North Dakota Supreme Court Considers Whether There Is a State Right to Abortion


On Wednesday, the North Dakota Supreme Court heard arguments on the constitutionality of a 2011 law that opponents claim unconstitutionally restricts medication abortions.

In 2011, North Dakota lawmakers passed HB 1297, a law that banned the off-label use of two drugs used in medication abortions and restricted medication abortions to only the protocol approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Shortly after the law was passed, the Center for Reproductive Rights, on behalf of the state’s only abortion clinic, the Red River Women’s Clinic, sued to block the law, arguing the effect of the restriction would be to ban medication abortions entirely. According to HB 1297, the use of any drug to cause an abortion must meet the “protocol tested and authorized” by the FDA and outlined on the drug’s label. Like nearly all abortion providers, the Red River Women’s Clinic uses a combination of two drugs, Mifeprex and misprostol, to perform medication abortions, but one of those drugs, misoprotol, is not labeled as an abortion-inducing drug. But like a wide range of other medications, misoprostol is used for treatments beyond its original FDA labeling, and its off-label use has become the standard of care in performing medication abortions. It’s this off-label use that the North Dakota law, and similar bans in places like Oklahoma, prohibit.

Following a three-day trial this April, East Central District Judge Wickham Corwin concluded the law was “simply wrongheaded” and violated the North Dakota state constitution. In July, he issued a permanent injunction blocking the law from taking effect. This week, the North Dakota attorney general’s office asked the state supreme court to reverse that July ruling.

Unlike most challenges to abortion restrictions, the North Dakota case turns on whether the state constitution recognizes a right to privacy and abortion and not federal law. Arguing on behalf of the state of North Dakota, Attorney General Douglas Bahr insisted the North Dakota constitution does not. According to Bahr, because North Dakota’s constitution was written before a federal right to abortion was recognized in the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, and because the state’s constitution did not expressly provide for a right to abortion, no “state right” to abortion exists. And while the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution prohibits states from applying their laws in a way that interferes with federal rights, state courts are under no obligation to interpret state laws to protect federal rights. If no state right to abortion exists and state courts are not required to read state law to protect federal rights, Bahr’s logic follows that the lower court was wrong to find HB 1297 a violation of the North Dakota constitution.

But attorneys for the Center for Reproductive Rights and the Red River Women’s Clinic disagreed, arguing that federal constitutional rights trump state efforts to curb abortion access, that the law denies women access an important and safe alternative to surgical abortion, and that it unnecessarily inserts the interests of anti-choice legislators into the care doctors deliver to their patients. According to Center for Reproductive Rights attorneys, the lower court was correct when it ruled the law served no legitimate state purpose and blocked its enforcement.

A ruling in the case is not expected for several months.

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  • Sam

    A morning after pill is fine to me. We can live without any other abortions.

    • L-dan

      Says someone with no idea whatsoever of the complexity of pregnancy. Perhaps you can live without one, many others are not so lucky.

      • HeilMary1

        Yeah, millions have died because they couldn’t get safe emergency abortions. Before Saint Margaret Sangar, men were typically widowed several times because of childbirth deaths.

        • goatini

          “Saint” is right. We studied about the great humanitarian saint Margaret Sanger and her noble work for ALL women WORLDWIDE in high school health ed class, in the 60s.

    • cjvg

      How unfortunate that you are so uninformed and arrogant that you believe you have the right to dictate what those who are NOT YOU can life or die by

    • Ineedacoffee

      Thats fine for YOU, dont try to dictate what others do with their own body

      • Sam

        Wouldn’t dream of it. Just saying we could live without killing our own babies.

        • Ineedacoffee

          By saying we can live without any other abortions is wanting to dictate other womens bodies as some like myself see no issue with abortion and believe its a right
          No we couldnt live without abortion for many reason, let me know if you want the list, Im about to go out so dont have time to write it now

          • Sam

            What’s the list? Why is it a good idea to kill our babies? Right now we are short people. There’s not enough people to pay the Social Security or the obamacare. Things like abortion will bite us in the rear down the road. I wouldn’t mess the law because it isn’t worth it with all the rabid feminists and all. Better to teach morals to my children so they won’t need one.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you know of someone who’s killing babies, you need to inform the police. No one’s talking about infanticide here.

          • marshmallow

            Have you seen the new dumbass on the TFA thread? Sayak…he is from Stanford uni and lecturing me on how bad my arguments are..

          • CJ99

            perhaps he meant the sanford & sons diploma mill. y’know the one with 48 hour turnaround on correspondence school degrees. Perhaps he feels extra smart cause he blew another $80 on overnight delivery.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Can you link me? I can’t locate it.

          • marshmallow
          • marshmallow

            Oh boy. Have you seen this. He has proclaimed that the bodily autonomy argument is defunct BC women only have abortions for financial reasons. And besides, rape is always worse than forced birth and you can’t use excessive force to escape the rapist: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/03/does-it-make-sense-to-be-a-pro-life-atheist/#comment-1162783915

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s always mental masturbation with these guys. It’s so easy to engage in ridiculous flights of fancy when you know you’ll never be faced with having your body taken over and ravaged by biology.

          • marshmallow

            I can’t fucken believe it. He admonished Jennifer and I for lacking ‘civility’ then fucking *mansplained* to us that:

            1) women are too incompetent to make their own medical decisions, and that doctors should be the ones to decide how much risk a woman should take on (and he compared pregnancy to a dog allergy)

            2) that women have abortions not because they don’t want to be pregnant, but because society is evil, and doesn’t give them enough emotional and financial support. Because we all know that making babies is every woman’s true calling, and that with enough love and cash all women will have babies all the time!!!

            But no, he isn’t misogynist, not at all!!!

          • L-dan

            Well whoop de doo. Did he actually major in anything relevant?

          • marshmallow

            Not a clue I just checked his Facebook link from the disqus menu and he is a Stanford student. I was always under the impression that the smartest people in the world went to Stanford and other top universities.

          • L-dan

            Smart doesn’t mean pragmatic, or right. Smart doesn’t come with an automatic scientific background. There are very smart people who vehemently belief in creationism. Some of them are probably even at Stanford.

            I’d like to hope they are not in any science department.

          • marshmallow

            I have often wondered what it means if one has a really high IQ but is always wrong. If you can get into Mensa but are incapable of solving real life problems how intelligent are you really? And if an IQ test measures your ability to use logic and reason then shouldn’t you always have the best arguments for everything? And those superior reasoning skills should always point you towards “truth”. I think that all of this goes to show that there is more to intelligence than computational skills and the like. Emotional intelligence also plays a role.

          • L-dan

            Absolutely. Given my aunt’s utter lack of common sense, despite being the ‘smart one’ in that generation of the family, my mom was actually terrified when I started exhibiting signs of above average brightness. She tells me she prayed “I don’t care if she’s dumb, just don’t let her be that lacking in common sense.”

            I like to think I managed ok on both counts. :p

            There are many, many examples of reasoning taking us down the wrong path. The competing theories for the structure of DNA are pretty interesting to look at there, before we landed enough evidence to settle on the one we’re familiar with. Reading Aristotle’s scientific bits illuminate an extremely smart man, arriving at all the wrong answers because he started with wrong framework…but it was the best he had. And that’s without dipping into emotional intelligence. Even computers can’t give you a good answer if you feed them junk to start with.

          • marshmallow

            And by emotional intelligence I am not so much using the ‘touchy/feely’ understanding of it.

            I am using the definition that we are our emotions. We cannot be vulcans, no matter how hard we try. In that attempting to be vulcans, we are acting emotionally!

            Take William Shockley. Absolutely brilliant. But he *felt* that blacks were inferior. So he put all of his intellectual efforts into proving it.

            As you said, starting with the wrong premise, because of emotional reasons.

          • L-dan

            *nod* We’re constantly finding the ways in which those sorts of biases have skewed science. There’s way too much of that sort of thing in the most pounced upon evolutionary biology at the moment, for example. Note a behavior in this particular culture, and derive a way that it is based upon some kind of evolutionary reproductive strategy. Test it upon a mostly smallish and homogenous sample. Then state they are correct without looking at other explanations for the behavior, looking at whether or not other cultures of humans or even other categories of humans from this culture exhibit the same behaviors…etc.

          • Ella Warnock

            ^^ This.

          • Guest

            self delete

          • L-dan

            And she’s *actually* smart. As you noted, wrong on various points, but smart. I always felt kind of sorry for her in that administration. How galling would it be to serve under someone you knew was so far from being your intellectual equal?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Some kind of an engineering major.

          • marshmallow

            You can tell that he is in love with his own intellect.

            I love his reply to you ‘if the fetus has a right to life…then it must be protected unless the pregnancy is killing the woman’ (paraphrase)

            I like how he believes that to be true..to be universally understood…because!

          • L-dan

            Yes, because if he woke up to find someone siphoning his blood to transfuse his dying neighbor with, he’d have no right to tell that person to take the needle out of his damn arm.

            No, your right to life is not so sacrosanct that it means you’re allowed to violate someone’s rights to their own body. You are not allowed to use another body as you see fit (that’s rape…among other things).

            And that’s even assuming I agree that a developing embryo *has* a right to life. As a non-person, I really don’t concede that.

          • marshmallow

            What’s funny is, he has started with the premise ‘but if the fetus has a right to life, that life cannot be taken, so what we must decide is whether or not the fetus has the right to life’

            He is making this assertion and behaving as if it is a universally understood *truth*.

          • L-dan

            Well, circular reasoning is a specialty of that bunch.

          • L-dan

            So… no real background in rhetoric or philosophy by which to judge arguments as being sound or unsound. No real scientific background to provide a grasp on the processes, dangers, and effort involved in pregnancy and fetal development. And no actual experience of being someone who risks having their body hijacked by a fetus.

            But uses “Stanford” as if that somehow confers all of this. Has he heard of ‘argument from authority’ before and know how not-sound it is?

          • marshmallow

            He did not brag about Stanford. I checked his Facebook. Imagines himself as some sort of philosopher however.

          • L-dan

            Good for him. Doesn’t mean anyone else needs to honor the distinction unless he actually proves himself to be one. yeesh. I hate those sorts. They’re full of spaghetti-like knots of convoluted reasoning, horrible analogies, and usually posit some a priori ‘truths’ that are nothing of the sort.

          • cjvg

            So does my pig, she has a tremendous vocabulary range of grunts woofs, snorts and oinks to describe how incredibly delicious irresistibly tempting crazy hot slim jims are according to her.

            I have no idea what she is saying but it sounds important and interesting, and she gets the idea across that she finds this topic very important.

            Somehow I still do not think others will agree with me that she is a consummate philosopher about the finer things in life.

