Pro-Lifers Stand Up for… Murder?


See also other RH Reality Check reporting on this issue.

The National Right to Life’s website promises the following: “Right to life issues including abortion, euthanasia and infanticide. Tracking pro-life legislation including stem cell research and cloning.” Infanticide? Interesting. What about homicide? Is murder a right-to-life issue?

As Mother Jones reports, South Dakota’s state legislature will soon vote on a bill that would make it okay to kill someone in order to prevent him or her from “killing” or inflicting “great personal injury” upon one’s family member OR the unborn child of one’s family member. (Hat tip to Choire Sicha at The Awl.)

The bill is described as “An Act to expand the definition of justifiable homicide to provide for the protection of certain unborn children.”

This marks a fascinating departure from the Personhood approach to anti-abortion legislation—proposing bills that define a fertilized egg as a person—and helps clarify the tactics of the “pro-life” movement: unambiguous intimidation and violence. The pro-life movement, once (maybe?) a measured philosophical position, is now dominated by tyrannical ideologues whose threat to their opponents is quite literal.

How did a movement that purports to value life from the moment of conception get so fixated on violence? Kate Sheppard in Mother Jones reminds us that eight abortion doctors have been murdered since 1993; the latest doctor-killer, Scott Roeder, came to the pro-life movement just a few years before he murdered Dr. George Tiller. Before his involvement with church-based anti-abortion activities, he was part of the anti-government, anti-bank Freemen. After he killed Tiller, his wife said that Roeder “wanted a scapegoat.

It is not uncommon for extremist assassins to cycle through “philosophies,” or causes, seeking an outlet for their disappointment, sadness, or rage, but also seeking a community. So what about the pro-life community, most of whom will not resort to violence? Presumably, the legislators supporting the Justifiable Homicide amendment are in this group. But is their opposition to abortion any more coherent than Scott Roeder’s? These South Dakota conservatives want the government to keep its hands off their guns, their income, and their wasteful, morally abhorrent system of providing (that is, not providing) health care, but they demand that the government intervene on behalf of fertilized eggs everywhere.

This is not a new story, of course: the religious right has been inconsistent and morally baffling at least since the rise of the pro-life movement and political Evangelicals in the 70s. But what I’m most interested in as South Dakota legislators propose that we condone “pro-life” killings is the true source of these legislators’ anger. Abortion providers, I’m convinced, are only a scapegoat. South Dakotans, what makes you so angry that you would spend taxpayers’ money writing this totally insane law? Are you angry at the women who get abortions? Why? Or are you angry that life is confusing and difficult, and no one can find a job, and America is on the edge of some sort of abyss?

Please sit down and think, South Dakota. I’m sick  of  your  bullshit.

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  • catseye71352

    The economy is collapsing around our ears, and all these moral imbeciles can come up with is a law that will encourage murder attempts? Wow……..just….wow.

  • sonicnylon

    Any use of the term, “pro-life” is and has ever been dishonest. But it has become a grim and twisted joke that the misogynistic — and misanthropic — religious right is becoming not just contemptuous of human life but outrightly dangerous in their demagogic evocation of violence. My personal favorite “pro-life” murder advocate is the Catholic priest who stated that the late Pope John Paul II should have been assassinated for insufficient implacability in his opposition to birth control!

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

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  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

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  • prochoiceferret

    It is unlike any surgical procedure on earth because it is one the abortionist does to KILL HUMAN LIFE.

     

    Actually, that makes it a lot like cancer treatment. (The tumor has human DNA, right? And it’s not dead, right? Therefore, it’s “HUMAN LIFE.”)

     

    The moral imbecile is the one who condones such a practice. Their hearts are hardened so much so that they cant see or identify the truth.

     

    So “pro-lifers” are moral imbeciles, then.

     

    Abortion is murder in the truest sense of the word.

     

    Then I guess you live in a country with millions of murderers, all around you.

  • beenthere72

    You talk about taxpayer money……..why should mine go to murder that which you want to dispose and kill?

     

    I just read an article about free childcare in high schools in Upstate NY.  Most of the comments to the article were from people bitching about their taxes going to pay for programs that support those young mothers.    I’m sure these same people bitch about their taxes going towards abortions too.   Either way they’re punishing women (in this case, teen girls) for getting pregnant. 

     

    Shouldn’t you be in a tizzy over support and care for women AFTER they have babies so that more women will WANT to have babies?

  • goatini

    So, what is it when a fertilized egg is, as most fertilzed eggs are, sloughed off in the monthly flow of the uterine lining, and flushed down the toilet?  Is my toilet now a crime scene?

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

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  • goatini

    (that has a miniscule chance of even adhering to the uterine wall, much less making it to full term…)

    with a living, breathing human WOMAN…

    is beyond “idiotic” and “desperate”.  

    It’s vicious and evil, and demonstrates a depraved indifference to human life.

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    It might to people who can’t rationalize. To equate a human LIFE….with a body part is to idiotic to comment on and shows the desperate nature to which you will stoop to support your position.

     

    Sorry, but you have failed to show that cancerous tumors are not “human LIFE.” I’m sure you feel really strongly abut your “pro-life” beliefs, but when they are utterly demolished by basic logic, then… well… that does make you idiotic for believing in them.

     

    I live in a country that has lost its moral footing. I live among people like you who simply do not care about life. Morality is relative to you…there is no right and wrong. In the end you will see who was right.

     

    Hey, I remember an avowed racist saying something like that once!

  • saltyc

    Churchmouse YOU are equating a zygote with a person like you, me or a woman who needs an abortion, and THAT is irrational. To use this irrationality to justify actual murder is criminal. You haven’t yet come against this law or made any statement condemning actual murder, so it’s safe to assume that you do support murder in the name of ‘life’.

    I don’t think animals are equal to human, and I doubt I know anyone who does, though I do believe they are entitled to fair treatment because they think and feel and …. have a beating heart. But… since you brought it up, why doesn’t caring about animals count as caring about life? I had one abortion. How many animals have you eaten?

    I care about life, a lot more than you think I do and I more than you do because the people I help (the women I help to get abortions) actually thank me, all of them do. What percentage of women you shout at thank you? And I am against killing people, including capital punishment and war, but you support killing abortion doctors.

    And when is that “end” that you speak of when we’ll see who’s right? Life is not a game or a movie with a defined end when the good win and the bad lose. There is no end until you die, alone, then you don’t know anything.

    I do believe in right and wrong, or else I wouldn’t do volunteer work or help people or animals. What I don’t do is pretend that I have a direct line to the creator of all things and that I know what that being thinks or that such a direct line entitles one to murder. That’s the height of presumption. I listen to what people who are directly affected by a subject say and read from many sources and I base my morals on careful consideration of these things, and I have changed my mind many times. I suppose some people can’t accept that nobody has ultimate moral authority and want a rigid code to live by. Quite a lot of needless suffering results from this.

  • arekushieru

    Abortion is the termination of the implantation of the fetal portion of the placenta into the uterus.  How is it that you could NOT know that, when it’s only be repeated to you… oh… about seven gazillion times?

    It is one an abortionist performs to remove, as per the woman’s request, consent to sharing her organs.  And the procedures that facilitate it are used to grant a woman her right to medical privacy.  That you harp on the fact that it ends fetal life tells me how much you salivate and hunger to punish women merely for the presence of her uterus.

