The Deeply Disturbing World of Modern Anti-Abortion Activism


To understand how dark and ugly and mean-spirited the anti-choice movement is, it helps to understand that, for anti-choicers in Kansas at least, having an opponent murdered is not enough. You’d think after Dr. George Tiller was assassinated in his church by frequent anti-choice protester Scott Roeder, that would be enough—enough pain caused, enough lives destroyed—to send the message that anti-choicers want to send, which is that even though abortion is legal, they will inflict so much pain and misery on anyone who dares try to help women and girls (many of whose sole “crime” is being female) that others who want to be helpful will be too terrified to do the right thing.

Anti-choicers have also turned their metaphorical guns on Dr. Tiller’s colleague, Dr. Ann Kristin Neuhaus, and have successfully found a judge who is willing to strip her of her license for providing the second opinion required for third-trimester abortions in Kansas. The judge made this ruling even though the complainant in the case is a convicted terrorist, Cheryl Sullenger. The court also forced Dr. Neuhaus to pay for her own railroading through legal harassment, to the tune of $93,000, which, with her loss of income and her son’s massive health problems, means that her family is on the verge of bankruptcy.

So, who are the girls—and they were girls—that anti-choicers felt needed to be forced to give birth, so much so that anyone giving them permission should be stripped of her license? As the Huffington Post reports, some of these cases will break your heart.

The records contain few identifying details about the females, but in one case, Neuhaus describes a 10-year-old girl who was raped by her uncle as “tiny” and physically incapable of being able to have a baby. Another girl was drugged and then raped by multiple men who videotaped their crime.

Clearly, depriving 10-year-olds of the opportunity to go through body-breaking labor to provide their rapist uncles with a shot at fatherhood is so evil that anyone who participates deserves to have her life ruined. It is worth noting that Kansas accepts mental health as a reason to provide third-trimester abortions; the notion that the judge, who is not a doctor, could ascertain from afar that these girls would not suffer from irreversible mental health damage from being forced to give birth to the babies of rapists is deeply implausible.

The utter indifference to the basic well-being of these young girls on display on the anti-choice side has been breathtaking in its cruelty throughout this case. It wasn’t enough for anti-choicers to deny that there could be psychological damage from forcing raped teens and pre-teens to give birth. They also had to go out of their way to humiliate those rape victims on national television.

In 2007, Phill Kline, the district attorney in Kansas, got his hands on a bunch of patient files that were supposed to be confidential. Somehow, Bill O’Reilly managed to get a hold of these files and broadcast their contents live on Fox News. Considering how few people had access to the files, the suspicion naturally rests on Kline, a deeply unethical man who used his position to harass abortion providers instead of to serve the people of Kansas.

This is what the war on abortion access looks like in Kansas: betraying the confidence of medical patients, pretending that forcing 10-year-olds to birth rapists’ babies is no big deal, bankrupting doctors, driving one man into a frenzy of anti-choice hate so much so that he murders someone, and allowing convicted terrorists to be the leaders running the whole thing. Under the circumstances, it’s no big surprise that one anti-choice leader is dropping hints that gun violence at the South Wind Women’s Center in Wichita is coming.

What all this bespeaks is a shocking amount of entitlement on the behalf of anti-choicers. It makes sense; the underlying premise of being anti-choice is believing that you have the right to control the reproductive decisions of perfect strangers and that your beliefs about what sexuality is “for” should be imposed on others by government fiat. Once you get into that headspace, all other kinds of shockingly entitled attitudes follow, including the belief that you get to misuse the medical records of underage rape victims and that clinics, and not you, are to blame if your protesting is an irritant to the rest of the community. The anti-choice movement, at its heart, is imperious and cold-hearted, but the situation in Kansas shows how an insular, radically anti-choice community can take the already grossly entitled attitudes of anti-choicers and blow them up into grotesqueries.

What’s upsetting is how little the rest of the country seems to understand what’s going on here. Everyone was shocked when Todd Akin insinuated that women and young girls seeking to abort pregnancies caused by rape are lying about being raped, but for those who are following the situation in Kansas, that’s no surprise. Anti-choicers have to tell themselves that women suffering from eclampsia aren’t actually going to die and that 10-year-olds who are pregnant by their uncles aren’t really rape victims in order to justify this kind of disgusting, intrusive, and occasionally violent behavior toward abortion providers like Dr. Tiller and Dr. Neuhaus. Admitting the truth—that sometimes women and girls really do need later abortions, and not every pregnancy is an occasion for joy—would be admitting to themselves that they spend their lives dedicated to the sole purpose of making the already hard lives of desperate women even harder.

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  • fiona64

    The utter indifference to the basic well-being of these young girls on
    display on the anti-choice side has been breathtaking in its cruelty
    throughout this case.

    I once had an anti-choicer told me that the moment a rape victim “held that precious baby in her arms, she’d forget all about being raped.” This is not only insulting but outright absurd.

    the underlying premise of being anti-choice is believing that you have
    the right to control the reproductive decisions of perfect strangers and
    that your beliefs about what sexuality is “for” should be imposed on
    others by government fiat. Once you get into that headspace, all other
    kinds of shockingly entitled attitudes follow, including the belief that
    you get to misuse the medical records of underage rape victims and that
    clinics, and not you, are to blame if your protesting is an irritant to
    the rest of the community.

    Yep, but they surely do like to sling the “selfish” word around at post-abortive women, whilst completely ignoring the fact that their narcissism is the most selfish of all.

    • Suz

      “I once had an anti-choicer told me that the moment a rape victim “held
      that precious baby in her arms, she’d forget all about being raped.”
      This is not only insulting but outright absurd.”

      Yikes. What happens if the poor girl manages to survive childbirth, takes that baby home, and drowns it in the bathtub or smothers it, or does away with it some other way? Then the rest of society gets all outraged and sentences that victim to a lifetime in prison. Where are the anti-choicers then? Nowhere, that’s where. Because if you are an already-born person, they don’t give 2 shits about you.

      • Ella Warnock

        Yes, but you see, to the antis taking Plan B after a rape is exactly the same as drowning or smothering a newborn.

        • Tahni Danielle

          Plan B prevents fertilization, it is NOT an abortion. And Ella, you sound like you have some problem with rape victims taking Plan B. Is that so? Because you’re no better than a rapist if it is.

          • ktlives

            Tahni, I think you need to re-read what Ella wrote. She was not advocating against Plan B, she was commenting with sarcasm on how asinine the anti-choicers’ beliefs are!

          • Ella Warnock

            Ah, I have no idea where you’re getting that, Tahni. Anti-choicers think that Plan B is an abortion pill. It’s not, but even if it were, so what? So no, I think it’s pretty clear that I think not ONLY rape victims should have access to whatever they need, so does every other woman for any other reason.

          • Valde

            Pro-liars like to lie and pretend that the pill and plan b are abortifacients so they can ban those too.

            Ella was mocking them.

          • Freethinker01

            Preventing ovulation is the primary purpose of hormonal contraceptives; however, hormonal contraceptives sometimes allow break-through ovulation. Conception can still take place. It’s the reason a woman can still become pregnant if she is “on the pill”.
            The second purpose of hormonal contraceptives is to thin the lining of the uterus and to make it unfriendly to implantation.
            That’s why hormonal contraceptives–including Plan B–are abortifacients. They permit conception but prevent implantation.

          • Valde

            Plan B prevents ovulation, you fuckwit

          • Diane Perry

            Given that pregnancy is officially begun, from a medical standpoint, with implantation, then any substance which prevents implantation cannot possibly be called an abortifacient. Science, bitches…it works.

          • HeilMary1

            Two cups of coffee can flush out zygotes. Are you going to now ban coffee and hundreds of similar natural products?

          • Amanda Kazarian

            Youre more likely to loose fertilized zygotes if you arent on a medication that suppresses ovulation. The female body can keep a fertilized zygote from attaching to the uterus for all sorts of reasons. But if youre not really ovulating the odds of that happening go down.

          • fiona64

            It was sarcasm. I know it’s hard to tell sometimes, but I promise … it was. I’ve posted with her long enough to be able to tell.

          • Ella Warnock

            Thanks, fiona.

            Quite frankly, though, just showing up out of nowhere and flinging poo without lurking and getting the lay of the land first is pretty bad form. My posting tone would be obvious to anyone who was actually paying attention.

          • Valde

            True. She is most definitely a feisty one!

          • Arekushieru

            Um, watch it, Ella, because there ARE people, like myself, who have difficulty with tone, and it’s NOT something that we can control. So, yes, Tahni made a mistake, but making a mistake with the posting tone is not that difficult to do.

