Catholic Hospitals’ Practices Fall ‘Below the Radar’


This is cross-posted from the National Women’s Law Center’s blog Womenstake

If you have any social life whatsoever, eventually you will find yourself talking about what you do for a living.  My day job is making sure that women’s access to reproductive health care isn’t compromised by the religious beliefs of their hospitals and health care providers. If you don’t think this is great cocktail party fodder, you have different friends than I do.

There is compelling evidence that Catholic hospitals sometimes delay or deny treatment to women with certain pregnancy complications. Why? Because doctors can still detect a heartbeat, but we are talking about cases where there is no medical treatment that would allow these pregnancies to continue.  These women are experiencing what is called in the medical literature an “inevitable abortion.”  Ectopic pregnancies (those that grow in a fallopian tube) are also never viable.  The standard of care requires medical intervention to end these pregnancies because the patients are at risk for hemorrhaging, infection, or in the case of ectopic pregnancies, a tubal rupture that could be fatal. Regardless of where someone stands on the abortion issue, every person I’ve ever discussed this with has been absolutely appalled that this happens. 

We are greatly encouraged that this issue has caught the attention of the Washington Post and the New York Times’ Nicholas Kristof. To put an end to these practices, NWLC is asking the Department of Health and Human Services to find that these practices violate federal laws that protect patients’ right to receive the standard of care, emergency care, and adequate information on their treatment options. 

We urge you to share your story if you’ve been denied appropriate treatment of your pregnancy complications, to take the pledge to get informed, and to let others know about this issue.  We hope that these dangerous practices won’t be Below the Radar for much longer.

Like this story? Your $10 tax-deductible contribution helps support our research, reporting, and analysis.

  • heathen57

    For years, Catholic affiliated hospitals have been a hindrence to women’s health.  Now with the new pope along with the much more aggressive tactics of the Bishops, it will only get worse.  This story happened in 2001 and shows just how it has gone from bad to worse.

     

    My wife, who was in her early 40’s at the time was experiencing abdominal pain and bleeding several times a month.  She went to an OB/GYN that was approved by the insurance, and tests found Uterine Fibroid Tumors, specifically one of them that was about the size of a baseball.  Since we already knew that she couldn’t have any more children (she had a less than 10% chance to carry a fetus past the second trimester) she agreed with the doctor to do the complete hystroectmy.  That is when the trouble started.

     

    The Dr. and our insurance both dictated we use the local Catholic hospital.  Before she could undergo the proceedure, the hospital insisted that we get a second opinion (at our expense) and then it would have to be approved by their own board of doctors.

    Needless to say, this whole thing took about three months.  By this time she had constant uterine bleeding and she looked about 6 months pregnant.  We lived in constant fear of her uterus tearing from the strain, and that would have been certain death for her.

    The final insult came when a nurse to us and said that as her husband, I had to give my permission for her to have the proceedure.  As if she was some form of property to me and not able to make her own decisions! I doubt I have ever been more outraged.

    By the time they were done, the tumor was the size of a soccer ball and had stretched her uterus to its breaking point (the reason she shouldn’t have gotten pregnant, her uterus was scarred enough to split open).

     

    In the past 10 years or so, it has become progressively worse.  The true feelings of the RCC showed in Bishop Olmsted’s mouthpiece who claimed that (and I’m paraphrasing here) ‘There are times when it is best to let the woman die’.

  • ldan

    That is completely criminal. I am so sorry that you and your wife had to go through that.

     

    If anything ever illustrated how the Church feels about women, this is it. Even moreso than the flap over necessary abortions. Needing to jump through hoops just to remove diseased organs simply because they’re the organs required for the church’s approved role for women of livestock is so illuminating.

  • crowepps

    There is a great article about the debacle at St. Joseph’s at the National Catholic Reporter:

     

    http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/st-joseph%E2%80%99s-hospital-phoenix-desert

  • plume-assassine

    That is incredibly disgusting– they put her life in danger! I am so sorry that you and your wife had to experience that… it’s unreal. Thank goodness she survived such a terrifying ordeal. 

    They are criminals and I wish there was some way for you to seek justice through the legal system, possibly for medical malpractice or an unnecessary delay of medical care.

    Thank you for sharing your story here.

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

    RH Reality Check staff

  • plume-assassine

    I am sick and tired of bigoted Christians like yourself who want to impose THEIR AGENDA on people, especially women, who do not share those “values.”

     

    Women in need of immediate reproductive medical care should NOT have to “go somewhere else” simply because Catholic hospitals discriminate against them. If this was a case of a hospital refusing to treat a patient based on their race, nobody would tell them to “go somewhere else”! Not to mention that sometimes you CAN’T go somewhere else… because a Catholic hospital may be the closest medical facility for many miles. They should be held to the same standards of care as any other hospital and stop treating women like breeding cattle.

  • ldan

    Except that Catholic hospitals have been documented as not treating those non-elective abortions in a timely fashion, thus risking women’s lives, all because of this misogynist dogma. Even in the case of ectopic pregnancy, since they feel that an abortion is only ok if it’s a ‘side effect’ of treatment, they have to remove the fallopian tube that the pregnancy has settled in rather than using drugs to end and detach it, thus impacting the woman’s fertility and exposing her needlessly to the dangers of surgery. So they’re medically dangerous to get treatment from even for non-elective abortions.

     

    As for the story in comments, that I assume you are referring to, what part of ‘dictated by our doctor and insurance’ didn’t make sense to you? They didn’t have a choice unless they could a. afford to pay for treatment themselves, or b. had enough time, money, and energy to challenge the insurance company.

     

    In an emergency, even a Catholic hospital is required by law to treat women as necessary to save their lives. Not that you can count on them following the law if saving your life means performing one of those non-elective abortions as the recent events at St. Joseph’s make clear. They followed the law and were disciplined for it.

  • churchmouse

    I never brought up religion..certainly not my own. I simply made a comment that a religious organization in this case a Catholic one should not be forced to do abortions.

    You want to force them like you say we pro-lifers want to stop woman from aborting.

    I got news for ya……..there are two sides to this, two worldviews.

    They should not be forced to kill period. If a womans life were in danger they I am sure would try to save both mother and child. But to do an outright abortion…..no way, and you have no right to stop them.

     

  • julie-watkins

    which his mouthpiece so blatently articulated:

    In the past 10 years or so, it has become progressively worse.  The true feelings of the RCC showed in Bishop Olmsted’s mouthpiece who claimed that (and I’m paraphrasing here) ‘There are times when it is best to let the woman die’.

    –Olmsted agrees with the above because he wanted the hospital’s written promise that it wouldn’t happen again –

    All the Shepherd’s flock are livestock to the shepherd’s above them. A Women whose bodies can’t handle pregnancy, better for the flock that they die.

  • plume-assassine

    Would you like me to copy & paste every single time that you’ve brought up your religion on this site? Hmmm?

