Now You Can’t Be Catholic and Support Planned Parenthood?


As if denying communion for those who support a women’s right to choose wasn’t enough, a Catholic Bishop in Nebraska has announced that the church should go even further.  He proposes anyone who supports Planned Parenthood should be denied communion, too.

Via Lifesite News:

Though not “formally excommunicated,” Catholic politicians who support Planned Parenthood or other measures facilitating abortion are “placing themselves outside of the pale of the Church’s doctrine” and should be denied Communion, says Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska.

The bishop told LifeSiteNews that Planned Parenthood, America’s largest abortion provider, should be seen an enemy of the Catholic Church because “it advocates doctrines, immoral activities which are contrary to … the teachings of Almighty God.”

In 1996, Bishop Bruskewitz announced that any Catholics in his diocese who persisted as members of Planned Parenthood would be excommunicated automatically.  The decision was upheld by the Vatican in 2006. 

“Membership in Planned Parenthood [is] incompatible with being a Catholic living a clear adherence to the Catholic faith,” he insisted.

So, using any service at Planned Parenthood? You could get excommunicated over a pap smear? Really?

Almost all women have used birth control.  Even Catholics.  And less radical Catholic groups recognize the predominance and necessity of family planning, with nearly 60 Catholic legislators issuing a letter asking Congress not to cut Title X funding.

If the church really starts excommunicating over support of family planning, they’re going to have a lot of empty pews.

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  • princess-jourdan

    Good!! Let them drive away all of their followers with their asinine, insane edicts! Then maybe that entire Church will disappear for good and we might finally see some peace and rationality in this world.

  • sonicnylon

    Any person who honestly believed abortion to be an intolerably “immoral” deed would go to nearly any lengths to support  Planned Parenthood . That benevolent organization’s contraceptive and obstetric health services are a great help in preventing the unwanted and medically problematic pregnancies which precipitate abortions. Catholic prelates’ misogynistic opposition to all forms of birth control reveal the sham of their anti-abortion raving. Oblivious to the pain and death of women and children, they seek only to sustain the dangers of unwanted and hazardous pregnancies as liabilities of “illicit” sexual activity.

  • princess-jourdan

    I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but the world would be a far better place if the Roman Catholic Church were completely obliterated. They stand for nothing that Christ taught and they are responsible for the suffering, oppression, and death of millions of people over the span of a thousand years. Their hateful reign must come to an end!!

  • lauraj400

    hospital saved my life when I was born 2 months early.

  • squirrely-girl

    …has to do with Catholics NOT supporting PP how?

  • arekushieru

    And they would have left a woman and her fetus to die because she needed a life-saving abortion.

    But, I agree that the Roman Catholic Church needs to be abolished.  I just don’t agree that catholicism in and of itself, is wrong.  Parishioners should be able to follow the Catholic faith, if they so desire.

  • lauraj400

    as well as bad.

  • crowepps

    If they save babies then it’s okay to let pregnant women die?

     

    Funny how you’re “they do good as well as bad” for the Catholic Church but don’t seem willing to extend that thought to Planned Parenthood.

  • prochoiceferret

    as well as bad.

     

    Hey, Hamas does good as well as bad too! I guess they’re no worse than the Catholic Church, then.

  • lauraj400

    I just wish PP would seperate the abortion services from their other services.

  • crowepps

    Because of the constant hassling about Hyde, they do separate the services, but their doing so doesn’t seem to have helped a bit.  The local office here does not do any abortions at all, the few that are done in Alaska are all done up in Anchorage, but there are still protestors with gross pictures and sidewalk counselors who pray at the ladies going in for PAPs and birth control.

     

    In this age of YouTube, the photographic evidence that anti-abortion protestors and sidewalk counselors are anti-social, abusive, violent, obnoxious and act like terrorists is clear and the entire anti-abortion movement comes across as misogynist and authoritarian.  The insistence on making it all about their need to be the center of attention while they do their street theater, offend the general public, and harass women passersby has not only made ProLife synonymous with woman-hating, it seems to be convincing people in general that Christianity hasn’t got much going for it either and congregation are evaporating.

  • forced-birth-rape

     

    ~ It is really none of your business, and the child raping catholic church has no business judging, or criticizing any one else.

     

    Those who support the child raping catholic church has no business criticizing any one else.

     

    I know the child raping catholic church needs to be closed down. A fetus cannot be raped. But those who has been, and can be raped do not matter to the child raping catholics. ~

  • ankhorite

    I don’t want to be too fierce with you, so please don’t take offense.

     

    It’s just that I’m tired of hearing people who are outside the movement — the feminist movement, the women’s health movement, the pro-choice movement or civil rights movement, or whatever movement — trying to set our agenda for us.

     

    No, no thanks.  Separating the abortion services from their other women’s health services would only stigmatize the procedure, the docs who perform it and the women who get it.  It would imply that PP is ashamed of offering this vital service; and it would mean PP was buckling under to the desire of so many anti-choicers to make abortion a stigma and cause for shame. 

     

    So don’t expect PP to go there any time soon.

  • lauraj400

    nt.

