Anti-Choice Groups Again Petition Wichita City Council to Re-Zone Area Around South Wind Women’s Center


For the second time this year, representatives from several Kansas anti-choice organizations are urging the Wichita City Council to consider re-zoning the area in which the South Wind Women’s Center operates, a move that would force the newly opened women’s health clinic to close.

According to the Wichita Eagle, individuals from Kansans for Life, Operation Rescue, the Word of Life Church, and the Kansas Coalition for Life argue that the area should be re-zoned to disallow abortions, citing incidents of gun violence that occurred when Dr. George Tiller’s clinic was open in the location that South Wind now occupies. The groups also cited “the unwillingness of South Wind’s security to communicate with them to ‘diffuse violence’ before it occurs” as well as “graphic signs” that children can see if they pass the clinic.

Individuals affiliated with some of these anti-choice groups have been known to protest with graphic signs at the clinic. It is believed that the convicted killer of Dr. Tiller, Scott Roeder, has in the past had ties to Operation Rescue. And Word of Life Church Pastor Rob Rotola was last year involved in a “pro-life memorial” project with Mark Holick, who is currently under a temporary restraining order amid allegations of stalking South Wind Director Julie Burkhart. Holick is said to have pointed a sign at Burkhart’s home that said “Where’s your church?”—an apparent reference to the murder of Dr. Tiller, which occurred at Tiller’s church.

When South Wind opened in April, the clinic brought abortion access back to Wichita for the first time in almost four years, since Dr. Tiller’s clinic closed after his 2009 murder. In 2011, Dr. Mila Means intended to start providing abortion care at her Wichita clinic, but her landlord threatened to evict her if she did. It was also reported earlier this year that a Kansas prison inmate claimed domestic terrorist Angel Dillard asked him to firebomb Means’ home.

The Wichita City Council turned down a previous re-zoning request in February. A Kansans for Life representative said at the time that the council would have approved the request had a blizzard not stopped more people from showing up in support of the measure.

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  • jruwaldt

    I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that anti-choice groups, like conservatives in general, have no concept of irony. “Don’t allow this, because there will be graphic signs and gunshots.” And yet, they claim it’s their freedom of speech, when people complain about how little kids have to see those signs.

    • L-dan

      Irony? How about some concept of shame? Complaining about the graphic signs and gunshots when *you’re a part of the protest bringing graphic signs and inciting violence* is absolutely shameless.

      I don’t see this argument being brought to bear regarding *any* other sort of protest either. Nobody says things like…”Well, that are should just be zoned as not allowing logging/mining because it attracts protesters.” “We don’t really want the President to visit…have you *seen* the signs that show up everywhere he goes? And there could be assassination attempts with such a polarizing figure around!”

  • Phil Baker

    Planned Parent hood says they care about the women who come to them but they continue to fight for less regulations regarding how a abortion clinic should be run. Just the other day a women that had an abortion at one of their clinics left parts of a baby inside the women and made her sterile . And this is one of many incidents involving unsafe conditions at abortion clinics they run. Just to give you a fact update you don’t have to be religious .conservative ,or straight to care about the unborn. We are not anti choice just anti abortion there are other options that are safer cheaper and don’t involve killing a life that most scientists agree starts at conception .see were not anti science either.

    • goatini

      Name of person, location of facility, and physician involved, or you’re lying. My guess is on the latter.

      • Phil Baker

        The women’s name is Ayanna Byer the Planned Parenthood clinic is in Rocky Mountain. Colorado. You can look it up at www. theglobaldispatch.com the story is titled Ayana Byer’s sues Planned Parenthood , Sun Feb 12/ 2013. I doubt you’ll look it up because we lie and you always tell the truth. Right !!!!!!

        • Jennifer Starr

          I don’t wish to be petty, but October of last year is hardly ‘just the other day’, which is what you said in your original statement. Additionally, I can find no proof or statements saying that she was left sterile by the procedure. All surgical procedures carry risks and complications–pointing to medical procedures that were botched and went wrong is not an argument for banning all such procedures.

          • Phil Baker

            You’re response is petty who cares when it happened ( I meant to say I read it the other day ) you people who turn a blind eye to the downside of abortion have no empathy for the women having it at all .

          • Jennifer Starr

            There are downsides to everything. But statistically an abortion, particularly in the first trimester, is one of the safest medical procedures, and safer than carrying to term and giving birth.

          • Phil Baker

            I disagree about how safe you say it is.

          • Jennifer Starr

            You can disagree; the actual facts state otherwise.

          • fiona64

            Facts provided above, with source. Early abortion is 14 times safer than gestation. But, as I said, don’t let actual facts get in the way of your nonsense …

          • Valde

            Disagree all you want, science says abortion is 14x safer than pregnancy.

          • Phil Baker

            the mortality rate for pregnancy is 650 per year out of 3,953,590 that’s less than one thousandth of one percent .

          • Valde

            580k women die worldwide from pregnancy per year.

            that is according to the world health organization

          • Valde

            And it’s not your place to decide how much risk a woman should be willing to take.

            That number is up to 800 a year, and rising.

            And you have no business telling any woman that she should risk death – no matter how small the risk is.

          • fiona64

            Actually, it’s 24 maternal deaths for every 100,000 (I provided the citation above) — shockingly high in the developed world.

            Not that you care … after all, they’re just women.

          • goatini

            Safe, legal pregnancy termination is 14 times safer than ANY full-term pregnancy. Scientific FACT.

          • Valde

            If you had any empathy for women, you would butt out of their private medical decisions.

          • goatini

            The woman is nuts. First, the fetus was the size of a kidney bean, so there could not be any “baby parts” left behind. Second, who knows what she might have done to herself before she went to the hospital? She had two days to injure herself.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I had a friend who nearly died from anesthesia complications during a dental procedure, but that’s hardly an argument for banning dentistry.

          • Phil Baker

            You left out the fact that the ER doctor said that the part of the baby left inside her would have caused her death if they hadn’t operated ASAP.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Surgical and medical procedures go wrong. And sometimes doctors are negligent and make mistakes. That’s what malpractice suits are for. Still not an argument for banning surgeries.

          • Phil Baker

            I never said I was against all surgeries . So you’re saying its okay for a doctor to almost kill someone because of a careless mistake because you can sue the doctor that’s a very insensitive thing to say. This women did not get a pain killer and told the doctor if he did not give her something for the pain he was to not do the abortion and he ignored her wishes and continued and she screamed from the pain all the way through the abortion. Dose that sound right to you. You are so intent on supporting abortion you come out as not caring about the women at all. It would not bother me if you did not respond until you see that having an abortion is not all good.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sorry, buddy, but you don’t get to decide when or how I will reply. Your rationale here is that because this woman was allegedly harmed by an allegedly incompetent doctor while having an abortion , that all abortions must be bad. But bad and negligent doctors exist in every field of medicine, and even with good doctors complications can and do arise, even in the most routine procedures. So if you’re going to say that abortion is bad because things sometimes go wrong, then logically you must say that all medical procedures are bad because things sometimes go wrong. Otherwise you aren’t making much sense–not that you’ve been making all that much sense to begin with.

          • Phil Baker

            Abortion is the taking of a life that separates it from all other medical procedures ,and it is a scientific fact. I have read many stories about women dying or scarred at the hands of abortion doctors through carelessness Gossnel wasn’t alone by any means. Buddy

          • Jennifer Starr

            Simply stating your opinion as ‘scientific fact’ does not make it so. Abortion is one of the safest medical procedures and is statistically safer than giving birth. And hey, buddy, when you can be pregnant, then you get to decide what to do with it. Until then, leave that decision up to the woman.

          • Phil Baker

            No matter how safe you do it ,it is still the taking a life .

          • Jennifer Starr

            So if you believe that it is ‘taking a life’, what do you think should happen, legally, to women who choose to ‘take that life’?

          • Phil Baker

            I’m more interested in stopping abortion then prosecuting women who have them.

          • goatini

            Will never happen. Move to Ireland or Poland if you love to torture women so much. The UN considers forcing women to continue unwanted pregnancies to be cruel and inhuman torture.

          • Ella Warnock

            Why? It’s murder, right? That’s what antis keep telling us. She’s hiring a hitman to take somebody out, no? We don’t let the originator of the hit go riding off into the sunset in any other criminal situation, do we? So what’s different here?

          • Phil Baker

            You want me to be judge and jury towards these women and that is not a place I want to go. I am only interested in saving the life of the unborn . This is my own personal thought what other pro-lifers say is there own thoughts not always in line with what I believe but many take the same position as I do. Weather you accept my thoughts or not is not something that is of concern to me.

          • goatini

            Because to vicious misogynist Baker, women aren’t people. Women are just livestock. Women are just breeding containers. Women’s sole purpose is to be exploited as chattel breeding property. Women’s own lives are worthless and have no value. FACTS.

          • Ella Warnock

            Apparently it is of some concern. You’re still here, aren’t you?

            Why don’t you want to go there, Phil? Why don’t you want to take your beliefs to their logical conclusions? A crime has occurred; someone must pay, no? Just answer the question. And stop flouncing away every time someone asks you to own your bullshit.

          • Aryka Linn

            Why not take the compassionate route and address some of the issues that make it more likely that a woman will consider abortion? Things like poverty, unplanned pregnancy, unpaid maternity leave (or for some jobs, no maternity leave), domestic violence, ultra-expensive daycare costs, lack of health insurance, etc….

            I’d be much more apt to accept the anti-abortion ‘movement’ if they were more concerned with the root causes of unplanned pregnancy and worked to create a society in which women can feel safe, comfortable, and financially secure in the decision to carry a pregnancy to term. Until then, all your side wants to do is force women to give birth against their will and then suffer when they don’t have access to healthy food, safe housing, and adequate medical care. Then you’ll turn around and call them free-loaders who shouldn’t have had kids they couldn’t afford.