     

    By the way, if a religious organization serves the ENTIRE PUBLIC community, and not just the religious section (in this case a Catholic Hospital), then they should be held to the same medical standards as EVERY OTHER HOSPITAL. That means that if a woman’s life is in danger from ectopic pregnancy, uterine fibroids (as mentioned by another poster), or other life-threatening pregnancy, then that means that they must perform an abortion (or hysterectomy) to save the woman’s life. It’s not about killing, it’s about saving a life.

     

    I have no right to say that Catholic hospitals should perform life-saving abortion on women? You will find that the majority disagrees with you and knows that if a hospital is in the business of saving lives, then in a life-threatening situation, it must value the life of the woman over an embryo (or the potential childbearing capabilities of an empty uterus). The law will also agree. But since you are pro-death, as we’ve seen from your posts, you would prefer that women suffer and die.

  • ack

    double post

  • ack

    Pregnant women in emergency situations are taken to the closest hospital, rather than one of their choice.

     

    The AZ legislature constantly makes headlines with their willingness to throw THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OFF SUBSIDIZED HEALTH CARE;  I hope you also realize how those decisions affect womens’ (and girls’) ability to carry a wanted pregnancy to term. Placing barriers for women attempting to obtain abortion is detrimental. Eliminating social services does not decrease abortion. It increases it.

     

    So I thoughtfully suggest that you consider your own voting record. I also suggest you research whether your district representatives support the programs that decrease abortion rates: comprehensive sex ed, access to health care (specifically access to reproductive health care), education, TANF, food programs, etc…

     

    If they don’t support the programs that help women complete wanted pregnancies, talk to them about it. There is a complicated fabric of social services that helps women who want to be pregnant. Most of the AZ legislature is committed to shredding it.

     

    Women and girls will still choose abortion. And I’m fine with that. But if you want to have a serious effect on the abortion rate:

    - Make comprehensive, medically accurate sexual education a priority

    - Make women’s health care a priority

    - Make contraceptive products affordable and readily available

    - Preserve programs like cash assistance, child care subsidies, and job training

    - Increase access to education

  • churchmouse

    Based on race, where does it say that?

    Performing an abortion on demand is different and you cant expect a hospital that stands on life to perform them. They are in the business of saving lives not taking them. 

     

  • churchmouse

    Yes they are obbligated to save lives…that does not mean perform abortions.

    Less than 1% of ALL ABORTIONS…deal in life issues for the mother and that includes ectopic pregnancy. Ectopic situation is dangerous to the mother, she could die. This very thing happened to my daughter. They took care of her in a timely manner and we were in Gilbert Mercy hospital in Phoenix. We had no problem whatsoever…they rushed her in and did what they had to do for her.

    The pro-abort side just wants to make it so that they are FORCED to perform any abortion…and that is not right. Most the time if there is even a health issue that involves both mother and child…they can save both.

  • ldan

    Nobody is asking Catholic hospitals to perform abortions on demand. We are asking that they get over their squeamishness about performing life-saving abortions and drop their medieval view of women’s wombs as belonging to someone other than the woman (see above, the hospital asking for a husband’s permission to perform a necessary hysterectomy that they had already delayed for no apparent reason).

     

    No woman should have to be afraid that her life will be at risk should she get into an accident where the nearest hospital is a Catholic one. At the moment, this is the reality.

  • churchmouse

    That is not true. I live between three huge hospital….I have my choice to which one I want to go to. One I never pick because all the illegals go to it and there is a long wait time. I had a diverticulitis episode last November and had to be taken. They asked me where I wanted to go because some doctors do not work out of certain hospitals. They took me to the one I told them.

    Mine was not life threatening however. I would think only in a case where the woman could not talk…would they take her to the closest one.

     

    As for throwing people off health care……..as I said no hospital will refuse treatment to anyone EVEN ILLEGALS. And you should see our hospital ER rooms for yourself. Standing in line behind people who do not pay a dime.

    Our Constitution did not mention anything about free health care, lodging and food. That should come out of the kindness of people who want to help and give to those in need. No one should be forced to provide health care especially abortion for someone else. We live in a country with a lot of generous people in fact we give more than any other country in the world.

    http://www.nowpublic.com/world/americans-are-most-generous-people-planet

     

    I have worked for the last ten years in the pro-life area with many of our Crisis Pregnancy Centers..also with Right to Life of Arizona and the group Silent No More. You need not tell me what to do to find out what is happening in my state concerning reproductive issues.

     

    You said this…. 

    “Women and girls will still choose abortion. And I’m fine with that. But if you want to have a serious effect on the abortion rate:

    - Make comprehensive, medically accurate sexual education a priority

    - Make women’s health care a priority

    - Make contraceptive products affordable and readily available

    - Preserve programs like cash assistance, child care subsidies, and job training

    - Increase access to education’

    I’ll tell you what would have a serious effect on the abortion rate…making abortion illegal. How many babies would then be alive today? How many generations of people would we save. There would be a tremendous boost in the Black population alone.  

    Lets talk about sex education only if you add fetal develpment to the list.

    If we are talking about the baby business and responsible reproductive health then starting when children are young they should know that abortion is killing…(used in that term) and they need to know not only everything that goes on outside their bodies to what goes on inside as well. That goes for the fetus.

    Children should know what SCIENCE has to say about life. They need to know that although abortion is legal, that they do have a choice to kill…there are other choices as well. And we should not ever forget including information on sexual abstinence. Also they need to know that there are two divergent points of view on abortion and why.

    Most schools do not even allow Right to Life groups into the classroom. And as I have said…Right to Life groups do not need bring religion into this and can rely strickly on what science has to say about when life starts and what happens after sperm meets egg. The NEA believes that groups such as these are an attack on public education. They think sexual abstinence is a bad thing not a good thing even for our children.

    If our public schools spent more time teaching our children about science, math, english…our children would be able to think more logically when making life decisions. Public education is a failure and our global rankings among industrialized nations show this.

    I would no more send my child to a public school think tank…than fly to the moon. Flying to the moon would be more productive.

    Public schools……destruction not instruction.

     

  • saltyc

    No no no.

    I don’t know who you call pro-abort, but we pro-choicers want doctors to determine if an abortion is necessary, not force anyone to perform any abortion. Elective abortions aren’t even done in hospitals. What you want is not for doctors to decide but for church patriarchs to decide, who, as evidence has served, don’t often have the wisdom to make such decisions. You are very lucky that a Catholic hospital saved your daughter’s life. You should count your blessings that you didn’t go to certain other Catholic Hospitals who have delayed treatment for women with ectopic pregnancies some of whom ended up dying, as in Central America, because the fetus or embryo still had a heartbeat.

     

    PS did they kill your unborn grandchild at Gilbert Mercy, or allow his heartbeat to stop by itself? When you say “They took care of her” (your daughter) why do you leave out your unborn grandchild, did they take care of him or her too? Are you forgetting that a pregnancy involves two people? Or did they just rip his perfect body from its only source of life? Just showing you the flavor of your own rhetoric.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Heathen57 thanks for sharing your story. I can’t imaging going through that hell.

    The final insult came when a nurse to us and said that as her husband, I had to give my permission for her to have the proceedure.  As if she was some form of property to me and not able to make her own decisions! I doubt I have ever been more outraged.

