Oklahoma Admitting Privileges Bill Passes Senate Committee


A bill that would require physicians who provide abortions to obtain admitting privileges at a nearby hospital passed the Oklahoma Senate Committee on Health and Human Services Tuesday. The senate version of the bill includes many more restrictions on reproductive health care than the house version, which passed committee last week.

SB 1848 is sponsored by Sen. Greg Treat (R-Oklahoma City) and Rep. Randy Grau (R-Edmond), who is also the sponsor of a house bill to restrict access to medication abortion. The bill would, like the house version, require doctors who provide abortions to obtain admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles of the clinic where they are performed.

But unlike the house version, the senate bill includes requirements about equipment clinics must have available, as well as specific regulations on abortion procedures, which the state health board would be required to enforce. Strict reporting requirements are also included.

The legislation regulates the pre-procedure screening of patients, including specific requirements for medical history and physical examination. It also includes requirements for actual abortion procedures and standards of care after procedures; under the legislation, physicians would have to provide written instructions for medical emergencies and recommendations concerning “post-abortion coitus.”

The bill appears to be based on model legislation drafted by the anti-choice group Americans United for Life (AUL). SB 1848 includes several passages that are identical to AUL model legislation. In the section mandating admitting privileges for abortion providers, only eight of 76 words from the model legislation are different.

Sen. Treat and Rep. Grau have a history of successfully passing AUL-inspired bills in the Oklahoma legislature. In 2011, both Treat and Grau authored a bill based on AUL model legislation that required abortion providers to follow the Food and Drug Administration’s outdated guidelines for medication abortions. (That bill was later blocked by the courts; Grau introduced similar legislation this year.)

During the 2013 legislative session, Treat and Grau worked together to pass a parental notification law that is one of the most stringent in the country. AUL praised the law for being based on its model legislation.

SB 1848 has been referred to the Senate Appropriation Committee, where it awaits further action.

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  • five_by_five

    I think we should get rid of all abortion restrictions because that’s obviously the safe thing to do.

    • Mirable

      Agreed. It has worked just fine in Canada for over 20 years

      • Ella Warnock

        Well, you know everybody in the US knows all about our godless, heathen, barbarian neighbors to the north. Let me tell ya, I fear for my very LIFE when I’m in Victoria surrounded by all those insane polite people!

        • cjvg

          Giggle

    • lady_black

      Yes it IS the safe thing to do. Of course “restrictions” aren’t the same thing as “regulations.”

  • Shan

    Never mind that the AMA and ACOG filed an amicus brief before Texas passed HB2, stating that admitting privileges are medically unnecessary and that requiring physicians to use the outdated FDA protocol forces them to use an inferior regimen. The rabid right-wing Texas legislators ignored the advice of actual physicians in favor of continuing to practice medicine without a license, and now it seems Oklahoma is following suit.

    • five_by_five

      Interesting thing about actual physicians….only 14% of OBGYNs choose to do abortions because they know how barbaric the procedure is and want nothing to do with it.

      • Mirable

        they know how barbaric the procedure is and want nothing to do with it.

        citation needed

        • HeilMary1

          Symphysiotomies are barbaric.

      • lady_black

        That’s because there’s not much money in abortions. The big money is in pregnancies and more complicated GYN surgeries. What do you suppose is more profitable, delivering babies or doing abortions? Obstetricians make thousands of dollars on pre-natal care, thousands more for deliveries and C-sections, and midwives do most of their work for them when it comes to vaginal deliveries.

        • Mirable

          Or they don’t wanna get shot.

          • five_by_five

            Yeah because in the past 15 years there have been so many abortion providers shot.

            Oh wait. One.

            One abortion provider was shot in the past 15 years.

          • Mirable

            And clinics firebombed. It’s still dangerous work. They still wear bulletproof vests to work. Crazies still print their home addresses online and tell other anti-abortion fruitcakes to phone them incessantly. People don’t want to put up with harassment. From asshats like you!

          • Shan

            So abortion providers are safe now until 2024?

          • Mirable

            Your link went to moderation. Try putting a space like this:

            PRCH . org

            It went into moderation because you typed it PRCH. org

          • Jennifer Starr

            Only one shooting in fifteen years, huh? Well let’s look at what else has happened in the last fifteen years:
            October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.
            May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire, resulted in several thousand dollars’ worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.
            September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building, who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.
            June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington, destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages.
            July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida, was the target of an arson. The case remains open.
            December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.
            September 11, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan, crashed his car into the Edgerton Women’s Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions; however, Edgerton is not an abortion clinic. Time magazine listed the incident in a “Top 10 Inept Terrorist Plots” list.
            April 25, 2007: A package left at a women’s health clinic in Austin, Texas, contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.
            May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
            December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd’s clinic in Albuquerque. Baca’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.
            January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness[39] rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.
            January 1, 2012 Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family Planning Clinic in Pensacola, Florida, with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.
            April 1, 2012 A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that damaged one of the clinic’s examination rooms. No injuries were reported.
            April 11, 2013 A Planned Parenthood clinic in Bloomington, Indiana, was vandalized with an axe.

          • five_by_five

            You writing all of that doesn’t change the fact that there has only been ONE abortion provider shot in the past 15 years.

