Anti-Choicers Drop the ‘Life’ Pretense, Increasingly Admit They’re Angry About Sex


Is the anti-choice movement giving up the pretense that it has no interest in policing women’s sexuality and only opposes abortion rights because of fetal life? While the rote use of the word “life” as a code word to describe a series of anti-woman and anti-sex beliefs is probably going nowhere, there does seem to be a bit more willingness among anti-choicers lately to admit that what really offends them is that women are having sex without their permission.

A report examining the demographics of women who have abortions, using self-reported numbers from the National Center for Health Statistics, was recently presented at a Family Research Council conference. Their conclusion? “OMG sluts!”

The researchers—a term that needs to be used somewhat loosely, due to the extensive statistical distortion employed in this paper—were incredibly intent on portraying abortion as a product of sexually loose women on the prowl. They mostly succeed in portraying themselves as remarkably prudish and out of step with mainstream realities. “Almost 90 percent of reported abortions are procured by women who have had three or more (male) sexual partners,” the researchers write, clearly expecting the audience to reel in terror at the idea that a woman might not marry the first boy she kisses. Which means that most women having abortions are … average. Women generally report having had about four male sexual partners, but social scientists are inclined to think the number is probably higher than that, because men report having a much higher average number of partners, and that discrepancy is mathematically impossible. Indeed, one study showed that by telling women that they’re hooked up to a lie detector, the number of sex partners they will cop to goes up. Slut-shaming, such as the kind produced by this report, causes women to round down.

“The fraction of women reporting abortions is far larger among women with multiple sexual partners than among monogamous women,” the study authors write. It’s a classic example of how this paper, which is supposed to be a study, is actually full of misrepresentations and dishonest number-massaging. After all, “monogamous” and “has had multiple partners” are not mutually exclusive groups. No doubt the study authors mean “has only had one partner ever” as their definition of monogamous, a strange and sloppy definition that would mean that a woman who lost her virginity during a one-night stand yesterday is more “monogamous” that a woman whose second marriage has lasted 30 years.

“Eighty-three percent of women who report having an abortion have cohabited at some time,” they write, clearly expecting the audience to find cohabitation to be a shockingly risqué behavior. Again, this makes women who have abortions average. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, “[M]ost young couples live together first before entering marriage.” By the time they turn 30, three-quarters of women have cohabitated.

It’s almost comical how out-of-touch the authors are with their ready assumption that extremely normal and even boring sexual behavior is scandalous. But, more importantly, this report is indicative of a willingness on the part of anti-choice activists to be open about their hostility to female sexuality, an openness that was, just a few years ago, angrily denied.

Don’t get me wrong; some people are still devoted to the notion that the anti-choice movement has nothing to do with sex or gender. Recently, in Slate, Will Saletan insisted that being “pro-life” had nothing to do with negative attitudes about female sexuality, because the majority of people who tell a pollster that they’re “pro-life” also support legal contraception. What he neglected to mention is that the majority of people who say they’re “pro-life” also support legal abortion, suggesting that the label “pro-life” is a meaningless term that people just adopt because it sounds good.

To know what the actual anti-choice movement is about, you need to look at what its members do, not what some random people say about how they label themselves. And, increasingly, anti-choice activists are free about their larger objections to women being able to choose non-procreative sex. Indeed, when I first started writing on the topic of reproductive health care, even the slightest intimation that anti-choicers have a problem with female sexuality was enough to cause conservatives to cry foul and howl about how they don’t care what you do in bed, it’s about “life,” and blah blah blah.

Now we have Mike Huckabee shamelessly ascribing the desire to have insurance cover birth controlsomething that it has always done, by the way—to women’s inability to “control our libido.” Now anti-contraception protesters are a major part of the March for Life, making it undeniable that “life” is just a code word for efforts to punish and control women by taking away their ability to manage their fertility. Far from denying the anti-sex motivations of their movement, anti-choicers are beginning to own it loudly and proudly.

Why now? Probably because they think they’re winning. The massive shutdown of abortion clinics across the country because of medically unnecessary red tape is a major victory. A big win like that will make anyone cocky, so they’re less afraid of losing ground by admitting that the real agenda is to attack women’s sexuality. But it’s also because the attacks on abortion rights have been so successful that the only way to build on them is to go after contraception. Unlike with abortion, however, attacks on contraception pretty much have to be framed in terms of restricting women’s sexual choices.

Sure, a lot of anti-choicers are still cautious and are looking for ways to attack contraception without coming right out and saying it’s about sex. “Religious freedom” is one gambit being toss around a lot. But honestly, the sense you get lately is that conservatives generally have decided to stop pretending and just come out with it. Rush Limbaugh’s throwing caution to the wind and using Sandra Fluke’s congressional testimony to characterize women who use contraception as sluts was clearly taken as a battle cry to stop self-censoring by the right. And, frankly, it doesn’t seem to have hurt them very much. The attacks on abortion and contraception seem to be getting more, not less, successful in the wake of conservatives gradually admitting that the anti-choice philosophy was about sex all along.

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  • jruwaldt

    They’re still trying to claim they don’t have a problem with sex, or they were sometime in the last year or two. I remember some Republican women, maybe at the 2012 convention, talking about how they like sex, too, as if that contradicted all the evidence of Republican sexism and misogyny. I suppose they went on to say they only like it within heterosexual marriage for the purpose of making babies. Who knows. Republicans are nuts.

    • L-dan

      Just wait. The results of this piece of ‘analysis’ will find their way into talking points shortly, particularly when challenged on their anti-contraception stance if they want to see fewer abortions.

      From that standpoint, it may actually be a good thing. It looks all sciencey; even if the conclusions they derive from it aren’t. So they’ll happily trot this out as backing up their belief that contraception and sex education lead to ‘more’ abortions (even though there’s nothing there to indicate that), among other things. This just emboldens them to really lay the anti-sex message out there, because now ‘science’ backs them up. Which is not a message that’s going to endear them to anyone but their base.

      The little note that they’re calling morning after pills “contraception” despite believing they’re actually abortion pills is precious.

      • aztectrumpet

        Most republicans aren’t anti-contraceptives, but they do want people to pay for their own contraceptives.

        • colleen2

          Stop. Just stop. Health insurance is sometimes part of a woman’s compensation package. It is something SHE has earned. You didn’t contribute to that and you have no business pretending that you, special, martyred, Republican you, are paying for her contraceptives. You guys are just so disgusting. Not an ounce of integrity

          • L-dan

            Exactly.

            What other components of health care do they feel qualified to decide belong in someone’s insurance package or not?

          • Pammila Allen

            The major problem is lack of education on the right, they think the only use for birth control is solely to prevent pregnancy. But it also medically aids women suffering polycystic ovary syndrome and endometriosis. Which are both very painful conditions that are not treated by any other medication then the birth control pill. With out access to this medication women suffer from cysts forming on ovaries and eventually rupture. The women who suffer these two conditions are usually past the point of being able to get pregnant, their ovaries are damaged. They can’t get a hysterectomy, so they just treat the cysts. Oh and a hysterectomy will also stop a woman from getting pregnant since all the plumbing is removed usually if the woman is in danger of cancer of the uterus., next they will be trying to ban that. Women also use tubal litigation, to prevent pregnancy, but thanks to religious run health clinics they quite often sabotage women’s desire for tubal litigation by refusing referral to see specialists. Thus trapping women often to just using birth control for preventive means.

            I see no business of men to complain about what health care access women have, if that was the case we could point out that men should not have access to erectile dysfunction medication, – we could point out the fact that there might be less rape if men were not given this specific treatment.

          • colleen2

            I believe they’re feigning ignorance. The ‘debate’ as formed allows folks on the right to publicly demean and denigrate women they don’t know in what is a socially acceptable manner within their sad little sub culture. As long as they refuse to acknowledge any response to their whining and lies they can continue to babble their nonsense. The point isn’t to ‘win women over’, these are abusive, nasty men who have always treated women like garbage because they ENJOY treating women like garbage. It’s how the disgusting fuckers bond with each other.

          • Pammila Allen

            I agree – it gets tedious having to try to follow them around to debunk their propoganda. They have us on the defense, and we need to figure out how to go on the attack. This misinformation war is getting overwhelming… it is like a boat with holes in it, just as soon as you fix one hole some bastard comes along and pokes another hole in the boat. It would be so much easier if we just took the oar and knocked them out of the damn boat. lol

          • HeilMary1

            Women need a global birth strike.

          • Pammila Allen

            What is sad is not every man is like this, or pius women. But we do ourselves no favors as long as they get to manipulate learning. No one grows, they just keep getting indoctrinated and following the status quo. How do we fix this educational damage being perpetuated against the weak.

          • HeilMary1

            The internet is waking people up — we survivors are sharing our puzzle pieces and strategies.

        • Ella Warnock

          Oh good grief. Even they aren’t paying for their own contraception.

        • Ramanusia

          So they’re just anti-truth and anti-fact since people do pay for their own contraceptives? Figure out how insurance premiums work, if we applied the same standard you CONS are doing, you wouldn’t be pleased at what you’d have to pay out of pocket for.

        • lady_black

          If a woman is paying for a prescription drug plan, please explain in a cogent fashion why contraceptives ought to be singled out for “pay for it yourself.” This is INFURIATING to me as someone who underwent such a denial years ago for my daughter, then 15. To top it off, she was not sexually active and needed the pills to treat her excessive menstrual bleeding.

          • aztectrumpet

            I think it should be covered for cases like that. But It is cheap enough that if someone wants to use it to prevent getting pregnant than they should be able to buy it themselves.

            But i would n’t happily have birth control covered more if it meant we put an end to abortions except for special cases, like to save the mother’s life.

    • badphairy

      They only like sex, and abortions, when they are doing it.One of my exes worked at a clinic and was amazed at how many of the protesters she later recognized…in the waiting room.

      • colleen2

        I think these ‘men’ are full of rage and bitter resentment at the thought of women enjoying sex. After all, it’s a sure and certain bet that no woman has EVER enjoyed sex with one of them. They lack the basic decency or imagination to carry that off.

      • fiona64

        There is a great site called “the only moral abortion is my abortion.” I’ve posted it a few times now, but it’s easy to find. It’s all about how it’s “different” when the anti-choice choose. With them, it’s always a case of need. Any other woman seeking an abortion is just a s!ut.

  • MissNormaDesmond

    I don’t think you fully understand the mindset of many of these people. What angers them isn’t so much that people, especially women, are having sex outside of marriage — they’ve probably done that themselves. It’s that that they’re not ashamed of it. They’re like members of a fraternity dealing with pledges — “If I had to suffer, you have to suffer. There is no point to my having felt shitty if I never get to make anybody else feel shitty.” They have the biblical tenet exactly backwards — they allow themselves to be judged, so they can have the joy of judging. It’s both hilarious and truly tragic, not to mention borderline insane.

    • HeilMary1

      They are sexual worthies versus us sexual “unworthies”. Like Nazi guards making out in front of “unworthy” imprisoned Jews, gays, feminists, the disabled, etc. My clear-skinned Tanya Harding-like sister loved loudly making out with her fiance in front of loser red-skinned spinster me, and afterwards she’d berate my sinful heavy makeup and plastic surgeon searches.

      • But aren’t you a guy?

        • Defamate

          HM is a pir8.

        • HeilMary1

          Mr. no-name, Mary is usually a FEMALE name.

          • That doesn’t answer the question.

          • expect_resistance

            How about you get a real name.

          • Defamate

            Names are for baybee killers.

            blank is a ninja

          • HeilMary1

            You’re a mother-killing pedophile priest with a prison record.

          • Defamate

            Wrong person.

          • HeilMary1

            Yikes! Sorry! Thought I was responding to the nameless troll!

          • Defamate

            marion vega
            nameless troll

            = sockpuppets from LAN

            Not sure about the rest.
            One of them is PrincessJasmine (PJ4) the other is John Lind

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks! When the nameless troll responds to RH regulars, the RH regulars’ names look like the authors of the troll’s posts.

          • Defamate

            Yeah. They thought they’d pull a fast one on us.

          • fiona64

            PJ4 is a joke. She should be too busy with her fabulous, jet-setting lifestyle and rock star husband and perfect kids to be trolling RHRC.

            Or, she could just admit she made all that crap up (which we know is the case anyway).

          • BJ Survivor

            Right? She is such a caricature. Refuting her idiotic assertions is like shooting fish in a barrel…Or shooting wolves from a helicopter with an assault rifle like Caribou Barbie, the festering asshole…:(

          • expect_resistance

            :) love it. Can’t stop the giggling.

          • CJ99

            Being a dumbass doesn’t make you right. being anonymous doesn’t make you smart, it does however make you a coward.

    • colleen2

      Right and ONLY the women are supposed to be ashamed. What a crappy excuse for a religion.

      • badphairy

        Well, of course, men screwing anything with a hole then running away as soon as consequences develop is MANLY and NATURAL.

    • Amanda Marcotte

      Yeah, I think that’s fair, honestly. To be clear, I don’t think there’s a coherent philosophy going on so much as a boiling mess of resentment, shame, jealousy, and unresolved disgust with the human body, largely projected onto women. That’s why so much anti-choice activism is aimed at making it both harder and more shameful for women to seek reproductive health care. So you get a lot of them saying they don’t want to ban contraception so much as single it out as a medication that doesn’t get covered by insurance. Part of that is just making it harder to get, but another big part of it is making sure that women are reminded, every time they fill their prescription, that contraception is too “shameful” to be included in regular health care.

      • Mary

        Last I checked, most clinics and PP, are already funded by taxpayers and you can get FREE birth control at most locations. So you think it’s about shaming women? So when are you going to hold your partners responsible? You only do so when you decide to have a child and want child support, yet they have no say when you decide to abort? Hmm..do what you want; I’d be happy to stay out of your decisions but don’t ask me to pay for it…again. By the way, a presciption is a prescription, which used to be covered by most insurance plans. Mine did; so did my daughters…even before it was cancelled.

        • HeilMary1

          Liar, you can’t get free BC at PP because I checked. How about YOU holding the RCC responsible for its child-raping priests? BC would be affordable and easily accessible if your holy pedophiles weren’t always criminalizing it.

          • Mary

            What? I am not a liar…typical lefty response..don’t address the conversation; change the subject. Hell yes a child raping priest should be held accountable..by the way, I’m not Catholic. I guarantee you, I could find free birth control for you..but then, that would require doing a simple search which you could do.

          • MissNormaDesmond

            You’re the one who made the claim, you’re the one with the obligation to substantiate it.

          • Mary

            Really? My obligation is to find you free or affordable birth control? Dear Lord..I’ve already done the research for myself, now I have to do it for you as well? Get off your asses and take care of yourselves as you claim you can. Even if I gave you the information, you wouldn’t believe me, so do the dam research for yourselves!

          • Defamate

            yeah. do it for me.

            thx in advance

          • badphairy

            Dam research? These are not the beavers you’re looking for.

          • Defamate
          • HeilMary1

            Well I’ll be damned! And don’t get me started on beaver slang.

          • MissNormaDesmond

            You realize that you’re fooling exactly no one with this, right? You claimed that something was true, and when called on to back up your claim, you pull this pathetic attempt at misdirection out of your hat. I’m 53, I won’t be getting pregnant anytime soon absent a divine intervention, I don’t need you to find anything for me, thanks.

          • AHodges

            Anti-choice folks are making it damn near impossible for low income women to “take care of themselves.” They are against comprehensive sex ed, they want to close/put crazy restrictions on clinics such as Planned Parenthood (the only option in many areas), and of course, they are determined to make it impossible for abortion clinics to stay open.

            A woman who wants to take control of her fertility IS attempting to take care of herself. How many hoops should she have to jump through to get what she needs?

          • Ramanusia

            You’re not so great with comprehension are you? You made a claim, your obligation is to back it up with evidence to prove it, otherwise you are a liar. You’ve done no research, that much is evident in your ignorant remarks, if you wish to claim otherwise them post it.

            Get off your ass and figure out how argument works, since you’re losing badly. You need to cite your information, or didn’t your elementary teachers teach you that?

            Of course we wouldn’t believe you, you don’t cite anything, you just make up nonsense and then get all hysterical and abusive when asked to substantiate it. Get off your own ass an prove your point, or admit you know not of what you speak and that you’ve never done any research at all, “dam”ed or otherwise.

          • fiona64

            No, dumbass. Your obligation is to provide evidence for your assertion.

            As Defamate says, lrn2rd.

          • HeilMary1

            You are ignoring that I already made that search, and most of us lefties aren’t even looking for “free” bc, just AFFORDABLE bc.

          • goatini

            Contraception is NOT “free” at Planned Parenthood. Services and medicines are provided on a sliding scale. But thanks for proving you know nothing about PP.

        • expect_resistance

          Birth control pills are not free. It’s not handed out like PEZ dispenser candy. To get a prescription for birth control pills (and for any medication) you need to see a doctor and pay for visit if you don’t have insurance or pay the co-pay. You “pay” for the prescription as part of your medical/pharmacy coverage. So no, birth control pills are not free.

          And for the rest of your post, yes there’s a lot of women-shaming going on. Sounds like your going of on a “father’s rights MRA tangent.”

          • Mary

            Not true, You can get your Dr. to write a prescription then take it to a clinic or PP and they can fill it. Women shaming because I think women should take control and quit getting themselves into situations that they have to make decisions that they claim, they are the only ones that have to live with it, the rest of their lives? Shaming women because they continue to have unprotected sex with guys who promise them the world until they are pregnant? Shaming women because it’s all about them when it takes two? You all missed the women’s movement when it actually meant something.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU skipped the women’s movement because you couldn’t be bothered.

          • MissNormaDesmond

            You’re a very sad person. Does spewing this stuff on the Internet really make you feel any better? Wouldn’t it make more sense to get some sort of counseling to help you deal with whatever it is that’s caused you to be so bitter?

          • Ella Warnock

            She is dealing with it . . . on the interwebs. Feel free to ignore her if it’s such a hardship for you.

          • goatini

            (MND is talking to sob sock “Mary”… not our dear HM)

          • Ella Warnock

            Ugh, I know, I meant to reply to “Mary.”

          • HeilMary1

            That’s OK! — all these sock puppets have me replying to wrong people to.

          • goatini

            “You all missed the women’s movement when it actually meant something.”

            I’m older than you, Toots. The women’s movement means more now than ever.

          • Kajal Deepak

            You always pay for your birth control if you are using insurance. Because YOU pay for YOUR insurance.
            BTW, I am really tired of paying for wars that take human lives wherein we attack other countries and kill their citizens on their own soil. Can I stop paying for these wars please?
            Also, I would really like to not pay for men’s erections. If you want an erection, pay for it yourself. Talk to me about someone paying for my birth control AFTER Viagra/Cialis are no longer covered by insurance either. And while we are at it, can we get rid of men’s hair treatments under insurance?? Really…a full head of hair for you is my problem? If you are getting old and bald, DEAL WITH IT.
            Thank you so much, Mary for making it all so clear for us!

          • fizzybgood

            Wrong, Mary. In SOME states, you can do that – not all. And guess what? Most of those states are “liberal” states. And even then, they didn’t fill it for free unless you could prove that you had no income.You know nothing, Mary. You still sit in judgement of women who don’t have as good a version of impulse control as you SEEM to have, but I doubt you are as honorable as you claim. I would be more than willing to bet that there are skeletons in your own closet. But no, you want to throw your stones at the adulteress.

          • expect_resistance

            Your post has no basis in reality.

          • lesterthegiantape

            “I think women should take control and quit getting themselves into situations”

            “Shaming women because they continue”

            I suspect you missed the women’s movement entirely. Shame, much?

          • fiona64

            Shaming women because they continue to have unprotected sex with guys who promise them the world until they are pregnant?

            Once again, for the terminally stupid, all forms of contraception, including surgical sterilization, have known failure rates. More than half of women seeking abortions were using contraception during the month in which they conceived. Just so you know. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

            Quote: Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive
            method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became
            pregnant.

          • BJ Survivor

            You do know that men are perfectly capable of NOT having unprotected sex so that their DNA is not cast about willy-nilly, right? Women, contrary to forced-birther and pro-choic-but rhetoric are entirely incapable of self-fertilization.

            Quit with the slut-shaming. That shit gets you banned here. Go back to your forced-birther wankfests if you want to spew that garbage.

        • Ramanusia

          Then you really should check again,since most clinics and PP fall under the Hyde Amendment, which makes their taxpayer funding impossible for abortion services.

          If were to listen to the mob at the doors of these clinics, you would understand the reality that these people only care about shaming women, even if they’re just going into a clinic that doesn’t provide abortion, in order to get a well woman check up or a prescription.

          YOU are not paying for anything, not anything at all. If it is not your body, you will never, ever, ever have a say. Also, while we’re on the topic, your church seems to be getting billions in tax payer money, which means that we’re being asked to pay for your harassment, abuse, propaganda, lies and pedophiles. Hmm, do what you want with your church, but don’t make us pay and keep yourselves out of our business. No one much cares about your opinions, nor do they wish to hear about how insurance premiums that you pay nothing for are somehow coming out of your pocket.

          Also, the reason that prescriptions are not being covered is due to people like you whining and screeching. If you don’t wish to use a prescription then don’t. Most women prior to the ACA did not have insurance, period. Also, even when you take oral contraceptives perfectly, they can still fail, something your doctor should have explained to you and your daughter and clearly did not.

        • HeilMary1

          Keep your pedophile priest-blessed rosaries off our ovaries!

        • fiona64

          Last I checked, most clinics and PP, are already funded by taxpayers and you can get FREE birth control at most locations.

          Couple of things here … those clinics operate on a sliding adjustable fee scale, so contraception is not necessarily “free.” Furthermore, some women cannot take hormonal contraception, and (in the event you’re talking about condoms) many people are allergic to latex.

          What is it with you people and your lack of comprehension of basics like these?

        • colleen2

          Unlike the Catholic hospitals, PP has a sliding fee scale for low income individuals seeking healthcare. The birth control is not free. Will you PLEASE STOP LYING. We are not buying your ‘women are breeding livestock and a good feminist wants a good farmer as a husband’ bullshit.
          That said, you have ABSOLUTELY no idea about our relationships or personal lives. How fucking DARE you, a Republican, lecture us about holding men accountable. Republican women seem content with any amount of abuse and violence and dishonesty. The women who reelected David Vitter and Mark Sandford as just two examples in a very, very long list of what Republicans actually MEAN when they talk about family values.

        • lady_black

          That’s right, “Mary”. A man has exactly as much say in an abortion as I choose to give him. Maybe you didn’t get the memo. Men do not own the bodies of women, therefore he can’t force her to gestate. But rest assured. The same day that a man is capable of gestation, no woman will be able to force him to continue his pregnancy, either. As for child support, let’s clear up what *child support* is. It’s the right of the child to be supported by both parents. It’s paid by the non-custodial parent to the custodial parent (regardless of gender) to help defray the costs of raising the child. It is to provide necessities. It is not some sort of “allowance” for the child to spend, and it isn’t “money paid to see your kid.” Now, if you can find me even ONE case of a man ordered to pay child support for a fetus, I’ll be on your side. That wouldn’t be fair.

      • aztectrumpet

        There is a coherent philosophy. You just don’t like to listen to it. We have no problem with people having sex(or most of us don’t). But if you and your partner do not take the steps to not get pregnant in the first place(through birth control, condoms, ect.), that is no reason to take the life of the child.

        • HeilMary1

          No fetus has the right to maim and / or murder its host, regardless of whether the host used birth control. And besides, most fetal idolaters are now trying to criminalize all contraception.

        • goatini

          No form of contraception is 100% effective, and no citizen can be forced into involuntary servitude against her will.

          • badphairy

            Unless they live in Texas.

            /FYI: there’s a prolific MRA troll at CNN and Atlantic known for using names that start with “az”. This looks like the same ilk.

          • Ramanusia

            or Ireland. Where they’ll let a woman die in severe pain over days for no reason just to “protect the life” of a fetus that has no hope of ever surviving.

          • aztectrumpet

            No i am not that person. That was just my school mascot.

          • badphairy

            Yeah yeah, Arizona has such a good odor, thanks to Sheriff Joe.

          • aztectrumpet

            Never lived or went to school in Arizona. The az in my name is just part of a word.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, I know the one. He’s a more on.

          • aztectrumpet

            Not 100%, but pretty close. Just because it fails isn’t a good reason for abortion. And calling it involuntary servitude is ridiculous.

          • goatini

            Being forced into involuntary servitude with an unwanted pregnancy is gestational slavery.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, failed contraception is a perfectly good reason for an abortion. And forcing someone to donate their organs against their will is a perfect example of involuntary servitude.

            I’m guessing you’re male, since you’re awfully blithe about forced pregnancy … after all, you’ll never have to risk life and limb to gestate, so it’s no big deal.

          • Pammila Allen

            If tubal litigation was made more available that would help prevent more unwanted preganancy caused by failure of other birth control methods. If a woman does not want to have children that is her business – just because you can’t have children is not a legit reason to impose upon others your wishes… if you really want to help children why not contect the department of children and family services and inquire about the children they have up for adoption. Stats show that more then 200,000 children go through the foster care system yearly.

          • lady_black

            I had no problem accessing a tubal ligation when I decided I didn’t want more children (and I was 26 at the time), but I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that sometimes it can be hard to come by. Not because of the law, but because of “funny doctors” who think their role is to dictate to women what they should or shouldn’t do. The AMA needs to intercede on this matter. Having a tubal ligation is a civil right. It’s nobody’s business “why.”

          • Pammila Allen

            I was not so fortunate, 10 years my medical provider withheld access to tubal litigation, and he also interfered with my use of birth control. When he found out I went to the health department for the Norplant he made an excuse to remove it early. I am happy to report he is no longer my doctor after was able to obtain copy of my complete medical record and found out what other “funny” stuff he was doing. Like hiding diagnosis to other health problems, oh and lying out right about medical problems that I didn’t have, my new doctor was able to test and dispel. I should of or still should file a complaint with the medical association to his abuse of power.

          • lady_black

            Yeah, I don’t think it would have taken me ten years, but better late than never. A doctor who tries to interfere in your contraception, or tells you something is “perfectly normal” when you know it isn’t is likely a quack. Move on IMMEDIATELY.

          • Pammila Allen

            He was my physician through my adolescent years when I didn’t have a choice in the matter. I just didn’t realize he had an agenda for a long time. It was not until the later years when I needed my medical records for disability that I learned of the truth.

          • lady_black

            Even as an adolescent you have freedom to privacy in reproductive services. I’m really sorry you had the experience of having a bad doctor. So have I. It’s a good thing I have a big mouth and I’m not in awe of doctors, or I’d be dead. Some clown was going to induce labor when I had a complete placenta previa.

          • Pammila Allen

            I am part of the population that is disenfranchised growing up victim of child abuse (physical, mental, and sexual abuse), and onset of mental illness – people like me don’t get fair treatment. They try to dismiss our rights due to our mental illness. People try to tell me I am a hypochondriac when I am trying to be an empowered patient. It is a common problem. Also deal with a lot of idiots that equate mental illness with ineptitude. As you can see I am an articulate person with high function of intelligence. I am capable of making my own choices. I happen to have a mood disorder and I do get pissed off quite easily when people try to take away my rights.

          • expect_resistance

            I agree, the medical community will dismiss your concerns and attribute it to your mental illness. I hate going to the doctor for this reason. I’ve been dealing with mental illness for most of my life and I’m really sick of doctors blowing off my concerns because of my mental illness or they haven’t got a clue about mental illness and mental health.

          • Pammila Allen

            I hate being treated like a lab rat, I also hate the risks they justify taking on my behalf when I tell them I reject certain medications because of past issues with side effects. There is some serious lack of progress in the mental health field, have serious trust issues of a doctor that has never talked to me longer then 5 minutes any given time. I see their lack of interest and their distraction with just throwing out what medication to try next so they can dismiss me for the next patient. Service keeps getting disrupted every few months because of the high turn over rate of the doctors working at the local health clinic. This is a sad industry.

          • expect_resistance

            You read my mind. Most of them have no idea what the side-effects are like or the worst part, withdrawal symptoms. But they don’t call it “withdrawal” they call it “discontinuation symptoms.” I find the “standardized mental health quiz” administered during the intake process, meaningless and useless. After 15+ years I finally found an awesome therapist. However, I lost access to my awesome RN that wrote the scripts. I’ve been fighting the insurance company about this.

          • Pammila Allen

            For 5 years I was on Geodon and they were not monitoring me until it was too late. Now I have Tardive Dyskinesia – the rare form, grimacing and uncontrollable mouth moments. Can’t stop moving my tongue, also constant biting of my tongue. I am very thankful I got my teeth extracted so I can’t actually bite my tongue off. I use ice to distract and reduce swelling on a regular basis. I have been told that the tongue as a muscle can actually increase in size and cause people problems with eating and breathing.

            Now any time the doctor introduces a new medication – if I see Tardive Dyskinesia as a side effect… he is not getting my cooperation to take the medication. Also dry mouth as a side effect aggravates the Tardive Dyskinesia – that is also unacceptable.

            Guess I am fortunate enough not to have the trembling in the arms and legs like other people get from this condition.

            Watch out for that one.

          • expect_resistance

            I’m sorry this is happening to you. Thanks for the warning about the side effects. What surprises me is how little the doctors know about how the medication works, what it interacts with, and what the side effects are.

          • Pammila Allen

            If you see a medication that causes lactation beware – Rispuderal now has a law suit against them for that. Also if you see a medication that says it can cause somberance, be careful. I had one that caused me to sleep for 2 days straight. I literally felt poisoned.

          • HeilMary1

            I took prescribed Valium for 2 days while working at a factory and nearly lost my hands because every time I blinked, I dreamed! If you read up on the ugly criminal history of these psychotropics being developed and tested on Native American and single mother “orphans” in Canada by our CIA with the help of Operation Paperclip Nazi scientists, you’ll question who really benefits from these poisons.

          • HeilMary1

            Yikes! — that’s exactly what I feared as a disfigured graphic artist reliant on applying painstaking makeup every day to stay employed. My Munchausen by Proxy perp mom hoped I’d get TD so I’d stop hiding her “work of art abstinence-enforcing” abuse scars! The pill manufacturers and their pushers should be sued!

          • Pammila Allen

            They say their is a difference between Tardive Dyskinesia and Parkinsons, I don’t know what it is, but both conditions will cause trembling in the limbs. . Sorry to hear of your situation with the Munchausen by Proxy, I have heard of that. Might be possible if you are on disability, that you can get guardianship revoked and get a new caretaker if you are under that kind of care.

          • HeilMary1

            I’m completely on my own and don’t trust guardians. Since I always knew I was depressed over being disfigured, it was insulting malpractice whenever head shrinks claimed expensive FURTHER DISFIGURING “happy pills” would solve my depression. I’d always snap back: “But I’ll still be disfigured with even less money for plastic surgery!”

          • Pammila Allen

            I can understand, I have been for months resisting medication treatment, I don’t have a social life in real life, but I make up for it with my activity over the internet. I don’t think that is a bad thing, I flourish out here where in real life it just makes me sad. It is totally different worlds.

          • HeilMary1

            The internet has become my social life too — mainly because it is cathartic when you find your niche survivor group.

          • Pammila Allen

            I am primarily on facebook I just wandered in here by accident, and it seems to be more real time speed to my hunger for debate. I go through stages, games, news, kittens, and support groups.

          • expect_resistance

            Pammila I’m glad you wandered here. :)

          • expect_resistance

            I’m really glad I met you here. :)

          • HeilMary1

            Also really glad that I met you and the regulars here!

          • Pammila Allen

            I got to attend a Wellness Recovery Action Plan class provided at my local mental health clinic… I went through it twice, I highly recommend it. It has nothing to do with religions or medical, it is just a self empowering class that teaches you how to identify stress and how to develop an action plan, and it also helps you with identify things which make you happy to bring stress down which you then need to implement on a daily basis. – – These plans can be periodically reviewed and adjusted as you go. I was impressed with it. www mentalhealthrecovery com/wrap/

          • badphairy

            Srsly? The docs I worked for called it withdrawal. Renaming it is fuckery, imo.

          • HeilMary1

            My disfiguring mother bullied me for years to do disfiguring, disabling psychotropics. She deluged me with pill ads and I would mail them back with the horrifying side effects underlined. I managed to mostly avoid head shrinks, but I’ve experienced those short pill-pushing interviews. They could never explain why additional acne, weight gain, diabetes, tardive dyskinesia, violent hallucinations, and suicide would make me “feel better”.

            There is nothing chemically deficient about abuse survivors’ brains that kindness and legal justice can’t fix. A creative life coach might be better for you, or simply sharing your story with other survivors.

          • Pammila Allen

            My adopted mother use to act as a life coach, but she died a few years ago, it was really helpful use to talk off and on all day long, I was able to report my progress and get feedback. She was a cool mother, when she got me – she went back to college to get a degree in Mental Health. I have not been able to replace her, but I try to figure it out on my own as I get hints from medical providers. It is a work in progress. I am on disability, incapable of paying for professional life coach.

          • HeilMary1

            The best coaches are probably free survivors who are a few steps ahead of you in finding answers.

          • BJ Survivor

            Holy shit, Mary. The hell you’ve survived just makes me cry…And so, so angry that religious smegma dogma brought this about. I’m so sorry we live in such a looksist society, because you are such an amazingly strong and beautiful person.

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks! And I’m awed by the courageous women (and supportive men!) who come here!

          • CJ99

            I’m someone with diabetes, if you can avoid it definately do so. Some of those medications I see pushed on tv with their long lists of side effects I wonder how some of them get approved.

          • CJ99

            I too have had experience in that area. being acused of being “mentally retarded” by religious wingnuts around me among other things. Even in college during my psychology course (a requirement) I was thinking a lot of it was more obtuse philosphy than medical science. For reasons like that, like pamela I often avoid people as I just can’t trust most people at all (for various reasons). To often mental illness is tossed out as an accusation instead of whats really going on.

          • expect_resistance

            I hate hearing, “Did you take your meds today.” Or when people joke, “she’s ok as long as she takes her medication.”

          • HeilMary1

            Two of the most offensive sentences in human language! — and usually hurled by sex offenders at their victims!

          • CJ99

            Yes those flippant insults are really revolting. Usually tossed out by those who cause more trouble than those they so casually insult.

          • HeilMary1

            My abusive family labelled me mentally ill because I refused to be their show-and-tell freak.

          • HeilMary1

            Me too. But being a crime survivor doesn’t mean you’re “mentally ill”, just rightfully pissed. And most head shrinks are clueless about what really helps bullied crime victims. Too many make money pushing crippling psychotropics that are simply new-fangled LSD .

          • Pammila Allen

            I had a serious problem with child services… they wanted to force me back into the home. The case was put through court, and I took the advantage to let loose on child services in front of the judge. I alarmed him enough that he berated child services and expedited my emancipation. Every since then I have been able to project distress on others around me, to such a degree that like the judge others will react fast to try to fix whatever the problem is. I have been told that I am borderline personality. I keep away from people, try not to encounter any triggers that would set me off like that whenever possible. There is no medication for this condition.

          • HeilMary1

            “Borderline personality” doesn’t make much sense to me other than as a catch-all category for disobedient patients who spit out their zombie pills.

            “There is no medication for this condition.”

            Because “happy pills” don’t undo child abuse.

            But getting legal justice for yourself and/or others REALLY HELPS! And someday you’re going to see Dr. Micheal Ahearn doing the perp walk into court because he was probably secretly videotaping his female patients, etc. There have been similar cases in the DC-Baltimore area.

          • Pammila Allen

            I tried reading the DBT books for borderline personality and it just totally goes against my grain what the book purports as being the “correct way” to interact with people. I don’t understand why they think we suffer from black and white thinking. I think I am spot on for my arguments. I have an arguing problem though. lol

          • HeilMary1

            I briefly read a wikipedia description of borderline personality and that probably is an unfair description of abuse survivors. While we all can exhibit some of the behaviors, most of us recognize the impulsive destructive behaviors as self-defeating and find alternatives.

