• vivacia

    I LOVE this article!!!!  Awesome job Andrea – talking so candidly about an issue so after whispered as a secret!

  • harry834

    Good work with this article.

  • bluetigress

    Good lord, honey, that’s no way to live your life! Not to diminish the experience of rape victims, but you cannot let fear rule your life.

    I am 49 years old and have not been a rape victim. I do not even think about it when I’m out and about day or night and I live in Detroit.

    Why are women not taught courage and that they have the right to defend themselves? If you are attacked, try to kill the guy.

    Your body, your rules.

  • walt

    Very good article – while I knew that a sizeable percentage of women are raped, I had no idea that it was that high! As a man I am sickened by my fellows who take by force, guile or knock-out drugs what should be a pleasurable and loving experience for both – willing – participants. As a father of two daughters I am fearful – every single day – that they will be assaulted, and I’m at a loss as to how to go about explaining to them how to deal with it WHEN it happens, because no matter how much I hope it won’t, it most likely will. I have enrolled them in martial arts, but they don’t take it seriously even though I try to explain how important it is to be able to defend themselves, and their mother is more concerned about how much the classes cost than help to prepare them for the worst. Every time there’s a news story about a child being abducted or a woman being raped (often ending in her death) I am stressed out for days & can’t sleep.  I know things MUST change, and the change has to start with us men.

  • migas

    I think you’ve misunderstood the point of the author’s article.  No one is saying it’s a good thing for women to live in fear–the author is simply describing that for the vast majority of women, that’s ALREADY how we live our lives, because the threat of being raped is real, and if it happens to us, the likelihood we will blamed (or not believed) is also very high.  She is showing how rape culture affects us all every day, and affects the choices we make.  We are not curtailing our daily activities and living in fear for nothing; the threat is real.

    I find your false-girl-power-kick-their-ass attitude really unhelpful, because you are essentially saying that anyone who gets raped just didn’t fight hard enough.  This is a form of victim blaming.  Some people fight their attackers.  Some don’t, because their instincts for self-preservation take over, and their body or brain decides that fighting back would be a bad idea.  You shouldn’t criticize the choices others make during (or after) their rape, especially since you haven’t experienced it and don’t know how you would react.

    If you haven’t, I suggest checking out this epic blog post on the subject: http://bit.ly/aaCvLj  There are several commenters that say essentially the same thing as you: “that’s no way to live your life!”  EXACTLY.  That’s rape culture.  That’s what we’re all fighting against.  You’re not some kind of hero for choosing not to fear rape, you’re just lucky.  And if it does happen to you someday, I hope that no one says to you, “well, you really should have known better, walking around Detroit at night.”

  • migas

    Thanks for being an ally.  You’re right that things must change with men.  There are things you can do to fight against rape culture.  Do your male buddies ever joke about sexual assault, taking advantage of women when drunk, or say they “raped” you when they beat you at a video game?  Even “good” guys say these things.  Speak up against language like this when you hear it.  Challenge them.  This is the kind of stuff that men won’t often say in front of women, but they’ll say it in front of their buddies.

    Sadly, the chances are good that any one may be friends with a rapist, no matter how carefully we think we are choosing our friends.  By speaking out against rape culture within your group of friends, you are ensuring that if there is a rapist in there, his attitudes are not validated.

    Here’s a lengthy discussion on the topic of being a male ally: http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/lists/stuff-what-boys-can-do/

  • cpalmer9

    “I find your false-girl-power-kick-their-ass attitude really unhelpful, because you are essentially saying that anyone who gets raped just didn’t fight hard enough.  This is a form of victim blaming.”

    No it isn’t.  This is what I hear everytime someone reccomends a possible victim take steps to protect themselves and reduce risk.  Nobody who says those things is blaming the victim.  What we are saying is there are things you can do to avoid becoming one, the same way wearing seatbelts helps avoid auto accident injuries and locking doors helps avoid burglary.  If I forget to lock my house doors and I get burglarized, it doesn’t make it my fault, but it does mean I failed to take percautions that could have helped avoid it.

    No progress will ever be made on this issue if people are stuck in perpetual victimhood mode and go through life just hoping nothing bad happends, as the author seems to be doing.  Just as hoping one wins the lottery won’t help you get rich, hoping that criminals will see the error of their ways and reform due to desperate pleas is just as niave.  The bitter but indisputable fact is that crimes, including rape, have always been and will always be a part of the world we live in, and taking steps to protect oneself from them is good way to deter and stop it.

  • cpalmer9

    Sheesh talk about doom and gloom.  All talk of the possibility of victimhood, but no metion of things that could be done to avoid it.  You are in Texas for Pete’s sake.  If you really are concerned about rape, or any other violent crime, get yourself some firearms training and concealed carry permit.  Have good situational awareness and a proper mindset.  Granted those things won’t ensure you won’t become a victim, but they do greatly increase your chances avoiding it, and help stop a criminal attempt if it does occur.

    Now I can just sit back and watch as the flood “victim blaming” accusations come pouring in.  But I’m not blaming any victim.  Reccomeding a victim take steps and protective actions is not the same thing as blaming them for what criminals do.  The only people responsible for criminal actions are criminals themselves, but that doesn’t mean we should just throw up our hands and decide that nothing can be done about it.  Reccomending potential victims take protective measures is just good policy and common sense, and it’s certainly a lot more productive then long winded lamentable blog posts that offer nothing but a view of living in total fear.

  • pilar608

    And what good is a gun going to do someone if someone slips her drugs?  What good is a gun going to do if she crashes at a friend’s place and he rapes her while she’s asleep?  What good is a gun going to do if she’s making out with her boyfriend and he rapes her, even though she said no?

     

    The problem is that many rapes involve either incapacitating a woman or taking advantage of a women who is already incapacitated.  Many, many rapes are also betrayals of trust–I wouldn’t get drunk and pass out at the house of a friend if I thought he’d rape me.  He wouldn’t be my friend if I thought that of someone.  Because women aren’t stupid, we don’t date or marry or go off alone with men we think will rape us.

     

    What should we do, then?  Sleep with guns under our pillows?  Never trust a man, regardless of how long and how well we know him?  Stay away from our fathers and brothers and uncles?

     

    IMO, women worry about stranger rape so much because it’s intolerable to live with the real fear–that someone we know, someone we might trust, someone we might love could rape us.

  • cpalmer9

    “And what good is a gun going to do someone if someone slips her drugs?  What good is a gun going to do if she crashes at a friend’s place and he rapes her while she’s asleep?  What good is a gun going to do if she’s making out with her boyfriend and he rapes her, even though she said no?”

    In the third example you give, a gun would still be usefull if you have it on you, which I guess would depend on what method of CCW you are using and how far along you are in the processs of making out, but that’s another story all together.

    Yes in the other two examples a gun would do no good.  I didn’t say a gun is the solution to all problems, just that it’s one example of a protective measure you can take.  There are many others, including proper mindset and situational awareness.  All of them are a heck of a lot more useful then just hoping for the best and wondering “who will rape me”.  I just don’t see the value in that.

    “The problem is that many rapes involve either incapacitating a woman or taking advantage of a women who is already incapacitated.  Many, many rapes are also betrayals of trust–I wouldn’t get drunk and pass out at the house of a friend if I thought he’d rape me.  He wouldn’t be my friend if I thought that of someone.  Because women aren’t stupid, we don’t date or marry or go off alone with men we think will rape us.”

    Good point.  That’s being productive:  Identifying a problem and stating protective measures.  Obviously there are many other things, but the point is you are not just lamenting the world situation or blaming victims, but offering reasonable information and solutions, something sorely lacking in this article. 

    “What should we do, then?  Sleep with guns under our pillows?”

    I wouldn’t do that, since I wouldn’t want to risk touching a gun in my sleep, but I do sleep with one within reach in a secure location.

    “Never trust a man, regardless of how long and how well we know him?  Stay away from our fathers and brothers and uncles?”

    Isn’t that the type of logic the author is promoting?  But acting as if every man is a potential rapist and making it seem like rape is inevitable and unvoidable, it would seem that would actually be the only thing to do, rather then take protective measure to reduce risk and defeat actual rape attempts.

    “IMO, women worry about stranger rape so much because it’s intolerable to live with the real fear–that someone we know, someone we might trust, someone we might love could rape us.”

    I understand that, but protective measure can be taken, whether the rapist is somone you know or not.  The fact that it probably will be someone you know is not cause for giving up and hoping for the best, which is what the author of this article is doing.

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    I’m not sure what the rules are in Texas, but in Ohio (where I live) and in other states, people with concealed-carry permits are not allowed to carry their guns in establishments which serve alcohol, and are also not supposed to have them when they’ve been drinking.  So even if a woman did have a permit, it wouldn’t help her at all if she were at a bar and someone slipped drugs into her drink, not unless she wanted to risk being arrested.  (Both my dad and my sister have CCW permits, they talk about gun stuff all the time, so…I know some things, though I have no interest in getting a permit or owning a gun myself.)  Personally I think it’s a pretty smart law, since it’s intended to prevent people from getting angry-drunk and shooting the next person who says something they don’t like.  Guns are not the answer for how to prevent rape; not when rapists themselves use guns in order to make women “cooperate.”  Education and social change are.  

  • cpalmer9

    “I’m not sure what the rules are in Texas, but in Ohio (where I live) and in other states, people with concealed-carry permits are not allowed to carry their guns in establishments which serve alcohol, and are also not supposed to have them when they’ve been drinking.”

    Yeah I’m from Ohio (though I’m currently in Alabama, where CCW in bars is legal as long as you don’t drink) too, so I know all about it.  The good news is the legislature is working hard to change that stupid rule and it should be changed fairly soon

    “So even if a woman did have a permit, it wouldn’t help her at all if she were at a bar and someone slipped drugs into her drink, not unless she wanted to risk being arrested.”

    Very true.  All the more reason not to drink alcohol, which I don’t.  Anyway, I’ve already said guns arn’t the solution to all problems, just one protective measure out of many.

    “Personally I think it’s a pretty smart law, since it’s intended to prevent people from getting angry-drunk and shooting the next person who says something they don’t like.”

    The law against drinking while carrying a gun is good, the law against guns in bars or alcohol serving places even when a person is not drinking is bad.

    “(Both my dad and my sister have CCW permits, they talk about gun stuff all the time, so…I know some things, though I have no interest in getting a permit or owning a gun myself.)”