          • marshmallow

            Do you have a pet potbelly?

          • cjvg

            No, she is a true wild pig that we caught when she was about 4 months old.

            She had such a lovely personality (she would actually “laugh” at us every time we fed her) that we kept her and she just lets herself out of her pig paradise (raised sheltered sleeping place with hay, mud wallow , plenty of rooting area etc, yes I spoil all my animals) and walks around lose begging for treats next to my dog.

          • marshmallow

            She sounds adorable. I’m jealous. My kitty doesn’t talk much, so I miss out on the stimulating philosophical pronouncements that you are exposed to.

          • cjvg

            That is true, but you have sayak who sounds like he is attempting to fulfill the same position, minus the cute and adorable factor (definitely minus the cute and adorable factor)

            You might have no idea what he is babbling on about, but he has managed to convey to you that he finds his statements very important and he wants a “cookie” from you for the “excellent” arguments he is bringing to your attention.

          • marshmallow

            Yes. GET a load of this bullshit:

            I would urge Marshmellow and Jennifer to maintain civility and not to jump to conclusions about my point of view. Now some clarifications.

            Even today medical practitioners routinely make calls in case of complications whether to counsel for abortions to mothers who may not want it. Since Marshmellow was talking about harm caused by pregnancy and arguing for abortion that way, i merely pointed to the fact that this decision should be done by the medical community. If one is putting a medical argument, why such outrage when I say doctors get to decide if the argument of medical danger works or not? To some extent Marshmellow was putting up an odd argument, very few mothers who have normal pregnancy go for abortion because of the relatively modest physical inconveniences caused by the presence of the fetus. (If there are surveys that show this not to be the case, i will retract this assertion.) The causes are primarily sociological and psychological and economic. They are potentially very reasonable causes, but they were not the ones you were talking about.

            Rapist Question:- In the extreme off-chance the victim has a perfectly obvious way of incapacitating the rapist without killing him and she knows it at that time but still chooses a second deadlier alternative, then I am not sure. Never happens for a rape in general. But in a police-offender situation more common and the police person can be punished for using excessive deadly force when other means of incapacitating the offender were available. Secondly the the degree of harm done by a rapist is usually of a greater magnitude than a fetus. Bodily infringement is not some holy cow that justifies everything, If my dog jumps in your lap and you blast its brains off with a pistol because it was infringing ur space, i am going to sue even if you have some mild allergy to dog hair and put it as ur defense.

            Let’s take this self defense argument off the table shall we? Most mothers don’s suffer severe complications and if fetus’s right to life were to be recognized, all that would be needed to redeem “inconvenience caused” concerns is to mandate adequate compensation (generous disability benefits) to pregnant women! While that might be good idea in and of itself (i will vote for it), that is hardly sufficient to redress the kind of reasons that REALLY motivate a woman to choose abortion.

            Let me be clear, for many people are mistaking my stance. I am PRO-ABORTION, but (except for medical complications) I believe abortion to be analogous to Positive Discrimination being temporarily in place to balance out the effects of an existent social evil. This evil is the heavy burden of motherhood being laid upon women by society. This burden ranges from social taboos (single moms, teenage moms), economic burdens (loss of career, jobs, educational opportunities) and many others. But the point of a Positive Discrimination is to alleviate some of the consequences of a social evil while efforts are being made to cure the evil in the first place. There would be no need for positive discrimination when a women no longer has any concerns about raising a child regardless of her station in life and society, a point where one does not have to plan ahead for 10-15 years to feel comfortable about starting a family. I think what the bodily autonomy and self defense argument misses is that most women choose abortion because of deeply inlaid socio-economic and psychological duress in a society that either actively punishes or is indifferent to the hardships of child rearing responsibilities.

          • cjvg

            This guy is hurting my head with his improbable and circular logic.
            However I do want to refute his points, here it goes.

            “this decision should be done by the medical community. If one is putting a medical argument, why such outrage when I say doctors get to decide if the argument of medical danger works or not”

            -NO, doctors never decide which legally available medical procedure you have to choose, mainly because they are not the ones who will have to life or die with the consequences. Doctors merely explain which procedures are available and the pro’s and con’s of each procedure, then the patient decided what level of risk they are willing to take!

            “in a police-offender situation more common and the police person can be punished for using excessive deadly force when other means of incapacitating the offender were available”.

            -of course the police is held to a higher standard, the polices job is to protect and serve the public, even if some members of that public are a danger to themselves and/or others that does not excuse them from their primary assignment. Also the police is specifically trained engage criminal activity in dangerous situations, however they are not the sole arbiter of the law and do not have the right to play executioner at will. A woman being raped is allowed to defend herself by any means possible if a better option is available she is not trained to recognize and use the better option in a violent situation.

            “Bodily infringement is not some holy cow that justifies everything, If my dog jumps in your lap and you blast its brains off with a pistol because it was infringing ur space, i am going to sue even if you have some mild allergy to dog hair and put it as ur defense.”

            - Really that is the best you can do. Bodily infringement most certainly protects you from my need to use your kidney. I can not mandate that you must donate the use of any of your organs to me, even if your refusal to do so causes my death. So regardless of the fact that I am a living sentient aware and already present human with a right to life that most certainly surpasses that of a fetus that is not even sentient yet! not infringe on your bodily sanctity

            “Let’s take this self defense argument off the table shall we? Most mothers don’s suffer severe complications and if fetus’s right to life were to be recognized, all that would be needed to redeem “inconvenience caused” concerns is to mandate adequate compensation (generous disability benefits) to pregnant women!”

            -NO, nothing can compensate for someone forcing you to undergo the life altering painful use of your body against your will. So called concern for a potential life , while dismissing the life already here and realized is inane and cast a very dubious light and the purported concern of a life not even realized yet. Not one single doctor can guarantee that a pregnancy is going to end well and will not cause long term damage or even death, not one, Some women die during or shortly after birth from stroke or hearth failure or have incapacitating seizures after a perfectly normal healthy pregnancy,what right do you have to decided that a woman must accept these risks?

            ” I think what the bodily autonomy and self defense argument misses is that most women choose abortion because of deeply inlaid socio-economic and psychological duress in a society that either actively punishes or is indifferent to the hardships of child rearing responsibilities.”
            - The point that you are missing is that IT IS NOT YOUR PLACE TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR WOMEN YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW. You are consummately condescending and irrationally convinced that you are the ultimate authority on what women want, need and should be allowed to do with their own bodies! Worst of all you are lecturing actual women on why they are wrong about why they want/need abortion and reproductive choice to be their own free choice to make It is easy to argue that women should not have the right to ownership of their own bodies when you are a 100% guaranteed to not suffer the consequences of your stance!
            Ps; learn some actual biology and fetal development before you state that a fetus has a right to life.
            A fetus does not have the l brain structure that houses sentience and consciousness until at least 26 weeks of gestation, well past were a legal abortion can be obtained. Obviously the woman right to life and sanctity of her body must supersede that of a fetus time.

          • marshmallow

            He is a mansplainer extraordinaire. This is how I responded:

            “I am deeply sorry Mr. Banerjee. Allow me to apologize on behalf of Jennifer. She, and other persons with uterii, really need to learn some civility after being told (as you have so eloquently explained in your above post) that women are:

            1) too stupid and/or mentally incompetent to make their own medical/health decisions or decide who or what will use their bodies

            2) she and other persons with uterii should just accept that they are for making babies, and that with enough social/financial support they can fulfill their evolutionary/god-given role as baby factories

            Thank you so much for laying it all out so clearly. You have single-handedly solved the abortion debate.

            I don’t know where the women of the world would be without kind souls such as yourself to mansplain to them about what reproductive rights and choices a woman should be permitted to make.

            God Bless”

          • cjvg

            Did he even have a response to that or did he decide to pretend it never happened?

          • marshmallow

            No response for 2 days.

          • cjvg

            I would not hold my breath waiting for one either. It is just so darn inconvenient if they have to deal with facts and the inane and emotional appeals are just not cutting it.

          • marshmallow

            Yes, his buddy Acyutananda also ignored my reply to his argument:

            Acyutananda wrote:

            “A person in the same room as you is not the same as a person in your body. Get that through your head.”

            I’ve got it so far. In those two sentences, you’re saying that the
            nature of the sacrifice is important, not only the degree. The first
            paragraph of your post probably says the same. But here –

            “Unwanted pregnancy is a rape that won’t stop for nine months”

            – you change direction. (For this discussion, I will ignore the
            peculiar analogy between a rapist and a totally innocent and helpless
            person, and stick to the main point.) Here you’re saying that the issue
            is the period of time, that is, the degree.

            So it’s still not clear. Is “in your body” an important issue IN ITSELF, apart from degree of sacrifice, or isn’t it?

            An example that (like all of Thomson’s analogies) would be
            far-fetched, but might make the question clear, would be this: If
            pregnancy were risk-free and only for 90 minutes (you refrain from
            killing an innocent baby, which means you lend your body, for 90
            minutes, including labor and delivery), followed by immediate adoption
            of the baby by someone, would you have a moral obligation to carry the
            baby to term, or would it be only a morally-optional act of generosity
            for you to do so? You are at the hospital already (so abortion is an
            option), but your health is fine, and you will not lose your job or
            anything by having the baby. The hospital folks can kill the baby in 15
            minutes if you say so. Do you have any moral obligation?

            One more way to put it: Should society declare an unborn baby’s life
            to be forfeit NOT to spare the mother a sacrifice that is proportionate
            to the value of the baby’s life, but just to uphold an ideological
            point?”

            My reply:

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/12/03/does-it-make-sense-to-be-a-pro-life-atheist/#comment-1164905370
            ——————-

            He didn’t ignore Feminerd or ansuz. Just me. I guess because they are genteel, and were willing to engage him on an ‘intellectual’ level, in a ‘civilized’ manner. Whereas I shoved the offensiveness of what he expects women to do right in his face.

          • marshmallow

            acyu and sayak are buddies

            I am sure of it

            And acyu asked Sayak to drop by as backup – that’s the only thing that explains Sayak’s sudden appearance

            And they are East Indian, which probably explains the ‘women as inferiors’ vibe we are getting from them

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah. Acyu even stated on his blog “Here in India where I live…”

          • marshmallow

            It really pisses me off how, in the face of *all* of the evidence of how dangerous pregnancy is, even a ‘normal’ one, Sayak (and others) have the gall to suggest that the side effects of pregnancy are just ‘modest’ inconvenience, and not really a health issue at all. And besides, it should be up to a panel of doctors to tell you how much risk you should take! I don’t think numbnuts quite understands that any pregnancy, no matter how healthy, can go wrong at any time. Just like that. You will be fine one minute, and the next you are bleeding from all of your orifices. And no doctor can predict that. Just like they can’t predict your chances of dying of PPH, or getting an auto-immune disease or PPD after birth.