          • HeilMary1

            I’ve definitely done that myself many times.

          • Ella Warnock

            There’s difficulty with tone, then there’s completely going off on somebody without, as I said, doing any due diligence – like taking a gander at posting history, or hell, just reading all my posts in this thread.

          • Arekushieru

            I know but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m talking about the fact that, when someone has difficulty distinguishing tone, it usually goes along with a whole host of other difficulties, as well. For example, the reason I have difficulty distinguishing tone is because I have something that is called Non-Verbal Learning Disorder. It’s akin to autism. And, like autism, I have a form of compulsive behaviour disorder. Which makes it difficult to ignore statements that I perceive as harmful. I feel I need to address them, immediately.

        • Miss_Beara

          I cannot believe that antis still think that Plan B is the abortion pill. Heck, they think birth control is an abortion pill. Some congressman/woman recently said a rape kit “cleans women out” ergo, abortion. I mean, seriously. What century are we living in again? Why is this still a political issue?

          • Ella Warnock

            Yup, little forlorn zygotes in a sad little puddle on a piece of cotton, every month you take the killing pills. Wait a minute, though, I thought bc pills render you permanently infertile. Hmm, so, hormones make me infertile but I’m still throwing zygotes every other month? Oh well, I can’t keep up with all the newest conspiracy theories anyway.

          • Jennifer Starr

            They actually think that conception occurs either during the sex act or very shortly after–I had one man who got very angry at me when I told him otherwise. And he kept referring to Plan B as ru486 and wouldn’t listen when I tried to correct him. Idiots.

          • Ibicella Lutae

            The anti-choicers are killing our unborn with their lies. The irony is painful.

      • liberaldem

        I would add what happens if the poor girl takes that baby home and doesn’t know how to be a mother, doesn’t properly nurture the child, or abuses it. Those scenarios don’t ever seem to occur to anti-choice people-then again, their goal is enforcing their beliefs on everyone, rather than a genuine concern for children or women.

        • Kathi J

          They want her to be forced to carry to term and then they want her to give up the child, preferably to one of them or their friends. CPC’s act as adoption brokers as well as anti-abortion liars.

      • Minerva

        The anti choicers also say how abortion is wrong, Jesus and God want you to have the baby, blah blah blah. They will bombard and manipulate vulnerable, often poor, young women into having the baby. The second they are beyond the 20 week limit they drop em’.

        Then 20 weeks later when the girl has the baby and applies for food stamps and aid they are refused and rejected by these same “Christian” anti choicers who say “if you couldn’t support a baby then you shouldn’t have had one…”. They also cut aid so the girl doesn’t get a real sex education, and most clinics are closed or too expensive so she isn’t able to obtain birth control. A year later, she is in the same position.

        Also, what about the men? Why is it single poor women struggling to raise children and the father is off somewhere not helping. Why don’t we focus on the bigger social issues of the fatherless society and the ramifications that will bring down the line?

        • Arachne646

          “Adoption”: it’s the all-purpose answer, and for anti-choice zealots, no objections or actual facts are going to dent their absolute certainty.

    • VeggieTart

      Holy crap, Fiona, that’s appalling that anyone would say that. The only proper response to that is to ask if this person is fucking insane or just a sadistic creep.

      Wonder how that ten-year-old rape victim is. Would they bemoan the loss of life if her pregnancy killed her? I’m thinking not because they don’t care about her, just her fetus–and their concern for that ends once the feet have cleared the birth canal.

      • fiona64

        Frankly, I was too dumbfounded to say anything besides this: “As a survivor of sexual assault, I find that I lack the words to adequately express my contempt for your dismissive attitude. We never ‘forget’ what we’ve been through; we just learn how to move forward. I sincerely hope that you *never* experience what I have … but if you do, I hope you remember your own words.”

        Yes, I remember that clearly what I wrote. And she still didn’t see that she’d said anything wrong.

        • Ella Warnock

          I’ll never understand what’s supposed to be so “healing” or “wonderful” about a burden forced upon you by a brutal ATTACK. What kind of person thinks a baby, or a pregnancy, is a blessing in disguise – something that, hey, you didn’t even know you wanted, but ain’t it great! A sociopath with no sense of empathy or sympathy, that’s who. If you can sympathize with a zef over a fully actualized human woman, then I’d say you’re pretty emotionally stunted.

          • Valde

            The libertarian pro-life fuckwads annoy the fuck out of me.

            Their website says ‘in the case of rape, the fetus has a RIGHT to be there’

            ASSHOLES

          • Ella Warnock

            As a person with very strong libertarian leanings, that kind of horseshit is doubly offensive and not true to libertarian ideals at all.

          • fiona64

            There’s a self-proclaimed Libertarian over on the CBS Sacramento site spouting all kinds of bullshit. People like him are the main reason I find the movement laughable, to be honest. He’s taken Rand’s “Selfishness as a Virtue” to the nth degree, which really amounts to “eff you, I got mine,” and is talking about how women do not have the right to bodily autonomy because the fetus’ rights trump hers.

            Oh, and of course the eagle egg nonsense.

          • Valde

            And what is most ironic is that Ayn Rand was very pro–choice, and she believed that to give a clump of tissue more value than a woman was an act of ‘viciousness’.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, he just got hoist on his own petard with some salient quotes from Rand’s essays …

          • Arekushieru

            But they don’t trump the poor pweshus MENZ rights, now do they?

          • Tahni Danielle

            Exactly. If I could prevent being raped than obviously the rapebaby can prevent being conceived. But it’s still my fault somehow.

    • colleen2

      The ‘selfish’ accusation is flung around by guys who object to paying child support. Has anyone ever noticed how the religious right never says ANYTHING about men who refuse to support the children they have fathered?

      • Valde

        That or they pull out the MRA line ‘well if it’s her choice to get pregnant/spread her legs’ then the baby is her responsiblity.

        Or they just pretend that all guys always pay all the time.

      • HeilMary1

        And they also vote back in adulterers like Scott DesJarlais who force abortions on their mistresses!

      • Arianwen1

        Many of the antis are also men’s rights activists who hold the position that if a man doesn’t agree with a woman’s choice to continue an unplanned pregnancy, they shouldn’t have to pay child support once the baby is born. They’re hostile to women having any say in their reproductive lives or men having any financial responsibility towards the children they father.

        • HeilMary1

          I’ve run into many such jerks in the D.C. area.

        • colleen2

          Yes, I often see ‘pro-life’ men and women and the MRM guys posting the exact same drivel (usually minus the religious pretensions on the part of the MRM guys. The religious right folks, including the idiot women, never disagree with them. The ‘pro-life’ movement is about control. Apparently Republican women need to be controlled and dominated. Sad, pathetic women that they are

  • Valde

    It would be great if someone were to start an online something or other, where we could all donate to Dr. Neuhaus and help her with that 93k.

  • Valde

    yeah, I have been told that I am a blood soaked baby killer for simply arguing pro-choice

    the histrionics of these people knows no bounds

    • Tahni Danielle

      Both of you need to remind these idiots to read Deuteronomy. If you can read that and still be Christian or pro-life, there is simply no help for you.

      • fiona64

        Well, they tell you that only *parts* of the OT still apply — parts, of course, with which they agree.

  • HeilMary1

    They enjoy practicing martyrdom by proxy by throwing all of us to the lions.

  • LiberalAria

    I like to point out to forced-birthers these days that after a child is born, no parent can be forced to give blood or donate an organ to save that child’s life. It has never been the law that a parent can be forced into surgery, even when that parent is the ONLY donor whose blood or body part can save that child’s life. The hospital will put that child on a donor list and if no VOLUNTARY donor is found, that child will die without any notice by the pro-lifers. Why, then, would anyone believe that a woman can be forced to endure a pregnancy that she does not want? Because for the forced-birther, it is not about the life of the child. It is about forcing an authoritarian theocracy on the rest of the country.

    Also, I’d like to point out that the ONLY reason we have reached this despicable state of affairs is because of the Hyde Amendment passed shortly after Roe v. Wade, which allowed the public to believe that federal money should never be spent on abortion, and the failure of our judiciary to punish anti-choice protesters for violating a woman’s constitutional right to privacy. Allowing the spectacle of clinic protests and terrorist tactics against abortion providers has been the greatest unchallenged constitutional rights violation to have ever taken place in this country, one that has effectively trampled on the rights of millions and millions of American women.

    • Valde

      Their reply to organ/blood donation after birth is that, if the baby is sick it’s ‘natural’ and that letting it die is ‘natural’ because giving it an organ = a positive right.