    The immediately above of which makes this:

    The moral imbecile is the one who condones such a practice. Their hearts are hardened so much so that they cant see or identify the truth.

    the most accurate description of you in the truest sense of the word.

    Abortion isn’t killing, it isn’t done with malice, it isn’t done with aforethought and it isn’t illegal.  Why do I so rarely see ProLifers protesting the death penalty, though?  Because the death penalty has fewer obstructions in its path to becoming murder.  Meaning the ONLY thing, unlike abortion, that prevents the death penalty from becoming murder is its legality.

     

  • arekushieru

    Who are these mythical ‘pro-aborts’ you keep referring to?  The only one I see blinded by the truth… is you.

    Pro-life is what is sounds like….LIFE. Do you deny that what has been conceived in the womb is HUMAN LIFE? What is any abortionists goal? The goal my dear is to END LIFE TO KILL IT. How could this be prolife?

    So… I guess born humans aren’t life… in your generous estimation…? You ask how it could be prolife?  How about the fact that women ARE living, breathing humans and don’t deserve to be punished for the way their anatomy is constructed?

    What do you call someone who kills a life without permission? Is it less a life because it can’t communicate? Should we kill all mentally inpaired people, people in comas?

    The (blatantly obvious) thing is, the woman gave her permission as the guardian with the right to determine what medical treatment a dependant receives.  If the fetus is not a dependant, then it should be able to survive on its own outside of her uterus.  The woman also gave her permission as a fully autonomous individual with the right to determine who uses her body and when and how it is used.  You DO know that you don’t receive permission from a fetus when it is birthed… right…?

    What is morally baffling is why God would allow any one of you to procreate based on your views…that is morally baffling. You paint a bullseye on every life in a womb and you have the gall to sit back and PRETEND THAT YOUR POSITION IS MORAL?

     No, what is TRULY morally baffling is why God would allow any one of you to procreate based on YOUR views.  Your views that you can terminate any unwanted pregnancy yet keep a wanted pregnancy and use that to sit back and judge others for terminating their OWN unwanted pregnancies and, then, have the gall to pretend that YOUR position is moral.  God is not a misogynist, btw.  He’s a feminist.  You have *clearly* been deceived by Satan.

    You talk about taxpayer money……..why should mine go to murder that which you want to dispose and kill?

    Why should mine go to murder non-combatants, in war, that, typically, the majority of ProLifers want to dispose of and kill?

     It makes me ill that someone who is pro-abortion would even bring religion into the equation because on every level God does not condone the choice that woman are allowed to make. No where in the Bible does God say murdering the unborn is acceptable. He created life and we do not have the right to take it away. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit for those who believe, therefore it is not our own.

    No one, here, is ProAbortion.  And, if you interpret the Bible, literally, God says murder is acceptable if it is done in His name.  If you interpret the Bible, literally, God says abortion is acceptable, if it is done against a woman’s wishes.  (So, then, you must truly believe that *God* is Pro-Abortion. Good thing, I don’t, since the Bible was interpreted and re-written by privileged, upper-class, oppressive males who lived in a different time.) You must also believe that the fetus and woman are NOT equal in God’s eyes.  We do not have the right to give it OR take it away, then.  Because BOTH are ‘playing God’, it’s just that you anti-choicers tend to conveniently forget that. The Holy Spirit is what grants us our free will, if you are a true believer.  Therefore our bodies are temples to our own free will and thus our bodies ARE our own.

    However, it is illuminating to see just how far you’ve been deceived by Satan.

    Life is not difficult if you do the right thing and if you stand on truth………that is what you don’t get. You stand on the side of darkness and as we can see here you are struggling with that. You poor thing.

    So says the privileged individual speaking out of both sides of her mouth. (Gee, who ELSE do we know that does that?)  First you say you don’t want to pay for the health care of the poor, pregnant women and/or their families.  THEN you say that you don’t want to be forced to pay for abortions (even though, all the while, you want to force others to pay for things THEY think are immoral).  Denial of privilege and health care to those who need it and perpetuation of unemployment and abuse.  Now THAT is the true side of darkness, especially when it takes a real self-absorbed individual to be unaware of the suffering that IS currently going on in the world, suffering that the majority of anti-choicers enDORSE with their policies, thereby making it imPOSsible to aVOID that suffering. You poor thing, it must be SO tough to live in such ignorance, your whole life, and not see how simplistic solutions very RAREly work.  

     

  • beenthere72

    But… since you brought it up, why doesn’t caring about animals count as caring about life? I had one abortion. How many animals have you eaten?

     

    This made me LOL.

     

    And the rest of your post was pure awesome.

  • arekushieru

    It might to people who can’t rationalize. To equate a human LIFE….with a body part is to idiotic to comment on and shows the desperate nature to which you will stoop to support your position. You probably no doubt think animals are equal to humans don’t you? You would picket to stop the slaughter of seals…but you champion the slaughter of human babies in the womb.

    Actually, that was an attempt by PCF to demonstrate how insupportable most anti-choice conclusions are about human life, one that went straight over your head.  So, no, the desperation isn’t on our part. I don’t think *non-human* (because humans ARE animals, btw) animals are ‘equal’ to humans, but I DO think they should be protected FROM human encroachment.  Abortion isn’t slaughter, nor are there babies involved. (I’m an eternal optimist, I guess.  I hope that one of these days, after enough repetition, you’ll eVENTually get it through your head.)

    I live in a country that has lost its moral footing. I live among people like you who simply do not care about life. Morality is relative to you…there is no right and wrong. In the end you will see who was right.

    Yes, you do, because it doesn’t see women as human lives OR people. You live among people like yourself, who simply do not care about those lives, simply because you, too, do not care about your own gender or see yourself as a person or human life.  Morality is relative to YOU.  You don’t want to grant a similar right to life to those born, that you would grant to feoti.  So, what else CAN it be BUT moraly relativity?


  • freetobe

    What is morally baffling is why God would allow any one of you to procreate based on your views…that is morally baffling. You paint a bullseye on every life in a womb and you have the gall to sit back and PRETEND THAT YOUR POSITION IS MORAL?

     

    What is so morally baffling about this statement Churchmouse is that you are not God. We are not in church. You have no right to preach here unless of course you have NEVER EVER SINNED in your whole life. If you were a true christian you would know that.

    Go pray to your God for forgiveness and leave us alone.

  • plume-assassine

    You know what all of your blathering means to me? It means that you think murdering doctors is “justifiable homicide”… which, in turn, means that you are not pro-life at all. You are all about punishing women and celebrating the murder of anyone who wants to help women exercise their freedom of reproductive choice.

     

    You want people to value embryonic and fetal life MORE than women. There is no reason that society must respect embryonic or fetal life at all costs, regardless of a woman’s life or circumstances, because doing so would devalue the woman carrying that fetus. If this is too hard for you to understand, then I can make a chart for you, if it will help…

     

     Morality is relative to you…there is no right and wrong. In the end you will see who was right.

    You do not have the monopoly on truth or morality, so stop pretending that anyone who disagrees with you is “evil” or practices “relative morality.”

