• twocats

    Any woman who has ever had a transvaginal ultrasound knows how invasive a test that it is (I had it for diagnostic reasons; I was neither pregnant nor was there any possibility that I could be at that time).  It’s far more uncomfortable than the external ultrasound.  It’s one thing entirely to have it done with one’s full, uncoerced consent, but I can’t even begin to imagine how traumatic it would be to a woman or girl already traumatized by an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.

    The fact is that a woman considering abortion knows perfectly well that, if she does not have an abortion, she will, unless she miscarries on her own, have a baby to deal with at the end of the pregnancy.  That’s the problem. I’ve been an escort at a clinic that performs abortions and I never have come across someone who said she love to have a baby but she just doesn’t like being pregnant.

  • masaccio
  • freetobe

    trans-vaginal ultrasounds for diagnostic reasons. I went through menopause early. Not only that but I had to have a full bladder for the regular ultrasound which lasted well over a half an hour and so uncomfortable I rejected the thrid one they wanted to do! Not only that but I did not have out of hospital insurance coverage and had to pay 250.00 per procedure out of pocket because of a hospital error. The hospitol( I had to have a procedure done to stop excessive bleeding) made the costly error (for me) of not doing an expensive blood test to determine if I was in fact in pre- menopause but with which at least I had insurance coverage for!

    The patiient has to hold this oversized dildo type thing with a condomn on it on the outer part of the vagina. The technitions will not do that part. So what does that mean as far as rape? In my case it was either consent or risk possible cancer. I cannot imagine any woman wanting to go through this for a decision she has already made that is painful enough already. Just a horrible bill and so insulting to all women is right!

     

    Abortion out of convienience huh. Well lets see if it is about how one is going to support themselves and the childen they may already have that is anything but convience it is a nessasity to survival!

  • lisakaz

    You won’t believe how many blind supporters of this bill think this ultrasound law is like ultrasound you see on TV — the big bellied woman getting gel on the abdomen and ultrasound on the stomach. When I tell them they are wrong, they try to tell me I am. Perhaps these folks are intentionally deluded and trying to fool others. You have to widely emphasize what is involved here.

  • prochoicegrandma

    I want REVENGE!  I am a long-time resident of Vaginia, formerly known as Virginia. 

     

    I want a Bill introduced to require that all MEN must have a cystoscope, the standard RIGID one, to be shoved up their penis with vengeance before they can have Viagra, Cialis or any other ED penis pep pill – oh yeah, and it must be performed AGAINST THEIR WILL.  Excuse me, but what health benefit does Viagra provide other than to boost a man’s ego?  Birth control has a myriad of health benefits, which also benefit society by reducing unplanned pregnancies, and far fewer abortions!  Hey guys, it helps you too when you don’t have to pay 18 years of child support for a kid you didn’t want (although a large percentage of you deadbeat dads don’t pay anyway).

    Picture of standard rigid cystoscope:

    http://milamurology.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Rigid_Cystoscope.35065719_std.jpg 

     

    Sure, it would be an unnecessary medical procedure to require a cystoscopy, just as it is an unnecessary medical procedure to require a woman to have a trans-vaginal wand shoved up her hooha.

     

    Rachel Maddow has a great segment on Vaginia’s outrageous legislation requiring a woman seeking an abortion to have a trans-vaginal wand jammed up her vagina against her will.  It is unconscionable that a rape victim would be required to be raped a second time by the legislature! 

    http://tinyurl.com/7u99vqc  

    See the trans-vaginal wand at about 2:25 in the video.

     

  • jeff4952

    I think to say that its rape is a… bold claim.

    It’s like saying you’re sexually assulted at the airport.

    Guess what, if you don’t want a pat down, you  will not be catching that plane. 

    If you don’t want a trans vaginal ultrasound you won’t be getting an abortion.

     

    You want to play sports in highschool? you have to get a physical exam from a doctor… yeah forced molestation of our children…    please people. #dealwithit

     

    as far as the part about hormonal birth control… I’m not familliar with the law and i don’t feel like reading up on it (i don’t live in virginia).   but, depending on what it really says that might leave you some room to argue. 

     

    please, cool it with the rediculous claims of rape.

     

     

     

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    I think to say that its rape is a… bold claim.

     

    Just about anything that speaks against rape culture is a bold claim to most people. Same with speaking out against racism, sexism, and other -isms.

     

    It’s like saying you’re sexually assulted at the airport.

    Guess what, if you don’t want a pat down, you  will not be catching that plane. 

     

    So if the government were to require a pat-down before you were allowed to speak in a public square, that would be okay with you? “Guess what, if you don’t want a pat down, you  will not be venting your opinion in that square?”

     

    If you don’t want a trans vaginal ultrasound you won’t be getting an abortion.

     

    We’ll keep you in mind when someone decides to pass a law requiring a colonoscopy for a prostate-cancer prescription.

     

    You want to play sports in highschool? you have to get a physical exam from a doctor… yeah forced molestation of our children…    please people. #dealwithit

     

    No, actually, we’ll continue fighting for womens’ rights, thank you very much. #lookatthispatheticattempttodiscouragewomenfromstandingupforthemselves

     

    as far as the part about hormonal birth control… I’m not familliar with the law and i don’t feel like reading up on it (i don’t live in virginia).   but, depending on what it really says that might leave you some room to argue.

     

    What, you’re not going to tell women to deal with that too? Or did you still have some hope of ever having sex with one?

     

    please, cool it with the rediculous claims of rape.

     

    Rapists really seem to like saying that. I wonder why…

  • deb3350

    Unless you’ve had one done you have no way of knowing just how close this is to rape. Calling it that is in no way a bold claim, it’s a very realistic description. Not only that, it’s completely unnecessary, they are only calling for this type of ultrasound as a punishment for women who would have an abortion. 

  • deb3350

    When any of the procedures you’ve listed become as invasive as a trans vaginal ultrasound I’ll consider you’re point. Until then any of us who have had one done (for any reason) will consider it rape and rightly so! 

  • crowepps

    According to the Alaska statutes it’s “sexual penetration” which is the element necessary to charge “sexual assault”.  It is not medically necessary, and the woman being forced to tolerate it hasn’t committed any crime:

    AS 11.81.900. Definitions.