            One a side note, you guess must be freaking out that you can’t downvote me anymore.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Doesn’t change the fact that there are many, many terrorists on your side. Sensitive about your lack of upvotes, huh? Trolls don’t tend to get many.

          • L-dan

            Why chose 15 years btw? Possibly because it leaves out things like, that same provider being shot in both arms previously and the shooting death of another doctor the same year? That was 21 years ago. Four more in the following year. Oh, and it just misses Dr. Slepian in 1998 at the 16 year mark.

            What’s special about 15 years, other than making a nice point for your cherry-picking?

            Additionally, what does that have to do with providers’ fear of being harassed and possibly shot? Woo, only one in 15 years despite all of the people who threaten to do the same! That should make them feel totally safe and not worried at all!

            All of the incidents Jennifer notes are actually relevant to the actual point…which is that anyone associated with abortion is justifiably afraid of the stalking and harassment of the forced-birth crowd.

          • Shan

            And don’t forget Dr. Mila Means getting threatened by Angel Dillard.

            “Dillard promised, they would know “your habits and routines. They know where you shop, who your friends are, what you drive, where you live,” Dillard wrote. “You will be checking under your car every day—because today is the today someone places an explosive under it.”

          • L-dan

            *nod* I sort of figured that fell into the general ongoing harassment, but it was missing from the longer list.

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s being an apologist and trying to whitewash the violence and terrorism on her side.

          • five_by_five

            At least my side doesn’t kill 1.2 million people per year.

          • lady_black

            Nobody kills 1.2 million people a year.

          • Shan

            Watch. RvW did. I bet you a nickel.

          • L-dan

            Let’s see…one side ‘kills’ 1.2 million ‘people’ who have never drawn a breath, felt a thing, thought a thought, and who would not exist at all without being plugged in to the human life support of their ‘incubator.’

            The other side harasses, stalks, and kills actual people with thoughts, lives, feelings, and loved ones. People who wear bullet proof vests to come to work and serve. People who are just trying to get into the building for testing or prenatal care. People who are making the decisions that are theirs to make about what happens to their bodies–about their own health.

            False equivalence much? The weight of suffering tells me yours is not the moral side of that equation.

          • five_by_five

            I’m glad you think of your mom as an incubator.

            That’s cute. I’m sure she, likewise, viewed you as a parasite.

          • L-dan

            When you force someone to carry a pregnancy to term against their will, what would you call it? You’re obviously not thinking of them as a person, with their own lives and needs. Forcing someone to carry a pregnancy that they do not want makes it very clear that the ones doing the forcing think of them as less important and as less of a person than the undeveloped embyo or fetus they’re supporting with their own flesh and blood.

            But sure, if you want to think I actually think of my mom as an incubator because it gets your rocks off, I can’t stop you.

            You got your trollish little thrill on without adding anything of substance. Go you! Your mom must be so proud.

          • Ramanusia

            If she knew the definition of the word, she would have. You don’t understand what words mean do you, you just exist on pure moronic emotion.

            A fetus is a parasite, it doesn’t matter how you feel about your parasite, if it’s existing on your blood and affecting your normal state of health, it’s still a parasite.

          • lady_black

            Nobody ever claimed that they think of their own mother as an incubator. What was said is that YOU think of her as an incubator. And that is accurate. You assign more value to human tissue than you assign to human beings. That doesn’t say much good about you. You’re doing what you do best. Knocking down straw men and deflecting.

          • lady_black

            Sorry, that was supposed to go to five by five.

          • L-dan

            no problem, I thought as much.

          • fiona64

            Fetii are not people.

          • HeilMary1

            You’ve maimed and murdered BILLIONS over the centuries.

          • Ramanusia

            He’s actually killed billions of “people” just by existing. How did he get digits, if not by murdering millions and millions of cell people?

          • goatini

            Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses are NOT citizens or people. Rights accrue to persons who are citizens at birth.

          • Ramanusia

            Actually, it does. Cells, blastocysts, embryos and even fetuses are not people. Women are, and your side loves killing them.

          • Shan

            Off topic again.

          • lady_black

            Yeah we can.

          • expect_resistance

            No, we can still downvote you but the number of downvotes doesn’t get tallied.

          • colleen2

            and your pathetic denial does not change the fact that the ‘pro-life’ movement as a whole is violent, authoritarian and attempts to impose some disgusting religious doctrines onto women who do not share their beliefs.

          • five_by_five

            And yet somehow less violent than the genocide of killing 1.2 million babies per yer.

          • Mirable

            Call me crazy, but bombing clinics and shooting people in the arms is way more violent than a typical abortion, which is merely an induced miscarriage:

            http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

          • five_by_five

            MANY more BABIES have had their spinal cords cut or heads or limbs ripped off …all in the name of abortion than any number of people hurt by abortion clinic attacks.

          • Mirable

            So if they were removed alive through c-section and left to die out in the open, you wouldn’t be bothered at all?

          • five_by_five

            They should be taken to the NICU.

            You too dumb to figure that one out on your own?

          • Mirable

            So if they were removed alive through c-section and left to die out in the open, you wouldn’t be bothered at all??

          • five_by_five

            Of course that would be bothersome

            Here’s the thing…that happens with babies born at less than 23 weeks. It sucks, but despite technology, not much can be done.

            On the flip side of that coin are the pro-choice losers that are still against elective abortion bans after 23 weeks.

