HR 7, and the Consequences Women Are Made to Bear


Tuesday evening, the U.S. House of Representatives passed HR 7, also known as the “No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act.” This is a sweeping ban on abortion coverage and another mean-spirited attempt to interfere with a woman’s personal decision-making, one that falls hardest on women who are struggling to get by and young women.

Fortunately, this bill is unlikely to pass the Senate, and President Obama promised to veto it if it made it to his desk.

What does HR 7 mean, if it’s not going to be enacted? We could tell more about how HR 7 would restrict insurance coverage of abortion, putting it out of reach for many women. Or that it would make permanent the Hyde Amendment and deny Medicaid coverage of abortion. We could remind you of the fact that denying Medicaid coverage of abortion forces one in four poor women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, with the number even higher among young women.

But, instead, we are going behind the statistics—behind the political rhetoric—to talk about the real impact of restrictions on abortion and bans on coverage. Let’s talk about the real women who are affected by these harmful, unnecessary, and shameful restrictions. For too long, too many legislators have turned their backs on women and have forgotten that one in three women in the United States will have an abortion. These women include the young woman in front of you in the check-out line, a favorite English teacher, or the woman next to you on the train to work. We cannot know all their circumstances. These women are smart, and capable of making decisions about their own health and families; we should be finding ways to support and uplift them, not spending needless energy on restricting their options and too often causing harm to them and their families.

Individual stories, like the ones collected below as part of the 1 in 3 Campaign, are reminders that women are forced to bear the weight of harmful restrictions such as HR 7, made by legislators who are too close-minded, too ignorant, or too uncaring for the consequences of their pens and base-baiting debates. These stories are also a reminder to us. They remind us why we fight, and what we are fighting for.

“I had my daughter and then nine months went past and I got pregnant again. And that was a big shock … My daughter’s father and I didn’t have any money. Abortions cost money. A lot of money. $350 is not cheap when you’re 19 with no job and a new baby and the baby’s father is halfway trying to support us. We had to go borrow money. We didn’t even have any money to get the abortion. How could we not have any money to do that, but we would have money to raise another child?” —Alex

“I was once with an abusive partner … and we were always one part-time hourly paycheck away from being destitute. It wasn’t long before I could no longer afford birth control pills and as soon as I stopped taking them I got pregnant. My only reaction was terror. If I’d kept the baby, there’d be no chance of getting away from him. Keeping it wasn’t an option.” —Anonymous

And we can never forget Rosie Jiménez, who was a 27-year-old college student and single mother when she became pregnant. She qualified for Medicaid, but because the Hyde Amendment had gone into effect two months earlier, she couldn’t get coverage for an abortion. Rosie was six months away from graduating with a teaching credential—a ticket to a better life for her and her 5-year-old daughter.

Unable to raise the money to pay for a legal abortion, she turned to an unsafe and illegal procedure. On October 3, 1977, Rosie died of septic shock, the first known victim of the Hyde Amendment, and a painful reminder that legal abortion means little to a woman without the ability to pay for it.

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  • Dan

    If you’re going to fear monger, the least you could do is show your readers enough respect to be good at it. A women is in an abusive relationship, decides to go off birth control, and is surprised to get pregnant? All the while, your readers are supposed to be sympathetic to her and want to have her abortion paid for by tax payers? If she made the decision to play mattress polo with her winner of a boyfriend one would hope she’d have enough sense to have a bit of $$ to her name, knowing full well that even on birth control she can get pregnant, or else opt to abstain (I know, I know… “abstain” is a dirty word amongst the pro-abort crowd who sees nothing wrong with the 3500 abortions that take place in the US each day, 98% of which are elective in nature, meaning not for rape/incest/health reasons)

    • Arakiba

      I bet you don’t have a girlfriend.

      • Dan

        Better – happily married with kids. We used birth control and did not have our first until 8 years after we got married. (That being said, we certainly woud’ve kept the baby had the birth control not been effective.) Although learning we were pregnant for the first time did create a bit of anxiety (can we *really* afford it? this is going to be a lot of work, etc), I cannot even imagine life without my kids. Can you imagine how many good people / future world leaders we’ve killed off when performing abortions to the tune of 3,500/day in the US?

        • fiona64

          Can you imagine how many good people / future world leaders we’ve killed
          off when performing abortions to the tune of 3,500/day in the US?

          Or future serial killers? Or just Joe Blow?

          Get real, dude.

          • Dan

            anja / fiona64: look at the abortion statistics for China. Tell me which gender is being wiped out. Now, tell me with a straight face who *really* is waging a “war on women”, such as yourself. And as far as the unwanted thing goes… we are having a shortage of those who pay into social security. There are simply not enough people contributing to help those who are retired. We have all kinds of space in the US – a growing population is not a bad thing.

          • lady_black

            That is an expected result of not having enough jobs. So your reaction is to add to their numbers? Fascinating.

          • HeilMary1

            For more starvation!

          • Ivy Mike

            A growing population is a horrible thing on a planet with finite resources. If population outgrows the ability of an economy to provide work for all those people, wages decrease, along with living standards.

            Rightwingers constantly repeat this “growing population” myth, forgetting that overpopulation always leads to poverty. Worldwide examples abound.

            As for the whole “China aborts Girls!!” gambit, 1. their one-child policy, whilst anti-freedom and contrary to our own values, was a rational, if misguided, response to an out-of-control population, and 2. there is absolutely no credible evidence to claim that such sex-selective abortion is a problem here; and 3. Such selective abortions result from a male-dominated, sexist culture in the first place.

          • lady_black

            They don’t “forget.” They are the masters of a snow job.

          • cjvg

            Pointing at the abortion practices of a male centered society that values males over females and therefore aborts females is not exactly a convincing argument to make!

            You want to claim that women who are fighting to retain ownership over their own reproduction are making war on other women? So women who insist that women and men should have equal rights and equal (social) value are supporting a male centered worldview ?

            You need to take some (or a hundred) classes in logic and reasoning, it would improve your ability to present an actual coherent argument and participate in a debate without looking incompetent!

          • Dan

            Debate 101 – Never personally attack your opponent. It makes you look desperate. :-) And, unfortunately, when it comes to the abortion debate men do not have equal rights in the United States. Why is it that a baby’s…. err… “fetus’s” (just to keep you happy) father has no say in whether the child is brought to term, yet if the mother decides to bring it to term child support must be paid. If it’s just a “blob of tissue” and abortion is just a $350 “medical” procedure, shouldn’t the male’s total liability be just $350?

          • lady_black

            The male’s “total liability” is the price of the abortion. IF she wants to have one. Go buy a clue. Men do not own the bodies of women, and cannot force them to either gestate OR abort. But rest assured, when the first man becomes pregnant, the same rights will apply to him. Let’s talk about child support. What it is:
            1) The right of a child to be supported by both parents.
            2) Paid by the non-custodial parent to the custodial parent (regardless of gender),
            3) Meant to be used to pay for necessities of raising a child. (Housing, food, utilities, clothing, medical care)
            What child support is NOT:
            1) An “allowance” to be spent by the child on pleasurable items and activities.
            2) Money paid by the non-custodial parent to “see his/her kid.”
            3) A gift to the custodial parent or the child.
            Once there’s an actual child, neither parent can decline to support it, except by mutual agreement to relinquish the child for adoption. Go find me ONE case of a man being ordered to pay support for a fetus, and I’ll side with you. That wouldn’t be fair.

          • cjvg

            The father has every right to make decisions about his own reproductive choices as long as his own body is concerned!
            None of us have or should have the right to dictate which medical decisions a competent adult can make for him or herself.
            Wear a condom, use a spermicidal, enroll in a male birth control trial (they need volunteers) have a vasectomy, take some personal responsibility that actually involves you instead of always always always pointing at another!. If you did all that , then you have a right to complain about being forced to pay child support. However if men did all that there would be not even a fraction of the unwanted pregnancies we have today and women would be much more sympathetic to this non argument!
            Just because you manage to carelessly and irresponsibly impregnate a woman does not mean you now own her body and the right to make far reaching medical decisions for her.
            Each and every pregnancy and child birth carries the risk of irreparable harm as well as death. No doctor can or will ever guarantee you that your pregnancy is going to end well, they can only state a likely outcome of health (or not)

          • Cactus_Wren

            During the time when a man’s body is directly involved, he has a say. (That’s during sex.) During the period when a woman’s body is directly involved, she has a say. (That’s during sex and pregnancy.) Then as soon as a child comes into existence (er, that would be at birth), it merits support from *both* its parents.

          • Amanda Kazarian

            Men do have a say, they can get a vasectomy if they are that worried about knocking someone who is “Pro-abortion”. Its a simple out patient prodecure.

          • fiona64

            First of all, Anja and I are not the same person … so you can stop pretending otherwise.

            The war on women is being waged by conservative men who are pissed off about losing their hegemony. And it’s no different from the situation in China, where men are considered to be superior.

            Sort of like you see yourself with your man-splaining bullshit to women — you know, the people who are directly impacted by your position.

            And the whole “we have all kinds of space in the US” thing betrays your complete and total *ignorance.* There are things called infrastructure that require space in order to support a population.

            As you are wont to say, “have a friend explain it to you.”

          • Dez

            So your solution is to treat women like brood mares? They did that to my ancestors to create a bigger, stronger slave. It was sick and disgusting then and it is now.

          • HeilMary1

            There is only one job for every three unemployed adults worldwide, so how would more hungry homeless babies and injured mothers fix social security?

            And since the US and other warmongering nations have huge surpluses of war widows, divorcees and spinsters like me, China can send its surplus bachelors here.

          • colleen2

            We have all kinds of space in the US – a growing population is not a bad thing.

            This is exceptionally shallow, even for a Republican.

        • anja

          Ha Ha! That’s a completely ridiculous argument! “how many good people / future world leaders we’ve killed of”. You could as easily say how many terrorists, murders, criminals, and megalomaniac dictators would have been prevented.

          I prefer something more realistic like how many more unwanted people we’ve unnecessary produced to fight and kill over the earths finite and over stressed resources.

        • Michelle

          Can you imagine the number of women who could become world leaders, etc, with access to affordable reproductive services? Of course you can’t because your statements reveal you see women as vessels, and not people in their own right.

          • Dan

            Call me a traditionalist, but I think being a good Mom is the best job of all. Moms ultimately shape who their kids will become. At the end of the day, career-junkies and politicians can be replaced, but the work a Mom does with her kids lasts forever.

          • Michelle

            Exactly, because you don’t think of women as people in their own right.

          • Defamate

            So you believe that for women, anatomy is destiny. Men can have dreams and fulfill them, women can stay home and give birth.

          • Dan

            I believe the best person to raise their kids are their biological mother & father (and study after study prove this), and until the future-parents are ready to have kids, they have all sorts of options at their disposal to prevent doing so without having to use abortion as birth control, and without having my tax dollars pay for their abortion.

          • P. McCoy

            I really hope your sons volunteer for the military so that I can have the choice not to pay for their war injuries. When you’re broke, then you will rue the day on how others and yourself wanted to tell others what tax monies should be used for.

          • Dez

            Bullshit. Studies show kids are best raised by two parents regardless of their gender. Same sex couples do as well or even better than straight couples on raising children since they actually have to plan their children instead of accidently getting pregnant like straight people.

          • Dan

            Show me the money, Dez (a URL would be great)

          • Dez

            American Academy of Pediatrics website since the URL is in moderation.

          • Dez

            Please show a study for your claim.

          • Dan

            As suspected, we cannot post URLs here (comment flagged for moderation). But, if you go to the #1 search enjun type and in Studies that show children are best raised by their biological parents, then click on the first link, it’ll be quite informative for you.

          • Dez

            Yet I can show studies that show otherwise

          • Ivy Mike

            Dan, I just did exactly as you just suggested…went to Google, typed in your exact phrase, and clicked the first link. Guess what it was to?

            A report from the Family Research Council! An actual HATE group, per the Southern Poverty Law Center. Home of noted mysoginist, homophobe, and all-around bigot, Tony Perkins..

            Try again. Maybe you can cite someone even more extreme and laughable.

          • Dan

            Sorry – Mike…. I have no idea who these groups are. Click link #2, link #3, etc.

          • Ivy Mike

            Maybe you ought to check your sources before using them, Dan. You’ve just blown a huge hole in your credibility.

          • Dan

            Don’t blame me. Blame google. It was the first link. With the exception of today, I typically don’t spend all day discussing this.

          • fiona64

            So, you don’t bother to examine your sources for bias?

            Why am I not even remotely surprised?

          • expect_resistance

            Personal responsibility.

          • colleen2

            I see that even your inability to use your computer properly isn’t your fault or responsibility. Republican ‘men’ never admit responsibility for ANYTHING. It’s like listening to a bunch of poorly raised 2 year olds.

          • fiona64

            I’m not Dez, but I’ve provided a link.

            You’ve provided nothing but running your big, fat mouth.

          • fiona64

            Actually, study after study proves that the gender is irrelevant in a two-parent household; it’s having two parents that makes the difference. In fact, children of lesbian couples do better on any number of measures than children of straight couples.http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html

            And your tax dollars have never paid for abortion (ref: Hyde Amendment).

            But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of your fantasy life.

          • Dan

            fiona – I tried to post a link showing different findings, but my comments keep getting flagged for moderation (imagine that at this site). Guess I’ll just cut and paste… Kids of same sex parents:
            Are much more likely to have received welfare (IBF 17%; LM 69%; GF 57%)
            Have lower educational attainment
            Report less safety and security in their family of origin
            Report more ongoing “negative impact” from their family of origin
            Are more likely to suffer from depression
            Have been arrested more often
            If they are female, have had more sexual partners–both male and female

          • Ivy Mike

            Dan, do you have any studies not bought and paid for by hate groups? The one you cite is paid for by the Family Research Council.

          • Defamate

            It’s a script, bro. It filters ALL links, from ALL new users pro-choice or pro-forced birth.

          • Dan

            How did rona64 get a link on here, then? I’m thinking conspiracy theory! :-) Actually, it’s probably a good way to keep the spam down.

          • fiona64

            You mean, your link from the known hate group called “Family Research Council”? Yeah, that’s a *great* source. /eyes rolling so hard I see my brain

          • goatini

            You beat me to it. What a load that dude is shoveling.

          • HeilMary1

            I’d trade my disfiguring straight parents any day for loving gay parents.

          • lady_black

            Oh who CARES what you think? There are many ways for a woman to have a career and still have the parents raising the kids. My husband and I did it. It’s called “cooperation.” It requires the input of two adults. Try it some time.

          • Dan

            Agree 100%, lady_black, and I’ve got nothing against you for pursuing a career and having kids.

          • lady_black

            Well, that’s mighty white of you.

