HuffPo’s Divorce Section: No Room for Reason on Domestic Violence?

The Huffington Post, in an effort to beef up its divorce section, is featuring controversial psychologist and author, Richard Warshak. In his first column “Stop Divorce Poison,” Warshak speaks of the equally controversial topic of parental alienation (PA); he or HuffPo have censored comments made by domestic violence advocates and survivors, and many of the remaining comments espouse misinformation, stereotypes, and sexist remarks.

Why should this concern women and those in the reproductive rights community?

“Parent Alienation,” the idea that one parent (typically the mother) poisons the mind of the child against the other parent, is dangerous because it casts doubt on mothers’ claims of child abuse; the more she tries to protect her child and gather evidence, the more she exhibits “parental alienation.” If she fails–and she’ll face an uphill battle fighting bias, paying exhorborant fees, and fearing for her child(ren)’s safety trying to succeed–she can be fined, jailed and/or she could lose custody. PAS can and has turned the table on women trying to protect themselves or their child(ren) from abuse. (Several cases that have received media attention can be found here, here, and here.

We fight for rights during pregnancy; we can’t leave women in the dust after they deliver. Villifying a protective mother, jailing her or taking her offspring is the worse you can do to a woman – abusers understand this, it’s time we do, too.

Warshak and the idea of PA

Warshak starts off with, “Mother Theresa does not marry Saddam Hussein.” But then we would have to ask, what was Hussein’s wife like?, because Warshak is making a comparison between spouses. Perhaps she was no Mother Theresa, but surely she wasn’t as evil as Saddam.  Already we have an imbalance. All human beings can exhibit evil or wrong-doing, but not all humans are equal in this respect, as Warshak wants us to believe. Some are worse than others.  And while women are far from perfect, many women in abusive relationships fall in love with a guy only to find out months or years later that he is abusive. Abusers, unfortunately, don’t come with a sign on their forehead.

Warshak then explains that parents who alienate their child(ren) cannot “harness the emotions unleashed by divorce and they exhibit “rage,” “enlist children as allies,” and use “bad-mouthing, lies, exaggerations…,” which Warshak likens to political mud-slinging campaigns. Some parents may deliberately or inadvertently denigrate the other parent. This may be evident in their parenting skills, but the main problem with PA is that it’s indistinguishable from the fear that comes from an abusive situation and can harm protective parents while rewarding abusive ones.

Jay Silverman’s study at Harvard, as reported in Newsweek, found 54 percent of custody cases were in favor of the batterer and nearly every case used parental alienation to counter the claims of abuse.

Warshak’s belief that “abused children cling tightly to their abuser” must explain why he seeks to reunite children with potential abusers then. Warshak runs a “treatment facility” in Texas that, for the whopping price tag of $40,000, reunites child(ren), at times forcibly, with the denigrated parent. I’ve included a link to a case in Canada, where an alienated mother, who had the financial resources, sought to reunify with her sons at his center. Note Warshak never actually met the sons but called it alienation nonetheless.

Domestic violence advocates and censorship

The domestic violence community, along with many major medical and psychological associations, and the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges, rejects PA as a legitimate diagnosis. At least eight of us, representing domestic violence advocates and survivors, tried to post comments on Warshak’s article explaining our position. While a few posts remained, most, in our supposition, were deleted because they disagreed with the author. One advocate was banned. Apparently, this is not the first time people have complained about the comment section of the Huffington Post.

Nearly all the comments were citations to research, quotes and other factual information, including how PAS does not meet the standard of scientific reliability, about Warshak’s reunification center and its $40,000 price tag, and quotes from experts in the field, among other comments calling into question his analysis.

I included this quote from Dr. Paul Fink, President of the Leadership Council on Child Abuse and Interpersonal Violence and a former President of the Amercian Psychiatric Association:

“PAS is junk science at its worst…Science tells us that the most likely reason that a child becomes estranged from a parent is that parent’s own behavior. Labels, such as PAS, serve to deflect attention away from those behaviors.” 

Mothers have informed us that when they make a good faith allegation, it is they who are doubted (see, for instance, cases such as those of Katie Tagle, where the judge called her a liar, gave the ex custody, and her baby was murdered by its father; or Amy Castillo, another woman who was denied a protective order and lost three children when her ex-husband drowned them in a hotel bathtub) and labeled abusive or ordered to undergo a polygraph test or psychiatric evaluation. The stereotype that women lie to gain the upperhand in custody cases, which occurs in only a fraction of cases, has more branding power than do mere facts. According to research, men in cases where both abuse and custody are in question actually make more false claims, according to research. The American Bar Association provides further information on custody myths.

Poisonous comments

Many of us understand the origins of PA are rooted in the misogynist and pro-pedophilia attitudes of Dr. Richard Gardner, who thought the mass sexual-abuse hysteria was caused by vindictive women falsely accusing fathers of abuse. (8) In reality, many protective parents feel as if this were a witchhunt against them — mothers are not trusted, they’ve cast a spell on the kids to hate Dad –they must be punished! Jail them! Fine them! Take away their children! Like the “witches” of long past who would either sink or swim, mothers are in a similar bind – if they report abuse, they’re punished for being an alienator; if they don’t report it, they can be punished for failure to report. 

Meanwhile, many of the alienating behaviors readers commented on can be attributed to personalities, parenting skills, or, in cases of abuse, domestic violence by proxy, whereby one parent continues to exert control and/or abuse over another. One advocate keeps a blog of parents that kill their child(ren) in cases pertaining to divorce and custody. She’s up to 136. Despite the fact that these marriages ended, the domestic violence continues and these deaths would be classified as domestic violence fatalities.Overwhelmingly, these killings are committed by men – with no tango partner, Mr. Warshak. In other words, party of one. 

You can tell from the comment section how much these guys like women. If they got together, I can just imagine them in a big smokey room with leather chairs giving each other the wink and nod about the comment pertaining to Mother Theresa and Saddam Hussein. The idea of ‘equality with a vengeance’ comes to mind.  

One poster, Target NoMore, refers to those opposing PA as a ‘special interest group’ that doesn’t want to stop the problem. People who want to protect children are not “special interest groups.”

If HuffPo is going to feature controversial authors whose work is not only rejected by the scientific community but also puts children at risk, why not at least allow evidence to be introduced in the comments section? What are they afraid of?

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  • ray2447

    The taxpayer funded domestic violence industry has a long history of censorship and discrimination against men.  Women’s domestic violence against men is grossly under reported, while male victims are still routinely being ignored by the taxpayer funded domestic violence industry.  Credible research overwhelmingly shows that the ratio of d.v. is at least 50/50 between women & men. According to one study by researchers who work at the CDC, in 70% of domestic violence incidents, where the domestic violence is not mutual, it’s women who initiate the domestic violence.  The taxpayer funded domestic violence industry has largely mischaracterized the true nature of d.v. from the beginning and continues to mislead the public. D.V. law follows a gender feminist agenda/ideology over facts in evidence and does great harm to many innocent men (and also many battering women who need help) as shown in “Los Misandry” at Youtube.

  • ray2447

    Little children are least able to contend with domestic violence in their families.  According to the U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services and DOJ statistics, more kids are killed by neglect and abuse in a year (1,760 in 2007), than all the female intimate partner homicides in a year.  Mothers are the single largest group of kid killers, according to HHS and they have a rate twice that of fathers.   Nowhere near the money is spent to protect kids from kid killing mothers as is spent by the domestic violence industry to protect women.  A lot of innocent men are witch-hunted by the corrupt, gender feminist influenced, taxpayer funded, domestic violence industry. Involving the corrupt d.v. industry in an attempt to prevent abusive and neglectful deaths of children is a big mistake.  No place better characterizes the corruption of the taxpayer funded, domestic violence industry than “Los Misandry” at Youtube.


  • ray2447

    V.P. Biden recently called violence against women, “the very worst abuse.”  The very worst abuse is valuing one life less than another for having been born the wrong sex, or being the wrong age group. Under Biden’s Violence Against Women Act the wrong sex is men and the wrong age group is children.  Shelter and services are virtually non-existent for male victims of domestic violence and their children so those options out of a bad relationship, that are routinely available to women, are very often not available to men. Men wind up gender profiled and often falsely accused by the taxpayer funded, d.v. industry, because of gender feminist ideology controlling the d.v. industry.  Men are often battered by domestic violence, and then battered again by the taxpayer funded, domestic violence industry as shown in “Los Misandry” at Youtube.

  • trish-wilson

    Thank you for a very important article, Ms. Dawson. I was one of the people censored at the Huffington Post when I posted research showing that parental alienation is junk science not recognized as valid by the medical and legal establishments. I also commented that despite massive lobbying by father’s rights and pro-alienation proponents that parental alienation was rejected for inclusion in the DSM-V, the Bible of psychiatry. My comments were deleted without just cause.