          • Mirable

            It sucks, but despite technology, not much can be done.

            so you’re ok with it then?

          • five_by_five

            No, I’m not “ok” with it. Only a sociopath would be “ok” with it.

          • Mirable

            Well then if you’re not ‘ok’ with it, then why do you only talk about dismemberment abortions of 24 week + feti?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Because she thinks that gets the biggest emotional bang. She doesn’t actually ‘care’ about them in any real sense of the word, it’s just another prop to her.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And you’ve proven that a sociopath is precisely what you are.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are misusing the word elective. Again. Dumb as a box of gohmerts.

          • five_by_five

            Nope. We’ve been through this already. Remember?

            w w w dot medilexicon dot com/medicaldictionary dot php?t=147

          • five_by_five

            You forgot to reply to the post where I showed you the link that describes “elective abortion.”

            It’s ok. I’ll let you think about it for a bit longer Plum Dumper.

          • HeilMary1

            Psychopath you has criminal Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome and you exploit fetuses to inflict medical mayhem on women as punishment for sex.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Monkeys throw poo. You use “elective” incorrectly over and over again.

          • goatini

            And mean as a box of stockmans.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And crazier than a box of bachmanns.

          • HeilMary1

            LOL! I’m stealing that!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Enjoy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Loonier than a lot of Lou Engles–oh, that’s a scary thought.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Agree. That man is bizarre. I look at him and I get the creeps.

          • HeilMary1

            5×5 would keep them alive only until they reach full term size, then starve them to death as lazy moochers.

          • Mirable

            Oh, and if it’s non-viable, why does the method of removal matter? Whether it comes out in pieces of whole, is immaterial. With a non-functioning brain and organs, there is no ‘baby’ to speak of – just a mindless animal organism.

            You really need to try to make an argument that isn’t an appeal to emotion.

          • five_by_five

            Great. I’m glad you support a ban on all elective abortions after 23 weeks since that is considered viability in most places.

          • Mirable

            Oh, and if it’s non-viable, why does the method of removal matter?

          • L-dan

            Well we’re close. Abortions after 24 weeks everywhere, and earlier in some places, already exist save for cases of emergency or fetuses that are non-viable due to deformity. We’ve pushed viability back to the point where 23 weeks offers some hope, but 24 is still where the numbers really climb to the point where it’s reasonable to call a fetus viable.

          • L-dan

            Is it violence when there’s nothing there to feel it? I still don’t see how the death of any number of unfeeling, non-cognizant, potential people are morally equivalent to the actual suffering of a single person.

          • HeilMary1

            Childbirth made my friend’s NOSE, LIPS, PALATES, EYE, EAR, SKIN AND BRAIN LETHALLY ROT OFF. Childbirth made many women I know/knew wear incontinence diapers and get dumped by their husbands.

          • five_by_five

            link/pics or it didn’t happen.

          • HeilMary1

            http://umm . edu/health/medical/reports/articles/melanoma-and-other-skin-cancers

            I have no pictures of my dead face cancer friend, but she was present in the audience during the below hearing, and you can see her later on when the camera pans over the audience.

            https://www . youtube . com/watch?v=het0FIAtH3M

            Marriage-ruining incontinence:

            https://www . fistulafoundation . org/what-is-fistula/

          • five_by_five

            So cancer ate your friends face…..not pregnancy.

            You’re a moron.

          • HeilMary1

            Pregnancy TRIGGERED her cancer, DUMBASS MOTHER KILLER.

          • five_by_five

            Yeah….sure it did.

            “there exists no conclusive evidence that pregnancy significantly affects
            the biologic aggressiveness of a melanoma in terms of increasing the
            incidence of metastasis or lowering overall survival.”

            surgery dot med dot nyu dot edu/oncology/patient-care/melanoma/special-situations/melanoma-pregnancy

          • HeilMary1

            High estrogen from FEMALE FETUSES is a well-known trigger of many cancers, including breast cancer and the basal cell carcinoma that killed my friend. Her oncologists warned her not to get pregnant again because that would re-trigger her facial skin cancer. She ignored them, had another daughter, and the cancer returned.

          • L-dan

            Possibly true overall. In any individual case, however, the higher estrogen levels during pregnancy are going to have an effect on cancers that are estrogen sensitive. Sounds likely that Mary’s friend was suffering from such a cancer.

          • HeilMary1

            Yes, I kept recommending BC pills for improving complexions, but she informed me that her particular skin cancer was estrogen sensitive. And notice how the antis always attack the pill for “causing cancer” because of its slightly higher estrogen level, but then ignore the much higher estrogen levels of pregnancies? They then ludicrously claim pregnancies ward off breast cancer.

          • five_by_five

            Marys friend didn’t have breast cancer – which most certainly can be linked to high estrogen levels and pregnancy. She had skin cancer.

            Mary is full of shit.

          • HeilMary1

            Sh*t troll, my friend’s oncologists told her another pregnancy would re-trigger her ESTROGEN-SENSITIVE basal cell carcinoma cancer, and IT DID! It must suck to be always wrong!

          • five_by_five

            Estrogen-sensitive skin cells?

            Ha, nice try.

          • HeilMary1

            Estrogen-sensitive BASAL CELL CARCINOMA, liar.

          • five_by_five

            why don’t you provide a link to this new type of skin cancer that you and your friend found.