    And this is beyond outrageous. What century do they think we are in?

  • ninevehuk

    No woman should have to be afraid that her life will be at risk should she get into an accident where the nearest hospital is a Catholic one. At the moment, this is the reality.

    As a woman living outside the USA, I must admit that these sorts of incidents are why I would never, ever visit the country whilst pregnant, and whilst I would never go to a Catholic hospital there at all (fortunately travel insurance does not restrict choice of hostpital). At home, I know that if I am pregnant and go to the hosptial, every effort will be made to preserve my life, the foetus, and my fertility. I simply can’t feel that confidence about Catholic hospitals in the US, where in too many (i.e. any) cases it seems that the woman’s life is considered a poor second.

  • crowepps

    Less than 1% of ALL ABORTIONS…deal in life issues for the mother and that includes ectopic pregnancy.

    You know, people quote this a LOT, even though it’s inaccurate, but they don’t seem to grasp the fact that 1% of all the pregnant women in the country is a lot of women.

    “Exceptions, while statistically small, may be numerically staggering.”

    In 2008, there were an estimated 6.4 MILLION pregnancies in the United States.  1% of that is only 64,000 pregnancies.  Ectopic pregnancy ALONE occurs in approximately TWICE that many pregnancies.

     

    1.7 MILLION women suffer pregnancy complications.

     

    34,000 women suffer “near misses” during labor and delivery.

     

    Unless your daughter’s ectopic pregnancy was ended by the removal of her tube along with the “innocent fetus”, somebody there broke the rules.  I’m really not surprised by that since the sisters tend to be a LOT more practical and compassionate than the bishops.  The bishops are trying to STOP the hospitals from rushing in and doing what they have to.  The bishops think your daughter should have given her pain up, prayed for a miracle and then died if one wasn’t forthcoming.

     

    You might be wise to stop worrying about what these mythical “pro-aborts” want and pay some attention to what the Church wants — it wants martryrs.

  • wolfwytch

    I moved here a couple years ago, and was shocked by the number of loud, anti-choice/anti-women Catholics and LDS down here! They actually come to my front door, trying to save me from my heathen self.

     

    Please don’t think everyone down here is like that.

     

    There are those of us, in Arizona, who are appalled by the womne-hatred that is being shoved down our throats. Contrary to what others might believe– there are not that many non-catholic hospitals around here. (And Tucson is a fairly blue, very pro-women city). This means that if I need emergency help, I can go to one of the local, close hospitals, (there are something like 6 including the university) or keep driving farther and farther in hopes of finding one who won’t treat me badly becuase of my ovaries… I thank the Creatrix every day for Planned Parenthood. :)

  • squirrely-girl

     

    … I would straight up hunt down the individuals responsible and punch them in the face… probably more than once.

     

    Anti-choicers want to know why we get so worked up? Because they seem to think they have the right to dictate to OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN what they believe morally. 

  • crowepps

    They KNOW what century we are in.  We are in the “contraceptive mentality” century where women are uppity and don’t do what they’re told and don’t keep silent but instead complain loudly to everyone about what ‘father’ has been up to with their sons.

     

    What they want is to return back to the way things were in PREVIOUS centuries, when women could not control their own property, make their own decisions, leave their marriages or learn to read and nobody cared if some of them died and had to be replaced.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Would you like me to copy & paste every single time that you’ve brought up your religion on this site? Hmmm?

     If you need help with that let me know.

     


  • arium

    that allows tags to persist between comments.

    It was also preventing me from expanding low-rated comments. We wouldn’t want the trolls to scream censorship, now would we?

  • cc

    “Right to Life groups do not need bring religion into this and can rely strickly on what science has to say about when life starts and what happens after sperm meets egg.”

    Science doesn’t say anything about when the blastocyst becomes a person which is a theological determination and not agreed upon by all religious groups – although the anti-choicers say that any religion that accepts abortion blasphemes against Jesus who, according to the “lifers,’ is the one true god. And if the lifers get their way, in-vitro labs will be shut down because they “kill” “babies” notwithstanding the fact that childless couples can get conceive through in vitro. Better that women be forced to incubate for childless couples – hello “Handmaidens Tale.”

    “I’ll tell you what would have a serious effect on the abortion rate…making abortion illegal. How many babies would then be alive today?”

    And how many women would be dead? Oh, right, they’re just evil sluts so good enough for them. Here’s the thing, “Churchmouse” (and what church, pray tell, is that?). My mother came of age in the 1930’s. She said that women who had money had “D&C”s” (i.e.abortions) while those less fortunate died in back alley abortions. Oh, praise the Lord.

     “Standing in line behind people who do not pay a dime”

    Oh isn’t that just so “pro-life.” Yeah, people who work for crap wages and don’t get health care because their employers don’t have them on the books because – oh, no – that cuts into the profit margin. Praise the Lord.

    “Our Constitution did not mention anything about free health care, lodging and food. That should come out of the kindness of people who want to help and give to those in need”

    Our Constitution didn’t mention social security so I guess you’re OK with seniors begging on the street. Our Consitution didn’t mention “welfare” so I guess you’re OK with new moms (those that didn’t abort) begging on the streets because the “kindness of people” doesn’t equate with what the government can provide for young mothers and children – who will look so cute begging on the street, praise the Lord.

     “They think sexual abstinence is a bad thing not a good thing even for our children”

    Catholic schools preach abstinence only (under penalty of mortal sin) and yet Catholic school students have sex and get pregnant. The hightest teen pregnancy rates are in the bible belt where abstinence only is taught. 

    “I have worked for the last ten years in the pro-life area with many of our Crisis Pregnancy Centers”

    And CPC’s don’t have an agenda. OH Puleeze!!!

  • cc

    If the hospitals, governed by the oldest all male club in existence, don’t care about women, their funding needs to be cut. If they want to govern their hospitals according to Vatican rules, let them move to countries that give the Roman church carte blanche. (number are dwindling). There is no difference between the illegal back alley abortions pre-Roe and the policies of Catholic hospitals. Women die. But that’s not something the Roman church cares about.  And while the forced childbirth crowd brays about taxpayer funding for abortion (and they’re wrong) our tax dollars go to a Roman church which hates women and would let them die!

  • freetobe

    to see all those Catholic men who get testiclular cancer just become martyrs and die instead of getting treatment. They never would allow that. The men are to precious and sacred according to Mr Pope to ever allow to just die.

    I wonder if they allow viagra treatments to the men? Well that is not natural either.

    The catholic religion is worshipping satan plain and simple and yes I can say that I used to be catholic until I left at 18.

  • ack

    No one should be forced to provide health care

     

    Like pregnant women being forced to provide health care for fetuses?

    I’ll tell you what would have a serious effect on the abortion rate…making abortion illegal.

     

    Guttamcher’s research would disagree.

    Most schools do not even allow Right to Life groups into the classroom.

     

    Most schools in Arizona don’t allow comprehensive, medically accurate sex ed.

