• Charles

    I tend to agree with much that you say in this article. The “boys will be boys” attitude is pretty disgusting. As a man in the tech community, I have worked since college with little to no women in my office. I have heard all the jokes, admittedly, I have joined in on some. I believe that those two men should have been ashamed for what they were saying out loud during a public address.

    Where I disagree with you is how Adria Richards handled the situation. Let’s imagine that I’m out in public speaking with a guy friend. I’m retelling a joke, or talking about something that is a private discussion with myself and my friend. Should I be worried that someone will take a picture of me and shame me online because they don’t agree with what I’m saying? Should I then be worried that if it goes viral, I could be possibly hurt financially, professionally, etc.? I know this is an obviously extreme example, but this is what happened. These guys, stupid as they are, were talking about something and not directly to Adria. Instead of turning around and telling them to be quiet, or to talk to them after about how unprofessional it was, she chose to take a picture of them and publicly “discipline” them for their actions, unbeknownst to the guys involved.

    This led to where we are today. Two people lost their jobs, companies were affected, and probably a lot more people will be affected in the long run.

    Again, I’m not saying the guys are without fault. They obviously said something publicly and will have to live with that, I just think that next time Adria Richards or anyone (man or woman) is unhappy with their environment, they need to step up and correct it. Not sit back and decide that public shame is the best option.

    • Natasha Chart

      I appreciate your thoughtful reply, but I tend to agree with Deanna Zandt that speaking up in person like that isn’t always effective, and can be incredibly intimidating when you’re a woman, let alone a person of color, in a very large group of white men. You never know if the response is going to be the brush off, getting fired (if in your workplace), getting harangued or harassed, getting mocked, or perhaps getting a reasonable and humane response. You never know. And it’s not unreasonable to fear in a situation like that, that a possible result is a behind the scenes harassment campaign should you happen to be dealing with a particularly vindictive person. If you’ve been in tech a while, you probably know that can happen, just as it did to Kathy Sierra.

      And all of us do these days run the risk that pictures or video will be taken of us in public at any time. It’s a product of the culture the tech industry created. Yes, we should try to be polite in using that technology, but it’s also not unreasonable to consider that we should just also be generally polite.

      We live in a country where, within our lifetimes, people of color who weren’t polite in public could get lynched, and where the specter of being dismissed as an ‘angry black’ hangs over every interaction with white people many African Americans have. We live in a country where, today, women who act in ways that are considered unladylike can be accused by police or by attorneys in a court of law of having asked to be sexually assaulted, and have to deal with the consequences of being treated as responsible for their own victimization.

      It is really not too much to ask of economically privileged men that they be civil to others and act with some care towards the feelings and sensibilities of the people around them. Everyone else has been having to do that for basically ever.

    • nettwench14

      Your approach just does not work. That’s the problem with it. There are already laws against sexual harassment in the workplace. Some people need to be either pounded in the head or forcibly re-educated in order to get the message. Women in these situations are NEVER supported, They are always shamed by co-workers, male and female alike. This is just the tip of the iceberg, and it’s a very slippery slope.

    • maiathebeegrrl

      Hey Charles,

      I appreciate that your reply is well-intentioned, but both the author of this column & Adria (in her linked column) explain VERY clearly why that response wasn’t something they see as a reasonable option. My concern is that, given this, your comments about how she “should have” responded is pretty much just nicely-worded victim-blaming. Choosing to confront your harasser(s) in an indirect way (by reporting them to the people organizing an event) is not failing to step up, it IS stepping up. And conversations at a working conference (with a clear code of conduct) in a large public space can hardly be described as “private”.

  • Julian Morrison

    How is she doing, do you know? Is she ok? This worries me.

    Also, SendGrid can go straight to hell. When the mob was clamouring outside their place of business, did they defy them in the name of loyalty, if justice wasn’t reason enough? Or did they turn on one of their own, who had done no wrong, to appease the bullies and scum? The latter.

    • catladyjunior

      If anyone is a fan of The Waling Dead this comment made me think of the most recent episode. The moral segment of the audience was left hoping like hell that Rick would make the right choice. It is pretty obvious that SendGrid does not have anywhere near the moral standards of Sheriff Rick, eh?

  • http://www.facebook.com/ali.akverdi Ali Akverdi

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  • http://www.facebook.com/BDL911 Brad Donald Lannon

    Defending Adria Richards and all the Mental back flips you must do to do so is amazing. The lengths you must go to to make something look how it is not is impressive. She was the bad guy here. Defending her is as bad as how CNN tried to make the Steubenville rapists seem sympathetic. She was the aggressor in this case over some misunderstood tech lingo for at least half the conversation she was eavesdropping in on. She ruined a mans life over a PG13 joke cause she was trying to play the crusading hero. And karma caught up to her when everyone realized what a charlatan she actually is.

    • http://www.facebook.com/BDL911 Brad Donald Lannon

      Are men not allowed to make a innuendo joke about their own body parts now? We as men no longer have a right to even talk about our own Maleness in the public place. But if it was about a women demanding her right to talk about her body parts we would have no recourse. This is as far as PC baloney will go IMO. It went too far.

