Abortion as a Blessing, Grace, or Gift: Changing the Conversation on Reproductive Rights and Moral Values


Cross-posted with permission from Away Point.

Most Americans think of childbearing as a deeply personal or even sacred decision. So do most reproductive rights advocates. That is why we don’t think anybody’s boss or any institution should have a say in it. But for almost three decades, those of us who hold this view have failed to create a resonant conversation about why, sometimes, it is morally or spiritually imperative that a woman can stop a pregnancy that is underway.

My friend Patricia offers a single reason for her passionate defense of reproductive care that includes abortion: Every baby should have its toes kissed. If life is precious and helping our children to flourish is one of the most precious obligations we take on in life, then being able to stop an ill-conceived gestation is a sacred gift. Whether or not we are religious, deciding whether to keep or terminate a pregnancy is a process steeped in spiritual values: responsibility, stewardship, love, honesty, compassion, freedom, balance, discernment. But how often do we hear words like these coming from pro-choice advocates?

Our inability to talk in morally resonant terms about abortion has clouded the broader conversation about mindful childbearing. The cost in recent decades has been devastating. In developing countries, millions of real women and children have died because abortion-obsessed American Christians banned family planning conversations as a part of HIV prevention efforts. Those lost lives reveal the callous immorality of the anti-choice movement.

Back home, here in the United States, our inability to claim the moral high ground about abortion has brought us one of the most regressive culture shifts of a generation. We are, incredibly, faced with “personhood rights” for fertilized eggs, pregnancies that begin legally before we even have sex, politicians with “Rape Tourette’s,” and a stunningly antagonistic debate about contraceptive technologies that could make as many as 90 percent of unintended pregnancies along with consequent suffering and abortions simply obsolete.

The voices that are strongest on reproductive rights often falter when it comes to the cultural dialogue. At least part of this absence is because so many of the pro-choice movement’s leaders and funders are secular and civic in their orientation, awkwardly uncomfortable with the moral and spiritual dimension of the conversation, or, for that matter, even with words like moral and spiritual. From language that seems moderately wise–Who decides?–we fall back on “safe, legal and rare” (a questionable effort to please everyone) or even the legal jargon of the “right to privacy.”

The other side talks about murdering teeny, weeny babies and then mind-melds images of ultrasounds and Gerber babies with faded photos of later abortions. And we come back by talking about privacy?? Is that like the right to commit murder in the privacy of your own home or doctor’s office? Even apart from the dubious moral equivalence, let’s be real: In the age of Facebook and Twitter, is there a female under 25 in who gives a rat’s patooey about privacy, let alone thinks of it as a core value?

The right to privacy may work in court. But it is a proxy for much deeper values at play. Privacy simply carves out space for individual men and women to wrestle with those values. In the court of public opinion, it is the underlying values that carry the conversation.

Far too often those who care most about the lives of women and children and the fabric of life on this planet limit themselves to legal and policy fights. Fifty years ago, reproductive rights activists took the abortion fight to the courts and won, and they have kept that focus ever since. But the legal fight has drawn energy away from the broader conversation. And the emphasis on “privacy” has meant that even the most powerful stories that best illustrate our sacred values are too often kept quiet.

Legal codes and cultural sensibilities are never independent of each other. Abortion rights were secured legally because of a culture shift that was aided by anguished stories and statements by compassion-driven Christian theologians during the 1960s and 1970s. The brutal deaths of American women every year, at a peak of thousands in the 1930s, was, beyond question or doubt, a profound immorality that many Americans were desperate to stop. Protestant leaders across the theological spectrum took a moral stand in support of legal abortion. In contrast to the Vatican, they had long agreed that thoughtful decision making about whether to bring a child into the world serves compassion and well-being—the very heart of humanity’s shared moral core.

At this point it should be clear that the tide has turned. Opponents, having lost in court, instead took their fight to conservative churches, where they have been refining their appeals for 40 years. The last few years have seen a systematic erosion of legal rights driven by a culture shift that had been building long before. It has also seen a complete reversal of the once-stalwart moral support for reproductive rights among American Protestants, which in the 1950s was seen as a moral good by almost every denomination from the most liberal to the most conservative. Unless this shift is challenged and stopped, there is every reason to fear that abortion will once again become inaccessible for most women in the United States.

Can pro-choice advocates reclaim the moral and spiritual high ground? Yes. But to do so will require a challenge to the status quo on two fronts. Rather than ignoring the right’s moral claims, we must confront their arguments. We must also express our pro-choice position in clear, resonant, moral, and spiritual terms. In other words, in combination, we must show why ours is the more moral, more spiritual position.

This isn’t as hard as it sounds. Most “pro-life” positions aren’t really “pro-life”; they are no-choice. They are designed to protect traditional gender roles and patriarchal institutions and, specifically, institutional religion. The Catholic bishops and the Southern Baptist Convention—both leaders in the charge against reproductive rights—represent traditions in which male “headship” and control of female fertility have long been tools of competition for money and power. They use moral language to advance goals that have little to do with the well-being of women or children or the sacred web of life that sustains us all.

The arguments they make to attain these ends are powerful emotionally but not rationally. They appeal to antiquated and brittle conceptions of God. They appeal to the crumbling illusion of biblical and ecclesiastical perfection—and the crumbling authority of authority itself. They corrupt the civil rights tradition and turn religious freedom on its head. They play games with our protective instinct and cheapen what it means to be a person. They lie.

That adds up to a lot of vulnerability in what should be the stronghold of the priesthood: their claim to speak for what is good and right.

Republican strategist Karl Rove will go down in history for his strategy of attacking enemies on their perceived strength—for example, by attacking John Kerry on his war record. In the recent election, we saw this strategy in play on both sides. Obama proved to be less vulnerable than his opponents hoped on his signature legislation, the Affordable Care Act. But by the time the election was over, Romney’s strongest credential, his background in business, was seen by many as parasitic “vulture capitalism.” If we want Americans to understand and distance themselves from the moral emptiness of the “pro-life” movement, we will have to challenge the patriarchs in their home turf, in their position as moral guides.

Here, for openers, are a few ways we might change the conversation:

1. Talk about the whole moral continuum. moral continuum ranges from actions that are forbidden, to those that are allowed, to those that are obligatory. When it comes to abortion, we talk only about one-half of this continuum—Is it forbidden or is it allowed?—when, in actuality, a women faced with an ill-conceived pregnancy often experiences herself at the other end of the continuum, wrestling with a set of competing duties or obligations. What is my responsibility to my other children? To society? To my partner?To myself? (To cite a personal example, my husband and I chose an abortion under circumstances where it would have felt like a violation of our core values to do otherwise.) The current conversation doesn’t reflect the real quandaries women face, one in which moral imperatives can and do compete with other moral imperatives. Nor does it reflect the wide range of spiritual values and God concepts that enter into the decision-making process.

  • No-choice advocates say: Abortion is immoral. God hates abortion.
  • We can say: For me, bringing a child into the world under bad circumstances is immoral. It violates my moral and spiritual values. / Whose God decides?

2. Challenge the “personhood”/fetus-as-baby concept both philosophically and visually. The history of humanity’s evolving ethical consciousness has focused on the question of who counts as a person, and if the arc bends toward justice it is because it is an arc of inclusion. Non-land-owning men, slaves, women, poor workers, children—our ancestors have fought and won “personhood” rights for each of these, and abortion foes are smart to invoke this tradition. But their ploy involves a sleight of hand. The civil rights tradition is built on what a “person” can think and feel. By contrast, the anti-choice move is about DNA, and it seeks to trigger visual instincts that make us feel protective toward anything that looks remotely like a baby, even a stuffed animal. In reality, the tissue removed during most abortions is minute, a gestational sac the size of a dime or quarter, which is surprising to people who have been exposed to anti-abortion propaganda. It strikes almost no one as being the substance of “personhood.”

  • They say: Abortion is murder. Abortion kills little babies.
  • We can say: A person can think and feel. My cat can feel hungry or hurt or curious or content; an embryo cannot. / Thanks to better and better pregnancy tests, over 60 percent of abortions now occur before 9 weeks’ gestation. Want to see what they actually look like?

3. Admit that the qualities of “personhood” begin to emerge during gestation. Pregnancy is no longer the black box it was at the time of Roe v. Wade. Ultrasound and photography have made fetal development visible, and research is beginning to offer a glimpse into the developing nervous system, with the potential to answer an important question: What, if anything, is a fetus capable of experiencing at different stages of development? Although this isn’t the only question in the ethics of abortion, it is undeniably relevant. How we treat other living beings has long been guided by our knowledge of what they can experience and want. By implication, ethics change over the course of pregnancy. A fertilized egg may not be a person except by religious definitions, but by broad human agreement a healthy newborn is, and in between is a continuum of becoming. Most Americans understand this argument morally and emotionally. The Roe trimester framework also codified it legally. Ethical credibility requires that we acknowledge and address the ethical complexities at stake.

  • They say: A fetus is a baby. A baby is a living soul from the moment of conception.
  • We can say: In nature, most fertilized eggs never become babies. A fetus isbecoming a baby, grows into a baby, is a potential personor is becoming a person.

4. Pin blame for high abortion rates where it belongson those who oppose contraception—and call out the immorality of their position because it causes expense and suffering. Unintended pregnancy is the main cause of abortion. Right now half of pregnancies in the United States are unintended. For unmarried women under 30, that’s almost 70 percent. A third of those pregnancies end in abortion. The reality is that abortion is an expensive, invasive medical procedure. For the price of one abortion, we can provide a woman with the best contraceptive protection available, something that will be over 99 percent effective for up to 12 years. If every woman had information and access to state-of-the-art long-acting contraceptives, half of abortions could go away before Barack Obama gets out of office.

  • They say: Liberals are to blame for abortion. Planned Parenthood is an abortion mill.
  • We can say: Obstructing contraceptive knowledge and access causes abortion and unwanted babies. That’s what’s immoral. We have the technology to prevent almost all of the suffering and expense caused by unintended pregnancy, but many women don’t have access to that information or technology because of the twisted moral priorities of religious and cultural conservatives. Barack Obama and Planned Parenthood have done more to prevent abortions in America than all of the choice opponents combined. The no-choice position is anti-life. It kills women. It puts faith over life.

5. Acknowledge and address the powerful mixed feelings surrounding abortion. The most common emotional reaction to abortion is relief. That said, women react physically and emotionally in a variety of ways to terminating a pregnancy. Sometimes, even those who are clear that they have made the best decision feel a surprising intensity of loss. Women should be given the support they need to process whatever their experience may be. We also need to understand that some abortion opponents actively induce guilt and trauma in women who have had abortions.

  • They say: Abortion is psychologically scarring. Women end up haunted by guilt and permanently traumatized after having an abortion.
  • We can say: No one should do something that violates her own values. Violating your values is wounding; that is why each woman should be supported in following her own moral, spiritual, and life values when making decisions about pregnancy.

6. Own religious freedom. Religious freedom is for individuals, not institutions. If the women and men who work for religious institutions all perceived the will of God in the same way, their employers wouldn’t be trying to control them by controlling their benefits package. Religious institutions have always tried to override the spiritual freedom of individuals, and they use the arm of the law as a lever whenever they can, and that is what they are doing now.

  • They say: Employers shouldn’t be forced to provide contraceptive or abortion coverage.
  • We can say: The freedom to choose how your employees spend their hard-earned benefits and the freedom to choose whether to have a child are two very different things. No institution—and nobody’s boss–should have a say in one of the most personal and sacred decisions we can make: whether to have child. That is why all women, regardless of who they work for, should have access to the full range of contraceptives and reproductive care.

7. Talk about children and parenting, not just women. Responsible and loving parents do what they can to give their kids a good life. We take our kids to doctors, get them the best schooling we can afford, love them up, and pour years of our lives into helping them acquire the skills that will let them be happy, kind, generous, hard-working adults. But parenting starts before we even try to get pregnant. We consider our own education and finances and whether we have the kind of partnership or social support that would help a child to thrive. We may quit smoking or drinking to be as healthy as possible during pregnancy. More often than not, the decision to stop a given pregnancy is a part of this much bigger process of mindful, responsible parenting.

  • They say: Abortion is selfish. Women just want to have sex without consequences.
  • We can say: A loving mother makes hard decisions to bring her kids the best life possible. A responsible woman takes care of herself. A caring father wants the best life possible for his children. Wise parents know their limits.

8. Embrace abortion as a sacred gift or blessing. For years we have talked as if abortion were a lesser evil, rather than a remarkable gift. In reality, no medical procedure is pleasant and yet the option to have the treatments and surgeries we need is an unmitigated good. The term “safe, legal and rare” confuses things because it implies that what should be rare is the treatment rather than the problem, unintended pregnancy. An abortion should be exactly as safe, legal and rare as a surgery to remove swollen tonsils or an infected appendix. If we think about abortion like we think about other medical services, then the attitude is one not of shame or ambivalence but of gratitude.

  • They say: Abortion is bad. An abortion is regrettable.
  • We can say: An ill-conceived pregnancy is bad. An unintended pregnancy is regrettable. An abortion when needed is a blessing. It is a gift, a grace, a mercy, a cause for gratitude, a new lease on life. Being able to choose when and whether to bring a child into the world enables us and our children to flourish.

9. Honor doctors who provide abortion services as we honor other healers. The human body fends off most infections and cancers, but not all. It spontaneously heals most broken bones and closes many wounds but not all. Similarly, it spontaneously aborts most problem pregnancies, but not all. Nature tends to abort pregnancies where there are problems with cell division or fetal development, where there is little chance for a fetus to become a healthy, thriving person. Through medical or surgical abortion, as through every other medical procedure, doctors and healers extend the work of nature—of God, if you will—to promote health and well-being. By ending pregnancies that don’t have a good chance to turn into thriving children and adults, they are—literally or metaphorically–doing God’s work.

  • They say: Abortionists are murderers.
  • We can say: God (or Nature) aborts most fertilized eggs. Abortion doctors are compassionate healers who devote their lives to helping women and men ensure that they have strong, well-planned, wanted families. Their work is as sacred as any in the field of medicine.

10. Honor women who decide to terminate pregnancies just as we honor motherhood. Sometimes the decision to end a problem pregnancy is clear and simple. Other times not. Either way, a woman often has to fight off a sense of shame and blame that she has internalized from religious and social conservatives—too often, including other women. She may feel bad even when her own values are clear and the decision has been thoughtful. How often do we affirm and honor the wisdom of women who make difficult childbearing choices (abortion, adoption, waiting) so as to best manage their lives and their parenting?

Most women choose an abortion so that they can later choose a well-timed pregnancy; or so they can take good care of the kids they have, ensuring those kids have the best possible chance in life. Sometimes a woman ends a pregnancy because she is choosing to put her life energy elsewhere. Even then, she is accepting that to embrace life fully she must choose among the kinds of good available to her and take responsibility for avoiding harm. She may or may not put it in these terms, but those are moral and spiritual questions, the kind that religion has long sought to guide. That is why many religious traditions support a woman or couple in weighing their own deepest values when it comes to reproductive decisions.

As individual stories show, the decision to end a pregnancy may be based in humility, responsibility, nurturing, prudence, forethought, vision, aspiration, stewardship, love, courage … or some combination of these qualities. Mere tolerance fails to affirm the many strengths that go into reproductive decisions, including the decision to end a pregnancy. These are virtues worthy of honor.

  • They say: An abortion is shameful. An abortion should be kept secret. An abortion needs to be forgiven by God.
  • We can say: Choosing abortion can be wise and brave. It can be loving and generous. It can be responsible and self-sacrificing.

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To schedule an interview with contact director of communications Rachel Perrone at rachel@rhrealitycheck.org.

  • fiona64

    This article irritates the hell out of me … because it seems to me that the writer has not seen the numerous times that reproductive choice advocate (like me and many commenters here) do exactly what she is advocating — multiple times per day.

    • Shan

      But it’s good that there are other people out there saying these things because they DO need to be said. Multiple times per day. In as many places as possible.

    • Shan

      And don’t you just love seeing all the thoughtful, nuanced responses to articles like this one? :P

      • L-dan

        Precisely.

        But, frankly, the language above is aimed more at framing things for the “I’m pro choice, but…” or the “abortion bothers me, but…” crowd than the ‘murdering sluts’ troll contingent. The latter are going to keep shouting no matter what you say; unless women head back to their homes and stay there submitting to their natural place as incubators.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I feel the same way. I am already saying these things and saying them better. And I have been making these arguments and writing about new directions for a long time now.

    • http://www.awaypoint.wordpress.com Valerie Tarico

      Rebuke accepted. Institutionally, Faith Aloud is working to say some of these things, and better than I could.

      • goatini

        I just posted their “40 Days Of Prayer To Keep Abortion Safe And Legal”

      • Shan

        I sent them a direct link to your article so I hope they get it out there as much as possible. Like I said, these things need to be said many times in many places.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Never mind our complaining. You did good. Well written.

    • expect_resistance

      Thank you :) we are here living it everyday.

    • Robin Bass

      Don’t let it irritate you. Look at what the other side believes… They need to see these things in print from as many people and in as many forms as possible. Sadly we are 40 years too
      Late and weRe fighting 30 years of lies and mistruths.. So we have a lot of work to do to undo their poison.

      • fiona64

        Your point is well taken.

  • nrtoma

    It is only a blessing to those who choose to use this as conception and not if you are not being sucked apart by a surgical cannula and flushed like some much excrement.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Conception? I don’t think you have the right word there, and you need just a little more histrionics to make it more entertaining.

    • Mindy McIndy

      Yeah, because there are so many women out there who just love having abortions in lieu of chemical contraceptives. It becomes the social event of the season! *eye roll*

      • nrtoma

        50 million plus since Roe V Wade or 20% of the present population of the US. That number is astounding if you are able to conceptualize it.

        • Shan

          That has absolutely nothing to do what the article is about.

        • Mindy McIndy

          That means 50 million pregnancies ended in abortion, not that they love abortion or that they would rather have an abortion than use contraceptives. Millions of people have had kidney transplants in the past 30 years- does that mean those people love having major surgery? Accidents happen. Condoms break, all contraceptives besides getting sterilized have a failure rate, some women can’t carry a pregnancy to term for one reason or another, etc. It’s not just a bunch of tramps deciding to screw without protection and then go to the clinic afterwards. Abortions aren’t convenient or fun, but they are a necessity.

          • Encopretic

            Almost 50% of women who receive an abortion had chosen to forgo contraception ….and then got pregnant.

            Now, assuming women aren’t completely stupid, explain that.

          • Shan

            So? 50% of women who give birth didn’t intend to get pregnant, either. Are you demanding an explanation for THEIR choice?

          • fiona64

            Not even remotely true, but you know that, 5×5. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

            Quote: Fifty-one percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method in the month they got pregnant, most commonly condoms (27%) or a hormonal method (17%).[7]

            For those unfamiliar with the statistics in question, the number of women who were not using contraception includes women who were trying to conceive and whose wanted pregnancies went wrong, women who were raped, etc.

            But hey, rock on with your lies, little troll boy.

          • R0chambeau

            Your link supports his 50% claim.

            FYI.

          • fiona64

            No, actually, it doesn’t … little sock puppet.

          • R0chambeau

            49% of women who had an abortion weren’t using birth control.

            It’s clear as day.

          • fiona64

            You’re a funny little sock-puppet.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Can you tell that this sadistic piece of work has never had an intimate caring relationship with a woman in his life? It sticks out all over it. But it feel entitled to an “explanation” of human activities it has never been a party to. What hubris. What complete delusion.

          • fiona64

            Even surgical sterilization has a known failure rate. Just so you are aware.

          • goatini

            Happened to my grandmother. And along came my mother….

          • Mindy McIndy

            By sterilization I meant I full hysterectomy. No chance in hell of conceiving there!

          • ansuz

            Ectopic pregnancies are still possible after a hysterectomy. If you still have functioning ovaries, there is still the possibility of pregnancy.

          • Mindy McIndy

            That’s why I said full hysterectomy. No ovaries, no uterus, no problem.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Sadist, in addition to demanding explanation, wants a maiming for every “offending woman” as well.
            Would you want this filthy near your baby? Or your daughter?

          • Mindy McIndy

            What on earth are you talking about? I’m saying that is the only surefire way to prevent pregnancy: to have a complete hysterectomy. Not that every single woman of childbearing years should have one. My goodness, you are daft.

          • goatini

            No, I would not want your filth near my baby, my daughter, my husband, or my wife (were that my preference).

          • fiona64

            Radical hysterectomies are not performed for surgical sterilization … just so you know.

          • Mindy McIndy

            I know they’re not. I have been trying to have one for years because of my various menstrual issues and the history of uterine cancer in my family even in the family members who have no children, and I have fought tooth and nail to even have that option on the table. I was just saying that, aside from abstinence, a full hysterectomy is the only way to prevent pregnancy.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for clarifying … I swear, I wasn’t trying to be snarky. It’s just that there are truly people out there (usually not on our side of the fence) who think that radical hysterectomies are handed out like candy for sterilization. The truth is that obtaining a tubal isn’t that easy and, as you’ve related … they don’t do hysterectomies very often either. I know only two women in my circle who’ve had them; one for uterine cancer (she was 22) and the other because her endometriosis was so bad (at age 49).

          • Mindy McIndy

            I know enough of you on here to know you’re not being snarky. It full hysterectomies were easy to get, I wouldn’t be fighting so hard to get one. Even with my family history, they are very wary of doing one on me because I am only 27, despite the fact that I have horrible menstrual issues, a bad family history of women with uterine cancer and prolapsed uteruses (including in my aunt, who is a nun) and despite the fact that even if I did want to get pregnant, carrying a pregnancy to term will maim if not kill me. It’s been a really, really long ride to try to find someone to do it for me. I started my period when I was ten, and had two full periods a month from when I started. I am anemic as it is, so imagine how much worse it is when you are bleeding 14 days out of any given month. I’ve been on depo provera since I was 16 to wipe out the periods, but you’re not supposed to be on that stuff for that long. Other hormonal methods do nothing to curtail the bleeding, and a hysterectomy truly is my last option here. I also have a tipped uterus, endometriosis and ovarian cysts. I have another consult coming up at the end of the month to discuss the hysterectomy, so hopefully it will work out in my favour this time.

          • ansuz

            I wish you the best of luck on that.

        • Jennifer Starr

          And you assume that all these women had abortions just for funsies? You do understand that contraception does fail, correct? Not to mention fatal fetal anomalies, health issues and wanted pregnancies gone terribly wrong.

        • goatini

          50 million women exercised power over their destinies. Obviously that bothers you. Good.

        • Ivy Mike

          I can easily conceptualize it. It’s a minor fraction of the human population, which is still growing despite it.

          Now, can YOU conceptualize what your taxes, living conditions, environmental conditions, economy, and wages might be like if all those fetuses and zygotes had been born…to the women who DID NOT WANT THEM???

          Whether or not you wish to believe it, those women did you a huge favor.

          • Turd Sandwich

            Imagine what your life might be like if your mother thought your life wasn’t more important than being inconvenience by childbirth.

          • Ivy Mike

            There is nothing to imagine…I wouldn’t have existed. The world would have spun on just fine. It’s you people that think you are something special and indispensable to the planet. Guess what? we’re all replaceable.

            Oh, and even though I am a man, I’ve watched all three of my children’s births. For my wife, the experience was a great DEAL more than “inconvenient”. Using that terminology and presenting that attitude marks you as a complete douchebag.

          • Turd Sandwich

            Super duper opinion bro. Tell you what, let’s say one of your kids is murdered and then you can tell us how “the world would have spun on just fine” or “we’re all replaceable.”

            Eat a bag of dicks.

          • Ivy Mike

            No thanks. You sound as if a bag of dicks would make your day.

            Grow up, kid. You’ve made absolutely no salient points or produced anything like an argument.

          • goatini

            Some men will never get over the fact that women can now control their own destinies.

          • Shan

            Don’t forget that there are also some women who buy into that by parking themselves into the “good girl” category. Of course, in order to be able do that, they have to be able to pin the label of “bad girl” on “certain types” of other women in order to differentiate themselves.

          • lady_black

            Good girls go to heaven. Bad girls go everywhere. ;)

          • expect_resistance

            Motto of my life.

          • red_zone

            ‘Bad girls’ get remembered.

          • Lauren Mercedes Schmidt

            Good point! We must always have a bad guy it seems.

          • Mindy McIndy

            If I wasn’t born, I wouldn’t live a life of pain, chronic illness, and discrimination for being a lesbian. Sounds like a win win for me.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            I live in pain, chronic illness and discrimination for being a pro-life Catholic and I have a disabled daughter you all want dead. Life is a blessing.

          • Mindy McIndy

            You’re wrong. I don’t want anybody dead. I don’t want your daughter dead. I am saying that I wish my mother had an abortion when she was pregnant with me, and I support a woman’s right to choose for whatever reason. Stop putting words in my mouth.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            I am so sorry you feel that way, I really want all the commenters here to know the joy of the Lord. He loves you as you are, all you have to do is ask Him to come into your heart, and He will heal you of all your pain. I will pray for you Mindy, beloved of God.

          • ansuz

            Some people find that kind of comment extremely insulting (I know I do — I also find it a bit creepy).
            Just FYI.

          • Shan

            Yeah. Ew.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Pfft this supposed god is a heartless bastard
            He sends you lot to fight womens rights to safe legal healthcare
            Oh totes loving and all that jazz

          • Lieutenant Nun

            I don’t want joy from your genocidal, slavery loving, baby killing god.

          • gratiaplena

            And you probably won’t get it.

          • Mindy McIndy

            That’s the god of the bible, dear.

          • Mindy McIndy

            Shoot, I posted to the wrong person! Sorry!

          • Mindy McIndy

            Thanks for the prayers, but they fall on deaf ears. Your god doesn’t work for me.

          • Mindy McIndy

            If your god could heal me of all of my pain, I wouldn’t have a genetic disorder. I wouldn’t throw up every day of my life due to my stomach being paralyzed. I wouldn’t be consistently harassed and denigrated for being a lesbian. My joints wouldn’t be deteriorating from Ehlers Danlos. You, my dear, are full it.

          • red_zone

            You want people to live the way YOU want them to, in spite of their own wishes.

            People are allowed their own beliefs. You are arrogant to pretend you are anything above human.

          • Shan

            ” I have a disabled daughter you all want dead.”

            Wow, that’s a really sick projection.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one here wants your daughter dead. I don’t know why you would even think a thing like that.

          • goatini

            Radical fundamentalist theocrats always screech the loudest about “discrimination” when they can’t try to enforce illegal discrimination on others.

          • red_zone

            Who is calling for your daughter to be dead?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Imagine if your mother had said “Not tonight, dear–I have a headache.” Same result, pretty much. You still wouldn’t be here–or maybe someone else would be here, maybe someone conceived on a different night? There was actually a time when I thought that ‘What if your mother had aborted you?’ was a fantastic ‘pro-life’ argument. Then I graduated from high school and grew up.

          • Turd Sandwich

            Not same result. One involves getting an abortion – the willful taking of human existence. One does not.

          • Shan

            Well, yeah. I’m pretty sure not very many abortions happen by accident.

          • lady_black

            No, it’s pretty much the same thing. My mother had an abortion, and later had a sibling that wouldn’t be here if she hadn’t had the abortion. Mostly because SHE wouldn’t have been there. She willfully wanted to live. Cry me a river, turd. And in response to your other post in moderation, my mother would have slapped you for calling pregnancy and childbirth “an inconvenience.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            How does one take an existence? Is it anything like taking a shyte?

          • L-dan

            hmm..then I’d never have actually existed and never have felt anything about the fact. Oddly, this doesn’t cause me the existential distress you seem to think it should.

            Should I fret about the fact that I won’t be aware of things after I’m dead too? Or perhaps work myself into a lather contemplating the possible troubles of my alternate selves in possible alternate universes that I’m also unaware of right now? I was probably aborted in some of those…oh the angst.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If Donovan had never written his song and there had never been a Love Story movie, I might have been named…. Emily *gasp* :)

          • R0chambeau

            Hey, aren’t you the person who admitted to not knowing how to use birth control pills properly and then had an abortion as a result?

            Yep, that was you.

          • L-dan

            LOL It’s been killing you not to trot that out every time I reply to your sock puppets, hasn’t it?

            Ah well, isn’t it great abortion is legal so someone as apparently irresponsible as myself isn’t raising children?

          • L-dan

            LOL, I bet it’s been eating you alive not to use your favorite little ‘gotcha’ on all these sock puppets, hasn’t it?

            Same old lines. Same old troll.

            But hey, aren’t you glad abortion is legal and someone as apparently irresponsible as me isn’t raising children!?

          • Ella Warnock

            And the problem with having an abortion is . . .?

          • Shan

            One thing people like nrtoma have terrible difficulty conceptualizing is that the vast majority of women who had abortions either already had children or went on to have children they wouldn’t otherwise have had. There is no “missing” percentage of the present population. All those women had exactly the number of children they WANTED to have.

            Astounding, right?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, 66% of women who have abortions already have at least one child.

          • http://www.awaypoint.wordpress.com Valerie Tarico

            I think we should talk more about all of the people who exist in the world only because their mothers had abortions. The no-choice folks talk about the people that were never born, but that is only half of the equation.
            Even when feminists talk about sex-selective abortion, for example, they tend to talk about the “missing girls” rather than all of the “extra boys” that were born when those parents aborted a female fetus so they could try again. More broadly, though, we tend to simply ignore the fact that many women who have abortions then go on to have chosen children that they would not otherwise have brought into the world. To wish for no abortion is to wish that a whole lot of people–real live children and adults– didn’t exist.

          • Shan

            “To wish for no abortion is to wish that a whole lot of people–real live children and adults– didn’t exist.”

            This is true in my experience of all the women I know who have had abortions. All of them either already had all the children they intended to have or have gone on to have a child or children they wouldn’t otherwise have had if they’d not had an abortion earlier. I know one woman who not only went on to have two very much wanted and loved children with a husband she wouldn’t have even MET, but donated her own eggs. That’s a bit “above and beyond” as far as I’m concerned but, hey, it was her choice.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Take a rest, that much convoluted logic must really be exhausting to create. I prefer to think in straight lines. Kill a baby. lose a life.

          • Shan

            “I prefer to think in straight lines. Kill a baby. lose a life.”

            That’s not a line, it’s one random point on a graph.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Only life isn’t lived in straight lines, and nothing is ever as simple or black and white as it might seem.

          • goatini

            But since no one here has ever “kill(ed) a baby”, you just sound like the unbalanced loon that you are.

          • Mindy McIndy

            If you know of people killing babies, it is your civic duty to call the police.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There were some people on the American Life League page who were mourning the people who were never conceived because of the pill. These people have rather active fantasy lives.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            There are no up sides to killing the innocent. If you have to look at human lives as money, think about our Social Security system about to collapse as the formerly 3 workers to 1 retiree ration is now 1 on 1.

          • Shan

            You might as well blame that on birth control. Women will do what it takes to have only as many children as they want to over their lifetimes.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, my non-baby having self contributed to that. Guess I should have been forced to have them whether I wanted to or not, just to make other people happy and more comfortable. And they call *me* the narcissist.

          • Shan

            Yes, how selfish of you to EVER have refused to have sex with ANY man! Think of all the babies you didn’t conceive because a bowl of ice cream sounded like a better way to spend 10 minutes.

          • Ella Warnock

            To be fair, I didn’t conceive because I had a tubal and the hubster had a vasectomy. Again, though, canceling fertility = selfishness. If only I had been more concerned about everyone else’s Social Security, why, I could have bred a football team. You know, just to make sure everyone else could be happy and content that I was living my life the way they wanted me to. <>

        • lady_black

          Astounding? No. Far fewer than the number of births.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Abortion rate is low and dropping. 6 out of every 10 unexpected pregnancies are carried to term. We have no good reason to compel birth.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Unless you believe in human rights. Human rights interfered with the once presumed right to own slaves, caused a civil war, and messed up millions of lives. Sometimes standing up for the rights of others gets you into a lot of trouble.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I believe in this below. A fetus has no human rights as it is not a human being until it survives birth.

            Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

            An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another. – Judaism 101

            Sh’ma Yis’ra’eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
            Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
            Barukh sheim k’vod malkhuto l’olam va’ed.
            Blessed be the Name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever.
            V’ahav’ta eit Adonai Elohekha b’khol l’vav’kha uv’khol naf’sh’kha uv’khol m’odekha.
            And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
            might.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What a stupid analogy. Were the slaves connected to the slave owner and sucking blood from him?

          • goatini

            The fapping fetus fetishist who wants to forcibly strip female US citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights, attempting to use “human rights” to defend its sociopathy – sick.

          • JamieHaman

            Too bad you don’t feel that way about women. Women are human beings too. With lives, hopes, dreams, children, parents, siblings. Women count.

        • fiona64

          And your point is what, exactly? That all of those doomed and/or unwanted pregnancies should have been gestated anyway to satisfy you?

    • Ivy Mike

      Most early abortions can safely be performed nowadays with medication. No hyperbolically-described surgical tools needed. Of course, your ilk wish to ban these medications as well, right? As well as contraception?

      Save the hysterics and foolish propaganda. It’s both outdated and boring.

      • nrtoma

        No I don’t wish to ban these things only make them not necessary. I know this concept is foreign to you people as it would require personal responsibility, work, planning, sacrifice, waiting ect.

        • Mindy McIndy

          Because all abortions happen due to sluts that refuse to use protection and would rather just have an expensive medical procedure afterwards that can cause pain and causes them to bleed for a couple weeks afterwards. Gotcha.

        • Shan

          Again, nothing to do with the article. Also, insulting.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Also flagged. I am starting to enjoy this flagging ability.

          • R0chambeau

            “I flag stuff because I don’t agree with it”

          • goatini

            Not your sandbox, not your playground. This is a website advocating for reproductive justice and full equality for female US citizens. Vicious misogynistic dreck is not wanted here.

          • R0chambeau

            This is a website that advocates destroying human life.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, there are any number of diaper-sniffing websites, so go join in on the circle jerk. Now, just why shouldn’t you actually be enjoying your time online?

          • Lieutenant Nun

            And bathing in the blood. Because we worship at the feet of Moloch.

            Right?

          • Ella Warnock

            Damn, I forgot to pick up human blood for tonight’s bath.

          • ansuz

            I worship my ancestress, Elizabeth Báthory, and welcome our future robot overlords who will end all human life on earth.

            EDIT: Does I need to find a sarcasm font for this?

          • Shan

            No, I think “robot overlords” did the trick quite nicely.

          • Shan

            If you truly believe that, your only purpose for coming here is to troll.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Ever since women have been having pregnancies, women have been finding methods to prevent and/or end those pregnancies. It’s been going on for centuries. Effective contraception helps to prevent unwanted pregnancy but it’s never going to be ‘not necessary’.