     

    I would no more send my child to a public school think tank…than fly to the moon. Flying to the moon would be more productive.

    Public schools……destruction not instruction.

     

    At last! We agree! The state of public schools in Arizona is absolutely deplorable. But that’s not an inherent feature of public schools. It’s a direct result of continued budget cuts.

  • ack

    And if you’re that concerned about “illegals,” you may want to consider never eating at a restaurant, staying at a hotel, eating any food produced in the southwest, or attending a major event in the Phoenix area. Not only are all of those enterprises directly supported by the labor of undocumented immigrants, a LOT of those people are trafficked.

  • ack

    church, if you EVER suspect that you’re seeing a trafficking case, like:

    - if you’re getting a manicure or pedicure and you notice cots in the back of the salon, or notice that every time you go, different people are working

     – if you attend the Phoenix Open, one of the football games, or another event and you notice a questionable relationship between an adult and a teen or child (they literally truck prostituted people in for those kinds of events)

    - if someone comes to your door selling magazines or candy and you notice that they look malnurished, thirsty, dirty, or tired (you can offer them water if you’re comfortable, but be careful; the traffickers are very likely watching for too much involvement and may take it out on the victims)

     

    CALL THE TRAFFICKING HOTLINE:

    1-888-60-ALERT

     

    AZ is lucky to have a group of dedicated individuals and agencies focused on labor and sex trafficking. Spread the number. Look for the signs. Human trafficking is easy to hide, but easy to notice when you know the signs. You don’t have to be sure to call the number.

  • churchmouse

    This is the reason that public schools are so bad…people like you.

    You want to hide the truth from children. If children are young enough to know about birth control methods…THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW ABOUT ABORTION AND WHAT IT DOES. Abortion is the most performed surgery in the United States…and you want them to think its like getting their teeth cleaned. Of course I would suppose that you lie to your children from the sound of your post.

    This is not dictating the truth. Don’t you tell your children the truth, or do you lie. How would you answer you child if they asked you what abortion did? Would you be honest with them or would you lie? Then also lie if they asked you if you condoned killing? To you guys its all about the shhhhhhh……the lie.

    This has nothing to do with morals…but the truth about what abortion is…and I guess you cant handle the truth and would choose a lie.

     

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

    RH Reality Check staff

  • churchmouse

    We have pumped more into our schools than any other country in the world. No amount of money will fix them until we start to value education. We value sports and sex…….education takes a back seat. I read somewhere…that Asians students study 5 hours a night as compared to our students who study on the average of 5 hours a week….and it shows in our ranking scholastically with other industrialized nations. We are pathetic. It has nothing to do with money…and all to do with who is in control and who does not want reform.

    Competition is what our schools need. I believe we have more charter schools in ARizona than any other state in the country. Our state ranks low because of the illegals who are mainstreamed into the classroom.

     

     

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

    RH Reality Check staff

  • churchmouse

    WE live in a country that allows freedom of speech and expression.

    If you do not want to go to a Catholic hospital find another one.

    If people want to fund a place that denies abortion,…..GUESS WHAT? It is their right. If some woman wants to end her life because she is pregnant…then it is her choice. I do not condone it….but this issue is all about choice, right?

    The choice to get pregnant….the choice for adoption……..the choice to kill it…….choice.

    And Catholic hospitals have choice……..might not be what you want…but then you do not have to go there. Go to planned parenthood……where the clinics are safe…LOL……where they have the best that medicine has to offer.

    The CAtholic Church stands up against the taking of an innocent life in the womb. I am not Catholic, I do not condone many things they stand for…..but on this….they stand on the truth.

     

  • churchmouse

    Men do not carry babies….so what does this have anything to do with abortion?

  • saltyc

    But you do  condone killing, unless you are unhappy with the way your own daughter’s life was saved.

    You anti-choicers can’t see the consequences of your own rhetoric. A lot of people believe that passively allowing to die, the way I passed by a hungry homeless man who needs a liver and did nothing to save his life, is not as bad as shooting him in the head. Well if you believe, unless you’re a hypocrite because you’ve stated so, that an embryo is as much of a person as someone who was born, and you agree that actively killing is worse than doing nothing and allowing someone to die, as many Catholic patriarchs believe, then the act of killing your grandchild at Mercy hospital was wrong. Your daughter would have suffered the consequences of your own “morals.” But many many women suffer the consequences of other people’s morals every day and this is called the “pro-life” movement.

  • colleen

    IT IS ILLEGAL TO BE HERE WITHOUT DOCUMENTATION……..

    It’s also illegal  for hospitals to deny dying  women whose bodiers cannot sustain a pregnancy  a life saving abortion and you seem eager to see more of that and defend the right of Catholic hospitals to continue this practice .

    Have you ever considered how much your cultural warfare is motivated by hatred and rage and fear and not, as you like to claim, concern for ‘life’?

     

  • ack

    I live in Arizona.

  • cc

    The anti-choicers are constantly braying about no tax dollars for abortion. Well, let’s look at this from another perspective. Catholic hospitals are the recipients of federal dollars in Medicaid, Medicare, and other funding streams. If they refuse to perform a surgery that is legal and, in some instances, vital, then they should no longer receive any government money. Hospitals, that take federal dollars, should not be able to refuse to do any surgery that is considered legal. Should a hospital refuse to remove diseased gall bladders or ruptured appendixes? “Churchmouse” says that women can choose not to go to a Catholic hospital but if an emergency abortion is needed and the only health care resource, within miles, is a Catholic hospital then there is no choice. Once again, the forced birth crowd are always whining about how pro-choice is pro-death. Catholic hospitals, that refuse to do abortions, are the ones who promote a culture of death but dead women are not a problem for those who worship the fetus.

    And BTW, Churchmouse, the theologies of the mainline Protestant churches do not condemn abortion. Reformed Judaism, based on Talmudic and Rabbinical sources, is also pro–choice – a belief system that generates a good deal of anti-Semitism in the anti-choice movement which is strongly Catholic – a church with a long history of anti-Semitism. Jews are overwhelmingly pro-choice so it’s no surprise that they’re not represented in the anti-choice movement. Such is the medieval dogmaticism of the anti-choicers who, like Churchmouse, believe that any religion that is not pro-life is heretical. The definition of the beginning of life is not universal – much as the forced birth crowd wishes it to be.

    And Re abstinence only education – didn’t work for my Catholic high school peers and it still doesn’t work. The areas with the highest numbers of teen pregnancies are mainly in the bible, abstinence only belt.

    “Cesspool of sexual freedom” – great quote. It could apply to the Catholic church, if you know what I’m saying!!

  • crowepps

    If you do not want to go to a Catholic hospital find another one.

    Agree

    If people want to fund a place that denies abortion,…..GUESS WHAT? It is their right.

    Agree, as long as not one penny of MY tax dollar goes to FACILITATE a place that lets pregnant women die

  • progo35

    You know, it is FASCINATING that RH and is SO consciencious about documenting the possible threats posed to women via Catholic hospital abortion practices, but it didn’t seem to notice that a PA “doctor” was butchering women and born infants for a living in his abortion practices.  

