A Young Doctor’s Response to President Obama’s Plan B Failure: Where Is the Scientific Integrity?


Cross-posted in partnership with Amplify Your Voice.

See all our coverage of the Administration’s 2011 Emergency Contraception Reversal here.

Like most of the pro-choice community, I was shocked by Secretary Sebelius of the Department of Health and Human Services overruling the FDA’s decision to make Plan B over-the-counter and available for all ages. This was unexpected, unprecedented, and extremely unfortunate.

Experts, who we count on for guidance and sound evidence-based medicine, have repeatedly shown Plan B to be not only extremely effective, but incredibly safe. Although the experts in the FDA agreed with the well-researched and well-presented data on Plan B, Secretary Sebelius and President Obama chose to ignore their expertise and base their decision on politics, not science.

Not only is this infuriating, but hypocritical. A certain document found on WhiteHouse.gov by The Obama Administration dated March 9, 2009 expresses quite the different sentiment. Interestingly, this release from The White House Press Secretary is entitled “Scientific Integrity” and the first line states “[s]cience and the scientific process must inform and guide decisions of my Administration on a wide range of issues, including improvement of public health…”

I suppose I missed the footnote that implied exceptions for family planning.

As I read the press releases on Secretary Sebelius’ decision and the news about President Obama’s unwavering support of her overruling, I could not help but pick apart their few but telling remarks:

President Obama stated that ten- to 11-year-olds would be able to buy Plan B next to “batteries and bubble gum,” potentially putting these young girls at risk for adverse events if they did not use Plan B correctly. Interestingly, Tylenol is over-the-counter and far more dangerous with far more potential for adverse outcomes. Oh, and pregnancy in a ten- to 11-year-olds also has FAR more adverse outcomes than a small, but effective dose of Plan B.

Speaking of ten- to 11-year-olds, fewer than 1 percent of adolescents in this age group is sexually active. On the other hand, more than half of adolescent girls have had intercourse by their 17th birthday. So yes, by continuing to repeat this age group through the media, it certainly helps to sensationalize barely pubertal girls becoming sexually active, but it is an unreasonable and inappropriate example. Sexually active girls below the age of 17 are still required to have a prescription of Plan B from a physician or medical health professional to take to their local pharmacy, creating an undue burden and precious, wasted time after unprotected sex.

Lastly, how could you do this? When you became our leader, President Obama, we counted on you to stand up for women’s reproductive health, to stop putting unnecessary roadblocks to family planning services in front of all women everywhere, and to be our voice. Instead you have ignored the science behind the drug, you have ignored your vow to scientific integrity and you have ignored your biggest voting base — WOMEN and YOUTH.

As a young physician and an advocate for access to reproductive health, I hold these things to be true:

  1. Women and their partners deserve better.
  2. Our leaders should fight to break down barriers to access to family planning, not reinforce them.
  3. Advocacy and activism are key for change and progress.

Now more than ever, we need to raise our voices to make sure our leaders hear us! Call The White House. Call HHS. Call your Congresspersons. Write an op-ed. Sign the petition.

Make your voices heard.

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  • elizabeth-d

    This pertains to young girls who may be victims of statutory rape, and yet you are anxious for her and the man who offended against her chastity to be able to cover up what happened without having to come into contact with a physician or other adult who might be able to help? Planned Parenthood has gotten into a lot of trouble for not reporting cases of statutory rape that they knew of, rather they were essentially enablers of that. It is good when the crime can be reported. Girls today often are not taught to value their virginity (I was not) but increasingly are sexualized from a tender age, through the media, the other kids, even through their parents’ irresponsible influence. Parents who don’t want their daughter to become a mom while still in middle school should parent well, rather than resorting to abortifacient pills against their untimely grandchild.

  • jennifer-starr

    I think it’s good that crimes against children are reported.  But I think  the idea that the child should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term  because it’s ‘evidence’ against a rapist or as some sort of punishment or judgment because they didn’t ‘value their virginity’ is just plain sick. 