  • lauraj400

    I am against civil rights.Just because I think abortion is wrong?I belong to no group,NEVER protested outside a building.

  • prochoiceferret

    not all priests rape.

     

    Well, I wish CC (i.e. the Catholic Church) would just separate the child-rape-y priests from their other priests.

  • arekushieru

    Not all Hamas kill, rape or torture other people, either.  Your point is…?

  • rebellious-grrl

    This is ONE reason I left the Catholic church. The nail in the coffin of Catholicism for me was, my church opposed a teen clinic that distributed condoms. When they announced this in church I stood up and said, “This is stupid and f–cked up! I walked out of church and never went back.

    I say to the bishops, and the church as a whole, go ahead excommunicate us and we will leave and take our money with us. The Catholic church depends on money from its parishioners. The church will go broke with out the masses of people who support PP. Looking forward to seeing all of those empty pews.

  • rebellious-grrl

    As an ex-Catholic I’m not offended at all. Thanks for the post.

  • beenthere72

    are so annoying.

     

    just saying.

  • lauraj400

    different viewpoint?

  • suzieq

    While I am not Catholic, I understand why the  Bishop is taking the stand he is about Planned Parenthood.  When you understand that planned parenthood has, at its inception, was and still is, about abortion upon demand, basically destroying human life, you understand that abortion goes against what the Holy Bible teaches. The two subjects are in contrast to one another….exact opposites. One is about honoring human “life” and the other is about the destroying of human “life.” Do you realize that our Creator “…saw my (our) unformed body” and that “all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” (Psalm 139:16) So while you may not agree with the stance of the Catholic Church, you must understand that its not the “church” who is making this “rule”….It comes from the very Word of God. So,,,if you take issue with it, you are NOT taking issue with the “church” but with God Himself and what He teaches us in the Holy Bible. The “church” is obeying God’s Word.

  • prochoiceferret

    When you understand that planned parenthood has, at its inception, was and still is, about abortion upon demand,

     

    How about when you understand that abortion is only 3% of the services that PP performs?

     

    you understand that abortion goes against what the Holy Bible teaches

     

    Funny, I don’t recall ever seeing anything in the Bible that says abortion is wrong.

     

    Do you realize that our Creator “…saw my (our) unformed body” and that “all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” (Psalm 139:16)

     

    So the Creator sees that some fetuses are ordained to be aborted. I’m sorry; were you under the impression that this passage can somehow be interpreted as “abortion is bad, mmkay?”

     

    So while you may not agree with the stance of the Catholic Church, you must understand that its not the “church” who is making this “rule”….It comes from the very Word of God.

     

    Oh, sure, that’s what all religions with “rules” that contravene basic human rights like to say. Suicide bombers? Hey, they’re just following the Word of God, too.

     

    So,,,if you take issue with it, you are NOT taking issue with the “church” but with God Himself and what He teaches us in the Holy Bible. The “church” is obeying God’s Word.

     

    “Mommy, it’s not my fault! My imaginary friend Bobby told me to punch Suzy in the face!”

  • rebellious-grrl

    Hypocritical statement.

  • suzieq

    I sincerely ask all of you to prayerfully consider what the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, teaches about any and every moral issue facing us all today. Left to our own “I thinks” we have unintentionally derailed ourselves. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my (God’s) ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 56:9) His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and  His ways are higher than our ways.  So I appeal to each of you to ask God Himself what He teaches about every issue with which you may be faced. He says, “I guide you in the way of wisdom and lead you along straight paths.” (Proverbs 4:11) His Word also says …”He will guide you into all the truth”…(John 16:13) and  If you hold to my (God’s) teaching….then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32). Each of us will stand or fall alone, before the living God and be held accountable to God alone (not to the church) for what we believe. He loves us with an everlasting love; Let us turn toward Him…He loves YOU. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28) He’s waiting for you… <3

  • rebellious-grrl

    I hope this increases donations to PP. Next Fri. I’m marching in support of PP (see below). My friends and family are making contributions to PP as well.

    Good Friday Solidarity Event April 22nd!
    Each year on Good Friday over 1,000 anti-choice protesters descend upon Planned Parenthood’s Highland Park clinic.  They carry graphic signs, as well as harass and intimidate the women (and men) using Planned Parenthood’s many services.
    Planned Parenthood has been providing accessible, affordable, and quality reproductive health care in Minnesota for 80 years.  Planned Parenthood has no intention of letting anyone try to close their doors or cave to intimidation and NARAL Pro-Choice Minnesota and our volunteers will be there to help support them.

If you would like to show your support for Planned Parenthood and their patients, please take this opportunity to sign up today.
    What:  Planned Parenthood Solidarity Event
    When:  Good Friday, April 22nd from 8-10:00, 10-12:00, 12-2:00 and 2-4:00.
    Where:  Planned Parenthood 1965 Ford Pkwy Saint Paul
    Who:  You the Pro-Choice supporter!
    Why:  To support Choice and the women who will be making personal decisions on April 22nd!
    How:  Simple, just e-mail volunteer@prochoiceminnesota.org and sign up for the shift of your choice.
    At 10:00 and 1:00 there will be a multi-faith, pro-choice prayer service  open to all of pro-choice supporters.  These services will last approximately 20 minutes and will include a variety of faiths.  
This opportunity to peacefully exhibit your support comes along once a year, so mark your calendar and we’ll see you at the solidarity event!