  • rebellious-grrl

    I’ll tell you what would have a serious effect on the abortion rate…making abortion illegal.

    Making abortion illegal will NOT stop abortion. It will only go underground. Like in the days before Roe v. Wade, wealthy women could access abortion, poor women couldn’t. I’m astonished that the antis think things like “feminists created abortion” or abortion is a recent invention. When in reality it has existed for thousands of years. An example of an abortive herb was Silphium, used in ancient times. The herb was used to the point of extinction. 

    “In ancient times, Cyrenne, a colony in northern Africa, exported large amounts the silphium plant to Greece, Rome, India, and Egypt. It was prized as a contraceptive and abortive herb! Silphium’s heart-shaped seed was pictured on the coins of Cyrenne. It was said to be a “gift from Apollo and worth its weight in silver!” Cyrenne became rich from it’s cultivation. Within 600 years, it was over-harvested and driven to extinction.” http://4000yearsforchoice.com/4000/week-4-love-silphium/

    Most schools do not even allow Right to Life groups into the classroom.

    Good they shouldn’t.

    Public education is a failure and our global rankings among industrialized nations show this.

    Gee, maybe if public schools were actually funded to the levels they need that would be a start at improving schools. Maybe if we paid teachers even a sliver of what professional athletes were paid that would help. I cringe every time another professional sports stadium is built using tax payers money. We always seam to have money for stadiums but no money for schools.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Just when I think there is no way you could offend me anymore than you already have, you come out with a whooper like this post.

    People are not illegal. I really have a hard time dealing with the racism in the immigration debate. I think we are all “illegal” in the U.S. unless you are Native American. The U.S. government took the land by force from the indigenous peoples THAT WERE HERE FIRST.

    Calling people “illegals” is racist.

    From drop the I-word:

    You wouldn’t call someone a w*tback, or the n-word. Saying “illegals” is just as bad. The I-Word creates an environment of hate by exploiting racial fear and economic anxiety, creating an easy scapegoat for complex issues, and OK-ing violence against those labeled with the word.

    http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/

     

  • carolyninthecity

    you know what else is FASCINATING? That anti-choicers didn’t seem to have that “clinic” on their radar either. Where were they? Oh perhaps they were too busy targeting and harassing Planned Parenthood.  

  • colleen

    If only Sarah Palin and Lila Rose had brought it to our attention, churchmouse.

  • colleen

    <duplicate>

  • freetobe

    Of the men and womens value. It is ok for women to die for a fetus that may or may not live to be born because God may chose to abort it and or the men who do not have to worry about this and are still treated as supreme beings according to the Vatican. They in fact are HALF responsible remember the testes where the sperms come from? Well then those should not be considered important as well if they get diseased, well then oops bye bye. Just as if the women ‘s uterus get diseased and cannot sustain a pregnancy any longer. What is fair is fair but not according to mr. Pope and the vatican boys.

    It is ridiculous the whole entire thing just like the vaticans rules which is murder of two not one!

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

    RH Reality Check staff

  • churchmouse

    Mainstream Christian Churches……?

    There are a few anti-christian denominations that condone abortion but very few. They do not stand on the scriptures but on what society says.

    No case can be made for abortion in the scriptures period.

     

    http://www.episcopalchurch.org/79901_112876_ENG_HTM.htm

    http://www.spiritrestoration.org/Church/Denominational-stand-on-the-issue-of-abortion.htm

     

    If you look at the Independent and evangelical churches, you would see that they all are against abortion. Look at our mega churches……. Saddlebacks Rick Warren and Lakeswoods Joel Osteen, the Second Baptist Church of Houston, Willow Creek….they all are pro-life and against abortion.

    There is declining membership in mainstream churches today. Most are flocking to evengelical and nondenominational churches. Most these interpret the bible literally and stand on the Word. They are anti abortion.

    You look at the best selling Christian authors and apologists…they are anti abortion……Billy Graham and his son Franklin, Ravi Zacharius, Randy Alcorn, Warren, Osteen, Jenkins, Lahaye, Hybels, Coleson, Dobson, Jakes, Meyer, Neuhaus, McDowell, Stanley, Strobel….I could go on and on. None of these are from mainstream denominations…all are pro-life and against abortion. These are just some of our influential Christian leaders in America. You can laugh all you want but these are the people that Christians are listening to today.

     

    What you say just is not true.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tren.htm

      

  • plume-assassine

    Here’s a challenge for you. Find a passage in the Bible where Jesus says that he is against abortion. He had a lot to say about injustices and nonviolence; you would think that if abortion was such a big deal (and it has been around for thousands of years) that he would have said something… but he didn’t. Hmmm.

     

    I don’t care what rightwing pseudo-Christians in their stadium churches led by spittle-lipped pastors have to say about abortion — they are not Jesus.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    Catholic hospitals should close their doors entirely and let others such as the ACLU, PP, NARAL and all the others who consistently criticize their policies pick up the slack, since people seem to do nothing but complain about services they could but don’t offer themselves.

    People seem to forget that the RCC offers medical services and run hospitals because it wants to, not because it has to. In many areas, a Catholic run hospital is the only one in the area. Without the services of these hospitals many more individuals both male and female would die each year than they do currently because these hospitals exist. It seems to me they care and do more for their fellow human than anyone in this thred, yet people have the audacity to claim they hate woimen or whatever. Give me a break!

  • arekushieru

    And, here, I thought we were talking about AGE-APPROPRIATE comprehensive sex-ed?  But, of course, why would I expect an anti-choicer to know the difference and think laterally?  Because there IS such a thing as AGE-APPROPRIATE education about abortion. 

    YOU would want children to think that PREGNANCY and CHILDBIRTH are no more difficult or painful than getting a hangnail pulled. 

    To us, it’s all about the truth.  After all, we KNOW abortion isn’t killing, because, if you removed the entire process from dependance on the woman’s body, abortion would, then, look exACTly like someone was removing a body from life support, something that ISn’t considered killing when the body is an infant/adolescent/adult and the life support is artificial. 

    Yes, I know, anti-choicers have always chosen the lie.  So, what’s your point?

      

  • arekushieru

    So lets make everthing illegal because something MIGHT HAPPEN. The death rate of women before abortion was low and that is a fact. But that is the only thing you pro-aborts can hand on too…the coat hanger excuse. Even PP said what you are claiming was a lie…that most all abortions took place by a doctor in a clinic.

    How MANY times have we refuted your ‘facts’ and have you failed to respond to them?  SO.  WHAT.  The fact that the doctor was in a clinic did NOT make it any less dangerous.  Derrrr….

    Yes for you it would be praise the Lord……..and what kind of religion are you claiming…God forbid. The kind that condones killing innocent lives?

    For once, PLEASE.  READ.  Abortion is NOT killing.  And a fetus is neither innocent NOR guilty.  If it were killing, you DO condone it, by your own logic.  If abortion is killing, then maternal mortality rates are deaths caused by fetus, after all.  And women are actual innocent lives.  And, f it were, your table would be innocent or guilty.  What kind of religion are you claiming that condones killing innocent lives?  It’s not the compassionate, justice-oriented, loving Christian faith that *I* know.  Sounds more like Satanism, to me.

