Did You Just Call Me a Nazi?


Jill Stanek whipped out a dictionary to argue about whether or not Holocaust references are appropriate when talking about abortion, after anti-choice celebrities Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar did just that.

Consider this phrase again from Jim Bob’s speech at this year’s Values Voter Summit that Stanek is defending, as he relayed an anecdote about a visit to a concentration camp: “That’s where we’re at in our nation.”

It shouldn’t have to be said, but the Holocaust was not a natural disaster; it was a premeditated war crime. The people who carried out this world-traumatizing genocide were known as Nazis, and they were justly tried at the behest of the world community at Nuremberg for crimes against humanity.

While it’s only implied in their passive-voice arguments that hesitate to name a perpetrator, you can’t have a calculated mass murder without the calculating mass murderers. So who are the people engineering what anti-choice thought leaders describe as a Nazi-style mass murder happening now in the United States?

In a country where about one in three women has had an abortion, and a significant portion of the rest of the country agrees that they should have had the right to terminate a pregnancy, I think I can guess who they mean. From the original version of an abortion ban proposed in Bakersfield, California, with its colorful description of women’s health clinics as “local abortion chambers,” I have an idea of what they think of women’s reproductive health professionals.

In sum, I think Jill Stanek just called me a Nazi. And she called you one, too, if you believe a pregnant person has the right to decide the outcome of her pregnancy, or if you are among the roughly one in three women who has exercised her constitutionally protected right to have an abortion. If she means what she says, we’re all deserving of a Nuremberg trial.

This is the kind of extremism we’re dealing with: people who think they’re living in a nation packed to the gills with modern-day Nazis and their supporters.

Either that, or she doesn’t literally believe what she’s saying. If that’s the case, she should pull back from insisting that it’s right to compare the United States of America and, by implication, the majority of its citizens, to Nazi Germany, the Nazi Party, the SS, or Nazi sympathizers. That’s a heavy claim to make just to score political points.

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  • painkills2

    Using those kinds of inflammatory terms just makes them look bad (and unintelligent). And anyone who believes that crap would hear the anti-choice siren whether the word was included or not. People who hurl insults and call people names are not interested in discussion, fairness, or using language correctly.

    And honestly, I don’t care what names this person calls me. Should I?

    • CJ99

      Those who do so do it knowingly in attempt to manipulate others. As others have stated the fanatics can’t argue facts as they posess none, therefore they resort to extremes that play on emotions, almost universally negative emotions.

      • painkills2

        Are they fanatics? Or just paid to look like fanatics? Or just profiting off their fanatic status?

        • dance commander

          I was reading an article in salon about a new documentary (sorry, can’t remember the title) that charts the rise/ambitions of 3 young, white, male Republican politicians.

          They are all anti-choice. By default. The funny thing is, not one of these guys felt strongly about abortion. They just chose to be anti-choice because that’s how you get votes. PURE pragmatism.

          • CJ99

            Which is the scariest kind of politician, those who will say & do ANYTHING to gain & keep power in their own hands.

        • CJ99

          Brings to mind televangelists many of whom are convinced of their own illegitimate fantasies about life. though I don’ t disagree. Many are that fanatical by design even if they are paid. Few would fall away if the money dried up.

          • painkills2

            I’m gonna disagree with you there. If there was no money in it for the televangelists especially, then a majority would flee the business. Telling other people how to live and what to think is profitable and if religion wasn’t a money maker, then these kinds of people would just sell snake oil door-to-door (or travel internationally Mitt-Romney-style).
            I wonder how the Dali Lama gets paid? Do his followers just send him money too?

          • CJ99

            I hope you can bear with me cause this could be a long one. First off its not all about the money, though that is a huge factor, I put it in the top 3. The other 2 being power & ego, both of which are huge. Those who wish to control others as we see in the whole contraception thing do have some big control issues. As do televangelists (who often run their mouths on contraception / abortion). No really give it a bit of thought, while the money is a big thing no doubt, power is an equally big part of it. How often do they say things in such a way as to imply “do what I say cause its what god wants! disobey and you’ll go to hell / become a blasphemer / heretic / commit sacrilige yack yack yack” from the ones I’ve encountered that’s a near constant theme. Ego is the cojoined twin of lust for power, even if we just consider those controlling greedy people hate to be proven wrong (as happens routinely). I’m likely not the only person who’s noticed how they lust after being the center of attention, having all eyes & ears on themselves. Religion is often used by such people as it so easily fits their totalitarian desires, for they proclaim themselves to be the sole voice of God, to disobey them is to disobey god according to their silly fantasies. Note to painkills2: I’m not discounting the greed factor its definately a huge problem but not the only part of this story.

