• R0chambeau

    So women want complete autonomy when it comes to decisions about a fetus that was created by two people?

    Ok, fine. Let’s see of you like that same autonomy when paying for it.

    • lady_black

      Paying for what? The abortion? Where is it written that paying for an abortion is an obligation placed on men? It’s a kind thing to do, I suppose, but by no means a requirement. No man is ever obligated to pay child support for a fetus either. Don’t like it? Try gestating one yourself. Good luck.

    • Goldenblack

      Women want complete autonomy over their bodies – I suspect that if we ever get to male pregnancy (*) with safe and trouble-free transferal of embryos, any decisions about a fetus might resemble your comment above.

      (*) There’s a fair amount of research going into this, after all.

    • goatini

      If males do not want to support their children, males need to use a condom if they do not intend to procreate with a female partner. Each and every time.

      • Ed

        If women don’t want to get pregnant they should use birth control. Do you realize you hurt the pro choice argument by being indifferent towards men in this position? Opting out can be a option for both.

        • lady_black

          She’s telling you exactly how you can “opt out.” Is there something wrong with you? Once you impregnate a woman there is no “opting out.” You do not control her body. Only the woman is pregnant, and only she can opt out of pregnancy. I’m not indifferent toward men, I’m simply stating a fact. Child support is the right of the child, and you’ll never change that with any amount of whining and being an obtuse crank. BOTH parents have to support a child. It’s not limited to the man.

          • iliketurtlez

            You don’t like it when pro lifers tell you how to “opt out”. You see it as sexist and controlling. Yet you turn around and use the same arguments pro lifers use against men.

          • Unicorn Farm

            No. I’ll repost what I wrote above:

            It is, of course, ideal, if women who do not wish to become pregnant use birth control, etc. Using birth control or remaining abstinent is a smart idea for both men and women to avoid unwanted pregnancy. It is not sexist to make that suggestion. However, if women do not use birth control, or if their birth control fails, this does not justify abrogating their right to bodily autonomy. That is what sexists argue- women that have sex lose their right to bodily autonomy. No one is arguing that men should lose their right to bodily autonomy if they have sex.

            Do you see the difference between making a suggestion for smart behavior that is more likely to lead to the results you want, and arguing that women lose their right to bodily autonomy because they have sex?

        • goatini

          Did I say that females should not use contraception?

          Of course I didn’t.

          Mind your own procreative organs.

        • goatini

          What exactly “hurt(s) the pro-choice argument” by advocating that all sexually active persons, male and female, use contraception if procreation is not desired?

          I suspect the (ha) “indifferent towards men” part is that guys just don’t like to wear condoms. TBSS, poor you.

        • goatini

          I advocate for all persons, male and female, to use contraception if they do not intend to procreate.

          I suspect the “indifferent towards men” nonsense is about the fact that males don’t like to wear condoms.

        • goatini

          Only in the insecure, paranoid, stunted MRA mind is the concept of ALL sexually active persons, male and female, being responsible for their own contraception, “hurt(ing) the pro choice argument”.

          And it’s quite obvious that the MRAs posting here are very resentful of the idea of their taking personal responsibility for contraception. We’re “indifferent” to them for saying this.

      • iliketurtlez

        Pro lifers say the same thing about women who want to get an abortion. You have a lot in common.

        • goatini

          Do you have some kind of problem about being responsible for your own contraception?

          When in the initial stages of a relationship, I NEVER believed any guy who told me “I have a vasectomy” or “I’m sterile”. I ALWAYS used contraception – because it was my responsibility to do so.

          I advocate for BOTH males and females to ALWAYS use contraception if they do not intend to procreate. Would sure cut down on unwanted pregnancies if BOTH parties used contraception. Don’t you agree?

    • Ramanusia

      Here’s a thought, if you don’t want to be a father, which entails supporting a child, then don’t do the things that lead to procreation. As a male, once you’ve ejaculated, you’ve exercised all the choice you have right to.

      • Nicolai Rublev

        Here’s a thought, if a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant then she should keep her legs closed. Abortion problem solved? Well it’s the same logic, and lack of empathy, as you have proposed.

        The real flaw is the systematic failings to educate young men about their rights and lack thereof.

        • Ramanusia

          See, that’s not much of a thought at all, since a man has control over where he deposits his gametes and a woman doesn’t, nor is she in control of ovulation. “Keeping her legs closed” isn’t as effective as a man keeping his pants zipped, since your suggested method has no effect on rapists, and men who won’t use condoms, or those who deliberately sabotage their condoms so that they can control and abuse a woman.

          So, no, you simplistic fool, making the statement that once a man has deposited his gametes, he has no further say in the results unless his partner allows him, in no way addresses the abortion issue.
          It’s actually not the same logic, since the biological reality is vastly different between men and women in terms of reproduction if only the health risks and locale.

          The “empathy” factor doesn’t make any sense at all, a man who is trying to control the medical choices of a woman in no way earns empathy or sympathy.

          The real flaw is the systematic failure in you and others to teach boys that sex means that they risk parenthood, and that after they’ve ejaculated they don’t get to make decisions about the receptacle, should it be a living, breathing woman who does not wish to have his input in her decision making.

          Teach boys that it’s honorable to keep their pants zipped, and to make good choices when it comes to partners, (you know, the same things we teach young girls?) and perhaps we might have a shot at reducing unwanted pregnancies.

          As long as you vilify women, while praising men for the same behavior, you’re failing.

          When it comes to abortion, it’s a far more complex issue than I believe you understand. It’s a medical issue, and if it’s not your body, it’s not your decision, regardless of whether you’ve zipped or position of your legs.

          The real flaw is that you’re negating the basic human rights of women to their own bodies that you never, ever, ever touch with men. If a man can never be required to sacrifice his body and his health at the demands of his sexual partner, he has nor right to demand that of her.

          • Ed

            The last thing we need is more of this asinine throw back blame shifting that puts all burden on one sex for what both do together. We need to teach boys that their society has some backwards people who don’t respect women’s agency and insist on blaming men for everything women might do wrong. That’s where I would start.

            “Teach boys that it’s honorable to keep their pants zipped, and to make good choices when it comes to partners,”

            Then it’s honorable to tell girls the same. it’s called equality.

            “The real flaw is the systematic failure in you and others to teach boys that sex means that they risk parenthood”

            Seriously who doesn’t know this? Why are you gendering the issue? The sexism from you is over the top.

            “The real flaw is that you’re negating the basic human rights of women to their own bodies that you never, ever, ever touch with men.”

            This is coming from the sexist. …

        • lady_black

          Women aren’t going to stop having sex. We might stop having sex with YOU, but that’s hardly the same thing, is it? Use your head. If you don’t want to impregnate a woman, have a vasectomy, wear a condom, sleep with men or have non-vaginal sex. I would never suggest to you that you “keep your legs closed.” That’s demeaning.

          • Rachael Colleen

            Exactly. Thank you!
            Why is it that whenever this subject is discussed, sex is only ever about procreation?
            For most people that is NOT the reason we have sex.
            It’s fun, creates an amazing closeness with your partner, it feels Fantastic and it’s good for you!

            So people who say that we should just “keep our legs closed” if we don’t want to get pregnant are ridiculous fuckwits.
            Yes, there is birth control but for some it’s hard to get…and that’s a whole separate issue.
            Our sexuality always has been and always will be a very important part of being human.
            Many consider it to be scared.

            Ugh, that argument irritates the crap out of me…

        • expect_resistance

          Hello. Women’s reproductive rights are under attack. Not men’s reproductive rights. Please get real.

    • King Rat

      Then men should be forced to foot the bill for the gestation and birth then too. Oh, and any physical harm visited upon the woman by the fetus should be replicated in the man.

      • Ramanusia

        Exactly!

      • expect_resistance

        Love it.

    • VeggieTart

      Given that it’s a woman’s body carrying the fetus and that it’s the woman who will do the majority of the child care, yes, the final decision is hers. If a guy doesn’t want to risk causing a pregnancy, he can wear a condom or get a vasectomy; hopefully the male birth control pill will be available soon. Until men can get pregnant, their rights end with their orgasm.

      • Halophilic NC

        “Until men can get pregnant, their rights end with their orgasm.” They don’t have to. The State could financially support the child in lieu of the man who doesn’t want to be the father.

        What’s the downside except for increased taxes? Let’s make abortions fully available and state supported while we’re at it. This is the kind of thing I’d love to pay taxes for.

        • VeggieTart

          So would I. But you have people who don’t want their tax dollars going for abortion and are fighting to cut funds to poor families. Their concern for life ends once the baby has been born.

        • expect_resistance

          Nothing you said is based in reality. from the article, “As they are used by MRAs in arguing for men’s “right” to abortion and beyond, these assumptions together absolve men of all responsibility from necessary negotiation regarding sexual practices. This not only works to disenfranchise women, but also obstructs sexual freedom for women and men.”

    • JamieHaman

      If you want absolute control of a fetus, carry one. Can’t get pregnant? Learn to negotiate. Accept the reality that YOU are not the OWNER or BOSS of any body except your own.

  • expect_resistance

    Great article. Excellent explanation of the MRAs tactics. I’m so sick of hearing this argument by the MRAs.

    • Ed

      MRA’s don’t support the positions he claimed they did so how on earth is this an excellent explanation if it’s FULL OF LIES? Then again imagine integrity matters more to those who have it.

      • sophie

        And, since all you can manage is attacking the author, you have zero integrity, so be careful about throwing that word around.
        The article is NOT “full of lies,” and the author is speaking the truth. You and others of your ilk cannot handle the reality that women are autonomous human beings, perfectly capable of making their own reproductive decisions with or without male cooperation.
        Interesting how the MRA’s have literally swarmed this article, like the nasty wasps they are.

        • ohreginald

          So we’re not allowed a say to dispute the authors incorrect statements? I suggest you know nothing of the Male Human Rights Movement if you think this article is true.

          I like this though:
          “the reality that women are autonomous human beings, perfectly capable of making their own reproductive decisions with or without male cooperation.”

          I don’t think any MRA disputes that, we just follow the logic – the unilateral decision leaves the responsibility with the woman. Her body, her choice, her responsibility.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “I don’t think any MRA disputes that”
            You clearly haven’t read enough of the musings of your own “movement.”
            “…we just follow the logic – the unilateral decision leaves the responsibility with the woman. Her body, her choice, her responsibility.”
            No. The right of child support belongs to the child, and arises out of its right to be cared for by its parents.

          • ohreginald

            How about it’s right to be cared for by both parents? If both, why not have agreement of both? If both parents why is abortion an option? Adoption? Abandonment? All things a woman can choose to do.

            say I do it you, for example obtain your DNA and make a child, or get a pet, and in this world I identify you as the payee, do you honestly still stand by the responsibilities I’ve put on you no matter your objections? Would you call it fair? The kid/pet/whatever needs care and you’re liable

            By the way, I’d like you to cite the nonsense you’ve attributed to this movement because there are no campaigns for forced abortion or even against – MR is property choice and for bodily autonomy, you have your facts wrong

          • Unicorn Farm

            “If both parents why is abortion an option?”

            Because the right to financial support exists; the right to another’s body does not.

            “say I do it you, for example obtain your DNA and make a child, or get a pet, and in this world I identify you as the payee, do you honestly still stand by the responsibilities I’ve put on you no matter your objections? Would you call it fair? The kid/pet/whatever needs care and you’re liable.”
            This is asinine. 1) DNA is freely given. 2) children have a right to be cared for. It’s either by their parents or by the state, and as a society we chose to make the parents liable for support before we ask the state.

            “By the way, I’d like you to cite the nonsense you’ve attributed to this movement because there are no campaigns for forced abortion or even against – MR is property choice and for bodily autonomy, you have your facts wrong”

            First, I never mentioned forced abortions. Second, you don’t get to tell me what I have read and experienced. I will not post links because they are frankly not safe for work. You could check out anything on Roosh V’s forums, his little shit blog “return of kings,” check out A voice for men, heartiste, sunshine mary, or any of the MRA sites linked on the Manboobz blog.

          • ohreginald

            Right, see right there you can’t prove what you’ve said, then you’ve conflated red pill and pick up artist sites with men’s rights. The thing is, I suspect you know you’ve done that, that you DO know the difference but you’re being petty.

            As for avfm, if you had any interest on educating yourself you’d know what that site is about, but again, I can see you’re blinded by propaganda

            I digress, you, like others here are hiding from the fact you don’t believe in equality or even responsibility. You’ve wound yourselves up over a completely fallacious article – the MRAs here agree with pro choice, agree that the women have the right to bodily autonomy, don’t claim any rights to your uteruses, but you’re angry at what? The current system favors you anyway – you can dump out as many kids as you like with no consequences, someone else always pays. Or if you don’t want it, you have all the options.

            However, if men say they’re not happy with forced fatherhood you flip shit, as if forced pregnancy isn’t abhorrent to you. You hide behind the childs rights, but you really avoiding personal accountability re your unilateral decisions and equality – you keep saying “both parents” “both parents”, cool, then both parents get a say, correct? Do you want fathers or just a paycheck? Because those fathers should have rights too, you can’t expect society to work by disenfranchising half the population or enslaving them

          • expect_resistance

            I love Manboobz blog.

          • expect_resistance

            MRAs are not about gender equality. Actually it’s quite the opposite.

            From the article, “MRAs push for a more patriarchal society—one that’s organized by “natural” gender roles and supposedly gender-blind but actually male-dominated state governance.”

          • expect_resistance

            MRAs don’t use logic.

          • Cactus_Wren

            “I don’t think any MRA disputes that, we just follow the logic – the
            unilateral decision leaves the responsibility with the woman. Her body,
            her choice, her responsibility.”

            And I’m sure you’ll readily acknowledge the corollary — that if all the responsibility rests on the woman, then all the rights are hers as well? She decides where the child, once it’s born, lives and with whom. Custody is hers to decide, visitation entirely at her option. Right?

          • ohreginald

            Well yes, obviously. You do know what unilateral means, right? If the decision is joint then obviously you have a joint agreement of care and whatever. I’m not sure of your point.

            The mother wants the child, the father doesn’t, then yes, she does whatever she wants, does that not make sense? He never wanted it so he doesn’t care, there is no custody argument or visitation

            However, if they both want the child, the child is born and they both raise it, is that not simple? Custody arrangements as per marriage or court order etc etc.

          • Cactus_Wren

            NO. If all the responsibility falls on her, then ALL the rights are hers. SHE decides who gets custody. The child is born and SHE raises it or SHE decides who raises it. Custody arrangements as per HER decision. If the default is that all the responsibility is the woman’s, then the rights are hers as well. ALL of them.

          • ohreginald

            It’s hard to follow what you’re going on about. She signed the contract for the whatever so so gets the monthly bill. That simple. If she wants to bin it, leave it somewhere, sell it, give it away it’s all on her – I’m not arguing against that.

            But because it’s hard to tell what you’re on about, I’ll pick out one bit and say sure the rights and responsibilities are hers, but she can’t force them on someone else – like I said, she signed the contract, it’s her name and address, she gets the bill. Also, there is no “custody” because no one is disputing ownership, it’s hers

          • Cactus_Wren

            But if custody, or as you whimsically choose to term it “ownership”, is disputed — it can’t BE disputed. If they have had a relationship for some time, and then they break up but he wants joint custody of the kid — tough shit. The rights are all hers. They have to be. If all the responsibility falls on the woman, then ALL the rights fall on the woman. If he wants visitation rights, he only gets them if SHE says its okay, and only WHEN she chooses. You can’t have it both ways. If all the responsibility falls on the woman, during pregnancy and after … then all the rights default to the woman, during pregnancy and after.

          • ohreginald

            Oh mate, you are hard work. When was I disagreeing with that? In your scenario did they both want the kid? That’s a joint decision. Or did he not want the kid and she had it anyway? Because that’s unilateral.

            Seriously, read again what I’ve said. Yes, if she’s decided to have the kid on her own, it’s all on her. There is no custody, there is no visitation, if the guy opted out.

            What both ways are you talking about? Are you some sort of special case? Seriously, what are you arguing for or against?

          • Cactus_Wren

            I’m saying that whether they both “wanted the kid” or not DOESN’T MATTER. Under your concept, responsibility defaults automatically to the woman, ALL of it — therefore rights default to the woman, ALL of them.

          • ohreginald

            Well, no not really. Because if both made the choice to have it, both opted into the contract, we have
            to assume they’re both into raising the kid. both liable.

            What you’ve said makes no sense
            insofar as the few rights the father currently has get
            removed completely. So what you want is only mothers, no fathers willing
            or otherwise? is that really what you advocate?

            Under my concept, and please try to follow, I’ll
            use small words – both parents get a say, but because she has the womb, if she goes ahead without father support,
            that’s what she continues with. Are you still with me? If she gets
            father support they do as normal, both pay, both raise etc. etc. This concept puts the accountability squarely
            with those who decide to bring the child into the world – if a woman can
            give her kid up, opt out of being a parent, so should the father be
            able to.

            Is English not your first language?

            its a contract, whoever signs pays, no sign, no say, no pay – the UNILATERAL, independent, sole decision by the mother that disregards all else, lands the responsibility with her. the JOINT, together, unified, collective decision is acceptance of joint, mutual responsibility. is any of this getting through to you?

          • cjvg

            However the law explicitly states that if a woman wants to give up her child for abortion she must get permission from the biological father!
            The law also explicitly states that he has the right to contest the adoption at any point, even if he refused all contact with her or the baby!

            A man does not have to support or pay for the costs of pregnancy and or child birth but he has the RIGHT to stop her from giving the child up for adoption!
            So you concede that these “rights” should be terminated immediately?!

            A rapist has parental rights in 30 states even if he has never paid a dime in child support, so you will immediately start advocating for the termination of these rights also?!

          • expect_resistance

            Yep, evidence of a patriarchal society. MRAs want male domination not gender equality.

          • cjvg

            So women get pregnant all by themselves?

          • expect_resistance

            You can argue anything you want. From the article, “Central to the political agenda of MRAs is floating the idea that men somehow have a “right” to an abortion, or more accurately a right to interfere with a woman’s right to an abortion. MRAs argue that women’s autonomy is directly oppressive to men because men are disallowed input as to whether or not women should give birth. Thus, they argue that the state should intervene by forcing women to consult men before they can legally abort a pregnancy or that women or doctors should be held legally accountable to men after an abortion has taken place, usurping their right to self-determine.”

        • Masta solanas

          MRAs do not like their movement mischaracterized as is patently done here.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m sure they don’t want their misogyny pointed out.

      • expect_resistance

        Bullshit they don’t.

      • JamieHaman

        Why don’t you share something from an MRA site that proves the author of this article is lying?

      • expect_resistance

        From the article, “MRAs push for a more patriarchal society—one that’s organized by “natural” gender roles and supposedly gender-blind but actually male-dominated state governance. “

    • Halophilic NC

      Just out of curiosity, can you cite several of these arguments that you’ve heard from MRAs since you’re encountering so many of them that you’re sick of them?

      Because my experience with the MHRM movement is that they are by and large pro-bodily autonomy and pro-abortion. This entire opinion piece looks like a strawman.

      • expect_resistance

        1. Person experience.
        2. Being violently threatened by MRA troll here. Threatening to hunt me down and kill me. Good enough for ya? Then again I don’t give a rats ass what you think.

        • ohreginald

          1. Person experience.
          2. Being violently threatened by MRA troll here. Threatening to hunt me down and kill me. Good enough for ya?

          Well no, not really, that proves nothing and by your own admission the person was a troll, we don’t know it was a real MRA, and since when is personal experience proof? and this is the important one, nothing you’ve said has anything to do with MRAs and abortion rights, particularly responding to the post you responded to

          • expect_resistance

            The “troll” identified as MRA and he posted the violent threats he made to me on his website too. His website was an identified MRA supporting website and he identified as an MRA. The moderators here take violent threats seriously and told me if needed they would involve the police. So no, I’m not imagining it. So stop trying to gaslight me.

          • ohreginald

            How is that gaslighting? You have cited anything, you responded to another post with irrelevance. Keep on topic, we aren’t discussing your troll, but the evidence of the MRM and abortion rights. Again, what you’ve posted isn’t evidence of anything

            Not just that, but even linking to the troll posts at least allows other MRAs to deal with and “excommunicate” him. Is he known, where does he post, what websites can we blacklist etc etc.

            After all, you’d want the crazies got rid of from your own organisations, right? And you’d expect us to self regulate to some degree. OR have you just blindly tarred us all with the same brush?

          • expect_resistance

            You responded to me dumbshit. Look up “gas lighting” do your own homework.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Keep on topic, we aren’t discussing your troll, but the evidence of the MRM and abortion rights”

            Her troll IS evidence. You choose not to believe her because you don’t want to.

            “Not just that, but even linking to the troll posts at least allows other MRAs to deal with and “excommunicate” him. Is he known, where does he post, what websites can we blacklist etc etc.”
            Y’all have a lot of MRAs to “blacklist.” Better start looking. We are under no obligation to identify and spoon-feed you people whose position you may want to distance yourself from.

          • expect_resistance

            Thank you. MRAs are cheerleaders for patriarchy and have no interest in gender equity or ending sexism.

          • Masta solanas

            What website? I would have to see some proof on this also as it is common for feminists to falsely accuse MRAs of such actions.

            Secondly, the personal actions of an individual doesn’t reflect the movement in itself. Even if he identities as a MRA and did the things you said, it doesn’t negate the positions and ideals of the men’s rights movement.

          • expect_resistance

            So easy to dismiss what I say by calling me a liar. Some folks here might remember the ‘MRA troll invasion” a few years ago (I think 2011). The websites are, “Stand Your Ground” and a blog by “Captain Courageous.” I don’t think the blog is around anymore because it got banned from bloodspot for abuse. You can do a Google search for the blog “Glenn’s Cult” for some examples of this crap. I can’t post a link or it will go into moderation. glennscult (dot) bloodspot (dot) com

          • expect_resistance

            P.S. Source on that claim.

            If he was “parading around” as an MRA you better find him and make him change his ways. It’s making MRAs look very bad.

          • Masta solanas

            The behavior of one person isn’t going to do anything, we learned this many times from watching a plethora of feminists behave badly.

