Back-Alley Abortions in 2011: How Anti-Choice Zealots Force Women to Go to Dangerous Clinics


This article is cross-posted with permission from Alternet.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell has been charged with murdering one woman and seven newborn babies at his rogue clinic, called the Women’s Medical Society, in West Philadelphia. Though it’s too early to predict this case’s full political impact, it’s certain that anti-abortion groups will use it to push for further restrictions on women’s reproductive rights. But the legislation pushed by these anti-abortion conservatives is what has forced women into such life-threatening situations. Poor women throughout the United States cannot afford safe abortions and in consequence sometimes make extremely dangerous choices.

“Because of the Medicaid ban on abortion funding and state restrictions, poor women in the state and in Philadelphia really face horrific choices about what to do if they have an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, or a pregnancy that poses significant health problems,” says Rose Corrigan, a professor of politics and law at Drexel University. “So what I’ve seen is that women often shop around for abortion services. Women are so poor that a few dollars really make a difference.”

Corrigan is also a volunteer at the Women’s Medical Fund, a Philadelphia organization that offers financial assistance to poor women seeking abortions. She says that her organization has been advising women against visiting the Women’s Medical Society since the mid-1990s.

“When women would call us we’d say, ‘There’s a reason it’s cheap. Don’t go there.’”

“I think it’s also that abortion has become so stigmatized and that abortion care has become so ghettoized from mainstream medical care,” says Susan Schewel, executive director of the Women’s Medical Fund. “It means that people aren’t talking about where’s a good place to go and where’s a safe place to go. And when women are harmed they’re afraid to go the authorities. We’ve talked with people here who have been mistreated at this clinic. And we’ve asked them to report it to proper state government authorities, and they said, ‘No way would we do that.’”

Some women did complain and the grand jury report faults the State of Pennsylvania for a catastrophic failure of oversight. Law enforcement officials in Philadelphia only became aware of the clinic in the course of an unrelated investigation into allegations that Dr. Gosnell was illegally distributing narcotics like Oxycontin.

“The grand jury investigation revealed,” according to a press release from District Attorney Seth Williams, “that, for over two decades, government health and licensing officials had received repeated reports about Gosnell’s dangerous practices. No action was ever taken, however, even after the agencies learned that women had died during routine abortions under Gosnell’s care.”

“Many organizations that perform safe abortion procedures do their own monitoring and adhere to strict, self-imposed standards of quality,” according to the grand jury report. “But the excellent safety records and the quality of care that these independently monitored clinics deliver to patients are no thanks to the Pennsylvania Department of Health. And not all women seeking abortion find their way to these high-quality facilities; some end up in a filthy, dangerous clinic such as Gosnell’s.”

The Women’s Medical Society, which opened in 1979, largely treated poor women of color. Dr. Gosnell, who was not certified as an ob/gyn, is charged with the murders of 41-year-old Nepali refugee Karnamaya Mongar and seven infants, and a number of other violations. Nine other clinic employees face murder and other charges. According to the grand jury report, Dr. Gosnell provided more attentive care in cleaner rooms to white women from the suburbs.

“I think that the failure of the state, when there have been these complaints for years, speaks to the way abortion isn’t considered normal health care, that abortion is segregated off from regular health care,” says Corrigan. “I really don’t think that if these complaints were coming in about another doctor the state would have ignored it. I really think it’s also about women being punished for having an abortion.”

Many patients would visit Dr. Gosnell for late second-trimester and illegal third-trimester abortions. Limited access and information can delay women seeking an abortion.

“In our experience,” says Schewel, “we find a lot of women do what we call chasing the fee,” where poor women try to raise money for an abortion that gets more and more expensive as the pregnancy progresses. She says that stigma and misinformation also delay the procedure.

“The huge majority of abortions in this country are done in the first trimester, even first eight weeks, of pregnancy. Again, it’s about access: people not knowing where to go, that they even can get an abortion. To me what’s most striking is that throughout the globe and throughout history, women will do whatever it takes to end a pregnancy that they don’t want to carry to term. And this is an example. Whether abortion is legal or illegal, whether it’s accessible or not accessible, women who need to end a pregnancy will do whatever they need to do.”

The Hyde Amendment bars the spending of federal Medicaid dollars on abortions. States like New York fund abortion services with state Medicaid dollars. But Pennsylvania, like 26 other states, does not. NARAP Pro-Choice America gave Pennsylvania an F grade for reproductive rights, ranking it 41st out of 50.

According to a 2006 study by the Women’s Medical Fund, there were 4,500 women covered by Medicaid in the five-county Philadelphia area who wanted to terminate a pregnancy and could not afford to. Making things all the more difficult, most health-care providers do not perform abortions.

“If doctors felt more comfortable performing abortions in private offices,” says Corrigan, “if more hospitals provided abortion, if there wasn’t such a stigma around abortion, we wouldn’t see women dying.”

There is a two-tier reproductive health system in the United States, and even pro-choice politicians seem loath to upset the status quo. Rural women throughout the country lack access to abortion clinics, including women in 82 percent of Pennsylvania counties. But even in cities like Philadelphia, home to a number of clinics, cost can be an insurmountable obstacle.

”Pro-choice politicians want to talk about keeping abortion legal but don’t want to talk about restoring federal funding for abortion,” says Corrigan. “That’s part of this tragedy: we’re willing to let women die as long as our suburban mothers and daughters can get an abortion.”

Political opponents of abortion are already making use of the Philadelphia story to campaign for tighter restrictions on abortion.

In recent years, anti-abortion activists have cited the high rates of abortion among black women, calling abortion a form of “genocide” against the community. There is no small degree of irony–and cynicism–in the conservative campaign given the right’s history of blaming young and poor welfare recipients for their fertility.

And in states throughout the country, conservatives have been chipping away at reproductive rights through legislation requiring ultrasounds prior to abortions or laws recognizing “fetal pain.” On the national level, many advocates accuse Democrats of lessening their commitment to abortion rights. In many ways, policies on abortion rights have been heading in reverse.

“This was like a pre-Roe v. Wade clinic,” Schewel says. “And I think that as abortion access becomes narrower and narrower and more and more limited, there will be more and more of these types of providers.”

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  • somerschool

    I suspect there’s more to this problem than anti-choice zealots chipping away at abortion rights.  It seems to me that poor and/or minority women did not have adequate legal help AFTER they suffered an injury from this butcher.  Where were the tort lawyers on this case?  Dr. Gosnell pulled in more than a million a year from this operation, and was on the receiving end of dozens of lawsuits.  How come none of the attorneys who represented the victims had the guts to take him down?

    Abortion is now disproportionately a choice made by poor and/or minority women.  These women do NOT have adequate access to competent legal help.  No matter how much society may agree on their right to choose, many women are ambivalent of their choice, and decide to suffer an injury rather than seek redress.  That’s disturbing, because abortion is always a blind surgical procedure performed on soft tissue–and in most abortion clinics today, it is done in a “mass production,” for-profit fashion.

    You don’t have to be an anti-choice zealot to read this as a recipe for malpractice.  Leave it uninspected for 17 years (as happened here) and malpractice morphs into murder. 

    I hope Dr. Gosnell is a once-in-a-lifetime aberration, but I’ll bet his is not the only clinic in America that hasn’t been inspected.  How many other clinics have substandard procedures?  Will those actually be addressed?  We’ll know by reading the news in the next few weeks–if we hear about MORE cases of substandard care, we’ll know that the system is working again.  If we don’t hear a peep, it’s because the regulators care more about “choice” than patients’ rights.

  • churchmouse

    ” How come none of the attorneys who represented the victims had the guts to take him down?’

    Because of the kind of surgery that was performed. Would you want your daughters name all over the newspapers concerning her botched abortion? No you wouldnt. Most malpractice cases are settled out of court for this very reason. Doctors do not want to have their names rubbed in the mud and the girl does not want her name published either.

    You think this case with Gosnell is rare….it is not. There are clinics like his all over the country. Look at the stuff being posted on hare about this. The implication is that abortion should be allowed in all terms of pregnancy or this would not happen. The shock is coming from people who think abortion mills are for the most part clean, sterile up to date clinics where everyone is certifide. The truth is most abortion deaths happen because of anesthesia. Doctors who are not certifide are administering it and then when complications happen…they cant address them. Read Mark Crutchers book, LIME 5. He exposed and names thousands of actual cases and clinics that have been exposed.

    I am not shocked at this doctor at all. I have been working in this field for almost fifteen years and the things I have seen you would not believe. Gosnell is not alone…….in what he does. And most abortion clinics are not monitored by the state. They do not even match the standards set in vet clinics.

    The media, PP, NARAL…do not want this addressed, because if it was clinics would start shutting down all over the country.