     

     

     

  • ldan

    *applause*

     

    I keep wondering why a human embryo, which can’t suffer, warrants all this hand-wringing from the same people who don’t care about the animal suffering going into their omlets. I mean, I get that humans are more important than other animals in the larger scheme or things, particularly from the viewpoint of a human. But isn’t suffering bad too? Is it moral to focus on one perceived immorality and ignore all the rest because you’ve got your one moral focus to hold high?

  • churchmouse

    There is nothing mythical about pro-aborts. It is anyone who condones abortion even if they would not choose to do it themselves.

    Sad that you think the female anatomy got the bad rap that kids are a horrible thing. Do hope you do not have any.

     

    Obviously what you learned in Church never transferred from your head to your heart..that explains the hardness of your heart. What you observed was a society that began to live without God…whose people rejected the truth of the Word and began to sink in to the moral abyss of darkness. Truth is relative to you…there is no right, no wrong. Killing therefore is acceptable and it is held up as a badge of honor to all those who do it. What you are doing doctor is killing, murdering living human beings. The blood is directly on your hands.

    The women who died by coat hanger were few are far between. We should not make something legal simply to stop the few that might go to extremes. You use stories like this in the same way we use examples like you to show the face of abortion.

    Gosnell was a murderer in the first degree. His sole purpose was to kill humans in the womb from conception to nine months. The fact that you condone what he did shows your heart or the lack of one that is.

     So from your statement here you obviously are one who condones abortion throughout the pregnancy and viability makes no difference. Don’t give me the crap that viability matters……you would never enslave a woman who wanted to abort at nine months…right? I mean that would be totally hypocritical wouldn’t it? What is morally baffling is the fact that you are here at all debating this…..issue. I loved what Ronald Reagan said about abortion…….” I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”

    I have every right to judge abortion and those who condone it. You just judged me here, but you’re so blind you can’t see it. I have a right to protect myself against evil in any form I see it. And I believe the pro-choice abortion position is evil as is those who condone it.

    God……….who is God and what was His plan? For his creation to kill their young? Find me one passage in the bible where Christ condoned abortion. I will give you many that say the opposite. You are sinking…

    You say no one is pro-abortion. WHY? ARE YOU OPPOSED TO BEING CALLED A PRO-ABORT? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ABORTION? IF THERE IS, WHY DO YOU CONDONE IT THEN? Being pro-choice is the same thing..

    It is vile and sick that you think that anyone would have an abortion AND DO IT IN CHRISTS NAME. That shows what a pagan you are. You are so far from the truth that its sad. Satan is something I am sure you know a lot about.

    Obviously you know nothing about Christianity…and anyone can debate this issue without even bringing up God. Science is not on your side either…..

  • cmarie

    I’m not pro-life.  Pro lifers oppose abortion across the board regardless of circumstances (xcpt the mother’s life).  Still, I am anti abortion and I have to agree with the author…. this legislation is a bad idea…. it sends the message that its alright to kill anyone who potentially might be involved in an abortion and I can see it being used in court as part of a defense strategy.

  • arekushieru

    Just wanted to point out, though, that, I think Leviticus 20:13 was referring to infidelity, of ALL stripes, rather than homosexuality.  And that, anyone who uses the argument AE uses, is rightly trumped by the point that Jesus didn’t come to wipe away the OT but to fulFILL it.  

  • rebellious-grrl

    Hell yeah la plume assassine!

    Brilliantly stated and great cartoon! I can’t even respond to the mouse anymore. She keeps babbling that nonsensical crap.

    You may want to work on that chart because she aint gettin it.

  • arekushieru

    There is nothing mythical about pro-aborts. It is anyone who condones abortion even if they would not choose to do it themselves.

    ‘Pro-aborts’ are people who would convince someone else to have an abortion.  I don’t.  I believe it is entirely up to the woman to choose to terminate OR continue a pregnancy.

    Sad that you think the female anatomy got the bad rap that kids are a horrible thing. Do hope you do not have any.

    Sad that you think that the female anatomy should determine that any hopes, dreams, wishes and desires she has beyond wanting children or being more than an incubator are a horrible thing.  Because of THAT, you got your wish.

     So from your statement here you obviously are one who condones abortion throughout the pregnancy and viability makes no difference. Don’t give me the crap that viability matters……you would never enslave a woman who wanted to abort at nine months…right? I mean that would be totally hypocritical wouldn’t it? What is morally baffling is the fact that you are here at all debating this…..issue. I loved what Ronald Reagan said about abortion…….” I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”

    Dr. Gosnell killed BORN humans.  Obviously, your reading comprehension is STILL lacking.

    And, that quote, right there, PROVES you have no idea what ProChoice really stands for and WHY I take exception to the use of the term ‘Pro-Abort’.  

    Here is my own quote: I notice that everybody that is against abortion had mothers that wanted them.

    I have every right to judge abortion and those who condone it. You just judged me here, but you’re so blind you can’t see it. I have a right to protect myself against evil in any form I see it. And I believe the pro-choice abortion position is evil as is those who condone it.

    Then we have every right to judge you for condoning the ‘murder’ of innocent organ recipients.  Moral relativity at its finest.

    I didn’t judge you.  I simply provided a correct interpretation of and correlation to the term murder.

    If the anti-choice movement truly believed abortion was evil, then they wouldn’t condone the murder of actual innocent human beings NOR would they deny the right to life that they would grant to feoti to anyone BUT them.

    God……….who is God and what was His plan? For his creation to kill their young? Find me one passage in the bible where Christ condoned abortion. I will give you many that say the opposite. You are sinking…

     

    I already referenced the passages where the Bible condoned abortion. There ARE no passages that condemn abortion.  Christ and God are not the same.  I mean, hello, Christian Unitarian Universalist, here.

    You say no one is pro-abortion. WHY? ARE YOU OPPOSED TO BEING CALLED A PRO-ABORT? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ABORTION? IF THERE IS, WHY DO YOU CONDONE IT THEN? Being pro-choice is the same thing..


    I explained why above.  I’m not going to repeat it, here, again, for you.  But I will say this, your desperation is becoming more clearly evident with each post you make.  

    It is vile and sick that you think that anyone would have an abortion AND DO IT IN CHRISTS NAME. That shows what a pagan you are. You are so far from the truth that its sad. Satan is something I am sure you know a lot about.

    It is vile and sick that you think that women can be enslaved and raped for nine-months in the name of Jesus Christ, the most feminist individual, alive and/or in literature.  So, Satan is definitely not someone *I* associate myself with.

    Obviously you know nothing about Christianity…and anyone can debate this issue without even bringing up God. Science is not on your side either…..


    So says the person who has been unable to debate using either God OR science, at least not peer-reviewed, medically accredited science, either with OR against it.  

     

  • plume-assassine

    Churchmouse, for someone who claims to be a 50-year-old woman with the supreme moral authority on reproduction – you seriously don’t even understand what you are writing. It’s sad that you can’t comprehend your own argument, much less the other side’s.

     

    There is nothing mythical about pro-aborts. It is anyone who condones abortion even if they would not choose to do it themselves.

    Fail. Thanks for demonstrating your ignorance. Pro-choicers condone ALL options during pregnancy, not just abortion. Pro-abortion folks think that abortion is the ONLY option and want to force that on others, therefore they are not pro-choice, and are just as bad as you, the pro-lifer, who is also anti-choice. Pro-choicers are only “pro-abortion” in the sense that anyone is “pro-penicillin” or “pro-kidney dialysis” — if you need it, then you should have it.