          • Dan

            LOL – That’s mighty white of you to notice me being mighty white.

          • fiona64

            Wow. You are so generous. /snark

          • cjvg

            Of course if mom is raising a little girl she only has to shape another “mom” , since that is the best job of all for females. Traditionalist do not want to “waste” the potential of little girls and let them become anything else she might prefer !
            Now if mom is raising a boy then we are talking about world leaders, or whatever that little boy decides he would like to be. after all the “men” in your worldview are to inept to raise children

          • Dan

            No, when you raise little girls up you tell them they can do whatever they want, whether it be a professional career, or a Mom… or both. Being pro-life doesn’t mean you’re anti-career.

          • cjvg

            So you believe men are incapable of raising children?

          • Dan

            Not at all. I know some exceptional stay-at-home (and career) Dads.

          • cjvg

            Why then refer to raising kids as “a moms job” and as “the most important thing she can do” and as ” Moms ultimately shape who their kids will become” etc. etc.

            Fathers are not expected to do anything and if they do make some effort it apparently has no lasting influence on the kids?!

            And if fathers are actually involved they are still able to have a career since you do know “excellent career dads” but your “traditional” view only sees a stay at home mom as doing a good job?

            With every post the hole and the subsequent inconsistencies get bigger!

          • HeilMary1

            Amy Herbst has lost her opera career because childbirth made her flatulent. In fact, she’ll have a hard time getting any job with that problem.

          • goatini

            Women who cannot have full control of when, where, why, how, and with whom to start or grow their families CANNOT participate in the professional business world and in higher academia.

            The business world and higher academia shut women out for centuries, with the old “women can’t have that post because they might get pregnant” line. Gender-segregated “Help Wanted” advertisements (M=high-paid management work; F=low-paid drone work) were still around in my early adult years.

          • Defamate

            Exactly. The thing is though, it is verboten to mention it. Because how could you put superficial things like a career, money, and self-fulfillment ahead of a precious life?

            How could you?

            So they do their damndest to shame shame shame. And they twist it to make you feel guilty. You chose to spread your legs and got pregnant? Too bad! You put a helpless human being in harm’s way, and now you MUST give it life. Any other decision makes you a bad person! Yeah yeah…we know that men can just walk away, but you know what, your quarrel is with biology, not us! It sucks that pregnancy may ruin your life and health, but you should have thought about that before teh sex! Be a mature adult and accept responsibility for your actions!

            And then, to put the icing on the cake, they talk about how women are selfish for demanding child support etc. Just another layer of guilt, really. It’s all about shaming female sexuality.

          • lady_black

            I could say the same thing about fathers. It never stopped them from having careers. You think biology is destiny.

          • fiona64

            Well, here it is: Dan thinks no woman should aspire higher than her biology.

            Thanks for proving our point so well.

          • HeilMary1

            But you’d dump any mother with incontinence.

          • goatini

            No one ever disqualified MALES from full participation in the business world because they are parents. PARENTS shape what a child will become. The work PARENTS do with THEIR kids lasts forever.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Oh and let me guess dad is head of household, mum needs to be primped and ready to spread em when the man get homes from work to sit on his ass?
            Where mum has no say in the house cos ‘man knows best’
            Screw that for tradition, i’ll take this modern world where women at least speak up and hope to make change over an opressed housewife anyday

          • Amanda Kazarian

            Blech, I’ll decide what skills I can contribute to the world, don’t try to make that decision for other people, thats creepy.

          • HeilMary1

            Those women would never be elected if they suffered obstetric incontinence.

        • lady_black

          They have my deepest sympathy.

        • HeilMary1

          If your wife suffered the same injuries as Amy Herbst, I’m sure you would have divorced her and abandoned the kids.

        • Amanda Kazarian

          I don’t want your life, no matter how great you say it is. Some of us are happily married and choose to be child free. We will not obtain because the idea of abortion makes YOU uncomfortable. No one involved in my marriage cares about your opinion. Deal with it.

    • TheBrett

      Yes, I’m sympathetic to a woman in an abusive relationship who goes off birth control because she can no longer afford it and gets pregnant. As for not having the money for it, that’s where the whole “abuse” factor comes in.

      (I know, I know… “abstain” is a dirty word amongst the pro-abort crowd
      who sees nothing wrong with the 3500 abortions that take place in the
      US each day, 98% of which are elective in nature, meaning not for
      rape/incest/health reasons)

      If abstention was a real thing as opposed to mostly blowhards on the Christian Right sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending that sex doesn’t happen, it might not a “dirty word”. As is, I don’t have anything against abstention – but planning for it is idiotic.

      • Dan

        So if I buy a $400 car and am surprised when it breaks down on a cross-country trip, will you be sympathetic to me and pick up my car repair bill? Same thing. Thanks, though, for not having anything against abstinence. Believe it or not, planning for it is not so idiotic. Millions of couples have made the decision to wait with sex until marriage and/or they are ready to have kids. Ya, I guess I’m a “prude” by many’s standards, but it does work. If that’s too difficult, go spend $.75 on a condom at a gas station.

        • TheBrett

          If it turned out that you were lied to about the car, then yes I would. This woman presumably did not go into the relationship expecting that he would be an abusive asshole.

          Still missing the “abusive” point with the condom remark, I see.

          • Dan

            TheBrett, you are missing the difference between “abusive” relationship and rape. The article simply states “abusive” relationship, meaning the woman had the choice of whether to engage in sexual activity or not. So…. if the shady character who sold me the car said it’d be an excellent performer on a 4,000 mile cross-country trip you seriously would pay for the engine/tranny that blew up after 1500 miles? I’m calling BS on that one, but if you’d like to redeem yourself please kindly forward your name/address/phone #, and bank routing #s. I’ve got some car shopping to do!! Why would I buy a reliable $3,000 car like everybody else, knowing it’ll do just fine, when I can get somebody else to pick up the tab for my terrible decisions?

          • Michelle

            You actually think rape doesn’t happen in abusive relationships? Why am I not surprised.

          • Dan

            Michelle – I’m just reading the article as it is written. Perhaps you should contact the author for clarification. Until then, don’t chastise me for reading it as it’s written.

          • Michelle

            Abusive relationship implies rape. Fear is not consent.

          • Dan

            Not necessarily. One can be physically / mentally abusive, but it doesn’t necessarily mean rape is occuring. Again, with the pathetic fear mongering the author was doing, I’m quite certain she would’ve said rape. We’re likely arguing semantics at this point, which is why I choose to read the article as it is written.

          • lady_black

            In an abusive relationship, it’s safe to assume rape is occurring.

          • Michelle

            Once again fear is not consent. That is rape. I find it odd that people refuse to believe that abusers are also rapists. Do you somehow think that a person who has a history of physical abuse is going to accept refusal when it comes to sex?

          • expect_resistance

            How is what she said “fear mongering?” It sounds like your just throwing that out now knowing what it means.

          • expect_resistance

            Try doing some research before you comment and say stupid things.

          • Dan

            ditto.

          • expect_resistance

            No, I’ve done my research, you’re the troll here.

          • Dan

            Well, ya, perhaps I am a troll. Either way it doesn’t matter, given the venue here. This would be like you going on Fox News and saying, “Obamacare is da bomb! And, might I add that Hillary Clinton is HOT!!”. Your comments, like mine here, would be read by a fairly biased audience based on the content of the website itself.

          • lady_black

            Nice straw man. Nobody is talking about covering car repairs.

          • Dan

            It’s an analogy. Have a friend explain it to you.

          • lady_black

            It’s the worst I’ve ever seen. Women aren’t utilitarian objects like cars. A better analogy might go something like this:
            “You got into a car accident and got injured? Too bad. You’ll just have to live with your broken body. You made the terrible choice to drive. You knew what could happen.”
            THAT’S a valid analogy. Your local community college offers courses on logic. Go take one.

          • Dan

            Okay, we’ll roll with your analogy. That’s what car insurance is for. And the government and my tax dollars don’t pay for your car insurance. If you make the *decision* to drive, then perhaps you should make the *decision* to purchase car insurance (birth control), or have money set aside for car repairs / medical bills in the event of an accident (abortion).

          • lady_black

            Yep. That’s the same way I look at my health insurance that I PAY FOR.

          • HeilMary1

            But you antis insist the insurance we women pay for not cover what we need it for, while you make us pay for your free Viagra.

          • fiona64

            Analogies only work when the examples are ::wait for it:: analogous.

            Have a friend explain it to you.

          • Renee Goodwin

            Not even close, most women in abusive relationships do not have the choice of engaging in sex or not, you are completely missing the point. Do you really think that an abusive man is going to allow his victim of domestic abuse to say no to him if she doesn’t want sex, or use a condom if she doesn’t want to get pregnant?

          • colleen2

            So, as long as he’s just emotionally and/or physically abusive and does not actually rape her it’s all good and she just needs to change her evil female ways and gestate ?

        • porkchopexpress

          One of my wife’s friends had to get physically removed from an abusive huaband’s house by her male family members because she was terrorized by her husband to the point that she was more afraid of what he would do to her if she left. She had been beaten and raped but because she was terrified she never told anyone. Thankfully my wife’s friend didn’t get pregnant….but she could have.

          Perhaps the woman that was mentioned in the article was in a similar situation? Because abuse can be a gamet of different things and people react to abuse in different ways.

          • Dan

            Sorry to hear about your wife’s friend, porkchopexpress. That had to have been a horrific ordeal for her and the other family members.
            Perhaps the woman in the article was in a similar situation, but I think that may be a bold assertion. Typically, if one is raped, it is called just that. And, that being said, a very small fraction of all abortions are due to rape. Last I checked, rape/incest/health combined accounted for a mere 2% of abortions. Additionally, with the exception of a extremist zealots, nearly everybody on both sides of the fence are “okay” with allowing abortion in the instance of rape, even having it covered under insurance. But I think we use that very small percentage as justification those who use abortion as birth control, which is the primary argument of most pro-lifers.

          • fiona64

            No woman is required to reveal the reason she seeks an abortion, “Dan.” And rape is one of the most under-reported crimes because of victim-blamers (who use language just like yours).

          • Dan

            I’m no victim blamer. Again, I’m reading the article as it is written, which hardly makes me a “victim-blamer”. But if name calling, blind stereo-typing is what make you happy, have at it.

          • lady_black

            Yes you are a victim blamer and a man-splainer. You reek of it.

          • Dan

            And you reek of being an absolutely miserable man-hater. (relax a little; will ya?) I’m as entitled to an opinion as you are, despite having those man parts that seem to have you so incredibly angry.

          • lady_black

            I love men. I’m married to the best man in the whole world, and I am reminded daily of how lucky I am to have him. You don’t qualify. Real men don’t equivocate on women’s rights and women’s issues. Real men pat women on the head and tell them “Don’t worry your pretty little head about it. Just say no.” That is you. That isn’t a real man.

          • Defamate

            Just because people disagree with you does not make them man haters. You are not a victim here so stop acting like a widdle baybay.

          • Dan

            So using you’re logic, Defamate, is it also safe to say that if somebody does not agree with you it does not make them a “victim-blamer”? Goes two ways, dude.

          • Defamate

            She said that victim blamers use language just like yours. She did not call you a vb. Learn to comprehend.

          • Dan

            And big fat dummies use language just like yours. I’m not calling you a big fat dummy. I’m just saying they use language like yours, and are like you. But you’re not a big fat dummy. I didn’t call you a name. My hands are clean here. If you’re offended for me saying big fat dummies are like you it’s because you can’t comprehend.

          • Defamate

            Well clearly she hit a nerve.

          • lady_black

            Yes I did call him a victim-blamer and a man-splainer. And I stand by that.

          • Dan

            Full disclosure, lady_black, is that I didn’t know what a man-splainer was until I read your post and subsequently looked it up on urbandictionary. I guess I *did* learn something so can call it a day.

          • Defamate

            I do too. I was talking about fiona, however:p

            Btw, nice job owning Faye Valentine. She thinks that ‘feminism’ = forced pregnancy, and that true ‘feminism’ = giving birth and glorying in your biological destiny. Or something.

          • lady_black

            She’s an idi0t. Pregnancy is all sunshine and unicorn farts in her mind.

          • Defamate

            You are handling them great. I love how everyone is ignoring PJ4 and her ‘pregnancy cures cancer’ post.

            They, like the creationists, will try to drag you down with the pseudo-science.

          • colleen2

            It’s an accurate description.

          • Defamate

            You have been whining all along about how selfish women are and how they are so mean to men and how they kill their babeez for fun. Just own up to it.

          • Dan

            Own up to what? I never said they kill babies for fun. Simply said abortion is used primarily as birth control in the United States, and it doesn’t have to be that way. Is abortion 100% avoidable? Not at all. Can we take steps to chisel away at the 98% of abortions that are elective? (social safety nets, free birth control via health & human services, tax deductions and incentives for adoptions, etc) Yes.

          • fiona64


            Simply said abortion is used primarily as birth control in the United States,

            Only in the masturbatory fantasies of the anti-choice …

          • Dez

            And even if they were, so what? I could get one abortion or a hundred. It’s still my choice even though it would be cheaper to get sterilized or a permanent birth control.

          • Melanie_Ray

            If it’s not being used to control birth, what would you say it’s being used for?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Is there an actual point to your statement?

          • fiona64

            No one uses abortion in lieu of contraception … except, as I said, in the masturbatory fantasies of the anti-choice.

            Being deliberately obtuse is unbecoming.

          • HeilMary1

            You antis are also working on re-criminalizing contraception.

          • fiona64

            Here’s a clue for you, Dan: people calling you out on your stupidity are not “man-haters.”

          • HeilMary1

            Amy Herbst is really typical of what most women will be stuck as if you get your way.

          • lady_black

            touché HeilMary1.

          • colleen2

            OK. You need to take your act and fuck off now. I know you enjoy it but We are not going to allow you to emotionally abuse the women here.

          • Melanie_Ray

            Did somebody go trinkle in your Wheaties this morning?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Trinkle? What does that mean in English?

          • colleen2

            She is a Republican. They regard emotional and physical abuse as traditional family values

          • fiona64

            Well, here’s another splendid example of the intellectual level I’ve come to respect from the typical anti-choicer …

          • Jennifer Starr

            Still trinkling, Melanie Ray?

          • P. McCoy

            I get angry about what comes out of your head I am not any, nor do I care, nor have any envy (isn’t that what you really think that women here feel here) about your mail parts. I happen to like sitting when I have to paddle and besides man parts I always thought were too exposed and vulnerable -guys should have asked God for pouches like kangaroos have.

          • expect_resistance

            Trust me you are engaging in victim blaming.

          • fiona64

            You need to re-read your own comments, Danny-boy.

          • HeilMary1

            You stereotype all women and all abortions.

