Good Women have Abortions


The only thing that most Americans can agree on is that we are tired of the rancor, the partisanship, and the ugly rhetoric that has marked policy discussions and debates during the past election cycle. In the days following the election it seems there has been a slight shift in tone and a renewed commitment to talk about old issues in new ways. One area this change in tone is critically needed is on the topic of abortion.

The abortion debate in decades past has been one of stigma and shame. The anti-abortion movement promotes increasing regulation while voicing harsh rhetoric, and even attacking exceptions for rape, incest, and the health of the mother under attack. Elected male officials are primarily leading this charge while the voices of women who have had abortions have been largely absent or marginalized. This silencing of women’s voices is especially notable because the Guttmacher Institute reports that one in three American women will undergo an abortion in her lifetime.  Since 1973 when Roe v. Wade legalized abortion, approximately 53 million women have undergone the procedure.

It is understandable why most women who have had abortions are reluctant to speak out when the issue and their decisions are so stigmatized and politicized. However, it is time to turn the tide and start speaking about the topic of abortion and the women who have them in very different ways. Fortunately, we have some remarkable women who are leading the conversation.

Two of these women are Charlotte Taft, director of the Abortion Care Network, a coalition of independent abortion providers, and Shelley Oram of Imagine! Counseling.  After working with thousands of women coming in for abortions they have observed that good women, the majority of them women of faith, have abortions. They say to women, “You are a good woman. It may be hard for you to believe that right now, but deep in your heart you know you are making your decision out of a place of goodness. This pregnancy and whatever choice you make about it doesn’t change that. For some women abortion is a clear, certain decision. For others is can be really hard. For most women, it is somewhere in between.”

They encourage women to honor themselves and work to eschew the judgements of others. They remind women that the anti-abortion protesters don’t know them and what is in their heads and hearts. They also ask:

“Can it be that women know something very deep inside, even deeper than fear and shame? Can it be that women know it is their responsibility to decide when to bring new life into this world? Women are not the enemies of our children- even those we decide not to bring into the world.”

Another wonderful woman is Rev. Rebecca Turner,  executive director of the counseling center Faith Aloud and a minister in United Church of Christ. She says we must shift the abortion discussion away from the shaming perspective based on the belief that God is a judge, and on the view that there are specific rules to follow, punishment for those who don’t follow them, including hell, based in the view of women as creators of sin who must be chaste. Her alternative, and much more compassionate, view is that God is a friend, there is freedom and grace for all, nothing can separate one from the love of God, and the belief that women are moral and sexual beings.

If these ideas for framing the abortion question are adopted, policy decisions would look radically different. This is the hope and change American women desperately want in the policy debate on women’s reproductive health. This election women spoke. The only question is, will policy makers listen?

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  • apaniagu2

    Depsite national rhetoric, women like myself who are constantly standing up and speaking out for women on the ground levels are still met with stigma and dismissal even when we provide sound arguments backed by statistical evidence and facts. I was just on a radio show this past weekend and felt like I was talking to a wall. The host of the show claimed he was pro-choice but that he felt women should undergo “psychological counseling and be educated on their moral decision.” Bascially he wanted to guilt and shame women for their sexual activities and potentially have them second guess their decisions. I highly doubt anyone would sit a man down and counsel him over his sperm donation in a clinic. Women carry the evidence of sexual activity and are continually stigmatized for that act as well. I’m glad to see members of the faith community are addressing this issue with a rational and understanding lens. It may also be worth the faith community addresing their congregations about these issues and framing within a social justice lens. I’m, personally, a secular humanist and know that this is an issue that the religious and nonreligious can get behind.

  • prolifemama

    I agree that women should be able to speak about their abortion experience, but for this to be a balanced conversation, we must listen to those women who admit to regretting their abortions, as well as those who speak of their experience as a freeing one.

    Too often, I’ve been party to such debates in which everyone is sharing, then a woman will hesitatingly reveal that ten or fifteen years out from her abortion, she is still deeply mourning her decision and her lost child, even though she made that decision free of coercion, and fully informed regarding the procedure, the risks, etc.

    These women resented the ‘advice’ of counselors in the facility’s office who told her “It’s okay to be sad, it’s just like you’re not finishing a song or a poem you’ve been writing.” They were insulted to be told that their child is nothing more than an ‘unfinished project’ they’ve chosen to relinquish. Now that they’re feeling the freedom to open up about their abortions, they should not be made to feel that they’ve “bought in” to the guilt-mongering or shaming that pro-choice folk always suspect has been shoved into their faces; they may truly have had ambivalent emotions at the time of their abortions that we, their sisters, need to hear, and respect.

    We ARE stronger together, and that means listening to, and accepting with open and nonjudgmental hearts, EVERY woman’s story, EVERY woman’s pain.

  • colleen

    We ARE stronger together, and that means listening to, and accepting with open and nonjudgmental hearts, EVERY woman’s story, EVERY woman’s pain.

    I’m pretty sure that we aren’t stronger together if your aim is to make abortion illegal and force us to comply with a set of religious beliefs we don’t subscribe to. I see the women who parade around with signs that read “I regret my abortion” as women who are taking a stab at martyrdom and penance. I see them as modern day flagellants practicing a religion I do not subscribe to. My interest is anthropological.

  • prolifemama

    Colleen. Your anger toward these women is disturbing. Have you ever spoken with them? Listened to their stories? It appears you’ve pre-judged their motives and drawn very narrow conclusions. You may be surprised to learn that each one’s experience of regret differs, and that a faith practice isn’t always the motivating force in their decision to make their pain public. Many of them – and I have spoken with many – simply want to let others know that abortion isn’t the clean ‘break with the past’ it’s often painted to be; they sincerely want to be heard, and perhaps, hopefully, spare another woman the anguish they experienced.

  • jennifer-starr

    I don’t mind listening to the stories and I understand that they regret their choice. What I do object to is when they assume that everyone will feel the same way or when they work to take that choice away from other women. 

  • crowepps

    Certainly women have their own unique experience and react to it according to their own unique psychologies, but while I agree they may sincerely want to be heard, for them to assume that other women would have the *same* unusual experience they did or that other women would have the *same* reaction of anguish isn’t sensible at all.  As I understand it, research shows that the majority of women feel relief and while they may have regrets would still make the same choice, and actually those women who are not able to obtain abortions have more negative outcomes, so it seems kind of silly to insist all women must listen to the dire warnings of someone whose experience isn’t at all typical.

    I have a lot of sympathy and compassion for someone who regrets their prior life choices, particularly when they aren’t able to shoulder their own responsibility for what happened and instead blame their parents/boyfriend/doctor/society, but sympathy and compassion doesn’t mean I believe they are right about abortion being the wrong choice for other women.  I know a lot of women who sincerely regret that they had children, and who are filled with anguish because they believe they are poor mothers, but they rarely feel compelled to encourage other women to have abortions.

  • crowepps

    Certainly women have their own unique experience and react to it according to their own unique psychologies, but while I agree they may sincerely want to be heard, for them to assume that other women would have the *same* unusual experience they did or that other women would have the *same* reaction of anguish isn’t sensible at all.  As I understand it, research shows that the majority of women feel relief and while they may have regrets would still make the same choice, and actually those women who are not able to obtain abortions have more negative outcomes, so it seems kind of silly to insist all women must listen to the dire warnings of someone whose experience isn’t at all typical.

    I have a lot of sympathy and compassion for someone who regrets their prior life choices, particularly when they aren’t able to shoulder their own responsibility for what happened and instead blame their parents/boyfriend/doctor/society, but sympathy and compassion doesn’t mean I believe they are right about abortion being the wrong choice for other women.  I know a lot of women who sincerely regret that they had children, and who are filled with anguish because they believe they are poor mothers, but they rarely feel compelled to encourage other women to have abortions.