        • Ivy Mike

          Wow, so can we therefore assume that it is only you and your ilk who work hard (chuckle)? Who engage in personal responsibility(cough Newt cough)? Who plan for the future carefully(cough Shrub Iraq cough)? Who sacrifice for that future(cough Wall Street choke)? Who wait to have sex (cough every red state has more abortions and divorce than blue cough choke puke)?

          Screw your false, hypocritical self-righteous bullshit. You’re just as animalistic as the rest of us, you just pretend you’re not because of your professed beliefs (which are easily discarded when no one is looking, if the behavior of a huge number of church leaders is any indication).

          • nrtoma

            I am nothing like you mikey, I have a functional moral compass and don’t not have to resort to threatening rhetoric to get my point across. Your obvious lack of life experience is betrayed by your not so subtle inability to not take things personally. This usual comes from a innate low self opinion and fear based psyche. . Undoubtedly your next response will contain the usual I’ll kick you butt or some other gutter references.

          • Shan

            What do you expect when you stomp in and start insulting everyone?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, get over yourself. No one has threatened you. And no one is going to ‘kick your butt’.

          • R0chambeau

            heilmary might. She’s rather unstable. I can’t wait until she shows up.

          • Ivy Mike

            I find these people fascinating. Like the assumption that because I am pro-choice, I therefore have “no moral compass” and cannot possibly be as good a person as our fanatical, arrogant, self-righteous visitor is. Then, there’s the follow-on stereotype that I’m going to get personally offended (LOL!) by their “goodness” and begin threatening violence.

            They pidgeonhole people using one or two posts and a stance. Exactly like the talk-radio hosts they feen over. It’s actually funny.

            The fact that they see themselves as “perceptive”, and able to psychoanalyze someone they’ve never met, when they are simply stereotyping like the bigots they are, is amazing to watch.

          • lady_black

            I have one over on liveaction who insists she knows me. Says I used to teach a dance class in 1984. I don’t teach dance, never taught dance and don’t even know how to dance (at least in any way that someone would needs lessons for). The chutzpah demonstrated by these nuts borders on the psychotic, and that’s no exaggeration.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That is just bizarre–wow.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Tell me about it. I once told a woman who was talking about abortion regret that while I understood and sympathized, women still needed the freedom to make their own individual choices. She then replied back to ask me why I was ‘so full of rage’, when I hadn’t said anything angry or insulting to her at all. That confused me.

          • lady_black

            Oh I get accused of that all the time by the pro-liar wing nuts, when the reality is that I’m laughing at them. One asked me since I’m an atheist, why I’m “so enraged” at “god” and those who follow him. My answer was that a better question would have been to ask herself why I would be “enraged” at something I consider to be imaginary, and then not ask such a dumb question.

          • Tara

            On the contrary. I believe people who support abortion are typically moral people who really do believe they are helping. I just think their conclusions are wrong.

            Clearly even asking the question of morality points to your awareness of it and your concern for your fellow human beings.

          • goatini

            Concern troll is concerned.

          • lady_black

            Yeah. He didn’t raise the issue troll.

          • Tara

            Sure he did. Read his comment.

          • lady_black

            You read the comment he was replying to shyte4brains.

          • R0chambeau

            flagged

          • cjvg

            So why is your moral compass superior to those who are pro-choice?
            For that matter why is your self concluded superior morality not able to use the correct term of pro-choice?

            No one is pro abortion, but it just sounds so much better then accusing people to have a faulty moral compass for SUPPORTING the RIGHTS of others to make their OWN CHOICES!

            It is very apparent that your self diagnosed “superior morality” has a problem with honest debate. This fact alone makes your claim of having a superior moral compass (for opposing the rights of others to make their own very far reaching private choices) extremely questionable!

          • fiona64

            Here’s what you don’t seem to get: I don’t get to make decisions about “morality” for other people. You think that you have the right to do so. If you think abortions are immoral, please feel free to gestate every pregnancy, wanted or not, that occurs in your body. My wanted pregnancy almost killed me, madame. If my tubal ligation fails, you may rest assured that there will be an abortion so fast that your “moralizing” head will spin right off. I will NOT go through that again. Period.

          • JamieHaman

            What actual solutions do you offer? What do you propose that will allow less abortions to be preformed?

          • Tara

            To teach children that every human being is valuable and worthy of our care and compassion. To prevent coercion. To address poverty, ignorance and in many cases the view that women are just here for men’s sexual gratification. That sex leads to babies and duties/responsibilities. Volumes could be filled.

          • JamieHaman

            Platitudes. They mean very little. A concrete list of what should be done would be much more helpful.

          • Ivy Mike

            Hmm. I used nothing like “threatening rhetoric” in my post. I simply derided and bashed your self-righteous, hypocritical arrogance. I guess that “threatens” you.

            As for life experience, well, I’m 46, married 15 years with three kids, retired from 20 years in the Navy, and have travelled the world in that job. I’ve got a degree from an excellent university, and long experience working at hard labor and in intellectual capacities.

            I feel no need to be an Internet Tough Guy and threaten to “kick your butt”, as you put it. Nonsense anyway, as even if I wished to, you are but an anonymous person on the ‘net.

            I see that amateur psychoanalysis is yet another area you think you are great at, while being completely wrong.

          • fiona64

            Threatening rhetoric? Sorry … I read the post, and there is no such thing.

            You may think you have a “functioning moral compass,” but you haven’t hesitated to slut-shame any post-abortive woman with your remarks … and that makes you a misogynist. Pro-tip: misogyny is NOT moral.

          • goatini

            Anyone who threatens, opposes, and wishes to erase, the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens most emphatically does not have a “functioning moral compass”.

          • Lauren Mercedes Schmidt

            Bravo!

          • L-dan

            And it’s this attitude that allows them to come in and get abortions when *they* need them. Because *they* are responsible, hard-working, and moral, so *their* slips, mistakes, and accidents should be tidied up expediently.

            Those *other* lazy trulls should suffer for their mistakes. Of course.

            Likewise, they can come in an call us lazy, irresponsible, lacking in morals, etc. But think that any labels tossed at them are ‘threatening rhetoric’. My eyes are rolling so hard.

        • goatini

          Exercising one’s civil, human and Constitutional rights to make one’s own private medical decision to obtain a safe, legal pregnancy termination IS personal responsibility.

          Which, safe, legal procedure will always be legal and will never be “not necessary”.

          Go troll somewhere else.

          • R0chambeau

            “But mooooommmmm…..the bad people are saying things I don’t want to hear”

          • fiona64

            Is that what you said to your mother when she brought your Lunchables down to the basement?

          • goatini

            There are plenty of cesspools of vile, lying forced-birth misogyny to wallow in. This isn’t one of them. Go troll somewhere else.

          • Tara

            My dear friend, as you know, it is currently legal but is by is by no means a “right”. A right is something that arises from nature and is acknowledged by the state. You require food and water therefore you have a right to it and no one can purposely deprive you of food and water. You take up space (you have height width and depth) and therefore you have a right to property which is your own because you require a place to exist, and so on. But without the right to live, to life itself, you can not have any other rights. If you do not exist at all then you have no rights to begin with… So the classical arguments go.

            In the mean time I will leverage the same legal mechanisms that our citizens used in the past when they did not have the same evidence about human life and its beginnings that we have now. I will do this to encourage the government to recognize the rights of the preborn.

          • Shan

            You keep posting this. It’s starting to be spam-like. You were kind of interesting before, but not so much now

          • goatini

            Anyone who desires to erase the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to safe, legal pregnancy termination without obstruction or interference is not any “friend” of mine.

            Anyone who wants to endow MORE rights to a diploid cell, of which over 50% are unceremoniously flushed down the toilet as bodily waste, than to living, breathing female US citizens, is not any “friend” of mine. You consider living, breathing female US citizens to have less rights and less value than waste that gets flushed down the toilet. You are amoral and depraved.

            And there is no such thing as a “preborn”, so stop making up nonsense words for your vicious misogyny. You are not “predead”.

          • R0chambeau

            I support you Tara..

            The women on this blog don’t support you because they are infertile or callous or I can’t tell.

          • ansuz

            What the fuck.
            1. We’re not all women. I’m not a woman.
            2. No, seriously, what the hell? What does infertility have to do with anything? Why do you care about the medical status of people here?

          • Shan

            The infertility dig is basically an ad feminam attack launched from the presumption that women are worthless unless they’re fertile.

          • ansuz

            It is very weird.

          • fiona64

            My “dear friend,” rights are afforded to born persons. You may wish to use your ability to read and examine the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution if you are not clear.

          • JamieHaman

            Making decisions about one’s own body is a right. Making decisions about other peoples’ bodies is interference.

        • fiona64

          Sometimes, the responsible thing to do *is* to terminate a pregnancy. Given that I cannot know a stranger’s situation, I lack the hubris to opine on her “responsibility.”

          And it’s only a sacrifice if done voluntarily, sweetie, not if it’s forced on you.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Fetus porn. And the kind of whackjob who brings the fetus porn for contemplation here with it. Lucky us.

    • http://www.awaypoint.wordpress.com Valerie Tarico

      There is the slight of hand — in the use of the word “you.” In this sentence personhood is not proposed or discussed, it is assumed.

  • Ivy Mike

    Hoo-boy…this one’s gonna stir up the hornets.

    • Shan

      And they won’t have read the article, either.

      • fiona64

        They obviously didn’t, LOL … typical LieSiteNews trolls. They see the headline and come over here to freak out.

        • LeticiaVelasquez

          We read the article and come over here to share the facts. Women deserve better than abortion.

          • ansuz

            Then get on developing artificial wombs.

          • goatini

            Ixnay on the artificial wombs. I wouldn’t give one iota of my DNA to these vicious fetus fetishists.

          • Shan

            Great. Bumper sticker sentiments are so helpful.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Women deserve to be happy. None of you on this comment thread seem happy, just cynical and bitter. Abortion causes a soul wound which can only be healed by the forgiveness of Almighty God. Call upon His mercy and you will feel the peace you are longing for.

          • ansuz

            Prove that souls exist.

            (Also, condescending much? The happiness of the commenters here — not all of whom are women — is none of your business.)

          • Shan

            Ew. What do you call concern trolling plus proselytizing?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, I’m a very happy person…

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, you see, I haven’t had an abortion. So there must be some other reason why I am, on balance, a quite content atheist. Guess it must have something to do with making my own decisions about how my life is organized, rather than just lazily allowing biology to be my destiny.

          • goatini

            Women deserve to have their civil, human and Constitutional rights protected from attack by un-American theocratic misogynists.

          • red_zone

            Their happiness is not entirely dependent on whether or not to have children. That is a choice only they can make for themselves. Demanding or expecting any woman to give birth because YOU don’t like abortion is self-serving to you and you alone and in no way benefits her.

            You are arrogant to think that God would want you, or anyone else, to deny a woman her own free will in regards to what happens to ,her body.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Its amazing how many anti choices can’t respect the subjective experiences of others. I was debating one on patheos today who insisted that carrying a rape pregnancy to term would not be painful because it would not bother her. And then she told me to stop trying to speak for all women because I had the gall to suggest that perhaps we should let people make their own choices about how their bodies are used !

          • Mindy McIndy

            I know plenty of women who have had abortions and not only do they not have wounded souls, they live very happy and productive lives.

          • Ineedacoffee

            No we deserve the right to choose what happens to our own body.
            If that includes, abortion so be it
            We dont deserve forced birth and pregnancy because some anti choicers think abortion is evil

          • R0chambeau

            “forced birth”

            Were you raped?

          • Ineedacoffee

            Not that its any of your concern I was, thankfully no pregnancy resulted
            I really shouldnt need to explain such a simple term

            Forced birth is what occurs when abortion becomes illegal or completely out of reach for everyday women.
            They are being forced to stay pregnant and birth or find an alternative be it damaging to them or illegal
            All have horrible domino effects which could have been avoided with an abortion

          • R0chambeau

            Lieing about rape isn’t cool. Even if it is on the internet and your coworkers don’t know about it.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Booooring.

            You really are a shit troll. No creativity whatsoever.

            Are you still raping sheep and shoving bananas up your rectum sweetie? <—your style of trolling. Not funny. Not entertaining. And, frankly, embarrassing. Never go " full retard" cupcake. You just look like a dipshit.( probably because you are)

          • R0chambeau

            I know I’m a troll.

            Are you?

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Troll better or stfu.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Oh wow some d*ckwad on the internet thinks im lying about my rape
            That cuts sooo very deep to the core <—- insert sarcasm font

            I miss the days when trolls were creative, they were much more fun

          • fiona64

            Too bad you don’t have any facts to share …

          • goatini

            Actually, women with unwanted pregnancies deserve the best and highest quality of safe, legal pregnancy terminations.

  • 441019

    “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20, New International Version.
    All three of my children were unplanned pregnancies; does that mean I should have aborted them? The choice whether to have a baby should be before pregnancy. What I mean is that when pregnancy begins, choice should end. My parents had nine children, and could not really afford any–but they still managed to raise us. I met a young woman once, when I was in a hospital, who was having an abortion. She told me it was because she already had one child, and she didn’t want a second child. She also had a supportive husband. So there was no necessity for her to have an abortion–it was just her preference. In India, women often have sex-selective abortions. If the fetus is female, they get an abortion. Is it the poor who get abortions in that country? No–it is the wealthy, who can afford an ultrasound and can afford an abortion–not the poor.

    Calling abortion a blessing is pretending that evil is good. If life is precious, we should not destroy it.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Thank you, dear merciful God, for forty years and counting of same and legal medical abortion and contraception. Praise your Holy Name.

    • Jennifer Starr

      All three of my children were unplanned pregnancies; does that mean I should have aborted them?

      No, not if you didn’t want to. That was your decision and you sounds like you’re happy with it. Please allow other women the same choice.

    • lady_black

      One of mine was unplanned. And at the worst possible time, when I had just been accepted to nursing school. I ended up just waiting until the next year. No, “unplanned” doesn’t necessarily mean abortion. Nor does it necessarily mean birth. That’s a decision only an individual can make, in consideration of her responsibilities to herself and any others who might also be depending on her. The one thing I’m sure of is that giving birth should always be a voluntary activity. It was drilled into me from the time I was young. My very wise mother (may she rest in peace) often said that women who don’t want children should do the world a favor and not have any.

    • Dez

      Keep your fantasy nonsense to yourself. What part of freedom of/from religion to you Christians not understand? I don’t believe in your fairy tales or your imaginary friend. Leave us alone!!

    • fiona64

      You CHOSE to have three children. And yes, having children is a choice.
      You do not get to decide for anyone but yourself.

    • goatini

      The civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to control their own destinies are good, light, and sweet.

      Those who attempt to obstruct and erase the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to control their own destinies are evil, dark, and bitter.

    • red_zone

      Who are you to claim it ‘wasn’t necessary’ for her to get an abortion? Who are you to dictate that when you didn’t KNOW her OR her husband, their lives or circumstances?

  • Tara

    This article underscores just how much pro choice advocates do not understand the pro life arguments and message. You are showing people how to tear down your self constructed straw man arguments and are completely avoiding the serious and grounded arguments. This article shows exactly why the pro choice side is becoming untenible and incomprehensible.

    Just -one- example from an article rife with errors: it is not that we think a baby is a fetus, that the term is interchangeable, as that would be confusing technical medical terms. Fetus is the correct term to use for a human being in the womb just as baby is the correct term for one outside the womb. The argument is thus; P1: Human procreation can produce only humans, not cats trees or bananas. P2: All humans are persons (person answers the question who). C1: The consequence of human generation (reproduction) is thus human and a person.

    • Jennifer Starr

      C2: And?

      • Tara

        C2: The author of this particular article fails to address anything substantial.

        • Jennifer Starr

          And you did?

          • Tara

            Yes. What you may ask?

            That if you choose to take this woman’s advice and couch your answers like this you’re bound to get chuckles because they’re nonsensical and irrelevant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            P1: Human procreation can produce only humans, not cats trees or bananas. P2: All humans are persons (person answers the question who). C1: The consequence of human generation (reproduction) is thus human and a person.

            And still inside a woman’s body, still directly affecting her life and health and still her decision to make. Unless you are capable of being pregnant for someone else, you don’t get to make their personal health decisions for them. Sorry.

          • Tara

            Does location somehow make a human being less valuable? What are your thoughts?

          • Jennifer Starr

            A uterus is a hell of lot more than just a ‘location’–it’s not in the next room over or the restaurant down the street. As a part-time nanny, I’ve watched many a child. I’ve yet to babysit a woman’s uterus with fetus inside because she dropped it off for the day By calling it a mere location you’ve basically reduced the woman to a container, which is quite insulting.

          • Tara

            The location of the fetus, which is a human being, is inside the uterus. The uterus is an organ of the female member of the human species which purpose is to shelter and provide nutrients a living, growing human organism. Surely you aren’t disputing this very basic biological and scientific fact?

          • Shan

            “Surely you aren’t disputing this very basic biological and scientific fact?”

            No, just asserting that the woman whose uterus it is has the right to decide what’s going to happen inside it, and that right doesn’t end with the act of sex whether she chose to engage in it or not.

          • Tara

            Anything freely asserted can be freely dismissed.

            Not to be coy, but I would need good reasons to think that you can end a human life because of its location or dependence on another person for shelter and sustenence. I’m more than willing to listen if the arguments are sound.

          • Shan

            Not to be coy, but how about giving good reasons for compelling all human women to create more humans because of their location and dependence on another person for shelter and sustenance?

          • Tara

            I do not see where women are being compelled. I do not think that we derive our value based on what other people think of us. Someone’s “wantedness” should not be a factor in whether they should be allowed to continue to exist.

          • Shan

            “I do not see where women are being compelled.”

            If you’re talking about all “direct” abortions being outlawed, then isn’t that what you’re advocating?

          • lady_black

            “Wantedness” is damn well a factor when it comes to the use of my body. Which is to say, if I don’t want to allow it’s use, I won’t allow it. Got it? I owe NOBODY the use of my body. It belongs to me. If I decide to donate the use of my uterus, or a unit of my blood or a piece of my liver to save your life, that’s my decision. I don’t owe you jack shit.

          • Shan

            “Someone’s “wantedness” should not be a factor in whether they should be allowed to continue to exist.”

            Then it also shouldn’t matter whether YOU want them or the state wants an embryo or fetus to continue to exist.

          • goatini

            You’re a man and you’ll never be pregnant, what do you care?

          • goatini

            Female US citizens have the identical rights to privacy and personal bodily autonomy as male citizens. Get lost.

          • Tara

            It is currently legal but is by is by no means a “right”. A right is something that arises from nature and is acknowledged by the state. You require food and water therefore you have a right to it and no one cancan purposely deprive you of food and water. You take up space (you have height width and depth) and therefore you have a right to property which is your own because you require a place to exist, and so on. But without the right to live, to life itself, you can not have any other rights. If you do not exist at all then you have no rights to begin with… So the classical arguments go.

            In the mean time I will leverage the same legal mechanisms that our citizens used in the past when they did not have the same evidence about human life and its beginnings that we have now. I will do this to encourage the government to recognize the rights of the preborn.

          • goatini

            There is no such thing as a “preborn”. You are not “predead”.

            Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses are NOT persons, NOT citizens, and have NO rights.

            And there is only ONE entity in a pregnancy that is a person and citizen with rights – the living, breathing WOMAN.

          • Tara

            That is factually incorrect and no competent medical professional would ever deny th e existence of a living human being being present during a pregnancy. Even advocates of abortion. They simply use euphemisms.

            We can use the term “preborn” because it is a living human being which is presently existing within a woman’s uterus. When someone dies they are neither alive or human. So your analogy fails.

          • Shan

            “When someone dies they are neither alive or human. So your analogy fails”

            That’s not the analogy she was making, it was the “pre” part. She was pointing out that if you’re going to stretch to “pre-born” you have to stretch to “pre-dead” as well because neither make sense.

          • goatini

            Wrong. “Preborn” is a nonsense word. And a human corpse is human. But not surprised to read such nonsense, since radical misogynistic forced-birthers want for female US citizens to have even LESS rights than corpses – as proven by the macabre medical experiment done on the late Marlise Munoz by the state of Texas.

          • lady_black

            You think anyone is entitled to my blood? You have quite a few more “thinks” coming. *I* have need of “shelter and sustenance.” A fetus needs the entire body of it’s mother. That isn’t something that YOU get to demand of anyone but *your* self.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not wanting to continue the pregnancy is a pretty damn good reason, in my book.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Once again, reducing a woman to a mere utilitarian object. And no, biology does not equal destiny. Just because a woman can carry a pregnancy does not mean that she has to.

          • Tara

            I would absolutely agree that it is not necessary for a woman to be pregnant. But that side steps the question as to whether location should factor into the worthworth or rights of a human at the earliest stage of development. This also begs a few other question… But I’d like to stick to this for now.

          • lady_black

            No it doesn’t figure in at all. A zygote, embryo or fetus, at least prior to the point of viability, HAS NO RIGHTS. Period. Just as you have no right to demand that I breathe for you, a fetus has no such right either.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If the location was the next room or in a box just down the hall, that might be a question. But we’re talking about a living, sentient woman. To refer to her uterus as simply a mere location is to reduce this woman to a thing, a carrier. Still very, very insulting.

          • goatini

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth.

          • Shan

            “whether location should factor into the worthworth or rights of a human at the earliest stage of development.”

            What other location could it have?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What other location could it have?

            I really wish she’d answered this question.

          • Shan

            I suspect that he won’t.

          • lady_black

            Just because a woman is biologically equipped to carry a pregnancy, that doesn’t become her de facto purpose in the grand scheme of things. It’s not “what she’s there for,” Martin Luther.

          • Tara

            I never claimed that it was. Nor would I ever, actually, so I don’t understand the comment.

          • lady_black

            That was clearly your implication.

          • Tara

            No, it was not. I have decided for the time being to avoid pregnancy. Of course, I utilize my natural fertility cycle and do not just pop a pill.

          • goatini

            Yep, definitely a male. Now trying to push Vatican Roulette. Go troll somewhere else, SIR.

          • Shan

            “I utilize my natural fertility cycle and do not just pop a pill.”

            Oh. More concern troll bullshit. Wow.

          • goatini

            It’s a male advocating for Vatican Roulette mucus-reading.

          • Shan

            I don’t think anything’s wrong with people who want to do the mucus-reading, temp-taking thing unless they ALSO post crap like that up there from Tara which makes it sound like “pill-poppers” are doing something wrong. Judgmental assholery right there.

          • lady_black

            Well I would say that if they have that much time on their hands, they could be putting it to better use, but that’s just my opinion.

          • lady_black

            I had my tubes tied. Natural fertility bullshit is just one more chore.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I pop a pill so I’m not bleeding heavily and doubled up in pain for four lousy days each month. And not everyone wants to go through the procedure of testing their vaginal mucus to see if they can have sex on that day. Deal with it.

          • Tara

            You are so angry. And why I might ask? That is a totally morally legitimate reason to use the pill. Not even the dreaded Catholic Church would disagree or disapprove of contraception used for medical reasons when neither the means nor the ends is to avoid conception.

            Having been in your situation though I would encourage you to seek a competent medical doctor who’s first instinct is not to just put you on the pill. Women’s medicine has been reduced to just proscribing the pill for whatever ails you without doing any further exploration. There are often serious underlying causes for what you are experiencing and there is a high probability it can be fixed. Living with that sort of pain is NOT necessary.

          • goatini

            Passive-aggressive troll is passive-aggressive.

            And you’re also illiterate.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m not actually all that angry at the moment.And since I’m not Catholic, it really doesn’t bother me what the church says, so that’s neither here nor there. And yes, I do have a competent doctor who knows what he’s doing. I can actually function during my time of the month now, which makes me happy.

          • lady_black

            EVERY use of birth control pills is morally legitimate, twit.

          • JamieHaman

            Raised Catholic here, the Church most definitely does object to women using the pill for any reason. Your suffering is supposed to bring you closer to God.
            Also, the Church knows that if you are claiming to use the pill for any medical reason other than contraception, you are lying.

          • Ella Warnock

            I utilized a surgeon and had my tubes tied. Took care of that bit of inconvenient biology.

          • ansuz

            I utilize the natural properties of copper wire.

          • goatini

            Disingenuous troll is disingenuous.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, that’s precisely what you claimed.

          • Shan

            Yeah, no. You already said “all direct abortions should be outlawed” so don’t play that game.

          • goatini

            The living, breathing female US citizen, which is a human being, has the civil, human and Constitutional right to obtain, without obstruction or interference, a safe and legal pregnancy termination. Surely you aren’t disputing – OR attempting to interfere with – this very basic legal fact?

          • Tara

            It is currently legal but is by is by no means a “right”. A right is something that arises from nature and is acknowledged by the state. You require food and water therefore you have a right to it and no one cancan purposely deprive you of food and water. You take up space (you have height width and depth) and therefore you have a right to property which is your own because you require a place to exist, and so on. But without the right to live, to life itself, you can not have any other rights. If you do not exist at all then you have no rights to begin with… So the classical arguments go.

            In the mean time I will leverage the same legal mechanisms that our citizens used in the past when they did not have the same evidence about human life and its beginnings that we have now. I will do this to encourage the government to recognize the rights of the preborn.

          • goatini

            The right to personal bodily autonomy and the right to control one’s destiny are indeed RIGHTS. These civil, human and Constitutional rights are guaranteed by the protections of the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution. The 9th Amendment also provides said protections.

            Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses are NOT persons, NOT citizens, and have NO rights. There is only ONE entity in a pregnancy that is a person and citizen with rights – the living, breathing WOMAN.

            And there is no such thing as “the preborn”. You are not “predead”.

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth.

          • Shan

            Thanks. All I could do was a facepalm.

          • ansuz

            Urgh. The purpose of my organs is to enable me to live the life I want.

          • goatini

            A zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus is potential, potential ONLY, and is less valuable than an actual living, breathing female.

          • VonRecklingHause

            I agree that if a woman’s life is in danger because of the pregnancy then she should be able to abort. However, you’re providing a false dichotomy. Rarely is the choice one verse the other in terms of survival.

          • lady_black

            Who cares what you agree to? Maybe your mother cares, I don’t. And I don’t need your permission.

          • VonRecklingHause

            You may not need my personal permission. But you’ll need the permission of the law.

          • lady_black

            Says who?

          • lady_black

            Since when have women ever needed legal permission? Do you think women were sitting around waiting for abortion to be legal? Look up the Jane Collective, cupcake. You might learn something.

          • Ella Warnock

            Unless you can travel to and pay for abortion care. Women in that demographic aren’t going to be restricted by the law.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Unless you can be pregnant for her, you don’t have the right to state what risks she must assume. Only she does.

          • goatini

            All female US citizens have the civil, human and Constitutional right to obtain a safe, legal pregnancy termination. The reason is none of anyone’s business, as protected by Federal law.

          • Shan

            “Rarely is the choice one verse the other in terms of survival.”

            Why should a woman have to wait until the situation is exigent as far as her imminent life/health situation is concerned? If a woman discovers she’s pregnant she should be well-informed enough to know what risks she might encounter and be trusted to decide whether or not she’s ready to take them on.

          • Tara

            No. The thing developing in the human mother, whether a zygote, blastocyct, embryo or fetus is human and is living. (The definition of living according to an encyclopedia, is ordered and self directed growth.). It is not “potentially” human and it is not “potentially” a person. It really is a member of the human species and therefore you can ask two questions of it; what is it and who.. Given time and nutrition it will only develop into a human and not a dog or blade of grass. As a human being of the smallest order it has the potential to develop the ability to move under its own power, speak and reproduce, but it could do none of these things if it were not already human

          • lady_black

            Maybe, and maybe not. Are you implying that every zygote eventually walks and talks? Aren’t you forgetting a few things that need to happen before that?

          • Shan

            “Given time and nutrition it will only develop into a human and not a dog or blade of grass.”

            Yes, but only if a woman decides to gestate it and give birth to it. Is there some reason you think she shouldn’t be legally allowed to do that?

          • Tara

            I would tweak this slightly and say that it would occur so long as she did nothing. She would have to act in a positive manner otherwise. (With the exceptions of natural miscarriage and stillbirth.)

          • Shan

            Legally, was my main point.

          • ansuz

            Er, no. If I became pregnant and behaved normally for myself (and didn’t try to kill myself), I would not have a healthy pregnancy. I drink coffee by the bucket, take medications that are not safe for pregnancy, and barely get five hundred calories per day. People work to make their pregnancies work out.

          • lady_black

            Nope. 50-70% of all blastocysts fail to implant naturally, for unknown reasons. That is certainly “natural” but it’s no “miscarriage.” So in essence, every zygote has a most likely than not fate of being *nothing*, with no positive action required.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’re completely discounting the enormous effort, both physical and otherwise, that is required from the woman to bring about a healthy pregnancy and birth. Again, a pregnant woman is more than just a container for a fetus.

          • goatini

            Anagram for “Tara”: A Rat

          • goatini

            Wrong. A zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus is potential, potential ONLY, and is less valuable than an actual living, breathing female. NOT a person, NOT a citizen, and has NO RIGHTS.

          • lady_black

            I am not a location. How dare you reduce me to the status of chattel property. I’M A HUMAN BEING.

          • goatini

            What are your thoughts on erasing the civil, human and Constitutional rights of innocent female US citizens in favor of protecting the rights of rapists?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I am not merely a location. Arkansas is a location.
            A man’s penis is in his pants, fine.
            A man’s penis is in my vagina and I don’t want it there, rape. Same penis, same value. Location matters when we’re talking about people’s bodies.
            See how that works? Women aren’t merely “locations.”

          • Lieutenant Nun

            You are a location. I have it on good authority that your kidneys are an accredited unicorn farm!!

          • lady_black

            I’m pretty sure more people are laughing at you than the author. I know I am. My husband has a word for what you advocate. He says to call you what you are. A slaver.

          • Tara

            And I would call that an ad hominem fallacy. Typically used by people unable to think through their arguments and analyze the consequences.

          • lady_black

            No missy, it’s no ad hominem fallacy. You advocate enslaving women to a zygote. No mistake about that.

          • goatini

            “Tara” is a male.

          • lady_black

            Well, whatever it is, it’s a slaver.

          • goatini

            Yes, s/h/it is a gestational slaver.

          • Deesse de la lune

            I’m pretty sure “Tara” is Austin Ruse. I recognize his poor debate skills and nonsensical arguments.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think you’re right.

          • goatini

            I knew it was male.

          • Ella Warnock

            For someone who gets his panties in such a twist about contraception, Ruse only has two kids. Gets pretty touchy if you point that out, too. Very defensive.

          • goatini

            And s/h/it supports rapists’ rights.

          • goatini

            You support gestational slavery, and ascribe “rights” to a diploid cell that has over a 50% chance of being flushed unceremoniously down the toilet as bodily waste. Stop lying.

    • goatini

      All forced birth “arguments” are invalid, irrelevant, and a grave insult to the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens. Go troll somewhere else.

      • Tara

        There is no such thing as a “forced birth”. It is a natural process and a ordinary consequence of human sexual activity.

        • goatini

          When a woman with an unwanted pregnancy cannot freely and without obstruction access her civil, human and Constitutional RIGHT to obtain a safe, legal pregnancy termination, the birth that ensues due to lack of access is FORCED BIRTH,

          Go troll somewhere else.

        • red_zone

          Tell that to women who are raped in countries where there is NO access to birth control or abortion and they are shamed for their pregnancy. tell that to young girls-young as 9 years-old-who are forced into marriages and become pregnant at 11 and give birth because it’s expected and demanded. NOT because they actually want to.

          • VonRecklingHause

            1. We live in the United States. Not Ruwanda.

            2. Abortion due to rape is fairly rare, around one percent of all abortions.

            Do you know what a red herring is?

          • lady_black

            Yep. That ain’t it. There are 30 thousand women a year who become pregnant by rape in the USA every year. That’s just those we know about, because rape is a grossly underreported crime. They don’t all abort. That doesn’t mean the women weren’t raped.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Since many rapes go unreported and no one is required to give the reason why they want an abortion, that number is probably much higher, And considering that 1 in 3 women will have an abortion, even 1 % is still a fairly large number.

          • Ivy Mike

            Do you know how to spell “Rwanda”?

            At least I can, and I also know what a red herring is. You obviously don’t, or you wouldn’t have misused the term.

            Perhaps you should go study for your fifth-grade tests.

          • VonRecklingHause

            “Do you know how to spell “Rwanda”?”

            Nope.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why does the fact that abortions due to rape constitute a small percentage of abortions make them a red herring? Why is that relevant to you?
            Whining that abortion due to rape is rare is a hallmark of an anti-choice internet troll. Things like this are why no one here thinks you’re pro-choice.

          • Melinda Hampton

            Please don’t.

            Yourself is a troll.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Wot

          • Jennifer Starr

            Huh? Don’t understand.

          • goatini

            “Hampton” has trolled here before. I’ll find his other sock and post that ID too.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Necrophilia is also rare. So, no need to pretend it even exists.

          • Tara

            So abortion is the answer? Not education and changing the culture that allowed such activities to take place?

          • ansuz

            Abortion is part of a full complement of tools for enabling people to take control of their lives.

            EDITed for word choice.

          • goatini

            Safe, legal pregnancy termination is THE answer to unwanted pregnancy.

          • lady_black

            Yes. Abortion is the answer to an unwanted pregnancy, and the answer to not being in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy are contraception and sterilization on demand. No ridiculous and unlawful “age or number of children” barriers. It’s the business of NO doctor why a woman doesn’t want children/more children. That’s her business alone.

          • red_zone

            Abortion is ONE answer out of many. Women will not be able to get an education or pull themselves out of poverty otherwise if they are denied access to it, along with birth control. Things like putting off marriage until they are older are more difficult, but giving these women OPTIONS in regards to their own reproductive health would be MASSIVE. the number one killer of girls between the ages of 15-19 is CHILDBIRTH. Providing them with options would drastically reduce that number.

            Changing a culture begins with small steps and providing reproductive options like abortion and birth control would be, though it seems small, a big step in helping these women out of poverty.

        • Shan

          Miscarriage and abortion are ordinary consequences of human sexual activity as well. And fertilized eggs actually have only a very small chance of resulting in a live birth.

          • Tara

            Yep I agree with this statement

        • lady_black

          A “natural process.” So is death.

    • http://www.awaypoint.wordpress.com Valerie Tarico

      Outside of certain theologies, this tight logic fails because P2 is not a fact but rather a contested assertion. It is an “I believe” statement that defines person as equivalent to human. However, theologians, philosophers, and scientists all have a long history of defining person to mean something other than merely human. For example, in the Bible, which I hypothesize to be the basis for your worldview, law asserts and narrative illustrates that there exist degrees of personhood that have moral weight.

      • Tara

        P2 is a fact. All human beings possess capacities that only having a human nature can afford. All humans are persons, but not all persons are human, if we are discussingthis philiosphically and theologically that is.

        • goatini

          Wrong. P2 is NOT a “fact”. All persons, ever, have already been born.

          • Tara

            Pardon, but huh?

