Catholic Groups Trying to Eliminate Coverage of Contraception No Matter Who Pays


Correction: This article has been updated to clarify the fact that Little Sisters employees cannot, in practice, go directly to an insurance company to get contraception coverage, because the insurance plan available to those employees also does not cover contraception.

The latest twist in the battle over the Affordable Care Act’s contraception mandate made headlines last week, when Justice Sonia Sotomayor issued a temporary injunction for a small number of Catholic nonprofits who have a quarrel with the way the government allows them to exempt themselves from offering insurance plans that cover contraception. The injunction itself is not a big deal—Sotomayor may be preserving the status quo until the case gets a chance to be heard in court—but the case itself is incredibly important. Even more than the larger Hobby Lobby case regarding for-profit companies trying to use religion to weasel out of minimum compensation standards set by the government, this case shows how little the fight against the contraception mandate is about “religious freedom” and how much it is really about the Christian right trying to establish an employer’s “right” to control your private sex life.

See, the groups that are suing, including the Little Sisters of the Poor, cannot argue that the government is forcing them to “pay” for contraception and not just because those health-care plans actually belong to the employees, who earned them as they earned their paychecks through working. Worse: The health-care reform law completely exempts the Little Sisters and other such nonprofits from offering their employees plans that cover contraception. In such cases, organizations like the Little Sisters fill out a self-certification as a religiously affiliated organization, and voila! They don’t have to offer contraceptive coverage directly through their health insurance plans. But this case goes further. In other such cases, women employed by religiously affiliated organizations that refuse insurance coverage for contraception would be offered coverage directly by an insurance company with no payment or involvement by their employer. In this case, however, the sisters’ insurer, Christian Bros., also is a religiously affiliated organization, so there is no avenue for these women to get insurance coverage for contraception. They must instead pay out-of-pocket. So really, the lawsuit is purely to establish the principle that employers shouldn’t have to free their employees to get contraception coverage elsewhere.

So what are the nuns doing? Refusing to sign the paperwork. You know, the paperwork that exempts them from having to spend a single dime of their organization’s money on a compensation package that explicitly covers contraception. Why? Because signing that paperwork allows their employees to get the coverage elsewhere, and, they claim, that makes them complicit in the great evil that is contraception, a preventive measure used by 99 percent of women.

At this point, it’s worth pointing out that their employees can spend their paychecks on contraception. Which means that a dollar that has touched the Little Sisters account and passed on to an employee has likely been spent on a condom. There’s no way around it. Paying their employees makes them more “complicit” with contraception than signing a piece of paper that allows them not to pay for health plans that cover contraception. The notion that an employer gets to have a moral vote in what your health insurance covers but not in what your paycheck covers has always been logically inconsistent, and this lawsuit really exposes how true that is.

By not signing the paperwork, which would give its employees an opportunity to get contraception coverage elsewhere, the Little Sisters is making it exquisitely clear that this is not and has never been about being “complicit” or “paying for” contraception. It’s about the Christian right using every lever they can pull to make it harder for women to obtain contraception at all. It’s a mentality that sees every unintended and forced pregnancy as a moral victory over the forces of feminism, which leads to a world where they’re willing to go great distances just to make it harder for even a small number of women to prevent unintended pregnancy.

It’s also about employers demanding a shocking amount of control over what you do in your own private life. I cannot reiterate this enough: The Little Sisters refuses to sign paperwork that frees its employees to get contraception coverage elsewhere. “Frees” is the operative word here. The nuns may claim they are doing this for “religious freedom,” but in reality, they are doing the opposite, looking for as many ways as possible to use their power as employers to strip their employees of freedom to make their own choices outside of work about sexuality and health.

This is not just a feminist issue or a women’s issue or a reproductive rights issue. If these lawsuits are successful, that creates a massive precedent for the argument that employees should be expected to give up personal freedoms in order to adhere to their boss’ religious beliefs. Not only is that a form of religious discrimination against employees who disagree with their bosses on these issues, it’s a way to create two classes of Americans: those who are bosses and, therefore, free to make their own religious and personal choices, and the rest of us. It sets up the claim that in order for the wealthy and privileged who do most of the hiring in the country to be “free,” the rest of us have to give up our freedoms. It’s downright Orwellian, an attempt to redefine “freedom” to mean “an inability of people who need to work for a living to make their own choices.”

Not that any of this is surprising. Throughout conservative history, the second one government entity stops oppressing people and instead starts to protect their rights, conservatives look to other government entities—or private employers—to start stripping those rights away again. That’s why they yell “states rights” whenever they want a state to have a right to take away freedoms the federal government is interested in protecting. And now that women look like they might have more freedom to choose when and how they get pregnant, conservatives are declaring that employers have a right to take that freedom away. The end goal is always about ending individual freedoms, especially for traditionally oppressed classes. This lawsuit just shows how true that really is.

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  • fiona64

    It’s about the Christian right using every lever they can pull to make
    it harder for women to obtain contraception at all. It’s a mentality
    that sees every unintended and forced pregnancy as a moral victory over
    the forces of feminism, which leads to a world where they’re willing to
    go great distances just to make it harder for even a small number of
    women to prevent unintended pregnancy.

    And yet people still argue that there is no right-wing war on women …

    • CJ99

      The sheer volume of fecal matter the right wing fanatics generate while defending the indefensible is enough to cause greenhouse gas, yet they also deny climate change as well. It may seem off topic on the surface but deeper down its related. the greatest threat to humanity on this planet is humanity itself. With this “david taylor” & his ilk flinging crap like its going out of style I hold little faith in humanities future. If I could sign up for nasa & get a 1 way trip anywhere off this planet I’d do it in a heartbeat.

      • Andrea McDavid

        Ah yes I see what you mean, but there is no new world to run to now. Truth is the silver in the bullet. Watch Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter. It’s a brilliant analogy. They win with silver which they melt down for the war to kill of the vamps who are vamping on the slaves. At one point someone points out that vamps have to be fed and if they stop feeding off the slaves they will come after the rest of the population and Abraham answers “Until the slaves are free, none of us are free.” It’s quite brilliant and thought provoking and an incredibly sensitive topic imo. Just so you know how open my mind is and why I speak as if I know what I’m perhaps talking about (ahem), I am the product of the workplace rape of a woman who was the grand daughter of indentured slaves from Madeira, who ran the black slaves, for the white owners of a plantation, in the tropics. My grandmother was Catholic and she was not considered white, because she was Hispanic, nor was she black. They had 5 skin colors on birth certs back then. My grandfather was a rich white Anglo American whose plantation fell into ruin once the slaves were freed. Her family stayed and turned it into a chicken farm. She and her sisters were Catholics on Sunday morning, where my dad was a molested choir boy, and earned money on the side as spirit mediums on Sunday night – aka Whoopie Goldberg style in Ghost. I kid you not. How strange eh. The story gets stranger believe me, thanks to white male power and the good old Catliks.

        • CJ99

          I have no doubt that there are those alive today, a great many of them who genuinely desire to what you’re parents & ancestors suffered through. What I’ve seen is that they absolutely will not stop until they’ve got there perverted theocracy or their attempts are so thoroughly crushed that there’s no possibility of them trying again. Either way the worlds in for some very rough times ahead. I’m not so optimistic that things will improve much at all. Though I do want to have hope it’s not easy. Nor do I have much idea how I can do anything to make things better. If I did know I’d be doing it.

          • Andrea McDavid

            I like you. Watch Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter. Read between the lines. When they melt down silver to kill the slavers, who are the vamps vamping on the slaves, consider that “truth is the silver in the bullet”. Just keep uncovering it and keep sharing it. Don’t worry about the impact. That’s not your job to worry about. Also, consider the scene in the matrix, when Neo comes back to life (because Trinity realizes she believes he is “the one” and her belief allows her to unreservedly project her love into him and bring him back to life – yes love is the key lol, how corny… I know). He then gets up and dives inside the bad guy, who represents lies and control for exploitative motives (of course), and his light (“truth” – no it’s not subjective – sorry to bust people’s bubbles) basically blows the bad guy up from the inside out – because the darkness a lie needs to hide in, cannot withstand light. John Koffe in The Green Mile also was able to absorb disease from people and neutralize it because it cannot survive surrounded and contained by innocence – John was innocent.

            The answer is all around us. The monuments created at the founding of the US remind us. Yes they are. They were intended for this moment – because they knew it would happen. They were not so naive to think that the war they fled from would not follow them here.

            If you really feel it’s too late, then stand back and watch the train wreck that is this species – it may not happen or it might. But remember, will you ask yourself if you could have done more? Only you can answer that question as is your right, but I would advise being sure you have no compunction to make any more effort before quitting. You don’t need the karma of quitting before you’re spent. As for being spent, tell me about it. If you need rest, take it. See how you feel afterwards. If you’d still spent, then…it’s your call.

  • David Taylor

    I agree with the nuns though I am not and would never be a member of the Catholic Church: they have a right to not have to not sign paperwork that is 1) not necessary 2) is ‘necessary’ to do something that goes against their beliefs. If the government would get their hands off the free market, we would not have this pickle at all. People should be terrified that our twisted government has given so much power to an employee – that the employer must sign anything for the employee to exercise his/her right to buy insurance elsewhere.

    • HeilMary1

      You support heretic nuns forcing stinky, deadly obstetric bladder and bowel incontinence, and a zillion other gruesome and bankrupting complications, on female employees in order to indulge pedophile priests with fresh molestable altar boys and girls? Psychotic employers do not have the constitutional right to commit criminal Munchausen by Proxy malpractice against female employees. This is not Catholic Nazi Germany, although I’m sure you would like it to be.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Unless the nuns are being forced to ingest birth control themselves, I don’t see where their ‘beliefs’ should ever enter into the picture.

    • lorimakesquilts

      As employers, no doubt licensed by the state, they do not have the right to deny access to health insurance to their workers. Either they pay for insurance that has acceptable coverage or they don’t offer it and pay the fine (or tax or whatever it is.) There isn’t a middle ground that doesn’t take away workers rights.

      What makes me so crazy about this is the fact that money is fungible. A dollar is equivalent to every other dollar, there is no special Catholic currency. They compensate employees with money — whether that goes into the workers pocket or pays part of insurance premium doesn’t matter.

      As you said, they are trying to control what workers do with their compensation. It’s sounding more and more like they want to go back to the horrible pre-union days exemplified by coal miners and company stores.

      • David Taylor

        It sounds to me more like the employees want the company store to provide discounts. Anytime the government says we have to buy something from a specific source – the government injures the free market.

        • lorimakesquilts

          No, employees want the company store to offer their goods at a reasonable, free market price. You couldn’t be more wrong about that. Not to mention the free market has been a dismal failure when it comes to healthcare. Requiring a minimum standard is hardly limiting or unprecedented.

          No one is required to buy insurance from a specific source, there are a myriad of options to pick from or you can choose none at all. If you have a problem with that then take it to the conservatives, the mess that is ACA is their program.

          • David Taylor

            Employees want to dictate what the company store sells AND want it sold to them at a reasonable price. I have no objection to the latter, but the former is unfair to the employer. I disagree with your unfounded assertion that the free market has been a failure when it comes to healthcare. If no-one were required to buy from a specific source no one has a claim against the nuns because those people can buy elsewhere too. This is both a conservative and progressive turd and it can only be fixed by returning to the principles a free market via Libertarian-ism. The government should not be using an act of violence (a law under which penalty will be enacted) against either party, or creating monopolies (can only buy X, or can only buy from a single source).

          • HeilMary1

            The nuns are already boxing their employees into a no-choice corner by only providing a Catholic extremist insurance provider.

          • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

            it’s not about a right to buy or sell, the mere fact that the government allows “employers” to buy labor annihilates your idea and shows it to be unequal.

          • David Taylor

            Way what? The government does not allow people to make deals with other people. Such as existed before common law as a natural right of association. The government just taxes it to make money for what politicians decide is important AND limits that natural right.

          • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

            I don’t understand what you’re attempting to convey, the common law is comprised of Court decisions made in the vindication of natural rights. Property and money are “positivist” inventions which in evolutionary practice have resulted in exclusion and the deprivation of natural rights, ironically, by Positivism – e.g., the NYS Const grants the Legislature the prerogative to rescind whatever aspect of the common law they whim. Life, Liberty and Property are the three categories of rights protected under the common law (otherwise the laws of the States). Natural law recognizes possession for the purpose of subsistence, shelter &c, but does not recognize property or money and it’s only by positivist innovation that the common law does.

          • David Taylor

            Rights protected under common law are preexisting. That is why they are not created by common law but merely protected. These things, like the right to associate and contract are inherent (a definition of Natural Law used in some societies – where it is treated synonymous with Natural Right, or if you prefer human rights.

          • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

            I’m afraid you have it ass backwards David, rights are not rights until they are vindicated. The only reason Natural Rights are said to exist is because without them there would be no point in living. This is why the concept is referred to as Natural LAW – e.g., if you don’t drink water then you die rather quickly but if you have water but no food then you last a little longer, without shelter odds are against you too; but air is the biggy, without that, it’s a matter of minutes. So these are recognized as Law regarding the status of humanity in relation to the earth. So the common law allows an action to lie for the corruption of air. These things you’re referring to are referred to as Civil Law or Commercial law – e.g., the Code of Justinian. You don’t parish if you don’t sign a contract, in order to effectuate that end requires Positivist intervention not an invisible hand.

          • David Taylor

            Obviously, you are arguing apples while I am talking about oranges.

          • HeilMary1

            The nuns are throwing political hissy fits since they know their Catholic “insurer” is also exempt from SAVING WOMEN’S LIVES.

          • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

            Obviously you are at best a sophist that wagers his vanity on the ignorance of others; either that or you have no conception of law, either literally or historically. Kind of like a Snake Oil Salesman.

          • David Taylor

            Or, I just do not like you since you argue in circles and are unwilling to accept that others might have a differing opinion that could be equally valid.

          • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

            You are committing various fallacies of logic and attributing your opinions to law where they have no ground. I rest my case on the various comments I’ve already made. Whether you like me or not is immaterial so are your beliefs or disbeliefs.

          • HeilMary1

            Well said!

          • David Taylor

            Oh, please do, give it a rest.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU give it a rest.

          • fiona64

            You first, Randtard …

          • CJ99

            Your bullshit isn’t valid thats what everyones telling you. thing is you don’t even have to admit that you’re a brazen liar, that much has been clear for a long time. What you say is irrelevent as are you.

          • CJ99

            what you’ve been drooling out on your keyboard isn’t a fruit at all, nor does it need to be posted here. You should flush it along with the toilet paper you found it on.

          • HeilMary1

            I’m sure those mean step-Sisters would sign that form in a minute if the exemption was designed by Rethugs instead of the Dems.

          • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

            The point in all of this is that some Legislature created an “exception” regarding churches and taxation. There is no natural or common law “right” in this regard. Taxation is an invention of civil society, just like money and property. Consequently, such exception was/is merely a flat out act of “Positive Law”. Moreover, this enactment must be strictly construed because (amongst other things) it impairs the Legislatures’ express (vested) power to raise taxes, hence it cannot be extended by implication and therefore it is something that only a Legislature can do, not a court. All of which is by virtue of an eminently conservative doctrine known as “the strict construction doctrine”. Consequently, the exception ends when members of the congregation enter into a “profit class” business. It appears to me that what’s happening here is that David Taylor and various persons are trying to build some sort of majority in order to Legislate a further exception based on the idea of unequal Privileges and Immunities in regards to “profit class” business. If they accomplish that it has nothing whatever to do with Natural Law, Common Law, or a Great Goo Gah Moo Gah, it has to do with an act by a Legislature and another eminently conservative concept known as “Judicial Restraint”. Personally I can’t see any reason why anyone ought to be exempted from taxation for a “profit class” business on the presumption that the sole exception regarding natives not taxed is set forth in the US Const, while no such proviso is set forth therein in re religion. In fact a far more plausible argument, it seems to me, is that the creation of such exception violates the 1st A. US Const establishment clause. It’s not like this is some ecumenical religious precept which in itself by Gov recognition would violate the establishment clause just like when Government protects and facilitates private discrimination and becomes subject to suit (Shelley v Kramer)

          • HeilMary1

            Your insight is way over Dave’s IQ and Randian obtuseness.

          • expect_resistance

            Great post!

          • fiona64

            These things, like the right to associate and contract are inherent

            Yep, there it is … the “nicey-nice” version of “I shouldn’t have to hire a n***** if I don’t want to.”

          • David Taylor

            You must be referring to yourself since you are the one calling names.

          • fiona64

            Looking for any name-calling … and not seeing any. You’re not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

            Oh, wait. You’re referring to RandTard, I guess. Boo hoo. I call ‘em like I see ‘em.

          • David Taylor

            That’s because you think calling someone a name they disagree with is acceptable. That’s why you think using “Randtard” and “N****” is acceptable.

          • fiona64

            Oh, no, sweetie. I don’t find the n-word acceptable at all. I am, however, perfectly capable of using it in the context that your fellow “libertarians” do.

