Get Real! How Can I Stick to the Promise I’ve Made to Myself to Wait?


IthilienDude asks:

I’m a Christian, and I have decided to save myself till marriage. I’m perfectly fine with that. My boyfriend is fine with that too (we’ve been together a month), and respects my decision. However, like any celibate person would admit, sometimes I get these truly surreal urges for sex: I catch myself thinking that maybe even a little bit of touching while kissing would be fine, or I just think about what it would be like if we ever got married and ended up sleeping together. I have said nothing to my boyfriend, in case he misconstrues it as an invitation, but it has recently been very, very difficult to resist, especially with all these hormones making me want sex. I want to stay true to my decision to stay premaritally celibate, and I will pride myself on not being tempted, however my urges make the battle all the harder sometimes. Any suggestions?

Heather Corinna replies:

For starters, I think staying silent about this with a romantic partner isn’t likely to help you out, especially one you’re physical with. Unless you feel like your relationship is too new to be talking about sexuality at all yet, I also don’t think keeping how you’re feeling to yourself is going to help cultivate a relationship in which the other person can really get to know you, which is kind of the point of relationships, right?

You say he’s supportive of your decision to save sexual contact for marriage. You say sticking with this choice is important to you. If both of these things are true, I don’t think you’re doing either of you any favors by not giving him the chance to really be supportive and yourself the chance to be who you really are, which includes your feelings and desires and the choices you want to make with them. In healthy, close relationships, we should be able to talk about the things that are most important to us and also about things we struggle with.

Talking about anything sexual shouldn’t ever be construed as an invitation unless we are extending an invitation, such as “I’ve been thinking about X a lot. Would you like to do X with me?” or “I’m in the mood for X and would like to do it with you. You wanna?” Those are invitations. Something like “I’ve been thinking about X, but I don’t want to do it, I just want to voice it and talk about it,” is clearly not an invitation to do anything but talk. In a healthy relationship where we are earnestly respected, partners will respect the fact that sometimes we may want things or think about things that, for whatever reason, we don’t actually want to do or don’t feel right about doing at a given time.

If you are with someone who cares about you and respects you, I don’t think you need to worry that voicing this will result in your boyfriend doing something that you don’t want or pressuring you. If you truly think talking about this would result in that kind of response, I’d advise you to get away from this person, no matter what your values were, because that would be an indication he isn’t a safe person to be close to.

If you two are going to keep seeing each other, especially long-term, radio silence about anything that feels big is not your friend. You’re going to need to talk about things like this from time to time. And when you keep this stuff to yourself, it’s more likely to make you feel like a corked bottle about to pop. Giving it voice is likely to help you feel a lot better.

So, first things first: start talking. You’ve made the decision to wait because your values are such that you want to choose to only do certain things with these feelings in certain situations, not because you don’t have these feelings. You don’t need to pretend you don’t have desires, because having those desires, even if he shares them, doesn’t mean you need to do things you don’t want to or that anyone’s actions will be outside their control. You can talk about this and brainstorm together to think of ways to manage it. Maybe that will involve spending less time making out and more time doing things together that aren’t physical; maybe you can come up with creative ways to explore these feelings that aren’t physical, like by writing them down and sharing them that way. Maybe you can come up with ways to be physically affectionate that feel less sexual. Think creatively together, especially since chances are, he’s also feeling like you are, and could also use some help.

Talking about this can also provide an excellent opportunity to be clear on your limits and boundaries. Sex means a lot of different things to different people, so you’ll want to figure out what “saving sex until marriage” means to you and then make that clear to anyone you’re dating. That way, they can be sure they really can agree to what you’re asking of them and you get to worry a whole lot less about misunderstandings, which should be a big chunk of stress you’ll get to ditch.