          • Pammila Allen

            I was offended when I first found out, if you wander into the wrong groups they are traps, there are people who had such bad relationships that some of these sites have lawyers sitting there spouting their hate for borderline personality and wanting to offer services to spouses. I think there are multiple levels for this illness, some people are at different stages. If you can identify what bothers you and make adjustments you can eventually learn how to reduce stress and avoid confrontations with rude people. I moved 30 times, even had 30 jobs. I have been with my husband now almost 9 years. So it can work. Just a hard learning curve.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re doing better than me!

          • CJ99

            This maybe an aside but there is a problem in health care, that being profit motive. No longer is medicine about the health of the patient but instead the health of big pharma’s bottom line

          • CJ99

            I suspect you’re not taking any shit from others might be a sign of sanity.

          • HeilMary1

            Exactly!

          • BJ Survivor

            I suspect you’re not taking any shit from others might be a sign of sanity.

            QFT. Agreed x 1000. I’d say not having to go back to that home that was abusing you was 1000% sane, however you had to accomplish it!

          • HeilMary1

            Was he a religious freak?

          • Pammila Allen

            Yes he was, when I told him I was sure I wanted a tubal litigation he dismissed my request saying I should come back in 10 years after I had 3 or 4 kids. I ended up having to have unnecessary abortion. Which when he found out – pissed him off big time. That was when I started having the “other” problems.

          • HeilMary1

            Was he Catholic? Did he work in a Catholic clinic? Were there other patient victims? Was your family siding with him? Sounds like he was committing religion-based Munchausen by Proxy abuse against you. I’d love to see such anti-choice doctors prosecuted for Munchausen by Proxy abuse.

          • Pammila Allen

            He was working independent, he was new to our area, didn’t know if he was part of any group, but he was able to speak Spanish, seen his degrees on the wall, he had come up from Mexico so likely old Catholic. I am Hispanic myself but you would never know it, I grew up removed from that culture. Though I know religion is very important to that community. I think he worked around minorities that mostly didn’t know their rights, I had heard often of his treachery with other patients. His name was Dr. Micheal Ahearn from Kewanee, Illinois

          • lady_black

            Probably because they wouldn’t realize he’s a quack.

          • HeilMary1

            If you google him, there are several doctor rating web sites where you can post your complaints. I would do at least that!

          • lady_black

            He was pissed off? Too flipping sad And he wants you to have four kids before a tubal ligation (which he would probably bungle)? I’d tell HIM to go have four kids, or call Federal Express because I’m not making any more deliveries. Boy… what a prince. Please tell me you filed a formal complaint on him.

          • Pammila Allen

            No I didn’t get to, but I did eventually get that tubal litigation happy to report.

          • tomjohnson

            File a complaint, Hell. SUE.

          • Pammila Allen

            I am on permanent disability, I don’t believe any attorney would take my case… besides any income won would endanger my disability. There was likely a statute of limitation on this kind of lawsuit. He actually told me multiple times that I had been diagnosed with Hepatitis C though he never treated me for the condition. I had 3 different doctors retesting me before I was finally convinced I didn’t have that medical diagnosis. I went 10 years thinking I had that problem.

            He also hid my Borderline Personality diagnosis.

          • CJ99

            I’ve said it before but anyone doing stuff like that has no business not being in prison. that “doctor” is a criminal

          • fiona64

            Yep. I had to doctor shop on my insurance for someone who was willing to perform the surgery on an under-30 woman with fewer than four kids. Seriously.

            My husband also had to sign a permission slip — and I’m equally serious about that.

          • lady_black

            I was married but separated at the time. I’m not so sure that it’s a “permission slip” so much as it is an acknowledgement that you’re aware that a tubal ligation or vasectomy will cause sterility. I had to sign something when my ex had a vasectomy too. The doctor doesn’t want anyone suing him. In truth you don’t really need your husband’s permission.

          • HeilMary1

            Briefly worked with a child-free woman in her twenties who sued Pennsylvania for her right to be sterilized.

          • lady_black

            Was it against the law or something? I live in PA. And I’m no spring chicken.

          • HeilMary1

            I think she was required to have so many kids already, but she wanted none forever.

          • lady_black

            LOL. “Required” to have so many kids. My ass. Tell them to call Federal Express, because you aren’t making any deliveries!

          • badphairy

            Yes. They would have done mine if I already had three or more.

          • badphairy

            In many places it is extremely hard to come by. I had to move from MN to CA and in MN they still require either a spouse or parent to sign off, regardless of the age of the patient.

          • lady_black

            Ummm what if they don’t HAVE a spouse or parent? What if she’s 40, never married and doesn’t intend to marry, and her parents are dead. That’s unconstitutional you know…

          • badphairy

            I believe the smug penis-havers response would be something like “Did women write the Constitution? No? Then STFU and make me sammiches until you’re pregnant.”

            The better version is…how much money would an individual need in order to sue BC/BS?

          • lady_black

            Yeah…. I don’t think any judge would buy that.

          • badphairy

            Did you really think the first paragraph of my response was serious? I haz a sad.

            Try the second part.

          • colek3

            @lady_black – I agree with your assessment that it is a civil right, however, my experience was not the same. You say you decided you didn’t want MORE children. I wanted a tubal ligation at 32 because I didn’t want any children and didn’t have any. I saw three OB/GYNs and got the same story from all three; they would not do it until I was at least 40 or had had at least one child. Granted, that was 13 years ago, so maybe things are different now, but still, that was very upsetting to me, especially since I did not want to continue hormone birth control due to health reasons. I was married and both my husband and I didn’t want children, they suggested he get a vasectomy – apparently that isn’t a problem?

          • lady_black

            Well, at the time I was going through a divorce. I got the usual questions, i.e. what if something happened to one of my kids, and didn’t I think I was too young, etc. I said “look, a child can’t be replaced with another child. Even if (god forbid) something happened to all of them I still didn’t want any more. I’ve had three kids in six years and I’m DONE.” Being that your husband was willing to have the vasectomy, that’s great too. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

          • Defamate
          • renfriend

            Years ago (1989) I was denied by three doctors ( I was 22 at the time), I finally gave up and went on the pill. I don’t know if this still happens, I hope not. They all told me I would “change my mind”. I still haven’t changed my mind, but it still makes me angry that three male doctors thought they knew what was best for me.

          • http://paintedcricket.deviantart.com/ FRiv

            Think the keyword here is that you didn’t want “more” children. It is not solely women who are subject to this. Men have encountered problems with doctors who will not perform the surgery unless they have two children first. For people who desire no children, two will already be too late. What do they expect they’ll do with those two unwanted children?

          • lady_black

            It is involuntary servitude in service of a fetus. And worse yet, it’s the taking of unwilling flesh. Just like that poor woman in Texas. She was pressed into service even though she had died. Wrong, wrong WRONG.

        • normajeana

          Some women are extraordinarily fertile. Despite using the pill, having an IUD, pregnancies still occur. If one does take steps to prevent pregnancy, and it still happens, must the woman be penalized for having an extremely fertile uterus? And please do not inject your god into the conversation, as only you, as an individual have a right to believe in whatever invisible friends you want, but you may NOT use your invisible friend to deny a woman the option of terminating a pregnancy she did not want and tried to prevent.

          In other words, saying something asinine like “it must have been god’s will’ that the woman got pregnant despite all precautions- is not an acceptable response. That’s like saying that it’s santa clauss’ will that jewish children don’t get christmas presents. Besides, if you read the old testament, god gave the priests a recipe for an abortifacient… so clearly he didn’t oppose abortion.

          And since the lineage of Jesus came through King David- who was a murderer and an adulterer, it would seem that god didn’t have a problem with those activities either. After all, he also ordered Abraham to KILL his only son, and although it was stopped at the last minute, one would have to think that god liked killing children, from the first born males in Egypt to the killing of his own son. I mean, wasn’t that the reason he sent his son down to DIE? Because daddy wanted a human sacrifice to appease himself so he would stop being mad at humans, which he would be if the humans killed his only son?

          • David Mills

            If you’re going to recount Bible stories, recount them accurately. King David was a murderer and adulterer. What you left out was what happened to him afterwards! It’s not a story of condoning anything. It’s a story about forgiveness. David’s story shows us that no matter how evil we are, we can be forgiven by God. That’s what the entire Bible is about…not judgement, but extreme forgiveness.

          • Defamate

            And genocide.

          • David Mills

            Which is what everyone is advocating on this thread. So you’re against it now?

          • Defamate

            You don’t know what ‘genocide’ is, do you, sweetie?

          • David Mills

            Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group”

            Snark aside, I suppose if everyone aborted their baby, you would succeed in the very definition of genocide.

          • Defamate

            No, because zygotes embryos and fetuses are not an ethnic racial religious or national group, dumbass.

            No one is targeting microscopic zygotes to wipe them out of existence, take their land and stuff, and rape their women. Derp.

            The point of abortion is to END PREGNANCY because women DO NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT

            That too hard for you to understand?

          • David Mills

            Again, if no babies are born and they are all aborted, it is the end of the human race. Whether you want to call it genocide or by some other name, the end is the same.

          • fiona64

            Again, if no babies are born and they are all aborted,

            Please cite evidence that this is an even remotely likely event. I’ll wait.

            (I guess it’s never occurred to you that there are pro-choice people with children, has it? Well, allow me to wave hello to you.)

          • Defamate

            How can people be SO stupid?

            i was checking some more of the histories of the right wingers, and in addition to the guy who said that he wanted to send Obama to the gallows, another idiot said that if the USA ever got socialized healthcare that the country would turn into Stalinized Russia overnight!

            This is precisely why it’s so difficult to tell a poe from a real whackjob.

          • Defamate

            Again, if no babies are born and they are all aborted, it is the end of the human race

            The world currently has 7 billion people. Women still choose to have children. Even pro-choice women.

            So, please explain how half the world’s population is going to wake up one day and decide to ‘genocide’ every embryo in existence.

          • lady_black

            When have there EVER been “no babies born?”

          • HeilMary1

            Dummy, babies are cute enough that most women will risk their health to have at least one.

          • normajeana

            We can only hope that you and your wife don’t bring too many children like yourselves into the world. It certainly would not be fair to them to start off life with such genetic flaws.

          • badphairy

            Intelligence is not actually genetically heritable.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, yes, everyone in the world is going to stop having babies any day now.

            **eye roll**

          • colleen2

            David, women are always going to have children if we can. The human race is not going to die out. I think that the men of the religious right are going to have to change because what we will NOT allow is y’all having any power over us. The religious right is not worthy of a leadership role,

          • CJ99

            Without a doubt you are one huge dumbass. I don’t always say that but for you the shoe fits.

          • http://teethofthebuzzsaw.blogspot.com/ Leo Buzalsky

            Well, as long as we save a few babies (we’ll call one of them Noah *hint hint*), we should be OK, right?

          • fiona64

            And I suppose if every anti-choicer were an idiot …

            Oh, wait. That’s what we’re dealing with!

            A fetus is not an infant/”baby,” and a woman’s medical decisions are none of your business. See how easy that is?

          • lady_black

            Very GOOD, grasshopper. You get a cookie for knowing what genocide means. Now explain to us what that has to do with abortion, i.e. which ethnic, racial, religious or national group(s) are being forced to terminate their pregnancies.

          • David Mills

            [Martin Luther King, Jr.] once said, “The Negro cannot win as long as he
            is willing to sacrifice the lives of his children for comfort and
            safety.” How can the “Dream” survive if we murder the children? Every
            aborted baby is like a slave in the womb of his or her mother. The
            mother decides his or her fate.

          • Defamate

            And MLK considered the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger,to be a hero…

            And where are you pasting this from?

            Did you know that during antebellum slavery, female slaves were forcibly impregnated by their owners and forced to give birth? That they were treated like mere livestock?

            These women often took herbs in order to ‘genocide’ their unborn rape babyeez.

            So tell me, David, black slave women who aborted – were they slave owners too? Or were they *worse* than the slave owners – because they committed an act of ‘genocide’?

            Hopefully this won’t hurt your teeny tiny brain too much.

          • lady_black

            Are we trying to infer that black women are forced into abortions?

          • David Mills

            Did I use the word “forced”?

          • lady_black

            Then it’s none of your business. No matter what skin color she has. She is exercising her rights. One does not volunteer for “genocide.”

          • CJ99

            The real reason you won’t know most of our names is so you can’t show up at our homes with a gun or an axe.

          • goatini

            ^^ THIS ^^

          • fiona64

            Every anti-choicer is like Simon Legree, insisting that a woman should be enslaved to the contents of her uterus. The anti-choicer (almost always male) decides her fate.

          • David Mills

            Well, I can’t do anything about being male, but my wife feels the same way as I do, so to put me down because “I” don’t have a uterus is preposterous. I also know women, who still have their uterus (as far as I know), who run pro-life clinics, love children, and aren’t Simon Legree.

            I’ll go one more with you. We’re consistent about our beliefs. Between me and my wife, we decided in advance, that in the event she is raped, and results in a pregnancy, that we will not abort it. In our younger days we would have raised it. Today, we’d probably adopt it due to our age. But we would not terminate he or she. In my very younger days, I didn’t feel this way, I believed in abortion in rape cases. However, it was my wife who talked me out of it, helping me understand that although a rape is tragic, there is no since taking one tragedy and making it two. Now I don’t push this belief (in the case of rape) on people, but for us, it is what we’d do.

          • Defamate

            You are aware that there are Muslim women who support the Taliban right?

            In other words, just because a woman can be pro-life doesn’t make them any more right than you.

          • David Mills

            At least I have a real name and don’t post my beliefs as an “alias”. The Taliban? You went there?

          • Defamate

            Picking on my ‘nym, that the best you can do? I guess that means that all of the pro-liars who don’t use their real name are also wrong because of that, no?

            Let me try again. Just because a woman can be pro-life, does not mean that she speaks for all woman. Just as a woman can be in support of the Taliban (and those women do exist) does not mean that she speaks for all women.

            Understand now?

          • David Mills

            Yup. And there were women in the stands that cheered when other Christian women were thrown to the lions.

            Do you understand?

          • Defamate

            It’s wrong to oppress people. Glad you agree.

          • HeilMary1

            My sadistic disfiguring anti-abortion family cheered whenever strangers insulted and threatened me for being disfigured by THEIR CRIMES.

          • normajeana

            and there were christian women who cheered when witches were burned at the stake… so, what is your point?

          • goatini

            Yeah, like your wife would cheer the forcible stripping from female citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights.

            We understand perfectly.

          • expect_resistance

            Clearly you don’t.

          • colleen2

            We understand that you believe we should all be Republican women.

          • CJ99

            I value life too much to be repug, besides I’m a guy so that makes it kinda hard to be a repug woman too ;P

          • HeilMary1

            Conceited pedophiles do broadcast their names, pics and address.

          • normajeana

            And I have a real name too- but my last name is too long and it wouldn’t take it when I set up my account. However, you can google my name and the entire name will come up. So does it prove? That you have a real name? Whoopie doo haa! You still have NO right to tell someone else what they can do with their own body. If you don’t like the killing of children, take it up with your god. He seems to think it is just fine, whether or not the young ‘un is a fetus or a born baby… or an unruly child or even a grown man who curses his father:
            Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to
            death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
            All who curse their father or mother must be put
            to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

            If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife,
            both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

            But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) (oohh.. this means there is gonna be a lot of girls killed because there are very few of them who are virgins when they marry…)

            If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.
            (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

          • goatini

            You belong there, stop acting like you don’t know it.

          • expect_resistance

            :)

          • expect_resistance

            I didn’t have the chance to ask you before and I lost the thread. Did you say something about Abbie Hoffman. Did you meet him? Sorry, totally off topic.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s because we’ve been harassed and stalked by psycho anti-choice/forced-birther MRA thugs. Is that your real name, Dave?

          • fiona64

            Well, bully for you. You made a decision about how you would handle a given situation, and are gracious enough to “allow” other people to make a different call in the exact same circumstance.

            Here’s a clue-by-four for both you and the missus: if it’s not your pregnancy, it is 100 percent none of your goddamned business.

            No love, a woman whose pregnancy almost killed her … who happens to also be a rape survivor.

            PS: No one said anything about your lack of a uterus, David (although it is very, very easy to be an anti-choice male). As Defamate says, Lrn2rd. Not everything is about you. Shocking, I know … but true.

          • David Mills

            I see, I try to show you how I think and it’s “about me”? No dear, it’s about killing the kids.

            It’s not pretty. All the window dressing you put on it, it’s still murder.
            Sweet dreams.

          • Defamate

            It’s not pretty. All the window dressing you put on it, it’s still murder. Sweet dreams.

            so what should the penalty be for women who abort?

            life in prison?

            hanging by the neck until dead?

            30 years?

          • lady_black

            As I explained to you in another comment, “murder” is a legal construct. It doesn’t mean whatever you want it to.

          • fiona64

            If you know anyone who is killing kids, contact your local law enforcement agency.

            In the meanwhile, I will rectify what is doubtless but one gap in your education.

            Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought. Abortion is a legal medical procedure. That which is legal cannot simultaneously be unlawful, so your canard fails on that aspect alone. However, there’s a second failing point: personhood is a legal status that confers with birth (see 14th Amendment to US Constitution). A fetus is not a person, so you’ve missed the mark again (not that I’m surprised at this point).

            However, let’s play your game. If abortion is murder, what punishment should women receive for ending unwanted pregnancies? I’m keen to know. After all, since you’re accusing women of committing felonies, you must have some sort of punishment in mind …

          • HeilMary1

            What female fetuses did to my best friend’s face you won’t see in the worst horror movies. Your brood mare would get an abortion over the first bladder accident.

          • normajeana

            But god loves to murder children- the bible is full of all his killings… mass killings, executions, abortions, so if god is for it, why are you aggin’ it? All the religion you put on it- it is still NOT YOUR WOMB and NOT YOUR CHOICE! Get over yourself and read the old testament. See all the killing of all the kids and women and everyone else that god wanted killed.

          • goatini

            No children are ever harmed in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. All children, ever, have already been born.

          • Ella Warnock

            I always sleep well.

          • lady_black

            Of course, in the event your wife is raped she can do anything she wants to. It’s easy to say what you would do when you were never faced with the actual situation. In the face of reality, minds often change. I wonder if it would change your mind to know that in 33 states, a rapist has paternity rights? How would that sit with you?

          • HeilMary1

            And if that rape pregnancy triggered breast and face-rotting cancers, stinky bladder and bowel incontinence, multiple organ failures, sepsis limb amputations, etc., your wife would let her nose, breast and limbs rot off for a rapist’s spawn? I don’t think so!

          • normajeana

            Well isn’t that special! Good on ya, mate- but what you and your little lady do with the fetus of a rapist is what YOU and she would do. In NO universe do you OR she or any of your christian cronies have a right to dictate what OTHER women will do if a violent rape or sexual assault results in a fetus in the womb of the victim of rape. That’s the whole point of being pro-choice. You and your wife make choices for YOUR lives, and other people get to make choices for their lives.

          • Defamate

            Did you *see* how Norm Donnan was talking down to Kodie on CE today?

            She made a bunch of fantastic points, and instead of answering her, he treated her as if she was nothing more than a stupid little lady with a pink fuzzy brain. The irony? The guy can’t even form a coherent thought.

            Anyways, his misogyny proves what bob was saying.

          • HeilMary1

            Since fetuses grossly maim and murder their hosts, ALL abortions are justified self-defense, just like your passion for gun-owning. You can’t be pro-gun and anti-abortion at the same time because BOTH ARE FOR SELF-DEFENSE.

          • Dan

            Hey if that’s the way you need to justify ripping a baby apart limb for limb and reassembling it likea jig saw puzzle later, more power to ya.

          • HeilMary1

            Better that than suffer obstetric incontinence or worse.

          • normajeana

            Every unwanted fetus in the body of a woman who did not wish to provide her uterus to the unwanted sperm/egg combo is a trespasser on her property and she has a right to terminate the trespasser.

          • HeilMary1

            Exactly! Funny how the gun-loving, property-rights fanatics oppose the same rights for pregnant women.

          • colleen2

            They also believe they own the bodies of women. They are following a religion in which God created women to be chattel. That is what they mean by Traditional Family Values.

          • goatini

            Actually, the TRUTH is that every female US citizen whose civil, human and Constitutional rights have been abrogated, and who is forced to suffer through an unwanted pregnancy against her will, is sentenced to involuntary servitude and gestational slavery.

          • colleen2

            David, take your Republican talking points elsewhere.

          • CJ99

            MLK was not a lying asshole, you are, there in lies the difference. If he were alive today he’d tell you that himself. In reality you are in the camp that assassinated him.

          • expect_resistance

            Abortion IS NOT genocide. “Why not?” you ask. Well, the medical procedure of abortion is not a “deliberate and systematic destruction” of fetuses. Your arguments are absurd.

          • HeilMary1

            Cardinal Montini aka Paul VI deliberately funded Nazi Croatian Ustasha death camps that butchered 1 million Serb Christian non-Catholics, including pregnant women and their “heretic ” fetuses.

          • normajeana

            “Everyone” (female who is pregnant) can only abort the fetus in her own body. She cannot abort the fetuses in other bodies. Since aborting an unwanted fetus is the action of the single female individual whose body became an incubator for a fetus, she is not doing it out of any ethnic, racial, religious or national prejudice against the fetus- just a desire not to continue to provide sustenance to the trespasser in her womb.

            And obviously, not everyone wants to abort their fetus… many women feel an obligation to bring yet another life into the world whom they cannot feed or clothe or give any sort of meaningful life to, merely because they believe they ought to be breeders. Other women are thrilled to have a child, and have the means to care for it, regardless of whether nor not they have a male to help them raise it.

            So, just because not every female feels a need to breed, mankind is not about to go extinct.

          • CJ99

            You’ve just proven with your own words no less that your whole argument is pretentios bullshit. 1 woman having an abortion is not genocide & you’ve already admitted it. Ergo your lying your lazy ass off.

          • fiona64

            You clearly have no idea what genocide is.

          • HeilMary1

            Your pro-liar RCC has genocided a billion people over the past 2,000 years.

          • Pammila Allen

            Problem with your religion is no matter what you say about god’s will, we are not a Ecclesiastical – a government administrated by a church. – your religious doctrine does not apply to the laws governing this country. Get over it!

          • David Mills

            Oh but they DO! Otherwise, can you tell me what your basis is for determining right and wrong?

          • lady_black

            Individual rights. Civil rights, not moral rights. Your religious beliefs are relevant ONLY to yourself. I couldn’t care less about your religious beliefs. They don’t apply to me.

          • David Mills

            No, you dodged the question. Where does one get individual rights? Where does one get civil rights? Who says murder is wrong? A piece of paper? Or is it self-evident? And if it is self evident, where did that come from? Your conscience? And what is telling your conscience that murder is wrong? Your goodness?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            “Human rights” is a philosophical construct. So is right/wrong. As such they both have no fixed value or actual existence.

          • Defamate

            There is NO such thing as natural rights. A tiger doesn’t care about your right to ‘life’. It just sees you as food. A tornado doesn’t care about your right to your property – it just does what tornadoes do.

            “Rights” were given to humans by humans so that we could co-operate in a social setting.

          • lady_black

            One gets individual rights by first being born. Then from the constitutions and statutes of states and the federal government, i.e. the law. The most supreme law of the US is the US Constitution. The law does not deal in “goodness and badness.” The law deals in “legal and illegal.” Those are not the same concepts. Murder is wrong, NOT because your “holy book” says it is. But because you have extra-judicially violated the right of your fellow citizen to his life. And please notice that “killing” isn’t necessarily illegal, but “murder” is illegal, and that term is defined by the law.

          • HeilMary1

            Near Death Experiences with Buddha and Zeus!

          • lady_black

            Great answer.

          • colleen2

            Where does one get individual rights?

            We win them and we won them from people like you. We decided that we weren’t going to have alien religions imposed on us, particularly when those religions are formed specifically to demean and devalue women.
            It’s unfortunate that conservative Catholics are so bloodthirsty and long to be able to charge us with heresy.

          • David Mills

            *sigh* I’m not even Catholic

          • colleen2

            Then you are a member of another religious right denomination, a coalition of extreme conservatives who wish to impose their MINORITY religious beliefs on all women. Please stop wasting my time.

          • David Mills

            I’m a follower of Jesus. If He’s extreme, then guilty as charged. But I don’t know how I ever wasted your time since you have free will not to bother.

          • HeilMary1

            Jesus committed chemical abortions and hung out with midwife-abortionists.

          • David Mills

            Well if you really think that I’m sure you will get your chance to accuse him of that to his face one day.

          • David Mills

            OK, if you really feel that’s true, I’m sure you will get your chance to accuse him directly to his face some day.

          • colleen2

            Republican Jesus is an abusive asshole, just like his ‘followers’. Please leave us alone.

          • David Mills

            As you wish.
            I’m out

          • Timothy Griffy

            So where did Jesus prohibit abortion. Book, chapter, and verse please.

          • David Mills

            The consensus of Scripture is that a baby
            in the womb is a unique human life. Children in the womb
            should be respected and protected. I see animal shelters that provide more respect for cats and dogs than we give for a pregnancy. Some truths are self evident. I’m not talking about life of the mother or rape. I’m talking about an “Inconvenient pregnancy”.

            I find it interesting how Jesus is hated and reviled on this site. Calling him “Republican Jesus” and stuff I can’t repost. It’s disgusting and wrong.

          • Defamate

            Yeah?

            See Numbers 5.

            An abortifacient for a woman suspected of adultery. If she was sleeping around, the fetus would miscarry, and fall upon her thigh!

          • David Mills

            Well, the OT is a lot of reading, and I didn’t know that was in there. First, it says it will make your thigh rot and your abdomen swell. It says nothing about abortion or being pregnant. So you misquoted it.

            OT law was a LOT stricter than the
            kind of laws we have today, and many people today like to use them to
            make fun of or belittle Christians because for one thing, they don’t
            understand those laws and what the spirit of intent was in having them
            at that time in those days.

            This thread will not let me post a link to the answer.

            I really hate long answers and I bet you do too, but here’s the Christian view of that from “gotquestions” dot org:

            Answer:
            Numbers 5:11-31

            describes an unusual procedure a husband could use to determine if his
            wife had been unfaithful to him. Essentially, the husband and wife would
            come to the priest, the priest would then create a concoction of
            unpleasant ingredients, and then the wife would have to drink the
            concoction. If the wife was guilty of adultery, she would get sick and
            her belly would swell. If the wife was innocent, God would protect her
            from the effects of the concoction. There was nothing magical about the
            concoction. It was entirely a matter of God using the result to
            demonstrate whether a woman was innocent or guilty. So, in summary,
            Numbers 5:11-31 affirms the truth of Numbers 32:23, “be sure your sin
            will find you out.”

            Some propose that Numbers 5:11-31refers to
            God causing an abortion. This is clearly not what the passageis talking
            about. Pregnancy is nowhere mentioned, or even hinted at, in
            the
            text. The only thing that even sounds like pregnancy is the guilty
            wife’s stomach becoming bloated, but even in that instance, it has
            nothing to do with pregnancy. Further, the passage does not say that
            drinking the concoction would cause an abortion/miscarriage. While
            drinking a poisonous mixture of ingredients could very well cause a
            miscarriage, that is not what this text is speaking of.

            If a wife
            was found guilty, the punishment was death (Leviticus 20:10). If the
            wife was found innocent, she would be “cleared of guilt” and “able to
            have children” (Numbers 11:28). So, again, Numbers 5:11-31does not refer
            to abortion in any sense. Rather, it is describing a method that God
            allowed to be used to determine if a wife had committed adultery against
            her husband.

          • Defamate

            1) the only way to tell the woman was cheating, other than seeing her do it, is by pregnancy. In fact, the big reason that adultery was punished is BECAUSE of pregnancy – forcing a man to raise another man’s children

            2) the ingredients in the bitter water came from the temple floor – rotting grain in fact. And rotting grain contains ergot – which is an abortifacient. The purpose was to induce a miscarriage as *proof* of adultery.

          • David Mills

            I see you’re a student of the Bible. What does this mean:

            John
            8:7 …“Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her. (referring to a prostitute)” 8:8 Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground.
            8:9 Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”

            I am not hating on anyone here. I have done bad things, and am in no position to judge, but if you put down your rocks and broken bottles and look at what the Christian message truly is, it is not hate, but forgiveness.

          • fiona64

            Should have scrolled down, LOL.

          • Mirable

            I learned it from you:p

            I find it amusing though, how pro lifers try to brush the entire story off as a poisoning, and not an induced miscarriage if guilty. I mean duh, proof of cheating = fetus.

          • Timothy Griffy

            You’re overlooking the key verse, Num. 5:27: “When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, *and her womb shall discharge*, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people” (NRSV). Needless to say, if she is pregnant and her womb discharges, a miscarriage will occur. That is exactly what an abortifacient does.

            Now let’s look at why the woman is made to go through this ideal in the first place. The man is suspicious, but he has no proof and no witnesses to adultery (she would be tried and executed otherwise). True, some men get jealous for no reason or for irrational reasons, but you can sure bet that at least half the time this ordeal was used, it was because the woman was pregnant and the man doubted paternity.

            Still waiting for that book, chapter, and verse prohibiting abortion.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, actually, it very specifically refers to abortion. The “potion” was to contain dust from the temple floor. That dust would have contained rotting grain from sacrifices, and rotting grain contains ergotamine — which is an abortifacient.

            The only way there would have been evidence of adultry was pregnancy.

            Thanks for playing today’s episode of “Too Many Christians Don’t Know Their Bibles.” We have some loving parting gifts for you.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Sorry, but there is no book, chapter, and verse prohibiting abortion in this reply. And whatever you may think about others “hating and reviling” Jesus on this site, it doesn’t apply to me. So, where did Jesus prohibit abortion?

          • David Mills

            You well know there is no book, chapter and verse.

            Show me book chapter and verse where a website dedicated to the practice of having sex with a brain-dead body on life-support and then pulling the plug when you’re finished…is wrong. I bet you could find someone depraved enough to want to do that. Some things clearly don’t need to be told us it’s wrong.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Please. The law codes of the surrounding cultures and of the time frame of the Bible had laws dealing with abortion, either for or against. If the Bible wanted to prohibit abortion, it wasn’t because it wasn’t practiced, and it wasn’t because the language didn’t exist. Yet for all that, the Bible is completely silent on the subject.

            Now, you want to claim that you’re just a follower of Jesus, so if you are anti-abortion, then blame him. Well, if you want to insist we blame, then you ought to be able to show that he prohibited it. If you can’t do that, then we can start talking about how extreme you are and leave Jesus out of it.

            So–book, chapter, and verse please.

          • fiona64

            He’ll be in real trouble when he gets to Numbers, where a woman is forced to consume an abortifacient as a test of marital fidelity.

          • Timothy Griffy

            As I’m sure you already know by now, he tried weaseling his way out of that one. We didn’t let him.

          • HeilMary1

            Jesus served ABORTIFACIENT miracle wine to the Cana bride and whipped money changers instead of midwife-ABORTIONISTS. That tells me what we need to know.

          • CJ99

            With that you’ve proven your flat out lying. again.

          • CJ99

            By using him as your big stick to beat people into submission it is you who take his name in vain (to uses your own lingo)

          • CJ99

            Where you’re going is not where Jesus went. If you understood who he is you’d know you’re among the pharisees who so despised him.

          • CJ99

            What’s clear is who cant tell right from wrong is you. Such is the hallmark of a psychopath. The rest of us are not violent lunatics which is why we protect ourselves from you.

          • David Mills

            If you’re trying to convince me you’re a good person, you’re failing

          • CJ99

            I’m a regular human who doesn’t need to himself to scum like you who throws out slimey accusations at anyone calling them aborted. If you were not such a vindictive coward I’d challenge you to say it to my face in front of a police station and you’d soon find out you wouldn’t get far with that.

          • David Mills

            You avoided the question and you’re very defensive. Are you post abortive?

          • HeilMary1

            Are you post pedophilia?

          • David Mills

            No, not anything of the sort.

          • CJ99

            Nope but your an virulent asshole for even assuming I was aborted. I don’t say it a lot but you are truly a piece of human trash “David”. The day you meet your maker I have no doubt you’ll be in for a huge shock. Yeah you’re absolutely vile and an embarrasment to all of humanity so do the world a favor and fuck off.

          • fiona64

            What business of yours is that? What a prurient little snoop.

          • fiona64

            I somehow missed this part of the discussion. Laws in this country (US) are absolutely, 100 percent NOT based in any religion … let alone Christianity in particular. They are based on English common law, and the second of Locke’s “Two Treatises on Government.” Laws are based on the rights of the victim to be safe and secure in his or her person, not on what some religious body dictates to be “right” or “wrong.”

            I’m sorry you missed so much of civics class, David. I really, really am.

          • Pammila Allen

            This is not an Ecclesiastical government, this is a Democratic Government. Separation of Church and State. Read the Constitution if you don’t believe me.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Law governs contracts, property and progeny. Law has nothing to do with right/wrong of morality. When “moral” laws are made, hell breaks loose.

          • HeilMary1

            You fascist “Christians” are the biggest genociders around.

          • normajeana

            David, I suppose you are not aware that prior to the Abrahamic religions, there were already laws prohibiting many things (using force, fraud, etc.)- and that the basis for OUR government was NOT the bible. If the only reason you don’t rape and kill or steal or lie is because of the bible, then that speaks volumes about your morality. I don’t need a bible to know that one doesn’t harm another (already) living being, you don’t take what isn’t yours, you don’t lie to or about people, and unless you are protecting your own life, that of the people you love, or your property, you MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

          • colleen2

            When it comes to healthy human relationships, healthy sexuality and decent treatment of women and the poor ya’ll (the religious right and the Republican party) are complete failures, No religion or political party that threats half the human race like garbage has it right and the religious right and the GOP treat women like garbage.
            So, no, the idea of someone like you being the sole arbiter of ‘what is right’ for all women is absurd. Particularly considering the inability of conservative men to exercise self control,
            Or, to put it another way: It’s a mistake to take religious instruction from abusive men and women and y’all are highly abusive. I wouldn’t have you in my house, much less my heart.

          • CJ99

            Our basis for knowing right & wrong is based on reality. As in not treating others like slaves or worse. Nor do we dictate what others can or cannot do, think, say or feel. This is what separates us humans from violent psycopaths such as you.

          • David Mills

            Ur funny

          • CJ99

            Your still a petty hate filled tyrant. And as others have also said what you espouse is bullshit. So instead of running your mouth yet again look around and see how much support you have. What you’ll instead see is the shit you so happily fling is tossed back at you quite unceremoniously.

          • CJ99

            You do NOT determine right or wrong, you clearly don’t understand what either of those things are.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nonsense. Biblical morality practiced will get you arrested. Jehovah is into abortion as a tool of genocidal war. The God of the OT is a demon. Jesus’ God is different, it is true. But modern religionists do not follow Jesus, they follow Jehovah and Paul.

          • HeilMary1

            But what about the miracle wine abortions Jesus induced at the Cana wedding?

          • normajeana

            Actually, David Mills, I did recount it accurately. It shows that you religious folks are full of bovine excrement and will justify any amount of hypocrisy as long as the perpetrator of the murder and adultery “repented.” So, what about the killing of the first born male children of the Egyptians? Apparently god ordered them to be murdered- whatever the justification. So clearly god doesn’t mind the killing, he just wants to know that his subjects are ‘sorry’ and then whatever they did is okey-dokey with him.

            And god gave the priests that abortifacient recipe so that women could have miscarriages… and what of all those biblical commandments to kill your children if they aren’t respectful- or if they disobey you…. hmmm…. and all the murders of the non Israelites whenever those guys went after some piece of land or a city that they believed should be theirs… god ordered them to kill even the women who had babies in their bellies… and only save the young virgins who had never been touched by a man, so those girls could become the sex slaves of the conquering Israelites… I suppose that was justified too?

            And finally, what about the arranged killing of his own son just so your god would stop being mad at the humans who actually dared to exercise that ‘free will’ that your god gave them, but when they DID exercise it, your narcissistic bully of a god had a temper tantrum and decided that his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON had to DIE in order for daddy to forgive those evil humans… Your god ordered an awful lot of killing for someone who supposedly said “thou shalt not kill…” (except for all those I tell you to kill, or when I send in one of my other creatures to kill those naughty children who made fun of the bald priest -or whatever his job title was… or all the other times when god commanded the slaughter of people other than his ‘chosen’ ones…)

            Funny how christians can interpret their bible to mean whatever they want it to mean, glossing over and outright ignoring the parts they don’t like or don’t want to ‘obey’ but demanding that the rest of us live by the parts of YOUR bible YOU think ought to be made into the law of a secular government. I was born and raised in a fundamentalist christian family and I saw up close and personal what a bunch of hooey it was and its practitioners were the most hypocritical, lying, untrustworthy folks I could have ever imagined, and all they had to do to ‘get right with god’ was to say “i repent’ and voila- just like magic, all those evil deed they did were forgiven.