            I’m sorry that you’re incapable of nuanced thinking (another Objectivist trait), but that’s really not my fault, now, is it?

          • David Taylor

            I doubt you are truly capable of being sorry for anything, Fiona64. You must hang around some f’d up libertarians if those you hang with think the ‘N” word is ok. Not my caliber of people.

          • fiona64

            What part of “I don’t spend time with those people any more” was beyond you?

            Oh, all of it, I guess. You’re no different than they are.

            And yes, I am sorry that you are as stupid as you appear to be. No one should be that stupid.

          • David Taylor

            My guess is that you don’t spend time with them because they are apparently smarter than I – and have ignored you sooner.

          • fiona64

            You’re laughable. I don’t spend time with “objectivist” trash … which means that I wouldn’t even miss your sorry arse if it were gone.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You knew it was going to come, right? Had to. This guy is a freak.

          • Arval Becker

            Free Market health care has been a total failure on all fronts with the exception of lining the pockets of a few. The US pays the largest portion of the GDP into medical care of any industrialized nation. For that, we have the worst outcome for that money possible. I know that is the free market dream, but it is not what we want as policy when lives of our citizens are concerned.

            The women that are unfortunate enough to work for a Catholic Corporation, should not be under the thumb of their employers as to if they can buy contraception or not. By not wanting to sign the paper to make them exempt because it would allow the employees to buy contraceptives with out their permission just shows how far reaching the Christian Taliban thinks it can go.

        • HeilMary1

          But you’re OK with pedophile priests and adulterous males getting free Viagra with their Catholic medical insurance, even if the men’s rape victims and conquests then GET ABORTIONS.

          • David Taylor

            We have laws that deal with pedophilia and rapist. Were all parties give consent, the government needs to stay as far out of our bedroom life as it should stay out of our private business transactions. Catholics don’t loose such rights just because they have religious beliefs – even if they choose to violate their own beliefs… where it does not break the law.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I still don’t see where someone’s religious beliefs are violated by filling out a form. You can’t even argue that they’re paying for it this time, because they aren’t. The only rights being violated are the rights of the employee who is being inconvenienced by the employer’s religious rules.

          • David Taylor

            Let’s put it this way Jennifer: Would you sign a paper that might be interpreted as giving your permission for someone to have sex with your spouse, boyfriend, etc. (assuming you are not into sharing) ; or that might let them spit on all your stuff, or do other things you disagree with? Why not? Why should you ever have too?

            These nuns should never have to sign a piece of paper that might remotely feel to them like they are granting permission to do something they believe is wrong. 1) it’s wrong to force ones beliefs on another, 2) the nuns should never be in such a place of control: no nun signature should be required.

            The real problem here is a faulty set of rules/laws that requires the employee to get permission (in the form of proof) from an employer – about a topic that is known to be a religious hot-point. This only happened because the government made the rules/laws in a way that thwarts the pre-existing free market.

          • HeilMary1

            Social Darwinist billionaire Republicans created your beloved “free market” FOR PROFIT “insurance” system that enriches CEOs by denying subscribers ACTUAL COVERAGE after they paid premiums for years. Such Darwinism makes the CEOs richer while they softly genocide us “useless eaters”.

          • David Taylor

            That may be the source of your free market, but the one I am referring to has existed as long as people have existed, right along the concept of risk sharing. Both of the major parties are to blame for the current fiasco. Maybe we’ll just have to get more libertarians in there to fix it.

          • HeilMary1

            What kind of “libertarians”? The ones who worship fetuses, arrest women for miscarriages and starve the poor and disabled?

          • David Taylor

            I’ve not met a single libertarian who would arrest a woman for a miscarriage? Have you? You need better friends.

          • HeilMary1

            You’are not paying attention! — this web site has listed several women here in the U.S. and in Catholic-ruined Latin America imprisoned for “negligent or deliberate” miscarriages. One South American woman died in prison for undiagnosed Hodgkin’s lymphoma because her cancer killed her fetus.

          • David Taylor

            Interesting, and terrible. I’ve not seen that on this website. Can you provide a direct link? Still, I don’t see how that is related to the ACA or insurance and healthcare for nuns in the United States where the ACA applies…

          • HeilMary1

            My links don’t post here, but try googling AlJazeera’s “Life at any price” on the plight of women in El Salvador.

          • fiona64

            You know, the TeaBirchers like the Koch Bros? That’s what Libertarianism really is … just an extension of the John Birch Society. “I shouldn’t have to rent to a n***** if I don’t want to; let them find somewhere else to live! Freedom!”

            Feh.

          • David Taylor

            Nope. That’s just plain old bigotry. People cannot determine their own skin color at will but the can determine if they will have sex or not at will. That’s why we already have laws to handle racial discrimination in housing – which is completely off topic.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep, it is all about the SEX for you. Are you whacking off while posting to the wild Feminists? I bet you got the KY and the Kleenex right by the computer for convenience.

          • fiona64

            People do not choose their sexual orientations any more than they choose their ethnicity, David — and people need not remain celibate if they wish to not conceive. And plenty of your fellow travelers think that those anti-discrimination laws should be eliminated because “freedom of association” and “free market.”

          • David Taylor

            Both of those points are debatable. We, unfortunately, still do not have proof of how sexual orientation is formed – though I do believe there is a strong genetic component (likely influence by social and environmental factors, but strong none the less). Further, it is irrelevant IMO when it comes to laws as the laws should not treat anyone differently regardless of orientation by gene or by choice. I cannot speak for others, only myself.

          • HeilMary1

            Then why are you singling out women for imposed childbirth injuries and deaths? I’ll bet you’d demand an abortion if tests revealed your wife would be grossly disfigured or the fetus grossly deformed and expensive JUST FOR YOUR OWN CONVENIENCE, never mind their suffering!

          • David Taylor

            Unfortunately, I am not God. Because of that, I most certainly did not single out women to be female. No have I addressed the right to abortion at all on this thread. Since birth control pills are not and morning after pills are not abortion causing – I don’t see an issue here.

          • HeilMary1

            But you’re defending the nuns keeping their employees from getting these essential prescriptions!

          • HeilMary1

            Women, especially married women, shouldn’t have to fear the shredding of their lady parts, multiple organ failures, and death EVERY TIME they have sex! Suppose men had to deliver melon-sized fetuses though their penises? — you crybaby cads would have abortion kiosks on every corner! Childbirth injuries, birth defects, and multi-million dollar medical bills are intrinsic to human reproduction as is RACE. You just want to dump all expenses and deadly consequences on women while you commit adultery on your brood mare as you please!

          • David Taylor

            Women who fear this every time they have sex need mental health services. If every woman felt that way, our species would cease to exist. Thankfully, most women are not quacks.

          • HeilMary1

            Asshat quack, the only reason why most women don’t fear obstetric bladder and bowel incontinence fistulas, symphysiotomies, flesh-eating bacteria infections, etc. is because of BIRTH CONTROL. Without birth control, ALL women would suffer one or more of these deadly divorce-causing calamities! My mom suffered embarrassing incontinence and feared death from her next pregnancy — that’s why she abused me!

          • fiona64

            She’s describing with incredible accuracy the risks every pregnant woman assumes when she chooses to gestate, David. And if a woman cannot access contraception (and you seem to think that’s an acceptable situation), then she puts herself at risk of death every time she has sex.

            Dude, I had hyperemesis gravidarum. People *die* from that every single day. It is not jut morning sickness, either, so just put the skids on whatever crap you were going to say in that regard. I would rather die than ever be pregnant again, that’s how miserable it was. That’s why I got a tubal ligation at age 29 … and I had to shop around on my insurance to find a doc who would do it because I was considered “too young” to make that call since I was under 30, and my husband had to sign a goddamned permission slip. Did your wife have to sign a permission slip for you to get snipped? No? I thought not.

            This is why health care parity is so important, nitwit.

          • fiona64

            Maybe we’ll just have to get more libertarians in there to fix it.

            That’s a laugh. We’d be back to Jim Crow in the South so fast that people’s heads would spin.

          • David Taylor

            I think you are misunderstanding what it means to be a libertarian.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I spent some time going to Libertarian meetings. What a bunch of losers. Example: a guy complaining about paying taxes to the government while working for the state mousquito commission.

            Listen, Pal. You do not get it your way if your way hurts me. I am an anarchist. I will break your face for shitz and giggles. There is nothing anti liberty about insurance pools. Do you refuse to pay your car insurance?

            The unconscious issue here is sex with you. You are a creepy freak pretending to be about liberty.

          • David Taylor

            Plum, you have real issues and need to get help from a mental health professional.

          • RonPaul2012

            Ad hominem because you cannot refute plum’s arguments.

          • David Taylor

            Agreed. I returned ad hominem to Plum because I was given a straw man argument (I spent some time going to Libertarian meetings. What a bunch of losers. Example: a guy complaining about paying taxes to the government while working for the state mousquito commission): This creates a distorted straw man out of the entire group of libertarians, attacks them with ad hominem (implied – they are hypocrites; direct – they complain, direct – they are losers) and then in classic straw man fashion lumps me in as guilty by association.

            That is followed by a red-herring: “You do not get it your way if your way hurts me”. Considering I don’t have a way, that is, I don’t employee nuns, work for the Church, or any have any influence over your choices – this is a red-herring trying to shift the focus off the real issues. Followed by another straw man about auto insurance as if that is the model by wish heath insurance was formed (wish it was, then I could self insure my own health by placing cash in the bank and filing a self-insured claim like I can with my car).

            Then, I get a personal threat of violence from Plum: “I will break your face for shitz and giggles.”

            Then I get more ad hominem from Plum saying, “The unconscious issue here is sex with you. You are a creepy freak pretending to be about liberty” – attacking my mental heath and accusing me of being some sort of sexual deviant.

            All of that, because I disagree.

            If there was a real argument Plum formed, rather than personal attacks and other fallacies, I would have dressed them but instead – yes, I consciously choose to point out the high probably of Plum’s real issues at the risk of someone thinking it was just pure ad hominem.

          • HeilMary1

            We’ve given you many real points but you are too selfish, greedy, misogynistic and stupid to admit you’re wrong. Health insurance is more critical than car insurance because everyone needs the first and many get by without cars. Since childbirth maims ALL women and still murders 20% of all women in some regions, and since NO man would marry to practice decades of abstinence for priests who bang everyone’s kids and spouses, birth control is essential for saving women’s health, lives and marriages. Perhaps you love the excuse of childbirth disfigurements as your excuse for your adultery and divorces, but that still doesn’t give you the legal right to use fetuses as fists to harm women. And shame on “non-Catholic” you for defending clergy who commit such medical mayhem.

          • David Taylor

            I completely agree that heath insurance is more important that auto insurance. Most women I know would disagree with the notion that they are maimed by child birth or that it is the governments responsibility to provide them birth control. The government regularly does not provide things that are essential to save lives. For example, without insurance men and women die from heart problems that can be treated but that the government just will not pay for… It seems as if you are saying that because of the mere fact they are women – they deserve the special treatment of having all their essential needs met for them. That I disagree with as it is unfair to non-women and unfair to everyone else who does not get all the same without having to earn it.

            I’ve never committed adultery nor do I defend Catholics who commit crimes. Of course, you’ve decided to ascribe all sort of ill intent, name calling, etc., to me simply because you don’t like that I exercise might right to speak freely about my differing opinion.

          • HeilMary1

            Men and women deserve the same life- and health-saving affordable health care. This means sliding scale fees because of our vast income inequality and high rates of disabilities. Because each childbirth costs $20,000 to several million, and birth defects also cost several million, governments save themselves from crime-infested overpopulation poverty and bankruptcy by keeping family planning accessible and affordable for everyone. What you’re not getting is the ugly criminal history of the RCC getting away with genocide on many continents by criminalizing all family planning for all people. Cardinal Montini aka Paul VI funded Nazi death camps that targeted Serb Christians because he believed they were guilty of abortions. Victims included pregnant Serbs and their heretic fetuses. Priests ran these camps and raped many children before butchering them. Elsewhere, Hitler targeted “family planning” Jews and we know how that turned out. The legalization of birth control in this country only came after the jailing of many brave doctors, nurses, activists and ruined diaper-wearing MOTHERS like disgraced, dumped Mary Ware Dennett.

          • fiona64

            Most women I know would disagree with the notion that they are maimed by child birth

            Even relatively uncomplicated pregnancies cause permanent damage to women’s bodies. Pubic symphesis diastasis is just one example thereof. Forensic anthropologists can tell how many times a woman has been pregnant by looking at her skeletal remains; each pregnancy causes a striation on the bone due to the expansion and contraction of the pubis … which never fully returns to its pre-pregnant state, and widens further with each subsequent pregnancy. One of my long-time friends, a mother of five, can no longer walk properly or ride a bicycle due to PSD.

            There is no such thing as a completely uncomplicated pregnancy, David. Period. Some are just less difficult than others.

            That I disagree with as it is unfair to non-women

            More MRA crap.

          • RonPaul2012

            “That means each year in the U.S., about 700 women die of pregnancy-related complications and 52,000 experience emergencies such as acute renal failure, shock, respiratory
            distress, aneurysms and heart surgery. An additional 34,000 barely avoid death.”

            Data modeling suggesting 21/100,000 US maternal mortality rate

            In 2004/2005, 1.7 million women per year suffered adverse health effects

            http://search.worldbank.org/data?qterm=us%20maternal%20mortality%20rate&language=EN

            http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/campaigns/demand-dignity/maternal-health-is-a-human-right/maternal-health-in-the-us

            http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/why-are-so-many-u-s-women-dying-during-childbirth/article_dd916b4b-38f0-5bae-ba42-ddee636e4cf4.html

            300k women die per year from childbirth – World Health Organization

            40% of pregnancies have serious complications

            15% of pregnancies have life threatening complications

            2 women die per day in the USA from pregnancy

            over 1 million are permanently injured

            Every single pregnancy raises a woman’s blood pressure, blood sugar, and depresses her immune system. Every birth permanently changes the woman’s pelvis, sometimes so that she has trouble walking/riding bikes etc (fiona can tell you about that). Every single birth scars the woman’s pelvis, as well.

            And milions of women suffer from obstetric fistula, which = urine and feces running your leg uncontrollably. Sometimes it can be fixed, often it cannot. How would you like to wear a diaper for life, David?

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

          • fiona64

            … says the guy who argues that women’s health issues have nothing to do with health care.

            You’re a frigging nutter. Seek help yourself. I’ve known Plum for *decades.* You’re just pissed because she won’t kowtow to you.

            Learn to live with the disappointment.

          • HeilMary1

            “women’s health issues have nothing to do with health care”

            Just like “sex has nothing to do with marriage” and “catastrophic fetal and maternal injuries have nothing to do with our runaway health care costs”, “trumped-up foreign wars have nothing to do with our looted Treasury”, and “outsourced slave labor jobs have nothing to do with our massive unemployment”.

            It must hurt to be that stupid!

          • David Taylor

            See that’s why I say you need help. You keep projecting your ideas on other people as if they are fact. Most people think that is delusional. I have never argued “women’s health issues have nothing to do with health care”. That’s just dumb. I’ve simply argued that women’s acquisition of birth control should not require a signature from their employer, regardless of said employers beliefs.

          • fiona64

            No, dear. Your exact words were “contraception has nothing to do with health care.” In the context of this article, we are talking about hormonal contraception, which only applies to *women.*

            You’re the one who needs help, David, to see why you hate women so much.

          • David Taylor

            Contraception is optional thus it is not a medical necessity – that is what I meant by it having nothing to do with heath care (yes, I realize it is sometimes given for non-contraceptive reason and I agree those are for health benefit) but these are extreme cases upon which we do not make, or should not make broad laws. It seem rather sexist to limit contraception to women.

          • HeilMary1

            It’s sexist to deny women the same safe sex that men always enjoy.

          • fiona64

            Viagra prescribed for erectile dysfunction is optional and thus it is not a medical necessity. Yet, you defend that being given out like candy.

            Avoiding unwanted pregnancy is NOT optional, you jerk. It is, of course, very easy to be an anti-choice/anti-contraception male; you’re never the one whose life is at risk due to gestation.

          • fiona64

            No, I’m not. One of my long-time friends was a “libertarian,” and the reason we are not friends anymore is the institutionalized bigotry inherent in “libertarianism,” which is based on Randian Objectivism. You claim never to have read Rand (which I think is false, but whatever) … and yet her work is the foundation for your “politics.”

            Here is the bottom line problem with your Randian “politics,” David: like communism and any number of other philosophies, it looks really good *on paper.* However, where the rubber meets the road, *real people* are harmed by it. Not that you care, of course; you perceive yourself as a “creator,” not a “taker,” so it’s all good. Well, dude, I’ve got news for you: we’re all in this together.