            And that to kill the fetus = the use of excessive force. Because like, you shouldn’t be able to kill your rapist either if you can get away by other means! but but…the ONLY way to escape from the fetus is to remove it from your body…killing it. It’s not like women have a choice, they can’t run away from a fetus like they can from a rapist! And he is also operating under the delusion that all rapes must be violent, and that pregnancy in comparison is like having an allergy to dogs!!?!

            He conveniently wipes away the health issues that women face from pregnancy, and most galling of all, seems to believe that all women will want to have babies once they are given a form of ‘disability insurance’ for their troubles. For a Stanford guy, he really does fail at logic, because if it was merely a manner of social/financial support wouldn’t upper middle class and rich women all have like 10+ kids? And why would anyone bother using contraception if the ONLY reason not to have more and more kids is financial/social in nature?

          • Jennifer Starr

            In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they ran the blog together, with Sayak using the concern-trolling strategy on his end. And I love how upset they get about insults–no doubt they consider that behavior to be ‘unladylike’.

          • marshmallow

            Those two are the definition of mansplaining pseudo-intellects.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There was a dictator in Romania who thought that forced pregnancy was a good thing to expand the population :

            In 1966, Ceaușescu, in an attempt to boost the country’s population, made abortion illegal, and introducedDecree 770 to reverse the very low birth rate and fertility rate. Mothers of at least five children would be entitled to significant benefits, while mothers of at least ten children were declared heroine mothers by the Romanian state. Few women ever sought this status; instead, the average Romanian family during the time had two to three children. Furthermore, a considerable number of women either died or were maimed during clandestine abortions.

            Is that really the kind of society you want to see?

          • Ella Warnock

            I think they actually do. Women suffering disfigurement or death from repeated pregnancies or illegal abortions? Right up their alley. That’s what happens to wicked women who “spread their legs.” As if they can continue to sell the idea that’s it’s all about the “innocent babies.”

          • JamieHaman

            Yep, he is cool with that…someone to take care of him in his old age. He will never have an abortion, never have health issues without one, will never. Sure feels free to tell women what they have to live with to take care of HIM though.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Yes, it is…oh wait, I don’t think he gets that far, he just sees the Baybee’s and that’s it. Doesn’t care about quality of life or any of that.

            Or maybe he does, IDK.

            Sorry for babbling!

          • marshmallow

            Feel free to babble. That’s all we do.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Thanks! Honestly, I think he just lives in a fantasy land.

          • marshmallow

            Creating more people in order to exploit them is immoral.

          • L-dan

            ooo… so we’re going to force people to gestate and birth babies because someone feels we don’t have enough people. Never mind that the Earth is groaning under the weight of billions of us.

            Who’s doing the draft of these demographic conscripts?

            That’s leaving aside the whole fact that we’re not killing our babies. That’s infanticide, not abortion.

            Instead of morals, how about teaching your kids facts about reproduction, consent, contraception? It works better that way if the goal is to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Bahahaha,
            Ok I just finished laughing at the ridiculousness of your post

            For 1 while in womb they are a fetus and not viable on the own
            2 Abortions happen for many reasons
            Mothers health, be it mental or physical
            Fetal defects – inc missing organs, limbs, disability
            Rape, incest or even an abusive partner – I know I wouldnt want to carry or birth a child from any of these

            And the best one of all -FREE WILL, some people just dont want to have a child and thats their choice
            You realise contraception fails and is not 100% effective?

            Abortions have been going on forever, just now they are done in a sterile, safe environment.
            NOT in a backyard clinic, coat hanger, being punched and kicked in the gut or using one of them many old wives tale remedies

            As for the morals, guess what having sex dosent make you immoral, getting pregnant and choosing abortion does not make you immoral.
            Better teach any girls to stay home and never leave un chaperoned, dont need to choose to have sex to become pregnant and while we at it teach any sons not to be that guy who pressures or even forces (rapes) a girl. That guy is the cause of many abortions

            Sounds like you want women in pig stalls with their sole purpose of popping out kids. Pathetic and twisted

            Id rather be a ‘rabid’ feminist over a forced birther and anti choicer ANYDAY

          • CJ99

            Better learn some morals yourself there. the human population on this planet is over 6 billion and many are living in poverty not only health wise but lacking in many other much needed things. we cannot demand people keep having huge numbers of kids or stop having sex entirely cause of the bizzarre religous hangups of so few zealots.

          • anja

            Actually, it’s over 7 billion!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. I will have hot sex. I will use contraception. If I get pregnant, I will abort or give birth as I see fit. Not as YOU see fit.

          • goatini

            But since no babies are ever harmed in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal termination, your post would be a steaming load of, um, nonsense.

          • fiona64

            Right now we are short people.

            Actually, comparatively speaking throughout history, we are tall people.

            Oh, wait. You’re trying to pretend the earth is not overpopulated.

            Laughable.

          • anja

            What? We’re short people? You’ve got that backwards.

        • goatini

          No babies are ever harmed in any way in a safe, legal pregnancy termination, because all babies, ever, have already been born.

        • L-dan

          Since a. we’re not killing babies, and b. we continue to live just fine after abortions, I don’t see what kind of point you have here.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Just another forcedbirther pervert enjoying its fantasy of killing children. It expects to be seen as compassionate. LOL.

        • LisaC

          Just saying we could live without killing our own babies

          He says “our babies” because in his world, of course, women are communal property and their offspring are owned by society as a whole.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And he thinks women should be forced to have babies for the good of society.

        • colleen2

          I agree. Killing babies is a terrible thing and a practice that should stop. That said, there is no “killing of babies” when women have abortions. Zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and most fetuses are not viable. ‘Personhood’ occurs at viability, until then the ONLY comment ‘we’ want to hear from folks like you is a sincere “thank you” to the women CHOOSING to gestate and give birth.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          My babies are not your babies.
          My babies will never be your babies.
          You come anywhere near my babies in real life and try to enforce your forcedbirth agenda, and I will rip your berries off, nail your twig to a wall, and urinate on your bleeding spasming body.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Only Plan B is not an abortion.

    • Ella Warnock

      Who’s “we,” paleface? Got a mouse in your pocket?

      • Sam

        It amazes me how many people are for killing babies. The sanctity for life has gone into the toilet. I am not for forcing anyone to do anything. It is a personal choice to abort your baby, no doubt about that. The problem is that now there are clinic aborting late term babies and groups fighting to make this legal everywhere! It’s sick!

        • marshmallow

          Explain why fetal life is sacred.

          • Sam

            You were a fetus once. Do you feel that you weren’t important?

          • marshmallow

            *I* was not a fetus once because that fetus was only a potential me. And, unlike you, I am not so narcissistic to believe that my right to live should give me the right to harm others.

          • goatini

            The ones who reminisce longingly about their imaginary time as a fetus are usually the ones who fear that, had their mothers had choice, they wouldn’t be here.

          • marshmallow

            That’s it in a nutshell.

          • L-dan

            The fetus that became me was pretty unimportant. “I” could have just as easily have been one of the three or four that didn’t make it to birth. One of my mother’s miscarriages was up at the 4 or 5 month mark. I don’t think any of them are fussed about not becoming people–not having the capacity to fuss and all. Neither am I particularly fussed that I was that close to not becoming the person I am.

          • Ella Warnock

            I’m not the same person that I was three years ago, much less as a fetus. It’s an insult to say I’m the **same** person I was as a fetus. Good grief, of course I’m not. And I agree with L-dan; there are any number of things that could have happened between conception and birth.

            For example, my mother contracted the measles during her first trimester with me. I might not have survived that, but my parents would be the ones to experience a loss of the child they dreamed of. To me, of course, it would have meant nothing.

          • fiona64

            Every 10 years, every single cell in your body has been replaced. That means that, after 5 decades on this planet, I am *significantly* removed from my fetal state … not only intellectually, but physically.

            I will always thing that a born, sapient, sentient person (you know, like a pregnant woman happens to be) is more important than a fetus. A fetus is merely a potential person. A woman is a real one.

            Every time I read some dumbassed statement like yours, I am embarrassed that I was ever anti-choice. Thank you for reminding me that it is possible to move and grow intellectually rather than being stuck in stagnant stupidity.

        • marshmallow

          And citation needed for the late term part. Clinics don’t abort healthy pregnancies at 30 weeks. You are lying.

          • Sam

            They just put a guy in prison for late term abortions. His name was Gosnell. Also, the democrat senator in Texas just tried to legalize late term abortions but she lost. Don’t say it doesn’t happen because it does.

          • marshmallow

            Gosnell was sent to prison because he broke the law and killed viable babies. If it happens as you describe and was not against the law, Gosnell would not be in jail. Derp.

          • goatini

            1. RH Reality Check was one of the first news aggregating outfits to publicize Gosnell’s crimes. February 24, 2010, to be exact. We are well aware that this criminal, who was arrested, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced, was NOT a legitimate provider of safe, legal reproductive health care services.

            2. Senator Wendy Davis attempted to prevent the un-Constitutional restrictions that the regressive state of Texas wanted to impose on the Federally recognized standards on safe, legal pregnancy termination, and the response of the Texas Legislature was to place a false time stamp on the end of her filibuster to wrongfully negate it.

            3. ALL safe, legal late-term pregnancy terminations are for tragic, heartbreaking reasons – ALL of which are NONE of your business.

          • Sam

            You lefties don’t waste an opportunity to defend abortion, gay marriage, or any other immorality. Your intelligence is limited to your own hedonism. You are your own gods. If you actually engaged a brain cell and allowed your thoughts to expand, it would probably blow your brains out. Everything we do affects someone else. Like ripples in water. We have to look to higher standards, not lower standards if we ever hope to improve things. I never implied that people should be forced to do anything. The state of Texas wanted to limit abortions to 20 weeks gestation. Your buddy, Wendy Davis, wanted to legalize the abortion beyond that.

          • goatini

            America is not and will never be a theocracy. You’re welcome to have whatever God or Gods you want to believe in, but you’re not welcome to force your superstitions and mythology on me.

            Anyone who thinks there is anything wrong whatsoever with women’s rights to reproductive healthcare, including contraception and safe, legal pregnancy termination; or with marriage equality (and equal rights for all citizens regardless of sexual orientation); is welcome to either mind their own business, or to move to a theocracy like Saudi Arabia.

