Abortion Providers Need Your Support


Saturday, January 22nd, 2011 is the 38th anniversary of the Supreme Court’s decision in Roe v. Wade. In the past few years, a woman’s right to choose whether and when to bear a child has become increasingly threatened by federal and state laws, clinic harassment, and provider violence. Because the “right to choose” depends on many factors, RH Reality Check is publishing a series of articles on abortion providers, state laws, and other threats to women’s fundamental rights under Roe.

I began providing abortions in 1974. I never imagined that in the year 2011, I would see so many efforts to separate patients from doctors and deprive women of safe, legal health care. On the 38th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, I hope you will show your support for abortion providers and the women they serve by adding your name to the Abortion Provider’s Declaration of Rights.

In Washington and in state capitals, anti-abortion legislators are working to make insurance coverage for abortion all but impossible under health reform. They are twisting a law meant to improve the health of every American into a punishment for pregnant women and their families. And in states like Nebraska, these lawmakers are putting patients at risk with scientifically unsound restrictions on the abortion procedure.

But no matter what they do, anti-abortion lawmakers can’t change the deep connection between abortion providers and patients. I am reminded of Sheila*, whom I treated about 20 years ago. She was 23 and the mother of two. Her husband had just left her, and she didn’t have a job.

As I was beginning Sheila’s abortion, I heard a loud noise right outside the clinic. I knew Operation Rescue was around and worried about what could be happening, but I continued the procedure. They started pounding on the clinic door, and I heard the glass in the door crash. Now the Operation Rescue people were coming into the clinic. (Later I saw they had used part of a telephone pole to get through.)

Sheila was terribly frightened, as I was. When I finished the procedure, she hugged me and said, “You can’t leave us now.”

I didn’t leave her then, and I won’t now. My colleagues and our supporters will stand up for Sheila and the millions of women who depend on our care, whether we’re facing clinic harassment or restrictive legislation.

Please stand with us. Put your name on the Abortion Provider’s Declaration of Rights. So far, 1,700 people have signed—physicians, activists, nurses, students, lawyers, professors, and other supporters. They represent all 50 states. They believe abortion providers and patients should enjoy the same freedoms as all other health providers and patients, unencumbered by abortion-only policies and laws.

If you have already signed, please pass the declaration to friends. Thank you.

* The patient’s name has been changed.

Like this story? Your $10 tax-deductible contribution helps support our research, reporting, and analysis.

  • beenthere72

    Signed and shared!

  • churchmouse

    I am wondering how a doctor could ignore what medical science has to say about life in the womb? And also how one who kills human unborn children…lives with that fact on a daily basis.

     

     

  • reproductivefreedomfighter

    Children aren’t unborn.

  • prochoiceferret

    I am wondering how a doctor could ignore what medical science has to say about life in the womb?

     

    It’s very easy, when the “medical science” in question is actually “anti-choice talking points.”

     

    And also how one who kills human unborn children…lives with that fact on a daily basis.

     

    I dunno, since no one here is killing children. Abortion doctors terminate pregnancies for women who do not want to continue being pregnant. Enabling these women to have a say in their reproductive destiny feels pretty awesome.

  • crowepps

    I know you will find this really hard to believe, but doctors actually do not ignore what medical science has to say about life in the womb.  As a matter of fact, doctors and medical researchers, particularly fertility researchers, are aware of all a vast body of knowledge about reproduction that you have no idea exists.

    • They are aware that the majority of conceptions never make it to live birth but instead die naturally.
    • They are aware that a large number of conceptions are genetically flawed from the beginning and can never be a ‘person’.
    • They are aware that the process of reproduction is sloppy and biologically inaccurate, creating problems for the woman and fetus.
    • They are aware that the metabolic load of pregnancy is an enormous physical strain on the woman experiencing it.
    • They are aware that women in poverty who are malnourished are less likely to successfully complete a pregnancy and have a live birth.
    • They are aware that the development of the fetus can go tragically wrong resulting in gross physical malformations incompatible with life and that when this occurs it is a stunning blow to the woman who hoped for a healthy, live child.
    • They are aware that hundreds of different physical problems can arise in a pregnancy that put a woman’s life and health at risk, and that medically necessary abortions can minimize those risks.
    • They are aware that even with the mighty arsenal of modern medical care, women STILL die during pregnancies and during delivery.

    Being aware of those actual facts and existing in reality where they have the heavy responsibility of trying to manage the consequences of those facts, understanding that their primary purpose is providing to the pregnant woman sitting before them the care that she wants and needs to reach the outcome she desires, those doctors have no problem living with themselves.

     

    Ironically other doctors, who base their standard of care on superstition, sexist myths about ‘what women are for’ and the religious belief that when women have sex they ‘deserve’ to be punished by pregnancy have no problem living with themselves either.  Those doctors aren’t ashamed of their role in risking the lives, ruining the health or increasing the suffering of their pregnant patients because, after all, it doesn’t matter if the women suffer and die.  The whole POINT of the process is for men to prove that they can produce sons.  Women are just the necessary appliance needed to do that and why get attached to an appliance?  If it doesn’t work right, throw it away and get a new one.