          • Renee Goodwin

            Many rapes go unreported, reporting a rape and trying to get justice for being raped is a horrific experience for the victim. Not only are the victims often not believed, they are subject to abuse at the hands of hostile courts and law enforcement. Most of the hospitals (because they are religiously affiliated) in San Antonio TX, which is a good sized city, will not help rape victims with the collection of evidence, basically the hospitals will treat the wounds, but not cooperate with or notify the police of the crime, and that means that raped women do not have access to emergency contraception, evidence collection, or any form of emotional support when they seek treatment following a rape. Then you have the fact that in 37 States the rapist can seek visitation and or custody of a child that he fathered by rape, another reason victims do not seek to have the rapist convicted, because for the women that do chose to have the child that is a result of rape often end up dropping charges because of the threat of the rapist seeking either visitation or custody of the child if the victim becomes pregnant.

            Then you have literally thousands of women in the Armed Forces that either had their rapes ignored/dismissed by their chain of command or were too afraid of reprisals and harassment if they reported the rape.

            Recently at one of the Air Force Bases in Texas, a rape victim refused to cooperate in the trial of her rapist, because his lawyers had the right to compel her to open all of her privacy protected medical records, including mental health sessions, to the them, and when the judge refused to keep all of her medical information private, she wasn’t able to proceed with the trail, because what victim of a rape or other violent crime wants their assailant to have complete and open access to all their medical records, included extremely private information like sessions with therapists and psychiatrists?

            Then you have countless victims of rape within marriage, which the vast majority of the time are not even investigated by law enforcement.

            There are more abortions due to rape than the official figures will ever show, but so many of the victims live in fear, that they do not want the reason they had to have an abortion reported

          • Dan

            Point taken, Renee. Thanks for being civil.

          • Renee Goodwin

            I know a few victims of spousal abuse first hand, so I am familiar with the facts that their abusive spouse/partner, not always physical BTW, emotional abuse is hard to prove, but certainly can be as demoralizing as physical abuse if not worse, either would not use condoms, or would have intercourse with them while they were sleeping in order to deliberately get them pregnant, or would not let them go anywhere to get birth control.

          • HeilMary1

            The U.S. has 10,000 to 30,000 rape pregnancies occurring every year.

          • expect_resistance

            The abuse often escalates when a woman is trying to leave the abuser. Recently there was a story on Democracy Now on the documentary “Private Violence” about domestic abuse. They told a horrifying story about a women who tried to leave her abuser and he kidnapped her and beat her for days, while her young daughter watched. At the end, she was found beaten from head to toe, bruised all over her body. If she was pregnant and she wanted an abortion I would pay for it for her. Some people have no idea about the horrors of domestic abuse.

          • lady_black

            I have an idea of it. Been there, done that, fled 1000 miles for my life.

        • anja

          Not the same at all and besides it is completely unrelated to the oppressive actions of this bill. You could more correctly compare it to prohibiting people from using their insurance to treat heart disease or diabetes or any of the other partially preventable illnesses.

          • Dan

            It is the same, anja. As I’ve outlined elsewhere on this thread, 98% of abortions are elective. When one assumes the government should pay for their elective abortion, they are asking the government to bear the load of the poor decisions that were made. What’s far more oppressive than this bill is asking people of faith to have their tax dollars spent on ending human life.

          • lady_black

            Elective (as applied to medical procedures) = scheduled in advance, as opposed to emergency.
            Many people conflate “elective” with “unnecessary.” I suspect you’re one of them. By your reasoning, my hysterectomy and neck surgery were “unnecessary” because they were elective.

          • Dan

            Maybe “elective” wasn’t the best choice of words, lady_black. Truth is, though, that only 2% of abortions are done for health/rape/incest reasons, the rest are “optional”, “non-medically necessary”, or whatever you want to call them. And, for the life of me, I can’t figure out why that is all people on both sides of the aisle are talking about, given it is such a small percentage.

          • anja

            Fact 1: Optional is a perfectly valid (and legal) reason in the US. I’m sure very few abortion are actually performed with out some kind of valid reason, such as economics, health, genetics, family size, age, job, education, etc… you can look up the rest yourself
            Fact 2: Blocking access to legal services & resources is oppressive (look up the definition).
            It’s hard to tell how many abortions are performed for health reasons but surveys on why you had an abortion give varying results from 2 to 25% for health reasons but according to fact 1, that’s not an issue.
            Therefore: You are wrong.

          • HeilMary1

            Most women suffer some degree of obstetric incontinence that has ruined Amy Herbst. You’re a pig who has probably dumped many childbirth-ruined women.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Point? Who cares if some women choose abortion
            Just because a woman can get pregnant DOES NOT mean she has to stay that way.
            Just because a woman can get pregnant does not mean she has to avoid sex
            A man also has full access to birth control both permanent and not

            Abortion should be available to ANYONE who is pregnant and wants one

            Since you are so against abortion make sure you never get a woman pregnant as you get NO SAY in what happens to that pregnancy

          • BJ Survivor

            Pregnancy is not a state of wellness. Which means that all abortions, ever, preserve a woman’s health, as well as her well-being.

            Normal, frequent or expected temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
            altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
            nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
            heartburn and indigestion
            constipation
            weight gain
            dizziness and light-headedness
            bloating, swelling, fluid retention
            hemmorhoids
            abdominal cramps
            yeast infections
            congested, bloody nose
            acne and mild skin disorders
            skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
            mild to severe backache and strain
            increased headaches
            difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
            increased urination and incontinence
            bleeding gums
            pica
            breast pain and discharge
            swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
            difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
            inability to take regular medications
            shortness of breath
            higher blood pressure
            hair loss
            tendency to anemia
            curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
            infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
            extreme pain on delivery
            hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
            continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

            Normal, expected, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse in younger women)
            loose skin
            permanent weight gain or redistribution
            abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
            pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
            changes to breasts
            varicose veins
            scarring from episiotomy or c-section
            other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
            increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
            loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s
            newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy
            spousal/partner abuse
            hyperemesis gravidarum
            temporary and permanent injury to back
            severe scarring requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)
            dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
            pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)
            eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
            gestational diabetes
            placenta previa
            anemia (which can be life-threatening)
            thrombocytopenic purpura
            severe cramping
            embolism (blood clots)
            medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
            diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
            mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
            serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
            hormonal imbalance
            ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
            broken bones (ribcage, “tail bone”)
            hemorrhage and
            numerous other complications of delivery
            refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
            aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
            severe post-partum depression and psychosis
            research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors
            research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
            research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy
            cardiopulmonary arrest
            magnesium toxicity
            severe hypoxemia/acidosis
            massive embolism
            increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
            molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
            malignant arrhythmia
            circulatory collapse
            placental abruption
            obstetric fistula

            More permanent side effects:

            future infertility
            permanent disability
            death.

          • Defamate

            I show that to pro-lifers ALL the damn time. I usually get three responses:

            1) she accepted those risks when she had teh sex

            2) those risks are all really rare

            3) with proper care and nutrition all of that can be avoided

            The majority of the time, those 3 responses come from dudebros.

          • BJ Survivor

            Or, they claim that they’ve had none of those effects, so it’s just lies from the pro-aborts.

          • Ivy Mike

            1. It doesn’t matter why people have abortions…the procedure is legal, and should remain so. Therefore, your “98%” figure is wholly irrelevant.

            2. The bill in question seeks not to stop “federal funding of abortion” (which already is banned), but to outlaw even private insurance companies from covering it.

            3. You, and everyone else, pay taxes for things you don’t support. No one gets an ala carte menu with their 1040 form.

            4. “Faith” is the uncritical acceptance of unsupported, unevidenced assertions. Keep your own, but do not attempt to have it influence laws affecting everyone else. Your mythology is not so awesome that it needs to be made law for all.

            5. Your threshold for “oppression” is pretty low. Quit whining.

          • Dan

            Ivy Mike – I do understand abortion is legal in the United States, but not legal in some other countries. Furthermore, various states are debating how late-term an abortion should be able to go. Viability and fetus pain thresholds are still being discussed. Whereas I’m doubtful Roe V Wade will ever be overturned, I think there is value at looking deeper into abortion. I understand many don’t share my belief in a Creator and that should not be the sole decider on what is legal or not, but at the same time I’d argue that not many actually enjoy going through the guilt and pain of an abortion. Going back to my 98% remark, why not try to chip away at that percentage, regardless of our reasoning? Isn’t an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure?

          • Ivy Mike

            I’ve been to several countries where abortion has been banned, along with contraception. Guess what? Not ONE was some sort of “culture of life”, as advertised by forced-birthers. In fact, one place I visited was Romania, where their last dictator banned all abortion and contraception outright. The people there loved that so much he and his wife were machine-gunned as a thank-you from those they oppressed. As for the rest, well, let me just say that “sanctity of life” doesn’t spring to mind when one walks about the streets of Manila or San Salvador.

            Various states are, indeed, debating limitations and obstacles to abortion. All of which are demanded not by majorities of their citizens, but by well-heeled religious groups and organizations. The bills introduced even share the exact same language and wording from state to state, since these outside groups write them for the lawmakers. All of them are merely intended to1. make abortion ever harder and more humiliating to obtain, and 2. eventually force a SCOTUS decision regarding Roe v. Wade. Oh, and they also cost the taxpayers of these states millions to defend in court.

            As i said, these laws are an active, continuous effort to overturn Roe v. Wade. One that shows no sign of stopping. Then, there is the fact that no less than four current SCOtUS justices are overtly hostile to Roe. The idea that it will “never be overturned” is fatuous.

          • Ivy Mike

            To continue,

            Most actual scientific studies show that the majority of women do not regret their choice to terminate. In fact, the most recent study indicates that the most common emotion following abortion is relief. Therefore, your worries there are unfounded.

            I would argue that there is no reason to “chip away” at that 98% you seem to love quoting. It is their choice, and none of anyone else’s business. In any case, this legislation (HR7) would do nothing to change that percentage.

          • expect_resistance

            Excellent posts! You are awesome!

          • ldwendy

            Can anyone point me to a scientific studies (or several scientific studies that actually show the majority of women do not regret their choice to terminate? Thanks in advance.

          • Ivy Mike

            Well, first off, try Wikipedia, and type in “Abortion and mental health”…the article contains links to various studies. also, Web MD has a good piece from 2000 regarding abortion and regret.

            Those two sources are the most unbiased I could find, in either direction, in a few minutes’ time.

          • expect_resistance

            I don’t regret having an abortion.

          • ldwendy

            Thank you, but I would like to see some cited scientific studies.

          • Defamate
          • colleen2

            They are easily available through the use of Google. The Guttmacher Institute is an excellent resource for this sort of information.

          • BJ Survivor

            Neither do I, though I do regret having sex with the sperm donor and getting pregnant in the first place!

          • HeilMary1

            Women don’t enjoy the pain of childbirth, its permanent deadly and disabling complications, and bankrupting bills.

          • colleen2

            WE do not feel guilt after an abortion. We feel relief

          • BJ Survivor

            No one gets an ala carte menu with their 1040 form.

            QFT. So succinctly put. I love this!

          • anja

            Wrong! The Hyde Amendment prohibits the government from paying for elective abortions.

            A procedure that benefits millions is hardly oppressive and your logic fails when you talk about faith. According to the constitution, faith can have noting to do with the laws and regulations in this country. To do so is oppressive and discriminating to the people who do not hold the same faith, hence forced religion is unethical and a crime.
            As to why should tax dollars be used to pay for things you do not approve of… It’s the same as why should I have my tax dollars spent on wars I don’t believe in… usually (as in this case) It’s beneficial to the people as a whole, and in others (like unnecessary wars) it’s your civic duty.

          • P. McCoy

            If your son or daughter goes into the military and gets grievously wounded should I, a woman of faith have also the right not to pay for Veteran’s care for them because I believe that my tax dollars should not support warmongers. Abortion is our right, and we shall fight against domestic terrorists like you in order to keep it legal and to exercise it, without guilt and without compromise.

          • expect_resistance

            Well said!

          • P. McCoy

            Thanks, I am also for taxing churches since instead of preaching and developing faith, they have become a coercive political force trying to impose a theocracy upon this nation. If they have their way, they will act like a Christian Taliban enforcing laws against LGBT people, abortion, divorce, contraception as well as establish a modesty police, similar to Saudi Arabia ‘summarily since, they blame women’s desire to express and control their sexuality as they, not the church seems fit as detrimental to the nation. As people trying to overthrow our government they should be considered as Domestic Terrorists and should be punished with the same harshness that we do against Islamic religious terrorists.

          • HeilMary1

            Ramen! Sing it, sister!

          • HeilMary1

            Explain how MARRIED Amy Herbst made irresponsible decisions when she had a planned child that left her flatulent and incontinent! She can’t work and if she was married to you, YOU’D DUMP HER.

          • BJ Survivor

            When one assumes the government should pay for their elective abortion, they are asking the government to bear the load of the poor decisions that were made.

            Thanks to the Hyde Amendment, federal taxpayers do not fund any abortions ever. You have been very civil, so I’m trying to be civil in return, but your parrotting of forced-birther talking points is becoming very difficult to take.

            And, yes, abortions, being healthcare, should be covered, just like bariatric surgeries are covered, and bypass surgeries are covered, and knee surgeries, and ED treatments and medications, and amputations, and diabetes medications, to name a few. All of those, in the vast majority of instances, are entirely preventable and are the result of poor lifestyle choices, namely gluttony and lack of exercise. Pregnancy is not a state of wellness. It is a health- and life-threatening condition. Even the healthies pregnancy can go horribly wrong during labor, which is always dangerous.

            In any event, you do understand that women do not get themselves pregnant, right? Why do I never hear or see forced-birthers take men to task for coercing women into having sex/not using birth control or even for abandoning their pregnant wives/girlfriends? Why is it that it is women and only women who are slut-shamed and then forced to relinquish their right to decide what happens to their bodies for the sake of a mindless cluster of barely-differentiated tissue?

            What’s far more oppressive than this bill is asking people of faith to have their tax dollars spent on ending human life.

            This is laughable on its face. The Religious Right seems to have zero problem with endless, expensive, unnecessary war, the death penalty, and unfettered proliferation of assault rifles, so please spare me the histrionics. People of faith seem to have no problem with ending human life unless that life is in the womb, apparently. Apparently, pregnant women just don’t qualify as “human life” to certain religious people.

            What’s oppressive is that people of conscience have no choice in having their tax dollars spent on corporate welfare to the exclusion of the citizen welfare, endless war, drone strikes, state-sanctioned killing of criminals, funding of Catholic hospitals that deny life-saving treatments to pregnant women, funding of failed abstinence-only sex “education,” et cetera, nauseum. Welcome to the real world where our tax dollars are often not put to the best of use.