            The Federal guidelines as to limitations for safe, legal pregnancy terminations is recognized as 24 weeks. We will continue to tirelessly work to ensure that ALL states conform to the Federal guidelines, and that these essential civil, human and Constitutional rights for women are protected into perpetuity.

          • Sam

            No one is forcing anything on you. It is the left who is forcing their beliefs on everyone else. They reject the Constitution and God. The left embraces all immorality. Poverty and immorality go hand and hand.

          • marshmallow

            No, you want to force birth on women.

            We want to give women the choice to make their own decisions.

          • Sam

            I don’t want to force anyone to do anything. The point is that if we teach a few morals, abortions will go down. Most women get abortion because they had an inconvenient pregnancy from unprotected sex. The free love movement hasn’t made our society better. If anything, it’s gotten much worse and created enslavement.

          • marshmallow

            Women have always had abortions and always will. Illegal abortion rates were quite high in the ‘moral’ 1950s when people still had premarital sex and affairs. Nothing has changed. People are not less moral. Additionally, married women with children have abortions. It’s not just young immoral teens as you are implying. 1 in 3 women will have an abortion. BTW, sex is not an immoral act. I suggest you worry about your own life instead of trying to control female sexuality.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Yes, you do want to force people
            Force them to live by the bible and its supposed ‘righht’ way to live
            Sorry religion is losing is mind control on the masses and we are wising up

          • Sam

            There is a right way to live. It’s called the Ten Commandments. Which part do you not like? “Thou shall not murder”? Think we should murder people? How about “honor your mother and father”? Is that a bad idea? You can hate God all you want but if not for Bible believing people, you wouldn’t be living in a free country.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Maybe no one’s told you, but we don’t live in a theocracy.

          • Sam

            I know we don’t live in a theocracy but we do live in a Christian-Judea culture. Read Deuteronomy. Notice that the same animals that God said not to eat are the same animals we still don’t normally eat, like horse and snake. Our cultural roots are deep. David Brog wrote “In Defense of Faith”, and compiles the evidence for what this culture has done for humanity. A nation that forgets God ends up in hell. This is the truth.

          • marshmallow

            Yet we mix wool with other fabrics and grow veggies next to fruit. All stuff that is immoral and banned in the full commandments. Oh and disobedient children are to be stoned and people still eat horse meat, snake, all throughout the judeo Christian world. Oh, and you are breaking biblical law if you have ever sat on a seat after a menstruating woman.

          • fiona64

            So, do you avoid going near to rabbits? Do you eschew eating shellfish? Do you stone your children to death for disobedience?

            How many of the other Mosaic laws are you obeying? You can’t just pick and choose if you want to bring up Deuteronomy as a lifestyle guide.

          • marshmallow

            Yet your precious bible endorsed slavery, genocide, and baby killing. I suggest you read numbers5, wherein a woman suspected of adultery is given a drink that will induce a miscarriage to kill the other man’s fetus

          • Sam

            you sound like satan

          • marshmallow

            Don’t like the truth about your immoral bible little man?

          • Sam

            you have taken the Bible out of context which people who don’t read it will do to justify what they don’t really know. The Bible stands for Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. It’s not immoral but people are.

          • marshmallow

            It is not out of context dumbass. Slavery was what people did back then. You ignorant shitstain.

          • Sam

            Do you eat with the same mouth you talk with? The Bible isn’t about a perfect people. It gives us lessons. You act like it is telling us to go do those bad things. It is showing us why we should not do immoral things, like cuss people out.

          • marshmallow

            yes, and the bible’s lessons are:

            1) don’t mix fabrics

            2) don’t mix certain types of vegetables in your garden

            3) beat your son to death if he disobeys

            4) that it’s ok to sell your daughter into sexual slavery

            5) that genocide, baby killing and rape are acceptable if done to infidels

          • fiona64

            The Bible stands for Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth.

            Actually, no. The word is derived from biblios which is merely Greek for “book.”

            You really are showing yourself to be a ninny …

          • Ineedacoffee

            People wrote the bible, wasnt handed down from some fairy in the sky
            So since it was written by immoral people stands to reason the bible is immoral too

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Well, is it a good thing to force a woman to have a miscarriage in order to discern if she committed adultery?

            Is that good for society?

          • Sam

            Tell me the book and verse you are talking about and I can explain. I have never seen that in the Bible. This may have been pagan law. It’s not Christian principle.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Numbers five. Still does not explain why everyone should have to live the same religion.

          • Sam

            You better read that chapter again. There is nothing there about forcing a woman to have a miscarriage. Numbers is in the Old Testament. It is a book of history when God was teaching the Jews how to obey. We go by the New Testament today.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Okay, still doesn’t explain why people should have to live by YOUR religion.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Many Christians and other religious people do not support Sam’s stance on abortion. Sam is a liar who thinks he is righteous. He is just “lying for Jesus.”
            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_for_Jesus

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Oh yeah, I know a fair amount of pro-choice Christians!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Sam is what is known in the vernacular as “a lying sack of shyte.”

          • Sam

            Look at the principles and values that came out of the Christian-Judea culture. They really work or we wouldn’t be living in a free America. An excellent read is “In Defense of Faith” by David Brog. It is a historical account of what this culture has brought to the world. He goes into the Crusades, too, and talks about them. It is not about religion. It is about a personal relationship with our Creator and looking to Him for the answers instead of our own sinful hearts. Deep down inside, you have to know that there is something much bigger than us.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            So we need religion to be moral? Yeah right.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What do your religious musings have to do with me getting a safe and legal medical abortion?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You better actually read the passage. Under Mosaic law a jealous husband could subject his wife to a trial by ordeal (abortion). Proof of adultery was the dead fetus.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Wrong. You did not even read the passage, did you?

            Jehovah, god of the Bible, advocates abortion as a tool of genocidal war in the OT. Is Jehovah the god of the NT?

            Mosaic law provides a trial by ordeal for a woman accused of adultery that is an abortion. Proof of adultery being the dead fetus as recorded in Numbers 5. Jesus never said one word about abortion because it was known and practiced among the Jews.

            from Judaism 101:
            Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

            An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Numbers 5:15 Mosaic Law. If a husband is jealous, he forces his wife or concubine to a trial by ordeal (an abortion). Proof of adultery being the expelled fetus.
            …………………..
            Jewish Law, the Tanach, is our Old Testament.

            Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother’s life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

            An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother’s, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have read the Bible. I am a Christian. Do not pretend all Christians are opposed to abortion. That is an untruth.
            The Bible is a poor teacher of morals and if you followed Bibllical morality today, you would be arrested. Read the book you thump.

          • marshmallow

            Many translations of the Bible use the word “servant”, “bondservant”, or “manservant” instead of “slave” to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn’t mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.

            The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock:

            “However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)”

            The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.

            “If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)”

            Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?

            The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?

            “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)”

            So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!

            What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don’t die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.

            “When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)”

            You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

            “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)”

            “Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)”

            In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.

            “The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)”

          • Ineedacoffee

            Well since I dont believe god is real I dont believe satan is either, But i’ll play
            Least satan knows how to throw a killer party

          • Ineedacoffee

            There it is, if people dont live by that way they are wrong
            Them ‘commandments’ are the biggest load of bull
            I refuse to honour my father, even in death, that bastard was a gambling addicted alco who used to beat me. I lived in squalor with no electricity or hot water most of the time.
            He like totes deserves respect

            There is no murder before birth, once the fetus is born then if you kill the baby its murder. Big difference, even if only a small time frame difference

            The bible promotes hatred and intolerance. Women as lesser beings, gays as lesser beings, do I need to go on, I mean really?
            Free my ass, That goes for Australia (my country) and USA

          • fiona64

            I’m sorry to have to break this to you, but David Barton is telling you lies. Either that, or you were homeschooled by ninnies.

            The government of this country is based on English common law and the second of Locke’s Two Treatises on Government. You might want to repeat high school civics.

            Or elementary school social studies.

          • Sam

            David Barton is the leading expert in America on the Constitution and religious history in America. At times, he has testified in front of the Supreme Courts as to the original intention. The man knows what he is talking about.

          • marshmallow

            Conservatives and other evangelicals are distancing themselves from Barton because he is full of shit:

            In a poll taken by History News Network, Barton’s newest work, The Jefferson Lies, topped the list of “least credible history works in print.” The same work met a unanimous chorus of refutations from Jefferson public humanities scholar and radio personality Clay Jenkinson, from religious historians ranging from Martin Marty to John Fea, and (in the full length work Getting Jefferson Right) from Grove City College professors Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter.

            Most recently, conservative scholars have begun to pile on. Thomas Kidd, the well-respected Baylor historian
            known for his excellent works in early American history as well as his contributions to conservative intellectual periodicals, reported in World Magazine (“Today’s News, Christian Views”) on
            a growing chorus from conservative evangelicals and Catholics who agreed generally with Barton’s emphasis on the importance of religion in the founding, but felt that Barton’s work, both in books
            as well as in his widely used video series, was replete with
            “embarrassing factual errors, suspiciously selective quotes, and highly misleading claims.”

            Then, in “David Barton’s Errors,” Greg Forster, a scholar of John Locke and religion, went through Barton’s references to Locke’s supposed support for conservative Christian faith, and found that Barton’s “inability to write reliable history stretches beyond ideological cheerleading into outright incompetence.” His piece details those errors to devastating effect, and this from an author who previously wrote another essay on how Locke had led him to his Christian faith. Perhaps most importantly, Grove City college professors Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter sliced and diced their way through The Jefferson Lies, leaving little but pulp at the bottom of their scholarly veg-o-matic.

            Thomas Nelson, publisher of David Barton’s The Jefferson Lies and a substantial catalog of Christian works (some serious and respectable, some amusingly kitschy such as The Patriot’s Bible, an “extremely unique Bible” that illustrates biblical verses with inspiring scenes from American history), finally has had enough.

            On Thursday, the publisher announced that it would pull from publication The Jefferson Lies. “In the course of our review,” the publisher said that it had “learned that there were some historical details included in the book that were not adequately supported,” and that “because of these deficiencies” it was “in the best interest of our readers to stop the publication and distribution” of the work.

          • fiona64

            David Barton is the leading expert in America on the Constitution

            Excuse me for just a moment.

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

            There. I feel much better now.

          • Sam

            Don’t forget to wipe yourself off.

          • marshmallow

            Wipe the shit off your face first.

          • fiona64

            ‘fess up; you were touching yourself when you wrote that, weren’t you, Sammy?