      • http://twitter.com/#!/dameocrat Dameocrat

        Not if you are attending a conference where it says you can’t and not being able to is a condition of attendance.

      • nettwench14

        Oh, so men are stupid. i get it. Too stupid to follow directions, and act in a civilized manner. UNPROFESSIONAL.

      • Arekushieru

        Um, do you have a problem with reading comprehension? The problem was NOT that they were making jokes about their body parts, they were making jokes about their body parts in a way that they could so without impunity, whereas women COULD NOT. Derp,. Completely blows away your own misogynistic theory at the end, there, doesn’t it?

      • jovan1984

        Certainly not. No one was allowed to make sexual jokes of any kind at any time on any medium while the conference was going on – which was for about one month. Read the rules again, buddy.

        Also: I’m surprised that no one reported Ms. Richards for the joke she made about the TSA agent three days before this brouhaha – she could have been fired right there and then.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/dameocrat Dameocrat

      Reporting a conversation overheard at a PUBLIC conference is in no way equivalent to raping anyone. You are really worked up over a stupid twitter comment. You, and your fellow manosphere drama kings, have shown up, and freeped every site I have seen on this matter. I swear you post on this twitter comment 24 hours a day, it is so damned important to you. You act like it is the holocaust. You ought to get an entry on encyclopedia dramatica. Threatening to behead and rape someone over this minor incident is in the category of the Steubenville incident.

      She didn’t ruin his life either. He was fired. He was fired by his employer, not her. You also exaggerate how powerful she is, you dorks!

    • nettwench14

      Oh, yeah, you guys can’t handle a woman actually standing up for herself. We got the message loud and clear. This is BULLYING behavior, as well as sexist. She was fired from her job, speaking of lives being ruined.

      • jovan1984

        The rape and death threats hurled at her by the thousands by these sexist pigs were the main source of the BULLYING towards her. I hope that Ms. Richards sent every last one of the threats these e-thugs made towards her to the Santa Clara PD and to the CBI in Sacramento.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

      Actually, making the Steubenville rapists appear sympathetic, would be similar to the bullying Adria Richards received from your cohort. SFS.

      • http://www.facebook.com/BDL911 Brad Donald Lannon

        My cohort? And your trying to link me to Stubenville. How vile and low of you considering I was one of the ones that bashed the MSM and organized my friends to write to many editors and writers for trying to make rapists like them them sympathetic stories. You are a sick person carla.

  • Adult_Content

    The last sexual harassment class I attended closed with, “Know your audience.”

    An unintentional lesson during the class was one woman said something was offensive. Body language of everyone else in the class was like, “Whoa. Is she ever uptight.” Even the instructors were amazed.

    Is this saying humor should be banned in the workplace? How about any non-workplace conversation? Most departments I’ve seen with a “sensitive” employee, that employee is put in a corner and the other workers keep visitors well away.

    • Arekushieru

      And I have no idea what YOU’RE saying. Are you saying that ‘sensitive employees SHOULD be put in a corner? You can be humourous without being offensive. Kthx.

      • Adult_Content

        A manager is responsible for the team getting its job done on time and on budget. A good manager will resolve the odd disruption such as a joke someone else didn’t appreciate, without any staffing changes. Both transfers and terminations require a new body be brought in and that means paperwork and training, both expensive.

        Often the staff itself will recognize the need to shift desks around, they know as a team they get the job done and they like working with each other. Such staff will go to the boss, ask to rearrange, six words explanation why, and the boss says fine.

        As for being humorous without being offensive, by your scale that is true. By the person on the other side of the cubical wall forced to listen, perhaps not.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

          Sorry, but you completely missed my point. When I say humourous without being offensive, I am referring to the article itself. Specifically: But to add historical and social context, which so many discussions in
          post-modern technical environments lack, when women make similar
          comments in public in a professional environment, we lose status. It
          demeans us or makes us be seen as trashy in ways that never apply to
          men. Women can’t generally talk, in person and among professional
          colleagues, like little kids looking at their first naughty pictures. We
          have to be more adult than that, more respectable.” Meaning that women, unlike what Edtastic, the moron, believes, actually are MORE stigmatized than men when sharing such jokes. Meaning that that type of joke is offensive simply because of that inherent inequality. Meaning that THAT level of offensiveness is NOT required when being humourous.

          Merely shifting desks does not make for equality nor a safe workplace for minorities or women.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

          Yes, btw, I am Arekushieru.

    • jovan1984

      To be honest with ya: I’d totally ban crude humor of any kind in my workplace. Call me a sensitive employer all you like, I don’t care. Abide by my rules or I’ll show you the door.

      • Adult_Content

        By standards of our society, some things all consider crude. But there’s a gray area. Either the listener or speaker may be your star performer. Do you want to fire the speaker? Or listener to quit? Either action and you have to find a replacement. Will YOUR boss appreciate that expense on the department budget?

        • catladyjunior

          If it saves them from having a lawsuit thrown their way, I’m not sure why they wouldn’t appreciate it.

