Study: Viewing an Ultrasound Does Not Dissuade Women From Abortion


With various states passing mandatory ultrasounds and crisis pregnancy centers focusing more of their efforts on getting ultrasound machines, it’s important to ask: Do ultrasounds even work the way that anti-choicers claim? The whole justification for mandatory ultrasounds is the claim that women who get them will be so overcome with excitement at seeing the embryo in their uterus that they will leap up and say, “Why didn’t anyone tell me that I was going to have a baby? Well, I’m definitely not getting that abortion now!” Indeed, so sure are anti-choicers that the shock of discovering that there’s an embryo in there will jolt women out of the abortion decision that one anti-choice activist said 90 percent of women seeking abortions change their mind upon seeing the ultrasound.

Pro-choice experts immediately knew that claim was a lie, because, unlike most people out there, we know that abortion providers often already make viewing the ultrasound available to patients, and they aren’t reporting 90 percent of their abortions being cancelled. But, as Katy Waldman at Slate reports, researchers decided to go ahead and do a thorough, scientific examination of the question. Published in the journal Obstetrics & Gynecology, the study looked at a whopping 15,575 women coming in for abortion. All received an ultrasound and were offered a chance to look at it. Forty-two percent did.

The results are pretty hard to refute: Looking at the ultrasound does not cause a crisis of conscience for women seeking abortion. Of the group that didn’t look, 99 percent went ahead and terminated. But of the group that did look, 98.4 percent terminated. The difference between the groups was less than a percentage point, totaling about 17 women out of over 15,000. More importantly, as Waldman notes, the women who changed their minds came strictly from the group of women who were unsure about their abortions going in. Women who were highly certain they wanted an abortion were not swayed at all by the ultrasound.

There are a lot of important lessons to be learned from this, with the most important being that mandatory ultrasounds are basically useless as a persuasion tool. Not that we can expect anti-choicers to apologize and repeal the laws forcing women to get them. They may say that it’s because they’re trying to give women full information, but in reality it’s just to add more expense and hassle to getting an abortion, so it’s likely the laws will stay. But it will be much harder now for anti-choicers to argue with a straight face that the law is well-meaning.

Another important lesson is that the problem with ultrasounds is not that they are done or that they are shown to women. Many pro-choicers—myself included—believe the doctors should give women the choice to view an ultrasound. In the extremely rare case that changes a mind, then good! Women should not be doing things they don’t want to do. Honestly, I’d be shocked if any pro-choicers disagreed.

Indeed, as this study shows, contrary to what anti-choicers would have you believe, letting women look at ultrasounds if they want is common practice in abortion clinics. Anti-choice activists behind these laws are hoping the existence of this law leads you to believe that abortion doctors are deliberately concealing the facts of pregnancy from their patients, presumably out of some fear that patients won’t get abortions if they know what’s really going on in there. The truth couldn’t be further from the myth. Most abortion providers have no interest in deceiving anyone or performing more abortions than patients demand. (Really, with clinic closures being such a problem, many abortion providers are in danger of having more demand than they can meet.) They are there to make sure the patient has the reproductive health outcomes she wants. If that means she needs more information to make her decision, then most doctors are happy to give it.

The problem with mandatory ultrasounds is the mandatory part. As these results show, no one is really surprised by what’s inside the uterus when getting an abortion. (Or, if they are, it’s often because they’re surprised at how small the embryo is when anti-abortion propaganda led them to believe it would be much bigger.) Looking at an ultrasound can be a very good thing for a patient, if she wants it and if it’s handled responsibly. Mandatory ultrasounds are not only coercive, but the laws around them often make it so they are utterly irresponsible: Done without regard to a patient’s mental health needs, often accompanied by scripts that are as inaccurate as they are shaming, and forced to occur 24 hours or more prior to the abortion, drawing out what is already an expensive experience for many women.

Finally, an important takeaway from all this is, in a way, the most simple. It’s a reminder that women are not stupid. Mandatory ultrasounds are based on the sexist premise that the only reason women choose abortion is that they are simply too dim to know how to make a good decision and need lots and lots of hand-holding, more than you would even give to a small child. At the end of the day, the results of this study were predictable for the very simple reason that, in order for ultrasounds to work the way anti-choicers say they do, they would have to be giving women information they don’t already know. But of course they know what a pregnancy is and what it means. Their knowledge of this is why they’re seeking abortion. It’s not just that over 60 percent of women who get abortions are mothers already. It’s that women live in the world and we know what having a baby means physically, financially, socially, and emotionally. A woman who has an abortion knows that she is foreclosing the possibility of having this baby at this time, and she has, for her own reasons, decided that is for the best. To suggest she doesn’t know what she’s talking about is not only insulting to women, it has no basis whatsoever in the facts. Now we have a study to prove how true that is.

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  • terrimo

    As I am reading this article I am reminded of the talking points from our Administration on gun control when they state if there were more restrictions and rules which in turn would save 1 life, well then it would be worth it. I would say 17 lives saved is well worth the ultrasound.

    • HeilMary1

      Gun ownership is supposed to be about self-defense against criminal assailants. Background checks are about preventing gun purchases by violent people. Abortion is about women’s medical self-defense. We already have more than enough federal and state laws regulating abortion providers for patient safety. Fetal idolaters have made their goal clear: to keep all women in deadly incubating slavery for pedophile priests. If men could get pregnant and suffer bladder, bowel and penis injuries, abortions would be mandatory HOLY SACRAMENTS.

      • CJ99

        Those who oppose abortion & gun control are too often the same people. those people who insist they “need” a military assault rifle with teflon coated AP rounds in a 200 round drum magazine whilst living in a gated community.

        • L-dan

          Pretty much. As few restrictions as possible on weapons that are frequently used to kill actual people. Because the right to own a particular class of things is more important than public safety. (yes, I know it’s a way more complex debate that that…but that’s the gist of the extreme end of it that objects to even requiring as much education about gun safety as we require about cars for a driver’s license.)

          As many restrictions as possible on pregnant people exercising their legal right to bodily autonomy. Because the rights of potential people are more important than those of actual people.

    • BrocoliRose

      You might have missed the point. The 17 women who changed their minds were from the group of the unsure. Which means even some of the unsure went on with the procedure anyway – seeing the thing might even have steeled their resolution.

      On the other side, there were 15,000 other women, mostly sure or plain sure to get abortions, even if (barely) half of them accepted the echography.
      It means that it is a waste of time and energy and money to make echography mandatory for a woman who’s like “Take this thing out of my body. Now.”. It’s not going to force the baby upon them. It’s not going to “save” more lives.

      Because it is such a crucial matter, only the very very unsure could waver. All women know what they want for their life – it is time to take our decisions seriously.

      • terrimo

        Perhaps I did miss the point. I would only hope adoption would be considered more often than not.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting. It doesn’t do a thing for an unwanted pregnancy.

        • fiona64

          Adoption doesn’t solve the problem of an unwanted pregnancy.

          Furthermore, there are in excess of 100K kids awaiting adoption in the US alone. Those who wish to adopt really should get on the stick; there is no shortage of available children.

        • CJ99

          I was adopted into a fundamentalist lunatic fringe family. fucked up life I ended up with made being dead look comparitively easy.

          • HeilMary1

            My abusive birth parents made me wish I had been aborted instead.

        • colleen2

          women’s bodies are not baby factories. If you want to adopt a child there are about 100,000 + children waiting to be adopted out of foster care. Folks like you always ignore that when you urge women to gestate pregnancies when we cannot afford to properly care for or feed a child. And

        • Richard A. Tucker

          Tell that to all the orphans all over the globe numbering in millions who will grow to adulthood never knowing the love a real family. But hey, as long as you prevented an abortion, right. Who cares if yet another kid, unloved, who will not be nurtured is brought into a world that refuses to accept them. Why don’t you take responsibility for those children and messes you forced them to be born into because you’re intolerance for women to make their own choices brought that misery about?

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          No way. I would never give a born child up for adoption and hope for the best. That strikes me a profoundly irresponsible.

          Better to abort a fetus when it is not more than a clot. Someone as detached from human feelings as you might get the child.

        • RonPaul2012

          100k kids are stuck in the foster care system, never to be adopted. Many are routinely abused and raped.

          But you’re ok with that, right? As long as they get the gift of suffering?

    • Jennifer Starr

      It’s not the government’s job to put roadblocks and force unnecessary burdens on a woman seeking to have access to a legal medical procedure.

    • Amanda Marcotte

      Citation for the claim that the “administration” said that?

      • James Finnegan

        You demand citations, but you refused to post my comment wherein I pointed out the numerous flaws in your blog post, including your own citations.

        • Jennifer Starr

          You shouldn’t take it personally. Because we’ve had problems with spammers in the past, anything with a link goes immediately into moderation.

          • HeilMary1

            BTW, Freddy the liar troll is trolling me on Raw Story. He claims I got him kicked off here, but while I never flagged him here, I did on RS because he “re-posted” false comments by me and claimed I am a racist male named Brandon!

          • James Finnegan

            Trolling you? Don’t you mean to say he’s “discussion board raping” you?

