Anti-Choicers Can’t Get Around It: Their Arguments Have No Standing


As part of the struggle to prevent women from using the health-care benefits they earn, six state attorneys general—who clearly need something better to do with their time—launched a suit to give employers the right to deny employees coverage of birth control as part of their health policies. Now, those attorneys general are giving up the lawsuit, for now at least, in no small part because a federal judge earlier ruled they have no standing to sue. What other people do with their own insurance coverage does not, it turns out, cause any actual damage to strangers, making it really hard for these conservative attorneys to argue that they have standing. Ian Millhiser at ThinkProgress explains:

“Standing” is the requirement that a plaintiff show that they have actually been injured by a law before they are allowed to sue to challenge it in federal court. No one, not even a state attorney general acting on behalf of his or her state, is allowed to bring a case to federal court simply because they do not like the law, or because they are able to offer some speculative reason why the law might somehow injure them at some point in the future.

This problem that these attorneys general were facing is a fundamental problem for the anti-choice movement generally: All their beliefs go back to the conviction that what other people, even perfect strangers, are doing in bed somehow affects them and so needs to be stopped by any means necessary. (Sadly, as family planning clinics and abortion clinics can tell you, this sometimes means that criminal and even violent behavior is often a part of the arsenal that anti-choicers use in attacking other people for having sex without their permission.) The problem with this belief is self-evident. What other people are doing with their bodies does not actually affect anti-choicers, and so their standing—not just legally, but morally—is always hard to impossible to establish. Thus, the never-ending parade of bad faith arguments and outright lies that come from anti-choicers.

With their support of abortion bans, there’s at least a mild plausibility to their claim to be concerned over fetal life, though of course it crumbles the second you start looking more deeply at the evidence, particularly when it comes to the fact that anti-choicers consistently resist every realistic policy known to reduce the abortion rate because those policies don’t actually satisfy their real desire to punish women for having sex. Beyond that, though, they lose the ability to come up with arguments that don’t nakedly expose their belief that they are the proper owners of your body.

The contraception mandate battle is a perfect example of this. Unable to come right out and say that they don’t want it to be too easy for women to have non-procreative sex, anti-choicers have instead latched onto this “religious freedom for employers” argument. Unfortunately, the argument doesn’t work without the assumption that your employer has some ownership over his employee’s private life, including her own religious beliefs. The argument rests on the assumption that because your employer has a right to control your compensation after he’s released it to you, that even though the insurance plan actually belongs to you and not your employer—because you earned it, alongside your paycheck—he has a right to dictate how you use it. It really is no different than trying to control how you spend your paycheck, but anti-choicers hope the public, confused by the heavily bureaucratic insurance system, won’t see that. But if you spend even a few moments thinking about it, it becomes clear that the objection to the contraception mandate is rooted in the belief that your employer has a right to try to impose his religious views on you in the bedroom.

Another favored tactic is to focus excessively on young women under the age of 18, exaggerating how much control parents have over the bodies of teenage girls and appointing themselves substitute parents in order to gain control. But inevitably, these kinds of arguments always end up giving them the control over adult women they quietly believe they are entitled to. Laws requiring Plan B to be put behind the pharmacy counter were justified as ways to keep teenagers from defying their parents’ supposed right to force them to ovulate, but the result was that adult women also had incredibly restricted access.

You see that attempt to use “young girls” as a battering ram to attack adult women (as well as teenage girls) in the conservative freakout over Miley Cyrus’ randy performance at the Video Music Awards. While there are legitimate criticisms about Cyrus as a cultural appropriater, the right-wing response was, unsurprisingly, all about trying to establish their right to control what grown women do with their bodies, even though it does not affect them. Invoking their supposed “right” to control the bodies of the under-18 set was a popular tactic. Rush Limbaugh blamed feminism, saying, “they’re the ones who told us, ‘Little girls are gonna have sex. You can’t stop it.’” Reminder: Cyrus is 20, not a “little girl” by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, then there’s always the threat that someone—someone else, no doubt—will punish you with rape and violence if you don’t accede to the right wing authority to control your body. Glenn Reynolds wrote this little threat on his blog in response to Cyrus rejecting his authority to tell her when and how her ass is to be shook: “Chivalry was a system, in which obligations fell on women as well as men. If you wish for men to behave as they did in past times, you may have to live with women behaving as they did in past times, too. In the age of Miley Cyrus and Sandra Fluke, that doesn’t seem especially likely.” The implication being, of course, that men were somehow better behaved toward women back when sexual harassment was just considered “life,” when marital rape was legal, when a man could pat you on the head and tell you to get married instead when you applied for a job, and when domestic violence was so normalized that it was a regular joke on television.

It always goes back to this tension: At the end of the day, conservatives really don’t have a good argument for why what you do with your body supposedly hurts them. Our political system, our health-care system, and now even the basic right of an employee to clock out and not have to deal with employers nosing around their bedrooms are all being threatened because conservatives refuse to learn the basic rule of minding their own business.

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  • finishstrongdoc

    What other people do in bed certainly does have the potential to be everyone else’s business. If it is suspected that girl child is being raped, it should be reported to legal authorities for investigation. We should all try to be as tolerant of others as we can be, but some things in a civilized society simply cannot be tolerated.

    And saying what happens to girl children shouldn’t effect what women do, think or say is really to say that women shouldn’t concern themselves about what happens to girl children behind closed doors. Rather condescending, and almost a carbon copy of that male chauvinist you caricatured as the “Victorian Man,” who patted the heads of women in a patronizing way.

    Women or men of mature thinking should not tolerate sexual abuse of any kind, which takes on many abusive forms, and has a host of negative moral and medical consequences. It is a very patronizing thing to say the lowest form of sexual activity must be ignored and even enabled. The HHS Mandate forces pharmacists to sell the Morning After Pill over the counter to teen girls. This is a child molester’s best friend, and will lead to more sexual, mental and physical abuse of teen and pre-teen girls.

    As for the “substitute parents” label, I’d say that anyone who is a court-ordered reporter has a mandate to be that substitute parent. We have seen that many times, there is a breakdown in responsibility to report, such as in the Gosnell case, where the Charnel House of Horrors he ran, butchering born alive infants, had many external indicators that something dreadfully wrong was happening there, but court mandated reporters did nothing for over 17 years.

    It is every citizen’s responsibility to “When you see something, say something.” It may just be that things have gone too far and authorities need to be shown that we have a culture that cares for the rights of its fellow man, especially the weakest and most vulnerable of our citizens. When cultures get so degraded that born alive infants are being murdered and nothing is done about it, it is obvious that the time has come for all citizens to be aware that our government may not always carry out its legal mandates. In fact, it is becoming a dangerous trend in government now to mandate for that which it once mandated against.

    Abuse can come in many forms. Subtle abuse of the truth in journalism, by clever argument and innuendo, false labeling and stereotyping is an abuse of the truth. We all make mistakes, and no one likes to have their mask pulled off and be exposed as a fraud. Some people in journalism may not ever be exposed as deceptive frauds for they will always have the backing of many in high places to prosecute those who try to bring to light that which was hidden in darkness. But silence always favors the abuser. That’s why all citizens of mature mind must always try to speak truth to power.

    • Valde

      The article is about consensual sex.

    • Valde

      When cultures get so degraded that born alive infants are being murdered
      and nothing is done about it, it is obvious that the time has come for
      all citizens to be aware that our government may not always carry out
      its legal mandates.

      And this is why gosnell is in jail.

      • bj_survivor

        Yep, because clearly no one cares if anyone brutally murders born alive infants. Could this stupid post be more full of strawmen?

        I especially like the forced-birther assertion that not having emergency pregnancy prevention will somehow deter sexual predators from their prey. This would explain why we never see pregnant children (/sarcasm). That has to be one of the more asinine assertions, closely following the rape pregnancy as proof of the assault.

        This shit would be laughable, except that so many people in real power buy into it.

        • Valde

          Remember, rape can only be proven if the victim is pregnant!

          • bj_survivor

            And, also, the contraceptive mentality leads to abortion or contraception allows men to disrespect women (because men respected women so much in the old days that they’d never have sex with them if they didn’t want to get pregnant/never abandoned their pregnant girlfriends/wives or their entire families).

            But you have to ignore that, ineffective as it is, NFP/the rhythm method are also contraceptives (duh!). And that Catholic women get abortions at a rate that exceeds their incidence in the U.S. population. That women who don’t use birth control or use it inconsistently get the vast majority of abortions. All this can be easily found at Guttmacher dot org.

          • HeilMary1

            And priests’ mistresses and rape victims probably get the most abortions!

          • AZDem9933

            Nuh uh! It wasn’t a “legitimate rape” if she got pregnant.

          • Valde

            too true

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Like adultery in Hosea. Whackjob Womb Nazis cannot use the bible to condemn abortion. Mosaic law provides for a trial by ordeal that is an abortion because a husband is jealous. Proof being the expelled dead fetus.

        • AZDem9933

          I totally believe that people who think women and girls should be punished for sex with childbirth are sincerely worried about rape victims.

        • anglel

          I was raped when I was younger…so….yea…Ive had friends in the same boat some worse when i was a teen. Im not against contraceptions but yea it would be nice if “get your nose out of my bedroom” didnt end in children, born and unborn, being hurt by it…..I wish gosnell was the only one. I live in a state that aborts up to the last trimester. full term babies, capable of life outside of the womb. One of the very few states where its lega. It is also well known for its human trafficing…..

          • Jennifer Starr

            You realize that third-trimester abortions are very rare,either to save the life or health of the mother or wanted pregnancies gone very wrong.

      • finishstrongdoc

        The reason Gosnell is in jail was because an inspection of his establishment by authorities looking for evidence of his possible illegal sale of pain-killers. What they saw horrified them to such an extent that they had to report what they saw to the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office, who then sent their own team to investigate. Their investigation revealed a grisly House of Horrors in which it was discovered that the women Gosnell had ripped open needed pain-killers, so he gratefully and illegally sold to them under the table at exorbitant prices.

        Gosnell had a pain-killer price list for women pre-op, which they could choose from a list of expected level of pain during his abortion procedure. That they most often would lowball the pain meds before the procedure meant they would most often find themselves in severe pain on the operating table, which meant more money for Gosnell. He would halt the procedure, make the women purchase more pain-killers on the table, and then recommence the procedure. This is indicative of the unprofessional, dangerous, heartless and cruel nature of the business of abortion.

        Gosnell is not an “outlier” as Planned Parenthood advertised through the Old Media. Gosnell’s practices are mainstream.

        Thanks for asking about that;

        • squwelly

          “Gosnell is not an ‘outlier’ as Planned Parenthood advertised through the Old Media. Gosnell’s practices are mainstream.”

          Interesting claim. Prove it. But make sure your proof comes from credible sources such as peer-reviewed scholarly journal articles and not uncredible ones like extremist anti-abortion websites.

        • Dez

          Gosnell is not an “outlier” as Planned Parenthood advertised through the Old Media. Gosnell’s practices are mainstream.

          You are flat out wrong. This site has many articles about Gosnell and the reporting done on him by pro-choice groups that were ignored by the proper authorities.

        • HeilMary1

          You want to go back to the bad old days of women dying by their 40s from 10-30 childbirths and male abuse.

        • bj_survivor

          Why do forced-birthers lie so much? I really want to know. Especially when their lies are so transparent.

          • fiona64

            Because they think that everyone is just as low-information and ignorant as they are.

          • anglel

            pro-lifers are not forcing anyone to have sex, we are demanding that women be responsible enough with their reproductive organs as to not cause an untimely death

          • 65snake

            What you are demanding is that women be “punished” for having non-procreational sex via unwanted pregnancies, by doing everything in your power to ensure that they do not have access to contraception.
            Safe sex IS being responsible.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are not pro life. You are pro birth. Homo sapiens utilizes three strategies to control reproduction (birth): contraception, abortion and infanticide. All three have been and are practiced around the world in every culture. Those who restrict contraception and abortion make infanticide inevitable. You do not occupy the moral high ground.

          • choiceone

            Well, then, to prove that women are not causing untimely death is going to be a problem.

            Every woman who is sexually active and uses BC probably does conceive a number of times, but about 75% of the zygotes/morulae/blastocysts/early embryos either fail to implant or are miscarried, and the women don’t know it, so these early miscarriages are just flushed down the toilet. There is probably no woman who has been sexually active for a couple of years that has not in some way been responsible for these untimely deaths by getting pregnant and then reject the implantation.

            The only way to avoid that is to avoid heterosexual sex altogether. So I don’t understand why pro-lifers are not demanding that men be responsible enough with their reproductive organs as not to cause those untimely deaths in the first place by not having sex with women.

        • AZDem9933

          “Gosnell’s practices are mainstream.” No, but they will be more commonplace when abortion is banned everywhere.

        • Pangur Ban

          horseshit. if his practice had been typical, the web – even msm – would have sounded the alarm years ago. he’s a deviant monster.

          • anglel

            oh yea becuse you know, people go out of their way to tell about the 7 month old viable fetus they killed the other day….

          • fiona64

            What utter nonsense you spew.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Seriously, just piss off.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Just another Forced Birther pervert enjoying its fantasy of murdering babies. And trying to make others responsible for its fantasies. It expects to be seen as caring, sane and responsible. LOL.

          • fiona64

            Is anyone really this big an imbecile?

            At seven months’ gestation, you are talking about a wanted pregnancy gone very, very wrong if there is an abortion. No one terminates a fetus at 7 months’ gestation in any other circumstance. So, yeah, I would bet good money that the bereaved are talking about it a lot … because they have seen the hopes and dreams they projected onto that fetus dashed.

            You’re completely heartless to say such an asinine thing.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Gosnell’s practices are mainstream? Gosnell did not perform late term abortions. He did not have the surgical training to do so. He induced labor and then killed the infant born alive. Please support your contention this is a mainstream form of “abortion” with medical proof. Unbiased sites like ACOG only.

    • AZDem9933

      Your concern is duly noted.

    • Arekushieru

      Um, yeah, governments now mandate for that which it once mandated against, because women and minorities fought to be recognized as PERSONS with FULL RIGHTS. However, what you consider a reverse mandate, is actually something your ilk brought on yourselves and others around you, and is actually the SAME mandate that’s been in place for hundreds, IF NOT thousands, of years. Specifically, that women cannot be ‘legitimately’ raped, that men are always the target of false rape accusations, that men are always innocent until proven guilty, that women are always guilty until proven innocent. This is why the people you defend oppose abortion, after all. It has been proven time and again. Contraception reduces the number of abortions, after all, but the most vocal majority of the Pro-Life movement also oppose contraception on the same grounds YOU gave us (hmmm…). Which has nothing to do with abortion, but, even if it did, highlights the radically different kinds of behaviour you expect between men and women (DOUBLE hmmm…). Iow, women (especially teen girls) are ‘sluts’, and asking for it, if they obtain MAP, otc. After all (without going into the whole RIDICULOUSNESS of this ASSumption), EVEN you are blatantly assigning blame for rape on contraception and, in turn, on those who take it. But men never seem to be at fault for raping their victims (a sentiment you obviously share, as well).

      Now lets get into the whole RIDICULOUSNESS of this assumption. Rape has been around for THOUSANDS of years, as well. LONG before contraception was considered socially and morally acceptable. Now, rape has become illegal. Reporting of it has gone UP, but it still remains at an unacceptable rate because of attitudes that I outlined above and that YOU obviously share, not us. And it’s the same reason that rates of rape REMAIN the same and are not declining. Now, are you going to do like your anti-choice friends claim everyone ELSE is avoiding, and take responsibility for your actions, or just sit on your hands and be another hypocrite?

      • anglel

        women can be raped and with a police report there should be no obligation to carry past the first week and a free anti-rape kit should be given which includes a morning after pill once a specimen has been collected from the rape victim.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Tell you what. Instead of you setting all these arbitrary rules for how and when you think a rape victim deserves or doesn’t deserve an abortion, why don’t we leave it up to the woman who was actually raped and who is actually pregnant while you mind your own business and stay out of it? All right?

        • jejune

          Many women are

          1) traumatized

          2) don’t always report the rape

          3) don’t know they are pregnant due to irregular period or on birth control

          Until you’ve been in that position I suggest you SHUT THE FUCK UP you self-righteous moralizing little TWIT

        • fiona64

          Do you know why rape is such an under-reported crime? Because, in the majority of cases, women know that *they* will be the ones put on trial. For crying out loud, there was a recent case where the sexual assault was VIDEOTAPED and the assailants were found “not guilty” (which is not the same as innocent, by any stretch of the imagination).

          In the majority of cases, the assault is committed by someone the victim *knows.* Are you aware of that? Date-rape really is a thing. Consenting to go out to coffee is no more consenting to sex than consenting to sex is consenting to pregnancy.

          A “rape kit” is a police evidence kit, not a medicine cabinet. And, unless it’s Palin-era Alaska, rape victims do not have to pay to have evidence taken. You’re talking out your backside.

        • Arekushieru

          A woman is not a crime lab. Kthx, that was just DISGUSTING.

        • choiceone

          1) Some women and girls are so traumatized by rape that they are incapable of reporting it to the police or anyone. In fact, the more inexperienced they are, the more likely they are to be so traumatized.

          2) A Morning After Pill needs to be taken immediately to be effective. It is supposed to be taken within 72 hours. It is most effective if taken immediately, then within 24 hours, then 48 hours, etc. It is drastically less effective after 72 hours and is not 100% effective even if taken just hours after the rape or intercourse.

          3) A police “rape kit” has nothing to do with the Morning After Pill. It is a medical examination of a rape victim done with standard medical equipment to gather evidence of rape.

        • Shan

          Oh, here we go. Another one who’s “pro-life” but only if the woman had consensual sex.

  • bj_survivor

    The only thing—the only thing—that can signal a person’s “sexual
    availability” is for that person to directly communicate to the
    individual person they would like to have sex with that the option is on
    the table. No one—no one—can ever, under any circumstances, be
    considered sexually available in some generalized way. You can only be
    “available” to the person you wish to have sex with, and that
    “availability” can be retracted at any point in time. Which is to say,
    there is no such thing as “sexual availability”. There is consent, sure,
    but without it, a person is not available, full stop. Any other claims
    otherwise are just people trying to sell you a line of bullshit.

    QFT. Sadly, for far too many people, women included, consent and bodily autonomy do not apply to female-bodied persons. Only men have that right. But, somehow, this is totes compatible with feminism according to forced-gestation “feminists.”

    • anglel

      I have the right to my bodily autonomy. I choose whether or not I will have sex with my own husband.

      • Jennifer Starr

        Then allow other women to make that same choice, please.

        • anglel

          I never said a woman shouldnt have a choice to have sex if she wants. If she does have sex she needs to accept responsibility that she may be bringing new life into the world…..kinda obvious.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And ending a pregnancy if she wishes is one method of accepting responsibility. It may not be one that you approve of, but it is her decision to make.

          • anglel

            stopping a beating heart is not accepting responsibility, its ditching it. Its like saying…I dont like the world so Im killing myself..No one has ever considered suicide a responsible decision. Stopping a beating heart that you took part in creating isnt responsible either.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Again, your opinion. Why not leave the decision over what to do with a pregnancy up to the woman who is actually pregnant?

          • anglel

            its not my opinion. its law. Suicide is against the law! Stopping any beating heart should be as well…

          • anglel

            most women know how babies are made…if you know that driving drunk causes accidents, then you drive drunk, you chose to have an accident…its really simple

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Driving a car is not consenting to have an accident. Having sex is not consenting to giving birth.

          • fiona64

            Consenting to drive is no more consenting to an accident than having sex is consenting to pregnancy.

            But you know that …

          • anglel

            You missed it. driving DRUNK, is concent to loosing your car, going to jail, and at wort getting into a horrible accident where people are killed. The only reason I use this analogy is because you would think that if something might result in death that the participants should be held to a certain level of responsibility concerning it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, suicide is not against the law. At least not in the United States. It is against the law to advise someone to commit suicide, and to help someone else to commit suicide, but to commit or attempt suicide yourself? Not illegal.

          • anglel

            not true, that why if you attempt suicide you get committed until your no longer a danger to yourself (how do I know…take a guess)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Being committed to a mental health facility is not the same as being charged with a crime. The last laws making suicide a criminal offense were taken off the books in the early ’90s.

          • anglel

            Yes it is. If you dont go voluntarily the courts can charge you with being a danger to yourself or others and commit you by force under court order. The new law is “being a danger to self or others”. Legally the courts have a right to involuntarily commit you until they either dont want to pay for it anymore or you feel better, whichever comes first. You can also be court orderd to take medications that may or may not be helping (depending on if the doctor diagnosed you correctly) and you could end up on a cocktail of things that make you drool on yourself going in and our of assisted living homes and hospitals. Ive been there. I know the system. I was diagnosed as bipolar, and given medication that made things much worse. Then they gave ;me a new pill, and a pilal for that pill, and a pill for that pill. When then my blood levels were not where they wanted, or I didnt show up to be tested, a warrant was put out for my arrest. I was caught and they committed me.

            About five years ago after fleeing that hell of a life after discovering Ihad become pregnant, I moved states to a waaaaay smaller town. Got in school, still had the depression and “stuff” so I went to see a counselor, and insisted I did not want medications. Because they werent as busy I was allowed to see one almost right away. A year after that I started seeing a psychologist. After several months of me being a patient they gave me a more suiting and accurate diagnosis of Major depressive disorder, PTSD, and ADHD.

            My doctors arnt trying to shove pills down my throat, and Im getting the help I need to recover from allot of crap that I have been through…..

            They dont take you to jail for attempting suicide, and the hospital cannot keep you indefinitly….that is the only thing that has changed. Other than that you can be court orderd to a hospital if you attempt suicide, or even write a suicide note when you have a history of depression.

          • Jennifer Starr

            That’s still not a criminal charge. Sorry.

