a pediatrician or other specialist. Have you ever given birth? You probably should not have an abortion.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      “Some things are just wrong. Abortion is one of them. We do not have a right to deliberately kill the innocent.’
      ……..
      Wrong. There are a number of situations in which killing is acceptable and not a crime: assisted suicide, defense of self or others, execution, war, police work, abortion for example.

    • lady_black

      I’m afraid I fall on the side of requiring more than human DNA to constitute a person with rights, and if you were honest, you probably do too. No one here has said that a zef isn’t human, because it cannot be of any other species in a human gestation. What we are saying is that the zef isn’t a person, and has no “rights” that amount to enslaving a woman in it’s service. Even if it were a person, it would have no such rights. Therefore, you don’t want to treat the zef as a person, but as a SUPERIOR person that has rights you and I do not enjoy. You cannot walk up to me and demand that I breathe for you, or provide the use of my body to support your own vital functions, even if you are my child. My own children in their embryonic and fetal states had no such rights either.

    • lady_black

      And no you have NOT cared for premature babies born before “many” abortions are done.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I wonder if this is the same girl who was claiming a while back that her mom worked in the NICU and that she was allowed to hang out there and watch everything, including premature births–which I don’t think would be allowed.

    • cjvg

      A woman seeking an abortion lacks even less needed to be considered human.
      That is not stopping you from trying to take away her basic human right to the
      use of her own body! Please explain why the non-existent body and feelings of a
      fetus are so much more important and meaningful then the health, happiness and
      humanity of an existing woman?!

      If you do not have awareness or sentience or even a body, how can you be considered a person who has the right to the sanctity of their ” non-existent body” and how can those rights supersede those of an actual aware sentient fully developed living breathing woman?!

      Why does a woman not have the right to sanctity and ownership of her body that you are so willing to grant to a fetus that is still in the process of even developing a body, let alone a functional brain that is sentient?

      Do rocks also have property rights in your world?
      If so why is a woman considered so much less?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    The forced birth cultists are ganging up to flag perfectly acceptable remarks they find objectionable.
    They do not respond to comments.
    They harangue and shame and blame instead of debate reasonably.
    They have no reasonable boundaries. Which is why towns and states find it necessary to enforce clinic safe zones. Forced birth cultists are thugs.

    • asmith1234

      LOL, You advocate the use of force against another to enforce your will yet you call pro life people, ‘thugs’. Wow!

      • purrtriarchy

        You want to force rape victims to give birth. That’s pretty thuggish. And it makes you a rape apologist.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        You come and say to me in person in the real world some of the things you have said to me here and I will give you the bitchslapping you so richly deserve. In a Quakerly fashion of course.

        • asmith1234

          Well, the proof is in the pudding… Fascists ALWAYS resort to violence and bloodshed. If they can’t control by intimidation or threats, they resort to murder. Just like school yard bullies.

          • purrtriarchy

            Is that why pro lifers bomb planned parenthood, assassinate abortion Obgyns, and list the home addresses and phone numbers of abortion docs and their patients? Is this why pro life politicians say that fetuses should have guns? That stand your ground should apply to abortion?

          • asmith1234

            Please see my comment above.

          • purrtriarchy

            Worthless content free blather from a rape apologist.

          • cjvg

            No, you are not let of that easy. You are here answering but as soon as you are asked to explain anything, anything at all you again are to busy.

            It is very obvious that you are content and honesty free, no surprise from people who abhor freedom of choice!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You clearly have a problem with reading comprehension. You have little to no sense of humor. And yet, like all zealot thugs, you demand to be in charge of the sexual and family lives of others.
            Please proceed. You are an excellent argument for reproductive rights for women.

          • cjvg

            Sure, giving the only person who will suffer the consequences the right to make her own choices is fascist and apparently witchy (?)
            And white is black and day is night of course

          • catseye

            Better watch those 3 fingers pointing back at YOU, dear. The terrorism by abortion opponents at the clinics proves my point.

          • A. T.

            How many kids have you adopted, out of curiosity?

          • cjvg

            Is that why anti choicers kill doctors, bomb clinics, scream insults and threats at women entering clinics! Thanks for acknowledging what they really are!

          • goatini

            //If they can’t control by intimidation or threats, they resort to murder.//

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

  • asmith1234

    To the authors of this article and to all of you pro death folks that have replied to my comments… I’m not going to waste my only day off in responding to the many illogical and mentally twisted off topic replies that I’ve received. Frankly, I have pity on many of you for your dark view of human life in general.

    The topic of this article is the use of force or coercion to force a doctor to perform an abortion. I think every single one of the replies veer over to the general topic of abortion which is really a whole different topic or issue.

    Some of the pro death people have argued that a doctor should not be a doctor unless he/she is willing to do abortions. Doctors, do NOT lose their freedoms outlined in the Constitutional simply because they choose to become doctors.

    Specifically, this is addressed in the 13th Amendement:

    “Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

    That stated, I would really hope that you think long and hard on the stealing of freedom and the use of force upon another because it supports your desires. It’s a two edged tyrannical sword. Every dictatorship and tyranny, in history, that has created massive bloodshed and wars, has the same method of operation in the use of force.

    In reality, what the authors of this article and many of those commenting propose is the enactment of tyranny upon this country. The profession of doctors is no different than any other profession be it a hair dresser, barber, carpenter, interior decorator, etc. In a country, WHERE PEOPLE ARE FREE, they are free to pick and choose who they work for and what work they want to do. Just as I am free to choose who I want to do a job for me, or, who I want to work for.

    Be careful for what you hope for as the same boot that you’re so willing to have placed upon doctors to force your will, will eventually come to rest upon your own neck regarding something that YOU find morally reprehensible or wrong.

    Know this, you may all have seared consciences regarding an unborn baby, but you will NEVER convince the entire population of this. A vast majority of people, Christians and non Christians alike, view abortion as murder. You can NOT control how others think or what they believe, nor, will you ever be able to silence them. To attempt to force another to commit, what they see as murder, is evil and tyrannical. Our nation could no longer be called a free nation, but one where the people would be slaves and forced to do that which is against their will.

    I do, sincerely hope that you think long and hard about the ramifications and the fruit that will be produced by the use of force against another’s free will.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      “To the authors of this article and to all of you pro death folks that have replied to my comments…”
      ………..
      Pathetic. Cut and paste nonsense it hardly understands. Insult instead or argument.

    • purrtriarchy

      You can’t rebut any of the replies, hence this content free post.

      And slavery is to force a person to labour on behalf of another without pay. You quite clearly support gestational slavery.

      I am disappointed that you are so worthless as a pro life debater. I was hoping for more.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Me too. Came in here all full of sound and fury and turned out to be a scrub.

        • catseye

          Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Apt and Shakespeare. Excellent.

      • fiona64

        It’s 5×5, baby …

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Persistent twat ain’t he.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I’m not too sure–this person is quite religious, which is something that 5×5 has never been.

          • fiona64

            You think he wouldn’t try to pull that card when all of the others fail?

            Syntax and arguments, other than religion, are pretty much identical. I suppose it’s possible that there is someone else out there who is just as stupid … and who just happened to show up after Chris’ latest banning … but it does seem unlikely.

            Unless, of course, we were linked by Calvin Freakburger or some other LieSiteNews idiot … in which case, all bets are off.

          • purrtriarchy

            I love how “Freakburger” has caught on.

            Hahahaha

          • Jennifer Starr

            Those little tantrums he throws are hilarious.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very good points, yes. I think someone did say that we were linked by Lie Action News

    • purrtriarchy

      Tell us more about how you want to force rape victims to give birth and logically explain how that does not make you a fascist thug.

    • asmith1234

      I’m so happy to see the witches found my post. Now, I’m off to get my ‘things to do’ list, accomplished.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Insult instead of reasoned argument. Epic fail.

        • lady_black

          And flagged too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            God knows she deserves it. She can rave that abortion is murder on forced birther cult websites. She will not do that here.

          • lady_black

            She called us “witches.” That was once a term used against women who didn’t “keep in their place” to execute them. People like her would be only too happy to do that again. They are quislings.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And she called us murderers.

          • catseye

            Proud Pagan here. We revere a Mother Goddess instead of some power-tripping p!ssant of a “Gawd”, and THAT was what made the inquisitors torture and burn the few of us they actually caught.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            For a long time the only way I could think of God or talk to God was to see God as a woman. I called Her Alice. I do not pray to a man or men. And I never will.

          • expect_resistance

            Me too!

      • Farmgirlli

        HaHa…. Been following those witches posts, needed a good laugh. Figure they all “catapulted” off the same turnip truck and wonder which color there “rock” is.

        • asmith1234

          Thanks! You want laugh… all I could think of was the witches from Hocus Pocus when I made my comment. With at least one of them, figure they probably are the real deal.

          • cjvg

            Ah, it is back the coward who can not defend his own words

          • Jennifer Starr

            You have terrible taste in movies.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Name calling is not effective argument. Flagged for calling us witches. As Lady Black points out that charge was used as an excuse to kill and torture effective and powerful women through centuries.