  • elburto

    I regret many things in my. life.

    I regret trying to force myself to like men.

    I regret wasting valuable years hating myself.

    I regret believing lies I was told about my medical con?dition.

    I regret the years stolen from me by my parents’ religion.

    I regret buying a breadmaker.

    Despite all of that I don’t wish to eradicate heterosexuality, freedom of religion, or the choice to buy crappy gadgets. Nor do I wish to force everyone to only ever have positive self-regard, or view all medical professionals as liars.

    Another thing is that all of my above experiences are true, but unique to my personal situation. I’ve personally exposed three women as liars, when inconsistencies about their alleged regretted abortions revealed that they were lying outright.

    However, they believed that the narrative they were offering as the truth was a universal experience, therefore lying4Jesus was justified if it scared women away from elective abortion.

    Finally – Even if there are women who regret their choice, who aren’t simply buckling under the weight of. religious and societal stigma, it’s still better than ever regretting the opposite choice.

    I’d take one million “I wish. I’d had that unwanted baby” over just one “I wish my. child had never been born” any day.

    Nonexistent children aren’t neglected, abused, unloved, traumatised, or murdered during a parental rage. Unwanted children suffer all of those things, and many more.

    It’s a far better thing for some women to need emotional support later on in their lives due to wondering “What if?” and second-guessing themselves, than for one child to hear “You were a mistake. I wish you’d never been born”.

    The former is a natural result of making any life-changing decision,, the latter destroys lives completely, and causes widespread splash damage to others too.

  • coralsea

    I particularly liked the highlighted quote in the middle:

     

    “Can it be that women know something very deep inside, even deeper than fear and shame? Can it be that women know it is their responsibility to decide when to bring new life into this world? Women are not the enemies of our children- even those we decide not to bring into the world.”

     

    Authoritarians don’t want anyone, especially women, making decisions that are based on independent thought and careful soul-searching, because if such activities were encouraged, there are many, many activities that people would think twice about engaging in or supporting (e.g., wars of adventure, putting people in prison for years for minor drug offenses, general pissing on the poor, because, hey, they are poor even if they are working full-time at jobs that pay way too little).

     

    Of course, there are also dangers of listening to one’s “inner voice” without input from compassionate and knowledgeable others — and we see this in religious cults where the “inner voices” of others tell them to “drink the Kool-aid,” or that child brides should honored to be married off to pedophiles, as well as the personal decisions of deluded individuals who use a sick inner voice to reassure herself that, yes, her husband is right to beat her for “mouthing off.”

     

    The solution is to encourage women (and men and children) to listen to their inner voices and to provide counsel to them, if asked, that is long on compassion and devoid of a bunch of religious or societal judgment that serves to control others without serving their true needs.  Making life decisions is messy and tough, but women need to be allowed to make all decisions regarding their bodies without having their inner voice drowned out by the screeching of religious or social authoritarians.

  • colleen

    The fact that I think you’re  manipulative and dishonest does not mean I am angry with your martyrs. Of course, they want to be heard, the flagellants sincerely wanted to he heard too. That was why they engaged in public displays of piety and self abnegation.

    Here’s the deal, their pain is entirely self induced and their position (and yours) does not make “us” stronger. That’s like saying that Sarah Palin’s run was a good for all women. Nothing could be further from the truth.

  • georgetteforney

    I’m troubled by the judgement amongst women who have different abortion expereinces. When a woman express regret after aboriton, she is labeled a religious fanatic or mentally unstable. Voices that don’t affirm the abortion expereince are typically ignored, attacked and ripped apart. No wonder the vast majority of those who have had abortions stay silent. I think they fear us more than society’s judgement.

    I am the co-founder of the Silent No More Awareness Campaign and we are women who regret our abortions. We share our stories to break the stigma and ensure that any woman having or person recommending abortion is fully aware of the impact the procedure has on women not only immediately afterwards but long-term.

    We are trying to do what many of you suggest – de-stigmitize abortion, but sadly because we don’t tow the pro-abortion line, your response re-inforces the message to keep quiet about our aboriton experience. Last year’s twitter hashtag #I Had An Abortion is a great example of this point.

     

     

  • coralsea

    Georgette –

     

    I think that there can be many reasons for regretting an abortion that don’t negate the importance of abortion being available to women who want or need this medical procedure.  Certainly, if a woman or girl is pushed into an abortion by her family, boyfriend, or husband because, in the case of the boyfriend or husband, they don’t want the responsibility, or in the case in the family, they believe that a teenage pregnancy will “tarnish their good name,” (note these are just examples), the girl or woman can definitely feel regret and anger–both over the abortion and especially, over having such a decision made for her.  

     

    I personally think that an honest dialogue is important to empower women to resist being coerced into undergoing any medical procedure to please other people.  This includes abortions to please uptight family members or getting breast implants because your boyfriend wants you to have big boobs.  However, because the anti-choice folks are SO BIG on playing the guilt card and the “morality, you will go to hell” card, I think that most of us who are strong pro-choicers cringe a bit when we hear of groups or individuals who want to warn women about regrets that they may or may not have.

     

    Abortion is a very personal choice.  Providing information and listening is important, but ultimately, every woman or girl has to be free to make her own choice.  Airing your own stories is a form of providing information, but since women have been SO bombarded with coercive messaging from the anti-choicers, often couched in apparent “concern” for the woman’s well-being when it most definitely isn’t, I can understand why many pro-choicers are reluctant to embrace your messages.   To me, this shows how embattled the right to abortion is in this country.  Even though this procedure is legal and many women have had it, the anti-choice forces are so strong and so determined to prevent women from this vital service, it is difficult for pro-choicers diversify their messages in a way that could appear in any way to lend support to the anti-choicers.

     

     

  • georgetteforney

    Coral -

    is that because protecting the right to abortion is more important than what’s right for women?

  • jennifer-starr

    Surely it’s up to each woman to make a decision as to what’s right for her?  I certainly can’t say what is right for all women. 

  • crowepps

    So how accepting and non-judgmental is “Silent No More”?  Do you include the stories of women who do NOT regret their abortions?

    If not, it sounds like just another ideological echo chamber, where the stories are all the same because it’s all People Like Us, and they are considered persuasive because everybody else *should* be Just Like Me.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    “the flagellants sincerely wanted to he heard too. That was why they engaged in public displays of piety and self abnegation”

    A great and sinister Jansenist heresy definition of the Munchausen Syndrome and Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome ruining the RCC for several centuries.  S & M lunatics shouldn’t be running any governments or churches.

  • coralsea

    Georgette — There are many decisions that girls and women (and for that matter, boys and men) make in their lives that may not turn out to be the absolute best decision over time — but they are decisions that need to be made by the individual rather than unduly influenced by social expections, other people’s religious beliefs, or repeated telling of other people’s bad experiences.  Women are already constantly bombarded with cautionary tales of all of the bad things that will befall us if we don’t act is some prescribed manner.   So some women regret having abortions?  That is very sad — but I daresay that most women and girls aren’t exactly making decisions regarding their bodies without a lot of thought–and without a lot of people talking at them and telling them what they should and shouldn’t do or should and shouldn’t feel.

     

    Your question, “Is that because protecting the right to abortion is more important than what’s right for women?” suggests to me that you believe that YOU know what is right for WOMEN in the collective (as in, all women).  Do you believe that it is “right” to pound them over the head with stories of regret?  I believe that most women are aware that any significant decision may result in regret.  Yes — everyone needs to know what they are getting into regarding all decisions (major decisions) in their lives — but ultimately, then need to make their own decisions rather than be unduly influenced by the fearful or angry projections of others.