    Science tells us exactly about the life in the womb. It is a fact that life starts at conception, again educate yourself.

    WHO.  CARES.  I know a fetus is human life at conception.  I just refuse to believe that that grants it more rights than anyone born.   Whether or not you think CC was suggesting this, it was completely tangential to her actual point, so there was no need to bring it up in the first place.

    Yes, you would open our country up to all people from all over the world…and then what? We would not have a health care system at all…because the American taxpayer could not foot the bill. Praise God.

    So, you think people should be punished just because of where they were born?  Yeah, that would fit in with your anti-choice meme.  Besides, more immigrants means more people paying into the system, and the current HCR is SAVING your country money.  Republicans want you to go into debt.

    It is about responsiblity………..it is about following the law and doing what is right. Our law says that abortion is allowed…up until certain weeks. That is law. Our law ALSO SAYS THAT BEING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN IS AGAINST THE LAW. Praise God.

    Praise God that you’ve never had to face poverty, torture, war, famine, death, illness, malnutrition but Praise Satan that you’re denying your privilege.  That’s just like something he would do, after all.

    Gee since your so giving………how much do you hand over to the poor? Just what you owe in taxes or much more?

    WHOOOSSHH!  That’s the sound of someone trying to make a point that went completely over your head.  Although, not unexpectedly.  You are the one who is not putting your money where your mouth is.  YOU are the one who is suggesting that the poor simply live off of generous handouts from the upper classes.  WE are suggesting that the wealth be distributed proportionately through a system of taxation.  So, WE are already doing what WE have suggested.

    What is happening today is this……..since the humanists have taken over and made this country a cess pool of sexual freedom…….people think that the government OWES THEM. You believe that I can tell. So if you are a mother on welfare…the more kids you have the more money you get. Many people have this philosoply and mooch off the hard working taxpayer.
    What about responsiblity, especially sexual responsiblity….no such thing today. Kids are taught that as long as sex feels good…do it with anyone, anytime.

    What is WRONG with sexual freedom?  You mean sex beyond being used for procreative means and the man’s pleasure are wrong?  I already knew that’s what you thought, but you have this annoying tendency of repeating the same thing over and over. 

    Women on welfare taking advantage of the system are RARE. 

    Sexual responsibility or sexual punishment?  You have this sadomasochistic view of sex.  The man willingly gives pain to the woman while the woman willingly receives it.  However, I would say that the majority of men and women are being sexually responsible when more than half of them were using some form of contraception before an unplanned pregnancy that ended in abortion.  They just weren’t responsible eNOUGH in your sick, twisted moral opinion.

    I give above and beyond what I owe the government BECAUSE I LIKE TO HELP PEOPLE. The government should not require that I support half of Mexico that come across our borders.

    That’s all well and good, but, not everyone feels the way you do.  I would go so far as to say that only a minority would.  So, just because people have had bad luck in their lives, that gives you every right (someone who is only in the position they are due to extremely GOOD luck) to dictate how, when and with what they should spend their lives?

    If you want to then sell everything you have and move there…I am sure they would love the help. Just dont go close to the borders, not if you want to live.

    Hypocrite.  It’s okay if some ‘dirty Mexican’s’ life is ended through violent means, but, if your ‘lily-white skin’ is even close to endangered… the HORror.

    And what is wrong with that? Where has the public school method got us? Look at the stats on teenagers and STD’s if you want the answer to that one. Sure in our culture…sex is the god. Is it any wonder that kids do what they do….sex is rammed down their throats, pun intended….since they are small children. When they make thongs for adolescent girls….something is wrong.

    That has nothing to do with comprehensive sex-ed. OBviously.  It has everything to do with a patriarchal culture that likes to sexualize women and children.  A patriarchal culture that abstinence-only sex ed allows no room for these same women and children to assert themselves in. 

    Again.  Missing the point.  Abstinence-only sex ed has been PROven to be a failure because it does NOThing to reduce the rates of pregnancy and STI’s.

    What is wrong in telling our underaged teenagers that not having sex is the right way? I can only imagine what you tell your children. I would suppose you hand them condoms as they go out the door, am I right? But then why…….THERES ALWAYS ABORTION…..still no cure for many STD’s, HIV/AIDS

    See above.  And, maybe, if you actually read, this time, you might just beGIN to comprehend.  Umm, what do you fail to understand about COMPREHENSIVE sex-ed?  Comprehensive means exactly that, after all.  Correct contraceptive usage, deobjectifation of women and children, through men’s AND women’s lenses, abstinence, etc….

    Yes Crisis Preg, Centers have an agenda…………but I tell ya what sissy,……its not about what you condone……..

    KILLING

    As I demonstrated, *we* are not the ones who condone killing.   We are the only ones who condone compassionate care of women, though.

  • arekushieru

    Without the services of these hospitals many more individuals both male and female would die each year than they do currently because these hospitals exist.

    WITH the ‘services’ of these hospitals many more females die each year than they do currently because these, and ONLY these, hospitals exist for miles around, making them the only hospitals these women can GET to.  Or, did you not read that part?  Wouldn’t surprise me.

    Besides which, I just noticed that you stated that you wished these hospitals could have their cake and eat it, too.  If they’re simply providing services because they ‘want’ to, it suggests a rather lackadaisical manner about them, and, thus, something they should not be receiving federal funding FOR.

    However, it’s rather sickening to note that you conVENiently ignore the fact that life-saving care is not provided to a patient (as compassionate Christian standards would DICTATE they DO provide) only when that patient is female.

    And you wonder why people have the ‘audacity’ to claim you, and others like you, hate women????

     

  • arekushieru

    Are you for real?  There are passages that make mention of ‘deliberate miscarriages’.  What do you think those are about, if not abortion?  If a man causes a woman to miscarry, he must pay a fine.  If a man causes a woman and a fetus to die, the man must pay with his life.  If a woman is accused of being unfaithful, and she denies it, it is laid out right in the bible how one may determine if she is lying or not.  Prescribe a concoction that will cause her to miscarry if she is lying and will do nothing if she is not.  BOTH of these are pro-abortion passages, btw (y’know, passages just as anti-choice as you?) yet NONE were spoken of by Jesus. 

    I guess you didn’t read the quotes from Maureen Shea very closely, either.  She was talking about reducing unintended pregnancies.  She was also talking about empowering women, providing effective birth control and sex education, to enable them to determine when and how many children they had as God had intended them to do. 

    I’m glad you misinterpreted them, because you would have made me hate  my favorite character in all forms of media, ever.

    The true anti-Christian denominations are those that twist the words of the most feminist male (Jesus) to have ever lived into one’s of hatred for women.

    Btw, have you ever heard of Faith Aloud? 

  • rebellious-grrl

    Arekushieru, I’ll second that. I’m so sick of this troll’s copy/paste nonsensical ramblings.