    (59) “sexual penetration” means
    (A) genital intercourse, cunnilingus, fellatio, anal intercourse, or an intrusion, however slight, of an object or any part of a person’s body into the genital or anal opening of another person’s body; each party to any of the acts described in this subparagraph is considered to be engaged in sexual penetration;
    (B) does not include acts
         (i) performed for the purpose of administering a recognized and lawful form of treatment that is reasonably adapted to promoting the physical health of the person being treated; or
        (ii) that are a necessary part of a search of a person committed to the custody of the Department of Corrections or the Department of Health and Social Services;
  • person-0

    …that it has come to this. The state is forcing women to be penetrated with an object against their will in order to obtain a LEGAL medical procedure. I don’t see how this could hold up in court. Do we know if any challenges are in process? This is most certainly rape and we should and will keep saying it until more people realize what is happening.

  • mary-catherine

    I wanted to thank you for your very appropriate outrage. I don’t usually make accounts so that I can reply, but I had to on this.

    I am equally outraged. There are no boundaries to it on this topic either.

    The general understanding of not only the delicate female anatomy, but the mental and spiritual aspects of being forcibly penetrated is so inept, it goes beyond words. I cannot believe that we are even talking about this. If I was raped and GOD FORBID, a child sprang forth, it would kill me to terminate the pregnancy because the child did not ask to either conceived, born or aborted, but I KNOW I WOULD NEVER be able to love the child of a man who forced his disgusting body into me, and further forced me to live and relive that nightmare over and over again. Never being able to trust a man again. Never feeling safe again…and if the way the people around me dealt with it was to punish me further by not only treating me like I was a Godless criminal for not wanting this demon’s seed of hate and violence growing inside me – and by the sounnd of this article, also the one who asked for it – but that I deserve to be further punished with another horribly painful and uncomfortable experience…it makes me delve into the realm of wanting serious revenge. Even just thinking about the suffering these men so fliply hope to inflict on women…it enrages me.

    Like an eye for an eye, a penis for a vagina. If policy makers want to rob us of our freedom, dignity, privacy and comfort, I say, let’s return the favour and shove a barbed, rusty tool up their holes because in the eyes of ‘kind of people’ (women…who I say are ‘kind of people because they aren’t being treated equally AT ALL) who are treated worse than dogs, in my second sex opinion, that kind of revenge would be ‘normal’.

    Peace and blessings to you anyway. Some kinds of rage are NECESSARY. Especially in a day and age when everyone seems so damn apathetic.

  • susmart3

    Check the LEGAL DEFINITION, you moron.

  • jennifer-starr

    The day you have something shoved up your nether regions  against your will and for reasons that are completely medically unnecessary,  Jeff, then maybe we can talk. Until then, I’ll continue to call it rape–because it is. 

  • divine-oubliette

    Because the fetus is so small at this stage, traditional ultrasounds performed through the abdominal wall, “jelly on the belly,” often cannot produce a clear image. Therefore, a transvaginal probe is most often necessary, especially up to 10 weeks to 12 weeks of pregnancy.

     

    REALLY? When I got my abortion I was only 7 weeks along and I had a traditional on the belly untrasound.

     

    Who gets to decide what’s a clear enough image? The doc at the clinic who only needs a on the belly utlraosund to determine the gestational age and that it is not ectopic or a politican who had no medical experience/expertise what so ever?

     

     


  • jeff4952

    So, i got an angry point-by-point reply… i figured i’d adress a few of them. please see my first post if you want what read what i wrote.

     

     

    So if the government were to require a pat-down before you were allowed to speak in a public square, that would be okay with you? “Guess what, if you don’t want a pat down, you  will not be venting your opinion in that square?”

     

    Well, actually there’s the first amendment that protects your freedom of speech. So what you’re saying makes no sense. 

     

    There is no amendment that guarantees your right to fly on planes(without a pat down), or my right to play high school sports back in the day’ (without being felt up and sodomized by a doctor)

     

    The bottom line is there’s no amendment guaranteeing you absolute comfort at all times.

     

    We’ll keep you in mind when someone decides to pass a law requiring a colonoscopy for a prostate-cancer prescription.

     Well, if that was for some reason a necessary or better way to check out the prostate cancer i had,  i would just deal with it like an adult. You know, sometimes we have to do things that are not pleasurable or comfortable.

     

    No, actually, we’ll continue fighting for womens’ rights, thank you very much. #lookatthispatheticattempttodiscouragewomenfromstandingupforthemselves

     What right is that you’re fighting for?  which one?

    The bottom line is the government tells us what we can and can’t put in and do with our bodies  on a daily basis. 

    Also, its worth mentioning that the government also discriminates based on sex on a regular basis.   I don’t see you crying about segregated bathrooms. (men wouldn’t mind but you sure would)  after all, separate but equal was struck down in the supreme court quite a while ago.

     

     What, you’re not going to tell women to deal with that too? Or did you still have some hope of ever having sex with one?

     

    Actually, I had sex 2 days ago. 

    That was me actually being reasonable in suggesting that at a glance, that section of the might be unreasonable.  The article didn’t discuss it in detial and i haven’t reasearched it.

     


  • mdamedmcew

    Why don’t they pass legislation that forces the MAN to come and see the ultrasound of HIS child too? Because most people on Capital Hill are… you guessed it men! That is also why Viagra has always been covered my insurance and birth control has not.

    I find Virginia’s invasion of a woman’s right to choose an end run around Roe V. Wade and an invasion of a woman’s person! How about forcing the man involved in the pregnancy to come in and have the same ultrasound, but of his colon? Fair is fair, right? No state has the right to invade a person’s body with out a court order. VA needs to stay out of the rights of women unless they are ready to force the men to go through the same humiliation! 

  • jennifer-starr

    You seem to forget, Jeff– that there’s no medically necessary reason to mandate this type of ultrasound.  The people pushing this don’t wish to ‘save baybees’–they just want to hurt and humiliate women. 

  • prochoiceferret

    Well, actually there’s the first amendment that protects your freedom of speech. So what you’re saying makes no sense. 

    There is no amendment that guarantees your right to fly on planes(without a pat down), or my right to play high school sports back in the day’ (without being felt up and sodomized by a doctor)

    The bottom line is there’s no amendment guaranteeing you absolute comfort at all times.

    Good thing we’re talking about unwilling genital penetration (i.e. rape) and not “absolute comfort.”

    Well, if that was for some reason a necessary or better way to check out the prostate cancer i had,  i would just deal with it like an adult. You know, sometimes we have to do things that are not pleasurable or comfortable.

    Who said there needed to be a necessary/better reason for that to check out prostate cancer? It’s not like the original law being discussed here was motivated by medical necessity, either.

    What right is that you’re fighting for?  which one?

    The right not to have our bodies used for the benefit of anyone else without our consent.