        • purrtriarchy

          there colored rocks

          Oh, the irony.

          Not that you would know what the word means, since you apparently can’t tell the difference between ‘there’ and ‘their’

          • Farmgirlli

            nope!!!! irony was “there” and yes I DO know “what the word” means on post….

          • purrtriarchy

            No you don’t. Youre an illiterate troll who has offered nothing more than a content free post.

            Now, sweetie, care to offer up an argument? Or are you too dumb?

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s a friend of Watchman on the Wall. She’s not too bright.

          • fiona64

            Just looked at her profile … and you’re right. She’s not 5×5 … she’s just a garden-variety religious nutter.

          • Farmgirlli

            nope!!!! Oh the irony WAS “there” and yes I DO know “what the word” means on post….now go back to your witches den and take “yur” cats with you.

          • A. T.

            ‘your’. I know that’s a big word, but I can explain if you need help.

            Troll better.

          • Farmgirlli

            It’s “yur” here in the Country sweetie..you gotta (There I go again!!!)
            be a city girl….

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, it’s still ‘your’. I don’t know what went wrong in your case, but most country people are not uneducated bumpkins.

          • Farmgirlli

            You just don’t get it…Smog is fogging yur beaner>>>>> I’m done wasting my time on you. From: a very well educated retired female that is blessed to live in God’s Country.stay in the city where you belong…you’d never make it here.

          • A. T.

            Given that God’s Country has produced you, that’s more of a compliment than anything.

            Be kind to your enemies. Pray for those that persecute you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not much smog here in southeastern Virginia, sweetie. And every single one of your posts here has displayed your total ignorance and lack of education, which is nothing to be proud of.

          • Farmgirlli

            Stay there…. you’d never make the first snowfall here:) and btw… I have been retired since 56…good education I’d say.

          • Jennifer Starr

            How is being retired since age fifty-six proof of any sort of a good education?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It is not. She is bad at English and debate. How smart can she be?

          • A. T.

            That does explain a lot. You’ve missed out on the passed 60 years. No big deal. Advancements, pft.

          • cjvg

            I have been retired since I was 34, so what

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you mean 1956, and you stopped reading since you retired, that explains a lot. :)

          • Farmgirlli

            btw…. Yes I do follow Watchman on the Wall– I see he has 20 followers and YOU have 7…what’s up with that???
            so done with you…

          • Jennifer Starr

            He’s also racist ,a neo-nazi. and he thinks he’s a prophet. Oh, and he’s under a five-year restraining order for domestic violence. The fact that you follow and defend someone like that suggests a lot about you that isn’t complimentary.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Apparently crazies are drawn to each other, and this is a perfect example…

          • A. T.

            ‘If you are good to those that love you, what is that? Even the Gentiles do that.’

          • Farmgirlli

            I am very good to those that love me A.T.and those that have hurt me as well, I have forgiven but will never forget, it’s part of being healed and set free. I especially Love the 3 wonderful women in my life that have Breast Cancer and struggle daily with crappy blood draws that don’t work, chemo, infections, and hair loss not to mention losing part of there body that has meaning, and struggling with the emotions we could never possibly understand.Those are the ones that matter … NOT this blog anymore. I do read the Bible daily with my husband, especially Love the Proverbs. there are 31 which when read will cover the month, I never tire of it and yes…even us Gentiles do it.

          • Suba gunawardana

            While I personally have a lot of sympathy for cancer patients, here’s a question for you as a believer.
            Why does your god allow these “wonderful women” to suffer? Why did he create this cancer to begin with?

          • Farmgirlli

            I really don’t know Suba…Someday that will be the first question I ask Him.

          • Suba gunawardana

            That was an honest answer :)

          • A. T.

            A lot to tackle here. First, I did assume you loved your family and your children.

            Second, I am very sorry that your family/friends have struggled with Breast Cancer. It’s a horrific thing to watch loved ones go through. I wish them the best and hope they recover.

            My point was you’re using the Bible and conveniently forgetting the passages that tell you how to treat your enemies and people that don’t believe. You’re not being a good witness and making our job harder. No one is leaving this conversation *remotely* tempted to learn about Christianity. The odds weren’t good for that anyway, but if they existed? You’ve killed it.

            I didn’t come here to convert people, to be overly clear. But if God comes up, I’d like to not be cleaning up after you and other unkind people that have embarrassed our faith.

          • Farmgirlli

            Yes I do love my family and children.
            Thank you for your best wishes for my friends-I don’t see a lot of compassion on this Blog Site.
            You don’t have to clean up after me or anyone else for that matter. I love the Bible and all it teaches even when the message is so hard…The Bible commands all true believers to confront error whenever they see it. Do you do this? If not, why not?
            The job of all followers of Christ is not to convert everyone we come in contact with. Our job is only to put a stone in the shoe of a non-believer to help him think more clearly about the important questions of life, an example was our discussion on abortion. God must do the rest, t’s not all about us, it’s about Him.

          • Suba gunawardana

            “Our job is only to put a stone in the shoe of a non-believer to help him think more clearly about the important questions of life, an example was our discussion on abortion.”

            So why don’t you do some thinking in return? For example, if you leave things to god’s will, why seek treatment for any injury or disease at all? Isn’t it hypocritical to “follow god’s will” ONLY in case of pregnancy?

          • Farmgirlli

            How do you know what God’s will is in any circumstance?

          • cjvg

            Clearly you pridefully claim to know. Do you realize that your god does not call women as prophets so you must be wrong in your beliefs

          • Suba gunawardana

            If you don’t know, why presume to know it ONLY in certain circumstances, such as when you wish to force a woman to give birth? How do you know it is not god’s will to abort?

          • A. T.

            I don’t agree with you on quite a bit. It doesn’t I would wish cancer on people or hope for anything but their speedy recover and the best for their families. You’re very welcome on that end.

            And you’re wrong, I do. You have proclaimed yourself a Christian. You have been unkind to people. You have given them certain impressions of Christianity. So when I meet people (probably not these exact people, but others like them) in life? I deal with that fallout. I get asked by Christians aren’t respectful or loving, when we fail. Or why would people thought it was okay to say or do certain things.

            Being unkind and showing a clear dislike *is* where you cross the line into not okay. This does help people think about important questions, it just makes people annoyed they dealt with rude people that didn’t respect them. If you had a bad day, week whatever? Okay. But it would be great if you went on differently.

            Calling people witches, unless they identify specifically as Pagan, for example, is not helpful.

          • Farmgirlli

            When there behavior reveals themselves to be evil and wicked it stands to reason they will be labeled.. Yes…I do hate evil and hate what God hates.Christians are not perfect… when we are badgered by people in general our flesh may be tempted to respond the way we are treated, its human nature. Christianity is not about perfection but about growing in Christ over time.

          • purrtriarchy

            Christianity is also about not being prideful and bragging about ones faith. It is definitely not about going around messageboards and pretending to be superior because of ones faith.http://www.gotquestions.org/pride-Bible.html
            Yeah. Your pride is the kind of pride that God hates. Self righteous and haughty. Tsk tsk.

          • Farmgirlli

            There you go…your profession of faith is highly suspect… your web site is man made…no thanks. (wondered when you’d jump in)

          • Jennifer Starr

            All websites are man made.

          • Farmgirlli

            Yes they are…especially this one with all the hired Trolls for $2,000 a month which you are probably one of them. I have much better things to do then play in this playground…wasted a lot of time on you people…for what…nothing! so now…..time to pull the weeds…just got rid of a few of you.

          • purrtriarchy

            Freak.

          • Farmgirlli

            Nope!!!! Farmgirl:):):)

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think your imagination is beginning to run away with you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wish somebody would pay me for messaging. At the rate I post online, here and everywhere, I would be a millionaire in short order. What a paranoid twatwaffle.

          • expect_resistance

            Me too. I would love to make an extra $2K a month.

          • fiona64

            Sounds like someone is angry that Liar Rose isn’t paying her to troll …

            What an active fantasy life this nutter has.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Leaving? Don’t let the door … well, you know.

          • fiona64

            What’s the matter, sweetie? Are you jealous that Liar Rose pays Calvin Freakburger to troll and you have to do it on your own time?

          • goatini

            This is a reproductive justice website and you are the troll here. If you couldn’t convince someone that your propaganda was worth compensation, don’t take it out on us.

          • fiona64

            ::snort:;

            Maybe she thinks that Calvin Freakburger and Liar Rose are gods …

          • purrtriarchy

            Your bible is man made.

            Your interpretation of scripture is man made.

            And thanks for proving my point about what a sinful, prideful little witch you truly are.

          • Farmgirlli

            Nope girlie…. All scripture is from God… and nope… never road a broom, a horse yup…. with a Bible in the saddle bag:) there’s 2 more up votes from your fans…go get um….. next time Caps your Bible…Its well deserved:)

          • Suba gunawardana

            If “all scripture is from god” just because you claim so, I can claim all porn is from god, and all websites are from god.

            If you think I am wrong, can you prove it?

          • Farmgirlli

            Your free to claim anything you want.
            II Timothy 3:16 states it clearly.. all scripture is inspired by God, I didn’t claim it…..God did.
            Porn is a way to defile humanity it is your little “g” god at work here.