      And that the fetus right to life = a negative right.

      That is how they justify not helping the poor, or the sick. Just as long as you don’t purposely go out of your way (as in abortion) to kill someone, ‘letting them die’ is totes acceptable.

      • colleen2

        The problem with this reply is that it’s complete bullshit. It’s just a bunch of guys inventing categories. It’s ‘natural’ to give birth under freeway on-ramps and in ditches in the field. Of course the maternal mortality rate raises at an alarming rate when such primitive practices become the norm. And that result is ‘natural’ too. Of course it’s also ‘natural’ for old and sick men to be unable to have an erection. There are many genetic and behavioral problems associated with senior citizens fathering children. It’s nature’s way of saying “you’re too old or sick to be a father” and is perfectly natural.

  • Ella Warnock

    Their Big Book of Fables says that women must suffer in childbirth. They’re damn well going to make sure as many women as possible do exactly that, because, well, we deserve it for causing the Fall of Man and introducing “sin” into the world.

    • Tahni Danielle

      Sins that men are MORE than happy to commit.

      • HeilMary1

        Then blame us!

  • Micheleh

    Yet if it’s THEIR wife, cousin, sister or daughter, it’s DIFFERENT.

    Even that argument has to be made in terms of women as property, because they just cannot comprehend the idea of a woman being an independent, autonomous person in her own right. She’s either property or a walking womb.

  • Hollywooddeed

    I’ll turn over control of my body and most personal decisions to the government right after they do.

  • Valde

    FROM THE HUFFINGTON POST BLOG, BY CAITLIN BANCROFT

    “I wasn’t considering abortion. I wasn’t
    considering adoption, or parenting, or childcare. I wasn’t even
    pregnant, and I definitely wasn’t scared — at least not at first.

    When I volunteered to visit multiple
    crisis pregnancy centers in Virginia, I thought I knew what I was
    getting myself into. Crisis pregnancy centers (CPCs) are the foot soldiers
    in the war against women. These anti-choice non-profits pose as women’s
    health clinics then use lies and manipulation to dissuade pregnant
    women from considering their full range of reproductive options (ie:
    abortion and birth control).

    CPCs use a variety of tactics to lure
    women into their buildings: they offer free pregnancy testing, are known
    to list themselves under “abortion” in online directories and search
    results, and may use misleading names with the hope that women will
    confuse them for legitimate healthcare providers. Once inside, women are
    treated to a carefully crafted program of manipulation designed to
    dissuade them from choosing abortion, birth control, and if they’re not
    married – sex.

    In Virginia, there are over 58 CPCs,
    more than double the number of comprehensive reproductive healthcare
    centers in the state. Still, most people are unaware that CPCs exist —
    let alone understand the harm they cause. But I knew exactly what I was
    up against when I walked into “AAA Women for Choice” in Manassas,
    Virginia.

    At first glance, the center resembled a
    doctor’s office. The waiting room looked like it belonged to a
    pediatrician, complete with magazines and children’s toys. The
    atmosphere provided a sense of credibility and legitimacy. Under
    different circumstances, I would have trusted this façade; it would have
    put me at ease.

    After checking in, I was introduced to
    my “counselor,” a conservatively dressed middle-aged woman who led me to
    one of the back rooms. She sat across from me with some forms on a
    clipboard I was not permitted to see. Much like the décor, the set-up
    reinforced the sense of professionalism and expertise. The consultation
    began with the standard questions: name, address, age, date of last
    period?

    Right as I began to relax, the Q&A
    took a turn for the personal and invasive. “What is your relationship
    with your parents like?” “How is your financial situation?” “Have you
    told the father?” “What is his religion?” “Are his parents religious?”
    “How many people have you slept with?” “Would your parents be excited
    about a grandchild?”

    As I sat there having my life probed,
    the purpose of the questions dawned on me. In case the test was
    positive, my “counselor” wanted to know which tactic to use to persuade
    me to continue the pregnancy — exactly where my resolve was the weakest.
    Was there a loving Christian boyfriend who would make a great dad? Did I
    have kind supportive parents who would be excited by the idea of a
    grandchild? I knew I wasn’t pregnant — knew exactly what she was doing —
    knew she wasn’t a doctor. But my body reacted instinctively to her
    questions with guilt and shame. It felt like a kick in the gut when she
    asked if I had told my brother about the baby, and I felt a creeping
    sense of selfishness as I imagined the door slamming on my shared
    apartment, my twenties, my life. Would my parents want me to have this
    child? Would it matter?

    The woman stopped between questions to
    comment on my answers and lie. “Oh, you’ve taken birth control. Let me
    tell you how that causes cancer and is the same a medication abortion.” I
    was told abortion would scar me for the rest of my life — would damage
    all of my future relationships and leave me “haunted.” I was told the
    pill could cause breast cancer, that condoms are “naturally porous” and
    don’t protect against STIs, and that IUDs could kill me. She lectured
    and lied to me for over an hour before I even received the results of my pregnancy test.

    Also interspersed in the deception were
    subtle judgments of my life decisions. “So you do have some scruples
    about you,” she said at one point, referring to my low number of sexual
    partners. One of the most disturbing comments came when I was pressed
    about the sexual experience leading to my visit, the reason I supposedly
    needed a pregnancy test in the first place. I told her an all too
    common story of acquaintance rape. I had been at a party, I said,
    severely intoxicated and unable to consent, “I didn’t remember anything…
    I just wished it hadn’t happened.” Her response made it clear that the
    situation was my fault, “Oh so he took advantage of you. Well just don’t
    do it again sweetie; just don’t do it again.” It made me sick.

    It only got worse after a positive
    pregnancy test. At another CPC (the deceptively named “A Woman’s Choice”
    in Falls Church, Virginia) I could hear two employees whispering before
    entering my room, plotting strategies to reveal the test results and
    best manipulate my reaction. When they did finally clue me in, my
    concerns were casually brushed aside and used as ammunition for their
    agenda: I could care for a baby with no job, my parents would certainly
    help, and I could absolutely handle the stress. They even argued that I
    could be a law student while pregnant: “It will probably be good for the
    baby,” the woman said, “because you will be sitting down all of the
    time.”

    At this center and elsewhere, the
    conversations were always the same. It didn’t matter how many times I
    said that l didn’t want to be pregnant or be a mother the CPC staffer
    would continue to bully me. Their tactics were so blatantly manipulative
    that I should have been able to fight back. I wanted to have a
    response, some kind of self-defense. But I couldn’t find anything to
    say. I am pro-choice feminist activist and I often discuss these kinds
    of difficult and emotionally sensitive topics at work and in school. Yet
    these women’s so-called concern left me defenseless, struggling to find
    a response that didn’t play right into their hands.

    The way that these women treated me made
    one thing very clear: they didn’t care about me, my future, my
    happiness, or my relationships. I was simply a shell that needed to be
    distracted and kept questioning until it was too late for me to make my
    own choices, and too late for me to decide if this is what I wanted — or
    not. I truly can’t imagine the pain that CPCs inflict on women who are
    actually struggling with an unintended pregnancy. I left each CPC
    feeling humiliated, terrified, and panicked… and I wasn’t even pregnant.

    I think we can all agree that it is
    wrong to shame someone seeking guidance. It is wrong to lie to someone
    in order to manipulate her future. It is wrong to treat women like
    walking wombs. Yet these tactics are core to the mission of Virginia’s
    crisis pregnancy centers. They advertise to scared women who need help,
    and they claim to offer unbiased information, guidance, and support to
    those who need it. But instead CPCs treat women the way they treated me —
    like disobedient children who need to be schooled in religion and saved
    from their own decisions. To them a woman is a vessel for a future
    baby, nothing more.

    Ultimately, my undercover CPC
    investigations allowed me to witness firsthand the cruelty and deception
    at the heart of the anti-choice movement. As a result, I am even more
    dedicated to ensuring that every woman has the freedom to make her own
    deeply personal reproductive health decisions. Surprisingly, I also
    realized that I agree with Virginia CPCs on one point: when a woman
    walks through their doors, a life is at stake. But throughout all of my
    investigations, I was the only one who thought it was mine.”

