Illegal Abortion Providers and Anti-Choice Irresponsibility


One thing that’s important to understand about the anti-choice movement is that it’s more extremist, more strange, and more ridiculous than most political subcultures in America.  The second thing to understand about it is that it’s sadly an indicator of where movement conservatism is headed in general.  And no more example is more indicative of both these trends than the anti-choice reaction to the arrest of Kermit Gosnell of Philadelphia and some of his staff for illegal abortions.  The responsibility-dodging and noise-generating from anti-choicers in the wake of this is epic, and a disturbing portend for the direction of dialogue in general for this country.

Taking responsibility for the price of your policy preferences is something that all mature people engaged in politics should be prepared to do.  Policy almost always involves trade-offs.  Liberals get this.  We frown when someone says something bigoted, paranoid, or incendiary, but most of us will say that this is the price you pay for free speech, which is more important.  We get that more regulation requires more government spending and irritation from those being regulated, but believe that’s the price to pay for having safe food, water, medical care, and fair standards in labor.  When it comes to health care reform, the price of lowering costs, lowering the deficit, and getting health care to all Americans is endless whining from right wingers.

It’s not like conservatives are completely unwilling to accept that their preferred policies come at a cost.  Recently, I published a piece in the Guardian’s Comment Is Free about gun control in the wake of the Tucson massacre.  Some of the anti-gun control people were playing the role of fantasists, but more than a few were willing to accept the evidence I brought to the table in comments about the results of a relatively unregulated gun trade: 20 mass murders a year on average, 82 deaths from guns a day, small children blowing their heads off with Uzis. Some of the commenters said this is a price they are willing to pay in order to have unfettered access to guns.  At first, I was horrified at the lack of empathy for those who have lost loved ones to gun violence, but in retrospect, I have to give them credit for at least looking at the price of their preferred policies honestly and dealing with it.  Now we have something substantial to debate about, which is whether or not the cost is too high or not.

Contrast this with the anti-choice reaction to the news that an abortionist who performed illegal abortions named Kermit Gosnell was charged with 8 counts of murder for the death of a patient and allegedly killing 7 born babies.  The initial anti-choice reaction was elation. This would make great agitprop for their cause!  Surely the actions of a sleazy man who preyed on poor women by providing illegal abortions would have implications for the practice of non-sleazy providers of legal abortions, they felt.

But the celebrations turned bitter quickly, when a handful of feminists started to point out that the Gosnells of the world are the iconic back alley abortionists.  You know, the symbol of what happens when abortion is illegal.  Gosnell is just a taste of what you get with the already limited access that women have to abortion puts them in bad situations.  Imagine how many Gosnells will proliferate if abortion is criminalized and legitimate, law-abiding providers are pushed away from providing abortion.  This isn’t really a matter of conjecture, either.  We already know what America looks like when abortion is criminalized, because it used to be criminalized.  And the result was entire sections of hospitals dedicated to dealing with abortions that had gone septic because women resorted to unsafe abortions.  Considering that Pennsylvania is one of the least welcoming states for women and their reproductive health, it’s actually pretty unsurprising that a dirty operator would set up shop there. There is, after all, a huge customer base of women who have so many legal and financial obstacles in their way to getting an abortion that they’re desperate enough to go to him.  Plus, as a Philly social work blogger notes, while Pennsylvania politicians have enough time to pass onerous restrictions on access to abortion, they don’t have so much time for maintaining basic regulatory standards of care across the medical field, making it a haven for doctors who operate outside the law and outside ethics.

The politically mature response to this is to accept responsibility.  Anti-choicers could say that they’re willing to accept a certain number of deaths and mutilations a year from dirty and illegal abortions as the price they’re willing to pay to ban the procedure.  They could say that those women’s lives are worth sending the message about the proper role of women in our society to be chaste and maternal at all costs.  They could say that sending a message about protecting fetal life (and a message is all it would be, since women will find ways to abort even when it’s illegal) is more important than women’s health and safety.

But what they chose to do was deny that their preferred policies had consequences. They wrote maudlin posts about late term abortion, ignoring the fact that legal late term abortion is medically indicated, and also that women who push off aborting until later do so strictly because of anti-choice policies that make it hard to get an early term abortion.  They claimed access isn’t an issue, when of course the research and anyone who actually works with women can tell you what a miserable hamster wheel raising money for an abortion can be.  And the reason is solely and completely the fault of anti-choicers, who have made it impossible for women who require government assistance to get it for an abortion.  But the anti-choice refusal to accept this reality isn’t a surprise.  We all know how much they’ve concocted a fantasyland, where 8 week fetuses look like 30 week ones, women who have abortions pay for it with cancer and depression, and where contraception actually causes abortion.  Believing their actions have no consequences is just another fantasy.

This refusal to accept that politics have consequences is spreading from the anti-choice radicals to the right wing in general, as we saw in the aftermath of the Tucson shooting.  As I chronicled in last week’s podcast, the right wing in general is using the anti-choice playbook to deny the obvious, which is that paranoid, violent rhetoric has consequences, particularly when it’s adopted by unstable people. They learned it from the anti-choice community, who has made an art out of denying that their actions have consequences.

The one silver lining in this is that pro-choicers are often willing to pick up the responsibilities that are created by anti-choice actions.  A sea of abortion funds have cropped up to fill the holes that anti-choice policies created.  That there aren’t more predators exploiting women is due in large part to these funds pointing needy women to reliable providers and helping them, as best they can, to pay for it.  

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  • jivinj

    Amanda,

    You’ve written a lot of thoughtless, unsupported garbage in your day but this takes the cake.  Did you read the grand jury report? My guess is no. 

     

    If you did you’d know that report  notes one of the main reasons Gosnell’s clinic wasn’t inspected for 15 years was the state had pro-choice governors who didn’t want clinics to be inspected because they feared it would hurt access to abortion. Only a blind fool would think that the answer to an unregulated abortion clinic is less regulations. 

     

    ignoring the fact that legal late term abortion is medically indicated, and also that women who push off aborting until later do so strictly because of anti-choice policies that make it hard to get an early term abortion.

     

    Umm…. Please provide some type of actual evidence (besides Jill’s lazy blog post) that all late term abortions are “medically indicated” and that all women who have late term abortions do so because of prolife legislation. 