     

     

    If you planning on going, Bring non-perishable food or personal toiletry items for our food drive!

     

    Pledge a protester
    https://secure.ppaction.org/site/Donation2?idb=1540310377&df_id=3121&3121.donation=form1&JServSessionIdr004=beigmix572.app210b

    http://www.plannedparenthoodadvocate.org/

  • rebellious-grrl

    ………..He’s waiting for you

    Like a stalker? That’s creepy. Go prosthelytize somewhere else.

  • suzieq

    His Word shall not return void for He says:  So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Isaish 55:11)  I’m not speaking…it’s God that is…so if you take issue…talk to Him about it :) 

  • suzieq

    While our God is a very loving and compassionate God, He is also a God of justice and wants us to obey Him. He gives each of us “choice” to turn toward Him or not to turn toward Him; to obey Him or not to obey Him. And He’s the one who decides what is acceptable or not acceptable, not us. In His Word He says: To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better….For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.” Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you….” (1Samuel 15:22-23). You must understand when you reject God and His Word…He rejects you. 

  • beenthere72

    As I’m preparing my Passover Seder for Tuesday night (I’m doing my own for the first time, yay!), I’m reminded that G-d is also capable of destroying innocent lives

  • crowepps

    And He’s the one who decides what is acceptable or not acceptable, not us.

    It nice to hear you admit that, Suzie — now you can stop attempting to speak for Him.  I noted that you put the word “choice” in quotes.  Is that because you recognize that “Please ME by doing exactly what I say or I’ll torture you” isn’t what most people mean when they say choice?  You would do well to read Jefferson:

    the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time

     

    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_vsrf.html

     

  • colleen

    It saddens me to witness what a delusional, sanctimonious, self righteous, pig-ignorant moron you are.

  • suzieq

    I do not attempt to speak for Him…His Word speaks for itself.   Romans 18-32 – The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

     21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

     24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

     26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

     28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

  • suzieq

    Read my previous post….

  • suzieq

    See my previous comment :)

  • suzieq

    Btw, your Jefferson quote proves my point….

  • goatini

    “They were arrogant and spoiled; they had everything they needed and still refused to help the poor and needy.” 

     

    Get stuffed, you arrogant, spoiled brat.  Another hypocritical bible cherry-picker.  PP HELPS the poor and needy.

  • goatini

    The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern”

     

  • kj

    If there is a God like the one you describe, I hope he rejects me, because I reject him.  A God who comdemns girls and women to not being able to control their own bodies, who allows them to be re-raped by being forced to give birth aginst their will, a god who treats women like cattle to be used and discarded is not a God i would bend a knee to. 

  • kj

    I’m an atheist and I reject your God.  And I know the bible, thanks.  In fact, I went to Catholic schools and have read the entire thing.  And that is what made me reject the bible. The God of the Bible endorses murder, rape, looting and other crimes against humanity.  If there was a trial for such a God, he would be condemned as a war criminal.

  • crowepps

    Remember, it’s not all about YOU!

  • squirrely-girl

    … as to which version of the Bible you’re reading from as I’ve grown up with a different version of Matthew such that God was calling to those who work and labour not just those with burdens. 

     

    By the way, not all of us are “heathens” unaware of His word – some of us just took a different set of morals and values from the lessons and seek to live the word rather than beat people over the head with it to hear our own voices… as I remember, God had something to say about that practice. Just saying…

  • forced-birth-rape

     

    ~ Christian bible god is not pro-life, pro-forced-birth christians are colossal liars! ~

     

    ~ Bible verses that testify against the lying pro-forced-birth christians. ~

     

    ~ Remember these bible verses and use them against the lying pro-forced-birth christians. If Christians can say these bible verses are not true, then women can say the bible verses that say women have to be submissive to their husbands are not true, and gay people can say the bible verses that condemn homosexuality is not true. ~

     

    ~ Hosea 13: 16

    “Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.” ~

     

    ~ 1 Samuel 15:3 

    “Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” ~

     

    ~ Exodus 11:4-5:

    “And Moses said, thus says the Lord, about midnight I will go out into Egypt; and all the firstborn in the land [the pride hope and joy] of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sits on his throne, even the firstborn of the maidservant who is behind the hand mill, and all the firstborn of beasts.” ~

     

    ~ Psalms 137:9 “Happy and blessed shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against a rock!” ~

     

    ~ Numbers 31:17

    “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who is not a virgin. “ ~

     

    ~ Numbers 31:18

    “But all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.” The Christian god telling soldiers to rape thirteen year old and twelve year old virgins.  ~

     

    ~ Christian bible god is extremely sadomasochistic to pregnant women and pregnant little girls while they are pregnant, and while they are giving birth. ~

     

    ~ Genesis 3:16

    “I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and cravings will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” ~

     

    ~ Pregnancy and birth is female’s punishment for being born female, and the christians are not going to let them escape it. ~

     

    ~ Nothing and no one has the right to be in a woman’s or little girls body against her will, use her body against her will, or cause her extreme unwanted vaginal pain against her will, even though it gives the pro-forced-birth christians god, and the pro-forced-birth christian great sadomasochistic pleasure. ~

  • arekushieru

    You don’t seem to have any ability to examine or ‘prayerfully consider’ what God teaches about any moral issues that have been mentioned in passing to you, on this very thread.