     

    The decision to give birth is definitely one of these very personal decisions that needs, absolutely, to be the woman’s alone.  So is deciding whether or not to marry the guy your family thinks is “perfect” for you (when you aren’t sure, but your friends and family are rooting for a big, fun, wedding because, you know, it will be FUN!) or deciding whether or not to pursue a college degree in chemistry or engineering, because the people you know (and who love you but may still be hopelessly sexist), think it would be better if you became a teacher or a nurse because, you know, those are better “woman” jobs, and so-and-so’s daughter majored in engineering and hates it!

     

    Lest you pooh-pooh these examples and say they aren’t life or death, like removing a collection of cells that is months away from being able to live on its own, I would argue that MANY of the decisions that women are pushed into (and men, too, although they are often different types of decisions) have profound and lifelong effects.   In some cases, those who seek to exert influence are acting from a negative place, out of prejudice, out of their desire to impose their religious beliefs on others, or out of jealousy (“I got pregnant and I had the baby.  Why do you think  YOU should get out of it?)  In other cases, those who are seeking to exert influence may be well-meaning, but their advice still may not be the best (or may be utterly disastrous) for the person who is the subject of their influence.  Examples would be others who are speaking from their own hopes and dreams (“You’re so pretty — why would you want to work in a laboratory?”), from their own experiences (“Cousin Marcia didn’t want to get married right out of college, and now she’s 40 and still single.  It’s better not to wait!”), or as a projection of their own fears (“I tried to get into Medical school and it was just too hard.  I don’t see you being able to study harder than I did.”)

     

    What I am attempting to illustrate here is that people NEED to make their own decisions.  The more important or controversial those decisions are, the more likely one is to get lots and lots of advice.  Of course advice is important!  But from my own life’s experiences and from the experiences of others I know, even those who love you and care about you often don’t truly know enough about you to make major decisions — durable and healthy decisions– for you.   Family and friends already represent a double-edged sword when it comes to advice — and THEY are supposedly in your corner.  Given the religious beliefs and social expectations that some groups have regarding women (e.g., they should stay home; they shouldn’t “compete” with men; “maternal” instincts should over-ride every other concern), anyone who is pro-choice would naturally be wary of efforts to insert additional doubt — even out of a desire to “help” women — into the discussion of ABORTION RIGHTS.  

     

    You will note that I am saying “abortion rights” here.  Addressing whether an individual woman or girl should have an abortion is EXTREMELY PERSONAL, and it has to be made by the individual with, if she desires, input from knowledgeable and compassionate professionals who will respect her decision.  From everything I have heard regarding reproductive rights counselors, they don’t push abortion.  They walk the individual through the pros and cons and let HER DECIDE.

     

    Thus, I am not exactly sure what you are trying to provide other than an additional cautionary message that, I believe, is already well known.  Being well-meaning doesn’t make you right (or me right), and for that reason, women and girls need to make their own decisions that best fit their own needs and lives.  They have enough other people talking at them and telling them what they should do with their lives.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    But you antis oppose all life- and health-saving abortions as well, so you can’t claim to be pro-woman when forced birthing grossly maims and even murders women.

  • prolifemama

    Jennifer, from your hostile comment and the conclusions you draw about post-abortive women who regret their abortions, I rather doubt that you’ve actually listened, without judgment, for any meaningful amount of time, to such women. If you have truly heard their pain, and don’t begrudge them having a different experience (from yours, perhaps?), I don’t think you’d speak so harshly about them, or be so suspicious of their motives to share their regret. You seem predisposed to be angry with them the moment you learn they didn’t have the pain-free abortion experience you prefer.  They regret their decision, their choice. Is there no room in your heart for a suffering sister?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • jennifer-starr

    I’m puzzled as to where you see the hostility and anger in the above statements–please clarify. And no, having never been pregnant, I’m not speaking from any experience and I don’t begrudge them theirs.  I’m simply saying that their personal experience is just that–it is theirs, and it’s valid to them. Other women may not have the same feelings or regrets, and should be allowed to make the decision that is best for them. 

    The fact that someone regrets a choice doesn’t mean that others will–nor does it give someone license to take the choice away from someone else. 

  • crowepps

    Apparently you’re not ‘honoring’ their experience unless you do what they insist is good for you.  If you assert you want to have the option of making a different choice, that means you haven’t “actually listened, without judgment, for any meaningful amount of time” because “If you have truly heard their pain” then you will allow them to make your decision.

    This circular argument brought to you by those people who use the exact same argument to insist that if you *really* understood their religion, then you would convert, and if you don’t want to convert, well, obviously you don’t understand and aren’t *respecting* their faith so you are obligated to listen while they *explain* some more.

    As near as I can tell, the hope is that eventually you’ll give in out of sheer exhaustion.

  • goatini

    in your quite brief post, to which Misery Pimp Concern Troll attributed quite an imaginative laundry list of imagined offenses.  

    You said that you were open to listening to the experiences of others, and that you were not open to said “others” imposing their own agenda and attempting to meddle with settled civil rights laws.

    Which was a perfectly reasonable response, assuming that the poster to whom you were responding had a geniune interest in genuine dialog.  

    His/her response confirmed that s/he has no interest in dialog of any kind.  

    The Concern Trolls on this thread are Misery Pimps – they’re here to try to inflict false guilt, blame and shame, so they can keep their little Misery Pimp fiefdoms going.  They’re vultures, always on the lookout for fresh meat for their cushy little “non-profit” scams (often funded with state and Federal tax dollars under the BS “faith-based” umbrella).  

    The LAST thing these Misery Pimps want is honest and open dialog about reproductive justice.  

  • crowepps

    Silent No More Awareness is a Campaign whereby Christians make the public aware of the devastation abortion brings to women and men. The campaign seeks to expose and heal the secrecy and silence surrounding the emotional and physical pain of abortion.

    The Campaign is a project of Priests for Life and Anglicans for Life.

    http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/about-us/index.aspx

  • prolifemama

    Crowepps, you, and others on this forum, have constructed an anti-choice whiner to complain about. Have any of you ever really listened to a woman in pain who regrets her abortion, who is mourning the loss of her child? Does it make it easier for you to dismiss her and her remorse by turning her into an anti-choice demon? Does it not occur to you she may have no such agenda, that she genuinely wants to help another woman avoid the pain she’s in, and that her pain will be just as intense as it is now, until the moment of her own death?

     

  • prolifemama

    Colleen, why do you think I’m manipulative and dishonest?

  • prolifemama

    I’m beginning to doubt that any pro-choice women on this forum have ever spoken with (not yelled AT) prolife women, or listened to their views on abortion. You clamor for dialogue, then when you get some, you belittle the speaker, attack her views and her beliefs, and make her motives suspect.

  • jennifer-starr

    I  listen–I acknowledge her pain and remorse–that it is very real for her. I can even acknowledge that she may be well-meaning and have the best of intentions. But listening does mean that I have to agree with her or make the decision that she would like me to make. I’m sorry–I  feel like I’m repeating myself but this is what I’m trying to say. 

  • jennifer-starr

    First off, I tend not to shout at people. Secondly, I’m getting the feeling from you that unless we agree with these women and change our views accordingly, then in your opinion we haven’t actually listened. Is that what you’re telling us?  