          • Jennifer Starr

            He has no formal training in history. His ‘degree’ is from Oral Roberts ‘University’. He’s a pseudo-historian, he often makes up historical quotes, he was pimping the ‘prayer journal’ of George Washington a while back, even though most historians say that it’s a fraud. Even fellow conservative Christians, like Jay W. Richards of the Discovery Institute have said that his work is full of “embarrassing factual errors, suspiciously selective quotes, and highly misleading claims.” see http://www.worldmagdotcom/2012/08/the_david_barton_controversy

          • goatini

            hahahahahahahaha a David Barton apologist

            Well, there just went any last shred of putative credibility from that one.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Abortion is not murder.

          • fiona64

            Actually, most women get pregnant because their contraception fails. Even surgical sterilizations fail, you know.

            You *do* know that, don’t you?

            And you’re the one advocating enslavement, since you think a woman’s freedoms should be curtailed the moment she becomes pregnant …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Married women get abortions. Go away. You sound like a sexual deviant.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            Why should we all have to be Christians? Just because that is your religion and you want to ‘save’ us from hell in order to feel good about yourself?

          • Ella Warnock

            Rejection of god, or any deity, isn’t illegal. It also does not automatically follow that atheists or agnostics or humanists behave in immoral ways. I could give you a number of examples of Good Christians (TM) that I’ve known over the years, including in my own family, who were anything BUT moral. But, hey, the important point was that they were FORGIVEN.

            Not that any of them ever bothered to ask for forgiveness from those they actually trespassed against. I’d rather slit my wrists than behave the way they do, all the while thinking that they’re not really responsible because, well, jesus. These are the last people I would want defining what “morality” is for the rest of us.

          • Ineedacoffee

            Bloody hell, your bat shit crazy
            god and religion suppresses people well unless your an old white guy, then feel free to touch up the little boys.

            Being told how to live by a fairy tale book, believing its real and also expecting others to live by it is FORCING your beliefs on others
            Religion and Immorality go hand in hand Id say.
            I really shouldnt need to list why

          • fiona64

            Citations needed. For all of it.

          • marshmallow

            What’s wrong with gay marriage?
            What’s wrong with hedonism?
            What’s wrong with not wanting to be enslaved to a fetus?

          • L-dan

            Good for her. I’m donating to her campaign for governor. This is what happens when you ban abortion at 20 weeks (copy/paste since links tend to send my comments to moderation):

            “Dear Governors and Legislators,

            My state was the first of a handful of states to enact a so-called “20
            week abortion ban.” I am from Grand Island, Nebraska, where I live with
            my husband Robb and our beautiful son.

            Because lawmakers in my home state of Nebraska passed a sweeping abortion ban similar to legislation poised to pass in Arizona, Georgia, New Hampshire, and beyond, my family’s personal loss a year and a half ago became a nightmare. You cannot imagine what we went through.

            I implore you to read my story.

            In August 2010, I was overjoyed to discover I was pregnant. My husband and I still wanted nothing more than to give my son a brother or sister. For weeks, my pregnancy was proceeding normally. But then 22 weeks into my pregnancy, it went terribly wrong.

            On Saturday, November 27, my water broke and there was not enough amniotic fluid for my daughter to survive. This was heartbreaking. If there was anything we could have done to save her, we would have.

            What happened next should have remained a very private decision between me and my family and my doctors. As the result of a law similar to a bill considered by your state’s legislature, a decision that should have remained mine and my husband’s at a very difficult time was decided for us — and it was decided by politicians we’d never met.

            My husband and I agonized over the decision about what was best for our family. After much careful thought, prayer, research and medical advice, my husband and I made the difficult decision that we wanted to induce labor and deliver my daughter as soon as possible.

            We wanted to honor our daughter. We wanted to hold her and say goodbye. We wanted to preserve my health.

            We should have been able to handle this with dignity with our doctor. The very best medical care should have been available to me. But as I said, Nebraska law interfered.

            Even though I wasn’t looking for an abortion, my doctor and his legal counsel felt their hands were tied. “If I could help you, I would,” he said, looking me in my tear-filled eyes. “But I would go to jail.”

            The law, as you know, is black and white. Unfortunately, life just isn’t. Though an infection was growing inside me, under the law I wasn’t sick enough to warrant the induction my husband and I wanted.

            Some have suggested my husband and I should have traveled to another state, but we didn’t want to leave my doctor’s care. And we didn’t want to drive home with my daughter in a box.

            So we waited. For days.

            While we waited, we tried to pray, but we didn’t know what to pray for. So we spent our days and nights telling our daughter how much we loved her, how sorry we were, and how we wished we could do something different.

            Then on Wednesday, December 8, my daughter was born. My husband and I held Elizabeth as she gasped for air, and mere minutes later she was gone.

            There are no words for how awful the 10 days were from the moment my water broke to the day my daughter died. There are no words for the heartbreak that cut deeper every time she moved inside of me for those 10 days.

            There are no words for the anger I felt when I learned after Elizabeth was born that my infection could have been analyzed, had my doctor been able to get to it sooner. With more information about what caused the problem, we might be able to have a subsequent healthy pregnancy and birth. But 10 days later, the infection was just too severe.

            Women and doctors are faced with difficult and complicated pregnancies every day. But the political groups and politicians behind House Bills 2036, 954, and 1660 paint with a broad brush. Even when they concede to health exceptions in the law, women facing a range of pregnancy complications are prevented from necessary medical care. It happened to me. When asked about my circumstances, the author of Nebraska’s law said it worked as intended.

            This is not about politics, it’s about leaving the practice of medicine up to doctors and most importantly, it’s about trusting women to make the best decisions for themselves and their families. It’s what Arizona and Georgia women deserve.

            That my pregnancy ended, that choice was made by God. How to handle the end of my pregnancy, that should have been private.

            Please right the wrong that Nebraska did to me and stop Arizona House Bill 2036, Georgia House Bill 954, and New Hampshire House Bill 1660. I want my daughter’s life — and the tragic circumstances surrounding her death– to stand for something.

            Thank you,
            Danielle Deaver”

            The fact that you think *this* is moral says far more about how sick your mind is than the fact that we see nothing wrong with gay marriage or abortion.

          • marshmallow

            I have been reading LAN off and on and those dimwits actually make the argument that even breathing for 2 minutes is better than not breathing at all.

            And made this argument for…an anencephalic fetus!!!!

            Yes, because it should at least *experience* life.

            And besides, it might feel pain! So better to let it live!

          • L-dan

            I don’t get this ‘life at all costs’ thing.

            I didn’t get it as my grandmother denied her oncoming death so fiercely that family members had to make plans around her unless they wanted to be picking out a casket on short notice after her death. She built her entire day around routines to eke out a few extra days or minutes…maybe.

            Everyone agreed that my grandfather was betrayed by his strong heart that just would not stop beating, even though there was nothing left of ‘him’ in the shell.

            I don’t get the reverence for every moment of life when you’re talking about zygotes that are mostly doomed to never even implant., that are just little masses of biological processes with all the depth and complexity of an eggplant.

            And I certainly don’t get it when they’re talking about the difference between an abortion or bringing a fetus to term that will take two gasping breaths. If it *can* feel at that point, its entire ‘life’ is suffering, gasping, animal *need* for oxygen, animal terror in the dim awareness of life slipping away. Because that desire to *live* is an animal instinct. And we are animals. But what makes us human is the ways we transcend that.

            I think, with our capacity for reason, we know what an animal doesn’t; that there’s no reason to prolong pain to satisfy that instinct. That fighting for extra terrified moments is not really living. We’re even willing to stake out the things we are affirmatively willing to die for. We’re human partly *because* we can *choose* death.

            *wanders down off of soapbox*

          • marshmallow

            I have been researching secular pro-life arguments and I came across this doozy:

            http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/01/life-defining-the-beginning-by-the-end-24

            She thinks she has found a way around the hydaditiform mole/cancer as human organism argument by saying that, since they started out defective, they can’t possibly be human organism, not like the precious *healthy* zygote (that we know is healthy right, because we can see into the future).

            And she also thinks that since a person in an irreversible coma is *functionally* alive as a *complete organism* that somehow this means they aren’t actually dead, and since the same can be said of embryos, embryos are human beings too!!!!!!!

          • L-dan

            Except that many miscarriages are due to ‘defects’ that are not really different from those of the mole/cancer save that they were not those ‘specific’ defects. Which is ridiculous. Personhood rides upon which specific bit of DNA is broken?

            As for the persistent comas, most people do not consider them as “there” anymore. They’re removed from life support (much like fetuses), but happen to still have enough brain function left to keep breathing, etc. Without someone willing to pay for care, they’re usually going to die of dehydration/starvation though.

          • marshmallow

            Yes and, it turns out that there are various forms of hydaditiform moles. Some are only partial. Some result in a *cephaly. Some result in Prader-willi syndrome and other defects.

            If a hdydaditiform mole isn’t a ‘child’ then neither is a severe case of Down Syndrome. Because both are ‘inherently defective’.

          • L-dan

            At least by their method of defining ‘person’ or ‘child’, yes. It’s a lack of real scientific understanding, and a horrible fear that either women will ‘get away with’ sex or that somehow they will retroactively cease to exist if they agree their mothers should have had the right to decide whether or not to have them.

          • marshmallow

            I wonder if stuff like this is faked. It just sounds too ‘convenient’ to be true. What kind of pre-med student is going to be allowed into an abortion? And every few months a story like this pops up:

            http://clinicquotes.com/testimony-of-a-medical-student/

            “To begin, I must say that until yesterday, Friday, July 2, 2004, I was strongly pro-choice. I am a pre-medical student, and being very scientific, I understood that the mass of cells that forms the fetal body is not often capable of survival before 24 weeks in the womb. I am also somewhat liberal, and I believed that every woman should have the right to choose what she did with her body and one that could potentially be growing inside of her. This summer, I was accepted into a pre-medical program in NYC in which we are allowed to shadow doctors and see all sorts of medical procedures. When given the opportunity to see an abortion, I did not hesitate to accept the offer. It was something new, edgy, and exciting that I had never seen. When I entered the operating room, it felt like any other I had ever been in. On the table in front of me, I saw a woman, legs up as if delivering a child although she was asleep. Next to her was a tray of instruments for the abortion and a vacuum machine for suctioning the fetal tissues from the uterus. The doctors put on their gowns and masks and the procedure began. The cervix was held open with a crude metal instrument and a large transparent tube was stuck inside of the woman. Within a matter of seconds, the machine’s motor was engaged and blood, tissue, and tiny organs were pulled out of their environment into a filter. A minute later, the vacuum choked to a halt. The tube was removed, and stuck to the end was a small body and a head attached haphazardly to it, what was formed of the neck snapped. The ribs had formed with a thin skin covering them, the eyes had formed, and the inner organs had begun to function. The tiny heart of the fetus,obviously a little boy, had just stopped — forever. The vacuum filter was opened, and the tiny arms and legs that had been torn off of the fetus were accounted for. The fingers and toes had the beginnings of their nails on them. The doctors, proud of their work, reassembled the body to show me. Tears welled up in my eyes as they removed the baby boy from the table and shoved his body into a container for disposal. I have not been able to think of anything since yesterday at 10:30 besides what that baby boy might have been. I don’t think that people realize what an abortion actually is until they see it happen. I have been tortured by these images – so real and so vivid – for two days now…and I was just a spectator. Never again will I be pro-choice, and never again will I support the murder of any human being, no matter their stage in life.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            That sounds less like an actual medical story and more like a creative fiction. Vacuum aspiration is only used during the first trimester and it’s very difficult to determine gender at that age. I really don’t believe a medical student wrote this.