    The bottom line is the government tells us what we can and can’t put in and do with our bodies  on a daily basis.

    Is that why the government can require you to take a vaccine? Or donate a spare organ without your consent? Oh, wait a second—it can’t.

    Also, its worth mentioning that the government also discriminates based on sex on a regular basis.   I don’t see you crying about segregated bathrooms. (men wouldn’t mind but you sure would)  after all, separate but equal was struck down in the supreme court quite a while ago.

    Try reading the Brown v. Board of Education decision some day, and recognizing that not all forms of treating one group versus another differently constitute a harm to either group.

    Actually, I had sex 2 days ago.

    Try seeing how often you get it if you talk politics on a date.

    That was me actually being reasonable in suggesting that at a glance, that section of the might be unreasonable.  The article didn’t discuss it in detial and i haven’t reasearched it.

    Too bad you’re not willing to be reasonable with women who know a little bit more than you what sexual assault is like.
  • jeff4952

    I agree but, i think you’re missing the issue.   The driving force behind all this is not a group of crusty old guys trying to keep women barefoot and pregnant.  It’s weather or not you think its ok to kill an unborn child. The reason you haven’t seen any law like this is because its a moot point anyways, the man’s opinion does not matter.

     

    I still  think that would be a *Great* idea but, only if they allow the man say in what she does with it. As of right now what the guy wants has no bearing on the situation. Which i pretty unfair considering it takes two to make a baby.

     

    If the father wants to keep the kid why not have her have the baby with the stipulation that the father takes full custody after birth?

     

    I’ll go ahead and respond to the obvious complains aginst this.

    Look, god didn’t send down a bolt of lightning and put a baby in you.   You can choose to have the kid regardless of what the guy wants and he’s required by law to pay child support. Why shouldn’t the same be true in reverse when it comes to a kid, afterall… its half his too.

     

  • prochoiceferret

    I agree but, i think you’re missing the issue.   The driving force behind all this is not a group of crusty old guys trying to keep women barefoot and pregnant.  It’s weather or not you think its ok to kill an unborn child.

     

    Whatever you think about the weather doesn’t matter. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. It is a woman’s right to “kill an unborn child,” or as sane people call it, “have an abortion.”

     

    The reason you haven’t seen any law like this is because its a moot point anyways, the man’s opinion does not matter.

     

    Oh, if only that were true across the board.

     

    I still  think that would be a *Great* idea but, only if they allow the man say in what she does with it.

     

    I think that would be a *Great* idea without the man having any say. After all, it’s not like we’re according that privilege to women, either!

     

    If the father wants to keep the kid why not have her have the baby with the stipulation that the father takes full custody after birth?

     

    Yeah, it’s not like having a baby is a big deal for her or anything!

     

    Look, god didn’t send down a bolt of lightning and put a baby in you.   You can choose to have the kid regardless of what the guy wants and he’s required by law to pay child support. Why shouldn’t the same be true in reverse when it comes to a kid, afterall… its half his too.

     

    Child support has to be paid because there is a child that needs support, not because a woman has the privilege of making a guy pay. Women can choose not to carry through a pregnancy because their bodies are kind of necessary for that and they can decide not to allow same to be used for that purpose. If you don’t like that little fact, talk to “god”—I think he may have had something to do with making things work that way in the first place.

  • jennifer-starr

    I still  think that would be a *Great* idea but, only if they allow the man say in what she does with it. As of right now what the guy wants has no bearing on the situation. Which i pretty unfair considering it takes two to make a baby.

    So if a guy says that he doesn’t want to be a father, doesn’t want to be tied down and decides he wants to make her have an abortion,  I’m presuming you’re all right with that?

  • jeff4952

    jennifer,

    If she wants it, she keeps it with the stipulation she keeps primary custody of the child…  and he still has his  financial responsibilities as he would with the way it is now.    

     

    sound fair?

     

    now for the other chick

     

     

    I think that would be a *Great* idea without the man having any say. After all, it’s not like we’re according that privilege to women, either!

     

    Com’on man… (or wo-man)   you’re killing me.    Why  shouldn’t the man have an opinion in the matter?   you can’t *possibly* say women have no choice in the matter.  You’re just being dramatic and grandstanding.

     

     

    Yeah, it’s not like having a baby is a big deal for her or anything!

    What, and its not a big deal for him either? 9 months  like my comment before… It’s not like they didn’t know getting  a baby was the possible outcome of having sex.  There are some consequences for sex…  much like uncomfortable pat downs at the airport and physical exams and ultrasounds from inside your junk…. you’ve got to deal with them.

     

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    If she wants it, she keeps it with the stipulation she keeps primary custody of the child…  and he still has his  financial responsibilities as he would with the way it is now.    

     sound fair?

     

    For the child, sure. Not that any of this has squat to do with a woman’s right to have an abortion, of course.

     

    Com’on man… (or wo-man)   you’re killing me.    Why  shouldn’t the man have an opinion in the matter?   you can’t *possibly* say women have no choice in the matter.  You’re just being dramatic and grandstanding.

     

    The man is free to have his opinion on whatever he wants. And as for women not having a choice in the matter, well, what about the women who want an abortion without being unnecessarily penetrated by a foreign object?

     

    What, and its not a big deal for him either?

     

    Oh, yes, sulking for nine months worrying about the child-support order sure is strenuous. Just like pregnancy, it can affect your health, leave you maimed for life, and even kill you!

     

    like my comment before… It’s not like they didn’t know getting  a baby was the possible outcome of having sex.  There are some consequences for sex…  much like uncomfortable pat downs at the airport and physical exams and ultrasounds from inside your junk…. you’ve got to deal with them.

     

    That’s a reason for women to have abortions, not for legislators to force medically-unnecessary rape on them.

  • wendy-banks

    I hate even having a speculum put it me. I have to force myself not to clamp my knees together and tell the MD to stop touching me. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be raped and have to undergo something like this…

  • jeff4952

    For the child, sure. Not that any of this has squat to do with a woman’s right to have an abortion, of course.

     

    well  you admitted its a child… a person if you will. someone you might want to consider in the equation.

    so, there’s that.

     

    The man is free to have his opinion on whatever he wants. And as for women not having a choice in the matter, well, what about the women who want an abortion without being unnecessarily penetrated by a foreign object?

     

    Grow up.  its not the end of the world if someone does an ultrasound through your vag.