    That’s fine.  I didn’t say you had to have one.  I just said taking protective measures is a good idea, and certainly a lot more useful and productive then just lamenting the evils of the world and hoping that if you do get raped it will happen in a certain way, as the author does here.  Of what use is that to anyone?

    “Guns are not the answer for how to prevent rape; not when rapists themselves use guns in order to make women “cooperate.”

    Totally false.  First of all most rapists don’t use weapons.  Second of all, if they are using a weapon, a gun of your own is probably the only effective method of self defense.  It’s more of a reason to carry a gun, not less.  In the hands of a trained responsible citizen, gun use can (and in many cases has) prevent rape just as it can prevent other violent crimes.  I can give you plenty of real world examples if you want.

    ” Education and social change are.”

    That’s just silly.  First of all it doesn’t have to be one or the other.  You can have education, social change, and the right to bear arms.  They are not contradictory.

    Second of all, those two things will not abolish rape or other violent crimes from the world.  Rape and violence will always exist, even in the most well educated and socially proper nations in the world.  The need for self defense will always still exist as well.  When some brute is kicking down your door, telling him to go get more educated or go advocate social change probably won’t stop him.

  • migas

    I’m confused by your comment.  Who is this part addressed to? “No progress will ever be made on this issue if people are stuck in perpetual victimhood mode and go through life just hoping nothing bad happends, as the author seems to be doing.”  Is this addressed to the author of the post?  Or is it addressed to bluetigress?  Either way, I’m not sure what you’re saying.

    If your comment about “hoping nothing bad happens” is addressed to the article’s author, I think you’re wrong to make the assumption that she doesn’t take steps to protect herself.  We are taught since we are very young how to take precautions.  Don’t wear tight jeans.  Don’t have your hair in a ponytail.  Don’t use headphones.  Don’t go in certain neighborhoods at night (or ever).  Don’t drink.  Don’t sit in your car and balance your checkbook.  Don’t be a tease.  Et cetera.  Women do not need any more messages telling us to protect ourselves, we have absorbed the messages very young.  We have also absorbed the message that if we get raped it’s our fault, so most women I know already do everything they can to avoid rape, without anyone “helpfully” giving them additional tips.  What our society needs is more messages to men and boys that rape and sexual assault are not OK.  All I’m saying is let’s stop taking so much about what women can do to prevent rape (because that is a form of victim blaming, whether you want to admit it or not), and start talking about how to get our society to take rape seriously.  Start teaching boys how to respect women, bombard them with as many messages about consent as girls get about precautions.

    Rape will never, ever be stopped simply by women taking precautions.  Ever.  Of course, we do still take the precautions.  I’m not sure of your gender, but if you’re a woman I’m sure you take the precautions.  It is possible to be aware of both things at once, that in a just society I wouldn’t have to take these steps to protect myself, but I do them anyway, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t keep speaking up about it.

  • cpalmer9

    “Is this addressed to the author of the post?”

    Yes

    “If your comment about “hoping nothing bad happens” is addressed to the article’s author, I think you’re wrong to make the assumption that she doesn’t take steps to protect herself.”

    Well she certainly doesn’t mention them here.  All she does is talk about “who will my rapist be?” as if being a rape victim is a forgone conclusion and nothing can be done about it.  Just gloom and doom

    “Women do not need any more messages telling us to protect ourselves”

    According to the author, what you do need is the hope that if someone does rape you, it happends under a set of circumstances that makes the perp easy to prosecute.  How is that useful?

    “All I’m saying is let’s stop taking so much about what women can do to prevent rape (because that is a form of victim blaming, whether you want to admit it or not”

    That’s totally absurd.  Is it blaming the victim to tell someone to lock their doors, wear a seatbelt, have a fire exstinguisher in their home?  If you are going to stick to the rediculous notion that any helpful advice on self defense or crime deterance when talking about rape is “victim blaming”, at least articulate why it doesn’t count as victim blaming when applied to other potentially harmful situations.

    In reality it’s no different then telling men what they can do to prevent muggings and car jackings (men are much more likely to be the victims of street crime).  It’s not victim blaming, it’s just a good idea.

    “What our society needs is more messages to men and boys that rape and sexual assault are not OK.  Start teaching boys how to respect women, bombard them with as many messages about consent as girls get about precautions.”

    Kind of like how we teach everyone that drugs are bad and should never be used?  And how we teach everyone murder is bad?  How’s that working out?  What you are saying technically true, but it’s wishful thinking to assume that’s going abolish rape, or any other violent crime, on its own.  You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains some people are going ignore that message, and you have to be prepared to deal with them.

    “Rape will never, ever be stopped simply by women taking precautions.”

    Of course not, but the point is that it won’t ever be stopped period.  It has always existed and will always exist.  Thus precautions will always be needed.  You can’t control what some criminal will do, but you can control what you do.  So it’s up to you.  Accept the reality of the world you live in and steps to minimize risk, or sit around pondering “who will my rapist be?”  Which sounds more productive?  Which sounds more like living in perpetual fear?

     

  • arekushieru

    According to the author, what you do need is the hope that if someone does rape you, it happends under a set of circumstances that makes the perp easy to prosecute.  How is that useful?

    Um, how is it useful to blame the victim?  Or don’t you understand the difference between blaming the victim (placing all responsibility on the victim to change the  perpetrator’s behaviour) or blaming the perpetrator (placing all responsibility on the perpetrator to change their own behaviour)? 

    Well she certainly doesn’t mention them here.  All she does is talk about “who will my rapist be?” as if being a rape victim is a forgone conclusion and nothing can be done about it.  Just gloom and doom

    Uh, why does she NEED to?  Egotistical much? 

    And, how do you go from ‘a set of circumstances that make the perpetrator easy to prosecute’ to ‘acting as if being a rape victim is a foregone conclusion’?  Two TOtally different situations, that rational people would, usually, easily recognize.  The former does NOT set up the latter.  Sorry to disillusion you…?

    That’s totally absurd.  Is it blaming the victim to tell someone to lock their doors, wear a seatbelt, have a fire exstinguisher in their home?  If you are going to stick to the rediculous notion that any helpful advice on self defense or crime deterance when talking about rape is “victim blaming”, at least articulate why it doesn’t count as victim blaming when applied to other potentially harmful situations.

    Um, seriously (you should have been able to figure this out all on your own)? Two of the situations you’re comparing with rape lack ANY kind of intent on the part of the force behind them (which is a rather important point behind the label of victim-blaming…?).  The first situation you describe IS victim-blaming.

    In reality it’s no different then telling men what they can do to prevent muggings and car jackings (men are much more likely to be the victims of street crime).  It’s not victim blaming, it’s just a good idea.

    Firstly, that IS victim-blaming.  Secondly, please ‘articulate’ why you think men are much more likely to be the victims of street crime?

     

    Kind of like how we teach everyone that drugs are bad and should never be used?  And how we teach everyone murder is bad?  How’s that working out?  What you are saying technically true, but it’s wishful thinking to assume that’s going abolish rape, or any other violent crime, on its own.  You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but the fact remains some people are going ignore that message, and you have to be prepared to deal with them.

     

    So far it has seemed much more effective than simply following YOUR suggestions.  We’ve tried that, already.  It hasn’t worked, because those pesky little things known as facts that you like to ignore, keep getting in the way.  What a woman (using the female gender because women are the ones who experience these kinds of crimes most often) does, does NOT determine whether she will be raped or not.  The mental state of the perpetrator determines whether there will be a victim of rape.

    Of course not, but the point is that it won’t ever be stopped period.  It has always existed and will always exist.  Thus precautions will always be needed.  You can’t control what some criminal will do, but you can control what you do.  So it’s up to you.  Accept the reality of the world you live in and steps to minimize risk, or sit around pondering “who will my rapist be?”  Which sounds more productive?  Which sounds more like living in perpetual fear?

    See above.

  • arekushieru

    Totally false.  First of all most rapists don’t use weapons.  Second of all, if they are using a weapon, a gun of your own is probably the only effective method of self defense.  It’s more of a reason to carry a gun, not less.  In the hands of a trained responsible citizen, gun use can (and in many cases has) prevent rape just as it can prevent other violent crimes.  I can give you plenty of real world examples if you want.

    Really?  So, I guess people are just as totally calm, level-headed and peaceful when being victimized under the commission of a crime as they are when they are going about their daily lives?  Then why are these things even called crimes?  Hmmm…?

    Also, please do ‘articulate’ your reasons as to why you believe most of these crimes are NOT committed with weapons?

    Second of all, those two things will not abolish rape or other violent crimes from the world.  Rape and violence will always exist, even in the most well educated and socially proper nations in the world.  The need for self defense will always still exist as well.  When some brute is kicking down your door, telling him to go get more educated or go advocate social change probably won’t stop him.

    Errr, what?  Read above, then come back here:  When someone is breaking down your door, you’re not likely going to be in the frame of mind to do anything OTHER than defend yourself, which is WHY these methods are advocated as preVENTion rather than defense.  

  • arekushieru

    Yes in the other two examples a gun would do no good.  I didn’t say a gun is the solution to all problems, just that it’s one example of a protective measure you can take.  There are many others, including proper mindset and situational awareness.  All of them are a heck of a lot more useful then just hoping for the best and wondering “who will rape me”.  I just don’t see the value in that.

    You’re really misreading this article, and, since you started out reading it fine, I would guess deliberately.

    Good point.  That’s being productive:  Identifying a problem and stating protective measures.  Obviously there are many other things, but the point is you are not just lamenting the world situation or blaming victims, but offering reasonable information and solutions, something sorely lacking in this article.

    Why would you congratulate someone for not doing something you’re doing?

    Isn’t that the type of logic the author is promoting?  But acting as if every man is a potential rapist and making it seem like rape is inevitable and unvoidable, it would seem that would actually be the only thing to do, rather then take protective measure to reduce risk and defeat actual rape attempts.

    No, that’s what YOU’RE doing.  By saying that attempting to change the perpetrators behaviour from the start is a failure, you are saying that every man is a potential rapist.

    I understand that, but protective measure can be taken, whether the rapist is somone you know or not.  The fact that it probably will be someone you know is not cause for giving up and hoping for the best, which is what the author of this article is doing.

    Again.  Misstating the article.

  • squirrely-girl

    Rape and violence will always exist, even in the most well educated and socially proper nations in the world.

  • katwa

    you are mistaken if you think anything you are doing is protecting yourself from getting raped. Not being raped is just being LUCKY, you are not somehow special because of your “taking steps”. You are lucky your father is not a rapist, your boyfriend/husband is not a rapist, your friends are not rapist, your boss is not a rapist. Some women are not so lucky. It has NOTHING to do with what we do.