          • marshmallow

            yes, and if we consider that abortion is such a hot button issue how is it that a pre-med is getting access to one?

          • L-dan

            hmm, just noted it’s from 2004. Standards might be lax enough to have let someone see one. But the details still don’t sit right at all.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And also the writer assumes that a liberal person would hear about an abortion and think ‘oooh, wow, how edgy and exciting!’ Edgy? I don’t know anyone who’s pro-choice who actually thinks this way.

          • L-dan

            I’ve worked as a simulated patient for first year students. I don’t know of anyplace that would allow pre-med students in to observe. Pre-medical students are generally not taking any actual medical classes without being in some sort of special program.

            Things like ‘crude instrument’ and ‘choked to a halt’ make it all so much more emotional, don’t they? They have to stress at the beginning that they’re very scientific, etc.

            You’re right in that it sounds like what someone imagines would cause a conversion for a pro-choice student. And who knows? It might. Abortions aren’t pretty to look at. We’re primed to see big heads and little limbs and have a visceral reaction. Etc.

            It’s also rather carefully conflating that 24 week fetus mentioned above with a vacuum aspiration procedure that doesn’t happen anywhere near that late. Tiny organs were sucked into the machine, and yet they could still see ribs covered with thin skin and apparently the lower bits were intact enough to tell it was a boy…etc.

            But at the core, it’s still an argument from emotion. An argument that makes no attempt to answer the question of whether a fetus deserves the protections of personhood over the wishes of the pregnant person just because it has an appearance that makes us go “aww”. At core it erases the pregnant person from the equation. Her life doesn’t matter, only the distressing emotional reaction of the tale-teller, who has determined that his (usually) experience is the valid one in the story.

          • marshmallow

            I have seen the 13 week abortion porn. You can’t see the junk. And I seriously doubt he was up close with a bird’s eye view of the situation.

            The fetus is still the size of a couple of dimes, and they are removed in pieces. No junk.

          • Ineedacoffee

            That sounds liek a scene from a movie, Id agree with faked too

          • fiona64

            Definitely faked.

          • colleen2

            I would bet a month’s income that is a totally invented piece of fiction.

          • Ella Warnock

            That’s the craziest (well, one of them, anyway) things. “You’ll be so HAPPY you got to hold your dying baby for a few minutes.” Yeah, sure, let the good times roll, bitches.

          • marshmallow

            Your last line made me LOL irl.

          • Ella Warnock

            I cracked myself and the hubster up, too!

          • marshmallow
          • marshmallow

            Still here on my screen.

          • Ella Warnock

            Okay, now it’s back. But the link you just posted a couple minutes ago is now gone.

          • marshmallow

            I wouldn’t be surprised if this entire chat is deleted because it’s off topic.

            RHRC really needs its own chat room for members. A little bit of a ‘community’ has developed here ever since they switched to Disqus.

            Just refresh and the link should reappear.

          • Ella Warnock

            I’d love a “place” to get together. I’ll give it a few minutes and refresh and see what happens.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            They do!

          • L-dan

            I’m sure some parents do want that sense of closure. And unless there’s an emergency reason not to, I haven’t heard of doctors not respecting those wishes.

            I just can’t understand how they can have so little empathy as to brush off those who don’t want that, who can’t stand the idea of carrying a doomed pregnancy to term.

            It’s still that whole “we know best” shit.

          • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

            See, I can see myself needing closure, but I am NOT going to make someone else do what *I* think is best! I know what is best for myself, not everyone else!

          • Ella Warnock

            I agree; for all I know in that kind of tragic situation I might have wanted that sense of closure.

          • Ella Warnock

            Hey, my comment and your link to The Cars disappeared. Did it vanish for anybody else? You suck, Disqus.

          • marshmallow

            I remember listening to that Cars album in the early 1990s. I discovered The Alan Parsons’ Project around the same time. And the Jaws series of movies/books. At which point I became obsessed with sharks and tried to learn everything I could about them.

            So basically, I thought about sharks while listening to Alan Parsons and the Cars.

            good times!

          • Ella Warnock

            I must be older than you; I remember when it came out in 1978. They were “New Wave” back in the day, and those of us who were all about new wave and the second British invasion were punky geeks! I’ve been listening to a lot of 80′s music lately, including APP. Those were good times!

          • marshmallow

            I am 39:P

            My parents had a huge record collection, and when my dad left I got it all.

            I was also completely obsessed with BAT OUTTA HELL!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Ella Warnock

            You’re but a babe in the woods – lucky you! I used to have a huge record collection. I think a lot of it stayed at my parents’ house all the years we were in the military moving around. There’s really no telling what my mom the “devil music” hater did with them. It’s absolutely criminal; some of what I had is extremely rare now.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I liked Tears for Fears, Pet Shop Boys, Thompson Twins, Men at Work, Toto, Both incarnations of Dexy’s Midnight Runners, Echo and the Bunnymen, The Specials and Madness. Lots and lots of Madness.

          • marshmallow

            i loved the Pet Shop boys and Men at Work.

            Omg, Duran Duran!

            I fucking LOVED ‘rio’ and the music videos back then were so damn creative

          • Ella Warnock

            I’m having a nostalgia attack right now.

          • marshmallow
          • Ella Warnock

            This was in heavy rotation on TBS’s Night Tracks, back in the early 80′s. Those of us hillbillies whose parents didn’t have extended cable and thus MTV pretty much depended on Friday and Saturday nights to catch up with the newest videos.

          • marshmallow

            I remember watching that video when I was a little kid back in 1984. I didn’t understand it..I just knew it was cool.

            At the time I lived out in the country so we had a community dish which we used to pirate all of the American channels:P MTV was one of them.

            And I only re-discovered the song and video a year ago when I heard it at the mall, came home, searched the lyrics and was like holy shit, fave vid from when I was 10 yrs old!

          • Ella Warnock

            These two really caught my attention way back then:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg&list=PLEFE6508C0C19AC3C&index=19

          • marshmallow

            OH yes, I was totes obsessed with the Eurythmics. i wanted to look like Annie Lennox. And I loved the cross dressing!

            Just discovered The Raven:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLUeXkzUjM

            This guy is brilliant.

            You know what though, I never did listen to Queen. The funny thing is, my boyfriend is 27, and he is absolutely obsessed with Queen. And he isn’t into music. But he discovered them a couple of years ago and he adores Freddy Mercury.

          • Ella Warnock

            I didn’t listen to anything but Queen’s more popular stuff, but my husband has always loved all their stuff. I really miss Freddy, though.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I own Queen’s A Kind of Magic, mainly because of Highlander

          • marshmallow

            I listened to ‘another one bites the dust’ and ‘we wlll rock you’ for years without knowing it was Queen.

            Funny how one of the biggest bands of all time just never registered on my radar.

          • Ella Warnock

            I have to admit when I hear “Another one bites the dust” I often just sing Weird Al’s version. Another one rides the bus, yeah!

          • marshmallow

            Ok, now I gotta track down the Weird Al version on youtube.

            I do the same with ‘Amish Paradise’ – it’s better than the original song.

          • Ella Warnock

            It is!

          • marshmallow

            Like A Surgeon was also better than the original

          • Ella Warnock

            And “I’m Fat.”

          • Ella Warnock

            If you’ve never seen him in person, you’re missing a real treat.

          • marshmallow

            I’ve only ever seen Bob Dylan and Bryan Adams in person. Overall I’ve never been too excited about live shows.

            Oh..ZZ top! legs! sharp dressed man!

          • Ella Warnock

            Hubs is much more of a live show guy, but I have to say Al and his band sound just as good live. They’re all very talented, and his voice is actually really good. And I’m from Texas originally so maybe it’s just a regional thing, but I love Asleep at the Wheel live. They just blow you away.

          • Jennifer Starr

            :) They used to play those songs at high school pep rallies

          • Ella Warnock

            Heh, get out of my brain. ;->

          • Jennifer Starr

            Annie Lennox is awesome :)

          • marshmallow

            I’ve been listening to APP all damn day.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Also Stone Roses when I was in college. Loved Stone Roses.

          • Ella Warnock

            John Squire!

          • Jennifer Starr

            He was brilliant–so was Ian Brown–they all were

          • Ella Warnock
          • marshmallow

            omgomgomg ty!!!!

            I remember that but never knew who the hell wrote it

            xoxoxo

          • Ella Warnock

            I actually listen to this one fairly often. It’s just fun to sing along with.

          • marshmallow

            I am having a brain fart right now, but what’s that classic from the 80s where all these people dressed in crappy medieval costumes dance around a flag pole?

            SAFETY DANCE

          • Ella Warnock
          • marshmallow

            yes! that song is so catchy

            imo, this is better than the gaga original:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss_BmTGv43M

            weird al is a genius

          • Ella Warnock

            I hadn’t seen this one before, guess I’m just not keeping up with Gaga like I should. Al really is brilliant.

          • marshmallow

            I just watched ‘Hungry Like a Wolf’ and ‘Safety Dance’

            Those vids were often shot on the fly,with crap equipment. But they were great. So creative. And that is missing from today’s music. I mean, I am sure the creative people are out there – they just get drowned out by Bieber, Beyonce and Miley.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yep, some of the best vids were shot on a shoestring budget. You can get away with that when you have real talent.

          • marshmallow

            I am still chuckling over your joke.

            Take a bow Ella, that was a classic.

          • Ella Warnock

            Aww, thanks. **blushes**

          • Ella Warnock

            Me too. That was back when they really knew how to make actual MUSIC.

          • fiona64

            You and I are clearly of an age …

          • Ella Warnock

            It’s a pretty fine vintage if I do say so myself. ;-)

          • Ineedacoffee

            Im so sorry for you loss. Utterly heartbreaking

            Stories like yours make it even more important these decisions are left only to mother, father and dr NOT a bunch of old men in suits

          • L-dan

            Not my loss, just to clarify. It’s fairly widely publicized one that was published in the run up to yet another of these stupid 20 week bans.