          • expect_resistance

            The “troll” identified as MRA and he posted the violent threats he made to me on his website too. His website was an identified MRA supporting website and he identified as an MRA. The moderators here take violent threats seriously and told me if needed they would involve the police. So no, I’m not imagining it. So stop trying to gaslight me.

    • Masta solanas

      It’s a horrible article. You’d really have to know nothing about the men’s rights movement to write something like this. This story is even worse than the content that biased deluded feminist websites such as manboobz, rawstory, or Jezebel put out.

      • cjvg

        However, all we have to do is read your comments and we get a real clear view of what MRA’s think.
        Turns out that kind off confirmed all the article is saying.

  • L-dan

    Thanks for the in-depth analysis of this vein of argument. So many ways in which the “I made this so I get a say in what you do with your body” argument fails. The cake/ingredient analogy really ties it into other oppressions, which I appreciate as I work on trying to see that wider framework.

    • Ed

      It was a pack of lies about MRA’s which is pretty unsettling. That kind of lying shows zero integrity and the abuse of academic jargon was telling.

      He said:
      ” Looking through this intersectional lens reveals that the argument for an alleged men’s right to an abortion relies on racist conceptions of bodies as property, and heterosexist, traditionalist ideas about female eroticism.”

      The term “intersection” is not a catch all pass for manufacturing none existent relationships between forms of oppression. A white women is not effectively oppressed by notions of bodily ownership derived from black slavery. That gender issues stands independent of race and dominion over spouses bodies is a patriarchal tradition going back eons across cultures and continents. It’s always been a matter of protecting the fathers linage rather than one of race.

      The inclusion of race under intersections really crossed the line for me. I am so sick of seeing this disrespect for race as an issue and abusing it a way to spice up a gender argument is pretty vile. Feminism itself is saturated with race issues and white women co-opting the material and language of those who fought long and hard against racial hatred is among them. White women weren’t hated, they were supported by white men. To use the framing blacks used on race is abhorrent and shows no regard for the depth of their struggle.

      If those white women take a young black man and force him through their position of power to push issues this way it’s effectively colonization. Black people don’t belong on white feminism’s social justice plantation. They are not merely a intersection in a gender paradigm. Patriarchy does not trump white supremacy. The mass of young black men in our nations prisons is not a side issue.

      • lady_black

        I’m willing to bet you’re a white man, therefore you’re obviously more of an expert on race than the author. Right now my eyes are rolling so far I can see my brain. It’s the same struggle, sweetheart. Both women and black men were owned, enslaved and supported by white men. That makes NONE of that ok, Skippy. The only difference is that black men were freed from white patriarchal control much sooner than women of any race, and in large part, women are still struggling to be heard and have agency over even their own bodies. Anti-choice men would just LOVE to imprison us as they do black men for daring to have sex with no intention of being a mother. Criminalize abortion and you make criminals of women just as your racist drug laws make criminals of men right now.

        • Halophilic NC

          I don’t identify as an MHRA, but I truly don’t understand what reason anyone would have to conflate them with the pro-life movement. Just go to r/Mensrights and find me all the upvotes for pro-lifers to set me straight. Or the pro-life articles and posts on avoicformen….I’m just not seeing it.

          • L-dan

            They’re not being conflated with the pro-life movement, it’s being noted that there’s some underlying attitudes that both groups have going on with regard to their language regarding women and their rights.

          • expect_resistance

            Excellent point!

        • iliketurtlez

          ‘m willing to bet you’re a white man, therefore you’re obviously more of an expert on race than the author.

          So you’re prejudging someone based on their race and gender? You just outed yourself as a sexist and racist in one sentence.

          • expect_resistance

            No.

      • L-dan

        Since the writer is a young black man, specifically noted as being part of a Young Writer’s Program, I don’t really expect him to sound like a fully fledged academic feminist. But I don’t really see where you’re getting ‘abuse’ of academic jargon there. It’s a thesis sentence, and not as strained a one as some in academia.

        Additionally, you start with accusations of a pack of lies about MRAs without actually mentioning any. The article is about one particular set of arguments used by anti-choice MRAs, which isn’t even all of them.

        I don’t see the article claiming that what white women are currently experiencing is as bad as slavery, so much as pointing out that the idea of owning other people is, at base, a horrible idea no matter where it shows up; slavery being the really glaring and horrible example hovering over our history.

        Looking at an article by a man (who can’t experience abortion) who is black (with that lived experience of racism) looking at commentary by MRAs and going…’that sounds like racist underpinnings’. Following that thread of though offers, to me, an interesting look at an angle taken by a particular group of (mostly) white men to abortion, that notes that those guys belong to a group that historically claimed some variety of ownership to all bodies that weren’t theirs. That’s not a non-existent intersection.

        Does it address the issues this country has with young black men? No. Nor does it address the very different set of issues that face black women vs. white women with regard to reproductive justice. There are other articles floating around there on that topic, even if not enough. I don’t really expect one college writer to hit everything with one article.

      • expect_resistance

        Do you think you sounds intellectual with your word salad?

  • lady_black

    Marcus, how about the plain old principle that men have no abortion “rights” because they are never pregnant. I like everything you said, but that’s what it boils down to, 100% of the burden of pregnancy falls on women. He gets no veto.

    • screagle101

      The problem is, he is subjected to her whims without equal protection under the law without any recourse. Mras want to change that.

      • lady_black

        What “recourse?” A male can no more force a woman to carry a pregnancy than he can force her to have an abortion. Once there is an actual child breathing oxygen and needing to be fed, I couldn’t care less about “men’s rights.” The child has a right to be supported by both parents. The “problem” is that those who thing like you are little boys who believe this has anything to do with your rights. It doesn’t. Child support is the right of the child.

        • screagle101

          nobody wants to take womens’ rights away from them. No one can force a woman into a parental situation that she is unwilling to accept. That’s why women have options. Abortion, adoption, safe-haven laws all can relieve a woman of the burden of parenthood, regardless of her reason. MRAs generally support a woman’s right to choose. But they also demand that a man be given a similar right to choose. A man should not be forced into parental requirements that he isn’t prepared for any more than a woman should be. A woman that chooses not to be a mother is pro-choice. A man that does the same is a deadbeat, and soon-to-be an inmate. MRAs are not proponents of abandoning children, but they doe support the idea of a male equivalent to abortion. A legal dissolution of paternal responsibility during a time window not to exceed the window that a woman can legally abort. After all, that child is genetically 50% him and its gender is 100% determined by the man

          • goatini

            “But they also demand that a man be given a similar right to choose.”

            It’s called a condom. Use one each and every time you do not want to procreate. So easy.

          • screagle101

            Then say that to every woman that’s ever had an abortion or adoption. Women can buy condoms too. And on top of that, they can choose to not have sex with a guy without one. Or the pill. Or depo. Or nouveau ring. Or a diaphragm. Or contraceptive foam, female condoms, or better yet, oral. Throats don’t get pregnant

          • goatini

            I advocate for all persons, male and female, to use contraception if they do not wish to procreate. Sure would make things a lot less complicated.

          • Carrie

            Women do use any/all of those things when they don’t want to risk becoming a parent. Why can’t men also choose to NOT RISK becoming a parent? A man who simply asks an imminent sex partner, “are you on the Pill or whatever?”, is not doing due diligence. If a man knows so very little about his sexual partners that he doesn’t even know if she’ll choose to carry-to-term or not, then he ought not be risking his entire future on the gambit that she won’t.
            Condom, vasectomy, abstinence. No one can control her choices, but her. No one can control your choices, but YOU.

          • screagle101

            Why shouldn’t a man be allowed to legally dissolve paternal rights and responsibilities the same way a woman can legally dissolve her maternal responsibility?

          • expect_resistance

            Cuz we all love oral so much….. Oh wait, I love it when my lover gives me oral and I climax like crazy.

          • squirrely girl

            “But they also demand that a man be given a similar right to choose.”

            Men are given EXACTLY the same rights as women are in this situation… the right to make reproductive decisions about their own bodies.

            The failing would appear to be that some men wish to be able to make decisions for the woman’s body simply because the outcome may have an impact on them at a later point.

            These men may not like the “lack of control” once sperm leaves their bodies… but they also have none of the risks to life and health inherent with pregnancy.

            The day men can become pregnant and carry those pregnancies to term, men will have the right to make decisions about whether or not they wish to put their bodies through that.

            Until that day, these men just need to accept that they have no right to make decisions about how other people choose to use their bodies… you know… like how the world works for everything else…

          • Chris Moore

            “The failing would appear to be that some men wish to be able to make decisions for the woman’s body simply because the outcome may have an impact on them at a later point.”

            How does LPS have an impact on a woman’s body? If men were given a very small window in which to choose, so that the woman had plenty of time to make an educated decision on whether to abort or continue, how is that “making decisions for the woman’s body”?

            Unless you are saying that the man having control over whether he becomes a father impacts the woman’s decision making, that I can understand. But, really, a man must alter his decision making ability when a woman decides to abort as well.

          • expect_resistance

            Great example of MRA whining.

          • Arekushieru

            Because there IS no such right in regards to bodily autonomy for ANYTHING else. A woman’s decision whether or not to carry a fetus to term does NOT impact anyone’s body but her own. If and when it does, THEN men have a case. OOPS.

          • Chris Moore

            The question was “How does LPS have an impact on a woman’s body?”. I asked that because of what squirrely girl asked. I understand she didn’t favor LPS. I was asking how it effected a woman’s body.

          • expect_resistance

            The MRAs want special rights. They have no interest in gender equality just whatever serves them better.

          • screagle101

            Nobody wants to dictate to women how she controls her own body. MRAs just want men to be given the same option of parenthood as a woman. Why should a man be forced to be a parent any more than woman? Imagine if women were incarcerated for choosing to not be mothers. That’s the current situation men actually face. And contraception is the responsibility of both parties so don’t give me that “he should’ve used a condom” shit.

          • expect_resistance

            Bull.

            From the article, “Central to the political agenda of MRAs is floating the idea that men somehow have a “right” to an abortion, or more accurately a right to interfere with a woman’s right to an abortion.
            MRAs argue that women’s autonomy is directly oppressive to men because men are disallowed input as to whether or not women should give birth.

            Pay special attention to this part of the article “Thus, they argue that the state should intervene by forcing women to consult men before they can legally abort a pregnancy or that women or doctors should be held legally accountable to men after an abortion has taken place, usurping their right to self-determine.”

        • ohreginald

          “Once there is an actual child breathing oxygen and needing to be fed, I couldn’t care less about “men’s rights.” The child has a right to be supported by both parents. ”

          So why would you support bringing a child into the world you have no intention or capability of supporting? That’s just irresponsible

          • lady_black

            One again for the “slow” section: A child has the right to be supported by BOTH parents.” In what part of that did I imply that women should not expect to support their children? I said they shouldn’t expect to do it alone.

          • ohreginald

            Oh right, then what part of that is covered by abortion? Or in fact adoption? Or abandonment? You say slow section like you’re not in it – the woman has all the options in the world, keep it, don’t keep it, Hell, roll a dice.

            “they shouldn’t expect to do it alone.”

            You say with no hint of irony. Then why allow the unilateral decision to put oneself in that position? Or why does the bill go to someone else? Quite simply, If you can’t afford them, don’t have them. And, knowing that you’re the only person that wants them, should make you the only person responsible.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, gee, it’s like rationality isn’t a subject the MRAs ever thought to brush themselves up on… oh… wait…. I never thought they did in the FIRST place.

            The woman has more options because… wait for it… wait for it… women have more biological processes to CONTEND WITH. Why is it that MRAs never look at the OTHER side of the equation? Oh, SNAP!

            “Quite simply, If you can’t afford them, don’t have them. And, knowing
            that you’re the only person that wants them, should make you the only
            person responsible.”

            You say with no hint of irony. If the man is the only one that wants the child HE should be the one responsible for child support. If HE can’t afford it, don’t have one. If he CAN afford it, don’t complain. And, finally, why should we allow the unilateral decision for MEN to put themselves (AND OTHERS) in that position. Or why should a non-custodial mother contribute her income to a custodial father or why should a custodial mother contribute more of her income than a NON-CUSTODIAL PARENT ever would? And all that is by your OWN ‘logic’, btw.

            Yup, MRAs are representatives of hypocrites and misogynists.

        • Ohone

          Women shouldn’t be trying to force parenthood on non consensual fathers and forcing that life on children in the first place.

          If they didn’t do that there would few to no “deadbeat dads” and far less suffering in the world, and no Jerry Springer show.

          • sophie

            By your “logic,” then do not have sex unless YOU intend to procreate. THIS is a misogynistic statement: “Women shouldn’t be trying to force parenthood on non consensual fathers…” You are making an inaccurate assumption that women are coercing men into parenthood.

          • Ohone

            No, my logic is if you intend to procreate, organise it properly. If you have no intention of having an abortion should an accident occor, organize it properly.

            If there is no consensual, willing father there, don’t chose to have a baby.

            Its shouldn’t be woman’s choice and right to keep filling the world up with more and more children with no fathers.

          • goatini

            “If there is no consensual, willing father there”

            If you are not consensual, nor willing, to procreate, wear a condom, each and every time. Problem solved.

          • Ohone

            Because the CDC didn’t find 10% of men caught their partners trying to commit reproductive abuse, oh wait they did.

            If women want to have children, in the best interests of children and society, they need to find an enthusiastic and consensual father first.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Because the CDC didn’t find 10% of men caught their partners trying to commit reproductive abuse, oh wait they did.”
            Both men and women attempt to commit reproductive sabotage. Another way men and women can attempt to avoid this problem is by ensuring they sleep with people they trust and who do not want children.

            “If women want to have children, in the best interests of children and society, they need to find an enthusiastic and consensual father first.”

            You’re clearly just going to keep repeating this mantra all over this thread. Ok. Sure. I agree with you, that does sound like good advice. However, how does that justify allowing men to opt out of child support?

          • Ohone

            Both men and women commit reproductive abuse.

            The state condones and supports women doing it, while the state and system provides protection for women that are victimized by it.

            “However, how does that justify allowing men to opt out of child support?”

            Nobody suggested this. If he is enthusiastic and consensual, he doesn’t op out of child support, if he is not, there is no child, unless the woman can afford it by other means.

          • lady_black

            Then DON’T SLEEP WITH HER if you are so paranoid.

          • Halophilic NC

            You realize this sounds precisely like conservatives and anti-choice activists shaming women for having sex and “well, if you didn’t want to have to raise a child, you shouldn’t have had sex!”, right?
            What would be optimal would be that men and women could have casual sex and have analogous options to opt-out of financial responsibility in the case that the woman gets pregnant. At the moment, this is true but only in the case of the woman.

            We can give an analogous option to men who have casual sex and find themselves not wanting to be the father and it will take absolutely nothing away from the woman or the child. Why would you oppose this?

          • expect_resistance

            No, not the same.

          • Arekushieru

            No, it is not true only in the case of the woman. At the time the woman is pregnant there are NO financial obligations and NO PARENTS. A man can walk away from a pregnant woman at any time. A woman can NOT, however, walk away from her body. OOOPPPS. Which means that if the woman wants to CONTINUE the pregnancy she, ALONE, can be obligated to provide for her medical needs (which are exacerbated and MORE EXPENSIVE during this time) financially. Hypocrisy and misogyny thy name is MRA.

          • Ohone

            Paranoia isn’t the issue.

            Its teaching women they don’t need an enthusiastic willing father and all the suffering and poverty that goes with it thats the issue.

          • goatini

            Are you saying, by inference, that men can’t be taught to use a condom, each and every time, if they do not wish to procreate?

          • cjvg

            You are excuses the failings of men to take responsibility for their own contraception as the fault of women, in what twisted world is that even a fair or reasonable assessment?!

            If a man does not want to be a father and does not take reproductive responsibility and use contraception then that is the fault of the woman he has sex with if he becomes a father (not withstanding the fact that the woman might want to become a mother and as such choose this)

            So what you are really saying is that women should be held responsible for men’s reproductive choices (IE not using a condom, spermicidal, vasectomy every time they have sex)

            The chance to get pregnant is actually quite low each and every month, females are only fertile for 3 days of our 30 day cycle. So even if you have one time unprotected sex during ovulation there is only a 25% chance for pregnancy. Of course the risk of pregnancy increases with each and every subsequent unprotected intercourse during these 3 days, but then I hope you are smart enough to realize that at least.

            The chance that a pregnancy ensues when a man actually takes responsibility for his own reproduction, and wears a condom each and every time, reduces this to practically zero (even if the woman is not using anything)

            Even when the condom breaks the chances are that this will happen during the 27 unfertile days in the cycle. And even if it did happen during the 3 days of ovulation there is only a 25% chance of pregnancy! So unless you willfully and repetitively continue to play Russian roulette and refuse to take your own contraceptive measures, the case you are trying to make for all these poor men being tricked while they are being responsible is just not very believable!

            And then there is the fact that 1in 3 women have had an abortion, obviously the large majority of women do try very hard not to have unplanned and unwanted pregnancies!

            To recap your assertions;
            So regardless of the fact that a woman cannot get pregnant by
            herself and cannot get pregnant (very slim chance at best) if a man takes sufficient precautions, it must be her fault and he got “tricked”

            The fact that men can no longer walk away scott free is
            unfortunate for men, join the club, women never could and still cannot.

            A woman still has to carry the consequences if she becomes pregnant, either she has (and pays for) an abortion or has to go through pregnancy and child birth with all the health and financial perils that entails.

            It used to be man could walk away, but now the law just became a
            smidgen fairer and they might also be held responsible for their contraceptive (non) choices and the resulting offspring.

            Still, this is mostly an honor system, because if they walk away there is not much chance they will be forced to support that child.

            In your world a man is not responsible for his own contraception and if the woman becomes pregnant he should still be the one who get to tell her if she must go through with this pregnancy or not.
            Basically you want your cake and eat it to, in the mean time you are ignoring the fact that if you save your own cake that piece you are eating is someone elses!

          • King Rat

            FYI, I stopped showing your excellent essay on sentience for a few months. But, yesterday, on an article on TFA, I pasted it, once again, to someone who was clueless about fetal brain development.

            The person responded that your argument made them rethink their position on abortion.

            I just thought you’d like to know. Clearly, I did the right thing by saving that essay:P

          • cjvg

            Mirable is that you? like the new name
            Nice to know that some people are still willing to reason. I do not use the fetal brain development that often either, mostly because it just becomes so tedious to say the same thing over and over

          • King Rat

            Yep.

          • expect_resistance

            Of course, saving anything cjvg says is worth keeping to repost. Cjvg is awesome!

          • King Rat

            You know one of the things that I love about cjvg?

            She is Dutch, right. ESL. She often types ‘believes’ instead of ‘beliefs’

            IT IS SO DAMN CUTE

          • cjvg

            Oops, I never realized I still do that, i’ll try to pay attention.

          • cjvg

            Thank you, let me return the compliment.
            Often times I’m in awe of the irrefutable logic I encounter from many of the regular debaters on this site. (you and king rat included)
            And I have to admit it is my guilty pleasure to see you go of the real occasionally when dealing with a particular brick headed commenter

          • expect_resistance

            Applause!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • cjvg

            Curtsy (a formal one)
            But again that is not solely a personal achievement. The Netherlands offers extensive educational opportunities to everyone. (and I had some genetic help that ensured I was predisposed to affinity for languages)

          • expect_resistance

            No, the MRAs think they are being persecuted. No, that’s not paranoia. *eyeroll*

          • Unicorn Farm

            “The state condones and supports women doing it”
            Citation needed.

          • Ohone

            Family law and child support.

          • Unicorn Farm

            More specific, please. Surely if it’s so obvious you can show us all how.
            Also please state your definition of “reproductive abuse,” and where it came from.

          • Ohone

            More specifically, you arguing that women should have the right to force parenthood on non consensual fathers.

            And the system following suit.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “More specifically, you arguing that women should have the right to force parenthood on non consensual fathers.”

            Is that a response to my request for a citation as to how society condones reproductive abuse? No.

            You are basically upset that women are allowed to have children without men’s permission. I know you are all sad that women aren’t your property anymore, but it is not *abusive to men* that your permission is not required for a woman to give birth.

          • Ohone

            You are the proof that mainstream society supports female to male reproductive abuse.

            You see absolutely nothing wrong with women forcing parenthood on nonconsensual fathers.

          • Carrie

            When you by a ticket and walk into an R-rated movie, you do so voluntarily — sometimes eagerly. But you may see something very unpleasant or unwanted that you did not intend to see when you bought your ticket and walked in, maybe something you can’t forget. You would thusly argue that the movie company forced it upon you. You can storm out, but the deed is already done to you. Next time, skip the R-rated films, opt for G.
            When you have sex with a female of reproductive age, you likely do it willingly, eagerly. You take risks, unless you yourself minimize those risks (condom, vasectomy, e.g.). A very unwanted pregnancy may well be one of those risks you suffer due to YOUR OWN LACK of proper planning. Did she want to become pregnant? Who knows? Did you want to make her pregnant? If not, then make sure it does not happen.
            Until the laws of the land are changed, you can’t pretend you don’t understand that they exist. I don’t like jay-walking laws, but I must obey them because I don’t want to get ticketed. You don’t like paternity laws, then just make certain you never fall prey to them.

          • Frosty2013

            Many men are, men such as myself have become MGTOW, to fully ensure protection from laws designed to asymmetrically punish men.

            We do not engage in relationships with women, marriage or sexual activity with women because we face the immoral use of force to extract resources from us.

          • Ohone

            Yes we know thats the current ghetto and feminist mentality.

            Women have the right to chose to force parenthood on others, they are under no obligation to find a legitimately consensual and enthusiastic father. The system is pro female to male reproductive abuse and so are you and others here.

            That’s whats going to eventually change for the sake of children, men and society.

          • expect_resistance

            Source please.

          • goatini

            Far more males attempt to sabotage female contraception, than the converse. Read some science and stop listening to Tom Leykos.

            Women are not going back to being male property. Deal with it. And wear a condom if you don’t want to procreate.

            I advocate for both parties, male and female, always using contraception if procreation is not desired.

          • Ohone

            The man hate is on clear display now.

            The CDC found predictably that men and women are attempting reproductive abuse at equal rates.

            Men catch women slightly more often.