    Nobody who says those things is blaming the victim.  What we are saying is there are things you can do to avoid becoming one, the same way wearing seatbelts helps avoid auto accident injuries and locking doors helps avoid burglary.  If I forget to lock my house doors and I get burglarized, it doesn’t make it my fault, but it does mean I failed to take percautions that could have helped avoid it.

    You don’t think it’s victim blaming to tell someone she got raped because she “failed to take precautions”??

     

    Just so you know, these “precautions” don’t actually work. It completely depends on the rapist if fighting back or surrendering will result in less injury or more. Some people will give up if you fight, and let you go. Some will just get more angry and hurt you more, maybe even kill you. Some victims of serial killers were not killed and survived because they were abuse victims and new how to comply and totally surrender. When someone is raping you, you have to realize it’s not just the rape, but YOUR LIFE that is at stake, and doing whatever you can to survive is all you can do. There are no right or wrong answers, no way to “deter and stop it”.

     

    When I was raped, I did what I thought I was supposed to, I kicked the guy in the balls while his two friends held me down and he tried to take my pants off. This made him very angry, and resulted in more injury to me. Afterwards, people told me, why did you fight him? You just made him angrier! You should have known one girl couldn’t fight off 3 men!! Now you are hurt because you didn’t just do what they asked. So I did what I thought would NOT result in me being blamed, and I still was blamed! I don’t think there was anything I could have done that didn’t result in that. 

     

    THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO, NOT “PRECAUTIONS” YOU CAN TAKE THAT CAN REDUCE YOUR CHANCE OF RAPE. Except maybe living on an island all by yourself.


  • katwa

    Not to mention some women are serving life in prison for killing their attackers.

  • cpalmer9

    “Also, please do ‘articulate’ your reasons as to why you believe most of these crimes are NOT committed with weapons?”

    Because that’s what the studies show:

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124272157

    “Still, Lisak says these men don’t think of themselves as rapists. Usually they know the other student. And they don’t use guns or knives.”

    http://www.mwmagazine.com.au/?p=226

    Only 2% of rapists said they carried weapons because rape carries a 3-5 year sentence (in USA) but rape with a weapon is 15-20 years. (Check the Qld. criminal code <http://www.qld.gov.au> for penalties and sentences)

    http://www.newsweek.com/1990/07/22/the-mind-of-the-rapist.html

    “A weapon was used in 30% of rapes; of those weapons, 25% were handguns and 44% were knives.”

  • cpalmer9

    Some men have gone to prison for killing in self defense as well.  It’s always a possibility.  Whether or not you are willing to take the chance is a choice only the individual can make, but I chose to believe in the old saying “it’s better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.”

  • cpalmer9

    No, that’s what YOU’RE doing.  By saying that attempting to change the perpetrators behaviour from the start is a failure, you are saying that every man is a potential rapist.”

    But I never said any such thing.  First of all I make a clear distinction between criminals and non-criminals, so that disproves the “all men are potential rapists” claim right there.

    Second of all, I didn’t say it was “that attempting to change the perpetrators behaviour from the start is a failure”.  Of course rape should be discouraged, just as all other forms of crime should, like murder, armed robbery, and drunk driving.  What I’m saying is doing so will never abolish rape, or any other form of violent crime for that matter.  There is nothing wrong with it, it’s just wishful thinking to assume that’s going to be the perfect solution on its own.  Rape will still always exist and protective measures will still be needed.  It’s absurd to suggest a realistic view of the world requires one to think everyone is a potential rapist. 

    Why would you congratulate someone for not doing something you’re doing?

    Now who’s the one mistating articles?

    You’re really misreading this article, and, since you started out reading it fine, I would guess deliberately.

    Again.  Misstating the article.

    Please articulate what I am misreading and mistating

  • cpalmer9

    Um, how is it useful to blame the victim?

    It isn’t, which is why I havn’t done so.  It’s certainly useless to claim offering sound advice on personal protection and crime deterance is a “victim blaming”.

    And, how do you go from ‘a set of circumstances that make the perpetrator easy to prosecute’ to ‘acting as if being a rape victim is a foregone conclusion’?  Two TOtally different situations, that rational people would, usually, easily recognize.  The former does NOT set up the latter.

    I respectfully disagree.  Both are included in this article, it was the author originally brought it up, not me.

    Uh, why does she NEED to?  Egotistical much?

    She doesn’t need to do anything.  Need is not the issue here, I was just questioning the value of a post that does nothing but depict living in hopeless perpetual fear.

    Um, seriously (you should have been able to figure this out all on your own)? Two of the situations you’re comparing with rape lack ANY kind of intent on the part of the force behind them (which is a rather important point behind the label of victim-blaming…?).  The first situation you describe IS victim-blaming.

     

    In reality it’s no different then telling men what they can do to prevent muggings and car jackings (men are much more likely to be the victims of street crime).  It’s not victim blaming, it’s just a good idea.

     

    Firstly, that IS victim-blaming. 

    So you are really going to take the position that offering any helpful advice for defense against any type of crime automatically equals “victim blaming”?  Facinating, I never thought I would see anyone admit to such an absurd position outright.

    Well if that’s the case then I guess I’m guilty of “self victim blaming” since I personally have sought out plenty information and helpful advice on self defense, personal protection, home security, and crime deterance.  I must be a “self-hating victim”

     Secondly, please ‘articulate’ why you think men are much more likely to be the victims of street crime?

    Because that’s what studies show

    http://www.suite101.com/pages/article_old.cfm/crime_deviance/79466

    Most victims and offenders of crime are men, the only exception being the crime of rape. In many places people believe that women are at higher risk of victimization. Statistically, this has not proven out, except for the crime of rape.”

    http://menshealth.about.com/od/lifestyle/a/crime_victims.htm

    It is estimated that men are three times more likely than women to be the victims of assault but despite this the media, the police, the education system and various other agencies focus their efforts in promoting the avoidance of crime among women.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/northwest/series7/street_crime.shtml

    “A study at Manchester University revealed that men between the ages of 19 and 25 are at a greater risk, as are students and businessmen who have had an after work drink.”

    http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/personal-injury/male-health-claims.html

    “men are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime such as physical assault or mugging which results in a personal injury.  Men worry less about becoming a victim of crime but statistics from this website show that they are more likely to be a victim of crime than women. “

    So far it has seemed much more effective than simply following YOUR suggestions.  We’ve tried that, already.  It hasn’t worked

    Well that depends what you mean by that.  If you mean it’s failed to abolish rape completely, then you are correct, but that’s because such a goal is impossible.  I could just as easily point out that all other methods, including socially discouraging rape through education and media, have failed in that goal.  I have made it perfectly clear that no single measure will ever completely abolish rape or any other crime.  Crime will always exist.  That’s just reality.

    If you mean it’s failed to help anyone fight off an attacker or avoid an incident in the first place, then I disgree and can show you plenty of examples proving otherwise.

    What a woman (using the female gender because women are the ones who experience these kinds of crimes most often) does, does NOT determine whether she will be raped or not.  The mental state of the perpetrator determines whether there will be a victim of rape.

    It is true that the only people resposible for rape or any other crime are the criminals themselves.  I have never said or implied otherwise, and it is dishonest to suggest that I did.

    However, I totally reject the notion that there is noting a victim can do about it except sit around wondering “who will rape me”.  That’s a self-defeating and utterly preposterous notion.  How many examples do you want me to provide proving that wrong?  Oh right, it won’t matter because every study showing how proctive measure can deter crime and example of someone fighting off their attacker would be “victim blaming”.

    Your logic seems to be “the fact that criminals are the sole people responsible for their crimes means victims should not be concerned with taking any protective measures at all, and reccomending they do so counts as ‘victim blaming’.”  I totally reject that position, and I think most others do as well.

  • cpalmer9

    “you are mistaken if you think anything you are doing is protecting yourself from getting raped. Not being raped is just being LUCKY”

    I respectfully disagree with such a self-defeating notion and can show you plenty of examples proving otherwise.

    You don’t think it’s victim blaming to tell someone she got raped because she “failed to take precautions”??

    That would indeed be victim blaming, but that’s not what I said at all.  I have repeatedly said the only person responsible for crime is the criminal.  Again go back to the burglary example.  If I forgot to lock my doors and get burglarized, does that make the burglary my fault?  No.  Does it mean I am responsible it?  No.  Does it mean I failed to do something that might have helped prevent it?  Yes.  Letting someone know they failed to take a protective measure that might have helped doesn’t imply personal responsibility for crime, it just lets them know there are things that can be done to reduce risk.

    I myself have experienced crime before, though thankfully nothing as bad as rape.  In each case I went back and looked at what I did or could have done to determine if I could have done something more effective.  In doing so, I wasn’t blaming myself, just looking for an honest assessment of whether or not I did all I could.  It wasn’t pleasent admitting there were I did wrong that could have made a difference, but I’m glad I did and it actually helped with recovering.

    THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO, NOT “PRECAUTIONS” YOU CAN TAKE THAT CAN REDUCE YOUR CHANCE OF RAPE. Except maybe living on an island all by yourself.

    I respectfully disagree with such a self-defeating notion (in regards to any crime, not just rape) and can show you plenty of examples proving otherwise.

    Now it is certainly true there is no magic, perfect, works every time, solution that will abolish rape from the world.  But the realistic goal isn’t to look for something that will protect you in every possible situation, just measures that can reduce risk.

  • colleen

    Some men have gone to prison for killing in self defense as well.  It’s always a possibility.  Whether or not you are willing to take the chance is a choice only the individual can make, but I chose to believe in the old saying “it’s better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.”

    So, your sole ‘solution’ to avoid being raped (or certainly the only one you’re able to articulate) results in killing someone and serving 25 to life.

     

  • cpalmer9

    Who boy a lot of falsehoods in that one statement.

    First of all I didn’t say there was any sole solution

    Second of all, lawful self defense doesn’t usally involve killing the attacker, even if it’s with a firearm.

    Third of all, the police and prosecutors are usually good at recognizing the right to self defense, so genereally speaking as long as it was proper, chances are you’ll never get charged.

    Fourth of all, even if you are charged there is a good chance a jury would aquitt you if your conduct was proper under the circumstances.

  • katwa

    why didn’t it work for me? I was trained in Tae Kwon Doe and USED it, I was still raped. What did I do wrong? Leave my house?