     

  • elizabeth-d

    Something bad happened, but the baby is certainly innocent of any crime and as much in need of loving care as any other. What is needed in the situation, besides justice in regard to a crime that may have been committed, is surely more love, not fear and panic and death. I want to say I think it is exactly right when family and community are there for women and supportive of mothers and babies, most of all when the mother is so young, or if she is poor, if she is ill. We should all be there for our sisters and daughters.

     

    Being taught to value virginity is protective of girls, and helps them to respect themselves and have a firm foundation and reason to say “no” to a man who wants to offend against her. Often the failure is one of parenting, my own experience was probably typical, know my mom taught me about abortion and birth control which actually sent a message as if she was expecting me to become sexually active when not ready to be a mom–but did not teach me it is good to be virgin and to treasure that and not give myself away cheap. Teaching girls to wait till marriage actually teaches them that they are precious, it teaches them their own innate dignity. Boy was I confused when I was younger, so many are today.

  • jennifer-starr

    Sorry, but I’m a just bit more concerned with the child who’s already there, and I don’t think she should be forced to endanger her health and surrender what’s left of her childhood just so someone can have a grandchild or to provide someone else with a baby. Particularly when she’s been the victim of a crime like rape or incest. Pregnancy is hard enough on adult body–forcing a kid to go through that is nothing short of sadistic, in my opinion. 

    A girl or woman is worth so much more than her ‘virginity’ and what she does with it (her mind, her intelligence,her accomplishments, for example) –the notion that a girl is somehow worth more if she keeps it or ‘worth less’ if she doesn’t actually does more to devalue and shame women than lift them up.  We are so much more than a hymen and a uterus, believe me. 

    As for your ‘typical experience’, I imagine it comes more out of your stereotyping of pro-choicers than any actual experience that you’ve had. As a result of my comprehensive sex-ed classes and talks with my pro-choice parents, I made the  personal choice to abstain. Not because of  a desire to remain pure, but because I was presented with facts and chose what I felt was the most sensible path for me. And that’s what girls and young women need. Facts. Not purity balls and purity rings. 

  • prochoiceferret

    Something bad happened, but the baby is certainly innocent of any crime and as much in need of loving care as any other.

     

    Hello? *knock* *knock* Is anyone home?

     

     

    What you so glibly wave away as “something bad happened” is RAPE. What is needed in the situation is for you to STFU and realize that, when it comes to the needs of rape victims, you know about as much as the owner of this van:

     

     

    I’m sorry that your most important personal quality is your virginity. Too bad it’s not your intelligence, and certainly not your compassion.

  • elizabeth-d

    Well, I want to be civil and respectful to you even if you do not feel a need to be so toward me. I was the first to stress that it is rape, in my first comment urging that if a girl seeks help from a physician or other adult this can lead to the rape being reported. But they rated my comment to oblivion.

    The fact a rape was committed, an extremely grave matter, cannot morally justify killing a baby that has been conceived, which Plan B can do. The way the baby was conceived was evil, totally unjust, but abortion cannot undo the injustice and harm, but actually adds to it. This follows from a belief that human life and personhood begins at conception.

    Sexuality is a capacity to make a total gift of oneself to another person, of life-giving love. A part of the point is “you are worth ALL someone else has to give” (in other words, you’re worth more than some guy who acts in accord with the saying, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free). I wasn’t taught to value virginity, as I explained, and know all too well this left me (and other girls) unaware of the love they are worthy of, unaware that I could expect a man’s unreserved gift of himself for life, in return.

  • jennifer-starr

    The fact a rape was committed, an extremely grave matter, cannot morally justify killing a baby that has been conceived, which Plan B can do. The way the baby was conceived was evil, totally unjust, but abortion cannot undo the injustice and harm, but actually adds to it. This follows from a belief that human life and personhood begins at conception.

    Your belief and your opinion, Elizabeth.  But why not leave the decision about what to do with the pregnancy  up to the person who was actually raped? 

  • prochoiceferret

    I was the first to stress that it is rape, in my first comment urging that if a girl seeks help from a physician or other adult this can lead to the rape being reported. But they rated my comment to oblivion.