  • arekushieru

    That’s what she’s talking about… thanks….

  • arekushieru

    You do realize that the man who wrote these words was a misogynist?  That he thought women were property?  If you think that this is God’s Word, then why haven’t you made yourself a man’s property? And that there is a lot of dispute about what he meant by these words?  Of course, the translation you’ve used leans heavily towards the most biased interpretation of the words.  But, there is still room for consideration of another interpretation of these words.  ‘Inflamed with lust’ could simply mean that one was committing acts of adultery, after all. Considering that these people thought they weren’t committing acts of infidelity if they had sexual intercourse with someone of the same sex, it’s MORE likely that Paul was talking about infidelity than homosexuality.  Do you know why Sodom and Gomorrah were razed to the ground, because they raped an angel.  They disobeyed God.  Just like ‘Adam’ and ‘Eve’ were banished from the Garden of Eden for disobeying by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Original sin is disobedience not infidelity/prostitution.  You seem to recognize that, then go on to condemn others for a sin that really isn’t a sin.

    Verses 28 through 32 remind me of the victim-blaming that many women endure after being raped.  Paul clearly wants God to be viewed as a tyrannical Father, One Who condemns others for murder, when not killing in His name, for infidelity when it is committed outside of the Christian faithful, for disobedience to one’s parents, for any reason, when they aren’t disobeying Christian parents.  In fact, Paul sounds much like you and the rest of your hypocritical cohorts.  It’s all okay, as long as it’s done under the auspices of the Christian God.  How can it not be, if you (along with many others who have posted here) continue to deny your own complicity even when presented with facts? Yet, if non-believers do the same, even to a lesser extent (which is quite likely, to tell you the truth), they’re ‘evil’.

    Btw, I’m Christian, so, please, don’t accuse me of being biased towards non-Christians. 

  • elburto

    No, because you can’t see how fucking stupid it is to say “I’m not against civil rights” when you want to deny the rights and bodily integrity of HALF of the population. Do you SEE?

  • rebellious-grrl

    Hi beenthere – Have a wonderful Passover!

  • lauraj400

    be legal?

  • beenthere72

    Thank you!  I’m excited because I found a grocery store that caters and an Interfaith Haggadah written (or rather re-arranged) by Cokie and Steve Roberts.  I’ve invited all my closest friends (*irrespective* of Religion).  Should be fun!   I hope to start a new tradition in our household.  

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Shalom beenthere72, have fun. ~

  • ninevehuk

    If you’re measuring by deaths caused by the organisation’s policies and actions,  I feel confident in stating that the Catholic Church is many million times worse than Hamas.

  • princess-jourdan

    See, this is why I get so irritated when I encounter people who prostelicize (sp?) and claim that THEIR one interpretation of the Bible is the ONLY correct interpretation. I’ve got news for you, there are many religious scholars with PH.D’s in the subject of Theology, and even they can’t all agree on the true meanings behind every passage in the Bible!! And yet some untrained, lay person with a high school diploma expects us to believe that THEY are an expert in biblical texts and that their personal interpretation trumps everyone else’s?? Please. You have the right to interpret the Bible any way you like…but for God’s sake, keep it to yourself and don’t try to force it onto other people!!!

  • princess-jourdan

    See, this is why I get so irritated when I encounter people who insist that THEIR personal interpretation is the ONLY RIGHT interpretation and try to prostelicize (did I spell that right?) and force it onto other people.  Let me explain something to you, SuzieQ.  There are MANY theologans out there with PH.D’S on the subject of Theology, and even they can’t all agree on the meanings behind the passages and stories in the Bible.  And they will NEVER all reach a concensus on it, because non-factual subjects like philopshy, theology, and literature are always open to various interpretations.  It’s not the same as the subject of mathmetics, where we all agree that 1+1=2.  So if highly educated professors of Theology each have their own educated guesses, theories, and interpretations of the Bible, then why should we be forced to accept some high school graduate lay-person’s own personal interpretation of the Bible as THE ONE RIGHT interpretation of biblical scripture??  I think you’re giving yourself too much credit, dear.  You are not an expert on Biblical scripture and Theology.  Neither am I, and I plan to get a Master’s Degree on the subject.  We all have the right to interpret what we read in the Bible in our own personal way…but for God’s sake, keep it to yourself and don’t try to force it on other people!!!

  • arekushieru

    You don’t think it’s wrong in just your case, though, you think it’s wrong in EVERY woman’s case.

    To be blunt, I don’t care if you want to make it illegal or not, as long as you treat abortion as the one medical condition that should be given special consideration, without any valid reasons as to why to back you up, as far as I’m concerned it is illogical to speak out for civil rights at the same time. 

