• fiona64

    So far as I can tell, the whole “purity culture” infantalizes *both* genders. Women are supposed to dress, speak and behave in childlike ways lest they be considered “impure,” and men are supposed to lack the maturity to curb their impulses.

    Feh.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      I grew up surrounded by exactly that kind of fanaticism. Though its
      primarly directed at women, men do occasionally become targets. This
      happened to me personally, I was constantly accused by right wing
      fanatics of being a “criminal”, “Rapist” or “an animal” despite having
      been a virgin myself. My only crime was being male, and later on trying
      to think for myself which got me labeled “sacriligous blasphemer”.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        This religious story is equally hard on men and women psychologically. Imagine having to live up to this mythical idea of “manhood.’

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          I wish I had to imagine it. I survived it first hand. Still recovering and trying to resist thoughts of feeling worthless or worse. Still very hard to live among others with any kind of self respect.

          • painkills2

            Do not let others be a mirror for how you feel or what you think. Know yourself, get to like yourself, and acceptance will follow. It is worth the journey. :-)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am familiar with the journey toward self respect. God speed. I find that meditation helps considerably. I have an instant mantra I use to counter horrifying thoughts. Takes a few seconds and works well.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            thanks to plum & painkills, I’m just starting on that road this year, its not easy surrounded by the religious crazies. I’ve seen where the other way goes, pain, isolation & loneliness, anger & hatred. I just keep trying to imagine a world without those things. I’ve not had it as bad as many others but still I felt like hell isn’t a place where the guilty go when they die but its something we have right here. So if wanting live a more positive life is jailbreak then pass the cake with the hacksaw inside.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am here to tell you that when one breaks through, hell becomes paradise with a one or two fleas. For me, it has been largely mental hygiene. I had to learn how not to oppress myself.

        • Origami_Isopod

          No, it’s really not. Men are hurt by patriarchy but women are oppressed by it.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I do not quite understand what you mean. Would you elaborate?

          • Arekushieru

            Men benefit from patriarchy, but are hurt by it. Women are oppressed by patriarchy AND they are hurt by it. That’s what OI means.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Ah got it. I agree.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            I’ve never seen any benefit from it personally.

          • Arekushieru

            That’s because patriarchy doesn’t grant individual benefits.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            what I meant was I myself hadn’t seen anyone (or group) benefit but I do get what you mean I think.

    • Dana

      Mysteriously, men are not usually punished for not curbing their impulses. Even getting them prosecuted for rape seems too much to ask most of the time.

      Everyone can frigging quit it with the false equivalency arguments around sexism. Yes, men are raped, but usually by other men. Yes, men are subjected to stupid patriarchal standards, but they’re still more powerful than women in a patriarchy. Can we not lose sight of that, please?

      • fiona64

        I don’t think I’ve lost sight of that at all, thanks. My point was that the whole “purity culture” is nonsense and sends bad messages to *both* genders. That’s not false equivalence.

      • corruptintenz

        It doesn’t have to be equivalent. Men rape women. Women rape men. Men rape men. Women rape women. 9000 male victims of rape last year in the UK. Is it not horrifying that there was even 1 rape in the UK of any gender?

        Please share your data on most men being raped by men.

  • Kennedy

    I don’t think her opinion is uniformed at all. She is quite well educated and experienced. Her explanations align quite well with what I’ve grown up being taught in the Church of Christ, as well as many others I know from other denominations (such as Baptist, which she discusses here). And note she talks about “evangelical” Christianity and their teachings. I could be mistaken, but I don’t think that Catholics are typically considered evangelical unless they particularly claim that association for themselves. Here is a link to her blog, check it out. Quite good reading. http://diannaeanderson.net

    • Ella Warnock

      Ah yes, good old churchachrist teaching. Designed to make you neurotic about, well, anything you do that’s completely normal.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Thanks for the link.

  • expect_resistance

    The “purity” movement is damaging to young women and girls. Teaching a woman that her “potential relationships and sexual choices are of paramount importance” is ridiculous. What is most important should be getting a good education and going to college.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I have a friend who wrote an article to and for teens about abstinence as life and freedom promoting for girls. I would be interested to see what you all think about it. So if you have time and see this and you have the inclination to read it, I would be happy to hear any critique.

      Teen Abstinence: A WINNING Advantage

      Many teens do not realize that abstinence from sex with partners is a winning advantage. This is why I think it’s important to give teens a list of the freedoms that abstinence provides. The top ten winning advantages of teen abstinence are:

      1. Freedom from unwanted teen pregnancy and teen motherhood.
      2. Freedom from incurable STDs like Herpes and fatal STDs like AIDS.
      3. Freedom to concentrate on school work and participate in school activities.
      4. Freedom to get all homework assignments and studying done and maintain or improve grades.
      5. Freedom to participate in learning programs for future jobs and careers.
      6. Freedom to graduate with classmates and receive a high school diploma.
      7. Freedom to move on to college or vocational school with no restrictions.
      8. Freedom to complete a college or vocational program with a degree or certificate.
      9. Freedom to look for and accept good jobs with higher salaries.
      10. Freedom to get valuable job experience in a chosen career and take courses to learn more job skills.

      Getting pregnant and becoming a teen mother will, quite possibly, take away most of these freedoms, if not all of them. A teen mom has to put the care of her baby first, which means putting her education second. If she has to study for an important test and the baby is sick, the studying may not get done because she has to care for the baby. That may result in her doing poorly on the exam instead of doing well. If a teen mom wants to attend her junior or senior prom but has no one to watch the baby for her, she can’t go to the dance and has to stay home. If a teen mom is going to college, she may fail one or more classes because caring for her baby or child took priority over completing all her course requirements. A teen mom may even have to drop out of high school or college because she could not take care of her baby and do all her school work at the same time.

      By contrast, a teen girl who realizes that abstinence from sex in high school and college is a clear winning advantage will avoid sex with partners during those years. She will keep her freedom to enjoy all the advantages that teen abstinence offers. She is free to concentrate in school, get all her class and homework assignments done, attend any dances she wishes, and take part in school activities like working on the school newspaper or yearbook. Best of all, she will graduate with her class and go on to college or vocational school afterward.

      If she avoids sexual activity with partners during her college or vocational school years, she will continue to enjoy the advantages indefinitely. She may even decide at some point that she prefers the career world over marriage and children, which is a perfectly valid choice. Not all women wish to be wives and mothers.

      It is my firm belief that there is nothing good about getting pregnant as a teenager. Teen pregnancy and teen motherhood can impair or even destroy a girl’s ability to get a good education, which is the foundation for good employment. If a girl cannot get a good job because she doesn’t have a high school diploma, poverty may become inevitable.

      Sadly, many teen girls don’t know how very hard teen motherhood is until it is too late. They don’t know because no one ever told them, either at home or at school. It is about time that changed. The “just say no” approach to abstinence-only sex education programs is miserably inadequate because it doesn’t explain WHY teens, especially girls, should say no to sex. Encouraging abstinence is fine, as long as teens are given good reasons why abstinence is better for teens than sex. The top ten list of winning advantages is a good informational tool to start off with. When a large majority of teens have this information, they may soon begin to realize that enjoying the advantages of abstinence is a much better option for them than being trapped by the burden of teen motherhood.

      • Arekushieru

        It’s still judgmental, in some ways, unfortunately. What about those teens that are already mothers? This basically tells them that they (haven’t)can’t achieve(d) anything of worth. The onus is never placed on changing the things that may make it (more) difficult to parent, as a teen, just on the teen, herself, after all. Also, it fails to recognize that humans are sexual beings. Even me, not only because of the reasons I mentioned below (?), but also because I *define* myself as asexual. My being is defined by my sexual orientation, after all. The majority of us just happen to be sexually active. Which brings me to my last point. This might work better if she didn’t focus on the women benefiting from abstinence. It’s a conversation that’s been had so many times, already. And is an example of where the purity culture arises from.

        Sorry, again, it seems that I’m being negative over your posts, but you did invite criticism, so I’m hoping that it’s alright that I’m the first to reply! >_<:

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          No apology needed or wanted. I asked for opinion. I would be an ingrate if I complained about getting what I asked for. Since I was an unwed teen Mother, I had the same response. What about me?

          • Arekushieru

            Plum Dumpling… you’re AWESOME.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am just reasonable. It is hard to meet a reasonable person on a message board. This joint seems to have a lot of reasonable people – like you. It is why I come here.

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          I thought my response was a bit over the top since when I read it my feelings told me GRRRR. but I guess that’s just me.

      • expect_resistance

        I’ll reading it now and will get back to you soon. Sporadic internet access this weekend. Thanks for asking my opinion.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Thank you for responding. No rush.

      • expect_resistance

        Hi Plum Dumpling – Here goes (it’s a long reply)

        First, I don’t like the title “Winning Advantage.” If you decide not to abstain you’re a loser? It reminds me of televangelist Mac Hammond’s show “the Winners Way.” I don’t like the judgment call on winners and losers. I would like to see it more as a decision matrix. Sort of like “Things to consider if you plan to have sex.”

        Author’s
        points 1-10.

        1. The phase, “Freedom from” sounds weird. How about? If you want to have sex and don’t want to be a teen mom, what kind of birth control will you use? What is your “birth control IQ?” Consider if you are ready to use birth control responsibly and what will you do if you become pregnant? Do you have money and access to have an abortion?