     

    that kids are a horrible thing. Do hope you do not have any.

    Wrong again. Are you not aware that most women who have abortions are ALREADY MOTHERS or will have children in the future? This is a statistical fact. Look it up.

     

    And if you hope that somebody does not have children… then wouldn’t you want them to have all available options, including condoms, birth control, and abortion?

     

    The women who died by coat hanger were few are far between. We should not make something legal simply to stop the few that might go to extremes

    Wrong. Either you are stupid, or you are a liar — one who delights in the death of women, no matter how few or how many. Is it too much fun for you to stop lying? Does your God tell you to lie?

     

    “The World Health Organization estimates that of the approximately 600,000 pregnancy-related deaths each year, 78,000 are related to complications resulting from unsafe abortion. In Latin America, as many as 21% of maternal deaths are estimated to be associated with unsafe abortion. Many women experiencing complications from unsafe abortion, particularly those who live in rural areas, do not have access to appropriate medical treatment. Others do not seek treatment because of fear, embarrassment, shame or poverty.

    By legalizing abortion, countries can help reduce or eliminate the need for unsafe abortion. This, in turn, will significantly lessen the number of deaths related to abortion, reduce the likelihood of complications and improve women’s subsequent health.”

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html

     

    Gosnell was a murderer in the first degree. His sole purpose was to kill humans in the womb from conception to nine months. The fact that you condone what he did shows your heart or the lack of one that is.

    Nobody on this web site has EVER defended or condoned what Gosnell did, which was illegal, unclean, and dangerous. You make the mistake of assuming that all abortion doctors are like Gosnell. Defending access to late-term abortion is not the same as defending a horrorshow like Gosnell.

     

    I loved what Ronald Reagan said about abortion

    Ronald Reagan was senile and supported violent tactics that led to the training of Al-qaida by the CIA.

     

    I have every right to judge abortion and those who condone it. You just judged me here, but you’re so blind you can’t see it. I have a right to protect myself against evil in any form I see it. And I believe the pro-choice abortion position is evil as is those who condone it.

    If you think that you erroneously believe that you have the right to judge others for their reproductive choice, then that means I have the right to judge yours. You never answered me before, but let’s try again: How would you like it if I said that you were not allowed to have kids and that you needed to get sterilized? How would you like it if I said that you needed to have 10 children, or else risk going to jail?

     

    By the way, you mentioned before that your daughter (or granddaughter) had a life-saving abortion due to ectopic pregnancy. That means that you condone abortion. Is she an evil murderer? How did you reconcile this with your twisted beliefs? Would you forgive someone so readily if you knew that they killed a 5-year-old child?

     

    God……….who is God and what was His plan? For his creation to kill their young? Find me one passage in the bible where Christ condoned abortion. I will give you many that say the opposite. You are sinking…

     

    It looks like you are struggling with this. Maybe this will help you: Why Abortion is Biblical

     

    I’m still waiting for you to answer my other question. Do you think that it is pro-life for someone to murder a doctor and call it ”justifiable homicide”? Do you think that it is pro-life to celebrate the murder of a doctor?

    Here’s my theory about you, Churchmouse: you won’t read or respond to my posts because you are afraid of the truth.

  • plume-assassine

    Go Arekushieru!

    So says the person who has been unable to debate using either God OR science, at least not peer-reviewed, medically accredited science, either with OR against it.  

    This made me laugh, because she thinks that “science” is on her side, yet she has commented before that abortion causes breast cancer, infertility, and mental problems… all myths that have been thoroughly debunked by science. LOL

  • plume-assassine

    I have always struggled with some of the immoral passages in the Bible. You are right that the Bible speaks out explicitly against infidelity, so I think that passage could be interpreted either way. It never sat right with me that the punishment for infidelity or any other crime (perceived or actual) should be murder though. The Old Testament is terribly barbaric in comparison to the philosophy of Jesus in the New Testament.

  • churchmouse

    I do not believe in killing abortion doctors. I believe whoever does should be tried in a court of law for murder.

    You site biblical scriptures…..but you obviously do not know the difference between Old Testament law and the New Testament Law. Go educate yourself.

    You are a moral relativist….no right no wrong…all in the eye of the beholder.   

  • churchmouse

    You are not anti abortion if you condone anyone getting one. As Randy Alcorn says, “Being personally against abortion but favoring another’s right to abortion is self-contradictory and morally baffling. It’s like saying, “I’m against child abuse, but I defend my neighbors right to beat his children, if that is his choice.” Or “I am against genocide but if others want to kill off an entire race, that’s none of my business.”

    It is sad that you condone doctors who go against the law and abort viable fetuses. That you think they should not be held accountable under the law.

    I can only imagine the other things you condone and look away.

  • arekushieru

    A friend on Facebook provided the context of homosexuality and religion in that passage.   She explained, I believe, that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah originally held pagan beliefs, so that when the Jews first came and proscribed different beliefs and sanctions against infidelity, they believed that they were not committing infidelity when they lay with someone of the same sex.  And the passage mentioned, therein, was meant to address those beliefs the author believed were false.

    Oh, yes.  Infidelity (and, I should note that, imho, this only refers to people who have sex outSIDE of a consensual relationship or marriage contract, so even anyone with multiple partners, as in a polyamourous arrangement, – or a single domestic partnership – would be excluded from that claim, as long as the sexual relationships were, indeed, kept within that contract) is wrong, but by no means do I believe it is a crime, let aLONE a crime to be punished.  

    As for the death penalty, I am firmly against it in ALL circumstances, not least of which being the fact that the crime has already been committed, making any claims of self-defence on the topical side, moot.

     

     

  • arekushieru

    You site biblical scriptures…..but you obviously do not know the difference between Old Testament law and the New Testament Law. Go educate yourself.

    No, obviously you don’t.  If you take everything in the NT literally, then you must take everything in the OT, literally.  Because Jesus didn’t come to wipe away all things of the OT, but to fulFILL them.

    You are a moral relativist….no right no wrong…all in the eye of the beholder. 

    Right back atcha, ‘sweetheart’.  Read (and I do mean actually READ, this time) above.

  • arekushieru

    You are not anti abortion if you condone anyone getting one. As Randy Alcorn says, “Being personally against abortion but favoring another’s right to abortion is self-contradictory and morally baffling. It’s like saying, “I’m against child abuse, but I defend my neighbors right to beat his children, if that is his choice.” Or “I am against genocide but if others want to kill off an entire race, that’s none of my business

    The one who is beating his child or committing genocide is infringing on someone’s rights JUST like the fetus is.

    You are not anti-abortion if you condemn all methods and providers of preventative care for abortion. So, it’s like I said.  You aren’t ProLife or AntiAbortion, you are anti-choice.

    It is sad that you condone doctors who go against the law and abort viable fetuses. That you think they should not be held accountable under the law

    HOW many times do we have to say that this isn’t ABOUT a doctor who went against the law by aborting viable fetuses?  NOR that the law is about allowing doctors to abort viable fetus but about letting people murder them?


     


  • ldan

    She’s not likely to actually read or process any of it. The incoherence and biblical ranting finally made me determine that it’s not worth my time and sanity to bother engaging with her (and lo and behold, the post in which I argue at her and end by saying I won’t do so again never saw further response. Sign of a true troll.)