          • VonRecklingHause

            She’s playing games with semantics. She doesn’t believe that it is possible to abort a “person” – only to abort a “fetus.” That way, she deflects any possible guilt she may feel supporting the abortion of a human fetus by declaring it a “clump of cells” or some other thing easily discarded.

            I’m a little sick of the semantics and euphemisms myself. “Pro-life” and “pro-choice” are about abortion, right? So let’s just call them what they are: pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Says the person who used to try and claim that he was pro-choice…

          • VonRecklingHause

            Don’t take my explanation of goatinis comment to mean more than you think it means.

            I am pro-choice. However, I’m not one of these radical “abortion anytime anywhere” people that I’ve seen. For example, I’d never advocate elective abortion after viability. I don’t think most pro-choice people would. I think Roe v Wade was quite clear about that – although the definition of viability seems to be changing with improved NICU technology.

            I’m more of a Clinton-esque pro-choice guy. I believe abortion should be rare (it currently isn’t), safe (it is, I think) and legal.

            And I’m all in favor of reducing the number of abortions by offering free or low cost contraception to those that want it. The problem is that a lot of people won’t use contraception even when it’s free. I don’t personally understand that at all.

          • Shan

            ” I’m not one of these radical “abortion anytime anywhere” people that I’ve seen.”

            Who are those people? Seriously, I’m curious. Especially if you’re talking about legal terms.

          • VonRecklingHause

            They exist. I ran across this when someone was defending the women who went to Gosnell for abortions at 30 weeks. I said the women should have had given up the babies for adoption since it was already too late and the response was

            “Her body. Her choice”

            Really? That’s doesn’t fly with me. Not at 30 weeks. Sorry to disappoint you.

          • Shan

            Show me.

          • VonRecklingHause

            How am I going to show you a personal conversation I had with someone?

            I’ve unfortunately seen the same comment online – albeit probably from people who don’t realize that they are tacitly condoning abortion at 39.9 weeks.

          • lady_black

            First, it was 30 weeks, now it’s 39.9 weeks. Yeah that never happened. You can link directly to another thread, and specific comment.

          • VonRecklingHause

            I don’t remember the specific thread. It wasn’t even on this website I don’t think.

            30, 31, 35, 39.9…..whatever. If you support the phrase “her body, her choice” (in the context of a response to any objection to 3rd trimester abortions) you are basically saying it’s OK for a woman to abort all the way up until normal labor. That’s ridiculous and you know it.

            I doubt most people on this website support 3rd trimester abortions. I sure don’t. I know, I know…that makes me a anti-choicer, right?

          • lady_black

            It makes you ignorant. First, by definition, an abortion can only be done PRIOR to viability. After viability, it’s a delivery or a birth. NOT an abortion. Even if the infant is stillborn. What Gosnell was doing that got him in hot water wasn’t “abortion.” He was actually delivering live infants and murdering them. Please stop already with Gosnell, and do not conflate his criminal activity with legal abortion.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Yes yes. We get it. You want to play the semantics game as well.

            I know Gosnell wasn’t performing legal abortions. But what did the women think? They thought “oh good, I’m getting an abortion. ”

            This gets into a whole bunch of issue that are way too complex to expound upon. The “Partial Birth Abortion Act” (ugg…what a horribly misrepresentation of what happens) actually tried to solve some of this 10 years ago. Unfortunately, I think it made it worse. For example, the hospital my wife had our children in (where she works)…there was another women who gave birth at 22 weeks. The hospital would NOT place the child in the NICU because it was not viable. They gave the child to the mother and it died 16 hours later in her arms because the lungs weren’t developed enough. In that same hospital, a woman wanted an abortion of a 24 week old gestation and was turned away. The law in the state had a cutoff at 24 weeks. What if she had come in one week prior?

            “Viability” is a tricky game. I won’t mention Gosnell gain. He was a murderer and should be in prison.

          • Shan

            “He was a murderer and should be in prison.”

            I agree. Because it’s supposed to be up to the physician to determine viability in all those cases.

          • Tara

            But the sad truth is its not. That is why so man women come to my state for abortions. In MD you can get abortions even in the third trimester. Technology is such now that viability is deep into the second trimester.

          • lady_black

            Viability is USUALLY about 26-28 weeks. Sometimes, it’s NEVER.

          • Melinda Hampton

            23-24 week.

          • ansuz

            Realistic viability, without a million-dollar NICU bill.

          • Melinda Hampton

            Don’t be a dick. My sisters baby was born at 24 weeks and shes doing fine now. Yes, she stayed in the NICU for about 6 weeks. No, the bill wasn’t a million dollars. SMDH

          • Lieutenant Nun

            24 weeks is still on the very cusp of viability. And rates of disability for extreme neonates are still quite high.

          • ansuz

            Then your sister’s baby was lucky.

          • ansuz

            Actually, having just done some research, ‘preterm’ is defined as less than 37 weeks gestation.
            “Preterm birth is a significant cost factor in healthcare, not even considering the expenses of long-term care for individuals with disabilities due to preterm birth. A 2003 study in the US determined neonatal costs to be $224,400 for a newborn at 500–700 g versus $1,000 at over 3,000 g. The costs increase exponentially with decreasing gestational age and weight. The 2007 Institute of Medicine report Preterm Birth found that the 550,000 preemies born each year in the U.S. run up about $26 billion in annual costs, mostly related to care in NICUs, but the real tab may top $50 billion.”
            en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Preterm_birth#Epidemiology

          • lady_black

            No, not really. Just because they can save a few at 23 weeks and half at 24 weeks, that doesn’t assume viability.

          • Melinda Hampton

            I thought you worked in healthcare. Since you personally aren’t knowledgeable about the subject, can you please ask an OBGYN at you hospital what they think viability is?

          • lady_black

            OK, I didn’t get through, so I’ll try again. At 23 weeks about 30 percent can be saved. At 24 weeks, about 50-70% can be saved. At 26-27 weeks, 90% will survive. THAT’S VIABILITY. Also at those earlier ages, long-term problems can be expected. The fact that you know of a 24 week preterm that survived is anecdotal and not to be taken as an example of what’s typical. I also have a friend who had a 24 week pre-term baby, and it was a fight and a half to keep her alive. She had to have a PEG tube (with accompanying MRSA infection) and to the best of my knowledge, the child still has the PEG tube. That’s hardly a desirable outcome. But she’s one of the lucky ones. She’s still alive. They thought more than a few times she wouldn’t make it, especially with the infection. I’m very happy I never had to go through anything like that. They will treat a preterm infant at 23 or 24 weeks because of the roughly 1 in 2 chance of pulling through. But I doubt any doctor will call that “viable.” It could more precisely be called the outer edges of viability. Still very much an expensive gamble.

          • Shan

            From what I’ve read, parents can refuse NICU or other “extraordinary care” for their preterm infants. Is this true in your experience?

          • R0chambeau

            So viability is 23 weeks.

            Thanks nurse. (not MD).

          • lady_black

            No. Most born at 23 weeks will die. That is not considered “viable.”

          • R0chambeau

            Yeah, we know you couldn’t be a doctor.

            Thanks nurse.

          • Shan

            In MD, abortion is limited to pre-viability except in cases of fetal abnormality.

            http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf

          • lady_black

            What Gosnell’s patients “thought” is irrelevant, because he was the doctor, and the patient is dependent upon the doctor for their information. I’m not talking about nebulous thoughts or Gosnell’s lies to his patients. The fact is that “abortion” is NOT what he was doing. Let’s deal in reality here and stop with the mind fuck.

          • VonRecklingHause

            He was selling abortion, correct?

          • lady_black

            And drugs.

          • lady_black

            Maybe he was selling his patients “abortion” but that isn’t what he was delivering. That never happens does it? Someone is promised X and ends up getting something totally different.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            People go for butt implants and get concrete injected into their rears instead because the plastic surgeon is a criminal hack. The patient cannot be expected to know that their ‘doctor’ is a criminal.

            Are patients also responsible for the rapes they suffer when the criminal dentist puts then under? Should patents be omniscient?

          • Tara

            Actually no. Roe v Wade made abortion legal through all 9 months of pregnancy. Go ask any constitutional lawyer.

          • lady_black

            That isn’t exactly what Roe said. And Roe said nothing about a right to murder a live-born infant. The termination of a pregnancy after viability is a delivery. Period. How else do you think it gets outside?

          • Shan

            “Roe v Wade made abortion legal through all 9 months of pregnancy.”

            No, it didn’t. Go ask any constitutional lawyer.

          • Shan

            “How am I going to show you a personal conversation I had with someone?”

            You don’t have to. If you can show me some legislation in that regard, maybe that would be an interesting comparison. Because seriously, there are no “pro-choice” advocates trying to make “abortion on demand” legal up to 30 weeks gestation in the same way there are “anti-abortion” advocates trying to make all abortion AT ALL illegal in all circumstances.

            Because, really, I don’t care much about what random internet posters “tacitly condone” because that doesn’t mean anything in real-life terms. I’m more interested in actual legislation. Which, like I said, there IS none out there that’s trying to make “abortion” at 39.9 weeks legal, whereas there IS a bunch of legislation out there trying to make ALL abortion (and some types of contraception that certain types THINK are abortifacient) illegal.

          • VonRecklingHause

            You’ve made some very good points.

            There’s no legislation for the “abortion anytime” because it’s a ridiculous opinion and would never pass. Also, like you eluded to, there are people out there that want to outlaw all abortion. That means no rape exemption. No health exemption. NADA. Some of them have even tried to pass legislation for this(I’m not quite sure I’d call it a “bunch” like you did), but that doesn’t happen often because. they know it will fail and they know it will disenfrachise female voters. It’s a lose-lose for a politician.

            This is like any issue. There are extremes. Most people are in the middle.

            Anyway, I appreciate you comment.

          • Shan

            “Some of them have even tried to pass legislation for this(I’m not quite sure I’d call it a “bunch” like you did)”

            Oh, it’s more than a bunch. It’s rampant at state levels all over the country AND getting more popular at the Federal level. Check out “personhood” laws and you’ll begin to get an understanding,

          • VonRecklingHause

            “Personhood” laws are weird. In some aspects I understand them – like punishing a person who tries to hurt or murder the unborn child that his wife/girlfriend/person he got pregnant is carrying.

            In the other sense, treating “personhood” at fertilization is a dumb fucking concept. As much as I oppose the “clump of cells” argument, it literally is a clump of cells.

            I don’t know when a thing goes from being a bunch of cells to an actual developing human. Heartbeat? Brain activity? Pain sensation? 18 years old when they can move out and get a job? It’s a tough call. I’m not smart enough to make that call.

          • Shan

            “I don’t know when a thing goes from being a bunch of cells to an actual developing human”

            How about when the woman who has decided to gestate and give birth to it decides she’s going to DO that? And I say this as someone who’s looked at the “+” sign on the pee-stick and made that decision more than once.

          • lady_black

            Very good answer.

          • Tara

            I believe the evidence is overwhelming that it is a living human being and what someone feels about it is irrelevant. Her decision to carry it to term does not magically make it human. It was always human.

            Similar to if I drew a circle and then declared it was a square. I could say it was a square but it would still be a circle.

          • Jennifer Starr

            and what someone feels about it is irrelevant.

            You’re really fairly straightforward about reducing the woman to a carrier, aren’t you?

          • Tara

            I am not interested in emotionally charged discussions. I am interested only in reasonable arguments that are coherent, consistent and supported by evidence.

          • goatini

            Well, nothing you’ve posted here was reasonable, coherent, consistent, or supported by evidence.

            Plus, you support the rights of rapists to select, by violent felony sexual assault, the mother of their child. You support erasing the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens – in favor of rapists’ rights.

          • Tara

            Right. Notice there haven’t been many people advocating your position because, well you’re wrong.

          • goatini

            All female US citizens wishing to protect their civil, human and Constitutional rights from enemy attack agree that “no exceptions” supporters are advocates of rapists’ rights. Go back to Stanek’s sewer, sir, your depraved and offensive rape advocacy trolling is not wanted here.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s a cop-out if ever I heard one. We are not robots. We are emotional beings and pregnancy, no matter what you choose to do about it, involves emotions. And forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will and saying that their feelings about it are irrelevant reduces them to the status of an object.

          • Tara

            Good objective judgments, using sound reasoning, are accessible to everyone. People do not, or should not, make decisions in time of crisis as a general rule. Why? Because we really do loose out ability to reason as the emotional temperature rises and that leads to bad decisions. (Basic physiological response to stress)

          • ansuz

            Wot?

          • goatini

            Illiterate rape apologist.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Insert papers A into slot B and get answer C every time–only that’s not the way the real world works. Human feelings can’t just be shoved aside for cold logic. No matter how much you want it to be, life is not that black and white and answers—and pregnancies are just not that simple..A pregnant woman needs to make the choice that’s best for her. Not the choice that’s best for you or me. For her.

          • Tara

            Again I agree with you. But when we are not in those situation we can and should explore whether the thing is right or wrong and why and why not. Which is what I though we were doing.

          • lady_black

            “Right” and “wrong” are highly subjective terms, and your definition doesn’t apply to everyone under all circumstances.

          • lady_black

            Bullshit. It’s my job to make decisions in times of crisis. If I wasn’t able to do that, I’d be professionally ineffective. I’m a nurse. Making decisions in times of crisis is my bread and butter. And I think the words you were looking for were “lose our” not “loose out.” But either way, it’s nonsense.

          • Tara

            I hope not because you are perhaps one of the most ignorant people i’ve come across. I find your claim highly unlikely.

            Silly woman. If you are working as a nurse, YOU are not in crisis . The patients you claim to nurse, are.

          • lady_black

            You’re ignorant, not I. Your claim was that people shouldn’t make decisions in times of crisis. No mention of who the crisis involves. It may be “their” crisis, but they aren’t the actors. I AM. I’m trained to act in time of crisis, including my own. if able.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, she’s very knowledgable and competent.

          • red_zone

            But SHE has to make the call on the appropriate course of action and that is not something to be taken lightly. The wrong decision can have devastating results.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Fire all the generals then. Can’t have them making military decisions in times of crisis. And shut down every ER as well.

          • Shan

            “I am not interested in emotionally charged discussions.”

            LOL! Too late.

          • Tara

            Well I’m not emotional. I understand why others are so the attacks aren’t really an issue.

          • Shan

            If you’re not emotional, stop using emotionally-charged terms. Like I said, too late.

          • Tara

            Sure. But which are emotionally charged? In the future I will do my best to avoid them if they are not technically correct.

          • Shan

            Try dropping “preborn” to start with. It’s just as “technically correct” a term for an embryo or fetus as calling it “prepubescent” because, technically, it’s neither one of those things. But guess which one gives it the emotional charge?

          • Jennifer Starr

            From Stepford?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So make some of those arguments. So are you are a scrub.

          • Julie Watkins

            There’s more than sufficient evidence that current law treats pregnant women (and women perceived as possibly pregnant) as second class citizens. I don’t think it “unreasonable” or unreasonably “emotionally charged” to insist it is wrong to treat pregnant as “mere carriers”.

            It’s quite evident you want to control the discussion by defining certain concerns as trivial. There’s nothing unreasonable about objecting to unreasonable expectations about how women make decisions about unplanned, unwanted, or crisis pregnancies.

          • Tara

            Emotions are not what one should make decisions by. I think you would agree. Its not about controlling the conversation as much about talking how things actually are and not how we feel about them. Emotions are transient, they are the bodies way of signaling that something is important and needs attention. It is the intellects job to discern and make judgments.

          • Julie Watkins

            Again, I don’t think it “unreasonable” or unreasonably “emotionally charged” to insist it is wrong to treat pregnant women as “mere carriers”.

            How is that statement overly emotional? If it is a valid concern, then you saying it’s not a valid way to discuss the topic then you are trying to control the discussion by dismissing the concern as trivial.

          • Tara

            The language of the article above is full of hostile rhetoric which is emotionally charged and does not follow logic, reason or science, making it unreasonable. It is unreasonable because it does not acurrately portray the pro life side believes and then goes on to be insulting.

            Let’s have the conversation if you want. I’m all for that. I’m willing to listen. But let’s talk and do our best to leave the attacks and name calling to the side.

            To reduce everything we’ve discussed to my supporting women as mere carriers is really just ignoring the arguments and reasoning and attacking the person.

            Perhaps you can restate the concerns. If they’re devoid of characachers of my position then maybe I can address those instead of the misunderstandings that I see.

          • Julie Watkins

            What I thought we were discussing was my objection to your objection to “mere carrier”. I think there is a lot of evidence with all the excessive abortion legislation that current government law treats women as “mere carriers”.

            Actually I’m not interested in discussing the full article because until we have agreement on the “mere carrier” issue, because I’ll just go back to it eventually.

          • Tara

            Fair enough. So I can better understand where you are coming from, could you explain what you mean by “carrier”? Then if you have the opportunity could you explain why you think certain legislation treats women in this sense? Pick just one or two examples if you could so I can follow along. I’ll do my best to keep up in the time I have.

          • Julie Watkins

            OK, this is how I see it:

            It’s treating women as “mere carriers” when society has laws and expectations concerning pregnant women, or women perceived to be pregnant. That’s saying she doesn’t have bodily autonomy, that her autonomy is dependent on her pregnancy status.

            As for legislation that treats women as “carriers”, that abortion is a matter for legislation itself is an example. Abortion needs medical standards, medical best practices, such as in Canada. The 2nd example is that nation-wide there were, I think, been more than 300 laws passed about abortion. That’s an anti-autonomy agenda.

            I’ve got time concerns also, so I’ll be bouncing off- and on-line.

          • Tara

            Would it be fair to say you think women should have absolute autonomy? Could you think of examples of what that means and does not mean? Could you provide just a couple of them?

            I’m asking these questions just so I have a sense of your expectations when you are using these phrases. I do not want to assume wrongly and I hope you would kindly correct me if I do at some point.

            I do have a few more questions about the use of the word carriers and its correlation to legislation. Does this include legislation like the one child policy in China? What of positive laws that protect women from immoral boyfriends who might seek to end the pregnancy using nefarious means? Laws saying you could or could not do these things still legislates based on pregnancy status. Would they also be things that would reduce women to mere carriers?

          • ansuz

            “Laws saying you could or could not do these things still legislates based on pregnancy status.”
            No, they don’t. There are laws against physical assault and there are laws against poisoning people. There is also the possibility of civil litigation for emotional trauma (I think, IDRK how civil court works). Those are adequate.

          • Julie Watkins

            autonomy: I believe “I don’t want to be pregnant” is a valid reason to get an abortion.
            Since I don’t agree with the validity of laws about abortion, talking about this law or another seems pointless. The number of abortion laws introduced and passed, year after year, in the context of a lot of picketing and harassment against abortion or contraception providers shows those politicians and groups intentions of treating women as carriers.
            It’s an example of a birdcage effect: no one wire can prevent a bird from flying away, but the cumulative effect of lots of wires is to hold the bird caged. All these laws are pointless. Canada does fine without abortion laws, they have medical standards.

          • Tara

            What makes abortion worthy of special treatment? All medical procedures are subject to legislation. All medical procedures are subject to scrutiny which ensures the quality of what they do and how they are executed, whether they are necessary and if there are legitimate was to accomplish the objective. Legislation of these things does not reduce women to “mere carriers” it respects their bodily integrity.

            All laws have the birdcage effect. For good reason too. Most people do not want to put forth the effort to examine the questions of why or why not.

            “I want” or “I don’t agree” are good starts but you need to be able to explain why.

          • Julie Watkins

            It’s worthy of special treatment because politicians and anti-abortion groups have made it so, interfering with what should be a private matter between a pregnant woman, her doctors, and other chosen advisers.

            Legislators shouldn’t be involved with medicine. That should be dealt with by medical standards. I don’t object to doctors and hospitals being licensed by government, but it should be medical professionals that determine minimum standards and best practices.

            To the extent that legislators single out abortion and pregnancy they are treating women as “mere carriers”

            One of the reasons I am so insistent about this is that medical standards are a better “fit” for the grey areas. Law, in the ideal case, means treating everyone “the same”. Medicine, on the other hand, allows for more variation, it’s patient-focused. Different patients react differently to the same procedure, it’s less “one size fits all”.

            To the extent that a woman is expected to validate her abortion or pegnancy choices to a stranger, she is being treated as a “mere carrier”. To the extent that she is expected to negotiate her choices with anyone other than her doctor or other chosen advisers she is being treated as a “mere carrier”.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            So if someone is raping the shit out of you, you would be best to be non emotional and think ‘this isn’t so bad’. Right?

          • ansuz

            “living human being”
            Who cares? No mind, no value except what the pregnant person ascribes to it.

          • Tara

            Finally a good rebuttle!

            Could you define mind for me?

          • ansuz

            “In the end, we are self-perceiving, self-inventing, locked-in mirages that are little miracles of self-reference.”
            — Douglas Hofstadter, I Am a Strange Loop p.363

            That book has the best discussion I’ve ever read on the subject.

          • goatini

            Illiterate rape apologist. Go troll somewhere else, like the sewer.

          • Shan

            “I believe the evidence is overwhelming that it is a living human being and what someone feels about it is irrelevant.”

            So what YOU feel about it is irrelevant and all that really matters is who gets to decide whether they want to risk their life and/or health to give screaming, bloody birth to it. Check.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ahh, pro-lifers. Always willing to demand sacrifice–as long as the sacrifice is made by someone else.

          • Tara

            Yes what I -feel- is as irrelevant as anyone else’s feelings about it. What is important is what we can reason to and know as a fact

          • Shan

            Okay, fine. So the fact is that if a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant and give birth she can have an abortion because there is no reason she should be legally compelled to do otherwise.

          • Tara

            Unfortunately I have to hit the sack. But before I go I presume, from your other posts, that you do not feel that abortion should be available through all nine months of pregnancy. Therefore you can think of reasons she should be compelled to “do otherwise”.

            I simply try to assess the question like this: Are there legitimate reasons why we should legislate abortion some of the time? If so, what are those reasons and are those reasons true some of the time, or all of the time.?

          • ansuz

            “you do not feel that abortion should be available through all nine months of pregnancy.”
            I think you’re presuming too much. I certainly think it should be legally available throughout.

          • Tara

            Well Shan wanted to know who might support unrestricted access to abortion because her line was at viability. You’ve provided the evidence that there are people out there with that goal in mind.

            Night!

          • Shan

            No, I wanted evidence of anyone who is floating legislation trying to make abortion legal 100% of the time.

          • ansuz

            The issue is settled law where I live, and I support those laws. It makes much more sense to leave the decision in the hands of doctors and hospital ethics boards than in courts.

          • Shan

            ” It makes much more sense to leave the decision in the hands of doctors and hospital ethics boards”

            Unless they’re Catholic.

          • ansuz

            Well, it’s still better for a doctor at a Catholic hospital who performs an abortion in an emergency situation to face sanctions from the hospital board than to face criminal charges.

          • Arekushieru

            Ansuz, you are awesome!

          • Shan

            Nope, you are not going to drag me down that strawman path.

          • red_zone

            No woman anywhere should have to justify HER DECISION to have an abortion at anytime.

          • Julie Watkins

            The reason why I believe “abortion should be legal through all nine months* of pregnancy” is I believe there should be NO abortion laws. That’s the situation in Canada. There is no “problem” with abortion that would not be better addressed by medical standards. A woman in her 9th month can’t safely self-abort*, she needs medical help. I wish that help to professional medical staff, and I think it would be better if abortion care were integrated back into general OB-Gyn practice. Kicked out into detached clinics makes it easier for disreputable “doctors” to get away with near back-alley behavior.

            *past a certain point it’s safer to induce labor than do an abortion, so that to do an abortion would be against medical best practice.

          • Arekushieru

            Human =/= human being/person. Pro-Choicers KNOW a fetus is human, we just believe that it is not a person and that whether it is a person or not is irrelevant. There is only overwhelming evidence that a fetus is human but NOT that it is a human being/person. WE understand that how someone feels about something is irrelevant, it is Pro-Lifers that often cannot recognize this distinction.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A fetus does not meet the definition of “human being.” Words have meaning.

            http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

            (a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

            (b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

            (c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

          • Tara

            You would agree, would you not, that black persons are in fact fully human and persons? Yet there was a time when it was disputed and even written in the law that they were not.

            Words do mean something. Regardless of what the law says the developing organism in the woman’s womb is a human. Not an cat, dog or orange. If you were to examine its DNA you would find it no different than a infant, child, adult or even corpse. (We’d have to get into a larger discussion as to why a corpse is not a human being, but the remaining material of what was once a human being to make all the right distinctions. I’ve briefly covered that in other responses… But that is beyond the scope of our conversation.) “Being” means to exist. Therefore it is a human being.

            Laws are meant to legislate behavior so everyone can live a good and ordered life. I suggest the book “Aristotle for everyone”. It includes discussions of what happiness is and what is due to us, as well as what is due to the greater society.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Black people are sentient sapient individuals who were not violating the bodies of the slave owners.

            You want to treat women like subhuman incubators by forcing them to host a mindless animal organism at great risk to their physical and mental health.

            BTW, during antebellum slaver, black female slaves were forcibly impregnated like broodmares. Traded like cows. They often aborted their pregnancies. Do you think these women were evil for aborting? As evil as the slavers?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            TARA: You would agree, would you not, that black persons are in fact fully human and persons? Yet there was a time when it was disputed and even written in the law that they were not.
            …………….
            What does this have to do with me getting a safe and legal medical abortion?

            TARA: Words do mean something. Regardless of what the law says the developing organism in the woman’s womb is a human. Not an cat, dog or orange. If you were to examine its DNA you would find it no different than a infant, child, adult or even corpse. (We’d have to get into a larger discussion as to why a corpse is not a human being, but the remaining material of what was once a human being to make all the right distinctions. I’ve briefly covered that in other responses… But that is beyond the scope of our conversation.) “Being” means to exist. Therefore it is a human being.
            ………………………………..
            You want me to accept your opinion rather than law to make public health policy? Why would I want to do that? What are we debating here. A fetus is human, it is alive, it may be unwanted.

            TARA: Laws are meant to legislate behavior so everyone can live a good and ordered life. I suggest the book “Aristotle for everyone”. It includes discussions of what happiness is and what is due to us, as well as what is due to the greater society.

            ………………..
            What does the above have to do with me being able to get an abortion? Illegal abortion and childbirth are the leading causes of maternal death worldwide. In the developing world, childbirth is the leading cause of death for women ages 15-19. Abortion/contraception is a human right.

            I think you like to read yourself talk. I have blood in the game.

          • Tara

            Dear Plum,

            I pointed out the past with regard to the past because it demonstrates the reality that just because something is lawful, doesn’t make it correct. Treating blacks as inferior in the 1900s, women as less then second class citizens in some middle easter countries, the list goes on.

            These are not my opinions, not mere beliefs, but common and widely accepted medical facts. Even at the earliest stages of development the organism in a mothers womb, created at conception resulting from egg and sperm joining, is a living human being.

            I was just responding to your claim that it was not a living human being. We hadn’t taken up the issue about medical abortions in the response of mine just before this.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            So were the black slave women who aborted their rape pregnancies guilty of acting like Hitler?

          • Tara

            You know what. That is an excellent question and I get a lot of flack on my side of things for the following answer.

            Murder is a moral and legal term. Murder is the free act of killing a human being with malice and forethought. I am certain that almost all women who procure abortions do not do so out of malice for their child, nor do they do it by a completely free act of the will. Therefore, abortion is not murder in the classical sense. It IS the killing of an innocent human being. However, unlike Hitler who was in complete control of his faculties, women under duress who feel this is the only viable option are not.

            We can see this very distinction played out in our own legal system by the differing criminal charges when one human being is responsible for the death of another. These different charges (first, second and third degree murder or negligant homicide, etc) are based on intent and free action.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            You mean that pro lifers get pissy with you for that answer?

          • Tara

            Yes, from a good number of the angry rabid prolifers that come from strict fundamentalist backgrounds or misinformed Catholics.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I never suggested that a fetus is not human. It is not a human being by definition, legal and/or otherwise.

            You have not addressed my essential question. What does any of the above verbiage have to do with me getting a safe abortion?

            And why are you not responding at all to medical fact? And if you are not going to respond to medical fact, why should I spend one more moment considering your arguments?

          • Lieutenant Nun

            A capacity for sentience becomes apparent around 24 to 26 weeks. Until then it is completely mindless.

          • Tara

            I think that the no health exception is a straw man. All direct abortions should be outlawed. Indirect abortions are another matter all together and this is a point where I find pro choice and pro life advocated alike are totally confused.

            Do you know the difference between the two by chance?

            Shan … I completely agree with you on this. Not because I don’t believe preborn humans are not persons but because this has several implications that I don’t think have been thoroughly investigated. Further, while they are human and persons there are practical concerns based on the fragility of their life and what is reasonable in attempts to help them grow. Furthermore, because most people do NOT grasp the difference between direct and indirect abortions I believe it would be misapplied. Instances where indirect abortions are acceptable would be thrown to the side, I think, because our politicians are incompetent.

          • lady_black

            Excuse me, but what are you babbling about?

          • goatini

            Rapists’ rights is what s/h/it is babbling about. S/h/it thinks that rapists’ rights to select, by violent felony sexual assault, the mother of their child, should be protected and elevated.

          • goatini

            Flagged for advocating for rapists’ rights. Amoral and depraved, advocating for the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to be erased, and for the rights of criminal rapists to be elevated and protected,

          • Shan

            “most people do NOT grasp the difference between direct and indirect abortions”

            Why call it by a new name that’s neither legal nor medical?

          • goatini

            Same reason they make up nonsense words that are neither legal nor medical, like “preborn” – to attempt to protect their untenable BS.

          • lady_black

            I’m going to start referring to myself as an undead corpse. It makes as much sense as referring to a zygote as an “unborn child.”

          • Tara

            Actually it is medical that’s why I used it.

          • Shan

            No, it’s not. It’s a Catholic thing

          • Jennifer Starr

            The doctrine of double effect. Meaning that they remove a perfectly healthy section of the fallopian tube instead of using methotrexate, compromising a woman’s future fertility and putting adherence to doctrine above what’s best for the patient.

          • Shan

            Oh, great. Maim the woman while you wait for the embryo to die “naturally” instead of taking the steps necessary to preserve her health. Perfect. Savita Halappanavar, anyone?

          • Tara

            Well we do have our medical facilities, universities etc because it was they [catholics] who first established them in mass, so no doubt it flows from that. But even my pro abortion obgyn friends make that distinction. They are not Catholic. So its possibly a regional thing.

          • ansuz

            It is not in any medical literature I’ve seen.

          • Shan

            “It is not in any medical literature I’ve seen.”

            Me, neither. I had to Google it. And all it gave me was Catholic sites, so.

          • Shan

            “pro abortion”

            You can drop that one as well.

          • lady_black

            Bullshit. I have been a nurse for 27 years, and have never heard the terms “indirect and direct abortion.” In medicine they simply don’t exist. You are not fooling anyone here, including the Catholics and the recovering Catholics like myself.

          • ansuz

            en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Indirect_abortion

          • lady_black

            It is NOT a medical term, it is a theological nonsense term rooted in the theological nonsense of Catholicism, and I will not even consider the defense of nonsense. It has NO place in medicine, so keep it in your church where it belongs.

          • ansuz

            The distinction really is quite silly.

          • Arekushieru

            So you don’t think fetuses are of equal value to women? After all, ‘indirect’ and ‘direct’ abortion both have the same intent, to terminate a pregnancy, and BOTH result in the same thing, a dead fetus. The ONLY difference is that you think the value of a fetus can be suborned if an abortion is ‘indirect’, but a woman’s cannot under NO circumstances (of which YOU can ‘perceive’, at least). Therefore, you DO believe, like everyone else, that the value of a fetus and a woman are completely unequal.

          • fiona64

            Lady, I just have to wonder what you would say to a pregnant woman who is the mother of a young child who has just discovered that she has rubella … and is at a crucial stage of fetal development. She is told by the doctor that there is a 99 percent chance that her pregnancy will result in a blind, deaf, develomentally disabled infant. Would you be willing to pay the bills to institutionalize the child that you demand be born? I’m just curious.

            That woman was my mother, BTW. Her obstetrician helped her and my dad obtain an illegal abortion in 1965. I was a little over a year old at the time.

            With the anti-vaxxers running rampant, ,and measles making a return in this country, look for this scenario to happen again and again. And you think that someone should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term that only results in misery for everyone involved? Quality of life matters more than the mere fact of life, you know …

          • Tara

            I think that the no health exception is a straw man. All direct abortions should be outlawed. Indirect abortions are another matter all together and this is a point where I find pro choice and pro life advocated alike are totally confused.

            Do you know the difference between the two by chance?

          • lady_black

            Go kiss the Pope’s ring. That isn’t even the law in Italy. And there is no such thing as “direct” and “indirect” abortion. That’s just an excuse Catholics use to permit medical malpractice.

          • Tara

            You’re cute I must admit. You really have no clue.

          • goatini

            Flagged for advocating for rapists’ rights.

          • Shan

            “All direct abortions should be outlawed.”

            Gak. Why didn’t you say that in the first place so we could all just ignore you?

          • goatini

            S/h/it is a rape apologist and supporter of rapists’ rights.

          • Tara

            I suppose you can if you’d like. Doesn’t bother me! ;)

          • goatini

            Flagged for supporting rapists’ rights.

          • goatini

            Flagged for supporting rapists’ rights.

          • lady_black

            In response to your comment in moderation: No. I am NOT “cute.” I’m a nurse and old enough to be your mother, and have way more of a “clue” than you have about Catholic theology and it’s impact on the care of pregnant women. If it were within my power, I would shut down every hospital in the country that substitutes religious ideology for the best standard of care for pregnant women, or at least decertify them for maternity care. Just as an example, tubal pregnancy. They won’t allow treatment with methotrexate to end the doomed pregnancy and preserve the fertility of the woman, but they will allow invasive surgery to remove the entire tube, with the exact same result. The fetus dies, but you have punished the woman by mutilating her. That is medically comparable to recommending the amputation of an infected hand because you have ideological objections to administering an antibiotic. And I won’t even go into the abominable “care” given to miscarrying women. It can best be described as egregious malignant malpractice with evil intent. Your “direct and indirect abortion” bullshit results in the death, mutilation and mistreatment of real women. Shame on you. Do not address me again. You don’t pack the gear to debate me about medical issues.

          • Tara

            Little girl. I’m sorry you are unable to make the most basic of distinctions. Again I highly doubt you’re a nurse. I just can’t imagine someone as angry and bigoted as you can truly have a profession caring for other human beings.

            You really want to assert that surgery so similar to tubal ligations are mutilations? I agree when done with no medical reason, I.e. sterilization.

            Funny how countries such as Ireland, who have one of the tightest abortion restrictions anywhere and is rather religious, has such a low maternal and infant mortality. Its because the people working there do it because they care for people and aren’t trying to push their own dated political agenda.