    It’s important for the general public to know that parental alienation is a weapon used by abusive fathers to punish abused mothers and children for speaking out and seeking help to stop abuse. The Huffington Post is seriously amiss in censoring criticism of parental alienation whilst letting the feel-good pro-PA comments stay up. I even saw criticism of me and other domestic violence and mother’s rights activists in those comments – but we were being censored from responding.

  • juliejulie

    I appreciate your article, but please understand that there are some cases where Hostile Aggressive Parenting by an angry parent does lead to Parental Alienation from a perfectly good and upstanding parent.  There are some cases where the parent practicing Hostile Aggressive Parenting is really just incapable of dealing with their own emotions or the world, (they score similar to a bipolar individual on MMPII), and is in fact trying to alienate the children from the other parent just because they are “the other”… not because the other parent is dangerous or bad, just because the HAP parent is jealous.  I have seen this happen, I have particularly seen these type of people using every ounce of the system to attempt to sever the relationship of the children with the other parent.  Often, the same psychological attributes that allow a person to attempt to alienate the children from the other parent are the same traits that led to the divorce.    Parental Alienation and Hostile Aggressive Parenting are real, they hurt everyone, the perpertrators need help, and any claim that this is not a real problem is just as offensive as not protecting people from domestic violence.  I’m suprised YOU can’t offer a more balanced response to this issue. 

    Nobody wants to admit that sometimes it is the women, the mothers who are the bad apples but the fact is, not all women are good parents and not all men are bad parents.  Feminism must move forward to help find equal rights for EVERYONE, and in terms of child custody, there are many good fathers out there who need our help.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ You know what dumb-ass, men can get away! Men are physically stronger then women! I have seen men get away from women who were attacking them, I have never seen a woman get away, she cant! I, and most every other little girl I grew up with was sexually terrorized by men! Both your post are man bullshit! You hate feminist because they “talk” about what men do wrong. Were as men (actullly physically rape) women and children, and beat women and children. But as usual in man world, talking about what men do wrong is way, way worse, then men actually physically doing something wrong. Have your side quit forcing women and little girls to give birth against their will when they can not, and do not want to take care of children.~

    ~ My whole childhood all I was ever told was women were made for men, women are to be submissive to men says the bible, wives can not refuse their husbands sex “ever”, if your husband beats you, you can not divorce him, and it is your fault for not being submissive enough like a dog to its master. Pretty cushy set up republican christian men have going there if you ask me.~

    ~ The wrong sex is female, I am used because of my vagina for forced-sex and forced-childbirth, let me tell you it is miserable having the whole world all toooooo excited of wanting to cause you extreme forced genital pain all the time. ~

    ~ Not enough women and little girls raped enough in the world by men for you, you stupid creep! You are just a little crying taliban man.~

    ~ Damn vice President Joe Biden for caring about abused women, doesnt he know that is going to piss-off the republicans and christians. ~

  • crowepps

    I see, professionally, cases where the mother is trying to severe the bonds between the children and the father unreasonably, and agree that, yes, this is sometimes a real problem.  It is exceedingly rare, however, particularly since those unhealthy psychological traits are present BEFORE the relationship starts and men with intelligence don’t have children with women who are mentally ill.  It is certainly nowhere NEAR as common as cases where abusive men are trying to control the children in order to control the mother.


    Your post assumes there is some equivalency, implies that perhaps half the cases are ‘bad mommy’ and seems to urge that all abuse accusations be greeted skeptically, when that is definitely NOT what is reflected in actual research.  My estimate would be perhaps 96% ‘bad daddy’ and at most 4% ‘bad mommy’.  In addition, a success by ‘bad mommy’ at cutting Daddy out of the kids’ lives leads to the kids TEMPORARILY losing contact with Daddy for a few years.  A success by a ‘bad daddy’ leads to — dead Mommy, dead children.  Those outcomes aren’t equivalent either.


    Many, many children don’t want anything to do with Daddy because Daddy isolates the family from others, routinely calls the children and Mommy nasty names, is a dictator, beats Mommy, beats the children, rapes Mommy, rapes the children, and threatens to kill everybody in the family if he doesn’t get his own way 100%.  Their reluctance to be around Daddy is justified because that was Daddy’s behavior in the past, Daddy’s behavior in the past is the best indicator of Daddy’s future behavior, and in case after case that’s exactly what Daddy DOES DO as soon as he can con the courts into giving him unsupervised time with the kids.


    Yes, there are good fathers out there who temporarily lose access to their children.  Those good fathers are being used as an excuse by abusers so that they can gain access to and abuse and kill their own children in order to punish women who flee from them.  I really doubt the good fathers would be willing to be used in that way.

  • nancy-carroll

    To those still convinced all these “labels” belong in the court room, the damage that these people cause to families is horrific.  Psychological tests can be manipulated to match whatever the paid “expert” wants…I know, I have seen it happen to many, many mothers.  I have had confirmation on this in one case in particular from one of the authors of the MMPI-2, Dr. John Graham, who is at Kent State University. 

    I am a child victim of these people that push psychological labels onto battered mothers.  We didn’t have to be told by our mother that she was beaten by our father…we witnessed it frequently, and sometimes the neighbors did too.  But who won custody?  My abusive father!  After he got tired of taking care of us after a year, he split us kids up and shifted us around group and foster homes so my mother couldn’t get access to us.  When she finally started to get us back, us kids were treated like psychological basket cases, with counciling and stupid psych tests (so all those “experts” could make even more money).  The only thing that happened was time was cruelly stolen from us kids and our mother by an abusive father, that was backed up by a corrupt court and paid-for “experts” like Warshak.

    Shame on you people that say all this psychological bullcrap is real.  You are condemning children to a life of hell being placed in the custody of abusers.  Can’t you see that these people like Warshak are making a gold mine off of broken families?  And to have the Huffington Post stand behind this corrupt crook and allow him to delete comments that post factual information that the professional organizations have disseminated is equally as crooked.

    Now my children are with my abuser, and it is the norm now.  So many children are in danger in this country, and the news shows this every day.  Just look at the website Dastardly Dads (  There is a lot to be made in the “parental alienation” scam jackpot, and the Huffington Post and Richard Warshak are only just a part of it.

  • nancy-carroll

    @ juliejulie:  I see your dissenting comment was posted.  Crooked Richard Warshak and the Huffington Post REFUSED to not only post dissenting comments on his self-serving post on so-called “parental alienation” but also refused factual statements on this well known legal tool used by abusers, made by the American Bar Association, the American Judges Association, the National District Attorney’s Association, and the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges, with the latter warning family court judges NOT to accept claims of “parental alienation” or “parental alienation syndrome” because of it’s well known use by abusers to get custody.  These other “labels” you use also have been popularized by abusers and their well-paid “experts.”  This is not a joke.  These organizations along with many credible experts have debunked these “labels” in custody cases.

  • prochoicekatie

    What I hear juliejulie saying is that some women – already suffering from a particular mental illness – may manifest this disorder in making false allegations against the other parent.

    These symptoms – making false allegations – do not represent a NEW mental health condition.

    A woman who has high anxiety and can’t sleep at night also occasionally has flashbacks. We diagnose her with PTSD. We don’t diagnose her with PTSD and “Flashback Syndrome.”

    I agree that women are more likely to obtain full custody, and that a pattern of stereotypes (of men and WOMEN) has led to this bias. However, allegations of abuse are not made in every instance where a woman is given greater custodial rights, so allegations of abuse cannot and should not be used to explain the discrepancy. Allegations of abuse should be taken seriously.

  • colleen

    Terms like ‘Hostile Aggressive Parenting’ are not psychological labels, they’re inventions, fabrications. The APA will be coming out with the DSM-V soon and the term ‘Hostile Aggressive Parenting’ will not be found in it. Neither will ‘Post Abortion Syndrome’.

    As for the Huffpost, It’s become the blog equivalent of a right-leaning cheap tabloid.

  • crowepps

    Alienation can become entrenched when we give a child the power to dictate the terms of contact with a parent. Or, the problem can be nipped in the bud when the court makes it clear that a child’s irrational avoidance of a parent, with the other parent’s blessing, will not be tolerated.

    Was particularly bothered by this phrase in the original article.


    By whose standards is the child’s avoidance of a parent “irrational”?


    Is the idea that a biological relationship conveys on each parent a right to FORCE a child to be in their presence no matter how much the child dislikes or fears them?  Personally, I find it really difficult to imagine how that is  about “the needs of the child” since it ignores any trauma to the child and instead is focused on the “right” of the parent to his/her “property”.


    Especially considering the long, LONG string of parents who celebrate their ‘reunion’ and unsupervised visitation by throwing the kids off a bridge, setting them on fire, shooting them or disappearing with them into the sunset.


    Jean Paul Lacombe is still missing.

    ‘Somebody please help me. He’s not my dad. I don’t want to live with him,’ Jean Paul Lacombe cried as he backed away from the officers. ‘I want to stay with my mum. Please. Please.’