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t you have a “baby” tampon funeral you should be attending? Or a pedophile priest defense fund raiser banquet?

          • RonPaul2012

            That is pretty funny.

          • expect_resistance

            We can spot an MRA troll from a mile away. I’ll clue you in on the equation. When we see a comment with “Amanda Marcotte + ad hominem attack + straw man argument + logic fails you” = clueless MRA troll.

          • Ivy Mike

            You can’t commit a very efficient rape with a wet, limp, short noodle, which is the sexual equivalent of your “arguments”.

            I find it endlessly amusing how you fanatics see yourselves as devastating debaters and intellects, whilst you worship imaginary beings and meticulously carry out made-up rituals.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep, still waiting for the “devastation.”

            Waiting . . . waiting . . .

          • RonPaul2012

            When you engage him in the future, do so nicely. You have some really good points to make HM, but it does get lost in the angry commentary at times. I know, I’ve done the same.

            So, prove him wrong and put on your pseud-intellect to impress:P

          • Ella Warnock

            I do like the “baby tampon” funeral line, though. Because, really. ;->

          • RonPaul2012

            The thing is, I think many people don’t ‘get’ HM because they haven’t been abused the way she has. They can’t even BEGIN to understand the resentment and anger. So, they criticize what they see.

          • Ella Warnock

            Exactly.

          • HeilMary1

            Their dismissive insults goad me into holding up verbal mirrors so they might see themselves. That is my intention with harsh words, but my aim often misses.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Correct. I know HM tells the truth. I am a sexual and physical abuse survivor. I totally get HM. I trust her. I believe her.

          • HeilMary1

            Somebody else probably deserves credit for that. I vaguely recall a pro-choicer raising that question years ago at hearing.

          • HeilMary1

            I have twisted around their “baby killing” name calling for effect, but I’m not sure people are getting it the way I intended. Self-editing is not my forte, which is why I’m just a poster and not a journalist.

          • RonPaul2012

            Freddy’s alright. In this case, he’s taking you too seriously, I guess.

            You make some really good points, and you know your stuff, it’s just that it gets lost amongst all of the insults. And I think he sees himself as some kind of ‘helper’ for the rest of us who need to improve our debate skills.

            Not that it really matters in the long run tho, does it? Let people do what they want…

          • HeilMary1

            He came across as a true believer clinic stalker, not a sympathetic snark trying to help. It’s hard to tell the difference and a possible waste of time. Glad you’re having fun with him on Raw Story, but if he had identified his purpose here as snark, he could have contributed instead of confounding.

          • RonPaul2012

            Agreed.

          • RonPaul2012

            The thing is, which he didn’t realise, is that the kind of person he was playing ALWAYS gets banned, because it’s so obnoxious.

          • HeilMary1

            He definitely hit my obnoxious buttons. I would have held back if I understood his game.

          • RonPaul2012

            Here’s the thing HM. We are dealing with a double standard. Anti-choicers are NEVER told by their own side ‘tone down the rhetoric’. They are allowed to go crazy and call us ‘baby killers’. No one tells them to ‘stop mis-representing pro-choicers’ etc etc. They have the full support of even the most moderate pro-lifers (generally speaking, they don’t get called out for bad behaviour on pro-life boards).

            Whereas we are 1) criticized by our own side for being mean to pro-lifers 2) criticized by pro-lifers for being mean to them

            It’s because pro-lifers have CLAIMED the moral high ground, through years and years of PROPAGANDA. The pro-choice side feels beholden to ‘put on it’s best face’ and ‘act mature’ in the face of all the insults. However, it doesn’t matter what we do, anti-choicers will always claim victimhood. It’s their strategy. The strategy of bullies.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I remember one time, giving a fairly mild reply to a woman who was talking about women who regret their abortions–something like “While I respect their feelings and understand their regret, that does not give them the right to take that choice from other women”–only to be told that I was ‘full of rage’ and ‘where did all my anger come from?’ To which my reply was something like “Huh?” :) It seems that sometimes, no matter what I say, I get slapped with the label of ‘angry shrieking feminist’.

          • RonPaul2012

            I think I remember that. It’s because the right has done a successful job of creating the evil straw-feminist who is out to murder baybeez and castrate men…

            The problem is, it doesn’t help that there exist ACTUAL shrieking feminists who don’t help either side. The thing is, any movement will attract people who are *bullies* and who crave *power*. Of course, those people give the rest of the movement, people like us, a bad name.

            Before coming to RHRC I used to hang out at FreeThoughtBlogs. The people there take themselves a little too seriously. Especially on Pharyngula. It’s a good site, with a lot of intelligent commenters, but they get a little too excited at times. They absolutely lost their minds one night when I said that I don’t care if people judge me as a dumbass because my grammar is bad. I know I’m not stupid, so if someone wants to attack me for bad grammar/spelling/failure to capitalize I know it doesn’t matter because I’m not an idiot. I was dogpiled, and accused of being a misogynist/ableist/piece of shit etc who didn’t care about anyone else!!!! And to go die in a fire! I explained, in vain, that I was referring to the fact that 1) I was speaking about video games in particular, where I don’t care if I sound like an idiot 2) I live in a log house without central heating. Frozen fingers = typos galore.

            This explanation would not satisfy them. Not one bit. ABLEIST!!! I got called every name in the book and finally ditched the site because I couldn’t believe that I could be abused over such a simple *misunderstanding*.

          • HeilMary1

            A cyber Wild West!

          • Jennifer Starr

            ((((((Hugs))))))) for what happened at Pharyngula–that is really unreasonable that they would be like that.

          • RonPaul2012
          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I got dissed there too.

          • Defamate

            It’s like a cult. Their brand of feminism is the *only* feminism that is allowed. And they viciously attack anyone who doesn’t kowtow to their needs. And they police words, and grammar! It’s absurd.

            I don’t care if someone uses the b word, or the c word…they are just words. Actions count, not language.

          • HeilMary1

            Me too for my mildest comments.

          • HeilMary1

            My PTSD has no patience for bullies.

          • Ella Warnock

            Same ol’ game. Try to make intelligent women who are able to make informed decisions based on research, experience, and personal observation doubt their competency to make those decisions without threat of fear or shame. Also known as “gaslighting.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, I flagged Freddy, mainly because his comments were trolling and completely off-topic.

          • James Finnegan

            I wouldn’t take anything from misandrist Marcotte personally. I get a few laughs out of it and from the silly, sycophantic comments posted here, but there’s nothing to take personally.

          • HeilMary1

            And I dismiss comments by fetal idolaters as looksist misogyny.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hey, buddy, I could’ve just let you continue grousing about ‘mean old Amanda took away my comment, wah!’ Instead I took the time to explain, very politely, why comments with links go into moderation. And you’re welcome.

    • fiona64

      Citation needed. Thanks in advance.

    • CJ99

      Whats the name of the fantasy world you live in where such drivel suddenly makes sense?

    • L-dan

      Except for the part where an ultrasound is a violation of one’s rights not to have invasive procedures carried out just because.

      I mean, we’d nab a lot more drug smugglers if we enacted mandatory body cavity checks at airports, I bet. It would be worth the gross violation of bodily autonomy of all travelers to catch them and save the lives of children who might be hooked on those drugs, right?

      I mean, I realize that you’ll likely agree to this since the forced birth crowd thinks it’s fine to harass people headed into Women’s Health Providers for mammograms, cancer screening, prenatal care, etc. just on the off chance that they’ll change the mind of one ‘abortion-minded’ patient with their harassment.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Actually, if you do that to men, they sue and win 2 milliion dollars.
        http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/2014/01/cops-are-scum-or-million-dollar-finger.html

        • L-dan

          That exact case was in the back of my mind since all of the reports I saw about it were strongly against this sort of violation. The lawsuits hadn’t yet wound to their conclusion though.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            This first lawsuit was settled for 1.8 million. More suits on the way.

    • CT14

      Actually, all those abortions also result in saved lives: those of the women who are unready or unwilling to be pregnant at that time. Their lives have value, you know.

      Not to mention 60% of abortions are by women who already have children, so they save the lives of children already here by keeping them out of poverty.

      Of the 40% of women without any children who choose abortion, most of them choose to have children late in life! when they are ready. So those future lives are saved by abortion, since they wouldn’t exist if it hadn’t happened.

      True story: I’ve never had an abortion, but my spouse was in a relationship where an unexpected pregnancy ended in abortion. I never would have dated him had he had a child, much less had he married the ex. Our three children would not exist. Abortion of 1 unwanted fetus saved 3 lives.

      • James Finnegan

        The degree to which you resort to straw men and contorting language and logic to claim that abortion “saves lives” demonstrates that your position is a losing proposition.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Nope, not a single straw man in the statement above.

          • James Finnegan

            The silly claims about “saving lives” are straw men. I don’t know of any pro-lifers who ever use “saving lives” in such a ridiculous manner.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Explain what is ridiculous about it, precisely.

          • James Finnegan

            What is ridiculous about it is the claim that abortion “saves lives.” CT14′s claim that killing one person brought about about the lives of other persons. Just one of many problems with the claim is that it is implying a cause-and-effect relationship when there is none.