     

    If you had taken the time to learn anything about the Gosnell case, you’d realize that his late-term abortions weren’t medically indicated – they seem to have been typically performed on young, naive women and girls who waited a long time. 

     

    The National Abortion Federation had the chance to report Gosnell to authorities after inspecting his clinic, they didn’t. Gosnell worked part-time at and got patients from a Delaware abortion clinic which is certified by the NAF.

     

    Some women with late-term abortions were referred to Gosnell’s clinic by another abortion clinic in Virginia. 

     

    The women who got late term abortions at Gosnell’s clinic were there for

     

    You act like abortion funds are great but if you read the Grand Jury Report, you know that Gosnell scammed Delaware’s abortion fund into getting more money for himself.  Whoops!

     

    If tax dollars paid for abortions in Pennsylvania, how do you know that women wanting late-term abortions still wouldn’t have gone to Gosnell?  That’s right – you don’t.  So unless your willing to remove all limits on abortion (including gestational limits) there’s no reason (besides your “moral compass”) to think that women seeking post-24-week abortions still wouldn’t have gone to Gosnell. 

     

    For example, the state of New Jersey gets an A- from NARAL with regards to legislation.  They allow tax dollars to pay for abortions, yet for years an outlaw abortionist named Steven Brigham operated there and in Maryland (a state that got an A from NARAL).  Using tax dollars to pay for abortions doesn’t magically make shady abortionists disappear. 

  • goatini

    Do you really think that the State isn’t just trying to cover their collective ass here?

     

    The FACTS of this case point to the very strong possibility (I would say a probability) of the enabling and facilitating of this criminal enterprise being allowed by a person or persons deeply embedded in the state regulatory boards.  No one gets to run an ILLEGAL practice like the one in question for years and years without powerful enabling from inside the system. 

     

    And the FACTS of this case, that the initial investigation was about ILLEGAL prescriptions for narcotics, point to the very strong possibility (I would say a probablity) that some or all of the payout for the embedded mole who allowed this ILLEGAL practice to continue unabated was in NARCOTICS?

     

    All this sanctimonious blather in the grand jury report about PA state medical boards turning a blind eye and deaf ear to these crimes because the state boards were “pro-abortion” is a steaming pile of horse hockey.  NO ONE gets away with this kind of crime for so very long without big-time payola at the deepest levels of the system.  

     

    The PA criminal doctor had access to piles of unreported CASH and mountains of NARCOTICS.  Rational people looking at crimes of this magnitude continuing unabated for years know the first rule of detective work is FOLLOW THE MONEY.

  • invalid-0

    even in the days when abortion was a crime, the vast majority of abortion providers were competent, caring professionals …

    [Pro-choicers] have proliferated this stereotype of the Back Alley Butcher. The image of the sleazy abortion provider who mutilates women for the cold, hard cash 

     - Marcotte (2008)

     

    Gosnell is just a taste of what you get with the already limited access that women have to abortion puts them in bad situations.  Imagine how many Gosnells will proliferate if abortion is criminalized and legitimate, law-abiding providers are pushed away from providing abortion. 

     - Marcotte (above)

    Outstanding consistency, Amanda.

  • churchmouse

    The reaction to the doctors arrest was elation.

    You are damn right those who were pro-life were elated. Your column here shows that your side did not want him exposed, so that anything abortion related was brought to light so that the truth about what the abortion industry is really like.

    You want things like this to just go away. This doctor was a fluke…nothing like that ever did and ever will happen. Abortion is 100% safe all clinics up to standards…….. all a lie.   

     

    You mention….”20 mass murders a year on average, 82 deaths from guns a day,’

    Lets compare that to how many abortions happen a day. How many lives do abortionists take a year? Three thousand seven hundred abortions happen in America EVERY DAY and 1.37 million abortion happen a year.  

     

     While anyones life taken is a tragedy…in a country with over 308 million people, 22 mass murders a year is not that high. Bad things happen. We live in a country that says we have the right to bear arms, owning a gun is a RIGHT AFFORDED US IN THE CONSTITUTION. The LEFT would like all guns confiscated so that the government would even have more control over us. The thing is…the LEFT not only hates guns they hate gun owners. They are all about CHOICE….until guns are involved, until school choice comes up. Yes kill your unborn…but you should not own a gun because it MIGHT kill someone.  They are all about control and power and they do not respect life period.

     Amanda said, “…the Gosnells of the world are the iconic back alley abortionists.  You know, the symbol of what happens when abortion is illegal.”

    Which were few and far between before Roe…even PP states this. To bad Amanda cant get the facts straight. What she is saying here is this….it is to bad that abortion is not legal even until the ninth month, that if it were things like this would not happen and Gosnell would be celebrated instead of arrested.

    Am I right Amanda?

    Abortion Amanda is elective surgery just like plastic surgery. Less than 15 of woman need late term help with a pregnancy and most the time the doctor can save both mother and baby. No government should help me get a face life let alone an abortion. Abortion is killing….and our government should not be in the killing business. We are already in a war that should not be going on.

    If you want an abortion……..YOU PAY FOR IT. If a woman does not have the money………..to damn bad. Save for it and then the next time pregnancy happens she will have money. We dont buy cars for people because they cant afford them, and we should not pay for abortions either. An abortion is not a necessity. This is a big difference between the Left and the Right….the Left believes they are owed everything…that the government should pay and support everyones needs. Our Constitution does not say that the government owes anyone anything.

     

    Amanda you are like the Left wing reporters after the Tucson shootings that blamed Sarah Palin. The shootings had nothing to do with Sarah Palin or anything she said. This guy was obsessed with her dating back to 2007. But the Left needed to take anything they could to boost Obamas ratings…and Obama ran away with the opportunity and organized a pep rally in Tucson (and thats what it was I was there) and photo op. Of course the Left wing media soon realized that they had to back away from the Palin connections because they looked absurd. If the shoe fits Amanda.