            As for the Dalai Lama, I’m less familiar with him not having grown up in that part of the world or surrounded by those who follow that same religion. Not commenting on the belief system other than I suspect not all of it may be true (not calling it any more or less than any other organized religion). How he has access to money / rescources I’m not fully aware but I’ll just say from what I’ve seen he doesn’t appear to have the huge glass cathedral of Robert Schuller, the massive wealth exhibited by the likes of John Hagee or Pat Robertson. Nor have I heard of scandals on the same scale with televangelists I’ve heard of in this “western world” I live in. He could very well get things wrong and have faults but I can’t say what they would be I just don’t know as much in that area.

            This last part of my thoughts may surprise some people but while I’m not attracted to any sort of organized religion especially those in north american culture which I know do exhibit many undesireable qualities (like what I’ve commented on alot here on this site) I’m not against the creator I just can’t swallow that idea that the religions we have on this earth now (or in the past 3 millenia or so) represent Him in anything close to a realistic way. Oh btw I’m not discounting the creator being a She, not having had a face to face encounter I just don’t know. What I do know is that god isn’t the petty vindictive hate filled monster religion describes him as. It’s just not sensible to create complex life like what we see here on this world then endlessly torment the creations (meaning all of us) with the painful things people do to each other. People doing evil manipulative greedy things in whatever way isn’t Godly its exactly the complete opposite.

            Well I’m done for the moment, its late at night and I’ve run on at the keyboard for quite a bit in this 1 comment but I had to say it even if just for myself but I hope it makes sense to others who’ve read this far.

          • painkills2

            I guess when I think about greed, and those in service of it, the ego and power-trip parts of it always go hand-in-hand. But you’re right to point out that money isn’t always everything to these kinds of people, the lust for power and importance can be just as strong as the need for money. It’s just that when they start raking in all that cash, I think the money begins to be more important.

            I don’t have anything against the Dali Lama, I was just wondering how he pays for things, like food, clothing, a roof over his head, electricity, doctor bills, and airfare. I mean, does he get a paycheck? Just wondering how the guy actually survives if he doesn’t have a job. Maybe Tibet has Social Security?

            What is destructive about religion (well, one thing) is that it pretends to give you answers to all of life’s questions. Religious belief pretends to know all the reasons for why life is the way it is, and all of those reasons are rooted in a text based on myths. If you can imagine what it must have been like for people back then, not understanding that the Earth was round or that an eclipse wasn’t magic. They didn’t understand reproduction (i.e. virgin birth) and they didn’t understand basic chemistry. People in those times came up with reasons for things they didn’t understand, creating goddesses and gods and stories and myths.

            If there is a god, then she understands human frailties, lust and greed, but also disease and poverty. We don’t have to wonder or worry if this god is benevolent or not, because in the end, our lives are all about how we treated others, not about the mistakes we made or the temptations we succumbed to. Religion makes life all about its own idea of right and wrong, completely disregarding the fact that in order to learn, we HAVE to make mistakes and do things wrong. It’s part of the process of learning and should not be demonized or shamed.

            Anyway, that’s my two cents…

          • colleen

            I wouldn’t choose the Dalhi Lama as an example of proselytizing religion. He (and indeed, Buddhism) do not claim to “know all the reasons for why life is the way it is” and never has. Nor do Buddhists proselytize.

          • painkills2

            See paragraph #2 in my response above. I don’t pretend to know anything about Buddhism, or how they spread their message. Do Buddhists believe in a god?

          • colleen

            not a god in the sense that the Abrahamic religions believe in God. although there ARE Buddhist Christians etc. Two of the best authors on comparative religion, IMHO, are Karen Armstrong and Joseph Campbell.

          • painkills2

            Buddhist Christians? Interesting. Thanks for the authors.

          • CJ99

            What little I’ve heard of Buddhism is that 1 thing they do believe is reincarnation so that a person can learn through several lifetimes which is where Karma comes in, that is what a person experiences in a lifetime is affected by how they acted and what the learned previously. In a way its a good idea. Can you imagine if that really happened to some of these theocrats who restrict others came back as a woman victimized by their own abuses?

          • painkills2

            It would be nice if people could go through this process within the space of one lifetime. Cuz I think that’s all we got.

          • CJ99

            I often ponder the fact that what any organized religion has become watered down or polluted over the centuries so that what might have started out as coming from the creator (as I call him / her, not sure which applies best) is nearly impossible to distinguish certainty. Whats been added & changed by abusive power hungry people has become very dangerous to humanity far beyond the issues of contraception & abortion.