            Anyway, since you seem to be ignorant of your own political party’s philosophical origins, you may want to have a look-see here: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/106154/no-taxes-no-female-presidents-and-no-physical-attraction-ten-strangest-things-about

          • CJ99

            Nope, only you are once again willfully misrepresting the meaning. In more plain language you’re lying (again)

          • Jennifer Starr

            You wrote: Let’s put it this way Jennifer: Would you sign a paper that might be interpreted as giving your permission for someone to have sex with your spouse, boyfriend, etc. (assuming you are not into sharing) ; or that might let them spit on all your stuff, or do other things you disagree with? Why not? Why should you ever have
            too?

            Not the same thing. I don’t see where someone else obtaining contraception through a third party personally affects the employer in any way shape or form–the only person actually affected would be the person actually taking the contraception–employers should not be able to force employees to live by their religious rules. And furthermore, I also don’t think that a pharmacist should be able to refuse to fill legal prescriptions and impose his ‘conscience’ upon the paying customer.

          • David Taylor

            Perhaps someone who is religious feels the same way about your boyfriend and their spit, etc. If someone else screws your boyfriend it doesn’t affect you at all, does it? Oh, yes, emotionally. Same for the nuns.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nuns don’t take contraception, at least not overtly. And I don’t see how someone else’s prescription medication is the equivalent of my boyfriend. Or my business. Or the nun’s business.

          • David Taylor

            That is my point, Jennifer —- an employee should never have to get approval from an employer about such a personal, private matter. Law/rules enacted by Obamacare should not require it for employees to seek it elsewhere. I am actually for birth control usage. Just not at the expense of making someone else do anything for what should be an individual responsibility.

          • HeilMary1

            But your RCC/GOP opposes government-provided national health insurance because that would save us useless eaters and possibly treat women, gays and non-whites as equals to adulterous white men.

          • David Taylor

            Again you go with the “your”. I don’t have a RCC/GOP. I’m a libertarian because I do not agree with the GOP on too many – and I don’t agree with the DNC on too many as well.

          • HeilMary1

            Well whoop-dee-do!

          • David Taylor

            Hey, that’s the strongest argument I’ve seen here yet!

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t let it go to your head.

          • David Taylor

            Well, there you go. By your definition, I am not an extremist. I think Tricare should cover these benefits.

          • HeilMary1

            But your hypocrite nuns are ALSO funding “sinful” Tricare!

          • David Taylor

            Yes. So, they are already doing enough.

          • HeilMary1

            Not for us non-military working stiffs!

          • Ella Warnock

            They’re not being asked to do anything different than what they’re already doing, is more the point. If you’re paying for it, then you’re paying for it. Splitting hairs really has no value here.

          • Ella Warnock

            The taxpayer, through Tricare, picked up the tab for nine years of my bc pills, tubal slash & burn, and my husband’s vasectomy. All those who wouldn’t sully their hands with any babyproofin’ have been paying for it for years for active duty women and dependents. Abortions, too.

          • David Taylor

            There is a significant difference with regard to Tricare. Tricare is provided by the government not a private employer. The government is an entity that is forbidden by the Constitution from having a religious belief or preference. Religious bodies are not under that obligation. Further, Tricare is the result of direct legislation and provided benefits to people of every faith that have served and earned (or to their beneficiary). Do you understand the difference? Oh, btw, I was a military brat who joined myself (USAR/USN).

          • Ella Warnock

            Yessss, of course I understand the difference, as I was active duty myself and later a dependent. The crux of the matter here is that anti-choicers themselves don’t understand how coverage for the military works.

            The point I was making, and it’s an important one, is that the more strident the anti-choice contingent becomes about “not paying for others’ sex lives,” the more likely they’ll be to agitate to change legislation to remove abortion and any birth control from active duty and dependents depending upon what “they” deem as abortifacients. The fact that citizens of many (or no) faiths are voluntarily serving is neither here nor there as far as they’re concerned. THEIR religious beliefs are the only ones of any significance.

            The very fact that Tricare is funded by the “government” (i.e. taxpayer) is the very reason those opposed to abortion and birth control want an end to “their” tax dollars funding anything that could in any way smack of babyproofin’. Benefits that would be seen as preventative by anyone thinking rationally are deemed by anti-choicers to not only NOT be preventative, but also are not in any way an aspect of women’s health care. When they say they don’t want to foot the bill for any of it, that’s exactly what they mean – whether you’ve served your country or not.

            Do you understand?

          • David Taylor

            I understand the single mindedness on both side of the equation and both are terrible. I certainly share share none of the beliefs that seem to concern outside of the birth control issue you are talking about. In that regard, you seem to be anti-choice: against the choice of the nuns to not sign; and against the choice of the employee to not have to divulge desire for birth control by seeking an unnecessary signature. All insurers have to give a policy indicating what is covered and what is not to each covered person. That’s the law. A copy of that policy and a copy of a pay-stub is more than ample proof of employment by an organization that does not cover birth control. The only reason such might not be allowed is because of the political agenda of progressives trying to subvert the rights of others.

          • HeilMary1

            Asshat, these nuns and their religious insurer ARE ALREADY EXEMPT, and no employee has to out herself as a “sinner” by presenting the form. If any woman is injured, killed or goes bankrupt from resulting imposed pregnancies, I hope she and/or her family file criminal malpractice, assault and even homicide charges against these sisters from hell. And I hope YOUR taxes go up to cover their SS disability claims.

          • David Taylor

            Perhaps I miss-read the article, are you saying since they are already exempt no signature from the employer is needed since this should be in the insurance coverage contact they have to provide?

          • HeilMary1

            These nuns use an already religiously-exempt insurer. They could sign the form with the smug certainty that their insurer would still deny contraception to the employees. That is what RHReality Check has been pointing out over and over again!

          • Ella Warnock

            As long as the nuns are employing lay people, they’re funding whatever is purchased with those wages. As uncomfortable as it may be to look at it that way, that is the stark reality. If that’s such a problem insofar as contraception covered by insurance goes, then perhaps they could more effectively guard their purity by not having employees or requiring employees to abide by their principles. If it’s worth protesting, then it should be worth sacrificing for.

          • David Taylor

            If applied equally to people of all belief systems and their employment of lay people – that would be worth considering. I wonder how many people would loose their jobs or how many people would fake conversion so they could get the job?

          • Ella Warnock

            All of my employers have had distinct cultures but no specific “belief system” whereby I was required to scramble for purchase upon any steep theological slope, which is, of course, as it should be. I’d be willing to forgoe a job that asked something of me that I was not willing to give, and it would be a hardship. For me, a worthy one.

            If one is willing to more or less abide by an employer’s belief system, then faking conversion isn’t terribly problematic.

          • fiona64

            A weekend warrior? Good grief. My worst (and last) job ever with the DoD was with a reserve unit. I had never seen so much dishonesty and political bee-ess in my *life.* Officers being “passed for OER purposes” after failing both weight and PT tests was just the tip of the iceberg.

          • David Taylor

            Who was the weekend warrior? Not I: USAR (as an 11th grade 17 year old while in H.S. — early entry enlisted) then regular USN after high school, still enlisted. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who is white and well dressed had parents who could pay their way to college. People presume too much about people they don’t know.

          • HeilMary1

            You presume too much about women’s bodies and Catholic moral “consistency”.

          • David Taylor

            such as? I don’t think you can hit a real thing I presume.

          • colleen2

            You personally are just not that interesting David. You’re a pompous old man

          • CJ99

            Again you know nothing of what you so blatantly bullshit about. The most military experience you’d have is that of Jrotc, at best. Even with the military’s deliberate slowness dealing with rapists & other pschoctics in the ranks they’d not take anyone so clearly delusional as yourself. None of them would want the risk of being shot in the back. Even then if you’d miraculously weaselled your way into rotc, you’d have not made it far, rotc “graduates” have such a poor reputation that they’re routinely shuffled off into deadend jobs in non critical areas where they can do no real damage.

          • HeilMary1

            But taxes paid by fetal idolaters fund Tricare, you idiot, which is why extremists have tried to ban Tricare from providing such life-saving benefits!

          • HeilMary1

            Your nuns are OK with providing their beloved priests and adulterous male employees FREE VIAGRA which usually results in secret abortions, so they have NO right to extort suicidal pregnancies or abstinence-only divorces from their female employees!

          • David Taylor

            Your nuns? As I said, I am not even Catholic. I don’t have nuns — I prefer my gal sexually active. :) Look, if you are going to be a bigot and assign them to me then I won’t even bother to debate the matter with you.

            It’s well known that catholic religious leaders deem it ungodly to prevent pregnancy outside of the rhythm method. It does not seem hard to grasp that one is seen as a sin and the other is not. That doesn’t make it right, or even my belief, but they, no matter how crass it may seem to the rest of the world, are entitled to have beliefs.

          • HeilMary1

            But you’re defending their marriage-ruining, mother-killing crap! My childbirth-incontinent mom burned all my skin off as her permanent abstinence excuse since the UNnatural Family Cramming malpractice scam nearly killed her. The playboy priest who urged her to disfigure me then told my dad to take up alcohol and hookers on the side. Your defense of the killer nuns has criminal consequences for the rest of us. What about my liberty? — Don’t I have I have a right to skin on my body? Don’t all women have a right to the same safe sex that all men, including priests, get away with?

          • David Taylor

            I’m not defending anything except every person’s right not to sign papers they feel go against their beliefs. It sounds like you have some deep issues that are affecting your observation of that. Sex is never safe for men; though I agree women have additional risk of having to carry, men have a risk of having their kid ‘stolen’ or being forced into having one they don’t want: the incidents of unwanted kids where women planned it are probably much higher than the incidents of the other way around. Both are horrible.

          • HeilMary1

            Unwanted unplanned pregnancies are far higher than the few get-rich-quick schemes by mistresses of the late Redskins owner Jack Kent Cook.

          • fiona64

            There is no frigging burden in signing some papers that certify that contraception is against your beliefs — especially when the only offered insurance policy doesn’t supply contraception in the first goddamned place.

            Your MRA crap is duly noted.

          • David Taylor

            I’m not sure what “MRA” is in this context. I simply disagree about the impact simply signing papers might have on what is already the fragile mental state of someone who might choose to be a nun.

          • fiona64

            “Men’s Rights Activist” … which encompasses the bullshit you wrote about how men should have a right to make reproductive decisions for women with whom they sleep.

          • David Taylor

            Actually, I never said men should have a right to make decisions for women of any kind: reproduction, sex, or otherwise. If that’s what you read from what I wrote, you should read it again with the understanding that such goes completely against my moral code: each person has the right to decide what she or he does with his/her own body, and regarding other decisions that are his/her to make. However, no person has the innate right to force someone else to do anything else for him/her.

          • fiona64

            men have a risk of having their kid ‘stolen’ or being forced into having
            one they don’t want: the incidents of unwanted kids where women
            planned it are probably much higher than the incidents of the other way
            around.

            Your words, sweetie.

          • David Taylor

            Absolutely none of which says, “men should have a right to make decisions for women”. You seem to have some problems with reading comprehension.

          • fiona64

            You make it pretty clear that men should have the right to decide whether or not a woman remains pregnant, David … and you also make it clear, with your posts in this article, that women should not have access to contraception through *their own compensation packages.*

            Casse-toi.

          • David Taylor

            I am quite sure I’ve indicated I believe otherwise. Anyone should be able to use a free market. ACA is terrible because it made this a problem. Before ACA you could call any insurer and get another police.

          • fiona64

            Before ACA you could call any insurer and get another police.

            I believe you meant policy … which might have been true. Unless you were a woman. Or had a pre-existing condition. Or any number of other factors that have now been eliminated.

            You would probably drop a load in your drawers if we’d gotten what we really wanted (single-payer) instead of this. The ACA is a *start,* not an end.

            Get used to it, sugarplum. John Galt still ain’t real.

          • David Taylor

            Yep. Policy. Typos happen.

            Not really, I’d feel about the same since the ACA essentially puts the taxpayer on the hook in the long run.

          • CJ99

            Thats more than typos, you’re a willful ignoramus

          • HeilMary1

            Then why are you defending nuns who insist on ruining the health and marriages of their female employees?

          • David Taylor

            I don’t defined nuns. I defend their right to disagree with what others want and their right to their day in court to fight unjust laws. The same as I defend your right to the same. Frankly, it’s sad that someone would let not having employer sanctioned healthcare of any kind ruin their lives. If such people were smart they would vote with their feet and work elsewhere. Perhaps that is why I don’t work for any church?

          • HeilMary1

            Being disfigured, the only company willing to hire me has a church affiliation. And millions of living-wage jobs have been outsourced to overpopulated Catholic poverty pits like Latin America and the Philippines. We need a global birth strike to bring jobs back to the US.

          • CJ99

            Actually you did many times thats why your a lying dickhead.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Fragile mental state? Why are they fragile? Are they going to snap and strangle themselves with their rosary beads because someone is having non-procreative sex?

          • fiona64

            Good question … Dave, why are nuns in a fragile mental state? I’m keen to know.

          • David Taylor

            I say fragile because I have no other way to describe the absurd thinking that might lead a person to voluntarily join an organization that compels them to give up consensual sex for the rest of their life. This is more unnatural to me than sex outside of marriage.

          • HeilMary1

            They have a selfish deadly fear of obstetric bladder and bowel fistulas that they feel morally compelled to inflict on prettier, luckier “sl*tty” women. And you’re enabling them!

          • David Taylor

            ROFL!

          • fiona64

            Yes, those poor, fragile women. Just think how delicate were the sensibilities of the orders that ran the Magdalene Laundries, for example …

          • HeilMary1

            Those “fragile” battle axes are OK with priests and altar kids!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And they did some of it themselves in Ireland.

          • CJ99

            MRA = male religitard asshole, meaning you.

          • RonPaul2012

            It must kill the nuns to sign employees cheques knowing that those cheques will be cashed and used to buy condoms!

          • Ella Warnock

            If I worked for nuns (or Hobby Lobby) I’d blow all my paychecks on weed, Jack, and porn.

          • fiona64

            “Gal.”

            That’s lovely, David.

            I’m guessing you’re single … and I’m not even surprised.

          • David Taylor

            Once again, you’ve got me wrong, fiona64. I’m married and have 4 children.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Your poor wife. I hope you do not have daughters. You are a freak. My weirdo alarm is clanging bigtime.

          • David Taylor

            I’m sure it is, Plum: no doubt is is going off constantly since you are always with yourself and you one sick puppy.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Now that is two women whose arguments you cannot address that you have called crazy. You are a joke.

          • David Taylor

            With how many crazy people there are in society, it does not surprise me to find online in any day more than one crazy man or woman.

          • CJ99

            His entire “family” is nothing more than a product of his perverted fantasy.

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry for the whole lot of them.

          • David Taylor

            You should be happy to have them in society. They will pay the taxes that support you.

          • fiona64

            By which you indicate what? Your belief that I do not pay taxes?

            Dude, at this point you are an exercise in self-parody.

          • David Taylor

            It seem safe to surmise that are the type that looks for other people to meet your needs.

          • fiona64

            Well, then, you’re an even bigger imbecile than I previously imagined. Suffice it to say, that is quite an accomplishment.

          • CJ99

            Stop the freakin planet I’m getting off. I don’t even want to be called human alongside that disgusting freakshow calling himself “david taylor”

          • CJ99

            Those you so happily insult with your insolent bullshit are the very people supporting you jackass.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Me too. Can you imagine living with this guy?

          • HeilMary1

            Hypocrite you had a vasectomy for your wallet, but you oppose women getting sterilized to SAVE THEIR OWN LIVES.

          • David Taylor

            Actually, I had one to ensure the safety and health of a woman..

          • HeilMary1

            Then you selfishly believe NO OTHER women have the same right to life and health! You’re a pig!

          • David Taylor

            Nice distortion.

          • colleen2

            I don’t believe you.

          • CJ99

            He’s lied so bloody often nobody believes him. And yeah thats yet another 1 of his lies.

          • CJ99

            Of course he’s single, I realized that in his first few posts. After all what woman would be caught dead with such a bigoted piece of human waste? Never mind that he’s so unattractive he makes even me look good in comparison.

          • HeilMary1

            His type in DC loved lecturing me on my offensive lack of centerfold beauty!

          • CJ99

            mary I’m 1 guy who won’t complain about you since I’ve never met you in person nor am I anywhere close to brad pitt myself. Though I do support what you stand for and I understand the reasons for it as much as I’m able.

          • HeilMary1

            Men in DC, especially spoiled aging GOP bachelors, openly complain that they’d only consider dating and marrying half-age hotties, then they wonder why 30-something old maids give up and use sperm banks to have at least one child!

          • colleen2

            David sounds like he’s about 65 and divorced 3 times. Perhaps he should look for a date at an RNC or ‘libertarian’ function.