            I will do my best to not address, or even read, comments made by you in the future. Quite frankly your ignorance is astounding.

          • lady_black

            Women in Ireland LEAVE to have abortions. We see what happens when leaving isn’t possible. As what happened to poor Savita Halappanavar. The difference between being told your fallopian tube must be removed when it really mustn’t, and tubal ligation is a matter of consent. I know that’s a difficult concept for you but that doesn’t mean you don’t have to try. I don’t care what you think. The Commonwealth of PA says I’m a nurse, and what you “think” means less than nothing to me. Your repeating that I’m “ignorant” only makes that so in your mind, and ONLY in your mind. Quite frankly, you demonstrate in every post that you do NOT “think” so you could have stopped right there. You demonstrate an incredible lack of capacity to think or learn when you fail to note the difference between the involuntary and unwanted mutilation of a woman by excising her fallopian tube, and the wanted, voluntary, and REVERSABLE tubal ligation. You are an ignorant and arrogant asshole, and seem quite proud of it. Go troll some other site, because nobody here buys into your Vatican Roulette preaching, nor your incorrect assertion that medically there is any such thing as direct and indirect abortion, or assertions that a diploid cell is in any way equal to a fully grown human woman.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There is absolutely no medical reason to remove the fallopian tube in the case of a ectopic pregnancy, unless it’s ruptured. Methotrexate is what’s best for the patient and it preserves her future fertility. Catholic hospitals put adherence to doctrine over what’s best for the patient.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You really want to assert that surgery so similar to tubal ligations are mutilations? I agree when done with no medical reason, I.e. sterilization.”

            Yes. There is no medical reason for damaging the tube to remove the embryo when another alternative is possible. Cutting off my toe when I have gangrene is not mutilation. Like a tubal litigation, it is necessary to reach a desired result in my body.

            Cutting off my toe for funsies when you could easily just trim my toenails is mutilation.

            See how that works, little girl, even though the procedures are “so similar”?

            Repeat: unnecessary surgery that damages a woman’s future reproductive ability is mutilation.

          • ansuz

            “You really want to assert that surgery so similar to tubal ligations are mutilations? I agree when done with no medical reason, I.e. sterilization.”
            Aaaaaah, no. Mutilation is a value judgment. Each individual is the only person who gets to make value judgments about hir own body. You do not have the standing to assert that someone else’s wanted sterilization procedure is mutilation. We do have the standing to assert that removal of the fallopian tube to end a tubal pregnancy might very well be mutilation, because it does far more damage to the person’s body than is necessary to accomplish the goal.

          • goatini

            Funny how countries like Ireland used to break women’s pelvises with a hacksaw so they wouldn’t miscarry or require a Caesarean section.

            http://jezebel.com/5960663/irish-doctors-used-to-break-womens-pelvises-so-they-wouldnt-miscarry/all

          • red_zone

            O_o…..
            …….

            Dear…

            …GOD…

          • lady_black

            Yeah I was on that thread, and didn’t see anything like that. I don’t even remember him being there.

          • VonRecklingHause

            I have no idea what thread you are talking about. So, yeah, you’re right, I wasn’t there.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Okay, you say you’re pro-choice. But I have to say that I have never seen you actually take the pro-choice side in any argument on this board. Ever. And as for these radical people you speak of, I also have to say that I’ve never met them here.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Then maybe you should reread my comment above.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No offense intended, but have you ever agreed with anything on this site? Because generally the people I’ve seen you side with on here are not the pro-choice people. And there have been disagreements between posters–we’re not all in lock-step either.

          • lady_black

            You got THAT right. I got into it with a few people over Plan C and menstrual extraction without pregnancy testing. I’m in favor of either.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Generally speaking, I don’t comment on things I agree with. What’s the point – unless I have something interesting to add.

            I do, however, comment on this site about things I don’t agree with the authors. I remember that 1st amendment issue with protester lines being one of them. I was harassed on that issue as well.

            I probably shouldn’t have even commented on this article. To be honest, the article was kind of boring. The comments were what drew me in.

          • Arekushieru

            1st amendment issue? If (big if, there, because I don’t know where to find the thread, therefore I have no idea what you actually said, but I can guess given the ‘context’ of what you have said, here) you believe that the protesters should have been granted space (wherein it is made illegal for anyone to remove them from those selfsame spaces) in which to practice their freedom of assembly or speech, you are not talking about the first amendment, sorry to say. Your freedom of assembly or speech has nothing to do with being granted a forum, space or platform in which to practice them. Also, if that IS the case, then by NOT granting the same space to every other group that has a less ability to access these spaces, the government IS abridging their rights to practice their freedom of speech and assembly. Hmm.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I remember that 1st amendment issue with protester lines being one of them. I was harassed on that issue as well.”
            You weren’t harassed, you were called out repeatedly for refusing to acknowledge arguments that addressed yours and for repeating the same talking points ad nauseam. You were not discussing honestly or in good faith.

          • goatini

            Ascribing fictional “personhood” to a zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus is NOT “pro-choice”.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Did I do that?

          • goatini

            YES, you most certainly did. Stop lying.

            //She doesn’t believe that it is possible to abort a “person” – only to abort a “fetus.” That way, she deflects any possible guilt she may feel supporting the abortion of a human fetus by declaring it a “clump of cells” or some other thing easily discarded.//

          • VonRecklingHause

            I was explaining YOUR rationale. Not mine.

            Context.

          • goatini

            The comment asserts that YOU think it IS possible to “abort a ‘person'”. Stop lying.

          • VonRecklingHause

            I think personhood begins at birth. An abortion is pre-birth.

            So, no.

          • goatini

            Dissembling troll is dissembling.

          • Arekushieru

            Context, look it up. You asserted a rationale that goatini NEVER MADE. Then used it in a manner that would put it in the worst possible light. THERE’S some ‘context’ for ya.

          • Arekushieru

            Then what about countries like Canada where Roe Vs Wade does not apply? Do these countries only exist in some mythical land in your head? Abortion is completely decriminalized, here (it’s my country, after all). However, the rates at which late-term abortions are performed in Canada are lower than in the US. Hm.

            Also, if people assert that, before viability, fetuses don’t deserve more rights than anyone born, therefore abortion should remain a decision entirely between her doctor and herself, but after viability assert that fetuses all of a sudden have FEWER rights than anyone born if abortion remains a decision entirely between her doctor and herself, that is disingenuous at BEST.

            If that is ideology, it is no more ideological than discussing why forced sex is rape.

            Although, I will admit, the my body, my choice slogan is rather out of touch when it comes to Gosnell’s ‘clinic’. After all, the women there were being coerced (and, yes, I am, indeed, disagreeing with some of my fellow Pro-Choicers, here, that coercion is purely a legal term) into having abortions performed by him.

            MOST women who have abortions were using some form of contraception. And, no, I will not provide any sources until you can provide the sources for the claims you made, first.

            Also, accessibility, it seems to be another new concept you need to learn. And, if you think contraception should be free, please do not assume that not accessing it requires any understanding from you, at all. That would be EXTREMELY egotistical of you, ESPECIALLY considering that you are male. Thanks.

          • Shan

            Think of “person” in legal terms.

          • lady_black

            I prefer “pro-choice” and “no choice.” Because where the rubber meets the road, that’s what we’re talking about, aren’t we?

          • goatini

            Not buying the false “guilt”, false “shame”, and false “blame” that vile radical misogynist forced-birthers try to push on innocent female US citizens freely exercising their civil. human and Constitutional rights to control their own destinies.

            Go troll somewhere else. Flagged for hate speech against female US citizens’ rights.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Guilt can exist after abortion – just like guilt after pregnancy. Get over it. It is completely normal and not something to be mocked by people like you.

          • goatini

            The vast majority of patients who have obtained safe, legal pregnancy terminations report RELIEF as what they feel. The vast majority of patients who have obtained safe, legal pregnancy terminations do NOT experience “guilt”, “blame”, or “shame”.

            The misery pimps who push FALSE “guilt”, FALSE “blame,” and FALSE “shame” upon innocent patients seeking to obtain, or who have obtained, safe and legal pregnancy terminations, are amoral exploiters who must be exposed at every opportunity.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Yes, I’m sure most feel relief because, otherwise, why have an abortion?

            But your shaming of the other women who do feel guilt is despicable. That’s their right to feel guilt and you mocking them is ridiculous

          • lady_black

            I would never mock anyone for feeling remorse. But I would make sure nobody is telling them they ought to feel guilt, and remind them that they made a decision that was the right decision under the circumstances, and this too shall pass.

          • goatini

            Calling out vicious, amoral misogynists who attempt to impose false “blame”, false “shame”, and false “guilt” upon innocent female US citizens who have availed themselves of their civil, human and Constitutional rights to obtain a safe, legal pregnancy termination doesn’t shame anyone, except the vicious, amoral misogynists.

          • expect_resistance

            Or relief can happen after an abortion. As in really happy to not be pregnant.

          • ansuz

            You mentioned below that you are pro-choice. Can I infer from that that you think ‘pro-abortion’ is an accurate label for your position?

          • goatini

            He’s not “pro-choice” in any way, he’s just a derailing troll.

          • ansuz

            I live in hope that people will present themselves honestly if I can just be earnest at them enough.

          • expect_resistance

            Sure like anti-choice is forced-birther. Semantic word games are always used by forced-birhter to oppress women. We know your game.

          • Arekushieru

            Wrong, you people are NOT anti-abortion. For the most part you OPPOSE contraceptives which would surely PREVENT more abortions than they would actually cause, if ANY, at all. We are NOT Pro-Abortion, as Pro-Abortion, taken in context with EITHER Pro-‘Life’, Pro-Choice OR Anti-Abortion means the support of FORCED abortion.

            I DO believe it is possible to ‘abort a person’, as does goatini. Defend myself from rape, I just ‘aborted a person’. If a fetus is equal in value to a woman, then calling it a clump of cells means that a woman is a clump of cells. And that is why YOU people have so much trouble with the term, because you don’t REALLY believe that a fetus is of the same value as a woman. Therefore, you’re left struggling with a question to which you don’t really know the answer. Oops.

          • goatini

            Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses are NOT persons, NOT citizens, and have NO rights.

          • fiona64

            Personhood is a *legal* status, which attaches at *birth.*

        • ansuz

          It has nothing to do with ‘having human nature’. If there is no mind, all value is externally imposed.
          Also, I’d find it perfectly ethical to abort even if fetuses were writing poetry and curing cancer.

        • http://www.awaypoint.wordpress.com Valerie Tarico

          Asserting it is so doesn’t make it so, even in the minds of abortion opponents.
          Do people name every fertilized egg and hold burial rituals for the 60% that self abort? No one does, and for very good reason. At some level we all acknowledge that the attributes of personhood, including sentience, preference, intention, the ability to feel pleasure and pain, self-aware existence, the ability to relate, the ability psychologically to have a past and a future–all of these exist as continua.

        • fiona64

          No, P2 is NOT a fact.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          Until those capacities actually exist, there can be no person – just an h.sapiens animal.

    • lady_black

      There is no “person” until I decide to make it out of my bones and blood. To me, the word “person” is a legal and philosophical term that fetuses just don’t fit into. Just as a dead body isn’t a “person” neither is a fetus, though both are humans. One was once a person, and one may some day be a person, if they’re lucky and nothing goes wrong.

      • Tara

        You make very good observations. A fetus, an adult human and a corpse are all identifiably human. I would argue, however, that there is a distinction you are failing to make. While each of the above examples share DNA in common only two are living and the third, the corpse, is now organic material and is neither human or living. It is no longer human because it does not possess any “potential” to do anything that human nature affords, I.e. move, speak, think, reproduce. In a few short weeks, given the right conditions the corpse will effectively be dirt.

        • lady_black

          A fetus is “alive” in the same sense as your arm is alive. Because a person is breathing for it, and a person’s heart and kidneys are circulating and filtering blood for it. How long will either one remain alive apart from that person?

        • Shan

          “In a few short weeks, given the right conditions the corpse will effectively be dirt.”

          In a few short weeks, given the right conditions, an embryo/fetus will become an infant. But it’s up to the woman who decides she’s going to do it to continue the conditions for that to happen.

          That’s the conversation this entire article is/should be about: I submit that it’s immoral to create and/or maintain conditions where women don’t have all the legal, logistical, medical choices available to them when it comes to deciding whether and when to create a new life.

          • Tara

            Shan. You are correct. Given time and nutrition the fetus will develop the added capacity that so many of its fellow humans already have. The ability to consume sustance through the digestive track rather than through the umbilical cord, thus transitioning from the fetal stage to the infancy stage of human development. We agree on that point.

            I also agree with your second paragraph as well.

            But I would say that you have that right only until the new human organism is created

          • Shan

            “But I would say that you have that right only until the new human organism is created”

            I would say that a new human organism is created at fertilization. But I don’t agree that that’s the point at which women should lose the legal right to decide whether or not they are willing to invest the physical, emotional, financial and spiritual resources necessary to gestate to term and give birth to it. Arguing that a fertilized egg should have legal rights that trump those of the woman whose body it’s in is illogical, impractical and ultimately immoral.

          • Tara

            I would not say a newly created human beings rights would trump the woman’s but that they are fundamentally equal. So a woman and the newly developing human organism should be treated in a similar manner… Insofar as such is reasonable and practical.

          • lady_black

            Oh, you MUST be shrooming. I’m more valuable than ANY zygote. I have a life, a family, an education, a profession and it hasn’t been easy getting here. How dare you compare my life to a blob of tissue the size of a jelly bean? How dare you compare the worth of ANY adult, tax-paying female citizen to that?

          • Shan

            “So a woman and the newly developing human organism should be treated in a similar manner… Insofar as such is reasonable and practical.”

            But it isn’t reasonable or practical to treat a newly-created human being in a similar manner to an already-existing woman.

          • Tara

            Why?

          • ansuz

            Because it’s inside of someone, and being inside of someone involves health risks to that person, as well as there being a potential for adverse psychological effects.

          • Shan

            “Why?”

            Come on. You claim to value rational arguments. From a legal perspective alone, it would be a nightmare. Surely you’re capable of seeing at least THAT much.

          • Tara

            That’s why I said when its reasonable and practical. Also part of the reason I cannot support person hood amendments.

          • fiona64

            Really? I’m sorry, is it not self-evident that a born, sapient, sentient woman is a person with rights under the law and that an embryo is NONE of those things?

          • Arekushieru

            And, if that’s REALLY the case, we already have that covered. After all, NO ONE BORN has the right to co-opt another human’s organs without the latter’s explicit, informed and ongoing consent, even IF they may die without the use of those organs. Therefore, it is ANTI-CHOICE that is attempting to grant a fetus more rights than anyone born, then attempting to conflate the fetal position with the maternal position and disingenuously claiming that they are being treated in the same manner.

          • fiona64

            I would not say a newly created human beings rights would trump the woman’s but that they are fundamentally equal.

            Except for one tiny problem … it is impossible for the rights of an embryo to be “fundamentally equal” to the born, sapient, sentient woman. So, your attempt to soften the “trump” of rights is ridiculous. You advocate for slavery, madame.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            They can’t be equal if you enslave the woman in service of the prenate.

          • goatini

            RIghts accrue to citizens at birth. Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses have NO rights.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Ok, this may not what you have intended by your comment, but

            Does a fetus at 39.9 weeks gestation have rights?

          • Shan

            “Does a fetus at 39.9 weeks gestation have rights?”

            Legally, yes.

          • lady_black

            That depends on whether it’s viable or not.

          • Arekushieru

            Whether it has rights or not is irrelevant. A fetus just simply does NOT get more rights than the woman who carries it. Btw, if a woman and fetus are of equal value, why is the women the one who carries it, and the fetus the one that is carried. Why can it not be the other way around, with all things being equal, of course? Oops? If a woman and fetus have equal value then why does a woman have to seek medical care for the fetus and why isn’t the fetus able to seek medical care for the woman?

          • fiona64

            Nope. Because even then something could go wrong.

          • lady_black

            Baloney. I’m not your slave. I have rights at ALL times, and don’t you forget that. My rights don’t end at sexual congress, fertilization or implantation.

          • lady_black

            The “digestive track?” Really? And I’m “ignorant.” That means so much coming from a font of medical knowledge like yourself.

          • fiona64

            But I would say that you have that right only until the new human organism is created

            So, after implantation, a woman is a slave. Okay then …

        • fiona64

          A fetus is not necessarily “identifiably human,” not matter what you say. All viviparous vertibrates carry fetii during pregnancy. And, I’ll bet the proverbial nickel that you cannot pick out the human embryo from amongst those of other viviparous vertebrates at similar stages of development:

          http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/embryo/embryoflash.html

          Your attempts to dehumanize women whilst affording rights to fetii are duly noted.

          Perhaps you can explain your eagerness to turn women into EasyBake Ovens — by which I mean pregnancy isn’t really a choice, it’s a woman’s job, just like the job of the EasyBake is to make tiny cakes.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          Potentiality is not actuality.

    • Tara

      Good night all. Was a good and spirited discussion.

      I know each of you believe you have woman’s best interest in mind and I admire the thoughtfulness of some of the members who were able to have the discussion without devolving into attacks.

      • goatini

        Advocating for the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to be violated, abrogated, and erased – and advocating to protect and elevate the rights of rapists to select, by violent felony sexual assault, the mother of their child – IS a depraved, verbally violent, abusive attack.

      • Shan

        “I know each of you believe you have woman’s best interest in mind”

        Ah, now I know what annoyed me about that last night. There’s an implied “but” in there.

        • Tara

          Well I do disagree with your conclusions but that doesn’t change the fact that you have these convictions because you care.

          • Shan

            Why do you have the convictions YOU do?

          • Tara

            Because I care. I’m interested in the good of the whole person. I want to know why someone is coming to their decision. If its all about affordability then let’s address that. If its medical let’s treat that. If its about perceived lack of ability let’s deal with that.

            The newly formed human is rarely the cause of the desire to be rid of it. Its all of these other circumstances that MIGHT happen.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Not wanting to be pregnant is a damn good reason. People have the right not to be violated in service of another.

          • Tara

            Since this comment was made without conditions I’ll make my own unconditioned comment.

            The fact that you acknowledge the other (irrespective of their legal status) shows that you acknowledge the existence of another living being and *I* say that you do not get to actively kill someone because they are depenent on you for their existence here and now. Whether a fetus, infant, someone advanced in years or disabled.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            You can kill anything that is invading your body be it embryo, 40 year old man or guinea worm.

            If they are inside your body without your consent you have the right to remove them.

          • Tara

            If invading such as rape yes, but a baby is there because it is natural to exist there and all organs are functioning properly.

            It is unlike a man, a virus or a cancer

          • Lieutenant Nun

            It is also natural for cancer, guinea worms and bacteria to be in your body. And if you want to evict the above you have that right.

            Naturalistic fallacy BTW. I suggest you stop using it if you don’t want to look like a dumbass who can’t debate her way out of a paper bag

          • Tara

            Cancer is a defect, a mutation, in the ordinary life cycle of cells. It is a natural occurrence that disrupts the ordinary function of a particular group of cells or organs. It is unlike pregnancy on several fronts including the reality that the body is functioning in a ordinary way.

            Your analogies are woefully inadequate for this discussion.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Death and cancer are perfectly natural. Natures way of culling the herd.

            Guinea worms even evolved alongside humans to live in our bodies. In fact, the lack of certain parasites and bacteria in our bodies can lead to certain inflammatory diseases.

            You are asserting that pregnancy is good and healthy simply because it is natural. This is the naturalistic fallacy.

          • Shan

            “It is unlike pregnancy on several fronts including the reality that the body is functioning in a ordinary way.”

            This along with your other comments implies that having an abortion is not natural. It is no less natural to induce an abortion medically than it is to induce a birth medically, or to perform an abortion surgically than to perform a Cesarean birth.

          • goatini

            Your intellect is woefully inadequate for this discussion.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/science/a-tumor-the-embryos-evil-twin.html?_r=0

          • Tara

            Ahhhh OK. I see where we’re diverging. No its not the naturalistic fallacy. When I say natural I do nott mean because it arises in nature. I mean because the purpose of the organ is this or that. The purpose of the uterus, its end, is to lay dormant when no child exists and be its shelter and source of nourishment when it does. This is its right and proper function. In the case of a foreign body, like a parasite, whether they evolve along side humans they still, by nature do not belong in the human body. The same can’t be said for a growing human being.

            Its the teleology arguments.

          • ansuz

            “I mean because the purpose of the organ is this or that.”

            The purpose of my organs is to allow me to live the life I want. End of story.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Bacteria and parasites that evolved alongside us definitely do belong in the human body. Natural = good. Especially if they aid our wellbeing.

            And the uterus may be able to house a zef but it belongs to the owner and she can evict any intruders.

          • Tara

            Parasites by their very definition don’t belong in the body. But your still glossing over very important distinctions. For one … Its not an intruder… Again by definition.

          • ansuz

            The only things that belong in my body are things that I want in my body.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Certain parasites do belong in the body. Recent studies have shown that the parasites that evolved alongside humans have helped to suppress auto immune diseases

            And the zef is an intruder if the uterus owner does not want it there.

          • Shan

            “The purpose of the uterus, its end, is to lay dormant when no child
            exists and be its shelter and source of nourishment when it does. This
            is its right and proper function.”

            *facepalm*

          • ansuz

            Every time someone uses that argument, I just want to go, ‘fuck you, I’m trans*. My uterus can go die in a fire.’

          • Shan

            ROFL! Yeah, I’m so done with mine, I could say the same thing.

            OMG, I’m still laughing…die in a fire…

          • Lieutenant Nun

            I fucken hate the uterus=nourishment meme. Because pregnancy is just like breastfeeding, only EASIER.

          • Shan

            Of course, because there is such a long history of uterus wet nurses, right?

          • ansuz

            I also hate the ‘You’re violating the bodily autonomy of the unborn baby girls!!ELEVENTY!!’ argument. If my killing my body means that your body dies, your body is not autonomous; you have no bodily autonomy.
            (ImTheNana is currently making it in the Hobby Lobby/Boycotts thread on LJF.)

          • Lieutenant Nun

            That person is incredibly arrogant. And utterly despicable. Am doing best to ignore.

          • ansuz

            I should (and I should go do homework and email people about jobs), but I suck so very much at doing what I should.

            On the bright side, I actually just applied for a job doing online tutoring for $20/h.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            20/h not bad !

            I should be asleep but I woke up in middle of night(

          • ansuz

            That sucks. My sleep schedule is out of whack again, so it’s about eight in the evening, for me (5 AM actual time).

          • goatini

            The “oneflesh” trollboi is persistent and verbose. He may not have an ADD diagnosis (as he asserted some time earlier on this board), but he has a friend who does, and who shares, based on his voluminous and prodigious output here.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            The oneflesh stuff is pretty revolting.

          • ansuz

            I despise this argument.

            ‘Natural’ is not relevant. Rape is bad because it amounts to psychological torture of the victim. Unwanted pregnancy is bad because it amounts to psychological torture of the pregnant person.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            I made the mistake of getting involved in another debate at SPL. Every rebuttal was some form of ” only pregnant people can be subjugated in the service of another because it is natural and what the uterus was made for”. Can’t even suggest that the father donate blood – because it is not natural. 100% of the responsibility for the pregnancy and all of the risks that it entails fall on the uterus owner’s shoulders. Because. Nature. And nature made uterus owners the *responsible* party.

            I pointed out to someone that I could easily argue the PL side using the above fallacies. He told me that I was not qualified to argue as a PL er. Meanwhile, I was in the middle of a debate with an idiot who not seconds later used the above arguments on me.

            They also can’t tell the difference between potential and actual. Apparently zygotes are like Transformers, and they are capable of sentience just like the giant robot can reconfigure itself into a car. The zygote is a rational creature all along, it just has to reconfigure to express its *latent sentience*.

            These people genuinely imagine themselves as sophisticated philosophers.

          • Shan

            ” they are capable of sentience just like the giant robot can reconfigure itself into a car.”

            Oh, well, shit. If I’d known that, I would have gone PG over and over and sold the cars for a profit! FUCK! So much for informed consent!

          • goatini

            Recent scientific studies show that an embryo and a cancerous tumor are very similar.

          • goatini

            “newly formed human”

            It’s a diploid cell. It may be a person someday, but the odds are against it even under the best, most favorable, and most wanted of circumstances.

    • Arekushieru

      Wrong, MOST Pro-Lifers regard the term fetus as dehumanizing. Just because you are ONE exception doesn’t make you any MORE than an exception.

      Btw, you have not made an argument. Whether a fetus is human or a person or BOTH is IRRELEVANT.

      Nice little dig at the Pro-Choice side (without even going into the dehumanization of women that you are attempting to achieve bit by bit) then congratulating those who didn’t take offense at them, as if you can’t even THINK about taking responsibility for what you say. After all, ‘responsibility’ is the byword for the MAJORITY of Pro-Lifers.

    • fiona64

      Sorry, your syllogism fails. Personhood is a legal status, not a medical one. Your P2 is in error.

      BTW, the correct term is not “baby”; it’s infant.

    • Lieutenant Nun

      Not all humans are persons. Persons have minds. Zef’s are mindless animal organisms.

      • Melinda Hampton

        What is a Zef?

        (answer: I know because of google, i just wasn’t sure other people were.)

        • Lieutenant Nun

          Zygote embryo fetus.

          • goatini

            Which troll was “Hampton” again? S/he/it thinks we’ve forgotten.

          • lady_black

            I haven’t forgotten.

  • Tracey

    “Every baby should have its toes kissed. If life is precious and helping our children to flourish is one of the most precious obligations we take on in life, then being able to stop an ill-conceived gestation is a sacred gift.” You’re right… every baby deserves to have his/her toes kissed! There are many people would love to adopt the baby and kiss his/her toes! It seems this would truly help the baby flourish vs. chopping up its toes. Based on this article, the value of the child is based on the worth the mother gives it. If she’s happy about the baby, then the baby has value. If she’s not happy with the baby, the fetus has no value. The fulfillment of this philosophy sends you down a very scary path…

    • goatini

      Women with unwanted pregnancies are not public baby ovens to be exploited by vicious selfish barren vultures.

      • expect_resistance

        I love your writing. “Public baby ovens.” Sounds like a sci-fi novel.

        • goatini

          I think I have “The Handmaid’s Tale” memorized, and that’s exactly what the handmaids were – public baby ovens.

    • lady_black

      No it does not send anyone down a scary path. Women with unwanted pregnancies aren’t public baby ovens for adoptive couples. If they want a child, adopt a child. Half a million are waiting for homes and families.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Histrionic language about toe-chopping aside, no one is obligated to carry a pregnancy just because someone wants to adopt a baby. Over 100,000 children languishing in foster care right now and the state will help with the costs. Adopt them.

      • Tracey

        I’m looking at it more from what is best for the baby growing inside of you… what is the obligation to the baby, not the obligation to the adoptive couple. If you want what is best for the baby, give it love. And there are plenty of people who would gladly do that.

        • lady_black

          That’s easy! There IS no “obligation” to a fetus.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Sweetie, I’m not pregnant. And if I were, what’s inside of me is my concern. Not yours.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s funny how they phrase their statement to assume we are pregnant. Like all women are pregnant. *eyeroll*

          • Shan

            You never know. In some states, I’m already pregnant even though I haven’t had sex this week.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I guess they’re thinking that this is their chance to do what they call ‘counseling’–which as we all know isn’t really counseling at all.

          • http://batman-news.com Mummel18000

            If they had it their way, all women would be either constantly pregnant, or dead from back alley abortions.

          • goatini

            What they want is to legislate that all females between menarche and menopause should have no rights and should be property of the (theocratic) State.

        • goatini

          All babies, ever, have already been born. No babies have ever been harmed in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. Stop making up illogical specious nonsense to defend your vile misogyny.

          Women with unwanted pregnancies are not livestock to be exploited in gestational slavery against their will, so that greedy barren vultures can enrich the global human trafficking adoption syndicate to the tune of five figures.

          Go take your misogynistic slavery and human traffic garbage elsewhere.

          • lady_black

            “Tracey” is probably Bode Miller or his pig wife.

          • goatini

            She’s unbalanced enough to be a net troll.

          • red_zone

            Another thing these people fail to realize; their attitudes directly contribute to things like child brides. Attitudes like theirs are the reason girls as young a 8 YEARS OLD are married off to older men and forced to comply to their husbands. Too often, these girls are injured and can even die from their injuries. When they become pregnant, it puts a strain on their bodies and then those girls die, too. because their bodies were not developed enough to handle a pregnancy.

            Childbirth is the number one killer of girls between the ages of 15-19. girls are forced to abandon any education-or hopes for it-tin order to marry and have children because it’s what society and culture dictates. Without ANY CONSIDERATION for THEIR wishes and personal well-being. Every single country where this happens suffers for denying it’s women autonomy.

            By restricting and even REMOVING women’s options, by denying them access to services where they can make the choice for THEMSELVES on whether or not they want to carry a pregnancy or not, we create situations where women are effectively helpless and at the mercy of the system. One that has shown, time and again, to care nothing for them as human beings.

            There is nothing ‘pro-life’ about being denied your freedom to choose your own fate.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            So a second before birth, there was something living in my womb. What was it?
            How did it magically change when the doctor cut the uterus open to deliver her?
            Its a baby.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, apparently you weren’t having a pregnancy. So, who knows?

          • Jennifer Starr

            And here I thought you were going to tell me it was a dalek.

          • red_zone

            Tell me…. how much easier is it to defend a fetus than it is to defend a living, breathing 7 year-old child who is in foster care and will likely remain so because people don’t want to adopt him because he’s no longer a baby they can play house with?

          • ansuz

            Baby=value judgment. Value judgments are subjective. You do not have the standing to make moral judgments about anybody else’s pregnancy. Once it’s born, the (formerly) pregnant person no longer has sole jurisdiction.

          • Arekushieru

            It was a fetus. Are you a corpse? No, thought not.

        • Shan

          “I’m looking at it more from what is best for the baby growing inside of you…”

          That’s not your job. That’s only the job of the one with the baby growing inside.

          • Tracey

            Shan – so you acknowledge it is a baby? A baby is a person, so yes, therefore, the public (me) has a right and a duty to preserve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” for all people.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You think you’re in charge of other people’s pregnancies? I have no words now.

          • Ella Warnock

            I don’t even know how any of these people think they’d ever be aware of some stranger’s pregnancy. Especially if it’s a woman with resources who can pay for safe and discrete abortion care. They seem to believe restriction or illegality will deter middle class and wealthy women with resources.

            Unless there’s a whole new layer of infrastructure built (let’s just call it FAB, Fertility Awareness Bureau), which would be a total denial of personal privacy, I just don’t see any influence over those who can pay for what they want.

            As usual, unfortunately, poorer women pay the price that anti-choicers had intended the privileged, egalitarian demographic to pay in their stead. As if that were even possible.

          • lady_black

            Oh they don’t care about knowledge. They use a shotgun approach, standing outside family planning clinics and screaming at anyone who walks through the door, regardless of the fact that they have no idea (and CAN have no idea) why a woman is walking in the door. I swear if some nut bag started screaming in my face as I was attempting to enter my doctor’s office, I would empty a container of pepper spray directly in their stupid face. Who do these people think they are to stand between women and the medical care they need?

          • red_zone

            Because they want to feel they’re doing something. They feel helpless, so they devote their time to focusing on who they view as the most helpless; a zygote.

            They protect a fetus because it has no face; it’s easier to protect them and act on the behalf of a fetus rather than on behalf of the many thousands of children that live in foster care. They want an ‘easy out’ to avoid really feeling any actual empathy for the child living, breathing, feeling in front of them and direct all that energy into vilifying a woman and forcing her to carry a pregnancy she never wanted to term just so THEY can feel a sense of ‘accomplishment’ and ‘get a pat on the back’ and have their deed acknowledged.

            They do it because they can’t bring themselves to looking into the faces of the children we have now and turn their backs on them because it’s all about how THEY feel.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Perfectly stated. Thank you.

          • fiona64

            ^^^ This, x infinity. A fetus is a cypher that they can get all hopped up over, while ignoring the reality of actual born, sapient, sentient children in need of homes.

          • Deesse de la lune

            This. So much this.

            Very well put

          • http://batman-news.com Mummel18000

            “Pro lifers” think they are. They think they are the warriors of god against evil women. And the ultimate evil a woman can do them, is to be independent. “Pro life” is a stain on humanity

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Its a baby not a pregnancy. Euphemisms do not alter the truth.

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s *not* a pregnancy. Okay. Well, then, if it’s not a pregnancy, it must not be an abortion either.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you think you’re in charge of what is inside someone else’s uterus?

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion terminates a pregnancy. That’s it, that’s all. The fact that a fetus dies due to incompatibility with life upon separation from the uterus, is not the woman’s responsibility, and making it such would simply be another example of your misogyny.

          • goatini

            Now pregnancy is a euphemism? Man, these self-proclaimed amateur gynecologists, embryologists, and theologians are running out of nonsense to peddle.

          • lady_black

            She might think it’s a baby. It isn’t. All babies, ever, have already been born.

          • goatini

            All babies, everywhere, have all been born.

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth.

            And the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment protects the privacy of patients. Get lost.

          • Shan

            “so you acknowledge it is a baby?”

            No. It’s only a baby to the woman who has decided to gestate and give birth it. The public (you) have no right or duty to preserve it that doesn’t start first and foremost with the woman’s determination of what her own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is about.

          • expect_resistance

            No not a baby. Sounds like you don’t understand basic biology.

          • fiona64

            A fetus is not an infant. Yes, an infant is a person … a born entity. Personhood is a legal status, not a medical one.

            You do NOT have the right to demand that any woman other than yourself gestate a pregnancy, dearie.

          • Arekushieru

            You oppose the pursuit of happiness and life and liberty for women, so how does that ‘all people’ thing work, again?

        • expect_resistance

          There is no obligation to a fetus. And there is no “baby growing inside me.” If I was pregnant it’s none of your damn business.

        • fiona64

          A fetus is not an infant … and, as already cited, there are quite obviously not “plenty of people” out there looking to adopt, or there would not be 100K kids available for adoption.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          What is best in many cases is not being born.

    • red_zone

      Adoption is not a realistic or viable option in every single case. It’s an alternative for parenting, NOT pregnancy, which can devastate a woman’s body.

      Keeping a woman pregnant against her wishes for YOUR own comfort is downright selfish. At least the woman who finds herself pregnant is actually thinking about the big picture.

    • fiona64

      There are many people would love to adopt the baby and kiss his/her toes!

      Liar.

      Why do I say that? Because there are 100K children in foster care in the US *alone* for whom the plan is adoption (as opposed to repatriation to family, etc.). Most of those kids will “age out” of the system at 18 years old without ever having been adopted. If there were really “many people who would love to adopt,” none of those kids would be waiting.

      So, I call you out as a liar.

    • Lieutenant Nun

      Adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy.