          • painkills2

            If you look at the history of the bible, you can see there is no way that after so many translations it would be possible to determine any kind of real meaning in the words. The interpretation of the words depends on which branch of the religion you follow. Meanings are twisted to suit different ends. If I wanted to learn about the poor or how we are supposed to treat our fellow human beings, I would definitely not turn to the bible. There’s some freaky stuff in there. :-)

          • CJ99

            I agree but go even further, I have no doubt large parts of the bible have been rewritten to suit those with ulterior motives. One example that springs to mind is that of Abraham (I think) who god ordered him to sacrifice his son and later a deer showed up right before he comitted the act. I have no doubt it was NOT god who ordered that sacrifice. Another is that of a travelling preacher of the times who came upon a village where some young children teased him calling him names (baldyhead etc) who were promptly torn apart by a bear sent by god. Those actions are not those of a loving deity. It’s probably just me saying this but those are the actions of a violent arrogant psychopath not a creator. With such passages adopted by so many as unquestioned truth (even though its clear they’re not the list bit true) its little wonder so many hateful things are done in the name of religion even into the present.

          • painkills2

            It doesn’t make sense to me that you can praise a god for the good things, but when things go wrong, then what? Oh, your faith is being tested. Or perhaps you’re a sinner and you deserve it. Maybe god was just angry and petty that day, who knows? Why do religions think they have the inside track on what is good and what is evil, what is considered a sin and what is not? They can decide that for their own congregation, but not for anyone outside of it.

            And, really, is there a religion that worships a female god? It is so telling that religion always puts the male figure on a pedestal, still symptoms of where and when religions originated. I don’t think it’s right to worship ANYTHING, but if I have to pray to someone, you can bet it is going to be a female. :D

          • CJ99

            Thing is, & this is probably just me, but I don’t think jesus ever really asked to be worshipped. I think worship is a very wrong headed idea about relating to the creator.

          • CJ99

            The problems with depections of god in what are called “holy books” (I’m not singling out the bible here) are several and probably there’s things I’ve missed. One being the contradictory descriptions in each book god being benevolent while simultaneously hateful & vindictive, creating a perfect world with humans in his image yet powerless to stop it being corrupted. Adam & eve having 2 sons as the preginitors of the human race which is clearly impossible (2 sons nobody to give birth to the next generation, also no genetic diversity), noahs ark is another story with a whole host of holes in it, genetic diversity again (2 of each animal 8 people all related), lack of food & fresh water for the arks inhabitants, no way of preventing predatory animals from eating the rest. no way to dispose of waste, no way to get certain animals on the ark since they’re in vastly different parts of the world (where would you find a platypus or polar bear in the mideast). This leads those who foolilshly believe these stories as “literal truth” to all kinds of ridiculous mental gymnastics to explain away the glaring holes (an impossible task). Using these “holy books” as history is laughable and as rulebooks on how to live their beyond highly dubious. I can’t even begin to go into how much they’ve been altered due to improper translations or deliberate changes made out of ulterior motives. Religions we’ve got in the world now are just untenable, as much as greek or egyptian mythology. theres even some common factors to those mythologies to what we see now, that being putting human motivations & actions on god when in reality I can’t say that anyone on this earth today has full knowledge of who he is or what’s on his mind. One thing that I have realized is that things that make us human, ability to think for ourselves, many of our motivations, even emotions have a reason for being that way. Denying those things can (and has already) caused problems. I should note I am not proposing a lawless civilisation here, people must still respect each other and treat each other fairly, something that religion has ultimately failed at.

            my apologies for the fiendishly long comment but I’m not always great at making what I think tweet sized.

          • painkills2

            Twitter is for people who strive really hard to be clever in 140 characters or less. Doesn’t include me either.

            Science was but a baby when these books were created, and just like myths, they include stories that try to explain, what was to them, the unexplainable. Can’t really fault them for that, but you can fault anyone today who still believes what people believed back then.

            Yet here we are, and science has grown up, and some still don’t believe. Perhaps if science is a movement, and movements take time, in the course of things it may take longer to rid ourselves of our spiritual crutches.

            I don’t like to think that, after I die, I’m going to meet some authoritarian male god who wants to talk about all my sins. It’s just creepy. Nor do I want my own planet when I die, like Mormons do. Anyway, it can be interesting to contemplate, but it’s all just imagination.