  • forlife

    “The whole POINT of the process is for men to prove that they can produce sons.  Women are just the necessary appliance needed to do that and why get attached to an appliance? “

     

    Um, yeah. Most men are just dying to settle down and have kids. It is not like men use women for sex,  and when the women get pregnant the men freak out and insist she have a vacuum stuck up her vagina to kill their offspring. After all, he just wanted sex, not to pay child support. Geez, where do you live where this is not the case the vast  majority of the time????

  • plume-assassine

    Men who insist on abortion are JUST as horrible as the men who insist on childbirth. They are both anti-choice.

  • churchmouse

    You can’t even say the word kill can you?

    Abortionists goal is to kill the life inside the womb. You pro-abortion lovers use terminate because it is a softer word and it does not make you sound as bad.

    A pregnant woman walks into an abortion clinic with two lives and walks out with ONE. She hires the doctor to kill her human unborn fetus. That is what medical science says about life and that is fact.

    The doctor who wrote this blog…..kills fetuses. That is fact. His job is not done until all parts of what he killed are removed. That is fact.

    If it is living and human……..and someone takes its life…..what is that really?

    This doctor….was hired to kill. If the women going to him tried to do this on their own, they would be charged with murder. So if you hire the killing done….its legal.

  • churchmouse

    Brace yourself honey because it is a fact that human life starts at conception. Now I could post all the proof I have especially medical textbooks that doctors use…but it would take to long. The fact is the heart starts beating around 22 days…….and not long after that brain waves can be detected. The majority of fetuses aborted in this country are healthy. In less than 1% of all abortion cases does it affect the mothers health. Abortion is done for social reasons. 

    These are medical facts……not myths. You have blinders on and embrace killing the unborn so nothing will make sense to you. You want your options open and killing is one of them.

    The fact is abortion is the dark side of medicine and I doubt this doctor is well respected in the medical community. He knows what he is doing…and sooner or later if not in this life….but the next…he will realize what he has done…just like Bernard Nathanson did.

    He is a hired killer.

  • forlife

    That has nothing to do with the point. The point is that, in the real world, men are much more likely to insist that women kill their child, which is the opposite of what the OP said. Why do you think Playboy pumps so much money into abortion-rights organizations?

  • plume-assassine

    Human life started millions of years ago. A fertilized egg at conception is human, but it is not a person.

    It is medically inaccurate to say that brain waves can be detected at 22 days. Brain waves are not detected until late in the pregnancy. An embryo does not have the capacity for consciousness. Medical science also tells us that throughout pregnancy, a fetus is not conscious, and because of the hormones in its environment, it is kept in an unconscious sleep state until birth. http://www.ansirh.org/research/late-abortion/fetal-pain.php

    Oh, and most “fetuses” aborted are healthy? Most abortions in the US occur before the fetal stage. Afterward, most late-term abortions are performed when there are lethal abnormalities.

     

    1 in 3 women will have an abortion in this country. Ask yourself how many “murderers” you know personally before you start spewing hateful rhetoric about women.

  • arekushieru

    Umm, I don’t know what reply you’re reading, but it wasn’t PCF’s.  Because she OBviously said ‘killing’.  That wasn’t the word she was taking issue with, anyways.  But, I’m not surprised that an anti-choicer demonstrates their (deliberate?) lack of comprehension, yet again.

    Btw, I do take issue with the word killing.  And, guess what, it’s NOT because I don’t think a fetus is human life.  As a matter of fact, I DO think it is human life.  Abortion’s goal IS: to terminate a PREGnancy, pregnancy which is NOT the fetus, but the implanTATion of the fetAL plaCENta into the uterus.  (You anti-choicers really need to go back and redo biology 101, don’t you?)  Killing = cause of death.  Iow, if the goal of removing artificial life support was to kill someone, legal and medical experts would report it as such, meaning they would agree that removal of life support IS causing death.  They don’t.  Which means, IN OTHER WORDS, that a fetus dies due to incompatibility with life upon separation from its life support, JUST like someone on artificial life support dies due to lack of brain function when their support is removed.  IN OTHER WORDS, that means that to say that abortion is killing, places a responsibility on the woman, that NO ONE ELSE HAS, for governing the way her BODY developed the connections of vaginal intercourse, ejaculation, ovulation, fertilization and implantation between her vaginal and uterine organs. Wow, what misogyny.  But so typical, it’s unsurprising.

    If an organ recipient is human and living, and someone takes his/her life, what is that really?  By YOUR logic, it’s murder.  Hope you’ve donated all the organs you can, both as a LIVing organ donor AND otherwise, otherwise you’ve just murdered (as a reminder you probably need: BY YOUR OWN LOGIC *not* ours) an indisPUTable human being.