  • saltyc

     

    As someone who works at a CPC, whose mission it is to psychologically badger women into making the choice that the CPC wants, she is very comfortable using inflammatory and damning language such as killing innocents, which she insists is “the Truth.” And according to her religion, anyone who lives is by definition guilty, guilty of lust, guilty of sloth, guilty of loving ones’ self above others, guilty of envy, guilty of judgment. She is guilty, we are guilty. The Embryo or Fetus or Blastula, being preconscious, is innocent. 

    Killing innocents, according to certain Christian strains, is much, much worse than killing the guilty hence their support for capital punishment, so it follows that abortion is worse than letting the sinful woman die. 

    It is extremely fortunate for her daughter, that her doctors were looking out for her and went ahead and killed Churchmouse’s unborn grandchild, a grandchild who was innocent and defenseless, to save churcmouse’s daughter’s life. A grandchild, incidentally, which churchmouse never mentions. Well other women with churchmouse’s daughter’s condition are not as lucky as churchmouse’s daughter, for the very same reasons that churchmouse defends here: that killing innocents is never OK. She just denies the existence of her unborn grandchild and denies that it was killed to save her daughter. I have pointed this out to her twice and she hasn’t addressed it.

    Hypocrisy shines like a beacon, and she can’t even make a statement without racist immigrant-bashing thrown in for good measure.

    You know, those filthy immoral “illegals” who come from predominantly Catholic countries with pro-life laws on the books and whose women die from pregnancy complications at a far greater rate than even the US due to CATHOLIC hospitals.

    You know what’s sad is, it’s so easy to shine a light on the ignorance of pro-lifers who “debate” us here, yet their idiocy has such traction with lawmakers.

    PS I don’t really believe that churchmouse’s grandchild was killed, because it wasn’t born therefore not a grandchild and wasn’t killed because it wasn’t born, I’m just making her own rhetoric consistent to the events she described.

  • saltyc

    I am fully aware of the number of Christian haters in these churches, because when their daughters are desperately in need for an abortion, they call grass-roots abortion funds because their families let them down. There’s a reason these mega-churches with their huge flocks like to hammer the abortion theme. Because standing in judgment of others and bashing scapegoats is hugely tempting. It is quite a delicious sadistic thrill that you all get from demonizing real suffering people such as your daughters whom volunteers at abortion funds help. And most of your yellers and gore-mongers who get their jollies from harassing strangers in their darkest hour will never know how their own daughters had to turn to us for help because your “faith” let them down so monumentally. 

  • ahunt

    Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,

     

    Snerk. Churchmouse, I was just wondering if you thought that this particular “scripture” should be codified into public law?

  • reproductivefreedomfighter

    Not all catholics are anti-choice, churchmouse.  Ever heard of Catholics for Choice?  Everyone knows that YOU are against abortion, but we don’t really care. 

  • crowepps

    The thing you seem to be missing is that while it is indeed illegal to enter this (and many other) countries without the required documents and permission, that does NOT make the PEOPLE illegal.  The people still have a right to exist and the punishment for illegal immigration is to be deported, NOT to die from preventable causes or have your children who are American citizens punished for existing, or have your children stolen from you altogether.

    Carlitos, then an infant, was passed to Romero’s family members for care. But by September, a clergy couple with no legal authority were involved, suggesting that the boy be adopted by yet another couple the mother had never met. Legal custody of her son was granted to the couple in October 2007. Only a month after that did Romero even get the courtesy of a court-appointed attorney.

    Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/28/3360378/in-missouri-a-case-that-would.html#ixzz1CXpxCyaO

     

    It is also ILLEGAL TO SMOKE MARIJUANA.  Those “drug people” you reference are not here because of illegal immigration.  Those drug people are here because American potsmokers are FUNDING THEM through their ILLEGAL PURCHASES.

     

     

  • rebellious-grrl

    She wants the American Taliban to be in power.

  • arium

    God does not choose abortion…..that is not scriptural at all.

    I’ll take this opportunity to point out that assuming the god hypothesis were true, this god has aborted more zygotes/embryos/blastocysts/fetuses than all of humanity combined.

     

    But you hold God and humanity to different standards of morality, don’t you?

  • ack

    http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

     

    I will stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of Christianity who use verses out of context — the same way I just did to support abortion — to support their views against abortion. The condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and decide for themselves the meanings therein.

  • squirrely-girl

    I have pointed this out to her twice and she hasn’t addressed it.

     

    … that’s what hypocrites do. 

     

    Save your breath. She’s not interested in debate. Ever notice how she ups her use of “Praise God” the more uncomfortable and backed into a corner she gets?  

  • rebellious-grrl
  • crowepps

    Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,

    First, the ‘church’ as embodied in the apostles was always wandering off  track, persistently misunderstood most of what Christ said, and He was constantly redirecting them back and reexplaining and complaining they just didn’t GET IT.  This tradition has been carried forward by every Christian church, all of which seem to get stuck in an amazing reverse-a-teaching fun mirror and get stuck in ‘judgment of others’, ‘vain repetition of prayers’, ‘praying on street corner’, ‘getting a lawyer and suing” and the anti-humility of swanning around in fancy clothes demonstrating how much more special and important they are than other people.

     

    So if wives are to act towards their husbands as the ‘Church’ acted with Christ, they should ignore what they’re told, do whatever they want and then whine about how they thought that’s what they were supposed to do, and be jealous and unreasonable and selfish.

     

    And if husbands are to act towards their wives as Christ did the Church, then women will have to have careers so they can support the husbands while they preach, and so that the family be okay economically when at the end of three years the men sacrifice themselves and are executed.

     

    Maybe that is more reasonable than it sounds. I suppose the wife could stand PRETENDING to think the huband’s right about everything and that his slacker self is wonderful and that she’s obeying his every whim if she only has to do so for three years, and the family size would stay at a reasonable two or three children.  It would even have the immense advantage of eliminating that maddening period when senescence looms, virility and attractiveness plummet, and men start getting all weird about how young people still having youth and beauty is immoral.

  • ahunt

    IIRC, Catholic women obtain the majority of abortions by denomination.

  • crowepps

    Catholic hospitals should close their doors entirely

    If the Catholic Church decides the threat of being made to follow best practices medical protocols means they’re going to abandon the hospital business, they aren’t going to blow the place up or shoot all the employees.  Instead they’re going to sell the physical plant to somebody else and the employees will have a new employer.

     since people seem to do nothing but complain about services they could but don’t offer themselves.

    Gee, how totally unreasonable of the patients at the hospital to complain about the substandard care they receive when the ‘simple answer’ is to just open their own hospital.

    People seem to forget that the RCC offers medical services and run hospitals because it wants to, not because it has to.

    The question is, WHY does it want to?  Only 22% of the population is Catholic.  Is the reason the Church is buying up hospitals to force both its own laith and the other 78% of the population who aren’t Catholic at all to tolerate getting substandard reproductive health care?  If the motive is to prevent women from obtaining sterlizations, to prevent women from preventing pregnancy after rape, to prevent women from using birth control, to prevent women with pregnancy complications from obtaining abortions that ‘immorally’ save their lives, then frankly it would be a great benefit to the mostly NON-Catholic women of this county if the Church DIDN’T want to run hospitals.