    The heavy moralizing and proselytizing by Christians and the general Pro-Life movement has done enough damage on its own without adding into it the legal abolishment of a necessary medical procedure.  In fact, I strongly believe that that is what has created the legal quagmire many US citizens face, today.

  • arekushieru

    If the ‘Church’ was obeying God’s Word, they would make organ donations mandatory.  But, then, that would mean that these manly men would actually have to make a SACRIFICE! *Gasp* After all, EVERYone has lungs, eyes, kidneys, livers, etc….  So, there would be NO way they could discriminate between the two sexes! *The HORROR*

    You don’t respect or honour life, at ALL, if you think that women are the only ones who should be making the sacrifices. You don’t respect or honour life, at ALL, if you only look at it from a utilitarian perspective.  You don’t respect or honour life, at ALL, if you worship the fetus and dehumanize the woman. 

     

  • wendy-banks

    Me too! 

    Just say NO to woman-hateing religons! 

     

  • progo35

    Are-Paul was not a “mysogynist.” Many of his letters were hand delivered by women to the various churches he was writing to. BTW, is there anyone in the Bible, besides Christ, who you feel wasn’t a mysogynist?

  • kj

    Using women as messengers does not make you not a misogynist. It makes you a user.  Paul said in his letters that women needed to sit down, shut up and listen to men.  The only thing he liked about marriage was that it was better than burning with lust. Now, Paul was a product of his time, but I don’t think that excuses him or churches that today point to Paul’s teachings as a way to oppess women. 

     

    Of course, if you read the bible, you quickly relize that God is the original misogynist OR that the writers of the bible used god to justify their own terrible misogyny.  Either way, more evidence that I want nothing to do with that book. 

  • arekushieru

    Oh, I don’t have much to do with the Bible, myself.  For the most part, I just look on it as an allegory to evolution, ecumenically, culturally, ethnically, physically, etc, etc…. I simply pay attention to the words that are supposedly text taken directly from the mouth of God.

  • arekushieru

    There are a few, but not many.  God, Vasthi, Mary and Joseph are the only ones I can think of, because there was no organized feminist movement to oppose the patriarchal regime as there is, today and many of the books authored by women, have been removed from the Bible.

    Just like there were no organized movements to promote equal rights for black people during the time that the suffragette movement came into being, meaning that there were very few that were not racist, and Susan B. Anthony was NOT included in the latter. 

  • suzieq

    About 95% of what I wrote down was quoted directly from scripture. I would never dream of taking credit. You might want to read, again, all my posts to confirm that. I must admit I am unwavering in what God has taught me and shown me regarding scripture and I don’t apologize for that, its come with several years of reading His Word, prayerfuly seeking truth, wisdom, and understanding. I’ll be the first to admit, I have much more to learn. However, the Bible is to be spiritually discerned and its the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth so even though there may be some disagreement among theologians on some things in the Bible, i.e. rapture, for instance, the Christian church is in agreement in their foundational beliefs. So while you may want to minimize the insight that has been given me, because I don’t have a Phd in theology, what’s truly amazing about our God and His Word is that His Spirit leads us into all truth so it isnt necessary to have a Phd in the subject.

    Also, you misquote me, put words in my mouth, and are making assumptions. And just as you feel free to post here what you want, so do I. And you can agree or disagree. You can read my posts or not read them; no one is forcing you to do that, you have free will just as I do. You’re free to get angry, so am I, if i choose. I wish you no harm, only good and if anything I posted here gave you that impression, it wasn’t intentional.  I wish you only the best in pursuing your degree in theological studies and I pray God fills you with all wisdom and truth and opens your eyes, heart and mind to His Word.

  • arekushieru

    And you are putting words in her mouth.  Please do tell me where she has minimized what you have experienced and are saying by telling you she is acquiring her PHD in Theology?  In actual fact, I think she’s done the exact opposite.  Thanks.

  • ldan

    Respectful? Whatever.

     

    I have nothing to do with the God who fueled Crusades and Inquisitions, whose followers took a while to decide if women actually even had souls and still, in many, many cases, believe that women should be subordinate to men and to fetuses, and to pretty much everything else. Why in the world would I look to such a disturbing religion for anything? I wouldn’t let that God write my grocery list, much less direct my life, thank you very much.

     

    If you have some substantial debate to bring here, great. But mouthing endless pieties isn’t going to get you very far.

  • colleen

    Suzie

     

    Those voices in your head aren’t the holy spirit, you are not speaking for God and this isn’t a religious blog.

  • rweresponsible

    Glad to hear they saved you!

  • wendy-banks

    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

     Seneca quotes (Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD)

  • rweresponsible

    Very good insight…

  • rweresponsible

    Seems reasonable…

  • rweresponsible

     The bible often illuminates the depth of how God want’s humans to understand life and personhood. However, one does not have to be Christian to see present-day American society has a very dangerous understanding of what it means to be a “person”. Planned Parenthood encapsulates this understanding perfectly.

    A person is now defined as a centre of consciousness with feelings and emotions and longings and desires. So if someone possesses these qualities, congratulations! THEY ARE persons. The body? The body is something secondary to that.  The body is what we use as a tool to serve the feelings and emotions and longings and desires. Because we understand this “centre of consciousness” to be THE person–regardless of gender–it relegates the body to a nuisance; something to be altered and scathed as we wish. To be a person is no longer understood to be an integral whole comprised of a body/soul.