          • CJ99

            What your claiming is that you can commit the most horrific acts like your bible “hero” did and be forgiven & still come out as a “hero” again. However in the real world such is not the case. Btw, your act is transparant what you are about is nothing but judgement. You & your actions are not of god cause you don’t know god.

          • David Mills

            “What your claiming is that you can commit the most horrific acts like your bible “hero” did and be forgiven”
            Yes, that’s correct. And it better be that way or none of us will have any hope.

          • http://teethofthebuzzsaw.blogspot.com/ Leo Buzalsky

            Oh, I really hope you don’t also go around claiming you need to be Christian to be moral.

          • David Mills

            No, that’s not the message. As an Atheist I thought you’d be more educated in what a Christian believes.

          • CJ99

            If “david mills” proves anything is that its far more common for those who are not religious to be moral

          • CJ99

            Dear Bible thumping buffoon,
            You now pefectly well that your lying. Your own insistance in a previous comment above insinuating that I am an aborted foetus is vile and just 1 of your not just vile but psychopathic delusions you derived from the bible. Yet you wonder why I tell you to piss off. You are a liar hiding behind god whilst you promote bigotry. Ergo you have no excuse or recourse.

            I have friends, a life, and sleep well at night, and I could look the creator in the face in spite of all I’ve been through in life, I certainly hope to do so. You cannot say the same. If you don’t like it then boo freakin hoo.

          • BJ Survivor

            If you’re going to recount Bible stories, recount them accurately. King
            David was a murderer and adulterer. What you left out was what
            happened to him afterwards! It’s not a story of condoning anything.
            It’s a story about forgiveness. David’s story shows us that no matter
            how evil we are, we can be forgiven by God. That’s what the entire
            Bible is about…not judgement, but extreme forgiveness.

            And you also need to be accurate. Remember, the punishment for King David’s crimes and sins was to kill the innocent baby that was the result of his tryst with Bathsheba. What this story illustrates is that Yahweh has zero regard for innocent life and gives his favored psychopaths prophets leeway and exceptions to his draconian rules that no one else gets, least of all women and children.

          • David Mills

            Your logic is faulty. Are you saying that you deciding to take a life is equal to and on par with whether or no God decides to? That makes you equal to God. God has zero regard for innocent life?

            God is sovereign. It’s not up to you to tell God what is right and wrong.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Sure it is. If something is wrong, it is wrong no matter who does it. That includes God. And as it is told in the Bible, God had no regard for the life of David and Bathsheba’s baby.

          • David Mills

            Well, ok if you want to put yourself in the position to tell the creator of the universe that he did something “wrong”, you go ahead and do that.
            I think this conversation has run it’s full course.

          • Timothy Griffy

            God didn’t create the universe; he built it using pre-existing material. God is as much subject to the rules as we are. What I’m actually doing is answering Abraham’s question, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?” The answer is no. But you go ahead and keep believing God is a monster.

            The conversation hasn’t really started, since you still haven’t provided the book, chapter, and verse prohibiting abortion.

          • BJ Survivor

            Yahwe took the life of an innocent baby to punish David for his crimes and sins, even though, according to Yahweh’s own draconian rules, it is the rule-breaker who must pay the price with his or her life, not an innocent person. But those brutal, but at least just, rules are casually thrown aside when one of his favorites commits the most heinous of crimes….Just, no. Yahweh is not fit for worship, at least not to people of conscience and compassion, which, sadly, cannot be said to describe you and your ilk.

          • BJ Survivor

            Furthermore, your “God” is all in your head. I know of him, far more than you do, apparently, and have found him/it lacking. He is not anyone I’d want to have anywhere near anyone I love or even near anyone I despise. He is a rotten, psychopathic, genocidal piece of shit that deserves nothing but contempt if he were even real.

          • CJ99

            Indeed what the poser thinks of as god isn’t the creator at all. The bible he so blindly clings to has very of value left among its pages.

        • Kajal Deepak

          1. It is not a child. If this was a child, abortion would merely be early birth, nothing more.
          2. No person, born or “unborn”, has any right to use another person’s body without their continued consent. No matter who lives or dies. This is why donation of blood, bone marrow and organs (even after death) is entirely voluntary. You can’t even use your parent’s bodies without their consent. Not after birth, and therefore, not before birth.

          In fact, a homeless man can’t even violate a rich man’s property rights to save his life from hypothermia in a blizzard. The interesting question is how do you even dream that it is OK to single out just ONE gender in just ONE situation to violate personal rights of?
          This is USA. Here women own their bodies. The State doesn’t, as in China. The Church doesn’t, as in Iran. This is the land of the free. And that includes the women of this land.

        • Ramanusia

          So you’re okay if a couple whose contraception failed after having decided to not get pregnant decide to terminate a pregnancy long before there is a child right? Childhood, by definition begins at birth, much like personhood, it’s why the day and time of birth is so important to us as humans across lines of culture, time and language.

          There is no “life of a child” when one is terminating an unwanted pregnancy. The reason your philosophy is not coherent is that you don’t seem to have bothered with learning what the words you use actually mean, much less the biology or logic involved in the ‘arguments’ you make, which are quite nonsensical.

        • fiona64

          Given that every form of contraception, including surgical sterilization, can and does fail, you’ve betrayed an enormous level of naivete here.

        • lady_black

          I actually agree with you. There’s absolutely no reason to take the life of a child. That includes by capital punishment, war, or benign neglect. Abortion, however, is a different matter. No children are ever harmed in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. Every child, ever, has already been born.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          What child? There is no child until I make it out of my blood, flesh and pain.
          You come anywhere near my children in real life, Zealot, and I will hurt you.

          • lady_black

            I second that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The nerve of these whackjobs. They would be peeking in my window if they could get away with it.

          • lady_black

            As you said, none of them are sane. Not one.

        • redlemon

          So if someone does take steps to prevent pregnancy, that’s a perfectly legit reason to get an abortion?

          • BJ Survivor

            So if someone does take steps to prevent pregnancy, but it fails, that’s a perfectly legit reason to get an abortion?

            Yep. Furthermore, any reason whatsoever that a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy is perfectly legitimate. No one is obligated to act as life support to the detriment of their well-being, health, or life as forced-birthers demand of women. We aren’t even allowed to use tissues and body parts of corpses (except in Texas now, but only if if you are a pregnant female, apparently) without the prior consent of the deceased and/or zir next of kin.

          • redlemon

            Of course. I agree with absolutely everything you said. I was trying to point out the inconsistency of a “valid” abortion vs an “invalid” abortion. I find that asking questions about what someone says (or writes) often shows holes in the argument that they didn’t intend to be there.

        • tomjohnson

          How about it’s none of your GOD DAMNED BUSINESS??

        • KendallMcK

          You are so totally and completely full of sh*t. If “pro-lifers'” real problem is with irresponsible sluts not using birth control and condoms, WHY DO YOU VOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO ENACT LEGISLATION WHICH INTENTIONALLY MAKES IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO GET BIRTH CONTROL AND CONDOMS? Because you do. Pro-life politicians do everything they can to restrict access to affordable birth control, comprehensive, medically-accurate sex ed, health care for marginalized communities, Planned Parenthood, etc. — you know, all the things that study after study after study has shown to actually reduce the abortion rate. Instead, pro-lifers allow real people’s lives to be ruined (including aborted fetuses, if you consider them people, which I’m betting you do) just so they can pitch anti-sex hissy fits that ultimately accomplish nothing more than increasing the rate of unplanned pregnancies and therefore, abortions. (But who cares, cuz those whores deserved it, amirite?!)

          So, sorry. Nobody believes you. The jig is up. Actions speak louder than words. And pro-lifers’ actions on a whole have consistently shown that they’re more interested as punishing people (mostly women) for having sex than saving the poor widdle babies.

    • David Mills

      Wrong on so many levels, but how about we agree on one point and start here—> Stabbing babies in the brain isn’t a good idea.

      • HeilMary1

        Fetuses causing cancer and shredding their hosts’ lady parts and vital organs is why you monsters all cheat on and trade in your has-been brood mares.

        • David Mills

          You’re very bitter about something. Some of us are happily married, have unbridled sex for fun, and even managed to have kids, loved them, raised them, still love them, and now I buy dresses for my granddaughter. Sorry you missed out on that.

          • colleen2

            David…while I do find it credible that you have sex “for fun” it really is impossible to believe that your partners do.

          • David Mills

            Oh man…

          • Sylvia Weddle Mills

            um…colleen2….you would be couldnt be more wrong. Pretty sure I’m having at least as much, (if not more!) fun than he is. :)

          • colleen2

            I don’t believe you, ‘Sylvia’. This is a guy whose hobby it is to berate, denigrate and lie to women he does not know and who do not want to know him. Now he is pathetic enough to produce a sock puppet attesting to his sexual prowess. What sad little men Republicans are.

          • HeilMary1

            Go change your Depends. Your hubby needs to call his mistresses.

          • CJ99

            Reported for Sockpuppetry.

          • Sylvia Weddle Mills

            What is ‘sockpuppetry’?

          • Sylvia Weddle Mills

            Nevermind. I looked it up. Convenient for you isnt it, that you can falsly report me and have comments removed that you have no argument for? Both my husband and I were signed on through FB and neither one of us has tight restrictions on what you can view on our accounts so it’s easy to see who we are and that we are individual people. Not just some guy with multiple accounts. But, if that’s what you have to stoop to, to validate yourself…well, that pretty much tells me you dont really have a substantive argument. Thoughtful, intellectual debate is good for us as a society but when you silence dissent, you’re not really interested in debate of ideas. You really only want to hear yourself speak.

          • CJ99

            Nope your comments keep getting deleted cause you keep posting vile bullshit and using “religious liberty” as your dodge. Now you’re hiding under another name. No surprise since you’re already known as a lying asshole.

            You are a vile mysogonistic tool, nothing more.

          • lady_black

            I’ll second that.

          • HeilMary1

            My anti-abortion mom disfigured me on purpose to prevent me from ever attracting a husband, and to kick sex out of her own marriage. My story is typical of the selfish misery, disease, poverty and abuse you fetal idolaters inflict on everyone else.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, yes, you should be quite busy. It’s . . . odd . . . that you appear to have so much time to spend with us. Not that we’re not enjoying your company, of course.

      • fiona64

        If you know of anyone who is going around stabbing babies in the brain, please contact your local law enforcement agency.

        • David Mills

          “Tearing a developed fetus apart, limb by limb, is an act
          of depravity that society should not permit. We cannot afford such a
          devaluation of human life, nor the desensitization of medical personnel
          it requires. This is not based on what the fetus might feel but on what
          we should feel in watching an exquisite, partly formed human being being
          dismembered.”

          He also expressed his frustration about women who take the abortion decision too lightly:

          “… I am revolted when I see how casually some couples
          choose an abortion – for the convenience of having a baby in June
          instead of February, for example. I do not believe that a civilized
          society should encourage this.”

          • Defamate

            What’s it like being such an ignorant fool?

            91% of abortions are before 13 weeks

            61% are before 9 weeks

            The majority of abortions are performed by pill or vacuum aspiration which merely expels the embryo from the woman’s uterus.

            This is what a typical abortion looks like:

            http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

            And opposing something because its ‘gross’ is not a good reason to oppose it. By your logic, birth should also be illegal, because it’s gross. Oh, and in birth, the woman’s vagina is often torn. So yeah, good enough reason to avoid birth don’t you agree?

          • David Mills

            I’m not a doctor, the man I quoted performed them. Can you tell me why you are so hateful? I haven’t said a mean word to you.

          • Defamate

            You came in here accusing *women* of being genocidal s1uts?

            You do realize that right?

            You do realize that this is really offensive? (especially to people who lost relatives in the holocaust)

          • David Mills

            I said no such thing. You did. I’m glad you’re not my judge.

          • Defamate

            You said no such thing eh?

            1) He also expressed his frustration about women who take the abortion decision too lightly: <–code word for s1uts

            2) you said that abortion is genocide

            Case closed.

          • David Mills

            From the Guttmacher Institute:

            • More than half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and about four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1,2] Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]

            • Forty-two percent of pregnancies among white women, 69% among blacks and 56% among Hispanics are unintended.[1]

            • In 2008, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31
            million in 2000. However, between 2005 and 2008, the long-term decline
            in abortions stalled. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions occurred.[2]

            • Each year, two percent of women aged 15–44 have an abortion. Half have had at least one previous abortion.[2,3]

            • At least half of American women will experience an unintended
            pregnancy by age 45, and, at current rates, one in 10 women will have an
            abortion by age 20, one in four by age 30 and three in 10 by age 45.[4,5]

            I didn’t make this up. 50 million abortions in America between 1973 and 2008.

            6 Million Jews were killed in the Holocaust in Germany. That was called Genocide. 50 Million babies are aborted between ’73 and ’08 and it’s a “choice”.
            Some of us see it differently. I’m asking you to see this the way others do. It’s a horrible thing, one that should not happen, and we’re at a loss as to how to convince you otherwise. Now, I was polite in my conversation, but no one else replying to me has been in any way polite. Obviously no one want to have a real discussion where there is give and take.

          • Defamate

            6 Million Jews were killed in the Holocaust in Germany. That was called Genocide.

            Yeah, because the Jewish people were targeted because the Germans wanted their STUFF.

            Tell me David, do women have abortions because they want an embryos STUFF?

            Now, I was polite in my conversation

            You have not been polite. You came in here accusing everyone of being genocidal maniacs who kill ‘unborn baybeez’ for fun.

            If you want respect, try not to act like a histrionic toddler.

          • David Mills

            I don’t need or crave respect, but it helps when having a conversation
            to have a mutual respect for the facts. The fact is the highest
            percentages of abortions are Black babies. Dispute that fact if you
            will, but rich, white liberals advocate abortion because of who gets the
            most abortions, and that is black women, who they secretly hate. They
            are happy that fewer black babies are born in the inner city. Instead
            of addressing the causes/ issues of unwanted pregnancies, they “help”
            black women by eliminating them. Say what you want, call me names, but
            that goes on. If you don’t think so, you should look at why planned
            parenthood was developed in the first place.

            Dr. King had this to say about it-
            Quote from Alveda King…”My grandfather, Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr., once said,
            “No one is going to kill a child of mine.” Tragically, two
            of his grandchildren had already been aborted when he saved
            the life of his next great-grandson with this statement. His
            son, King once said, “The Negro cannot win as long as he is
            willing to sacrifice the lives of his children for comfort
            and safety.” How can the “Dream” survive if we murder the
            children? Every aborted baby is like a slave in the womb of
            his or her mother. The mother decides his or her fate.

          • Defamate

            I don’t need or crave respect, but it helps when having a conversation to have a mutual respect for the facts. The fact is the highest percentages of abortions are Black babies

            You don’t have *any* respect for the facts. You came in here saying that embryos are people (not a fact) that abortion is genocide (not a fact) and that abortion is slavery (also not a fact)

            And yes, abortion is pretty high amongst black and other economically disadvantaged groups? Know why? Because these are the same people who often cannot afford contraception, live in poverty, and find themselves with too many kids to feed. Black women have the right to self-determination, and don’t you *dare* pretend to speak for them. if a black woman wants an abortion, that’s her right. You are NOT the saviour of the black people. Furthermore, black people overwhelmingly support Planned Parenthood and abortion.

            Every aborted baby is like a slave in the womb of
            his or her mother. The mother decides his or her fate.

            Did you know that during antebellum slavery, female slaves were forcibly impregnated by their owners and forced to give birth? That they were treated like mere livestock?

            These women often took herbs in order to ‘genocide’ their unborn rape babyeez.

            So tell me, David, black slave women who aborted – were they slave owners too? Or were they *worse* than the slave owners – because they committed an act of ‘genocide’?

          • David Mills

            First of all, get off slavery of the 1800’s, it adds nothing. This was Dr. Kings quote, not mine. Also, we are NOT addressing the real issues of the inner city blacks by making it easy to abort. Do you know how many people would love to adopt one of those babies whatever their color? Instead, we have to go to Romania, China, Peru, Russia, Czechoslovakia, and other far out places to find any babies to adopt.

            Everyone has a world view. It’s either naturalist, or supernaturalist. A naturalist, usually an atheist, thinks this is it, we are animal-like in nature, and there is nothing on the other side. Supernaturalists think we are superior to animals, have a soul, believe we are eternal beings, and are responsible for our actions. I take the second view. If you felt like me about it, can you see how devastating the doctrine of abortion is?

          • Defamate

            First of all, get off slavery of the 1800’s, it adds nothing.

            it adds *everything*

            You are claiming that abortion = slavery and genocide.

            Why would that NOT apply in the 1800s? How about slavery today? Women were raped en masse during the Bosnian war – only a short 20 years ago – would they also be guilty of genocide if they aborted? (and many aborted). Well? Were Bosnian women who aborted their rape pregnancies genocidal slave owners? YES or NO?

            . Also, we are NOT addressing the real issues of the inner city blacks by making it easy to abort.

            So force them to have kids they can’t feed which will only continue the cycle of hell that they are in and force them *deeper* onto poverty? Words fail me.

            Do you know how many people would love to adopt one of those babies whatever their color?

            Is that why black babies often go for 10k-20k less than white babies because adoptive families only want healthy WHITE male babies? Is that why the foster system is full of over 100k foster children who will NEVER be adopted because they are too old and too black?

            Instead, we have to go to Romania, China, Peru, Russia, Czechoslovakia, and other far out places to find any babies to adopt.

            Yeah you go there because you would prefer NOT to adopt the 100k older kids stuck in foster care, right? You want white babies! And because it’s now trendy in evangelical circles to adopt. But again, you ONLY seem to adopt babies, and not older children. Like that 100k I mentioned.

            Yeah, I get it.

            You think that every zygote has a soul.

            You’re a Christian.

            Which isn’t something I didn’t already know.

            Do you have any empirical PROOF that zygotes have a soul? Or are you just making up ‘facts’?

          • David Mills

            Too many points to take on here…so I’ll deal with the last one. Do you have empirical proof they don’t?

          • Defamate

            You are the one who is making a positive claim. You believe that embryos are people because they have souls.

            Prove it.

          • David Mills

            I’m not the one advocating abortion, you are. You if you are so eager to terminate, you better be the one who is absolutely positive you’re not taking a soul. Are you that positive?

          • HeilMary1

            So you and the brood mare attend “baby” tampon funerals every day for “grieving” relatives, co-workers, parishioners, etc.? And you have freezers full of “rescued” popsicle tampon “babies” that can be re-implanted? And you’re petitioning the Vatican to ban hundreds of abortifacient foods and chemicals, like coffee, holy wine and cigarettes?

          • lady_black

            Yes. A soul is breathing. That’s what the word translated as “soul” means. A physical body that breathes. ZEF aren’t souls until they breathe.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Yes, and I know that because the Book of Mormon says so.

          • lady_black

            He can’t. Because according to his Fairy Tale Book, people don’t *have* souls, they ARE souls. So are animals. “Soul”= Nephesh = “to take in breath. Therefore a “soul” is a physical body that breathes.

          • Defamate

            Take on my points cowboy.

            Or are you incapable of refuting them?

          • HeilMary1

            Do identical twins have HALF souls? Do chimera singletons have TWO souls? What about the dozens, even hundreds of coffee-aborted blastocysts that your wife has flushed away without so much as a Barbie-sized funeral?!

          • lady_black

            Soul =nephesh = “to take breath”. God breathed life into Adam’s nostrils and he *BECAME* a living soul. (Emphasis mine.) Does your Bible have a concordance? That helps, because it tells you the original word and language. You can find out the meaning of those original words with minimal research online. So NO, a zygote doesn’t “have” a soul, and it is not a soul until it takes the first breath. YOU don’t “have” a soul. Your soul is not some part of you, it’s YOU. Let’s look at Adam again and see what a soul is. 1) A physical body + 2) the breath of life. The soul is Adam himself. It’s what he *became* when he began to breathe. In the same way in death “the soul departs.” In essence, respirations cease, and at that very moment the body begins to decompose. If you want to be a Bible-banger, that’s fine. You ought to have a better understanding of what you’re banging, don’t you think? Otherwise, you only look unlearned. And yes I have studied the Bible for years. Also the Quran, and parts of the Torah. It’s a common misconception that atheists such as myself don’t understand scripture. To the contrary, we generally have a better understanding than most religious. Why? Because for us, it’s purely academic, so we’re actually researching, and not looking to some charlatan who wants our money to explain it to us as most “religious” folks do. They do understand, but they will tell you only what they want you to know, and in some cases, what they think you want to hear. Because that way, you keep giving them money. There is no money in telling you what the Bible really says.

          • lady_black

            Very interesting POV, David. Now let’s take a look at what your invisible sky daddy has to say about it in the Big Book of Fables, shall we? Go back to the Garden of Eden, the scene that plays out between Eve and Satan (in the form of a talking snake). Satan is “a liar and the father of a lie” (meaning the original liar.) What was the first *lie* ever told? “Ye shall not die.” The implication being of course, that had they been obedient they would have gone on living indefinitely. But of course, that isn’t how it played out, is it? “The wages sin pays is death.” So exactly how does that play into your strange notion that you’re an “eternal creature?” Your bible also makes references to sheol and hades (the place where the dead go) which means in modern English, the grave. You don’t even know what your own scriptures say. I’m an atheist myself. But I love hoisting the religious on their own petard.

          • David Mills

            … if your petard were true, but you twisted the Bible to suit yourself, and I can’t do anything about that.

            But whatever you think about the Bible, God and Christians, it’s about receiving forgiveness when it’s not deserved, about living the kind of live we should have lived, and because we are inherently evil, we need a “public defender” to keep us from going to hell. That public defender was Jesus. I don’t judge people because I deserve the worst. I want you to have what I have. It isn’t about finger pointing, it’s about grace undeserved.

          • lady_black

            Um, the words translated as “hell” in the Bible are three. In two of them (sheol and hades) “hell” is an actual place, the grave. Everyone goes there eventually, to sleep in death. Even Jesus went there, if you remember. The third word translated as “hell” is gehenna, which was an actual place in ancient times, but it was on earth. It was a garbage dump, where garbage, dead animals and the bodies of criminals were incinerated. It is a symbolic phrase for everlasting destruction, meaning those for whom there will be no resurrection. I’m not “twisting” anything. YOU ARE. I’m just telling you what your book says. You aren’t eternal, and your “soul” is YOU (so long as you’re alive). A body + breath. The idea of an “eternal soul” is a pagan idea.

          • HeilMary1

            Idiot, didn’t you notice that Jesus whipped the money changers instead of the midwife-abortionists? And that he served ABORTIFACIENT miracle wine to the Cana bride and her female guests?

          • P. McCoy

            I am African-American, tell me how many non White babies have you adopted.

          • Ella Warnock

            Maybe you deserve the worst. I certainly don’t. Aaaand, believe me, I don’t want what you have.

          • CJ99

            What you’re doing is using imaginary forgiveness as a sadistic “right” you think you’ve been given to abuse others. Odds are heavily slanted in favour of your seeing what hell really is personally. For the rest of is its being subjected to you & your ilk.

          • David Mills

            Yea, I like preaching forgiveness and the love of Jesus so I can play “got-cha” so I can feel superior in a faith that many died believing for no other reason than they blessed someone and were turned in to the authorities (aka North Korea and soon the USA). If you could hear us in one of our prayer meetings, you wouldn’t say what you just said.

          • CJ99

            If Jesus stood in front of you and heard what your spewing he’d say he doesn’t know you at all nor you him. You are not a follower of the creator or jesus you are a hate filled tyrant with a messianic complex. Luckily for the rest of this planet you have no followers which no doubt the real reason why you’re so angry & resentful of those of us who can live life fine ……. without you.

          • BJ Survivor

            Apparently, you need the specter of a vengeful sky daddy to keep you from running amok, but I and many, many others do not. I am plenty good without your petulant, genocidal sky daddy. Please get help before your grandiose delusions hurt more innocent people.

          • BJ Survivor

            You call it the “Big Book of Fables” and I like to call it the “Wholly Babble.” I read it, in it’s entirety, at age 16 in an effort to get to know my god after I became a born-again Christian. It took me a long time to read it — even though I taught myself to read before I was in preschool (my parents always read to me and taught me the alphabet and I just figured it out, like a math equation) and had been reading at a college level while still in elementary school — because it’s so badly written/translated. What I found had me honestly horrified. I went agnostic immediately and then, eventually, atheist.

            I was very bitter, for a long time, at having been duped into believing that the christian deity was a being of love and justice. What a joke. Except way worse, because good, kind, loving people who happened to have a “defect” of some sort or who happened to love those with the same shape of genitals as their own were maligned and led to be abused by the majority of society and even to hate themselves based on the hateful bovine excrement contained within those pages.

          • lady_black

            And of course you DO realize that no woman is obligated to go through an unwanted pregnancy to provide a cute infant to be sold to the highest bidder, right? That would be the definition of a slave. Thinking you have any interest in the physical body of another and anything that issues from that body belongs to you. It doesn’t.

          • HeilMary1

            There are 153,000,000 orphans worldwide, with 100,000 in the US needing adoption, and 20,000 US orphans aging out of the system annually. 5,000 aged-out orphans end up in jail. How many of those leftover kids have YOU tried to adopt?? How is your “solution” of doubling and tripling their competition going to help them?? Maybe your wealth comes from JAILING those kids at taxpayers’ expense!? — in which case, no wonder you oppose abortion! — you need more juvies for your for-profit concentration camps!

            And those 50 million “missing” Americans? — I promise you that most would be UNEMPLOYED, DISABLED OR IN JAIL. Maybe one of these days, one of your “rescued” fetuses will carjack you “in gratitude”.

          • David Mills

            You have officially lost your mind.

          • Defamate

            Ableist.

          • ldwendy

            Where do you get your statistics about orphans from? I’m really curious.

          • HeilMary1

            Racist bigot, black women, because of their smaller pelvic structure, have the highest rates of death and injuries like ruinous obstetric incontinence. How disgusting of you to force premature deaths and grisly injuries on black women and leave millions of their already born kids orphaned! If you really cared about saving blacks, you’d be in Africa handing out condoms to prevent pregnancy and HIV deaths. Alveda is a greedy traitor to her grandparents who recognized Sanger’s efforts in preventing black maternal deaths and injuries. You are a slimy liar.

          • goatini

            Dr King’s children have disowned that vicious pretender and attempted usurper and exploiter of a great man’s legacy. That vicious pretender has also attacked the late Coretta Scott King for her support of gay equality with this vile statement: “She was married to him. I’ve got his DNA. She doesn’t. She didn’t. She’s passed away.”

            Oh, and that vicious pretender HAD HER CHOICE, and wants to strip women of those choices, by stripping female US citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights. That vicious pretender has ZERO to do with the legacy of Dr King, and EVERYTHING to do with being a vile liar and hypocrite.

            And one more thing – it is people like you, and that vicious pretender, who wish to sentence female US citizens with unwanted pregnancies to involuntary servitude and gestational slavery against their will. YOU are on the side of the slavers.

          • CJ99

            You’re a brazen liar on all counts, you do crave attention & control over others, that’s 2 of the 3 legs of the religious reichs unholy trinity. You also do not respect facts, you don’t have any. All you do is lie so badly in fact the word pathological doesn’t even come close to covering what you are.

          • HeilMary1

            Fetuses have little Barbie doll accessories?! Who knew?! Does Mattel know? Did God cut Mattel out of humanity’s best marketing deal?

          • HeilMary1

            Dummy, abortion is humanity’s oldest medical intervention because childbirth killed 20% of all women and grossly injured the rest. Why do you think harems were so important to patriarchs? Why do you think the Vatican banned priests’ marriages to “piles of dung” MOTHERS? Why do you think most GOPers cheat on and trade in their brood mares? Why are Depends diapers only marketed to women?

            Women have had trillions and trillions of abortions, and you’ve committed dozens yourself just by serving abortifacient coffee, tea and holy wine to sexually active women.

          • normajeana

            David, my advice to you is to not have an abortion. Oh- wait- you can’t get pregnant. Hmmm, well then, why don’t you and your wife go into your bedroom and have a little intercourse. While you are at it, remember that what you and she do with each other is none of anyone else’s business. And what other (consenting adults) people do to and with each other is none of yours. And if a female is raped and ends up with an unwanted pregnancy, and you and the misses are willing to pay for her medical care for the duration of the pregnancy, and for the medical expenses of the delivery, and then agree to take the child and raise it as your own, maybe she won’t have an abortion. Until then, MYOB. Go read your bible- because clearly you missed all the killings ordered by your god of all those children and fetuses! I know it is confusing- all those contradictions in the old and new testament by people who clearly were trying to impose their own values on their tribes by claiming it was the will of god.

          • lady_black

            He has no idea what his Bible even says, because he has never looked into the original language of key terms to find out what they mean. He knows only what his preacher (who wants his money) tells him.

          • lady_black

            If you’re referring to Dr. Nathanson, he’s a proven liar. Read up on the massive fraud known as “The Silent Scream” and the criticism of it by other doctors who totally debunked it.

          • HeilMary1

            You treat all women as throw-away incubators for pedophile priests.

          • fiona64

            Care to cite your source instead of just plagiarizing?

          • David Mills

            Trying, but keeps getting deleted

          • fiona64

            Then how is it that I was able to see it and call it out as an anti-choice website, as opposed to the “Los Angeles Times,” as you claimed?

            Honesty is not the strong suit of the average anti-choicer, is it?

          • David Mills

            Interesting you’re accusing me of not being honest. The original article was from the Times

          • fiona64

            Your link wasn’t … so if it really was from the Times (either LA or NY, you’ve claimed both so far), surely you can post a link to the original?

          • David Mills

            Dr. George Flesh, 1994, NY Times. Cannot provide link, not allowed

          • fiona64

            Nope, I saw it … and even made a reply. It was from lifenews dot org, an anti-choice website with ZERO credibility.

            Just. Like. You.

          • Defamate

            fiona. the Geroge Flesh thing was just posted over at LAN. It’s giving PJ4 a boner.

          • lady_black

            If it’s “partly formed” then it isn’t a human being yet, is it? In my experience it has been decidedly inconvenient to be pregnant ever. I have children, and I love them dearly. But them getting here has never been what I would consider “convenient.” Convenient is a pharmacy or delicatessen located inside the grocery store. Or buying a six-pack of beer at the sub shop. Furthermore, Einstein… women who want to time their pregnancies, time their pregnancies. They don’t do it by abortion.

          • David Mills

            “Furthermore, Einstein… women who want to time their pregnancies, time their pregnancies. They don’t do it by abortion.”

            Says you. I didn’t say it…the abortion doctor said it. He says it happens, you say it doesn’t. He’s the doctor. Who’s right?

          • lady_black

            He’s a terrible liar.

          • David Mills

            Have you worked in an abortion clinic?

          • lady_black

            No. But I would. Sorry, I just don’t believe anyone goes through the cost and inconvenience of abortion to give birth in June instead of February. But even if they did, it’s none of my business. Yours either.

          • HeilMary1

            Do you and your favorite priests go on Viagra sprees in child brothels?

          • HeilMary1

            I’m revolted by the grisly injuries inflicted by childbirth, like the pregnancy-caused face-eating cancer that slowly killed my best friend. I’m revolted by the criminal child abuse you fetal worshipers inflict on us already born unwanted. I’m revolted by your child-raping cult.

          • CJ99

            The only depravity is seeing your hate filled bullshit.

          • David Mills

            Wow, you are feeling guilty, or else you wouldn’t even care.

          • CJ99

            Nope wrong again. Feel free to pickout a booby prize though. What you don’t get (cause your a willful buffoon) is your bullshit still isn’t believed. The reason you keep getting stomped on is you keep on being a vengeful petty dolt who revels in causing pain. Hence your hairy butt keeps getting kicked.

        • fiona64

          Reply to David Mills, in moderation:

          An anti-choice site is not a reliable source. Please provide evidence from mainstream media of people going around “stabbing babies in the brain.”

          I’ll wait.

          ::crickets::

          That’s what I thought.

          Thanks for proving once again how easy it is to be an anti-choice male.

          • HeilMary1

            Actually, a “devout Catholic” babysitter in VA just got 5 years for lethally bashing in the head of the crying toddler she was hired to look after. Mind you, this toddler never damaged her body, but simply annoyed her with his crying. She swung him upside down into hard objects, then smothered his nose and mouth.

            22-year-old Jessica Fraraccio hit the jackpot in judicial leniency, but I’m sure already born tots don’t matter to David Mills.

      • lady_black

        Another fetal derangement syndrome sufferer obsessing over it’s sicko fantasies of “stabbing babies in the brain.” So many x-tians, so few lions.

      • P. McCoy

        Women dying because a surgeon refused to begin to excise that life threatening fetus (not bayyyybee) from the head- that’s called self defense bud, instead of accepting sucide, is far worse. No more Savitad EVER AGAIN

        • David Mills

          You’re pulling the argument to an isolated case. So This is justification to eliminate 50 million babies?

          • Defamate

            Yes.

            Abortion is not genocide. It is not slavery. It is self-defense. The fetus is the slaveowner. The fetus HURTS the woman.

            “That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory
            distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.”

            Data modeling suggesting 21/100,000 US maternal mortality rate

            In 2004/2005, 1.7 million women per year suffered adverse health effects

            http://search.worldbank.org/data?qterm=us%20maternal%20mortality%20rate&language=EN

            http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/campaigns/demand-dignity/maternal-health-is-a-human-right/maternal-health-in-the-us

            http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

            Normal, frequent
            or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness
            common from first weeks)

            altered appetite
            and senses of taste and smell

            nausea and vomiting
            (50% of women, first trimester)

            heartburn and indigestion

            constipation

            weight gain

            dizziness and light-headedness

            bloating, swelling,
            fluid retention

            hemmorhoids

            abdominal cramps

            yeast infections

            congested, bloody
            nose

            acne and mild skin
            disorders

            skin discoloration
            (chloasma, face and abdomen)

            mild to severe backache
            and strain

            increased headaches

            difficulty sleeping,
            and discomfort while sleeping

            increased urination
            and incontinence

            bleeding gums

            pica

            breast pain and
            discharge

            swelling of joints,
            leg cramps, joint pain

            difficulty sitting,
            standing in later pregnancy

            inability to take
            regular medications

            shortness of breath

            higher blood pressure

            hair loss

            tendency to anemia

            curtailment of ability
            to participate in some sports and activities

            infection
            including from serious and potentially fatal disease

            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
            non-pregnant women, and
            are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

            extreme pain on
            delivery

            hormonal mood changes,
            including normal post-partum depression

            continued post-partum
            exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
            — major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
            fully recover)

            Normal, expectable,
            or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse
            in younger women)

            loose skin

            permanent weight
            gain or redistribution

            abdominal and vaginal
            muscle weakness

            pelvic floor disorder
            (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
            and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
            incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
            the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

            changes to breasts

            varicose veins

            scarring from episiotomy
            or c-section

            other permanent
            aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
            by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

            increased proclivity
            for hemmorhoids

            loss of dental and
            bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

            newer research indicates
            microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
            mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications
            and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy

            spousal/partner
            abuse

            hyperemesis gravidarum

            temporary and permanent
            injury to back

            severe
            scarring
            requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)

            dropped (prolapsed)
            uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
            pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
            and enterocele)

            pre-eclampsia
            (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
            with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

            eclampsia (convulsions,
            coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

            gestational diabetes

            placenta previa

            anemia (which
            can be life-threatening)

            thrombocytopenic
            purpura

            severe cramping

            embolism
            (blood clots)

            medical disability
            requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
            many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
            or baby)

            diastasis recti,
            also torn abdominal muscles

            mitral valve stenosis
            (most common cardiac complication)

            serious infection
            and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

            hormonal imbalance

            ectopic pregnancy
            (risk of death)

            broken bones (ribcage,
            “tail bone”)

            hemorrhage
            and

            numerous other complications
            of delivery

            refractory gastroesophageal
            reflux disease

            aggravation of pre-pregnancy
            diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
            of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
            prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

            severe post-partum
            depression and psychosis

            research now indicates
            a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
            including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

            research also now
            indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
            in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

            research also indicates
            a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
            and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but
            serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy

            cardiopulmonary
            arrest

            magnesium toxicity

            severe hypoxemia/acidosis

            massive embolism

            increased intracranial
            pressure, brainstem infarction

            molar pregnancy,
            gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced
            cancer)

            malignant arrhythmia

            circulatory collapse

            placental abruption

            obstetric fistula

            More
            permanent side effects:

            future infertility

            permanent disability

            death.