          • anglel

            It is court enforced where they physically detain you against your will for doing something that involves complete bodily autonomy….your missing the point. So I guess we should detain women against their will when they want to have an abortion to mantain consistancy with the law, as it realates to causing death and bodily autonomy???? I apologize for spelling half of this I did on a tiny G2.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You may think it’s reasonable to want to hold pregnant women hostage for wanting to get an abortion, I do not. Involuntarily being committed for committing suicide is a completely different thing. Not to be rude, but your logic is crap. Sorry.

          • anglel

            Your putting words in my mouth. I only said committing suicide gets held involentarily for a period of time until you no longer want to kill yourself. Your argument was autonomy, I said, that its an irrelevant arguement because when it comes to harming yourself you dont have it.

            You never asked me what I recommend for women who want an abortion in a world where it wasnt legal. ask me and Ill answer.

            Your right, killing yourself is allot more autonomous than killing a 12 week old baby inside you. Yet you will be involintarily committed for trying to kill yourself, and applauded for killing your baby.

            You dont follow my reasoning because I see an unborn child as human and I support protecting her right to have a chance at life. Maybe Im naive to think that all life deserves to be held up to a certain standard. I dont kill bugs inside my house, I put them outside. If a mouse runs across the road, I will try not to hit it, and I cry when I do. I talk to my flowers because it makes them bloom longer. I use vinegar to keep ants away, because while honestly I cant stand the things, they have just as much of a right to live out their lives as you or eye. I dont support the death penalty.

            I value LIFE all life, and I know each one has a purpose. Even yours, even mine. So I get greatly and extreamly bothered when I hear “we want freedom to kill……..” anything that has to do with human DNA that is a living organism.

            You want the short version? A twelve week old unborn baby is a human that is alive! Killing is wrong!

          • choiceone

            If you actually commit suicide and succeed, it is not a crime and no one can do anything to you because your body is a corpse. All they can do is bury you or, if you left a legal living will specifying cremation, cremate you. If you attempt to commit suicide and fail, nobody is going to hold you involuntarily if you did so in private and, when you failed, you took care of yourself. Only if you inflict your failure on other people is there a problem. If you slit your wrists, for example, and bleed in a place shared with someone else, that person will feel obligated to take you to the emergency room. This is different from keeping your problems private.

          • fiona64

            Legally the courts have a right to involuntarily commit you until they
            either dont want to pay for it anymore or you feel better, whichever
            comes first.

            Nope. 72 hours is the maximum amount of time that anyone can be held under a 5150 order.

            For an involuntary civil commitment, it is not up to the courts; there must be involvement from the medical community — and that’s still not the same as having committed a crime and going to jail. http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/studies/state-standards-involuntary-treatment.html

            I will say this: the vast majority of patients are not helped by anti-depressant meds (only about 13 percent are). http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html For those whom the meds help. they are a godsend; for the rest of us (note use of word) they are poison. I spent decades misdiagnosed with depression when what I really have is hypothyroidism (which often presents as depression). This is way off-topic in any event.

          • Ella Warnock

            Same story here, Fiona. Amazing how much better a healthy thyroid will make you feel.

          • fiona64

            I’m not quite in perfect balance yet, but the new dosage of levothyroxine has resulted in me edging into the high end of normal for the first time since my diagnosis — which came about because I went to a new doctor for something unrelated, and who (after listening to my description of other symptoms) decided to add a TSH test to the list of blood tests I was due for anyway.

          • Ella Warnock

            Mine isn’t quite there yet, either, but I’m feeling more like the old me again. I’m so glad you found the answer and are feeling better.

          • anglel

            I was made to stay seven days over a note I wrote. I didnt start talking until the third day. This was actually over a pregnancy I had just found out about that I was no where near in a position to deal with (obviously). Though they didnt know it at the hospital at the time. They only hold you 72 hours if you cooperate. If you do not, you can be held in contempt of court and they make you stay longer. I have been in psych ward with people involuntarily placed there for weeks at a time by court order.

            I got this for the state I was in from the same site you posted about ( I love research) Which was Arizona. These are legal statues that are enforced by the same court you go to if you get a ticket for jaywalking. There is nothing legally binding about the length of the involuntary committal for Arizona. SAMHCC pays the bill, and during the initial 72 hour period after your committal you are assessed as to the severity of your condition. If after that time they still deem you a threat, they keep you until you can be placed under voluntary status, which depends largely on how you respond to treatment.

            RIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-540 (A). “If the court finds by clear and convincing evidence that the proposed patient, as a result of mental disorder, is a danger to self, is a danger to others, is persistently or acutely disabled or is gravely disabled and in need of treatment, and is either unwilling or unable to accept voluntary treatment . . . .”

            ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(5). “Danger to others” means that the judgment of a person who has a mental disorder is so impaired that he is unable to understand his need for treatment and as a result of his mental disorder his continued behavior can reasonably be expected, on the basis of competent medical opinion, to result in serious physical harm.

            ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(6). “Danger to self” means:

            (a) Behavior which, as a result of a mental disorder, constitutes a danger of inflicting serious physical harm upon oneself, including attempted suicide or the serious threat thereof, if the threat is such that, when considered in the light of its context and in light of the individual’s previous acts, it is substantially supportive of an expectation that the threat will be carried out.

            (b) Behavior which, as a result of a mental disorder, will, without hospitalization, result in serious physical harm or serious illness to the person, except that this definition shall not include behavior which establishes only the condition of gravely disabled.

            ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(16). “Gravely disabled” means a condition evidenced by behavior in which a person, as a result of a mental disorder, is likely to come to serious physical harm or serious illness because he is unable to provide for his basic physical needs.

            ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(33). “Persistently or acutely disabled” means a severe mental disorder that meets all the following criteria:

            (a) If not treated has a substantial probability of causing the person to suffer or continue to suffer severe and abnormal mental, emotional or physical harm that significantly impairs judgment, reason, behavior or capacity to recognize reality.

            (b) Substantially impairs the person’s capacity to make an informed decision regarding treatment and this impairment causes the person to be incapable of understanding and expressing an understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of accepting treatment and understanding and expressing an understanding of the alternatives to the particular treatment offered after the advantages, disadvantages and alternatives are explained to that person.

            (c) Has a reasonable prospect of being treatable by outpatient, inpatient or combined inpatient and outpatient treatment.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Still not a criminal offense, though.

          • fiona64

            A 72-hour hold is not the same as being in jail.

          • anglel

            You havnt been committed longer that 72hours than obviously

          • fiona64

            Nope, I haven’t. And it’s still not the same as being in jail. No criminal record, etc.

          • choiceone

            You misunderstand. If you attempt suicide and fail, you can become a social problem, but if you attempt suicide and succeed, you do not become a social problem, because everyone ultimately dies and leaves their corpse for someone else to deal with. The fact that you become a social problem because you fail to succeed at suicide is the reason you go to a mental facility. Everybody who becomes a social problem that the state considers serious enough can end up with this problem.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Assisted suicide is legal in two states in the USA.

            When most abortions are performed there is no functional heart. What is “beating” is a tube that is the precursor to a fully formed heart. Cardiac tissue will beat in a petri dish. BFD.

            I despise women like you who are not for women. You need bitchslapped bigtime.

          • anglel

            I pray for anyone who dehumanizes someone to make it more ethical to kill them. Ive been pregnant and given birth five times. Every time You get your sonogram at 12 weeks because that is when they can tell the gender of the baby. If most abortions are done before that then why the pissed off people wanting to kill babies capable of living outside the womb with assistance, and calling it a womans right to choose. Watch some videos of people who survived botched abortions…then tell me those were just tissues….Better yet, not that you would get caught being friends with a pregnant girl, check out some sonogram pics from your fam and friends. A fetus Is not a bunch of tubes and tissues that magically assemble themselves into a baby once they hit the air. Get real.

            I am for women, i am for children….not to sure about men but whatever……I stay in balance so that I dont become as cruel as those who oppress me. I will not suffer the end of a life for the convenience of another. Man, woman. child, black, white, unborn, disabled, old, whatever.

            I know that women have the power and ability to not have children without killing.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Late term abortions are generally done either to preserve the life or health of the mother or for wanted pregnancies gone horribly wrong. Many conditions incompatible with life cannot be detected until 20 + weeks. Nothing about anyone being ‘pissed off’. That’s just downright insulting.

          • anglel

            Actually the percentage of women who get abortions for medical reasons is really low, both early and late term. Just because a person has a vagina does not mean they are not prone to mistakes and bad decisions, even when it pertains to the vagina and the responsibility thereof. Just like people with penises are not somehow mystycally exempt from making bad decisions with their sex organs.

            Though your argument has been used as an excuse to legalize abortions past 20 weeks, it would be just as easy to legalize “medically necessary pregnancy terminations”, that would keep people with vaginas from abusing the option.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You can’t use the fact that some women make bad decisions to outlaw women being able to make their own decisions about their pregnancies. If you’re going to follow that line of reasoning you might as well say that no one should ever be able to make their own decisions, about anything.

          • Arekushieru

            “Just like people with penises are not somehow mystycally exempt from making bad decisions with their sex organs.”

            Except that’s EXACTLY how people like you treat men.

          • fiona64

            No woman is required to divulge the reason she seeks a termination … so you have no way whatsoever of knowing that.

          • choiceone

            Abortions are already legal past 20 weeks – the issue is that some people want to change the existing law. The Supreme Court decision in Planned Parenthood v Casey modified that in Roe v Wade because legal fetal viability, the point at which medicine considers a fetus has a 50/50 chance of survival outside and detached from the woman’s body if simply removed from the woman’s body, moved from 28 weeks to 24. It has not moved further back in all decades since because that survival depends on being capable of breathing air, which depends on sufficient lung development. There are some fetuses that have survived earlier than the 50/50 chance mark, of course, but the earliest is 21 weeks and 5 or 6 days, and there is a possibility that the calculation of point in pregnancy was wrong.

            Meanwhile, even a fetus that survives at 24 weeks is going to have some serious problems in life, because it is not actually a finished product – it’s not completed enough to be a complete, healthy human being when it comes out.

            Almost the only abortions that occur beyond 20 weeks are because of a threat to the woman’s life or major health functions, as in the case of abortions beyond 24 weeks, or because the woman is pregnant with a serious fetal anomaly or a fetus with very serious deformities or disabilities, or because the woman has been prevented from getting an earlier abortion in, e.g., a case of rape captivity or obstacles put up by a bunch of anti-abortion activists or economic obstacles.

            The anti-choice people want to prevent women from aborting pregnancies in cases like this where the diagnosis of a serious fetal disability cannot be done until about the 20th week.

            If the fetus hasn’t attained viability, the state has no business claiming “compelling interest” in its potential life sufficient to ban abortion. And if at that point it is diagnosed with very serious deformities or disabilities, the woman certainly has the right to stop using her own life to grow it. She has the right to quality control for the products that her life is producing.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester. Late term abortions are rare, and generally done for the reasons I listed above.

          • anglel

            I live in a state where they are trying to ban late term abortions. They are legal here because of the high rate of human trafficing. Many women that get them dont even know. Also who is to say that that child if given the chance may still do great things.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So what you’re saying is you don’t care about women whose life and health is endangered by their pregnancy, or women who find out that their babies have conditions that are incompatible with life. You would really force a woman to carry a pregnancy even if it killed or permanently disabled her or even if the child was going to be born with a condition what would result in certain death, such as anencephaly or limb-wall-body complex? Really?

          • anglel

            Then there should be “medically necessary pregnancy termination”. It should not be offered as a general service, but can be done in an emergency room if necessary, with proof of the terminarion as being medically necessary. The pro-choice movement doesnt do that tho and is very irresponsible with their insistance that abortion should be as easy to do and aquire with no questions asked as any contraceptive.

          • anglel

            The pro choicers who are like “freedom to kill babies at will”! are just as hateful in my eyes as pro-lifers who think women who have abortions are dirty sluts that should burn in hell. I support a position that protects an unborn babies life, without negating the difficult position people with vaginas have been put in simply because we have vaginas. The law should be fair and balanced giving rights to unborn children. If the pragnancy must be terminated for medical reasons, it is obvious self defense for the mother.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Getting histrionic again–no said anything about the freedom to ‘kill babies’. And what is this problem you have with using the word uterus? Because that is actually where a pregnancy is carried–since you’ve had five of these, you should know.

          • anglel

            You never answerd my question..If unborn babies have no rights, anyone can cause a pregnant woman to loose her child and not fear any charges outside of assult. Because if her wanted, loved, and cherished child has no rights what so ever before it is born, then the person who caused her miscarriage will get a couple days in jail at the most and a few months of probation.

            Are you okay with this?

          • Arekushieru

            No, YOU are the one arguing no rights for the woman. WE are arguing for equal rights for BOTH the woman and the fetus, whom you somehow think is divine and should have MORE rights than anyone born. If a person causes a woman to abort, that is JUST as anti-choice as you. And against the law. After all, it’s the reason why RAPE is ILLEGAL.

          • fiona64

            If unborn babies have no rights, anyone can cause a pregnant woman to
            loose her child and not fear any charges outside of assult.

            The assault happened to the *woman,* not the fetus. Fetal homicide laws only attach as special circumstances — wait for it — when a WOMAN has been harmed.

            Really, one does wish that the anti-choice would learn to read up on matters before they spew nonsense.

          • anglel

            Sorry you triggered a rant…here goes…I call unborn babies babies. There all babies to me. The uterus thing is besides the point. I just like saying vagina..well..typing it anyway…..I hope someone doesnt base there ideals on this topic on the fact I said vagina instead of uterus…because, like it or not, babies come from vaginas. They may not come out that way, but thats definitely how they went in… I have to hand it to you jennifer, you do better than most in refraining from meaningless insults. This topic is emotional for anyone with a vagina and the last thing we need to do is hurt each other over it. I should be decided amongst women, but not for the sake that we are doing what big bad asshole wants, but for the sake that we listen to our inner voice free of fear and condemnation, and find a reasonable solution that can both protect life and allow for the sensitive and life honoring treatment of tragedy when it occurs. Why did no one ask the woman with the baby who couldnt possibly live, if she wanted to make funeral arraingements? It might have eased her pain. Things like a complementary funeral help to uphold the humanity in a medically necessary procedure. And though she may refuse, it should be a legal obligation to provide her with the choice.

            Im odd, I know, in my mind people should find a way to be nice to each other, and no one should try to get over on someone else for their own benifit. But we dont live in that world.Doesnt mean I dont have to fight for it. Who knows, you might see it in a bill. Instead of the unborn bodies being tossed into biohazard binsand thrown into landfills or burned in mass. Maybe they would have to offer and pay for an obligatory funeral service for the child that died before it was born, or could only live inside the womb.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, no, the baby does not come in from the vagina. The ovum is fertilized by the sperm inside the fallopian tubes and then implants in the uterus–generally a 4-10 day process, more or less. Then when labor occurs, in a vaginal birth, the cervix dilates and the baby comes out of the vagina. But the baby is not carried in the vagina nor created there, though they do come out that way, at least in a vaginal birth. You may like typing vagina instead of fallopian tubes or uterus or cervix, but the fact that you type it does not change basic anatomy. Sorry.

          • fiona64

            You may like typing vagina instead of fallopian tubes or uterus or
            cervix, but the fact that you type it does not change basic anatomy.

            It does, however, show that she has not the slightest concept of basic biology.

          • Arekushieru

            And defending yourself during rape is exactly the same as having an abortion for any reason. Because they are both similar in that you are defending your body from being used in a way you do not want. Therefore, if you try to say that early-term abortions should not be permitted because they are not OBVIOUS self-defense, then no one should be able to defend themselves from rape, EVER.

          • Jennifer Starr

            As medically necessary is an ambiguous term at best, and many ‘pro-lifers’ would like a woman to be just seconds away from death before they might approve an abortion, I think it’s best to leave such things out of the hands of the so-called ‘pro-life’ legislators and leave private medical decisions up to the woman and her doctor where they belong. Keep talking, though. You’re reminding me all the time of why I am, and always will be, pro-choice.

          • anglel

            Without definition yes, however Im sure legislation could fairly unambiguate it in a way that allowed pregnency termination in cases like the ones stated above. The difinition inorder to work could not be ambiguouse. Also the case you were talking about before. The article said that domestic violence was alledged. Had she called the cops and filled the reports when it occured she would have had a restraining order giving her much more leverage in court and the right to appeal the judges decision. Killing an unborn baby wouldnt exactly be a save the day solution to this problem. What would prevent a man like that from stalking her and killing her because she had an abortion?

            Sorry but I just cant agree that abortion is the answer to everything. There may be rare cases where it is necessary, but what about the majority that are not. Its my duty to stand up for the unborn, not that it would hurt those already born,but that their life be protected in some measure by the law

          • Arekushieru

            Their lives ARE already protected to the SAME extent that everyone ELSE is protected. YOU want them to be protected even MORE.

          • fiona64

            Sorry but I just cant agree that abortion is the answer to everything.

            Well, it’s certainly not the answer to *everything.* It doesn’t help with things like where to vacation, or where to dine out. It is, however, the only answer to not wanting, or being able, to gestate.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What about this story here:

            It was almost four years ago today when I decided to end my third pregnancy and I still remember it like it was yesterday. I was expecting my second child (my first pregnancy ended in miscarriage and I had a 14 month old daughter) and was having a fairly easily, uneventful pregnancy other than some bleeding in the first trimester. I went in for my big ultrasound, ready to find out if I was having a boy or a girl and excited about shopping for baby clothes than afternoon with my mom and sister.
            Instead, I found out that my son was very sick… he had a defect in his abdominal wall, he would need surgery immediately after birth, they were referring me for more advanced pre-natal care and my doctor would review the full results with me when she got them. Two weeks later I sat in my doctor’s office as she told me that the report had showed he may not have kidneys- a condition called renal agenesis that is always fatal, but that they may be able to see more in my upcoming level II ultrasound. At the level II ultrasound we found out the full extent of my son’s defects.
            He had a limb wall body complex- in addition to no kidneys and an abdominal wall defect, he had a hole in his heart, underdeveloped lungs, scoliosis and fluid on his brain. He had no anal opening and after he was born we learned he also had no external sex organs. Due to his lack of kidneys, he had no amniotic fluid and he was born with bruises from where he was bumping against my uterus. I was 22 weeks pregnant when I was told that he had no chance of survival and was told by the doctor that he could schedule a termination that day. I was scared and unsure of what to do, so I told the doctor I was planning on carrying the child to term. Care was transferred to my doctor as I no longer needed advanced care.
            The next 5 weeks were agony- I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t sleep, I was missing work, I was sobbing hysterically every time I felt fetal movement. My blood pressure had risen dramatically, I was experiencing contractions. After numerous ultrasounds confirming the diagnosis, consultation with my doctor and several close friends, and weeks of tearful discussions between my husband and I, we decided to induce labor at 27 weeks. Fortunate to live where I do, I was able to stay in my home town with my own doctor, a wonderful and compassionate doctor who made this horrific situation a little bit easier.
            The anti-choicers will tell you that I’m a murderer, that I should have let my son continue to live in the uterus that was beating him, but I know that I did what was right for my son and my family. That American women have lost a compassionate doctor that helped them in their darkest times makes me sad. That the anti-choicers seek to demonize women like me and the doctors that help us makes me angrier than I can possibly describe.

          • anglel

            Of course she is not a demon. Which is why I dont belong to any pro-life groups. It is perfectly acceptable to have a clause for medically necessary pregnancy termination, without making it legal for the other 80% or more that are completely normal.

          • Arekushieru

            Who is to say they may not grow up to be the next Hitler. Argument: Invalid.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Do not pray for me. God might think I hang out with you.

          • anglel

            jesus hung out with tax collectors, what of it

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You can hang with who you like.

          • anglel

            Dr. Henry Truby, Emeritus Professor of Pediatrics and Linguistics at the
            University of Miami, points out that after the sixth month, the fetus
            moves in rhythm to the mother’s speech and that spectrographs of the
            first cry of an abortus at 28 weeks could be matched with his mother’s.

          • anglel

            The ear first appears in the 3rd week of gestation and it becomes
            functional by the 16th week. The fetus begins active listening by the
            24th week. We know from ultrasound observations that the fetus hears and
            responds to a sound pulse starting about 16 weeks of age (Shahidullah
            & Hepper, 1992); this is even before the ear construction is
            complete. The cochlear structures of the ear appear to function by the
            20th week and mature synapses have been found between the 24th and 28th
            weeks (Pujol et al. 1991)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The Ethnic Vegetarian.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What a slob you are. No lie is beneath you.

          • anglel

            Im sorry if you have made a mistake in your past…we all have made mistakes, no one is perfect. Its healthier for humanity to admit them, and heal from them so you dont go around justifying why the mistakes you made were the best option available to you.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes, you definitely are sorry.

          • anglel

            we are all sorry, you, me, and everyone else in this world. If I wasnt so sorry maybe I could do more to get you and every other hate monger/suppoerter to open their hearts and have compassion for those who are vulnerable, and seek to protect them.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Speak for yourself. You are sorry. I am the Vagabond Queen of France.

          • anglel

            hatred and denial is a sorry state to be in.

            If your the Vagabond Queen of France, Im the gutterpunk Mother Theresa.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No. You are a hippy-dippy erstwhile pagan writer who needs an editor bigtime. Your pose is nonviolent Earth Mother Goddess worshiper while you advocate chattel slavery and rape for women. You owe every woman on this board who has had an abortion, or helped their child or friend get an abortion, an apology for calling them murderers.

          • fiona64

            Bon soir, ma reine. ;-)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A fetus is human tissue, it is alive like my arm is alive, and if I do not want it, it is out of there. Too bad, so sad.

          • anglel

            Dr. Bjorn Merker, a Swedish neuroscientist. It included observations of five children with hydranencephaly,
            in which most or all of the cortex is missing, replaced with fluid. Dr.
            Merker wrote that they appeared to smile and cry, and theorized that
            “the tacit consensus concerning the cerebral cortex as the ‘organ of
            consciousness’ ” may “be seriously in error.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Spoonbread and Strawberry Wine.