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    Yeah I’m from Ohio (though I’m currently in Alabama, where CCW in bars is legal as long as you don’t drink) too, so I know all about it.  The good news is the legislature is working hard to change that stupid rule and it should be changed fairly soon

    Very true.  All the more reason not to drink alcohol, which I don’t.  Anyway, I’ve already said guns arn’t the solution to all problems, just one protective measure out of many.

    The law against drinking while carrying a gun is good, the law against guns in bars or alcohol serving places even when a person is not drinking is bad.

    All right, I already said I didn’t think it was a stupid rule.  I have plenty of personal reasons to find the idea of CCW permits frightening, and I can imagine too many things going wrong in a bar setting.  And good for you for not drinking, but the fact that you say that date-rape drugs are “one more reason not to drink” makes you sound like a victim-blamer. 

    That’s fine.  I didn’t say you had to have one.  I just said taking protective measures is a good idea, and certainly a lot more useful and productive then just lamenting the evils of the world and hoping that if you do get raped it will happen in a certain way, as the author does here.  Of what use is that to anyone?

    I seriously doubt that all Ms. Grimes ever does is lamenting the evils of rape.  She’s a writer for RHRC, and she certainly seems well-informed about the issue.  There’s a very good chance that she’s actually involved in prevention work or survivor care herself.  Even if she’s not, she’s obviously writing about rape, its prevalence, and the way it affects women, in a public space–that’s certainly more than just her personal lamentations.

    Totally false.  First of all most rapists don’t use weapons.  Second of all, if they are using a weapon, a gun of your own is probably the only effective method of self defense.  It’s more of a reason to carry a gun, not less.  In the hands of a trained responsible citizen, gun use can (and in many cases has) prevent rape just as it can prevent other violent crimes.  I can give you plenty of real world examples if you want.

     

    I didn’t say most of them were.  That doesn’t mean that some of them aren’t.  Never mind that if someone’s attempting to rape another person at gunpoint, and they have their gun with them, but it’s stuck in their purse or pocket or somewhere else unreachable, or the rapist is grabbing onto their hands or has them pinned down–what good is that?  Martial-arts self-defense would be the better path to take, in my mind–learn how to get out of those binds.  And yeah, those techniques could be used in tandem with a gun.  (Saying this because I know that if I don’t you’ll jump all over me for it.)  But relying on a tool or weapon outside of one’s own body to save oneself from assault is risky, to say the least.  It’s too easy to end up in a nasty situation where such a method is inaccessable.

    That’s just silly.  First of all it doesn’t have to be one or the other.  You can have education, social change, and the right to bear arms.  They are not contradictory.

    I didn’t say they were.  “The right to bear arms” means what it says, it doesn’t mean “using a gun is the best way to solve the predicament of sexual assault.”  I’m not trying to overturn the second amendment, I’ve known good gun owners and bad gun owners, and my issues are mine alone.  But I do think that when people say “well, I’ve got my CCW lisence, I’m protected from crime!”, (or “get your lisence, you’ll be protected!”) they’re being extremely naive.  

    Second of all, those two things will not abolish rape or other violent crimes from the world.  Rape and violence will always exist, even in the most well educated and socially proper nations in the world.  The need for self defense will always still exist as well.  When some brute is kicking down your door, telling him to go get more educated or go advocate social change probably won’t stop him.

    Actually, over a long enough period of time, I think education and social change can eradicate crime.  What else works?  Violence begets more violence.  The prison system is horribly flawed and ruins people for life.  I’m thinking in terms of long-term solutions here, which I’d think was obvious, so don’t be so willfully obtuse.  Obviously, if someone is kicking down my door, the logical response would be to call the police, run away, hit him over the head, kick/punch him, whatever.  You might shoot him.  Those are all short-term solutions for that specific situation.  But rape/sexual assault are huge, systemic problems.  Systemic problems cannot be solved with short-term solutions.  Even if you somehow killed every known living rapist with a gun, there are people being born or growing up every day, and some of them are getting the message that rape is okay.  That’s what needs to change.

  • arekushieru

    Second of all, lawful self defense doesn’t usally involve killing the attacker, even if it’s with a firearm.

    Really?  Everything just goes oh-so-perfectly when someone is threatened with bodily harm?  Srsly?  It’s like YOU’RE the one who is saying that attackers will immediately follow any instructions that their victim gives them.  Attacker:  AhHAH, I threaten you with this knife!  You:  I have a gun and I’m not afraid to use it, so you better run!  Attacker:  I will run away!  Because I am so scared of guns!  Even if the attacker doesn’t leave, you apparently automatically assume that a gun will go off at the appropriate time, there will be no scuffle and even during such a traumatic event the victim’s aim will be perfect.  Errr… what?

    Third of all, the police and prosecutors are usually good at recognizing the right to self defense, so genereally speaking as long as it was proper, chances are you’ll never get charged.

    Oh, yes, that’s why there are no such people as David Milgaard et al falsely accused because the police were too sloppy and hasty to charge someone to use proper procedures and techniques.

     

    Fourth of all, even if you are charged there is a good chance a jury would aquitt you if your conduct was proper under the circumstances.

    Oh, that’s why those very selfsame people are never put away behind bars for 22 years.

     

  • arekushieru

    It isn’t, which is why I havn’t done so.  It’s certainly useless to claim offering sound advice on personal protection and crime deterance is a “victim blaming”.

    Do look up the term placing responsibility on the victim to change a perpetrator’s behaviour and you will find out right quickly that it is the definition for victim-blaming.  I don’t care how nicely you wrap it up, that’s essentially, what you’re doing.

    I respectfully disagree.  Both are included in this article, it was the author originally brought it up, not me.

    You don’t get it, do you?  One statement kinda precludes the other. 

    She doesn’t need to do anything.  Need is not the issue here, I was just questioning the value of a post that does nothing but depict living in hopeless perpetual fear.

    Then why was this mentioned as if it was the only way you could accept that she wasn’t doing nothing more than depicting living in hopeless perpetual fear?

    So you are really going to take the position that offering any helpful advice for defense against any type of crime automatically equals “victim blaming”?  Facinating, I never thought I would see anyone admit to such an absurd position outright.

    Because you’re simply rephrasing it to make it sound more palatable, when it really isn’t. 

    Well if that’s the case then I guess I’m guilty of “self victim blaming” since I personally have sought out plenty information and helpful advice on self defense, personal protection, home security, and crime deterance.  I must be a “self-hating victim”

    Unable to get the difference between choice and coercion…?  Usually, if it’s something you do on your own, it’s something done completely by your own choice.  When it’s something someone else is telling you to do, it’s a form of coercion, trying to tell you that the only acceptable behaviour is the behaviour they’d prefer you to exhibit.

    If you mean it’s failed to help anyone fight off an attacker or avoid an incident in the first place, then I disgree and can show you plenty of examples proving otherwise.

    If you mean your own personal examples, anecdotes ftl!

    There are certain crimes such as domestic abuse and sexual abuse in which the victims are more likely to be men than women.

    Hmm, it sounds like someone is cherry-picking.  Considering that one of the other websites reported that women were far more likely to be a victim of rape, these two sites are very contradictory.  Most of them focus on victim-blaming and can’t be bothered to provide the statistics they claim to be reporting from.  None of them define what violent crime is, under a male context, other than murder.  For example, the injuries a woman sustains during a mugging are never compared to similar injuries that a man might sustain during a mugging.   One would think more violent crime is committed by those who are generally physically stronger and that it would be against those who are generally physically worker.  You would think that would be the more logical path to follow and, if not, that they would explain why it isn’t.

    Well that depends what you mean by that.  If you mean it’s failed to abolish rape completely, then you are correct, but that’s because such a goal is impossible.  I could just as easily point out that all other methods, including socially discouraging rape through education and media, have failed in that goal.  I have made it perfectly clear that no single measure will ever completely abolish rape or any other crime.  Crime will always exist.  That’s just reality.

    That’s because it was never meant to be an immediate solution, obviously.  If these attitudes have been ingrained into our cultures and religions for millenium, it’s going to take much longer than that to deconstruct them.  Your methods, however, have been proven not to reduce instances of rape because they don’t address the core issues of control and power at the center of acts of rape.

    It is true that the only people resposible for rape or any other crime are the criminals themselves.  I have never said or implied otherwise, and it is dishonest to suggest that I did.

    You obviously have said it, if you, yourself, state that prevention at the source will never work by itself.  Why is that?  Because you imply that the criminals are NOT the sole individuals responsible for rape, that if a woman would just change her behaviour, the instances of rape would be reduced.  What is that other than stating that women are responsible for reducing the number of rapes, then?

    However, I totally reject the notion that there is noting a victim can do about it except sit around wondering “who will rape me”.  That’s a self-defeating and utterly preposterous notion.  How many examples do you want me to provide proving that wrong?  Oh right, it won’t matter because every study showing how proctive measure can deter crime and example of someone fighting off their attacker would be “victim blaming”.

     

    That you still fail to grasp the point doesn’t surprise me.  My contention is that she is NOT saying that.  It never HAS been that sitting around wondering who will rape me ISn’t a self-defeating and utterly preposterous notion.  As the statistics currently stand, she will likely be a victim of completed OR attempted rape.  And she is simply wondering, in keeping with those statistics, who will rape her.  If you want to continue to believe, though, that placing responsibility on the victim to change another’s behaviour is not victim-blaming, go right ahead.

    Your logic seems to be “the fact that criminals are the sole people responsible for their crimes means victims should not be concerned with taking any protective measures at all, and reccomending they do so counts as ‘victim blaming’.”  I totally reject that position, and I think most others do as well.

    Again, you miss the point.  Coercion vs choice.  If someone wants to be proactive and invites someone to teach them how to do so, fine.  But YOU’RE suggestion ’implies’ that women aren’t doing enough to prevent rape from happening to them.

  • arekushieru

    Second of all, I didn’t say it was “that attempting to change the perpetrators behaviour from the start is a failure”.  Of course rape should be discouraged, just as all other forms of crime should, like murder, armed robbery, and drunk driving.  What I’m saying is doing so will never abolish rape, or any other form of violent crime for that matter.  There is nothing wrong with it, it’s just wishful thinking to assume that’s going to be the perfect solution on its own.  Rape will still always exist and protective measures will still be needed.  It’s absurd to suggest a realistic view of the world requires one to think everyone is a potential rapist. 

    First of all, you know this, how?  Second of all, you’re not simply arguing that more protective measures would be needed (and why), iyvho.  You’re deMANding that they be utilized.  That is victim-blaming.  Which is why I wrote the second point you quoted from that reply of mine.

