Who’s to Blame When a Woman Experiences Abortion Regret?


Anti-choicers would like you to believe they are very concerned about abortion regret. Conservative websites fill up with tales of woe from women who claim they would like to take an abortion they had back, even though they often don’t consider that doing so would mean they’d have to give up the life path that led to their current happy circumstances—husband, children, and so on. The implication is that abortion regret is so terrible that if only a few women regret their abortions, abortion itself must be banned. This logic is not carried over to other decisions that are far more frequently regretted than abortion. For instance, a far higher percentage of people who marry will regret that decision—as any divorce statistic will confirm—and yet somehow the “we must ban every decision a person could possibly regret” logic doesn’t get invoked when it comes to marriage.

Iowa is now considering a bill that would allow abortion patients to sue a doctor for abortion regret, even if they received counseling and signed informed consent forms prior to the abortion. The bill gives women a ten-year window to come to the conclusion that they regret their abortion and to sue. Since none of us really knows where we’ll be in ten years, this opens abortion providers up to all sorts of unfair lawsuits, since there’s no way to know that the 21-year-old women’s studies major with a pro-choice button on her bag getting an abortion today is going to get married and join a fundamentalist church and decide she must produce “abortion regret” in penance before she’s 30.

More to the point, the bill shows how cynical and insincere anti-choicers are when they pretend to care about women experiencing abortion regret. If they actually cared about women who are suffering from abortion regret, they wouldn’t blame the doctor. They would blame the people who actually caused the regret. For instance, you would be able to sue a partner or parent who shamed you, or your church for telling you that your past behavior was sinful, or your local anti-choice organization for provoking these feelings of shame and regret. That makes a whole lot more sense that blaming the doctor.

If you read the abortion regret stories that proliferate in anti-choice circles, what comes across loud and clear is that the feelings of regret owe far more to the pressure from churches and right-wing organizations and other people in the community who shame women than to doctors—who in many cases were the only people who were generous and non-shaming to the women.

Many of the stories on the Silent No More website drive home who is really causing all this abortion regret.

Here’s Susan:

My oldest sister became pregnant at 16 and married her boyfriend; the marriage was in shambles by the time I also became pregnant at 16. So, I was afraid I would suffer the same fate and wanted an abortion, which had not been an option for her 6 years prior.

And then:

Finally, in 1996, I had a successful pregnancy. I gave birth to a son and decided to raise him in the Catholic Church. The more the years went by, the more Catholic and Christian I became in an effort to help him find Christ.

He is very pro-life, and I have encouraged that. My husband has converted to Catholicism also.

Now that I have studied the Christian faith, I have a complete understanding of the horrible sins I committed in the past.

She seemed to experience little to no regret until years of being a Catholic and constantly hearing about the evils of abortion provoked such feelings. This case seems to be on the church.

And here’s Erin, who got an abortion in college and claims she “didn’t think about it” much, until:

I remarried a man who was a devout Christian and who invested his time and energy into bringing me to Christ. Before we got married we both knew we wanted to have children and wanted a family.  I told him that God might not allow me to have children because of what I had done and that I didn’t deserve children.  My husband was so supportive, and we talked a lot about my abortion and what I was feeling.  We still talk about it to this day. I was a stubborn, selfish, prideful woman. It took about two years for my heart to change and for me to realize that the only way for me to be forgiven for all the horrible things I had done was to accept Jesus’ grace and forgiveness.

Abortion regret, brought to you by your new husband and his distaste for “stubborn” and “prideful” women.

Then there’s Diana, who does not report feeling regret for her abortions as a teenager until after her third marriage fell apart:

I was in counseling, going through my 3rd divorce, trying to understand why my relationships ended badly.  One day the counselor and I were discussing the little white crosses that the local churches would move from church to church to remember aborted babies.  I told him how they made me angry.  He asked why, and I couldn’t tell him.  He gave me a crisis pregnancy center card that had a post-abortive ministry.  I thought he was crazy.  What did my abortions have to do with my 3rd divorce?

She doesn’t have much cause to sue the doctor, but she might have cause to sue her counselor for telling her that abortion causes mental illness, a claim that the American Psychological Association disputes.

Kathleen, who by her own measure was a “child of the sexual revolution,” didn’t seem overly concerned about abortion. But:

Finally the faithful prayers of my mother brought me to healing. Twenty five years later, I got to a Rachel’s Vineyard Retreat.  The weekend gave voice to my grief and suffering and I understood God’s love.  It saved my life and it changed my life.  We know abortion from the inside out….we know abortion hurts women.

Her doctor would be protected under this law, since it took Kathleen 25 years and a whole bunch of pressure to come to the conclusion that she regrets her abortion. But a broader law under which you could sue the people who actually caused your feelings of regret would allow her to sue her mother and Rachel’s Vineyard for convincing her that all her problems were due to an abortion she had more than two decades prior.

Those are just a sampling of the stories at Silent No More. I have no doubt that these women really are suffering from shame and guilt. But that is because some of the people in their lives—husbands, parents, counselors, church leaders—have shamed and guilt-tripped them, not because of some doctor long ago who provided the help they asked for at the time.

If Iowa legislators are really concerned about the suffering that stems from shame over abortion, why not make it easier to sue the people doing the shaming?

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  • ldwendy

    Interesting observations, Amanda.

    “If Iowa legislators are really concerned about the suffering that stems
    from shame over abortion, why not make it easier to sue the people doing
    the shaming?”

    I doubt that the Iowa legislature going to start encouraging that individuals start suing churches and other men and women of faith for shaming them and guilt-tripping them. Remember, religious piety in this country also deal with issues of repentance and forgiveness as well as guilt and shame. Many of the women on the Silent No More site created post-abortion retreat like Rachel’s Vineyard to help them cope with abortion regret.

    • HeilMary1

      Do the victims of Rachel’s Vineyard know that the godfather of those shaming retreats is convicted pedophile priest / ousted Notre Dame provost “Father” James T. Burtchaell who demonized the “selfishness” of contraception while he assaulted the neglected sons of Catholic “sl*ts”?

      http://www . amazon . com/Rachel-Weeping-Case-Against-Abortion/dp/0060612517

      • Ella Warnock

        Sadly, I don’t think it would matter if they did. “Abortion regret” is a fetish that imbues its peddlers with a great deal of power over their victims.

        • Shan

          If I understand the term, it seems like concern tolling in the extreme, but in real life rather than online. “Oh, you had an abortion? Come, tell me all about it, you poor dear, so I can make you feel like an absolute monster.”

          • lady_black

            It is absolutely concern trolling. The goal of real life counseling is to help the patient move to acceptance, not to make them feel terrible.

          • ldwendy

            Can I steal this quote? I like it.

            It could also be said that the “sidewalk counselor” (whether they have a counseling degree or not) help the pregnant mother move to acceptance of the fetus in her womb. /*sarcasm/

          • lady_black

            Sure you can use the quote. A woman’s presence at an abortion clinic indicates that she has accepted the reality that she is pregnant, by definition. If she didn’t accept that she had a fetus in her womb, she wouldn’t be there. Thus, the sidewalk “counselors” are there only to make her feel bad about the decision she has made. They give actual counselors a bad name. A real counselor will also refrain from dictating to the client. He/she will ask the right open-ended questions to allow the client to reach his/her own conclusion. He/she will provide potential coping strategies. The counselor isn’t there to tell you what to do. The counselor is there to help you decide what to do on your own.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, yeah. All of what they do is out of their overweening “concern” for abortion “victims.” Concern that is manipulative in the extreme.

          • L-dan

            It reminds me of an acquaintance I dealt with just after my abortion. I was pretty open about it, but feeling kind of physically crappy for a few days, so I mentioned that as part of standard ‘how ya doing?’ when chatting online. They quickly went into ‘consoling someone who must feel horrible mentally’ mode which felt rather horribly awkward because I was just fine in that regard. But they just assumed I’d feel shameful, depressed, etc.

            I was all “no really, that’s fine, my innards are just feeling sort of annoyed.” And they got defensive and weird because they were stymied in their need to offer support.

            It was the gentler version of “poor dear, can I make you feel like a monster,” in that they didn’t really feel the need to do the latter. But they did feel like they were somehow put upon by my not needing them and their form of support. It was all rather disconcerting.

        • Mirable

          And it is the excuse they use to paint pro choicers as misogynists. Whereas they want to help women by forcing them to remain pregnant cus that’s what every woman secretly wants.

  • Justice Reports

    Why not have all elective medical procedures be subject to regret lawsuits? Why discriminate?

    I’m sure the cosmetic surgery industry would be flooded with litigation.

    • HeilMary1

      Would you count bullied childbirths and predicted birth defects as elective?

      • five_by_five

        Because most abortions aren’t done for birth defects genius. Hence “elective.”

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You are still using the word ELECTIVE incorrectly.

          • five_by_five

            elective abortion
            Type: Term

            Definitions:

            1. an abortion without medical justification but done in a legal way, as in the United States.

            http://www . medilexicon . com/medicaldictionary . php?t=147

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            There are two kinds of abortion: spontaneous and induced.
            There are two kinds of surgery: emergency and elective.
            Your link is BS and I am tired of having to explain this to you.

          • five_by_five

            And there are two subtypes of induced abortions: therapeutic and elective.

            My link is BS? Why? Because the medical terminology doesn’t agree with you?

            Ha ha ha ha ha ha

            Here, like another?

            “Therapeutic medical abortion is done because the woman has a health condition.

            Elective abortion is done because a woman chooses (elects) to end the pregnancy.”

            http://www . nlm . nih . gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007382 . htm

            But, but but medlineplus is an obvious pro-life group, right?

          • HeilMary1

            Do you think avoiding obstetric bladder and bowel incontinence is “elective selfish convenience”?

          • Dana

            Five is right, but “elective” doesn’t mean “unnecessary” and shouldn’t be taken as a negative except maybe by anti-choicers. If someone’s not about to die if they don’t get the surgery, under most circumstances it’s considered elective.

            Another phrase we might use is “induced abortion”–miscarriages are abortions too, but no doctor makes them happen.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are full of bovine excrement.

        • HeilMary1

          ALL abortions are done for maternal health, if not for birth defects, jackass.

          • five_by_five

            Nope, sometimes they are done simply because mommy doesn’t want the inconvenience of having a baby – with zero indication that there will be any maternal health problem whatsoever.

          • ansuz

            Pregnancy is always dangerous. Pregnancies that look fine can turn deadly with little warning, and pregnancy always involves the suppression of the carrier’s immune system, which is obviously dangerous.

          • five_by_five

            If pregnancy is so undesirable and dangerous, then why aren’t these women rushing to go get their tubes tied?

            I mean, obviously if it is as dangerous as you claim, we should be doing something about this horror that is known as pregnancy.

          • ansuz

            Tube tying isn’t done on young people, or people who don’t have kids (and, yes, people are fighting to change this. I, personally, want the majority of my reproductive system removed). You know what sorts of things are common, though? Contraception. Abortion. Spending lots of money and seeing many doctors to ensure good maternal and neonatal outcomes.

          • Dana

            Don’t be so fired up to get your uterus removed. If you got the tubes dealt with you’d be fine. Too many women get a hysterectomy when they didn’t need one and then they have problems with prolapse and fallen bladder and all sorts of unpleasant stuff.

          • ansuz

            Oh, I know the health risks. My case is unusual because I’m genderqueer and have shitloads of body issues, and the uterus-bleeding gives me crying, vomiting panic attacks every month. I want it gone, but I don’t know if Id go ahead with it.

          • L-dan

            Plus, getting your tubes tied is still abdominal surgery, with the risks that entails.

            For those who are even able to access this option affordably, the option of managing pregnancy risk via contraception with abortion as their backup plan often looks like the better risk.

          • Arekushieru

            Also, it is surgery that should be VOLUNTARY. Denying people their right to medical privacy on the sole basis of their presenting sex just because you can’t deny them their right to bodily autonomy based on their presenting sex is disingenuous at BEST.

          • Mirable

            Actually, due to the risks involved, pregnancy is not something that should be taken on involuntarily.

          • Shan

            “pregnancy is not something that should be taken on involuntarily.”

            Exactly. Sometimes, I don’t know why women do it more than once, ever. I did because mine were EASY or I would have stopped with just the one.

          • Ella Warnock

            I would have loved being able to get a tubal ligation on demand, instead of being put off for six years after I married because I would surely “change my mind.” I didn’t. I was being protected from *possible* regret, you see.

          • HeilMary1

            Most women are rushing to get sterilized AFTER they’ve had one or more desired kids, but you antis are making sterilizations extremely expensive and difficult to qualify for. A perfect example is the infamous Catholic Phoenix mother forced by the RCC to rely on NFP only, even though her last pregnancy nearly killed her. Of course, NFP made her pregnant AGAIN and pedophile priest protector Bishop Olmsted excommunicated the hospital nun who allowed the life-saving early delivery of her non-viable fetus. I’ll bet that mother STILL isn’t sterilized.

          • Dana

            If it’s a Catholic hospital, they won’t let you get your tubes tied at all, Catholic or not. And there are a LOT of Catholic hospitals.

          • expect_resistance

            Duh, many women do get their tubes tied. Any more stupid assumptions?

          • fiona64

            Because, dummy, not everyone knows in advance that their pregnancy can or will go wrong.

            My source: primary.

            Every pregnancy, including relatively uncomplicated ones, causes *permanent physiological changes* to a woman’s body. Every. Single. One. Your blithe dismissal of pregnancy and what it does to a woman’s body further reveals you as an undereducated male.

            Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness.

          • Mirable

            I tried to explain that to a woman this morning, who told me that I was wrong, because she’s been pregnant 7 times and gave birth 5, and that every single pregnancy was healthy and did not permanently affect her body in any way – and that because of this, pregnancy is ,in fact, risk free and healthy – she is PROOF of it.

            She seems to think that ‘risk’ does not exist, if, in hindsight, one does not in fact encounter the aforementioned ‘risk’.

          • Ella Warnock

            If pregnancy doesn’t permanently affect the body, why is it that the skeleton of a woman who has given birth present with circular or linear grooves on the inside of the pubic bones?

            The hard bones of the skeleton are marked, but the rest of the body escapes completely unscathed in any way? Comparing her anatomy and mine, for example, would clearly indicate which one of us has given birth and which of us hasn’t.

          • Mirable

            If you don’t ‘feel’ it, then doh, you have not in fact suffered any harm!

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, I thought they had science on their side. But it’s feeewings. Okay. I can’t keep up with all the new philosophies of the week.

          • L-dan

            Yep. Pregnancy affects us strongly enough to find the signs in ancient fossils. That’s some powerful stuff.

          • fiona64

            It’s not just from giving birth; pregnancy itself causes the striations as the pubic symphysis expands. I was able to point at the x-ray of a mummy at a museum where I used to volunteer and demonstrate that the woman (who died at the age of 28) had been pregnant 7 times. What probably killed her was a dental abscess (there was a hole in her jawbone), which was fairly common because sand got into every damn thing in Egypt (but I digress).

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            As does Puberty. Best to stop it!

          • ansuz

            …you do know that we actually do stop puberty in cases where it seems like the individual would have a negative reaction to it?

            See: puberty blockers and transgender youth.

          • VonRecklingHause

            “Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness.”

            Please Please Please stop this. Pregnancy is a great thing for those that choose it. Yes, there are risks. There are also risks for aborting, albeit far less in terms of death rate …if that is what is important to you.

            I’m not sure what your intention is. Is it to scare people away from pregnancy?

          • Mirable

            Having a baby is a great thing for those who want it. Pregnancy, in and of itself, is NOT inherently a ‘great thing’. It is something that is tolerated so people can have kids.

          • L-dan

            Seriously, I know very few people who have children and are like “I love being pregnant, it’s great and fantastic. I’d do it all the time, if I could.” They exist, but they are not remotely the majority.

          • Mirable

            The only people who love it are those who get high off the hornones and the attention. I know a woman who had neglected her kids from day one – but she loved being pregnant because she loves the attention. But she neglects her kids because she would rather party and spend 10k on offroad vehicles.

          • L-dan

            I’ve known one who really enjoys it. Glows and all that. But even she will admit that there are rough days and uncomfortable patches. Nor does she deny that it takes a toll on the body.

          • Mirable

            Do you think it’s possible to have given birth 5 times and never once suffered any deleterious side effects?

          • L-dan

            *wobbles hand* I’m hesitant to say it would *never* happen. Billions of people offers a lot of space for statistical edge cases.

            Some people just plain have an easier time with pregnancy, period. Add in good supportive care before, during, and after…and you can probably find a few.

            But no, I wouldn’t think it’s common. Like I said, I know 1 out of dozens of women with children who’s all ‘yay pregnancy’ vs. ‘yay starting the grueling work of building my future child.’

          • Mirable

            However, it would be wrong to say that these perfect pregnancies were ” risk free” right? Its only possible to say, with the benefit of hindsight, that the entire pregnancy and birth was risk free and healthy. Which means, it was never risk free – just that the person got lucky.

          • L-dan

            *nod* That’s like claiming a shuttle mission was risk free because it landed safely.

          • Mirable

            Exactly. The woman who made this argument was commended for her logic skills by one of the site bloggers. I was told that I fail at logic for making a point similar to yours. They also schooled me on the naturalistic fallacy – apparently it is not fallacious to say that pregnancy is a state of wellness because it is a natural part of the human life cycle.

            I have been talking peoples heads off about this today because I honestly cannot decide if the people making these arguments are intellectually dishonest or just plain dumb.

          • L-dan

            Their schooling on the naturalistic fallacy is pretty much the complete opposite. They’re pretending pregnancy is hunky dory because it’s ‘natural’. Saying something is not a state of wellness does not make it unnatural.

            Malaria is natural…it’s evolved along with us for a good long while.

            Or, just looking at the life cycle, decline in old age is ‘natural’ but much of it is not a state of wellness. The wear and tear upon my joints as a dancer, or in old age, is natural, and not a state of wellness. Etc.

            Stupid direction to take that argument by folks who have read the definition on wikipedia.

          • Mirable

            To debate them is to enter bizzarro world. I have been avoiding abortion debates lately because they take up too much time – but this totally blindsided me today.

          • L-dan

            Yeah, I wax and wane depending on how much other things are eating into my time. I expect to hit a ‘falling off much of the internet’ phase for a few months soon as I look at the things rolling in. I pretty much never have the spoons to go read or argue at their sites.

          • Mirable

            It can feel like a job at times + the same arguments are just recycled over and over by both sides with minor differences in semantics.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Decline and death is a natural part of the human life cycle too, but I very much doubt that it’s a state of wellness. These people are strange.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Even the easiest pregnancy has risks.

          • Mirable

            And don’t you think that people should know what those risks are? Or do you believe that they should be hoodwinked into thinking that pregnancy and birth are all unicorns, kittehs, and unicorn rainbow kittehs?

            Pro-choice my ass.

          • Ella Warnock

            Women who don’t buy that pregnancy and birth are unicorns, kittehs, and unicorn rainbow kittehs (heh) should KEEP THEIR LEGS CLOSED cuz teh dirty sex is an unalloyed BAYBEE INVITATION, engraved and everything!

          • Mirable
          • Ella Warnock

            Yes, pregnancy is not that. ;->

          • ansuz

            I want to hug that cat.

          • Mirable

            GIMMEH ALL THE UPVOTES

          • expect_resistance

            Oh yeah. I love that there are so many “cat people” here. :)

          • Dana

            But men don’t have to keep it in their pants because POTENCY! (still laughing at Sarah Palin, don’t mind me) One wonders who in the world they’re supposed to screw if every woman of reproductive age followed right-wing advice. Pregnant women and post-menopausal women, I guess.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, pro-lfers go nuts when I point out that pro-life men actually do need to keep it in their pants unless they’re sure that their sex partner will carry an unplanned pregnancy to term. It’s pretty offensive, I guess, to suggest that the only way for a *man* to be sure he won’t ever be a party to abortion is to – as they always insist a woman should be if she absolutely wants to avoid pregnancy – be abstinent.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            They do go nuts? How queer, which would be an option too.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hilarious video about childbirth by Victoria Wood : http://www . youtube. com/watch?v=Qwkpba2zOV4

          • Mirable
          • fiona64

            Stop telling the truth? Really? Is that what you want me to do?

            Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness. Mine almost killed me and, as previously stated, even relatively uncomplicated pregnancies cause permanent changes to a woman’s body (striations on the bones of the pubic symphysis, among other things). Abortion is 14 times safer than gestation and delivery. Source: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2012/01/23/abortion-safer-for-women-than-childbirth-study-claims

            And women die *every day* of pregnancy related complications — yes, even in the US, which is #50 in the world for maternal mortality — and getting worse. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/maternal-mortality-rate-infographic_n_1827427.html

            My intention is to tell the truth. If one chooses to become and remain pregnant, there are attendant risks. Period.

          • VonRecklingHause

            Having your wisdom teeth taken out has risks.

            Having you appendix out has risks.

            Taking birth control has risks.

            Abortion has risks.

            Yes, we get it. Sometimes pregnancy has risks. Stop acting like pregnancy is a disease. I’m pro-choice. That means I support my friends who have decided to keep their babies. And that means I support those that choose to abort.

          • ansuz

            I don’t think there’s anyone here who doesn’t support those who choose to be pregnant (except in the case of severe fetal anomaly like anencephaly EDIT: I can’t in good conscience support the decision to give birth to a fetus if you know that it’s just going to have a short, painful life). The problem is that pro-lifers (and society as a whole) put a lot of energy into minimizing the risk, and talk a lot about how pregnancy is great for everyone and just a minor inconvenience. This is blatantly untrue, and a dangerous lie to be spreading. Every individual should be able to decide exactly how much risk they’re willing to accept, but they can’t do that if they don’t know what the risks are.

            (Surely you’ve noticed the naturalistic fallacy all over pro-life posts? Pregnancy is natural and great and healthy and everyone should love it?)

          • fiona64

            Stop acting like pregnancy is a disease.

            I said it is not a state of wellness. That is NOT synonymous with pregnancy being a disease. Learn to read for comprehension. Gah. My pregnancy almost killed me. Should I keep silent about the realities of pregnancy in order to satisfy you?

            Okay … here you go: Pregnancy is always chocolate ice cream and fairy farts. 100 percent of the time.

            Gah. Is anyone so stupid as to believe such nonsense?

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Sometimes pregnancy has risks.”
            No. Pregnancy *always* has risks. *Sometimes* they materialize.

          • five_by_five

            http://www . youtube . com/watch?v=pjvQFtlNQ-M

          • ansuz

            I’m still waiting for an answer to my question:

            Are you saying that I have no right to label something that’s in my body when I don’t want it to be an ‘alien invader’, or are you saying that regardless of how I feel about it, having sex means I have to allow the zef to use my body?

          • King Rat

            Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, according to the Supreme Court of Canada

            http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/supreme-court-rules-man-sabotaged-condom-guilty-aggravated-165012550.html

            (showing you because it is relevant to the question)

          • ansuz

            Argh, damnit, I can’t post kitty pics here (and expect them to show up).

            But still:
            FUCK YEAH.

          • King Rat
          • ansuz

            Hello, I have a new favourite cat.

          • Arekushieru

            Okay, is this just a problem with using Mozilla as a browser on RH Reality Check or is it a problem solely of the site itself: I accidentally clicked a button and my browser navigated AWAY from this page. I prevented it from doing so, yet, as a result, I was unable to continue typing my post in the comment field, as a result of THAT, I had to refresh and lost the whole post. It was ANNOYING, to say the LEAST.

            Anyways, as a response to the link you provided, above: Now, if only Julian Assange’s victims could get a fair trial in Sweden just as THIS man’s victim did, in my own country.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Are you saying I have no rights to label a child who wanders into my home an ‘alien invader’ as an excuse to kill him or her?

          • King Rat

            If it insinuates itself into your body, assaults you, and starts using your body as life support, then you would be within your rights to kill it if that is the only way you can escape, yes.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Insinuates? Adorable! in·sin·u·ate
            inˈsinyəˌwāt/
            verb
            2.
            maneuver oneself into (a position of favor or office) by subtle manipulation.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You foolishly imply that the unborn human was cognizant prior to conception. You kill and you have no idea who you kill. How cam some”thing” that is created by the body, in response to an action initiated my the body, insinuate itself into that body when that body is the origin? You kill and use excuses to justify the death! (The stork doesn’t bring them and implant them no matter what your mamma told you)

          • King Rat

            Mindless biology. And we are not slaves to biology, cupcake.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            We are not slaves to biology> Are you really that stupid?

          • King Rat

            So you have never been to a doctor?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And you draw conclusions that are based on your illegal drug usage!

          • King Rat

            Have you ever been to a doctor? Yes or no?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            I have been to a doctor! have you ever been ripped limb from limb and tossed in a trash bin? yes or no?

          • King Rat

            Why would you go to a doctor if humans are slaves to biology?

            Medicine overrides biology you know.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Idiot, we go to doctors to secure health an life. If you disagree you are an idiot! When someone aborts they kill a living human. if you disagree you are stupid. Bottom line: you are stupid and you kill!

          • King Rat

            Pregnancy maims and kills you ignorant schmuck.

            Pregnancy and health:

            “That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory
            distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.”

            Data modeling suggesting 21/100,000 US maternal mortality rate

            In 2004/2005, 1.7 million women per year suffered adverse health effects

            http://search.worldbank.org/data?qterm=us%20maternal%20mortality%20rate&language=EN

            http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/campaigns/demand-dignity/maternal-health-is-a-human-right/maternal-health-in-the-us

            http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

            http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/opera-singer-suing-hospital-episiotomy-left-her-severe-162302400.html

            childbirth (stats for U.S.):

            Postpartum depression: 5 to 25%
            PTSD from childbirth: 5.9%
            Miscarriages: 11 to 22% (related: ectopic pregnancies and early pregnancy hemorrhages)
            Maternal mortality in the U.S: 24 per 100,000 live births
            Stillbirths: 1 in 160
            Pre-eclampsis: 6-8%
            Post-partum hemorrhage: 13%

            Pregnancy worsens lupus, thyroid disease, and diabetes.

            Normal, frequent
            or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness
            common from first weeks)

            altered appetite
            and senses of taste and smell

            nausea and vomiting
            (50% of women, first trimester)

            heartburn and indigestion

            constipation

            weight gain

            dizziness and light-headedness

            bloating, swelling,
            fluid retention

            hemmorhoids

            abdominal cramps

            yeast infections

            congested, bloody
            nose

            acne and mild skin
            disorders

            skin discoloration
            (chloasma, face and abdomen)

            mild to severe backache
            and strain

            increased headaches

            difficulty sleeping,
            and discomfort while sleeping

            increased urination
            and incontinence

            bleeding gums

            pica

            breast pain and
            discharge

            swelling of joints,
            leg cramps, joint pain

            difficulty sitting,
            standing in later pregnancy

            inability to take
            regular medications

            shortness of breath

            higher blood pressure

            hair loss

            tendency to anemia

            curtailment of ability
            to participate in some sports and activities

            infection
            including from serious and potentially fatal disease

            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
            non-pregnant women, and
            are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

            extreme pain on
            delivery

            hormonal mood changes,
            including normal post-partum depression

            continued post-partum
            exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
            – major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
            fully recover)

            Normal, expectable,
            or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse
            in younger women)

            loose skin

            permanent weight
            gain or redistribution

            abdominal and vaginal
            muscle weakness

            pelvic floor disorder
            (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
            and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
            incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
            the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

            changes to breasts

            varicose veins

            scarring from episiotomy
            or c-section

            other permanent
            aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
            by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

            increased proclivity
            for hemmorhoids

            loss of dental and
            bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

            newer research indicates
            microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
            mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications
            and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy

            spousal/partner
            abuse

            hyperemesis gravidarum

            temporary and permanent
            injury to back

            severe
            scarring
            requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)

            dropped (prolapsed)
            uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
            pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
            and enterocele)

            pre-eclampsia
            (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
            with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

            eclampsia (convulsions,
            coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

            gestational diabetes

            placenta previa

            anemia (which
            can be life-threatening)

            thrombocytopenic
            purpura

            severe cramping

            embolism
            (blood clots)

            medical disability
            requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
            many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
            or baby)

            diastasis recti,
            also torn abdominal muscles

            mitral valve stenosis
            (most common cardiac complication)

            serious infection
            and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

            hormonal imbalance

            ectopic pregnancy
            (risk of death)

            broken bones (ribcage,
            “tail bone”)

            hemorrhage
            and

            numerous other complications
            of delivery

            refractory gastroesophageal
            reflux disease

            aggravation of pre-pregnancy
            diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
            of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
            prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

            severe post-partum
            depression and psychosis

            research now indicates
            a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
            including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

            research also now
            indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
            in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

            research also indicates
            a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
            and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but
            serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy

            cardiopulmonary
            arrest

            magnesium toxicity

            severe hypoxemia/acidosis

            massive embolism

            increased intracranial
            pressure, brainstem infarction

            molar pregnancy,
            gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced
            cancer)

            malignant arrhythmia

            circulatory collapse

            placental abruption

            obstetric fistula

            More
            permanent side effects:

            future infertility

            permanent disability

            death.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Most killers are arrogant about the deaths they cause ans you are a typical killer. If you claim that “severe cramping” is a reason to kill then you are a sociopath! When one ends the life of another human being, you mental midget, one has killed no matter the reason! but killing for “cramps” is the ultimate selfishness. How many of your children died because you are a selfish prick?

          • King Rat

            There is a list of about 50+ severe side effects jackass.

            Should a woman be forced to go blind to preserve life? To develop diabetes? PTSD? Obstetric fistula? Painful vaginal tearing? Multiple sclerosis? Depression? All permanent btw.

            Well?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Donkey brain are you an advocate of preventing all pregnancies to protect women? i know no one would ever have sex with you but do you want to prevent virile men and women who love them because of the risks you idiot?

          • ansuz

            King Rat is not attributing intent to zefs, but rather analyzing unwanted pregnancy from the perspective of the pregnant person. If I don’t want something or someone in my body, then it does not belong in my body.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Of course you do! When one chooses to dominate another human they disregard that other human in favor of their own concerns. Slave holders consider themselves more important than their slaves. Rapists see to their own needs above those they rape. Child molesters take care of their own needs despite the consequences. Women who abort place their comfort above the lives of those they kill. No one doubts this We just are sickened by it! Kind of like, If I don’t want Jews and Gypsies in my country they do not belong there! Killers are killers. Do you laugh when you kill?

          • ansuz

            “Of course you do!”
            Of course I do what?

            I…can’t really make sense of your comment.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            That is because you have a need to kill. Killers of human beings, rapists and Child molesters have difficulty comprehending logic and decency! you are one of them!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You asked: “Of course I do what?” Grasp this: You kill! You cause human boys and girls to die and they die bloody deaths! You kill!

          • ansuz

            Okay, but that has literally nothing to do with my comment; I never said that we didn’t.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Brain-trust, when one chooses to assess a situation from the viewpoint of only one side, one is an idiot!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Easy guy, you’ll give yourself a coronary.

          • Shan

            Stunning histrionics!

            Brb, gotta go have another abortion. Once I get my punchcard full, I get the next one for FREE!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            I guess you never felt passionately about something, that unrelated to shopping!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I wasn’t aware that I was passionate about shopping. And did anyone ever teach you how to construct a legible sentence?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Your lack of self-awareness does not surprise me. Your inability to glean information from a sentence with a typo indicates brain damage. Your need to kill your unborn frightens me and all other people who value life.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Funny, but the only person here who’s been talking about killing is you–seems you can’t get enough of it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Creepy is the word. You think he is wacking off to us? These guys who do this “prolife” stuff are sexpigs and murderers.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Gather 10 rapists and 10 rape victims in a room and only the victims will talk about rape. Gather 10 Choicers and 10 lifers in a room and only the lifers will acknowledge the dead victims. Gather 10 Nazis and 10 Jews in a room and only the Jews will talk about the murdered.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Difficulty understanding written communication? Too many Abortions taking their toll?

          • ansuz

            *snicker*
            You do realize that you’ve replied to this comment at least once already?
            And that not all pro-choice people have had abortions? And that some pro-life people have had abortions?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Fully cognizant of ALL of my responses. Thank you. The real problem is that your responses are crap!

          • King Rat

            Did you know, kiddo, that during antebellum slavery, female slaves were repeatedly raped and forced to give birth? That they were livestock, and considered even more valuable than the strongest male because they could produce valuable slaves. Yep.

            Did you also know that these female slaves routinely took herbs to abort their pregnancies.

            Tell us, do you consider these women to be as evil as the slavers who owned and raped them? Well, do ya?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            In your stupidity you are focusing on the pregnancies instead of the violence of rape. Shame on you for ignoring the rape! Rape and Abortion are wrong for the same reasons diddle-brain!

          • King Rat

            Tell us, do you consider these women to be as evil as the slavers who owned and raped them? Well, do ya?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            First tell me would you rather be a slave or would you rather be butchered and thrown in a garbage bin?

          • ansuz

            Butchered and thrown in a garbage bin, easily. Death sucks, but then it’s over. Plus I don’t really care what happens to my body after I’ve left it; I don’t have a great relationship with it.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So if a woman dies from pregnancy related difficulties who cares?

          • ansuz

            If she chose, all the way through, to carry the pregnancy, and specifically told people to prioritize the life of the fetus over her life? I’ll mourn her, but be happy that her wishes were respected and her life wasn’t saved against her will.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            BTW, if someone wanted to take your kitty and kill her would you allow them?

          • ansuz

            If it’s my kitty’s life or a person’s happiness, I’d go with the person.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Unless the person was unborn. then you would rip them apart and trash them!

          • ansuz

            Er, well, yes: I assign late-term fetuses roughly the same moral value as cats.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            The aborted never get a chance to be happy because the selfish kill them. They die a bloody death.

          • ansuz

            I don’t actually have a problem with any of this. Are these questions supposed to be hard?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Answer this: Would you rather be raped or be torn limb from limb and have your brains sucked out until your skull collapses?

          • ansuz

            How long does the rape last? Fifteen minutes? Rape. Nine months, followed by pushing a bowling ball out of my vagina or major abdominal surgery? Torn limb from limb and having my brains sucked out.

          • King Rat

            butchered and thrown in a garbage bin vs. use someone’s body for my own gain

            I am not a narcissist, like you.

          • King Rat

            I would rather die than suffer, tyvm!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            For my part, I would rather be alive than have my limbs ripped off and my brains sucked out until my skull collapses. How about you? Many slaves lived to be free. many escaped to freedom. The aborted humans are rotting in land fills ecause your kind wanted them to die!

          • King Rat

            My life is not so important that someone else has to suffer to keep me alive.

            I am not a self absorbed, self-important special snowflake such as yourself, who would demand that someone else suffer

            Unlike you, I am not selfish

          • King Rat

            Why don’t you tell us more!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Brain trust idiot. Slavers ownesd human beings. Women who abort KILL human beings. What do you think idiot? Do you think? Can you think?

          • King Rat

            Tell us, do you consider these women to be as evil as the slavers who owned and raped them? Well, do ya??

          • Shan

            “Women who abort place their comfort above the lives of those they kill.”

            So?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Histrionics with a touch of racism–just wow.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very poor analogy.

          • King Rat

            Nicks is not v smart.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No he’s really not.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And to invade means to come from another place unlawfully. Consensual sex often results in pregnancy, you knew that, didn’t you? A sexually active man and woman should never be surprised when pregnancy occurs. If they are surprised it is probably because they lack basic intelligence. Th claim that the human life you created through a consensual act is an “alien invader” is childish and, selfish and irresponsible. To abort that life is the act of a selfish and calculated killer. To ask others to pay for one’s need to kill is the act of a Libtard!

          • King Rat

            Consent to sex is no more consent to pregnancy than consent to driving a car is consent to an accident.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Because sex is not an act that results in conception? When rats have intercourse baby rats are produced! You really are uninformed.

          • King Rat

            Sex can sometimes result in conception.

            Furthermore, sex has another purpose. Which is pair bonding. And a child need not be produced every single time.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Because the idiots have no idea that intercourse often results in pregnancy. How long have you been so stupid?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So if you are d hunk and you consent to dive as nd you kill 11 pro-choice on their w a o abort, no one w a s killed?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Translation to English? You must have been a rotten teacher.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Lol, damned auto correct. My bad. My point was if one consents to drive drunk one must be prepared to deal with those might encounter accidentally. Killing them is not a choice for some human beings. How bout you Jenny? BTW I was an awesome teacher Ask any of my former students. Friends with hundreds on FB.

          • ansuz

            “And to invade means to come from another place unlawfully. ”
            Not colloquially, it doesn’t.

            “Consensual sex often results in pregnancy,”
            Very infrequently.

            “A sexually active man and woman should never be surprised when pregnancy occurs.”
            Well, I’m okay then; I’m not a man or a woman.

            “If they are surprised it is probably because they lack basic intelligence.”
            Ableism.

            “Th claim that the human life you created through a consensual act is an “alien invader” is childish and, selfish and irresponsible.”

            I do not care about your judgment. I have every right to define my own experiences.

            “To abort that life is the act of a selfish and calculated killer.”
            *snicker*

            “To ask others to pay for one’s need to kill is the act of a Libtard!”

            Would you rather pay for the million dollar NICU bill or the $400 abortion? Also, ableism.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You said: “Would you rather pay for the million dollar NICU bill or the $400 abortion?” We pay for the incarceration of thousands of criminals. We pay for those in orphanages. Would you have them dead as well? Do you want to do the killing? No doubt!

          • ansuz

            I’m mostly a socialist. I like the government paying for things. I’d like the government to pay for million dollar NICU bills for people who want those children and the $400 abortions for those who want abortions. I just think that it’s a bit strange when people complain about paying for abortions and birth control when they’re so cheap compared to pregnancy and childbirth.

          • King Rat

            If you don’t want it there it is an invader.

            Sex is also normal, and natural. But sex without consent is rape. If you do not want a penis in your vagina, or a balstocyst in your womb, you are within your rights to remove both.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Can you be more ignorant? Comparing rape to conception is the flaccid attempt of those who need excuses to kill unborn humans!

          • King Rat

            I can see that the concept of consent went right over your head.

            Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Actually i was overwhelmed by your abject stupidity to even notice the weather. Your stupidity is changing the IQ of the entire planet!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            How stupid i sound? Defending the lives of unborn human beings? Do you have any idea as to how stupid you are?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Mental midget, when humans engage in intercourse they enjoy an act that often results in conception. Comparing this to Rape is an indication that you have raped anyone you have put your little penis in!

          • King Rat

            Consent is revocable you twit. And if someone or something is using your body, and you demand that they stop, and they do not, that is rape.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So, mental midget, if I invite someone on my private jet to Singapore. and they annoy me…I can revoke my invitation and push them out of the door to their death? Are you retarded or do you just like to kill?

          • King Rat

            What if they assault you? Why if they shove a large baby sized object up your rectum? Would that be rape? Would you have the right to use deadly force to protect yourself? Or does the right to life override your right not to have you body viciously assaulted?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And when I asked you if you could be more ignorant i didn’t expect me to prove you were. But you did!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Walking out into the street has risks. Flying in a plane has risks. Most pregnancies end with mother and child fine. Some don’t. All abortions have a at least 50% mortality rate!

          • King Rat

            Only we don’t force people to take risks that can kill and maim them. We specifically do not force people to put life and limb on the line to save anyone – not even newborns, toddlers or 40 year olds.

            Why should prenates get extra special treatment?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            ” kill and maim ?” So abortion does not maim or kill?

          • King Rat

            Ahem…

            Only we don’t force people to take risks that can kill and maim them. We specifically do not force people to put life and limb on the line to save anyone – not even newborns, toddlers or 40 year olds.

            Why should prenates get extra special treatment?