  • goatini

    with science and with medicine makes him completely non-credible.

  • arekushieru

    Oops.  Don’t know what happened, here, but just noticed the double post.  Please delete!

  • churchmouse

    In 1960, Planned Parenthood stated that 90% of all illegal abortions are presently done by physicians.”

    Mary Calderone, Illegal Abortion as a Public Health Problem,” American Journal of Health 50 (July 1960): 949

     

    “Research confirms that the actual number of abortion deaths in the 25 year prior to 1973 averaged 250 a year, with a high of 388 in 1948.”

    In 1966 before the state legalized abortion, 120 mothers died from abortion.

    By 1972, abortion was still illegal in 80% of the country but the use of antibiotics had greatly reduced the risk. The number dropped to 39 maternal deaths from abortion that year.”

     

    U.S Bureau of Vital Statistics

  • churchmouse

    And look at the posts here that slam and make fun of Christianity…that is ok though right?

  • churchmouse

    He makes a good point that you have no comeback for.

  • churchmouse

    “The one who is beating his child or committing genocide is infringing on someone’s rights JUST like the fetus is.’

    One of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. Did the fetus ask to be concieved? You could say the same thing about kids. They did not ask to be born did they? Would it be then acceptable to beat them to death?

    Did you ask your mother to be concieved?

  • churchmouse

    You have no come back…….none so therefore run.

    People run when they have got nothing.

  • prochoiceferret

    They did not ask to be born did they? Would it be then acceptable to beat them to death?

     

    Well, you seem to be okay with having killed one of them so that your daughter could survive her ectopic pregnancy. Or did you disown her for having committed murder?

  • arekushieru

    One of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. Did the fetus ask to be concieved? You could say the same thing about kids. They did not ask to be born did they? Would it be then acceptable to beat them to death?

    And, what, exactly, I would like to know, does THAT have to do with anything?  Unless you’re going to claim that pregnancy or sex infringes on fetal rights, but who, in their right minds, would continue to force said infringement on another?  Oh, snap!  *…in their right minds…*  Knew I was forgetting something.

    Did you ask your mother to be concieved? 

    Nope, but she wasn’t infringing on MY rights by doing so.  


  • arekushieru

    Really?  Or maybe you just haven’t read them like the TROLL you are.

  • arekushieru

    Yeah, because when people get slammed they tend to slam back.  Are you really that ignorant?

  • arekushieru

    And we’ve already addressed this.  Just because there were physicians attending doesn’t mean maternal mortality rates from abortion dropped, because, AS WE’VE SAID, there are a NUMBER of factors contributing to those rates.  (I’m not going to repeat them, you can actually go and READ, this time.)

    And the illegality, stigma and shame surrounding something is going to make it vastly underreported.

  • arekushieru

    So, that means you have nothing.  Got it!

  • arekushieru

    …but there’s always a chance that a lightbulb will turn on, in their heads, one of these days and I want to cover my butt as much as possible, given their tendency to place blame everywhere but themselves, before that happens, lol.

  • churchmouse

    Romans 3:20

    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    Galatians 3:23,24

    Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

    Romans 6:14

    For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

    Romans 10:4

    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Galatians 3:13

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

    Paul  argued in Ephesians… that the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” was “abolished” by the death of Jesus upon the cross (2:14-15). He uses this term twice in Romans 7:2,6 – showing that just as a wife is “discharged” from the law of her husband when he dies…. even so, through the death of the body of Christ, men were “discharged” from the obligations of the Mosaic law.

     

     

  • arekushieru

    Which doesn’t disprove anything I was saying.  The law was ended but faith has come to fulfill the promises, passages and lessons of the OT. 

  • churchmouse

    The Law is good no question about it for it is the perfection of Christ. We see it for what it is and we should honor it, but we cannot keep it perfectly. No one has ever kept it perfectly. And that is what God demands…perfection.  That is why we need Jesus. And as believers in Christ, we have His precious blood’s cleansing,his grace allowing us to stand before God as one of His own. The law was temporary until Jesus Himself came. The law was only given to bring the JEWS AND ALL MEN to Christ. That did not happen and it took God sending Jesus…so that we all could have eternal life. The law does not save it never did. Christ saves.

    “Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” {Galatians 3:24,25}

    We are no longer under the law.

    When Christ said He did not come to destroy the Law, he did not mean the Law of Moses would be forever binding on men. The Scriptures show that His death brought this law to a close. Therefore today we honor OT law but we follow what Christ says.   Paul wrote centuries later, “The Law is good” but only if you know what its purpose is.

    “Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” {Colossians 2:14}

  • saltyc

    I think what the anti-choicers in SD really want is for a case where someone is “finally” exculpated for murdering an abortion provider, they’re upset that every other instance of such a crime has resulted in a conviction. If they could get just one acquittal, that would send the fear of terror to every abortion provider, from doctors to nurses to phone volunteer. The fact that it counts if it’s the gunman’s girlfriend, daughter or mother getting the abortion highlights the regressive mentality here. The fact that an anti comes to this forum and spends a lot of time defining abortion as murder, which supports this law, then makes a single sentence saying she’s against murdering abortion providers, without supporting or mentioning why, shows that this law would have a lot of traction in the “pro-life” movement.

  • jrm83

    What do you call someone who kills a life without permission?

    Scott Roeder.

  • wolfwytch

    Hey, I’ll claim the pro-abortion label when these so-called pro-lifers call themselves what they are: pro-death; as long as they are in support of the death penalty, and war (especially the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where thousands and millions have been murdered), and these sickening bills like S.Dakota’s, they are not supporting life in any way, shape or form.

     

    When they embrace life, whether they like the way it’s being lived or not, then we can talk about how pro-life they are. When they work for these kids who are born, the homeless, the abused, the ones who have had their lives ruined by our horrendous foreign policy, then we can talk. Dis-enfranchising those with whom they disagree seems to be the modus operandi of the far-right… and it’s nothing like what they claim Jesus taught (contrary to popular belief we Pagans do know who Jesus was/written to be… and he was not a Reich-Winger, that’s for sure)

     

    Instead, these “lifers” are war-mongering, murderers… or at the very least aiding and abetting, which is nearly as bad, and just as illegal/immoral…

     

    When they’re ready to “walk the walk”, then we can talk like grown-ups.

     

  • mechashiva

    If you are using your religion as your primary argument against abortion, people are going to argue against your religion to prove you wrong, genius.

  • churchmouse

    I do not debate abortion and use religion unless the person brings it up. And more times than not the pro-abort brings it up. They think that anyone who is pro-life and against abortion would have to be religious. That says a lot..more about them than me. It shows that they ovbiously have no faith in anything….particularaly God…and that there are people who do not have a faith and still know that morally abortion is wrong.

     

     

  • squirrely-girl

    They think that anyone who is pro-life and against abortion would have to be religious. 

     

    …if it quacks like a duck… 

     

    Way to keep proving us wrong… oh wait, never mind :/

  • mechashiva

    Who brought religion up this time, churchmouse? I’m not willing to sift through this shitstorm to figure it out, but I’m familiar enough with you and your posts to know that bitching about your religion and your god is par for the course.