            Not that the sentiment isn’t appreciated. :)

          • marshmallow

            I have zero sympathy for you, baybeekiller!

          • L-dan

            :p

          • Ineedacoffee

            Ahh, Im an aussie so didnt see that story

            Just to say before sam jumps in about me not being American
            I have an interest on how abortion laws are going in the states as our current Prime minister would love to introduce them here and would be wondering how he could secretly bring them in
            If he has his way women would be barefoot and pregnant and thats it
            A well known quote of his,
            ‘to a 14year old rape victim, abortion is the easy way out’

          • marshmallow

            Wow. What an ass.

          • Ineedacoffee

            And he is running our country for the next 3 years at least
            The cuts he has made in last month will set Australia back years in terms of rights, pay equality. He also appointed himself THE MINISTER FOR WOMEN!

          • L-dan

            I’ve been seeing some of that from time to time, along with the issues of inconsistent laws in different parts of the country iirc. But yeaaah, that quote is absolutely sick. Why shouldn’t a rape victim get the easiest possible way through the experience?

            That is someone who should never hold an office. Disgusting.

          • Ineedacoffee

            A little over a week ago gay marriage was legalised in ACT but 2 days ago (after 45 weddings mind you) was overturned on federal level in high court.

            He also has a love of tiny red speedos which he loves to flaunt, that alone is a public health hazard

          • L-dan

            *sigh*

            It’s sad when some seems intent upon giving the U.S. a run for our money in the ‘most backward developed nation’ category. That’s really not a competition anyone in their right mind wants to enter.

          • Ineedacoffee

            He is over the moon to enter it and I think he will get a podium spot the way he goign

          • marshmallow

            I think you are in Canada like me and I believe that Maurice Vellacott is taking one more kick at the can in order to decide whether or not ‘life begins at conception’.

          • L-dan

            No, I’m solidly US. Canada’s health care system tucks them a notch ahead of us on the ladder, in my opinion. Sad to hear that the forced-birthers are getting that solid a shot at screwing up the system you have now.

          • marshmallow

            Everyone thinks that’s you in your story. Better edit it to make it clear it isn’t, or you’ll wake up tomorrow with 20 messages of condolence.

          • L-dan

            heh, yeah, working on it. ^^

          • cjvg

            I am so so sorry this was done to you by people who will never even lose a day of sleep or have a twitch of conscience for what they cost you and your family.

            These politicians and anti-choice groups willfully and negligently practiced medicine without a license and subsequently placed your live at risk.

            Words fail me, I would have so much rage and fury in me if this was me. I hope you can find some way to peace for yourself, not for those who did this they do not deserve forgiveness for their evil.

          • L-dan

            Not me. Though I can’t seem to find a good way to edit and make that clear. I’d have put the link to the story instead, but my posts with links end up in moderation for a day or so.

          • L-dan

            Found the ‘Edit’ Helps to look at the bottom instead of the top of the post.

          • marshmallow

            Yeah, wtf do they put your posts into moderation.

            Last time I had a problem i contacted RHRC on facebook, you might wanna try that to see if you can be taken off the shitlist.

          • cjvg

            I did see that, i’m not sure if she (Danielle Deaver) posts here or even reads articles here, however just in case I felt compelled to reach out even if it is in some small way.

            Many thanks to you for posting her story

          • Ineedacoffee

            You seriously have no clue.
            And hey At least I know Im real, I can see myself unlike god
            You should try engaging a braincell or 2, maybe you may see that what someone else does has no impact on you

            How does any woman having an abortion affect you? along with gay marriage? Affects you how?

            Immoral is thinking you have the right to dictate people and tell them how to live
            No ‘leftie’ will tell you how to live, all we want is equality for ALL men, women, kids, black, white, gay, straight, trans.
            We are ALL human and deserve the same rights. Everything from safe legal access to abortion and all healthcare to the right to marry to the right not to be judged on race

            Your stupid to think there is no need for late term abortions

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am not a leftist. I am an Anarchist. We do not take a seat.

            I am God. Unfortunately, so are you. It is all God.

            Abortion is legal until the time of delivery if the fetus will kill the Mother. You know shitall about abortion/contraception but you want to be in charge.

          • fiona64

            If you actually engaged a brain cell and allowed your thoughts to expand, it would probably blow your brains out.

            Funny … I think the same thing about conservitards whose sole arguments seem to be bumper-sticker sloganeering …

            The state of Texas wanted to limit abortions to 20 weeks gestation.

            No, the anti-choicers there wanted to *eliminate* abortions past 20 weeks. You do know that the majority of fetal anomalies cannot be detected any earlier than 20 weeks … don’t you?

            Don’t you?

            Well, now you do.

          • colleen2

            YOu know, Sam, we all follow the news and we really DO understand WE really do. We understand that the Republican party (and the entire religious right) has become a sort of human cesspool of dysfunctional assholes eager to deflect attention away from their own sexual perversions by demeaning and denigrating women.
            What sort of ‘men’ mandate expensive, painful and unnecessary vaginal probes as punishment for having a medical procedure they disapprove of? What sort of ‘men’ insist that children be born and then provide nothing but social demonization for the mothers of those children.
            My contempt for Republicans, men or women, could not be greater.

          • L-dan

            As pointed out to you, Gosnell was breaking the law. Nobody here was rooting for him. So…your point is?

            I see, so you consider 20 weeks a ‘late term’ abortion, which is not how it is viewed medically. You realize that outlawing abortions at this stage means endangering the lives of pregnant people when, for example, they suffer from premature rupture of membranes? That it cruelly requires them to carry doomed pregnancies to term?

            Yes, abortions happen between 20 and 24 weeks that are for reasons other than fetal abnormality or endangerment. Almost all of those (and they are still a very small percentage) happen due to lack of access to earlier abortion or to proper healthcare, something else Wendy Davis was trying to fight for and which the laws that have gone into place have only exacerbated.

            So far you haven’t made a single convincing point as to why we should think abortions are not necessary. Or…do you have some other point to make here?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Gosnell did not do late term abortions. He did not have the surgical skill to do so, although he was a licensed physician. He induced labor and then killed the infant born alive and breathing and crying. That is not abortion. That is murder.

            Keep your murderporn fantasies to yourself, you swine. You know shitall about this as a public health issue. You are just into gore and shaming women.

          • marshmallow

            I checked his chat history.

            He really hates ‘the gays’, and is sure that ‘the gays’ are responsible for all of the evil and immorality in the world.

          • Ella Warnock

            The fan in my heat pump went out this morning. Sigh. Those fucking gays again.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? I guess my gay friends are the reason I had to have work done on the plumbing.

          • marshmallow

            I didn’t get the joke at first but hahahaah

          • fiona64

            It wasn’t technically a joke … but I can see how it could be. (We had a catastrophic plumbing problem recently that cost us a pretty penny. that’s what comes of living in an older home.)

          • fiona64

            You know, the loudest homophobes are invariably closet cases. There are even controlled studies that verify it. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gay-and-lesbian-well-being/201307/are-homophobes-really-gay

          • marshmallow

            I believe it. Bocephus can’t go 5 minutes without bringing up the gays.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Why does this anus think no one here is gay, or has gay family and/or friends. Gay folks have biological children. Gay women have abortions. He thought he could walk in here and just trash people?What reeking pile of shit Sam is.

          • fiona64

            No, dummy. That was not what he was put in jail for. You might want to check your facts before you make yourself look even more stupid. Gosnell was jailed for murder, not for performing late-term abortions — and no, the terms are not synonymous, except in the masturbatory fantasies of the anti-choice.

        • L-dan

          Abortions that are considered late term by medical standards are a tiny percentage of abortions. Those after 24 weeks are invariably due to fetal abnormalities and maternal health.

          Even if I thought that it was wrong to have an abortion after some number of weeks (I don’t), I don’t believe it’s moral to make the situation *more* difficult for people in those sorts of situations. So yes. it should be legal everywhere and nosy busybodies should stay out of such deeply personal business.

        • fiona64

          If you know of anyone who is killing babies, please contact local law enforcement at once.

    • JamieHaman

      “We can live without any other abortions.” “We” is men. Who can live quite nicely without ever having any abortion.
      When “WE” is women this is NOT the case.

    • fiona64

      Very convenient to be an anti-choice male, isn’t it, Sam? After all, you will never have to risk life and limb in the name of gestation (wanted or otherwise), so you can just wave your silly paw and pronounce what “we” can live without.

      You all make me laugh.

      • Sam

        How do you know I am a male? Never just assume that the other person has no clue. I have been on both sides of the issue. After a long time, I realized that aborting our babies isn’t really “good” for us in the long run. Yes, the crime rate went down 50%. I read that book. On the other hand, there isn’t enough young people to support Social Security and Medicare because congress spent what the elders invested. The other thing is the American birth rate is down and that is making us unbalanced with Europe. No room to go into that. Don’t you see? Immorality bites us in the rear end. Without changing any laws, wouldn’t it be better to promote life? Teach our kids to wait for marriage isn’t a bad idea after all. All this “free love” isn’t really free. There’s emotional, financial and physical cost, too.

        • marshmallow

          On the other hand, there isn’t enough young people to support Social Security and Medicare because congress spent what the elders invested.

          Get this through your head – it is immoral to create people just to exploit them you asshole.

          The other thing is the American birth rate is down and that is making us unbalanced with Europe

          So? Immigrants. Unless you hate brown people. Do you hate brown people Sam?

          • Sam

            Who said anything about making people to exploit them? You are making things up. Typical brain dead liberal. Think a little bit deeper about the consequences of our actions or do you ever bother to think about what you do?

          • marshmallow

            You want more white people to be born in order to:

            1) pay for your social security and medicare

            2) prevent those ‘dirty’ brown immigrants from coming to the USA

            That is exploitation, fuckface.

          • Sam

            Obviously, your thinking just isn’t that deep and neither is your soul.

          • marshmallow

            So you admit that you don’t have an answer and that you are a racist, homophobic, bigotted piece of shit who wants more babies to be born so they can work to support him in his old age. Jesus would be disgusted by you.

          • Sam

            Now you bring in race. I never even mentioned race. It is YOU who is racist. Now take your intimidation and go bully someone else.

          • marshmallow

            I’m not the one who said we need more white babies because the USA is being overrun by non-whites.

          • goatini

            Oh please, you specifically came here to try and bully women (and the men who support their equality) with your false blame, shame and guilt that you think ALL women should be verbally and emotionally abused with.

            Bullies always project their shortcomings on the innocent opposition.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, actually, you did. “We’re down people compared to Europe.”