    Yeah, and id rather not have had  my package felt up by the company doc, ( a 50 something year old burly man) … eventhough i’m sure there  are less invasive ways to handle that but, thats the way it is.    It’s not like there’s zero basis for this.  It’s not always necessary to get a good view of the baby but, it will always give you a better image.   It is the better procedure. 

    is it less comfortable? sure.  but there are a lot of things that are not comfortable. just deal. you’re picking the wrong battle here.

     

     

    Oh, yes, sulking for nine months worrying about the child-support order sure is strenuous. Just like pregnancy, it can affect your health, leave you maimed for life, and even kill you!

     

    then there’s the whole 18+ years after that. espically when you factor in you were commenting on a hypothetical situaion where the guy would have primary custody after the woman gives birth.

     

    also, then you should stop having sex if you’re that terrified. Just get your self a toy if thats how you feel.

    you make it sound like having an abortion has no risk and having a baby will ruin your health for life.

     

     

  • wendy-banks

    If the father wants to keep the kid why not have her have the baby with the stipulation that the father takes full custody after birth?

    Yeah, as soon as they figure out how the man can carry a kid for nine months, going through morning sickness, fainting, mood swings, labor etc., etc. (sometimes coming close to dieing as I did with my daughter. I was so dehydrated one hospital stay it took them 45 minutes to FIND a vein and another 20 to get a IV in. And my kidneys were shuting down- Not fun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperemesis_gravidarum), he can decide– Untill then, screw off.

  • jennifer-starr

    You still haven’t addressed the fact that  this procedure is medically unnecessary–I’m guessing  because either you don’t really understand that fact or you simply don’t care?  In fact, from the tone of your posts, you seem to think that it should be used as some kind of punishment or consequence for wanting to end a pregnancy, which is disturbing to say the least.   You also seem to be very cavalier about the health risks of pregnancy, but I guess since you’ll never actually experience those risks, it really doesn’t matter to you, does it? 

  • prochoiceferret

    well  you admitted its a child… a person if you will. someone you might want to consider in the equation.

    so, there’s that.

     

    Yes, if a child is born, then it has to be considered. Thank you,  Captain Obvious!

     

    Grow up.  its not the end of the world if someone does an ultrasound through your vag.

     

    It’s not the end of the world if someone sodomizes you with a broomstick, either, but no one’s going to make an argument that that should be allowed because of it, yes?

     

    Yeah, and id rather not have had  my package felt up by the company doc, ( a 50 something year old burly man) … eventhough i’m sure there  are less invasive ways to handle that but, thats the way it is.    It’s not like there’s zero basis for this.  It’s not always necessary to get a good view of the baby but, it will always give you a better image.   It is the better procedure. 

     

    Then obviously, no law is necessary. Women would just voluntarily choose to do it on their own. Hmmm, maybe it’s not so “better” as you seem to think it is…

     

    is it less comfortable? sure.  but there are a lot of things that are not comfortable. just deal. you’re picking the wrong battle here.

     

    That’s easy for someone who is never going to be affected by law to say, don’t you think?

     

    then there’s the whole 18+ years after that. espically when you factor in you were commenting on a hypothetical situaion where the guy would have primary custody after the woman gives birth.

     

    Perhaps you should have just kept your legs closed, then.

     

    also, then you should stop having sex if you’re that terrified. Just get your self a toy if thats how you feel.

     

    No thanks. Sex with a living, breathing partner whom I trust is more than good enough for me. Although toys are fun too!

     

    you make it sound like having an abortion has no risk and having a baby will ruin your health for life.

     

    Abortion is a hell of a lot safer than childbirth, as a matter of fact. Maybe you should support putting obstacles in the way of women who want to carry to term. Or leave them alone, and just get yourself snipped.

  • person-0

    Grow up.  its not the end of the world if someone does an ultrasound through your vag.

    Your dismissive tone is revolting. It most certainly is traumatic and life changing to be penetrated without consent and it’s made worse that the state is inflicting the rape to attempt to coerce the woman. All rape is about power and this kind is no different. The government has no business dictating medically unnecessary procedures and you know it. How sad that you don’t even try to hide your misogyny.

  • jeff4952

    jennifer,

     

    accurately Determining the age of the fetus is pretty important.  It’s safe to say that has quite a bit of significance. Wouldn’t you say? 


    Also, that drum you beat about future health risks is a poor excuse and you know it.

    I know plenty of girls who have the abortion question come up and *none* have ever considered future possible comlpications which they don’t yet have as a reason to do it.

    “well i could get severe morning sickness and get dehydrated”   (like in wendy’s case) or X , Y ,Z complication.

     

    It’s silly to even bring that up.  Thats not factor in anyone’s decision unless they’re a hypochondriac….

     

    now… if its a current  complication and your life is at risk, the abortion is medically necessary, and  no one’s arguing against that… save for the antithesis of prochoiceferret but, they’re so far out there it’s not even worth mentioning.



    Wendy,

    Yeah, and about that exam… it sucks dosen’t it?  and its uncomfortable.  i feel ya. 

    but every year you woman-up and get it done again…. and in the grand scheme of things its not a big deal. just like this ultrasound.

  • colleen

    How sad that you don’t even try to hide your misogyny.

    He’s a Christian Republican scolding the lower life forms. They listen to Rush Limbaugh, fly their freak flags high and enjoy denigrating women. Which is why Jeff posts here. It affords him the illusion of masculinity.

  • colleen

    accurately Determining the age of the fetus is pretty important.  It’s safe to say that has quite a bit of significance. Wouldn’t you say? 

    Not when the fetus/embryo is so small that  it can’t been seen without the magic of state sanctioned rape. Once again, this isn’t a medically necessary procedure. Like everything else the ‘pro-life’ movement does it’s an opportunity to humiliate and degrade women.

  • basiorana

    Look, you really don’t understand, because as a man you probably CAN’T understand. Steven Pinker, in his excellent book Blank Slate, argues that the reason that rape is so heinous to women, so traumatic, compared to other forms of violation or abuse is that natural selection encouraged it– women control their offspring’s success through picking a good sexual partner and then caring for the child. If women are denied the ability to pick a sexual partner, they lose evolutionarily as their child a) may not have the best genes, and b) won’t have another parent to assist in raising them. So women who reacted violently and negatively to rape, thus defending themselves against it and rejecting the offspring rather than investing in them, would go on to have more healthy children than a woman who went along with the rape and then got roped into raising a kid on her own.

    Over many many generations this turned into a horrific, visceral reaction that women feel towards vaginal violation, as ingrained into our minds as the need to gulp for air when holding your breath. So in any situation where we are asked to exchange that violation for something, we want to be damn sure it’s for OUR benefit, for the sake of OUR health, because if we don’t want it and we don’t consent, we’re being asked to go against our most ancient primal protective fears… for what? So that we can view a blurry image and feel a little more guilty about having consensual sex?