     

    The thing this arrest did was to make the abortion industry bad. It shows it not always is as safe as the pro-aborts want people to think it is. It shows that women die from abortion. And the thing is they die in clinics by abortionists that are in legal clinics. Mistakes happen, but the LEFT covers them up and most cases are settled before getting to court.  You color it any way you want to…but it shows that Tiller was not the only abortionist who did illegal late term abortions. And anyone who thinks that Gosnell is the rare case is ignorant and naive.

     There are preditors attacking women alright….the LEFT…PP….NARAL and all those who champion the innocent killing of our unborn children.

    Again if the shoe fits wear it.

     

     

      

  • azoreangypsy

    So, the US has 308 million people. The earth supports over 6 Billion. That’s a lot of people. Who’s feeding them? Where will the water come from? Let me see…would the generous providers be Monsanto? Would the loving HMO’s provide medical care for those babies, those children? No.

    Where will these babies be educated? In a nation that ranks very low in world education stats?

    Where will these babies be housed? In the ever increasing ghettos?

    I believe that those that oppose abortion are manipulated by a group that wants poor, starving people who’s only choices are military, police, jailer or serf.

    It’s so very easy to be angry over a fetus, but let’s not think of the babies we kill daily in the name of freedom.  Freedom that is stripped consistantly while the masses are diverted.

    Let me ask you, Do you feel safer in an airplane because someone gropes you?

    How about cameras everywhere, why no public outcry over that?

    Why no public outcry over botched elections, massive logging, mountain top mining. How many are screaming over the poisons that afflict Appalachia?

    “pro-life” is a diversion that those in power want to be played out in order for us to ignore the reality of our world.

    The bottom line is – if you’re against abortion, don’t have one. If you’re against abortion, then be prepared to provide for the fetus that will require medical aid, food, shelter, education…you know, all those  programs that ‘pro-lifers’ are agianst.

    I support abortion because it’s no ones business but my own.

     

  • carolyninthecity

     

    “Umm…. Please provide some type of actual evidence (besides Jill’s lazy blog post) that all late term abortions are “medically indicated” and that all women who have late term abortions do so because of prolife legislation. 

     If you had taken the time to learn anything about the Gosnell case, you’d realize that his late-term abortions weren’t medically indicated - they seem to have been typically performed on young, naive women and girls who waited a long time”.

    No they weren’t medically indicated because they were illegal. Legal late-term abortions which take place in hospitals or legitimate clinics are medically indicated because licensed and regulated practices follow the law. Gosnell was working outside of the law. He delivered babies alive and killed them. That is not what legal abortion looks like. 

     

    And just because a state has liberal abortion legislation and less barriers then other states doesn’t mean there won’t be people like Gosnell. It just means in the place with limited access there will be more of him, ready to swoop in and take advantage of the extremely poor and desperate. 

    Women will have an abortion as soon as they can possibly make the appointment. No one chooses to wait 5 months if they can abort at 5 weeks. Logic will tell you that things like mandatory 24-hour waiting periods, parental consent laws, lack of health insurance and therefor having to pay for an abortion out of pocket is only the short list of anti-choice legislation which impedes timely access to abortion. 

  • carolyninthecity

    “even in the days when abortion was a crime, the vast majority of abortion providers were competent, caring professionals”

     

    Yes the majority, not all

    if abortion is made illegal tomorrow, yes many doctors would still perform them in secret. But people without regular family doctors or the knowledge of where to go to find one will still turn to “clinics” like Gosnell’s, which there would inevitably be more of. Because regardless of what the legal limits of abortion are, there will always be sick people like him willing to harm and kill to make a buck. 

  • crowepps

     But people without regular family doctors or the knowledge of where to go to find one

    Teenagers who are afraid the “regular family doctor” is going to tattle to their parents are certainly likely to be customers.

  • carolyninthecity

    Exactly. A perfect example.

  • ldan

    So that’s something like 1 in 5 of the women getting abortions right there.

     

    Also, caring professionals who perform under substandard conditions because of secrecy are going to have more problems than those operating legally and in proper facilities.

  • plume-assassine

    You don’t know anything about abortion or the safety of abortion clinics aside from the pseudoscience myths and hysteria that you have been brainwashed to believe in.

     

    The LEFT would like all guns confiscated so that the government would even have more control over us

    HAHAHA what a lie. And what’s this… worry about government control coming from someone who thinks that a woman’s uterus should be protected PROPERTY, owned and controlled by the federal government! You are so full of it.

  • eternalskeptic

    We get that more regulation requires more government spending and irritation from those being regulated, but believe that’s the price to pay for having safe food, water, medical care, and fair standards in labor. 

     

    But….you don’t get it or your side would have been calling for more regulation, not less.  The National Abortion Federation, which laughably assures us that they’re self-regulated, has a longstanding history of opposing the very clinic regulations that could have saved Karnamaya Mongar’s life.  NAF would rather regulate its own clinics, thank you (which is as sadly amusing as the prospect of Smithfield factory farms, BP, or Monsanto doing their own inspections).  Non-NAF members be damned! 

    Proper regulatory laws, and the enforcement thereof, would have prevented this tragedy.  But “pro-choicers,” including the PA governor who washed his hands of the matter and the NAF representative who CHOSE not to turn in Gosnell, decided that such standards were “burdensome” and “stigmatized” abortion.  In other words, they decided that abortion was more important than women.  Well congratulations, pro-choicers.  You got your way.  It cost some lives, but you got your way.

     

  • invalid-0

    There’s an incredible hypocrisy in pro-choice condemnation of Gosnell’s clinic.  Either allow the government and its health inspection agencies to investigate the damned clinics or don’t.  

    I mean, every time a piece of legislation comes forward which regulates an abortion provider, pro-choicers get up in arms over the “attack on access to women’s health”, and you have the gall to blame us when one of your scum suckers seeps out of the woodwork?

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe either pro-choicers or pro-lifers CAUSED what was going on at that clinic, but it definitely wasn’t our side fighting for the laws that ALLOWED it to occur.

    Yay for reproductive freedom though, eh?

  • arekushieru

    has a longstanding history of opposing the very clinic regulations that could have saved Karnamaya Mongar’s life.

    Too bad this has already been addressed.  The standards of care and oversight that would have been expected in the undertaking that you stated that NAF opposed, would have, essentially, closed those clinics down.  But, of course, that’s what you want, isn’t it?  This is just distraction to take away from what you believe is the REAL issue.  So, THEY did not decide that abortion was more important than women, after all.