  • crowepps

    I agree that women are more likely to obtain full custody, and that a pattern of stereotypes (of men and WOMEN) has led to this bias.

    Women are more likely to obtain full custody because women are more likely to ASK FOR full custody.  Men are unlikely to ask for full custody and often do not even request JOINT custody. 


    The pattern of custody decisions in DISPUTED cases when full custody is requested is for Mom to get full custody half the time and Dad to get full custody half the time so cases adjudicated by the courts do NOT show any bias.

  • bonnie-russell

    Now that courts across the country and Canda recognize brain-washing, or parental alienation including referencing same in their court decisions,

    those continuing to screech there is no such thing would do well to get a grip.  Interestingly, though, parental alienation is best demonstrated in criminal, rather than civil court.  Patty Hearst, Elizabeth Smart….the beat goes on.

    Not only is Parental alienation is the modern day terminology for the Stockholm Syndrome, but expertly, the lobbyists hired by the National Association of Marriage and Family Therapists in California, attempted to have legislation introducted that would mandate four hours worth of  “Educational Counseling, in the event of any divorce, before the divorce could proceed.

    Due process any one?

    Once again therapists are hijacking too willing courts, in place of common sense. 

    Details at

    The other question is why aren’t cities requiring police protection for those women refused police services?  See request before San Diego City Council






  • crowepps

    Stockholm Syndrome describes paradoxical feelings of approval towards someone who threatens to kill you because they did not do so.  Patty Hearst may have expressed that (or may just have been brainwashed) however Elizabeth Smart NEVER excused the behavior of the whackaloon who kidnapped her. 


    I don’t see how that’s the same as a theory that kids can be convinced by one parent to dislike the other.  Stockholm Syndrome would more correctly describe a continuing attachment by abused children to their abusive parent.


    As to therapists highjacking the Courts, I’ve got to say, if parents were actually mentally healthy and had ‘common sense’ they wouldn’t be getting divorced.

  • quentind

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  • ack

    Ray copies and pastes the same posts on all articles he can find about domestic violence or parental alienation. I’ve seen him on several sites. He doesn’t respond to comments. I read the article he mentions and attempted to discuss the limitations of the study until I realized that he’s a bot.


    I wish he would read your response, though, FBIR.

  • crowepps

    Now that courts across the country and Canda recognize brain-washing, or parental alienation including referencing same in their court decisions,

    Was interested enough in this statement to do a little looking around.  Parental Alienation Syndrome was originally formulated as a defense against accusations of incest and child sexual abuse, with the argument being that the father wasn’t really abusing the kids but that instead the mother must be ‘poisoning the kids’ minds’.  It has been spectacularly UNsuccessful in criminal courts, since it purports to do a psychological ‘truth test’ on children’s testimony (and, of course, get sexual predators off the hook).


    In civil courts, the reception is more mixed.  Many courts ban it altogether, as which the syndrome may describe a set of symptoms it is considered “non-diagnostic”.  In other words, an expert can argue that a child SUFFERS FROM the syndrome (is alienated from a parent), but cannot do more than guess as to the CAUSE (is alienated because of undue influence OR is alienated because parent abused him/her).


    The syndrome is NOT included in 2010 revision of the DSM


    There’s some interesting information here:

  • ack

    The conflation of PA with SS is troubling, but I strongly disagree with this:

    I’ve got to say, if parents were actually mentally healthy and had ‘common sense’ they wouldn’t be getting divorced.


    That’s a pretty judgmental blanket statement to make about all divorces involving children.

  • crowepps

    This is not the place to litigate, or continue to litigate, an individual child custody fight.  The information posted in this kind of forum is publicly available not only to your ex and to the regular participants here, but also to your children and their friends and teachers and acquaintances.  Making negative comments about the children’s other parent in this kind of open forum ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE TRUE is very damaging to the children as is posting guesses as to the other parent’s mental health, motivations, etc.


    Preventing children from being abused is an important issue, as is the right of children to an open and loving relationship with both parents after a divorce.  It is absolutely appropriate to have a public discussion about those issues in generalities.  It is NOT appropriate to post details from one’s own individual cases in a he said/she said manner because although you may be willing to surrender your own privacy you should be wary of surrendering your children’s privacy.

  • rebellious-grrl

    I don’t have children and have never gone through a divorce or a child custody case (thank Goddess) so I wasn’t familiar with the term “hostile aggressive parenting” before but it reeked of MRA propaganda. Thanks

  • crowepps

    Considering the permanent negative effects that divorce is known to have on children, and assuming that the parents involved liked each other enough to choose to get married in the first place, I’ll stand by my statement.  A divorce would not be necessary if there weren’t at least one person who was not willing to make reasonable compromises and demonstrate a minimal level of consideration and respect for the other.


    My attitude is probably colored by the fact that my work is with people who are contesting everything, and also by the fact that as I approach geezerhood, I am not real tolerant of people’s insistence that their personal ‘happiness’ and right to get their own way 100% is more important than the damage they cause their kids.


    I am in NO WAY suggesting that anybody has to put up with a lousy marriage ‘for the kids’ — what I am saying is that the lousiness IS ROOTED IN the lack of common sense and mental health deficits.

  • quentind

    I agree with you on that and for years stayed silent for those very reasons. Now I have all I legally can on the internet though since the system flat refused to protect my children. By then my personal information had been repleatedly placed on the internet by my ex with claims I was molesting our daughter and had changed my number and moved several times from the threats against me. On the two times I gained a protective order they refused to prosecute her for this, calling me herself to threaten me or driving by my house and hanging out down the street watching me. I finally HAD to go public after our daughter attempted suicide from being forceably sodamized for over a year by my ex’s then boyfriend and now husband.


    Due to all the flase claims against me by her mother, the courts decided not to believe our daughter when she made an independant accusation. Also while the courts refused to do anything about me being refused any access to our children for years, because our daughter refuses to go near her mother now the judge has said there is no excuse and I have been and will continue to be jailed. My going public about the situation finally got that judge off the case, CPS willing to actually investigate and the system to at least show some semblence of equality in treatment. After I went to jail for denial of parenting time and my teen daughter had stated to the judge her fears, why and the judge calling her a liar before blaming her for the hostility in the divorce lasting over 10 years now, there was no real option within the system.


    It is a sorry state of affairs since the various groups supposed to ensure equal treatment under the law, BAR Association and Judicial Board of Review all either can’t or wouldn’t investigate the judge and CPS is strictly run locally in my state. No real oversite past the supervisors with them saying things like “Just be a good father and give her full custody like she wants.” when I pointed out the outragous and impossible claims they kept investigating me on were a form of harassment by my ex. Also that I was a liar about trying to report abuse and their refusing since “it would be documented” even when I presented recordings of their refusal.


    I am curious about your opinion on the Shockome case though. What do you think on how it was portrayed in the media compared to what the judge wrote and her actions of quiting her executive job at IBM, refusing to pay support and refusing to see her children?

  • beenthere72

    Isn’t Huffington Post left-leaning? 

  • crowepps

    Unfortunately, fact-free content from either left OR right is pretty useless.

  • crowepps

    after our daughter attempted suicide from being forceably sodamized

    You and your ex-wife both come across as self-centered and dysfunctional to me, and I include you in that specifically because this statement is a gross betrayal of your daughter’s privacy in order to give yourself ‘victim points’.

  • quentind

    I notice a lot of comments are flat open hostility towards men on this. While there are abusive men out there, the studies show that the abuse is about equal between men and women spouses. I can show several cases though where the mother has taken the children and killed them out of revenge against a father and they claimed abuse with no evidence or even signs it ever happened. Usually if he asked for shared or sole custody or if was about to lose it. The sad part is that people actually believe and think it is a viable excuse for these women.


    Yes I am an evil MRA but contrary to how we are portrayed, all I have met are good men and women who just want equal treatment for men and women as well as equal responsibility. None want to see a child abused, none I have ever seen were not loving parents and many were women who got along with their ex-husbands and were seeing the man in their second marriage be a great father figure to their children but being hammered in court by a vindictive woman who used their children as a weapon.


    This case made the news today and notice how many try to blame the father, including the judge. Everyone was wanting to take the claims of this woman who killed her children, made a tape bragging about it and how it would hurt their father and how it was his fault since he was about to win custody of them. She had been hospitalized already for problems like believing aliens were out to kidnap her, refused to let her children touch anything red thinking it was evil and much more so if she was that delusional, why would anyone believe her claims of abuse wihtout any evidence and allow her to have the children in the first place?

  • trish-wilson

    QuentinD: “I notice a lot of comments are flat open hostility towards men on this. While there are abusive men out there, the studies show that the abuse is about equal between men and women spouses.”


    *Sigh*. I just saw this same men’s rights lie in comments to another article. Here’s the truth about the equal abuse myth:


    Domestic Violence: Not An Even Playing Field

    (Sorry about the Fathers’ Manifesto link but the article is here in full.)