    • fiona64

      I wish I were even remotely surprised by this …

  • disqus_e0s8we914N

    Dear Ms. Marcotte:
    Rape is a crime that deeply wounds the victim. Who doubts that fact?
    By contrast, your presumption that murdering an innocent child who is conceived in rape will or ever can reverse — or even reduce — the trauma and the multilayered consequences of rape is outright nuts, magical thinking on steroids!
    Your fantasy that abortion will — or even can — mitigate the trauma of rape is an illogical and childish delusion, the predictable product of a materialistic society that is blindly obsessed with physical appearance as a reliable harbinger of value and truth.
    In reality, killing an innocent child who is conceived in rape only perpetuates the profound physical, emotional and spiritual trauma of rape.
    Additionally, as you pointedly omit in your rant, coerced abortion is often used by rapists to hide the evidence of their crime.
    When I was a child, rape was a capital crime, and the death penalty was considered a suitable sentence for a convicted rapist.
    Today, abortion has displaced onto the innocent — the victim of rape and the unborn child who is conceived in rape — the psychological, spiritual and physical consequences of rape.
    Although I am not Roman Catholic, I strongly support Roman Catholic opposition to both abortion and the death penalty, and I am fundamentally opposed to the absurd, trite view that killing an innocent child who has been conceived in rape is a “solution” to any criminal act.
    I welcome you to consider joining the human race, where, unlike the experience of shopping in a climate-controlled mall, that which is of great and unique value, including, for example, human life, cannot be purchased at a better, lesser price at some other time, but must be protected now because of the nature of what life is and the REALITY that life in the world as we know it often requires complicated solutions.
    Sadly, Ms. Marcotte, we humans are not able by any means, including abortion, to time travel back to some happier place and time.
    Your advocacy of abortion erroneously presumes that undergoing an abortion is “no big deal. . . .Once you get into that headspace, all other kinds of shockingly entitled attitudes follow . . .”
    In fact, the pro-abortion movement, “at its heart, is imperious and cold-hearted.”

    • Jennifer Starr

      So you really think that a tiny ten year old little girl should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term? Or that any rape victim should be forced to carry a pregnancy because it’s ‘evidence’? Excuse me, but I’m going to have to go and be sick now–rape apologists like you tend to do that to me.

      • HeilMary1

        I wonder if “pro-life” disqus thinks pedophile priests should be executed?

      • fiona64

        Mr_Cris pulled that “the fetus is evidence” bee-ess as well, as I recall …

        • Jennifer Starr

          Yeah, that’s been a favorite meme of the rape apologist crowd lately. I think it has to do with Liar Rose and her Live Action Smears. .

          • Valde

            And an idiot lawmaker from Arizon, or NM, not sure, she wanted to ban abortion in the case of rape because fetus = evidence. Huge outcry and she tried desperately to backtrack.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Additionally, only two people in the United States were ever on death row for the crime of rape. So unless you lived in a different country, you’re basically talking crap.

      • fiona64

        Thank you; I smelled bovine excrement the minute s/he said rape was a capital crime.

    • goatini

      The ONLY innocent party in a violent criminal sexual assault is the innocent SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIM. Criminals that commit violent sexual assaults are mentally ill, and many mental illnesses are hereditary. The ONLY compassionate, moral, and ethical remedy for the innocent sexual assault victim who is impregnated by the violent criminal, is a termination of that impregnation as soon as possible. The innocent sexual assault victim should NOT be subjected to an even MORE grievous assault of her and her family’s genetics by violent force, of tainted criminal DNA. Mentally ill criminals’ defective tainted DNA should NOT be encouraged to be perpetuated, especially through and at the expense of innocent violent sexual assault victims.

      No sane person would ever consider denying the victim of any OTHER violent felony assault, the proper medical care to make the victim as whole as possible to what s/he was before the criminal assault and injury. But forced-birth @ssh@ts like you want to not only deny the proper medical care to make the innocent sexual assault victim as whole as possible to what she was before the violent criminal assault, but you eagerly want to sadistically inflict MORE pain, punishment and suffering upon the innocent sexual assault victim, heaped on top of the violent felony sexual assault she has grievously suffered.

      Mister Disqus Burner Account “disqus_e0s8we914N”, is, as well as the entire vicious misogynist forced-birther movement, at its heart, entirely imperious and cold-hearted, as evidenced by the vile post I am replying to.

    • colleen2

      When I was a child, rape was a capital crime, and the death penalty was considered a suitable sentence for a convicted rapist.

      How old are you? On what planet was rape a capital crime?

    • Valde

      Additionally, as you pointedly omit in your rant, coerced abortion is often used by rapists to hide the evidence of their crime.

      Yeah, so clearly, if a man is raped, the rape never happened, because men can’t get pregnant!

      Or if a 5 year old is raped, because she didn’t get pregnant, no rape!

      Idiot.

    • HeilMary1

      So all U.S. rape victims should suffer deadly, disfiguring, disabling and bankrupting injuries from forced childbearing on behalf of spoiled pedophile priests who can’t afford weekly flights to Bangkok and Manila? You’re really sick!

    • fiona64

      As a sexual assault survivor, I am deeply insulted by your remarks. I sincerely hope you never experience what I did. The only innocent party in a sexual assault is the *victim.* You become a rape apologist the minute you insist that a woman be forced to gestate a pregnancy conceived as a result of a crime against her. In 31 states, that rapist can successfully obtain visitation rights if his victim decides to rear a child conceived as a result of the crime committed against her. While I support a woman’s decision to do so, it seems to me that she will be mentally raped for the next 18 years when the man who assaulted her comes by for his “daddy visit.”

      A fetus is not a child. A fetus lacks the capacity for “innocence” or “guilt,” because it is unconscious. When you assign “innocence” to a fetus, you perforce assign guilt to the pregnant woman — and punish her as a result.

      As I said, I sincerely hope that you never experience what I did … but, if you do, I hope you remember your merciless words.

    • maiathebeegrrl

      “Your fantasy that abortion will — or even can — mitigate the trauma of rape…”

      Do you really not understand that the trauma we are seeking to avoid with an abortion is the psychological and physical trauma of a forced birth? Can you possibly be that dumb??? Do you really not understand what it means to avoid a secondary trauma???

      “…coerced abortion is often used by rapists to hide the evidence of their crime…”

      Got any evidence to go with that wild claim? Because most of the actual peer-reviewed research suggests that sexual abusers/exploiters of minors are actually LESS likely to want a pregnancy to end in abortion (or at least less likely to have it go that way), as the pregnancy/birth can guarantee them continued access to their target. (Not that it can’t go the other way, as you describe, but that is less likely, given the actual observed data I’m familiar with.)

      Also, you know your post is REALLY badly written, right? This is like some awful dime-store rhetoric…

    • Ella Warnock

      “your presumption that murdering an innocent child who is conceived in
      rape will or ever can reverse — or even reduce — the trauma and the
      multilayered consequences of rape is outright nuts, magical thinking on
      steroids!”

      Your presumption that every rape victim will be joyful and grateful to give birth if only we FORCE her to do so is the real magical thinking here. That some women have regretted abortions is not reason enough to deny abortion to any other woman. I don’t expect you to believe a woman is competent or adult enough to deal with any regrets she may have, but I believe most women are just that. This wringing of hands over what someone MIGHT regret in the future is unwarranted and unnecessary.

      “Additionally, as you pointedly omit in your rant, coerced abortion is often used by rapists to hide the evidence of their crime.”

      That’s not an abortion problem. That’s a rape problem. The message that a victim comes away with is that her needs will STILL not be recognized or respected until she’s unloaded the ONLY thing that seems to have any value in the equation.

      “trite view that killing an innocent child who has been conceived in rape is a “solution” to any criminal act.”

      Abortion isn’t a solution that will amend a criminal act. It’s the solution to not having a child that you don’t want, created by an act forced upon you.

      “imperious and cold-hearted.”

      Indeed.

    • Amanda Marcotte

      How much time do you think a rape victim should do for “murdering” her embryo?

      • HeilMary1

        “Disqus” the troll would sentence such women to life in prison, while wrist slapping pedophile priests and cheating wife killers like Eric Prince of Blackwater.

    • Rujax

      You’re a guy, right? Thought so. Listen carefully…men know NOTHING about being a woman. NOTHING.

      Go back to your forced-birth fantasyland.

    • Valde

      “The journalist Helena Smith wrote the
      story of a woman named Mirveta, who gave birth to a child conceived in
      rape in Kosovo. Mirveta was twenty years old, and illiterate; her
      husband had abandoned her because of the pregnancy. “He was a healthy
      little boy and Mirveta had produced him,” Smith writes. “But birth, the
      fifth in her short lifetime, had not brought joy, only dread. As he was
      pulled from her loins, as the nurses at Kosovo’s British-administered
      university hospital handed her the baby, as the young Albanian mother
      took the child, she prepared to do the deed. She cradled him to her
      chest, she looked into her boy’s eyes, she stroked his face, and she
      snapped his neck. They say it was a fairly clean business. Mirveta had
      used her bare hands. It is said that, in tears, she handed her baby back
      to the nurses, holding his snapped, limp neck. In Pristina, in her
      psychiatric detention cell, she has been weeping ever since.” The aid
      worker taking care of Mirveta said, “Who knows? She may have looked into
      the baby’s face and seen the eyes of the Serb who raped her. She is a
      victim, too. Psychologically raped a second time.””