    Besides, false equivalence much?  It seems to me that most of the clinics that the article on NAF referred to, here, have managed to perform with standards of care far and above adequate, yet you want to compare them to Gosnell in order to suggest that it is NAF that fell down on the job?

    It seems, maybe, you should change your name to  EternalSkepticonlyifIdisagreewithit. 

  • ahunt

    Sigh.

     

    The incredible hypocrisy is that unnecessary regulation is aimed NOT at the safety of women, but rather, to render abortion inaccessible…and you know it, Arex. Spare us.

  • arekushieru

    And where did we oppose the government or health inspection agencies right to investigate the clinics?  We didn’t.  It seems Gosnell is only one bad apple amongst a number of good ones.  If that’s the case, then OBviously we didn’t fall down on the job.  We just opposed stringent guidelines that would have closed all the good, as well as bad clinics, down.  What WE are proposing, and you are opposing, is the closure of the bad clinics while keeping the good ones open.  Nice try.

  • rebellious-grrl

    It’s so ironic that conservatives and anti-choicers want the government out of their lives but want the government to govern our uteruses. So sick of that crap.

     

    BTW, I wanted to comment on your screen-name before, I love it! “The pen is mightier than the sword.”

  • crowepps

    I don’t know of anybody here who said that clinics shouldn’t be inspected or that clinics shouldn’t have to meet standards of health and safety or that clinic personnel shouldn’t perform to appropriate medical standards.

     

    I find it hard to believe that you can’t see the difference between that and a piece of legislation that ‘regulates an abortion provider’ by requiring the DOCTOR to spend time personally reading her lies about how she’s definitely going to get breast cancer/kill herself or, for instance, do an ultrasound at 8 weeks and then grab the patient’s chin to force her to look at the teensy blob it depicts while screaming, “look at it, that’s the FETUS you’re murdering!”

     

    In my opinion, this is precisely what ProLife is fighting for — making abortion illegal so that we go back to the typical ‘traditional’ clinic run by exactly this type of scum sucker in it entirely for the bucks, with the goal of making sure women who refuse to stay pregnant suffer or die.

  • catseye71352

    Remember, these are the same people who hysterically oppose laws protecting homeowners from foreclosure fraud on the grounds that “regulation is baaaaaaaad.”

  • eternalskeptic

    It seems to me that most of the clinics that the article on NAF referred to, here, have managed to perform with standards of care far and above adequate, yet you want to compare them to Gosnell in order to suggest that it is NAF that fell down on the job?

     

    Exactly that.  :-) Gosnell applied to be part of the NAF.  The NAF representative, while appalled by the conditions of Gosnell’s racket, opted not to blow the whistle.

    Too bad this has already been addressed.  The standards of care and oversight that would have been expected in the undertaking that you stated that NAF opposed, would have, essentially, closed those clinics down

     

    Exactly which clinics did Pennsylvania’s Abortion Control Act, the regulatory law which the governor decided not to enforce for politically “pro-choice” reasons, close down?

     

    (And please read the report in its entirety before hitting the reply button).

     

  • equalist

    But they really are for small government.  Government so small that it can’t do anything about massive corporate corruption, and as a bonus small enough to fit inside the uterus of an unwilling woman.  Now THAT’s a tiny government!

  • arekushieru

    Umm, I don’t need to.  Because you weren’t replying to my comment.  I said they WOULD HAVE been closed, not DID close them down, IF these regulations were put in place, inSTEAD of being kept off the plate, as they were.

    Nor did you read the first comment you replied to.  I was replying to a comparison you were making.  One that shouldn’t have been made.  And, now, an unfair one, apparently, since you, yourself have stated that the settings of these other clinics had nothing to do with your original claim, in the first place.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    It’s amazing to me that all the comments pointing out that pro-choicers oppose the very regulations which would have made sure that this didn’t happen, even pointing out that the NAF turned the proverbial blind eye in this case, are all rated as spam. I suppose the truth really does hurt.

  • arekushieru

    It’s amazing to me that you didn’t read all the comments that were made in reply to those comments that were faded, which might have explained it.  Oh… wait… no, it isn’t.

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    Here’s some examples of regulations which I (and I think most pro-choicers) would agree with:

    • inspections from state boards of health/safety to insure that:
    • the only people performing abortions are actual doctors, either board-certified OBGYNs or another well-trained doctor working under a board-certified OBGYN
    • there are no expired drugs
    • all necessary equipment which should be there (oxygen sources, defibrillators, pulse oximeters, an autoclave, et cetera) are there
    • the hallways are wide enough for stretchers and wheelchairs
    • there is a working elevator if the clinic is more than one story
    • all drugs are being used safely and by lisenced staff with appropriate qualifications only
    • records are being kept properly
    • the facility is clean, all instruments are sterilized before using/between uses, all disposable instruments are disposed of, all biohazardous medical waste is also disposed of properly, and all employees are taking appropriate precautions when handling such waste
    • no one is being forced into having an abortion and that there are precautions in place to prevent this
    • ultrasounds are being done correctly in order to give a correct reading of the gestational age

    …If any of these regulations (which were technically in place) were actually followed by the state, Gosnell would have been shut down sometime in the 1980s or 1990s. 

    Here are some “regulations” I (and most other pro-choicers) do not support:

    • mandatory 24-hour waiting periods and/or making two seperate clinic visits, one to sign a consent form and one to have the procedure
    • parental notification laws
    • forcing women to see their ultrasounds
    • forcing women to listen to fetal heartbeats
    • telling them incorrect information about fetal development

    There’s a difference, and if you can’t spot it, than you’re either extremely obtuse or completely disingenous.

  • harry834

    for enumerating this for us. I like lists.

  • crowepps

    Government small enough to fit inside a uterus.

     

    The internet is yours for the day.

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    You’re welcome.  I just got so sick of all the “but pro-choicers say they don’t WANT  regulations!” stuff.   There are things that keep patients safe, and there are things which make accessing abortion unecessarily difficult.  And the Pennsylvania Grand Jury said in its report on Gosnell’s clinic that the state would be wise to follow the lead NAF, Planned Parenthood, and other pro-choice groups in figuring out regulations for abortion clinics.