     

    Judith Fetrow, a former Planned Parenthood worker, summed up this problem at a pro-life conference: “ It is extremely difficult to watch doctors lie, clinic workers cover up, and hear terrifying stories of women dragged out of clinics to die in cars on the way to the hospital without beginning to question the party line. I began to wonder if we were really caring for these women, or if we were just working for another corporation whose only interest was the bottom line. But these are questions that ones does not voice at Planned Parenthood.”

     

    “Meet the Abortion Providers III: The Promoters,” audiotape, conference held by the Pro-Life Action league, Chicago, 4/3/93

     

     

    While it is true that NAF publishes standards for the operation of abortion clinics, they openly admit that there is no way of enforcing them, even within their own membership.

    Suzanne Poppema, head of NAF’s Clinical Guidelines Committee, even admits that NAF “has no credentialing power….It’s not a board and has no enforcement power.”

    We see that the NAF willingly and intentionally does not follow its own standards.

     

    CBS did a news show (60 Minutes) about a Maryland abortion clinic that had killed two woman in botched abortions. They interviewed a woman by the name of Barbara Radford who at the time was executive director of NAF. They asked her in an unbelievable interview if she knew of the problems at the clinic. She responded that she was indeed aware of them but had decided to remain silent because, “This is the last thing we need. We had hoped that it wouldn’t get national publicity because of the political nature of all this.”

     

    In the same program 60 Minute reporter, Marilyn Viero, pointed out that even thought these laws could make clinics safer, abortion advocates fight them. That was backed up by then pro-choice State Senator Mary Boergers. She said, “There’s only so much of a willingness to try to push a group like the pro-choice movement to do what I think is the responsible thing to do because they then treat you as if you’re the enemy. We want women to make sure that women have choices when it comes to abortion services, and if you regulate it too strictly, you then deny women the access to service.”

     CBS News, 60 Minutes, 4/21/91

     

     

    On June 14, 1977, “Barbaralee had an abortion performed by John Roe 781. After the procedure, she was noted to be pale and complaining of lower abdominal cramping, so she was kept at the clinic for an additional two hours. When she was dismissed, her sister helped her, weak and bleeding, to her car, where she lay in the back seat during the trip home. Several hours later, she was found unconscious in her bedroom and was rushed to the hospital. She was pronounced death on arrival. An autopsy showed a badly torn uterus, a damaged ureter and a large amount of blood in the pelvic cavity. The face and spinal column of her fetus were embedded in a hematoma inside her uterus. A subsequent investigation noted that although vital signs taken 45 minutes after the abortion showed signs of internal hemorrhage, Barbaralee was not examined again before being discharged. She was 18 years old at the time of her death, and had been referred to  this National Abortion Federation member clinic by a local women’s group.

     

    Perry County (IL) Coroners Report 6/20/77; Chicago Tribune 8/31/77; CDC Abortion surveillance Annual Summary 1977; St. Louis Post Dispatch 6/15/79

     

    Crutcher did not use actual names. If you go to the information below the examples…you can read the entire case history.

    His book is filled with hundreds of actual cases.

    So everyone remains silent so that women will always have the option to kill their unborn children, even if the abortion itself is not safe. That’s like a police department that wants to remain silent about a rapist that was loose on a campus because they couldn’t catch him.

    Here are only two examples out of hundeds that Crutcher shares in his book.

     

     “Thirty-five year old “Sandra” had an abortion at Acme Reproductive Services (ARS)14. During the abortion, her uterus was punctured and she bled to death. Sandra left behind four children. As they had done in several other instances in which they injured women, employees of ARS 14 claimed that they were simply repairing an injury cause by the patients botched attempt at a self-induced abortion. In fact, this is a fairly common claim made by abortionists who injure their patients. Of course, this contention defies logic. First why would a women self-induce when abortion is legal? Second, even if she did, why would she go to an abortion clinic for repairs instead of an emergency room? And third, since the injured woman often traveled to the clinic from out of state, the obvious question is why a woman who injured herself trying to self induce an abortion would go out of state for help. In reality, this is simply a shabby bit of deception abortionists use to avoid responsibility for the harm they do to women.

     

    Chicago Sun Times, “Abortion Profiteers” Series 11/12/78-12/3/78 ; Illinois Death Certificate No. 614138

     

     

  • ahunt

    You think this case with Gosnell is rare….it is not.

     

    Utter horseshit. 

  • robin-marty

    “I have been working in this field for almost fifteen years and the things I have seen you would not believe. ”

    Which field exactly?

  • goatini

    “sidewalk counselor”.  

    The final action of the day comes when a car pulls up. We’ve let down our guard for the moment and the antis fling themselves at it, ala Zombieland. They are yelling, banging on the car, and pushing us. They push pamphlets into the windows. What is this woman supposed to think? Would she be dragged from the car and beaten? How could she have expected this? Why should she have to deal with it? Apparently she was just stopping by to pick up some information but she can’t leave the vehicle with this mob outside. They drive off.

  • ldan

    The fact that people are don’t speak up out of fear that their instance of poor practices will be used to shut down abortion altogether tells me something entirely different than it tells you. It tells me that if abortion were not so horribly stigmatized, so constantly in danger, people would be much more likely to step up and correct abuses.

     

    Not entirely, of course. Whenever you hear a story about a crappy doctor that managed to practice way longer than they should have, or a hospital that continued with poor practices, you hear various forms of abuse of power over people afraid for their jobs, among other things. But calving abortion off from mainstream medical practice just makes it more vulnerable to such.

     

    Do you think that banning abortion would lead to safer outcomes?

     

    Even with these issues, abortion remains safer than childbirth. Yet nobody wants to crack down on ob/gyns. hmm.

  • churchmouse

    It is a barbaric and horrible proceedure. We do not even do this to animals. This is taking an innovent human life even if it is small. It will always be stigmatized because the fact is…..it is inhumane. Things will never change. There will be those whose hearts just are not compassionate, who do not see the inhumanity in abortion and those who do and are trying to stop it.

    Abortion is not safer…you have no idea what you are talking about.

    They are doing research about the connections with abortion and a lot of different diseases….especially breast cancer and uterine cancer not to mention women who have trouble getting pregnant from multiple abortions. How about post abortion depression?

     

    I would suspect that if abortion were illegal, things would be the same as they were before. A small percent of women would always resort to extreme measures but especially today when couples live together, and single motherhood is not look down on like it used to be….LIVES WOULD BE SAVED thats for sure.  

  • churchmouse

    I have worked at crisis pregnancy centers…also with our state Right to Life. I also work with a group called Silent No More.

    We all coordinate activities…but basically we march, picket, pray at abortion mills, hand out information at fairs, colleges and universities, carnivals….community events, schools.

    I attend conventions and workshops, and have worked and met pioneers in the field…Janet Folger, Mark Crutcher.

    I have talked to thousands of people who visit our booths who really want information about fetal development. I have seen lives changed….

  • plume-assassine

    Yes, abortion IS safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. Compare the risks side by side from an objective resource! 

    “They” are doing research about abortion and connection to diseases? Um, Wow, do you have any idea how ignorant that makes you sound? The abortion/breast cancer link is a MYTH and has been debunked over and over again by scientists in cohort studies. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E03E0DD1F39F93AA35752C0A961958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1

    The abortion/uterine cancer link is an outright LIE. The abortion/depression link is a MYTH. Certainly some women will experience sadness and depression, but that’s because they were already underlying problems before abortion. Most women experience relief. “Post-Abortion Syndrome” is fake and is not recognized by ANY medical establishment; it’s not even in the DSM. And… women have trouble getting pregnant after multiple abortions…? another anti-choice LIE… cite objective sources! http://www.annals.org/content/140/8/620.full

     

    So many myths and lies from someone who CLAIMS to be on the side of science. Disgusting.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    Abortions are only safer than childbirth if you negate the existence of the unborn and ignore the fact that in an abortion, there is always at least on casuality.

  • prochoiceferret

    Abortions are only safer than childbirth if you negate the existence of the unborn and ignore the fact that in an abortion, there is always at least on casuality.

     

    This is what happens when anti-choicers attempt to argue against blindingly obvious facts: tossed word salad! With extra vinegar.

  • arekushieru

    Childbirth is only safer than abortion if you negate the existence of the female born human and ignore the fact that in childbirth someone is always harmed.

  • ldan

    We don’t even do what to animals? Abortion? I hate to tell you that much of what we do to animals is far, far less humane than abortion. Let me tell you sheep ranch stories sometime. Or, look into what most commercial chicken operations look like. I feel worse about mistreated pets than I do about fetuses simply because the pets are actually aware and in pain. If you believe that the vast majority of aborted fetuses feel pain, then you’re pretty much ignoring all that science you’re supposedly arguing with.

     

    Though telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about and turning around and barking about connections to diseases that have been debunked multiple times already is laughable.

     

    Post abortion depression? How about post-partum depression…a far more common malady? Or post-adoption depression?