          • Suba gunawardana

            No, it was Timothy who wrote that passage, NOT god.

            And it’s just you who claim anything about god right now. God isn’t here to back you up is he? Never was, and never will be.

            You didn’t answer my question. Did porn come from god? If not, can you prove it?

          • Farmgirlli

            Of course Porn came from God, indirectly because God allowed it in order to fulfill His perfect plan.
            Now… there is my reply and I am done with you too. just pulled another weed.

          • Suba gunawardana

            You are contradicting yourself you know.
            -First you said “Porn is a way to defile humanity it is your little “g” god at work here.”
            -Then you said “Of course Porn came from God, indirectly because God allowed it in order to fulfill His perfect plan.”

            Which is it?

            Now what is the role of porn in god’s “perfect” plan? More importantly, what is the purpose of abortion in god’s “perfect” plan?

          • purrtriarchy

            So god wrote the bible, with his own hands?

            Please explain all of the contradictions then.

          • Farmgirlli

            No…He inspired 40 Godly Men as authors of the Bible to write precisely what God intended.
            You can make a dumb dog sit can’t you?
            Then why is it so difficult for you atheist to accept that God can inspire Man to do anything He wants?
            Please reveal a single contradiction… it may take you a while…talk to you in the morning:)

          • purrtriarchy

            Please explain all of the contradictions then:
            http://bibviz.com

            If the bible was written by god, there would be zero contradictions.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So god inspires everything that happens on earth? Then god must inspire all the abortions & all the homosexuality. So what are you bitching about? Remember, god controls everything….

          • Farmgirlli

            God tells us in His word what is evil and what is good…God says Thou shalt not kill. Abortion kills.
            Those who disobey God and kill unborn babies will be called to account one day.
            Having said that God can forgive anything done by a person with a contrite and confessing heart that turns away from such a sin.

          • purrtriarchy

            Its THOU SHALL NOT MURDER

            Which is why yhwh ordered the genocide of the amalekite people – fetuses included. Killing was fine as far as yhwh was concerned.

          • Suba gunawardana

            So does god care about these “babies” being killed? If so, why does he never step up to protect them?

            If god cares about babies, he could have put a stop to abortion eons ago. Instead he lets in continue. Doesn’t that mean god does’t give a rats ass about babies? If your god doesn’t care, why should you?

          • cjvg

            Well then what are you complaining about clearly god wants abortions to take place and witches and atheists to exist as well as your family members to have cancer. You do not need to come here and name call incessantly, it is gods will

          • fiona64

            Please reveal a single contradiction

            How about 101 of them? http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm

            You’re welcome.

            BTW, if God is so much against abortion, why is a woman forced to consume an abortifacient in Numbers 5? Just curious …

          • goatini
          • fiona64

            Learn the difference between “road” and “rode.” And, BTW, the correct form is “ridden.”

            So much for your claims of education …

          • goatini

            Which “scripture”? Which “god”? The three monotheistic desert cults each have their own “scripture”. The Vedas scripture has many gods. The Dianetics scripture has no gods. The Book of Mormon teaches that men become gods. None of these is any better, or worse, than another.

          • Jennifer Starr

            How had we revealed ourselves to be evil or wicked? You started in with the attacks from your very first post. We didn’t start in on you.

          • Farmgirlli

            Your replies to others gave you away….sick

          • Jennifer Starr

            What, to Watchman on the Wall? Neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers tend to do that to me, and he’s both. No apologies for treating him like the disgusting person that he is.

          • fiona64

            Yes, it’s so “sick” to call out white supremacists/Neo-Nazis for being the sorry pieces of shit that they are. /sarcasm

          • A. T.

            It is human nature. I’m just asking you to please go on from here differently.

          • cjvg

            You wickedly started your first post by badgering all here, you then judged without your gods authority to do so, in fact in direct contradiction of his word.
            You displayed zero respect or empathy for the lives of women and falsely called yourself respectful of life. You gave false witness and made unsupported statements defaming women you know nothing about, AND you then claim to be a good Christian and complain that the people you incessantly belittled, insulted and judged lesser beings are NOT NICE TO YOU?
            The evil and hatefulness you so arrogantly and full of pride display is like a physical stain over your words. You are the personification of hypocritical and hateful

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What a self serving excuse for hatred and sneering.
            Jesus said: He who beats his brother must answer for it to the court; he who sneers at him will answer for it in the fires of Hell. It is your Hell and you are going to burn brightly in it by your own lights.

          • fiona64

            “You may be certain that you have created God in your own image when God conveniently hates the same people you do.” — Anne LaMott

            BTW, you need to learn the difference between there, they’re, and their. Oh, and the difference between its and it’s.

          • Farmgirlli

            “Perfectionism is the voice of the oppressor”–Anne LaMott
            Au Contraire— Perhaps all the misspellings are…..
            Intent: something planned???? Perhaps:)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Perhaps all the misspellings are…..Intent: something planned????

            Proof that you’re functionally illiterate?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have two girls with dyslexia. Both of them have terrible spelling. They are nevertheless avid readers. And they can use a dictionary and spellcheck. And they write better and spell more accurately than the FG person.
            Generally, my rule is if I can read it and it makes sense, nevermind the spelling. This woman makes no sense. And she is mean and ignorant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I have a habit of typing words that sound the same but aren’t, especially when I’m tired, or putting in new words altogether–I once had water running down someone’s rainbow instead of their elbow–which my editor thought was hilarious. I also have a habit of missing words from time to time. No one is perfect, certainly not me. But when called out on these mistakes I don’t try to pretend that I did it on purpose. You’re right. This woman is mean and ignorant.

          • purrtriarchy

            Noe that I am typing on my phone I have noticed that I constantly leave out apostrophes. Its too much of a hassle to switch the keyboard so I just say fuck it. Like right now, my ‘its’ is incorrect.

            And as I am sure you have noticed, I often edit my posts multiple times. I can never seem to get the words out in the right order first time around. No matter how hard I try!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Watch my posts first thing in the morning–I edit frequently. Especially those missing words :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            You do great. I always enjoy reading your posts.

          • purrtriarchy

            You’re too sweet!

            I like what you had to say recently about shrubberies and dead parrots:P

            Very interlectual.

          • purrtriarchy
          • Jennifer Starr

            LOL-I love Blackadder :)

          • Suba gunawardana

            Was the plan to divert from your lack of rebuttal to valid arguments? Well, spelling errors don’t quite do that…. :)

          • goatini

            //Perhaps all the misspellings are….. Intent: something planned????//

            When all else fails, attribute one’s illiteracy to “intelligent design”.

          • cjvg

            giggle snort, can’t help it intelligent design, that is priceless

          • cjvg

            Please enlighten us as to the big plan for using misspelling and grammatical errors. They were most certainly not puns, like for instance the deliberate misspelling of theocrazy when alluding to theocracy (correct spelling for those grammatically impaired)

          • fiona64

            Nope, they’re not planned; you’re just dumber than a sack of hammers.

          • fiona64

            Someone needs to re-read Matthew 6:6 … because someone is in direct violation thereof.

          • goatini

            Someone also needs to re-read Matthew 7:3.

          • Farmgirlli

            I have already owned it…. nice try.

          • goatini

            Your comments prove otherwise.

          • cjvg

            There are different kinds of faith. My grandfather was a deeply religious man and he lived it but never preached it. The one thing I always remember him saying to any form on condemnation or unflattering speech about anyone is:” you have not walked in their shoes”
            I’m not religious, and despite being raised in a Christian faith will never share any beliefs in a god again after what I have seen and experienced. However if your demeanor is anything to go on your faith has my respect also. This farmgirli not so much, I have no problem calling her and her brand of faith evil and a darkness in this world!

          • A. T.

            I won’t say I’ve fully escaped being judgmental (I troll mean people. I admit it!) and I have my less serene moments, but the work I do has definitely humbled me. Before I used to go (example) how could people use drugs when they were pregnant?! Then I found out that hurting people do a lot of things. Not things I agree with always, but things that came out of pain or what life tossed at them. Which seems to be what your grandfather knew, because he was a very wise man. ._.

            heh. Which is what I was telling her. I do play clean up and I’d rather not. Would also rather people not be hurt. People can sometimes respect disagreement, but never cruelty.

            Aw. Thanks. I will try to live up to half of that. ;_;

          • cjvg

            Nobody escapes being judgmental, you are human!
            However you have the honesty to learn and look at yourself, as well as a healthy dose of empathy apparently. You’ll be fine!

            And just as an aside in certain cases were someone is willingly and deliberately encouraging cruel and pitiless behavior it is just fine to judge. Not all behavior can be met with tolerance.

          • cjvg

            And that is proof of what exactly?
            Do you realize that Stalin had a whole country full of followers as did Genghis Kahn, Nero, Mao, And even Osama Bin Laden had more then 20 followers. I do not belief that way that these guys had such stellar and wonderful ideas!

          • cjvg

            “a very well educated retired female” that is sadly unable to use correct grammar or even admit that she made a mistake.
            In your case this statement is indeed a contradiction in terms.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Now you are insulting education, retirement and females all in one breath.