        2. This sounds more like a scare tactic. Yes, there are some bad STDs but there have been medical advances for treatments and vaccines like the HPV vaccine. Yes, there are some antibiotic resistant strains of diseases too, but that goes beyond STDs. I think education about STDs would be more important than a scare tactic and not addressing the facts.

        3. For me this one didn’t make sense. As a teen, I was thinking about boys too much to concentrate on homework sometimes (when I was a virgin). For me school was not interesting and I was board. I think the author’s statement indicates a teen would be too busy having sex to do their homework? When you’re young sex doesn’t take that long. I could have sex after school (for like five minutes) and then do my homework afterwards.

        4. Freedom to get all homework assignments and studying done and maintain or improve grades. Also, this one didn’t make sense. I still had problems with this when I was a virgin and wasn’t thinking about sex, but I had an undiagnosed mental illness and had problems getting my work done.

        5. “Freedom to participate in learning programs for future jobs and careers.”
        Once again not sure what being abstinent has to do with this. I think having
        access to good career counselors and a good school would be better.

        6. “Freedom to graduate with classmates and receive a high school diploma.” Again this one is lost on me. Girls I knew in my Catholic high school that were pregnant at graduation still graduated with everyone else. Those who didn’t want to be pregnant had an abortion.

        Numbers 7-10 once again not sure what the author is getting at. I think these issues go beyond abstinence. I think these issues are related to
        socioeconomic/gender/race issues. Just because you have sex doesn’t mean you will get pregnant and/or carry out a pregnancy. If your abstinent it doesn’t mean you will be able to go to the college/university of your choice.

        The author makes it sound like a teen’s life will be perfect if they don’t have
        sex. There is an absence of other issues teens face. I think her views are
        completely unrealistic. I do agree with her that not all women wish to be wives and mothers. I am childless by choice. I’ve never had an interest in having children. Is the author anti-choice? There is no discussion of what feelings teen girls have about their interest or desire to have sex. There is no mention of abortion. The author doesn’t address what the teens interests are. What is the teens access to and knowledge of birth control, abortion, sexual pleasure, masturbation? The author also doesn’t address anything but heterosexual sex. There are so many other issues one could write about when it comes to have or not have sex without focusing on abstinence. I think abstinence is unrealistic and a “cure-all” in some peoples minds. I would like to see a feminist article on teen sexual health (from all sexual orientations) instead of the author’s “winning advantage.”

        Hope my feedback is helpful.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I did not write the piece. I love my friend who wrote it and I like that she is taling about women/girls winning. I have reservations about the piece too which is why I asked for criticism. Give me some time to do the reading your response deserves and I will get back to you. Thank you.

          • expect_resistance

            Cool. I’m not a sports person so I don’t like the phrase “winners and losers” not that it’s solely a sports metaphor but the phrase of “winners and losers” annoys me personally. I think your friend may have the right intentions but I think there are better ways to talk to teens more holistically and from a non-hetrosexual only standpoint. I hear myself saying some of these things to my niece who’s 17 but I try to focus it on what she wants out of her future. What does she want to do? What are her goals and desires?

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            I was a bit confused when you first posted that. It does read to me at least a bit too close to the typical televangelist propoganda. It also completely ignores the concepts of safer sex. Also ignores the realities inside a relationship. sorry if I sound like I’m coming on strong but with my history it sounds an awful lot like the stuff used against me in my younger days even though I was no “man-skank”

        • Arekushieru

          “Again this one is lost on me. Girls I knew in my Catholic high school
          that were pregnant at graduation still graduated with everyone else.
          Those who didn’t want to be pregnant had an abortion.”

          While I’m well aware that many young teen mothers can and do graduate with their peers (there were quite a few just in my grade, alone, and I grew up in a small town with only one school. So, you can imagine that this was a high percentage. But I digress…), I think we have to admit that there are many more challenges that young teen mothers face that teens without children won’t ever have to face. I just think that we should put the blame where it really belongs. NOT on the young teen mothers, but on the lack of social supports that are provided for her.

          • expect_resistance

            For sure. I think there are many more challenges teen mothers face than non-teen mothers. I would go further and say single parents and parents have more challenges than those without children. This is why I don’t ever want to have children. I don’t want the challenge of taking care of and rearing children. When I was in high school my boyfriend’s sister got pregnant in her senior year. Her and I were the same age. At the time I was sexually active and was on the pill. She got pregnant and decided to carry out the pregnancy and keep the baby. I learned first hand how difficult it was for her to be a teen mom. I lived with my boyfriend, his sister, the baby, and his mom. I can’t tell you how many times I listened to the baby scream in the middle of the night and how difficult her (boyfriend’s sister’s) life was. That was the best form of birth control for me. Her life was forever changed by being a teen mom. I don’t think she ever went to college or had a career.

      • Guest

        I have a few problems with it.
        1. It focuses on the external – if you don’t have sex = good stuff, if you have sex = bad stuff. I’d prefer an approach that focused on one’s internal state – readiness, consent, knowledge about one’s own sexuality.
        2. It doesn’t mention masturbation – in my view, any guide that is aimed at teens and doesn’t include masturbation isn’t a good guide.
        3. It assumes that every teen girl is hetero – lesbian and bi girls need sex ed just as much, just because that isn’t likely to lead to pregnancy or STDs, it tends to get ignored.
        4. Like other people mentioned, it’s perfectly possible to have a sex life and go to school, do extracurriculars, go to college, get a good job – in fact that’s what most teens do – presenting it like you won’t get those things merely by having sex is unrealistic and teens know it.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Thank you for your observations.

    • Nancy Knowles

      Please. Stop giving advice. About anything. You. Just. Don’t. Know. Enough. Yet. Live some more and then bless us with your wisdom when you’re a little more removed from that Psych 101 class (or whoever that liberal professor was you fell in love with.)

      • CJ99

        Instead of insulting everyone elses intelligence put yourself in some remedial classes starting with english. One word does not make a sentence, nor does a mindfart make infallible logic.

  • jruwaldt

    It’s also obvious that only wives can refuse to have sex. Even though they often suggest that women can and should want to have sex with their husbands, not just submit, they feel that a wife who isn’t getting enough should just deal with it. I believe Pat Robertson actually made these statements, telling a woman whose husband was cheating on her that she shouldn’t be upset but maybe she should be having more sex with him and telling a woman who wasn’t having enough sex that her husband was tired and she should respect his wishes.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Jewish culture has this handled. That is not to say that Jews do not oppress women religiously and psychologically. Some do. Some do not.

      Sex is the woman’s right, not the man’s. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman’s right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and it is one of a wife’s three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband’s occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband’s consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.

      Although sex is the woman’s right, she does not have absolute discretion to withhold it from her husband. A woman may not withhold sex from her husband as a form of punishment, and if she does, the husband may divorce her without paying the substantial divorce settlement provided for in the ketubah.

      • Arekushieru

        Sorry, but what you described sounds very misogynistic to me, Plum. I do apologize, but it just does.

        “In addition, a husband’s consistent refusal to engage in sexual
        relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if
        the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.”

        It’s grounds for the man to divorce his wife? So, she doesn’t get the sex, but he’s the one who gets to divorce her? Isn’t that like saying, here, that because a man gets all the sex he wants from his wife, she can’t divorce him?

        Besides, having a right to sex, does not mean one should HAVE to exercise it. If it’s an either/or thing, they ARE still putting women in a virgin/’whore’ dichotomy.

        And your last paragraph seems to emphasize that point. What do they consider ‘punishment’? Withholding sex for whatever reason could be construed as a punishment, after all.

        And, finally, if the woman withholds it’s still the man who gets to decide whether they will divorce?

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          All good questions. To which I do not have an answer. I am just happy with the idea that my sexuality is worthy of fullfillment. I married a man who sucked in the bed. I thought, because of my enculturation, that sexual satisfaction was not all that important. I was wrong. Now I go without sex out of personal choice and I am happy with my state. Very happy and not at all inclined to alter my state. But I love and respect the self that needed and wanted sexual fulfillment. Whole thing is a mess. I am clear where I stand but I am not at all clear that my stand will work for others.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          I have been reflecting on what you said. I think the whole marriage/sexual-exclusivity arrangement is inherently oppressive. I read about an arrangement in which women have no husband and their family/brother is considered a coparent of all her children. I like that idea.

          • Arekushieru

            Yeah, that’s cool! Parenting can be a difficult job, and it should get easier (at least, in some respects) with other people involved.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I think it cuts out all the macho shyte for sure. It was some anthropological thing I was reading about kinship systems.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Sorry, but in the first place he looks like he’s about twelve, and he sounds like he’s pushing the same junk that all of them push. The fact that he’s wrapping it up in a more humane context doesn’t make it any better.

    • grzybowskib

      Which parts are junk?

      • Jennifer Starr

        Basically pretty much from start to finish–I remember hearing stuff like this in youth group. Didn’t like youth group much. Though I will give him some respect for not pushing the whole ‘your virginity is the most precious thing you own and you’re worth less without it ‘ crap, though I’m only hearing part of this speech. Thank goodness I attended high school in the ’80s and had proper comprehensive sex-ed, because if I’d only had this to go by I probably never would have abstained during my teen years.

        • grzybowskib

          So never mind the fact that he says there are times for abstinence within marriage, which completely undermines what Ms. Anderson writers here. Never mind he demolished the myths nowadays that sex is all about “performance” and it has nothing to do with making a gift of one’s self to another. Never mind that he said chastity and abstinence must be motivated by love. Never mind that everything he said here applies to both sexes. Never mind those parts at all. Even though they were pretty intelligent if you ask me.