          • goatini

            I think it would not be far off to guess that you would also assert that domestic violence is 50-50 also. Since that also is not true, I’m pretty sure that the data you’re attempting to catapult on, ahem, “reproductive abuse” is likewise nonsense.

            And since I don’t hate men, as a whole, in any way – all of the men in my personal sphere are just fine with me – you’re just one more example of MRA projections of contempt for females, upon the objects of their contempt.

          • lady_black

            If you catch her, then DON’T sleep with her.

          • Ohone

            That’s not enough, the system needs to be such that women do not find it so easily to force parenthood on others with the help of state violence.

            That’s where consent to fatherhood and financial abortion comes in to it.

            Women that want children, need to find a willing and consensual father first. So the present system needs to be changed. Then you will see an end to large demographics where fatherhood is near non existent, increases in social mobility and dramatic reductions in social problems.

          • expect_resistance

            Another MRA argument of accusing women of being deceptive liars. Sure, “that’s not misogynistic at all.” *eyeroll*

          • Carrie

            But men have sex for sexual pleasure. And we all hear how condoms all but ruin any chance at sexual pleasure. Vasectomies should be the new condom.

          • Ed

            Both sexes have sex for pleasure but you frame it like men are getting over while the women get’s nothing but a unwanted pregnancy. Stop being so one sided. Your bias is showing.

          • Carrie

            That is a startling misperception you start your post with. “most women” have sex not for the sexual pleasure, but for the pleasing of the man pressuring her into it. If [in some alternate universe wherein] men did not have the male libido and the conquer-at-all costs mentality, and sex were initiated/wanted by women instead, the planet’s population would be going extinct.
            This is bias-free. Unless you must accept reality as bias.

          • Chris Moore

            I wish vasectomies would have been covered by ACA and they were reliably reversible (not much of a solution for older boys/ young men), that might help give them more reproductive rights. Of course, the male pill, if it ever does come, would be quite the godsend.

          • Carrie

            Agreed! The male pill would indeed be a godsend for men. Mind you, women will (or ought to) still insist upon a condom, as many of us have gotten pregnant by guys who *claim* to have had vasectomies just so they can go condom-free like they always wanted.

          • Chris Moore

            At the same time, men would not be beholden to trust dishonest women. People (not men , not women) can be crappy sometimes. Win/ win for everyone!!

          • ohreginald

            couldnt it likewise be said about women claiming they were on the pill? let’s not claim this kind of subterfuge is one-sided, nor that it is extremely prevalent

          • goatini

            So use a condom, each and every time you don’t want to procreate. Take responsibility for your own contraception. SO easy.

          • Carrie

            I would neither say nor imply that women claim anything special. I have never been impregnated by a lying woman though. And the topic is about a Pill for MEN. Which should still be chased by condom usage, since there is no guarantee he is taking his Pill, and there are diseases in the world as well.
            If the topic were about women, then I’d have crafted my response in that regard; since it’s about men, I wrote what I wrote.

          • JamieHaman

            The ACA doesn’t cover vasectomies. However, most insurance companies do provide such coverage. What most insurance companies don’t do is provide coverage for a vasectomy reversal.

          • Frosty2013

            Condoms aren’t 100% effective even when used correctly, this is stated on the product. Women have also been caught or owned up to sabotaging contraception, either their own or condoms brought by men.

          • Ohone

            No, that doesn’t solve the problem.

          • expect_resistance

            Sounds like a logic fail.

            “MRAs in arguing for men’s “right” to abortion and beyond, these assumptions together absolve men of all responsibility from necessary negotiation regarding sexual practices. This not only works to disenfranchise women, but also obstructs sexual freedom for women and men.”

          • L-dan

            I really have to wonder what world you live in where ‘deadbeat dads’ or merely absent ones are overwhelmingly men who didn’t want children in the first place. I’ll grant that it’s anecdote, but every guy I know in that category originally wanted the kids they later found inconvenient.

            Nor do I think the women forcing fatherhood on men–i.e. deliberately sabotaging birth control to get pregnant–is at the root of most of those. It happens, certainly. I’m not sure what the way to address those cases is, but regulations regarding abortion certainly aren’t useful.

            I knew teens growing up who thought (same as many an abusive guy) that a baby was the way to tie someone to them forever. None of them engaged in sabotage beyond acquiescing to the condomless sex the guys wanted. I can’t really see that as ‘forcing’ fatherhood on someone.

            I mean, this whole “I need to sign papers before having sex regarding my willingness to be a father,” thing seems pretty unlikely to fly.

          • Ed

            “I’ll grant that it’s anecdote, but every guy I know in that category originally wanted the kids they later found inconvenient.”

            The percentage of single fathers has been growing at a higher rate than single mothers and mothers obligated to pay child support are less likely to pay. They also are far less likely to be penalized for failure to pay. Then we need to talk about the plague of cockholding where women claim a man to be the father and he is not. We still a have state laws forcing men to pay whether or not it’s their child if they were married to the mother.

          • lady_black

            You are confusing legal parenthood with biological parenthood. If a man’s obligation to pay support for children of the marriage depended on biological relationship, what would happen to all the men who use sperm donors to father children? They would just be out of luck, I suppose. No kids for you!

          • fiona64

            mothers obligated to pay child support are less likely to pay.

            Citation needed.

            cockholding

            I believe the word you want is cuckolding … which is not even remotely like what you wrote.

          • Ohone

            If men are empowered to say no, and women are taught not to go ahead and have children without consensual fathers the majority of so called “deadbeat dads” would disappear.

            Men who agreed to have children and are being kept out of their lives by their mother and men who agreed the wanted children and the bizarrely abandon them are a different thing altogether. They consented and agreed to it, and should have the responsibilities and obligations.

          • Shan

            “women are taught not to go ahead and have children without consensual fathers”

            What sort of “lesson” would you propose to “teach” this to women?

          • Ohone

            You are trying to manufacture a false accusation there.

            People would learn that women shouldn’t commit reproductive abuse and need a consensual and enthusiastic father through policies like consent to fatherhood and financial abortion.

          • JamieHaman

            Since temporary birth control for men is unreliable, seems to me the time for an unwilling to be a father man to say no, is before sex. Not during, certainly not after.

          • Masta solanas

            The same should apply to mothers also, which is why abortion should be eliminated. (not my position but let’s apply equally).

          • Ian M. Graham

            That’s not what the word “equal” means, FYI

          • Masta solanas

            Of course, take away women’s options to say no to parenthood after sex, just as Jamie argued men should not have that right.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, are you completely clueless? Parenthood doesn’t automatically occur once a woman gives birth. Oops. And you would be taking away more options for a woman to say no than you would a man if you denied her the right to choose abortion. So, LIKE Ian said, that’s NOT what the word “equal” means. AGAIN.

          • Arekushieru

            Biological determinism, then denying biological determinism, sure sounds like sexism to me. Essentially, you are saying that because a man’s genetics contribute to the formation of a child, that just because pregnancy impacts a woman’s body MORE (which is ACTUALLY what the right to bodily autonomy and the right to choose abortion is predicated ON) a woman should should be unable to choose whether or not to remain pregnant. So, basically, because biological determinism works in YOUR favour, you acknowledge, when it doesn’t, you IGNORE it, just like every misogynist before you. See why we think Marcus is more rational and logical than hypocrites and misogynists like you?

          • JamieHaman

            Calling BS on that. There are no physical consequences to a woman being pregnant for a man. There most certainly are possibly serious, including death consequences for a woman to be pregnant, and child birth is another major risk.

          • Masta solanas

            Because there are potential risks such as death for the mother the man must be forced into parenthood? It’s not a good argument.

          • JamieHaman

            Nope. What you willfully ignore is this…as a man who will never be pregnant in this lifetime, you can walk away. You can deny, ignore, move across the country, and pretend that no child is yours.
            That has allowed men to maintain a ridiculous double standard for sexual behavior for centuries.
            Nope. That isn’t applying equally. You can prevent most pregnancies by wearing a condom, she can prevent most by reliable use of the pill, or implantation of an IUD, or an injection of hormones.
            All of those methods can fail. Used properly, the fail rate is pretty low.
            If you weren’t raped, you aren’t being forced into parenthood.
            You gambled and lost.
            Abortion is a whole different matter.
            Personally I would like to see people use a written contract, not a marriage contract, before they have kids. Write it out to the expected end of college for their children. Use a lawyer, and cover every contingency the lawyer can think of. Won’t happen, but it would protect mothers, fathers, and most importantly it would protect children.

          • Ohone

            This is why women should disclose their intentions up front so he can make that decision, and not have the right to force parenthood on him afterwards.

          • Arekushieru

            Um, the majority of men will abandon a woman once she’s pregnant. Forcing the woman to accommodate is blaming the victim. Men ARE empowered to say no, women are not. OOPSIES.

          • Ohone

            Do you have a citation for your misandrist and absurd claim that the majority of men that plan and consent to have children abandon women before the child is born?

          • Frosty2013

            This is really a large part of the issue.

            When men consent to sexual intercourse they’re not necessarily consenting parental responsibilities should the sex result in a child.

            However if intercourse results in pregnancy the female retains parental rights to avoid being a mother should she choose to opt out. However the father has no such option, this is an inequality in parental rights, this is simply indisputable.

            To make the genders equal we should increase the rights of men to allow them to legally opt out of parental responsibilities like women can, that way both sexes have equality.

            Anyone who rejects this proposal for equal rights simply isn’t interested in equal rights for the sexes, they’re only interested in special treatment.

            Rights to avoid parenthood by avoiding sexual contat
            Women = Yes
            Men = Yes

            Rights to avoid parenthood after child is conceived
            Women = Yes
            Men = No

            How is this equal? I thought feminism supported gender equality?

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        A CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUAL ETHICS

        Cherry:
        Men have choices.
        If men want to control their own reproduction, they can do the following things:
        Use contraception or get vasectomy.
        Practice abstinence.
        Screw other men.
        Have a talk with the woman you are about to screw about what her plans are for unexpected pregnancy. If you don’t like the answer, don’t screw her.
        Once a man has left his swimmers behind in her, all his chances to affect reproduction (choices) are gone.
        That is not unfair. That is biology.

        Kestrel:
        I guess men should never take a woman at her word when she tells him before sex that she’s on the pill or has had her tubes tied.
        Good to know, thanks.

        Cherry:
        No, they never should.
        For four reasons:
        Contraceptives fail.
        Once pregnant, a woman may decide to gestate. Pregnant for women is emotionally very different than nonpregnant.
        Some women are evil.
        And last, but not least, men (just like women) are totally responsible for their bodies and reproductive capacity.

        Kestrel:
        You won me over with #3. Now you know the position from which I speak.
        (Not that some MEN aren’t evil as well….)

      • cjvg

        Because you where forced to have intercourse without ensuring that you had adequate contraception?!

        That is called rape and there are already laws against that sugar!

    • Halophilic NC

      Which is why you’ll have a hard time actually finding any real arguments from actual MHRAs because they generally agree with this statement 100%. Biology necessitates different rights/privileges.

      What would be nice, however, would be something akin to “financial abortion” where men could opt out of parental rights and responsibilities to give them an analogous power to what women have. I’d personally be comfortable with the State supporting women that choose to have children even when the father opts out, but I suspect that situation would be rare.

      • goatini

        “where men could opt out of parental rights and responsibilities”

        It’s called a condom. Use one, or even two, each and every time if you do not wish to procreate. End of story.

        • Ohone

          Condoms break and the cdc found 10% of men have caught their partner trying to commit reproductive abuse.

          Women need to find consensual fathers before they have children.

          Its insane and irresponsible to argue otherwise.

          • lady_black

            Then he should no longer sleep with her if he caught her trying to commit “reproductive abuse.”

          • Ohone

            Victim blaming, people stay in abusive relationships, most reproductive abusers wouldn’t be caught anyway. The 1 in 10 number is only the men that caught women doing it.

            And we still have the fact that the system supports and condones female reproductive abusers, while supporting and protecting female victims of reproductive abuse and leaning violence against their victims for non compliance.

          • goatini

            So get some condoms and some hot sauce, deal with your own “Coney Island Whitefish”, as we used to call them, and take responsibility if you don’t want to procreate.

          • Ohone

            Thats like telling a female victim of reproductive abuse “should have used a condom, no abortion to you and if you don’t comply well throw you in prison.

          • goatini

            The fact of the matter is that you really, really don’t want to or like to use condoms; you want all of the contraceptive responsibility to be upon the female; and you also want to take advantage of any opportunity for sexual congress at any time and any place, without repercussions.

            I advocate for all sexually active persons, male and female, to use contraception if they do not intend to procreate. Would make things so much easier and better.

          • Ohone

            Nobody argued against using condoms false accuser.

          • goatini

            But you did argue against the use of condoms. You first used the excuse that “they break”. You then attempted to change the subject to, ahem, “reproductive abuse”, which based on what I’ve heard on Tom Leykos, consists of lurid tales of an imaginary female eschewing post-coital bliss to root around in trash baskets in search of the “Coney Island Whitefish”, and upon the finding of same, whipping out the turkey baster she carries with her at all times to apply the contents of the “Whitefish” up her Love Canal, with all possible haste.

            (Ladies, this is what these nitwits call “reproductive abuse”. The aforementioned Mr Leykos suggests to these poor souls that they carry a bottle of tabasco at all times, and that they apply said tabasco as a topping to their sp100ge in the “Whitefish”, so as to protect their homunculii from the, ahem, “reproductive abuser”. Can you believe these guys?!?!?!?)

          • Ed

            A man in the UK was recently convicted of sexual assault for pocking holes in a condom. By the same logic a women who lied about to taking birth control could be convicted. Would you accept that equality?

          • lady_black

            Um, how do you know she’s lying about taking birth control, and if you do know it, where’s your responsibility not to sleep with her? The failure of contraception is not evidence of lying.

          • goatini

            And THAT is why you should always, always use a condom if you do not wish to procreate. Take accountability for your own contraception, and you won’t have to worry about the other party. Any sensible woman doesn’t believe Mister “I’ve Had A Vasectomy” and Mister “I’m Shooting Blanks”, and any sensible man shouldn’t believe Ms “I’m Using BC”.

          • JamieHaman

            Yes. Provided the man also took his share of responsibility to prevent conception, and his condom broke.

          • Ian M. Graham

            That’s not what “logic” means, FYI. Also you’re using the word “equality” wrong.

          • Ohone

            You are the person who made a number of false accusations, called non feminist women prostitutes and doormats and made the misandrist and untrue claims that DV and reproductive abuse are largely male led. Your arguments and opinions on this aren’t credible at all.

          • goatini

            I’ve made no false accusations. Domestic violence is quite disproportionately male on female, and all statistics, excepting a very few non-credible sources (one of which, notably, has spoken out against the blatant misrepresentation of his analysis by MRAs), prove this out.

            “I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute.”
            ― Rebecca West, Young Rebecca: Writings, 1911-1917

          • expect_resistance

            Citation?

          • Ohone

            They are throughout the thread – men are the majority of domestic abusers, reproductive abusers, implying mra’s want to take away women’s vote, imputations of malice … all the usual feminist stuff.

          • lady_black

            No, it’s actually nothing like that. But you already know that.

          • Ohone

            You are delusional or dishonest.

            Under the present system, women are not obliged to find a consensual father, she can sabotage BC, rape or lie, and then use the system to enslave the non consensual father and garnish his wages for 18 years under the threat of prison for non compliance.

            Men that don’t comply with female reproductive abusers face social shame too, for being “dead beats” and so on.

          • goatini

            If only that poor, poor victim had availed himself of the wares of Trojan Man…

          • Arekushieru

            CUSTODIAL FATHERS CAN DO THE SAME TO THE NON-CUSTODIAL WOMAN. There, is that CLEAR enough for you, now??? And quite likely the woman will be making FAR LESS than the man. Also, the fact that more women get custody of children is an example of MISOGYNY NOT misandry. Dead beat dads are actually less frowned upon than dead beat moms. OOPS.

          • lady_black

            And you got that idea where?

          • Ohone

            This?

            “And we still have the fact that the system supports and condones female reproductive abusers, while supporting and protecting female victims of reproductive abuse and leaning violence against their victims for non compliance.”

            Thats what you are all arguing in favour of.

            A woman’s right to chose to force parental obligations on people who never consented or planned to have children with them, under the threat of state violence.

            I’m arguing in favour of a system that doesn’t support that.

          • hajile

            He doesn’t have any way of knowing if the crime is going to be committed until it already has occurred.

            That aside, there is an entire MGTOW section of the country that avoid relationships with women for this and other related reasons.

          • lady_black

            If he’s going to accuse her of poking holes in his condoms or whatever, he damned well better have caught her doing it, so how does he NOT know? Go ahead and avoid relationships with women. You won’t be missed.

          • goatini

            Only in the stunted mind of the MRA is advocating for use of contraception “insane and irresponsible”.

          • Ohone

            Another false accusation, I never said that.

          • goatini

            Another problem with MRAs is that they are literal monolithic black-and-white thinkers. Obviously, consent to procreation makes contraception essential. Ergo, your comment is asserting that advocating the use of contraception is “insane and irresponsible”.

          • Ed

            You realize you are making right wing pro life arguments every time you tell men to just put on a condom and not worry about their reproductive rights.

          • goatini

            But that’s utterly ludicrous, since I advocate for all sexually active persons, male and female, to take accountability for their own contraception, should they not wish to procreate. SO easy, SO simple, and the resistance and rage from MRAs at such a suggestion is quite remarkable.

          • Ian M. Graham

            You’re using combinations of words in this statement where you clearly don’t know what they mean. Nowhere in right wing pro life arguments do you hear / read “don’t worry about your reproductive rights.”

            Reproduction happens inside of a woman after a man’s penis has been inside of her. If you want to completely opt out of all possibilities of this, don’t do that, and you’re good.

            Your reproductive rights end in the space between your cock and her vulva, is that so hard to understand?

        • Masta solanas

          Consensual sex, even sans protection is not automatic consent to procreate.

          • goatini

            Correct. But if one does not wish to procreate, it would behoove one to be accountable for one’s own contraception.

          • JamieHaman

            lol, Oh yes it is. Intentions be dammed. Biology doesn’t care if the sex was good, bad, indifferent, violent, or any other thing. If you have sex without using a contraceptive or two you are going to procreate sooner or later, if you and your partner have normally functioning bodies.
            You can count on that procreation being sooner too.

          • Masta solanas

            Biology is irrelevant, if biology were the natural rule abortion and birth control would be immoral. it’s imperative not to be a slave to biology but to overcome it, whether with birth control, abortion, or giving men the choice to be the father.

          • JamieHaman

            “if biology were the natural rule abortion and birth control would be immoral.” That is exactly the position of the Catholic Church. Not Catholic? Me either.
            Pregnancy due to heterosexual intercourse is the rule. It is how human beings procreate, whether we want to or not. This is exactly is why biology is so relevant. We cannot separate pregnancy from sexual intercourse, our biology will not let us.
            Which is why both parties using effective birth control is so important. No matter how hard we try, so far, if we have unprotected sex, the natural result is pregnancy.
            If both parties are using birth control, the likelihood of pregnancy, desired or not, is much less likely.

          • Masta solanas

            Biology has been defeated with abortion. It is only right to extend the right to abort to males.

          • cjvg

            So you want the right to decide which medical procedures that only impact her body and health a woman is allowed to have?!
            Not exactly the same is it!

          • cjvg

            No it is not. However do not act surprised and accuse the other party of being deceptive when a pregnancy ensues.

            If you are willingly and knowingly risk having sex without contraception do not even attempt to claim that you where tricked into fatherhood and the obligations that come with it!

            The fact that men can no longer walk away scott free is
            unfortunate for men, join the club, women never could and still cannot.

            A woman still has to carry the consequences if she becomes pregnant, either she has (and pays for) an abortion or has to go through pregnancy and child birth with all the health and financial perils that entails.

            It used to be man could walk away, but now the law just became a
            smidgen fairer and they might also be held responsible for their choice to have sex without contraception and the possible offspring that is the result of their own choice.

            Still, this is mostly an honor system, because if they walk away there is not much chance they will be forced to support that child.

            In your world a legally competent adult man is not responsible for his own contraception, and if the woman becomes pregnant he should still be the one who get to tell her if she must go through with this pregnancy or not.

          • Masta solanas

            Women can abort, put up for adoption, safe haven, and even kill their children if they’re deemed too stressed.

            Before that they have far more birth control options than men, if anyone should take more responsibility it should be the female.

            Females get a lot of ways out, and have many ways to prevent pregnancy, far more than men. Considering the inequality in birth control methods and avenues to escape parenthood, I can understand why a male would need something like legal parental surrender.

          • goatini

            For millennia, females had no choice, no options, no “way out”, while males could cop to “How do I know it’s mine?” while getting all of his friends to swear that they had “known the charms” of the female in question.

            For only the most recent 50 years of history, females actually DO have autonomy and choice for the first time in recorded history, and males can’t cop to the “How do I know it’s mine?” BS any more.

            And this, in a nutshell, is what the MRA trolls hate and resent.

          • cjvg

            Hysterical much?!
            There are NO laws that make it legal for a woman to kill her child, please refrain from using hyperbole because you do not have any reasonable arguments!

            So since men only have a few (very reliable ways) to prevent pregnancy they should not be expected to take any personal responsibility for their own contraception when engaging in sex?!
            Instead legally competent adult males are very reasonable in expecting women to take the responsibility for the reproductive choices of men?!

            Wow, you are beyond help, basically you claim that men should not be held responsible for their own personal contraceptive choices because there are women who should do that for them!

            Anyone who’s whole argument is that he has not a shred of responsibility for his own choices because there are women in the world has no argument at all!

          • Ian M. Graham

            Yes, actually, it is.

            Men’s reproductive rights end at a woman’s vulva. If you don’t want to procreate with her, don’t fuck her. Period.

            Why on earth are there men in this world who think that they can have sex and have a legal right to not be fathers? Sweet jesus.

          • Masta solanas

            I’d assume the female is consenting here too along with the male, so she bears responsibility also. And if she doesn’t want to procreate, she should keep her legs closed or use the plethora of birth control options she has that men do not.

            Of course, Legal Parental Surrender would only be valid in the term of which she can have an abortion.