  • indianfeminist101

    Great article. There has been a kind of earthy wisdom for years about ‘choos’ing parenthood which has, I think, a better emotional resonance than just ‘reproductive choice’. I don’t mean to denigrate the term, not at all, but I think ‘choosing parenthood’ is not as much prevalent in popular discourse as it should be. ( I might be wrong.) The act of abortion acknowledges a person’s inability/ unwillingness to take up this huge responsibility and the choice, thus stems from one’s conscience. The pro-life lobby has owned words like ‘love’ precisely because we somewhere need to pick up on ‘ the love every child ‘ narrative in a more appealing manner.

  • Robin Bass

    Unfortunately an article like this needs to be printed and shared over and over. I, too have been saying this (although, not as thoroughly and not as well) for a long time. I believe that once we allowed the anti abortion side to call themselves ‘pro-life’ and we, too called them that way back in the 1970’s, we, by default became ‘anti-life’ and went on the defensive ever since. I remember, as part of the abortion rights movement back then, trying to come up with a catch word, and we came up with ‘pro-choice’…which we are. But, in the public relations battle over the years, we lost as the religious right took that phrase and used it agains us…’an unborn baby has no choice’..and slowly buy surely…we became more and more defensive…and lost more and more ground. This article, as many lately have begun to take back the moral ground of abortions. They are not immoral, and women who have them are not baby killers. I am, as one of the elders of the abortion rights battle, so gratified to see us getting back to reclaiming the word abortion…I never liked being pro choice…I was always pro abortion and I’m glad that we have begun to see that we need to stand our ground if we are to keep abortions legal and safe for women in this and future generations.

    • LeticiaVelasquez

      Supporting the dismembering of babies isn’t as fun as it used to be, eh, Robin?

      • Robin Bass

        Not a problem for me..since abortion isn’t “the dismembering of babies” like you want to portray it.

        • LeticiaVelasquez

          That’s right, sometimes they are sucked into a blender, have their skin burned off by saline injection, or are born early and are left to gasp their last breaths on a soiled utility table.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Your facts came from the fruit loop box didnt they

          • Robin Bass

            I was going to say the same thing

          • Robin Bass

            You have been fed such sad misinformation but I’m sure I’ll never convince you of the realities of what an early abortion really is.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Go to the link they deleted above, Hispanics for Life video La Dura Realidad, the Hard Truth to see the truth about what abortion is. If you care about the truth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Most posts with links go into moderation and don’t get posted. It’s nothing personal.

          • ansuz

            I watch lots of surgery videos, including abortion videos. I’m perfectly comfortable with abortion.

          • gratiaplena

            “I’m perfectly comfortable with abortion”. Good, ansuz. Glad you’re comfortable with a procedure that kills another person. Do you think that the baby being mutilated and dismembered is “perfectly comfortable with abortion”?

            How repugnant that everyone who is “pro-choice” has already been born.

            A great saint once told a famous actress, “Madame, the stench of your soul makes me vomit”.

          • ansuz

            “How repugnant that everyone who is “pro-choice” has already been born.”
            My mom seriously considered aborting me and went to some trouble to ensure that she would be able to terminate at any point if she felt that she couldn’t handle the pregnancy. I am happy about this; I like knowing that she didn’t experience any harm that she was not okay with, and that I was her choice. I think that everyone should have the same options she did.

            EDIT: Also, I’m not any kind of madame. Gender’s wrong.

          • red_zone

            It’s something that some people fail to take into consideration; your mother made the choice to have you. Which tells anyone reading this that she wanted you.

            If you have to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth… what kind of precedence does that set? It is never wise to assume that the woman will want the baby when it’s born; if you forced her, then who do you think she’s going to resent?

            While that may not sound fair, the same can’t be said for taking away that woman’s power and decision-making.

          • ansuz

            Exactly. Also, growing up, I got to see the contrast between my mother and my the mother of one of my best friends. This person was pressured into keeping the pregnancy, and blamed everything that was wrong with her life on my friend, to her face and in public.

            (Also, there’s some evidence that having lots of stress hormones — like, say, the ones that someone who is pregnant and and feeling violated by it might have — during gestation contributes to mood disorders later in life. I shudder to think how much worse my mental health would be if my mother had been forced to keep me.)

          • red_zone

            How truly sad for your friend. And, in a way, for their mother. Her behavior towards them was certainly wrong, but…

            That actually makes a lot of sense, when you think about it.

          • ansuz

            Yeah. Her mother never had the best mental health to begin with, but that really didn’t help.
            My friend is, fortunately, doing quite well right now. She’s just finishing up her undergrad degree, is active in a whole bunch of charities, and keeps an eye on her younger siblings.

          • red_zone

            Sounds like she turned out all right. :thumbs up:

          • ansuz

            Yep :) She’s great. Gets lots of therapy for the damage her mom did, though.

          • red_zone

            Hope it helps.

          • red_zone

            IF you bothered to check the link in the article and click it, It shows pictures of what a first-term abortion REALLY looks like.

            NO dismemberment. NO mutilation. Nothing to suggest a human at all.

            One could say the same about YOU, given that you don’t seem to be this adamant for the children who are living NOW.

          • gratiaplena

            And exactly WHAT do you base your accusation of my not caring for living children????

            As for first term abortions: of course a human being at 2 months doesn’t look like a human being at 9 months. How many 80 year olds look like they did when they were 5? Very irrelevant and erroneous argument. The SAME human being exists at conception, as he/she does at 90 years of age. DUH.

          • red_zone

            Well, what are you DOING for those children who are living here and now in our foster care system? How are you helping THEM?

            My point is, if you’re going to make claims, then have the good sense to back them up with evidence. There is NOT ‘human’ at conception. It is a zygote, with the potential to be human and not every zygote makes it to full term.

          • Arekushieru

            If you do support the existing children, then you are in a MINORITY of the Pro-Life movement. So sorry. And, as Red Zone indicated, you should be immediately clarifying what you are doing to help existing children, if you want to make ANY point about fetuses and abortion, adoption, personhood, etc….

            And, seriously, reading comprehension, PLEASE, just for once, antis. We were talking about your claim that fetuses are dismembered by abortion. Oi.

          • Ella Warnock

            Of course I’m not the same person I was at conception. DNA? Yeah. The person I am now did not **exist** at conception. DUH, and all that.

          • goatini

            The fact that you sit around all day on a damn keyboard, fapping to the thrill of your made-up sadistic “God” torturing innocent truth-tellers in the eternal Lake of Fire, would be a pretty sure tipoff that you and your kind care naught for any actual born and living child in need.

          • gratiaplena

            Yeah, that’s why I’ve been in neonatology since 1970, because don’t care about any actual born, living children.

          • goatini

            To quote Dorothy Parker, “And I am Marie of Romania”.

          • Ella Warnock

            Great saint, huh? Apparently not great enough to avoid s!ut shaming random actresses to puff up his/her own sense of piety.

          • goatini

            The Catholics traditionally excel at slut-shaming to enhance their own putrid “piety”.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, it is SO sad that you need help with defining the word ‘choice’. I am here precisely BECAUSE my mother is Pro-CHOICE. AW.

            A fetus is not a person and abortion doesn’t kill.

            And, yes, the stench of YOUR ‘soul’ does make me vomit.

          • ansuz

            I also can’t find any source for that quote. At whom was it directed?

          • gratiaplena

            St. John Marie Vianney

          • ansuz

            I just found out from clicking through to the Wikipedia entry on St. Philomena from his page that there is a St. Damien of Molokai. This is possibly the best name for a saint that I’ve ever seen. It’s awesome.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh yeah, he was the leper colony priest. I did a research paper on him years ago. Fascinating man.

          • ansuz

            Cool! I don’t actually know anything about him, it just sounds like a demonic name to me and I like the irony.

          • Jennifer Starr

            John doesn’t sound like a very pleasant person, somehow.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            My Mother had an abortion because of financial hardship when it was illegal. She and my Dad decided three of us was all they could handle. We were 14, 12 and 10. My Mom could have died. I know a past President of NJ NOW whose Mother died of illegal abortion when she was 9 years old.

            Do not us my Catholic Mother to slutshame women you do not even know.

            Mom was 37, working full time and doing IBEW work. Dad was intermittently crippled with a congenital form of arthritis. Another pregnancy would have been a serious social, financial and physical disruption for her and for our family. Most women who get an abortion already have children.

            It is despicable to compel folks to give birth to children they cannot afford and/or do not want BY LAW. It is Nazi stuff.

            If you are one of the “prolife” activists, I have questions for you.

            My body and its contents belongs to (pick one):
            1. You.
            2. the State.
            3. Me and my family.

            My children belong with and to:
            1. You.
            2. the State.
            3. Me and my family.

            I look forward to your answers. I will tell you something right now. You ghouls will not turn me and my daughters into baby farmed corpses like poor Mrs. Munoz. We vote.

          • goatini

            S/he who smelt it, dealt it.

          • Ella Warnock

            Wonder what the stench of self-righteous, narcissistic piety smells like?

            Oh, like trolls. Obvious answer is obvious.

          • goatini

            You don’t speak for all Hispanic women.

          • Robin Bass

            Based on your religious beliefs you experience abortion as murder. It’s hard for you to understand that there is any other way to see it. The problem is that it is your belief..and that doesn’t make it a reality. I come from a different religious belief that does not see life beginning at the moment of conception, and therefore abortion, especially in the early stages,is not murder. It does not go against god’s law in my religion and is not immoral. In fact, in many cases, it can be a more moral choice than bringing an unplanned, unwanted child into the world. I know that from your religious perspective that’s hard, if not impossible to understand, but from my religious belief, it’s a moral position that is supported by my religious leaders, and biblically sound.

          • red_zone

            That’s not truth, kid. That’s propaganda to feed people hungry enough to swallow it.

            And YOU want to believe whatever makes it easier for you to avoid thinking a bout all those grey areas that we enter into.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And next on ‘Histrionics Daily’…..

          • Shan

            Holy shit, you really have been drinking the Lila Rose kool-aid.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A blender?? What the hell? You are aware of the fact that 90% of abortions happen during the first trimester, right?

          • lady_black

            Make mine a Margarita! Since the blender’s already warmed up.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I love margaritas :)

          • lady_black

            Me too. My favorite.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            What do you think a suction abortion ends up looking like? Tiny hands and feet in a blender of blood. A person’s a person no matter how small.

          • goatini

            While Theodore Geisel was still alive, he threatened to sue a pro-life group unless they removed his words from their letterhead. Karl ZoBell, the attorney for Geisel’s interests, says the author’s widow doesn’t like people to “hijack Dr. Seuss characters or material to front their own points of view.”

          • red_zone

            Really? Wow, I didn’t know that.

          • Arekushieru

            Yup. Someone else told me about that, but you could have coloured me very unsurprised!

          • red_zone

            I would have LOVED to talk to this guy for a few minutes.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So, I take it that you don’t want a maragarita?

          • Ella Warnock

            Now, Jennifer, where’s your HUMANITY?

            Oh, that’s right, it’s in your DNA. Carry on.

          • Arekushieru

            So why is it most miscarriages never look like that?

          • red_zone

            Actually, if you bothered to look at the pictures posted in the article above, you would see an abortion looks NOTHING like that. Certainly not a first term abortion.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Where are the hands and feet? See the diameter of the suction hose? No room for hands and feet.
            http://www.thisismyabortion.com/
            http://www.visualphotos.com/image/1×6552301/manual_vacuum_aspiration_abortion_equipment

          • expect_resistance

            More abortion porn and another failure of reality.

          • BJ Survivor

            Honey, the homunculus theory of development was discredited over 100 years ago. In a suction abortion, the embryonic sac is expelled whole; it’s how they know the abortion was successful. At most, there are limb buds, but nothing that can really be torn off, since the conceptus is less than an inch long.

          • lady_black

            Nope.

          • goatini

            I could almost hear the heavy breathing while you rubbed that one out. Was it good for you? Want a cigarette?

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            So sad that your humanity has been lost. You laugh at murder. God does not laugh at murder but the salvation of your souls is His desire. And mine. God loves you.

          • goatini

            Get off the cross, someone else needs the wood.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s awesome. You crack me up. :))))))))

          • Ella Warnock

            Humanity lost? Huh? Wait a minute, goatini has DNA. HUMAN DNA!! Bu . . . but . . . she’s NOT human??!11!eleventy!!1?
            Oy, I’m tellin’ ya, these antis are so confoozing today.

          • red_zone

            Who are YOU to arrogantly claim that anyone has ‘lost their humanity’ when what you want would keep women in states of perpetual vulnerability and at the mercy of a system that doesn’t care?

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion isn’t murder, sweetie. God does not laugh at misogynists, like yourself, but the salvation of your soul IS His desire.

          • gratiaplena

            Abortion is the intentional termination of a human life without the consent of the victim. This is the classic definition of MURDER.

          • ansuz

            Actually, it’s the ejection of a maybe-person from the body of a person. The fact that the fetus dies is kinda beside the point. I just want it out of my body.

          • red_zone

            No, it’s not. It’s just you pushing your preconceived notions and personal beliefs and holding them to the same context. They are not.

          • Arekushieru

            Then killing your rapist is murder. So sorry, but I have yet to see any legal definition that automatically classifies that as murder. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Pregnancy =/= fetus. If it DID, some animals would not be able to have a fetus present without being pregnant. SO sorry.

          • Robin Bass

            but a fetus is not a human life yet….so it is NOT murder. Many, many pregnancies are not intended, by god, if you believe, or nature to come to term…that’s why so many end in miscarriage…and if you see what a miscarriage is…it’s not a ‘little full term person’…it’s a red blob that usually ends up in the toilet.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s the termination of a pregnancy not murder.

          • gratiaplena

            There are none so blind as those who will not see. I posted the website of abortion videos but the fanatics on this website prefer to suppress the hideous, bloody truth that abortion KILLS PEOPLE, and refused to post my comment.

            Oh, well. God will enlighten all of you willfully blind abortion-philes in HIs own good time. I tried to tell you the truth, but you prefer to believe Satan, “a liar, the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning” (Jesus Christ).

          • Lieutenant Nun

            I have seen many abortion videos. I remain unmoved.

          • gratiaplena

            What a bone-chilling comment. You have seen human children mutilated, dismembered, shredded, bloodied, mangled literally TO DEATH and “remain unmoved”? The image of God in you has been obliterated and replaced by the evil one, the one to whom the pagans placed their children on the altar to be burned in sacrifice: the diabolical god Moloch. Utterly demonic are your words of incomprehensible, heartless cruelty.

            How empty and devoid of compassion and love and mercy you are. No wonder Jesus suffered so much in His Passion. The murdered unborn are nailed to the Cross with Jesus, where you have placed them–and Him.

            May God have mercy on your twisted soul. You are in grave danger of an eternity of suffering and regret.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Mindless animal organisms that assault and violate the bodies of unwilling pregnant people. People who can actually suffer. I cant feel anything for a mindless clump of tissue.

          • gratiaplena

            You will, someday, my dear. You will. God will see to it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And when you’re done playing the almighty’s self-appointed spokesperson, you just might be able to squeeze enough air out of your head to make it through the front door.

          • Shan

            She’s SUCH a good girl. I wonder what bad thing she did in the past that she’s trying to make up for now by vilifying pretty much every other woman on the planet.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Citation needed from a peer reviewed source.

          • goatini

            We know you enjoy making women suffer unnecessarily, because the “God” you make up is just as depraved as you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You fantasize about this quite a lot, don’t you?

          • goatini

            Did the earth move for you, fetus fetish fapper? Want a cigarette? How about Jesus, does he want one too?

          • red_zone

            Because the majority of abortions take place in the first term, what you described is patently false. And if you click on the link in the article above, it shows this in pictures.

            You are arrogant to think that you have all the answers. You do not. Worse, that you assume that every poster here should be compelled to follow the god YOU CLAIM to follow.

            I do not. I walk with the Great Goddess and God. Life is a continuous cycle of life and death. They frown on forcing one’s will onto another being as you would force onto women. It is especially abhorrent in cases of pregnancy where it is unwanted. Such a thing rarely ends well.

            I suggest you reconsider speaking here again if all your going to do is throw insults and make judgements based on what YOU believe.

          • gratiaplena

            And you and your fellow atheist pro-baby murder abortion-philes DON”T judge??????? LOL!!! Judgementalism drips from your mouths like poison from an adder.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Needs more hysterics and punctuation, if you don’t mind. Though ‘atheist pro-baby murder abortion-philes’ would be an interesting name for a band….

          • ansuz

            I kind of want to up-vote this for sheer entertainment value. Thanks for the laugh.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            This is what an abortion prior to 8 weeks looks like dumbfuck:

            http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

          • ansuz

            Only people who post here regularly are allowed to post links. My posts with links still go straight into the spam filter; it’s nothing personal.
            Just FYI, though, the videos you were going to post? Probably not real. I’ve seen real abortion videos. They’re way less gruesome than open heart surgery videos.

          • fiona64

            Really, could you keep your sexual fantasies to yourself?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Don’t take it personally. Links don’t usually get through moderation.

          • expect_resistance

            I am enlightened and I don’t believe in your sky god. Satan is a man-made concept which I don’t believe in.

          • gratiaplena

            You will when you meet him face to face.

          • ansuz

            Most likely, when you die, nothing will happen. You will have no awareness; you will have ceased to exist.

          • expect_resistance

            No, I don’t want to meet your sky god. Please keep your religious crap to yourself.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            God has a dick? I spend time with God. We have daily conversations. Somehow God has never found it necessary to show me its genitals.

          • goatini

            More masturbatory fantasies of fetus fap porn, and of their “loving” God doing Clockwork Orange-style ultra-violence on the truth-tellers.

          • Ella Warnock

            My introduction to all things violent, hideous, and bloody was none other than the Good Book its own self. That was where I learned that cruelty is the greatest power the living, loving god has.

            Of course, if that’s the deadliest weapon in your arsenal, one has to wonder how powerful you really are.

          • red_zone

            And chances are, those abortion videos are entirely STAGED. But you believe them because they make you feel ‘righteous’ and ‘moral’ and ‘justified’ in your position.

            Because it’s really all about you.

          • fiona64

            No, sweetie. Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

            Abortion is a legal medical procedure … so you fail on that alone. An embryo is not a person, so you fail again.

          • Arekushieru

            Murder is also a legal term, btw, that means UNLAWFUL *killing* with M.A.L.I.C.E. AfOrEtHoUgHt. Abortion falls under NONE of those criteria. Oopsies.

          • expect_resistance

            Her “humanity has been lost.” Are you for real? Because she doesn’t want to force women to give birth. She’s opposed to forcing all pregnancies to end in a live birth? I don’t see forced-birthers as humane.

          • Ineedacoffee

            My rainbow pooping unicorn loves you too and hope that one day you see sense

          • red_zone

            …. what?

            And you BELIEVED that?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            More fetus porn. Lucky us. It gave up “reason” – because it did not work – so now it will try skeeving us as argument.

          • expect_resistance

            That is completely and utterly false. You have no idea what an medical abortion procedure is. You also do not grasp that the vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester.

          • fiona64

            You have some pretty sick masturbatory fantasies there, lady …

      • Ineedacoffee

        Dismembering babies is illegal and if you know anyone who is, call the police
        Aborting a fetus is NOT that

      • Jennifer Starr

        No one’s talking about ‘dismembering babies’.

        • LeticiaVelasquez

          So they are baby whats? Seals? Tulips? Elephants?
          Baby humans are humans.

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion does not, generally speaking, dismember, since the fetus has no members TO speak of.

            To quote goatini: All babies, everywhere, have already been born.

        • expect_resistance

          *head desk* on this one.

      • Ella Warnock

        When was it ever “fun?” Jebus, you’ve gotta wonder what this one’s definition of fun is.

        • Jennifer Starr

          From reading an earlier post of hers, I’m gathering she gets off on suffering and martyrdom.

          • Ella Warnock

            Those two are more powerful drugs than meth and heroin ever thought about being. People chase those highs with every bit the single-mindedness that any addict does.

        • Robin Bass

          she was talking about the earlier days of the abortion movement before the anti’s took over with their rabid ‘pro-life’ bullshit that have made getting an abortion so much more difficult

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Oooh look, Perverina brought “her” fetus porn for show-and-tell. What no link to putrefying stillbirths for us?

      • fiona64

        If you know of anyone dismembering babies, contact the police at once.

  • Libby Reale

    And forcing a woman to go thru the ordeal of pregnancy and childbirth is never a loving thing to do either. Anti-choicers couldn’t care less about that, though.

    • LeticiaVelasquez

      You are assuming abortion is not an ordeal, Silent No More women disagree, they say abortion destroyed their lives.

      • Libby Reale

        Abortion is WAY less of an ordeal than childbirth. .. Your paid shills notwithstanding.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I offer Buddha’s cure for their whining “Think about other things.” A pregnancy made many ruins in my life.

      • goatini

        “SNM”, misery pimps and leeches for tax-free donation dough, selling nothing but false blame, false shame, and false guilt to innocent female US citizens simply exercising their civil, human and Constitutional rights. Take your un-American hate speech filth back to Lie Shite Spews.

  • Lieutenant Nun

    It is immoral to have more children if the extra offspring will hamper your ability to care for existing children. More is not always better..

    • Shan

      And sometimes later is better. So is never.

      • LeticiaVelasquez

        That is why adoption is such a blessing. Millions of infertile couples wait for your unwanted baby.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Over 100,000 children currently languishing in foster care and the state will help with the cost. Are these couples waiting for an engraved invitation? Because no one’s obligated to carry a baby just for them.

        • red_zone

          They want to adopt HEALTHY BABIES. Not the children who need medical care and have mental issues, which is most of them.

          • gratiaplena

            What are YOU doing for them right now, redzone?

          • Jennifer Starr

            We asked you first.

          • Shan

            Nothing to create more of them in the first place.

          • red_zone

            I am helping my sister raise her three, her oldest one has Autism. I do what I can, when I’m able. but i love these children who are here with me now.

            What are YOU doing for those children in need? Who have no home, no family to love them? Who will likely age out of the system?

          • Kathi J

            Let’s be really accurate: healthy, WHITE babies.

        • ansuz

          Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not an alternative to pregnancy.
          Pregnancy is hard work, and hard on the body; it is not for everyone.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          No thank you. My body and its contents belong to me and my family. I would never give birth and abandon the born child to strangers. Someone who acts like you might get the child. Abortion while it is still a clot is preferable.

          • gratiaplena

            @Plum: You must have NEVER taken so much as a 5th grade science class. “Clot”???? You ought to be embarrassed at your pathetic ignorance of biology and physiology.

            The “clot” you refer to is comprised of billions of highly-specified cells, proliferating at such a speed that the four chambers of the heart are in place and beating BY DAY 18 after conception. The central nervous system is in place by 6 weeks…when the tiny human being is barely visible by the human eye.

            So you’re so stupid as to believe that just because you can’t see the intricate design of the organ structures of the developing, growing human being at the earliest stages, that it’s just a “clot”? Do you even know what the definition of a “clot” is? What an utterly ignorant statement. You’d be laughed right out of an elementary science class.

            You abortion fanatics will resort to any illogical means to justify the murder of innocent human beings. It might work on the ignorant, but try it with God on your Judgment Day. Does the term “rude awakening” sound familiar?

          • Ella Warnock

            Weren’t you heavily invested in shaking the dust off? Knew you weren’t going to stick that flounce.

          • goatini

            Rotten, amoral, narcissistic little Hitlers, these fetus fetishists are. Not to mention laughably amateur embryologists whose only expertise is in cutting and pasting fetus fap brochure psuedo-scientific propaganda. And topping its rabid froth off with a stroke fantasy of the truth-tellers being smited by their “loving” God. Odious people.

          • gratiaplena

            “amateur embryologists”? “pseudo-scientific propaganda”? Oh, you poor, ignorant little atheist.

            My medical expertise is neonatal medicine. I have been in this field since 1970. PLEASE do not insult science with your juvenile, smart-aleck, affected, pseudo-intelligent, “look how brilliant I am” comments. “Amoral”? Seriously? You are the definitive “amoral narcissist”.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Yeah, just a clot. All of those developing organs and nervous system mean NOTHING until it is viable and has the capacity for sentience. It isn’t an individual until it is fully formed and functional. And when it’s organs and body are so barely formed that it has to rely on the woman’s organs to eat for it, process wastes for it, it is nothing more than tissue.

          • ansuz

            “My medical expertise is neonatal medicine. I have been in this field since 1970.”
            Thx for teh lulz.

          • goatini

            I’m an old lady and I find you amoral and repellent.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are a liar. Nickel a dozen among forced birthers.

          • fiona64

            If you’re a neonatologist, I’m an astronaut …

          • Shan

            ” Does the term “rude awakening” sound familiar?”

            And you’re SO sure you’re not going to have one?

          • fiona64

            The self-appointed elect always figure they’ll be the ones sitting in Heaven watching other people “get theirs” via big-screen TV … because they read too many of those asinine “Left Behind” novels. I think *they’re* going to be the ones in for a rude awakening, myself …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have miscarried and given birth. I know what is in the womb by experience and courses in human biology. It is a clot. A fancy clot, but a clot never the less.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Flagged for calling the pro choice “murderers.” I will take the flag back if you prove abortion is “murder” objectively.

          • fiona64

            Ditto.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you. We have to put up with this egregious lie/insult everywhere. But not here at home.

          • BJ Survivor

            No thank you. My body and its contents belong to me and my family. I would never give birth and abandon the born child to strangers. Someone who acts like you might get the child. Abortion while it is still a clot is preferable.

            QFT. I feel the exact, same way. Had I chosen to create a child, I would have taken responsibility for that child, not abandon that child to a stranger and an uncertain future. NFW! And I just didn’t want to bring children into this shit world.

        • Mary Starr

          So? IF those infertile couples soo want a child to adopt, there are always children available to be adopted. Of course, they aren’t cute widdle HEALTHY newborns, they are older, mayhap with health problems, maybe with siblings that ALSO need to be adopted. Some have spent their ENTIRE lives waiting for an adoption – before they get aged out of the system.

          • fiona64

            Yep. I talk about this a lot.

            If I had my way, I would reform the adoption system as follows: couple seeking adoption just gets the next kid on the list. What? You didn’t want a two-year-old girl, you wanted an infant male? Too bad. Next …

        • goatini

          How generous of you, to offer up complete strangers into gestational slavery to enrich the billion dollar global human trafficking adoption industry.

          I personally wouldn’t allow selfish barren vultures to possess one iota of my DNA.

        • fiona64

          Liar … if millions of infertile couples were that eager to adopt, there would not be 100K children available for adoption in this country alone, right this minute.

        • gratiaplena

          @Leticia: I have been trying for years to bring the truth of God’s love and mercy, and of the beauty of the sanctity of innocent human life to people like these radical life-despising women/men on this horrible website (and other websites), but I’ve found that there is truly NO getting though to them. They are totally possessed by Satan. They are unable to feel a shred of empathy…let alone, sympathy, for the suffering of the innocent unborn who are so savagely slaughtered in abortions every single second.

          They are incapable of empathy or mercy, so self-absorbed and self-obsessed and self-adoring are they. Their pride is so repulsive, and their arrogance is so hideous, that it’s time, Leticia, to listen to the words of Christ and obey Him:

          “When you enter a town, and they refuse to accept your message, SHAKE THE DUST OF THAT TOWN OFF YOUR FEET IN TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM.”

          You’ve given it a valiant effort, Leticia, and so have I. It’s time to shake the dust off our feet and let God have His way with them. They’ll be eternally sorry, but at least we can say we tried!

          • Ella Warnock

            OOGA-BOOGA! Begone ye superstition-mongers!

            Yes, shake that dust, ladies – and don’t forget to stick that flounce!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Wow–talk about pride and arrogance–and all of it coming directly from you.

          • gratiaplena

            That’s what the disbelieving masses said to the Christian disciples who tried their best to preach the word of God.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You have an extremely high opinion of yourself.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, sounds like the disbelieving masses in olden times were just as impervious to superstitious bullshit as modern disbelieving masses. Good to know.

          • goatini

            Take it from me: you suck at it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Tell me what the Rabbi Jesus said that gives you the right to speak to the women here as you do. You do not possess what you profess. You are no one’s teacher.

          • goatini

            What a steaming load of projection from an utterly self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-adoring, narcissistic, arrogant, hideous fetus fetishist. Unable to feel a shred of empathy or mercy, let alone sympathy, for an actual living, breathing woman who emphatically does not want to be pregnant.

            I especially like the oxymoronic “I tried to give them God’s love and mercy, so God will torture them in hell” nonsense.

          • gratiaplena

            If you reject God’s love and mercy, you WILL be tortured in Hell for all eternity; not by God, but by your own eternal regret for refusing to believe in and love Him. I didn’t make that up.

            I happen to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. Our motto is: Love them both. Oh, yes, I have sympathy and empathy for the mother of the unplanned child. And there hasn’t been ONE mother who hasn’t expressed joy that they gave life to their child, because of the love an support of people who REALLY CARE.

          • ansuz

            “I happen to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center.”
            D:

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh you volunteer at a fake clinic. And you think this is something to be proud of?

          • gratiaplena

            You bet I am! You just HATE it that some mothers actually choose NOT to kill their babies, don’t you? Do you people have a moral cell in your body?

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not my concern what choice a woman makes about her pregnancy as long as it’s freely chosen by her and her alone. One child, no child–a dozen children as long as that what she wants.

          • ansuz

            My mother chose not to kill me. And guess what? For her, it was actually a choice. She made sure that her options were open at every step along the way. I’m quite happy to know that I only exist because she wanted me to.

          • Ella Warnock

            Much flouncing, yet STILL no shaking off of dust.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            LOL.

          • Shan

            “You bet I am! You just HATE it that some mothers actually choose NOT to kill their babies, don’t you? Do you people have a moral cell in your body?”

            Plenty of us CHOSE to continue with unplanned pregnancies. Because we HAD the choice.

            You are worse than wrong. You are an asshole. I hope your God punishes you to the fullest extent.

          • goatini

            Amoral narcissists like you wouldn’t know morality if it slapped them in the face.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Please tell me what Jesus said that gives you the right to treat women here in this way? You seem to suffer from histrionic personality disorder. And the delusion that you are clairvoyant is de trop. As is the idea that you have moral standing vis a vis another’s fertility and family life.

          • fiona64

            You’re proud of lying to women? I believe it.

          • red_zone

            That’s the key word, there. Choice.

            These women who carried their pregnancies to term and gave birth chose to do so, provided they weren’t shamed or pressured into doing so. the choice was entirely theirs to make. Not yours, not ours. It rested entirely with that woman.

            If a woman chooses to get an abortion, that is her choice, too. No one can-or should-obstruct it or deny it or tell her she’s wrong.

            That is what people are defending here; the right to choose. whether you like abortion or not is besides the point. How YOU feel is immaterial. It is how that woman feels that takes precedence. if she wants to have a child, then that should be her choice to make. If she doesn’t want to carry a pregnancy to term, that is her choice, too.

            No one anywhere should impose THEIR wishes onto the woman, regardless of what choice she makes. Nor should anyone shame her for her decision.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The majority of us are Mothers and GrandMothers here, ya fooking fetusfreak.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wish you what you wish me.

          • fiona64

            I happen to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center.

            So, you’re a shill for the adoption mills. Okey-dokey then. Bye-bye …

          • red_zone

            What DO you care about?

            DO you care about the woman’s well-being and that she gets everything she needs? Do you help her find prenatal care, ensure that she gets proper nutrition and is supplied with everything from diapers, bottles and formula to a pediatrician and babysitter?

            Or do you care about how it makes you feel?

          • fiona64

            Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!

          • red_zone

            So… a woman having free agency over her own body and allowing her to make her own decisions based around what she wants for herself is being ‘incapable of empathy or mercy’?

            I have empathy and compassion for those who are living right now. For women who can’t get help because all those services that would have helped them were taken away under the pretense of ‘looking out for women’s health’, when it does the very opposite. I have empathy for children who are born to women who didn’t WANT them, but were pressured to by family, friends, husbands and boyfriends to give birth because they didn’t value HER enough to respect her wishes.

            I have empathy and compassion for people who are denied their autonomy and choices by people who ACT like they’re looking out for those people, but are just looking out for themselves. Who place their own feelings above that of the effected.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            “I have empathy and compassion for people who are denied their autonomy and choices by people who ACT like they’re looking out for those people, but are just looking out for themselves. Who place their own feelings above that of the effected.”
            ………….
            I know I know, psychopaths.

  • James Toups

    Stating that killing a disabled unborn human child is a “blessing”? Then you repeat lies that have been proven time and time again to be lies. Such as opposing contraception increases abortion rates? Really? Why is it that the majority of women who abort are on contraception when they get pregnant? Because contraception fails. The availably to kill your unborn child at any moment with government funding increases abortion rates.

    A fetus is a potential human? We are human from conception. This is basis science. All of our genetic makeup is there. We do not magically become human because the mother deems us human.

    We are only a human person because we can think? What about a person in a coma? Are they no longer a person? Or person who is severely disabled and has lost cognitive ability? Are they no longer human?

    A loving parent does what is best for their child? true. That includes killing them? So now we sacrifice the weakest for the benefit of the stronger? Sounds like the barbarians.

    You equate miscarriage to abortion? Really? Miscarriage is a natural occurrence, although tragic, it occurs naturally. There is nothing natural about abortion. It is the purposeful taking of a defenseless life.

    I am sure this will make Abortion advocates angry. When presented with the Truth it always does. Your article is far to easy to show for what it is. A complete failure in logic and reason. It demonstrates the failing of moral relativism.
    Thanks for the post though. It will be great to use to educate the growing prolife youth on the effect of the failure of logic and how it effects moral decay in society.

    • Lieutenant Nun

      It is immoral to impose life and suffering on a severely disabled prenate by forcing it to be born.

      A person in a coma has the capacity for sentience, they are simply not using it temporarily. When they wake up, they will still be able to think. A prenate does not have the capacity for thought and might never have it. Even an intellectually disabled person can think. A brainless embryo cannot, as the brain structures that create sentience do not yet exist.

      Potential is not actual.

    • Jennifer Starr

      People in comas are still able to think–in fact, people who were in comas have reported that they were able to hear people talking to them while they were in that state.

      • James Toups

        As can an unborn child hear his mother and father talking. This is proven.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I suppose you think he’s writing those little diaries in there as well.

          • goatini

            He thinks “Umbert The Unborn” (forced-birther Cangiemi’s idiotic comic strip) is a documentary.

        • lady_black

          That happens very late in pregnancy, if at all. Once again, you are pointing to normal development as though that were always the case.

          • James Toups

            I am pointing to truth. It has been show to happen as early as 22 weeks.

          • Jennifer Starr

            On the cusp of viability, long before 90% of abortions take place, which is in the first trimester.

          • James Toups

            Viability is not a standard for humanity or value. We are valuable because we are human. Also, that means over 120,000 children a year are killed after viability. Most of whom are perfectly healthy.