     

  • saraht

    Good women cherish the sanctity of life and know that it is not an option to extinguish a life because it is inconvenient for them, untimely or they regret slutty behavior with someone they don’t care for.  Good women do not murder innocent babies as they recognize that life and death issues are the province of G-d.

    This is the most disgraceful title I have EVER seen in my ENTIRE life.  Pro-abortion (really pro-murder) women are the worst people in the world.  Any woman who thinks it’s “good” to take a life is a disgusting sub-human being.

    A truly good woman is a nurturer who protects human life.

     

     

     

  • jennifer-starr

    Boy, you really don’t mince words, do you?  And to think I was called ‘angry’ and ‘hostile’… :) 

     

    So, good women are just like you–or like you imagine yourself to be. Right?  Think like you, act like you, dress like you, follow the same God that you do. And all good women want to be nuturing mommies, because that’s a woman’s role–how dare she try to escape it. And good women never get raped, or have life-threatening pregnancy issues–they never carry fetuses that have a fatal anamoly–such things never happen to ‘good’ women. 

     

     And then you can sit atop your little hill and feel all holier than thou when you self-righteously sneer at all those ‘bad’ and ‘different’ women down below. Will that make you feel better?  

  • crowepps

    You have no knowledge about what we think or what our own life experiences have been and so your attempts to shame us for not being sympathetic enough aren’t bearing fruit.  That must be really frustrating for you.  After all, your success at shaming women is why you get paid the big bucks to run your non-profit, isn’t it?

    Certainly I have known and listened to women who regret their abortions, as I have listened to women who do not, and in my experience, while those who continue to feel pain aren’t ‘anti-choice demons’, they continue to feel pain just as intense as it is now until the moment of their death because they are *encouraged* to feel that way by people who believe continuing to be in pain is good for them as the obligatory ‘penance’ to pay for their ‘sin’,  people who encourage women to cling to their pain because it makes them easier to control and is convenient for political purposes.

    I certainly don’t feel those individual women necessarily have an anti-choice agenda, but the fact is that Priests For Life does have such an agenda, returning women to their ‘traditional’ status of endless self-abnegation as reproductive and household slaves, and they and you are encouraging these women to feel their ‘testimony’ will ‘save’ other women when it’s just not true.  Perhaps you might want to skip the guilt-trips and the prolonged penance and direct them to real mental health counselors who can help them reconcile with their past, mourn their lost pregnancies, and stop torturing themselves.

    It’s ironic that you protest we’re being cruel by telling these women that we see no use in their continued wallowing in their old pain because it isn’t necessary, but you don’t recognize how much harm you are doing to them by insisting they *must* feel that way lifelong.

  • prolifemama

    Georgette, I’m listening. Thank you for your courageous stance for women – all women – and for persevering in an atmosphere of cynicism and ridicule. You’re right – if abortion isn’t the empowering experience for women that pro-choice folk insist it is, they’re hounded from our midst as self-made martyrs, unstable loonies, or anti-women. Please continue to provide a space for all our sisters’ voices who speak their anguish to a world of deaf and hate-filled women, who should practice what they preach.

  • goatini

    get a room?

  • prolifemama

    No, Jennifer, that is not what I’m asking (not telling). And thank you for continuing to dialogue with me. I appreciate your time and comments. I am simply putting before everyone the fact that women often regret having an abortion, and need to be listened to when they voice this regret. They need support in their pain, not accusation, not cynicism. They don’t need to be pigeonholed as religious fanatics with a sinister agenda of making other women change their minds, or telling them they’ll go to hell. Most post-abortive women I’ve spoken with, who are experiencing remorse and mourning over their lost children, are extremely hesitate to publicly tell their stories, because they’re afraid they’ll receive just the kind of treatment they’re getting from posters here.

  • prolifemama

    It seems to me that if a mourning woman speaking her mind and heart about her negative abortion experience, and voicing her regret over her lost child causes so many of you to have such a violent reaction of rejection of her and her feelings, then perhaps you already feel ambivalence – guilt? – about the ‘rightness’ of abortion…perhaps these women’s words are hitting a little too close to home…

    One thing is clear – there is an incredible amount of deep pain on this forum, a lot of self-denial on the part of those suffering such anguish. People in pain often lash out and attack those who would offer sympathy.

  • crowepps

    “the kind of treatment they’re getting from posters here.”

    THEY’RE getting?  If you are speaking of YOUR own personal abortion regret why do you keep saying “women I’ve spoken with” instead of talking about your own experience?  Or do you mean that since you consider the comments here negative and suspicious and cynical you’re updating those women by e-mail with every detail to ensure they are personally hurt and insulted?

    I am sure it will astonish you to know that over the years some women have indeed posted here about their own personal abortion experiences and honest regrets and have in the main been listened to kindly and respectfully.  I don’t think those women are “religious fanatics with a sinister agenda of making other women change their minds, or telling them they’ll go to hell.”  I think that might be a good description of Priests For Life, however, and/or you.

    I have no interest in causing further pain to any woman who regrets her past decisions, but you’re not one of those women.  You claim merely to be speaking *on behalf of* post-abortive women, and frankly, they can speak for themselves.  Your attempt to harvest their pain and use it as a shield behind while you can hide your own agenda isn’t “support” for them but instead a cynical attempt to use them.

  • crowepps

    Sure something, aren’t they?

  • coralsea

    Boy, ProlifeMama, you really are coming from somewhere that is truly weird.  The empowerment of women doesn’t come from HAVING abortions — it comes from making one’s own decisions, which may include ending a pregnancy.  Do you see the distinction?   Mentally healthy people wish to be secure in themselves and, to the greatest extent possible, to be able to make their own decisions about their lives.  Control over one’s body — including the ability to control whether one gives birth or not – is central to control over one’s life. 

     

    I have spoken extensively with several “pro-life” people, including several ultra-religious family members, who harbor this belief that feminists and other pushy, selfish broads are just itching for an opportunity to have an abortion!  Huh?  Do you honestly believe that women actively embrace abortion as some weird “right of passage,” or that this is what pro-choice activists are in some way endorsing?  Because that is basically one of the outrageous concepts that appears to underpin some anti-choicers’ views of the pro-choice position — that abortion is some evil, secular ritual (or evil demonic ritual) that women seek out to “empower” themselves by way of “blood sacrifice” or something equally dramatic.   

     

    Well, guess what?  The vast majority of women who have abortions would have preferred that their birth control hadn’t failed, that they hadn’t been raped, that the fetus didn’t have abnormalities, or that carrying the fetus to term wouldn’t endanger her health.   They would rather NOT be pregnant with a pregnancy they don’t want, can’t afford, isn’t viable (or would result in a severely impaired baby), or may harm their own health (or even kill them).  No one is happy about the situation any more than one would be happy about having her house burn down.  What mentally healthy women want is the ability to decide how they are going to resolve a sad situation that they never wanted in the first place. 

     

    Thus, the “empowerment” comes from the ability to decide for oneself whether to continue an unwanted, unviable, or dangerous pregnancy — not from the act of the abortion itself.   If you don’t understand this, then you really do need to leave the dialogue.  There are already enough anti-choicers out there who are more interested in “controlling” women’s bodies and behaviors than what may, or may not, be what the women themselves want in their lives.

  • coralsea

    saraht — You sound as if you are simply parroting what some Priest or other “religious leader” has told you.  Since you apparently haven’t yet learned to think for yourself (or don’t want to do so), I won’t waste my breath trying to convince you otherwise.  Instead, I will only say that life is a complicated thing not always given to absolutes, and that you may someday find that nuturing the lives of one or a few may mean that you decide — even passively — to turn your back on others.