    The doctor was hired to remove consent to organ donation.  WHY do you anti-choicers always display this inability to think logically and laterally?  If a woman is to be denied rights simply because pregnancy is a result of sex, a connection that her body developed withOUT her will or say-so, then you are blaming HER for her bodily functions, even though, all the while, you anti-choicers protest that the fetus shouldn’t be ‘blamed’ for the way ITS body functions.  Really demonstrates where your priorities lay.  Hint (another thing, as an anti-choicer, you’ll probably need): Your first priority is NOT the woman. 

    The doctor who wrote this blog… terminates pregnancies.  That is fact.  And his job is not done until all the parts are removed, because a woman has every right to the medical privacy that everyone else has.

  • plume-assassine

    It has everything to do with the point. The point is: Who cares what men want, whether they want abortion or childbirth? — they’re not pregnant, they don’t get to decide! I don’t give a damn what Playboy supports either — it’s a publication made by men for men as a masturbatory aid… whether they give money to abortion funds or not does not matter and has nothing to do with the discussion.

  • arekushieru

    Uh, perhaps they pump so much money into abortion-rights organizations because they want women to have the ability to CHOOSE whether to terminate OR CONTINUE a pregnancy?  Just a thought….  Oyyy….

    You tell LPA that that wasn’t the point, and then you go on to prove that WAS what you were talking about?  Otherwise, how would you make a LOGical connection between anti-choice (which LPA was arguing) and pro-choice (which LPA is defending)?  You can’t.  Btw, you aren’t related to Brandon, Bei, Born, Panhandler or Nonsense are you?

    Proof for your original assertion, please.  According to the stats, MORE men coerce women into pregnancy than they coerce her into abortion.

  • ninevehuk

    An earthworm has five hearts. Does that mean that the earthworm is five times more alive than I am ? Oh well, at least I am half as alive as the two-hearted squid!

  • ahunt

    This doctor….was hired to kill. If the women going to him tried to do this on their own, they would be charged with murder.

     

    I’m not following.

  • ahunt

    “Most men?”

     

    Again, not following.

  • ahunt

    So what do you suggest we do about these men who insist on an abortion. Just wondering.

  • crowepps

    It sounds like he will make a GREAT father.

  • crowepps

    Apparently a description of the people he/she is acquainted with.

     

    This is part of that weird meme of ‘if abortion continues to be legal nobody will ever have a kid again’.  Since, you know, as soon as the Roe v Wade ruling came out in 1973 nobody had any more children.

  • princess-rot

    Very well, then. Doesn’t tell you that there is something immensely wrong with the way we view sex and female humanity, as in, women are not seen as real people at all? After all, in your example the woman is totally at the behest of whatever third party wants access to, or a say in, what she does with her ladybits.

     

    First it’s the man, presumably for sex, then the same man – who apparently lives under a rock and has never heard of contraception – demands that she have an abortion. Then along come the anti-choice brigade, who are also making demands, but one that she carry to term and go through the birth. The hypothetical woman’s wishes are not known, because they have been disregarded at every stage.

     

    The woman in your example is not only painted as faceless, agencyless and stupid, but is also implicitly mocked for not being psychic and knowing the intentions of “most” men before engaging in intercourse, whether she has reason to believe that vast generalization is true or false.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Dr. Laube, Thank you for your service to women, your compassion, your understanding, and perseverance in the face of the thuggery of the antis’ violence and intimidation. You have my support.

  • ahunt

    Dagnabit, PR…I was getting there.

     

    Add in the incredible contempt for men…and you’ve pretty much covered Forlife’s views about women and men.

  • crowepps

    Sure seems to me like it would be a good idea to just let them abort their children so their gene line would die out.  We really don’t need any MORE self-centered, selfish men too stupid to use contraception.  There seem to be enough available already.

  • reproductivefreedomfighter

    DON’T call her honey.  You wonder why no one takes you seriously?!

  • crowepps

    I took it as just an echo of my phrasing.  Still don’t take him seriously, of course, but that’s because his logic stinks.

  • ldan

    *applause*

     

    That is all.

  • ack

    You seem to be operating under the assumption that pro-choice individuals don’t know that there’s a developing human in the uterus when an abortion takes place. We do. Most of us just also think that ALL people, including (GASP!) pregnant women, have a right to decide who uses their bodily resources, how they’re used, and when they’re used. That right is nearly universal in other situations, and the fact that people are willing to deny it to pregnant women says a lot about how society feels about women in general.

     

    There is a physical, psychological, and (let’s face it) economic toll associated with pregnancy. Each pregnant person has a right to decide whether they’re willing and able to undergo the process. I trust women to make the best choices for themselves and their families. Why don’t you?

  • ahunt

    Blew by this.