     

    If abortion were illegal, quite a few women would resort to extreme measures. Even more women would be like my great-grandmother, and my grandmother…women forced to bear children because there were no choices. They didn’t much like their kids or the whole motherhood gig, and created pain and dysfunction that still affects those of their descendants around today.

     

    That sounds like such an awesome world to live in.

  • ldan

    Thank you, that has a much more appealing snark quotient than my plan to sigh and amend to ‘safer for women.’

     

    Seriously, why are their precious unborn so important that women must automatically subject themselves to the pain and danger to life and health that is pregnancy and childbirth.

     

    If we decided that men had to share in everything suffered by any woman carrying a child they helped create,  the pro-life movement would die out in less than a year. Seems only fair, if childbirth is to be forced, why shouldn’t the other half of the population also be forced to share in the pain and suffering?

  • arekushieru

    And why is harm always limited to life versus death, in their minds?  Um, hello, anyone who is stabbed but is alive, is harmed (and, I would tentatively argue, much more so than someone who lost their life, because, y’know, the dead can’t feel), too, after all…. 

    And, in extension of that logic, if they are really concerned about harm, why aren’t they all up in arms about the harm a fetus suffers through the trauma of childbirth?

  • plume-assassine

    “…in the field…”

    …as though you are referring to a legitimate academic/scientific endeavour?? *giggle*

    I didn’t know that screaming in tongues outside of medical facilities was considered “work” with “pioneers” in the “field.”

  • churchmouse

    “Precious unborn”…….what a cold way to refer to living human beings, that did not ask to be here but were conceived by a sex act.  Your disregard towards life shows your heart obviously.

     

    Only a pagan humanist would say anything remotely close to what you just said. Some hearts can always be changed…..I doubt yours is one of them.

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

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  • churchmouse

    Boy the field you make fun of is certainly making ground on a countrywide level…and has you pro-aborts scrambling to keep your head above ground.

    Look at you all here………defending and fighting to keep abortion legal.

    Why? If everyone felt the same way you did abortion would not be an issue at all. And politically is one of the top issues of our time. It is a fight between good and evil, right and wrong. And those on the side of right….will never cave in.

     

     

  • churchmouse

    That never happens…only in the sick mind of the pro-abort.

    You think a PP clinic would not have called security? That is how blind and out of touch with the reality you are.

    We have to by law stand so far from an abortion mill.

  • ldan

    And those on the side of right….will never cave in.

     

    You’re right, we won’t.

  • goatini

    whose ONLY reason to be at a reproductive health care facility is to harass, intimidate and stalk patients and staff, and to interfere with patients attempting to obtain LEGAL medical services?

    Or should I believe clinic escorts, whose ONLY reason to be there is to protect patients from the sociopathic, anti-social, disruptive behavior of cult members attempting to interfere with the civil liberties and Constitutional rights of US citizens seeking LEGAL medical services?

  • ldan

    It sounds like you feel sorry for them because they didn’t ask to be here. And yet, abortion, which lets them no longer be where they didn’t ask to be, is anathema to you? How does this make sense.

     

    I have deep respect for life. I do not place life as the absolute highest thing. There are people, real, live, walking and talking people suffering every day. Suffering is part of life, sure. But you are more concerned with a life that cannot feel, cannot suffer–while at the same time creating suffering for the person supporting it. You place their mere existence above the pain and suffering of living people who have the capacity for both.

     

    Seriously, you fetishize the fertilized egg, the blastocyst, the gill and tail bearing embryo, placing greater value on it than on the woman carrying it; and I’m cold? You insist that the only way for a woman to live if she does not want or would be endangered by pregnancy is to be celibate; and I’m cold? You feel that women must bear all of the cost for nature’s sexism simply for the crime of being born female; and I’m cold? You feel that children are a just punishment for women who have sex; and I’m cold? You have said that it’s just fine that women die trying desperately to end their pregnancies; and I’m cold?

     

    You and your ilk freeze my blood. You’re right, my heart cannot be changed to the cold-blooded thing beating in your chest.

  • goatini

    and my father’s home country remained Pagan longer than any other European country.

    Even the US Armed Services now recognize the Pagan/Wiccan faith, and provide Pagan/Wiccan headstones for fallen soldiers.

    Your disrespect for a faith far older and more historied than Christianity shows your utter lack of any kind of credibility having to do with any kind of spirituality.

    I also note that you seem to hold the “sex act” to be something evil.

    I’d say that the person here blatantly displaying a sociopathic “disregard towards life” is very obvious.

  • squirrely-girl

    …a fight between good and evil, right and wrong.

    … is artificially simplistic and limited in moral reasoning. It is also a reason the PL/AC side attracts a bunch of violent fundamentalists. 

  • squirrely-girl

    Labeling arguments as “evil” only serves to silence debate. It has become quite obvious you only post here to bait and taunt. Please troll elsewhere.

  • goatini

    is that virtually ALL repro health care facilities are like the criminal enterprise in PA, and that the ONLY difference is whether they’re reported in the news, or the mighty all-powerful Feminist Left (yeah, right, like the supposed “Liberal Media”) caused a blind eye to be turned?

    We’ll know by reading the news in the next few weeks–if we hear about MORE cases of substandard care, we’ll know that the system is working again.  If we don’t hear a peep, it’s because the regulators care more about “choice” than patients’ rights.

    A long-time anti poster on RHRC agrees with me – that this criminal enterprise was enabled from deep within the regulatory agencies themselves. This criminal doctor had access to piles of unreported CASH and mountains of NARCOTICS. The egregious enabling of this enterprise, for years and years, had to have been for PROFIT. Any detective worth his or her salt knows that to determine motive and opportunity, FOLLOW THE MONEY.

  • churchmouse

    Do you think we should kill all the people who are virtually brain dead or in comas…because they don’t know what is going on? How about people who are very mentally handicapped? Are they all less of a human being? How about short people? Because they are small are they less human?

    First of all if you are a man which your name suggests…..why are you here? You have no say in this whatsoever…you shouldnt be visable at all or have an opinion…….right?

    You see you are so ignorant you miss my points altogether. Children are a blessing and should not be killed. You think they are nothing and should be killed if the mother so wills it.

    So which position is the inhumane one? I love my body the way it was created and I take seriously the things I can do with it. Sex is wonderful

    but I believe if you have it you should take responsiblity for what might occur and in this case a pregnancy. Our bodies are so much better than the male body….

    My ilk? Oh you poor thing. If I offend people like you I am glad…because that means I have hit a nerve. What I say makes you uncomfortable, uneasy. You don’t have the truth on your side and you scramble….your semantic gymnastics means nothing to someone who knows what science says about this issue.  

    If someone is missing something its you……….I need not tell you what it is…I think you know it.

  • ahunt

    Our bodies are so much better than the male body….

     

    Words fail me.

  • churchmouse

    There are a lot of different definitions of the term pagan.

    For me its this……

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan

     

    Spirituality?…….Yes you proaborts … connect that to child sacrifice…abortion. Same thing really.

    The sex act is beautiful and so is conception and birth. I have no idea if you are a man or a woman…..I guess your a goat……no pun intended of course…

    Obviously you do not have children…never felt the child move, kick inside you…see it take its first breath. Obviously you think this would be a penalty for sex. So based on your morals…sacrifice is the answer. Do you also pray to the Gods…after sacrifices?

  • ahunt

    Could you possibly be more of an asshole? 

     

    Tell me, do you think any hypothetical sane young woman who is reading this blog AND is considering an abortion will think you are anything other than batshit?

  • plume-assassine

    Unintelligent boors are usually unaware that my screename “la plume assassine” (translated: killer quill) is in reference to the adage “the pen is mightier than the sword,” in that the pen has the ability to “kill” small-minded beliefs.

     

    It is a fight between good and evil, right and wrong. And those on the side of right….will never cave in.

    This is the kind of sick, black/white, good/evil, fundamentalist, childish thinking that leads to so much VIOLENCE against women and doctors. You are partially to blame.

  • saltyc

    Yeah, better, what is better?

    The bleeding? The cramps? the unwanted attention/state control

    Churchmouse can’t be a woman.

    By better bodies he means better to stare at and become obsessed with.

  • churchmouse

    You know you have a pro-abort when they start swearing, so do continue. LOL

    Well since 99% of you celebrate child abuse and sacrifice of children through abortion on this site……I doubt that would happen. But then she might be shocked at what I am saying…which really is not a bad thing. Plant the seed………….food for thought.

    Of course you would tell her……honey, its not really living, not human….so kill it whenever you want…take nine months to think about it…..the pain it might feel is less important than what you feel. Its all about YOU.

     

     

  • jayn

    Children are a blessing

     

    “Blessing” can be very subjective.  What one person finds a blessing, another might consider a curse.  The medications I take every day to stay functional are, for me, a blessing.  Many other people who have tried the same drugs have found them a curse.  A woman’s monthly period is viewed with relief by a woman who doesn’t want children, and with despair by a woman who does.