          • Jennifer Starr

            ‘Family Research Council’ crap. You do know that they’re a hate group, don’t you?

          • anglel

            Invasive diagnostic and therapeutic techniques are increasingly applied
            to the fetus. It is not known if the fetus feels pain during such
            procedures, but the fetus does mount significant stress hormonal and
            circulatory changes in response to these from 18–20 weeks. Perinatal
            stress may have long-term neurodevelopmental implications. During open
            fetal surgery, maternal general anaesthesia provides fetal anaesthesia.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Cooking European at Home and Abroad.

          • anglel

            nothing to do with babies…I get, you dont care about unborn babies. Your happy that they die when whoever wants them to. Im not…

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Be My Baby.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, actually, we do know at what point the fetus has the capacity to experience pain .. because we know when the myelin sheath finishes forming. And we also know that anesthesia is systemic; if the woman is anesthetized, so is the fetus.

            We also know that you are a plagiarist. Your post is taken word for word from here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10986451

            You really need to learn how to credit peoples’ work instead of pretending it’s your own.

          • anglel

            Your Pregnancy

            Week 8

            New this Week: Webbed fingers and toes are poking out from your baby’s hands and feet

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The ABC of Cocktails.

          • anglel

            week 9

            Her essential body parts are accounted for, though they’ll go through
            plenty of fine-tuning in the coming months. Other changes abound: Your
            baby’s heart finishes dividing into four chambers, and the valves start
            to form — as do her tiny teeth. The embryonic “tail” is completely gone.
            Your baby’s organs, muscles, and nerves are kicking into gear. The
            external sex organs are there but won’t be distinguishable as male or
            female for another few weeks. Her eyes are fully formed, but her eyelids
            are fused shut and won’t open until 27 weeks.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Salsas and Ketchups.

          • anglel

            still nothing to do with babies. I guess you have given up logical discussion in favor of giving in to your own insecurities…

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            My Baby Must Be a Magician.

          • 65snake

            No, I think logical discussion went out the window when you logged on. You are unbelievably arrogant, judgmental, and uncaring. I feel sorry for any of your offspring being stuck with you for a mother.

          • anglel

            My children will value their own lives and the lives of others. If that makes you sorry, what does that say about you?

          • 65snake

            My apologies, I did not realize that you also have no reading comprehension. Try again, without the straw man.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What I’d like to know is when they start writing those cheesy little diaries that ‘pro-lifers’ are so fond of handing out….

          • fiona64

            I know, right? How do they get the pen and paper up there? (Or, in the case of “Umbert the Unborn” — remember creepy Cangiolini? — a computer …)

          • anglel

            its called prenatal care….you can learn quite allot about an unborn baby that way.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So prenatal care helps a fetus to write a cheesy diary that ends with ‘today my mommy killed me?’ Do tell.

          • anglel

            its a personification based on what has been learned about developing babies

          • fiona64

            No, it’s a smarmy and idiotic anthropomorphization created by anti-choicers who think women are so stupid that they need peripheral “arguments” based on non-facts in order to convince them that their unwanted or medically untenable pregnancy is *neither.*

          • anglel

            I dont know if you can convince someone not to hate themselves much less a person apart from them that they are responsible for nurturing. No one can really take away the choice to have a baby or not away from a woman. Thats is impossible. Just like it is impossible to take away the choice for someone to go and steal from a store.

            It will always be a personal decision, and no law can take that away. The law can, and should, have consequences for violent actions taken against a human being, whether forming or breathing, making exceptions only for self defence.

            The choice is always up to the individual. The consequences are not.

          • fiona64

            The law can, and should, have consequences for violent actions taken
            against a human being, whether forming or breathing, making exceptions
            only for self defence. (guess what, medical necessity and rape would
            fall under).

            Okay, girl genius … what punishment should a woman receive for terminating a pregnancy?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Forced pregnancy and birth is violence.

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s poorly-written tripe created by people whose idea of fine art is a cheesy ‘Precious Moments’ figurine.

          • anglel

            Though he’s barely the size of a kumquat
            — a little over an inch or so long, crown to bottom — and weighs less
            than a quarter of an ounce, your baby has now completed the most
            critical portion of his development. This is the beginning of the
            so-called fetal period, a time when the tissues and organs in his body
            rapidly grow and mature.

            He’s swallowing fluid and kicking up a
            storm. Vital organs — including his kidneys, intestines, brain, and
            liver (now making red blood cells in place of the disappearing yolk sac)
            — are in place and starting to function, though they’ll continue to
            develop throughout your pregnancy.

            If you could take a peek inside your womb,
            you’d spot minute details, like tiny nails forming on fingers and toes
            (no more webbing) and peach-fuzz hair beginning to grow on tender skin.

            In
            other developments: Your baby’s limbs can bend now. His hands are
            flexed at the wrist and meet over his heart, and his feet may be long
            enough to meet in front of his body. The outline of his spine is clearly
            visible through translucent skin, and spinal nerves are beginning to
            stretch out from his spinal cord. Your baby’s forehead temporarily
            bulges with his developing brain and sits very high on his head, which
            measures half the length of his body. From crown to rump, he’s about 1
            1/4 inches long. In the coming weeks, your baby will again double in size — to nearly 3 inches.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The Frugal Gourmet.

          • Jennifer Starr

            America’s Test Kitchen.

          • jejune

            They really believe that emotion laden descriptions of fetal development will make us change our minds.

            The fetus has eyelids omg, dont’ abort!

          • Jennifer Starr

            What’s particularly annoying is how they act like we don’t already know all this.

          • jejune

            Remember what myintx said: pregnant women don’t know that a jellybean sized embryo is a ‘baby’ because their ‘liberal friends’ lied to them about it!!

          • fiona64

            They’ve all been drinking from the Well of Stupidity, so they assume we have, too.

          • jejune

            Lizzie Olive and I are ignoring you know who now.

            We keep going around in circles, and it isn’t much fun if it’s just a couple of us. I feel like i am spamming the board every time I tell Mathilde to stfu.

            However, I will continue to flag her offensive posts;)

          • fiona64

            I think flagging and down-voting is all I will do from now on as well. It’s like trying to teach a pig to sing.

          • jejune

            Yep, and it will annoy her when we flag her posts and she doesn’t get a response from anyone :)

            Once that thread dies, I will be curious to see what she does next.

            It’s like playing with a fish, in a barrel.

          • jejune

            I have noticed, over the last 24 hours, that if we are not all replying to my’s posts, that she:

            1) searches for our old posts, or any old post, that she can reply to

            2) is less confrontational, and worries about being ‘misunderstood’

            hehe

            I think she likes the attention that she gets from this. Probably feels like some sort of martyr. I honestly don’t know how she does it. I could not spend months at LAN or LIEsite with everybody angrily replying to me all day long. It would drive me batty.

          • fiona64

            … or maybe Yan Can Cook?

          • anglel

            our baby, just over 1 1/2 inches long and about the size of a fig,
            is now almost fully formed. Her hands will soon open and close into
            fists, tiny tooth buds are beginning to appear under her gums, and some
            of her bones are beginning to harden.

            She’s already busy kicking
            and stretching, and her tiny movements are so effortless they look like
            water ballet. These movements will become more frequent as her body
            grows and becomes more developed and functional. You won’t feel your
            baby’s acrobatics for another month or two — nor will you notice the
            hiccupping that may be happening now that her diaphragm is forming.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            American Home Cooking.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The Encyclopedia of Italian Cooking.

          • anglel

            Week 12

            he most dramatic development this week: reflexes. Your baby’s fingers
            will soon begin to open and close, his toes will curl, his eye muscles
            will clench, and his mouth will make sucking movements. In fact, if you

            prod your abdomen, your baby will squirm in response, although you won’t
            be able to feel it.

            His intestines, which have grown so fast that they
            protrude into the umbilical cord, will start to move into his abdominal
            cavity about now, and his kidneys will begin excreting urine into his
            bladder.

            Meanwhile, nerve cells are multiplying rapidly, and in
            your baby’s brain, synapses are forming furiously. His face looks
            unquestionably human: His eyes have moved from the sides to the front of
            his head, and his ears are right where they should be. From crown to
            rump, your baby-to-be is just over 2 inches long (about the size of a lime) and weighs half an ounce.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            The New Fannie Farmer Cookbook.

          • fiona64
          • anglel

            Fingerprints have formed on your baby’s tiny fingertips, her veins and
            organs are clearly visible through her still-thin skin, and her body is
            starting to catch up with her head — which makes up just a third of her
            body size now. If you’re having a girl, she now has more than 2 million
            eggs in her ovaries. Your baby is almost 3 inches long (about the size of a pea pod) and weighs nearly an ounce.

          • Ella Warnock

            Yes, that’s how we know she’s valuable, because she’s already got ovaries. I don’t, and I know exactly how “valuable” I am to society at large. Good thing I don’t think my value is bound up in my vagina or boobs.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well, you keep yourself busy, BooBoo. Because if you come near one of my daughters to enforce your forced birth agenda, I will stand my ground.

          • anglel

            My fight to save unborn babies lives starts where the people dothe killing. I would hope that you would raise your daughters to be more compassionate and responsible, but if all parents were perfect the world wouldnt need abortion.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Come near my girls in real life, and I will shoot you like any rabid dog. I would feel bad about the dog.

          • anglel

            Like I said, I bear no ill intent toward you or your daughters. I do and will take my physical presence to the places that do the abortions. I get it now. Your heart is twisted, and you like it that way. Some people hide behind a cause to justify their twisted heart so they can do twisted things in the name of their cause…..

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Come near my girls in real life, and I will shoot you like any rabid dog. I would feel bad about the dog.

          • anglel

            Your hatred saddens me. Come near me and Ill smile, offer you some tea and a hug, and invite you te heal with me.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You skeeve me.

          • fiona64

            I do and will take my physical presence to the places that do the abortions.

            And if you interfere with patients or physicians there, you will be arrested.

            Some people hide behind a cause to justify their twisted heart so they can do twisted things in the name of their cause…..

            You mean, like your fellow anti-choicers Scott Roeder, Eric Rudolph, James Charles Kopp and Paul Jennings Hill?

          • anglel

            I never said I would go there protesting and making a fuss. There are right ways to do things. Ways that dont cause more harm. They might make people angry, but why would I want traumatize a woman who is in that situation? That would not be the type of empowering action that would accomplish anything but more people siding for a cause.

            Whatever you might assume, I suggest you not lump me into any categories. I dont take sides with issues, I take sides of right and wrong. Two wrongs dont make a right, they just make more wrong.

            Indeed. People who harbour hatred will find any excuse to act deplorable.

          • fiona64

            I dont take sides with issues, I take sides of right and wrong.

            What qualifies you to be the arbiter of “right” and “wrong” when it comes to a stranger’s medical decisions? Are you a physician?

          • anglel

            Pregnancy isnt a “medical procedure”. It is a completely natural process that creates a new life. something unnatural interfering in that natural process where life is concerned should be regulated.

          • fiona64

            Pregnancy is a medical condition, you dimwitted buffoon. It is not even remotely a state of wellness, and women *die from complications of it every damn day, right here in the United States.*

            And you did not answer the question: what qualifies you to be the arbiter of “right” and “wrong” when it comes to a stranger’s medical decisions? Are you a physician?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually,yes, pregnancy is a medical condition. That’s why you go in for regular checkups and prenatal care, take vitamins and have an ultrasound read by a doctor to determine if your pregnancy is progressing normally and that is well. There are even doctors who specialize in this field–I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of them, but they’re called OB/GYNs? And they know a lot more about medicine than you, your church, or some so-called ‘pro-life’ legislator.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Come near my children in real life in the service of your agenda, and I will stand my ground. I think it is time the FBI got your screen name.

          • anglel

            I dont want to come near your children. I think you might want to put the bottle away and drink some coffee. Sober up a bit. Im sure the FBI already does have my screen name, as I am a radical in that I dont support violence in any form, not even to protest violence. I have no fear in them or you, because I stand by my principals “And ye harm none, do what thou wilt”.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do not read what you type?

          • anglel

            You support unaccountable abuse, neglect, and death of the most vulnerable, for the sake of claiming freedom from the responsibility that comes with having a vagina.

            Your analogy is like being mad at fire for being hot, because you want to be able to pick up a hot coal and enjoy freedom from not being burned. Our society twists sex because it is enjoyable, but it is in a way a hot coal. It makes no more sense to be angry at fire because it burns you, than it does to be angry that you had sex, got pregnant, and must now give birth. If you dont want to be burned, put on various fire resistant materials guaranteeing your best chance against being burned, or keep your hand out of the fire.

            To call it chattel slavery is to say that women have no power, ability, sense, or conscious to mitigate circumstances before it becomes an issue of killing. I think we women are better than that.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I support women controlling thier own bodies, fertility and families without input from or interference by Forced Birthers.

          • anglel

            your against rights for unborn children, whether they are wanted or not.

          • fiona64

            You’re absolutely correct. Fetii are not persons, and do not have rights. Women, OTOH, are persons … and their rights will always trump those of a potential person.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A fetus becomes a legal person with all the privileges and duties of that state when it survives birth.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Children are born. A fetus has no rights. Children have rights. A fetus gains all the privileges and duties of legal personhood when it survives birth.

          • lady_black

            There are no “rights” for “unborn children.”

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You support making abortion illegal. That is supporting violence against women. Your mindset is the equivalent of rape. It is reproductive chattel slavery. And it is unconstitutional. I was 30 years old when Roe v. Wade was passed. Thank you, God.

          • anglel

            Women need to understand that when they have sex they could bring a life into the world. That is a natural consequence of sex.

            Killing the baby isn’t a responsible way out, it denies the rights of the unborn.

            Abortion chooses someone death for the sake of freedom granted to the one who caused the situation. Those who choose someone’s death for the sake of their own freedom cannot be said to be doing something good.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. I will have lots of hot and sizzling sex. I will use contraception. If I become pregnant, I will decide to gestate or abort as I see fit. Not as YOU see fit.

          • fiona64

            Consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to pregnancy.

            One begins to think that you are jealous of women who are just a teensy bit better at family planning than anyone who has five kids by age 30 …

          • lady_black

            “Women need to understand that when they have sex they could bring a life into the world. That is a natural consequence of sex.”
            Or not.

          • fiona64

            If you’re Wiccan, I’m the Queen of Sheba.

          • anglel

            Im a Christian, interesting enough the Bible would support “and ye harm none, do what thou will”. But stupid people dont understand what “harm” means, so you have to create a laundry list and spell it out for them. That’s what the bible is.

          • fiona64

            So, first you claim you were a Satanist (which is just another branch of Christianity, since Satan is a Christian construct), then you trot out the Wiccan Rede … and now you’re a Christian trying to pretend that the Wiccan Rede has anything to do with the Bible?

            Really?

            The Rede includes harm to one’s self — such as would be suffered with an unwanted/untenable pregnancy, just so you know.

            Don’t pretend to be something you’re not; those of us who know better ::ahem:: will catch on pretty quickly.

          • anglel

            In my past I have also been Muslim, Vaishnava, Bhuddist, and a religion of my own creation. If you knew anything about LaVey you would know that Satanism is opposed to deity outside of self. The Satanism you are referring to is….in enclaves of the catholic church. I am Christian now. My past is varied. If having sex would bring about harm, one should avoid it. Or cause harm…and have it revisit you many fold.

          • fiona64

            Dear, I guarantee that I have *forgotten* more about Anton Szandor LaVey than you’ve ever learned.

            I’m going to be 50 on my next birthday, and I’ve practiced Wicca for longer than you’ve been *alive.* I’ve also been a Christian. Pro-tip: reading an article about a faith doesn’t make you a practitioner.

            Thanks for the update on your membership in the Religion-of-the-Month Club, though. Which box do you have to check on the return card to create your own religion?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think you’ve spouted your own bs so many times that you actually start to believe it.

          • Lizzie

            “My fight to save unborn babies lives starts where the people dothe killing”

            oh, so you’re one of those shitty sidewalk “counselors” without a life so you harass people. GOT IT!

          • anglel

            No, Ive never been a sidewalk counselor. I dont think Im qualified…I dont have the gift of gab. Im more of a legal action type of person. Let those trained in that sort of thing do the talking for me.

          • lady_black

            No… you really CAN’T tell the sex of the fetus at 12 weeks. And YES, a fetus 21 weeks or less is just tissue, no matter how much it resembles a baby. It is unable to survive without it’s host organism (in mammal species) and is alive only in the sense that your arm, leg or uterus is “alive” Separate a fetus, arm, leg or uterus from the only heartbeat that really matters and the tissue dies. A “heartbeat” without the ability to oxygenate the blood is meaningless.

          • choiceone

            Unassisted suicide is legal in all 50 states.

            The heart of an embryo or fetus is not even structured as the heart of a born neonate. The birth process changes the structure of the heart and transforms the circulatory, immune, and other physiological systems of the fetus so that it becomes a human being that is able to breathe air and take in nutrients without violating someone else’s body against their will, conscience, or freedom of religion.

            An embryo or fetus simply removed from a woman’s body before it has sufficiently developed lungs will immediately die, and if the woman’s body dies, so will that insufficiently developed embryo or fetus. It does not have a life of its own.

            Anyone who even thinks of bitchslapping someone is so vulgar that their views are already semi-barbaric.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Vulgar? Little old me? Thank you.

          • choiceone

            Agreed on this. I’m only concerned to point out to our shared opponent that, though unassisted suicide used used to be a crime in a variety of states, it is now completely legal. People only get in trouble on this when they attempt but fail at suicide and are treated as presenting social problems or when there is an issue of someone assisting a suicide.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you. Understood.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Vulgar? Litlle old me? Thank you.

            Assisted suicide is legal in two states. Unassisted suicide has varying legal consequences in the US and around the world.

            The fetal heart when most abortions are done is a pulsating tube.

            A fetus is alive like my arm is alive. You cut my arm off, it dies.

          • choiceone

            We are both pro-choice and don’t appear to disagree on anything – once it’s biologically implanted, an embryo or fetus is alive like my arm is alive. I also despise women who are not for women on this issue. So let’s not fight. But I still think bitchslapping is vulgar.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have no intention of fighting with you. You are intelligent and informed on this issue. Granted you are a more formal and polite person than I; I think there is room for more than one style of communication in the universe.

          • fiona64

            Actually, no. Suicide is not against the law, at least not in the US.

            I mean, come on. How do you prosecute a suicide? Get real.

          • anglel

            attempted suicide. They lock you in a nut ward till they think you have “gotten better”

          • Jennifer Starr

            Still not a criminal offense. Will not show up on your criminal record.

          • lady_black

            Yeah suicide is “technically” against the law. Also IMPOSSIBLE to enforce. You know what else is impossible to enforce? Forcing women to gestate. In the early 70s, some feminist women developed menstrual extraction as a way to avoid the legal complications of abortion laws. It’s safe, reliable, and will simply make a huge comeback if necessary. You’re spitting into a hurricane.

          • Arekushieru

            Really? I consider suicide a responsible decision. Because you are RESPONDING to a situation. Do you consider an impoverished woman who endangers her health and life and those of her EXISTING children to bring an expensive pregnancy to term is being responsible? If so, you are a hypocrite.

          • choiceone

            Suicide is legal in all 50 states.

            A pregnant woman grows a human being from an embryo. The embryo does not grow itself or keep itself alive at any point. If the woman dies before the woman has grown all of the organs and developed the lungs sufficiently, the embryo or inadequately developed fetus will immediately die, too, even if it is immediately removed from the woman’s body. During the embryonic stage, it is still going through organogenesis, and early in the fetal phase of development, it has no life but that which comes from the woman’s own body to keep it alive. The notion that it is a person with a right to life is inherently irresponsible.

          • lady_black

            As the other poster stated, simply because you don’t like the method of accepting responsibility doesn’t magically transform it into NOT taking responsibility. A woman has sex (as is her right), becomes pregnant, and decides whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term. That’s taking responsibility. She isn’t asking YOU to take responsibility, she is taking it upon herself.

      • Lizzie

        Anyone who links to that much lifesitenews on their facebook is clearly misogynist and a zealot. Your opinion is invalid.

        • jejune

          Should we just ignore you know who?

          You and I are the only two who are really talking to her now.

          Perhaps she will just go away if she doesn’t get any attention.

          • Lizzie

            yes, I think that we should. It’s a broken record at this point.

          • jejune

            Agreed.

            Ignoring her from this point forward.

            If the thread ever picks up again, and a bunch of people join in and ream her out, sure, I will consider it.

            But right now, as it stands, we are just going around in circles.

            At least that VD person on the other thread shook things up this weekend.

          • Lizzie

            so was so defensive!

          • jejune

            Yeah, she was.

            And she kept conflating human with human being.

            And the stupid bitch also subscribed to the idea that every embryo is a tiny homunculus.

            AND she had the nerve to start lecturing us on science.

          • jejune

            I am going to keep flagging her posts, that ones that are inflammatory anyways

            Wanna help me :P

  • xuinkrbin

    I would be careful with this line of reasoning. My instincts tell Me it could backfire.

  • finishstrongdoc

    Not a week after Miley Cyrus’ twerking event on national television, we have a case of a college co-ed, drunk beyond drunk, wandering onto the football field and getting arrested, then blowing .341 on the breathalyzer, so drunk she should have been dead. Her screen shot? Sticking out her tongue at the world. Her Twitter account was flooded with “marriage proposals” as “the ideal woman.” See how this works? As someone, I think it was Ron Paul, said, “Whatever you subsidize, you get more of.”

    “Whatever you advertise, you get more of.” Apparently mindless following of the latest trends (and whatever “their media” approves of) is what is happening more and more these days. Apologists for the hook-up culture who make plausible lies sound like logic, are gratefully swallowed by those who have been taught that being “sexy” is equated with success in life.

    In other news over the weekend, in New Jersey, two college-aged girls die from overdoses of Ecstasy at a rave party.
    Drunken college student proudly tweets .341 blood-alcohol content test results – NY Daily News

    • Valde

      Yes, clearly, contraception is to blame for this.