     

    No, no, no…Crowepps.  In my scenario…the abortion has been heroically prevented by ForLife! I am now wondering what ForLife thinks should be done about the man who insisted on an abortion…now that he is a father.

     

    Curious minds want to know.

  • squirrely-girl

    Now I could post all the proof I have especially medical textbooks that doctors use…but it would take to long. 

    Of course you could… Hahahahahahahahahaha – oh how sweet the ramblings of small minds. Please keep telling yourself that you’re only “holding back” for the sake of time… don’t worry, we totally believe you. 

     

     

  • crowepps

    Because being able to post quotes from a textbook is “just as good” as being an actual doctor with a real medical education from a real medical school.

  • ahunt

    Because being able to post quotes from a textbook is “just as good” as being an actual doctor with a real medical education from a real medical school….who actually has to talk with, evaluate and then subsequently medically treat the people who come for medical care.

     

    (just in case it wasn’t obvious)

  • churchmouse

    I have never in twenty years of work in this field heard a more laughable statement than yours. Have you not ever picked up a medical book or magazine or taken a science class to even know that what you say is so far from the truth…it’s a joke. I mean I can’t believe it. Can’t you just say….I am pro-choice and it does not matter to me if the human life is killed I believe that a woman has the right to kill? Why do you pro-aborts run from that word kill. THE ABORTIONISTS GOAL IS TO KILL THAT WHICH IS IN THE WOMB. HIS JOB IS NOT DONE UNTIL ALL CONTENTS HAVE BEEN EMPTIED AND THE HEART HAS STOPPED. TERMINATE IS A NICE WORD FOR KILL. In this case it means ending a life already started. Most abortions take place AFTER the heart has already started. Ask the abortionist who wrote this blog if that is wrong. He will have to admit that that which he is killing is human and living.

     

    THAT MY DEAR IS FACT.

      

  • ahunt

    Sigh.  I believe that women have the right to control their reproduction, and if this means that an insensate potential life is DENIED its parasitic sustenance…oh well.

  • arekushieru

    Then why don’t YOU fly in the face of EXPERT LEGAL AND MEDICAL OPINION and tell THEM that removal of artificial life support IS killing.  They would just LAUGH in your face.  You anti-choicers just get more ridiculous with everything that comes out of your mouth.

    It is NOT about the right to kill, unLESS you are proving yourself to be the misogynist and HYPOCRITE you really are.  It is about the right to determine WHO uses one’s body and when and HOW it is used.  DUH!  But, there IS such a thing as the right to kill, anyways.  You should really learn more about laws and legal and medical opinion, next time before trying to spout off and ‘represent’ them and making yourself look even MORE ridiculous, again.

    You’re talking about the methods that faCILitate abortion and help a woman her retain her right to medical privacy.   Not surprising you want to deny her those rights as well, as the misogynist you are.

  • churchmouse

    What I meant about hiring the abortionist is this.

     

    In most states if a woman takes drugs to kill her unborn or kills it by an instrument, it is against the law and she could face prison.

    How ironic though that if she hires it done it is legal.

    In most states a certified doctor must do the killing and it is illegal if a person ends or causes pregnancy to be ended by any means other than justified medical termination or birth.

    Many states even mandate reporting pregnant women who use drugs or alcohol. Sometimes after birth these children are taken away from the mothers because they are classified as abused and neglected. How could this happen if as most prochoicers say…the unborn is not human and not a person…then they take the baby away. Absolutely morally baffling.

     

     The laws in our country are not consistent.

  • churchmouse

    ack………..I have read many comments here where posters say the unborn is NOT EVEN HUMAN. Medical science says…….the life in the womb is human. It is not cow….bird……….fish. That which is being killed is a living human being. It might be small…but that does not change DNA. Most pro-aborts do not have the guts to call it what it is. Termination….means, ending a life. Ask the doctor here how many lives are laying on the table before he starts the abortion. TWO LIVES. Ask him what he does to one of those lives.

     

    You say women have the right to decide. I assume you mean ALL WOMEN AT ANY TIME…which would include women even into later terms. Surely you would not deny them to right to,,,  “terminate” the life inside them even right up to nine months. As many said here…its not human and does not become a person until it is born. If you deny any woman like some pro-aborts do when they bring up viability….you enslave her….you said every woman has the right to abort….

     

     

     

  • arekushieru

    Um, yeah, because she could seriously injure herself.  An ordinary woman on the street is NOT a medical professional and, as such, she is impersonating one.  However, it IS very sad that anti-choice laws FORCE women into these positions.  ALso, her right to medical privacy was intruded upon.

    Because these laws are ANTI-CHOICE NOT Pro-Choice laws.  They give a fetus MORE protections than anyone born.  You’re right they’re not consistent, but not for the reasons you state they are.

    If someone kills a pregnant woman, or forcibly causes a miscarriage, the choice was made FOR her, reGARdless of whether or NOT she would have chosen abortion.  THAT is anti-choice NOT pro-choice, as well.