      One rape survivor, in testimony before the Louisiana Senate Committee on
      Health and Welfare, described her son as “a living, breathing torture
      mechanism that replayed in my mind over and over the rape.” Another
      woman described having a rape-conceived son as “entrapment beyond
      description” and felt “the child was cursed from birth”; the child
      ultimately had severe psychological challenges and was removed from the
      family by social services concerned about his mental well-being. One of
      the women I interviewed said, “While most mothers just go with their
      natural instincts, my instincts are horrifying. It’s a constant,
      conscious effort that my instincts not take over.”

      In working on my book, I went to Rwanda in 2004 to interview women who
      had borne children of rape conceived during the genocide. At the end of
      my interviews, I asked interviewees whether they had any questions for
      me, in hopes that the reversal would help them to feel less
      disenfranchised in the microcosmic world of our interview. A
      woman paused shyly for a moment. “Well,” she said, a little hesitantly.
      “You work in this field of psychology.” I nodded. She took a deep
      breath. “Can you tell me how to love my daughter more?” she asked. “I
      want to love her so much, and I try my best, but when I look at her I
      see what happened to me and it interferes.”

      The Legitimate Children of Rape by Andrew Solomon

  • Carol S.

    I’d like to hope that Dr. Neuhaus has some appeals recourse to a higher court? Hard to imagine that this court decision could stand up to any legal test!

  • Valde

    Sweet!

  • http://gersande.com/ Gersande

    I am so disheartened by this article. I don’t know where to start to begin solving a problem like this.

  • Valde

    Hey, I would love to see you go after some of the more misogynist trolls!

  • Ella Warnock

    I didn’t “get” you, is THAT what you’re saying?

    “And Ella, you sound like you have some problem with rape victims taking Plan B.”

    I misunderstood that you accused me of wanting rape victims to not have access to Plan B?

    “Because you’re no better than a rapist if it is.”

    I misunderstood that you accused me of being no better than a rapist? Yeah, no. I don’t think so.

    What exactly is your problem here, Tahni? What the fuck is with your attacks on someone who is CLEARLY pro-choice? What, you’re somehow unable to check out my posting history? Now you’re just being a jerk. Don’t you get all up in my grill because you didn’t do your due diligence.

    • Valde

      you eat baybeez with that grill!!

      • Ella Warnock

        LOL, I do!!

  • Jennifer Starr

    Unfortunately,there actually are people who think like that.But thankfully Ella is not one of them.

  • Cee Bee

    A few days ago I told a conservative Christian that I believed God was love. He got extremely angry with me and told me “absolutely NOT. God is fire and judgment and punishment!” I felt disturbed by his reaction and realized that someone with his certainty and mindset could easily justify the infliction of suffering, death and evil as long as it fit into his strangely manufactured version of righteousness. Good lesson for those who think the tactics of the anti-abortion movement are too crazy and extreme to be real.

    • fiona64

      The self-proclaimed Christians who behave this way are acting in a fashion antithetical to the actual teachings of Jesus. I have said many times, and often directly to them, that Jesus wouldn’t recognize his teachings in their mouths.

    • colleen2

      CeeBee…The Christians who talk use love as a justification for their bigotry piss me off more than those folks. Conservative Christians use religion to manipulate and control others, that’s the function of their ‘faith’. Conservative Christians are also shallow and stupid and so the culture they advocate for is fatally dysfunctional.

    • Valde

      Yeah, I have heard some of the more right-wing libertarian type ‘christians’ complain about how all the ‘god is love’ stuff is stupid hippy bullshit, and how the REAL god is all about killing all non-believers.

  • fiona64

    IndieGoGo usually allows PayPal transactions.

  • Arachne646

    Dr. Neuhaus lost her license for omitting statutorily required confidential patient information on legal forms, some of which wasn’t kept confidential, obviously. That’s the ironic part of the whole affair, if ironic is the word I’m looking for. Dr. Neuhaus obviously knew that her patients’ information wasn’t going to remain confidential while it was able to be subpoenaed from this Clinic, so she omitted sensitive information from the medical record that DIDN’T end up on Bill O’Reilly’s show, after all.

    • colleen2

      Dr Neuhaus needs a couple of really good lawyers and a publicist.

  • HeilMary1

    Don’t you know? — they are actually letting NAMBLA call all the shots. Of course, NAMBLA members are simply addressed as “Father”, “Monsignor”, or “Your Holiness”, so the NAMBLA funding, membership, and control goes completely unnoticed.

  • Beatrix S.L

    If you want to help Dr. Nenhaus pay her legal bills, please donate here:

    http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dr-neuhaus

  • Freethinker01

    Only people with no sense of right and wrong would refer to a human being as a “choice”. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that it’s “right”. Slavery, discrimination, etc, are perfect examples. Abortion is, hopefully, on its death-bed. As more and more people–including scientists–affirm the humanness of unborn human beings, it’s increasingly difficult to support a Constitutional right to kill them.
    No human being should have the right to choose to commit homicide without Constitutional due process.

    Here’s a thought for you to ponder: If you found out that a modern day Holocaust were taking place in this country right now–based on some Constitutional interpretation of a “right to privacy”–to what lengths would you go to stop it?

    • fiona64

      Here’s a thought for you to ponder: if you found out that a modern-day slavery movement were taking place in this country right now — based on some religious interpretation of “right to life”– to what lengths would you go to stop it?

      • Valde

        freethinker my ass

        they are now claiming that Plan B kills

        • Ella Warnock

          I have no idea if I ever sloughed off a zygote either on or off of hormonal birth control. It’s a bit late in the game to worry about it now, but that’s the deal, isn’t it? Convince me that I’ve done something horribly wrong and then try to sell me on the idea that they’re the only ones who can ease my “pain” and right my terrible wrong.

          That’s some Machiavellian manipulation right there. I can’t imagine why anyone with a scintilla of self-respect would ever fall for it.

          • goatini

            I heard this fake “counselor” woman on Catholic radio some months ago, trolling for Victims For (More) Dollars from her false blame-and-shame fiefdom. “Call or visit the website right now… even if you DON’T feel regret and remorse for your abortion, because you really DO feel it, you just don’t KNOW it.”

    • Ella Warnock

      Only the breathtakingly arrogant would think they should insert themselves into my private medical decisions. Yes, it’s called “right to privacy” for a reason. Because it’s nunya.

    • goatini

      And here is “deeply disturbing”, Exhibit A. A fact-free load of made-up BS falsely asserted as “fact”.

    • HeilMary1

      ALL abortions are self-defense. Do you oppose self-defense?

  • Valde

    Calm the F down honey.

  • ANewAnswer

    Anti choice is way to kind for these regressive psychopaths. The idea that these people, who are totally devoid of either empathy or compassion, care about life in any form is absurd. This is really a movement to enslave women, to deprive them of their freedom. Where better to attack women than when they are most vulnerable. These people are basically monsters.

  • RethinkThePink

    Amanda. You hit it out of the park with this one. Simply spectacular.

  • HeilMary1

    They save the blasted bath water because it may contain zygotes, but they throw away mothers and already born babies.

  • WagatweRHRC

    That is outdated information. A recent study shows that it actually only inhibits ovulation and does not interfere with implantation.

    “But it turns out, at least when it comes to Plan B, there is now fairly definitive research that shows the only way it works is by preventing ovulation, and therefore, fertilization.”

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/22/172595689/morning-after-pills-dont-cause-abortion-studies-say

  • Stadskind

    As someone who is pro-choice, I find it offensive that some people appear to think that they speak for everyone… For one thing, I am Christian. Surprised? You claim your right to privacy and want to make your own decisions, yet you ridicule others for doing the same thing, even with something so personal as religion. And then you call pro-life hypocrites? Of course, anyone who disagrees with your (sometimes unsubstantiated) opinions must be ignorant, a man, or worse, a man’s voice-box in the guise of a woman.

    Let’s not fool ourselves… At twelve weeks, the fetus has arms and legs. It has five fingers and toes. The channels of the inner ear have already developed. It cannot possibly be compared with a zygote or with sperm and an unfertilized egg. To do so, would be grossly unfair and cruel to mothers who have experienced miscarriages.

