Basic Equality for Women–Denied


The old saw that all politics is local is gaining traction as state legislators pass law after law violating women’s constitutional rights to privacy and reproductive choice. According to a recent article in AlterNet, 916 new restrictive laws were introduced by state legislators in the first quarter of 2011. The laws are the most creative, restrictive laws passed since Roe vs Wade became law of the land. 

The common core is:

  • The Gestational limits on abortion- they have plucked 20 weeks as the standard though viability is not assured at that time.
  • Wait time – often women are subjected to (often medically inaccurate) propaganda by religious zealots while required to wait for their procedure.
  • Mandatory ultrasounds
  • Curtailing insurance coverage in state exchanges
  • Mandatory visits to crisis pregnancy centers

The common denominator is to render abortion impossible. The goal is to render women powerless.

The reverberations from Nebraska’s 20 weeks limit on abortion were felt when Danielle Deaver was forced to continue a pregnancy with a nonviable fetus. Her family had to suffer watching their baby die.  When lawmakers subvert both a legal procedure and medical science, it is time for them to leave the legislatures. Medical privacy and medical conditions are rights that are guaranteed to women as well as men. Similar scenarios can be expected to occur as more women have medical problems beyond 20 weeks.

South Dakota has the unique distinction of introducing and passing the most restrictive laws regarding wait time and pregnancy crisis centers.  Beginning in July, a woman must wait 72 hours after consulting with a physician about an abortion. She also has to visit a registered pregnancy crisis center and listen to these volunteer, non-certified, non-medical personnel give incorrect information about abortions.  These clinics are not subject to privacy laws so a woman’s medical record is no longer private.  She also has to be read a statement written by the legislators about abortion.

Abortion is difficult enough without these new laws. There is one clinic in the state that has an abortion provider flown in once a week. How the women are to meet with the provider, wait 72 hours, meet with the pregnancy crisis center and have the procedure in a timely fashion has not been worked out.  Most of the women are financially unable to pay for hotels or childcare so this is an undue financial burden.  Additionally, the pregnancy crisis centers have not signed on to participate in this new program, so it is unclear if the women will be denied abortions because no centers are involved. Could this be any worse?  This is a state where voters have twice voted not to ban abortion, but the legislature believes it knows better.

The ultrasound ploy is a favorite of many states. Women are forced to undergo a procedure that they do not want, and which is many times not medically necessary. Depending on the state, they must either watch the ultrasound or listen to a graphic description.  Women, many of whom have limited funds, must also pay for this state-mandated procedure. Isn’t there an argument by conservatives about mandatory payments? Hmmm, just not for women when they have abortions.

Insurance is the latest weapon in the war on women’s health in both the states and the federal government. In the US House, HR 3 passed with unanimous consent of the Republicans. This bill would tax insurance plans that cover abortions. It would tax health credits. It would tax people who use them. It would allow the IRS to audit a woman’s abortion. This is all from the no tax, no government in private affairs folks. They will not tax oil companies, but women’s health is fair game.

In the states there is an attempt to restrict abortion coverage in state exchanges. The degree varies but 23 states have already considered such legislation.

While all these laws are aimed at overturning Roe vs Wade, there is the additional attack on the born children. Programs for nutritional programs and child health care are being slashed. Contraception is no longer covered by some states. How does this promote a culture of life?

The Republican-controlled House is railing against the deficit and slashing social programs while refusing to raise taxes.  But its microfocus is on depriving women of their basic equality – the right to privacy, the right to control their own lives and the right to make their own decisions without help from the government.  Contribute your energy and money to electing pro-choice legislators.  The attacks will continue until women mobilize in town halls, in voting booths and in the halls of Congress.

Gail Yamner

JAC President

originally posted at JACblog!

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  • deanna

    Gail,

       Being a pro-life activist who has followed  politics closely for many years, let me correct some of the things that you said in your article that are incorrect.

    “The common denominator is to render abortion impossible. The goal is to render women powerless”

    You make the mistake that there is some sort of secret, hidden agenda to “render” women anything. No, the goal is and has been to protect the lives of innocent babies who are slaughtered. I am very aware that the pro-abortion propaganda will say they are not “babies” only potential babies, so let me add this link to quotes from several well known abortion doctors openly admitting in their own words,documented, that they are killing a baby   http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25  and this one http://www.clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=3

     

    Also, you said, “The Republican-controlled House is railing against the deficit and slashing social programs while refusing to raise taxes.  But its microfocus is on depriving women of their basic equality – the right to privacy, the right to control their own lives and the right to make their own decisions without help from the government. “

    I would like to ask you a question, “Why do you demand that the government stay out of your life when it comes to abortion but then you also demand that the government give Planned Parenthood 330 Million dollars per year to pay the abortion giants bills? Is it that you want it both ways? Stay out of our business but pay for our business? Sounds like hypocrisy to me! 

    The reality is that what you do want is both. You want us taxpayers to pay for the killing but keep our mouths shut about the fact that we don’t like it. That’s never going to happen because we see it as being morally wrong and even if our tax dollars didn’t pay for it we would never shut up anyway because abortion is taking the life of a child,(the abortion doctors said it themselves) so why would we shut up?

    Also, you get upset that we want to limit the gestational age of abortions. Why wouldn’t we try to limit them? A 21 week baby can and does often live outside the womb, they can feel pain, they are fully “human”. What in the world makes you think that we will ever stop trying to defend these babies? Why do you think the sovereignty of your womb trumps this babies right to not be dismembered with it’s head crushed and it’s brains sucked out?

    I have a challenge for you; Before you fight to kill these at least know what you are killing. Go look at some pictures of 21 week aborted babies, then come say you have a right murder it! If you can look at those pictures and then come back and still say you have the right then you are as hard hearted of a beast as they come. I’m sorry to be so blunt but the reality is that you seem to worship your “right” to your body all the while pushing this little persons body out of your mind. If you are going to be pro-abortion at least be it in truth, knowing and admitting exactly what you are advocating. 

    Abortion provider Judith Arcana is quoted saying the following:
    “It is morally and ethically wrong to do abortions without acknowledging what it means to do them. I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.”
    Judith Arcana “Feminist Politics and Abortion in the US” Pro-Choice Forum (Psychology and Reproductive Choice) Sponsored by The Society for the Psychology of Women

     

    Judith admits what she is doing. We as pro-lifers don’t think it is morally acceptable for her to do that. It is simple. You’re article complicates the argument and takes it into a realm where it doesn’t belong. It’s about the dead babies.

    http://www.shoutingitloud.com

     

     

  • julie-watkins

    While all these laws are aimed at overturning Roe vs Wade, there is the additional attack on the born children. Programs for nutritional programs and child health care are being slashed. Contraception is no longer covered by some states. How does this promote a culture of life?

    The pro-life fanatics are being used by the ruling class to help the bottom line: more poor people = more desperate workers who won’t make trouble, … plus more cannon & prison fodder down the line, which will be more profit for MIC & PIC.

  • julie-watkins

     It’s about the dead babies

    It’s not a “baby” until it’s made out of the woman’s flesh and blood, it not a trivial lose of resources and has many medical risks (especially if medical care isn’t locally available or to expensive). Most 20+ week fetuses that are aborted are because a wanted pregnancy went wrong and there are medical problems with the womn or the fetus. Looking at pictures of fetus (of whatever week) won’t tell me the story of what medical problems there might be, nor the financial situation of the woman & her family.

    I always get boggled at people who obviously feel that a pregnant woman/girl not accepting an unwanted pregnancy is So Much More a moal problem than the systemic sexism of Nature and the sexism & classism and sexism of society. It’s not my fault I was born a fertile female; human biology is not my fault; I didn’t want to be pregnant (that’s why I had an IUD). When it failed I chose not to give a gift of life. The only way society can be less sexist/classist than it inherantly is (considering human biology) is that [attempting to] give life is considered a gift not an obligation.

    I’ve read the rest of your points, but I’m most interested in why you think a pregnant womans oligation (according to you) is so much more important than the sexism/classism inherant in the system.

  • deanna

    Um…NO,…..Julie…..Gail, like most pro-abortion propaganda writers, wants to tie two unconnected issues together in order to take the focus off the real issue, which is dead babies. As a “pro-life fanatic” I can tell you first hand that what I wanted more than anything was for the 330 million dollars of tax money given to Planned Parenthood to be given to non abortion providing community health centers in order to truly help the poor. But, the pro-abortion propaganda along with Denise Richards comfy relationship with the president won out and instead of the true poor being helped Ms. Richards gets to pad her pocket with a salary of almost $400,000 per year and Planned Parenthood gets to keep killing the kids all in the name of helping the poor. You guys are brain washed by your own propaganda. 

    This “ruling class” that you speak of is the Obama administration. They are in charge, are they not? Is he not the one that gave the big banks 73 BILLION dollars? Is he not the one that wants to raise taxes on small businesses which will result in lost jobs? Is he not the one who insisted on Planned Parenthod being funded even if it meant that the military wouldn’t get paid? All of these things lead to more “poor”people! You fool yourself if you think this is the work of “pro-life fanatics” . It is the work of candidates who care very little about anything except special interest groups. Go do some investigations and you will see that a butt load of tax money goes to pork projects and special interest groups that are the pets of BOTH democrats and republicans with your beloved Obama being at the top of the pork pile. As I said before if you guys are going to be pro-abortion at least tell the truth about it and stop trying to mix up the issues to make yourselves feel better.

    http://www.shoutingitloud.com

  • reproductivefreedomfighter

    Denise Richards is a TV and movie star.  I think you mean Cecile Richards.  And yeah, she gets paid for her job.  Scandalous! 

     

    No, actually, it was the republicans who didn’t want to pay the military, just so they could push their anti-Planned Parenthood crap.  Talk about special interest groups.  

     

    You, Deanna, do not know what is best for others.  You only know what’s best for you–which is all you can know.  We all know and admit abortion is ending a life.  We care more about the life of the one in the situation who is already born and sentient, as would any sane person, as opposed to a fetus who cannot survive outside the uterus.  (20 week old children would certainly feel pain, but not a 20 week old fetus–look, I’m a scientist too!)  Most importantly, we TRUST WOMEN to make their own decisions on a case by base basis.  Can you say you trust women to make their own decisions?  Or do you, Deanna, think you’re better equipped to make a decision about my own body than I am?

     

     

  • deanna

    Sorry Julie but thats not correct either here are links to quotes from abortion providers who say openly that they are killing BABIES  http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25

    http://www.clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=3

    Also,  Abortion provider Judith Arcana is quoted saying the following:

    “It is morally and ethically wrong to do abortions without acknowledging what it means to do them. I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.”
    Judith Arcana “Feminist Politics and Abortion in the US” Pro-Choice Forum (Psychology and Reproductive Choice) Sponsored by The Society for the Psychology of Women

    You said, “It’s not a “baby” until it’s made out of the woman’s flesh and blood” well, lets see….what is it then if it’s not made of a womans flesh and blood?It’s not a turtle or a hamster in there? If it’s not made of her flesh and blood then what is it? 

    Also. “Most 20+ week fetuses that are aborted are because a wanted pregnancy went wrong and there are medical problems with the womn or the fetus. Looking at pictures of fetus (of whatever week) won’t tell me the story of what medical problems there might be, nor the financial situation of the woman & her familyyou said ”  Since when does a “financial situation” justify murder? And what is your proof that ‘most” of these BABIES are aborted because of medical problems? More propaganda!

    Also, your rant on sexism makes no sense to what we are discussing. To answer your question of “why you think a pregnant womans oligation (according to you) is so much more important than the sexism/classism inherant in the system”

     

    I don’t think that ANYTHING trumpsa persons right to not be dismembered and have their skull crushed and their brains sucked out! Do YOU?

     


     


     

  • julie-watkins

    Deanna wrote: You fool yourself if you think this is the work of “pro-life fanatics”

    That’s not what I said.

    Julie wrote: The pro-life fanatics are being used

    “being used” doesn’t mean pro-life fanatics are doing all the work, they’re unknowinly helping with one of the ruling class’s goals.

    The banksters own nearly everything, and what I pay in taxes I’m paying protection money. I can get one cookie (or a part of a cookie) as long as I pay the rest as protection money. The Banksters aren’t going to let anyone as important as “president” get elected without being sure that person will cooperate & pay the protection money. Obama doesn’t take on any fight, if he can help it, that he doesn’t think he’s going to win. The only way anything is going to change is though mass grass roots action. The only reason why Roosevelt was able to make the changes he did was there was mass action behind it.

    … and this is getting far from the point of the article above, with is about “Basic Equality for Women”, which is about (to me) class warfare, and I would say all these attacks on women’s equity is being a substitute for being a war on poor people in general (both men and women). It’s just easier to attack poor men through poor women.

  • beenthere72

    You guys are brain washed by your own propaganda.

     

    Look in a mirror lately? 

     

    non abortion providing community health centers

     

    In many communities, this is Planned Parenthood.    Not all Planned Parenthoods perform abortions.

     

    And the rest of your post?   Sounds like YOU’RE the one attempting to connect unconnected issues.  

     

    It saddens me when a woman, assuming you are one and not just using a woman’s name to protect your true identity, completely ignores other women in the abortion equation.   

     

     

  • deanna

    reproductivefreedomfighter

    Yes, I did mean Cecile Richards. thank you.

    The problem is that she gets paid an extraordinary amount of money out of my taxes! I have a right to complain about that just as you would if your tax money were going to pro-life organizations. I think you can agree that this is a true statement.

    Also, you said, “You know what is best for others”. Well, I guessin a way you caould say that that is a true statement. I know that it is best for babies that they not have their arms and legs pulled off and their heads crushed and theirbrains sucked out. As I said before that trumps any and all arguments that you guys can ever come up with. It is my stand! Your body being holy and sovereign does not trump it, nor does your sexual freedom, nor does anything else you can think up.

    You said you” trust women” to make the right choice. Well, apparently your trust has been misplaced because they have chosen to slice up millions of unborn children. Sometimes people cannot be trusted to make the right choice. Thats why we have prisons.


  • deanna

    Yes, I am a woman, here is a link to my blog as proof http://www.shoutingitloud.com

    And I am not ignoring women in the abortion equation. I find it very sad what they go through but as I said before, what they go through does not trump babies having their arms and legs torn off and their skull crushed and their brains sucked out. It never will!

  • beenthere72

    You do realize that the majority of abortions are nothing like what happened at Dr. Gosnell’s clinic, don’t you?

  • colleen

    A link to your blog is proof of nothing besides the fact that you’re here to spam and troll.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ You wanted the money to go to the pro-forced-birth, child-raping-catholic-church. ~

  • colleen

    The phrase “crush the baby’s skull, suck his brains out and tear his limbs off” isn’t intended to be factually correct. It’s what taxpayers pay otherwise unemployable women to say to convince other, younger, impressionable women to sacrifice any hope of a decent life for themselves. But it’s OK because the women saying it are “very sad” about what happens to the pregnant women.

  • beenthere72

    OK, I’ve read your bio and what you’ve done in your own family is very commendable, but it’s still wrong to force your idea of morality and your G-d on others.    You can’t begin to know every woman and girl’s situation.    Forcing all females to carry all pregnancies to term is abusive.    Those that have abortions the way you describe are doing so for very serious reasons, not because they suddenly changed their mind.   Those of us that have abortions do so not only because we don’t want to have babies, but because we do not want to be pregnant.      If we don’t want to be pregnant, we take care of it as soon as possible, and all this ridiculous legislation makes that harder to do.    And defunding Planned Parenthood makes it harder for women and girls to PREVENT pregnancy, for that is the majority of their business and what that funding funds (don’t try to tell me that’s more propoganda – it’s truth).  

     

    As for your complaint about tax payer money paying Cecile’s salary, I’d rather not have my taxes paying for anti-women Rethuglicans (and the few Democrats) paying their salaries either, but what can I do?

  • beenthere72

    “not intended to be a factual statement”  – like 98% of Planned Parenthoods abortion business.  Mua ha ha ha. 

  • deanna

    Why would you ever think that? I’m not Catholic and that has nothing to do with what I said.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Women and little girls, raped women and raped little girls, do not have to have their bodies used against their will, be forced to have something or someone in their bodies against their will, or be forced to dread and worry of having extreme unwanted vaginal pain against their will, or be forced into having extreme vaginal pain against their will, to give the sadomasochistic, vagina-pain-mongering, misogynistic-christians their woman and little girl genital torturing pleasure. ~

    ~ I know as a former Christian and rape survivor that forcing girls and women’s bodies and genitals into being used and abused against their will is a form of sex slavery. And as someone who grew up with republican Christians I can say I am not at all surprised these female torturing crhistians who are obsessed with female submission are doing this, they have never, and will never care anything about women and little girls, or raped women and raped little girls, females are nothing but breeding chattel to them. ~

    ~ Girls and women always have a right to say “NO” when their vaginas are involved, even though Christians want the right to own, dictate, and torture every vagina on the planet at their Christian-misogynistic whims. ~

    ~ No one has the right to live if it will cause a woman or little girl extreme vaginal pain and emotional agony against her will, women and girls vaginas should never be used and abused against their will, even if it makes the Christians all hot and bothered in a sexually sadistic way. ~

    ~ I do not have the right to live if it will cause another women extreme vaginal pain against her will. I would not want to do that to another women against her will to save my life. ~

    ~ I do not want to pay for the bible-belt-boys to go to war to prove their Christian manhood’s, but I do. Fetuses are being killed in Iraq but if the republicans are getting oil lets kill fetuses, only lets not kill fetuses when it will spare a women, little girl, raped woman, or raped little girl physical, emotional, and vaginal pain. ~

  • deanna

    You can read the actual quotes fromabortionists here describing that exact thing. So, it sin’tmeant to do anything except tell the truth:

    http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25

  • deanna

    sorry, I meant say “isn’t meant”

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Are you a pro-forced birth baptist? ~

     

    http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

     

    TIME ranks Southern Baptists’ rejection of sex-offender database as a top “underreported” news story of 2008

     

    Pro-lifers do not have a problem with raping all these kids they want born.

  • prochoiceferret

    You make the mistake that there is some sort of secret, hidden agenda to “render” women anything. No, the goal is and has been to protect the lives of innocent babies who are slaughtered.

     

    Oh, so conservatives support restrictions on gun sales and ownership, to help prevent the shooting deaths of young children in urban areas?

     

    I am very aware that the pro-abortion propaganda will say they are not “babies” only potential babies, so let me add this link to quotes from several well known abortion doctors openly admitting in their own words,documented, that they are killing a baby

     

    I’m sure that they feel a pre-viable fetus is a “baby.” Others don’t. Technically, it’s not a baby until it’s born. Do you refer to your vulva as your “vagina,” by any chance?