     

    Women are not simply vessels used to grow babies, no matter what you have been told.   Also, I find it worrisome that you are so willing (and even embracing of the opportunity) to relegate others who don’t live up to your standards as “disgusting sub-human beings.”   People who hold such beliefs aren’t exactly nuturing.

  • coralsea

    ProlifeMama –

     

    I think you mistake sympathy with a form of aggression.  You know — where you cry and rock and “sympathize” with the person who has done something that has “hurt” them not to help them, but to make sure they know just how wrong they were to have made the decision they made.  It may pump you up, but it doesn’t do squat for the other person but make her feel worse — which, I gather from your comments, is the whole point. 

     

    Please get your psychic vampire fix elsewhere.

  • coralsea

    ProlifeMama — you might wish to look up the term “passive-agressive.”  You might also want to look up the terms “dialogue” and “listen.”  Having a dialogue and listening (which is a necessary component of the dialogue) doesn’t mean that you will ultimately agree with the other party(s).  You certainly don’t agree with us.  But you apparently believe that OUR unwillingness to agree with you means that we are attacking you.  We aren’t (or at least, I’m not).  We simply don’t agree.

     

    When one continues to push her views on those who have on several occasions engaged you in dialogue and disagree, then the continued pushing is a form of aggression and bullying.  It may be what so-called “religious” people do as a matter of course, but some of the rest of us call it annoying, disrespectful of others beliefs, and, yes, bullying.

     

    As for “yelling,” in my experience, people amp up the volume when others indicate, by the constant repetition of their views, that they either haven’t heard, or don’t care what the other people believe.

     

    In terms of productive dialogues, I am an environmental consultant who specializes in working with communities where people have concerns about environmental issues (e.g., contamination, emissions from local factories).  Even when all of the information is laid out on the table (e.g., EPA’s findings regarding whether people are being exposed, whether exposures are sufficient to cause health effects), some people may still not agree or believe the findings.  Continued dialogue can definitely help — often by expanding the areas of discussion to include more information on potential area exposures, additional measures that can be taken to minimize exposures, and the like.  Still, in some cases, not everyone is pleased.

     

    Rather than continuing down the path you have taken in this thread (that some women regret having abortions), it could be productive to look at other, related issues, such as the availability and efficacy of birth control, the cost of housing, daycare, medical care, of single mothers or poor families, or providing real, medically accurate and socially effective sex education.  Through such dialogues, you may be able to build a common ground that will allow a subsequent and respectful dialogue on the issue you have brought up here.  Finding areas of agreement elsewhere can build the trust necessary to deal with contentious issues. 

  • thalwen

    It seems to me, that you have are in deep denial that the vast majority of women do not experience things the way you would like. 

    I think you are also mistaking “anger-rooting-from-self-delusion” or w/e with being rather annoyed by a concern troll that complains about teh evil feminazis daring to think differently than how women “should” think. The vast majority of women do not regret their abortion. The ones that do tend to get over it in time just like people who regret other major life choices.

    There is no shortage out there of support for women who have had post-abortive experiences that are negative. In fact, there are people that get all hot and bothered by the idea of having a living person who they can use for their concern-troll agenda of pretending to care about women while working to deny them them the right to be treated like a person under the law. There is no shortage of people happy to shame women for having an abortion or to tell them if they have no regrets then they’re in denial. 

    Of course, you know this as you are part of those people out there “helping” women and you came here specifically to concern-troll and now you’re butthurt. So let me help you – go back to your little concern-troll hub where you can cry about how the mean feminazis dared to disagree with you and how that caused you so much butthurt and how you really know that we’d be better off being treated like children with no rights if only we weren’t so self-deluded by our weekly abortion/mani/pedi sessions.

  • coralsea

    This idea that women can’t decide something for themselves — that they need “psychological counseling” — is incredibly infantilizing and insulting.  And the idea that they should be “educated on their moral decision” is truly obscene.  There are enough religions around that seek to keep “women in their place.”  Believe me, we already go that message.

     

    Please continue with your outreach, apaniagu.  Despite ignorant talk show hosts, there are women out there who are being subjected to the “moral decision” hogwash, and they need to hear from you and others that there are other alternatives for them than “behaving” as authoritarian jerks want them to behave! 

  • coralsea

    I agree with Crowepps, who has stated that there are some people who seek to perpetuate the pain (or who “construct” this pain, explaining that the self-denial of it has caused other problems in the person’s life, such as Depression or bi-polar disorder) because THEY don’t want the sufferer to heal and move on.  Anyone who continues to cause another to focus on the regret they may hold from a decision they’ve made is a SADIST.

    We all have regrets for things we’ve done or for the things we didn’t do.  Mentally healthy people are urged to go through a grieving process and move on with their lives.   To suggest that women shouldn’t seek to do this is utterly sadistic.  It also smacks of the type of absolutist belief that can make some organized religious groups so poisonous.

  • beenthere72

    And there it is.  If we’re not feeling all the guilt, shame and pain *you* think post-abortive women should feel then we’re in ‘self-denial’.  

     

    Such a hypocrite to accuse us of being judgemental.     

     

     

  • crowepps

    There’s also a presupposition there that we’ve all had abortions, probably for convenience.

  • goatini

    of passive-aggressive projection, since quite a few of us commenting here have never obtained a pregnancy termination.  

    Advocates for reproductive freedom and justice come from all walks of life and all kinds of experiences.  We trust women to make their own decisions, we work to make sure that women can make their own decisions without obstruction or obstacles, and we work to make sure that every woman’s own decision is honored and respected.  

    On the other hand, Misery Pimps have a vested interest in selling fake “mourning”, “regret”, “guilt”, “pain”, “suffering” and “anguish” – as well as attempting to foment fake “violen(ce)”, “rejection”, “lash(ing) out” and “attack” on the part of those who aren’t buying the overwrought passive aggression, and the fake blame and shame.  

    One thing is clear – we advocates for reproductive freedom and justice offer trust, honor and respect, while all the Misery Pimps have to offer is fake guilt, blame and shame.  

    Oh, and one more thing – the only word in your post that was factual in re your comments and ideology, was “incredible”.

  • crowepps

    What else?  “The Campaign is a project of Priests for Life”, the people who think the best way to ‘discuss’ things is displays of revolting torture porn –

  • crowepps

    What else?  “The Campaign is a project of Priests for Life”, the people who think the best way to ‘discuss’ things is displays of revolting torture porn –

  • goatini

    Doing such harm is what keeps their Misery Pimp fiefdoms going.  Every woman who has obtained reproductive health care is a potential “client”.  

    Mr Pavone’s lucrative enterprises are unassailable (under current tax code) black boxes, into which non-taxable donations are poured, then spent by the “insiders” without any accountability whatsover.  

    If so-called “Priests For Life”, and its toxic blame-and-shame subsidiaries, were investigated and audited with one-tenth of the vigor and scrutiny imposed upon Planned Parenthood by the Dominionist theocrats in government, they’d have been out of business long ago.

  • rebellious-grrl

    I do not mourn my decision to have an abortion. I do not regret at all, not one bit. I know it was the right decision for me. I don’t see your viewpoint as nonjudgmental, just the opposite. You are judging me for not feeling shame over my decision. 

     

    Not sure what you mean by this, “they should not be made to feel that they’ve ‘bought in’ to the guilt-mongering or shaming that pro-choice folk always suspect has been shoved into their faces; they may truly have had ambivalent emotions at the time of their abortions that we, their sisters, need to hear, and respect.”

    I had no ambivalent emotions when I had an abortion. I felt relief that I was no longer pregnant. I’m sure you will argue with what I’m saying. If you do, YOU are not listening to me. My personal health decisions are none of your business. 