          • fiona64

            Because it isn’t about the fetus at all … as we all know. It’s about controlling women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you don’t actually believe that it’s murder, do you?

          • Phil Baker

            I do believe a life is being taken but I believe most if not all responsibility is on the doctor . I am more interested in stopping abortion than prosecuting someone for having an abortion . I do not support anyone that wants to kill a doctor or someone having an abortion or has had one .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Explain to me why you think most if not all responsibility lies with the doctor.

          • Phil Baker

            I believe the doctor knows or should know what he’s doing and that its the taking of a life for those who don’t like some who have left the abortion business I hope they do and leave it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So you don’t think the woman knows what she’s doing? Kind of insulting and patronizing there, Phil.

          • Phil Baker

            A doctor by definition is way more educated in what he is doing and most women who see their baby on a screen do not abort them . Just because I don’t think the way you think I should doesn’t mean I don’t believe abortion is the taking of a life. Its pretty clear your wrong . Stop trying to manipulate what I say you don’t even know me like I don’t know you.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Answer Valde’s question, Phil–what penalty would you recommend for a woman who takes a drug or herb and induces her own abortion?

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m not manipulating what you say. You have stated that abortion is the taking of a life. The taking of a life is a crime, right? Murder. And yet you’re telling me that you don’t believe there should be any penalty, which is not the way murder is typically handled. Leading me to the logical assumption that you don’t actually believe that it is murder.

          • Phil Baker

            I have already stated my position you can come to any conclusion you want . I would support charging to doctor who says yes to doing the abortion but that’s it. I do this because I care about the innocent child. I am not in this to make any women feel guilty but if they do its not on me.

          • Jennifer Starr

            And if a woman ends her pregnancy herself?

          • fiona64

            So, the fetus is “innocent” (despite its lack of conscious, and therefore lack of conscience)? That means the woman must be guilty … at least, in your eyes. So, yes. You are in this to make women feel guilty. Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of women who terminate pregnancies go on with their lives in perfect happiness.

            Oh, wait. The woman doesn’t really exist for you. She’s just a life support system for a uterus … a complete tabula rasa whose sole purpose is to gestate pwecious baybees, whether she wants to or not.

            Misogyny is an ugly trait, Phil.

          • goatini

            Baloney. Your kind exists to try and brainwash innocent women with false blame and false shame.

          • fiona64

            Its pretty clear your wrong

            Its pretty clear what? Your wrong what?

            Why are you constitutionally incapable of differentiating between a possessive and a declarative?

            You have made it very clear that you think women are too stupid to make their own medical decisions without interference from you and your ilk … who, among other things, demand that she undergo completely unnecessary and frequently invasive additional medical tests in an effort to use fear-mongering peripheral appeals to force to remain pregnant.

            BTW, your triple negative here? Just because I don’t think the way you think I should doesn’t mean I don’t believe abortion is the taking of a life. Means that you don’t think abortion is the taking of a life (to use your histrionic term).

            May I suggested Hooked on Phonics? I understand it has helped many people in your predicament.

          • Phil Baker

            I am in no way calling women stupid. sometimes misinformed but I have no way of knowing if someone I don’t know is doing something out of lack of caring or is well informed . I don’t think having a sonogram is going to cause a well informed women to do something she doesn’t want to do unless you think she’s not smart enough .What I was talking about when I said its pretty clear is that I do believe that abortion is the taking of a life. If you don’t like the way I say it to bad .

          • fiona64

            And if you don’t like a woman making reproductive decisions of which you personally disapprove, too bad. (Note correct spelling and usage.)

          • Valde

            Still hoping you will tell us what kind of punishment women should get if they choose to ‘kill their own unborn baby’

            If you believe abortion is murder, and that killing an embryo is the same as killing a live infant, THEN SURELY YOU WILL SAY THAT A WOMAN WHO PERFORMS AN ABORTION ON HER OWN ‘UNBORN BABY’ SHOULD GO TO PRISON FOR LIFE

          • Valde

            If a woman purposely takes a drug or sticks something up her birth canal in order to kill the ‘baby’ inside of her IS SHE GUILTY OF MURDER OR NOT?

          • goatini

            I notice that misogynist Baker always refers to physicians as “he”. Quite telling.

          • fiona64

            How did you even parse that run-on into English? I’m not sure what Phil is getting at — other than that women are stupid and doctors are smart.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m not sure if he even knows what he means with the last bit, but I have noticed that the more defensive he is the less coherent his posts become. This is, of course, assuming that they were really coherent to begin with.

          • Valde

            What if the woman takes a drug and aborts her own pregnancy?

            Should she get life in prison for 1st degree murder?

            yes or no?

          • Phil Baker

            life isn’t always about yes and no answers ,and as I have already said I am more interested in stopping the killing of an( unborn) life. I’m not here to satisfy your demands. So why is your past comments closed trying to hide something.

          • Valde

            If a woman kills her newborn, how much prison time should she get, or should she walk free?

          • fiona64

            I’m not here to satisfy your demands.

            And yet, you expect some pregnant woman whom you’ve never even met to remain pregnant, whether she wishes to or not, to satisfy *your* demands.

            Pardon me; I seem to be suffering from irony poisoning.

          • Valde

            ooo, such irony

          • Jennifer Starr

            What should happen to a woman who hires out a hitman to kill her born child?

          • Valde

            Answer jennifer’s question

            What should happen to a woman who hires out a hitman to kill her born child?

          • Phil Baker

            nope

          • Jennifer Starr

            Are you afraid to answer the question, Phil? It’s really a very simple question. What should happen to a woman who hires out a hitman to kill her born child?

          • Valde

            Yes, and he just admitted to me that abortion IS murder

            However, he thinks that women who commit this form of murder should just walk free…FREE TO MURDER AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Old Phil is really digging himself in even deeper.

          • Valde

            You have stated that abortion is murder.

            You believe that an abortion at 4 weeks is the equivalent of killing a born infant

            Yet, you don’t think women who kill their ‘unborn babies’ should do any jail time whatsoever

            hahhaah

            Clearly, you don’t believe it’s actually murder or you would come right out and say it

            You just want to pretend it’s murder and control women and punish them for being filthy s1uts

          • Jennifer Starr

            You don’t want to answer my question, because it would expose you as a hypocrite who really does not believe that abortion is murder, or that ending a pregnancy is the same as killing a born child.

          • goatini

            “I’m not here to satisfy your demands.”

            Translation: I am here to force you to satisfy MY demands.

          • Valde

            Why don’t you want to charge women with murder if they kill their unborn baby?

            Abortion = infanticide, remember?

          • fiona64

            Really? I guess you’d better share your “scientific fact” with every cardiologist in the world …

            How many peer-reviewed journals have accepted your “scientific fact” and published your papers? At what hospital do you have privileges to practice?

            Oh, wait … you’re just playing doctor …

          • Phil Baker

            another big mouth

          • Valde

            Try to actually refute her argument instead of resorting to insults

            oh wait?

            what’s that I hear?

            YOU HAVE NOTHING UNLESS YOU LITERALLY MAKE SHIT UP

            LOSER

          • fiona64

            What’s the matter, Phil? Unaccustomed to spending time around intelligent women?

            I suggest you get used to it; this site is rife with us.

          • Phil Baker

            Abortion is the taking of a life, you not wanting to admit it dose not show intelligence it shows an inability to face the truth. You bunch are very good at side stepping the issue but it doesn’t change the fact that life starts at conception . Attacking the fetus, baby or what ever you want to call this tiny person dose not change a thing. Scientist’s believe this and ignoring this fact is not showing any intelligence at all. I no one thing you either don’t know its a life or you don’t care.

          • fiona64

            Thus speaketh a semi-literate drone on the internet …

          • Valde

            Scientist’s believe this and ignoring this fact is not showing any intelligence at all

            Scientists do not believe that an embryo is a person, sorry bro

          • goatini

            Trying to silence women. Typical,

          • Valde

            You don’t give a flying fuck about women so stop pretending that you do you homeschooled misogynist creep.

          • Phil Baker

            You are an idiot who likes to hear himself talk crap

          • Valde

            nice rebuttal, moron who can’t spell ‘does’

          • Phil Baker

            Every time your mouth opens useless crap comes out

          • Valde

            yawn

          • Jennifer Starr

            This is getting kind of pathetic, Phil.

          • Valde

            An incompetent doctor did not properly read a sonogram, and missed the fact that one of the twins that a woman was carrying was being slowly strangled by the umbilical cord.

            The baby was born mentally disabled and his healthcare will cost millions in taxpayer dollars until the day he dies. He is 20 and has the mental abilities of a 2 month old.

            Therefore, birth should be outlawed, because it can hurt babies.

            THAT IS YOUR LOGIC.

          • Phil Baker

            It is not even close to what I said and the fact that you missed that dose not suprise me .

          • Jennifer Starr

            It is exactly what you said. And why do you keep mangling the word ‘does’?

          • Phil Baker

            Sorry teach , no it is not but you bunch are so pro-abortion that you don’t even consider for a second the life of the child .

          • Jennifer Starr

            The life of the woman takes precedence over a non-sentient zygote, embryo or fetus.

          • Phil Baker

            That’s only an opinion

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you place the life of a zygote, embryo or fetus over the woman who is pregnant, it’s a fact that you’re a misogynist.

          • fiona64

            So, you admit that you think a zygote should take preference over a born, sapient, sentient woman. Of course, we all know that’s what you think … but your honesty is refreshing amongst your ilk.