            Which is dog-whistle speak for “Hurry up and make more babies, white folks; the dark folks are outbreeding us.”

            Your kind has been seen here repeatedly, Bocephus; ain’t nuthin’ new (to use words you would understand …).

          • marshmallow

            Sam


            2 hours ago

            I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it for myself.
            This is what the homosexuals are bringing to society. They spread
            disease and they are extremely nasty.

            —————-

            Not very deep, and kinda hateful and bigotted.

          • fiona64

            You did, dumbass. You are the one insisting that we need to breed more in order to pay into Social Security.

            If your Saint Dubya hadn’t raided the SSA coffers to pay for his two illegal wars, we wouldn’t be in this state.

            Think a little deeper about the consequences of our actions

            How about if you short-signted, misogynistic conservatives take that piece of advice to heart for a change?

        • Jennifer Starr

          I don’t know of many women who call themselves Bocephus. Hank Williams Jr Fan? Yeah, I’d be embarrassed too.

          • marshmallow

            Yeah, I noticed that too.

            He worships Hillbilly God. Worship Jesus or I’ll cut you!

            http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6551501159_94b8bfa966_z.jpg

          • fiona64

            Yeah, and he’s idiot enough to believe that a Middle Eastern rabbi would be Caucasian to boot (I’ve been having a great laugh while reading his comment history) … since “Jews today are a white race.”

            How he fails to find this kind of stupidity embarrassing is beyond me.

        • fiona64

          You’re male, all right.

          The other thing is the American birth rate is down and that is making us unbalanced with Europe.

          Citation needed. As usual.

          • Sam

            All I was trying to point out in the first place was that there are consequences for our actions. That doesn’t mean that I would ever get into someones personal decision about abortion. The “free love” that started in the 60′s has not created more freedom, just more problems. Listen to Avi Lipking on You Tube sometime. He talks about our dwindling birth rate. It’s also been on the news. People just don’t have money for children plus we are aborting our children. I am not a moron, either, I hold a Bachelor of Science degree in nursing and have worked in hospitals many years. I do a lot of reading. I used to be very pro-choice but over the years, as I learned more and more, I decided that pushing abortion does not cure our social problems. In fact, they have gotten worse.

          • marshmallow

            Having sex for recreation is not a crime. Get that through your thick skull.

            Furthermore, you’re a fucking idiot if you think that the birth rate and growth must be *infinite*. The earth cannot support an infinite number of people, the resources needed just don’t exist.

          • Sam

            You are the idiot. You keep putting words into my mouth that I did not say. How can growth be “infinite” if there are people dying at the same time people are being born? YOU are the one who assumed that. Once again, you assume. That’s ass of u and me.

          • marshmallow

            You believe that the birth rate must always exceed the death rate so that your social security can be paid for by future generations.

            And that this must never end. That would be ‘infinite’ growth you twit.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not understand arithmetic any better than you understand sex. But you want to be in charge and give advice. You skeeve me.

          • fiona64

            So, you *can’t* cite a source for your assertions.

            I thought not.

            I am not a moron, either,

            Suffice it to say that I think that the evidence you’ve put before us shows otherwise. David Barton a “foremost expert” on the US Constitution? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

          • Sam

            asswipe.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Aww…Such lovely Christian language :-)

          • fiona64

            Ah, there’s just the sort of “good Christian” values I’ve come to expect from an anti-choice male.

            What was it you said? Oh, yes. “Do you eat with the same mouth you use to speak?”

            Hypocritical swine.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Free love? Nobody ever had sex with you for free, LoveyBug. I bet folks run when they see you coming. You suffer from the disease of envy. Too bad it is not fatal.

          • Sam

            You are evil and going to hell if you don’t change your ways.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Getting a mite hysterical there, Bobo.

          • marshmallow

            Suck it.

            (actually, I bet you do, that explains the homophobia)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am a retired Christian minister. Only God can judge my soul. You commit blasphemy when you consign me to Hell. Blasphemy is a sin.

          • Sam

            You saying it’s too bad I don’t die and then you have the nerve to say I committed blasphemy. You are no minister.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You certainly did commit blasphemy. And I am a retired minister. And I often think it is too bad real sin is not deadly to the sinner.

          • Sam

            I am not sexually dysfunctional and I don’t know where you got that. You are making things up. I would think that a minister would agree with the morality of the Bible. If you are a minister then you will know the answer to this question:
            Why did God give us the Ten Commandments and the Bible?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I got you are sexually dysfunctional from your posts. You are testing me? KMA.

          • Sam

            You need help. You don’t make any sense. Something is wrong with you. Please go away.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Oh no, Sam. As long as you are here, I am going to make you my pet. I am going to be on you like white on rice.

          • Sam

            Just don’t go schizoid on me.

          • marshmallow

            That was ableist Sam. So let’s add that you hate women, gays, and now people who are suffering from disabilities.

            You’re a real piece of shit.

          • Sam

            Not the trash mouth again.

          • marshmallow

            Sam wrote:”Gays perform the most vile acts, yet, they claim to be offended by someone else’s opinion of their behavior. It’s absurd. We cannot elevate sin to the level of righteousness.”

            The only one with a dirty mouth is you, cupcake. Your bigotry is disgusting and offensive.

          • Sam

            YOU are the disgusting and offensive one. You are foul mouthed and you are a bully. It’s not bigot if its the truth.

          • marshmallow

            Gays are not vile and evil. That they are is *your* opinion, *not* fact. Idiot.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are here calling nice smart women baby killers and murderers. What did you expect, you Swine? Cupcakes?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Schizoid? Do you know where you are, Turd? I think you might be senile as well as sexually bent. You come off like an addlepated 70 year old Catholic sheep. Nothing about you is attractive.

            You have come here from god only knows where, to tell a bunch of smart kind women that they are baby killers. You have the choice here to try to understand what women are saying OR shame, blame and preach. You CHOSE to be an asshole and try to shame, blame and preach. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

          • marshmallow

            No, you’re the one with the mental health issues Sam.

            Plum isn’t a bigot who is obsessed with abortion and homosexuals.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I make perfect sense. You have the intelligence of a box of gohmerts.

          • cvxxx

            The birth rate argument is a red herring. Free abortion on demand and free birth control for both sexes is the cure. Yes, people can have a sex life. The best thing about low birth rate is showing the reason pyramid schemes are illegal. But the upside is closer to full employment.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Married women get abortions. You know nothing at all about abortion/contraception as a public health issue. Nothing. But you want to be in charge of my sexual life? What hubris.

        • cvxxx

          We do not need young people to support Social Security Eliminating the cap would do that.
          low birth rate plus very low immigration and no refugees solves that problem as there will be more jobs available.
          Immorality? Please there is promoting ignorance about sexuality. Waiting to marry for what? Assuming that everybody is the same? That he or she is on the same play page? Never knowing what good sex is so there is no way to compare. Not having effective birth control is more of a problem.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      The MAP is not an abortifacient. Where did you learn it was? You can live without any abortions. You are male. Women cannot. Do not quit your day job. You will never make an obstetrician or gynecologist.
      https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief-womens-rights/aclu-sues-bishops-behalf-pregnant-woman-denied-care-catholic-hospital

      • Sam

        We CAN live without killing our babies. It’s called “sanctity of life”. I used to be pro choice but it seems that “choice” has led to a very slippery slope where late term babies get aborted and now some idiot is saying that we should have 30 days after the baby is born to decide if we want to kill it or keep. It’s like the gates of hell open when we go down these slopes.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You probably should not have an abortion.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You are killing babies? Stop that. It is a crime.

  • RitaJoseph

    Once again, a whole article on abortion without one mention of the tiny human beings targeted by elective abortion for extermination.

    • cjvg

      A woman is a human being, a fetus before 26 weeks does not have the brain structure to exhibit awareness or consciousness, and as such is NOT a human being like the woman is.

      I certainly hope that you were not trying to equate fertilized eggs or zygotes in your attempt to insinuate that these were human beings just like a woman is.

      If that is your contention then there is no use in educating you, you are to divorced from reality to be able to grasp the clear and irrefutable evidence that women are most certainly human beings and as such should never be relegated to the status of irrelevant incubators of potentials

    • marshmallow

      Make a good case as to why we should consider an insensate clump of cells to be a human being.

    • HeilMary1

      Perhaps there is divorce-causing obstetric incontinence in your future! Saint Karma loves turning tables on you pompous fetal idolaters.

    • Ineedacoffee

      Once again, the anti choicer thinks a bunch of cells should have more rights than a living, breathing human
      If YOU dont want an abortion, YOU dont have one.
      What others do is NONE of you business

    • Ella Warnock

      Once again an anti-choicer attempting to completely erase women from the equation. Once again an anti-choicer proposing the notion that she knows what’s better for other women’s lives than they do. Once again the breathtaking arrogance of the “pro-lifer” rears its ugly head.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      There is no “tiny human being” untill I make it out of my flesh, blood and pain. Given that abortion is 14 times safer than gestating to term, I will decide when and if I gestate any fertilized ova to term. YOU will not decide that. The State will not decide that.

      • goatini

        “She’s” one of those nitwits that still believes in the homunculus.

        • marshmallow

          Many of them do. They just don’t state it that way.

          They say ‘but science says the zygote is a human life!!!’

          Which is another way of saying that every zygote has a soul.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Cheerfully punch it right in the mouth if it said that to me in real life.

    • http://littlemisshaldol.tumblr.com/ LittleMissMellaril

      Like you care when they get older, all you do is criticize! I’m sorry, but most anti-choice people want to take away food stamps, welfare, and healthcare for the poor. That is why I do not take any of you seriously!

      Then you say the parents should go get jobs when there are VERY FEW jobs out there! There is NO mercy! You Crisis Pregnancy Centers (CPCs) often force religion onto women in order for them to get resources.

      Oh, and then birth control, which BTW, is used for heavy and painful periods also, not just for pregnacy prevention! Oh, almost forgot, it is also used for ovary cysts. So, you want women to suffer becuase you want to have you little wins? Yeah, sounds very “pro-life” to me!

      If ya don’t like what we’re saying, stay off of here!

      PS: Grew up in a Pro-Life church, yeah, you should have heard about how the Pastor talked about women! That’s why I left!

    • fiona64

      Once again, an anti-choice post that erases the only person involved from the picture. Why do you hate women, Rita?

  • cjvg

    At this point I believe the only definitive option would be to instigate a law suit that demands that states and federal regulations that block abortion and other reproductive rights prove why the right to continued in uteri development of a potential and unrealized human being should supersede the rights of a fully aware, fully realized, conscious and present woman to own her own bodily development and health