    By Richard J. Gelles

    [Keep in mind that Richard Gelles is the co-researcher who created the Conflict Tactic Scales. ALL research supposedly proving that men and women are equally abusive use the CTS as their basis. The CTS have serious methodological problems, including tabulating individual strikes in an isolated fashion, not considering acts of self-defense, and not taking the incident in the context of the abusive relationship.]


    Many feminists content that it is clear women are overwhelmingly the victims of intimate violence and that there are few if any battered men. On the other hand, self-described battered husbands, mens rights group members and some scholars maintain that there are significant numbers of battered men, that battered men are indeed a social problem worthy of attention and that there are as many male victims of violence as female. The last claim is a significant distortion of well-grounded research data.

    To even off the debate playing field it seems one piece of statistical evidence (that women and men hit one another in roughly equal numbers) is hauled out from my 1985 research – and distorted – to prove the position on violence against men. However, the critical rate of injury and homicide statistics provided in that same research are often eliminated altogether, or reduced to a parenthetical statement saying that men typically do more damage. The statement that men and women hit one another in roughly equal numbers is true, however, it cannot be made in a vacuum without the qualifiers that a) women are seriously injured at seven times the rate of men and b) that women are killed by partners at more than two times the rate of men.


    Thus, when we look at injuries resulting from violence involving male and female partners, it is categorically false to imply that there are the same number of battered men as there are battered women. 

  • rebellious-grrl

    I don’t like being violently threatened. Here’s a post from one of your MRA “colleagues” that was deleted by RHRC for abuse.

    Jacqueline My God! rg – really? November 11, 2010 – 6:10pm
    Rate comment
    Your rating: 1 (3 votes)
    I Googled and Binged SYG. I have nothing to do with those idiots. too poor to afford adequate legal representation in their Divorce and Custody suits. You snippy little psychotic. How dare you equate me with them!!!!!!!!!!
    Hey, you wouldn’t happen to be that “vicious lurker” they posted about would you, Mz Petunia Pigg??? The one who is stalking two women – Terri Stoddard and Jen? If you are, you stole an avatar photo of Jen and her husband and went on to publicly slander them both on your Crazy Maisey blog.
    I understand you live in Topeka, Kansas. If that were my husband and me, I’d “ahunt” you down and rip your heart out, you white trash bitch! Believe me I would! Now, go ahead and report me. Be my guest!


    I’m reposting this because it was deleted and I wanted the posters here to see the hostility from a MRA poster here. I’m NOT Mz. Petunia Pigg, I’m not stalking anyone. I repeat, I don’t have children, I’m not involved in any custody cases. So leave me the hell alone!!!!!!!!!


    I think you would be a little hostile if someone threatened you.

  • colleen

    The ‘Huffpost is left-leaning in the same way Jim Wallis or ‘Third Way’ Democrats or People magazine are left leaning. In my political compass the first two are center right and People mag is gossip.   Whoever does the censoring definitely isn’t left leaning. I’ve heard many of the same stories about censorship on other topics from people who have tried to enter into the conversation or refute some point in a thread on the Huff post. 


  • crowepps

    I notice a lot of comments are flat open hostility towards men on this.

    Personally, I feel a lot of hostility towards ANY parent, of ANY sex, who is so caught up in their sick little psych drama as they waltz with their partner in dysfuction that they can’t meet the needs of their children.


    See, the thing is, for rational people it isn’t all about teh MENZ, but instead all about the KIDS.  The children aren’t game pieces or possessions or human pets, they are PEOPLE, and they deserve much more consideration and respect than you seem to be willing to provide.

  • trish-wilson

    And censoring perfectly reasonable comments because they present an opposing view is pretty horrendous.

  • attorney60

    Violence in the family is as American as apple pie.  That doesn’t mean just against women, but children too.  At least one-third of girls and one-fourth of boys are sexually molested before they are 18 by someone within the family – most often a male, father, brother, uncle, cousin.  Since our society does not want to admit to the barbarity with which we treat our children, the denial becomes hysterical and virulent.  When Freud’s research partner said he didn’t think women were imagining abuse but that it had really happened, he was exiled from the profession and you rarely heard of him again.  Dr. Kemp in the 1960’s was viciously attacked when he declared that child abuse was rampant.  PAS is just another of the same response attempting to maintain the status quo, the unequal power relationships within the family and within the society, with abuse as the subtext.  

  • attorney60

    Violence in the family is as American as apple pie.  That doesn’t mean just against women, but children too.  At least one-third of girls and one-fourth of boys are sexually molested before they are 18 by someone within the family – most often a male, father, brother, uncle, cousin.  Since our society does not want to admit to the barbarity with which we treat our children, the denial becomes hysterical and virulent.  When Freud’s research partner said he didn’t think women were imagining abuse but that it had really happened, he was exiled from the profession and you rarely heard of him again.  Dr. Kemp in the 1960’s was viciously attacked when he declared that child abuse was rampant.  PAS is just another of the same response attempting to maintain the status quo, the unequal power relationships within the family and within the society, with abuse as the subtext.  

  • prochoicekatie

    Thanks for the clarification, crowepps!

  • quentind

    As to the article, there are hundreds of studies showing women are as likely to be abusive as men. I can provide a link to a bunch in one spot and several more. It is not a “myth” as seems to be claimed. The difference is in ARRESTS because even if a man reports it, he frequently is the one arrested or it is just written off.


    May I suggest this one which is also much more recent than the 1986 study he mentioned?



    As for the threats, as I stated, the ones I have known. Yup, there are a few wackos out there but then again I have been threatened on numerous boards for even mentioning male victims of domestic violence or rape. Heck, that Petunia Pig person even stalked me after doing some heavy editing on things I stated and dared to mention women can be abusive too. That womman is NUTS! Same goes for the idiot who posted that towards you!


    crowepps, it is not “victim points” for me but an example of how bad the system is. I had to come out publicly after debating for over a year about what had happened and we foudn out. My daughter is the one who finally said to do it after I was jailed and the judge blamed her for the hostility in the divorce case. It is kind of like the Shockome case where the courts and father stayed silent under relentless attacks for a long time and did finally come out. Hence the court releasing a public statement on the case and the 55 page order being released. Compare that to the media portrayals of the events and you see the truth is the mother was the abuser but the media was happy to work with portraying her as the victim.


    I honestly don’t give squat about the parents in a divorce and care for the kids first and foremost but after years I learned that we need a revamp and the system needs to do things like prosecute obvious false accusers and demand the system have checks to ensure equal treatment for fathers and mothers both. It shouldn’t have taken tons of reports showing the mother was unstable, abuse being ignored, a child’s death and another being molested by several different people for me to get custody. Much less my being jailed when the children tell of the abuse and fear of going back to their mother while my being denied the children for years was ignored.


    So do we allow more children to go through what mine did? DO we stay silent about it and the bias most courts and social workers have against fathers and others against mothers? I would highly suggest reading the Shockome case and also the recent conviction in Canada of the mother who killer her daughters. even when the courts knew she had been hospitalized thinking aliens were trying to kidnap her, the color red was evil and etc, they still granted her sole custody on an unsubstanted claim of abuse and never investigated her when he expressed worry she would harm these girls. Instead we now have these two girls dead with their supposedly protective mother BRAGGING to their father on tape he can now finally “visit them again, in their caskets” and saying she hopes it hurts him. All preventable if people did their jobs and showed as much concern for his worries as with her claims.

  • beenthere72

    Does a comment get deleted based on the number of times it’s flagged?   I think I read in the comments to Warshak’s article that even some of Warshak’s comments were being removed.   


    I’m not defending Huffpost in any way, I just can’t imagine the person hired to monitor comment sections has an agenda, but rather just an itchy trigger finger.  


    Hmm, I may be able to get to the bottom of this… I might know the right web developers to ask…

  • colleen

    Does a comment get deleted based on the number of times it’s flagged?

    I have no idea how that works. I believe there is some sort of automatic filter censoring posts which contain words they find objectionable or was at one time. There does not appear to be any feedback mechanism or accountability for whoever reads and censors posts (I’m assuming there are quite a few folks due to the sheer bulk of posts there)

    My statements were based on my own experiences there several years ago and the more recent experiences of people I know and trust. Their stories resemble the ones told by Joan Dawson and Trish Wilson here.


  • quentind

    Just to correct something, notice I said domestic violence. You are correct about severe causing injuries with it being 2/3rds male perpetrators and 1/3 female on that end though it does show it is still a very significant portion of men who are still refused help at most shelters.


    As I said, it is not right for EITHER to abuse, children need protected no matter which parent is abusing them and that the system needs to end a bias in either direction.

  • arekushieru

    I, too, disagree, crowepps.  If people were willing to make the compromises and demonstrations necessary, then the people that do decide to divorce wouldn’t make their children any more or less miserable (since this is what I *think* it seems that your argument is based upon…) than if they had decided to stay together.  I believe compromises should work in either case, after all, especially since there ARE amicable divorces that involve children. 