     

    I would like to ask you a question, “Why do you demand that the government stay out of your life when it comes to abortion but then you also demand that the government give Planned Parenthood 330 Million dollars per year to pay the abortion giants bills? Is it that you want it both ways? Stay out of our business but pay for our business? Sounds like hypocrisy to me!

     

    Nope, it sounds like good public policy. Why on Earth would you want poor men and women not to be able to receive reproductive health care and contraception, the majority of PP’s business? Do you cheer when someone gets an STD or an unwanted pregnancy, or something?

     

    The reality is that what you do want is both. You want us taxpayers to pay for the killing but keep our mouths shut about the fact that we don’t like it. That’s never going to happen because we see it as being morally wrong and even if our tax dollars didn’t pay for it we would never shut up anyway because abortion is taking the life of a child,(the abortion doctors said it themselves) so why would we shut up?

     

    Oh, I’m sorry, for a moment I thought you were talking about the military there. You might want to speak up on that, by the way, I can’t hear you from where I’m sitting.

     

    Also, you get upset that we want to limit the gestational age of abortions. Why wouldn’t we try to limit them? A 21 week baby can and does often live outside the womb, they can feel pain, they are fully “human”. What in the world makes you think that we will ever stop trying to defend these babies? Why do you think the sovereignty of your womb trumps this babies right to not be dismembered with it’s head crushed and it’s brains sucked out?

     

    Um… do you know why abortions at 21 weeks are performed?

     

    I have a challenge for you; Before you fight to kill these at least know what you are killing. Go look at some pictures of 21 week aborted babies, then come say you have a right murder it! If you can look at those pictures and then come back and still say you have the right then you are as hard hearted of a beast as they come.

     

    How about mothers with happy, healthy children, who are pro-choice? How hard do you suppose their hearts are?

     

    I’m sorry to be so blunt but the reality is that you seem to worship your “right” to your body all the while pushing this little persons body out of your mind. If you are going to be pro-abortion at least be it in truth, knowing and admitting exactly what you are advocating.

     

    Yes, we are advocating for women’s rights. I’m sorry that you feel that individual rights are superfluous and unnecessary. Perhaps you may want to relocate to China—they definitely don’t “worship” these kinds of rights over there.

     

    Judith admits what she is doing.

     

    Supporting a woman’s right to choose, while having her own view on the moral implications of that?

     

    We as pro-lifers don’t think it is morally acceptable for her to do that. It is simple. You’re article complicates the argument and takes it into a realm where it doesn’t belong. It’s about the dead babies.

     

    Too bad it isn’t also about the “dead (stillborn) babies,” “dead men” and “dead women” (from inner-city crime), “undernourished babies,” “babies born into poverty,” “babies in a family whose primary provider is unemployed,” …

  • deanna

    I do realize that yes. But my stand still holds. Babies should be protected. 

    If we put aside all of the anger from both sides and the propaganda that I am sure exists on both sides and all the “reasons” why abortion should be justified then you are left with one thing…a baby that was robbed of it’s life. It makes me very sad to know that. When I see babies laughing and playing with their feet and learning to crawl and my own little grandson and grandaughter kissing me on the cheek before they were even a year old I can’t help but also think of the many that will die that day that will never know love or laughter. I’m not trying to be melodramatic. Just being honest. My stand on abortion doesn’t come from my hatred of women or what they do with thier bodies. It comes from a genuine sympathy for the babies that are dismembred. I know you guys are probably getting tired of hearing me say that but if you will go to the link I posted you will hear the abortionists themselves admit everything I have said.  You can’t be doing yourselves any favors by pretending as if it isn’t a baby or pretending as if your body is more important than that little ones chance to live. I can’t understand how we as a nation have gotten to the point where mothers will stand in line to kill their children and lash out at those who say, “don’t kill it, it’s a baby”. Again,not trying to be melodramatic, I really don’t understand how that happened and how we go tto the point that we are so cold hearted and dead inside to think that it is ok. Just my thoughts.

  • prochoiceferret

    Um…NO,…..Julie…..Gail, like most pro-abortion propaganda writers, wants to tie two unconnected issues together in order to take the focus off the real issue, which is dead babies.

     

    Considering that you want to defund the largest reproductive-health and family-planning provider in the U.S., you seem to be a big fan of these.

  • prochoiceferret

    I do realize that yes. But my stand still holds. Babies should be protected.

     

    But not their mothers, apparently.

     

    If we put aside all of the anger from both sides and the propaganda that I am sure exists on both sides and all the “reasons” why abortion should be justified then you are left with one thing…a baby that was robbed of it’s life.

     

    Sorry, but the “baby” (fetus, actually) is not entitled to life support from a woman without her consent. If you want to talk about who’s being robbed, it’s the woman with an unwanted pregnancy who is denied the opportunity to terminate it.

     

    It makes me very sad to know that. When I see babies laughing and playing with their feet and learning to crawl and my own little grandson and grandaughter kissing me on the cheek before they were even a year old I can’t help but also think of the many that will die that day that will never know love or laughter.

     

    Oh, now I understand! You had a great pregnancy, and you can’t possibly imagine why someone would not want to carry a pregnancy to term. So you’re “pro-life” only because you’re ignorant of why women would ever want to choose abortion.

     

    My stand on abortion doesn’t come from my hatred of women or what they do with thier bodies. It comes from a genuine sympathy for the babies that are dismembred.

     

    Also ignorant of how (and when) the majority of abortions are performed. (Hint: It doesn’t involve anything that can be described as “dismemberment.”)

     

    I know you guys are probably getting tired of hearing me say that but if you will go to the link I posted you will hear the abortionists themselves admit everything I have said.

     

    Would those be the ones who still support a woman’s right to an abortion despite their own personal views on the subject, or the ones who changed sides for the same reasons?

     

    You can’t be doing yourselves any favors by pretending as if it isn’t a baby or pretending as if your body is more important than that little ones chance to live.

     

    I’m sure that the women whose health and lives were saved by abortion would disagree.

     

    I can’t understand how we as a nation have gotten to the point where mothers will stand in line to kill their children and lash out at those who say, “don’t kill it, it’s a baby”.

     

    Wait a second, what nation are you in? Here in the U.S., infanticide is a very rare occurrence.

     

    Again,not trying to be melodramatic, I really don’t understand how that happened and how we go tto the point that we are so cold hearted and dead inside to think that it is ok.

     

    You mean, deny women control over their own bodies? I think it has a lot to do with endemic sexism and misogyny in our culture. Feminism is working on this, but the necessary changes won’t happen overnight.

  • prochoiceferret

    Yes, I did mean Cecile Richards. thank you.

    The problem is that she gets paid an extraordinary amount of money out of my taxes! I have a right to complain about that just as you would if your tax money were going to pro-life organizations. I think you can agree that this is a true statement.

     

    Oh, surely. And as a result, you’re agitating to defund Cecile Richards (as opposed to just using her salary as an excuse to defund all of Planned Parenthood, which would be pretty darn disingenuous). I don’t think you would agree that this is a true statement.

  • julie-watkins

    I’ll pick one.

    And what is your proof that ‘most” of these BABIES are aborted because of medical problems? More propaganda!

    An ethical doctor would not do a late abortion — what you’re describing — without good medical reason. That’s not propaganda. Are you listening to propaganda that misrepresents the reasons for late abortions?

    If you want to be sure I reply to the question you most want answered, please clearly lable or only ask one question.

     

  • broodstock

    Actually, pro-life organizations do get my tax money – over $60 million as of 2006 alone.  They are called crisis pregnancy centers which receive funds for providing “family planning services” – meaning: abstinence education – and that’s fine.  What’s ludicrous is that they are allowed to proliferate unfounded, biased, over-exaggerated and conflated, obviously false information that is not “informational” at all but primarily scare-tactics and fear-mongering.  They’re like play-ground bullies: do it my way, or I’m gonna punch your face.

     

     

  • colleen

    deanna,

     

    That was the overwrought and hysterical language used by  the ‘pro-life movement to justify banning a procedure. Even when what you folks call ‘partial birth abortion’ was a legal procedure your overwrought phrase does not describe the overwhelming majority of abortions. The phrase used to describe most abortions is ‘vacuming out the contents of your (or her) womb’.

    ‘Pro-life’ sites aren’t credible cites anymore than George Will’s op-eds are.

  • deanna

    Actually Julie there are many unethical doctors in the abortion industry. In my state you can get an abortion on demand up to 24 weeks. They do a lot of these for no other reason than the mother wants it. Sadly, it is this way in other states as well, which is one of the issues that the author of this article was complaining about, the fact that pro-life politicians want to ban these.

  • deanna

    beenthere@ You asked me why I try to force my idea of morality an dmy God on others. Not once during this conversation did I mention God. I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ but even if I didn’t I would still say that abortion is immmoral. To me it is a matter of being human. Human beings are supposed to care for one another, not dispose of each other because we want to. Also, You said “Those that have abortions the way you describe are doing so for very serious reasons, not because they suddenly changed their mind.” Statements of abortionists, statements that are documented say otherwise. 

  • deanna

    No, I’m not baptist either. Frankly, I don’t see what difference that makes. If I weren’t a Christian at all I would still be pro-life because my religious affiliation has nothing to do with my argument which is, babies (the abortionists admit they are babies http://www.clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=3 and http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25 and yes to whomever asked me that question before these are mostly abortionists who are still in the business or were in the business when they were quoted.) are being slaughtered and it shouldn’t be that way.

  • deanna

    They are also by their own admission the largest abortion provider in the USA. So, yes, for that reason I want to defund them and give the money they recieve to legit agencies who do not have an underlying agends to make money off of abortions.

  • julie-watkins

    no other reason than the mother wants it.

    If it’s “on demand”, as you say, then the woman wouldn’t have waited until 24 weeks. Did the pregnant women tell you why they aborted or are you making assumptions? A reason you don’t agree with doesn’t mean the reason is solely “she wants to”. “She wants to” is a claim of bodily soverignty, and her reasons aren’t your concern. It’s between her and her doctor and her chosen advisors. Very few abortions happen late, the vast majority are early, soon after the woman discovered she’s pregnant. (That’s what happened to me: my IUD failed & I got a pregnancy test after I missed my period.)

    I said “ethical” doctor, I don’t include back-alley. When protester harrassment caused abortions to be pushed out into clinics, that eliminated a lot of the possible oversight. Gosnell was an exception, not common. Up in Canada there aren’t abortion laws & they don’t have the scandels that happen in USA. Medical standards are sufficient.

  • deanna

    What I think that I am equipped to do is say exactly what I have said. That abortion murders innocent babies, that my tax money shouldn’t pay for it and that it shouldn’t be done at all because it is immoral for humans to kill the innocents among them for their own benefit.

  • prochoiceferret

    I believe in Jesus Christ but even if I didn’t I would still say that abortion is immmoral.

     

    Great! So don’t have one. I think eating veal is immoral, too, so I don’t eat it.

     

    To me it is a matter of being human. Human beings are supposed to care for one another, not dispose of each other because we want to.

     

    You might want to start caring about pregnant women who don’t want to be pregnant, then.

     

    Also, You said “Those that have abortions the way you describe are doing so for very serious reasons, not because they suddenly changed their mind.” Statements of abortionists, statements that are documented say otherwise.

     

    Really? Then I’m sure you’ll be happy to point us to these documented statements of “abortionists” who state that a majority of the late-term abortions that they performed were the result of the pregnant woman simply “changing her mind.”

  • prochoiceferret

    my argument which is, babies are being slaughtered and it shouldn’t be that way.

     

    Instead, you’d rather have women’s basic human rights be abrogated, and feel that it should be that way.

     

    (the abortionists admit they are babies http://www.clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=3 and http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25 and yes to whomever asked me that question before these are mostly abortionists who are still in the business or were in the business when they were quoted.)

     

    A fetus is not a baby. You can refer to it that way (“my baby!”), but then, you can refer to your vulva as your “vagina,” which is also technically inaccurate. Most people in the medical profession tend to agree that accurate terminology is a good thing, especially when debating a relevant medical topic. Don’t you?

  • prochoiceferret

    They are also by their own admission the largest abortion provider in the USA.

     

    Kind of like how McDonald’s is the largest Dutch apple pie provider in the USA.

     

    So, yes, for that reason I want to defund them and give the money they recieve to legit agencies who do not have an underlying agends to make money off of abortions.

     

    Like Planned Parenthood, which is a non-profit.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Women and girls do not have to have extreme unwanted vaginal pain to please you deanna. ~

  • deanna

    “But not their mothers, apparently.” if “protecting” the mothers means advocating for them to kill their babies then I would have to agree with you on that one.

    “Sorry, but the “baby” (fetus, actually) is not entitled to life support from a woman without her consent. If you want to talk about who’s being robbed, it’s the woman with an unwanted pregnancy who is denied the opportunity to terminate it.” it’s the woman with an unwnted baby who is denied the opportunity to kill it. Let’s call it what it is and stop playing word games. And yes, they should be denied the opportunity to kill it.

    Oh, now I understand! You had a great pregnancy, and you can’t possibly imagine why someone would not want to carry a pregnancy to term. So you’re “pro-life” only because you’re ignorant of why women would ever want to choose abortion.

    Actually that’s not true. I am the mother to eight children, I had two miscarriages (included in that number), Two biological children. I almost died when one was born and had to stay in bed for six months with the next, four are adopted (two international, one teen from the foster system and one special needs child from the foster system (who would have most certainly been aborted given his medical issues) and I myself am a survivor of a missed abortion attempt. I ran a crisis pregnancy center for years where I tried to help women heal emotionally from abortions that they had. So, yes, I know this issue very well from all sides. I can speak with experience both for myself and for my adopted children when I say that in the world of abortion, none of us would be alive if the people making that call had listened to the pro-abortion arguments.

     Would those be the ones who still support a woman’s right to an abortion despite their own personal views on the subject, or the ones who changed sides for the same reasons? No, at the time they were quoted most were still in the business.

    I’m sure that the women whose health and lives were saved by abortion would disagree. I am not talking about true life of the mother issues or true health issues but in reality these make up only a tiny number of the abortionsn done each year. You can’t hang your pro-abortion hat on that one, meaning that it is not a valid argument for the millions aborted each year when there is no health or life risk to the mother. You can’t roll it all up into one argument.

    Wait a second, what nation are you in? Here in the U.S., infanticide is a very rare occurrence. No it’s not. Abortion is just infanticide in the womb. When healthy, viable babies are killed that is infanticide.

    You mean, deny women control over their own bodies? I think it has a lot to do with endemic sexism and misogyny in our culture. Feminism is working on this, but the necessary changes won’t happen overnight.  

    No what I mean is exactly what I said which is : I really don’t understand how that happened and how we got o the point that we are so cold hearted and dead inside to think that it is ok.


  • prochoiceferret

    What I think that I am equipped to do is say exactly what I have said.

     

    Oh, you’re certainly very well-equipped to say it. Loudly, and repeatedly, and with little regard for truth, reason, nuance, let alone the status of women in our society. You’re a natural for this whole anti-choice gig!

  • deanna

    This is simply not true. I ran a crisis pregnancy ceneter for years. I know! Go to my blog http://www.shoutingitloud.com and see if you can find just one example of this : “unfounded, biased, over-exaggerated and conflated, obviously false information that is not “informational” at all but primarily scare-tactics and fear-mongering”.

    My blog has the truth on it . I wonder how many pro-abortionists actually knwo what it is that they are advocating for. They are so fixated on their “rights” that I wonder if they even know. It woul dlbe very sad to advocate for something so stronngly and then get to the end and realize that you were indeed advocating murder. You should know ahead of time.

  • deanna

    Little regard for truth?? Name one thing that I said that was untrue. Just one! I backed up every word I said with documented proof.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ If they are going to use a woman or little girls body against her will, be in her body against her will, and cause a woman or girl vaginal pain against her will they are not innocent. Just keep heaping misery and pain on the female race, it is not like we do not have enough of it. ~

     

  • ack

     I really don’t understand how that happened and how we go tto the point that we are so cold hearted and dead inside to think that it is ok.

     

    Ever since pregnant females realized that they could terminate a pregnancy, they’ve been doing so. The first record we have of abortion was in 1550 BC. With that much history, we didn’t suddenly think it was ok, or become “cold hearted” or “dead inside.” Furthermore, 1/3 of American women have had an abortion by the time they’re 45. I don’t think 1/3 of women are “cold hearted” or “dead inside.” I also don’t think they’re stupid and didn’t know what happens when a pregnancy is terminated.

     

    I think it’s pretty cold hearted to look at a pregnant woman or girl who wants to terminate a pregnancy and say, “I know better than you do.” Because we don’t. She knows her life and her health better than we do. She has the right to make those choices. Considering that pregnancy is a grueling process with significant health risks, demanding that she undergo it simply because she happened to be born female and had sex is, at the very least, demeaning. There are NO other modern circumstances in which either society or the government would force someone to endure nine months of bodily donation resulting in drastic physical changes, discomfort, pain, and potentially life threatening conditions followed by pushing a seven pound object out of a bodily orifice, just because someone else benefits from it. If something like that was going on, people would be outraged, and heads would roll.

     

    Childbirth is described as the single most painful experience a person can experience. If you get a wanted baby out of it, it’s worth it. If you’re forced or coerced to go through that process and that pain, it would be torture, as would the preceeding nine months. That’s where illegal and unsafe abortion flourishes. In desperation. You say that you feel for the women and girls who face unwanted pregnancy, but I’m not sure if you’re grasping the reality of what you want to force them to do.

     

    Women and girls have been terminating unwanted and unteneble pregnancies for ages. Burning people at the stake didn’t stop it. Excommunicating people doesn’t stop it. Making it illegal doesn’t stop it. Stigmatizing it doesn’t stop it. We have two choices: either abortion is legal, accessible, and safe, or it is illegal/inaccessble, and unsafe.

  • deanna

    No actually I put that link on there so that you guys could see the proof that I am who I say I am and that I am legit, not a spammer and not a troll. Frankly, I wouldn’t know how to spam something if I needed to. Also, I was hoping that someone may go there and learn the truth about what they are advocating for.  It’s really not necessary to try and discredit me that way. 

  • deanna

    That is a ridiculous statement. Just so you know!

  • deanna

    I think that a logical adult can agree that the people who do the abortions are the experts on them. The abortionsits who do them, at least the honest ones, admit that it is a baby. Did you look at the quotes?