          • fiona64

            I’m willing to believe he has a wife and four children … all of whom are probably cowed due to the bullying they receive daily. :-(

          • David Taylor

            I challenge you to find one nun that is OK with giving a convicted pedophile priest Viagra. As for adultery, the priests non-illegal sexual activity is between them, their maker, and those that are involved with them — they deserve the same treatment as the nuns in that regard.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, these nuns aren’t protesting their plan’s free Viagra or checking the priests’ and male employees’ medical records for inappropriate Viagra use. And if you are OK with priests using Viagra with underage and legal age males and females, and then forcing abortions on the females, then you clearly have a MURDEROUS DOUBLE STANDARD regarding who can and who can’t have safe sex. You are a mother-killing PIG.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You filthy pig. Now we are down to it. This is about sex for you. You are a sexually dysfuntional authoritarian with a hardon for women you cannot satisfy. It is not women’s fault that nobody will do you for free, Pal. It is not women’s fault that you cannot get it up emotionally or physically. Your arguments are shit.

          • David Taylor

            Oh Plum. Your bigotry makes me laugh. Obviously you are a racist sexist who does not believe anyone should have an opinion you disagree with at all. Further, you are just silly enough to think you can tell a persons race by their profile picture, or tell how smart or not smart they are from a few online posts.

          • HeilMary1

            Oh Dave, you think it’s holy libertarianism to kick females into early graves on behalf of pedophile priests. You belong in Nazi Germany.

          • David Taylor

            You need help.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the enabler of mother killers here, jerk.

          • CJ99

            You being a gigantic asshole doesn’t make her racist.

          • Arval Becker

            You seem to have the opinion that once an employer hires a person that they own them and all they do even off of the job. That ideal went out with the Robber Barons of the early 20th Century.

            A religious corporation cannot force their employees who will probably not be the same religion to follow the religious tenets of the employer. This is something that you and the nuns seem to forget. Just like you cannot fire an employee for being a differing political party or being for unions.

          • CJ99

            the real problem is the robber barons have never really left us. they’ve just cloaked themselves in a new disguise and use an entirely dfferent set of orwellian nuspeak from their predecessors a century ago.

          • BJ Survivor

            You seem to have the opinion that once an employer hires a person female that they own them and all they do even off of the job.

            FIFY

          • RonPaul2012

            Paying your employees in *money* allows them to do things you disagree with.

            Better not pay employees or even have any!

          • David Taylor

            If you really feel there is no difference between money and a signed letter, please, give me your paycheck and I will give you a signed letter. This argument does not hold water because money is used for every purpose in commerce but the letter is only used for one purpose – it’s intent is clear…

          • HeilMary1

            Why do you keep pretending the nuns’ religiously exempt insurance company isn’t also exempt?

          • David Taylor

            Why do you keep presuming that I presume anything?

          • HeilMary1

            Because you pretend signing the exemption will then enable employees to access contraception! — it won’t because the particular contracted insurer IS ALSO EXEMPT, dummy! Now, if the nuns contracted with Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Aetna, etc., you would have a point that the nuns would be deprived of inflicting harm on their employees.

          • CJ99

            cause without your idiotic and quite baseless presumtions you’ve got nothing but flatulance.

          • HeilMary1

            He could fill the Goodyear blimp with hot air!

          • CJ99

            I’m reminded more of the Hindenburg.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ll bring the matches!

          • David Taylor

            I guess at least a few people here don’t like our laws against pedophilia, or feel the government belongs in our bedrooms, or feel religious people have no rights. Sad, but there are people in America that do not deserve the liberties for which I have served to protect.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU don’t understand the concepts of liberties.

          • David Taylor

            I respectfully disagree. What I understand is that people claim ‘liberty’ while using it to deprive others of their goods and freedoms – by violence by way of supposed government.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re letting heretic nuns commit criminal Munchausen by Proxy abuse against their female employees. Abusing women as human puppy mills for pedophile priests is evil and CRIMINAL. You want the nuns to violate their employees’ right to life and reproductive health. You’ve perverted the liberty concept.

          • David Taylor

            I am not letting anything. I am not Catholic and don’t work /w nuns. Presuming such is silly. Not helping women get birth control is not abusive and does not prevent employees from taking care of themselves no more than my employer not buying me steak every day would be them making me starve.

          • HeilMary1

            Your fig leaf defenses don’t change your Darwinist defense of the mother-killing nuns. Their employees pay for their insurance. They aren’t paid enough to pay double and triple to outside doctors and pharmacies to get marriage-saving, life-saving, house-saving birth control! While a $10 steak isn’t necessary for your health (and you don’t need a prescription!), $100 per month birth control is essential for women’s lives and marriages. Would you patronize a restaurant that 25 days out of every month randomly only served you sewer water and moldy crackers because it believed you should practice holy fasting most days, but made you guess which days?? That is how insulting NFP is to couples and it doesn’t even work! Meanwhile, priests are never punished for forcing abortions on their victims/conquests.

          • fiona64

            The whole point of contraceptive coverage was what is called health care parity. Numerous plans refused to cover contraception, whilst simultaneously covering Viagra for its off-label use (treating erectile dysfunction; it’s actually a cardiac med). I’m going to hazard a guess that you have no objection to Grandpa taking pills to get wood, even as you object to women being able to control their fertility.

          • David Taylor

            Yes, off label use of Viagra – such as prescribing it to women – has been done. This is not a care parity issue – if it was, Vasagel would be approved in the US instead of just in India. Men deserve parity in birth control too. But, employers, catholic or otherwise should not have to pay for it — and it is stupid my plan (since I cannot father more children) should have it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually using Viagra for erectile dysfunction is an off-label usage, since, as Fiona mentioned above, it is a cardiac medication. And it is very much a care parity issue. ED is not life-threatening–it’s only an issue if you want to have sex. Why should we pay for it?

          • HeilMary1

            Because Dave needs it with his mistresses and priests need it with their altar boys and girls.

          • HeilMary1

            So it’s OK for you male hypocrites to get your free vasectomies to avoid annoying child support that cuts into your mistress expenses!

          • David Taylor

            Free? No. As a male, I had to pay for mine out right. And, it was at the request of my wife so she did not die trying to have another child – after one of ours spent 14 days in the neonatal unit. I know quite well just how wrong and expensive pregnancies can go.

          • HeilMary1

            But you oppose the same maternal life-saving options for OTHER WOMEN! How selfish and criminal of you!

          • David Taylor

            Oppose? No. Think religious organizations should be left alone to make their own decisions about how they will or will not support it – yes. You act like women are invalid and cannot do anything without their employer.

          • HeilMary1

            I’m facially disfigured by my anti-contraception terrorist mom and am barely tolerated at a right-wing company that is difficult to commute to. If I didn’t have this job, NO ONE ELSE would hire me! Jobs don’t grow on trees for people disabled by your mother-killing nuns.

          • David Taylor

            It’s unfortunate that you are disfigured. However, i suspect your attitude had more to do with your lack of job prospects than your physical features. Jobs grow on trees for only a small handful of uber wealthy kids who parents are idiots and regret spoon feeding them later.

          • HeilMary1

            My attitude is great and companies have told me outright that my scars are the problem.

          • fiona64

            Thank you for proving, once and for all, what a disgusting piece of shite you really are. Thanks to the “free market” you champion, every state in the union is now an “at-will” employment state. That means that if a given company only wants to hire physically beautiful people, they *can* — even if a less attractive person is better qualified.

            And you wonder why I think “libertarianism” is such a steaming load of dung …

          • CJ99

            Actually thats been happening quite a while. I’m qualified in my field with experience. Two things make finding work difficult, 1 being whoring of jobs to 3rd world countries with no worker protection at all (economic slavery) the other being my appearance is rather bland despite my having clean clothes & the fact I make a habit of personal cleanliness.

            Look around at any news or talk show on tv. You’ll see far more attractive blonde women there wearing expensive clothes than you’ll ever see on the street, even inside a gated community. That’s just one example of many.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I know … GOP/Libertarian St. Ronnie Reagan started dismantling the Fair Labor Standards Act practically the minute he got into office … and Dubya finished what Ronnie started. It’s extremely disturbing.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not understand health care. You do not understand conscientious objection. But here you are, bloviating away.

          • fiona64

            Back away from the Ayn Rand, sweetie. I promise, taking off the tin foil beanie won’t hurt.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What is wrong with socialism. It is as American as apple pie.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I see you brought your dogwhistles with you.

          • David Taylor

            I have no doubt you failed to understand it.

          • CJ99

            Thats not socialism, thats what you’re attempting while projecting the same on the rest of humanity. And drop the attempt at respect. you never respected anybody else in your life & it shows.

          • fiona64

            I guess the people who read Ayn Rand without understanding that it’s piss-poor fiction should go back to Civics 101.

          • David Taylor

            I wouldn’t know. I’ve not read any Any Rand.

          • fiona64

            Right …

          • colleen2

            The fiolks who post here aren’t generally conservative men and so no, I don’t believe you will find much support for any sort of rapist here, much less child rapists.
            I am touched that so many conservative ‘men’ are empathetic towards rapists and so concerned about their rights. I had believed that conservative American ‘men’ were incapable of empathy.

          • David Taylor

            Collen2, you seem confused. Please read what I posted again:

            “I guess at least a few people here don’t like our laws against pedophilia, or feel the government belongs in our bedrooms, or feel religious people have no rights. Sad, but there are people in America that do not deserve the liberties for which I have served to protect.”

            This means I do like the laws against these pedophilia, etc. Anyone who knows anything about military service – knows that what we served and protected was neither these specific laws nor criminals – but our life style free from tyranny.

            BTW: I don’t identify as conservative or liberal. Somewhere in between, sure.

          • colleen2

            I don’t care what you identify as. WE all recognize a misogynistic conservative pos when we read one.

          • HeilMary1

            For women to be free from tyranny, they must have access to self-defending contraception, just as diabetics have the right to insulin.

          • David Taylor

            Perhaps for victims of rape; but what women choose to do to themselves differs greatly from diabetics. Might as well lump in free food for everyone all the time – it’s a life necessity. And free clothing, it’s a necessity. And, free …. whatever anyone else might have a slim chance of showing a necessity for….

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have a degree in obstetrics and gynecology?

          • HeilMary1

            Nobody is asking for free anything except your billionaire fascists who demand slave labor from us peons and pedophile priests who demand free sex from the orphans of the women those priests murdered. As someone who indulges in safe sex yourself, why are you insisting sex be deadly and costly for everyone else? Dems are only asking that the insurance WE ALREADY PAID FOR OURSELVES cover what we need it for! You get Viagra and we get deadly pregnancy-avoiding BC pills! Why do you see other people’s sex lives as completely wasteful and immoral while yours is above reproach? What is so sanctified about your penis that you deserve safe bankruptcy-avoiding recreational lust, while we deserve lady parts-shredding torture, death and bankruptcy?

          • David Taylor

            Heil, you do yourself a disservice by cutting your credibility with me yourself when you claim I care about other’s sex lives. That’s their business until they make it the trouble of someone else. I think you are in denial about the sexual risk for men.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU are in denial about the MUCH GREATER risks ALL women face. You’ve made clear your psychopathic contempt for everyone else’s human rights. You are a criminal fascist in search of a Fourth Reich and have hitched your Nazi wagon to the Nazi nuns. We’re not your incubating slaves. If a vasectomy is good enough for you, BC pills should be available to us wherever we work.

          • David Taylor

            Not at all, I just 1) don’t care to ignore one sex because of over-focus on the other, 2) believe each person is ultimately responsible for only themselves, 3) know the Nazi party was socialist and that we as a country are becoming more socialist – and that isn’t a good thing.

          • HeilMary1

            The Nazis were primarily corporate slave-owning fascist looters, misogynists, and gay-bashers who struck deals with the Vatican and the CIA to smuggle 100,000 Nazis to the Americas to resurrect their Fourth Reich.

          • CJ99

            As Mary stated nazis are fascists, the only way this country will be the same is when you and your slimey ilk get your way which the rest of us are fighting against.

            “when fascism comes to america it’ll come carrying the cross & wrapped in the flag”. Look it up.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            WTF is wrong with socialism? The Socialist Party candidate for POTUS won 16% of the popular vote in a four man race in 1916. And the Nazis were fascists.
            You are dogmatic and ignorant.

          • CJ99

            You who screams insults against the rest of humanity while lying through your teeth to do so gets to lecture NOBODY about credibility.

          • fiona64

            I think you are in denial about the sexual risk for men.

            Oh, here we go again. Please explain, in detail, what risks men face due to gestation. I’ll wait.

          • fiona64

            Those damned poor people, not wanting to starve to death, or freeze to death. They just need to work harder. They’re already working three part-time jobs, with no benefits? Let them find a fourth, instead of being such lazy losers! Freedom! /libertarianism in a nutshell

          • CJ99

            Colleen know exactly what you said and what you stand for which is nothing to be proud of on your part.

          • HeilMary1

            Catholics don’t have the right to force deadly bankrupting obstetric injuries on all women just to impress pedophile priests. And Catholic bishops don’t have the right to keep pedophile priests in schools where they can keep preying.

          • David Taylor

            Pedophiles/Rapist may force things upon people; but by not endorsing purchase of birth control, law abiding Catholics are certainly not. The two are unrelated issues – except that they involve sex organs. We can actually outlaw criminal sexual contact and not mandate state provided or employer supported birth control.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Catholics spent literally centuries shielding abusive priests from secular law enforcement, hiding their crimes and shuffling them from parish to parish for fresh victims.

          • David Taylor

            And? Have you ever heard: Two wrongs don’t make a right? What was done in the past by ‘Catholics’ should not subject today’s individual, regardless of beliefs, to any more or less.

          • HeilMary1

            Birth control is a human right. Murderous religious cults don’t have the right to enslave women as incubators for pedophile priests. In WWII, Cardinal Montini aka Poop Paul VI deliberately funded Nazi Catholic Ustasha death camps to exterminate 1 MILLION Serb Christians, including pregnant women and their “heretic” fetuses, and you defend RCC fascist demands?!?! You defend tyranny!

          • HeilMary1

            Village Idiot, denial of contraception grossly maims, murders and bankrupts women and RUINS NATIONS. RCC-ruined Latin America and the Philippines are prime examples. America’s middle class was created by MARGARET SANGER whose provision of contraception freed couples from incubating poverty and premature deaths. Men used to work 100 hour weeks just to feed 10-30 kids each! Do you want most Americans to live homeless on garbage heaps like the Filipinos?!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Who is “we?, Whitebread.” Catholic institutions that employ people must follow employment law or get out of the education/health care business.
            Conscientious religious objection means the objector (RCC) must take upon itself the burden of its conscientious objection. That is the nature of CO. Transferring the burden of the CO to the employee is not conscientions objection. It is assault/tyrrany.
            You are an authoritarian Stupid.

          • David Taylor

            ‘We’,is the same same one found in “We the People” – the people upon whose behalf elected office make and change laws. Calling me a ‘Whitebread’ is racist.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No, calling whitebread is saying you are one of these folks Altemeyer talks about.

            ……………………………:

            Probably about 20 to 25 percent of the adult American population is so right-wing authoritarian, so scared, so self-righteous, so ill-informed, and so dogmatic that nothing you can say or do will change their minds. They would march America into a dictatorship and probably feel that things had improved as a result. … And they are so submissive to their leaders that they will believe and do virtually anything they are told. They are not going to let up and they are not going away.

          • David Taylor

            Calling someone ‘Whitebread’ is a racist slur.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Really? Which bread represents the traditional colors/races? Let us see. Challah is yellow so that can be the Asians. Russian Black Bread is darkish so that can be the blacks. What are we going to do about the Native Americans? You are dogged but you are not intelligent. And unfortunately, you probably vote.

          • David Taylor

            ‘Whitebread’ is synonymous with ‘Cracker’ – both are racial slurs. What am I going to do with the Native American’s? Well, since I am part that, and my wife is mostly that, I’m sure we’ll have some fun pow-wows..and laugh about how bigots online think everyone that looks light skinned and is male must have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

            Apparently, Plum, the other 80-75% is so leftist, so self centered, so racist, so bigoted, there is no hope for them either.

          • HeilMary1

            Does your wife know you oppose the right to life of all other women you aren’t personally banging? Too bad she didn’t find someone better than you. And the RCC has a hideous record of raping, beating, force-converting, medically trafficking, starving and murdering indigenous people everywhere.

          • David Taylor

            No. But she knows you are a nutter.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Now we get to it. If women are passionate about their freedom and the injustice done to us we are crazy. Swine.

          • fiona64

            Of course … because if we aren’t sitting down and being quiet/”appropriate,” we need “help.” The attitude is positively medieval.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh Fiona, I want to hurt him so bad. So bad. Shame I am nonviolent.

          • HeilMary1

            He and the wifey can have all the safe sex they want because they’re “special”. The rest of us “unworthies” be damned to death.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yep. That is the size of it. Sickening is it not?

          • HeilMary1

            Then she is as stupid and selfish as you! A Nazi moll or slavery plantation belle, take your pick.

          • CJ99

            Almonds
            Macadamias
            peanuts,
            coconuts,
            walnuts,
            Which are you?

          • HeilMary1

            He’s a cherry pit!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Whitebread = bland, conformist, ordinary. Last time I am going to tell you.