  • arekushieru

    And I do believe she was discussing domestic violence.  A very significant portion of women are still refused help at most shelters.

  • arekushieru

    I saw that episode on Nancy Grace of all things.  That episode just sent shivers of disgust up and down my spine.  *Puke*

  • trish-wilson

    Reread what I posted. The equal abuse idea comes from people using the Conflict Tactic Scales which have methodological problems. Gelles, one of the founders of the CTS, has come out against the misuse of those scales by individuals, researchers, and men’s rights activists who make it appear that abuse is equal between men and women. It isn’t. 


    If men want to help abused men why don’t they open their own shelters instead of demanding that women’s shelters, with their limited space and resources, open their doors to abused men?


    Finally, men are more likely to be abused by a man in an intimate relationship than by a woman.

    Men living with male intimate partners experience more intimate partner violence than do men who live with female intimate partners. Approximately 23 percent of the men who had lived with a man as a couple reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a male cohabitant, while 7.4 percent of the men who had married or lived with a woman as a couple reported such violence by a wife or female cohabitant. These findings, combined with those presented in the previous bullet, provide further evidence that intimate partner violence is perpetrated primarily by men, whether against male or female intimates. Thus, strategies for preventing intimate partner violence should focus on risks posed by men.


    The vast majority of abuse is men abusing women, not women abusing men. This doesn’t mean that men aren’t abused by women. They are but it’s uncommon. Once again, a men’s rights activist thinks it’s all about the MENZ. ;)  This article isn’t about abused men, though. It’s about abused women and children and censorship.

  • quentind

    If you read she was pointing out that per the studies showing DV as about equal between men and women, women get most of the injuries. Not something I duspute at all and pointed even that 2/3rds of those getting injured are women. And yes there are a lot of women who do not get help at shelters since they are full, frequently with false accusers taking a chunk of that space real abuse victims of both genders could use. Add in that there are only about a dozen total shelters that help men in the entire US and you will note that it is an even more underserved segment of society.


    As I said, wrong is wrong no matter who it is. They should help victims on either gender and go after those who abuse and plug up the system with false claims. Is that a wrong idea somehow?

  • trish-wilson

    That last paragraph in my previous comment isn’t supposed to be in bold but the HTML won’t let me fix it. So there you have it. Pretend it’s plain text. :)

  • trish-wilson

    If courts would refuse to allow introduction of garbage like parental alienation, “friendly” parent provisions, presumptive shared parenting, GALs, cottage industry psychological “experts” who make their bread and butter from custody and divorce cases, parenting classes, visitation centers, tying child support to custody, and mandatory mediation, a lot of the problems experienced by abused mothers and children – and mothers who aren’t being abused – would go away.


    If you want to know why divorces cost in the six figures today when that was unheard of decades ago, it’s not because of alleged bias against men in court but because of all these money-making cottage industries that feed off of divorce and custody cases. There’s lots of money to be made! The first thing to do is get rid of all the shrinks and “experts”. There is one hell of a cottage industry in divorce and custody cases and those who make money from it don’t want the gravy train to end.

  • arekushieru

    Um, this disproves my point, how?  And, btw, false accusers of abuse are VERY rare.  So, I guess women are by and large… underserved.  Since that means there ARE so many more of them than men.

  • jo

    Quentin says, “And yes there are a lot of women who do not get help at shelters since they are full, frequently with false accusers taking a chunk of that space real abuse victims of both genders could use. Add in that there are only about a dozen total shelters that help men in the entire US and you will note that it is an even more underserved segment of society.”


    Do you have data on shelters bing full of “false accusers’ or do you just rely on sexist stereotypes?


    Only about a dozen shelters for men? Gee, Cory Pein of the Santa Fe newspaper interviewed one guy who ran a shelter and he didn’t have anybody using it. He said it needed to be there nonetheless. You’d think he’d use the beds to help some of the women or childrne who are being refused, don’t you?


    Research finds that when men leave an abusive woman, he leaves violence behind. Not so for women. Moreover, men usually have the resources, or at least can leave the house with their wallets and bank accounts in tact. Again, not so for women. Often, they leave with the shirt on their back.


    Separation is also the very height of danger for women. Read any article in the paper about DV and you’ll see the couple was separated or divorced. Take note next time you read one.


    Quentin – come on – produce some results b/c MRAs who rely on hatred, lies and sterotypes – well, it’s becoming old.

  • quentind

    I have been and continue to be polite but you seem unable to say anything except to insult by misspelling the word “men” intentionally and ignore that abuse is equal in most studies that ask men and women. You will also find that the study I linked to is the most recent one of any that you or others are posting to counter my statements. So why is it that with the issue so heavily funded by programs targeted strictly at helping abused women that this study I gave is the most recent one?


    I understand you are a woman’s rights activist and I can readily counter your statements and studies all day but notice i have repeatedly stated it is wrong on EITHER side and that they need to look after the CHILDREN first and the rights of the adults second. Instead you just keep claiming I am wrong on the levels of DV, that this issues is about women and children so men shouldn’t be mentioned and most interesting that it is about censoring while trying to censor my mentioning of the equality part of the entire issue.


    And yes I have been censored repeatedly and heavily by numerous mother’s rights and woman’s rights advocates and kicked off various boards they have. Usually claiming my posts like these are all violations by “attacking and insulting” other members while they felt claiming I am an abuser, rapist, pediofile and cussing at me was considered allowable. THAT is the difference I have seen most since the various places I post at which are friendly to men’s rights activists did not allow members on either side to act like that and actually encourage dissent with backing and references.


    And yes I have run in to you on a few of the feminist boards before using a different name and know very well your style and tactics as well as your heavy biases. BTW, here is an article showing that studies show up to 1/3rd of lesbians experience DV at the hands of their partners which is well over the gay or heterosexual levels. It notes that they are usually not believed or counted due to the societal belief that women are not the perpetrators of DV. Interestingly enough, the exact same issues they note gays and lesbians face, male victims face.


    Finally, males helped fund and create the system to help women, so why shouldn’t women help male victims too? Would you say that men who do not abuse shouldn’t do anything about abused women then or lift a finger to defend them? Should only women buld the buildings, donate the money, pay the taxes and respond to calls about domestic violence if a woman is the victim? Or is it something that BOTH genders should work on, that BOTH should be held responsible when they are perpetrators and BOTH should have help if they need it? After all, do children suffer less if they are abused by their mother and the father is refused help than if abused by their father and their mother refused help like was common 40 years ago?



    “There’s a strong feeling in the lesbian community that lesbians are not violent, that they’re nurturing, more caring, and incapable of rage. That simply isn’t the case,” said Sharon Shaw Johnson, director of the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Projects. She was quoted in an article by Jane Lowers in the September/October 1995 issue of Curve (formerly Denueve), titled “Rape: When the Assailant Is One of Our Own.”

    Studies show that as many as a third of lesbians have been victims of sexual assault or coercion at the hands of another woman. “The fact that few cases are ever reported shows the near complete lack of support for women who have survived a same-sex sexual assault,” according to the article.

    Lesbians who report sexual assault or coercion to mainstream domestic violence programs may not be believed, and police may refuse to file a report, according to the article.

    To add insult to injury, lesbians who flee an abusive relationship by going to emergency shelters often encounter residents with homophobic attitudes, said Noyes. “Lesbians have reported to victim advocates that they were verbally harassed by other residents.”

    Not surprisingly, gay and lesbian victims rarely call 911 or go to shelters if there are other options available, said Noyes.

  • katwa

    While there are abusive men out there, the studies show that the abuse is about equal between men and women spouses.

    This is ridiculous. Even if women were abusive as often as men, have you ever noticed the difference between women’s and men’s strength??? If a woman slaps a man, what damage does that cause? A red mark or bruise? If a man slaps a woman, it can cause BRAIN INJURY.


    I say this as someone with an abusive, mentally ill mother, so I’m not saying abusive women don’t exist. My father refuses to leave my mother, but when she gets violent, he just pushes her out of the way and comes to my house. I have friends who tried to leave their male spouses who were abusing them and they just held them down and beat them. Women end up in the hospital when they are abused, men usually don’t. The largest injury my father has gotten in an abusive relationship for over 30 years is a bruise. My mother has hurt HERSELF more by trying to hurt my father, including a broken wrist. My dad is scared to even defend himself because it would be too easy to hurt her, so he just leaves.

  • katwa

    Plus it’s creepy they way he said “forceably sodamized” (sic) rather than just “raped” in my opinion. I wonder if he has been raping her too (Women don’t tend to leave a non-abusive man for an abusive one, they usually go from one abuser to another) but because it’s not the same “kind” of rape he thinks he’s better somehow.


    If anything like that happened to me I certainly wouldn’t want my own father going in public forums revealing something so personal.

  • quentind

    Actually I can show reports about how often reports are false if you like and stories on how false claims are used to stalk and harass. Interesting you need to try and be insulting though. Since you also claim most are NOT false, can you show studies proving this part?