     

    Yes, because you are arguing in favor of a girl having no choice but to seek help from a physician (which she may not have the resources or access to do) or other adult (which may not be safe for her), or report her rape (which she may not be prepared to do, especially given how so many rape victims are slut-shamed and blamed for what happened to them).

     

    It’s fine if a rape victim freely chooses to do any of those things. But you’re not exactly interested in allowing her a free choice, are you?

     

    The fact a rape was committed, an extremely grave matter, cannot morally justify killing a baby that has been conceived, which Plan B can do.

     

    *knock* *knock* I know you’re in there McFly!

     

     

    Plan B cannot kill babies. I repeat: Plan B cannot kill babies. (Maybe if you dumped a dump truck full of Plan B pills on a baby, that might do the trick. But that’s not how most women or even young girls use Plan B.)

     

    Sexuality is a capacity to make a total gift of oneself to another person, of life-giving love. A part of the point is “you are worth ALL someone else has to give” (in other words, you’re worth more than some guy who acts in accord with the saying, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free). I wasn’t taught to value virginity, as I explained, and know all too well this left me (and other girls) unaware of the love they are worthy of, unaware that I could expect a man’s unreserved gift of himself for life, in return.

     

    Unlike you, people here define themselves by more than the sex they haven’t had. Not that your strange little personal sex-related life philosophy has anything to do with the public-policy issues being discussed here.

  • freetobe

    Plan B does not kill an embryo it prevents implantation. An embryo is nothing without implantation besides that your another troll trying to spew your beleifs here thinking you are going to change someones mind by your forcery I can tell your a fake by the way you are talking. No true follower of Christ does this instead they just pray on their own, belive me I know been around religious goons all my life I know who is sincere and who is not. Sounds like your trippin on Jesus “man”

    or you have been brainwashed by feminists for life and the dumbo Palin.

     

    You see we do not care what you think or others like you. We have our own minds our own desires our own beleifs and we do not go around to anti-choice sites and tell them lies or try and brainwash them instead we say if you do not like abortion don’t have one. Simple really and much more Christian.

  • elizabeth-d

    Dear Biff the bully,

    It is widely accepted that if a child has already been conceived, Plan B is able to cause his/her death by preventing implantation, and it is thought this may even be its main means of preventing birth (it can also prevent ovulation). Thus Plan B not only prevents conception, but aborts an embryo that has been conceived. In the unlikely event that it is found that the action of Plan B is purely to prevent conception, but would not prevent implantation and development of an already fertilized egg, then it might be morally acceptable in the limited circumstances of a rape as a matter of self defense against the rapist. Engaging in contracepted sex is wrong (bad for women, men and children), but protecting oneself against the effects of a rape is self defense, though this would never make it okay to cause abortion if a new life has been conceived. The little one didn’t do anything wrong. Being “unplanned” is not a capital crime. What remains is to love.

    Life has taught me that it is entirely the healthier and happier, all-natural, responsible, loving and sane course of action to be chaste (for married people, that’s conjugal chastity). This is a virtue, the well rounded person tries to grow in all the virtues, which all go together. I do love truth, beauty, goodness! Like most people, I’m a beginner at it.

  • ack

    This pertains to young girls who may be victims of statutory rape, and yet you are anxious for her and the man who offended against her chastity to be able to cover up what happened without having to come into contact with a physician or other adult who might be able to help?

     

    This argument baffles me. You’re saying that a girl becoming pregnant from rape is a good thing because then people will find out. Why isn’t everyone who makes this argument demanding age appropriate, medically accurate sex ed starting in kindgergarten? Discussions about body parts, boundaries, and trusted adults that carry throughout young people’s education would go a lot farther to preventing perpetration AND making it more likely that a victim would know that there’s someone they can tell. Using pregnancy resulting from rape to stop rape is not only ineffective and ridiculous, it’s cruel.

     

     Parents who don’t want their daughter to become a mom while still in middle school should parent well, rather than resorting to abortifacient pills against their untimely grandchild.