    Why? Because it’s easier. Because once we create an artificial understanding of what it means to be a person, it gives us a license to do whatever in the world we wish with our bodies and still be a “good person”. (i.e. ending a human life if things get tough… preventing a human life on the front end so we hopefully don’t have to end it on the back end… are all perfectly synonomous with being a “good person” today).

    My question would be: what about humans who are not conscious or aware? humans with Alzheimers? humans in a coma? humans who have been in an accident? The answers to these questions reveal just how ludicrous the aforementioned way of thinking really is.

    To see a person as a person is to acknowledge a complete BODY/SOUL entity; male and female respectively. Anything less will eventually compromise the freedom, value and even life of said male/female human being.

  • colleen

    Planned Parenthood does a far better job of treating women with respect and dignity than you or your church, Paul. And, unlike your church, their medical services are provided on a a sliding scale fee and Planned Parenthood isn’t trying to kill women whose bodies cannot sustain a pregnancy and justify that deeply repulsive policy with a demand that we recognise their moral authority. They have no moral authority and neither do you.

      You folks reduce women  to our reproductive functions and then feed us a line of unmitigated crap about how we should be grateful for the honour.  We could all have lobotomies and manage most of what guys like you tell us God wants. Odd how what ‘God’ wants always diminishes and degrades women.

     

  • rweresponsible

    When you say:

    “We all have the right to interpret what we read in the Bible in our own personal way…but for God’s sake, keep it to yourself and don’t try to force it on other people!!!”

    It is worth noting the Catholic Church appears to be on your side for this one… sort of.

    How? By taking the implementation part of contextual scriptural interpretation and leaving it SOLEly with the Magisterium of the church. Why? Precisely because of the subjective “sola scriptural” wave of confusion and ambiguity inherent in denominational Christianity where everyone and their grandmother’s dog gives you a different line and meaning every time.

    In doing so, the Magisterial authority–comprised of philosophers, PhD’s, theologians and the like–is enabled to determine with the help of “Devine Grace”  HOW the faithful are to interpret scripture. Why? Because that’s their life’s work! The result? The Catechism of the Catholic Church and a wealth of objective resources to provide “BEYOND A DOUBT” teaching on anything you can think of… all biblicallly based.

    And no… I’m no going to force it on you. No one forced it on me. It is what it is and it’s there to be discovered…

  • arekushieru

    Here, RWe let me reiterate something for you, then you’ll see how ludicrous your OWN claims are….  

    Let’s imagine:

    •  A scale with one arm longer than the other.  The shorter arm represents the fetus and the longer arm represents the woman. There is one bowl labelled body on the fetal side. There are several bowls on the woman’s side.  One is labelled body, the others are labelled moral, social, intellectual, physical and emotional agency, thoughts, feelings, consciousness, sapience, sentience and awareness and hopes, dreams, desires, wants, wishes, and inspirations.  The bowl on the fetal side is filled to the brim.  Then the bowls on the woman’s side are filled at the same rate, at the same time, until the scale is balanced.  The material that was poured inside each of the bowls represents ‘respect’.  If we compare both sides, a fetal body is respected more than the woman’s counterpart, more than her agency, more than her hopes, dreams, desires, wants, wishes and inspirations and more than her thoughts, feelings, consciousness, sapience, sentience and awareness, when taken individually.  THAT is what you are advocating for when you ask that both the body and ‘soul’ be granted equal importance:

    Or;

    • Fetus in fetu/parasitic twins.  If the body is just as important as the ‘soul’, then parasitic twin cases such as this one:  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2346476&page=1 ; would never have called for removal of the parasitic twin.  Unless, of course, only women are expected to allow their bodies to be hijacked for a certain length of time, which would end almost all reports of rape.  (Parasitic twins occur naturally, remember…):

    Or;

    •  An equally enforceable and distinguishable corollary to pregnancy for ciswomen, transmen and intersexed persons with uteri on all other groups of humans.  Kinda difficult, huh?  So, as a male of the species, you’re asking that women take on the largest physical burden known to most organisms on earth, knowing that you will never have to worry that you will ever have to physically, medically and emotionally invest enormous amounts of time and energy into the whole process of procreation.  It’s especially heinous when one considers that no other medical condition is proscribed in such a manner as to restrict a person’s right to medical privacy.  Or that a woman is basically entrapped inside and held hostage to her own body simply by virtue of her sex:

    Or;

    • A world where all unnatural processes that effect the body are removed.  You wouldn’t be able to get cancer, HIV/Aids or Alzheimer treatment or preventative care.
  • arekushieru

    Um, sorry, there would be no Catholic child-raping priests, then.  Their ‘interpretations’ of the bible appear to differ significantly from not only that which God intended but from their peers.

  • arekushieru

    Then, you’ll be willing to overlook all the ‘bad’ things Planned Parenthood does, right?