  • churchmouse

    Great more power to the people.

    The only thing is….Lefties dont like small anything…so that makes no sense.

     

  • eternalskeptic
  • ack
  • the only people performing abortions are actual doctors, either board-certified OBGYNs or another well-trained doctor working under a board-certified OBGYN

    Trained nurse practitioners are qualified and capable of performing surgical abortions, as well as administering (though not prescribing) medical abortion.

  • churchmouse

    Our educational sytem is run by the NEA so is it any surprise that its as bad as it is? They don’t like competition so our schools are a mess. They think you should have the choice to kill a living human being…but deny parents the right to send their children to better schools. The public schools are the way to brainwash…young kids to the ideals of the LEFT.

    The NEA is in bed with Democrats, PP and they force their own union members to support such groups as ACORN. The NEA fights against any kind of reform…..so it is no wonder that we rate low against other countries of the world.

    If anyone diverts the masses its the NEA, right into their web of humanism.

    They spend money to corrupt.

    Why should I pay for someones mistake? Thats the thing about you socialists…..you want everyone to pay for you, foot your bills. If you mess up YOU TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. The thing is you cant comprehend responsiblity and taking personal ownership….of something. I should not have to provide you a home, food, schooling OR AN ABORTION….or to take care of the offspring YOU PRODUCE. Get off your arse….get a job and start working. Take responsibility for YOUR ACTIONS AND ESPECIALLY ACTIONS IN THE BEDROOM. 

    STOP KILLING INNOCENT BABIES AND ENJOYING IT…whip the smile off your face and just try to be compassionate for once.

    And show me in the Constitution where it says the government should support every one of its citizens.

     

     

      

     

  • churchmouse

    And it is my business if the government gives you money for an abortion.

  • therealistmom

    The government is responsible for helping it’s citizens get safe, well-regulated, necessary medical care. Abortion, and ALL reproductive health, falls under that.

    So no, it’s not your business. No more than if your neighbor uses his Medicaid to have hemhorroids removed.

    I don’t get to say I don’t want my tax money to go to, say, killing innocent civilians in the Middle East,  or subsidizing unhealthy food products (the dairy industry and corn immediately come to mind).

    You sure as hell don’t get to deny women health care.

     

  • therealistmom

     

    -removed-

  • freetobe

    I will stick to my responsiblities as I always have and you stick to yours. The problem is you stick your nose in others buisiness and others bodies and others lives. That is not practicing what you preach is it?

    If you do not like or want abortion fine. Do not think that God expects you to stop abortion to save your soul. it does not work that way. Only each individual is responsible for their own souls. Again practice what you preach and leave others alone.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    So why was it that when Ken Cucinelli stated that Virginia should hold abortion clinics to the same standards that hospitals are held to, pro-choice groups complained, crying either about there being placed an undue burden on abortion clinics or political motivation? Pro-choicers don’t want any real regulation of abortion clinics, which is why they scream bloody murder when someone has the ‘audacity’ to suggest regulating abortion clinics much the same way you’d regulate any other medical facility. There is a reason issues such as this happen more routinely in the northeast and west than they do in the south and midwest, and it has to do with the fact that two of those areas regularly regulate abortion clinics whilst the others do not.

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    You may very well be correct.  I’m not going to argue this point; I know at least some states (Montana is one) allow APNs to perform surgical abortions, and there are still more which allow them to give medication abortions. 

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    Back it up, please.  Which groups?  Which standards?  What kind of standards did they already have in place?  Was this law redundant? 

    Furthermore, I just gave you an example of regulations which I, as a pro-choicer, think are good.  Another commenter disagreed to one part of it, but sie certainly didn’t “scream bloody murder.”  You cannot make a blanket statement about what pro-choicers want or do not want when it deliberately contradicts what actual pro-choicers have said we actually want.  Also, NAF regulates clinics to ensure that clinics are held to standards such as those which I mentioned.  Obviously, if they didn’t want “any real regulation of abortion clinics,” they would have no reason to do this. 

    …though really, why do I bother arguing?  You’re just using this atrocity as a political talking point to advance your backwards views and cast doubt upon all legitimate abortion providers because of the actions of one illegitimate one, when if there were a greater number of legitimate doctors who were easier to find, easier to afford, easier to get to without being harassed by protesters, et cetera, the women who experienced these atrocities wouldn’t have done so.  As far as I’ve been able to suss out, anti-choicers didn’t have a word to say about Gosnell before this first came to light back in 2010.  Nope.  They were too busy harrassing people at Philadelphia’s Planned Parenthood clinic, or stalking doctors across the country, or setting up moronic “sting” operations relying on heavy video editing.  You’ll hurt all of us who actually care about our patients, but you’ll never stop monsters from being monsters, and if you get your way, there’ll only be more Gosnells.  (Though honestly, maybe that’s your goal.)

  • carolyninthecity

    your post reeks of privilege denial. 

    Do you really not comprehend the systematic inequality and oppression that produces poverty?

    It’s not so easy to just “pull your self up by your boot straps” or whatever that Conservative catch phrase is- for people born into or forced into poverty. 

    Capitalism thrives on people working for minimum wage. It’s how the system is set up. A well-paying job does not exist for every person willing to work hard for it. Ask anyone with a Masters degree working at Starbucks. 

    You cannot support a family on minimum wage without a lot of help and a strong support system. Many pregnant women do not have that, so bringing a child into the world when you’re working part time or trying to put yourself through school, or supporting a sick family member, or whatever the situation may be, can ruin your life and drive you further into poverty. 

     

    Why should a woman have to sacrifice all her hopes and ambitions and everything she may have worked incredibly hard for, just because she had sex? Why is the potential life of a non-sentient, non-thinking, non-feeling fetus more important then the life the women wants and deserves for herself? It’s not logical or fair by any stretch of the imagination. 

     

    and you don’t have to pay for abortions with your precious tax dollars, it’s called the Hyde Amendment. 