            The only thing you can say about religion today is that it is not ALL bad. Religion used to be about community, about people helping each other, and there are still places where that happens. I’ve read that a lot of people didn’t think John F. Kennedy could become president because he was Catholic, which seems a little silly today. There are people of all faiths and persuasions in government, and more power to them. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of money backing Catholic and Mormon religions (and others I’m guessing), and not just the so-called faithful. I understand that everything is political, but this is just ridiculous. I mean, we’re talking about really, really important stuff here, the climate, reproductive health, inequality. If you can’t back up your belief (whatever it may be) with proof, I just don’t have the time or patience. Jeez, I’m getting older by the second.

          • CJ99

            yeah thats something I rarely talk about but I see huge amounts of money & resources wasted on religious monuments. Huge stadium sized megachurches. Much of the vatican itself along with some of those oversized european churches (not all catholic either) I just can’t swallow it when I see such enormous waste when so many in the world are homeless hungry & going without decent medical aid. that’s not even mentioning the insult that televangelists heap on the rest of the world with their outrageous wealth, most of them are worse than Imelda Marcos (remember her?)

          • painkills2

            Did you see Bill Maher’s Religilous? Film of those Mormon churches (just as big as Catholic cathedrals, just mostly in Utah, I think) was eye-opening for me. I don’t understand how any religion can justify that, especially when idolatry (originally) was so scorned. Who are these structures monuments to? Do people who believe in a god really need such… ostentatiousness? (Been a long time since I used THAT word.)

            Ah, Imelda Marcos, the shoe queen. Just to let you know, women everywhere would probably buy just as many shoes as she did, if they had the funds to do so. :)

          • CJ99

            Now that I think of it there were some religions in our ancient times that had multiple gods some being female notably Isis (egyptian), Athena (greek) are just 2 examples among many.

          • painkills2

            Hey CJ, so we have to go back to ancient times? And really, those are just one of many gods, most of them male, if I remember correctly. Those religions were hierarchal, weren’t they? Let’s see, the head of the Greek gods was Zeus, and I guess I’m not that familiar with Egyptian gods.

            I was reading today about some Fox personality saying that the Christian religion did not incorporate any traditions from other religions… yeah, right. Then Jon Stewart did a thing about it. It’s like Christians no nothing about the history of any religion, let alone their own.

          • painkills2

            I tried to post an article from The Onion, but it says my comment is being moderated… Let me know if you get the two responses I made to you, which include the link, thanks.

          • CJ99

            Thats similar to my thinking about it. 1 thing I’ve said before is love including the physical side of sex isn’t about “evil temptation” human beings have those needs for a reason and it goes far beyond having kids. Those who’ve done the research have said that it also reinforces the bonds between 2 people, the closeness & feelings like that.

          • painkills2

            Well, I think you can be intimate with another person without including the sex part of it, but you are right, sex is about intimacy and not reproduction. Us humans have evolved to the point where reproduction is not the sole purpose of our lives. Too many people on the planet as it is. It is just no longer economically feasible to have lots and lots of kids — unless you’re Mitt Romney, of course.

          • CJ99

            Large numbers of children were an advantage in early history since many would not live a full life due to many environmental hazards. Such is not the case now with our intelligence & ability to use (& create) tools. Humanity has outgrown the biological limitations. It’s much easier to survive to adulthood. We don’t need dozens of children to ensure survival of the next generation. Yet we still have emotional & physical needs. It’s the height of stupidity to not use our abilities to ensure we don’t overpopulate the world beyond what people (and other life on this planet) can sustain.

            Nor should we deny our own humanity, we are not the machines we create to be ordered about used & discarded. Life has no worth if it is not truly lived. Theres the crux of it all. those who describe themselves as “pro life” are liars, they don’t want to protect life, they want to control & manipulate how everyone lives to the point were we’d all stop living but simply exist as biological machines.

            They also use God as their big stick to instill terror in all who don’t buy into their idiotic dogma. If you follow their own assertions that god made is in gods own image and god designed humans with a purpose. Then why are we givin ability to think? why do we have emotional & physical needs? by their own illogic god either failed in creating us in such a way or he’s an evil tormentor who dangles carrots in front of us yet expects us to starve. I myself do not think of god as an evil tormentor but those who misuse him for their own ends very much are that.

          • painkills2

            Without hell there is no heaven. :)

          • CJ99

            The more of it I see the more I realize the world so many of us live in is Hell. Perhaps that should be the Repuglicans new motto: “On earth as it is in hell”

          • painkills2

            Great turn of phrase :)
            It’s true that the more one learns about the world, the more injustice one sees. However… you must also look at those little buds of progress sprouting up all over, look around at both the beauty of nature and the coolness of technology, and see that the world (as always) has been full of conflict and negativity — so it is important to forcefully infuse our world with the positive. (I’m beginning to feel like Deepak Chopra, here.)