          • David Taylor

            That’s the kind of crap people claim about cracker, N****, and most other racial slurs, Plum.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the misogynist who believes only your own wife is excused from killer baby milling.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have idea what color I am. i already presented you with proof you are wrong. I will not respond to this again.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That what I always whitebread meant–bland, tasteless–kind of like a Pat Boone song or the Lawrence Welk band. I never thought of it as a racist slur and I’m ginger–pale and freckled–you don’t get much whiter than me :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            This assH does not respond to proof. It thinks it has found a chink it can hammer at to change the focus from his lack of facts and his lack of compassion.

            I would hurt this sucker if he said some of the shyte he has said to me in real life.

          • CJ99

            he won’t since he’s a coward who sits in his basement munching KD & trolling all day. If he ever did and said the same to me, he’d soon find himself wishing for an alien abduction instead.

          • HeilMary1

            Who knew my cracker addiction made me racist? I thought it just made me fat on top of ugly!

          • Jennifer Starr

            ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

          • HeilMary1

            Hugs for you too!

          • CJ99

            Veggie thins are great but I prefer those sour cream & chives crackers. Yummalicious stuff ;P

          • HeilMary1

            Nabisco Triscuits with Dill and Olive Oil! Better than sex (or so I’ve heard, to paraphrase Whoopie Goldberg in “Sister Act”).

          • CJ99

            When I was a kid there was bacon flavour, maybe thats a guy thing though.

          • HeilMary1

            Love the bacon flavors too!

          • CJ99

            So bacon crackers aren’t sexist. I’m relieved, hafta hit the grocery store in a few minutes now I’m tempted again.

          • CJ99

            I might, my last sunburn was a decade ago, all down my right side at the beach. I looked like a strawberry swirly for a month after.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ouch and (((((hugs))))). I remember my last sunburn–got blisters on my nose and even sunburnt where my hair is parted. Brushing my hair was excruciating for about a week and a half. Always wear sunscreen now but still come out of the sun with a couple of new freckles.

          • HeilMary1

            From my rotting skin (radiation dermatitis?), now banned x-ray lamp burns and regular sunburn, I learned that long hot steam showers enabled one to gently slough off the layers of dead skin.

          • CJ99

            If I had it that bad I’d be dead by now. dunno why I’ve got sensitive skin but for me being caucasian is no advantage!

          • HeilMary1

            Me neither!

          • CJ99

            thanks,

            The constant itching & burning was rough for a couple months. Doing anything even standing still got annoying.

          • CJ99

            Wonderbread is a descriptor applied to racists themselves not their victims.

          • fiona64

            born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

            Privilege has NOTHING to do with money. It is unearned esteem and rights.

            Let me put it this way; a white kid walking down the street wearing a hoody and carrying a can of iced tea and a bag of skittles would not be presumed a trouble-maker and shot. And if that did happen, the country would be in a giant snit about the murder of an innocent youth … as opposed to what happened when a black kid was murdered for no other reason than being black in public and the assailant got away with it.

          • David Taylor

            Malarkey.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not malarkey. A long while back, around ’91 or so, my best friend and I went to the mall to scout for prom dresses. I was white, she was black, we were dressed pretty much the same and actually she lived in a slightly more upscale neighborhood than I did. We had different styles in mind and decided to browse in different sections. Only one of us was followed by one of the store clerks, though–and it wasn’t me. That’s what privilege is.

          • David Taylor

            And, when I was walking as a teen, I was stopped and field interviewed instead of my friends who were clearly not white. We were together, but the cop stopped me, not all of us, for a pat down – even though we were all doing nothing but meandering. Guess he thought I was the rich white drug kingpin in the mostly black neighborhood.

            You presume that skin tone was why your friend was stopped. But, as a former Navy LEO, I can tell you there are numerous reasons to stop someone – any one of which could have been the real reason. Of course, there is bigotry — it could be that person was that did the stopping was a bigot. They come in all shades.

          • CJ99

            Again none of this fallacious story isn’t made up.

          • HeilMary1

            Oprah and Obama get that too! Oprah has been snubbed at hoity-toity stores in Paris, and white women still clutch their purses in elevators when he gets on! So sad!

          • CJ99

            Pizzabanana fool.

          • fiona64

            You’re doing a fabulous job of proving my point for me …

          • CJ99

            When I was a kid growing up I was often called honkey but I survived it. You however are still & always will be hate filled trash.

          • HeilMary1

            I was called redskin and a lot worse.

          • CJ99

            What about rye bread or melba toast?

          • CJ99

            Calling you human is a racial slur against the rest of humanity.

            What you are is trash & you disgust those of us who really are human.

          • CJ99

            this is still on my mind, while your entirely right I’d put the number who fit that description much higher, 50% minimum with most of the remainder so apathetic that when (not if) we get the religious reich the fanatics want the rest won’t even noticed what’s happened.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You and I ain’t WE. Your idea of religious liberty chaps my behind. Not going to happen. And I am religious.

          • David Taylor

            Your probably right. I doubt you are even American and that would mean you are not part of “We the People”.

          • HeilMary1

            You don’t include American women in “We the People”.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Laughing at you.

          • CJ99

            If you dare be proud to be american the rest of America should be very ashamed. If I could be other than human after witnessing your sleaze I’d do it in a hot minute.

          • CJ99

            You do not speak for the people. the only time you see humanity is when you look what your stepping on.

            As has been explained to you before dimwit, 1 caucasian calling another whitebread isn’t racism, its not even cause your caucasian, its cause your a sick & very foul excuse for a human. Btw, whitebread is the least offensive descriptor that could be applied to you. the only offense in that would be against bread DUH!

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t get me started on my favorite breads!

          • CJ99

            villagio with sesame seeds on top. the delicious irony is it really is white bread ;P

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Russian Black Bread with Raisins is so good.

          • CJ99

            That got my upvote on raisins alone. I do like raisin bread. toast with sugar & cinamon is also yummy, but being diabetic I can no longer eat it GRRRRR. Why do I like food that doesn’t like me?

          • HeilMary1

            Green olive ciabatta!

          • CJ99

            got 2 words for you:

            garlic bread

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Catholic employers are suing for the right to break the law.

          • HeilMary1

            As if they haven’t broken enough laws already!

          • David Taylor

            Technically speaking, Catholic employers are suiting to have the law’s interpretation changed. This is no different than what other groups do when they disagree with the law or believe it unconstitutional. History shows this is sometimes successful – just like in Rowe V. Wade – suit forced law changes.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The interpretation of the law was changed to suit Catholic needs. Do not mess with me, Whitebread. I am informed. And Catholic.

          • David Taylor

            Nice, so you are an informed catholic who uses racist slurs. You need to go to confession.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I thought you said you were not religious, WB? Were you lying? Hmmmm.

          • David Taylor

            No, I don’t believe so. I said I was not Catholic. I do have religious beliefs. No doubt, some of those go against the mainstream as I believe all churches should be taxed as businesses – though I prefer the FairTax.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            IOW a real nutter who cannot do arithmetic.

          • CJ99

            Yet your own tripe is so obnoxious for you confession would be utterly useless, even if you didn’t constantly lie.

          • fiona64

            Roe v. Wade. Don’t talk about it if you can’t spell it.

          • David Taylor

            Nobody likes a grammar Nazi. BTW: I never said spelling was my strong suit.

          • HeilMary1

            Neither are human rights your strong suit.

          • David Taylor

            Birth control is not a human right. Heck, it didn’t even exist at all not long ago – so how could it be a right? Are you saying we get new rights just because of new inventions? Wow I need to invent more so I can have more rights.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Contraceptives and contraceptive practices have existed for centuries. The Egyptians practiced contraception. Elizabethans used condoms. You are ignorant and you want to impose your ignorance on me.

          • David Taylor

            No, Heil has already declared elsewhere here that such form of contraceptives were out of bounds. And, besides are you saying the new right came into existence when condoms were ‘discovered’? This is not a human right at all.

          • HeilMary1

            So did you have a vasectomy to simply avoid funeral bills or because your wife’s life matters a bit to you? You really are a Nazi monster!

          • David Taylor

            It was for our mutual convince and benefit. — and because it was easier on her than having her cut open to tie tubes.

          • HeilMary1

            And if the nuns had their way, no sterilization method would be LEGAL for you or her, even if her death was guaranteed, but you got yours, so the rest of us be kicked into early graves for the nuns’ “religious liberty”! You’re a selfish pig!

          • David Taylor

            Yet another reason why I’d never become catholic. Instead of making them sign papers for their employees – I prefer to vote against making laws from such stupid ideas as ‘no sterilization method would be LEGAL’

          • HeilMary1

            You make no sense!

          • Jennifer Starr

            They were sewing condoms out of leather in the 17th century, mainly to protect themselves from the pox. They’ve been using contraceptive and abortifacient herbs for centuries. For as long as pregnancy has existed, people have been finding ways to prevent it or to end it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            “Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has a right to, but himself.” (John Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government)

          • HamletsMill

            Plummie! You are in good form today as usual! I hope you are feeling better!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Marginally better. My nose is a fountain despite the Nyquil. I know you did not need to think about that. I am grumpy and my body hurts. So I am beating a misogynist right winger for fun. How you?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hope you feel better soon, Plum :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Me too. I am foggy in the brain. Thanks for caring.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Me too. Thank you. Especially since I am so bad tempered when I am sick.

          • CJ99

            Feel no guilt for trouncing that piece of human filth Plum, I’m doing the same. If I still had that neon pink yardstick my mother routinely beat with as a kid I’d be putting it to similar uses on him. It would for certain be going where no man has gone before.

          • HeilMary1

            And his beloved nuns would be beating him and his wife for his sinful vasectomy!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Glad for the help, CJ. This troll is filth.

          • fiona64

            So, a woman has no right to avoid pregnancy?

            Laughable.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Or STDs, apparently. He doesn’t even feel his wife has a right to safe sex.

          • HeilMary1

            Birth control and abortions have been around for thousands of years, Village Idiot. Avoiding childbirth death and injuries most certainly are human rights. Was keeping your wife alive with your vasectomy not about her right to life and safe sex? Or are you hiding mistresses from her??

          • David Taylor

            Humans have been around longer. So, this is a new right people claim not something innate to humans. The choice to limit my ability to procreate is multifaceted but it did not include her right to safe sex. She could always get an STD if she chose to be promiscuous.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Humans have been around longer? Really? I’m sort of getting the idea that history is not your strong suit, because that’s simply not true. And what if the husband cheats and brings an STD home to his wife? What is that part of –‘for better or worse’? Some god’s punishment? Safe sex is important, not just for individuals, but for the public health in general.

          • David Taylor

            Yes, it seems obvious. Since humans had to exist to invent both control forms, and since without humans no need for human birth control existed – the invention of human birth control came after humans. Thus, humans have been around longer than human birth control. No rocket science or history lessons required there.

            Yes, either party can cheat and spread disease.

          • fiona64

            I’m betting your vasectomy was covered by insurance; many insurers did not cover tubal ligation, even when they covered vasectomy … until the ACA forced them to do so.

          • David Taylor

            That’s the great think about a free market. Truth is, most insurance policies did cover tubals prior to the ACA – and if someone was on insurance that didn’t they were free to acquire different insurance. Truth is, vasectomy has been covered longer because there are still no other available, effective, birth control for men. Women have alternatives that men do not. And, that will be the case until Vasagel is available in the US.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And they covered abortions too. You “religious” want special rights.

          • fiona64


            Truth is, most insurance policies did cover tubals prior to the ACA

            Truth is, you’re full of it. The majority of policies considered tubal ligation “medically unnecessary,” and did not cover it.

          • HeilMary1

            Goddess has peppered the earth with hundreds of natural abortifacients, including coffee, tea, holy wine, tobacco, ginger, red clover, wild carrot seeds, you name it. If Goddess disapproved of non-procreative sex, She wouldn’t have give us hundreds of herbal options, you idiot. No woman wants her private parts shredded, leaking urine and feces and infected with sepsis from childbirth, hence the desperation for abortifacient plants, etc.

          • David Taylor

            I am not sure what you point is here, HielMary. non-Procreative, consensual, sex is good! It’s probably one of the few things you and can agree upon. And, yet another reason I am not Catholic. I could never be a part of the Catholic church which in my opinion puts too many unnatural constraints upon its believers. More power to those who do – their right – but not my choice.

          • CJ99

            yet you just contradicted your previous scumbag statement hoping women who have non procreative sex get STD’s. You’re not only human excrement but the must incredible liar this planet has yet seen.

          • HeilMary1

            Then why are you defending their attacks on everyone’s access, including YOUR’S, to affordable safe sex?! If you knew the ancient and modern history of contraception, you would be personally fearful of the nuns coming after YOUR safe sex! Catholic Hitler had thousands of Aryans imprisoned and executed for suspected abortions and criminalized family planning.

          • CJ99

            Off topic I know but coffee & tea are both pretty good anyways (mostly) this coming from a guy who’s never been pregnant.

          • CJ99

            Again you’ve just proven your own hatred for women. You are indeed the worst form of human scum imaginable.

          • CJ99

            True but its a huge stretch that he could even date much less find & keep both a wife & mistress with his bigotry & unbelievable ego.

          • HeilMary1

            Maybe he has TWO blow-up dolls?

          • Jennifer Starr

            In case one has a puncture.

          • CJ99

            No doubt both you & jennifer are right on that 1. It’s pretty obvious actually

          • fiona64

            Birth control is not a human right. Heck, it didn’t even exist at all not long ago

            Oh. My. God.

            Is anyone really this ignorant?

            http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/04/the-fascinating-history-of-birth-control/

          • HeilMary1

            Sadly, yes, he is as stupid as Todd Akins and Associates.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Claims to have a wife that has had four children. I do not believe that. He would at least be housebroken.

          • CJ99

            Theres your only true statement, that being you support a fascist theocracy.

          • fiona64

            Nobody likes a misogynist, BTW.

        • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

          there is no “free market” there is only the capitalists’ ruthless exploitation of humanity which is only possible by the full coercive force of the Police State in protecting and enforcing it

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You participate in car insurance, I assume. That is mandated. Explain to me how health care is different.

          • David Taylor

            Car insurance is completely unrelated to this issue. 1) Car insurance is not mandated. People do not have to get it if they do not have a car. Even in those states where it is required if you own a care, one can self insure instead if one can afford it. And, in no state does an employee require an employers signature saying that since the employer doesn’t provide coverage some other agency auto to be entitled to do such.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Quibbling again. An insurance pool is an insurance pool. And an apple ain’t a banana. You are dogged but you are not intelligent. Dogmatism is a sure sign that the person has no idea why he believes what he believes but he believes the shit out of it anyway.

          • HeilMary1

            Dogmatism is a sure sign of mental illness, bigotry, and stupidity.

          • CJ99

            Thats why he rambled on about car insurance, someones karma ran over his dogma.

    • fiona64

      If the government would get their hands off the free market, we would not have this pickle at all.

      John Galt ain’t real, David.

      • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

        there is no “free market” there is only the capitalists’ ruthless exploitation of humanity which is only possible by the full coercive force of the Police State in protecting and enforcing it

        • fiona64

          Deleted.

      • Jennifer Starr

        John Galt was essentially a Gary Stu–the male equivalent of a Mary Sue–one of the many one-dimensional characters to populate Rand’s poorly written novels.

      • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

        lol

    • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

      what about Liberal Democracy and Internationalism, same standard?

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        He is an oily perverted anal aperture authoritarian. Thinks he is for liberty. He is not going to get it.

        • HeilMary1

          He means “liberty” in the Orwellian Nazi sense.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh yeah. “Freedom is slavery. War is Peace. Ignorance is strength.”

          • HeilMary1

            Death is Life. Raping kids is Abstinence. GOP wife dumping is marital fidelity. We could have fun with this.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Excellent.

        • http://www.myspace.com/btdsloveshack blazintommyd

          lol – in a Literary sense, impersonal and abstract, Fabulous Description ♥♥ :)

    • RonPaul2012

      The nuns also have a right to refuse to pay their employees because omfg, the employees might use the money for something the nuns disagree with, which violates the nun’s religions freedom!!!

      That is the argument you are making, and it is FAIL.

      • David Taylor

        If you really feel there is no difference between money and a signed letter, please, give me your paycheck and I will give you a signed letter. This argument does not hold water because money is used for every purpose in commerce but the letter is only used for one purpose – it’s intent is clear.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You are quibbling. Respond to the excellent point made by RonPaul2012.
          You cannot respond with anything but “Yes, but …” because she hit the essential issue square on.

          • David Taylor

            Actually, I did respond. You just didn’t like my answer. RonPaul2012 mistakenly equates an employees pay as being equal to an employeer providing a signature on a document that is not compensation. Hence my point, if someone wants to trade, I can give signatures on paper for paychecks.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A bond is a letter, a piece of paper, with a signature on it. Worth a great deal and excellent compensation for any trade. I am a Catholic.What are we trading here, Perverino?