    Biological males don’t have this protective fear, because the risk of rape for a man was smaller than the risk of rape for a woman in a pre-abortion, pre-conception world. So please, don’t go around telling women what is and isn’t rape. You cannot understand rape. Your brain will never wrap itself around how horrific rape is and will never define it properly because what is rape and what isn’t comes down to whether it triggers that part of our brain that is designed to make us fight back with every ounce of our strength, to defend our reproductive autonomy.

    Obviously there are legal definitions that are more precise, and “she thinks it was rape so it’s rape” probably isn’t solid enough to build a criminal law foundation on, but perhaps we should agree that the government should never mandate that women accept (what they define as) rape as a condition to receive legal medical care. If a DOCTOR decided that he would not do an abortion without a transvaginal ultrasound, that’s one thing– and the woman could decide to go elsewhere or not get an abortion. And if it was necessary to get one, the woman could decide for herself if the risks outweighed the benefits and could consent. But as it is not needed and all doctors will be held to it even if they disagree with the need, the law is overstepping and requiring that women subsume that primal, visceral fear of rape for no medical reason.

  • basiorana

    Millions of women do not get pap smears or vaginal exams except when they are in poor health. Because they choose not to, because they are in good health and consider the violation not worth it. It IS a big deal if you don’t want it. And it’s a bigger deal to rape victims. It’s even kinda a big deal to a lot of women who do want it and consent– painful, for one. But after all, possible cancer is worse. And if this law is passed, women will probably say okay, forcing a child into this world is worse, and they’ll endure it. But the point is that they DO NOT HAVE TO, there is no medical reason for it and the law should NOT impose it. Because ultimately it does feel like rape. And it kinda feels like rape every year when I have to get a vaginal exam to have birth control, but like millions of women before me, I consent to the act even though I don’t want it and I feel violated because I need what I’m getting in exchange. Of course, I don’t think the DOCTOR is a rapist; they aren’t holding me down. But it’s a bit like being forced into prostitution by dire economic status, you know? It’s still going to feel like rape as you lie there and take it, but you still accept it because the alternative is worse (a slow death of starvation or exposure from homelessness in my example, or bearing and birthing yet another child to this world to either have to care for with no help but a check once a month if you’re lucky, or to abandon to a terrible foster-care system that will neglect and abuse them for years before they grow up into yet another criminal in the BC/abortion scenario).

    The difference, though, is that the speculum is for my health. The TVU is to shame a woman for no medical reason.

  • darkscout

    I’m a women, and there are lots of things we go through for health that’s uncomfortable. For one, to get approved for birthcontrol we usually have to go through being poked, prodded and even swabbed once a year at least for health reasons. Being only a week (or less) away from giving birth to my first child they have to check me with fingers for dialation, feeling baby’s position and how far the head is, and other things for my health and the baby’s. I feel- and maybe I’m missing something here- that an ultrasound- whether the vaginal or otherwise- could be a medical nessecity as I would feel they HAVE to check the gestation of the fetus (a smaller woman you could probably tell but a larger woman you would have few outward signs of how long the fetus is along) and making sure the fetus hasn’t delevoped in the tubes which would make a standard abortion impossible. I’m sure alot of why they so this is because of the woman’s heath and risks as with anything else we go in for in our lives, and this is just one of those other take it or leave it situations. I’m not saying it’s comfortable, I’m not saying it’s not humiliating- but what I am saying is if it meant my health if this was the choice I went through then I’d want to make sure I’d come out with as little problems as possible even if that meant they had to check me in this way.

  • crowepps

    If it was medically necessary, doctors would be doing it, right?  I mean, when something is medically necessary then it is part of the standard of care and it’s totally unnecessary to pass a law requiring it, right?  The point you seem to be missing is that since doctors are already doing any ultrasounds that are actually medically necessary, the only ones that could possibly be mandated by this law are those which wouldn’t otherwise have been done because they are not medically necessary.

  • jen7677

    So ok I have had a vaginal ultrasound and yes of course I have had pap smears and yes they suck and are uncomfortable and weird but Let me try and understand all this and wrap my head around it. so this bill says that in order for a woman to kill an unborn child because that is what it is people, lets call a spade a spade here ladies please, she will have to have a vaginal ultrasound.  I am assuming here so correct me if I am wrong but it is only being done for dramatic effect, to try and deter the woman from killing the unborn child, the child that as the first woman put it so elegantly has to be dealt with after pregnancy and o ya lets not forget the woman was traumatized by the unwanted and unplanned pregnancy which I certainly hope is referring to a woman who was raped because to say a woman was traumatized by an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy they consented to is ridiculous at best because that woman willfully had sex with another consenting adult male and because the 2 of them weren’t thinking they failed to use protection, there is nothing traumatizing about that.  

    I have to say I agree with that many women are having these abortions as a matter of lifestyle convenience and that in my opinion is WRONG!!!! A person should not or ever have the right to just go sleep with someone without using protection and then say oops we got pregnant so we will just kill it! Are you kidding me, has noone here even heard the word adoption????? In matters of rape, real true rape, I think there should be an exception, but because a woman wants to be a selfish little brat, nope! Grow up, life is not a party is what I have to say to that! 

    I also am confused as to how this is being called rape, I get the penetration aspect of it all, but the word forced here to me sounds more or less like they are saying if a woman does not, and pay attn to this next word, its a doozy, AGREE to have a vaginal ultraound they won’t get the abortion so ok did you catch that word there, AGREE, that means consent, consent means its not rape people! It means the woman said nope I will not agree to let you give me a vaginal ultrasound so I can have an abortion. I cannot see doctors holding patients against their will or restraining them to perform the vaginal ultrasound, I think when the woman says no, only one thing will happen, the woman and the doctor will part ways and the woman will seek other avenues or states shall we say to get the abortion. And lets be honest here Other avenues may cost less than traveling far and wide for that abortion, other avenues may mean forms that do not involve a doctor or if they do it won’t necessarily be a clean and sterile environment and that is not good for anyone involved! Yes woman should have rights, i.e. the right to say no, which in this instance is possible from my point of view. I dunno I just really do not get this and am not with the 99% of the posters here in saying this is rape. Force means against your will and if you have the choice of saying yes and no then there is no force, plain and simple.