          • CJ99

            yeah the need to help make the world better is a big one for sure and worthy of doing by all of us. but I have a hard time from my own history. I’ve seen evil up close calling itself godly, it’s not so easy. I do agree modern inventiveness does have many advantages & some of it is cool (I’m from an electronics engineering background so I’ve seen some of it up close). what depresses me is those who not only don’t care about the injustice but actively participate in it to benefit themselves at the expense of the rest of humanity (indeed all life on this planet) then claim its their “god given right”. that’s what makes me feel the part of grumpy old bear in a GRRRR mood.

          • Arekushieru

            “Yet we still have emotional & physical needs. It’s the height of
            stupidity to not use our abilities to ensure we don’t overpopulate the
            world beyond what people (and other life on this planet) can sustain.”

            Yup, and I’m a great example. I’m asexual, but my bonds with my family and friends are still those of love and sustenance (physical and emotional).

          • CJ99

            Yeah and nobody forced that decision on you either. Just as nobody has the right to stop me from persuing a relationship and neither of us is the lesser because of it.

  • Arekushieru

    Let alone the FACT that it’s not possible for Pro-CHOICE to be Nazis. It is VERY possible for Pro-Life to be compared with the anti-choice activism of Hitler and his followers, however.

    • HeilMary1

      Many books on that era prove RCC officials actively supported the Nazis because of their shared militant anti-gay and -safe motherhood agendas. Future Paul VI, when acting as Pius XII’s undersecretary for refugees, deliberately funded the Croatian Nazi Ustasha (Catholic Action) death camps that exterminated 1 million Serb non-Catholic Christians.

  • LisaC

    If she means what she says, we’re all deserving of a Nuremberg trial.

    Not all, no. Women fall into one of two categories in this system: Nazis/Nazi sympathizers, and victims. Most women are considered victims. Interestingly, most Jewish people count as Nazis. There is a lot of bemoaning the willful ignorance of the Jews from that corner of the anti-choice movement. (In general, not just specifically on that blog, and of course it’s usually more explicit in the com boxes.)

  • dance commander

    If they truly thought that abortion was genocide they’d be doing a lot more than picketing and writing their local congressmen.

    Even Hitler had to keep the death camps a fucking SECRET from the German people because he knew that as indifferent as people were to the plight of the Jews, that most *reasonable* people, even if racist as all fuck, will stop short of mass fucking murder.

    • painkills2

      On Veteran’s Day, an anti-choice activist interrupted the governor during a speech to veterans here in New Mexico. Fortunately, a handful of veterans stepped out of the crowd and ushered the man out, while he was screaming about abortion being murder. Even the conservative governor (Republican posing as a Democrat) said that it was neither the time or place. Voting on November 19th against the 20-week abortion ban in Albuquerque, please vote.

      • Ella Warnock

        The naked narcissism of the anti-choicer.

      • CJ99

        The only thing that springs to mind is “insane in the membrain” describing that anti-lifer (as I call them).

  • MaiaDoe

    “In Nazi Germany, the penalties for abortion were increased again. In 1943, providing an abortion to an “Aryan” woman became a capital offense.”

    I don’t know, do you know any pro-choice person who thinks that providing abortion should be punished by death penalty?

  • CJ99

    Thats the very problem with those I call the religious wrong in north america. They make concerted efforts to enforce their ideal of a totalitarian state and yet call those who resist
    “Nazi”, “Communist” or other hot button accusations. Though few of them public admit its still in the public eye that many of this small group are striving to create a Theocracy yet those who stand up and say no are somehow fascist. Revolting as (insert your fave george carlin word here).

  • margaretdblough

    They don’t look at us as criminals. They look at us as idiots who have to be saved from ourselves.

  • CJ99

    I don’t think of myself as either a god or prophet though, I don’t want to be. What the fundamentalist lunatics don’t understand is I acutally like god. but I despise what those who call themselves his prophets are doing in the present. I’m just a completely average human who want’s to live unmolested. I have needs to belong somewhere with someone, be needed & live comfortably (but not idiotically wealthy), I don’t need or want to be in a position of dominance.

    • painkills2

      “Sharing is fun, but also good for your brain.”
      Doctor of the Internet, Comments Sections, and Life In General

  • eponymous1

    What is this? The “Amen Corner” for the abortion cheerleading section? Killing innocent babies, in utero or out, is about the sickest “choice” an individual could make.

    I can understand supporting it in very early stages as an “out” for women who feel trapped, but cheerleading this gruesome act is simply grotesque. I didn’t know there were people like you…