  • deanna

    There non profit status has nothing to do with the reality of it. You can look a their yearly reports and see that they have a butt load of money in the bank.  So why do they need my tax money? If you look at what the executives make it is an astounding amount of money. Also, former Planned Parenthood workers openly admit that PP pushes the abortion agenda and tries to get the local clinics to increase revenue by pushing abortions. 

    http://www.abbyjohnson.org/

    While I’m on that subject here is something that I don’t understand. Why is it that when an abortionists or a clinic worker is still in the business they are regarded as trustworthy and pro-aborts listen to them but when they admit to themselves what they are doing and stop doing it and tell the truth all of a sudden all the pro-aborts start pointing fingers and yelling that they are lying. I never have understood that. What would their reasoning be for lying. It doesn’t make any sense.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ You are completely sickening, you remind me of every fucking rapist I knew as a kid. I hope your evil female torturing pro-life, christian ass gets banned. ~

     

    ~ Your christian god is a baby killer, and he was not trying to spare his-self genital pain, he was just pissed some one was not kissing his ass just right. ~

    ~ Hosea 13: 16

    “Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.” ~

     

    ~ 1 Samuel 15:3 

    “Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” ~

     

    ~ Exodus 11:4-5:

    “And Moses said, thus says the Lord, about midnight I will go out into Egypt; and all the firstborn in the land [the pride hope and joy] of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sits on his throne, even the firstborn of the maidservant who is behind the hand mill, and all the firstborn of beasts.” ~

     

    ~ Psalms 137:9 “Happy and blessed shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against a rock!” ~

     

     

    ~ Pro-lifers favorite piece of literature of all time.

     A bible verse, Genesis 3:16

    I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and cravings will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. ~

    ~ Christian god forbid women and girls of escaping this sadomasochistic curse pro-lifers god put on the female race. ~

  • prochoiceferret

     if “protecting” the mothers means advocating for them to kill their babies then I would have to agree with you on that one.

     

    No, just respecting their rights and their ability to makes choices regarding their own bodies and life in general. I’m guessing you don’t agree with that.

     

    it’s the woman with an unwnted baby who is denied the opportunity to kill it. Let’s call it what it is and stop playing word games. And yes, they should be denied the opportunity to kill it.

     

    Well then, the fetus should be denied the opportunity to draw life support from a woman who does not consent to provide it. After it has died, it can be removed in the safest manner possible from the woman’s body.

     

    Actually that’s not true. I am the mother to eight children, I had two miscarriages (included in that number), Two biological children. I almost died when one was born and had to stay in bed for six months with the next, four are adopted (two international, one teen from the foster system and one special needs child from the foster system (who would have most certainly been aborted given his medical issues) and I myself am a survivor of a missed abortion attempt.

     

    Well, that explains why you’re ignorant of why a woman would want an aborton… you’re so gung-ho into motherhood that you can’t even wrap your head around why other women wouldn’t want to make the same choices as you.

     

    I ran a crisis pregnancy center for years where I tried to help women heal emotionally from abortions that they had.

     

    Well, at least that beats lying to pregnant women who are considering abortion, after drawing them in under the impression that your facility is “the abortion clinic.”

     

    So, yes, I know this issue very well from all sides. I can speak with experience both for myself and for my adopted children when I say that in the world of abortion, none of us would be alive if the people making that call had listened to the pro-abortion arguments.

     

    Why would that be? Because you had a choice?

     

    No, at the time they were quoted most were still in the business.

     

    Oh, okay, so they were the ones who still support a woman’s right to an abortion despite their own personal views on the subject.

     

    I am not talking about true life of the mother issues or true health issues but in reality these make up only a tiny number of the abortionsn done each year. You can’t hang your pro-abortion hat on that one, meaning that it is not a valid argument for the millions aborted each year when there is no health or life risk to the mother. You can’t roll it all up into one argument.

     

    So then, you do argue valiantly against Republican efforts to pass abortion bans that don’t have an exception for the health of the woman, right? Especially when they say that “health reasons” are really little more than an excuse?

     

    No it’s not. Abortion is just infanticide in the womb. When healthy, viable babies are killed that is infanticide.

     

    Sorry, but abortion is not infanticide, any more than it is murder. Talk to a judge sometime, you may find it enlightening.

     

    I really don’t understand how that happened and how we got o the point that we are so cold hearted and dead inside to think that it is ok.

     

    Funny, I was thinking exactly this about you.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Just so you know it is true. ~

  • prochoiceferret

    There non profit status has nothing to do with the reality of it. You can look a their yearly reports and see that they have a butt load of money in the bank.  So why do they need my tax money?

     

    Because a “butt load of money” isn’t necessarily enough to run a nation-wide operation that serves the reproductive-health needs of many, many communities. Ten million dollars is a “butt load of money”—is that enough to run all the CPCs across the country without federal funding?

     

    If you look at what the executives make it is an astounding amount of money.

     

    If you look at what the executives do it is an astounding amount of work.

     

    Also, former Planned Parenthood workers openly admit that PP pushes the abortion agenda and tries to get the local clinics to increase revenue by pushing abortions.

     

    They could sure push the abortion agenda a lot harder by not offering contraception, don’t you think?

     

    While I’m on that subject here is something that I don’t understand. Why is it that when an abortionists or a clinic worker is still in the business they are regarded as trustworthy and pro-aborts listen to them but when they admit to themselves what they are doing and stop doing it and tell the truth all of a sudden all the pro-aborts start pointing fingers and yelling that they are lying. I never have understood that. What would their reasoning be for lying. It doesn’t make any sense.

     

    Good question. How much do you suppose Abby Johnson makes from speaking fees and book deals?

  • prochoiceferret

    I think that a logical adult can agree that the people who do the abortions are the experts on them. The abortionsits who do them, at least the honest ones, admit that it is a baby.

     

    They admitted their opinion, i.e. how they feel about it. They may be experts on how to perform an abortion, but that doesn’t necessarily make them experts on semantics.

     

    What, if I “admit” Coke is better than Pepsi, does that in fact mean that Coke is better than Pepsi? I guess it does if I’m an “abortionist” and you’re an anti-choicer! (Sorry if you prefer Pepsi.)

  • prochoiceferret

    That is a ridiculous statement. Just so you know!

     

    Statements that assert women’s autonomy are typically regarded as ridiculous by anti-choicers. But then, I’m sure you knew that already!

  • prochoiceferret

    Little regard for truth?? Name one thing that I said that was untrue. Just one! I backed up every word I said with documented proof.

     

    I’ll name one: “Abortion is murder.”

     

    And no, you didn’t back that up with documented proof—at least not a standard of proof that is acceptable to anyone other than anti-choicers, who seem to think that a Bible quote or Lifesite article is good enough to constitute “proof.”

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Quit calling us pro aborts you vile-evil-creep! My little sister wants five children, and I hope she has them. Get your head out of your misogynistic jerk ass. ~

  • deanna

    I don’t have a clue but just in case you are right and she did it for the money (which I don’t believe she did. I read her book and she seemed very genuine. I think it’s highly unlikely) here is a link to a whole bunch of former providers who don’t get anything for speaking because they feel that they would still be making money off abortion if they did. Most of them came out of the business because they “saw” what they were doing in a way that they had never realized before. Their testimonies are all different but they all have one thing in common. They now agree that they were killing babies and they shouldn’t have been. http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/


  • julie-watkins

    so women should just suck it up and do their duty.  — No, I’m going to fight against that notion.

    And the poor were born to support the rich so they should suck it up and do their duty. — No, I’m going fight against that notion.

  • ahunt

    Deanna…what do you say to a woman who is unwillingly pregnant, and determined to end the pregnancy, one way or another? Be specific and detailed.

    Just curious.

  • deanna

    So you don’t think that the very doctors who do the procedures telling you what they do is proof? What else do you need for proof? The links I provided have the doctors words then a complete bibliography at the end including page numbers where the quotes can be found. Thats as much proof as it can get.

     

    One of the doctors says “It [abortion] goes against all things which are natural. It’s a termination of a life, however you look at it.”(7)

    Abortionist Robert Harris

     

    and….”It [abortion] is a form of killing. You’re ending a life.” (10)

    Abortion Advocate and President of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, Ron Fitzsimmons

     

    “No one, neither the patient receiving the abortion, nor the person doing the abortion, is ever, at any time, unaware that they are ending a life…” (14)

    Abortion provider William F Harrison, MD


    I could go on but the point is made. Abortion kills something, that something is human, by definition murder means “To kill brutally or inhumanly” and “.The unlawful killing of one human by another” granted,abortion  is lawful, which is our entire argument, it shouldn’t be! And morally it is murder.

     taken from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/murder

  • prochoiceferret

    I read her book and she seemed very genuine. I think it’s highly unlikely

     

    Funny, that’s what Bernie Madoff’s victims said of him too.

     

    Most of them came out of the business because they “saw” what they were doing in a way that they had never realized before. Their testimonies are all different but they all have one thing in common. They now agree that they were killing babies and they shouldn’t have been.

     

    Great, so some people changed their mind. We all know that happens very, very, very, very rarely.

     

    Why don’t you read the story of Andrea Grimes, who used to be a “pro-life” Republican until she was confronted with the reality of what she had been advocating?

  • prochoiceferret

    So you don’t think that the very doctors who do the procedures telling you what they do is proof? What else do you need for proof? The links I provided have the doctors words then a complete bibliography at the end including page numbers where the quotes can be found. Thats as much proof as it can get.

     

    Great! So why don’t you go file murder charges against women who are unrepentant about having had abortions? You can submit their “I had an abortion” stories as Exhibit A, and your doctor-quotes “proof” as Exhibit B.

     

    I could go on but the point is made. Abortion kills something, that something is human, by definition murder means “To kill brutally or inhumanly” and “.The unlawful killing of one human by another” granted,abortion  is lawful, which is our entire argument, it shouldn’t be! And morally it is murder.

     

    So why are you telling me this? Tell it to the judge.

  • lauraj400

    Chistian who is pro-rape.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Bullshit! I grew up with southern baptist preachers, all but one was a pervert, their favorite age for girls to be was twelve and thirteen. And christians capitalize off of child rape by way of forcing pregnant raped little girls to breed to satisfy their pregnancy and birth fetishes. ~

  • crowepps

     I read her book and she seemed very genuine.

    A good ghost writer can put ‘sincerity’ across with no problems at all.  Especially when writing for people eager to be convinced and grant absolution to the repentent ‘sinner’.

     

    I find it interesting that you’re under the impression the sentimental drek you’re posting is new, original and might convince somebody.  We’re had other posters here also apparently taking the advanced ‘how to argue against abortion’ course on-line from Liberty University.  Your posts and theirs are interchangeable.  Most of theirs were better written, though.  Are you just trying to generate some hit numbers for your blog?

  • freetobe

    You are ok with abortion as a choice that only the woman and her doctor make right? So what is the problem other than people here are not saying they believe it is a human life? Some people do not think a fetus is a human until it is born. Everyone has a right to his or her own beliefs.

     

    I personally beleive it is a human being at contraception because I have studied animal husbandry and plant reproduction in fact was fascinated by the whole process  Is it that you want everyone here to admit something they may not beleive? 

     

    I have a question for you. Why is it that the religious right and other anti-choice organizations  are not outside the pentagon day and night harassing the the soldiers,the military,the bomb makers,the gun manufacturers of military weapons. They are killing LIVING BREATHING Humans and that pisses me off! My tax dollars are paying for three wars I do not want to pay for. People-Men, Women and children including unborn children are losing their lives and for what? The US is not going to be any safer. It is bogus! They just love killing and maiming for the almighty dollar and the oil!!. Tell them to stop- instead of harrassing women.

     

    This just proves the point that the republicans want women to be cattle or property to men. heck we practically still are now. i personally find it barbaric to be nothing but a baby machine with no other value and that is exactly what they are doing! Open your eyes and ears and do some research you will find the truth. they could care less about fetuses or women!

     

  • ack

    No one here is “pro-abortion.” We’re pro-choice, or pro-abortion rights, or pro-reproductive justice, or a number of other labels that accurately portray our viewpoint. If you’re here to actually have a meaningful debate, stop using language clearly intended to degrade or insult us.

  • freetobe

    What is   it about you people that you do not understand english? Read about the HYDE AMENDMENT=NO TAXPAYER MONEY FOR ABORTION ON DEMAND.  What’s the problem???? 

    HYDE AMENDMENT=

    NO TAXPAYER MONEY GOES TO  ABORTIONS ON DEMAND, EXCEPT, FOR RAPE AND INCEST OR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IN DANGER.

    NO TAXPAYER MONEY GOES TO  ABORTIONS ON DEMAND, EXCEPT, FOR RAPE AND INCEST OR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IN DANGER.

    NO TAXPAYER MONEY GOES TO  ABORTIONS ON DEMAND, EXCEPT, FOR RAPE AND INCEST OR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IN DANGER.

    NO TAXPAYER MONEY GOES TO  ABORTIONS ON DEMAND, EXCEPT, FOR RAPE AND INCEST OR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IN DANGER.

     

    That includes Planned Parenthood too for goodness sakes!

  • deanna

    Well I would start by getting to the bottom of why it is that she is intent on ending the pregnancy. In my experience most women who have made this decision have done so with very little if any education on fetal development, abortion techniques, and any options she may have.(the reson for my blog’s existence) My main goal would be to educate her so that she can make a choice with full knowledge. There are entirely too many women who come out of abortion clinics devastated emotionally because they did not have a full understanding of what it was about until after they had done it. Also, many abortion clinics make a practice of telling the women that is is simply a blob of tissue or a potential human or that they are “aborting a pregnancy”. When this happens and the woman finds out later that it was indeed a human being many of them go into a tailspin of emotions that sometimes end up being a disaster. I am very much for informed consent. If they feel that this is what they want to do then they at least need to have all of the facts.  Abortion clinic workers have said that if the women knew what they knew they would never do it. Sonograms are important for this reason. If a woman is going to have an abortion them she should know exactly what she is choosing. I would then try to provide some of her practical needs if that were her obstacle. I have moved women into my home, found others apartments, furnished those apartments and bought them groceries all on my own dime trying to help them if they really want to parent but finances are the issue and I have gone with teens to their parents homes to tell the parents they are pregnant because they were afraid to go alone. I would then provide them with avenues for pre-natal care, food and housing assistance, baby furniture, clothing and formula, maternity clothes and any other practical needs she may have. My goal would be to take away the obstacles to her parenting if thats what she really wanted to do but felt that she couldn’t. A HUGE majority of women who abort are in this category. If she didn’t want to parent or felt that she simply could not I would then present to her the option to place the baby for adoption explaining to her that even though adoption would be very hard for her it would be best for the baby given that the alternative would be for it to die. And I would explain to her that adoption is one of the most selfless acts that a woman can do for her child while abortion is the most selfish. I would explain to her that the Bible says that Children are a gift of the Lord and they are His reward to us and I would help her to understand that this “gift” is something to be celebrated and loved unconditionally and in return it will give her unconditional love. I would also share with her the scripture that says “God formed us in our mother’s wombs and planned out all of our days before we had any of them” and the scripture about “how we are fearfully and wonderfully made by God” and I would explain to her that even though it seems scary right now and she is unsure that in the end she will be glad she chose life. There is no record of any  mother who has ever chosen life saying that they wish they had aborted . In the end if she still chose to abort I would invite her back for post abortion counseling if she were to need it. I would show compassion for her and her situation while at the same time telling the truth because I think it is extremely unfair to women for them to not know the truth. 

    I am aware that the scriptures I share with the women will offend some of you but I am a Christian and I believe they are true as do almost all of the women I have counseled so it is appropriate. If I had a woman who said she didnt believe in the bible (which I never have) then I suppose I would just stick with the educational part. I can’t really say for sure because that scenario has never happened.

    Every situation that I have ever had has been differnt than the last so it’s hard to put a “plan” out there. The bottom line is to, show compassion, tell the truth, educate, provide practical help and then hoep she chooses life.

  • deanna

    I hear you and I can respect that but I have a question. Why is it that pro-choice people are so against the women knowing the truth about what they are doing? Why do abortion clinic workers lie to them about “aborting a pregnancy” when they know that a pregnancy means there is human life in there? Why do they say it is “tissue” or a “potential human”. Why are they so opposed to women seeing sonogram pictures of the “fetus”? You would think that they would want them to know all of the facts, all of their options. Most women who see a sonogram picture change their minds and don’t ahve an abortion. Why is that a bad thing if it is about choice? I don’t get it?

  • deanna

    Technically this is true but the hyde amendment is not enforced in the sense that the tax money given to Planned Parenthood goes into one big pot and they use the tax money to keep the lights on and pay Ms Richards which in turn frees up the money they bring in to open more abortion clinics. Furthermore,our taxmoney via USIAD goes directly to Planned Parenthood international and other abortion providers to be used internationally for abortion. These funds can and probably do get used directly for abortions.

  • ahunt

    Hmmm…so essentially you do not think that women choose abortion simply because they do not wish to be pregnant…full stop?

  • deanna

    I am really sorry for your pain. It is obvious that you have been through a lot. Satan, our enemy and God’s enemy would kill us all if he could. It was he who caused these things to happen to you.  Humans have a free will and someone being influenced by satan used theirs to hurt you.  I am very sorry for that. I pray that soemday you will find healing for your pain. I am sincere about that.

  • deanna

    I think that some do. I’m just saying that in my experience that has not been the case. Also, I believe firmly that if those who choose to abort “just because they do not want to be pregnant” really knew what they were doing, that they were taking the life of their child, if they saw it on a sonogram and knew it was really a baby very few of them would be so selfish as to kill it just because they don’t want to be pregnant. Most just don’t have the facts to make a true informed choice. What usually happens is that they, by virtue of pro-choice propaganda, believe the semantics that de-humanize the baby, take it’s worth away, and minimize abortion even telling women that it’s no different than having a tooth pulled. If they knew the facts, saw the pictures and weren’t lied to many of them would choose life.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Bullshit sex offender, you are so pissed that I did not get pregnant as a kid you can hardly contain your christian pro-life self.

    If a penis goes in a baby must come out, even if the vagina is only nine-years-old, that is the christian pro-life way. ~

     

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/church-excommunicates-mother-of-9yearold-rape-victim-ndash-but-not-accused-rapist-14218389.html

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/13/966470/-The-Scarlet-Letter-ReturnsFundies-Force-Child-Rape-Victim-to-Confess-Her-Sin

     

     

     

  • rebellious-grrl

    deanna *Just so you know* you are a troll! You have no ground to stand on here to tell Forced birth is RAPE that her statement is ridiculous! Forced birth is RAPE is correct! And like her name says, forced birth is rape.

  • deanna

    So I’m cold hearted and dead because I don’t want babies to die? Wow! We are a mixed up world.

  • deanna

    No Forced I really do feel for you. It’s heartbreaking and I really will pray for you to find healing. 

