News:Abortion

Ron Paul: They Put The Baby In A Bucket

by Robin Marty, Senior Political Reporter, RH Reality Check

October 14, 2011 - 11:43 am

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teenytiny

Ron Paul believes abortion should be left to the States. He does not believe in taxpayer funded abortion – why should the American people have to fund something over 50% of them are gravely morally opposed to? Ron Paul does not believe in funding “a woman’s right to choose to KILL her unborn baby in the womb.”

Honestly… I don’t see what the problem is with this video? He has always maintained his position on this issue and I believe he has the experience and education to back up his arguement. What is your problem with what he says?

On a side note, I’m surprised no one on rh reality check has brough up the 180 movie on youtube yet…

You know, the one with over 1 million views??
ahunt

I’ve watched it, read about it…and frankly am too bored and tired to once again debunk the Holocaust strawman.
forced-birth-rape

Quotes from pro-forced birthers.

“Anders Behring Breivik christian terrorist, pro-forced-birther.

What he thinks about womens rights, women need to breed, breed, breed.

He has the same ideas for women as republicans, conservatives, and pro-lifers.

1. Limit the distribution of birth-control pills (contraceptive pills): Discourage the use of and prevent liberal distribution of contraceptive pills or equivalent prevention methods. The goal should be to make it considerably more difficult to obtain. This alone should increase the fertility rate by 0,1 points but would degrade women’s rights.

2. Reform sex education: Reform the current sex education in our school institutions. This may involve limiting it or at least delaying sex education to a later age and discourage casual sex. Sex should only be encouraged within the boundaries of marriage. This alone should increase the fertility rate by 0,1 points.

3. Making abortion illegal: A re-introduction of the ban on abortion should result in an increased fertility rate of approximately 0,1-0,2 points but would strip women of basic rights.

4. Women and education: Discourage women in general to strive for full time careers. This will involve certain sexist and discriminating policies but should increase the fertility rate by up to 0,1-0,2 points.

Women should not be encouraged by society/media to take anything above a bachelor’s degree but should not be prevented from taking a master or PhD. Males on the other hand should obviously continue to be encouraged to take higher education – bachelor, master and PhD.”

“Self-Described ‘Christian Counterpart To Osama Bin Laden’ Arrested In Plot To Bomb Abortion Clinic

Justin Carl Moose describe “himself” as the Christian counterpart to Osama bin Laden. Moose wrote: “I have learned a lot from the muslim terrorists and have no problem using their tactics.” ”

“St. Augustine said, “Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself guilty of that many murders.”

”Martin Luther wrote: “God created Adam lord of all living creatures, but Eve spoiled it all. Women should remain at home, sit still, keep house and bear children. And if a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it.”

Pro-lifers favorite piece of literature of all time.

Genesis 3:16

“I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and cravings will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
teenytiny

Ok, without bringing up the holocaust, Christianity, Banana Man, Jesus, Nazis, ANY OF THAT…

Can you finish his sentance:

“It is OK to kill a baby in the womb WHEN __________.”

Because that’s where I was pretty stuck.
beenthere72

I watched it long enough to be completely offended by it as a Jew, which wasn’t long at all.
beenthere72

It is ok for a woman to choose to end her pregnancy when it’s for her own reason and not up to you or me, IMO, prior to viability (able to survive outside the womb) unless medically necessary.
jennifer-starr

I’m so dreadfully sorry you were stuck, teeny-tiny. My heart goes out to you, truly. Because I watched the movie too, and nothing that I heard convinced me that the decision on what to do with a pregnancy should ever be made by anyone other than the woman who’s actually pregnant. It should be up to her, her doctors and no one else. It shouldn’t be up to the so-called ‘family values’ (cough) politicians in DC and it most certainly shouldn’t be up to Mr. Banana and that washed-up sitcom star sidekick of his.
colleen

Because that’s where I was pretty stuck.

Your deeply creepy hero just voted to allow Catholic hospitals to, as a matter of institutional policy, murder women with impunity for the sin of having a body that is unable to sustain a pregnancy. The son of a bitch (who was, apparently, once licensed as an Ob-Gyn) understand exactly what he did when he made that vote even if his moronic followers are stupid enough to believe any rationalization.

What a shame that you didn’t get “pretty stuck” somewhere else. You know, folks like you and Ron Paul help explain the growing number of cases where some religious right woman kills someone in late pregnancy so that she can steal the fetus. When the morons who pretend to moral superiority speak of and treat women with the contempt that Ron Paul or the Catholic heirarchy does it gives women like you license to do the same. The one last week cut the woman open with an exacto knife and managed to kill the fetus at the same time.
teenytiny

May I ask, as a Jew why you were you offended? Ray Comfort himself is Jewish. My best friend is Jewish as well, and really supports this documentary. What parts did you find offensive?
teenytiny

IMO I believe it is OK to kill an unborn child when the mothers health or life is seriously at risk. Out of all anti-abortion people I have met and spoke to, I have never heard ONE person disagree with that (you will find some nuts on the internet that do, I’m sure; and I can’t argue with someone that out to lunch). The majority of anti-abortion people, while they may not morally agree with it, DO ACKNOWLEDGE that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest (less than 5% of ALL abortions). I will not disagree with you on that.

You said you believe abortion is NOT OKAY after the fetus is viable, which I agree with.

But you still didn’t give a reason! You said “When its for her own reason” What reason??

“I’m not ready to be a parent?” - Great, I’m not either – give your baby up for adoption.
“I can’t afford this child” – You know, I probably couldn’t afford one either, but there are thousands of couples that can, and WANT to adopt a baby.

And also, I think its strange that comments that are voted down on this site are hidden? What, are you afraid that what I say might hold some truth to it?
teenytiny

If you believe it should not be up to “politicians in DC” and the government…

Then you can’t hardly argue that the government should FUND it… Do you believe taxpayers should have to pay for abortions they are morally opposed to? Because THAT is what Dr. Paul is against.
forced-birth-rape

”Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist.”