          • Farmgirlli

            Hahahaha Suba!!! I LOVE Retirement…education in this day and age has issues, so glad kids can be home schooled now days, pretty scarey world today for a kid to get a good education.as far as females… we can’t all agree, and I’m ok with that.

          • cjvg

            You are uniquely unqualified to provide any form of quality education, this you have gone out of your way to proof to us extensively

          • cjvg

            Hmm, no!
            Being a farm girl does not in anyway make you ignorant or unable to comprehend and correctly use grammar

          • Suba gunawardana

            No. Only religious nuttery does :)

          • cjvg

            Nods head with emphasis.

          • A. T.

            Hardly. I’m from a thriving metropolis of 20,000 or so, the biggest town in an area of smaller, rural ones.

          • Farmgirlli

            Good… stay there. were at 1,600

          • A. T.

            I’ve been to nice tiny towns, so I’m more inclined to think it’s a personal problem.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I spent eight years (late ’70s-early ’80s) in a tiny Arkansas town whose only claim to fame was the KATV tower. Which sadly fell down.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Failure to use apostrophes makes baby Jesus cry, you know.

          • A. T.

            Somewhere in the middle. ;)

          • Farmgirlli

            :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t actually know what irony means, do you?

          • Farmgirlli

            i·ro·ny1
            ˈīrənē,ˈiərnē/
            noun
            the expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
            ““Don’t go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony”
            synonyms: sarcasm, causticity, cynicism, mockery, satire, sardonicism More
            antonyms: sincerity
            a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.
            plural noun: ironies
            “the irony is that I thought he could help me”
            synonyms: paradox, incongruity,

            There is “Yur” definition… glad I
            could help
            you out:) have a pleasant day

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s ‘your’, sweetie. Now perhaps you’d care to explain how your original post was ironic in any sense of the word.

          • A. T.

            She is able to use google. That’s almost something. ;)

          • Jennifer Starr

            My personal opinion is that she’s embarrassed by the misspelling and trying to save face by claiming that she did it on purpose. Kind of lame.

          • A. T.

            I note she’s avoiding me. That’s not telling at all, nope!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I have cats, yes. Two of them. I also love dogs, though sadly I don’t have any at the moment. I even have a broom, which I use for sweeping, though a vacuum works better. My den has a small television and DVD player on which I’m currently viewing season 4 of Scarecrow and Mrs. King. Next I might watch Hart to Hart or maybe even The Rockford Files. Be afraid…be very afraid……

          • Suba gunawardana

            What have you got against cats?

          • Farmgirlli

            They shed all over…I’m a quilter, the only good thing about them is they kill the voles in the fields:) Funny…. how a few of the blogs of others I have been reading are referenced to witches and there pic’s are cats…Hummmmm…

          • Jennifer Starr

            I hope you’re better at quilting than you are at reading and writing. Incidentally, dogs shed too. Still love them.

          • cjvg

            All creatures are gods creations, or so the bible the word of your god states. You are insinuating that the creatures your god created, those he claims as his divine creation are evil? Your god made evil incarnate and created….. cats?

          • Farmgirlli

            You forgot Cap on Bible and God…not little “g” “b” they deserve the BIG LETTERS!!!!

          • cjvg

            Not my god, I do not owe your god or his book any deference

          • Suba gunawardana

            Why?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No need to capitalize the word god if you do not believe in God or gods. The lack of capitals has meaning in itself.
            You cannot read your own native language for meaning and nuance. But in spite of your disability, you feel you must be in charge of the sexual/family lives of women you will never know. Not one of you forced birth cultists is intelligent or sane.

          • cjvg

            Thank you, no disrespect meant to your God (I understand you are a Christian) and beliefs. But then again your God is not a flaming a$$hole that does help my level of respect tremendously

            Respect must be earned and deserved I always believed. The tenets of your faith give respect and therefore receive my respect in return, even if I do not share your faith

          • goatini

            Only to your cult.

          • Farmgirlli

            Better than your satanic cult….. there you go Starr… better give him another up vote.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Getting a mite tetchy about your lack of up-votes, aren’t you?

          • Farmgirlli

            I could give a flying rats ass about upvotes, in the end what do they really mean… Not a dam thing!!!! you people and your silly games. You are so desperate for the approval of others who share your same wicked and foolish views that you hold, you will find plenty of deviants that will agree with you. That does not prove anything. This blog is done/over/out to pasture.

          • goatini

            I happen to think that those who actively and aggressively seek to violate and destroy the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to reproductive justice are deviants.

          • Suba gunawardana

            How many times did you say you are “done”? Did you notice you are still here? :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve lost track of how many times she’s flounced off now.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Awful lot of words and exclamation points for someone who claims not to ‘give a flying rats ass’.

          • Farmgirlli

            For now I do persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.————–Galatians 1:10

          • Suba gunawardana

            What’s your point?

            BTW how are you supposed to please Christ?

          • goatini

            Try Galatians 3:28.

          • Farmgirlli

            So what’s your point? My point was that Galatians 1:10 teaches us that to seek the approval of men and this wicked and depraved world, does not merit the approval of God. Thus, only the insecure, who have rejected God are desperate for the approval of other fools.

            II Timothy 3:1-7….I’m choosing to be obedient from this post forward.

          • cjvg

            Can you give the Sarah Palin impression a rest already

          • goatini

            Again, your cult is no better than any other cult.

          • Suba gunawardana

            It is a well-known fact that cats have been scapegoated throughout history along with women. Nothing to go “hmmmmm” about. How wimpy and cowardly of religious nuts to pick on animals.

          • purrtriarchy

            bullshit

            and you’re up-voting your own posts

            lol

            you’re an ignorant troll

            congrats

          • Farmgirlli

            Excuse me… up voting my posts…not hardly…Ha!!! me… a Troll…heck No…but will take the Congrats for being a Farmgirl
            Many Thanks:)

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, you’ve been up-voting your own posts. You do realize that we can see where an up-vote came from, don’t you?

          • Farmgirlli

            Absolutely… Nice try Chickie

          • expect_resistance

            You can’t lie you way out of this one.

          • Farmgirlli

            I just checked all my posts and yes… my error… found only one-corrected.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually there were a lot more before we called you on it. It wasn’t just me–everyone else here will tell you they saw it as well.

          • Farmgirlli

            Go for it then show me… the only one was corrected. I do see however there are 3 of
            you that tag one person for the day to try to put a squeeze play on them by each of you up vote each other… talk about insecurity. I’m done with all of you

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, stop whining and playing the victim. No one tagged you–you and your friends all came here of your own free will.

          • fiona64

            She certainly has an ego on her, doesn’t she? Believing that she’s somehow being singled out and “picked on” — risible.

            If she doesn’t want to be called out for stupidity, she should stop being so stupid.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She seems to be under the impression that her posts are somehow intelligent–this morning she kept alluding to ‘pulling weeds’–not sure what that was about. Her grammar and spelling are so poor that it’s downright laughable.

          • purrtriarchy

            We are the weeds. Everytime we respond to her idiotic statements, she has “pulled” us from the ground. To smite us. Obviously.

          • cjvg

            We are not allowed to approve of post we agree with? You are one to talk about insecurity!

          • goatini

            There’s still another one. I have a screen grab.

          • purrtriarchy

            Yeah dumbass. Your post has a 1 next to it, and that 1 came from you.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep I saw it too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Liar.

          • fiona64

            Hey, dummy? We can see that you’re upvoting your own posts. Your “handle” shows up.

            You LieActionNews sorts must take the short bus to school if you don’t know how easily you’re found out.

        • cjvg

          Dishonest and irrelevant troll, just here to spew her hatred of all women that did not choose her form of servitude and thereby are invalidating her choices!

          • Farmgirlli

            Nope…not a troll…just a farmgirl that hates Witches/Cults and all they represent…my form of servitude is to God and His word in the Bible, maybe you should look into it…, Your journey out of the darkness.

          • A. T.

            No. No you’re not pulling this crap. Go back and actually read the Bible. Read more than one chapter, particularly parts with Jesus. Do you need me to suggest verses? Books? Prophets? Don’t even play this game.

            Edit: Try Jonah. Now go read your Bible and do something useful with your life.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And yet you’re friends with Watchman on the Wall, who does actually belong to a cult and thinks he’s an actual prophet and that we’re all going to worship him one day. Now there’s some irony for you.

          • Suba gunawardana

            What’s your definition of a witch and a cult?

          • cjvg

            What a wonderfully eloquent argument your name calling and unsupported personal assumptions make. Your rebuttal of those who call you out on the deadly realities created by your self-righteous and ignorant assertions is beyond compare in its clarity and informative nature. Your diagnosis of women who belief in choice as witches is simply brilliant and beyond the needs for facts, proof, reason or reality

            Of course you immediately changed my mind with the endearing and respectful demeanor you so prominently displayed, you of course must be right.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            These are the rules that Jesus followed. Jews knew about and practiced abortion. Ignorant chunt. Try Numbers 5:11-31.

            Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

            An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.
            http://www.jewfaq.org/index.shtml

          • Farmgirlli

            #1: I do not read the Talmud
            #2: I am not a Jew
            #3: I am Pro-Life
            #4: End of your argument chump!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, that’s not the end of an argument. That’s simply an admission of ignorance.

          • Suba gunawardana

            How do your ignorance and lack of rebuttal end an argument? ALL the points still stand.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            She thinks if she is mean enough she wins. That alone makes her claim to Christianity a blasphemy and most likely a lie.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Jesus was/is a devout Jew.
            I am prolife so naturally I am prochoice.

            You do not read the Bible. That is clear.
            l doubt you are intelligent enough to even understand Numbers 5 11:31 which is from the Bible and a fragment of the Talmud.
            You are stupid and you want me to be stupid along with you. When sexpigs like YOU fly.

          • A. T.

            Do you believe in abortion if the pregnancy is life threatening?

          • Farmgirlli

            No A.T. I don’t…there is a reason for it. Dr.’s don’t know everything. I have a friend who knew her baby would be stillborn and yet she continued with pregnancy and gave birth to a beautiful daughter that was still born…That would be a tough one.If it were me for that reason…being a Christian I would “Be still and know that He is God” He knows better than I, There would always be a question…anyway for me if I did that… was my life really threatened? or were the Dr.’s wrong? would not play Russian roulette on that one! On a side note… at 18 I was foolish and had an abortion and have been sorry in later years as it was all about me and my selfishness. My thoughts only.

          • Suba gunawardana

            In that case why seek treatment for ANY disease or injury? It was “god’s will” after all.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Stop pretending that all Christians are opposed to abortion and reproductive justice. That is a stone lie.

          • Farmgirlli

            re-read above post Dump…. My thought only

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nonsense. You do not think.

          • Farmgirlli

            Don’t really care about your concern Dump. You really don’t matter….

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, she matters. And she makes a hell of a lot more sense than you do.

          • Farmgirlli

            You don’t matter either..2 peas in a pod or cats in a rack—

          • expect_resistance

            Yawn. Is that all a got? You have no real arguments only personal attacks.

          • Farmgirlli

            WOW… Jennifer is giving you all kinds of upvotes… please take your own advice…”no arguments only personal attacks” your a hypocrite own it:)…………………Ta Ta………For now:)

          • cjvg

            You started off with name-calling and you have not finished since, neary a word go by and you add more. No one here called you names until you racked up so many that they had enough. Apparently you can not see the mirror when held up to reflect your ugly behavior!

          • cjvg

            Full of arrogance and claiming unto thyself the right to judge, again! Compounding your sins and proud of it!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            All she has for argument is sneering. Pathetic.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very.

          • expect_resistance

            I second that.

          • cjvg

            Judging, throwing stones (name calling) belittling an diminishing another creature of god! Oh how proud your god must be for ignoring his commands to love they fellow man!

          • Jennifer Starr

            The only one who should be able to decide whether or not a woman should risk her life for her pregnancy is the woman who is actually pregnant.

          • Farmgirlli

            Your key word here is risk….

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes. If a woman’s life is endangered from her pregnancy, continuing the pregnancy is a risk.

          • goatini

            ALL pregnancies carry enormous risk. Pregnancy is a highly risky and dangerous health condition.

          • A. T.

            Hey, you making you a decision for yourself is fine. I wouldn’t object unless you put that on other people. See the other conversation. That’s where it becomes a problem.

            Like Ms. Starr, I believe the woman in question needs to make that call.

          • goatini

            Then make sure that you never avail yourself of any modern medical care whatsoever. Doing so would make you a hypocrite who lacks sufficient belief in your “god”. After all, if it’s good enough for you to suggest that others should refuse modern medical care, it’s good enough for you to practice what you preach.

          • goatini

            More of the ludicrous “my cult is better than your cult” nonsense.

          • cjvg

            Yeah well here is another farm girl, one that hates ignorant evil people who use god and religion to justify their incessant needs to hurt and control others.
            People like you who completely and utterly ignore your own gods admonishments to not judge others and leave judgment up to your god.
            People like you who and decide that they are without sin and are thus free to throw stoners at those they and their feeble human minds deemed sinners.
            People like you who ignore your own gods commands and are the utterly incapable of loving others without judgment as jesus demanded from his followers.
            Your purported devotion to your god and your bible is but a thin veil used to cover your evil and fall from grace!

          • expect_resistance

            Woot woot cjvg! I heart you! I’m an urban farm girl in training. I wish I was located in the country but I have to work with what I have.

          • cjvg

            Every way you can make it work is a the right way. Besides who knows were you might end up, you might get your farm someday.
            I don’t have goats yet so I’m working on that

          • expect_resistance

            I’m studying permaculture and urban farming. We can have chickens in the city but no goats. So for now I’m just growing as much food as I can in my backyard. I’m a nature girl at heart but love the city too.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have a small back garden. I just planted two fig trees. I have two blueberry bushes, herbs, some runner beans on the fence. One plum tomato. Very satisfying.

          • expect_resistance

            Blueberries are next on my list if things to add to the garden. They are so yummy and so good for us.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I planted two. One is going great guns and the other is not doing so well. I do not know why. I do not use chemical fertilizer. I rely on egg shells, coffee grinds, and leaves I recover from the garden trash others throw away. A small compost pile too. They like acid soil. I am going to try a pine needle mulch as well.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I plant my own rosemary, lemon basil and tomatoes. I love the smell of tomatoes picked right off the vine.

          • expect_resistance

            Tomatoes are my reason for gardening. I highly recommend Green Zebra and Northern Lights tomatoes. Last year I grew Northern Light and they are ambrosia.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have a Roma plum. Next year I will give Northern Light a try.

          • expect_resistance

            If you can’t find Northern Lights try Gold Medal. They are similar bicolored tomatoes. Northern Lights can be difficult to find but well worth it. I love all tomatoes and wish I had the room to grow more.

            Happy gardening! :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Cherry tomatoes sauteed quickly in a little butter with dill. Oh yes.

          • goatini

            If you like Romas, try Amish Paste next year.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I will. I actually was not all that happy with the Romas I grew. I just did not know another plum tomato variety to try.

          • goatini

            I was pleasantly surprised with the Amish Paste.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Good to hear that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Mmmmm. Lemon basil.

          • goatini
          • cjvg

            Those are the most adorable little creatures, I want some!
            Is that your farm, looks like so much fun

          • expect_resistance

            I had to watch that several times and share it with the cats. Of course they were a little confused by the noisy goats. Great video thanks for posting.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m a witch. Have you ever met a witch? Do you have any understanding of other religions other that your own narrow-minded perspective?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I grew up on a chicken ranch. The word of god the Abortion Lover.
            Hosea 1:1
            The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea …
            Hosea 13:16
            Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

          • goatini

            All “religions” are cults. Those who practice the Wicca cult are called witches, by some. You have a lot of nerve thinking your cult is any better than any other cult.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Exactly!!

        • Jennifer Starr

          Don’t try to be witty. You’re not terribly good at it.

          • cjvg

            It actually requires quite a bit of intelligence to successfully display wit. Consider the “quality” and “depth” of her previous utterances, wit or even coherence might be far beyond her capacity’s

        • A. T.

          1) You’re not even clever. Troll better. 2) See 1. 3) Odds are some of us, are say Christian, like me!

          I consider myself pro-life. I also note cases were women have been allowed to die and a current lawsuit in the States (Tameka Means) where a Catholic Hospital did not inform of her what was happening, that it would keep occurring and that her non-viable and *wanted* pregnancy could kill via her current infection.

          I refuse to die from a wanted pregnancy because of someone’s idiocy. If we cannot address even that simple danger and people like you cannot and will not (and instead have the free time troll here, I know we have gone much too far.

          • Farmgirlli

            A.T. if that is your real photo you kiddo have a lot of growing up to do. I am not a Troll…I have always been pro life. The issue you bring up r/t lawsuit relates to the Catholic Church–that’s the problem…If you were to die from a wanted pregnancy that’s Gods will for you and He trumps it all… however I would never wish that on anyone.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So if a woman has a life-threatening pregnancy, you’re telling us that nothing should be done to save her because that’s ‘God’s will’? Do you have any idea how sick that sounds?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Do you never take antibiotics for an infection because the infection was “god’s will”?
            And BTW why are you even online? God didn’t create technology, man did.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am PRO life so naturally I am PRO choice.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She might be young, but she’s displayed much more maturity, wit and class than you ever will.

          • A. T.

            .. :_; I’ll try to live up to half of that. Thank you.

          • cjvg

            The issue she brings up relates to a religion that is ignorantly, cruelly and dangerously mandates ignoring best medical practices as recommended by the ACA and the ACOG in favor of religious doctrine! Just like you are advocating

          • fiona64

            …If you were to die from a wanted pregnancy that’s Gods will for you

            How “pro-life” of you.

          • expect_resistance

            The “God’s will” sounds like victim blaming. I hate that saying of “its God’s will” or “God will provide.”