            I know it’s hard for you to see, but abortion saves women’s lives. Before Roe v. Wade nearly every hospital had a septic abortion ward. There was untold carnage for many, many poor women who resorted to desperate measures to prevent bringing into the world a child they had not the means to feed and care for. It was only women of means that were able to find a sympathetic doctor to “take care of a menstrual problem” or to travel to a country in which it was legal. This still goes on today in so-called “pro-life” countries such as the Philippines and El Salvador. Please, look up “Philippines City of Guilt” on YouTube if you don’t believe me.

        • HeilMary1

          Maybe you can help Amy Herbst with her childbirth flatulence problem that has ruined her opera career and could ruin her marriage. $.75 condoms aren’t going to repair her ruined lady parts.

          • ldwendy

            Amy Herbst’s case is interesting. Some people are saying a doctor would have done a better job of the surgery instead of the midwife.

            Why are so many people obsessed with having a vaginal delivery when C-sections are sometimes safer?

          • HeilMary1

            Exactly! Many antis oppose c-sections as “unnatural” and more expensive, but they avoid maternal incontinence and infant injuries.

          • lady_black

            Arsenic, on the other hand, is very “natural”, and I highly recommend it for women oppressors.

          • BJ Survivor

            Actually, studies I’ve read have shown that pregnancy itself puts enormous pressure on a woman’s pelvic organs and often results in incontinence later in life. C-sections have their own set of problems, since they are major abdominal surgery. They are absolutely not safer than uncomplicated vaginal delivery. That said, the availability of C-sections that don’t result in death of the woman have done a lot to reduce the incidence of maternal mortality.

          • HeilMary1

            The increasing weight of fetuses alone causes incontinence by weakening the pelvic floor. But c-sections avoid episiotomy risks.

          • colleen2

            because a c section is major surgery usually done for the convenience and profit of the health care providers,. It seems a bit biased to refer to women who don’t wish to be cut open as “obsessed”, don’t you think?

    • fiona64

      Having to choose between oral contraception (which is not cheap) and groceries is not much of a “choice,” Dan. And, since the woman’s story included being in an abusive relationship, just how high are the chances she has of “abstaining”? Rape is a thing, you know? And abusive partners like their victims childed … it makes it more difficult for them to get away.

      Thanks for proving once again that it’s ridiculously easy to be an anti-choice male.

      • Dan

        I guess you’re right, fiona64…. My opinion and life experiences don’t count because I have male genitals. Silly me. Thanks for proving how ridiculously easy it is to be a sexist bigot.

        • lady_black

          Tell us ALL ABOUT when you were an abused woman. When you’ve done that, I’ll be delighted to accept your experiences as valid.

        • fiona64

          As soon as you are pregnant, Dan, feel free to make any decisions you so desire about the matter.

          If it’s another person’s pregnancy, it’s none of your goddamned business.

          Anti-choice men are a joke for one reason alone: you like to wave your hand and make pronouncements about what women you’ve never even met, and whose circumstances you cannot possibly know, should be *required to do* with regard to pregnancy. It’s not your life or limb being risked to gestate a pregnancy, Danny-boy, so butt the hell out.

          No love, a woman whose pregnancy almost killed her

    • lady_black

      You aren’t too bright, are you? Imagine your sister, or better yet, your daughter in a circumstance like that. She didn’t “decide” to go off birth control. She couldn’t afford it. And before the word “condom” comes out of your blow hole, remember the word “abusive” and the fact that a condom won’t fit on her. And before you blurt out “abstinence” again, try to think that an abusive partner will think nothing of forcing himself on her. It doesn’t surprise me that *compassion* is a word that’s lost on you, that is for anyone who is NOT a fetus. You’re a part of the problem, Danny Boy. And worse than being a part of the problem, you have no answers. All you have are complaints about the abortion rate, and meaningless platitudes. Stop being part of the effing problem, “Dan.” If you don’t want to be part of the solution, that’s fine. We don’t need you. Just get the hell out of the way.

      • Dan

        Take your meds and get back to me later, lady_black. You seem to have anger issues and/or are waaaaaaay too sensitive. My sister is pregnant (yeah!) and if my daughter got pregnant we’d go so far as to take her and her child in. It’s not all black and white, not all “my way or a pair of scissors to the baby’s skull”. And, just for good measure: condom condom condom abstinence abstinence abstinence. There, that was easy. haha

        • Defamate

          So you whine about how you are a poor helpless victim and then you slur the disabled? You don’t want people to be ‘misandrist’ yet you mock mental illness? Glass houses, danny

          • lady_black

            I am NOT mentally ill.

          • Defamate

            I know. The point was to show that he was ableist – it had nothing to do with you. He was mocking mental illness.

          • Dan

            Wait…. so Dafamate is calling lady_black mentally ill, and calling anybody who takes medication “mentally ill”? That’s pretty cold, man. People can be on meds for any reason (blood pressure, hormone imbalance, etc), but it doesn’t make them mentally ill.

          • Defamate

            You are not convincing anyone with that.

          • Dan

            I’m sure not, just having fun. But, for the record, “take your meds” is an expression for “don’t freak out”, etc. It doesn’t imply somebody is mentally ill.

          • Defamate

            It is used to belittle your opponent. Especially helpful way to accuse women of being emotional.

          • expect_resistance

            Like take a valium? That’s a drug for mental illness. Once again you’re not fooling anyone.

          • ansuz

            What planet are you from? “Take your meds” is a direct reference to psychiatric medication; what other kinds of (prescribed/correctly used) medications make somebody likely to freak out if that person doesn’t take them?
            Personally, I don’t find it offensive because being mentally ill is not actually correlated with being a sloppy thinker or a terrible person. That doesn’t mean, though, that you shouldn’t know what you’re saying: when you use that expression, you are implying that the person you are talking to is mentally ill.

          • Dan

            Ya, could be. And I guess there is a fine line between genius and insanity, as they say. Hey – every time I click “refresh” on my email I get a dozen or more emails about this open post. I’m gonna bow out here. (Ya, if you want to say you sent me away like a dog with his tail between his legs that’s fine :-) Have a good one.

          • colleen2

            No, you sniveling little liar. “Take your meds” is a dismissive and abusive and it is used to imply that the person you’re responding to is out of touch with reality. You use it to avoid answering the excellent questions and observations of the women you’re trying to verbally abuse and control.

          • expect_resistance

            We know what it usually means. Duh.

          • HeilMary1

            But you libel women who have self-defending abortions as crazy baby killers.

          • lady_black

            Not misandrist either.

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks. I may have a mental illness but I’m not insane. I’m so sick of hearing a slam as “Take your meds.” *sigh*

          • Dan

            Sorry – I’m stuck in the 90’s. I am on medication for it, though.

          • fiona64

            I don’t think they have medication for what’s wrong with you …

          • Dan

            Done? :-)

          • fiona64

            Oh, not even remotely.

          • Dan

            Then continue on. By all means sometimes it’s best just to let it out and speak your mind instead of beating around the bush and sugar coating things all the time. If more people would just do that, then politics and hot button social issues certainly wouldn’t be so polarizing.

          • fiona64

            Oh, thank you, massa …

          • Dan

            :-) I’ve spent well too much time on this thread today, so I’m gonna get outta here. Appreciated the debate / alternative viewpoint, fiona64, even if we can agree to disagree on this one. (I think we both knew from the get-go we wouldn’t change the other persons mind) Have a good night.

          • fiona64

            If you had two brain cells and a firing synapse, you’d understand a) how wrong your position is and b) how clear it is that you’re leaving because you can’t handle the cognitive dissonance of your lies being exposed.

            Rock on. Don’t let the door hit you.

          • colleen2

            No kidding. I am so glad that conservative ‘men’ aren’t abusive bullies.

          • HeilMary1

            “Mental illness” is a misused label for blaming abuse survivors who tell embarrassing truths.

        • lady_black

          Easy. And clueless. Also classless.

        • expect_resistance

          That’s a simplistic exaggeration.

          • Dan

            What is? The scissor thing? Google “Kermit Gosnell” and you’ll see that it’s not. No, I won’t dwell on ol’ Kermie, but I will say that his clinic existed when abortion is touted as being “safe, legal, and rare”. Not safe, certainly not regulated. The various health agencies turned to look the other way.

          • Defamate

            I am glad that you brought gosnell up. Once abortion is illegal there definitely won’t be a proliferation of such illegal clinics.

          • Dan

            I think you’ve been duped by liberal fear mongering. Abortion will likely never be illegal, but I’d like to think that at some point we will look back at now as a “dark period of human history” in which we used abortion primarily as birth control.

          • Defamate

            Citation needed.

          • HeilMary1

            Because you pedophile priests kept contraception criminal or unaffordable.

          • Dez

            Gotta disagree Mary. I blame the whole conservative Christian right wing that is trying to turn the US into a theocracy where non-Christians, women, and gays will be treated as second class citizens.

          • HeilMary1

            Pedophile priests love useful fools and big tents. The non-Catholic antis do seem to quote Catholic blather on anything sexual.

          • expect_resistance

            It’s the patriarchal Christian view of women. Gender oppression is not exclude to the Catholic Church. The Christian right marginalizes us as the “other.” They deem their oppress acts as moral and an entitlement of religious freedom.

            I don’t want to live under a theocracy. I’ll fight their bull$hit and oppression.

          • Dan

            I don’t agree with that either, HeilMary1. (but for the record I am not Catholic, nor a pedophile priest). Have a good night.

          • expect_resistance

            You don’t to be Catholic to see how the Catholic Bishops are trying to influence politics and restrict access to reproductive healthcare.

          • expect_resistance

            Supporters of abortion do not support a rogue abortion provider that harms women. That’s why he is a criminal and in jail.

            I don’t like the saying “Safe, legal, and rare.” That statement stigmatizes abortion. I would consider myself a “reproductive freedom fighter.” I favor abortion on demand and without apology. We don’t need to have a reason to have an abortion, only that we want to end a pregnancy.

          • Dan

            Well, lets talk about that. Who ended up busting Gosnell after numerous complaints from patients and previous employees to local healthcare oversight officials went unanswered due to political reasons (i.e. their support of abortion)? It was the FBI. (What other “medical procedure” ends up having to get regulated by the FBI?) The horrors there went on way too long. I’m not for unwanted pregnancy, either, but there are better ways.

          • expect_resistance

            He was also indicted for illegal drug charges which is a big “no no” for the FBI.

            “Gosnell pleaded guilty to conspiracy to distribute controlled substances, including oxycodone, alprazolam, and codeine; distribution and aiding and abetting the distribution of oxycodone; and maintaining a place for the illegal distribution of controlled substances.

            Gosnell wrote fraudulent prescriptions for thousands of prescription pills and the frequently-abused syrups Phenergan and Promethazine with Codeine, to drug “seekers,” who met with Gosnell briefly for a cursory exam or no exam.”

          • Dez

            Actually if you check this website there is numerous reports about Gosnell. Force birthers like you are making more of these clinics by shutting down the good clinics with unnecessary regulations that are targeted to shut them down. You have no one to blame but yourself when women start dying and their families are left with no mothers and wives.

          • Dan

            Yes, there are reports now. But numerous complaints / reports from patients / staff were ignored for way too long. And enough of the fear mongering, “when women start dying and their families are left with no mothers and wives”. puuuuleeeeaaase.

          • Dez

            Yes I understand you do not care about women especially those who do not fit your stereotype of what women should be. We already know the force birthers agenda is to oppress women and their reproduction using Christian indoctrination and false science. But I guess poor women of color are no concern of yours when they being butchered in back alley abortion clinics because they had no where else to go.

          • Defamate

            But I guess poor women of color are no concern of yours when they being butchered in back alley abortion clinics because they had no where else to go.

            If poor women of colour have problems, it’s their own damn fault. Remember wolfcat? I read her comment history. She claims to be black, from the inner city, lost virginity at 12, pregnant at 14, grew up in extreme Christian household with mom who had 3 abortions and somehow wolfcat managed to have two kids, become a lawyer, and own TWO 5 bedroom houses! Apparently she also started reading really early, and was real good with a dictionary!

            She has also claimed that:

            8wk embryos can feel pain and suffer
            20wk and below fetuses can stroke and hug one another in the womb
            childbirth is only slightly uncomfortable, and that sex during birth can be wonderful????

            She has logic and science. And we are hysterical dummies.

            Anyways, do you believe her story? Oh yeah, all her friends had similar successful lives – one had 3 kids, and managed to get a BA.

          • Jennifer Starr

            But then she said in a post on our board that she didn’t get pregnant too young–Kyrie needs to get her stories straight, I think.

          • Dez

            LOL. It’s like they really believe their own bullshit. I blame it on Christianity. It doesn’t teach critical thinking and you get people like wolfcat incapable of learning what the facts are.

          • Defamate

            Oh yeah, and she also suffered from *extreme* abuse, but managed to rise above it all and become a self-important Randian.

            So why can’t other women be as successful? Why do they have to kill their baybeez?

            Oh, and she claims to be an atheist. Hence the ‘I am logic’ meme.

          • fiona64

            Oh, gawd, one of those.

            You can always tell a Randtard, but you can’t tell them much …

          • Defamate

            She hasn’t come right out and said it…but you know it’s there.

          • Defamate

            I see that you’ve met ockraz over on Permission to Live.

            He is an atheist and only has misogyny to back up his pro-life position. Also has a degree in philosophy (so loves word games)

            So far he has:

            1) compared Marlise Munoz to a fishbowl that merely needs to have food dumped in it periodically for the fish

            2) agreed that pregnancy is really really tough and a severe hardship, but hey, life trumps suffering, and besides, women asked for it when they had sex (put the innocent human being in harm’s way)

            3) ‘the bed is made’ – ‘the gravid’s body accepts the intruder, therefore, it isn’t an intruder’ – sound rapey to you ? (and women are mere gravids now, eh?)

          • fiona64

            Gravid must be his fancy-dancy term for EasyBake Oven (and yes, I know what it really means, LOL).

          • Defamate

            I looked it up. Pretty dehumanizing. But this is how he thinks of women. Atheist lifers don’t have god to blame for their misogyny.

          • Dez

            Yet Rand Paul would be against the civil rights act because it would go against the rights of business owners. No concern over the rights of blacks. I’m atheist too so that means I must be logical too. LOL

          • Renee Goodwin

            Ya got to love their theory that economic and social pressure would “punish” the businesses that discriminated, I haven’t seen that much manure in one place since my last trip out to the countryside when they were spreading animal manure over the fallow fields to fertilize them

          • lady_black

            I think she was speaking of Ayn Rand, the late author, and famous sociopath. But Rand Paul is close enough. I don’t think he has as high an IQ, but he’ll do in a pinch. ; )

          • lady_black

            Sex during childbirth? Yechhhh! I don’t think that’s recommended but what kind of sick f&^% would even think of such a thing?

