‘Abortion Is Like Slavery’ and Other Offensive Anti-Choice Analogies


Just when you think anti-choice protesters have run out of ways to be as morally bankrupt as they are self-righteous and judgmental, they will surprise you. Anti-choicers in Albuquerque, New Mexico have taken to protesting the Holocaust museum there, furious that the museum disagrees with the anti-choice claim that women who say no to pregnancy are the moral equivalent of people who rounded up two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe and killed them in cold blood. It’s particularly mind-bending in this case, because their ire is focused on a nearby clinic that does abortions after 28 weeks for women whose only other choice is usually giving birth to babies that will be in terrible pain or die shortly after birth—or both—meaning that they’re equating the Holocaust not just with women who commit the “sin” of having sex without wanting to get pregnant, but women who wanted to have a baby, but couldn’t. At a certain point, you start to wonder if they’re not just thinking you’re a Nazi by being born female.

But sadly, this kind of offensive and poorly reasoned analogy is just par for the course for anti-choicers, who are faced with the tough dilemma of trying to get other people to be as angry as they are that women continue to make their sexual and reproductive choices for themselves. The list of things anti-choicers claim abortion and contraception are like but are most definitely not like is long indeed. Here are just a few of the more offensive analogies.

Contraceptionand non-procreative sex in generalis like an addictive drug. A classic in the “offensive analogies” genre, the American Life League (ALL) put out a video comparing the desire to have sex with drug addiction. Yes, right down to the way that the drug addict had no craving for the drug prior to using it. ALL really does seem to think that if we didn’t teach safer sex, young people would have no desire to dabble in that sex stuff.

Beyond just the offensiveness of equating normal human desire for sex with a serious medical condition that affects real people, the analogy doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. It’s not like having a drug addiction suddenly becomes healthy once you get married and start having kids, but even anti-choicers—at least officially, anyway—claim to believe that sex is healthy in the marriage and kids context.

Abortion is like slavery. This one managed to work its way all the way up to a presidential debate, but that doesn’t make it one iota less racist or offensive. As with the Holocaust analogy, all this really does is make it clear how little regard for the lives of Jews and Black people anti-choicers have. When someone like Mike Huckabee goes on and on about how abortion is like slavery, all I can hear is that they believe that this weird-looking mindless embryo the size of a kidney bean means more to them than the full human beings who lived and suffered—and died—for centuries under American slavery. Considering how nearly all anti-choicers claim they don’t want to throw women in jail for abortion, it follows that they’re implying that enslaving other human beings is not a punishable offense. It’s also offensive because it’s trotted out in no small part to subtly hint to anti-choice followers that, like slavery, abortion is something worth fighting a war over—a claim that helps justify violence against providers.

And, as usual, if you give the analogy a moment’s thought, it makes no kind of sense. Slavery was an institution of forcing people into lifelong service without pay. The embryos in question aren’t being forced to work or having their liberty stripped of them. Also, the slave-owning states of the past are far more likely to be the abortion-restricting ones of now, making the bad faith of this analogy even more obvious.

Legal abortion is like assault. In a desperate bid to make it seem like they’re protecting the women whose rights they’re actually attacking, anti-choicers will often describe abortion like it’s an assault on a woman’s body. Indeed, they claim over and over that it’s like rape, because there’s no level of offensiveness to which they won’t stoop. Women who get abortions are painted as unwilling participants who just magically showed up in a doctor’s office and were frog-marched through the process. Abortion is often described in gruesome detail to make it sound as painful and violent as possible—as if childbirth were a gentle, bloodless breeze whistling through your hair or something. For actual victims of rape and assault, hearing your ordeal compared to a willingly sought out medical procedure is beyond deplorable and offensive.

It’s also dumb. Both because abortion is safer than childbirth, and first trimester abortions are over pretty quickly, whereas even the easiest childbirth is a whole lot of work and exhaustion. But where this analogy really breaks down is over the issue of consent. Assault and rape are situations where someone else forcibly inflicts themselves on your body and takes your control away. Abortion is the opposite for women who choose it—an opportunity to gain control over your body and its processes. It’s abortion bans that are about taking away a woman’s control over her body. Indeed, the same logic—that women exist to be used by other people and not for their own purposes—underpins both rape apologetics and abortion bans. No wonder so many anti-choicers tend to take a cavalier attitude when it comes to actual rape.

Bad analogies are tempting, particularly for those who have bad arguments: It’s a way to bolster your sense of self-righteousness and distract from the problems with your point of view. Bad, offensive analogies proliferate on the anti-choice side because their actual arguments are pretty weak and just thin cover for their hostility towards women’s growing power. But that doesn’t make them excusable. The opposite, really—if you can’t make your argument without leaning on offensive analogies, it’s time to pack it in and go home.

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  • DivineWordRadio

    Sorry but you are wrong. Abortion is like slavery. In both instances, the value of the life of a person is minimized, and controlled by another.

    • goatini

      YOU are wrong – and I am NOT sorry.

      Women with unwanted pregnancies who are coerced or otherwise forced to gestate an unwanted pregnancy to term, against the women’s specific will and wishes, ARE GESTATIONAL SLAVES. And the UN has deemed this misogynistic crime of the imposition of slavery upon living, breathing females as cruel and inhuman punishment.

      In ALL instances in which the radical theocratic misogynistic forced-birthers attempt to interfere with and abrogate the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens, the ACTUAL value of the ACTUAL life of the only ACTUAL person in the equation – the living, breathing WOMAN – IS minimized, and IS controlled by another against the woman’s rights, will and wishes.

      • DivineWordRadio

        That’s a matter of opinion as to whether you are wrong, or sorry.

        Most women who have abortions are coerced into them by boyfriends, husbands, parents, and employers. They are sex toys, and no longer women. And the UN’s determination is doubtful, and meaningless.

        There are two people, whether you like it or not. It is easier on the conscience to use euphemisms rather than truth. You are contending that, one minute before birth, an unborn child has no value. You are wrong, and misogynistic towards those female babies you favor killing.

        • goatini

          Again, WRONG. And the “sorry” individual here would be YOU, as per the Oxford Dictionary definition, “unpleasant and regrettable, especially on account of incompetence or misbehavior”.

          The vast majority of American women who obtain safe, legal pregnancy terminations make their own decisions to do so, for their own reasons – NONE of which are ANY of YOUR business. Your insulting, demeaning, invalid premise proves that all you consider females capable of is chattel property breeding livestock status, incapable of self-agency and of autonomous decision making.

          Persons are citizens, and citizens’ rights accrue AT BIRTH.

          And there are NO “babies” involved, ever, in a safe, legal pregnancy termination. All babies, ever, have already been born.

          It is vile, putrid, ugly, medieval misogyny that strips a living, breathing female US citizen of her civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy in legal healthcare decisions and to personal bodily autonomy, upon the instant that fertilization occurs. But you think that your vicious lies and woman-hatred justifies YOUR usage of invalid euphemisms like “murder”, “baby”, and “person”, where none of these exist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            you have the right to be wrong. And, apparently, to be sorry.

            How do you measure that “the vast majority” of women fall into this category? And if they do, how do they not put their own wishes ahead of the life of another? And yes, taking the life of another is my business. Would you say that a slave is owned by its owner, and the owner can do as he or she pleases, and that it is none of your business what the owner does? It is you premise that is insulting, and demeaning and invalid. What my premise proves is that I see value in women and in men. I believe that women can act responsibly, and do not have to take the life of their children.

            Slaves were not citizens, and had no citizen’s rights, even at birth.

            And as much as you wish it wasn’t the case, or want to lie about it, there is a child killed with an abortion.

            Let’s see if we have any common ground. Should a woman have the right to “terminate” (with prejudice) her offspring, 1 minute before delivery occurs? Should she have the right for 5 days after the child’s birth? Why or why not?

            You name call, but give no reasoned arguments, except it is the law. Prior to 1973, it was against the law. Does that mean that you would then be on the side of opposing abortion, because the law went the other way?

            There is no woman hatred here, but there is fear in your accusations. Let’s start with the facts.

          • Valde

            Antebellum slave women were forced to gestate pregnancies against their will.

            These women aborted their pregnancies whenever possible.

            I bet you think they were more evil than the slaveowners who raped and impregnated them, don’t you?

          • goatini

            Since there are no “children” involved in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal pregnancy termination – because ALL children, everywhere, have already been born – that flawed misogynistic premise is completely invalid.

            Since forcing a female US citizen with an unwanted pregnancy to gestate to term IS gestational slavery, the flawed “slave” analogy used by the forced-birthers is misogynistic and completely invalid.

            Let’s see if we have any common ground: Are the civil, human and Constitutional rights of a female US citizen erased at the instant of fertilization? Moreover, should ALL females between menarche and menopause be considered, at all times, as putatively pregnant, and therefore subject to active discrimination and abrogation of civil, human and Constitutional rights?

            Your silly red herrings are just nonsense that your cult leaders have provided you with to make your specious, fallacious “arguments” against the essential dignity and personhood of living, breathing female US citizens. I’ve read them all, and they all rely on maliciously deliberate lies and maliciously deliberate misinformation, specifically intended to objectivize, denigrate, and disempower female US citizens via radical fundamentalist theocratic cult dogma and misogynistic hate speech.

            If a woman’s life is threatened by a fetus “1 minute before delivery occurs”, then of course the woman’s life should be saved – for the sake of her spouse and the sake of her actually living, breathing children. You prove you’re just slinging red herrings, because NO municipality in the United States allows a voluntary safe, legal termination “1 minute before delivery occurs. So, nothing to argue there.

            And as for “5 days after the child’s birth”, evidently you’re overreaching in preparation for screeching some red herring nonsense about Peter Singer – whose own family, incidentally, actually WERE victims of genocide – to attempt to tie a single theorist with a controversial theory (the exercise of which also is supported by NO municipality in the United States) to those who stand against the exploitation of female US citizens as chattel property breeding livestock, and who stand for the protection of the exercise by female US citizens of their civil, human and Constitutional rights.

            All you have are lies and misogyny. You have NOTHING.

          • Valde

            This kid is unbelievable. All emotion, and no actual arguments other than ‘women are selfish’

          • Ella Warnock

            But, but . . . “women are selfish” IS biological! So that must mean it’s scientific !!!11eleventy1!!!

          • fiona64

            OMGSELFISHWTFBBQ! ;-)

          • Valde

            Since MY is ignoring me, please ask her a simple question. I am curious as to what she will say.

            I am sure you have heard this thought experiment – what if embryos could be safely removed from women and put into artificial wombs – would she accept that?

            Another variation, what if embryos could be removed from women, and simply put on ice – where they are safe – at least, according to her. As long as no one is actively killing them, right?

            Because how much of it is wanting ‘babies to live’ vs. punishing women for having sex. I also wonder what harveydude, carl seaton and our own DWR here would way. Hmm.

            BTW, it pisses me off that we keep getting in trouble for misbehaviour, while miss goody two shoes keeps making *inflammatory* statements, and refuses to argue in good faith. And no one says a word to her about it.

          • fiona64

            Someone’s asked her that, and she’s never responded.

            I’m now calling out her inflammatory stuff … and flagging it.

          • Valde

            Yeah, didn’t respond.What a shocker that is!

            Feminerd had her on the ropes there for a bit, when my admitted that she should be *morally* obligated to be used as a life support for 9 months for her born daughter – even if it cost her her job, her health etc.

            She was then asked if she should be *legally* obligated to be used as life support aaand…no answer!

            Every time things get tough she refuses to respond.

            And I too am flagging every time she breaks that rule we talked about.

          • Ella Warnock

            “Prior to 1973, it was against the law”

            Prior to 1973, it was viewed with a wink and a nod. And was available in safe conditions if one had the money or could travel. Your propaganda has not ever proved to be particularly influential on the demographic of women with resources.

          • fiona64

            Should a woman have the right to “terminate” (with prejudice) her
            offspring, 1 minute before delivery occurs? Should she have the right
            for 5 days after the child’s birth? Why or why not?

            What an asinine straw man. No woman is lying there in full labor demanding a “mulligan” on the whole thing … and, as already been established, born entities have rights.

            SO much ignorance. Abortion was only illegal for about 90 years in this country, and in no small part because *men* didn’t like the fact that female midwives were performing abortions and making money as a result.

          • HeilMary1

            The fact is you bullied your brood mare into childbirth death. You murdered her with your penis.

          • smartmouth

            you make me literally sick to my stomach. to think that there are assholes like you who are in postitions where some poor sod might listen to you makes me want to puke. fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. die soon and painfully. i have not encountered such a vile piece of shit as you before. congratulations, you win most evil, demented, perverted shit-for-brains on the internet. fuck you. i regret that you are allowed oxygen.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Thank you for sharing how low you really are. God bless.

        • fiona64

          Most women who have abortions are coerced into them by boyfriends, husbands, parents, and employers.

          Citation *really* needed.

        • colleen2

          Most women who have abortions are coerced into them by boyfriends,
          husbands, parents, and employers.

          That is simply not true. It is a lie. The fact of the matter is that most women want to have children and almost all women want to be able to say when and how many children we have. Michelle Duggar and the human doormat who married Mr Scalia are anomalies.

          They are sex toys, and no longer
          women.

          oh, come on. Even for a troll that’s lame. What are you, 12?

          • DivineWordRadio

            I agree that most women want to have children, and would like to say when and how many they have. That does not mean that women should have the right to kill a child out of convenience.

            However, those women aren’t the ones I’m talking about. In a national study of women, 64% of those who aborted felt pressured to do so by others, VM Rue et. al., “Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16 (2004).

            I know the truth hurts sometimes.

          • Valde

            Pregnancy is not a state of wellness, and a woman has the right to not have her body used against her will.

          • goatini

            “…particularly for those women **who have a history of adverse childhood events and prior traumata**.

            “Study limitations preclude drawing definitive conclusions”

            So much for the BS “study”.

          • colleen2

            so much for right wing Christian ‘truth’. always a lie

          • Ella Warnock

            It doesn’t hurt, so it must not be the truth, eh?

          • fiona64

            Let’s look at your source, shall we? I found the abstract here: http://www dot ncbi dot nlm dot nih dot gov/pubmed/15448616

            Let’s look at the hypothesis with which they started (ibid.): Individual and situational risk factors associated with negative
            postabortion psychological sequelae have been identified, but the degree of posttraumatic stress reactions and the effects of culture are largely unknown.

            The study was conducted by the “Institute for Pregnancy Loss.” That’s this organization: http://www dot standapart dot org/index.php?route=common/home

            Quote: A central goal of APART is to inform and reframe public conversations about the mental health risks of abortion based on the views of the women and men most profoundly affected, and to appropriately weight these individuals’ interests and needs in shaping compassionate policies and effective post-abortion intervention.

            In short, they’re an anti-choice organization that is trying to prove something that has already been demonstrated not to exist: a wide-spread risk of mental health issues post-abortion.

            So yeah. The truth hurts. Your primary source documentation is invalid.

          • Valde

            BTW I think RHRC will let you post links now.

          • colleen2

            The truth certainly appears to hurt you. That study does not show what you claim it shows. Here are the :

            RESULTS:

            Overall, the findings here indicated that American
            women were more negatively influenced by their abortion experiences than
            Russian women. While 65% of American women and 13.1% of Russian women
            experienced multiple symptoms of increased arousal, re-experiencing and
            avoidance associated with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), 14.3% of
            American and 0.9% of Russian women met the full diagnostic criteria for
            PTSD. Russian women had significantly higher scores on the TSI Belief
            Scale than American women, indicating more disruption of cognitive
            schemas. In this sample, American women were considerably more likely to
            have experienced childhood and adult traumatic experiences than Russian
            women. Predictors of positive and negative outcomes associated with
            abortion differed across the two cultures.

            CONCLUSIONS:

            Posttraumatic
            stress reactions were found to be associated with abortion. Consistent
            with previous research, the data here suggest abortion can increase
            stress and decrease coping abilities, particularly for those women who
            have a history of adverse childhood events and prior traumata. Study
            limitations preclude drawing definitive conclusions, but the findings do
            suggest additional cross-cultural research is warranted.

            did you think that throwing out some random study that does not even address the conclusion you claim would grant you credibility?

          • HeilMary1

            You forced a killer pregnancy on your wife.

        • Valde

          My god you are an ignorant fuckwit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            The person who uses profanity wants to call me ignorant. I doubt you know what the word means.

          • Valde

            Your ignorance is showing by the fact that you assume profanity is a show of ignorance.

            You don’t know the first thing about pregnancy and how it affects a woman’s body, you assume that women were made to have babies, and you are so stupid that you disrespect millions of actual living sentient people who were brutally murdered by comparing their genocide to abortion.

            YOU are the ignorant one, sweetie.

          • Ella Warnock

            ((eye roll))

          • fiona64

            You want to be a dictator over women’s biology and you start pearl-clutching over a four-letter word? Give me a goddamned break.

          • HeilMary1

            That’s you because YOU murdered your wife with a fetus.

        • Ella Warnock

          “misogynistic towards those female babies you favor killing”

          Oh, come now. You’re not really thinking that old chestnut is going to be effective, are you?

        • expect_resistance

          You are delusional. Women are not chattel or broodmares for the Catholic Church, for men, for anyone. As a woman, I am not obligated to reproduce. I am not obligated to be “ladylike” to conform to the gender roles of the church or society. You are clearly not dealing with reality. We are not living in the dark ages, which you think never existed. We are not living in the 1950s. We are not in the “Father Knows Best” world.

        • HeilMary1

          You coerced your wife into childbirth death. Why didn’t YOU practice abstinence instead of murdering her?

        • smartmouth

          you’re a lying sack of shit

    • fiona64

      A fetus is not a person. You, OTOH, are devaluing the liberty of a born, sapient, sentient woman by erasing her from the picture in order to afford rights to *potential* person.

    • Valde

      And to you, a woman is nothing more than livestock. She is a walking incubator for her uterus.

      • DivineWordRadio

        And you are wrong. Women don’t have to have children. They have a choice. Don’t have sex. The two go hand in hand.

        • Valde

          No, they do not.

          Tell me, do you believe that rape victims should be forced to give birth too? Or just dirty s1uts who choose to have sex?

          And btw, when a woman uses contraception, she is most definitely *not* consenting to pregnancy.

        • goatini

          Translation: Females with personal agency and personal bodily autonomy, who engage in sexual congress outside of Church-approved male ownership for the express purpose of breeding, should be criminalized.

        • Ella Warnock

          Ah ah ah, not so fast there, sparky. Twenty-six married years of non-reproductive sex over here. Clearly they do not necessarily go hand in hand at all.

        • Amanda Kazarian

          Why must women be forever single and without a sex life just because they don’t want kids? Some married women don’t want kids and will use contraception to keep it that way, deal with it.

        • Jennifer Starr

          What about married couples who don’t wish to have any more children or who don’t wish to have children, period? Your particular church may be against contraception, but that’s not true of every church, and many people choose not to follow any church at all and that is their right. You have the right to follow your own religion and the laws of your religion. You have the right to have any size family you wish. What you do not have is the right to demand that everyone else follow your particular laws just so you can feel comfortable and/or validated.

        • fiona64

          Women don’t have to have children. They have a choice. Don’t have sex.

          Wow. That’s a highly original argument. No anti-choicer has ever said that women who don’t want babies should keep their legs together.

          Oh, wait …

          • HeilMary1

            He’s exempted himself from the sexual abstinence though! Hence, the dead wife! Too bad he didn’t die instead! What a waste of human flesh Gene Church is.

        • HeilMary1

          Then YOU should be in jail for having killer sex with your first wife, Blue Beard!

        • smartmouth

          why the hell should a woman be forced to give up the most natural thing in the world: a loving, healthy act? fuck you and your idea that women are your property. fuck you with your idea that if a woman wants 2 children she should have sex twice in her life. fuck you with your prehistoric imaginary sky fairy talk. fuck you with a barbed wire dildo. just fuck you.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Well we all see how reasoned and compassionate you are. God bless.

          • smartmouth

            fuck you. and save your stupid “god blessa” for your soul. you’re gonna need it. you are vile.

          • DivineWordRadio

            God bless.

          • Ella Warnock

            Hmmm. Saying “god bless” when you don’t really mean it could be construed as taking the lord’s name in vain.

            But I’m sure you’d never do anything like that.

            [[[anticipating your subsequent downvote]]]

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’m leaving. I don’t consider saying “God Bless” to people who are mean spirited, as taking His name in vain. After all, Jesus asked for the same of those who were crucifying Him.

          • fiona64

            So now you compare yourself to Jesus.

            Please, seek help for your delusions. I really do feel sorry for you.

    • Ella Warnock

      Well, you’re half right; so that’s something, I guess.

      The value of the life of the woman is minimized, and controlled by another. Yes, this.

    • HeilMary1

      You devalued your wife when you murdered her by pregnancy.

  • DivineWordRadio

    That of course leaves out, not what it is like, but what it is–the murder of an innocent.

    • goatini

      Fetuses, by definition, cannot be innocent. Innocence requires sentience.

      Safe, LEGAL pregnancy termination is not “murder”. It’s LEGAL. Did I mention it’s completely LEGAL?

      There are theocratic nations in which you would be completely free to treat females like chattel property breeding livestock. The United States of America is NOT one of those nations.

      • DivineWordRadio

        Not true. One cannot have sentience and be innocent, because guilt requires sentience.

        Yes, abortion is murder, no matter what you call it. And, to continue the earlier point, slavery was also legal (putting it in all caps doesn’t make it any more significant).

        The United States is not a nation that has women treated like chattel, despite that until 1973 abortion was illegal here too. Your point does little to advance your position.

        • goatini

          WRONG again. The capacity for innocence AND guilt is available ONLY to the sentient.

          YOU are the one advocating FOR SLAVERY – to force innocent female US citizens with unwanted pregnancies, who have committed NO crime, into a state of GESTATIONAL SLAVERY . YOU advocate for the restoration of slavery, and also to impose it ONLY upon females, SOLELY because they are females.

          During my own lifetime, American women could not obtain credit on their own. During my own lifetime, jobs could be advertised with gender bias, with managerial jobs and jobs with advancement under “MALE”, and low-level clerical and service work under “FEMALE”. During my own lifetime, employers could inquire in an interview and an application if a woman was married, pregnant, planning to be pregnant, and ask how many children she had. During my own lifetime, females could be legally paid less than males for the same work. During my own lifetime, females could be terminated for becoming pregnant. So I suspect you’re some teenager who knows nothing about actual history.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Wrong again. Where did you get this definition involving sentient beings? The baby is an innocent person. Period.

            You are the one advocating treating children as slaves. You will decide whether they live or die. They have committed no crime, and were conceived due to actions of the parents. The fact that you relate slavery to parenthood says a lot about the selfishness of a great many people,yourself included.

            As to women receiving credit or getting a job, I have no problem with this, and it has nothing to do with taking a human life, nor does it justify allowing a person to do so. It would appear that we both are in the same age range, so let’s quit resorting to euphemism and straw men and stick to the facts.

          • Valde

            A microscopic zygote is not an baby you ignorant fuckwit.

            The fact that you relate slavery to parenthood says a lot about the selfishness of a great many people,yourself included.

            Forced pregnancy IS slavery. In fact, it was a huge element of antebellum slavery. Women were traded like livestock, and every fetus that was produced made the slavers richer.

          • goatini

            The ONLY euphemisms and straw men here are those posited by DepravedWordRadio.

          • goatini

            DepravedWordRadio advocates for treating female US citizens as gestational slaves, forced to gestate any and all pregnancies, whether wanted or not, to term, against the specific will and wishes of those women. These innocent female US citizens have committed NO crime, and DepravedWord Radio advocates for the active and malicious violation of the essential personhood and dignity that EVERY woman should enjoy, of choosing FOR HERSELF when, where, how, why, and with whom to start or grow her family.

            DepravedWordRadio advocates that the MOST important decisions that a woman can ever make in her life be left to random events of fertilization, followed by criminalization, stigmatization, and gestational slavery – instead of those crucial decisions having a JOYFUL result in wanted and planned children.

            DepravedWordRadio advocates that females should be punished, and even left to perish due to depraved indifference, for exercising the personal agency and autonomy to choose to engage in sexual congress, either outside of Church-approved male ownership for breeding purposes – or for the sole purpose of nurturing, growing and protecting the intimate bond between husband and wife, without the intent of breeding until both parties have agreed that this is a mutually shared objective.

            And as for women receiving credit and getting a job, the examples I cited demonstrated the continued relegation of females to the status of chattel property livestock, even during the latter half of the 20th century.

          • Ella Warnock

            Selfishness also encompasses those who would insist that others live not as they wish, but as you wish. Contrary to popular belief, there’s plenty of selfishness to go around; and you’re not exempt from it by, allegedly, following Christ.

          • fiona64

            OMGSELFISHDEADBAYBEESWTFBBQ!

            Oops, wrong poster. For a minute I thought you were someone else who uses the same argument.

          • fiona64

            I’m sure you’re familiar with Oscar Wilde, who notably remarked that selfishness does not consist in living as you wish, but demanding that *others* live as you wish.

            You win the selfish crown today, sweetie.

          • HeilMary1

            You selfishly murdered your wife with a killer pregnancy and you lecture us against reproductive self-defense?!

          • HeilMary1

            He used pregnancy to murder his first brood mare.

        • goatini

          Moreover, the Roman Catholic Church has considered females to be nothing more than chattel property livestock for millennia, and still holds that untenable, misogynist position, despite such status now being illegal and discriminatory in the United States. And I say this as a Catholic of 60 years standing.

        • colleen2

          One cannot have sentience and be innocent

          So, when the Catholic priesthood engages in it’s open and obvious sexual fantasizing about innocent children that’s just an insincere compliment?

          • DivineWordRadio

            So you think this will make killing babies OK if we joke about it?

            Even your twisted logic doesn’t work here.

          • fiona64

            Who said she was fantasizing? The RCC covered up child molestation by priests for *decades.* It was a major reason why the previous pope resigned — by his own admission. So, no concern about the kiddy-diddling by priests — or about the actual, born children who were their victims?

            Really?

          • colleen2

            I was not joking. I was mocking your absurd statement. Your Church has embraced and enabled pedophiles for centuries. Their thinking permeates Catholic doctrine.

          • Valde

            Your wonderful church molested dutch boys and then castrated them. And covered it up.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            But that’s True Christian Love (TM), Valde. You know, the kind where those in power abuse the powerless with impunity, and call it saving their souls. Why, that’s all DWR is trying to do here in our little community, is save us.

          • HeilMary1

            Save women by murdering them with fetuses instead of fists.

          • HeilMary1

            You joke about killing your wife!

        • HeilMary1

          You deliberately murdered your wife with a deadly pregnancy and you condemn our SELF-DEFENSE through contraception and abortion!? You are worse than Hannibal Lector.

    • fiona64

      the murder of an innocent.

      Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought. Since abortion is legal, and a fetus is not a person, your position immediately fails on those two counts alone.

      if the fetus is “innocent” (which is ridiculous, since it has no conscience), of what is the pregnant woman “guilty”? After all, she’s the one you want to punish …

      • DivineWordRadio

        I am aware what murder is.

        By your standard, it was not murder to kill Jews in Germany, because it was legal. It was not murder to lynch a black man because lynchings were legal. But no, after World War II we determined that the natural law overrides civil law when it comes to murder.

        Those who choose to kill their offspring are guilty of murder. It is the wrongful taking of a human life, whether you like it or not. Can you justify it, by any method other than saying, “the law allows it?”

        • Valde

          In your view, was it murder if a female slave aborted her pregnancy? You know, the female slaves who were repeatedly raped by the slaveowners.

          Oh, and Jewish women, during WW2, were also repeatedly raped and kept as sex toys. When they took herbs to abort those pregnancies were they also NAZI murderers in your ignorant eyes?

          • goatini

            They took the herbs to save THEIR OWN LIVES. But DepravedWordRadio considers that to be a “selfish” act for “convenience”.

          • Valde

            He really doesn’t like it when he is confronted with actual science and facts:P

            Can’t refute them!

          • HeilMary1

            But it’s OK for Gene Church to murder women with pregnancies.

        • Lizzie

          Let’s not compare abortion to the holocaust. It’s insanely offensive to the REAL (not potential) people who died.

        • Ella Warnock

          “I am aware what murder is”

          Mmm, I think not.

          What any study of human history will tell you is that it doesn’t matter if “the law allows it.” It’s a reality nonetheless.

        • fiona64

          By your standard, it was not murder to kill Jews in Germany,

          Jews are persons; fetii are not. Your Godwin is duly noted.

          Those who choose to kill their offspring are guilty of murder.

          What punishment should these felons then receive?

          Can you justify it, by any method other than saying, “the law allows it?”

          Yep. Forcing women to remain pregnant is enslavement. And before you ask, I have a 26-year-old son. I am even more pro-choice as a result; I also have primary knowledge that pregnancy is not a state of wellness, and no one should be forced to undergo it against their will. Consent to sex is *not* consent to pregnancy.

          And no, you are clearly not aware of what constitutes murder, or you would not make such an asinine comparison.

          • HeilMary1

            He should be in jail for wife murder. Fair is fair.

        • Valde

          You still have to tell us…because we are all waiting….should

          1) female slaves who aborted their forced pregnancies have been charged with murder?

          2) should Jewish and Slavic women who were raped and impregnated during WWII have been charged with murder when they aborted those pregnancies?

        • HeilMary1

          I SAID YOU SHOULD BE IN JAIL AND YOU ADMITTED “LEGALLY” MURDERING YOUR WIFE BY “SAFE” PREGNANCY.

    • Valde

      A fetus isn’t innocent. It is actively attacking the woman in order to grow.

      • DivineWordRadio

        A fetus does not attack a woman. A uterus serves one purpose–to hold a child. Attacking the uterus attacks the child. To claim otherwise ignores biology, and supports euthanasia.

        • Valde

          The uterus belongs to the woman.

          Anatomy is not destiny.

          And science disagrees with you:

          1) The zygote actually overpowers the woman’s immune system in the same way a parasite does. Isn’t that interesting!?

          Here are some scientific findings:

          Further investigation revealed that placental NKB contained
          the molecule phosphocholine, which is used by the parasitic nematode
          worm to avoid attack by the immune system of the host in which it lives.

          During implantation, fetally derived cells (trophoblast) invade the
          maternal endometrium and remodel the endometrial spiral arteries into
          low-resistance vessels that are unable to constrict. This invasion has
          three consequences. First, the fetus gains direct access to its mother’s
          arterial blood. Therefore, a mother cannot reduce the nutrient content
          of blood reaching the placenta without reducing the nutrient supply to
          her own tissues. Second, the volume of blood reaching the placenta
          becomes largely independent of control by the local maternal
          vasculature. Third, the placenta is able to release hormones and other
          substances directly into the maternal circulation. Placental hormones,
          including human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human placental
          lactogen (hPL), are predicted to manipulate maternal physiology for
          fetal benefit.

          The host-parasite relationship during pregnancy is a fascinating
          interaction and research in this area will improve understanding of
          disease pathogenesis and the various consequences of the host immune
          response, being host-protective, parasite protective and contributing to
          disease pathology. Pregnancy poses an interesting problem for the
          immune system of the dam as she is essentially carrying a
          semi-allogeneic tissue graft (the foetus) without immunological
          rejection taking place.