          • Masta solanas

            Consensual sex is automatic consent to procreate, are you pro life?

    • iliketurtlez

      MRAs are not asking for the power to force women to carry or abort. They’re asking for the power to legally and financially remove their obligations to an unwanted child; a power that women have via abortion, adoption, and legal no-questions-asked abandonment. If a woman doesn’t want the child, she has multiple ways of removing her obligations to it. If a man doesn’t want the child, it doesn’t matter, he’s forced to pay for it for the next 18 years.

      • lady_black

        Women do not have the option of legally and financially removing their obligations to a child via abortion, because there is at this point, no child to which she is obligated. And neither is HE obligated, at this point. Once there is a child, the whole dynamic changes. A woman is no more “opting out” of parenthood when she aborts than she is when she uses birth control. There is nothing to parent. Why don’t you just take it a few steps further? Outlaw birth control, and make rape legal. You know you want to. Then you would have total control over becoming a father or not.

        • Chris Moore

          I s that REALLY what you got from his statement? I have my own issues w/ LPS, but just…wow!

          • lady_black

            What the hell is LPS?

          • Chris Moore

            Legal parental surrender, I thought that was what was being discussed.

          • lady_black

            Yeah we have that, it’s called adoption. But both parties have to agree to that. YOU do not get to unilaterally sign away the right of a child to support from BOTH parents.

          • Chris Moore

            “Yeah we have that, it’s called adoption. But both parties have to agree to that.”- Hopefully…..

            I also have issues w/ LPS, I have raised my daughter alone for many years, she is a sophomore in college. I had to agree to no support in order to get custody away from her (prescription pill probs) mom. The judge disallowed that, but agreed to 100/mo to be taken off her alimony. I think we desperately need better contraceptive choices for men and boys beyond condoms or sterilization. That might be a better way to give them more effective reproductive rights.

            “Outlaw birth control, and make rape legal. You know you want to. Then you would have total control over becoming a father or not.”

            That was the part of your comment that had me puzzled.

          • Ohone

            So, women can force non consenting men to be parents through fraud, abuse, rape and dishonesty and have the state level violence against them for non compliance and the overwhelming majority of feminists support this and every other option that’s available for women including adoption, which women can actually do without the fathers consent.

            This is why feminists need to be taken out of the gender debate – they are supremacists.

        • bawoman

          “Why don’t you just take it a few steps further? Outlaw birth control, and make rape legal. You know you want to.”
          WTF? Seriously….get educated.

      • expect_resistance

        Or aka getting out of paying child support. Reading this crap makes me glad I have no children. And especially glad I didn’t have sex with some asshat MRA dude.

      • Ian M. Graham

        “MRAs are not asking for the power to force women to carry or abort.”

        You’re either wrong and don’t know it, or lying. Plenty of MRAs think they should have a say in wether or not a woman can abort “their” child.

        “If a woman doesn’t want the child, she has multiple ways of removing her obligations to it. ”

        Where exactly are you speaking about? This varies in the United States, and there are forces at work to remove these rights.

        • bawoman

          “you’re either wrong and don’t know it, or lying. Plenty of MRAs think
          they should have a say in wether or not a woman can abort “their” child.”
          Please post some proof of this, or your just talking out of your ass.
          There may be some pro life MRAs, the same way there are pro life feminists…..but being neither pro life or pro choice has nothing to do with the movement.
          From my experience the vast majority are pro choice, mainly because of all the reasons stated in the comments.

  • Nicolai Rublev

    The entire article is based on a massive and laughable strawman. MRAs are overwhelmingly pro bodily autonomy. The argument has always been about legal paternal surrender and effective birth control and education for men.

    • Masta solanas

      Strawmanning MRAs seems to be the fad now, perhaps the recent SNL sketch has something to do with it.

      Legal parental surrender (of which some feminists agree with) and a viable male birth control method like Vasalgel. It’s not that difficult.

      I’m sure Marcus got a cookie from the campus feminist elite on this one.

      • Ed

        They can straw man MRA’s but they can’t defeat the facts or the hypocrisy of the double standards men are subjected to.

        “I’m sure Marcus got a cookie from the campus feminist elite on this one.”

        Being published is he cookie and there are more to come. It’s a classic case of the privileged using their privilege to protect their privilege or in this case using it to oppress the other gender seeking their rights.

        • Chris Moore

          I do have to say this thread does remind me of the traditionalist venom against feminists in the early years of the movement.

        • Arekushieru

          Sorry, but that’s what YOU do. Protect YOUR privileges in order to oppress women seeking their OWN rights. Oops.

  • Ed

    This is the dumbest article of Men’s Rights Activist I’ve ever seen.

    “MRAs push for a more patriarchal society—one that’s organized by “natural” gender roles and supposedly gender-blind but actually male-dominated state governance. ”
    MRA’s rejects gender roles and sees men’s traditional role as exploitative. You are confusing them with traditionalist and social conservatives who are the ones pushing anti abortion legislation. The reproductive rights MRA’s want is financial abortion which means not having to pay for children you don’t want to have. Of course that controversial even for them.

    MRA’s are not anti abortion and don’t take any particular position on the issues.

    “Looking through this intersectional lens reveals that the argument for an alleged men’s right to an abortion relies on racist conceptions of bodies as property, and heterosexist, traditionalist ideas about female eroticism. ”

    This is where I as a black man tell you to stop appropriating “racism” for some white women’s gender power play. The real racism here is reducing race to a intersection in a gender issue instead of letting it stand on it’s own like it did during the Civil Rights Era before white women who appropriated via Bell Hooks introduction of intersectionality. White supremacy is a major problem in feminism so don’t try to play this academic jargon jungle with race. The last thing black people need is to be dragged into the pit of lies feminists create to protect themselves from criticism. White men will still love white women when feminism falls apart but the same can’t be said for race. Race is a talented black man forced to right for a white women’s agenda while 8% of young black men linger in America’s prisons. Tell me where is your article on that young man? They can care less about you.

    This article was a big mistake and I think you’ll regret it. I know a lot about MRA’s and NEVER have I seen them EVER push the crap you are pinning on them now. IT’s like you got your lessons from the SNL skit over the weekend. BAD move, real bad move. There is poor integrity then there is getting it wrong as a journalist and nobody respectable will respect someone who gets it really wrong.

    • expect_resistance

      Your reading comprehension is lacking.

  • ohreginald

    Wow. You couldn’t possibly be more wrong. MRAs are AGAINST traditional gender roles and don’t even believe in patriarchy. So many flaws in this piece of shit article, but let’s focus on the abortion issue – MRAs want abortion rights? Are you sure? Where? Some MRAs believe in parental equality and are against financial slavery – women have options when pregnant: birth, abortion, adoption and care. Men have none but are expected to pay for a child if the mother chooses, or have their child aborted or given away – is this the equal society you believe in? How about *some* say in having a child? No one can force an abortion on a woman, but if a woman wants to have a child regardless of the fathers wishes, he should be able to opt out of responsibility just as she can. MRAs are AGAINST financial slavery not for abortion rights, get your damn facts straight

    • lady_black

      “Women have options while pregnant…” And since YOU will never be pregnant, you have no options. Simple enough, no? That’s the nature of biology. Women who have abortions are opting out of pregnancy, not parenting. You’re ALREADY opting out of pregnancy. Your option is not to get a woman pregnant, because once you do, it’s out of your hands! Giving men any say about pregnancy gives him ownership of a woman’s body. That’s not happening. Supporting your children is not “financial slavery.” Don’t like it? Take custody yourself, and let her cut a check while you do all the work.

      • ohreginald

        This isn’t about the act of giving birth, you’ve been misdirected by this dumb author. No MRA is arguing biology, but after you’ve given birth you expect responsibility to lie elsewhere. Don’t get your knickers in a twist thinking men want to control your uterus

        your body your choice your responsibility. My wallet, my choice. If you’ve made the unilateral decision to abort, give birth or give up the child then that’s ALL on you. All MRM says it’s not beyond the realms of reasonable to give the father some say, particularly when currently you’re forcing a decision on him.

        Look at it this way: you’ve given me a few nuts, bolts and screws, I’ve decided to build a car. Currently, you can’t tell me not to build it, it’s my time and labour. Now, once it’s built, you’re liable for the costs. I could sell it or give it away, I could have not built it, either way, you have no say in the matter and if i decide to keep it, you pay regardless of access rights. In fact, the nuts bolts and screws might not even be yours! You still pay!

        • lady_black

          What PART of “child support is the right of the child” is confusing to you? I’ll take “poor analogies” for $500, Alex. A car, by the mere fact that it exists, isn’t going to cost you money. Unlike a child. A child, by the mere fact that it exists, needs shelter, clothing, food and medical care. I totally get it that you think children are like your toys and your women, that you can play with them and then put them on a shelf someplace and move on. With human beings it doesn’t work like that, cupcake. Children are human beings just like women are, and entitled to the support of both parents.

          • ohreginald

            Oh, sweetie, you’re oh so basic. Fine if you want to poke holes in the analogy, but it stands – garage costs, insurance, MOT, servicing, petrol, maintenance – I’m making you pay for those because I wanted the car.

            But I’d say if anyone is missing the point or treating children like toys, it’s you. You don’t believe in accountability – seriously, follow it – a unilateral decision to have a child, buy a house, go on holiday, whatever means the liability is with that person, if everyone else disagreed or didn’t want it, why should they pay for YOUR decision?

            You would rather shit out a child against all reason but due to your own ego, a child that ONLY YOU want, yet expect others to take up the slack. You said it “children are human beings” so why have it if you don’t intend to raise it yourself? What life does a kid have when one parent never wanted it? And that applies to care kids and adoption because WOMEN use those options!

          • lady_black

            I never had children that the father never wanted. And I don’t think it’s as big a problem as you make it out to be. I had A child, whose father begged me not to abort, but for whom he only wanted to care so long as the relationship worked out. It doesn’t work that way, sunshine. That’s all well and good, his son had a fine life. His son calls another man “Dad” because he himself never earned that name, and if I had my son in front of you, he’d tell you the same thing. My son calls his father by his first name, when he bothers to speak to him at all. You and my ex-husband ought to get together and go squirrel hunting and commiserate about how unfair it is to expect men to support their children. And YES, I surely DID go after the irresponsible POS and make sure he paid his support. Every fucking DIME of it. Why not? He didn’t do shit else.

      • hajile

        That argument only holds with regards to abortion. Why can a woman give her child up for adoption (waiving all of those parenting responsibilities), but a man cannot give up those same responsibilities?

        • lady_black

          A woman cannot relinquish a child for adoption without the consent of the biological father. And she may not want to. HE may not want to.

          • goatini

            That depends – the state of Utah is quite lax on paternal consent for adoption, which is why it is quite a popular venue for the global human trafficking adoption syndicate to acquire inventory with minimal delay.

  • ohreginald

    “Central to the political agenda of MRAs is floating the idea that men somehow have a “right” to an abortion, or more accurately a right to interfere with a woman’s right to an abortion.”
    Absolute horse shit. Central to the MRA agenda is true gender equality – equal rights and responsibilities. Equal custody, equal sentencing, equal employment at the top AND BOTTOM, awareness of massive gender inequalities such as the suicide rates, homelessness, workplace deaths and health funding, the lack of domestic violence shelters, the silence about male victims of rape.

    You are the worst kind of slanderer, and as a person of colour too should be ashamed of trying to malign the human rights of a group because you dislike a physical trait. Being treated fairly is a right. You might be doing oh so well but there are millions of men being punished by a system that refuses to see their suffering. So actually look at the MHRM properly or kindly fuck yourself

    • Ed

      Worse yet a black man of all people who has the worst male gender issues in America (possible exception to native men). You have 1 in 3 black men going to prison in their lifetime versus 1 in 111 white women but he’s busy chastising the few who stand up for men and boys. There is no compassion for men in his perspective because he was trained to treat them and himself as a threat to women. It’s a sick ideology indeed and he should consider himself a victim of vicious mind games at this point.

      • screagle101

        Black society is extremely matriarchal and has been for the better part of a century. In that context his views are understandable

        • goatini

          Another disciple of Daniel Amneus, I see. Women are not going back to being male property. Get over it.

        • Ed

          You make a good point.

  • Ohone

    This journo has not done his homework. Financial abortion and consent to fatherhood would limit the number of women that go ahead have children with no consensual, enthusiastic and suitable father in place. The feminist system causes poverty, suffering and many unwanted children. Men and women need to start saying no to these selfish women.

    • lady_black

      There is no such thing as a “financial abortion” and there never will be. Child support is the right of the child, and not the right of the woman. Or the man. If a man doesn’t want to be a father, he can have a vasectomy, wear a condom, or not engage in vaginal intercourse. He will never be pregnant, and has no rights over the body of a woman by virtue of his three minute contribution. Which was made enthusiastically and consensually enough. That’s not misandry. It’s biology. Try “saying no” and you will not be a “men’s rights activist” but a deadbeat parent and probably at some point, an inmate.

      • Ohone

        There will eventually be some sort of policy that will discourage women from choosing to have children with no consensual, enthusiastic and suitable father, be it financial abortion or consent to fatherhood or something else.

        The problem isn’t so much men, its women , who have total control over whether they have children or not, choosing to have children without finding a consensual, present, willing and enthusiastic father first.

        When we move off the feminist system onto something more rational that limits these women, there will be a lot less suffering and poverty.

        • sophie

          Why don’t you take your misogynistic comments and go on over to the Good Men Project, or some other asinine site where you can whine about how horrible “feminism” is, and state batshit inanities such as this gem:
          “there will eventually be some sort of policy that will discourage women from choosing to have children with no consensual, enthusiastic and suitable father, be it financial abortion or consent to fatherhood or something else.”
          That is what wingnut legislators would be drooling over, if they could get away with it–regardless of how it would violate critical constitutional rights.
          Yes, that is EXACTLY the kind of mindset that the author is writing about. Men who hate women, and the FACT that they have the ability to become pregnant, and make their own decisions. Unfortunately, women do not have “total control over whether they have children or not,” which is a blatantly hateful and disgusting comment.
          If a woman wishes to raise a child alone, she has that right. And, the majority of people aren’t having a pre-sex Q&A about parenthood, moron.

          • Ohone

            You are using a very loose definition of misogny.

            Thats a new one, suggesting that we go back to teaching women to find a consensual and willing father before they decide to have a child is the hatred of women.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “teaching women”

            Stoopid wimmins.

            Again, we should not institute social structures that severely limit women’s social, economic, and reproductive freedoms in an attempt to reign in the poor behavior of men.

            Your position might come off as slightly more credible and less sexist if you’d devoted even one sentence to critiquing men who abandon their children or indicated what lessons we should teach them, too. There are plenty of “fathers” who began the journey willingly and consensually and then skipped out.

          • Ohone

            So women shouldn’t be discouraged from having children with no consensual, present and enthusiastic fathers.

            How is that working out for women’s social, economic and reproductive freedoms.

            Lets go to a counsel estate in the UK where there is no concept of fatherhood, work ethic, possibility of social mobility and school teachers are toilet training these poor children and ask them.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “So women shouldn’t be discouraged from having children with no consensual and enthusiastic fathers.”

            Did I say that?

            Your position might come off as slightly more credible and less sexist if you’d devoted even one sentence to critiquing men who abandon their children or indicated what lessons we should teach them, too. There are plenty of “fathers” who began the journey willingly and consensually and then skipped out.

          • Ed

            FYI: The Good Men Project is a feminists site. Since Tom Matlock left and no MRA would be caught dead there. It’s sad when a pro male man can’t run a site called the Good Men Project because feminists won’t stop attacking him. Men can’t have anything positive, just kicks and rocks from the mean girls of the interwebs.

            “That is what wingnut legislators would be drooling over, if they could get away with it–regardless of how it would violate critical constitutional rights.”

            Wingnut legislators are traditionalist who’d be against it. MRA’s and traditionalist don’t get along so you are wrong again. You are dealing with men who are very outside the box that you can’t really tie to some establishment straw man that’s easy to take down. Financial abortion may be a bit too much for me but I respect the debate being had just like I do the debate over fetal abortion even though I lean pro choice.

            These men don’t hate women. They see them as equals and are ready to treat them exactly as they would men. Traditionalist feminists women want to have their cake and eat it too but these men are on another level. It’s not about pleasing women but equal responsibility as individuals. They don’t want to support, coddle, or pander to you like men of old so I see why they scare you. Equality is tough when you are used to privilege but it’s time to stop protecting that privilege.

        • lady_black

          “When we move off the feminist system onto something more rational that limits these women, there will be a lot less suffering and poverty.”
          Says nobody, EVER, who has any idea what they’re talking about. Way back before anyone ever heard of feminism, men deserted women and children, and there was suffering and poverty galore. My mother (rest her soul) was raised by a single mother, not because my grandmother was “selfish” but because she was deserted. How dare you. You know what feminism means? I don’t think it means what you think it means. Feminism is a philosophy that says women are equal to men, and have just as much right to self-determination as men have historically enjoyed. What a radical concept. NOT.

          • Ohone

            Before the feminist system, the number of children with no involved father was around 6%.

            Since modern feminism taught everyone to believe that women have the right to have children with no consensual father, thats increased by 400% and the concept of fatherhood has been bred out of existence in large sections of the lower classes.

          • lady_black

            Your conclusion assumes the truth of your premise. That’s not so. Because in the past, couples tended not to divorce doesn’t necessarily mean things were better and people were happier. It simply means they stayed in miserable marriages that would have ended in divorce today, because women have little other choice. I’m not real anxious to bring that back, and you shouldn’t be either. The concept of fatherhood has not been “bred out” and there are still many wonderful men who are willing to assume that role if you won’t. I’m married to one of them.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Since modern feminism taught everyone to believe that women have the right to have children with no consensual father, thats increased by 400% and the concept of fatherhood has been bred out of existence in large sections of the lower classes.”
            I refuse to remove women’s reproductive, social, and economic rights in an attempt to control men’s poor behavior.

          • Ohone

            You don’t have any say in it.

            There will eventually come a point where society demands that women stop having children without consensual fathers, and expecting the state to point a gun at them to finance their selfish decisions.

            And then there is be less poverty, crime, unwanted children, Jerry Springer, and so on.

          • lady_black

            No you got it all backwards and twisted around and befuddled. Society is NOT on your side, Peter Pan. What society wants is for you to support your children so the taxpayer (that’s me) doesn’t have to.

          • Ohone

            Right, society currently teaches women that they don’t need a willing and consensual father, but because of the chaos, pain, poverty and crime that creates, that will change and people will look to more rational solutions, like consent to fatherhood.

          • lady_black

            Dream on.

          • Shan

            “What society wants is for you to support your children so the taxpayer (that’s me) doesn’t have to.”

            Exactly. This “financial abortion” thing will never fly. The Joe Taxpayers of the nation are already freaking out about the ACA’s birth control mandate, screeching “PAY FOR IT YOURSELF!” They’re certainly not going to go for any legislation making it so that they have to pay to support every Tom, Dick and Harry’s kids as well.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You don’t have any say in it.”

            I don’t? Why not?

            “There will eventually come a point where society demands that women stop having children without consensual fathers, and expecting the state to point a gun at them to finance their selfish decisions.”
            There will eventually become a point where society demands that men stop fathering children they have no intent to care for and abandoning their children, expecting women and the state to finance their selfish decisions.

          • goatini

            “There will eventually come a point where society demands that women stop having children without consensual fathers”

            Disciple of Daniel Amneus, I see. Get it straight – females are not going back to being chattel breeding property of males.

          • Ohone

            Ah, absurd false accusations.

            Feminist much?

          • goatini

            Amneus is the dirty little secret of the MRA movement. The MRA movement and Amneus are like Republicans and GWBu$h – desperate to disavow their allegiance to the discredited.

            And of course I’m a feminist, seeing as how I’m not a doormat or a prostitute.

          • Ed

            You just finished arguing with a MRA who wanted children by consent which would require the legality of abortion but you are still insisting they are pro life? Why do you need to lie? MRA’s don’t have to lie about feminists, because they have feminist like you whose desire for dominance over men leads to social aggression devoid of any moral or ethical boundaries. Be honest…you’d accuse these men of child rape if you thought it would get you some where.

          • goatini

            You’re paranoid, delusional, and could probably use a good roll in the hay to clear out your brain, if only someone were willing.

          • Ohone

            blah blah false accusation blah blah mischaracterisation blah blah men are really the reproductive abusers women are too pure to do it at equal rated blah blah, I’m a feminist women, that are not doormats and prostituted blah blah blah

          • goatini

            You know as well as I that the internet has been assiduously scrubbed of almost all things Amneus due to his dirty little secrets, and you just desperately hope that no one actually knows the facts about him.

            And I also see you haven’t heard of the famous quote by Rebecca West. Too busy guzzling from Paul Elam’s fount of wisdom, I suppose.

          • Ohone

            blah sexism blah blah women are too pure to have equal agency in DV blah blah women that aren’t feminists are prostitutes blah blah blah project by criticizing others wisdom blah blah blah blah

          • goatini

            Ah yes, the “wisdom” of emotionally arrested and stunted MRAs; “How dare mere females criticize such “wisdom”? Why can’t we just go back to women and children as male property, and rescind the 19th Amendment?”

          • Ohone

            blah false accusation about wanting to take away women’s vote blah blah false claim that women were property blah blah blah non feminist women are prostitutes blah blah the system should support female reproductive abusers blah blah blah

          • expect_resistance

            Most of us are feminists here duh.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Ah, absurd false accusations.

            Feminist much?”

            You mad, bro?

          • Ed

            No that sounds more like an issue of consent not women being chattel. It sounds right considering how much of an issue feminist have made about consent. The thing is to enforce such rules you’d need a pro choice nation which proves again MRA’s are not pro life advocates.

          • expect_resistance

            Daniel Amneus, what an asshat.

          • Ed

            I say grant welfare to poor fathers in the home. That would go a long way towards correcting this problem.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Why do you believe that poor fathers cannot obtain welfare benefits?

          • lady_black

            This should be ‘interesting’… Of course, he’s wrong. Both men and women can collect TANF or Social Security survivor benefits if the mother is deceased.

          • Ed

            The link I posted has the comment in moderation. You can search

            “how anti poverty programs marginalize fathers”

            It’s in the The Atlantic.