            Does a Jehovah’s witness who employs a 100 people get an exemption from covering blood transfusions? Do Adventists get to provide no insurance at all? Address this point.

            Religious freedom means I am free of YOUR RELIGiON and anybody else’s. If a rape victim needs the MAP and a Nun has religious scruples, who gets served? I say it is triage. A Nun is wounded only in her “scruples.” A bleeding cowering rape victim is wounded in every way. That is why Catholic hospitals are now compelled by law to offer the MAP.

            If the Nun does not want to meet the standard of medical care for that rape victim, she must get out of the business of medicine. Not deprive the rape victim. The conscientious objector bears the burden of CO.

          • HeilMary1

            Asshat you keeps ignoring that the nuns’ insurance is ALSO EXEMPT so signing that paper STILL keeps female employees in deadly incubating slavery. But don’t let the TRUTH spoil your toddler hissy fit!

          • fiona64

            He’s a typical “libertarian” male. “Free market!” “Freedom of association!” “Just go get a different job if you don’t like the insurance.”

            In other words, he’s got his head in the damn sand … and is arguing about something that doesn’t affect him one way or the other. (Another part of Randian objectivism that libertarian men love is the chauvinism …)

          • CJ99

            Yeah he doesn’t realize while his heads in the sand his wide butt’s waving in the air.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            ‘Would you pay your kid’s allowance in MJ if you lived in a place where it was legal? Probably not.”

            ……………….
            Depends on the kid. If it were the Newtown shooter, I probably would.

          • David Taylor

            Oh, so are you saying if was needed, you’d only give it as an allowance and not just every time the kid said it was needed? (Nice extreme case btw).

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the one who opposes gun background checks!

          • CJ99

            What would be uncovered in his background check? a great deal no doubt & none of it fine or upstanding

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What did you say?

          • CJ99

            Bullshit is never an answer.

        • Jennifer Starr

          No one is making the nuns pay for anything.

          • David Taylor

            Oh? Then this whole thread is moot since by that argument the birth control is ‘free’ to nuns as they do not have to pay for it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The article already states that they don’t have to pay for it.

          • David Taylor

            Oh, yes, my point is: ultimately someone must pay for it. The manufacturers simply do not make it out of the goodness of their hearts. With regard to the letter, there is a cost. The cost to produce it, the cost to ink it, the cost to retain a copy of it to defend against lawsuits that say it was denied, the cost of the printer wear to actually print it, the cost of the time for the employer to sign it, print it, ensure it is in safe storage, and – while I am sure all he people here will disagree on it: an emotional cost for the religious person who truly feels it is a sin that will make them be excommunicated and go to hell (I’m not saying it is right, or sane, but it is a religious belief many people have).

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why will it make them excommunicated? They’re not using or taking contraception. Anyway, they can probably just get recommunicated,again or whatever it is they do.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Here is the foundation of rightwing “liberatarian” politics. The fear that someone somewhere might be getting something for nothing and/or having a good time.

          • HeilMary1

            Asshat, their “Christian Brothers Insurance” is ALSO EXEMPT, so no nun or female employee will have access to insurance premium-PAID “free” contraception! Pedophile priests and male employees, however, will have FREE Viagra paid for by all the females! Are you happy now? The next chapter of this holy hissy fit will be “Christian Brothers” declaring bankruptcy to avoid covering multi-million dollar maternal injuries, deaths, birth defects, priest-enforced abortion scandals and Viagra molestation law suits. I’m sure you’ll blame the nuns’ sl*tty FEMALE employees for the resulting skyrocketing obstetric and Viagra molestation claims!

          • David Taylor

            According to my wife, Planned Parenthood and/or the county social service office will give it to anyone, free. So, I don’t see what the problem is? Heil seems to think all priest are pedophiles and all males are evil. I think Heil is a misandrist.

          • fiona64

            Well, your wife is incorrect (quelle surprise).

            PP has a sliding adjustable fee scale. Not all oral contraception is cheap, and not all women can use BCPs anyway. County Social Services only serves the most underprivileged … and access is a problem in both places thanks to anti-choicers who threaten and kill providers.

          • David Taylor

            Well, that’s possible. Not every one who appears light skinned come from privilege – some of us came from nothing.

          • HeilMary1

            And I come from even less than self-pitying you!

          • fiona64

            Yeah, and I’m one of those who came from nothing. My source on this stuff is *primary.* Your source is “shit I heard from some bloke down the pub.”

          • David Taylor

            You need to educate yourself about the reality of how hard life can be for everyone one, of every sex, of every skin tone. Until then, you will keep believing you deserve privileges to pull you up to the reprieved status of others – rather than earn your way up through hard work.

          • fiona64

            What a f*cking joke you are. I put myself through university on my own dime. I’ve worked as a *field hand,* you sorry POS. There is NOTHING that you can tell me about hard work. I guarantee I’ve done more of it than you’ve ever *imagined.* Check your privilege at the door, Mr. Cisgendered Het White Guy; you’re completely blind to it because you sit at the top of the goddamned ladder.

            Mange merde et mort.

          • David Taylor

            There you go being a racist. That’s what it is really about. You are racist who hates men and presume you have to work harder than any white man – and that such are automatically on the top and think they are better than you for it – and so you think you deserve have the government make other take care of poor you.

            Fortunately, I know from experience people of every color, sex, and religion who are better people than you will ever become.

            I do see irony in someone who claims to work with medicine but does not seem to know that ‘eat shit and live’ is the proper slogan given medical discovery of late. :)

          • RonPaul2012

            You have built a real straw fortress here buddy.

          • David Taylor

            Good, you’ve both given me enough straw men to populate its army.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            We have given you facts. You have given us shit.

          • fiona64

            You make a lot of ignorant assumptions, did you know that? Like your assumption that I am a person of color (is that because I worked as a field hand?). Or that I am a misandrist (I’m not; I like men a great deal … I just don’t happen to like *you*).

            Dude, white men *are* at the top of the privilege ladder. Why? Because white men set it up that way. You need to read Tim Wise and learn a thing or two.

            I WORK for a living. I’ve never even been on unemployment. My taxes paid your salary while you were in the service.

            Congrats on your ability to use Google Translator, BTW. You must be so proud.

          • David Taylor

            I’ve not assumed you are any color – even white people who hate all white people are fixated and race and therefore racist. It’s clear you have issues with white males and think they all are more privileged than you AND that you are entitled for you opinions to be valid because of it while they are not entitled to their opinions. That is racism in action.

            I didn’t need a translator for that elementary Latin phrase. I had the same opportunity to learn it in public school as any other kid who attended my school.

          • fiona64


            I didn’t need a translator for that elementary Latin phrase.

            Well, that’s good … especially since it was in French.

            It’s clear you have issues with white males and think they all are more privileged than you

            It’s clear that you are still talking out your arse.

            Educate yourself: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

          • David Taylor

            Yep, that’s why I took Latin. It helps people make sense out of all the other languages that use it as a root – even after not studying it since for decades.

            It’s funny how those of us with native american and/or mixed racial background have to prove we are not ‘white’ before we are are assumed to not be privileged. Racism is amuk in America – even against light skinned people.

          • fiona64

            native american

            ::pats head:: What are you, 1/100,000 Lakota or something? Most Native Americans I know laugh at white dudes who try to make that claim.

            But hey … rock on with your bad self.

          • HeilMary1

            He’s pretending to get a casino license!

          • HeilMary1

            Misogyny is amuk among you TeaBirchers.

          • CJ99

            Whats evident here is that you flunked out of school from stupidity born out of indolence (go ahead google that while you’re at it). You still cant make a coherent statement. Your claim that caucasian on caucasian “hate” is racism is beyond absurd. Your despised not cause you’re skin, your despised cause your a willfully ignorant lazy sleaze who grows fat off the efforts of others while demeaning everyone around you.

          • HeilMary1

            Crybaby mother killer, you could never tolerate the horrors of deadly childbirth complications, and as a Nazi, you insist women be stiffed out of being paid equally. You could never work my killer hours. I’ve often worked 30-some hours straight in 100 hour work weeks (with no straight time or overtime for the extra 60 UNPAID hours) just to avoid being fired. My anti-abortion mom disfigured me and I paid those $100,000 surgery bills myself because anti-abortionists NEVER compensate their victims. Crybaby you would have killed yourself in first grade!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I hate you. Personally.

          • CJ99

            He doesn’t even have sockpuppets supporting him. Nobody likes that troll which is no surprise.

          • CJ99

            Moron, despising your flatulant diatribes isn’t racism. Despising you as a man isn’t racism either even if you were a real man. You’re not a man. What you are is an intellectually indolent, and very self serving bigot. You have no right to bitch at others for how they work until you yourself actually get a job doing real work.

          • HeilMary1

            Mother killer, until you’ve had your penis shredded by a melon-sized fetus, your breasts and face rotted off by cancer-triggering fetuses, multiple organ failures and transplants, sepsis limb amputations, your neglected kids molested by priests and your marriage annulled in favor of childless teen hotties, homelessness and cancelled insurance, you’ll remain clueless about how pregnancy ruins women, already children, marriages, and economies. Forced childbearing = squalid poverty, domestic abuse, crime and WAR.

          • David Taylor

            No I doubt you work in medicine. I know a lot of medical professionals and non of them would say fetus’ cause cancer. No on is forcing a woman to bear a child – except in cases of crime that make the news.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Ever heard of a molar pregnancy? You are pregnant with growing cancerous wart. You know nothing about this but you want to be in charge. Like all nutters.

          • HeilMary1

            The high estrogen caused by female fetuses killed many women I knew with breast and face cancers. Some oncologists do warn female patients, even though the fetal idolaters then scream bloody murder.

          • fiona64

            You seem to be confusing your posters. As a matter of fact, fetii can indeed cause cancer. Just because you’ve never heard of a thing doesn’t mean it isn’t so. http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Pregnancy_related_cancer

            No on is forcing a woman to bear a child

            Right … which is why your fellow anti-choicers are so busy a) trying to eliminate the right to obtain effective contraception (which you clearly support) and forcing clinic closures left and right.

            Pull the other one, Davie; it’s got bells on it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Uh huh. Health care is a privilege. The Libertarian/Republican Health Care Plan = Don’t get sick and if you do, die quickly. Hat tip to Alan Grayson the Magnificent.

          • CJ99

            As a fat rich white male you have no idea how hard life can be. You’ve never even had to do any real work for yourself as you ride on the backs of others. You don’t even have a concept of how to think for yourself, you’ve never done that either. All of which is clearly evident from your own inept ramblings.

          • CJ99

            So that’s where he’s been meeting Pat Robertson!

          • HeilMary1

            Your wife has never been to PP because PP doesn’t give it away free, just cheaper than some doctors. I know because I called for estimates.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, PP is not free. But they do provide quality healthcare for women on a sliding scale, based on what you can pay, I’ve been to them a few times now–it’s always loads fun to have loonies scream that they can ‘save my baby’ when I’ve never been pregnant. And if you want them to continue providing quality healthcare, quit trying to defund them.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Your wife is wrong. I think you are a liar. Your wife is your hand.

          • David Taylor

            ROFL. No, she’s a MILF>

          • HeilMary1

            You wish!

          • David Taylor

            No, I am quite certain I know what I like.

          • CJ99

            the “women” you prefer come with an air pump & puncture repair kit. no living breathing human would be caught dead with you.

          • HeilMary1

            Blow-ups don’t talk back!

          • CJ99

            but neither does he when he’s done inflating it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            WTF is a MILF?

          • HeilMary1

            Urban slang for “Mother I’d Like (to) Fuck”.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wish I had not asked. Ewwwwww.

          • CJ99

            Heard it from a guy I used to work with who among other things was a huge porno addict, imagine “david taylor” with a 70’s era toupee half blown off in the wind.

          • CJ99

            His wife is his imagination. What he is can be described as a “paul hayman kinda guy”

          • CJ99

            You don’t know mary, you don’t know me or anyone here. Yet you pretend you’re doing us a huge favour by your mere presense. Nothing is further from the truth. That laughter you hear is not laughing with you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are telling me your wife is just as ignorant as you are? Somehow I do not believe that. But then, she married you. So who knows.

          • fiona64

            Oh, FFS. You are really stretching now.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Drama Queen. You are arguing airy fairey economics/political theory. I got blood in this game. And I am religious. Neither is true of you.

          • David Taylor

            Wow. Talk about dramatic. You say I must not be religious because I am libertarian. Wrong. I also have blood in the game, I have a wife, sisters, and a daughter. I also have sons who have girl friends, etc. Child prevention is something that I would love to see available to everyone equally – but not at the cost of someone’s beliefs.

          • HeilMary1

            So you are OK with the nuns killing your wife, sisters, daughters, etc. for their pedophile priest cult?! You are sick and un-American!

          • David Taylor

            My wife, sister, and daughters are not catholic and have no ‘priest’. and, they would not consider it nuns killing them if they did not help them acquire BC. All of them know they can buy it themselves if they want it.

          • HeilMary1

            Then your selfish, ignorant wife, sister and daughters don’t give a hoot about the right to life and health of all other women. They would make perfect slavery plantation “belles”.

          • CJ99

            Look at your egomaniacal rants. look at your own picture! no woman, even with a huge masochistic streak would be caught dead with you. you’re nothing but an ego driven walrus.

          • fiona64

            Child prevention is something that I would love to see available to everyone equally – but not at the cost of someone’s beliefs.

            The nuns are free not to use contraception.

            What you are talking about is Group A being able to force Group B to abide by Group A’s religious beliefs, regardless of the beliefs of Group B.

            Some “libertarian.”

          • David Taylor

            Yes, group A (the employed and lefties who want the letters signed and birth control given) are trying to force by law Group B (the nuns / catholic orgs) to abide by Group A’s religiously held belief that they are entitled, despite Group B’s beliefs that such goes against their own beliefs.

          • fiona64

            And here I thought you were capable of ceasing your deliberately obtuse behavior.

            My bad.

          • David Taylor

            It is not obtuse to consider the opposing point of view.

          • HeilMary1

            You are obtusely fascist to only allow convenient sinful safe sex for yourself and your wife, the rest of us be damned.

          • David Taylor

            Wow. And now the libtards even want in my bedroom.

          • fiona64

            Oh, trust me, sweetie. None of the women here are interested in *anything* about your bedroom. I would guess that none of the men are either.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re already letting murderous nuns into our bedrooms, so you deserve to share our misery.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Whoa … from Lefties to Libtards in a few hours. Are we surprised?

          • David Taylor

            Sorry, even I, in my general good nature, get tired of being on the receiving end of name calling and ultimately dish some back.

          • HeilMary1

            You flatter yourself!

          • CJ99

            You mistook “good nature” to mean theocratic ego tripping. that’s called delusion.

          • CJ99

            EEEWW NO. Nobody wants in your bedroom. Nobody here even wants to think of an obese walrus getting the funk on. nasty.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Scary place in my head now.

          • CJ99

            His bedroom is no doubt a standing reservation in the steelport bdsm club. Apparantly his safeword is teacup which he borrowed from a member of the saints.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So when are you going to do that here?

          • David Taylor

            Since I have already considered the opposing view to my own, I’ll consider new opposing views when something meaningful is added to the conversation… just like i always re-evaluate my beliefs when new information is available.

          • CJ99

            You wouldnt know anything meaningful if jesus himself stuffed in your ears. You’re “beliefs” are not factual nor meaningful in any regard.

          • David Taylor

            They are as valid as anyone’s beliefs can be… You are really not adding any value to the conversation here CJ. I’m guessing by the lack of information ’99’ must be your birth year and you are just 15 and nave no debating skills yet.

          • CJ99

            Nope, sorry trollbot, Obscenely forcing others to conform to dictatorship (being your’s) isn’t valid, never could be in any way.

          • David Taylor

            By expressing by opinions, I’ve not forced anyone to do anything, silly goose.

          • CJ99

            Stupid rabbit tricks are for kids.

            Oh & btw, your batshit insane bullshit still isn’t believed. You’ve proven yourself quite the liar so many times even I’ve lost count.

          • fiona64

            just like i always re-evaluate my beliefs when new information is available.

            ROFLMAO at this latest lie. “Libertarians”/objectivists don’t do that. Once The Truth(TM) has been arrived at, there is no need for further consideration or factual examination. In fact, anyone who does not conform to the “libertarian”/objectivist Truth(TM) must either be reformed/re-educated until they do or “excommunicated.”

            http://voices.yahoo.com/fanaticism-orthodoxy-objectivist-movement-427174.html

            (And Mr. Taylor here was foolish enough to claim that I didn’t know anything about his own politics …. it appears that I know more than he does, if his claims never to have read Rand are accurate.)

          • HeilMary1

            No, Group A womb-traffickers-for-pedophile-priests are being allowed by the Compromiser-in-Chief to deny maternal life-saving contraception, etc. to all the Group B women you’re not personally banging, whether they sign or don’t sign all their exemption forms!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And now we got to “lefties” too. We got us a live one, Brothers and Sisters. Go back to Free Republic and Stormfront where you belong. Give Erik Erickson a kiss for me.