  • rebellious-grrl

    What? Her anger? What the hell are you talking about? You don’t have a clue what you are talking about as there is no anger in what colleen is saying. 

  • rebellious-grrl

    It’s interesting how you attack us as being “angry” and “hostile” because we don’t fit your anti-choice narrative. Please get real and quit your hostile attacks on us.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Great post! I love the name “Misery Pimps” because that’s exactly what they are. 

  • goatini

    Well, how noble and holy of you.  Let’s see how that works out for you with the next opportunistic infection or virus you happen to encounter.  

  • rebellious-grrl

    saraht – Do you represent the viewpoint of Silent No More? I AM a good woman and I had an abortion so get over it. 

  • rebellious-grrl

    You’re not trying to de-stigmatize abortion, quite the opposite. You want all women to feel remorse and regret. If we don’t then we’re bad women. How does my saying I had an abortion make other women “keep quiet” about abortion?

  • colleen

    I’ve been addressing my concerns with your dishonesty in every response. As far as I can tell the other women here have been doing so also.  I’m certain that if  you learn to listen to the honest responses of  unapologetically pro-choice  women your question will be answered satisfactorily.

     

  • colleen

    Does it not occur to you she may have no such agenda, that she genuinely wants to help another woman avoid the pain she’s in, and that her pain will be just as intense as it is now, until the moment of her own death?

    Perhaps the problem isn’t abortion. Perhaps she would be more comfortable if she converted to a religion that does not hold up the natural inferiority of women as a foundational principle.

  • colleen

    This circular argument brought to you by those people who use the exact same argument to insist that if you *really* understood their religion, then you would convert, and if you don’t want to convert, well, obviously you don’t understand and aren’t *respecting* their faith so you are obligated to listen while they *explain* some more.

    Fortunately for us the religious right also uses this sort of argument as a political strategy.

     

    As near as I can tell, the hope is that eventually you’ll give in out of sheer exhaustion.

    What I don’t understand is why the existential pain of the flagellants is supposed to have such a profound effect. I suppose it really helps to remember that Priests for Life is mainly concerned with fundraising from rubes in a crowded, competitive field.

  • crowepps

    Zurek sent a letter to all U.S. bishops on Sept. 9, announcing that he was suspending Pavone from ministry outside his diocese after “persistent questions and concerns” from clergy and laity about how Priests for Life is spending “millions of dollars in donations.”

    “My decision is the result of deep concerns regarding his stewardship of the finances of the Priests for Life (PFL) organization,”
    Zurek wrote in the letter, which was first reported on Tuesday by Catholic News Service. “The PFL has become a business that is quite lucrative which provides Father Pavone with financial independence from all legitimate ecclesiastical oversight.”

    According to CNS, Internal Revenue Service records show the organization took in $10.8 million in 2008, the latest year tax forms were available.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/13/frank-pavone-anti-abortion-catholic-activist_n_960843.html

     

  • coralsea

    This isn’t the forum for a deep discussion regarding religion, but when certain religious groups (e.g., fundamentalist, Bible-Believing Christians) seem to be as much or more interested in controlling women’s behavior and shaming them for having sex or for not feeling sufficiently “maternal” to be willing to have baby after baby or die from pregnancy induced eclampsia, that isn’t life-affirming, that’s life-squashing.  Although I know people who embrace the best of the faiths they follow and derive joy and contentment from them (which is great), I also know many more people for whom organized religion acts as a bludgeon and a red-hot poker — to force them into acting a certain way and feeling guilty if they don’t (or better yet, forcing them to feel guilty if they do, because maybe they should have done it better or sooner).

     

     

     

     

     

  • coralsea

    Crowepps –  I agree with you.  I think these folks are either an intentional “front group” (an organization that says it is neutral or represents “concerned citizens” but is, in fact, an organization trumped up by a public relations firm to put forth some unseen group’s agenda) or they are allowing themselves to be manipulated by the anti-choice folks with the same results, because, as you say, “People like us” are persuasive.

     

    Because of the damage such groups can do to the public dialogue, they need to be called out so that people know what their true agendas are.

     

  • goatini

    to screech that he and his Misery Pimp fiefdom have been, of late, “vindicated” of financial malfeasance, I would like to remind the readership that what actually occurred was that the Vatican upheld the decision of Mr Pavone’s immediate superior to assign him to a position as chaplain of a religious community in Channing TX, and that Mr Pavone’s immediate superior has affirmed the current pastoral assignment, which supersedes any possibility of full-time work being performed for the so-called “Priests For Life”.  

    Furthermore, his immediate superior has also affirmed that any participation by Mr Pavone in “pro-life events” may only be done in individual cases, for which specific permission to do so must previously have been agreed to and granted by said superior. 

  • colleen

    Perhaps ‘Silent no More’ is like ’40 days for Life’ or ‘The Pill Kills’ or those other fund raising attempts. I’m really amused that the otherwise unemployable women posting for Priests for Life here try to present themselves as secular and feminist.

  • crowepps

    It isn’t so much the ‘Catholic’ as it is the ‘fundamentalist’ — it’s been my experience that all religions have a 7-10% minority of black/white thinkers who insist that True Believers must practice the religion ritualistically and perfectly, and who gravitate to the most extreme, rigid ways of doing so.  They certainly have every right to do exactly as they believe they are called to do, but endless trouble is caused by their insistence that they have the right to insist everyone else join them, and their rejection of others’ right to their own opinions and their own faith.  Father Pavone and Priests For Life may believe as they choose, persuade as they are able, even guilt-trip the gullible, but they may NOT use civil law to demand access to strangers so they can shame those who aren’t interested in their extremism.

  • crowepps

    Father Pavone can protest that they couldn’t prove anything all he wants — while it’s true that he didn’t formally take a (taxable) salary, the $10 million a year covered all those personal expenses ordinary people do pay for with their salaries, like travel, meals, private airplanes, etc., and certainly could have been more usefully invested in, just for instance, feeding poor children.

  • crowepps

    What I don’t understand is why the existential pain of the flagellants is supposed to have such a profound effect.

    You have to keep their world view in mind — they believe their God is swayed by exactly such existential pain, that seeking out and wallowing in pain pleases Him as a sign you choose to voluntarily share His suffering, and that he inhales the aroma of misery as if it were perfume.

  • fia-porter

    Duplicate, sorry.

  • saraht

    All those who posted extolling the virtues of murdering babies are diabolical soul-less creatures not worthy of the descriptor “woman.”  

    These are the very same people who would stage a major rally over pate-making, killing kittens, wearing fur or aborting dog fetuses.  

    They fail to value human life (these PETA-ites value animals more than humans) because they are G-d-less and not in awe of human creation in the image of G-d.

    No true HUMAN being can celebrate abortion – the extinction of innocent life by your hand.  Shame, shame, shame on you!

     

  • goatini

    women’s societal status to be that of livestock – mindless reproducers – who are in truth diabolical soul-less creatures.

  • thalwen

    Since it takes a human sperm and a human egg to make a human zygote/embryo/fetus, and by your logic, it’s ok to kill things that aren’t human, then you should be fine with the evil subhuman feminazis (who have the radical view that killing kittens is bad?) having abortions since we, by your definition aren’t human, so are incapable of producing human babies. By your definition, abortion isn’t an issue at all because the only humans in your little imaginary world are anti-abortion. 

    But whatever, as long as you can rant and call the slutty feminists bad things right?