    And please don’t fool YOURSELVES. Even Roe vs Wade admitted that the state does have an interest in protecting the unborn and that the state’s interest in doing this becomes more compelling as the pregnancy progresses. I am not saying that abortions ought to be illegal, especially in situations such as rape, risk to the mother, and physical abnormalities, but not limited to these situations. But just because the unborn fetus does not have legal rights, it does not mean that it is not a being in some sense of the word, simply because you choose to believe that it isn’t. Because your choices and rights may be MORE compelling, especially in the cases mentioned, doesn’t mean that you are the only party who ought to ever be considered.

    The absence of fathers and the unwillingness of fathers to pay child support have been mentioned. Of course, the financial and emotional burden of raising children should not fall exclusively on the mother simply because she was the vehicle to bring them into this world. Yet I wonder, whether feminists realize how their attitudes may be encouraging the social phenomenon of absent fathers. Naturally, a rapist should have absolutely no say in anything relating to the rape victim, or to a child, if there is one. But not all fathers-to-be, who engaged in sexual activity which was very much consensual and who would be willing to financially and emotionally provide for their offspring, would approve of their child being aborted. So they have absolutely no voice in the matter? What do you expect to happen when men are completely ignored as being irrelevant?

    I would never expect any rape victim carry a child to term that she did not choose to. As someone who DID experience childhood sexual abuse, I wonder though… How supported do those women feel who were raped and then choose to go through with the pregnancy? I have been involved with survivor communities and I have had the opportunity to get to know that many rape survivors who had abortions (sometimes, but not always forced) were sorrowful and mourned the loss of their children. To make sweeping statements which are supposed to apply to all victims of sexual assault, you are being very unfair and dismissive of the plight of women who make choices not in line with your views.

    Personally, if I had conceived from rape, I do not believe that I would have carried to term – mostly because of what another poster mentioned. That rapist can get child visitation rights. This is especially disturbing if the rapist was a pedophile, for reasons which ought to be very obvious. We cannot deny that genetics do play a role in children’s dispositions and who they end up being (although I take extreme exception to the poster who said most rapists are mentally ill – most of them know exactly what they are doing and they do not deserve to get away with it by claiming mental illness as legal defense). We cannot deny that a child who looks like the rapist, is sure to be daily torture for the mother.

    Yet I wonder… How can we say that life, or the potential of life, can be overruled in the case of abortion, but that the sanctity of life should protect criminals from the rightful punishment for their crime? Unfortunately, our laws do not allow for capital punishment. Even in America, a Supreme Court ruling held that the death penalty could not be given for the non-homicidal rape of an adult woman (non-homicidal rape of a child may, in principle, but is extremely unlikely to, result in the death penalty). So my proposed solution is – let’s put the rapists to death. They certainly deserve it. The woman can still choose whether or not she wishes to carry the pregnancy, but whatever the choice, make sure that the rapist won’t be able to put anyone else in that excruciating position.

    Of course, putting a 10-year old through child birth is unthinkable. But do allow me to at least be horrified: Why on earth did the abortion need to be performed in the THIRD trimester? Where were the people who were supposed to look out for the interests of this child and why on earth did they not perform the abortion earlier? Is no one else horrified by the psychological trauma that this late-term abortion caused? Let’s not ignore the fact that this is NOT a pro-choice situation. The choice of the guardians and the courts, yes, the choice of that 10-year-old girl has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. You insist that a third-trimester abortion is what is best for this child because of what you believe to be in her best interests, not because of her choice.

    On a side-note, Gosnell WAS convicted of three counts of infanticide. If he was so perfect and only did what he did for noble motives for valid medical reasons, why was he convicted of homicide (keeping in mind that four charges were in fact dismissed due to their circumstances)? I find it interesting that NEITHER the pro-choice, nor the pro-life movements seem to think that women are capable of forming their own opinions. Both provide biased secondary accounts of what happened. If you truly respected women’s ability to think for themselves, why not provide the unaltered FACTS (naturally respecting the identities and medical privilege of the women involved) and let us decide for ourselves whether his actions can possibly be justified? We are supposed to take your word as gospel?

    I find it offensive that rape crisis centers would seek to manipulate those who visit them into carrying the baby to term. I find it equally offensive that paid abortion providers should be able to provide “counseling” despite their clear conflict of interest and profit motive.

    How about we admit that abortion is a much more complicated and much more painful theme than can possibly be described by pro-choice and pro-life (or the inflammatory “anti-choice”)?

    • https://www.facebook.com/danah.gaz danah gaz

      Concern troll is concerned.

      /yawn

      • Stadskind

        Rights have limitations. I have the right to freedom of speech, but I don’t have the right to call people of other races “bad names”. I have the right to defend myself, but my jurisdiction does not allow me to fatally wound someone for breaking into my house without being a direct physical threat to my life. Simply because I very strongly support regulating the methods of abortion which may be used (i.e. injecting a lethal dose of a specific substance into the heart of the fetus, vs. methods where the fetus bleeds to death due to dismemberment) or because I would support anesthesia prior to abortion procedures, it doesn’t make me “anti-choice”. I don’t require a non-belief in the humanity of the fetus in order to cleanse my conscience. Do you?

        However, my belief in its humanity allows me to have actual compassion for the mothers. Can you imagine the sense of guilt, that can overwhelm mothers who made the choice to have abortions to preserve their own life or physical health? Or the sense of loss that a mother, on fertility treatments for many years, experienced when aborting a 28 week old fetus because it would only have excruciating pain outside of the womb? I do not condemn these women for their choices, I admire them for their bravery. But suggesting that the fetus is sub-human, makes light of very real and deep pain. Imagine choosing to abort a 18 week old fetus because it has Downs Syndrome, which is not a life threatening condition. If my own pregnancy would prove to be Downs, I honestly and truly believe that I would choose to abort. Yet simply looking at this as a clump of cells would horrifyingly understate the difficulty of this choice. If I had conceived from rape, I truly believe that I would choose to abort, especially since the monster would most likely get visitation rights. Yet, as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I know many women who were raped, who had abortions and who find it incredibly difficult to deal with, even years later. Shall I tell them it’s okay, don’t worry, it was just medical waste? One woman especially comes to mind, who was unable to conceive consensually with her husband after she received an abortion for a pregnancy which was the result of rape. Should I have told this woman, a dear friend, that she need not worry, despite all her tears it wasn’t human?

        Even women who had abortions which were not medically necessary and did so during the first trimester, may have a very difficult time dealing with the aftermath. Simply suggesting to these women that they need not worry, that it was never such a big deal, is horribly insensitive.

        What shall we say to the women who lost first trimester pregnancies due to natural causes? By the way, this is not a hypothetical situation, when I was recently admitted into hospital, my room mate came in with heavy bleeding, lost the pregnancy and had to receive a D&C. Or does whether the pregnancy is wanted or not determine whether it was a life, or not?

        Exactly what harm can it do to require the abortion to make provision for potential pain by the fetus, except to your sensibilities?

        Interestingly enough, while America’s Roe vs Wade may likely be overturned, a Constitutional Court challenge to abortion is not at all likely here. There is no pro-life picketing in front of abortion clinics and abortions are provided in actual hospitals by actual trained medical doctors, at the state’s expense, when they are needed. My personal opinion is that for certain countries it is not about choice or life, it is about politics and arrogant belief that no one else could possibly be have legitimate concerns if their views differ from yours. Apparently, being willing to respect one another’s opinions works quite well… You might just like to try it…

        • Valde

          Boring.

        • https://www.facebook.com/danah.gaz danah gaz

          I’m so glad you’ve taken up the yoke of compassion for pregnant women. What would they do if they didn’t have you to do their thinking for them?

          Who needs bodily autonomy when they’ve got Internet trolls telling them what’s best for them? After all, they’re not *real* adults like men.

          Here’s an idea. How about you GFY?

      • Valde

        You called it.

        • https://www.facebook.com/danah.gaz danah gaz

          Well, this one is nothing if not predictable.

    • Valde

      At twelve weeks, the fetus has arms and legs. It has five fingers and toes

      so do dolls

      I would never expect any rape victim carry a child to term that she did not choose to.

      So it is only a human being worth protecting if it was created through consensual sex.

      Why on earth did the abortion need to be performed in the THIRD trimester?

      I don’t know moron, maybe because when a 10 year old is raped she doesn’t exactly have the best family life.

      I find it equally offensive that paid abortion providers should be
      able to provide “counseling” despite their clear conflict of interest
      and profit motive.