          • RonPaul2012

            Because, you pro-lifers make the mistake of insisting that *every zygote in existence must be born NAOW*.

            You fail to account for the fact that it is in fact healthier for people to have children when they are good and ready. This is what family planning is all about. It’s about having the right # of kids so that you can give them the best life possible. It is about spacing births, and not living in poverty so that you can raise your kids properly. Not having too many to feed and being unable to give them the life that they deserve. Life for it’s own sake is pointless. I, like many of the others here, believe in quality of life, not quantity.

          • Ella Warnock

            Ron, Ron, Ron . . . sigh. Now, you KNOW that if we start allowing women to space children for the good of their families, or choose to not have them at all, or choose to parent AND work at the same time — can’t you just see the societal apocalypse to come? Women might (and it pains me to say this) just start thinking they can live the lives that they want to live, rather than what conservative, patriarchal, authoritarian society wishes – eh, demands, really – that she live.

            We can’t have this, Ron. We just can’t.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And what about the claim that someone ‘might have aborted the person with the cure to cancer?’ Is that ridiculous? And abortion does save lives. My aunt and two cousins would not be here if she hadn’t been able to have an abortion for the pregnancy which had lodged in her fallopian tube.

          • Amanda Kazarian

            For people like me, unwanted pregnancy could lead to suicidal tendencies. And I’m sure I’m not the only one who struggles with depression. Way to throw out the baby with the bath water there.

          • HeilMary1

            Actually, pro-liars would save the blessed bath water because it might contain blastocysts, but throw away mothers and already born babies.

          • HeilMary1

            You fetal idolaters do insist women are throw-away incubators for your precious pedophile priests.

          • James Finnegan

            You really have some serious issues.

          • HeilMary1

            My childbirth-ruined mom burned all my skin off as her permanent abstinence excuse and I know/knew many women gruesomely injured/murdered by childbirth complications. You’re the one promoting forced deadly breeding.

        • RonPaul2012

          So women don’t die from pregnancy, like, ever?

          • James Finnegan

            Reread the silly post by “CT14″. It did not say anything about women dying from pregnancy. Marginal attempt at a red herring by you. It’s great to see pro-choice types desperately grabbing at straws. You’re losing, big time.

          • RonPaul2012

            So you would prefer that ct14′s current kids did not exist? All because you love that one precious embryo?

          • James Finnegan

            More changing the subject. Thanks for reminding me why I rarely visit sites like this one. Twisting language and straw men are mostly what I am finding here.

          • Jennifer Starr

            My guess is that you don’t frequent these boards because you’re not very good at explaining or defending your point of view. You don’t even seem to understand what a straw man is.

          • James Finnegan

            I know what a straw man is. It’s a shame that you have to resort to ad hominem attacks when you’re viewpoint is being beaten silly.

          • RonPaul2012

            Then explain precisely how it is a strawman. You just can’t proclaim that it is without evidence. Show, through logic, how it’s a strawman.

            We are patient. So far you have done nothing BUT make assertions without evidence.

          • James Finnegan

            When Marcotte cleans up her ridiculous commentary, I’ll think about commenting further on straw men. Poor Marcotte is an intellectual coward; that’s why she didn’t dare to post my detailed comment.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re just livid that reproductive justice leaves some priests without children’s behinds!

          • Ella Warnock

            You’re just going to complain that you can’t address your own assertion because, well, AMANDA MARCOTTE!

            The really effective flounces are the ones where you stomp angrily out the door and slam it behind you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You seem to have more of a grudge against Amanda than anything of actual substance to say on this board.

          • expect_resistance

            That’s fore sure. For some strange reason the MRA trolls hate Amanda Marcotte.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’ve already explained why your comment didn’t show up.

          • HeilMary1

            You have no defense, Father Scarecrow.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That wasn’t an ad-hominem attack. And you’ve failed to ‘beat my viewpoint silly’.

          • lady_black

            A straw man fallacy is misrepresenting the opponent’s position, then knocking the misrepresentation down. I haven’t seen anyone misrepresent what you have said.

          • HeilMary1

            Murderous misogyny is what you’re pushing.

          • James Finnegan

            Murderous misogyny, huh? Because I dare to question the nonsense posted by Marcotte and her cronies? Do your parents know you are posting on this site?

          • HeilMary1

            My abusive Catholic mom died years ago and her cheating, abuse-enabling racist husband is probably dead too. Since they criminally abused me, it is my human duty to warn the public about the domestic abuse suffered by children in anti-abortion cult families.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do your parents know, James?

          • Ella Warnock

            Now, here’s the REAL question of the day.

          • RonPaul2012

            No twisting is going on. And just because you say it is doesn’t make it so.

            You are saying, unequivocally, that abortion doesn’t save lives, because you mourn the loss of that one embryo so many years ago. Three children exist now, who would NOT exist, had that one embryo not been aborted back in the day.

            So clearly ,you are saying that you prefer the one embryo over the three children who are alive today.

          • James Finnegan

            I didn’t say unequivocally that abortion doesn’t save lives. I said the way that one of the comments used “save lives” is ridiculous.

            Clearly I am saying that CT14′s claim to having “saved lives” is absurd. Like most feminist, logic eludes you.

          • RonPaul2012

            It’s clear what she meant. Read the subtext, instead of whining about the *literal* meaning.

          • HeilMary1

            You misogynists hate it when smart feminists save their health and families at the same time!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Logic appears to be eluding you completely. Just stating over and over that something is ‘ridiculous’ hardly constitutes a coherent argument.

          • expect_resistance

            Don’t flatter yourself.

          • HeilMary1

            But ALL pregnancies are deadly, disfiguring, divorce-causing, and bankrupting. 300,000 die every year and 40% suffer serious injuries.

          • James Finnegan

            No, all pregnancies are not deadly, disfiguring, divorce-causing, and bankrupting. Making up “facts” doesn’t do your side any good.

          • RonPaul2012

            Aw, but every pregnancy has the risk of death and disfigurement, that’s the thing. There is no such thing as a no risk pregnancy. At any moment, things can go terribly wrong. Even in a pregnancy that appears to be ‘healthy’.

          • James Finnegan

            And your sacred abortions are deadly in every single case.

          • RonPaul2012

            Tell us James, what degree of disability should a woman suffer to bring an embryo to term?

            blindness?

            osteoperosis?

            cancer?

            prolapsed uterus?

            vaginal and anal tearing?

            post partum depression and psychosis?

            diabetes?

            sepsis?

            multiple sclerosis?

            6-72 hours of intense pain followed by something the size of cantaloupe being shoved through an opening less than a quarter of the size?

            Any of the above, if inflicted on a person by something other than a fetus would be considered to be a violent *assault*.

            Why don’t you believe that women should have the right to protect themselves from permanent disability and even death?

          • Ella Warnock

            C’mon, RP. What is ANY of this against the sheer, unalloyed joy of birth and motherhood? It’s a baybee, fer chrissake!

          • RonPaul2012

            So Ella, if you delete a post, it later shows up as ‘Guest’ right?

          • Ella Warnock

            It do seem that way.

          • RonPaul2012

            Peace 1203 is STILL replying to me, talking about how I want to deny the disabled their identity by daring to suggest that maybe not every disabled child should be born and that maybe, just maybe, disability and disease should be cured!! OMG the horror!

          • Ella Warnock

            I don’t even remember it, but I guess it would have been before I was aware that it didn’t actually get deleted. FWIW, I think that’s kind of a low-rent way to handle it. Not deleting, just switching the ID to guest, I mean.

          • RonPaul2012

            I’m confused. I did something wrong?

          • Ella Warnock

            No! I just meant that on Disqus if you want to delete something, it should disappear, not pop back up has written by “guest.” Then you can write it over in the way you wanted it to be read, or forget about it.

          • RonPaul2012

            Disquis is Horribly coded, especially with how it ‘hides’ comments. I finally had to put email notifications on so I wouldn’t miss anything.

          • RonPaul2012

            Oh, I think I realize now. I’m a dumbass and don’t think before I type.

          • Ella Warnock

            Well, you can take comfort in the knowledge that your dumbassery ain’t got NOTHIN” on Jimmy Finnegan’s!

          • RonPaul2012

            So the guy I was complaining about last night, who said that the ‘bed was made’ for the ‘guest’ in regards to pregnancy (therefore, the potential of the healthy embryo to become a person must not be interfered with) just happens to have a degree in philosophy…hence all of the smarmy word games…check this out:

            “”Re: Slavery -
            1) Telling someone they may not get a medical procedure isn’t enslavement.Enslavement is forcing you to act against your will. This is prohibiting you from acting in a particular manner. If it’s slavery then so is making it illegal to buy heroin- and that’s considered a “victimless crime.” From my POV, this closer to banning honor killing.
            2) Even if I agreed that it were compelling action, ask yourself what made slavery such a great evil? It wasn’t compelling labor. That would apply to the draft. We haven’t used it in the U.S. in my lifetime, but there’s still lots of countries with compulsory military service.
            3) What was morally repugnant about slavery was that it treated human beings as mere property. That’s what you’re for and we’re against. “”

            ———

            1) Yes, it’s akin to honor killing because people who are honor killed are living inside someone’s body and assaulting them throughout that process?