          • KarlKloset123

            Zefs are not moral agents. It is not rational to apply morals to them.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Yes it is a standard. Because until viability there is no sentient autonomous individual. Just the potential for one.

          • lady_black

            Yes viability IS the standard. I’m under no obligation to labor for what YOU value. I’m not your slave and I won’t be enslaved to a non-sentient, insensate blob of tissue, either. Just cross that right off your list. You’re free to gestate all the fetuses you want, James. I won’t be doing that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Being able to live outside of the uterus–being an autonomous individual–is quite an important standard.

          • James Toups

            Your standard is arbitrary. It is based on individual feeling. Not basic science. It may and can change from individual child to another and changes as medicine advances.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not based on individual feeling. It’s based on whether a fetus is physically able to exist outside the uterus. And yes, it can change from child to child because medical situations differ.

          • lady_black

            No, I don’t think so. There is no way to alter fetal development, and that’s what causes the bright red line between viable and non-viable. You are correct only to the extent that we’re saving more pre-term infants due to medical advances. But not younger ones. 24 weeks is still pretty much the lower limit. Saving a few younger than that doesn’t change the point of viability. The first question I would have is “was this *actually* the gestational age?” That can’t be precisely determined, you know.

          • Arekushieru

            Seriously, I have to do this, AGAIN??? *Gets bucket handy* Then the standard at which people can defend themselves from rape is arbitrary.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Jennifer how independent were you at birth? Did you feed and change yourself? Did you have a job? NO you were 100% dependent on your parents. Just like an unborn baby.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Anyone could have taken care of me once I was born. But only my mother could be pregnant.

          • red_zone

            Honey, look up what autonomous MEANS.

          • lady_black

            I’m pretty sure at birth that I was breathing for myself, eating for myself, and eliminating on my own. Infants require *caregiving.* Changing a crapped diaper is not the same thing as pregnancy, no matter how much you try to pretend it is. And no, I wasn’t 100% dependent on my parents as an infant. My grandmothers took care of me at least as much as my parents did, because my parents WORKED. See, that’s the thing about an infant… ANYONE can take care of it. I could take care of your infant for you for the day, or a weekend so you can get some ‘down time.’ I can’t be pregnant for you.

          • goatini

            No such thing as an “unborn baby” – we are not “undead corpses” and all babies ever have already been born.

            These fappers refuse to acknowledge the meaning of autonomy.

          • fiona64

            Anyone can care for an infant after birth, sweetie. Only the pregnant woman can be pregnant … and that’s why only she should decide what to do about a given pregnancy.

            Oh, BTW? All infants everywhere have been born.

            One begins to wonder if all of the anti-choice were homeschooled, since they seem to not understand the developmental phases of viviparous vertebrates.

          • ansuz

            “We are valuable because we are human.”
            No, we aren’t. IDGAF about species affiliation. We are valuable because we are minds.

          • Shan

            “We are valuable because we are minds.”

            Nah, I’d say we are valuable because we assign ourselves value. We have no inherent value outside what we think of ourselves. Neither do zefs have any value other than what what a pregnant woman assigns it herself.

          • ansuz

            That’s pretty much what I was going for, but you said it better.

          • Shan

            Well, you prompted me into thinking about it, and then some words came out about it. Let’s call it a joint effort!

          • ansuz

            If I had the ability to post pictures, there’d be one of a kitty high-five here.

          • lady_black

            That’s pretty true.

          • LeticiaVelasquez

            Careful, that puts you on shaky ground. If I say your mind is not good enough to qualify you as human(see Princeton’s Peter Singer) and I am a powerful person, you might lose your right to live.

          • Arekushieru

            Seriously? No one loses their right to live just because they aren’t human. They lose their rights, full stop, because people like you believe that that makes them inferior to others.

          • ansuz

            Sorry, if I’m not infringing on your body, you have no right to assert that my mind is not good enough.

            EDIT: With the caveat that we’re talking about shaky territory. If we’re talking about the mind of, say, a carrot, we can be pretty confident.

          • goatini

            I love it when the fappers pull the Singer card – it means they have nothing left to defend themselves except the abstract philosophy of an outspoken ethicist and philosopher whose family was decimated by the Nazis, and whose parents were able to escape from Vienna in the late 1930s. The reproductive justice movement does not in any way claim Singer as a spokesperson.

          • fiona64

            ‘fess up … you were typing with one hand when you wrote that, weren’t you?

          • Arekushieru

            Wrong, most are NOT healthy. Even in Canada, women aren’t going ‘willy-nilly’ to an abortion clinic for reasons other than medical necessity. Seriously, antis, think before you speak. And, no, you are NOT medical doctors. SMDH.

          • lady_black

            Still not viable. Still not sentient.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Nope. Sentience is not physically possible until well past 24 weeks.

          • James Toups

            And how do you know that? The brain is fully developed at 18 week. Is that just because you say so? You disagree with basic biology? Pain receptors are fully functional before 18 weeks.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            The brain is not fully developed at 18 weeks. I have numerous peer reviewed studies that I can cite.

          • goatini

            Of course it isn’t. I read that and said “what?!?!”

          • lady_black

            No.

          • James Toups

            And I can site many that state otherwise. The point is brain function does not define humanity. Of course you know this.

          • ansuz

            Minds are the only things that matter.

          • James Toups

            Why?

          • ansuz

            Because a mind has the ability to care.

          • James Toups

            Where does the mind get that ability to care? Are we human first? Do we gain the ability to care then become human?

          • ansuz

            Irrelevant. A nonhuman with the ability to care about hirself is equal in value to a human with the ability to care about hirself.

          • JamieHaman

            You have never had children that you have raised. You have never seen the development of a child who is a hair pulling, tail pulling cat or dog gnawing little person grow, and develop into a caring capable human being. Takes a lot of time, and a lot of effort.

          • JamieHaman

            Ummm, bodies count too. The body is the frame work that allows the brain to receive information, through the eyes, ears, mouth, nose, and the glorious skin. Or hey, maybe I’m being to literal minded. Been known to happen.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            If your head was decapitated from your body, and only one could be saved, your head would be saved, because it contains your mind, not your body.

          • Ella Warnock

            Unless you’re pregnant. Then they’ll be saving the part of the body that has the fetus in it. Gay-rawn-teed.

          • JamieHaman

            John Peter Smith Hospital did that in Texas with the dead (totally dead) body of a young woman named Marlise Munoz, who was 14 weeks pregnant at the time she is believed to have died, due to a suspected aneurysm. Kept her body on life support for weeks, till her husband was able to have her body removed. Why? Texas, in it’s infinite idiocy, made into law that any pregnant woman must be placed on life support (family’s cost) if needed, to allow the child to be born.
            The hell with what the mother wanted, the father wanted, or the fact that the child was going to be unable to survive. Outrageous.

          • Ella Warnock

            It was outrageous. A grotesque mockery of “pro-life” thinking. There was nothing pro nor life about that sickening debacle. And they still think that that poor man “killed his baybee.” Man, Jesus really did weep.

          • lady_black

            Yes. The message boards on liveaction were a real barf-fest while that debacle was going on. People lost their minds, claiming brain dead isn’t “really” death, and saying they would adopt the “baby.” There was no baby, and there wasn’t going to be a baby. All my sympathy was with that poor family for what they were put through.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It was absolutely disgusting. At least the hospital had the decency not to drag this out and appeal the decision–that much I’ll give them. Good that he and the family were finally able to say goodbye and honor her wishes, but it should never have happened in the first place.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yes, they would have adopted *that* particular baby, only. I’m sure there are some special needs kids in all of their areas who would like to be adopted, but they’re not exactly out there looking for *those* kids, now are they? Nope, just that one particular *baby*.

          • lady_black

            I understand the law in Texas. The hospital lawyers made a gross and macabre twisting of what the law actually says. The judge made it pretty clear in his decision. The law is intended to keep the hospital from removing life support *if wanted* to possibly give a fetus a chance at life. The hospital made it about themselves and what THEY wanted. The law was never intended to be an end run around the wishes of the patient and the family, as if to substitute what Mrs. Munoz would have wanted with what the hospital thought was best. Hopefully there will be no more cases like this.

          • Shan

            “I understand the law in Texas. The hospital lawyers made a gross and macabre twisting of what the law actually says.”

            Is that entirely the hospital’s fault, though? Look at the emerging laws in Texas. Doctors all over must be paralyzed with wondering how to continue practicing their best medicine without facing a jail term or killing a patient.

          • lady_black

            The hospital IMHO should have asked the court for a hearing to clarify the law. I do understand the ‘intent’ and the law could have been made clearer in it’s language. It should have been a no brainer for the hospital to figure the law didn’t say “dead bodies containing fetuses are your property no matter what the family wants.” I know Texas passes some screwy laws, but geez…

          • Shan

            “I know Texas passes some screwy laws, but geez…”

            It’s not just Texas. The whole country is fetus-obsessed right now. That’s part of how Texas is getting away with it.

            IMO and YMMV and all that.

          • red_zone

            I honestly cannot wait for Wendy Davis to be elected. She actually showed she gave a damn and made an effort to stop such laws by going to extraordinary lengths.

            Yo, Texas! GET OUT THERE AND VOTE FOR DAVIS ELECTION DAY!!!

          • JamieHaman

            Good points. Part of the problem for JPS lawyers, was JPS Doctors, worried that if they did remove her, they could be prosecuted for what-ever (I suspect murder of the fetus).
            I personally found it utterly horrific that the law would insist on this treatment for a pregnant woman, especially since her family wanted her off the support, for her own sake.
            For me the appalling part of this, was that this woman had no voice,.
            End of life documentation would not have stopped this from happening, though it may have stopped it sooner, and the family may not have needed to get to a judge.

          • lady_black

            Of course, the judge had the common sense to know that “life support” doesn’t apply to a dead body, and especially against the family’s wishes. I confess I never read the actual text of the law, but some law makers did say that it wasn’t their intention that life support apply to a person who is already dead.

          • JamieHaman

            Point to you, however, the eyes, ears, mouth, nose, and some skin are all on the head. Shortest route to the brain.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Save the hair first, especially if it is beautiful!

          • ansuz

            Bodies matter because of the minds that are in them.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, yes it does. Even persons who are mentally disabled still have brains that function, albeit differently.

          • James Toups

            why?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Your brain makes you who you are. Your personality–everything. Minus your brain you’d simply be an empty shell.

          • James Toups

            The brain is present as early as 20 days. Personality comes from your soul and time. The brain is an organ. No one has yet to prove a biological effect on personality.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A soul is a religious concept–you may believe in it but not everyone does. Your brain is who you are, and yes, it does affect your personality in many different ways.

          • lady_black

            Soul? What the hell is a “soul” and where is it located in the human body?

          • Jennifer Starr

            My second cousin who is bipolar and schizophrenic would be very surprised to hear your theory that the brain has no effect on personality–the doctors who treat her know differently.

          • ansuz

            “No one has yet to prove a biological effect on personality.”
            What is this, I can’t even.

          • red_zone

            Uhhh… no, it’s NOT Provide evidence that states otherwise.

          • JamieHaman

            You have no idea. Heard of mental illness? Of course you have. Ever been around someone with diabetes? Noticed their behavior when the sugar levels hit a high? Or a low? Do some research.

          • red_zone

            If you CAN site, then do so.

            Otherwise, be silent.

          • JamieHaman

            Site away! Use scientifically peer review articles, Only. Nothing else counts.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’d be interested in knowing where he got the idea that the brain has nothing to do with personality. That’s one I’ve honestly never heard before.

          • JamieHaman

            lol, Me either. I think it is because we don’t hang around enough ignorant, willfully uneducated people. Nearly everyone else knows better.
            I suspect this one was home-schooled. With the Bible, and nothing else.

          • lady_black

            Cite* a shortened form of citation.

          • lady_black

            The brain isn’t fully developed at birth. Hopefully it will be sufficiently developed to allow reflexes. The human brain will be the fastest developing organ in the human body for the first few years of life, and reach most of it’s adult size by the age of five.

          • Shan

            Hell, my 17yo son’s brain is DEFINITELY not fully developed.

          • lady_black

            And it will not be until he reaches the age of 25 years. Good luck!

          • Shan

            LOL! Thanks. He’s a good kid and has a fantastic sense of humor. Which is good, because he’s like a blonde Sasquatch.

          • fiona64

            No, dumbass, they are not. The myelin sheath, which is what makes the nervous system function, is not fully in place until approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, at which point abortion absent medical necessity is non-existent. Furthermore, since anesthesia is systemic, the fetus still does not feel anything in a medically necessary abortion past that point; once the woman is anesthetized, so is the fetus.

          • Shan

            ” Furthermore, since anesthesia is systemic, the fetus still does not
            feel anything in a medically necessary abortion past that point; once
            the woman is anesthetized, so is the fetus.”

            It’s my understanding that the fetus is given an injection of digoxin to stop its heart first.

            http://www.drhern.com/en/abortion-services/second-trimester-abortion.html

            So all those 20wk bans based on the notion of “fetal pain” are pretty much asinine.

          • lady_black

            You’re missing the point entirely. Senses require a functioning brain to process them. Your ears are only mechanical conductors for sounds. Your eyes are cameras. I’m pretty sure that Terri Schaivo had functionally working eyes. She was still legally blind because the part of her brain that processes visual imagery was gone. The camera was still a camera, but there was no film in it. At 22 weeks there is as yet no recording device to capture and process sounds. Evolutionary biology says it’s a good thing for a human infant to (eventually) learn to recognize the voices of it’s parents. That wouldn’t be needed yet at 22 weeks, because if born, it would probably not survive. But it’s not a remote distant event, either.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          The ears can hear but it does not register because the brain is not functional.

    • Jennifer Starr

      And yeah, I would say that my ability to think makes me human. If my brainwaves are not registering and I’m brain dead but my heart still beats, just let me go, because everything that makes me who I am will be gone.

      • James Toups

        Brain waive register in an unborn child at 43 days. Before most know they are pregnant.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          Primitive brain waves that have zero to do with sentience.

        • lady_black

          OMG use a dictionary. Brain “waive?” “How it “effects” moral decay in society? And you are “educating” people.

          • James Toups

            Being condescending only shows you lack basis in truth. or have no real argument beyond personal feelings. Take care.

          • lady_black

            Part of life is education. And believe me, it shows. In nursing school, if you misspelled the answer, it was WRONG. It’s about discipline. If you wish to be taken seriously, you cannot come across as an uneducated rube. That includes using the wrong words, misspelling and grammatical errors.

          • James Toups

            As is par for the course when talking to pro aborts. Condescension and insults always end the conversation. It is very sad. Best to you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s it, flounce off because your pride is hurt.

          • goatini

            WIsh we could still post graphics, this needs the “Flounce Expressway – Let me drive you” LOLcat.

          • expect_resistance

            I wish we could still do that. I miss the graphics you posted.

          • goatini
          • Lieutenant Nun

            10 abortions and you can post links. Congrats!

          • goatini

            My punch card has been validated!

          • expect_resistance

            :)

          • R0chambeau

            It’s really sad that abortion is a joke to you.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            You’re a joke to me.

          • expect_resistance

            You have a grown-up account too. I wish I had one. I need to get my butt in gear and ask for one. I’ve been here long enough. :)

          • lady_black

            I have standards for taking people seriously. They include (among other things) being able to express oneself effectively and not babbling about religious notions as though everyone knows what you’re talking about. Your personality comes from your “soul?” No it doesn’t. It comes from your brain, and science proves that.

          • Shan

            “Condescension and insults always end the conversation.”

            That’s the way you started it out yourself. Did you expect everyone else to be better than you?

          • expect_resistance

            Bingo!

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, he does, all the while expecting us to be ‘logical’ with ‘personal feelings’ as he is.

          • lady_black

            You started out insulting and remained insulting, even in your error. Your selective blindness is fascinating, but in no way charming.

          • expect_resistance

            And you’re not condescending. Give me a flipping break. Please take your forced-birther crap and go tell someone who gives a damn.

          • lady_black

            Jesus Christ in a handcart! Do you even pay attention to what you post, or are you like one of those machines where you press a button and a fart noise comes out? “As is par for the course when talking to pro-aborts.” Fart, fart, fart.

          • Arekushieru

            Calling us ‘pro aborts’ IS insulting. As we are OPPOSED to force, unlike you.

          • expect_resistance

            No it’s called bing logical and factual which you clearly are not from your posts.

        • Arekushieru

          Please read before posting next time. You have JUST shown that it is not we who lack science and facts.

    • goatini

      No “truth” whatsoever in your post.

    • JamieHaman

      Do you have a single link for your points? A single link to prove that most abortions are performed when contraception fails? We are designed to be human from the moment of conception. That does not make an acorn an oak tree. An embryo is not a human being.
      That opposing contraception coverage increased abortions? That’s obvious. No effective contraception? Pregnancy will result. That’s biology.

      Your feelings do not count as proof.

    • fiona64

      I’m sorry, can anyone parse this into English for me? My anti-choice-gibberish-to-English decoder ring is broken.

    • lady_black

      I’d say that a miscarriage is exactly as “tragic” as the woman decides it is. It’s such a common experience, and certainly not the end of the world. The same can be said about abortion. Most women who have an abortion go on to have children later, when they’re equipped to raise them.

    • http://www.awaypoint.wordpress.com Valerie Tarico

      Notice how this commenter uses the words “person” and “human” selectively. Arguing as if they were synonyms but in each sentence using the one that most people would agree on based on the *differences* in meaning.
      The words “Truth” and “moral relativism” are Christian code words that reveal the motivation behind the person’s argument.
      Also, as I’m sure most of the audience here knows, we have very good evidence (google the St. Louis Choice Project) that access to highly effective top tier contraceptives dramatically drops the abortion rate.

      • Arekushieru

        OMG, THANK you for saying that. I was going to write that in my own post, but you beat me to it! SO awesome!

        That is, the thing about human/person being used interchangeably.

      • lady_black

        Exactly. “Human” and “person” are not synonyms. I see this all the time. A dead human body is definitely human. It is not a person.

      • goatini

        All very calculated, all deliberately intended to intentionally deceive.

      • R0chambeau

        Analysis:

        Psychologist ….a person who couldn’t get into medical school.

        • fiona64

          Boring troll-boy is boring …

        • Jennifer Starr

          You are one of the least interesting trolls I have ever encountered on this board.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          You are snoozalicious.

        • lady_black

          Actually… wrong. Those are two completely different disciplines.

          • R0chambeau

            Ya think?

    • Arekushieru

      The reason opposition to contraception increases abortion rates is very simple (too bad you are not logical enough to figure it out, however): The anti-choice (YOUR) crowd in the main tends to ALSO oppose comprehensive sex-ed. They oppose reliable access to contraception. They oppose single-payer healthcare that would ensure that people who are sick would get the treatment they need, thereby increasing the chances that illness would decrease the effectiveness of female contraception. They also would never dare to support research to make contraception that is more effective, either.

      Contraception fails, but that is entirely irrelevant to YOUR argument, unless we are talking about what the anti-choice crowd would like to deem the most perfect form of birth control without discussing actual failure rates, meaning abstinence, of course. After all, if we are to make an EQUAL comparison, wouldn’t we measure the rates of usage across the board, rather than just the effectiveness of perfect usage? And, in that case, YOUR argument fails, UTTERLY.

      Government funding increases abortion rates? No, it just makes them safer. SO sorry.

      If a fetus does not magically become ‘human’ because of whether or not the woman wants it, then how come a zygote can magically become ‘human’ because of whether or not the Pro-LIFE crowd wants it? Oops?

      What? Does having to acknowledge that there ARE differences between a fetus and a woman hurt your widdle fee-fees? Is THAT why you have little difficulty focusing on one single sentence out of an entire article (as another commenter already explained) so that you can diminish the lives and experiences of ACTUAL women in order to compare them to fetuses? So easy for you to do because you will never be hurt by these policies if they are actually enacted. So what is that about the responsibility card you like to play, again?

      So, according to you, compassion can only come AFTER a person has experienced pain and suffering, not before. A parent who decides to/not to kill their child after they have suffered and experienced pain is being more compassionate/loving than one who decides to end their life before they can ever have the chance to experience it? Wow, you have a VERY skewed view of what a loving parent/compassion actually is and I am SO glad that neither of my parents are someone like YOU.

      Miscarriage is spontaneous abortion. And it STILL ends with a dead fetus. If the life of the fetus, and not punishing women for having consensual sex for purposes other than procreation, WAS your concern, you’d be just as concerned about miscarriages, too. WHOOPS! Btw, there are non-human animals that self-abort, so there goes your ASSumption that abortion isn’t natural. But, of course, I forget, you want to treat human females as LESS than all other female animals. SFS.

      Sorry, but as I pointed out above, YOU are the ones that practice moral relativism. And you have little to no acquaintance with logic, reason OR rationality.

      There is no ‘Truth’ that you have shown us. Only retread and recycled arguments based on little or no scientific fact. It has little basis in the Christian ‘code’ from which it sprang, either. After all, the Bible rarely, if ever, mentions abortion, and when it does it only mentions it in a forced abortion context, which is completely the OPPOSITE of Pro-Choice as WELL as Pro-Life. Oopsies, again.

      Denying women the same rights that everyone else has, RIGHTFULLY makes people who are rational and equality minded angry. If you expect it not to, that very explicitly states your contempt for women, openly.

      In closing, iow, you want to teach Pro-‘Life’ youth how to FURTHER affect moral decay in society. AW!

      • http://sometimesithink-krissy.blogspot.com/ krissy knox

        To defend abortion because you say it would be kinder for a mom to kill her child before birth than after is a sick as well as an illogical conclusion. Because neither is necessary. When a woman becomes pregnant, she becomes pregnant with a human being. This fetus (Latin for little one) is a person, a live human being. If you don’t believe that, what species do you believe it to be? Let’s not take the life of the fetus before or after birth. It’s a human being.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I believe in leaving the decision up to the woman who’s actually pregnant.

        • Lieutenant Nun

          Fetuses are not people and they cannot suffer. Born children can suffer. Forcing a prenate to be born is to impose suffering on a sentient person

        • Arekushieru

          Um, why do you people always have fucking difficulty with reading comprehension? I was responding to someone ELSE’ point about when they believed compassion occurred. That’s IT, that’s ALL. Seriously. Context, people, CONTEXT.

          A fetus is not a human being/person. And even if it were that is ENTIRELY irrelevant.

          Placenta means cake. Can I haz placenta, now?

          Seriously, do you people not READ??? Human does NOT equal human being/person.

          Let’s not take the life of the rapist before or after the rape is finished. After all, THEY are INDISPUTABLE human beings. And if the fact that a fetus is a human being is all that mattered in preserving its life, that’s ALL that should matter when it comes to preserving a rapist’s life. But, of course, you people are hypocrites, who like to move the goal posts when you realize you’re ‘losing’.

          But, seriously, I am barfing because I even had to write that. *Puke*

          • fiona64

            I know … they all use the Humpty Dumpty method of defining a word, don’t they?

            “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a
            scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

        • goatini

          If I do not wish to become a parent at any specific time and/or place, safe and legal pregnancy termination is absolutely necessary.

        • fiona64

          This fetus (Latin for little one)

          Oh, FFS. I am so sick of educating the dimwits who think that they understand Latin. However, I’ll do it again just for little Krissy here.

          fe·tus noun ˈfē-təs

          : a human being or animal in the later stages of development before it is born

          Full Definition of FETUS

          : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

          Origin of FETUS

          Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful — more at feminine

          First Known Use: 14th century
          —-
          All viviparous vertebrates carry fetii … it’s not a uniquely “human” thing. And, I’ll bet the proverbial nickel that you couldn’t pick out the human embryo from an array of those from other viviparous vertebrates at similar stages of development. http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/embryo/embryoflash.html

          • lady_black

            Even vertebrate animals (such as birds and reptiles) hatched from eggs go through embryonic and/or fetal stages. I went to your link and I’ll be honest… they all appear so similar I was unable to tell the difference, but I expected that. I’ve told many no-choicers that they would be unable to distinguish a human embryo from a fish embryo or a chicken embryo. By the fetal stage ONLY does genus become apparent, and later, specific species. If you look at pictures of early fetal monkeys and apes, they look no different than human fetuses.

          • Shan

            Nevermind the pictures, show them the DNA. Whoo-eee.

          • ansuz

            I bet they couldn’t tell from looking at the DNA, either.

          • fiona64

            You know what the truth about that link is? Most people pick the skink. And yet the anti-choice insist that an embryo looks like a teeny-tiny infant from day one. It amazes me how many of them just accept the (long-ago dismissed) homonculus theory of human development.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            They now talk of ‘inherent capacity’. zygotes are rational human beings, you just can’t ‘see it’ yet, because they have to ‘reconfigure’ themselves so that they may express their rationality.

          • fiona64

            Ooooookkkkkaaaayyyyy …

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Fiona, see if you can parse this:

            If we look at the definition the capacity needs to be present and active. In the example I’m using say the cars wheels need to be retracted and wheel space sealed. What this says is that the capacity is Latent adj. present or potential but not evident or active. Wheel retraction to function meets this definition.

            Yes you can have a design where the car can drive straight into the water the structure is sealed and ready to go. But if the configuration needs major modification – not like a simple turning of a driving mechanism- the capacity is is LATENT.

            Same with the autobots changing into cars, the car configurations is inactive and by definition is latent.

            Therefore this version of complex machine where there is major -and not superficial – structural change if we can still call it a amphibious car plane whatever; this circumstance definitionally applies to a self assembler as well. All the system is doing is changing its configuration by additional rather than by reconfiguration.

            I’m just using the definitions as stated.

            If you use it your way the above example isn’t a amphibious car and a self assembling anything becomes a nonsensical term.

            That’s why you call it a self assembling car. If it were simple machine yes it isn’t a car until you build it. Same thing with other complex machines that need build or change their configuration.

            Think of the Autobots. A.I. humanoid robot than can configure themselves as humanoid or cars. They are what they are autobots. Part of their configuration is ALWAYS latent but that doesn’t mean they aren’t autobots.

            Or an amphibious car that needs to change its configuration to operate in water. The water capacity is -in this case- latent but it would be nonsensical to say it isn’t an amphibious car while its driving because it isn’t operating in water.

            Conceptually any self assembling machine is what it is, even if its other signifier is still latent.

            This isn’t car house or robot existing a independent parts during construction.

            The Blastocyst is a compete system and is online once the sex cells have finished integration.

            The code/dna is complete it then starts as a self assembling system, even if it is building itself with some assistance.

            The program and bootstrap system is complete and starts- I imagine- at the moment of complete integration.

            It is a SELF assembling system and the self aspect designates it is a complete individual system.

            Look at it this way. Ask an engineer -who had the technology- to design and build a self assembling car from a modular single bootstrap module.

            The design necessitates that it has a singular rudimentary start configuration that will replicate to build itself further.

            He comes back to you and shows you a shoebox sized machine and says here is your self assembling car.

            You say to him but that doesn’t look anything like a car and her will roll his eyes.

            It is what the design spec’s say its is a modular self assembling car. Just because the bootup stage looks nothing like a car says nothing about its design and purpose.

            ———————–

            A fancy way of saying ‘potential = actual’

            You would also not believe how many people keep saying that coma patients/nappers are just like zygotes in that neither can ‘immediately use their capacity for sentience’. It’s like debating developmentally disabled toddlers.

          • fiona64

            ::shaking my head:: These people are living in FantasyLand.

  • lady_black

    Yeah… NO. I’ve been a lifetime pro-choice advocate and I don’t like euthanasia. That’s to say, “mercy killing.” I believe in withholding care that is futile, and concentrating on minimizing the suffering of the dying (even if it shortens their life), and in fact have done so many times in my nursing career. But mercy killing is a step too far. That link sounds like the ravings of a lunatic. There is no need for active killing of a newborn, or anyone else. Comfort care can be given if the baby is suffering. If the baby is healthy, it can be relinquished for adoption. None of this has anything to do with abortion.

  • lady_black

    I happen not to agree with you.

  • Shan

    “Most “pro-life” positions aren’t really “pro-life”; they are no-choice. They are designed to protect traditional gender roles and patriarchal institutions and, specifically, institutional religion. The Catholic bishops and the Southern Baptist Convention—both leaders in the charge against reproductive rights—represent traditions in which male “headship” and control of female fertility have long been tools of competition for money and power. They use moral language to advance goals that have little to do with the wellbeing of women or children or the sacred web of life that sustains us all.”

    Has anybody else noticed that’s exactly what’s happening here? And that it’s usually the men who are the most histrionic (yes, I know) with their moral outrage? James is right in a way he probably doesn’t even realize, in that pro-choice advocates DO represent what is, to people like that, the “moral decay of society.” Because when women are in control of their own fertility, women are in control of their own lives instead of being perpetually dependent on the “male headship” society requires in order to maintain its patriarchal institutions.

    • lady_black

      True. But that’s too bad for him. Society as a whole doesn’t have to buy the rotten dead fish he’s selling. Let him eat them himself.

      • Shan

        Yes, but society is still mainly set up with the presumption that’s what everybody is *supposed* to buy.

        Okay, enough with the analogies. I am too literal.

        • lady_black

          Some societies are set up thusly. Mostly third world theocratic societies. I know I didn’t grow up that way, and I’m no spring chicken. I’d like to think most of us have moved on. The ‘good old days’ weren’t all that good.

          • Shan

            “The ‘good old days’ weren’t all that good.”

            Definitely not. And I think what we’re seeing over the past couple of years with all the anti-abortion and anti-contraception legislation is a last gasp of the dying breed.

          • JamieHaman

            I sincerely hope you are right. I think as young people realize how badly they have been robbed of accurate information concerning sex, contraception, and consequences, they will continue to throw off the religious, patriarchal insanity we are seeing now.

          • Arekushieru

            Not really. There is still a LOT of pressure for people to perform one way or another, especially as regards gender roles.

          • lady_black

            Don’t play along. I didn’t.

          • Arekushieru

            I don’t. That has nothing to do with what I’m talking about, however. Why ask someone to solve the problems created by someone else, is my point….

          • lady_black

            There’s an SOB in every crowd. At least one. Count on it.

          • Arekushieru

            Again, I’m not disagreeing with that point. Unless you are talking about something else, now, too? It’s hard for me to tell, because with the non-verbal learning disability, my first instinct is to take everything literally.

          • lady_black

            No, you got it. As my dad says frequently, it is what it is. Live your life as YOU wish to live. To hell with what anyone else thinks. Those who matter won’t mind. And those who mind, don’t matter.

    • Lieutenant Nun

      Nailed it.

    • Tara

      I’m quite pro life but I doubt I would fit into the “traditional gender roles”. I’m the one employed full time and putting my husband through school. And my thoughts and opinions are not uncommon among my female coworkers.

      • lady_black

        There have always been quislings like you. Nothing to see here, move along.

      • Shan

        You’re a good girl, though, right?

        • goatini

          S/h/it’s a male trolling as a “female”. Since no form of contraception is 100% effective, there is no way that an actual female would be cutting hubby off 100% until he gets his degree. Being a female as the sole support of income, and being a rabid forced-birther, cannot co-exist in the actual reason-based universe.

          • Shan

            “Being a female as the sole support of income, and being a rabid
            forced-birther, cannot co-exist in the actual reason-based universe.”

            Maybe they could. It would suck everything to pieces, but who am I to judge how someone else chooses to live their life? Didn’t Phyllis Schlafly do this for, like, DECADES?

          • lady_black

            She’s NOBODY’S “role model.” She was the inspiration for the Serena Joy character in “The Handmaid’s Tale.” Such a society could never exist without the cooperation of women. That’s the message of that story.

          • Shan

            “Such a society could never exist without the cooperation of women. That’s the message of that story.”

            Right. That’s why I mentioned Schlafly. Who handily supported her whole family whilst being a rabidly anti-feminist.

          • goatini

            Schlafly is the textbook example of “Do as I say, not as I do”. And Serena Joy, in “The Handmaid’s Tale”, got what was coming to her under Gileadean law – she could no longer make her living as a hypocrite.

          • lady_black

            Schlafly would get what’s coming to her as well, if what she preaches were to actually be practiced. That’s why I never took her seriously. She has an obvious mental problem, she’s delusional.

          • Tara

            I have never claimed that I use NFP in my other posts, though I do. However I had to initially out of necessity and not desire. Taught to me by a doctor who was not religious as far as I could tell and when I was a rabid atheist. Took quite a while to convince me at the time because, like the rest of you, I thought it was hocus pocus and totally untenible. Well turns out not to be, and I avoided surgery. It all worked out I’m glad to report.

          • Tara

            To be quite frank all these people claiming to be doctors an nurses show that they aren’t what they claim to be precisely because they refuse to acknowledge the undisputable scientific fact that it is as effective as birth control. But like other methods of birth control it depends on the right use of it to be effective. People need to, in this case, exercise self control.

          • lady_black

            No it is not. Statistics show that NFP is NOT “as effective as birth control.” To claim it is, is simply ridiculous. If you are ovulating every month you have a significantly higher probability of getting pregnant than you do if you’re not. That’s just ‘common sense.’ It requires no medical expertise.

          • Tara

            No, statistics show use of NFP is statistically equivalent to use of the pill form of birth control. That’s just a fact. I can get the study names if you really want. But I doubt that would be convincing to you either.

            It is true that it is easier to pop a pill than to be conscious of what your body is doing. But this method is uncomplicated and straightforward. And if it is difficult to nail down your cycle that is usually a indication that something else is medically wrong. Endometriosis, cysts, hormonal, etc. NFP is useful for avoiding pregnancy, sure, but it is also a diagnostic tool for other problems. When a woman’s cycle suddenly acts completely different than it has over several years that’s a huge indication that you need to get something checked out. Being aware of the different phases throughout the month and being educated about what is normal and what is not seems to me to be a winner all around.

          • lady_black

            Yeah? I don’t want to be that conscious of what my body is doing just for the purposes of avoiding pregnancy. And if you DO have those problems you mentioned, guess how they get treated? That’s right. Birth control pills. In fact, if you have endometriosis, you might want to avoid menstruating at all. That just makes things worse.

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, I already posted the statistics, with a link. 25% failure rate. Sorry, but you lose.

          • BJ Survivor

            Wrong! NFP efficacy, as with all pet forced-birther theories, is a fraud. In standard clinical trials for a regimen or medication, all failures, regardless of the reason for them (stopped using/used incorrectly/used sporadically) are included in the typical use statistics, because how a method is used in the real world is extremely important information. You can hypothesize the most perfectly efficacious regimen, but if vanishingly few subjects can adhere to that regimen, then it’s pretty much useless in the real world. That’s why there are “perfect use” and “typical use” statistics. And is why only the typical use statistics for LARCs (long-acting, reversible contraceptives, such as the implant and the IUD) are roughly equal to the perfect use.

            NFP studies, on the other hand, just throw out the failures and don’t include them in the statistics. This is called cherry-picking and is highly unethical, though, unfortunately, what I expect from devout Catholics and other forced-birthers.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Fricking liar. You be abstinent. I will save France.