          Another role for foetal transferrin receptors on trophoblasts could be
          to bind maternal transferrin at the materno-foetal interface, thus
          frustrating maternal immunosurveillance. This is similar to a mechahism
          used by schistosomes in the host-parasite relation where host proteins
          are bound by the parasite to escape immunological recognition.

          2) biologist pz myers writes:

          A new paper by Emera, Romero, and Wagner suggests an interesting new idea. They turn the question around: menstruation isn’t the phenomenon to be explained, decidualization, the production of a thickened endometrial lining, is the key process.

          All mammals prepare a specialized membrane for embryo implantation, the difference is that most mammals exhibit triggered decidualization, where the fertilized embryo itself instigates the thickening, while most primates have spontaneous decidualization (SD), which occurs even in the absence of a fertilized embryo. You can, for instance, induce menstruation in mice. By scratching the mouse endometrium, they will go through a pseudopregnancy
          and build up a thickened endometrial lining that will be shed when progesterone levels drop. So the reason mice don’t menstruate isn’t thatthey lack a mechanism for shedding the endometrial lining…it’s that they don’t build it up in the first place unless they’re actually going
          to use it.

          So the question is, why do humans have spontaneous decidualization?

          The answer that Emera suggests is entirely evolutionary, and involves maternal-fetal conflict. The mother and fetus have an adversarial relationship: mom’s best interest is to survive pregnancy to bearchildren again, and so her body tries to conserve resources for the long haul. The fetus, on the other hand, benefits from wresting as much
          from mom as it can, sometimes to the mother’s detriment. The fetus, for instance, manipulates the mother’s hormones to weaken the insulin response, so less sugar is taken up by mom’s cells, making more available for the fetus.

          Within the mammals, there is variation in how deeply the fetus sinks its placental teeth into the uterus. Some species are epithelochorial; the connection is entirely superficial. Others are endotheliochorial, in
          which the placenta pierces the uterine epithelium. And others, the most invasive, are hemochorial, and actually breach maternal blood vessels.
          Humans are hemochorial. All of the mammalian species that menstruate arealso hemochorial.

          That’s a hint. Menstruation is a consequence of self-defense. Femalesbuild up that thickened uterine lining to protect and insulate themselves from the greedy embryo and its selfish placenta. In species
          with especially invasive embryos, it’s too late to wait for the moment of implantation — instead, they build up the wall pre-emptively, before and in case of fertilization. Then, if fertilization doesn’t occur, the universal process of responding to declining progesterone levels by sloughing off the lining occurs.

        • Ella Warnock
        • fiona64

          A fetus does not attack a woman.

          You clearly have no idea how pregnancy works.

          • HeilMary1

            Even after he let a fetus kill his first wife! Like guns don’t kill people, people do!

        • colleen2

          Notice how this nice Catholic man completely ignores the maternal mortality rate? He is not alone. The entire religious right likes to pretend that those horrific numbers are a liberal hoax and they NEVERaddress the issue. Pregnancy is safe as houses and almost painless according to the sick, lying freaks of the religious right. The religious right works towards policies which dramatically increase the materbnal mortality rate. The Catholic church seeks the privilege of operating public hospitals on the tax payer’s dollar and they also work to dramatically increase the maternal mortality rate AND deny women accerss to effective contraception.
          Wow, I’m just SO IMPRESSED with the Church’s concern for human life. It’s so fucking touching.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            I don’t think they know or care if pregnancy is safe. I would imagine that they subscribe to what their hero, Martin Luther, said of women:

            “If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth–that is why they are there.”

            Safety for women isn’t a thing. Never was.

          • HeilMary1

            Where is Saint Lorena Bobbitt when an abusive husband needs a lesson?

          • goatini

            The Roman Catholic Church DESIRES a high maternal mortality rate. It’s a win-win – if the fetus can be saved instead of the woman in a pregnancy complication, then (1) the fetus can be baptized after being born – chalk up one more name for the rolls – and (2) the man is then free to remarry another chattel properly livestock breeder, that may be less of a useless failed unsuccessful breeder than the one that got culled from the herd.

          • goatini

            SCORE – DepravedWordRadio indeed DID soldier on and remarry Wife # 2, who has proved her worthiness to NOT be left to unnecessarily perish in childbirth, by popping out **6** more. Lucky her, SHE gets to LIVE.

          • colleen

            I think the first one is luckier. Being married to this man would be hell on earth. Not as bad as having him for a father but still, pretty horrible.

        • Valde

          580k women die per year worldwide from pregnancy

        • HeilMary1

          You used your penis to murder your wife. Hope your penis rots off because you are unworthy of sex since you exploit it to abuse women as breeding cows.

  • deb r

    I read an account of how slave women used cotton root to cause abortion because they (surprise, surprise) wanted to control if they gave birth rather than allowing the slave owner to control them and to prevent more babies being born into slavery(and maybe being killed if the slave owner decided on it). comparing abortion to slavery is the exact opposite. Also same for the Nazis–they banned birth control and abortion for “Aryan” women and forced it on what they considered undesirable such as Jewish or gypsies. Again all about someone else controlling women–not about saving babies–just like today.

    • DivineWordRadio

      No, it is a valid comparison. But the mother is the slave owner here.

      You say Nazis banned birth control. Sounds great, but it misses that all Christian denominations declared birth control to be immoral until the 1930s. The statement, while designed to cause shock, means little.

      Hitler wanted eugenics, such as what was proposed by Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. Sanger was a big supporter of Hitler.

      • goatini

        WRONG again. The great humanitarian Margaret Sanger abhorred Hitler and his regime. Well-documented FACT.

        • DivineWordRadio

          Right again. I am aware that the Margaret Sanger papers project has attempted to rehab her, but to no avail.

          • goatini

            Facts don’t need to be “rehabbed”, especially in an excellent archive maintained by one of the leading American universities.

          • colleen2

            Then you must have a valid cite that would refute your absurd claim. And you do not.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I love definitional posts like “valid cite.” Anything you don’t like isn’t valid.

          • Valde

            Cite it, or shut the fuck up.

          • colleen2

            Sad little coward…….don’t have a cite do you?

          • goatini

            Of course it doesn’t, because it never happened.

            What REALLY happened:

            (Sanger) joined the American Council Against Nazi Propaganda and “gave money, my name and any influence I had with writers and others, to combat Hitler’s rise to power in Germany.” For Hitler the feeling was mutual; in 1933 the Nazis burned Sanger’s books along with those of Ellis, Freud, German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld, and others.

          • fiona64

            No, I am willing to look at valid citations that disagree with me. It’s one of the reasons I prefer primary sources — like the Margaret Sanger Papers, which you are determined to ignore.

            However, I also know how to look for things like bias — and don’t hesitate to call out biased citations.

            So, what you’re really saying is that you don’t have citations to back up your assertions.

            Quelle surprise.

          • colleen2

            Seriously? It’s the original source material that this ninny is rejecting?

          • fiona64

            Yes. He refuses to look at the Sanger Papers (which are original source documents).

          • colleen

            funny. what fools the religious right are.

          • HeilMary1

            Wife murderer!

          • Ella Warnock

            Orlly? Do share your source for this claim.

          • fiona64

            The Margaret Sanger Papers consist of her *own papers* and documents. If you would read them, you would be seeing primary sources that prove how very wrong your statements are.

            Which is why, obviously, you didn’t even bother to take a look. You couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance that would result.

          • HeilMary1

            Gene Church, THE WIFE KILLER, couldn’t keep his deadly penis in his pants!

        • colleen2

          This is a guy who believes he is the Divine Word. Once you manage to assume that level of delusion and arrogance and entitlement there are no limits to what you will say and do. We already know that t5he religious right could give a crap about actual children. The Republican platform would make anyone who honestly cared about children puke. It’s unfortunate that right wing ‘caring’ about children results in privation, homelessness, victim blaming and third world conditions that would embarrass any decent human being.

          This person isn’t posting to reason with anyone, he/she is posting to proselytize his/her religion of hatred and malice.

          • DivineWordRadio

            No, this is a guy who believes the Divine Word is Jesus Christ. It is unfortunate that pro-abortion platform involves murder, and establishing the value of human life based upon what it can offer you.

            You aren’t posting reason, but straw man arguments. The Claims about Republicans are false, but they sound good to you, so a little lie doesn’t really matter.

            And my religion loves both the mother and child. You are pro-choice–choose one.

          • Valde

            Your religion believes that a woman’s only worth is in her ability to give birth, keep the house clean, and be a sex slave for her husband.

          • goatini

            Tell me how, specifically, a religion that tells pre-adolescent female children that dying in childbirth is a great blessing “loves the mother”. Because any sane, compassionate person would see this as telling girls that if they cannot successfully breed, they need to be culled from the herd.

          • colleen2

            Your religion and your political party both treat women like garbage

          • Ella Warnock

            Your religion doesn’t love anyone. Anyone who’s had much exposure to Good Christians (TM) knows that.

          • fiona64

            You aren’t posting reason, but straw man arguments.

            One can only presume that you were looking in the mirror as you wrote those words.

            In any event, I have noticed over time that it is very easy to be an anti-choice male. After all, it is never you whose life and health will be endangered by pregnancy — wanted *or* unwanted. Pregnancy, even relatively uncomplicated cases, is not a state of wellness. It causes permanent physiological/osteological changes to a woman’s body. It can kill her (and does, with alarming regularity, even in the developed world The US is #50 in maternal mortality due to pregnancy complications.).

            Not that you care.

          • HeilMary1

            He sure didn’t care about the first wife!

          • Jennifer Starr

            The claims about Republicans are entirely true. One of the many reasons that I’m not longer one of them.

          • HeilMary1

            THEN WHY DID YOU MURDER YOUR FIRST WIFE? — couldn’t get an annulment to marry the escort?? How come YOU don’t keep it in YOUR pants?

          • HeilMary1

            And to brag about LEGALLY murdering his first unwanted brood mare.

      • fiona64

        You know, I suggest that you educate yourself on what Margaret Sanger *actually* believed, as opposed to what some nonsensical anti-choice site *told* you she believed. http://www dot nyu dot edu/projects/sanger/ would be a good place to begin.

        And, actually, it’s the anti-choice who are the slavers in the picture. You support denying women liberty in favor of the non-existent rights of a zygote.

        And yes, Hitler banned contraception (and abortion) for Aryan women — you can look up Lebensborn yourself — while demanding abortion for non-Aryan women. Forced abortion is just as anti-choice as forced pregnancy, sweetie; Hitler belongs on your side of the scoreboard.

        • DivineWordRadio

          Sanger was intimately involved in the eugenics movement, and sought to “assist the race toward the elimination of the unfit.”

          No, it is those who kill their children who are the slavers.

          Talk about redefinition. We are not anti-choice. You have the choice not to have sex, not to kill babies. You support allowing murder of children as a liberty right.

          Forced abortion, by putative fathers, employers, and parents, is the rule, rather than the exception.

          • Valde

            You are anti-choice because you would force women to remain pregnant against their will.

            Pro-choicers are not forcing women to get abortions, or to remain pregnant.

            Unlike you, we believe that the choice to give birth should be left up to the pregnant person.

            Oh, and a microscopic embryo isn’t a child, dumbass.

          • DivineWordRadio

            No, I’m anti-abortion, and pro-life. I would also force women not to kill their 6 year olds either.

            Pro-abortion supporters do force women to get abortions, in China, and even here, where husbands, boyfriends, employers, and parents decide that having a child is inconvenient.

            Unlike you, I believe that the choice to give birth should be left up to the woman, before having sex.

            Oh, and a microscopic embryo is a child, it isn’t a chair. Oh, and I don’t have to call names so that I’ll feel superior.

          • Valde

            You are pro forced birth.

            Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. No more than eating is consent to choking, or skiing is consent to a broken leg.

            A microscopic embyro is a *genetic blueprint*. Children are not genetic blueprints.

            I am calling you names because your views are extremely offensive. And you ARE ignorant in the extreme.

            Or maybe you just like to lie a lot? I can’t tell.

          • goatini

            Oh, and an embryo is NOT a “child”, since all children, ever, have already been born. Oh, and you call names and use invalid euphemisms so that you’ll feel superior.

          • goatini

            What this ignorant dupe for the forced-birther syndicate (actually the billion-dollar global human trafficking adoption syndicate) is too ignorant to realize, is that any power that can compel a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to gestate to term against her specific will and wishes, can also compel a woman with a wanted pregnancy to terminate against her specific will and wishes. Two sides of the same coin. This ignorant forced-birther dupe is EXACTLY THE SAME as those it disingenuously decries in China. EXACTLY THE SAME.

          • Ella Warnock

            Why would anyone force anyone else to kill a 6 yo? What a strange thing to say.

            “Oh, and I don’t have to call names so that I’ll feel superior.”

            No, all you need to do to feel superior is fling your intolerant poo all over people who disagree with you. So you’re not exactly taking the moral high road there.

          • HeilMary1

            Then you premeditated your wife’s murder by childbirth. Lorena Bobbitt should have been your 2nd wife, WIFE MURDERER. How about YOU practicing abstinence to avoid killing more women?!

          • goatini

            Yep, it looks like it’s a homeschooled teenager spewing deliberately ignorant, completely false bile. It has no knowledge whatsoever of actual factual history, and in lazy self-aggrandization it posts the lies its handlers and leaders have fed it.

            Any educated person knows that the study of eugenics was a required part of the mainstream science curriculum at EVERY major university in the United States at the turn of the 20th century. And I’d be willing to wager that this deliberately ignorant hate-monger is itself, actually, quite the eugenicist when it comes down to brass tacks. What kind of person actively WANTS and ADVOCATES for their son or daughter to marry and have a family with an alcoholic, a drug addict, a severely mentally ill person, and/or a person with an incurable congenital disorder? Answer: NO ONE, really.

            It is, at least, finally honest about its goal: to criminalize fully actualized females who engage in self-initiated sexual activity, especially outside of Church-approved male ownership as chattel breeding property livestock.

            But it continues to be blatantly and viciously dishonest about reproductive justice for female US citizens. (1) NO children are involved in safe, legal pregnancy termination – ALL children, ever, have already been born. (2) NO babies are involved in safe, legal pregnancy termination – ALL babies, ever, have already been born. (3) The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of female US citizens exercising their civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy in healthcare choices and personal bodily autonomy elect to do so, self-directedly and autonomously, of their OWN VOLITION – for reasons which are NONE of anyone else’s business.

          • Valde

            I can’t decide if this one is more arrogant than ignorant…or more ignorant than arrogant.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I suspect a bit of both.

          • Ella Warnock

            You have the choice to mind your own business. Of course, you choose not to, so I guess in that way you are indeed pro-choice. As long as it’s all about you, that is.

          • Amanda Kazarian

            You mean keeping poor women from using contraception so they have babies they can’t afford? So poor women aren’t entitled to enjoy relationships with the opposite sex. Seems legit.

          • colleen2

            Of course they are simultaneously manipulating public policy to force as many women as possible into poverty and dependence in the abusive and demeaning relationships known as ‘traditional marriage’. How pathetic does a guy have to be to announce that women must be submissive and subservient because that’s how God wants it? They simply cannot conceive of a human relationship that is not based on dominance and submission.

            They use the poor women first for the same reason that pedophiles seek out the most vulnerable children. We are the easiest to exploit and the most desperate, particularly when we have children to care for.

          • fiona64

            Sanger was intimately involved in the eugenics movement, and sought to “assist the race toward the elimination of the unfit.”

            Is anyone this much of a dumbass? Really?

            If you had bothered to read the information I provided, you would have seen that Sanger started the first neighborhood medical clinic in New York’s Harlem … because white physicians would not treat patients of color.

            You have the choice not to have sex, not to kill babies. You support allowing murder of children as a liberty right.

            Thanks for proving that your position is about controlling women: “If you don’t want a baby, keep your legs shut.”

            Forced abortion, by putative fathers, employers, and parents, is the rule, rather than the exception.

            Citation still needed. You make these assertions as though they are fact, and can’t back them up. Why is that?

          • HeilMary1

            “Thanks for proving that your position is about controlling women: ‘If you don’t want a baby, keep your legs shut.’”

            And yet Gene Church has no remorse about using his penis to murder his first wife! He doesn’t have to keep it in his pants, but wives deserve death by childbirth every time they have sex WITH HIM! Lorena Bobbitt should have lopped off his weapon!

          • HeilMary1

            Sanger was fed up with cleaning up fistula-incontinent brood mares who were begging for contraception. Her colleague, Mary Dennett, was dumped by her husband because childbirth ruined her body and nearly killed her. And YOU MURDERED YOUR OWN WIFE!

      • HeilMary1

        Catholic Hitler stiffened penalties for birth control and abortions, and he got RCC blessings to arrest Jews as “family planners and abortionists”. Sanger’s own mother was killed by 17 pregnancies.

  • goatini

    “…they’re equating the Holocaust not just with women who commit the “sin” of having sex without wanting to get pregnant, but women who wanted to have a baby, but couldn’t.”

    Livestock that cannot successfully be bred for reproduction are culled because they are useless.

    This is what the forced-birthers have in mind for American females. The Roman Catholic Church already adheres to the Women As Livestock model – encouraging women with compromised pregnancies to carry to term, regardless of the mortality risk to the ONLY person and the ONLY entity with rights in the equation – the living, breathing WOMAN.

    They LOVE dead martyrs who will tell no tales, and they HATE women as fully actualized persons and citizens who stand up for their rights, and for their own lives.

    Their opinion of females is, “A cow that can’t reproduce is a useless eater. If your cow dies, get another cow.”

    • DivineWordRadio

      Forced-birthers? How about baby-murderers? I figure we might as well use labels to win the argument.

      The Church does not adhere to a livestock model. By that standard, you profess the genocide model–encouraging women to kill their offspring, regardless of the risk to the woman, out of convenience. You can use the term “living, breathing: but both the woman and her child are.

      The Church promotes life, from conception to natural death. You support utilitarianism, death unless you are useful. The Church does not hate women. But your selfishness puts your sex drive ahead of the lives of others.

      You are truly sad.

      • Valde

        Yes, forced birther describes you perfectly.

        Once a woman is pregnant you believe she should be FORCED to give birth.

        It is accurate.

        And a microscopic zygote isn’t a baby, sweetie.

      • Valde

        By that standard, you profess the genocide model

        Oh, and fetii are not specifically targeted and killed so people can take their stuff, or engage in ‘ethnic cleansing’

        A woman has the right not to be pregnant. It’s not her fault the embyro cannot exist outside her body.

        So your genocide argument is not only wrong, its laughable.

        Oh, and insult to those who HAVE actually been targeted through genocide.

        • goatini

          Thank you. As the child of a survivor, I find this “genocide” nonsense to be highly offensive to the memories of those actual living breathing sentient persons, with actual lives, families, jobs, and plans for the future, who suffered ACTUAL genocide.

          Hard to believe that some ignorant tone-deaf person even has the nerve to screech this lying nonsense, with the High Holy Days just passed this last week.

          • Valde

            Yeah, I have had similar arguments,and pointed this out, how it’s an insult etc, and they say ‘I still have the right to point out something if it’s wrong, and this qualifies as genocide blah blah’

          • goatini

            Second only to the Jews, Soviet prisoners of war were the largest group of victims of Nazi racial policy.

          • goatini

            Oh, nice “Christian” there, down-voting the child of an actual genocide survivor. Truly a vicious creep.

        • DivineWordRadio

          A woman does have the right not to be pregnant. She can choose not to have sex.

          You sound like an animal, in proposing that “it’s not her fault the embryo cannot exist outside her body.” Oh, I’m sorry. Most animals provide for their young. Is it also not the fault of a mother that her child can’t feed itself? Perhaps it should be acceptable to kill them in the first few days after birth, a “right to return” policy.

          Yes, my genocide argument is correct, and your cold heart is obvious.

          And, I know a woman from Rwanda who had been targeted through genocide who agrees with me.

          • Valde

            Actually, you are the one who is suggesting women be treated like animals.

            Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. If it was women would go into heat (just like animals) and fuck every guy on the block.

            Yes, my genocide argument is correct, and your cold heart is obvious.

            You haven’t proven anything.

            And, I know a woman from Rwanda who had been targeted through genocide who agrees with me.

            Grats. And a majority of Jewish people are pro-choice. Does this mean you consider Jews to be Nazis sweetie?

          • fiona64

            You can make all kinds of claims on the internet that are not verifiable. One of them is “I know a woman from Rwanda.”

            Love, an astronaut and coloratura soprano with the Met

          • goatini

            He’s talking about Immaculée Ilibagiza, who he and the Church now exploits.

          • fiona64

            Oh. So he doesn’t know a woman from Rwanda … he knows *of* a woman from Rwanda. There is a big difference.

          • HeilMary1

            DWR just makes garbage up to back up his misogynist fantasies.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Yes, but does the woman from Rwanda “agree” with you? Because that’s how we recognize your authority, you see.

            Edited to add: This was meant as a reply to fiona. Thanks disqus.

          • goatini

            In the last century, Catholic bishops have been deeply mired in Rwandan politics with the full knowledge of the Vatican. Take Archbishop Vincent Nsengiyumva. Until 1990, he had served as the chairman of the ruling party’s central committee for almost 15 years, championing the authoritarian government of Juvenal Habyarimana, which orchestrated the murder of almost a million people. Or Archbishop André Perraudin, the most senior representative of Rome in 1950s Rwanda. It was with his collusion and mentorship that the hateful, racist ideology known as Hutu Power was launched – often by priests and seminarians in good standing with the church. One such was Rwanda’s first president, Grégoire Kayibanda, a private secretary and protege of Perraudin, whose political power was unrivalled.

            The support for Hutu Power was therefore not unknowing or naive. It was a strategy to maintain the church’s powerful political position in a decolonising Rwanda. The violence of the 1960s led inexorably to the 1994 attempt to exterminate Tutsis. These were violent expressions of a political sphere dominated by contentions that Hutu and Tutsi were separate and opposed racial categories. This, too, is one of the legacies of the Catholic missionary, whose schools and pulpits for decades kept up a drumbeat of false race theories.

          • HeilMary1

            Thank you! In the late 1990s, I attended some lectures sponsored by the US Holocaust Museum and Rutgers University on Religion, Modernity and Genocide, and many lecturers covered genocides triggered by the RCC. RCC missionaries in Rwanda fawned over the “European-looking” Tutsis at the expense of the Hutus. Before the RCC pollution, both tribes lived peacefully with each other.

          • Valde

            Your precious RCC:

            1) allied with the Nazi’s in Poland and assisted in rounding up Jews for the gas chambers. oh, and stealing their land

            2) Ireland refused to let in Jewish refugees – many of them children – but accepted catholic Nazi’s.

          • HeilMary1

            And DWR’s favorite Poop Paul VI funded Nazi Ustasha death camps in Croatia to punish 1 million Serb Christians for heresy. “Anti-abortion” Ustasha leader Ante Pavelic even bragged about gutting pregnant Serbs and killing their heretic fetuses. He was thanked by Pius XII for his “Catholic valor against abortion” (Serb fetuses don’t count!) and Nazi Vatican ratlines smuggled him to Argentina where he helped fascists disappear 20,000 leftists.

          • HeilMary1

            Does the Rwanda woman know you murdered your first brood mare because you selfishly wouldn’t practice what you preach with abstinence only as birth control? You shouldn’t have had wife-killing sex with your wife, you selfish sex fiend! And your womb-trafficking RCC caused Rwanda’s many overpopulation resource genocides. When Rwanda’s RCC-forced overpopulation exceeded available agriculture in the mid 1990s, its starving RCC missionary-favored Tutsis battled with the missionary-snubbed Hutus for insufficient food. But wife-killer you prefers holy genocide of the living over mother-saving contraception of the unconceived!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. I will have earth shaking thigh melting hot sex. I will use contraception. If I get pregnant, I will gestate or abort as I see fit. Not as YOU see fit.

      • goatini

        Projection of one’s faults upon the innocent opposition – it’s what forced-birthers do best – and this forced-birther is no exception. What they don’t project, they simply lie about.

        (1) No babies are ever involved in a safe, legal pregnancy termination – all babies, ever, have already been born. So this forced-birther is a liar.

        (2) The Roman Catholic Church indeed relegates females to the role of chattel property livestock, of no value unless capable of successful breeding. I have 60 years into this and I am 100% accurate and correct. So this forced-birther is lying.

        (3) No children are ever involved in a safe, legal pregnancy termination – all children, ever, have already been born. And zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses do not breathe. So this forced-birther is lying.

        (4) The Roman Catholic Church supports utilitarianism above all, especially for females, who are relegated to the status of chattel property breeding livestock, and who are encouraged to suicide themselves for tragic non-viable compromised pregnancies – FACT. I’ll still never forget the grade school “sex ed” class in which Sister told us that when we grew up, married and became pregnant, that we should always make sure that we were taken to a Catholic hospital – because if there was a complication in the birth, a non-Catholic hospital would save OUR lives, instead of letting us die to attempt to save the fetus instead – and that it was a great blessing to die in childbirth – FACT. Even a fifth-grader could figure out that the Church deeply and intensely hated and despised females, and saw us as nothing more than disposable breeding units.

        (5) What IS selfish, vicious, and misogynistic, in the extreme, is to render the enormous importance of the dignity of a woman’s choosing when, where, why, how and with whom to start or grow her family – the MOST important decisions she will ever make – into “convenience”. What an insult to half of the world.

        • DivineWordRadio

          You are the one pumping the lies.

          1) There are babies involved. You want to deny their existence. Let’s not do an ultrasound, so the mother can’t see and make a more informed decision. Over 30 states have laws on the books against fetal homicide.

          2) The Church does not relegate females to breeders. You are an insulting liar. If you have 60 years in this, it is 60 years of lying.

          3) Fortunately the courts disagreed with you in the Gosnell case. The jury had no doubts those were babies murdered, despite his claim that they were not.

          4) You support utilitarianism. The Church supports the inherent value of human life, from conception to natural death. You repeat the same lie over and over, and think that makes it true. You tell me you have an 11 year olds understanding. Yeah, right.

          5) What is selfish, vicious, and misogynistic is the murder of these babies. You insult men in this equation as well.

          • Valde

            An embryo is not a baby.

            The possession of human dna does not a baby make.

          • Valde

            Oh, and you don’t even know what ‘misogynist’ means, do you?

            Since when is abortion a misogynist act lolololol

            Idiot.

          • goatini

            Babies have already been born. No “babies” involved at all in safe, legal pregnancy termination.

            So-called “fetal homicide” laws were shoved through complicit municipalities by misogynistic legislators, backed by the deep pockets of those like the Koch Bros, as just another insidious back-door attempt to decimate the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens. These laws are un-Constitutional, and they are an insult to female US citizens. These laws dehumanize and exploit female US citizens as being unworthy of the prosecution of felony assault upon THEIR OWN person. Sufficient prosecutorial and sentencing remedies for violent felony assaults on pregnant women CAN be assessed – as penalties for assault against the actual WOMAN herself. Scott Peterson can’t be executed twice.

            Gosnell, whose crimes were first publicized here on RHRC back in 2010 (via UPI news feed), was a criminal with a criminal enterprise performing criminal acts, who was prosecuted and convicted. He has as much to do with the safe, legal practice of gynecology, as Conrad Murray had to do with the safe, legal practice of cardiology.

            The Roman Catholic Church indeed DOES relegate females to be either breeders, or to “consecrated virginity”, both under Church-approved male ownership. You can lie all you want but it doesn’t make your lies into fact. Wojtyła himself asserted that the “genius” of females resided NOT in the intellect, but in the uterus.

            The Roman Catholic Church’s syndicate of theocratic “healthcare” establishments, in addition to their depraved indifference to female patients overall, also dehumanize and exploit patients in extremis by refusing to honor duly authorized and witnessed Living Wills and DNR orders – which I consider to be cruel and inhuman torture.

            And finally, no ACTUAL men are “insulted” by my facts. Any male who does not respect females as fully whole, fully human, fully actualized, fully equal individuals, with equal rights to privacy in personal healthcare decisions and personal bodily autonomy, is no “man”.

          • Valde

            You are way more patient than I am. Even though I have no doubt that you are doing this for the readers, not him. He’s too dumb to understand.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Yes, I know. He isn’t a human being. He’s just black. No humans are involved at all in safe, legal lynching, or termination.

            As to the rest of your screed, you throw in name calling, because you aren’t interested in discussing the issues, only branding the opponents. Let’s review your points. A fetal homicide law is “so-called”, and when passed was a legislature, it is “shoved through” “complicit” cities by “misogynistic” legislators. Is it possible that someone who disagrees with you in not misogynistic?

            The laws are unconstitutional. So was Brown v Board of Education, until it overturned Plessy v Ferguson. Separate but equal was the law of the land, overturning it would be unconstitutional, and if you wanted to you loved black men (although more colloquial terms were used), it was insidious, and people were trying to shove through changes.

            These laws do not dehumanize female US citizens. They are still humans. They exploit women? By protecting their child, and allowing someone to be held criminally responsible for killing their child? Most of these laws carve out an exception for abortion, so it will be acceptable for a woman to kill her own child. Does that make the woman human now? Is she no longer exploited?

            The woman already could claim felony assault on her person. The fetus is not her person, whether you think so or not.

            Scott Peterson cannot be executed twice, but a perpetrator might be executed once for the murder of the child, when the mother lives and the child dies.

            Gosnell was a criminal. His facility was not investigated for years, despite the deaths of women there, and multiple reports. Why? Because it was an abortion facility. Until allegations arose that drugs were being sold there, the local officials were not interested in looking to see what was going on.

            The Church does not relegate females to breeders (although biologically, reproduction is an integral part of female person). You then throw in some drivel about “male ownership” establishing your lack of truth or objectivity on the subject. You are the liar. Your statement about Pope John Paul II is false. Perhaps you should really try to study his Theology of the Body rather than making things up.

            It is dehumanizing and utilitarian when you measure human value as you appear to. You clearly know nothing about advanced directives and the Catholic Church, which does allow for DNR orders. It does not allow for euthanasia, which is a different matter. If you are claiming that you think not allowing euthanasia is cruel and inhumane torture, then you’ve established that the Church is right. The time would come when good would be called evil, and evil called good. It is the failure to value human life, from conception to natural death, that marks the signs of inhumanity.

          • Valde

            Dorothy Roberts writes in Killing the Black Body: Race, Reproduction and the Meaning of Liberty,
            “[t]he essence of Black women’s experience during slavery was the
            brutal denial of autonomy over reproduction.” Female slaves’ ability to produce more slaves was central to the economic interests of slaveowners and, once the importation of slaves was banned, to the perpetuation of the institution of slavery. A woman’s reproductive capacity figured intoher price on the market and was as valuable as labor in the fields. As Thomas Jefferson wrote, “I consider a woman who brings a child every two years as more profitable than the best man on the farm.”

            Slaveowners beat women who did not reproduce or sold them, separating them from their families. Some engaged in slave-breeding, forcing slaves considered “prime stock” to mate in order to produce particularly valuable new slaves for labor or sale. Evidence exists that slaves resisted slaveowners’ demands that they reproduce by using herbal and other makeshift contraceptive and abortive methods. Slaveowners were free to rape slaves with impunity and the children who resulted increased their wealth. A slave women’s child was not her own, but the property of her master. Even prior to conception, a slaveowner held a
            property interest in a woman’s future children that could be bequeathed by will.