It might help to recognize your sexual desires aren’t surreal. The desires you’re having are anything but surreal: they’re real. They’re common, and most people have them, including people who — again, for whatever reason — choose not to enact them. You talk about them being all about hormones, but those desires aren’t just about hormones, even though many people talk about them that way, especially when they talk about young people. Even people whose levels of sex hormones and other chemicals that play a part in sexuality and interpersonal relationships are different than yours, or who have had decades to get used to the chemicals that play a part in our sexual desires will feel desires to be sexual or otherwise physically close to people.

You say you want to pride yourself on having never been tempted. I’d suggest you make more room for yourself to simply be human in that. Unless you’re choosing to be celibate because you have never felt any sexual desires or don’t ever expect to, I think it’s very unrealistic to ask that of yourself.

I’m going to assume that for you, the value of this particular intention — choosing to save sex for marriage — is based in that intent and action, not about thoughts or feelings to the contrary. I hope so, because while you can control your actions and intentions, you can’t control your thoughts or feelings. They happen and are what they are even if and when people try and exert control over them. I assume, too, that it’s probably a more meaningful or powerful intention in your mind if you’re choosing it despite it not being easy, and that if it were totally easy and just anyone could do it, it wouldn’t be very meaningful to you.

Instead, what I’d suggest is that you just accept those feelings of being “tempted” when you have them. Let them be, don’t judge them, don’t invest pride in having them or not having them. Heck, I’d suggest not even investing pride in what you do or don’t do with them: this isn’t about pride after all, it’s about your faith, which is likely bigger, more meaningful, and richer than pride. Desires tend to come and go if we just let them float in and out. If someone wants to do something about them that feels right and is right for anyone else involved, that’s okay. But if someone doesn’t want to, or has something else they want that those actions would be in conflict with, they can let them be there and then just let them go.

One thing that can happen, though, which you’re probably experiencing, is that those feelings can feel way more intense when we choose not to enact them or when we can’t enact them. Having something that we want be forbidden — even if we are the ones making it so, and even if it’s forbidden because we want something else more — is a powerful thing, especially sexually. That doesn’t mean you have no choice but to have any kind of sex you don’t want to, just that you want to recognize that putting a kibbosh on putting those feelings into action is probably making them feel bigger than they actually are. While knowing that doesn’t change the situation, sometimes being aware of some of why something feels a certain way can make it easier to deal with, and in this case, you can probably ground yourself some by recognizing some of the bigness of those desires is about you not pursuing them, and if you did pursue them, they may well feel less big than they do now.

I don’t know how you feel about masturbation , but that can give you an outlet for these feelings and desires without going against what you want in terms of saving sex with a partner until marriage. Masturbation can be a satisfying outlet for sexual feelings, whether we’re choosing to have sex with partners or not. It’s not being with a partner, so it can’t provide the social and interpersonal part of sex, but it can create a feeling of physical and chemical sexual release (the parts that are more about hormones) and give you a place to explore your sexuality that doesn’t involve a partner. If that’s not something you want to do, that’s okay. It’s one option, that’s all.

I want to make sure you know that something else that’s very normal and typical is to ask questions of our values and beliefs, even when we feel very strongly about them. That’s how we tend to clarify them, and either check in and get stronger in knowing they are want we want and believe, or adjust them if they ever don’t feel like a good fit anymore, whether that’s developing a different understanding of the same values or changing those values.

I don’t think any of us needs to be scared to ask questions of our value or belief systems, because the goal is to discover and live by whatever values and beliefs are right for us as individuals. The right set for us will stand up to questions. And if we’ve got a set that’s wrong for us, or even just not quite right, it’s important to make adjustments so that we and our lives feel right, and so we can always be engaging in and moving towards what is right for us, uniquely, and what we feel best about. If you haven’t yet met people in your life who feel they must stick to a set of values that really doesn’t fit them, or won’t fully include who they are, trust me when I tell you that those folks are typically very unhappy people who ultimately not only don’t stick to those values, but who sometimes wind up using them to keep themselves and other people feeling really terrible.