          • Ella Warnock

            What did I say in another thread about the emotionally stunted who value zefs over real women? Oh yeah, I said that’s a sign of an immature or disordered internal landscape. One cannot relate to an adult, autonomous woman. One has to have a cipher to project emotions onto — anthropomorphize, if you will.

          • fiona64

            A fetus is not a child.

          • goatini

            All children have already been born, and I consider the life of the WOMAN. Unlike you, to whom she is just livestock.

          • fiona64

            Because he was homeschooled, is my guess.

          • Phil Baker

            Homeschooled children tend to get higher marks in all subjects that includes relating to others and no I went to a public school . That’s probably why I have trouble spelling .Were not all brains like you. HA HA HA

          • Valde

            citation needed, moron

          • fiona64

            Yeah, not so much. http://www dot salon dot com/2012/03/15/homeschooled_and_illiterate/ is just one of the many articles that cites the illiteracy problem amongst homeschooled kids.

            In my experience, the people who are the first to rush to homeschool their kids are the ones least qualified to do so. So, honestly, this article (and the numerous others on the subject) did not surprise me in the slightest.

          • Ella Warnock

            Go visit Libby Anne over at patheos.com. She’s got lots of facts and figures, plus personal experience, about the myth of the super-educated homeschooler. It’s quite the eye opener.

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/

          • Valde

            Nope, that’s your logic you idiot.

          • Phil Baker

            When all logic is exhausted use name calling

          • fiona64

            You are such a liar.

          • goatini

            I call BS on this nut job’s story.

            Clinics advise that women who want to obtain medical terminations should nonetheless fast before the appointment, in case it is found that she is too late for a medical termination, and if a surgical termination needs to be performed. So there is NO WAY this woman was “pressured” into anything she didn’t already know about and previously agree to prior to her ever walking in the door.

            And ALL of the drama she claims is, simply, unbelievable.

            And who knows what she did to herself before she finally went to the (Catholic) hospital? The fetus was the size of a kidney bean. Very, VERY hard to believe that “part of a (sic) baby” could possibly have been “left inside of her”, much less “caused her death” or “made her sterile”. Anyone who knows anything about safe, legal pregnancy termination and Planned Parenthood, who reads this BS story, has to doubt its veracity.

            I doubt she’ll win her BS case.

          • Valde

            And your pro-life lawmakers have proposed that women never get an abortion, even if a dead baby is inside of them – because cows give birth to dead and rotting fetuses, so why not women?

            And those fetuses can cause an infection, but who cares – PRO LIFE VALUES FTW!

          • Phil Baker

            I have never heard a pro-life supporter say anything like that .

          • Jennifer Starr

            From Huffington Post : Georgia state Rep. Terry England compared women to farm animals while discussing an abortion measure on the Georgia state house floor.

            The republican lawmaker was commenting on HB 954 — a measure which would prohibit a woman from having an abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy — when he made the curious comparison, according to The Raw Story.

            “Life gives us many experiences,” England explained. “I’ve had the experience of delivering calves, dead and alive — delivering pigs, dead and alive. … It breaks our hearts to see those animals not make it.”

            There’s your ‘pro-life’ supporter who said that.

          • Phil Baker

            That’s an analogy , he wasn’t saying women are animals . He was saying he felt bad even when animals are delivered dead.

          • Valde

            no, he was saying that women deserve the same treatment as farm animals

          • Phil Baker

            You’re comments are getting dumber and dumber.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Your.

          • Jennifer Starr

            This is what is known as projection, Phil.

          • fiona64

            … says the guy who cannot differentiate between a possessive and a declarative …

          • Jennifer Starr

            No he was making a comparison of women to livestock, which is basically how the ‘pro-life’ faction views women, as walking incubators for the all-blessed fetus.

          • Valde

            I think Phil Baker is our dumbest pro-liar yet.

          • Phil Baker

            I thought you were smarter than to believe that but I guess not.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I’m smarter than to believe that ‘pro-lifers’ have any actual regard for women beyond viewing them as incubators.

          • Phil Baker

            That is in no way is my way of thinking ,I have a very high regard for all the women in my life my wife ,my stepmom and my mom who died of cancer 35 years ago . Most pro-lifers are women and many are women who have had an abortion and have come to find on their own that having an abortion has a long lasting negative impact on them physically and mentally after trusting a doctor at a clinic . I have read of high rates of depression and studies of much higher rates of cancer in women that have abortions. I don’t trust any info I read at first glance whether it comes from pro-life sites or pro-choice sites . To say one is more deserving of trust than the other is something I am not comfortable with. I believe. we both care about these women that believe abortion is the answer I just don’t believe the full truth is out .To make my position clear to you I would not stand in the way of a women who has been raped or who’s life is at risk from having an abortion , but I would want them to have all the info they need to make a intelligent decision .

          • fiona64

            Actually, most anti-choicers are male — which is particularly evident if you look at your “leadership.”

            There is no higher rate of cancer in post-abortive women: http://www dot cancer dot org/cancer/breastcancer/moreinformation/is-abortion-linked-to-breast-cancer.

            Quote (emphasis added): The topic of abortion and breast cancer highlights many of the most challenging aspects of studies of people and how those studies do or do not translate into public health guidelines. The issue of abortion generates passionate viewpoints in many people. Breast cancer is the most common cancer in women aside from skin cancer; and breast cancer is
            the second leading cancer killer in women. Still, the public is not
            well-served by false alarms. At this time, the scientific evidence does not support the notion that abortion of any kind raises the risk of breast cancer or any other type of cancer.

            Nor is there a link to abortion and depression (although there is a link to gestation and depression): http://www dot psyweb dot com/news/depression/no-depression-associated-with-abortion

            Quote: “Our view shows that abortion is not associated with an increase in mental health problems. Women who are carrying an unwanted pregnancy should be reassured that current evidence show the are no more likely to experience mental health problems if they decide to have an abortion than if they decide to give birth,” said Dr. Roch Cantwell, Chair of the Steering Group, and perinatal psychiatrist.

            And then there’s this: Millions of women are not even remotely regretful about their abortions. imnotsorry dot net might be a good place for you to start.

            So, once again, you are full of more shit than a French goose.

          • Valde

            I have a very high regard for all the women in my life my wife ,my stepmom and my mom who died of cancer 35 years ago

            If you had any regard for women you wouldn’t force them to gestate against their will.

            Tell us please, how much jail time should a woman get for procuring an abortion?

          • Ella Warnock

            Ah, but if she gathered all the facts and decided abortion was the intelligent decision, then despite her due process, it would still not be the correct decision and you would not support her, I would imagine. Until and unless she decided on parenthood or adoption, then you would assume that she STILL didn’t have all the facts necessary to come to the result that YOU would prefer.

          • Ella Warnock

            You’re really attempting to straddle the fence here, but that dog won’t hunt. The only people who are deserving of trust in these matters are women. Anything less, and we’ve got a custody-of-the-state issue going on. And keep in mind, a state that can mandate no abortions is one that can eventually end up forcing abortions. Be careful what you wish for.

          • Phil Baker

            The doctors and those who interview the women first also have to be trust worthy . There is not attempt to straddle any fence what ever that pertains to . The law can also go the other way but it doesn’t change the importance of the fight .

          • fiona64

            And, by “trustworthy,” you mean anti-choice, right?

          • goatini

            He reduced female US citizens to the status of livestock. Much like the Catholic Church does.

          • fiona64

            ROFLMAO. I keep forgetting that you don’t rely on the dictionary to help you understand words and instead prefer to “develop your own meaning.”

          • Phil Baker

            If I am wrong about his meaning then he is not speaking for me.

          • fiona64

            You’re the one who said no anti-choicer had ever compared women to livestock … and now, when you’re proven wrong, you want to try to amend the dictionary to suit you? Laughable.

          • Ella Warnock

            Then perhaps he should have employed a more appropriate analogy. Using farm animals as exemplars isn’t ever going to end well.

          • fiona64

            It is amazing to me how often you pro-liars insist that no one on your side of the fence says the things they do …

          • Phil Baker

            neither side can keep track of what each side says

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, yes, we can keep track quite well.

          • fiona64

            He doesn’t seem to realize how easy it is to look at his comment history … just for example.

          • goatini

            I keep very careful track of each and every pro-LIE lie.

          • fiona64

            Actually, it’s remarkably easy to keep track of what the pro-liar side says. In fact, it’s so easy that I have a forced-birther BINGO card. “If you don’t want a baby, keep your legs shut,” “Unborn baby,” “Abortion is murder,” “it’s a baby from the moment of conception” … yeah, pretty easy to keep track.

          • Ella Warnock

            Word.

          • Valde

            A tennessee lawmaker did

            He said his cows and pigs give birth to dead fetuses all the time

            and that if farm animals can do it, so can women

            someone brought up coathanger abortions, and he said well, if a few women die, thats a bummer but morals are more important than women’s lives

          • Phil Baker

            More woman are physically hurt or killed by botched abortions each year than what you call coathanger abortions.

          • Valde

            citation needed

          • goatini

            Baloney.

          • fiona64

            Four days on and Phil can’t bother to provide a citation. Could it be because he’s just making stuff up? And he wonders why we call his side of the fence “pro-lie …”

          • fiona64

            Citation needed. Thank in advance. (This ought to be good …)

          • fiona64

            All surgeries can have complications. Do you want to sue dentists if someone develops dry socket?

          • goatini

            Who knows what she did to herself over the two days that she DIDN’T go to the hospital? I think she’s nuts and a liar.

        • goatini

          Oh, I have heard about this nut job. She was obviously mentally unbalanced when she went to the Planned Parenthood clinic, and I do think that the physicians there should have picked up on what a loon she was, and refused to treat her. But they respected her wishes and trusted HER CHOICES. And I see that the hospital involved is a CATHOLIC hospital (no surprises there), so they have an ideological agenda to falsify, or at the least omit facts from, their records. And who knows what this nut job did to herself over those two days? We’ll see if nut job woman wins her suit. I think not.