    I would suggest you try looking up Erin Pizzey, the way she was threatened by advocates for protecting women when she tried to help men and also when he studies showed over 60% of the residents she had either were equally as abusive or more so than the men they left. I would hope that the woman who started the first shelter in the world would be an acceptable resource for you to start with.

    Here are a few articles..



  • trish-wilson

    Dude, it’s not about you!!

    I’m not going to waste time and space here debating nonsense with you that has already been asked and answered. If you want a men’s rights platform, take it elsewhere. 


    I’m just glad to see an article that presents the abused mother’s viewpoint here and on Ms. Magazine where my article appears. The link is here: 


     Huffington Post Censors Mother’s Rights Activists


    I wrote this article with my pen name, Elizabeth Black. It goes into more detail about the censorship itself. The whole ordeal is making the rounds and mother’s rights activists aren’t being quiet about it.

  • quentind

    I would like to see the studies you claim showing men can just walk away. Usually they lose heavily unless they are single but married men rarely have a place to go and can plan to lose their home, kids and everything they ever owned.


    I have read MANY articles and studies so it isn’t just refusing to look at the issue, lies, hate or anything else. It is as a male victim that I got in to looking at things. You will also find studies show women are even MORE likely to stalk and commit violence after a male leaves them if they are violent too so BOTH genders are in danger after leaving a violent partner. Why are you interested in only really helping women and calling equality hate? Is saying anyone abused should be offered help somehow hateful towards women and if so then please tell me how that is so. I am curious.

  • quentind

    I thought we were having a reasonable discussion over all and it was nice not to be cussed at like I am acustomed to but again I see you demand i go other places since anyone speaking up for equal rights for abused men and women is somehow anti-woman it seems. So woudl you have me banned for brining it up? You seem pretty bent on the idea I should leave and would liek to censor me like you are complaining about.

  • quentind

    Thank you for demonstrating my point. If a man is abused and fights to protect his children he is accused of being an abuser somehow. And so you know, I used the phrase to point out just how serious the abuse had to be before anyone acted to protect our children. My daughter spent YEARS being literally pimped out by her mother acording to the psychologists that have been helping her as part at the sexual victims unit in local hospitals and others I have gotten her help at. I had hoped to get the treatment records from her mother taking her to the local women’s shelter to help her counselor but they refused because the treatment was based only on the mother’s statment I was molesting her.


    I think the pushing that I was abusive and etc to excuse her mother’s abuse of the children and me shows exactly the problem I was pointing out though. If I had been the abuser and allowed it, would you have said the same things or would you have just called me a monster and used it as an example of how bad men can be? Do you feel a man who rapes should have a defense of being abused and molested by his mother as a reason for his behavior later in life? Personally I don’t think it should be an excuse for EITHER gender. His being abused by a woman is not an excuse for him to later abuse women and the same goes for the reverse.

  • plume-assassine

    Like KatWA discussed above, women and men are built differently, with men having the physical advantage in height and muscle mass. And in abusive relationships — because of the male-centric structure of our society — men also almost always have the financial advantage over women. If the man is the abuser, she can’t leave because he’s got the money. However, if the man is the victim, then he can leave her, because he’s got the money — according to statistics that show women are more likely to be financially dependent on their husbands.  


    Of course there are abusive, violent women. On physical strength alone, though, the most damage they could cause is bruising, unless they are using a weapon. But in most cases, it takes a lot of past physical abuse to build up to the stage of using a weapon against a partner.


    Recently, a detective who exclusively investigates DV was invited to lecture at my school. She has been in the field for something like 18 years and said that 97% of her cases involved men battering women. She has arrested women, but again, it’s not the same. A male sheriff was also at the lecture and touched on how the physical (and financial) inequalities between men and women make it more likely that men are the perpetrators, and how it’s often much worse if the man is the batterer.


    All of this, of course, does not take into account any children in a relationship. I don’t know what the statistics are for either gender — as to who is more likely to be the abusive parent.

  • quentind

    I actually agree with you to a point though if he just left you with her before you were on your own, would you have been safe? I stuck through years of abuse for one major reason, my children. I took the blows for them and found out fast if I even attempted to restrain her or push her off of me, either she woudl call the police and claim to be the victim with them deciding to do nothing though I had the marks or to advise me to just leave and let her “cool down” with the children in her care.


    Yes men are in general larger and able to do more damage more easily which is why women are 2/3rds of those with the injuries but that is not always the case and while society laughs at a man slapped or hit, even a minor slap to a woman is taken seriously most of the time. Also men will stay in an abusive relationship for the same reasons as women do when they have studied it. Add in that leaving is likely to mean losing his children, home and everything else on top of the abuse he suffered and there is a large incentive to just put up with it.


    With my job and training, beating my ex could have been done or even restraining her but I didn’t dare since even a mark on her was likely to get me arrested no matter how badly I was beaten. Some of that is finally changing but there is still a long way to go and I hope that the local shelter doesn’t do like they did me when I called the hotline asking for help and just ask what I did to deserve it and laugh. It was my last attempt for years until I managed to break free with help from family and friends.


    BTW, as a side note to the many women here arguing men should not really be helped like women, my mother thought like you did too and specialized in DV as a counselor, even working at the local shelter for free to help. She changed her mind watching me and my ex, being unable to get me help because the system did not want to reconize me as a victim and to this day works in helping but now looks at both parties. In our many talks she has repeatedly apologized for being unable to help before and mentions how seeing me afraid to even answer the phone without apologizing to her for it, my flinching if a woman raises her voice or hand around me to this day and not standing up when my ex would brag to her about the abuse.


    It isn’t about male or female, it is about VICTIMS of domestic violence, helping them ALL, stopping abuse of the children in the middle and preventing either side from abusing those protections. This is a point I keep making but seems to be missed on too many here for some reason no matter how often I keep saying it and it is sad so many are against that basic concept.

  • equalist

    My question is how do you determine a false claim from a true one without police or medical reports documenting the abuse?  In my case, I was in an abusive relationship with the father of my daughters for about three years.  In that time, I was terrified to go to the police because I knew they’d just release him in about 24 hours and send him back to take his anger out on me and my oldest daughter, and I wasn’t allowed to seek medical care for my injuries because he was afraid of being found out (I still have problems with my jaw after it was dislocated twice during the relationship, and I have chronic, severe pain in my lower back, which was his favorite spot to kick, but neither of the injuries can be conclusively tied to him now).  The abuse was real, but there is no “evidence” that most agencies look for.  I sought help through the local battered women’s system, but most of that was anonymous questions until I was assurred that leaving wouldn’t jeapordize my custody of my daughters (I wasn’t familiar with PAS, but knew of it, and took what steps I could to prevent it from being used against me).  Even now, three years later, I’m still afraid that somewhere down the line I missed a step, and something could happen to put my daughters in his hands.  On the one hand, I cannot condone the idea that the woman is always right without exception when there is a lack of evidence either way, but at the same time, being in the position I am, I have to wonder, what is the fair choice?

  • trish-wilson

    La Plume Assassine: “If the man is the abuser, she can’t leave because he’s got the money. However, if the man is the victim, then he can leave her, because he’s got the money — according to statistics that show women are more likely to be financially dependent on their husbands.”

    That’s one reason many abused women need shelters and most abused men don’t. Men generally have the financially means to leave an abusive relationship so they don’t need temporary shelter to escape. They can afford a hotel room. Women’s shelters have given abused men hotel room vouchers because they don’t have living arrangements for men in the shelters, but many men can afford the expense themselves.

    Finances are a big issue for abused women and when they leave the abusive relationship, if they have kids, the abuser continues his abuse by using the legal system against her – bankrupting her financially.

  • trish-wilson

    Have any of your comments here been removed? Have I or anyone else called for you to be banned? No and no. You’re free to post as you’ve been doing. And I’m free to ignore you. :) Like I wrote: Dude, it’s not about you.


    Someone needs to see this:


    Privilege Denying Dude


    Especially this one:

  • plume-assassine

    oh my god, Trish, I was JUST going to post that exact same image. hahah, what are the chances? I love that web site.


    Here’s another relevant one:


  • quentind

    Hold it, are you saying that it takes the person being attacked with a weapon years of being the actual victim before they will act with that weapon? i want to make sure on that one before anything else on it.


    And again, if he hits her with no more force than she hits him, then is it OK?


    As for the other two items, I have seen detectives like that and talked to many more who see a lot more men being abused but due to the primary aggresser laws and internal politics the arrests are very heavily biased. As a matter of fact, the official NIJ/DOJ reccomendations state that anything over about a 16% arrest rate being women should require retraining, new levels of evidence and checking for gender bias while citing a 97% arrest rate of men as an acceptable policy. Just as an example of how the politics of reporting and arrest work so you know.