“A senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church’s decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil.”

“Police believe the girl was sexually assaulted for years by her stepfather, possibly since she was six. That she was four months pregnant with twins emerged only after she was taken to hospital complaining of severe stomach pains.”
beenthere72

We can still read your comments, even when they’re voted down.

The point is, nobody should be required to justify their reason for an abortion to a neutral party or a total stranger. I’ve had 2 abortions, the reasons are none of your business. Pregnancy is not exactly a no-big-deal-someone-else-want-a-baby situation. Birth control is not always reliable and some sexual situations are not always consenual.
jennifer-starr

Okay then, teeny. If you want to logically follow the chain of belief that our tax dollars should not go towards things that we are morally opposed to, then I don’t want my tax dollars going towards pointless wars (i.e. Iraq), nuclear weaponry, oil subsidies (they don’t need them), corporate tax breaks, planes that never get off the ground, crisis pregnancy centers and the like. Because I’m morally opposed to all those thngs. And while we’re at it, I’d like MORE of my tax dollars to go towards WIC, prenatal care, subsidized daycare, Head Start, free school lunches and subsidized health insurance for low-income children. You know, all those programs that actually help mothers and their children–the same programs that allegedly compassionate ‘pro-life’ people are always wanting to cut. Thank you.
beenthere72

Because living, breathing people were tortured and exterminated. People that felt pain and emotion. Millions of people that once existed whose life and death should be respected, not used to push an agenda that forces women to carry all pregnancies to term. Also, by comparing abortion to the Holocaust, you are comparing women who have abortions to Hitler.

The only thing Jewish about Ray Comfort was his mother. He was not raised as a Jew and he self proclaims to be a Christian minister and evangelist.

http://rac.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=713

http://rac.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=3490&pge_prg_id=14608&pge_id=2419

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=2199&TTL=Holocaust_Trivialization

Paul Spiegel, the then president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, said the cardinal had insulted the millions of victims of the Holocaust. He added that “The Catholic Church does not understand or does not want to understand that there is an enormous difference between mass genocide and what women do with their bodies.”
colleen

IMO I believe it is OK to kill an unborn child when the mothers health or life is seriously at risk.

Well Ron Paul does not agree with you. Neither does every elected Republican in the House and the every Bishop in the country.

Out of all anti-abortion people I have met and spoke to, I have never heard ONE person disagree with that (you will find some nuts on the internet that do, I’m sure; and I can’t argue with someone that out to lunch).

How deep is your denial in the face of reality? The USCCB just lobbied to make mandatory deaths (through refusal of treatment) of pregnant women whose bodies are unable to sustain their pregnancy a matter of hospital policy and a matter of ‘conscience’. Conscience. It takes some real hatred to pretend that killing women by denying them necessary emergency treatment is a matter of “conscience” and yet the entire contingent of Republicans in the US House just voted “yes” on HB 358. Including Ron Frickin Paul. And still you come here and pretend that you folks aren’t exteme, that you’re good people who just care about the babiees.

What you agree with or don’t agree with is not important. Other women aren’t breeding livestock and if couples want to raise children they should start adopting some of the 100,000 foster children available.
teenytiny

First of all, I want you to know that I do not judge you for having two abortions; I have many friends who have had abortions as well, and I am a strong believer that women need compassion and NOT shame.

I would also like to say that I am a single career-minded woman who DOES NOT want children at this time, nor can I afford them, so pregnancy would be just as big a deal to me as it is/was to you.

That being said, I believe it is a woman’s RIGHT to sexual freedom – she should be able to sleep with whomever she wants, whenever she wants, however she wants. But with RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITIES. Birth Control DOES fail, we all know that. So regardless of how careful you are, unexpected pregnancy still happens to millions of women a year.

I believe that if someone can not accept responsibility for their actions, they should not be having sex. Am I saying you should be abstinent always? NO!! I am saying that if you WILLINGLY choose to have sex knowing there is a chance of pregnancy even with birth control, but then refuse to carry the pregnancy to term (note I did not say you have to accept PARENTHOOD, just pregnancy), I can not support that decision. Nor do I feel the government should have to pay for it. It is irresponsible. Women today view abortion as a back-up, a way out, if all else fails. This is why there are over 3000 abortions EVERY DAY in the USA. Why women have 2, 3, sometimes 4 abortions in their lifetime. It is now viewed as a means of contraception, and I just can not condone this.

I do not judge these women, but I will NEVER support this choice.

Abortion is not an empowering choice for women – it is devastating proof that society has given us women no better option.
beenthere72

Pregnancy should never be considered a form of punishment for being irresponsible. What punishment do men get to endure for those ~9 months? I don’t think that 2, 3, 4 abortions in a lifetime is comparable to using it as contraception (how many years are we sexually active?).   These same women also have wanted children.

You must be in the enviable position where pregnancy would not derail your life and career (for the record, I am too – though I might have a hard time cutting out the cigs and vino - but am lucky that my husband is snipped), while you’re considering how many abortions are done every day, you might want to consider the lives of the women and girls involved and stop your focus on punishment and fetuses.   Most are not as lucky as us to have health insurance, employment with paid maternity leave, many might have addictions to drugs or alcohol that would put a pregnancy in peril.     You’re looking for reasons and there are a many legitimate reasons.   But we can’t say it’s ok for this but not ok for that because what makes one pregnancy really any different than another? One is not a toaster oven in an ‘approved-according-to-you’ abortion.

In the kind of society it seems you want, there’d be a heckuva lot more infanticide.   And suicide, for that matter, and death from botched abortions.    I can’t live with that.    I can live with safe and legal abortions.
prochoiceferret

First of all, I want you to know that I do not judge you for having two abortions; I have many friends who have had abortions as well, and I am a strong believer that women need compassion and NOT shame.

Then perhaps you can tell all your “pro-life” buddies to stop calling abortion “murder” and the women who have them “murderers.” You would do as well not to say that they “KILL [their] unborn baby in the womb,” because last time I checked, that was about as compassionate as a smelly wet fish to the face.