  • ahunt

    Sigh…was wondering when “selfish” would become part of the dialogue.

  • lauraj400

    area is A CHristian and he goes aFTER theses creeps with a vengence.I’m a Christian AND I am NOT PRO-RAPE.The head of PP is a church goer.Do you think she is pro-rape?

  • arectaris

    Reading this thread makes one realize just how extreme pro-choicers in the U.S. really are. Most of these restrictions are already in place in many European countries. If the pro-choicers here are screaming about 20 weeks, they’d probably die in Europe upon hearing the limit is usually 12 weeks, or even upon knowing that some countries mandate pre-abortion counseling.

  • ahunt

    The facts are as follows:

     

    45 million women have undergone abortion.

     

    The vast majority of them would make the same decision in the same circumstances.

     

    If abortion is outlawed, women will become outlaws…and women will die.

  • ahunt

    Details…especially the “pre-abortion” counseling part.

  • squirrely-girl

    Why do they say it is “tissue” or a “potential human”.

    Because unless you’re the type that enjoys denying the basic tenets of biology and development, it IS tissue and when over 90% of abortions are being performed it is certainly a “potential” life. See, during the first trimester in particular even if that embryo or fetus was removed intact from the woman’s body it WOULD NOT SURVIVE. Hence the term, potential. Heck, even if the woman decides against abortion, it’s still just potential life because a large number of pregnancies don’t reach full term (see: spontaneous abortion, stillborn). 

    Why are they so opposed to women seeing sonogram pictures of the “fetus”?

    I don’t think anybody here would be opposed to a woman seeing a sonogram if she wanted to… we’re opposed to the woman being FORCED to look at a picture and listen to canned speeches if she doesn’t want to. See, that pro-choice attitude extends to allowing women to choose what is best for them including choosing to not look at a sonogram. Crazy, but most of here think women are perfectly capable of making decisions for themselves without having them forced on them. 

    Most women who see a sonogram picture change their minds and don’t ahve an abortion.

    I would REALLY like to see a reference for this because I’m fairly certain I’ve read material to the contrary. 

  • forced-birth-rape

    “and women will die” ~ Pro-forced birthers are fine with that! Any woman or little girl not willing to put-out, such as give birth, can just drop dead.

    If the female race would only be the nothing but useable cunts the pro-lifers and sex-slave owners want them to be. All the rapist and sexual tortures of the world would be satisfied. ~

  • ahunt

    I would REALLY like to see a reference for this because I’m fairly certain I’ve read material to the contrary.

     

    http://www.livescience.com/12886-abortion-sonogram-research.html

     

    http://thecurvature.com/2010/06/01/anti-choice-ultrasound-laws-dont-change-abortion-rates-but-continue-getting-tougher/

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    Reading this thread makes one realize just how extreme pro-choicers in the U.S. really are. Most of these restrictions are already in place in many European countries.

     

    I suppose you’re in favor of the tough hate-speech regulations in force in many European countries? Or do you consider the U.S. emphasis on free-speech rights to be similarly “extreme?”

  • ack

    They money that PP receives is reimbursement for services they perform. As an example, if I go into a Planned Parenthood for a pap smear and contraception, and I pay on a sliding scale or with Medicaid, they record that those services were performed and how much (if any) I paid. Then, through the complicated world of grant reporting, the total number of services is reported, the total amount of income for those services is reported, and the organization receives funds according to the government’s reimbursement schedule. There’s probably some overhead money in there (like keeping the lights on), but the majority of it is direct reimbursement for health care for low-income individuals.

     

    The catch is that the federal government doesn’t fully reimburse the program. It’s not a dollar for dollar program. PP makes up the cost through donations and other grants. It’s the same with Medicare and Medicaid in general (and PP sees a LOT of Medicaid patients). Decreasing reimbursement rates for Medicaid has resulted in fewer providers being willing to see those patients.

     

    Cutting funding to Planned Parenthood would leave a lot of people with literally nowhere else to go.

  • elburto

    Sounds like hypocrisy to me!

     

    Speaking of hypocrisy, what are you/your organisation trying to do to help the campaigns to end stillbirth?  Stillbirth is almost entirely due to poverty (malnutrition, poor health, poor prenatal care, stress, etc), and is largely preventable.  You’re harassing women and forcing them to birth babies they don’t want and can’t care for, while heartbroken familes with decorated nurseries grieve over babies that were born dead.  Your drive to eliminate organisations like PP will cause more deaths.  Women will die, foetuses will die in utero, and neonates will die, all because you want to control womens’ sexuality, and force them to birth against their will.

     

    So tell me, what have you done to help make stillbirth, the tragic death of a viable, wanted child, a thing of the past?  Because if the answer is “Nothing” then it’s YOU that’s the fucking hypocrite.

     

     

    Oh and 22 weeks is the absolute limit on viability.  You know what happens to the 22-weekers though?  They live in agony on ventilators, and then die anyway.  The tiny minority that do survive will never live normal lives.

  • prochoiceferret

    So I’m cold hearted and dead because I don’t want babies to die?

     

    Nope. You’re cold-hearted and “dead” because you want to deny pregnant women control over their own bodies while claiming that you’re doing so only for the sake of the “babies”—even though this all-important concern for “babies” doesn’t seem to manifest itself in any form that could actually inconvenience men, let alone cost taxpayer dollars.

     

    Wow! We are a mixed up world.

     

    At least that much we can agree on.

  • elburto

    So Laura, I’m an atheist who is allergic to limes, therefore all atheists are allergic to limes?  The one Laura I see here is a gibbering nutjob, so everyone called Laura must be a lunatic too!

     

     Wait, whaddya mean itdoesn’t work that way?  Who’d’a thunk it!

  • prochoiceferret

    So Laura, I’m an atheist who is allergic to limes, therefore all atheists are allergic to limes?  The one Laura I see here is a gibbering nutjob, so everyone called Laura must be a lunatic too!

     

    Oh my God. I think you may be on to something there!

     

    Wait, whaddya mean itdoesn’t work that way?  Who’d’a thunk it!

     

    Who knows? Maybe it does!! Any lime-loving atheists around here? Anyone?

  • elburto

     babies having their arms and legs torn off and their skull crushed and their brains sucked out

     

    You may be a woman, but you clearly know next to nothing about embryonic/foetal development.  The vast majority of terminations are performed before the embryo is even recognisable as a humanoid organism, let alone before it has fully working limbs, a skull, and an actual brain.

  • elburto

    If abortion is murder, what sentence should the woman receive for having one?

  • elburto

    upon hearing the limit is usually 12 weeks, or even upon knowing that some countries mandate pre-abortion counseling.

     

    [citation needed]

     

     In my country, in Europe, termination is permitted up to 24 weeks without question, and up to term if it’s necessary to save the woman’s life, if continuing the pregnancy would injure the woman physically or mentally, or if the foetus is suffering from physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

     

     However, because abortion is free here, and access to it is unhindered in the earliest stages, 90% are performed under 13 weeks, and 98% under 20.  Only 1% are after 24 weeks.  We also have no parental notification laws, or mandatory counselling.  You simply see your GP, if they agree it is necessary they sign the consent form along with a partner doctor at their practice, and the pregnancy can usually be terminated in days.  In some areas there’s only a 3 day wait from seeing your GP to actually having the procedure.  Free, paid for by *gasp* taxpayer’s money, and I couldn’t be happier.  The fewer unwanted kids the better.  Having worked with abused kids, I can honestly say that childrenm being unwanted is one of the biggest precursors to abuse.  We need to stop that by not forcing women and girls to bear children they never wanted.

  • lauraj400

    a gibbering nutjob

  • lauraj400

    a gibbering nutjob

  • arectaris

    Which country do you live in? Unless something has drastically changed in the past month, then there is no country in Europe which allows unrestricted abortions up until the 24th week of gestation that pays for them. The closest country to that which you describe would be U.K., though abortions in the U.K. are far from free. Speaking of the which, assuming that is the country you are talking about, I should point out that the U.K. has one of the highest, if not the highest, abortion rate in Europe, and that repeat abortions are also going up, leading many to believe that women are using abortion as a form of birth control. I suppose if that’s your kind of paradise, then I shouldn’t be too surprised given your posts. And on the topic of child abuse, I feel that I should mention that abortion history is associated with more frequently maternal slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment in general (study). Since you agree child abuse is bad, then do you not agree that if women who abort have more history of being abusive to their children than women who do not, that we should examine whether or not abortion should be legal as it might lead to women being more abusive to their children than they otherwise would be, perpetuating the cycle of abuse? As for you wanting citations about Europe, try this.

  • prochoiceferret

    And on the topic of child abuse, I feel that I should mention that abortion history is associated with more frequently maternal slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment in general

     

    You forgot to add the “…in a sample of mothers who have either personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so” part.

     

    Since you agree child abuse is bad, then do you not agree that if women who abort have more history of being abusive to their children than women who do not, that we should examine whether or not abortion should be legal as it might lead to women being more abusive to their children than they otherwise would be, perpetuating the cycle of abuse?

     

    Probably not, because the study only found a correlation among mothers who were already abusive, and not a causation among women who choose to abort in general. Perhaps you may want to read it more closely, instead of presuming it says what your buddies at Lifesite think it says.

  • arectaris

    You forgot to add the “…in a sample of mothers who have either personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so” part.

     

    I didn’t leave it out, nor would it have made much sense to try to do so, as it’s right there in the abstract for all to read. While there may be and probably is an overlap between women who personally abuse their children and women who allow others to, it doesn’t change the outcome of the study. There isn’t much difference between a woman beating her child mercilessly, and her allowing someone else to beat her child mercilessly. The end result is the same. In both cases, she’s equally as culpable. The study set out to determine if that abuse was more likely to happen based on prior abortion history.

     

    Probably not, because the study only found a correlation among mothers who were already abusive, and not a causation among women who choose to abort in general. Perhaps you may want to read it more closely, instead of presuming it says what your buddies at Lifesite think it says.

     

    The study said no such thing. It did not look at prior abuse to determine abortion history, but abortion history to determine present abuse. I will quote for you what it said verbatim:

     

    The purpose of this study was to explore maternal history of induced abortion as a possible variable linked with increased frequency of child physical abuse in a sample of mothers who have either personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so. The findings indicated that women who had an abortion history reported more frequent slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment compared to women without an abortion history, after statistical controls were instituted for other forms of perinatal loss and socio-demographic, family of origin, and boyfriend/husband aggressive behaviors identified as significant predictors of the choice to abort. 

     

    …The results of this study revealed distinct differences in the frequency of aggressive behaviors inflicted on children based on maternal history of abortion. Abortion may be a primary cause of the differences detected or related to one or more central causes, but it does appear to be a marker variable for more frequent aggression

  • prochoiceferret

    I didn’t leave it out, nor would it have made much sense to try to do so, as it’s right there in the abstract for all to read. While there may be and probably is an overlap between women who personally abuse their children and women who allow others to, it doesn’t change the outcome of the study.

     

    It does if you’re interested in the sample of women who have neither personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so (a.k.a. most women), about which the study says zip.

     

    The study said no such thing. It did not look at prior abuse to determine abortion history, but abortion history to determine present abuse. I will quote for you what it said verbatim:

     

    Funny, it doesn’t say anywhere in there that abortion is “a primary cause of the differences detected,” even among those women who do personally mistreat their children or allow someone else to do so.

  • crowepps

    So as I understand it, your premise is that women have abortions and that CAUSES them to be abusive to their children through some bizarre personality change?  And banning the (legal) abortions would prevent the evil magic involved from causing this mysterious personality change?

     

    Did it ever occur to you that BOTH the abusive behavior and the abortions are caused by a THIRD factor, like poverty?  Like perhaps not wanting to be a mother at all because one is deficient in maternal feelings?  Forcing women who don’t want to be mothers to have back alley abortions instead isn’t going to cure child abuse.  Except, of course, insofar as it kills a lot of women.  The idea that you can ‘save’ women from being abusive by forcing them to have children they don’t want is one of the most bizarre things I’ve ever heard.  It’s practically guaranteed to double, perhaps triple the abuse and neglect cases.  Why do you hate those children so much?  Why do you want to condemn them to miserable lives with mothers full of resentment and abuse?

     

    There’s voluminous research showing that rigid, authoritarian fundamentalist religious people are 50% more likely to abuse their children, that such people commit more domestic violence, and that they are more likely to exhibit sexual perversions.  Does that mean it’s the religion that mysteriously causes the violence?  Or isn’t it a lot more likely that the TYPE OF PERSON who is ALREADY abusive and violent and perverted is more likely to CHOOSE authoritarian fundamentalism?

  • arectaris

    How did you go from, 

     

    I feel that I should mention that abortion history is associated with more frequently maternal slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment in general. Since you agree child abuse is bad, then do you not agree that if women who abort have more history of being abusive to their children than women who do not, that we should examine whether or not abortion should be legal as it might lead to women being more abusive to their children than they otherwise would be, perpetuating the cycle of abuse? 

     

    to your post?

     

    Though since you typed it out, can you find me a study showing that the instances of child abuse go up when abortion is illegal and down when it’s illegal? If you cannot, then you have no factual basis upon which to assert that making abortion illegal would double or even triple the number of abuse cases.

  • arectaris

    It does if you’re interested in the sample of women who have neither personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so (a.k.a. most women), about which the study says zip.

     

    Of course it would say zip about women who have neither personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so, as the study is not interested in non-abuse, but whether or not abortion history plays into child abuse. You should try not to change the scope of the study to include those things it did not set out to investigate.

     

    Funny, it doesn’t say anywhere in there that abortion is “a primary cause of the differences detected,” even among those women who do personally mistreat their children or allow someone else to do so.

     

    When did I say that abortion was the primary cause of differences detected?

  • prochoiceferret

    Of course it would say zip about women who have neither personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so, as the study is not interested in non-abuse, but whether or not abortion history plays into child abuse.

     

    The study found a statistical correlation among abusive women of abortion history and abuse. That’s it.

     

    You could say exactly the same thing about amount of TV watched (women who watch more TV = more abusive). Does that mean that watching TV makes women more abusive? No. Does that mean there aren’t lots and lots of women who watch TV shows all day and yet manage perfectly well not to be abusive? No. Does it make a suggestion of legally prohibiting TV to prevent women from abusing their kids an utterly ludicrous non-sequitur coming from an ideologue who only pretends to care about science? Yep.

     

    No wonder your side continues pushing the notion of “post-abortion depression” and abortion-linked breast cancer. You wouldn’t know how to read a scientific study if your life depended on it.

     

    When did I say that abortion was the primary cause of differences detected?

     

    Does it say that abortion is a secondary, tertiary, or quaternary cause either? I suppose if you get the number-ary high enough, you might get something—and I’ll consider banning abortion to prevent child abuse once you’ve successfully eliminated all the more likely causes, like, say, unwanted pregnancy.

  • ahunt

    I feel that I should mention that fundamentalist religiosity is associated with more frequently parental slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment in general. Since you agree child abuse is bad, then do you not agree that if religious fundamentalists have more history of being abusive to their children than those people who are not religious fundamentalists, that we should examine whether or not fundamentalist religion should be legal as it might lead to people being more abusive to their children than they otherwise would be, perpetuating the cycle of abuse?

    Oh look…other studies…

    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:7c5OuiaiewIJ:ecademy.agnesscott.edu/~mzavodny/documents/AERPP_abortionandchildabuse_000.pdf+abortion+and+child+abuse+studies&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShDOff5OAJIQQ4kWUqzPOtkHfC4wG0tipaMImTA5S4rXXmpTahBV187IVfi6nfWDUHAhL7vISOBI3J2VrEK34Cjd6_jVNY2PjhPZ3xYjPC5RKv7BSB8vgoSRMhTi66F3mXp7JU4&sig=AHIEtbRLcOpwFEpsnH3eSYplO0ZOfbiWEw

  • crowepps

    Oh, merciful Minerva — another visitation from the constantly evolving troll who blathers endlessly about how since people aren’t REALLY like that they wouldn’t REALLY act that way if they REALLY knew the TRUTH — consistently revealed through this bizarre word construction.  What an enormous waste of time this entire conversation has been.  I’m going to have to go watch Shaun the Sheep videos until I feel better.

  • katwa

    If I became pregnant, I would abort right away. I am not stupid, either, I know what an abortion is. I know a fetus is growing in the uterus and tha abortion would kill it. I’ve seen sonograms before of my brother before he was born.  I would still do it in a second because I don’t want to be pregnant or give birth. I have never wanted to and probably never will. The idea of pushing a baby out of my vagina, or getting cut open is fucking horrifying to me. Shouldn’t I have a choice in whether I want to go through something like that? Or just because I have a vagina & uterus I should have to suffer?

     

    What would you recommend I do if I became pregnant? Is there some other option (you said women are too stupid and don’t know all the “options available”) instead of abortion to end the pregnancy? I suppose I could kill myself?

  • kj

    It’s not abortion clinics that lie.  In undergrad, I did an analysis of information provided by crisis pregancy centers and planned parenthood.  Guess what?  All of PP’s information was medically accurate.  Crisis pregancy centers were the ones that lied about everything.  PP and other abortion clinics also provide counseling to make sure the woman understands her choices.  I have a friend who counsels at an abortion clinic; her job is to make sure that women understand their choice and are making it freely.  When I went undercover at a crisis pregnancy center (part of the same investigation) to see how honest their counseling was, it was not honest at all.  They made no effort to explain medically what was happening; they showed medically incorrect models of fetii and showed highly doctored films. PP, on the other hand, provides medically accurate information.  Abortion is ending a pregancy and the terminating the life of the fetus.  But the fetus is not a person, it is a potential person.  If a woman wants to go through with pregnancy, the fetus will, baring a sponatanous abortion, produce a person.   Women are not stupid; they know when they get an abortion that it is terminating the fetus and ending the chance that that fetus will become a person.  They know that, but that doesn’t mean they want to have a baby.  In many cases, having a baby would interfer with their ability to parent their living children.  CPC lie; PP tells the truth.

  • beenthere72

    I was going by how many times you reference G-d in your bio on your website (9 times).

  • colleen

    Perhaps if dead beat Bei spent less time trolling a blog where he has been banned  and more time working at a job he would be able to meet his child support obligations

  • beenthere72

    Those 45 million women are REALLY stupid, according to Deanna.    They must’ve thought they were removing a toaster from their uterus.    And here I thought it was a tennis ball I had removed.    The second time, I could’ve sworn it was that house key that I thought I lost.     And that time it happened spontaneously,  a garden gnome.    How could I have been so dumb?

  • arectaris

    The study found a statistical correlation among abusive women of abortion history and abuse. That’s it.