    As to your question, both studies and arrest rates actually agree showing that abuse rates from most likely to abuse to least are mother, step-father, step-mother and father least likely. As a matter of fact, the highest predictor of a child being abused is the mother having a live-in-boyfriend or step-father instead of the biological father of the child.


    From a DHHS Study and a link to the information in an easier format. Interestingly the article notes concentrates on fathers being abusive and how there are no qualifications needed to be a father besides being male but they do not mention mothers at all. Most other studies I found either didn’t mention gender of the abuser at all or grouped strictly as male and female with no other information. Strange since domestic violence sites tend to be almost strictly mentioning of female victims and male abusers. Why are sites about child abuse so very different in being careful to not mention gender or that mothers are the most likely abusers?



  • 40.5% of all child abuse is committed solely by biological mothers
  • 17.7% of all child abuse is committed solely by biological fathers
  • 19.3% of child abuse is committed by both the mother and the father
  • 6.4% of child abuse is committed by the mother and some other individual
  • 1.0% of child abuse is committed by the father and some other individual
  • 11.9% is committed by someone other than the parents
  • 3.1% is committed by an unknown or missing perpetrator
  • trish-wilson

    That’s hilarious La Plume Assassine! I’m hooked on that site. It’s gone viral, too. :)

  • quentind

    Can you show me the studies backing that assertion?  your point ignores the dynamics of abuse. If she is abusive, then isn’t she likely to be the one controlling the family bank accounts too just like an abusive man would?

    As for bankrupting, try defending against a false allegation sometime. Did you know even an accusation costs you a security clearence and if you are in law enforcement you lose the ability to carry and frequently your job even if it is false? I know so far my entire family has been about bankrupted though she gained help from Legal Aid and the local shelter with her legal costs. Legal Aid refused me though she was earning more than me at the time. Being recently disabled in the military before hand made my earning ability pretty restricted and it still is as a result of that.

  • katwa

    It isn’t about male or female, it is about VICTIMS of domestic violence, helping them ALL, stopping abuse of the children in the middle and preventing either side from abusing those protections.

    I agree with this. But if that’s your goal, why are you lying and saying that violence by men is equal to violence by women? I want to stop all violence, against men and women, but making shit up is not going to help anyone.


    My dad never left me or my brother alone with her when she was like that. He took us with her and we stayed in a hotel. When cops have been called to our house, SHE was arrested, never him. Even when she was the one calling them (my dad never actually did, but neighbors have), they arrested her. Actually that was a problem in itself, because after they released her she was just mad at us for it, they solved NOTHING. When there was a restraining order on her not allowing her to see me when I was 16, I was the one who left the house, not her, because I had friends where I could stay, and she didn’t. This meant I couldn’t see my father or my brother, either. And I was the “abused child”! The court never even listened to me, they had their own ideas about shit and it was all wrong. The legal system is a DISASTER in terms of abusive families and needs to be fixed. MRA’s ideas for fixing it sound like they are making it WORSE, not better, which is why I don’t agree with their methods.


    And I have no idea why he won’t leave her, he feels she is “sick” and has just decided to stay and take care of her. I think he has problems of his own to stay with her. It is NOT because he thinks he would lose possessions. He knows it would be split 50/50 and he’s fine with that. He says he’d be happy to give her the house. He cares more about her happiness than his own, which is really the problem.


    I think we need to listen to the CHILDREN more. Forget what the parents say.

  • plume-assassine


    Hold it, are you saying that it takes the person being attacked with a weapon years of being the actual victim before they will act with that weapon? i want to make sure on that one before anything else on it.

    What??? I am saying that in most cases, physical abuse w/o a weapon occurs for several years before it escalates to the point of using a weapon against a partner.

    And again, if he hits her with no more force than she hits him, then is it OK?

    No, how in the world did you extrapolate this from my comment?? Neither of them should be hitting the other in the first place, no matter how small the amount of force. All I am saying is that it is usually much worse if a man is the batterer (as he is statistically more likely to be) due to the inequalities of physical strength between men and women.
  • mzpetuniapigg

    This is amazing as I have called shelters in at least a dozen states asking for help for my “brother” who is being beaten by his wife (much like the mens rights activists did) and was told by every single last one of them that they will give a man a voucher for a hotel room and if their funding is low, they will refer him to local churches who provide the help.  Every single last shelter said this.

  • quentind

    Yes I have been censored on this site before and you are continually telling me to stop posting on the topic is in essence a call for censorship. Notice also I have not been insulting, have posted links to the claims and information and gone well beyond just me. So why is it you are so upset and feel being civil, equal treatment and that someone who disagrees in a civil manner is not acceptable to you? I find it a shame that you and a couple of others seem to think that insults are what you require to make any progress in things and that equal treatment of men and women is not acceptable. Also that someone who disagrees with you and was a victim of domestic violence should not only be quiet about it but should be insulted like this. Would you insult a woman who was abused in this manner and think the same treatment you have shown me is acceptable?

  • katwa

    If it was my kid and that was happening to her, I don’t give a fuck what anyone says, I’d take her and leave the country and never look back.


    I wish someone had cared enough about me when I was a kid to take me away from the abuse despite the consequences, like losing a house, or money, or whatever. Who gives a shit about the house?! No one should stay with someone who is abusing their children, I don’t care what the excuse is.


  • quentind

    I wanted to make sure I had that right so I didn’t understand you wrong on it is why I asked. If you look you will find that women are 3 times more likely to use a weapon than a man in DV. They are also much more likely to throw objects too. Just men are also more likely to eitherr not report it at all or cover it up than women because they tend to be shamed for being a victim. You may want to look at how some here have acted towards me as an example of when a male is the victim to see as you will notice some accuse me and others demand I be silent about being a victim.


    It is good to see you feel neither should hit the other though statisticly she is more likely to be the one hitting than him but less likely to do any serious damage. Yes it is more likely to be worse physically for a woman victim as I have agreed several times but is it any less mentally, emotionally or in any other way if the man is the abused one? For serious physical harm, yes 2/3rds to 1/3rd so shouldn’t websites, awareness campaigns and services provide at close to that ratio too so we help the 1/3rd who are mostly ignored and ridiculed for being a victim like we do now?

  • trish-wilson

    La Plume Assassine (To Quentin): No, how in the world did you extrapolate this from my comment?? 


    I think it’s time for another one:  :)



    Privilege Denying Dude





  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ I find everything you say to be a lie and very painful, since I know many women who have been raped and abused and stayed in very abusive marriages because their husbands used the kids to manipulate them, my mother included. I did not want to live with my father or ever see him again. And I would not want you for a father because you are worried sick over patriarchy and you are misogynistic. You want this whole thread to be about poor little abused men.
    I never saw any abused men but I saw abused women and children. ~

  • trish-wilson

    Here’s what the American Psychological Association has written about Parental Alienation Syndrome. Remember that PAS/PA/PAD will not appear in the DSM-V.

    American Psychological Association

    January 1, 2008

    Statement On Parental Alienation Syndrome

    The American Psychological Association (APA) believes that all mental health practitioners as well as law enforcement officials and the courts must take any reports of domestic violence in divorce and child custody cases seriously. An APA 1996 Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family noted the lack of data to support so-called “parental alienation syndrome”, and raised concern about the term’s use. However, we have no official position on the purported syndrome.

    American Psychological Association. (1996). Report of the APA Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family

    Noting that custody and visitation disputes appear to occur more frequently when there is a history of domestic violence.  Family courts often do not consider the history of violence between the parents in making custody and visitation decisions.  In this context, the nonviolent parent may be at a disadvantage, and behavior that would seem reasonable as a protection from abuse may be misinterpreted as a sign of instability. Psychological evaluators not trained in domestic violence may contribute to this process by ignoring or minimizing the violence and by giving inappropriate pathological labels to women’s responses to chronic victimization.  Terms such as `parental alienation’ may be used to blame the women for the children’s reasonable fear or anger toward their violent father.” (p. 100).

  • jo

    Mz. Pigg,

    Shelters give women and children vouchers to motels too – so what’s your beef?

    Why would you call shelters in a dozen states? How many places can your brother live? If it were my brother, I’d take him in. Doesn’t he have any friends?

    If your brother does leave this woman, he’ll likely leave violence behind. This is NOT the case with women – that’s why shelters are needed. They also have to resort to changing their name & social security number – how many men have to do this? The issue of domestic violence is very different for men and women.


  • jo

    really? police on the dc force have dv convictions, carry guns and keep their jobs. professional athletes? keep their jobs. singers? keep their jobs. senators? keep their jobs.


    impunity is ripe in domestic violence, as it is in rape

  • jo

    pot calling kettle black.

    just because you say so it’s true?

    i have researched this, written about it, worked in domestic violence, …

    men can often walk away from the violence. women can’t. check out the stats on the fbi web site. most violence occurs to women during separation – more so than in marriage, altho a lot of the abuse is not reported. most fatalities occur when she tries to leave.