     

    Parents definitely need to talk to their kids about sex and contraception. But if their daughter winds up pregnant and says, “I don’t want to be pregnant,” I don’t think they have any right to force her to go through that. Pregnancy isn’t a cakewalk or an inconvenience. It’s a taxing biological process resulting in the single worst pain most people can imagine. Any parent who’s willing to force their 12, 13, or 14 year old through pregnancy and childbirth isn’t parenting well, either. 

  • elizabeth-d

    As you point out, Plan B prevents implantation of the child that has already been conceived, cutting short the life of a tiny living human person who cannot continue to grow and develop if implantation is prevented. I perfectly sincerely believe a person is a person from the moment of conception. I do believe we should protect their life, to which they have a natural right, as a matter of personal morality and love, and also in law, through the rightful means by which citizens participate in law and governance.

    I am not familiar with “feminists for life” and do not know enough about Palin to know what to make of her.

  • ahunt

    Life has taught me that it is entirely the healthier and happier, all-natural, responsible, loving and sane course of action to be chaste…

     

    …just you and the quiet purr of a vibrator. (Werks fer me when the BH is OOT.)

     

    (for married people, that’s conjugal chastity)…

     

    Details…this I gotta read…

     

     

  • ack

    Being taught to value virginity is protective of girls, and helps them to respect themselves and have a firm foundation and reason to say “no” to a man who wants to offend against her

     

    ALL kids (and, quite frankly, a lot of adults) need to be taught to value boundaries. Virginity isn’t the important part, and it certainly has NEVER been shown to be protective of girls. Throughout history, placing high levels of value on virginity led directly to the oppression of women and girls. It defines her in terms of her sexual experiences and leads to the same type of commodification of sexuality that you’re decrying here. It’s a really tough issue; too far in either direction and we’re in a terrible place.

     

    The important part of talking about healthy relationships is teaching people to figure out where their boundaries are, and how to communicate them. The important part of preventing perpetration is teaching people empathy, how to respect the boundaries of others, and to reduce the sense of entitlement that leads to ignoring those boundaries.

     

    I’m also not sure where you’re going with the word “offend.” Consensual sex isn’t an “offense” against anything, and adolescents engage in consensual sexual activity. This isn’t just about statutory rape.

    my own experience was probably typical, know my mom taught me about abortion and birth control which actually sent a message as if she was expecting me to become sexually active when not ready to be a mom–but did not teach me it is good to be virgin and to treasure that and not give myself away cheap.

     

    My mother listed how many kids the women in my family have had and said, “You better assume you’re pretty damn fertile and not have sex until you’re ready to have a kid.” She worked on the messages about saving myself, etc… and I ignored her. I had protected sex when I felt ready, and I’ve been engaging in it for the last 14 years. I wish she had talked to me about birth control so I would have felt comfortable telling her that I wanted to go on it.

     

    And a genuine question: Why is it “good to be a virgin?”

     

     Teaching girls to wait till marriage actually teaches them that they are precious, it teaches them their own innate dignity.

     

    Huh. My parents and the other trusted adults in my life taught me that I’m precious and have innate dignity just because I am who I am. They supported me in exploring my talents and interests, challenged me, and reinforced achievements without making my failures feel like the end of the world. Probably should I have told them all I had sex as a teenager so they would have given up on all that.

  • elizabeth-d

    I believe a person cannot be a means to an end, therefore it is not moral for the unborn very early term child (a person) to be killed for the sake of the mother’s interests. There is never a moral right to choose abortion, even where that legal right exists. But often today when a young girl or young woman becomes untimely pregnant, and especially if it was by an evil act against her, she’s put under great pressure to sacrifice her child, her first child, and often is told it’s just a bunch of cells. It is presented to her not objectively at all but as if it were of dire importance that she put an end to her pregnancy; dangers to her health, her future, her family and school life, are paraded before her. No one offers help for raising the child, nor suggests adoption. The sole option presented to her is to put an end to her baby, her first child.

  • ahunt

    Now you are just making things up.

  • ack

    Engaging in contracepted sex is wrong (bad for women, men and children),

     

    Can you explain this, please? I’m genuinely curious.