            2) Really? Slavery was evil because it made people property? And since when was THAT decided. No, slavery/indentured servitude = forcing someone to labour on behalf of another (sometimes at great personal risk) without renumeration

            3) Uhm, telling a woman that she is obligated to gestate a fetus is basically saying ‘that fetus owns you for the entire time it is inside you’

            I, for one, am glad that I am only watching this, and not debating this guy, because he imagines himself as some sort of rhetorical assassin.

          • Ella Warnock

            “What was morally repugnant about slavery was that it treated human
            beings as mere property. That’s what you’re for and we’re against.”

            If a woman is gestating a WANTED pregnancy, then the fetus is indeed considered HER property, is it not? Once it’s born, it’s then considered the property of both the parents, is it not? Completely specious “property” argument. OF COURSE it’s someone’s property until it reaches majority age and is free the chart its own course. I don’t even know why we argue these things or how they ever end up being anything other than what they so clearly are.

          • RonPaul2012

            Yes, and I did ask him one question…he believes that it is unethical to interfere in the natural development of an embryo on it’s way to personhood..that to create something and then put it in harm’s way is an evil act, which is why every embryo must be born…his response:

            “”There’s nothing wrong with IVF in and of itself. The problem is that to have a higher success rate with implantation there’s an embryo screening process and surplus embryos are created so that a fraction will be used. That’s a choice, it’s not essential to the process. There are prolife couples who use IVF but don’t do this, which means that on average it takes longer and is more expensive.””

            ——————-

            See? It’s ok to create excess embryos and leave them to die, because you are not interfering with their right to be born! You are ONLY interfering with it if they are in a uterus. Funny how that works out eh?

          • Ella Warnock

            So, his basic argument is that you’ve gotta break a lot of eggs to make an omelet. Sigh. Jesus really did weep.

          • RonPaul2012

            Yeah, and then some bullshit about how all the embryos are screened, and the unhealthy ones are the ones that are left over anyways…

            Uh..not true. Since many women have in fact ‘adopted’ snowflake baybeez.

          • RonPaul2012

            And his opponent made the point that, compared to the draft, forced pregnancy is 1) unpaid 2) can last 18 years.

            I am guessing that you can figure out what the reply was to #2? YOU CAN GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION. Aw, but only 2% of women actually give the kid up for adoption, because even though they didn’t want it, they still feel love for it, and don’t want it to languish in a foster home or go to bad people. BUT BUT…that doesn’t MATTER. No one is FORCING her to keep it, therefore, you aren’t ACTUALLY negatively affecting her life and future now, are you?

            See, the problem is, many of the pro-life arguments rely on a reality that doesn’t exist, where every pregnancy is a minor inconvenience, where pregnant women can avoid losing their jobs/being kicked out of college/etc, and where they give up every child to a wonderful white middle class couple and everyone lives happily ever after!

            But, because what they say is TECHNICALLY true, and because in many cases they do have statistics on their side, they can appear to ‘win’ the arguments.

          • Ella Warnock

            As we’ve all pointed out ad nauseum many times, adoption is an alternative to parenting ONLY. Abortion is THE alternative to giving birth, PERIOD. There’s nothing wrong with either one. I, personally, will go with abortion because I want no part of the conditions that RonPaul and I have listed as severe, life-and-health-altering side effects.

          • Ella Warnock

            If you and only you can authorize an adoption of your kid, then isn’t that a transference of “property”? If it’s not yours to keep or give away, then how exactly does that adoption thing work again?

          • lady_black

            I often remind anti-choicers that THEY are on the side of the slavers. They wish to relegate pregnant women to the status of “state property.”

          • HeilMary1

            Ramen! — as the Pastafarians would say on Raw Story.

          • Ella Warnock

            By His al dente you will be healed!

          • HeilMary1

            LOL! — a Pastafarian rewrite of the Bible! Adam and Eve covered themselves with lasagna strips.

          • Ella Warnock

            Is marinara or bolognese sauce more biblical? Or alfredo? Imagine all the Crusades that could be fought! At least it would be delicious!

          • HeilMary1

            A messy pasta food fight instead of a deadly sword fight! Too bad religions don’t trade their swords for boxes of pasta and jars of sauce!

          • HeilMary1

            I’ll take a messy food fight over a bloody sword fight any day!

          • expect_resistance

            Right on.

            I get frustrated when I hear arguments like, “It’s natural for women to have babies…Your body is made to have children” It sounds so flippant to me, like it so easy to do. Like we can just pop out babies at will.

          • RonPaul2012

            Naturalistic fallacy. One of the posters over at Personhood USA is fond of accusing us of being misogynists because we are shitting all over a woman’s ‘natural capacity’ to have baybeez. And it can’t be analogous to slavery because fuck, women were MADE for it.

            Yeah, sounds rapey to me.

          • HeilMary1

            You’d consider abortion sacred too if a melon-sized fetus shredded your penis! I’ll bet there are sex scandals in your closet, mother killer.

          • Ella Warnock

            Your histrionics are duly noted.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Actually NO. A woman who has trouble conceiving may have 8 embryos already implanted in the uterine wall and the fertility specialist will selectively reduce (abort) 7 of those embryos so that one embryo can be safely born.

            Do not quit your day job. You know shitall about obstetrics and gynecology.

          • HeilMary1

            Pregnancy used to kill 20% of all women and remains the number one killer of women worldwide. Even with better health care here, 50% of American mothers suffer bladder and/or bowel incontinence, like my mom, as they age, hence our 50% divorce rate, especially among anti-choice playboys like Newt Gingrich, Randall Terry and Deal Hudson.

          • HeilMary1

            Check out Ella’s comment above and RonPaul’s Guardian link above.

          • Ella Warnock

            But, but, but . . . it’s a babybee, so it’s aaalll woooorth it in 3 . . 2 . . .

          • HeilMary1

            Imagine if those injuries were headline news and Oscar winning movie topics! — game over for the forced birthers and RCC control of the GOP!

          • Ella Warnock

            Prove it. Back that thang up, Jimmy.

          • Ivy Mike

            This from a guy whose entire religious dogma consists of made-up stories.

          • lady_black

            One out of three of my pregnancies was life-threatening. DEADLY. Not great odds if you ask me. One of my mother’s pregnancies was life-threatening. A lot of them are. Even if “healthy” most cause injuries that may take decades to show up. Your denial notwithstanding.

          • expect_resistance

            Let’s look at logic. CT14 is responding to Guest’s comment equating ultrasounds to gun control measures. In a nutshell, Guest is arguing that ultrasounds will prevent abortions. Hence, disagreeing with the study, and the title of the article, “Viewing an Ultrasound Does Not Dissuade Women From Abortion.”

            CT14 responded that the abortions are life saving. Women have bodily autonomy over a fetus. Women have agency over their bodies and they can decide to or not to carry a pregnancy to term. That decision can be life saving for many women who do not want to be pregnant. There is no need for an explanation from a woman as to why she wants to, or has had an abortion. Let’s just leave it at, it is life saving. You can call this a straw man fallacy all you want. You can defy logic all you want as well.

            Let’s just put it this way. An ultrasound will not change a woman’s mind when she has already carefully thought about and made her decision. The state is shameless in its false attempt at forcing women to undergo unnecessary medical procedures (vaginal ultrasound) before getting an abortion. It’s simply shamming and blaming of women by the state, an attack on women’s civil rights.

          • James Finnegan

            Seriously, CT14 claimed that abortion saves the lives of persons who haven’t even been conceived at the time of the abortion. One can argue that abortion saves lives of pregnant women. I disagree with that, especially when we are talking about modern Western societies. Nevertheless, despite

          • RonPaul2012

            . One can argue that abortion saves lives of pregnant women. I disagree
            with that, especially when we are talking about modern Western societies

            2 women die per day from pregnancy in the USA. And that number is rising. Many don’t lose their lives, but, they lose their futures, due to permanent disability as a result of the pregnancy, and many other considerations.

            And no, what you are saying is that people shouldn’t have kids when they are good and ready, because ALL that matters is that one embryo now. That even if a woman plans to have 5 kids in her 30s, if she gets pregnant at 15 then she better have that one kid!! What you are saying is that future conceptions have no value, because the current one is the most precious of all.

          • HeilMary1

            Maternal deaths are vastly under reported in the US and around the globe, especially since cancers and organ failures caused by pregnancies take years to kill mothers. Eric Prince’s first wife is a good example.

          • ldwendy

            “2 women die per day from pregnancy in the USA.”

            Do you have a source for this statistic?

          • Defamate

            The CDC

            Roughly 800 women die per year, and it’s going up.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If a woman is able to abort a pregnancy which is life-threatening and goes on to have healthy pregnancies after that, the abortion is what made it possible for those other babies to be born. And yes, even in modern western societies, pregnancy can still be life-threatening.

          • expect_resistance

            Once again, abortions are life saving. Being able to control one’s fertility and plan when to have children, to space pregnancies between children, or not to have children is life saving.