    As for your final quote, read my most recent reply.

  • cpalmer9

    And good for you for not drinking, but the fact that you say that date-rape drugs are “one more reason not to drink” makes you sound like a victim-blamer.

    It seems like everything I say earns me that title.  I didn’t said one can’t ever drink, I just said it’s a reason not too (furthermore I was talking in the context of the law banning CCW while drinking, not about date rape drugs).  I certainly never said or remotely implied that drinking makes person responsible for the actions of criminals.

    “I seriously doubt that all Ms. Grimes ever does is lamenting the evils of rape.”

    Maybe that’s not all she ever does, but that’s all I see in this one post.  I was only commenting on this specific article, not anything else.

    But I do think that when people say “well, I’ve got my CCW lisence, I’m protected from crime!”, (or “get your lisence, you’ll be protected!”) they’re being extremely naive.  

    I strongly agree that anyone who thinks any one protective measure will protect them in every possible situation is being naive.  Reasonable people don’t expect to have a perfect, works-every-time method.  However, my point still remains that there are protective measures that can work effectively, though not perfectly.

    Actually, over a long enough period of time, I think education and social change can eradicate crime.

    Now who’s the one being naive?  That’s a total utopain fantasy.

    Obviously, if someone is kicking down my door, the logical response would be to call the police, run away, hit him over the head, kick/punch him, whatever.  You might shoot him.  Those are all short-term solutions for that specific situation.

    Agreed, but my point is those “short term solutions” will always be necissary, not matter how effective education and social change turns out.

    Systemic problems cannot be solved with short-term solutions.

    No, but they will be needed as long as the problem of violent crime exists, which is going to be forever.

    Even if we assume crime will be abolished, such short term solutions will still be needed until it is.

    Even if you somehow killed every known living rapist with a gun, there are people being born or growing up every day, and some of them are getting the message that rape is okay.  That’s what needs to change.

    Agreed, but it’s foolish to assume some people won’t ignore the message.  We as a society give out messages all the time that are ignored by the lawless:  “Don’t do drugs, don’t drive drunk, don’t murder, rob, or embezzle.”  Why would a message of “don’t rape” (which I think alread is being stated) be any more effective at abolishing crime then those other ones?

  • cpalmer9

    Really?  Everything just goes oh-so-perfectly when someone is threatened with bodily harm?  Srsly?  It’s like YOU’RE the one who is saying that attackers will immediately follow any instructions that their victim gives them

    This is what I’ve discovered by researching the issue of firearm self defense for years. If you actually study the issue, you’ll find what I said is true.  Most cases of firearm self defense do not involve killing the attacker.  Generally the gun doesn’t have to be fired, as pointing it at someone is often enough to make someone re-think their actions, and when it is fired, it usually does not result in fatal hits.

    I never said it would go perfect, just that it usually doesn’t involve death.  It’s true the one must be ready to pull the trigger if the bad guy doesn’t get message, but one must also understand that killing the attacker is not a necessary or even common outcome.

    “Third of all, the police and prosecutors are usually good at recognizing the right to self defense, so genereally speaking as long as it was proper, chances are you’ll never get charged.”

    Oh, yes, that’s why there are no such people as David Milgaard et al falsely accused because the police were too sloppy and hasty to charge someone to use proper procedures and techniques.

    Read my post again.  I clearly said “usually”, not always.  There are exceptions to every rule, and the criminal justice system is not perfect.  But based on what I’ve seen, the police and/or the courts usually get it right.  Our nation has a strong commitment to the right of self defense, and based on what I’ve seen I think we recognize it in the legal system better then any other country.

    At the very least, you’ll get a chance to state your case in a proper setting.  That’s much better then the options your attacker will give you if chose to submit.

    “Fourth of all, even if you are charged there is a good chance a jury would aquitt you if your conduct was proper under the circumstances.”

    Oh, that’s why those very selfsame people are never put away behind bars for 22 years.

    See above post.  In life there are no garuntees, but the system usually gets it right.

    Whether or not the risk of prosecution is worth defending yourself from such a crime is something an individual must decide for themselves.  For me, it wasn’t a hard choice.

  • colleen

    It seems like everything I say earns me that title.

    I expect it’s the combination of arrogance and condescension combined with ignorance about rape and the manner in which our criminal justice system often abuses rape victims.

    . You offer nothing to the conversation and a woman would have to be an idiot to follow your advice.

     

  • cpalmer9

    Oh, and I suppose you find pondering “who will rape me” and hoping it will happen under certain circumstances to be much more substansive?

    I fully understand how the criminal justice system sometimes fails victims, but that’s no reason to adopt such a dismal and self-defeating position.

  • arekushieru

    You seriously need some reading glasses or to go back to English 101.  Because that is NOT what she was saying.  It’s just TOO bad that you can’t see that.

  • arekushieru

    And, yet, you have still to provide statistics that back you up.

    That David Milgaard example?  Was only ONE of MANY.

    Canada recognizes the right to self-defense better than the *US*, because it is applied more evenly across the board, here, than anywhere else.  The case of David Milgaard, though?  Happened in Canada.

    Again, statistics?

  • colleen

    The word is substantive.

     

  • crowepps

    It’s certainly useless to claim offering sound advice on personal protection and crime deterance is a “victim blaming”.

    Your series of posts add up to “if those women would just follow my sound advice to carry concealed they wouldn’t get raped; by failing to carry concealed (be sober/avoid men/stay home) they’re part of the problem“.  This is considered offensive because it puts the responsibility for preventing the crime on the victim, it assumes the victim’s failure to take precautions is a proximate cause of the crime, and of course it is inevitably seen as ‘mansplaining’ by someone who does not understand the dynamics of sexism.

     

    I agree with you that if every idiot who feels women are objects who exist so he can fantasize about them had a .44 stuck up his nose every time he told a classmate or coworker she looked ‘hot’ or complimented a stranger’s cleavage it would improve the level of civility in the world, but I think after the first couple days the hundreds or deaths or injuries would cause a backlash.  In addition, your assertion that law enforcement and juries would be sympathetic to a plea of self-defense is not supported by the convictions and lengthy sentences in cases where women with a documented history of being beaten finally fight back and kill their abusers.

  • crowepps

    The female reaction to his ‘truth’ isn’t supposed to be ‘I hope when it happens to me I can get a conviction’.  Instead women are supposed to be POSITIVE THINKERS and hope practicing an array of self-protective behaviors means somebody ELSE is the victim of the rapist.  Because, you know, women are just helped tremendously when some man makes it clear what FEELINGS men have determined that it is appropriate for women to have.

     

    This is just such an excellent example of a guy reacting to a female statement of ‘this is how this situation makes me feel’ by assuming he is being asked to SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

    Unhappy at work?  Quit working!

    Unhappy because husband has threatened to kill you?  Leave! 

    Worried about being raped?  Get a gun!

    Just don’t go on and ON about it because the guyz are bored with all this emotional stuff and don’t want to hear it.

  • cpalmer9

    Then why don’t you explain what you think the proper interpretation is?

  • cpalmer9

    I still havn’t gotten anyone to explain what the proper response would be to an article that treats rape (or any other crime for that matter) as being nearly inevitable and unavoidable, as this one seems to do.

    It really does surprise me only one other person here has questioned that viewpoint, let alone disputed it.

     

     

  • cpalmer9

    Here are some stats for you.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/t1h35xg532770p26/

    http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/lawmaking_hysteria.htm

    From 1987-1992, people used firearms for self defense 83,000 times per year, according to a study from the Department of Justice.  The National Crime Victimization survey put the number even higher, at 108,000.  That was before most states had legal CCW laws, so the number has probably gone up.  Sadly there are no studies of firearm self defense done recently that I know of.

    In contrast, the number of justified homicides with firearms per year (killings in self defense), has never gone above 300.  Clearly this shows most firearm self defense cases do not involve killing.

    http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_15.html

     

    As for Canada, I disagree that they do a better job of recognizing self defense then the US.  They have no right to bear arms, no CCW laws, and self defense isn’t even recognized as a legitimate reason for owning a gun.

    In addition to the case you cite, there is also the case of Brian Fox, who was arrested going out to confront tresspassers on his land with an unloaded gun, even though he never loaded it, pointed it at them, or threatened them with it in any way.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/endangered+right+self+defence/3903262/story.html

  • colleen

    Then why don’t you explain what you think the proper interpretation is?

    Because it’s a waste of time trying to communicate with trolls.

  • cpalmer9

    Right anyone who presents scathing assessment of the article at hand must be considered a troll.

  • crowepps

    You missed the intent underlying the stylistic construction of the original article.  The author uses the device of listing actual real events which have been in the news, many of which have been discussed at this site, as through she had been/would be the victim in each case, and then detailing the rape-apologist, victim-blaming public reaction to those actual real events.

     

    When she is talking about ‘rape culture’, she is not saying that rape is inevitable and there’s no point in resisting.  Instead she is saying that the RESPONSES TO THE RAPES by people who were not involved tended to focus on the VICTIM and the victim’s behavior (like yours), with an underlying subtext that of course men are all sexually aggressive and that’s just the way things will always be so there isn’t much point trying to curb men’s sex drives so instead prevention should encourage women to avoid  triggering men’s lustful frenzies and/or avoid men altogether.

     

    Your assertion that women all be armed so they can pull a gun and hold the guyz off until they calm them down is the same song, different verse.

     

    A totally different way of handling this particular issue would for BOTH men and women to react to overt sexism, male entitlement and public objectifying remarks with loathing and scorn.  Considering the huge changes in the reactions to drunk driving and smoking and open polluting caused by public information campaigns, it certainly COULD be possible for us  to turn this around.  Since any man who isn’t actually seriously mentally ill is capable of being responsible for and controlling his public behavior, I just don’t see a downside there.  The first step in getting this change made, though, is to get people to change their focus from the victims and the victims’ behavior and the victims’ ‘mistakes’, because THAT HASN’T WORKED IN THE PAST.

  • crowepps

    It isn’t the scathing assessment that says troll to me, since I’ve certainly seen other scathing assessments here from reasonable people, but instead the fact that you missed the point of the article, your repeated volleys of ‘that doesn’t convince me’ as though the other posters here have an obligation to educate you, your idee fixee about concealed carry, and the sexist entitlement demonstrated by appointing yourself critic of a woman writer on a woman’s subject, particularly when you object to her ATTITUDE.