            Slavery separated black women from their future children at the
            moment of conception, treating the interests of the fetus as separate and conflicting with that of the mother. Though this conception of the fetus as having distinct interests to be protected from the mother is a familiar part of our discourse and legal framework today, this division did not exist for white women at the time. Professor Roberts describes one method of whipping pregnant women that illustrates this early conception of the maternal-fetal conflict. The mother would be forced to
            lay with her stomach in a hole dug in the ground so the mother could be beaten while the fetus was protected. “It is the most striking metaphor I know for the evils of policies that seek to protect the fetus while disregarding the humanity of the mother,” she writes. Professor Koppelman has previously argued,
            on the basis of Supreme Court precedent interpreting the Thirteenth Amendment’s prohibition of slavery and involuntary servitude to protect individual liberty and equality, that the government may not prohibit abortion. To do so would be to require physical service from a woman for the benefit of a fetus. The originalist argument relies less on analysis of the case law than a more comprehensive understanding of what antebellum slavery entailed

            As Professor Roberts explains, “[w]e often envision the hallmark of
            slavery’s inhumanity as the slave picking cotton under the overseer’s lash.” However, “[a]s much as slaves’ forced labor, whites’ control of slave women’s wombs perpetrated many of slavery’s greatest atrocities.” The Thirteenth Amendment prohibits treating human beings as they were treated under antebellum slavery. The denial of reproductive autonomy is a brutal and under-recognized aspect of that treatment.

            ———
            Here’s the funny thing. DWR claims to be anti-slavery. Yet, he believes that each and every female slave that was raped should have been FORCED to carry every pregnancy to term. And that every one of these women that aborted their pregnancies = murderers.

            Have a good think about that one folks.

          • colleen

            Slave-owners and the Catholic hierarchy have a great deal in common . Indeed the last Magdalene laundry closed in the late 90′s. They used women as slaves and buried their bodies in unmarked graves. The ONLY reason it closed is because using women as laundry slaves was no longer profitable. Now the Church refuses to compensate the surviving women they used so shamefully.

          • Valde

            Yes, and I referenced the horrific practise of symphiosotomy elsewhere in this thread.

          • HeilMary1

            You beat me to it! I should scroll down before I post!

          • HeilMary1

            DWR supports Magdalene laundries to punish us sluts.

          • fiona64

            The Church does not relegate females to breeders (although biologically, reproduction is an integral part of female person).

            So, infertile, post-fertile and childfree women are no longer “female persons”?

            ROFLMAO.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Well, to be fair, they never really were people.

          • Ella Warnock

            You know, I just noticed a bunch of downvotes well after the comments were made. He’s just trolling through here downvoting everything.

            But he’s got better things to do, and it’s only the need to refute HM that brought him back.

            Well allrighty then.

          • goatini

            “So, infertile, post-fertile and childfree women are no longer “female persons”?”

            Just like in The Handmaid’s Tale.

          • fiona64

            Yep.

          • goatini

            Wojtyła did indeed assert that the female “genius” does not reside in the intellect, but in the uterus. FACT. Some Catholic you are, you don’t even know your apostolic letters.

            “TOTB” is just more vile misogyny from Wojtyła, a vicious protector of child abusers and a hater of females. FACT.

            And the Roman Catholic Church absolutely believes, and teaches, that the proper role for females is ALWAYS under Church-approved male ownership – either as exploited chattel property breeding livestock, or as “consecrated virgin”. FACT.

            It’s becoming very obvious that I know more about the Church and its history and teachings than you will ever know. My actual learning began when I was in single-digit years, having been told by my confessor that my call to Holy Orders in my tender years was to be replaced, if I wished to attain a state of Grace, with a desire to breed under Church-approved male ownership, or in the alternative to be a “consecrated virgin” under Church-approved male ownership. FACT.

          • colleen

            Wojtyła did indeed assert that the female “genius” does not reside in the intellect, but in the uterus.

            what a repulsive man.

          • goatini

            Yes, he was. He, and his “Cheney” Ratzinger are responsible for the Church being the vile latter-day cesspool of misogyny and child abuse that it is.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It was he and Ratzi that made the hide the child abusers policy. Repulsive is not the only words that describe Wojytla. Rape apologist. Aider and abetter of kiddyrapists around the world.

          • colleen

            He isn’t a human being. He’s just black.

            Once again. YOU vote for and with men and women who really believe this. Except they believe it about actual born children. You vote for men and women who want to make it legal to murder unarmed children for walking down a street.

          • HeilMary1

            Dr. Marion Sims, father of American gynecology, performed dozens of fistula-repair experiments without anesthesia on a shackled black slave. How’s that for torturing women as throw-away incubators?

          • Ella Warnock

            “You insult men in this equation”

            I rather suppose this is the crux of the problem.

          • fiona64

            Fetal homicide laws only attach as special circumstances when ::wait for it:: an actual *woman* is harmed.

            The rest of your screed is just a bunch of hate-filled hyperbole.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are entitled to be wrong. Only in some states is that the case. Most of the states passing recent laws of this do not require harm to the mother. For example, Alabama’s statute is a stand-alone as to harm.

          • fiona64

            Really? Please explain how a fetus can be murdered under the law without harming the pregnant woman. I’ll wait …

          • Valde

            The Church does not relegate females to breeders.

            Symphysiotomy is a surgical procedure in which the cartilage of the pubic symphysis is divided to widen the pelvis allowing childbirth when there is a mechanical problem. It is also known as pelviotomy,[1] synchondrotomy,,[1] pubiotomy,[2] and Gigli’s operation after Leonardo Gigli, who invented a saw commonly used in Europe to accomplish the operation.

            Symphysiotomy results in a temporary increase in pelvic diameter (up to 2 cm) by surgically dividing the ligaments of the symphysis under local anaesthesia. This procedure should be carried out only in combination with vacuum extraction.
            Symphysiotomy in combination with vacuum extraction can be a
            life-saving procedure in areas of the world where caesarean section is
            not feasible or immediately available. Since this procedure does not
            scar the uterus, the concern of future uterine rupture that exists with cesarean section is not a factor.[6]

            The procedure is not without risk, including urethral and bladder
            injury, infection, pain and long-term walking difficulty. Symphysiotomy should, therefore, be carried out only when there is no safe alternative.[7] It is advised that this procedure should not be repeated due to the risk of gait problems and continual pain.[8]

            Abduction of the thighs more than 45 degrees from the midline may cause tearing of the urethra and bladder.

            In the Republic of Ireland it is estimated that 1,500 women unknowingly and without consent underwent symphysiotomies during childbirth between 1944—1992.[9]
            Some survivors were left with severe lifelong after effects, including
            extreme pain, impaired mobility, incontinence, and depression.[2][9] Then-Minister for Health and Children, Mary Harney, ruled out a review on 19 February 2010.[10]

            However, gathering public outrage eventually resulted in hearings on 15 March 2012. At that time, Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams spoke at length to the press, linking the cause of the symphysiotomy survivors with other civil rights causes:

            These groups include Justice for the Magdalenes, for other victims of institutionalised abuse, including in Bethany Home,[11] and in our Lady of Lourdes Hospital Drogheda,[12][13]
            and victims of symphysiotomy. All these causes are crying out for
            justice. They have been failed by this state. That wrong can be righted.
            We as Teachtaí Dala [legislators], elected by our peers, have a duty to
            make this happen….Given the increasing age of the victims and the
            chronic pain and constant medical intervention they require as a result
            of symphysiotomy, it is urgent that [current Health Minister Dr. James
            Reilly] deal with this now.[9]

            Adams described the procedure as “institutional abuse involving acts of butchery against women.”[9] Eight days later, on 23 March 2012, a County Louth woman subjected to a symphysiotomy was awarded €450,000 by the High Court.[14]

            As of the 10th of July 2012 the amount of €450k has been reduced by the high court to €350k

            In June 2012, details of a draft report on the use of this procedure
            in Ireland was released. The report by Prof. Oonagh Walsh (UCC) found that although symphysiostomies were phased out in most medical institutions across the country, Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital was practising the procedure up until the early 1980s.[15]

            —————

            This barbaric procedure was FORCED on these women, often without anaesthesia, because they were 1) denied contraception 2) denied the right to choose how many children they would have 3) since they didn’t have a choice, the safest thing was to brutally cut open their pelvis so they could have 20 kids before they dropped dead of old age.

          • goatini

            And these “physicians” did this, so that women wouldn’t have any “excuses” to NOT breed until menopause, or until used up, whichever came first.

          • HeilMary1

            Maybe this “procedure” is how DepravedLiarHateRadio got rid of the old brood mare at a Catholic hospital?

          • colleen

            You insult men in this equation as well.

            We recognize that not all men share your dehumanizing and self serving beliefs. just as we recognize that not all men rape children. A high percentage of fundamentalist men have very sick and perverted sexual impulses which harm women and children. I hope to see many of you in jail over the coming decade. This is by no means a dislike of men. Just a dislike of the sorts of men we wouldn’t want to see our daughters dating or allow anywhere NEAR small children.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU MURDERED YOUR WIFE, HYPOCRITE FETAL IDOLATER.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am a Catholic, baptized and confirmed. I back up every word goatini said. I was 12 when another girl told me “If you go to a Catholic hospital and the birth goes wrong, they save the baby and let you die.” I cannot describe how I felt when I heard my sentence.

            PubicFocusRadio will now tell you I am malicious or I lie. I need type only two words to utterly refute it: Savita Halapavanar. Well, I will throw in Sister Margaret McBride for good measure.

            Just so we are clear. I will have hot sex. I will use contraception. If become pregnant, I will gestate or abort as I see fit. Not as YOU see fit. And I will not be consulting anyone about how I accomplish that.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then you too are ignorant on the subject. There are virtually no instances of this so-called fact situation occurring in this country. And the hospital doesn’t make the decision, you do. The hospital does have the right not to perform abortions, but an either/or like you propose, which must be emergent, is almost unheard of.

            I have no problem believing another girl told you, at the age of 12, this. It simply means she was wrong. Certainly you aren’t proposing that teens and pre-teens have the scoop on the facts, are you?

            Those two words, Savita Halappanavar (proper spelling), don’t prove anything that you contend. The Irish bishops addressed this shortly after it came to light:

            – The Catholic Church has never taught that the life of a child in the womb should be preferred to that of a mother. By virtue of their common humanity, a mother and her unborn baby are both sacred with an equal right to life.

            - Where a seriously ill pregnant woman needs medical treatment which may put the life of her baby at risk, such treatments are ethically permissible provided every effort has been made to save the life of both the mother and her baby.

            - Whereas abortion is the direct and intentional destruction of an unborn baby and is gravely immoral in all circumstances, this is different from medical treatments which do not directly and intentionally seek to end the life of the unborn baby. Current law and medical guidelines in Ireland allow nurses and doctors in Irish hospitals to apply this vital distinction in practice while upholding the equal right to life of both a mother and her unborn baby.

            - Some would claim that the unborn baby is less human or less deserving of life. Advances in genetics and technology make it clear that at fertilization a new, unique and genetically complete human being comes into existence. From that moment onwards each of us did not grow and develop into a human being, but grew and developed as a human being.

            As to Sister Margaret McBride, it is another proper decision by Bishop Olmstead. He excommunicated her for performing an abortion, for which there was not the basis for determination of substantial risk. Sister McBride reconciled with the Church, and the excommunication was lifted.

            So now that we are clear, you are welcome to have “hot sex.” It is immoral to use contraception. It is currently legal, but not moral to abort if you see fit. And, you have the right to be wrong.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Anthropologically speaking, Homo sapiens has three strategies for dealing with unwanted reproduction (birth): contraception, abortion and infanticide. All three strategies have been and are practiced around the world. Those who restrict contraceptiion and abortion make infanticide inevitable. You do not occupy the moral high ground.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Sorry, but no. That assumes that people will be evil, therefore we should choose how they are going to be evil. I’m sorry, but it is you that does not occupy the moral high ground.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I point to what humans actually do. What humans do is what is natural and moral for humans. Attempting to legislate or control for what humans “should do” creates chaos and cruelty, especially for women and their children. We have numerous real life examples.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            It is you who assumes that women making the best choices for themselves and their children are evil. You bring the evil to the most sublime and ridiculous gift God gave us, our sexuality. And your evil is exercised disproportionately on women and children. Sex is to the RCC as food is to bulimics/anorexics. You are ill and you insist you are well. Most mentally/emotionally ill cannot see their own dysfunction. And so it goes.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            And I want to add that some people are evil. You may be one of them.

          • HeilMary1

            Wife killer, you are scummier than Gosnell.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Quote: As to Sister Margaret McBride, it is another proper decision by Bishop Olmstead. He excommunicated her for performing an abortion, for which there was not the basis for determination of substantial risk.
            ………………………..
            Lying for Jesus?

            McBride was an administrator and member of the ethics committee at St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center, which is owned by Catholic Healthcare West(Dignity Health).[1] On 27 November 2009, the committee was consulted on the case of a 27-year-old woman who was eleven weeks pregnant with her fifth child and suffering from pulmonary hypertension.[1][3] Her doctors stated that the woman’s chance of dying if the pregnancy was allowed to continue was “close to 100 percent”.{5}

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Quote: Some would claim that the unborn baby is less human or less deserving of life. Advances in genetics and technology make it clear that at fertilization a new, unique and genetically complete human being comes into existence. From that moment onwards each of us did not grow and develop into a human being, but grew and developed as a human being.
            ……………..
            Your fantasies are amazing.
            1. I do not become two people the moment the sperm hit the ova. Stop pretending it is instant baby. This fantasy is not only ridiculous biologically, it it cruel to women who cannot no matter how hard they try gestate a fetus to term.
            2. A fetus is human, it is alive like my arm is alive, it may be unwanted. Do you hate children?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Quote: Whereas abortion is the direct and intentional destruction of an unborn baby . . .

            More fantasy. I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks into the toilet. I poked around in the goo to see. Nothing even vaguely resembling a human or an organism of any kind was in the goo. Stop disappearting the woman’s travail by insisting on instant baaayyyyyyybeeeeeee.

          • goatini

            “There are virtually no instances of this so-called fact situation occurring in this country.”

            Which part of “Sr Margaret McBride” did you miss?

            “And the hospital doesn’t make the decision, you do.”

            Which part of “Sr Margaret McBride” did you miss?

            Oh, and contraception will never be re-criminalized in America.

          • DivineWordRadio

            ht tp ://w ww.ncregister.c om/blog/jimmy-akin/what_are_the_true_facts_regarding_the_abortion_approving_nun

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Anybody who is saying they will give you “true” facts is stupid and lying through its teeth.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I read it. It make your arguments. Your arguments suck. Case closed.

          • HeilMary1

            You creamed the puke!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you. I have had a lot of practice.

          • HeilMary1

            That website lies about everything.

          • HeilMary1

            And the Phoenix mother barely survived her previous pregnancy, and being Catholic, was forced to rely on the criminal malpractice hoax of NFP. Had she been sterilized, an abortion wouldn’t have been needed.

          • HeilMary1

            Liar, McBride obeyed the direct abortion ban by permitting an intact EARLY DELIVERY of a dying/dead 11 week old fetus. She was excommunicated ANYWAY, because pedophile protector Olmstead wanted the fetus to murder its slutty mother! You condemn McBride and the dying mother, but you extol Karen Santorum for the exact same procedure!

            It was immoral of you NOT to use contraception and thereby KILL your wife!

          • HeilMary1

            Amen, sister!

        • expect_resistance

          Applause goatini!!!! Great post!!!!!!!

          (from aka rebellious grrl)

          • goatini

            Hey, Girls To The Front! How the heck are ya? ;-)

          • expect_resistance

            Doing well – Good to see you! Just wanted to let you know my new posting name. – yours in the struggle. Keep up the good fight for women’s rights!

      • Ella Warnock

        “your selfishness puts your sex drive ahead of the lives of others”

        Facepalm.

        What a completely bizarre claim to make.

        • DivineWordRadio

          You are entitled to be wrong.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            As are you.

          • DivineWordRadio

            That’s why I stick to Church teaching. That way I don’t have to worry about if I am.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Bully for you.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Thank you.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            You’re quite welcome.

          • goatini

            You mean, DepravedWordRadio is a bully.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            That too. ;-)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well, he tries. I think he is hysterical.

          • Valde

            You are entitled to be laughed at.

            And we are all laughing at you.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I simply consider the source.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            As do we.

          • Valde

            We aren’t bible thumping morons who:

            1) argue without facts to back us up

            2) refuse to reply to facts when they are presented to us

            You are the fool here, sweetie.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You have no facts backing your position. Medical textbooks agree with my position.

            What are you looking for?

          • fiona64

            Medical textbooks agree with my position.

            Please show me a single, solitary medical textbook that says a zygote is a person. I’ll wait.

          • DivineWordRadio

            How about h tt p: / /w ww. princeton.e du/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

          • fiona64

            Nope, nowhere in there does it say that a zygote is a person.

          • DivineWordRadio

            “Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.”
            [Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]

            “The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
            [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

            “The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are…respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development.”
            [Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]

            “Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed…. The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity.”
            [O'Rahilly, Ronan and Miller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]

          • fiona64

            And … none of those say a zygote is a person, which is the contention you continue to make.

            Words have meanings, you know?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Life does not begin at fertilization. The ova and sperm are alive. Life is a continuum that began eons ago.

          • fiona64

            To DivineWordRadio, in moderation:

            Well, two things here. First, you are saying that life begins at
            *conception,* which is NOT fertilization. Fertilization is
            implantation. And second? Nowhere in your link does it say that a
            zygote is a person.

            You are asserting that a zygote is a person and that science backs you up … and you’re just plain wrong on both counts.

          • Valde

            Then show us.

          • Valde

            And I have just provided you with facts, from an actual biologist;P

          • goatini

            Medical textbooks do not agree that females are defective males, nor that females are doomed to gestational slavery under Church-approved male ownership.

          • HeilMary1

            Medical textbooks prove that you used a fetus to murder your wife.

          • HeilMary1

            He murdered his wife, so I’m not laughing.

          • fiona64

            And you are clearly entitled to be an imbecile. There is no need, however, for you to exercise that right.

            You really are making the anti-choice side look (even more) stupid.

          • goatini

            Ella is correct, and you are wrong.

          • HeilMary1

            You are not entitled to murder your wife with fetuses.

        • HeilMary1

          He put his penis’s pleasure above the right to life of his unwanted brood mare and he got away with murdering her at a Catholic hospital! And he lectures us on our undeserved sex lives?! And he wishes he’d be hired to defend pedophile priests?! This pukey pig is doing his own daughter, just like the incestuous pedophile puke who murdered my best friend with a predicted cancer-causing pregnancy!

        • fiona64

          Wait. He actually said that?

          What a tool.

      • fiona64

        How about baby-murderers?

        If you know anyone who has murdered a baby, contact your local law enforcement agency. Infanticide is a crime.

        • DivineWordRadio

          It is my contention that a fetus is a human life. It is not a chair, or a fish. It can be nothing but a human being. Our callousness toward life, including comments such as yours, indicates the hazard of legalizing abortion.

          • Valde

            Human life and human being are two different things.

            Have you ever seen a zygote?

            Hint: it has human DNA, and it is alive, but it isn’t a person.

            A microscopic genetic blueprint cannot possibly be a person.

            You are scientifically ignorant in the extreme.

          • DivineWordRadio

            No, no more than white men and black men are two different things, one being human, and the other not.

            Hint: A zygote is a human.

            You are scientifically and intentionally ignorant on this subject. The “zygote” is nothing other than human. It isn’t a mouse, and it isn’t a chair. You are using size to measure humanity. Can I could on you to still think that a 2 day old is a human being?

          • fiona64

            The “zygote” is nothing other than human. It isn’t a mouse, and it isn’t a chair.

            I ask this in all sincerity: were you homeschooled?

            Any viviparous vertebrate will produce zygotes; they are not necessarily “human.”

          • HeilMary1

            His “law degree” probably came from fascist Tom Monaghan’s Ave Maria “Law School”.

          • Valde

            Biologist Johnathan Sullivan disagrees with you. And unlike you, he actually knows what a blastocyst is. He uses lots of big sciencey words, so, I will be pleasantly surprised if you can comprehend any of it.

            “You and I contain much, much more information, both
            genetic and otherwise, than a blastocyst. That’s why I can write this column and you can read it, whereas a blastocyst just.. .sits
            there. Indeed, that is the exactly the point of stem cell research:
            the stem cells in the blastocyst have not yet acquired the
            molecular programming required for differentiation, and so they
            remain pluripotent, awaiting the necessary molecular
            signals (the information) that will tell them whether
            to become nerve or muscle, skin or bone.

            Yes, once upon a time we were blastocysts, too. Nothing
            more than a little clump of cells, each of them a snippet of DNA
            surrounded by cytoplasm. But that DNA was later transcribed into RNA, and that RNA was translated into proteins. And some of those proteins were transcription factors that told other cells in the blastocyst what to do, when to divide, where to migrate. Transcription factors regulated the expression of still other transcription factors. Genes were turned on and off with clockwork precision. Some genes were methylated, so they could never be turned on again.

            In other words, the genome and the proteome of the blastocyst were changed as the embryo accumulated molecular information that the blastocyst did not have.

            The embryo became a fetus, with complex orientations of
            tissues–loaded with spatial, genetic, biochemical and mechanical
            information that simply did not exist in the embryo.

            The fetus became a child with a nervous system, and that nervous
            system sucked up information about the world, hard-wiring pathways for vision and movement, learning to make subtle distinctions between this and that, accumulating information that simply did not exist in the fetus.

            In other words, the blastocyst launched a genetic program that both extracted and acquired information. It didn’t start out
            as a human being. It became a human being, with a
            personality, feelings, attitudes and memories, by accumulating
            information that was not there before.

            Equating a blastocyst with a human being is like equating a brand new copy of an inexpensive spreadsheet program with the priceless databases that you’ll eventually build up with that program. It’s no less ridiculous than saying that a blueprint has the same value as a skyscraper–that it is the skycraper.

            No. They are not the same.”

          • HeilMary1

            You didn’t recognize your own wife as human, you wife killer!

          • colleen

            a zygote is not a human. A woman is not a flower pot and our bodies do NOT belong to the state or the Catholic church.

          • colleen

            a zygote is NOT a human being. Most zygotes are naturally sloughed off in the process of menstruation. I don’t see folks like you holding funerals for used Tampax. But, then, I didn’t see you holding funerals for the Magdalene slaves buried in unmarked graves after a lifetime of slavery. The one still alive are so ‘human’ the Church refuses to compensate them just as they do their best to refuse compensation to their other victims.
            Women are so ‘human’ that the church insist we should die rather than be allowed a life saving abortion.

          • fiona64

            t is my contention that a fetus is a human life.

            It’s not a person. Persons have rights under the law. Infants (babies) are persons.

          • DivineWordRadio

            And blacks had no rights under the law in this country at one time either. So, your position is that as long as someone has no rights under the law, they shouldn’t expect to get them?

          • fiona64

            You’re doing a splendid job of proving the point Amanda was making with this blog article, you know.

            A fetus is not a “someone.” It is a *potential* someone. African-Americans slaves were *actual* someones.

            Learn the difference.

          • HeilMary1

            You didn’t allow your wife the right to avoid killer pregnancies.

          • colleen

            neither did women. Women were chattel. You and your church wish to return all women to that status.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Sadly you are so hateful that you would lie about other’s motives to make yourself feel better.

          • Dez

            Yet you’ll use my race to justify your right to force women to abide by your religious beliefs. Ironic.

          • colleen

            Your ‘motives’ do not interest me. As far as I can tell no member of the religious right ever engages in self examination anyway. That’s why you folks have dogma. Your ‘spiritual’ doctrine is derived from pedophiles and pedophile enablers. It is a tainted and corrupt doctrine and it injures many people. If you’re going to post here you ARE going to hear about the inevitable damage that occurs when the religious right demands that everyone without a penis sacrifice everything including our lives for YOUR beliefs. How ridiculous you and your church are.

          • HeilMary1

            Gene Church and his cult would have a bit more credibility if they didn’t leave such a bloody wake of disease, poverty, misogyny, child abuse, religious persecution, and wars.

          • Valde

            All you can do is tone troll.

          • goatini

            Colleen is telling the truth. She stated FACTS.

          • HeilMary1

            He doesn’t believe adult women are human, especially if he wants to trade the old brood mare in for the hot teen babysitter.

          • goatini

            Rights accrue to citizens at birth. FACT.

          • goatini

            Your callousness towards life indicates that females are defective males. As asserted by Aquinas, I believe.

          • HeilMary1

            It is my contention that wives are humans who don’t deserve to be murdered by your refusal to use wife-saving condoms. You should be in jail for using a fetus to murder your wife.

        • HeilMary1

          DWR would NEVER report priests who infanticided their rape victims’ infants as has been reported by survivors of Catholic residential boarding school death camps here and in Canada.

      • expect_resistance

        Oh, bull pucky! I grew up in the Catholic church and women ARE treated like livestock and chattel. But they didn’t let it determine how they lived their lives. My mom never listened to the pope, bishops, etc. She supported birth control and abortion. After my mom had me she was told not to have another child or she might die because of her heart condition. She went on to have my brother and then had a tubal ligation. Thank Goddess she used birth control or she may have died. If she would have listened to the Catholic Church she may have died.

        There is a lot of misogyny in the Catholic Church. This is why I left the church.

        • HeilMary1

          Thank Goddess, indeed!

        • BJ Survivor

          So glad you escaped!

      • HeilMary1

        YOU put your penis’s sex drive above your own wife’s right to life, WIFE AND MOTHER MURDERER! I’ll bet she had a very grisly death that was predicted by doctors.

      • goatini

        I’d say that a person, and a “religion”, that actively desires that women with tragic complications of pregnancy suicide themselves, so they can be easily replaced with a more successful breeder, are the very EPITOME of “utilitarianism, death unless you are useful”. (Not to mention the very epitome of woman-hatred.)

    • DivineWordRadio

      Not at all. We have in mind not devaluing human life.

      Women who cannot have children are not useless, nor are they animals.

      You lie about the Church. The Church sees the inherent value in human life. You propose a utilitarian model, where the value of a person is what they produce.

      Oh, and the arbitrary attempt to draw a distinction “living, breathing” fails on both points. First, the child is living one minute before delivery. And he or she breathes through the umbilical cord, receiving oxygen to survive.

      You make hateful and false statements about Catholics, and want people to believe that you are the caring person?

      • Valde

        You have in mind devaluing women and treating them as mere breeding stock.

        That’s pretty fucking sick.

        • DivineWordRadio

          I have in mind protecting women, from the depression, drug use, and deaths that come from abortion, and for those who would be killed before they can reach adulthood.

          You have nothing to offer except profanity, and a cold heart. It is you that is sick.

          • Valde

            I have in mind protecting women, from the depression, drug use, and
            deaths that come from abortion, and for those who would be killed before
            they can reach adulthood.

            Abortion is 14x safer than pregnancy, and btw, it is not your job to ‘protect’ women.

            Just how the fuck do you think you are?

            Also, every study about how abortion hurts women has been thoroughly debunked.

            You have nothing to offer except profanity, and a cold heart. It is you that is sick.

            Well, I also have facts on my side. You’re just a misogynist creep.

          • liberaldem

            From his many comments DWR doesn’t appear to believe that women are capable of making their own decisions. It’s another manifestation of misogyny.
            I’m sorry for his wife’s death. That tragedy does not,however, give him any right to make decisions for anyone other than himself.

          • HeilMary1

            He thinks he and his pedophile priest posse have the right to maim and murder millions more of us.

          • HeilMary1

            Who murdered his wife.

          • fiona64

            I have in mind protecting women, from the depression, drug use, and deaths that come from abortion

            Citation needed.

          • Valde

            Why do you want to protect MURDERERS?

            BABY KILLERS?

            Why do you care?

            Any sane person would not have sympathy for WOMEN WHO MURDER THEIR BABIES

            Why do you think murder should be safe?

          • goatini

            You have nothing to offer females but indentured servitude under Church-approved male ownership. FACT.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Women need protection FROM people like you.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU MURDERED YOUR WIFE WITH YOUR PENIS, YOU PIG.

          • pajmahal

            Adult women do not need or want your protection.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I didn’t know you spoke for women.

          • Valde

            Well you sure as hell don’t.

          • pajmahal

            I don’t. That’s the entire point. I’m not presumptuous enough to think that women need to be protected from choices.

            Addendum: If you think that women can’t be trusted with their own life choices, why would you want them parenting anyway?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Protected from choices? Would having laws against rape be wrong since they protect rapists from choices?

          • Valde

            A pregnant woman has not committed a crime. Yet you want to reduce her to an object to be used by a fetus. A slave, no less.

            In your world, sex is a crime for which only women must be punished.

            In your world, a woman acting in self-defense, protecting her body from an invader, is no better than a rapist?

            You really are a despicable piece of shit.

          • fiona64

            Another straw man. Really, could you please at least make the effort to develop a cogent argument?

          • HeilMary1

            Your priests don’t obey laws against rape and YOU don’t obey laws against wife murdering. You’re worse than Scott Peterson because you want our government to force all sex to be deadly to women’s health.

          • colleen

            How amusing to see a creature of the religious right, claim to be against rape.
            Under the ‘protection’ of the religious right the maternal mortality rates increase and so do the rape rates. This happens because the religious right never holds adult males responsible for ANYTHING much less the damage y’all do to others with your penises and your hatred.

          • goatini

            And we see that you believe in REWARDING the rapist.

            You’re a rape supporter and enabler. You support the rights of the rapist to select, by violent felony assault, the mother of his child.

            If a rapist succeeds in impregnating his victim, and if his victim is forced into gestational slavery to bear his genetically defective spawn, THE RAPIST HAS WON.

            You support the rights of the rapist to destroy forever, for his innocent victim, the intrinsic dignity of being able to choose for herself when, where, why, how and with whom to start or grow her family.

            You support the rights of the rapist to forever taint the DNA of his innocent victim’s family, by criminal force by the rapist, and by criminal force by those who would force his victim into gestational slavery to bear the rapist’s genetically defective spawn.

            Many mental illnesses are genetically linked, and you support the cruel and inhuman torture of forcing an innocent victim into perpetuating the results of genetic damage.There is NO other crime for which the innocent victim of violent felony assault would NOT be promptly provided the medical care necessary to make the victim as whole again as possible to the state that they were before the crime – except rape. YOU support the forced gestational slavery of an innocent crime victim, to torture her yet again, over and over again, constantly reminded of the crime every second of every day of almost a full year, as a second violent attack and punishment upon the innocent victim, after the commission of the first horrific crime. YOU think innocent crime victims deserve to be doubly punished for being victims of violent sexual felony assault.Leave a message…

          • Valde

            Why do you think you are the one to speak for women?

            Divinely appointed?

          • DivineWordRadio

            The Divine Word is Jesus Christ, not me. I don’t speak for others. I speak policy and truth.

          • Valde

            No, you speak of forcing women to be livestock.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I speak of being open to life. It comes with sex.