    In many areas, a Catholic run hospital is the only one in the area.

    Which is precisely why their unwillingness to meet the standard practices of good medical care is a problem.

    Without the services of these hospitals many more individuals both male and female would die each year than they do currently because these hospitals exist.

    But the question isn’t whether or not the HOSPITAL should exist; the question is who should be RUNNING the hospital.  I vote it should be doctors and not bishops.

    It seems to me they care and do more for their fellow human than anyone in this thred, yet people have the audacity to claim they hate woimen or whatever. Give me a break!

    We’ve noted before you have an unwarranted bias towards the Catholic Church.  I don’t think they ‘hate’ women.  I think they consider women’s bodies and lives irrelevant so long as women serve the ‘higher purpose’ of producing babies to give men a ‘moral’ excuse for wallowing in lust.

     

    I’d note, by the way, that if we DID give you a break, say a leg or an arm, as a man you could go to any Catholic hospital in the country and receive medical care that would meet or exceed standard medical protocols.  If you were a woman of reproductive age, however, every aspect of your care from the exam to the x-rays to the treatment would have to measured not by what treatment would best restore YOU to health, but instead what impact it MIGHT have on a zygote that MIGHT exist.

     

    After all, when women are ill or injured in a Catholic hospital, the important thing isn’t whether those women recover or whether those women are disabled in the future, but instead ALL about the moral purity of the caregivers as measured by their doing what’s best for the “innocent” fetus.

  • equalist

    That’s something we should be taking to our senators honestly.  Legalizing pot completely in the US (as has been done in other countries) would end that particular drug trade (end of alcohol prohibition anyone?) and the deaths that go along with it.  Not to mention freeing millions of nonviolent offenders currently burning through taxpayer funds in prison because they got caught with a little weed on them.  As an added bonus, the tax revenue generated would create at least something of a dent in the budget shortfalls.

  • progo35

    It does seem curious to me that this issue does not and did not seem to be on the national (one can only speculate as to local) pro life radar before this happened. The reasons why are also speculative. Is it because these abortions were done illegally and secretly, while, in contrast, Dr. Tiller’s practice (which I’m not comparing to Gosnell’s) was a public provider of late term abortion, so people in the pro life movement were paying attention to it? Was it because there weren’t pro life people in that neighborhood who might have gotten the word out? Now, we could contemplate baser reasons…such as class issues, lack of genuine concern for the health of women, etc, but whatever the case, I am surprised that even in the wake of the story I haven’t seen a lot of news coverage of it even on more conservative networks.

    Be that as it may, that does NOT excuse RH’s myopic focus on taking down every element of society, including hospitals that provide other crucial health services, that are percieved to support the pro life cause. It also disgusts me that even after this happened, people on this website were still asserting that the state should not regulate abortion clinics as surgical facilities. The fact that the writers on this site seem FAR more concerned with the fact that Catholic hospitals aren’t being forced to provide abortions or loose funding, which it has been complaining about for some time, than with correcting the holes in a system that allowed Gosnell The Butcher to operate deeply offends me as a woman and as a person of good conscience.

  • saltyc

    I am surprised that even in the wake of the story I haven’t seen a lot of news coverage of it even on more conservative networks.

     

    OK here’s why. Because, as many so-called pro-lifers here have stated, to them Gosnell was no worse than Tiller. Gosnell was no worse than a legitimate, caring and compassionate abortion provider. Because you think abortion is the same as murder, there is no outrage for his particular case.

     

    Your second paragraph just shows your reading comprehension fail, and you ought to do better than to twist words around to suit you. But as far as correcting holes in the system which allowed Gosnell to operate, we pro-choice activists, by providing women who need abortions with funding and steering them to legitimate clinics, ARE doing something to correcting the holes in the system left by you anti’s.

  • progo35

    Well, frankly, if Tiller was providing abortion at thirty weeks gestation on fetuses that could survive outside the womb, which is what Gosnell is accused of doing, than what he was doing was morally comparable to Gosnell’s acts of illegal late term abortion, he simply peformed his job more skilfully by killing the fetus before it was born. What distinguishes Gosnell from Tiller is that Gosnell murdered seven babies after they were born by severing their spinal cords. A young woman with Down Syndrome died at Tiller’s clinic after a late term abortion, which I also question: why did she die of something as preventable as sepsis? As for my “reading comprehension” I graduated with honors with a degree in cultural studies, am working on a master’s degree, and am getting published soon, so you can shove it.

  • progo35

    I find it really hilarious, Crowepps, since you belive that pro lifers should be forced to fund abortions-so you shouldn’t have to fund things with your taxes that you think are unfair but we should have to? LOL.

  • julie-watkins

    elective abortions that were to far advanced. I remember several reports of his office helping girls find shelter until natural birth & the adoption of those babies. Tiller’s business was investigated & the grand jury declined to indict for that death.

    A grand jury did indict Gosnell for multiple instances. If Gosnell is found guilty, there will be have been evidence that didn’t exist for Tiller’s clinic.

    I’m sorry you consider yourself able to morally judge strangers if they choose not to continue a pregnancy you feel should have been continued.

  • freetobe

    because this has everything to do with abortion. if not for religion there would be no arguements as you have quoted from the Bible.

    As far as God not being an abortionist well then explain why God does not save every single fetus? or maybe could it be that it is really biology? Yes that must be it. Not every fetus makes it to birth because something went wrong that noone has any control of. Not to get off the subject or anything.

    In fact their is NOTHING in the Bible at all about for or against abortion and abortion has been around since the beggining of days. Believe me I looked very carefully.

    and another thing Jesus gave everyone a free will and a free choice to follow His ways or not. Why is it that that anti-choicers go against His teaching? I guess you like to pick and choose what you want to use against people for your own aganda’s?

  • purplemistydez

    Progo the difference is crowepps wants to fund hospitals that save women’s lives and not let them die like anti-choicers would like.

  • colleen

    Progo understands this. She and her sock puppets have been trolling this blog for years now. She’s deliberately dishonest and unfair and has no integrity whatsoever. Her purpose isn’t to communicate, it’s to derail threads, evoke anger and entertain her sorry self with the fallout. 

     

     

  • arekushieru

    She reminds me of a woman on FB.  Similar tactics, similar viewpoints, similar ways of expressing themselves, similar false initial sense of compassion followed by attack methods.  I’ve stopped talking to Progo and this other woman, the only anti-choicers I’ve ever felt the need to do so WITH.  I would be more surprised to find out they WEREn’t the same woman.

    And, misty, she has a similar lack of understanding to the woman on FB in regards to applying things laterally.  Nor, OBviously, can she comprehend irony, or whatever the term for it is, now.  

  • wendy-banks

    As do I– And I worked at St. Joes’ for five crappy years. They treat women employee’s like crap too. I worked there when I was pregnate with my daughter, and it was a high-risk pregnacy. Little did I know what kind of danger I was in every time I was admited!