     

    Life has taught me that it is entirely the healthier and happier, all-natural, responsible, loving and sane course of action to be chaste (for married people, that’s conjugal chastity). This is a virtue, the well rounded person tries to grow in all the virtues, which all go together. I do love truth, beauty, goodness! Like most people, I’m a beginner at it

     

    Again, I need some clarification. Why?

     

    I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m just not sure what your foundation is.

  • jennifer-starr

    And what would you do, ‘compassionately’, if a woman tells you flat-out “I don’t care about adoption or financial support. I don’t want to be pregnant and I don’t want to give birth to my rapist’s baby. Period”  What if she doesn’t follow or believe in the precepts of your particular faith? Keep in mind that we don’t live in a theocracy, after all.  Will you force her to follow your rules anyway?  Try and soothe her with more of your  trite homilies about the dear ‘little one?’

    And what if the victim is a child herself? Not a teen, but a child?  Will you be the one to tell her why she feels sick, why her body is changing and why she can’t do the same activities her friends can? 

    If I come across as snarky, I’m sorry–but you seem to have a black and white outlook when we don’t live in a black and white world. We just don’t.  It’s all very well to say what you think all women should do, but since you’re not the one who actually has to do it (go through a forced pregnancy after you’ve already been violated enough), I don’t see why your opinion should trump that of the rape victims’.  In fact, I don’t see why your opinion should matter at all. 

  • person-0

    Any “barrier” is considered a lack of full acceptance of the “total” person and therefore not a whole, pure, complete (fill in emotional adjective of your choice) expression of true love. Fortunately, most Catholics see past this ludicrous concept and use contraception anyway.

    In reality, where most of us live, contraception is indeed good for women and men. I’m not sure why children were included in her claim.

  • elizabeth-d

    I actually don’t even experience temptation to the sin you are referring to, not for many years. Sexual pleasure has an addictive effect, so this is something many people get into a juvenile habit of, but it’s actually an easier habit to break than, say, smoking, and works best to go cold turkey. Even for married people, sex acts in private are a form of infidelity. It is grave matter. I have actually given up sexual pleasure, sexual fantasy etc for life and over the course of years I actually have never doubted that but have become more confirmed that I made the right choice. I choose single-hearteness for Jesus.

    Conjugal chastity means of course fidelity for life of the married partners, appropriate self control of thoughts and fantasy (absolutely never sexual thoughts about someone other than the spouse for instance, or thoughts about immoral acts with one’s spouse), refraining of course from porn and self abuse, refraining from unnatural sex acts, or interruption of the sex act, every “marital act” must be open to new life. Since there are times for many couples when it is not the right time to become pregnant, they may decide for a time to practice abstinence during the woman’s fertile times. There are today very accurate means of identifying when she’s fertile, and communicating about that helps make for strong marriages, these marriages that practice “natural family planning” have atonishingly low divorce rates. The point is every time they come together the chaste married couple is willing to accept and love the child God may give them through their uni These tend to be very satisfied marriages, for so many other couples their sensitivity to one another is dulled by porn and self indulgent fantasy, and contracepting couples almost inevitably begin to treat sex and its pleasure as an end in itself, and there are always aspects of using and objectifying (and sometimes abusing) one another and becomes like masturbation, a sterile and guilty venereal pleasure. Married sex has its dignity when it retains its whole meaning as being not only an expression of the love and union of the spouses but also bringing forth new life, and is thus very good. It is actually important to consecrated celibacy, that what’s being sacrificed (marriage) is something extremely good, being sacrificed only in order to center the heart on something infinitely better (heaven!).

  • prochoiceferret

    As you point out, Plan B prevents implantation of the child that has already been conceived, cutting short the life of a tiny living human person who cannot continue to grow and develop if implantation is prevented.

     

    You can choose to treat a zygote as though it were a person if you like, but as an argument, the only point it favors is your commitment to a psychiatric facility.

     

    I am not familiar with “feminists for life” and do not know enough about Palin to know what to make of her.

     

    I’m sure they’re both right up your alley.