      • bj_survivor

        Dontcha know, Valde: Boys will be boys and all that, but If girls are allowed to sow their wild oats the sky will fall and the baby Jeebus will weep.

    • HeilMary1

      Well isn’t that special! Church Chump filling in for Church Lady! You do know that Dana Carvey was just snarking you, don’t you?

    • AZDem9933

      Seriously, I do appreciate when you guys stop pretending it’s about “life” and own up to it being about wanting to punish the dirty, dirty sluts.

    • Amanda Marcotte

      Clearly, the female gender needs to be put under lock and key.

      • choiceone

        Chastity belt?

    • johnradke

      What does this have to do with anything?

    • fiona64

      Um … way, way, way off topic.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Doesn’t even make sense and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the article. Incidentally, did you even read the article?

    • Ella Warnock

      Are you sure you didn’t wander in here drunk?

    • anglel

      I used to be one of those dirty sluts..its not about punishment, its about giving girls something to live for besides being someones drunken sex object. Showing them how to truly claim their identities and love themselves outside of who wants to f()@% them…

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        Nobody here cares about your sex life. Really.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I find you annoying so I flipped you off. But I decided to support your recommendation of abstinence. Here is an article written for my blog by a my friend Ocean that makes what I think are good arguments for abstinence. Nowhere does she suggest that abstinence be required or its absence penalized. I republished it again in your honor.

        Teen Abstinence: A WINNING Advantage

        Many teens do not realize that abstinence from sex with partners is a winning advantage. This is why I think it’s important to give teens a list of the freedoms that abstinence provides. The top ten winning advantages of teen abstinence are:

        1. Freedom from unwanted teen pregnancy and teen motherhood.

        2. Freedom from incurable STDs like Herpes and fatal STDs like AIDS.

        3. Freedom to concentrate on school work and participate in school activities.

        4. Freedom to get all homework assignments and studying done and maintain or improve grades.

        5. Freedom to participate in learning programs for future jobs and careers.

        6. Freedom to graduate with classmates and receive a high school diploma.

        7. Freedom to move on to college or vocational school with no restrictions.

        8. Freedom to complete a college or vocational program with a degree or certificate.

        9. Freedom to look for and accept good jobs with higher salaries.

        10. Freedom to get valuable job experience in a chosen career and take courses to learn more job skills.

        Getting pregnant and becoming a teen mother will, quite possibly, take away most of these freedoms, if not all of them. A teen mom has to put the care of her baby first, which means putting her education second. If she has to study for an important test and the baby is sick, the studying may not get done because she has to care for the baby. That may result in her doing poorly on the exam instead of doing well. If a teen mom wants to attend her junior or senior prom but has no one to watch the baby for her, she can’t go to the dance and has to stay home. If a teen mom is going to college, she may fail one or more classes because caring for her baby or child took priority over completing all her course requirements. A teen mom may even have to drop out of high school or college because she could not take care of her baby and do all her school work at the same time.

        By contrast, a teen girl who realizes that abstinence from sex in high school and college is a clear winning advantage will avoid sex with partners during those years. She will keep her freedom to enjoy all the advantages that teen abstinence offers. She is free to concentrate in school, get all her class and homework assignments done, attend any dances she wishes, and take part in school activities like working on the school newspaper or yearbook. Best of all, she will graduate with her class and go on to college or vocational school afterward.

        If she avoids sexual activity with partners during her college or vocational school years, she will continue to enjoy the advantages indefinitely. She may even decide at some point that she prefers the career world over marriage and children, which is a perfectly valid choice. Not all women wish to be wives and mothers.

        It is my firm belief that there is nothing good about getting pregnant as a teenager. Teen pregnancy and teen motherhood can impair or even destroy a girl’s ability to get a good education, which is the foundation for good employment. If a girl cannot get a good job because she doesn’t have a high school diploma, poverty may become inevitable.

        Sadly, many teen girls don’t know how very hard teen motherhood is until it is too late. They don’t know because no one ever told them, either at home or at school. It is about time that changed. The “just say no” approach to abstinence-only sex education programs is miserably inadequate because it doesn’t explain WHY teens, especially girls, should say no to sex. Encouraging abstinence is fine, as long as teens are given good reasons why abstinence is better for teens than sex. The top ten list of winning advantages is a good informational tool to start off with. When a large majority of teens have this information, they may soon begin to realize that enjoying the advantages of abstinence is a much better option for them than being trapped by the burden of teen motherhood.

        • choiceone

          I support abstinence as one of many options. and I do think it is a good one. But why stress it only for teens?

          You can get pregnant or get STDs as an adult, even a middle-aged one – and even a married one, since husbands have been known to cheat on their wives with others, so one never knows where his thing has been.

          Furthermore, getting pregnant and continuing the pregnancy and giving birth and having kids all interfere with your education and career at any time unless you specifically choose motherhood as your educational and career specialization.

          So, really, you ought to advocate that women, too, abstain from sex and even marriage because they are disadvantageous in almost all educational and career specializations.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I have no opinion about the sex lives of others. I hope they enjoy and keep safe. I did not write the essay that I postedl

          • choiceone

            As long as it’s consensual and not sex abuse of children or dirty old men exploiting teen girls, neither do I have an opinion.

            My concern is only that the anti-abortion people keep stressing abstinence before marriage. They have got to figure out eventually that their arguments are not good. Teen girls are better off abstaining, yes, but this is not just for the reasons they claim. People should be ready for sex. In addition, I do think that [regnant female people should be allowed to decide whether or not to continue their pregnancies, but girls who are 14, let alone 12 or younger, are at much greater risk of death or injury in childbirth than women of 21. Etc. Youth should learn all the facts about pregnancy and childbirth as well as sex in decent sex ed.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Yes, we need to do education in human biology starting in grade school. Some friends of my daughters were having intercourse at 12. Nothing would do a better of job of preventing abortion and STDs.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Look out Henny Penny! The sky is falling!

  • John1966

    Wow, your contempt is oozing out of every pore. It’s not about what you do in bed, it’s about you getting into our wallets. You conveniently transformed all your critics into demons, then slew them with your childish rhetoric. You are suffering from the paranoid feminist delusion that ovulation is a disease, and contraception is curative medicine. If your employer doesn’t want to include contraception in a health insurance plan, why should they? Should they have to provide dental care or acupuncture or body waxing just because you want it? What obligation are they under to provide any health insurance at all? You think others owe you arbitrary benefits, so you demand they be provided, coerced by government mandate. You subscribe to the childish fantasy that insurance is a money tree, everything is free if it’s just written into the policy. Your arrogance is staggering. If you want contraception, you are totally free to buy it, and it is very cheap, thanks to capitalism. Once it’s mandated, then the price will skyrocket, as history proves.

    • Valde

      Yeah dude. Women want to fuck like rabbits and take all your money. Cuz they are such s1uts.

      /snark

      • Arekushieru

        Only because he doesn’t think they should have contraception on HIS dime. But, hey, anti-choice has no problem talking the talk, but not walking the walk. They’ll ask everyone ELSE to accept ‘responsibility’ for ‘their’ mistakes, but when it comes to a situation they, THEMSELVES, created…? All I can say is good fucking luck.

    • Kathi J

      Contraception is a ‘give-away’ for insurance companies, inexpensive, cost-effective since it prevents the far more expensive benefits for pregnancy/childbirth.

      • HeilMary1

        $600-1,200 annually is far cheaper than $40,000-4,000,000 annually for disabled and dead mothers and infants.

      • AZDem9933

        Also you’d think people who believe abortion is the worst thing evar would be eager to contribute to that which reduces the need for abortion. But nope, the desire to punish sluts outweighs even their stated desire to “save babies”.

        • Kathi J

          Sadly many of the same rabid anti-abortion folks are equally anti-contraception and would gladly make most if not all forms of birth control illegal if they could.

          • AZDem9933

            They’re this close to openly calling for women to be arrested for fornicating.

          • HeilMary1

            With their OWN HUSBANDS to boot!

          • Ella Warnock

            Word. Especially if they don’t intend to breed. That’s the dirtiest sex of all!

          • HeilMary1

            Yes, that is the sad conclusion of married Catholic theologian Uta Ranke-Heinemann who discovered that the pretend celibate priests were pushing completely unconsummated Josephite marriages a la Joseph and Mary.

    • bj_survivor

      Yes, it’s true, we have nothing but contempt for misogyny and misogynists.

      Furthermore, contraception is basic, preventative health care that actually benefits everyone, even men who don’t have sex with women. That’s because all people are born from women. And healthy mother = healthy baby.

    • HeilMary1

      Your murderous contempt for women is staggering. You murderously demand the US return to the bad old days when white male robber barons could buy all the underage starving prostitutes they desired because the orphan girls’ mothers died from 10-30 childbirths. You viciously pretend that not only does yearly $600-1,200 contraception prevent insurance and employment companies, governments and families from going bankrupt with $40,000 to several million dollar childbirth disasters, but also that the same contraception has doubled MEN’S lives by sparing them 100 hour work weeks to support those 10-30 kids and contraception has guaranteed men middle class wages by peacefully, voluntarily reducing stiff worker competition for their existing jobs. Quit pushing pedophile priests’ junk science.

    • AZDem9933

      You can’t even get through a paragraph without dropping the pretense that it’s about “paying for it” and launching into a misogynistic tirade. Pathetic.

    • Amanda Marcotte

      How is what I do with benefits I earned about “your” wallet, unless you believe that my earnings, my body, and my life belong to you? Yes, I have serious contempt for people who believe that other people *belong* to them, and that I cannot earn my own money—that it is *your* money, no matter how hard I worked, and *you* get to tell me how to spend it.

      But thanks for telling me that the choice over whether or not *my* body ovulates belongs to *you*, because you get to define *my* body for me.

    • fiona64

      What obligation are they under to provide any health insurance at all?

      Well, there is that pesky Affordable Care Act …

      If you want contraception, you are totally free to buy it, and it is very cheap, thanks to capitalism.

      And you want to talk about Amanda being contemptuous? I have news for you, John: not all contraception is “very cheap,” and not all of it is effective.

      • Arekushieru

        And ‘cheap’ is relative. A nine dollar pack of condoms may be ‘cheap’ for you or I, but for another woman it will most likely mean a choice between putting food on the table/feeding EVERY member of her family or forcing one of them to go hungry, all because this privileged, white-ass, middle class MALE is concerned about the inexpensive cost of contraception (and that’s ‘relatively’, btw).

        • anglel

          A woman in that position (talking from experience here) should be offered free counseling and life coaching so that she can get her priorities straight before taking on the responsibility of copulation. She might find it more beneficial to find love within herself instead of a meaningless rubbing of genital membranes which may end in death (for any unwanted children that may pop up in the mean time.) She might then apply herself in such a way as to find a way out of her poverty stricken condition, into a slightly better outlook that would allow her to buy the condoms she so desires when the time is right.

          • Jennifer Starr

            How about you manage your own sex life and let other people manage theirs?

          • anglel

            I have no problem when people MANAGE their sex lives. Contraception is a great idea. Im not against it at all. Im just against anything that could get an innocent unborn killed

          • fiona64

            I am so sick of this “innocent unborn” concept.

            Fetii are neither innocent nor guilty. They are unconscious; they have no conscience. They lack the capacity for innocence or guilt.

            Furthermore, when you assign “innocence” to a fetus, you perforce assign “guilt” to a woman merely for being pregnant. And if she doesn’t want to be pregnant, whether those reasons are medical or not, you make her “guilty” of daring to have sex without wanting to have a child.

            You said you have five kids. How would you like it if someone made a law that said no one could have more than four kids, before you had your fifth one? You’d probably crap a gold-plated brick over having your reproductive rights abrogated. Well, you advocate doing the same thing — just from the other side of the coin. The laws that you propose, making it illegal for a woman to end a pregnancy? Can also be turned around to make it illegal for a woman to continue one.

            Or hadn’t you thought about that?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What is an “unborn?” Is that kind of like The Undead?

          • 65snake

            What exactly is wrong with you?
            So, a poor family should just practice abstinence, and not even have the comfort of physical contact between husband and wife, rather than be responsible and use contraception? And said marital relations are “meaningless rubbing of genital membranes”?
            As for applying herself to find a way out of poverty….have you been living under a rock? Child care is hideously expensive, higher education is also ridiculously expensive, and most jobs available at a lower level of education right now pay minimum wage – which doesn’t even cover the cost of child care while she’s working.
            Seriously, you need to get a reality check before you spout off about the “responsibility of copulation” or any other thing at all, for that matter.
            That post was offensive and ignorant in the extreme. I don’t know what experience you purport to have, but I doubt it exists. You are way to judgmental to have actually been there yourself. You do, however, manage to make some pretty extreme and insulting assumptions about who is using birth control.

          • fiona64

            Somehow I missed the “meaningless rubbing of genital membranes” on the first go-round. I guess that’s how xie defines any sex that doesn’t make a baybee. Feh.

          • anglel

            its sex without love. Some guy trying to get his rocks off and feeding a girl a line of crap. Thats what I meant by meaningless……

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’re making an awful lot of assumptions and stereotypes here.

          • anglel

            Im a woman….I know the guys and their lines…..Ive had them fed to me since i was eight years old…..”baby i love you”…and “i would do anything for you”…till you ask them for commitment then they go do your best friend. If this hypothetical chick has children that she is struggling to provide for, chances are she has been fed the line before. She is nurturing and caring for everyone but herself, and just wants a man who will treat her right. She has to learn how to love and accept herself for who she is. That can take a while.

          • anglel

            Just want to add this, every guy that dumps on her makes this process harder and harder. So, yea. No steroetype. It goes for any woman because 1 out of 3 woman have been abused, recovering from it can be very difficult. It feels good to know that my vag isnt a playground. That my innermost being is sacred and deserves to be shared with only the best person for me. Its hard to get there. I know, because Ive been through it. Once your there though, life feels so different.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry for what you’ve been through, but again, everyone is not you.

          • fiona64

            I’m also a survivor of domestic violence. If you have experienced this, you have my sincere sympathies.

            By the same token, you still don’t get to make decisions for anyone other than yourself.

          • fiona64

            What a lot of stereotypical nonsense.

            You seem to imply that “sex without love” = any sex that doesn’t result in a baybee.

            RIdiculous prima facie.

            And, so long as both partners are consenting, it’s none of your business whether someone is having “sex without love.”

          • choiceone

            You know what? If a man really loves a woman, he doesn’t want her to carry five pregnancies to term, because with every pregnancy and childbirth past two, it becomes much more likely that the woman will have serious health problems for the rest of her life.

            I knew a naive Christian husband and wife who were both anti-choice and were very upset that they had not been able to get the woman pregnant after trying a long time. They were Christians. I told the guy that, if he wanted God to answer their prayer about pregnancy, they had to stop trying to prevent God from answering the prayers about pregnancy of women who did not want to get or stay pregnant. He understood, they became pro-choice, and shortly after that, his wife got pregnant.

            Then, in early pregnancy, she had some problems and had to go to the hospital because she was having trouble keeping the pregnancy going. Tears were in his eyes as he told me how worried he was about his wife and how he had not known pregnancy could hurt her so. She was, he said, much more important than having a baby.

            It all turned out well in the end, a lovely little girl, but that man finally learned what loving your wife actually means. It doesn’t mean caring about having kids. It means actually caring about the well-being and health and life of the spouse.

          • anglel

            The comment was made in reference to a single woman with a ton of kids, not to a married couple.

            Secondly, if the guy the single woman is dating at the time is just getting his rocks off, what do you call it if not meaningless rubbing of genitals?

            Third you missed the part in the beginning where I stated this hypothetical woman would be better served with free counseling and trauma therapy (one in three women are abused and suffer from trauma related issues) than free condoms. She would then have enough faith in herself, enough esteem, enough…..determination, to set and meet the goals that would define her success. It is a very rare person that can do this alone, who has gone through abuse, especially as a child.

            You have no idea what my life has been like. I am in recovery from PTSD and major depressive disorder. You really have no idea. I could tell you stories that would make any grown woman want to vomit. It took years before I even knew the difference between being F&(*&^ and being loved. I worked my way up from a gutter so many times (litterally) it would make your head spin. Worked my butt off just to have my PTSD triggered and not be able to go to work again and loose it all. You have NO IDEA.

            I can say with confidence that it has taken allot for me to get to the point where I could love myself enough to say no to anyone but the person who was willing to go the length for our family.

            married people tend to have a little more to work with, at least enough for condoms. You would be surprised what to minimum wage incomes in one household can make possible!

          • 65snake

            “The comment was made in reference to a single woman with a ton of kids, not to a married couple.”
            Maybe you should have said so. You didn’t.

            “Secondly, if the guy the single woman is dating at the time is just
            getting his rocks off, what do you call it if not meaningless rubbing of
            genitals?”
            1) oh, of course, and the woman always knows that, because men don’t lie
            2) what if they are unmarried, but actually serious? then everything I said about married couples stands as well.

            “Third you missed the part in the beginning where I stated this hypothetical woman would be better served”
            No, actually, I did not miss that part, but it was completely cancelled out by the rest of your judgmental, unfeeling post.

            Furthermore, just because someone does not live their life by your personal moral standards is not a reason to deny them the ability to be responsible about their choices.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I will never marry again. I kind of like meaningless rubbing of genitals. You are not my teacher. Quit preaching.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Let me guess–you want to get on the 700 Club, right?

          • fiona64

            Secondly, if the guy the single woman is dating at the time is just
            getting his rocks off, what do you call it if not meaningless rubbing of
            genitals?

            Guess it’s never occurred to you that sometimes women just want to get their rocks off, too …

          • choiceone

            Consider the source. She had five kids and we don’t know who has been paying their way. We don’t know who paid for her prenatal care, her childbirths (which are always pretty expensive where I live), and the children’s care and education. Maybe she’s really just an ignorant rich person or a person who thinks it’s okay to go on welfare with five kids on the government dime.

          • fiona64

            So, the short version of this is “if you don’t want a baby, keep your legs shut”? Because contraception is absolutely fail-safe, including surgical sterilization?

            Educate yourself.

            Oh, and MYOB. If it’s not your sex life, it’s not your decision to make.

          • anglel

            This is the problem with republicans pro-choicers, and americans in general. Everyone thinks they should be allowed to do whatever and not have to deal responsibly with the consequences. People have become so cold hearted that they are unable to see how their actions effect other people, and even when they do they dont care. It sucks that this culture alienates people so much that they feel they have no responsibility to the welfare of their fellow man to the point a person is willing to kill their own child if it suits them…..this is freedom my friend. Every day we get a little closer to the point where no one will have any rights because someone with more money than you will buy your opinion one way or another, then entertain your brain to death…..education…indoctrination….dead babies…

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry but no one is talking about infanticide here. All babies and children have been born. And again, ending a pregnancy is one way of taking responsibility. And I fail to see why you put Republicans in this, as most of them would agree with your anti-choice views and are working to limit women’s reproductive choices.

          • anglel

            I have had five children. I know what week a childs heart starts beating. They breath amniotic fluid. They dance when you listen to music. They kick when they are to hot or to cold. They wake up when you fall asleep and become calm when you rub your belly….A woman holds LIFE inside her. I wish people would stop trying to take that away from our womanhood. WE BEAR LIFE INTO THE WORLD!!! A baby is alive inside the womb and past the second trimester the only differnce is whether its breathing air or amniotic fluid.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No one’s trying to take that away from anyone’s womanhood, but it should be something that’s chosen, not forced upon someone.

          • anglel

            You chose to drive drunk so you chose to run into the sign…….its really not that hard to understand.

            Someone is trying to take our power away because they are trying to say that acting like irresponsible men and killing when we dont like the consequences should be the norm. Men dont understand responsibility, which by its nature takes sacrifice. They want to take away the very thing that makes us women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            A woman is not defined by her ability or desire to have children.

          • anglel

            A woman is defined by her vagina which may uniquely enable her to bear children. Its her responsibility to make sure if she doesnt want kids, that she doesnt get pregnant. Women need to take responsibility for their vaginas and stop hiding behind some mindless pretense that they are somehow victims because of it.

            not wanting to have children, and not doing what is necessary to prevent oneself from concieving them, seem contradictory. Im saying, grow a set of tits, be a woman, and do what is necessary so you dont have to kill your own child.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t seem to listen too well when we say that all forms of birth control, including sterilization procedures, do fail. And ending a pregnancy is a way of ‘taking responsibility’. It’s just not one that you approve of. Which happens to be your problem, and not the problem of the woman who is actually pregnant. See, she has to do what is best for her. Not what is best for you.

          • anglel

            Its not my physical problem, its the unborn childs physical problem. See, I dont benifit or hurt personally either way, but what is a life if it is not lived for the purpose of serving others. I really have no personal stake in this fight other than unborn children need a voice to speak in defence of their right to not be physically afflicted by human actions after they are concieved. Any person should refrain from selfish actions and do what is best for the weaker party

          • choiceone

            A woman is not as easily defined as you seem to think. Genotypic and phenotypic anomalies exist. A vagina does not uniquely enable a woman to bear children, as she may lack a functioning uterus or functioning ovaries.

            I think the important thing is to be an equal person. Womanhood and manhood are highly overrated as long as there are people out there who care more about biology and less about the mind.

          • fiona64

            A woman is defined by her vagina

            No, she isn’t.

          • Ella Warnock

            You’re defined by your vagina, huh? And your breasts, too, apparently. Well hey, if you want to sell yourself short like that, more, um, power to ya. I guess.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You seem to be under the impression that women are not smart or strong enough to make their own reproductive decisions, including when they do or do not want to be pregnant. Again, very patronizing.

          • anglel

            it seems you think women are to stupid to keep from getting pregnant before they concieve, and to weak not to resort to killing the baby if they make a mistake.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Only no one is talking about killing a baby. And all forms of contraception can and do fail.Even tubal ligation can fail. And I think that women are strong enough to make up their own minds and decide what they want to do with their own pregnancy.