  • ahunt

    Ah… South Carolina. Got it.

     

    That is South Carolina. Admittedly, I’m not up on laws from all 50 states, but I’ve yet to hear of any prosecutions regarding the use of illegal abortifacient drugs outside of South Carolina. Can you enlighten us?

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    ack………..I have read many comments here where posters say the unborn is NOT EVEN HUMAN.

     

    No, you haven’t. But you’ve certainly been all too happy to misinterpret someone saying that a fetus is not a human being as though they had said it is not genetically human.

     

    Medical science says…….the life in the womb is human. It is not cow….bird……….fish. That which is being killed is a living human being. It might be small…but that does not change DNA. Most pro-aborts do not have the guts to call it what it is.

     

    Who are these “pro-aborts” you keep referring to?

     

    Termination….means, ending a life. Ask the doctor here how many lives are laying on the table before he starts the abortion. TWO LIVES. Ask him what he does to one of those lives.

     

    He removes it from its parasitic existence within the woman’s body. Kind of like removing a tapeworm, only he’s not going into that hole.

  • arekushieru

    Please quote the posts where someone said that a fetus is not human life.  Someone saying that the fetus is not a human being is enTIREly different.  SO sorry.

    TERMINATION OF A PREGNANCY.  UnLESS you are going to say the fetal plaCENta is being killed, you have NO argument.

    Again, I haven’t seen ANYone deny the fetus is human.  It is, however, NOT a person.  If a fetus is a person, hydatid molar pregnancies, parasitic twins, fetus in fetu, cells, tumours, etc… are persons.

    NO one has the right to abort.  They DO, however, have the right to CHOOSE to terminate OR CONTINUE a pregnancy.

  • ahunt

    He removes it from its parasitic existence within the woman’s body. Kind of like removing a tapeworm, only he’s not going into that hole.

     

    Snerk…

     

    Ferret…evil wit to the bone, you are. Well Done.

  • ahunt

    I assume you mean ALL WOMEN AT ANY TIME…which would include women even into later terms.

     

    Fail

     

    Surely you would not deny them to right to,,,  “terminate” the life inside them even right up to nine months.

     

    More Fail

     

    As many said here…its not human and does not become a person until it is born.

     

    Quote anyone here who claims the BZEF is not human Do it now!

     

    If you deny any woman like some pro-aborts do when they bring up viability….you enslave her….you said every woman has the right to abort….

     

    By all means, tell us all about those women who frivolously choose to abort post viability. In depth and using reliable sources .

  • prochoiceferret

    Ferret…evil wit to the bone, you are. Well Done.

     

    I have to admit, this is so much more fun than hiding car keys beneath the dresser!

  • churchmouse

    Years ago medical doctors…the best in their fields testified before Senate about what medical science says about life.

     

    Dr. Alfred Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania said, “I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….I am no more prepared to say that these early stages of development in the womb represents an incomplete human being than I would be to say that prior to the dramatic effects of puberty….is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

     

    Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris France. He is the doctor who discovered the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He says” after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion and not a metaphysical contention; it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning at conception.”

     

    Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

     

    Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive….It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

     

    Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School:  “The beginning of single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter-the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, POLITICAL or economic goals.

     

    Here are some examples of what medical textbooks have to say.

     

    HUMAN EMBRYOLOGY, by Dr. Bradley M. Patten.

     “It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermaozoan and the resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

     

    Dr. Keith Moore’s text on embryology, referring to the single-cell zygote says, “The cell results from fertilization of an oocyte by a sperm and is the beginning of a human being. He also states, “Each of us stated life as a cell called a zygote.”

    Dr. Keith Moore, the Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 2d ed. (Philadelphia, Penn)

     

    J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics (New York : McGraw Hill) In their work on biology and obstetrics, state, “The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.”

     

    Dr. Louis Fridhandler, in the medical textbook “Gametogenesis to Implantation Biology of Gestation,” vol.1, ed. N.S. Assau (New York: Academic Press) refers to fertilization as “that wondrous moment that marks the beginning of life for a new unique individual.” 

     

     Doctors, E.L. Potter and J.M Craig write in Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed. (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers) “Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition.”

     

    And I have hundreds more examples.

     

  • ldan

    Allowing to die isn’t quite the same as killing. For the vast majority of abortions, that’s basically what it is. Detaching it from life support, at which point it dies because it’s not viable without said life support.

     

    For the small percentage of post-viability abortions, you can split most of them into those done due to fetal abnormality, risk to the woman’s life/health, and women who couldn’t manage to access one earlier. These are a little more complicated than early abortions where you’re simply detaching a fetus from life support. Killing might be an appropriate word for some of these (though murder isn’t).

     

    Since the barriers continually thrown up by the anti-choice legislative brigade are a direct cause of quite a few of that last category, if that’s killing, you can blame yourselves for the women reaching the point where they’re doing something that could actually be considered killing. Bravo.