          • ldwendy

            Last time I discussed how the fetus hurts the woman or acts as a parasite on LAN, PJ cited an article about how fetal cells can cure cancer.

          • Defamate

            And they can cause cancer. Was this article from the daily mail? Its a freak event. Imagine you get shot and during the operation the docs excise a tumour. Her examples are 1) not the rule 2) any benefits do not last 3) these so called benefits do not outweigh the risks 4) Immune system dampening can result in massive flare ups after birth 5) pregnancy can cause diabetes, cancer, depression etc 6) if pregnancy was so healthy across the board, pregnant women would be healthier than celibate women like nuns. They are not.

            And get in the habit of punching her sentences into Google. You might be surprised at what you find

          • lady_black

            My lovely daughter, who just had her first baby in August, always jokingly referred to her fetus as “my little parasite.” This was an unplanned, but much wanted pregnancy, The baby is nanny’s little angel. But in her joking way, my daughter knew the truth about pregnancy. All mammal fetuses exist in a parasitic relationship to the maternal organism. It takes by force, whatever nutrients it needs from the mother’s body, and there is no benefit to the mother at all in pregnancy, beyond a possibility of passing on her genes. Fetal cells can cure cancer? Horse hockey! It can make estrogen-dependent cancer WORSE. Maybe she’s confusing fetal cells with stem cells?

          • Defamate

            Here is the post where she proves that fetii do not in any way function as parasites:

            http://liveactionnews org/abortions-unanswerable-question-who-are-we-missing/#comment-1220790052

          • HeilMary1

            My best friend’s lethal estrogen-sensitive facial skin cancer was triggered by her two daughters.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Is this list available on a website I can link to? I need this information for another argument I’m having.

          • Defamate

            Is this for the debate over on No Termination Without Representation? With the guy who thinks that embryos are ‘younger’ and therefore have a greater right to life than anything else because they ‘have a longer life to live’ ???

            http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/004.htm

            I am one of the people he speaks of – marshmallow/RonPaul2012

            I took to ignoring him on TFA, and instead watched you and Anon Y Mous decimate him :P

          • Timothy Griffy

            Yes, this is for that debate. I’m getting ready to talk about a “relatively smooth pregnancy,” and that is why I need the information.

            I don’t know if I’m decimating him. I do need to avoid a pointless fight with Anon Y Mous though.

          • Defamate

            Dude, you are rocking it. I am quite impressed. NTWR is a dumbass who hides behind semantics. Plus he is a misogynist. If you need more advice on health and pregnancy I urge you to message the user ‘lady black’ on this site. I believe she has posted on this thread. She is a nurse and knows all about pregnancy and health. Also fiona64.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Thanks. I will probably have to rely on it. My major was Religious Studies, and the mechanics of pregnancy doesn’t often come up in that field. :)

            I have a bit more respect for him than I do most “pro-lifers,” as I’m sure you’ve seen in following that debate. He does hide too much behind semantics, but I have to admit he’s gotten me thinking more about my own positions.

            Is there a way you can contact me privately via Discus?

          • Defamate

            No. Email would be best. Set up a temporary email, post it here, then delete it after I copy it down?

          • Timothy Griffy

            Works for me. tgriffy2000@yahoo.com.

          • Defamate

            Got it. Delete it by typing in gibberish using the edit key. Deleting posts won’t actually work. Its late so tomorrow I will contact you?

          • Timothy Griffy

            Sounds good.

          • Defamate

            Sent you that email.

          • Defamate

            What happens to women’s lives when they are denied abortion:

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/magazine/study-women-denied-abortions.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

            Information on pregnancy and health risks:

            http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/

            The kind of world that NTWR is asking for if he gets his way (just imagine how horrible it would be in India)

            “”””For doctors and medical workers, the woman bleeding from a botched abortion was a familiar figure in hospital emergency rooms in the 1950s and ’60s. Entire wards were given over to patients suffering from septic abortions. Women tried to abort themselves with abortifacients or irritants administered as douches: Lysol, soap, kerosene, vinegar, powdered mustard, bleach, among others. They used, or others on them, garden hoses, syringes, telephone wire, coat hangers, nut picks, pencils, catheters, and chopsticks. They were brought into hospital wards by the hundreds, bleeding from perforated uteruses. In 1962, for instance, Cook County Hospital in Chicago treated nearly five thousand women for abortion-related complications. Police crackdowns forced women to self-abort or resort to untrained specialists, with the result that deaths increased, doubling in New York City between 1951 and 1962. In the 1960s, they accounted for nearly half of maternal mortality.””””

            “The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion”

            http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

            Some other random links that may be of interest to readers:

            1) pregnancy is inherently dangerous:

            http://www.skepticalob.com/2009/08/inherent-risks-of-childbirth.html

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

            http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/004.htm

            2) a good essay on what makes life valuable, relevant to points made about potential/actuality/personhood:

            http://www.abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/864/

            3) a good debate, again, about potentiality vs. actuality:

            http://infidels.org/library/modern/debates/secularist/abortion/

            Pro-lifers like to argue that the woman and fetus are in blissful
            harmony. This is not the case. Maternal-fetal conflict is responsible for a thickened uterine lining and menstruation in human females. Human females menstruate to protect themselves from greedy embryos:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3528014/

            Fetal pain. The most up to date fetal pain research that I could find was from the RCOG and the link from this blog. But then I found this:

            http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2811%2900885-2

            Highlights

            The human brain may discriminate touch from pain from 35–37 weeks gestation

            Before 35–37 weeks, touch and noxious lance evoke nonspecific neuronal bursts

            After 35–37 weeks, touch and noxious lance evoke modality-specific potentials

          • Defamate

            I am reading your discussion now…

            this may help (I used part of it on him, but didn’t continue the convo)

            http://praxeology.net/RTL-Abortion.htm

            He is really really wedded to the ‘potential’ of the life and to how a woman’s future can’t possibly compete with that of the fetus. And of course, the fetus is ‘innocent’ and it’s ‘biology’ that does all the harm, therefore, the woman can’t defend herself!

            And what right does a woman have to a better life for herself through education! How trivial!

            He’s a jerk.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Then as you know, I also have regard for the potential, just not at the expense of the actual woman. I’m still kind of working that out, and a couple of your links will prove useful for my own thinking even without regard to that debate.

            I think I was pretty effective in showing him that it was quite possible that his own “life panels” would rule in the woman’s favor when it came to education.

          • Defamate

            Sorry for spamming you. I can never remember all of my resources at once:P I have a full binder full of bookmarks:P

            I have tried to put myself into the pro-life position and think about ‘potential’. It can be quite sad to think of all the people who will *never* exist. Just think of all of the artists, writers, and humanitarians who will never exist. There is an infinite # of genetic combinations that will never come to be – simply because women can only have around 20 babies in their lifetime, not everyone can have sex with everyone else, and the woman’s body routinely flushes out even healthy zygotes.

            All that potential human life…gone. But as you said, the living come first. Those who can feel. Potential should not override actual. And I finished reading the debate you’re doing great. He really doesn’t have that strong an argument. Women used to have to go before panels back in the day – and it was humiliating. I don’t know what fantasy world he is living in. A woman could say that she would rather die than give birth, and the panel could decide that she is lying, and deny her the abortion. And then she kills herself?

            And he really is making a mockery of the side effects of pregnancy. I do think you have a very strong case, especially with all of the links I have given you. Physical + mental health together do override the potential of a zygote. And a woman’s future – pregnancy free – isn’t just mere ‘potential’ in the sense that a zygote has potential. It is her right to have her own identity – the right to self-determination.

          • Timothy Griffy

            No problem with the “spamming.” Like I said, I can probably use all the information I can get when I start directly challenging him on risk factors and whatnot.

            Interestingly enough, I’m not horribly worried about lost artists, writers, and humanitarians. As a Mormon, I believe they already exist and will eventually get their chance no matter a particular woman does with a particular pregnancy. I’m more interested in developing the theological/moral aspect of human potentiality.

            I did point out the problem that his life panels could wind up having the opposite effect of what he intended. I think your link about what women did before abortion was legal will prove especially useful in that regard.

            I think he is very naive when it comes to the side effects and risks of pregnancy. I would go even further, and say physical + mental + spiritual + social + economic health together override the potential of the zygote.

          • Defamate

            You should have my email now in case you need to contact me privately. If you don’t see it, it may have gone to spam.

          • Timothy Griffy

            I’ll be checking for it once I’ve finished working through and/or responding to other comments here.

          • Defamate

            BJ_Survivor is a nurse. If you need any more info, you may want to pick her brain:

            http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/01/29/hr-7-consequences-women-made-bear/#comment-1225869150

            “”Actually, studies I’ve read have shown that pregnancy itself puts enormous pressure on a woman’s pelvic organs and often results in incontinence later in life. C-sections have their own set of problems, since they are major abdominal surgery. They are absolutely not safer than uncomplicated vaginal delivery. That said, the availability of C-sections that don’t result in death of the woman have done a lot to reduce the incidence of maternal mortality. If you are new to Disqus, you can see what interesting things someone has said by clicking on their name (providing their history isn’t hidden). So you can click on BJ’s nickname, and learn lotsa stuff!

            lady_black is also v knowledgeable:

            “”we don’t KNOW which will become life-threatening. They are all potentially life-threatening. We don’t know who will develop
            pre-eclampsia. We don’t know which ones will become placenta previa. We don’t know which ones will result in placental abruption. We don’t know which ones will result in myometrial invasion by the chorionic villi. We don’t know which ones will become molar pregnancies (which is a cancerous growth resulting from improper changes in the zygote). We
            don’t know how many will result in missed abortion. We don’t know which ones will result in fetal anomalies so profound as to be incompatible with life. These are just a few things that can go wrong during pregnancy. There are too many to go into here.”‘

            “”In many cases the mother doesn’t have time to “wait.” For example, in cases of pre-eclampsia (toxemia of pregnancy), or uterine rupture, or placental abruption. The treatment for those is to end the pregnancy immediately. In fact, the pregnancy MUST be ended, or the mother will die. Whether or not the fetus survives or not is irrelevant. If it’s late enough in pregnancy, saving the fetus may be possible! But in any case, the mother hasn’t the luxury of “waiting until term.” You are what
            happens when someone has just enough knowledge to be extremely dangerous. I have a better idea. How about we leave the practice of medicine to actual doctors, and you stick to what you know… whatever that is. You must have some gift to give the world, but obstetrics ain’t it.””””

            ————

            Ok, I think you’re set now, with this avalanche of information:P

          • Timothy Griffy

            I think so too. Now I just have to go through it all and decide what is going to be most useful.

          • Defamate

            I was going to respond to you but your email is broken? I get return to sender!

          • Timothy Griffy

            I’m still getting e-mail just fine. Please try again. Use the one with my whole name.

          • Defamate

            That’s the one I am using. Weird. I tried twice and got return to sender. Will try again, and will type it in this time.

          • Timothy Griffy

            I got the one you sent from your other address. Look there for a reply.

          • Defamate

            Dang, I have sooo many links that I keep forgetting.

            Ok, THIS one should help to cement your position:

            http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/536420/20140129/opera-singer-amy-herbst-farting-flatulence-negligent.htm#.UurvELSr6Hs

            Opera singer has a ‘relatively smooth pregnancy’ and at birth, someone makes a mistake and now her career is in RUINS.

            This is something that could NOT have been predicted.

            So, who else but the woman should decide how much risk she is going to undergo? Does someone have to lose their livelihood for a zygote? Because that’s what he is doing. And no, statistics don’t mean squat. For example (and you can use this too) my boyfriend recently took an antibiotic for the flu that in 0.01pct of patients causes *tendon rupture*. So you think well, only 0.01pct of patients, has to be safe right? His tendons didn’t rupture…but he suffered from intense all over body pain for days. So right there – ONLY the person taking the risk can decide what is too much for them.

            Anyways, back to birth injuries. Obstetric fistulas are actually pretty common:

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

            Every birth damages a woman’s body:

            A c-section is NOT a great alternative, I got this from a nurse:

            “”A C-section is major abdominal surgery with its attendent risks (see the stats on mortality rates from surgery – currently the 3rd leading cause of death in the US); epidurals stop the contractions so the baby then is birthed by the peristalsis of the uterine contraction but has to be PULLED out causing trauma to both mother and child. Episiotomies are “knife cuts” and take a long time to heal (similar to when you cut your hand – the straight cut takes longer than a jagged cut) plus episiotomies increase the chance of tearing and scaring. The difference between a uterus that hasn’s held a child to term and birthed it, and a uterus that has is the amount of scar tissue – after birth – LOTS of scar tissue.””

          • Timothy Griffy

            I’m sure this will prove useful as well. Thanks.

          • Defamate

            http://www.m.webmd.com/baby/news/20060418/pregnancy-spacing-affects-outcome

            Birth spacing results in healthier babies and lower infant mortality. Ban abortion and much of that potential is wasted due to higher infant and even maternal mortality.

          • Timothy Griffy

            That I did know. I was my sister’s coach for the birth of my nephew, and one of the classes discussed that subject. During that time, the women were urged to practice some form of birth control after delivery. I don’t remember what the recommended spacing was/is.

            Your does remind me of one irony. My discussion with NTwR actually began in the comment section of that article. There were a lot of comments about one of the stories in particular that many, including myself, found disturbing. But the woman also mentioned that she had just given birth not very long before discovering she was pregnant again. As such, an abortion would have probably been medically indicated anyway, regardless of the aspects of the story commentators found disturbing.

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t forget Baltimore nurse Sandy Wilson’s $5 million c-section that got flesh eating bacteria.

          • Defamate
          • Defamate

            Here is an example of how the risks of childbirth can ruin a woman’s career:

            http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-buzz/opera-singer-suing-hospital-episiotomy-left-her-severe-162302400.html

            She had an episiotomy during birth, and now she can’t sing without passing gas.

            You expect a woman to give up her life, her dreams, her future, for a microscopic cell because you believe that cell has a ‘soul’

            “”

            “As a result of her incontinence and excessive flatulence, Herbst has been unable to work as a professional opera singer,” the lawsuit states.

            The lawsuit also claims that Herbst now suffers pain during sex.””

            ——–

            But abortion is NEVER for health right? Or at least, you don’t think it should be right? Because you don’t believe that women should have the same right to self-determination as men, right? That women are inferior to the contents of their uterii, right?

            No, if she had had an abortion because she put her career and health first, you’d tell us that she was a genocidal slave owner…right?

            Well, would you?

          • lady_black

            No babies are ever harmed in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. The unviable human tissue is expelled or removed from the uterus of an unwilling host. That’s ALL that happens.

          • P. McCoy

            Self Defense is not isolated and can save the lives of 50 million women. If the females in your life want to commit suicide that is their own business, not mine. Also, you. refuse to comprehend. :fetuses zygotes, embryos are NOT babies, sentient women are. Again, if you are against abortion THEN DON’T HAVE ONE. Abortion is our right to have and to exercise, without guilt, without compromise.

  • dirkjohanson

    It doesn’t help that those who are having more sex seek to sponge off the others by getting them to pay for their birth control pills, abortions, etc. I love sex, and have a lot of it with many women, but I don’t ask other people to buy my condoms, vibrating rings, Wet Platinum, harnesses, Cum Kleen … well, you get the picture.

    • MissNormaDesmond

      Nor are women asking anyone to buy those things for them. They’re asking to have the visit to the gynecologist they have to make in order to get a prescription for birth control, as well as the medication involved, considered part of the rest of their health care, because it is. Just as men want the visit to their doctor they have to make in order to be prescribed Viagra covered — which they have every right to have as well. In a world run by adults who have sane attitudes about sex, instead of repressed, angry, perpetual emotional adolescents, this wouldn’t be an issue. In this one, it is.

      • P. McCoy

        Fun dies also see sex in media where there is no sex say in a woman’s uncovered hair at church or a kneecap, a bare shoulder or elbow. Their mindset rarely sees the violence splattered all over television and ads for movies. If you all here want to read something twisted and prurient, take a look at the Catholic Answers forum website- the pervs constantly drone on in detail about the question :is maturbation a sin. It’s very telling how sex starved and exhibitionistic these people are

      • dirkjohanson

        Yes, women are. Men haven’t rallied to pass a law that says that Viagra has to be covered by insurance, and that the cost has to be shifted onto members of the opposite sex.

        • Defamate

          1. Erectile dysfunction drugs
          From Viagra to Cialis, if a man has trouble getting or maintaining an erection (a common occurrence with age or with certain diseases), a pharmaceutical company has a $15 pill for that. And, in many cases, the man’s insurance company picks up the tab.

          2. Vacuum erection devices
          Famously covered by Medicare (as well as some private insurance companies), men with erectile dysfunction that won’t or can’t go the pill route do have a another option. Though it first raised eyebrows in Austin Powers and is better known as a masturbatory aide, vacuum erection devices do work as advertised by will cost insurance companies $300-$500 a pop.

          3. Penile implants
          If a man’s erectile dysfunction can’t be mitigated with pharmaceuticals or vacuum devices, there’s yet another method insurance companies will pay for afflicted men to try: penile implants. Though most urologists tend to use more modern inflatable models, which require users to manually inflate their own erections, some urologists hew to the older semi-rigid models despite their potential complications. Either way, the $10,000-$20,000 cost of the implants is often covered by insurance, particularly if the erectile dysfunction is the result of a disease or a side effect of surgery.

          4. Vasectomies
          Non-permanent male birth control options are still limited to condoms, the Vatican-approved rhythm method and the Biblically-condemned pull-out method. But for those men absolutely convinced their child-bearing days should come to an end before their intercourse-having days, a $500-$1,000 vasectomy is usually covered by their insurance. (Notably, most insurance plans do not cover a $6,000-$15,000 vasectomy reversal.)

          5. Circumcision
          Though circumcision is the subject of much debate in the United States, it is not considered a medically necessary procedure in most cases. Nonetheless, most private insurers cover circumcisions for newborns (which can cost about $100 out-of-pocket) and a few companies cover adult circumcision, which is significantly more expensive.

          ———-

          Contraception is CHEAPER than pregnancy. When the average pregnancy costs 20k, you had better believe it will save billions.

          • dirkjohanson

            People shouldn’t have to subsidize the cost of other people’s pregnancies, either, but under Obamacare, they now do. Moreover, there isn’t necessarily a tradeoff between contraception cost and pregnancies unless one believes that in the long run, there will be fewer pregnancies, since it may very well be the case that there will be just as many pregnancies with free birth control, just at different times.

            If you want people to bitch less about your lifestyle, don’t make them pay for your lifestyle. Male sluts like me are happy to pick up the cost, at least if you’re hot.

          • HeilMary1

            “at least if you’re hot”

            There is your ugly heart of darkness, pig man MOTHER KILLER. Get a clue why most women don’t meet your looks standards: CHILDBIRTH DISFIGURED THEM. If you want a safe world not teaming with billions of homeless, sickly orphans picking your pockets, and filled instead by hot-looking CHILD-FREE women, you must insist that women’s insurance cover family planning. Because we women already PAID for the contraceptives through our premiums, and we already paid for your UNDESERVED Viagra!

          • BJ Survivor

            Wait, did you spring out, fully-formed, from your father’s forehead? No? Then women having affordable access to life-saving prenatal care and hospital births most certainly benefitted you and everyone who has ever been born. Get a clue.

          • dirkjohanson

            Electricity benefits you, no? Then why don’t you pay my electric bill. Get a clue.

          • HeilMary1

            Because we’re not using YOUR electricity. You want us to pay our own electricity even if YOU SHUT IT OFF because YOU THINK we’re “morally undeserving to receive WHAT WE ALREADY PAID FOR.

          • BJ Survivor

            As taxpayers, we ALL pay for the infrastructure that supports electricity generation and delivery, so your point is…? You pay for the electricity you actually use at the point source, your home. Health insurance IS NOT like electricity. You are the one that needs to get a clue not only about how insurance works, but how to construct a proper analogy.

        • HeilMary1

          Liar, Viagra ALREADY is covered by Medicare and insurance premiums paid for by us scorned female taxpayers and insurance subscribers. And cheapskate Rush Limbaugh STOLE his doctor’s Viagra!

          • dirkjohanson

            Viagra is apparently covered by only some Medicare insurers; there is no law saying it has to be covered, and in fact there are laws saying it can’t be covered by Medicare, though there are apparently some loopholes allowing it to be covered in some instances despite the ban.

            Rush Limbaugh is a big fat asshole.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re no improvement over Rush.

        • MissNormaDesmond

          Making sense isn’t something you feel much of a commitment to, is it? Men haven’t had to rally to protect their access to prescriptions for Viagra through their health insurance policies, because no one’s rallied to attempt to deny that to them. Women (and men who aren’t chuckleheads) have rallied to protect women’s access to birth control through their health insurance policies in response to a concerted effort made to deprive them of it. As for this somehow constituting the cost’s being shifted to someone else, now you’re just making stuff up out of whole cloth. Have fun with that.

          • dirkjohanson

            The truth is something you have no commitment to.

            There was no concerned effort to deprive women from getting free (“access”… lolz) birth control through health insurance until women demanded laws requiring that it be covered.

            In fact, people have made a concerted effort to deprive men to access to Viagra, and Congress passed a law prohibiting most Medicare from covering it, and similar laws have been passed on the state level.

          • HeilMary1

            Most women are only asking for AFFORDABLE bc through co-pays, but Catholic extremists insist they pay full price out of pocket, while picking those women’s purses to keep PRIESTS supplied with FREE Viagra.

          • expect_resistance

            Once again complete crap. No one is taking away your access to your little blue pills. This “concerned effort” you mention was a protest against anti-choice legislation.

          • dirkjohanson

            Right, so when people protest against paying the entire cost of something women want, its denial of access, but when people protest against paying even any of the cost of something men want, its not denial of access.

            Just the usual double-standard feminists impose on society.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong again. The legislation to “restrict” access to Viagra was done “tongue-in-cheek” a rhetorical rebuttal to the oppressive anti-woman legislation restricting access to reproductive health care. Women’s reproductive rights are under serious attach from the right. Your Viagra is not under attack.

            The Affordable Care Act contains a provision to make certain preventive services available without co-pays, co-insurance or deductibles. Birth control pills are part of preventative care, as to prevent a pregnancy. What does Viagra prevent?

            Under the ACA these are preventive health services for adults:

            Most health plans must cover a set of preventive services like shots and screening tests at no cost to you. This includes Marketplace private insurance plans.

            Free preventive services
            All Marketplace plans and many other plans must cover the following list of preventive services without charging you a copayment or coinsurance. This is true even if you haven’t met your yearly deductible. This applies only when these services are delivered by a network provider.

            Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm one-time screening for men of specified ages who have ever smoked

            Alcohol Misuse screening and counseling

            Aspirin use to prevent cardiovascular disease for men and women of certain ages

            Blood Pressure screening for all adults

            Cholesterol screening for adults of certain ages or at higher risk

            Colorectal Cancer screening for adults over 50

            Depression screening for adults

            Diabetes (Type 2) screening for adults with high blood pressure

            Diet counseling for adults at higher risk for chronic disease

            HIV screening for everyone ages 15 to 65, and other ages at increased risk

            Immunization vaccines for adults–doses, recommended ages, and recommended populations vary:

            Hepatitis A

            Hepatitis B

            Herpes Zoster

            Human Papillomavirus

            Influenza (Flu Shot)

            Measles, Mumps, Rubella

            Meningococcal

            Pneumococcal

            Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis

            Varicella

            Obesity screening and counseling for all adults

            Sexually Transmitted Infection (STI) prevention counseling for adults at higher risk

            Syphilis screening for all adults at higher risk

            Tobacco Use screening for all adults and cessation interventions for tobacco users

          • dirkjohanson

            An actual ban of Medicare funding for Viagra was passed by Congress. There is nothing “tongue-in-cheek” about that.

            The issue isn’t about prevention, its paying for your own sex life. Again, you complain that the right is jealous of your sex life, and then you want to send them the bill, to boot. Pay for your own sex life and I’ll pay for my own sex life.

          • expect_resistance

            Once again, Viagra is not a preventative drug.

            “Not all drugs available in the United States are covered by Part D. The most notable exclusion is the class of anti-anxiety medications known as benzodiazepines: Valium (diazepam) and Ativan (lorazepam), to name two. Drugs used for purely cosmetic purposes, as well as ED remedies such as Viagra and Cialis, are also excluded. Finally, some plans refuse to cover drugs on the basis of prohibitive cost or lack of a rebate from the manufacturer.” (LA Times 3/15/11)

            I’m not on Medicare so I’m not well versed at what they cover. Most health insurance plans offer drug coverage for Viagra. I know mine does. If I was on Medicare my anti-anxiety medication wouldn’t be covered either.

            As far as the “Tongue-in-Cheek” legislation I was refereeing to Nina Turner’s “Viagra Bill” to counter contraception legislation.

            “As a member of a heavily male- and GOP-dominated state Senate since 2008, Ohio legislator Nina Turner says she has cringed watching her colleagues pass bill after bill to regulate women’s reproductive health. Now, the Democrat has become the latest in a series of female state legislators to give her male colleagues a taste of their own medicine by introducing a bill that limits men’s ability to get a Viagra prescription without meeting certain government conditions.

            “We should show the same attention and love to men’s reproductive health as we do to women’s,” Turner told HuffPost. “And my bill does that.”

            Specifically, Turner’s bill would require men to receive psychological counseling to verify that they have a medical reason for taking erectile dysfunction medications, such as Viagra, before they can legally obtain a prescription for it. It would also require doctors to inform men, in writing, about the potential risks of drugs like Viagra.

            The bill borrows language directly from Ohio’s controversial “heartbeat bill,” which bans abortions after the fetal heartbeat can be detected — often before a woman even knows she’s pregnant. But Turner said her bill is not just an answer to the heartbeat bill; she has been outraged by number of bills and amendments over the past couple of years, including one recently proposed to ban physician assistants from placing or removing intrauterine devices (known as IUDs), a common form of birth control, based on the Republican sponsor’s moral opposition to that method of contraception.”

          • dirkjohanson

            Why are we off on a tangent about prevention? Normal, competent adults do their own prevention, whether it be with respect to health, fixing the roof of their home, or changing the oil in their car. Insurance, including health insurance, is to reimburse people for expensive losses beyond their control.

          • HeilMary1

            Do you oppose publicly funded vaccines for deadly epidemics? Epidemics, STDs and unwanted pregnancies are public health threats.

          • dirkjohanson

            I absolutely support some such funding for the poor if they cannot afford the vaccine and at risk for the deadly epidemic.

          • HeilMary1

            Playboy mother killer, you twist everything ass backwards to defend your moral bankruptcy. You know women are only asking for parity, but cheapskate pervert you want us to remain underpaid and short-lived incubating slaves so you can molest our underage daughters in exchange for fries. Why don’t you move to pedophile haven Manila where contraception is banned? (Hopefully, outraged homeless parents will beat you up.)

        • colleen2

          “Men haven’t rallied to pass a law that says that Viagra has to be
          covered by insurance, and that the cost has to be shifted onto members
          of the opposite sex.”

          LOL! Only because y’all haven’t had to.

        • Jennifer Starr

          In most cases viagra is covered by insurance.

          • five_by_five

            In most cases the pill is covered by insurance.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And?

          • five_by_five

            Just replying to your temper tantrum about Viagra…..

          • Jennifer Starr

            And yet you still fail to make any actual sense. If in most cases the pill was actually covered by insurance, we wouldn’t even be here, listening to people whining about their so-called ‘religious freedoms’ being infringed. Please grow up and actually learn something before commenting.

    • Amanda Marcotte

      There is no direct relationship between the cost of someone’s birth control prescription and how much sex she’s having. So the notion that you have to pay “more” so they can have more sex is simply false. I take 28 pills a cycle whether I’m having sex every day or barely at all.

      The hyper-focus on the amount of sex women are supposedly having really shows, however, that the anti-contraception arguments are about provoking conservative male anger and resentment about women being free to control their own sex lives. As you state, you, uh, love sex. No one doubts that. We also get that’s part of the reason it’s easy to make you resent people that you clearly think are getting to have more sex than you do, and provoking your desire to punish them by withholding basic medical care they have already paid for when they paid their insurance premiums.

      • HeilMary1

        Notice how these whiny cheapskate sl*t shamers have no problem with billionaire Rush Limbaugh not paying for his own Viagra for his extramarital sex tourism?

        • expect_resistance

          Rush is clueless about birth control. Remember when he was shaming Sandra Fluke and he said something like “You could try not to have SO much sex.” I think he thought you take a birth control pill every time you have sex. Notice how they never whine about their precious Viagra.

          • HeilMary1

            BC pills don’t work the same way as pick and choose to play Viagra. I noticed that if I didn’t take Ortho-tri cyclen at the same time every day, my acne would immediately worsen.

      • You’re nothing but trash, Marcotte, you and that skag Plimpton. I don’t know what you’re so worried about.. you couldn’t get laid in a morgue.

        • Defamate

          you couldn’t get laid in a morgue.

          I assume you can?

          • BJ Survivor

            you couldn’t get laid in a morgue.

            Who would want to? How disgusting.

            Gotta hand it to forced-birthers: their lurid fantasies are exceedingly vile. This is up there with the embryos/fetuses “torn limb-from-limb,” “stabbed in the head with scissors,” “burned with saline” crap they spew when they describe what they think they know about abortion procedures. They really are a bunch of sick fucks.

          • Defamate

            Speaking of which, I have decided to start asking them if they would still oppose abortion if every abortion was performed by c-section.

        • HeilMary1

          Pedophile priest, no woman owes you the shredding of her lady parts just so you will have fresh victims. You burn in hell, mother killer.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Goodness, you really need to grow up. Not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, though.

          • fiona64

            It is a splendid example of the erudition I’ve come to expect from the average anti-choicer, though …

    • Rianya

      You know what really doesn’t help? People like you who spout of inanities that have no relationship to actual facts.

    • CJ99

      Dear moron, people pay for their own health insurance not you. Kindly piss off.

      • dirkjohanson

        Relatively few people pay for their own health insurance, Einstein, and thanks to Obamacare, womens’ healthcare costs are subsidized by men. I know how few, since I was one of them who had my individual policy canceled, and Obama was very quick to tell the nation how few of us their are.

        The cost of the sexual goodies women seek to have others pay for are shifted onto employers, shifted onto men through gender rating, and shifted onto women who are not sexually active.

        • Defamate

          Then perhaps women shouldn’t have to pay for your prostate exams.

          • dirkjohanson

            Women are net beneficiaries under Obamacare, since gender rating was eliminated, so they do not pay for prostate exams, or any other mens health care, for that matter. Anyway, a prostate exam is like a mammogram; birth control pills are about voluntary leisure time activity.

          • Defamate

            How about the women who have endometrisos? My boyfriend’s little sister started getting hot flashes at 14 and she suffers from so many hormonal swings that it severely fucks up her life.

          • dirkjohanson

            Endometriosis should be covered by health insurance.

          • Ella Warnock

            Why? Nobody ever died from not being able to get pregnant. Adopt or resign to live a childless life. Move on. The world isn’t going to stop for any of us.

          • Defamate

            You sure about that? PJ is making the argument over on LAN that fetii actually help their ‘host’ because they can:

            1) cure cancer (daily mail link)

            2) oxygenate the woman’s blood when she is asphyxiate (wot? then why didn’t Marlise Munoz’s fetus save her life??)

            3) cure diabetes – dogs with their pancreas removed died after pregnancy because the fetal pancreas kept diabetes at bay

            4) women’s nutrition is improved during pregnancy and all physical ailments and auto immune diseases disappear (leaves out the fact that they come back with a vengeance after birth)

            Don’t you just love pseudo-science?

          • Ella Warnock

            Exactly. If they’re such an all-healing miracle, then Marlise Munoz should be all set, right? Oh, no, wait . . . she’s dead, directly because of her second pregnancy.

            Auto-immune diseases do not always disappear, and often get worse during pregnancy because your body is so busy diverting most of your resources to building a fetus that your immune system falters significantly. I’m not doing all her homework for her, and she can google it herself.

          • Defamate

            In diabetes in the mother, the pancreas of the fetus is able to compensate for her own lack of pancreatin.

            During asphyxia of the mother, the fetus sends oxygen to the maternal blood.

            ————-

            Well it should have saved her then!! And why do women develop gestational diabetes if fetii cure it???

            I also looked at a few of her other posts – she outright plagiarizes. I found most of her stuff from a Christian discussion forum on abortion lulz. This explains why she would always accuse me of plagiarism, doesn’t it? Guilty conscience.

          • Ella Warnock

            Projection, thy name is PJ!

          • Ella Warnock

            I wonder why she doesn’t realize that she lost any shred of credibility she might have had when she went off the reservation describing her “perfect” life? Does she really think anyone believed any of that shit? She’s just embarrassing herself at this point. And who would care enough about anything she had to say to “stalk” her?

          • Ella Warnock

            And she never seems to mention her “perfect” children and husband anymore, does she? Why, it’s **almost** as if they never existed at all!

          • Defamate

            She has mentioned her kids, and how she enjoyed the 3 transvaginal ultrasounds she got, but that’s about it.

          • Ella Warnock

            Enjoyed them, huh? Riiiight. Idiot.

          • Defamate

            Edited: I misremembered

          • goatini

            “birth control pills are about voluntary leisure time activity”

            And so is pregnancy “voluntary leisure time activity”?

            Is childbirth “voluntary leisure time activity”?

            Is pediatric health coverage for one’s children “voluntary leisure time activity”?

            Highly effective medically prescribed contraception is about preventative health care – preventing (if one so desires) a highly risky and dangerous health condition that can prevent one from carrying on with regular daily activities.

          • dirkjohanson

            your jargon doesn’t impress me; buy your own birth control pills and pay for your own pregnancy. Neither is what insurance is there for. Insurance is a risk-spreading mechanism for potentially catastrophic events. If there are health care complications from a pregnancy, those should be covered; a regular pregnancy one chooses to have should not be covered as a matter of law.

            Some pregnancies are high risk, but pregnancy is not a highly risky and dangerous health condition. In fact, its no more of a “health” condition than being hungry or needing to take a dump.

          • goatini

            So you don’t think health insurance should pay for pregnancy or childbirth either?

          • dirkjohanson

            In theory, if someone wants insurance for pregnancy and childbirth and a company wants to sell that to them, they should be free to enter into that deal. It shouldn’t be mandated by law.

            Its also not an appropriate use of insurance. Insurance is supposed to be for events out of the control of the person claiming the loss, such as a house burning down, hurricanes, earthquakes, significant car accidents, and such, and health conditions that no sane person would want to have occur to them, such as cancer, heart conditions, and the like.

          • HeilMary1

            Childbirth made my best friend’s ENTIRE FACE ROT OFF BEFORE KILLING HER WITH LETHAL CANCER, you lying misogynist mother killer! You misogynist creeps are happy to shred your mothers’ vaginas and ruin their marriages, then whine when they need insurance to cover vaginal mesh implants to stop urinary and fecal incontinence caused by your hateful, ungrateful watermelon-sized, male supremacist skull!

            Because YOUR BIRTH wrecked your mother’s lady parts, YOU OWE humanity insurance risk coverage for DEADLY RUINOUS CHILDBIRTH.

          • HeilMary1

            So you want the human race to die out? — because NO ONE can afford $20,000 to $5,000,000 childbirths! Childbirth causes bladder and bowel incontinence in 50% of mothers as they age, not to mention bankrupting cancers, multiple organ failures and autoimmune diseases, you insulting misogynist cheapskate.