But with RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITIES. Birth Control DOES fail, we all know that. So regardless of how careful you are, unexpected pregnancy still happens to millions of women a year.

Yes, and if a woman becomes unwantedly pregnant, she can be responsible by having an abortion.

I believe that if someone can not accept responsibility for their actions, they should not be having sex. Am I saying you should be abstinent always? NO!! I am saying that if you WILLINGLY choose to have sex knowing there is a chance of pregnancy even with birth control, but then refuse to carry the pregnancy to term (note I did not say you have to accept PARENTHOOD, just pregnancy), I can not support that decision.

Great! I don’t support everything you do, either! Isn’t it lovely to live in a free country, where I can’t force you to live in a way that meets with my personal approval?

Nor do I feel the government should have to pay for it. It is irresponsible.

So you would rather the government pay to subsidize the care, schooling, and (potentially) policing and imprisonment of unwanted children? Because that sounds a lot more irresponsible to me.

Women today view abortion as a back-up, a way out, if all else fails. This is why there are over 3000 abortions EVERY DAY in the USA. Why women have 2, 3, sometimes 4 abortions in their lifetime. It is now viewed as a means of contraception, and I just can not condone this.

Neither do I. Abortion is not contraception, because by the time you need one, conception has already occurred. It is, rather, a form of birth control, because it prevents birth from occurring.

I do not judge these women, but I will NEVER support this choice.

You don’t have to. You just have to support their right to make their own choices, just as I support yours.

Abortion is not an empowering choice for women -

But being forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term against their will, is?

it is devastating proof that society has given us women no better option.

Personally, I think culturally-endemic sexism and misogyny, a relative deficit in economic and political power, and an enduring desire among many to deny women control over their own reproductive processes, works much better to prove that.
ahunt

I believe that if someone can not accept responsibility for their actions, they should not be having sex.

So you would agree that a married woman is under no obligation to have sex with her husband unless she is willing to be pregnant, yes?
crowepps

IMO I believe it is OK to kill an unborn child when the mothers health or life is seriously at risk. Out of all anti-abortion people I have met and spoke to, I have never heard ONE person disagree with that

And yet the polls pretty consistently show that when asked to agree or disagree with the specific statement “Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances, even if the mother’s life is in danger.” about 10 to 15% of the respondents say they agree that, yes, women whose life is in danger shouldn’t be allowed to have abortions. That’s approximately one-third to one-half of those who are adamently ProLife.

Of course, many of them justify their position by saying something like “the doctors should always try to save them both” even though that simply isn’t possible, or “that never happens” even though there are thousands of cases annually, or even “claims women’s lives might be in danger are just propaganda because pregnancy isn’t a disease” as though the 600 women who die annually in this country right now are imaginary.

I believe the Catholic position was laid out clearly by Bishop Olmstead: there are NO circumstances under which direct abortion of an unborn child is permitted, even if as a consequence the mother will die. He obviously agrees 100% with his predecessor, Catholic Priest Martin Luther: “If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it.”

http://ncronline.org/news/justice/nun-excommunicated-allowing-abortion
teenytiny

Pregnancy should never be considered a form of punishment for being irresponsible. What punishment do men get to endure for those ~9 months?

I do not believe pregnancy should ever be viewed as “punishment,” and unfortunately as human beings, we have no control over the fact that women get pregnant and not men. As another woman, I apologize for this being ‘unfair,’ but there is not much you or I can do to change this!

It is not about ‘punishing’ women. Pregnancy is not a punishment; it is a possible result of having sex. If you choose to have sex, you WILLINGLY open yourself up to the possibility of becoming pregnant.

Is it too much to ask of women, to carry our unexpected pregnancy to term and give that baby to a loving family instead of denying it a life? Adoption seems like a much more loving, and natural decision for a woman and her body than sucking the fetus out by a vacuum.

I do not understand why the option of adoption gets such little support. I see that as the ultimate expression of love, selflessness, and empowerment for a woman.

You must be in the enviable position where pregnancy would not derail your life and career

Actually it would completely derail my life and career right now. Which is why I am currently NOT taking the risk and having sex.

In the kind of society it seems you want, there’d be a heckuva lot more infanticide. And suicide, for that matter, and death from botched abortions. I can’t live with that.

Actually, the rates for depression and suicide go up exponentially AFTER a woman has an abortion. My friend still regrets hers; she really suffered. She is a phenomenal person and a very strong women, but had deep physical and emotional distress after her abortion. Of course I am not saying EVERY woman suffers from PAS, but it is a very real problem that no one talks about.

There are TWO victims after an abortion. Where’s the support for the woman afterward? Oh right, PP already got their check in the mail.
jennifer-starr

Is it too much to ask of women, to carry our unexpected pregnancy to term and give that baby to a loving family instead of denying it a life?

Is it too much to ask of you that you step back and leave that decision up to the woman? If a woman chooses adoption that’s her decision, but it is not her duty to serve as a walking incubator for another couple.
ahunt

It is not about ‘punishing’ women. Pregnancy is not a punishment; it is a possible result of having sex

And women WILL carry that pregnancy to term…no matter what! Pro-lifers haff vays uff makink them. But no…no punishment intended.

http://atheism.about.com/od/religiousright/ig/Christian-Propaganda-Posters/Pregnancy-Punishment-Sex.htm

“Making it harder for people to avoid pregnancy would make it harder for people to engage in sexual activity outside the boundaries of what the Christian Right deems morally licit. Some actually do want more women to get pregnant; most, however, seem to hope that the fear of pregnancy will induce more women to just say “no” to sex at all. In this way, pregnancy is definitely being treated like punishment not unlike fines or jail are a punishment designed to alter people’s behavior.”

Is it too much to ask of women, to carry our unexpected pregnancy to term and give that baby to a loving family instead of denying it a life?

Lose the notion that women are nothing more than brood mares for other people.

Actually, the rates for depression and suicide go up exponentially AFTER a woman has an abortion.