          • Jennifer Starr

            The only person who can decide what risks they are willing to assume is the person who is going to be assuming those risks–in this case the pregnant woman. She’s the only one who should be making decisions about her pregnancy.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            The same pregnant woman who demands that others pay for her to kill her pre-born son or daughter?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So the dad has no say. So the woman who chose to engage in acts that cause pregnancy is an idiot? When the woman gives birth and decides the products of pregnancy are repulsive to her do you support the drowning of the newborn? I bet you do!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Merely to be realistic about it. My pro-choice grandparents made the choice to have seven children. And yes, my grandma suffered health issues. But it was a risk she freely chose to take.

          • Dana

            Pregnancy IS great for those who choose it. That does not negate the fact that it’s not the same health state as not being pregnant. I don’t know that I would go as far as to say it’s “not a state of wellness” if nothing else is wrong with the woman. It’s definitely taxing on your health though. Traditional cultures gave women extra-nutritious foods during pregnancy to help alleviate some of that (they didn’t know about vitamins and minerals, but they were pretty observant). Whereas we give pregnant women cheap prenatals and WIC and no, that doesn’t cut it.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Well its not a state of wellness, ive almost lost a couple friends to pregnancy complications

            Intention, how about the truth that pregnancy isnt all rainbows and unicorns, neither is motherhood like a diaper commercial

          • Unicorn Farm

            “Please Please Please stop this”

            No one here is required to discuss their experience with pregnancy they way you want them to.

          • Shan

            “No one here is required to discuss their experience with pregnancy they way you want them to.”

            Exactly. Between this and the gaslighting on the other thread, I’m pretty sure Von IS a “dude” after all.

          • Unicorn Farm

            I agree. My profession is so male-dominated–specifically, argumentative males– and Von’s syntax and tone come off as male, too, in addition to all that charming gaslighting.

          • Shan

            Different profession, here, but same kind of circumstances. With the delightful addition of bullying.

          • Mirable

            People have always assumed that I am a guy because I come off as rather aggressive:p I don’t mind, however.

          • Unicorn Farm

            That’s happened to me before, too :) I think differences in men and women’s speech patterns are interesting ( and learning about speech patterns/linguistics, generally).
            Sounding male isn’t per se bad, of course… lying about it is kinda lame though, per Von’s performance on the other thread.

          • ansuz

            Which other thread is this? I’m trying to distract myself right now, and could use some entertainment.

          • Unicorn Farm

            There’s a 600+ comment thread on the article about the Wisconsin buffer zone ordinance from a week or so ago.
            Grab your popcorn :)

          • ansuz

            Excellent.

          • Shan

            “Grab your popcorn”

            And a leather helmet. There’s a lot of *headdesk* involved.

          • ansuz

            I see what you mean about the headdesk.

          • fiona64

            Did you seriously have any doubts that VRH was male? I surely didn’t.

          • Shan

            Well, I try to give the benefit of the doubt. VRH claimed “not a dude” and “not a bro” at different times and I don’t presume EVERYBODY on the Internet is lying ALL the time….

          • fiona64

            Understood …

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Tokophobic woman often kill their unborn sons and daughters because of irrational fears.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Unless you’re pregnant, you don’t get to decide what is ‘irrational’. Only the pregnant woman can do that.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Is it safe to assume that you are pregnant Jennifer? If not then you should shut that hole you call a mouth!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m not the one who’s trying to make other people’s reproductive decisions. I leave those decisions to the woman who is pregnant, just like you should. All clear on that, Nickykins?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Jennypoopoo, when those women demand that I help pay for their choices where is my choice poo poo?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Who’s demanding that you pay anything, Nickybabybooty? The voices in your head or your inflatable girlfriends?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Jennylessthanhuman, is it a nice rock you have been living under? Sandy the Fluke lied her way into the dead hearts of Pro-Choicers in order to force others to pay for her abortions and her birth co t rd olympic. Can you wrap your little be a in a wound that Jennypoop?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Kennebunkport, did your cucumbers tell you I have inflatable girlfriends? I didn’t w as nth you to know…because they have so much more personality than you. And JunkieJenny I still won’t date you. Stop asking.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Ever heard of the affordable care act wherein woman want others to pay for their abortions? Been living under that rock long Jenny claptrap?

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you’re talking about contraception, that’s not an abortion. If you’re talking about something else, you’re listening to the voices of your inflatable girlfriends again.

          • Suba gunawardana

            It’s not “others” but insurance who pays for your healthcare anyway. If insurance pays for you to breed, and your prostate care & Viagra, it should also pay for all women’s reproductive health including contraception. If it doesn’t pay for abortion now, it should.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And, where pray-tell, does the government get the money to fund government healthcare? My prostate is healthy because I eat well. Have no need of Viagra, not covered by insurance even if I did need it, I pay cash for contraception because I’m not a liar like Sandra Fluke. Wrong so many times Suba.

          • Suba gunawardana

            -Do you think our taxes should only go to foreign wars while people at home die from lack of healthcare?

            -Do you think men who do have prostate problems should just suck it up? Oh I forgot, if it doesn’t affect you it’s not a problem worth considering. (BTW diet has little to do with prostate health),

            -If contraception WERE free for all, there would be far fewer pregnancies and far fewer abortions.Of course you wouldn’t want that, because then what can you complain about?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Idiot where did i say taxes should go for war? Are you retarded? If you weren’t so brain dead you would know that prostate health is linked to diet. Have you ever read a scholarly article? You believe the unwanted should be killed. You are heinous. you think the untouchables need to be trashed. You are low, less than those you kill. You are heinous!

          • Suba gunawardana

            LOL!!! Touched a nerve there did it? :) Now don’t have a meltdown just yet, We are only getting started.

            If you support war, it’s a fair assumption that you think taxes should go for war. Considering you never rebutted my previous analogy on the other thread, it’s also a fair assumption that you support war. (Besides I have yet to meet a forced birth nut who is not also a gun nut & war nut).

            Again, read before you explode. I said diet has little to do with prostate health, not nothing. There are other factors that affect it far more, such as testosterone levels & genetics. (For example no diet can save those who are genetically prone to prostate cancer).

            The rest of your post is just a bunch of groundless insults, which, as usual, only proves my point.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            MY insults are not groundless. You are a moron and you are a killer. These are facts. I am a Pagan. My creed surrounds me like the womb of the goddess. “An it harm none, do as thou wilt.” I known your caste system allows you to kill those of lower birth. I know you believe you spewed forth from the mouth of your goddess, but that makes you spittle or vomit. I do not support war you idiot! I do not support violence you moron and I do not support the killing of the inborn you imbecile. My insults are grounded in your stupidity! Grasp that!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Just because you never met “a forced birth nut who is not also a gun nut & war nut” does not make your moronic assumptions correct. How long have you relied in minimal contact to devise your opinions? These make you appear stupid when my experience of you says intelligent.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Liar, you said diet has nothing to do with prostate health. Why are you such garbage?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Actually, moron, diet can save those prone to prostate cancer, from cancer. How long have you been a moron?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Half-Brain, anyone can get free contraception you idiot and there are still unwanted pregnancies. You claimed that abortion would end child abuse and poverty but you idiot 40 years later and abortion has ended none of these. Were you once intelligent? No? no doubt!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Wrong. ACA just made it legal that doesn’t mean it’s ACCESSIBLE. Forced-birthers still fight tooth & nail to deny contraception & sexual education. And of course it was never free before.

            I NEVER claimed abortion would end all child abuse, only prevent future abuse of that particular fetus being aborted. HUGE difference.

            Abortion is just one measure to reduce child abuse. Considering how widespread the problem is, of course it cannot end all child abuse. That’s like claiming seat belts are useless because car crashes still happen after seatbelt laws.

            One preventive measure can do only so much. To prevent all abuse, forced-birthers need to stop breeding so much & forcing others to breed.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So what do propose as the next measure to prevent child abuse when you and your kind have taught women to kill their unborn? What makes your less than adequate brain think that a woman who knows she can kill her son or daughter before birth won’t wonder if she can kill him or her after birth?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Sugar, no one pays for me to breed. I do that as nature intended ed ended. Type when I support and nurture those I helped to create. Don’t kill here. The thing t he brainless fail to ‘re like is that when insurance pays for something heinous,like abortion, the money comes from many people. Some of which don’t like killing unborn humans.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Now if I recall, you claimed you were on welfare. If you breed while on welfare, yes,EVERYONE is paying for you to breed.

            Even if you are not on welfare, its the same insurance or other healthcare system that pays for childbirth, and pre/ post-natal care. So yes, if you oppose insurance paying for birth control & abortion, I have every right to oppose the same insurance paying for relentless breeding.

            However neither of us will be successful. We have no say in where taxes go.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So you want to sterilize all of those on welfare? i know you and your caste system considers them untouchables. What made garbage like you think she is better than other?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Can you point out where I said any of these things?

            And also stop avoiding the point, If you CHOOSE to breed while on welfare, everyone is paying for you to breed. Therefore your original statement that “Sugar, no one pays for me to breed” is disproved right before your eyes.

            While breeding on other peoples’ dime, you cannot complain about taxes going to contraception/abortion.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            How stupid are you? No response needed. I am not on welfare, although I did spend several months receiving those benefits. Your responses indicate that you want those on welfare to refrain from reproduction. You are garbage!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            The only people who engaged in “relentless breeding” and should have stopped are your parents!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Wrong again. Wow, Suba, have you ever been right? Pro-Lifers have assured that our taxes don’t go to the killing of the unborn. We also stopped the killing of boys and girls as they were being born. We w fight to stop all other forms of child abuse, and we will also stop rape one day! How about you? Do you fight to have the caste system legalized?

          • Suba gunawardana

            True, taxes do not go to abortion, Yet forced birthers keep bitching they do, whenever it suits them.

            So since you get to breed on other people’s dime while not paying for abortions, what are YOU bitching about right now? You get to breed use & abuse all the children you want.

          • Suba gunawardana

            And as I said on the other thread, you keep slinging racial slurs at another nation that has nothing to do with this topic. How ridiculous can you get?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            How is that different from you slinging hatred towards people who hold to the ideological belief that the unborn are persons who should not be killed? Answer this intelligently? Without the caste system tainting your response!

          • Suba gunawardana

            P.S. Why would you want to stop rape? Isn’t that another way you could enslave women & turn them into breeding machines against their will? Oh you mean stop rape “nominally”, i.e. call it something else.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Why would anyone who is not garbage ask this question? I have daughters. I have sisters. I have a mother and aunts. IO have many female friends. I know your kind don’t view rape of untouchables as rape but I see any woman forced into such violent actions as victims of rape! Why do you only see rape as the violation of those of your caste you garbage?What made you an idioty? Rape is rape, heinous acts ;like abortion. Why do you like rape and abortion you garbage?

          • ansuz

            Seriously, cut out the fucking racism.

          • Suba gunawardana

            What do you mean by “your kind”? As I said before, learning a couple words is not enough, you should know their meaning and how to use them in the proper context.

            I am genuinely curious. Who are you trying to insult here? If it’s me, why do you keep slinging racial slurs at another nation?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            No response to my recourse on Rape? You must like the rape of the untouchables too much. Making no slurs against any nation idiot! making slurs against your belief that those you considre “untouchables” should not be allowed to have children. How retarded are you to miss the point?

          • Suba gunawardana

            I educated you in detail in another post.

            And I did respond to your “recourse” on rape. As I said Chris, you need to learn the proper use of words.

            Rape is terrible. Forced birth is just as horrible as rape. They both violate a woman’s body. Her physical, mental and emotional well being. Forced birth is worse because it harms a child too.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            First: You have NEVER educated anyone! Second, moron, my name is not Chris, is that the name of a son you killed? Third: Rape is always horrible, because those men and women who survive it can attest. But Abortion is like rape, you idiot, because the innocent one is ripped to shreds and bleeds until death! What made you retarded?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Actually I have educated plenty. You are just a slow learner but you’ll get there.

            And your name is Chris. No use denying it at this late stage. (As I said before, you are an open book).

            You are avoiding the point. Rape is terrible, so is forced birth. Victims of forced birth survive, just like with rape. The legacy of forced birth is years of child abuse and mental illness, a lifetime of scars; unproductive lives; sometimes a repetition of the cycle of abuse.

            Now to address your point: Ripped to shreds is not painful or cruel when you are not sentient, when you don;t have a developed CNS. It’s just a quick & painless death, that will PROTECT you from a life of misery as an unwanted child.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Moron, you have educated your feces. (do you eat them as well?) Stupid moron, my name is Nick. You are an abject idiot to the millionth degree. Nick here you brain-dead idiot! Nick you stupid excuse for a human being. I’m Nick! In your stupidity you fail to realize that when one is raped one fights to survive. The victim of rape wants to live you idiot! The humans aborted have been denied their right to live! You are a killing piece of garbage! You are trash!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Everyone does not have the same unhealthy attachment to life, or the unhealthy fear of death that you seem to have. (It’s mostly a religious nut thing. People who think for themselves usually lose these fears).

            Anyway, death is not always a bad thing, and it is well recognized that death can sometimes BENEFIT the individual being killed. By providing a merciful escape from suffering, either current or potential. That’s why there are such things as euthanasia and abortion.

            Women in war-torn countries, when faced with enemies about to rape & torture their children, are known to kill the children first to spare them from the agony.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Why do you like being a heap of garbage?

          • Suba gunawardana

            No rebuttal again I gather…

            One thing I’ve learned on these on-lne forums is that, empty insults from an opponent with no rebuttal are the same as compliments from a worthy opponent.

            Considering all the gems you presented me with, looks like I won this debate hands-down.

            If you do find any counters, please post them. I will respond with my usual courtesy.

            Bye for now Chris!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Shit-head, not Chris here. he was the man that fathered the baby you killed pout of regret. Dont blame that killing on me jerk. My name IS Nick Ponzio you brain dead moron. Chris wanted to kill himself after being with you. No one can blabe him because you are garbage,.

          • Suba gunawardana

            LOLOLOLOL!!!! Touched a nerve there big time didn’t we…

            I just had to peek in one more time to catch the last bit of the show.

            “My name IS Nick Ponzio you brain dead moron”

            The lady doth protest too much, huh?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You really are mentally retarded as well as a killer and a believer in the Caste system. Basic garbage! ;)

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Nerve? The only thing touched is you!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Dung-Brain you cannot, ever, win a debate on human life because you are a senseless killer of the unborn. You kill, you are garbage ans your ex-lover Chris says you are garbage who kills.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Chris? You are so stupid! What caused your brain damage? Chris left you when you killed his son! His son bled to death because you are a selfish piece of garbage!

          • Rainbow Walker

            I see you found his legal name. And look he’s been changing his avatar. And it took him a few days before it dawned on him. He’s been answering you like nothing was amiss. Of course he is quite dense. Somebody must have told him, “hey dude she knows your real name.”

            He didn’t avail himself of the counseling resources I offered. Just hope he’s caught before he hurts again.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Hi Rainbow! I guess you knew all about little Chris here well before I figured it out.

            It’s been quite a show. LOL! If you have time maybe you should scroll around & see the whole “conversation”. :)

          • Rainbow Walker

            Yes I did. He does have a record, but then you know that too. I have been reading these posts. He is quite disturbed. He suffers from a deep personality disorder. Fixates on death, rape and abortion. Must demean others, enjoys inflicting pain, projects and trapped in circular splitting. And he’s a coward. Notice his remarks towards women are even more venomous.

          • Suba gunawardana

            Very true, he lives & breathes hate. The meltdowns are hilarious though. At least as long as he is screaming at people here, he won’t be out there hurting people….

          • Suba gunawardana

            P.S. Whom do I consider “untouchable”?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Suba, you who kill those who you deem untouchable are an arrogant moron to ask me that question. How retarded are you? All living human beings are worthy of life. i told you that ass-brain. My creed tells me “Harm none and do as thou will! You are a raging killer of the unborn. You are garbage!

          • Suba gunawardana

            As I said before and you fail to grasp, I personally do dot go around killing people or aborting fetuses.
            I merely uphold a woman’s right to have an abortion if she chooses.

            You fight to deny women that right, thereby violating women’s physical & mental autonomy. Very similar to RAPE. Your actions also promote child abuse.

            I have rebutted your “human being” argument many times. Go read them again and provide a proper rebuttal if you got one. Repetition and name-calling don’t count as a rebuttal.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Answer this garbage!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Here’s another point you can go berserk on.

            Idiots’ “right to breed” should NEVER trump the safety and well-being of future children.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So you want to sterilize those you consider idiots? Go get sterilized you idiot!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Something wrong with your logic there Chris.

            Even if I “wanted to sterilize those I consider idiots”, why would I get sterilized myself? Obviously I don’t consider myself an idiot, and neither do you. (You may rant & rave but I can see right through you).

            And what do you think of the safety & wellbeing of children? Shouldn’t THAT trump idiots’ right to breed?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Moron, who is Chris? Was he the man who ran out on you because you were pregnant? Is that why you killed your son or daughter?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Chris is you, and you know it.

            And no man ran out on me, as I pick my men carefully. For example I would never have a relationship with a forced-birth nut.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            “Even if I “wanted to sterilize those I consider idiots”, why would I get sterilized myself?” No denial here. Just the indication oo Eugenics. You really are trash. No doubt.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Brain dead idiot: who is Chris moron?

          • Suba gunawardana

            P.S. I know you have no rebuttals and it’s hard to find anything real in my posts to insult, but trashing a whole different nation is rather childish even for you, don’t you think?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Forced birth is just as bad as rape. They both violate a woman’s body; her physical mental and emotional well being

          • Suba gunawardana

            Thanks Chris for that exceptional circus fre&k performance! LOL I
            asked you to hold off on the meltdown but you went ahead & did it
            anyway… Did you enjoy it as much as I did?

            Now that you threw around those new words to your heart’s content, let me educate you. Caste system is the social hierarchy in India. Since I am not from India and have nothing to do with the caste system, it’s just entertaining to watch you keep hurling inapplicable racial slurs.

            (Even if you happened to hurl any APPLICABLE racial slurs it wouldn’t bother me, since generalizations are stupid anyway. And it’s hilarious that 90% of your posts are devoted to insults, and you still fail to make any real, applicable or even creative ones. Learn to THINK. Feels like I have to teach you everything from the ground up….)

            As explained in the link below, they have 4 main classes, but technically no “untouchables” that you mention. (I’ve heard the term too though). So what makes you throw a hissy fit about this
            caste system? Did someone treat you like an untouchable? If they did, I’m sure it had NOTHING to do with any caste system :)

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Does not matter where the Caste system has originated. The fact remains that you are enmeshed in it. You hate the poor, consider them untouchable AND WANT TO DENY THEM THEIR RIGHT TO HAVE CHILDREN. yOU are garbage and always will be!

          • Suba gunawardana

            It’s pathetically obvious to anyone which one of us has the Hate market cornered.

            Now for your point: It has nothing to do with being poor, but being idiotic and abusive, and having no consideration for your children.

            Children are not your toys to use and abuse.

            No idiot should have the right to indiscriminately spit out children with no consideration for their safety & well being. if you cannot take care of children, you have no business breeding them.

            Parenthood should not be a right, but a privilege to be earned.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So children are your things to let live or die you sick thing?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            “Parenthood should not be a right, but a privilege to be earned.” Clearly your parents failed when they created you!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You treat the poor as untouchable you garbage thing. You kill unborn humans because you are trash! You are the lowest of the low. You should be working in the dung heaps!

          • Suba gunawardana

            LOL Another hissy fit with no point at all. Do you live & breathe hate?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Hissy fit? Naw, just vomiting over the thing yo are to say ::Parenthood should not be a right, but a privilege to be earned.: when your parents should have drowned you at birth!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Obviously I have made my parents proud. (I help those in need, those who are already here, without adding to the problem)

            Have you made yours proud?

            I repeat, parenthood should be a privilege to be earned, NOT a right.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Again, your eugenicist nature makes you a killer, you moroin. I know you are a hateful killer and you prove me right!