     

    Unless you mean ‘blessing’ in the ‘given by God’, sense, which isn’t going to fly except with people who already agree with you.  But regardless of if you’re talking about personal opinion or religious teachings, neither is a good thing to base public policy on.

     

    In short, it’s a pretty worthless argument.

  • rebellious-grrl

    I don’t know who’s worse, the mouse or the MRA wackjobs?

  • ldan

    Do you think we should kill all the people who are virtually brain dead or in comas…because they don’t know what is going on? How about people who are very mentally handicapped? Are they all less of a human being? How about short people? Because they are small are they less human?

    I said nothing about them being less human. A blastocyst is human, it just isn’t a person. All the other categories you list above are separate, born, individual people. Abortion has nothing to do with not being human. All of those other people you mention are also not expecting to hook into someone else’s body for sustenance. That isn’t something people are allowed to do, but you think fetuses should have that right when nobody else does.

     

    Since I just spotted this bit on Santorum and a relevant ethical question, I’m curious how you would answer it. Given a situation where you can save either a 2 year-old child or a petri dish with 5 embryos, which do you save? There isn’t a “I’ll save them all” option, but to make it a bit less rhetorical, which do you save first? You can’t grab them both at the same time, they’re at opposite ends of the building.

     

    First of all if you are a man which your name suggests…..why are you here? You have no say in this whatsoever…you shouldnt be visable at all or have an opinion…….right?

     

    You’d be wrong. I’m quite entirely female.

     

    You see you are so ignorant you miss my points altogether. Children are a blessing and should not be killed. You think they are nothing and should be killed if the mother so wills it.

     

    I didn’t miss your point at all, but you skipped right by mine. Wanted children are a blessing, not that this was any part of your previous post. I believe fetuses should not have the right to force women to grow them. I believe this very strongly for a variety of reasons that boil down to the fact that the actual results of the opposite opinion markedly increases the misery in the world.

     

    In the meantime you haven’t answered *any* of my points above as to why your position is inhumane, and inhumane only to women. Why is it humane to expect women to risk life and health when a condom breaks? Why is it humane to tell women that they should just suck it up and believe that children are a blessing for them even if they never wanted children or can’t afford to raise one? Why is it humane to tell women who cannot risk a pregnancy due to severe health risks that the only choice for them is a life of celibacy? Why is it humane to tell women that they must remain endure a system that makes them the gatekeepers of sex because they are the ones who will suffer for it…while men can continue on without any such restrictions?

     

    I suppose there’s an argument to be made that I’m being inhumane to fetuses, who can’t suffer. You’re being inhumane to living, breathing, suffering women. And you tell me you love women and love being one?

     

    So which position is the inhumane one? I love my body the way it was created and I take seriously the things I can do with it. Sex is wonderful

    but I believe if you have it you should take responsiblity for what might occur and in this case a pregnancy. Our bodies are so much better than the male body….

    I love my body as well. I love the strength that comes of being tasked with the awesome responsibility of life and death. And it is a responsibility. You still have not answered how an abortion is not ‘taking responsibility.’ I’m not foisting the responsibility on someone else am I? I can’t get a stand-in to go through it for me. How is abortion irresponsible?

     

    I could even say that, given the load we’re already putting on the planet, that not bringing more little consumers into the world is quite responsible. From tha framework, parents are the irresponsible ones for putting their selfish desires above the good of all people. But that’s a whole different debate with a whole different set of complexities

     

    And how the hell can anyone claim one set of bodies is ‘better’? On what criteria? That’s ridiculous. And yet, based on this ‘better’ body, you’d like to chain women to the role of incubator. No thanks.

     

    My ilk? Oh you poor thing. If I offend people like you I am glad…because that means I have hit a nerve. What I say makes you uncomfortable, uneasy. You don’t have the truth on your side and you scramble….your semantic gymnastics means nothing to someone who knows what science says about this issue.  

    If someone is missing something its you……….I need not tell you what it is…I think you know it.

    Wow, your armchair analysis is entirely off. But then you thought I was a guy too. Your condescending pity is similarly off-base.

     

    Science is not on your side. I am not engaging in mental gymnastics. I leave that to you. You are the one who has to scramble to find a way in which to justify fetuses having greater rights than than the women carrying them. You are the one who has to scramble to defend the fact that your side only considers blastocysts to be people when it’s convenient to do so in order to control women.

     

    The fact that you can’t even seem to muster the tiny bit of empathy required to imagine the horror of having something growing inside of you when you don’t want it there, that you can’t grasp the absolute visceral terror involved, is mind-boggling.  Making abortion illegal would not reduce this terror and horror, it would simply mean that the desperate, living, women experiencing it would be pushed to more extreme ends to escape it. That life growing inside is wonderful for the woman who wants a child, and a horrorshow for the one who doesn’t. You seem to believe that somehow, a woman who doesn’t want a baby should be forced through that horrorshow. That is sick.

  • ahunt

    Yah Churchmouse…since you’ve gone from cheap troll entertainment to mildly annoying incoherant babbler…I figger it is okay to surrender to my worser nature, and indulge the voices in your head a bit.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Do you also pray to the Gods…after sacrifices?

    Your post shows how very little you know about wicca or paganism. Your stupidity is appalling. I suppose you would be in favor of bringing the witch trials back.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm

  • goatini

    that so-called Christians call “rebellious women”… is WITCH.

  • rebellious-grrl

    goatini is it Lithuania? I consider myself a pagan or wiccian and been intrigued by the history Lithuanians resistance to conversion to Christianity. Found a link the Lithuanian Ethnic Church Romuva USA/Canada.

    http://www.romuva.info/American-Lithuanian-Paganism-Today.php

    “Baltic Religion” identifies the way of life, world concept and world view that were common to all Baltic nations/tribes: Lithuanians, Latvians, Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, Zemgalians, Selians, Latgalian etc. Modern Romuva is the Lithuanian expression of the Baltic Faith. The word itself means serenity, peace, harmony, tenderness and beauty. These are the most cherished of values. Romuva is a religion of life and harmony.

  • rebellious-grrl

    I’m pretty sure if we were living in the Burning Times I would have been burned at the stake by now.

  • cmarie

    (read that book too… great book)

    everybody… everybody….. likes to think that they are such a natural independent thinker that if they lived in the middle ages they would have been considered a witch and burned.

    actually in Spain many people were burned because they either were Jewish or were rumered to be Jewish… (this is why so many Jewish people immigrated to Poland after the plague…. because western Europe was just too dangerous.)  So, in these cases, persecution depended on your religion (or the religion others believed you practiced) and not on your words or behavior at all.   Oddly enough, for most other people, Spain was one of the safer places to face an accusation as, upon arrest you had the right to name any three people who held a grudge against you and (if the accusation had come from one of them) the charges were dismissed.

    Germany and Scotland were the worst places to be accused.  In 1692 New England (although most of the accused were women) the accused had another important thing in common as well… most of them were comparitivly “rich”.  Its believed that parents encouraged their children to accuse the wealthy of the town as they had the most to lose.  Once you were arrested you had to enter a plea: “Guilty” or “Innocent” (you might remember from “Three Sovreigns for Sarah” for extra emphasis a frequent plea was “I am innocent as the child unborn”.)  Regardless, once you entered a plea your property was forfeit to the crown.  Did families sacrifice female members because they could not own property?… certainly a valid question….  In the case of Giles Cory, youi’ll remember he never entered a plea.. which is why he was tortured to death instead of hanged but he protected his family’s holdings.  (Giles also put a curse on the “Sheriff of Salem Town” just before his ribcage was crushed and his heart gave out.  In the 319 years since every single person to hold the title of “Sheriff” has either died of a heart attack while in office or been driven out by blood or heart ailments…..Giles is pissed!!!!)

    Obviously, I’m off subject here .. the point is:  If your hanging around in the village of rhrealitycheck and your great claim to fame it that your “pro choice” its unlikely that you’ll attract even enough attention to get your comments collapsed and highlighted in blue, much less face much questioning, much less be put to a stake.  Now if you lived in another figurative village… like oh lets say “concerned women for America” or if your opinions were different you might have a point.   The vast majority of people killed as witches were either devout Christians or devout Jews.  Its possible that some of todays “wiccans” are decended from victims.  Its equally possible that they are decended from acccusers.  The same is true of any person of European decent.

  • cmarie

    Are you kidding?  I think our bodies are way better!

  • cc

    “Well since 99% of you celebrate child abuse and sacrifice of children through abortion on this site……”

    Ah the old “feminazis” (and Rush has how many babies?) revere abortion as a sacrament. (And if men got pregnant, it sure would be!). But nice bit of “projection” there as well as a way to demonize pro-choice women, thus providing carte blanche for the next anti-choice act of vandalism and abortion provider assassination. What we do is advocate for women’s freedom. No more, no less.