Cites please?

Which is why I am currently NOT taking the risk and having sex.

So one more time…you agree that married women who do not wish to be pregnant are under no obligation to have sex with their husbands. Fair question, and one you cannot avoid.
prochoiceferret

Is it too much to ask of women, to carry our unexpected pregnancy to term and give that baby to a loving family instead of denying it a life?

Not for the right price. Would that loving family happen to have a spare, oh, $4 million or so lying around?

Adoption seems like a much more loving, and natural decision for a woman and her body than sucking the fetus out by a vacuum.

So does living in a commune, but I don’t see too many people doing that, either.

I do not understand why the option of adoption gets such little support. I see that as the ultimate expression of love, selflessness, and empowerment for a woman.

So why don’t you do it?

Actually it would completely derail my life and career right now. Which is why I am currently NOT taking the risk and having sex.

Are you saying that your measly little life and career are more important than “the ultimate expression of love, selflessness, and empowerment for a woman?” Isn’t having a baby and giving it up for adoption “a much more loving, and natural decision for a woman and her body” than trying to keep up with the rat race?

Actually, the rates for depression and suicide go up exponentially AFTER a woman has an abortion.

No, actually, they don’t.

My friend still regrets hers; she really suffered. She is a phenomenal person and a very strong women, but had deep physical and emotional distress after her abortion.

I’m sure that you had nothing to do with that. Nothing at all…

There are TWO victims after an abortion.

The common decency of right-wingers, and the common sense of Internet trolls like you?

Where’s the support for the woman afterward? Oh right, PP already got their check in the mail.

That would depend on whether she has health insurance. Oh, and velcome to kapitalism, komrade!
ahunt

Not for the right price. Would that loving family happen to have a spare, oh, $4 million or so lying around?

I can work with that…

Are you saying that your measly little life and career are more important than “the ultimate expression of love, selflessness, and empowerment for a woman?” Isn’t having a baby and giving it up for adoption “a much more loving, and natural decision for a woman and her body” than trying to keep up with the rat race?

Naughty, Naughty Ferret…
cactus-wren

And I should believe one word of this baby-in-a-bucket anecdote … why, please?
wendy-banks

I do not judge these women, but I will NEVER support this choice.

You don’t have to accept it, anti-choicers just have to keep their mouths shut and mind their own business. I am not a christian, so don’t go to a church and tell them how to run things, I just don’t go. (aka, don’t like abortions? Don’t have one.) And BTW, you are indeed judging people, by you actions here.
ahunt

And I should believe one word of this baby-in-a-bucket anecdote … why, please?

Snerk.

But to be sorta fair…this probably happened sometime-someplace-somewhere…

Which is why we need to base national policy on the anecdote. Rilly.
forced-birth-rape

“According to court documents, the couple’s adopted daughter, Hana Williams, 13, was systematically starved, beaten, forced to use an outdoor toilet and sometimes locked in a dark closet for days by the Williams.”

” she was found dead in May – naked, face-down in the mud in her own backyard – after she had spent much of a cold, rainy day outside as a punishment, according to court documents.”

http://lovejoyfeminism.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-many-more-must-die.html
reproductivefreedomfighter

None of us who have had abortions really care if you judge us or not. My abortions were my decision, and the reason is simply none of your business.
reproductivefreedomfighter

Psssst….taxpayer money doesn’t go to abortions. Hasn’t since the Hyde amendment came into play. I mean, if Planned Parenthood was squirreling away money for abortions, don’t you think some anti would have found out? I must have missed that Dateline.
teenytiny

Lose the notion that women are nothing more than brood mares for other people.

I do not believe this nor did I state this; a woman’s sole purpose is not to “breed” for other people. I myself do not have children. Like I stated before, if I became pregnant through CHOOSING to have consensual sex, I would deem it my responsibility as an INDIVIDUAL – not as a woman – to continue with the pregnancy. It is not a woman’s issue at all (despite how many lovely slogans they throw around to divert you away from the actual issue). Once you are pregnant, there are two separate human entities sharing the one body. Science has proven this. It is a human being – not an organ, not a virus, not a fish. A human being – quite possibly another ‘little’ woman.

So one more time…you agree that married women who do not wish to be pregnant are under no obligation to have sex with their husbands. Fair question, and one you cannot avoid.

A woman is NEVER under obligation to have sex with ANYONE – including her husband. If a married couple is in such a dire situation that they absolutely can not handle or afford to have a child, I see no problem in abstaining from sex for a little while. I will point out though that statistically married women are NOT the highest demographic having abortions.

Actually, the rates for depression and suicide go up exponentially AFTER a woman has an abortion.

Cites please?

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/post_abortion_syndrome_character.asp

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/effect_of_abortion.asp
prochoiceferret

if I became pregnant through CHOOSING to have consensual sex, I would deem it my responsibility as an INDIVIDUAL – not as a woman – to continue with the pregnancy.

So why do you want to deem this the responsibility of all women? The law, after all, kind of applies to everyone.

It is not a woman’s issue at all (despite how many lovely slogans they throw around to divert you away from the actual issue).

I suppose you have a point there, but it’s not the one you think you made.

Once you are pregnant, there are two separate human entities sharing the one body. Science has proven this. It is a human being – not an organ, not a virus, not a fish. A human being – quite possibly another ‘little’ woman.

Sorry, but it’s not a “human being” until it’s born. Kind of how you’re not a “human fetus” anymore. (Sure, you can say you’re a very old and ugly-looking human fetus, but that would put you in “I am the king of France!” territory.)

And regardless of what you call it, it does not have the right to be inside the woman’s body if she doesn’t want it there.

A woman is NEVER under obligation to have sex with ANYONE – including her husband. If a married couple is in such a dire situation that they absolutely can not handle or afford to have a child, I see no problem in abstaining from sex for a little while.

What if they still absolutely can not handle or afford to have a child after “a little while?”

I will point out though that statistically married women are NOT the highest demographic having abortions.

So you have no problem with them doing so, then?