          • Valde

            You are open to the enslavement of women to their fertility and their husbands. oh, and to your god, whether people believe in your skydaddy or not.

          • HeilMary1

            You mean open to the TERMINATION OF MATERNAL life, jackass.

          • colleen

            “being open to life” kiilled your wife. I’m sure you can see why deliberately making pregnancy as dangerous as warfare tends to make your notion of ‘life’ fairly repulsive to those who are scheduled to suffer and/or die for what you insist is your conscience. But, then, I’ve never believed you fuckers have consciences.

          • HeilMary1

            You nailed it!

          • DivineWordRadio

            Malpractice, and certain unintended consequences from a federal healthcare law, were responsible for her death. However, we all will die one day, and will have the opportunity to spend all eternity in heaven. I know that she knew this, and would have made this choice. I can’t help it that you do not want to see any children born in the world. It appears that that comes from bitterness on your part.

          • colleen

            you really are delusional if you expect anyone to believe that

          • goatini

            Women are not livestock.

          • BJ Survivor

            No, orgasms come with sex. Well, at least for women with self-respect and partners who care for them. I feel sorry for the women in your life. Pretty sure, based on the nastiness you express toward womankind, that it’s only you who gets off during sexual congress.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’m not the one using this false term.

          • Valde

            No, of course not. You don’t come right out and say it. You just *expect* women to be livestock, and want to *force* them to be.

          • Jennifer Starr

            This woman doesn’t want or desire your protection either. Speaking clearly enough for you now?

          • colleen

            One thing is for sure. You don’t speak for women and you certainly don’t speak for God. The notion that you or your church speak for (or even to) women is absurd. Guys like you kill women, you do not ‘protect’ us.

          • expect_resistance

            I’ll second pajmahal. We don’t want your protection. Stay the hell out of my uterus!

          • goatini

            Misogyny IS cold-hearted profanity of the most vile kind.

            And I’ll join in to confirm that adult women do NOT want or need “protection” from a vile misogynistic forced-birther. Also to confirm that the vast majority of patients who have exercised their civil, human and Constitutional rights to avail themselves of safe, legal pregnancy termination feel sweet, sweet RELIEF.

      • goatini

        Nothing I said about the Roman Catholic Church is “hateful” or “false”. They’re just straight-up FACTS that cannot be disputed.

        • DivineWordRadio

          False. “The Roman Catholic Church already adheres to the Women As Livestock model ” I dispute this, and you are a liar.

          • Valde

            The RCC does not believe women should have access to contraception.

            That sure sounds like women as livestock.

          • fiona64

            Dispute it with a citation.

          • colleen2

            dispute away then. Oh, I forgot. You don’t know how to actually dispute something.

          • goatini

            Wrong, I am 100% accurate and correct that the Roman Catholic Church adheres to the Women As Livestock model. That is a FACT, and it is also truth as observed and lived by a lifelong Catholic woman. Wojtyła himself asserted that the female “genius” resides not in the intellect, but in the uterus. These are FACTS that cannot be disputed.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU MURDERED your own wife and when I addressed you as Mother Killer on Raw Story, I didn’t know how accurate I was!

      • Valde

        A woman died in Ireland because the RCC does not believe a woman’s life should be saved in a pregnancy gone wrong.

        A woman died in the Dominican Republic because the RCC did not think she had the right to cancer treatment. The 8 week old embryo inside her was deemed to be far more important than her life. She died.

        • DivineWordRadio

          Two thousand children died today in the US, predominantly out of convenience. Does that equal the scales?

          • Valde

            Pregnancy is not an inconvenience as has been repeatedly proven to you.

          • fiona64

            Two thousand children died today in the US

            Citation needed. You would think that if two thousand actual children died, someone would have mentioned it.

            And pregnancy is not a mere inconvenience, just so you know.

          • HeilMary1

            He doesn’t care that the US ranks 50th in maternal safety and 30th in infant mortality.

          • colleen

            and millions of women die from complications related to pregnancy and childbirth. It’s really unfortunate that the Catholic church works unceasingly to increase the number of women who die as a result of pregnancy.

          • DivineWordRadio

            As my wife died of childbirth complications, I suspect there is little you can tell me on this subject, Colleen. I have a teenage daughter that came from that birth.

            At to the claim of millions, I am certain it is true, if we mix in time with lack of healthcare, particularly in other countries.

            It is not unfortunate at all that the Church promotes life. It is unfortunate that too many others do not. The Church does not increase the number of women who die. That is hyperbole. It is problems with healthcare, not the pregnancy itself, that is the problem.

          • goatini

            Ah, FINALLY the Nugget Of Truth – and we now see what is underneath all the vicious misogyny. The Roman Catholic Church ideology made a sacrifice of his wife, so he clings to this woman-hating dogma so as to assuage his guilt – “The Church says it was RIGHT for her to die”. Because if he questioned the dogma that led to his wife’s demise, he’d have to admit his own complicity.

          • fiona64

            Yep, that does explain a lot. Notice that he doesn’t seem to care that much about his wife’s demise, because hey … the daughter made it just fine. That is Catholic dogma in action. The sinning woman can just die, because of Eve’s curse … and besides, she was already baptized. The daughter is a new baptism.

            It’s an attitude that’s been present in the Catholic church since medieval times.

          • colleen

            he uses his wife’s death in childbirth to falsely claim expertise on the subject of maternal mortality while trying to garner some pity. Nothing he says or does indicates any regret for her death or any concern for the lives of pregnant women. Everything he advocates for would exacerbate the maternal mortality rate. and he knows this.

          • goatini

            Actually, he uses his wife’s death in childbirth to justify his obsession with trying to ensure that EVERY woman’s life is equally endangered. I notice he hasn’t touched my comments on my 5th grade “sex ed” from the good Sisters of my local parish – in which we were told to always make sure we were brought to a Catholic hospital, especially when we grew up and married, because a non-Catholic hospital would save OUR lives should complications arise in childbirth, and that would be “wrong”. We were told that it was a “great blessing” to die in childbirth, and that doing so would render our immortal souls into an instant State Of Grace. He won’t touch those comments – because he AGREES that women should be allowed to unnecessarily be sacrificed in childbirth. SMFH.

          • colleen

            Goatini,

            That’s very insightful.I suppose that’s why he lacks regret .

            As for your report, that is not sex education for children, that is child abuse. It teaches little girls that they are worthless and it teaches boys…well, DivineWordRadio is a great example of what it teaches boys.

          • goatini

            Yes, Catholicism does teach little girls that they are worthless, except as chattel under Church-approved male ownership – either as breeders, or as consecrated virgins. But always as property of a male.

            DWR’s parish forbids female altar servers.

          • Arekushieru

            Yet, they forget to point out that a fetus hasn’t been born so therefore is not living in a State of Sin, so how is it NOT a “great blessing” for their immortal souls to be rendered into an instant State of Grace??? OOOPPPS.

          • goatini

            If I had a nickel for every time I heard current un-priest, and active hunting, Harley, fishing, and self-medicating enthusiast John Corapi (aka The Black Sheep Dog) blather on about “The Sin Of Eve” back when he was still riding high on EWTN, I’d, well, be able to buy a Harley.

          • HeilMary1

            Corapi is living with 2 hookers. Wonder what kind of “baby-killing” contraception the threesome fornicators use? Maybe they depend on “exorcist”/groper IRreverend Tom Euteneuer, fired from Human Life International, to scare the fetuses with incantations to miscarry.

          • goatini

            He doesn’t care about Wife #1′s demise because she was an unsuccessful breeder, to be culled from the herd. Wife # 2 has popped out **6** more. Lucky successful breeder! She gets to LIVE.

          • HeilMary1

            Don’t you know? Catholic trophy wives, like adulteress Calista Gingrich, are allowed to have abortions, use contraceptives and do blow jobs to keep their child-free figures. The first wife probably outlived her looks due to breeding, so she had to go the pedophile priest approved way.

          • fiona64

            Holy *crap.* While I support everyone’s reproductive decisions, I have to say that I personally find having so many kids repugnant and environmentally irresponsible. The difference between me and DWR is that I’m not out trying to legislatively decide people’s family size. Also unlike Mr. DWR, I can find something personally repugnant and still support another person’s right to do it.

          • HeilMary1

            When female fetus-caused face cancer continued to rot my best friend’s face, her husband stole their daughter and molested her. DWR probably has a similar crime plan for his daughter and the babysitter.

          • Valde

            Where is HM when you need her?

            She needs her own bat signal!

          • HeilMary1

            I’m always playing catch-up!

          • HeilMary1

            I posted on Raw Story that he should be in jail and now we know his crime: he used a fetus as a fist to legally murder her for his pedophile cult.

          • colleen

            On the contrary, there appears to be a great deal you can learn. Start with the fact that, In part BECAUSE the woman murdering Catholic church owns 1/3 of the hospitals in this country the US ranks 42 in maternal mortality rates. Which is to say that 41 other countries…all of which spend less per capita on health care, all of which have much smaller economies, do a better job of helping pregnant women survive their pregnancy.
            The Church does not promote life. the Church promotes human sacrifice and all of the sacrifices are women.

          • fiona64

            the US ranks 42

            Actually, we’re now #50 in maternal mortality (I posted a link yesterday).

          • colleen

            Thank you. the maternal mortality rate has increased since I last looked that up

          • BJ Survivor

            Say it like it is, sister! i am so, so, so fucking sick of forced-birther catholics trying to claim the high ground with their relentless misogyny and lies.

          • Valde

            Even with perfect healthcare women still die.

            And no, it is not always possible to save both the fetus and the woman.

          • goatini

            You mean, your FIRST wife. That “Catholic Divorce” thing always works out well… for the MEN.

          • HeilMary1

            Exactly! And my Catholic Munchausen by Proxy mom’s solution to RCC-blessed wife murder was to disfigure me instead as her permanent abstinence excuse. I’ll bet DWR was warned that the pregnancy would kill her, but he wanted to marry his half-age mistress/babysitter, just like Erik Prince of Blackwater.

          • goatini

            Wifey # 2 popped out **6** more, so you may be right.

          • HeilMary1

            You should be in jail for using a fetus to murder her. I knew you were a murdering misogynist who exploits fetuses to do the dirty work.

          • pajmahal

            I think it’s good that you and your wife were allowed to make a choice that suited your own set of values. It doesn’t give you the right to tell other women or couples how to live their lives. Not all of us are members of the Catholic church or interested in signing up.

          • DivineWordRadio

            It is solely a religious question. Is murder so we are religious question? It is a public policy question, for which, and others, will continue to stand up and be heard.

          • pajmahal

            That was a syntactic mess. I have no idea what you were trying ot say.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Too bad. Since this is a public policy question more than a religious question, you can expect that I and others will continue to speak up.

          • fiona64

            Could you please parse this into English?

          • colleen

            again. abortion and the use of effective contraception is not murder. It IS murder to deny a woman a lifesaving abortion. I do not believe your 1st wife wanted to die. I believe you and your church murdered her.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So do you think that every woman should be forced by law to die for her pregnancy?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You wrote: Is murder so we are religious question? On behalf of myself and everyone else reading this, I simply have one word in reply. Huh? Either you need to fill in a few missing words or simply reword the sentence, as it makes absolutely no sense in the context of your paragraph.

          • Arekushieru

            Wrong. Pregnancy is risky, which is WHY women still die from it even with the best healthcare in the WORLD. Telling women, from your smug, self-satisfied SAFE position as a MALE, that they must risk life and limb to bring a pregnancy to term is NOT promoting life. It actually makes your Church a DEATH-affirming CULT.

          • HeilMary1

            Dead mothers can’t report pedophile priests.

          • goatini

            And those types actively seek out the motherless (or fatherless) children to exploit and abuse. Read “The Church That Forgot Christ” by Jimmy Breslin for EXACTLY how this MO plays out in priests who abuse children.

          • goatini

            Keeping a job, continuing with an education, choosing to be able to care for one’s actual living, breathing children, and choosing to save one’s own life, are NOT “conveniences”. And ALL reasons that a female US citizen exercises her civil, human and Constitutional rights to privacy and personal bodily autonomy are NONE of anyone else’s business.

          • Valde

            You said you cared about women. Clearly, you do not. Since you support the RCC policy of letting women die from pregnancy.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Savita was miscarrying a 17 week old fetus, far too young to live outside the womb, and she had a raging infection. Yet the hospital deemed that inducing labor would be an abortion and wrong as long as there was a fetal heartbeat. So Savita died and the fetus died with her. Two deaths. One life to save and they couldn’t even manage that. And that’s pro-life how?

          • BJ Survivor

            Because women’s lives matter not to the Catholic and other fundie churches. Their only value is as breeding livestock.

          • Jennifer Starr

            John Smeaton of the SPUC said that the hospital should have removed Savita’s uterus, therefore satisfying the archaic principle of ‘double effect’. So the choices in his mind were either to let her die for the sin of not being able to carry a pregnancy to term or to let her live but rob her of the ability to carry any more children. Disgusting.

          • Valde

            Really? That’s some fucked up shit.

            A forced birther over on newsbusters told me that even uterus removal was wrong, because only the *results* matter, not the intent.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sick, that’s all these people are, is sick. Willing to let a woman suffer or die for not being able to carry a pregnancy to term.

          • goatini

            Yes, because livestock that cannot successfully breed should be mutilated. How “Christian” of them.

          • Arekushieru

            Pregnancy is not merely ‘convenient’. Taking Amanda’s analogies and applying them, here, that means you are saying that rape is a mere walk-in-the-park. DISGUSTING. SFS.

      • Amanda Kazarian

        But your church doesn’t mean anything to me and your god is as valid as the tooth fairy in my eyes. So now what?

        • DivineWordRadio

          Then, I suppose we will continue to get laws set aside, and on the books to stop people from killing their offspring.

          And, we will work to show the rest of the American public how ghastly abortion really is.

          • Valde

            Otherwise known as ‘laws to enslave women’

          • goatini

            But since there is nothing “ghastly” in the slightest about a safe, LEGAL outpatient medical procedure that is LEGAL, and did I mention it’s LEGAL;

            and since “offspring” must, well, spring off, as in BE BORN to be “offspring”;

            just more vicious lies and BS from the vicious misogynist forced-birther.

          • Amanda Kazarian

            Those laws wont pass if your views arent valid to the majority.

            You can make a reality show or make effective means of contraception easier to access to reduce abortion rates. The solution is so easy if you just stop and think. But thats right, you just want everyone to follow your rule book.

          • colleen

            Why not start with your miserable selves. Please stop emotionally, physically and sexually abusing children in your care and enabling those who do. I understand that you work to silence the victims of rape. You should probably run that one by the atrophied and diminutive thing you call a ‘conscience’. asshole.

      • Jennifer Starr

        I respect your right to your beliefs. However, I would like your church, your pope and his edicts to please stay out of my personal life.

        • DivineWordRadio

          Would you like for us to stay out of your life when we stand against rape, or your own murder, or your being robbed? Why is it that we are to stay out of your “personal life” when you choose to end the life of your child?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry, I didn’t realize that my taxes paid for a church police.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Now you do.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope sorry, doesn’t happen. I pay taxes for my regular city police. Your ‘church’ has squat to do with law enforcement. You don’t even want your child abusing priests to be arrested by secular law enforcement because you imagine they’re ‘special in some way.

          • fiona64

            ROFLMAO. Our taxes do not pay for “church police.”

            I guess you’ll just have to tear up your “When I grow up, I want to be Cardinal Torquemada” essay, and start again.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Additionally, I trained in law enforcement. If I’d gone into that field it probably would’ve been me protecting you, not the other way around. I know that probably hurts your male pride, but that it what it is.

          • Valde

            Way to disobey natural law.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, the mere idea of a lady cop would turn this guy’s world upside-down. :)

          • Valde

            meh, you’d just use your gun to kill baybeeeeeeeeez!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Bizarrely enough, this guy probably actually believes that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well, I always thought that natural law was a crock, anyway :)

          • fiona64

            One day, an anti-choicer will present an argument that is *not* a straw man. On that occasion, I will alert the media and serve cake.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Mmm, cake. I’ll definitely be there!

          • fiona64

            Don’t hold your breath; there’s only cake if there are no straw men.

          • goatini

            No children involved in safe, legal pregnancy termination, because all children, ever, have already been born. You need to stop lying.

          • HeilMary1

            Because fetuses maim and murder their hosts. ALL abortions are medical self-defense.

          • colleen

            The religious right does not “stand against rape”. If we relied on the religious right and the republican p[arty to protect women and chiuldren against rape we would have 9 out of 10 children sexually abused by the time they’re 18, the AOC at 12 (with parental permission) and rape redefined so that 75% of rapes are not crimes. The religious right works hard to swell the ranks of rapists….you raise so many. It’s what happens when you teach men to despise women because Jesus would have wanted them to.

          • BJ Survivor

            You are trying to claim that your vile church takes a stand against rape! You must think we are as stupid and self-denigrating as the women who take up with you. I assure you, we are not.

      • fiona64

        You are welcome to hold any religious belief you so desire — as am I. The difference between us is that you want to create a theocracy based on your own religion — and force other people to live by it.

        It must vex you mightily that it will never happen in the USA.

        You “devalue life” the minute you insist that a born, sapient, sentient woman risk her life and limb to gestate an unwanted pregnancy. You make her nothing but the meat around a uterus.

        Ugh.

        • DivineWordRadio

          So, did we have a theocracy prior to 1973?

          As I’m not looking for a theocracy, but to protect the most defenseless among us, I’m not vexed at all.

          You devalue life the minute you insist that the offspring of a woman be torn apart, limb by limb, or that a sharp object be inserted into the offspring’s brain stem. Pregnancy is not an illness, or an unexpected consequence of sex. You describe nothing but a sick form of utilitarianism.

          • Valde

            You are looking to devalue women and treat them as mere livestock.

            You devalue life the minute you insist that the offspring of a woman be
            torn apart, limb by limb, or that a sharp object be inserted into the
            offspring’s brain stem

            More histrionics from you. You’re an ignorant dumbfuck. 91% of abortions occur before 13 weeks. 61% before 9 weeks. When it is the size of a jellybean. There is no ‘sharp object’ shoved into a ‘brain stem’. Late term abortions – all 1.5% of them, are for medical emergency.

            Pregnancy is not an illness

            Normal, frequent
            or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness
            common from first weeks)

            altered appetite
            and senses of taste and smell

            nausea and vomiting
            (50% of women, first trimester)

            heartburn and indigestion

            constipation

            weight gain

            dizziness and light-headedness

            bloating, swelling,
            fluid retention

            hemmorhoids

            abdominal cramps

            yeast infections

            congested, bloody
            nose

            acne and mild skin
            disorders

            skin discoloration
            (chloasma, face and abdomen)

            mild to severe backache
            and strain

            increased headaches

            difficulty sleeping,
            and discomfort while sleeping

            increased urination
            and incontinence

            bleeding gums

            pica

            breast pain and
            discharge

            swelling of joints,
            leg cramps, joint pain

            difficulty sitting,
            standing in later pregnancy

            inability to take
            regular medications

            shortness of breath

            higher blood pressure

            hair loss

            tendency to anemia

            curtailment of ability
            to participate in some sports and activities

            infection
            including from serious and potentially fatal disease

            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
            non-pregnant women, and
            are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

            extreme pain on
            delivery

            hormonal mood changes,
            including normal post-partum depression

            continued post-partum
            exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
            – major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
            fully recover)

            Normal, expectable,
            or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse
            in younger women)

            loose skin

            permanent weight
            gain or redistribution

            abdominal and vaginal
            muscle weakness

            pelvic floor disorder
            (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
            and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
            incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
            the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

            changes to breasts

            varicose veins

            scarring from episiotomy
            or c-section

            other permanent
            aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
            by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

            increased proclivity
            for hemmorhoids

            loss of dental and
            bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

            newer research indicates
            microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
            mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications
            and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy

            spousal/partner
            abuse

            hyperemesis gravidarum

            temporary and permanent
            injury to back

            severe
            scarring
            requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)

            dropped (prolapsed)
            uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
            pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
            and enterocele)

            pre-eclampsia
            (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
            with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

            eclampsia (convulsions,
            coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

            gestational diabetes

            placenta previa

            anemia (which
            can be life-threatening)

            thrombocytopenic
            purpura

            severe cramping

            embolism
            (blood clots)

            medical disability
            requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
            many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
            or baby)

            diastasis recti,
            also torn abdominal muscles

            mitral valve stenosis
            (most common cardiac complication)

            serious infection
            and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

            hormonal imbalance

            ectopic pregnancy
            (risk of death)

            broken bones (ribcage,
            “tail bone”)

            hemorrhage
            and

            numerous other complications
            of delivery

            refractory gastroesophageal
            reflux disease

            aggravation of pre-pregnancy
            diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
            of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
            prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

            severe post-partum
            depression and psychosis

            research now indicates
            a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
            including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

            research also now
            indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
            in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

            research also indicates
            a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
            and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but
            serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy

            cardiopulmonary
            arrest

            magnesium toxicity

            severe hypoxemia/acidosis

            massive embolism

            increased intracranial
            pressure, brainstem infarction

            molar pregnancy,
            gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced
            cancer)

            malignant arrhythmia

            circulatory collapse

            placental abruption

            obstetric fistula

            More
            permanent side effects:

            future infertility

            permanent disability

            death.

          • fiona64

            You devalue life the minute you insist that the offspring of a woman be
            torn apart, limb by limb, or that a sharp object be inserted into the
            offspring’s brain stem.

            How completely ridiculous and histrionic. At the point where most abortions occur, the conceptus is *indistinguishable from menses* absent a high-power microscope and an advanced biology degree.

            Pregnancy is not an illness, or an unexpected consequence of sex. You describe nothing but a sick form of utilitarianism.

            As I have been pregnant, I suggest you STFU about what pregnancy is or is not. It is NOT a state of wellness. There are many ICD codes that show this to be true. Pregnancy causes permanent physiological changes to women, and it kills them. If a woman chooses to be pregnant, I support her. If she chooses not to be pregnant, I support her.

            You view children as a punishment, obviously (“the consequences”). How “pro-life” of you.

            What I support is the rather revolutionary idea that women continue to enjoy their right of privacy when it comes to their medical decisions … and the same right to bodily autonomy that *men* have. How many men’s health decisions do you see being voted on? None? Yeah, I thought not.

            Go to your room and color while the adults talk.

          • goatini

            More vile projection from the lying projectionist. Asserting that females are nothing but chattel property breeding livestock IS UTILITARIANISM. Also exploitation, discrimination and misogyny.

      • Arekushieru

        If you see an ‘inherent value’ in fetuses, you DON’T see an inherent value in women. SFS.

        They don’t breathe. Breathing occurs through the lungs. The umbilical cord provides blood to their CELLS, not air to their LUNGS. PLEASE learn to biology, antis.

  • Valde

    hahah I just checked DWR’s history, this is great:

    Yeah, dream on. Try reading “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization,” by Thomas E Woods, Jr. PhD.

    Sorry this world of yours is all that you think you have.

    I know the Church’s history, including the fact that we would not have Western Civilization were it not for the Church.

    The evil that people have done in the name of religion changes
    nothing. No matter what evil might be done, Christ founded the Church,
    and has made it infallible on issues of Faith and Morals.

    I’d suggest that it is not the lack of condoms, but the lack of morals
    that comes with using condoms, that brings about the problems with AIDS.

    Wow!

    • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

      Pffft, figures. He’s just got all kinds of credibility, doesn’t he?

      • DivineWordRadio

        I’m happier with my credibility than those who callously suggest that a life has no value until the minute it takes its first breath outside the womb (and perhaps not even then). There was a time men, and women, would have been ashamed to make such a claim.

        • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

          Good for you.

        • Valde

          You have zero credibility because everything you say is a lie.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’m not lying. You are opposed to protection of humanity.

          • fiona64

            Oh, look … hyperbole! Because no anti-choicer has ever tried that tack.

            Oh, wait …

          • DivineWordRadio

            There’s been nothing presented by you but hyperbole.

          • fiona64

            Really? Please show me the hyperbole I’ve presented. Particularly the hyperbole that I’ve not backed up with references. I’ll wait.

            ::crickets::

            Yeah, that’s what I thought.

          • goatini

            Just more of the same nonsense projection. of your own lying BS on to the innocent opposition. Each and every one of your posts is nothing but radical fundamentalist misogynistic theocratic forced-birther hyperbole. FACT.

          • Valde

            You are opposed to women’s rights.

          • goatini

            You are opposed to protection of ACTUAL humanity, e.g., living, breathing WOMEN.

          • colleen

            If you just included women in your definition of ‘humanity’ then you would not be so eager to protect us by killing us.

        • colleen2

          you have no credibility

          • DivineWordRadio

            My credibility to you is irrelevant.

          • fiona64

            Then why are you here?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Because there may be someone who accidentally comes here and would believe your position if they didn’t hear the truth.

          • fiona64

            Except for one problem, sweetie. You haven’t said anything factual since you got here.

          • colleen

            No, your beliefs are irrelevant. Your lack of honesty, integrity and credibility has been firmly established.

        • goatini

          And those who callously suggest that a living, breathing person with a womb has no value until it’s able to successfully breed – and even then, it has less value than any MALE – what of them?

          • colleen

            Why, those are good moral Republicans.

        • caroza

          No, pro-choice women understand that already-born people with lives, families, commitments have more value than an embryo which knows nothing yet, and that sacrificing a living person for an embryo is an obscenity. I don’t give a fuck what men think about it, because they don’t carry the consequences. Especially not some celibate old fart in a dress who has nothing better to do than rave about his imaginary friend, and who ought to be on trial in the ICC for the crimes against humanity committed by his “church”.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then they do not understand. Your hatred is obvious. That is truly sad. You lash out, and lie, but that is the consequences of your “choice.” God bless.

          • colleen

            “Your hatred is obvious”

            You sure project a lot.

          • fiona64

            God bless

            Which we all know is zealot-speak for “fuck you.”

          • Dez

            Yup. The appropriate response as an atheist I give is that “I will think for you.”

          • HeilMary1

            LOL!

          • Valde

            We dont’ hate you hun.

            We just happen to believe that you’re a fucking moron.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Which only establishes the lack of intelligence on your part.

          • Valde

            Says the dumbass who can’t understand SCIENCE when it is presented to him, and wouldn’t know what a FACT was if it hit him upside the head.

          • HeilMary1

            And has no remorse for being the perpetrator of his wife’s death!

          • goatini

            Your hatred of independent, autonomous female US citizens as full participants in society is obvious.

          • DivineWordRadio

            It isn’t hatred to speak the truth. And the truth is that pregnancy is a potential biological consequence of sexual relations.

          • HeilMary1

            Then you should be in jail for exploiting deadly childbirth to murder your wife. You’d sing a different tune about condoms and abortions if wife killers like you got castrated and jailed whenever their brood mares died in childbirth! Fair is fair.

          • goatini

            Sexual congress is not a contract to gestate, and pregnancy is not a contract to carry it to term.

          • HeilMary1

            Likewise, living in a house and possibly forgetting to lock the doors or windows is no invitation for robbers and rapists to sneak in.

    • fiona64

      I know the Church’s history, including the fact that we would not have Western Civilization were it not for the Church.

      WTF? Seriously? I guess this individual has never heard of the Greeks …

      • DivineWordRadio

        Seriously. I have heard of the Greeks, and you have because the Church provided their teaching to the rest of the Western world.

        • Valde

          The RCC was responsible for the Dark Ages in Europe.

          • DivineWordRadio

            First, there is no such thing as “the Dark Ages.” Secondly, the Church is responsible for what we know about science, the university system, and, yes, women’s rights.

          • fiona64

            You have obviously been homeschooled. There was most assuredly a period we refer to as the “dark ages.”

            http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/151663/Dark-Ages

            And sweetie? The first university in the *world* predates the Catholic church by a long chalk. http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jan/oldest-university-unearthed-in-egypt#.UjiaQ3_udDk

            It really must be painful to be so frequently, absolutely incorrect about so many things.

          • Valde

            Citation needed.

            PS Women had more rights under the Roman empire than under Christianity.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Every history book I’ve ever read has stated pretty conclusively, that yes, there was a ‘dark ages’.

          • colleen

            Thank God for the unending Inquisitions. They saved Western Civilization. Some villages killed all but one or two of their women. I’m sure they managed to cleanse most of Europe of uppity women. Perhaps the Church killed those women because the Church enjoys killing women. And the Cathars….the church murdered them, every last one. Genocide for Jesus. ya.

          • Dez

            Also the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of Africans done by religionists.

          • HeilMary1

            And notice how the Vatican always blames others for its own atrocities? The Vatican-genocided Cathars were probably direct descendants of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, and yet the lying Vatican loves blaming the murder of Jesus and his followers on Jews.

          • Valde

            I suppose you’ve never heard of the Library of Alexandria.

          • HeilMary1

            Muslims provided the West with advanced math and science, but the RCC always takes credit for what it steals from its executed victims.

          • colleen

            I think it quite possible that you are posting from another planet where the rules of biology, the facts of history and basic reality are vastly different.

          • HeilMary1

            And the only thing that saved Europe were the plagues that vastly reduced overpopulated serf competition for slave jobs. Survivors could demand living wages, just like contraception users here could demand better wages because they had fewer competitors. Thom Hartmann has made this point on his show The Big Picture.

        • fiona64

          you have because the Church provided their teaching to the rest of the Western world.

          Wait. Just … a …. minute.

          BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          Thank you, so, so much. I needed a good laugh today.

          Really? You think no one would have heard of the Greeks and their teachings without papal assistance?

          You are too, too funny.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I understand your desire to retain your ignorance on the subject. It let’s you sleep nights, right?

          • fiona64

            Oh, sweetie. Do you really think that you are that much smarter than grown-ups?

        • ellid

          *head desk*

          No, you arrogant jerk, that would be the ROMANS, long before they were Catholic, and the BYZANTINES, who were Greek Orthodox, not Catholic, or the MUSLIMS, who weren’t even Christian.

    • DivineWordRadio

      Thank you.

      • Valde

        Yes. Proving once again that you’re a bible thumping misogynist creep.

        And ignorant to boot.

        • DivineWordRadio

          Name calling. The tool of the ignorant.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Says the ignorant tool.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I make my point.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Are you sure?

          • Valde

            You have made the point that you’re an ignorant fool.

        • goatini

          To be fair, Catholics aren’t historically known for bible-thumping. In the past, they preferred that the Faithful NOT read the bible, but instead get the Magisterium-permitted content read to them by the Mass celebrant, and get the rest of the Magisterium-permitted content via rote memorization of the Catechism. However, these days, the so-called “New Evangelization” movement in the Church now encourages lots and lots of bible study, heretofore largely absent from the traditional Catholic worship. This is a deliberate attempt to rope in Protestants, and the non-denominational “Christian” practitioners, to make the Roman Catholic Church seem more “familiar” to those who were brought up on bible-thumping. FACT. (I listen to ALL the programming that is also aired on so-called “Divine Word Radio”, on my local Immaculate Heart Radio affiliate, so I’m completely hip to the latter-day RCC nonsense this guy is pushing here.)