     

    The study found that abortion history is associated with greater instances of child abuse.

     

    The purpose of this study was to explore the relationship between maternal history of induced abortion and subsequent frequency of child-directed aggressive behavior in a sample of mothers of children who have been abused or neglected…

     

    Abortion history was associated with more frequently maternal slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment in general.

     

    Those are exact quotes from the study, detailing the goal and the conclusion. I don’t know how you can continue to repeat the same incorrect thing, even when the study says different than what you are saying. Do the authors not know what it is they were researching or how to read their own conclusions? You could go through the entire study and not find where the authors came to the conclusion you say they came to. They found that abortion history is associated with subsequent child abuse, not that abusive women who had an abortion had a prior history of abuse.

     

    *I want to emphasize the word subsequent, as it means after, not before as you posit.

     

    You could say exactly the same thing about amount of TV watched (women who watch more TV = more abusive). Does that mean that watching TV makes women more abusive? No. Does that mean there aren’t lots and lots of women who watch TV shows all day and yet manage perfectly well not to be abusive? No. Does it make a suggestion of legally prohibiting TV to prevent women from abusing their kids an utterly ludicrous non-sequitur coming from an ideologue who only pretends to care about science? Yep.

     

    I hope elburto is around so he can see what a straw man looks like. Perhaps it’s because you don’t understand what others are saying, or perhaps it’s because you do understand and just don’t want to face the ugly truth, but for whatever reason you’re failing rather hard here. As it relates to the study, no one would be interested in the segment that doesn’t abuse their children. Rather, if we were going to conduct such a study in the same vein as the one the authors conducted, we would only deal with the segment of women who have been abusive to their children, and then run a uni/bi/multi-variate analysis to determine if TV played a role in that abuse and, if so, what types of shows were more likely to cause women to be abusive than others. That would be a perfectly legitimate scientific study, much like the one the authors ran. Of course, since you are an ideologue, then you would probably reject it all the same.

     

    No wonder your side continues pushing the notion of “post-abortion depression” and abortion-linked breast cancer. You wouldn’t know how to read a scientific study if your life depended on it.

     

    Coming from the individual who cannot read a simple study and believes that the authors do not understand their own conclusion, this is laughable.

     

    Does it say that abortion is a secondary, tertiary, or quaternary cause either?

     

    Again, who cares? The authors were only interested in abortion history and how it relates, if it relates at all, to child abuse. If you want to know all of that, then perhaps you should fund your own study?

     

    I suppose if you get the number-ary high enough, you might get something—and I’ll consider banning abortion to prevent child abuse once you’ve successfully eliminated all the more likely causes, like, say, unwanted pregnancy.

     

    How do you know an abused child wasn’t wanted? Taking the U.S. as an example, if the root of child abuse is unwanted pregnancy, then shouldn’t the rates of child abuse have gone down after Roe v. Wade as the abortion rate went up, instead of going up as they did?

  • arectaris

    If I may ask, what are you talking about? You all started on me. I made a simple comment, after which about four or five people started on me. And now that you can’t answer the questions posed to you, I’m a troll? Eh, all right. I’ve seen this same thing in the three threads I’ve been in, so I can’t say I’m completely surprised. Is there any pro-lifer around here who doesn’t get accused of being a troll and have their post rated a one? From what I’ve seen, it seems to be a rather common occurrence. 

  • beenthere72

    I haven’t read the study, but here are my own thoughts on why women who have had abortions may be abusive of their born children:  they thought they wanted them, they thought that having children was the right thing to do, good for the marriage, relationship, family, what-have-you, but they really don’t want them.    Part of the reason that I don’t want to have kids is because I fear I would abuse them.     I have never so much as raised my voice to my step daughter, and thankfully she’s never given me reason to, but I do not think I’d treat my own flesh and blood as kindly as I do her.    It’s hard to explain, but it is a feeling I have.   There’s so much pressure to have kids (my mother cried when I said I didn’t want kids).    I think about it often, but I just can’t do it.    

     

    I do not believe for a second that having an abortion suddenly makes a non-abusive woman abusive.   That tendency is already inherent in her. 

  • prochoiceferret

    The study found that abortion history is associated with greater instances of child abuse.

     

    Did it find that abortion history was in any way causative of the abuse?

     

    Those are exact quotes from the study, detailing the goal and the conclusion. I don’t know how you can continue to repeat the same incorrect thing, even when the study says different than what you are saying. Do the authors not know what it is they were researching or how to read their own conclusions? You could go through the entire study and not find where the authors came to the conclusion you say they came to. They found that abortion history is associated with subsequent child abuse, not that abusive women who had an abortion had a prior history of abuse.

     

    They found a correlation between abortion history and subsequent child abuse among women who were already abusive. Every woman in the world who is not abusive could have had an abortion, and the study results would be the same, because they did not look at women who do not abuse.

     

    I hope elburto is around so he can see what a straw man looks like. Perhaps it’s because you don’t understand what others are saying, or perhaps it’s because you do understand and just don’t want to face the ugly truth, but for whatever reason you’re failing rather hard here.

     

    Don’t quit your day job, Bei.

     

    As it relates to the study, no one would be interested in the segment that doesn’t abuse their children.

     

    They would be if they wanted to know whether banning abortions to prevent child abuse had any basis in logic whatsoever.

     

    Rather, if we were going to conduct such a study in the same vein as the one the authors conducted, we would only deal with the segment of women who have been abusive to their children, and then run a uni/bi/multi-variate analysis to determine if TV played a role in that abuse and, if so, what types of shows were more likely to cause women to be abusive than others. That would be a perfectly legitimate scientific study, much like the one the authors ran. Of course, since you are an ideologue, then you would probably reject it all the same.

     

    No, I would reject interpretations of it that mistake correlation for causation and then use that misreading to argue for banning TV, since I’m not logically challenged.

     

    Coming from the individual who cannot read a simple study and believes that the authors do not understand their own conclusion, this is laughable.

     

    Not only do you not know how to read the study, you aren’t even capable of understanding my analysis of it. Let me put it to you in a way a five-year-old can understand it:

     

    You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

     

    http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

     

    Correlation is not causation. But I doubt that would stop you from handing out pirate hats at the next IPCC meeting.

     

    Again, who cares?

     

    Apparently you do, since you’re citing this study as a reason for banning abortion, nonsensical as that is.

     

    How do you know an abused child wasn’t wanted?

     

    I don’t. Where did I say that I knew that?

     

    I do know, however, that the resentment and physical/mental/financial burden associated with a child that you never even wanted in the first place does tend to fray the nerves in a manner that can lead people to become abusive. It doesn’t always do so, and the wantedness of a pregnancy doesn’t always prevent same. But it does tip the scales that way.

     

    Taking the U.S. as an example, if the root of child abuse is unwanted pregnancy, then shouldn’t the rates of child abuse have gone down after Roe v. Wade as the abortion rate went up, instead of going up as they did?

     

    Where did I say unwanted pregnancy is the “root” of child abuse? It’s an aggravating factor, along with a prior history of abuse, unemployment, lack of mental-health care, lack of a social support network, constant stress, and so on.

  • deanna

    It seems that “choice” is just a buzz word. If you don’t agree with them then they ‘vote’ your comment into the twilight zone and call you a troll and a spammer among other colorful adjectives.  Common human courtesy and gentle debating dialogue between adults seems to not be welcome in the world of pro-choice feminism. 

  • ahunt

    Well Deanna…we’ve been at this for so long…and we can lose patience from time to time.

     

    Frankly, I find it particularly frustrating when sincere pro-lifers refuse to acknowledge the methodlologically sound research which refutes pro-life talking points.

     

    And in your case, I have to resist sliding into snark because you just can’t believe that women will often choose their own well being over debilitating self-sacrifice.

  • prochoiceferret

    It seems that “choice” is just a buzz word.

     

    Yep! Along with “freedom,” “liberty,” and “human rights.” Buzz buzz buzz!

  • rebellious-grrl

    deanna, it is about power and control of women. If you control a woman’s fertility you control her. It’s a not so secret agenda by the patriarchal conservative right to control women. They are blatant about their intentions of controlling women’s fertility. The regular posters her can see through the bullshit you and other anti-choice/forced birthers post.

    It’s about power and control of women, especially the law that was passed in South Dakota.

    South Dakota has the unique distinction of introducing and passing the most restrictive laws regarding wait time and pregnancy crisis centers.  Beginning in July, a woman must wait 72 hours after consulting with a physician about an abortion. She also has to visit a registered pregnancy crisis center and listen to these volunteer, non-certified, non-medical personnel give incorrect information about abortions.  These clinics are not subject to privacy laws so a woman’s medical record is no longer private.  She also has to be read a statement written by the legislators about abortion.

     

  • rebellious-grrl

    Thank you Julie – It is about class warfare!

     

    … and this is getting far from the point of the article above, with is about “Basic Equality for Women”, which is about (to me) class warfare, and I would say all these attacks on women’s equity is being a substitute for being a war on poor people in general (both men and women). It’s just easier to attack poor men through poor women.

  • deanna

    You do have a point there. I guess I have naively thought that there was something deep down in women that would make them choose their unborn child over themselves if they only knew the truth about it’s humanness. Sadly, you have enlightened me on the fact that I was wrong about that.  I have a whole new perspective on how deep selfishness really can go and the reality that I guess I just didn’t want to see was that some women will knowingly take the life of their baby, believing that it is indeed a baby, alive and growing, just to suit their own wants. I really never knew that before.  I’m not being sarcastic either. I never realized that.

  • forced-birth-rape

    “choice” is just a buzz word.”    ~ And pro-lifer christians are all about “FORCE” forced vaginal pain on women, little girls, raped women, and raped little girls against their will, because it gives the pro-forced birth christians much pleasure. But that is the world of pro-Forced-birth christianity. Women and little girls are nothing but cunts there.

     

    ~ Feminist are against forced marriage, forced sex, and forced birth. In christian pro-lifer world females are for sex, babies, and serving men, nothing more, nothing less. ~

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ I would rather be aborted then have you for a mother. You are the selfish one. ~

  • deanna

    no you wouldn’t

  • broodstock

    Actually, deanna, I work in an abortion clinic so I know fairly well just what crisis pregnancy centers say precisely because I have to spend a lot of time disseminating that information so patients can make an informed decision.  Not to mention I’ve been given many of the pamphlets from the CPC that the protestors like to hock to our patients and they include some of the most ludicrous information ever.  Even non-medical laypeople can pick up the stench from those heavily worded INACCURATE pamphlets.  Maybe you should consider this – even after receiving the anti-abortion counseling, women still choose abortion.

     

    The difference is that you choose to believe all the anti-abortion nonsense that’s been presented to you (and you sincerely believe it) because it makes it easier to demonize abortion if there’s something dangerous about it – which there absolutely isn’t.  It is one of THE safest out-patient procedures – that’s not up for debate.  The abortion itself does not cause problems – not obeying after-care instructions DOES… just like if you got your tooth pulled and then continued to stick your dirty finger in the socket – it would probably become irritated and possibly infected.  If you disagree with abortion then FINE – but don’t you dare try to dispute the medical FACT – it is not a matter of opinion – and present it to people as a scare tactic which you know very well is exactly what you are doing.

     

    I know exactly what I am advocating for – why do you insist on treating other adults as if they are mentally deficient or incapable of forming thoughts on their own?  Is that because only your position is the correct one? That’s absolutely insulting and if that’s how you talked to the women you “counseled” then you are a horrible person.  

  • deanna

    What about the fact that over 750,000 girls are aborted in the USA every year? They are victims too. Why don’t they count in the feminist world? Don’t they have the right not be forced into a suction machine hose? Don’t they have the right to not be dismembered? You talk about vaginal pain, don’t they have the right to not be painfully killed? They are female, don’t you realize that you are killing what you are fighting for, the rights of females? Or is it that the only ones who really have rights as women are the ones larger enough to do damage to the smaller ones? I told you yesterday that I felt for your pain and what you have been through and I mean that. If I had been there when your attacker hurt you I would have done everything within my power to try and stop him and protect you. In the same way I am trying  in some small token way I guess, try to and protect the unborn children from being attacked. I’m not in this for hate or self service. I’m in it because all humanity matters to me, born and unborn.

  • broodstock

    really, deanna, really?  really?

     

    “selfishness” is a personal definition, i guess, but caring about yourself and your future, and your partner, your potential or existing children …. that’s not selfish… that’s responsible and mature….

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    I have a whole new perspective on how deep selfishness really can go

     

    It can even lead people to found entire nations based on individual rights! Although instead of “selfishness,” they prefer to call it “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.” Has a better ring to it.

     

    and the reality that I guess I just didn’t want to see was that some women will … suit their own wants. I really never knew that before.  I’m not being sarcastic either. I never realized that.

     

    You may want to read some Ayn Rand. It tends to turn most people into douchebags, but in your case, I think it may do some good.

  • prochoiceferret

    no you wouldn’t

     

    Well, isn’t that sweet? You’ve already got the whole telling-women-what-to-do thing down pat, so you may as well start on telling them what to think.

  • broodstock

    This is a really lame argument by the “pro-life” side.  Don’t try to appeal to feminists with the world “female” as if we are cretins who just jump and follow the word.

     

    That’s right, deanna, what about pro-choice people don’t you understand?….  it’s been reiterated enough times in this thread alone.  potential person vs. actual person …. actual person takes precedence. every. single. time.

     

     

  • deanna

    yes really,

    self·ish

      [sel-fish]  Show IPA

    –adjective

    1.

    devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, 
    welfare, etc., regardless of others.
    2.

    characterized by or manifesting concern or care only foroneself: selfish motives.

    regardless of “OTHERS” would include the unborn child. It is there, alive, with a beating heart,
    lungs, fingers, toes, hands, a brain. It is an “other” but it is not regarded. By definition that is selfish.

     

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Watch out for your girls over there Elburto the ku klux klan, and aryan nation promoters are worried sick over the white race. And we all know how American republican christians want to rule the world. ~

    I have heard David Duke hangs out in eastern europe, gross. ~

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMKcRGJqmuY Michael Savage a darling of my republican christian family members.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/04/20/203802/-Michael-Savage:-Kill-100-Million-Muslims,

    “SAVAGE: [Intelligent, Welathy People] are very depressed by the weakness that America is showing to these psychotics in the Muslim world. They say, “Oh, there’s a billion of them.” I said, “So, kill 100 million of them, then there’ll be 900 million of them.” “

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8CWnx948X8  White women make more white babies

     

    ~ These people believe women should be forced to breed more white people. If all white females in the world refused to have sex the American pro-lifers would order us all to be penis raped. ~

  • broodstock

    ooooh a dictionary definition.  good girl gettin all up in the websters.

     

    there is virtue in selfishness, deanna, it’s a word that carries negative connotations only because you lend them to it.  if you can’t care about yourself, how are you ever suppose to cultivate a level of care and genuine interest for someone else?  quit pretending everyone should martyr themselves.  

  • crowepps

    To your astonishment, women actually are people!  And here you always thought they were vending machines — penis in/baby out.

  • forced-birth-rape

     “They are victims too” No they are not!  My mother did not want me, she did not love me, she would not and could not protect me. I was sexually abused the first ten years of my life, my mother did not care. I wish I had been aborted, a fetus can not be raped. You do not give a tiny shit about women, girls, raped women, or raped girls. Not a tiny shit! ~

     

    “you are killing what you are fifhting for, the rights of females?” Bullshit! RAPE is worse then death, a know you old creep i lived it. If I knew my kid was going to be raped i would abort it were it would not have to be. ~

  • deanna

    My argument along with all other pro-lifers is the “potential person” part.  I do not believe that it is a potential person. I believe that it is fully human in the womb and therefore by definition a “person”.  If you’re theory were true then exactly when does it become a “person? Is it when it’s heart begins to beat, or when it has brain waves or when it can feel pain, or when it is viable or is not until it is born? If it’s not a person until after it is born then why do the operate on them while still in the womb? Why do women sing to their unborn children and talk to them? Just when exactly is this arbitrary date that it becomes a person? It can’t be when it can survive on it’s on because that doesn’t make any sense, newborns can’t do that.

    I sumbit to you this line of reasoning. It becomes a “person” to abortion advocates when and only when they decide that they want it. If they want their baby then the name it, get it medical care if necessary in the womb, eat right to try and make sure it’s healthy and protect it at all costs. It’s not an issue of personhood but of love. The real issue is not when life (personhood) begins but when love begins. If you want it and love it then it is a person, otherwise it is not.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Yes I would! ~

  • prochoiceferret

    yes really,

     

    self·ish

     

    Complaining about selfishness in the same country that gave us Jersey Shore is … adorable! And what grade are you in now, Deanna?

     

    It is there, alive, with a beating heart, lungs, fingers, toes, hands, a brain. It is an “other” but it is not regarded. By definition that is selfish.

     

    One of these days, your Mommy or Daddy will have to sit down with you, and explain to you how the health-care industry works. Remember, it’s okay if you cry!

  • broodstock

    yes, pro-choice people either welcome the pregnancy (and potential end result) or they don’t.  and it’s a choice.  not yours.  even self-professed “pro-life” people terminate pregnancies – because they realize their lives are more important than growing one child year after year after year.

     

    so, you’re actually right, in some ways.  but i know i do not consider early pregnancies people.  nor do i place a 20 or 30 or 40 week fetus on an equal level with a woman.  does that mean i devalue babies?  no it doesn’t.  it means i have a sane sense of respect for people with years and years of complex life and relationships, obligations, despairs, tragedies,joys and hopes and destinies to fulfill.  

  • ahunt

    I guess I have naively thought that there was something deep down in women that would make them choose their unborn child over themselves if they only knew the truth about it’s humanness…

     

    Again…it is difficult not to descend into snotty one-liners with you, Deanna.  Women are not inherently saintly, maternal, unthinking martyrs to biology. Women have brains, aspirations, personalities and the ability to evaluate their own circumstances and make rational decisions on behalf of themselves and their families.

     

    Women have been doing so since the dawn of humanity.

  • beenthere72

    When it is viable without needing my uterus to survive.   Something inside a woman’s body doesn’t not count as an addition to the population count of her zip code.   It’s not yet a dependent on your W4.   It is not a qualified child.   

  • ahunt

    What about the fact that over 750,000 girls are aborted in the USA every year? They are victims too. Why don’t they count in the feminist world?

     

    Um…you are insisting that feminists should support nullifying the rights of existing women to temporarily grant those rights to potential women?