          • Unicorn Farm

            You can provide your own proof for your own assertion.

          • grantal

            That is because the men who made all the rules, made it that way. men did this to themselves! Women had no say in anything back then. We were merely “property” for men to do what they wanted. When women began to revolt and want to be treated as the HUMANS we are it upset the male hierarchy. heaven forbid. Now it seems that if men want to abandon their children and get away with it( as many many have done in the past) we women need to actually be treated EQUALLY according to the law. if you want your freedom get the red states to ratify the ERA. I think that is something most MR’s groups would agree with. With the ERA women at least would be able to get equal pay to afford to raise their children alone without having to work six jobs.

          • Ed

            “When women began to revolt and want to be treated as the HUMANS we are it upset the male hierarchy.”

            The feminists revolt was about men treating women like children because they were in the habit of supporting them from cradle to grave. White women were little coddled to the point of boredom but many worked like Obama’s grandmother and most poor women such as minorities. This bored white women’s movement went off the rails and became overtly hostile to men and our sons. The correction needs to happen because when men and boys wake up to their being neglected, mistreated, and subjected to double standards generations after we abandoned gender roles they aren’t going to be happy.

            The ERA would be better for men than women but Phyllis Schaffly was right. It’s going to cost women their privileges.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “This bored white women’s movement went off the rails and became overtly hostile to men and our sons. The correction needs to happen because when men and boys wake up to their being neglected, mistreated, and subjected to double standards generations after we abandoned gender roles they aren’t going to be happy.’
            Lol.

          • Ed

            That’s funny until you hear white women telling Black men they are privileged for being men. This B.S train you created to gain leverage over men has gone way too far. Men deserve equality not subjugation at the hands of a elite group of phony victims who exploit patriarchy to gain favortism for women. Men and boys traditionally are not sympathetic victims so they can’t compete with white women’s tears regardless of their race.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Hysterical.

          • grantal

            What “privileges”? I never asked for any privileges as a white woman! In fact I have been on my own for 30 some years and am very happy that way. You cannot say that ALL white women are wanting or needing privileges. look around the world your statement does not hold up . Women have been treated as property because it was the mens way of assuring their genes only were passed on. We are biological creatures. reproduction is a very strong biological need something very hard to control on both sexes just like eating. It is a matter of survival. For me it is very hard to contemplate how this arrangement that humans have created can possibly work. I mean women cannot be in ten places at once and men and women do not get along nor see eye to eye we should be more like the deer. Only come together to reproduce and then go off on our own. the problem is women cannot take their children to work. However what we have been doing has not worked unless there is some sort of force involved. So according to the MRA’s it is back to forcing women into slavery.

          • lady_black

            Phyllis Schaffliar (is that old crone even still alive) was never correct about much of anything in her life. Nothing changed except women are no longer your chattel property. Women always worked, whether it was in the home or outside of it. Even wealthy women who were freed from domestic chores, and had no need or support of working for pay had to find something to do with their time, or they became drunks and valium addicts. Many volunteered, or studied, or led scout troops or whatever. Women are human beings with the same need to have a purpose as men have. Women often didn’t work for pay because husbands didn’t want them to. That’s hardly a “privilege ” to be limited to domestic drone, avid volunteer or alcoholic/drug abuser. Or have your career options limited to nurse, secretary or teacher. Stop talking out of your behind, and I might listen to what you have to say

          • goatini

            Yeah, that old bat Schlafly is still around, still preaching to the vapid and ignorant against EXACTLY what she herself does and how she herself lives her life.

          • HeilMary1

            Deadbeat daddy priests who eschew marriages to the urine- and feces-leaking MOTHERS OF THEIR CHILDREN are the original role models for you whiny deadbeat daddies everywhere. They turned their deadbeat daddyism into a cult religion and got cowed serfs to foot their child-free lifestyles. Because the Vatican dedicated itself to fighting marital sex, it banned most marriages, thereby making most kids bastards. It briefly banned marriages between 6th cousins, but that wiped out all marriages for transportation-impaired serfs who couldn’t find 7th cousins in any nearby villages. Laws of inheritance also only allowed marriages for firstborn sons. Such onerous rules forced most kids to be born out of wedlock.

            You also ignore the devastation of wars on families. Most surviving women end up as widows, divorcees, spinsters and hookers because most of the men get killed off and bombed family businesses force mothers to sell themselves to soldiers for food. “Traditional” families started vanishing during WWI because of the massive die off of men. Double ditto for WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and Iraq Wars I and II, etc. Feminism was reborn in the 1950s in response to veterans being urged by Hugh Hefner to abandon non-centerfold MOTHERS. When divorced mothers were forced by Hugh Hefner to work, they noticed their paychecks didn’t match Don Draper’s. WaPo ran a revealing article on the explosion of amateur prostitutes in Baghdad after our second invasion. 100,000 desperate Iraqi women resorted to prostitution to feed their kids! Thanks, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney!

          • goatini

            More Amneus BS.

          • Ed

            “Way back before anyone ever heard of feminism, men deserted women and children, and there was suffering and poverty galore.”

            Yes now they reproduce with a poor man not ready to be a father and have him go to prison for being a poor man not ready to be a father.

            Is this supposed to be progress? The 40,000 men in prison for failure to pay child support tells me it’s not and of course the poor are hit the hardest. Why not grant welfare to both mom and dad? Nobody goes to prison!

          • goatini

            Poor choice of partners, poor self-protection, poor decisions result in bad circumstances. Deal with it.

          • Ed

            “Poor choice of partners, poor self-protection, poor decisions result in bad circumstances. Deal with it.”

            Seriously…HOW DUMB ARE YOU? The same thing can be said to knocked up women! You push double standards like they are going out of style, wait they are going out of style…

            Can you please stop using right wing pro life talking points and applying it to men. That’s not equality.

          • goatini

            Did I say that my comment applies only to males?

            Of course I didn’t. That would be YOU making that false assumption.

            Women who make poor choices in partners, poor self-protection, and poor decisions likewise get bad circumstances as the result. Which is why we are here on RHRC to advocate for reproductive justice. Deal with it.

          • HeilMary1

            Can you please stop using pedophile priests’ propaganda to justify letting already born kids starve just to punish women who didn’t have abortions?

          • HeilMary1

            How about YOU supporting graphic sex ed and accessible family planning so most women aren’t bullied into breeding by religious forced birthers?

          • HeilMary1

            But your TeaTards and GOP oppose all welfare for poor parents.

          • HeilMary1

            WaPo columnist Richard Cohen wrote about the forgotten scandal of the massive abandonment of wives and children in Europe by Jewish immigrant dads. He looked into this when he discovered that his own grandfather had for many years abandoned his grandmother when he emigrated to the U.S. When Jewish mothers finally emigrated on their own to the U.S., they set up bulletin boards looking for their husbands. Cohen came across a sad notice by his grandmother!

        • Unicorn Farm

          “limits these women”
          Just use the word “controls”. You know you want to.

          • Ohone

            The obligatory imputation of malisse towards women. I wonder if feminists will ever learn to speak to the complementary movement without making false accusations?

            How is your system working out the lower classes?

            Large demographics that have lost the concept of fatherhood and a woman finding an enthusiastic consensual father before she has a child.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “The obligatory imputation of malisse (sic) towards women. I wonder if feminists will ever learn to speak to the complementary movement without making false accusations?”

            I do not consider your movement to be a complementary movement. I have read enough MRA material from various sources to understand exactly what you’re advocating and I am not impressed. Based on my experience with MRAs, the movement is populated with individuals-men and women- who are deeply and often violently sexist. It is not a movement I will engage with. My position on MRAs is not up for negotiation.

            “Large demographics that have lost the concept of fatherhood and a woman finding an enthusiastic consensual father before she has a child.”
            Yes, many men across demographics HAVE lost the notion that they should fulfill their obligations as a father to their children.

          • Ohone

            “Yes, many men across demographics HAVE lost the notion that they should fulfill their obligations as a father to their children.”

            What has changed is teaching women that reproductive abuse is ok, and that they are totally justified in having children without securing an enthusiastic, consensual father first.

            Enthusiastic, consensual father tend to fulfill their obligations.

          • lady_black

            Sadly, they often don’t, once the nookie doesn’t go along with the bargain. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

          • Ohone

            So there should be a system of consent to fatherhood. If you want a baby, you have to arrange it properly, if he is enthusiastic and consents to fatherhood, you both sign off it.

            If there is no consensual enthusiastic father in place, don’t commit reproductive abuse by going ahead and having the baby just because of your own selfish needs.

          • Unicorn Farm

            ” don’t commit reproductive abuse by going ahead and having the baby just because of your own selfish needs.”

            There we go! Reproductive abuse means “having a baby without a man’s permission.”
            F* this clown.

          • Ohone

            Yes, if a man forces a woman to have a child against her will, its reproductive abuse and visa versa.

            You are pro female to male reproductive abuse.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Once a man has ejaculated, his role in the reproductive process is complete. The woman having the child is not “reproductive abuse.”

            When a woman is pregnant, her role in the reproductive process is not complete. Forcing her to complete the process-nor not complete it- is reproductive abuse.

          • Ohone

            But women choosing to have children while forcing a non consensual fathers to finance that decision under the threat of state violence isn’t reproductive abuse!

            The system and people like yourself, condone female to male reproductive abuse.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “But women choosing to have children while forcing a non consensual fathers to finance that decision under the threat of state violence isn’t reproductive abuse!”
            Correct!! Very good!

          • Ohone

            Then there is your proof that the system supports and condones female reproductive abusers.

          • Unicorn Farm

            How paying child support, which is not a part of the reproductive process, “reproductive abuse?”

            Once a man has ejaculated, his role in the reproductive process is complete. The woman having the child is not “reproductive abuse.”

            When a woman is pregnant, her role in the reproductive process is not complete. Forcing her to complete the process-nor not complete it- is reproductive abuse.

          • HeilMary1

            NOBODY made you whiny men have sex with those women! Get a vasectomy if you’re so paranoid!

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You are pro female to male reproductive abuse. ”

            Cute, editing your post after I’ve responded. See below. It is not abuse to make choices without your permission.

          • Ohone

            She can make the choice to have the baby if she wants.

            Where her rights should end is the choice to force non consensual men to finance her decision.

          • Unicorn Farm

            It isn’t HER right to force fathers to pay child support. The right doesn’t belong to the woman. It’s the CHILD’S right to monetary support. If the father had custody, the child would still have the right to support from the mother.
            Lord have mercy, this isn’t complex. Admit that you just don’t want to pay your child support obligations.

          • Ohone

            Point to where I argued against child support false accuser.

            Arguing against reproductive abuse is not arguing against child support.

            People that agree they want children together should support their children.

            Women who commit reproductive and child abuse by having children with no consensual, present and suitable father and then using violence to have him pay for her abuse is the issue.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar you is ignoring that those women didn’t force those men to have sex with them. Most men initially like the idea of kids until they actually arrive and involve work and money.

          • lady_black

            So it’s HER fault if the man disappears himself when he finds out that parenting is actually work, or the child is special needs, or she leaves the marriage because she refuses to take his crap. It’s HER fault, because she has no signed consent (which can be destroyed or lost in a fire, lost in a move, etc.) You are batshit crazy.

          • HeilMary1

            He’s probably spoiled whiny James Cusick.

          • HeilMary1

            You are pro male to unwanted forced-birth child abuse.

          • HeilMary1

            Women are damned no matter what they do!

          • lady_black

            Arrange it properly?? You mean like him begging me not to have an abortion, and marrying me? Done and done. Go screw yourself.

          • HeilMary1

            Most women wouldn’t “selfishly” have those children if they were allowed to know ahead of time by the RCC about frequent grisly pregnancy complications. You should really be fighting Crisis Pregnancy Centers that bully women to stay pregnant and throw away any contraception.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “No. What has changed is teaching women that reproductive abuse is ok”

            Who do you believe taught women reproductive abuse is ok, and how did they do it? Is your argument that all men who accidentally father children that they do not wish to parent are victims of reproductive abuse?

            “Enthusiastic, consensual father tend to fulfill their obligations.”
            Citation needed for implied assumption that fathers who are enthusiastic and consensual always remain so.

          • Ohone

            “Who do you believe taught women reproductive abuse is ok, and how did they do it?”

            People like you that support the idea that women don’t need enthusiastic, consensual fathers.

            “Is your argument that all men who accidentally father children that they do not wish to parent are victims of reproductive abuse?”

            There isn’t any such thing as accidentally fathering a child. There are accidental pregnancies. Women have 100% control over whether children are born with no consensual, enthusiastic father.

            Yes, I think in the case of the woman that doesn’t get a willing and consensual father, the man and the child as well as the system are being abused.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Who do you believe taught women reproductive abuse is ok, and how did they do it?”

            People like you that support the idea that women don’t need enthusiastic, consensual fathers.”

            This is unintelligible. What is your definition of reproductive abuse?

            “There isn’t any such thing as accidentally fathering a child. There are accidental pregnancies.”
            Which men are in part responsible for.
            “Women have 100% control over whether children are born with no consensual, enthusiastic father.”
            Except for when a man tells her he is enthusiastic, she gives birth, and he abandons her and the baby.

          • Ohone

            Men who agree to have children with women, and then abandon them are wrong. A system of consent to father hood would prevent this.

            Women who decide to have children with no consensual or willing father are wrong, a system of consent to father hood would prevent this.

            Definition of reproductive abuse, forcing or attempting to force another into parenthood against their will and without their consent.

            You support female to male reproductive abuse.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “A system of consent to father hood would prevent this.”

            How would this work?

            “Definition of reproductive abuse, forcing or attempting to force another into parenthood against their will and without their consent.”
            Writing a child support check is not parenthood. It is not reproductive abuse when the man’s role in the reproductive process has ended.

          • lady_black

            We already have one, and that doesn’t stop men from behaving badly. He’s full of schitt.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oh, of course he is. These people are completely deluded.
            Sometimes, when I know they’re hopeless, I enjoy just asking them to explain where they got their “ideas” from, because that reveals as many holes as I could point out without my wasting my time :)
            Anyone who argues from the implicit assumption that it’s women’s fault that men behave badly is more full of manure than my stable of unicorns.

          • Ed

            “Anyone who argues from the implicit assumption that it’s women’s fault that men behave badly is more full of manure than my stable of unicorns.”

            Here you reveal a your animus towards men. You assume it’s only men who behave badly that’s a HUGE problem. Equality is impossible when those promoting it are biased to the core. You see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil when it comes to women and their bad behavior. This became so extreme it pushed MRA’s to the fore. They get support because women in fact do bad things. You need to get over your ‘women are wonderful’ complex which is a relic of a patriarchy that treated women like we would children.

          • HeilMary1

            We know some women behave badly. My anti-choice Catholic extremist mom burned all my skin off as her permanent marital abstinence excuse. You’re missing the fairest doable solution: graphic sex ed and affordable family planning. And you’re missing your biggest saboteurs: pedophile priests.

          • Ohone

            Women would arrange consensual parenthood first if she wanted to procreate or and non intention of aborting, the couple would sign off on it.

            How consent to fatherhood would stop women having children with no consensual, suitable fathers is self explanatory. They would just stop doing it because the victim can get a financial abortion. Then the overwhelming majority of children would be born wanted and looked after by both parents.

            I like your little rationalization for female to male reproductive abuse.

            A woman can rape, sabotage bc, lie – chose to have a child with a non consensual father and then have the state lean violence against his body and extract labour for 18 years … but its not abuse.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Women would arrange consensual parenthood first if she wanted to procreate or and non intention of aborting, the couple would sign off on it.”

            This is barely coherent.

            “How consent to fatherhood would stop women having children with no consensual, suitable fathers is self explanatory.”

            I didn’t ask you what result you wanted the system to have, I asked you how it would operate. Don’t be an idiot.

            “victim”

            Lol.

            “A woman can rape, sabotage bc, lie – chose to have a child with a non consensual father and then have the state lean violence against his body and extract labour for 18 years … and its not abuse.”
            Rape and birth control sabotage is reproductive abuse. Child support is not.

          • Ed

            Your response was incoherent not their comment.

            “I didn’t ask you what result you wanted the system to have, I asked you how it would operate. Don’t be an idiot.”

            I agree that assuming this would end unwanted children is overly idealistic. Operation wise you work backwards from the rights you want to grant. If it’s financial abortion then I’d imagine a man would have to go to court or fill out some paper work and hand it to the women in a timely manner or have an pre-coitus agreement. Alternatively we could require a consent form be signed by the man to be the father of a child. That way if a women leaves the man without telling him she is pregnant she can’t come back later asking for money.

            None of this impedes women’s right to abort or have the child, it only expands men’s right to voluntarily be fathers.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Your response was incoherent not their comment. ”

            Nah nah boo boo?

            “Operation wise you work backwards from the rights you want to grant. If it’s financial abortion then I’d imagine a man would have to go to court or fill out some paper work and hand it to the women in a timely manner or have an pre-coitus agreement. Alternatively we could require a consent form be signed by the man to be the father of a child. That way if a women leaves the man without telling him she is pregnant she can’t come back later asking for money.”
            This is the best you have to offer, for something you’ve clearly thought a lot about. I really can’t even figure out what sort of system you are proposing.

          • HeilMary1

            Then he should get a vasectomy or use double condoms.

          • lady_black

            Such an agreement would never hold up in a court of law. That would be one person, or two people, unilaterally signing away the rights of another who is not a party to their contract. YOU CAN’T DO THAT!

          • Ohone

            Nobody argued child support iin itself s reproductive abuse false accuser.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Ok, then what IS? I’m asking you to tell me.

          • Ohone

            You are making absurd false accusations and expect others to take the time out to explain things to you despite the risk of doing that only for you to come back with more feminist style dishonesty and false accusations? Good luck with that.

          • Ohone

            Nobody said child support was in itself reproductive abuse false accuser.

            Whats reproductive abuse is forcing parental obligations on people that never consented to have children with you.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Oooh, ok, so child support obligations that you don’t LIKE are abusive. Child support obligations that arise when you got a woman pregnant but she had a baby without your permission is reproductive abuse-EVEN THOUGH the man’s role in reproduction is ended.

            Cool. That argument is going to go far.

          • HeilMary1

            I suspect he opposes contraception and abortion, but is whining about child support burdens on men to guilt trip single women into complete abstinence. That’s convoluted Catholicism at its sneakiest.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Likely. All his rambling about “false accusers” just reeks of general contempt for women’s sexuality. It’s like an MRA dog whistle.

          • Ohone

            Parenthood and the following child support obtained through abuse is obviously abusive to the man, the child, the system and society.

            The only people financial abortion affects are would be reproductive abusers.

          • HeilMary1

            Then you whiny playboys should keep your pants zipped or change your orientation.

          • HeilMary1

            You forced birthers / deadbeat daddies should be jailed every time childbirth injures and or kills women. Maybe then you’ll get a clue about the real price women pay with their bodies.

          • lady_black

            You MUST be shrooming.

          • lady_black

            We already have a system of consent to fatherhood. It happens every time a man talks a woman out of having an abortion, marries her and takes responsibility for the child. He doesn’t get to back out of that when the relationship doesn’t work out, and he doesn’t get a say over what she does with her body.

          • Ed

            “He doesn’t get to back out of that when the relationship doesn’t work out, and he doesn’t get a say over what she does with her body.”

            The system is unfair to men which is why men are complaining. A man who is married at the time of birth is forced to pay child support for children that aren’t even his under the laws of many states. Tell me you can’t see the injustice in that.

          • HeilMary1

            Then don’t marry women with kids by other men.

          • lady_black

            That’s debatable. There is a presumption of paternity, but it’s a rebuttable presumption. However, you have to act at the time. If you have reason to believe a child isn’t yours, and you continue to cohabit you have condoned the adultery, and if you decide to play daddy then you are estopped from changing your mind later. If there is any suspicion, get a paternity test done discretely before the divorce is final. Don’t be stupid.

          • Ohone

            The thing about feminists is the dishonesty.

            Point me to where someone argued that a man gets to back out after he agreed with her they were going to be parents and a child is born, false accuser.

            We don’t have consent to fatherhood, just look at all the anti consent to fatherhood people on this thread.

          • HeilMary1

            All five of you is not a tsunami! How about you cheapskate women haters keep it in your pants or hook up with fellas instead?

          • lady_black

            In my mind, you consent to the possibility of fatherhood when you have unprotected sex. That’s biology. Protect thy self. Even then, a pregnancy may happen even if both are careful. You need to accept you are not always going to get your own way. You may want a child and she doesn’t. You may want an abortion and she doesn’t. You may both want a child and lose it anyway. You want guarantees. There are none to give you. Better than, that you become well acquainted with your right hand. From what I can see, that’s the partner you deserve.

          • HeilMary1

            Mother-killing liar, you have completely conflated mother-saving, pedophile priest-opposed safe sex into picking CONSENSUAL men’s pockets! It is extremely difficult for women to rape men, so pregnancies resulting from such are virtually impossible. Because abortion is legal, you want all men to punish all women for consensual sex by cutting off child support for any resulting kids. Because you can’t get abortion banned, you now want to starve all non-aborted kids! You’re a child-starving pig!

            We support equal female and male access to safe non-procreative sex. You support starvation of all kids whose spoiled dads walk away just to punish feminists! Thanks to our non-stop wars, there is a huge male shortage here, hence all the divorced mothers and spinsters like me who will never get husbands. If you restricted all procreating to the married only, abortions would double, and half of all schools would close, because 50% of women will be single at any given time.

          • HeilMary1

            “Except for when a man tells her he is enthusiastic, she gives birth, and he abandons her and the baby.”

            Which is 50% of all marriages!

          • HeilMary1

            Most GOPers and Catholic-run nations are re-criminalizing all contraception, abortions and even miscarriages, so most women don’t have the 100% control you fatuously allege. And fetal idolaters oppose abortion even for rape victims, so don’t pretend rape pregnancies are women’s fault!

          • lady_black

            Yeah I had one of those. It didn’t work out. NOW WHAT???

          • Ed

            “Enthusiastic, consensual father tend to fulfill their obligations.”Citation needed for implied assumption that fathers who are enthusiastic and consensual always remain so.