          • Adult_Content

            Bosses don’t make a big presentations to the workers explaining what effective management involves.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

          The speaker. It is obvious is it not? After all, why are only the listeners required to act responsibly. And anything that promotes inequality in the workplace should be banned. Otherwise crude humour is acceptable. That should have been obvious, as well.

    • catladyjunior

      Why don’t we just put anyone with minority opinions in the corner?! Can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen!

      Oh wait…if you think about the implications of that for more than 10 seconds it is immediately obvious why that is a problem.

      • edtastic

        If you have a minority opinion it does not make your opinion worth more than everyone else’s.

        • catladyjunior

          Right, because not putting people in corners is exactly like treating them better than everyone else.
          Do you read for comprehension? Just curious, because I’m not sure how you got that ^ out of what I wrote.

          • edtastic

            I was adding the counter point to your point. Our democracy was designed with the goal of finding the balance between majority rights and minority rights. Being in the minority does not make you more right than the majority but you do have the freedom to speak against it. You are not sent to the corner but you don’t get to run the show either. There is a balance. If women want to lead the majority they should do so with compelling positions and not by demanding pity from men. This is going back to the patriarchal paternalism and far from expecting to be treated as a equal. Making women happy is not men’s job at work, the job is the work.

            I think in male dominated spaces, males should able to dominate their spaces. There should be respect for minorities in those spaces(women’s equality) but that respect does amount to silencing anyone who annoys a women in that space or having women dictate speech and behavior codes for everyone else. They are minorities and if they want to dominate the space they can make their own.

            The behavior code if any should be equal for all and based on men’s standards of what they tolerate in their space and so long as it’s equal then minorities have been sufficiently accommodated.

            Women’s satisfaction needs to stop being the primary objective in gender equality such a goals don’t lead to equality.

          • Amelia67

            “In male dominated spaces, males should (be) able to dominate their spaces.”

            Yeah, man! Right on! And in white male dominated spaces, white men should be able to dominate their spaces. No one ain’t got the right to tell us dominant white guys we can’t make racist jokes.

            And hey, in those white male able-bodied dominated spaces, we non-disabled white guys should be able to dominate our spaces. We white, male, non-disabled jerks can make all the jokes and nasty comments we want to about those lesser folks who are crippled or can’t see right or whatever cause we get to dominate our spaces. Yeah!!!

          • edtastic

            I said:

            “The behavior code if any should be equal for all and based on men’s standards of what they tolerate in their space and so long as it’s equal then minorities have been sufficiently accommodated.”

            In order for the code to be equal you could not declare the others in it to be less than equal. That would disqualify actively being racist or sexist.

            I also said:

            “Our democracy was designed with the goal of finding the balance between majority rights and minority rights.”

            One of the compromises we made was being against racism, sexism, ageism, etc…

            You can’t make jokes or nasty comments towards a specific group or that group would no longer be equal would they? They would be persecuted. A sex joke does not persecute either sex since is a pleasant activity shared by both. Joking about sex is on par with humor about food, drink, or using the toilet since all are natural activities we all engage in.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            “But to add historical and social context, which so many discussions in
            post-modern technical environments lack, when women make similar
            comments in public in a professional environment, we lose status. It
            demeans us or makes us be seen as trashy in ways that never apply to
            men. Women can’t generally talk, in person and among professional
            colleagues, like little kids looking at their first naughty pictures. We
            have to be more adult than that, more respectable.”

            Did you seriously comment on a post that you CLEARLY have not read? This is what she meant by the sexism displayed by men making such a nasty sex joke. Seriously.

            “Based on men’s standards”, and you say feminists want to control MEN? Are you seriously this stupid?

          • edtastic

            Talking about a Dongle is a Nasty Sex joke? Don’t feed me this feminist bull crap which is nothing but bunch of archetypes to validate a outdated victim narrative. Men and women are individuals who generally do everything the other does. Women make dirty jokes today along side men. Time for you to get with the times.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            Okay, let’s explain to the poor deluded male. If someone gets less pay for equal work, then demands that they be given equal pay for equal work, fulfilling that would be satisfactory and lead to equality. So, NOT getting satisfaction, would be UNEQUAL. Oi.

            “I think in male dominated spaces, males should able to dominate their
            spaces. There should be respect for minorities in those spaces(women’s
            equality) but that respect does amount to silencing anyone who annoys a
            women in that space or having women dictate speech and behavior codes
            for everyone else. They are minorities and if they want to dominate the
            space they can make their own.”

            Um, again, how can someone be this stupid? The fact that there are SO MANY FUCKING DOMINATED MALE SPACES, is the reason that certain groups of humans ARE minorities. Also, f women have female dominated spaces and men have male dominated spaces, that is NOT equality.

            Patriarchal paternalism isn’t something that is completely separate from the workplace. In fact, that is one of the major reasons WHY patriarchal paternalism EXISTS.

          • edtastic

            “Okay, let’s explain to the poor deluded male.”