  • arekushieru

    Um, yes.  You haven’t disproven anything we’ve said.  The term human being they were using was synonymous with human life.  If they were using it to determine personhood, there is NO experimental evidence that PROVES one is a person.

    A fetus is not individual.  Meaning its component parts can be divided down further and STILL have the fetus retain its status as human life.  I do believe Drs. Patten, Fridhandler, Matthews-Roth, LeJeune, Bowes and Moore were discussing initiation and beginning, too…?

  • prochoiceferret

    And I have hundreds more examples.

     

    Good for you!

     

    But it’s all for naught, I’m afraid. Women still own their bodies, and forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term is still a violation of their human rights.

     

    Sorry if that’s an inconvenience for you….

  • ahunt

    Churchmouse…you can run…but you cannot hide.

     

    Do married women have the right to “keep their legs closed” if they are unwilling to get pregnant?

  • plume-assassine

    Exactly, everyone knows that ZBEF are “human” and “living.” Why do anti-choicers always think they are going to surprise us and blow us away with these obvious facts about human life? The problem is that non-sentient human life is NOT synonymous with personhood status. There is no medical or scientific consensus that says embryonic or fetal life must always be respected like that of a person’s life. Even if hypothetically, fertilized eggs and fetuses = “people” like you and I, “they” certainly do not have squatter’s rights to gestate in my uterus and cause me physical and psychological turmoil for 9 months against my will.

  • churchmouse

    What more do you guys want that you don’t already have? Abortion is legal today. Women can kill their babies. So?????

    Do you want abortions done in our public schools during lunch hours? Do you want no limit on the time that woman can abort?

    I mean for crying out loud….abortion is legal in America.

    As far as the laws in America on this…they say one thing and do another. If you hire the killing done its ok…you try to damage the fetus…end the life on your own and you might be facing prosecution and fines. If a murderer kills a pregnant woman……its two sentences not one. Should a woman have a child and the hospital find out through blood tests that the baby has drugs in its system…they can turn the baby over to authorities.

    Yes if a pregnant woman is killed or forcibly miscarries….the choice was made to hurt her not the baby. The person might not know she was even pregnant. The pro-choice side and the law says that the fetus does not have personhood, really that it does not exist and have rights. How can you punish someone for killing something that the law does not believe exists? LOL

     

  • churchmouse

    Dr. Laube has blood on his hands and he knows it. There will be justice…if not in this life there will be in the next.

    About running and hiding…….I am here debating what is really a room full of people who love child abuse at its finest. People that have no moral consciences or compassion for human living babies. People who believe sacrificing a life to solve a problem is the right thing to do. God only knows what other things you people condone.

    Like rebellious grrl…….who thinks I hold the violent position…who herself thinks that tearing apart an already living fetus with a beating heart in the womb is noble, a right to be celebrated. LOL

     

    I gave an example where medical science and what it says about life was presented to the Senate by qualified medical doctors in their fields. And of course the blind laugh at the information without a thought about it. I gave several examples that appear in the medical textbooks……not good enough.

     That says a lot about you people who don’t care about the facts and put your own opinions above everything else.

    People here who think late term abortion…..is nothing. There will be justice…that I know. Evil never wins in the end.

     

    The truth means nothing to some people. Moral relativists just make up the rules as they go along…no truth, no right or wrong….all in the eye of the beholder. For them its a crap shoot……and in this case, the unborn is sacrificed to their delight.

     

  • plume-assassine

    Dr. Laube is a hero for providing a much-needed service to women. Women have been using contraception and abortion for THOUSANDS of years and it’s not going to stop because of your twisted views about women, sex, and morality.

     

    I am here debating

    Debating?! HA! You are totally incapable of responding to any of the posts in which I have debunked your pseudoscience myths and lies. I have supplied links and analyses of your BS but it all goes over your head. All you rely on is hyper-emotionalism, hyperbole, and spewing the same old talking points. You don’t grasp rational or logical debate — you copy and paste things that you don’t even understand, and when we analyze it for you, you’re still left grasping in the dark!

     

    what is really a room full of people who love child abuse at its finest

    You don’t care about children OR women! You talk about life, but you are only concerned with embryonic/fetal life and nothing more. You want to force women to carry unwanted pregnancies like we are CHATTEL, and finally when there is a CHILD in the picture, you don’t give a damn about their fate! The truth is that forced birth is RAPE, and you condone it. Give me one ounce of proof that you care about real child abuse or domestic violence. Go on, I’m waiting.

     

     I gave several examples that appear in the medical textbooks……not good enough

    I, and many other posters, have analyzed that information for you and explained to you that “human life” is NOT synonymous with the unscientific concept of “personhood.”

     

    There will be justice…that I know. Evil never wins in the end.