            I see the words “TEND TO” plain as day, but your bias must lead to sporadic bouts of blindness.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Fine. They tend to. Doesn’t change the fact that the functionality of your entire system hinges on the false notion that enthusiastic fathers will always be so.

          • lady_black

            “Tend to” AIN’T GOOD ENOUGH. Someone has to make sure they do. Thus family courts. Because as we all know, men who sign papers never change their minds. HORSE HOCKEY.

          • lady_black

            No, they often change their minds when things don’t go the way they want. And that’s another problem I have with MRAs. Yes women initiate divorces. We’re allowed to do that. Men are allowed to do that, too. Let me explain what I learned when I studied family law. Child support isn’t always paid by the man to the woman. It’s always paid by the non-custodial parent to the custodial parent (gender neutral). Family courts are not courts of “equality.” They are courts of equity. Learn the difference. There cannot be “equality” unless both parties are in equal positions (make exactly the same amount of money, and have equal parenting time available). How often does that happen? For that matter, how many married men have the expectation of taking off work because a child is ill, has a doctor appointment, or is off from school that day? The parent who makes more money will always be expected to pay more toward the support of a child, because we don’t punish the child because his parents got divorced. Sometimes that’s the male and sometimes it’s the female.

          • Ohone

            Sure men often change their minds after wanting to have children, that’s why we have all this proof of it happening … oh wait … we don’t.

            Anyhow, consent to fatherhood would safeguard against that.

            “It’s always paid by the non-custodial parent to the custodial parent (gender neutral).”

            Yes we know that.

            And then the main care giver is given automatic parental and custody rights, while the breadwinner has to apply putting the type of main care giver that uses children and access to children as a weapon at an advantage.

            But that’s all beside the point because we are taking about couples that want their children.

            What we are taking about is woman’s right to commit reproductive abuse against non consensual fathers and teaching women that its their right and choice to do this.

          • HeilMary1

            REAL reproductive abuse is committed by fetal idolaters who deny all women access to contraception, sterilization and abortions just so pedophile priests will have unlimited victims. If MRAs are worried about child support, they should either obey priests’ propaganda and keep their pants zipped, or do what priests secretly do: use condoms and send their knocked-up to Planned Parenthood on the days their posse of protesters are elsewhere.

          • lady_black

            So… In essence, you think getting my lying deadbeat ex-husband to sign something saying he consented to fatherhood would have made a difference. How about the marriage license we got after I had his baby? I do believe he had to sign that. I don’t know what you’re smoking, but pass it over here!

          • HeilMary1

            “Enthusiastic, consensual father tend to fulfill their obligations.”

            No, they don’t! Sandy Wilson’s husband dumped her and their son when her c-section got infected with $5,000,000 flesh-eating bacteria! 50% of American mothers suffer bladder and bowel incontinence as they age, hence our 50% divorce rate! My best friend got bullied into breeding for her new husband, even though her oncologists warned them another pregnancy would weaponize her in-remission face cancer. When she was 5 months pregnant, he started beating her for “looking fat”, then in the delivery room he yelled at her because the delivery made her anus pop out! He abandoned her almost immediately and kidnapped their new daughter. Her cancer soon returned and even though he admitted molesting their daughter, he got to keep her because the mother lost the nose on her face giving birth to her own OTHER WOMAN!

            Most men cheat and leave when they find out how disfiguring and expensive fatherhood is. Why do you think the “marriage-promoting” Vatican bans marriage for priests to “piles of dung” MOTHERS?!

          • Ed

            “Based on my experience with MRAs, the movement is populated with individuals-men and women- who are deeply and often violently sexist.”

            That’s sounds like radical feminism which went mainstream a while ago. Of course radical feminism rejects men in feminism while there is no radical MRA branch rejecting women or silencing their voices. Female MRA’s are free to speak and are rarely even questioned by other MRA’s. The female voices are among the best and the brightest, and earn the highest respect for their intellectual gifts and rhetorical brilliance. Think Emma Goldman.

            Feminist on the other hand are stuck in the dark ages where you are not even sure if men should be allowed to speak on your behalf and have limited them to repeating women’s perspectives pre-approved by feminists consensus ahead of time. You can’t even practice gender equality in your own movement but you want to dictate what it is for everyone else.

            BTW: Men and women LOVE EACH OTHER!

            STOP HATE MONGERING!

          • Unicorn Farm

            Not even going to read this ridiculous screed that doesn’t address my point.

          • lady_black

            Listen up, Ed. I LOVE my husband. I’m married to the best man in the whole world, and I can’t believe how incredibly fortunate I am that I found him, and I frequently tell others how awesome he is. He really IS awesome. But let’s get one thing straight. Except for the most mundane of situations, my husband would never presume to speak on my behalf. That’s MY job, so long as I’m able to do it. When I’m unconscious, THEN he gets to speak on my behalf, and I have absolute confidence in him to do what I want him to do. Why? Because I’ve told him. I don’t speak on his behalf either, on anything of more consequence than hanging up on sales calls asking for him. I can do that, because I know he doesn’t want to talk to them. I can also be trusted if the time ever comes when I need to speak on his behalf, because he’s told me what he wants. Unfortunately, not all people are blessed with a relationship like the one we have. Reproductive maladaptive behavior occurs in both genders. That does nothing to change the fact that children are entitled to be supported by BOTH their parents, regardless of relationships, intent, discomfort, immaturity, etc. on the part of one or both. That fact will never change.

          • goatini

            Ed’s been a free-lance MRA opiner in the blogosphere for over a decade, and he hasn’t had an intimate relationship with a female for that entire duration.

          • lady_black

            Gee, I can’t imagine why…

          • goatini

            Because he’s a “nice guy” who doesn’t (want to) understand why the best it gets for him is to be friendzoned.

          • Ed

            “That does nothing to change the fact that children are entitled to be supported by BOTH their parents, regardless of relationships, intent, discomfort, immaturity, etc. on the part of one or both. ”

            When does that support start? Some say it does at conception so be careful how you apply general moral principals because it might come back to haunt you. As far as a child’s entitlement to parental support then if the state is supporting a women with a child is that not abdicating her responsibility to provide? The support for children needn’t come from parents or adoption would be illegal.

            Feminist men should be able to speak on equality without women’s approval from a male perspective if they wish. They cannot because feminists women will socially ostracize them for not slavishly following their talking points. It’s a system of control and oppression not equality. To say you are equal if and only if you favor my gender at all times is not equality. This disconnect is what gave rise to MRA’s in the first place who might otherwise be feminist.

            The fact MRA’s TRULY support equality is exactly why they need not police female MRA’s who merely need to treat the sexes the same to gain support.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, feminism is about equality, not superiority.

          • lady_black

            I don’t give two shits what “some say” because here’s what happens at conception. NOTHING. In order for *anything* to happen, a pregnancy must first occur. Most conceptions never make it that far. Adoption is a transference of rights and obligations. They don’t go away. They are voluntarily given to another. Now where you have a child that has not been relinquished for adoption, and is with the biological parent, the other biological parent has to contribute. In the case of a woman on welfare, the support goes back to the state. That’s how it works. I don’t know why you get so fixated on welfare. Welfare benefits are gender neutral. So please let’s not see “welfare” appear in your posts again. It’s not relevant.

          • expect_resistance

            Sorry but we are not buying what you’re selling.

          • HeilMary1

            You women haters should stop trafficking our wombs for pedophile priests. How dark ages of you to oppose equal pay and access to safe sex.

          • HeilMary1

            “Yes, many men across demographics HAVE lost the notion that they should fulfill their obligations as a father to their children.”

            That goes double for playboy priests and GOP wife dumpers.

          • HeilMary1

            Your GOP wars have killed off the millions of husbands those dreaded single mothers would have gladly married. Don’t blame feminists because the Bushes, Cheneys, and Kochs became trillionaires over soldiers’ dead bodies!

          • Ed

            I think it means ‘does not control men’ or force them to be fathers. Women are free to do what they want and so are men. I think that’s equality not forcing men to do what women want because they are women.

        • grantal

          No it is biology that forces women into pregnancy. In other words we were not given a choice about the matter just like men. It just happens when it wants to sometimes no matter how many precautions are taken. Seriously one woman had her tubes tied and still got pregnant! So it is BOTH the responsibility o f both the man and the women and both the sexes should be taught not to be flippant and careless about sex in general. We both have to learn much more self control BOTH of the sexes equally.It is STILL the women who bears the brunt of the burden physically and emotionally. Men can walk away a women cannot unless she gets an abortion and that is not an easy.opt out. Women should not be shamed into trying to control sexuality and men should be taught that sex is not just an act for pleasure for them.

          • ohreginald

            “It just happens when it wants to sometimes no matter how many precautions are taken. Seriously one woman had her tubes tied and still got pregnant! So it is BOTH the responsibility o f both the man and the women”

            Someone gets it. Sex isn’t a signed contract for kids

            Although this:
            “Men can walk away”
            Is incorrect – men get jailed for not paying

          • lady_black

            A judge can’t make you be a father. That’s something you have to want to do. But he can make you pay. That’s fine by me.

          • ohreginald

            But that’s the point, isn’t it? If the guy wants to be a father, he should have parental rights as a mother does, if he doesn’t he should have *similar* rights as the mother does – if she can defer or transfer responsibility, why are you so against that option for the father?

            If the guy is in no financial position to pay, what benefit is there to locking them up on something out if their control? They get jailed because they can’t pay, they then can’t get jobs because they’re jailed, they’re not earning, the child gets no support, so really what’s at the crux? I get that you have issue with your ex, but not every other man is your ex, not every situation is yours. If you default on a payment on that car I made you pay for, are you happy to go to jail? If one of your sons accidentally gets a girl pregnant are you happy for his punishment?

          • Unicorn Farm

            “But that’s the point, isn’t it? If the guy wants to be a father, he should have parental rights as a mother does, if he doesn’t he should have *similar* rights as the mother does – if she can defer or transfer responsibility, why are you so against that option for the father?”
            My understanding is that in some, if not all, states, he can relinquish his parental rights. He has the same rights and freedoms she has. You can calm down now.

          • ohreginald

            Citations please. If it’s true then it’s a step the right direction and more in line with Men’s Rights than the absolute bullshit the author has written

            Also I am calm, are you not?

          • Unicorn Farm

            I refer you to Lady_Black’s on-point post. I won’t give you a cite ’cause I don’t want to make assertions about things I’m not more sure of. Google it yourself if you are so inclined. Honestly, I’d figure an MRA who was so concerned about his rights to avoid child support would already know.
            I’m perfectly calm. Your desperate rambling about jail and crushed father’s rights made me think you were not.

          • lady_black

            I’m sorry to inform you that you were given incorrect information. The only way support obligations can be avoided is 1) both parents relinquish the child for adoption, or 2) another man is willing to adopt the child, preferably a husband. If you think the state’s interests are served by rendering children fatherless, you got a couple more “thinks” coming. That is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Remember what I told you before? Child support is the right of the child. Not your right. You can’t unilaterally discharge someone else’s rights. That’s not even nice to think about. And it’s quite illegal.

          • lady_black

            Not in this state. State interests aren’t being served by allowing men to abandon their children. There has to be another man willing to adopt.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Thanks for pointing this out- I totally agree that this serves no legitimate interests. I’m honestly not super familiar with what the laws are from state to state and am willing to be corrected/educated if anyone is!

          • lady_black

            My sons aren’t that stupid, or irresponsible. This isn’t about my sons, who have NEVER financially abandoned their children. Coincidentally my ex always seemed to come up with money when he was threatened with jail. Funny how that works, isn’t it?

          • lady_black

            Oh I also meant to tell you it doesn’t work that way when men are jailed for non-support. If they have jobs, they keep their job and go to work every day. They take their tails back to the jail after work and sleep there. Their child gets all the wages, minus room and board to stay to in jail. Judges aren’t stupid, you know?

          • grantal

            I don’t know many men who have been jailed but have heard that their pay is docked if they don’t pay child support if it is pursued. The main problem here is that the poor child winds up the loser in any case and it is not the kids fault they did not ask to be born. Sad state of affairs in any case and it just perpetuates the problem.

          • HeilMary1

            Men were never jailed over the past centuries, and most deadbeat daddies still avoid jail. However, many Latin nations and GOP-controlled states are now jailing women for MISCARRIAGES.

          • Ohone

            Your argument is dishonest, flawed and it erases female agency.

            Pregnancy does not equal child. Women who are pregnant and want the child have the child, women that don’t have the choice not to.

            Women have 100% control and choice over whether they have a child with no consensual father.

          • HeilMary1

            Ever hear of rape and the Vatican war on safe non-procreative sex? Women are lucky if they have 30% control over their bodies.

          • Ohone

            Obviously any argument for consent to fatherhood and financial abortion is invalid in places there is no clear access to abortion.

            Its only valid in places where women have 100% control over their reproduction.

            You don’t even know what you are arguing about, do you?

          • grantal

            Dishonest? not me I say it as I have lived it and see it. Since when do men want to be actual “dads”? There are so few men who want to be real dads. That is what I have lived and seen. I also believe that men who don’t abuse or are violent should have equal custody to their children. Some men want everything on a silver platter. I think you are getting a good lesson on how women have lived since the beginning of time. Life is just damn unfair and you have to prove your worth.

          • expect_resistance

            Not even close to the truth.

        • HeilMary1

          You mean like Manila where pedophile priests have successfully banned birth control for the poor and the priests get away with child sex trafficking?

          • Ohone

            No false accuser, that’s not what I mean.

        • expect_resistance

          You keep living in that fantasy land.

      • iliketurtlez

        If a man doesn’t want to be a father, he can have a vasectomy, wear a condom, or not engage in vaginal intercourse.

        If you said the same things about women (shoulda got tubes tied, used protection, kept legs closed), you’d be called a sexist. And rightfully so. Your support of double standards makes you the one who is sexist, so yes, it is misandry. It’s the MRAs who are the closest thing to egalitarian I’ve seen. When women have choices after intercourse, to include dropping the kid off at a safe-haven shelter and never informing the dad, asking that men also have a similar way to opt out of parenthood is a matter of equality.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “If you said the same things about women (shoulda got tubes tied, used protection, kept legs closed), you’d be called a sexist. And rightfully so.”
          False. Both parents are financially obligated to a born child. Women can be required to pay child support, too.
          It is, of course, ideal, if women who do not wish to become pregnant use birth control, etc. Using birth control or remaining abstinent is a smart idea for both men and women to avoid unwanted pregnancy. It is not sexist to make that suggestion. However, women they do not use birth control, or if their birth control fails, this does not justify abrogating their right to bodily autonomy. That is what sexists argue- women that have sex lose their right to bodily autonomy. No one is arguing that men should lose their right to bodily autonomy if they have sex.

        • lady_black

          Nobody said men should keep their legs closed. Women will not stop having sex. Maybe they ought to stop having sex with men’s rights knuckle-dragging swine. Yes birth control should absolutely be used. But listen up, Buster. If you want to act like some little Johnny Appleseed, carelessly spreading your seed around and moving on, to the extent that you can’t keep track of it, remember women DON’T have that option. We have to keep track of our gametes. THAT’S EQUALITY! If you were so fucking “concerned” there is no way in hell a woman could have a baby by you and drop it off at a fire station without your knowledge. Growing a baby takes nine months. Why don’t you grow up?

          • Ed

            That was a strange rant. I think I’ll leave that alone but your contempt for men was pretty evident and I hope you never have any sons.

          • goatini

            Meanwhile, the MRA contempt for females with rights and autonomy is MORE than evident on this board, and their projection of their contempt upon the object of their contempt is, sadly, typical.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep, we’ve seen this before. Nothing shocking.

          • lady_black

            I have two sons. Both now grown and incredibly respectful of women. I must have done something right.

          • P. McCoy

            You have contempt for women. I feel sorry for the hive minded ones that you tricked into dealing with you. To wit: why does a guy think that simply because he has a p****k, limp, working or not, that he’s some sort of master of the universe. That sort of jerk just makes my gelding fingers itchy.

          • expect_resistance

            Everything the MRAs have said here has been an unfounded rant of bs. Get real.

      • Ed

        “There is no such thing as a “financial abortion” and there never will be. Child support is the right of the child, and not the right of the woman.”

        We already have financial abortion, it’s called adoption. What some MRA’s want is to expand that right to either parent independent of whether or not a biological parent keeps custody. Right now we only allow financial abortion for adoption by third parties approved by the state. I think it could be made more flexible.

        “If a man doesn’t want to be a father, he can have a vasectomy, wear a condom, or not engage in vaginal intercourse.”

        Please don’t use standards for men that any pro life person could easily turn around and use against women. That’s not smart. Show the same compassion for men that you do women. That’s equality.

        • lady_black

          I’m using the same standards we women have to live with. If we don’t want to become pregnant, we use birth control, get our tubes tied, do something other than traditional sex, masturbation (another option for men as well). So don’t bother “turning it around.” It’s already turned around.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “Please don’t use standards for men that any pro life person could easily turn around and use against women. That’s not smart. Show the same compassion for men that you do women. That’s equality.”
          No. It is OK to suggest that men and women both make smart choices to use contraception when they don’t want to have children. It is not OK to suggest that that women lose their right to bodily autonomy because they have sex (what anti-abortion individuals argue).

          • Ed

            Personal responsibility talk is the slippery slope the pro choice movement is sliding down. You’re ‘bodily autonomy’ isn’t really a winning moral argument when you gave opportunity for the sperm to fertilize the egg and some argue that created a new autonomous body that’s only temporarily dependent on the parent for support, since you also argue children are entitled to support, you lose again.

            I think MRA’s could help you make better arguments but you have to drop the gender bias.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “You’re ‘bodily autonomy’ isn’t really a winning moral argument when you gave opportunity for the sperm to fertilize the egg and some argue that created a new autonomous body that’s only temporarily dependent on the parent for support, since you also argue children are entitled to support, you lose again.”
            1) The fetus is, by definition, not autonomous.
            2) There is a huge difference between financial and bodily support. Financial resources can be compelled; bodily resources never can.
            I don’t lose. Try again.

            “I think MRA’s could help you make better arguments but you have to drop the gender bias.”

            Lol. I think my arguments are doing just fine against yours, thanks. It’s not men I have an issue with, its sexist MRAs I dislike.

          • lady_black

            The old “autonomous fetus” gambit. LOL. They just can’t help themselves, can they?

          • Unicorn Farm

            Right?? If it’s so autonomous, what’s the issue, I guess I’ll just go ahead and introduce it to life outside my body. Oh wait…

          • lady_black

            “Children” ARE entitled to support. Zygotes, embryos and fetuses are entitled to nothing. See the difference?

          • goatini

            MRAs: Want to insert themselves where they are not needed or wanted, to “help” us think and “train” us how to think.

          • Unicorn Farm

            #mansplain

          • HeilMary1

            Your gender bias against us women as throw-away incubators for pedophile priests doesn’t justify forcing us to always risk bladder and bowel incontinence, multiple organ failures, flesh eating bacteria amputations, cancer, and death every time we have sex. Your safe sex apartheid argument is as disgusting as denying safe delicious food for women while allowing men daily pig-outs. Suppose the American food industry was run by misogynistic religious anorexics who imposed such gender apartheid on all food consumption? — men could safely feast as they pleased, while women would only be served moldy crackers and sewer water, and if they dared cheat, they’d be arrested, tortured and even executed. Moreover, while surgeons could stomach staple and liposuction men’s bodies to Kingdom Come, they’d also face prison or worse if they provided the same to “food-abusing” women.

        • HeilMary1

          Adoption doesn’t solve the problem of grisly childbirth injuries and deaths that most fathers will never suffer. I say most fathers, because I do know of one father killed by his daughter who triggered his fatal stress heart attack after she killed her mother/his wife with breast cancer. If you want to free men of child support burdens, you must support women’s access to affordable, reliable family planning, but the pedophile priest-run RCC/GOP viciously oppose sterilizations, contraception and abortions, even to save women’s lives.

          • Ed

            MRA’s are NOT anti abortion so I don’t see a lack of support here. IN fact they seem rather enthusastic about abortion because the idea of a man paying for this unwanted child for 18 years scares the crap out of them.

            Feminist got beat by the GOP because they failed to gain support from women on the right. Instead of pretending they don’t exists so you can blame men why don’t you deal with the moral arguments leading voters to support pro-life positions.

          • lady_black

            We don’t care if you’re enthusiastic about abortion, Ed. Your views about abortion are immaterial, because you will never be pregnant.

          • HeilMary1

            Why don’t YOU deal with the grisly, deadly and bankrupting reasons why most women don’t want to risk childbirth every time they have sex and why pedophile priests deny them the self-defense of contraception?! There is nothing moral about your pro-dead mother bullies.

          • ljean8080

            This girl did not ask to be born.Why blame her for what happened?I feel so sorry for her.

          • HeilMary1

            I feel sorry her DEAD mom and dad, ORPHANED older siblings, grieving aunt and uncle (my ex-coworker at USAToday) and grandparents.

          • ljean8080

            Why do you blame an innocen,child for this,do you want her tried for murder??Maybe her siblings caused the cancer,.

          • HeilMary1

            “Maybe her siblings caused the cancer.”

            You just contradicted yourself and made my point: — fetuses, especially female ones, cause cancer in mothers! In this girl’s case, her older siblings were male, so she caused the cancer. I could use your twisted logic and chide YOU for “blaming her innocent brothers!”

          • ljean8080

            I HOPE she is being raised with love.

          • HeilMary1

            What about her brothers? Don’t they count?

          • ljean8080

            Of course,I hope all the kids are in a happy and loving home.

          • HeilMary1

            And what about the DEAD parents? — they’d still be alive if they had adopted someone else’s daughter instead.

          • ljean8080

            That was THEIR choice,not hers.

          • HeilMary1

            They wouldn’t have chosen that if they knew the wife faced lethal breast cancer. But antis keep insisting pregnancy is never dangerous for women. The aunt, who is a physician, suspected the last pregnancy triggered the cancer, so she spent a year searching medical journals and concluded exactly that.

          • expect_resistance

            Do you live on sunshine and rainbows?

          • expect_resistance

            Did you read what she said or just interject your standard anti-choice line.

          • expect_resistance

            The stalker us back. It’s creepy that it only replys to you.