            Notice the attack on my gender. Your issue is with men in general and you see shaming them as a means of control which you’d rather not give up. I’m sorry but we don’t want to be dominated and bullied by women who hate us.

            “If someone gets less pay for equal work, then demands that they be given equal pay for equal work, fulfilling that would be satisfactory and lead to equality.”

            The point of bringing this over hyped invented issue up is what? She wasn’t talking about equal pay, it was about a stupid joke regarding a piece of computer hardware. Overrating the importance of her satisfaction is what created all these problems. People are sick of these self absorbed narcissist trying to dominate everyone else with their sensitivities.

            “The fact that there are SO MANY FUCKING DOMINATED MALE SPACES, is the reason that certain groups of humans ARE minorities.”

            Women are more than half the population and they ARE NOT MINORITIES! If all these spaces are male dominated then where the hell are the women? They are dominating some spaces but it’s not the ones your ego wants. You are hostile to the very idea of men being free to be themselves because you’re obsessed with molding men to your ideals. The idea of male liberation is a threat to you because these males won’t feel obligated to tow the feminist line.

            Your issue is male resentment. It’s written right into your comments. You need to deal with your gender issues and I think most people especially the young ones are far ahead of you when it comes to that.

            If you enter a company you adapt to the company culture regardless of your gender.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

          No, it does not. But being a minority DOES mean that your opinion should be given more WEIGHT than the majority opinion, for everything to BE equal. Read my explanation about equal pay for equal work, then come back here. What YOU are arguing for, however, is for majorities to be raised up by the same measurement that are minorities are raised up. But, if the disparity still exists, how can minorities be considered EQUAL? Whoops?

          • edtastic

            One person One Vote. That’s equality. The fact more people vote the other way doesn’t make the minority unequal.

    • edtastic

      I think it’s best that companies simply fire overly sensitive people to avoid a hostile work environment for the others along with the legal risk. We need people who know how to get along instead of looking to pick fights over petty nonsense.

      • Adult_Content

        Which is why you have a desk off in the corner.

        • edtastic

          Isolate and eliminate. May the strong men and women be free of all the adult sized children forcing them to behave as they were in the company of children.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            May all of us be free of all the adult sized children willingly acting as if responsibility only applies to the listener, not the speaker. May all of us listeners be free from restrictions on OUR freedom of speech, while those who speak are given unlimited access to forums in which they can parade their views. (How STRONG they must be in order to espouse views that have the support of the mainstream culture, and, yes, how WEAK and childlike those with dissenting views, in OPPOSITION to the mainstream reality, must be. Seriously? You’ve just seen evidence that clearly BLOWS that theory apart. Dumbass.) May all of us listeners be accorded equality and the same respect that is given to our peers. Finally, the only ones acting like adult children were the speakers. And to qualify them as strong, flies in the face of every DEFINITION of strength.

          • edtastic

            Views that are supportive of men don’t have much mainstream support because there’s plenty of angry women quick to pounce on that man and seek to ostracize them. That’s pretty much what you are doing. Men do need defending from vicious women with their man hating agendas. That does take a degree of courage because the mainstream has long ago accepted the women as perpetual victim of men narrative and challenging that narrative is risky.

            Here we see a women whose behavior was obviously appalling but she got feminists swarm to defend her anyway because people had the nerve to send her hate mail. I don’t recall people getting upset over men receiving hate mail. This double standard is about sustain a victim narrative of ‘internet harassment’ and feminists other jargon loaded memes.

            If you are going to bully people don’t crawl in the corner and play victim afterwards. It’s not a good look.

  • nettwench14

    Out the b*stards! That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. It is SHOCKING to me that the same outfit that protested Steubenville wanted this woman fired. I think Adria has a lawsuit on her hands. This article details what is wrong around every sexist water cooler in our society. Unprofessionalism should not be tolerated in any context – it’s for a reason. “Boys will be boys” is always the excuse. And if it’s not made public it will be shoved under the rug. We know that much. “You’re only allowed to be a humorless prude or a woman who’s asking for it, and very little in between.” Madonna-whore complex. Boys will be boys, but damn you if you try to be one of the boys. It is done to exclude and intimidate women. You are absolutely correct about that. What an excellent article, one of the best I have ever read on the subtleties of sexism in the workplace. Public shaming is what they deserve and it’s apparently the only thing that will work. The victims are always blamed.

    • edtastic

      ” Boys will be boys, but damn you if you try to be one of the boys. It is done to exclude and intimidate women.”

      The real problem is feminist feeling threatened by men who are not under their direct control. This bullying is what feminist do to punish men who dare to remain true to themselves. Sex jokes are not sexism. Sexism is deciding that men can’t make sex jokes because it scares women. It’s sexist to assume women are easily frightened and sexist to presume only men should be constrained to make women happy.

      “I think Adria has a lawsuit on her hands.”

      No she doesn’t and the more women abuse men like this the more men you will find joining the backlash against feminist and feminism. Men aren’t weak and what has happened was men were trying to be nice to women. They don’t have to be that nice, they don’t have to put up with these constant attacks from people like you, the shaming or the abuse. Men want equality, and it’s not this oppressive regimen created by feminist.