          • http://www.allourlives.org/ TooManyJens

            I’m not watching the video, but I’m willing to stipulate that he doesn’t say the toxic things about “purity” that Dianna described. But he’s one person, and that doesn’t prove that those notions aren’t pervasive in the community she’s talking about.

          • HeilMary1

            His insulting blather doesn’t apply to disfigured spinsters like me who will never get husbands and to LGBT folks who often aren’t allowed to marry their preferred partners. And abstinence in marriage drove my dad to hookers and my mom to disfigure me. The only people who should be practicing abstinence are pedophile priests and Newt Gingrich.

          • cvxxx

            That reads if you have a story to tell. Considering also that until rather recently the fact that some people have very low or none existent sex drives has been uncovered.

          • colleen2

            Yes, well, I think you’ll find that within the traditional gender roles vomited up continuously by the religious right that the inferior partner the woman, does not really have a say in when those times are. Indeed according to your church our EMPLOYER should have more of a say about when and how often we gestate children than we do. Our EMPLOYER should have this say even if we aren’t Catholic. The employer has this say even if we aren’t Christian. As Paul Ryan says, the Catholic church and her Republican politicians think that rape is just another form of conception They oppose any attempts to make martial rape a crime. stop lying.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well he’s being pretty much a Captain Obvious regarding abstinence within marriage, seeing as no one has the stamina or desire to go at it 24/7. My parents have been married for forty-two years, very much in love and still have a healthy sex life, though obviously not all the time. And I’m,sorry, but performance is important. That is not a myth. While no one is what you call extremely good at sex the very first time–and trust me when I say that first times are way overrated–you get better with practice and communication. Communication is definitely key and both parties should have sex that they enjoy. But if you have a partner who refuses to engage in foreplay, try new positions and new things and basically just expects you to ‘lie back and think of England’ while he pumps away, it can be very wearing on a relationship, married or otherwise. Trust me–I have a friend who’s been dealing with this in her marriage–she loves him and he loves her but it’s extremely frustrating and it does take its toll.

          • grzybowskib

            exactly. you get better with practice and communication. so you have your entire adult lives to figure that out. there’s no need to rush or be impatient.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Okay, I’m a mite confused now, trying to figure out why you’re telling this to someone who hasn’t been a teenager in over twenty years. And as I said before, I did abstain as a teen, but that was due to comprehensive sex-ed in school. It had nothing to do with the purity/chastity BS I learned in youth group.

          • grzybowskib

            I am saying, in general, that when couples get married, they have their entire married lives to figure out to have good sex with each other. as you said, it takes communication and practice. so a newly married couple has plenty of time to communicate and practice and figure things out with each other when it comes to sex.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Assuming that you have a spouse that you’re able to communicate frankly with. Many, if not most Christian conservative males are very uncomfortable or reluctant to even discuss these matters with their spouses. Not to mention that some believe that foreplay or any kind of deviation from the traditional missionary position is morally wrong. And what’s really unfortunate is that in many cases, the ‘purity culture’ has also brought with it the idea of nineteenth-century style courtship, which gives a couple no time to discover if they’re compatible in any way whatsoever, let alone sexually. But make no mistake–sexual compatibility can make or break a relationship.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            I swear I didn’t read your reply before writing my own. Perhaps we’ve read or heard some of the same sources? A couple of mine are Sue Johansen & the famous Dr. Ruth.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Those are a couple of my sources too, along with friends’ relationships that I’ve heard details about.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            the irony is both look the part of little old church lady but are the most honest about intimacy as one could find.

          • HeilMary1

            Many people want sex once per week or far less often, while some want it three times per day. One of my middle-aged spinster aunts divorced her husband after a few months because he wanted sex all the time.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            What utter BS, too many couples who are denied any real education in these matters never learn what works for them. Some extreme examples included those who’d been married their entire adult lives never knowing that coitus even existed. They end up suffering through a semi annual bout of missionary position with no foreplay, no passion all of it over in 90 seconds. And they experience boatloads of religion induced guilt over having “done it” without communicating in the slightest out of shame over having natural human feelings.

          • HeilMary1

            What if they soon learn they are completely REPULSED by each other’s bodies?? Sexual repulsion quickly poisons everything else.

          • HeilMary1

            My virgin ex neighbor married a closet gay who took her to a gay dive for their “honeymoon”. It took her 10 YEARS to get an annulment from a never-consummated marriage. How much more patience should she have practiced??? He had no problem doing it with other men, but female wives were just for cover.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            I’ve heard of similar stories. No doubt its very real and the emotional toll on women in those situations is devastating in the extreme. If there’s something worse than being rejected by the person one married I don’t wanna know what it is.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            This is textbook example of whats wrong with religious fanaticism. The unquestioning loyalty to utter stupidity. Controlling another persons body and indeed their entire life is never about love.

          • Amanda Kazarian

            Being crappy in bed ain’t much of a gift. Sorry but performance does count, its how I know you really give a shit about pleasuring your partner.

        • grzybowskib

          Also, this man is 37 years old.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And?

          • grzybowskib

            You said he looks like he’s twelve. I just want to let you know that he’s 37.

          • HeilMary1

            So he’s MENTALLY 12!

          • colleen2

            and as ignorant about women as a 12 year old.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            All the more reason he should know better. Grade schoolers could knock his steaming pile right out of the park in 1 swing.

          • grzybowskib

            right. because grade schoolers know all there is to know about sex. my bad. I forgot about that.

          • HeilMary1

            Extremist Catholic teens and adults are awfully ignorant about sex and childbirth dangers as well.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            Of the people I’ve met its more often those who are older who are more extreme.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            Unlike you grade schoolers don’t for the most part make a habit of being stupid. and the schools I went to did have accurate sex ed as a part of health class, as you’d be better off if you’d attended.

          • grzybowskib

            I’m stupid? Are ad-hominem attacks all you have?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Stupid and ignorant about sex is what you are. And you are trying to push your stupid onto others. Stupid and ignorant is not evil. But trying to get folks to join you in stupid and ignorant is evil.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            You lie through your teeth, try to force your absurd & intolerant fanaticism on others yet you accuse me of making ad hom attacks. what a bizarre fantasy world you live in. But in reality where I live facts, knowlege and capability to think for myself is what I’ve got.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That was not an ad-hominem attack. What he was saying is that students are better off having accurate, comprehensive sex-education, instead of this abstinence-only/purity nonsense.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Grade schoolers have sex. We were playing doctor at 8 and 10. We did not have intercouse but we were sexual beings. Girls in my town, some of them, start having intercourse at 12. You do not know anything about human sexuality. So stop preaching about it. You look ridiculous.

      • colleen2

        all of it.

        • grzybowskib

          why?

    • HeilMary1

      She posts a lot on Crisis Magazine that was run for awhile by the egregious GOP theothug Deal Hudson. Hudson was outed by National Catholic Reporter for adultery, wife dumping and raping a Fordham student. “Catholic” Hudson has cheated on all THREE of his wives, got a family man graphic artist fired from the USCCB because he supported John Kerry, and paid $30,000 in damages to the 18-year-old Fordham student he got drunk and raped while his THIRD younger wife took care of his only offspring. Hypocrite bullies should be run out of town. Crisis Magazine caters to fascist Catholic bully hypocrites, and I’ve been kicked off it many times for posting inconvenient truths.

      • Jennifer Starr

        So basically Deal Hudson practices your typical ‘Republican Family Values’.

        • HeilMary1

          He proves “abstinence makes the heart grow fondLerS”.

          • expect_resistance

            If only the priests could practice abstinence.

          • grzybowskib

            what about the public school teachers who don’t have to pledge to be celibate? why are you not getting your panties in a wad over them?

          • HeilMary1

            They are not mother-killing hypocrites like pedophile priests. And public schools have a far lower rate of abusive teachers than RCC schools.

          • grzybowskib

            mother killing hypocrites? hm… I had two great uncles who were priests until one of them died about 6 years ago. neither of them were pedophiles or mother killers, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And you know all about their sexual lives? How so? Were you hiding under their beds?

          • colleen2

            I’m sorry you are unaware that the Catholic church has a considerable and completely unresolved issue. They tend to emotionally, physically and sexually abuse children in their care and then protect and enable the abusers rather than protect that children. You and your uncles do the former (according to you and I don’t find you particularly credible).

            You should read the news more. There are articles about this problem every day.

          • HeilMary1

            Their opposition to mother-saving contraception has resulted in high maternal death rates throughout history.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            public schools make a habit of keeping child rapists OUT. And since public school teaches can have relationships & get married they have an outlet for their very human needs that doesn’t involve victimizing kids.

          • Origami_Isopod

            Because they’re not going around preaching how everybody should live a gawwwwwdly life.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Because public school teachers have a number of things happening that make them different than the RC priest.

            1. A grade school teacher is a mandated reporter.

            2. Being found out results in instant firing and not a transfer to another school.

            3. A teacher has a limited and nonprivate contact with any child. Not so the priest. One priest in our diocese was a family favorite, invited often to dinner, and who went up to “bid the children good night.” That is not all he did.

            http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/03/how_to_prosecute_your_local_priest.html

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            public school teachers (or any staff) are not only fired if they molest but face more serious repurcussions.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Did I say firing was the only repercussion? Priests are not fired or reported the the police. Teachers are.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            no plum very true but some might overlook. I’m not trying to poke you with a stick or anything like that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Okay. i apologize for being testy. I was answering from the disqus dashboard and in the middle of arguments with others. I did not quite know where I was.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      Religious Fanatics do it all the time. They’ll lie to you constantly through the most disingenuous smile. They’ll act like they’re doing it for your best interest right up until they deal the proverbial knife in the back.