        • Shan

          “We already have financial abortion, it’s called adoption. What some MRA’s want is to expand that right to either parent independent of whether or not a biological parent keeps custody.”

          What does that mean, exactly?

          • HeilMary1

            And yet the same MRA-TeaTards whine when taxes support abandoned kids!

          • lady_black

            It means they want to divorce their children. Ain’t gonna happen.

    • HeilMary1

      The number one cause of fatherless families is HUSBAND-KILLING WARS instigated by GOP war profiteer billionaires. Because our non-stop wars have created massive male shortages around the globe, leftover widows, spinsters and divorcees are forced to share looksist playboy war veteran wife dumpers like John McCain and Bob Dole. Men and women need to start saying no to WAR WHORES.

  • iliketurtlez

    “MRAs push for a more patriarchal society”

    Last time I checked, it’s feminists who still support gender roles and stereotypes for half of the population. They don’t believe men can be victims of sexism or female-on-male rape, just like the patriarchy. They believe men are not to be trusted with kids and fight in favor of custody courts remaining favorable to mothers, just like the patriarchy…

    • goatini

      Baloney.

    • fiona64

      Citations needed. A whole, big slew of them.

      • goatini

        He’s citing Amneus, line and verse.

        • fiona64

          Of course he is … which means he’s a plagiarist on top of everything else.

    • expect_resistance

      Citation needed.

  • sophie

    Marcus Lee, thank you for writing this article.
    Every single time I see anything remotely critical of MRA’s, the avalanche of nasty vitriolic comments begin. The author should be proud– obviously the truth will bite misogynistic individuals in the ass.
    If these scared, pathetic excuses for human beings are so sincere about the autonomy of women and they are not anti-choice, then why are they constantly demonizing feminism, and denying the FACT that women of all races and backgrounds are subjected to oppression and abuse generally delivered from patriarchal males?
    Obviously, MRA’s like to cloak their misogyny in claiming they have no such intentions, but simply read their “comments.” That is all one needs to prove that they have an entirely anti-woman agenda.

    • Ed

      These are outright lies not mild criticism. If they were MRA positions then MRA’s would defend them. You are playing that feminists can do know wrong game where the ends always justify the means. That’s the same game where white women’s wants come before disadvantaged minority men’s needs in social justice. It’s time for the manipulation and vile mind games to stop. These ‘mean girl’ games aren’t social justice, it’s old fashion middle school bullying on a national scale.

      “f these scared, pathetic excuses for human beings are so sincere about the autonomy of women and they are not anti-choice, then why are they constantly demonizing feminism, and denying the FACT that women of all races and backgrounds are subjected to oppression and abuse generally delivered from patriarchal males?”

      Ok I see the game now. The screwed up SNL sketch turns into a meme and you use it against Men’s Rights knowing darn well it’s not on their platform and never was. That’s why you yourself are trying to convince yourself. You’ve never seen MRA’s run to deny something like this and your starting to feel guilty. You can’t lie yourself into more integrity and if you want to get real dirty these lovely white men might turn on white women the same way those white women turned on them. In my opinion we don’t need either of you dragging down social justice because you don’t know how to get along. What ever happened to social justice being for the poor? That ended when white women took over and decided it was a fine weapon to bully their men, poor people be damned.

      Go hate men on your own time but don’t call it equality or social justice. It’s more like vindictive, petty, evil, and malicious like an entitled brat who thinks she’s owed the world for being born. Abortion as an issue isn’t split on gender lines. Support between the sexes is a mere 6 points apart. 45% of women identify as pro life but you think man hating will get you there. How foolish you are and poor women have suffered for your arrogance.

      • HeilMary1

        99% of women are pro-choice when their OWN bodies are threatened by female fetus-caused face cancers and obstetric bladder and bowel incontinence. Sadly, our lame MSM rarely mentions these commonplace pregnancy complications that drive men into abandoning women and refusing to support their own kids. Unwanted pregnancies are the number one cause of female poverty and disability.

  • goatini

    aaaaaaand… the MRA trolls crawl out of the woodwork, on time and on schedule.

    I’ll say it again: Sorry, MRAs, but you do NOT have abortion “rights”. TBSS

    • Ed

      Of course they don’t so why are you accusing them of trying ban it or alter it in anyway. I knew sometimes we play dirty on the left but this is ridiculous.

      • goatini

        Asserting that others do not have a right to my body isn’t “playing dirty” to anyone with a conscience.

        • Ed

          Quote one single MRA site, blog, or even comment suggesting a effort to ban abortion . JUST ONE! !! !

          I have never seen it once in 5 years. These are straight lies. It’s like me claiming feminists killed Kennedy or something else absurdly stupid.

          • expect_resistance

            MRAs are pro-choice for men, if it gets them out of fatherhood or anti-abortion when if it keeps them from being fathers when they want to.

          • Chris Moore

            That is absolutely untrue. Bodily autonomy is not questioned…

          • HeilMary1

            Maybe YOU don’t oppose bodily autonomy for women, but most MRA trolls here do. Here is a good example in my district:

            http://www . washingtonpost . com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/03/AR2008020302821 . html

            Irresponsible Peter Pan James P. Cusick, Sr. opposes abortion but divorced his young wife and refused to support their son, and avoided gainful employment for many years to continue stiffing him.

          • Chris Moore

            LOL, how do you strawman with someone who has no affiliation to the MHRM? Don’t you think you are stretching just a little?

          • HeilMary1

            I gave you a real example of a local anti-choice, anti-child support JAILED DEADBEAT DADDY “U.S. congressional candidate”, and you call that a strawman?!?!

          • Chris Moore

            I thought the attack was on MRAs, can you enlighten me?

          • HeilMary1

            Most of the MRAs who troll here don’t want to give up sex with women but then oppose those same women accessing affordable contraception, etc., never mind that the MRAs refuse to support any resulting children. Their excuse is: “If your girlfriends can get legal abortions, why should I pay for any rug rats that pop out of you, never mind that I bullied you into sex with my fake sob stories?!”

          • Chris Moore

            I know this might come as a surprise, but I have been a single father for years and raised a wonderful daughter. I was also a non-custodial father who happily paid 2k/ mo for her when she lived with her mom. There are more MRAs like me than you might think.

            That does not mean I cant understand and empathize with their position. They wish for a man to have better control of their reproductive rights and the ability to not have fatherhood be forced.

          • HeilMary1

            Then your primary beef should be with the forced-birth-at-any-cost Catholic Church run by and for pedophiles! Imagine if sex ed taught male and female teens alike about childbirth’s grisly disfigurements and horrific expenses? What looks-conscious female teen would chirp: “I want a live baby doll with a cleft lip who will scare strangers, and I want to wear Depends because stinky obstetric incontinence is so much sexier than going to the prom or having a wedding!” ??

            The only reason why so many women plow ahead with motherhood with ambivalent men is because they are CLUELESS about childbirth dangers and expenses. Imagine if sex ed made Amy Herbst a typical example of real motherhood? — male and female students alike would fight over the condom bowl.

            http://nypost . com/2014/01/27/opera-singer-cant-work-over-uncontrollable-flatulence/

          • Chris Moore

            LOL, yeah not crazy about the church’s position. Finally, something we can agree on!

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks! The hypocrite Vatican’s war on safe sex poisons all male-female relationships. Ordinary men are just as victimized by the RCC as women. What man would marry if they understood sex was only for procreating fresh victims for priests? I know of many miserable impoverished large Catholic families. The husbands work 100 hour weeks supporting their 10-20 kids and die prematurely. Meanwhile, priests get away with molesting their neglected kids. The ludicrous MRA attacks on affordable contraception was engineered by priests and you MRAs are their useful fools. If it’s OK for playboy priests to secretly force abortions on their mistresses and rape victims, or dump their kids in Catholic adoption agencies, then ALL non-clergy men and women have the same rights to abortion, contraception and child-free lives. Fair is fair. Most MRAs have been taken over by religious libertarian anti-choicers who want the US to be as impoverished and chaotic as overpopulated Mexico and Manila where ALL men and women suffer equally.

          • cjvg

            Then start demanding more male contraception choices!

            When new male contraceptive options are discovered the pharmaceutical companies put out test surveys to see if there is a market. Everytime it turns out there is no demand and the companies decide not to put the money in developed and research since they would not be able to sell enough to make a profit.

            Obviously you can not blame this on women since they are not the target group!

          • Chris Moore

            LOL, I am not blaming women, where did you get that from? I am very active w/ the vasalgel initiative and given money may times.

            This conversation is interesting. Like I said, I have my issues with LPS myself, but how is this really an attack on women? You are obviously in defensive mode. I can understand the argument for the child’s best interest, I am a single parent who never received an ounce of help from the mother after having to fight for custody (addiction probs 10 years ago). But, really, how is it controlling women’s bodies, or attacking women?

          • Unicorn Farm

            This is false. There’s a subset of the MRA/MGTOW movement that is very religious and very hostile to bodily autonomy.

          • Chris Moore

            Yeah and there are radfems who believe all PIV sex is rape…. SO WHAT!!

          • Unicorn Farm

            So… that means you’re wrong when you say that MRAs don’t question bodily autonomy. Some MRAs very clearly do question bodily autonomy.
            This isn’t complex, y’all. Eye roll.

          • Chris Moore

            LOL, I have been fairly active and I have never known about the orthodox MGTOW movement. Can you link?

            So, if I follow your logic and allow the nutcases to define a movement, I can do the same w/ feminism? Really? Nevermind, I choose not to.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I won’t link to those sites on this computer. Besides, a lot of it comes out in comments, which are all over.

            “So, if I follow your logic and allow the nutcases to define a movement, I can do the same w/ feminism? Really? Nevermind, I choose not to.”
            I don’t understand how you made the leap from my correct assertion that “some MRAs are anti-abortion” to the conclusion that I am attempting to define a movement by nutcases. Calm down.

          • Chris Moore

            LOL, thank you for calming me down. Again, if you don’t want to link the ultra-religious MGTOW sect, I am not sure your assertion is correct.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Right, if I don’t spoon-feed you a link, it’s not true. How infantile. I’m not getting that violent, sexist crap on my browser history.
            I gave a list of blogs downthread. Some of them are ultra-religious/ have commenters who espouse such views.

          • expect_resistance

            Bull.

    • expect_resistance

      Yep, same old song and dance. Didn’t take long of them to get here. *sigh* I’ve really had my limit with trolls lately.

      • Ed

        There is trolling and then there is fighting for justice. If you want to play dirty using power then recognize when you’ve become the oppressor.

        • goatini

          We all know you MRAs liked it better when males had all the power.

          • expect_resistance

            I know it makes them cranky when the wemenz haz the power over their bodies.

          • goatini

            They also liked it better when they could say “How do I know it’s mine?”, and get all of their friends to swear that they too had “known the charms” of the female in question.

          • lady_black

            If I were the judge, back in the day, I would order ALL of them to pay.

          • goatini

            But back in the day, the judge would side with them, because “boys will be boys”.

            In these days, some judges still do this, unfortunately.

          • lady_black

            They can’t because, DNA.

          • goatini

            I was thinking there of some of the recent sexual assault cases that have ended up unprosecuted, because the assaulter and their friends (co-assaulters) swear “she wanted it”, and “boys will be boys”.

          • Ed

            Does the use of Z in place of S make false allegations true?

          • expect_resistance

            What?

          • Ed

            No MRA’s look back and see a system that exploited men for the benefit of women and children. All the responsibility for material support (protection and provision) fell on men. As such MRA’s prefer equality. Men want to be more than walking ATM’s.

          • goatini

            We all know you MRAs would like it even BETTER if males had all the power, AND the females were bringing in income, in addition to continuing to be responsible for Everything Else in the household.

          • Unicorn Farm

            “No MRA’s look back and see a system that exploited men for the benefit of women and children. All the responsibility for material support (protection and provision) fell on men.”
            Yes, and it was that way because men decided that women and children were property and shouldn’t have the means to provide for themselves, so the responsibility fell on men.

            Kind of like how men also had to feed the livestock they owned.
            And yet men still routinely abandoned that responsibility!

          • HeilMary1

            Anti-choice jailed deadbeat daddy James P. Cusick, Sr., who ran against Steny Hoyer in 2008 (and won 30,000 votes!), is a perfect example of crybaby runaway deadbeat daddy fetal idolaters.

          • HeilMary1

            Women want to be more than dumped, disfigured, destitute brood mares for pedophile priests. Instead of attacking women, how about you attacking deadbeat daddy pedophile priests who oppose you having the same burden-free playboy sex they’ve gotten away with for centuries. If pretend-abstinent priests and nuns can be blissfully child-free, non-clergy men and women should enjoy the same non-procreative, non-bankrupting sex.

          • P. McCoy

            Nope men want to be walking sperm shooters and not have to reap any consequences. Heed this saying ladies tell the guy : ” no glove (ie; a condom) no love. ”

          • lady_black

            That’s about the size of it. My ex (who begged me not to abort his child) stopped paying support for so long I was still collecting his arrears when our son was 24 and had long since enlisted in the Navy. I kept pushing, and when they caught up with him, the judge threatened to put him on the penal farm in Shelby County TN. All of a sudden he came up with a thousand dollars. He called me whining about it, and I told him I thought that was a great idea, because at least I would know where he was. LOL. I was in the local papers when President Clinton signed the uniform child support collection act, and they quoted me as saying “if I had to, I would collect it from his estate when he died.” After that he kind of gave up and paid on time. I think they were garnishing his check.

        • expect_resistance

          What a laugh! Ha, I’m my own oppressor? That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve read but go on with your badass self.

        • fiona64

          Right … because cisgendered, heterosexual, caucasian males are *so* oppressed.

          • Ed

            No more like a white women’s movement that would rather pretend men of color don’t exist because it would break their female monopoly on historically oppressed victim status. The difference is minority men and women didn’t rise up because they were tired of being taken care of by white men.

          • P. McCoy

            Uncle toms like other self haters are their own worst oppressors. I have no sympathy for them let the devil care for his own.

          • fiona64

            No more like a white women’s movement that would rather pretend men of
            color don’t exist because it would break their female monopoly on
            historically oppressed victim status.

            Citation needed.

        • Unicorn Farm

          “There is trolling and then there is fighting for justice.”
          Lollllllll

          • expect_resistance

            I kept thinking “trolling for justice.” Like that works.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I’m gonna put that on a tshirt.

          • expect_resistance

            We’ve had a plethora of good t-shirt sayings lately. :)

            I’m also using some of the troll quotes in an art project I’m working on. Great stuff from this thread.

          • Unicorn Farm

            Indeed! We can do a metaphorical installation piece using all of the horse sh*t from my stable of unicorns.

          • expect_resistance

            Seriously, if I ever get this piece finished I will post it here first. :)

    • Masta solanas

      Your projection is showing.

      • goatini

        News flash: projection does NOT mean “observation”. I’m projecting zero here.

        • Masta solanas

          You’re been trolling this thread for a while now trying to cause a flame war with MRAs while MRAs have been diplomatic and cogent in their responses.

          First off, trolls, especially of the feminist variety, do not have the privilege to label others “trolls.”

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the troll here, bucko, not goatini who is beloved by us RHRC regulars.

          • lady_black

            I’ve been here for over a year, and I know goatini. You’re the troll here.

          • Masta solanas

            Seniority means nothing, behavior means everything.

          • lady_black

            According to that standard, you’re still the troll. Happy now?

          • Masta solanas

            You do not get to define that, and besides, you’re objectively wrong.

          • lady_black

            Troll says what?

          • Masta solanas

            Name calling and labeling dissenters. And we’re done here. No need to invest in this petulance. If you have an argument on some issue, I will discuss, otherwise.

          • goatini

            hahahahaha

            All of these petulant, whingy MRA juvenile delinquent trolls just crack me up. Thank Goddess that none of the men in my personal universe are MRA asshats.

          • Masta solanas

            Well, every woman needs a retinue of eunuchs and manginas to do her bidding.

          • goatini

            Yeah, that sounds just like a real chick magnet and man among men. In MRA Bizarro World.

          • expect_resistance

            Only you.

          • expect_resistance

            They are really whiny.

          • expect_resistance

            Oh we’re so sad. Not. Come back anytime ya hear now.

          • Masta solanas

            This is now my home website for commenting. You’ll be seeing a lot of me. haha

          • lady_black

            Don’t be too sure about that. We boot trolls.

          • goatini

            hahahahahaha

            Go back to that cesspool that is the Spearhead, and cry to the rest of your arrested development MRA pals.

          • Masta solanas

            And the troll speakth. haha

          • goatini

            More MRA projecting of contempt upon those whom they hold in contempt. Get stuffed, troll.

          • Masta solanas

            Projecting? Are you stealing my line now? Wow.

          • goatini

            I’ve been discussing the projection that MRAs ritually do of their contempt for females, upon those whom they hold in contempt, since this article was posted. Do try to keep up.

          • Masta solanas

            Then you should go to /r/mensrights, study, and post your findings to the community.

          • goatini

            Too lazy to keep up with the discussion? Or, reading ability and comprehension too poor to do so? Not my problem.

          • Masta solanas

            Watching porn so multitasking.

          • expect_resistance

            Your watching porn and posting here. Wow shocking that an MRA troll would do that.

          • expect_resistance

            You wish. Don’t flatter yourself.

          • expect_resistance

            What does the troll say?

          • lady_black

            Arrested development. Precisely. Perpetual adolescents.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m sure they will go back to the cave of SYG etc. and bitch about who mean blah blah blah femi….. we are. Giant losers. I almost feel sorry for them. On the other hand, not.

          • expect_resistance

            Really? And you get to decide who is a troll here? Yeah, good luck with that one.

          • goatini

            And your behavior, as well as that of all the other MRAs here, sucks.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong. We are a community here. We can sniff out the crap when it shows up.

          • goatini

            Me: regular on RHRC for almost 10 years.

            You: MRA troll.

          • expect_resistance

            These trolls are clueless.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong. Goatini is not a troll. Please try to follow along.

          • cjvg

            So you believe the word feminist is an insult and should be singled out and not given the privilege other posters have, well that says volumes about YOU!

            Let me explain to you what a feminist actually is, apparently you have no clue!
            Feminist ideology does not paint women as victims and men as villains, it paints them (rightfully so) as equals, and deserving of the same rights and protections under the law.

            Your apparent views on feminism are a commonly (and deliberately cherished and widely espoused) misconception of feminism held by some men.

            This wrong perception is clung to with ferocity by certain men since it excuses their failings as the fault of women.

            However just consider this; men are still in charge of the majority of modern American society. Women hold a very small percentage of the leadership positions and generally still make less than men and are subject to violence from men much more than the reverse.

            Women to this day, have to contend with (proposed) laws restricting the autonomy of their medical choices and their sexual choices.

            Women are still subject to the debate if their (existing) lives are more valuable than the (potential life) of the fetus in their womb.

            Women are subject, but not allowed to participate or utter any correct female anatomic terms(see recent house/senate debates) in these debates concerning their lives and control of their own bodies

            Feminism, even your interpretation of it apparently has not been that influential, maybe you should place blame somewhere else

      • expect_resistance

        That has to be one of the most over-used MRA lines ever. Please, that’s been used way too long. Learn something new.

  • P. McCoy

    Men’s rights in reproductive choices ends when they choose to expose and use their p****nes. Fellas, better think before you take aim and shoot. Otherwise it’s up to the woman she is burdened with the product so, I say shut the hell up.

    • hajile

      She is burdened for 9 MONTHS while he is burdened for 18-23 YEARS. If she says no, everything ends right there while if he says no, he winds up in PRISON.

      Explain the equality of that.

      • Unicorn Farm

        “She is burdened for 9 MONTHS while he is burdened for 18-23 YEARS”
        Don’t be an idiot. She has to pay, too.

        • HeilMary1

          She pays with her life, looks, health, ruined sex life, career, and housing.

      • HeilMary1

        Childbirth is the leading cause of death, divorce-causing disability and bankruptcy for women. Please explain how death, PERMANENT stinky bladder and bowel incontinence and face-rotting skin cancers caused by childbirth are picnics-in-the-park compared to men’s child support responsibilities. Please explain the “equality” of women being jailed for decades and even for life for “suspicious” MISCARRIAGES in Catholic-ruined Latin America. Please explain the “equality” of grisly symphysiotomies and Magdalene laundries in Ireland. Please explain the “equality” of Sandy Wilson’s $5 million infected c-section that repulsed her husband into divorcing her.

        http://www.foxnews.com/story/2010/08/09/flesh-eating-bacteria-devours-woman-inch-by-inch/

      • goatini

        Use a condom if you don’t intend to procreate. End of story.

        All sexually active persons, male and female, should be responsible for their own contraception. Would make things much easier for everyone.

      • lady_black

        She’s also burdened for 18-23 years. Unless you believe that upon receipt of the child support order, the baby becomes automatically self-sufficient. Dope.

        • P. McCoy

          I knew a divorced woman with two sons that she was struggling on one salary to pay mortgage, keep up house hold expenses as well as put the boys through Catholic School. She told me that her ex husband’s notion of adequate child support was to send his sons 3 pairs of slacks each once a year. Can You imagine.

          • HeilMary1

            Yup! But why did she send her sons to Catholic school? — I’ll bet the RCC ban on safe sex helped drive away her husband. The RCC doesn’t deserve any more of her money or access to her sons.

          • P. McCoy

            Well, she was Black, this was about 25 years ago, devout and from Boston – she never lost her accent, we never discussed the why, hell, her ex did not even provide provide money for winter clothes as her boys living in the San Francisco Bay Area needed when they graduated from said Catholic high school and she was paying for them to go to Georgetown. She told me she had saved her cash and would outfit them when they got back East as California winter gear was useless. She equally said she would never live in Boston again because of how much racism she endured at the hands of those infamous Boston Catholics. The same ones who terrorized innocent Black children in bussing and now are braying about their religious freedoms as are threatened by LGBT people visit a vis the Saint Patrick’s Day Parade. You know in rebellion, before I was even conscious, I started wearing Orange on March 17th. People called me on it; atffirst I simply put it to just wearing the most convenient blouse I had, now it’s a political statement against Roman attempts to turn our nation into a. Christian Taliban.