    The anti-choice version of “justice” (good/evil, black/white) is a childish version of morality that has been nothing but hideous violence perpetrated against born, living, breathing, thinking people. Women and doctors. And you continue to fantasize about violence in an imaginary afterlife! That says a lot about you and your sick version of morality.

  • churchmouse

    Yes they should. And if they do not want to have a baby they should not have sex or get sterilized.

    What is insensate and potential at eight and nine months in the womb?

    Do you even know how ridiculous your comment is?

    Insensate means….

    1. Lacking sensation or awareness; inanimate.
    2. Unconscious.

    You are telling me that the unborn in the womb late into the second and third term lacks sensation and is not aware of that which is around him/her?

    LMAO

    I mean have you ever studied fetal development at all? LOL

    Dumb question…….of course you haven’t.

    Viability means nothing to you people. Here is a baby born at 21 weeks. Now if it was Fox News you probably would dismiss it as a propoganda piece but this is ABC News reporting a case that was true.   

    http://newsbusters.org/node/10954

    Twenty one weeks…….that is just over five months….incredible. My niece was born at 22 1/2 weeks and lived to tell about it. Her picture was featured on a Red Cross Calendar. She had hundreds of transfusions. She just finished her first year of college…perfectly healthy.

    Your position is monsterous and barbaric….you think someone should have had the right to kill both these kids.

     

     

     

  • churchmouse

    let me inform you to what an abortion is. It is killing that which is living in the womb. No abortionist would be needed if it were not alive.

     

     The abortionists job is not done until the fetus is dead. He is the one hired for that job. This is premeditated killing. Take off your blinders and at least have the guts to call it as it is. THE ABORTIONIST KILLS THE FETUS…and removed it from the womans womb. THIS IS ABORTION.

    When Roe passed…….killing was legal. Before Roe abortion was illegal for that very same reason….it was killing.

    I mean what is so hard for you to grasp. I have never seen so many dumb pro-aborts in my life….

  • churchmouse

    An abortionist does not allow it to die. He kills it.

    You are so ignorant your almost not worth talking too.

    An surgical abortion is done my an abortionist who uses utensils to get the job

     done.

    Here read this…educate yourself or at least try too.

    http://abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_18.asp

     

    Knives, needles, suctions, scapels are used. Also the doctor might poison the baby with a salt solution that goes into the fluid..the baby ingests it and literally chokes.

    And you condone them all…………..you are a monster .

  • ahunt

    Well Gee, Churchmouse, the utensils are rapidly becoming a thing of the past, as pharmicological advances render them obsolete.

     

    I hope this makes you feel better, Cupcake.

  • rebellious-grrl

    The Abortion Pill: Medical Abortion with Mifepristone and Misoprostol
    Medical Abortion (brand name Mifeprex) is a form of early abortion caused by the combination of two medications, mifepristone and misoprostol that is an option for women who are 8 weeks pregnant or less. Also known as RU486 or medication abortion.

    During the first appointment at the clinic you receive the mifepristone pill to take orally. Then 24 to 72 hours later, in the privacy of your own home, you take the the second medication, misoprostol. Misoprostol causes contractions resulting in a miscarriage. When used in combination, mifepristone and misoprostol are 95-97% effective within two weeks. Mifepristone and misoprostol are FDA approved.

    http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/medical-ab.htm

  • squirrely-girl

    “Knives, needles, suctions, scapels [sic]” are used in many surgical procedures, not just abortions. Are you opposed to all of those other procedures as well? Also, please go find me the abortion provider still using saline abortion as a procedure and then we can chat about salt solutions. 

  • goatini

    access to and availability of effective birth control, and easy, cheap, unhindered access to and availability of emergency birth control, and if too late, easy, cheap, unhindered access to and availability of early-term pharmaceutical abortion…

    we would be able to shut the human traffickers’ supply chain pipeline down to a trickle.

  • squirrely-girl

    I am here debating…

     

    … implies a give and take. You have repeatedly ignored my replies to any of your posts and apparently can’t or won’t engage in discourse. You’re here to force your beliefs upon others and feel some sense of accomplishment at telling pro-choicers how they’re wrong/immoral.

     

    I fail to be impressed by your “debate” skills.

  • squirrely-girl

    And if they do not want to have a baby they should not have sex or get sterilized.

    Just in case you’ve been living under a rock, plenty of other forms of birth control exist, particularly for those who don’t want a child now but would like a family eventually. 

    I mean have you ever studied fetal development at all?

    Actually, I’m in my final year of study for my PhD in Developmental Psychology… so yes, I’ve studied quite a bit of fetal development… which is why I trust women and doctors to make reasonable decisions regarding their own bodies… as opposed to random people on the Internet who seek to control others in accordance with their personal morality. 

    Viability means nothing to you people.

    I can only speak for myself, but viability means quite a bit to me. Namely, I think Roe v. Wade is the closest we’re likely to ever come to a compromise on an issue as terse as abortion. Before viability I think it’s nobody’s business except the woman and who she chooses to include. Past viability I believe we should defer to medical standards as we do with every other area of medicine. I firmly believe blanket standards help nobody. 