    But if abortion becomes criminalized (and it won’t) there will be “celebration” in the anti-choice crowd – a celebration of women dying from complications of “back alley” and self induced abortions. Oh, right. Dr. Nathanson (who converted to Catholicism under an Opus Dei priest) said that all those stats pertaining to the mortality rate from illegal abortions are lies.

    Some of the above posters mentioned the persecution of witches and religious groups by the Inquisition which was run by the Catholic Church. I suspect that folks like “church mouse” would love to bring that back. I know that they want to bring us back to the “good old days” of women dying and that’s nothing to celebrate!

     

  • cmarie

    But if abortion becomes criminalized (and it won’t) there will be “celebration” in the anti-choice crowd – a celebration of women dying from complications of “back alley” and self induced abortions.

    I suspect that folks like “church mouse” would love to bring that back. I know that they want to bring us back to the “good old days” of women dying and that’s nothing to celebrate!

    Less than two weeks since the Arizona shooting and all that resolve about “respectful debate” out the window.  A little map with a few crosshairs pales in comparison to those accusations!  Hope some mentally ill person doesn’t read your comments and go nuts on the right CC.

  • prochoiceferret

    Are you kidding?  I think our bodies are way better!

     

    Well, if you enjoy the whole having-my-period thing, there’s a lot of women out there who would be happy to let you have their “flow.”

     

    (I hope you enjoy blowing your nose when it’s bleeding, because that’s kind of what it would be like.)

  • ldan

    Er, why? I think they’re *different*. But how do you evaluate better?

     

    I really like being in mine and all. But that doesn’t make it an inherently better body. I’m pretty sure the cis guys in my life are perfectly happy with their bodies and wouldn’t want to switch either.

  • prochoiceferret

    Er, why? I think they’re *different*. But how do you evaluate better?

     

    Probably the whole multiple-orgasm thing, although it’s kind of subjective whether or not that balances out the whole cramps-and-hot-flashes-and-bleeding-like-a-stuck-pig-for-days-on-end thing. Not to mention the fact that for as much as women’s bodies seem to be in demand, precious few folks seem to care about making the selfsame woman comfortable, let alone orgasmic, let alone multiple-mind-shatteringly-orgasmic. Unless it’s to brag about it to others.

  • crowepps

    A great many of the ‘witches’ were midwives, accused of being ‘satanic’ or ‘pagan’ because they used herbs to try to alleviate the problems of childbirth, actions which the Church disapproved since they interferred with ‘Eve’s curse’.

     

    Must say, though, that the underlying THEME is exactly the same whether it’s ‘kill the witches’, ‘kill the heretics’, ‘kill the apostates’, ‘kill the ill/mad person’ or ‘kill the foreigner’– the belief that the world is enormously threatening and that the only protection against doom is for society/church/authorities to perform elaborate rituals like enforcing only two paradigms of behavior for ‘the little people’, one for men and one for women.  The ‘elite’, whether it’s The Elders, Town Leaders, The Aristocracy, or Religious Authorities then educates, cultivates, prunes, chops and discards ‘weeds’ to get everyone into the straitjackets of those two rigid, tightly constricted roles.  Everyone MUST look, think and behave exactly right and exactly the same.  Those who won’t conform are punished, driven away or killed.

  • princess-rot

    I find churchmouse’s inanity rather hilarious. I’m waiting for the inevitable Godwin… we’ve already had claims that “proaborts” sacrafice fetuses to dark heathen gods. Now s/he’s claiming to have psychic powers and just knows all about our personal lives and the details thereof, because there (apparently) is no such thing as a woman who is pro-choice and has/wants children. Better not mention that there are women who post here who are already mothers and have had abortions… it’ll blow circuits.

  • goatini

    We have a winner!  My Dad was from Lithuania and came to the US as a DP after WWII.  I’m an avid reader of Marija Gimbutas’ books on archeological studies of goddess cultures in Eastern Europe, and have always been interested in the Earth Religions.  

  • goatini

    I’m (probably) one of the only women who WASN’T happy to have my periods disappear at menopause.  I loved that physical connection with the universe with the waxing and waning moon cycles, and the unspoken communication with other women through the hormones and cycles of those close to me.  

  • arekushieru

    And I notice you fail to address churchmouse’s posts with the same kind of concern.  You anti-choicers really ARE illogical, aren’t you?

    Btw, was CC making any sort of directive towards churchmouse?  No.  Was churchmouse making a directive towards anyone on here?  Yes.

    Go ‘nuts’?  Such ableist language.

  • arekushieru

    Cool!  O/T but interesting sidenote:  Druidism is now recognized in Canada.  :)

  • arekushieru

    A great many of the ‘witches’ were midwives, accused of being ‘satanic’ or ‘pagan’ because they used herbs to try to alleviate the problems of childbirth, actions which the Church disapproved since they interferred with ‘Eve’s curse’.

    Which leads one to think that abortion would have brought down even MORE disapproval from the Church.  Especially if it was as visible a ‘rebellion’ as these herb-using midwives.

  • ldan

    False equivalence much?

     

    Let’s see, map with crosshairs (I notice how you feel the need to trivialize that with the adjective little, too).

     

    vs.

     

    A statement that the anti-choice crowd would celebrate a return to the days of dying from botched abortions. There’s no language of violence in there with symbolic equivalence to crosshairs.

     

    It’s a fairly tame statement compared to the ones churchmouse has been throwing around about how monstrous and heartless her opposition is, and far less childish than her feeble attempts to make fun of posters’ names.

  • arekushieru

    You’d be wrong. I’m quite entirely female.

    And churchmouse would have understood that, if she/he had, indeed, read any of your earlier posts.  I have a cousin who was going to name her daughter Royce Ross, which tells you that it is wrong to assume anything based on names, esPECially screen names.

    The fact that you can’t even seem to muster the tiny bit of empathy required to imagine the horror of having something growing inside of you when you don’t want it there, that you can’t grasp the absolute visceral terror involved, is mind-boggling.  Making abortion illegal would not reduce this terror and horror, it would simply mean that the desperate, living, women experiencing it would be pushed to more extreme ends to escape it. That life growing inside is wonderful for the woman who wants a child, and a horrorshow for the one who doesn’t. You seem to believe that somehow, a woman who doesn’t want a baby should be forced through that horrorshow. That is sick.

    Oh, I so totally, 100% agree with what you’ve stated, there!  As I’ve explained on a number of threads, already, in general and to specific posters, to me pregnancy would be like a parasite growing inside me, the only difference being that it would be the same species as myself.  And I actually find that even more repugnant.  >>  <<

  • crowepps

    Certainly the line was very blurry — a midwife might be giving someone an herb meant to prevent threatened problems or might be giving someone an herb that would create problems, so OBVIOUSLY the moral thing to do was keep  pregnant women from getting any prenatal care at all.

     

    There certainly are many, MANY sites on the internet which have information about how to use herbs to induce an abortion, and those herbs are available for purchase there as well.  I suppose it would possible to remove RU-486 from the pharmacy and have it available only through the local drug dealer, but how are we going to keep girls from getting their hands on Vitamin C?

    http://www.sisterzeus.com/vit_c_ab.html

  • therealistmom

    We DO abort animals. Ask any vet, many animals that come in to be spayed are already pregnant and the owners want to be responsible and not bring more unwanted puppies or kittens into the world. There are also shots which can be given should an animal be bred and it was not intended to be, shortly after the mating happens.

    In horses, an embryo can be “pinched off” the side of the uterus manually at an early stage, a common procedure if there is more than one embyro present or if the mare is unintentionally pregnant.

    I’m sure ending pregnancies in animals is quite common.

    Then again, a lot of anti-choicers view women as brood mares anyway.

  • crowepps

    Was churchmouse making a directive towards anyone on here? 

    Who appointed churchmouse the supervisor of anyone on here?

    Go ‘nuts’?  Such ableist language.

    How is the expression “nuts” ableist?  I thought it was sexist.  Or maybe – squirrel abuse?

  • purplemistydez

    I’m looking toward the day I don’t have any more periods.  It’s usually a week of nausea, cramps, bloating, and headaches besides the blood gushing.  I have to take birth control to help regulate it or else it will last for almost 2 weeks. 

  • therealistmom

    I had two abortions when I was a teenager and now I have three kids by choice. (Better get under that tarp for when the mouse’s head goes ‘splodey)

  • arekushieru

    Who appointed churchmouse the supervisor of anyone on here?

    Umm, no one, that’s why I’m commenting on it…?

    How is the expression “nuts” ableist?  I thought it was sexist.  Or maybe – squirrel abuse?

    The context in which cmarie used it implied someone who was mentally ill would go ‘nuts’ on the right.  ‘Nuts’ has long been an ableist term to describe someone who is mentally insane or ill.

  • prochoiceferret

    Oh, I so totally, 100% agree with what you’ve stated, there!  As I’ve explained on a number of threads, already, in general and to specific posters, to me pregnancy would be like a parasite growing inside me, the only difference being that it would be the same species as myself.  And I actually find that even more repugnant.