          • Valde

            I listen to ALL the programming that is also aired on so-called “Divine
            Word Radio”, on my local Immaculate Heart Radio affiliate, so I’m
            completely hip to the latter-day RCC nonsense this guy is pushing here.)

            You have my deepest sympathies.

          • goatini

            Well, I listen to it to get their bottom line PR BS line to whatever atrocity they’re supporting this week.

            I’d say the absolute low moment was a panel of celibate “men” coldly defending the indefensible Olmstead of Phoenix, and attempting to justify his belief that a young mother with a family of already living, breathing children should be left in depraved neglect – in a *hospital*, which is supposed to SAVE her life – to perish for a 12-week fetus that threatened her life. It was chilling.

            I’d say the best moment in recent memory was the EWTN Morning Zoo attempts at commentary, when they were tossed into utter unpredictable chaos after Ratzinger abdicated before he could be prosecuted. It was hilarious.

          • HeilMary1

            I think there is an EWTN station in Maryland, but I haven’t tried to sully myself with such pompous pedophile poison.

          • goatini

            The one who’s hardest to take is the vicious little self-loathing shrew, Teresa Tomeo. She’s a nasty piece of work on the radio, and her books are poorly written apologia dreck. It’s obvious that she couldn’t make the grade in secular media, so she coldly went all out to hypocritically carve herself a little fiefdom in Catholic radio. I can tell from her voice that she really doesn’t believe at least half of what she spews, but she likes the power and the fawning adoration of the Wives Of St Stepford more than she likes personal integrity. Just an awful person.

          • HeilMary1

            I don’t want to imagine.

          • goatini

            Oh, a down vote! Must be from someone who thinks that the young mother in extremis with a doomed pregnancy should have been left in depraved neglect to die, in a facility that is supposed to SAVE her life.

    • HeilMary1

      Yes, he posted that garbage on Raw Story.

  • Valde

    I am just gonna put this up here so everyone can read it. DivineWordRadio is claiming to be more intelligent, more knowledgeable, and generally, morally superior to everyone here.

    However, he:

    1) refuses to validate any of his claims

    2) ignores responses which do invalidate his claims

    This is why not one person here will take his lying ass seriously. He is just a bloviating bible thumping misogynist creep.

    Oh, and ignorant. I forgot ignorant. However, that is painfully obvious to everyone who is currently laughing at him:)

    • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

      And we cold-hearted bitches just aren’t displaying a proper amount of respect for his superiority, nor are we displaying shame in our fallen womanhood.

      Somehow I think I’ll still be able to sleep well tonight. ;-)

      • Valde

        I like it here cuz we can swear:)

        • DivineWordRadio

          Yes, beats intellectual discourse.

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, as soon as you provide something intellectual to the discussion, I promise that we’ll acknowledge it.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Sweetie, I’d frankly be worried if I were you. Public opinion is shifting in my direction, and not yours. And, after all, too many of you have chosen to have few, if any, children, because they are an inconvenience. Young people can see abortion for what it is.

          • Valde

            Only in the red states. Where btw, women still use contraception and have abortions. They just don’t talk about it.

            Abortion access and approval is INCREASING in blue states however.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nationwide. Your numbers are shrinking.

          • fiona64

            Refuted. With data and a citation.

          • fiona64

            Public opinion is shifting in my direction, and not yours.

            What a laughable little boy you are. http://www.gallup.com/poll/160058/majority-americans-support-roe-wade-decision.aspx

            Quote: Forty years after the Supreme Court issued its opinion in Roe v. Wade, significantly more Americans want the landmark abortion decision kept in place rather than overturned, 53% to 29%

            Just a little mathematical tip for you: 53 is a lot more than 29.

            How many children a given woman decides to have is no one’s business but hers. I may think Michelle Duggar is a nutjob (and rest assured that I do) for having 20 kids — so far — but I’m not out legislating that she be forced to not have any more.

            One child is enough for me, thanks. He’s 27 and serving in the Navy. I’m old enough to be your mother, and definitely old enough to know just how ignorant you are.

            I used to be a bible-thumping anti-choicer, too. Then I got out of high school and into the real world, and discovered that life was not the simplistic, black-and-white thing that I thought it was. You, too, will make this discovery. Absolutely, 100 percent guaranteed.

          • HeilMary1

            I went through a similar anti-choice phase because I was clueless about the medical risks women face. And I’ll bet DWR has zero kids.

          • goatini

            He has 1 for which Wife # 1 was (evidently) unnecessarily sacrificed in a Catholic hospital. And he’s not all that broken up about that, because Wife # 2 has popped out **6** more. Lucky successful breeder! She gets to LIVE.

          • colleen

            “Public opinion is shifting in my direction, and not yours.”

            another lie. and one that is easily refuted.

          • HeilMary1

            Young people can’t afford a $5 million c-section flesh eating bacteria infection that caused a young mother to lose her husband, insurance, employment, and vital body parts. Young people are grossed out by obstetric fistulas and the face-eating female fetus-triggered cancer that killed my best friend. Young people have more self-preservation sense than your pedophile cult would have you believe.

          • colleen

            Please. You have not demonstrated any capacity at all for ‘intellectual discourse’.

          • HeilMary1

            Well you sure don’t offer any intellectual arguments. Dark ages catechism recitations don’t count.

      • DivineWordRadio

        There are cold hearted women here, but I wouldn’t use the term bitch. Perhaps because I have more respect for them than you do Ella.

        And given your darkened intellect, it will not surprise me that you sleep like a baby. Uh oh. Probably not a good analogy here.

        • fiona64

          “Sleep like a baby” is a stupid phrase, given that infants seldom sleep through the night and spend a lot of time screaming. Tell me, DWR, do you sleep well, knowing what kind of a misogynistic cretin you have demonstrated yourself to be — by your own words?

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Good point, fiona. I do sleep better than the average infant, that’s true!

          • DivineWordRadio

            I don’t sleep well, knowing that there are those like you out there who see nothing wrong in killing children. But I sleep well knowing I’m doing what I can. As I am not the misogynist, that doesn’t bother me at all. You toss misogyny like homophobia. It quickly means nothing except that someone disagrees with you.

          • Valde

            I didn’t sleep well, because I am being terrorized by a large pack rat that refuses to eat the treats I have left for him.

            However, once he is gone, I will sleep well, because I will be laffing my ass off at you.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Hopefully you aren’t referring to your own child.

          • Valde

            Is that supposed to be funny?

          • DivineWordRadio

            I simply didn’t understand what you were referring to.

          • Valde

            That’s because you’re a dumbass.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Which shows how little you have to offer.

          • Valde

            I have offered science and facts, which you are incapable of refuting.

            Because you’re a dumbfuck.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You did not offer anything but allegations. And profanity. Very ladylike.

          • Valde

            I just offered the science. for the second time.

            Do try to keep up, fuckwit.

          • fiona64

            Oh, the tone argument … in which a high school boy demands that women be “ladylike” to suit his delicate sensibilities.

            What a fucking joke.

            And it’s no one’s fault but yours that you couldn’t understand what you read. Okay, well, maybe it’s the fault of your homeschooling mommy. I understand that there is a shocking illiteracy problem amongst homeschooled youth these days.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            She has more to offer than you do.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You have the right to be wrong.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            As do you.

          • Valde

            Is this asshat 5 years old?

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            I guess so, “I’m rubber, you’re glue, blah blah blah.”

          • colleen

            this is what he thinks of as ‘intellectual discourse’. Doesn’t he just make you want to go to Church next Sunday to feel the love……

          • HeilMary1

            He’s certainly infantile in personality and obedience to his genocidal cult.

          • Valde

            If you check all the comments, I had been wondering when you’d show up:P

          • HeilMary1

            Sorry to be late for this battle, but I was fighting him elsewhere. My link won’t post, but Raw Story had an article about a lesbian teacher fired from a Minnesota Catholic school.

          • fiona64

            Did your mommy teach you that phrase? You seem awfully fond of it.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I have heard people use the term pack rat to describe a person.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Why would she be?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Given her apparent lack of caring for children, I wouldn’t know.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            I suspect there are any number of things you don’t know.

          • Valde

            He doesn’t know what a ‘fact’ is

            He also doesn’t know what ‘science’ is

          • DivineWordRadio

            Which shows you don’t know much either.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            Ah, yes, the nyah nyah nyah reply. It’s marvelous!

          • Valde

            Again, because I feel sorry for dumb animals. Here are my FACTS:

            1) The zygote actually overpowers the woman’s immune system in the same way a parasite does. Isn’t that interesting!?

            Here are some scientific findings:

            Further investigation revealed that placental NKB contained
            the molecule phosphocholine, which is used by the parasitic nematode
            worm to avoid attack by the immune system of the host in which it lives.

            During implantation, fetally derived cells (trophoblast) invade the
            maternal endometrium and remodel the endometrial spiral arteries into
            low-resistance vessels that are unable to constrict. This invasion has
            three consequences. First, the fetus gains direct access to its mother’s
            arterial blood. Therefore, a mother cannot reduce the nutrient content
            of blood reaching the placenta without reducing the nutrient supply to
            her own tissues. Second, the volume of blood reaching the placenta
            becomes largely independent of control by the local maternal
            vasculature. Third, the placenta is able to release hormones and other
            substances directly into the maternal circulation. Placental hormones,
            including human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human placental
            lactogen (hPL), are predicted to manipulate maternal physiology for
            fetal benefit.

            The host-parasite relationship during pregnancy is a fascinating
            interaction and research in this area will improve understanding of
            disease pathogenesis and the various consequences of the host immune
            response, being host-protective, parasite protective and contributing to
            disease pathology. Pregnancy poses an interesting problem for the
            immune system of the dam as she is essentially carrying a
            semi-allogeneic tissue graft (the foetus) without immunological
            rejection taking place.

            Another role for foetal transferrin receptors on trophoblasts could be
            to bind maternal transferrin at the materno-foetal interface, thus
            frustrating maternal immunosurveillance. This is similar to a mechahism
            used by schistosomes in the host-parasite relation where host proteins
            are bound by the parasite to escape immunological recognition.

            2) A new paper by Emera, Romero, and Wagner suggests an interesting
            new idea. They turn the question around: menstruation isn’t the
            phenomenon to be explained, decidualization, the production of a
            thickened endometrial lining, is the key process.

            All mammals prepare a specialized membrane for embryo implantation,
            the difference is that most mammals exhibit triggered decidualization,
            where the fertilized embryo itself instigates the thickening, while most
            primates have spontaneous decidualization (SD), which occurs even in
            the absence of a fertilized embryo. You can, for instance, induce
            menstruation in mice. By scratching the mouse endometrium, they will go
            through a pseudopregnancy
            and build up a thickened endometrial lining
            that will be shed when progesterone levels drop. So the reason mice
            don’t menstruate isn’t thatthey lack a mechanism for shedding the
            endometrial lining…it’s that they don’t build it up in the first place
            unless they’re actually going
            to use it.

            So the question is, why do humans have spontaneous decidualization?

            The answer that Emera suggests is entirely evolutionary, and involves
            maternal-fetal conflict. The mother and fetus have an adversarial
            relationship: mom’s best interest is to survive pregnancy to
            bearchildren again, and so her body tries to conserve resources for the
            long haul. The fetus, on the other hand, benefits from wresting as much
            from
            mom as it can, sometimes to the mother’s detriment. The fetus, for
            instance, manipulates the mother’s hormones to weaken the insulin
            response, so less sugar is taken up by mom’s cells, making more
            available for the fetus.

            Within the mammals, there is variation in how deeply the fetus sinks
            its placental teeth into the uterus. Some species are epithelochorial;
            the connection is entirely superficial. Others are endotheliochorial, in
            which
            the placenta pierces the uterine epithelium. And others, the most
            invasive, are hemochorial, and actually breach maternal blood vessels.
            Humans are hemochorial. All of the mammalian species that menstruate arealso hemochorial.

            That’s a hint. Menstruation is a consequence of self-defense.
            Femalesbuild up that thickened uterine lining to protect and insulate
            themselves from the greedy embryo and its selfish placenta. In species
            with
            especially invasive embryos, it’s too late to wait for the moment of
            implantation — instead, they build up the wall pre-emptively, before and
            in case of fertilization. Then, if fertilization doesn’t occur, the
            universal process of responding to declining progesterone levels by
            sloughing off the lining occurs.

            3) http://americanpregnancy.org/p

            4)

            Normal, frequent
            or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

            exhaustion (weariness
            common from first weeks)

            altered appetite
            and senses of taste and smell

            nausea and vomiting
            (50% of women, first trimester)

            heartburn and indigestion

            constipation

            weight gain

            dizziness and light-headedness

            bloating, swelling,
            fluid retention

            hemmorhoids

            abdominal cramps

            yeast infections

            congested, bloody
            nose

            acne and mild skin
            disorders

            skin discoloration
            (chloasma, face and abdomen)

            mild to severe backache
            and strain

            increased headaches

            difficulty sleeping,
            and discomfort while sleeping

            increased urination
            and incontinence

            bleeding gums

            pica

            breast pain and
            discharge

            swelling of joints,
            leg cramps, joint pain

            difficulty sitting,
            standing in later pregnancy

            inability to take
            regular medications

            shortness of breath

            higher blood pressure

            hair loss

            tendency to anemia

            curtailment of ability
            to participate in some sports and activities

            infection
            including from serious and potentially fatal disease

            (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with
            non-pregnant women, and
            are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)

            extreme pain on
            delivery

            hormonal mood changes,
            including normal post-partum depression

            continued post-partum
            exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section
            – major surgery — is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to
            fully recover)

            Normal, expectable,
            or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

            stretch marks (worse
            in younger women)

            loose skin

            permanent weight
            gain or redistribution

            abdominal and vaginal
            muscle weakness

            pelvic floor disorder
            (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers
            and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal
            incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life — aka prolapsed utuerus,
            the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)

            changes to breasts

            varicose veins

            scarring from episiotomy
            or c-section

            other permanent
            aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed
            by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)

            increased proclivity
            for hemmorhoids

            loss of dental and
            bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

            higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer’s

            newer research indicates
            microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and
            mother (including with “unrelated” gestational surrogates)

            Occasional complications
            and side effects:

            complications of episiotomy

            spousal/partner
            abuse

            hyperemesis gravidarum

            temporary and permanent
            injury to back

            severe
            scarring
            requiring later surgery
            (especially after additional pregnancies)

            dropped (prolapsed)
            uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other
            pelvic floor weaknesses — 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele,
            and enterocele)

            pre-eclampsia
            (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated
            with eclampsia, and affecting 7 – 10% of pregnancies)

            eclampsia (convulsions,
            coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)

            gestational diabetes

            placenta previa

            anemia (which
            can be life-threatening)

            thrombocytopenic
            purpura

            severe cramping

            embolism
            (blood clots)

            medical disability
            requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of
            many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother
            or baby)

            diastasis recti,
            also torn abdominal muscles

            mitral valve stenosis
            (most common cardiac complication)

            serious infection
            and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)

            hormonal imbalance

            ectopic pregnancy
            (risk of death)

            broken bones (ribcage,
            “tail bone”)

            hemorrhage
            and

            numerous other complications
            of delivery

            refractory gastroesophageal
            reflux disease

            aggravation of pre-pregnancy
            diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5%
            of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment
            prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)

            severe post-partum
            depression and psychosis

            research now indicates
            a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
            including “egg harvesting” from infertile women and donors

            research also now
            indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity
            in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy

            research also indicates
            a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary
            and cardiovascular disease

            Less common (but
            serious) complications:

            peripartum cardiomyopathy

            cardiopulmonary
            arrest

            magnesium toxicity

            severe hypoxemia/acidosis

            massive embolism

            increased intracranial
            pressure, brainstem infarction

            molar pregnancy,
            gestational trophoblastic disease
            (like a pregnancy-induced
            cancer)

            malignant arrhythmia

            circulatory collapse

            placental abruption

            obstetric fistula

            More
            permanent side effects:

            future infertility

            permanent disability

            death.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I suspect you are right.

          • fiona64

            The list of things you “wouldn’t know” is just about endless, so far as I can tell.

          • HeilMary1

            You have such contempt for child survivors of abusive Catholic clergy.

          • Valde

            And why would I be? I am a baby killer, according to you.

          • fiona64

            I don’t sleep well, knowing that there are those like you out there who see nothing wrong in killing children.

            Please show me one post where I have supported infanticide. I’ll wait.

            And yes, you’re a misogynist; you clearly believe women are too stupid to make their own medical decisions.

        • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

          More respect, you say? Oh yes, I’m sure that must be it.

          Yes, like a baby. Actually a very apt analogy.

        • colleen

          This is Paul Bradford using his divide and conquer strategy.

          • HeilMary1

            Is that who he is?

          • colleen

            We shall see.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Guy named Gene Church.

          • HeilMary1

            Is DWR Gene Church?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes. It’s not really a secret–his disqus account is attached to his FB page.

          • HeilMary1

            I don’t want to friend him to read about his crimes, but google brought up an accusation comment that he is gay.

          • goatini

            Looks like he’s not too heartbroken about Wife # 1′s childbirth-related demise, since the replacement successfully gestated **6** more. Lucky successful breeder! She gets to LIVE and not be left to be sacrificed.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, they seem to be interchangeable provided they can gestate children.

          • colleen

            There are some similarities between him an Paul but I do believe this is who you say it is.

    • DivineWordRadio

      You attack well, but that is it. Would you like to elaborate, without name calling?

      • Valde

        Provide citations or shut the fuck up.

        And yes, you do tend to ignore every bit of factual and scientific evidence that you have been provided with.

        And you still refuse to answer my question.

        Are the female slaves who aborted their forced pregnancies during antebellum slavery murderers ? What kind of punishment should they have recieved for MURDER?

        And the same goes for Holocaust victims who aborted their forced pregnancies. How should they have been punished, sweetie?

        • DivineWordRadio

          Foul mouthed, aren’t you? Look, I was here first.

          You’ve provided nothing either factual or scientific.

          And you have refused to answer my questions. Is it acceptable to claim that constitutionality is all that matters, given that slavery was declared constitutional, and so was lynching in this country at one time? If not, then what difference does it make that you might have a 5-4 decision among the Court’s current make-up, if there is a truth out there that overrides a constitutional decision? And if there is, why would, or should, I care what a wrongheaded decision by the Supreme Court was in promulgating what is right and wrong?

          Yes, a female slave who aborted her child, while understandable given the horrific circumstances, would have killed her child. It would be an immoral response to a barbaric act, and it took the life of another.

          And whether it happens in the Holocaust or in times of slavery, or today, the answer is the same. Why would someone suggest that abortion is a solution to rape? Should a child be killed for the actions of their father?

          Does that answer your question, sweetie?

          • Valde

            Really? I haven’t?

            Like the side effects from pregnancy, courtesy of the CDC

            Like the explanation of what a blastocyst is – by an embryologist

            Like the history of antebellum slavery, where women were forcibly impregnated and treated as livestock.

            And no, you have not answered my question

            WHAT KIND OF PUNISHMENT SHOULD THE SLAVE/HOLOCAUST VICTIM HAVE RECEIVED FOR ‘MURDERING’ HER ‘BABY’

            Life in jail? Death penalty? it is MURDER after all.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You didn’t ask that question, and I already answered the previous one. As to this one, circumstances may mitigate the punishment, but it is still a killing of a child.

          • Valde

            No, you didn’t answer.

            You danced around it.

            Now kindly, answer.

          • Valde

            Oh, so a woman can kill her child if it is created through rape?

            Sweet!

            Can she kill her 5 year old if it was created through rape?

            After all, the circumstances may mitigate the punishment!!!!

          • DivineWordRadio

            Oh, and again I noticed you didn’t answer my questions.

          • Valde

            I asked first. I even asked last night. You didn’t answer then.

            Don’t try to be cagey and give me a non-answer, and then ask me questions so that you can outright refuse to give me a proper answer.

            You are not getting off the hook.

          • Valde

            So you defend pedo priests.

            Interesting.

          • ellid

            Liar.

          • HeilMary1

            And wife murderer!

          • Valde

            WHAT KIND OF PUNISHMENT SHOULD THE SLAVE/HOLOCAUST VICTIM HAVE RECEIVED FOR ‘MURDERING’ HER ‘BABY’

            Life in jail? Death penalty? it is MURDER after all.

            I asked first, dumbass.

            You didn’t answer. And now you are pulling the tired old trick of asking me questions, so you can then have an excuse not to answer mine.

            We all see through your tricks.

          • HeilMary1

            And he claims to be a lawyer?

          • Valde

            OH wait, he did say that due to the circumstances, the woman should be allowed to kill her child (I paraphrase)

            hahaha
            hahahahahahaah

          • fiona64

            Foul mouthed, aren’t you? Look, I was here first.

            So fucking what, on both counts? (And no, you weren’t “here first.”)

          • colleen

            he mentions it because he loves women so much that he needs to verbally abuse us when we point out the lies and flaws in his reasoning. He is a little man who enjoys demeaning women. I have nothing but pity for any children he is responsible for.

          • http://www.facebook.com/ella.warnock.7 Ella Warnock

            He was “here first.” Snork. Guess he’s getting his “debate” strategies from his kids.

          • fiona64

            Why would someone suggest that abortion is a solution to rape? Should a child be killed for the actions of their father?

            And now I’m adding rape apologist to the list of reasons why I think you’re an idiot …

          • HeilMary1

            He already defended pedophile priests on a Raw Story thread and vilified victims and their supporters.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Somehow I’m not surprised. He’s disgusting enough to defend a pedophile priest.

          • HeilMary1

            His identity should be exposed.

          • Valde

            DWR is an even bigger idiot than MY in some ways.

            He simply *pretends* that he has not been shown any science or citations. Just pretends it never happened!

          • fiona64

            You’ve provided nothing either factual or scientific.

            What a laughable accusation. Several of us, including Valde, have provided factual, scientific information — with citations so that you could go look for yourself. It’s no one’s fault but your own that you a) didn’t bother and/or b) lacked the education to comprehend what you looked at.

            You, OTOH, make absurd assertions that you refuse to back up, and expect us to take it on faith (so to speak) that a homeschooled male high schooler knows everything that any of us need to know about human reproduction.

            You’re laughable.

          • goatini

            “Why would someone suggest that abortion is a solution to rape? Should a child be killed for the actions of their father?”

            First, a reminder that no children are involved in any way whatsoever in a safe, legal pregnancy termination, because all children, ever, have already been born.

            And we see that you believe in REWARDING the rapist.

            You’re a rape supporter and enabler. You support the rights of the rapist to select, by violent felony assault, the mother of his child.

            If a rapist succeeds in impregnating his victim, and if his victim is forced into gestational slavery to bear his genetically defective spawn, THE RAPIST HAS WON.

            You support the rights of the rapist to destroy forever, for his innocent victim, the intrinsic dignity of being able to choose for herself when, where, why, how and with whom to start or grow her family.

            You support the rights of the rapist to forever taint the DNA of his innocent victim’s family, by criminal force by the rapist, and by criminal force by those who would force his victim into gestational slavery to bear the rapist’s genetically defective spawn.

            Many mental illnesses are genetically linked, and you support the cruel and inhuman torture of forcing an innocent victim into perpetuating the results of genetic damage.

            There is NO other crime for which the innocent victim of violent felony assault would NOT be promptly provided the medical care necessary to make the victim as whole again as possible to the state that they were before the crime – except rape. YOU support the forced gestational slavery of an innocent crime victim, to torture her yet again, over and over again, constantly reminded of the crime every second of every day of almost a full year, as a second violent attack and punishment upon the innocent victim, after the commission of the first horrific crime. YOU think innocent crime victims deserve to be doubly punished for being victims of violent sexual felony assault.

            Anyone who can say, without irony, “Why would someone suggest that abortion is a solution to rape?”, is a depraved monster.

    • HeilMary1

      Valde, I just discovered this discussion because I have been battling SlimyLiesHateRadio for several days over on a Raw Story thread. He is a lawyer who wishes he could be hired to defend pedophile priests. Yes, he’s really that slimy.

      • goatini

        Does he actually have a JD? Or is he just a loudmouth who couldn’t pass the bar exam?

        • HeilMary1

          Maybe he got it from Ave Maria Law School whose purpose is to legalize mother killing with unwanted fetuses. He’s already committed that crime.

      • colleen

        ah, that’s why he keeps trolling about how the Catholic church stands against rape. as if

  • DivineWordRadio

    I want to thank the number of you for posting about my wife’s death. It provided all any compassionate woman needed to see that your philosophy is sick and twisted. My wife was not Catholic. She chose to have our child (isn’t that what you claim to support -choice?) .

    She was pro-life. I was not. But I am now.

    I have not had any children since. I do have 7 children, and have a 15th grandchild on the way.

    • DivineWordRadio

      Oh, and HeilMary has some serious mental problems. She has posted around Discus on other sites that I am a murderer for having a child. She opposes reproduction, period. May God have mercy on her, and each of your souls.

      • Jennifer Starr

        We know HeilMary. And we like her.

        • DivineWordRadio

          That’s nice. It changes nothing. She needs help, and our prayers.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Mary has her reasons for feeling the way she does; she’s had some very bad experiences with the Catholic faith. Not uncommon issues for people who grow up in abusive fundamentalist households.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You combine two unrelated things–the Catholic faith, and “abusive fundamentalist households.” Pity.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, the brand of faith is irrelevant. Spiritual abuse can occur within any religious sect when there’s extreme zeal, authoritarianism, extreme discipline, an insistence upon absolutes, patriarchy and adherence to doctrine above all. Look at Michael and Debi Pearl’s influence within the Quiverfull movement–if that isn’t abuse, I don’t know what is. There is a woman in our group who did not grow up Catholic but experienced many of the same kind of things that Mary did. An ex-boyfriend of mine’s parents belonged to an Independent Fundamental Baptist Cult–with the help of their pastor they drugged him, tied him down to a chair and tried to ‘exorcise the demons’ from him because they found a Carl Sagan book hidden under his mattress.
            But it should come as no surprise to you that someone who grows up in a spiritually abusive household might have negative feelings toward that faith or towards religious faith in general. It’s very understandable, actually.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Actually, the “brand of faith” is relevant. One wouldn’t say, “the brand of analysis is irrelevant.”. Catholicism isn’t fundamentalist. It is understandable, but not acceptable, to act out because you were raised in an abusive environment. And, unlike what Mary indicates, the Church does not cause Munchausens.

          • Jennifer Starr

            How is she ‘acting out’? She’s expressing her opinion and allowed to do so.

          • HeilMary1

            Yeah, I haven’t abused sex like Gene Church to murder any unwanted spouses and I’ve never physically attacked any abusive clergy or relatives.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And granted, I am not extremely familiar with Catholicism and maybe fundamentalist is the wrong word. But I would imagine, that, like any faith, there are those who adhere to the teachings of the faith much more strictly than others. And yes, spiritual abuse can occur within Catholicism just like it can within any faith.

          • goatini

            For latter-day Catholicism, the word “fundamentalist” is very, very accurate. The Second Vatican Council started some progress towards a Church that was for ALL of the Faithful (not just males as complete persons, and females as second-class citizens). But the radical misogynist fundamentalist Wojtyła, aided and abetted by his “Cheney”, e.g., Grand Inquisitor Ratzinger, destroyed all that progress and steered the Church backwards in time to the 12th century. The recent so-called “New Evangelization” movement in the Church is aimed at Protestant and non-denominational fundamentalists, for those who want an even MORE fundamentalist cult than the Protestant and non-denom cults.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Thanks for giving me this information about Wojtyla and Ratzinger and particularly the “New Evangelization” movement , which I have noticed in recent years. Disturbing trends.

          • goatini

            Bergoglio (Francis) has made some recent statements that indicate that he is not on board with the vicious and divisive regressive politics of the Wojo/Ratzo Magisterium.

            From today’s New York Times:
            Pope Francis, in the first extensive interview of his six-month-old papacy, said that the Roman Catholic Church had grown “obsessed” with preaching about abortion, gay marriage and contraception, and that he has chosen not to speak of those issues despite recriminations from some critics.

            In remarkably blunt language, Francis sought to set a new tone for the church, saying it should be a “home for all” and not a “small chapel” focused on doctrine, orthodoxy and a limited agenda of moral teachings.

            “It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time,” the pope told the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, a fellow Jesuit and editor in chief of La Civiltà Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit journal whose content is routinely approved by the Vatican. “The dogmatic and
            moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently.

            “We have to find a new balance,” the pope continued, “otherwise
            even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            That sounds very good indeed :) Let’s hope that’s the start of a more progressive trend and a breath of fresh air to an institution that could sure use it.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ll take progress from even unlikely surprising sources.

          • goatini

            Bergoglio reminds me more of Roncalli every day. Which is a good thing. The very fact that he got elected tells me that there were more than a few Cardinals who were fed up with the regressive Wojo/Ratzo Magisterium.

          • fiona64

            Catholicism isn’t fundamentalist

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • DivineWordRadio

            Your ignorance is showing

          • fiona64

            Catholicism by its very nature is fundamentalist. You have a very specific set of dogma to which you are expected to adhere. You are expected to take it as given that anything said by the papal hierarchy is a direct message from Deity.

            I’m sorry that you don’t understand your own faith’s fundamentals …

          • goatini

            Fiona is correct, as this Catholic of 60 years tenure will attest.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You must have slept through your religious education then. You were simply wrong.

          • goatini

            I not only did NOT sleep through my religious education, but I have never stopped my religious education.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You apparently know as little about Catholicism as you do about what life is.

          • HeilMary1

            Says the pompous puke who murdered his own wife!

          • DivineWordRadio

            Over and over, you’ve shown you don’t know what murder is, any more than you know the truth about science. You do know how to twist both to say whatever you wish. Actually, you are tiring me, because you know nothing of any value, you make false attacks, and offer nothing new.

          • HeilMary1

            You spoiled whinny wife murderer! You trash everyone else’s basic human rights, brag about using your putrid penis to murder your wife, then blubber that we “don’t have any morals” because we don’t want to end up MURDERED by your misogyny cult! Wife killer you deserves castration before you murder another wife! You should be in jail with Scott Peterson!

          • goatini

            I have learned through this thread that I know far, far more about the Church than you ever will.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Your hatred and malice have shown you have no idea about Truth, Love, or the Church. Pity.

          • fiona64

            Just a hint for you: Catholics don’t have a monopoly on truth (which is subjective, unlike facts …) or love … or even being the church.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Just a hint for you: Catholics do have the monopoly on the Fullness of Truth, which is not subjective at all.

          • fiona64

            Catholics do have the monopoly on the Fullness of Truth, which is not subjective at all.

            Well, you’d better alert the Mormons, and the Southern Baptists, and the Jainists, and the Lutherans, and the Buddhists …

            Every faith thinks it has a monopoly on Truth(TM), which has nothing whatsoever to do with *facts.* As Indiana Jones said, if you’re looking for truth, go take Dr. Gantry’s philosophy class down the hall.

          • HeilMary1

            Really? Then how come Jesus H. Christ whipped the money changers instead of the midwife abortionists? How come he never condemned popular herbal and barrier contraceptives used by his followers? How come your all-knowing poops won’t acknowledge the commonplace existence of intersex folks? How come earlier poops genocided the direct descendants of Jesus and Mary Magdalene in Southern France? Full blown RCC misogyny is hardly superior to more authentic Gnostic and Cathar sects.