          • HeilMary1

            http://www . plosone . org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10 . 1371%2Fjournal . pone . 0041957

          • five_by_five

            ohhh…mice.

            now show the human research and you win the Noble prize.

          • HeilMary1

            My dead friend is the human evidence, you evil mother killer.

          • L-dan

            Breast cancer is not the only sort of cancer that can be estrogen sensitive. Not sure where you’d even get that from.

          • HeilMary1

            His butt.

          • five_by_five

            You’re right. Prostate cancer and endometrial cancer can also be linked to ER.

            Not basal cell carcinoma. Sorry. Unless you can provide a study that shows that….that would be great.

          • L-dan

            Given that this seems to have happened a fair while ago and the science on estrogen sensitivity in cancers goes back and forth where study A sees a link while study B doesn’t, I don’t think she’s a liar. At worst, her friend’s doctor at the time believed what he told her, while the actual underlying reason her cancer worsened with her pregnancy and ultimately killed her was entirely coincidental to the pregnancy. We’re not actually privy to those conversations.

            Skin is one of the organs with a strong connection to estrogen. Increases and decreases have a marked effect. Thus it would be reasonable, once it was discovered that estrogen has something to do with some cancers, to think it might have something to do with skin cancers. If her doctor had actually seen evidence in her case, or in his other patients, to think that estrogen was affecting their cancers, it’s not a stretch to think he’d have taken the cautious route of advising them against more exposure than necessary.

            Nor are all skin cancers or all breast cancers alike. Researchers have a full time job with all the ‘exceptions’ that crop up to each new rule they figure out. Meaning that the relationships are very complex. I doubt you can find a recent citation that says estrogen definitely never plays a role in skin cancer. Those cancers that are commonly affected by hormones are not always affected by hormones. Those that are not commonly affected by hormones are not always unaffected. If a cell has estrogen receptors, it can reasonably be expected that some forms of cancer that affect those cells might be affected one way or another by estrogen.

            A couple of 2010 studies (one study and one review) were easy to find and indicate some complex associations of estrogen and skin cancer. Neither would be strong enough to place skin cancers into the category of ‘commonly affected by hormones’, but certainly don’t leave it in the category of ‘never affected by hormones’.

            Another article from the Skin Cancer Foundation notes, “The role of female hormones (such as estrogen receptors),
            already known to play a role in breast cancer, have also been a concern
            with regard to stimulating melanoma growth, especially in light of
            associations between melanoma and pregnancy. (While
            pregnancy does not increase the risk of melanoma, melanomas diagnosed
            during pregnancy tend to be thicker, and more dangerous, than those in
            non-pregnant patients.)”

            TL:DR –It’s complicated. There is no reason to believe Mary is lying about what she was told by her friend, as doctors at that time may very well have offered that diagnosis. There is certainly no reason to think your limited medical knowledge is more credible.

          • HeilMary1

            You summed it up very well. My friend had a very complicated case and I unsuccessfully tried to post a link for the only picture I could find of her. The link might have appeared off topic because it was a youtube clip of radiation / MK-ULTRA victim Claudia Mullen’s hearing testimony. My friend was in the audience when the camera panned the room.

          • L-dan

            No problem. It gave me an excuse to dig through a couple of relatively complicated papers (along with the mouse one you linked) regarding the expression and inhibition of ERalpha and ERbeta and their relationship to melanoma. One details a genetic tag that seems associated with an odd increase in risk for pre-menopausal women…turns out it’s part of an interaction that ends up affecting ERbeta. It’s fascinating to read those and get a hint of the detective work (and many, many boring experiments) behind the scenes.

            It seems like nearly every other cancer story out there has a dramatic pause somewhere in the middle where things head into “but this wasn’t behaving as expected” territory. Only the most knowledgeable (or arrogant?) oncologists are likely to say “you never see x with y cancer,” and even they are ready to be proved wrong by the next patient.

          • HeilMary1

            My friend, Ann, also had a lot of radiation exposure from living near a nuclear plant. She developed pre-cancerous spots in her teens, and full blown skin cancer after x-rays from a boyfriend nose punch. By then, she already had two sons and a put-up-for-adoption daughter. She realized her nuclear plant mad scientist dad had Munchausen by Proxy psychosis when she studied psychiatric nursing. He used her and her brother for lab experiments. She briefly nursed at a Catholic hospital in St. Petersburg, FL, where nuns used government aid to x-ray PREGNANT unwed mothers. Ann and the other nurses were aghast at that “charity service”. Coincidentally, Ann also worked for one of the slain abortion providers in FL. She described him as a wonderful country doctor. When she moved to DC, she fell for an “activist” con artist who bullied her into one more pregnancy, despite warnings from her oncologists. When I met her, her abdominal skin had already been transplanted to cover half of her face. She developed three types of cancer, including melanoma, but mainly basal cell carcinoma destroyed one eye, ear, nose, lips, etc. She looked like the noseless frowning theater mask icon in stage ads.

          • Mirable

            Women who have had ovarian and breast cancer are also more prone to developing skin cancer.

          • expect_resistance

            Oh shut up you obnoxious troll. Again you KNOW NOTHING!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Link or it did not happen.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Prove this.

          • five_by_five

            What do you think happens to 20+ week abortions?

            And if a woman dies in this country because she cannot get a safe abortion, then she is an idiot. Oh no, you might have to take the day off work….or spend some money….oh the horror. I guess it’s better to just die.