          • Suba gunawardana

            As I already explained (very patiently too), there’s no human who’s not a killer. Calling someone else a killer doesn’t make you any less of a killer.

            And BTW, it’s not such a bad thing. Nature dictates that we cannot live without killing.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Ah so if a man rapes you and kills you it is not such a bad thing you stupid jerk?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Imbecile: I have never ended a human life. You have. You are garbage, trash and a moron!

          • Suba gunawardana

            As I already said, “human life” is not all that special.

            And as I explained in detail in a prior post, no human can live without killing others, directly or indirectly. You are just as guilty of killing as the next guy.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You said in your stupidity: “As I already said, “human life” is not all that special.”indicates that you are a rapist, a killer and garbage. Your parents must want you dropped in a dung heap!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Repeating what I said, or name-calling, does not make a valid rebuttal.

            I guess you have no rebuttal and you agree with what I said?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            This response from a woman who killed her sons and daughters? You are an idiot!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Dung heap? You keep repeating that word. Are there many dung heaps where you live?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Only where women like you abort!

          • Suba gunawardana

            And obviously, I don’t believe in ANY deity, goddess or otherwise. Blind faith is for idiots.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Idiot, is stopping rape “nominally” for the lower thinks in your caste system?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Suba is generally right. You’re the ‘passionate’ one who goes off on irrational rants. Let’s keep the roles straight here.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            jennifer, you are trash like Suba if you desire to force the poor to abort!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Were you ever correct? Once?

          • Suba gunawardana

            Now now Chris, you know I’m ALWAYS correct on this subject. If in doubt, just re-read all my comments.

            BTW didn’t we both have a lot more comments yesterday? I don’t see them anymore.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            What you fail to realize, in your desire to kill undesirables of the caste system you call home, is that all human beings have a right to reproduce. You desire to kill those you deem undesirable. that is because you are trash!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So women who are not pregnant, women who are sterile, and post-menopausal women should be denied the vote as to whether or not Abortion should remain legal?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not quite. I might be able to get pregnant, but I don’t get to make a decision about other people’s pregnancies. Only my own. And when you get pregnant, you can make your decisions about that pregnancy too.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            So, since you and I are not pregnant we should shut our mouths regarding Abortion?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Able is junk. If you are not carrying a living human inside you then shut your stupid mouth you jerk!

          • Dana

            I wish I had before and after photos of my body pre and post pregnancy, and I’ve had two kids. Just appearance-wise, I looked awesome before my first one, and now? I’ve got weight to lose and I’d want plastic surgery if I wanted to pass muster with most of these guys (I’m single). I mean, it’s scary. Pregnancy did this to me because I didn’t have these problems *before* then. Also the hormonal changes have pushed me into a greater risk for diabetes.

            Also, in my second pregnancy, I had a serious inflammatory flareup in nearly all my joints, knees the worst, and I had to walk sideways to go up and down stairs and needed help getting up off the sofa, and the only thing that would touch it was naproxen (Aleve), and you’re not supposed to take that during pregnancy. My daughter turned out pretty much OK (I also had a vitamin A shortage no one warned me about or even tested me for, and I believe it’s linked to the defects she was born with, after much research, but we dealt with those), but I’m terrified of this ever happening again. I suppose it’s just as well I look freaky these days.

          • fiona64

            One of my best friends has such drastic pubic symphysis diastasis (you know from experience that your pelvis never fully reconnects and widens further with each pregnancy, right? That’s the technical name for the phenomenon) that she can no longer walk properly or ride her bicycle.

            I had hyperemesis gravidarum so bad that I almost died. Another friend developed gestational diabetes that converted to DM-II (in other words, it never went away). A former colleague had been a concert pianist with a degree from Juillard … until gestational carpal tunnel *also* went permanent.

            These are *not* uncommon effects of pregnancy. These guys who insist that pregnancy is “natural, and therefore normal” do not have the slightest idea what they’re talking about. If it were a state of wellness, there would be no need for constant MD appointments and checkups.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Misandry is bigotry!

          • fiona64

            Your accusation of misandry is risible.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Only a misandrist would think so! Thanks for that!

          • fiona64

            Fess up … You have no idea what the word means …

          • Dana

            Sometimes you want to take the risk and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you can’t take the risk right now but you know you’ll want to take it later. Tubal ligation is permanent and any further messing about with the tubes if she changes her mind later puts her at greater risk of tubal pregnancy. And please don’t tell me you’re one of those twits who thinks women can survive a tubal (ectopic) pregnancy. Shit you not, I’ve run into antis like that.

            There are women who have the kids anyway even though it’s a bad time and then you very same people shame them and take all their help away. Now why would you do that?

          • five_by_five

            And yet hundreds of millions of women chose to have babies every year.

            And I never would take their help away. So fuck off troll.

          • expect_resistance

            You’re the troll stupid.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Actually to give the blanket statement like that is really stupid but no wonder. The fact is Abortion is deadly for over 50% of all humans involved.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Driving a car is more dangerous than pregnancy. Abortion is always dangerous, even deadly, for the one killed!

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killing troll you always ignores my posts on obstetric incontinence that ruins half of all mothers. The other half suffer other grisly indignities, like death, but monster troll you pretends no such dangers are connected to childbirth because that would undermine your false premise of “selfish convenience”. You’re a disgusting pig.

          • expect_resistance

            There doesn’t need to be a reason to have an abortion other than to not want to be pregnant.

          • Dana

            Now ask yourself why she would find the baby inconvenient. Or did that occur to you?

            Why would babies ever be an inconvenience, five? What circumstances would lead a woman to come to that conclusion?

            I’m pretty sure they don’t come up with the idea all by themselves.

            Also what everyone else said about pregnancy always being dangerous. There’s always a greater risk of death for the woman during the gestational period AND she needs recovery time afterward to replenish nutritional stores and heal her body. It’s not like she sneezed and poof, there’s a baby. That’s a hell of a lot to ask from a woman who isn’t ready to go through all that. And most sex acts don’t result in pregnancy so that’s not a good argument either.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What is it about not wanting to be pregnant you do not understand? Why am I asking? Everything.

            The sex part. The danger part. The economics part. All of it.

            Everyone please do me a personal favor. This particular post is the straw that broke my back. I am not posting to this Troll again for any reason.

            It is this Troll or me. If you all post to him, acknowledge him, treat him like his posts have merit, I WILL NOT POST HERE ANYMORE. It is 5X5 cubic pounds of shyte or me. I kid you not.

            I care for you all. And I personally am not going to make myself available for further abuse.

          • expect_resistance

            Oh crap, I just posted a response to five before I read your post. I share your frustrations and only respond to his crap with a response post that points out what a lying abusive troll he/she is.

            Please, please, please, don’t leave!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a really incredible awesome person and you are one of my favorite people here. Please don’t go.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            All abortions are also done to kill a son or daughter. Sometimes sons and/or daughters!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Most abortions are done for selfish reasons!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And those done for gender selection? How can you be so arrogant regarding your stupidity?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Were you born stupid?

          • ansuz

            Actually, I think that’s the legal reasoning behind Canada’s laws:

            “All abortions have already been deemed medically necessary by every province and territory, which means the procedure must be funded under the Canada Health Act, both in hospitals and private clinics.

            “The term “medically necessary” has been broadly defined to mean a “medical service that is essential to the health and medical treatment of an individual.” This must include all abortions because every pregnancy poses some medical risks, even when the woman and her fetus are healthy.”

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And if the Canadian government decides that human beings should be killed at the whim of the mother it makes killing good? So when the German government decided to kill Jews those chouces were good? The Mali government supports the circumcision of young girls. You find that practice good? Your reference is flawed. When humans die, someone kills!

          • ansuz

            Uhm, what? You’re barely coherent. What does that have to do with the fact that HeilMary’s point has been recognized by courts to be valid?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Your lack of comprehension does not excuse your ignorance. When a government decides that a human being is not human as an attempt to legalize the killing of said human being, the result is always dead human beings. If you fail to comprehend this ask help from an intelligent friend!

          • Suba gunawardana

            As I explained to you in detail before, the law does not hold human life sacred.

          • ansuz

            The Canadian government did not decide that fetuses were not human beings (afaik). As I said in my previous comment, they decided that concerns for the health of the pregnant person override any government interest in protecting fetuses.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            All abortions end in the death of a human. Deny this with proof or shut up!

          • ansuz

            I don’t actually care. I vote for killing someone as cleanly as possible over torturing someone, every time.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You vote for killing? No doubt. You must be a Liberal!

          • Suba gunawardana

            Death is NOT the worst fate for a living being. Prolonged suffering is. Throwing more unwanted children into an overburdened system, what you promote is suffering and abuse.

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        Does this mean you would kill your son or daughter if he or she were to be born with only one arm?

        • Jennifer Starr

          Non-sequitir.

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        Predicted birth defects? Kill those born with one hand? Kill those born blind? Killthose born with red hair? kill those who will vote republican?

    • Theodoor Westerhof

      What about subjecting the adoptions the Lifers like so much to the same standard?

    • cocoinfinity1 .

      Cpsmetic surgury only involves one personal body. abortion kills a person.

  • bitchybitchybitchy

    The legislation is yet another attempt to shut down and/or intimidate abortion providers. Want to reduce the number of abortiions? Pass legislation guaranteeing fact-based sexuality education and access to ALL methods of contraception.

  • jeevmon

    What’s particularly interesting to me about this effort is the cognitive dissonance with the conservative disdain for medical malpractice claims generally and those based on “pain and suffering” and “emotional distress” particularly. To hear conservatives tell it, an out-of-control malpractice system that allowed recovery for purely imaginary harms was and remains one of the biggest problems with health care. Unless, of course, that “emotional distress” comes from a “regretted” abortion. Then make the doctors pay!

    Not that cognitive dissonance is particularly new. The DOMA case, after all, arose from application of the federal estate tax to the survivor of a same-sex couple. The so-called “death tax” that was such an abomination that it needed to be phased out entirely suddenly became something that had to be enforced to the utmost if it would harm a gay person.

    • HeilMary1

      Exactly! ConservaTURDS loved attacking us ruptured silicone implant victims as “greedy whiners”, never mind that we suffered significant poisoning. I’d love to see women sue fetal idolaters for childbirth injuries, divorces, birth defects, etc.

    • Shan

      There’s so much cognitive dissonance over this subject, I think they’re just numb to it by now. I mean, in MY state, doctors are legally allowed to withhold medical information about a woman’s pregnancy if they think that information might lead her to decide to have an abortion.

      • ansuz

        That’s awful :(

        • Shan

          That’s Kansas. I expect similar “abortion regret” legislation to crop up here soon. After all, it makes perfect sense to be able to be able to sue the doctor who performed the abortion you asked for 10 years ago but not to be able to EVER sue the doctor who decided not to tell you your pregnancy was doomed because s/he thought it was better for you to go to term and deliver a dead/dying baby. Both presume women have no agency of their own.

          • lady_black

            I am very sure that law is unconstitutional and should be challenged. My impression is that no decent doctor would ever lie to a patient. It’s highly unethical.

          • JamieHaman

            Yes, it is highly unethical, however there are plenty of right wing nut Dr.s who will decide it is better to lie to a woman than the ‘greater violation’ of possibly being party to her decision to abort a defective child.
            It is still taking the decision out of a woman’s hands, into their own, which is exactly why this law was passed.

          • lady_black

            ” there are plenty of right wing nut Dr.s who will decide it is better to lie to a woman than the ‘greater violation’ of possibly being party to her decision to abort a defective child.”
            That, in and of itself, is a highly unethical decision when made by any medical professional. I’ve been a nurse for 27 years. I haven’t seen placebos used for quite some time, but when they were in use, it wouldn’t have been ethical to tell the patient the placebo was anything other than what it was. It would be OK to say “it’s your nerve medicine” (or whatever reason one was prescribed). But I couldn’t tell them it was Valium. Lying about the patient’s condition is even more unethical, for whatever reason. The patient has an absolute right to complete and honest information. Such a doctor belongs being hauled in front of his licensing board, and stripped of his license indefinitely. His misconduct has harmed the patient.

          • Shan

            Now that I’m thinking on it, I don’t even see how they COULD withhold that information. It’s usually a technician doing an ultrasound, and that person would either have to lie to the doctor or agree to lie FOR the doctor. And if they discover a fetal anomaly via amnio or CVS, they would have to refuse to release the lab report or falsify it outright, which can’t possibly have been made legal by this asinine legislation.

          • L-dan

            I don’t think the ultrasound techs. are usually the ones to give that information. Granted, this is an impression I’ve garnered from all the stories that go “and then the tech got quiet and went to call in the doctor,” before getting the bad new from the doctor.

          • cjvg

            I’m not as knowledgeable on labor and delivery as I can be (primarily because my interests are more along neurological development and malformations) but are there not fetal malformations/defects that actually increase pregnancy and child birth risks ?!

          • Mirable

            I figure that hydrocephalus could be very dangerous.

          • cjvg

            I remember reading something in a medical journal (a long time ago) that certain birth defects can cause polyhydramnios (excessive amniotic fluid) or the reverse oligohydramnios (to little fluid)

            This obviously does not only pose a problem to the fetus, but also to the mothers health and well being. (and that is about the extend of what I know about it, what exactly the consequences of these conditions are I forgot)

            I guess hydrocephalus would probably lead to a C-section, which has its own set of maternal health issues

          • lady_black

            Certainly.

          • HeilMary1

            Holoprosencephaly was very dangerous for a local woman.

            http://www . washingtonpost . com/wp-dyn/articles/A28673-2005Apr6 . html

          • Dana

            Yep. I’ve heard of cases where the fetus had a problem causing it to stiffen up and lie sideways in the uterus. It was going to die anyway and of course it couldn’t be delivered that way.

            Also anencephalic fetuses–they develop without any higher brain and the skull doesn’t close either. Their mothers are able to deliver them if so desired, but it isn’t recommended. I wouldn’t do it, because what’s the point.

          • Mirable

            I wouldn’t do it, because what’s the point.

            To let it experience life, no matter how short.

          • HeilMary1

            And miserable!

          • Shan

            And also, just because the physician thinks the woman might have an abortion if she finds out she’s going to have a baby with a genetic defect, that doesn’t mean she WILL. The parents not being counseled on how to prepare for a special needs infant is bad for the INFANT as well. Ugh, there’s SO much wrong here.

          • lady_black

            Exactly. There are decisions to be made, and denying the information harms the patient by denying them the chance to prepare for what comes next.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I would think that would be need to know information for the pregnant woman and her family. It’s disgusting that they would think that they get to decide what a pregnant woman should know.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There was actually a case somewhere where a doctor did genetic testing and got a positive test for tay-sachs and withheld that information, telling the couple that he hadn’t found anything. The father had already had people in his family who had died from this and was devastated when it was discovered after the baby was born. I can’t find the link about it now but that just infuriates me that the doctor thought that he had the right to not tell them that.

          • HeilMary1

            I remember that case.

          • Dana

            OH MY GOD WHAT??? My parents grew up in a small town in Louisiana that’s the worst hotbed of Tay-Sachs in the United States outside of the Ashkenazi Jewish community. It’s a guaranteed killer, there is NO alleviating the symptoms or buying time. It just tortures the poor child for nothing. :(

          • L-dan

            That’s horrifying. That kind of shit should lose someone their license.

          • HeilMary1

            Cult religion “doctors” are highly unethical and lie to patients “on behalf of God”.

  • painkills2

    Whenever there is a story regarding abortion rights, or the issue of the ACA paying for birth control, all the religious people come pouring into the comment thread (see latest story at Rolling Stone). It’s like an avalanche of hate, shame, and misinformation.

    One day, we will look back on this period of time in history, and wonder how religion was so successful at infecting scientific and political beliefs. (I promise.)

    • TheBrett

      Fortunately not here, yet. Although I’ve seen comments threads here turn into that.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Founded in 1967, the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion was a network of clergy who referred women to safe (though still illegal) abortions. There were 26 ministers and a rabbi at the founding of the network, and more than a thousand when the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court Decision made the organization unnecessary.

      The existence of a group of clergy willing to refer women to abortion services was important primarily for two reasons:

      safer abortions: women who consulted with the service could often find more reliable, safer abortion procedures than if they relied on their own informal networks.

      ethical statement: the presence of clergy willing to take professional and legal risks to aid women seeking abortions was an ethical statement, important in changing social attitudes towards the legalization of abortion.

      • painkills2

        I don’t think Roe v. Wade made these types of services unnecessary, do you?

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Agree. Seem to be necessary again soon, if not now.

  • Joey Randolph

    Abortion Regret arises SOULY from Abortion. Without an Abortion there can be NO Abortion Regret. Hence, the anatomy of an abortion must be examined to assign blame.

    First: Who FIRST Chose the abortion? The mother of a dead baby who now regrets her Immoral but Legal CHOICE.

    Second: The doctor who performed the Immoral but Legal elective surgery that resulted in the death of a precious gestating baby created by God in the Imago Dei, that the mother of her dead baby now regrets.

    Third: ROE. Kill Roe and we virtually eliminate Abortion Regret because NO MORE LEGAL abortions will occur. Henceforth, any abortion that is committed, like all murder homicides, will be committed ILLEGALLY affording our criminal justice system the opportunity to Arrest, Arraign, Prosecute and Incarcerate all the parties to the abortion murder the same as we do currently for all other murders by any and all means.

    Occam’s Razor: Keep It Simple Stupid. There is no need to go hunting for parties NOT involved in the murder with impunity choice; blame the culprits; the perps. Make them do perp walks of shame in front of the cameras and all of society. Watch the deterrent effect go ballistic.

    End Roe and End Abortion Regret!

    • ldwendy

      The other side of the coin is that there are women who regret
      – having to fight severe pregnancy complications only to watch their babies with fetal anomalies die after being delivered
      – being bullied into carrying and delivering a fetus only to relinquish them for what was billed as an open adoption only to see it close

      ….or are these women’s views not important to you? It’s all about the “precious baabyees”, right?

      *************
      You sound like one of those misogynists who are ignorant of the fact that that some pregnancies can kill the mother, or leave them with life-altering health issues. Consent to sex does not mean consent to pregnancy.

      • HeilMary1

        He’s probably a pedophile priest.

    • Jennifer Starr

      It’s solely, Joey boy. Not souly. And no, putting your words in ALL CAPS does not make you any more intelligent or any more correct. Thomas Jefferson sneers at you now.

      • HeilMary1

        The misspelling was probably intentional because pedophile priests believe zygotes have souls.

        • lady_black

          I’m not too sure about that. I think it denotes ignorance. ESPECIALLY if it was intentional. The word translated as “soul” in the original languages of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic indicate the concept of breathing. That is your “soul.” A lung full of air.

    • cjvg

      End childbirth, and that will end regretting having children.
      End marriage, and that will end divorce.
      End religion and that will end anti-choice policies
      Etcetera, etcetera, etcetra

      • HeilMary1

        Joe Blow should keep his pants zipped.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Word.

        • cjvg

          You know that that is not his responsibility!
          He cannot help it if he has sex without protection, that is all the fault of women!

          His only responsibility is to whip it out, force a woman to receive his holy seed, gestate his holy seed and prevent all women and girl children from having any (reproductive) choices at all !

          I have argued with this wannabe slave owner before on Aljazeera and he proceeded to tell me just that.
          According to him men have not one iota of responsibility when a pregnancy ensues, but should have full control over the womans choices the minute it does

          • lady_black

            He has quite a few more “thinks” coming.

          • L-dan

            Gag.

        • five_by_five

          Ah, you’re a fan a telling people to keep their pants zipped. Abstinence-only style.

          Didn’t you freak out when Rush Limbaugh told a women that?

          • HeilMary1

            Only hypocrite misogynists like you, Rush, Newt and pedophile priest James Burtchaell should keep your pants zipped.

    • paganheart

      Yes just end Roe v Wade and legal abortion and suddenly the world will be a wonderful place full of sunshine and fluffy clouds and fuzzy bunnies and kitties and puppies and unicorns who eat rainbows and poop jelly beans.