          • HeilMary1

            Your claim that every fertilized egg is a human being is absurd, given that 100% of such eggs are automatically aborted as women approach their mid-forties. If you believed your own crap, you’d be attending last rites and funerals for all icky bloody tampons!

          • fiona64

            Mr. Finnegan, I don’t know where you’re located, but the US is #50 in the developed world for maternal health. That means that women die of pregnancy-related complications in this country every single day. Maternal death is not a third-world problem, sir. It’s a first-world reality. I had a pregnancy complication that is frequently fatal, even nowadays (hyperemsis gravidarum). I took permanent steps to ensure that I would not get pregnant again, but tubal ligations can, and do, fail. Should that happen, you may rest assured that an abortion will happen so fast that your head would spin right off … because I will not put myself through that risk again.

          • Ella Warnock

            And in the event it was illegal, I’d bloody well travel wherever necessary. They actually think “laws” will prevent women of means making choices and acting upon them. Hey, antis, there are a whole world of women out there who have their private business taken care of privately – women who can avoid your “sidewalk counselors harassers” and your bullying hysteria. Good luck ever getting a handle on that.

          • lady_black

            Yeah… NO. She said no such thing.

          • colleen2

            James, the only reason you believe you are ‘winning’ is because you’re incomplete denial about the maternal mortality rate. It’s understandable. We understand that, for a guy like you, women aren’t really people anymore than cows are people.

          • HeilMary1

            Women are straw women!

          • expect_resistance

            Or die after birth from complications.

          • Ella Warnock

            It doesn’t matter if they do, is more the point. If biology = destiny, then dying in the nachurrrl state of childbirth is simply biology at work. No more significant to them than swatting a fly. Oh, wait, except for the martyrdom. They do tend to sanctify women who die in childbirth. “No greater love . . .” they proclaim, in hushed and tremulous voices. It’s like a spiritual orgasm for them.

        • expect_resistance

          It’s safer to have an abortion than to carry out a full pregnancy and give birth especially if a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant or has health problems that would cause great harm to her if she continued a pregnancy. So yes abortion can be life saving.

          • Ella Warnock

            Abortion is safer than a vaginal birth that could result in a 4th-degree perineal tear that shreds the fourchette, perineal skin, vaginal mucosa, muscles, anal sphincter, and rectal mucosa. It also frequently results in fecal matter exiting the vagina rather than the anus because it’s basically a structural free-all in there and waste is going out wherever it can with the least resistance.

            There are limited, somewhat inferior medical procedures used to attempt repair the mess; but success is iffy, at best, and while a woman might end up with a degree of pain or discomfort that she can ultimately learn to live with, it certainly isn’t the relatively (and I say that because it is SO fraught with design and practicality issues) well-running reproductive system it had been prior to childbirth.

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks for your medical description. This is what anti-choice men, priests in particular, lucky mothers, and home-schooled teens are completely clueless about. Childbirth itself is FGM by fetuses! Anti-choicers seem to believe the birth canal magically opens up wide enough like the Red Sea so all of Egypt’s Jewish slaves can pass through!

          • RonPaul2012

            Yes, and’ its more common than people realize:

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

            It’s just hidden because people don’t talk about it, out of shame. Even in the western world, it can be so damaging that women have to wear a colostomy bag for life.

          • HeilMary1

            My abusive mom suffered this to some degree. She mentioned such damage and this was partly her motivation for abuse. Such damage also probably causes post partum depression, but no one is linking the two. Hollywood should make movies on this to end the attacks on family planning and abortion. A docudrama on Mary Ware Dennett would be a good start. Catholics might demand the new pope change the rules.

          • HeilMary1

            This was what I was clumsily trying to explain to Freddy and Ella nailed it.

          • RonPaul2012

            Yeah. I is impressed. I am going to save that to notepad.

          • HeilMary1

            From your awesome link:

            “One study found that between 25 and 40% of patients will have a birth injury of some kind if you actually look for it.”

            Embarrassing obstetric incontinence is vastly under reported and probably a major cause of male adultery, abuse, and divorce, not to mention the Vatican’s thousand year ban on married priests.

          • ldwendy

            I’m a little confused here. What does the Vatican’s thousand year ban on married priests have to do with obstetric incontinence?

            Thanks!

          • expect_resistance

            Thanks for the post, but I’m feeling a little sick to my stomach now. I just hope the antis and forced birthers will read this too.

          • HeilMary1

            Imagine if pro-choice candidates forced the antis to discuss why such injuries are better than contraception and abortions. Imagine teen pregnancies ending over night because no teen wants those injuries. Imagine wife-dumping, gay-bashing GOPers being outed for divorcing their wives over such injuries.

          • Ella Warnock

            One can hope. :-/

          • Ella Warnock

            Sorry for the ick. As to whether or not they read it — I don’t imagine it would matter much at all. As far as they’re concerned, such things (even in our modern era of better maternal health care), are all part and parcel of their “biology=destiny” idolatry.

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks for the ick! It explains priests’ killer gynophobia, GOP divorces, post partum depression, and child abuse.

          • ldwendy

            Thanks! Can I quote you on this?

          • Defamate

            Idwendy, you should probably not be linking to RHRC articles on LAN to back up your position.

            They will just outright say that the site is biased, and dismiss it. Plus, it attracts trolls like James Finnegan here.

            If you want to link studies at LAN, try to link to the original study, from an *unbiased* source.

            Like this:

            http://www.medicaldaily.com/ultrasounds-fail-change-womens-minds-about-abortion-how-abortion-rights-are-mostly-same-41-years

        • fiona64

          And here’s the problem with your assertion: CT14 is referring to actual statistical data. It’s readily available at guttmacher dot org. The majority of women who have abortions are married with two more more children already, not partying youths. And furthermore, the majority of women who have abortions were using contraception that *failed.*

          So, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

        • lady_black

          An abortion saved my mother’s life. Nothing contorted about that.

    • Richard A. Tucker

      I find it amusing when anti-tax people like yourself don’t mind footing the bill for useless procedures and then make asinine comparisons to better guns regulations as if there is a correlation. If you were really pro-life YOU would BAN guns and the “military solution” outright. You won’t so you’re not really pro-life. You are pro-government telling people what to do as long as it’s what you’ve been taught to believe.

      • fiona64

        There is no tax bill for these unnecessary procedures; the women themselves are expected to foot the bill. It’s just one more barrier to care.

    • sharoncullars

      please come back “guest” and answer all the replies below. otherwise we’ll think you’re a f*cking troll who comes here with little validation for the stupid arguments you advance. i’m tired of all these hit and run comments.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      There is a big difference between your VAGINA and MY GUN. Ask your Mom to give you “the talk.”

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      There is a big difference between your VAGINA and my gun. Ask your Mom to give you “the talk.” How did you arrive at adulthood without knowing “animal vegetable mineral game?” Or the “facts of life?” How neglectful is yomamma?

  • lady_black

    This law was NEVER MEANT to change minds. I think most women know what pregnant means. It was meant to make abortion more expensive and a bigger hassle. I’m sure if they could figure out a way to reasonably relate requiring a tire rotation and oil change, they’d probably require that too. Let’s be honest.

  • James Finnegan

    When you and your allies use the term “rape” so loosely, the serious crime of rape is taken less seriously. “Instrumental rape,” huh? That’s a new one.

    • HeilMary1

      I’d like to see invasive penile ultrasounds on all men before they get adultery spree Viagra prescriptions. Also Viagra should have 72 hour waiting periods, wife-, boss-, bishop-, parishioner, constituent-, and police-notification. Fair is fair.

      • James Finnegan

        Why do your kind always try to equate very dissimilar things. “Adultery spree” prescriptions? Your misandry is showing.

        • HeilMary1

          Because you holy mother killers have no problem with forcing all women to pay for the free Viagra abused by wife dumpers like Rush Limbaugh or pedophile priests who “vacation” in child sex tourism havens like the Dominican Republic, Bangkok and Manila.

        • expect_resistance

          And your misogyny is showing.

      • Carstonio

        As a man, I endorse your proposal without reservation. I read your “adultery spree” comment as tongue in cheek, an attempt to create a counterpart to the false claim that women seek the Pill only to have as much sex as possible.

    • expect_resistance

      No the term is not used “loosely.” When the state forces an unnecessary medical procedure which involves being vaginally probed by an ultrasound wand, that IS rape by the state.

    • Ivy Mike

      So, according to you, being forcibly, without consent, penetrated in the genitals with a ten-inch plastic tool does not constitute rape?

      Well, you do defend the Catholic Church, so I guess that figures…

    • fiona64

      When someone shoves an object up a woman’s vagina without her consent, that is rape. Often referred to in the courts as object rape, Mr. Finnegan … and no, it’s nothing new.

    • lady_black

      Jim. Jim. Jim. If I were to insert something, let’s just say a medical instrument (or a broom handle), up your backside… that you didn’t want there… wouldn’t you consider that rape? I would.

    • colleen2

      Oh please, the only time the religious right takes rape seriously is when they’re trying to demean and debase a woman or child reporting rape. Religious fundamentalists are the worst men in the world.