    And ya know what else, where do you get off saying I do not care about the unborn baby and all I want to do is hurt a woman??!! Seriously???!! My sister whom I love dearly recently had an abortion, I was never even told about the pregnancy, neither was she at first honestly because her lame doctor who gave her the Depo shots decided to not do her a solid and check for pregnancy when getting the shots so she got 2 shots before finding out she was pregnant and becuase of the risk of having a complicated pregnancy or a baby with major health issues she decided to abort, she did it in Texas btw, not in Oklahoma where she lives, anyways I found out about the whole after the fact and I did not say anything to her about it but ya know what I did do???!!!! I CRIED AND WEEPED FOR A GOOD COUPLE HOURS AND EVEN FOR A COUPLE DAYS AFTERWARD I WAS SADDENED BY IT, SADDENED FOR THE LIFE THAT WAS LOST, SHE WAS 20 WEEKS BTW, THAT BABY WAS A LIVING BREATHING HEART BEATING LIFE WITH EYES, EARS, LEGS AND ARMS I AM SURE AND BEAUTIFUL I BET JUST LIKE ALL HER 5 BOYS ARE, BUT IT WAS A LIFE I WOULD NEVER GET TO MEET, THAT TRULY SADDENED ME AND I WAS ALSO SADDENED FOR MY SISTER AND HER LOSS AND THE VERY HARD DECISION SHE MADE THAT I KNOW I COULD NEVER DO, I WOULD OF WAITED IT OUT TO SEE HOW THINGS WENT BUT THATS ME, BUT PART OF ME ALSO WAS UPSET CAUSE NOT ONLY DID MY SISTER HAVE THE ABORTION BECAUSE OF HEALTH ISSUES BUT IT WAS BECAUSE SHE ALREADY 5 KIDS!!! YES 6 KIDS WOULD BE INSANE BUT I GUESS IN HER SITUATION ITS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A SHIT DOCTOR WHO DOES NOT DO THEIR JOB RIGHT IN MY OPINION AND DO PREGNANCY TESTS OR HOW ABOUT INFORM YOUR PATIENT OF OTHER MEDS YOUR TAKING THAT WILL MAKE THE BC NIL AND VOID CAUSE THAT IS WHAT CAUSED THIS, NOT THAT THE DEPO DID NOT WORK, BUT THE DOC NOT INFORMING THE PATIENT AND BECAUSE OF THAT MY SISTER WAS FOREVER CHANGED, HAVING THE ABORTION CHANGED HER FOR LIFE, SHE IS NOT BY FAR THE PERSON SHE WAS BEFORE IT, SHE HAS BECOME DEPRESSED AND HAS SELF IMAGE ISSUES NOW, THATS WHAT ABORTION CAN DO TO A PERSON PEOPLE!!! SO DO NOT GO AROUND THINKING YOU HAVE ANY RIGHT TO SPEAK FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM FROM NOTHING!

  • jennifer-starr

    Let me try and understand all this and wrap my head around it. so this bill says that in order for a woman to kill an unborn child because that is what it is people, lets call a spade a spade here ladies please, she will have to have a vaginal ultrasound.  I am assuming here so correct me if I am wrong but it is only being done for dramatic effect, to try and deter the woman from killing the unborn child

    So you’re admitting that there is no actual reason for this ultrasound, and that it’s only being done for ‘dramatic effect’. And a woman should have to tolerate this medically unnecessary and invasive procedure  in order to access a LEGAL abortion because –why?? Because certain people can’t seem to mind their own business? Because it makes you more comfortable? 

     

    I have to say I agree with that many women are having these abortions as a matter of lifestyle convenience and that in my opinion is WRONG!!!! A person should not or ever have the right to just go sleep with someone without using protection and then say oops we got pregnant so we will just kill it! Are you kidding me, has noone here even heard the word adoption?????

     

    You’re certainly entitled to your opinion–and the woman making this choice is entitled to hers. And seeing as she’s the one who’s actually pregnant, I think the decision should be hers. As for adoption, that’s the solution to unwanted parenthood–it won’t do a thing for someone  who no longer wishes to be pregnant.  A woman is not entitled to go through nine months of pregnancy in order to provide someone else with a baby.  We are not breeding livestock. 

    I also am confused as to how this is being called rape, I get the penetration aspect of it all, but the word forced here to me sounds more or less like they are saying if a woman does not, and pay attn to this next word, its a doozy, AGREE to have a vaginal ultraound they won’t get the abortion so ok did you catch that word there, AGREE, that means consent, consent means its not rape people! It means the woman said nope I will not agree to let you give me a vaginal ultrasound so I can have an abortion. I cannot see doctors holding patients against their will or restraining them to perform the vaginal ultrasound, I think when the woman says no, only one thing will happen, the woman and the doctor will part ways and the woman will seek other avenues or states shall we say to get the abortion. And lets be honest here Other avenues may cost less than traveling far and wide for that abortion, other avenues may mean forms that do not involve a doctor or if they do it won’t necessarily be a clean and sterile environment and that is not good for anyone involved! 

     

    The only way this would be true consent is if the doctor simply ‘offered’ an ultrasound and it wasn’t mandatory. You’ve failed to state any reason why a woman should have to jump through all these hoops and submit to something that’s being done for ‘dramatic effect’. And since there’s no medically necessary reason, why should she be forced to consent to this in order to access a perfectly legal procedure?  You may wish it wasn’t legal, but it is. It’s profoundly immoral to force women to have to  travel far and seek out unsafe avenues because they don’t want this ‘dramatic effect’. 

    And ya know what else, where do you get off saying I do not care about the unborn baby and all I want to do is hurt a woman??!!

     

    No, you care about the ‘unborn baby’, all right.  But in true right-winger fashion, after the baby is born both mother and baby will be left to fend for themselves. You guys will be busy cutting WIC,  Medicaid, Head Start, food stamps and anything else that could possibly help out single moms. Some concern, huh? And yes, I think you have demonstrated a desire to hurt and punish women whom you see as ‘bad girls’ and ‘selfish brats’.  Which is what the anti-choice movement boils down to in the end.