          • Phil Baker

            You really like making stuff up don’t you . Everybody else lies but not you bunch ,that’s not very likely.

          • goatini

            The one who seems the most like she is making stuff up is Byer. Her story does not add up.

            And forced-birthers lie constantly. They have NO facts, only false anecdotes, and institutionalized misogyny from radical fundamentalist cults.

          • fiona64

            And, don’t forget, shrieking in all caps (“UNBORN BABY” and “MURDER” and “CONSEQUENCES”). Because shrieking makes it true. ::nods::

        • fiona64

          You know, the only references to this I can find are on anti-choice sites … which makes the allegations questionable at a minimum.

    • goatini

      “you don’t have to be religious .conservative ,or straight to care about the unborn”

      Not sure how “straight” got into your list there, since most gay women don’t obtain pregnancy terminations.

      But it’s very clear that the so-called “religious” and the so-called “conservative” do NOT care one iota for the living, breathing WOMAN, except as chattel breeding livestock property.

      • Phil Baker

        I’m neither religious or support what you say I believe about women but that’s what I expect from extreme pro abortion advocates like yourself .
        I very much care for the living.

        • Valde

          Only anti-natalists are pro-abortion – they don’t want any more people to be born.

          Pro-choicers believe in letting women choose whether or not they want to remain pregnant or get an abortion.

        • Jennifer Starr

          You’re not religious? Because your facebook postings reference god quite often.

          • Phil Baker

            Believing in a personal relationship with God dose not make you religious.

          • Jennifer Starr

            What DOES it make you?

          • Phil Baker

            It makes you a Christian.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Which is a religion.

          • Phil Baker

            Christianity is defined as a religion ,but that dose not make you religious .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Okay, you’re going to have to explain this. By ‘not religious’ do you mean that you don’t attend a church? Don’t follow a denomination? What?

          • Valde

            “does”

          • Phil Baker

            Not

          • Valde

            No, it really is spelled ‘does’ not ‘dose’

          • fiona64

            He also doesn’t understand the difference between “your” and “you’re.” Really pretty embarrassing, for a guy who wants to tell us all kinds of “scientific facts.”

          • Phil Baker

            You’re very good at putting people down dose it make you feel better about you’re self , it certainly dose not add one once of credibility to what you say . My being poor at spelling and grammar can change and will but your attitude ,not so sure.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Do you want to try putting this in legible English, Phil? And why oh why do you keep messing up a simple word like DOES? It’s not a difficult word to spell, Really. I could spell it when I was five. And it’s ‘yourself’. One word, no apostrophe.

          • Phil Baker

            Boy you bunch get mad over everything.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No, this isn’t mad. This is just amusement and general head-shaking at a display of typical forced-birther hypocrisy.

          • Valde

            No, we think you’re an idiot with the IQ of a gnat.

          • fiona64

            Do you really imagine we’re mad over this? Amused, yes. Mad? Not in the slightest. I actually kind of feel sorry for you.

          • Phil Baker

            I don’t imagine it you are angry a lot , you say not in the slightest . You have way to much pride.

          • fiona64

            … says the guy with enough hubris to make a Greek immortal blush …

            Of course, on Planet Phil, “ladies” never get to have any feelings that aren’t smiley/happy and accommodating … so the idea that we might be amused by you, or perhaps pity you, never occurs. Instead, it has to be that we’re “angry,” or else we would kowtow to your demands.

            Poor Phil. It must really suck to be you, since deciding what my feelings are (in direct contravention of, you know, reality) is just one more choice you don’t get to make for me.

          • Valde

            Clearly, it is his ‘signature flourish’

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, I can tell a lot about people’s level of education and, therefore, credibility by how they write.

            Let me put it this way: I wouldn’t take your advice on what vegetable to eat for dinner, let alone medical matters. You probably wouldn’t know the difference between peas and peace, since you don’t know the difference between dose and does.

          • Valde

            “dose” it make you feel better to punish women for the crime of being born female with forced pregnancies?

          • goatini

            You came here with the specific purpose of putting women down for asserting self-determination and personal bodily autonomy. Don’t whine about how poor YOU is getting “put down” – just more of your vile projection of your own faults upon your innocent opposition.

          • goatini

            You are no Christian, Baker. The Christ would not know you. You’re a parody of a “Christian”, a mean, vicious man who hates women who want more from life than being chattel property livestock under Church-approved male ownership. The Christ had many female friends and disciples. The Catholic Church cut all that out, and made the Apostle To The Apostles a prostitute, because they hated and feared women, like you do.

          • fiona64

            I’m taking a social psychology course through Wesleyan University, and it’s pretty fascinating. It appears that people really do believe their behaviors are consistent with their expressed attitudes far more often than they really are — which explains these self-proclaimed Christians who behave in ways diametrically opposed to the attitudes of the man they claim to follow.

          • Phil Baker

            Christ would not support abortion . But he did come to save and offer forgiveness . he very much cherished life and he was against the religious people of the day who tried to control people with all their rules a regulations. Christ did not push religion he offered a relationship with himself . I am not saying I follow him fully but that is what I want to do. You are not my judge no man or women is, just God. But I do listen to what you say no matter how mean it is.

          • goatini

            Who made you the judge of free, independent, autonomous women living self-determined lives, you judgmental creep?

          • Phil Baker

            where I am as a Christian is between God and me. I know I am falling short of what Christ expects of me. I am not a Catholic. Jesus many times showed great love towards women . I do not believe Jesus would sanction abortion . Life was created by God so it must be treasured not taken away . And that starts with the unborn. I don’t claim to speak directly for God ,I try to understand his word the best I can.

          • fiona64

            Well, then, I suggest that you hie yourself over to the book of Numbers, in which a woman is made to consume an abortifacient.

            Abortion was well-known and commonly practiced in the ancient world, Phil.

          • Phil Baker

            Just because its in the bible dose not make it approved by God . God’s purpose was to change people from the inside out not just change the way they acted . but change their whole life through a relationship with him.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So the Bible is not the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God? Guess all those pastors and Sunday school teachers must have been lying, then.

          • Valde

            Your god approved of slavery, genocide, and child rape.

          • Phil Baker

            You are extremely judgemental and mean and vicious. Your opinion of whether I am a Christian or not is not of any value to me .

          • fiona64

            How are you doing with feeding the hungry, comforting the afflicted, and loving your neighbor as yourself?

            Or do you think that standing outside a women’s health clinic and shrieking like a rabid weasel at the women going in for their health exams, contraception, etc., is a reasonable substitute?

          • Phil Baker

            I don’t answer to you , what I have done is non of you business.You forgot to mention abortions that’s where the money is. Shrieking like a rabid weasel that’s pretty funny.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Sure. My friend’s abortion cost her $700, while a hospital childbirth, even without complications, can run into five figures and adoption can run into five and even six figures. But abortion–that’s obviously where all the money is.

            Tell me,Phil–is there actual life on your planet?

          • fiona64

            You’re full of crap. There is far more money to be earned in labor & delivery. The majority of physicians who work at these women’s health centers do so pro bono … in other words, they are volunteering. So yeah, not exactly a big money-maker there.

            So, you can’t answer the question, eh? Must be because you aren’t doing the three simple things that Jesus asked of his followers and are instead harassing women on the street.

            Just like the social psychology course I’m taking indicated, the majority of people who espouse a belief do not act in accordance therewith — and that seems particularly to be the case with modern-day self-proclaimed Christians, according to a couple of studies — to say nothing of my personal observations.

          • Valde

            I can’t decide who is dumber – Phil or Myintx.

          • Jennifer Starr

            I think it could be a toss-up

          • Valde

            The average birth in the USA as paid by insurance companies costs 20k-40k.

            The average abortion, as paid by the woman, if she can even afford it (and many women have to beg for donatins) is 400-800$

          • goatini

            Where the money IS, is in the billion-dollar global human trafficking ADOPTION syndicate. $10K-$50K per sellable unit of inventory – said inventory obtained in collusion with the so-called “crisis pregnancy centers”, aka inventory aggregation funnels for the adoption syndicate.

          • Valde

            You are extremely judgemental and mean and vicious.

            You are extremely judgmental and mean and vicious towards women with an unwanted pregnancy.

          • Phil Baker

            If your not one of them then I guess its none of your business .

          • Valde

            Explain again why you don’t think abortion is murder Phil?

          • Phil Baker

            Never said it wasn’t murder Valde.

          • Valde

            Ok, so you believe it IS murder

            However, you don’t think that women who choose to MURDER THEIR UNBORN BABIES SHOULD FACE ANY FORM OF PUNISHMENT EVER

            That is some fine logic there, Phil.

          • Jennifer Starr

            But it’s a ‘special’ kind of murder, right? One where the woman who commissions and pays someone else to do it should be able to walk free? Which wouldn’t happen if she paid a hitman to murder her born child. Why do you think that is, Phil?

          • fiona64

            So, if it’s murder (which is a crime), what punishment should the woman receive for terminating her pregnancy?

            I’m very curious as to whether you’ve thought your position out to its logical conclusion, Phil.

          • Phil Baker

            Laws are meant to discourage crime so if putting abortion doctors in prison would deter abortions that would seem to satisfy the law for now .As far as the women who have them we are happy just to get them out of the abortion doctors hands and save the lives of millions of unborn children. As far as prosecuting the women for murder at this time would be of no use. As for the long term I don’t know its right now I’m concerned about . When slavery was abolished there was no need to prosecute the problem was taken care of but those who continued to have slaves then the law came after them .