          • dirkjohanson

            If you can’t afford a $20,000 childbirth, you can’t afford a $400,000 child, so don’t have one or have one with someone who can. Most women I know of childbearing age have blown more than $20K on handbags and such.

            As I said above, complications should be covered.

          • HeilMary1

            Dummy, women depend on affordable bc to avoid $20K deliveries in the first place, and I don’t know any woman who can afford a $20K handbag on an annual $20K salary! The whole point of affordable bc is to save $20K annual salary women from childbirth death, bankruptcy and homelessness. Do you think only rich women should be allowed to have sex? Here’s a hint: Most hot-looking women don’t start out wealthy.

          • dirkjohanson

            Birth control is like $9 a month at Target. Free condoms are even less and available in all sorts of places. Credit cards have allowed many women to spend $20K on handbags even though they have only a $20K salary.

          • Defamate

            the 9$ stuff won’t work for everyone

            some women have terrible reactions to some pills

            some women are allergic to latex

            for some women, only an IUD will work

            etc.

            etc.

          • HeilMary1

            $9 BC pills are only available through insurance CO-PAYS, otherwise they cost $50-100 per month on top of $500 ob/gyn visits to get the prescriptions. BC pills aren’t over the counter in the U.S. And the RCC hasn’t given up on banning condoms. And condoms don’t treat hormonal acne.

          • dirkjohanson

            Your numbers are blatantly inflated.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, your faux reality is way off and you won’t admit it because your paid trolling might win you a pedophile sex tour in contraception-banned Manila.

          • BJ Survivor

            Some pregnancies are high risk, but pregnancy is not a highly risky and
            dangerous health condition. In fact, its no more of a “health”
            condition than being hungry or needing to take a dump.
            You are woefully misinformed. Pregnancy is not a state of wellness.This is why prenatal care, administered by health professionals, is a preventive care measure that has been emphatically proven to result in healthier pregnancies and healthier babies. Even the most uneventful pregnancy can go horribly wrong during labor, resulting in debility, permanent harm, and even death of the woman and neonate.

          • HeilMary1

            My BC pills controlled my job-ruining acne, but your Viagra is purely for SEXUAL SIN THAT RESULTS IN ABORTIONS.

          • dirkjohanson

            I don’t object to insurance covering medicine for acne. Sex actually helps with acne, too, but I don’t expect insurance to pay someone to have it.

            And I DON’T take Viagra, thank you. I much prefer Levitra and Cialis :) And none of them are covered by, or required by law to be covered by, my insurance.

          • HeilMary1

            So you want to keep sex deadly and bankrupting for non-wealthy married couples just to fatten the wallets of insurance CEOs and to keep pedophile priests supplied with unlimited fresh children? Are you so stupid that you don’t get it that insurance companies are happy to pay pennies on their end to cover family planning because those pennies avoid multi-million dollar disaster childbirths and birth defects just a few months down the road? Are you that stupid and selfish?

          • dirkjohanson

            If insurance companies are so happy to cover birth control pills, there would not have had to be a law requiring them to cover it.

          • HeilMary1

            The GOP-RCC is trying to prevent all insurance companies from covering any bc for any women.

        • goatini

          Health insurance through one’s employer is part of one’s fully overheaded compensation – WE pay for it as part of our salaries and benefits.

    • fiona64

      Of course you do, sweetie. ::pats head::

      • Defamate

        Calvin got his ass handed to him:P

        For that, I am pleased:)

        • expect_resistance

          That’s awesome!
          Calvin is obnoxious.

      • dirkjohanson

        google me, baby, and weep as you wish you had my sex life.

        • HeilMary1

          You’re a homely pedophile sex tourist who will soon be arrested in a third world nation!

          • HeilMary1

            For Defamate whose expose on dirk was deleted:
            He’s a disgusting sex offender psychopath!

          • colleen2

            Ah, well I expect that many of the men in the MRM are on the sex offender list.

        • expect_resistance

          With yourself or some else?

          • dirkjohanson

            both, natch

        • Jennifer Starr

          Leisure Suit Larry–kind of sad.

        • MissNormaDesmond

          Yes, you’re cutting a wide swathe through the ladies of the world, and in the few spare moments you have in which you’re not having teh hott hott sexxx, you troll reproductive health advocacy websites.

        • fiona64

          I’m sorry to disappoint you, sweetie, but I’m only interested in men.

  • normajeana

    Hopefully, in your pro choice stance, you also allow the right of adult women to choose to engage in sex work and not just ‘choice’ to have an abortion. Because the same statistical distortions and outright fabrications are promoted by the rad fems when it comes to sex work… and ought to be as scorned and ridiculed as the fabrications postulated by the ‘family research’ folks. I’ve known as many irrational feminists who tout a woman’s right to choice only as long as it is to make a choice for approved sexual activities as I’ve known irrational religious folks who are anti-sex outside of marriage. Either group desires to control what I do with my body and I find it obnoxious for anyone to tell me that ‘prostitution is like rape’ and that ALL sex workers are ‘prostituted women’ and suffer from a false consciousness if we don’t bow down and accept their decree of our inability to know we are being exploited and treated as sex objects.

    • Rianya

      It would be far more sensible to legalize prostitution and criminalize trafficking, exploitation and coercion — and, of course, prosecute and punish those crimes. I don’t understand why we as a society think it is our business in what way an individual choses to sell their body. Sell in scrubbing toilets or sell in giving pleasure to others — what business is it of mine?

      • Mindy McIndy

        I remember hearing before that sex work is the only truly honest business transaction around. If it were legal and women and men weren’t under the thumb of pimps, but rather independent contractors or working in a brothel, it would be much better. And if you cracked down on trafficking and coercion, you would also cut down on the underage prostitutes. It is a win win for everybody.

    • sex ‘work’ ? LOL If you find it’s work you’re doing it wrong.

      • Defamate

        Clever!

    • expect_resistance

      I believe “choice” goes beyond abortion. It speaks to reproductive freedom, sexual freedom, and bodily autonomy. Prostitution/sex work should not be criminalized. There’s a wide range of feminist viewpoints about sex work, it’s complicated. I certainly don’t have the answers other than to listen to women trust what they’re saying about their experiences.

      • normajeana

        Having been a sex worker rights activist (and retired sex worker) for the past 32 years, I am all too familiar with the wide ranging viewpoints of feminists and religious conservatives about sex work. We have been fighting for decriminalization and recognition that providing pleasure to others is a viable profession for many of us, and for those not as fortunately to find the work to their liking, it is still a job which provides income when jobs in other areas are scarce and the economy has tanked.

        I also spent 10 long, miserable years prior to becoming a sex worker, working in the most horrible job ever- working for the Los Angeles Police Department in the 1970s and early 1980s before women were hired as police officers. I was assigned to the night watch, in a patrol car, without a gun or a partner, as a sort of guinea pig to see if women could survive the dangerous conditions of ‘street work.’ Never once did anyone try to ‘rescue’ me or dissuade me from working in THAT very dangerous male enclave where sexual harassment was considered part of the job if women wanted to work in a man’s profession.

        Of course, at the time, religious conservatives did not think much of women having a job at all, much less working in that dangerous profession. Still, they did not attempt to stop women from taking such work. Fortunately, after ten years, I decided I could no longer take the rampant corruption and made a career move WAY up… I decided if I was going to ‘screw the public’ I might as well get the going rate…

    • badphairy

      I have yet to meet a “rad fem” and associate that type of discourse with MRAers.

      Caveat: and yet I seem to have a B.A. in Women’s Studies. I guess those “radfems” aren’t all that thick on the ground.

      I’m not a huge fan of sex work in the context of today’s U.S society. It’s too dominated by drugs, pimps, and coercion of minors, often from Eastern Europe. Are there contexts where I would be okay with sex work being legal? Yes. Do we live in those contexts yet in the U.S.? Imho, no.

      • BJ Survivor

        But its being illegal doesn’t stop it from happening and being a horrid exploitation at worst and something with a very high risk of arrest at best. Even the legal brothels aren’t exactly paeans of non-exploitations and excellent working conditions, though they are much safer for the women in terms of safety from STIs and violence. In our current society, prostitution is a legitimate need and, IMO, the workers should be provided with protections and safety standards, as well as the ability to earn pensions.

        • badphairy

          It being legal doesn’t stop it from being abusive either. Like I said, in the best of all possible worlds, legal prostitution would be a good thing. Sadly, we don’t live in the best of all possible worlds.

    • BJ Survivor

      I could not agree more! I want sex workers, like all workers, to not be exploited and abused. I want them to have safety standards and healthcare and retirement and decent working conditions.

      I read a study about legalized prostitution that showed that in terms of STI transmission, legal brothels were top-notch in safety for the workers and the clients. That’s a great thing. What was missing was a study of how the sex workers themselves fare in terms of financial security. At least in Nevada, prostitutes are independent contractors, so they have to pay a large percentage of the income they generate for their room and board, but they are pretty much prisoners of the house in which they’re working, which to me defies the whole concept of independent contractor. To me, they should have the option of being employees with health and retirement benefits and with reasonable hours, rather than being expected to be available 24/7 while they are in house.

      I, not being a sex worker, have zero clue how this would best be accomplished. How would those who do the work think it could operate more fairly and efficiently?

      • Timothy Griffy

        Look to the European countries where prostitution is legal and see if what they do makes the work more fair and efficient.

  • Defamate

    I remember being involved in a looong discussion about abortion on The Friendly Atheist, and at the end, the anti-choicer said this: “I am sure it must bug everyone, even pro-choicers, that women go out there and have lots of sex and then kill their unborn babies. Such a needless waste of life!”

    He also offered a rape exception. He denied that the rape exception was an example of how his opposition to abortion was grounded in s1ut-shaming, and just said some bullshit about how he ‘really just wants the best moral outcome for all.’

    Well, if you really want the best moral outcome, AND you truly believe that abortion is murder, why 1) care about what the s1uts are doing at all 2) offer a rape exception??

    • badphairy

      I bet they wouldn’t be so concerned about a baby’s right to life if we could test infants for ‘the gay’ at birth.

      Which, incidentally, is the premise of a pretty good film called “Twilight of the Golds” starring Brendan Fraser as *gasp* a GAY man!

  • John1966

    You liberals will embrace any absurdity to feed your contempt of those you disagree with. Go ahead and be misguided. Go ahead and find demons where none exist. Go ahead and foam at the mouth. Go ahead and ignore the obvious. Go ahead and pretend your kindergarten fears are rational. Go ahead and make fools of yourselves. You’re contempt and absurdity are marginalizing you, and that can only be a good thing.

    • Defamate

      Did you have a point to make? Cuz you’re not making one…

    • CJ99

      then please feel free to stop being an abusive shithead. While your at it get your nose out of everyones undies.

    • Law

      1. It’s not simply a case of disagreement. It’s a case of conservatives being batshit crazy.

      2. It’s not that Amanda Marcotte and those who agree with her are “misguided” I daresay anyone who has to resort to using arguments based on religion who have steered themselves in the wrong direction.

      3. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, now is it. Feel free to peruse the website of any major pro-life group of any influence or consequence, their views on birth control are no secret.

      4. Speaking of marginalization, it’s no cowinkydink that the same conservatives whose votes are largely about fetuses are also the same ones talking about secession. Or perhaps you slept through the entire month of November 2012?

      • HeilMary1

        They also get arrested or outed for their own sex scandals.

    • sophie

      “You’re contempt and absurdity are marginalizing you, and that can only be a good thing.”
      Your obvious lack of intelligence is marginalizing you. But, go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

    • Defamate

      …k

    • Jennifer Starr

      Your

    • Ella Warnock

      Such sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  • marion vega

    no. you’re pro-abortion. if you were pro-choice you would be pro-birth control & pro-adoption. FYI i’m pro-responsibility & choice.

    commence extreme left moon howling:…

    • Mindy McIndy

      I am pro choice in that I want a woman to have a right to choose. Choosing to have an abortion IS taking responsibility. What about that do you not get? The vast, vast majority of women don’t use abortion as their main method of birth control. This isn’t Russia, doll.

      • marion vega

        why does your ‘choice’ encompass only 1 choice? marion is a unisex name

        • Defamate

          Re-read what she wrote.

          “”I am pro choice in that I want a woman to have a right to choose.””

          RIGHT TO CHOOSE (either birth or abortion, that’s the subtext)

          Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it sweetie?

          • marion vega

            neither is yours then. comprehend where i said pro-choice? & if you believed in adoption why spend all your time talking about abortion? where’s the other choices?

          • Defamate

            There are plenty of articles on this site about adoption and child-rearing. Why don’t you look around before jumping to conclusions and looking like a goddamn idiot?

          • marion vega

            how civil. you could run for office. as a democrat only of course. only then are you allowed to hate

          • Defamate

            lrn2rd

          • colleen2

            You come here. Spout hateful bullshit and deliberate insults and then complain when someone isn’t polite enough? Republican women are such trash.

          • marion vega

            what’s hateful about being pro-choice & pro-responsibility, where’s the republican & the 1st & 2nd insult was Defamate then you…

          • goatini

            Nothing hateful about being pro-choice and pro-responsibility, because obtaining a safe, legal pregnancy termination is acting responsibly.

            But someone is being hateful about the very responsible action of obtaining a safe, legal pregnancy termination.

          • marion vega

            read the timeline. who’s hateful? who insulted…don’t answer it was rhetorical & the time lines are expanding beyond my screen

          • goatini

            Um, I read the timeline. Someone keeps arguing that only the “choice” of being exploited as a public baby oven is the “responsible” choice.

          • marion vega

            responsible in using birth control. i’m not going to spell everything out for you

          • goatini

            Oh, but we have to spell out for you that NO form of BC is 100% effective?

          • marion vega

            then be responsible enough to get an abortion quick. not after 3 or 4 missed periods. my sisters peed on sticks before they even missed 1. although they wanted it to be +ve

          • goatini

            If you got your head up out of the forced-birth blogosphere, and into actual reality, you never would have posted such nonsense.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I feel sorry for anyone who’s related to you by blood.

          • marion vega

            then be responsible enough to get one early so the pro-abortionists have to squeal on TV for your right to terminate a viable baby

          • HeilMary1

            But your antis oppose ALL early abortions and morning-after pills, and also oppose ALL contraception, chemical and barrier.

          • marion vega

            then be responsible enough to get one early so the pro-abortionists have
            to squeal on TV for your right to terminate a viable baby

          • goatini

            But there are no “babies” involved in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. All babies, ever, have already been born.

          • pregnancy termination is a dead baby

          • Defamate

            citation needed

          • marion vega

            write a new dead baby joke then

          • What do you think is funny about dead babies?

          • Defamate

            EVERYTHING

          • marion vega

            yo mama

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think it’s hilarious how afraid you are to use your actual handle.

          • goatini

            No babies are ever harmed in any way, or involved in any way whatsoever, in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. All babies, ever, have already been born.

          • JT Rager

            If the right to choose the adoption was under threat I would fight against the anti-adoption side. But it currently isn’t.

        • Mindy McIndy

          I called you “doll”. Since when is that gender specific? I support someone choosing abortion, adoption, or raising their offspring themselves. It is THEIR choice, not mine or yours.

    • Defamate

      Anti choice = forcing women to give birth
      Anti choice = forcing women to abort

      Pro choice = letting women make their own reproductive decisions

      I am sorry that this is too hard for teeny tiny brain to comprehend.

      • marion vega

        your tiny brain missed the part where i said i’m pro-responsibility and pro-choice. don’t drool to much when you howl

        • Defamate

          Abortion IS responsiblity just not the kind of responsibilty you think women should choose.

          And fyi, cupcake, all known forms of contraception have known failure rates. Including tubal ligation and vasectomy.

          The responsible thing to do, if you cannot afford to raise another child, or if it is the wrong time to raise a child, is to have an abortion, the earlier the better, when it has no brain or nervous system.

        • goatini

          We are pro-responsibility. Obtaining a safe, legal pregnancy termination is responsible behavior.

    • JT Rager

      Pro choice encompasses all of those. If a woman chooses any of those I support her right to have that choice.

      • marion vega

        that’s what i’m trying to say. the choice from all options

        • JT Rager

          Then don’t make the claim that people are pro-abortion. They are pro-choice. They aren’t anti-adoption. But abortion is a choice that is being threatened, which is why it’s not being fought for so much. Adoption isn’t being threatened. Which is why this article doesn’t discuss it.

      • expect_resistance

        Choice is a full range of options. The antis think we think because we are pro-choice, we think all pregnant women should have an abortion. Simply not true. If a woman wants to carry a pregnancy to term, that’s her choice. That should be supported as well as having an abortion and ending a pregnancy. We need to respect choice in all ranges of the reproductive spectrum.

        • Mandy

          Exactly. Abortion is being talked about because that is the choice that has been under attack and the ability to choose that option is being chipped away at. No one is proposing laws that make it harder for women to adopt, no laws are making it harder for women to choose to go through a pregnancy and have a kid. If they were we’d step up and fight for those options too! But only the option to have an abortion is under attack and so we continue to talk about it and fight for the right to choose.

      • Defamate
        • JT Rager

          I can’t say I’m surprised. Either way, I enjoy arguing with people over the internet. It allows me to reconsider my beliefs and make sure they are logically sound. Thus far this person has given me nothing that has made me rethink my position at all. As far as I can tell, her definition of “troll” is someone who disagrees with them.

          • Defamate

            Yep. That is their MO. They take the moral highground, but they pranked us tonight by posting this link to Twitchy and harassing us under sockpuppet accounts:P

          • JT Rager

            They also have a comment that insists that we are part of an echo chamber. As if the only arguments we are considering are our own. Meanwhile, we are the ones reading articles and commenting on an anti-choice sites and listening to their arguments.

            I read blogs from multiple religious channels on Patheos, most of them contradicting each other. I couldn’t possibly be living in an echo chamber.

          • Defamate

            Me too. I post at some of the atheist blogs – and there is quite a bit of disagreement. LAN, along with Secular Pro-life, couldn’t take up the challenge set by Bob at Cross Examined to debate abortion. Only *one* person showed up from LAN, and that was to tell Bob that he was an idiot.

          • Defamate

            Read this..

            http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020126shelton.orthotrophy/020126.ch36.htm

            1) benefits are temporary at best

            2) many times the costs do not outweigh the benefits, which are limited

            3) immune system can cause disease to go into remission during pregnancy – and it can also cause them to flare up worse and to come into existence after pregnancy

            4) people have had parasites transplanted into their intestines to control certain auto-immune diseases – therefore, parasites are GOOD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_parasitic_worms_on_the_immune_system

            5) if pregnancy was so great, why don’t pregnant women have longer lifespans than nuns, who are celibate? why aren’t pregnant women as a whole healthier than nuns?

            6) the fetus has to keep the woman alive for it’s own benefit – maternal fetal conflict, but it doesn’t mean that it won’t suck her dry for it’s own benefit

            7) pregnancy can cause diabetes and make some diabetes health problems worse.

            8) most of her examples are freak occurrences – is it good to get shot because the doctors find a tumour when they open you up?

            You will know what I am talking about when you see it. Basically, she’s full of shit. Temporary benefits at best. And for every ‘omg pregnancy cured cancer’ there is another case where it caused it. So they cancel each other out, in the end.

            It’s not a biological parasite. But it is a functional parasite. And it hurts the host more than it benefits it.

            And if you read most of what PJ4 has written to you in her various points, stuff about voodoo, storks, bodily integrity (you will know it when you see it) you will find out that she has plagiarized most of what she has written to you:

            http://helvidiuspachyderm.wordpress.com/2007/06/19/debunking-the-pro-choice-argument-part-vi/

            http://www.christianforums.com/t7383940-6/

            She is fond of accusing others of plagiarism; now I know why. Guilty conscience!

          • Defamate

            And Griffonn…yeah. His ‘ideas’…not so much. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

    • expect_resistance

      I’d rather be “pro-abortion” than “forced-birth.” I’m hooooowling for reproductive freedom!

      • marion vega

        read the 2nd last sentence. you’re the 4th to ignore it

        • Defamate

          Immaterial if you can’t express yourself properly.

          You say we are pro-abortion.

          You then state that you, unlike us, are pro-choice and pro-birth control and adoption. Along with being ‘responsible’ and in favour of ‘choice;’

          There’s a whole rat’s nest of contradictions in there honey. Think before you write.

          • marion vega

            i’m happy to waste time here, i’m bored. but know you’re arguing semantics with someone who believes in abortion along with other choices.
            not my fault you are so ready to build strawmen to argue with

          • Defamate

            No, it’s not semantics. It’s your inability to craft a coherent sentence.

            Anyways, if you’re bored, ever think of playing a video game? I heard Dwarf Fortress is pretty good!

          • marion vega

            what’s wrong with you saying you’re pro-abortion. are you not? if this hack is changing pro-life to anti-choice then the reverse side is also true.
            unless your waging a propaganda campaign. can’t have your cake & eat it

          • Defamate

            Anti-natalists are pro-abortion, in that they think abortion should be the *only* choice.

            We are, of course, in favour of ALL CHOICES

          • marion vega

            all choices should be talked about by all. only the bible brigade talk about adoption currently

          • goatini

            Plenty of talk about adoption on RHRC. Try the “search” function.

          • Ella Warnock

            What good is cake if you can’t eat it?

          • colleen2

            Please reconsider your decision to stay.we are bored too, Marion.

          • marion vega

            go then

          • colleen2

            I believe that won’t be necessary. You and your Republican cohorts will be gone soon.

          • marion vega

            i’m not republican. i donate NOTHING to politicians, time or money

          • colleen2

            That’s odd. You not only troll with Republicans, you speak to the women here in the same disparaging and degrading manner as a Republican and spout Republican talking points.

          • marion vega

            & you needle share with dems when injecting the koolaid. & this is only 1 of my twitters for which this is it’s function

          • marion vega

            & you needle share when injecting the koolaid

          • colleen2

            At least I’m not a Republican.

          • colleen2

            Did I strike a nerve?

        • expect_resistance

          I didn’t ignore it.

        • goatini

          We read it. Accessing a safe, legal pregnancy termination IS pro-responsibility.

          • marion vega

            therefore pro-abortion. call it what it is. i’m am pro-abortion, pro-responsibility & pro-choice

          • pro-killing babies…yarrrr

          • Defamate

            Those damn baby killin’ pirates!

            Perhaps you should be complaining to Disney Entertainment instead?

          • Do they kill babies?

          • Defamate

            They make documentaries about pirates don’t they? And pirates eat babies (I provided a citation).

            Over a million babies were killed during the making of the Pirates of the Carribean series of documentaries.

          • You’re a stupid slobbering mongrel…MUST KILL BABIES..GRRRRR
            I hate you.

          • Defamate

            You got me.

  • Im_Rick_James

    An amazing leap in fundamental un-truth-ness. Congrats…

    • Defamate

      Please, elaborate.

      • Im_Rick_James

        It has nothing to do with sex. Personally, I’m on the fence on the issue of abortion. My take is that it should be, as they say, “safe, legal, and rare”, and not late-term (say, 20th week). Nobody on the right wants to control womens’ sex lives – at least none that I know, and I know a lot. I think Ms. Marcotte is operating under a false premise, and I further believe she knows it.

        • Defamate

          Do you know WHY women have abortions at 20 weeks? Give me your best guess.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Sex selection, or don’t want the kid.

          • Defamate

            You would be wrong.

            Do you know WHY women have abortions? Then think…why would a woman have an abortion at 20 weeks? Why not 30? Why have an abortion at 6 weeks?

            Put your critical thinking cap on, Ricky.

          • Im_Rick_James

            The only reason I can come up with is health of the mother, in which case, I would support her choice.

          • Defamate

            BTW Rick, I want to thank you for discussing this rationally.

            Women have abortions because they do not want to be pregnant. The earlier the better. There is NO such thing as a safe pregnancy. Every pregnancy is dangerous. Birth itself is traumatic, painful, and can often result in permanent injury or death. 2 women die per day from pregnancy in the USA alone. 300k die worldwide. And there is often NO predicting whether or not a pregnancy will go wrong. After birth the woman could suddenly die from post partum hemorrhage (#1 killer of pregnant women), or develop an auto-immune disease like MS or post parum psychosis or depression. Every abortion IS a health issue.

            A woman isn’t going to wait until 20 weeks or 30 weeks or the day before birth to ‘have the abortion’ if the point is to be rid of the pregnancy. She will want to do it ASAP. The only reasons a woman might have for an abortion at 20 weeks are:

            1) irregular periods – didn’t know she was late – some women can go months without bleeding, then bleed for a month straight

            2) in the case of rape, or other sexual dysfunction, the woman might be in denial

            3) poor + barriers erected by pro-life groups – it can take a woman a long time to save up the 400-800$ for the procedure, get time off work, get babysitters if she already has kids

            4) only 1.5% of abortions take place past 20 weeks. If not for the above reasons, they are most often for medical emergency. If the fetus is suffering from a severe disability – often one that is incompatible with life, such as no brain (anencephaly) it would be cruel to give birth and watch it die. And of course, maternal health.

            91% of abortions are before 13 weeks
            61% are before 9 weeks

            This is what a *typical* abortion looks like at around 8 weeks:

            http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls6w7phG8f1qi68z9.jpg

          • Im_Rick_James

            No prob. There’s plenty I don’t know, especially when it comes to lady business, and I’m always ready to learn something new. The point I wanted to make, really, is the point I started with. I think the idea that this issue is about controlling womens’ sex lives is absurd, and I think it is deliberately hyperbolic. As I said above, on the issue of abortion itself, I’m in the “safe, rare, and legal” camp. The abortion fight is not my fight.

          • Defamate

            Rick: I think that for *some* people it really comes down to sex. It’s not a coincidence that pro-life groups lie and say that Plan B and all forms of contraception ‘kill babies’ (they don’t). They promote abstinence only, which does not work.

            A lot of the extremists don’t just want to control everyone’s sex life – they also want to control religion in government, creationism in schools, and so on.

            But, I do take your point, that for many, there is just a belief that every embryo is a baby (even if they are wrong).

          • Im_Rick_James

            I’m sure there are. But if you talk to more people like me, I think you’ll find that they are a small, albeit very vocal, percentage.

          • Defamate

            Yep..vocal is right. Unfortunately, they have an inordinate amount of influence, especially in red states, because in order for a republican to even get a nomination to run, they have to appeal to the extremist fundies – the churches do *a lot* of on the ground promotion for these guys.

            It’s complicated. But, they are tearing the Republican party apart.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Yes, it is complicated. Let me ask you a question, though. Do you think it’s the Tea Partiers or the Evangelicals that are the problem?

          • Defamate

            The evangelicals, honestly

            There have been some recent studies, and tea partiers actually agree with libs on a lot of issues. We all distrust the big banks, we all oppose corporate corruption etc..

            But, due to this thing called ‘identity politics’ the two shall never meet, at least, not in the near future.

            Also, there is overlap, many tea partiers ARE evangelicals.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Agreed, here, mostly. The only thing I would say is that “some” Tea Partiers are evangelicals, not “many”. Lot of distortions about us flying around both sides of the aisle. At the heart of the Tea Party is Libertarianism: socially liberal, fiscally conservative.

          • BJ Survivor

            Then, pray tell, why was it that when the TP was took the House in 2010 on the basis of job creation, their first order of business was to defund Planned Parenthood? That alone belies your assertion that the TP is not primarily composed of relligious zealots.

          • HeilMary1

            I used to agree with the early Tea Party that simply opposed war and Wall Street, but it quickly got taken over by the Koch brothers and sex-hating fetal idolaters. I’ve been arguing these issues with my next door neighbor / widow whose adult Tea Party son just died from lack of affordable health care for disabled diabetics.

          • Defamate

            Oh, I know. Astro-turf has been a HUGE part of it. Btw, you know what’s funny? Notice how everyone pronounces it ‘koke’ brothers. Nah. It’s pronounced kock:P

          • Im_Rick_James

            A lot less than you think, actually. Guys (and gals) like me were reading Friedman and Hayek and Mises and Rothbard a long time before the Tea Party came into existence. Don’t believe everything you’ve read, either. The Koch brothers are just a convenient boogeyman for the left.

          • goatini

            I see that it has never occurred to you that we have read Friedman (M, not T), Hayek, Mises and Rothbard, and we disagree with their opinions. I also see that it has never occurred to you that we’re well aware of the ideological split of Murray and the Koches.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Yeah, and I’ve read Marx, Galbraith, and Krugman. So?

          • goatini

            For starters, Galbraith and Krugman aren’t Marxists.

          • Im_Rick_James

            They were, in terms of Galbraith, and are, in terms of Krugman, interventionist statists, so they are close enough.

          • goatini

            Only to a proponent of The Shock Doctrine.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Really? Naomi Klein? C’mon, you can do better than that.

          • goatini

            Llewellyn Rockwell doesn’t like Ms Klein either. No surprises there.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Uh, so?

          • goatini

            Funny how you get all terse and monosyllabic, when it becomes clear that your condescending mansplaining on the Austrian and Chicago Schools wasn’t new news to us.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Actually, it means I have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • colleen2

            The problem is the religious right and the Republican party. . The ‘tea party’ was corporate astroturf, just another rebranding of the trailer trash that now forms the Republican party base.

          • Im_Rick_James

            I’m sorry, but you’re mistaken, for the most part. The religious right is definitely your problem when it comes to the issue of abortion. The Tea Party is not. And the Tea Party is anything but “corporate astroturf”; many of us are highly educated and successful, not trailer trash. Believe me, if we wanted to be corporatists, we’d either be RINOs or Dems. We are neither.

          • HeilMary1

            My Catholic TP neighbor and her late son fumed about “single welfare mothers who won’t keep their legs together”, never mind RCC-GOP sex scandals. The son performed UNPAID consulting work for WELFARE FOSTER QUEEN Michele Bachman, whose fraudulent self-certified husband collected $4,000 per month per foster girl for his bible babbling “therapy”! I told my neighbors that the Catholic bishops would rather he die of untreated diabetes than for any woman anywhere to be merely sitting in the same room with a packet of BC pills.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Congratulations. You met two people who, according to you, were Tea Partiers, and also happened to be practicing Catholics. Surely that means the rest of us are all the same, amirite?

          • HeilMary1

            Actually, because they suffered a string of tragedies, they stopped practicing religion, but they kept their Fox News talking points.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Ms. Mary, respectfully, I think you are making a lot of assumptions here.

          • HeilMary1

            I asked them and they told me. Do you think they were lying? They stopped going to church, but they quoted Fox in condemning “killer” Obamacare which expanded to include the son in Medicaid. Instead of believing the obvious that Democratic Maryland Gov. O’Malley was extending a lifeline to the unemployed disabled son, they clung to Fox hatemongering instead.

          • HeilMary1

            Back when my home internet worked, I used to listen to the Tea Party’s Alex Jones and friends because they were blessedly anti-war and anti-Bush, but they soon started foaming 24/7 about abortion.

          • colleen2

            I’m sorry but I don’t listen to political ‘analysis’ from Republicans. I rest content with the knowledge that the TP is no longer politically relavant because most people are embarrassed to be associated with it. WE watch your politicians, we listen to what they say and do. They are fucking disgusting.

          • fiona64

            And the Tea Party is anything but “corporate astroturf”;

            Um, it’s nothing *but* corporate astroturf. Just two of the numerous articles out there:

            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html?_r=0
            http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/01/04/exclusive-dick-armey-dishes-on-freedomworks-dea/192036

          • goatini

            Correct. The entire TP “movement” was Astroturf, famously ginned up by Rick Santelli, aided and abetted by the Kochs.

          • HeilMary1

            I blame the pedophile priest-serving Vatican that has hijacked other moderate religions.

          • Im_Rick_James

            What religions have they hijacked? They have their beliefs, and under the current Pope are probably more “tolerant” than they have ever been.

          • HeilMary1

            They’ve hijacked all the other Christian religions that make up the GOP. Francis may sound softer, but he hasn’t changed anything yet.

          • goatini

            Wrong. Bergoglio still adheres to the RCC gender apartheid.

          • Im_Rick_James

            What is RCC gender apartheid?

          • Defamate

            Strict gender roles, biblical style.

          • HeilMary1

            Even if the results are deadly for women.

          • goatini

            The fact that Catholic females are not fully promotable in the Vatican corporation; the fact that Catholic hospitals have misogynist discriminatory practices encoded into their regulations; shall I go on?

          • fiona64

            I really do appreciate your civility as well. Here’s the thing … until you’ve been around for long enough to have seen the “if you don’t want a baby, keep your legs shut” anti-choice argument over and over and over and over … it’s easy to pretend it isn’t about controlling women’s sex lives. Except that it really, really is.

          • Im_Rick_James

            For some, sure, no doubt. Not anyone I know, however.

          • fiona64

            Of course. It’s never any one an anti-choice person knows (and I’m not saying you are anti-choice, please understand that), or it’s a “lone wolf” who doesn’t represent the group.

            The reason I find this assertion comical is that those “lone wolves” represent the vast majority of the anti-choice movement.

          • HeilMary1

            My sex-hating mom disfigured me as her permanent abstinence excuse and she and my family viciously thwarted my attempts to get plastic surgery because they wanted me to die an ugly hated old spinster. Mom actually bragged that I might be “lucky like her and marry a man who hates sex!” — never mind that dad was getting sex from a hot hooker in my sister’s Catholic high school! My family pompously informed me over and over that not didn’t I deserve to look human like everyone else, but also that I didn’t deserve a love life like everyone else!

          • How do your personal problems and/or mental disorders have anything to do with killing babies?

          • Defamate

            Zygotes, embryos and fetii are not babies.

          • You can ask for clarification on that when you get to hell.

          • Defamate

            Well, until you can up your game, I already feel as if I am in hell.

            What gives?

          • goatini

            Science has already clarified that zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses are NOT “babies”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            As long as I don’t see you there, I’ll have a nice time.

          • colleen2

            oh FEEL the Christian love. smug little passive aggressive ‘Guest’ gets to go to Heaven and we don’t because we don’t believe what ‘Guest’ believes’
            what a compelling argument.

          • BJ Survivor

            Right? If heaven is going to be filled with sanctimonious assholes like Guest, then I’d rather go to hell. Where the party’s going to be: Jimmie Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Aldous Huxley, Margaret Sanger, Virgina Wolf…WAY better than an eternity of sucking up to that sadistic psychopath Yahweh.

          • HeilMary1

            I’m not mentally disordered, but you clearly are to not know the difference between the criminal physical and emotional abuse anti-abortion, anti-sex relatives inflicted on me AFTER I was born, and the self-defending abortions women need.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Disfigured? You mean physically disfigured?

          • HeilMary1

            Yes.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Fuck. I’m so sorry for that.

          • HeilMary1

            ALL abortions are for women’s health.

          • five_by_five

            Well, based on the women who went to people like Kermit Gosnell, it was because they were too irresponsible to have the abortion earlier.

          • Defamate

            Uh…no.

            It was because they were 1) dirt poor 2) intimidated from going to the PP down the street because of scary pro-life protestors

          • five_by_five

            Yeah…sure. Whatever makes you feel better about supporting women who had abortions at 30+ weeks gestation.

          • Defamate

            The very policies that you support lead to tragedies like Gosnell. And nice try, I never said that I supported 30 week abortions. But you always go there because you are too dumb to formulate an actual argument.

          • five_by_five

            Except that the Gosnell thing happened in Philadelphia which has an abundance of abortion clinics, so your argument is rather unsubstantiated.

            And I’m glad that you don’t support the women who went to Gosnell. At least we agree on something.

          • Defamate

            1) the women were poor (that means it took them months to save up enough money 2) pro lifers picket Philadelphia clinics and harass women – which is frightening, especially to a poor immigrant woman 3) Gosnell lied to the women about gestational age, and induced labour and then killed live babies.

          • five_by_five

            1. Being poor is zero excuse. Either you have the money available for an abortion or you don’t. If you don’t, I’d suggest that an appropriate alternative would be to not engage in sexual behavior. But I guess responsible behavior is too much to ask of someone.

            2. There were no protesters. Cop out. And even if there were…they were there at 10 weeks and magically disappeared at 30?