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    Yep.  Agreed.  Bad decision by the Pennsylvania government.  Bad decision by a pro-choicer, who was also a Republican, and was likely against regulation in all industries.  If that’s even what it was; it seems like a bit too pat of an answer.  From what I’ve read, it seems more like an issue of “everybody’s business is nobody’s business,” bureaucratic laziness, and an institutional lack of caring about issues primarily affecting women who were poor, people of color, immigrants, or all three.  Also, even with such lax regulation, clinics were still to have been inspected in the event of a complaint.  And there were many complaints filed against Gosnell, most of which went unaddressed or barely-addressed.  And no, I have no idea why whoever from NAF inspected Gosnell’s clinic didn’t immediately try to do something about it.  It’s possible that she knew nothing would come of it, but again–she’s one person.  Possibly a very busy person, and not representative of all of NAF or all of the pro-choice world.

  • arekushieru

    Hmm, I smell another (convoluted) reference to Horton Hears a Who….  Why is that, since Dr. Seuss ESTATE has asked people to stop using his material, FALSELY?

    Neither do the Conservatives, btw.  They just aren’t honest about it. 

     

  • arekushieru

    Why should you spend money for women to receive care during pregnancy and childbirth, then?  If you don’t want to spend money to pay for someone else’s mistakes, you don’t get to pick and choose.  Which means that there will only be FEWER pregnancies carried to term and more abortions.  Don’t you just LOVE the hypocrisy of RW conservative ProLifers?  I know I do, because it’s so EASY to defeat.

    Private schools only mean that the rich now have greater options, while poorer families are put at an even GREATER disadvantage.  Of course, I forgot, socialism for the rich and letemfuckinDIE for the poor, is the way the conservatives like to run things.

    Oh, Idk, forced to support Acorn, sounds a lot more like sturm and drang by the conservatives to hide their own efforts on these matters.

    MOST women who have had abortions have used some form of contraception and were also married.  It’s funny that a lot of you ACers like to push the marriage button all the time, as if it will magically ‘solve’ all your problems or, at least, not create any more problems.  Obviously not.  If you need more proof just look at the divorce rate.  Derrrr….

    Again, with the right hand not knowing what the left (or, should that be the other right) hand is doing?  THIS is why I cannot truly call you anti-abortion.   You reJECT policies that would actually reDUCE the number of abortions. 

    I should not have to support your wars, but, even as a Canadian, I do.  Why can’t you conservatives just take responsibility for YOUR MESSES?  Y’see, you preach responsibility, but only if it has to do with OTHER people.  Hypocrites.

    Fetuses are neither innocent or guilty, or you just called your table innocent.  Fetuses are not babies, or I will start calling you teenybopper/oldfogey mouse, depending on whether you are a middle-aged person or an adolescent, respectively, or both, if you don’t tell me.  I sincerely hope you did not call abortion killing, otherwise I would have to write to specific medical/legal experts telling them you called them killers when they removed people from artificial life support.

    NO one ‘enjoys’ abortion, just like no one ‘enjoys’ childbirth and just like no one ‘enjoys’ any other kind of surgery.  You want actual people to suffer, all the while making much of a fetus’ (non-existent) ‘suffering’, and you say WE’RE the ones who aren’t compassionate? 

  • nonsense-nonsense

    No, it wasn’t redundant in the slightest. Here is Cuccinelli’s opinion regarding regulating abortion clinics where he states that clinics can be regulated by the board of health, which would make them regulated just as hospitals are regulated, instead of by the board of medicine. Pro-choice groups were up in arms about it, claiming that it was unnecessary, that it was politically motivated, that he shouldn’t force his personal beliefs on others, that numerous abortion clinics would have to close because they couldn’t meet the new guidelines, etc., as they usually do when someone states that abortion clinics should be better regulated.

     

    As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words, and regardless of what any one pro-choicer says, they’re the ones who are constantly up in arms at the thought of someone regulating abortion clinics, and they usually throw out some ridiculous categorization of said regulations to try to make them sound extreme or unreasonable. For example, look at one of the posts above which makes mention to ultrasound laws, which have nothing to do with what state agency regulates an abortion clinic. The thing which amuses me the most is that, in a startling twist of irony, pro-choicers have no problem complaining and trying to pin the blame on pro-lifers when said regulations are not instituted and an abortionist continues to operate whereas he wouldn’t have been if said regulations had been instituted. Just look at both your post and the original article. As JivinJ pointed out earlier, Gosnell would have been out of business years ago if the pro-choice governor didn’t keep refusing greater state regulations of abortions. But that little fact has consistently been ignored by the pro-choice crowd.

     

    Try to spin, squirm and squeal as you might, Gosnell was only able to operate because he wasn’t regulated, which is what pro-lifers pushed for in the state, not because pro-lifers were busy, as you put it, harassing other abortion clinics so that women had to be forced to go to Gosnell, which also doesn’t make sense as it assumes that no pro-lifer was outside of Gosnell’s offices protesting.

     

    And for what it’s worth, I haven’t seen to many Gosnell’s down south. They typically tend to appear in Pennsylvania or New Jersey or Maryland or California. Or Florida.

  • ahunt

    Why should a woman have to sacrifice all her hopes and ambitions and everything she may have worked incredibly hard for, just because she had sex?

     

    Because she was not born with a penis.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    Show me this world you live in where a man isn’t expected to give up his hopes and ambitions and everything he worked incredibly hard for just because he had sex. Before you try to scream misogyny, at least join us in the real world where men are expected to give up their hopes and dreams to take care of a child even if he didn’t necessarily want it. Courts don’t care if you’re a male and if forcing you to take care of a child you didn’t necessarily want causes you to drop out of school or negatively impacts your wages. Surely you consider that to be misandry, too, right?

  • arekushieru

    Show me this fantasy world you live in where women are NOT expected to take on most of the child-rearing responsibilities and everything is shared equally.  If that WERE the case then there wouldn’t be more ‘deadbeat’ dads than ‘deadbeat’ moms, even though ‘mom’ usually has far less income than her male counterpart.

    And show me this fantasy world where women can just walk away from their bodies and men are forced, by chain and ball, to remain and raise the children.