          • fiona64

            So, you haven’t thought your position out to its logical conclusion, then.

            Just a hint for you, Phil. Even if, in some highly unlikely scenario, Roe v. Wade is overturned? Women will still get abortions.

            Oh, and one other hint: The Handmaid’s Tale is a dystopian novel, not an instruction manual.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Very poor analogy, Phil–very poor. Women are not held as prisoners by doctors or pulled into clinics at gunpoint and forced to have abortions–they have to actually make the decision, call, make an appointment, come to the clinic and pay to have the medical procedure done. And they do so quite willingly. Many women who have abortions already have children–they know what pregnancy is and they know what ending a pregnancy means. They’re not stupid and they’re not being misled–they’re making their own decision freely. To assume otherwise is patronizing and very insulting.

            You have said that there is no difference between ending a pregnancy and murdering a born infant. I don’t know which planet you inhabit, but in our world, if a woman pays someone to murder her born child, she is charged with murder as well. The fact that you don’t think she should be charged proves that you don’t actually think it’s murder at all.

          • Valde

            so, once your dream comes true and RvW is overturned and abortion is made illegal, what should the punishment be if a woman kills her own ‘unborn baby’ ?

          • goatini

            So, why do you want to enslave women with unwanted pregnancy in gestational slavery against their will? You are on the side of the slaveowners.

          • fiona64

            Actually, laws are meant to protect the rights of victims. Your grounding in legality is clearly just as deep as your grounding in medicine.

          • Phil Baker

            Your splitting hairs.You know as well as I do that some laws protect the rights of victims and are also meant to discourage crime and to punish those who commit them . I know you want to attack me any way you can ,but this is really reaching.

          • fiona64

            No, it’s not reaching in the slightest. The reason we have laws is to protect the rights of victims. We don’t have laws against robbery, for example, to deter people from committing robbery; we have laws against robbery to protect victims of robbery. That’s what the sentencing/punishment phase is about: restitution/closure *for the victims.* We don’t have laws against domestic violence to deter domestic violence, either; those laws exist to protect the victims.

            I could go on, and on, and on … but there’s really no reason.

            The vast majority of laws are created around the harm principle, as explained here: http://civilliberty dot about dot com/od/historyprofiles/tp/Why-Laws-Exist.htm

            Oh, and then there’s this: http://plato dot stanford dot edu/entries/law-limits/

            So, you don’t have to take my word for it.

          • fiona64

            If you’re not the pregnant woman, it’s none of your business .. but that doesn’t stop you standing outside a clinic and wailing like a bean sidhe, does it?

          • Valde

            You are not a pregnant woman, so it is none of YOUR business what they do with their bodies.

          • Phil Baker

            I will continue to fight for the unborn child and you can continue to tell women getting pregnant is the worst thing in the world they could ever do .

          • Valde

            Yes Phil, we all know you hate women and love embryos.

          • goatini

            No one else’s pregnancy, except your own, is any of your business.

          • goatini

            No, Baker, YOU are the judgmental, mean and vicious man who hates women with the rights to self-determination, personal bodily autonomy, and privacy in personal medical decisions – the same rights that YOU and every other MALE would fight civil war in the streets to protect, were they threatened like YOU and others like you threaten those of women.

            You have a nerve, coming to a pro-choice, pro-women, pro-freedom, pro-civil rights website, and spewing mean, vicious, judgmental garbage, and then accusing those who call you out on your BS of the same vile misbehavior that YOU are guilty of.

            And again, you are no Christian. The Christ would not know you.

          • fiona64

            Excuse me for a moment:

            BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • fiona64

            And his favorite websites include LieSiteNews and LieAction. Feh.

        • goatini

          You just proved that you care only for males, and for fetuses. You think women are nothing more than chattel breeding livestock property that should be under Church-approved male ownership for breeding purposes. You don’t care about the living at all, unless they are male, or a fetus.

    • Jennifer Starr

      Heavy on the fear-mongering, light on any actual facts, but that’s pretty much par for the course with the ‘pro-life’ side. And as for the ‘regulations’ proposed by anti-choice legislators, they have nothing to do with making abortion safer and everything to do with making it harder for clinics to stay open and for women to get the healthcare they need.

      • Phil Baker

        That’s funny the pro-life side says the same about you (light on the facts ) actually the regulations they are fighting are the same laws for any place that dose surgery . Besides they make very good money doing abortions and that’s a fact .

        • Jennifer Starr

          Oh, the shock and horror! Doctors who actually charge for services? Who make money? Whoever heard of such a thing? / snark

          And actually no–TRAP laws are not because these ‘pro-lifers’ care about women and want to make abortion safer. No.. They’re targeting abortion facilities with regulations that are overly burdensome and often impossible to comply with in an attempt to force their closure. At least be honest and admit that’s the goal.

          • Phil Baker

            Kermit Gosnell was in a state that had many pro-abortion laws created by a pro-abortion government and the hospitals and other clinics in the area including planned parenthood new about him. He was well know but nobody did anything if there were proper inspections he probably would have been stopped a lot sooner. And nobody believes he’s the only rotten apple in the abortion business .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Being more than a little disingenuous here, Phil. Admit it–you and other so-called ‘pro-lifers’ don’t care about clinics being safer. You don’t care about making abortion procedures safer for the woman. You just want them closed down. That’s what TRAP laws are about. We all know it, why don’t you just be honest and admit it.

          • fiona64

            Citation needed. Thank in advance.

        • Jennifer Starr

          I think it was actually Anti-choice terrorist Joe Scheidler who actually bragged that he and his group could make the rate of complications at a clinic go up by standing outside of the clinic and protesting. He wanted women to have complications, or he wouldn’t have been outside of the clinic in the first place.

          • Phil Baker

            I don’t know how standing outside a clinic causes complication I do know it lowers and sometimes stops abortions and has closed clinics. I would not do it with the thought of causing harm.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Ah, but that’s what Mr. Scheidler bragged about. Ultimately that’s what ‘pro-life’ is about–harassing and terrorizing women.

          • Phil Baker

            Then why are most sidewalk counsellor’s women and pretty much all pregnancy help center’s run by women.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Citation needed for most of them being women, because all I usually see outside of the clinics are old white men, but you’re fooling yourself if you think that women can’t be as nasty as the men. They can be. Women sidewalk ‘counselors’ (a misnomer if there ever was one;what they do cannot be called actual counseling) can harass and intimidate with the best of them, and many of them aren’t what you call ‘compos mentis’ (look up Mary Jost of Rochester Pro-Life and read her illiterate rantings). And why does Sharon ‘Babysaver’ on youtube rattle off the license plate numbers of everyone entering and leaving the clinic? Probably to encourage someone watching the videos to stalk and terrorize those people–you think? There’s no other good reason for her to do that. And Pregnancy ‘Help’ Centers don’t actually help squat. They lie, shame and coerce women into adoptions but they don’t help. Sure, if you take one of their bible classes you might get a few soiled baby clothes, cheap diapers and a secondhand stroller, but that’snot actually help.

          • Jennifer Starr

            From a 1985 Chicago Tribune article:

            How uncivil may be indicated by a scuffle that occurred last July 8 in Dallas. Scheidler had been invited by local pro-lifers, who arranged for two or three busloads of protesters, including Scheidler`s cousin, the bishop of Dallas, to demonstrate at the Root Street Clinic, which had been firebombed a month before. They were met by counter demonstrators led by Bill Baird, who had been invited to Dallas by the clinic.

            Despite the presence of police, Scheidler was allowed to put his trusty bullhorn to the windows of the clinic, where he led the crowd in chanting:

            “Run, baby, run. Your mother`s going to kill you,“ and “Close your legs, wh@re.“

            Informed, as he had been before, that the presence of demonstrators outside abortion clinics invariably makes the patients and staff inside so tense as to raise the rate of medical complications, Scheidler retorted,

            “Good.“

            In his book he cites studies showing the rate of complications to be as much as 400 percent higher when pickets are present. “It`s obvious we should be there every time they operate,“ he adds.

            There’s a word for the behavior in the article above, Phil, and it’s called terrorism. That’s what your side engages in. And that’s one of the many, many reasons that I am no longer ‘pro-life’.

          • Phil Baker

            This man in no way speaks for me and most groups are backing off of aggressive moves and yelling and I hope it continues through all groups.

          • Jennifer Starr

            The only reason that blockades and aggressive tactics have dwindled is because of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, passed in 1994–not because your movement has suddenly become ‘kinder and gentler’. Even today, so called ‘non-violent pro-lifers’ still engage in stalking activities such as photographing doctors and clinic workers, posting their addresses online and protesting in front of their homes. The terrorism remains.

          • fiona64

            Yeah … to say nothing of these so-called “pro-life” individuals murdering physicians in church, blowing up their clinics and homes, etc. It is terrorism, pure and simple.

          • Valde

            You don’t support prison for women who ‘murder’ their ‘unborn babies’ – you just want to see them dead or disabled from pregnancy instead.

          • Phil Baker

            I never said that.

          • Valde

            You’ve implied it this whole time.

            YOU and you alone Phil, are the only one who can decide how much risk a woman should undergo from a pregnancy.

            You despise women, it’s obvious.

          • fiona64

            Wow … another Milgram Experiment #5 moment: “That’s not my responsibility.” Yeah, actually, it is. Scheidler was one of the leaders of your anti-choice movement: you don’t get to wriggle out of that.

          • Phil Baker

            You can’t hold someone responsible for something they have no control over , that’s insane . I do not belong to any organisation but I will look him up and complain if your right .You say he was a leader.?