          • anglel

            And women will make up their own minds. I cannot support the legality of killing an unborn child. A person with a vagina, and a person without a vagina, will do what it is they feel is right. This is about protecting the rights of unborn children. People with vaginas have a unique ability to grow people inside them. It should not be legal for anyone, not even ther person with the vagina, to kill ther person once it has started growing in the vagina past a certain point.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And by giving full rights to a zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus you are taking rights away from a born woman, basically reducing her to the status of a walking incubator. And the baby grows in the UTERUS, not the vagina.

          • choiceone

            I see. So you are not against all abortion at all. It should be legal to save the life of the woman from a medically diagnosed threat to her life, but not to save her life if doctors failed to diagnose it.

            It should be legal up to a certain point in pregnancy, but not afterward except for that. But why you pick the heartbeat, I have no clue.

            I don’t understand why it would be okay to force her to give birth if that would, according to medical diagnosis, cause her to be paralyzed from the neck down permanently, etc.

            And please stop saying vagina when you’re talking about pregnancy. An embryo is not in a vagina unless it is being aborted. It grows in the uterus.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And again, consent to sex is not consent to babies. It is consent to sex. And sacrifice is only valid when it is willingly given, not forced upon someone.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Choosing to drive does not equal choosing to have a car accident. I will have precisely the number of children I choose to have. No more and no less. I will not be consulting anyone about my choices.

          • fiona64

            I wish people would stop trying to take that away from our womanhood.

            Pro-tip: infertile women, post-fertile women and child-free women? All still have womanhood.

            Just so you know.

          • anglel

            if your infertal, post fertal, or in my case overfertile to the point i wanted to pull my uterous out and throw it at somebeody, and did the next best thing by having my tubes tied, then you dont have to worry about abortion. Having a child or even being able to doesnt make you a woman, any more than breasts or long hair does.

            understanding PMS, hormones, heat flashes, and how to take care of your vagina and the rest of your body, is uniquely a womans lot in life. Thats because (believe it your not) the type of reproductive organs you have determins if your a woman. So, your statement bears no consequence to what I stated previously concernin those who have vaginas like mine. Only a vagina can do it. Not all vaginas do it..they are still vaginas, anything having to do with a vagina should be treated with respect, and protected to the fullest extent of the law.

          • choiceone

            Being a woman is a lot less important than being a person. That’s why birth is a lot more important than the formation of sex organs.

          • Ella Warnock

            PMS, hormones, and hot flashes should be protected to the fullest extent of the law.

            Now there’s a Strategic Vagina Response Unit I’d like to see. Freeze, sucka! Put the tampon down and back away! S-l-o-w-l-y!

            Heeey, I think we’ve got a new Law & Order spinoff.

          • fiona64

            Thats because (believe it your not) the type of reproductive organs you have determins if your a woman.

            Actually, they don’t do any such thing. Your gender is in your brain, not your anatomy.

            anything having to do with a vagina should be treated with respect, and protected to the fullest extent of the law.

            Which is why I believe that no woman should be forced to have an infant issue from her vagina if she doesn’t want to.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A fetus is alive like my arm is alive, it is human, it may be unwanted. Cry me a river.

          • jejune

            if you don’t want your posts to end up in moderation. type ‘s1ut’ with a 1 instead of an l

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thank you.

          • Ella Warnock

            Look, somebody like me who was just. Plain. Never. Interested. is not trying to take anything away from you or anyone else. I can’t even believe we need RH in this day and age. Women who want kids should have them. Those who don’t, shouldn’t; nor should they be shamed or pressured into it because its what SOMEONE ELSE thinks is best for them. It’s time to stop conversing about women’s bodies as if they’re public property.

            I’m a married, 50 yo woman with a 20 yo tubal ligation. My womanhood is in fine shape, thank you very much. I was hoping that the road I traveled would make it easier for the ones who came behind me. Looks like its going to be anything but.

          • choiceone

            I agree. I decided to stop having sex and even stop dating when I went to grad school, because I did not want to deal with the problems of contraception that is not 100% perfect but did not want a tubal ligation. That did not stop me from being a woman, either. I still had to worry about rape until I went through menopause.

            I just wanted to be a woman who could prove to women that, even though it was also okay to have sex, use BC, have an abortion, and have a baby, it was just as okay to say, no, thanks, I don’t want to have sex, don’t want to get pregnant, and don’t want to give birth.

            Some men who asked me out, when told that I did not date, were incredulous, inquisitive, and ultimately so angry that they actually stamped their feet! That is surely at least one of the many reasons I made my experiment lifelong.

            And even though I’ve been celibate for over thirty years and have never been pregnant and never given birth, I’m still a woman as well as a person.

            I think that you and I both made it easier for the ones who came behind us. There are many more of us than there are of her. As a person with five kids, unless she was rich, she was probably too busy to engage much in the kinds of activities through which she could influence many others. I, on the other hand, taught college and tutored and did editing work for many people in college and grad school. And I have converted some people to the pro-choice side, too.

          • anglel

            because republicans like to pass laws that dont take into account how it will effect the lives of those outside of their immediate circle.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Including laws trying to legislate women’s reproductive and contraceptive options.

          • anglel

            Laws against murder are a good thing. When you stop a beating heart your commiting murder… Making it legal dehumanizes the unborn child and the woman….Even though there will be women who do it anyway, a woman should be able to feel safe knowing that her unborn child has rights. That if a woman who wants to be pregnant gets beat, and looses the baby, that the person who beat her isnt just charged with domestic violence, but aggrivated assult at the least with the apex of that being murder. If that unborn child isnt considered legally alive than how does that woman have any legal standing to protect her baby in th womb. Ill give you an example; a woman with child who wants to keep her baby,and has worked overtime to create a nursery corner in her one bedroom apt. The father of the baby is some well to do twerp that doesnt want his name connected with this waitress in the form of offspring now or ever. She is at home, he calls her up to come over so they can “talk about things” he decides to take matters in his own hands and repeatedly punches her in the stomach. She finnaly calls the hospital and a police report is made. The man is charged with domestic violence and sentenced to three days in jail, and a deterrent class. Then its dropped from his record.

            If we dont demand rights for our unborn children, no one will.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So if you think abortion is murder, what do you think should happen, legally, to a woman who has one?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Produce one case in which a doctor or Mother was tried and convicted for murder for having an abortion. I will wait. Otherwise, you can apologize for insulting and lying about any and every woman here who has had an abortion.

          • anglel

            How many white men brutally murderd black men in the 1950s and 1960s. See murder is only a mainstream term when mainstream america decides that what is dying is valuable or human. When blacks werent considered human they would have bon fires and bar b ques and the church would have a good ole time roastin them some N***R so dont act like just because mainstream, violent, insensitive america wants to take the humanity out of being unborn, that I have to cow tow to it in any way, because I will not be party to senseless violence whether against the born or the unborn.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Is a black person attached to me by umbilitical cord and sucking my blood? Ridiculous analogy.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am neither a white nor a black man. I do not give a party when I have an abortion. And if I did, I would not invite you. You skeeve me.

          • fiona64

            See murder is only a mainstream term when mainstream america decides that what is dying is valuable or human

            No, actually, it’s a very clear-cut legal term.

            Murder is the unlawful (illegal) taking of a person’s life with malice aforethought.

            And the word is kowtow.

          • fiona64

            That “example” you came up with wouldn’t even be a good plot for a movie. Don’t quit your day job to become an author, okay?

          • fiona64

            Well, I guess a stopped clock really *is* right twice a day …

          • fiona64

            You really are rather histrionic. No one is talking about infanticide.

            And sometimes? The responsible thing to do is to terminate a pregnancy. And since you don’t know any woman’s circumstances other than your own, it’s not for you to say whether it was or wasn’t.

          • anglel

            you dont even realize that a “fetus” as you call it has a beating heart, can feel pain, and has an opinion on music…… A child isnt an adult, and a baby isnt a child, and a fetus isnt a baby, but all are human, and all should have rights that protect their lives from others. You dont know what I know fiona, so dont act like you do, you dont know what my circumstances are, so dont act like you do. All you know is that a buch of people think its okay to take away the personhood of a fetus, do it in the name of “womens rights” and of course any oppressed group of people are looking for new ways of “empowerment” whether its a line of bull or not. Thats just sociology/psychology my friend.

          • Jennifer Starr

            True. We don’t know what you know. And you don’t know what we know. Or what other women know either. And unless you can carry another woman’s pregnancy for them, and take the resulting risk, you have no right to state what they can and cannot do So stop acting as if you do.

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, I have a 27-year-old son. I assure you, I know what a fetus is.

            you dont know what my circumstances are, so dont act like you do.

            I guess you’ll have to pardon me for finding this statement ironic. You pretend to know the circumstances of all kinds of women you’ve never even met when you demand that they gestate unwanted pregnancies. You assign dispositional attributes to their decision, when the truth is that *all decisions in life* are situational. That’s called the fundamental attribution error in social psychology, “my friend,” and you are a textbook example of it.

            What you would do in a given situation does NOT dictate what another individual would do under those same circumstances. Do you get it? Is that simple enough for you?

            All you know is that a buch of people think its okay to take away the personhood of a fetus,

            A fetus is not a person — but a WOMAN is. You want to take away the personhood of born, sapient, sentient women.

          • anglel

            taking a life is taking a life

          • Jennifer Starr

            So what should happen to the woman who takes that life? What should she be charged with and how much jail time should she do?

          • fiona64

            So, what punishment should post-abortive women receive?

          • anglel

            In many tribes of africa, a child is the responsibility of the whole village to raise. So in protecting the unborn and the born alike, Im just being loyal to my roots. A facious and selfish america couldnt begin to comprehend it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Once a child is born the whole village can raise it. Anyone can take care of a child once it is born. But only one person can be pregnant. And that person’s uterus does not become public property just because it is occupied by a fetus.

          • fiona64

            Okay ….

            I’ll just add “delusional” to the list, then.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m betting that you’ve never even been out of the country, except perhaps maybe to Mexico or Canada.

          • fiona64

            I’m betting that she’s never been more than 50 miles from where she was born, frankly …

          • anglel

            Yes, I actually spent a year in Africa when I was a teen. I went to an expatriate school and was placed in the Maths and Sciences stream. So what do I win?

          • Jennifer Starr

            No prize, just wondering how you managed to skip basic biology and anatomy.

          • anglel

            When I first got pregnant at 17, I was scared. So I got my hands on every book, magazine, pamplet, concerning prenatal care. What to expect when your expecting, prenatal yoga… I even birthed in a birth center, with a midwife.

            I learned about how women were more in tune with their bodies before crusades, colonization, and men interfering with there bs science. I learned that childbirth is natural process, like a flower blooming, that I could in fact talk, sing, read, to my child and it would help her. I learned that childbirth can be one of the most empowering, or devaluing point in a woman’s life. (I said can be, I know there are other things that empower and devalue women).

            Most importantly, I learned that my child was a being seperate and distinct from me, that I had the power to kill or let live. I had the power to make blossom or leave in a decrepit state. That in my position of power I had a decision to make toward this being that would deny it of the life I had given it, or see that life born out. The choice of that responsibility could either make me a powerful bearer of life or a selfish tyrant, unwilling to deal with a situation I myself created.

            I never let one man even look at my vagina during this time. It was a time I surrounded myself with wise, loving, women, who helped me to nurture my unborn child and decried the male dominated medical process it had become.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You do realize that the baby does not grow in the vagina but in the uterus, that the egg is not fertilized in the vagina, but in the fallopian tubes,that just because you like calling every part of the reproductive anatomy a vagina just because you like typing the word does not make it so. Nothing to do with men; these are basic anatomical facts.

          • anglel

            I didnt say that babies grow in the vagina. I said that women have vaginas, and that having a vagina means having responsibilities that come with vaginas, like menstration…

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually it’s the uterus that causes menstruation(correct spelling) The uterine lining and the egg is shed each month. And yes, you did actually try to claim that babies were carried in the vagina–just because you like typing the word, apparently which is about the dumbest thing that I have ever heard.

          • fiona64

            Menstruation. Gawd, please learn how to spell.

            And menstruation is not a “responsibility” that comes with having a vagina. Christ on a bicycle. You claim you were on an honors track in high school science (which I will believe when there’s pork in the treetops) and you don’t even understand menarche?

            Gah.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And incidentally, you do realize that back in those times where you claim that women were so ‘in tune’ with their bodies, that a lot of women died in childbirth and most of their babies were lucky to make it past age five. That the science you decry as ‘bs’ has actually made childbirth safer for women and helped children to be healthier? Or do you regularly have a round of leeches to improve your health?

          • anglel

            so says the anglo-male dominated medical system. Women actually had more problems during birth until more recently because during birth the doctor demanded the woman give birth on her back, that they were vulnerable sick..etc…….. what your calling medical advancement is better nutrition, (any pregnant woman with a craving knows when her baby needs something, her availability to get it is another issue) and c-sections caused by the medical negligence of women’s needs in childbirth. Look up a midwife journal.

            Leeches are post colonization european so called science. You dont know anything about how things were

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually I know quite a bit more about how things were than you do. I actually have read and studied history quite a bit. I also know the difference between ‘your’, which is possessive, and ‘you’re’. I think you like to convince yourself that you’re smarter because you’re ‘not mainstream’ ( oooh, look, I’m so different), but actually your thinking is very simplistic and not very intelligent at all. Sorry.

          • fiona64

            (any pregnant woman with a craving knows when her baby needs something, her availability to get it is another issue)

            No, it’s because pregnancy alters a woman’s taste sensations. No fetus “needs” pickles and ice cream.

          • Jennifer Starr

            There are actually women who develop pica during pregnancy. Cravings are nothing to do with what a baby needs.

          • fiona64

            Don’t be silly; of *course* the fetus needs pencil shavings or cat litter. /snark

          • fiona64

            Interestingly enough, we still use leeches in hand surgery … and obsidian scalpels for some eye surgeries (I found this fascinating). Otherwise, yes … we’ve gone beyond just a few things from the olden days.

          • fiona64

            I learned about how women were more in tune with their bodies before
            crusades, colonization, and men interfering with there bs science.

            Ah, yes. The good old days, when women were lucky to live to age 30, and their children often did not survive to adulthood due to things like measles, smallpox, bubonic plague, etc.

            Those were indeed halcyon times.

            never let one man even look at my vagina during this time.

            Well, I hope you had a female physician, then.

          • fiona64

            Oh. That explains why you like to pretend you’re African.

            Okay.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. I will have hot earth shaking sex. So many men, so little time. I will use contraception I get from the ACA for no copay. If I get pregnant, I will gestate or abort as I see fit. Not as YOU see fit.

          • jejune

            I am glad you finally made your way here Plum:P

            I used to post at Pandagon back in the day, and I remember you from there :)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Thanks for the welcome. Glad to find a bunch of intelligent and fierce feminists to hang with.

          • jejune

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/08/and-you-wonder-why-i-see-the-right-as-anti-woman.html#comment-1056680371

            Please..visit us here as well. We are dealing with one particularly annoying poster ‘myintx’ who repeatedly asserts that women who abort are selfish s1uts.

          • anglel

            No one does anything as I see fit. I would ask that you take second to pause and understand that you have a beating heart inside you. The earth can shake until you fall to your knees. I dont know you, but from what you say I imagine your very beautiful, talented, and powerful. You deserve love. You were made to be loved. No matter how many men you let into your body, you wont have it until you find that love for yourself. You deserve someone who accepts you for who you are, can keep up with your libido, and loves only you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Can you possibly be any more preachy and patronizing?

          • anglel

            probably not…..

          • Jennifer Starr

            Okay, you tell me, then.

          • anglel

            Well think about it. When are women not objectified sexually? I was taking a college course in psychology,and one of the topics we covered was evolutionary psychology. They did some studies that found that the vast majority of men only have women friends they would have sex with. Another study found that the first thing a guy thinks when he is talking to a woman is wether or not she is attractive. All of his other decisions about how he communicates is based off of that. Call me crazy, but as a feminist I wish to be judged on my merits as a person, not how attractive I am. I dont like that kind of attention at all. When I attempt to avoid it, it gets ignored. A woman has to play on sex to get ahead in life…..thats bogus. So now that us women are willing to be objectified, now the guys have to figure out a way to deal with all the “unwanted children” that pop up as a result of their pushing their objectification on to us. They frame it as a woman right to choose, and make it look colorful,pretty, easy, and straight forwardno looking back, and now women are like “yea it should be legal for women to stop the beating hearts that they took part in concieving. (rape excluded of course),because the ability to kill is the ultimate empowerment! And then even passing the line that, the baby isnt really “alive” till it comes out of the womb. Like there is just a dead lump in our body that is growing randomly, because nothing could ever be ALIVE inside of a WOMAN because we are the epitemy of evil. And somehow we are buying this hook line and sinker. Even our most beautiful, graceful, and proud, have been duped by this misogonistic society in one way or another. (I know I spelled it wrong,sorry)

          • Jennifer Starr

            What about abusive and controlling men who will sabotage or hide a woman’s birth control so that she will get pregnant and have his baby, giving him another method with which to trap her and exert his power over her?

          • anglel

            contraception should not be hidden, nor should it be sabatoged. pregnancy isnt really a way to control a woman, since the man has no rights to the child unless the mother gives it to him

          • Jennifer Starr

            Not if he’s her abusive husband–that happened to my cousin. And then he held her there by threatening to sue for custody and take the kids away–or kidnap and harm their child. It’s called pregnancy coercion. Here’s a link http://abcnews dot go dot com/Health/Wellness/domestic-abuse-abusive-men-sabotage-birth-control/story?id=9639340

          • anglel

            You record him saying that, ask her cousin for a safe place to crash till she gets on her feet, and file papers at the court keeping her away from the baby. Her only option isnt stopping the beating heart inside her. Its not fair that she has to resent her own child because the only options that people want to push is stopping the beating heart of an unborn child and ending his life….thats not fair. If they are married more was holding her there than being pregnant. Dont put it off on the baby like its some magical factor of the equation. When did it become okay to get back at abusive idiots we werent going to leave anyway by killing a developing baby.

            She has rights and other options. The baby can be given up for adoption, she can live with you (since its your cousin) and file for divorce based on domestic violence and abuse by her spouse, after recording him on the phone. Better yet call the cops when he is acting like a fool. There are other ways to handle the situation that actually put the abuser in their place, rather than taking an action that doesnt make him take responsibility for his abuse.

          • Jennifer Starr

            This was a long time ago, this child is four now and her father is out of her life, but really, you’re making it out to be a lot more simple than it actually is.. For one thing you’re assuming that she actually wanted to leave–she was so beaten down by this guy and isolated from us that she thought she deserved it. It wasn’t until she actually got out from underneath him that she saw straight. And adoption? In most states you need the legal father’s permission for the adoption to go through. But really. For someone who claims to have been through what you’ve been through, you should know that nothing in real life is ever that simple.

          • fiona64

            You record him saying that, ask her cousin for a safe place to crash till she gets on her feet, and file papers at the court keeping her away from the baby.

            Thanks for your simplistic perspective on domestic violence. Abusers like to keep their victims childed; it makes it harder for them to leave. You really need to educate yourself on the realities of DV and stop living in some blissfully ignorant fantasyland.

            A friend of mine got away from her abuser with her two kids. The court *ordered her to go back and tell him where she was* because her estranged husband (who had been jailed twice for domestic violence) went to court and claimed parental alienation. Two weeks later, she was *dead.* This whole “she should just leave” thing is simplistic nonsense uttered by those who have never experienced DV.

            Oh, and in case you don’t believe me: http://www.childcustody.org/childcustody2/_disc125/00001126.htm and http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33847 are just two of the links that discuss the case.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Wrong. In 31 states a rapist, after he has served his time, can sue for visitation and get it.

          • choiceone

            That is not true. Yes, it is possible for a single woman to claim that she does not know who the biofather is. But a man can demand the right to a blood test of the born infant to see if he is the genetic father, and if he is, he can demand rights and responsibilities as a legal father. Some states actually allow a rapist who gets a woman pregnant to have visitation rights if she gives birth. And if you are married, your husband is the legal father of any child to whom you give birth and has a legal father’s rights and responsibilities.

          • Jennifer Starr

            An awful lot of gender stereotypes here–this is starting to sound like some of the tripe that I hear they’re pushing in the abstinence only classes. Just for the record–I also note a man’s attractiveness when I meet him. I happen to like good-looking guys. Finding the opposite sex attractive is not exclusive to men. I am also a fairly attractive woman and I have had many male friends over the years, most of whom have not even asked me out on a date, let alone tried to get me between the sheets. And for the record, if I ever get pregnant and choose to have an abortion, it will be my choice, It will not be because some man or evil doctor tricked me into it. Because you seem to be under the assumption that women are too dumb to make their own decisions or to know what ending a pregnancy means.

          • anglel

            Im just talking about what was discussed im my psychology class. If its not true, find a bunch of ugly women working in the private sector in the front office. Just because they havent asked you for whatever reason, doesnt mean they dont deem you attractive in that they would if…….everyone has the choice to kill, no law can take that away from you. That doesnt mean that it needs to be legal.

          • Jennifer Starr

            For one thing, what is ugly and what is pretty is a completely subjective thing.Some women seem to find Dr. Oz attractive, I don’t see it. I find Judge Reinhold attractive–not everyone does. I find Roger Howarth, Bruce Boxleitner and Isaiah Mustafa attractive too–again, not everybody. I think that Robbie Coltrane has a personality and talent that despite his size and appearance, makes him extremely attractive. And frankly, not being telepathic, I don’t actually give a shit whether a male friend of mine is thinking of having sex with me or not. Unless they are actively trying to hit on me, it doesn’t affect me in the slightest. I don’t even know what we’re talking about here, quite frankly,

          • anglel

            For an accurate indicator of what the mainstream deems as beautiful go to the front office of your local law firm…thats “pretty”…go to a call center call floor….that’s “ugly” (there are exceptions, pretty girls with low self esteem)…..

            I guess I am sensitive to that kind of thing, so it bothers me. I dont think most women are though.