          • goatini

            Facts are not “hatred” nor are they “malice”.

            But if, indeed, you could have saved the life of your first wife by acting as her proxy and insisting that her life be saved, I’d say that’s telling of your hate and malice for females.

            And make no mistake – I am NOT accusing you. I have asked over and over again if you DID have the opportunity to save your first wife’s life. You have refused to confirm or deny. Logically we must take silence as possible complicity.

            And one more time, I know more about the Roman Catholic Church, as a member for 60 years, and as an avid student of its history for as long as I’ve been able to read, than you evidently ever will.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You haven’t dealt with facts. You’ve dealt with malice. You’ve signed off on calling me a murderer, and a pedophile.

            And you have already shown me you know nothing worthwhile about the Church.

          • HeilMary1

            Dr. Richard Sipe agreed with me that the mother-killing ban on safe sex triggers Munchausen by Proxy abuse. Anthropologist Nancy Scheper-Hughes has documented massive overlooked Munchausen by Proxy murder of already born kids by impoverished Catholic mothers in Brazil.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Citation please?

          • HeilMary1

            “Death Without Weeping: The Violence of Everyday Life in Brazil” by Nancy Scheper-Hughes.

          • fiona64
          • HeilMary1

            Thanks! My links get filtered out. She also has something on RCC pedophiles:

            “Priestly Celibacy and Child Sexual Abuse,” with John Devine. Forum: The Catholic Church, Pedophiles and Child Sexual Abuse.

          • fiona64

            No, they are most assuredly related in this case.

            Hell, you prove her point yourself with your authoritarian speech about how women’s rights are “trumped” by a frigging embryo and telling us that if we don’t want to have kids (or more kids) we’re supposed to be celibate. You are just as authoritarian and rigid in your Catholicism as a fundamentalist of any other stripe.

          • Ella Warnock

            So pray for her, then.

            Matthew 6:6

          • fiona64

            It was your church’s policies that created those issues. While I don’t always agree with her words, I do agree with her passion — and understand why it happened.

            You and your triggering bullshit are the reason you got the well-deserved reaming.

          • expect_resistance

            She was doing just fine without your bullshit. You only belittle her with phony guilt and shame. Fuck you. Fuck your god. Fuck your stupid Catholic church. Damn the whole thing no exceptions. Fuck off.

      • Valde

        You need help. You view women as livestock.

        • DivineWordRadio

          I don’t , and that you see those who want children to live says far more worse about you than me.

          • Valde

            Yes you do.

            You believe that a woman should be subjugated to a microscopic zygote.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are wrong. But remember, a person’s a person no matter how small.

          • Valde

            A genetic blueprint is not a person.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Aren’t you a genetic blueprint?

          • Valde

            No, I am a sentient, sapient person.

            I already explained this to you, from an embryologist.

            Will I have to explain it to you again, dumbass?

            I may as well:

            You and I contain much, much more information, both
            genetic and otherwise, than a blastocyst. That’s why I can write this
            column and you can read it, whereas a blastocyst just.. .sits
            there. Indeed, that is the exactly the point of stem cell research:
            the stem cells in the blastocyst have not yet acquired the
            molecular programming required for differentiation, and so they
            remain pluripotent, awaiting the necessary molecular
            signals (the information) that will tell them whether
            to become nerve or muscle, skin or bone.

            Yes, once upon a time we were blastocysts, too. Nothing
            more than a little clump of cells, each of them a snippet of DNA
            surrounded by cytoplasm. But that DNA was later transcribed into RNA,
            and that RNA was translated into proteins. And some of those proteins
            were transcription factors that told other cells in the blastocyst
            what to do, when to divide, where to migrate. Transcription factors
            regulated the expression of still other transcription factors. Genes
            were turned on and off with clockwork precision. Some genes were
            methylated, so they could never be turned on again.

            In other words, the genome and the proteome of the blastocyst were
            changed as the embryo accumulated molecular information that the
            blastocyst did not have.

            The embryo became a fetus, with complex orientations of
            tissues–loaded with spatial, genetic, biochemical and mechanical
            information that simply did not exist in the embryo.

            The fetus became a child with a nervous system, and that nervous
            system sucked up information about the world, hard-wiring pathways
            for vision and movement, learning to make subtle distinctions between
            this and that, accumulating information that simply did not exist in
            the fetus.

            In other words, the blastocyst launched a genetic program that both
            extracted and acquired information. It didn’t start out
            as a human being. It became a human being, with a
            personality, feelings, attitudes and memories, by accumulating
            information that was not there before.

            Equating a blastocyst with a human being is like equating a brand new
            copy of an inexpensive spreadsheet program with the priceless
            databases that you’ll eventually build up with that program. It’s no
            less ridiculous than saying that a blueprint has the same value as a
            skyscraper–that it is the skycraper.

            No. They are not the same.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I get it. The mentally handicapped Aren’t persons to you.

          • Valde

            Nice strawman.

            No, moron, the mentally handicapped are still sentient beings. The mentally handicapped are not infringing on anyone’s bodily autonomy.

            And don’t you dare compare a mentally handicapped PERSON to a microscopic genetic blueprint. How callous of you. A handicapped person actually has some value.

            BTW, it’s also glaringly obvious that you didn’t understand a thing I wrote.

            Dumbass.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I understand very well. You are malicious, uncaring, and mean-spirited.

          • Valde

            Only to people who don’t view women as persons.

          • Valde

            Oh, and you’re so pathetic.

            You are a complete and utter failure, you are unable to refute any of our *factual* *scientific* posts, so you resort to name calling.

            And you think you’re the adult.

          • fiona64

            Permit me to sink to your level for a moment: “i know you are, but what am I?”

          • goatini

            More projection from a malicious, uncaring, and mean-spirited misogynistic forced-birther.

          • HeilMary1

            WOMEN and intersexed gays aren’t people to you.

          • fiona64

            WTF is the matter with you? Seriously. Fetii are not persons. Those who are born with developmental delays (note the word “born”) are persons. And those with developmental delays are still sentient. So, congratulations on delivering yet another asinine straw man. It seems to be the sole strength amongst your ilk.

            OTOH, you’ve made it clear that women are not persons so far as you are concerned, seeing as how you’re more than happy to enslave us to our uterii. Casse-toi, pute.

          • goatini

            A blueprint is not a house. A genetic blueprint is not a person and citizen.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Euphemisms don’t change true. You have no real desire to establish a definition of life, because it would make you too uncomfortable. You certainly would not want to say that one minute before birth cost to did life, because that would mean that the very things you propose or murder.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Cost to did life? A law degree you may have, but someone must have had to edit all your papers.

          • Valde

            . You certainly would not want to say that one minute before birth cost to did life

            Can’t parse that sentence. Cost to did life? What the fuck?

            Go on, keep pretending you’re the intelligent one, we will just sit back and mock your pathetic lying ass.

          • HeilMary1

            But you have no problem using your penis to murder your wife, Gene Church of Satan.

          • goatini

            Says the man whose “definition of life” is that the old used up skin bag should die in favor of a fetus, that may or may not survive anyway. You haven’t a leg to stand on here.

          • DivineWordRadio

            What are the biological differences between a child born from a C-section and one sixty seconds before the scalpel was used?

          • Valde

            Hey dumbass, I’ve already shown you what the average abortion looks like.

            Elective abortions at 36 weeks DO NOT HAPPEN

          • goatini

            Stop being deliberately obtuse with your ridiculous red herrings. NO municipality in the US permits an elective safe, legal pregnancy termination “sixty seconds before the scalpel was used”. Not ONE.

            If the living, breathing WOMAN’S life is in mortal danger and can be saved, for the sake of her spouse and for the sake of her living, breathing children, “sixty seconds before the scalpel was used” – then only a depraved monster would sentence his wife to death. A REAL man would save the life of his life partner, and try again for a pregnancy where BOTH the woman lives and the newborn lives.

          • fiona64

            Dr. Seuss really should be credited when you make that remark. So, add plagiarism to the list of things you’ll need to confess to your priest.

          • goatini

            The forced-birthers had to retract the misused quote from Mr Geisel’s book, as per his demand that they not exploit his characters for their selfish goals.

          • DivineWordRadio

            That would be the Estates selfish goals.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not selfish to state that you shouldn’t co-opt someone else’s copyrighted material for your political movement.

          • goatini

            Mr Geisel himself demanded a retraction, and got it, from forced-birther propagandists during his lifetime.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And I’m fairly certain that Mr. Geisel never wanted his words used by Lou ‘Pelvic Thrust’ Engle. Incidentally, what is up with that man’s pelvis, any way? He can’t seem to keep it still.

          • goatini

            We want children to live, and to live as happy, healthy, and wonderful a life as possible.

            Fetuses are not children. All children have been born.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Hey this is our children that you have chosen to discord.

          • Jennifer Starr

            ‘Our’ children? I’m fairly certain that Goatini doesn’t want to have children with you.

          • goatini

            Oh Hell To The No!

          • Jennifer Starr

            Chose to discord? No, I choose to harmonize, thank you.

          • Valde

            You are lecturing us about ‘intelligence’ and you can’t even present a coherent argument?

            Fuck, you can’t even write a complete sentence without sounding like you’ve been dropped on the head one too many times.

          • HeilMary1

            YOU deliberately discarded your wife.

          • goatini

            No one, except criminals, are discarding any children whatsoever in any way at all. Because all children have already been born.

            But we’ve established that if your word as proxy could have saved your first wife’s life, that you choose to discard living, breathing women.

      • HeilMary1

        Liar, I simply oppose you fetal idolaters murdering women with FORCED pregnancies for your pedophile mafia. You criminally oppose all reproductive safety options for women, but high-five the free Viagra for pedophile priests and adulterous wife killers like yourself.

      • expect_resistance

        Look – you need to get this through your thick skull. Your comments are unwarranted and uncalled for. I don’t know how to stress this more strongly. You are wrong.

        Contraception—and non-procreative sex in general—is NOT like an addictive drug

        Abortion is NOT like slavery

        Legal abortion is NOT like assault

        Abortion is a medical procedure that is LEGAL. It is NOT murder. Women have been practicing birth control and abortion for more than 4000 years. (website 4000 years for choice) Being that most major religions are ruled by a patriarchy, misogyny has reigned supreme in most major religions. You are proof.

        I don’t care what you believe. Stay the hell out of my uterus. Stay the hell out of my sexual health decisions. IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS – PERIOD. Please get a life.

        • DivineWordRadio

          I hope you can get this through your skull. It is irrelevant whether you declare that my “comments are unwarranted and uncalled for.” I am not wrong about this.

          As to contraception, I don’t believe that I contended that it was addictive, and if I did, it must have been in terms of some analogy.

          Abortion is like slavery, in that the victim has no rights, and like assault, because it is the wrongful taking of the life of a pre-born.

          Abortion should certainly not be legal. To claim that it existed for 4000 years justifies its continuance (and ignoring the fact that it was illegal throughout much of this time). To claim that supporting life is misogynist would imply that supporting killing children would not be. Perhaps you are the proof.

          I have no interest of getting in your uterus, and neither should you. It is for the delivery of a child.

          • Valde

            No dude, you are wrong about anatomy being destiny, and you are wrong about the fact that forcing rape victims to give birth = good.

          • Valde

            Abortion is like slavery, in that the victim has no rights, and like
            assault, because it is the wrongful taking of the life of a pre-born.

            Forcing a rape victim to give birth IS the definition of slavery.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then you need a new dictionary. Is forcing a woman not to kill her 5 year old the definition of slavery as well?

          • Valde

            A 5 year old isn’t living inside a woman like a parasite.

          • expect_resistance

            Forced birth is RAPE – Forced birth is slavery.

          • goatini

            A 5 year old is not a zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus. A 5 year old is a child, which as all children must be, has already been born.

          • HeilMary1

            Already born children are not deadly medical threats to their mothers.

          • HeilMary1

            Hey, you’re the creep who defended my Munchausen by Proxy mom who tried to murder me at least twice after my sixth birthday.

          • fiona64

            Another idiotic straw man. Honestly, it is wearisome at best to see these ridiculous statements out of the anti-choice.

            If you cannot understand that your assertion (paraphrasing) that the theoretical right to life of an embryo trumps a born, sapient sentient woman’s right to *liberty* is indeed enslavement, I think YOU are the one who needs a new dictionary.

          • expect_resistance

            Yes, we could keep arguing ad nauseam. Frankly I really don’t give a rat’s ass about what you think. It’s irrelevant. I’ve become board with this conversation because it’s like arguing with a five year old. Actually most five year olds are probably smarter than you are. But whatever. Keep on being a misogynistic fool. Whatever gets you off. Just like the sick old men who watch sexually active women walk into a women’s clinic. They get their rocks off on looking at sexually active women – Dirty old perverts. Who knows what goes on in their sick minds.

            Abortion will always be legal. Really you don’t want it to be illegal because you get off on shaming women. You get off on the superiority you feel by slut-shaming, by shaming women for their right to bodily autonomy. I don’t need to demean others to feel good about myself. Abortion was legal for thousands of years before it was briefly deemed (by men) as illegal.

            My uterus is for my use only. There will be no baby birthing for me unless I chose so. If I have sex and get pregnant I have every right to have an abortion. So get over it. You HAVE NO right to tell me what my uterus is for. This is why (obviously) I say stay the hell out of my uterus!!!!

          • HeilMary1

            You use fetuses as bullets to murder unwanted wives, you monster.

          • DivineWordRadio

            The fact that goatini and Valde agree with you only establish how sick they, and you, really are.

          • Valde

            We agree with her. Unlike you, she’s a victim. You are a victimizer.

          • goatini

            HM is not actively exploiting females as utilities.

        • HeilMary1

          But not a new wife! — he’s ruined enough women already!

    • Jennifer Starr

      I support your wife’s right to choose to have her child despite risk. But I hope that you agree that not every woman who is facing a life threatening pregnancy has to make that same choice.

    • Ella Warnock

      I imagine that’s a calculated bomb that you often like to drop in these sorts of discussions. Just so that you can drop in again and vent your spleen about lack of compassion and twisted philosophy. Yes, it’s a tragedy; but it’s a tragedy that you wield like a weapon against those you loathe. As you’re so very fond of saying: It’s your right to be wrong.

      I do hope that your family never sees as much as a glimmer of the kind of bile you’re capable of spewing.

      • caroza

        Compassion for living women, poor women, living children, children who lose their mothers because of botched backstreet abortions, people dying like flies because of the lies the Catholic Church has spread about AIDS in Africa (where I live), compassion for children who have been raped, for teenagers terrified by a pregnancy they can’t afford, compassion for little boys who have had their innocence destroyed by religious predators, none of that compares in DWR’s mind to “compassion” for an embryo which is not sentient and will never suffer for having been aborted. But we’re twisted.

      • Ella Warnock

        Thank you for commenting, caroza. The things you speak of are horrific, and it’s infuriating that someone like Gene recognizes no horror at all in the conditions that you speak of. It isn’t funny, and it isn’t amusing. Gene will reply to this at some point; and his hubris will bristle with anger, sarcasm, and hatefulness. I encourage him to continue to speak of his arrogance with such abandon. It shows the world exactly who, and what, he is.

        • caroza

          And what he stands for.

      • DivineWordRadio

        Then you’d be wrong. I see a lot of sickness here, but it has nothing to do with getting pregnant.

        If any of my family ever comes to this site, they will see plenty of bile. Sick, hurting women who have darkened their intellects with hate. And it is a pity.

        I don’t expect for a second that I have the ability to help any of you see the truth. But God does, provided you can be open to it. And I will leave that to you and to God.

        God bless.

        • Valde

          Yes, there is plenty of bile.

          Because you’re a misogynist creep who thinks he has been divinely appointed to ‘protect’ women from themselves. Because in your mind, it is a woman’s job to have babies.

          So basically, you believe women should be forced into their divinely appointed ‘job’ as mere livestock, and that you are helping them out by opposing abortion, and most likely, contraception.

          Oh, and the icing on the cake, is you spend your entire time talking down to women, and treating them like actual livestock.

          All you really care about is a microscopic embryo. Well, not really. You just want women to be put in their place – barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, where they exist for men’s pleasure and profit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Yawn.

          • Valde

            Keep putting that foot in that mouth sweetie.

            Your condescending holier than thou attitude isn’t winning you any friends.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Truth is truth. And don’t call me sweetie. I feel like a piece of meat. :)

          • Valde

            The truth is that you view women as inferiors, whose god given role is to have babies.

            You said so yourself, sweetie.

          • DivineWordRadio

            What I said is that you were a liar. My opinion is not changed, and your statements make it obvious.

          • Valde

            Yeah?

            I will repeat, is that why you more or less said that baby-making was a woman’s job? Integral to womanhood no less?

          • HeilMary1

            You treated your murdered wife like toilet paper for your poisonous sperm.

          • fiona64

            Well, sweetie, now you know how the women to whom you are condescending feel. We are just the meat around a uterus, so far as you’re concerned.

          • HeilMary1

            Psychopathic Pharisee.

          • fiona64

            Yep, that’s what we do when the anti-choicers show up. If any of you ever presents an argument that hasn’t been presented a thousand times before … and is grounded in anything even remotely resembling reality … I shall alert the media at once.

          • Ella Warnock

            If it’s so boring, why are you still hanging around?

            I do wonder what it is that makes a grown man – with many children, a patriarch, if you will – want to show his ass all over the internet. Aren’t you a little old to be employing playground taunts and insults? Is this behavior something you’re proud of, that you want your children to emulate? What sort of satisfaction do you derive from throwing fits that would shame the crankiest of toddlers?

            It’s bewildering, Gene.

          • Valde

            Aren’t you a little old to be employing playground taunts and insults?

            No shit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I thought she was talking to you.

          • Valde

            Nope sweetie.

            I have descended to your level because you are incapable of adult debate.

            I provided you with page after page of facts and science, all of which you dismissed , calling me a’ baby killer’

            Grow up.

          • HeilMary1

            He’s a malignant narcissist just as Dr. Richard Sipe has astutely labelled abusive priests.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Why are you?

            I do have better things to do with my time. I must admit, the vile comments from HeilMary brought me back.

            I’m not the one showing “my ass.”

            But there was no problem attacking me about my wife on this site, and it was uncalled for.

            And those of you supporting it are equally sad.

          • Valde

            You brought up your dead wife as a tool to pretend that you actually give a shit about women.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are wrong. And sick

          • Valde

            Perhaps. You may have just invented her.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nope.

          • goatini

            If she exists, she’s his “Quien Es Mas Catolico” card.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, you really were the one who brought her up.

          • DivineWordRadio

            The issue was whether I invented her, the crass suggestion by Valde. I did bring her up, when it was contended that I didn’t understand about the dangers of childbirth.

          • Valde

            yeah, you use her as a tool to pretend that you actually give a shit about women

          • HeilMary1

            And you still don’t understand after deadly childbirth killed your wife.

          • HeilMary1

            We support saving women like your wife, and you brag about killing her for your Nazi pedophile cult!

          • Ella Warnock

            I’m not the one who purportedly has better things to do elsewhere.

            I didn’t attack your wife.

          • Ella Warnock

            You’ve made it clear you think HM is an unhinged nut who “needs prayer.” Why are you letting her lead you all over the internet, especially if you have better things to do? I mean, according to you, you’re above that sort of thing.

          • DivineWordRadio

            In this area, you are right. God bless.

        • fiona64

          If any of my family ever comes to this site, they will see plenty of bile.

          All of it from you. I rather imagine they’ll find it enlightening.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Sorry but no. It would be from those of you who have decided to call me a pedophile because I have too many children, who accuse me of murdering my wife by having a child with her, and by advocating that a child, one minute before birth, has no value.

          • Valde

            and by advocating that a child, one minute before birth, has no value.

            Show where someone has said that.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You aren’t reading these posts? That a fetus has no value until they first take a breath? What are you reading?

          • Valde

            Show me where someone has explicitly stated ‘it is acceptable to kill newborns in the birth canal’

            Do it.

          • DivineWordRadio

            With you posting this many lies, I don’t have time. What they said was that a fetus, up until the moment that they are delivered, has no value.

          • Valde

            No, they said it isn’t a child until it’s born.

            However, they have not advocated for elective abortion at birth you fuckwit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nope. You are wrong.

          • Valde

            I know these women. I am right.

          • fiona64

            No one said any such fucking thing. Stop lying. Even the posts you quoted as making that assertion DID NOT.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Do you believe that a woman should have the right to abort her child, a fetus, up until moments before delivery? And if not, why not?

          • HeilMary1

            You don’t even believe we have the right to use contraception to avoid guaranteed childbirth deaths, jackass wife killer.

          • fiona64

            Answered repeatedly. Stop being a dumbass.

            if that’s at all possible …

          • colleen

            we are NOT trying to change the law and what you describe is illegal.

          • HeilMary1

            You believe women lose all human value as soon as they are pregnant.

          • fiona64

            Since no one has said that (even in the posts you quoted claiming such), you really need to stop with the lies.

          • fiona64

            Please show me where *anyone* has called you a pedophile for having too many children, or advocating that a “child” one minute before birth, has on value.

            I dare you.

            You’re lying.

          • DivineWordRadio

            HeilMary1

            • 2 hours ago

            Having sex with your wife, knowing that childbirth would likely maim or murder her, is criminal homicide with your penis as the weapon, but you went ahead anyway because pedophile you hoped you’d get to molest the resulting new kid! How dare you lecture us, you murdering sex abuser!
            =============================================
            Valde

            • 2 hours ago

            You probably are a pedo. That’s why you have so many kids.

            ==============================================

            fiona64

            • 2 days ago

            You’re doing a splendid job of proving the point Amanda was making with this blog article, you know.

            A fetus is not a “someone.” It is a *potential* someone. African-Americans slaves were *actual* someones.

            Learn the difference.

            ============================================

            goatini

            • 3 days ago

            Babies have already been born. No “babies” involved at all in safe, legal pregnancy termination.

            ===========================================

            Valde

            • 3 days ago

            By that standard, you profess the genocide model

            Oh, and fetii are not specifically targeted and killed so people can take their stuff, or engage in ‘ethnic cleansing’

            A woman has the right not to be pregnant. It’s not her fault the embyro cannot exist outside her body.

            ===========================================

            goatini

            • 3 days ago

            Oh, and an embryo is NOT a “child”, since all children, ever, have already been born. Oh, and you call names and use invalid euphemisms so that you’ll feel superior.

            ===========================================

            I don’t expect any acknowledgment that you are wrong.

          • Valde

            Yes, wrong that women are people and not livestock.

            We are so evil.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Yes you are. You agree with these claims:

            “Hey, you’re the creep who defended my Munchausen by Proxy mom who tried to murder me at least twice after my sixth birthday.”

            “What a whiny wife murderer/rape apologist scumbag you are. You are too morally bankrupt to care that YOU caused your wife’s death and you accuse us of having no morals?? Creeps like you flocked to the Nazi party for its holy misogyny and homophobia torture opportunities.”

          • Valde

            Yep, that sounds like you.

          • HeilMary1

            He objects to true definitions of his corrupt character.

          • colleen

            he thinks that human reproduction is all about him and justifies this by demanding we bow to a doctrine created by pedophiles.

          • fiona64

            Well, I suppose I must stand corrected. on at least the first count. However, no one has told you that a fetus has no value; we have merely pointed out that “fetus” and “child” are not synonymous.

            It’s really not our fault that you can’t understand that …

          • DivineWordRadio

            So then, you believe that a fetus should not be allowed to be aborted moments before delivery?

          • goatini

            Again – NO municipality in the United States permits elective safe, legal pregnancy termination “moments before delivery”.

            And when the woman’s life is threatened, safe, legal pregnancy termination “moments before delivery” is the moral imperative. What kind of man stands by idly and lets the woman he loves perish unnecessarily? What kind of man wouldn’t want to save his partner’s life, and hope to try again for a successful pregnancy where the woman lives, and birth results in a healthy child? What kind of man IS that?

          • DivineWordRadio

            No “municipality”?

            The Supreme Court since 2007 upheld partial birth abortion ban (D&X). The issue is that there appear to be those here who believe this should be allowable.

            So then, you believe that a fetus should not be allowed to be aborted moments before delivery if the woman’s life is not threatened?

          • Valde

            partial birth abortion is used in cases where either the fetus or woman is dying

            now, because it is banned, doctors simply have to take the fetus out in chunks

            denying the family the right to cuddle and bury their much WANTED baby

            because no one bears a pregnancy for 10months only to abort at the last minute you fuckwad

          • DivineWordRadio

            Why do you make such silly absolutes?

          • Valde

            It’s a fact, not an absolute, fuckwad

          • DivineWordRadio

            “because no one bears a pregnancy for 10months only to abort at the last minute.”

            An absolute.

          • Valde

            Yeah dude, they don’t.

            Now, some women will give birth, and then kill the newborn, for various reasons.

            However, women will not ,and can not, find someone to give them an elective abortion DURING BIRTH.

            Even Gosnell INDUCED LABOUR FIRST – then he killed the neonates

            Birth IS abortion – it ends the pregnancy.

            If an abortion is carried out during birth it is because something catastrophic just happened.

          • fiona64

            It is a fact. No one goes through 40 weeks’ gestation and says “I’ve changed my mind.” Stop being such a dumbass.

          • HeilMary1

            Google symphysiotomies, Dr. Marion Sims and obstetric fistulas to get a clue why childbirth is so deadly and why you whiny fetal idolaters cheat on and divorce any such afflicted brood mares who don’t die childbirth.

          • fiona64

            Is anyone this much of a dumbass?

            No woman is lying there in active labor asking for a mulligan on the whole thing.

            That particular straw man is not only old and tired, but beyond stupid.

          • colleen

            are you insane?

          • goatini

            I’m not wrong. It is a FACT that an embryo is NOT a “child”, since all children, ever, have already been born.

            It’s also a FACT that you call names and use invalid euphemisms so that you’ll feel superior.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Strawman. I would never accuse anyone of having ‘too many’ children. My pro-choice, liberal grandparents chose to have seven. A couples’ family size, whether they choose to have ten kids, two kids, or no kids, should be their personal decision.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Not a strawman. You may not have, but others did.

          • goatini

            A fetus, one minute from birth – IF BIRTH WOULD KILL THE LIVING, BREATHING WOMAN – has LESS value than the woman. At least to sane people. Sane people would want to save the life of their life partner, and try again for a successful pregnancy where no one’s life is threatened.

          • DivineWordRadio

            So, are you now shifting to say that if birth would not kill the living breathing woman, then it is no acceptable to kill the fetus one minute before birth?

          • Valde

            Sometimes obstructed labour happens.

            Do you let the woman die? or the baby?

            Well? Which would you choose DWR?

          • goatini

            I stated previously, at least twice in this thread, that NO municipality in the United States permits elective safe, legal pregnancy termination “one minute before birth”. That is the law.

            Safe, legal pregnancy termination “one minute before birth” TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE LIVING, BREATHING WOMAN is NOT “elective”. It falls under the “life of the woman” exceptions that even YOU have said that you allegedly support.

            And for a REAL man, safe, legal pregnancy termination “one minute before birth” TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE LIVING, BREATHING WOMAN is IMPERATIVE. Only cowards and misogynists would NOT save the life of the woman he supposedly “loves”.

      • HeilMary1

        He’s unfit to live on the same planet as his children and grandchildren.

        • DivineWordRadio

          Thanks for sharing your ignorance.

          • Valde

            No, she’s right about you. you fucking rape apologist scumbag

          • DivineWordRadio

            More bile from another sick person.

          • Valde

            Says the rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Says the bitter and vile attacker.

          • Valde

            I know what a see, rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then I’d get new glasses. I want rapists prosecuted. But killing a child does not punish the rapist.

          • Valde

            No, you believe that rapists should have the right to choose the mother of their child.

            Ergo, you are a rape apologist. Rape brings the gift of life in your view. You think it’s good.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are twisted. And a liar.

          • Valde

            No, I speak the truth.

            You believe that victims of rape – even if they are 8 years old – should be FORCED to give birth to their rapist’s offspring..

            That’s seriously fucked up.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nope.

          • Valde

            Nope what?

            You think an 8 year old rape victim should be forced to give birth

            That isn’t love for women.

          • goatini

            Valde is correct. You support the right of the violent criminal felony sexual assault perpetrator to select, by deadly force, the mother of his child. FACT.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s not about punishment. It’s not about fault or blame or any of that. That is simplistic rubbish. It’s about whether a woman or young girl who has been violated in the worst way possible feels that she is able to carry a pregnancy that was forced upon her. Some people feel as if they can, and that is fine. In fact, there’s an essay on this very site about a woman who decided to keep and raise a child conceived from rape and how Planned Parenthood gave her the tools to do it. As I said, some people feel as though they can carry a rape pregnancy, and that is their right. But no one should be forced.

          • Valde

            Oh Jenn, what a day…DWR and now Joseph!!

            and before that, myintx!

          • Jennifer Starr

            An awful lot of Bruce Boxleitner viewing to get through this day….

          • HeilMary1

            Abortion saves mothers from deadly and life ruining childbirth injuries. You know, like the injuries that MURDERED YOUR STILL DEAD WIFE!?

          • goatini

            Forcing the innocent victim of violent felony sexual assault to bear the damaged spawn of the mentally ill criminal, forever tainting her family’s DNA line, REWARDS the rapist.

          • goatini

            Desire to allow women to die needlessly IS bitter and vile.

            Desire to force innocent victims of violent felony sexual assault to be punished, instead of ensuring they get compassionate medical aid to be made as whole as possible again after the attack, IS bitter and vile.

    • fiona64

      So, you use your wife’s death as a talking point and a tool. How “pro-life” of you.

      • DivineWordRadio

        I am pro-life. And you favor its destruction. Pity.

        • HeilMary1

          Your killing your wife proves you are anti-life of the already born.

        • fiona64

          And you favor its destruction.

          Histrionic much?

          You’re anti-choice, period.

        • goatini

          If your word as proxy could have saved your first wife’s life, then it is YOU who favor ACTUAL destruction of ACTUAL life.

        • colleen

          on the contrary. The guy you voted for just cut food stamps and your church works hard to assure that Obamacare does not pass .

    • Valde

      What Fiona said.

      You are despicable.

      • DivineWordRadio

        You have the right to be malicious and wrong.

        • Valde

          Why do you think women are too stupid to make their own reproductive decisions?

          • DivineWordRadio

            No. I think they have the ability to say no.

          • Valde

            In all situations?

            Did Ariel Castro’s victims have the ability to say no?

            You rape apologist asshole.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’ll tell you what. I believe that there should be no exception for cases of rape and incest. Those are human beings as well. But I might step away if that were all we were talking about, as they constitute far less than 1 percent of the cases.

          • Valde

            Right.

            You are a rape apologist who believes that an 8 year old girl should be obligated to birth her rapist’s offspring.

            You are a monster.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Right.

            I am not a rape apologist. Convict the man. Don’t kill the child.

            Wanting to do that makes you the monster.

          • Valde

            By forcing a vicitm of rape to carry the rapist’s offspring you are punishing her you sicko.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I disagree. I know rape survivors and offspring who wouldn’t be here were it not for the bravery of the mother.