  • ack

    The situation in Phoenix last year, where a Catholic hospital lost its status because the staff approved an abortion that saved the life of a mother of four, is a perfect example of the cherry picking that goes on in this religious analysis in the Church. The hospital recruited a neutral, well-respected, Catholic theologian to analyze the issue and determine whether the abortion was permissible under Catholic doctrine. The theologian determined that it met the criteria (since the woman was dying), and the Bishop basically said, “I disagree with your assessment.” No counterargument, no alternative expert. He simply disagreed, and that was that. That’s not objectivity. It’s intellectually dishonest, and blatant entitlement.

     

    I’ve had ample opportunities to discover Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole. I was raised in the Catholic Church. I discovered a legacy of corruption, intolerance, kyriarchy, exploitation, and abuse of power. That’s what happens when you let one group of old, mostly white (historically, exclusively so), supposedly celibate, rich dudes dictate who interprets the meaning of scripture. The stuff the Bible says about Jesus is pretty cool. It’s really too bad most of the people who claim to be Christians don’t actually do what Jesus would do. I’m pretty sure Jesus would have saved that mom.

  • ack

    Has anyone else here read Life of Pi? Do you agree that these folks might benefit from reading it?

     

    If you haven’t read it, you really should. AMAZING.

  • ack

    Because we understand this “centre of consciousness” to be THE person–regardless of gender–it relegates the body to a nuisance; something to be altered and scathed as we wish.

     

    I thought the whole problem with us heathens was the fact that we were too focused on our bodies? You know, what with the lust and the gluttony and those hedonistic retreats in Jamaica.

     

     

    Because it’s easier. Because once we create an artificial understanding of what it means to be a person, it gives us a license to do whatever in the world we wish with our bodies and still be a “good person”. (i.e. ending a human life if things get tough

    Demonstrably false. A perfect example is the women who kill abusive partners after years of verbal, physical, emotional, and sexual abuse and are currently serving lengthy prison terms. Check out the film, “Sin by Silence,” a documentary about women in CA prisons for doing precisely that.

     

     preventing a human life on the front end so we hopefully don’t have to end it on the back end… are all perfectly synonomous with being a “good person” today).

     

    ZOMG! I’m a TERRIBLE person for actively preventing pregnancy for OVER A DECADE! But I’d be an even more terrible person for not using contraception and then wanting an abortion. So… your argument still boils down to, “DON’T HAVE SEX.” What happened to not forcing your truth on other people?

     

    what about humans who are not conscious or aware? humans with Alzheimers? humans in a coma? humans who have been in an accident? The answers to these questions reveal just how ludicrous the aforementioned way of thinking really is.

     

    What about them? I’m not sure where you’re going with Alzheimers. But both ethical and legal arguments allow families to make decisions about whether to keep people on life support. I’ve made it very clear to my parents, my siblings, and my partner that if I’m a vegetable, I want them to pull the plug. If one of them said they wanted to continue life support, or get cryogenically frozen, I’d follow their wishes. Maybe not if they wanted their head in a jar on my mantle, but I would talk to them about it if they asked.

     

    To see a person as a person is to acknowledge a complete BODY/SOUL entity; male and female respectively. Anything less will eventually compromise the freedom, value and even life of said male/female human being.

     

    A. You’re assuming belief in the soul. I believe in a complicated neurological structure that makes us who we are. But I don’t think that acknowledging a person as a mind/body entity is an argument against abortion. The body can be slightly separated from the mind for a number of reasons, but like I said earlier, if the mind is completely disconnected, we allow family members to decide what’s best. Heck, we let the government decide in some cases. But none of those situations, like brain death/life support, dementia, severe mental illness, or head trauma, require that the person be hooked up to someone else in order to survive. If it did, we’d allow refusal to be connected or withdrawal of consent. Legal precedent on bodily autonomy is pretty clear on this.

    B. As an educational opportunity, male and female aren’t the only sexes.

  • arekushieru

    And, if the physical is all that matters, what’s the big deal about disconnecting someone from life support, since, strictly physically speaking, that’s all you’re doing.  It’s definitely not killing.

  • rweresponsible

    ack – I would have to research that event in more detail to comment, although one thing is for certain:

     

    Jesus would never take a life to save a life… especially the life of a young human to save it’s own mother.

     

    You can pretty much bet your life on that.

  • rweresponsible

    …I should add because to do that (knowingly take a life to save a life) entails a judgement that one life is unworthy of saving… not to mention the life of a being with no voice.

  • johannahatch

    You definitely should research ack’s comment more, because your comments show a distinct lack of understanding of the situation cited.  The fetus in question was at 11 weeks gestation, and the continuation of the pregnancy would have killed both fetus and mother. Here’s a good place to start if you are interested in the Catholic theological debate that surrounded the case of Sr. McBride and St. Joseph’s Hospital in Phoenix: http://ncronline.org/news/ethicists-fault-bishop’s-action-phoenix-abortion-case

  • colleen

    Jesus would never take a life to save a life

    It takes some real, deep seated hatred to spin it that way.

  • beenthere72

    In this instance it was a matter of losing BOTH mother and child.   Jesus would certainly choose to save the life of the mother in that instance. 