      What. A. F***ing. Joke.

      Only the simpleminded want simple solutions to complex prolems. Occam’s Razor be d**ned.

      Ladies and gentlemen, Exhibit A for Why I Left Organized Religion And Would Rather Gouge My Own Eyes Out Than Ever Set Foot In A Church Ever Again.

    • HeilMary1

      What about the far more prevalent guilt of women wishing they remained blissfully child-free? Child-free women don’t sport fetus-caused face- and breast-eating cancers that maimed and murdered many women I know/knew. Child-free women don’t agonize over priest-molested and suicided children. Child-free women don’t slink out of divorce court to avoid seeing their husbands’ much hotter mistresses. Child-free women don’t live homeless because childbirth bladder and bowel incontinence made them unemployable. Child-free women don’t rot in graves from frequent deadly childbirth complications.

      I’m sure mother killer you has an ugly record of abuse and you belong in jail for deadly womb trafficking on behalf of pedophile priests.

      • ljean8080

        ‘mother killer you’.You know,you can make a point the name calling.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Do you actually have anything to say about the article, or are you just busy feeding your Mary obsession again?

          • ljean8080

            If I called people names like she does,could I still post here?If not,why?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I repeat, do you have anything relevant to add that pertains to the subject of this article? Have you even read the article above? Or are you just going to continue to stalk Mary?

          • ljean8080

            Since when is asking someone to act like an adult stalking?

          • Mirable

            Why don’t you act like an adult and contribute to the discussion.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If Mary had been addressing you in her first post, you might have a point. But she wasn’t talking to you, was she? She wasn’t even talking about you at all.

            Now do you have anything to add that pertains to the discussion of this article? I’m now asking this for the third time.

          • Ella Warnock

            When that someone is constantly having a tantrum because she doesn’t like someone else’s language. RH is not the place for anyone with delicate sensibilities.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            When you ask 100 times. Passes reasonable complaint and becomes annoying whining.

            I smack the shyte out of whiners for fun. Too bad this is not real life.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the petulant tattletale toddler here. You’re livid that I dare harp on the frequent gruesome and bankrupting complications of childbirth. If childbirth complications weren’t frequently gruesome and bankrupting, we wouldn’t be having this debate, because abortions would then be rare.

          • L-dan

            hon, we have posters calling us murderers all the time that aren’t banned unless that’s basically all they have to say.

            Kind of like you’re being asked whether you actually have anything of substance to add or just plan to keep following Mary and pointing like a 10 year old going “moooom, she said the f-word!”

          • HeilMary1

            And I don’t even use the f-word! I just call anti-choicers what they are: mother killers. They hate it when we dish back.

          • Ella Warnock

            What are you, a toddler? Whhyyyyy . . .

            HM is looking a lot more mature than you are.

        • Ella Warnock

          She can also make a point with the name calling.

        • expect_resistance

          Stalker.

      • five_by_five

        flagged

    • HeilMary1

      I’ll bet Susan Smith and Andrea Yates wish they had abortions instead.

      • lady_black

        I wish that gruesome twosome had had tubal ligations instead.

      • lady_black

        Wait, on further thought I take the first comment back, in part. Susan Smith was just evil. She should have never had children. Andrea Yates is a very sick woman, and will likely suffer for the rest of her life. I actually have a lot of compassion for her, and she probably isn’t a threat to anyone other than herself, so long as she never gets pregnant again. I blame Rusty for what happened to those children. He was told that she should never have another child again by her doctor, because of her profound mental illness. He made her pregnant again and left his obviously mentally ill wife in charge of children. He should be castrated.

    • HeilMary1

      Here’s a nun wannabe who wishes she had an abortion instead:

      http://www . washingtonpost . com/local/crime/woman-studying-to-become-nun-pleads-guilty-to-killing-newborn-at-northeast-convent/2014/02/28/1024b800-a0a1-11e3-b8d8-94577ff66b28_story.html

    • HeilMary1

      Sexually active women don’t owe sex offenders like you personal womb service.

      • cjvg

        “women don’t owe you personal womb service.” Beautifully put, can I borrow it sometime?!

        • HeilMary1

          Knock yourself out, but someone else probably beat me to it. WaPo and Raw Story have great punny headlines. Someone there probably used “womb service” as a header.

          • cjvg

            Yours was the first time I read it so that is who I’m going to contribute it to!

    • goatini

      1. No babies are ever involved in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. All babies, ever, have already been born.

      2. America is not, and will never be, a radical fundamentalist misogynistic theocracy.

      3. “The Handmaid’s Tale” is a dystopian science fiction novel, NOT a US legal policy manual.

      4. Any issues with any of the above? Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan beckon.

    • ansuz

      Abortion regret is not mental illness. It is not significantly different from regretting any other major life decision, and we do not restrict those on the basis of people regretting them.

      • Shan

        I regret some of my past voting record. Let’s repeal the 19th Amendment!

        • ansuz

          *nods seriously*

        • cjvg

          Hush, they will take that seriously, some are already advocating for removing the right to vote from women!

          • Shan

            Seriously? Who’s saying that?!

          • HeilMary1

            The Coultergeist.

          • lady_black

            Oh, you mean Dan?

          • HeilMary1

            Ann Coulter, who committed voter fraud, wants women’s voting rights repealed.

          • L-dan

            If you look around right wing sites long enough you’ll come across them, and there was at least one quote in the past year and a half or so from some actual politician (I think the nutty one in GA who wanted to basically require investigations of all miscarriages). The sentiment is frequently expressed as something along the lines of ‘things going downhill once women got the vote.’

          • Shan

            “If you look around right wing sites long enough”

            Gak, no thanks! Not without some serious monetary compensation to help pay for my therapy bills LOL!

          • lady_black

            The guy in Georgia died. Good riddance.

          • cjvg

            Ironically enough there are a few female republican (legislators) who are in favor (they are explaining their own position in politics as needed to control the damage female voters do) and more self hatting women who are so proud that men want to hear what they say
            http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/female-tea-party-leader-says-women-are-too-diabolical-vote
            http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/Hot_Button_Issues_21/Should_Women_Vote_12661001266.shtml

            And then there is ann coulter (who I’m not certain is actually a female or human for that matter) who has made multiple statements to that effect
            http://www.sodahead.com/living/ann-coulter-im-ok-with-revoking-womens-young-americans-right-to-vote/question-2543317/?page=2

            And of course there are some republican misogynistic teabag who just are chomping on at the bit to revoke women’s right to vote. All so they can go back to making rape legal, and make sure that women do not get uppity making education choices etc. and have plenty of young secretaries without educational prospects to practice it on.
            http://www.care2.com/causes/john-derbyshire.html

            http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/04/19/womens-vote-nevadas-largest-newspaper/

            And one of our supreme court justices that believes that women’s rights (including the right to vote) are not protected under the constitution. I guess in scalia’s opinion women are not humans and as such do not have the basic human rights our constitution guarantees to real humans like men!
            http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/422600/slippery_justice_scalia_says_women%27s_rights_are_not_guaranteed_by_the_constitution

            And then there are the churches like this one who are actually collecting women’s absentee ballots and then have the men fill them out!
            http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=6320
            It is a sorry state of affairs in the land of the brave and the free!

          • Shan

            How…absolutely vomitous. I’m almost sorry for asking.

          • cjvg

            I was worried about that, it is kind of depressing to see how many men and some other women truly hate women just because they are….women!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Landover Baptist is actually a spoof site–I once had a convo with the site’s owner to confirm that. Though it’s awfully hard to tell with so many far right-wing sites that say the same kind of thing.

          • cjvg

            Well at least that is a relieve, although I probably won’t have to look to far to get an actual religious site saying the same thing!

          • lady_black

            Landover Baptist site is absolutely freaking HILARIOUS! My son turned me on to this site years ago. He inherited my bizarre sense of humor. I have to wonder about anyone who can look at it and NOT know it’s a spoof site.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, I know what you mean. Unfortunately, though, there are actually serious sites out there that come pretty close to the parody–I once spent time on demonbuster . com (warning, turn your sound off when you go on that page) and jesus-is-lord . com –they’re both pretty strange, though demonbuster is the strangest.

          • cjvg

            Here are a couple biblical sites and their opinion on women’s (voting) rights. You’ll see why I did not consider landover babtist and obviously fake site. These real religious sites state the exact same thing

            http://www.fathersmanifesto.net/19th.htm

            http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2463008/posts

            http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/BlvcOnline/biblelaw-constitutionalism-pt11.html
            Some gems from that are;”There is no such thing as unalienable rights; there are only God-required responsibilities”

            “Amendment 19: The Curse of Women’s Suffrage”

            ” Amendment 19 and the women’s vote assisted in neutering American men”

            “The source of the family’s authority is the father or husband”

            “to abandon the Biblical law for another law-system is to change gods.” which is punishable by stoning to death the offender as are a whole list of other “crimes” they name. Among those crimes are not being a virgin, a rebellious child etc.

            ” the end result of amendment 19 is social collapse and captivity and a situation of danger and ruin for women, a time of “reproach” or “disgrace,” in which the once independent and feministic women are humbled in their pride and seek the protection and safety of a man. clearly the absence of the man’s authority is productive of social chaos.”

            “A woman “ruling” is an aberration from Yahweh’s patriarchal rule and, at least in principle, a curse to the men”

            “If we are truly interested in restoring the Bible and its morality to our courts, schools, and society, we must demand that Yahweh’s perfect law replace the Constitution.”

            “When coupled with Amendment 14 (which confers citizenship privileges), Amendment 19 inevitably led to women ruling over men as mayors, governors, senators, representatives, speakers of the House, and perhaps presidents. This travesty opposes Yahweh’s patriarchal design”

            “Scripture offers no support for women ruling as judges, elders, priests, or in any other position of authority over man.8 Denying women the right to vote and rule over men does not in any way demean women”

            Although in all fairness they rather completely do away with voting rights and institute a patriarchal (church elder) system of appointment. “How much better it would have been if the framers had precluded elections altogether. Yahweh’s patriarchal system of appointment eliminates all liberal votes. It does not allow for liberals or, for that matter, even conservatives, but only for Biblically qualified ( read conservative to the extreme) men”.

            “one-headed monstrosities (wife-ruled households)”

            And this stuff goes on and on, really there is no divergence between the spoof site and the other religious sites I read!

            Here is even a petition to repeal the 19th amendment
            http://fathersmanifesto.net/19threpeal.htm
            You just can’t make this stuff up (or maybe you can)

          • lady_black

            I think they’re confused. Someone tell them that this is The United States, not some tin pot, banana theocracy. Perhaps they should move elsewhere, because they will never be allowed to build it here.

    • L-dan

      Nope, not immoral. Not murder. Appeal to God is utterly pointless here.

      Nope, Occam’s Razor does not lead to the conclusion you have devised. If one looks at populations of women who have had abortions and sees that those who come to feel regret are overwhelmingly religious, it is something about their religion that would appear to be causing the regret, not the abortion itself.

      The deterrent effect you’re looking for there simply means that even more of those who have abortions (which they will continue to do as they have for thousands of years) will have to deal with shame and regret. Pretty obvious that you aren’t actually hoping to spare women anything, just put them in what you consider to be their proper place and let them suffer if they dare to step out of it.

      How about nope?

    • red_zone

      Legal or not, abortion WILL happen. Regret over it doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision. making it illegal will make it far more dangerous. unless you WANT more women to die. because they will.

      • lady_black

        It gets off on dead women, and so do others of it’s ilk.

    • lady_black

      First, there is no such word as “souly.” If you want to be taken seriously, at least make an effort not to appear ignorant. Second, why do you want to jail women for not wanting to be mothers? Is that in the best interest of, well, anyone?? Third, no legal status of “murder” has EVER been applied to abortion, even when it was illegal. So basically you just invented that out of whole cloth. Fourth, this is a secular nation where your Catholic notions have no more or less validity under the law as that of a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Hindu. You are always free to apply *your* religious notions to *your* self. They mean less than nothing to me.

    • goatini

      I note the word WOMAN is absent from JR’s post. No surprise.

    • Ella Warnock

      Random capitalization doesn’t actually make your point any more valid. It mostly just makes you look unhinged.

    • Göran Lund

      Women regret abortion? Ban abortion
      Women regret getting married? Ban marriage
      Women regret having chosen the wrong education? Ban education for women
      Women regret having the wrong job? Ban women from work
      Women regret regretting? Ban choices for women
      Or simply ban women?
      That is what “pro life” is about.

    • JamieHaman

      Spoken like a man who will never be pregnant. STFU

    • fiona64

      The majority of women feel nothing but relief after abortion.

      However, according to a survey done by Dear Abby, 70 percent of people regret having children. How shall we manage *that*?

  • anja

    Yes. They they should blame and sue the people who actually caused the regret. Churches and radical, extremest, destructive anti-women, anti-choice organizations.

  • Shan

    These are among the people who cause “abortion regret.” The ones who don’t try to help you not have to HAVE one in the first place.

    https: //www. facebook. com/rhrealitycheck/photos/a.102749171737.90216.9432926737/10152222743111738/?type=1&theater

    “I had a patient in the clinic who really did not want an abortion but who had no resources to cover the costs of prenatal care or childbirth. She was single and without insurance coverage but made just enough money to be ineligible for state assistance. She already had outstanding bills at the hospital and with the local ob-gyn practice. No doctor would see her without payment up front.

    We were willing to do the abortion for a reduced rate or for free if necessary. But she really didn’t want an abortion. Once I understood her situation, I went to the phone and called the local ‘crisis pregnancy center.’

    “Hello, this is Dr. Wicklund.”

    Dead silence. I might as well have said I was Satan.

    “Hello?” I said again. “This is Dr. Wicklund.”

    “Hello,” very tentatively, followed by another long silence.

    “I need help with a patient,” I said. She came to me for an abortion, but really doesn’t want one. What she really needs is someone to do her prenatal care and birth for free.”

    “What do you expect us to do?”

    I let that hang for a minute.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Oh wow, that’s just unbelievable. For a place that claims to want to ‘help’ pregnant women, that’s just disgusting.

      • Shan

        It’s not just the people who do the shaming who cause abortion regret, but also the people and policies (thanks My State for not expanding Medicaid coverage) that cause women to choose abortion when they don’t want to have one because abortion pretty much always costs less than giving birth.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Absolutely. It doesn’t make any sense to claim to be ‘pro-life’ and not do anything that would make things financially easier for pregnant women to get medical care.

          • Shan

            Except that’s what people like Von and Scalia seem to think, that it’s perfectly okay for “protesters” to be considered supposedly innocuous “sidewalk counselors” instead of harassers and potential terrorists.

      • Mirable

        PJ was bragging about how CPC’s help women with everything should they ‘ choose life’.

        • lady_black

          She’s a nutty liar.

      • HeilMary1

        Forced birthers really don’t give a hoot if their denying abortions to impoverished, unhealthy women then results in the unattended alley way deaths of the “sl*t” mothers and their “bastard” infants.

    • lady_black

      Oh yeah. That bunch is really helpful, aren’t they?

    • fiona64

      I’m not even remotely surprised. CPCs don’t give two craps about what happens when a woman *wants* to remain pregnant and rear the child; they only want the right* kind of woman to stay pregnant and surrender the child for adoption to the right** kind of family.

      * White
      ** Evangelical Christian or Catholic

    • Theodoor Westerhof

      So, Satan, I mean, Susan Wicklund, herself calls the CPC and the poor folks manning the CPC are perplexed by that, so what?

      • Jennifer Starr

        They seem to be perplexed by the thought of actually helping a pregnant woman, which is something fake clinics don’t normally do.

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          Based on the text, it rather seems they were baffled by an abortion provider asking them for assistance in a non aborting case, if that had been their treatment of the patient it would have cut wood, though. Normal behaviour of quite some CPC’s supports your view of the events, no doubts there, but to a neutral or moderate person, willing to assume the best of all three sides in the described event, it is a very bad example of Pro-Life badness, as being overwhelmed by the unexpected situation of being called by an abortion provider is sufficient to explain the CPC-behaviour described.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Are you calling yourself neutral or moderate? Because the ‘Satan’ remark that you threw in there tends to belie that assertion. Just an observation there.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Quite moderate, and neutral in the sense that US reproductive rights legislation debate is not mine in any sense. Neutral in the sense that the most outspoken defenders of both sides seem to have lost any respect for humanity, truth and eachother. It’s grey vs. grey to me.

          • Mirable

            Explain, please, how pro-choicers have lost all respect for humanity

            What horrible, oppressive things are they doing?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Also, even if the CPC employee was baffled, it seems rather nonsensical to ask “What do you expect us to do?” when the doctor clearly stated what kind of help she was looking for.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            It may seem nonsensical to you, but to me that seems a very sensible question: “Do you want us to come and get the patient right now or what else?”. Now, I do not see this as a demonstation of competence, but considering that we only see one side of the story, not as one of incompetence either.

          • Shan

            I found another site that described more of this story from Dr. Wicklund’s book (This Common Secret):

            “The patient referred to in the quote was given free prenatal care and
            did not have to pay the financial cost of childbirth by a local anti-choice doctor. She would often stop by Dr. Wicklund’s office to let her know how she was doing:

            “He (the doctor) always moans and groans about being tricked into
            [doing this],” she says. “Then he goes off on these tirades against
            abortion.”

          • HeilMary1

            Dr. Anti-Choice probably had to eat $10,000-$50,000 in costs for that one patient. Imagine if he got swamped with all of Dr. Wicklund’s low-income patients! — he’d turn the rest away to go die in the streets!

          • Mirable

            He (the doctor) always moans and groans about being tricked into
            [doing this],

            He should have been happy! The gift of life and all that! Seems that anti-choicers are always unhappy when their pocketbook is affected.

          • cjvg

            Na, they are only unhappy if the choices they are attempting to force on others actually end up to have consequences for them

          • L-dan

            And they’re the ones who are always saying that abortion providers should just do abortions for free if they’re so concerned about how hard access is for poor women.

            I mean…if more ob/gyns worked for free, that would be one barrier less for those who feel they can’t afford to have the baby.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Obviously they can’t provide the prenatal care themselves, not being an actual medical facility, but you would think that a place that claims to want to help pregnant women would be able to provide information about free or low-cost medical care quite easily. Or maybe they don’t really want to help a woman unless they can claim credit for having ‘rescued her from the clutches of ‘the evil babykillers’.

          • cjvg

            So you believe that the abortion provider should be the one who tells the CPC how to do the job they claim they are there to do?!
            Seriously, you do realize she is Satan and can not walk the hallowed walls of a CPC.

            Besides if you represent your self as a medical facility, and are attempting to pass laws mandating that pregnant women have to visit (and pay) one of your facilities before they can exercise their “freely” made medical options, you at the least could make some effort to be professional

          • fiona64

            You are neither neutral nor moderate.

            And, just FYI, the same OB/GYNs who do abortions are the ones who deliver infants. Your dismissive description of Dr. Wicklund as an “abortion provider” is absurd. The woman was clearly trying to get help for an indigent patient — help that the local CPC was unable and/or unwilling to provide, despite the CPCs’ constant protestations to the contrary.

          • HeilMary1

            Dr. Wicklund made a fabulous presentation on C-Span for her book.

            http://www . c-span . org/search/?searchtype=Videos&query=Dr . +Wicklund

          • lady_black

            Yeah…NO. You would think that being contacted by an abortion provider about a patient who is exactly the type of person they claim to want “help” they would be on their best behavior. After all, they don’t want the woman to abort, right? Sadly, I must conclude that this IS their best behavior.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Well, assuming that they are true lifers, as in Pro-Family-Lifers, for the first time in their lives they are contacted by somebody from the other side, in such a situation acting cautiously, which may seem awkward, seems to be the best course of action. And indeed, compared to the CPC descriptions I am used to, this seems very nice and friendly behaviour by CPC standards.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And why would they be acting cautiously? Are they also under the delusion that she’s ‘Satan’?

          • Mirable

            If the CPC had done anything to help this woman, there would have been a happy ending that we would have head about. There was no happy ending. The CPC did NOTHING.