     

    Most pro-life activists and internet trolls are Christians whose political ideology is informed by their faith. (Or are you going to try and tell me the anti-abortion movement is NOT dominated by conservative Christianity?) Recognizing that fact indicates the ability to make predictions about your opponent based on past experience. Only an idiot would say, “Well, a tiny percentage of the movement isn’t Christian, so I’ll approach every debate as if religion had nothing to do with it.” It would be giving up an entire argument strategy to do that, and I don’t know about you, but I like having every available tool for a job at my disposal.

     

    Now, kindly tell me how the ability to draw associations and make assumptions has anything to do with faith. Do the “truly faithful” relinquish such capabilities consciously, or does being intelligent enough to make judgements automatically doom a person to faithlessness? And how do you explain the pro-choice Christians (and other religious folk) who assume any given prolifer is a Christian? Seems to me that you haven’t thought through this whole, “They assume pro-lifers are Christian, so they must not believe in anything, esspecially not my god,” schtick.

  • mechashiva

    So tell me, did Yahweh plan to send Jesus from the beginning? Or was Jesus his Plan B when it became apparent that the laws he set down weren’t going to bring all of humanity to him?

     

    Because if it is the former, your god is an asshole for ever demanding perfection in the first place. If it is the latter, then your god isn’t all-knowing.

  • ldan

    Who brought religion up this time, churchmouse? I’m not willing to sift through this shitstorm to figure it out, but I’m familiar enough with you and your posts to know that bitching about your religion and your god is par for the course.

     

    I don’t have time when pulling 13-hr days to argue with her crazy. But I can look that up before heading offline today.

     

    Way up top from ms. mouse:

     

     It makes me ill that someone who is pro-abortion would even bring religion into the equation because on every level God does not condone the choice that woman are allowed to make. No where in the Bible does God say murdering the unborn is acceptable. He created life and we do not have the right to take it away. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit for those who believe, therefore it is not our own.

  • arekushieru

    (contrary to popular belief we Pagans do know who Jesus was/written to be… and he was not a Reich-Winger, that’s for sure)

    Indeed, Jesus was a true feminist socialist.

  • catseye71352

    You’d be rightat home in Saudi Arabia. Please move there NOW.

  • churchmouse

    I am sure you will try to rip these scriptures apart…but they do not show what you say God meant.

     

    ‘Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.’

    So says the Lord.

    “For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”

    These scriptures as just some that show Gods role and order for women.

    1 Tim 2:8-11

    1 Tim 3:14,15; 2:11-15

    1 Cor 14:33b-35,37

    Eph 5:18, 22-24

    1 Pet 3:1-6

    1 Cor 11:3-10

    Prov 12:4; 14:1

    Prov 31:10-31

     

    The scriptures tell us that we as woman should teach other women…NOT MEN. We are to dress modestly. We are prohibited from exercising authoritative leadership or teaching of the word of God over men in the local church. So says the Word of God.

     

    Now if you accept the inerrancy and historical accuracy of the scriptures then you will believe the Word as it was written. If you try to pick it apart and change the meaning..this is in direct opposition to what God commanded from the beginning.

      We were formed from man….from his rib…we were created as a help mate for him. God had a prescribed order in creation and it is plain how this order should affect us all.

     

     

     

     

  • mechashiva

    Holy internalized-oppression, Batman. Seems like you don’t have any sense of your own value aside from how you relate to men (as an inferior). Sucks to be you, I guess.

     

    I think I’ll fight with my boyfriend when I’m pissed at him, dress however I want whenever I want, lecture anyone (regardless of gender) who disagrees with something I feel strongly about, educate anyone (regardless of gender) about things I know more about than they do (including religion), and expect my romantic partner/s to be MY helpmate/s if they want me to be theirs. Why? Because as a fucking PERSON, that’s what I DESERVE.

  • forced-birth-rape

    Christian bible god is not pro-life.

    Hosea 13: 16
    “Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up.”

    1 Samuel 15:3
    Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

    Exodus 11:4-5:
    And Moses said, thus says the Lord, about midnight I will go out into Egypt; and all the firstborn in the land [the pride hope and joy] of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sits on his throne, even the firstborn of the maidservant who is behind the hand mill, and all the firstborn of beasts.

    Psalms 137:9 Happy and blessed shall he be who takes and dashes your little ones against a rock!

    ~ Numbers 31:18
    But all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. The Christian god telling soldiers to rape thirteen year old and twelve year old virgins.

    Numbers 31:17
    Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who is not a virgin.

    The Christian god telling his soldiers to kill every one (proof he is not pro-life) but virgin girls because his beloved men are entitled to their much desired sex with little girl virgins. Every time I hear a soldier has invaded a country or village and raped young girls I remember how the bible says the christian god advised it so many years ago. ~

    Your vile god is extremely sadomasochistic to pregnant women and pregnant little girls while they are pregnant and while they are giving birth.
    Genesis 3:16
    I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and cravings will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. ~

    Every horrible evil thing that ever happened to me or any women or little girl I know the bible incited. ~

    Matthew 7:1-2
    Do not judge and criticize and condemn others, so that you may not be judged and criticized and condemned yourselves.

    For just as you judge and criticize and condemn others, you will be judged and criticized and condemned, and in accordance with the measure you [use to] deal out to others, it will be dealt out again to you.

    Matthew 23:13
    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in do so.

    The Christian teaching of wives to be submissive like a dog to her master, her husband is what made me a feminist, and the pro-forced-birth movement is what made me an atheist.

    I do not believe in hell but I would go there if there was one in my knowing from experience that no woman or little girl should be forced to have genital pain for any reason against her will.

  • squirrely-girl

    Does your husband know your using the interwebs without his permission? Shouldn’t you be cooking or cleaning something?

  • arekushieru

    I do not interpret the Bible, literally.  I believe the Bible is an allegory.  I am saying for all those who interpret the Bible, literally, that you cannot just throw out all the passages of the OT.  Because, if interpreted literally, Jesus came to fulfill those promises, literally, too.

    Just to reiterate some of the points that I raised, earlier, and haven’t, over my beliefs about the Bible:  I believe the Bible is an allegory.  I believe the Bible discusses evolution, not creationism, whether that evolution is civil, ecumenical, social, cultural OR physical.  I don’t believe Adam and Eve are real people.  I believe Satan is not a physical but a metaphorical entity, that Satan represents the world.  I believe that Satan and Lucifer are NOT interchangeable.  (Lucifer is a Christian bastardization of Helel.)  I believe that Hell is a Christian bastardization of Hela’s (the Viking goddess of death) realm.  I believe Jesus is divinely-inspired (holy) but not divine.  I believe that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are NOT interchangeable as is the case in Trinitarian beliefs.  I believe that every Christian is saved through acceptance of Jesus as their saviour, already.  I believe Jesus is a feminist and socialist.  I believe that Adam, in the allegory, had two wives.  Lilith, who was his first wife, and Eve.  I believe that Lilith was killed because she was an ‘uppity woman’.  I believe that Eve was created to take her place, as a submissive woman, but disproved that was the case when she enjoined Adam to eat from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  I believe that Eve got the disproportionately greater punishment for the disproportionately lesser evil compared to what Adam received.  

    Oh, yeah, and I also believe that the Bible was written and re-written and re-interpreted by men.  (The evolution I spoke of is showcased through the evolution of their writings.) 