  • http://www.dirtydiaperchic.com/ laura g

    yeah, because you know someone who comes at this topic from a different religion’s perspective, doesn’t mean Dianna’s uninformed. And actually, a lot of the lines this guy uses are totally addressed (and by addressed, I mean demolished) in the series Sarah Moon does that Dianna links to in her pieces. So I don’t think “uninformed” is a good word choice. I’d actually recommend you check out Sarah Moon’s series and Dianna’s blog that Kennedy linked to. They are kind of awesome.

  • kchapmangibbons

    Thanks for this Dianna and Sarah Moon too! I’m an X-er and much of this analysis wasn’t around when I was leaving that background. It is so important to keep the spotlight on what their words mean in women’s lives.

  • expect_resistance

    In addition –
    It’s clear this is a well researched article. A couple of key take-aways from the article: (Text in quotations is from the article)
    * “During the recent government shutdown and the ongoing battle over the Affordable Care Act, we’re seeing the far-reaching effects of a theology in which a woman’s purity is the most important part of her life.” –Therefore “purity” culture is being transferred to all women regardless of their own person religious beliefs. Theocratic Christians are deeming all women who use birth control as sluts and promiscuous.

    * “Fathers and daughters dress up in their nicest outfits, and the daughters make a pledge of purity to their father and to God. In the most extreme examples, the daughter is considered under the authority of her father until the day she marries, at which point she transfers that authority to her husband.” — Under this women have no agency. This is very detrimental to women. I think they should do a study on the long lasting damage of the “purity” culture.

    * “her body does not belong to her, but rather to her future husband, and a lapse in purity is a betrayal of her future relationship.” — Once again this enforces a woman as no agency of her own. It’s a guilt based way of shaming and humiliating women. It sounds like something the Taliban would do.

    In essence, “Purity culture, in the evangelical world, is nothing more than an elaborate form of rape culture.”

    The “purity” culture robs a women of her agency, self determination, and self worth.

    • Riley

      You’re missing the point that in Christian theology, a man’s body belongs to his wife as well as hers to him.

      • expect_resistance

        Don’t think so. Did you read the article? Did you actually read my post?

        • Nancy Knowles

          The article is not the source, it is the derivative … and it is so misrepresentative that it begs investigation as to whether or not its author is making fraudulent claims. Those who actually KNOW the scriptures on this, know that Christian marriage calls for both man & wife to submit to one another. This author is not making fun of the “purity culture” – that is just a convenient distraction for her passive aggressive snark. She’s actually making fun of purity, and one can only guess why (actually, it’s not that much of a guess since her “theology” all starts and ends with her). And for all these know-it-all’s who make fun of the “50’s”, all one has to do is simply look at what we have now and it’s not hard to adjudicate these hubris-filled prima donna’s as the fools they are. Women are not liberated. They are not free. They are not in charge. They are more “trafficked” than ever before and, sadly, it is totally self-inflicted.

          At any rate, this author does NOT speak for, nor does she know, evangelicalism. Don’t buy any of it – not even for a minute.

          • Ella Warnock

            Hmm, according to your comment, I should be pretty miserable right now. Wonder why I’m not?

          • expect_resistance

            This is the author’s experience of growing up in the evangelical purity culture. Are you calling her a liar? The author is not making fraudulent claims. There has been plenty of research done on the “purity culture.” For example Jessica Valenti’s book “The Purity Myth.” You think she’s snarky just because your pissed off at what she is saying. Please get over it.

            The author is speaking to the fact that evangelical Christianity has seeped it’s way into politics, which is bad for women. I repeat from the article “It’s the backbone to the entire concept of purity, the theological underpinning that makes conservative evangelicals such a unique breed. Until we understand just how deeply this “You are not your own” theology is intertwined within purity culture, we will not be able to truly understand the politicians who discuss rape in horrific terms, or the reasons Christian employers see fit to interfere with their employees’ access to birth control.”

          • Nancy Knowles

            I would need a lot more information in order to determine if she is lying here. However, there is no question that she is not speaking the truth. Aren’t we kind of sick of twenty something’s acting as if they have the wisdom of a full life when they still have acne?

          • CJ99

            nancy whats very clear to the rest of us here is that you certainly don’t have the wisdom of a full life.

          • expect_resistance

            Your post doesn’t make sense.

      • cjvg

        Really, so why are there no purity balls were sons have to promise to stay “pure” to their mothers?
        It seems that only women or girls are actually expected to promise to stay pure to their fathers, and subsequently deliver themselves “pure” to their husbands (presumably to be “defiled” by said husbands?)

  • sakaly22

    It is stuff like this that makes me so glad that I saw the light….. and completely turned away from Christianity. Also, Pat Robertson is a total douche and I hope him and Rush Limbaugh end up chained to each other, alone in a tiny room together, for eternity.

    • expect_resistance

      I just about bust a gut from your post –“(Pat Robertson and) Rush Limbaugh end up chained to each other, alone in a tiny room together, for eternity.” I just imagined a SNL skit about it. Pat Robertson is such a complete clown. I’m happy to be an ex-Catholic pagan.

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        remember that old SNL character “It’s Pat”?

        Pat Robertson, coincidence? methinks not.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      pat robertson & limbaugh in the same room, theres a word for that, its called HELL.

    • HeilMary1

      And without the company of rent boys and girls in their little hell cell!

    • roninbear

      That really is the best hell thou could wish on both of them. I can think of a few people like to chain into them for a couple hundred years threesome.

  • Kenton Forshee

    What we’ve been seeing makes sense now. Sick Sick Sick.

  • Leyla Abdulla

    As an anthropoligost I can only say- the less clothes are worn in a culture, the less restrained females are sexually- the lss rape we seen. Actually, highest rape cases ar ein most conservative tribes/populations. I love the fact that in Native American cultures there is not even a word equivalent to “slut”. Men and women are owners of their own bodies, and can do what they please as long as there is no other agreement between partners( which during martiarchal rule wasn’t even an issue; no one was a subject to another person; marriage didn’t exist, and everyone lead a fulfilling community life, free of posession and jealosy. I don’t mind someone “keeping their purity”- let them feel superior…although being so obsessed about a piece of skin between the legs has absolutely no other value but create fear and unnecessary lack of joy and pleasure: which are very good for our body! Sex is crusial for female health even more than man’s- and we so often deprive ourselves of natural behavious due to unnatural brainwashing ideology. As noticed= most sexually frustrated men are also present in most conservative societies. As the ass above called woman a buffet: well- not everything on the show is for everyone to have; and its certainly men who should learn to control their erections, if they do want ot separate themselves from mere animals. And a male acting like an animal should not be considered human in that regard, so I’d just tie them to a tree for safety. Cage?.I can dance with a Jamaican the way I wouldn’t dance with most ( Christian raised mostly) white guys, and never, ever with someone from Middle East;- who get instant erection at proximity to the back. Carribean men didn’t bother me that way- their sexual life is rich, and colourful. Supressing natural impulses cause stress, phychological switches( phychosis); feeling of unsatisfaction often turns into aggression. In any case – its not healthy. Even worse if you marry someone you never been to bed with,and realize they are not good in bed at all: years of torture that is for demanding and sensitive female body! Explore your own, explore one of your partner; respect body as a temple of soul, and don’t waste your energy on shame, and/or jealosy. Enjoy getting laid but be safe! And keep moderation in all things. .

    • Sarah-Sophia

      There has been many matrilineal societies in the past, and there are still matrilineal societies in the present (like the Na of China) but there has never been a matriarchal (women dominating men in the way that patriarchy makes men dominate over women) in human history. (The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory by Cynthia Eller).

      • Arekushieru

        AGREED! Perhaps even gylaneous (a term coined by the author of The Chalice and the Blade, to imply a culture where men and women worked together, although women may fill the majority of leadership positions) societies existed, but not true matriarchies. And it really grinds my gears when people equate it with either of the two mentioned above.

    • Arekushieru

      “Sex is crusial for female health even more than man’s- and we so often
      deprive ourselves of natural behavious due to unnatural brainwashing
      ideology.”

      Absolutely untrue. I’m female, healthy… and just happen to be asexual.

      • expect_resistance

        Excellent point!

      • HeilMary1

        I applaud how you don’t feel intimidated by, jealous of, or condemning of the sexually active. And really, most people practice plenty of abstinence by default.

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        I look at it this way, everyone’s needs / desires are different. Mine I’d guess are higher than yours but that shouldn’t take away from the self worth of anyone. It just makes the point that people should have self determination in finding a partner (or not) who they can relate to, not just physically either.

    • Origami_Isopod

      No such thing as matriarchal rule, ever. I wish feminists would not spread this myth.

  • cvxxx

    The author stumbles on the real problem of the culture of no as it refers to rape. For males the no is a turn on increasing the desire not decreasing. A boy from a “No” culture would consider a verbal no to mean “protecting the purity” so she can have the excuse of his allure to give in to his (physically welcome but forbidden) advances. But later that will get him in trouble with the other cultures he and she will encounter.

    • colleen2

      I would just like to point out that you demean other males when you say:

      “For males the no is a turn on increasing the desire not decreasing.”

      I do not believe this is true of all male humans or even true of most male humans. It IS true of rapists and men inclined to rape. Guys who act on this belong in jail.