      Yeah, the counselling that abortion clinics offer is 1) are you sure about this 2) are you being coerced into it 3) adoption is always an option if you’re not sure

      • Stadskind

        “so do dolls”

        How about you read the entire paragraph?

        I said, “Let’s not fool ourselves… At twelve weeks, the fetus has arms and
        legs. It has five fingers and toes. The channels of the inner ear have
        already developed. It cannot possibly be compared with a zygote or
        with sperm and an unfertilized egg. To do so, would be grossly unfair
        and cruel to mothers who have experienced miscarriages.”

        I support the choice to abortion. I do NOT support late term abortions which are not medically necessary. And I categorically reject the gross insensitivity you display in suggesting that losing a pregnancy, whether by choice or through natural causes, can be made equivalent to a doll.

        You say, “So it is only a human being worth protecting if it was created through consensual sex.”

        When did I ever say that? Here, try again…

        “I would never expect any rape victim carry a child to term that she did
        not choose to. As someone who DID experience childhood sexual abuse, I
        wonder though… How supported do those women feel who were raped and then choose to go through with the pregnancy?”

        It was a legitimate question. You do not appear to be likely to be very supportive of a woman who decided to carry the pregnancy to term. Nor is a woman who makes that decision, likely to feel supported by hate-fueled rhetoric, especially if researching abortion online while making her decision.

        Furthermore, I happen to believe that, if not human, the fetus is at the very least a developing human, regardless of whether conceived consensually or through rape and regardless of whether the mother chooses an abortion or not. I do not require a belief in its non-humanity to cleanse my conscience when supporting the choice to have an abortion.

        You say, “I don’t know moron, maybe because when a 10 year old is raped she doesn’t exactly have the best family life.”

        Again, I am doubtful of your ability to see things in the intended context…

        “Of course, putting a 10-year old through child birth is unthinkable.
        But do allow me to at least be horrified: Why on earth did the abortion
        need to be performed in the THIRD trimester? Where were the people who
        were supposed to look out for the interests of this child and why on
        earth did they not perform the abortion earlier? Is no one else
        horrified by the psychological trauma that this late-term abortion
        caused? Let’s not ignore the fact that this is NOT a pro-choice
        situation. The choice of the guardians and the courts, yes, the choice
        of that 10-year-old girl has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.”

        Reading very carefully this time, does it appear to you that I in any way blamed the girl for getting a late term abortion? The point is that I am doubtful that the people who were supposed to be responsible for her care and who were supposed to be acting in her best interests, were appropriately punished for their (apparent) severe deficiencies and (apparent) lack of interest. The fact remains that an abortion certainly did not magically solve all of this little girl’s problems. If I had been her guardian, I would have chosen abortion for her as well, the fact remains that an abortion has nothing to do with HER choice. Even if it is in her best interests, it still remains a further violation of her person and she does not deserve to be a poster child for beliefs which one day, she MIGHT grow up not believing in Whether you want to admit it or not, it is an invasive procedure that is likely to cause her extensive psychological trauma in the future – and she deserves to receive all the support, help and love in the world, which I very much doubt she is getting.

        “Yeah, the counselling that abortion clinics offer is 1) are you sure
        about this 2) are you being coerced into it 3) adoption is always an
        option if you’re not sure”

        And women (and the fetuses) deserve so much more than this… They deserve not to be pawns in the provider’s profit motive. I do not know how much profits American clinics are likely to make. However here, with hundreds of independent clinics, where pro-life picketing is unheard of, where abortion is pretty much not considered a news-worthy topic and is rarely addressed in national news and there are no foreseeable challenges to legislation in our courts, abortion is certainly a very, very profitable business. I do not approve of persons who are, at least as far as my own independent research has shown, unscrupulous and dishonest in their advertising, downplaying possible side-effects, indicating that their procedures are 100% safe, or indicating that their chemical solutions are “approved by the FDA” (the FDA has absolutely no jurisdiction here, by the way) and can be used up to 28 weeks, while the FDA actually only regards this chemical as safe for use up to 8 weeks. All of this while a woman can legally obtain an abortion up to 20 weeks in the case of rape, incest, danger to her life, fetal abnormalities, or if she believes her economic or social status would be harmed by carrying the pregnancy to term and while abortions which are done for valid medical reasons, are provided in actual hospitals by actual properly trained doctors, with NO upper limit on when they can be performed. First trimester abortions are provided in some government clinics and any woman may have an abortion before 13 weeks with no questions asked. Paid abortion providers have absolutely no business providing “counseling”, which judging by their aggressive advertising, is anything but objective.

        • Valde

          Concern troll is noted.

          You do not appear to be likely to be very supportive of a woman who
          decided to carry the pregnancy to term. Nor is a woman who makes that
          decision, likely to feel supported by hate-fueled rhetoric, especially
          if researching abortion online while making her decision.

          Yes, because I support a woman’s right to choose, then CLEARLY I am just panting at the thought that women and babies MIGHT DIE FROM CHILDBIRTH AND PREGNANCY WOOOO

          Like the other person said, you’re a concern troll, and you suck at it.

          What you should be worried about is the USA’s maternal mortality rate, and not what abortion clinics are up to. Maternal and infant mortality rates are quite high because low income women do not have proper access to pre-natal care. But I don’t see you giving two fucks about that? No, of course, it’s all concern trollish as evidenced by your last complete bullshit sentence;

          Paid abortion providers have absolutely no business providing
          “counseling”, which judging by their aggressive advertising, is anything
          but objective.

          Do they advertise during the superbowl, sweetie?

          • HeilMary1

            “Paid abortion providers have absolutely no business providing
            ‘counseling’, which judging by their aggressive advertising, is anything but objective.

            Do they advertise during the superbowl, sweetie?”

            Well we already know the pedophile priest-serving, infant-stealing and-selling Catholic Church has no business “counseling” women and bullying Congress to deny all women affordable contraception.

            And adulterous wife-dumping looksist playboy, gay-basher/anti-choice terrorist Randy Terry has no business running fetal porn pics during half-time!

          • Stadskind

            Perhaps if you acknowledged that the USA is not the only country in the world?

            “Nearly every dustbin on the corner has an advertisement for abortions. Normally right next to “penis enlargement”. And the internet advertising referred is clearly misleading and false – and it is all over.”

            I am concerned about pre-natal health care, but not having tunnel vision, I am actually capable of caring about more than one thing at a time… Why should I not care that abortions are treated so flippantly by these particular providers that they should be advertised with bogus penis enlargement?

          • Valde

            This article is about the USA dumbass.

            Now, tell us how every dustbin in your third world country has abortion ads, so we can verity it ourselves you lying sack of shit.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Did a little research and the only place I can find that might have these kind of ads is South Africa, which would go with Stadskind, which is a Dutch word. But if this is true, Stadskind has neglected to mention one thing–the people who advertise on the streets are not legitimate doctors but back-alley practitioners. Abortion is legal in South Africa during the first trimester but not always accessible, which is what makes women desperate enough to go to these people. allafrica dot com/stories/201206191565 dot html. From the article :

            “Many health facilities do not offer abortion, so women need to be transported to clinics or hospitals in other areas. If the ambulance is full, the first patients who are told to get out are the abortion patients. This is just one of the many ways in which abortion is not prioritised by healthcare workers.”

            She continued, “The punitive treatment of abortion patients in the public health sector is an incentive to seek an abortion elsewhere, from a provider who will help you quickly and who will treat you with kindness and respect. Women are willing to put up with the risks of getting an illegal abortion rather than put up with the constraints and humiliations that often attend to procuring an abortion in the public sector.”

            This is, of course, assuming that our troll was being honest, which is doubtful.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I’m confused by the ‘aggressive advertising’ thing– what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know what you’re talking about?

          • Valde

            The person is all “I am pro-choice” except…you all want to kill babies and don’t really care about women which is why pro-choice = bad.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, I’m calling concern troll too.

          • Valde

            For someone who says s/h/i/t doesn’t live in the USA, and that the USA is not the topic here, s/h/i/t is sure spending a lot of time talking about the USA and certainly seems to know A LOT about the USA

          • Stadskind

            So your argument is that a woman should not be too educated? I do happen to know a bit about the USA, not what I consider to be a great deal, but then again, I do like to be able to make informed choices, so my standards might be too high.

          • Valde

            I do know that you are an obvious concern troll, and keep inventing new things to be offended over, every time we call you on your bullshit.