  • elizabeth-d

    I would (and do) pray for her and continue loving her. A parent could do what they could to prevent their well beloved young daughter from such an action and be there for her. In other cases you can do what you can to offer friendship and love, relieve their fears, offer the truth, and the options, and pray for the person. You can work to end legalized abortion. There has to be a concommitant effort to give substantial support and help to pregnant moms. Wouldn’t it be good if the poor girl or woman wasn’t terrified as if abortion were her only choice or the only choice others would approve of? To often that is so. There need to be offers of strong and loving support and help for continuing the pregnancy, offer adoption, etc.

  • prochoiceferret

    It is widely accepted that if a child has already been conceived, Plan B is able to cause his/her death by preventing implantation, and it is thought this may even be its main means of preventing birth (it can also prevent ovulation). Thus Plan B not only prevents conception, but aborts an embryo that has been conceived.

     

    Sorry, but the death of fertilized eggs isn’t very high on my list of things to care about. Considering that this happens all the time naturally, and you’ve said absolutely nothing about this being a bad thing, it doesn’t seem to be very high on your list either.

     

    In the unlikely event that it is found that the action of Plan B is purely to prevent conception, but would not prevent implantation and development of an already fertilized egg, then it might be morally acceptable in the limited circumstances of a rape as a matter of self defense against the rapist.

     

    Well, I can assure you that no one here, and especially no rape victims, care whether you find their getting the medical care they need “morally acceptable” or not. Indeed, I find your moralizing on the matter to be morally unacceptable. But then, you probably don’t care so much about that either.

     

    Engaging in contracepted sex is wrong (bad for women, men and children),

     

    That only means you’ve never done it, or you’re doing it wrong.

     

    but protecting oneself against the effects of a rape is self defense, though this would never make it okay to cause abortion if a new life has been conceived. The little one didn’t do anything wrong. Being “unplanned” is not a capital crime. What remains is to love.

     

    Apparently, for you, “love” does not include respecting the wishes of the rape victim. So I guess it’s more like the kind of “love” that an abusive husband has for his wife. We can do without that kind of “love.”

     

    Life has taught me that it is entirely the healthier and happier, all-natural, responsible, loving and sane course of action to be chaste (for married people, that’s conjugal chastity). This is a virtue, the well rounded person tries to grow in all the virtues, which all go together. I do love truth, beauty, goodness! Like most people, I’m a beginner at it.

     

    Oh, so you’re an asexual. That’s cool. Assuming that everyone else is going to have the same sexual orientation as you, however, is not cool.

  • ahunt

    Sexual pleasure has an addictive effect…

     

    The BH wishes this were true…

     

    so this is something many people get into a juvenile habit

     

    Juvenile? Wow. Learn sumpin’ new every day.

     

     

    Even for married people, sex acts in private are a form of infidelity.


    Insane Much?

     

    Conjugal chastity means of course fidelity for life of the married partners, appropriate self control of thoughts and fantasy (absolutely never sexual thoughts about someone other than the spouse for instance, or thoughts about immoral acts with one’s spouse)

     

    Gregory Peck, Paul Newman and Sidney Poitier enlivened my dreams before and after marriage. Oh, and Jimmy Smits…in a library. That one was vivid. I actually woke up thinking I had cheated on the BH.  Hellbound, I am.

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

     

    so this is something many people get into a juvenile habit

     Juvenile? Wow. Learn sumpin’ new every day.

     

    Personally, I always thought sex was a grown-up sort of thing to do…

  • prochoiceferret

    A parent could do what they could to prevent their well beloved young daughter from such an action and be there for her.

     

    So what if the parent is the one who did such an action in the first place?

     

    In other cases you can do what you can to offer friendship and love, relieve their fears, offer the truth, and the options, and pray for the person. You can work to end legalized abortion.

     

    Why don’t you just slap them hard across the face? That would be about as effective, and have a much more immediate effect to boot.

     

    There has to be a concommitant effort to give substantial support and help to pregnant moms.

     

    Somehow, I don’t think the Republican Party understands the word “concomitant.”