          • L-dan

            And that 1.2 million includes a very small percentage of 20+ week abortions. Of those, the number done for reasons other than fetal anomaly or maternal health are vastly in the minority.

            Your side is fine seeing thousands of women each year dead or gravely injured as they turn to illegal measures to end their pregnancies. Sorry, I’m still not seeing that as the moral high ground.

            Or…let’s say your side actually grows something resembling empathy and compassion and says “well…I guess we could just restrict those over 20 weeks and call it good. Those are the really horrible ones” This means that all of those cases of fetal anomaly have to go through some sort of review, prolonging the process and the pain for the parents of wanted pregnancies gone wrong. This means doctors second-guessing whether or not their patient is sick *enough* to warrant an abortion, causing delays that are detrimental to their health and even fatal if they guess wrong. All of that so that a fraction of a percent of your 1.2 million unfeeling, unviable fetuses aren’t killed in a way that offends your sensibilities.

            Sorry, fuck your sensibilities. I’m on the side of reducing suffering, and we do have the moral high ground, child.

          • five_by_five

            Yeah, you’re correct . Only a small (1.4%) of abortions occur after 21 weeks.

            That’s 1.4% X 1.2 million. Hold on, I’m not good at math…that’s

            16,800 abortions after 20 weeks – per year.

            If you’re OK with murdering a basketball stadium full of people due to inconvenience, then go right ahead.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re OK with using fetuses to maim and murder millions of women every year.

          • five_by_five

            But it’s just a “bunch of cells.” How does it have the capacity to murder? Is it sentient?

          • L-dan

            as sentient as cholera.

            Not technically murder, I suppose, but it’s still the proximal cause of their deaths.

          • HeilMary1

            Tumors and guns aren’t sentient, but they kill.

          • five_by_five

            You obviously don’t know the difference between “kill” and “murder.”

            I’ll give you a sec to figure that out.

          • Mirable

            And it just happens that abortion = justifiable homicide. Anyways, Mary is making a point, by using ‘murder’ to describe how feti kill women – because that’s how YOU and your ilk like to talk – that women viciously ‘murder’ their baybeez at 30 weeks gestation because they suddenly discover that their s1ut pants are too tight!

          • HeilMary1

            I also like the alliteration.

          • L-dan

            Ok, I can get behind alliteration.

          • L-dan

            aww, once again going straight to the appeal to emotion without paying the slightest attention to the bulk of the post. Derailing is really the only thing you’re good at.

            Just to focus on the numbers there, what fraction of that stadium is due to maternal emergency or fetal anomaly?

            What fraction of that stadium feels anything?

            Now, what fraction of the equal sized stadium representing the people having those abortions can feel something regarding their (usually) wanted pregnancy that has gone wrong in some fashion?

            And you would like laws to push more suffering onto the people in that second stadium to improve the lot of some small fraction of those in the first stadium.

            Nope, still not the moral high ground.

          • goatini

            Well, in a safe, legal pregnancy termination, NO, they do not. Because all babies, ever, have already been born.

          • colleen2

            pretending that zygotes, embryos and fetuses are ‘babies’ is just another manipulative lie folks like you use to pump up your violent and mentally ill ‘Christian’ brethren

          • five_by_five

            1. I’m not Christian
            2. Have any of your friends ever been pregnant? Did you look at the sonogram and wonder when the “clump of cells” was going to kick?

            Did you invite all of your friends over to have a “fetus” shower?

            Ha ha. Tell yourself whatever you want to justify your sick behavior. That’s on you.

          • Mirable

            Many of the women here are mothers. Mothers who love their children.

            But hey, if you get hot and bothered thinking that all pro-choicers do is fantasize about killing babies..well, you’re the one that needs help.

            Why the obsession with fetal dismemberment sweetie?

          • five_by_five

            “Why the obsession with fetal dismemberment sweetie?”

            What’s with your obsession defending it?

          • Mirable

            Answer my question with an answer instead of a question.

          • Renee Goodwin

            It’s too bad we don’t have an ignore this poster button, might want to do it manually, cause it doesn’t seem to matter what anyone says to 4×4 all you are gonna get back is more garbage

          • HeilMary1

            The real obsession is with defending women against mutilation BY FETUSES, jackass.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Because making abortion illegal kills and maims women worldwide. That is a fact. You are a sociopath and your lack of empathy and affect is pathological.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Funny, pretending that you actually care about babies or anyone else besides yourself. And no, superficial concern for other women’s zygotes, embryos and fetuses doesn’t count.

          • colleen2

            “And no, superficial concern for other women’s zygotes, embryos and fetuses doesn’t count as caring.”

            But that’s as close as many Republicans get to a genuine human relationship………….

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, and after they’re born the ‘pro-lifers’ could care less about them.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Caring about the ‘unborn’ actually requires very little effort or exertion on the part of the so called ‘pro-lifer’. A march there, a demonstration here –flash a gruesome picture and use things like Gosnell and disabled kids as talking points and props–but it doesn’t actually require much from them,. Helping born kids requires more, and frankly I don’t think 5×5 would even cross the street to help them.