          • Shan

            Actually, I posted about that from another site that had a little more of the story and the book it came from. The woman did get her maternity care get taken care of eventually, but I don’t remember whether the CPC helped her or not.

          • Mirable

            At any rate, it disabuses people of the notion that abortion clinics force abortion on women just to greedily pocket 400$

          • Shan

            “At any rate, it disabuses people of the notion that abortion clinics force abortion on women just to greedily pocket 400$”

            True!

          • cjvg

            So a group that purports to have as their only goal to help women continue their pregnancies is completely thrown of their game when a health care providers refers a patient to them?!

            First thing you do when you are confused or in shock, rely on routines!
            It is very obvious that it NOT a routine for them to actually help women instead of providing lip service only!

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            If that health care provider is a “notorious” abortion provider, quite possible. I mean I accidentally called a pregnancy helpline once, (had to do with reporting an error on their website and all), and that rather threw that lady out of her game too. It is true, she fell back to making sure I had no pregnancy related problems, before she wrote down that there was an issue with wrongly connected links and all (that one had something to offer). A CPC on the other hand is much too often mostly just pretending to be something useful, so they probably just have no routine at all, indeed, but if you are a layman and willing to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, that quote does not start to expose that CPC (mostly because it seems to end with a minute of silence).

          • cjvg

            So you believe it is strange that the referring doctor stays on the line to ensure that they can recover from their “shock” and actually offer help for the patient she is referring?

            Actually that shows how sincere this doctor is to get help for her patient. She was not playing a quick gotcha, she gave them time to recover and offer a meaningful response other then ;” what do you expect us to do”. Unfortunately but predictably that added courtesy was in vain.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Yes, but there the quote ends. It may be my unamerican p.o.v. but the way I see it, that is the point where the doctor should have told them, what she expected them to do. Come and get the patient/ Give useful adresses to the doctor/ Talk to the patient and explain her options/… Not that I expect that, but as a CPC defense it works quite well.

          • cjvg

            “I need help with a patient,” I said. She came to me for an abortion, but really doesn’t want one. What she really needs is someone to do her prenatal care and birth for free.”

            “What do you expect us to do?”

            Yes that sounds like they are totally enthusiastic offering the free care she needs to continue her pregnancy!

            A woman asking for help to continue her pregnancy should not be a totally new perplexing occurrence for a CPC that claims that is all they are there to do.

      • fiona64

        Well, you know, seeing as how the anti-choicers are always claiming that the CPCs are there to “help pregnant women,” I would think that would be self-evident, don’t you?

      • goatini

        Dr Wicklund is a far, far better person than you could ever hope to be.

      • lady_black

        No they are not “perplexed.” No matter who calls the CPC, they are asking for help, and the CPC has no help to offer. Their attitude is “Not my problem.” That’s the main problem with anti-choice scolds. It’s too easy, because it’s always “someone else’s problem.”

        • HeilMary1

          The CPC’s goal is simply to run out women’s clocks for legal, safe and affordable abortions.

      • expect_resistance

        Seriously? Arn’t CPCs supposed to “help pregnant women?” *eyeroll*

      • Mirable

        The CPC should have immediately said ‘we will help her, cuz, praise LIFE’

        Except they didn’t.

      • cjvg

        So that is all you take away from that conversation?
        No concern at all for the pregnant woman who needs help?
        No concern at all that the organizations who pride themselves on providing help to pregnant women callously turn their back when asked to actually provide that help instead?

        Yeah that pretty much says it all about how pro life people like you really are.
        You, CPC’s and the people like you just can not help yourself can you, you keep showing us over and over that you are only pro life if the consequences of your stance fall squarely on the shoulders of another!

        How very telling that the only person actually caring and trying to help the pregnant woman continue her pregnancy was a pro-choice abortion doctor!

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          To explain it:
          I have no sympathy at all for CPC’s. The reason I am not so fond of the quote, is that if you are not already hating CPC’s (which they mostly deserve), it seems a fairly innocent conversation, which does nothing to expose CPC’s for the evil they are. Is that simple enough for you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you called Susan Wicklund ‘Satan’ because…..

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            [["Hello, this is Dr. Wicklund."
            Dead silence. I might as well have said I was Satan.]]
            That’s why, because the quote describes the reaction to her literally as akin to one Satan would have got. Now, taking into account that a certain hostility exists, even in civilized countries, between Pro-Choicers and Pro-Lifers, one can assume that the shock value of that name did just equal “Satan”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Okay, maybe something is getting lost in translation because I’m not actually getting what your point of view is concerning this subject. I did find that anti-abortion quote which appeared to be attributed to you, but if you want to clarify I’m willing to listen.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Nah, I just think that abortion should be free (as in TAX PAID), safe, well regulated, inspected and rare. My preference is for the Lifers, but only as as long as they don’t try to change abortion laws (cann’t stand that) and do not get themselves involved with the adoption industry :)
            In my experience Choicers are quite often presenting themselves as totally lacking any empathy and understanding for lifers. To be honest, Lifers themselves quite often suffer from the same problem too, granted, but having a “notorious” abortion provider call a probably small scale pro-life thingy, could indeed be perceived by them as having to dance with the devil, combining that. As such the CPC people did not do much wrong, or anything at all, but the quote ends well before the end of the story, so it does not describe an unwillingness or inability to help, just a slow conversation start in an unexpected situation, and as such the quote hardly contributes to the discussion at hand, AND gives a much better press to “a CPC” than they usually deserve.

          • Mirable

            It’s hard to have empathy for people who tell you, over and over again, that if you are born with a uterus, and happen to find yourself pregnant, be it through consensual sex or rape, that you are a

            1) selfish s1ut (if you abort)

            2) that nature and/or god made you with one thing in mind – to have babies

            3) go on and on and on about the sanctity of life, and how the right to life trumps bodily autonomy (but only in the case of pregnancy cuz pregnancy is special)

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            That’s a fair point. Nevertheless, empathy with the enemy, helps to plan the road to victory or a good enough compromise.

          • Mirable

            Anti choicers, just like religious zealots, do not believe in conpromise.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Sure, but as long as you are not behaving in a more reasonable way than them, they can claim that as well.

          • King Rat

            And how exactly are pro who pro choicers behaving unreasonably? Asking for abortion at birth?

          • ansuz

            Pro-lifers can — and do — claim that anyway. And Roe vs. Wade was a compromise, but there are very few pro-chociers trying to expand the right to abortion from where Roe drew the line.

          • cjvg

            There is nothing innocent about that reply from an organization that loudly, publically and very often proclaims that; their only mission is ensuring that women have the resources needed not to abort.
            For a CPC to reply with ;”what do you expect us to do” when asked to do what they claim their only reason for existence is. Basically their bluff was called and they folded spectacularly!

    • expect_resistance

      Thanks for posting. That’s awesome.

    • Ella Warnock

      Here’s what someone on Facebooger had to say about this story. It’s spot-on.

      Jill Elswick wrote:

      This story suggests the crisis pregnancy center, and pro-life protesters,
      are in it for the drama. They are in it to be heroes in their own mind
      – the ones who made a woman “come to Jesus” and change her mind. The
      ones who “won souls for Christ.” Not the ones to provide something as mundane as prenatal care and birth assistance to a woman who already made up her mind. There is no drama, no reward, no payoff in that. It is a drain on resources. It’s not part of the battle.

      • Shan

        Ah, yes. I think I remember that now. Very to the point.

      • HeilMary1

        Histrionic self-canonized sainthood is what Munchausen by Proxy abusers are all about. Actually rescuing people, not so much.

      • Mirable

        It’s like the people who think they are fighting demons. Not everyone can be ‘great’. Not everyone can make a difference. We all can’t be President. However…if we can do something amazing! Like say banish demons back to hell! Or save a life! We can all be heroes!!

  • five_by_five

    Amanda Marcotte is trying to shame the women who have made the CHOICE to feel bad about getting an abortion.

    Not very “pro-choice” Amanda. Kinda lame actually. In Amanda’s world, abortions are just full of sunshine and rainbows and beauty. Nothing to be concerned about there.

    • lady_black

      No. Actually, she’s shaming those who make a hobby out of encouraging women to feel bad about getting an abortion. I’ve been to some of those supposed “healing” sites like “Silent No More.” They are full of nonsensical stories written by women who were told they should feel absolutely TERRIBLE about their “contraceptive abortions” and they do. Never mind that anyone with two brain cells rattling around knows that Catholic priests are not fonts of good medical advice. They pose as authorities, and attempt to shame women for “abortions” that never happened. These stories, to the very last of them, are written by unwitting (and none too bright) victims of misogynistic religionists. They deserve everything Amanda throws at them and more. They disgust me, the lot of them, and they are definitely not there to “help.”

      • expect_resistance

        Five didn’t read the article. It just jumps into the discussion with unfounded assumptions and the shaming and blaming routine.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Because, like all Fetus Freaks, you have a special clairvoyant ability to read Marcotte’s mind and emotions. It is a miracle.

      • expect_resistance

        Delusional clairvoyant ability seems to be a side-effect of the “Fetus Freaks.”

    • expect_resistance

      Again you didn’t read the article did you. You just jumped in with stupid unfounded comments.

      From the article:

      “I have no doubt that these women really are suffering from shame and guilt. But that is because some of the people in their lives—husbands, parents, counselors, church leaders—have shamed and guilt-tripped them, not because of some doctor long ago who provided the help they asked for at the time.

      If Iowa legislators are really concerned about the suffering that stems from shame over abortion, why not make it easier to sue the people doing the shaming?”

    • HeilMary1

      Are you here on cigarette break from your pedophile priest pity party convention?

      • cjvg

        Funny

    • HeilMary1

      You deserve to be sued for shaming women for being women.

  • red_zone

    Regret is a natural reaction; it’s basically us looking back and believing the circumstances were much better than they really were. As bad as these women may feel NOW, how many of them would be able to honestly say they would have been better off giving birth to a child they never planned or even wanted? Who benefits from that?

    Erin was in college when she got her abortion. What about her was ‘selfish’ and ‘prideful’ that made her decide to get an abortion? Would she have been able to complete college if she had a child at that time in her life? Would she have gotten support from her family or other sources? Would she have felt compelled to stay with the man who impregnated her to begin with, at the very least could she have expected any support from him? WHO, in any of those scenarios would have benefited in the long term? Could the life she have now have even been remotely possible if she brought a child into the world at that fragile time in her life?

    I’m not saying feeling badly about getting an abortion is wrong, but how many of them, at the time they decided to get one, was in a position where they would have been willing and able to give birth and raise a child, most likely on their own? How many of them can honestly say they would have gotten all the support they could have needed? How many of them would regret becoming a parent at that time in their lives? How is making these women feel guilt over it actually ‘healing’? It only rips open their wounds and causes them to be infected with the words and feelings of the arrogant and self-righteous who were not present at the time of the woman’s decision to abort, who were NOT living through those circumstances and make judgments based entirely on how THEY FEEL about abortion. It’s rarely, if ever about the woman herself, her life and situation that brought her into that position where she had to choose.

    Seriously, I would LOVE for someone to get these women, sit them down and ask them these questions and see what their answers were. Question is, would they be HONEST with their answers or would they continue the self-flagellation to appease the selfish whims of others?

    • five_by_five

      “Who benefits from that?”

      The child who isn’t dead.

      • red_zone

        You mean, the child that would be born into a situation out of it’s control, where the mother is ill-equipped and unable to deal with it? The child who is, more often than not, born to a woman who never planned them or even really wanted them? Who will stand a greater chance of being born into poverty and the mother, who is most often struggling just to care for herself, will now be expected to care for another actual human being and may not have all the support they need in order to raise said child?

        The child who will be at a greatly increased chance of being abused and neglected, of going hungry? Of falling through the cracks of a system that just doesn’t give a damn? THAT child?

        Yeah… if you can prove that isn’t a regular occurrence, go ahead. if you can offer assurances that these women and their unborn will be cared for and receive all the care they need, please do so.

        Otherwise, you’re blowing smoke and feeding yourself the pretty lie that makes YOU feel better and NOT facing the ugly truth that is reality for these women.

        • Jennifer Starr

          She doesn’t care about women. Or children and babies for that matter. Like most pro-liars, she thinks that once the kid is born, they’re on their own.

        • five_by_five

          So you’re saying that most all people that have abortions would be terrible parents?

          But you’re right, if we shouldn’t want children to be born to experience the things you mentioned, we should just forcibly sterilize poor people and be done with it. After all, only rich people should be allowed to breed, right?

          • lady_black

            NO. Some women have abortions because it’s necessary to their own health and/or development, and some simply know that at this point in time, they don’t have the tools to be good parents. Sometimes it’s poverty. Sometimes it’s economic and literal dependence upon others who need to be taken into consideration. Those don’t render a person forever poor, nor permanently lacking in the ability to parent. I know that most 17 year olds are not parent material. They are still in high school, have no marketable skills and have no right to visit their circumstances upon those on whom they rely for support. The same 17 year old can go on to have children in her thirties, when she has the maturity to be a great mother. Or she can decide she never wants to have children, ever. Either is a valid choice. I have no issues with women who decide when, how many and with whom they will have children, if at all.

          • expect_resistance

            Well said.

          • red_zone

            I’m saying that not every woman who becomes pregnant is ready, able or willing to have a child and should NOT be forced to.

            ‘But you’re right, if we shouldn’t want children to be born to experience
            the things you mentioned, we should just forcibly sterilize poor people
            and be done with it. After all, only rich people should be allowed to
            breed, right?’

            YOU are making that claim. I’m saying that people who are unable to provide financially, emotionally, physically for a child should NOT be forced to have one if they feel they are ill-prepared. Rich or poor, the choice belongs to THEM and them alone.

        • expect_resistance

          Ignore 5×5. It’s an anti-choice/forced-birther troll who engages in shaming and blaming women. He/she it has been busted lying over and over again. 5×5 doesn’t engage in meaningful discussion.

          • Mirable

            He/she it

            I prefer sh/it :P

            I reserve gender neutral pronouns for people who aren’t losers.

          • Shan

            That’s funny. I didn’t notice it for a while until I had to take a closer look at why I found it so appealing.

      • L-dan

        So shaming all women everywhere into not getting abortions, no matter their circumstances is better than the death of barely developed, unfeeling fetuses? Good to know you think increasing misery is the moral way to go.

      • Shan

        Since the idea of potential children seems to excite you so much, don’t forget about all the ones who get born later who otherwise wouldn’t have existed if their mother hadn’t had an abortion previously.

        • five_by_five

          Oh, so abortion magically creates life.

          It’s like bizarro world.

          • Shan

            Yes, a bizarro world where women give birth whenever they WANT to, to exactly as many children as they want to have. Imagine that.

          • five_by_five

            I can think of quite a few ways women can choose to not get pregnant in the first place.

            Can you?

          • Shan

            Of course. But just think of all the poor little children they’re preventing from being born! The horror of it!

          • five_by_five

            I hate to point out the difference between preventing ovulation or fertilization and ripping a fetus out of a uterus to you…so go look it up on wikipedia or something.

            But, let me guess, you’ll just claim a 16-week old fetus is a “clump of cells” or some other pro-abortion bullshit.

          • Shan

            No need for any of that. I was just laughing at your overwrought pearl-clutching.

          • lady_black

            It’s not “a uterus,” and it certainly isn’t YOUR uterus. It’s part of the body of a woman who matters much more than the contents of her uterus at any given point in time. A 16 week fetus is not viable without it’s external life-support system, which is a woman who is not obligated to serve as a life-support system. Your dreams of enslaving women to fetuses fail.

          • five_by_five

            The fetus isn’t inside the uterus?

            Tell us more o wise one.

          • Mirable

            She made it pretty clear, dumbass.

          • lady_black

            The uterus is HERS. Not yours. She isn’t obliged to keep a fetus intact. PERIOD.

          • five_by_five

            You’re right. Nobody is obliged to do anything.

            Some people are responsible and get their abortions done without hurting other people. Others, however, wait too fucking long and get abortions at 20+ weeks. And that’s too fucking close to viability for me to excuse a mom throwing away a fetus due to convenience.

            So, yes, Ms. Black, the uterus is hers. It’s also a responsibility to take care of the living things that one may choose to invite into their own uterus.

          • red_zone

            And just HOW OFTEN do those 20+ abortions happen? When it’s far more dangerous for the woman? As far as I’ve seen, those late-term abortions occur ONLY when the fetus is not going to survive outside the womb or the woman’s life is in danger.

            What realistic, believable reason would ANY woman deliberately wait that long to decide on an abortion?

          • Mirable

            close but no cigar

          • HeilMary1

            No one invites organ-shredding aliens into their bodies and waits fives months for a $30,000 surgical removal just to be capricious. What working poor American would blow $30,000 on an “elective” abortion of a deadly non-viable fetus when she could have more safely removed it for $500 months sooner? What part of scary $30,000 late term abortions makes you think women whimsically prefer them over simple $500 ones? Women who can’t afford day care, college, reliable cars, decent housing, disability treatments or vacations certainly aren’t going to skip $500 abortions when they can really ruin their finances with $30,000 ones. Just because you’re really stupid doesn’t mean they are as stupid as you.

          • L-dan

            Oh please, like you’d give up your idiotic trolling if abortions past 20 weeks were made illegal. You’ve been whining upthread about 16 weeks. If that were illegal, you’d be clutching your pearls about heartbeats.

            You don’t actually give a shit about the fetus. You’ve never shown the slightest inclination to care about anything other than focusing on what bad people those who get abortions are. They’re bad because they rip apart 20 week fetuses. They’re irresponsible for ‘inviting’ a zygote to implant. They’re immoral for considering a pregnancy to be an alien invader. You’re all ready to judge everyone, because hot damn, *you* know best…somehow…with zero credentials for that position.

            Abortions do not hurt ‘other people’ in the way you claim. At 20 weeks, a fetus isn’t remotely viable, nor does it feel anything. Nor does the fact that it’s too close to viability for you mean that you get any say in the decision.

            Additionally you whine about 20 week abortions and how you just can’t excuse throwing away the fetus due to convenience, while ignoring that most abortions at this stage are of wanted pregnancies that have gone wrong in some fashion, not convenience. So bans at this point cause far more damage to pregnant people than abortions do to unthinking, unfeeling fetuses.

            Predictable kiddie troll is predictable.

          • five_by_five

            TL:DR

            Sorry, I don’t read posts of people who are too dumb to use contraception correctly.

          • lady_black

            Nope. 20 weeks is not close to viability in a normal pregnancy. In one where the fetus will never be viable, viability is never an issue. And I would definitely NOT put aborting a doomed pregnancy into the category of “convenience.”

          • L-dan

            Reply to post in moderation below:

            Really? I’ve been running rings around you for weeks, kid. So I suppose you’re even less bright than you seem to think I am.

            I mean, you’re not even able to get your go-to insult correct for your trolling. It’s like you’re not even trying anymore.

          • ansuz

            In my case, abortion of a 16-week-old fetus would be the surgical (or whichever method) removal of a dangerous alien invader from my abdomen.
            (In my body, I get to make the value judgments.)

          • expect_resistance

            Well said!

          • five_by_five

            You mean the “alien invader” that you invited in? Or were you too stupid to realize that having sex can result in a pregnancy?

          • Mirable

            If you don’t want it there, it’s an invader. Period.

          • five_by_five

            Some people don’t want their children there. Can they just call them “invaders” and destroy them?

          • ansuz

            Once they’re born, they are physically autonomous, and someone else can look after them.

          • Mirable

            If something is *inside your body* and you do not want it there, it is an invader.

          • ansuz

            Do you think you could please answer the question?

            This one:
            “But are you saying that I have no right to label something that’s in my body when I don’t want it to be an ‘alien invader’, or are you saying that regardless of how I feel about it, having sex means I have to allow the zef to use my body?”

            From this comment of mine:
            /whos-blame-woman-experiences-abortion-regret/#comment-1271804808

          • expect_resistance

            That’s the other thing 5×5 does. Evades answering a question (sometimes for days) and then says, “What question?” Selective memory or trollish. Whatever the reason annoying.