I know it can feel scary to have doubts about values, especially if you have the idea that any one value system is always absolutely right and everything else is wrong. But I hope you have the wisdom to know that’s not true, especially knowing how many wonderful people there are in the world who have done wonderful things who have different belief systems. The Dalai Lama and Aung San Suu Kyi aren’t Christian; Ghandi, Elie Wiesel, Malcolm X and even Mary, Moses and Jesus weren’t Christian, but you probably recognize those are or were all people who’ve done things with their lives very much in alignment with the core of what your values probably are. There are also people who have shared your values and religion that I think you and I would agree have done terrible things, some that have even hurt millions of people. Clearly, being a wonderful person who does good for themselves and others is more about simply investing care, energy and intention in doing good for yourself and others than it is about one system of values or beliefs.

You might find some extra support in finding others to talk to who share your values and also share some of your struggles around this. I’d say that’s even more important if this relationship feels too new for you to talk to this guy about this. I bet you can find someone around your age who feels the same way or similar to the way you feel, who is struggling with what you are: we hear from young people here in a similar spot often. Those other-you’s are out there, I assure you. Self-constructed support groups can be such a big help with anything we need some help with in our lives. If you’ve had trouble finding peers who share your beliefs, you could ask other people in your religious community to help you make those connections.

One last thing I’d suggest is that you think about what you need in terms of dating and what’s likely to be and feel best for you. Is dating a sound choice for you right now at all, especially if it involves being physical in any way? It may not be. If you think it is and you can manage it with your goals around sex, what about what kind of partner is a best choice for you? A partner who is only “fine with” your values and these choices, especially if they’re only reluctantly okay, may not work out very well, especially when you’ve not been dating a month, but months or years, as this is likely to get more challenging with time, especially if the other person doesn’t want what you do. What may be a better fit is dating people who aren’t just okay with your values, but who share them.

If this guy doesn’t turn out to be a person who this works with over time, that doesn’t mean you have to change what you want or believe or do anything you don’t feel good about. If this guy isn’t that person, know that person — probably more than just one, too — is out there, it just may take time to find them, as it often does for any of us to find people with whom we have real affinity.

I’ll confess that talking about what you are is sometimes challenging for me, especially in a world where not everyone is even given the right to get married when that’s something they want and where some of the history around these kinds of ideals makes me uncomfortable. But just like you have a strong intention to save sex until marriage, I have a strong intention to support everyone in whatever they feel is or is not right and best for them in their sexual choices, even when I don’t share the same values and wants, even when I don’t understand them, because I don’t always understand.

That said, I want to make sure you know that just like I support you in this now, I’d be supportive if at any point in your life, you decided you wanted to make different choices that felt right for you then. I’d be supportive if you didn’t decide you felt differently, but did something outside your boundaries because you thought, in the moment, you might feel differently, or wanted to see how you felt if you tried something. We’re all human, and sometimes that means that we’re not always clear on what we want, or that we do something because we think it’ll be okay for us, only to find out that it wasn’t. We’re human, and so we tend to often learn by making mistakes or by trying different things to find out how we feel more tangibly. If that ever happens, I hope you won’t lose pride in yourself, respect for yourself or feel you have lost a “battle.” I hope if any of those things ever does happen, you can be just as kind to you and supportive of you as I’d be.

I also hope that whatever you decide is the right path for you in this, now or later, you can find a way for it to feel less like a battle and more like a positive challenge to get what you want and to be whoever it is you want to be.

I’m leaving you with a few links I think might give you some additional help:

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Follow Heather Corinna on Twitter: @Scarleteen

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  • churchmouse

    This person confesses to be a Christian and then ask advice on a thread that is clearly geared towards people who are secular in thinking. What is she REALLY looking for? She should seek Christian counseling, she should pray and fast. 

    The advice she got here is not good advice and from a person who clearly does not understand what obedience to Christ is about. There is only ONE right path and that is to follow what Christ said and he was specific about sin, what it is and what it does.