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/post_abortion_syndrome_character.asp http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/effect_of_abortion.asp

When we say, “cites please,” it’s presumed that these would be materials accepted by mainstream science, and not the scribblings of a raving anti-choicer in a white coat.

David C. Reardon is the American director of the Elliot Institute and an advocate in favor of legislating strict barriers to abortion.^[1] Reardon is the author of a number of articles and five books examining the controversial issue of mental health effects associated with abortion (see abortion and mental health). Reardon is a pro-life activist, and was described in the New York Times Magazine as the “Moses” of the “post-abortion movement”.^[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reardon
teenytiny

Is it too much to ask of women, to carry our unexpected pregnancy to term and give that baby to a loving family instead of denying it a life?

Not for the right price. Would that loving family happen to have a spare, oh, $4 million or so lying around?

Every year over 1 million couples want to adopt a baby – yet there are only about 50,000 babies placed for adoption each year. That leaves… hmmm… around 950,000 couples?

- Source National Council For Adoption

I do not understand why the option of adoption gets such little support. I see that as the ultimate expression of love, selflessness, and empowerment for a woman.

So why don’t you do it?

Actually I would like to one day! I personally would be quite happy never being pregnant (though I am not against the idea, just not one of those OMG need to have a baby of my own types – nothing wrong with that either!) But I am still in my mid 20s, so I think I’ll wait a little!

Are you saying that your measly little life and career are more important than “the ultimate expression of love, selflessness, and empowerment for a woman?” Isn’t having a baby and giving it up for adoption “a much more loving, and natural decision for a woman and her body” than trying to keep up with the rat race?

Yep, right now my measly career and little life is more important than that. Again, why I am being responsible and not putting myself in a position where I could get pregnant. If I decide to have sex, and end up pregnant unexpectedly, my priorities would change. But right now, my measly little life and career goals are my focus! :)

My friend still regrets hers; she really suffered. She is a phenomenal person and a very strong women, but had deep physical and emotional distress after her abortion.

I’m sure that you had nothing to do with that. Nothing at all…

This was just mean. Just because I disagree with your opinions, does not mean I am not a compassionate person. Did I say you were not compassionate? I’m sure you are a wonderful friend, sister, daughter, etc – probably a really wonderful human being – you just have some f*cked up views, thats all.
And for the record – the whole situation/her counseling happened 2 years before I even met her. So no, I had nothing to do with it.

There are TWO victims after an abortion.
The common decency of right-wingers, and the common sense of Internet trolls like you?
Where’s the support for the woman afterward? Oh right, PP already got their check in the mail.

That would depend on whether she has health insurance. Oh, and velcome to kapitalism, komrade!

You are actually very witty, and this did honestly make me laugh. So I won’t argue with you on these two points! :)
teenytiny

Did I say I was a Christian? And when did abortion and human rights become a religious issue only? There are many atheists and agnostics that are anti-abortion. And no, I am not judging women who have had abortions – but I do judge the act/choice of abortion. Just like I can support and love my brother, even though I don’t support his choice to go blackout college drinking every weekend.
prochoiceferret

Every year over 1 million couples want to adopt a baby – yet there are only about 50,000 babies placed for adoption each year. That leaves… hmmm… around 950,000 couples?

Great! So I’m sure one of those couples is willing to meet the price, right?

Actually I would like to one day! I personally would be quite happy never being pregnant (though I am not against the idea, just not one of those OMG need to have a baby of my own types – nothing wrong with that either!) But I am still in my mid 20s, so I think I’ll wait a little!

The longer you wait, the more likely your baby will be born with birth defects. If only you weren’t so selfish and self-centered on your career and not having babies and all, you would’ve realized that.

Yep, right now my measly career and little life is more important than that. Again, why I am being responsible and not putting myself in a position where I could get pregnant. If I decide to have sex, and end up pregnant unexpectedly, my priorities would change. But right now, my measly little life and career goals are my focus! :)

Why do you refuse to follow ["pro-lifer"] God’s plan for your life? Do you hate Him?

This was just mean. Just because I disagree with your opinions, does not mean I am not a compassionate person. Did I say you were not compassionate? I’m sure you are a wonderful friend, sister, daughter, etc – probably a really wonderful human being – you just have some f*cked up views, thats all.

You want to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, and I’m the one with “f-star-cked up” views?

And for the record – the whole situation/her counseling happened 2 years before I even met her. So no, I had nothing to do with it.

Perhaps you need to make friends with some of the women who have had abortions, and were glad to have done so.

You are actually very witty, and this did honestly make me laugh. So I won’t argue with you on these two points! :)

Considering all the crimes against women that anti-choicers have committed and seek to commit still, we can use a few laughs around here.
jennifer-starr

This is off-topic, I know, but I wish just once that some of the people who come in here extolling the virtues of adoption would talk about adopting some of the kids who are now languishing in our seriously screwed-up foster care system. Many of them would love to have a permanent home with a family who loves them, but they’re often considered unadoptable because everyone wants a baby.
jennifer-starr

This will drive you crazy, I know, but women who have made this choice do not require your approval of what they’ve done, because quite frankly, it’s none of your business. And before you bring this up (as I know you will), it’s none of your tax dollars either. Hyde Amendment.
ahunt

I do not believe this nor did I state this; a woman’s sole purpose is not to “breed” for other people.

Sole? But you do believe it is ONE of a woman’s purposes, if the annoying woo-woo language is to be taken at face value.

A woman is NEVER under obligation to have sex with ANYONE – including her husband.

PREACH IT, Sister. Take this message far and wide…in particular…contact your fellow pro-lifer, Dennis Prager, with the good news.

If a married couple is in such a dire situation that they absolutely can not handle or afford to have a child, I see no problem in abstaining from sex for a little while.

Define “a little while.” And why would the “straits” have to be? “dire?” Does a woman’s own preferences, career and happiness and future figure anywhere in your calculations?
forced-birth-rape

http://www.adoptuskids.org/
forced-birth-rape

~ I just became an atheist a little over a year ago.