  • colleen

    How fortunate that the unapologetically pro-choice women here never advocate “murdering babies”. Indeed, unlike the women associated with Frank Pavlone,  We try to protect children from men who want to fuck them and tell them that having an adult male  penis up their small anal cavity (how that must hurt!) is what God’s love feels like.  I often ask myself what sorts of women would aid such religious practices and thank you so much for coming here and shining some light on that question. That said,  I do not “celebrate” abortion anymore than I “celebrate” open heart surgery.

     

  • coralsea

    Saraht, you appear to be filled with a venomous religiousity that suggests that love for others is pretty far down on your list.   If you really are formed in an image of your god, then he’s one nasty dude who obviously fills you with fear and anger.  Redirecting this fear and anger at women who don’t behave as you believe we should adds nothing to humanity, to the rest of the world, or to your own well-being.   You are foolish, deluded, and hateful, and I am sorry for you that your life has thus far been lived in a religious wasteland of condemnation.  I hope you find your way out someday.  If not, then I hope that the damage you do is limited to yourself (although even that is sad).

  • colleen

    As I understand it, in this worldview all abortions, including the ones to save the life of the pregnant woman, are dismissed as an abortion of convenience. Women should be happy to endure a long and painful death rather than live with the shame of having a life saving abortion.

  • crowepps

    You missed the site title, Sarah.  This is reproductive health REALITY check.  The only thing in your diatribe that I found true was that I am “not in awe of human creation”, since I don’t think the universe is All About Me.

  • saraht

    I am a virtuous, educated woman who has been married for 40 years to a wonderful, moral man.  We have four grown sons:  an orthopedic surgeon, an opthamologist, a tax attorney and a CPA; two married with two children each; one engaged and one in his early 20′s.

    The immorality of people writing on this site is astonishing!  What kind of moral compass must someone have who seriously and righteously claims that extinguishing two precious lives were A+ decisions!  Have you EVER heard of ADOPTION instead of murder?  

    Trashy, slutty behavior begets evil decisions such as abortion (really, killing) and out-of-wedlock births.  To justify such disgraceful behavior is the height of moral deprecation!

  • jennifer-starr

    Virtuous is not how I would describe you, Sarah.  The words I’d use to describe you (from what you’ve posted here),  would be priggish, self-righteous, prideful, mean-spirited–in Biblical language you’re a regular Pharisee.  It must have been hard for your children–anything less than buttoned-down perfection and you’d probably disown them. At this point your nose is so far up in the air that I’m betting you need someone else to tie your shoes. 

  • crowepps

    You did a great job of pretending you’re an obnoxious Church Lady type and making anti-abortion moralists look mean spirited and ridiculous!

  • coralsea

    Sarah, I don’t know how you define virtuous — probably according to your interpretation of the Bible — but as far as I am concerned, being extremely judgmental negates a good portion of whatever other “virtuous” acts you can claim.  I am glad for you that you have had a good marriage and are happy with your own reproductive choices, but I wouldn’t consider you to be particularly well educated.  Education doesn’t stop after college (I expect that you went) or consist solely of continued Bible study or attending book group discussions.  If you actually were well educated, you would have a greater understanding of the reality of others’ lives after approximately 60 years of life.  You don’t have to agree with all of their choices (I know that I don’t), but you should have figured out by now that even good people invariably fall short of perfection.

     

    I grew up around people like you: pretentious, puffed up, and absolutely certain that some book of myths written by tribal goat herders living in the desert thousands of years ago represents the unwavering truth.  Sex horrifies you — and frankly, if sex wasn’t involved, you wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about abortion, because you sure as heck care nothing for the well-being of the women or the children once the kid is born.  If you did, you would be more interested in social justice issues, like advocating for a “living wage,” rather then attempting to make women give birth no matter what their circumstances so that everyone (meaning people who think as you do) will know she was a total slut and had “the sex.”  Marriage is the be-all and end-all to you because of your desperate need to be a “superior” woman.  Your hit at out-of-wedlock births betrays your real concern, which, once again, is sex.  Bad, evil sex (in your opinion).  Over all, you are terrified of falling from your superior position financially, socially, and religiously.  You are so preoccupied with doing everything right according to some old book rife with ancient social and political agendas that you are probably on the edge of screaming most of the time.  You probably aren’t getting any physical release (like from sex with your wonderful moral husband or — well, whatever).

     

    The previous paragraph was very harsh and full of generalizations which may or may not completely fit your actual life.  However, we live different lives than you and, based on everything I have ever read from other commenters here, we strive to live good lives and treat others well.  If we have sex, that’s our business, not yours.  Contrary to all of your Biblical brainwashing, having sex isn’t a sin.  We don’t all believe what you believe (thank Goddess for that).   Deal with it.  And look in the mirror the next time you start calling other women “trashy” or “slutty” and see how ugly you look when you express those opinions.

     

     

  • nyandjim

    I’m just a guy.

     

    While I support Roe, I find abortions to be deplorable.

     

    I support Roe because the alternative for women needing an abortion are back alley procedures which are

    part of the basis supporting Roe.  That’s the main reason why I support Roe.  I can never, ever accept

    baby killing for non-essential reasons.

     

    The numbers of abortions since Roe, at 50+ million makes me ill.

     

    Can responsible, mature women get together and get a sustainable long-term birth control product or implant

    going and provided forall females upon reaching puberty?  This can stop a lot of abortions before they are needed.

     

    For me, just a guy, it comes down to:

    1)  I can accept my tax bucks going to provide birth control.  I have a much harder time squandering any money

    because someone behaves stupidly.

    2)  Abortion, just for the heck of it, is murder,  Ultimately, anyone who commits wanton murder will face up to this at

    the pearly gates, and God will decide.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    I miss Dana Carvey’s Church Lady! :D

  • coralsea

    Just a guy, you are ignorant.  And clearly, I wouldn’t want to depend on folks like you to determine what a “non-essential” reason is.  Also — your judgmental nature is showing in your last few statements about stupid behavior and “abortion just for the heck of it.”

     

    Please refrain from having sex with any woman of child-bearing age.  Since you clearly don’t respect women, you should leave them alone.  Moreover, you wouldn’t want to accidentally impregnate someone and make her wrestle with the consequences of having “behaved stupidly” by having sex with a moron.

     

    I swear — any guy who gets all judgmental about abortion should really refrain from sex.  After all, it takes your sperm to fertilize the egg, and we sure don’t want that, do we? 

  • give-em-hell-mary

    Sex-hating brood mare, I sure hope your hubby gets it on the side and that he, his mistresses, your kids, neighbors, parish and town are all laughing at you behind your hypocrite back as they did to my own nightmare Munchausen by Proxy, childbirth-ruined mom.  Harpies like you are exactly why many younger men refuse to marry at all because you are their worst nightmare.  Adoption won’t bring childbirth-murdered women back to life, repair their shredded lady parts, stop repulsed husbands from cheating, or put pedophile priests in jail.  I’ve had tons of plastic surgery to fix my mom’s anti-choice disfiguring abuse, and could certainly use a husband or boyfriend.  What’s your long-suffering husband’s phone number, because you sure don’t deserve him?!

  • give-em-hell-mary

    Mother killer, if God/Goddess opposed abortion, he/she wouldn’t also perform billions of abortions himself/herself.  Also, he/she would have ended humanity thousands, maybe millions of years ago.  Abortion is the world’s oldest medical procedure.

  • colleen

    I am a virtuous, educated woman who has been married for 40 years to a wonderful, moral man.