    Not only is sex outside the boundaries of marriage sin, so is lust and coveting….which brings us to masterbation. It this is done between husband and wife and the intentions are towards each other that is not sin. If someone is masterbating while thinking of other people or situations that are sinful…that is sin. This is more than just “what feels good.”

     

    For a Christian it becomes what is acceptable and pleasing to God…instead of humanist thinking that the “self” is what is most important. It is not about us…but all about Him. It’s not about what WE WANT TO BE….but more about what GOD WANTS US TO BE. Sin separates one from God. Lusting, sex sin……does not bring one closer…but allows Satan a stronghold on our lives.

    I pray this girl finds spiritual help and advice from a place that understands scripturally what she is facing.   

      

  • churchmouse

    I might add that the links are proof that this girl will NOT get good advice here. They are geared towards people who want to do it anyway. They encourage someone to commit sex sin…like the one…..”What Would Jesus Do?”

     

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ When I prayed as a child and asked christian god to help me not get sexually abused and help me be able to stay away from perverts why did he not get off his self-appointed throne and come help me? Why does he lounge about his self-appointed throne while the many children he created and forced to be born are child-sex-slaves all over the world?~

  • beenthere72

    Hi FBIR!   We missed you!

  • prochoiceferret

    I pray this girl finds spiritual help and advice from a place that understands scripturally what she is facing.

     

    Like the Catholic Church? “Yes, my child, you are wise to refrain from fornicating with your boyfriend. But I can understand that you are feeling some powerful sexual urges in your beautiful, nubile body. And there is a way that I can help you with that…”

  • heather-corinna

    I actually think that it’s a good idea to ask why we have so many evangelical young people who feel we’re the best place for them to get questions like this answered, and often the only place — as they typically report, including when we suggest, as we tend to, they also talk to people in their religious communities — they feel comfortable asking.

     

    So, why indeed seek advice from someplace like Scarleteen or from someone like me who approaches these questions in a secular way (you can’t know how I think, and please don’t presume because I don’t share your religion I don’t have my own faith)? 

     

    I’m pretty sure I know the answers, but since you asked the question yourself, I think it might be a good idea to think about what they might be. Want a hint?  Look at your own approach and then honestly ask yourself if it sounds like the kind of answer someone grappling with very complex issues and feelings would be likely to find any useful help from.

  • prochoiceferret

    Look at your own approach and then honestly ask yourself if it sounds like the kind of answer someone grappling with very complex issues and feelings would be likely to find any useful help from.

     

    Heather Corinna: Turning trolls into teachable moments since a long time ago.

  • colleen

    Sorry to be off topic but I am so pleased to see your posts again, FBIR. Are you OK?

  • jayn

    For a Christian it becomes what is acceptable and pleasing to God…instead of humanist thinking that the “self” is what is most important. It is not about us…but all about Him. It’s not about what WE WANT TO BE….but more about what GOD WANTS US TO BE.

     

    While I generally believe in there being a single higher power, every once in a while I start to think that there are multiple gods, and that the Christian one is a jealous ego-maniac.  Though this is the first time it was prompted by something other than the actual scripture.

  • plume-assassine

    Face it, churchrat, there’s nothing wrong with Heather’s advice. She is totally respectful of the reader’s religious views as well as her valid personal choice to wait. YOU are just sooo hell-bent on punishing women to the point that you are upset that the advice column doesn’t come down to “Stop thinking about sex, you nasty evil slut! Beg for forgiveness!” Fundamentalist Christianity = thought-policing at its worst.

     

    It is also a sign of your immense idiocy that you think one’s sexuality is tied to morality. This makes no sense and it makes you look utterly ridiculous. A good and just God would not care if a young woman or man was masturbating. A good and just God would not care if two young people in a healthy consensual relationship were having penis-in-vagina sex. Or is your God a pervert, one who is morbidly obsessed with human sexual activity? You would think that God would have better things to do in this war-torn world than obsess about sex. On one hand, God is so concerned with these matters and so degraded by the possibility of a young woman exploring masturbation… but why is a good and just, all-powerful, omniscient God incapable of preventing rape and childhood sexual abuse? By the way, these are rhetorical questions, and I do not expect you to answer them, because you are not God.