     I CRIED AND WEEPED FOR A GOOD COUPLE HOURS AND EVEN FOR A COUPLE DAYS AFTERWARD I WAS SADDENED BY IT, SADDENED FOR THE LIFE THAT WAS LOST, SHE WAS 20 WEEKS BTW, THAT BABY WAS A LIVING BREATHING HEART BEATING LIFE WITH EYES, EARS, LEGS AND ARMS I AM SURE AND BEAUTIFUL I BET JUST LIKE ALL HER 5 BOYS ARE, BUT IT WAS A LIFE I WOULD NEVER GET TO MEET, THAT TRULY SADDENED ME AND I WAS ALSO SADDENED FOR MY SISTER AND HER LOSS AND THE VERY HARD DECISION SHE MADE THAT I KNOW I COULD NEVER DO, I WOULD OF WAITED IT OUT TO SEE HOW THINGS WENT BUT THATS ME, BUT PART OF ME ALSO WAS UPSET CAUSE NOT ONLY DID MY SISTER HAVE THE ABORTION BECAUSE OF HEALTH ISSUES BUT IT WAS BECAUSE SHE ALREADY 5 KIDS!!! YES 6 KIDS WOULD BE INSANE BUT I GUESS IN HER SITUATION ITS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A SHIT DOCTOR WHO DOES NOT DO THEIR JOB RIGHT IN MY OPINION AND DO PREGNANCY TESTS OR HOW ABOUT INFORM YOUR PATIENT OF OTHER MEDS YOUR TAKING THAT WILL MAKE THE BC NIL AND VOID CAUSE THAT IS WHAT CAUSED THIS, NOT THAT THE DEPO DID NOT WORK, BUT THE DOC NOT INFORMING THE PATIENT AND BECAUSE OF THAT MY SISTER WAS FOREVER CHANGED, HAVING THE ABORTION CHANGED HER FOR LIFE, SHE IS NOT BY FAR THE PERSON SHE WAS BEFORE IT, SHE HAS BECOME DEPRESSED AND HAS SELF IMAGE ISSUES NOW, THATS WHAT ABORTION CAN DO TO A PERSON PEOPLE!!! SO DO NOT GO AROUND THINKING YOU HAVE ANY RIGHT TO SPEAK FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW THEM FROM NOTHING!

     

    Run-on sentences make baby Jesus cry. Just saying. I’m truly sorry what happened to your sister. She and her husband had to make what is a very difficult and personal decision. But i’m even more sorry that she has a sister who has chosen to judge her by ‘what she would’ve done’ instead of being supportive.  It doesn’t matter  what you would’ve done. You are not the one who had to make that choice. Have you ever stopped to  wonder if your attitude contributed to her depression? 

     

    As for the general public, guess what? I am part of the general public. So is every woman on this site. We have a right to speak, and we’ll continue to do so. 

  • person-0

    There is so much you either don’t understand or don’t want to understand. To claim that an unplanned and unwanted pregancy is not traumatic is naive and uninformed. In fact, it is one of the most traumatic experiences in a woman’s life. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy regardless of your incredibly judgmental pronouncement. Women have a legal right to abortion without attempts by the state at coercion to choose otherwise. It is not for “dramatic effect” (nice try to minimize the truth). It is COERCION. Learn the difference.

    Your opinion of abortions, the reasons why women choose it and what constitutes justification are irrelevant. Your thoughts have no bearing on millions of women who are making their own decisions for their own lives. Your opinion only applies to you.

    You clearly don’t understand how consent works which is not entirely surprising. A woman cannot AGREE to being penetrated with the wand if her access to her LEGAL, MEDICAL procedure is contingent upon her agreement. There is no medical necessity and she is being FORCED to agree in order to acquire the service she desires. The state is also FORCING doctors to administer an invasive, unnecessary procedure on an unwilling patient and you don’t see anything wrong with that. Read the VA definition of rape and tell us how the doctor is not guilty. We can only hope that some doctors will invoke the ‘conscience clauses’ and refuse to comply.

    Perhaps instead of screaming about poor you who is so upset about your sister’s abortion that had nothing to do with you, you could help her address her depression and take care of her.You know, maybe find some compassion? Maybe her issues have more to do with being overwhelmed with children and life and having a self centered sister who deems herself the ultimate approver of what other people should do.

  • stickerbrick

    What a powerfully ignorant combination of words; “matters of lifestyle convenience”.  So offensive on so many levels.  As if having a child is considered an “inconvenience” by anybody.  What kind of research did Rep. Todd Gilbert do to come to up with the “statistic” that the “vast majority” of abortions are “matters of lifestyle convenience”?   It’s not about “convenience”.  Even if it was, it’s still her body, her choice.

  • julie-watkins

    At the time we found out my IUD had failed we could have finiancially handled it, probably. Both our families probably would have helped, if we’d asked. But we decided we still didn’t want childred yet (which was why I had an IUD). Turns out we never did. I had an abortion, then got my tubes tied (the “reversible” version) because IUD wasn’t effective in my body – I never had it reversed.

    I have nothing to apologize for. I don’t think I would have made a good mother, and I wouldn’t have wanted to be forced into it. 35 years ago people were worried about “too many people”, so I figured, why should I add one more, if I really didn’t want a child at that time? (And I wonder why “population” is such a big deal for pollution — when wars are a much bigger pollutor … or Koch-type paper factories that put poison in water because they’re too cheap (greedy) to care about the environment.)

    If the 1% can get away with controling your preproductive choices, they can get away with everything else and harvets your/your labor any old way they want.

  • datasnake

    State senator Janet Howell had a similar idea, but unfortunately it didn’t get enough votes to pass.

  • freetobe

    I was thinking just this morning the similarity of dairy cow farming and women.

    Having been an animal activist primarily fighting against factory farming of all animals I was just the other day looking over a bunch of photos on FB of how dairy cows are treated.

    First the female calves are taken from their mothers 24 hours after birth and if suitable raised until maturity and the ability to calve. The males if suitable are either stuffed in small crates and milkfed with no excercise no ability to turn around and then slaughtered when very young for veal.

    The female dairy cows life begins first by being artificially inseminated by humans who stick their entire arm in the cows anus to position the uterus while one arm in the anus the other injects semen into the vagina.

    As soon as the cow gives birth within twenty four hours her calve is taken away for the cow to begin producing milk for humans.

    If any of her utters become ingfected with mastitis her and the entire group of cows with her have a needle of antibiotics injected into each utter.

    After one year of milk production the female cow is once again raped by humans to produce another calf for more milk for humans and this process continues for about 5 years until the cow is spent worthless for milk production and some may not even be able to stand from weakness. their utters inflated in size wy beyond normal and painful.

    None of these cows had any RIGHTS or SAY in what was being doen to them!

    The same is being done to women now by the GOP Women are not only be forced to bear children but forced raped if they want to abort.

    In many of the bills that the GOP congress tryed to pass in the Federal Government the laws were written basically saying that a woman is useless if she cannot bear children properly she should just be allowed to die. A “downer woman”= “a downer cow” rmember the fork lift pushing the cow to her fate the slaughterhouse? = death of a woman who is dying from childbirth.