          • Valde

            Yeah. They made a sacrifice.

            You cannot FORCE people to make a sacrifice, because then it’s not a sacrifice, it’s just SLAVERY.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Is it a sacrifice to raise children and not kill them. Yes. But you don’t have the right to kill your 5 year old because of this. You have the right to give them away in adoption, which you can do with this child as well.

          • Valde

            Still doesn’t erase the trauma of a FORCED rape pregnancy you asshole.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I never said that rape wasn’t traumatic. It merely doesn’t justify taking the life of another so you will feel better about yourself.

          • Valde

            How about not torturing rape victims so that you can feel righteous?

          • Valde

            Forced pregnancy from rape IS traumatic

            You have like zero empathy for women, don’t you?

          • HeilMary1

            YOU don’t have the right to murder wives with your deadly sperm.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Why not leave it up to the rape victim? Hasn’t she had enough control taken away from her already?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well, Gene baby, when you get raped and pregnant, you can decide what to do with it. Until then, leave the decision up to the person who is actually pregnant. Okay?

          • DivineWordRadio

            No. The fact that you have posted in favor of the vile comments made about me makes you no more righteous.

          • HeilMary1

            You’re the one who murdered his wife and defends pedophile priests.

          • Valde

            You are the rape apologist, not Jenn.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Funny, but I don’t recall ever saying that I was righteous. In fact, your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my assertion that a decision about whether or not to carry a pregnancy from rape should lie with the person who’s actually raped.

          • fiona64

            It merely doesn’t justify taking the life of another so you will feel better about yourself.

            As a survivor of sexual assault, I can tell you that this is one of the most asinine comments I’ve ever seen. The aftermath of rape is not about “feeling better about one’s self.” It is about learning how to get through life subsequent to the event. Because I have news for you, Mr. Smart Guy; you don’t ever “get over it.” Furthermore, your words make it appear as though the woman needs to “feel better about herself” for being the victim of a fucking crime. Way to be “pro-life,” there, buddy … but, OTOH, you don’t think women have the right to be not-pregnant, regardless of how it happened.

            Are you aware, Mr. Smart Guy, that in 31 states rapists can *successfully* sue for parental rights, including visitation, with any children resulting from their crime? I support a woman’s right to gestate (or terminate) as she sees fit, but even *you* have to admit that it’s pretty disgusting that a man who sexually assaulted and forcibly impregnated a woman can then have access to her for 18 years *at a minimum* under the law?

            How is that even remotely okay?

            Oh, wait. Another Catholic, one Paul Ryan, says that “rape is just another form of conception.” You *appear* to concur with that assessment … which is why you are being noted as a rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I acknowledge that a rapist should have no rights to a child, and that there are cases where they have. And that is disgusting. It is not even remotely okay.

            I wouldn’t have thought to put it that way, but Ryan is correct. The product of a rape can be a conception. That does not make me a rape apologist. It is merely true.

            An apologist defends the rape. I do not, nor have I.

          • Valde

            You defend the right of a rapist to choose if and when a women bears his offspring.

            Doesn’t matter if you think he should be punished.

            What matters is that you think an 8 yo rape victim should be FORCEd to give birth.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I defend the right of the child to live, rather than be killed for the crimes of her father.

            I does matter whether I think he should be punished.

            You defend the right to kill another.

            What 8 year old? Oh yeah, fiction.

          • colleen

            The 8 and 9 and 12 year olds are not fiction. They are pregnant children that the RCC has tried to kill rather than allow them a lifesaving abortion. There are many of these cases and they are well publicized as are the responses of the local hierarchy. Do not embarrass yourself with simple denials.

            men rape children all the time. Sometimes little girls become pregnant. Then guys like you show up to assure every fremale on the planet that we are garbage and that our lives should be sacrificed for YOUR beliefs. The child is a ritual human sacrifice to those beliefs and those beliefs assure her 2nd class status as a human being.

          • colleen

            so you will feel better about yourself.

            did you think that the problem with rape is that it makes women ashamed of themselves? Lowers our self esteem?
            really?

          • HeilMary1

            Women killed by childbirth can’t be brought back to life, WIFE KILLER.

          • goatini

            Shilling for the global billion-dollar human trafficking adoption syndicate, I see. $10K-$50K per sellable inventory unit to the highest bidder, via criminal agencies that operate on the fringes of established law to exploit innocent females.

          • fiona64

            ::sings to the tune of the “Star Wars” theme::

            Straw men, nothing but straw men …

          • HeilMary1

            You mean the FORCED SLAVERY AND EXECUTION of the mothers.

          • goatini

            Yeah, mentally ill sickos like the vicious Rebecca Kiessling, for example. She’s living proof that criminal mental illness is hereditary.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are the sick one. And HeilMary1 is living proof that criminal mental illness is hereditary.

          • Valde

            She isn’t the one who thinks that is’ moral to force 8 year old rape victims to give birth

            The fact that you cannot see this shows how fucked up you really are.

          • HeilMary1

            So raped altar boys are criminals for reporting priests’ crimes?

          • goatini

            Science (genetically transmitted mental illness, with potential to develop into active sociopathic criminal activity) says I’m correct. Nothing “sick” about facts.

          • fiona64

            And that was their *choice.* Women in the same circumstances are NOT required to make the same choice.

          • Valde

            I always like to bring up the prospect of the 8 year old rape victim just to see how depraved these guys really are…

          • HeilMary1

            You want the rapist’s fetus to maim and murder the child also!

          • DivineWordRadio

            You obviously know nothing about either sex or childbirth.

          • Valde

            Hey jackass, a pregnancy can KILL and maim an 8 year old because her uterus and hips are too fucking small you sick ignorant fuck

          • HeilMary1

            Dumbass, you ADMITTED that childbirth KILLED YOUR WIFE! Yet you insist intersex gays are unworthy of marriage!

          • Jennifer Starr

            I know that the fact that a girl is menstruating, which can start at 9 or even younger, is no indication that her body is physically capable of bearing a child. At 10 years old I was 4’7″ and all of 80 pounds soaking wet. A pregnancy would’ve ripped me in half.

          • colleen

            I know that the bodies and spirits of children are destroyed by rape and abuse. I know that you and your Church are abusive. Nobody has ever been excommunicated for raping and/or impregnating a child. Not even when the act results in the death of the child. actual children, mind you, not zygotes or fetuses. actual sentient, thinking feeling children.

            Here’s the thing with guys like you. You try to control US. You do not try to control yourselves. That produces monsters.

          • goatini

            No – wanting to inflict, by force, irreparable physical, mental, spiritual and emotional punishment upon an innocent victim of violent felony sexual assault IS monstrous. The WOMAN is the innocent victim.

          • colleen

            When you insist that an 8 year old rape victim be forced to continue a pregnancy you are no better than the man or men who raped her.

          • colleen

            He is a conservative doctrinaire Catholic and they treat women like garbage.

          • Valde

            Yep, and the most irritating part of it is they think this view is morally righteous.

          • HeilMary1

            Your wife was a human being, not a sperm incubator.

          • goatini

            More rape apologia.

          • fiona64

            Considering that no woman is required to disclose the reason she seeks abortion, and rape is significantly under-reported (because of victim-blamers like you have demonstrated yourself to be), there is no way for that number to be even remotely accurate.

            Not that you care.

          • HeilMary1

            Your wife should have said “No sex without a MY life-protecting condom!”

          • fiona64

            So, women who don’t want to be pregnant should just keep their legs shut.

            Of course. Because it’s all about controlling women’s sexuality.

            And, in case you missed the memo? Saying no doesn’t always prevent sexual intercourse. It’s not a magic spell.

          • Valde

            Don’t be so jejune.

    • HeilMary1

      You MURDERED her with your penis and yet you condemn us for our insistence on self-defending safe sex for women?! You condemn gay sex and abortions as deadly, but sneer at the millions of childbirth deaths like your wife’s and the millions of children you force to be born, then starved to death!? You are the epitome of RCC cult depravity.

      • DivineWordRadio

        You are sick. You don’t know what murder is. Abortion is murder, because it is intentional and wrongful taking of life. You are opposed to birth at all. Pity, because that is so wrong. I’m looking at the depravity every time I receive a post from you.

        • HeilMary1

          Having sex with your wife is INTENTIONAL MURDER and her dead body is PROOF.

    • colleen

      It provided all any compassionate woman needed to see that your philosophy is sick and twisted.

      I understand that you posted that to garner sympathy and cooing. Why should anyone here believe you? You have done nothing but lie and manipulate and then abuse us when we point that out. Our compassion to your children, particularly the girls.

      • HeilMary1

        I’ll bet the dead wife was relying on “100%” effective NFP to avoid that pregnancy. And Depraved Gene has the nerve to stand on her dead body and claim pregnancies are never diseases.

        • DivineWordRadio

          I’d bet you were wrong. She wanted this child. Pregnancy is not a disease. But your mental status is certainly called into question.

          • HeilMary1

            If pregnancy isn’t a disease, why is she DEAD? You’re so brainwashed, you don’t see that you just contradicted yourself! Her death is proof that pregnancy and childbirth are a zillion deadly diseases.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Walking isn’t a disease, but if you cross an interstate, you could be dead. You are sick. You obviously believe that life is a disease.

          • Valde

            We don’t force people to cross the interstate, jackass.

          • DivineWordRadio

            And you aren’t forcing your spouse to have sex. You are sick.

          • Valde

            The point, since it seemed to go over your head, is that we do not force people to put themselves in harms way.

            Forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will = putting her in harm’s way.

            And you would do that to an 8 year old rape victim. You’re a depraved monster.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then you are clueless as well.

          • Valde

            Explain how.

            You are the one who believes that an 8 year old rape victim is a slaveowner if she chooses to abort

          • HeilMary1

            Would an emergency abortion have saved your wife’s life? Or did you treat her like dying Dr. Savita in Ireland and ignore her fatal complications out of misplaced respect for the overvalued fetus?

          • HeilMary1

            REAL contraception would have saved her life, but you despise the right to life of us already born women, including your has-been brood mares.

          • colleen

            and you believe women are fertilizer for ‘life’.

          • goatini

            Pregnancy is a risky and dangerous health condition that can result in permanent disability or death. If your word as her proxy could have saved your life, then I’d say YOUR mental status is what should be called into question. If your word as her proxy could have saved her life, then on a 1-10 scale of evil, a guy who wants a one-night stand is maybe a 3, while you would be a 10.

  • fiona64

    So he’s a homophobe as well as misogynist? I’m not even surprised; both attitudes are about believing that rigid gender roles must always be obeyed. Explains why he’s a forced-birther … wimmens is no good for nuthin’ but makin’ baybees.

  • grantal

    What is the Catholic church doing to stop the slaughter of born human children by guns?
    NOTHING! So go cry your pro-life to some other planet because we are not buying your ridiculous claim that fetuses are so important because they are humans before birth. What about AFTER they are born? Answer: fetuses are being used to control and regulate women by politicians and religious men. it is SOOOO OBVIOUS . DUH
    Have to bring guns into this because I am so sick of the hypocrisy of the forced birth crowds. They are pro guns in general. The two do not and never will go together.

    • HeilMary1

      Pro-gun forced-birthers can’t wait to shoot and profit off shooting forced-birth fetuses. Gene Church probably has George Zimmerman and Scott Roeder altars next to a “Virgin” Mother altar.

      • DivineWordRadio

        You’d be wrong on all aspects of your claim, as you are on most everything you say.

    • colleen

      by electing Republicans they encourage and enable the slaughter of born children so I would say they’re doing a lot.

      • DivineWordRadio

        Most bishops in this country are registered Democrats. Church teaching isn’t Republican or Democrat, it is Catholic. And your statement is hyperbole.

        • HeilMary1

          Then you missed Deal Hudson aka rapist/adulterer/polygamist/gay basher GOP enforcer for the USCCB during our last several elections.

          • DivineWordRadio

            No I didn’t. I stand by my point.

          • Valde

            Which is that you hate women?

          • DivineWordRadio

            No, that Church teaching is Catholic, not Republican or Democrat. You are the hater.

          • Valde

            Why do you refuse to admit that you hate women?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Because I do not hate women.

          • Valde

            Prove it.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Prove that I do.

          • Valde

            1) you believe rape pregnancies are a gift from god

            2) you believe that women are too stupid to make their own reproductive choices

            3) you believe that anatomy is destiny, at least for women

          • DivineWordRadio

            1) Yes I do. All persons are a gift from God.

            2) I do not. I believe that women are being degraded and used as a tool by men who want them for sex alone. And women who think this is great are the ones who must think women are stupid.

            3) I believe that anatomy is a part of our destiny. I won’t be delivering any children anytime soon.

          • Valde

            1) rape apologist

            2) so you don’t think women have the right to enjoy sex? right, you think women are too stupid other than to be used for sex. there’s that misogyny

            3) well dumbass, it isn’t. just because a woman can have a baby doesn’t mean she is an object, like a bakers oven, for making babies.

          • DivineWordRadio

            1) lying name caller.

            2) I do think women have the right to enjoy sex. That comes with it.

            3) You have the right to be wrong on this as you are on other things.

          • Valde

            1) you believe in forcing rape victims to give birth. sorry, that’s rape apology

            2) right, women are stupid s1uts in your view. I forgot

            3) no, you have reproductively objectified women, mere objects for your penis and offspring

          • DivineWordRadio

            1) Then you are an idiot.

            2) No, you lie.

            3) No, you lie again.

          • Valde

            Prove me wrong. Show how much you care for women.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I already have. I won’t watch them destroy their children.

          • Valde

            Right. So you want to enslave women. That’s how you show your love.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nope. You are wrong.

          • goatini

            But you’ll allow a putative “child” to destroy a woman’s life. What a hypocrite.

          • fiona64

            But you don’t care about the rights of born, sapient, sentient women … including victims of sexual assault. You have made it abundantly clear that women’s rights are non-existent in your eyes, because we must be slaves to our biology.

            An abortion does not, as has painstakingly been pointed out to you, “destroy a child.” An embryo is *not* a child. You appear to believe that it is a teensy, weensy, perfectly formed infant that just gets bigger in the uterus.

            Well, I have news for you; we learned a long time ago that the homunculus theory of human development is wrong.

          • colleen

            Don’t look now but I’m strangling a zygote…….

          • HeilMary1

            And dead objects for funeral directors!

          • colleen

            I believe that women are being degraded and used as a tool by men
            who want them for sex alone. And women who think this is great are the
            ones who must think women are stupid.

            I have NO DOUBT that sex with you is a degrading experience. I believe that is true of sex with the majority of Republican and certainly the ‘men’ of the religious right. But I remind you that sex with n0ormal men, men who are able to imagine something other than a dominance/submission relationship, someone capable of love and independent thought. Someone with a sense of justice and fair play, someone with kindness and humor….it is not demeaning at all. On the contrary,

          • DivineWordRadio

            You don’t know what a normal man is, any more than you apparently know what life is, or appreciate the sanctity of it. You appear to lack an understanding of what a sense of justice is, or fair play.

          • Valde

            A normal man wouldn’t force an 8 year old rape victim to give birth and then pretend that SHE IS THE SLAVEOWNER.

            You sick fuck.

          • colleen

            Ya, because ‘normal’ men are like you. ‘Normal’ men enjoy hurting and demeaning women. Normal men recognize that those 6 year olds are seductive and that women really enjoy demeaned and dominated. It’s part of the Joy of Traditional Marriage.

          • goatini

            Allowing one’s partner to unnecessarily expire (assuming that she could have been saved by safe, legal pregnancy termination) displays not “sanctity of life”, but depraved indifference to life.

          • fiona64

            Your sense of “justice and fair play” is kind of sick, in my mind, since you think that women have no right to either the minute they become pregnant and must be treated as little dimwits whose ladybrainz can’t make a medical decision that affects you not one iota.

          • goatini

            Okay, thank you for proving, without a doubt, that you either hate women, or hold them in depraved indifference. A rape pregnancy is most emphatically NOT a “gift from God” – a rape pregnancy means THE RAPIST HAS WON. A rape pregnancy is the second violent sexual assault upon an innocent rape victim, and in your mind, YOU want it to be torture that never ends.

            I want to know why every OTHER victim of violent felony assault deserves to get prompt medical treatment to make them as whole as possible to what they were before the assault – but an innocent victim of violent felony sexual assault not only DOESN’T deserve such treatment, but deserves to be PUNISHED for being an innocent crime victim. A bullet from a mugger? No one disagrees with removing that bodily violation. But tainted criminal DNA from a mentally ill sex criminal – when we know that most mental illnesses are genetically linked – YOU want to FORCE the innocent victim and her family’s DNA to be forever tainted with this damaged DNA administered by force.

            (Oh, and it’s a very regressive, controlling, and demeaning way to view female sexuality as “degrad(ed)” if it occurs outside of chattel property breeding livestock status under Church-approved male ownership. Women now have personal agency to live their own lives. We no longer must be male property. We are now fully actualized humans.)

          • goatini

            What about Karen Santorum’s abortion? Do you hold Rick in contempt for not letting HER die?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Another lie.

            h ttp://ww w.salon.c om/2012/01/06/karen_santorum_did_not_have_an_abortion/

          • goatini

            Right, so much “truth” in that article that the “expert” source felt a need to remain anonymous. Some “expert”.

            Here are the FACTS:

            In October, 1996, his wife Karen had a second trimester abortion. They don’t like to describe it that way. In his 2004 interview with Terry Gross, Santorum characterizes the fetus, who must be treated as an autonomous person, as a practically a gunslinging threat, whom the mother must murder in self-defense. Karen has had to justify her decision to save her own life by explaining that if she died her other children would have lost a mother.

            Republican extremists in Congress and the statehouses propose to make abortion illegal even if it would save the mother’s life. Even the Santorums admit they would make that choice, while claiming that they didn’t.

            Losing a pregnancy because of a fatal fetal anomaly is never cause for celebration. The pain of second-trimester abortions is compounded by the hateful hypocrites who vilify families facing sorrowful circumstances, and the resulting scarcity of abortion clinicians.

            It is revolting that Rick and Karen Santorum choose to stigmatize and harass those of us who, as they did, grieve over the loss of a possible child in the second trimester.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Here are the facts. You are lying. I bothered to post a Salon article, because I thought it might carry credibility with this crowd,

            Your statement is a lie.

          • fiona64

            Well, I guess we can argue about whether inducing labor at 20 weeks’ gestation (at which point a fetus has ZERO chance of survival) is or is not an abortion … but it seems pointless to me.

          • HeilMary1

            Remember the notorious dying Phoenix mother also had an early delivery ABORTION at 11 weeks, but since she wasn’t married to a professional misogynist like Karen, she and her saviors got excommunicated.

          • goatini

            Sorry, not buying Mr “Dr” Anonymous “Expert”, regardless of whether the content aggregator is Salon, or Matty Drudge.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Given your hate filled screeds, I really don’t care.

          • Valde

            You are the one who has dismissed her losses – her relatives died in the holocaust.

            She has every right to be angry with you for comparing them to microscopic bits tissue.

          • goatini

            Once again, projecting your shortcomings and actions upon your innocent opposition. Par for the course from someone who also wants innocent rape victims to suffer punishment and torture.

          • HeilMary1

            You just use fetuses to maim and murder them on behalf of pedophile priests and adulterous wife dumpers like Deal Hudson.

          • colleen

            I think you just enjoy hurting women and actual children.

          • goatini

            Of course not, insofar as much as they can be used and exploited.

          • colleen

            and yet that is all you demonstrate.

          • goatini

            Baloney. Over the last 20 years, the RCC in the United States has been a bully pulpit for the GOTP. FACT.

          • colleen

            That was not your point. Youir assertion was that the majority of US Bishops are registered Democrats. I called bullshit.

            The fact of the matter is that the Bishops are Republican hard right religious right and contributing authors to the GOP’s war on women and you are lying again.

          • colleen

            you sure are one stupid lawyer.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are probably right, for wasting time posting with you.

          • colleen

            Not a waste of time. We’ve managed to demonstrate that the Bishops are far right Republicans and that you are just a sad little liar.

          • DivineWordRadio

            No, we’ve established that you are a hateful little woman who lies, and has nothing to back up her position.

          • Lizzie

            awww the RCC is doing things that DWR doesn’t like!

          • DivineWordRadio

            As always, you’d be wrong.

          • colleen

            When I look at the vote count for the food stamp cuts and the numerous attempts to continue to deny the poor access to affordable healthcare it’s the ‘pro-life’ candidates, the men and women YOU vote for and support who are savaging the poor. Rather than accept personal responsibility or even acknowledge reality you resort to the arguments of a 2 year old.

        • colleen

          Most bishops in this country are registered Democrats.

          bullshit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            August 16, 2013 Washington Post, “the Catholic Church had a long and often incestuous relationship with the democratic party. In the part of the country that Bishop Tobin and I call home, stories still abound about how Boston’s Cardinal Cushing helped the Kennedys and got them out of numerous difficulties.”

          • colleen

            that is not evidence. That is an a fragment from an op-ed that fails to support your assertion that “Most bishops in this country are registered Democrats”
            why lie?

          • goatini

            Like I said, maybe in 1962.

        • goatini

          “Most bishops in this country are registered Democrats. ”

          Maybe in 1962.

    • DivineWordRadio

      This is a political, and not a moral issue. Prudential judgment affects the decisions of Catholics here, meaning that a Catholic may be on either side of this issue.

      These are not moral equivalents. One brings about a definite killing, and the other does not. One is intended to kill a child, and the other is not.

      There is no hypocrisy on this one. And, the question is simple. Is abortion morally acceptable? And the answer is simple: no.

      • HeilMary1

        Having sex with your wife, knowing that childbirth would likely maim or murder her, is criminal homicide with your penis as the weapon, but you went ahead anyway because pedophile you hoped you’d get to molest the resulting new kid! How dare you lecture us, you murdering sex abuser!

        • DivineWordRadio

          “would likely maim or murder her?” What are you smoking? You obviously must have sexual relations differently than the rest of the world. Then you call me a pedophile and you attack and lie about me and about my child. You are a sick woman. Your lack of truth is obvious, and you are a sick woman. It appears every bit as sick as your mother.

          • Valde

            You probably are a pedo. That’s why you have so many kids.

          • DivineWordRadio

            That just shows that you are as evil as I suspected. I have as many children as I do because I recognize the value of life. You think it is here to serve you.

          • Valde

            No, just moral.

            You recognize the value of using your wife and children as sex slaves.

            That’s pretty SICK.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Your language and your posts stand by themselves to support my position.

            Sex slaves? You obviously haven’t been in my home. And my children are no one’s sex slaves.

            You are pretty sick.

          • Valde

            Riiiight.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Yes you are.

          • Valde

            Whatever. I can’t trust a rape apologist/pedo on anything.

          • HeilMary1

            Especially one who has no remorse for causing his wife’s childbirth death!

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are a sick, vile woman.

          • Valde

            You are a sick, vile rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are a liar.

          • Valde

            You are a rape lover.

          • DivineWordRadio

            sicko

          • Valde

            Talkin about yourself I see.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Just you, and HeilMary.

          • HeilMary1

            Mean Gene Church (of Satan)!

          • goatini

            Yes, we know, women who stand for the civil, human and Constitutional rights of female US citizens are, to you, “sick” and “vile”. It bothers us when actual living, breathing women die needlessly in service to medieval dogma.

          • DivineWordRadio

            And I can’t trust a malicious liar such as you–period.

          • Valde

            What have I lied about?

            From what I have seen, you’re a misogynist, rape loving, pedo loving pervert

          • DivineWordRadio

            You dared to call me a pedophile, and want to know what you lied about?

          • Valde

            Ok, that was just conjecture on my part.

            After all, you view women as mere objects…and you think an 8 year old girl should be forced to give birth to her rapist’s offspring

            You certainly have the VIEWS of a pedophile.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You need to learn what conjecture is, then.

            You obviously know as little about the views of a pedophile as you do my views, the value of life, or the truth.

          • Valde

            I know what HM says about you, and I trust her.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then you lack judgment.

          • Valde

            I know a misogynist rape apologist when I see one, and you are one.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Then you know nothing.

          • goatini

            You haven’t replied to either of my comments about rape apologists. Instead, you keep, well, being a rape apologist.

          • HeilMary1

            Ditto.

          • HeilMary1

            You sure don’t care about causing your wife’s death with sex!

          • colleen

            You should take more care. We understand pedophiles and pedophile enabling quite well and we FULLY understand what you and your sick, sick Church are about.

          • HeilMary1

            They haven’t reported you or the family priests yet!

          • DivineWordRadio

            Thank you for showing the world how much of a vile liar you are.

          • HeilMary1

            Vile lying WIFE MURDERER!

          • DivineWordRadio

            Liar.

          • goatini

            Prove it. Would your first wife’s life been saved by terminating the pregnancy that (you admitted) was the cause of her demise? If so, why didn’t you insist upon it?

          • HeilMary1

            He had a new younger model lined up to replace her.

          • goatini

            I see he won’t respond as to whether he could have saved his first wife’s life, had he acted as her proxy to insist upon it. Very telling.

          • HeilMary1

            You can’t keep your penis in your pants and have a childbirth-murdered wife as evidence!

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are a sick, malicious, lying woman

          • Valde

            You are a sick, malicious, lying rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Sick

          • Valde

            Rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            sicko Valde.

          • Valde

            Look in the mirror.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I have. Thank goodness I don’t see you.

          • Valde

            No, you just see a monster who BEILEVES THAT 8 YEAR OLDS SHOULD BE FORCED TO GIVE BIRTH AFTER BEING REPEATEDLY RAPED

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nope.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A rape apologist is precisely what you are.

          • HeilMary1

            Regular childbirth shreds and infects multiple organs and results in bladder and bowel incontinence and multiple organ failures, hence your wife’s DEATH, and you pompously fatuously persist in denying your sex with her had anything to do with her murder?! My best friend, whose face was rotted by her cancer-triggering daughters, lost the nose on her face and finally her life giving birth to her own OTHER WOMAN whom her new bully husband bragged about molesting!

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are a sick, malicious, lying woman Heil

          • Valde

            You are a sick, maliicous. lying rape lover

          • DivineWordRadio

            Thanks for letting us know how sick you are.

          • Valde

            I’m not the one that loves rape.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You sound like you do. That is what you keep talking about.

          • Valde

            No, contrary to your fantasies, women don’t enjoy being raped and forced to give birth.

          • fiona64

            No, she’s telling the truth about potential pregnancy complications.

      • fiona64

        So, the death of born, sapient, sentient children by gun violence is moral, in your eyes? How ridiculous.

        It is absolutely a moral equivalent. You argue that a non-sapient, non-sentient embryo must be protected at the expense of the bodily autonomy of a pregnant woman, but you don’t appear to give a shit about the death of actual *children.*

        Is abortion morally acceptable?

        And herein lies the problem with the word “moral.” Whose morals do we use to establish a baseline? Yours? Mine? The raven on the rooftop?

        The only person whose “morality” matters in this case is that of the pregnant woman. She can make her reproductive decisions as she sees fit, without interference from some preaching busy-body like you.

        • HeilMary1

          Who used a fetus to murder his OWN wife!

      • colleen

        This is a political, and not a moral issue.

        so it’s really all right that Catholics think it’s just fine to murder unarmed black children for walking down a street. Because murdering unarmed children isn’t a moral issue, it’s a political one.

      • grantal

        No it is both! Guns kill. Whether a person shoots clay pigeons with one or not guns kill either by accident or on purpose, to kill animals or humans guns were meant to kill. (exception is a gun collector or target shooter) Still they kill. Cars kill too that is why they are regulated and registered. Is it moral to own guns to kill animals? I think not but that is MY opinion and the opinion of others I know. For some it is and that is their opinion.
        I think the crazed boy who went into that school had already made up his mind to kill as many as possible. He knew what he was doing.
        Compare a car to a gun. They both KILL whether intentional or not.
        is abortion morally acceptable? To many YES. Sorry you don’t respect the opinions of people who do not think like you but that is what makes the world go around. I would hate it if we were all the same mold.

        • DivineWordRadio

          These are not moral equivalents. You point our that “that is MY opinion,” which only makes out my point that this is a prudential judgment.

          Abortion is intended to end the life of the child. And the Church places it as one of the non-negotiables.

          • grantal

            The church? I don’t go to that church. Religion is a man-made institution. Christianity is following Jesus. Jesus and the Bible never made any reference to abortion.
            So your opinion is going by the Catholic religion not Christianity and not what ALL people believe in. Jesus would not caste stones or force anyone to do as He said. He gave us all free will. The best all of you forced birth people can do is pray for change. You cannot “force” your will on anyone. It never works and only causes more problems.
            This is the whole entire problem with the forced birth crowd. They want to force morals on everyone regardless. So UN-Christian.
            If you don’t believe in abortion then don’t have one but leave your forced morals out of it.

      • CJ99

        In the same breath you say its not about morals then scream about morals. you’re not only twisted & evil but so far beyond stupid there’s not even a word for it.

  • DivineWordRadio

    I’m tired of you women who truly are anti-woman, and anti-human being. I’m referring to HeilMary, Valde, and colleen, among others. You are sick and twisted. You think it is cute to attack me about my wife. It only shows how small and sick you are. I was asked didn’t I have something better to do.

    I do. That includes spending time with my family, and working to see these laws that allow abortions to occur be overturned.

    Keep whistling in the graveyard, of the children you will never see. And I’ll shake the dust off my sandals and move on.

    And even for those of you full of vile and hatred, may God have mercy on your souls.

    • Valde

      You know what’s sick and twisted?

      Your believe that a pre-teen rape victim is the equivalent of a NAZI SLAVEOWNER if she chooses to end a forced pregnancy.

      The fact that you cannot see how sick and depraved that is is proof that you’re one sick twisted puppy.

    • fiona64

      I’m tired of you women who truly are anti-woman, and anti-human being.

      Well, I’m tired of you men who are truly anti-woman and anti-human being. I guess that puts us on equal footing, eh?

      Keep whistling in the graveyard, of the children you will never see. </i.

      What an asinine assertion. Do you truly believe that no pro-choice people have children? I guess I'll have to tell my 27-year-old son that, according to some misogynistic nutter on the internet, he doesn't exist.

      (Why is my whole comment not showing up?)

    • HeilMary1

      What a whiny wife murderer/rape apologist scumbag you are. You are too morally bankrupt to care that YOU caused your wife’s death and you accuse us of having no morals?? Creeps like you flocked to the Nazi party for its holy misogyny and homophobia torture opportunities.

    • fiona64

      Keep whistling in the graveyard, of the children you will never see. </i.

      What an asinine assertion. Do you truly believe that no pro-choice people have children? I guess I'll have to tell my 27-year-old son that, according to some misogynistic nutter on the internet, he doesn't exist.

      (Re-posted since Disqus is acting up again …)

      • HeilMary1

        He’s livid that he and his priest buddies didn’t get to molest every zygote that ever existed.

    • colleen

      You need to find another blog. Perhaps one where you can receive mental heath counseling

      • CJ99

        I know its an old thread but that lunatic is so far beyond help I doubt anything but solitary confinement would do anything beyond exposing others to his insanity.

    • goatini

      Since you are the party here full of “vile and hatred”, just more BS projection from a forced-birther projectionist.