     

    Those do indicate troll.

  • cpalmer9

    Do look up the term placing responsibility on the victim to change a perpetrator’s behaviour and you will find out right quickly that it is the definition for victim-blaming.

    I agree, but I never said any such thing.  I have made it clear from the beginning the only person responsible for criminal behavior is the criminal.  But the fact that is the criminal’s responsibily doesn’t mean there isn’t anything the victim could ever do to protect themselves.  That would be a default postion of unconditional surrender, which I do not accept.

    She doesn’t need to do anything.  Need is not the issue here, I was just questioning the value of a post that does nothing but depict living in hopeless perpetual fear.

     

    Then why was this mentioned as if it was the only way you could accept that she wasn’t doing nothing more than depicting living in hopeless perpetual fear?

    Actually I never mentioned the word need in that context.  I was simply stating my assessment of what’s in the article, nothing more.

    If you mean it’s failed to help anyone fight off an attacker or avoid an incident in the first place, then I disgree and can show you plenty of examples proving otherwise.

     

    If you mean your own personal examples, anecdotes ftl!

     

    I don’t mean my own personal examples, I mean real stories of other people.  Yes they are anecdotes, and not stats, but I wasn’t making a statistical argument, just pointing out that certain defensive measures can be effective and real life examples prove it to be so.

    One would think more violent crime is committed by those who are generally physically stronger and that it would be against those who are generally physically worker.  You would think that would be the more logical path to follow and, if not, that they would explain why it isn’t.

    What one would think isn’t the issue here.  The issue is what studies show, and that’s that men are more likely to be victims of violent crime overall.  If you have reason to dispute that, then show me some studies that say otherwise.  I have never found any.

    That’s because it was never meant to be an immediate solution, obviously.  If these attitudes have been ingrained into our cultures and religions for millenium, it’s going to take much longer than that to deconstruct them.  Your methods, however, have been proven not to reduce instances of rape because they don’t address the core issues of control and power at the center of acts of rape.

    Even if one were to accept the possibility that rape could be abolished, which I don’t, you still admit it would take longer then a millenium.  That means the protective measures I advocate will be necessary that whole time.  One does not need to adress the “core issues” to use protective measures effectively.  Again, that would be a position of unconditional surrender.

    Because you imply that the criminals are NOT the sole individuals responsible for rape

    Point to where I said that in any comment I made on this article.  You won’t find it.  You will find tons of times I state that criminals are the only ones responsible for crime.

    You really are missing the point here.  The point is not to establish who is responsible, as that is already clear.  The point is to accept as default that it is the criminal and move on to what can be done about it.  Stating that there are things that can be done doesn’t transfer responsibility to the victim.

    If you want to continue to believe, though, that placing responsibility on the victim to change another’s behaviour is not victim-blaming, go right ahead.

    There you go again.  The only person mentoning “responsibility on the victim to change another’s behaviour” is you.  I have never said that once.  I don’t bring up how the victim should change a criminal’s behavior, only how they can react to it.  That’s a huge, HUGE, difference then what you are stating.

    But YOU’RE suggestion ’implies’ that women aren’t doing enough to prevent rape from happening to them.

    It does no such thing.  I have only pointed out that things can be done, not that they had to be done, or that failing to do them transfers any amount of criminal responsibility onto the victim.

    Again your standard seems to be that pointing out anything useful as a deterant or defense against any crime is victim blaming, what I reject.

  • cpalmer9

    First of all, I feel the best defense is a handgun, not martial arts (though martial arts sure makes a good supplement).  Martial arts has its limitations depending on the stature of the user, the number of opponents, and whether or not they are armed, but that’s another issue.

    You are really missing the point here.  No, there isn’t any magic, works-every-time method that will protect you in every situation.  Anyone who thinks that is kidding themselves.  But the fact that there is no perfect solution doesn’t mean there arn’t any effectives ones.

    Seatbelts don’t prevent all auto injuries, fire estinguishers don’t put out all fires,  and life jackets don’t prevent all water deaths.  But the fact that they don’t work every time is no reason to reject them completely.  The same is true for other protective measures.

  • squirrely-girl

    … if you want it to be relevant to the discussion of rape.

    Seatbelts don’t prevent all auto injuries, fire estinguishers don’t put out all fires,  and life jackets don’t prevent all water deaths.

    This would be a reasonable analogy if there were another person purposefully hitting your car causing the accident and injury… or another person purposefully starting fires where you’d need that extinguisher… or some jerk purposefully throwing people in lakes without their consent. In each of these scenarios no person in their right mind would chastise the victim for not taking “appropriate precautions” against a rogue psychopath… 

     

    But the fact that they don’t work every time is no reason to reject them completely.

    Nobody is rejecting reasonable precautions for activities with an element of danger (driving cars, swimming/boating). But there is no comparable situation in which rape should “be expected.” The only common denominator of rape is the narcissistic individual doing the raping, of which the overwhelming experiences are men raping women and girls. The only way for this to truly apply to rape is if women assume ALL MEN are potential rapists and avoid them. Kinda like how “abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control.” But of course you don’t want that now do you?

     

     

    So… until you acknowledge that rape isn’t an “accident” or act of God (like many car accidents, fires, and drownings) but rather the intentional sexual assault of one person by another… well, your analogy will continue to fail and many people here will continue to call you a rape apologist.

     

    What is rape apology?

    When you tell women to “carry guns” you are saying that “men just rape” and the womenfolk should just “expect it” and be prepared to defend ourselves with lethal force rather than expect society to change. You are also perpetuating a disgusting rape myth that it is strangers rather than those closest to us that are likely to be the rapist. 

     

    And you wonder why people don’t appreciate your mansplainin’…

     

  • squirrely-girl

    Given this…

    …your repeated volleys of ‘that doesn’t convince me’ as though the other posters here have an obligation to educate you…

     

    I’d suggest…

    Those do indicate narcissistic troll.

  • squirrely-girl

    … start questioning what makes rape nearly inevitable and unavoidable on the part of society and the perpetrators? 

     

    Just a thought…

  • hanie

    The proper response, since you’ve asked so politely and all, is to acknowledge that an entire rape culture exists that supports men raping women.  Even men who are not rapists support this culture and enable those men who are rapists, which is what you do here when expect women to stop their own rapes, when you mansplain about how wrong the author is when she is absolutely dead on sadly, horrifyingly right, and when you argue about stupid ass guns when the author has told you that 73% of rapes are committed by men we don’t expect to need to use a gun on.

    Therefore, the proper response from you, a man, is to vow to read all you can about rape culture and the many ways it oppresses and damages women.  The next proper response is to vow to do everything in your power to dismantle the male privilege that supports and enables this culture.  Then the proper response is to stop expecting women to prevent their own rapes and start expecting MEN to prevent the rapes, starting with your own role in the culture.  Shut up and listen is the proper response from you right now, actually.

    If any of you spent as much time advising your jerkoff friends about rape culture when they’re objectifying women as you have lecturing us we’d be well on our way.  Will you do that?  Or no?

     

  • arekushieru

    Will you marry me, Hanie?  :D 

  • arekushieru

    I agree, but I never said any such thing.  I have made it clear from the beginning the only person responsible for criminal behavior is the criminal.  But the fact that is the criminal’s responsibily doesn’t mean there isn’t anything the victim could ever do to protect themselves.  That would be a default postion of unconditional surrender, which I do not accept.

    …And look up placing responsibility on the victim to change the perpetrator’s behaviour.  You are not stating this as a personal or an individual choice.  You are unilaterally equating reduction in the numbers of rapes with victim’s responses to a sexual assault.  And, if you can’t see that, I can’t help you.

    I don’t mean my own personal examples, I mean real stories of other people.  Yes they are anecdotes, and not stats, but I wasn’t making a statistical argument, just pointing out that certain defensive measures can be effective and real life examples prove it to be so.

     

    Then why even mention them, because I can give real life examples of these situations NOT working.  See my response to crowepps, below, which will be visible, shortly.

    What one would think isn’t the issue here.  The issue is what studies show, and that’s that men are more likely to be victims of violent crime overall.  If you have reason to dispute that, then show me some studies that say otherwise.  I have never found any.

    You are the one with the original claim, and I pointed out why it was still unproven.  Please do find some sites that rectify those problems.  Then, maybe, we can do a ‘back-and-forth’.

    Even if one were to accept the possibility that rape could be abolished, which I don’t, you still admit it would take longer then a millenium.  That means the protective measures I advocate will be necessary that whole time.  One does not need to adress the “core issues” to use protective measures effectively.  Again, that would be a position of unconditional surrender.

    Actually, no, they won’t.  As we’ve pointed out over and over, these methods just don’t work, full stop. 

    “A position of unconditional surrender”…?  And you still don’t see how that is not a personal or individual but unilateral position?

    Point to where I said that in any comment I made on this article.  You won’t find it.  You will find tons of times I state that criminals are the only ones responsible for crime.

    You really have a hard time with context, don’t you?  As in, it’s not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it?

    You really are missing the point here.  The point is not to establish who is responsible, as that is already clear.  The point is to accept as default that it is the criminal and move on to what can be done about it.  Stating that there are things that can be done doesn’t transfer responsibility to the victim.

    Again, context is everything.

    There you go again.  The only person mentoning “responsibility on the victim to change another’s behaviour” is you.  I have never said that once.  I don’t bring up how the victim should change a criminal’s behavior, only how they can react to it.  That’s a huge, HUGE, difference then what you are stating.

    And, again, unilateral vs personal or individual….

    It does no such thing.  I have only pointed out that things can be done, not that they had to be done, or that failing to do them transfers any amount of criminal responsibility onto the victim.

    ….  Just read above.

    Again your standard seems to be that pointing out anything useful as a deterant or defense against any crime is victim blaming, what I reject.

    And what *I* reject, is your standard that pointing out anything useful as a deterrant or defense mechanism is NOT victim-blaming when it’s applied as a unilateral decision… rather than a personal or individual one.

  • colleen

    Right anyone who presents scathing assessment of the article at hand must be considered a troll.

    go away

  • arekushieru

    but I think after the first couple days the hundreds or deaths or injuries would cause a backlash.  In addition, your assertion that law enforcement and juries would be sympathetic to a plea of self-defense is not supported by the convictions and lengthy sentences in cases where women with a documented history of being beaten finally fight back and kill their abusers.

    You mean convictions such as this: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Semenovich+pleads+guilty+manslaughter+death+husband/3777322/story.html;

    …right (which happened in the city in which I live)?