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        Being a guy I can say with certainty that if a woman isn’t interested me than I’m not really turned on at all.

        • cvxxx

          That is not what was meant. In some subcultures a “good” female is not supposed to want sex. Only “bad women” desire sexual contact. If a “good” woman desired sex then the culture required a facade of resistance to that “sin”.

          It is within the context of these learned behaviors that when one is out side of the original group communication problems occur.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            thats exactly what you meant, your just pissy cause you got caught out. The only dance you know is dancing around the facts.

          • cvxxx

            What facts? What are you referring to?

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            Do you not read your own previous statements? I could eat alphabet soup and barf a better counter-argument. Everything you’ve said has been complete nonsense. Just 1 long string of randomly selected mufflebutt statements. You really are very amateurish starting with “no means yes” which has been crushed to dust repeatedly then trying to smother your losing arguments by pretense of agreement. but its nothing more than a candy coated topping on hot air.

          • cvxxx

            Just because my observation do not fit into your prejudice does not in any way say they are not correct. Because your ignorance of human mating customs is so apparent that it is cleat you do not have the background to understand. Your ignorance and defense of ignorance is the problem. Ideas that have been proven over time and are historically and anthropologically correct through the observations of scientists are to be in your mind discarded, because it does not fit your political agenda.
            A political agenda that is devoid of any accuracy. Nothing more than cobbled together thought of sheep.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            You post sexist mysoginist crap and call it fact. You make degenerate statements against women but in your gigantic leaps of illogic you claim I’m prejudiced and ignorant. then you claim there’s scientific evidence to support your bullshit. If you had a tiny fragment of proof you’ve have trotted it out by now. You’re just a fascist minded liar.

            No your just a revolting douche nozzle. Really though your just a judgmental manchild hiding behind a keyboard. I dare you to say the same drivel you spouted here to anyones face in person.

    • colleen2

      I see they disappeared your overtly pro-rape comment. I believe you are using this site as a place to troll for rape victims in order to further traumatize them. That isn’t going to happen.

      • cvxxx

        Wrong. I have dealt with the aftermath of Rape and have a good idea of what people go through. It is offensive to project one’s fears,anger,onto another whom you do not know. Since it is clear that you wish to discount any intellectual discourse that is not pro lynch mob.

        • colleen2

          That was a polite warning. You should heed it.

          • cvxxx

            Interesting when another has a different point of view it is to attack with out even understanding.

          • Arekushieru

            Seriously? Or maybe it’s just that you haven’t been able to ‘excuse’ your pro-rape comment that she saw?

          • cvxxx

            Because one does not understand what another is posting ask what they mean. There was no “pro-rape” but an observation made. Her response was unprofessional. Knee-jerk responses are not academically accepted.

            Communication has a social base. If one is conditioned to seeing ,hearing as children to adult values the adult will have internalized those teachings.
            We find this in The West and the East. The current popular thought is everyone is culturally able to communicate sexual desire in a verbal mode is not in our histories. Most social groups have a progression of steps to mating. A member of one group may have accepted behaviors with in their group but same acts could be offensive when in a different group.

            The persons who were offended that the fact most of the progression to sexual contact is a dance one has learned. That dance is what I had observed.

            That dance is what a person has learned as the steps one takes to mating. To a person within the social group it is expected and each person knows the steps. It is as if a person from one group who does the funky chicken, travels to another group whose mating dance is the Virginia Wheel.
            What was so upsetting is the fact that the Politically Correct assumption that a verbal no is always what the other person actually means. A female trained to be a virtuous person and internalized the values that the author described may have a very difficult time casting off the dysfunctional conditionals.

            That sets the stage for miscommunication. In a nation as diverse as the United States it is not beyond belief that these miscommunications occur. After all a miscommunication dropped the 2nd atomic bomb.

            The Japanese word for surrender and I will continue to fight is tonal. Americans have few tonal words. The American translator was aware of that. However,with the communication equipment of the time the tonal if he did hear a recording would have been unclear. And he was not a native speaker.
            What colleen mistook was that in different societies the mating dance has different steps.

          • colleen2

            I ‘mistook’ nothing. You are disgusting.

          • cvxxx

            Yes you did. You want a political correct answer not an observation by someone who is objective. it is very clearly that you do not have the education to comprehend higher order thought. Ad hom attacks rather than intellectual discourse proves my point.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            She’s right, you are revolting. The only 1 here with an utter lack of education is you and your sockpuppet accounts.

          • cvxxx

            You are so wrong. Shilling for PC eh? Can’t think for yourself. Typical. I am better than some lame ignorant fool who has nothing but insults proving my point that you really do not know anything about the subject. Too bad.

          • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

            drop it, every1 here can clearly see you for what you are. the lame ignorant fool who with nothing but insults is the same person you see in the mirror. since you continue shoving your foot in your mouth you should really invest in shoes with better taste.

          • cvxxx

            In other words you have nothing to add to this discussion. Please take some time and study anthropology and sociology it would make your comments at least interesting.

          • Origami_Isopod

            “Political correctness” = “OMG I’M BEING OPPRESSED BY YOUR DEMANDS THAT I NOT BE A HUGE ASSHOLE!!”

  • Jennifer Starr

    But y’all do y’all. I’ma follow Jesus.

    Okay, I was born and raised in the South and I can honestly say that this is an expression I’ve never heard before. And what do you mean by a ‘but for approach’ with regards to purity?

  • Dez

    I’m 28 and just got married to my husband of 5 years. We both were not virgins when we first started dating and it did not matter to either of us. My husband knows I’ve had many sexual partners like he has. He definitely appreciates the skills I learned over the years. Thankfully I married a man that is secure in his manhood and doesn’t equate sex with the worth of a person.

    • HeilMary1

      Better to know you already have chemistry with your spouse than to learn on your wedding night that you are turned off by each other. The latter couples, like my parents, make EVERYONE miserable.

  • wildthang

    It is the mental fantasy life of ideology versus the real life of experience and feeling and attractions and knowing oneself. A filter placed on life and a kind of mental prophylactic that destroys a personal life and gives it to a god imposed by patriarchy from ancient history when they had no idea of biology and medicine and disease let alone birth control and antibiotics and paternity tests. Sexuality has much more to offer than just monogamy but we prefer the logic of war and rape of one country by another rather than connectivity between people. Humans are unable to see their own sexual potential for relationship.

    • osiote

      From what I have read, back in ancient times, people believed that the first man that a woman had sex with basically ‘impregnated’ her for all eternity. So that if she had sex with her future husband, she would not be haivng his babies, she would be having the babies of the man she first had sex with.

      Wonder where they got that idea.

    • Arekushieru

      Eating disorders are not something that are deliberately imposed on someone, however….

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        I’ve seen plenty of discussion of how some people have unrealistic expectations or in another way how some people try to live up to an unrealistic body image that could affect an eating disorder. Maybe I’m not putting it so eloquantly though.

      • HeilMary1

        Actually, early Christian saints, especially women, practiced plenty of anorexia in addition to whipping themselves and other self-tortures. Fasting for the sake of misery is central to extremist Catholics like Opus Dei. It just doesn’t get the attention that sexual abstinence does. Women who fail to practice RCC anorexia simply look normal or even fat. And notice how many of the PP protesters have food gluttony issues? Anorexics usually progress into bulimia because extreme denial and starvation lead to bingeing and purging, kind of like pedophile and playboy priests.

        • Arekushieru

          But… that’s not my point. Anorexia is an illness, regardless of how it starts. Sexual abstinence/starvation IS the starting point. Therefore, flagellation, self-torture, fasting, etc are the impositions, not anorexia, the illness itself.

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          The self punishments aren’t jut far back in history, I’ve heard of it in my lifetime just not so common as before from what I know. As for the dietary stuff, its not exclusive to religion but it does exist. Not very good for anyones health when it gets that extreme either.

  • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

    You must’ve missed a lot of school. Your entire post is utter gibberish. “Biblical standards” as seen today are not about healthy relationships of any kind, its more akin to slavery as a few old mostly white men dictate to the rest of humanity their every action as they perceive “the masses” to be mindless sheep who must be told what to do, micromanaged, ultimately used then discarded.

  • osiote

    You’re an ignorant fuckwit.

  • colleen2

    Having actually read the Bible I started laughing when you present ‘Biblical standards’ as something laudable or superior.

    • neroden

      It’s impossible to read the whole Bible and remain a “biblical” Christian.

    • HeilMary1

      Yeah, I wouldn’t want to practice all that polygamy and incest! I have standards, you know!

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      puts me in mind of 2 commonly known biblical “heroes”, 1 being solomon who had 300 wives & 700 concubines, ponder that for a moment, he could do the wild thing evry day for nearly 3 years and never with the same person twice. then theres David (yeah the goliath guy n later king) who while he was king had the hots for his neighbours wife & concocted a plan to have his neighbour drafted & sent off to war so he could get with the guys wife. Not only very perverted but sick twisted & cruel.

      After that I can only say one thing: biblical standards my butt!