          • CJ99

            Now you’ve done it plum, he’s gonna start ranting about “teh pinko commies”.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He certainly has given us every other right wing meme. Cannot be far behind, CJ.

          • HeilMary1

            Erik the pedophile probably gets enough kisses from tots in tiaras!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I do not believe you.

          • David Taylor

            I don’t give a rats behind about what you believe.

          • fiona64

            And I feel exactly the same way about you! Isn’t that convenient?

          • CJ99

            nobody gives a rats ass about your lies. so boo hoo for you & don’t let the door smack your butt on the way out.

          • HeilMary1

            Oh please! — a door smack is probably the closest he gets to sex!

          • CJ99

            don’t give him ideas, he’d love some nasty kink if he tried.

          • CJ99

            Y’know the last time I saw that face it was the late 70’s & early 80’s watching WKRP on tv. The face of the irrational televangelist goon who kept coming into the station with lists of music he demanded they not play cause it was “against gods wishes” until there was no music left for them to play. thats when his hairy butt got tossed out the back door straight to the dumpster just like yours is right now.

            What’s gonna really shock you later on is if you ever had the (nonexistant) chance to meet the creator or jesus neither of them will even give you the time of day. You do not speak for them, or anyone else trollboy.

          • David Taylor

            I’ve never claimed to speak for anyone but me, CJ.

          • CJ99

            *yawns*

            I’d say nice try but I’d be lying. fact is you’ve lied so many times now you can’t even remember your own bullshit from 1 second to the next.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You mean they get their darling precious feelings hurt and I get to bleed to death is the same thing?

            We already dealt with the money issue. ACA is an insurance health care pool that lowers health care costs for everyone. You have no monetary argument.

            YOU ARE IRRATIONAL. Why do all these authoritarian freaks insist they are “for freedumb?”

          • David Taylor

            It is not irrational to consider non-monetary arguments. ACA is an anti-woman, anti-poor, anti-American law that needs to be repealed.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU are the anti-woman, anti-poor treasonous Koch brother fascist freak here, troll.

          • fiona64

            Right … because coverage parity is anti-woman, as is ensuring that preventive care like mammograms and pelvics is available without a co-pay. And making sure everyone has access to affordable health insurance is anti-poor (tell that to my friends whose costs under their state’s exchange is $2/month). And making sure that everyone can see a doctor is anti-American … which would have come as an enormous surprise to the founding fathers; Jefferson advocated for universal, government-run health care.

            http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/01/newsflash_thomas_jefferson_sup.html

            War is peace. Ignorance is strength. Chocolate has always been 35 cents. /”libertarianism”

          • CJ99

            I was gonna say that Jefferson was the founding father who had a rather kinky private live, but if my memory is right that was in fact Franklin. Still its something the religious wrong doesn’t like to think about.

          • fiona64

            Franklin had a far more kinky private life than Jefferson, if the French are to be believed (and I think they are). Still, I wholeheartedly concur with your point. The Religious Reich love to invoke the Founding Fathers, without the slightest idea of what those men really believed.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I love the ACA. And ain’t I a poor woman? Yes I am. Yes we can.
            Go Obama! It’s your birthday. Go Obama!
            Go Obama! It’s your birthday. Go Obama!
            Go Obama! It’s your birthday. Go Obama!

          • expect_resistance

            When I first glanced at your post I saw, I am woman. Then I heard Helen Reddy, “I am woman hear me roar” in my head. I love that song. :) Anyway…..

            The ACA is a great start but, I would love to see single payer next.

            Last week I got a mammogram and because of the ACA it was covered as preventative care by my insurance. This is what the conservatives, libertarians, tea party folks, don’t grasp is that preventative care prevents bad things like cancer. It’s less expensive in the long run to pay for preventative care than to pay for the alternative. Yes, birth control is preventative care. Of course you and I know this but the antis and forced birthers cry, “Religious freedom.” I’m so sick of it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I wanted single payer too. I think we will see it eventually.

            I have tried to get this Troll to debate the religious freedom argument, but it does not debate or consider, it bloviates.

            It will not reply to argument because it has very little education in biology, philosophy particularly ethics, medicine, religion or sociology. It is ignorant and cannot debate these things.

          • CJ99

            Ball up that tinfoil hat your wearing & stuff it in your mouth, that’s the only way it’ll do any good.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not debate non monetray arguments. You have completely ignored my comments about Conscientious Objection. Fricking liar.

          • RonPaul2012

            This guy makes Drew Hymer look intelligent. Who I notice is replying to us now.

            What a twit.

            No matter what we say, he keeps insisting that WE are the misogynists because we don’t believe that women are nothing more than easy bake ovens, designed to make babies, and whose only worth is in making babies.

            And his fallback – innocent little babies are being killed!!!

            And I love the part about how ‘when a woman has sex she volunteers for pregnancy’.

            Funny how he doesn’t agree that his brother volunteered to be charged for manslaughter for killing all those people in a car accident. Why? Because his brother was not criminally negligent…but a woman having sex = a criminally negligent act! This is why I always like to go with the car accident analogy…

            And furthemore, the nitwit doesn’t understand the concept of ‘consent’.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Drew Hymer is a troll with many socks who inhabits these boards. The troll can be recognized easily after you have dealt with it once or twice. It is incapable of debate. Indeed, it is incapable of thought. I do not know what is wrong with it. Youth, autism, ADHD? Hard to tell. It is clear it is incapable of reason and debate.

          • CJ99

            Autism, ADHD or any other medical condition would be an improvement. What that bunch of clowns does on the other hand is very much premeditated. Not actions of someone who can’t control themselves but actions taken with such callousness they react with glee when they see the suffering they cause.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You might want to go and take a look at Drew’s crap. He has made a website for this debate to try and control the outcome and get his views out. It is a hoot.

            “they react with glee when they see the suffering they cause.” It is our just punishment for not being dutiful women. They have Gawd on their side. In any other context it would be considered sadistic.

          • CJ99

            Listening to the garbage coming from your mouth is the very definition of hell. Hint for you: you’re not “holier than thou” what you are is a fat balding denizen of fast food joints.

          • David Taylor

            Apparently, CJ doesn’t know the difference between his ears and his eyes. You read what I wrote online, CJ. My lips are not even moving. BTW: TY for the compliment. I can afford to feed myself well AND have aged well in to a ‘sexy’ balding man look. :)

          • HeilMary1

            If the nuns and my mom had the control they coveted, you and your brood mare would be imprisoned in SEPARATE concentration camps as punishment for your sinful “baby-killing” sex! That’s what Cardinal Faulhaber talked Hitler into — interning sterilized Aryans so they couldn’t have any sinful safe sex!

          • CJ99

            I’ve heard that from other sources that indeed Hitler did harbour a bitter hatred for any Aryan (his so called people) who were sterilized or had abortions.

          • fiona64

            You keep telling yourself that, sweetie. I’m sure that it gives you great comfort.

          • RonPaul2012

            fiona64 has made you look pretty stupid today

            I would be embarrassed if I were you.

            Especially when you couldn’t tell Latin from French.

            lulz

          • CJ99

            If he’d dared to say the same in person I’d have given him a french lesson. I won’t repeat it here but it does involve a banana.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Michael Ironside you’re not.

          • fiona64

            Nor is he Sean Connery.

          • HeilMary1

            Loved the Connery impersonations on SNL’s Jeopardy spoofs!

          • CJ99

            Now that gave me some comic relief but very true. At least Michael Ironside can play the hardass convincingly while dear old “david” couldn’t wipe his butt with any conviction.

          • RonPaul2012

            And you’re sexy the way dog shit is sexy.

            At least dog shit can fertilize a garden, however.

          • CJ99

            yeah I did notice the same. I can’t seriously imagine any woman being attracted to a fat ignorant monkey in a cheap suit especially when he’s probably got more hair on his butt than his head (eeewww).

            Can you imagine the reaction from anyone meeting that troll in person once his lips part and his verbal diahrea starts to flow? UGH!

          • CJ99

            Dear dumbass,

            I immediately realized that you’re once again lying out your butt. We can all see it. Indeed your lips are moving as you type as your too freakin ignorant to do it without first sounding out words. Btw, I and others have noticed you been sitting there at home not working whilst spewing your inane bullshit all freakin day long. hence you have no job and are supported by others.

            the freaking clue the rest of the world has been trying to give you is that dictating the lives of humanity is not a real job. Just as your delusions are not real either. If you don’t like it you can kindly fuck off cause nobody else believes your inept babble.

          • expect_resistance

            Of course there is a cost for medicine, that’s not the point. This has been singled out under the red herring it’s an issue about “religious freedom.” No religious group or employer is entitled or has the right to decide the medical care or moral decisions of “their” employees. Furthermore, no employer can dictate what or how “their” employees spend their money. That’s dumb.

            This is not a moral issue. It’s an issue about misogyny and the Catholic Church trying to impose its religious dogma on us all.

            Freedom from religion!

          • cjvg

            Uhm, the EMPLOYEES premiums pay for it. If you are to uneducated or willfully ignorant to understand how the insurance market works, please refrain from posting irrelevant inane and easily proven faulty comment that do not contribute to anything but airway pollution.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Should they desire birth control, it is available to them with no copay. Or would be if they had better insurance.

          • fiona64

            What part of “health insurance is part of an employee’s compensation, and thus belongs to them” is lost on you?

            Oh, wait … all of it.

          • David Taylor

            What part of, ‘the employer’ has a right to provide only that compensation for which they have contractual agreement or are lawfully required – do you not understand? Oh, wait, all of it.

          • fiona64

            Dummy, your own words prove my point (“lawfully required”): What part of “the employer must obey employment law” is beyond you?

            Oh, wait … “Free market!” “Freedom of association!” “Get rid of the minimum wage!” “If you don’t like it, find another employer!” /libertarian bee-ess

          • David Taylor

            So me one that isn’t obeying the law? When the law is contestable suit will abound.

          • fiona64

            Stop being deliberately obtuse. I’m sure that, with a tiny amount of effort, you can manage that.

          • HeilMary1

            He’s a paid Koch brother troll who wishes the Confederacy won.

          • fiona64

            I should not be at all surprised.

          • CJ99

            The only thing that surprises me is how said trolls can have such an easy job but yet fail so miserably at it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Drivel.

          • HeilMary1

            You support nuns committing religious cult-based GYNOCIDE.

          • CJ99

            What you so willfully ignore is the fact that they’re not doing whats legally obligated for their employees.

          • David Taylor

            Willfully? No. That’s not the case at all. Under protest object handle the matter through legal channel, yes. If the had done it willfully there would be fines associated with it not court litigation on going about if what they are doing is wrong or not.

          • CJ99

            Yes willfully. nobodies forcing you to be a theocratic shit for brains. you’re doing that all on your own. and as usual the rest of your tirade is worthless babble. but that’s expected when you’re openly being an impudent monkey.

          • CJ99

            y’know if you’d bothered to learn anything about health insurance you’d be aware that it treats the very same psychiatric conditions you’re exhibiting right now.

          • David Taylor

            I have no doubt that I know more about it than you ever will.

          • HeilMary1

            You admit you’re crazy!

          • CJ99

            *yawns again*

            y’know if you had cable you could at least quote faux news verbatim, or as close as you could get with your horrific linguistic skills. You still know nothing. tomorrow the same will still be true of you.

        • HeilMary1

          The letter gives the evil mother-killing nuns the right to use fetuses to maim and murder their female employees, you misogynist fascist! The mean step-Sisters know their pedophile priest-protecting insurance company is ALSO RELIGIOUSLY EXEMPT! You and the nuns should be jumping up and down in Nazi nirvanah.

          • David Taylor

            If the letter gives the right to maim and murder, no wonder the nuns do not want to sign it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Here we go – it is a Forced Birther.

          • fiona64

            Of course … because contraception isn’t really health care! Women aren’t really harmed by pregnancy; we’re just a bunch of friggin’ EasyBake Ovens! Pregnancy isn’t something we do; it’s what we’re *for.* (h/t to Amanda Marcotte)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Amanda = Brilliant.

          • HeilMary1

            Dummy, the nuns DO want to maim and murder women through compulsory breeding which their amply-protected religious exemptions enable them to do, whether they sign extra exemption forms OR NOT!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are giving him facts, Heil. Zealots do not do facts.

          • fiona64

            Well, there is that. I keep forgetting that zealots alter the facts to fit their beliefs, instead of vice versa, because they cannot handle the pain of cognitive dissonance.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Or the pain of self examination. Without which they cannot be religious or ethical. The very definition of the Evil according to M. Scott Peck.
            Have you seen this abomination respond to one fact he has seen asserted?

          • fiona64

            Not a one.

          • HeilMary1

            M. Scott Peck was quite insightful. Sadly, he couldn’t live up to his own wisdom. He cheated left and right on his wife, who finally left him, and he had alcohol problems. Don’t know what started his problems, but his parents rejected his wife for being Asian.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Nobody can live up to their own wisdom, i think. I know i cannot. I am starting to curl up because I am aging. I tell myself all the time to do my Cobra posture. Do I do it. Not yet.

          • CJ99

            I grew up in churches where such prejudices were and still are quite common, the last having members openly doing nazi salutes during the meetings & 1 old curmudgeon kept the front door & firedoors locked & blocked in his words “to keep the chinks out”, ironically the only 2 non caucasian attendees were asians (1 was chinese).

            So when anyone here sees some of my comments seem very rough on the bigots thats a big part of why. Otherwise I make fun of them right up until the moment when its needed to layeth the smacketh down.

          • HeilMary1

            Thanks to the Nazi Vatican rat lines and colluding CIA, 100,000 Nazi criminals immigrated to the UK, Australia and the Americas. This is why politics in Allied nations has become so toxic. I’m not surprised you saw Nazi salutes. Nazis have taken over the GOP, courtesy of the Nazi money launderers in the Bush crime family.

          • CJ99

            yeah, but a lot of it is us doing it to ourselves. I’ve seen a lot of sci-fi movies with invaders being a typical thing. If any of that really happened they’d hafta do nothing just wait until we kill ourselves off. In reality the nazi’s weren’t wiped out at all. I 1st became aware of it in the 80’s, we’ve got a whole new generation of organized violent bigots operating openly and very few of humanity does or says anything about it. GRRRRR

          • CJ99

            They’d hafta start thinking for that to happen, but we know they won’t be doing any of that.

        • CJ99

          Your intent is clear but its also blatantly absurd. But then if you gave a crap about anyone but yourself you’d notice you have no support for your ignorant claims.

          • David Taylor

            If I didn’t give a crap about anyone else, I could have avoided the whole thread today – by simply ignoring that no one was speaking up for the nun’s right to ‘not sign’ a paper that should not be required to allow workers to get benefits from insurance they buy on an open market.

          • HeilMary1

            Having spent 11 hellish years in Catholic schools, I witnessed many brutal nuns savagely beat learning-disabled kids. One of my parishes had THREE pedophile priests! The priest who got my mom to disfigure me was banging the Orioles’ wives! This savagery is what you’re “nobly” defending, you PIG! You are defending CRIMINAL Munchausen by Proxy abuse of employees!

          • fiona64

            The nuns DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT, under the law, to both opt out and not follow the procedure to opt out.

            Is anyone really this stupid? Really?

          • CJ99

            “David Taylor” is really that stupid, the only humourous part is he’s so proud of being ignorant.

          • CJ99

            Nope you don’t thats 1 thing you’ve proven in spades. You haven’t avoided the commentary for 1 reason only, your ego is the 1 thing bigger than your arrogent ass & twice as malodourous. the 1 funny part is what your so unjustifiably smug about is complete bullshit & you know it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No harm in signing a simple paper–I’m sure the nuns’ ‘delicate psyches’ will survive.

        • RonPaul2012

          Your rebuttal would be valid if and only if the nuns were signing a piece of paper that then had contraception FORCED on women. This only makes contraception AVAILABLE to women, same as signing the employee paycheck makes contraception and abortions AVAILABLE to them should they choose to spend the money that way.

    • CJ99

      So sayeth the rich white man with the big paycheck & matching ego who gets ED treatments with his health coverage.

      • David Taylor

        I am rich? Wow. CJ. Since you know so much about my bank accounts – could you kindly withdrawn a bunch of money from it and give it to me? No, you must be mistaken. Oh, btw, I don’t have ED either though I do work and pay premiums towards my own health insurance. Jealous a bit?

        • HeilMary1

          We here ALL work and pay our own premiums, which is what the nuns’ employees ALSO do, you pompous prick! The difference is that the nuns insist their employees’ insurance BE WORTHLESS in treating and preventing deadly unwanted pregnancies! What if the nuns succeeded in getting vasectomies banned for all policies, including yours, even though you don’t work for them?! Do you understand that decades ago, the RCC had Margaret Sanger and childbirth-ruined Mary Ware Dennett jailed for passing out contraception pamphlets? Sanger’s own mother died from 17 pregnancies! Could you and your wife give up sex for the next several years? — because that is what the nuns are demanding, you selfish moron!