I was raised in the southern Baptist wife beating convention, and went to Christian home school. Many of the men in my family were southern Baptist preachers. The men in my family were consumed with female submission, they had a belligerent condescending abhorrence of any woman who was not married (under a mans authority) and had a way to escape pregnancy.

I have heard enough of their behind closed doors rhetoric to know they use pregnancy and motherhood as bondage to keep women subjugated. If women are going to attempt to be free, go to school, get nice jobs, divorce their husbands, have sex outside of marriage the Christians will just force women to breed themselves into submission. ~

~ Oh and I have been going to atheist websites and have made atheist friends, most do not support forced birth. ~

~You talk just like fundamentalist misogynistic Christians. ~

~ I do not have the right to go hook up to my fathers body and use his body against his will. I do not have the right to cause my father unwanted genital pain against his will to save myself. If I attempt these things he has every right to prevent me from doing it to him against his will. Yet I have physical and emotional feelings something embryos and fetuses do not have. ~

~ I am an atheist and I believe abortion and birth control should be free and legal the world over. One of the many reasons is because I was sexually abused as a child, and I had a mother who did not love me. My childhood was hell because my mother did not value me and could not take care of me. I spent my teenage years screaming at my mother telling her I wish she had aborted me, she told me she wished her mother had aborted her. ~

~ How very easy it is for pro-forced birthers to sign little girls like me up to live with mothers who hate us with a bloody passion and make sure we know it, and who allow us to be used as child sex toys. That being said I feel very sorry for my mother she has had a toxic life. ~
wendy-banks

No, I just said *I* wasn’t. Did you even read my comment?
plume-assassine

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/post_abortion_syndrome_character.asp

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/effect_of_abortion.asp

LMAO… do you honestly think this is an unbiased, scientific, medically-sound web site? You think this junk is based on any RCTs or cohort studies? Hell no, just by glancing at the references & journals this cute “fact” sheet uses in the first link, I could tell you that. ”Abortionfacts.com” oh, gee, that’s not a propaganda web site at all, noooooo…
crowepps

He spends the first few minutes setting the scene — the ‘good stuff’ starts at about 3:45

“Losing Hope: Carter, Catholics and Abortion”

http://hnn.us/hnn-videos/8-22-2011/larry-mcandrews-carter-catholics-abortion
person-0

Is it too much to ask of women, to carry our unexpected pregnancy to term and give that baby to a loving family instead of denying it a life?

Yes it is. Who are you to ask anything of women you don’t know? Women’s lives are more than an unwanted pregnancy and abortion is often the best solution to the problem. Only they can make that determination and your personal assignation of the value of someone else’s fetus is irrelevant, not to mention creepy. Gestation and childbirth come with risks and numerous physical and emotional effects that women simply do not want to endure just to birth a child for someone else. Adoption also comes with its own problems and many women do not wish to have progeny out there for a number of reasons, all of which are none of your business.

Adoption seems like a much more loving, and natural decision for a woman and her body than sucking the fetus out by a vacuum.

To whom? You? So what. In the real world, abortion seems like the right and natural decision for millions of women every year. Adoption is not a natural decision at all and doesn’t remove the entire period of gestation which is accomplished through abortion.

Why should other women have to live as you want them to? The choices you make for your life are not applicable to all women. Do you want others forcing you to live as they do because of their beliefs or should you be trusted and allowed to make your own decisions because you know what you’re doing?

Once you are pregnant, there are two separate human entities sharing the one body.

They are not “sharing” one body. The body still belongs to the woman as she has primary and previous ownership. In the case of two entities existing in the same body, only ONE can have paramount rights and that will always be the woman. She does not relinquish sole ownership of her body because she becomes pregnant regardless of your opinion of what she “should” do.
colleen

Every year over 1 million couples want to adopt a baby – yet there are only about 50,000 babies placed for adoption each year. That leaves… hmmm… around 950,000 couples?

- Source National Council For Adoption

Here’s the thing you ‘a woman’s purpose in life should be to produce infants for ‘loving couples’ folks never respond to. There are LOTS of children available for adoption and under conservative rule there are more every year. The problem is that those ‘loving couples’ want a baby, preferably male, preferably white who looks llike them. The problem is that the folks who profit from stealing and selling the babies of poor women don’t have a large enough selection for their customers . The issue isn’t your collective concern for children. Your problem is that there just aren’t enough pink, preferably male infants available to ‘loving couples’.

Face it, you want to use other women as breeding livestock.
ch

I will point out though that statistically married women are NOT the highest demographic having abortions.

BZZZ, WRONG. Per Guttmacher Institute’s August 2011 report, 45% of women having abortions have never been married and are not cohabiting, so that would mean that the remaining 55% are MARRIED. Mothers are the highest demographic having abortions, with married women right behind them and one presumes there is an overlap in the categories of ‘married” and “mother.” In 2008, 61% of women having abortions were already mothers. Since the initial economic downturn in 2008 through today, that figure jumped to 72% and is still rising. (Guttmacher Institute, NAF)

Once you are pregnant, there are two separate human entities sharing the one body.

BZZZZ, FAIL, I see you are having more Trouble With Facts. A separate human entity would not require the sharing of one body. That circumstance more aptly describes a “host/parasite” relationship.
julie-watkins

at about 9:45. Good warnings about “poisoning” the discussion, and effect on free speech.
crowepps

I’ll watch for it –
teenytiny

BZZZZ, FAIL, I see you are having more Trouble With Facts. A separate human entity would not require the sharing of one body. That circumstance more aptly describes a “host/parasite” relationship.

I always find it shocking the hostile terms used by the PC movement to describe a pregnancy. I can not imagine you going up to a pregnant woman, and congratulating her on being a ‘host’ to the ‘parasite’ growing inside her. I can appreciate we share different views on ethics, morals, politics, etc. but science is SCIENCE.