  • rebellious-grrl

    So glad you’re back. I missed you!

  • arekushieru

    *Hugs FBIR*  Like everyone else, I am SO glad to see you back.  Hope you’re doing okay, hon!

  • arekushieru

    Or even amongst and within the different denominations of Christianity.

  • arekushieru

    There is no ‘encouragement’, here, just compassionate advice.  You might want to try it some day.

  • churchmouse

    I believe God created this world then stepped away and allowed us free will.

    If he stopped everything bad from happening then it would be a perfect world. We are far from that.

    I believe evil will not win and have faith that God will punish those who do it.

     

  • churchmouse

    I am talking about the scriptures not the Catholic Church. But now that you mention it…fornication before marriage is sin. You will not find one example where Christ condoned sex outside marriage. If so please feel free to post it here so we can all read it. People have urges and God expect us to control them. We should never use these as an excuse to do them. Sin is sin and God is clear about what sin is and what it does.

     

  • churchmouse

    The Bible is easy to understand especially about this topic. Sex is sin outside marriage. There ya go. So any sex, any lusting is sin. They probably do not want to hear the answer to the question they might ask their pastor. We as Christians want to know that what we do aligns with Gods Word and if we are not on the path….we don’t want to hear it.

    Secular answers are not the same as the answer a Christian would get from the Word. Its not about what society says is morally right…its what God says is right. We can not serve TWO masters. People live like that today. 

    What is so complexed?

  • churchmouse

    Rat? You don’t hide your hate do you? LOL

    Heathers advice is fine for someone who is not Christian. And as I said the links beneath her article guide people towards sources that are anti-Christian.

    Sex is tied to morality for believers.

    Is incest immoral? Is pedephilia immoral? Is same sex, sex immoral? Is sex outside marriage immoral? Is prostitution moral? Is lust moral? Masterbation moral? All these are spoken about in the bible…and they are referred to as being sinful. So are they tied to morality…..YES they are.

    What does one usually think about while they masterbate? Their spouse, God? Who? So would God think that a husband who was masterbating to porn not be sinning? Lust is sin. Coveting is sin. Do people sexually fantasize during masterbation or are they praying to God?

     

    Matt 5:28-29 (NIV) [Jesus:] “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

    We are to stay away from anything that is temptation. So if someone were watching a suggestive television program or movie and there were sex acts going on………and the people watching them lusted…would this be sin? God says it would be.

    It is no use discussion this with you because you are not Christian therefore you just don’t understand, you do not know the Word.

    I will add that you keep talking about heathy, just, good relationships…

    Could these kids possibly get HIV/AIDS? Could they get STD’s,,,could a pregnancy occur? Kids who are young date around…they have multiple relationships…its part of growing up. Are you suggesting sleeping around is healthy and good and no harm can come from it?

    Talking about God with you is a waste of time.

  • mechashiva

    The Bible just tells people to abstain. It doesn’t provide any advice on how to actually go about fostering a good relationship with open communication about the stresses of abstaining from powerful sexual urges. That’s why secular answers are better, because they provide the young person with more tools than “Just Say No.”

     

    Unlike you, most people need a little more than just to be told what to do or not do.

  • arekushieru

    Many people believe that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, a prostitute.  And, even in the Bible, he enjoined his followers to not sneer at her, for washing his feet.

  • plume-assassine

     Rat? You don’t hide your hate do you? LOL

    Oh, you poor child. Maybe you should stop going around calling everyone murderers and Nazis and baby killers if they disagree with you? How about that?

     

    Sex is tied to morality for believers.

    That’s great, then you can keep your personal morality to yourself and stop trying to push it on everyone else. Let other believers come to terms about sex on their own. Not every Christian believes that sex and masturbation outside of marriage is wrong. (And don’t give me the no-true-scotsman fallacy either… yes, They are true Christians.)