            I think the point was objectification of women and its psychological effect on how we view who we are as women. .

          • fiona64

            Wow. Stereotype much?

          • Jennifer Starr

            So if you don’t think it needs to be legal and that it is killing, what criminal penalty do you think that a woman who has an abortion should face?

          • anglel

            see reply above

          • jejune

            heh, so she thinks abortion is murder only…it should be illegal..but not punishable as murder

            typical

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, apparently it’s a ‘different’ type of murder.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you.

            Frederica Mathewes-Green:

            “No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg.”

          • anglel

            are women really demonizing the ability to bring forth life? Usually in history it has been man who has both dreaded and feared this ability, to the point they want to controll it anyway they can. Now they want to be assured that the unborn child has no rights so any idiot can punch a pregnant womans stomach, causing her to miscarry and all he will be charged with is domestic violence.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            A fetus gains all the rights and duties of legal personhood when it survives birth.

          • anglel

            So say your pregnant and a guy that doesnt want you to be pregnant. He can punch you in your stomach, make you loose your baby against your will, and the only thing he can be charged for is assult, no matter how far along you are…. because the beating heart of a child inside a woman doesnt deserve personhood in your eyes, and their right to live should not be protected by law……

          • choiceone

            Actually, that is not true. The UVVA allows him to be charged on a federal level with both assaulting the woman and causing the miscarriage, but it can’t be used against a doctor or a woman in the case of an abortion to which the woman voluntarily consented.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m sorry to burst your little rose-colored womanhood=motherhood bubble here, but not every woman wants a baby. Not every woman wants to be pregnant or wants to be a mommy. Not every woman is going to get gooey and misty when she holds a baby. And birth control fails. And women who don’t want to be pregnant will find a way to end their pregnancies, whether legally or self-induced or through some back-alley butcher, but they will. As long as pregnancy has existed , there have been attempts and ways found by women to either prevent pregnancies or to end them. This has not changed. It will not change. I know you’d like to think that every woman who has an abortion is being led astray by men and/or doctors, but we can actually think for ourselves, you know.

          • jejune

            You’re only saying that cuz you’re a pro-death s1ut!!!

          • anglel

            Most americans dont even know what that means..work and consume, thats the apitamy of life…right! Little less of the work, do what is popular, take the side of those with the loudest voice, and watch the game…..who really thinks for themselves when the information on is givien is limited in scope and without all the fanfare. Both women and men are duped about the meaning of their lives.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Surely the meaning of anyone’s life is what they wish it to be. Contrary to what you might think, biology does equal destiny. And the word you’re thinking of is epitome.

          • anglel

            you said biology equals destiny……in the sense that if your born a cat your not going to ever qualify for Harvard law school. Or if your born a man you will never be able to give birth. Yet you state the meaning of ones life is what they wish it to be, yet many are not given a choice. Most are only given a choice of following the mainstream or being ridiculed as the odd one out.

            Public school curriculum is designed to indoctrinate children into accepting authority and conforming to mainstream expectations. From a young age we are told what to feel, what to think, not to think to much, and how to act. We are taught that it is good to believe one thing and do another.

            We are immersed in a media culture that hires psychologist to create the most influential marketing advertisement campeigns possible, and tv shows which act as a mainstay of life and how we should live it. Ideological thinking would wish that one had the power to destine for him or herself the life that he or she wishes, but reality states that without a realization of the external influences on a persons thoughts, feelings, and actions, a person is no more free in his thinking than a puppet. Thank you for the correction on epitome.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Read again. I said that biology does not equal destiny, which has nothing to do with cats going to Harvard or men giving birth. What I mean is that the fact that a woman possesses a uterus does not mean that she needs, wants or has to have a baby. And the rest of what you’re spouting about public education indoctrination, television I hardly watch and ‘the mainstream’–whatever that may be and the rest sounds like a bunch of conspiracy theory/Alex Jones type rubbish that you most likely picked up at whatever church/cult you were converted into. But if you’re thinking that I’ve been ‘indoctrinated’ into being pro-choice, you should know that when I attended public school some twenty-odd years ago, i was actually ‘pro-life’. Then I graduated and grew up.

          • anglel

            I thought that is what you meant, which is why I stated it the way I did. The biology of a cat makes it impossible for him to do the biological things necessary for it to go to Harvard, or kindergarten for that matter. The biology of a man would have it that no matter how he felt, he would never be destined to give birth. So to a certain extent biology does help forge the options in your destiny.

            You should look up articles in google scholar about indoctrination in education, peer reviewed journal articles which im sure your familiar with. Funny enough the ideals Alex Jones and my church are completely different. There are only about four things my church and I agree on, and one of them is that once a heart starts beating no one should have a legal right to stop it.

            If you dont see mainstream culture, its probably because your in it. Ask Pepsi how they develop their add campaigns, or Microsoft. The truth is they hire psychologists. Dont take my word for it, read a few articles from peer reviewed journals on google scholar. The reason I know about it is because I majored in psychology. It was in my text book. You would be surprised what the power of positive reinforcement can get people to do, think, feel , and believe.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And this has do do with abortion how? You have a very rambling style, writing-wise, and it really would be better if you simply knew how to just get to the point. But I’m getting this attitude from you that because I don’t share your views I must be some poor little media brainwashed minion. Again, both patronizing and condescending.

          • choiceone

            The biology of a mentally retarded child makes it impossible for him or her to do the biological things necessary for it to go to Harvard, and those who have IQs of 20 to 25, which is considerably less than the average chimpanzee, require 24/7 supervision and care. So what?

            Forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy she does not want to have and did not specifically consent to beforehand IS RAPE. The person who bans legal abortion is using the force of law to prevent her from removing from her sex organs an entity that did not get consent to be there. How is that not rape?

          • fiona64

            If you never want to have children have your tubes tied.

            And, has already been explained to you with *excruciating patience,* even surgical sterilization (like, you know, tubal ligation) can *and does* fail. In fact, the failure rate is 2-10 per 1000 women. Furthermore, it is actually extremely difficult to obtain a surgical sterilization; many physicians will not perform the on women under 30, or with fewer than three children.

            You need to educate yourself on the matter. http://sogc.org/publications/tubal-ligation-female-surgical-sterilization/

          • fiona64

            I think what’s she’s really saying (between the lines) is that she’s some kind of anti-choice “libertarian” …

          • Jennifer Starr

            And additionally, I don’t think you really understood what I meant, since your rambling reply has very little to do with what I actually wrote.

          • fiona64

            Epitome.

            Gah. I really can barely read what you post because of the rampant grammatical errors.

          • anglel

            sorry typing on a smart phone doesnt make me feel very smart!

          • fiona64

            I completely understand! I spend a lot of time yelling “damn you, autocorrect!” myself.

          • anglel

            also jennifer, not every man thinks that it is wrong to kill someone because they make you mad and reguardless of the law people are still going to z kill people when it suits them to, with a knife, off a cliff, with a gun, behind a flag…thats not going to change either, that doesnt mean that murder should be legal…

          • Jennifer Starr

            You’re not even making sense anymore. And it’s spelled.regardless.

          • fiona64

            Could you parse this into English? It’s a little … psychotic-looking.

          • anglel

            sorry, what I meant was that there are men who feel there is nothing wrong with killing someone you dont like, or killing someone because they made you mad. Even though there are laws against murder, they still commit them. Just because murder occurs irrespective to laws against it does not mean there is justifiable cause to legalize murder. In the same vein just because some women will still choose to stop their child’s beating heart, does not mean abortion should be legal. That arguement is not logical in the least.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You still haven’t answered the question of what you think the legal penalty for abortion should be.

          • anglel

            I was getting to that. A woman that has chosen to stop the beating heart of the child within her has already paid a great penalty. My ideological self would suggest a mandatory support and self-esteem group/class. Though knowing how the system works I doubt the govt would be wiling to pay for a woman qualified to teach it in an effective way. Its not fair to blame the woman. Its hard enough feeling powerless and vulnerable without being (fill in the blank with any number of situations women go through) and pregnant.

            The burden should be on those who enable it. How can someone watch tiny little hands, and feet, dismembered and bloody coming out of a woman, knowing that they are responsible, and return to work the next day. Many use ultrasound so they dont hurt the woman and watch the baby getting dismembered. I had my fist sonogram at 12 weeks, one at 21 weeks, and one at 41 (i was late) In all of them I could see my babies head, an arm, a leg. the 12 week one looked admittedly like an alien, but the 21 week one looked very much like a baby. I got a picture of my baby sucking his thumb,,,,,, I dont understand how someone could kill those little ones for a living.

            The biological sperm donor should be fined in cases of abuse or abandonment of child and mother. The fines used to pay for self-esteem classes for young girls, and reproductive health education classes.

            When your baby kicks you so hard you think your going to puke,,,you know the baby is alive inside of you. You know how it got there…and, truth be told you want it out sometimes. We cant make it legal though, we cannot condone the willful stopping of a beating heart.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So, you don’t actually think it’s murder.

          • anglel

            Of course, stopping anyone’s beating heart is murder. However, due to the psychological effects pregnancy hormones can have, any woman could rightfully plead insanity, and in so doing, not be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

          • anglel

            Another acceptable plea that would decriminalize the crime for the woman would be self-defense, because she felt her life was threatened by the baby, and in such cases she would be acquitted.

            the same goes if she killed someone else. After all, if a grown man following a 17 year old boy down the street can get away with it, a pregnant woman should too, her own child or not. Easy self defense case.

          • fiona64

            Of course, stopping anyone’s beating heart is murder.

            Tell that to every cardiologist in the world …

          • fiona64

            In the same vein just because some women will still choose to stop their
            child’s beating heart, does not mean abortion should be legal.

            I don’t bother with histrionics, just so you know. Peripheral appeals to emotion are wasted on me; I’ve been in the medical field for too long to deal in anything but *facts.*

            You don’t know why any given woman makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy — you can’t. You don’t get to decide what “some women” can and cannot do. That’s just the way it is.

            Pregnancy is not a state of wellness. You need to read up on the case of “Beatriz” in El Salvador, who almost died because she needed to terminate a pregnancy — the fetus was anencephalic. There was never going to be a “baby.” Yet, the government of El Salvador, which is pretty much an anti-choice wet dream, punishes both post-abortive women and physicians who perform abortions with up to 50 years in prison. She was ultimately able to get an abortion with help from some international aid groups, but her health has been permanently compromised: her lupus was aggravated and she now has kidney disease … all because of a pregnancy that went on far longer than it should have. (To add to the creepy factor, apparently a bunch of anti-choicers went to bug Beatriz in the hospital to try to convince her to gestate — by bringing her baby clothes, including knitted caps. That’s particularly disturbing given the anencephaly.)

            That’s what happens to real, born, sapient, sentient women when the anti-choice get their way, Anglel.

            Just something to think about.

          • jejune

            All animals give birth its nothing special sweetcheeks.

            You and your kind pretend to put women on a pedestal so you can subjugate them into the forced role of motherhood.

            It’s SICK.

          • anglel

            accepting that sex makes babies isnt forcing a woman to be a mother….its making it illegal to stop a beating heart once it has formed.

          • choiceone

            First, sex does not make babies. There is a very low chance of getting and staying pregnant even if one has sex without contraception. And it is possible to make a baby without sex by having IVF.

            Second, scientific estimates on spontaneous abortion/miscarriage vary, but it is usually considered that as many as 75% of all zygotes/morulae/blastocysts/very early implanted embryos are spontaneously aborted before the woman even knows she’s pregnant.

            Third, most people are not that impressed by the beating of the heart of an embryo, as the embryonic stage is the stage of organogenesis and the process of organogenesis is not finished at that point. That’s why sufficient lung development that a fetus would, if removed, have a chance of being able to breathe air and survive without the woman is considered more important by more people who are educated.

          • anglel

            ever see how most people react to an abused puppy, yet with your reasoning human life is meaningless I guess…

          • jejune

            would you let someone abuse a puppy if you could save one zygote somewhere on this earth?

          • anglel

            if you would save the puppy over saving a child, what kind of person are you?

          • jejune

            Answer my question.

            And yes, I would save a puppy from abuse before I would save a MICROSCOPIC ZYGOTE.

          • anglel

            A zygote does not as yet have a beating heart, so yes I would agree that I would save the puppy.

            You didnt answer my question. Throughout my argument I have maintained that a beating heart is the indicator of life.

            Let me rephrase my question then; if you would save a puppy over a human child with a beating heart what kind of person are you?

          • jejune

            An embryo the size of a peanut doesn’t have a ‘beating heart’.

            It’s a tube of cardiac tissue.

            Btw, cardiac tissue can ‘beat’ while in the petri dish:P

            And yes, I would save the puppy over the non-sentient non-sapient peanut sized embryo that doesn’t even know it exists.

            Personhood resides in the brain, not the heart, you ignorant fuckwit.

          • anglel

            wow, you used those words not me. says allot about you. 12 weeks is when they can tell the gender of an unborn baby. Mine didnt like the vibration of the sonogram and would always try to move opposite of the reader thingy. I could feel him flip when his favorite kind of music was on. Imagine that, its still his favorite. He liked to move the most when i was still, and he really didnt like peppers and hot food because he would flutter so bad I would get worried.

            I doubt you have brought a baby to term, nor have you studied the psychology of consciousness at a reputable institution, so your not qualified to say whether or not a 12 week old unborn baby knows it exists, any more than the puppy.

            It is obvious that you simply hate humanity all together and find pleasure from the idea that somewhere in this country a little one inch arm just got torn from its body…as long as its not a puppy right?

            indeed you have stated exactly what you are.

          • jejune

            1) the fetus is under sedation in the womb

            2) the brain is not yet developed enough for it to be *aware* and *conscious* of it’s environment. the structures do not yet exist that would enable it to interact with it’s environment.

            You’re full of so much shit.

            It is obvious that you simply hate humanity all together and find
            pleasure from the idea that somewhere in this country a little one inch
            arm just got torn from its body…as long as its not a puppy right?

            Oh, aren’t you just precious. Because I value the right of women to not be treated as livestock, you have to accuse me of hating all of humanity.

            No, I just happen to dislike dumbfucks such as yourself who don’t know the first goddamn thing about science and who looove to accuse pro-choicers of engaging in ‘baby torture’ because it’s the only argument you have.

            Grow up.

          • fiona64

            Mine didnt like the vibration of the sonogram and would always try to move opposite of the reader thingy.

            At 12 weeks’ gestational age, fetii are incapable of deliberate movement. Response to noxious stimuli is not a conscious decision. Pithed frogs respond to noxious stimuli.

            so your not qualified to say whether or not a 12 week old unborn baby knows it exists, any more than the puppy.

            Yeah, actually, we do know that. A fetus at 12 weeks’ gestation lacks the physiological capacity for consciousness. Even year-old *infants* lack self-awareness. That’s why the “Terrible twos” happen; children start to recognize themselves as separate from others and want to exercise some of that recognition.

            Please, dear, don’t try to tell people who obviously have far more education than yourself what we are or not qualified to know … especially when you cannot differentiate between a possessive and a declarative (the correct form would have been “you’re”).

          • fiona64

            A zygote is not a “child.” A puppy is a born creature that feel. Puppies over zygotes for me, every time.

          • fiona64

            all he will be charged with is domestic violence.

            As a survivor of domestic violence, I would like to thank you for your dismissive attitude about everything entailed in those two words.

            *Your* misogyny is showing.

          • anglel

            I am too! Several times over. When a guy gets charged with it, its a slap on the wrists. A night in jail, a fine, maybe an anger management class. Im not the one that made the stupid law.

            When I was getting the crap beat out of me by the drunken idiot I loved him and I thought he loved me, we would work it out somehow and the last thing we needed was the law interfering….Im sure Im not the only one who felt like that (dv class at a dv shelter) and so getting charges to stick is hard and, honestly, when has a man, as a rule, ever been justly punished for crimes against a woman unless he killed her.

            So yea I have a dismissive attitude about it, because if I didnt dismiss it out of my life, no one else was going to. Time and time again I had it drilled into my head it was my fault I was getting beat,,,,because I stayed, and the law didnt really give a crap.

          • fiona64

            A “dismissive attitude” doesn’t mean you “dismiss it out of your life.” It means you are acting like it is no big deal.

          • jejune

            I wouldn’t objectify you with a strap-on

          • anglel

            ive tried that…doesnt work….lol

          • fiona64

            Um, sweetie? Women are smart enough to make their own reproductive decisions. And “womanhood” and “femininity” are not dependent upon childbirth.

            And:
            Misogyny.
            Epitome.

            You’re welcome

          • fiona64

            Well, that’s something of a relief … because if you become any more preachy and patronizing, I’m afraid I’ll have to vomit.

          • anglel

            youll probably vomit after your binge anyway…just saying…you have the attitude….

          • Jennifer Starr

            Tell me–have you always been this obnoxious or did it come on after the religious conversion? Just wondering.

          • anglel

            I was born this way! My church cant even stand me because I rant about the wrongs of the republican party. I hate groupthink. When a person belongs to a group of people, it creates a platform for those well rehursed in rhetoric. I dont go by whether someone is likeable to determine if they are right or wrong. I compare what they are saying and doing to my values. If that doesnt line up, I call BS. If it does, Im all for it. But that doesnt mean Im going to dig in with the next thing, without testing that as well. Groups dont like me. People love me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Well, once upon a time, in high school in the late ’80s when you were still a youngster, I used to belong to the so-called pro-life group. Then I started to look at issues, and read, and look at the things that ‘pro-lifer’s’ did and said and that’s when I realized that the world was not nearly as black and white as I thought it was. And that the decision over what to do with a pregnancy should be left to the person who is actually pregnant. As I said, I grew up.

          • anglel

            Im 30 now. Ive had five kids, gone through hell and come out of it by the grace of God. I have learned that evil will always make up the best excuses of why its the right thing. So I have had to simplify things, so that I know where I stand.

            Dont insult people, cuss at people, or try to hurt them to make yourself bigger
            Dont Steal

            Dont kill
            Dont lie
            Dont Cheat-because when you do, it hurts others.

            Take a deep breath, calm down and think
            Are my actions the actions of love in my highest ideal
            If there not, how can I change it.

            Follow your destiny, free your mind, define yourself independently

            Its okay for me to wish I could take all the hurt away.
            Its okay for me to try.

            If it doesnt follow this list, im not down. If it goes against one thing on this list, I speak out against it. Because I care.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hate to tell you this, but most people actually do define themselves independently–that’s not exactly a unique trait. And no matter how much you want everything in the world to be simple and black and white, it won’t be just because you desire it to be. I used to think this way when I was a teenager, but then, as I said, I grew up. Are you sure you’re thirty?

          • fiona64

            She’s never had the opportunity to grow up; she’s too busy makin’ baybees.

          • Ella Warnock

            Thirty going on 13.

          • fiona64

            I’m 30 now. Ive had five kids

            No wonder you’re mad at women who’ve gone out and seen some of the world, and learned to think for themselves; you’ve never had the opportunity to do any of that because you’re too busy birthin’ babies.

            Your choice, of course, but I sure as hell wouldn’t want your life.

          • Ella Warnock

            Word.

          • jejune

            You sound like you’re upset that other women aren’t tied down as broodmares like you.

            Because that’s all you are.

            A broodmare.

          • fiona64

            I compare what they are saying and doing to my values. If that doesnt line up, I call BS.

            Just a little hint? Your values are yours — and that’s as it should be. Your values are *not* universal and therefore do not apply to anyone but you.

          • anglel

            You should have seen me when I was into LaVey and all that…
            I wasnt even nice about not agreeing then.

          • fiona64

            I have to wonder how much of Anton Szandor LaVey’s work you actually studied …

            The year that he died, we were studying LaVey in an anthro class. It was the opinion of our professor (and, actually, also of LaVey) that most people who studied him did not “get” what he was about … although (IMO) Kazantzakis came pretty close to getting it in “The Last Temptation of Christ.”

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m betting she didn’t study any of it–she just wants us to think of her as being ‘edgy’. Also, a lot of religious types like to get off on pretending that they were satanists once–like Mike Warnke. It makes your conversion testimony more colorful.

          • fiona64

            The other reason I know she’s full of crap is that she tried to trot out the Wiccan Rede … after talking about her Christian church. I guess she’s going to try tying Wicca to LaVey … at which point, I will hurt her feelings pretty badly.

          • fiona64

            You really are full of absurd assumptions, aren’t you?

          • anglel

            either way I meant what I said so…..If I saw you walking down the street I would probably think to myself, even if just for a second, she is so beautiful, I wish I looked like that.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Thank you, but if you’re trying to make an assumption about how I’m choosing to lead my personal life, I can tell you right off the bat that you’re probably way off base.

          • anglel

            Im not assuming anything except that your beautiful, talented,and powerful… Thats all Im implying about your personal life.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Right. I’m also single, not dating at the moment, childless, a writer, part-time nanny,a bookworm, and leading a pretty quiet life. Romance is not in my life but I’m certainly open to it. Difference is, I’m not demanding that others have to live the way that I choose to or making judgments about them if they don’t.

          • anglel

            I never demanded that anyone do anything. People will do what they think is right reguardless of any “law”. But the law should always be on the side of protecting the beating heart. But I guess now days its legal to kill who ever you want as long as its “self defense”

          • Jennifer Starr

            So, stop avoiding the question then. What do you think should be the legal penalty for a woman who has an abortion?

          • anglel

            I answered as soon as I saw it. Sorry, allot of posts to keep up with…..

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I would ask you to kiss my Royal Canadiam Ass. Because of the movies and romance novels, I spent a long time pursuing your rosy dream. What a waste of energy. Laughing at you.

          • anglel

            I know…it sucks…… The world has me jaded in a way, because I dont see how people get so much pleasure out of causing so much hurt. Being like the assholes (excuse my french) doesnt make you better than them. You were already better than them, and thats why its so hard to find that one….P.S. Im not so arrogant that I would not take you up on that offer if it would get you to the point where you at least admit that you deserve better. Mr. Right or not!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No thank you. Why buy the whole pig when all you need is 7 ounces of sausage.