  • plume-assassine

    Cpalmer9,

     

    Comparing rape/sexual assault to accidents such as a car crash or house fire [Rape is never an accident], or comparing rape to burglary/armed robbery [I am not an unlocked house full of valuable goods. My body is not an object] indicates a huge undercurrent of ignorance about what rape actually is and totally ignores the reality of its emotional and physical devastation.

     

    Taking the stance that guns will solve all problems places a personal responsibility on the victim. Why? Because if she didn’t have a gun, or if she fails to use the gun, people will ask her, “Why not? Why did you fail to do what you were supposed to do to protect yourself?” and therefore makes it easier to blame her for not preventing her own rape. “Oh, honey, if you’d only had/used a gun, he wouldn’t have raped you…” Sound familiar? “Oh, honey, if you hadn’t worn that short skirt, he wouldn’t have raped you…” Yeah.

     

    No, it wouldn’t have happened if there wasn’t such a pervasive rape culture (which functions neatly within an overall violent culture), replete with rapist enablers and victim-blamers, and an undercurrent of aggresive media telling everyone that objectification is the sexual norm.

     

    And not to mention that, statistically speaking, I am most likely to be raped by the man closest to me. Not a stranger popping out of the bushes. No, not even an acquaintance. Most women are raped by their boyfriend, husband, father, brother, best friend…  (The fact that you even mentioned someone having a concealed gun on their person during a hypothetical makeout session gone awry is indicative that you really. do not. get. it.)

     

    Personally, I dislike the defeated tone of the article too, but I think the author has many excellent points. And I believe that if she truly fears that rape is inevitable in her lifetime, then the most proactive thing WE can do for her (and WITH her) is to dismantle the rape culture that threatens her. I don’t believe that she is just sitting back waiting for it to happen, as you seem to believe, because she has written this article as a way of addressing the problem (and, I assume, she is aso a feminist activist). That is a proactive step toward informing our society and igniting discussion. Telling her to just carry a gun is not.

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    And not to mention that, statistically speaking, I am most likely to be raped by the man closest to me. Not a stranger popping out of the bushes. No, not even an acquaintance. Most women are raped by their boyfriend, husband, father, brother, best friend…  (The fact that you even mentioned someone having a concealed gun on their person during a hypothetical makeout session gone awry is indicative that you really. do not. get. it.)

     

    Extremely good point.  Even if someone had a gun on them when they were raped by someone who was close to them (a friend, a boyfriend, a husband, an uncle), would they be able to use it?  Maybe some people would, but I can imagine for many women the combined shock of being betrayed in such a way and the complicated emotions which result in being raped by someone you care about/love would make many unable to actually shoot such a person.  When my high school boyfriend raped me, all I could think was wait, what the fuck, this isn’t right, you’re not supposed to be doing this–I might as well have been paralyzed.  “Shoot the bastard” might work in stranger-rape cases, but that’s not the majority.

  • genevieve-dusquesne

    Now who’s the one being naive?  That’s a total utopain fantasy.

    Of course you’d say that–you admit that nothing that has been tried has worked, and then dismiss the one solution that hasn’t been given an opportunity to work.  Nothing works if not given the chance to do so.  So, if I’m to take you in good faith, you’ve acknowledged that there’s a problem with the prevalence of rape in our culture, you’ve acknowledged that at this point there’s no easy way of eradicating it, you’ve dismissed proposed long-term solutions, and you think that people who are discussing it realistically as the problem it is are whining and defeatist: all of this combined leads me to believe that you don’t actually believe that rape is a problem that the people of the world need to spend our time trying to solve, and that you think we’d be better-ser ved if we stopped even discussing it, thereby sweeping it even more under the rug of shame than it is so that you can pretend it never happens. 

     

    No thanks.  Even if eradication through education is a fantasy, I’d rather keep it, at least it will allow me to play some part through my interactions with people I am close to, or with the children I might have someday.

  • pilar608

    I can imagine for many women the combined shock of being betrayed in such a way and the complicated emotions which result in being raped by someone you care about/love would make many unable to actually shoot such a person.

    Exactly what I was trying to point out somewhere above, but didn’t put it half so well–that betrayal is disorienting, and I can well imagine that someone just trying to make sense of what is happening wouldn’t exactly be reaching for a gun and pulling the trigger.

  • pilar608

    I understand that, but protective measure can be taken, whether the rapist is somone you know or not.  The fact that it probably will be someone you know is not cause for giving up and hoping for the best, which is what the author of this article is doing.

    Is that all she is doing?  

     

    I think there is a place for this kind of article, one that doesn’t offer protection tips or “empowerful” words or any such thing.  I think there is a place for this kind of article, one that just looks at and deals with the reality of living in a culture that condones and sometimes encourages rape.

     

    Because no matter what sort of protective tip is offered, it may or may not work, depending upon the man who has decided to rape, the person he has decided to rape, their relationship (if any), and a million other factors.  You can read that as being defeatist if you choose.  It’s also just reality.

     

    I get that it makes you uncomfortable.  I get that you’d rather focus on the illusion of risk reduction or the delusion that any woman can “defeat” any attempted rape if only she does A, B, and/or C.

     

    As has been pointed out time and time again, we’ve tried that.  We’ve tried that and tried that and are still trying it.  The author herself is trying that–read the first part of her article again.  The point is, it isn’t working.  The point is, despite all our efforts at risk reduction and mind reading, women still get raped at an alarming rate.  Women still get raped and are still blamed for their rape, because they “weren’t careful enough” or “didn’t fight back hard enough” or whatever else people want to say to hide the fact that if someone really, really wants to hurt you, most of the time they will find a way.

     

    And you’re right.  Social change and education will never eradicate rape.  What it can do, though, is drop the number of rapes.  It can eliminate a culture where the police harshly interrogate the victim of a rape, because they assume that she’s lying.  It can eliminate a culture where grown men think it’s just dandy to holler “I raped you!” over a video game headset.  It can eliminate the times on TV where a person calls something “not a rape-rape.”  

     

    Or in other words, education and social change can eliminate the social support structure for rape.

     

    And step one, IMO, is telling people that things are not just fine the way they are.

  • katwa

    You know, I know quite a few women who are raped, and in NONE of them would a handgun have helped.

     

    The women I know who were raped were raped by their boyfriends, husbands, brothers, babysitters, friends, fathers, stepfathers, coworkers or bosses. Most were raped before they were adults. I have never actually met a woman who did not know who her attacker was. I can’t think of one situation where a gun would have been any help.

     

    Are you seriously suggesting we should all keep a gun on us at all times? While we sleep? Do you give your daughter a gun to keep under her pillow in case her brother decides to rape her? Do you keep a gun on you while you shower in case your husband decides to rape you?

     

    Since most men are NOT rapists, but there is no way to tell, you’d have to live in fear your whole life, and have a gun on you at all times. It’s not really possible.

     

    I’m pretty sure seatbelts prevent more deaths than guns prevent rapes. In fact, seatbelts increase your chances of living in an accident 60%-70%!

    http://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/vehicle/generaldriver/safetybelt.shtml

     

  • katwa

    I was raped by people I thought were my friends, even if i had a gun and was able to shoot them, I don’t think I could have. They might be able to hurt me, but I wouldn’t have been able to kill them for it. I would rather have been raped than attempt to kill them.

     

    considering they claimed we were in a “fight” and no one believed me anyway (they claimed oral rape was “impossible”), I would have gotten in serious trouble if i actually shot one of them. not to mention expelled for having a gun at school. as it was we were all suspended for “fighting” (my school didn’t care who started it, their policy was suspension for all caught fighting. i guess fighting against rape is not allowed)

  • crowepps

    Personally, I dislike the defeated tone of the article to

    And yet I wonder what actually provides more real assistance to a woman becoming aware of her lifetime risk of rape?  Will she REALLY be better off if she continues in the delusion that if SHE is raped everyone will believe her immediately, shame and blame won’t be issues, the police will aggressively investigate, nonjudgmental medical care will prevent unwanted pregnancy and STD’s, and the courts will lock the bad guy up?

     

    Doesn’t leaving her in ignorance just compound the stunned disbelief of having been raped by adding another layer of stunned disbelief that people keep implying that it’s all her own fault because “she should have known better” or “she should have been more careful” or “she should have gotten a gun and protected herself”?

     

    I’m actually kind of surprised that we ahaven’t had a guy show up on here complaining that HE’S not a rapist and HE thinks she’s being all emotional and oversensitive because she shouldn’t be implying that ALL MEN should be treated as though they MIGHT be rapists and women don’t have any right to HURT HIS FEELINGS by rejecting him because he’s just SOCIALLY CHALLENGED and that’s not his fault.  All of which, considering the high tolerance for sexist objectification and the expression of same, means it’s pretty much impossible for even the smartest of women to sort out the rapists from the jerks.

  • cpalmer9

    “Your series of posts add up to “if those women would just follow my sound advice to carry concealed they wouldn’t get raped; by failing to carry concealed (be sober/avoid men/stay home) they’re part of the problem“. 

    But that’s not what I said at all.  I have, on multiple occations, stating there is no one perfect magical “works every time” solution that would protect a person in every situation.  However, the lack of a perfect solution does not mean there is a lack of effective ones.

    Furthermore, I never said any victim was “part of the problem”.  In the context of crime, the only people who are part of the problem are the criminals, as well as anyone else who assists them.  I was not adressing who was part of the problem, but rather what could be done about.  One does not have to be “part of the problem” to come up with a effective (though not perfect) solution.

    “I agree with you that if every idiot who feels women are objects who exist so he can fantasize about them had a .44 stuck up his nose every time he told a classmate or coworker she looked ‘hot’ or complimented a stranger’s cleavage it would improve the level of civility in the world, but I think after the first couple days the hundreds or deaths or injuries would cause a backlash.”

    Whoa slow down a bit.  First of all, a .44 is not a good concealed carry weapon since most of them are too big to be carried comfortably, especially by a small framed woman.  Second of all, I wasn’t talking about anything like that, just the lawful use of deadly force, which can only be used to prevent death or serious bodily harm (I think everyone here agrees rape falls into that catagory).  Finally, most cases of firearm self defense do not result in killing the attacker.

     

     In addition, your assertion that law enforcement and juries would be sympathetic to a plea of self-defense is not supported by the convictions and lengthy sentences in cases where women with a documented history of being beaten finally fight back and kill their abusers.