     

    Is incest immoral? Is pedephilia immoral?

    The lack of consent that goes with incest and pedophilia mean that it is no longer sexual; it is now an act of violence and malice.

     

    So, my assertion that sexuality is not tied to morality is still true.

     

    Is same sex, sex immoral? Is sex outside marriage immoral? Is prostitution moral? Is lust moral? Masterbation moral? All these are spoken about in the bible…and they are referred to as being sinful. So are they tied to morality…..YES they are.

     

    All of these acts, as long as they involve consenting people, are not immoral.

    The Bible mentions these things, but it is not a source of objective, universal truth. Truth and reality does not come from one single source. In fact, there are many immoral passages in the Bible. Educate yourself. You are fine to interpret the Bible as YOUR personal morality, but do not force it onto others, including other believers.

     

    What does one usually think about while they masterbate? Their spouse, God? Who? So would God think that a husband who was masterbating to porn not be sinning? Lust is sin. Coveting is sin. Do people sexually fantasize during masterbation or are they praying to God?

    It sounds like you have some irrational guilt about your masturbation habits.

     

    Masturbation and “thought” does not harm anyone, regardless of whether one thinks it is a “sin” or not. Prove to me how masturbation, a normal and private sexual act, can harm a person. It also does not harm God, if you assume that God is all-powerful and all-knowing.

     

    It is no use discussion this with you because you are not Christian therefore you just don’t understand, you do not know the Word.

    This is a logical fallacy. One does not have to be a Christian to understand the Bible and the interpretation of the Word. If you believe in God, then you believe that I was “given” a brain like any other normal-functioning person, and I am just as capable as understanding the Bible as anyone else. In fact, I would say that I know more about the Bible and the supposed-word-of-God then certain Christians who have never actually read the Bible in its entirety.

     

    Could these kids possibly get HIV/AIDS? Could they get STD’s,,,could a pregnancy occur? Kids who are young date around…they have multiple relationships…its part of growing up. Are you suggesting sleeping around is healthy and good and no harm can come from it?

    You acknowledge that kids date around and are looking to experiment sexually. This is exactly why we need to educate teenagers about using condoms and birth control, if they choose to be sexual, so that they can protect themselves and others.

    Could they contract HIV or other STD’s or become pregnant? Yes, but is that a conscious drive on a teenager’s part to inflict someone with AIDs or herpes or contract these diseases? No. Does it automatically mean that an entire relationship is unhealthy if one ore more people have an STD? No, there are many people with STD’s who still enjoy a normal dating life or romantic married life and do all in their power to stop the spread of their infection to others.

     

    Are you suggesting sleeping around is healthy and good and no harm can come from it?

    Way to try and twist my words. “Sleeping around” is healthy insofar as the person doing it believes it is beneficial or healthy… If you are using protection, show mutual consent and respect, then it is healthy. Promiscuous sex or sex in general is not for everyone; it is up to the individual to determine if it is right for them. This is what Heather Corinna’s advice column is about.

     

    One’s sexual choices and sexuality should not be determined by others, which is exactly what you would like to do.

  • arekushieru

    One point of disagreement, though and something that is more likely to make me unpopular, here, than any other reference I’ve made in the past….  ><;

    I don’t believe incest is always non-consensual.  Certainly, the majority of cases are non-consensual.  But I don’t think that is inherent in the act of incest, itself. I think it’s inherent in the authoritarian/subordinate style relationship that these acts generally take on, much like the authoritarian/subordinate style relationships they take on in the military. 

  • arekushieru

    Tell me, how did Adam and Eve’s children have children, if you interpret the Bible, literally?  In the Bible those that begat offspring were named.  And, even if Cain and Abel had a sister who remained unnamed for some mysterious reason, how did she have children without having children with one of her brothers?  After all, the common, literal interpretation of the bible, is that Adam and Eve were the only two people created by God.  Who ELSE could their daughter have had children with, then????