            3. Uhh…how could Gosnell lie to them about THEIR gestational age?? You’re acting like these women never had a period before. Do you think they were that dumb? (I don’t know, maybe you do think they were that dumb).

          • Defamate

            1) Yeah? You really believe that someone living below the poverty level can just *instantly* conjure up 800 bucks or more? Idiot

            2)Davida Clarke Johnson, who said “the picketers out there, they just scared me half to death,” leading her to turn to Gosnell in 2001. “[P]rotesters (ironically) were not an issue” at Gosnell’s clinic.

            http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf

            “There was literally a couple feet distance between the protesters and
            the front door … and at times [it was] extremely intimidating,” said
            Farnese, adding that he recalls protesters “shoving plastic baby things”
            in patients’ faces.

            3) Just because a woman or girl can menstruate does not automatically mean that she is an expert on gestation. Are you stupid or something?

          • five_by_five

            1. I didn’t write “instantly.” But, if you cannot afford the cost of the repercussions from sex then maybe, just maybe, you should opt out until you can. I know, being a responsible adult is tough and all.

            2. The quote you provided (which was from a Slate article, not the court report you linked) was never substantiated. The women claimed there were protests, but there were none reported in the media during that time. We call that trying to cover your ass for partaking in infanticide. Your second quote is from 2014…so nice try.

            3 Missing one period? Maybe. Missing two? or three? or FOUR? These women knew exactly what was going on. And every women knows when her last period was and what our normal cycle is. Don’t play stupid.

          • Defamate

            1) You’re living in a fantasy world. People won’t stop having sex. And to suggest that poor people especially should not be having sex is ridiculous. Get your head out of your ass you ignorant twit.

            2) The women claimed there were protests, but there were none reported in the media during that time

            Uhm…protestors protest clinics all the damn time. What, you think that newspapers are going to report on the daily harassment?

            3) Some women have irregular periods. So no, not every woman knows every detail down to the exact week and day, dumbass.

          • expect_resistance

            Looks like you’re playing stupid here.

          • HeilMary1

            Multiple diseases cause women to miss multiple periods, jackass. And save your anti-sex scorn for GOP adulterers like Newt Gingrich and pedophile priests.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Definitely not very bright.

          • HeilMary1

            What a disgusting Nazi misogynist you are to insist the MARRIED working poor not have sex EVER just to avoid offending greedy racist Nazi you.

            Women with polycystic ovarian disease and similar disorders have irregular cycles, so it’s not unusual for women to miscalculate their pregnancies.

          • HeilMary1

            You love it when non-viable fetuses murder their captive hosts.

          • expect_resistance

            You are very immature, and needlessly judgmental. I really
            hope you learn something when you grow up or life will be very difficult for you.

          • five_by_five

            es, I’m judgmental of people like Kermit Gosnell who are murderers.

            But I guess he’s cool with you.

          • ansuz

            Actually, you were being judgmental of the people who went to see Gosnell. (see: “Well, based on the women who went to people like Kermit Gosnell, it was because they were too irresponsible to have the abortion earlier.”)

            But that’s oh, so necessary judgment, amirite? Because the people who go to a sketchy-as-fuck doctor likely to kill or maim them, it’s definitely because they’re irresponsible morons who need some gentle (or not-so-gentle, whatevs) correction; it has nothing whatsoever to do with desperation that makes it worth the risk.

          • five_by_five

            Yeah, I’m ok with being judgmental towards women who would kill their own 30-week old baby.

            You aren’t? Yikes.

          • ansuz

            Look at it this way, if you can’t even manage pity: Your judgment isn’t going to change anything for the better, and might actually make things worse.
            (I’d have killed myself long before thirty weeks. That’s a damn long time to survive a physical invasion.)

            Also, I need a sparkly-text gif that says ‘bodily autonomy’.

          • HeilMary1

            I’m judgmental against mother killers like you who whine about the cost of raising their forced birth ORPHANS.

          • HeilMary1

            Maiming and murdering mothers is cool with you.

          • fiona64

            Well, then, you would be way, way, way out of touch with reality. First of all, the majority of fetal anomalies can’t even be *detected* prior to the 20th week of gestation. At that point, most women are going to seek second opinions about their much-wanted pregnancies gone wrong, which adds even more time.

            Of course, there is also the possibility that an underprivileged woman has had to save up money to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and that delays the process as well.

            But hey, just go on and assume that it’s something as silly as what you posit.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Would you abort a Downs kid?

          • HeilMary1

            Would you let tax payers pay $2.5 million per DS kid to support them for decades when Eric Prince needs that $2.5 million per hour for his anti-Muslim Pentagon crusades and assorted mistresses??

          • fiona64

            To be perfectly frank, I obtained a tubal ligation because my pregnancy (which resulted in my 27 year-old son) almost killed me. I will NOT go through that again, and if that tubal ligation fails there would be an abortion so fast that your head would spin. I would not bother waiting around for week 20 to find out about the health status of the fetus.

    • Defamate

      And can I haz your autograph?

      • Im_Rick_James

        Sorry, can’t do autographs, cuz I’m dead. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I used to love Superfreak, incidentally.

          • expect_resistance

            Reminds me of roller skating. :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, me too :)

  • Killing babies.

    • Defamate

      Please, do elaborate.

      • murder

        • Defamate

          That isn’t elaboration. It’s a single word.

          Surely you can do better, can’t you, . ?

          • satan

          • Defamate

            A compelling argument. I knew you wouldn’t let us down.

          • sophie

            trolling.

          • fiona64

            Are we just throwing out random words? I’ll play: halitosis.

          • There’s nothing random about murder.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Getting kind of lame there.

          • expect_resistance

            I want to play. I need to consult the unabridged 2228 page dictionary.

            [30 seconds later] ….springhead page 1847.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Crumpets.

          • Ella Warnock

            Bitchcakes.

          • expect_resistance

            I love love love it! That would be a great pirate name.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Smeg

        • Jennifer Starr

          Crumbcakes

        • Defamate

          I enjoyed the pirate stuff. Better luck next time.

  • expect_resistance

    Great article Amanda! Thank you for solidifying what we’ve known all along that the antis are anti-woman, anti-sex, and are only interested in policing our sexuality.

  • Pammila Allen

    First is the war on education… many of the religious groups work hard to change the curriculum to teach their religious indoctrination in public schools. They refuse to accept religious freedom – or freedom from religious belief. PERIOD.

    They don’t respect separation of church and state – PERIOD.

    Second – Most of them are misogynists that hate women and just want ultimate control over women. They don’t want women having sex, and when women do, they want to punish women for having sex. By taking away access to contraceptive services, or abortion services… they want to further punish women with children to living impoverished, uneducated, and without access to health care – PERIOD.

    According to them women are property, they think they are gods, they prove that all of the time by their lack of humanity. – PERIOD.

    There is a real war on women… and it is our job to expose their agenda. It is important to fight the Tea Party extremists hate groups – PERIOD.

    • LMAO, you’re a psycho.

      • Defamate

        And you’re a wordsmith.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Wow, your wit just overwhelms me–well,no, it really doesn’t.

        • Defamate

          Speaking of wit, we didn’t violate the TOS, did we? He is flat out lying?

          I am not going to go over there and read the thread if I can help it:P

      • Pammila Allen

        Insult me all you want, I might be a bit passionate, but I do my research.

    • marion vega

      you mean the hate delivered on conservative women for leaving the democrat plantation or that women staff in the white house get paid less than the men or the condescending attitude towards stay at home mothers?

      • goatini

        What a load of nonsense.

        • marion vega

          oh i never say it like that before, of course. i have to point out for you, that was sarcasm. google it

          • HeilMary1

            I don’t believe you.

          • marion vega

            that should have read ”…i never SAW it like that…”

          • goatini

            1. I am under no obligation to support the Palins and Bachmanns of this world, who actively seek to disenfranchise female US citizens to strip them of their civil, human and Constitutional rights, simply because they are double-X.

            2. The study you refer to contained absolutely NO data to support that specious allegation. I read the study in minute detail, and performed analysis on the data that was actually in it. I found that there was NO way that such an allegation could be made in good conscience. A person with a conscience would know that the data could never support that specious (non) conclusion.

            3. All SAHMs are not the same. Many SAHMs condescendingly, from their privileged perch, actively campaign against the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens. Those are the SAHMs that I have issues with. Other SAHMs respect the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens – and also know how lucky they are to have a support system that allows them to be SAHMs.

          • marion vega

            you don’t have to support. just not condone hate on. re bill maher’s ”jokes”

          • Jennifer Starr

            But jokes about Bachmann and Palin just seem to write themselves. I mean, they make it awfully easy.

          • marion vega

            so you say some deserve to be called c/nts?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not a word I care for, but when someone crouches behind bushes to watch a gay pride rally or doesn’t know that Africa is a continent and not a country–like I said, jokes write themselves.

          • badphairy

            I can see Russia from my house!

          • goatini

            I like to laugh at jokes about bad people. Not going to tiptoe around a bad person just because she’s double-X.

            Joking about bad people and the evil they do, helps the good people stay sane.

          • marion vega

            yeah it’s true then
            ”the right thinks the left is wrong. the left thinks the right is evil”
            grow up leftist zealot

          • HeilMary1

            Grow up, fascist righty.

          • marion vega

            i doubt you know what those words mean

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, I don’t think most of the right is evil. I, on the other hand, have been called ‘evil’ by conservatives more than a few times now.

          • marion vega

            that was wrong of them too

          • goatini

            So discernment about bad people of the double-X variety is “leftist zealot”? Get a grip.

      • HeilMary1

        No, I mean the hate dished on GOP brood mares by their cheating playboy husbands for being disfigured by pregnancies in the first place. I mean the hate dished by Rethugs on disfigured spinsters like me because we’ll never get husbands, thanks to all your wars and disfiguring pollution. I mean all the hate you dish on unemployable disabled people or born-intersexed gay people seeking marriage equality just because their parents didn’t abort them. I mean the hate dished on me by Clarence Thomas who refused me equal pay because my anti-abortion scarred face and flat chest offended his playboy sensibilities.

        • marion vega

          not a republican. keep hating shadows though

          • Jennifer Starr

            What, libertarian?

          • marion vega

            independent. & not one of these newly independent ones from recent polls. independents are always independent not just because obamacare makes them scared

          • Jennifer Starr

            You mean, you split your ticket or you vote third-party?

          • marion vega

            i decide at the last concievable second. obama in ’08 not ’12 hilary would have gotten more done

          • goatini

            “independent” = voted for GWBu$h, twice, now pretends he never existed.

          • marion vega

            do you inject the koolaid or take it rectally

          • goatini

            Looks like I was correct.

          • marion vega

            if only you heard the things i said about Bush at the time. your such a fool

          • goatini

            Save it, we’ve heard it all before.

          • marion vega

            i find your lack of intellect disturbing

          • goatini

            Says the nitwit who’s miffed that Palin is (rightly) a laughing stock.

          • marion vega

            are you really Ed Schultz? that would explain a lot

          • expect_resistance

            Ed Schultz, really? Can’t you do better than that?

          • badphairy

            Ed Schultz? Srsly? Can you name anyone from this century? You’ve dated yourself toots, now go pick up your SSI check and toddle on down to Perkins for the AARP meeting. Toodles.

          • marion vega

            this century that’s 14 years old. go watch more MSNBC

          • expect_resistance

            Says the person who doesn’t use capitalization. Not that I’m a grammar freak but you should use correct grammar when you are trying to insult someone for having a lack of intelligence.

          • CJ99

            Get the other sock to blow in your ear, you need a refill

          • marion vega

            put the drugs down…

          • marion vega

            tragic they still allow mentals like you to vote

          • HeilMary1

            That’s better than dumb sock puppets like you voting for the pedophile priest party!

          • marion vega

            pedo…? so you have child abuse in the brain? makes sense. you’d better format your hard drive before the FBI see it

          • HeilMary1

            They’ll find that trash on YOUR computer.

          • marion vega

            i’m not gonna bother with you anymore…i’m not the retard whisperer. run free…

          • Defamate

            we all do it rectally. duh

          • badphairy

            Tastes great, less filling.

          • Defamate

            Just so you know…the members of LiveActionNews thought that they would prank RHRC by 1) posting this on Twitchy 2) coming here as socks themselves (maybe just one not sure)

            And then, one of LAN’s leaders, Calvin Freiburger, compared us to neo-nazis, for the second time in one day:P

          • expect_resistance

            Especially if it’s supposed to cure vomiting.

          • badphairy

            See? “Nae true” all the way. “The only real independence is MY independence, just like the only good abortion was “my” abortion.

            Will their hypocrisy never cease.

          • marion vega

            as opposed to those who describe themselves as such with every intention of voting dem or rep. get a grip koolaid junkie

          • marion vega

            drink more koolaid, monkey

          • CJ99

            Can your ignorant racism be any more blatant?

          • marion vega

            who said anything racist? if you see racism in monkey it’s you who are racist. shave one they’re white

          • badphairy

            Nae true libertarian? Found another one!!!

        • Mary

          You are making no sense..Clinton had many affairs..still does..he’s a Dem. Honey if you were harmed in the workforce, we have laws already in place. Really hope you get some help.

          • Defamate

            At least Dems have affairs with WOMEN:P

          • HeilMary1

            You are a double-standard hypocrite who excuses all your GOP adulterers like Gingrich. And I have many times consulted experts on workplace discrimination, but didn’t have the money to hold the companies accountable. When Clarence Thomas headed the EEOC, he threw out my unequal pay case because my scarred face offended him. He had the last word. Justice is only what GOP playboys allow you, which is why I always vote Democratic.

          • Mary

            I am not..Total BS. I could care less what party or whatever their religious stance is..wrong is wrong…GOP playboys?
            Like the Dems don’t have the same? Did the Dems help you with your case? just wondering…maybe if you mentioned “You always vote Democrate” that might help.

          • HeilMary1

            I got far more help from the Dems than the Rethugs.

      • Ivy Mike

        Nice line of talk radio talking points, there, Independent.

        Oh, and for future reference, you’re supposed to use the “Democrat Plantation” bit when talking about blacks, not women. Might want to brush up on that tomorrow whilst you’re glued to Rush’s show, Indy.

      • Defamate

        try harder next time honey

        booooring

      • Pammila Allen

        The reason women make less income compared to men is because of Republican efforts. You must of missed it – President Obama signed into law the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act 2009 – look it up. It allows women to be able to sue employers for equal pay.

        I don’t see any of my fellow Democrats attacking stay at home mothers, we are feminists, we want empowerment, and education. You can gain that at home just as well as out working in the public.

        • marion vega

          tell the white house to offer equal pat then. & i’m not a rep

          • goatini

            Obviously you never read the actual report or the actual data. As I said before, anyone who read and analyzed the actual report and the actual data could NOT have come to that specious conclusion. The data needed to support such a conclusion was NOT in the report. So stop lying.

          • marion vega

            i revoke your egyptian visa. you need to stop swimming in de nial

          • goatini

            Not my fault you’re a lazy cut and paster.

          • marion vega

            i only cut & paste instagram pics. it is your fault if you cant insult someone properly

          • marion vega

            i only cut & paste instagram pics. not my fault you can’t insult someone properly

          • goatini

            More excuses from you for regurgitating RWNJ nonsense.

          • marion vega

            relax. this is all just a left wing fever dream. wake up michelle malkins gonna be on Fox news giving you secret messages

          • marion vega

            relax. this is all just a left wing fever dream. wake up michelle malkins gonna be on Fox news giving you secret messages

          • marion vega

            relax. this is all just a left wing fever dream. wake up michelle malkins gonna be on Fox news giving you secret messages

          • goatini

            Admit that you never read the report and you’re just regurgitating RWNJ lies.

          • marion vega

            the opinion of a half baked far leftist mean nothing to me. have sweet dreams of rush limbaugh licking your face. & keep that mental image. it was a gift

          • goatini

            …aaaaand when you won’t answer the question, because you know I’m right, double down on the stupid.

          • marion vega

            because you assume facts not in evidence, or true for that matter. if what i think of you means so much to you…i don’t really care. i’m having pie for dinner today

          • goatini

            YOU are the one who is “assum(ing) facts not in evidence”. The 2011 Annual Report to Congress on White House Staff, which was the source document for the RW smear sheet you seem to be citing, the so-called “Free Beacon”, does NOT contain sufficient data for any honest analyst to come to any kind of honest conclusion that the White House does NOT pay females equally to males. I analyzed the data in detail. The data set(s) that would be needed to arrive honestly at such a conclusion are NOT IN THE REPORT. Stop trying to slough off your lazy smear-sheet copy pasta nonsense as “fact”.

          • marion vega

            pop a chill pill & comfort yourself knowing the US is center-right, your leftist ideology isn’t as mainstream as you think

          • goatini

            Changing the subject to your inane fantasies, I see. Real data scares you, I know.

          • marion vega

            there’s nothing fanciful about the center right nature of the US. YOU are the outsider here…

          • goatini

            Still trying to change the subject from the FACT that you never read the actual 2011 Annual Report to Congress on White House Staff, and furthermore, never did the analysis on the data in the report. Which if you DID said analysis, and if you were honest, you would have to admit that you could NOT assert that females do not receive equal pay at the White House.

            The report did NOT contain at least two pieces of data that would be required to accurately derive the conclusion you kept trying to catapult (until I challenged you on it and you subsequently tried to change the subject).

            I find it amusing that your reaction to being successfully challenged on your specious fact-free allegations, is to try to change the subject to inane fantasies of partisan exclusion.

          • marion vega

            keep banging on about it by all means. i can waste your time until friday.

          • goatini

            Just making sure that everyone knows that you can’t back up your BS.

          • marion vega

            & you munch down every piece the pres. feeds you i see. keep swallowing, you voted for it

          • HeilMary1

            MV is just the hypocrite type not only to whine about “selfish” child free women like me who “don’t breed to prop up Social Security “, but also to whine about “greedy slacker” working mothers.

          • marion vega

            why not take issue with obama’s lie that women make 77c to mens $1? it’s actually 91c. even then ignoring the fact they work less hours. or that young professional women make 117% of their male equals? instead you wast your time here. if you like me that much follow the twitter account i signed in to this Disque with

          • goatini

            In 2012, female full-time workers made only 77 cents for every dollar earned by men, a gender wage gap of 23 percent. Fact.

          • marion vega

            typing ‘fact’ doesn’t make it true. it just makes you look like a schytt for brains. it didn’t made ‘the da vinci code’ true either. i have the graphs on my laptop. but Disque on this site doesn’t post pics. so i’ll type it: 2012 total hours worked- women 44% men 56%. so you shouldn’t get the same for less. stop believing your lying president of lies

          • goatini

            I’m citing just ONE of many published academic studies. There’s this new thing now called “the Google”. Suggest you give it a whirl.

          • marion vega

            download firefox.
            you can cite MSNBC style ‘stats’ all you like. you’re welcome to eat all the excrement they feed you, it’s all yours. but are you demanding equal pay for unequal worked hours?

          • HeilMary1

            Liars like you omit women like me who work double hours for the same salary as male coworkers!

          • marion vega

            if that is any way true then you are stupid for not pursuing a legal case.

          • HeilMary1

            Smart but poor and non-celebrity people like me can’t get lawyers for hard-to-prove cases.

          • marion vega

            ”Liars like you…” you might be poor then but you’re not smart.

          • Timothy Griffy

            Since when were intelligence and wealth linked?

          • HeilMary1

            You mean a plate of crow!

          • marion vega

            crow meat would be better tasting than the bitter hate cud you people seem to chew on daily

        • marion vega

          tell the white house to pay them the same as the men then…

          • Pammila Allen

            The president just used his executive power today to increase all contract workers pay to $10.10 an hour. Both men and women, but the congress has to enact law to help all Americans.

          • marion vega

            that’s federal contractors. the WH can pay WH staff anything anytime. even $10.10 is lower than the UK’s £6.31($10.40) increasing to £7

          • Pammila Allen

            You do know how our U.S. Government works don’t you?? Congress is the body of government that creates bills to submit to the President to be signed into law.

            Everybody acts like he can fix everything even though there are obstructionists trying to block every thing that he does. Executive Powers can’t be used for everything.

            If you are going to complain about him, why not the past Presidents… why did they not increase wages??

            When you run as the President you can only put out fires as they come to your attention. I doubt you would be so all encompassing if you had his job. Better late then never. If this was the Republican administration this would not have even been achievable.

          • marion vega

            you don’t need a new law to pay your aide what you want

          • Pammila Allen

            Just went and looked it up, none of the White House Employees make less then $42,000 per year. Looking up the cost of living in D.C. is the problem. I think this just stresses the problem across the US about income not matching cost of living. I am under the poverty level at less then $10,000 per year and I support a household of 3 people. I bet I could make that $42,000 work with what I know about survival skills.

          • marion vega

            what do the women earn x the men. i imagine jay c earns more than the blonde with glasses. he’s on TV more but they’re still the same job. & all behind the scenes

          • Pammila Allen

            If you look at the White House Salaries section and sort out all the salaries in ascending order you will notice the names of the employees are both men and women. All of the lowest paid are not just women. I already pointed out earlier the President signing the Lilly Ledbetter Act.

          • marion vega

            you don’t need a new law to pay your aides what you want. nice diversionary tactic though

    • Im_Rick_James

      You do understand that this is all conjecture based on misinformation / pre-conceived notions you’ve been fed, do you not?

      • goatini

        Ah, yes, because our pretty little minds are so easily filled with “conjecture based on misinformation / pre-conceived notions you’ve been fed”.

        Ms Allen is correct and accurate, and the fact that you don’t agree has ZERO to do with “conjecture based on misinformation / pre-conceived notions you’ve been fed”.

        • Im_Rick_James

          Who said anything about “pretty little minds”? Your implying patronization and condesencion (however you spell that word), where there was none. Speaks more to your point of view than the tone or substance of my comment. I thought her conclusions were bullshit. Still do.

          • HeilMary1

            I have lived my entire miserable life on the receiving end of the GOP-RCC war on women’s rights. You just keep wearing your comfy blinders.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Ms. Mary, with all due respect, you choose how you want to live. You want to live it “miserable”, that is your choice. If you want to let your past go, and move on to something more positive, that choice is yours as well. We all carry baggage from our past. Humbly, it’s up to you whether you want to carry it for the rest of your life. Or, you can just set it down. In all honesty, I hope you can find it in yourself to do the latter.

          • HeilMary1

            Pretty hard to just wipe DISFIGUREMENT off my face, especially since it triggers strangers and conservatives alike to bully me with insults and public humiliation. And it has been very expensive to try to fix. And you are especially not getting the fact that the disfigurement was deliberately imposed by the safe sex-hating RCC.

          • Im_Rick_James

            I am very sorry for that. I would never ridicule you for such an atrocity. I sincerely hope that you find a way to heal your face and your heart. Respectfully, Rick. PS, In response to your below post, we are all deserving of love – you included, and perhaps, especially.

          • Mary

            What is truly sad..being voted “down” for trying to help someone. This is the real war on women and humanity.

          • Defamate

            Oh yeah…nothing like message board psychiatry.

            lulz

          • Mary

            Yeah, trying to help those in need..now there’s a concept. Wait..sorry, forgot the lefty rule..only can help those when it benefits my own agenda..

          • Defamate

            “helping’ people on a message board by way of a few pithy insincere comments isn’t help.

          • HeilMary1

            Your wit is far more uplifting than her condescending “concern”!

          • HeilMary1

            “message board psychiatry”

            LOL! — I’m stealing that!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Let me guess–sidewalk harasser–I mean, ‘counselor’?

          • Mary

            Nope..neither..just common sense.

          • CJ99

            what you exhibit as “common sense” is neither.

          • goatini

            Who needs “help” from a deliberate LIAR spreading intentionally deceptive misinformation about one of the greatest humanitarians of the 20th century?

          • Mary

            Tell me what I lied about? You can’t cause I haven’t.

          • goatini

            So are you admitting that you and “Rick James” are the same sock?

          • badphairy

            Pink sock.

            /urbandictionary

          • badphairy

            “help” can be a four-letter word. If people don’t want your “help” why do you feel it’s your prerogative to force it upon them?

            The First Amendment says you can speak, it certainly doesn’t say anyone has to listen.

          • CJ99

            The war on humanity is being perpetrated by you & your fascist ilk. You do not get to play the victim.

          • L-dan

            Wow…just…wow.

            The victims of various sorts of abuse I know would really fucking love to ‘just set it down.’ The human brain and body do not goddamn work that way, you ignorant, condescending shitbird.

            Argue all you want on the topic at hand. But telling survivors to just be positive and let is all slide? Fuck right the hell off.

          • Mary

            Tell me, what rights have you been denied?

          • Mary

            Still waiting..

          • HeilMary1

            Sorry you asked?

          • HeilMary1

            My childbirth-ruined mom chemically burned all my skin when I was in first grade as her abstinence-only excuse. She then trafficked me for harmful medical experiments at Pentagon-funded hospitals like Johns-Hopkins where I got further burned. She bullied me not to wear make-up, consult plastic surgeons, or even study all night to get good grades. She tried to get my arms amputated so priests would pity HER more. She tried to shave my head to humiliate me. She refused a free air conditioner from a neighbor for my malignant radiation hyperthermia. She overdosed me on barbiturates but wouldn’t take me to the hospital. She made scalded me take naked sun baths in the back yard in cold weather to humiliate me. Her husband let his dad take naked photos of my scalded rear end. Grandpa also liked to torment me with insulting close-ups of my more severely burned elbows and knees at family parties for his freak collection. When I complained about Grandpa’s naked photos, dad smacked me “for picking on a helpless old man”! When I tripped and suffered collapsed lungs and broken ribs, they refused any doctor care. When I discovered that hot steam showers made my radiated dead skin look less scary, mom kept bursting in the locked bathroom to pull me out so I’d keep looking mummified. When my self-defending disobedience escalated, mom then badgered lawyers to put me away or at least dope me up on thorazine because she insisted I was mentally ill to want to look nice, date and get good grades. Her goal was to run out my clock so I’d be too old to ever get a husband by the time I finally paid for all the surgery I needed, and the evil b*tch won. You can’t imagine the misery of spending 3-8 hours every day applying corrective make-up over facial scars just to go to work, run errands and avoid scary bullying insults from strangers. She put me through all of that because of the Vatican’s ban on safe sex.

          • Mary

            A very sad story…and no excuse for what you endured. You need professional help. But I really don’t think this has to do with the topic…it has to due with human decency; child abuse..you can’t be angry at me, because of what your parents did. Yes, be angry at the Church, yes be angry at your parents for allowing this..I’m thinking you are probably around my age when abuse wasn’t talked about..had it in our family as well..we were all ostracized because my Mother spoke out. I was lucky..and I also had help.

          • HeilMary1

            This abuse occurred because of the RCC-GOP war on safe sex and there are millions of victims. If you refuse to connect the dots, the abusers will victimize millions more. If you read up on the ugly history of psychiatry, the RCC, the Nazis, the CIA and big pharma LSD psychotropics, you might get a clue that “therapy” mostly muzzles abuse victims, bankrupts them, and leaves them crippled from prescription tardive dyskinesia.

          • Mary

            Oh honey…your “war” was long started way before this whole conversation/post started. I’ve read it all..lots of bad therapists out there; also lots of good ones. Sorry you haven’t found one. Sorry to think that I actually cared about someone I have never met or knew; sorry that I actually spent my whole evening on a site I really could give two shits about, but because I hate it that women have become so helpless..and who do they blame? The GOP..really? Blame yourselves.

          • expect_resistance

            Who the hell cares about what you think? Ha, you’re a troll. We’ve heard it all before. Go ahead, keep talking in circles and amuse yourself.

          • HeilMary1

            Nazi victim blamer, aren’t you late for your hate rally speaker slot? And If I was so helpless, I wouldn’t be here sharing my info about dangerous abusers like you!

          • CJ99

            You know nothing of human decencey “mary” you are part of the abuse that continues to this day against all of humanity.

          • expect_resistance

            Your comments are very narrow-minded.

      • Jennifer Starr

        No, it’s not conjecture. When I was in school in the ’80s we learned fact-based comprehensive sex education. Now many children learn ‘abstinence-only’ crap, which is not only inaccurate and doesn’t give them all the facts, but also has a religious basis.

        • Im_Rick_James

          Yeah, I went to school in the 80’s too. How is today’s sex-ed, which IMHO should be the responsibility of the parents, not the schools, any different than that?

          • HeilMary1

            I got ZERO sex ed in Catholic schools and from my hypocrite abusive parents.

          • Im_Rick_James

            So your parents screwed that up. Why should it be the responsibility of the schools? Or the state, for that matter?

          • HeilMary1

            So stupid you prefers an explosion of impoverished teen mothers because holy sex haters and pedophile priests prefer the resulting bankrupting social chaos.

          • L-dan

            For the same reason schools teach health classes in the first place…with information on things like why washing your hands is a good idea, and getting enough sleep, etc.

            1. These are public health issues. Actually learning about disease and how to protect yourself from it as much as possible…whether that’s the flu, or HIV, helps reduce the spread of disease and we all benefit from reduced risk of exposure. Likewise society benefits when people can make informed decisions about when to reproduce, rather than having kids as teenagers, etc.

            2. Most parents are doing the best they can, but are hardly experts in all of these areas. We don’t ask parents to be responsible for teaching kids how the electoral college works, why should we expect them to cover reproductive biology in depth? If you can? Great. But what about the kid whose parents never graduated high school themselves. Should they be doomed to ignorance?

          • expect_resistance

            When I was in Catholic school in junior high (circa mid-1980s) we had a few days of “sex education” taught by nuns. It was seriously ridiculous and almost funny if it wasn’t so sad. Every time I asked a question the nun teaching the class would blush and dodge the question.

            “Sex Education” was basically don’t have sex or you’ll go to hell. Don’t engage in “heavy petting” you’ll go to hell. And the worst crime, (gasp sound from the nun) “abortion.” With an emphasis on the letter “A.” At this point I’m trying not to pee my pants laughing. Did they think we would believe their load of crap?

          • goatini

            In 6th grade in the 1960s, we got “Catholic sex-ed” where we were told that the most noble thing we could do was to die in childbirth; and that when we grew up, got married, and got pregnant, we must always go to a Catholic hospital, or else the doctor might save us instead of letting us die.

            Fortunately, in 7th and 8th grade, and in more detail in 10th grade, we received age-appropriate sex education, including the history of the great humanitarian Margaret Sanger and her many wonderful contributions to the lives of modern women.

          • Im_Rick_James

            Margaret Sanger was a eugencist that wanted to exterminate blacks through abortion. Be very careful who you call “great”.

          • Defamate

            Oh not that again…

          • badphairy

            They never learn, and thus assume we never do. It is handy for pointing them out though, because the rhetoric never gets updated. The MRA trolls still bring up Dworkin as a “feminist leader” despite the fact that she’s been dead since 2006. One of them even tried to resurrect Abbie Hoffman, who’s been dead since 1989!!!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Wow, Abbie Hoffman–now that’s quite a stretch.

          • goatini

            I used to work for Abbie’s lawyer, waaaay back in the day…

          • goatini

            But since that’s a steaming load of BS, you’re intentionally attempting to spread deliberate misinformation.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, none of that is the truth.

          • HeilMary1

            Troll, Sanger’s mother was murdered by 17 pregnancies, and since black women disproportionately inherit narrower pelvic bones, they die or suffer much higher rates of bladder and bowel incontinence injuries from obstructed labor. Be careful whom you condemn FOR SAVING BLACK WOMEN!

          • Liora51

            Not to mention the prevalence of scurvy and rickets. And Sanger worked first with white immigrants.

          • fiona64

            You really need to put down the kool-aid, dude … because you could not be *more wrong.* Margaret Sanger established medical clinics in black neighborhoods *where no doctor would go treat the residents.* Educate yourself: http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/secure/newsletter/articles/bc_or_race_control.html

          • P. McCoy

            Republicans are racists or self haters black republicans, I mean and are first to advocate the death penalty for these unborn black babies once they get here and break laws that these same republicans give whites and the rich and pass on.

          • Liora51

            She wanted to help Irish and German immigrant women get out of the slums and succeed in raising the children they could support. Starvation and disease killed so many children of the poor then. And how do you think she knew about birth control? The wealthy had always used it up to and including abortion. It was not genocide it was humanitarian.

          • Dez

            Ahh the old canard of implying black women are too stupid to make their own decisions about their reproduction. Of course we have to be brainwashed by Sanger or PP. There’s absolutely no way we could get abortions without their influence. Do you anti-choicers really think so little of black women?

          • Mary

            Ahhh…very telling. So your parents were abusive and now everyone else is responsible. Now I get it. Please get some real help so you can heal.

          • HeilMary1

            No, b*tch, the anti-safe motherhood Vatican drove my childbirth-ruined mom to abuse me, as it has driven millions of mothers throughout history to abuse unwanted children. Selfish sadistic you wants the global abuse problem to continue in your war on safe sex.

          • Mary

            Not true and so sorry you feel that way that you have to call me names. War on safe sex? I have no idea what that even means.

          • HeilMary1

            Pedophile enabler.

      • badphairy

        Of course, because little dumb women could never assess the data and make up their own minds. They just have to choose which big smart man will tell them what to do, and all the Dem ones chose the wrong one, amirite?

        *eye to tha roll*

      • Pammila Allen

        All you have to do is a google search to verify how many public schools supported by tax payer money, are now teaching creationism.

        The last few months Republicans have cut off unemployment extensions, they already cut food stamps, a lot of states have cut medicaid coverage for chiropractic care, foot care, and dental care. States have been balancing budgets by cutting funding to mental health & rehab clinics, already know key charities have been cut like weatherization, power assistance, food pantries.

        There are misogynists you can deny all you want, they are in plain sight.

        We also know thanks to gerrymandering redistricting that though Democrats can’t displace key Republicans… Tea Party Republicans can bump them. They have been picking off their Republican rivals left and right recently.

  • Ivy Mike

    Talk about a trollbait thread…

    • expect_resistance

      Yeah, no kidding. It’s like anything with Amanda’s name on it is trollbait.

      • Defamate

        I am enjoying .’s contributions. We are discussing baby eating pirates.

        • expect_resistance

          I love pirates! I think we need pirate names.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pirate names would be cool.

          • badphairy

            Dibs on Yellowbeard!

          • expect_resistance

            I’m thinking about choosing the name “Sadie the Goat” She was a pirate who would headbutt her victims. You know how hard my head is.

          • CJ99

            Do we get to shiver the barnacles of the next troll who shows up?

          • expect_resistance

            Yes. We do have a huge influx of trolls lately.

          • HeilMary1

            And make them walk the gang plank into shark-infested waters?

  • anilpetra

    Tell that to the forensic investigators who picked up partially decomposed body parts of murdered babies born alive in Kermit Gosnell’s clinic, Amanda.

    • Defamate

      NO WAY???

      THIS IS THE FIRST WE’VE HEARD OF THAT

      TELL US MORE

    • goatini

      Well, since RHRC has been covering the story of criminal Gosnell since February of 2010, you’re a little late to start your fake “outrage” party.

      • Defamate

        Outrage party. I like the sound of it.

    • Ivy Mike

      I think invoking Gosnell has become some kind of rule that forced-birthers on the internet must follow. They really should beatify the guy…they love him so much, and they think his very name is a killer argument.

      • HeilMary1

        Gosnell joins the ranks of the Clinton and Kennedy clans who get blamed by Fox News for every crime committed by GOPers.

    • HeilMary1

      I’m angry about all the deadly, divorce-causing obstetric bladder and bowel incontinence injuries that force crazy Catholics like my mom to abuse already born me and send my disgusted fed-up dad to high school hookers.

    • Jennifer Starr

      And a criminal who was breaking the law and is in prison where he belongs has what to do with this, exactly?

  • wolfcat

    Hmmm, I’m an atheist, I support birth control and as much sex as you want RESPONSIBLY. According to studies by the Guttmacher Institute, 75% of women seeking abortions admitted to not using birth control at the time of conception. That’s 75% who are just idiots and don’t have a right to kill someone else because they were too lazy to wrap it up. Only 25% were seeking abortions due to health reasons or rape. It’s the 75% who are screwing things up for the people who really have a right to make such a massively damaging decision. Human life is not a joke at any stage.