          • expect_resistance

            I love when you say, “You be abstinent. I will save France.” :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            LOL. After all, I am the Vagabond Queen of France. Would you like a piece of gateau St. Honore?

          • Shan

            I’m partial to Brittany for the whole Celtic thing. Can you fix there first?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I would like to see Brittany. Wild and craggy Celtic place.

          • fiona64

            undisputable scientific fact that it is as effective as birth control.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            That’s funny, “Tara.”

            The failure rate for NFP, aka “periodic abstinence,” is 25.3%. https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3105699.pdf

          • lady_black

            I never said it was hocus-pocus. I said it’s difficult, too much like extra work, and has a high failure rate because perfect use is nearly impossible. One possibility you might consider is that you have fertility issues. Do you have any children? In another post you said you have decided to postpone that for awhile. So you won’t really know until you attempt to conceive. The bright spot is that NFP is great for trying to get pregnant. For trying to avoid pregnancy, not so much.

          • Tara

            Yes I have 4 children. And the 7 years between the first and second is the result of employing NFP. We have had 3 more in rapid succession but now we’re waiting till the end of the summer before we throw caution to the wind. He’ll have graduated by then and if I do become pregnant again my due date will be after the deadline at work has passed.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Too much information. Eww.

          • goatini

            TMFI. Too much fake information.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I stand corrected.

          • lady_black

            Don’t forget, S/h/it also claims to be a mucus reader.

          • Ella Warnock

            Is that like reading chicken bones? Sounds like some woo-woo voodoo to me.

          • goatini

            So-called “NFP” IS the functional equivalent of reading chicken bones.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yeah, especially if you don’t mind getting pregnant. Because that’s what you’re gonna get sooner or later, whether you really wanted to or not.

          • goatini

            That is the exact reason why the NFP Medicine Show claims such an impossibly high “success rate” – if you DO get pregnant, it’s “God’s will”, therefore NOT a “failure”. I kid you not.

          • Ella Warnock

            If you’re “open to life” then you’re not really trying to not get pregnant. I don’t care how they tart that shit up, it’s still more about having them than not having them. How stupid would I be, a staunchly childfree woman, to take my chances with that?

          • Guest

            That’s the problem, I love the man I am married to and want his children. Sex is best with love and permanence.

          • goatini

            Nothing lasts forever.

          • B&P33

            Except your soul .. . and for a really long time!

          • goatini

            Well, bless your heart. (I believe that’s how you say GFY in genteel Southern-speak)

          • lady_black

            Either that, or “well, isn’t that nice?”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Or “How special.”

          • ansuz

            Well, rock on with your bad self, then. Me? I’m tokophobic, have an eating disorder, and am on several medications that are not considered safe for pregnancy. Pregnancy without the option of abortion would end in my suicide.

            EDIT: What is good for you is not necessarily good for everyone else.

          • Arekushieru

            See, that is one of the very reasons WHY I don’t want to get married. Because people like YOU state that married women who are in love with their spouses must WANT children. Sex is best however a person believes it is best for them. Me, I’m asexual. Oops. So a sexual marriage wouldn’t work for me, and if I had a husband that still demanded sex, I’d know he DIDN’T love me and he’d be out the door faster than you can say ‘divorce’!

          • Ella Warnock

            Hey, guess what? I love the man I’m married to, too. Twenty-seven years of a damn good relationship with my dearest companion. Can’t argue with that level of success.

          • BJ Survivor

            Me, three! Married for 7, together for 12. Nary a sprog from our loins, only a fur-child.

          • lady_black

            Sure is! The problem is that love and permanence need not include pregnancy and giving birth. I love my husband too. We’ve been married for 27 years now, happily forgoing procreation. Love doesn’t necessarily mean wanting children. The two are unrelated.

          • lady_black

            They may as well be reading chicken bones. To me the whole deal sounds too much like work.

          • Ella Warnock

            No shit. I certainly don’t care if anyone does it, but, ugh, seriously? And do you know, I still managed to be pretty in touch with my body and its hormonal fluctuations withOUT playing around with my woman-goo.

          • goatini

            That’s right. More proof s/h/it’s a male. Impossible for mucus readers to be the sole source of income.

          • Tara

            I did not cut him off. He was laid off at the start of the recession. He wanted to go back to school and I make more than enough to support the family, so he did.

            And just because I know you care about the health of my husband’s and I physical relationship… We have lots of sex.

            Very sad to see so many of my fellow ladies buy into the real hocus pocus, I.e. that you can’t be successful, married, a mother AND contraception free at the same time.

          • ansuz

            “Very sad to see so many of my fellow ladies buy into the real hocus pocus, I.e. that you can’t be successful, married, a mother AND contraception free at the same time.”
            I dunno that people here think that you can’t, we just think why bother trying? We see no virtue in using NFP over other forms of contraception, just lots of work.

          • Tara

            I kept having some fairly rare abnormal side effects with some of the different birth control, so I was forced to go this route initially.

            But after a couple of years it was easy and now I know my cycle well enough that I can avoid when it becomes necessary. (Like for work right now, we have a hard deadline for end of Jan ’15. So I’ll avoid sex during fertile times at least till Aug in case we miss target.)

          • ansuz

            *shrugs*
            Whatever works for you. I’m ace and fairly sex-averse, so NFP for me would be identical to no birth control at all. I’m tokophobic enough (and open enough to changing my mind on the whole ‘sex’ thing) that I find that inadequate. And if I did want to have sex, my ADD and depression (forgetting about things, not giving a shit about things) would make NFP not a viable option (plus I don’t have regular schedules. The length of my body’s ‘day’ jumps all over the place.).

          • Tara

            I did have a bout of extended (serious) depression a couple of years back and at least for me the meds I was on did not make my cycle vary more than usual. I was able to maintain with no extra effort. (By which I mean no effort, because it is pretty effortless after a year or two… It becomes like eating.)

            I can’t speak to the ADD thing because that is not something I deal with.

          • ansuz

            This does not sound like my depression. My depression makes brushing my teeth difficult.

            EDIT: I have a 5 year IUD.

          • P. McCoy

            Stay out of our reproductive lives and stop discussing yours no one is interested. Write your prudent remarks for sexism hungry hypocrites at Catholic Answers Forums.

          • Ella Warnock

            Some of don’t want to be mothers. That wasn’t anything I **bought into**, it was just always the way things were. So, yes, I do feel that I’ve “had it all.” All that I wanted, and nothing I didn’t.

          • Tara

            Can still do that pretty easy without birth control is all I’m saying. I don’t buy into the assertion all women should be mothers… Or that a woman is defective if she doesn’t want to be a mother.

          • Ella Warnock

            We did that pretty easily with a tubal and vasectomy. I was quite serious about it, and it certainly allowed all the freedom that we were looking for.

          • Tara

            I did it without either with the same results. And did not have to deal with potential consequences of those procedures.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are relatively infertile if that is true. Your problems with fertility are not mine. I got pregnant if I took a deep breath around a man.
            CATHOLIC MEME WARNING!

          • lady_black

            My mother used to call me Fertile Myrtle.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We are soul mates.

          • Ella Warnock

            And we gladly dealt with the potential consequences of those procedures. Which amounted to very effective, permanent baby-proofing. Wonderful how that worked out so well for us.

          • lady_black

            Consequences? Like not getting pregnant. What a wonderful, liberating consequence.

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s odd that they always bring up consequences of medical procedures, as in the things that could go wrong. There’s an assumption there that if something had gone wrong, I would have regretted my tubal and wished that I could go back in time and just have kids. Some sort of weird idea that a complication would have, inexplicably, caused lack-of-motherhood regret.

            There were never going to be any regrets about not having them, no matter what else might be going on in my life. The utter impossibility of such a world view, for me, seems to be a threatening and frightening notion for them.

          • Shan

            “There’s an assumption there that if something had gone wrong, I would
            have regretted my tubal and wished that I could go back in time and just
            have kids”

            I think there’s also the assumption that you’re supposed to wish you could go back in time and, in order not to have kids, just not have sex.

            I mean, really. If aren’t continually fearful of being punished for having sex with whomever they want (if anyone at all) the whole thing falls apart.

          • Ella Warnock

            That, and it also falls apart at the point where I don’t have **any** of the regrets I was assured that I would have by this point. Why, it’s almost as if I always knew what was better for me than anyone else did.

          • lady_black

            Me either. I did it and never looked back.

          • fiona64

            “Potential consequences” … like not getting pregnant?

            Since that’s what the procedures are *for,* that’s not much of a negative.

          • lady_black

            People who utilize only NFP cannot be having “lots of sex.” This is the problem with NFP. It’s not just about your ovulation schedule. Sperm can survive for 5 days. An ovum less than 2 days. That means you better be damned sure about your ovulation schedule, which is almost impossible month after month. So many monkey wrenches can get thrown into the works.

          • Tara

            Clearly you’ve never researched the topic. That coupled with the fact that you’ve never even attempted it makes your comment puzzling. Yes, sperm lasts up to 5 days. Yes, an ovum can become fertilized for at least 24 hours. But even when your period varies widely, like mine does, its still real darn easy to tell when ferility is starting to ramp up.

            It’s easy to tell and it does -not- require you to “inspect” mucus as soon as you are able to detect the difference as you are wiping.

            4-5 days without sex ain’t going to kill me or anyone else.

          • goatini

            This sock is either Matt Walsh, or some bro of his trolling on his behalf.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, now I know you’re a male. It isn’t 4 or 5 days without sex. Try a minimum of 7. And the magical ability to know 5 days in advance when you’re going to ovulate! Lord it’s a MIRACLE! That’s not going to work perfectly for any woman for 40 years, darling. Have you considered that you might have fertility issues?

          • Ella Warnock

            And with our trusty tubal and vasectomy, we never had to worry about ANY days! Freedom.

          • Tara

            4 to 5 days has always worked for us. I’m sorry you don’t have more information on the topic. My period is only 4 days and only 2.5 are heavy. In any case I don’t have sex during those four days, usually.

            No I do not have fertility issues. I have never had to wait more than two months to get pregnant when I’m ready. At 25% chance to get pregnant every month I’m doing pretty good.

            I think perhaps you’re used to dealing with fundamentalist who attribute every little thing to God. You have some preconceived notions that are not true when dealing with Catholics. We look for natural explanations by default.

          • goatini

            To Matt, or whichever of Matt’s “oneflesh” bros is writing this drivel:

            It’s not working.

          • Arekushieru

            Then you were just ‘lucky’ lady OR it’s a miracle that can only be attributed to God, yes, just like fundamentalists do!

          • goatini

            This year’s “40 Days Of Stalking, Harassing, and Interfering With Innocent Patients” tactic, as I’ve previously opined here of late, is “stealth” propaganda.

            Last year, it was mostly the same old screeching amped up to 11, along with Scabby Johnson and her dupes aggressively hondling her personal tax-free piggy bank, “And Then There Were None”.

            This year, they’re trying the low(er)-key sock infiltration technique. I find it much more amusing, since they’re as transparent as cellophane. Especially the males who think they’re in any way convincing posting as “females”.

          • expect_resistance

            It IS 40 days of stalking and harassment for sure.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Too much information. Why do sex freaks come to this message board? Why? Do they think we do not know what they are doing at home in between the typing?

          • P. McCoy

            NFP is contraception, but for many ineffective contraception unless youwant a kid . By the way ‘hocus pocus’ is considered to be a slur a blasphemous one against Catholics. It slurs the holy phrase hoc et eninem in the Latin Mass.

        • Tara

          What does being a good girl have to do with anything?

          • ansuz

            Short answer:
            Madonna/Whore dichotomy and ‘The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion’. (The latter is an essay. I recommend it.)

          • Tara

            You can link it and I’ll read it.

          • ansuz

            mypage . direct . ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

            (remove spaces around dots)

          • Tara

            Oh I have no doubt this is true at least to some degree. Just like there are cops involved in criminal activity and there are probably doctors out there who beat their wives and kids.

            We all fail in some degree to live up to our own standards, but that doesn’t mean those ideals are wrong.

          • ansuz

            The issue isn’t in the fact that anti-choice people get abortions, it’s this: “Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique — not like those “other” women — even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons.”

          • Tara

            I have no doubt both sorts of people out there exist. People who considering abortion are under enormous pressure. Whether they think they can afford a(nother) child or, what seems to be a pretty common theme from women on this thread, that it could stifle their life by somehow making them less valuable or unable to perform tasks they might otherwise have.

            I however, posit that the solution is not abortion and that our country is the worst of all first world countries in that it does not see the unique role of women. It refuses to acknowledge the needs of our unique situation and we are in fact penalized. I am not saying here that all woman must or should eventually have children, no. But that they should not be made to feel as though there is no other choice if they want to be successful, productive and happy.

            I am not pleading equal rights in the sense that everyone should have the exact same thing as everyone else, because that seems absurd in cases like this. Men have no capacity to bear children.

            If abortion was really HER choice then it would be devoid of external pressures that might sway her in one way or another. We should offer her all opportunities, wouldn’t you agree? So many women have abortions because of fear, whether it is because they think someone will disapprove, that they’ll be tied down and unable to do what they want, that they won’t be able to afford it, etc. All reasonable, I think. As women we are never living in the moment we are always preparing for the next. As human beings we tend to consider worst case scenarios in order to prepare and actualize something better. By virtue of something being worse case, like best case, it is least likely to occur and yet the decisions are based off the one extreme.

            Pregnancy IS scary when so many factors are “unknowns” and I’m of the opinion that the fears are the things that need to be addressed and attended to.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I “chose life” because of your kind of lecture when I was inconveniently pregnant in 1961. My Mother offered me an illegal abortion. I was shocked, I recall. Not having that abortion was one of the stupidest decisions I have made in my lifetime. Child did good. I am still suffering for that choice.

            If you are a Teen or young woman, this is the place to go for confidential good information about pregnancy, contraception, sex, STDs, breast cancer, etc.
            http://www.plannedparenthood.org/info-for-teens/

            Your parents can go there too if they are the sort you can actually share things with. Do not do what this young girl did.
            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/02/951697/-13-year-old-self-aborts-using-pencil

          • Tara

            Wow at least your honest about preferring to kill your child rather than be uncomfortable here and now. Thankfully most women don’t share your mentality or experience.

            I doubt birthing your child is the cause of your misery. I know many people who have horrible lives, awful experiences, are believers and nonbelievers alike and don’t for a moment harp on one moment of their life. They are for the most part happy people who, despite the hand that was dealt them, are thoughtful and concerned for others.

            I wouldn’t assume that abortion would have made your life better. Or even the other possibility that you had never conceived in the first place.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            “Wow at least your honest about preferring to kill your child rather than be uncomfortable here and now.”
            …………
            I stopped reading right there. I wonder what you wrote.

          • Tara

            I doubt that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            … because your words are golden. Laughing at you some more.

          • Arekushieru

            You stopped reading her words at a certain point. Do you believe that Plum should be held to higher standards than you?

          • Tara

            I don’t follow. Did you mean to respond to a different thread?

          • Shan

            “Wow at least your honest about preferring to kill your child rather than be uncomfortable here and now”

            What an incredibly shitty thing to say.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Most sexpig “prolife” trolls are full of shyte and jism. You can tell by their virtual stench and pungent conversation.

          • JamieHaman

            Really Tara? I know women who did not finish high school, due to those inconvenient pregnancies. Women whose contributions to society turned out to be criminals, because mom was a baby raising a baby.
            Good for Plum Dumpling that her child turned out well. Not all of them do.

          • P. McCoy

            She didn’t kill her child, read the above email, but probably you wish that she had been disposed of. Now who is an advocate of what suicide. So called Christians deserve the old saying :the moral majority is neither.

          • fiona64

            You didn’t read for comprehension, did you?

            That’s pretty typical of your ilk.

          • Arekushieru

            Actually, what you described here: But that they should not be made to feel as though there is no other
            choice if they want to be successful, productive and happy; happens very rarely compared to what society ACTUALLY expects of women: to be married, to a successful man, with children, perhaps working outside of the home, if it’s ‘necessary’, but never to become the breadwinner or to believe that it’s anything more than a detour from her REAL priority, child rearing; so sorry.

            Also, if pregnancy was really the woman’s choice then it would be devoid of external pressures that might sway her in one way or the other. But, I guess, you really want everyone to believe that pregnancy happens in a vacuum, although no rational person would, let ALONE try to make others believe that.

            Finally, denying women choices because pressures in other areas were removed is a very egregious form of abuse. Pro-Choicers want women to have ALL choices, the same choices that everyone else has. See? It is VERY easy to ensure that everyone has the exact same thing in that case. Basing the idea on whether everyone can have the exact same thing on biology is sexist, and, as in the case of the Jim Crow laws, racist, after all. Especially since women will have to take more responsibility for their own bodies than would EVER be required for men, in your scenario. And that is UTTER misogyny. It also means that rather than pleading that everyone should have the exact same thing as everyone else, you are pleading that everyone should have the exact OPPOSITE thing as everyone else. But in one case you claim it’s absurd, in the other you express tacit agreement for it. That’s also hypocrisy.

          • Tara

            I’m sensing a bit of a victim complex in these conversations but maybe it’s just our experiences that differ. Yes women are on the hook a lot more than men in so many ways, which in my opinion, mean men should be held accountable in every way for their actions. I have a lot to say about men and how they behave but that’s not the topic of this article.

            Women should have the right to do whatever is right and good for their bodies so long as it does not cause harm to another human being. This comment brings the conversation full circle and back to topic. Because I do agree with you until that “other” enters the picture.

            Notice all the qualifiers, right, good and no harm. No one gets to do whatever they want. It is not the freedom to do whatever one wills, its the freedom to do whatever is right. (Read “right” as what one should/ought to do) You and I, and so many others here, simply differ one what is right.

            If abortions could be done and both patients lived I could support it. Until then though, I cant .

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Fetuses can do what they want as long as they don’t harm a human being. Fetuses maim and kill their hosts. They have no right to do thus without consent.

          • goatini

            I see the “oneflesh” troll boy is still here.

          • BJ Survivor

            Abortion and contraception are basic health care for women. When women do not have access to either, maternal and infant mortality and morbidity increase exponentially. And so, too, does unconscionable, grinding poverty. No thanks. If you want a forced-birth utopia, I suggest you move to the Philippines or any number of Central and South American countries. We do not want the same hell-hole here.

      • colleen2

        Tara…you are indeed pretty typical. LOTS of Republican women put their husbands through school. Why, Newt Gingrich’s first wife put him through school. Of course the Roman Catholic church has since annulled his first two marriages so he could marry the secretary he was fucking while he was Speaker. But that’s OK. The magic of the Catholic church made those marriafges just disappear in the eyes of God and those 2 children were bastards. It’s OK. The children were girls. Hopefully you and the kids will do better than those two women.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Wild applause. Well said.

    • Mercydivine

      It’s a child not a choice…Refuse to choose…Women shouldn’t control another life. They are not God…Denial is deadly…..

      • Jennifer Starr

        I think you’re reading off a stack of bumper stickers now. And how can you refuse to choose? Either way you’re making a choice.

        • Mercydivine

          Yes, choice life so that you may live….and others…

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think you mean ‘choose’ as choice is not a verb.

          • fiona64

            There seems to be a trend amongst the anti-choice; they not only fail to comprehend basic biology, but cannot construct a decent sentence to save their lives. I don’t get it.

          • lady_black

            Uneducated and illiterate. That’s why they don’t even know what their own Bible says.

          • red_zone

            If a woman decides for herself with much reflection that she wishes an abortion, then she DID choose life. She chose HER life because it is what is present and holds value.

          • Arekushieru

            In your world women cannot choose for themselves. They can only do what others tell them to do.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        There is no child until I make it, WhackingJob.

      • lady_black

        You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill. I will choose a path that’s clear. I will choose free will.

        • Ella Warnock

          These lyrics caused this fundamentalist-christian raised girl to think. I love Rush for the inspiration.

          • lady_black

            Still a huge Rush fan. I’ve seen them many times in concert. They inspired me to think too, about a lot of things.

          • Shan

            OMG, I was thinking of completely the WRONG Rush LOL!

          • lady_black

            The lyrics I posted were from the song “Freewill” by the progressive rock band Rush, circa 1980.

          • Shan

            Right, I just meant I was having a brief mini-seizure for a minute whilst imagining y’all referencing a totally and completely different and WRONG “Rush” there.

            Nevermind, I’m over it now LOL!

          • lady_black

            Yes I would never be quoting that “other Rush” except as fodder for a joke. :)

      • fiona64

        I’m sorry … could you squeeze in a few more bumpersticker slogans? This wasn’t nearly histrionic enough.

      • red_zone

        Well, YOU are not God, either. And YOU have no place controlling another person’s life. Which means you have no place telling a woman what her choice should be in regards to an abortion.

      • Arekushieru

        Not a child. Pregnancy IS a choice. Pregnancy =/= fetus. Sex is a choice. Sex =/= rapist. So, therefore, you think people should refrain from choosing whether or not their rapist will continue to rape them. But, I bet it’s perfectly fine if you control your life by seeking medical treatment, now, isn’t it? Hypocrite.

  • Ella Warnock

    This is sort of funny, in an ironic kind of way.

    http://liveactionnews.org/sports-radio-hosts-blast-player-for-taking-paternity-leave-rather-than-playing-baseball/

    “This jerk wants to control women’s bodies! The baseball player should be
    there for his wife! (Wait a minute, I thought he should just be there
    for the baby. Since when does the incubator matter?) I feel sorry for
    those sports casters wives if those guys think there’s ‘nothing to’
    childbirth!”

    Bu . . . but . . . I thought there actually ISN’T anything to it, right? Why, it’s simply an inconvenience, I was told! And I was also told that there just are NO men whatsoever who want to control women’s bodies! Oh, dearie me, antis are SO confoozing.

  • ace

    It’s just like in the time of the Judges, “In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.” Judges 21:25

    This of course led to things such as Jephthah sacrificing his own daughter and only child (read the story in Judges, chapter 11). When everything is relative to self-chosen values tragedies occur. These tragedies cannot be called blessings just because they are accepted and practiced by the surrounding culture.

    • Jennifer Starr

      To quote Stephen Fry: Phooey! Poppycock, balderdash, tripe, drivel, tommy-rot, banana-oil, nonsense, fiddle-sticks, stuff, fustian, baloney, tummy-rubbish and stimelderfrutch.

    • Arekushieru

      Jephthah’s daughter wasn’t attached to HIS body, was she? Of course, if it can’t be applied to men, then it can’t be considered anything more than a mere inconvenience. You see, it is as I’ve always believed: It is YOU people who make everything relative whether or NOT they are your self-chosen values. And the surrounding culture? Uh, the anti-choice crowd tends to be the majority, there, as well. You people really ARE confused!

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      My religion teaches that following your conscience is a good thing. You confuse following your conscience with following The Rules IMO. Not the same.

  • JamieHaman

    Thank you Oh Lord, that you created me to seek, to find, that I am not one of the idiots who believes every thing that falls out of the mouth of some man, and calls it holy. That you gave me the ability to think for myself: to question the motives and the actions of those who tell me that the shape of the genitals of the body is the deciding factor of what I am to do, how I am to behave, what I am to believe.
    Thank you oh Lord, that I do not have to take the word of a bronze age culture, that regards women and children as property for these things.
    Thank you for the brain and the energy to think about complex things, that I am not so fuc***ing lazy I will take the word of some man who wrote thousands of years ago that slavery is good, that women should be stoned, that none may eat shellfish (they are so good).
    That I may decide for myself who orders my body, of how I will think about things, that I may decide for myself that I may do a thing for good or evil, that I am the only one you will call to judgement for the decisions I make.
    That the decision to carry, to hold to raise a child is mine, not the decision of some idiot who will never pay my bills, or the bills of my child.
    That you oh Lord in your infinite wisdom allowed all of us free will, and the innate ability to run our own lives, that you do not hold us captive to the will of idiots who believe the shape of their genitals gives them the right to determine the future of the people who do not have that shape of genital.
    Rage released.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Perfection.

    • Mercydivine

      I don’t believe you have a correct concept of the “Lord”…Your rage and hate for life is evident… My Will not yours. Yes, free will….Choose life so that you may live, not death….
      But there is hope…These aborted children are waiting and praying for their mothers in Heaven hoping that they will forgive themselves and accept His mercy….

      • Lieutenant Nun

        Embryos can’t pray. They have neither brains nor souls.

        • Mercydivine

          Soul is enfused at conception and of course, they can pray. Miracles abound as witnessed by thousands of post-abortive women now …regret their abortions….

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Prove it. With a peer reviewed scientific study.

          • Mercydivine

            For those who believe, no proof is necessary….for those who do not believe, not proof is possible….

          • P. McCoy

            Worse case of cult control I have ever seen don’t you have an original thought or do just brainless regurgitate what the Catholic Church taught you. Why do you listen to men who could have been raping your own male children and shaming them into silencebbecause you never attack northeastern question an Alter Christus. Are you afraid to think for yourself.

          • lady_black

            Well isn’t THAT convenient.

          • fiona64

            So, in other words, you’re just saying crap that you’re making up and expecting to be believed.

            Got it.

          • Shan

            “for those who do not believe, not proof is possible….”

            Presuming you’re talking about religious faith, you apparently don’t know much about people who don’t have one.

          • red_zone

            So because someone doesn’t believe, they are wrong?

          • JamieHaman

            Well, the Bible says that God was done with Adam before he breathed the soul into his body. Conception is the start, not breathing, not complete. I suspect they regret the circumstances that forced an abortion, much more than the abortion.

          • Mercydivine

            You forget God formed us in the womb and breathed the soul into His creation at the moment when life begins….Denial will never work…sooner of later we will face the truth…

          • Jennifer Starr

            And ellipses will…..never….. die……..

          • goatini

            The climactic ellipses…

          • JamieHaman

            lol, I can tell you this: God certainly isn’t always careful about how and what he creates is He? That or he has one quirky sense of humor. Letting a child live till birth, then due to horrific birth defects, God’s work as you say, that child dying in his father’s arms an hour later? That is your idea of a good thing?

          • expect_resistance

            God is dead.

          • lady_black

            No, there’s no breathing going on in wombs. Not that your “god” is particularly pro-life in general, but he definitely had a laissez faire attitude toward intrauterine life. Also the lives of actual children, non-virgin women, etc.

          • fiona64

            sooner of later we will face the truth

            Yep. Some of us learned to do that in biology class. I’m sorry you missed that day.

          • Shan

            “God formed us in the womb and breathed the soul into His creation at the moment when life begins”

            Then what’s with the abysmal failure rate for fertilized eggs? 50% fail to even implant and are flushed out with the menses and a third of clinically confirmed pregnancies end in miscarriage. God just went “Enh, nevermind…”?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The truth. Isaiah 45:7. It is all God. The cannula is God. I am God. The Crab Nebula is God.
            “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

          • Arekushieru

            Which means that He was really the one that caused Adam and Eve to turn away from Him. He ‘created’ their ‘evil’, after all.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Correct. It also changes the story from the common christianista interpretation if you take in that the Serpent is an ancient symbol for Wisdom. Was the Tree not the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

            And it becomes even more of a an idol/buster when you get it that Isaiah supports Christ in Matthew when he tells us “… be perfect that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

            Everybody goes to Heaven. The christianista’s hair catches on fire when I preach such. But they contradict Christ when they preach damnation. God’s rain as Mercy ignites the imagination of Shakespeare. The Bible is an amazing work of literature that has been a source of fertile imagery for so many writers in English.

            “The quality of mercy is not strained.
            It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
            Upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed:
            It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
            ‘Tis mightiest in the mightiest. It becomes
            The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
            His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
            The attribute to awe and majesty
            Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings,
            But mercy is above this sceptered sway.
            It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings.
            It is an attribute to God himself.
            And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
            When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew, Though justice be thy plea, consider this-
            That in the course of justice none of us
            Should see salvation. We do pray for mercy,
            And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
            The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
            To mitigate the justice of thy plea,
            Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
            Must needs give sentence ‘gainst the merchant there.”

            I will shut up now. Nobody enjoys being preached at.

          • Arekushieru

            Well, there are two reasons for why I don’t believe in hell. One is because even the BUY-bull (which I don’t believe in, either) states that God had never even conjured the idea that sinners should be burnt in flames. And, believe it or not, I learned this from a member of a Christian church that could only be described, to its core, as fundamentalist. I really don’t know how THAT happened, to this day. The second reason is that, as a Unitarian Universalist, and, again, as even the BIBLE states, I believe that every Christian is saved by Jesus sacrifice but I also believe that Christians are the only ones who needed saving in this manner.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Works for me. I can find nothing to dispute in your post except “Christians are the only ones who needed saving in this manner.” There is nothing to be saved from.

          • Arekushieru

            Which is kinda the reason why I say that. Because how else can you say that there are only certain ways that certain people can be saved?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It is a good damn reason to say that. People who speak for God are not moral. IMO they are certifiably nuts and evil.

          • Arekushieru

            I think you misinterpreted my point. If there WAS something from which one should be saved, there would not be a certain way for which a certain type of people ONLY could be saved.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are right. I do not understand what you are saying. Sorry, I am trying to understand.

          • Arekushieru

            We are talking about your disagreement with my point that Christians are the only ones who needed saving in this manner, no? You said that there was nothing to be saved from. Then I said, in response to that last point, that that is the reason why I said what you quoted, that I believe there IS nothing to be saved from. Then I explained further: If there was something to be saved from, there would be no one group of people being chosen for saving in one specific manner, implying that ALL would be saved, not just Christians, not just agnostics, not just atheists, not just Muslims, not just Jews, if there was actually something to be saved from, no? So, now, I’m confused! @_@

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Okay. I got it now. I had a brain boggle.

          • Arekushieru

            So a fetus isn’t human life until it breathes, which is birth. Oops. That’s YOUR logic, btw.

          • Julie Watkins

            Even if “God formed [me]”, I have no obligation to obey, if he made me to be a slave.

            I have even LESS obligation to obey if the obligations and expectations have been developed by other people (not gods) whose understanding and conclusions are based (possibly unconsciously) on their own agendas. It’s only natural that people in power like hierarchical structures that keep them in power.

          • lady_black

            Actually, it says Adam *became* a living soul. Makes perfect sense. Dirt Adam was just dirt. When he started breathing, he was a living soul. When he ceased to breathe, he became dirt again. Actually this part of the Bible makes sense to me as a primitive way to explain life and death. I can do without the talking snake and all the species on earth being preserved through a worldwide flood. Those just don’t compute.

          • JamieHaman

            Nor did the magic rib work for me. Not the snake, not a burning talking bush, definitely not the flood.
            lol, what I remembered was that God was done creating the body of Adam, that’s what I went with.
            Dirt Adam. I like that.

          • lady_black

            Well that’s what “god” was said to make Adam from. Dirt from the ground.

          • goatini

            If one asserts that the soul exists, then it’s quite obvious that the soul absolutely cannot be “enfused (sic) at conception”.

            At least 50% of all fertilized diploid cells never attach to the uterus, and are sloughed off as bodily waste. If one asserts that the soul exists, it’s obvious that souls weren’t created so that over 50% of them would meet its ultimate destiny getting flushed down the toilet. Shall we now baptize sewage?

            And if one asserts that the soul exists, it’s obvious that the soul doesn’t magically subdivide in the case of monozygotic multiples.

            (NB: The vast majority of patients who have obtained safe, legal pregnancy terminations experience RELIEF, not “regret”.)

          • lady_black

            That’s why either way, they are liars. The Bible speaks to no such separate entity as a “soul.” A soul is a physical body + breathing. Before breathing commences, and after it ceases, there is no “soul.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Correct. Life begins at first breath and ends at the last. Soul = Breath.

          • lady_black

            I know, and thanks. It always amazes me that as an atheist who has actually studied the Bible, I often know much more about what it really says than self-proclaimed “Christians.”

          • Shan

            I’ve seen that a lot. I can’t help because…raised by atheists, myself (thankfully). All the theistic religions make no sense to me.

          • lady_black

            I have studied the Bible and the Quran, strictly as an academic exercise. I would love to study a few others, as well. Particularly Wiccan, and maybe Buddhism.

          • Shan

            I could go for Buddhism, maybe. Nothing Abrahamic. Too violent and full of entitlement.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Okay. This is the christianista’s pedagoy: REGRET = MIRACLE. And the voice of the conman is heard in our land . . .

          • P. McCoy

            Put in their heads by culture members and their sex predator clergy. But hey, there are non Catholics who follow the Cult calling too.

          • lady_black

            Let me tell you what your Bible says about the soul. The word translated as “soul” is nephesh. and is tied up in the concept of a breathing animal/person. Since the conceptus is incapable of breathing, you are telling lies about your “god.” In the Bible, you don’t *have* a soul, you ARE a soul from the time of your first breath to the time of your last breath. My mother had an abortion. The abortion didn’t involve any “souls” except her. The pregnancy was killing her. If you told me to my face that saving her life was an occasion for “regret” I would beat you down.

          • expect_resistance

            I don’t regret mine but you can believe all the fairy-tales you want.

          • fiona64

            Soul is enfused at conception

            Citation needed. Peer-reviewed journals only. Thanks in advance.

          • Mercydivine

            ‘For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don’t believe, not proof is possible’

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’ve already said this.

          • fiona64

            Bumper sticker slogans are not citations, sweetie … but thanks for trying.

          • Arekushieru

            Never wondered WHY they might ‘regret’ their abortions? Never wondered whether some women might ‘regret’ continuing their pregnancies? Of COURSE you have, but you would never deign to say that we should outlaw pregnancy now WOULD you? Never wondered if, maybe, just MAYBE, that regret occurs for even the most mundane things in life. I regret having that pop, yesterday, after all. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do it, again.

            Also, you are asking my mom to regret having my sibling, right after she had an abortion, because, if she hadn’t had the abortion, it would have been physically impossible for her to ALSO have my sibling. Wow, what a quandary you antis like to put yourselves in, eh?

            “…and of course, they can pray.”

            As fiona64 says: Citation needed. Peer reviewed journals only. Thanks in advance.

        • expect_resistance

          I’m surprised they don’t have huge blown up photos of fetuses praying. Or maybe the do? The horror.

        • Mark

          To be fair, most people who pray don’t have brains.

      • Jennifer Starr

        You keep your concept and we’ll keep ours.

      • JamieHaman

        Projecting much? God did give us brains. He does expect us to use them. While you forced birthers seem to take the Bible literally, I personally seem to take it a lot more metaphorically.
        Here ya go: “Love thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” All the rest of it is commentary.

        • lady_black

          I actually said that long ago, to a Catholic priest who told me that women should have as many children as they could, and trust that “the lord” would provide. I told him God provided me with a brain, and He expects me to use it. He didn’t have a reply to that comment that made any sense whatsoever. That was the beginning of the end of being Catholic for me.

          • Ella Warnock

            I wonder if any woman before you had ever pointed out to him that women have brains that are perfectly capable of overriding biology? It literally must have never occurred to him before.