          • fiona64

            Have you ever noticed that, with these ‘God’s will’ types, ‘God’s will’ always happens to coincide with that of the person who says it? For example, it’s often ‘God’s will’ that a woman remain pregnant and give up an infant for adoption to a ‘deserving infertile couple who would love to have that baby,’ but it is never ‘God’s will’ that the infertile couple remain childless.

          • A. T.

            Wow. This is why I’m not an official card carrying member of the pro-life movement. What if I have other children? A husband? A family that wants me alive over a non-viable baby? My family loves me, crazily enough.

            The Catholic Church runs many hospitals and is quite connected to the pro-life movement. So it is not so neatly divorced, especially if you read the actual article and noted CO as a option for doctors. Who work in hospitals and provide care to women, such as when they are suffering potential miscarriages or dangerous pregnancies. Which goes beyond ‘I don’t want to be an abortion provider’ and into ‘some hospitals do not have to tell you about risks to your health if you might abort’ in some cases.

            What’s my life though? ;)

          • Farmgirlli

            It’s between you and God….Go search scripture.

          • expect_resistance

            And it’s none of your business.

          • Farmgirlli

            It has nothing to do with it being my business or not…it’s completely
            irrelevant .It’s her story not mine….

          • A. T.

            The larger point was things referenced in the article and the issues around CO objection. It’s bigger than you making a choice for yourself and we need a better system, whether it includes CO or not.

          • expect_resistance

            Then why are you telling us to read scripture? I don’t need your god.

          • cjvg

            Then why are you trying to get in the middle

          • purrtriarchy

            Your RCC loves to neglect and torture babies until they die, and then throw them in the sewer:

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/06/06/irish-archdiocese-official-reacts-to-800-childrens-skeletons-in-a-sewage-tank-we-cant-judge-the-past/

            I just learned that in Ireland, Father Fintan Monaghan, a Catholic Church official in whose archdiocese the skeletal remains of almost 800 children were found in a septic tank, weighed in with an opinion on the matter.

            The bones, if you’ll recall, are those of babies who were born to
            unwed mothers, and who died under the awful neglect of Bon Secours nuns between 1925 and 1961. The child mortality rate in Irish Catholic institutions for “fallen women” was reportedly as high as fifty percent.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks for posting the link. Horrible story that shows the misogyny of the RCC.

          • Farmgirlli

            I’m not Catholic and never said I was…Sheesh….

          • expect_resistance

            You might as well be. You’re Christian right? And you said, “.just a farmgirl that hates Witches/Cults and all they represent…my form of servitude is to God and His word in the Bible”

          • goatini

            //If you were to die from a wanted pregnancy that’s Gods will for you and He trumps it all… //

            Your words are the same as the Catholic Church’s degenerate “belief” system.

          • goatini

            //If you were to die from a wanted pregnancy that’s Gods will for you and He trumps it all… //

            Or, non-theocratic healthcare workers in a non-theocratic healthcare facility could save a woman’s life. You know, instead of exercising depraved indifference, letting her die needlessly, and having the gall to call it, ahem, “pro-life”.

      • A. T.

        Look up Tameka Means. That is all.

      • expect_resistance

        I’m a pagan witch do you have a problem with that.

    • lady_black

      Nobody is suggesting any of the things in your post, so you are arguing by misquotation. No one is saying that any woman ought to be able to demand abortion from any doctor. No one is that unrealistic. Certainly a doctor can choose not to perform routine abortion services, and many do. When you have a woman presenting in the ER at 18 weeks gestation with ruptured membranes, or a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, you cannot refuse to treat her because treating her by acceptable medical standards would necessarily involve terminating the pregnancy, and your conscience wouldn’t allow you to do that. Just the same as you could not refuse to give someone a blood transfusion or use technology that collects blood and re-infuses it during surgery. That violates some people’s religion, too. But refusing to do it is unacceptable to the ethical practice of medicine. If you oppose the saving of lives in morally difficult situations, you simply lack the necessary constitution to practice medicine.

    • Suba gunawardana

      A profession you intentionally choose and train for is NOT involuntary servitude. No one puts a gun to a doctor’s head & makes them go into the area of reproductive healthcare. They CHOOSE it, knowing full well all the duties it entails. If unwilling to perform any of those duties, they should NOT choose that area. Very simple.

    • cjvg

      Irrelevant coward who does not even have the courage to make up reasons why s/he has the right to decide what medical decisions woman can make. Pathetic does not even begin to cover it

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      The topic of the article is Conscientious Objection. You do not understand what CO consists of at all. And that is made clear in every post you make about the topic.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Are all the shitweasel fetus freaks gone now?

    • fiona64

      Unfortunately, no. They’re still here pushing their fetus-porn and “moralizing.”

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Damn. So boring. They do not even troll well.

  • MaryB435

    The pro-abortion side apparently considers the baby developing in the womb to be some type of parasite. They frequently insist that it is someone else using your body without your consent. They compare pregnancy to an invasion, and say things like: “Consent to sexual activity is not consent to pregnancy.”

    Don’t they know that sex leads to babies? Does this surprise them? No, I’m sure they know that, but just WISH that it would not be that way. But actions do have results, and pretending that they don’t inevitably causes problems.

    Actions do have results. I’m certain that this logical, plain common-sense statement will evoke a firestorm of criticism, but it is not meant to “spoil anybody’s fun”, but as a bit of friendly advice.

    People of good will can have various opinions on what is the best way to address these situations. However, there are many people who do not wish to exercise good will, and just want to satisfy their desires at any cost.

    This may appear to be bad news to a lot of people, but we all need to control our desires and urges, directing our behavior to what is right. This is actually very good news; it frees us from many of the troubles that come from not controlling ourselves.

    • purrtriarchy

      Why can’t you answer my numerous questions, little girl?

      No, you can’t which is why you are currently invoking the argument of ‘s1uts love to kill their babies because they are selfish and stupid’

      Don’t they know that sex leads to babies? Does this surprise them?

      Sex can also lead to STD’s. And death. I guess no person should EVER get treatment for the STD, or an abortion if the pregnancy is killing them – since after all, according to Mary, queen of logic, you CONSENTED to the STD’s and death by having sex. Right sweetie?

      This may appear to be bad news to a lot of people, but we all need to
      control our desires and urges, directing our behavior to what is right.

      Now you have to explain what is so evil and immoral about having non-procreative sex.

      The pro-abortion side apparently considers the baby developing in the womb to be some type of parasite.

      It behaves like a parasite. It dampens the woman’s immune system (which can lead to auto-immune disorders such as multiple sclerosis), takes sugars and iron from her blood (can lead to diabetes and anemia), raises her blood pressure, takes calcium from her bones (can lead to osteoperosis), injects addictive substances into her blood (can lead to post partum depression and psychosi)s and lastly, it discards toxic biowastes into her blood.

      Here is some science, for you:

      he zygote actually overpowers the woman’s immune system in the same way a parasite does. Isn’t that interesting!?

      Here are some scientific findings:

      Further investigation revealed that placental NKB contained
      the molecule phosphocholine, which is used by the parasitic nematode
      worm to avoid attack by the immune system of the host in which it lives.
      Placenta ‘fools body’s defences’.

      During implantation, fetally derived cells (trophoblast) invade the maternal endometrium and remodel the endometrial spiral arteries into low-resistance vessels that are unable to constrict. This invasion has three consequences. First, the fetus gains direct access to its mother’s arterial blood. Therefore, a mother cannot reduce the nutrient content of blood reaching the placenta without reducing the nutrient supply to her own tissues. Second, the volume of blood reaching the placenta becomes largely independent of control by the local
      maternal vasculature. Third, the placenta is able to release hormones
      and other substances directly into the maternal circulation. Placental
      hormones, including human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human
      placental lactogen (hPL), are predicted to manipulate maternal
      physiology for fetal benefit. Genetic conflicts in human pregnancy.

      The host-parasite relationship during pregnancy is a fascinating interaction and research in this area will improve understanding of disease pathogenesis and the various consequences of the host immune response, being host-protective, parasite protective and contributing to disease pathology. Pregnancy poses an interesting problem for the immune system of the dam as she is essentially carrying a semi-allogeneic tissue graft (the foetus) without immunological
      rejection taking place.The host-parasite relationship in pregnant cattle infected with Neospora caninum.

      Another role for foetal transferrin receptors on trophoblasts could be to bind maternal transferrin at the materno-foetal interface, thus frustrating maternal immunosurveillance. This is similar to a mechahism used by schistosomes in the host-parasite relation where host proteins are bound by the parasite to escape
      immunological recognition. Trophoblast transferrin and transferrin receptors in the host–parasite relationship of human pregnancy.

      ————–

      You don’t have any science though, do you Mary? Just content free posts, telling us not to be such dirty whor3s.

      Tell us, do you get off on s1ut-shaming? Do you fell all superior when you do? i bet you do. I bet you think you’re hot shit. All pure and wonderful, wagging your finger at all the dirty dirty baybee killing s1uts.

      is that why you’re here?

      is that why you are utterly incapable of engaging in rational, adult debate and instead resort to accusing us of being selfish whor3s who kill for fun?