          • anglel

            Pig meat is full of parasites and crap….better to have grass fed beef, and with something that good and wholesome, you want the whole cow!

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Why by the whole steer when all I want is its pizzle?

          • Ella Warnock

            I’ve got a freezer full of both. Lucky me.

          • fiona64

            Aw, isn’t that cute? You’re a “The Rules” girl.

            Funny, some of us manage to have healthy relationships without resorting to silly head games.

          • anglel

            Most people do it automatically without even knowing it. Your probably better at “the head games” than I could ever be. I have to think about each and every thought process I have before I draw a conclusion on anything, I dont have “gut instincts”. I dont like something “just because”. I dont read body language subconciously and I dont respond subconciously. I have to actively enguage in monitoring both my perception and my reaction.

            Im glad you have healthy relationships…I doubt your authenticity however, because you find it hard to hold a conversation without insulting someone.

          • fiona64

            I doubt your authenticity however, because you find it hard to hold a conversation without insulting someone.

            When the first post you made was insulting every pro-choice individual by calling them murderers, selfish, etc., well, I guess you’ll pardon me for finding this remark on your part ironic.

          • jejune

            *should be*

            Doesn’t mean is, or will be, or will ever be

            Dumbass.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            You want narcissists to be responsible for their lives, the decisions they make and the effect they have on others?

            They’re more liable to try and rip you to shreds for spouting such heresy … oops … too late …

            he hehe heh e :)

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t think that someone who has actually had the nerve to compare his sorry self to Jesus has any room to go around calling others narcissists.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            “A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone that is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher.” -Luke 6:40

            “To this [course] {I was} called, because even Christ suffered for {me}, leaving {me} a model for {me} to follow his steps closely.” -1 Peter 2:21 (Braces mine.)

          • Jennifer Starr

            It’s really a wonder that you’re able to squeeze your enormous ego through the front door each morning. No wonder your wife left you.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            I see what you’re saying. Patterning my life after the greatest man who ever lived is just sheer arrogance …

          • Jennifer Starr

            Only you haven’t. You’ve patterned your life on worshiping yourself and seeing yourself as Christlike when you’re about as far from that as you could possibly be.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Do tell, what does an Atheist know about being a sedulous Christian?

          • Jennifer Starr

            You could try asking an Atheist. But, trust me, it doesn’t take a Christian to see how puffed-up and arrogant you are. It’s quite evident to anyone with eyes.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            But I am asking an Atheist.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Nope, sorry. Wrong answer.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Agnostic?

          • Jennifer Starr

            Play again? You might win the washer/dryer combo this time.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Regardless, I’m still very keen on finding out how a non-Christian (or is it anti-Christ), such as yourself, knows anything about being a sedulous Christian.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Could ask you the same thing, since I’m fairly sure that the only being you worship is Joey Polanco.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            LOL, nothing could be further from the truth. As my Teacher before me, “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.” -John 7:16,17 (cf. Matthew 28:19,20)

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yeah, it’s kind of easy to see why you’re no longer married.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            How so?

          • choiceone

            As I said again, the proof that you actually have faith in Jesus Christ and the works that he did will be that you can do the works that he did and even greater works, by his own word. But Jesus Christ did not tell anyone that voluntary induced abortion was a sin, did not classify it as killing a human being (because in Jesus’ day, Judaic law considered only the born to be nephesh and thus victims of the killing of a human being and Jesus believed in Judaic law), but did successfully demonstrate the instantaneous spiritual healing of ilnesses and disabilities. So the truth is that all your preachy judging of others really sounds not very Christlike to this person who loves reading the Gospels. The Christian Science Church is just about the only Christian church that focuses on the mission of such spiritual demonstrations, and it actually has a pretty good record on this compared to other churches. Nonetheless, it has refused to take any official stance on abortion, as Jesus Christ himself did not take any stance on it.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            You are mistaken. This is what ancient Jewish law actually said:

            Exodus 21:22,23

            וְכִֽי־ יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשָּׁ֤ה הָרָה֙ וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון עָנֹ֣ושׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃
            וְאִם־ אָסֹ֖ון יִהְיֶ֑ה וְנָתַתָּ֥ה נֶ֖פֶשׁ תַּ֥חַת נָֽפֶשׁ׃
            New International Version
            “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,”

            New Living Translation
            “Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life,”

            New World Translation
            “And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul”

            English Standard Version
            “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,”

            New American Standard Bible
            “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,”

            Holman Christian Standard Bible
            When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. If there is an injury, then you must give life for life,”

            International Standard Version
            “If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides. If there is harm, then you are to require life for life,”

            NET Bible
            “If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,”

            GOD’S WORD® Translation
            “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman’s husband to demand. If anyone is injured, the offender must pay a life for a life,”

            Jubilee Bible 2000
            If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that she aborts but without death, he shall be surely punished according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay by the judges. And if there is death, then thou shalt pay life for life,”

            American Standard Version
            And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,”

            World English Bible
            “If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman’s husband demands and the judges allow. But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,”

            So you see, with a basic understanding of Hebrew and with the aid of accurate renderings in English, it’s patent that Jehovah God places such high a value on innocent human life that even the manslaughter of a child in utero was punished with death in ancient Israel.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            “Woe to YOU [] hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”

            “Woe to YOU [] hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in.” -Matthew 23:27,28,13 (Brackets mine.)

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Here is Christ’s stance on the immoral and ‘premeditated killing of a human being by another’:

            “Out of the heart come wicked reasonings, murders[.] These are the things defiling a man.” -Matthew 15:19,20 (Bracket mine.)

          • fiona64

            Here’s everything Jesus ever said about abortion, which was known and practiced during his time: ” “

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Atheists usually know more than most Christians. They have investigated and found the concept of God wanting.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Their loss.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            One cannot miss what one does not want.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            I said “their loss,” not “their regret.” Is English not your native tongue?

          • fiona64

            Again, you presume that anyone who doesn’t believe exactly as you do is an atheist.

            What a jejune assessment.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Well, if you are trying to be like Christ, you are failing miserably.

          • jejune

            Sorry things didn’t go well for you over at Patheos:(

            You are a regular at Rawstory, right? I posted there a couple of weeks ago and stopped cuz a mod got pissy with me for accusing a pro-liar of being a dumbfuck.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Me too. I am fairly regular as RS. Sorry that happened. Mostly they are pretty laid back there.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            This, from an antichrist …

            Sutor, ne ultra crepidam.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            He said we ought to quicken and enliven our faith. It was lamentable we
            had so little. Instead of taking faith for the rule of their conduct,
            men amused themselves with trivial devotions which changed daily. He said
            that faith was sufficient to bring us to a high degree of perfection. We
            ought to give ourselves up to God with regard both to things temporal
            and spiritual and seek our satisfaction only in the fulfilling of His
            will. Whether God led us by suffering or by consolation all would be
            equal to a soul truly resigned.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            “YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”” -Matthew 15:7-9

          • fiona64

            If I wanted a sermon, I’d go to church and listen to one from a qualified pastor.

          • choiceone

            You are the one who is teaching the commandments of men. There is not a single line in either the Old Testament or the Gospels that says voluntary induced abortion is a crime or a sin. You apparently do not know this or know that there is a large meta- organization for religious organizations that take a pro-choice stance on abortion, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, which includes a large number of Protestant Christian denominations as well as Jewish organizations. You are merely honoring your own ignorance parading around as truth.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Again, you are grossly mistaken:

            Exodus 21:22,23

            וְכִֽי־ יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשָּׁ֤ה הָרָה֙ וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון עָנֹ֣ושׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃
            וְאִם־ אָסֹ֖ון יִהְיֶ֑ה וְנָתַתָּ֥ה נֶ֖פֶשׁ תַּ֥חַת נָֽפֶשׁ׃
            New International Version
            “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,”

            New Living Translation
            “Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life,”

            New World Translation
            “And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul”

            English Standard Version
            “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,”

            New American Standard Bible
            “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,”

            Holman Christian Standard Bible
            When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. If there is an injury, then you must give life for life,”

            International Standard Version
            “If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides. If there is harm, then you are to require life for life,”

            NET Bible
            “If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,”

            GOD’S WORD® Translation
            “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman’s husband to demand. If anyone is injured, the offender must pay a life for a life,”

            Jubilee Bible 2000
            If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that she aborts but without death, he shall be surely punished according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay by the judges. And if there is death, then thou shalt pay life for life,”

            American Standard Version
            And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,”

            World English Bible
            “If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman’s husband demands and the judges allow. But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,”

            So you see, with a basic understanding of Hebrew and with the aid of accurate renderings in English, it’s patent that Jehovah God places such high a value on innocent human life that even the manslaughter of a child in utero was punished with death in ancient Israel.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Kill a fetus, get a fine. Kill a woman, pay with your life. Fetus unimportant, woman majorly important. Poor quote to use as antiabortion. None of you whackjobs can think.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Are you hard of reading? Verse 23 applies to both the child in utero and the mother. Read it again.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Assholes like you post this verse often. I have read it many times. I know what it says. A life for a life if you damage the woman, a fine if she loses a fetus.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            I don’t respond to ad homs. Try again. That or yield your position.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am responding to your response. You are an idiot. Fa la la la la.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Again, I don’t respond to ad homs. Aut disce aut discede. Although the latter would be preferable since your puerile taunts conspicuously betray the fact that you don’t have anything else to throw at the refutations trouncing your position …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You have responded, just now. Right here. You responded. You are an idiot. Fa la la la la.

          • fiona64

            ROFLMAO … you haven’t trounced anything. In fact, the flaws in your “arguments” have been pointed out repeatedly.

            Check your ego at the door, Joey. None of us are impressed with it. Or, in fact, with you.

            Not that I think anyone could be more impressed with Joey than Joey is …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You responded to an ‘ad hominem” again. Boy, are you stupid.

            The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
            “And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.” — Leviticus 27:6

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am responding to the response you said you would not make. You want me. It is ever thus. Ho hum.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            So do not respond. No skin off my nose. Others will read my argument.

            This is how much fetuses were valued by Jehovah and the Israelites (great name for a band). Jehovah advocates abortion as a tool of genocidal war :

            The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. (Hosea 13:16)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You do respong to “ad homs.” You just responded. So you are stupid.

            See, it is only ad hominem if it is false. Truth is an absolute defense to a charge of “ad hominem” and/or slander.

            Man, you are so dumb you would put catfood down your pants to feed your pussy!

          • fiona64

            No, it doesn’t. As has been explicitly pointed out. It is only if the *mother* dies that life for life applies.

            One begins to wonder whether you are … challenged … rather than deliberately obtuse.

          • fiona64

            It has been repeatedly shown that you are deliberately leaving out the most accurate translation (the Douay-Rheims). It makes abundantly clear that the life of the *woman* is more important than the life of the fetus. Please stop trying to pretend that you’ve studied theology, or ancient languages … you are just making an idiot of yourself.

            [22] If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’ s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.
            [23] But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            You are stupid. These passages are about an accident in a fight, not an abortion. Get it? A FIGHT. This is a legal instruction about A FIGHT. NOT AN ABORTION OF INTENT TO ABORT SPECIFICALLY.

          • choiceone

            I’ve replied to this above. The meaning of the first clause refers to a miscarriage, not a premature birth, and real theological scholars have known that for centuries.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            I assume you’re fluent in Hebrew then:

            ‎וְכִֽי־ יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשָּׁ֤ה הָרָה֙ וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון עָנֹ֣ושׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃ – Exodus 21:22

            Numbers 5:27
            ‎וְהִשְׁקָ֣הּ אֶת־הַמַּ֗יִם וְהָיְתָ֣ה אִֽם־נִטְמְאָה֮ וַתִּמְעֹ֣ל מַ֣עַל בְּאִישָׁהּ֒ וּבָ֨אוּ בָ֜הּ הַמַּ֤יִם הַמְאָֽרֲרִים֙ לְמָרִ֔ים וְצָבְתָ֣ה בִטְנָ֔הּ וְנָפְלָ֖ה יְרֵכָ֑הּ וְהָיְתָ֧ה הָאִשָּׁ֛ה לְאָלָ֖ה בְּקֶ֥רֶב עַמָּֽהּ׃

            Where do you see כְנֵ֣פֶל (nephel – miscarriage) alluded to anywhere?

          • choiceone

            You are assuming that we actually know for sure equivalent words for miscarriage and stillbirth in the Old Testament and that they are the only words used for these meanings. I’m assuming that competent Jewish Hebrew scholars who are profoundly educated in ancient Biblical as well as later Hebrew are more correct in their interpretation of their own definitive text of the Torah than some guy who has limited Hebrew fluency.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Orrr you could just use a dictionary …

          • choiceone

            The fact that you imagine there is some definitive dictionary for ancient Biblical Hebrew is amusing. Do you honestly suppose that there are not disputes over the meanings of terms in an ancient language at stages only known from a single book with very limited references and that there is only one equivalent to a contemporary English word? Evidence that you are unaware of specialized Torah studies. . . .

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Are you?

          • choiceone

            Am I what? No, I’m not one of those experts. But I have made a serious effort to read the views of specialized experts in ancient Hebrew and early Hebrew/Jewish law, particularly but not exclusively those who are Jewish and therefore studied Hebrew from childhood.

            I have aimed to get understanding from those who are largely against abortion, those who are largely pro-choice, those who are in-between, etc.

            Nothing is more ridiculous than for a Christian in name who is not such a specialized expert to make claims that no pro-life Orthodox Jewish rabbi with such specialized expertise would ever make.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Then I’ll take your personal opinions under advisement.

          • fiona64

            Abi in malam crucem.

            Love, someone who really *did* study Latin. Pro-tip: “Shoemaker, neither slippers” is just a bunch of nonsense words.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If they did offer Latin at Stuyvesant High, I’m betting he flunked the course. Apparently he can sell a dandy insurance policy, though I wouldn’t buy it from him.

          • goatini

            This Joseph O guy received one of the finest educations that a student in New York City can possibly receive, and threw it all down the toilet in favor of radical theocratic cult ignorance. What a nitwit.

          • choiceone

            If you want credit for patterning your life after that of Jesus Christ, then please just go forgive adulteresses and female prostitutes and demonstrate the instantaneous purely spiritual healing of all physical illnesses and disabilities, especially those of women who have ectopic pregnancies or carry serious fetal anomalies or have serious health problems in late pregnancy and from childbirth, and show that you respect God by not forcing rape victims to carry to term pregnancies, and stop judging other people. Then, maybe people will believe you patterned your life after that of Jesus.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            I may be mistaken but I can’t shake this thought that if you ever read the Bible in full you’d feel very uncomfortable with the real Jesus Christ.

          • choiceone

            I’ve read the entire Bible a number of times from cover to cover and often in a non-cover-to-cover way. I love the Gospels. I don’t think you know the real Jesus Christ – you are substituting an ideological misinterpretation for both the historical Jewish Jesus and the living Jesus Christ. If you can’t even do those spiritual demonstrations of physical healing, you can even prove your faith for others – and Jesus warned people to watch out for people of false faith. And I do that every time I come upon an ideological anti-abortion “Christian.”

            FYI, the pro-choice movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s had a lot of mainstream and evangelical Protestant Christians as leaders in it. The female lawyer who took Roe v Wade to the SC was a Methodist minister’s daughter. And the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice is a huge pro-choice organization to which a number of mainstream Protestant Christian denominations belong.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            So you heal the sick and resurrect the dead as Jesus did?

          • choiceone

            We’re not talking about me. I’m not the one who is spouting claims of speaking on behalf of Christianity and telling people what morality to have. If you want to preach any moral point which Jesus Christ is not reported in the Gospels to have specifically preached, you need to show your credentials. Jesus can take you at your word for the purpose of saving you, but as far as I’m concerned, because Jesus warned us to be careful of those who come in Jesus’ name, I need proof of someone’s faith in Jesus before believing additions that someone makes to his teaching.

            CS saved my life when doctors couldn’t when I was just an infant. With the help of a CS practitioner, I have done a couple of healings that saved people whom doctors had said were dying and there was nothing medicine could do. I’ve only done very limited healings even with the help of a CS practitioner, but at a Christian Science church, you can meet lots of people who have done healings even without their help and also any local CS practitioners. CS healings are reported in the Christian Science Sentinel.

            I don’t know anyone in CS who has done a resurrection, but it’s not unheard of even in Buddhism and Taoism, and at least I’ve known one person who, after being declared dead on a death certificate, actually rose from a hospital morgue table and had to knock on the locked door for help to get out. And he’d ask for your credential of faith, too.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            You haven’t been arguing Christ condones the immoral and premeditated killing of a healthy human being in utero by his/her healthy mother, i.e., murder?

          • choiceone

            No, I haven’t. The expression “human being” has the same basic meaning as “person” when the latter is applied to the human species.

            In the Torah and Old Testament in general, as well as the oral legal tradition, Mishnah, redacted in 220CE and other early Jewish literature, the equivalent of that is “nephesh” (also, “nefesh”). In the Mosaic code, killing of a nephesh is a crime even if it is accidental!. But the unborn were not considered nephesh in either Old Testament or Mishnah.

            Since Jesus Christ said, “Not one jot or tittle of the law will fail,” he essentially seconded the Hebrew/Jewish laws of the time of his earthly career. There is not a shred of evidence that he ever said a thing about the status of the unborn to contradict that in those laws.

            It is very clear from early Jewish literature that none of the unborn were ever nephesh. So Jesus Christ could not have considered abortion to refer to the killing of a healthy human being in utero, because he would never have considered those in utero to be human beings, healthy or otherwise.

            Abortion was actually required if the pregnancy threatened a woman’s life, so none of the unborn were considered equal to a woman. There are parts of early Jewish literature which clarify the status of the unborn as part of the female body – and these parts are consistent across both humans and domestic animals.

            You just don’t agree with the view of the unborn which Jesus Christ agreed with and you refuse to admit it.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Exodus 21:22,23

            וְכִֽי־ יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשָּׁ֤ה הָרָה֙ וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון עָנֹ֣ושׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃
            וְאִם־ אָסֹ֖ון יִהְיֶ֑ה וְנָתַתָּ֥ה נֶ֖פֶשׁ תַּ֥חַת נָֽפֶשׁ׃
            New International Version
            “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,”

            New Living Translation
            “Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life,”

            New World Translation
            “And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul”

            English Standard Version
            “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,”

            New American Standard Bible
            “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,”

            Holman Christian Standard Bible
            When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. If there is an injury, then you must give life for life,”

            International Standard Version
            “If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides. If there is harm, then you are to require life for life,”

            NET Bible
            “If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,”

            GOD’S WORD® Translation
            “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman’s husband to demand. If anyone is injured, the offender must pay a life for a life,”

            Jubilee Bible 2000
            If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that she aborts but without death, he shall be surely punished according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay by the judges. And if there is death, then thou shalt pay life for life,”

            American Standard Version
            And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,”

            World English Bible
            “If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman’s husband demands and the judges allow. But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,”

            So you see, with a basic understanding of Hebrew and with the aid of accurate renderings in English, it’s patent that Jehovah God places such high a value on innocent human life that even the manslaughter of a child in utero was punished with death.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Besides, only an antichrist would vilipend the blood of Christ Jesus as the ransom sacrifice for the sins of man.

          • jejune

            hahahahahahashahaahah
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            hahahahaahahahahahahahaahahah
            ‘aa
            hahaahahahahahaahahaha
            haahahah

            tHATS FUCKING FUNNY JENNIFER

          • choiceone

            If I recall right, “Judge not, lest ye be judged”?

          • Joseph O Polanco

            And of what, pray tell, have I convicted you of? What prison term did I condemn you to?

          • choiceone

            You’re not condemning me, because I’ve never been pregnant to my knowledge and have never had an abortion. But you are judging others, morally if not legally, who have had abortions because you don’t like the reasons they had abortions. And I, as a third party, observe you doing this and say, if you judge them, we all have the right to judge you.

            And if you aren’t demonstrating those spiritual healings of physical illness, then I’m judging you for claiming to come in the name of Christ to others when you’re not presenting any of the suitable credentials of faith if you’re going to preach.

            If you’re just saying, “Help me, a poor sinner, Jesus!” then of course Jesus Christ will take you at your word that you believe in him. You don’t need other credentials of faith to be saved. But if you claim to save others from their moral ignorance, then you have to have those other credentials of faith if you want them to listen. And if you don’t have them, they have every right to call your faith and your knowledge of Jesus Christ into question.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Prove it. Where does the Bible teach what you claim?

          • choiceone

            Go to the Gospels. Jesus said he would save any of us if we believed in him according to our word, unless we blasphemed the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin. But he also said that there would be many who came in his name, and we were to watch out because, “There will be many who do works in my name whom I will reject.” He said that, If you believe on me and the works that I do, the works that I do can you do also, and even greater works.

            So if you cannot do the works he did, why should anyone believe that you actually have faith in Jesus Christ?

            Anyone can preach in Jesus’s name, so that is hardly proof, especially if you’re saying things that he was not clearly reported to have said. Asking for a demonstration of the spiritual healing of a minor physical disease or injury is hardly asking for you to demonstrate the resurrection of the dead. If is simply saying, show me your faith before you claim to know more than I do.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            But 1 Corinthians 12:4-13 makes it clear that not all of Christs sedulous disciples would possess the very same abilities – and they didn’t!

            Regardless, Christ made clear how to easily identify these:

            (1) These would carry out the will of his Father and God, Jehovah. (Matthew 7:21)

            (2) These would be united by a love so strong that nothing – not culture, race, language, socio-economic position, level of schooling or even distance – would be capable of occlude much less dampen it. Christ declared, “I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” -John 13: 34,35

            With these requisite traits in mind, examine the following:

            “I have come to the conclusion that if Jehovah’s Witnesses were the only ones living on the earth, wars would cease to exist, and the only duties of the policemen would be to control traffic and to issue passports.” – “Gyűrű”

            “Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king!”- “The Sacramento Union”

            “The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples . . . All are brothers.” – “The Encyclopedia Canadiana”

            “They refuse any form of violence and without rebelling put up with the many trials inflicted on them because of their beliefs . . . How different the world would be if we all woke up one morning firmly decided not to take up arms again, whatever the cost or the reason, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses!” – “Andare Alle Genti”

          • jejune

            You’re the narcissist.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            No. I do not want narcissists like you to come anywhere near my beautiful daughters. I certainly will fight your agenda tooth and nail. I did not give my daughters a Catholic education precisely because of folks like you.