          • Jennifer Starr

            With a wealth of information at your fingertips via the internet, there’s absolutely no excuse for playing dumb and not knowing the history and leaders of the movement which you claim to follow. Of course the anti-choice movement has tried to whitewash him and make him into ‘kindly, benign Papa Scheidler’–they’ve tried to give the same whitewash to convicted bomber Cheryl Sullenger as well, claiming that she’s ‘renounced violence’. But it isn’t difficult to look them up and find out what kind of terrorists they actually are. And that’s what lies at the heart of your movement, Phil. Terrorism.

          • Phil Baker

            No body knows everything , you can say i’m playing dumb but it makes no sense to argue this point if you still think I am lying . You want the truth but when I give it to you and you doubt it .you are very confusing or should I say confused and desperate .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Hardly confused or desperate, more like amused and bemused at your utter ignorance of–well, pretty much everything. But I would imagine you get that quite a lot, don’t you?

          • Phil Baker

            No actually I don’t , but I am just starting at this. But your opinion of me is not really that important to me. I do find you desperate and pretty funny at times and kind of sad.

          • fiona64

            Funny … I think exactly the same of you. Of course, I also add a large dollop of pity.

          • Valde

            At least fiona isn’t a fat, stupid, middle aged misogynist loser with the IQ of a gnat.

          • fiona64

            Well, I am middle-aged … and a trifle more plump than I’d like to be.

          • fiona64

            So, you’re not “playing” dumb then …

          • Valde

            You’re a dumbass

          • fiona64

            Not only *was* he a leader, he still is. In fact, he’s the national director of one of the biggest anti-choice organizations in the country.

            http://prolifeaction dot org/about/joe.php

            So, put your money where your mouth is … I’ll look forward to seeing you post a copy of your letter of complaint here.

          • Valde

            Yet you’d hold a rape victim responsible for her rapist offspring.

            Asshole.

          • Phil Baker

            I never said that and what’s with the asshole comment get out of the wrong side of the bed.

          • Valde

            No, it’s because you quite clearly view women as second class citizens.

            So, would you force a rape victim to carry a rape pregnancy to term?

          • Phil Baker

            No I would not . My desire is to not portray women as second class citizens , the life of the unborn child is still worthy of protection .

          • Valde

            By forcing a woman – or a rape victim- to gestate a pregnancy against their will YOU ARE BY DEFINITION TREATING WOMEN AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

            Why do you want to force 8 year old rape victims to carry every rape pregnancy to term Phil? Why do you despise women so much/

          • Phil Baker

            Are you blind I said I would not vote for a law that would make it illegal for a women who has been raped to have an abortion. Your second class citizen comments are getting old.

          • fiona64

            So, it’s not a “widdle baybee” if a woman is raped, but if that nasty tramp didn’t keep her legs together and had sex just for fun, well, then it’s a “baybee” and she needs to “deal with the consequences” of being punished with an unwanted pregnancy?

            Why don’t you just come right out and say that you think every post-abortive woman is a dumb tramp, Phil? Because that’s what your weasel-words really mean … despite all of the factual evidence to the contrary.

            Oh, wait. You don’t have to believe facts, or even what the dictionary says words mean. I keep forgetting that.

          • Valde

            So embryos are only ‘babies’ with the right to life if the woman had consensual sex.

            But if the woman was raped, the ‘baby’ doesn’t have a right to life.

            Can you see the flaw in your logic there Phil?

            Btw, thanks for *proving* that your opposition to abortion is entirely about controlling female sexuality.

          • goatini

            Yep. Says it all. It’s ALL about controlling, oppressing and exploiting women.

          • goatini

            Placing higher value on, and granting MORE rights to, a single-celled organism, than to the living, breathing WOMAN, IS sentencing female US citizens to second-class citizenship, to be exploited and degraded as chattel property breeding livestock with NO rights.

          • Phil Baker

            You allow people like that to effect what you believe .

          • Jennifer Starr

            What I believe now as opposed to what I believed then was affected by a variety of factors, of which Mr. Scheidler and his ilk played a small part. Another part has to do with my Aunt being lied to by a pregnancy health center ‘volunteer’–a lie about her ectopic pregnancy that very nearly killed her. And let’s just say that I started to see the true face behind your movement, and I was repulsed.

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, Jennifer and I used to be bible-thumping anti-choicers just like you. I can’t speak for her, but I can tell you that getting out of high school and into the real world, and meeting people from other cultures, etc., taught me that life was not nearly as simplistic as I thought.

            So, with a strong dose of critical thinking, an excellent education (majoring in anthropology), and some self-awareness, I realized that I was in no position to make other people’s medical decisions for them.

            You might consider doing some of those same things yourself …

          • fiona64

            Most “Crisis Pregnancy Centers” are run by the Catholic church … with direct connections to their religious adoption mills. In case you missed the memo, the Catholic church is run by men.

            Numerous sources:

            http://www dot bostonglobe dot com/arts/books/2013/04/21/reviews-favorite-child-catchers-kathryn-joyce-dinosaurs-home-brian-nancy-zafris-switek-beloved-brontosaurus-road-with-old-bones-new-science/2rg1Y0UNmJhWGXBLs8eMkK/story.html

            http://thebottomline dot as dot ucsb dot edu/2012/02/religiously-affiliated-health-clinic-advertises-incorrect-information-to-ucsb-students

            http://vimeo dot com/5170237

            http://www dot villagevoice dot com/2002-08-06/news/nation/full/

            http://www dot huffingtonpost dot com/caitlin-bancroft/crisis-pregnancy-center_b_3763196.html

            Sidewalk “counselors” are just shrieking harridans … and CPC volunteers are just liars in white coats who want to pretend they are doctors.

            There’s your answer.

          • Phil Baker

            So your saying the women who work at them are to stupid to think for them selves. besides you said most are run by the Catholic Church. What about the pro-life site Atheists For Life and the pro-life gay site .

          • Jennifer Starr

            She said ‘most’, Phil. Not all. Do you know the difference between ‘most’ and ‘all’?

          • Phil Baker

            I said most ,

          • Jennifer Starr

            Most by the mostly male Catholic Church. Not by women. Fiona was right, Phil. And you were wrong.

          • fiona64

            Do you imagine that there are no gay Catholics?

            And citing two places on the internet does not change the reality that the majority of so-called crisis pregnancy centers are operated by the Catholic Church. For example, White Rose Women’s Center, in Dallas, TX, is a front for St. Joseph’s Helpers, a Roman Catholic adoption mill

            You can read about more such affiliations here: http://rcrc doot org/issues/crisis_pregnancy_centers.cfm

            Quote: Most CPCs are run by two chains that are explicitly evangelical–Care
            Net and Heartbeat International. Some CPCs are run by Catholic
            Charities, other Catholic social agencies, organizations and churches.
            Faithful for Life, a 1995 statement by the U.S. Conference of Catholic
            Bishops that provides criteria for CPCs, states that centers will “have
            policies and practices that do not advise, provide or refer for
            abortion, abortifacients, or artificial contraceptives.” A third major
            chain, Birthright International, has a stated philosophy of
            non-evangelism.

          • Phil Baker

            Fighting abortion and helping women is one thing the Catholic Church is good at .

          • fiona64

            It’s not “helping women” in the least. The Catholic church is, however, really good at moving kiddy-diddling priests from parish to parish to cover up their crimes.

          • Phil Baker

            Crises Pregnancy Centre’s have helped a lot of women at the women’s choice not yours or mine . As far as the Catholic church’s response to pedophile in its ranks that has happened in sports , children’s groups , schools you name it . The church I go to has windows on all doors and women who go around making sure nothing is going wrong during Sunday school or any other activity plus of course passing police checks for all those involved or no permission is granted . This in no way excuses any one who looks the other way and ignores the law by not reporting any incident . I know pro- choice people like to attack the centres ,but it dose not help your cause to demand they do things right and fight for less safety rules for abortion clinics . All businesses have to follow inspections ,controls and penalties . I had a painting company and we were constantly doing training and had many controls on us for safety reasons . Gosnell went on for ever and many new he was breaking the law and he only got caught because of suspicion of selling drugs.

          • Jennifer Starr

            CPCs pressure, harass, try to coerce women into giving their babies up for adoption and give women inaccurate and dangerous medical information regarding pregnancy, contraception, etc. What they don’t do, and what they have never done, is help.

          • fiona64

            I swear, talking to you is like dealing with a particularly slow four-year-old. Maybe it’s from all the VOCs you’ve inhaled as a painter …

            I’ve already posted the links that demonstrate CPCs spread misinformation and try to force women to gestate pregnancies for what amounts to human trafficking in Caucasian infants.

            And no one is fighting for “less [sic] safety rules” for women’s health clinics. What we are fighting *against* is the idiotic, medically unnecessary barriers to care that you and your ilk try to put into place in order to try to prevent women from making their own medical decisions (e.g., telling women that abortion will lead to breast cancer, despite the fact that this is patently false — as I have already explained with sources).

            You are using a classic tu quoque argument about the immense numbers of pedophile priests in the Catholic church. While it is true that the issue is one of access, and that little league coaches, etc., are also amongst likely pedophile as a result, the point is that the Catholic church *deliberately* moved these pedophiles to new parishes when complaints of their crimes were received. How many kiddy-diddling little league coaches do you imagine just get passed on to other teams, Phil?

          • Phil Baker

            Your information concerning Crises Pregnancy Centers is just bad information . How did Gosnell happen if clinics are so safe in a pro- choice state full of pro-choice laws . Your comments about the catholic church have more to do with your hatred for religion .Painting all Catholics with the same brush is unfair and wrong . That’s like saying all pro- choice people are lying, hey maybe your right.

          • fiona64

            News flash, sweetie: pro-choice groups were *begging* investigators to get involved in the Gosnell case.

            You have yet to provide a source for your assertions about Pennsylvania, despite me asking for it nearly a week ago. Why is that?