          • Dan

            Dez, poor women of color are the biggest victims of this all. Look up the statistic for the abortion-to-pregnancy ratio in some of New York cities. Is there any reason for their abortion rate to be that high? Why are they not offered birth control at reduced-cost / free so they don’t have to keep getting butchered in back alley abortion clinics?

          • fiona64

            I don’t know, Danny-boy. Why don’t you ask some of your fellow conservative males, who are creating TRAP laws and other barriers to service?

          • Dez

            Maybe because the science deficient right wing Christians keeps promoting abstinence only in schools instead of comprehensive sexual education that actually would reduce abortions and unwanted pregnancies. But force birthers are not looking to reduce abortions. They are trying to push Christianity and it’s agenda instead of what is best for women like accurate information about their reproduction. You only care about black women when you want to take our rights away. Do not act like you give a damn. Force birthers could care less about black women.

          • Dan

            So we’re pulling the “you don’t agree with me so you’re racist card”, eh? Strong work. If you do a little research you’ll see there are many Christian pregnancy-crisis centers out there that care for women (and men) who are dealing with unplanned pregnancies. And yes, they will even offer their services to people of color.

          • Defamate

            And they lie to women. They will tell women that birth control does NOT work. And they almost killed one of Jennifer Starr’s relatives and/or friends with their lies.

          • Dan

            Umm… it’s called a pregnancy crisis center. I’m quite certain that the men and women who are going there already know that whatever methods they were or were not choosing already didn’t work.

          • Defamate

            No, they aren’t even trained in medicine, dude. They lie to women and give the wrong medical advice.

          • Dez

            You who I like to get medical advice from? Doctors that have degrees not Christians busybodies that try push their agenda.

          • fiona64

            I’ll take “Dan is a deliberately disingenuous tool” for $1,000, Alex.

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t get me started on the SNL versions of Jeopardy!

          • goatini

            They regularly LIE to the women who try to escape from their vicious snares, telling them that (1) they’re not as far along as they thought they were, or even (2) they’re not pregnant at all. And by the time the victim finds out she’s been lied to, the 1st trimester is over.

          • lady_black

            Buy a clue! They don’t have any medical licensed personnel in those snake pits.

          • Dez

            Did I say that? Nope. I just said you have no concern about the lives of black women. CPCs are liars that give women inaccurate medical advice despite not having medical personnel on staff. They use these places to push their Christian doctrine instead actually helping especially if you are not a Christian or married.

          • fiona64

            If you do a little research you’ll see there are many Christian
            pregnancy-crisis centers out there that care for women (and men) who are
            dealing with unplanned pregnancies. And yes, they will even offer
            their services to people of color.

            And they are known to lie to women. http://www.salon.com/2013/06/04/reddit_targets_crisis_pregnancy_center_over_deceptive_anti_choice_practices/

          • Dan

            Send me an unbiased URL and I’ll keep reading.

          • Ivy Mike

            You pipe in a cite from the FRC, of all places, and you have the nerve to demand an “unbiased” source? To quote you, puuuhhhhlleeeze!

          • Dan

            hehe – Well, as I mentioned on my other post, I had no idea who that organization was. I just picked the first link. And yes, I’ll give you credit as I ran a play from the Ivy Mike playbook when I also requested an unbiased source. I’m gonna bow out of here, Ivy Mike, as I’ve spent too much time here today. Have a good night.

          • Ivy Mike

            Actually, Dan, I checked your first three sources. ALL of them were extremist, anti-gay organizations actively fighting gay rights.

            Excuse me for thinking that your enthusiastic use of them was deliberate. It’s so rare, after all, that a forced-birther is also homophobic, or gets his sole information from extremist websites instead of actual scientific research.

          • lady_black

            Yeah sure you didn’t. If that’s true, you’re not up to commenting here.

          • Jennifer Starr

            They told my aunt that a doctor could transport her ectopic pregnancy from her fallopian tubes to her uterus, which is not true. The volunteer was a young woman wearing a lab coat so my aunt mistakenly thought she was a medical professional (which is what they wanted her to think) and she almost died looking for a doctor who could do that before someone got through to her. Luckily she was able to abort the pregnancy before the tube ruptured and went on to have two more healthy pregnancies.

          • ldwendy

            Wow. Which CPC said that?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I actually don’t think they exist any more, at least not in our area. This would’ve been around 1991 or so.

          • lady_black

            That would be second degree murder. I’m glad your Aunt is OK. I would have shut that place down in a heartbeat.

          • fiona64
          • goatini

            Truth has a liberal bias.

          • ansuz

            “Christian pregnancy-crisis centres”
            D:

          • HeilMary1

            You mean the baby-stealing, -selling and -raping Catholic womb traffickers?

          • Renee Goodwin

            Dan, most of, if not all, of those “Christian pregnancy-crisis centers” are honestly a joke, the majority of them have absolutely no medical staff, they are not trained in HIPAA (Privacy Rule and Public Health Guidance) they are well known for lying to the people that come in looking for help, they make promises to the people coming in that they have no intention of keeping, and most of those centers are there to convert people to a certain set of religious beliefs.

            I will give you an example, lets say you have developed a backache that never goes away, the doctor you are going to is a bit of a quack, so he tells you the pain is in your mind, so you go to the therapist the quack referred you to, the first thing that the therapist says to you is “You will never get better unless you believe in Jesus”, now keep in mind, the whole time you were suffering from this backache, you actually had a bad disk between two of the vertebra in your mid-back, how would you feel about that therapist telling you that you won’t get better unless you believe in God in the exact same manner that the therapist believes?

            Wouldn’t you feel a little offended?

            Those crisis centers might have a sonogram machine, but the pregnancy tests that they offer are the same ones anyone could buy at almost any store, and since the person going to that center isn’t even going to see anyone that is licensed as any sort of a medical professional, no nurse practitioner, no physician, etc

          • lady_black

            Yep. Not even a nurse, much less a NP or PA. I’m a nurse and I would never work in one of those snakepits.

          • expect_resistance

            No.

            I suggest reading, “Fighting Black Anti-Choice Campaigns: Trust Black Women” by Loretta Ross is the National Coordinator of SisterSong Reproductive Justice Collective.

            From the article,

            Anti-abortionists misused data and facts. The cornerstone of their genocide theory is that black women have had fewer children over a number of years. In fact, women of all races have fewer children when they have increased access to reproductive health services and educational and job opportunities.

            We won by shifting the debate and correcting our opponents’ ‘facts’

            The reality is that black women have always controlled our fertility when we could. We brought knowledge from Africa that helped us practice birth control and have abortions. After the end of slavery, we were determined to end the forced breeding of our bodies, and we cut our birth rate in half in the first 40 years after the Civil War. We continued this intentional decline as part of our racial uplift strategy to have fewer children and provide more opportunities for the ones we did have.

            Black women, however, do have three times more abortions than white women, a statistic anti-abortionists used to demonize abortion providers. Black women have more unintended pregnancies, less access to contraception, are more vulnerable to childhood sexual abuse, and experience single motherhood more than our white counterparts. For reproductive justice activists, the solution is to help black women have fewer unintended pregnancies and to eliminate the obstacles that interfere with personal decision making.

            Another anti-abortion tactic is to claim that abortion clinics are “always” located in African American communities, especially by Planned Parenthood. In Georgia, we were able to easily refute this claim by presenting demographic data, proving that only four of the 15 abortion clinics in our state are in predominantly black neighborhoods.

            We addressed the story of Margaret Sanger and her allegedly racist agenda. We documented that African American leaders had worked with Sanger in the 1930s to ask for clinics in black communities. We challenged our opponents’ historical revisionism by citing famous leaders like Mary McLeod Bethune, W.E.B. Dubois, Walter White, Mary Church Terrell, Rev. Adam Clayton Powell, Sr., and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and organizations like the NAACP, the National Urban League and the National Council of Negro Women. We dared them to call these icons of the civil rights movement pawns of a racist agenda.

          • goatini

            “Christian pregnancy-crisis centers”

            The LAST place ANY pregnant woman should go. NO actual healthcare, and a boatload of theocratic misogynistic propaganda.

          • Renee Goodwin

            The abstinence only education is also creating a large uptick in the cases of teens that have and pass on stds, instead of having normal intercourse with protection, they engage in oral or anal sex without protection, because they are operating under a mistaken belief that alternate sex doesn’t count as sex, and they are so woefully uneducated about reproductive health that they don’t realize many of the stds can be caught during oral/anal intercourse

          • HeilMary1

            Because you fetal idolaters / PEDOPHILE PRIESTS are also criminalizing contraception!

          • Renee Goodwin

            Because GOP/Tea legislators shut down the funds to provide that birth control or refuse to let providers participate in the program, Texas is a good example of that, they will not let any family planning money go to Planned Parenthood and similar services, and I am talking about the separate clinics that PP has in the state that do not offer any abortion related services, which shut down many of the clinics that gave access to free or reduced wellness, std testing and treatment, prenatal health care (yes, they do that also) and of course access to birth control. The state did this by passing a law that said any provider (doctor/clinic/etc) that had any association with any provider that provided abortion services could not participate in the well woman program. Texas is not the only state that has frozen most of the clinics out of the programs that cover well woman type services (birth control, cancer screenings, pap smears, std testing and treatment, etc)

          • Defamate

            I am glad that you finally made your way to RHRC Renee. Too many great commenters are stuck on the dungheap that is yahoo.

          • HeilMary1

            You prefer women die by the millions from childbirth complications.

          • Dan

            Yes, since am not for abortion for the sake of birth control I clearly want millions of women to die. way to connect the dots.

          • Dez

            Nice straw man. This is why we can’t take force birthers seriously. You guys wouldn’t know facts if it hit you.

          • Dan

            How is that a straw man argument? How can one possibly address an illogical, stereotypical accusation such as Mary’s with an ounce of seriousness? Even staunch pro-lifers, with the exception of some very few extremists, are in favor of allowing abortion for medical reasons. To say somebody is pro-women’s death because they are pro-life is, in itself, the straw man argument. Dez – I’ve spent waaay too much time on this message board today. I’m gonna hang it up for the night and let you have the last word (just don’t call me a force birther, lol) Have a good night.

          • HeilMary1

            Cowardly you is running away because your ugly agenda has been unmasked.

          • Dan

            No, Mary. It’s called, “I’ve got other things to do”. Look, I knew that my opinion would not be well received at this website, but it never hurts to engage in a debate with those of differing opinions (if you can keep it somewhat civil). And I did come away from the discussion with a greater understanding of the pro-choice position. Thankfully, I’ve got thick skin and a warped sense of humor so off-the-cuff comments like yours made on the biased rhrealitycheck bully pulpit don’t get to me. I’ve likely spent upwards of 4 hours here today and that’s simply not an efficient use of my time. You didn’t really think either one of us was going to change the other’s mind; did you? If you want to think it is me running away like a coward that’s 100% fine with me. Either way, have a good night.

          • HeilMary1

            Amy Herbst’s childbirth flatulence and incontinence are why you fetal idolaters cheat on and trade in your brood mares. You’d get a male abortion in a minute if such humiliating injuries threatened your sex life, employment, and public appearances.

          • P. McCoy

            A better use of your time might be spent in fostering or adopting some American children instead of harassing women and engaging in fetal idol worship. At least you didn’t come to our fair Bay Area out here on the coast and pollute it with that so called march for life debacle. EWTN sponsors and supports that march. I wish pro-choicers could reciprocate by staging a 50 thousand march on their church in Alabama – for every so called dead fetus or bayyyybee imagethere shoe , we could have images of dead women suffering from pregnancies gone wrong. But those pharasees would probably show no pity but rather say the sinners got what was coming to them.

          • goatini

            EWTN, the fully funded propaganda arm of the Roman Catholic Church. Thank goodness the SF supes voted that there will NEVER again be any more vicious lying misogynistic banners allowed on Market St. I was SO steamed at Ed Lee and his flack calling them, ahem, “free speech”. If some homophobic nutters had asked for banners that said “Civil Rights Hurt Gays”, they would have been refused in a New York minute. But somehow, even in SF, hate speech was okay as long as it was against females. Thanks to the Silver Ribbon Campaign for forcing the supes’ vote.

          • Dez

            The straw man is women using abortion as birth control. No matter how many times you use that lie does not make it true. You are a force birther. You are pro woman death by illegal abortions because you do not understand pregnancy or abortion. Fuck you and thanks for showinghhow ignorant the Christian force birther movement continues to be.

          • redlemon

            Once you start going down the road of medical reasons, you start having issues. Such as, what counts as a medical reason? Most people will obviously say that the death of the woman counts. But what about possible death? What about significant loss of quality of life? What about moderate loss of quality of life? What about the inability to ever work in your chosen field ever again? Physical disfigurement? Psychological problems? Are you on medication that is kinda-sorta contraindicated in pregnancy or really, really contraindicated in pregnancy and do you need that medication to live? Is bedridden for 8 months a medical issue? Gestational diabetes? Previously gone-bad labors? Age? Previous postpartum depression or psychosis? Combination of the above?

            What counts as a medical reason? And who gets to decide for the woman if the reason is a valid medical reason?

          • HeilMary1

            Opera singer Amy Herbst’s flatulence and incontinence seem sufficient reasons to keep abortion legal. Dan would never stay married to a woman with those birth injuries.

          • expect_resistance

            Anti-choicers want to outlaw abortion and are opposed to most birth control. Google “The Pill Kills.” Basically anti-choicers are making an all out attack on women’s access to reproductive health care.

          • HeilMary1

            The hypocrite b*tch who runs “The Pill Kills” is local fascist Catholic Judie Brown, funded by sex offender priests like IRreverend Tom Euteneuer.

          • Renee Goodwin

            The fact that the complaints and reports were ignored is the fault of law enforcement and the State, there is not much a patient or employee can do about a doctor breaking the law other than to report it to the police or the state

          • Dez

            It was poor women of color so of course no one cared enough to find out what was going on. If it was affluent, wealthy white women, Gosnell would have been shut down at the first whiff of a crime.

          • expect_resistance

            So true.

          • fiona64


            Who ended up busting Gosnell

            Sweetie, RHRealitycheck had been reporting on this guy’s abuses for more than three years by the time he went to jail. Gosnell and people like him can only exist in the anti-choice fantasy world you inhabit, in which women are so desperate that they will go to quacks.

          • HeilMary1

            Pelvic-busting symphysiotomies in Ireland?