      • cjvg

        Perfect

        • purrtriarchy

          I showed your latest essay on sentience and comas to a friend of mine, and he has a couple of questions for you. He spends the majority of his time debating sentience, so I thought he would like to hear what you had to say. He says this:

          “”Thanks for the info and the link. I’d be happy to include it (and the
          source-link) as an update to some part of the main Refutations document, if I can get permission. One little thing nags at me, though. There is “awareness” and there is “self-awareness”, such as is involved in passing the “mirror test”. The quote talks about self-awareness and may be inaccurate or incomplete, because not even born babies can pass the mirror test for months after birth. Can you get some clarification regarding the exact sort of awareness that is being talked about? Thanks in advance!””

          His site:

          http://fightforsense.wordpress.com

          • cjvg

            A young baby does not have self awareness, however the part of the brain that houses (self) awareness is functional and does register the babies experiences that pertain to self. The baby is registering that experience, a self experience even if the baby can not yet recognize self.

            This is were this part of the essay comes in play”

            “Consciousness is private, subjective and experienced from a particular point of view: yours. This is what accounts for your point of view, for the unique “interiority” that gives the feeling that you exist inside your head somewhere. For instance;” Is your version of the color red unique to you or the same for everyone?”

            For instance even if a baby is not self aware yet it already has his/her interpretation of that color red. That interpretation is unique and specific to that baby. The baby will not have a different view of the color red by becoming self aware.

            Unless the baby has an experience tying that self awareness to the color red, At that point there is an additional emotional component that the baby now connects to that color.

            In short, certain experience are registered in the area of the brain that houses sentience and self awareness even when the brain in question has not made those connections yet.

            Similarly a coma patient shows activity in the area of the brain that houses self awareness even while in that coma. This does not mean that the patient is always (self) aware, merely that the brain cycles in and out.

            It is actually very similar to how alpha beta and gamma waves work and how they connect to the different sleep cycles

          • purrtriarchy

            Thanks! You’re the bomb!

            So bomb that I am going to gift you with this:

            http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1083/3355/original.jpg

          • cjvg

            Funny
            is that your cat making faces?

          • purrtriarchy

            Someone was mocking a fucked up word salad poster and/or chatbot on The Friendly Atheist.

            That pic is awesome. The quote is from the fruitbat.

          • cjvg

            I love the look on kitty’s face, it made be speculated why she/he was making it

          • purrtriarchy

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/06/10/creationist-if-evolution-is-true-is-rape-wrong/#comment-1430612334

            This is the poster. He is funny as all hell. A word salad master.

            You really need to improve your game cj – you make too much sense for ESL!!!!

          • cjvg

            I rarely invoked the gods but this one OMG. I need to drink (a lot) to even be able to make anything out of that. Contradiction upon contradiction and word placements that are completely inappropriate.

            What is his point anyway?, I presume it is anti-choice since there seems to be a distinct and obvious lack of education and knowledge among them. Rarely do you see the egregious ignorant claims, contradictions and blatant grammatical errors and mistakes under pro-choice posters.

            In fact I do not think I have run across one , although the law of averages dictates I should have. I dislike using my multitude of formal education and use of other languages as a stick to beat others with. My education level is really irrelevant to these debates since anyone can educated themselves, even informally if formal education is to costly.

            Education level and IQ are no guarantee of being in the right. Reason, logic and willingness to learn and accept science and reality are better indicators of the accuracy of position.

            Conversely unwillingness to better yourself, disinterest in honesty, logic, reason, science and facts and in many cases poor grammar and an inability to remain consistent and coherent, do seem to be very good indicators of someone who is championing a cruel and ignorant position

          • purrtriarchy

            One of the other posters on that thread started taking a shot of booze every time Demo said something stupid or nonsensical. Often, multiple drinks per post. Zie got very drunk very fast hahaha.

          • cjvg

            I bet the posts started making more sense the drunker they got!
            I only read (I’m sorry to say I did not comprehend it though) one and got an incredible urge to drink

          • purrtriarchy

            Education level and IQ are no guarantee of being in the right.

            Your pig is always right! (About stuff she wants)

            Yet you cruelly deny her!

            :p

          • cjvg

            Absolutely, i’m a cruel fetus murderer. We don’t care about piggy needs

          • Suba gunawardana

            Very true, education and IQ are no guarantee on being on the right, and people feel the need to bring those in usually when their argument is weak.
            I have observed this time & again on these threads. Particularly when the credentials have nothing to do with the topic, it’s quite hilarious :)

          • ignorance_is_curable

            Thanks for the clarification. I’ve been encouraged by purrtriarchy to consolidate and incorporate your posts on awareness into my main “Anti-Abortion Arguments Refuted” document, but I’m not actually seeing permission by you to do that. May I?

          • cjvg

            Absolutely, knowledge needs to be shared never selfishly hoarded

          • ignorance_is_curable

            Thank you!

          • cjvg

            No problem, thank you for fighting against ignorance, it can be exhausting and quite scary. It is good to see others having the fire.

          • purrtriarchy

            IIC is awesome. He is also unrelenting. He wore down the idiots at LAN and SPL.

          • cjvg

            I’m surprised he was not banned at the earliest opportunity (usually the first critical well reasoned and factual rebuttal made)

          • cjvg

            Thank you

          • ignorance_is_curable

            Do you know about “human chimeras”? I’m interested if there is any information about whether they have multiple-personality disorders more frequently than average folks. I THOUGHT I had once found a link indicating they weren’t more-often afflicted, but now I can’t find it again. Thanks in advance!

          • cjvg

            like the site.

    • purrtriarchy

      I suggest you read this article, it’s about YOU:

      http://hayladies.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/i-used-to-be-a-pro-life-republican/

      I had a favorite line, in high school, when debating people on the
      subject of abortion. It was “Hey, that thing in your stomach’s not gonna
      come out a toaster, right? It’s a baby!”

      And this one, this is EXACTLy what you’re thinking as you comment here. We all know it.

      Because while I said it was about the babies, it wasn’t. It was about s1ut-shaming. I absolutely loved s1ut-shaming. Because I was saving myself for marriage–well, oral sex doesn’t really count anyway, does it?–I knew that I would always be right and virtuous and I would never be a murderer like those s1uts.
      The issue couldn’t possibly be up for real debate, to my mind: either you were a baby-killer s1ut, or you behaved like a proper Christian woman and only let him get to third base. Babies were simultaneously women’s punishment for having premarital sex and beautiful gifts from Jesus Himself. That didn’t seem like a contradiction in my mind. It was just another one of God’s perfect mysteries.

      • MaryB435

        Check your blood pressure. You seem to be overly upset. Don’t pretend to be able to read other’s minds. You seem to be perceiving an insult where there is none. Remember, you were created in God’s image, and He does love you. You are valuable, and God forgives. This is not sarcasm. God really does love you. Calm down.

        • purrtriarchy

          So am I to take it that you are utterly incapable of answering my questions? So you try to deflect from this shortcoming by resorting to condescending ad hominem attacks?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Don’t pretend to be able to read other’s minds.

          I could say much the same for you when you’re treating us to these long posts/sermons about what ‘pro-abortion’ people supposedly think.

        • Suba gunawardana

          Is god against abortion? If so, why does he allow abortion to go on ? Why does god do his own abortions, in the form of trillions of miscarriages?

          • A. T.

            I would respectfully argue it’s okay to not like abortion. I’m not a huge fan. It’s more the supporting policies that make it far more likely for women to be in a position to need one and then damning them for it that is problematic. (Well, that and some of the aforementioned medical malpractice concerns.)

            If you say it’s wrong (at least in some cases) and actively worked to have birth control, sex ed and sensible policies that *lowered abortion rates*, you would have a logical position backed by science and generally supported by pro-choice advocates from what I’ve read here and elsewhere.

            I’m not saying it’d be a perfect match, but it’d be far better than what exists at present.

          • Suba gunawardana

            I am not implying people should “like” abortion. It is quite unlikely that anyone would jump up & down at the thought of having an abortion :)

            It is just a right that should be protected, for the safety & well-being of children just as much as women.

            I have absolutely nothing against contraception & sex ed. It goes without saying that they should be actively promoted. However, putting any restrictions on abortion is an opportunity to chip away at women’s rights, as has been amply demonstrated by all the anti-choice laws that keep popping up.

            If it’s a constitutional right, it cannot be considered “wrong in some situations”.

          • A. T.

            I’m waking up from a late nap, so I apologize for any sleepy wording. ;) No disrespect intended. What I was going for, however clumsily, is that I think you can find it wrong and still go ‘well, where do I go from here?’

            I note, for example, that bans do not end abortion. So if they do not end abortion and quite often produce horror stories, what is a next step that minimizes harm, protects women and so on? Which leads in to what you said, I suppose.

            I won’t go into my Texas/general rant as I think I’d be preaching to the choir.

          • Suba gunawardana

            I quite agree. All the preventive measures should be freely available, along with access to abortion.

            The problem is those who want “more people at all cost” try to restrict everything including sex ed, contraception, abortion, AND help for living children.