            Your statement that I hate religion is flat-out bullsh!t … just like everything else you say. What I do dislike immensely is people who believe that their religion should be the basis for law in this secular nation.

            PS: You have no idea what tu quoque is, do you? Because you just used it again in your “response” to me.

          • Valde

            The RCC protects their pedo priests because in the eyes of the vatican even a rapist priest is CLOSER TO GOD than a little kid who’s just been brutally raped over months, even years.

          • goatini

            As a Catholic with 60 years tenure, let me know when the Catholic Church plans to accept women as full member of the Church. I’m still recovering from the misogynist self-hatred head trip they put me through.

          • goatini

            When you get right down to it – yes, they are too stupid to think for themselves. Also too rude to respect the legal, civil, human and Constitutional rights of others.

          • goatini

            No such thing as a “sidewalk counselor”. ANYONE who attempts to obstruct and interfere with patients attempting to obtain legal medical care of THEIR choice is a stalker and harasser – which stalking and harassing should be illegal in each and every municipality across the country.

          • goatini

            Harassing, stalking, and interfering with patients attempting to obtain medical care CAUSES HARM. Anyone who attempts to interfere with ANYONE obtaining medical care should be arrested and go to jail.

          • fiona64

            Yeah, because stalking, harassing, shouting at … oh yeah, and shooting at doctors and clinic escorts … is not even remotely stressful for those being stalked, harassed, shouted and shot at.

            What a dimwit.

          • Jennifer Starr

            If you have time (and a very strong stomach), look up a ‘sidewalk counselor’ on youtube by the name of Sharon BabySaver. I can’t stomach more than maybe five minutes of her tripe, but she’s an excellent example of an extremely obnoxious antichoice fanatic.

        • fiona64

          Really? Then why doesn’t an oral surgeon have to have admitting privileges at a hospital?

          Pro-tip: physicians often provide their services pro bono to women’s health clinics, because those clinics serve the underprivileged. In case you were homeschooled, that means that the doctor is providing his or her time at no charge.

    • WagatweRHRC

      “We are not anti choice just anti abortion”

      So you’re anti-people having the CHOICE of abortion.

      Sounds like anti-choice to me.

      • Phil Baker

        Abortion isn’t the only choice and yes I am against abortion ,its the taking of a life and that is a scientific fact like it or not.

        • Jennifer Starr

          No that’s not a scientific fact, sorry. And yes, we are aware that there are other choices, and we support women being able to make the choice that’s best for them.

        • Valde

          You are in favour of forced pregnancy that IS anti-choice.

          • Phil Baker

            Forced pregnancy ,are you saying I go around forcing women to get pregnant .Where do you come up with such stupidity. The women made that choice all on her own .

          • Valde

            You are in favour of forcing women to remain pregnant against their will.

          • fiona64

            Consenting to sexual intercourse is not the same as consenting to pregnancy. All forms of contraception, up to and including surgical sterilization, can and do fail.

          • Phil Baker

            Having sex is the only way to get pregnant we live in a world were we tend to not think about the results of our actions . I doubt that a very high rate of pregnancy is from failed contraception . I know many who this has happened to and they are very happy with the child they have. I do believe that there should be proper help and support for those who need it and are not using abortion as a form of contraception. According to the CDC many do .

          • fiona64

            You are so full of crap. Aside from the fact that people can get pregnant through IVF (hence, sex is not the only way to get pregnant), you clearly have no concept about post-abortive women (other than your fundamental attribution error that they’re all lazy, irresponsible tramps who, nevertheless, should be forced to bear children to satisfy your agenda):

            http://www dot guttmacher dot org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

            Pertinent facts from this source that prove you wrong:

            – About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children. [6]

            – Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive
            method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became
            pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users
            report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users
            and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

            – Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100%
            of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no
            children).[6]

          • Arekushieru

            If having sex was the only way to get pregnant, it would be the only way for WOMEN. Funny how you, as a male anti-choicer, forgot that part. Oh… wait… no, it’s not. Legislating a biological accident that happens ONLY in the female sex is sexism and misogyny. SO fucking sorry.

          • Phil Baker

            In most cases it is .

          • goatini

            You want to force women with unwanted pregnancies to REMAIN pregnant in gestational slavery.

          • Ella Warnock

            Oh, wait a minute, hold the phone . . . I’m sensing . . . what is it . . . oh, YEAH! It’s only a matter of time til we get to “that woman made that choice all on her own” by . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . not keeping her legs shut! BOOM!

          • Phil Baker

            If you take away responsibility from the man and the women which you can’t then you have a problem . You think bring this up is wrong but it is were the problem starts . You think the government or should I say the tax payer should pay for a person’s lack of thought for the future . But with over one million abortions a year in the state alone in a time when money and the economy is low it makes no cense .

          • fiona64

            Um, Phil? The Hyde Amendment means that you are not paying for anyone’s abortion.

            And the “responsibility” argument really doesn’t affect men … seeing as how you can’t get pregnant. So, what you’re really saying is ::wait for it:: if she didn’t want a baby, she should have kept her legs shut. Right on schedule!

          • Phil Baker

            Obama’s new medical insurance will change that .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, no– it won’t change that at all.

          • Phil Baker

            Company’s will have to pay for abortions through their premiums.

          • Jennifer Starr

            No–no they won’t. If you read something besides Lie Action News and other anti-choice sites perhaps you would actually have accurate information instead of half-baked conspiracy theories.

          • Phil Baker

            yes they will

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actual proof needed. And you can’t use a ‘pro-life’ site, either.

          • Phil Baker

            According to you we all lie then I must assume that any discussion with you is a waste of time . I remember you saying I couldn’t tell you what to say, you want all the control you can have it bye.

          • Jennifer Starr

            So, what you’re saying is that you don’t have any actual unbiased proof and rather than having the nerve to admit it, you’re running away with your tail between your legs. Nice

          • Valde

            Phil, did you know, that in order to pay for abortions, Obama is going to send stormtroopers to your house who will then steal your TV and appliances in order to PAY FOR THE SENSELESS BABY KILLING OMFG

          • fiona64

            The information has already been provided that proves you incorrect.

          • fiona64

            Nope. You are full of shit … again. You can read the full text of the Hyde Amendment here (I even picked an anti-choice site, just for you): http://www dot nrlc dot org/AHC/HydeAmendmentText.html

            Quote (emphasis added) : SEC. 507. (a) None of the funds appropriated in this Act, and none of the funds in any trust fund to which funds are appropriated in this Act, shall be expended for any abortion.

            (b) None of the funds appropriated in this Act, and none of the funds in any trust fund to which funds are appropriated in this Act, shall be expended for health benefits coverage that includes coverage of abortion.

            So, again you lie. I’m not even surprised at this point.

          • Arekushieru

            With over billions of dollars spent on military operations when money and the economy is low it makes no sense. But, no, Pro-’Life’ never makes that case. Hypocrites.

          • Phil Baker

            You couldn’t know that, have you talked to every single person about their opinion I doubt that if not start phoning them but first I think you need a long nap .

          • Arekushieru

            Um, seriously, please READ before responding, next time. Pro-Life. NOT pro-life. Therefore I am talking about the MOVEMENT. Which GENERALLY supports wars, even those that take ACTUALLY INNOCENT lives, but opposes abortion. H.Y.P.O.C.R.I.T.E.S. Look up NRA, if you don’t believe me. HERP DERP.

        • fiona64

          You’re right, there’s one other choice: gestation.

          Once again, it is ever so easy to be an anti-choice male. After all, you’ll never have to worry about gestational diabetes (that may become permanent), hyperemesis gravidarum, placenta previa, eclampsia, pre-eclampsia or any of a host of other common pregnancy complications that kill women every day *in the developed world.* You just wave your hand a tell the woman to assume risk of life and limb and call it good. Feh.

          • Phil Baker

            Talk about fear mongering you make it sound like being pregnant and having a child has a 100% death rate which is no were near the truth . I know many women over the last 45 years that have had no problem having children with no medical issues at all and the few who did have a problem came out alright and there problem was not caused by being pregnant and a few decided not to have children including my wife and myself. I know a couple that was told to abort their child because he will have down syndrome he is now married with a child and no problems. The doctor was wrong and according to my friends it happens a lot . I feel a lot of empathy for a women that has to decide between her life or the babies and I would never judge them . There have been a lot of women who have chosen to go ahead and it didn’t work out . There are also many times it turned out the doctor was wrong and both are very happy and healthy .All you talk about is the down side if I believed your
            rhetoric I would be warning women not to get pregnant but that would be wrong.

          • fiona64

            Sweetie, I talk about the *reality* of pregnancy and childbirth. Even uncomplicated pregnancies cause permanent changes to a woman’s body; the pubic symphysis never reconnects fully after the first birth, and remains wider after each subsequent one. My (very pro-choice) friend who has five kids can no longer ride her bike because of this, and her walking gait has been affected as well. Forensic anthropologists can tell how many times a woman has been pregnant by the striations on her pubic symphysis bones.

            You act as though the whole thing is sunshine and fairy farts — when nothing could be further from the truth.

            In order to satisfy your anti-choice position, you use fear-mongering *lies* to try to scare women into remaining pregnant against their will. One of us is not living in reality-land. Hint: it’s the guy you see in the mirror every day.

          • Phil Baker

            No lies and no fear mongering from me, aren’t women to smart to fall for that .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Says the man who spews forth BS like it’s going out of style.

          • Phil Baker

            I hope you don’t fall down from your ivory tower you got your self on.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Is that why you use bad grammar and spelling, because you don’t want to seem too intellectual? Don’t worry. No one who knows you will ever accuse you of having an intellect.