          • lady_black

            Well, now Danny Boy, let’s just take a quick look at the veracity of your statement. The FBI? I’m not sure. I believe it might have been the DEA. He was looked into finally, because in his front office, he was running a “pill mill.” That’s the DEA’s department, not the FBI. Apparently, who might be “getting stoned” matters a whole lot. Butchered women, not so much. He got caught because he was a greedy drug pusher. The fact that he was killing women and babies born alive was an afterthought. I have to really wonder at the desperation that would push women to tolerate such a skeevey operation as the one Gosnell was running. Yet he always had customers. As a health care professional I find that appalling. Do you THINK if they had someplace better to go, they would ever end up in the clutches of such a butcher?

          • ansuz

            *sigh*, Gosnell.
            I love it when people bring him up. He makes such a great case for making safe abortion easy to get.
            …because, I mean, people went to him despite knowing that he was sketchy as fuck and likely to kill or seriously injure them.

          • Defamate

            wb ansu

          • ansuz

            Glad to be back :)

          • HeilMary1

            Cancer-causing female fetuses made my best friend’s ENTIRE FACE ROT OFF BEFORE KILLING HER. How is that better than Gosnell?

          • colleen2

            If you weren’t so intent on domination and denigration you would have done some research on this blog before mansplaining. WE have covered the Gosnell case extensively. We are aware, You, OTOH, know little about the case, otherwise you wouldn’t be holding this disgusting felon up as an example of a typical abortion provider. He was anything but typical

        • HeilMary1

          And if your sister and daughter face bladder and bowel incontinence, multiple organ failures, face- and breast-rotting cancers, autoimmune diseases, and sepsis limb amputations if they continued their pregnancies, you’d make them suffer for their sexual sins?

          • Dan

            No, they’d likely be part of the <2% that have an abortion for medical reasons.

          • Defamate

            There is no such thing as a risk free pregnancy. Pregnancy is inherently unhealthy.

            And various medical problems – such as obstetric fistula and death, cannot be ‘prepared’ for – a healthy pregnancy can go from 0 to dead overnight.

          • Dan

            I hear you there, Defamate. Hey – every time I click “refresh” on my email I get a dozen or more emails about this open post. I’m gonna bow out here. (Ya, if you want to say you sent me away like a dog with his tail between his legs that’s fine :-) Have a good one.

          • Defamate

            Dan: go into Disqus notifications and turn off the notification for email

            It’s easy and will save you a headache, bro.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, ALL abortions are for medical reasons because ALL pregnancies cause some degree of incontinence and organ injuries, but you don’t give a hoot because you’ll never have a watermelon-sized fetus squeezing through and shredding your penis.

          • Defamate
          • HeilMary1

            Thanks! — that describes my mom’s problems and why she took it out on me, and why the Vatican treats mothers as “piles of dung”. I’ll bet there are millions of women suffering like this singer, and they end up divorced like the reclusive first wives of playboy Rethugs. This answers why these dumped first wives don’t rat out their “pro-life family values” husbands to the press! — they’re mortified that they will have loud smelly accidents!

            Before Dr. Marion Sims’ gruesome experiments on slave women, these injuries made lepers out of probably half of all women. We need to throw these injuries into wife-dumping Randall Terry’s face. Hollywood should make a movie about this singer. And if she lived in Ireland, she’d be denied contraception and sterilization.

          • HeilMary1

            Two words for your sister and daughter, jerk:

            Amy Herbst

          • HeilMary1

            And you haven’t mentioned a wife — did you kill her through childbirth or its delayed deadly complications like breast cancer?

        • Jennifer Starr

          You realize that the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, so the whole scissors/skull thing is basically just histrionics.

          • Dan

            Yes I do, Jennifer. Wasn’t trying to sensationalize things, but it does happen. Much like pro-choice individuals also tend to focus on the exceptions sometimes, too. Have a good night.

          • Dez

            Liar. Show where the pro-choicers do it? We have facts and you have lies.

          • Defamate

            Scissors in skull thing = partial birth, and that’s illegal. Also, those types of abortions so late term that they are done as a matter of medical necessity. Not convenience.

          • colleen2

            Wasn’t trying to sensationalize things,

            bullshit

          • Liora51

            Thank you. It gets so old to have them harping on that. And it is only real in their careful world.

        • Liora51

          Funny, for a while I was going to a mini-retreat at a local Catholic college. I eventually stopped because of the bizarre focus on abortion rather than prayer and meditation. But the last time I went, one of the women started to cry and shared that her daughter had gotten pregnant out of wedlock at 17 and the baby was now 18 months.

          She said this was harder than she had ever dreamed. The others told her to suck it up, that God would bless her and so on. Not one asked what they could do to help. When I asked what I could do, she just cried harder.

          I am sure she loved her daughter and grandchild. I hope her marriage survived, her other children made peace with it and so on. It probably turned out alright. But it is fooling oneself to believe it is easy.

        • Ella Warnock

          What meds would those be?

          • lady_black

            Thorazine, I hope. Or Warfarin. Lots and lots of Warfarin.

          • expect_resistance

            My person favorite, a large dose of Lorazepam.

          • lady_black

            He doesn’t strike me as an anxious type. He’s definitely out of touch with reality, though.

          • colleen2

            he is one of those men who is unable to imagine a human relationship not based on dominance and submission. He’s one of those sad little men who feels threatened by women who are not willing to adopt a placating, submissive role . He is so impotent and insecure that he trolls to anger and hurt women.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yesss.

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t you think “Warfarin” is a strange name for a medication? :)

          • lady_black

            LOL. That’s the generic name for Coumadin. It’s an anti-coagulant used to prevent heart attack/stroke causing embolisms, and to prevent clotting in people who have artificial heart valves. Curiously enough, it was developed as a rat poison. But doctors discovered that in tiny doses, it’s therapeutic for conditions that are prone to developing clots.

    • expect_resistance

      “A women is in an abusive relationship, decides to go off birth control, and is surprised to get pregnant?”

      Here’s the original quote:

      “I was once with an abusive partner … and we were always one part-time hourly paycheck away from being destitute. It wasn’t long before I could no longer afford birth control pills and as soon as I stopped taking them I got pregnant. My only reaction was terror. If I’d kept the baby, there’d be no chance of getting away from him. Keeping it wasn’t an option.” —Anonymous

      She may have been using another method of birth control after she stopped taking the pill we don’t know. Being that she was in an abusive relationship, its possible sex wasn’t consensual. We don’t know. I suggest you stop making stupid assumptions if you’ve never been in her position.

    • HeilMary1

      ALL abortions are for self-defending health reasons.

    • HeilMary1

      Two words for you, jerk:
      Amy Herbst

    • cvxxx

      Abortion is the right of the woman to make reproductive choices. Notice that taxpayer pay for the birth at $30000 a pop. The some complain about paying tax money for welfare.
      Effective birth control is now available. Much cheaper. So some do not like others having recreational sex. Most do enjoy sex.
      Reading deeper the problem for you is a changing society. One that is not they way you knew it with enslaved people to a social construct that not longer is needed.
      Freeing humanity is to you fearsome. It means the world has changed and the way it was isn’t any more. With technology it will change some more.

  • Ivy Mike

    I do wish that the forced-birthers would, against all hope, finally come to realize that “insurance coverage” does not equal “taxpayer-financed”. HR7 bans even privately-financed insurance policies from covering abortions. And silly me thought that conservatives didn’t want the government meddling in private businesses…

    When the issue is reproductive health care, there is no limit to the contradictions, mental gymnastics, and own goals that right wingers will entertain.

  • expect_resistance

    This bill is insanity. We already have the Hyde Amendment. This is clearly legislative oppression aimed at women.

  • xuinkrbin

    So, with the Hyde Amendment already being the law of the land, You have an objection to a law which applies that law’s principles in a more consistent manner?

    • fiona64

      This is nothing but creating additional barriers to care.

      Which you already know.

    • Ivy Mike

      That is most certainly not what they are attempting. If it were, then why the focus on banning private insurance coverage for abortion?

      Face it, this is nothing more than one more effort to make abortion more difficult, expensive, and humiliating to obtain.

  • Mel

    Sadly, most of the people I know who support this bill are also in support of more military. I guess we can’t allow women to use tax money to make a medical decision, but we can use tax money to send young men and women to kill and be killed in other countries. How “pro-life” is that?

    • colleen2

      As it turns out the ‘pro-life’ movement is enthused about killing many of the post born. They’re downright eager.

    • fiona64

      George Carlin said something to the effect that the pro-life movement is all about you until you’re actually born … after which you’re pretty much effed.

      There’s a shocking large contingent of self-proclaimed “pro-lifers” who favor the death penalty as well.

      • HeilMary1

        And murdering their kids AFTER birth.

      • colleen2

        It’s really shocking how many ‘pro-life’ folks are George Zimmerman/NRA supporters.

        • Defamate

          I came across one today, who, no shit, appears to be an aging hippie judging by his FB profile…who stated that:

          1) Margaret Sanger was a Nazi eugenicist

          2) He would fire anyone who has ever had an abortion because such people are not to be trusted with *any* sort of responsibility because they murder their own family members

          3) Obama is the anti-christ and a communist

          4) Creationist whackjob

          5) Painter

          6) looks like Grizzly Adams

          WTF???

          And I had a chat with a young woman earlier who said that a few years ago she found out that she was pregnant, and that she cried and cried, didn’t know what to do – but once she saw her ultrasound and heard the heart beat, it changed her mind and now she is a happy mom. Oh, and abortion is murder!

          I asked her what kind of punishment she feels she should have received if she had aborted at 6wks, right after that ultrasound. She said death! Hung by the neck until dead! Because abortion is killing a baby!

          Honestly, I don’t think these people are at all connected to reality. And I don’t really think she quite understands what it would mean to be faced with a noose around her neck and a hangman ready to pull the lever holding the trap door. They live in a fantasy world.

  • Tom Was Saying

    Can we be honest?

    Anti-Whites are flooding ONLY White countries with non-Whites, which will change them into minority White countries- Genocide.

    Anti-Whites don’t demand that Black countries be flooded with non-Blacks.

    Anti-Whites don’t demand that Asian countries be flooded with non-Asians.

    Anti-Whites say they are anti-racist, but what they are is anti-White.

    Anti-racist is just a codeword for anti-White.

    • Defamate

      So you’re spamming this allllll over the internet?

      ok…

      Flagged.

      • Tom Was Saying

        Again, all you Anti-Whites, like the old KGB or the Inquisition, is to put measures in place to silence opposition. It won’t work.

        Anti-racist is just a codeword for anti-White.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Flagged for being racist , off-topic spam. Read the actual article, as soon as you learn how.

          • HeilMary1

            Only cowardly ugly people wear those KKK hoods. Glad he was flagged.

        • expect_resistance

          You are disgusting! Fuck you!

  • Andrea

    I’m not trying to be ignorant or combative, but does anyone who chooses to have an abortion actually know what happens to the preborn baby during an abortion procedure? Have they watched a procedure or seen the baby’s body parts after removal? Or if the abortion fails, what happens to the baby? I just don’t get it. It’s all great in theory to talk about preventing unwanted pregnancies (and we should do what we can to help prevent them) but we’re aren’t talking about a tumor that can be & must be removed. Maybe some believe that I am attaching a sentimental value on something that doesn’t warrant it, but if we can value the preborn baby of an animal, what makes the preborn baby of a human less valuable?… there MUST be other, better, safer options that are more humane.

    • Jennifer Starr

      You do realize that the vast majority of abortions happen during the first trimester where the size of the fetus ranges from a quarter of an inch to two inches, right?

    • ansuz

      How many people who decide to have babies have watched a birth? How many people know what happens to the body during and after pregnancy? How many people know how many spontaneous abortions they’re likely to have while trying for a baby? How many people consider what happens to the ‘baby’ in a miscarriage or a stillbirth? How many people consider the possibility that their pregnancy will maim them?

      While I haven’t had an abortion, I know that if I were to get pregnant I wouldn’t hesitate for even a minute; I find pregnancy to be by far the more horrific option (and, yes, I know a fair bit about both).

      I reject any system of morality that obliges me to allow something or someone to use my body against my will.

      For the rest of your comment…

      “seen the baby’s body parts after removal?”
      I don’t value my species because it is my species; I value sapient beings (i.e., minds), and I value my species because it is convenient shorthand for ‘sapient beings’ (as it is currently the only known place where sapience can be found). If there’s no mind — and especially if there was never any mind — the body has virtually no moral value.

      “Or if the abortion fails, what happens to the baby?”
      As long as it’s out of the individual’s body, I’m not all that concerned.

      “we’re aren’t talking about a tumor that can be & must be removed.”
      I see no moral difference between excising a tumour and obtaining a first trimester abortion.

      “if we can value the preborn baby of an animal”
      Who values the ‘preborn babies’ of animals? In principle, I mean, as opposed to just looking forward to Lady Fluffball’s kittens.

      “there MUST be other, better, safer options that are more humane.”

      According to whom? The universe isn’t fair. Abortion is currently the only means of ending a pregnancy before viability. If you value both human embryos and bodily autonomy, this really, really sucks. I just find it hard to spare any sympathy for people in that position when their response to the moral quandary is to try to legislatively restrict my ability to exercise bodily autonomy (especially as they’re never going to eliminate abortion — even just elective abortion — that way; if I became pregnant, I’d try anything up to and including the probably-going-to-kill-me to make it stop, and I’m not the only one). Other routes — preventing pregnancy, working on artificial womb technology, and creating a society that better supports pregnancy and childrearing — are the ones that’ll actually do some good.

    • Defamate

      This is what at typical abortion looks like:

      http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

      • Andrea

        Or this… an 11 week old fetus. I’m not trying to be gross, but let’s be real & honest. About 20% of abortions are performed after 10 weeks gestational age. Surely a civilized society such as ours can have compassion on preborn babies and still support women.

        • Defamate

          91% are performed before 13 weeks
          61% before 9 weeks

          You talk about civilized society based on the pick factor of the procedure alone. That is not good enough. Open heart surgery is no civilized. Neither is birth. Or even a c section. By your logic, a late term abortion to save a woman’s life as she is bleeding to death should not be allowed because its gross.

          Grow up. Lots of things are unpleasant. That’s life. Banning something for that reason is childish.

          • Demopublicrat

            Yeah, like cross burning.

          • ansuz

            Care to explain this remark? It looks like a non sequitur to me, but I’m probably missing some context.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And this has what to do with what, exactly? Oh, that’s right. Nothing.

          • Demopublicrat

            “Grow up. Lots of things are unpleasant. That’s life. Banning something for that reason is childish.” We can do anything we want as long as we just label it “unpleasant”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I’m sorry. You’re still failing to make any sense.