    • Defamate

      That’s 75% who are just idiots and don’t have a right to kill someone else because they were too lazy to wrap it up.

      You are blaming women for not ‘wrapping it up’…that makes a lot of sense.

      PS a jellybean sized embryo minus functional brain and organs isn’t a ‘someone’

      • Maxwell

        “You are blaming women for not ‘wrapping it up’…that makes a lot of sense.”

        So a woman shouldn’t ensure that the man she is about to have sex is being safe? Interesting position.

        • Defamate

          I feel that ‘critical thinking’ is beyond your capabilities.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh way, way beyond.

        • erly

          So when does the man ever have to make adult decisions?

          • Maxwell

            When he wants to something adult, like have sex. Responsibility to ensure the sex is safe should fall to both individuals. Putting all it on one person is irresponsible/lazy/idiotic.

          • Ella Warnock

            Pro-life men need to not fuck pro-choice women. Easy peasy.

        • Sally Strange

          So a woman shouldn’t ensure that the man she is about to have sex is being safe? Interesting position.

          It’s not so much about what women do or don’t do, as it is about wondering when you’ll get around to acknowledging that men have agency and responsibility too. After that, perhaps we can work on wrapping your small cerebellum around the concept of abusive partners and domestic violence.

          • Maxwell

            Never said men don’t.

      • wolfcat

        Of course I am. Women aren’t dumb little ninnies who cannot figure out that birth control exists. We all know how babies are made and how to not make one. Why would you think otherwise?

        Science disagrees with you. By scientific definition it’s a live individual human being. Common sense would say that it deserves the same right to live as the next live human being. They once said jews, natives, babies, and blacks weren’t someones as well and used your reasoning to kill and torture them as they pleased. Nice to see people still thinking that way…

        • Defamate

          . By scientific definition it’s a live individual human being.

          Show me.

          Common sense would say that it deserves the same right to live as the next live human being

          I’m a living human being. Do I get to use your organs and rape you in order to preserve my life?

          hey once said jews, natives, babies, and blacks weren’t someones as well and used your reasoning to kill and torture them as they pleased.

          1) http://static.tumblr.com/8ed1144896080f95ef639b2f3b3a5f7e/vhqyrxt/Smsmqvhx8/tumblr_static_jesusdino.jpg

          2) http://cfsworldmusic.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sitting_Bull.jpg/44348587/Sitting_Bull.jpg

          3) http://www.jewishsa.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/nelson-mandela.jpg

          4) https://www.baby-connect.com/images/baby2.gif

          5) http://scm-l3.technorati.com/11/10/27/55025/zygote.jpg%3Ft%3D20111027092220

          ———–

          ^One of these is *not* like the others. Can you tell me which one doesn’t fit, sweetie?

          • wolfcat

            Jeebus and dinosaurs, duh.

            Offspring are not raping anyone by sitting in the womb their mother placed them into. Killing a defenseless baby created involuntarily by a mom who did it knowingly is worse than anything you can accuse a baby of.

          • Defamate

            You didn’t answer any of my questions.

            Answer them.

          • expect_resistance

            We’re back to the “baaaaybee” argument. *sigh*

          • Jennifer Starr

            The answers aren’t in the dictionary, I guess. ‘Mirable’, that.

          • expect_resistance

            Forcing a woman to give birth is using her body against her will. That’s rape. Yes, forced birth is rape. Sorry you are so clueless.

          • wolfcat

            Forcing a baby to die is killing another human which is always immoral unless they are intentionally trying to murder you.

            You’re making a mockery of rape which involves sex. I swear that pro abortion people have never met a dictionary.

          • expect_resistance

            Nope, I clearly understand what rape it. A woman who has an abortion is not “forcing a baby” to die. She is ending a pregnancy and removing a fetus from her uterus. A woman’s uterus is not public property. She has autonomy over a fetus in her uterus.

          • HeilMary1

            Rape victims don’t owe rapists further damage to their own bodies.

          • HeilMary1

            Fetuses do intentionally maim and murder their hijacked hosts by EXISTING AND POISONING their surroundings.

          • HeilMary1

            Your belligerent ignorance is proof of our failed abstinence-only “sex-ed”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Created involuntarily by a mom who did it knowingly? You do realize that’s a contradiction, right? And no one is talking about ‘killing babies’.

          • wolfcat

            Really, you couldn’t figure that out? The baby is the involuntary one. Not a hard sentence to understand. Obviously the mom was not created involuntarily…

          • HeilMary1

            If you want to shred your lady parts, bladder, and bowels so Liz Cheney can make more millions getting your offspring blown up in Afghanistan, go right ahead.

            If you have millions saved so you can afford any needed organ transplants caused by gestational diabetes, knock yourself out birthing Newt Gingrich’s next wife.

            If you use cell phones and have daughters, you’ll also need a FACE TRANSPLANT like my dead friend whose cancer-causing daughters gruesomely killed her before face transplants became available.

    • fiona64

      75% of women seeking abortions admitted to not using birth control at
      the time of conception. That’s 75% who are just idiots and don’t have a
      right to kill someone else because they were too lazy to wrap it up

      You do know that this number includes women who were trying to conceive and whose pregnancies went wrong, yes? Yes? And women who were raped? Yes?

      Well, now you do.

      • wolfcat

        Of course I know that, but only 24% of women seeking abortions are doing so due to rape or medical issues. That still leaves more than half of all women seeking abortions having unprotected sex knowing they want no baby and abortions for no good reason….

        More than 72% of women in the U.S. are using some form of birth control. Nearly a million non sexually active women use hormonal birth control for health related non sexual reasons.

        • Defamate

          Would you permit abortion in cases of rape?

          That still leaves more than half of all women seeking abortions having unprotected sex knowing they want no baby and abortions for no good reason….

          I duno, the right to self-determination is a pretty big one. And since we don’t force parents to donate blood and tissue to born children, why are you so concerned about what happens to a brainless embryo? What makes the embryo more special than a born child that it MUST have use of a woman’s body?

          • wolfcat

            O.o Worst rationale ever. The mother put the child into her body against it’s will. What makes a child earlier in a pregnancy any less human that one later? Both are still using her body, why can’t they still have full term abortions and stab it in the skull and suck its brains out? That filthy thing is still borrowing her parts. Why can’t pregnant moms drink and do drugs and smoke without getting mean looks? It’s their body. Those little bastards do not take precedence over the mom’s rights. I suppose it’s fine to laugh at women who miscarry, their broken bodies can’t even hold in a not yet person and they are stupid enough to get sad over it. Losers. Yet…… that’s not the way it works.

            Pregnant moms do not donate any blood and issue to their babies. The baby builds everything itself. It only borrows nutrients which are not part of the mother’s body. Learn biology 101. For the more advanced students, the baby does send stem cells into the mom when she is sick or injured to try to help her.

            For advances ethics, why is it still legal to cut off a part of an infant boy’s penis for no good medical reason? Made popular to stop boys form having sexual pleasure, it also causes severe changes to the baby’s brain development due to the massive dose of stress hormones and pain pushes on such a fragile ad new brain) Why is it legal to pierce a baby’s ears for no medical reason? Both are permanent mutilations to another human’s body. Why is hitting helpless child legal even with nearly 200 studies proving that it does long term harm to a child’s mind? It’s outlawed in over 30 countries for that reason.

            Why is making a child and killing it more ethical to some people than having to share a space for a few months with an innocent baby human you forced into existence through no fault of it’s own?

          • Defamate

            I am glad to have been exposed to this point of view, and appreciate the time you took to express it. What do you know about fetal pain and awareness? You seem quite knowledgeable about fetal development…

          • wolfcat

            Fetal pain and awareness have no influence on the basic ethics of the discussion. There are people who have a genetic issue that causes them not to feel any pain their whole lives. Can I excuse doing all sorts of inexcusable things to their bodies because they cannot feel it? If I wait until someone is drugged and unawares can I do anything I want? What about people suffering in the throws of dementia, psychosis, mental disability, paralysis, or a vegetative state? Are they less human because they feel less and or less aware?

          • Defamate

            Tell me what you know. You are very knowledgeable. Must be that dictionary.

          • Ella Warnock

            The “throws,” huh?

          • Defamate

            Treat her with a little more respect Ella. She is a 4.0 gpa lawyer who has great respect for science and logic and who worked her way up from nothing to owning multiple homes.

            Her friends did the same thing. They all got degrees while raising multiple kids. All from extreme poverty, too. Amazing? No wonder she lacks sympathy for all of those wimpy women who can’t pull it together.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And also she apparently read at a 12th grade level in seventh grade. That must be why she doesn’t know the difference between ‘throws’ and ‘throes’. Really, it’s a ‘mirable’.

          • Defamate

            Alright, I laughed out loud at that.

            0.0

            I’ve been thinking ‘what should the next nick be, no stupid people..’

            And look…we are gifted with a mirable!

            :P

          • Ella Warnock

            People who have never actually suffered much hardship tend to be the ones with little empathy.

          • Defamate
          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually pregnancy requires a hell of a lot from a woman, and even the most easy pregnancies carry significant risks. Unless you can be pregnant for her, it’s not up to you to dictate what she should ‘share space’ with.

          • wolfcat

            Pregnancies are actually very low risk. Very few women have problems. It’s a first world country. Were it third world that might be an argument.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, no. Actually we rank 50th in the world for maternal mortality, and the maternal mortality rate has more than doubled in the last quarter century. Again, not as easy as you would think.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, you’ve never been pregnant and are still being home-skooled.

          • Defamate

            citation needed for low health risk associated with pregnancy

          • BJ Survivor

            More inanities that can be easily refuted with a 30-second Google search. You are exceedingly stupid.

          • HeilMary1

            Microchimerism from fetal cells triggers deadly autoimmune diseases in mothers, you dumb ass “expert”.

          • goatini

            “Pregnant (women) do not donate any blood and issue to their (fetuses). The (fetus) builds everything itself. It only borrows nutrients which are not part of the (woman’s) body.”

            WHAT A LOAD

            I agree, HM – it’s never been pregnant and is still being homeskooled.

          • Defamate

            Pregnant moms do not donate any blood and issue to their babies. The
            baby builds everything itself. It only borrows nutrients which are not
            part of the mother’s body. Learn biology 101. For the more advanced
            students, the baby does send stem cells into the mom when she is sick or
            injured to try to help her.

            will need more citations

          • fiona64


            Those little bastards do not take precedence over the mom’s rights.

            Congratulations! It appears that you *can* be taught after all …

          • fiona64

            Pregnant moms do not donate any blood and issue to their babies. The
            baby builds everything itself. It only borrows nutrients which are not
            part of the mother’s body. Learn biology 101

            I suggest *you* learn biology 101. The umbilicus is used to remove nutrients from the pregnant woman’s body. That’s why women have to take all kinds of extra supplements. Gawd. Is anyone really so stupid as all that?

            http://www.webmd.com/baby/pregnancy-diet-nutrients-you-need

            Please note the number of times that this layman’s site (chosen just for you, so that the fancy medical terminology doesn’t break your brain) refers to what the fetus *takes from the woman’s body.*

          • Defamate

            Wow. You’ve made quite the chain of moronic statements. Literally, they just keep coming, one after another.

            Let’s see if we can break down your statements:

            1) The “I know someone who…” argument – GREAT! Anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS VALUED by people who are–as you claim to be–“completely pro science”, right? Thanks for the laughs, toots.

            2) The dictionary definition bit was pretty good too. For some reason, I thought that dictionaries were little more than imperfect references on word usage, and not actually The Final Say on the nature of life, the universe, and Everything.

            To that end, I note that my dictionary defines the word “Erection” as: “a building or other upright structure.” Since what’s printed in the dictionary trumps EVERYTHING, I shall endeavor to use this as often as I can. Just think, I can sit inside the privacy of my own erection, and be surrounded by such erections as my computer, my bookshelf, and my refrigerator! Well, I’m going to go put my dictionary back on my erection.

            3) “didn’t kill my kids because I selfishly wanted unprotected sex” — PROFOUND. You’ve really gotten many different aspects of idiocy condensed into a short sentence. I’ll have to break this down:

            a) “didn’t kill my kids” — You mean “post birth abortion”? Yeah, I’d hope you didn’t, because that would be murder.
            b) “selfishly wanted [...] sex” — Yawn. Typical s1utshaming crap. Try something new, like: “You selfishly wanted candy? You deserve diabetes!”
            c) “unprotected sex” — Look at you go, with all your unfounded and moronic assumptions! Just wait until your “completely pro science” self learns how to research factual information on your own. Until then, I’ll have to hold your hand and do it for you:

            http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/UnintendedPregnancy/PDF/Contraceptive_methods_508.pdf

            Whoops! Looks like birth control doesn’t just magically work. But hey, dirty, nasty s1uts shouldn’t ever even THINK about having sex, right? Because the invisible man in the sky only approves of sex when it’s performed by people complying with ancient jewish property law (aka marriage). AND ALSO, undeveloped proto-humans are people too! Which is why all pregnant women should get to vote TWICE in every election. Because they have twice as much person going on in there.

            4) “Pregnant moms do not donate any blood and tissue to their babies. The baby builds everything itself. It only borrows nutrients which are not part of the mother’s body. Learn biology 101. For the more advanced students, the baby does send stem cells into the mom when she is sick or injured to try to help her.”

            … ROFL

            “The baby builds everything itself.” — It transcends space and time, and generates new matter for itself?

            “It only borrows nutrients…” — Borrows? So, it gives them back when it’s done, right?

            “which are not part of the mother’s body.” — It reaches its tendrils out and takes them from its host’s surroundings?

            “Learn biology 101.” — No comment!

            “the baby does send stem cells into the mom when she is sick or injured to try to help her.” — Yes, it’s sitting there thinking “DON’T WORRY MOM, I GOT THIS”, right?

          • redlemon

            If the embryo/fetus doesn’t take anything from the woman and just magically generates their own nutrients and stuff, why can’t a woman drink or smoke during pregnancy? It’s obviously just magically making it’s own stuff.

          • BJ Survivor

            The mother put the child into her body against it’s will.

            Wrong. Human females are incapable of self-fertilization, dumbfuck.

        • fiona64

          Actually, your statistic is inaccurate to begin with.

          46 percent of women were not using contraception during the month in which they conceived (that’s a far cry from 75 percent). http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

          And really, since no woman is required to report her reason for seeking an abortion, your second figure is suspect as well. I hope you take the two or three minutes necessary to read the link I provided and educate yourself before you come back to the discussion.

        • BJ Survivor

          Pregnancy is a medical condition, idiot. Go back to your forced-birther wankfests, the grownups are trying to have a conversation here.

    • HeilMary1

      You holy anti-sexers have made getting affordable reliable contraception really difficult for low-income women with no health insurance, and you’ve completely gutted sex-ed of scary crucial info about obstetric incontinence, etc., so that when poor pregnant women find out they’re facing decades of disabilities from childbearing, of course they’ll seek abortions.

      • wolfcat

        I’m an atheist and there’s nothing holy about it. I have in no way made obtaining birth control difficult. I completely support people using birth control. If they did so, abortions levels would be much lower. Low income is no excuse for unprotected sex. I’ve been able to find condoms for free or cheap since elementary school. Even high schoolers can manage. You’re telling me that women in their 20’s who make up the bulk of abortion seekers can’t figure out how to buy a cheap pack of condoms and protect themselves from not only a baby they do not want but also a host of STD’s? Your mentality is exactly why a quarter of americans have an STD. People think a baby is the worst thing they can catch.

        I’ve been a poor pregnant woman. It in no way held me back or hurt my life. I could still manage to get birth control if I wanted it. I just didn’t. I didn’t go off and kill my kids because I selfishly wanted unprotected sex. I made my decision. The world didn’t end and my children live happily on in a middle class home now. I worked, breastfed, practiced attachment parenting, and managed to go to college full time. People just want an excuse.

        • Defamate

          I made my decision. The world didn’t end and my children live happily
          on in a middle class home now. I worked, breastfed, practiced attachment
          parenting, and managed to go to college full time. People just want an
          excuse.

          You don’t speak for all people, you know? Just because *you* could do it, doesn’t mean others have the capability. There are barriers in other people’s lives that probably never existed in yours. Think about that.

          • wolfcat

            Actually, lots of people do it. Some of my best friends did. One got pregnant for the first time at 14 and it happily married with 4 kids and living middle class. Another lost a college scholarship due to her first child and didn’t complain a bit. She managed to have two more kids and still finished her bachelors while working full time and is now upper middle class. Met them both in a group for poor single moms. The average amount of time a person spends on welfare is only about 3-5 years. That’s the amount of time it takes to get a degree. There’s no barrier stopping anyone but themselves. For the people who simply don’t want to deal with any responsibility in life there’s always adoption.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting. It doesn’t do a thing for an unwanted pregnancy.

          • wolfcat

            That’s what an early c-section is for. They can make up for it later in increased healthcare costs for their sickly and non breastfed children as they age in the loving home of better people.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope sorry, still doesn’t do a thing for an unwanted pregnancy.

          • wolfcat

            Of course not, but birth control does…. Funny how people keep ignoring the most logical solution in favor of a completely unethical and psychotic one…

          • Jennifer Starr

            Funny how little empty-headed ‘pro-lifers’ keep trying to pretend that everything is so ‘simple’ when it isn’t. But simple pretty much defines you, doesn’t it?

          • HeilMary1

            Premature c-sections cost $50,000 and millions for the premies, and your Teatard friends will then whine about the costs.

          • BJ Survivor

            Caesarian-section is major abdominal surgery with all its attendant risks. Again, you are talking out your ass.

          • HeilMary1

            My boss’s former neighbor’s twins made him JOBLESS AND HOMELESS because their delivery KILLED HIS WIFE!

            My ex-coworker at USAToday lost his sister AND HER HUSBAND because their daughter TRIGGERED HER LETHAL BREAST CANCER AND HIS FATAL HEART ATTACK, LEAVING THREE KIDS ORPHANS!

          • HeilMary1

            Yeah, my friend whose FACE ROTTED OFF from her planned pregnancies stayed poor on disability because her husband LEFT and it’s pretty hard to get hired anywhere when you have NO NOSE TO BREATH THROUGH AND NO LIPS TO ENUNCIATE PROPERLY.

        • redlemon

          Being pregnant hurt me a lot. Besides my gestational diabetes, my inability to breathe for about two months, and the failure of my gallbladder, I had a serious case of postpartum psychosis after she was born. It hurt my life a lot. I ended up trying to kill myself, a week in a psych ward, a month in halfway, and being on medication so strong that I physically *couldn’t* wake up at night to feed her. If I didn’t have my husband, she just would not have been fed at night or I just wouldn’t take my meds, which wouldn’t help that pesky psychosis at all. And this was a wanted, planned child, in a stable marriage. If not for that, we’d all just be another statistic somewhere.

          I made my choice and, if I ever need to make my choice again, I know which route I’d go. But go ahead and tell me that I’m just making an excuse.

          • wolfcat

            You could have given her up. You should never have another child if you have post partum psychosis and so many health problems. They just get worse every time. Clearly your gene pool sucks anyways. Surprised you’re still alive after not breathing for two whole months. It’s a mirable! Also, post partum psychosis does not usually pop up without some prior psych issues. You’re perfectly free to get sterilized and you’d have no excuse for needing an abortion ever.

          • redlemon

            Ah, your empathy and love is overwhelming.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Wow, you really have some nerve, sitting there in smug judgment and belittling and mocking the problems of others.

          • redlemon

            Not only mocking my choices, but also managing to mock mental illness at the same time! Because the mentally ill never deserve to actually have children and giving my *wanted* daughter up for adoption would have prevented any sort of psychosis from hormones. /sarcasm

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, she’s a real nasty piece of work.

          • redlemon

            What I don’t get is how the lack of empathy is supposed to get me on her side. There’s never any empathy or compassion for when things go wrong in pregnancy, it’s always “such-and-such was your own fault, you should’ve kept your legs closed, adopt out your (wanted) kid, and sterilize yourself!” Never anything helpful. Either a woman has to shut up about any bad pregnancy experience or glorify it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Anti-choicers seem to think that it’s taboo to admit that pregnancy is not all fluffy clouds, rainbows and unicorns, and you’re right– there is a total lack of compassion and empathy. And then they want us to believe that they love and care about women?? It’s unbelievable.

          • redlemon

            For a long time, I’ve been pro-choice (after growing up pro-life), but pregnancy really got me on the pro-choice side. It wasn’t even so much a bad pregnancy and postpartum, as much as it was the lack of support and how much “you should suck it up” I got afterwards. A Christian woman’s psychologist, who specialized in postpartum problems, ignored my signs of PPP and just told me I was a terrible mother and should put my kid in daycare and let them raise her. My husband and in-laws fought hard for me and supported me every step. Pretending these things don’t exist is just cruel.

          • BJ Survivor

            And then they want us to believe that they love and care about women??

            Yeah, that’s laughable enough. What’s mind-boggling is that many others actually believe that they just care so, so much about the beleaguered unborned babbies, despite all their actions – cutting TANF, EBT, perpetuating pay inequality, cutting funding for contraception and even prenatal care for low-income women, decimating workplace protections for pregnant people, et cetera, ad nauseum – that proves only that they are hell-bent on increasing the amount of unnecessary suffering for women who dare to have sex they don’t approve of, along with their children, of course.

          • Defamate

            yeah. They said the same thing about Beatriz. That she should accept death, because she asked for it by getting pregnant. Same with Savita as well.

          • BJ Survivor

            And, dontcha know, mental illness isn’t REAL illness. It’s all in your head. /sarcasm

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh, and it’s a ‘mirable’ that you managed to graduate from any college.

          • HeilMary1

            But your pompous Catholic buddies want to criminalize all sterilizations and contraceptives for such women. That’s why my childbirth-ruined mom disfigured me as her abstinence only excuse. Denial of family planning guarantees abuse of forced birth kids.

          • Defamate

            Only 2% of women ever give up their children for adoption. It just doesn’t happen. The fetus releases hormones which promote maternal bonding once it’s born. So no, adoption isn’t a realistic option.

            Futhermore, adoption is not the answer to ‘don’t want to be pregnant’

          • Dez

            Wow you’re an awful person. You are another perfect example of the typical force birther that hates women and lacks any empathy at all. You might as well be a Christian with the stupid and hateful stuff you just sad to red. You deserve no respect all all.

          • Defamate

            If you have the time, check her history, go back 2 months..tell me if you think it’s for realz

          • BJ Survivor

            This persons is NOT an atheist. The new tactic by forced-birthers is to pretend to be atheists so they can claim that the forced-birth position is not religiously derived.

          • fiona64

            What a wonderful “pro-life” attitude you have.

          • BJ Survivor

            Neither reading comprehension nor empathy is your strong suit. Why would she give up a very much wanted child? She is describing the damage to her health that was a result of her pregnancy, you hateful waste of carbon. Of course, in your delusional world, pregnancy is perfectly safe and healthy in First World countries.

        • Jennifer Starr

          They apparently failed to teach proper grammar at this college of yours.

          • wolfcat

            Ahhh, the lack of an actual rebuttal leading to the most base and reply. Why are you here?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Apparently I’m here because I want the most most ‘base and replies’, whatever that’s supposed to mean. Though actually I just come here because they bribe me with extra coffee…..

          • Ella Warnock

            She’s always here. Seriously?

        • HeilMary1

          You had sex in elementary school? — my childbirth-ruined mom chemically burned all my skin off when I started first grade because her favorite playboy priest wouldn’t allow her condoms, etc. to avoid another bladder and bowel-shredding childbirth! And what if your planned pregnancies triggered cancer and job-firing stinky incontinence??

        • Jennifer Starr

          Who on earth were you having sex with in Elementary school?

          • HeilMary1

            Priests?

        • Defamate

          When did you get pregnant?

    • erly

      25% is still a pretty big number…

      And honestly, if idiots are procreating and want an abortion? Give it to them. Don’t damn the future to idiocracy.

    • Ivy Mike

      Who exactly gave you the wisdom and power to decide who has a “good” reason for a legal medical procedure, and who does not?
      Bluntly, it’s none of your business. Besides, why would you want people who DO NOT wish to be parents to be forced into that circumstance? Do you think they’ll magically turn into June Cleaver?!?

      Oh, and as for human life not being a “joke”? At the behest of our fine government, I have spent some time in countries where abortion is utterly banned along with contraception. Places like El Salvador, the Philippines, Ecuador…want to guess how “sacred” life really is in those places?

      • goatini

        En estos paises, la vida es barata.

      • wolfcat

        Common sense. The very basics of morals should lie in the premise of “If it hurts anything for no good reason then it is wrong.” Those reasons have always been food, shelter, and life or death.

        We’re talking about the U.S. which is a first world country and which claims to be more civilized while failing drastically year after year when it comes to the rights of children.

        Everything is everyone’s business. We all live on the same planet, and the decisions of one person has an effect on many others. This sense on my business and your business is a reason why the U.S. is failing faster and faster and falling behind. A bigger reason is the popular trend of shirking any kind of personal responsibility.

        • Ivy Mike

          “Everything is everyone’s business”

          Have you perchance ever stumbled upon this quaint document we like to call the Constitution? Specifically, the Fourth Amendment to the Bill of Rights contained therein?

          And your “common sense” is a code-word for “I have no rational argument”.

          Seriously, “everyone’s business”? So, you’d be okay with someone filming you all day long and posting it on the internet for LULZ, without asking you? Did that sound better in your head?

        • Ivy Mike

          “Everything is everyone’s business”

          Have you perchance ever stumbled upon this quaint document we like to call the Constitution? Specifically, the Fourth Amendment to the Bill of Rights contained therein?

          And your “common sense” is a code-word for “I have no rational argument”.

          Seriously, “everyone’s business”? So, you’d be okay with someone filming you all day long and posting it on the internet for LULZ, without asking you? Did that sound better in your head?

    • GrumpyOne

      Exactly… It’s about the refusal of the 75% to take personal responsibility for their actions.

      But that is what the takers of “free stuff” cannot admit to. To do so would negate their entire belief system…

      • HeilMary1

        You selfish billionaire Treasury looters are mad that us working stiffs refuse to be short-lived slaves so you can be richer still and rape our forced-birth orphans. You get away with that in the Philippines and Latin America, but we American women are fighting back.

      • L-dan

        wait…so you see a stat that says 75% of abortion seekers didn’t use contraception and your response is “they’re irresponsible…make abortion illegal so they can raise the next generation?” wow, that sounds like a stellar plan. /sarcasm

        Any statistics on *why* they weren’t using contraception? Given the years of abstinence only education I’m not even confident about the number that were fully educated on forms of contraception.

      • Liora51

        generally speaking, it takes only once to get preggers. Very often it due to ignorance or lack of sex ed in young people. If you are taught that abstinence is the only way then being prepared ahead of time is a sign of depravity. And for the older among us? A slip up on anti-biotics can neutralize the pill, a passionate encounter with ones husband can lead to an unwanted or unsupportable pregnancy. You know, the only moral ones are the ones you have–or your girlfriend.

        • HeilMary1

          Or the mistresses of priests and Newt Gingrich.

    • Sally Strange

      Good point, instead of allowing these idiots who were too lazy to wrap it up to get an abortion, let’s put them in charge of raising the next generation. What could possibly go wrong?

      It’s clear how much you really care about children.

      • badphairy

        Hmmm, I never thought of ‘Married…with Children” as a documentary before.

        *shudder*

      • wolfcat

        Adoption. My mom was one of those dumb people. I still don’t object to being born. My little sister was one of those people and was adopted. She’s happy to be here.

        • HeilMary1

          Wish I had been aborted.

    • Rianya

      “Kill someone”?

      Do you know what happens to the children born to parents who didn’t want them and were forced to have them.

      I know because I was one.
      Anyone who thinks death before I was ever aware wouldn’t be preferable to the hell my childhood was is just cruel. YOU go ahead an be born to parents who resent your existence, and get beaten bruised and bloody over more than half your body on a regular basis. YOU go ahead and be criticized, belittled, torn down and destroyed by angry parents. Then you come here and tell me how awful a merciful erasure from existence before you had the cognitive function to feel pain, much less be aware of your existence, is.

      Until then, keep your one-sided, dewy eyed attitude about how fantastic “life” is to yourself.

      It is far better to eliminate a fetus than to force it to be an unwanted child in a home that hates it for existing.

      • HeilMary1

        Amen! (Or Ramen for the Pastafarians here.)

  • Ian Sean

    Litmus test for the difference: find out what they think of non-abortive contraception. (While I certainly *could* be the only guy who sincerely believed his former and misguided pro-life views were based on a universal right to life…that’s probably very unlikely.)

    • HeilMary1

      Catholic womb traffickers oppose all AIDS-avoiding condoms, other barrier methods and “mutilating” sterilizations because deadly pregnancy-caused cancers, sepsis limb amputations, and bladder and bowel lacerations are “God’s Will”. This proves to me that these Catholics are criminal Munchausen by Proxy psychopaths, not to mention Jansenist HERETICS (salvation by sado-masochism only). They insist all sex be open to the transmission of new life (including viral HIV “life”), never mind that this guarantees the TERMINATION OF MATERNAL life.

      • Im_Rick_James

        Lady, you got some serious hate issues. Whatever the experiences in your life that led you to this point, I’m sorry for that. But that said, you may wanna deal with those issues instead of projecting your beliefs onto a whole big-ass group of people.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Mary grew up in an extremely abusive Catholic home–just to let you know where she’s coming from and why she feels the way she does.

          • http://orograndetraining.com/ Jeff Gunn

            Perhaps she should seek psychiatric help, then, rather than spewing hatred online.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Perhaps she should decide what she should do, and not you or I.

          • http://orograndetraining.com/ Jeff Gunn

            I’m mainly concerned that someone so obviously unhinged might buy a gun and shoot up a mall, a school, or a church, as mentally unstable far-left types are so fond of doing.

          • Defamate

            as mentally unstable far-left types are so fond of doing.

            citation needed

          • http://orograndetraining.com/ Jeff Gunn

            Try watching the news or reading a paper. Way too many to cite, and they’re all crazy lefties.

          • goatini

            Another fact-free barf.

          • badphairy

            Can’t you just hear them in the sweaty locker-room stench of IRC?

            Jeffy1 “Hurr durr, I’m gonna go rile me up a femmernazzi, derpherp”
            Jeffy2 “Har har, that’ll show em we is supeeryer!”

            Saturday morning cartoons contain greater intellectual value.

          • HeilMary1

            No, all the shooters are WHITE MALE RIGHT-WINGERS!

          • expect_resistance

            That’s not an excuse. Citation.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What, you mean like Scott Roeder? Eric Rudolph? Paul Hill? John Salvi? Shelley Shannon? Cheryl Sullenger?

          • Defamate

            Jeffy is a high level NRA member who wishes that Obama was hanging by the neck until dead..

            And Dirkie is a PUA.

            lulz

            Add PJ4 and her buddy to the list and oh, what a day.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And Jeffy calls other people crazy?

            What is a PUA?

          • Defamate

            Pick Up Artist

            Dirk has an entire webpage devoted to his conquests

            He is also anti-abortion

            Read his history:P

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pick Up Artist–Oh, that’s just plain pitiful–sort of like Leisure Suit Larry, but sadder.

          • Defamate

            haha, I used to play that!

            I loved playing poker and picking up hookers.

          • Renee Goodwin

            They were all pretty good except the last one, when the guy that started the games series wasn’t working with the company that put together the software any more.
            My first new computer was an Amiga and the first two games that I bought for it was Leisure Suit Larry and Hero’s Quest (So, you want to be a Hero) both put out by Sierra if I remember correctly

          • CJ99

            or Herb Tarlek

            “Hey herb, a VW bug called, it wants its car seats back”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Is Dirk the one who now appears as ‘Guest’?

          • Defamate

            No. Guest actually appeared as “guest” or formerly ‘blank’

          • HeilMary1

            Wonder what Dirk would do about any conquests suffering obstetric incontinence. Or are his “girlfriends” under age 10?

          • expect_resistance

            I doubt he has any idea.

          • HeilMary1

            Mr. GUNN, you right-wing gun-loving fetal idolaters/pedophiles are the crazy ones shooting up malls, etc., not us female victims of YOUR abuse.

          • Ella Warnock

            They do. What, you haven’t watched the news lately? Columbia mall shooting.

          • expect_resistance

            She’s not unhinged, so nothing for you to worry about. Why don’t you do some research about who commits gun violence.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, those lefties … like Scott Roeder, Eric Rudolph and Paul Hill.

            Oh, wait …

          • HeilMary1

            And be quiet about child abusers so they can victimize more people? YOU are the crazy one spreading hate.

          • expect_resistance

            Do you think before you speak? Try reading the previous thread before you say something inappropriate.

          • Ella Warnock

            Nah, she’s a good egg.

        • expect_resistance

          She’s not angry, her outrage is justified. Let’s lay off the assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

        • HeilMary1

          If you read my comments more carefully, you would know that I initially supported the Tea Party and Libertarians on some issues. I’m merely pointing out how the toxic Catholic tail is wagging the entire Libertarian dog.

        • Ella Warnock

          I don’t thing you’re really Rick James. ((narrows eyes))

      • Ian Sean

        Oh, the anti-contraceptive folks are *definitely* butthurt about sex.

    • BJ Survivor

      To boot, the forced-birth crowd – with only a very few exceptions and none as far as the mainstream forced-brith movement is concerned – claims that hormonal contraception and IUDs, essentially all the most effective methods, are indeed abortifacient. Even the ones claiming to be atheist. It’s an ocean of stupid with those folks.

  • erly

    Not for low-income women in Washington state. It’s called Take Charge.

  • Ivy Mike

    Know what really brings on the belly laughs in a thread like this? All the so-called “atheist”, “Independant”, “Libertarian”, and “I’m pro-choice BUT…” folks who all miraculously appeared here, on the same day, within hours of each other, without ever having posted here before.

    Do they really think anyone here is fooled? Seriously?

    All that besides the fact that their arguments are built on ignorance and fanaticism, devoid of any evidence or fact, and even devoid of any human decency.

    All you trolls should really take the time someday to apologize…to the families of Marlise Munoz, Savita Halappanar, and every other victim of forced-birth heartlessness, to include every clinic worker murdered and maimed. You might also send an apology to the multitudes of RCC victims of sexual abuse, exploitation, and slavery. Maybe kick some donations to them, instead of carrying water for their victimizers, as you are here whether or not you know it.

    After you do all that, you MIGHT have room to talk. Not before.

  • Defamate

    From LAN:

    PJ4

    Marauder

    an hour ago

    Ah… Pro aborts now apparently are under the delusion that we’re angry about sex

    http://rhrealitycheck.org/arti

    Have a good laugh!

    Calvin I hope you write a counter to this assclownary :-)

    The best part is the morons who are commenting.

    OH.. if only they knew!

    LOL

    oh and there’s this jewel of celeb-authority… the pro death camp now
    ironically call us pro control. hahahaha as though we’re the ones who
    want to control who gets to live and who gets a death sentence…

    http://twitchy.com/2014/01/27/

    4

    Reply

    Share ›

    john lind

    PJ4

    29 minutes ago

    I just posted the below link from newwavefeminists over at
    rhrealitycheck. It pretty much decimates their silly “pro lifers hate
    sex” argument.
    http://newwavefeminists.blogsp

    2

    Reply

    Share ›

    PJ4

    john lind

    25 minutes ago

    Oh oh… now you’ve started it…
    Que their histrionics and outrage.
    Be prepared for the standard name calling and screeching.
    They’re true banshees.

    But it’s pretty fun seeing them come undone. :-)

    http://liveactionnews org/how-to-ensure-roe-v-wade-doesnt-last-another-41-years/

    —————–

    They seem to think that they are messing with us:P

    • Defamate

      More than a few of the trolls here tonight might just be LAN sockpuppets guys:P

      • Jennifer Starr

        I wouldn’t be at all surprised. Actually yes I would, seeing as they appear to be terrified to come to this board :)

        • Defamate

          Yeah. Why can’t PJ4 come under her own nym?

          • Jennifer Starr

            She’s scared of being ‘stalked’.

          • Defamate

            We’ve never pranked LAN, have we?

            No, we haven’t.

            That they actually think this was clever is just embarrassing for them. They are acting like teenagers.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A lot of them are teenagers there–that’s about the level of their ‘reasoning’. Doesn’t surprise me. No, we’ve never pranked them.