  • HeilMary1

    For Finnegan whose comment was deleted:

    Your “Knights” also did disgraceful treasonous fund raisers for Nazi genocider Andrija Artukovic so he could remain in California, even though our Justice Dept. was trying to deport him for war crimes! Artukovic bragged about gutting pregnant Serb Christian “heretics”, yanking out their “heretic” fetuses and dicing those fetuses as well! Artukovic and his Ustasha (Catholic Action) leader, Ante Pavelic, were funded by your mother-killing hero, Cardinal Montini aka Paul VI, even though Italian newspapers reported their gruesome massacres of Serb Orthodox Christians.

    No woman deserves bladder and bowel incontinence, multiple organ failures, autoimmune diseases, cancers, strokes, paralysis, sepsis, death, divorce and bankruptcy just so priests will have unlimited kids to molest.

    • expect_resistance

      Great post — Many applause!

      • James Finnegan

        Your standards are incredibly low.

        • expect_resistance

          Not as low as your misogynistic standards.

        • HeilMary1

          You’re in fascist denial of your criminal cult’s genocidal history. You must be a pedophile priest yourself, like disgraced Irreverend James. T. Burtchaell of Notre Dame.

          • James Finnegan

            Dd you take your Haldol today?

          • RonPaul2012

            At least she isn’t a 79 year old man who is obsessed with female reproductive parts.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, you have to wonder about these old men who are so obsessed with young women’s pregnancies.

          • Defamate

            Problem solved..a comment of mine was flagged on another part of the site,I had used uncouth language when trying to make a point, and a new moderator got the wrong idea and banned me. The RP2012 nick didn’t help!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Awesome:)

          • Defamate

            it was a comment to one ‘Linda Maxwell’ (sorry, dont have the link) on another part of the site. I am sure that this ‘Linda Maxwell’ is a professional troll working on behalf of the insurance industry. This person talks ONLY about how the ACA is evil, has a professional photo, and has a brand new account.

            Suspicious no?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, definitely sounds like a plant to me.

          • HeilMary1

            I don’t need psychotropics to blur out the ugly truth of your Nazi mother-killing, child-raping death cult. Have you taken your dementia pills today?

          • Defamate

            Problem solved..a comment of mine was flagged on another part of the site,I had used uncouth language when trying to make a point, and a new moderator got the wrong idea and banned me. The RP2012 nick didn’t help!!

          • expect_resistance

            Your comment is not witty or clever. Making fun if mental illness IS NOT ok. You are an oppressive mean-spirited man. Go away!

          • fiona64

            Flagged for ad hominem.

        • colleen2

          We do not take our ‘moral’ instruction from pedophiles or vote Republican so they are much higher than yours.

          • James Finnegan

            No, “colleen2,” you’re simply one of this moronic site’s mindless toadies.

          • RonPaul2012

            You have yet to offer a compelling argument Jimbo. Before you start lecturing people on ‘mindlessness’ try typing something of substance why dontcha?

          • James Finnegan

            RonPaul2012, I have offered a compelling argument. Ask Amanda Marcotte why she did not post it. I dismantled Amanda’s claims about the study. You can ask her why she didn’t post it. I can tell you why: she’s an intellectual coward.

          • RonPaul2012

            Retype it to me. I will get it in my email per disqus notifications.

          • James Finnegan

            Nice try. Get Marcotte to type it to you. Let’s see if she’s honest enough to do it. E-mail her and ask her to send it to you.

          • RonPaul2012

            Here’s the thing Jimbo. I know that you’re lying. Because if your posts were going into moderation I would know. But they aren’t. If Amanda was really interested in censoring you, you would be on permanent moderation like some people. Except you’re not.

            You lose.

          • RonPaul2012

            And your comments right now are NOT under moderation. I see them instantly. So put your money where your mouth is and make those compelling argument, sweetiepie.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Goodness, you are such a whiner.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the only intellectual and human rights coward here: you completely ignore the grisly, deadly injuries of forced pregnancies that your misogyny cult has imposed on billions of women over the centuries.

          • colleen2

            Again, at least I do not vote for Republicans or insist that others suffer and die for a set of beliefs invented by sick men.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re a criminal apologist for pedophile priest womb-trafficking.

    • James Finnegan

      The more times Marcotte and her cronies delete my comments, the more credibility they use. They are afraid to answer my points.

      As for you, “HeilMary1,” the only online pages I have found that contain both of the phrases “Knights of Columbus” and “Andrija Artukovic” appear on fringe or anti-Catholic sites. I have found no substantiation of your claims about fundraisers elsewhere. Of course, the documents may be offline, but somehow, I doubt they even exist.

      The rest of your comment is just anti-Catholic nonsense.

      • RonPaul2012

        anti-catholic being anything that dares to criticize the homophobic, misogynist doctrine of the catholic church

        • James Finnegan

          Hey, if you’re willing to accept Valerie Solanis and her bizarre ideas as representative of all of feminists, them I am willing to accept the few rogue priests who committed sexual abuse as representative of the whole Roman Catholic Church.

          • RonPaul2012

            I am not talking about pedophile priests.

            I am talking about RCC doctrine…which is racist, homophobic and misogynist

          • James Finnegan

            Duh! I was referring to the comment “HeilMary1″ about “priests.” In any event, the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church is not racist, homophobic, or misogynist.

          • James Finnegan

            Why did the cowards who run this site delete my comment about the ultrasound services the Knights of Columbus provide to pregnant women?

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, settle down. It didn’t go anywhere; I can see it. FWIW (not much).

          • Ella Warnock

            And if you’d like to talk about “cowardly” mods, let’s take a little stroll over to Lifesitenews, or Liveaction, or Jill Stanek, and take a gander at all of my posts. Oh, wait, we can’t do that, because they’ve banned me and delete ALL my comments!

            Your jibber-jabber may or may not last long, that’s true, but you’ve gotten a lot more play here than any of us get at the anti sites, so there ya go. What are they so afraid of, anyway?

          • fiona64

            Welcome to the club. Not once did i violate TOS … but they really don’t seem to like it when you post facts, figures and *reference links* so that people can see for themselves that Liar Rose et al are full of crap.

          • RonPaul2012

            Same here…

            I ran across a LAN user a whole year later, and he assured me that they ONLY ban you if you use naughty words, and that because I had been ‘disrespectful’ to posters on mommyish.com, then clearly I must have behaved the same way over at LAN!

          • HeilMary1

            Did you read Ella’s grisly description of commonplace but under reported childbirth injuries?

          • Ivy Mike

            Want some communion hosts with that whine?

            Your posts are here, Mr. Martyr.

          • lady_black

            Served up with a huge helping of lies, I’m sure. Are these ultrasounds read by doctors and performed by licensed ultrasound technicians? Otherwise, they’re pretty useless.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh please, no matter how polite I was and how much factual information I provided, I got thrown off LifeSiteNews. You are still here and posting, Perverino.

          • HeilMary1

            And by your standards, neither were the Catholic anti-abortion, anti-gay Nazis!

          • RonPaul2012

            Yeah?

            Is that why millions have died in Africa because the RCC forbade condom use?

            is that why women continue to die from pregnancy because cathoilc hospitals send miscarrying women home with an aspirin?

            is that why the RCC opposes gay rights?

          • Ella Warnock

            Gawd, RP, don’t you know what “loving” women looks like? Sheesh.

          • RonPaul2012

            I am talking with two pro-lifers right now, on two different boards, and neither of them will give me a straight answer as to how much prison time a woman should receive for murdering her unborn baby!!

            And they keep trying to get me to talk about abortions 30 weeks and up! And then they say ‘look at these abortion survivors, tell them you want them dead!!!?!eleventy”

          • Ella Warnock

            Must not be that much of a crime, then. Of course, if they really did think it was murder, they’d be burning down all the clinics AND finding out the ob/gyn’s who perform abortions and burn down their offices, wouldn’t they? Oh, and IVF clinics where thousands of “people” are frozen. If they really thought it was murder, they’d sacrifice their very lives, wouldn’t they, like their savior did?

          • RonPaul2012

            Well, I finally got an answer…

            A = murder of newborn
            B = murder of 8 week embryo

            The answer:

            A: I would say 30 years before she could be let out.
            B: Of course this is not a crime now. But it should be. I would say 5 years. The difference is because the child is not yet born, and could not live outside the womb at 2 months. 6 months? Ten years. Eight months? 25 years.

            ———————–

            Ohkaaaay. See the problem?

            He clearly does not believe that an 8 week embryo has the same moral value as a newborn. However, he does believe that it should have the *right* to subjugate a woman for 10 months. Well, if it isn’t equal to a newborn in moral value, then how can it be the equal of the woman? And if it isn’t the equal of the woman, then why should it have the *right* to use her body without consent?

            I mean, spotted owls are valuable. But we wouldn’t require that someone stay hooked up to one for 10 months as life support, let alone put them in jail for 5 years if they removed that life support!!

          • lady_black

            I would point out that even if it IS “the equal” of the woman, why should it have a right to use a woman’s body without her consent? You certainly can’t.