    Pedophilia IS immoral, since it involves two completely different stages of development with differing levels of ability to consent.

    Homosexuality is not immoral, since Sodom and Gomorrah were lectured for practicing infiDELity, not homosexual acts and they were demolished because they raped an angel.  And, again, this passage about infidelity speaks to the point about sex outside a marriage/committed relationship (marriage is actually a pagan custom), meaning it is directed at those who have consensual relationships with someone OTHER than their partner(s).

    Again, I refer you to my point about Mary Magdalene in an earlier post.  Do I believe prostitution is a result of oppression, even when someone chooses to dedicate their lives to sex-work?  Yes.  Do I think it’s immoral?  No.  And neither did Jesus, obviously.  

    As for the other two, what can you expect when the Bible is interpreted and written (and re-written) by men?  Sometimes they get it right (albeit, perhaps not intentionally), other times they miss the point, entirely (maybe not intentionally, but certainly, very likely, more often intentional than when compared to when they do get it right).

    If you expect anyone to be praying to God during coitus, then you are seriously naive.  Besides, everyone is selfish.  Even those who are not Christian out of fear of God.  They want to experience the peace and hope God brings for themselves.  The bible speaks against Greed, something extreme right-wing ProLife Conservative fundamentalists actually endorse.

    Could these kids possibly get HIV/AIDS? Could they get STD’s,,,could a pregnancy occur? Kids who are young date around…they have multiple relationships…its part of growing up. Are you suggesting sleeping around is healthy and good and no harm can come from it?

    Ehhem, let me rephrase: Could these kids, who practice unprotected sex due to abstinence-only sex-ed policies, possibly get HIV/Aids, at a rate higher than those who practice protected sex due to comprehensive sex-ed policies?  Could they get STD’s,,,could a pregnancy occur, at a rate higher than those who practice protected sex due to comprehensive sex-ed policies?  Kids who are young date around…they have multiple relationships…its part of growing up. Are you suggesting sleeping around, without the knowledge to effectively protect your sex, is healthy and good and no harm can come from it?

    Or:

    Could these kids, who get pregnant at increasingly higher rates than those who received comprehensive sex-ed, possibly get HIV/Aids, at a rate higher than those who do not get pregnant (or pregnant as frequently) as those who practice such policies?  Could they get STD’s…again, at a rate higher than those who practice such policies?  Kids who are young date around…they have multiple relationships…its part of growing up.  Are you suggesting that frequent and successive pregnancies are healthy and good and no harm can come from them?

    Talking about God with you is a waste of time.


  • plume-assassine

    I understand where you’re coming from. But the reason I add incest into the category of a non-consensual act is because the majority of cases usually result from a history of psychological or physical abuse or neglect in the family, not necessarily between the two family members involved, but it is there. It is also for the reason you gave; the authoritarian/subordination that is usually present. That is why it is very difficult to determine consent, and in general why I put it in the same category as pedophilia. Are there healthy consenting adults with no history of abuse and no imbalance of power who have an incestuous relationship (who deserve to be left alone and allowed to continue their relationship)? Yes, certainly, but that is a rare minority.

  • arekushieru

    …I spoke too soon!  ><;

  • arekushieru

    And I absolutely agree with you, lpa.  Thanks for your own thoughts on the subject!  And for being able to respond in such a rational manner.  :)

  • jayn

    I’m generally pretty sceptical about biblical interpretation to begin with.  Aside from how many different ways it’s been interpreted (which alone makes it’s ability to point one towards moral behaviour iffy), we’re pretty much always working from translations, and you don’t have to have any background in scriptural analysis to know that translations always lose meaning.  Although I find the field fascinating, it’s not something I rely on much to determine what is and isn’t ‘good’ behaviour.

  • catseye71352

    Unless your father wants to throw you to a mob of rapists to save his OWN skin.