      • Amelia67

        Oh, pity edtastic, the poor subjugated little, uh, man.

        • edtastic

          You really think men are looking for your approval or will be threatened by this pathetic attempt at emasculation. They are looking out for their own welfare just like I expect women to do. Welcome to the new world of equality where it is possible for a male to be subjugated by the expectation that they must please women all the time.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            No, we don’t. We don’t want men to seek ‘approval’ from us. That you would even suggest we do demonstrates, yet again, how sexist YOU are. After all, no discussion of how women are CONSTANTLY expected to seek approval from men. Emasculated by losing their privileges? Seriously, if they had to constantly battle for social approval all the time like women do, I would think that they are MORE manly, not less.

            “Welcome to the new world of equality where it is possible for a male to
            be subjugated by the expectation that they must please women all the
            time.”

            And that is YOUR sexist opinion based on what YOU think women should be expected to do.

            NOT reality. NOT equality.

          • edtastic

            You are the ones with sexist opinions for example:

            ” Emasculated by losing their privileges?”

            Here you assume I have some macho ego that needs protecting. If anything I’m arguing that men are vulnerable to women who abuse the system meant to protect them by inventing sources of offense. There is power to be had in playing victim when harm to others is defined too broadly.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

        Um, it’s CLEAR you don’t have the SLIGHTEST clue what sexism is. You, yourself, are ENGAGING in it, by complaining about your loss of PRIVILEGES. Sexism is a construct whereby there is a quantifiable and qualifiable disparity between two sexes. If you had read the article, PROPERLY, you would see that men experience LESS backlash from making a sex/dirty/bawdy joke than women do, LET ALONE the backlash that women experience from going public with their frustrations. That IS sexism. That IS men being privileged over women. And THAT is what you’re complaining about the loss of. And the FACT that you want to keep it that way, is evidence of YOUR sexism. It’s sexist to assume that this is merely about women being ‘frightened’. After all, would you classify it the same if the disparity was reversed? Somehow I think not. The MEN are using bullying behaviours, not women. Sad that you can’t see that.

        “and what has happened was men were trying to be nice to women.”

        Would they like a cookie? Having to put up with sexist behaviours from men for a long time, then being nice to them, would qualify for a cookie, though.

        Women aren’t abusing men. Men are abusing women. The men were NOT trying to be nice to women. If they WERE trying to be nice to women, they wouldn’t emphasize the power differences between men and women. Whoops. Men AREN’T weak, but that you would equate being weak with the loss of your privileges, shows just how LITTLE you think of women. Neither do women have to be that nice. But so nice to see you upholding a double standard, YET AGAIN. That you think the loss of your privileges is oppression, means you have NO idea what oppression TRULY is. Feminism is about equality. YOU are not.

        • edtastic

          “Sexism is a construct whereby there is a quantifiable and qualifiable disparity between two sexes”

          You mean like men being 90% of our prison population? There is sexism and then there is personal choice. The problem is you don’t respect that people make different choices and will consider things unequal until you get the outcomes YOU want.

          “If you had read the article, PROPERLY, you would see that men experience LESS backlash from making a sex/dirty/bawdy joke than women do, LET ALONE the backlash that women experience from going public with their frustrations.”

          How many women do you know who have been fired for dirty jokes? Just declaring something true is a classic feminist tactic. You make up theories and declarations without any evidence other than you said so. When challenged by men you declare men don’t know women’s experiences when challenged by women you tell the women she’s blind to her own oppression. Enough with the silly games.

          “That IS men being privileged over women. And THAT is what you’re complaining about the loss of.”

          The privilege of not getting fired from your job for making a benign comment isn’t the same as wanting to get people fired over making benign comments. You don’t speak for women, you speak for women like you. I’d rather women like you didn’t work along side others of either gender because your tendency to invent offense where non need be found isn’t constructive.

          “Women aren’t abusing men. Men are abusing women.”

          No men were supporting women. Feminism started with bored housewives not poor working women. When women moved into the male part of the workforce there was resistance because men’s role was threatened. That role was supporting women.

          “If they WERE trying to be nice to women, they wouldn’t emphasize the power differences between men and women.”

          So women aren’t nice by showing how their sex appeal is more powerful than that of men? So when a man where’s jeans and a T-shirt and she puts on hot pants and a tang top men should be offended by her demonstration of sexual power? How about when women talk about the power to bring life into the world or preference children have for their mothers?

          Both sexes do the same things and most of the variation is due to their being in a different context. People are people and these are things people do. They aren’t a justification for declaring one gender better or worse than the other. The sexes like each other and your framing of the gender issue completely ignores that.

          “Men AREN’T weak, but that you would equate being weak with the loss of your privileges, shows just how LITTLE you think of women.”

          People don’t want to help weak men in the way they would a weak women. Again, the male role was supporting women which required he be strong. A weak man was worthless, a weak women was actually attractive.This is why women like you get over by playing VICTIM! You are exploiting the very patriarchy you claim to be fighting.