          • Defamate

            five by five is the idiot that I managed to chase off a discussion on The Atlantic because every time she was losing the argument she would resort to late term abortion dismembers babyeeez!

            She’s not very bright.

            BTW, did you get a load of Gary Harper?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh yeah–he’s strange, for sure. And Sean Goerling–just wow.

          • Defamate

            They are mentally Ill. Speaking of which, PJ is claiming that “psychotic” lady black convinced three of pj’s friends to switch to Pro-life. I don’t think she knows what it means to be psychotic. According to her, all pro-choicers are psychotic. The dumbass.

          • ansuz

            “According to her, all pro-choicers are psychotic.”
            ._________.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And we now have confirmation that her ‘six kids’ story was partially borrowed from Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie.

          • Defamate

            I read about the 6 kids, but it never dawned on me that she got the idea from Brangelina…

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, she claims to have three adopted and three biological, which is exactly the same as Brad and Angelina. The only thing she changed was rockstar instead of actor.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Lady_black really has been holding her own very well on LAN.

          • Defamate

            She’s doing a great job. For a psycho!

            But in all seriousness,they keep trying to intimidate her, and straw man her position, and they faaail.

          • Demopublicrat

            Perhaps I should break out the crayons for you and Defecate.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A mite oversensitive, aren’t you?

          • Demopublicrat

            Right one is murder the other is just unpleasant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So if it’s murder, what do you think the penalty should be?

          • Demopublicrat

            I believe the legal system already has the penalty for murder covered.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So the woman should be charged with murder?

          • Demopublicrat

            Just what are you getting at?

          • Jennifer Starr

            it’s a fairly simple question. Should a woman who gets an abortion be charged with murder?

          • Demopublicrat

            Let’s see, a murder occurs when one takes a life… I would have to say yes.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So what about miscarriages? Should they be investigated by the police just like an accidental death would? If a woman has two cups of coffee or smokes a cigarette or works out a little too hard that day is it involuntary manslaughter?

          • Demopublicrat

            The elderly die all the time, should we pour acid on them and then dismember them for convenience sake? what if they stress you out, should we go ahead and kill them for “health” reasons?

          • Defamate

            Should miscarriages be investigated as possible crime scenes?

          • Jennifer Starr

            More histrionics, but you didn’t answer my question. Should miscarriages be investigated the way accidental deaths of born persons are?

          • fiona64

            You need to stop getting your medico-legal information from TV. Manslaughter and suicides are not murder, but they are still “taking a life.”

            You “take a life” every time you wash your hands and slough off cells.

          • Demopublicrat

            Sugar-coating is really a feeble attempt at justification, the hand washing thing lame to the nth degree.

          • goatini

            Safe, LEGAL pregnancy termination is (1) LEGAL, (2) the civil, human and Constitutionally protected right of female US citizens, and (3) did I mention LEGAL?

          • Demopublicrat

            Does one Supreme Court decision dictate the law of the land? The preborn have no Constitutional rights?

            Why do you people insist on your little weasel buzz phrases (pregnancy termination)? Trying to sleep better at night knowing you killed someone? Just call it what it is: child termination.

            What do you suppose they’ll call it when (like in countries all over the world) they start euthanizing the elderly because they serve no purpose? Be creative.

          • fiona64


            Does one Supreme Court decision dictate the law of the land? The preborn have no Constitutional rights?


            Why do anti-choicers ask such moronic questions?

          • Demopublicrat

            Why do pro-deather’s avoid answering by using insults?

          • fiona64

            Dimwit, if you spent 5 minutes in civics class you would know that yes, in fact, the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbitrator of law in this country. And that there is no such thing as “the pre-born.” When you afford “rights” to a fetus, you abrogate the rights of the born, sapient, sentient woman (you know, the person whom you try to erase from the picture). That’s called slavery.

            And you knew Every Single Bit of that, which is why I pointed out that your question is moronic.

          • Demopublicrat

            So then Article 1, Section 1 of the united states Constitution lies when it states: “ALL legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.”
            The woman had the right to abstain from the behavior that knocked her up in the first place, her rights end where another’s begin – denial still doesn’t change that.

          • Defamate

            And the fetus right to life ends where the woman’s right to her body begins.

            PS Fetii are not considered to be natural persons under the law and NEVER HAVE BEEN

          • goatini

            A single-celled organism does NOT erase the civil, human and Constitutional rights of a female US citizen.

          • goatini

            Coming here and insulting the essential civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy and personal bodily autonomy as guaranteed by the protections of the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment IS where all the insults BEGAN. By YOU.

          • goatini

            No such thing as “preborn”. You’re not “predead”.

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth.

            PS, The ACTUAL weasel buzz phrases used here were “preborn” and (ahem) “murder” (as applied to a safe, LEGAL minor outpatient procedure). I myself prefer to use accurate scientific and technical terminology.

          • ansuz

            “Murder” is a legal term and a value judgment. If you want your values to become law, you’ve got to justify them. Why am I not morally permitted to remove something from my body when I don’t want it there?

          • Demopublicrat

            If you don’t want to die don’t jump off that cliff, if you don’t want children, sterilize yourself – simple. Don’t condemn someone else to death for your sexual gratification.
            BTW Murder is already against the law.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sterilization can fail. And what about a woman who was raped or whose life or health is endangered?

          • Demopublicrat

            A hysterectomy wouldn’t fail.
            Rape? Go after the rapist, don’t kill an innocent human life. Health is endangered? Gee that happens all the time – especially if defined as “the woman may cry in 18 years”, but by all means let’s not try and save them both.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Wow–it’s so easy to be blase about the woman’s health and life, secure in the knowledge that you’ll never be in that situation. And for your information, a hysterectomy is not done as a sterilization procedure. It’s done for health reasons only. As for cases of rape, it’s not about ‘going after’ anyone it’s about whether a woman who’s been through an enormous trauma feels mentally and physically ready to go through a pregnancy which was forced upon her. If she wishes to do that, I support her completely, but she should not be forced.

          • Demopublicrat

            Like you are with the lives of others? It’s easy for you, you have already been born. Perhaps the hysterectomy is not done for the purpose of sterilization, yet it is most effective. As you put it is for health reasons – no more worries of a dangerous pregnancy.
            Abortions for in the case of rape are a miniscule number in comparison to those simply for convenience, you know – not wishing to take responsibility for the consequence of one’s actions. Again, it’s the rapist who’s guilty, not the innocent life that’s obliterated.

          • Defamate

            A fetus is neither innocent nor guilty. It’s a mindless body. And women have the absolute right to self-defense from *anything* that harms their health.

            You talk about punishing the rapist but you would force an 8yo girl to undergo a rape pregnancy. Sounds to me like you are for punishing the girl for being born with a uterus.

            Why do you hate women so much?

          • Demopublicrat

            “A fetus is neither innocent nor guilty. It’s a mindless body.” I think the same of you, is it alright if I dismember you?
            99% of abortions are not for rape, yet that seems to be all you can talk about, why do you hate children so much?

          • Defamate

            Its a fact that I am sentient and sapient. Its a fact that an embryo has no brain. People have brains. Embryos do not. Mindless bodies are not people.

          • goatini

            A fetus cannot, by necessity, be “innocent”. Innocence requires sentience.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one is required to give a reason for an abortion, so we don’t actually know the percentage. But the decision to carry the pregnancy or not should be left up to the woman who was raped. Only she can make that choice.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, they won’t do a hysterectomy so someone can avoid pregnancy. That’s not what a hysterectomy is for.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Given that a large number of rapes go unreported and no one is required to state the reason why they’re having an abortion, you don’t actually know that. Again, It’s not about innocence or guilt or punishing the rapist. That’s simplistic nonsense. It’s about whether a woman feels she can go through a pregnancy that was forced upon her. If she does, that’s fine. But it should be up to her.

          • ansuz

            Think from the perspective of someone relying totally on another person’s body. Would you want that person to be forced to continue to support you?

          • Ella Warnock

            Uterii and ovaries are only removed in cases of disease or disorder. Doctors will not remove healthy reproductive organs for contraception purposes. They will, however, perform vasectomies and tubal ligations. They are less likely to perform tubal ligations on nulliparous women than men who do not have offspring, the (misguided) idea being that women will always want babies, or want more, or want them with someone else. It’s apparently much more acceptable for a man to be uninterested in parenthood and for him to successfully act upon that desire. There are many women who are equally disinterested.

          • ansuz

            Actually, without a uterus, ectopic pregnancies are still possible.

          • Demopublicrat

            Simple – remove it all.

          • ansuz

            Removing the ovaries is equivalent to castration. Performing such an operation on someone just old enough to become pregnant when not medically indicated is invasive and dangerous, and likely to come with long-term health effects (as we would expect with the removal of a large portion of the endocrine system).
            Further, given the ages at which pregnancy becomes possible, you’re suggesting that we perform that on eight year olds.
            And beyond that, it’s not reversible, so those eight year olds, when and if they do decide they want to become pregnant, will not be able to.

          • Demopublicrat

            Just a tissue mass like any other, git ‘er done.

          • fiona64

            Tell you what; your testes are just a tissue mass like any other. You let us know when you’ve had them cut off, and then we can talk.

          • Defamate

            Yes, so you are saying that anyone born with a uterus should get it removed before puberty so as to avoid all forms of unwanted pregnancy.

            Does it hurt to be this dumb?

            And no, a majority of doctors will NOT remove a woman’s entire reproductive system, even if she asks. And you can bet that they won’t do it for a pre-teen. Furthermore, the surgery is quite dangeoous, and can lead to serious lifelong health effects.

            So what you are saying is, if someone is born with a uterus, too fucking bad, you’re having that kid. That’s what you get for being born female.

            I will ask. Again. Why do you hate women so so much?

          • Demopublicrat

            The procedure would save a great many lives.
            Again why do YOU hate children so much?

          • Defamate

            Actually, if every woman was sterilized in order to avoid pregnancy, no new lives would be created. All because you, in your idiocy, are demanding that every baby be born regardless of circumstances. Your view would result in fewer net births.

          • Jennifer Starr

            They will only do that in the case of medical conditions, such as cancer. No doctor will do a hysterectomy for sterilization purposes.

          • goatini

            And no more vasectomies, since males obtain that ONLY when they no longer want to sire progeny. Castration ONLY. Remove it all.

          • Defamate

            There is no such thing as a safe pregnancy. Pregnancy is NOT a state of wellness. If the pain and suffering that is inflicted on a woman by a fetus was inflicted upon her by any other means that person would be jailed for assault and attempted murder. You are engaging in special pleading for fetuses..

            “That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory
            distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.”

            Data modeling suggesting 21/100,000 US maternal mortality rate

            In 2004/2005, 1.7 million women per year suffered adverse health effects

            http://search.worldbank.org/data?qterm=us%20maternal%20mortality%20rate&language=EN

            http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/campaigns/demand-dignity/maternal-health-is-a-human-right/maternal-health-in-the-us

            http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

            http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/opera-singer-suing-hospital-episiotomy-left-her-severe-162302400.html

            Normal, frequent
            or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness
            common from first weeks)

            altered appetite
            and senses of taste and smell

            nausea and vomiting
            (50% of women, first trimester)

            heartburn and indigestion

            constipation

            weight gain

            dizziness and light-headedness

            bloating, swelling,
            fluid retention

            hemmorhoids

            abdominal cramps

            yeast infections

            congested, bloody
            nose

            acne and mild skin
            disorders

            skin discoloration
            (chloasma, face and abdomen)

            mild to severe backache
            and strain

            increased headaches

            difficulty sleeping,
            and discomfort while sleeping

            increased urination
            and incontinence

            bleeding gums

            pica

            breast pain and
            discharge

            swelling of joints,
            leg cramps, joint pain

            difficulty sitting,
            standing in later pregnancy

            inability to take
            regular medications

            shortness of breath

            higher blood pressure

            hair loss

            tendency to anemia

            curtailment of ability
            to participate in some sports and activities

            infection
            including from serious and potentially fatal disease

            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
            non-pregnant women, and
            are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

            extreme pain on
            delivery

            hormonal mood changes,
            including normal post-partum depression

            continued post-partum
            exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
            — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
            fully recover)

            Normal, expectable,
            or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse
            in younger women)

            loose skin

            permanent weight
            gain or redistribution

            abdominal and vaginal
            muscle weakness

            pelvic floor disorder
            (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
            and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
            incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
            the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

            changes to breasts

            varicose veins

            scarring from episiotomy
            or c-section

            other permanent
            aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
            by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

            increased proclivity
            for hemmorhoids

            loss of dental and
            bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

            newer research indicates
            microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
            mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications
            and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy

            spousal/partner
            abuse

            hyperemesis gravidarum

            temporary and permanent
            injury to back

            severe
            scarring
            requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)

            dropped (prolapsed)
            uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
            pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
            and enterocele)

            pre-eclampsia
            (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
            with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

            eclampsia (convulsions,
            coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

            gestational diabetes

            placenta previa

            anemia (which
            can be life-threatening)

            thrombocytopenic
            purpura

            severe cramping

            embolism
            (blood clots)

            medical disability
            requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
            many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
            or baby)

            diastasis recti,
            also torn abdominal muscles

            mitral valve stenosis
            (most common cardiac complication)

            serious infection
            and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

            hormonal imbalance

            ectopic pregnancy
            (risk of death)

            broken bones (ribcage,
            “tail bone”)

            hemorrhage
            and

            numerous other complications
            of delivery

            refractory gastroesophageal
            reflux disease

            aggravation of pre-pregnancy
            diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
            of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
            prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

            severe post-partum
            depression and psychosis

            research now indicates
            a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
            including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

            research also now
            indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
            in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

            research also indicates
            a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
            and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but
            serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy

            cardiopulmonary
            arrest

            magnesium toxicity

            severe hypoxemia/acidosis

            massive embolism

            increased intracranial
            pressure, brainstem infarction

            molar pregnancy,
            gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced
            cancer)

            malignant arrhythmia

            circulatory collapse

            placental abruption

            obstetric fistula

            More
            permanent side effects:

            future infertility

            permanent disability

            death.

            ___________

            Women have the right to self defense. If you think that fetuses are people, then treat them like people. The pain of childbirth, if induced by other means, would be considered TORTURE according to this: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

            Every pregnancy can end in death and disability for the woman. Even a so called ‘normal’ pregnancy can leave her dead at birth. Post Partum Hemorrhage can leave her bleeding to death and is the #2 killer of pregnant women. She can develop an auto-immune disease after birth – multiple sclerosis. She can develop post partum psychosis and depression. She can develop an obstetric fistula which can lead her to at the very least, incontinence, and the very worst, a colostomy bag for the rest of her life. Then we have diabetes…cancer…and that whole list up above.