    I came to this conclusion with some help Karen Davis the author of The Holocaust and The Henmaids Tale saw the same exact resemblence in women to farmed animals. Another good book on the subject is Sister species.

    To purchase these mind opening books here is the link http://www.upc-online.org/merchandise/book.html

     

    So if women are not treated with full human rights and equal rights as our male couterparts then we are not considered humans but animals and therefore our fetuses are not human either and have no rights either.

    I propose a shut down for any buisiness of the uterus and vagina by all women in the U.S. until the ERA is ratified and put into law.

     

  • freetobe

    The removal of the calves from the mothers after 24 hours = Women who will be forced to give up their unwanted children for adoption. These women may want to keep their children but probably will not be able to due to the cost of raising a child. Remember women are still not paid fairly and most women live in poverty.

    The pro-life movement has also been know to be wildly wanton of white babies to adopt. I hear it all the time.= The calves that are for milk production remain for 5 years ,veal or beef are removed and or sold for consumption and profit fo the factory farm owners and their customers.

    Animals that produce for profit=women that produce for children for war and workers and to feed the barren couples to help care for them when they are old.

    Now you decide.

  • kimberly-dawes

    You cannot be serious with this article?  Or can you be?  Seriously?  An ultrasound being compared to sexual activity and then calling it rape of all things?  Boy, what a stretch.  Worse yet, what an insult to women who have actually endured being raped.  I have had several transvaginal ultra-sounds by OB GYN’s early in my pregnancies.  Your article therefore suggests  that I have been raped five times by my OB GYN??  Or is it NOT rape because I wanted those pregnancies?  But wait, two of those pregnancies were unplanned.  Well, unplanned, but I wasn’t going to abort them.  So, that wouldn’t count as rape either then?  Or would it be rape since I was “penetrated” during an unplanned pregancy??  Let’s get this straight.  No, I did not walk in the doctor’s office asking for a trans-vaginal ultrasound please.  I didn’t even expect to get one otherwise I would have shaved my legs!  However, it is a necessary part of a woman’s pre-natal care.   And, aren’t all pregnant woman pre-natal until they deliver, miscarry or abort their baby???  I assure you NONE of my ultrasounds came anywhere near your ridiculous description of being violated, let alone rape.  But, I supposed the real issue isn’t rape now is it?  It has to do with whether it is a wanted or unwanted child.  I’m sure any woman would ask – no expect - the most up to date pre-natal care for a wanted child – an unwanted child – not so much.

     There are other forms of ultrasound, such as the transducer that is performed on the abdomen.  Are you against that type of “forced” ultrasound too???  I am willing to bet that you are.  Why?  Because this isn’t about anything but YOUR personal belief on abortion.  It has NOTHING to do with a woman being raped. 

    The real argument here for those who can see through this smoke screen is WHY WOULDN’T you want a woman to see what is really happening inside her body even if it is an unwanted pregnancy at the time?  Are you suggesting that women are so fragile that they cannot handle the truth if it is shown to them?  It is ridiculous to suggest that a woman knows what she wants, but her decision is so fragile that you cannot show her something to the contrary or it may confuse, upset or traumatize her?  Are you kidding me??  What in the heck do you think women are made of?  This is the most back ward, condescending notion ever.  Are you suggesting that all women think and feel the same and wouldn’t look at this as an opportunity to have MORE information where a truly life impacting decision is concerned?????  It seems to me that screaming rape is a good way to cloud the issues with nonsense so women stay ignorant about the truth – because at 20 days or less the trans-vaginal ultra sound can show a pregnant woman the beating heart of her own child.  Or if she is even further along, the very distinctive outline of a human being.  Let us not show her that!  She might be traumatized right into thinking that she wants to keep and love and protect that child and have a last minute change of heart? 

    Growing up, I said I never wanted kids.  However, in 1983, I got pregnant right out of high school.  I was scared to death and was set on getting an abortion.  It was only AFTER my best friend (who was only 16 at the time) showed me an abortion pamphlet that I decided without question that I could NOT do that to my baby.  Days before she handed me that pamphlet, she unsuccessfully tried to talk me out of it.  No amount of her reasoning would change my mind though.  She made me very angry and I said some hurtful things to her to get her to leave me alone.  I made it clear that she couldn’t possibly understand what I was going through.  What did my friend do?  If she were you, she would have left me alone.  Instead, she did the RIGHT thing, she didn’t leave me alone.  She brought me that abortion literature.  It FORCED me to LOOK at what I was going to do.  I instantly changed my mind and decided to keep my baby. 

     

    Funny thing is, here I am 27 years later, and I am still best friends with that girl who didn’t listen to me.  And, I have NEVER once regretted my decision.  I have NEVER once thought my life might have turned out better had I aborted.  In fact, I have thought hundreds of times how she changed me for the better…

    And don’t try to dismiss this all as opinion, otherwise, you have to dismiss the entire article I’m writing about because the whole basis of the argument to begin with is someone’s opinion on a law.

     

    What do YOU personally have to lose if a woman is shown a picture of the baby she is carrying?   What does SHE stand to gain from it?

  • jennifer-starr

    If a woman chooses to have an ultrasound, that’s fine. And if she chooses not to, that should be fine too.  And if a doctor thinks it’s medically necessary, then he will perform that ultrasound. What makes it rape is that it would be mandatory whether there’s a medical necessity or not.A politician would in essence be standing between a woman and her doctor and forcing him to shove an instrument up her vagina–a fact that doesn’t seem to bother supposedly ‘small government’ conservatives *snort*. 

      A woman should not have to submit to a procedure that’s not necessary in order to access a legal abortion. A woman knows what pregnancy is and what ending it means—we don’t need the state or third parties to be in the business of making some kind of emotional plea to get us to change our mind. That’s both insulting and condescending.  

    Would you be okay with a woman simply being asked if she wants an ultrasound or not? I’m guessing not–your side is big on authoritarianism–people must be forced to act the way you think they should. 

  • person-0

    be forced by the state to submit to vaginal penetration to obtain a legal, private medical procedure that she has already chosen? Read the VA definition of rape and tell us which part doesn’t apply.

  • wanda-from-south

    I got it! So as important as prostate cancer awareness is why don’t we pass a law that forces men to have a finger up their asses and a cystoscope down their precious dildo for PREVENTATIVE MEASURES…

     

    Amen, I hope men read this cringe their teeth ( to the ones that deserve it of course)

     

    Let us be in the same boat. 

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