    You are ignorant, judgemental and I would be ashamed to be like you.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    Hypocrite, if you are a tea, coffee or wine drinker, you’ve given yourself many early abortions.  God/Goddess gave women 450+ abortifacient plants to avoid childbirth bladder and bowel incontinence, death and the molestation of their orphans by pedophile priests.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    I’m sorry to say that I used to be an obnoxious anti-choicer myself when I was a brainwashed, disfigured Catholic throw-away kid and young adult.  But even then, I fearlessly defied my abusive mom by supporting contraception, sterilization and Cinderella plastic surgery.  I didn’t know how frequently childbirth maimed and murdered women, and outsourced repulsed husbands like my dad to brothels.  I didn’t know the pedophile-serving Vatican ban on contraception forced my hell-fearing mom to disfigure me as her permanent abstinence excuse.  I wish she had aborted me instead.  Don’t stereotype us pro-choicers:  some of us were ostriches like you.  Abortion was, is and will always be legitimate maternal self-defense.

  • ljean8080

    aren’t you,Mary

  • thalwen

    Oh you got us all figured out.

    We have abortions “just for the heck of it.” We just go along with our lives, find ourselves pregnant, don’t think anything of it (little lady brains and all) and then on a whim decide to have abortions, you know – for the fun of it. We’re also too stupid to use birth control. So good of the menz to come along and solve everything for us or we’d be just gossiping and aborting and killing babies just for the heck of it all day long!

  • give-em-hell-mary

    These useful fools are probably discarded over-the-hill girlfriends of playboy priests like “Fathers” Tom Euteneuer and John Corapi!

  • give-em-hell-mary

    Pavone’s passport should be checked for Viagra vacations in Thailand and Manila! :D

  • give-em-hell-mary

    And many “Priests For Life” would be in jail for pedophilia!

  • give-em-hell-mary

    I’m simply hard reality-based, as opposed to self-centered, pedophile priest Kool-aid drinking ostriches like you.  My strong language is intended to knock sense into misogynist fetal idolators and their suicidal brood mares.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    Posted comment in wrong place.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    You condemn me for pointing out that your mother-killing, child-raping emperors are parading buck naked, yet meanwhile:

    http://www.alternet.org/belief/50-reasons-boycott-catholic-church?paging=off

    That you keep defending the RCC proves your own lack of morals, and your ongoing attacks on undocumented neighbors is so unclassy.

  • ljean8080

    nt.you know nothing about me.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    According to troubled priest therapist/author Dr. Richard Sipe, 90+% of priests break their chastity vows during their careers, and 50% at any given time are leading sexual double lives.

  • ljean8080

    are have consentual sex with adult women.

  • jennifer-starr

    Which their vows of chastity specifically forbid. 

  • give-em-hell-mary

    And they are forcing abortions on them to save their own reputations, while condemning millions of Savitas to gross injuries and/or death!  They are using Viagra and condoms with their call boys while condemning safe sex and marriage equality for everyone else!  While the pedophile numbers vary among institutions and orders (in some orphanages, ALL of the priests were pedophiles!), virtually all RCC clergy are leading double lives, criminally covering up pedophilia, and committing Munchausen by Proxy medical malpractice against the sexually active laity.

  • colleen

    The Catholic hierarchy is, in the main, clearly unable to control their own sexual impulses and your church has been a haven for pedophiles for centuries . Why should those of us who are not Catholic be forced to comply with the dogma of such men, particularly if we find those beliefs personally disgusting and morally abhorrent?  I don’t care that Priests fuck, I DO care that they blame women and children for their own lack of decency and self control. It revolts me that women like you make excuses for them and tacitly encourage their lack of responsibility and basic decency.

  • give-em-hell-mary

    So well said!

  • rebellious-grrl

    Thanks for posting the link. I saw this article today (and thought of you) but didn’t have time to read it earlier. I skimmed through the first 25. I’ll have to read the last 25 later — when I’m able to digest it. It’s insane how women have been oppressed by the RCC patriarchal leadership from its highest levels.

  • rhetoric-free-feminist

    “Can responsible, mature women get together and get a sustainable long-term birth control product or implant going and provided forall females upon reaching puberty?”


    According to guttmacher approx. half of all women who receive abortions were on birth control at the time of pregnancy. Clearly women who’ve had abortions are already largely “mature and responsible” about preventing pregnancy and clearly improvement in birth control efficacy and comprehensive sex education for all is needed. However if you are troubled about the high abortion rate and lack of better birth control I implore you to be a part of the solution rather than advising women of what they should do and take on that reproductive responsibility yourself. Or check your moral misgivings at the door of “not my problem”.  If your solution is to sit on your butt and only charge women and pubescent girls with being responsible for getting together and getting this currently unavaible 100% effective 100% safe birth control and “providing it to all females upon reaching puberty” than your opinion is only offensive. What is missing from your advice to all women is any advice at all to all men. ” Why don’t mature responsible men get together and get a sustainable long-term birth control product or implant going and provided for all males upon reaching puberty? This can stop a lot of abortions before they are needed”
    If you really want to reduce abortion get  you and your boys on the male pill!   We’ve already got morning sickness and pitocin and epiderals and csections and preclampsia and placenta previa and blood clots and miscarriage and breastfeeding to physically deal with. You can put  the social and medical burden of chemically altering fertility physiology on the male body and call it square.
     If you really want to reduce abortion charge your gender to stop raping women. Stop physical and emotional violence on women! Stop leaving women to be single parents! Stop abandoning your kids!  Stop stigmatizing women for getting pregnant under less than optimal circumstances! Pay child support! etc etc etc In essence stop leaving everything related to pregnancy prevention, maternal healthcare and parenting up to our gender while condemning us as immature/irresponsible  when we’re already the only gender held responsible at all.

    You mentioned God and the pearly gates so please refamiliar yourself with the verse about planks and specks…

     

     “… because someone behaves stupidly.”
    By “behaves stupid”  you must mean “has sex on birth control”. And I hope by “someone” you mean both genders, not just the woman.  

     “Abortion, just for the heck of it, is murder”
    Please stop saying that. That is cruel, inflammatory and untrue. Even if you hold that abortion takes a human being’s life surely you understand that not all actions which end human lives deserve the condemning label “murder”. For example sel
    f defense is not murder. Neither is pulling a terminally ill and suffering loved one off of life support and  making them comfortable until they pass. 

    By definition murder is “the unlawful killing with malicious aforethought”.  Abortion is legal/lawful therefore can not ,by definition ,be called murder. And if you research reasons why women get abortions “malice for the fetus” isn’t there to be found. Rather abortion choice is most often compelled by an inability to provide her fetus and/or current born children a deserving life and/or an inability to survive and thrive in this world with a child.

    When you call abortion murder you are calling women that you love murderers. 1 out of 3 pregnancies end in abortion. It is almost guaranteed that either your mother, your sister, your daughter or you lover has or will have an abortion. You are calling ladies you love and know to be good women and an entire third of this nation’s pregnant women murderers.  You are charging so many women with  the depth of twisted monstrous evil that  a cold-blooded sociopath who would violently kill a 4 yr old possesses. And these women are not evil bloodthirsty murderous villians- they are women. Shaming and demonizing women will not curb the abortion rate. All it does is alienate and hurt. There is no need for that word.

  • purplemistydez

    And where’s prolifemama?  Is this acceptable dialouge to you? 

  • purplemistydez

    Oh I am tired of your crap.  No one is discounting the experience of a woman who regretted their abortion.  We accept that some women do regret their abortions and others do not.  What you do not seem to understand is that the regret should be forced on other women.  They are more than welcome to come here and share their abortion story.  Just do not try to take away the choice from other women because you regretted your choice.  All adults have to deal with the decisions they make.  Yet you can not seem to get that some women do not regret their abortions and their perspective is just as valid.