     

    Wouldn’t it be good if the poor girl or woman wasn’t terrified as if abortion were her only choice or the only choice others would approve of? To often that is so. There need to be offers of strong and loving support and help for continuing the pregnancy, offer adoption, etc.

     

    Wouldn’t it be good if the poor girl or woman wasn’t terrified as if continuing the pregnancy were her only choice or the only choice others would approve of? Too often that is so. There need to be offers of strong and loving support and help for having an abortion, continuing the pregnancy, offering adoption, raising the child herself, etc.

  • jennifer-starr

    My parents have been happily married for 41 years and love each other dearly and they have three children and still have a healthy sex life that keeps their romance alive. As have both sets of grandparents. I know that marriage is more than sex, yes, but what you’re talking about sounds sterile and cold– it doesn’t sound loving or romantic–and it certainly doesn’t sound much like a marriage to me.  Still, to each their own, I suppose. 

  • elizabeth-d

    Asexual? LOL! Being celibate and chaste is not being asexual or not having normal healthy desires or having a complementary and sometimes profoundly enjoyable relationship with the opposite sex. I love men, at the same time I exercise much reserve in my association and friendship with them.

    Some children conceived are not viable or by other natural causes they die, naturally mothers often grieve deeply when they miscarry and other miscarriages happen so early that they are not even conscious of the brief life within them, but you should not be so sure that no tears are shed over these unknown ones. We should not want to be the cause of that. I do not care to explain everything of why, but oh yes I have thought of that and wept, more than once and it is like a thorn in my own heart. You are entirely dead wrong if you think I don’t care about those children. I love them.

  • elizabeth-d

    What I said is not at odds with what you say of your parents, good marriages involve intimacy, in fact the spouses shouldn’t deny each other and if they abstain it should be for a limited time by mutual agreement. Believe me, chaste married people (like Catholics are supposed to be for instance, but there are most certainly others) are supposed to be “into” each other, are warm toward each other, help each other, sweet toward each other, put up with one another lovingly. :-) Your parents’ marriage sounds lovely from what you say.

  • ahunt

    but you should not be so sure that no tears are shed over these unknown ones

     

    Does not compute…

     


  • prochoiceferret

    Asexual? LOL! Being celibate and chaste is not being asexual or not having normal healthy desires or having a complementary and sometimes profoundly enjoyable relationship with the opposite sex. I love men, at the same time I exercise much reserve in my association and friendship with them.

     

    Oh, so you’re more into erotic sexual denial. That’s cool too, as long as you respect that not everyone shares your fetish.

     

    Some children conceived are not viable or by other natural causes they die, naturally mothers often grieve deeply when they miscarry and other miscarriages happen so early that they are not even conscious of the brief life within them, but you should not be so sure that no tears are shed over these unknown ones.

     

    Oh, I’m sure that there are people who weep over the untimely end of unknown human organisms who may or may not have ever existed. I just don’t see that as a good thing.

     

    We should not want to be the cause of that. I do not care to explain everything of why, but oh yes I have thought of that and wept, more than once and it is like a thorn in my own heart. You are entirely dead wrong if you think I don’t care about those children. I love them.

     

    That’s great, but as long as those “children” are inside the uteri of women other than yourself, your boundless love for them doesn’t give you the right to restrict the choices of said women. (After all, I love George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, but that doesn’t give me the right to waltz into the bank vault of my choice, either.)

  • colleen

    You are entirely dead wrong if you think I don’t care about those children. I love them.

    Perhaps then you and your church should start providing funerals for zygotes. Y’all never fed them or provided shelter for them. You have done nothing to make their short lives better.  The least you can do for the countless millions of fertilized and un-implanted ova which are sloughed off every month in the course of menstruation is hold funeral masses for them. Let us know where we can send the used tampax.

     

  • ch

    But you didn’t answer the question.  The question is what to do you tell the woman who does not care about anything you are saying and wants to end her pregnancy.  In fact, this woman would be me if I were to become pregnant.  I am perfectly able to support a child, I have no interest in doing so and even with additional support, I would still be uninterested in continuing a pregnancy/birthing a child. 

    I also believe adoption is inherently wrong and would never even entertain the idea. 