     

    So unwanted pregnancy is kind of like an early-80s David Cronenberg film.

     

    (Whereas wanted pregnancy is more like a Rob Schneider movie… it’s sort of funny, and may be interesting the first time you see it. But then it gets on your nerves, the climax is painful to watch, and then you’re really glad it’s over.)

  • arekushieru

    Yomank.  I just snorted all over it.

  • ldan

    Ok, that part can rock. Except that it’s a relatively small number of women who have figured out how to enjoy that part.

     

    But I still haven’t met many guys interested in trading because of that. (Even the trans folks…I don’t think I’ve ever heard “multiple orgasms” given as a reason for transitioning.)

  • ldan

    I’m trying really hard not to annoy my coworker with giggles.

     

    Every time I think of women trapped into continuing a pregnancy they don’t want, the Aliens chestburster scene comes to mind.  So the movie references are speaking to me despite my general movie illiteracy.

  • arekushieru

    It certainly wouldn’t be my reason for transitioning.  I’m just not that into that whole orgasmic thing, whether multiple or singular, full stop.  (Tmfi?  Oh, well….)

    But, then, there are those who aren’t interested in transitioning even IF that seemed like a plausible reason to someone. 

  • arekushieru

    my screename “la plume assassine” (translated: killer quill) is in reference to the adage “the pen is mightier than the sword,” in that the pen has the ability to “kill” small-minded beliefs.

    I kinda thought so, LPA! Glad to know that I’m not lumped in with one of those ‘unintelligent boors’, then.  :P

  • crowepps

    While I would certainly agree that people should not be disliked or discriminated against in ‘real life’ because they have a mental illness, I cannot agree that it is ‘discriminatory’ to discount and ignore their OPINIONS on policy positions on the internet.

     

    Certainly there may be mental health issues underlying those bizarre posts where someone comes on here and melts down because they just can’t STAND the fact that there are people who disagree with them, and posts a bunch of drivel about “I just can’t BELIEVE you people would admit”, blah, blah, blah, but in my opinion it’s hard to tell which ones are Obsessive ‘nuts’ and which ones are just obnoxious ‘nuts’.   Or, for that matter, which one is actually a 15-year old Christian home schooling boy or 60 year old man making up the kind of pearl clutching, sentimental drivel they believe appropriate to the female thought process.

     

    In discussing morality and making laws, disconnected from reality is NOT “as good as” sane and their opinions do NOT deserve the same consideration as those that are reality-based.  It is NOT helpful in establishing policy to attempt to incorporate the beliefs of someone who believes the problem is aliens or the Big Pharma Conspiracy or God being mad about Insufficient Female Purity.  People who make policy decisions should have a minimal ability to incorporate at least some reality into their worldview.  Even if the Tea Party will elect those who can’t.

  • arekushieru

    Which is all well and good and nothing I disagree with, since that wasn’t my contention in the first place.  My contention was that labelling someone who is mentally ill as ‘nuts’, full stop, is ableist language.

  • colleen

    everybody… everybody….. likes to think that they are such a natural independent thinker that if they lived in the middle ages they would have been considered a witch and burned.

    Do they just?The Catholic church didn’t engage in the wholesale slaughter of actual born ‘persons’ because those people  were “natural independent thinkers”. They tortured and murdered actual born persons, mostly women , for the crime of heresy (heresy = An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma.)

    There have been many Inquisitions. The ‘pro-life’ movement is just the latest one. From where I sit it looks like plenty of folks want to do the burning, the shooting, the denial of life saving medical care and so on.

  • goatini

    Well, that explains a lot about Nathanson.

     

    I gotta say, these latter-day RCC converts are 1000x more dogmatic and willfully ignorant (or should I say, in denial) than any nun I ever knew in my devout years.  I blame Wojtyła and his enablers.  

     

  • crowepps

    Obviously I must be having a nitpicky day, but actually the post did not label someone who is mentally ill as “nuts” full stop, but INSTEAD used the word as an ADVERB modifying the verb ‘go’ in the phrase “go nuts on the right” which I assumed meant ‘act crazy LIKE a mentally ill person’ rather than ‘BE mentally ill’.

     

    Now it’s true that “go nuts” is an expression with a number of interpretations, as is also true of the similar phrases “go postal” and “went into road rage”, neither of which is different except in degree from my favorite, “have a hissyfit and fall in it”.

     

    The problem as I see it is that the Right is inconsistent in their labeling.  They can’t give up their reflexive habit of identifying every Muslim who so much as lets the meter run out as a terrorist but they resist mightly using that label for the various people ‘expressing their Second Amendment Rights’ by shooting up the countryside (and their neighbors).  If they would stop minimizing those incidents by diagnosing each man telepathically as having “mental issues” perhaps the phrase would fall out of fashion.

  • churchmouse

    This comment has been removed.

     

    RH Reality Check is an unapologetically pro-choice publication, and the majority of our readers supports the struggle for sexual and reproductive rights, health, and justice.  We realize that some of our readers and commenters do not support these goals.  We embrace and encourage vigorous debate and civil discourse on the site and welcome comments representing diverse points of view that are evidence-based and reasonably engage the debate.  We reserve the right to delete, without further explanation, comments that misrepresent evidence or promote misinformation, that threaten or demean others, undermine the civility of discussion or seek to divert conversation from the topic of the original article.  We reserve the right to ban users who repeatedly abuse commenting privileges.

     

    RH Reality Check staff

  • churchmouse

    Why don’t you hunt, (pun intended) for the truth. Cause your views are worser.

     

  • churchmouse

    Oh please………I have been called names every since I started posting on this site. Pro-aborts usually resort to names when their backs are against the wall and when they can’t address the issue.

    I would say over half that I have seen on here state that the fetus at conception is not even human. Now I mean how do you debate people who are just so ignorant? Any scienctist in the world will tell you that from conception it is human and alive. So I have to find some humor in all this or I would lose my sanity. Then there are those that don’t think the abortionist has to kill anything. For them the fetus is just gently removed and sent on its merry way. They see no violence in this…because another thing I have observed is that most pro-aborts on here are pro-late term abortions as well. I have never met a more violent group as the group on here.

    Yes, I do not mince words and I lay it out there. Sometimes the truth hurts.

  • churchmouse

    Just curious……..do you think Catholics are the only ones who are pro-life?

  • arekushieru

    When I used the term ‘full stop’, I wasn’t referring to a mentally insane person being called ‘nuts’ over a ‘normal’ person being compared to a mentally insane person.  I was referring to the fact that the term ‘nuts’ wasn’t being used in order to determine who should and does make policy, as your previous post seemed to imply. 

    But, whether the term is used in a comparison or as a pejorative I still consider it an ableist term.

  • ahunt

    You see you show your ignorance on the topic…(most on here do as well you are in good company) because you have no clue as to what really went on pre-Roe. Even PP states that most abortion were done by qualified doctors in clinics and that the death rate was low. Nathanson said that he lied under oath during the Roe hearings as to how many woman died.

     

    Antibiotics. Look them up.

     

    http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=283931

     

    “The first month of my internship was spent on Ward 41, the septic obstetrics ward. Yes, it’s hard to believe now, but in those days, they had one ward dedicated exclusively to septic complications of pregnancy.

    About 90% of the patients were there with complications of septic abortion. The ward had about 40 beds, in addition to extra beds which lined the halls. Each day we admitted between 10-30 septic abortion patients. We had about one death a month, usually from septic shock associated with hemorrhage.

    I will never forget the 17-year-old girl lying on a stretcher with 6 feet of small bowel protruding from her vagina. She survived.

    I will never forget the jaundiced woman in liver and kidney failure, in septic shock, with very severe anemia, whose life we were unable to save.

    Today, in Canada and the U.S., septic shock from illegal abortion is virtually never seen. Like smallpox, it is a “disappeared disease.”

  • arekushieru

    What do you expect when you come on here insulting people alREADy by calling them ‘ProAborts’?  Or when you immediately demonize women by calling THEM names for having abortions?  Hmmm…?  Quite the ‘interesting’ standard you have, there.  Expecting us to be evil, salivating, child-killers on the one hand, yet expecting us to not react when we have been insulted on the other.  Kinda like your Pro-Child-As-Punishment policy, on the one hand, then your How-dare-you-think-of-a-child-as-punishment policy on the other hand.  (Thanks to goatini for this.)

    I have NOT seen ANYone on here state that the fetus is not human or alive at conception.  I HAVE, however, seen them state that a fetus is NOT a human being (person), WHICH ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS.   

    The procedures that faCILitate abortion DO kill the fetus.  HowEVER, abortion, itself, does NOT kill anything.  Again, two totally different things, which we have mentioned, OVER and OVER.