  • julie-watkins

    I sumbit to you this line of reasoning. It becomes a “person” to abortion advocates when and only when they decide that they want it. If they want their baby then the name it, get it medical care if necessary in the womb, eat right to try and make sure it’s healthy and protect it at all costs. It’s not an issue of personhood but of love. The real issue is not when life (personhood) begins but when love begins. If you want it and love it then it is a person, otherwise it is not.

    This is close to how I believe society should treat it (the pregnant woman choses) for society to attempt to treat women & men (and poor & rich) as equals, rather than different laws for different people. If not, then society is treating women (& non-rich) as 2nd class. There’s also a conditional aspect. A woman (& her family) might decide they think they can handle an unplanned pregnancy … but then something changes medically or in the external environment, then she might choose termination. I think “acceptance” (wants) is a closer description of the emotion involved than “love”. I’ve read enough descriptions of decisions made when the potential child is loved, but curcumstances are such that abortion is still the choice. These are usually late abortions.

  • broodstock

    by the way deanna, nice blog post about the “feminist piranhas.”  

    1.) please define “reality” when you say no one here has any interest in it.  do you mean a world in which there is no god telling everyone what to do?

    2.) do not make generalizations about how women feel about their abortions.

    3.) feminist propaganda?  be careful, since you abide by religious propaganda.

    4.) congratulations on trying to demonize feminists.  what a boring, tired trope.

  • deanna

    So an adult has more value than a viable baby? Where does that reasoning come from? I think we are all of equal value, or at least we should be. If there were adults, teens, children and infants in a burning building and you had to choose who you would save you wouldn’t pick based on age. You would grab the ones who couldn’t help themselves would you not? The whole point of the pro-life movement is that we all have worth, in God’s eyes and hopefully someday in the eyes of all people. This whole “one person has more worth than another” is the same argument that the Nazis made about the Jews and that plantation owners made about slaves and that whites make about blacks. None of it is a logical argument. Just like skin color or nationality doesn’t determine a persons worth, neither does age.

  • broodstock

    I did look at your website, but it looks like every single other crisis pregnancy website ever.

     

    All of your links to “sources” are right to life committees etc and most of the information is false – like the breast cancer link and ovarian and cervical cancer link.  Bull shite.

     

    I didn’t finish looking around because I’ve seen it before and it’s typical of your “pro-life” propaganda, scare-tactics, and fear mongering.  You mask being a control freak and morality crusader as “concern” for women and children. 

     

    Your religious belief (which is exactly that – a personal belief – i repeat, belief) does not give you license to seek or exert control over everyone else’s life decisions.

  • deanna

    But what about the baby being treated as a second class? As I commented earlier, this is the same reasoning that made the Nazi’s ok with exterminating the Jews and that made plantation owners “own” black slaves and causes racism. The mindset that one person is more valuable than another is the same. All pro-choicers have done is to exchange the “race” reasonings for a person being less than to it being an “age” reasoning. We are all valuable, all of us humans. Not just the “wanted”ones. I have no doubt in my mind that any person on this page would fight fiercely against racism but you embrace your own form of human superiority by stating that a persons worth is based on their age.

  • therealistmom

    For exactly the reasons you just laid out. I would tend to take care of and be responsible for everyone else in my life- my children, my ex-husband- and not do anything for myself. I’m still trying to learn how to take care of myself, do things for me without feeling guilty. Martyrdom helps nobody, and living through others denies yourself.

     

    Women are brainwashed into this mindset, to be the caretakers, to give up everything for others. It is harmful and it is damaging. It contributes to depression and suicide. Real altruism makes one feel better; forced martydom wears you down.

  • broodstock

    Deanna, you still have not commented about the fact that I know CPCs lie ….  get to it, please.

     

    and that’s not even what I said and you know it.  stop trying to pull out the points you feel comfortable arguing.

     

     

  • deanna

    I stated the truth from my viewpoint. That is all. Actually, you guys really have done me a favor. I really do have a new understanding of wher eyou are coming from. Not that I agree with it, or ever will, but I do understand more.

    As far as religious propaganda goes, it’s not propaganda if it’s truth and I happen to believe that it’s truth.

    My goal was not to “demonize” feminists. It was to explain how the whole political view of abortion has changed based on some pretty irrattional thinking. I think that I am right about that.

    The “reality” that I speak of is the reality that the child has worth beyond it’s wanted or unwanted status, that it is fully human and therefore worthy to be protected and that some women (feminists by their own admission on this page) have abortions very selfish reasons. With the “reality” being that you will not admit even to yourself that the child has worth.

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • deanna

    I honestly was not trying to be snotty. I’m sorry if it came off that way. I’m just trying to be honest about how I believed.

  • beenthere72

    As a Jew descended from Poland and Russia, I am deeply offended when forced-birthers compare abortion to the Holocaust.   Don’t go there.

     

    Saperstein: “Comparing the difficult personal decision of a woman whether to terminate an individual pregnancy to the Nazi government’s systematic extermination of six million Jews is an insult, both to the memory of those who perished and to the women who must wrestle with their conscience in making a deeply personal decision..”

     

    http://rac.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=713&pge_prg_id=8154

     


  • julie-watkins

    (That’s what you keep arguing: any pregnant women should consider the fetus within her as a person having rights). There isn’t room in one body for two people’s rights.

    Your attitude leads to common thinking that pregnant women are public property, which is why pregnant women with visible bumps get their belly’s touched without permission and strangers order them around, etc., etc.

    No woman was born wanting to be a woman. Why should we be 2nd class by definition because of our biology, or a slave to the elites because we were born to middle class or poor families? Why is not wanting to cooperate with a sexist/classist system such a Big Moral Problem, … and the sexism/classism of the system isn’t acknowledged?

     

  • deanna

    I’m really thinking that the condescending attitude is not neccessary. I’m simply trying to have a logical discussion about a very important issue. Can we be grown ups now?

  • deanna

    I’m all for caring about myself but boundary lines are drawn when my caring for myself causes another harm or death.

  • deanna

    What you said was that basically you put more worth on a grown woman than you do a “20, 30 or 40 week fetus”. My reply was that thi sis the same mentality that Hitler had. One of us is not worth more than the other even at 2o weeks gestation vs 20 years old.

     

    I really cant answer a lot about the CPC’s that lie. I have never seen one do that, not saying they don’t exist, I just have no personal knowledge of that. However, if they do lie then I think that is wrong. It’s really not necessary because the truth holds it’s own. 

  • deanna

    I don’t think its an insult at all and I am also a descended from the Jewish line. The similarities in the thinking are that one person has value over another. The Nazi’s has value over the Jews therefore they were expendable and in our generation the women have value over the unborn baby so they are expendable. It sounds the same to me.

  • deanna

    Nazi’s had…sorry for the typo

  • ahunt

    You may want to qualify the statement.

  • rebellious-grrl

    deanna it’s pretty damn selfish of you to think you know it all and can tell all women how to live their lives and what to do according to your moral scope. You are a real piece of work. 

    YOU have NO RIGHT to come here and tell us we are selfish for believing  women have the right to bodily autonomy. I think its beyond selfish to stick your nose in other people’s business.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ” Martyrdom helps noboy, ”   “Women are brainwashed into this mindset,”     “to give up everything for others.”

     

    ~ Thank you RealistMom. ~

     

    ~ I believe if mom is not happy, no one is happy. Me and my sister cannot remember a time when our mother was happy, she has never been happy. We all need to speak out for our mothers and tell the world what they have been through because of us, they had a very hard life and job. Me and my sister being born subjugated my mother and put her at the mercy of my father, I know I ruined my mothers life. I would never wish what my mother has been through on any one, I feel so sorry for her. ~

  • prochoiceferret

    I stated the truth from my viewpoint.

     

    The viewpoint that women having control over their own bodies is akin to the Third Reich, but forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term against their will … isn’t.

     

    You have a pretty weird viewpoint.

     

    As far as religious propaganda goes, it’s not propaganda if it’s truth and I happen to believe that it’s truth.

     

    No, that means it’s effective propaganda. Goebbels would be proud.

  • prochoiceferret

    I don’t think its an insult at all and I am also a descended from the Jewish line.

     

    Funny you should mention that… Reform Judaism doesn’t have a problem with a woman’s right to abortion. Perhaps you may want to talk with your rabbi about that, and tell him why his faith is wrong?

  • beenthere72

    I have more value than a developing potential person that is dependent on my organs.  Period.   If I could take it out and hand it to you, I would.   Any progress with that sort of technology?   Get on it!

  • deanna

    There is no such thing as a “potential” woman or female. It is either female or it isn’t other than sex change folks and hermaphrodites. That “potential” human jargon is part of the pro-choice propaganda. It isn’t even backed up by science or the doctors and clinic workers who do the abortions.

    http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25 and

    http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25

    Abortion provider Judith Arcana is quoted saying the following:

    “It is morally and ethically wrong to do abortions without acknowledging what it means to do them. I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.”

    Judith Arcana “Feminist Politics and Abortion in the US” Pro-Choice Forum (Psychology and Reproductive Choice) Sponsored by The Society for the Psychology of Women

  • jrm83

     this is the same reasoning…that made plantation owners “own” black slaves and causes racism.

    Let me guess, you’re descended from “black slaves” so this isn’t offensive either?

  • deanna

    I don’t have a Rabbi but if I did I would definitely tell him he is wrong if he believed in killing babies.

  • beenthere72

    There are numerous sources online that state the Jewish view of abortion.  Here’s one:

     

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

     

    Halacha (Jewish law) does define when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). “…a baby…becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a ‘partial life.’ ” 5 In the case of a “feet-first” delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother’s body.

    Jewish beliefs and practice not neatly match either the “pro-life” nor the “pro-choice” points of view. The general principles of modern-day Judaism are that:

    bullet

    The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life. It gains “full human status at birth only.2

    bullet

    Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus. 

    bullet

    Abortions are permitted to save the mother’s life or health.

    bullet

    With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.

    bullet

    …each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law.5

     

    I’m sorry (not really) that other religions view abortion differently than you do.    You must learn to respect other religions.   And other women.

  • deanna

    No but I have a black son and no it isn’t offensive.

  • deanna

    Since many of you think that pro-lifers are nothing but religious fanatics with some sort of agenda  against women. Here is a link to a website that argues against abortion minus the God part. If you go look at it you will see that being pro-life  is not a religious issue per se but is instead a human rights issue.  

    http://secularprolife.org/publications.php

  • prochoiceferret

    Since many of you think that pro-lifers are nothing but religious fanatics with some sort of agenda  against women. Here is a link to a website that argues against abortion minus the God part. If you go look at it you will see that being pro-life  is not a religious issue per se but is instead a human rights issue. 

     

    Why yes, you don’t have to claim to be a religious fundamentalist to be a sexist misogynist who wants to deny women their most basic of human rights! It just helps, that’s all.

  • deanna

    Likewise you don’t have to be a religious fundamentalist to try and  protect the most basic human right, which is the right to life. It just helps :)

  • ahunt

    Deanna, do you believe that a fertilized ova should be considered a person under the law?

  • therealistmom

    Abortion doesn’t cause harm to “another person”, it ends a pregnancy before a “person” is present.

     

    And lets see… you believe that your beliefes shouldn’t cause harm or death to another person? Perfect! Leave women alone to make the decisions that are best for their lives or health. That was you are harming nobody.

     

    Simple, right?

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ No one has a right to cause some one else genital pain aginst their will, to save a life. Even thouth misogynistic sexual tortures, in other words christian pro-lifers want it that way.

    Thanks for the smiley face, I know how much terrorizing and heaping pain on women, little girs, raped women, and raped little girls brings such joy to the christian forced birther creeps.~

  • ahunt

    Oh, and I imagine that Deanna will lose the pious pacifism toot sweet the second an air breathing loved one is threatened….folks is like that.

     

     

    Hence the need to qualify.

  • ahunt

    I’m comfortable with legitimate viability, for limited rights to “personhood.”

  • deanna

    “I know how much terrorizing and heaping pain on women, little girs, raped women, and raped little girls brings such joy to the christian forced birther creeps.~”

     

    Why do you insist on putting every Christian in the same category? There are bad ones and there are good ones just like there is in every religious and non-religious group that has ever been. There are predators in every group and there are people who care in every group. You cannot define a person that you don’t know based on what group they belong to. Maybe I really do care about people. Maybe that’s why I bother. I’m still praying for you by the way :)

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Why did your pro-rape god not answer my players when I was a little kid? Get over your self, every one knows it is the christians who are going after girls and women. If I keep saying christians maybe james dobson and tony perkins will lose their women torturing money. ~

  • ahunt

    With the “reality” being that you will not admit even to yourself that the child has worth.

     

    Well, given the God-given mechanisms that flush these “children” regularly for any number of reasons, my sense is that God has established a baseline of “worth.”

  • ahunt

    Hmmm. So you are arguing that the rights of all fertile women should be nullified to  preserve the rights of “future” fertile women that will be nullified at puberty? Jus’ checkin.’

  • deanna

    I can’t answer your question about why your prayers weren’t answered when you prayed and I’m not going to patronize you by pretending as if I know the answer to that question. You deserve better than that. But, I will tell you what I do know which is that bad things happen to good people because humans are sinners by nature and they sometimes act out of their flesh and not their hearts. As a result women and children both male and female are abused, people are killed, they rob one another, lie about one another and basically do whatever enters their minds to do. Thats why the Bible says that we are all sinners who have gone astray. Humans do horrible things to each other out of this sin nature. God doesn’t want it to be that way, it just is because of our sin nature that we as humans chose when we turned aginst Him. If God had His way we wouldn’t do things like that to each other. But He will not force us to not sin, it is our choice. As I said, those choices hurt others. Sadly, you were the brunt of someone’s evil choice. The entire new testament is the story of how God sent Jesus to die so that we could be healed from both the sin we do and the pain of the sin that others commit against us. 

    My goal is not to preach to you so that’s all I’m going to say about that right now. I was just trying to answer your question or not answer it really, just give my take on it.  I don’t blame you for being angry or cynical, I imagine that most people would be if they were in your shoes but I am sincerely praying that your heart will be healed some day. You deserve it.

  • ahunt

    So basically, your God is capricious and irrational and just generally not very nice. Got it.

  • deanna

    It’s a spiritual principle. God will not force us to choose the right thing. It is a choice. We have a free will. He created us that way so we could choose for ourselves. If he forced someone to not hurt another then He would be overriding that free will.  Unfortunatley we exercise our free will to hurt others often. 

    As far as Him being “nice” goes. He came to Earth as a man in the form of Jesus Christ and intentionally subjected Himself to beatings, ridicule and ultimately death by crucifixion in order to free us from our sin AND  our pain caused by others. Isaiah 53 says he was put to death for our “sorrows”. In everyother religion known to man the people are expected to die and sacrifice for their God but in Christianity our God died and sacrificed for us. I think that’s pretty nice.

     

     

     

  • deanna

    I re-read my article and realized you were right about some of your complaints so I fixed it. I dont blame you for not caring, just thought that I would let you know.

  • ahunt

    It’s a spiritual principle. God will not force us to choose the right thing. It is a choice. We have a free will. He created us that way so we could choose for ourselves. If he forced someone to not hurt another then He would be overriding that free will.  Unfortunatley we exercise our free will to hurt others often.

     

    I just threw up in my mouth. God will not force us to do the “right” thing but YOU will?  On Spiitual Principle?  God will not answer the prayers of repeatedly vioilated children because to do so would trangress the “free will” of the vile  perpetrators…? On spiritual principle?

     

    “We have a free will.”

     

    “It is a choice”

     

    Ya think?  Welcome to the pro-choice movement.

  • deanna

    Actually you are exactly correct. You do have a free choice, thats part of your free will. You have the choice to choose to do the right thing or you equally have a choice to do the wrong thing. Just like the perpetrator has a choice. Just because he has that choice doesnt mean that he chooses the right thing and just because you have a choice doesn’t mean that you choose the right thing. The perpetrator chooses to sin against a woman to satisfy some selfish need in himself. I have a choice to kill my neighbor but I choose not to. The choice is not the thing to focus on. The thing to focus on is what we do with that choice. Also, every choice good and bad has a consequence. In the abortion world that choice equals death. In the choice to do the morally right thing it equals life. And No, God will not force anyone to choose the right thing. Thus your ability to abort your child and the perpetraters ability to rape. This is why we need a savior because we are entirely to screwed up to help ourselves and this is why God sent a savior because he knows that.

  • ahunt

    Oh Geez, Deanna, I can’t take this shot. It is too easy and I swore to be better.

     

    So I will leave you with this question…why did God  fashion the female physiology to naturally abort so many pregnancies?…feel free to look it up.

  • prochoiceferret

    This is why we need a savior because we are entirely to screwed up to help ourselves

     

    But not so screwed-up, it seems, to “help” others by dismissing, demonizing, and belittling their beliefs and priorities in life, and supporting legal measures that do the same.

     

    and this is why God sent a savior because he knows that.

     

    Something tells me your “savior” will be wearing a white coat… and there won’t be just one of them.

  • deanna

    Thats not God’s doing. All sin, pain, sickness, disease, miscarriages, death, etc are a direct result of the fall of man. Meaning that when God created us he made us to work perfectly (our bodies) and be perfect (no sin nature) but he didn’t want a bunch of mindless robots following him out of duty. So he gave us a choice in the matter and we (as a species) chose to sin. When we made that choice we were choosing to love our flesh rather than love God. So, as a result our bodies are no longer perfect and we inherited a sin nature. John 10:10 says that the thief (satan and his demonic helpers) comes to kill, steal and destroy. Because we chose to obey our flesh and sin satan has a legal right to mess with us. The killing, stealing and destroying is his thing, not God’s. God gets blamed for all of that but it’s really His enemy and ours that does it to us. Because we sinned our bodies are now dying. (Science will tell you that as soon as you are born you begin the dying process.) Therefore they don’t always perform correctly. The good news is that God realizes that we are “but flesh” and as I said before, are to stupid to help oursleves so He sent Jesus to earth as a man and put all of our sin on Him. Because God is Holy and sin cannot enter heaven there must be an atonement for that sin, to purify us so that we can go to heaven. Jesus’ death was that atonement. The Bible says that when a person turns to Jesus, repenting (turning from) for their sin that atonment is applies to them. The whole “our bodies don’t function correctly thing” has two answers. The first being that when Jesus died His stripes (beatings) bought our physical healing and so physical miracles are possible. Also, the Bible says that when we get to heaven that we will get rid of this old dying body and get a brand new one that workd properly. So, for every one of our issues God has an answer. We just have to seek Him to see what those answers are.

    I don’t expect you guys to just take this hook line and sinker. But if you want to test to see if I am telling you the truth just simply ask God to show you. Ask Him openly, “If this crazy lunatic pro-life freak is telling me the truth then show me and if shes lying have a meteor hit her house.” I think you will be surprised. If you have a Bible read the Book of John and you will see that God really does love us. 