          • Mirable

            Then let’s keep asking.

          • ansuz

            I’ll keep asking, and keep linking the specific question I mean.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, keep five’s feet to the fire. :)

          • Mirable

            Answer ansuz’ question, please.

          • cjvg

            Already born, this inane “argument ” has been addressed

          • Mirable

            Do you think you could please answer the question?

            This one:
            “But are you saying that I have no right to label
            something that’s in my body when I don’t want it to be an ‘alien
            invader’, or are you saying that regardless of how I feel about it,
            having sex means I have to allow the zef to use my body?”

            From this comment of mine:
            /whos-blame-woman-experiences-abortion-regret/#comment-1271804808

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            If they are fetuses, yes.

          • HeilMary1

            By his sick logic, breathing in cold germs and second hand smoke is a direct invite for colds and lung cancer.

          • ansuz

            Good job making generalizations about people. That’ll win hearts and minds for your cause.

            But are you saying that I have no right to label something that’s in my body when I don’t want it to be an ‘alien invader’, or are you saying that regardless of how I feel about it, having sex means I have to allow the zef to use my body?

          • HeilMary1

            Do you oppose people shooting intruders if they forget to lock their doors and windows? After all, by your logic, forgetting = invites.

          • lady_black

            I hung up the ‘no fetus welcome’ sign when I was 26. If you think I stopped having sex, you’re even dumber than I already thought you were.

          • five_by_five

            I wasn’t addressing you, was I? So fuck off.
            ….in the parlance of HeilMary1.

          • expect_resistance

            Shut up you know-nothing lying troll.

          • L-dan

            Having sex is a far cry from inviting a pregnancy. It’s not like a pregnancy happens every time. Most times sex =/= pregnancy, in fact.

            Or are you also a fan of such arguments as ‘there’s raw egg in cookie dough, so you invited that salmonella in and now you’re stuck with it.’

            Or ‘smoking totally causes cancer, and you knew that. So it’s immoral to cut that tumor out of your lung. You invited it in, and it’s a separate and distinct entity now (possibly even with DNA a bit different from your own, depending on just how the cancer got started).

            Beyond all that, how would an ‘invite’ equal ‘has a right to use my body as long as it likes?’ It’s not like inviting someone up to my room gives them that right either, or even into my bed…or wow, even having sex with someone doesn’t give them the right to have sex with me whenever they want. What, precisely is the moment that I give up my rights to decide whether or not someone else gets access to my body?

          • Mirable

            It isn’t a clump of cells, however, it’s a mindless body incapable of surviving on it’s own.

          • five_by_five

            You’re right. I think mother’s should be able to destroy their offspring until they can support themselves. Like up until the age of 3-4 or so. Or maybe until they are adults. Yeah..18. Mother’s should be able to destroy those evil “invaders” until they are 18. Yippie.

          • cjvg

            Troll.
            Remember that word we keep telling you; BORN
            As in human and civil rights are bestowed upon birth.!

          • Mirable

            Purposely obtuse.

          • HeilMary1

            There is a big bodily threat difference between born children and unborn fetuses, dumbass. Cats and infants are very cute, but I don’t want either one clawing around inside me.

          • fiona64

            I’ll be sending your mommy down to the basement any second now …

          • Shan

            “You’re right. I think mother’s [sic] should be able to destroy their offspring until they can support themselves.”

            The problem with this frequently-made strawman argument is that it presumes that abortion rights are all about not wanting to raise a child when, in fact, they’re about not having to LEGALLY be required to remain pregnant and give birth in the first place.

            Now, you’re obviously not trying to make any argument for women being able to legally be allowed to murder their already-born children because that would pretty much be insane and everybody knows that, including you, which is why you brought it up. So I’d like to see you try a little intellectual exercise on for size and see if you can post reasonable and rational arguments regarding the *legality* of abortion rights, for and against.

            Otherwise, you’re just another one out there screeching “ABORTION IS MURDER, YOU IRRESPONSIBLE PRO-ABORT WHORES!” And honestly, we’ve heard it all before, over and over here online and out in front of the clinics and it’s tiresome and useless. But you’re presumably over here at RH Reality Check – a site devoted to Reproductive and Sexual Health & Justice – on purpose. So, considering the audience you know you have here, what do you think this “oh, so you think you should be able to murder anyone under 18″ crap looks like other than blatant trolling?

            Seriously. That kind of interaction is on the same level as the clinic protesters who throw red-painted doll-parts at the people going into the facilities. It’s not meant to change hearts and minds or actually HELP anybody NOT have an abortion. It just goes straight to the point of Marcotte’s article about who is attempting the shaming and guilt-inducing and why they’re doing it.

          • ansuz

            ALL THE UPVOTES

          • Shan

            No, save ‘em. I’m sure there’s better stuff out there. ;-)

          • L-dan

            Nah, that was upvote-worthy as anything. :)

          • Mirable

            Which is why five ignores me whenever I say well, yes, we here are all in favour of murdering everyone under the age of 18 for funsies.

            I mean, if sh/it is serious about how the PC movement wants to murder everyone under the age of 18, then surely five would acknowledge my comments, right? Rather than ignore them because sh/it knows I am mocking sh/its idiotic strawman argument.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sh/it will probably go whining to Breitbart again.

          • ansuz

            I’m still waiting for an answer to my question:

            Are you saying that I have no right to label something that’s in my body when I don’t want it to be an ‘alien invader’, or are you saying that regardless of how I feel about it, having sex means I have to allow the zef to use my body?

          • five_by_five

            Having sex has consequences. Are you too stupid to realize what those consequences are?

          • ansuz

            If I answer your question, will you answer mine?

          • Mirable

            Answer ansuz’ question. The fact that you refuse to answer just gives the impression that you are not debating in good faith. And you would not want us to think that you are an intellectually dishonest lightweight who ignores the tough questions because sh/it does not have an answer that isn’t blatant trolling?

          • HeilMary1

            Women are just clumps of cells to you, troll.

      • lady_black

        It’s not a child. All children, ever, have been born.

        • five_by_five

          Reread the comment above mine idiot. Red zone was writing about a mother giving BIRTH.

          Context. What is that?

          • lady_black

            The failure to understand context is yours, and the “birth” was a hypothetical when applied to a college age woman who chooses to abort.

      • Mirable

        non-existence isn’t a bad thing, you know

      • HeilMary1

        So being raped by priests and trafficked for deadly, disabling medical experiments is better than being aborted? Wish I had been aborted!

    • Theodoor Westerhof

      It seems that you do not want to ask questions, but that you want to beat (metaphorically) women in submission to the greatness of the abortion, or with other words to appease your selfish whims.

      • fiona64

        You know, you are just one more proof of how easy it is to be an anti-choice man. You will never be faced with a pregnancy, wanted or unwanted. It will never be your life and limb at risk due to gestational complications. And yet, you pronounce women “selfish” if they make a health care decision of which you disapprove.

        Let me tell you something, from the perspective of a woman whose pregnancy almost killed her: there is NOTHING more selfish than a big-mouthed man dictating the medical decisions of women he’s never even *met.*

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          What the heck are you talking about,? I did not pronouncewomen “selfish” if they make a health care decision of which I would disapprove,in yourimagination. I was reacting to redzone:

          “I would LOVE for someone to get these women, sit them down and ask them these questions and see what their answers were. Question is, would they be HONEST with their answers or would they continue the self-flagellation to appease the selfish whims of others?”

          If people want to regret things in the past, let them. And stop falsely accusing others of things they haven’t done, because you do not read the tekst in context.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually you did say that on another message board a couple of years ago–that abortion is a black and white issue and that women were selfish for not ‘accepting God’s gift’.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Jennifer, I did not do that at all. That post about black and white, and selfish women exists, but it actually has my name in front of it because it was actually TO me, not BY me. I had written something about abortion being less pain inflicting than adoption, but being moderate I had added that that did not mean that abortion was OK, but that it did mean that (domestic infant) adoption, is most certainly not OK.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

          • expect_resistance

            Not that I need to explain anything to you but I don’t regret my abortion at all! If I were to answer red-zones’s questions I would NOT have been better off giving birth. My life has been complicated and difficult enough the way it is, and adding a child to the equation would make it unbearable.

          • five_by_five

            If you can’t deal with a child, maybe you should, ya know, stop breeding.

            As HeliMary likes to say “Keep your pants zipped.”

          • Mirable

            Or get an abortion!

          • five_by_five

            Yes, an abortion is a viable alternative to properly using contraception because it’s sooo much easier and cheaper and less traumatic…not to mention that abortions are fun fun fun.

            Obviously.

          • Mirable

            Purposely obtuse.

          • expect_resistance

            We all know you’re and expert at using birth control pills since you’ve been on them for 20 years as a high school student. *eyeroll*

          • L-dan

            Not sure how you’re reading the thread as promoting abortion instead of contraception.

            As noted below, you’re being purposely obtuse.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s her only line–s/he’s a troll with a very limited repertoire.

          • L-dan

            Well yeah. Pretty sure the next line is about how my ‘irresponsibly’ gettin’ pregnant and havin’ an evil abortion means that I’m promoting abortion just by posting. Or something…because that needs to get worked in there at every opportunity.

          • expect_resistance

            You can have sex and not breed stupid. And you can take your advice and shove it.

          • HeilMary1

            Only you pompous mother killers and kiddie diddlers should keep your pants zipped. I support safe sex and wish my abusive mom aborted me instead.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. You be abstinent. I will save France.
            What am I saying? We all know you have no choice about it.

          • fiona64

            I did read the text (note correct spelling) in context.

            You said this: but that you want to beat (metaphorically) women in submission to the greatness of the abortion, or with other words to appease your selfish whims.

            So, yes, I was responding *to you* and *about your words.* Do try to keep up.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            FYI, I know how to spell text, my spelling checker however doesn’t, it’s stuck on a non-English vocabulary..

            Try to read:

            “you want to beat (metaphorically) women in submission to the greatness of the abortion,”
            [This means: "you" want to take the freedom to regret, i.e. to feel
            bad about an abortion in the past]
            “or with other words”
            [This means: This is the same as]
            “to appease your selfish whims.”
            [This really means: to give "Your" selfishly desired denial of regret is morally equivalent to the alleged induction of regret ]
            I was not talking about health care decisions, I was talking about the freedom to feel about those as you do, be it good or bad.

          • fiona64

            Please cite where anyone is trying to stop someone from having emotions, good or bad. I’ll wait.

          • expect_resistance

            In the end it’s none of your business why anyone makes a decision, especially a personal medical decision. No one owes you an explanation. You are not entitiled to any explanation. Do you explain your medical decisions to anyone but yourself and your doctor? Why do you care why a woman has an abortion? It’s none of your business.

          • Shan

            Wait for it. Here comes the strawman “Oh, so you agree that it’s none of your business if your neighbor strangles their kindergartener?”

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            Do you see a doctor for your starting of completely nonsensical rants? It might be an indication that something is seriously wrong with you. I did not ask for any explanation about any medical decision, so why are you ranting about that to me?
            I am not talking about medical decisions, I defend the freedom to feel about those decisions the way one feels about them. .
            And why do I care why a woman has an abortion? The mere goodness of my heart, so I think it horrible that one would make a reproductive choice one would not have made if one had been better, as in more fully and less biased, informed.

          • expect_resistance

            No not a rant but you can believe whatever you make up in your head. Again, none of your business. I doubt your sincerity in your quest to “change hearts and minds.”

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            What quest to change hearts and minds?

      • Jennifer Starr

        Yep, that’s what we want to do all right–metaphorically beat women into submission instead of letting them make up their own minds and freely make choices about their own pregnancies. I think you’re a mite confused there, Teddy.

        • fiona64

          I have a delightful 7-month-old Balinese kitten named Teddy. :-)

          • expect_resistance

            Sounds very cute. Is it talkative? I love the blue-eyed Siamese cats. I have a 9-month old tabby orange boy and a 2-year old calico.

          • fiona64

            Balinese are generally not as chatty as Siamese, but Teddy is quite a talker. He is also pretty profoundly cross-eyed (as you know, that’s pretty common with Meesers). Thus, he has a delightfully puzzled expression all of the time (he’s a flame point, BTW). He’s the youngest of five kitties (the eldest is an old Grandpa Kitty at 14 years), and has his own doggie (who is 13 years old now).

          • ansuz

            Pics! Pics! Pics! Kitty pics!

            (Or not, if you don’t have any/don’t feel comfortable sharing/don’t feel like it. I just like seeing kitty pics.)

          • fiona64
          • ansuz

            D’aawww, kitty. <3
            He's gorgeous.

          • fiona64

            Thank you! He was adopted from the shelter where I volunteer. He’s a good boy.

          • Shan

            I’ve got a flame-point, too, but he’s not cross-eyed. He was a rescue from “the wild” and seems more like a dog than a cat sometimes. He greets everyone who comes to the door, follows us around everywhere and loves to go for rides in the car. Thankfully, he doesn’t talk much!

          • Mirable

            What is a flame point?

          • fiona64

            You know how most Siamese cats have dark faces, tails and feet with a kind of beige body? Flame point cats have orange faces, tails and feet with white bodies.

          • Mirable
          • Mirable

            What an interesting face. You are lucky to have a talker. Mine has a very low voice so she has to annoy me through actions instead.

          • lady_black

            I have several Siamese and used to breed them. All point colors including flames and torties. The last one I got, I got solely as a pet. She’s a seal point and she hardly talks at all. She was also a one cat wrecking crew as a kitten.

          • Mirable

            I thought my Aby was bad. My boyfriend’s sister just got a new kitty and he is a one kitty wrecking crew. He literally will NOT stop as long as he is out of his crate. Somehow the littler fucker managed to spray kitty poo 5 feet up the walls! And he spent HOURS playing with a measuring cup in the bathroom. He will also stick his arms under the door and patiently wait for someone to walk by so he can try to grab their feets.

            My boyfriend spent a whole hour playing with the little guy, and even though exhausted, Pumpkin would not stop! My bf suffers from ADD, so I told him that he should start huffing Pumpkin :P

            Apparently the orange ones are the most potent:

            http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kitten_Huffing

          • Shan

            How do they get on with puppies?

          • lady_black

            I haven’t had puppies, but if they’re raised together, there’s no reason they shouldn’t get along.

          • Shan

            Eh, my Sam is already 2 now. I just wondered because my son wants a puppy but I’m not really excited about the idea. Plus, we have an older cat who’s already like “GET OFF MY LAWN!” with Sam. He’d be seriously pissed off if we got a puppy.

          • expect_resistance

            Aw, I’m in love. Beautiful boy.

          • Ella Warnock

            What a great face he has.

          • lady_black

            What a cutie.

          • Jennifer Starr

            He’s just gorgeous

          • expect_resistance

            I love chatty cats. My chatty cat died a few years ago at the ripe old age of 22. He was an orange and white male cat who talked non-stop. I miss our weird conversations.

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          Not confused at all, just not that used to Americans.

      • cjvg

        Do you know what the word CHOICE means?
        The people here are in favor of letting the woman who actually has to live with the consequences make her OWN CHOICES.

        This might mean she choses an abortion or choses to carry to term and keep the child or choses to adopt the child out.

        The pro-choice faction does NOT EVER promote the removal of personal medical choices out of the hands of the only ones who are affected by said choice!

        That filthy and tyrannical objective is the purview of yours and your ilk alone!
        Do not try to falsely conflagrate your own tyrannical and amoral stance, with those who are diametrically opposed to such inhumane attempt at ownership of women’s bodies by unrelated and uncaring third parties like you!

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          What stance of mine are you calling tyrannical and amoral? The one that all abortions should be charged to the state?

      • HeilMary1

        You want to beat women into obstetric incontinence, bankruptcy, divorce, homelessness, and death.

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          What the heck has that to do with the freedom to regret an abortion?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t see where anyone is stopping someone’s freedom to regret anything. But just because some women regret it doesn’t mean that all women will, and it doesn’t mean that it should be banned.

          • HeilMary1

            Does clueless you ever wonder why millions of women regret having kids?

          • expect_resistance

            I’m sure that didn’t cross his mind.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            No, because that’s no mystery to me.

      • red_zone

        Didn’t i just say that women who feel this regret after so long and being surrounded by people who MIGHT make them feel guilty for their past choice, should be asked serious questions like the ones I posed and to put everything into perspective? heaven FORBID i want them for take an honest look at how they were THEN and ask themselves, ‘Could I REALLY have gone through with that pregnancy? Could i REALLY have supported a baby at that time?

        I never called abortion ‘great’. It’s a reality that isn’t going to go away and women should not be MADE to feel guilty about their choice or, if they do, be given real support and not demonized.

        YOU are the one who seems to want these women subjected to YOUR selfish whims to do what YOU WANT instead of doing what is right for THEM.

        • Theodoor Westerhof

          Yes, that is exactly what you did say, and to me that sounds much too similar to “pro-adoption” talk, not to react. The problem is that your questions suggest the answer is most certainly not “Of course, I could.”, which looking back, quite often turns out to be the case, yes, sacrifices would have been made, and life would have gone along another path, and so on…
          If the gravida had no choice but abortion, shouldn’t choicers be the ones willing to change that?
          You may not have used the word “great” in connection with abortion, but if the questions you want to ask “REALLY” are only rhetorical questions, the defense of abortion is your whole message.
          Who is that “YOU” you are talking about? I am not opposing reproductive rights, I am defending the right to feel bad about things in hindsight, which you seem to be attacking. Really, I am all in favour of some serious research, but your suggested CPC-style counseling you can put where the sun doesn’t shine.

          • red_zone

            She says that, but would that REALLY have been so, or would it have been a case of ‘grass is always greener on the other side’? As in, would she be looking at how her life was at that time as it was, or would she be putting on rose-colored lenses? Would it have been in her and any child’s best interest if she ended up having to drop out of college, got a job and effectively, had to become dependent on the system to provide for her and her unplanned child? That’s what needs to be asked; if they are really looking at how their lives really were vs. how they wanted them to be.

            Of COURSE it’s okay they feel bad! There are women who do and I would never deny that they were wrong to feel that way. My problem lies with the DEMAND and EXPECTATION that they feel guilt and if they don’t, they’re somehow ‘horrible’ people. I personally think the reason they feel such guilt is largely because their circumstances weren’t, in their views, ideal environments for having and raising a child. I think that’s the thing that’s really bothering them; that their lives weren’t ‘ideal’ for starting a family at that point in their lives and that they were, it appears, used and abandoned by men they had trusted and given their all to and felt they had no one else they could turn to for help..

            Hindsight is 20/20. We make the best decisions we can with what we have and know. Could they have made different decisions? Certainly. DID they have all the information available to them? Would they have gotten the support they would have needed? Who knows? They clearly didn’t think they could.The fact remains they made the decisions THEY BELIEVED were right for them at the time. That isn’t wrong and it doesn’t make them bad. It makes them human. They feel guilty about it is one thing. Should they be SHAMED into feeling guilt? Never. That’s what this is largely about.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            OK, we don’t think that differently, however to me you seemed like somebody trying to shame somebody out of guilt. The minimal assumption however, should be that a woman’s reaction to an “artificial miscarriage” can be the same as to a natural one, if not worse, so grief, regret, (misplaced) guilt and mourning should all be acknowledged as possible, natural results, which is not to say that they do always occur, and even less that they SHOULD occur.
            People just aren’t always that subtle as they would have liked to be in hindsight, after all.

          • red_zone

            I wouldn’t be so crass as to do that. I would want to encourage them-in healthy ways-to think objectively and as honestly as possible about the course their lives were on and address the factors that lead them to abort. Claims like saying you were ‘selfish and prideful’ are not really honest objective and don’t really focus on what your actual circumstances were and if you would have been able to realistically safely carry a pregnancy to term, have a child and raise it or put it up for adoption.

            How many of these women would be able to say that yes, they had all those resources, but chose not to carry to term because of some personal issue? We can’t know and won’t know because they have been conditioned to believe if they don’t feel guilt, they’re horrible and if they do, they’ll somehow ‘better’.