            No one is required to risk their lives and health to save another. Why only pregnant women? Why do you hate women so much that you privilege a mindless fetus above their right to their health and future?

          • Demopublicrat

            Sterilization – simple, don’t delay.
            Ever see what happens in a car accident? I bet you think we should start murdering other drivers.

          • Defamate

            As has been repeatedly explained, sterilization is not a viable option. And no doctor will remove a girls entire reproductive tract on the off chance that she might get raped.

            Furthermore, many doctors will REFUSE to sterilize a woman unless she had already had two kids and is over 30.

          • Defamate

            A hysterectomy wouldn’t fail.
            Rape? Go after the rapist, don’t kill an innocent human life

            By your logic, all girls, if they don’t want to become pregnant through rape, should get their ovaries and uterus removed before puberty in order to avoid ‘killing an innocent life’ should they become pregnant.

            Rape victims have been as young as 8 you know. That’s what you are suggesting. Torturing little girls who didn’t have the forethought to have their entire reproductive system removed just in case they get raped and end up pregnant.

            What you are suggesting is that we punish women for the crime of being born with a uterus.

            I will ask, again, why do YOU hate women?

          • Demopublicrat

            Do these girls rape themselves? Why have rapes increased in recent years? Ah who cares, we’ll just murder the children so the young girls can live with the rape and the murder.
            Why do YOU hate children?

          • Defamate

            You are the one who hates children – especially if they happen to be 8 yo rape victims. How about letting them decide?

          • ansuz

            The more sophisticated data analyses point to rapes having decreased in recent years. There are still a lot of them, but they used to be pretty much everywhere; people just feel that it’s safe to talk about them, now.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually rapes have not increased. But the reporting of them has. And why would you force a young rape victim to carry a pregnancy against her will?

          • goatini

            Okay, so males should be castrated instead of receiving vasectomies. Because the former wouldn’t fail. Got it.

            And if the victim of a violent felony assault has the right to have bullets removed and wounds treated that were inflicted by the assailant, then they have the same right to have any OTHER method of bodily attack from an assailant’s weapon removed and treated. Why should innocent crime victims suffer thousands of times over, only to taint their family DNA with criminal DNA? Many mental illnesses are hereditary – how sick is it to sentence an innocent victim to perpetuate the DNA and mental illness of a violent sexual criminal?

          • ansuz

            Am I not permitted to fight back against someone trying to have sex with me if they bought me dinner?
            Murder is against the law by definition. In order for an instance of a human killing another human to be appropriately called murder, it must have been against the law.
            We don’t (well, technically) call it murder when Texas executes prisoners, for example. And we do have self-defence clauses. I fail to see how anybody can look at how dangerous pregnancy is and not say that yeah, stopping that at whatever stage is self-defence.

          • Demopublicrat

            “Am I not permitted to fight back against someone trying to have sex with me if they bought me dinner?” – Losing credibility fast, I never said anything about protecting oneself.
            The big bad baby was threatening you, is that it?

          • ansuz

            That is all abortion is.

          • Demopublicrat

            Infanticide. I suppose the mere mention of that word make you all giggly.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Infanticide can only occur with a born infant.

          • Demopublicrat

            The old mystical magical birth canal shtick doesn’t hold water, even your fairy god-mother would agree.

          • ansuz

            An infant does not suppress my immune system. A fetus does.

          • Demopublicrat

            Lame, a baby by any other name is still a human life.
            Like I said sterilization will prevent any immune system/baby issues.

          • Defamate

            Ad has been repeatedly explained to you, demanding that all women be effectively castrated if they don’t want to ever have an unwanted pregnancy is ludicrous.

            And ‘ human life’ does not have the right to assault another in order to sustain its life.

          • fiona64

            If you know of anyone committing infanticide, contact the local police department.
            Hint: all infants, everywhere, have been *born.*

          • Demopublicrat

            Back to the mystical, magical birth canal fairytale again.

          • goatini

            But since no infants are ever harmed in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal pregnancy termination, since all infants have already been born, you just seem like a nitwit who gets off on harassing female US citizens over their civil, human and Constitutional rights.

          • Defamate

            If an embryo was an infant it could be removed at any stage and be given up for adoption.

          • goatini

            I’d never give selfish greedy vultures my DNA.

          • ansuz

            …and I’m guessing you didn’t read past that in my comment.

          • Demopublicrat

            Since pregnancy is so awful – again: STERILIZATION.

          • Defamate

            You expect potential rape victims to get stetilize d before puberty so they can avoid a rape pregnancy that you would have forced on them.

            Are you really this dumb or just pretending?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sure since every woman is psychic and able to anticipate any potential pregnancy issues–oh wait, no they’re not. And many women choose to carry difficult pregnancies and take the risks, but again, that is their choice. And it’s not a choice that should be forced on someone. When you get to carry a pregnancy, you get the make the call on how much risk you’re willing to assume–because those decisions will be yours. Until then, leave that decision up to the woman who is actually pregnant.

          • goatini

            Yes, it is quite possible that a pregnancy can be a fatal threat to the ONLY person and the ONLY citizen in the equation – the living, breathing pregnant WOMAN.

            It is also quite possible that pregnancy can be, and more often than you know IS, imposed on a woman against her will.

          • fiona64

            Thanks for betraying your ignorance once again. Even surgical sterilizations can, and do, fail — and not all physicians will perform them on women under a certain age or without a certain number of children.

          • Demopublicrat

            Still safer than abortion, have you signed up for your procedure yet?

          • fiona64

            Not that my medical decisions are any of your business … but I have a 27 year-old son (from a pregnancy that almost killed me) and a 21-year-old tubal ligation. I am fully aware that said procedure can fail … and if it does, there will be an abortion so fast that your ignorant head will spin right off your shoulders. I will NOT risk my life again for a pregnancy. Period.

          • goatini

            Obtaining a safe, legal pregnancy termination means that a female US citizen is availing herself of her rights to not become a parent NOW. She has the RIGHT to become a parent when, where, why, how, and with whom she chooses.

          • fiona64

            Murder is the unlawful taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought. Since abortion is legal, and a fetus is not a person, you fail.

            Cross-burning is an act of terrorism, not a mere “unpleasantry.”

            But hey, you rock on with your blissful ignorance.

          • Demopublicrat

            Oh, my bad, I forgot the baby has to pass through the magical birth canal to become a person.

            Cross burning has no victims (unlike abortion) and is legal, but hey you rock on with your bloodthirsty ignorance.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you wish to burn a cross on your own property, it would be legal. Stupid, but legal. But racists burn them on the property of people they wish to terrorize, which is not legal.

          • Demopublicrat

            Right, it would be better to cover in an acidic solution and dismember – that’s not terrorism.

          • ansuz

            Terrorism requires the ability to feel terror in order to have a victim. Fetuses don’t have that.

          • Demopublicrat

            They feel the pain of you death sentences being carried out, and their life ends – which is worse some fear or a painful death?

          • ansuz

            I’m just correcting your terminology. Abortion is not terrorism against fetuses, because fetuses cannot feel terror.
            And the evidence, iirc, does not actually point to fetuses being able to feel pain. So, yanno, fetuses get neither fear nor a painful death.

          • Demopublicrat

            I have video of an in-utero baby being “aborted” (murdered) and it most definitely is experiencing pain, denial and conflict of interest “studies” don’t change that. How much money is made every year filling up the dumpsters and selling the parts?

          • Defamate

            What is this video called?

          • fiona64

            Obviously, it’s the debunked “Silent Scream.”

          • fiona64

            “The Silent Scream” is fake.

            BTW, response to noxious stimulus? Is not indicative of experiencing pain. Pithed frogs in a lab can be made to respond to stimulus, and they can’t feel a thing.

          • Defamate

            Babies born without brains can also react to noxious stimuli. But they can’t feel a thing because they have no cortex – which is where pain is processed. If you are talking about the silent scream, the video is a fake. The fetus brain is too immature to feel anything, and the fetus is sedated while in the womb. The fetus in that vid was also about an inch long, and completely unaware of its surroundings. The people who made the video sped up the film to make it look like the fetus was reacting to stimului.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The Silent Scream has been debunked repeatedly over the years.

          • fiona64

            Most abortions take place at the embryonic stage. Embryos lack the ability to feel pain. The myelin sheath is not complete until so far into pregnancy that abortion absent medical necessity does NOT happen … and, since anesthesia is sytemic (i.e, when the pregnant woman is anesthetized, so is the fetus), the fetus STILL doesn’t experience pain.
            What is it with the anti-choicers and their complete lack of comprehension where biology is concerned?

          • Demopublicrat

            Biology according to who, those making millions from the murders? You pro-deathers really try so hard to distance yourselves from your deeds by using terms like “fetus”, “embryo”, etc. – it doesn’t change the cold hard facts.

          • Defamate

            Biology and neuroscience demonstrating that the embryonic brain is far too under developed to even experience consciousness and by extension pain. Plus, sedation whilst in the womb due to low oxygen content. A fetus is not aware of its surroundings. It lacks the capacity

          • fiona64

            You’re laughable. “Fetus” and “embryo” are correct medical terminology. You anti-choicers seem dreadfully offended by the same words contained in pregnant women’s medical records. Why is that?

            However, I will answer your ridiculous question. Biology according to physical *reality.* No myelin sheath, no pain.

          • goatini

            The REAL big money is in the billion-dollar global human trafficking adoption syndicate. Inventory produced in gestational slavery, inventory provided free of charge to the syndicate, sold to the highest bidder. And most of the syndicate operates tax-free under some “religious” aegis. What a racket – no wonder they fight women’s rights worldwide, tooth and nail.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry that medical terminology bothers you so much, but those are the right words.

          • goatini

            Sorry, but no. Products of conception at the stage of development during which the vast majority of safe, legal pregnancy terminations occur are not biologically capable of “feeling” anything.

            And as for the very tiny fraction of safe, legal later-term terminations that are tragic losses of very much wanted pregnancies that are incompatible with life, and/or a grave danger to the pregnant woman, the fetus is euthanized prior to the procedure. No, not pleasant, but all other alternatives for such overwhelming tragic circumstances are far, far worse.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Saline hasn’t been used in decades. And most abortions take place in the first trimester when the fetus ranges from a quarter of an inch to 2.1 inches.

          • Demopublicrat

            Semantics, doesn’t change the fact somebody dies – painfully. I suppose the physical damage occurs afterward when the provider gets bored.

          • Defamate

            No pain because a fetus is utterly incapable of feeling pain.

          • goatini

            Only ONE patient, ONE person, ONE citizen, and ONE entity with rights in a safe, legal pregnancy termination – the living, breathing WOMAN.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, not semantics, and the fetus in the first trimester does not have a functioning nervous system.

          • Defamate

            1) Fetuses cannot feel pain. They are sedated and anesthetized while in the womb, furthermore, their brains are not yet complete enough to transmit let alone xperience pain signals. They are nothing more than mindless bodies when the majority of abortions occur:

            http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2811%2900885-2

            http://www.rcog.org.uk/news/rcog-release-rcog-updates-its-guidance

            2) What a typical abortion looks like:

            http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

            91% of abortions are before 13 weeks
            61% are before 9 weeks

            The abortions that occur before 9 weeks are all medication – which means an induced miscarriage. The embryo is expelled whole (and is smaller than a pea).

            For 13 weeks you are looking at vacuum aspiration – which just sucks it out – again, whole.

            Later abortions do involve taking it out in pieces – but, if every abortion was by a c-section you’d still whine about it, wouldn’t you? So drop the pretense that you oppose abortion because feti are tortured.

          • Demopublicrat

            Re-read your own contradictory post. One photo compared to thousands showing body parts doesn’t prove anything, it may help you sleep better at night, but doesn’t change the reality of butchery for fun and profit.

          • Defamate

            So would you oppose abortion if every abortion was a c-section? Where the only butchery was of the female body?

          • fiona64

            I forgot the baby has to pass through the magical birth canal to become a person.

            There is no baby until after birth, but congratulations on demonstrating that you can be taught!

            Cross burning has no victims

            Is *that* what they tell you during your Stormfront meetings?

          • Demopublicrat

            “…demonstrating that you can be taught!”
            So what are you going to teach me about next, unicorns and fairies? We already covered the super magical birth canal.

          • fiona64

            Well, there it is … the typical level of discourse I’ve come to expect from the anti-choice. Personhood is a *legal* status, and yes, pookie, it requires *birth* in order to accrue.

          • Demopublicrat

            So you pro-deathers would be fine with it if we changed your legal status and murdered you? Hitler did just that with whole groups of people, must be ok with you, honey.

          • fiona64

            You would be more than happy to change the legal status of every woman to *slave.* That’s quite obvious, since you want to abrogate women’s rights in favor of those of non-persons.

            And BTW? Your Godwin (duly noted) refers to persons. HItler was just as anti-choice as you. He forced abortion on women he deemed unworthy to gestate, and forced pregnancy on women whom he deemed appropriate. Look up “lebensborn.” You might just learn something.

          • goatini

            As the child of a survivor, I find your comment repellent. Especially since YOU advocate changing the legal status of female US citizens, to that of livestock.

          • goatini

            Correct. Rights accrue to persons and citizens at birth.

          • Defamate

            The point, dumbass, is that if you are basing your entire argument on ‘ooo that’s gross’ then you don’t have an argument.

            Open heart surgery is gross.
            Lasik eye surgery is gross.
            Birth is gross!

            Let’s ban all of them, they are unpleasant!

          • Demopublicrat

            “Grow up. Lots of things are unpleasant. That’s life. Banning something for that reason is childish.”
            Apparently someone changed their tune.

          • Defamate

            No, I think the problem is that you’re just dumb.

          • Demopublicrat

            So.. you’ve got nothing, check.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Andrea writes: Or this… an 12 week old fetus. I’m not trying to be gross, but let’s be real & honest.

            I always find it hilarious that ‘pro-lifers’ think that we’ve never seen these pictures before–I guess we’re supposed to go ‘OMG, it’s a baybee!’ or something? It’s more than a little patronizing.

          • Defamate

            Miscarriages are gross. They should be illegal.

            And yes, we are all woefully ignorant of embryology. The pro life manual says that every conception is a homunculus.

    • goatini

      There is no such thing as a “preborn baby”. You are not a “predead corpse”. Stop the deliberately fake-sentimental ignorance!

    • fiona64

      I’m not trying to be ignorant or combative,

      Yes, actually, you are.

    • HeilMary1

      Abortion is better than suffering LETHAL face cancer that slowly murdered my best friend and permanent incontinence that ruins millions of women.

    • P. McCoy

      Just follow a time well said adage for your and your own sense of safer options. If you are against abortion THEN DON’T HAVE ONE. And mind your own business about what other women wish do about what goes on in their not YOUR body.