          • purrtriarchy

            It’s not about saving lives though. It is all about moral purity/superiority and identity politics.

            Opposing abortion and impure sexuality on moral grounds is more emotionally fulfilling than actually trying to prevent abortions and unwanted pregnancy. In-group bonds are strengthened through fighting the demonic pro choice s1uts.

            ^which is what we just witnessed over the last two days.

          • A. T.

            By and large, it’s not. There’s some exceptions, people that have their money where their mouth is. But the political side and many organizations? They are exactly what you said. Texas’ pro-life policies/laws/etc (abbreviated version of rant) didn’t improve poverty, parents ability to care for their children, unemployment or a host of other circumstances that effect real life families and children, but is called a ‘pro-life victory’. Yeah.

        • purrtriarchy

          Are you going to tell suba to check her blood pressure too? Seeing as how you are incapable of having a thoughtful, rational discussion with either of us. You just ignore our points and instead you preach to us.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think she’s determined to make a convert or two–she just can’t understand why the old tried and true talking points aren’t working with anyone here.

          • purrtriarchy

            She asks for an intellectual discussion. We give her one. With logical arguments and a smattering of science on the top.

            She refuses to debate us and ignores the science. She then preaches instead, in order to avoid answering our questions, or even trying to refute the science made.

            I hate to say it, but even myintx is better at this than Mary.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Don’t forget she also corrects OUR behavior.

          • purrtriarchy

            She is a homeschooled teen. I don’t expect her to have any debate skills. Lord knows I didn’t at that age.

            However, she is an arrogant twatwaffle, and that is unacceptable.

          • purrtriarchy

            Since I know you like a good laugh…

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/06/10/creationist-if-evolution-is-true-is-rape-wrong

            Pay special attention to commenter Demofyttus. He is idiot of the year, nee, century. So much funny in one thread.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Jesus loves you
          but I think you are a twatwaffle.

          • expect_resistance

            OMG I love it, twatwaffle. :)

        • A. T.

          Calm down seems a bit condescending.

          • purrtriarchy

            This is because she is better than us.

            She is so much better that she is incapable of responding with a well thought out and logical rebuttal

          • fiona64

            Her projection amuses me, to be honest. She’s quite obviously about to blow a gasket because no one here is buying the nonsense that she’s selling.

          • A. T.

            She’s posting and running away, which is annoying. >_< At least other trolls stayed to have it out.

        • goatini

          Passive-aggressive projection. We all know who the “overly upset” one here is – the one who came to a reproductive justice blog to intentionally and deliberately insult the defenders of reproductive justice.

        • cjvg

          No thank you, I have no interest or need for your god. You can keep him. By the way you should read genesis again, it clearly and unquestionable (it is the word of your god after all) state that there are other people not made by your god or subject to his rule!

    • expect_resistance

      Having an abortion if one doesn’t want to be pregnant is being responsible.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Didn’t you mention a long time ago that you were here for some “thoughtful conversation”?
      I have more than accommodated you, and have YET to see you rebut any of my points. Come on, is your position that weak?

      Preaching won’t help. Please provide a valid rebuttal if you can.

    • expect_resistance

      Furthermore, you don’t get to make decisions about other people’s sex lives. Women are fertile for 30 years or so and might be sexually active for many of those years. This is none of your business. You don’t get to judge or make the rules for others.

    • fiona64

      Actions do have results.

      Yep. And sometimes the result of an unwanted or unhealthy pregnancy is an abortion. If it’s not your pregnancy, it is 100 percent none of your goddamned business.

      Save your moralizing for church, Mary. You don’t get to decide what is “right” or “wrong” for anyone but yourself.

    • A. T.

      Support access to contraception and sex ed. Support Plan B. Make it as readily available as possible for women to avoid pregnancies they don’t desire and you will have less abortion *with a women’s educated consent*.

      There’s a lot of things your post didn’t cover. Some women are in abusive marriages or relationships. They might not be able say no to sex or may have to do certain things to maintain their safety.

      Some women, including married women, cannot safely have children or risk side effects in pregnancy, such as women on medications for epilepsy or carriers for genetic disorders.

      If you care about life, support prevention. Support it passionately.

    • cjvg

      Sure people who advocate CHOICE are satisfying their own desires, that is why they want everyone to have the right to make their own choices.

      However people who advocate anti-choice policies, people who desire that the only choice allowed is the one they will make FOR YOU, are not satisfying their own desires at all. Who’s desires are the anti-choice satisfying? Certainly not the woman denied her own choices, and not the people who advocate the right to chose, and not the men who respect women’s capacities to make the right choice for themselves, then who?

      Do you ever think or apply reason to what you blurt out?

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Jehovah is a PROABORT.

  • expect_resistance

    Test post – My posts are going into moderation on the other thread.

  • Jennifer Starr

    So again, I will answer your questions IF you will answer this one:

    People asked you questions long before you asked yours. Answer their questions first and prove this isn’t some kind of a cop-out.

    • MaryB435

      But where DO we get our rights?

      • purrtriarchy

        So you ignored alll of the intellectual arguments that we supplied you with yesterday.

        Why is that Mary? Why are you pretending that yesterday’s debate never happened? Cat got your tongue?

        • MaryB435

          Don’t you know where we get our rights, either?

          • purrtriarchy

            In rigorous, honest intellectual debate (which is what you requested, remember) one does not attempt to answer a question with a question.

            It is an evasive maneuver, and is frowned upon. Don’t do it, my little homeschooled teenage friend.

          • MaryB435

            So I suppose you DON’T know where our rights come from. The founders of our country knew that our rights come from the God who made us. They never believed that they pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor so that we would have a “right” to slaughter our offspring.

            Besides that, I’m glad (and a bit surprised) that you consider me a friend, and pleased that you think I’m so young.

            I’ll pray for you. Please pray for me, too.

          • purrtriarchy

            I have discussed the origin of rights and morals at great length in the past Mary. (as have most of the posters here)

            But I will not discuss it with you until you woman up and answer the previous questions. You want to debate like an adult, act like one, don’t try to evade answering by asking more questions.

          • purrtriarchy

            They never believed that they pledged their lives, their fortunes and
            their sacred honor so that we would have a “right” to slaughter our
            offspring.

            Actually, abortion was totally legal back in 1776 and the founding fathers did not consider fetuses to be persons. Sowwy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you are not only rude, but evasive as well. Apparently homeschooling fails to teach manners.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have offspring? And someone slaughtered them? Call the cops. Why are you bothering us? We would not come near you in a hazmat suit.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Once again. We do not GET rights. We HAVE rights. The base of our society is Equal Individual Rights.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You know, the funniest thing about you pushing these same tired old talking points that we’ve heard a zillion times before is that you imagine that you’re being original. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad.

          • fiona64

            The founders of our country knew that our rights come from the God who made us.

            Oh, sweetie. You are so, so, so wrong.

            First of all, the Creator as cited by secular deists is NOT the Christian god. Second, if they wanted to create a theocracy, they could have — but they didn’t. In fact, the only times religion is mentioned in the US Constitution, it is in *exclusionary* terms.

            Oh, and finally? Abortion was well-known and practiced during the time of our country’s founding. In fact, it was only illegal for a little more than 70 years all told … and then only because it was mostly done by women and male doctors didn’t like that very much. They saw it as cutting in on their profits.

          • Suba gunawardana

            You are trying to avoid/deflect all the valid questions directed at you by repeating this single question “where do we get our rights”?

            It won’t work.

            The ORIGIN of rights have nothing to do with whether any individual has the right to use the body of another person without their consent.

            Do you believe humans inherently have the right to invade/occupy/use the body of other humans?

            -If yes, you cannot object to someone using your organs without your consent (or those of your children without their consent).
            -If no, you cannot clamor against abortion.

            See how simple that is?

            Now in response to your question: Rights certainty do NOT come from god, considering god is never here to define them or enforce them. It is human society who established rights, mostly for their own benefit but they do have an ethical basis.

      • purrtriarchy

        Oh, yeah Mary. You can’t get out of answering people’s questions by asking your own. It’s pretty cheap of you to ‘answer’ questions with a question.

        I thought you wanted adult debate? Then act like an adult.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I’m just going to assume at this point that you can’t answer the questions posed to you. Because either you don’t know the answers or you don’t want to admit that you’ve been wrong about a lot of things. I’ve got your number now.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        We do not GET rights. We HAVE rights. The base of our society is Equal Individual Rights.

        • purrtriarchy

          Bigovernmentsocialconservative is great.

          I like the cut of his jib.

      • purrtriarchy

        Wikipedia gives a nice overview of what Plumster is talking about:
        http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights

      • fiona64

        “Born in 1959″ my arse …

        You’re a homeschooled teen whose mommy-teacher has seriously neglected your education in civics.

    • purrtriarchy

      Yeah, she’s definitely a homeschooled teenager…love how she thinks she can lie to us and pretend that she is a 55 year old.

      I bet she thinks that lying is ok if done for Jesus, however.

  • purrtriarchy

    More proof that post abortion syndrome is a lie invented by a quack:

    http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/vincent-rue-states-abortion-laws