          • Theodoor Westerhof

            The way you described seems to be extremely unhealthy to me. I mean a realistic, objective analysis of reasons to abort and the long term views on the abortion would be rather useful, but I doubt that such a “masculine” approach would have any therapeutic effect.
            If you analyze that a lack of resources was a good reason for the abortion, you really think that that will help?
            Grief, feelings of guilt, mourning need to be respected, not dismissed with a “You were too poor, so its good you aborted that bastard zef, shut up”-treatment, which may not be what you intend, but what you seem to suggest. After loss, guilt is most often not rational, and trying to use rational analysis as an antidote, seems thus highly irrational.

            Which is not to say that making post-abortive women feel badly, is something pro-lifers should be allowed to do.

          • ansuz

            “Masculine”?
            That’s an odd choice of words.

          • goatini

            You know, because ladies’ minds are incapable of “masculine” “logic”, “objectivity”, and “analysis”.

            /sarcasm off

  • anja

    “Who’s to Blame When a Woman Experiences Abortion Regret?” That’s an easy one. The anti-abortion crowd. They are the ones who create the irrational stigma via harassment, persecution, dis-information, indoctrination, and biased media attacks. Just check out a CPC or visit a RC Church.

  • Melinda Hampton

    Nobody is to blame for feelings of regret. It just is what it is. I bet people have feelings of regret from having the baby instead…or giving it up for adoption.

    The grass is always greener on the other side.

  • Dana

    The idea of anti-choice people making women regret abortions makes me think of the Catholics pooh-poohing the Magdalene Laundries because if they hadn’t rescued those poor fallen women and sold off their babies, the women would have been shamed for being single mothers. Oh no kidding, really? Because the Catholic Church made Ireland into a place WHERE they were shamed. Did you know that under pagan Brehon law it was OK to be unmarried and have a child? They even had a naming convention for them; that’s where names like Fitzsimmons came from. “Fitz” might translate today as “bastard son of,” only that’s not a great translation because it wasn’t occasion for shame. Ireland has actually gone *backwards* since it converted to Christianity. What a great scam they’re running though… pressure women into hating themselves for their pregnancies, then offer them the only way out. There aren’t nearly enough consequences on tap for those people. I’m glad Pope Francis reached out to Philomena and baptized that other single mother’s baby, but he’s going to need to do more than that.

    • fiona64

      “Fitz” might translate today as “bastard son of,”

      Yep … even carried over into the UK. Fitzroy was the king’s bastard.

  • Ivy Shoots

    I ate at a restaurant and regretted getting dessert. So full. Why did they serve me that cake when the entree was clearly sufficient? They must pay.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Yes, I’m certainly regretting those girl scout cookies I bought. Darn Thin Mints and Samoas.

      • Ella Warnock

        You should regret even buying those cookies. Don’t you know that the Girl Scouts support and encourage abortion? I heard it from a pro-lifer, so I know it’s true.

        • L-dan

          The only reason I break my rules about buying those sorts of sweets to bring home is because I want to support the GS (and have a weakness for Samoas). Still have my sash tucked away somewhere.

        • lady_black

          The Girl Scouts must have changed a great deal since I was in.

          • Shan

            No, see…they were secretly working on their agenda even back then! I was only in Brownies for ONE DAY and see what happened to ME?!

      • MsC

        I regret that my husband did not get Do-Si-Dos when he ordered cookies from a Girl Scout mom at his job. Now I’ll have to sue him, dammit.

  • rosie

    I do not regret my abortion and neither did my partner. I am now in Medical School with my heart set on being a Developmental Pediatrician. I do not know where I would be if I carried to term. But I do not regret the decision I made.

    • red_zone

      Nor should you regret it and anyone who tries to make you feel guilty is a jerk. You can only do what’s best and right for YOURSELF. No one else.

      • rosie

        Agreed. But I did take my partner’s input into account. I think that’s also something that needs to happen as well (unless it’s abusive/rape/assault). I sat down with him, had a nice long chat and we both decided that it wasn’t the right time. He was OK with me carrying to term but didn’t want to force it on me. He was actually just happy I told him and that he was a part of the decision. Everyone is different though. And I felt I could talk rationally with him.

        • red_zone

          it’s great you have such an open communication with your partner who supported your decision. Not every woman who finds herself pregnant is that lucky.

        • L-dan

          I think that really depends on the relationship. I’m not sure if I would bother to consult with the other person if it were a casual relationship, for example. If I have zero intention of raising a child with that person, there’s not really any input for them to have.

          For that matter, while I told my partner when I had my abortion, I wasn’t seeking his input so much as maintaining the honesty and communication that was part of the relationship. The decision was made before we’d even met as I don’t want children, period.

    • Theodoor Westerhof

      Good for you.

      • rosie

        Thanks! Means a lot to me :D

  • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

    Interesting way to begin: “Anti-choicers would like you to believe they are very concerned about abortion regret.: Especially since Anti-Lifers would like everyone to believe they are very concerned about rights and liberties despite the prevalent fact that they deny the father his rights and kill their son or daughter.

    • fiona64

      Oh, look. A cute little MRA.

      Tell you what, Nick. Every pregnancy that occurs in your body, you can make decisions over and gestate.

    • King Rat

      You don’t have the right to control another person’s body just because you happened to ejaculate.

    • Jennifer Starr

      When you get pregnant, then you can decide what you’d like to do with your pregnancy. But you don’t get to make that decision for another woman, no matter how much sperm you think you contributed.

  • http://www.4simpsons.wordpress.com/ Homer J

    Of course they have regret. You can’t kill your own child and not have that impact you. Consider great works of literature like Crime & Punishment, Macbeth and the Telltale Heart. They explore the truth that no matter how people try to rationalize their sins they will always find them out.

    • lady_black

      No, not really. 1) You can experience regret while knowing at the same time, you absolutely did the right thing (situational regret). And 2) most women express relief, so regret isn’t the overwhelming emotion.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      It is okay to kill children. The Bible tells me so.
      Deuteronomy 21:18-21
      18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

  • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

    “Anti-choicers would like you to believe they are very concerned about abortion regret.” Really? How can you know what resides in the hearts of ALL Pro-Lifers? If your inflammatory and hateful premise is true then it follows that All Pro-Aborts have no respect for life, thrive on power and kill their sons and daughters for even minor reasons. I know many Pro-Aborts who feel betrayed by women who express regret. These “Choicers” shame and ridicule these wounded women the way SOME Pro-Lifers shame and ridicule women who abort! Bottom Line: Blame is irrelevant, no matter who is doing it. A Post-Abortive woman who feels regret needs healing and love.

    • King Rat

      The only person here who is full of hate is you, kiddo.

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        I smell a Rat!

    • King Rat

      Yeah..I was right.

      You hate illegal immigrants, and you hate welfare. Hey nicky, you do realize that if you were to get your dream, and welfare was to disappear tomorrow, all those babies you claim to love so much would probably go without food and a house over their heads?

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        My goodness, how can one man be so wrong so many times? I lived off of welfare for almost a year. It kept me fed, housed and clothed. i value our welfare system you sad pathetic moron! My tax dollars fund welfare you simple minded enigma. As for illegal immigrants, they are here illegally. Do you know the meaning of illegal? Are you really that stupid? I know that many, many people are waiting to enter our country as legal immigrants. In your abject stupidity you would see those illegals, who break our laws, welcomed before the ones waiting to enter legally. How long have you been retarded? Born that way or was it head trauma?

        • Dez

          But if they are children of undocumented immigrants they should starve then? What children qualify for your selective compassion?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Dez, your unintelligent assumption s say so much about you. The children of undocumented aliens are graciously fed by the generosity of the U.S. taxpayers despite the lies you believe. That said, why do you desire the children of legal aliens citizenship? Your selective compassion is nauseating.

          • Dez

            Ahh so now you’re calling undocumented immigrants lazy welfare users. Any other racist stereotypes to add to your comment? Did you want to add in unwed black mothers to round your racism out? I thought so called “pro-lifer” were suppose to value all children, just not the ones you personally approve of. Of course we know that is crap and you all just care about controlling women and their bodies. If the children are disabled, poor, or non-white, “pro-lifers” don’t give a crap about them.

        • Arekushieru

          Hmm, we’re ALL illegal immigrants in North America by current laws, so, by Nicky-poos logic (and, remember, Nicky-poo, Caucasians didn’t come here because they were, for the most part, being persecuted in their home lands like MANY of those ‘illegal’ immigrants you decry, now) we should all be deported back to our own countries. Yet, I’m SURE, Nicky-poo would deride that idea, so it’s only SOME illegal immigrants that he has a problem with. That is the DEFINITION of racism, asshole. AND lack of compassion.

          Also, ableist remarks much?

          And all of the other things that you DO support are something the MAJORITY of the ANTI-CHOICE side OPPOSES, and something that the PRO-CHOICE side generally SUPPORTS. BOOHOO.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Asskusher, you said we are all illegals in North America. I have a feeling this is not even the stupidest thing you have ever said. If what you said is so then when you aborted your sons and daughters based on the laws of an illegal nation then you killed them illegally. This makes you a murder as well as a killer. Love, Ncky-Poo

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            History lesson for yahoo Asskusher. Europeans came here as a conquering nation and subjugated a weaker group. We imposed our will on the First Nation because Europeans claimed the land as their own. Then they slaughtered those who were violating the Manifest Integrity. They did to the Native Americans what Abortive Women do to their sons and daughters.

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        And rat, you are never right. Ever! Sorry to break that news to you dude but you are way to stupid to ever be right!

        • Jennifer Starr

          It is hilarious, watching you get more and more agitated and irrational.

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        And brainless, you cant even admit that post abortive women who feel regret need healing instead of blame? How long have you hated women?

        • Dez

          They need help and those who do not regret do not need your blame either. Why don’t you use that advice for women who do not regret their abortion?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Little man, show me the words I used in blame or shut up and let the grownups speak.

          • Dez

            I’m a woman. Kinda ironic your calling me that especially considering the quality of your comments. You’re the one implying that women that get abortions are getting blame from pro choicers.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Despite your gender you still can’t show any evidence of me using anything but compassion. No proof of blame you sad thing, just my proof of your inability to support your mIsandristic claims. How sad to be so wrong and to cling to arrogance to avoid saying something intelligent.

          • Dez

            You’re full of shit. You lack compassion for those who disagree with you’re non-scientific, emotional appeals. You conflate being pro-choice with being pro-abort. Is that how you show love toward women that goes against your views. Calling them murderers is not loving or compassionate. Like your mansplaining to a woman about her reproduction isn’t arrogance to the highest degree.

          • Arekushieru

            So, compassion = dehumanizing women and people who are refugees from another country? Wow, didn’t know that! Opposing that is not misandry, btw.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Areyouhuman, opposing those who kill humans is the job of all of those with a conscience! What happened to yours? Did drugs kill it?

          • Lieutenant Nun

            You’re an idiot.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And you, without picture are garbage. How do you stand the smell of you?

          • Lieutenant Nun

            Still an idiot, I see.

          • Arekushieru

            You don’t oppose ACTUALLY killing women. So, therefore, you have no conscience, by your OWN logic. AW. After all, pregnancy is the third leading cause of death for women, WORLDWIDE. Oopsies?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            When an idiot dehumanizes those killed by women who abort we call those idiots: Arekushieru

          • Arekushieru

            Abortion doesn’t kill. Ask a medical practitioner what would be the ACTUAL cause of death for a person whose rope was cut by someone else and who then fell and died upon impact? It would NOT be the person who cut the rope. Hint: the clue is in the sentence prior to that one, since it seems someone as clueless as you needs the help.

            Ableist remarks, btw? I have a condition called non-verbal learning disorder, and, especially before I was diagnosed, that’s what MANY NT people labeled me as: Idiot and stupid.

            WE don’t dehumanize fetuses, there, now, did I put that CLEARLY enough for ya, this time? YOU do, by claiming that the term fetus deprives humans of their human status. YOU dehumanize women by claiming that a fetus should be granted MORE rights than anyone born, and that women should be denied the same rights as their male counterparts all the while KNOWING that your rights will NEVER be some fucking commodity to be fought over. Fucking ASSHOLE.

          • Arekushieru

            You do realize you just dehumanized my sibling, right? They were born after an abortion where, if it had not occurred, it would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for them to be here, after all. Oopsies. More proof that YOU are the ones doing the dehumanizing. SFS.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Odd how you say i dehumanized your sibling (singular) and then say they (plural) were born after an abortion. What made you mentally retarded? No one can be born after an abortion idiot. One can survive after an abortion, but one is not born when ripped from the womb! Why do you Pro-Aborts feel shaming others is important? Why do you dehumanize the unborn to kill them?

          • ansuz

            Singular ‘they’ is actually perfectly valid.

            Here is Wikipedia:

            en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Singular_they

            Here is Oxford Dictionaries:

            “You can use the plural pronouns ‘they’, ‘them’, ‘their’ etc., despite the fact that, technically, they are referring back to a singular noun [...] Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16th century. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing.”

            www dot oxforddictionaries dot com/words/he-or-she-versus-they

            (2nd try, first got caught in spam filter for links.)

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Kudos for the strawman tactic. While defending your use of a word you failed to defend your emotional cry for pity based on a supposed ‘abortion’ of your living sibling. Then you ignored the fact that you stated that someone was born after an abortion. And you ignored the fact that you support and enjoy the killing of the unborn. And just because some outdated use of a word is becoming fashionable again is irrelevant. I do think you suffer from some form of mental retardation or you are a card-carrying sociopath! Jerk, you don’t even use a picture or your name. Would your nurse or mommy object to your contact with normal people?

          • ansuz

            I am not Arekushieru. Arekushieru is perfectly capable of addressing the rest of your comment, if zie feels like it. I just have lots of feels about pronouns.

            I think that you should seriously consider seeking psychiatric help. I will not be responding to you further.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            No more responses? No more straw man tactics? My guess is you have nothing intelligent to say because you never have anything intelligent to say. Well done.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            My mistake, you are just a troll who has nothing better to do than respond with tidbits that have nothing to do with the 54 million killed by Abortionists/Choicers. This makes you even more pathetic than I can imagine!

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Is “zie” another of those arcane 16th century words?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Trolling with arcane 16th century grammar? How sad are you?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            “Zie” is that more 16 century trivia?

          • expect_resistance

            He’s a sexist asshat.

          • expect_resistance

            Sorry you are delusional. You don’t make the rules here. You have no cred here.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            And you are redundant. The world already has way too many garbage dumps!

          • expect_resistance

            So I’m a garbage dump? What the fuck is your problem?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Hey, get over it! I’m delusional and without credibility (your words) so what is the problem if a delusional man makes two unrelated comments, one about you being redundant (there are way too many brain dead Liberals in this world) and the other comment about people failing to recycle! Does using the “F” word make you feel like a grownup?

          • expect_resistance

            I’m an adult and can say what I want. I’m not I liberal. What the hell is your point? If you actually have one.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            The Liberal doth protest too much, methinks.

          • expect_resistance

            Again, what is your fucking problem? Do you have a point posting on a dead thread?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            You type very well for a retarded guy!

        • goatini

          Ha! Says a misery pimp who gets his thrills from trying to force FALSE blame and FALSE shame upon innocent patients who have done nothing more than to avail themselves of a safe, legal minor outpatient procedure.

          He has to pimp the lies and false blame and shame, so he can sell “healing” for an imaginary malady that would not even exist, save for him and his fellow misery pimps.

          His scam is exactly the same as the fake “fortune tellers”, that convince some poor rube that s/he has some terrible disease, for which only vast infusions of cash have enough power to “cast the curing spell”.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Your blatant overuse of the word pimp” indicates your unfulfilled dead s fires. But since you lack “stature” and s t amino required for such a job, you get thrilled saying the word. Goatini (tiny goat) you are adorable and sad at the same time.

          • goatini

            I tell it like it is. Misery pimps like, for example, you, and vile scum like Frank Pavone, don’t much like being called what they ARE.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, Frank Pavone = misery pimp.

          • expect_resistance

            What the hell are you talking about?

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Wow, that auto correct wreaks havoc with my posts. So much for posting on my tablet. Corrected the above.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Damned auto correct wreaks havoc with my posts. Corrections made to above!

          • expect_resistance

            Nice excuse, whatever.

          • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

            Way too many dumps in the world.

    • Dez

      How do we get more “pro-aborts” if we are killing our sons and daughters? Also what should be done to women who don’t regret getting an abortion?

      • nickaponzi@yahoo.com

        Dez, you speak under the assumption that “Pro-Aborts” are born to other “Pro-Aborts.” Pro-Aborts are reared by the Liberal Agenda that devalues life. Women who do not regret Aborting have issues which they need to deal with on their own. The rest of us need to be ready, with compassion if they ever experience regret. We need to help them rise from the regret and move on. that is all we can hope for! As for your “weak woman brain” i would not attach that to you being a woman. i know many brilliant woman, so many smarter than me, who don’t kill their sons and daughters. the fact that you killed your sons and daughters has nothing to do with “weak” or being a woman. When you killed your sons and daughters you did so because the liberal Agenda told you that killing was your right. You are a victim, not a victor!

        • Dez

          There is no such thing as pro-aborts. That’s as bad as being a force birther like you. You do know that pro-choice women have children right? Plus children grow up to have their own opinions different from their parents. Is the liberal agenda like the gay agenda? The agenda of equal rights is so terrible to you right-wingers. Blacks, women, and now gays. You all can’t win. LOL. Some women regret, some don’t. They are grown women that can handle the outcomes of their actions whether good or bad. Well I do seriously question your lack of intelligence in that fact that you constantly use unscientific terms like pro-aborts, abortion is murder, and fetus equals babies. There is no scientific backing at all in what you said. It’s a lot of emotional hand waving with no actual facts. Then you go crazy with the liberal conspiracy theory. Are you going to start talking about the Illuminati or Agenda 21 next? How batshit crazy do you have to be to be a right-winger? A little or a lot? Thanks for mansplaing to a black woman about victimization. If it wasn’t so despicably condescending, it would be laughable.

          • ansuz

            Eh, I’ve encountered two pro-aborts — one who was against legal choice, and one who just thought that giving birth was immoral in the vast majority of situations.

          • expect_resistance

            Well said! Wow that guy was weird and not in a good way. Good example of the anti-choicer/forced-birther batshit-crazy behavior.

  • Suba gunawardana

    It’s rather funny that the only women who claim to regret abortion are
    either those brainwashed by religion, or those paid to post on forced-birth sites.

    Also funny that they never seem to ask the opinions of those women who are actually happy and relieved about their abortion.

  • Suba gunawardana

    My apologies for the multiple posts. Technical difficulties with a new thread :)

  • The Squire

    Two things, first, I was noticing that throughout this article, you referred to pro-lifers as anti-choicers. It is almost like you’re trying to pretend that we’re antagonistic and not saving more lives. Also, logically, if you don’t want a baby, don’t do anything that might create one, like premarital sex. Oh look, another conservative idea, its almost as if there was rational thought behind these ideas.

    Someone in a previous comment was talking about the cost of an abortion vs. the cost of raising a child, I can guarantee you, abstinence is cheaper.

    There was a recent news item about a UK hospital burning aborted fetuses to power the buildings. This is irony in and of itself, but there’s more. Why are people so concerned about what happens to a baby after it’s aborted, but not before. For some reason it is immoral and disgusting and wrong to burn a fetus, but not to kill it and prematurely remove it.

    • Lieutenant Nun

      You are anti-choice because you want to force women to have every baby whether they want to or not.

      Secondly, people are going to have sex. This is reality. The real world does not involve abstinence. Even the RCC priests can’t keep it in their pants. The sex drive is one of nature’s strongest drives. And people have sex for mental/physical health and pair bonding. They don’t have to be open to having a kid every time.

    • Suba gunawardana

      Actually a better term is Forced-birth.

    • ansuz

      I actually have no problem with aborted embryos and fetuses going to the same place all the other stuff in the biohazard bins goes.