        • Jennifer Starr

          We work and pay our own premiums as well.

          • fiona64

            He’s already informed me, from his vast store of knowledge, that I am on the gubmint dole. He’s a joke.

        • RonPaul2012

          Do you like the attention? Is that why you’re here?

          You should hook up with this woman:

          https://twitter.com/HelenKistler

          She shares your IQ, is all about the free market, and is a rape apologist.

          • fiona64

            Oh yes … she’s also a “libertarian.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            And she’s now calling the news article that she thought was a blog ‘double hearsay’. Why does Helen use words that she doesn’t understand?

          • CJ99

            Double hearsay sounds like her 7 “david taylor” lying their butts off to each other over coffee.

          • fiona64

            Because she’s nucking futs.

          • RonPaul2012

            New account Jenn? Was someone stalking you?

            (Yeah, I click on names so I don’t miss convos)

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, but disqus didn’t want to seem to let me sign in with my twitter account–so instead I used my email and here I am :)

          • RonPaul2012

            Sneaky!

            Acyu-misogynist replied to you:

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/03/does-it-make-sense-to-be-a-pro-life-atheist/#comment-1193285403

            Feminerd then replied to him, with a question about the ‘potential’ of the fetus, and he gave her the usual long winded bullshit reply with more *questions*, but I can’t see the post now because Disqus is refusing to update me through email:((

            That guy is un-fucking-believable. The ONLY thing that he has is the ‘argument from sentimentality’ and now he’s trying to pick your brain lol.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh he’s asking me what I thought about his previous questions in his last giant obtuse wall of text to me–I’d go back and read it again but sticking a pitchfork in my eyes would be preferable to his misogyny under that thin veneer of extra-oily politeness he wears. And now he’s asking about sidewalk harassers, aka ‘counselors’ and he appears to be an apologist for the nasty ones–meaning that he probably is one of those. Oh, this newest post of his is pissing me off–I’ll reply to him in the morning when hopefully a bit calmer and snarkier.

          • RonPaul2012

            I’d go back and read it again but sticking a pitchfork in my eyes would
            be preferable to his misogyny under that thin veneer of extra-oily
            politeness he wears

            Which is why I am ignoring him and will continue to do so. He is SMARMY: http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977

            He actually admitted, on his site, that yes, the *mental* pain of having your body used by someone else against your will can kinda suck!

            The guy who wrote the 60+ Arguments site has been owning him very nicely, this exchange was funny:

            ACYU: I’m sorry to say that at this point I have to stop trying to disentangle some of your logic. I will be happy to reply to your relevant points, such as some in your 2014/01/08 at 9:18 am post. Whenever something does not seem relevant to me, I will try to explain why it does not if I can explain in a sentence or two, as above, but will not necessarily try in other cases.

            60+ guy: My logic is not necessarily “entangled”, and your mere say-so does not make it so. It looks to me that you are desperately seeking an excuse to avoid admitting that my conclusions are irrefutably correct.

            —————–

            hahahaha

            I love it when he gets his ass handed to him by people who know what they are doing.

            BTW, Feminerd is handling him nicely:’

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/03/does-it-make-sense-to-be-a-pro-life-atheist/#comment-1194538736

            Don’t feel obligated to reply just because I showed his shit to you. Just thought you might like to see for the lols.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Oh yeah. He is so smug and so utterly misogynistic and just completely fucking clueless about women and the real world–and pretty much everything. He knows so little and yet he’s convinced he knows so much.

          • CJ99

            Those smug crackeads are so easily made fun off. What’s aggrivating is their condescending attitude that the rest of the world just owes it to them. It’s as if they think they should be in charge for no other reason that they can breath on their own without wetting themselves for 5 minutes.

        • CJ99

          Lets review, me jealous of a fat ignorant religious reject who spends his entire time abusing others & openly mocking the entirety of humanity. Yeah you have so much for me (or anyone) to be jealous of.

          You live in a delusional fantasy, but the rest of us already knew that, its been abdundantly clear for a long time. The only “skill” (if it can even be called that) is taking advantage of others for your own benefit. You are also an unbelievably arrogant moron but that hardly qualifies as a positive attribute.

          • fiona64

            You are also an unbelievably arrogant moron

            IMO, that’s a prerequisite for joining the “libertarian” movement …

          • CJ99

            It’s common in many areas unfortunately, jerry springer viewers, gamer trolls (psextreme website being 1 example of many), televangelist devotees (libertarians again), many corporate execs, I could go on all freakin day with examples but I think we all get the point. The mere fact that there’s so many just like him so eager to abuse others for their own benefit with a smug glee on their faces has destroyed any faith in humanities future.

    • Amanda Kazarian

      Employers wouldn’t know what I’m spending my money on unless they started to probe into my private life. How is their intrusive interest in my sex life their right? How is that not totally creepy? You can go on and on about your ideal world where no one messes with your idea of a free market, but that isn’t reality.

      • CJ99

        You’ll find through davids meandering lunacy (aka his commentary) that what’s right & wrong doesn’t exist in his mind, what does go through his mind from 1 minute to the next is contradictory, extremely offensive nonsense. He genuinely believes any religious organization has every right to dictact the sex lives of everybody. His “free market” arguments are a smokescreen.

    • Andrea McDavid

      It’s not about their beliefs – that’s the con job. It’s about control of other people’s ability to control who they bring into this world and for whose benefit. Think of it as a livestock breeding program and women being used as breeding sows and men as their boars. No men are not doing this knowingly. The people making men and women are doing it knowingly – to populate armies, factories, church pews. When you look at it like that, the profit motive is clear and the whole freedom of belief thing is moot.

      • CJ99

        But then those like this “david taylor” doing it with full knowledge of the implications but are just too arrogant / sociopathic to care about anyone but themselves. As for the nuns, I’ve seen what’s involved in their “training” which is no more than brainwashing. It includes brutal “discipline” isolation from everyone they know, rigid intolerant dogma, I could go on but I’m sure you could figure it out.

        • Andrea McDavid

          I think the underpinning of what comes across as uncaring is fervour to do what is right, based on misinformed flawed logic and naivety. But you could be right, that it’s just sociopathic callousness. I haven’t followed his posts as much as you and I know you have good judgement. I’m just reluctant to make that deduction with as little information as I have, but don’t misunderstand me, I’m not afraid to judge someone as sociopathic. Discernment is necessary in life. To tell people not to judge is a gross oversimplification which disable’s people, and makes them vulnerable to con artists and cover ups.

          However, in my experience of successfully assisting powerful senior corporate executives, who are not easily swayed, to adjust their mindset, by winning their confidence (which is really influence without deceit or manipulation), you must first accurately understand the underpinning of their position, in order to align it to what you feel is closer to a well informed, healthy and accurate perspective. Their position is limited by their perspective. Broaden that, and provide supporting details, and decent people of good conscience will willingly adjust their stance without resistance.

          Sociopaths only respond to pressure and fear though. You cannot appeal to their decency because that’s not a factor in their decision making as I’m sure you know.

          That is why, I feel quite strongly that women should organize a strike to withdraw their gender specific services and the men that wish to support their cause can help by agreeing not to demand they break their strike. This has been done before and stopped 2 very long desperate wars. I assure you, women and the men that want to support them have far more leverage than they realize. They just need to be organized. I laughed when a male friend of mine said a month of cold, badly cooked dinners and no sex, for a reasonable number of powerful men, would change a law in no time at all. Of course he is right. We are relied on heavily. Women who have abusive men in their lives will have to rely on women and men who are not abusive to take their stand for them, as is the case in all successful civil rights or human rights successful movements. I don’t think this will ever be won in court. It has been argued and fought over for hundreds of years. That’s why Briton’s fled here in the first place and yes, the inquisition is here, right now. This is it starting all over again, with watch lists and bullying and legal obstruction and dismissal of people’s constitutional rights.

          • CJ99

            You’re post reminded me of a documentary I saw a few years ago where psychiatric diagnostics were applied to fairly standard corporate behaviour and the result surprised me. It found that psychopathy was more common than I’d thought. Another factor is often called groupthink where people will act in a way quite different in an organization or group than they would on their own. Essentially surrendering their freewill & ethics.

            My perpsectives also come alot from my own life. I grew up surrounded by heavy handed organized religion. It was excessively totalitarian. Later on in life as I learned more about those who lived in repressive regimes I saw some very distinct parallels to my own experiences. but I also realize that those problems of over the top manipulative behaviour is not unique to goverments or religion (which are increasingly entwined) but also in the business world. One such example (of many) is Bernie madoff, here’s a person who was the definition of “financial authority” for decades yet we all know what he was doing. On the surface it’s all about greed, but theres another layer to it, that of the same callous disregard for others & manipulation. He took advantage of his position of power to do what he did for years when many people knew what he was up to. He also believed absconding with billions & ruining the lives of so many was perfectly acceptable, that’s certainly not acceptable well balanced behaviour.

            You are right about people having to stand up for themselves and if needed withold services. It’s not always easy though as those who abuse others often use coerscive means. Also many who are victimized either feel powerless to change anything or are apathetic.

          • Andrea McDavid

            I couldn’t agree more about how much exploitation and coercion occurs all throughout human interactions. If we look at how men and women evolved, generally and for most of our evolution, men only hunted, went to war, and did the heaviest of work, which in hunter gatherer times, was not much. Men were not building skyscrapers or railroads back then. Our brief period of evolution as farmers was also very polarized per our roles. So men and women evolved to be very different. Their brains are very differently wired.

            There’s not much evolutionary drive for a hunter to be empathic. There’s not much survival success likely in a woman who fights with men – she will lose. Which is why we now have a whole new paradigm of a global village that we are not evolved to very well. Clearly many are, because they manage to get along and keep about half of all relationships together. But half do not.

            One thing is certain. If someone is evolved to look for opportunities to exploit the weak for food, they had better be able to turn off the urge to stalk prey, take off their camouflage, decline the opportunity to exploit the weak, when they walk int he door at the end of the day. Based on sexual and domestic violence stats we know that is not the case in most households. Ask any cop or criminologist. The statistics are clear even when they are lowballed. Turning off the primitive hunter mentality and turning on a more evolved collaborative mentality may be just as much of a stretch as setting firm boundaries and learning to avoid being preyed upon. But clearly humans must, because people who don’t adapt get culled from the herd. You don’t get to push aggressive predatory hunter DNA into the next generation if nobody wants to raise a child with you. Look at the stats today and you will see this culling is already well under way despite the propaganda that the aggressive masculine men are the most successful with women. That is just propaganda to defend old outdated ways. If you leave hunter warriors in charge of your world, and suppress the more meek ways of the collaborative gatherer, nurturer – which includes both men and women, you will have a world hunted and warred to extinction – which we are very close to some say. I’ve learned this by watching my teams at work. I do projects that involve what could be viewed as a microcosm of the outer world. I see it over and over and I see what creates failed projects and what creates successful ones. When managing social environments, to create healthy solutions, aggressive competition is never as successful or more importantly, it is never as sustainable as collaborative teamwork.

            People must adapt or the whole kit and kaboodle with everyone in it will be very upset. According to scientists we are at that precipice. If cooperative and collaborative means to managing our world do not overtake the primitive old ways of running this planet into the ground, there won’t be a world for any of us. Nature cannot sustain our current path.

            But humans are known for their adaptability and even the most callous predator responds to the fear of their own demise.

          • CJ99

            There’s so much in this world that needs to change even beyond what either of us said. I don’t hold a lot of faith we can overcome the negative influences on humanity though. Far too many want to keep on living in the same old unsustainable ways for no other reason than they take advantage of the situation to the exclusion of all else.

          • Andrea McDavid

            Oh alright, perhaps you are right. I know I tend to suffer from malignant hope sometimes. I encourage you to read the book Innocence by Dean Koontz, and look me up on facebook, if you wish.

  • Jennifer Starr

    ED is only a medical issue if you want to have sex.. It is essentially a playtime pill–it’s recreational. Why should it be covered?

  • fiona64

    Viagra’s on-label usage is most certainly for erectile dysfunction.

    Nope. It was created to help with heart disease, and found to have the side effect of creating long-lasting erections. That it is marketed to make sure you can get a woody does not mean that it’s the primary purpose of the med.

    Contraception is far more important than your erection, dude. Why? Because no one died from being unable to get a boner, but women die of pregnancy complications *every day* in this country. My own pregnancy was life-threatening, which is why I took drastic steps (surgical sterilization) to ensure that it would never happen again. However, even surgical sterilizations can and do faill.

    You seem awfully ignorant about the realities of women’s health.

    • David Taylor

      Oh, yes, I see: I should believe you over the FDA. NOT. Just because something was researched for X but approve for Y does not make its primary label X when it is Y. Obviously you are just looking to argue.

      • fiona64

        I’m in the medical profession, sweetie. You are free to continue looking as ignorant as you please; after all, that’s part of your essential “liberty.”

        I do note, however, that you have no objection to Viagra … probably because you have skin in that game … at the same time that you argue that birth control pills have nothing to do with health care.

        You’re a joke.

        • David Taylor

          Actually, I do object to Viagra being given out via social medicine – except in the case where it is being used off-label for documented benefit – where no other drug may work. And, I don’t think men, or women (yes, there are those that take it) should need a note from their employer to get it if their insurance don’t cover it. I just have not addressed it to this point because I don’t feel its is related to the issue.

          Did you join the mental health profession to fix yourself like some I know say they did?

          • fiona64

            Dear, I said the medical profession, not the mental health profession.

            I understand that some people who cannot read are helped by a game called “Hooked on Phonics.” You may wish to look into that.

          • David Taylor

            Oh, I know, it’s just that how bat crap craxy you seem to be – I had to presume it was that sub area o heath care in which you work. It was only logical.

          • fiona64

            Clearly you think any woman who doesn’t suck up to you is “bat crap crazy.” And that is because you are a chauvinistic POS.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Contraception coverage is still more medically pertinent than being able to get it up ‘when the time is right’, David. No one ever died from ED and people still die from pregnancy complications.

        • HeilMary1

          Only his brood mare is allowed safe sex because David doesn’t want to pay for more rug rats and his holy vasectomy also cuts off child support suits from the mistresses (whom the brood mare doesn’t know about!).

        • David Taylor

          Jennifer, I still don’t think it is relevant, but I don’t think you can back up your assertion that no one has ever died from ED. Depression is common with ED and depression can result in suicide. The gender differences in suicide are well known.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, sex is an important component in a relationship and in a marriage. But you see,the typical thing that many conservative males like to pull in these situations is to huff and puff that ED drugs are for a ‘legitimate medical condition’ while birth control pills are just used to ‘prevent pregnancy’, as if that’s somehow not important and therefore it shouldn’t be covered. Putting aside the fact that birth control has many other uses besides contraception (endometriosis, polycystic ovary disease), pregnancy itself also be a deadly and disabling condition. Even relatively easy pregnancies carry risks and complications. And some women and their partners simply don’t wish to be pregnant, for reasons that are there own. And given that well over 90% of women have used it at some point in their lives, it’s mystifying to me that coverage is even controversial in today’s world.

          • HeilMary1

            Women commit suicide all the time over pregnancy disfigurements. My best friend with the pregnancy-caused face cancer probably suicided. And you never heard of Andrea Yates and her killer post-partum depression??

          • CJ99

            what you “think” is irrelevent since its blatant bullshit. She caught you in yet another lie and thats what you’re really pissy about. Get over yourself cause nobody else cares.

  • HeilMary1

    Viagra is used to commit adultery and pedophilia and often results in ABORTIONS, you asshat! Viagra is strictly recreational and almost always sinful according to RCC standards, but RCC clergy NEVER try to ban its availability, even when abortions result!

    • David Taylor

      I don’t agree with or support the RCC. You are make the huge leap that all Viagra use is criminal and therefore should be outlawed. I bet you are a gun control freak too.

      • HeilMary1

        I support reasonable background checks on gun owners because I support self-defense. You oppose women’s right to defend themselves against dangerous pregnancies. You support killer fetuses and killer gun-owning MALE maniacs to do as they please.

        • David Taylor

          I just don’t give credence to claims that it is OK for women to pass the buck of responsibility for their own sexuality to anyone — in that regard, I am a feminist. That last sentence is hillaroius. I need a shirt that says, “I support killer fetuses” – and a chucky looking fetus holding a gun.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re no feminist, women using contraception IS being responsible, and pregnancy remains the number one killer of women worldwide, asshat.

          • CJ99

            You are in no way a feminist anymore than you can call yourself a woman. Even calling you human is an outrageous stretch of the imagination.

      • CJ99

        Yeah suuuuure you clearly need a full military assault rifle with 200 round drum magazine loaded with teflon rounds to fight off the hoards of kevlar covered bears in your back yard too. ;P

        Btw since your still obvlivious, you just got pwned….again.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        “I don’t agree with or support the RCC.”
        Liar liar pants on fire. We see you doing it.