  • Sarah-Sophia

    I think the problem is that these people have extreme dual thinking, in that if a girl (or boy) does not adhere to abstinence then that means they’re on a path toward delinquency that includes STDs, drug use, and other bad stuff. Another dual way of thinking is that pre-marital sex is always about objectification whereas married sex is not. I think that’s something else that contributes to rape culture in that it gives women a false idea of what objectification is about (showing skin and having pre-marital sex) so they don’t recognize it when it’s done to them (this applies to both the religious and the secular). Also it’s important to recognize that whore/slut shaming is also very much a part of rape culture since it reiterates the belief that a woman’s value is in her sexuality and that if she has sex too often or dresses in a certain way than she is seen as a used thing that does not deserve any help or sympathy if something bad happens to them.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      I know the bigots would call me a weirdo or worse (they already have) but what’s really objectification of women is treating them as subhuman and only as property. If if I were ever to get married I’d rather it be with someone who accepts me as a person not cause I dominate them (which I’ll never do!)

  • Arekushieru

    So, what about those, like myself, who aren’t INTERESTED in marriage? We’re not worthy of good sex? Wow, you are a bigot.

    Also, abstinence in practice is less likely to prevent pregnancy than other forms of birth control.

    • expect_resistance

      This is why I appreciate your posts. Not everyone is interested in marriage. It drives me nuts that society thinks everyone needs to partner-up and get married. I’m married and I think marriage is way overrated. I think it’s an old-fashioned idea and we would do better off as a society if we looked at other ideas of partnering, other ideas of family, living together, etc.

      • HeilMary1

        Here is an ideal arrangement you might LOVE: you and your spouse living side by side in SEPARATE houses. Separate houses, townhouses or apartments would solve the conflicting privacy, decorating, cleaning, pet and office work issues. I’ve read of such couples and they love their separate spaces.

      • Arekushieru

        And, after reading this post, I wonder if I might have caused confusion for you with my comment about asexuality when taking the above comment together with that other one. So, I’ll endeavour to explain! :) I describe myself as an asexual, hetero- demi-romantic, heteroflexible. Essentially, I do not experience sexual attraction as a specific desire. However, I may feel romantic attraction towards someone of the opposite sex, after having spent an appropriate amount of time with them. In very RARE cases I could experience that attraction towards someone of the SAME sex. That does NOT mean, however, that I can’t find sex pleasurable. It just means that the specific sexual attraction isn’t there.

        • expect_resistance

          Thanks for the expanded definitions. Honestly I don’t know that much about “asexuallity, hetero- demi-romantic, heteroflexible.” I’m more familiar with gay, straight, bisexual, and bi-curious. Although, I’m intrigued by “hetroflexible” which I would use to describe myself. I’m mostly straight and married to a man but am also attracted to women. I’ve dated and had crushes a few women. I don’t see sexuality as black or white, this or that. I think sexuality can be fluid. It’s a personal decision and no one should shame or blame anyone for their feelings.

          I guess what I was trying to say is that I appreciate your posts because you bring up ideas and issues that other people don’t. I learn from you. You said you weren’t interested in marriage in your post. That resonated with me.

          • Arekushieru

            I prefer to have definitions, and feel that these labels pretty much fit me, all throughout my life, even though I don’t see sexuality as a rigid one way street, either.

            Oh, yes, I knew what you were trying to say! It’s just that taking my comments about asexuality and this; We’re not worthy of good sex?; together, could be very confusing. It might lead you to a totally contradicting conclusion. So, I was just trying to clarify! :)

            “…I appreciate your posts because you bring up ideas and issues that other people don’t.”

            You just made my day with that comment! Because that’s EXACTLY what I’m trying to accomplish! And, sometimes, I don’t know whether I’m succeeding. So, it’s good to hear that, now and then.

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          I think you did pretty good explaining it there, since I being a guy could understand it (yeah guys don’t always understand y’know)

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      If anyone is batty enough to argue against you on that remind them of the virgin birth in the bible.

  • Jeff Cavanaugh

    Good grief, Dianna. Lie much? I grew up in “evangelical purity culture” too, and all of the purity requirements you talk about were expected of guys just as much as girls. You may not understand or like the historic Christian teaching on sex and marriage (not to mention selfhood), but don’t pretend it’s only a sham cover for hypocrisy and rape. There are plenty of Christians – evangelical and non-evangelical alike – who think abstinence before marriage and selfless sexual generosity within marriage are good things, but who have no part in perpetuating “rape culture.”

    • Jennifer Starr

      As far as I can tell, it’s mainly women who are chided and shamed for supposedly ‘causing men to stumble’ with their dress, etc. And yes, I have actually had discussions with men who claim that a woman’s body is the property of her husband. So no, I don’t think these are lies at all.

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        I dunno if I’m a rarity or not but being a man I don’t regard any woman as property. Maybe that’s why I’m still single while surrounded by lunatic bigots like “Jeff Cavanaugh”. Oh yeah I’ve seen some of those “chick publications” disguised as comic books for kids. Some of the most obnoxious drivel ever seen.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Additionally, I remember a discussion I had with a particularly obnoxious conservative Christian male in college in the early ’90s. Not only did he claim that most of the women there–myself included, were tempting him to lust just by wearing jeans–he claimed that his eyes were drawn to our crotches and backsides–but he also claimed that it was impossible for a woman to be, in his words ‘truly raped’. A point which he then attempted to demonstrate using a pencil and a paper towel roll. As you can probably guess, he didn’t have a lot of friends. He was a member of an Assembly of God congregation in our area who was fond of going to bookstores and sticking Jack Chick novels into the Astrology texts. I wish I was making this up, but to say that the whole purity and modesty thing doesn’t feed into the rape culture is a complete myth.

      • HeilMary1

        Yeah, look at all the rapist priests! Abstinence made their hearts grow fondLerS.

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        Jennifer, that guy was a pig on his best day with his perverted thinking he could very well be a rapist. maybe I’m just weird for a guy but I don’t find jeans on anyone perticularly sexy in most cases, unless their a rare well made style. Even then I’m not gonna freak out or “fly the flag” like some horny 15 year old. When I do see someone attractive, regardless of what they have on I might notice but my mind doesn’t fill with lurid thoughts nor do I blame them for looking better than I do.

        oh yeah anybody can be raped. Rape is forcing another into unwanted sexual activity Gender, age or other criteria don’t exclude anyone.

        • cjvg

          Not strange at all, you are definitely not the only male I have heard this from.

          Case in point, my spouse also does not find jeans a very alluring choice of dress on anyone!
          I personally like them on him, so occasionally he will wear them for me (as long as I find him some soft and comfortable ones that is).

      • Ella Warnock

        What a weirdo. Some guys will go to any lengths to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their own behavior at all.

        There’s a true whackadoodle who comments on a lot of the catholic pages on Patheos.com. He claims that he doesn’t “recognize” consent. So he and his wife (gawd what a train wreck she has to be, too), don’t have sex for anything other than procreation, otherwise he says that’s “mutual masturbation” or even “rape.” Thankfully they don’t have any daughters, but one son. At any rate, what a fucked-up view of sexual behavior that poor kid is getting.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      Jeff I grew up in exactly that you claim. Thats how I know what you say is BullShit. It’s nothing but shame & blame. It’s not all about love, its heavy handed totalitarianism. Being screamed at daily for not being good enough or pure enough (despite being a virgin). I was also treated as a violent criminal and an animal despite not having physically abusing anyone. Quite the contrary I was the reciepient of physical abuse despite being male, and some where who claimed to be christian. But far worse was the psychological abuse that created an atmosphere of fear, anxiety, revulsion & mistrust, isolation, self loathing, I could go on ad nasueum. I’ve seen with my own eyes indeed it is a part of rape culture, I’ve know women are accused of being “heathen temptresses” or worse yet having done nothing wrong. The word you live in is HELL not heaven and you are not the least bit christlike in either thought or actions.

    • Amanda Kazarian

      But a human being looses their worth if they don’t live by your standards, right? Not much better.

      • Jeff Cavanaugh

        @AK305:disqus Not at all. Christianity is very clear that *everyone* has inherent worth and dignity as people made in God’s image.

        • colleen2

          It amazes me that someone like Michelle Duggar is held up as a female role model for what the evangelical community calls “inherent worth and dignity”.

          • Ella Warnock

            “Inherent worth and dignity of the UTERUS.” You left out that part, cuz we all know what’s really important. ;-)

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          If that were true you wouldn’t see idiotic televangelists like John Hagee, Jack van Impe & myriad others hurling abuse at others for not being extreme enough while living in unbridled wealth while so many others who support them live in abysmal conditions. Nor would you see things like Pat Robertsons “operation blessing” sending missionaries to the camps during the Rwandan genoicde spouting bible verses at the victims of violence yet not lifting a finger to help.

          No Jeff what you say is not what you do. The actions of you and your ilk drown out your unconsionable propoganda.

    • http://leftcheek.wordpress.com/ Jasdye

      Wow, Jeff. That’s some major chutzpah. I grew up in EPC as well. And your memory must be horrible. Or, more likely, you just like to put women in their place. Money’s on the second.

      • Jeff Cavanaugh

        Jasdye I’m not sure why you’d question my memory or my own experiences. I’m just offering them as a bit of counterbalancing data. Just trying to show that not everyone Dianna’s pigeonholing in “evangelical purity culture” is as hypocritical, abusive, authoritarian, or sexist as she makes them out to be.

        • http://leftcheek.wordpress.com/ Jasdye

          Let’s see…
          You start off calling Dianna a “liar” and rejecting her own experiences, because your experiences are more valid and true, I suppose… But your memory and experiences are for you as a male. Perhaps you’re not aware of the experiences that young women are/were exposed to. You don’t seem the least bit concerned…

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          Jeff its your own line of crap that’s a textbook example of hipocrisy, abusive & totalitarian. Your warped ideas of purity in reality (where the rest of us live) are molestation culture.