          • colleen2

            This blog is not about you. I cannot begin to say how little I want to know you personally. My life and particularly my reproductive life is none of your business. Neither are the reproductive lives and decisions of other women you do not know and who do not want to know you.
            You know NOTHING about me or my life, nothing about the lives of the other women here. What you are doing is engaging in sick fantasies and projections and them condemning people you know nothing about based on your sick fantasy life. You should get out more.

          • five_by_five

            You called me a Christian. I’m not. So if you don’t want to know that about me, then don’t bring it up.Colleen.

            Actually, I do know something about the sex lives of people on here because they’ve written about it. For example, L-Dan admitted that she didn’t use her birth control properly and had an abortion as the result.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re a Catholic pedophile priest pretending to be an atheist adult female.

          • colleen2

            Please show me where I called you a Christian. Your beliefs are as irrelevant as are your poorly formed opinions. Again, the personal lives of the women here are none of your business. You’re as creepy as an obscene phone caller. But, then, creepy is just what we have come to expect from Republicans.

          • five_by_five

            “Christian’ brethren”

            Yeah….you assumed I was a Christian. You were wrong.

            Unless that is…you didn’t know what “brethren” meant. Then you are just stupid.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re just a stupid lying troll who can’t keep his lies straight.

          • colleen2

            Most of the ‘pro-life’ movement claim to be Christian. Thus they are your Christian brethren. Please go away now.

          • five_by_five

            Yep, I was correct. You don’t know what brethren means.

            brethren (ˈbrɛðrɪn)

            — pl n
            1. archaic a plural of brother
            2. fellow members of a religion, sect, society, etc

          • L-dan

            You don’t think the pro-life movement constitutes a sect or society, etc.?

            From the outside, we see it as rather cultish. So she’s using it correctly even from that limited definition.

            In common usage, it has the connotation of ‘kind’, You and your–ilk, kind, type, brethren.

            But really, you’ve yet to present a decent argument for anything thus far, so now you’re reduced to poking at commonly understood words that have nothing to do with the subject at hand?

          • five_by_five

            Even if “pro-life”did constitute a sect, that’s not what colleen wrote, did she?

            She specifically wrote “Christian brethren.”

            I’m not Christian. She was wrong. Get over it.

            If she had written “pro-life brethren” then she would actually be making some sense.

            Comprende?

          • L-dan

            No, Christian brethren refers to them, not you. You don’t have to be Christian to be part of the cult, it’s just that the vast majority are.

          • five_by_five

            Do you know what cognitive dissonance is?

          • HeilMary1

            You are the epitome of cognitive dissonance.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are the guy who uses “elective” incorrectly. We are going to take grammar lessons from YOU? Ha.

          • five_by_five

            www . medilexicon . com/medicaldictionary . php?t=147

            Oops. You’re wrong plum dumper.

          • expect_resistance

            You make a lot of asinine assumption too. Point being, you are only using this site as a vehicle to shame, abuse, and humiliate people here.

          • HeilMary1

            If you believed your own crap, you’d be attending “baby” tampon funerals forever.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are the WOMAN KILLER here. Illegal abortion is a major killer of women worldwide. You want to impose gory death on women by law. AND WE ARE SICK? Laughing at you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Actually, I have the kind of woman friends who would think “fetus shower” is funny. You do not actually know any women intimately, do you?
            Why is that? Your breath. Your personality. Your job?

          • Jennifer Starr

            A combination of all three, I would think. Five_by_five is not generally liked or respected wherever he/she/it goes.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I know that is right. Why is it hanging with us? It does not have hobbies?

          • HeilMary1

            It’s in minimum security detention for sex offenses, and has no access to children’s web sites.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And it is typing to us from the dayroom? You may be right.

          • HeilMary1

            It’s a priest picked up for masturbating at playgrounds. It’s enraged that we feminists don’t knock ourselves out reproducing fresh kids for its “hobby”.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Ick. It certainly knows how to shame and blame. Major priestly skill.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I wish I knew. I don’t think it’s motivated by a desire to ‘save baybeez’ or life or anything like that. I think it just basically wants to troll and insult/attack women, specifically women who are liberal. And I do know that it went on the Breitbart forum to complain about us–probably hoping to bring someone here on her side–though they probably don’t like it there either.

          • Mirable

            That’s hilarious. And yeah, it was chased off The Atlantic forums a month or so ago. Not just by me, but by everyone – who started laffing at it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It complained? That is hysterical.
            I agree: it is here because it needs someone to insult and feel “better than.” What if that is the only interaction it is capable of? And we are the only friends it has? Now that is really sad.
            Almost makes me feel guilty. Almost.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s a psychopath that is using this site as a vehicle to abuse.

          • HeilMary1

            His roman collar?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Good chance. He has that loving priestly nature, not.

          • L-dan

            Have you seen some of the shower cakes on Cakewrecks? There would absolutely be people who find ‘fetus showers’ funny.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Cake Wrecls is hysterical. I have not thought of them lately. Must go look. LOL. TY.

          • goatini

            A baby shower, like a bridal shower, is held in anticipation of a future event that has not yet occurred.

            There is NO BRIDE until the wedding has transpired. And there is NO BABY until birth has transpired.

          • Ramanusia

            Gee, you’re not a Christian, you just cut and paste from the local christian, anti-choice guidebook do you?

            Moronic comments about sonograms, and baby showers, which by the way are all about celebrating the UPCOMING event, the baby that WILL be born.

            I get that words, like many other concepts are not easy for you to grasp, but do you also fail to understand tenses?