          • RonPaul2012

            Because she put it there by having criminally negligent sex (drew hymer)

            EDIT: but Personhood USA also opposes abortion in the case of rape sooooo, she put it there by being a fertile woman?

          • lady_black

            Yeah drew is a real jerk. He thinks women owe him something. I think they owe him something, too. But they aren’t necessarily the same thing.

          • Defamate

            He is SUCH a misogynist. He wrote this to me:

            Pregnancy is voluntary. Furthermore, it’s always clear who is the one who will get pregnant. It’s not as if the woman is surprised that it
            wasn’t the man who got pregnant. Given that, the pains you describe, the woman volunteers for by getting pregnant. There’s just no way around that fact.

            There is a way around it ! Abortion! But nooo…it’s your fault for being born female, live with it! If you get pregnant, too bad!

            BTW, since personhood USA would deny abortion even in the case of rape then why do they even make s1ut-shaming arguments at all?

          • lady_black

            His excuse in the case of rape is that the rapist put it there. But don’t punish the bayyyyybeeeeeeeee. No, instead punish the woman by forcing her to bear the seed of a felon. He wouldn’t know a coherent argument if one fell out of the sky, landed on his face and started to wriggle.

          • James Finnegan

            You disparage pro-life people who follow the rule of law. I suppose you disparage those on the fringes who take the law in your own hands. Lacking intellectual merit, you take inconsistent positions.

          • Ella Warnock

            I’m not the least bit inconsistent about what I would do about abortion, which IS legal, btw, as well as not something that’s a worry for me. So pay attention. Why aren’t you keyboard warriors using all legal means available against private ob/gyn’s and IVF clinics, in addition to PP clinics? Mifepristone is undoubtedly being illegally ordered and shipped hither and yon using the USPS. Why aren’t you going after that black market?

            It’s interesting that you should employ the word “consistency.” According to you, “murders” are being committed every day, yet here you sit lobbing your ineffectual bon mots at strangers on RH when you all could be banding together and rising up, presenting a united, unyielding movement that nothing this side of heaven could stand against.

            Sounds like you all have a lot of work to do. Better get off your duff and hop to it.

          • HeilMary1

            He could at least harass pro-liar women to cut out their “baby-killing” coffee chugging.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep, clean your own house, first.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Tell me, Jimmy, is it the ‘rule of law’ to stalk doctors and clinic workers and harass them at their private residences?

          • HeilMary1

            You are the patron saint of fickleness here.

          • colleen2

            I love how the ‘pro-life’ disability advocates never want to talk about Republican funding priorities. These are people so ‘pro-life’ they vote for men who compare the poor to stray animals and the silly creatures refuse to even address the issue. Apparently Republican disability advocates are JUST FINE with a society that tries to kill the poor after we are born.
            These are pitiful, hate filled people.

          • RonPaul2012

            Peace1203 is a self-righteous narcissist. Thanks for helping out over there. It’s annoying. She thinks she automatically has the moral high ground because she is disabled and therefore can speak for all disabled people on the planet.

          • colleen2

            Yes, well, Progo actually speaks for Republican disabled people with wealthy parents. All 10 of them. Isn’t that special.

          • RonPaul2012

            What is Progo?

            And yeah…how come you never hear about the miracle stories of disabled people born to families living below the poverty line? That’s because those unfortunate kids get sent to a group home where they spend their days soaking in their own excrement between beatings. (A nurse was talking about this on another site, very sad)

          • colleen2

            Progo is one of the handles used by a long time ‘pro-life’ Republican poster. She is burdened by a false sense of superiority and enjoys denigrating the women here.

          • RonPaul2012

            I wonder if that is peace1203? because she is on *permanent* moderation, so it has to be for a good reason..

          • HeilMary1

            In Canada, nuns trafficked them for deadly medical experiments.

          • L-dan

            It’s the same as their screed about how horrible sex selective abortions are. They don’t actually care about the welfare of baby girls or disabled children. So the idea of addressing the cultural problems that cause boys to be valued over girls, or cause parents to justifiably feel that they will not have enough support to handle raising a disabled child, is just silly.

            You’re supposed to handle everything god sends at you…in a fashion that they approve of.

          • RonPaul2012

            I was visiting a Christian pro-life site over at Patheos and the blogger said that she supports anything that will make it easier for women to avoid abortions. IE, a generous social safety net and so on. That people need to be more accepting of pregnancy and of babies. That people need to stop complaining when a baby is disruptive in church (yes, pro-lifers are irritated by crying babies).

            I think you can guess the reaction? She was accused of being a commie leftist scumbag by the Randian pro-lifers:P

          • L-dan

            This doesn’t surprise me. Any recommendations to reduce abortions other than ‘keep your legs closed’ tends to be viewed as moral degeneracy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What was the link?

          • RonPaul2012

            Probably the first, and last time, that I will ever find myself agreeing with a pro-lifer:

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/duffy/2014/01/pope-franciss-consistent-and-boldly-proclaimed-pro-life-message/

            Amazingly, she doesn’t come across as smug and self-righteous either!
            She’s about as rare as a unicorn!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I knew a real pro life person. She was articulate. She did no shaming/blaming. I had a lot of respect for her. One out of thousands of forced birther zealot thugs.

          • HeilMary1

            In my area, a young “devout Catholic” babysitter pulled the chair out from under a squalling toddler to make him shut up. When he cried even harder after hitting his head, she swung him by his feet to bash his head into hard objects. then covered his nose and mouth to smother him TO DEATH. She got 5 years for torturing and smothering him to death.

            Another fine example of pro-liar “love”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I remember that case. As someone who has worked as a part time nanny for over fifteen years, it made me feel physically ill to think that someone could do that to a child they were caring for. Just sick.

          • RonPaul2012

            According to secular pro-life (and they are really desperate now)

            1) FGM

            2) sex selective abortions

            Are both the fault of patriarchy. As is abortion, in general. So these patriarchal societies force FGM and sex selective abortions on women..and this is why patriarchy is so bad. True feminists will fight against FGM and abortion, and overthrow the patriarchy!

            I love how they have taken the talking points of *every* human rights movement, and desperately tried to apply it to abortion. Women who have abortions are like slaveowners. Women who have abortions are supporting teh patriarchy. Women who have abortions are misogynist. Women who have abortions are anti-humanist…and on and on. Women who have abortions are too stupid to know what’s good for them so they let men make their reproductive decisions for them (by forcing abortion).

            /headspin

          • HeilMary1

            I consider obstetric fistulas to be FGM committed by fetuses. Would love to get fetal idolaters to address such injuries.

          • Defamate

            Link from L-dan, whose posts with links, still go to moderation:

            http://groundedparents.com/2014/01/22/abortion_preemies/

            “”Because this is as good a place as any for the info. Definitely check
            out Grounded Parents for their Roe v. Wade anniversary articles. http://groundedparents.com/201… is a particularly useful one for the “if it’s born alive, what should be done?” crew.””

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes, religious authoritarians have very high standards – for you.

          • Defamate

            Thanks for that link! Great site, I re-pasted it after my comment so people could see, since your links always go to moderation:(

          • Defamate

            Because I live to torture you with all things biological in nature…here is another interesting article on what an organism is, and isn’t:

            http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2011/04/you-know-what-else-has-unique-human-dna-like-a-fertilized-egg/

            Some good commentary as well. There is so much to learn! And clearly, our ideas of what is alive/not alive an organism/not an organism etc are constantly evolving due to new information.

            Nature is not as black/white as many pro-lifers would prefer to believe.

          • L-dan

            Really, once you’re knee deep in the science, it’s hard to see why an embryo is super special.

            It’s been ages since I had much immunology, since it’s usually just a small blip in a biology program if you aren’t going to focus in that direction. I’m hoping to find space in an immunology class next quarter (otherwise I’ll see if I can snag something else in the microbiology series.) Reading genetics articles these days is a head trip because things have advanced so quickly that what I ‘knew’ is mostly out of date other than the basics.

          • RonPaul2012

            http://longship.ca/lupusinterrupted/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Jazz-Hands.jpg

            Woot! I was just accused of being a misogynist because I called an anti-abortion woman ‘sweetie’.

            This was after she had informed me that women who abort do it, 99% of the time, for selfish reasons!! And then she asked me why I hated DS babies, after which she complained to another person that I wanted to chop babies up

            Don’t you love forced birthers?

            Oh, she doesn’t have too much of a hard time with chemical abortion…but the chopping up really bothers her! Oh, and induced labour or c-section are *always* a safer and better alternative to abortion! And then she told me I was ignorant;)

            EDIT: And I have been told 5x today that Ron Paul is pro-life!!

            btw, next nick…tell me..

            RandPaul2016
            Christie2016

            whaddya think?

          • fiona64

            I still say you should go with “Defamate,” in honor of Helen Kistler.

          • RonPaul2012

            Yep. Haven’t forgotten about that one either.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I like defamate. It is genius.

          • lady_black

            I think you’re trying to argue with an unarmed person in a battle of wits, RP ;)

          • RonPaul2012

            The best thing? She kept talking *down* to people and taking on this smarmy condescending tone. I chased her off the board:)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Good. I hope you kicked her a couple of times too.