          “That you think the loss of your privileges is oppression, means you have NO idea what oppression TRULY is.”

          Who are you lecturing on oppression? I think we’ve had enough of privileged women speaking as if they were the most disadvantaged people in America. Women and men grow up in the same homes so you can’t claim a privilege gap there and it’s also why women came up so quickly. All we had to do was shift gender expectations slightly and women reached parity with men in all but the most demanding roles.

          The actual oppression comes from poor people trapped in a cycle of poverty they don’t know how to escape. You don’t know what oppression is and that’s why you equate it with petty nonsense like dongle jokes.

          Your kind of feminism is about playing victim to control men. In that case men can just redirect their energies to abundance of male victims and leave you to it.

  • Kevin Daniel

    fuck you bitch. Shut your pie-hole and go make me a sammich.

    • Arekushieru

      Oo, the little man couldn’t WAIT to get out of his man-cave and say something stupid….

      • jovan1984

        That is how most of Ms. Richards’s detractors are. These men ever wonder why they are bitter and single.

  • jovan1984

    I support Ms. Richards reporting the behavior. What I do NOT (and never will) support is her making an unfunny joke about TSA herself THREE DAYS earlier.

    I can tell you now that off-color jokes of ANY kind by anyone should be grounds for immediate dismissal from ANY job in the tech industry – gender notwithstanding.

  • http://twitter.com/lifepostepic Cade DeBois

    This hit me hard:

    “Adria Richards didn’t know it that day, but she was only a guest in their culture, and not a community member like she probably thought she was. Too bad for her.”

    Oh, how I can relate to that, many times over. I wasn’t raised to be aware of how people treated me. I was told that if i worked hard and all that i could succeed, adn that yeah, it would be harder for me as a woman but no one told me how vicious, ugly and hurtful the boys’ clubs get when they feel you’ve invaded their space, their “culture.”

    I was reading Alexis Ohanian’s terribly hypocritical and self-righteous “Dudes, don’t be so sexist” thing the other day–he seems to think that only now non-white, non-male people are getting clued in about how awesome tech is. No, Alexis, white males got first access to tech and got to define tech culture because of the privileges that lets white males sideline and alienate everyone else, like going around saying boys’ club kind of jokes in a professional setting. They might as well go around and uriante on all the chairs in the auditorum, as it’s all behavior that says “This is our territory and you’re not welcomed”. I was building my own PCs before Alexis even started school but I left my interst and talent for tech for music because the boys made me always feel like I was encroaching on THEIR territory (not that I didn’t contend with the exact same shit with music, as I would soon learn all too well). PCs, programming, gaming, music, grad school–all painful lessons in how because I have uterus I can’t be part of those clubs, I’m at best a guest there at the boys’ pleasure and if I make them displeased with me (like objecting to their humor), I apparently deserve the abuse I get.

    Anyhow, I’m disabled as well as a woman, so I have a multilayered experience of how others will you feel uncomforable when they don’t want to share a space with you. I get what is wrong here: in a diverse environment, you have been mindful of the comfort of others. It’s basic etiquette really. When you start saying other people shouldn’t be so sensitive or “OMG those this mean we can’t make jokes??”, you’re already in a bad spot, as you’re missing the point, which is you need to own your own behavior and you are responsible for how it effects others. If someone tells you your behavior effects them badly you need to reflect on that, not get defensive by being dismissive or changing the argument to something you think you can win. In professional settings, other people are entitled to SHARE the same space with you without you making them uncomfortable, unwelcomed, marginalized or threatened by your words or behavior. You have an social obligation to respect that. You have a social obligation to politely and respecfully share spaces like the workplace and professional conferences with others and not act like these are spaces that you own and you get to make the rules like it’s some treehouse you built in your backyard.

    Go buy one of Emily Post’s books, read it and grow up, everyone who’s not getting this..

    • edtastic

      “In professional settings, other people are entitled to SHARE the same space with you without you making them uncomfortable, unwelcomed, marginalized or threatened by your words or behavior”

      That’s not a reasonable standard when dealing with people who aren’t mentally balanced to begin with. If you spend a inordinate amount of time inflating your sense of victim hood what offends you will be overly broad, and forcing everyone to dance around your personal peeves is asking way too much. Boys should be able to be boys, and girls should be able to be girls. Stop trying to force everyone to be the kind of people you like. Sensitivity is not a whip that you use to control or manipulate others. I am more concerned with people being free to be who they are than oppressed in a prison created by hypersensitive people who don’t feel the need to adjust themselves to new social settings instead of demanding social settings adapt to them.

      • Adult_Content

        The company owns the workplace, not the employees. Companies want the best effort for the money and they have every right to expect employees will share the workplace with others with professionalism. The attitude “boys should be able to be boys” does not cut it.

        • edtastic

          Professionalism does not require you fire anyone who makes the occasional sex joke especially if the only ones hearing the joke are fellow employees who would rather a relaxed environment over a oppressive and constrictive one while they pursue their creative endeavours. Appealing to the interest of a tiny number of hyper sensitive people is actually counter productive. The happiness of the majority is much more important to employee moral.