My question to you: IN YOUR OPINION, if it is not a separate human being, at what point does this ‘parasite’ become a ‘baby?’ Because if you can find me a biology textbook that states the fetus (translation: ‘little one’) is anything but a developing human being, I will quite possibly change my views on abortion. It is a ‘developing’ human person, just like an infant is ‘developing,’ just like I am still ‘developing’ (<-yes I am prepared for the sarcastic comments someone is going to make about this last one). It is impossible to be a ‘parasite’ one day, and become a ‘human being’ the next, simply by passing through a birth canal. So at what point is it, then, when it magically becomes something worthy enough NOT to destroy?

Even the Mayo clinic uses the term ‘baby:’

Near the end of the first trimester, you may be able to hear your baby’s heartbeat with a small device that bounces sound waves off your baby’s heart.

as does WebMD:

Frequent visits with your healthcare provider allow you to follow the progress of your baby’s development.

as does  Johns Hopkins:

Additional prenatal care may be necessary if there are any preexisting medical conditions (i.e., diabetes) present in the mother and/or if complications arise while carrying the baby to term.

As does: United States Health and Human Services:

Prenatal care can help keep you and your baby healthy.

***************************************************************************************************************

In regards to PSA not being a real issue:

Here is information (from a pro-choice site) providing women instructions on how to self-induce an abortion through the use of the drug misoprostol:

“…you might be able to find a sac in the blood and it is possible that you might see the embryo. With a pregnancy of 8 or 9 weeks, the embryo is about 2, 5 cm. This can be distressing.It is best to flush everything down the toilet or to wrap the sanitary pads in a plastic bag and throw them away.”

- info on what to expect when taking the drug misoprostol to induce your abortion. Source: http://pregnancyabortion.b logspot.com/

“You might see the embryo… this can be distressing” I almost vomited in my mouth when I read this. Please keep in mind this is from a pro-abortion blog, providing directions for taking the drug. Why do you think they warn seeing the fetus might be distressing? Because it looks like a freaking tiny human! Because it is a tiny human! How are we doing this to our women, our bodies, our babies?

I challenge any woman who is so adamantly pro-choice to actually witness an abortion procedure and then tell me that you believe this is a positive, responsible choice for women. (And no, I am not talking about The Silent Scream, or anything that you will automatically deem pro life propaganda. I am talking about actual documented medical footage that has been legally obtained.)
It is heart wrenching to see see a tiny human, being ripped out of its mothers body; It is aggressive, and violent, and violating. And if we can’t stomach watching it, how can we condone – and promote – doing it… 3000 times + a day?!!

In response to @beenthere72, that I am:

comparing women who have abortions to Hitler

I do not, DO NOT believe that women are the ones who should be blamed. We are all equally responsible as a society for this genocide – we have allowed it, defended it and funded it.
We have LIED about what abortion really is by using nice slogans and ignoring/distorting medical facts. I firmly believe that NO WOMAN, no mother who was actually aware of the truth of abortion – what really happens during this procedure – could ever EVER choose this for her body or her child. We have been fed the same lies over and over again: that this is our right, our choice, our bodies, the most responsible option, a loving decision, blah blah blah slogan slogan slogan lie lie lies. The vast majority of women that go in for abortions are completely uninformed, and rush in feeling like this is their ONLY choice. And we are applauding ourselves for being so liberal-minded, so forward thinking, so powerful as women to be able to make this choice and exercise our ‘RIGHT.’

So… do I think that changing the laws and criminalizing these women is the answer? NO. They are the victims in this just as much as their aborted children are. I don’t believe in changing laws – I believe in changing the hearts of the people - good people, just like you – who, for whatever reason… have hearts that have been hardened towards this issue.

I do not describe myself as pro-life or anti-choice. I am someone that believes (like Dr. Paul) that every human person should have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness… and you can’t have anything without the right to life first). Our generation has a reckless attitude towards abortion, and this ‘right’ is being abused. But this is slowly changing… people are beginning to wake up, see the science, see the numbers, realize that over 50 million Americans have been aborted since Roe v Wade – FIFTY MILLION. It is unacceptable and unconscionable.

I can only hope that in my lifetime we see the end to abortion – not resulting from government laws or restrictions placed on women or through ‘forced-birthing’ as you like to call it.   I hope abortion will become an unthinkable option because the women of the next generation will CHOOSE to give life to their children. A loving, responsible, and completely INFORMED CHOICE made by women completely on their own accord.

Lastly, in response to @Forced Bith Is Rape,

~ I am an atheist and I believe abortion and birth control should be free and legal the world over. One of the many reasons is because I was sexually abused as a child, and I had a mother who did not love me. My childhood was hell because my mother did not value me and could not take care of me. I spent my teenage years screaming at my mother telling her I wish she had aborted me, she told me she wished her mother had aborted her.

It broke my heart to read your testimony. I am really sorry you have had such terrible things happen to you in your life. No child deserves to feel that way – I in no way want to trivialize your experiences. That being said… what do you want me to say in response? That I think/wish you should have been aborted? Because I don’t believe that at all! Despite having a terrible childhood… you are still living, breathing, and obviously full of passion for life (judging from the enthusiasm in your writing while you vehemently attacked my position :))… I imagine that you have many friends and co-workers and neighbors that love and care about you, and are glad you were born! So, no I don’t wish or think that you – or any other child who may have a difficult life ahead – should be aborted.

WHO ARE WE to judge the value of ANY HUMAN LIFE?
lindzanne

Of all the ridiculous crap you have posted so far, I am finally motivated to reply to this:

I firmly believe that NO WOMAN, no mother who was actually aware of the truth of abortion – what really happens during this procedure – could ever EVER choose this for her body or her child.

How dare you patronize me and other women by assuming we don’t know EXACTLY what was going on during our abortion procedures, before and after our choices and who are most definitely NOT:

the victims in this just as much as their aborted children are.