            You seem to be telling yourself and everyone else lots of stories, many lies, and mangling words to justify your own sick behavior. One wonders why the need to lie so very much, you must be aware that you’re on the wrong side of this.

            Your lies and idiocy are on you. Kindly keep away from women and their healthcare decisions, you have the right to affect your own body with your idiocy, keep your bloodthirsty lies and violent fantasies to yourself.

          • HeilMary1

            Fetuses shredding women’s vital organs is pretty gory and deadly. Why do you think most anti-choice men dump their brood mares and are pedophiles?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Drama Queen. An individual woman have an abortion is not guilty of genocide. Absurd.

          • Ramanusia

            Since 1.2 million babies aren’t harmed at all by abortion, you’re pretty much the violent, bloodthristy murderers of actual people each year. Thousands of women die each year due to the polices that your pro-death folks shove through, and it’s pretty violent.

            One cannot abort a baby, if you realized how words work, you might understand why your failure to understand words makes you a liar, and doesn’t hide you violence, hatred and misogyny.

          • HeilMary1

            I just did, MOTHER KILLER! You’re livid that the U.S. isn’t quite as third world as the Philippines where thousands of forced birth homeless kids sell their bodies to you priests for food.

          • ljean8080

            To TPTB,Why is Mary allowed to cALL People every name in the book and no one else is?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We like Heil. And truth is an absolute defense to a charge of slander.

          • ljean8080

            So,if you like someone,no matter what they do,it’s ok?

          • Jennifer Starr

            What exactly has she done?

          • HeilMary1

            ljean has it in for me even though I have agreed with her on some points in the past. She has appointed herself my personal detention nanny and word cop.

          • ljean8080

            SHE calls people every name in the book an

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Speak for yourself. Not others.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar (OK, that’s a name that sometimes suits you), I NEVER use many words that are four-lettered or racist.

          • Jennifer Starr

            In the book an? Huh?

          • HeilMary1

            Yes, my bad word crimes are so much worse than history’s notorious despots. Oh the horror! I’m so ashamed! NOT!

          • HeilMary1

            Oh boo-hoo!

          • ljean8080

            At least I don’t name call like a 4 year old

          • HeilMary1

            At least I don’t whine over like an infantile SENIOR CITIZEN like you.

          • ljean8080

            Mary,on this board you said you never had a boyfriend,but on another site you talked about your ex-boyfriend.

          • HeilMary1

            Stalker, I never had a HUSBAND or MARRIAGE PROPOSAL, and I often bring that up because misogynist antis love claiming we pro-choice feminists reject proposals left and right. My only “boyfriend” refused to introduce me to any of his friends or relatives because he was ashamed of my ruined looks. And he was the best I could find after years of surgery and numerous other extreme makeovers.

          • ljean8080

            not a stalker.

          • HeilMary1

            You only post here to criticize me. That’s stalking.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, you are.

          • ljean8080

            in what way>?Mary calls people every dirty name in the book and gets away with it.I call her on it and I’m the bad guy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nothing you write ever has anything to do with the actual topic of the article–you just follow Mary around and bring up past statements she’s made and basically make a rather pointless troll out of yourself. Mary doesn’t stalk you. Mary doesn’t even talk or think about you, and yet you seem to have this obsession with her.

          • HeilMary1

            I don’t use 4 letter words and you ignore the disgusting insults from the anti-choice trolls. You have double standards.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m flagging this for being off-topic and frankly none of your business. And yes, this is stalker behavior.

          • Mirable

            Stalker.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you have an actual reason for posting here, apart from your Mary obsession?

          • HeilMary1

            Her reason is name calling me for my name calling.

          • Mirable

            No. You just stalk people.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Interesting that was the part of my post you responded to. Let me clear:
            I like Heil Mary.
            I do not like you.
            Point to anything that Heil has said that was NOT TRUE. I will wait.

          • expect_resistance

            We like HeilMary and she hasn’t done anything wrong. On the other hand, 5×5 has been caught lying over and over again. 5×5 is abusive and is using this site as a vehicle to abuse others. That’s why.

          • HeilMary1

            Grow up! If you had an ounce of perspective, you would notice most regulars here do get fed-up with some trolls and start using stronger language. But you always single me out.

          • Ella Warnock

            But mooooommmyyy, SHE gets to do it so why can’t IIII?
            **stomp stomp pout**

          • HeilMary1

            LOL! Ljean is older than 60, but still such a pouty little girl!

          • Ella Warnock

            I know, it’s funny that she says she doesn’t “name call like a 4 year old.” Maybe so, maybe no, but she certainly stomps and pouts like one!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            5×5 could be a priest. He has the requisite immaturity and sexual dysfunction.

          • HeilMary1

            His language sounds more masculine than feminine and his dogmatic repetition of key phrases is very priestly.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes, I agree. Not female. Which phrases?

          • HeilMary1

            Haven’t picked out particular masculine-sounding phrases, but he seems to have no first hand experience with BEING female.

          • goatini

            I think 5×5 is Roeder, and 5 x 5 are the dimensions of his cell.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Now there is a thought. 5×5 certainly has the personality for it.

          • Ramanusia

            Writing all that sheds some light on the true nature of your pro-death squads, and what exactly you’ve been up to. Are you upset that you’ve only been successful once?