     

  • deanna

    Ok that seriously made me laugh out loud. Thats’ great! White coats LOL. You may be right about that one. I probably am a little dingy. But, what if I’m not…what if I’m right? It’s worth at least asking about the meteor :)

  • colleen

    Shorter ‘deanna’

     

    “I’m a wonderful self sacrificing person, you horrible sinners should want to be just like me. The fact is that  any nonsense I believe makes it true and I’m not at all interested in anything you have to say that might cause me to doubt what I believe so I’m going to stick my (metaphorical) fingers in my ears and say la la la while I engage in a bitch fit ”   is not what normal people call a logical discussion. It is what we call a ‘troll’ although not a very original  one.

  • colleen

    I don’t expect you guys to just take this hook line and sinker. But if you want to test to see if I am telling you the truth just simply ask God to show you. Ask Him openly, “If this crazy lunatic pro-life freak is telling me the truth then show me and if shes lying have a meteor hit her house.”

    You’re asking us to pray that a meteor hits your house because then when a meter does not hit your house that’s supposed to somehow prove that you’re telling the truth?

    So, did you vote for Sarah Palin?

  • deanna

    No, that’s not what I mean at all. I suppose if you heard on Cnn that a meteor hit some crazy lady’s house in the south then you would know that I was just nuts. It not hitting proves nothing. The proof will be when God shows each one personally that He is real and that He really does Love you.

    As far as Sarah Palin goes….I’ll never tell :) But I will tell you this. I haven’t always been smart about who I have voted for but I can gurantee you it will be different next time. I’m about frustrated with the whole lot of them, politicians I mean.

     

  • deanna

    “But not so screwed-up, it seems, to “help” others by dismissing, demonizing, and belittling their beliefs and priorities in life, and supporting legal measures that do the same.”

    Dismissing (No, I gave you the reasons that I didn’t agree with you, valid ones)

    Demonizing (Well, in a way I guess that makes sense seeing that I believe that abortion is one of the great evils of humanity)

    Belittling (The only way that I know of to not “belittle” the belief that abortion is ok would be to  agree with it and I can’t do that)

    Supporting Legal Measures (If I didn’t then I would be the queen of all hypocricy because I wouldn’t live what I talk. Also, I believe that human life needs to be                                                     protected legally)

     

    But just because I take a stand against something you do, or advocate for, even if it is a vocal stand, that does not mean that I  believe that you as individuals are not important. You are not my enemy. You are people, with all sorts of pasts and pain, just like everyone else. You all deserve to be loved and cared for. No, you are not my enemy. Abortion is what I fight, not people.

  • deanna

    FYI, If it matters to any of you  that read my article about feminists (not being sarcastic, I just understand that to some of you, it seriously does not matter) I have edited the article(and my blog as a whole, by adding some non-religious pro-life links for those who do not belive in God who visit my blog) to contain some things that I have learned from you guys. I really have learned some things. Just FYI.

    http://www.shoutingitloud.com

  • prochoiceferret

    No, you are not my enemy. Abortion is what I fight, not people.

     

    Funny—to women with an unwanted pregnancy, that is a distinction without a difference.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ As someone who wanted, tried, and could not say no this will not happen to my body, i find you to be a vile-pervert-sex-offender. You do not give a shit about women and girls you just want to please men, and if it brings tears to women and little girls faces so be it. Go back to your self-important blog. No one goes there, that is the reason you keep coming here being a chronic troll. Your christian head is so far up your christian ass. ~

     

    ~ It was not so long ago that you people were burning women alive by pretending they were witches, this is just another christian attack on the female race, christians have always used womens reproduction to handicap, subjugate, control, and hurt them. ~

    ~ All pro-lifers are penis-worshiping, vagina-pain-mongering, sexually-sadistic, sadomasochistic, misogynistic, tortures of the female race, who heap physical, and emotional pain, and subjugation on the female race to give themselves pleasure. ~

     

    ” I believe that abortion is one of the great evils of humanity)” ~ And it is well documented that pro-lifers think rape is glorious, they capitalize off of it. I would rather go to hell then be one of you. ~

    ~ I believe christianity is one of the great evils of humanity) see how that works deanna. ~

  • deanna

    Again, I understand your anger, and most definitely understand your mistrust of christians. You are right there are a lot of fake Christians out there that hurt people, as sad as that is. Likewise there are a lot of non-christians that hurt people. But, at any rate, I personally as a human being who just happens to be a Christian care about you. I know that you don’t believe that and that’s ok.  I will still pray for you because you matter.

  • deanna

    It may not seem true but it is true. I can care about you guys as people, as human beings with worth and not like or agree with your choice.  

  • ahunt

    Oooookay….so you are telling us that natural female physiology is the result of sin? That “God” did NOT design the female body to naturally prevent fertilized ovum from implanting in the uterus while breast feeding…that if God had his way…women of child bearing age would be fertile immediately after giving birth?

     

    http://www.slate.com/id/2196784/

     

    Breast-feeding, like oral contraception, alters a woman’s hormonal balance, thereby suppressing ovulation, fertilization, and, theoretically, implantation. These results were documented in a 1992 research paper, “Relative Contributions of Anovulation and Luteal Phase Defect to the Reduced Pregnancy Rate of Breastfeeding Women.” The authors concluded: “The abnormal endocrine profile of the first luteal phase offers effective protection to women who ovulate during lactational amenorrhea within the first 6 months after delivery.” In other words, breast-feeding prevents pregnancy despite ovulation.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ If you want to cause me extreme vaginal pain against my will, or cause a girl i care about extreme vaginal pain agianst her will, you do not care about me, you are my rapist. ~

  • deanna

    You mistake me caring for you and me caring for unborn children with me wanting to hurt you. They are not the same thing. There are ways to have babies without extreme vaginal pain anyway. I had two and I also had two D & c’s from miscarriages. So been there, done that. An abortion is way more painful than these, or at least I have been  told by women who have had abortions that they are extremely painful for the woman. So, in that sense abortion causes extreme vaginal pain even more so than birth in some cases.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Maybe you have a very “big” vagina! They way pro-life women Phyllis Schlafly, Sharron Angle, Sarah Palin, think penis rape too, too sexy, I have been believing this about you pervs for a long time. Everything you say is a massive lie, you are vile. ~

     

    “abortion causes extreme vaginal pain even more so than birth in some cases.” ~ Lying christian woman alert!!! ~

  • forced-birth-rape

    “natural female physiology is the result of sin?”

     

    http://new.exchristian.net/2010/09/mommy-does-god-hate-women.html

  • deanna

    No, seriously, you can go to any post abortive woman site out there, even some who are still pro-chocie  or look on you tube and there is story after story of women who say that their abortion was extremely painful. I just read one last night where a woman said that she passed out from the pain. I have not had an abortion so I don’t know firsthand  but I can’t imagine why they would lie about that. Some woman can’taford the extra money that they charge for anesthesia so I know that is painful. There is no way it isn’t. One of my children was born natural and yes that was painful, with the others I had an epidural(sp) and that one was not painful. So, my point was that there are ways to give birth that are no more painful than an abortion would be. Especially an abortion without pain killers. It’s a fact, not a Christian lie.

  • rebellious-grrl

    deanna, I’ve had an abortion and it was no more painful than having my period. I was very relieved after having an abortion because I didn’t want to be pregnant. I’ve had no long term problems from having an abortion.

  • rebellious-grrl

    One more thing. My friends that have had abortions and then later went on to have children said childbirth was MUCH more painful. Especially for my friend that had a c-scection and almost bled to death.

  • deanna

    Natural childbirth is painful, no doubt about that, but there are medications that can be taken that make it not bad at all, just pressure. But the point was, she was saying that because I was a christian pro-lifer, that I wanted her to hurt in childbirth,or something akin to that and my point was that childbirth is not always painful and abortions are not always pain free, and it has nothing to do with my christianity. I think that we can all agree on that point.

  • deanna

    But they are not all that way and like wise not all births are horrible. that was my point.

  • deanna

    Ex Christians are generally hurting people that have been hurt by someone else’s evil choice’s. Unfortunately, sometimes it is people who claim to know Jesus. Yes, Christians hurt people, and there are tons who claim the name of Christianity but know nothing of the reality of living a life loving people. Trust me  when I say I’ve been whacked by some of the most devious ones. But, you can’t put us all in the same box any more than you can put all muslims in he same box or all jews, etc. We are all individuals. It was not the religion of Christianity that hurt you, it was a person/s, an individual. Just because they claimed to be a christian didn’t make them one. A person can go to church but that doesn’t make them a Christian any more than me going to MCDoanlds makes me a hamburger or going into my garage makes me  a car. It’s what you do with what you know that matters. Apparently the people that hurt you didn’t know that.  And  I am sorry about that. On behalf of all christians everywhere, real and fake, stupid and ignorant, mean and nasty, I apologize to you for what happened and I genuinely say that I am sorry. I don’t expect you to forgive, that that part isn’t easy, maybe someday that will come but it’s ok. I am sorry that someone who claimed to be a christian mis-represented God to you by their actions also. As I have said before, it is very sad what we as humans do to each other. I wish you hadn’t been the brunt of it and I mean that.

  • crowepps

     because I was a christian pro-lifer, that I wanted her to hurt in childbirth,or something akin to that

    You’re missing the point.  What she is saying is that your insistence, rooted in your Christian morality, that the possibility a fetus might exist and might survive to birth and might survive birth is SO IMPORTANT in your personal opinion that YOU GET TO ENFORCE THE CONTINUATION OF PREGNANCY ON UNWILLING WOMEN and ignore their pain, triggers for her the pain of her childhood trauma when she was caused pain by OTHER Christians who also thought her pain was irrelevant because she was ‘only’ a female and ‘supposed to’ be used for sex/breeding.  The point is that YOUR OPINON about whether childbirth is more painful or less painful than abortion doesn’t matter because the deciding factor is instead HER OPINION on that question.

  • crowepps

     I will still pray for you because you matter.

    Seriously, to say that you “understand” her mistrust of christians and pretend you grasp what it means that the person who assaulted JUSTIFIED it based on Christianity and insisted that God DESIGNED her for the purpose of being raped would preclude your grossly insulting her by ending with this particular piety which sums up: ‘so I’m going to bring you back to God’s attention even though LAST TIME He totally ignored your pain and desperation.”

  • crowepps

    You mistake me caring for you and me caring for unborn children with me wanting to hurt you.

    The relabeling of “trying to force you into your God-given restrictive gender role of breeder for your own good” as “caring” is particularly nauseating.

     

    I’ll acknowledge that you don’t “want” to hurt her.  You are totally indifferent to whether or not your actions cause her pain so long as you can fetishish reproduction.

    They are not the same thing. There are ways to have babies without extreme vaginal pain anyway. I had two and I also had two D & c’s from miscarriages. So been there, done that. An abortion is way more painful than these, or at least I have been  told by women who have had abortions that they are extremely painful for the woman. So, in that sense abortion causes extreme vaginal pain even more so than birth in some cases.

    Why would you rely on the possibly exaggerated claims of a couple of women  telling ‘pity me’ stories that their abortions were terribly painful and reject the evidence of your own D&C abortions?  Surely the abortions you had yourself would be the best possible evidence of what they are like.  It’s exactly the same procedure whether it’s consequent to a miscarriage or done for others reasons.

  • deanna

    No, I’m not indifferent to wether my actions cause her pain.  If my “action” of being pro-life and saying so hurts people then I seriously don’t know what to do about that. I can’t pretend as if I agree with abortion to make it easier on someone. As far as I know I have said nothing else that showed indifference to her pain, on the contrary I have tried to console her, however miniscule those efforts may matter to her.

     

    With my D&C’s I was under general anesthesia so I remember only a little about them. And yes, I am aware that they are the same in an early pregnancy but we are not just talking about early pregnancies. One of the topics of this article that got my attention was the author getting ruffled up over limits on gestational age in abortions. I have an entire book of documented cases of mid and late term abortions that were devastating to women including death, pain, hysterectomies, and all sorts of other things being the result. There are over 100,000 late term abortions per year ( source link below) and there are many many documented cases of these women telling horror stories about these abortions. So again, my point is that childbirth can hurt orit can be easy and abortion can hurt or be easy. The reason I was saying this was because “forced” was saying somehting like christians who force her to have a baby love vaginal pain. My response was that vaginal pain also happens during abortions so if the goal is to avoid all vaginal pain then why avocate for abortions. It makes no sense to rail about the one and not the other.

    http://secularprolife.org/files/abortion_by_the_numbers.pdf

  • beenthere72

    Ditto.  I had my first one about 20 years ago (private OBGYN).  Though I did get an infection but nothing some antibiotics couldn’t treat.   And I had a 2nd one about 5 years later (at PP) that made me no more crampier than a bad period.   

  • deanna

    Crowepps, a person has the ability to feel empathy for another person even if they have never been through that specific thing. I was not at the world trade center on 9-11 and still had empathy for those persons.. I was not in Japan during the earthquake but still had empathy for the people involved. And I certainly do understand her RIGHT to mistrust Christians. Not only do I understand it but I don’t blame her at all. As far as me “bringing her back to God” goes all I can tell you is that the people who hurt her were obviously demonized and blaming their actions on God. God did not do that to her. Her anger at God for not getting her out of it is also understandable and as I plainly said, I have no answer for that other than we are allowed to have a free will and we exercise those free wills EVEN when God does not want us to. Thus we have murder, rape, incest, abortion, stealing, and a host of other things that we do to each other against what God plans for us. His plan was for her to have a great life full of love but some pervert stole that from her, not at God’s wishes but at the pervert’s. Again, I am very sorry that it happened to her and I will continue to pray that she find healing.

  • deanna

    No, I’m talking about miscarriage and stillbirths.

  • deanna

    I am arguing that no one, not even a tiny little pre born human should die for anyone else’s right to anything except their own life.

  • crowepps

    I don’t think anybody in the world would have a problem with you “praying for” somebody.  Considering the circumstances in this particular case, it is SANCTIMONTIOUS and ALL ABOUT YOU to announce your intent to do so.  It comes across as an insult and an assault.

     

    I’ve heard similar claims that ‘those bad people weren’t REAL Christians’ for years.  Unfortunately, you all have the same stigmata: same churches, same scripture, same insistence that God has given you the right to tell other people what to do.  I know lots and lots of real Christians, none of whom claim any right to judge, to condemn, or to tell other people what to do.  Those of you who want to boss everybody around are going to continue to all be birds of a feather.  Her point is that her rapist insisted on the use of her vagina, and you claim a right to insist on the use of her uterus.  I agree with her, I don’t see any difference between the two of you either.

  • colleen

    The reason I was saying this was because “forced” was saying somehting like christians who force her to have a baby love vaginal pain.

    At least three people have explained her position to you. It’s impossible to believe you don’t understand just as its impossible to believe that you ‘care’.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ American Christians have decided that the two worst things in the world is abortion and GLBT rights, these things has nothing to do with heterosexual men, shocker. ~

    ~ American Christians spend millions of dollars a year on trying to force women, girls, raped women, and raped girls the world over into breeding against their will. Meanwhile children all over the world are being trafficked into sex-slavery, pro-lifers say, SO! Leave them there, lets ad to the list. ~

    ~ A fetus cannot feel pain, physical or emotional, a fetus does not have to watch its mother get beat, a fetus does not have to look in its mothers eyes and see the hate for it, a fetus cannot be raped, a fetus unlike a child does not have to dread sex every day. But all of us real people who actually do suffer, can just suffer. The pro-lifers use a unwanted fetus as an instrument to emotionally terrorize, and sexually torture its mother. ~

    ~ If my mother had aborted me it would not have mattered, as it is she had me and we were both used and abused, we were both trapped, are we happy today? Hell no, i wish my mother had aborted me and saved her self and me. ~

    ~ When I was little my best friends tough big sister got pregnant at eighteen, she was always so confident, one night my beast friends sister woke her up and asked her to get in the bed with her, my friend was a bony eleven-year-old, my friends sister was scared, she was scared of being pregnant and giving birth. And pro-lifers are satisfied with girls and women being terrorized with forced birth and pregnancy. Fetuses are supposed to be given everything at the expense of women and girls physical, emotional, and future well-being. I would rather be aborted, but then I do not consider the female race nothing but cunts. ~

    ~ To day I cannot go hook up to my mother and use her body against her will to save my life, I cannot threaten her vagina to save my life. If I attempt to she has every right to kill me in self-defense. But if I could do things like that to my mother then my father might have been asked to do things like that, every one has the right to come out a females vagina, that is were their rights end. ~

    Forcing the female race to breed against their will as if they are a dog in a puppy-mill does not make one a good person, it makes one a sex-slave-driver. ~

  • colleen

    As far as me “bringing her back to God” goes all I can tell you is that the people who hurt her were obviously demonized and blaming their actions on God.

    OK. So by “demonized” you mean something like “under demonic influence”?

     

  • deanna

    I don’t agree with you that it is sanctimontious, but I do see how it could be taken that way by someone with such deep pain. I certainly didn’t mean it that way. But I can assure you that my concern is not about me. That has nothing to do with where I am coming from.

     

    I can see where you draw the conclusions that you do about christians from, pro-life ones to be exact. it may appear as if we are all the same but we aren’t. I am pro-life because I care about people, born and unborn alike. In your perception “to care” means to agree that it is ok to kill a human. I cannot do that so I guess we disagree. Does that make me a bad Christian? Absolutely not!. What it makes me is a person that is doing the word instead of just spewing it out. I also, have not judged or condemned anyone on  here what I have spoken is truth. One person has no right kill another human! Period! If that statement makes you feel condemned or judged then I don’t know what to tell you. It is fact.

    Also, why does everyone jump on the “she’s a christian bandwagon” and get obsessed with that. I was speaking plainly about fetal development and the baby’s right to life. If I was a non-christian I woudl say the same exact thing. So, lets take Christianity and that whole argument out of the scenario. There are secular pro0life groups, atheist pro-life groups and feminist pro-life groups who say the same exact thing that I say about the babies.  http://secularprolife.org/publications.php     http://www.feministsforlife.org/   http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

    These are a few links and there are many more. You guys want to use my christianity to disqualify my statements about the babies and that is not even logical. Look at the facts, not me or my religion. The facts are the same across the board. It is a human, you kill it, that is wrong! That is my stand! 

    Also, “I” am not asking to “use” her uterus. What I am pointing out is that the child she is carrying has a right to live. Her uterus does not trump the child. That is my stand and the stand of all other pro-lifers across the world.