    I have not seen any stastical evidence that the majority of people who injure or kill in self defense are convicted anyway.  Yes I have seen examples, but those are probably just the normal aspects of what will always be an imperfect system.  Still, based on what I’ve seen, I think the system gets it right most of the time.

  • cpalmer9

    I get that it makes you uncomfortable.  I get that you’d rather focus on the illusion of risk reduction or the delusion that any woman can “defeat” any attempted rape if only she does A, B, and/or C.

    When did I ever say any rape attempt could be defeated all the time?  I didn’t.  Of course there is no method that is perfect, but the lack of perfect methods doesn’t mean there is a lack of effective ones.  It’s like saying no one should use seatbelts because they don’t always prevent auto accident injuries.  The fact that something doesn’t work all the time doesn’t mean it won’t work ever. 

    I think there is a place for this kind of article, one that just looks at and deals with the reality of living in a culture that condones and sometimes encourages rape.

    The problem to me is that it looks at it as though nothing can be done about it except wonder who your rapist will be and hope it happends a certain way.  I find that to be an uneccesarily dismal postion (as well as flat out wrong).  How is it any different then wondering who your robber, embezzler, or murderer will be and hoping they will carry out their crimes a certain way?  The fact that we live in a world where all sorts of bad things can and do happen is no reason to have such a dreary and defeatist outlook.

     

    And you’re right.  Social change and education will never eradicate rape.  What it can do, though, is drop the number of rapes.  It can eliminate a culture where the police harshly interrogate the victim of a rape, because they assume that she’s lying.  It can eliminate a culture where grown men think it’s just dandy to holler “I raped you!” over a video game headset.  It can eliminate the times on TV where a person calls something “not a rape-rape.”  

    I think your video game headset example is rather poor.  People shout “I killed you” or some veriation of that term all the time and no one complains that it promotes murder.

    Everything else you say is pretty much true.  I’ve never disputed it.  My point is that is a supplement to personal defense, not a replacement of it.  So whenever I talk about a useful defensive measure and someone says “we don’t need that, just education and reform”, I can’t help but roll my eyes.  Just as personel defensive measures won’t work every time, neither will education and reform.

    Or in other words, education and social change can eliminate the social support structure for rape.  And step one, IMO, is telling people that things are not just fine the way they are.

    Agreed, but not in the context of someone being a garunteed victim as though being a victim of such a crime is vitually assured and nothing can be done.  And hoping it will happen a certain way?  How does that help?  That was my interpretation of this article and that was the issue I was adressing.

  • cpalmer9

    Taking the stance that guns will solve all problems places a personal responsibility on the victim.

    Except I never took any such stance.  I’m not even going to bother to elaborate further since I’ve done it so many times here that my typing fingers are getting sore.  Just look at the other posts and you’ll see what I mean.

  • cpalmer9

    I was raped by people I thought were my friends, even if i had a gun and was able to shoot them, I don’t think I could have. They might be able to hurt me, but I wouldn’t have been able to kill them for it. I would rather have been raped than attempt to kill them.

    I understand that position and I don’t hold it against you.  I would agree that anyone who can’t bring themselves to take a life in self defense should never carry a gun.

    However, for the record, I must point out that the vast majority of cases of firearm self defense do not involve killing anyone.  Usually just pointing the gun at someone is enough.  And when the gun has to be fired, the results are usually not fatal hits.

  • cpalmer9

    Of course you’d say that–you admit that nothing that has been tried has worked, and then dismiss the one solution that hasn’t been given an opportunity to work.

    I don’t know about that.  We may not be doing all we can when it comes to education, but I think the message that rape is a crime and totally unacceptable is already pretty strong.

    Of course there is more that can be done.  There always is.  But the notion that it hasn’t been given any chance at all seems rather dubious.

     

    you’ve dismissed proposed long-term solutions, and you think that people who are discussing it realistically as the problem it is are whining and defeatist

    I did no such thing.  Long term solutions like education and social reform are great.  I’m all for them.  I’m just still realistic enough to know they won’t completely abolish rape or any other crime

    all of this combined leads me to believe that you don’t actually believe that rape is a problem that the people of the world need to spend our time trying to solve

    That’s not it at all.  Yes it’s problem that we should work on solving.  I just know it won’t be completely abolished, as no type of crime ever has.  One can be productive in trying to solve a problem while having a realistic view of the outcome.  In fact, I would argue realistically looking at the outcome is a requirement of effective problem solving.

    and that you think we’d be better-ser ved if we stopped even discussing it, thereby sweeping it even more under the rug of shame than it is so that you can pretend it never happens. 

    The fact that I’ve spent so much time here discussing it seems to contradict that, doesn’t it?  Why would I spend so much time talking about something if I don’t want it discussed?  That makes no sense. 

    If you go back to my first post, you will see I never complained about the subject of the article, only the bleak outlook and hopelessly gloomy presentation.  Contrary to your claims, my main issue with this article is that it doesn’t help solve the problem, not that it talks about it. 

  • crowepps

    “I agree with you that if every idiot who feels women are objects who exist so he can fantasize about them had a .44 stuck up his nose every time he told a classmate or coworker she looked ‘hot’ or complimented a stranger’s cleavage it would improve the level of civility in the world, but I think after the first couple days the hundreds or deaths or injuries would cause a backlash.”

    Whoa slow down a bit.  First of all, a .44 is not a good concealed carry weapon since most of them are too big to be carried comfortably, especially by a small framed woman.  Second of all, I wasn’t talking about anything like that, just the lawful use of deadly force, which can only be used to prevent death or serious bodily harm (I think everyone here agrees rape falls into that catagory).  Finally, most cases of firearm self defense do not result in killing the attacker.

    Under Alaska law, preventing rape is specifically included as an appropriate case where the use of deadly force is appropriate.  It seems to me if women are going to get SERIOUS about preventing rape, then women are going to need to be alert and react to pre-rape behaviors like unwanted comments about their bodies or aggressive staring or flirting in inappropriate situations or being approached by male strangers and ordered to “SMILE, Beautiful!” and be PROACTIVE about defending themselves.  Considering the statistics, it seems to me entirely reasonable for women to lock and load as a reaction to the unwanted approach of ANY male stranger.

     

    Now it would be great if you were right, and every time a girl whipped out that dainty .22 auto the men backed off, but I don’t think that’s likely to happen until they understand that women really WILL shoot.  I’ll agree that most cases of self-defense don’t end with a death but considering the millions and millions of instances where unwanted behavior that could be considered a precursor to rape happen every single day in this country, if actually shooting was necessary in only 1% of 1% of cases there would be a LOT of bodies in the ER and the morgue.  Not that we’d miss them.

  • colleen

    but I think the message that rape is a crime and totally unacceptable is already pretty strong

    If that were true the US would not be such a rape prone culture. It’s outrageous that 1 out of 4 women or girls in this country are raped at some point in their lives. It’s outrageous that rape in prison is so pervasive and acceptable.

    This is a cultural problem and a male problem, rape isn’t anywhere near so pervasive and common in more civilized countries. Babbling away about  little lady-like guns and shooting rapists and how women need to change our behavior is such bullshit. American men rape because they almost always get away with it and because they’re raised to think of women as something lower than themselves. Just like you do.

    You should be speaking to men. But that wouldn’t be nearly so entertaining, now would it?

     

  • plume-assassine

    You’re right, here’s what I meant to say…

     

    Taking the stance that carrying a gun is the best solution for solving the problem of rape places a personal responsibility on the victim. It makes it easier to blame the victim for what transpired if they refused to carry a gun or refused to use it.

  • katwa

    it has the possibility of being fatal. And if I said I was able to shoot them, would you recommend me carry a gun to school at 16?

  • cpalmer9

    Of course not, the legal age for purchasing a handgun from a dealer and getting a CCW permit is 21, to say nothing of the fact that nearly all schools, including colleges, ban CCW.

    People here seem to misunderstand me.  I didn’t say guns solve all problems in regards to rape (no single measure can).  Obviously they are no good for people not old enough to own them, and no good in “gun free zones” where CCW is not permitted.  It was just one example I cited of a personel protective measure that is extremely effective for those old enough to legally own them (as the author of this article is).  The point was orginially made in response to this article, which was written by someone old enough to own guns and get a CCW permit.

    It was never my intention to imply that guns are the perfect solution to rape for people of all ages and I apologize if I accidentally gave that impression.

  • cpalmer9

    American men rape because they almost always get away with it and because they’re raised to think of women as something lower than themselves. Just like you do.

    That’s such a ludicrously unfounded insult that it doesn’t even warrant a response.  It’s truley pathetic that no discussion about the problem of rape and what can be done about it can’t be held without the labels of “rape apologist” or “victim blamer” being thrown around so groundlessly.

  • colleen

    It’s truley pathetic that no discussion about the problem of rape and what can be done about it can’t be held without the labels of “rape apologist” or “victim blamer” being thrown around so groundlessly.

     

    What’s truely pathetic is that you’ve been trying to pick a fight here since before Christmas.

  • arekushieru

    If you don’t think of women as something lower than men, then WHY, FFS, are you trying to create a situation where women CAN be subjected to more victim-blaming, hmmm…?

  • colleen

    the legal age for purchasing a handgun from a dealer and getting a CCW permit is 21, to say nothing of the fact that nearly all schools, including colleges, ban CCW.

    Because rapists are cowardly scum who prey on the young and vulnerable, more than half of all rapes occur before age 18 so that leaves out a precious CCW permit as a ‘solution’ in preventing the majority of rapes.

    It was just one example I cited of a personel protective measure that is extremely effective for those old enough to legally own them

    It was the sole ‘personel protective measure’ you offered up and we’ve pointed out repeatedly that shooting a rapist in order to prevent the overwhelming majority of rapes will almost always result in a long jail sentence for the shooter.

    I know! Why not convince men to stop raping women and little girls?

  • princess-rot

    Is it so hard to take responsibility for everything and modify your behavior to mollify (possibly violently, if you have to) every man and boy so they don’t have to think? Is it so hard to make all the work you do to try and meet these impossible responsibilities invisible so we don’t have to discuss uncomfortable subjects like rape culture and why the bar for being a decent person if you’re a man is set so low?

  • crowepps

    And yet your statements about “the problem of rape” seem to ignore the behavior of the rapist (won’t ever get rid of rape — because it’s ‘natural’ male behavior?), and focus your solutions to the “problem of rape” on changing the behaviors of the victims (victim blaming – if only she had/hadn’t then it wouldn’t have happened).  And although this has been pointed out to you many MANY times you still can’t seem to grasp that.

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