  • churchmouse

    I said that the breast link is being studied. Do you know for a fact that not ONE WOMAN has suffered mentally from abortion? Not one woman…….

    Science is on the side of life. Life starts at conception. Show a link to something that shows differently.

    Links to infertility.

    http://www.suite101.com/content/the-dangers-of-abortion-a75227

    http://www.realoptions.net/abortion_risks.html

    http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1645.aspx?CategoryID=60&SubCategoryID=177

    http://www.ehow.com/about_6650933_medical-process-abortion.html

    http://catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0037.html

    You look at any even pro-abort website they list depression.

    Tell me what a woman could possibly be depressed about?

  • mechashiva

    The World Health Orgnanization and EVERY SINGLE major, credible cancer-research organization in the US has studied the supposed link between abortion and breast cancer. They have all concluded that there is not evidence suggesting a causal relationship between the two. Here is an excellent article (written by an oncologist) on the subject:

     

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2749

     

    On conception: I don’t particularly care when life begins. I care about when life becomes meaningful. If a fertility clinic was burning down, would you save the child in the waiting room or run to the back to pick up a dish with a few hundred frozen blastocysts in it?

     

    Newsflash, genius: Pregnancy results in hormonal changes. Ending pregnancy (either through birth or abortion, but more commonly after birth… hello, post-partum depression) results in a rapid reversal of those changes and can result in temporary depression. Also, people often grieve after abortion because it is a sucky thing to go through, but very few (a statistically negligible percentage) are traumatized by the experience. No one here is saying going through an abortion is emotionally neutral, but you antis make it out to be far worse than it generally is.

     

    Also, abortion does not cause infertility. If abortion caused infertility, we’d be seeing an empidemic of women unable to get pregnant… you know, since 1/3 of American women have had abortions. Yes, there are risks of uteran perforation and the development of PID (which can cause infertility), but abortion has the lowest rate of complications of any surgery performed in America. It is safer than having your tonsils taken out.

  • churchmouse

    I would go one on one with you anyday anytime.

    I have answered your question many times on this forum.

    So listen this time.

    I am AGAINST ANYONE TAKING THE LIFE OF ANYONE IF IT IS NOT SELF DEFENSE.

    Now listen………that means do I think the man who killed Tiller was wrong and should pay for his crime yes. Am I happy his work came to an end. YES

    Now that probably blows your socks off right? I am also against the death penalty…so go fix yourself a stiff drink and celebrate.

     

    I believe I stand on the truth…..you don’t. Your position is morally baffling and all over the place. You hide behind words…and you run when the going gets tough. You want to pretend that you are pro-life but in the truest definition you couldnt be further from the truth. You are a pretender….pretend you have compassion, pretend you care, pretend you are moral.

     

  • churchmouse

    Oh not that fast. I am not going anywhere and you have no right to ask me. I am not using vulgar language like the people who share your opinion do here…I am simply expressing an opintion that you find immoral. You think its acceptable to kill unborn children up until nine months in the womb…I do not.

    I wouldnt think of telling you to shut up or go away…I welcome dialogue, because the truth is on my side. You however have to resort to namecalling and bashing….when you have nothing else to say. They say keep your enemy closer……..so I welcome any discussion with pro-aborts.

    Can’t you take it?

    And for your information ….I am not the only one on this site that brings up God….the difference is that you hate me.

    There are articles and blogs here on this very site that have to do with this topic and how it relates to religion and believers.

  • plume-assassine

    I would go one on one with you anyday anytime.

    Uhhh… as in, the one-on-one conversation we could be having if you weren’t avoid it.. right here, right now?

     

    I have answered your question many times on this forum.

    No, I still see many unanswered questions, and even worse, entirely unanswered posts in response to your blathering.

     

    I am AGAINST ANYONE TAKING THE LIFE OF ANYONE IF IT IS NOT SELF DEFENSE.

    So, you support abortion in some cases then? Like in cases of rape or a life-threatening situation for the woman?

    [ Actually, I would argue that all abortion is an act of self-defense because a seriously unwanted pregnancy can cause psychological and physical trauma. (Except I would not call a human embryo/fetus "anyone," because it is not a person.) ]

     

    Your position is morally baffling and all over the place. You hide behind words…and you run when the going gets tough. You want to pretend that you are pro-life but in the truest definition you couldnt be further from the truth. You are a pretender….pretend you have compassion, pretend you care, pretend you are moral.

     

    Hahaha! Sounds like someone is projecting!

    I have always responded to your posts, as long as they aren’t one-sentence bullshittery. I can’t say that you have ever done the same for me or any other pro-choicer on here. So, who’s running?

    By the way, where is your compassion and care for women? All I see is your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for women, stating their inferiority to men, admonishing women for “not keeping their legs closed,” calling 1/3 of American women murderers, and essentially equating us to incubators and vessels for insentient embryos. Oh, you are so moral and “pro-life.”

  • churchmouse

    The entire pro-choice movement

  • churchmouse

    Yes and Hitler shared your views on abortion and getting rid of societies slugs.

  • churchmouse

    Let me ask you this. Do you also condone abortion in the ninth month?

    Do you know what science says about life?

    You are morally blind that is what you are. You are desparately trying to convince yourself that what your doing is right…..you are helping kill innocent human beings.

    Your morals are like Peter Singers…go look him up.

  • arekushieru

    No, he didn’t.  He shared YOUR views.  He was both ProLife for German women and ProAbortion for Jewish women.  Meaning he was just as anti-choice as YOU are.

  • arekushieru

    It doesn’t MATTER what science says about life.  NO human being is allowed the right YOU anti-choicers would grant to fetuses.  No innocence, no human beings, other than the woman, (not even by your logic) and no killing involved in abortion.

    I know who Peter Singer is.  His and my morals are enTIREly different, at least from the perspective that YOU hold of him.

  • crowepps

    Well, for heaven’s sake, according to the scriptures you post here if you’re a female YOU’RE not supposed to be lecturing.  You’re supposed to be sitting around thinking about how to make your husband’s life more perfect.  I am shocked, absolutely SHOCKED that you would abandon the modesty and submission required of a good Christian woman to voluntarily spend time on the INTERNET, which everyone knows is a sink of iniquity that will corrupt even virtuous female minds.

  • arekushieru

    What do you call someone who brings life into the world without (the) permission (of the fetus)?  Every woman who has ever given birth, but, most especially, the entire ‘ProLife’ movement.

  • arekushieru

    No, it’s not.  It’s only being brought up continuously as a distraction from the real issue which is: control of women’s reproductive rights.

    Again, I don’t care if life starts at conception.

    Does abortion, itself, cause depression, as in, does the detachment of the fetal portion of the placenta from the uterus before birth, cause depression? There is no definitive link.  Do pregnancy, labour and childbirth, themselves, cause depression?  Yes.  

    I’ll tell you what a woman can be depressed about: stigmatization, pre-existing circumstances, shame, and being put in an untenable situation (which means unwanted pregnancy, which means a woman would be depressed whether she chose to terminate OR continue a pregnancy).  

    Btw, whether or not a woman suffers depression after having an abortion, is entirely different from whether a woman’s mental health is affected (and the same goes for CTT, labour and delivery).