      • DivineWordRadio

        You are the one that agreed that I was a murderer. Save it.

        • HeilMary1

          Because you DID murder your wife! You could have used condoms or practiced total abstinence for the next 30 years.

        • goatini

          I keep asking if you could have saved your first wife’s life if you’d intervened as her proxy and insisted on it. You refuse to confirm or deny. Silence in most cases usually amounts to complicity.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’m angry and disgusted with you, and I’ve ignored you. But to answer the question, no I couldn’t have intervened. She died 10 days post partum, and we knew nothing about this outcome before it happened.

            In your instance response amounts to complicity.

          • Valde

            Yeah, you’re disgusted with someone who lost relatives in the holocaust because you have the gall to compare her lost family to a microscopic embryo

            She is the victim here, NOT YOU asshole.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nothing justifies your actions here.

          • Valde

            Yeah? And what makes my actions so evil?

            The fact that I would stand up for the right of an 8 yo rape victim to get an abortion

            Yeah, you truly are one sick fucker

          • colleen

            But, you see, you came here claiming dominion and spiritual authority and you have NOTHING. You’re just a weak, petty, woman hater who enjoys berating and condemning women. It’s a common fundie self indulgence. You’re just pathetic bullies pretending to authority you aren’t entitled to.

            We were talking with you because it’s really good sometimes to for others to see how extreme the folks like you are.how indifferent you are to the suffering of others. How petty. and SUCH a bully.

            You want us to DIE for your beliefs and the most you will suffer is an insult to your exceptionally bloated and ugly ego. fuck you.

          • DivineWordRadio

            It is time for you to learn how those with compassion and care for those destroyed by abortion feel.

            I want no one to die. You, sadly, do.

          • Valde

            You don’t give a shit if women die in childbirth.

          • DivineWordRadio

            As with many things, you are wrong.

          • HeilMary1

            You want mothers and already born children to suffer gruesome deaths.

          • HeilMary1

            Whiny Gene could never live with the gruesome complications that have ruined millions of mothers.

          • fiona64

            I am sorry for your loss, truly … but I find it disturbing that you think that all women should be made to risk life and limb for *unwanted* pregnancy. Your wife’s case should really have had the effect of making your more empathetic, not more of a strait-laced, fundamentalist jerk.

          • DivineWordRadio

            While I completely disagree with your conclusion, you may have won the award for the least offensive post of the day.

          • fiona64

            Dude, the fact that you think my possession of a uterus makes me subject to having my rights revoked is so far beyond offensive that I have no capacity to *care* whether you are offended by my observation. Most people who lose loved ones to a tragedy are not eager to *force others* to risk the same tragedy.

          • goatini

            “As my wife died of childbirth complications” – QUOTE

            Childbirth is a finite event – as YOU have been so fond of pointing out throughout this thread. Like all that nonsense about “sixty seconds before the scalpel was used”.

            I won’t pose the question any more, but I’m not convinced about “10 days”, nor am I convinced that “we knew nothing”, unless there was some reason why ongoing obstetric care throughout the term was NOT sought out and a regimen of scheduled checkups NOT adhered to. The memory of your first wife has my utmost sympathy, however it happened.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Frankly I’m not concerned what a heartless woman thinks about my wife. She died 10 days post partum because of the law of unintended consequences. The federal government passed a law ostensibly to guaranty minimum hospital stays for women, but which resulted in shorter and shorter stays. She was released from the hospital 36 hours post partum. She continued to have vaginal bleeding, up to 5 days post partum. I took her to another hospital, where she had a dangerously low H&H level. She was transfused 3 units of blood, resulting in congestive heart failure. She was readmitted to the hospital and given lasix to remove the fluid. She had a heart attack 2 days later, while at home, and while being transported in an ambulance, had another heart attack, which necessitated that I assist to give CPR in the ambulance personally. The autopsy later showed an 11 cm segment of placental tissue that was missed at the hospital. Is this enough information for you?

            She had checkups and prenatal care.

            And I’m sorry, but what I’ve heard hear does not sound like utmost sympathy.

          • Valde

            Probably because you are callously exploiting her death to gain sympathy.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are a sick little woman. I pity you.

          • HeilMary1

            The missed placental tissue and following heart attacks have killed millions of women, even at good hospitals, and your GOP took away those needed routine extra hospital days. One single African immigrant mother and her infant died of the same complication. She died alone in her apartment and no one knew about her infant, who then died of starvation and dehydration. REAL family planning and AHA which you oppose avert these disasters.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I made the mistake of leaving this page open, and saw this particular post. Unlike some of the other hateful ones you posted, this one is just simply wrong and off the mark.

            Having been involved with passing legislation on this issue, your claim about “millions” of women dying of this is false.

            And it was Clinton and the Democrats that passed the Newborns’ and Mothers’ Health Protection Act, which had the perhaps unintended consequence of shortening hospital stays.

            Your claims in your anectdotal example are also speculative, with no proof whatsoever. The AHA would not have solved this problem.

          • Valde

            She didn’t say that the legislation has killed milions of women, dumbass, just that missed placental tisssue has, over many years, killed millions of women.

            Over the entirety of history, pregnancy has been the #1 killer of women.

          • HeilMary1

            Thank you! That’s exactly what I meant.

          • colleen

            On my planet the House and Senate were under GOP control in 1996 and fat little adulterous Newt Gingrich was Speaker. I wish that the ‘men’ of the religious right would learn to take personal responsibility for their stupidity and cruelty. But then they would have to have a conscience

          • DivineWordRadio

            On your planet, you missed my point, and unlike the earlier post, or yours, it was not meant to be political. Please note I referred to the Law of Unintended Consequences. The bill was sponsored by Senator Bill Bradley (D-NJ). It has 32 Democratic co-sponsors, and 19 Republicans. It passed with bipartisan support, but virtual unanimous appeal by Democrats. In October of 1998, Clinton’s Department of Labor, Justice, and Health & Human Services promulgated the regulations on hospitals. The end result of those regulations, and good intention, was that hospitals quit performing routine Complete Blood Counts with Differential, and physicians began sending women home earlier and earlier, since the law allowed the physician to shorten the timespan, but did not allow insurance companies to do so without the physician. Why quit an inexpensive lab? Because if you have no proof of “complications,” then the hospital stay minimum shortens to 48 hours for a vaginal delivery without a physician shortening it, and even less if he or she does. With complications, the minimum stay was 96 hours for a C-section or complications.

            Your political bile is showing. I suspect everyone, from Bill Bradley on, thought this was going to be better for women. It really has not been. The law that I passed in Alabama mirrored the Federal law, but required CBCs with differential upon admission and discharge of women, and did not allow stay times to be shortened except with informed written consent of the woman.

            And this is another irritating reason that your name calling against me shows a lack of depth of understanding.

          • HeilMary1

            Whoop-dee-doo! You still deserve name calling because your bread crumb “gift” to brood mares doesn’t save them from the zillion other deadly childbirth complications, which you still impose on them by denying them contraception, abortions and sterilizations!

          • colleen

            In that case your point is simple deflection of responsibility. You think like a 5 year old

          • fiona64

            The law that I passed in Alabama

            Oh, you passed a law, did you?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Well, I drafted it. I presented it to the Alabama legislature over a 5 month period, with my daughter and I as the only ones lobbying for it. And it passed unanimously. And was signed by the Governor. And since you are looking for something to fight about, looks like you found a point to do so.

          • fiona64

            Well, I find it a teensy bit intellectually dishonest to conflate drafting something with passing it … but you rock on with your bad self.

          • CJ99

            Indeed you passed something, but LAW isn’t the word for it. Not that your fantasy is the least bit credible.

          • CJ99

            “your planet”? I hope your not calling that planet Earth since you know nothing of it. If you did live hear I’d head for the nearest rocket launch and hitch hike to anyplace that is NOT here!

          • CJ99

            I’ve seem some truly vile fanatics in my life, but you truly bite the biscuit of disgust. You are truly the polar opposite of who you claim to be.

          • HeilMary1

            You’ve confirmed another one of my points: that most childbirth deaths don’t get reported as such because the deaths occur days and even years later. But pig you lies and insists childbirth is safer than abortion, even though your dead wife proves otherwise. Because she died, we here support avoiding unwanted pregnancies through reliable contraception, etc., but you even oppose contraception and wouldn’t even practice abstinence!

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’ve confirmed nothing, except that you are a liar, and claim science says something, that it doesn’t.

            First of all, her pregnancy was not unwanted. Secondly, abortion is not reliable contraceptives. Third, you are mean spirited. I suspect that ugly shows inside and out.

          • Valde

            Look in a mirror.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Thankfully I don’t see you.

          • HeilMary1

            That’s because the sight of me would make any fetal idolater a believer in abortion.

          • HeilMary1

            As always, you completely missed my point.

        • CJ99

          Wait, did you even realize you just admitted to murder? and we disgust you? wonders never cease.

    • expect_resistance

      Can’t take it? How do you think women feel as they are being shamed, yelled at, and humiliated by anti-choice – forced birther zealots like you, when all they want to do is have bodily autonomy? How do you think these women feel as they enter a woman’s clinic seeking medical services abortion or not – that they have every right to – and then get yelled at, called “baby killers” or worse?

      Let’s talk mercy. Mercy is compassion. I have yet to meet any anti-choicer or any forced birther that has an ounce of compassion. So once again screw your church your bullshit religion. It’s all about power and control. I hope someday you understand, truly understand the meaning of compassion. I see no compassion in anything you have posted here.

      • DivineWordRadio

        Mercy and compassion doesn’t come from condoning immoral actions. I truly feel sorry for any woman who feels that she has no choice but an abortion. Mainly because we do have choices. Those who commit suicide undoubtedly feel the same way, and come up with a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

        I hope someday you understand, truly understand the meaning of compassion.

        • fiona64

          I hate to break it to you, Mr. Church, but you don’t get to dictate what is or is not moral for other people.

          You’re not a deity of any sort.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I hate to break it to you, but you don’t get to dictate what is or is not moral for other people.

            I don’t claim to be a Diety. I simply follow one who does have that authority.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Authority in your world. Not everyone’s.

          • fiona64

            I hate to break it to you, but you don’t get to dictate what is or is not moral for other people.

            Which is exactly what I said. Christ Almighty; do you not understand plain English?

            I don’t get to decide for anyone else — and neither do you. Your morality is not universal, no matter how much you might believe it to be.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I understand plain English. I merely stated that you didn’t get to dictate what is or is not moral. That is from God.

            Oh, and we decide every day. We say that you can’t rape someone, or murder someone, or steal from someone. These are moral decisions.

          • Valde

            Excuse me.

            hahahaah
            hahahahahahaha

            hahahahaahahahahah

            I will let fiona tell you allll about abortion in the bible.

          • fiona64

            Oh, yes. Numbers 5:11-31, in which a woman is forced to consume an abortifacient. How do we know it was an abortifacient? Well, that comes with some scary, science-y stuff. The formula involved dust from the temple floor … which would have contained rotting grain from previous sacrifices. Rotting grain contains ergotamine — which is an abortifacient.

          • CJ99

            Ergot as previously stated also being an hallucinogen akin to LSD which in UNdevinds case explains a great many things.

          • fiona64

            I merely stated that you didn’t get to dictate what is or is not moral. That is from God.

            Which god?

            See, that is kind of my point. Your morality, and its theoretical source, are not universal.

            We say that you can’t rape someone, or murder someone, or steal from someone. These are moral decisions.

            No, actually, they aren’t. See that word “someone” in there? It’s because laws are based on something called the harm principle, not morality. These things are not illegal because they are immoral, but because they cause harm to *persons* (note that word, it’s important) and prevent them being safe and secure in their property and liberty.

            Thus, it is not illegal to contemplate murder, but to do it. It is not illegal to contemplate rape, but to do it. It is not illegal to contemplate robbery, but to do it. Until a person is harmed under one of those laws, there is no crime.

            Do you see the difference? Catholic scriptural morality says that even thinking about those things is a crime, and must be confessed ASAP. The law, with its harm principle, says no such thing.

          • DivineWordRadio

            That assumes that “someone” is of value. Slavery laws stated that some people were not of value. Abortion laws do the same thing. In China, women do not have the right to have more than one child.

            How does society decide who will be a person or not, and be entitled to rights under the law?

            You use the term “Thus,” but fail to provide the necessary link. Actually, it is illegal to contemplate murder, or rape, and we use the term “attempted” as a separate crime.

            When you decide who a person will be, then you decide whether the non-person may live or die. It doesn’t matter whether it is a Jew, a slave, or a fetus.

            Do you see the difference?

          • Valde

            The same people who can decree that every pregnancy must be brought to term are the same people who can decree that no pregnancy must be brought to term.

            That is the definition of anti-choice and that is what you stand for honey.

          • fiona64

            Congratulations on remaining offensive. A fetus is not a someone, it is a *potential* someone.

            Actually, it is illegal to contemplate murder, or rape

            Really? Please show me a single, solitary law that says it is illegal to think about (contemplate) murder or rape.

            we use the term “attempted” as a separate crime.

            Which is NOT synonymous with thinking about doing something. Attempted murder means you are actually trying to cause harm. Sitting at home fantasizing about killing your evil boss is not illegal; trying to do so (or succeeding at it) *is.* Why? Because contemplation of a crime and commission of a crime are NOT THE SAME THING.

            I don’t think you understand plain English as much as you claim to do.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Congratulations of remaining offensive. A fetus is a someone. Nothing potential about it.

            Contemplation plus some action, is attempt. It is not murder.

          • Valde

            A clump of undifferentiated stem cells is not a ‘someone’ you ignorant twit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You aren’t ignorant, but simply malicious and wrong.

          • CJ99

            Y’know if god gave you a clue it’d simply fall your other ear.

          • fiona64

            A fetus is not a “someone.” It is a *something.*

            Contemplation is NOT an attempt.

            Congratulations on being a complete and total dumbfuck.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Contemplating is thinking about it. Attempted is actually trying to carry it out. No one has ever been prosecuted just for thinking about murder or rape.

          • fiona64

            What is it with these anti-choicers lately? They don’t seem to understand simple English.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Pretty sad for someone who apparently graduated from Law School.

          • DivineWordRadio

            It is pretty sad that a woman cares so little about the life of offspring.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah I’d be ashamed if I didn’t know the difference between contemplated and attempted too…

          • Valde

            It is pretty sad that DWR worships rapists and pedo priests.

          • DivineWordRadio

            It is pretty sad that you are a liar who worships herself.

          • HeilMary1

            Says the WIFE KILLER!

          • fiona64

            It’s pretty sad when an allegedly pro-life man cares so little about the lives of women …

            You know, the ones you want to erase from the picture when it comes to pregnancy? Because, by your own words, the minute a woman becomes pregnant, she *loses her rights.*

            Fuck that noise.

          • fiona64

            Probably Close Cover Whilst Striking University …

          • CJ99

            If that Naseating troll set foot within a mile of any law school outside of ronald mcdonald college then I’m Werner Von Braun.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You gave up understanding life a long time ago. Pity.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I understand you and your ilk all too well. You see, sugarplum, I used to be just as big an anti-choice Bible-thumper as you. I recognize the playbook because I used to *use* it.

            Then, I got out of high school.

            In all seriousness, I got a better grounding in science and also came to understand that the world is not a simplistic, black-and-white place. Situations *matter,* despite your argument to the contrary. Since I cannot know any woman’s situation other than mine, it’s not up to me to make her decisions for her.

            For example, I *personally* think it’s environmentally irresponsible to have more than two children — but I’m not out trying to legislate against people being able to have as many kids as I want. Unlike you, I can disagree with someone’s decision WRT family size and still support their right to decide for themselves.

          • CJ99

            i hope I can be excused for being captain obvious but if they had any pretense of rational thought they wouldn’t be spewing such volatile idiocy.

          • HeilMary1

            Self-defending abortions are the same as tumor removals. If your “tumor” turned out to be your prenatally absorbed twin, you’d have it removed faster than you can say my name. And you also oppose avoiding abortions by using effective contraception, so don’t whine about fetal rights.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are one sick woman.

          • Valde

            You are one rape apologist.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You don’t know what an apologist is. But you are, by your standards, an apologist for murder.

          • colleen

            No because ONCE AGAIN abortion is not murder, a zygote, embryo and fetus is not a ‘person’ and women are not breeding livestock and/or human sacrifices for the atrophied consciences of the religious right. We do not share your twisted beliefs, least of all the notion that you or your priests speak for God.

          • DivineWordRadio

            *Yawn*

          • fiona64

            So, you lied when you said you were leaving. Not that I’m surprised …

          • DivineWordRadio

            If only that silly email hadn’t come up and told me you were posting again.

          • fiona64

            See, here’s what I have learned over time. The people who make their big, dramatic “I’m taking my pail and shovel, and leaving this beach FOREVER” posts? Never leave. If you really wanted to leave, you’d do it.

            But, being an authoritarian, you think you have something to “prove.” You need to “win” at all costs, even if you wind up looking like a complete jackass in the process.

            And rest assured, sirrah, that is exactly how you look at this point.

          • jejune

            I am sure if you try harder you can convince all of the women here that they are nothing more than walking incubators, and that they should be happy about this.

          • CJ99

            This is the least idiotic thing you’ve yet said and even that’s nothing more than verbal flatulance.

          • CJ99

            Nope the sick 1 here is you not mary, though I personally have doubts that you’re a man or a woman. What I do know is through your own words & actions you are hell bent in defiling all life.

          • colleen

            Slavery laws stated that some people were not of value.

            As doers canon law and Catholic doctrine.

          • DivineWordRadio

            False, and a lie. Would you like to provide documentation, or simply continue lying?

          • colleen

            we have been providing documentation right along. It’s unfortunate that you have substituted doctrine for a conscience.

          • CJ99

            What just went over your nonfunctioning head is this: you’ve just admitted that you don’t consider human life to be of value.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Whose god? We don’t live in a theocracy.

          • DivineWordRadio

            We don’t live in a theocracy, and there is one God.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ares, right? Always knew it was Ares :)

          • HeilMary1

            You want a theocracy with public burnings of contraception users, non-clergy gays and altar boys who report pedophile priests.

          • CJ99

            I suspected you’re an utter moron and now you’ve gone and proven it beyond all doubt. What your denying is panthiesm, that being worship of many gods. What you are promoting is theocracy, which is religious dictatorship. Normally in cases like yours I’d suggest a dictionary but you’re a hopeless and very willing lilliterate.

          • colleen

            neither do you and the Catholic church least of all has that authority.

          • DivineWordRadio

            As citizens we all do. The Church protects the Fullness of the Truth. And we as orthodox Catholic citizens promote the morality.

          • Valde

            The church protects pedo priests.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Nope.

          • Valde

            Really? Is that why the RCC moved the priests around for years and years to different parishes so they could continue raping children?

          • fiona64

            Um, sweetie? The fact that the lid got blown off of the whole “moving pedophile priests to other locations” business is why the previous pope *resigned.* Do you not read the news?

          • HeilMary1

            And more scandals are to come! Most priests have secret mistresses and have forced abortions on them. Dr. Sipe knows 50 such women. Then there are the recent global genocides and Nazi-like experiments on orphans.

          • colleen

            Oh too bad. I would have loved to watch someone with your skills defend William Lynch. Simple denial of reality is not generally a winning strategy .

          • DivineWordRadio

            Wrong.

          • colleen

            it absolutely does. It protects and enables them as a matter of institutional policy and we have the evidence. We’ve been gathering the evidence for a very long time. And then there’s the recent conviction in Pa…are you working on the appeal to that?

          • HeilMary1

            And genocidal dictators.

          • colleen

            yes. the hierarchy appears to prefer fascist regimes and military dictatorships. They are certainly no fan of Democracies.

          • colleen

            and as citizens you just cut food stamps. The Church protects the Fullness of Bullshit.

          • CJ99

            yet you continue to lie, deny whats real, and defile morality at every turn? I wonder if you have anything to justify your blatant abuse but clearly the answer is NO.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Authority to be involved in the process. Wrong again lady.

          • colleen

            It’s unfortunate that you define “the process” as stripping all women of their dignity and rights of conscience. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelmi8ng majority of practicing Catholics don’t conform to the bullshit you’re trying to codify. You know why? Because the Church is WRONG and those mile high garbage heaps in the Philippines are a GREAT example of it’s supposed ‘compassion’ as are yesterday’s food stamp cuts.
            It’s unfortunate that the ‘pro-life’ party spends all it’s time trying to make abortion illegal and contraception expensive and difficult to obtain while simultaneously frighting bravely to deny healthcare, jobs and adequate nutrition to those already born.

          • fiona64

            The “process” being stripping women of their right to bodily autonomy?

            No, sweetie. Neither you nor the RCC have the authority to do that.

          • CJ99

            You have no concept at all what god stands for even if you were in the same room with him. If that were to happen it would be you suffering a severe shock when he tells you that you don’t represent him but on the contrary are the complete opposite of who he is.

          • CJ99

            No, you try to create that authority for yourself as a means to usurp the rights of others. That is by the very definition an attempt at self diefication. but who you really follow is more devilish in nature and can’t give you that power over others.

        • goatini

          We’ll know its meaning long before you ever will, if you ever do.

        • goatini

          And if indeed the life of your first wife could have been saved if you’d insisted upon being her proxy and insisted that she be saved, I’m thinking that’s a pretty permanent solution to a temporary problem.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I’ve answered that question already

          • goatini

            Yeah, long, long after I posed it.

        • Valde

          You don’t feel sorry for 8 yo rape victims

          If you did, you would let the child make her own choices

        • expect_resistance

          Right, not having a choice sucks. Having an abortion is a choice. If you don’t want to make that choice don’t have one. Whether you think it’s immoral is irrelevant. Stop with the straw man arguments, there is no relation to abortion and suicide. Many women want to have an abortion and can’t because of lack of access or lack of funding. They didn’t have a choice, did they?

          • DivineWordRadio

            Murder is a choice. If you don’t want to murder, you don’t have to. It is relevant whether it is moral.

          • expect_resistance

            With that said abortion is NOT murder. Again, abortion is a medical procedure that is LEGAL. It is NOT murder. Women have been practicing birth control and abortion for more than 4000 years. (source – website 4000 years for choice) Being that most major religions are ruled by a patriarchy, misogyny has reigned supreme in most major religions.
            The catholic church deems abortion as “murder” to have power and control over women not because it’s true.
            If men get pregnant it would be a fucking sacrament.

          • DivineWordRadio

            It’s legality is irrelevant. China has a one child policy that is legal, with forceable abortion. That too would be said to be legal, and not murder. Women have been practicing birth control and abortion for more than 4000 years–which such things as crocodile dung. And this was something women came up with and wanted?

            The claim about misogyny is a subjective claim. If there is a God (and there is) and the Church is following His teachings, then those teachings are not misogynistic.

            The Church considers abortion as gravely sinful because life has value, and you diminish it by choosing which child will live and which child will die. “because it’s true?” No, because you have false opinions.

          • fiona64

            China has a one child policy that is legal, with forceable abortion.

            It’s just as anti-choice as your position, DWR; it’s just the other side of the same coin. You want abortion made illegal (apparently on the grounds that you think it will cease to exist, which demonstrates a huge amount of naivete). Well, the same government that can force a woman to gestate can force her *not to.*

          • expect_resistance

            Again, with the straw man arguments. Yes women have been practicing birth control and abortion for 4000 years. And yes women came up with some of these methods “all by themselves” (eyeroll sarcasm) Yes, women are smart enough to invent ways to not reproduce. Good lord do you believe your own bullshit? Please don’t answer. I don’t want to hear your week excuse.

            Here’s a little history lesson for you:
            1500s BCE – The Ebers Papyrus, an Egyptian medial text, listed a recipe for a spermacidal plug made from the acacia plant, lint, and honey. This combination produces a lactic acid similar to that found in modern spermicides.
            300s BCE – A colony in northern Africa called Cyrenne became rich from exports of silphium, a plant well-known for its abortive and contraceptive qualities. It was said to be a gift from Apollo. After six-hundred years, overharvesting drove it to extinction.
            200s – Tertullian, the prolific Christian theologian and writer, described two surgical methods used for abortion at that time; “a copper needle or spike and a blade and hook device.”
            1000s – Pennyroyal has a long history as an abortive herb. Two women are pictured using it in an herbal manual from the Middle Ages, one who is grinding it with a mortal and pestle and the other, seemingly pregnant.
            1600s – During slavery in the U.S, many African women were known to take the cottonwood plant as an abortive remedy in order to rebel against their masters and spare their children a life of misery.

            Women have always strived to control their own fertility. And yes the church, especially the Catholic Church is anti-woman. Can women be priests? No. Are women in the Catholic Church equal to men? No. That is misogyny plain and simple. Once again, if men could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.

            I have no more time to post a response to whatever bullshit response you may have to my post. I’m on my way to a meeting.

          • DivineWordRadio

            I never denied there were abortions throughout history. The Hippocratic oath specifically states “I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.”

          • fiona64

            The Hippocratic Oath also states that the physician will never perform surgery and will worship Apollo.

            It’s also *optional.*

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hippocrates also advised a woman about how to induce a miscarriage by vigorously jumping up and down and touching her heels to her buttocks each time.

          • expect_resistance

            Are you a physician?

            In more recent times, women have performed their own abortions using herbal abortifacients. A friend of mine who lacked financial resources to have an abortion in a medical facility decided to do a DIY abortion. Warning, this is not the safest way of abortion and I wouldn’t recommend it. For my friend it worked. She spent three days drinking herbal teas combined with uterine massage. Soon after she had a miscarriage. She didn’t have any medial problems after the herbal abortion. In fact, years later she went on to get pregnant and have a son. This is why I stress if abortion is legal or not it will continue. You can’t stop abortions just by making it illegal. Like I said before, women will strive to gain control of their reproductive destiny. Besides, you don’t want abortion to be illegal because you get off on shaming women. You get off on the superiority you feel by slut-shaming, by shaming women for their right to bodily autonomy.

          • HeilMary1

            Just 2 coffees, teas or colas can trigger miscarriages. I know many women, including my mom, who miscarried because of their beverages. A friend of my mom had 11 miscarriages, and we later learned she was an alcoholic. And yet Gene Church got livid when I pointed out that Jesus served abortifacient miracle wine to the Cana bride.

          • HeilMary1

            Women discovered many plants flush out zygotes, including many in your kitchen. Jesus H. Christ himself performed an RU-486 abortion when he served abortifacient miracle wine to the Cana bride. ;D

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are simply a disgusting liar. You are sick, and mean and malicious. May God have mercy on your soul.

          • Valde

            She’s not the one who enables pedo priests.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Are you?

          • Valde

            No, you are cupcake:)

          • CJ99

            thats unfair to cupcakes. Before anyone takes offense I’m saying that cupcakes have more redeeming values than this UNdevineWorldReject.

          • osiote

            Agreed.

            He’s a piece of shit.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Is that what you do?

          • CJ99

            In reality China’s 1 child policy is not gonna last forever since that countries population is now rapidly aging and at some point there will come a tipping point where the working age population is unable to support the retired.

          • HeilMary1

            So you oppose self-defense? Because ALL abortions are self-defense against bodily harm by fetuses.

        • colleen

          I hope someday you understand, truly understand the meaning of compassion

          Yes I share this hope that the Catholic hierarchy someday understands the meaning of compassion. The stench of false piety is fairly sickening. One of your Priests was fond of telling the 7 year olds that this was what the love of God felt like just before initial insertion.

          • DivineWordRadio

            You are sick.

          • Valde

            You are the one who supports pedo priests.

          • DivineWordRadio

            Name one that I support, you liar.

          • colleen

            I’m not defending him. You are.

        • CJ99

          Anyone who knows what compassion is never learned it from you. to you its just an ascii string you use to beat people over the head.

        • cvxxx

          Sex is moral. Cannot be more plain.

    • CJ99

      I hope god has mercy on you when you have to face him knowing how you treat others.

  • Valde

    DWR came here knowing that he would get a lot of pushback. And he purposely pushed buttons.

    Because he felt like a righteous *martyr* when doing so.

    That was the entire point of this exercise.

    Hence why his arguments lacked any and all substance. It was a grand performance to show how godly he is.

  • Lisa Kazmier

    Forcing women to give birth is negating their free will. How is that not akin to slavery??? Apparently, women are less than human to these schmucks.

    • DivineWordRadio

      Taking the life of another, claiming they have no right to life is akin to slavery. Giving birth is the natural process that stems from sexual contact.

      • fiona64

        Giving birth is the natural process that stems from sexual contact.

        Not necessarily.

      • jejune

        Explain gay sex please.

      • CJ99

        Rape is not devine, forcing people into abstinance for your own warped needs isn’t devine. Forcing women into pregnancies isn’t Devine.

        You are not the least bit devine.

  • Joseph O Polanco

    What I don’t get is, why is it ok to deprive a woman of control over her body just before she is ready to give birth?

    • Ella Warnock

      12 weeks is not “right before she is ready to give birth.”

      • Valde

        OH FFS

        LET’S HAVE A PARTYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

        • Ella Warnock

          WHOOOOO – I’m right there with ya!

        • Jennifer Starr

          I do believe we have kept Joey up all night.

      • fiona64

        Joseph:

        You do know that normal gestation is 40 weeks, right?

        At 12 weeks’ gestation, a woman is not “ready to give birth.”

        Were you homeschooled or something?

        • Jennifer Starr

          I don’t think he knows an awful lot. He gets very pissy and defensive when he’s corrected and tries to cover up his obvious lack of education by using pretentious Latin phrases and words like ‘jejune’. He also constantly calls things ‘strawmen’ , when they aren’t strawmen at all.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Another funny thing is that he’s been acting like he’s married, but his Facebook lists him as single. My guess is that the former Mrs. Polanco (if there was one) couldn’t stand his attitude either and up and left him.

          • HeilMary1

            Such a common pattern for anti-choice men to fudge on their marital status and dismiss their domestic disasters.

          • colleen

            One of the consequences of never forcing RR men to be responsible for ANYTHING is that women and women alone are responsible for divorce. Mark Sandford? Why he hiked the Appalachian trail because his wife was uppity and didn’t meet his needs. Just like Newt Gingrich first two wives. Poor poor men.And consider the agony of ‘pro-life’ Randall Terry, He didn’t MEAN to hit on every available women and pre-pubescent girl in his congregation. His wife kept getting pregnant after he denied her access to effective contraception and he had his male needs. And I’m sure Randall intended to pay child support after he divorced her and the kids and just forgot to write the checks.

          • fiona64

            I would not be at all surprised if there is a *former* Mrs. Polanco. Who would want to live with this kind of misogyny on a day-in, day-out basis?

        • Guest

          You’re the one who said 12 weeks is right before birth. Idiot. And a liar to boot.

          • fiona64

            Um, no. I have never said 12 weeks is “Right before birth.” That was our delightful Mr. JOP. I am a whole lot smarter than that.

  • Joseph O Polanco

    Even more curious, if an abortion in the late term is murder why isn’t abortion in the early term also murder?

  • Guest

    That’s nice.

  • cvxxx

    George Orwell already wrote this one.

  • Charbel El-chaar

    Anti choices is anti killing or anti legalized murder and anti hurting women by abortion
    Are you for Hurting women and killing pre-born children?