    You must live in a cave, because the majority of anti-choicers promote war, the death penalty, no life-saving health care, the murder of indisPUTable human beings, etc…. Or… need I go on?

    Yeah, Satan’s truth is unpalatable to those who haven’t been deceived by him. 

  • prochoiceferret

    We will continue to work to overturn Roe…….we will never, ever quit…and that just gravels you guys to no end.

     

    No, not really. There are still a few folks out there trying to overturn the Emancipation Proclamation and the 19th Amendment, after all.

     

    Hey, at least it gives them something to do.

  • plume-assassine

    (SIGH. I don’t know why I even bother trying to talk to this person any more when they can’t even respond!)

     

    1. Howcome you keep spamming these forums without responding to the specific points in my comments to you? What are you running from?

     

    2.

     

     as to how many woman died… It simply is not true and a scare tactic pro-aborts use in defense of their position.

    Wrong. The number of women who died or were injured from illegal abortion was a catastrophe. Numbers have been disputed because not all deaths/injuries from abortion were reported. This is the same problem with keeping stats on victims of rape — it often goes unreported.

    One stark indication of the prevalence of illegal abortion was the death toll. In 1930, abortion was listed as the official cause of death for almost 2,700 women—nearly one-fifth (18%) of maternal deaths recorded in that year. The death toll had declined to just under 1,700 by 1940, and to just over 300 by 1950 (most likely because of the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, which permitted more effective treatment of the infections that frequently developed after illegal abortion). By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200, but illegal abortion still accounted for 17% of all deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth that year. And these are just the number that were officially reported; the actual number was likely much higher.

    Poor women and their families were disproportionately impacted. A study of low-income women in New York City in the 1960s found that almost one in 10 (8%) had ever attempted to terminate a pregnancy by illegal abortion; almost four in 10 (38%) said that a friend, relative or acquaintance had attempted to obtain an abortion. Of the low-income women in that study who said they had had an abortion, eight in 10 (77%) said that they had attempted a self-induced procedure, with only 2% saying that a physician had been involved in any way.

    These women paid a steep price for illegal procedures. In 1962 alone, nearly 1,600 women were admitted to Harlem Hospital Center in New York City for incomplete abortions, which was one abortion-related hospital admission for every 42 deliveries at that hospital that year. In 1968, the University of Southern California Los Angeles County Medical Center, another large public facility serving primarily indigent patients, admitted 701 women with septic abortions, one admission for every 14 deliveries.

    A clear racial disparity is evident in the data of mortality because of illegal abortion: In New York City in the early 1960s, one in four childbirth-related deaths among white women was due to abortion; in comparison, abortion accounted for one in two childbirth-related deaths among nonwhite and Puerto Rican women.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html

    Further reading: http://www.amberdragonflypress.com/march/pro-choice.htm#4

    So, let me ask you this, knowing that their was a death toll before legal abortion (even though the numbers have been disputed) and that the chance of injury and infertility were even higher, are you saying that such injuries and deaths don’t matter, because preserving embryonic and fetal life is more important than preserving the safety and life of women? Does it matter that illegal abortion will maim and injure women?

     

    3. We have already established that embryos/fetuses are human life. But, since a. they can only survive inside of a person’s body and must use that person’s body for sustenance, b. do not have the capacity for consciousness/awareness or ability to reflect on their existence or interact with anyone, c. do not have rights or property or a birth certificate, and d. do not feel pain or suffering like a woman, then what makes them “persons” like you and I?

     

    4. I think there is more of a case to classify your position as the violent position (forced pregnancy and forced birth). Violence is the expression of physical force against one or more people, compelling action against one’s will on pain of being hurt. Embryos and fetuses cannot hurt or feel pain. Women can. It is horrible to imagine women with unwanted pregnancies threatened with the impending pain of birth, and possible death. Imagine the physical and psychological repurcussions if Roe v. Wade was overturned. It is horrible to feel like there is something inside you that is using your body and your organs against your will, and there is nothing you can do about it, because the anti-choice zealots think that your embryo’s continued growth is more important than your happiness or your life. The feeling is like that of an animal caught in a trap.

     

    5. If you are here to debate, instead of spamming and yelling into a void, then prove it.

  • arekushieru

    My mother is Prochoice.  I advocate for the CHOICE she exercised when she CHOSE to have me and my sibling.  Hmm, doesn’t seem that what you believe is what we advocate for, after all.

    If we advocate for women to have the right to kill, then you advocate that women don’t have that right, while advocating that all others do have that right.  Because, if abortion is killing, non-consent to organ donation is killing.  Hypocrite.

    Forced childbirth is a barbaric, cruel and violent act against an ACTual living human being that cannot defend herself from that act.  That is one reason why I am ProCHOICE.

    And justice is prosecuting anyone who lays a hand on anyone to injure or kill even if they are defending the truth. So those that kill abortionists should pay. That does not mean however I am not glad they are go

    First off: Not a baby. 

    Can’t have it both ways, ‘sweetheart’. 

    People believe that the majority of rapes go unreported.  Why?  Because it is stigmatized.  When abortion was illegal, I’m pretty sure it was stigmatized even more than (although not as openly as) now and more than rape has ever been.  What makes you think that doctors would report those numbers, accurately, if they were involved in such a stigmatized and illegal environment?  What made abortion so different from all other stigmatized and illegal activities that made the stats for it a better measurement to rely on, than they would have been in the other circumstances…?  Hmmm…?  Yeah, thought not.

    I’ll let you in on a ‘secret’.  I’m ProChoice and Christian.  I FIRMly believe that anti-choice Christians have been deceived by Satan into believing that Jesus was a misogynist.  (Btw, if you didn’t want anyone to bring up religion when debating the issue, maybe you shouldn’t have chosen a religiously affiliated SCREENname?  Just a thought…)

    Science agrees with ProChoicers that human life started a million years ago.  It does NOT, however, agree with anti-choicers that a certain stage of life, fetuses, should be granted more rights than any other, esPECially when the latter is female.

    No, they can’t see the inhumanity of abortion.  They just can’t stand the thought that WOMEN might be human beings (persons).

     

  • plume-assassine

    *grin* No worries, I should clarify– that perfectly intelligent people may indeed be unaware of the origins of my screenname…

     

    but unintelligent boors will immediately interpret it as a “violent” screenname, when in fact it is advocating for the opposite, with the power of the written word. Corny, but hey… :)

  • ldan

    Folks have already posted documentation regarding the toll of illegal abortions. All I can add is that I hardly think we’re the violent ones when you’re ok with discounting the suffering of the women in those septic wards simply because most of them survived once they got to the hospital. 

     

    You can debate without mentioning your religion all you want. When your words speak loud an clear to your belief that women are incubators who get what they deserve if they chose to have sex at all, it’s not hard to suspect where that idea comes from. We’ve been hearing it for centuries from the religious quarter after all. And given how much you read into our screennames, it’s hard to believe you didn’t chose yours with the sort of care you think went into ours to telegraph to the world who we are.

     

    Why are women violent for killing fetuses, but fetuses are entirely innocent of the pain, suffering, and sometimes death they cause women? Why are women violent for not wanting something using their body against their will and being willing to remedy that situation? After all, the same thing happens naturally all the time. Millions of blastocysts never implant. Hundreds of thousands more miscarry in the early months with precisely the same violence as a chemical abortion.

     

    Basically, you are willing to value fetuses above women…at least women who don’t think that pregnancy is awesome. Sorry, I’m solidly on the side of actual women, who actually suffer. There is enough suffering in the world that I don’t see the need to add to it. But you do.

  • ldan

    Let’s see. You have constantly called the posters of this board ignorant, and said that they obviously don’t know what they’re talking about, despite evidence to the contrary, voluminous references, and logical dissection of your points.

     

    You have claimed to argue from science, when you wouldn’t know the actual rigors of analysis that science requires if it bit you in the butt. You tell people who have actually studied, people who know the difference between what is learned from a high school textbook, the internet, college texts, and the graduate study where you learn to pull all the rest apart and put it together again into a far less simple, more nuanced, and more correct version of the world as science can understand it, that they know nothing about science.

     

    You have constantly called the posters on this board pro-abortion despite being told numerous times that nobody is. We do not go out of our way to tell women that they *should* chose abortion. We go out of our way to make sure they have information and a choice.

     

    You have called us mean, heartless, sick, evil, cruel, monsters. You have mocked the names we go by (feebly). You have chided with false compassion “poor things,” “you’re missing something,” “I feel sorry for you.”

     

    Let’s see, you’ve insulted pagans (which again was a clue to the religion you claim not to have brought to your arguments), and claimed that we saw abortion as child sacrifice.

     

    That’s just in the threads for this article. It’s late so I’m not hunting through the others.

     

    And…*we’re* the ones being insulting? I’d say we’re giving tit for tat at worst. If you want to bring insults in here, don’t expect not to get them thrown back at you.