          • lady_black

            Maybe not. That was a long time ago. Catholic women used contraception, mind you. But they didn’t discuss it. I probably said something no woman had ever said to him before. But I’m blunt like that.

          • JamieHaman

            The beginning of the end for me came in the first grade catechism. I asked how Jesus could be God, if he was asking God to take the cup from him. The nun told me I was a heretic, then she got the priest, he told me not to ask questions, just believe every thing the nuns and priests said. I had to ask my mom “what’s a heretic?” She wanted to know where I heard the word. No more catechism for another year. It was over with by then.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m an ex-catholic and I’m jealous because I wasn’t called a heretic. It’s like a badge of honor. Like Joan of Arc.

          • JamieHaman

            Badge of honor. Sweet.
            Don’t be jealous though, I struggled for years wondering why all the BS about Jesus and God didn’t make sense. Could not for the life of me figure out why “every one else” believed it.
            Finally gave up, and invented my own God. All she cares about is how we treat one another in the here and now.

          • goatini

            The truth of the matter is that everyone invents their own God, right from the first thoughts millennia ago that there might be such a thing.

          • JamieHaman

            Agreed.

          • JamieHaman

            You know, the more I think about it, the more I feel a little differently after all. I think the majority are too lazy to really give it some thought, and believe what they are told is the words of a ‘holy book’. They don’t think, they don’t invent, they parrot.
            Now, I’m trying to figure out if that’s me too. Thanks for making me think. (Smiling)

          • lady_black

            God is us, if we strive to treat people well.

          • red_zone

            Now THERE is a Saint I can get behind!

          • goatini

            Looks like one of our resident trolls took this idea and ran with it. Check out today’s posts from “Joan of Arc”.

          • red_zone

            PFT! The real Joan of Arc had no illusions of being married and having children like every other woman. She went on to save her country and wasn’t boastful or arrogant about being a messenger for her Lord.

            That’s one of the reasons I like her; when she was tried by the Holy See, she was asked if she was in service to God. Answering yes or no would be considered blasphemous, as no one can accurately and honestly claim that they are under his protection. She either be convicted of hearsay or admitting guilt. Her answer?

            ‘If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.’

            BAM.

          • lady_black

            They think they can bully little kids. Nobody bullies me.

          • Arekushieru

            Jamie, I’m a Christian Unitarian Universalist. The reason I believe that Jesus cannot be God: God said that we shall have no other God before Him. This was God (the Father, in the eyes of those who view the Trinity as God, at least) saying this. If one believes Jesus to be God, then you DO have a ‘god’ before God.

          • expect_resistance

            “God will provide” is such bullshit. I’m also an ex-Catholic and had a lot of problems with nuns and priests at school. I got into trouble for “mouthing off” basically for having a brain and expressing my opinion. I quested gender norms — Why can’t women be priests? I advocated for birth control and abortion, etc. I remember a very large towering priest who banged his fists on my desk and told me I was wrong and in danger of being excommunicated. Like I gave a shit. I couldn’t wait to be free of Catholicism.

          • Shan

            Once more, reading all the struggles here, I’m thankful my parents left their respective churches as teenagers and became atheists.

          • lady_black

            Sounds like my husband.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        “I don’t believe you have a correct concept of the “Lord”
        ………….
        Who died and made YOU her teacher?

      • goatini

        Geez, this one is really on the fap-o-matic today…

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          It stopped typing at “mercy” and came for Jesus.

      • lady_black

        I’m not going to heaven. Sounds boring. And the way YOU describe it, sounds horrifying.

        • Ineedacoffee

          plus i dont like harps and white flowy dresses

      • fiona64

        Are you going to be in Heaven? I assume you think so.

        Well, I’ll choose Hell over hanging out with you and the rest of the self-appointed elect, thanks. We are going to toast marshmallows at the Lake of Fire, and then George Harrison, John Lennon and Jim Morrison are giving a concert. Gandhi will be speaking later.

        • lady_black

          FAR OUT! And Ray Manzarek will be there to play keyboard for Jim. Can’t wait.

      • red_zone

        Who are YOU to be so arrogant to think that YOU know the God you proclaim to follow?

        Such selfishness; to never once dirty your hands and aide those who are most suffering in this world and to BRAG that YOU, who have done nothing for the downtrodden, should claim to know anything about God?

        You are a hypocrite. And God hates hypocrites.

        • Mercydivine

          I’m a sinner just like you. But I do know that all life is precious….I’m nothing and do not proclaim to know God even a little bit. But again I do know that life is precious and every life is made in the image and likeness of God and to destroy that life is wrong…

          • red_zone

            And yet… that is the very attitude that leads to life being destroyed in the first place. that is, the lives of women and children who are living right now in this world.

          • ansuz

            “I’m nothing”
            “life is precious and every life is made in the image and likeness of God”

            This seems like a bit of a contradiction.

      • Arekushieru

        Jamie has a greater understanding of the concept of God than you ever will. After all, God is not the misogynist (as I outline below) that BIBLICAL scholars would have all their yes-sheep believe.

        Your rage and hate for women who are ALSO lives is evident.

        God punished Adam and Eve for doing the very thing He TEMPTED them into doing. If someone were to place a block in front of a child, then tell them not to touch it, what do you think would happen? And, if the child did touch it and then was punished for it, do you think that would be a loving example for a parent to set? If not, why do you hold HUMANS to higher standards than those to which you hold God? And, yes, Adam and Eve were VERY much like children in the Garden of Eden. They had practically everything they wanted, with only one exception. They may have had adult bodies (although it actually tends to make things WORSE) but they hadn’t lived a relatively long time INSIDE Eden, either. They grew up in a bubble surrounded by non-speaking animals and a comparatively distant, almost helicopter-like, parent.

        In that manner, living according to God’s will is NOT free will. And that’s pretty much the manner in which He wants you to live THROUGHOUT the bible. Whoops.

        God punished Adam with toiling and labouring in the fields for accepting the apple from Eve (a so-called lowly woman), a condition that proved TEMPORARY, but God punished Eve by ‘increasing the pangs of childbirth’ for accepting the apple from SATAN (one of the greatest tricksters known to Christians everywhere), a condition that has proved PERMANENT. So, if the biblical God thought that enduring childbirth and labour was a good way to decide that you may live, then He must have believed that it should automatically be decided that Adam (or his male descendants) may live, since they do not endure childbirth or labour. But, conversely, if the biblical God believed that it should automatically be decided that Adam (or his male descendants) may live, then ‘choosing life’ had nothing to do with that decision for women, either, in the first place, since God has not laid down different paths for women to be saved from sin, under any other circumstance that we see outlined in the bible.

        Besides, if the *biblical* God REALLY believed that ‘choosing life’ was the only way that WOMEN could decide that they may live, neither would He have made childbirth an actual physical condition BEFORE Adam and Eve disobeyed God. See, it says INCREASE the pangs of childbirth, not impose them on her for the first time. Oops?

        If one *chooses* life they are Pro-Choice. If they continue a pregnancy as a duty or because they believe that abortion should not be an option, they are FORCED to continue a pregnancy, and that is anti-choice.

        Fetuses aren’t children. There are no mothers when it comes to a pregnancy that is aborted. The fact that these fetuses think that their former maternal hosts WANT them to hope, wait or pray for them, shows just how creepy, entitled and stalker- and rapist-like (you think) they really are. (Why would that show that there is hope, again, btw?) Also, (you want) fetuses that want their former maternal hosts to feel pain and suffering? That is very sadistic of them (and you). Accept His mercy? Now you not only want God to direct women’s wills but the FETUSES, as well? Accept God’s mercy or be punished with the terrible guilt and shame that we want to force on you, essentially. But since that is actually what YOU want, this is probably NOTHING more than a PROJECTION of same ONTO the fetuses (AND God).

        Yes, your rage and hate for WOMEN is COMPLETELY evident.

        • Mercydivine

          I’m sorry but I think I hit a nerve.
          But as a women, I can attest to the fact that there is hope and reconciliation after one..

          • fiona64

            As a woman, I can testify that the pregnancy that almost killed me made me more pro-choice than *ever.* No one should be forced to go through life- and health-threatening experiences like pregnancy against her will. And yes, sweetie, every single pregnancy is risky. Sometimes the risks manifest, sometimes they don’t. Regardless, they all cause permanent changes to womens’ physiology … things from which there is no going back. Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness, and it is not your place to make medical decisions for any woman other than yourself.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Read this thread and stfu about how women should be forced to suffer pain and suffering for your magical mindless zygote:

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/08/how-has-pregnancy-changed-your-views-on-abortion.html

            Excerpt:

            I was raised pro-life. The fear of pregnancy was slammed into me by my parents. My mother, half-heartedly, once told me that if I were to ever get pregnant, they wouldn’t put me out and to not have an abortion. But that was about it.
            I got pregnant with a wanted pregnancy and now I have a very loved, very wanted daughter with my awesome husband. And as wonderful as she is, I’m more pro-choice then before. Because my pregnancy was awful. No real morning sickness, but I was borderline gestational diabetic at 15 weeks (diabetes really runs in my family, which is why I was tested so early). I was also allergic to eggs at the time. So no eggs, few carbs. My daughter pushed up on my ribs and I spent several days unable to breath properly on our couch. Then, I developed gallstones. I ended up in L&D triage, thinking I was in labor 12 weeks early, when I was just plugged with gallstones. (Another hereditary joy) So then I had to cut nearly ALL fats out of my diet. My diet was limited and tiring. Labor at least went well and no complications.
            The worst though was afterbirth. Somehow, everyone missed the major fact that I had postpartum psychosis. For 8 months, I was a mess. I was suicidal. I was absolutely convinced that my daughter was going to die of SIDS, I was going to be blamed, and was going to jail for the rest of my life. I was just sitting around, waiting for this to happen, anxiety blasting through my system. I was planning on running away so I could avoid this pain that I just knew was going to happen. I had a supposedly great “women’s psychologist” up and tell me that I just needed some parenting classes and to ship my child off to daycare since I obviously couldn’t care for her and didn’t know how to be a parent. I spent a week in a psych ward as a result (Thanks to my wonderful, regular psychologist who suddenly caught on. To his credit, I was his first pregnant client, so I was running way outside of his specialty). I’m okay now and at least relieved that my daughter was too young to ever remember anything other then the week she mostly spent with her grandparents.
            But after that? Never again. Never. I could go on and on and on with more as well. But I never became more pro-choice until after my pregnancy. Before, it was more of an abstract. Now, it’s a very real thing.

            ———-

            fuck you into the ground with a rusty nail if you think ANYONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO UNDERGO THIS KIND OF SUFFERING FOR A MICROSCOPIC CELL

          • redlemon

            You know, I’ve been lurking through this whole conversation for the past few days. I did a double take when I realized that this is my story.

            And, since it was brought up, my daughter turned 3 recently and I’m still very much pro-choice.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Its a touching story. I use it because I want them to see that pregnant people aren’t just unfeeling machines for whom pregnancy is a stubbed toe.

          • redlemon

            And use away. I tell my story often, because I’m tired of people hiding/ignoring how problematic pregnancy can be, as well as I refuse to be ashamed of mental illness.

            And the more I think about it, the more I realize I’m pro-choice for my daughter. I got “lucky” with my bout of psychosis. I was trying to inflict harm upon myself rather then my daughter or anyone else. That isn’t a great thing and could have ended tragically, but I wouldn’t have harmed my child. But a second child? I probably *could* go through another physical pregnancy again, with a lot of kicking and screaming and joking about which organ would fail me that time around. I worry more about going through another round of psychosis. What if I cross that line and consider harming her? I already have a good chance of encountering psychosis again, without pregnancy, and that fear is already real. To go through that again, on purpose, and chance the fact that I could actually harm my own daughter, when I could prevent that situation, is crazier then anything else I can think of. One thing I’ve learned in psychotherapy is to avoid my triggers. To some, it’s alcohol or addictive behaviors. To me, it’s lack of sleep and pregnancy hormone crash. And it’s something that CANNOT be solved with adoption.

            I’m trying to save her more then myself. I love her too much to do that to her, or to myself.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            There was a woman on either ljf or tfa who related her story of PPD and PPP. She could not bond with her newborn due to her illness. She hated herself for that. Misery wrapped in more misery. And this kind of thing cannot be predicted. Antis often ignore disabilities and specifically mental illness as if counseling can magically solve everything. They also seem to think that every problem can be safely predicted and handled with a late term abortion if life of the woman is at stake. And that attitude does not account for everything that can kill you *after* birth.

          • redlemon

            It’s sadly a common story that either people don’t take seriously or don’t admit. The frightening part is that it cannot be predicted and doesn’t manifest until after birth (both physically and mentally) and can be catastrophic to a woman and her family. I remember that misery wrapped in misery, the idea that I was a failure as a mother, which led me to withdraw, which made me feel like a worse mother. I remember each sleepless night, where I resented her very existence and then felt so bad about that resentment in the morning that I would just stare at a bottle of pills and wonder if overdosing was the right solution. I remember my husband coming home one day and finding me sobbing in the closet. And I remember the incident that kicked off the very final straw: my daughter choking, that total fear of her death. Three days later, I found myself eating bland psych hospital food and on drugs stronger then one can imagine.

            I had support. I had resources. I had in-laws that took my daughter without question when my husband told them what was going on. They rearranged their schedules to help. We had insurance, I saw psychologists. I have an absolutely incredible husband who took over ALL night feedings after I was put on drugs that would keep me asleep if the house was burning down around me. I HAD the support and I still slipped through the cracks for 8 months. It scares the bejeezus out of me to think of those who are blindsided by anything- physically or mentally- during/after pregnancy. Nothing angers me more then the denial that these things HAPPEN. These things ruin lives. They aren’t so rare. And they are pretty much unpredictable.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Pro-lifers generally:

            1) completely dismiss it

            2) say that once you hold the baby in your arms you will be happy and unicorns will shit rainbows on your face

            3) even in the case of a *wanted* pregnancy, you ASKED for all those side effects because you had teh sex (this is why many felt that Beatriz should have just died)

            I cannot even imagine how horrible it could be for someone living below the poverty line. They want every baby to be born, even those with severe disabilities. How is a low income woman going to be able to raise a severely disabled child? The answer – it ain’t gonna happen. That kid is going to end up living in it’s own shit and piss in some home somewhere, being abused by the help who make a shit salary and don’t care about the patients. Oh, the pro-lifers say, how dare you say that such a life isn’t worth living! Every life is worth living, even if you are tortured endlessly!

            They seem to be living in some sort of fantasy world, where every single thing, no matter how horrible, is all daisies and buttercups. The ONLY thing that they view as horrible is abortion. Everything else, rape, forced pregnancy, 9 year olds giving birth, obstetric fistulas, severe disability – is all bathed in the warm glow of ‘it will empower you and make you stronger’.

            WTF Man

          • Ella Warnock

            WTF, indeed.

          • ansuz

            *non-boundary-crossing hugs*

          • Ella Warnock

            Thank you for sharing your story. It needs to be heard.

          • redlemon

            No problem. I wish it didn’t need to be heard so much.

  • Jennifer Starr

    No, I don’t agree with that at all. Once a baby is born, anyone can care for it if the mother does not wish to do so. Infanticide is not okay.

    • Shan

      “Once a baby is born, anyone can care for it if the mother does not wish to do so. ”

      The ones who conflate abortion with infanticide always forget about that. When a woman has an abortion, it’s not just because she doesn’t want to be a parent, it’s because she doesn’t want to be pregnant and give birth in the first place. .

  • Jennifer Starr

    No, sorry–I do not agree with the link you posted at all. And I don’t know anyone here who would.

    • ansuz

      Yeah, no, I don’t think anyone here agrees with that. Newborns have bodily autonomy that should be respected as much as possible.

  • Shan

    That article is still as ridiculous as the first time I saw it. The very definitions of both “birth” and “abortion” make an “after-birth abortion” literally impossible.

  • LeticiaVelasquez

    I kiss Christina’s toes and admire the extra space God put between her big toe. His creations are always perfect as we teach one another to love.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Foot fetish?

      • goatini

        Goes with the fetus fetish.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Seems strange given that her daughter is twelve. My cousin has Down Syndrome and if someone had tried to kiss her feet at twelve, she would’ve made sure they never did that again.

          • lady_black

            I never kissed my children’s feet. Am I missing something?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Honestly I’m missing it too. I could understand maybe kissing a baby’s feet, I suppose. but to kiss the feet of an older child just seems bizarre. But Leticia Velasquez claims to kiss her daughter’s toes.

          • lady_black

            I never did that EVER. Not even when they were babies.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes. And I made Bronx cheers on their feet. Makes babies laugh. Part of a “these are your body parts game” I learned from my Mother.
            It does not matter. My shrink called me an “adequate Mother” in a report once. I took umbrage. She said no one is a perfect Angel Mother. If you are doing adequate, that is all the kid needs. The kid takes it from there. I found that idea liberating. Because sometimes I was and am a Devil Mother. Somehow my kids survived and are prospering.

          • Shan

            Interesting. Considering how much society expects of mothers, being an “adequate” one is quite an accomplishment in terms of the effort
            needed to get to that point.

            And yet society requires so very little of us before “allowing” us to become mothers in comparison to what it expects of us before “allowing” us NOT to be.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well said.

          • lady_black

            We all make mistakes. If you raised competent adults, you are more than an adequate mother. That is the supreme benchmark and goal for any parent.

          • lady_black

            I did that to my kids and grandkids on their bellies, not their feet. And it does make them laugh. My little granddaughter just thinks it’s HILLARIOUS when I nibble her fingers. That gets a real belly laugh.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Babies and toddlers are such fun to be around. I want more grandchildren NOW.

        • expect_resistance

          Double yes, up vote 10.

    • Arekushieru

      Maybe you should start thinking less about yourself and more about the actual children, because what you described ISN’T love. It’s more of a selfish desire to have your children be your ‘teachers’. Which is just sickening. It’s the exact same reason why I believe that those who oppose abortion because a child may have a genetic abnormality are actually OPPOSING the rights of those who are disabled. It’s more about what makes THEM (you know, those who are generally NOT disabled) uncomfortable, rather than thinking about the best interests of the actual CHILD. After all, when you say that no one should abort a child that might be disabled, you are essentially saying that pregnant women who are disabled should have more of a right to choose than those who are not (disabled). Because, in BOTH cases, you are putting them on pedestals and using them as inspiration porn. Ugh, that is just TOO sickening for words.

    • Shan
      • Arekushieru

        Of course, they can’t actually be expected to READ the article in its entirety, now, can they?

        • Jennifer Starr

          This author has a habit of doing this–taking one sentence out of context and writing a whole mess of BS.

          • expect_resistance

            I noticed that.

          • lady_black

            Yeah. There was no mention of the author contracting toxoplasmosis during pregnancy. It was all about “sin.” Never mind that she was married. I was going to say something, but I didn’t bother.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s the same person who took another article from this site where the writer was talking about the realities of a difficult pregnancy and having a sick newborn and penned this little gem : http://www. lifesitenews . com/news/rh-reality-check-we-need-abortion-because-pregnancy-makes-you-fat

          • Arekushieru

            I remember that one….

          • lady_black

            Charming. The woman should just turn over her child for adoption and everything will be just PEACHY. I can’t stand this blogger. I really can’t.

          • Mercydivine

            Murder is never the answer. Abortion kills children and hurts women. Refuse to choose this violence…

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Abortion frees women from gestational slavery.

            Imnotsorry.net

          • Mercydivine

            Abortion kills the body as well as the soul. Slavery to sin is worse…

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Your god is imaginary.

          • goatini

            Looks like we have more heavy breathing going on here today. Now they’re rubbing them out over “sin” instead of fetus fetish gore. Was it good for you? Want a cigarette?

          • JamieHaman

            Can I use this later? Would be happy to give you credit. Love this comment.

          • goatini

            My pleasure, no credit necessary. The fetus fetish, in both female and male fetishists, is at its core a narcissistic masturbatory fantasy.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            GMTA! I gave been saying this for awhile now. We are dealing with a paraphilia that has elements of voyeurism, exhibitionism and sado-masochism. Throw a little narcissism in there for spice.

          • fiona64

            I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve pointed out that the anti-choice use this stuff as spank bank material … they need help.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Tell me what Rabbi Jesus said that justifies this shaming and blaming of women you do not and will never know. You do not possess what your profess.
            http://rcrc.org/

          • P. McCoy

            Think you’re God now, seriously you need help. Hey folks her handle is a reverse of the Cult Catholic following the Divine Mercy. Pay no more attention to her or he as you would a member of Peoples Temple

          • Mercydivine

            No I’m a sinner. I would never judge anyone who has had an abortion…I judge the act of abortion. Love the sinner, hate the sin..

          • red_zone

            Abortion can be a saving grace. There are women who are compelled to stay with abusive husbands/boyfriends if they discover they’re pregnant and cases where the man will willfully sabotage any birth control to impregnate the woman and trap her with him.

            The ‘Holier than thou’ stuff makes you look arrogant and self-centered.

          • Mercydivine

            Self-centered to want to save lives? Again, I’m a sinner. But I also believe that ….life is a beautiful choice…Women deserve better than abortion.

          • fiona64

            You don’t care about actual lives, though … you romanticize the cypher that is the embryo and ignore the born, sapient, sentient woman. You think you know what is best for women you’ve never met, without knowing the first thing about their personal health, financial situations, etc. … and yet you demand that they behave in accordance to your wishes because you are not bright enough to realize that an embryo is NOT a person … and that a born, sapient, sentient woman *is.*

          • red_zone

            When you demand that women sacrifice their own well-being against their wishes to carry a pregnancy they never wanted to make you feel better, then yes, it is.

            Women deserve better than being treated like their value lies in their ability to give birth and that they are obligated to do so because certain people i.e. tie their own value to their pregnancy.

          • lady_black

            What women deserve is the right to decide for themselves. Why should anyone care what you think about it? You’re a stranger.

          • lady_black

            Whatever, Bob.

          • expect_resistance

            Absolute bullpucky! And “slavery to sin?” What the hell are you talking about.

          • fiona64

            Abortion kills the body as well as the soul.

            Citation needed. Peer-reviewed journals only, okay? Thanks in advance.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Tell me what Jesus said that gives you the right to preach this drivel? This is the second time I have asked this question.
            You blaspheme. You do not possess what your profess.

          • lady_black

            Yes, it is blasphemous. As well as hypocritical.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes. And speaking as a religious person, I am tired down to the ground of this christianista BS. Makes a mockery of God and religion, you are right.

          • Arekushieru

            So, (ACTUALLY) killing a rapist is a form of slavery worse than the actual rape?

            Define ‘soul’. I am Christian, but not everyone is and I don’t EXPECT everyone to be, unlike you. Neither do I believe in a ‘soul’ other than as the seat of one’s consciousness. A fetus does not have such.

            Abortion is not a sin. Even in biblical passages where it might be mentioned, it is not considered a sin: after all, given the circumstances under which it it discussed they could ONLY be talking about FORCED abortion, something that would be just as anti-choice as your ilk FORCING pregnancy.

            And who are YOU to judge whether or not slavery to sin would be worse? Do you not actually READ what other people on this thread tell you? So the black women who were enslaved and forced to bear their slave owners children, were much better off in their enslavement than getting out of it by having an abortion, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE IMPREGNATED BY THOSE VERY SAME SLAVE OWNERS FOR THAT VERY REASON (to keep them slaves)? Wow, you are fucking SICK. Especially when this comes from someone who has never had to experience one IOTA of that slavery for THEMSELVES. You make me vomit. *Puke*

          • Jennifer Starr

            And this has nothing to do with what lady_black was talking about.

          • goatini

            But since safe, legal pregnancy termination is not “murder”; since all children ever have already been born, and so have never been harmed in any way during a safe, legal pregnancy termination; since what actually DOES hurt women is unsafe and illegal pregnancy termination; and since the actual violence is being done by vigilante forced-birthers upon innocent health care workers, why don’t YOU try refusing to choose to believe all the lying propaganda that you dupes have been brainwashed with?

          • Mercydivine

            Abortion is never safe for the baby who will be aborted. Legal or illegal both kill….

          • goatini

            Babies aren’t aborted. Babies are born.

            Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses aren’t babies.

            That nonsense language won’t hunt over here.

          • Mercydivine

            All stages of life..Also baby, toddler, adolescent, adult……

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            There are many instances in which killing is not criminalized: assisted suicide, execution, war, defense of self or others and abortion for example.
            Religious authoritarians always have such high standards – for others. Tell me what Jesus said that gives you the right to take this holier-than-thou stance?

          • JamieHaman

            Murderers are we now? You think it is better to lose a pregnant woman and her fetus than to lose just the fetus?
            I wonder how many of the other children of that mother would agree with you? I wonder if her husband would agree?
            I wonder why you value only the unborn, and not the born. The mother, her other children, her husband, her parents, and her siblings, his parents, his siblings.
            I wonder if you protest hungry and starving children? Children dying of abuse? Do you foster children? Send money overseas to help them?

          • Mercydivine

            First, I apologize if I came on too strong with the word ‘murder’. I didn’t know that so many people here have been affected by abortion and would be offended.
            But you have no idea about my personal life to know what I do for hungry and starving children, abused children or foster children or sending money overseas.
            But that’s not the point. Without life all other issues are meaningless. Helping others while condoning the death of another is wrong, espcially the innocent child in the womb. What has she/he done to deserve to die? That life in the womb is precious and should be protected as all other life should be. That child is made in the Image and likeness of God and when we end that life we reject that image of God.
            As I’ve stated, women deserve better than abortion. The child is not the only victim in abortion. Many women are coming forward today and saying they deeply regret their abortions. I applaud their courage.

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Without bodily autonomy, we are slaves.

          • JamieHaman

            Apology accepted. Of course I have no idea, that’s why I was wondering. How in the world is helping others while condoning the death of an effective parasite wrong?
            You still have not answered the question of whether or not it is better to lose one than two lives.
            You have not answered how you believe the rest of the family will feel at the loss of their mother, sister, daughter or wife.
            Nor have you answered why you only seem to value the unborn in the abortion equation.
            Platitudes concerning the regrets of women are just that: platitudes.

          • Mercydivine

            Why not save both? I don’t know whether you can understand this but: what greater love than to give your life for another.
            Not easy and I don’t judge those who have to make that difficult decision. Just recently in NY a woman gave her life for her child. She decided against chemotherapy. What a beautiful act of courage and love.
            But I’m not addressing the very few cases where the mother’s life is in jeopardy. It’s the 99% of all the other abortions. Why resort to this deadly act…There has to be another way….

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, yes. Pro-lifers are always rhapsodizing about the beauty of sacrifice–provided that sacrifice is made by someone else. And the thing they seem to forget about that is that sacrifice is only beautiful if it’s voluntary. To mandate that a woman must sacrifice her life for a fetus is sick and immoral.

          • fiona64

            what greater love than to give your life for another.

            It’s only sacrifice if it’s voluntary.

            Just recently in NY a woman gave her life for her child. She decided against chemotherapy.

            Assuming this is not bullshit (and trust me, I smell bullshit), that was HER CHOICE. Of course, now the child is motherless, but that’s wonderful on Planet You, right?

            No love, a woman whose pregnancy almost killed her … and who will NOT go through that again.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, they become quite orgasmic over the ones who die. Listen to them proclaim in hushed, quivering voices “no greater love.” It’s pornographic.

          • ansuz

            ….

            ….
            *vomit*

          • fiona64

            I know, right? It’s downright creepy.

          • lady_black

            No, the story about the woman in NY is true. But that might not be everyone’s decision, nor should it be.

          • JamieHaman

            Ectopic pregnancy makes that impossible. So do a number of other pregnancy specific illnesses.
            Still are not answering my questions.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Are you in favor of criminalizing abortion?

          • Ella Warnock

            “what greater love than to give your life for another”

            And *I’ll* be the one to chose if – or whom – I’ll give my life for. It certainly will never be up to anyone like you.

          • red_zone

            Because it’s not always possible. Tough choices have to be made.

            That was HER CHOICE, though. Also, there was no guarantee that chemo would have saved her, either. Even if she did go through chemo, there was nothing stopping her from dying or the cancer coming back. So she decided, to go through with the pregnancy, gave birth and died. because regardless of the outcome, chances are she would have died anyway.

            Well, there ISN’T. Most of those abortions are by women who can’t afford to have a child. Unless society makes it easier for women to give birth and raise their children with little worry on how to provide for them, that’s how it’s going to be.

          • lady_black

            That’s great for her. I’m not sure that’s the decision I would make. And I DO deserve to decide for myself, don’t I?

          • fiona64

            I didn’t know that so many people here have been affected by abortion and would be offended.

            You do know that there are pro-choice women who’ve never had an abortion, right? RIGHT? Well, now you’ve learned something.

            But you have no idea about my personal life to know what I do for hungry
            and starving children, abused children or foster children or sending
            money overseas.

            Jack shit, if you’re typical of the anti-choice …

            Most women feel nothing but *relief* after their abortions. If they’re expressing regret at all, it’s at the circumstances that led to the decision, not the decision itself … unless they’re being nagged by guilt-peddlers like yourself.

            Pro-tip: “I’m sorry you were offended” is not an apology.

          • lady_black

            See, the thing is… you can’t use MY body to “protect” anything. Not even yourself! Get it??? “Protect” anything you like, but use your own damn self. I wouldn’t risk a paper cut for you, with an entitled attitude like yours.

          • lady_black

            And you’re right. I have been affected by abortion. I was a little girl and mom was pregnant with a wanted pregnancy when she started bleeding. She was only 12 weeks along, so there was never going to be any “baby.” The thing I remember most is how abortion was illegal, and she had to be at death’s door before the doctor would do the abortion. I remember being scared to lose my mother. Shame on you.

          • P. McCoy

            Cult member alert. Women aren’t disposable breeders here. Take that the back to your cult leaders.

          • fiona64

            An embryo is not an infant. I’m sorry you were homeschooled and thus did not learn this.

          • Mercydivine

            All stages of life…Why do you continue to devalue life? Would you want someone to devalue the gift and value of your life?

          • fiona64

            Why do you continue to make such completely idiotic statements? Again, I’m sorry you were homeschooled … but I value the life of a born, sapient, sentient woman who is actually present than that of an embryo that merely represents potential.

          • Arekushieru

            Why do you continue to devalue the lives of Pro-Choice women like my mother? MY life was an ACTUAL gift. Meaning that my mother WANTED me, and that I actually appreciate this life. Value is a qualitative measurement, not a quantitative one.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            #2. Are you in favor of criminalizing abortion?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Big whoop-de-shit.
            Illegal abortion and sepsis and hemorrhage in childbirth are the three leading causes of maternal death worldwide.
            Prove abortion is murder and show us you are not just a sick liar and a bully. Do it right now. I will wait.
            And I FLAGGED YOU FOR YOUR SICKENING AND EGREGIOUS INSULT TO EVERY PROCHOICE WOMAN ON THIS SITE.
            Do it again and I flag you again. That dog does not hunt on this site.

          • P. McCoy

            Savita’s was hurt by the Catholic Church and a Catholic country that murdered her. Where’s your outrage. But you don’t care do you for you Savita’s was a disposable breeder.

          • lady_black

            No. You know what isn’t the answer? Expecting poor women to gestate babies they can’t afford, and hand over the results of her labor to human traffickers, a.k.a the global adoption market, a.k.a. the modern day slavers. I’m a bit of a historian and this kind of thinking is skating right on the edge of slavery. The slave masters impregnated their slaves, and thought of it as doing these women a big favor. They even managed to convince some of the not-too-bright slave women that it WAS a big favor. Then to settle whatever debt, the human flesh peddlers could sell the product of the woman’s labor on the open market. And you have the gall to come here and claim “abortion hurts women” but selling their flesh and blood to the highest bidder is a completely neutral proposition that doesn’t harm women in the least. After all, we’re just containers for the fetus, and livestock. Right, Massa??

          • fiona64

            And since no one is talking about murder, your point is moot. Thanks for playing “anti-choicers cannot read for comprehension.” We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

          • Mercydivine

            “anti-choicers cannot read for comprehension” Disparaging and personal attacks suggests that you lost the argument. It is those who reject the value of each and every life who fail to comprehend that one can never justify the taking of an innocent human life.

          • fiona64

            You haven’t presented an argument, sweetie … just a bunch of bumper-sticker slogans. Learn the difference.

          • JamieHaman

            What are your solutions to abortion? Bumper sticker slogans don’t solve a single thing.

          • Arekushieru

            A fetus is neither innocent nor guilty, it doesn’t have the CAPACITY to be either. If it DID, it would be guilty. After all, to be a person, one has to have intent (because, if they don’t, then you are saying that women and fetuses have equal values when using decidedly UNEQUAL criteria to measure what makes each a person) and, since fetuses are the ones that cause pregnancy, their intent proves them to be GUILTY. Yet, going back to my previous assertion, you would never deign to punish a fetus the way you would a woman for being ‘guilty’ which means you do NOT inherently value even fetuses and WOMEN the same way. OOPS.

            Also, if you say a fetus is just as valuable as a woman, you just devalued and dehumanized women.

            You’ve already MADE disparaging and person attacks on the women, here. Or do you think calling them murderers, dehumanizing and devaluing them, and telling them that they should have fewer rights than anyone ELSE born, is just another way of saying “Have a nice day”?

            You REJECT the value of women, and you JUSTIFY taking the life of an ACTUAL innocent human being. So, yes, I guess you ARE right, after all. Oops.

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion is neither murder nor killing. Abortion does not involve children. And even wanted pregnancies hurt women, even more so than wanted abortions I would venture. Refuse to choose THAT violence, by ENFORCING it on women.

          • fiona64

            Abortion is 14 times safer than gestation and delivery. My wanted pregnancy almost killed me. If my tubal ligation fails, there will be an abortion so fast that your ignorant, self-righteous head will spin right off. Learn to live with that.

      • expect_resistance

        Thank you I was wondering what was going on.

      • Lieutenant Nun

        Woot! You can post links too. Grats on your ten abortions. I hope you got em all at once.

        • Shan

          LOL! Yeah, I had to take off work three days and fly to Switzerland but it was WORTH it!

        • Jennifer Starr

          Oh well. I expect I’ll have to get pregnant first….

      • P. McCoy

        Arguing with cult members is like trying to convince a woman in a rubber room that she is not Cleopatra, a complete waste of time. Let’s formulate strategies on how to break and imprison the forced birther movement.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Point out how sexually bent they are for one thing. Alvin Green got arrested for showing someone weird pictures in a library. What is the essential difference between the library and the women’s clinic? The people who tend to walk in the clinic have female sexual organs?
          A young escort has been filming. Take a look at these fooking fruitbats:
          https://vine.co/KatieSpeak

          • lady_black

            This is inspiring me to start volunteering as a clinic escort.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You would be good at it. You have a cool nurse’s head. I would hurt one of them or myself trying to beat one of them to death. Bipolar here.

    • lady_black

      Hey why don’t you go and correct your lifesitenews bu