          • Adult_Content

            In this case, professionalism means the men don’t get to tell the women they must endure stupid sex jokes simply because the men are clueless about their surroundings. Sorry that you don’t “get” it.

          • edtastic

            Oh I get it but I don’t agree with it. Professionalism does not amount to kissing women’s asses because women feel entitled to it. Using “professional” expectations to force men to play to women’s sensitivities at every turn is manipulative B.S. If the men around you make the occasional non bigoted joke then there should be nothing to complain about. Tons of women make the same kinds of jokes and men are not shouting from the rafters in protest. The double standards are in full effect here and I “get it”. You want to control men while men are not trying to control you, aside from protecting their freedom to do what women are free to do. That’s what equality suppose to look like, rather than a easy means of women demand a end to any behavior that annoys them no matter how slight.

          • Adult_Content

            You’re trying to tap dance around that you’re a misogynist and have no manners. That you think I’m a woman helps prove it. It’s obvious. Do you “get” that?

          • edtastic

            I don’t tap dance around anything, I reject your perspective because it’s oppressive B.S that has nothing to do with gender equality or hating women.

            Men don’t have to prove they don’t hate women by doing whatever you want and they should not submit to these ridiculous games. They don’t have to care if you think they hate women, the truth is a lot more important and it’s not the crap you invent in your head.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            So, by losing privileges, meaning, gaining EQUALITY with men, men must do whatever women want? Or, maybe, it’s just that you want to keep the status quo of having women do whatever men want. Misogynist.

          • edtastic

            Women currently do whatever men want? That will be the day…

            Enjoy your fantasy world.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            Women do not feel entitled to having men kiss their asses. Men have entitlement towards women kissing their asses.

            “Using “professional” expectations to force men to play to women’s sensitivities at every turn is manipulative B.S.”

            More sexist B.S from you. Also, note how you are expecting women to play to men’s sensitivities while men should not. Double standards, again, and yet you STILL claim this is not sexism? Yeah, idiot.

            Actually, men don’t need to shout from the rafters in protest to prove that something is sexist against women. All they have to do is let the patriarchy do it for them. Specifically, by letting it penalize women for making similar jokes, all the while letting them get off scot-free. Sexist behaviour isn’t simply an ANNOYANCE. Ah, you’re calling women control freaks because they’re trying to wrest power back from the actual ‘control freaks’? Smdh.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

            That you can say that women are being hyper-sensitive means you haven’t got a CLUE what oppression is either. Telling men to stop emphasizing the power differentials between them is OPPOSING oppression. YOU are supporting an oppressive, constrictive environment. So sad.

          • colleen2

            ed…you do not seem like the sort of person whose opinion on ‘professionalism’ is of much worth.

          • edtastic

            I’d say you might have a point. I’m pretty laid back and am willing to tolerate a great deal. I highly value freedom and in this PC era of professionalism there is a direct conflict with my principals.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

        Inflating your sense of victimhood? So says the man who will never really understand what being a victim IS. Sorry but saying you can’t make an offensive joke is nowhere near being a victim, definitely not when women being raped by men still make up the majority of REPORTED rapes.

        “Boys should be able to be boys, and girls should be able to be girls.”

        Do you know how insulting that is to BOTH men and women? There is no such thing as boys being boys or girls being girls, as it has all been a cultural evolution. So, psychological not physical. SFS.

        The fact that some people ARE sensitive to certain non-disseminating information, means THEY’RE the ones being manipulated and oppressed. OI. Ah, the poor people are oppressed because they can no longer oppress other people. All the responsibility is placed on the actual oppressed people to adjust? Wow, and you can’t see what a supporter of bigotry you are?

        Ah, the poor man came from his man-cave expecting women to respect him no matter what despicable behaviour he portrays. Now that he’s not getting it, he’s berating us for not being lady-like enough for him. Look at him, he’s SO oppressed. Sorry, but men are the ones controlling the social norms. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t DEMAND respect and lady-like behaviour from women, then complain about sexism when they don’t get it, all the while getting a FREE PASS for their own behaviour. Again, expectation that the one being oppressed should adapt not the other way around. More misogyny.

        “Pulling the girl card and demanding to be treated like a lady is the real sexism, and it’s coming from you.”

        No, as I told YOU, YOU’RE the ones demanding that. Again, it awes me that you are so opposed to women acting like ladies, yet when they step outside of that role, you’re wondering why they aren’t acting like ladies and declare that it’s women who are expecting to be treated like ladies (rather than being culturally brainwashed into ‘expecting it) then wonder why posts like this are considered sexist. Besides, wasn’t it YOU who declared that girls should be allowed to be girls. Contradictory and a misogynist. The stupid, it HURTS.

        • edtastic

          “Do you know how insulting that is to BOTH men and women? ”

          No I’m not. It means you can be who you want to be. Boys can be boys, and girls can be girls. Whatever that happens to be is ok.

          “There is no such thing as boys being boys or girls being girls, as it has all been a cultural evolution. So, psychological not physical. SFS.”