  • waterjoe

    The bishop did not say that people who use PP services are excommunicated, but that members of PP are.  Is that a surprise?  If abortion is an excommunicatable offense in this church, why wouldn’t providing cooperation and approval to an organization that does abortions, no matter how few in number, also be an excommunicatable offense? 

  • prochoiceferret

    why wouldn’t providing cooperation and approval to an organization that does abortions, no matter how few in number, also be an excommunicatable offense?

     

    You tell me. The Church doesn’t consider sexually molesting or raping young children to be an excommunicable offense, so the guidelines aren’t exactly intuitive.

  • crowepps

    Then why do any women at all survive miscarriages?  Since apparently it’s part of “God’s Plan” to take the life of the “young human” why should the mother be allowed to survive in that case?  Now I FINALLY understand Rep. Bobby Franklin’s reasoning in labeling miscarriages as potential murders.  God might not have been paying attention and so it’s the responsibility of the religious extremists who fetishize pregnancy to make sure the Plan is followed by executing women whose pregnancies fail.  Of course, since something like 20% of pregnancies fail we’re going to run out of women pretty quickly, but the important thing is the PRINCIPLE!

  • crowepps

    It’s really easy to assert that Jesus couldn’t be bothered to save women’s lives when you’re not a woman.  Jesus is really, really concerned about saving those “young humans” because they might be male.  The vending machines they’re coming out of?  Not important.

  • arekushieru

    No, it does not.  You absolutely have NO idea how worthiness/unworthiness is realized, do you?  By your own logic, a woman, along with the fetus, who dies during a dangerous and complicated pregnancy was judged unworthy.  Perhaps that’s because life and death, in and of themselves. do not inherently judge who is or isn’t worthy?

  • forced-birth-rape

     

    ~ If the Jesus Christ of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, came to America to day the republican christian pro-lifers would demand him be sent to Guantanamo Bay.

     

    Jesus Christ of the bible never criticized, harassed, badgered, or condemned women. He never told them to go home and get married, serve a man, or have a baby.

     

    American republican pro-lifer christians do not know, or want to know anything about Jesus Christ of the bible, he stands for everything they are fighting against.

     

    Republican christian pro-lifers Lord and Savior is much more like Erik Prince, a christian misogynistic warlord. That is the real Jesus Christ of the republican christian pro-lifer party.

     

    American Christian republican pro-lifers are Pharisees, people who talk and worry about what “other people” are doing wrong and need to be doing. They heap pain and misery on poor people, especially female people, to satisfy their misogyny flavor of religion. ~

     

    Matthew 23

    Then Jesus said to the multitudes and to His disciples,

     

    The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses seat [of authority].

     

    They tie up heavy loads, hard to bear, and place them on man’s shoulders, but they themselves will not lift a finger to help bear them.

     

     

    http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

  • crowepps

    It’s downright silly when you consider nobody gets out of life alive.  Even Jesus died however temporarily.

     

    The illogic in the chain of beliefs is staggering.  The soul is immortal, the soul is the only thing that matters, the body and the world are corrupt and corrupting, the fetus is ‘innocent’, those who are ‘innocent’ when they die to go heaven.  So why the insistence that it’s better for the fetus to be born, have the average crappy life, be corrupted by their sexual urges and end up in hell?  If they’re really thinking about the fetus why not just let it head right on up to heaven now?  Sure, the woman might go to hell, but she’s headed there anyway because she’s not a virgin anymore.

  • arekushieru

    Methinks he doth protest too much.  He seems to be unable to recognize that his own words testify to the fact that there are plenty of different opinions amongst the Catholic leaders.  If he didn’t learn that the body was just as important as the soul from one of them, then how DID he learn it?  Must have been Satan, since, by his own claim, the only ones to learn it from ARE the priests, bishops, archbishops, popes.

  • beenthere72

    Awesome comment.  Cracked me up.

  • johannahatch

    Actually, no, providing cooperation and approval to an organization that does abortion is not an excommunicatable offense:

    http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/abortion/documents/CopyofNotesOnCanonLaw12010forweb.pdf

  • ack

    Jesus would never take a life to save a life…

     

    It’s sometimes hard for me to separate Christianity as a religion from Christianity as political ideology, which is definitely a contributing factor. We have some really strong self-defense laws in this country, many (if not most) of which were pushed by the religious right where it overlaps with the NRA crowd (it’s a strong overlap). We have the Castle Doctrine, allowing people to kill other people who invade their property. In AZ, we have a bizarre self-defense law that places the burden on the prosecution to prove it WASN’T self-defense. The death penalty is often based on Biblical arguments. If modern day Christians are using religion as a basis for those policies, what does that say about Jesus, about Christianity, and about those politicians?

     

    Others have already stated that the case I referenced was not a choice of abortion and survival of the woman vs. possible survival for both the woman and the fetus. Without the abortion, both would have died. It’s more complicated than your statement. At the same time, I’m troubled by the belief that if Jesus could have killed Hitler, he wouldn’t have done it. I think he would have, because everything I’ve read about Jesus portrays him as a compassionate guy. (I realize I picked an EXTREME example, but making absolute statements prompts presentation of exceptions.)