    Courts don’t care if you’re female, either, btw.  They’ll still garnishee your wages based on income, for child support.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    There are more deadbeat dads than deadbeat moms because women are awarded custody more often than men. Women, however, are far more apt to skip out on child support than are men, even though they pay far less to men than do men pay to women, meaning that a greater percentage of women are deadbeats than men. Anyway, no woman has to pay child support unless she actively chooses to get to the point where she has to pay child support. A man, on the other hand, will pay child support even if he didn’t want the child; even if the woman found the disposed condom and impregnated herself with the sperm from it; and even for children that aren’t biologically his. But feel free to continue to talk about misogyny.

  • churchmouse

    In my opinion, this is precisely what ProLife is fighting for — making abortion illegal so that we go back to the typical ‘traditional’ clinic run by exactly this type of scum sucker in it entirely for the bucks, with the goal of making sure women who refuse to stay pregnant suffer or die.

    WE are fighting to save innocent lives. We value all life and we don’t forget the life in the womb.

    It amazes me the ignorance of the posters on this site. You don’t even know the facts that even Planned Parenthood said that abortions were done in clinics by doctors before Roe. Do you think Tiller did late term abortions because he loved and wanted to help women. He was a millionaire. How many doctors today make the kind of money abortionists who do late term abortions?

    “Why, you may well ask, do some American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology, discredit themselves by carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful destruction of what is undeniably human life. It is an impermissible act of deadly violence.”

    http://www.creationtips.com/abortion_2.html

     

  • arekushieru

    Umm, you missed that part of my post that was supposed to suggest that women make less income than men do, on average, didn’t you?

    Um, the one with the larger financial responsibility is the one who was given custody.  So, going by YOUR logic, women are forced to pay more in child support than men.  Courts STILL grant custody based on outdated  patriarchal norms.  Women are still believed to be more nurturing and child-rearing capable than men.  So, no misandry, here.

    DO explain to me how you have ALways managed to equate physical burden with lack of said physical burden?  -1 does NOT equal 1, after all.  Derrrrr….

    It’s the WOMAN’s body.  She didn’t ASK to have a uterus and the function that is based upon its presence, to take place inside her. 

    If you grant her NO choice with a physical burden she HAS, based on the fact that a man has no choice, because he lacks it, that IS misogyny. 

    A woman will pay child support once there is an existing child, JUST like a man will pay child support when there is an exISting child.  She will even pay child support for children that aren’t hers, as well.

    THAT is equality.  YOUR way IS misogyny.

  • plume-assassine

    Women, however, are far more apt to skip out on child support than are men, even though they pay far less to men than do men pay to women, meaning that a greater percentage of women are deadbeats than men.

     

    even if the woman found the disposed condom and impregnated herself with the sperm from it; and even for children that aren’t biologically his. 

    Proof? And how often does the disposed condom thing happen?

     

    This is the same old bullshit that you brought up as Panhandler. Last time I checked, being forced to give up a percentage of your wages for born children is not equivalent to the inhumanity of being forced to gestate a fetus and give up ownership of your body. No, you cannot take away women’s bodily right to abortion as “payback” for all the men who are stuck with child support. Also, no, you cannot force your girlfriend to have an abortion because you didn’t want kids.

  • arekushieru

    How many doctors today make the kind of money abortionists who do late term abortions?

    Ob/Gyns.  WHOOOPS…?

    And we never said they weren’t done in clinics.  What don’t you get between illegal and legal…?

    WE are fighting to save innocent lives. We value all life and we don’t forget the life in the womb.

    Fetuses aren’t innocent.  Women are, though.  And you’re fighting to kill them.  If you valued ALL *existence*, you would grant EVERYONE the right to life you would grant feoti.  You don’t.  If you value all aspects of life, equally, the woman comes up short.  SO sorry.

    And, as for the rest of your post, times that by almost 100% and you will get the intake that an ob/gyn receives.  Again, WHOOOPS…?

  • plume-assassine

    In my opinion, this is precisely what ProLife is fighting for — making abortion illegal so that we go back to the typical ‘traditional’ clinic run by exactly this type of scum sucker in it entirely for the bucks, with the goal of making sure women who refuse to stay pregnant suffer or die.

    Is this how you get your rocks off, churchmouse? Imagining a world in which women SUFFER and DIE unless they remain pregnant against their will? You are one sick, sadistic puppy. You just proved right there that you don’t give 2 shits about valuing human life. You are PRO-DEATH.

  • churchmouse

    http://www.douglasdispatch.com/articles/2008/05/17/news/doc482df452a4e0d612383807.txt

     

    Nurses can perform abortions. Pretty soon the receptionist with a little training will be able to do them.

     ”Bafaloukos said Planned Parenthood uses a nurse practitioner to perform abortions because the demand for services exceeds what its doctors can provide.”

    So doctors are not the only ones performing abortion. I wonder how many women who kill their babies know just who did the killing?

    No woman who goes in for an abortion asks the persons doing it for credentials. They just think that whoever there is qualified. Most deaths and injuries involve anethestic. Many times the doctor thinks he/she can handle the situation and when it goes bad….the woman is the one who pays.

     

    You are so anti-family it is amazing…goes with the worldview. To go behind a parents back…is inexcusable. Who do you think would pick up the pieces if the minor had problems? PP? Yea right. Who takes responsiblity for the minor? This is what I am talking about big government butting their nose in our business.

    Your list is absurd….you do not even know the facts. When anyone goes in for surgery they should hear the risks. You empty hearted people just cant deal with reality….the heartbeat. Of course you dont want to hear it.

    You know what makes me cringe……….the idea of many of you having children of your own. I cant stomach any of you because you are moral less… 

  • colleen

    with the goal of making sure women who refuse to stay pregnant suffer or die.

    I agree. This is the primary goal of the ‘pro–life’ movement . You’re the same sort of shriveled ugly creatures who, in other centuries, formed cheering crowds when the Church burned heretics. Their screams were so entertaining.

    Harassing, belittling, torturing and killing women and pregnant children  has always been  a source of great pleasure to smug, self righteous little moral pygmies. ( I intend no offense towards pygmies. )

     

  • plume-assassine

    ACORN… WEB OF HUMANISM …. SOCIALISTS… KILLING INNOCENT BABIES

    Oh, your poor, poor dear! Are you going to be all right sweetums? Maybe it’s time to lay off the Glenn Beck kool-aid?