    • Mo Reno

      “Your” wallet? Not sure if you get this or not, but you don’t pay my family’s premiums for health care. You contribute nothing to my policy, ergo, you have no say in how I or my wife use it. Inhale deeply and repeat: “it’s not ‘my’ wallet.”

      No one owes “arbitrary” benefits to anyone. but the insurance plans that I purchase offer specific benefits, as products I purchase. Just because my company employs 200 people and we all decided to purchase a group policy doesn’t mean you have any say in our plan’s execution. Face it, you are not going to be able to limit what Americans purchase in health care through their workplaces. Making it about “obligation to provide” benefits skirts the real issue: rates for consumers are cheaper when we pool our resources by buying insurance through work. What’s next? “No one owes you a wage for coming to work?”

      It’s funny when you argue about what plans “should cover” (waxing, acupuncture) as though the market itself won’t determine the best-selling package of price and covered care! You are making an argument that capitalism shouldn’t create innovative offerings and alternative care treatment packages for purchase! You are saying, “insurance companies, don’t make money off of innovative insurance products (i.e. health plans).” Good luck with that idiotic premise, that companies should defer to you what they offer to their customers.

      As far as price controls, you are, as an adult, and in all seriousness, trying to say that covering contraception will make insurance prices “skyrocket?” This in light of over 20+ years of health care costs skyrocketing, and the millions of dollars in executive compensation and bonuses, all based on an insurance system that makes the majority of their profits on the denial of care?

      You are the one guilty of childish rhetoric, not AM.

    • HeilMary1

      Nurse Sandy Wilson’s c-section infection cost her, her insurance company and taxpayers $5 MILLION, jackass. Do you want more such disasters just to placate pedophile priests and adulterous Viagra-stealing sex tourist Rush Limbaugh?

    • ack

      Should employers of people with a genetic pre-disposition to heart disease be able to deny preventative care if those employees engage in behaviors that make a heart attack more likely?

      • John1966

        You are operating from the misguided premise that private actions should be coerced by the government. Get your tyrannical fingers out of employment and health care altogether.

        • Arekushieru

          Um, she isn’t saying ANYTHING about the government? Herp Derp. And you are operating from the misguided premise that a private action such as obtaining contraception should be coerced by the employer (specifically, being coerced into not purchasing it). Oops. I shouldn’t be surprised, however, most Pro-’lifers’ are hypocrites.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Excuse me but coercian by government is why we have government. Otherwise I would make a trip to your house, rip your balls off, nail your johnson to the wall, and piss on your bleeding spasming body for shitz and giggles. You are my kind of guy.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I earn my insurance by working. It is part of my pay. I will not kick my boss square in his johnson if he will keep his nose out of my Bird and his hands off my pay.

    • choiceone

      You are seriously undereducated. A childbirth is supposed to take place in a hospital and in my state, a single childbirth without serious complications costs more than $14,000 on average. BC pills cost an average of $100 to $600 per year, the more expensive ones often being needed for medical reasons other than birth control alone. Do the math. A 20 year supply of BC pills will cost between $2000 and $12,000, which is cheaper than one childbirth in a 20-year period even if you use the most expensive kind.

      No wonder insurance companies immediately agreed to supply birth control free. They make out like bandits for every childbirth the birth control prevents. By covering birth control without charge, they will prevent so many pregnancies that they will get rich.

      You clearly no nothing about capitalism.

    • choiceone

      You are completely out of your mind. In my state, the average childbirth costs over $14,000 and abortion costs between $350 and $450 if done in the first 12 weeks, while the cost of birth control pills is no more than $500 per year unless they have some special medical function other than birth control. Do the math. 14,000 divided by 500 is 28, so the cost of BC pills for 28 or 30 years is the same as the cost of one childbirth – and that is not including all the prenatal care and postpartum medical problems of the woman.

      No wonder the insurance companies immediately and happily agreed to Obama’s proposition that the companies supply BC free! The more women use BC successfully, the fewer accidental pregnancies they will have, so there will be a lot of women who have fewer kids. Women will cost much less to the insurance companies in that event. Insurance companies used to treat being a woman like a preexisting medical condition because of the costs associated with childbirth, prenatal care, and post-partum medical problems and charged them more for health insurance. By giving them this stuff free, they will lower the number of their own pregnancies more successfully and thus, whether they have their own health insurance or are on their husbands’ insurance, insurance companies will pay out less.

  • Arekushieru

    EVERYone costs money. Even non-disabled people. And 40-000 is in the low range even for THEM. Even a few extra costs can add hundreds of dollars in minor cases. Oops?

  • Arekushieru

    Btw, I’m sure if you read (very carefully) that you’ll find that Heil Mary is also disabled. Oops.

  • anglel

    I am a woman, and I am completely pro life. This is why; Say with that I want to drive the car that I worked to pay for, there are rules governing how I am to drive so that no one becomes injured or hurt. Though it is my body and my car, I am still subject to having responsibility to others. Did you know suicide is illegal? (as stupid as it is…) Why isnt anyone going around successfully touting the advantages of killing ones self, after all, a person should have the right to do what they want with there own body right?

    I have another point that I want you all to think long and hard on. When you make a verbal agreement to let someone stay in your house, then you give them a key, they are not wrong for staying there and you actually have to give them an eviction notice to boot them out. In the same way, once a woman consents to sex, she is consenting to the possibility of being pregnant. Well thats all fine and dandy if she can “deal with any inconvenience that might pop up”. Remember the car? You get a license allowing you to drive and being irresponsible and causing injury to another person doesnt just “go away” (unless of course you dont get caught by the police).

    Ok pro choicers, why is it so wrong to give the baby a chance to choose whether or not it would like to live, when the woman knew full well that sex=babies. Its not a secret. Im pro-choice for the fetus, yes that little glob of cells that grow inside me to form a completely autonomous being. If it is okay to still the beating heart of an unborn child, it should be okay to still anyone’s beating heart, especially ones own.

    One would like to say sexual availability can be retracted, but not without stilling a beating heart. So really anything can be retracted if the threat of taking a life does not move you to honor a contract. When entering into a sexual relationship women, and men too, one should consider the extent of the contract to be finalized when the baby is born

    • Jennifer Starr

      Actually, no. Suicide is not a crime in the United States. though it generally is still considered a crime to advise someone to commit suicide or to aid and abet someone in the act, and suicide may prevent family members from recovering damages in a lawsuit in certain cases. So that’s your first argument knocked down right there. And as to the house analogy,you are completely mistaken. If you let someone stay in your house you can kick them out at any time, unless you’ve drawn up a formal lease agreement and they’ve signed it and are actually paying you rent, You do not have to get an eviction notice to make them leave. I used to work for a real estate/rental property office; I know these things.

      Lastly, consent to sex is not ‘consent to baybees’. It is consent to sex, nothing more, and yes, it can be withdrawn at any time. And getting an abortion is ‘taking responsibility. You might not like that, but unless it’s your pregnancy, it’s really none of your concern. You might try asking the fetus if it wants to live or not, but last time I checked, in the real world, they don’t actually answer back. Therefore, it’s the decision of the person who is pregnant. Hope we’re clear on that now.

      As to the car analogy and the rest of this badly-spelled and poorly punctuated, mishmosh, the rest of it is just basically repeating yourself. You think all women should be forced to have and give birth to babies or ‘keep their legs closed, and we’ve all heard it before. You’re not saying anything original, but I hope I’ve cleared up at least a few points for you here.

      • anglel

        first look up the law…danger to self or others…is a legal term the courts use to press charges against you and involintarily commit you.

        secondly there are certain states, like AZ and california (first hand experience, look it up) you have to give them a formal eviction in order to kick them out once you let someone stay with past 30 days.

        lastly you know where babies come from. I think women should use contraception if they want to try to prevent pregnancy. Thats just my opinion. I dont think a woman should be forced to give birth, I do know that an unborn childs rights should be protected to the fullest extent of the law. And that women need to realize that killing is not a place of power.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Sorry, that still doesn’t count as pressing criminal charges. You aren’t going to do jail time or pay a fine–you won’t find anyone’s mugshot on the internet with the charge of ‘attempted suicide’. It does not end up on your criminal record, therefore not a crime. Now I suppose if you commit a crime while attempting suicide, steal a gun or a knife to do it, climb up a building illegally, someone might charge you with something, but the mere attempt is not a crime. Involuntarily committing you is still not charging you with a crime. I don’t know the eviction laws in AZ and/or California, I live in Virginia, but even if that’s true, and even if suicide were a crime, this is still piss-poor logic. I’m sorry. If you don’t want an abortion, don’t get one, it’s as simple as that. But the person who makes a decision about the pregnancy should be the woman who is actually pregnant. End of story.

        • fiona64

          I think women should use contraception if they want to try to prevent pregnancy.

          All contraception, including surgical sterilization, has known failure rates. You do know that, don’t you?

          If my tubal ligation fails, there will be an abortion. Period.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      I am a woman and I am completely pro life, so naturally I am prochoice for women. Thank you God for 40 years and counting of legal effective contraception and safe and legal abortion.

    • jejune

      You’re a dumbass.

    • Joseph O Polanco

      What a display of sublime logic! You ROCK!!!

      Now, many pro-abortion supporters have told me, straight-faced, mind you, that children in utero are … parasites … and, as such, they have every right to exterminate them and have them removed from their bodies.

      Parasites …

      And they wonder why they keep getting trampled by a ferocious backlash …

    • Joseph O Polanco

      Btw, with respect to all the little children here who have attacked you instead of your exquisite logic, I hope they bring a big, wide smile to your face.

      Their ad homs are in reality them bowing to the veridicality of your position. They’re just too childish too openly admit it …

      Think of them as closet proselytes :)

      • fiona64

        As soon as she presents any logic, I assure you that it will be acknowledged.

        Your sycophancy is amusing, Joey.

      • jejune

        You are also a dumbass.

        See, I am not going to waste time debating you, or anglel

        You’re both woman hating dumbfucks.

        And that is about all you are worth.

      • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

        I am not a child. I take it your are enjoying anglel’s soft porn dramatic presentation of the drama of her life: bad girl gone good. Just a drama queen lying her ballinis off.

        • Joseph O Polanco

          Then why do you act like one?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            One what?

          • Joseph O Polanco

            A child.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What child?

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Thanks for proving my point .. again …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            What point?

          • fiona64

            “You remind me of the babe.”
            “What babe?”

            /arcane David Bowie reference

        • Joseph O Polanco

          “Let all malicious bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech be taken away from you along with all badness.”—Ephesians 4:31.

          “But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. Do not be lying to one another. Accordingly, [] clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Even as Jehovah freely forgave YOU, so do YOU also. But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union.” – Colossians 3:8,9, 12-14. (Brackets mine.)

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Word salad.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Actually, these are fundamental Christian teachings all sedulous Christians are readily recognized for. Antichrists, on the other hand, can’t be bothered …

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            Jesus and I are having a private lovefest. You are not my teacher. Two is company and three’s a crowd.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            And, as is palpable, neither is Christ nor God.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I am sure you know exactly where God is at every single moment. Sure you do. Um hmmmm. Yes, indeed.

          • fiona64

            Except for the part where you posted a whole slew of mistranslations. I’m guessing they didn’t teach much theology at Stuyvesant High …

          • goatini

            He went to Stuyvesant?!?? A seat in an elite science, math and engineering school wasted on a brainwashed cultist, that someone who would DO something with that education could have had.

          • jejune

            Best and most concise response I have seen to JESUS O POLANCO yet.

          • choiceone

            The greatest love that any intelligent, educated, God-loving pro-choice person can do for any ignorant anti-abortion person is to expose his or her ignorance. For as long as that anti-abortion person keeps bearing false witness against people who support abortion rights and making false claims about embryos and fetuses being persons, etc., as long as that anti-abortion person keeps insulting others in vicious ignorant ways, that person has nothing to do with the children of God, since God is not just love, but truth, and these anti-choice people lie, lie, lie.

            PS It is Elohim who is the non-judgmental forgiving. Christ did not cry out to Yahweh, but rather said, “Eloi, eloi,” merely the singular form of Elohim. If you’re born again of the Spirit and the water, it means you go back to Genesis 1, not Genesis 2.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Thankfully, God’s view on the matter is quite clear:

            Exodus 21:22,23

            וְכִֽי־ יִנָּצ֣וּ אֲנָשִׁ֗ים וְנָ֨גְפ֜וּ אִשָּׁ֤ה הָרָה֙ וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ וְלֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה אָסֹ֑ון עָנֹ֣ושׁ יֵעָנֵ֗שׁ כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָשִׁ֤ית עָלָיו֙ בַּ֣עַל הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה וְנָתַ֖ן בִּפְלִלִֽים׃
            וְאִם־ אָסֹ֖ון יִהְיֶ֑ה וְנָתַתָּ֥ה נֶ֖פֶשׁ תַּ֥חַת נָֽפֶשׁ׃
            New International Version
            “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,”

            New Living Translation
            “Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life,”

            New World Translation
            “And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul”

            English Standard Version
            “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,”

            New American Standard Bible
            “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,”

            Holman Christian Standard Bible
            When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. If there is an injury, then you must give life for life,”

            International Standard Version
            “If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides. If there is harm, then you are to require life for life,”

            NET Bible
            “If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,”

            GOD’S WORD® Translation
            “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman’s husband to demand. If anyone is injured, the offender must pay a life for a life,”

            Jubilee Bible 2000
            If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that she aborts but without death, he shall be surely punished according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay by the judges. And if there is death, then thou shalt pay life for life,”

            American Standard Version
            And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life,”

            World English Bible
            “If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman’s husband demands and the judges allow. But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,”

            So you see, with a basic understanding of Hebrew and with the aid of accurate renderings in English, it’s patent that Jehovah God places such high a value on innocent human life that even the manslaughter of a child in utero was punished with death.

          • fiona64

            You know, I always laugh at how conveniently you leave out the most accurate translation from the Hebrew (the Douay-Rheims) — because it disproves your position. (Please, stop pretending that you understand/can read Hebrew, Latin, koine or modern Greek … we all known better now).

            From Exodus (Douay-Rheims translation):

            22 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.

            23 But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life.

            It’s a much smaller punishment for a miscarriage than it is for a woman’s death, Joey … no matter how many times you try to pretend otherwise.

          • goatini

            How ironic that the Douay-Rheims version, which is most clear and unambiguous on these verses, just happens to be the preferred Catholic version.

          • fiona64

            Proselytizing is not welcome here. Thanks for the sermon, but you can keep that for church.

    • jejune

      You are a woman, and you are a complete moron.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    I reject your premise. You suggest that I have an obligation to consult and confer with others about my decisions vis a vis my sexual/family life. I reject such a premise. I have no such obligation.

  • choiceone

    Honey, they are lying about Jesus. Neither Jesus nor anything in Mosaic law says that voluntary induced abortion is killing a human being or that it’s morally wrong or a sin.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      In fact, Mosaic provides a trial by ordeal for the wife of a jealous husband. Priest gives substance that causes abortion. Proof of adultery being a dead fetus.

  • fiona64

    He’s one of many … but myintx takes the cake. Sorry you can’t post there anymore. :-/

  • anglel

    I did. It was one of the places I went to for info on how my baby was forming when I was pregnant. I had an account and everything. What is your point.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      If you just plagiarize pap from the net, I will call you out every time I catch you. I have had children and miscarriages. When I need advice from a fruitbat or the internet, I will ask for it.

      • anglel

        I can repost from a prenatal book if you prefer

        • fiona64

          No one really cares where you post from *as long as you credit the source.* Trying to make it look like the thoughts are original to you? Is called plagiarism.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          If you troll the board with anything other than genuine conversation and I can catch you doing it, I will out you. Post links to sources. Or be a dumbass. No skin off my nose. You have the manners of a hungry dog.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          You can do as you like. As can I. It is customary to make an attribution to the source or author when you use their work.

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          And I will call out the plagiarism if I catch you at it. It is customary to give an attribution when you post another writer’s work.

          • anglel

            My dearest apologies. I will make sure to post references for my sources of information. The lack of sentient cognition precluded my decision not to. But if you wish to return to intelligent discourse I am more that happy to acquiescence.

            Would you prefer MLA or APA?

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I think you are JOP in drag.

          • anglel

            as I thought, the effort would be wasted on an exchange such as this.

          • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

            I think you are JOP in drag. You write the same stilted prose.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Perhaps the most insulting thing about your posts, apart from the plagiarism, is your assumption that this is information that we don’t already know.

          • fiona64

            I know, right? It seems to be lost on her that many of us in this group have children.

          • fiona64

            JOP can spell better … even if his Latin is 99 percent fake.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You mean you will be more than happy to acquiesce, which doesn’t actually make much sense, as to acquiesce means to accept reluctantly and not without protest. So you actually would not be more than happy to do that. If you’re going to pull out big words to try and make yourself sound smarter,at least learn to use the correct tense.

          • fiona64

            The word is acquiesce, dear. Stop abusing your on-line thesaurus in a desperate attempt to look more intelligent; it didn’t work. For example, this sentence: “The lack of sentient cognition precluded my decision not to.” It translates to “The not capable of knowing stopped my decision not to. What the hell does that even mean? “I was too stupid to know better?” Maybe?

    • fiona64

      It doesnt make sense that a place would give one kind of information to
      women who are in a crisis pregnancy, like its just a lump of tissue, and
      another to women who want to have children and have the healthiest baby
      possible.

      I hate to break it to you, cupcake, but Planned Parenthood provides a full range of information to women — including about adoption, and pre- natal care, and contraception — in addition to abortion. They *want* women to make the right decision for *themselves.*

      • anglel

        you keep telling yourself that

        • fiona64

          I don’t have to “tell myself that.” It’s a verifiable reality.

          Re: adoption:

          http://www dot plannedparenthood dot org/health-topics/pregnancy/adoption-21520.htm

          Re: pre-natal care:

          http://www dot plannedparenthood dot org/health-topics/pregnancy/pre-pregnancy-planning-4254.htm

          Re: discussion of all options:

          http://www dot plannedparenthood dot org/health-topics/pregnancy/pregnant-now-what-4253.htm

          I know that reality is not something with which you are particularly familiar, but that’s not my fault.

          • anglel

            insulting me doesnt make you right…it just makes you mean.

          • fiona64

            Fine. I’ll stop with the insults and just speak truth to power: you’re a goddamned liar, and my post proves it.

          • anglel

            That’s not what they gave me. That’s not what happens at all. They tell all these horror stories of teen moms, adoptions that dont go through-and the stress of having a child alive and not knowing where it is vs. just “getting this over with now”, and how the baby was really just a glob of cells.

            Posting PR crap on the internet doesnt prove anything accept that you can regurgitate propaganda. I have been there and seen it for myself when I was in trouble. I have had friends go there when they were in trouble, expecting options. I wonder what their adoption referral/abortion ratio looks like…

            The one I attended didntt help me find prenatal classes, they dont help me gather resources to figure out how you would pay for the baby, they didnt help me find my midwife or have recommendations on one, they didnt let me know how easy it was to get prenatal care through medicaid, they said before there was modern anything, women gave birth to and raised happy fulfilled children, even women that lived in ice houses. All they did was fill me full of fear and dread. Fear something horrible was going to happen to me while I gave birth or even before, fear that I wouldnt be attractive anymore, fear I would be responsible for another life and had no idea what I wanted to do with my own. I was lectured that I needed to make “the best decision for me and my baby” alright, but when I told them I dont think I could go through with an abortion, they didnt seem to think that keeping my baby was it. I know ive misspelled and didnt proofread. This is my raw experience, and ultimately why im a fetus rights activist. I saw there to quietly support my friends as they went through the same thing at PP.

            On another rant

            It is funny we live in a world where people believe whatever is on the wrapper. Like chicken that says “all natural” as if their competition is selling chickens with prosthetic limbs. Or ” no added hormones” as if other companies inject hormones into the chicken after they kill it. Sometimes to see what something is really all about, no, most of the time…you have to peel back the label and find out the truth behind the front.

            PP is just as wrong as people parading around as pro-lifers, who insist that we shouldnt raise minimum wage, we shouldnt have services like food stamps at all, no one should be entitled to low cost medical insurance, and that corporations are really people. Honestly, “and poor people should not be encouraged to procreate, and if they concieve we should discourage them from bringing the pathetic doomed degenerate to term”, sounds right up their alley… In terms of civil rights and liberties, the glorification of abortion seems to be bed buddies to a modern eugenic conservative world view.

          • fiona64

            ::yawn:: What a ridiculous wall of text. You took an awful lot of time to say absolutely nothing of value.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I had two friends who were pregnant and went to PP. One who decided that having an abortion was the best decision for her and one who decided she wanted to give birth to and raise her child and was given information by PP to help her do just that. Both friends are happy and both doing well, and neither regrets the choice that they made. There is an article on this site about a woman who was a rape victim who got pregnant and decided that she did not want to have an abortion. The CPC she went to tried to bully her into adoption, but when she went to PP they gave her the tools she needed to raise her child. Frankly, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • jejune

            You’re also a goddamned idiot.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, she’s right. Reality is something you are not all that familiar with..

          • jejune

            And the facts that fiona has presented you with make you look like an ignorant fucktard.

  • Jennifer Starr

    She knows how to copy and paste.

    • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

      Oh yeah. Got no argument.

      • anglel

        i replied..read it…

        • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

          Baciare mi en culo, Sorca.

          • fiona64

            Te quiero. :-)