            You seem to be gloating despite the fact that once again a litany of facts handed you your rear, and you can’t seem to deal with it.

          • Shan

            Don’t let 5×5 derail the topic.

          • expect_resistance

            Jennifer, thank you for this extensive list. I’m copying this list and adding to my anti-choicer/forced-birther violence file.

          • fiona64

            And yet, they insist that anti-choicers are not terrorists …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you, FBI.

          • lady_black

            That’s one too many.

          • five_by_five

            I agree. But it’s only one. You’re much more likely being killed by lightning.

          • Shan

            Still nothing to do with admitting privileges or the outdated FDA protocol.

          • HeilMary1

            Meanwhile, you fetal idolaters maim and murder millions of women every year on behalf of pedophile priests.

          • Ramanusia

            Yeah, because all those whose kids were being threatened and whose faces were on “wanted: dead or alive” posters, whose clinics were bombed, and who need bodyguards and must travel in disguise are somehow not justified in fearing for their lives from people who are domestic terrorists, who’ve spent quite some time seeking to maker their murders justifiable.

            Oh wait, are you full of b.s., why yes, it would seem so, but way to back your anti-choice, anti-life doctor killing, child threatening terrorists though. It just shows exactly how much you all value actual life.

      • Mirable

        20k for a c-section vs. 400$ for an abortion hmmm

        Tough one.

        • five_by_five

          Do you think an OBGYN gets paid $20K for a c-section?

          • Mirable

            Do you think an ob/gyn gets paid the full 400$ for the abortion?

          • five_by_five

            No, I don’t.

          • Shan

            Still off topic.

          • lady_black

            In some places yes. Around here, prices aren’t that high. A C-section only runs about 15K, not counting hospital charges.

          • Shan

            5×5 is derailing

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep. Imbecile is reduced to toilet insults.

          • five_by_five

            No, regardless of what the hospital bills, the OBGYN is NOT making $15K per c-section.

          • Mirable

            Do you think an ob/gyn gets paid the full 400$ for the abortion?

            Oh, and most abortion clinics are only open a few days a week. The ob/gyn has to FLY in from out of town, usually. They don’t work 5 days a week for 8hrs a day.

            There’s more money in childbirth, and you’re an idiot if you think otherwise.

            Doing abortions is a huge pain in the ass for most ob/gyns. Childbirth is easy money in comparison.

          • lady_black

            A physician may, as part of an agreement with an insurer, agree to accept whatever reimbursement the insurer pays by way of guaranteed payment. If you’re paying cash, you get billed whatever the doctor charges. PERIOD. And if you choose an out-of-network provider, you’re stuck with the balance. Regardless, specializing in abortion, or any GYN surgery is not as lucrative as specializing in obstetrics.

          • fiona64

            Citation needed.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I had a C section in 1987 with my second daughter. ObGyn’s bill was $10,000.00

          • five_by_five

            liar.

            If obgyn’s were making $10K per c-section, they’d be making $2 million per year.

            You are a moron.

          • HeilMary1

            They probably are making $2 million, but have little left over after they pay malpractice insurance, their staff and rent.

          • five_by_five

            So there are NOT making $2 million.

            Got it.

          • HeilMary1

            They still make far more delivering as opposed to aborting, because deliveries require multiple patch-up surgeries afterwards, not to mention the billions made by other specialists in organ transplants, plastic surgery, and birth defects, who are needed to mop up after million dollar disaster pregnancies. And don’t forget the divorce, tort and Social Security disability lawyers who are needed for the financial support of dumped disabled mothers and infants!

          • five_by_five

            Stop projecting your fucked up life onto others.

            Just because your life sucks and you suck, doesn’t mean everybody does.

          • HeilMary1

            We know YOU suck, mother killer! And your head is exploding over the ugly truth of commonplace childbirth injuries, deaths, birth defects, divorces and bankruptcies.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry, but I think it’s been conclusively proven that you do pretty much suck.

          • expect_resistance

            Quit whining.

      • Shan

        That has nothing to do with the fact that both the AMA and ACOG said that admitting privileges are medically unnecessary and that requiring physicians to use the outdated FDA protocol forces them to use an inferior drug regimen. Stick to the topic.

        • expect_resistance

          Excellent point! We need to stress the “Medically unnecessary.”

          • Shan

            It’s a science-denial thing. Like the ones who insist there is no such thing as climate change because LOOK THERE WAS A SNOWSTORM or the ones who insist the world can’t be more than 6000 years old because GOD/THE DEVIL PLANTED FOSSILS TO TEST THE FAITHFUL or because and the ones who insist that birth control = abortion because it MIGHT MAKE YR UTERUS NOT MAKE TEH BAYBEEZ..

            Pft.

      • fiona64

        Citation needed … as usual.

        • L-dan

          Not that they’ll offer any if they haven’t bothered in the past 2 days. Trolly troll is trollish. It’s much more fun to spout off inflammatory rhetoric instead, dontchaknow?

      • HeilMary1

        Interesting that you fetal idolaters know that coffee, tea, cola, holy wine, and cigarettes trigger abortions but do nothing to criminalize these “baby killers”.

  • http://www.friv2friv3friv4.com/ friv 2 friv 3 friv 4

    You are misusing the word elective. Again. Dumb as a box of gohmerts.

    • Mirable

      Ban this spam account PLEASE.