    • Origami_Isopod

      Liar. Thanks for the sneer quotes around “rape culture,” too.

      • Jeff Cavanaugh

        @Origami_Isopod:disqus Just quote quotes, no sneering intended. Note that I used them for EPC, too, and that’s a label I’m actually sort of OK with.
        And let me again reiterate what I said above to Jennifer and CJ – I stand completely and wholeheartedly with those who’ve been the victims of rape and abuse, and against anyone who commits it, enables it, or excuses it. Period.

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          Ugh, really? do you even read or believe any of this garbage you force on the rest of us. It’s damn clear you hold all of humanity in contempt for merely wanting to live life unmolested.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      You be abstinent. I will save France.

      • CJ99

        on 2nd thought mind if I help you save france? no idea what we’re saving it from but anythings better than that other option ;P

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Must agree.

    • colleen2

      Note the contempt this Christian has for women who dare to complain about rape. What disgusting ‘men’ Christianity produces.

    • Jeff Cavanaugh

      Look, y’all, I’m not denying that some horrible abuse – physical, emotional, and spiritual – happens in the name of “purity” and biblical authority structures. I have friends who have suffered through that kind of abuse, and it’s awful.
      But. Dianna takes some of the most extreme cases and makes them seem like they’re the majority for evangelicals who care about purity and traditional, orthodox Christian teaching on sex. That is misrepresenting reality to the point of falsehood. “Purity balls” and the like aren’t part of mainstream evangelicalism, and never have been.
      @jenniferstarr:disqus @cj99willingness99gmailcom:disqus I’m sorry, and I’m grieved, for the abuses you suffered. There’s no excuse for that. Your abusers will eventually answer for their actions, to God if not in this life. I hope it might help to remember that we Christians follow a Lord who suffered horrible abuse, enduring it so that he could suffer with us and win redemption and healing for us.

      • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

        Neither Jennifer or I are comparing ourselves to Jesus, that’s just not realistic and with all the manipulation of truth through the preceeding 2000 years I know you have no idea of who he really was. Btw, the Diana isn’t manipulating anything, but you are. You forget I’ve survived the evangelical bullshit your so proud of. You’re string of denials of what it’s really like stinks of bullshit. If you had any real sympathy for victims of religion you wouldn’t be making excuses for or participating in it.

        Nuff said so find a pier & take a hike.

      • http://leftcheek.wordpress.com/ Jasdye

        You’re horrible. Just. Horrible.

      • osiote

        Fuck you.

  • HeilMary1

    Condoms avoid STDs and huge numbers of adults have extreme difficulty finding anyone SUITABLE who will marry them during their killer work schedules.

  • HeilMary1

    People who rely on abstinence only are unprepared when temptation takes over.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      What the religious fanatics call temptation I call being human. it’s not an artificial high like crystal meth or booze it’s something we’re all capable of as adults.

  • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

    There’s also a huge problem of rape. Not only for the physical & emotional violation of the victim & risk of rape it also sets up the victim for loads of shame n blame both of which can be devastating on their own.

  • Amanda Kazarian

    And what about those of us that see sex as just something people do, are we impure and not good enough for good ol’ wholesome christians? STDs and pregnancy are avoidable with the right education and access to contraception. Just like people are told to wear life vests when they go white water rafting. Its wear the life vest, not don’t go rafting at all.

    • CJ99

      This has stuck in my mind for a while. After having lived among christians for so long I would never marry 1 of them, nor any other religion. Religion was not created by god, it was created by corrupt humans as a means to control others, its a form of dictatorship.

  • Origami_Isopod

    “Biblical standards” – i.e., a man may offer his daughter up to a rapey crowd to protect his houseguests (Job), parents may stone their rebellious children to death, a rape victim must marry her rapist… the Wholly Buy-Bull is nothing but sociopathic garbage.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Jesus did not say much about sexuality. I will never marry again. Why buy the whole pig when all you want is 7 ounces of sausage.

    • HeilMary1

      LOL!

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Abstinence fails more than birth control. Catholic priests get paid pretty well for being abstinent. It is part of their job description. How is that working out for them?

  • Arekushieru

    You missed the part where I said ‘in practice’… amirite?

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I watched it. Woman as twenty dollar bill? It is the same old Catholic bullshit deodorized. I cannot live in Catholic world. I tried. Oh how I tried. Catholic sexual pedagogy did nothing but make my fertility and sexuality a burden. And its expression a sin. And a shame.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      thats no surprise to me, christans of all flavours regard being human as being an evil sinner. They even regard newborns as being inherently sinful and filled with guilt.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I do not think Christians are alone in that. Rather than being a religious trait, I think this thinking is authoritarian and it finds its expression in religion readily and other areas of our lives.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      grzy (crazy?) idea still stink to me.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        So close your legs.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    Abstinence does not equal purity. Abstinence is just abstinence. Where did Jesus give sexual instructions?

  • Arekushieru

    Yeah, you do have reading comprehension issues. If someone stops taking
    birth control at intermittent periods they are no longer practicing
    birth control, but this is often taken into consideration when
    calculating perfect use of birth control. Ooops.

  • RevSpinnaker

    If not for the pill, this would be a common practice. I think these ancient social mores were designed to curb unwanted pregnancy not “control women.” Anthropologist Margaret Meade found tribes where adolescent boys were taught to avert their eyes when passing girls their own age.

    • goatini

      Wrong – these “ancient social mores” were **completely** designed to control females, as chattel breeding livestock property of males. FACT.

      • RevSpinnaker

        Any citations on that?

        • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

          yeah its called all of recorded history. learn to read then start doing so before continuing to spew idiocy.

    • fiona64

      Citation needed, since your statement flies in the face of everything I learned as an anthropology major. Thanks in advance.

    • Origami_Isopod

      You made the positive assertion; it’s your job to provide citations on it. Also I’ll listen to people trained in anthropology any day over someone with “rev.” before their name. Science over superstition.

      • CJ99

        Perhaps we need a new word for what these fanatics believe. I think STUPIDSTITION covers it nicely.

  • http://www.facebook.com/judith.randall.50 Judith Randall

    Two things: that they shop at a facist store, and that ring is the nicest piece of jewelry she owns. Wow. Oh, and a third thing: she still wears it. Couldn’t read article, too complicated, ergo, don’t know what her religious and political views are.

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      While mal wart is the the corporate douche nozzle of the corporate world (apologies in advance if any reglars are offended). Your commentary makes little sense, could be nicest jewelry if she doesn’t have much, not all women are tammy faye baker or rexella van impe (thank gawd for that) and regard such things as no more than shiney rocks. Still wearing it she explained easily enough as she did her views. Since you have a problem with it then the problem is yours not hers.

    • expect_resistance

      Then why are you commenting?

  • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

    Not meaning to be overly offense but is every1 here being too subtle? try asking Mary & Joseph, yeah those 2 biblical characters. If they where here today they’d tell you how well abstinance works as pregnancy prevention.

  • fiona64

    At my college, we were taught in a bioethics class the idea that in
    “real rape” women’s bodies shut the whole thing down… somehow.

    How absurd and embarrassing for your college …

  • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

    I’ve actually heard members of the lunatic fringe say that women who are raped can naturally resist getting pregnant. Clearly a total lie. Can’t imagine the text for that course coming on anything other than toilet paper.

  • OldMexicanBlog

    “Purity culture, in the evangelical world, is nothing more than an elaborate form of rape culture.”
    Even if the woman freely chooses not to engage in sexual encounters until marriage? Is she being culturally raped by her own choice?

    • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

      Having grown up surrounded by evangelical extremism I can tell you the choice isn’t voluntary, its forced which is the quintessential definition of rape.

    • Origami_Isopod

      You do not understand how inculturation works.

  • cj99.willingness99@gmail.com

    “How is denying ones desire, desirable?”

    good way of putting it. too often things surrounding intimacy / love are looked on as negative. I view it as a natural part of being a person. Not everyone experiences these things the same way and people should be able to make smart decisions for themselves, not have it made for them out of fear or prejudice.

    • Arekushieru

      SO very well put, CJ! And, you’re right, that’s why I loved the way tofu put it, too. “How is denying ones desire, desirable” DOES indicate that not everyone desires sex. In order to *deny* a thing, after all, one would have to actually FEEL that thing. So, that poster was being very inclusive from the get-go.

  • Riley

    Is this spun intentionally in the female direction? Male purity is regarded as highly as female among Christians, and the husband is told that his body likewise belongs to his wife. 1 Corinthians 7. This was also my experience growing up in evangelicalism. Male sexual abstinence before marriage was highly valued.

  • Dana

    What gets me about evangelical culture around marriage is that even if you do save yourself for marriage, you are not going to want to get pregnant all the time. Biologically speaking, we need a rest period of at least two and preferably more like four years between children. Our bodies simply cannot handle the nutritional burden. This is why there are measurable differences, on average, in health status and intelligence between the firstborn child and younger children. Even when women do wait a few years they don’t always take the kind of care of themselves that would get them fully ready for that next child. Especially nowadays when so many people are eating just well enough to stay fertile but not well enough that they aren’t halfway to a deficiency disease.

    The way I see it, if a religion really is from God (and I’m not going to argue over whether God exists because I can’t honestly answer that question, and neither can anyone else), it ought to reflect biological reality. Any “faith” that calls for a woman to have a baby a year, whether in wedlock or not, is a false faith because it denies biological reality. If there is a God, God did not set down laws of nature and then expect us to flaunt them and still be healthy, happy, sane, and whole. And no God worth His salt would make an entire species and then expect it to destroy itself. ESPECIALLY a species meant to be made in His image.