          • HeilMary1

            Your friend must have had a very good job because Georgetown is enormously expensive. Still, she and her sons deserved help from the ex. Irish Catholics have a real problem recognizing human rights. An ex-nun friend of mine discovered that sado-masochistic Jansenist heretics took over Catholicism in Ireland.

          • P. McCoy

            She was a surgical nurse and in the military. She was a cool lady, she wire her dreadlocks under a wig; she had a nice home too. They were not religious fanatics or anything, she just gave up on trying to get the ex to pay past support. By the time we had met, her eldest son was near 18, the younger 16. They were nice kids and respected their mom’s sacrifice. They didn’t expectnor had to much to do with said sperm doner.

          • HeilMary1

            Doesn’t the military automatically pay support for each child? Was her ex in the military also? A dumped friend was able to get military child support when she tracked down her embezzling runaway husband as a new military enlistee.

          • fiona64

            It’s not the military that pays, no. They do, however, automatically take an allotment from the paycheck of the service member who is directed to pay child support. My knowledge: primary. My ex-husband was on active duty, and an allotment went to his previous wife for child support. It was taken out of the first paycheck of the month, in full, and direct deposited to her account.

            A notable moment related to the story was when she called three days after she got her allotment to say she needed more money “for diapers” because she “spent the allotment on something else.” Argh.

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks! My friend said her absconding husband didn’t complain when she got an allotment and access to PXs. That gave me the impression he suffered no pay cut. Many years ago, I also heard each child received additional bonuses. Perhaps that was discontinued or I misunderstood?

          • fiona64

            You misunderstood. No worries; it is confusing.

          • P. McCoy

            Sorry, I didn’t think it was my place to ask. It seems to me that she was accepting that he was not going to be of any real help to her or her sons. They were good kids, loved school and had no run ins with the law. I suppose that for most Black mothers, that was a blessing in and of itself as well as they made it to young adulthood alive.

          • lady_black

            She should have put me on his tail. He would have paid.

          • P. McCoy

            LOL. She was not only very independent and self sufficient but a private person too. I only knew what she volunteered to tell me. I can say this, I knew her before MSNBC as well as the Internet and personal computers.

          • fiona64

            I hope this woman isn’t spending her one dollar per month of child support all in one place … http://www.nbc12.com/story/21416300/judge-orders-1-a-month-in-child-support

          • P. McCoy

            I don’t know how things were 25 years ago but as we went our own separate ways years ago I. Can only hope that her family is well.

          • lady_black

            Yeah? I would get some Judge Judy clone to explain things to deadbeat daddy, like a Dutch uncle. That’s how I roll.

          • MGTOW 4Ever

            Your anecdotal bs evidence is so convincing.. Yep all dads are dead beats. By that logic according to FBI – CDC stats women should stop being Child Abusers and Murders. At least my blanket statements can be backed by evidence can yours?

      • P. McCoy

        You’re forgetting that’s 9 months plus those 18 to 23 years. Most men don’t raise the children they sire in your circumstance. Dead beat Dad grumbles about having to fork over some money when he should have been getting far more familiar with his right hand. If he had done that there would be no issues of ” unfairness ”.

        • expect_resistance

          Great point! We’ll said!

          • P. McCoy

            Thanks, you know it.

        • PeterPan

          hold on, didn’t you – you- made the choice to sleep with him? did you made the choice to keep the child? and now somehow he is the dead bear dad and you just a victim? what poor choices obviously you had made.

      • fiona64

        She is burdened for 9 MONTHS

        Right, because women just hand off the kiddoes the minute they are born and never spend a single, solitary cent on them.

        ::rolling eyes::

        • expect_resistance

          That calls for a double eyeroll,

      • expect_resistance

        Doesn’t child support end at 18? Which states mandate child support until 23? You sound like you are full of cow cookies.

        • lady_black

          It ends at eighteen. That means support no longer accrues. If he’s in arrears, he pays until his arrears are paid up. Just ask me, I could tell you all about that.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks lady_black. :) Hope you don’t mind I used your “cow cookies” phrase. I just love it. It says bullshit in such a nice way.

          • MGTOW 4Ever

            Actually it doesn’t just end at 18. Cause men now or on the hook for Thug spawn education as well so it can be well into their 20′s.

            Also an under aged boy that was raped by a female can be sued by the same female for back child support.

            Wyminz you need to check #checkyourprivelege

          • lady_black

            I’m not too sure about that. Parents aren’t “on the hook” for a college education for ANY child. There is simply no law that says parents have to contribute a dime. There may be special cases where there was an agreement between the parties that needed to be litigated to force a few men to live up to the agreement they themselves made. But that isn’t generally applicable law, as a certain spoiled rotten young 18 year old woman who tried to sue her parents for support recently found out. If in your divorce agreement, you make promises to contribute to a child or children’s college education, and the child actually follows through, you DO have to make good on it. That’s a contract. Otherwise, there’s no legal basis for child support after 18 or graduation from high school, whichever comes later.

    • MGTOW 4Ever

      Right and men have so many Birth Control Methods.. Let me count the way..

      Alright Mangina.. You go and do some math between the ways women have options and men have options.

      Take you white knighting else where cause it ain’t getting you laid on teh iNT3RW3BS

  • Chris Moore

    The strawman MRA argument in the story is obviously a gigantic fail. The real issue is the argument for LPS. Is forced fatherhood fair and, even if one presumes it is not, can there ever be anything to alleviate it? There are many arguments for and against such a proposition (it is even controversial in MRA discussions) and all of them make good points.

    I have my own issues w/ the concept, but i do see it as a quest for gender equality. I can only hope male contraceptive choices will improve beyond condoms or sterilization. At that point, male reproductive rights will take a HUGE step forward.

    To the author of this piece: I am active in the MHRM and identify as a MRA, and I despise destructive, strawman representations of both feminists and MRAs. Perhaps we can find a middle ground.

    • expect_resistance

      MRAs are a gigantic FAIL. There is no middle ground when the MRAs are dishonest liars.

      • Chris Moore

        ALL MRAs are dishonest liars and ALL feminists are misandrists… yeah, yeah, I have heard all that before.

        • expect_resistance

          Bet you have.

  • rosie

    I wish we could all just get along…

    • HeilMary1

      That is the worst fear of the RCC/GOP.

    • expect_resistance

      MRAs claim gender equality but do the opposite and get off on fighting with us.

      • rosie

        I WANT gender equality. I really do. So much so that when I was pregnant (during college) I spoke with my partner and we weighed our options. I know a lot of women can’t do that…but I wish more could. Although he admitted the decision was ultimately up to me (because he couldn’t control my every step during the day) he felt he was respected as a person that I spoke to him before taking action.

  • CJ Anton

    I’m happy to see a young man blogging about women’s reproductive rights, but Marcus misstates the MRA position. They (in general) do not want to stop or force abortions. They think that men should not have to pay child support for their offspring. This position is execrable enough and deserves to be exposed and dismantled. There is no need to make stuff up.

    • lady_black

      They’re out of their flipping minds if they think that will EVER happen.

      • expect_resistance

        Yep.

    • expect_resistance

      No, he is spot on.

    • MGTOW 4Ever

      Funny Women can abort with out the consent of the father, Women can give up children for adoption with out the consent of the Father. Women “My Body my choice” or more like “My Body My Choice and your Wallet”

  • Dez

    Like I told my husband, “Don’t like abortion, then don’t have sex with me”. He has his rights without infringing on mine. Plus the fact he knows he can make complete decisions about his body and I either accept it or move out. Same goes for him. I love him, but I will drop him in a hot second if he thinks he can try this MRA crap on me. I don’t play that shit.

    • rosie

      Agreed.

      I had the same conversation with my fiancé. I like sex, don’t get me wrong. BUT not over the rights to my own body. Once we had a clear communication that consent to sex did not equate consent to be pregnant, he had to make a decision. Since we are still together…it’s clear what he chose ;)

      • MGTOW 4Ever

        Yeah he chose wrong. He settled for a Very Expensive Hooker IE You, when he could have simply gone to an Honest Woman AKA Prostitute and get him self serviced.

        • lady_black

          I think he made the right choice. A hooker seems to be just about your speed, and women don’t owe you sex, nor are they your chattel breeding property.

    • MGTOW 4Ever

      Well then your Husband is a Beta SIMP. I would in turn tell you well if you don’t want to get preggers use one of the bazzilion birth control methods you have available. Better yet I would say let me do it in your butt.
      But My ultimate answer.
      Don’t want to have sex with me then you don’t really care about me or our relation ship. Then I would tell you that if I have to tug it then I really don’t need an incompetent room mate and I can get some one better (maybe another men he will not give me sex but at least he is not going to nag me to death with vepid and boring female logic and feelingz). You then would find your self homeless in under 20 minutes sitting on the doorstep of my house.
      I feel no empathy for your SIMP of a Husband he deserves to be treated like crap by you and all other members of society because he is not a man he is a piece of disposable garbage and a pussy beggar. SIMP is as SIMP does. Another Delusional Blue Pill Mangina.

      • lady_black

        It sounds to me as though Rosie and her husband have a very good marriage. It sounds like they respect each other. Let’s get one thing straight, little boy. No woman “owes” you sex in any orifice of her body, least of all a female roommate. And if she’s your wife, it’s not just “your” house. You may well end up with it, but she’s entitled to a portion of any equity gained during the marriage, whether it’s in your name or not. You deserve the opportunity to get well acquainted with your right hand or a blow up doll. Human companionship is too good for you.

  • R0chambeau

    This debate is hilarious from the RHRC pro abort regulars.

    “I want bodily autonomy….I just don’t want to pay for it!!”

    • HeilMary1

      Women do pay for bodily autonomy! You forced birthers want them to die as punishment for sex and you want their kids to starve to death for men’s playboy freedoms!

    • lady_black

      Who said they don’t want to pay for it, troll? Other than yourself.

      • R0chambeau

        There are plenty of men in jail right now because they didn’t pay child support who might have something to say about your comment.

        • lady_black

          What does *child support* have to do with bodily autonomy? I don’t think that means what you THINK it means. By definition, women do not make children by themselves. Whether they give birth or not involves bodily autonomy. Child support has less than nothing to do with it. Once she gives birth or aborts, bodily autonomy is a fait accompli.

          • R0chambeau

            You’re correct, women do not make children by themselves so the decision to keep it or kill it should be both partners choice. Men should not be forced into parental responsibility (financial or otherwise) unwillingly by a woman if the man wants an abortion.

            You’re a forced birther.

          • goatini

            Au contraire – only forced birthers use the term “pro-abort”, forced birther.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep. Dead give-away.

          • expect_resistance

            No. Let’s stay on topic. From the article, “floating the idea that men somehow have a “right” to an abortion, or more accurately a right to interfere with a woman’s right to an abortion. MRAs argue that women’s autonomy is directly oppressive to men because men are disallowed input as to whether or not women should give birth. Thus, they argue that the state should intervene by forcing women to consult men before they can legally abort a pregnancy or that women or doctors should be held legally accountable to men after an abortion has taken place, usurping their right to self-determine.”

          • lady_black

            If a man “wants an abortion”, he damned well better be pregnant, because that’s a pre-requisite for obtaining one. And since he doesn’t own the body of a woman, he has no say in whatever medical care she seeks. And by the way, smart ass, nobody can decide to kill a child. That’s illegal. There is no child until I make one out of my blood and bones. An actual CHILD (not fetus) is entitled to support from both parents. Forget about your rights for just a second. What about the rights of that child?

        • expect_resistance

          Sure there are.

    • goatini

      “pro abort”

      I think we can surmise by this nasty little comment that MRA R0 wants to have his cake and eat it, too – the “right” to male ownership of females, and the “right” to “opt out” of the responsibilities of ownership.

      • expect_resistance

        Yes, men who want to “opt out” of their responsibilities are the first ones to whine about other people that they deem to be irresponsible. They have such double standards.

    • expect_resistance

      Nothing in comparison to MRA whiners.

    • expect_resistance

      Deadbeat dads.

    • lady_black

      You keep repeating this. It doesn’t mean what you think it means. Bodily autonomy only applies to pregnancy. It doesn’t apply to the rights of children to support from both parents. And once again, I ask you WHO SAYS we “just don’t want to pay for it?” Other than you. I’ve always paid for MY bodily autonomy, and so does every other woman. They aren’t providing abortions free of charge anywhere, and a man cannot be compelled to pay for one.

  • expect_resistance

    Thanks Marcus! Cheers to a well written article and a job well done! You know you’ve hit a nerve when you get an MRA troll attack.

  • MGTOW 4Ever

    Look up in the air is it a bird? Is it a plane? No its captain Save a Ho. White Knight and Magina Activist here to save the Ho that couldn’t keep her legs closed.

    • PeterPan

      and expect the man and the government to pay for her choices, whatever they are, its never her fault and definitely not their financial responsibility.

  • MGTOW 4Ever

    Funny Women can abort with out the consent of the father, Women can give
    up children for adoption with out the consent of the Father. Women “My
    Body my choice” or more like “My Body My Choice and your Wallet”

    What I find ironic in all this Mangina hypocracy, Women’s choice and its all about women control of Breeding.

    So let me start and ask Captain Save a Ho. Please list all the ways Women can control birth or prevent birth? Now Can you please Mangina Douche name the ways a Men can control Birth or prevent Birth?

    • PeterPan

      Exactly, its seems they are unable or unwilling to see simple reason it this.

    • lady_black

      Yes women can abort without the consent of the “father.” You do realize that we don’t need your permission to make decisions about our own medical care, right? Neither are you obligated to pay for an abortion, or child support for a fetus if she decides to carry to term. However you are dead wrong about adoption. An interested biological father can absolutely stop an adoption cold, because he has rights to his born child. He can take the child and raise it himself, and collect child support from the mother. Of course, since you men are so fond of making us “prove it’s yours”, you have to prove it’s yours too, if you want to exercise your paternal rights. Sauce for the gander and all that… Unlike when a woman wants support, identifying the mother is a piece of cake for you. No testing needed, because everyone knows who a child’s mother is. It’s a biological certainty. Both men and women can prevent pregnancy. And both should be doing their part, but realize that ALL methods of contraception have failure rates, even sterilization. If a pregnancy does occur, you have no right to 1) force a woman to abort, OR 2) force her not to abort. Why? You don’t own her like a pet or livestock. Child support is the right of the child. Neither parent can unilaterally void the right of a third party (the child) to be supported. The only option for doing that is mutual relinquishment of the child for adoption.

  • Greling Jackson

    So, if men have ZERO say in terms of matters of abortion, I guess it should therefore follow that they should also hold ZERO financial responsibility, that is, unless you truly believe that men and women should be treated equally.

    • MGTOW 4Ever

      Women don’t want equal treatment. Do you think any woman would want to be treated like a man? Seriously think about how you treat other man, you seriously believe that any woman wants to be treated like that?
      You know
      Reasonable
      Accountable
      Logical..
      Responsible

      As my favorite movie quote.

      Receptionist:
      How do you write women so well?

      Melvin Udall:
      I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

      • lady_black

        None of that is true. Not a word of it. But thanks for showing your ass on a public forum. I find open misogynists somewhat refreshing. At least you know exactly what you’re dealing with.

      • http://batman-news.com Mummel18000

        Being a man I am ashamed of reading crap like this.

    • lady_black

      It doesn’t work that way. Men have zero say over a pregnancy, because he’s not pregnant, and doesn’t own the woman’s body. Once there’s a child, that child is entitled to support from both parents. I’m sure even a dullard like yourself can tell the difference between a pregnancy and a born child. Here’s a few differences. Fetuses do not need to eat, nor do they wear clothing. They have no need of housing. They don’t need a bed to sleep in or toys to play with, nor does the custodial parent pay for daycare while she goes to work. Women and men can never be treated “equally” because they are not in similar positions in regard to pregnancy and birth. Once there is an actual child, they are again not treated “equally” but they are treated equitably. Look those terms up if you don’t understand the difference. Family law is gender-neutral. Both parents are expected to support their child. However, the Uniform Child Support Guidelines are *equitable*, not equal. The parent with the larger income and resources is going to contribute more to the support of the child, just as though the parties were together. I hope that straightens your confusion out.

      • Frosty2013

        For the sexes to be equal they need to have equal control over whether they become parents or not.

        Control over parental responsibility before sex:
        Women = Yes
        Men = Yes

        Control over future parental responsibility after conception
        Women = Yes
        Men = No

        Please explain to me how this is equal.

        • samslaw

          When you’re reduced to making arguments using equal signs and “Yes” or “No”, you’ve already made yourself irrelevant.

          “For the sexes to be equal…”

          Nope. Already showing that you can’t comprehend the post above. She specifically stated that it involves notions of equity, which you either don’t know the definition of, or choose to be willfully ignorant.

          Either way, you lose.

  • Dan Francis

    Sorry, Honey, but unless or until you can carry a fetus to term and/or find yourself at risk of dying from doing this….no. Sorry, Bro. Women are not your property, despite what your Bronze Age fairy tale says, so no, you cannot have a say in how a woman cares for her body.

  • lady_black

    Other than adoption, one cannot “opt out of parental responsibility” (which has nothing to do with a pregnancy.) There IS no parental obligation to a fetus on the part of either “parent” because there is no child with a right to support. You are what my grandmother would have called a “simple soul.” Obtuse through ignorance, or willfully I’m not sure. I’m only sure that you are obtuse.

    • PeterPan

      it seems that imbecile gene is predominant in you make up. If woman chooses to keep pregnancy and a child as a result then it is clear her choice, hance should be her responsibility. If we talking about the right of a child, than no woman should have child without the absolute support and commitment form the father. The child have right to both parents, which otherwise the mother will denied it. Just in case you missed it, people have sex for fun, not to have children every time. If pregnancy results than both ppl should agree not just one. If they don’t agree then other parent shouldn’t be penalties financially for it.

      • lady_black

        Women do NOT need men’s permission to give birth, and men cannot unilaterally void the right of his child to support. The law is NOT on your side, and no amount of whining on your part will ever change that. You have no say about what to do about a pregnancy for one simple fact: YOU AREN’T PREGNANT. Of course people have sex for fun, and neither men nor women want a pregnancy every time they have sex, and that is never going to happen whether they want it or not. It would be nice if people always agreed. It’s not going to happen. You are not always going to get things your way. But you WILL support that child.

        • PeterPan

          once there was law forbidding woman and man who didn’t own land from voting, yet the laws had changed. I have hope that this laws will change as well. Woman shouldn’t have the right to bring a child to single parent home, as this child have RIGHT to both parents and RIGHT to be supported by both. If one of the condition is not met the willing woman should be responsible financially of that child needs(not government not the man or neighbour!) – it was her selfish decision and consequences should fallow not financial rewards. Possibly than we will see drop of false paternal accusations and unemployed moms with many children living in hosing commission.

          • lady_black

            Since child support is the right of the child who had no say in the matter, these laws will never change. A child has no specific “right” to both parents. A child has the right to be supported by both parents. No man can be forced to parent, nor would it be good if they were. No woman can be forced to parent either, for that matter. But they can damn sure be forced to make financial contributions, and that’s all well and good with me. How dare you call women selfish? Go gestate and give birth yourself, since you believe it’s such a cushy arrangement. Why any woman would willingly birth your seed and perpetuate the shallow end of the gene pool is beyond me, but then again, human stupidity is limitless.

          • PeterPan

            and you showing you bright genes again!
            “never say never”! look up child has a right to both parent – I can’t believe I have to say this to you! child has a right to both parents and the laws are changing, did you hear about “share parenting” its already here. Why woman entrap man with false parenting, why woman lay about rape? Even in this article and you own comments see how selfish woman are! I am surprised… you are surprised that woman can and are indeed selfish. Many woman get pregnant as the clock is ticking for the own reasons – again I can’t believe you don’t know that. I guess, honesty is not on yours site too. I stop here and wishing you all the best, you are very very special.

  • lady_black

    No way, Jose. Women are not opting out of parental responsibility when they abort. They are opting out of pregnancy. At that point, there are no parental responsibilities. There is no child. She cannot give a child up for adoption without the consent of the other biological parent (unless he’s dead.) And yes women DO have to pay for abortions. They aren’t free. Men aren’t “financial slaves” any more than women are. Or do you think the taxpayer should support your child? That idea isn’t likely to catch on. Women cannot financially “opt out” of supporting their actual born children, and neither can men. The only way to do that is for both to mutually relinquish a child for adoption. You are just not being honest.

    • PeterPan

      did you hear of National Abortion Federation in the US, in UK is free, in AU is free. Abstract “There is funding available – either through donations to clinics or low (or no) interest loans for a clinical abortion. Going to a clinic is safer and more effective than attempting self-induced abortion. For funding information in the USA: removed-web-link ”
      Don’t forget the day after pill, it doesn’t have to get to pregnancy stage but it requires the woman to take the pill – which shouldn’t be that hard really.
      If the man doesn’t see the child and is forced to support it without having any custody of that child then I can’t find batter wards to describe it; he is walking ATM for the mother or financial slave. As if in the event of not coming up with the $$ he might be sent to jail in US and in other countries CSA (child support agency) can sale his all possessions. I don’t believe anyone should support that child but the willing mother – her choice, remember, hers responsibility. Look its simple, we all make decisions, if she makes wrong decision with sleeping with guy who don’t want child than why force him? after all it was her decision to sleep with him. Even when she gets pregnant and she sees he is not willing she has many options available. If this wouldn’t be the case I would agree with the article and comments but there are options available to her and the choices woman make will impact children and man for life! I don’t believe this decision should be made by one parent alone and any financial support will encourage more woman to this selfish, short sited and harmful behaviour!

  • Frosty2013

    This is a complete mis-representation of the MRM and what it stands for, it’s a typical straw man attack.

    MRAs are not pushing for rights to control womens bodies, or return to a patriarchal society, maybe if you believe this you should at least cite some sources. MRA acknowledge the fact that women have parental autonomy because they can decide to opt of being a parent by having an abortion. Men do not have that right and so there is no equality between the sexes in this regard.

    MRAs are asking for the rights for fathers to gain equal rights as women by allowing them to have parental autonomy and be allowed to sign away legal rights their child including all parental responsibilities, including child support. If feminists truly support equality then they’d support the plight of men to be allowed the parental rights as women.

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