    Twenty one weeks…….that is just over five months….incredible.

    That is quite amazing… and rather presumptuous of you to believe that because a random fetus survived at that point (before the point in which 50% of fetuses are expected to survive) that ALL women should be forced to carry to term whether they want to or not. I think it’s also rather disingenuous to make no mention of the reason the overwhelming majority of abortions occur at this point – fetal anomaly incompatible with life and life/health of the mother. 

    My niece was born at 22 1/2 weeks and lived to tell about it… She had hundreds of transfusions.

    Congrats to your niece and family. You know why that story is so amazing? Because so few do live to tell about it. But in your little self-created world you seem to believe that people shouldn’t be able to make decisions for themselves because you have an anectdotal story about a successful pre term infant. By the way, how much did that cost and who payed for those hundreds of transfusions?  While you’ve shirked responding to any of my other posts, I would sincerely like an answer to this. Her parents? The state (i.e., me)? If it was her parents, awesome! But you have no right to expect all people to be able to afford that or for all people to desire experiencing that horror. If it was the state, frankly I’m appalled. 

     

    P.S. There are only three (3) ellipses used when indicating a pause or break in writing…

  • cc

    You really should source your material, otherwise you’re plagiarizing. Your material is taken, verbatim, from a website titled “EPM, Eternal Prospectives Ministries.” The footnoted testimony seems to be from the 1980’s.  This “testimony” is all over the anti-choice blogs. The reality is that the scientific community doesn’t presume to determine when human “life” begins and that’s why the scienfitic and medical community isn’t part of the anti-choice movement. “Hundres more examples.” Yeah, right.

  • ldan

    Someone below beat me to it. medical (vs. surgical), also known as chemical, abortion is precisely a removal of the embryo/fetus from its life support system (otherwise known as a woman).

     

    Early surgical abortions, generally involve suction, again removing the E/F from life support. Should this damage the embryo/fetus in the process, which is not guaranteed since it’s quite tiny at this point, it’s not really changing the outcome any, nor hurting it since it doesn’t have the capacity to feel anything at that point.

     

    This is that science you keep talking about but do not seem to understand. I guarantee that I am not the ignorant one in this debate when we get to the technical end of the spectrum.

  • nonsense-nonsense

    You have repeatedly ignored my replies to any of your posts and apparently can’t or won’t engage in discourse.

     

    I’ve noticed that any pro-lifer who posts has their post unceremoniously ignored and ranked a one regardless of what they type out, or what they type is taken so far out of context to the point where one has to question whether or not it was done so purposely, or they are called a troll, or they are accused of being someone else, etc. It, therefore, is ironic that any pro-choicer here would assert that a pro-lifer ignores the posts of others when the pro-lifer goes through rather large lengths to make a rational post. In all honesty, your post just oozes an unseemly amount of irony.

  • harry834

    that this site lets anti-choice commenters speak AND allows for the default setting to have them condensed to be unseen unless someone wants to see them, which is an easy click.

    They should be there, but don’t need to be seen all the time. Glad we have a choice!

  • colleen

    Geez, where do you live where this is not the case the vast  majority of the time????

    It’s certainly the case in conservative circles. Look at Randall Terry and Newt Gingrich. Look at the unspeakably vile Rush Limbaugh or most elected ‘pro-life’ men from both parties. All of them are dogs. Every single one. I won’t even mention the sexual proclivities of your clergy.

    Conservative men believe that the ‘human life’ that is female (Sadly this often includes female children) is good for three things: Masturbatory aids, gestation devices and a source of cheap or free labor. Valuing us as gestation devices is not at all impressive. It’s sick

  • squirrely-girl

    I’ve posed rather specific questions to specific individuals that have repeatedly gone unanswered. In other words, I’ve taken the time to read all of those posts you claim are “unceremoniously ignored and ranked a one regardless of what they type out” and offered my perspectives as well as attempted to tease out specific perspectives of the posters in question. 

     

    Your rather general snark is quite irrelevant to my post. 

  • churchmouse

    I am FORCING PEOPLE.

    How am I doing that? LOL

  • churchmouse

    Can you beleive most of these people do not believe that the fetus is human?

    What does that tell you about the quality of debaters here on the pro-abort side.

    This site is set up to be pro-abortion.

  • churchmouse

    And that is good for those who love killing children isnt it harry?

  • purplemistydez

    Are you slow or just plain stupid?  Numerous times we have said that a fetus is human but not a human being.  If you do not know the difference then you need more help than we thought.

  • purplemistydez

    We get to vote down idiot commentors that enjoy killing women along with fetuses.

  • rebellious-grrl

    churchmouse you are not worth my time. You’ve been rude and insulting. You’ve said contradictory and hypocritical statements that make no logical sense and it’s just not worth my time to comment on.