    And I give less than a shit about your religion, your faith, your beliefs, your prayers and/or your sky fairy. 

    So, what do you tell me?

  • ahunt

    Give it up, CH. You will never, EVER get an answer. We’ve all tried, time and again.

  • ljean8080

    what do you have against it?

  • crowepps

    This board discusses public policy and civil rights and in most cases tries to do so in general terms.

    If you want an affirmation that your personal, individual coming into existence was necessary for the universe to continue functioning, discuss it with your pastor or a psychologist; either will be glad to reassure about that so long as you pay them to do so.

  • ljean8080

    i don’t pay my pastor,he tAlks for free.

  • freetobe

    I have much to say about adoption I too was adopted. While i am eternally grateful for the two wonderful loving adopted parents I had I cannot say the same for the biological ones. Though I will give my birth mother some slack because at the time of my birth pregnant un-wed mothers were shuffled off to homes for the pregnant un-weds. Mine went to a catholic home. Every birthday came and went with no call from” mommy” and certainly not from the sperm donor who I inherited my chronic depression from “thanks dad” I was told he was not motivated enough to maarry my birth mother. So all this has made me furious with the world first off becuase the men get to walk away scot free from their responsiblities and my birth mother must have had severe hatred for men when she was pregnant with me because i was born terrified of men and loathing them at the same time.

    Any way i always felt different than all my friends never had any brothers or sisters and lost my wonderful adopted parents way too soon in my life. Now i am without a family at all with the exception of my only blood relative my daughter.

    the deperession had been so bad especially after the birth of my only daughter that i tryed to commit suicide. i did not know this ran in my family at the time would have been helpful.

    Still no mommy it would be nice to have known her especially now that I have been basically alone in a cruel divorced women’s life for over 20 years. It is too late now I have learned to act like a man and suck it all in.

    No, adoption is not the only answer and sometimes not a good one at all.

     

  • crowepps

    Ad hominem arguments work via the halo effect, a human cognitive  bias in which the perception of one trait is influenced by the perception of an unrelated trait, e.g. treating an attractive person as more intelligent or more honest. People tend to see others as tending to all good or tending to all bad. Thus, if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if the bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    The problem with using the ad hominem argument ‘I was adopted’ as an argument is two-fold.  First, in order to keep discussions civil, ad hominem arguments are discouraged.

    That is because the obvious counter to your ‘I exist’ argument is ‘so what?’  Your mere existence doesn’t provide any useful information unless there is evidence you’re a net benefit to the world.  The average American makes little positive contribution to the world while using up a disproportionate share of  the world’s resources.  This is particularly true for those who believe their religious beliefs justify their appointing themselves the moral monitors of other people’s lives, since we have an enormous oversupply of the smugly self-righteous now.

  • ch

    If pro-liars were really interested in a “culture of life”, I don’t believe adoption would exist except in extraordinary extenuating circumstances.

    A “culture of life” would presuppose that women would have access to the resources they need to birth and raise their children and would have that access regardless of their marital or class status.  Access to decent housing, to medical care, including counseling and other services, to education for them and their children, access to work opportunites that would allow them to pay for the basic necessities of life, and access to safe childcare.  A “culture of life” would realize that the better we treat our children the better for society both in the present and future.   There would be no need for adoption because women would be able to adequately care for their children even if they didn’t initially possess the resources to do so.  I think that would cause a drop in the adoption rate in the same way that the eradication of the stigma of “single” motherhood did in the late 1960’s and 1970’s.  If a “culture of life” truly existed adoption would only be for children without any living family members at all.  And even if women had access to all the things I mentioned before, it would still only address “unintended” pregnancies.  It would never address “unwanted” pregnancies.

    I know that many, many people were adopted but the reasons WHY they were adopted belie a true “culture of life.” Example, the top six reasons women give their children up for adoption are:  (1) too young, (2) economics, (3) fear, (4) lack of support, (5) traumatic event (rape, incest), and (6) being unable to parent (usually medical or physical limitations including mental illness, addiction, etc.).  I addressed every one of those reasons with the exception of a “traumatic event”.