          That’s a stupid feminist theory. Sex is very real and natural. Then you have transgender people who challenge the notion of cultural gender. Maybe that’s why radical feminist hate them so much. Then you have homosexuality which implies even sexuality has natural roots in the brain. Your moncausal theory is flawed.

          The rest of you comment seems to be about getting revenge on men because you have gender issues. You think that it’s not sexist to make these blanket claims about men and women, but it really is.

          The problem isn’t women setting standards, it’s what standards and which women. Women like you who have serious issues with men don’t need to be setting the standards. You are not even the norm among women. I would not find a man who hates women to set standards for women. If anything I suggest the gender norms we do embrace to be established by people outside the gender dialogue because those in it have agendas.

          Equality isn’t that complicated. Treat people the same. If you are offended by being treated like a man then I suggest you avoid working around men.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mishagos Ian Kleinfeld

    I agree and disagree both. There IS a huge problem of sexism in the world as a whole, and in tech specifically. And the guys’ employer(s) should be under scrutiny and threat for firing them, although I suspect they were covering their asses against lawsuits that are all too common and not always fair.

    But I need to take issue with this article’s wildly inaccurate headline, which is one key to the complex and subtle problem here. This headline is as over the top and inaccurate as Adria’s assessment of the PyCon conference being a reenactment of the murderous fascist cautionary tale “Lord of the Flies,” the assessment that she says led to her urgent need to act in the over-the-top way she did. Apparently, before people were killed at the conference. Thank god for her prescience.

    This headline, “Fired for Complaining about About a Dirty Joke,” is for me, one of the problems with this whole thing by reframing Adria as an innocent whistle blower, and the humor as “dirty,” as if they were making jokes that ended with rape, goat-fornication, feces-fetishes, or hentai scenes.

    There is a huge difference (or dongle, perhaps) between that punch line and what the two guys did. And there is a huge difference between being fired for complaining about “dirty jokes” and purposely, calculatedly, publicly shaming and humiliating two equals in order to make an example out of them. Read her blog about it. That’s what she did. Purposely, calculatedly. Maybe she didn’t realize there would be severe consequences for the men, but you can no more make excuses for her lack of foresight than you can for theirs.

    She was fired for her absolutely garbage judgement of HOW she did it, when she was supposed to be bringing developers together. By doing something that nearly all women I’ve talked to say, “I wouldn’t have done it that way,” but then go on to excuse her for being frustrated at the end of a long conference of dick jokes, which apparently is all any males talked about at the conference. As if PyCon was really PenCon.

    So a more accurate and fair title would be “Fired for being a drama queen in her poor choice of how to address the issue when she could have talked to the guys, taken a picture and talked to the organizers privately, or just tell them to shut it, which people do in movie theaters all the time.”

    I’m sorry but I just don’t agree that she’s the major victim here. NO ONE should have been fired over this. But it was her public shaming that helped to create a public drama about it, leading the companies to cover their own asses by firing the men, then firing Adria.

    If any woman — or man — decides that this is a reason not to speak up in the future — as you suggest — then they, like you, are missing the point. Speak up, but do it IN AN ADULT, RESPONSIBLE WAY, especially if your job is “developer evangelist” rather than “developer persecutionist.”

    Of course, moron guys (mostly) who are making death threats, rape threats, and being abusive, are making things even more over-the-top and drama-lade (and in a weird way, thankfully) do show how profoundly deeply-entrenched sexism and violence against women is.

    My biggest frustration with all of this is the polarization of sides with no admission of wrongdoing anywhere. Adria makes no real apologies about her choices, and defends them vigorously. I haven’t seen anything from the guys. They companies fire everyone. Women bloggers defend Adria as a completely innocent victim (“though I wouldn’t have…” but then going on to make excuses for her), etc.

    I think everyone would be served if we all took a step back and acknowledge that everyone screwed up here, and then get on with addressing the sexism that Adria was (admirably) trying to address, but wound up doing it in a dumbass way.

    Go ahead. Rip me a new one.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Feral.9.Hex Carla Clark

      Ugh, yeah, someone SHOULD rip you a new one, because, apparently, you, a MAN, think you are entitled to say how Adria SHOULD have handled, based on anecdotal evidence. What if I say I’ve talked to several women who agree they WOULD have handled it that way? But, at least, in my case, this would be a woman expressing that shared view, not a man who feels inclined to shake his finger at us for not behaving like a good woman.

      Secondly, it seems you’re another moron who hasn’t read the article before posting a comment. What was at ISSUE was the fact that men face less punitive consequences than WOMEN for making such jokes. After most certainly being inundated with such comments on a large scale, especially in a developer evangelist environment, and most likely seeing how people would react to similar comments coming from women, I think her frustration was most likely warranted.

      But, of course, I forget, if women get too aggressive, they’re blamed for not acting like good little women. Yet, on the other hand, if they are not aggressive enough, they’re blamed for wanting to be treated equally, yet, on the other hand, not doing enough to ensure they are. Women, damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Men: Say whatever you want, get a full pardon.

      Herp derp.

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