  • cmarie

    By “go nuts” I meant become violent; exactly like what happened in Arizona.  I really don’t think in that case the killer was motivated by political speech by the right or left but if anyone is going to argue that he was….. and that the public is really so fragile that they can’t handle these types of statements….. then self critique has to come from both sides of the political asile.  Someone mentioned that I didn’t call out churchmouse on the same thing.  You’re right.  If you believe (and again I don’t) that the public can’t handle violent analogies then graphic arguements from the right can also cause abortion clinic bombings.  But, as far as I know, churchmouse never accused anyone of being responsible for the Arizona shootings, apart from the young man himself.  That’s why my comment wasn’t really directed at her.

  • cc

    As  you say, there are some folks who are “out there.” They would like to get rid of the 17th Amendment (Direct election of US Senators), the 16th Amendment (income tax) and now the 14th Amendment because it confers birthright citizenship on children, born in the US, to those who are not citizens. But wait, the 14 Amendment is what they use to claim that fetuses are “persons” who deserve all the protection of this Amendment. Meanwhile, this Amendment is a benefit to fetuses that are birthed and I thought that they love babies and I’m so confused….

    But don’t touch that sacred 2nd Amendment which, as a cannon of the conservative faith, must be revered by anti-choicers. But guns kill people and that’s not “pro-life.” Oh, right - only fetuses and those in persistent vegetative states are worth caring about. Jill Stanek said that folks should get as upset about the “murder” of fetuses as they did about the Tuscon massacre.

    Nuff said! 

  • ldan

    But, but…the founders never thought of 3 month-old embryos as people, so that’s not how they would have interpreted the 14th when they wrote it. Right?

     

    I mean, if you want to use the ‘how the founders meant it’ as an argument that women and gay people don’t deserve the protections of the 14th, it’s hard to argue that it applies to z/b/e/fs.

  • crowepps

    The founders didn’t even know the egg or Z and B stages existed.  The existence of sperm was discovered about 50 years prior to the Revolution, and Spallanzani wouldn’t confirm their role in fertilization until four years after the Revoluntary War started.  The existence of the female egg wasn’t discovered until 1843!

     

    If we’re going to do things going by the understanding The Founders were operating under, then males have the entire responsibility since they are the ones who produce the ENTIRE offspring and therefore would ahve a duty not to be careless about where they ‘plant’ their homunculus, and since women would merely be “fields” to grow the offspring of men, what women did to ‘weed out’ unwanted growth in their “garden” wouldn’t be anybody else’s business.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Growing up Catholic and having studied the European Witch Trials in depth, I stand by my statement.

     

    I’ve challenged gender norms for most of my life, even when I was a child I rejected the little pink dresses and dolls. When I was in Catholic grade school I fought the patriarchal ideology of the priests and stood strong almost to the point of getting kicked out of school. I was a tough scrappy kid and I have scars to prove it. Being an independent middle-aged child-free woman who only recently got married I’m pretty sure I would have been an easy target for being accused of being a witch if the witch trials occurred today. Thank Goddess I live in this century, and in this time when women can be independent.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Seriously? We’ve been over and over this, abortion is not murder. I know you will ignore this. ok. You’re a troll. 

    We believe women have the right to bodily autonomy and being forced to give birth is immoral. Once again you will ignore this. I get it.

    That is why you have to resort to namecalling and bringing up religion.

    Look in the mirror churchmouse, you have been rude and insulting. If you don’t believe me take a look at your own words, but I’m sure you will ignore this.

    Most of us are aware of how hard life was for women pre-Roe. Yes women died and were maimed as a result of illegal abortion, especially poor women who couldn’t afford to go through other channels to secure an abortion.

    It is simply amazing the level of stupidity here….and what gives about religion and witches?????????

    Insulting our collective intelligence (if you missed it one of the regular pro-choice posters here is getting her Ph.D.) is not helping your case. You were the one who brought up paganism, remember?

    Only a pagan humanist would say anything remotely close to what you just said.

    I don’t know why I waste me time responding to you. It’s really a joke on me.

  • crowepps

    It’s certainly hilarious that someone who uses the handle ‘churchmouse’ would get huffy when someone brings up religion, and then, IN THE SAME POST, “resort to namecalling and bringing up religion” by accusing someone of being a “pagan humanist” like that’s a bad thing.  Wow.

  • churchmouse

    No one is to blame but the nutcase that shot and killed them. He planned it and carried it out. Murders happen everyday…but because this involved politicians it is more visible and more outrageous. We always want someone to blame. Lets blame his parents…his grandparents….his first grade teacher….his friends…..his neighbors…..the college….the internet…..the governor…..God…for what he did. This was a horrific murder no doubt about it…but not connected with the Tea party, Right wingers, Republicans (the guy was a registered Independant) or Sarah Palin. He was full of rage and hate and unfortunately carried it out against people. HE IS TO BLAME.

    You know what was horrendous that did not get much press really. The case where the two guys kidnapped the mother forced her to go to the bank to get money….while her girls were tied up and her husband was being beaten. They then raped the mother and the smallest girl and burned them alive while being tied up on their beds.

    That is horrific…..and things like that will always happen. Can we prevent it….NO. I will tell you this…had the doctor had a gun in the home he might have had a chance.

     

  • churchmouse

    Oh lighten up….people make fun of names on here all the time…especially mine…read the other threads.

    I have never debated abortion using religion… not here anyway.

    There are a lot of definitions of pagan. I told you what my def was.

    Look up the definition of churchmouse..has nothing to do with religion.

     

  • arekushieru

    Um, actually, it does.  That’s where the meaning oRIginated from.  But, I get that you probably used it because of its meaning NOT its origins.  Still, expecting people not to bring up religion beCAUSE of your name when you’ve used other people’s names against them in such a manner, is a clear sign of hypocrisy.

  • arekushieru

    I know what you meant it for.  So, my contention still stands.

    Btw, another case of false equivalence.  You weren’t accusing CC of doing the same thing that the politicians had done.  Yet, you still contend that your comment wasn’t directed at churchmouse because she WASn’t doing it?  Ummm….  I smell something, and it starts with an h.  Now, what IS that word…?

  • churchmouse

    Then don’t response quite simple.

    Hard life was before Roe…….you mean that they could not kill their babies, right?

    And killing them makes everything easier. It would be easier also if we killed everyone with a handicap and who was mentally challenged too, right?

    They are still being killed and maimed and all in the name of choice. Choice makes it all worth while.

     

     

  • arekushieru

    Uh, yeah, right back atcha, ‘sweetheart’.  You came on here to *troll*, in order to *get* a response, you got one, now why don’t *you* back off?  It really amazes me just how much more similar you are to the patriarchal henchmen that like to blame the victim with each word that comes out of your mouth.  Oh… wait… no, it doesn’t.

    *Whine* “Oh, but… but… I’m not TROLLiiiiinnng….”*Whine*  You just proved THAT, too.  *How* many times *must* you be given SCIENTIFIC evidence that fetuses are *not* babies and that abortion does *not* kill before you realize that the pseudo-science you refer to comes from *your* side *not* ours, after all?

    The CHOICE comes be*cause* someone is infringing on our rights.   Obviously. 

    And, *as* L-Dan asked you, *why* is it that a woman can be held personally responsible for injuring, maiming and killing in abortion, when a fetus cannot be held with a re*cip*rocal responsibility for injuring, maiming and killing women (es*pec*ially if it is a person as you *say* it is)?  If a woman cannot be recused of intent, then *neither* can a fetus, even *more*so if it is a *person*.   More anti-choicers defeating their own arguments…?  I think so.

    Pregnancy IS a dangerous medical condition, whether it is wanted *or* unwanted.  If you didn’t know that, you don’t know science, at *all*.  It IS the second leading cause of death in women, WORLDWIDE.

    Btw, if you believe a nine-month form of rape isn’t abominable, then why would you consider criminal rape, something with a shorter duration and lower mortality rate, from the action, it*self*, abominable?  I smell hypocrisy, again. 

  • ldan

    Let’s see, comparing women’s bodily autonomy to eugenics: charming

     

    Equating not being forced to endure pregnancy and childbirth with ‘killing their babies’: more overwrought nonsense, ok.

     

    Comparing the removal of fetuses who cannot survive other than through a physically parasitic existence with killing those with handicaps: can we say false equivalence? How long will it be before we call Godwin in this thread, hmmm?

     

    Let’s see, I’m not getting all overwrought regarding potential people. You’re actively demonizing actual people and wishing for them to suffer.  What is it that makes that worthwhile again?

  • crowepps

    You’re actively demonizing actual people and wishing for them to suffer.  What is it that makes that worthwhile again?

    The fake feeling of power that comes with being rude anonymously on the interent and the smug glow of self-righteousness?

  • ldan

    Oh good, then I don’t feel too bad for enjoying similar feelings when snarking at trolls.

     

    It’s our busy season, so the stress relief isn’t a bad thing. :p