    As far a “bossing” everyone around goes. If you saw your neighbor beating the hooey out of his kid you would try to stop it would you not? You would yell at him, try to point out that it’s not ok, and most likely call the cops. I see abortion as much worse than a child being beaten so why wouldn’t I try to to point out that it’s not ok and try to get laws passed against it. What if your neighbor came back and said, “don’t boss me, don’t condemn me, don’t judge me.” You would look him straight in the eyes and say, “I’m sorry sir but it’s not about you, it’s about the fact that you were beating the crap out of your kid. So, what I am doing is looking at you and saying, I’m sorry mam, but it’s not about hurting your feelings, about judging you, or about making you feel condemned, it’s about the fact that you are killing your kid!


  • deanna

    yes, thats exactly what I mean.

  • prochoiceferret

    I am arguing that no one, not even a tiny little pre born human should die for anyone else’s right to anything except their own life.

     

    So you’re in favor of mandatory living organ donation, then. Why are you still here in the U.S.? I think you’d find China much more to your liking!

  • prochoiceferret

    yes, thats exactly what I mean.

     

    Clearly, then, you are under demonic influence. No one would ever confuse your actions with those of Christ, or even a Christ-like figure. I suggest you find an exorcist, and pass on the split-pea soup.

  • deanna

    yes, I care.

  • deanna

    That doesnt make any sense to me at all. Im sorry, but you are going to have to explain that one.

  • colleen

    What don’t you understand? The split pea reference?

     

  • deanna

    So, I’m wondering something. Why is it that I came to this site to comment about an article and somehow over the course of a few days the argument has gone from talking about abortion and the value (or lack there of)of a child to talking about Deanna and her caring, lack of caring, christianity, if I’m a good christian or a bad christian, demon possession, my vagina, and any any other fringe issue that could possibly be brought up? This discussion is not about me, or at least it shouldn’t be, it’s about the fact that humans are dying in abortion clinics everyday. (and before anyone starts to ya ya about how I made it about me and I’m self centered and etc etc etc, please don’t because anyone with a brain working on one cylinder can look back at these comments and see that wasn’t the way it went down. So, shall we get back onto the origional topic? Which if I remember correctly was, that babies are being dismembered and their brains sucked out. 

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ No you do not! Do you get paid for every post? ~

  • deanna

    No, the, Deanna’s demonized because she cares about babies part.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ My vagina is not a fringe issue, you vile, pro-rape, christian-jerk!!!!! Go back to your own pro-female torturing blog! ~

  • deanna

    I said MY BODY Parts, not yours!  And yes, what you have been through is very important. I was talking about that.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Should girls under the age of eighteen who get pregnant by way of rape be forced to give birth against their will? ~

  • crowepps

    That’s the risk of showing up at a blog that’s seen your sort before, claiming you’re a moral authority and that you have a right to convince, or force, other people to follow your rules.

     

    There isn’t any reason to investigate the character of a person whose position is ‘since this is a free country I’m going to let the people that are directly involved in the situation who best know the facts make their own decision’.

     

    There are LOTS of reasons to check up on people who try to shame and blame, guilt-trip, control and promote the idea that others should ruin their health or be allowed to die in service of a fringe ideology.  See, the thing is, Deanna, Christ may have ascended to Heaven, but He didn’t put YOU in charge of everything before he left.  As a matter of fact, if you want to be strictly Biblical, you’re supposed to be home taking care of those kids, avoiding the contamination of ‘worldly’ things like the internet, and waiting for your husband to tell you what to think and believe.

  • deanna

    You know, I do have an answer to that question but I hesitate on dicussing it because of what you have been through. I think it would be insensitive of me. So, if you want to just look at this website and see what this lady has to say about that issue.

    http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/index.html

  • colleen

    I think it would be insensitive of me.

    Right but a link to a  ‘pro-life’ shill who makes her living talking about how rape victims should be forced to carry pregnancies that resullt from their rapes to term is the apex of sensitivity.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ No thank you. I am sure you think raped children should be forced to give birth, no surprise there. ~

  • deanna

    Ha ha! Yeah, I am home with my kids, my husband is with me and he doesn’t usually tell me what to do because I might bite him plus he’s just a nice guy. 

    And no Jesus didn’t put me in charge but he did say is “Speak out for the one who cannot speak, for the rights of those who are doomed.” Proverbs 31:8. Another translation says “those who are perishing”. So actually I am doing exactly what I was told to do, not out of obligation, but because I don;t want to see any more babies die.

    Also you said, “claiming you’re a moral authority and that you have a right to convince, or force, other people to follow your rules. “.

    I’m no moral authority but I do know that it is immoral to kill another human being. You don’t have to be an authority to know that. Also, no one including me can force anyone to do anything, All I can do is present the facts and you do with it what you will. For me NOT to try and convince you to let your child live would be immoral since I believe, and science backs me up, that it is fully human.

  • colleen

    WHich if I remember correctly was, that babies are being dismembered and their brains sucked out.

    Perhaps your demons are interfering with your thinking and memory because this was not the original topic. You have derailed the original topic with your carping about “obvious demonization”, twisted notions about God’s Will, FBIR’s non existent pregnancy and what a wonderful unselfish, caring person you are especially in comparison to us “feminist piranhas” and so on. The ORIGINAL topic was Basic Equality for Women–Denied .

    I understand that this isn’t a topic that you have any interest in and have never spent more than ten seconds thinking about but the fact remains. This is not your blog .

  • deanna

    It isn’t my blog, correct you are, but they have the comments section on here for a reason, so that people, I am assuming anyone that happens by, can comment if they feel like it, I did, and yes, I was surrounded by you guys gnashing at me. But I’m a big girl, I can take it. Actually as I said on my blog, I have learned a lot from you guys. Seriously.

     

     

     

     

  • deanna

    The link I provided IF and only if she WANTED to look at it is about someone concieved from rape.  I thought she would have a perspective on it that may answer Forced questions without me going into it. 

  • colleen

    The link I provided IF and only if she WANTED to look at it is about someone concieved from rape.

    It was a link to a particularly obnoxious ‘pro-life’ shill who makes her living off people like you by capitalizing on the fact that her mother was raped and that her extra special existence justifies forcing all rape victims, no matter how young, to carry the children of their rapists to term. You folks have no sense of basic decency.None.

    But it is a good example of what was meant in that comment about your demonization (although hardly the only good example0.

  • broodstock

    Well, I am a clinic worker and I refer to it as “potential life” and so does abortion doctor Susan Wicklund and so do the people I work with…. so there goes that one.

    It is not “pro-choice propaganda” (I’m beginning to wonder if you really understand what the word means) – it really is potential life.  Not every egg hatches, not every seed becomes a tree, not every pregnancy becomes a baby.

    Maybe I  believe it is potential life just like you believe in God.  Uhoh.

    You seem to like to use these quotes from doctors and workers as if proves something.  It doesn’t prove anything, especially if you take it out of the context in which it was said, or from the viewpoint of the speaker.  You’ve taken all these quotes and made them mean whatever you want to – just like people do with Bible verses, which is perverse.

  • prochoiceferret

    Well, I am a clinic worker and I refer to it as “potential life” and so does abortion doctor Susan Wicklund and so do the people I work with…. so there goes that one.

     

    Ooh! Ooh! Maybe you can answer for Deanna once and for all whether abortion is “murder,” and whether a ten-week-old fetus is a “baby.” She seems to place great weight on the views of the folks who actually work in the clinics!

  • deanna

    Ok ladies it’s been real, I’m going to slither back on over to my own side of the arena now. You guys have truly been educational. I won’t make you mad by saying any of that God loves you, peace be with you, I’m praying for you departing stuff :)  I ENCOURAGE (not tell you, or demand, or legislate) you to go to this website http://secularprolife.org/ and check it out. Give it just 15 minutes of your thought time. If you still don’t agree then ok.  Keep watching CNN for that meteor to hit some crazy ladies house down in the south and IF YOU WANT TO (not telling, demanding or legislating) keep asking God to make himself real to you. If you want to talk you know where to find me. I will check in every so often to make sure you guys are still on the job….don’t miss me too bad….. and just so you know…I like piranhas!  Peace!

  • crowepps

    And for a persuasive look at just WHY equality remains so far away –

    Sexism is a series of socialized and habitual non-responses to the behavior of women as long as that behavior follows very limited and proscribed path; and it is equally a set of socialized, habitual, subjective negative response (that may or may not lead to actions) that men experience whenever women’s behavior moves outside this same, confining, oppressive, and exploitative set of expectations.

    “Letter to the Symposium on Women In Science Fiction, Under the Control, for Some Deeply Suspect Reason, of Jeff Smith” — Samuel R. Delany

    http://books.google.com/books?id=7JQBknc-R7UC&lpg=PR1&dq=jewel%20hinged%20jaw&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q&f=true

  • therealistmom

    Stick the flounce.

  • arekushieru

    Umm, because that’s not what she was referring to?  She says you’re demonized because none of your ANTICS are Christ-like.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Happy! Arekushieru is back! Are you ok Arekushieru? I missed you. ~

  • arekushieru

    “For the rights of those who are doomed”…?  Sorry, but, if anything, Jesus was talking about pregnant women.  Pregnancy is the second leading cause of death, worldwide.  Women’s rights are being attacked, DAILY, by anti-choicers such as yourself.  NO one gets the right to co-opt another person’s organs against that person’s will, not EVEN to save their lives.  Yet feoti are, apparently, the only ones who should be granted that right. Why?  I have yet to see one anti-choicer that was able to answer that question. The only (somewhat) reasonable conclusion I’ve seen presented, here, is dependancy, since a fetus is neither defenceless, innocent or a human being/person.  But, even that one, still fell far short of the mark. Since rights aren’t abrogated due to one’s increasing levels of independancy.  

     

    It is NOT immoral to kill another human being.  (Even if abortion were killing. Hint: It’s not; But I’ll get into that later….)  Self-defence is one example. Ken Parks is an individual I like to bring up because it was determined he was sleepwalking when he killed his mother-in-law.  Yet, according to anti-choicers, his mother-in-law would NOT have had the right to defend herself.  Why? Because Mr. Parks legally lacked intent to do anything, just as a fetus does.  Yet his mother-in-law DID have that right, AND the right to use deadly force to prevent the attack.  If you say it is immoral for a woman to have an abortion, you are equally saying that it was immoral for the mother-in-law to defend herself using deadly force.  Abortion, itself, isn’t killing, because abortion terminates a pregnancy, which is equivalent to the implantation of the fetal portion of the placenta into the uterus, NOT the fetus itself….  Abortion isn’t killing, because abortion, itself, simply removes the fetus from the biological life support that is sustaining it.  A fetus dies due to incompatibility with life upon separation from the uterus.  Iow, killing vs letting die.

    ProChoicers know that a fetus is human.  ProChoicers just also know that a fetus doesn’t deserve MORE rights than any other human beCAUSE it is human.  Human = human being/human NOT human being/person.  Thanks.   

  • prochoiceferret

    Ok ladies it’s been real, I’m going to slither back on over to my own side of the arena now.

     

    Knowledge is power, and those apples were delicious.

  • arekushieru

    Wrong.  You value the fetus over the woman.  We, rightly, value the woman over the fetus.  I think you should read this very carefully…. That is, if you are still lurking as you said you would…. Take a scale with two arms of equal length.  Now, take several bowls of equal size.  Place one bowl marked existence on the arm marked ‘fetus’.  Place the rest of the bowls, including one marked ‘existence’ on the arm marked ‘woman’.  Fill the fetal side, with liquid marked ‘value/respect’ first.  Then fill the bowls on the other side, at the same rate and time, until the scale is balanced.  I think you will find that the bowls on the woman’s side hold less respect than the one on the fetal side.  Guess what?  That’s what happens every time you try to value a fetus just as much as a woman.

    Btw, the Nazis had value over the Jews, therefore they were expendable.  To the ProLifers, fetuses have value over women, thus women are expendable.  Nazis denied rights to the Jews because they were considered inferior and granted themselves more rights because they considered themselves SUperior.  ProLifers deny rights to women because they consider them inferior and would grant more rights to feoti because they consider them SUperior.  Btw, Hitler was both ProLife for German women and ProAbortion for Jewish women.  NEITHER of which is ProChoice.

     

  • arekushieru

    I won’t be on as often as I usually am, unfortunately.  I have a computer curfew.  But I’ll try to respond to as many topics and comments as I can!  Other than that, my only quibble is with the fact that I was unable to access this site for 24 hours last Thursday.  Was there something going on, then?

    Anyways, it’s nice to be missed and know you’re appreciated.  Thanks, FBIR and know the sentiment is returned!  :)

  • rebellious-grrl

    Glad you’re here Arekushieru. I missed you too. I hear you on the computer curfew. I have my “self-impossed” limitations on posting. I can’t post much during this time of year because it’s spring and most of my time is spent outside gardening. Can’t type with dirt all over my hands.

    Despite your computer curfew I hope you will still be posting. I will be posting when my hands are dirt free.

  • ahunt

    Well, I’m disappointed, Deanna. You have left the conversation without ever learning that womanly physiology does in fact naturally prevent implantation during the breast-feeding period…innocent little preborn humans flushed…by “Godly” design.

  • ahunt

    Yah…sticking the flounce…and without ever addressing natural female reproductive processes. Instead, you have left us with the impression that you believe female physiology abruptly changed post fall…and all those lost little preborn humans are the product of “Eve’s” sin.

     

    Which would suggest that “Eve” did not possess modern reproductive apparatus, or any reproductive equipment at all.

     

    I’m so confused. Deanna, please come back and clear up my lack of comprehension. According to your understanding of “God’s Will.”

  • arekushieru

    As several people have already explained, feminism is not equivalent to female/woman.  It is, however, equivalent to equal rights.  Which means equal rights =/=, automatically, female. No PERSON has the right to co-opt another person’s organs, against that person’s will, not EVEN to save their life.  The fact that an intact fetus is disturbed in the process of an abortion, is not the woman’s responsibility.  Creating (because, after all, that is what you’re doing) a right for them to not be ‘dismembered’ also grants them the right that NO ONE ELSE HAS.  It also places sole responsibility on the woman for a process that is completely outside of her control.  The process that leads fertilization to implantation (into the wall of a woman’s uterus) of an egg . 

    A fetus can’t feel pain.  If it could birth would be even MORE traumatic to it.

  • arekushieru

    It didn’t help my aunt, though, who got pregnant a second time after her second child (yes, you’re reading that right.  There is no error in the grammatical structure of that sentence!).

  • arekushieru

    Yeah…. Eve was punished for disobedience with an unsuitable punishment, in that case.  I would have thought that her mandated affection for her husband would have been suitable enough….  However, I don’t think Eve lacked a reproductive apparatus.  It just wasn’t modern in any sense of the word.  It’s my opinion that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory for physical evolution.  Because, if you think about it, our evolutionary ancestors were the great apes, of one species or another.  The females of these species lack the same difficulty that human females encounter during pregnancy and childbirth.  And God did say He would multiply women’s suffering in pregnancy and childbirth.  However, it’s still an unsuitable punishment for disobedience….  

  • elburto

    First, I’m a woman, not a man. Second, every person who has ever abused a child has drunk water. Every person who has ever abused a child has eaten food. Every person who has ever abused a child has breathed air.

    What was that you were saying about strawmen?

    Women are not ambulatory cunts, they are not walking incubators, they are not mandatory donors of their own blood and body parts. If you want a society that trades in those beliefs then set one up yourself, see how many women choose to join you on your personal anti-choice, misogynist quest. Your mummy doesn’t count.

  • ack

    I realize that with the multitude of posts on this thread and others, some are bound to be lost in the shuffle. But I posted my perspective and have yet to get a response from you or Arectaris (sorry if I spelled that incorrectly, Ar, but I’m not responding directly to you so it’s not in front of me). 

  • ack

    I am arguing that no one, not even a tiny little pre born human should die for anyone else’s right to anything except their own life.

    But why is pregnancy different than other situations? Why should pregnant people be forced to donate their bodies, at great risk, when no one else is expected, coerced, or forced into doing the same, at far less risk, when the result is a saved human?

     

    Every time I donate blood, I cry. I don’t like needles. Every time I get an innoculation, I cry. Every time the doctor draws blood for a test I ASKED FOR, I cry. Those are all my choices, though. The risk is small, but I’m allowed to choose to take it. When the risk is bigger, we have a boatload of consent laws that are supposed to inform people of risks and allow them to opt out. If I decide that I don’t like needles and don’t want to do any of those things, no one is forcing me to give blood, get vaccinated (I’m an adult and I had all my shots as a child, but needed a couple as an adult to travel or live in a dorm YIKES MENINGITIS!), or get my blood checked for vitamins and nasty stuff in the hopes of preventing further disease. I make those comparably minor decisions for myself, and my body. Sometimes, those decisions may have placed other people at risk of disease or death. If I don’t donate blood, someone might die. If I don’t get innoculated, I might spread disease and someone else might die. If I don’t get checked for vitamin levels, I might die, or might develop a disease that I’m still generally not held responsible for. 

     

    We make all kinds of allowances for people to decide for themselves what kind of medical care/tests/treatment to undergo, even if those decisions kill someone else. Why should pregnancy be treated differently than registering for bone marrow donation?

     

    Why is pregnancy different?

  • ack

     

    RAPE is worse then death

     

    I did an exercise with a very large group of people of varying ages a few years back. We plotted out the violence that people experience on a spectrum. Someone called out, “rape” as an example, and I asked the group where I should put it.

     

    They put it past murder. They struggled with whether to make it more severe or less severe than torture, which was already on the spectrum, beyond murder in severity. (This was part of the exercise;as a community, we were exploring how the severity of violent experiences is shaped by society.) They settled on an agreement that rape is, in fact, a form of torture, and both are worse than murder.

     

    I asked why.

     

    They answered. Rape is a violation of the body, we should always have a choice about sex, we should always be able to say no. People who are anti-abortion-rights don’t seem to understand the link between those concepts and their position in being in favor of forcing pregnant females to give birth.

     

    FBIR, I hear you when you talk about your experiences. I can understand your frustration. Others, even those who aren’t involved in actively defending our rights, can understand what you’re talking about.

     

    “Rape is worse than death.”

     

    I had a room full of people who aren’t involved in issues related to abuse tell me that. You’re not alone.

     

     

  • ack

    It’s about the fact that humans are dying in abortion clinics everyday.

     

    For you, in the abstract, it is probably about the human embryos or fetuses that are dying. For people who recognize that the pregnant person is also important, it’s about her rights being violated, about her dying. I’m a woman. I should be able to choose whether I want to put myself at risk for another human. I have that right in every.other.situation. Except pregnancy.

     

    Please tell me how we are not demeaning women and girls by forcing birth.