          • lady_black

            Yeah they are. BIG TIME.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes it is. Old men in dresses who castrated children for musical tones.
            Like my Zio Marco always said – Dey no playah da game, dey no make da rules.

          • HeilMary1

            In Holland, teens who reported pedophile priests also got castrated!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Never heard of Valerie Solanis. But I do know that there have been a lot more than just a few abusive priests. And it’s the fact that the church tried so hard to cover it up and shield these priests from secular law enforcement.

          • Ivy Mike

            You have no choice but to “accept” it. Not only did it happen, but it was worldwide-spread, actively hidden and covered up by the RCC, involved literally thousands of offenders (a “few”, LOL!), and even after it was uncovered, was still being “spun” by the Church and her toadies years later, to the point of actual defamation of the frickin’ VICTIMS.

            Based on this absolutely unforgiveable scandal alone, the RCC has zero standing or right to ever comment on moral or sexual issues again, and it is far from the only such scandal the RCC has been involved with.

            You are defending and protecting pigs, human animals whose actions and purported “morals” are universes apart. You are parroting the feeble defenses and apologistics of sexual perverts who got caught, and who desperately attempted to avoid any culpability.

            I have to assume that you approve of all the above. Are you proud of this?

          • James Finnegan

            You can assume whatever you want. You’re defending the killers of unborn children. Your assumptions are not important enough for me to care. You’re just part of Amanda’s little cult. Stay as uninformed as you like.

          • RonPaul2012

            oooo. Killers of unborn children. That sounds pretty evil, Jimbo.

            What should the penalty be for women who murder their unborn children? 30 years in prison? Life? Hung by the neck until dead? Lethal injection?

          • HeilMary1

            What about your Nazi Vatican that empowered never-excommunicated Hitler and the thousands of pro-Nazi clergy who aided in the arrest and execution of Jews, Serb Orthodox Christians, gays, feminists, unionists and the disabled?

          • lady_black

            That’s just the tip of the iceberg, Jimmy. The Catholics are mother-killers both in their theology and in their hospitals. Both treat women as mindless objects to house a fetus and give birth or die trying. Oh, except for when it benefits the hospital to claim a fetus isn’t a child when they are sued for neglect in causing the death of one. Well, mother-killer, it’s about to get very expensive to medically neglect pregnant women who are miscarrying. If it drives the Catholic “healthcare” system out of business, so much the better.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What is wrong with Valerie Solanas and the Scum Manifesto? I read it with joy when it first came out in paperback.

            Sweety, writing a book is not equivalent to raping babies and aiding and abetting babyrapers for years. Only perverts thinking having a low opinion of men is equal to kiddyrape.

      • expect_resistance

        We’ve answered your posts. The commenting policy is posted so don’t make assumptions about why your posts are deleted by the moderator. It’s their website they can do what they want. If you don’t like get your own website.

        • James Finnegan

          Amanda Mrcotte is an intellectual coward. She has her little troop of toadies here, in order to guarantee herself an echo chamber where she will not be challenged on the merits of her claims. If you want to be part of such a mindless enterprise, go ahead.

          • HeilMary1

            What about your echo chamber of pedophile priests and their Nazi fan clubs?

          • expect_resistance

            Is someone a little jealous of Ms. Marcotte?

      • HeilMary1

        “Wanted: The Search for Nazis in America,” by Howard Blum, documented the cases of several Nazis in America, including Artukovic. “Unholy Trinity,” by Mark Aarons and John Loftus, detailed the crimes of Artukovic and Pavelic. Catholic fascist CIA control of our media has kept Americans ignorant of Vatican collusion with the Nazis, but the dirt is well documented by British Intelligence and retired U.S. Army Intelligence officer William Gowen (who was interviewed in PBS’s recent “Elusive Justice” documentary).

      • Ivy Mike

        Tell me, does squawking about so-called “Anti-Catholic Bias ™” somehow make the fact that the crimes occurred go away, or does it just make you feel better about defending the indefensible?

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Do not make offensive comments and you will not be deleted.

  • http://www.friv2friv3friv4.com/ friv 2 friv 3 friv 4

    Pretty much. As few restrictions as possible on weapons that are
    frequently used to kill actual people. Because the right to own a
    particular class of things is more important than public safety. (yes, I
    know it’s a way more complex debate that that…

    • L-dan

      Maybe we could have a little speech that gun sellers are required to say before handing a gun to its new owner about safety, responsibility, and a long list of grisly gun death statistics? Maybe a waiting period is in order too? Before making such a big decision?

  • Trollface McGee

    Ultrasounds are 100% necessary so teh dumb wimminz know that the foetus has the potential to be a baby, otherwise they might think they got a watermelon or something. If the smart pro-life people don’t point that out to them and make sure they see “Look idiot, foetus, not watermelon” then the woman might get all confused and plan a barbecue.
    It’s a well-known fact that the pro-abortion industry regularly tells women that they are carrying excess fruit in their bellies because… well, they are evil and they get a kick out of ruining those cook outs where everyone’s got the hot dogs and the burgers and are expecting the woman to bring a nice watermelon and instead,brings a newborn.

  • James Finnegan

    The Knights of Columbus has a great program to help provide ultrasound machines to crisis pregnancy centers. Given that the Knights have made hundreds of those machines available all over the USA, thousands of women have viewed sonograms of their unborn embryos and fetuses as a result of the Knights’ ultrasound initiative. The research that looked at ultrasound;s effect on women’s choosing to terminate their pregnancies should have included the ultrasound viewing that happened at the crisis pregnancy centers. The overall numbers would probably look a lot different.

    • RonPaul2012

      The KOC is a racist, misogynist, homophobic institution.

    • Jennifer Starr

      And there have been cases at these fake clinics where the person doing the sonogram fails to spot a problem with a pregnancy because they aren’t medical professionals who are qualified to actually read a sonogram. It’s a medical and diagnostic tool, James–not just a way for a volunteer to get a cute fetus picture.

    • HeilMary1

      But your Knights are OK with Catholic Nazis who gutted pregnant Serb “heretics” during WWII. And aren’t the Knights named after genocider Christopher Columbus who wiped out 2 million Carribean Arawak people?

    • fiona64

      There’s one problem with that, Mr. Finnegan: CPCs are not medical facilities. In fact, they’re the opposite of medical facilities. They exist as nothing more than adoption mills, and use deliberate falsehoods to push that position. Research has indeed shown something about those CPC ultrasounds: that the women are told they are further along in their pregnancies than they really are, and that it is too late to get an abortion.

      • Ivy Mike

        Indeed. CPC’s exist to lie to women. Any reports they give regarding women “changing their minds” due to ultrasounds should be viewed in this light.

        Congressional investigations have documented the fact that, bluntly, CPC’s will do anything including lie, shame, cajole, ignore privacy rights, and preach, to prevent women from getting abortions. They have zero credibility, which is why they cannot be included in any studies. It’s simply a given that they will lie to researchers.

  • RonPaul2012

    Yep, and that is the point. Make it impossible for poor women to get an abortion.

  • Ivy Mike

    New report on RawStory: A US District court has ruled that North Carolina’s forced ultrasound/forced viewing/forced speech from the doctor law is unconstitutional.

    I have a hard time understanding how anyone could find such a law constitutional on any level.

    A key portion of the ruling explained that the law had no other purpose than to promote the legislature’s philosophy and opinions regarding abortion, and that the state had no right to use physicians and medical facilities as its “mouthpiece”.

    • Ella Warnock

      Good. A little sanity for a change. It’s refreshing.

    • L-dan

      Thank goodness.

      It’s not as if they don’t have plenty of outlets to make sure that pregnant people are aware of their feelings on the topic.

  • expect_resistance

    Why did RonPaul2012′s comments get deleted?

    • fiona64

      Good question!

      • Defamate

        Well, it would appear to be fixed. I sent them a poorly worded message on facebook about something, and they may have assumed that *I* was the troll. Probably related to my ‘nym…it doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.

    • Defamate

      It was a comment I made on another part of the site that, though sarcastic, was quite uncouth:P

      Was banned accidentally for that, and the RP2012 nym makes me sound like a troll!

  • Defamate

    BTW. I have been posting on this site for a few months and I regularly change my nym. I have posted as valde/jejune/osiote/ronpaul2012.

    You will *always* know it’s me because if you click on my nym, it will say ‘how jejune’ up in the top left corner.

    I was temporarily banned, so this is just a heads up for regulars who may wonder who the new person is when I change my nym!

    • expect_resistance

      That’s for the heads up. It would suck if you didn’t post here. I would miss you!!!!! Glad you’re not leaving.

  • Carstonio

    Not quite accurate. Mandatory ultrasound laws are obviously patronizing and manipulative, but in a different way. Proponents claim that women who get the ultrasounds will be so overcome with guilt at seeing the embryo in their uterus that they will cringe in misery and sob, “I can’t go through with the abortion! I feel so ashamed that I didn’t want to be a mother!” These folks want a Movie-of-the-Week happy ending, believing that all women crave motherhood and that the ones who seek abortion are in denial.