    • osiote

      Not surprisingly, these religious morons believe that the ‘female body was made to have babies’ (regardless of age) and therefore, being pregnant all the time is totes ‘natural’ and ‘healthy’.

      Ignorant asshats.

      • CJ99

        yet they ignore the fact that any form of cancer, virus, heart disease or other medical conditions are natural but still very undesirable.

        • Quis ut Deus

          Yes, but they like to say that pregnancy gives the gift of life, whereas cancer etc. are natural processes that destroy life.

  • Origami_Isopod

    Wow, you’re ignorant AND misogynist.

    • cvxxx

      Whee is your rebuttal? Oh you don’t have one! Have not read your state laws have you?

  • Origami_Isopod

    You don’t understand the main point of the article. Stop concern trolling.

  • CJ99

    its also one of the worst insults against men who do have self control, those who don’t abuse women. I may only speak for myself but I’m no violent psychopath or an animal.

  • CJ99

    Its little surprise that the same character of David while king had forced his neighbour into the military and sent into battle just so David could get it on with the mans wife. Such is the Antithesis of what the bible is supposedly about.

  • CJ99

    Riley that was incontinent commentary if ever I saw it.

  • Nancy Knowles

    Nice selective sourcing. Try reading scripture and note ceremonial scripts. There is a difference.

    • CJ99

      Nope wrong again Nancy Knowles not. its not selectivity, its called fact. That wedding I attended was real and you were definately NOT there! so please do the world a favour & stop blowing hot air out your butt. And I’ll have you know I have read scripture, loads of it is ungodly, not only holding humanity but god himself in contempt much the same way you do.

  • CJ99

    Unlike you whose lack of understanding debauches reality.

  • expect_resistance

    Seriously? Oh please, there is a lot of misogyny in the bible.

    MATTHEW
    5:32 Husband can divorce wife for adultery. Can wife divorce husband for the same?
    CH 25 Sexist tale of ten virgins.

    LUKE
    2:22 Mary must be purified after birth of Jesus.
    2:49 Jesus rebukes his mother.

    I CORINTHIANS
    11:2-10… Woman created for man.
    14:34 Women must be silent in churches.

    EPHESIANS
    5:22-24 Wives must submit to husbands in everything.

    COLOSSIANS
    3:18 Wives submit to husbands.
    3:22 Slaves must obey masters in everything.

    I TIMOTHY
    2:11-15 Woman must not have authority – she must be silent. Women can be saved with childbearing.
    5:9-10 Widows should be faithful to husband and must wash saints’ feet.

    1 PETER
    2:18 Slaves submit to masters, even masters who are harsh.
    3:1 Wives submit.
    3:5-6 Sarah calls husband master.

  • expect_resistance

    WTF? “It is for her protection……” How do you not see this as misogynistic? This is not an example of an equal relationship.

  • bevtoastily

    I’m gonna vomit.

    • expect_resistance

      Me too. No kidding.

  • CJ99

    utter bollocks, Being silent in church isn’t the same as “not teaching” its nothing other than being silent. its also completely unjustified, women can be equail in intellect & wisdom as men are. In the real world (try it sometime) there are women who understand things better than men. Probly won’t have to go far to find a bunch who are smarter than I am. You however are not 1 such person.

  • CJ99

    You do pretty good with english anyways, better than some of us who have it as a 1st language and take it for granted. I feel the same way about much of what you say Especially about the emotional connection being needed not just physical only. Sex when part of love isn’t dirty and I don’t regard formal rules bast marriage as mandatory. My only difference is that what I’ve seen of “good christians” makes me want to scream NOOOOOO & run as fast as my legs will carry me.

    • Éowyn

      :D What I meant by “good Christian” is what most people would see as the ideal of a Christian girl – nice, polite, good grades, no alcohol or cigarettes, no partys every weekend, plenty of after school activities, musical instruments and so on…
      Which is of course, ridiculous, but I am like that naturally, so I guess it’s alright :D

      But it always makes me feel that, since I do these things just because I want to and I feel that way, not because a “HOLY” book (which was written by PEOPLE but whatever) told me to, aren’t I better than those people who just follow rules, however godlike?

  • Jennifer Starr

    You’ve made it abundantly clear that you’re pretty ignorant of what Sandra Fluke actually testified about. Not that I’m surprised by your ignorance.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Okay. Let’s go over the facts. Sandra Fluke testified before congress about friends of hers with health conditions that required birth control, who had trouble with the cost of the contraception. She did not talk about her sex life. She did not demand contraception for herself. In fact, she didn’t even state whether or not she herself used contraception. Of course if you listened to Rush Limbaugh and the slander by the conservative media, you might not know that, but these are the facts. Are we clear?

  • HF

    Catholicism and evangelical Christianity are two very, VERY different things.

  • CJ99

    Looks like your deliberately trying to confuse yourself with another long time user of this site. Not that anyone is the least bit fooled.

  • corruptintenz

    Everyone needs data in order to make effective decisions. You need it too, if you wish to be effective. Deciding based on the shrieks and hand-wringing of the reptile brain is a one way ticket to continuing the status quo. It is also an invitation to those equally as passionate, but more disciplined, to exploit you.

    • CJ99

      Pseudo Jennifer the impersonator doesn’t want to make effective decisions, nor does she wish anyone else to. She wants every1 doing and thinking as she & her ilk want.

      • Jennifer

        Gosh you’re right, I want to believe women rape men very often and most abortions kill small, viable children! There’s my dream.

        • CJ99

          No the word that describes you is delusional. That’s the best your gonna get too. If he was around George Carlin could confirm that.

  • Jennifer Starr

    Corry, my name is Jennifer.

    • Jennifer

      Okay then, Jennifer; I’m used to people calling me by my last name on Amazon, but whichever you prefer. I’m not at all fond of Limbaugh.

      • CJ99

        Then why do you keep repeating his insolent bullshit?

  • expect_resistance

    I think I get what you’re saying. Yes, the bible is used by the Christian patriarchy to subordinate women. We need to look at who approved what canons make up the bible. I don’t any women were part of this group.

    I went to Catholic school K-12, attended catechism classes, and studied Christian theology in college. I’m not an expert on the subject of Christian theology, but I am knowledgeable about the topic. I also studied under feminist Christian theologian Rita Nakashima Brock. I understand there are sexist traditions within the Christian religion as there are in other religions influenced by patriarchy. Feminist Christian theologians work against sexism within the church and I applaud their arduous work.

    • Jennifer

      Exactly. There’s usually a difference between a feminist and an egalitarian, but what egals want is true equality, and many don’t even believe in a ladder-structure of authority in the church.

  • CJ99

    Because your a blatant liar as evidenced by your string of lies here. Btw you are trying to justify yourself and quite uncessfully with your silly litany of idiocy. On top of that your so incredibly ignorant you get the authours name wrong repeeatedly. You are 1 sick invidual in desparate need of psychiatric care.

  • CJ99

    It’s less backlash than absurdly silly propaganda. One commenter said “good luck with your law career”. If that’s the type of legal argument in the article (go ahead and read for yourselves every1) than this “law student” should be flunked out long before graduation, if not then disbarred soon after. I haven’t seen such idiotic tripe since those over the top WW2 propaganda films. It’s just so over the top hysterical. I know people think that way but still can’t conceive how they fool themselves with such ineptitude.

    NOTE: pretty clear who fed the article here to that silly bunch of fundamentalists too.

  • CJ99

    anyone, especially you faux jennifer does NOT get to lecture anybody else on how to do research. One last point (yet again): stop pretending to be a woman!

  • CJ99

    No, clearly you do not read what others write, nor do you even read your own illiterate drivel berating women to “keep silent” is just that, utter silence nothing else. And the part being refferred to was never applied to men in that text and theres nothing devine about it, never has been. the only “wisdom” coming from you is the hot air you so pervasively emit from your trollish butt.

  • Pubilius

    I grew up Southern Baptist, now looking back, it was almost a cult of virginity… and there was no place for a gay person like me. It was a harmful, destructive culture for everyone but straight, white, males. It has taken me many years to get over the harm done to me and the people I love… moving to another denomination and having a queer theological understanding of the Bible, as well as an entirely different understanding of Jesus (the radical, subversive) has made a difference.

    • CJ99

      Regardless of a persons orientation I have no doubt any modern church would either do Jesus serious harm or die trying as what they represent is the violent polar opposite of who he was.

      • Pubilius

        Yes, many modern churches, but there are some people and congregations inside of traditional churches that do indeed follow Jesus (and many outside of it as well). Many deacons and priests/elders who never make the news (and when they do, they are uncomfortable as it detracts from their mission and Jesus). Too often, they’re voices in the wilderness offering prophetic witness to the few who listen, but they’re armed with truth– I think of MLK and more recently the UMC’s own Bishop Talbert, whom the UMC stones for the latter. And the UMC’s Rev. Lorenza Smith for an example of the former.

        • CJ99

          I love how you dance around the truth, well not really. You know full well that the churches you describe are modern churches, none of which you cited existed 2 millenia ago and in fact the ones you describe as traditional are among the worst examples of misogyny & other abuses. Fact is what you describe is where such abusive behaviours have originated in modern times. What you failed to realize is you’ve already completely contradicted your own previous statement.

  • Quis ut Deus

    Just popping by to point out that you’re still a fucktard.

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