  • nonsense-nonsense

    Umm, you missed that part of my post that was supposed to suggest that women make less income than men do, on average, didn’t you?

     

    Women in similar jobs fields tend to make the same as men (iirc, they even make more than men in the upper echelons based on education). I don’t know why we keep perpetuating this myth. You typically only see differences across different job categories, such as nursing versus engineering or something similar. As you typically say, nice try.

     

    Um, the one with the larger financial responsibility is the one who was given custody.  So, going by YOUR logic, women are forced to pay more in child support than men.  Courts STILL grant custody based on outdated  patriarchal norms.  Women are still believed to be more nurturing and child-rearing capable than men.  So, no misandry, here.

     

    What garbage. It’s obvious you have no experience with the system. The current system is opposed by men’s rights groups and supported by some of the more militant feminist groups, so how could the system be based on patriarchal norms? It can’t be, unless you’re going to tell me that you support the patriarchy. Whether or not you realize this, and you probably don’t, women are awarded custody more often than men because they are women, and considered to be the homemakers while men the breadwinners. This is why women win about, iirc, 90% of all custody battles. Unless she has some serious issue which will be considered a detriment to the child, she will almost always win support, and the man will be ordered to pay her far more money based on what he makes relative to what she would pay him based on what she makes. If it wasn’t misandry, then women would not only have to pay more to men then what they’re ordered, but they would be given custody less often and chased just as hard as any deadbeat dad, especially considering that they are more apt to default than a man is. 

     

    DO explain to me how you have ALways managed to equate physical burden with lack of said physical burden?  -1 does NOT equal 1, after all.  Derrrrr…

     

    Look at data compiled by AGI. Women most often have abortions for reasons that are gender independent (i.e., want to finish school, want to have a career, can’t afford a child). Are you going to tell me that a woman’s wishes for her future is more important than a man’s wishes for his future? If you are, then I’ll point out to you that that’s also misandry.

     

    It’s the WOMAN’s body.  She didn’t ASK to have a uterus and the function that is based upon its presence, to take place inside her. 

     

    If you grant her NO choice with a physical burden she HAS, based on the fact that a man has no choice, because he lacks it, that IS misogyny

     

    Pregnancy does not occur spontaneously. There are many choices to be made before the fact, such as choosing whether or not to engage in sex in the first place.

     

     

    A woman will pay child support once there is an existing child, JUST like a man will pay child support when there is an exISting child. 

     

    Only if she chooses to get to that point. You don’t get to ignore the entire point between conception and birth when it suits you to do so.


    She will even pay child support for children that aren’t hers, as well.

     

    What a crock of baloney. There is no court in the land which will allow a man to go out and have a child with someone other than his SO behind her back and then make his SO pay child support for that child. NONE.

  • ahunt

    You know what makes me cringe……….the idea of many of you having children of your own. I cant stomach any of you because you are moral less…

     

    Well Hell, Churchmouse….if the idea of any of us having children makes you cringe…wouldn’t you prefer that we abort?  If you think WE”RE bad, just imagine the children we would raise!

  • crowepps

    This was not an admission by Churchmouse, she was quoting my previous statement and had a blockquote failure.

     

    I would add that Churchmouse’s inability to cope with reality and her inability to tolerate our existence or the fact that we disagree wtih her creates no responsibility for any of us to whitewash reality so she can be  psychologically comfy about the validity of her sentimentalist myths of motherhood.  She really isn’t very good at doing guilt trips.  If she really is distressed, a good psychiatrist and some Xanax might help.

  • crowepps

    Ignoring, of course, the fact that most men who DIE at work do so in vehicle accidents.

  • rebellious-grrl

    If she really is distressed, a good psychiatrist and some Xanax might help.

    crowepps, that’s what I was thinking. A visit to a therapist or psychiatrist may do her some good. I can’t even read her ever more bizarre posts anymore without feeling sorry for her that she really needs some mental help.

  • crowepps

    Seriously, the same standards as HOSPITALS?  Because they’re not hospitals.  My doctor took a mole off my back at his office.  His office does not and does not NEED to meet the same standard as hospitals because the types of procedures he is willing to do in his office don’t require it.  Abortion is a simple, extremely safe procedure, particularly in the first trimester, and therefore a clinic which provides only those procedures does NOT need to be at ‘hospital’ level.

     

    In Bangledesh where abortion is illegal “menstrual regulation clinics” minimally trained nonmedical staff using the manual aspiration technique are estimated to end half a million pregnancies a year with few problems.  Maybe we ought to move MR out of the private clubs in the United States, and have a ‘Periods ‘R Us Clinic’ in every strip mall to ‘get it over with in minutes’.  Since there’s no pregnancy test done, and it’s JUST hurrying a period along, it wouldn’t be considered or have to be regulated as an abortion.

  • jayn

    Maybe they’d even offer discounts if you buy tampons or pads during the same visit.

  • goatini

    and I see they are still offered, particularly in NYC, now they are called “aspiration procedures”.  

  • goatini

    This is an urban myth perpetrated by AM radio misogynist Tom Leykis in his “Leykis 101″ segments.  

     

    His advice to Teh Menz was that men should wrap that rascal in order to avoid unwanted parenthood (putatively good advice)… AND should also endeavor to surreptitiously splash tabasco into the spent wrapper after discarding it.  

     

    Because otherwise, those crafty hos would retrieve the wrapper from the trash, and dispense the contents into a turkey baster.

     

    Thoroughly documented at The Leykis 101 site:

    http://www.leykis101.com/tip-of-the-day/dating-is-for-sex-not-for-procreation

  • goatini

    This is an urban myth perpetrated by AM radio misogynist Tom Leykis in his “Leykis 101″ segments.  

     

    His advice to Teh Menz was that men should wrap that rascal in order to avoid unwanted parenthood (putatively good advice)… AND should also endeavor to surreptitiously splash tabasco into the spent wrapper after discarding it.  

     

    Because otherwise, those crafty hos would retrieve the wrapper from the trash, and dispense the contents into a turkey baster.

     

    Thoroughly documented at The Leykis 101 site:

    http://www.leykis101.com/tip-of-the-day/dating-is-for-sex-not-for-procreation