          • Stadskind

            Actually, I do… Nearly every dustbin on the corner has an advertisement for abortions. Normally right next to “penis enlargement”. And the internet advertising referred is clearly misleading and false – and it is all over.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I don’t know what dustbins you’re talking about–I don’t think you’re talking about the United States because we don’t generally see those things here. I don’t see print ads, tv ads or radio ads for abortion anywhere in Virginia. In fact, when I google abortion, you know what comes up? Keim Centers, which is a crisis pregnancy center, aka fake clinic. So once again you’re talking crap.

          • Stadskind

            If you had bothered to read anything I said (or even remembered your own posts, ironically) which specifically referred to your doubt that I live in a third world country, you would know that I do NOT live in the United States. By the way, Google works by region, so almost all I see is “100% safe, affordable abortion”.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And why does that bother you? Does it make you want to run out and get one? Are doctors in your country accosting women at gunpoint and forcing them into abortion clinics?

          • Stadskind

            Because I actually read through these advertisements and they are false and misleading and blatantly lie to the women? For instance, by saying that their chemical solutions are FDA approved (an entity which has no power of any kind here) and can be used up to 28 weeks, while the FDA actually only considers it safe for the first eight weeks? What is so wrong with saying women should not be lied to?

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you see false advertisements in your country, surely there’s somebody you can complain to in your country? There is in the United States. And this article deals with anti-abortion activism/terrorism in the US. You still don’t have a point.

          • Valde

            You’re so full of shit.

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, please. If you’re going to tell lies, at least try to make them interesting.

    • fiona64

      But not all fathers-to-be, who engaged in sexual activity which was very
      much consensual and who would be willing to financially and emotionally
      provide for their offspring, would approve of their child being
      aborted. So they have absolutely no voice in the matter?

      Any given man is welcome to gestate any pregnancy that happens inside his body.

      Unless the man is the one assuming the physical risks of pregnancy (and, rest assured, pregnancy is not a state of wellness), he should *not* have a say over the ultimate disposition of said pregnancy.

      • Stadskind

        The full paragraph your post relates to:

        “The absence of fathers and the unwillingness of fathers to pay child
        support have been mentioned. Of course, the financial and emotional
        burden of raising children should not fall exclusively on the mother
        simply because she was the vehicle to bring them into this world. Yet I
        wonder, whether feminists realize how their attitudes may be
        encouraging the social phenomenon of absent fathers. Naturally, a
        rapist should have absolutely no say in anything relating to the rape
        victim, or to a child, if there is one. But not all fathers-to-be, who
        engaged in sexual activity which was very much consensual and who would be willing to financially and emotionally provide for their offspring,
        would approve of their child being aborted. So they have absolutely no
        voice in the matter? What do you expect to happen when men are
        completely ignored as being irrelevant?”

        You say, “Any given man is welcome to gestate any pregnancy that happens inside his body.”

        My argument related exclusively to the fact that an extremist feminist view that the pregnancy need not even be DISCUSSED with the father may likely be contributing to the lackadaisical attitude many men have towards their offspring. I never suggested that there should be (or is) a legal obligation for the father’s consent to perform the procedure. I am positing, however, that pregnancy or its termination is a very emotional subject for the father, just as it is for the mother – and that denying the father in the case of consensual relations at least, the opportunity to raise their opinions and concerns, may very well be contributing to a generation of useless “dead-beat” dads.

        “(and, rest assured, pregnancy is not a state of wellness)”

        As someone with Hyperemesis Gravidarum, who had to take unpaid medical leave from work and who can only manage to get through the day because of tablets normally provided to cancer patients during chemo, which only decreases the symptoms, not eliminates them, with serious danger to liver and kidneys due to severe dehydration, who has been admitted into hospital three times, up to a week at a time and who has had to receive several IV treatments not included in the aforementioned, from the emergency unit without admission, I am very well aware of this fact without you informing me, but thank you for your kind assurances. Pregnancy is miserable, granted with no arguments to the contrary.

        I am not suggesting that, because of my choices, all women just need to “soldier on” and grin and bear it – with the illusionary promise of exactly she will forget it all once she gave birth and holds the (nobody mentions that it is screaming) infant in her arms.

        I am suggesting that being pro-choice does NOT equate into a non-belief in the fetus as a developing human (or that the fetus should be considered both in the choice and the method of abortion) or the non-belief in the necessity of proper regulation of (especially the for-profit) abortion industry.

        • Valde

          yawn

      • HeilMary1

        I just came across the scary case of nurse Sandy Wilson whose husband dumped her and probably their son because his c-section delivery caused her horrific abdominal flesh-eating bacteria injuries and a $5 million rehab tab.

    • goatini

      “As someone who is pro-choice”

      Well, no. You’re not.

      • Stadskind

        “I believe that the fetus is, if not a human being, at least a
        developing human being. I also happen to believe that, in certain
        circumstances, including rape, incest, fetal abnormality and danger to
        the mother’s life as well as other medical conditions, in addition to
        early third trimester abortions by choice, the right of the mother
        trumps the rights of the fetus. I’m perfectly okay with my position. I
        wonder why some pro-choice arguments have to not only insist that the
        fetus is not only sub-human, but sub-animal and at the same time insist
        that no one else have the right (based on just as much scientific
        evidence) to believe that it is human, or to even investigate the
        possibility.

        Perhaps some individuals in the pro-choice movement (for I am very
        much pro-choice and your ill-informed and biased opinions won’t change
        that) are so desperate that a fetus is not human. Is it because, IF you
        were presented with undeniable proof of its soul, or whatever, (which I
        am not saying exists or does not exist), you would feel extremely
        uncomfortable with your position, while I am still pro-choice regardless
        of my belief in its humanity?”

        – I don’t think it is necessary for me to put it any differently…

        • Valde

          you keep putting your foot in your mouth cupcake

          • Stadskind

            Then prove it with one actual valid argument that is not simply a character assassination.

          • https://www.facebook.com/danah.gaz danah gaz

            Why? So you can continue your desperate attention seeking, even though you are already painfully transparent? Debate is wasted on you, concern troll.

            Find a hobby.

          • Valde

            Debate is wasted on you, concern troll.

  • Valde

    Plan B One-Step contains levonorgestrel, a hormone found in most birth
    control pills, but at a higher dose. It should be taken within 72 hours
    of unprotected sexual intercourse and is intended to prevent pregnancy
    if other forms of contraception fail, or if no contraception was used,
    according to Teva Women’s Health, the company that makes Plan B.

    The drug mainly prevents pregnancy by stopping the release of an egg
    from the ovary, and by preventing the fertilization of an egg, Dr.
    Christopher Estes, assistant professor of obstetrics and gynecology at
    the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, told
    MyHealthNewsDaily in a 2011 interview.

    While the drug causes changes to the lining of the uterus, it does not
    interfere with the implantation of a fertilized egg, Estes said. In
    fact, in order to stabilize the pregnancies of women who’ve suffered
    miscarriages, doctors give a drug very similar to Plan B, Estes said.

    The drug will not work if a woman is already pregnant. (It has no
    effect on an existing pregnancy, according to Teva.) Emergency
    contraception will not cause an abortion.

    And btw, *possible* does not mean *definite*

  • Ibicella Lutae

    NOBODY who is actually for the protection of unborn life would EVER side with these people. They are hypocrites, murderers, slanderers, liars, and terrorists.

    We have the means to reduce abortions down to the most necessary of operations without harm coming to any woman or unborn child. Easily accessible and affordable contraception, comprehensive sex education, reproductive health care, and sturdy programs to aid poor parents has worked wonders in several countries.

    To insist on oppressive and harmful laws that are again and again proven to drive abortion rates UP and murder women in every country that has tried them is nothing short of barbarism.

    Hating abortion and believing it’s murder does NOT mean you have to side with the Pro-liars. They spit on our values while claiming to be doing “God’s work.”

    NO. You are not. Lying for Jesus is still lying. Satan is laughing with glee.

    We need to see the death of the anti-choice movement and start moving towards REAL compassion for the unborn. We need to make sure our poor men and women can plan for their children at the appropriate time and can raise them right.

  • colleen2

    I’m pretty sure that those inclined to join NAMBLA vote for the political party that tries to prevent an extension of the statute of limitations so that adult victims of childhood rape can find some justice. Those people would be the Catholic church and many Republicans. I’m sure that Kirsten Day and Democrats for Life would agree with their fellow extreme right wing Catholics on this issue as they do on all others. But, then, there are only about 12 DforL and most of them are paid employees.

  • Democats and Demodog

    Appeal it to SCOTUS if needed.

  • Marty Holden

    curious as to when antichoicers are going to find themselves on the wrong end of a weapon or bombing.