          • Valde

            haha

            your put-downs have been great lately, Jenn:P

          • fiona64

            So, you didn’t write bullcrap about how abortion causes breast cancer, and how abortion makes women sterile, and how abortion is more dangerous than gestation? Really? Dude, you are a liar. Every single one of those comments was refuted by *me,* personally.

            So, yes. You do and did post lies and fear-mongering. At least be intellectually honest enough to own the bullcrap you’re spreading around like it’s an organic garden in here.

          • Valde

            One has to have an intellect to be intellectually honest.

            :)

          • Phil Baker

            I did write it and because many countries in Europe and Asia support them statements, just because you have information from the never wrong United States that appears to contradict what i have heard doesn’t mean I have to believe it.

          • Jennifer Starr

            Yes, lets not confuse Phil with facts ‘n stuff. After all, he knows what he’s heard from faux news and pro-lie sites.

          • fiona64

            Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to post actual facts and scientific information that might just hurt your itty-bitty feewings.

            What a dimwit.

          • Valde

            Women have the right not to be permanently disabled for life in favour of a fetus just because you think they are filthy s1uts who should pay for consensual sex with a forced pregnancy.

            And the worst thing is, you don’t even think abortion is murder. You just want to punish and control women, and make them subservient to the ‘sacred sperm’.

            You are a misogynist creep Phil.

          • Phil Baker

            You don’t even know me and most women who have an abortion say they do it for financial reasons . Just because I would go after the abortion doctor and not the women dose not mean I don’t believe its murder. The taking of a life and keeping women out of the hands of an abortion doctor is my only concern at this time . .

          • Jennifer Starr

            Actually, it does mean that you don’t believe it’s murder. If a wife hires someone to murder her born child for insurance money–aka financial reasons–we put her in prison along with the hitman. And yet you don’t think that should happen to a woman who has an abortion.Why is that?

            And you still haven’t addressed what you think the penalty should be for a self-induced abortion, but I guess that’s because you don’t have the cop-out of ‘Oh, it’s always the doctor’s fault’ to use as an excuse.

          • Valde

            You don’t even know me and most women who have an abortion say they do it for financial reasons

            Women have the right to have an abortion for any reason they wish. And I know enough about you to know that you are a woman hating hypocrite who says he considers abortion to be murder, and women who get abortions for ‘financial’ reasons to be fitlhy s1uts, but won’t even say these women should be put in jail for MURDER.

          • Arekushieru

            So, just because a doctor was wrong about diagnosing someone with cancer, ONCE, we should never believe them? If not, hypocrite.

      • Phil Baker

        What about adoption

        • goatini

          Women with unwanted pregnancies are not public livestock to exploit and torture in indentured servitude, so that the greedy billion-dollar adoption syndicate can seize the fruit of her coerced, unpaid labor and sell it to the highest bidder.

          Thousands of actual living, breathing kids need loving homes and parents, adoptuskids dot org. Anyone who is too selfish to NOT adopt one or more of these poor kids in need, in favor of torturing a woman with an unwanted pregnancy into being their personal unpaid baby oven, shouldn’t be allowed to adopt a dog or a cat, much less a child.

        • fiona64

          What about it? There are more than 100K children currently available for adoption in this country, the majority of whom will “age out” of the system without ever having permanent homes. http://www dot acf dot hhs dot gov/sites/default/files/cb/afcarsreport20.pdf. There it is, right on the 4th line of the new report: Number waiting to be adopted: 101,719.

          How many of these kids are you planning to adopt, Phil?

          • Phil Baker

            I’m to old to adopt but I do what I can and I am always looking to help in a new way.How many are you planning to adopt, Fiona ?

          • fiona64

            I’m not the one demanding that women gestate unwanted pregnancies and then surrender infants for adoption, Phil. That would be *you.*

            I do a lot of work with disadvantaged youth, with people living with HIV/AIDS, with abused animals … I could keep going, but it really isn’t the subject of this discussion. Your tu quoque attempt is, however, duly noted.

        • Ella Warnock

          Ha, fiona asked it first, but yeah, what about it? No woman is obligated to provide infants to those who can’t make their own. As long as she’s not coerced or guilted into adoption, I’ve got no problem with it. Unfortunately, that’s not quite how it always goes down. Feelings of guilt or shame should never be exploited just so other people can get their hands on something you have that they want.

    • Valde

      if you want to force women to remain pregnant you are anti-choice by definition

    • Ella Warnock

      I think I can distill this argument:

      You people are evil and hateful, and I don’t like you!!

      ::stomp, stomp, stomp::

      Baybeez !!!!!eleventy!!!!

      ::waves fists furiously in the air::

      I don’t see anything of any value here, and you have nothing new or particularly articulate to offer. You’ve got to convince your audience that you have something they want, or need; so in that way you’ve failed, as have so many others before you, to sell your view to people who are not uncertain of their convictions.

      • fiona64

        You left out “because Jesus!”

        • Ella Warnock

          Oh, yeah! ::smacks forehead::

          • Phil Baker

            Okay ,because Jesus

      • Phil Baker

        You can’t change a mind that doesn’t want to change or unwilling to make sure that what they believe is correct ,that is why I enjoy doing this I may disagree with you but I learn . I try not to call you bunch liars because it doesn’t help .

        • fiona64

          Well, first of all you have to have a mind in order for us to change it …

          • Phil Baker

            That’s very good .

      • Phil Baker

        I don’t care if you like me or not its not important at this point and besides since you all have wrongly concluded that those who fight for the life of the unborn child all lie and you want us to believe you don’t then we will stay at a impasse.

        • Jennifer Starr

          Run-on sentences make baby Jesus cry, you know.

          • Phil Baker

            Yes mother .

        • Valde

          If you actually cared about the lives of unborn children you would support the imprisonment of women who WILLFULLY AND maliciously MURDER THEIR DEFENSELESS UNBORN BABIES

          • Phil Baker

            Good thing for them its not up to you.

          • Arekushieru

            No, that is what YOU are saying. DERP. Learn to read. And, yes, all we hear are lies from you people so what else would you like us to call you?

    • fiona64

      You are full of more shit than a Christmas goose.

      There are no options to abortion other than gestation … which is significantly more dangerous than early abortion by a factor of 14. But hey, don’t let actual facts get in the way of your absurdity. Source: http://health dot usnews dot com/health-news/family-health/womens-health/articles/2012/01/23/abortion-safer-for-women-than-childbirth-study-claims

      • Phil Baker

        According to the CDC out of 3,953,590.00- 650 women die while giving birth each year. There is poor collecting of abortion mortality rates because it is voluntary ,so time will tell if its true or not . This rate according to the CDC is partly because of problems having more time to happen and are sometimes caused by pre-existing problems . No deaths are good but as you bunch have said all surgeries come with a possibility of danger even abortion if it is not properly controlled.

        • fiona64

          Sweetie, we’re #50 in maternal mortality in the developed world. Greece is #1. http://www dot huffingtonpost dot com/2012/08/24/maternal-mortality-rate-infographic_n_1827427.html. In fact, our maternal mortality rate is rising. For every 100,000 births, 24 pregnant women die here — which is more than double the rate it was 25 years ago. But hey, who cares if women die from pregnancy complications, right? It’s all about the widdle baaaayyyybbbbeeeeesssss.

  • Ella Warnock

    Yes, it’s interesting that they always say no child is unwanted. I think our foster care system puts the lie to that notion.

  • Valde

    Disqus is hiccuping today…won’t even take me to new posts, or notify me even

  • Phil Baker

    Their have been a lot of adoptions in my family and my sister is a foster parent and has adopted two so far I am very proud of my them . Many foster children come with a lot of problems but they did it any ways and they continue to help them very unselfishly. We know a lot of people who have adopted as much as six children . So you can keep those comments to your self. You don’t know most of the people your attacking . Your just blowing air.

    • Arekushieru

      Whoohoo, one family out of how many MILLIONS of anti-choice families have adopted children. Now, tell me why there are still so many children left in the system, if that one family is all that it took to reduce the numbers of children waiting?

      • Phil Baker

        That’s a dumb response I mentioned more than one family and you and I know there are a lot more, besides abortion will not change this problem. Your still blowing air and that’s about it.

        • fiona64

          You’re right; forced-birthing will *totally* solve the problem of hundreds of thousands of kids being available for adoption already. /sarcasm

          • Phil Baker

            I don’t know the answer ,it would probably involve more support for dealing with addictions, mental health support, parental teaching help and cheaper adoptions I am sure there are many more ideas . One thing I know is true is abortion is not the answer.

          • fiona64

            Except that you don’t even know what the *question* was, Phil. FWIW, the state pays a stipend to people who adopt from the foster care system … you can’t make it much “cheaper” than paying people to do it.

            You don’t know any woman’s situation, Phil, which is why you are in no position whatsoever to decide what is, or is not, the “answer.”

          • Valde

            You don’t know that abortion is not the answer because you are not a pregnant woman.

          • goatini

            Of COURSE abortion is the answer to an unwanted pregnancy. Women with unwanted pregnancy are not public baby ovens for selfish barren vultures to exploit in gestational slavery.

        • Arekushieru

          Use a strawman to argue my first point, then completely ignore the second. Typical of illogical antis. Sad. My point was that YOUR family who knows all these families is just ONE family. Tons of OTHER families know many more families that WEREN’T fine. DERP.

          • Phil Baker

            I shared with you my experience and it is that many people I know have taken in children that are in the system and they have told me of many who have done their best to adopt or foster then adopt . Every one in this country must do their best to solve this problem including the Government . One thing I know abortion and children in the system they are two different problems.Are you imply that that pro-choice people are doing their part or you are saying its just the responsibility of the pro-choice side ? If your desire is to judge us without really knowing us ,then that’s sad.