    There is no such thing as a Pro-Abort, at least not in the way you, inherently, have to mean it.

     

  • arekushieru

    If you can’t even express the opinions of other people correctly, then how can you even argue against them (correctly), let ALONE welcome truth?  

    The only enemy you have (and the one you don’t recognize as an enemy) is Satan.  We are NOT ‘Pro-Aborts’. 

  • arekushieru

    I am AGAINST ANYONE TAKING THE LIFE OF ANYONE IF IT IS NOT SELF DEFENSE.

    Does that mean you are against anyone who takes the life of an organ recipient if it’s not in self-defense?

    Now listen………that means do I think the man who killed Tiller was wrong and should pay for his crime yes. Am I happy his work came to an end. YES

    Now that probably blows your socks off right? I am also against the death penalty…so go fix yourself a stiff drink and celebrate

    Actually, it doesn’t.  At least, not in my case.  My point still stands, after all: the majority of the anti-choice movement do not stand against the death penalty, in fact, most of them endorse it.  Although, I am happy to hear of the distinction you made between Dr. Tiller’s murder and the end of his work.

    You want to pretend that you are pro-life but in the truest definition you couldnt be further from the truth.

    The only way the ProLife movement could endorse ProLife, rather than anti-choice, policies is if they gave everyone the same right to life that they would grant feoti.

    You are a pretender….pretend you have compassion, pretend you care, pretend you are moral.

    Yes, you do pretend to have compassion for, pretend to care and pretend to believe that you uphold moral opinions about women, don’t you?


     

     


  • prochoiceferret

    You are morally blind that is what you are. You are desparately trying to convince yourself that what your doing is right…..you are helping kill innocent human beings.

     

    Like the doctor that killed the Innocent Human Being(tm) that was causing the ectopic pregnancy that nearly ended your daughter’s life?

     

    Your morals are like Peter Singers…go look him up.

     

    I’m sure Mr. Singer is onboard with the whole “saving the life of your born and very human daughter-person” thing. You, on the other hand, I’m not so certain….

  • catseye71352

    SAFE, LEGAL abortion does not cause infertility. Back-alley butcher jobs……..different story.

  • ack

    I am AGAINST ANYONE TAKING THE LIFE OF ANYONE IF IT IS NOT SELF DEFENSE.

     

    But… women trying to defend themselves against bodily harm inflicted by fetuses don’t count?

     

    I am so glad to (read) that you denouce Scott Roeder. But your position is “morally baffling.” I have yet to see compassion, caring, or morality in your views.

     

     

     

     

     

  • datasnake

    …Churchie, by the power vested in me by my Y chromosome I decree that men and women are equal. Since your beliefs forbid you from arguing with a man, you’ll just have to accept it.

  • mechashiva

    Right, I was going to say something along the lines of, “Abortion doesn’t cause infertility, untreated PID (from unsafe, unregulated abortion) causes infertility,” but that would go over Churchmouse’s head or she’d deliberately misinterpret the meaning.

  • ack

    Posting here could also be construed as trying to TEACH you something. But our little lady brains shouldn’t do that! The interwebs are contrary to nearly everything a Good Christian Woman ™ should be doing.

  • churchmouse

    God does see men and woman as equals. And you are to love me like you love yourself…like Christ loved the Church. We are to become ONE.

    How much do you love me babe? LOL

    I will change my name to Mrs.DataSnake

     

     

  • freetobe

    Glad your back :) 

    Isn’t that the Old Testament? i believe before Jesus was sent?

    If so the old testament was very violent and if you notice when reading the Bible the only parts that are not violent or sexist are when God or Jesus actually speaks. This is its only saving grace.

    Your right though so many people believe this stuff and go by it. if you think about it sadly not much has changed or the more things change the more they stay the same :(

  • ack

    Can you point me to some good reading about the difference between Lucifer and Satan? I think religious analysis, including the description of the borrowing/stealing of other mythologies, is incredibly interesting, and I’m feeling a little Google-lazy. Obs not your job to educate me, so no worries if you can’t or don’t want to!

  • crowepps
  • arekushieru

    I googled some for ya, ack!

    And, boy, were there a LOT!

    So, without further adieu, here ya go:

    http://www.realdevil.info/5-5.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/article/1091

    http://newprotestants.com/LUCIFER.htm

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101202040535AAbkeS7

    http://www.steliart.com/angelology_fallen_archangel.html

    That should whet your appetite, lol!

    I think Nebuchadnezzar was only referred to as the Morning Star, because of the mythology of his time that would have referred to Helel as such.

    But this borrowing/stealing of other mythologies, such as the marriage customs we have, today, makes it very suspect that most fundamentalist Christians would deem sex outside modern marriages as immoral, doesn’t it? 

  • goatini

    posts like this become even MORE insulting to females.  

    STFU Mr Rat.  

  • goatini

    for the sole purpose of harassing those who support US female citizens’ Constitutional rights of life, liberty, property and privacy, Mr Cult Rat sure does go on and on and on with his projections of his lies and deception onto others.  

  • goatini

    right now, and it is very clear in both the telling of the enshrinement of the fecund females of the Master Race and their pregnancies, and the demonization of the females of the “others” and their pregnancies.  

    At the very first general meeting of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party in 1921, party members passed a unanimous resolution that “a woman can never be accepted into the leadership of the party and into the governing committee.”

    Hitler promised to “do away with the idea that what he does with his own body is each individual’s own business”.  German women were an essential part of his war machine’s production line.

    He declared,  ”If in the past the liberal-intellectual women’s movements contained in their programs many, many points arising out of the so-called ‘mind’, then the program of our National Socialist women’s movement really only contains one single point and that point is: the child.”

    His ideal woman was, in his own words, “a cute, cuddly, naive little thing – tender, sweet and stupid.”

    He envisioned a post-war world where, by law, every woman who was single or married, under the age of 34, who had not already borne at least 4 children, would be required to mate with a purebred German male, called a “conception assistant”.  If this male were already married, he would be set free for this purpose.  

    In 1938, childlessness was restored into law as grounds for divorce, and abortion and contraceptives were also banned.

    Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose – and I think it’s pretty obvious just WHO our latter-day forced birthers are emulating.  

  • ack

    I’m looking forward to exploring these.

  • freetobe

    missing what I said.  I guess you just see words but do not understand their meaning. You seem to be having difficulty understanding true christianity.

    Did I say that I hate you? No i don’t hate anybody but the devil. I also bring up religion in fact I have been studying the bible recently because i do not understand all of it and I doubt I ever will. Not many do except a few theoligist scholars and they admit as well not all of it.

    I want to know why there is so much hatred for women something I have been baffled with since birth.

    Who said we were your enemies here? We disagree that is it.  That is why there seems no point to argueing over the same tired thing again and again.

    Can you accept that you cannot change everyone?  Sometimes it is just better to give it to God and let Him handle it for you. After all Jesus does not want us to force anything on anyone. That is not how it works. i am sure you must know about Jesus?

  • goatini

    Mister Rat, that’s called a MONOLOGUE.

  • mechashiva

    If your god sees men and women as equals, how do you explain the whole female subservience thing? It isn’t that women aren’t equal to men, it’s just that they should act like it because Sidekick is their natural role?

     

    You go ahead and be Robin to Batman… I think I’ll be Wonder Woman.