    • Defamate

      PJ4


      30 minutes ago

      LOLOL

      Check out Calvin’s newest article.

      http://liveactionnews.org/how-

      I left a link to a ridiculous Marcotte article and John Lind left a link to one of the best articles I’ve ever read!!

      oh.. i have to give you this disclaimer: try not to lose too many brain cells reading the RH article. :-)

    • Jennifer Starr

      Good lord, but it’s hilarious.

      • Defamate

        I wish I knew who posed the newwavefeminists link, but, the dumbest trolls today were marion vega and blank…

        So, I suspect it’s them. The rest are just garden variety whackjobs.

      • Defamate

        Ok. PJ4 thought she’d be smart and post the link to this article at Twitchy:P

        John Lind was up to something else. He tried to post a link here to this hilarious site, in order to try to ‘reach’ us:

        http://newwavefeminists.blogspot.ca/2013/07/an-open-letter-to-radical-pro-choice.html

        Of course, it was censored by the bot, both times. They naively think that we will read something authored by ‘new wave feminists’ and have an epiphany that abortion is teh evil?

        I mean, there are tonnes of ‘womens’ ‘feminist’ groups that are run by right wing evangelical nutjobs so, no honey, no.

        And then Calvin adds this turd:

        Calvin Freiburger


        8 minutes ago

        Yeah, the echo chamber effect is in full force over there. Honestly,
        the rationality and hysteria at RH is virtually indistinguishable from a
        Stormfront chat room.

        So, let’s look at what the intellectually and morally superior LAN members did today:

        1) posted a link to this article so that we would get steamrolled by angry rightwing nutjobs

        2) came here to troll us sockpuppets and ‘convince’ us that we are doing it all wrong by showing us silly fake feminist links

        3) Calvin compares us to actual neo-nazis…

        • Jennifer Starr

          I’ve read New Wave Feminists before . ‘Chill, it’s not a Winnebago’ was beyond lame. Never mind the fact that neither of the women behind that site is old enough to actually know what New Wave was.

          • Defamate

            Yeah here in Canada there is a ‘REAL WOMEN OF CANADA group that purports to be feminist but it’s a bunch of conservative wingnuts.

            I just love that Calvin Godwin’d us twice today. He is, indeed, a superior man:P

          • Jennifer Starr

            He also called our group ‘The Babykiller Brigade’–but remember, he doesn’t do personal attacks ; )

          • Defamate

            I might mention it over at CE:P

          • badphairy

            Did they mean a tribe member or an RV?

          • Jennifer Starr

            An RV. The reasoning was that babies are sooo easy and not a crisis–you know, not as difficult as a Winnebago. Except that’s even close to being the truth. I’ve taken care of many children over the years, babies included. A Winnebago would be a piece of cake by comparison,

  • Kathrine Kristiansen-Olsen

    Reading these comments scares the living daylights out of me. Here in Norway we put this discussion to rest 39 year ago. Before we got the “abortion law” – 1975-13-06 – we had debates that lasted a couple of years – not a single person was killed in these “debates”. This is 2014, people! Come on!? To me it seems like pretty scary forces are trying to drag USA kicking and screaming back into the dark ages…

    • badphairy

      Yeah, the descendants of people y’all (apparently rightfully) kicked out of Europe Xhundred years ago. *le sigh*

    • We’re mostly only concerned with what happens in real countries.
      Scandanavia.. what an embarrassment. Even Europe is laughing at you.

      • Defamate

        Scandinavian countries are doing better than the rest of the world right now – economically + quality of life.

        • Guest

          HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
          Oh, you were serious? That’s so sad..

          • Defamate

            Prove me wrong.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Prove us wrong, using your actual handle.

      • L-dan

        Seriously? Obviously you don’t know any actual Europeans. Had a discussion with someone just the other day about how much they enjoyed moving up there from Italy.

        Also, way to be a complete ass. “real countries”? Way to put on the ‘ugly American’ mask. You and your ilk are why the rest of world laughs at us…or stares in horror.

        • Kathrine Kristiansen-Olsen

          I honestly don’t care what nameless trolls write, but it’s very encouraging that some of you take the time to defend “people of less than real countries”! So thank you! Norway is by no means perfect. I could go on and on about taxes, expenses etc. but the bottom line is that Norway is pretty neat over all, with (almost) free healthcare and education. We are taxed within an inch of our lifes, but we don’t have to worry about getting sick or growing old. That’s pretty cool. :D

          • Defamate
          • Kathrine Kristiansen-Olsen

            As expected, really. The Brits have been in love with Scandinavia for a couple of years, and sometimes there is a bit of a backlash. Especially since Scandinavia did’nt seem to reciprocate… :D
            I love the U.K. and visit a couple of times every year.
            The only thing entierly false is that small, almost flippant remark about nutcase Bering Breivik. He was a member of Fremskrittspartiet (The Progress Party) for a few years, but found them mealy mouthed and weak… The author tries to be funny. He nails some of our weaknesses, but basically he just tries to make a living selling his book. So no, I don’t think most Scandinavians are particularly insulted. If someone is really short shrifted it’s the Finns. They are not drunk trolls from the north pole.
            Come visit. See for yourself! :D

      • Jennifer Starr

        Yeah, we can pretty much tell that you don’t actually know anything about Europe.

      • Kathrine Kristiansen-Olsen

        Eh… Scandinavia is actually a part of Europe… But it feels a little silly rebutting an “Guest”, so there. Have a lovely day – or in Norwegian; Ha en fin dag! :D

        • expect_resistance

          Yeah, I wanted to beat my head into my desk after reading that one. Some people are clueless about geography.

          You too!

  • Chaosfeminist

    This would be funny if it wasn’t so terrifying. Shall I wear a burka as well? Would it please these people if I quit my job to have 19 kids? Oh wait- someone’s going to have to
    support them since I don’t have a job anymore. I can’t go on welfare though, so I must find an independently wealthy Republican man to support me. Sure hope my husband doesn’t have a problem with that. Wait- polyandry isn’t legal, just polygamy. Maybe my husband will have a sex change. I’ll go ask him now.

  • Pammila Allen

    I am having trouble with the weird messaging style of this page… there is a bigger picture here people are not even noticing. They are playing a slight of hand, they incense the religious poor in the party to help the rich to gain control of government.

    They keep trying to kill unemployment, welfare, wic, free lunch, pell grants, charities, medicare, medicaid, mental health & rehabilitation services… and so on.

    They are also trying to deregulate important government programs that protect consumers like the EPA, IRS, SSA, FDIC, FDA… these programs that protect food, drug, fair finance, ability to save money to retirement, also affect medical health care… all these companies that protect us.

    The most important thing a consumer has is themselves, they are their best asset, if they loose that then it affects all of their other assets like house, car, and…most important is stability.

    Once they financially harm the consumers, it is like a domino affect, It is the gift that keeps on giving. They rather not have well established consumers, they want consumers in default. Once you can’t pay your bills you start having increased expenses like late fees, over the limit fees, collection fees, legal fees. What started out as a $300 debt can in a few years grow to $5,000 dollars. You multiply that across all of your creditors and that is a lot of money to be made by the collection industry.

    Resulting from this – the credit reporting agencies get to keep a long term negative record. Preventing consumers from establishing good credit for long periods of time. This also benefits new creditors being able to collect one time application fees, maintenance fees, deposits, higher interest rates… the true lobbyists to fear is the finance and collection industry. If you multiply the profits to be made from high interest over years it goes up into the 10’s of thousands to be earned.

    All because they were able to secure the votes of the poor religious groups by provoking them on religious issues, then once they gain power they can use it to destroy financial stability. They can earn much more money from financially devastated populations then from financially stable populations.

    Why else do you think the stock market has doubled and the middle and lower class has not been able to recover!!!

    • HeilMary1

      The American corporate billionaire backers of Hitler got away with the same disaster capitalism exposed by Naomi Klein. And the pedophile priests have a field day raping all the starving homeless forced-birth orphans. It’s a win-win for Nazi Wall Street thieves and holy pedophiles!

      • Pammila Allen

        I use to work in the credit reporting field, talk to a lot of consumers in financial trouble, talk to a lot of creditors about how finance works, also learned a lot about credit reporting laws… it was not hard for me to see the pieces falling together. Pawns are being used and they don’t even know it. Women’s rights is “false flag” – these issues should not even be up for debate. This is our civil rights. We should have protection from this type of religious prosecution. We are suppose to be protected by separation of church and state. Problem is the enemy is more determined to strip our rights, then we are able to mobilize to stop them. We keep loosing ground, we need people able to file law suits and appeals to the Supreme Court… we need resolution on this matter to stop the constant discrimination against us.

    • wolfcat

      O.o *cuckoo*

  • Ella Warnock

    Just look at how many comments there are on this subject. Of course they’re pissed off about sex.

    • Defamate

      It’s because PrincessJasmine posted a link to this on Twitchy:P

      And one of her buddies came here to sockpuppet troll us..

      More info as you scroll through the comments

      And Calvin Godwin’d us for the second time today.

      • Ella Warnock

        Of course he did. He’s simply too unimaginative not to.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Also the ‘babykiller brigade’ ;)

          • Ella Warnock

            Again, unimaginative. ;-p

          • Ella Warnock

            I’m going to start a punk band named Baybeekiller Brigade.

          • Defamate

            There is a rock band here in Canada called Abortion Day-Glo

            I could have partied with them once, but I missed my chance because I am a boring girl and I went to sleep instead:P

            They partied across the hall from me all night long until like 4am, and I woke up with the worst headache evar. Rock stars.

          • Ella Warnock

            Gurl, you need to stop partaying and have some baybees.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Anyone remember The Dead Milkmen? They were popular when I was in Junior High.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, “Punk Rock Girl.”

            I really like the band name “Gay Witch Abortion” a local Minneapolis band.

          • goatini

            Bitchin’ Camaro!

      • Jennifer Starr

        I’m quite curious about who ‘Guest’ is–I clicked on the link briefly before he/she pressed delete and saw that it was someone with about 60 posts or so.

        • Defamate

          I am betting that it’s John Lind’s sockpuppet. But, I may be wrong so, take it with a grain of salt.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually that was my guess too, but as you said, we could be wrong.

          • Defamate

            Life at LAN must be really boring. I guess that’s why they have to mess with us like this.

            They rarely leave their echo chamber – whereas we are all over other newspapers and blogs.

            Funny that.

            We also have more users than LAN, notice that? Many of our threads reach in the hundreds of comments, when their average thread is less than 100.

            Anyways, Helen Kistler is still responding to your old nick on MOJO:P

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh goodness–Helen’s still at it–somehow I’m not surprised. Yeah, they tend to stay at LAN or other like-minded sites–for all their rants about how cowardly we supposedly are, they hardly ever come over here.

          • Defamate

            And I think we have solved the mystery of who has been downvoting us:P

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yep, I do believe we have ;)

      • Ella Warnock

        What is she,like, five years old? Her reasoning skills aren’t any older than that, that’s for sure.

        • Defamate

          I am betting that she is a teen mom (or at least young adult) who is stuck in a perpetual fantasy world.

  • mamiel

    I cannot even tell you how many times commenters on abortion related articles say that women should “Keep their legs shut”. Pro-life commenters never, ever, issue directives about how men should conduct themselves sexually though. I mean literally never. I’ve spent stupid. endless hours arguing with “lifers” online and have yet to see one make a suggestion about how men should behave sexually. But they feel entirely comfortable issuing orders on acceptable female sexual behavior (which is, don’t do it)

    • Liora51

      Nor do they EVER talk about the only moral abortions–those being theirs. See the essay.

      “The only moral abortion is MY abortion” by Joyce Arthur

      • wolfcat

        I’ve never had one… Strange that every person alive screaming for legal abortions in no way objects to having been allowed to be born…

        • Jennifer Starr

          Yeah, I used to think that was a brilliant argument against abortion–when I was about 13. Then I grew up.

          • HeilMary1

            Me too! — back when I didn’t know about Catholic Munchausen by Proxy psychosis that would compel my anti-abortion family to keep abusing me.

          • wolfcat

            Orrrrr, you went brain dead. ;p You certainly have no logical argument against to refute mine because you would have used it already.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry, what was your logical argument again?

          • HeilMary1

            You’re too fetal-brained to understand grown-up talk.

        • HeilMary1

          Wish my abusive mom aborted me instead! And you’re whining about insurance companies now helping mothers like YOUR mother with their childbirth injury bills! Maybe she’s suffering from vaginal mesh implant injuries because of the mayhem your fat ungrateful fetal ass caused her!

          • wolfcat

            My mom does not have vaginal mesh. lmao. Some people actually talk to their mothers. Not all moms use insurance either.

            Interesting that you’d illogically jump to wishing you’d been aborted instead of wishing you’d been adopted. I don’t see you killing yourself either which means you clearly want to be alive more than dead.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not up to you to dictate how Mary should feel.

          • wolfcat

            Never did.

          • HeilMary1

            So your mother is wealthy and doesn’t need insurance to cover $20,000 to $5,000,000 childbirths? My married Catholic parents didn’t fit the profile of unfit parents, so there was no chance of a legal rescue for me. Abortion is better than abusing children, and adoption wouldn’t reverse the childbirth injuries that my crazy mom suffered.

          • wolfcat

            You don’t have to be wealthy to cover childbirth costs any more than you need to be wealthy to adopt or hire a surrogate or use protection.

            Being dead is better than being alive and experiencing suffering which every living being experiences at some point? So, that’s a legitimate excuse for killing anyone who is suffering for any reason in the world? No, it’s not logical at all.

          • HeilMary1

            So all low-income women are secret millionaires who can afford 5 million dollar infected c-sections?
            The rest of your pompous blather makes no sense, home-skooler.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Childbirth can go up to five figures. So can IVF. Adoption can even go up into the six figures range, and so can hiring a surrogate. Maybe in your world that’s just a drop in the bucket– most people can’t just pull that amount of money at a moment’s notice. Gee, it must be lovely to be that privileged. You have absolutely no idea of anything in the real world, do you?

          • expect_resistance

            This “You don’t have to be wealthy to cover childbirth costs any more than you need to be wealthy to adopt or hire a surrogate or use protection” is complete bull.

          • maryinbama

            The average cost for an uncomplicated birth in the USA is between $15,000-20,000. A c-section can run up to $70,000. So a woman with insurance (and not everyone has it), can look to pay $14,000 out of pocket for a c-section and between $3000-4000 for an uncomplicated birth. That does not include the fee for the ob/gyn.

        • Liora51

          Strange that the opponents of a woman’s right to her own body dance around the economic benefits of birth control and abortion–which are not the same. And the red herring of “not objecting to having been born” hasn’t changed my mind about this after 40, two natural children, years caring for my aged parents and hospice work. Having seen the continuum available for those “born” I find puerile positions like yours irrelevant to reality.

        • Liora51

          I never had one either and am long past the need for either birth control or abortions. But I know the economic benefits that come from managing one’s own reproduction. And so do my two adult children.

        • Ella Warnock

          Not strange at all.

        • maryinbama

          If I had not been born, I would not know it because I would not exist.

    • wolfcat

      Because pro abortion women always tell men that abortion is not their business…. right up until they decide to keep it and demand the men start giving them money. lol. Why direct anything at men in a conversation full of women?

      • mamiel

        You still conveniently overlook the fact in this very post that pregnancy happens between a union of male and female. If you are so concerned about men being hit up for child support why are you not appealing to men to alter their behaviors that cause pregnancy? And how can you call this a “conversation of women” when you are partaking of it? Duh

      • Jennifer Starr

        Unless you’re in the military, child-support enforcement is a joke. So no, I’m not going to shed a tear for ‘the poor menz’ who think that they can control a woman’s pregnancy just because they donated a bit of sperm.

        • wolfcat

          You must have missed all the laws allowing men to be thrown in prison, have their license taken, have their wages and tax returns confiscated, while also making it nearly impossible for a man to get custody of his own children. Do you live under a rock?

          Interestign that when you tell women to use birth control people whine about men not being addressed but when men are addressed they make comments about men not being part of it. Pro abortion anti men people are insane. lol. Let’s make it simple, DON”T GET KNOCKED UP if you don’t want a kid! Solved every problem. There would be no abortion debate if it were used solely in cases or rape or health problems. The issue is that most women getting abortions are too idiotic to avoid getting pregnant. It’s not difficult to manage.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, still not simple, not that black and white–nothing is. And sorry, but having to spend money is not in any way comparable to pregnancy and childbirth, and the fact that it was a man’s sperm, does not give him decision-making power over the pregnancy inside her body.

            I know a woman with a disabled son whose husband left her because he couldn’t handle having a disabled kid. Law enforcement doesn’t do squat for her. She has to find out where he lives and track him down just to get the courts to make him cough up a few hundred dollars for medical expenses. So you’ll forgive me if I don’t shed a tear.

          • HeilMary1

            I know several mothers like that too! Anti-choice columnist George Will dumped the mother of his DS son for a do-over trophy wife!

          • HeilMary1

            The issue is that you cheapskate playboys and pedophile priests go bonkers whenever the women you condom-haters knock-up expect you to pay your share. You can’t be anti-family planning and anti-child support at the same time. You can’t be “abstinence-only” WHILE BANGING EVERYONE!

  • Jerry S

    Why must feminists be so miserable?

    • Ella Warnock

      I dunno. I’m a happy feminist!

    • Defamate

      Chocolate faeries.

    • Jennifer Starr

      I’m happy, I got coffee and a breakfast sandwich :) Yay.

      • expect_resistance

        Yes, coffee…..mmmmmmmm I love coffee.

        • HeilMary1

          One of Mother Nature’s hundreds of delicious abortifacients! Who knew the antis were also in the chemical abortion business?

      • Liora51

        love bfst sandwiches with coffee. Love sex too.

    • expect_resistance

      Nope, not me, I’m happy an having a great day. What’s your excuse?

    • Horation_Tobias_HumpleDinK

      they aint. You just cant accept women existing without your cock being the master.

    • Defamate

      You and your ilk make me happy. Because you’re all morons with shitty arguments.

    • Pammila Allen

      Only misogynists make us unhappy – mind your own business and you would not have to contend with us.

    • P. McCoy

      I’m not miserable especially when I win at PLAYING b*ll busters on parade against misogynistic men.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      A woman saying yes to a date with a man is literally insane and ill-advised, and the whole species’ existence counts on them doing it. I don’t know how they…how do women still go out with guys, when you consider the fact that there is no greater threat to women than men? We’re the number one threat to women. Globally and historically, we’re the number one cause of injury and mayhem to women. We’re the worst thing that ever happens to them. That’s true! You know what our number one threat is? Heart disease.
      – Louis CK.

    • wolfcat

      Ugh, agreed. The old feminists were at least admirably fighting for something rational. Newer ones are a bit insane.

      • HeilMary1

        How insane of women to want to avoid FGM by FETUSES!

        • wolfcat

          Really? You’ll belittle serious FGM by comparing childbirth to it? Last I checked, babies do not take a sharp object to their mother’s clitoris nor do they sew her shut after to prevent her from ever enjoying sexual contact.

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer, vaginal deliveries cause vaginal, clitoral, bladder, bowel, and multiple other tissue shredding. The size of full term fetuses alone and their violent pushing CAUSES those tears. Why do you think c-sections, episiotomies and symphysiotomies are performed?? Such brutal injuries and repairs do permanently ruin sex and cause crippling injuries. Why do you think adult diapers are marketed to MOTHERS and why most anti-choice men trade in their brood mares?

  • PJParks

    It’s hard to ignore the special type of stupidity this woman is promoting. Like most liberal feminist she has no clue, just misery in her life.

    • HeilMary1

      You’re the misery addict/pusher.

    • expect_resistance

      Do you always talk about things you have no clue about?

      • PJParks

        You can do all of the screwing and aborting you like but If I am not doing the screwing I don’t understand why you feel I must pay for it. Buy your own damn pills and pay for your own damn mistakes. You say I have no right to be in your bloomers and I agree. I don’t want my money in there either. Grow up and learn to keep your knees together.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I see. So you do always talk about things that you have no clue about.

        • expect_resistance

          Oh, quit your babbling crabby old man. You know you can still have sex with your knees together. I’ve tried it doggy style.

          • HeilMary1

            LOL! — don’t give him ideas about his poor pets!

        • Ella Warnock

          Oh, dear, we’ve got an angry one here. Poor thing.

          • Horation_Tobias_HumpleDinK

            He is utterly Disgraceful and embarrassing to male kind, I apologies for such idiocy.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, you can’t apologize for everyone else. It’s all good. ;-)

        • Horation_Tobias_HumpleDinK

          LOL you pathetic and male embarrassing fool. You pretty much answered her point with your ending line of this comment. You arrogance’s stench is giant. You do grasp that pride is part of the 7 deadly sins?
          Also you cant prove abortion is murder, because if souls exist. God can recreate, put them anywhere and do what he wants with them- you cant say God cant do that. If God cant, whom usually is a he. When really should be a she or everything. Then God is not almighty. But as you clearly demonstrated, its all about your shamming of women that have sex with more than one partner.

          • PJParks

            Abortion is murder plain and simple. You can call it choice or whatever you feel that will not change the fact it is murder. Talk about pathetic. I guess you accept homosexuality as normal also. That is what is wrong with you people. You have lost your collective minds.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Regarding homosexuality, I have better things to do with my time than obsess over what consenting adults are doing in their own bedrooms. Perhaps you should find better things to do as well?

          • HeilMary1

            “He” should undergo medical gender testing to prove “he” is the “man” “he” claims “he” is.

          • Defamate

            Then what should the penalty be for women who murder pea sized embryos?

            Life in prison?

            30 years?

            Hanging?

          • HeilMary1

            And what about all the coffee abortions PJ served on his wife? He should arrest himself.

          • wolfcat

            Nope, just make it harder to do.

          • Defamate

            Do you consider abortion to be murder? You keep referring to embryos as ‘kids’ ?

          • wolfcat

            Murder is illegal killing. Killing is ending a life. A bit of a difference there. Genocide isn’t usually illegal either, just look at history. I never called embryos kids. I called them babies which they are if you look in a dictionary.
            According to Merriam-Webster:

            Baby – an extremely young child

            Child – a son or daughter of human parents
            – descendant
            – an unborn or recently born person

            It’s amazing when people argue without even having the most base clue as to what they are going on about. ;)

          • Ella Warnock

            Yes, it is amazing, isn’t it.

          • wolfcat

            Yup

          • HeilMary1

            Then why aren’t you trying to ban ABORTIFACIENT coffee, tea, colas, holy wine and tobacco consumed by your anti-choice female cronies?

          • wolfcat

            Everyone’s anti some choice or another otherwise we’d be opening prison doors and there would be no laws. It’s such an unrealistic term as is claiming to be pro choice. Accurately, it’s pro abortion and anti abortion because that is the discussion at hand. That being said, Most pregnant women do many of those things without miscarrying or aborting their children. lol. When was the last time anyone looked approvingly at a drinking or smoking mom?

          • HeilMary1

            Accurately, you are pro-choice for YOURSELF and anti-choice for EVERYONE ELSE.

          • HeilMary1

            I support jailing priests, husbands and antis like you whenever your coerced childbirths injure and murder women. Are you willing to do time for women’s childbirth injuries?

          • wolfcat

            So, you’re pro one choice, but you want to jail people to prevent them from having free speech or any choice? Talk about terrorism. Again, if women don’t want to be pregnant then they should not get pregnant. Simple. Most people support abortion in cases of rape or medical issues no matter which side of the fence they are on. Most people do not support abortion in cases of people who just decided not to prevent an unwanted child. About half of all pregnancies are unplanned. If they were all aborted we’d have the same issues Japan is currently having.

          • Jennifer Starr

            All contraception has failure rates, up to and including tubal ligation and vasectomies. So no, it’s not that simple.

          • wolfcat

            Very low failure rates. Much lower than not using anything at all…

          • fiona64

            Wow. Does your ignorance hurt you as much as it does the rest of the world?

          • HeilMary1

            You support criminalizing all contraception, sterilization and maternal life-saving abortions so that the U.S. will be as chaotic, unemployed, overpopulated and impoverished as Mexico and the Philippines. You are the reason why half of all pregnancies are unplanned and unwanted. And Japan needs to keep reducing its population to get off its population-poisoning nuclear power plants!

          • maryinbama

            Countries that have the more restrictive abortion laws have higher rates of abortion than countries with less restrictive laws. How about attempting to prevent it in the first place or make it so woman can afford to have those babies? How about conservatives get on board with free and accessible birth control, comprehensive sex education, universal health care and a living wage/minimum wage? If conservatives do this, then I will believe they care about babies. As long as they oppose these measures, then they really do not give a damn.

          • expect_resistance

            Wrong again. Abortion is not murder. Please get a grip on reality.

            BTW I’m pro LGBT rights. Hell yeah!

          • Mindy McIndy

            Thanks for your support. We really need as many straight allies as we can get.

          • Pammila Allen

            You are an insensitive ass, there are multiple purposes for using abortion services… some women actually want their pregnancy, but don’t know until it is too late that they suffer serious medical complications that won’t make a pregnancy viable. Such as – RH Factor, Asthma, Depression, Diabetes, Epilepsy, High Blood Pressure, Thyroid, Uterine Fibroid… sometimes a pregnancy can’t be saved if it risks the mothers health… and if you think she can just stick it out.. guess what she might just die before the baby could ever live out side of the uterus. So then you loose both the baby and the mother.

          • HeilMary1

            Bigot mother killer, childbirth grossly bankrupts, maims and often murders millions of women every year. And what about conceived intersexed gay fetuses? If you have an older sister, that would explain your XXY microchimerism Klinefelter Syndrome looks, meaning any sex you might have is technically same sex!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Okay, if you are not lying, you can provide me with a link to a case in which a woman was convicted of murder for having an abortion.
            I will wait. But I will not hold my breath because, like most forced birther perverts, YOU ARE A LIAR.

          • expect_resistance

            I can almost hear the scathing tone in their voice as they say, “you accept homosexuality as normal.”

          • Jennifer Jonsson

            I’m a lesbian and I’m pretty normal. I haven’t had any abortions, either, but I’ve had lots of hot sex with plenty of awesome women.

          • BJ Survivor

            Seriously, who has fewer abortions than gay men and lesbian women? If forced-birthers truly cared so much about preventing abortion, you’d think they’d applaud gays and lesbians for their life-affirming lifestyles, right?

          • wolfcat

            I’m anti abortion and completely support LGBT rights. Science and logic is where it’s at.

          • HeilMary1

            Science supports abortion, flat earther.

          • wolfcat

            In no way. Hmmm, considering I’m more of a mind with science, in what way would I be a flat earther? You with your uneducated stances about what I am would be more in the category of antifactual and antilogic. lol

          • HeilMary1

            Flat earther you is in denial about the legion of ugly, deadly injuries and diseases caused by pregnancies.

          • Defamate

            If you knew anything about science you wouldn’t keep quoting a dictionary as scientific ‘proof’

          • expect_resistance

            Earlier you contradicted yourself by saying you are pro-choice and anti choice at the same time which is not logical.

          • Pammila Allen

            My stint among religious groups taught me that some believe that if a child dies before loosing their innocents they can not be condemned to hell. They just wait until another host body is available. Sort of a reincarnation.

        • fiona64

          Oh, and here your fellow anti-choicers tried to claim that this was not about controlling women.

          Where’s your admonition to men to keep their johnsons in their pants?

        • Pammila Allen

          Darn can’t post links, but look it up, tax payer money does not go towards funding abortions. Check fact your information.

          Birth control is a pre-emptive service, it is a lot cheaper covering this then it is later for pregancy. It is a cost saving measure for the tax payers.

          • Defamate

            If you want to get a link past moderation post it but take out the dots.

          • Pammila Allen

            Was a government link… think they would not have to monitor them type of links. I will remember that. Thanks

          • Defamate

            Links are always put on moderation for new users. It’s a script.

          • Pammila Allen

            ah I knew that, just forgot, it has been a while since I have been in message forums. lol

        • Defamate

          Grow up and learn to keep your knees together.

          So you oppose abortion because women are s1uts?

          • PJParks

            Why should you need to have an abortion? Buy your own birth control and use it or don’t screw.

          • Defamate

            Answer my question. Do you oppose abortion because women are s1uts?

            yes or no?

          • expect_resistance

            Women already do bear mosts of the cost of birth control.

            “Even with employer-based coverage, women have higher out-of-pocket medical costs than men. Overall, women of reproductive age spend 68 percent more out of pocket than men on health care, in part because their reproductive health care needs require more frequent health care visits and are not always adequately covered by their insurance. Among women insured by employer-based plans, oral contraceptives alone account for one-third of their total out-of-pocket health care spending.” (Center for American Progress)

          • HeilMary1

            We already do pay DOUBLE AND TRIPLE for our disease-treating hormone pills because we’re also paying for YOUR Viagra pedophile sprees and obesity surgeries!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. I will have lots of hot sex. I will use my no copay prescription for birth control. Thank you Obama. If I get pregnant, I will give birth or abort as I see fit.

          • fiona64

            Yet another genius anti-choice male who is apparently unacquainted with the fact that all forms of contraception can and do fail.

            I’m not even surprised any more at the level of ignorance displayed by the anti-choice brigade … and that’s pretty sad.

          • PJParks

            Anti choice? Why don’t you chose to take responsibility for your choice to screw? You know the dangers right? Deal with it.

          • L-dan

            Man, why do I have to pay for these emergency responders that have to go rescue idiots who go hiking and run into trouble. Don’t they know the forest is dangerous? Can’t they be responsible for their own damn selves.

            And street accidents! I mean, everyone knows that large hunks of metal and rubber hurtling along at 55 mph are hella dangerous. And yet, I’m expected to pay for emergency responders running out to deal with other people’s mistakes for crying out loud. Don’t get me started on the overtime on New Year’s Eve, right?

          • PJParks

            I don’t want to pay for the idiots that go hiking in the mountains and a car crash is different than you not planing to take care of your own protection.

          • Defamate

            Every time you get in your car you are risking an accident.

          • HeilMary1

            No fault car insurance covers accidents just as insurance-covered reproductive services treat reproductive-related diseases and injuries. Would you buy a car without “sinful speed-promoting” seat belts and airbags? — contraceptives are the MATERNAL LIFE-SAVING seat belts and airbags of reproductive activity committed by YOU, jackass.

          • PJParks

            You are so funny with your inane analogies. The government does not pay for my auto insurance. I do. Get it? Do you need a picture for it? Pay for your own insurance. Don’t force it on me. Perhaps you can watch an episode of Barney & Company that explain self responsibility. It may be too difficult for you to understand but if you really concentrate you may understand it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I do pay for my own insurance, thank you. As do most of us here.

          • Dez

            He seems to think women do not work at all and never pay for insurance. He has a very low view of women.

          • Dez

            So women do not work at all and pay into their insurance? Is that really your argument?

          • HeilMary1

            He wants the insurance that WE WOMEN pay for to be WORTHLESS because he thinks we women are worthless.

          • HeilMary1

            Nazi mother killer, women PAY FOR their own health insurance as well. You just want to waste their money so that their self-funded insurance doesn’t cover WHAT THEY REALLY NEED IT FOR. Would you want Christian Science insurance that didn’t cover any life-saving surgeries and prescriptions?

          • expect_resistance

            Coming from someone who still calls condoms “rubbers” that’s
            funny.

          • fiona64

            Hey, dummy? Every woman here is employed and paying for her insurance. You aren’t our employer (I don’t think fry cooks at Mcdonald’s employ too many people …), so you are not involved in our medical insurance at all.

            How about if you do something miraculous and STFU? Anti-choice males are a joke.

          • PJParks

            You mean non-reproductive services? AKA murder?

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer you would oppose virus-killing vaccinations if the pope expanded “respect for life” tyranny to include viral life as well.

          • fiona64

            Your stupidity and histrionics are duly noted.

          • PJParks

            So I should belt you in?

          • HeilMary1

            You support child-raping priests and their anti-condom bonfires.

          • Ella Warnock

            Jaysus, I know, right? Pay for your owning fucking chemo already, bitches.

          • Ella Warnock

            Pro-life men shouldn’t screw pro-choice women. The only one who can make sure you stay away from abortion is . . . you.

          • PJParks

            Pro life men should use rubbers that THEY BOUGHT themselves.

          • Ella Warnock

            Exactly so. Pro-life men must take responsibility for themselves.

          • HeilMary1

            You mother killers are trying to criminalize condoms.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes condoms are important. It’s also helpful if you use a spermicide
            with it and know how to use a condom properly. One can practice by using a two-liter pop bottle and put the condom over that.

          • fiona64

            Anti-choice men should know that condoms have a 24 percent failure rate, regardless of who pays for them.

          • HeilMary1

            I hope your current wife, mistresses, daughters, mother and sisters excommunicate your mother-killing ass from their ruined lives. And if any of your kids caused their mother injuries during childbirth, your ass with its sex-offending penis should be in jail! Time to start jailing you mother killers for all childbirth injuries and deaths! Fair is fair.

          • fiona64

            Hey, dummy? Guess what? I’m a middle-aged, monogamous married woman with a 27-year-old son (after a life-threatening pregnancy) and a 21-year-old tubal ligation. Since I know that all forms of contraception, including surgical sterilization, have known failure rates, I have a plan. Should that surgical sterilization fail, there will be an abortion so fast that your moronic head will spin right off.

            Deal with it.

          • PJParks

            I just don’t get why I should have to pay for your poor choice in life and living.

          • Defamate

            poor choice in being born female, you mean

          • PJParks

            No. Poor choice in who you decide to screw with out protection and then you want me to pay for your poor choice and you involve me with murder. Take responsibility for your choices on this planet. Own your responsibility like you claim to own you body.

          • Defamate

            No one is asking you to pay for abortions. In fact, it’s illegal. The Hyde Amendment.

            Why are you so angwy? You are such an angwy angwy widdle man?

          • expect_resistance

            I can’t stop laughing at this guy. And then you add on the “angwy” I’m about ready to pee my pants laughing. :)))))

          • HeilMary1

            Did the first Mrs. Gingriches, Hydes, McCains, Hudsons, Bushes, Reagans, etc. know that their husbands were looksist wife-dumping cheaters?? Do Catholic mothers know their marriages will be annulled for childbirth incontinence so their disgusted husbands can start over with BC pill-popping babysitters? Are faithful NFP mothers at fault for not knowing their “abstinence-loving” husbands have boyfriends? Don’t blame us women for your well-kept secret sex scandals! I’ll bet you’ve been arrested in other cities for hooker trolling.

          • fiona64

            I’m beginning to understand your problem, PJ … no women are willing to date you (not that this is a surprise), and you’re mad at all of us as a result.

            I suggest improved personal hygiene, a course in etiquette/manners, and (this will be the hard part for you, I know) treating women as actual human beings. I suspect that all three of these things will have a net positive result in your personal life.

          • Ella Warnock

            I suspected the same. He hasn’t gotten any in years, and he’s pissed about it.

          • expect_resistance

            Yep.

          • BJ Survivor

            Thanks to the Hyde Amendment, women ALWAYS pay for their abortions out-of-pocket. So, since you have no skin in this game, you may kindly butt out.

          • HeilMary1

            And being maimed by PJ by giving birth to his ungrateful ass. PJ wants all men to get away with trashing all women’s lady parts, then sticking all women with their womb-service clean-up bills.

          • expect_resistance

            Because you’re not paying for it.

          • fiona64

            I just don’t get why your stupidity is not as painful for you as it is for everyone around you.

            You need to learn not to make asinine assumptions, sweetie.

          • PJParks

            Both parties using birth control? That would be about as likely as getting hit by a bolt of lightning.

          • Dez

            Yea it happens. It happened to my husband and I. Is your world that black and white?

          • HeilMary1

            You just want women to die in their twenties from deadly non-stop pregnancies like they did back in “the good old days”.

          • fiona64

            You really are not too well informed on these matters, are you? Let me help. http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/contraception.htm

            You’re welcome.

          • BJ Survivor

            Another term I like to use in reference to them is “forced-birth idiot brigade,” for reasons which should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

        • HeilMary1

          Quit raping orphan girls in Manila and Mexico. Quit donating to pedophile priests so they can j