Don’t coopt my experience to support your incredibly misinformed ideas, and, while expressed in a far less vitriolic manner than many I’ve encountered, are still nothing more than a full blown attack on our autonomy, intelligence, and realities thinly veiled by fake science and concern trolling. Don’t exploit and silence our own realities to hold up your tenuous framework of mysogony and shaming.
ch

It is impossible to be a ‘parasite’ one day, and become a ‘human being’ the next, simply by passing through a birth canal.

Um, really? You just answered your own question. That’s exactly it, because after BIRTH the one human entity actually SEPARATES from the other and does not require the life support system of the other human entity.

…if you can find me a biology textbook that states the fetus (translation: ‘little one’) is anything but a developing human being, I will quite possibly change my views on abortion. It is a ‘developing’ human person, just like an infant is ‘developing,’ just like I am still ‘developing’ (<-yes I am prepared for the sarcastic comments someone is going to make about this last one).

Foul! Can’t move the goalpost. Never said it wasn’t a developing human being. And, ah, a fetus isn’t an infant. This might help you remember: a fetus is in utero (pregnant) and an infant is not (born). See? Easy peasy. Oh, and fetus does not translate into “little one”. You might want to check your Latin.

“You might see the embryo… this can be distressing” I almost vomited in my mouth when I read this. Please keep in mind this is from a pro-abortion blog, providing directions for taking the drug. Why do you think they warn seeing the fetus might be distressing?

And the goalposts moved again! If a pregnancy is at the fetal stage, you cannot have a medical abortion. But don’t let the facts deter you. Y’all never do anyway.

I challenge any woman who is so adamantly pro-choice to actually witness an abortion procedure and then tell me that you believe this is a positive, responsible choice for women.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!!! I believe this is a positive, responsible choice for women if it is THEIR CHOICE (fixed that for ya). Now, what?

Really, Silent Scream? I’m not even wasting the space on that old canard but if I would suggest “Lake of Fire” if you want to see a BALANCED treatment of abortion. It contains “…actual documented medical footage that has been legally obtained.” Netflix has it.

As for the rest of your response, well, I’ll chalk that up to the fact that you were posting at 3:30 am and since you’re a student, I’m sure you were quite tired hence the circular, illogical reasoning. Also, read some of the archives, many others have more eloquently discounted those (quite tired) arguments.

Now, dance!
person-0

I always find it shocking the hostile terms used by the PC movement to describe a pregnancy.

Please educate yourself on the nature of a parasitic relationship. While a fetus is not “a parasite” per se, the relationship is certainly parastic in nature. Note the difference between a noun and an adjective.

So at what point is it, then, when it magically becomes something worthy enough NOT to destroy?

The answer will vary from woman to woman. The majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, so I’m going to guess that most women figure it out pretty quickly.

Here is information (from a pro-choice site) providing women instructions on how to self-induce an abortion through the use of the drug misoprostol:

Really? This is a pathetic source. Someone’s personal blog is where you’re looking for medical advice? Please learn to use the internet properly.

I challenge any woman who is so adamantly pro-choice to actually witness an abortion procedure and then tell me that you believe this is a positive, responsible choice for women.

You do understand that women are present when they are having an abortion, don’t you? Have you considered the number of women who post here who have aborted? They have witnessed the whole thing and haven’t changed their beliefs. A surgical abortion is not all that different from a regular GYN checkup, your emotional rhetoric notwithstanding. Abortion has been going on since ancient women figured out how and it will continue as long as women have unwanted pregnancies. They make an informed choice and it’s incredibly patronizing and insulting to imply that women just don’t know any better. They are not victims at all. It is you who needs to wake up and realize that women know exactly what they’re doing and why and your opinion/judgment is irrelevant.
forced-birth-rape

~ Pro-lifers do a very good job of demeaning people who have experienced a holocaust, genocide.

People in a holocaust, or genocide have physical and emotional feelings. Embryos and fetuses do not!

People in a holocaust or genocide know someone is coming to torture them, rape them, kill them, and their loved ones.

A persons senses magnify experiences, sight, sound, and scent. Hearing and seeing your children cry as they are dragged away from you. The scent, sound, and sight of concentration camps, of WAR. Embryos or fetuses do not appreciate that HELL.

A fetus cannot be raped.

A fetus does not know the dread and fear of an invading rapist enemy army. Many children in Africa sure do. ~

~ Inform your self on genocide

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/12/48-women-raped-hour-congo

http://www.genocideintervention.net/educate/crisis/democratic_republic_of_congo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Bosnian_War

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/women-war-and-peace/features/i-came-to-testify/

Oh that is right pro-lifers do not give a tiny damn about rape. ~

~ Pro-lifers hurt and demean me as a woman, as a rape victim, as someone who was raped as a little girl. Every time I see something pro-life I feel used and demeaned. ~

~ I have every right to attack your unasked for opinion about my life, and body. Pro-lifers practice consistent sexual sadomasochistic harassment on abused women and raped little girls. ~

~ There is not enough physical and emotional pain to befall women and little girls to satisfy pro-lifers. ~

~ You do not give a tiny shit about me, or my mother. No, you do not care that I was a child used for sex. No pro-lifer does, that is what I have learned from all of you. As someone who grew up in perversion and sexual terrorism, I consider rapist, pimps, and pro-forced birthers to be three peas in the same pod. You agree that a woman should give birth to a child that is going to spend the next ten years of the child’s life being raped. How easy for you. ~

~ I am well aware of the fact that pro-lifers would sign children up to spend their childhoods being sexually terrorized, like me and my cousins, for the sole purpose to hurt and subjugate women and little girls. ~

~ I am very passionate about making sure another women never has the life my mother had and another little girl never has a childhood like mine. My father beat my teenage mother in the face because I was crying as a sick baby, my teenage mothers face gushed blood. I have never been able to sleep the whole night through, I have nightmares, and I am very afraid of men. I wish my mother had saved herself and me, by aborting me. ~

~ My cousin committed suicide two years ago, he had been used as a child sex toy, if his vile mother was not going to protect him she should have aborted him. He was in chronic pain when he killed himself. ~

~ There is nothing wrong with abortion, it should be free and legal the world over. ~