  • mzpetuniapigg

    There are varying studies which show who is the most abusive.  These studies are often misquoted or misinterpreted by mens rights groups.  The best one which was the largest ever study and which also breaks down abuse by type and severeity and many others is the NIS-3.  This study showed that single fathers are the single greatest abuser of children.  The newest study done entitled the NIS-4 has removed the group categories.  You can read more about this on Dastardly Dads.

  • arekushieru

    I hadn’t even TRIED to be insulting and someone accuses me of it?  Wow, would you have felt better if I called you ‘sweetie’? 

    The woman from the examiner only writes about one state, provides no comparative methodologies or corresponding statistics, yet you expect me to believe what she’s saying?  I think not.

    The third one provides no documentation for its claims, so it’s suspect, as well.

    The link you provided to Erin Pizzey says nothing about her defense of men who have been abused by their wives or female partners.

     NONE of them, however, addresses Trish’s actual argument.  That the violence doesn’t follow men as easily as it follows the women around (which is the REAL reason for shelters), they have more resources to escape the violence, they have more recourse to getting access to their children when they actually seek custody, etc….

  • mzpetuniapigg

    I expose the mens rights activists be they male or female when they are trying to destroy the few steps survivors and their supporters have made.  I did not “steal” anything.  It is on the Internet and I simply made screen shots of everything.

    Now I have been accused of everything from having severe mental illnesses to being a lesbian.  Now none of these or anything in between is necessarily bad, but it goes to show you that the mens rights groups will do and say just about anything.

    They have confused rebellious grrl and I many times before on a few other articles.  And RG the comments they have made have been nothing.  I have deleted worse emails from them.  one of the commenters on here right now who is defending the male privilege is bragging about it on SYG.

  • arekushieru

    Whoah…. RG just mentions Mz. Pigg in a quote and here she shows up just out of the blue, like that?  Something’s very odd about this….  (Although that just might be a ‘teensy’, ‘little’ ‘bit’… of an underexaggeration….  >>  <<)

  • mzpetuniapigg

    I do not think this is the case.  I went through and just randomly flagged comments.  Also I have seen comments up for a period of time and then be gone and on other articles not by Warshak, the same types of comments are staying on the site.  My belief is that Warshak is deleting those comments which do not further his agenda.

  • mzpetuniapigg

    Actually there have been studies to determine how many malicious accusations there are and it has been said that only 2-5% of all cases investigated are malicious and false.  Of these men are 16 times more likely to make these types of allegations. 

  • mzpetuniapigg

    I did this because a mens rights blogger did this and there was a lawsuit because of this in California.  I do not have an abused brother, I simply wanted to get proof (names and shelters) of those who do offer help to male victims.

    As far as me magically showing up, I have been lurking all day reading comments on this and other websites.  Would it have been different had I posted before RG?

    The reason the MRA are angry with me is because I EXPOSE.  I did that with humor and I did it with serious.  Now most who read my blog realize it is some serious but I try to put a humorous spin on it most of the time.  I did this with a few recent posts on a high profile woman in the MRA movement.  She has hooked up with a new agency alleging to help victims of abuse.  This is all well and good until you dig a little deeper.  Turns out this new group is run by another woman who just so happens to own a Russian mail order bride company.  And another even odder coincidence is that this same woman was recently sued and lost to one of those Russian “brides” because the woman was abused by the husband who “bought” her.  The owner of the MOB company allegedly told the woman that if she complained of dv/abuse she would be deported.  She was also told this is how American men treat their women, it means they love you.  now this group spouts off about false allegations all the time and in fact have a yahoo group for those who have been falsely accused.

    Now if exposing “coincidences” such as these make me a bad person, then so be it.  I have quite a bit of disbelief and some anger at a system geared towards looking down on any woman who claims abuse.  Even when abuse is glaring in your face, women are made out to be the problem for men acting badly.  It was all Kim’s fault when Alec called his daughter a thoughtless pig.  It was all Denise’s fault when Charlie would be drunker than a skunk.

    But that is simply wrong.  Each of these men have the right to be responsible and not “blame” the woman for his actions.

    So please do not take what I said wrong. 

    I do this because I feel this is my way to expose the abusers rights groups.  True men as stated in another post on here would never want to be used the way these men do.  One man whose wife accused him of abuse was quick to file contempt due to denial or “lateness” to visits with his children for him and of also destroying or selling his guns.  Now I am not one to debate gun issues, but someone who is alleged to have been abusive should not be allowed to own guns.  But this guy was complaining about this in his contempt motion which is online.


    My beef was the men who say no shelter will help a man and in fact laugh at them.  I also checked arrest records in my state for those counties that have arrest records online as well as criminal court dockets.  The results were amazing.  I did 2006 for several and found that many of the men arrested in fact had multiple arrests for assaults (under dv statutes) and they basically received a slap on the wrist.  In fact for several of these men, they got more severe punishments because of the violation of probation or parole than they did for the actual assault.

  • angelfury

    There is nothing worst thaqn being beaten down on top of being beaten– HuffPo actually deleted two of my accounts while I was posting to the Warshack Article. I guess they thought that was funny– the DV community– more so the survivors who are enduring day after day– trying to stay safe stay keep our children alive– the courts and Warshaks twisted theories bury only more…

    My comment below that HuffPo removed– then deleted both my accounts for.

    “Your Silence will not protect you”–Audra Lourdes


    The Leadership Council: Child Abuse Experts Applaud Legal Community for Rejecting
    Parental Alienation Syndrome

    The National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges, includes a strong statement condemning the use of PAS which it calls a “discredited” syndrome that favors child abusers in custody determinations. [see excerpt]

    PBS Documentary: Breaking The Silence Children’s Stories (Where PAS was used to take them away from Protective Parents (Battered Mothers) and placed in the hands of the abusers.

    Family Court Crisis; Our Children at Risk A 2008 Family law Documentary exposing the use of PAS as a ‘cottage’ industry.

    Domestic Violence, Abuse, and Child Custody ‘PAS and Abusers Tool”

    136 Killer Dads: Fathers who ended their children’s lives in situations involving child custody, visitation, and PAS…

    Petition To Inter American Commission On Human Rights- Where PAS is used A Genocide Against Mothers and their Children

    “Give light and the dark will simply disappear of it’s self.”

  • angelfury

    one more an awesome video by AMPP– (since I saw you can add)–lets see if I can work it lol–peace!

    Mr President when will you give Mothers their Children back?? by MamaLiberty

    oh and this one is really inspiring!!

    American Mothers Political Party: Women we Will Be Victorious

  • arekushieru

    …but, if you notice, RG’s comment was a quote she had taken from another commenter on another thread.  So, your name had been mentioned, previously, however you have not appeared, until now.  Which is why I HAD wondered if you were simply another poster claiming to be this person, as a sort of “So, there!” commentary. 

  • quentind

    While we disagree on the numbers of which gender it most likely to be the victim of DV as parents, on the rest we mostly agree. I think some of the MRA ideas are good, others are not. I honestly believe if we had a presumption of equal parenting as the starting point and evidence requirements to alter that, it would make false accusations and etc less likely since there would be less to gain from them. Just as I think we should punish false accusers who waste valuable police and other resources.


    My ex, I don’t care about the car, bills and rest or even the family heirlooms she took, I cared strictly about the children. While it is good the police at least listened to your father, the refusal of anyone to listen to you is one of the big problems I also mentioned. While they were so interested in the mother’s claims against me, they ignored mine and even the children when at the visitation exchange center they would scream saying they were afraid of their mother, didn’t want to live with her and she beat them. If they had paid attention then, the children would not have suffered the abuse for years. Also we could have prosecuted our daughter’s rapists but the prosecutor refused because all the false claims made ONLY by their mother can now be used to discredit our daughter. Even when judges flat stated she lied to them and even noted it in their orders, I could never get anyone willing to prosecute her for the false police reports or perjury in court. Now who suffered the most, our children.


    I think we need to listen to the CHILDREN more. Forget what the parents say.

    I agree 100% on that one!!!

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ Thank you MzPetuniaPigg. I support you sweetie, I know the men I grew up with would love MRAs, they would love it like it was a praline. ~

  • plume-assassine

    If you look you will find that women are 3 times more likely to use a weapon than a man in DV.

    I have found that women are much more likely to use a weapon as a self-defense response in cases of DV.


    You may want to look at how some here have acted towards me as an example of when a male is the victim to see as you will notice some accuse me and others demand I be silent about being a victim.

    Nobody is demanding your silence or trying to censor you as you would like to believe. But I can understand why there are some here who are very wary of accepting your story right off the bat because of dealing with abusive, misogynist MRA’s that have shown up on this board in the past. I know many who hide behind a MRA’s victim facade in order to manipulate the legal system so that they can once again have access to their wife and children and continue to emotionally/physically abuse them once again.


    I am sorry that you experienced abuse at the hands of your wife. But that doesn’t mean that you can claim that perpetrators of DV are 50/50 men & women, that women are usually the primary aggressors (they aren’t), or that feminists are to blame for all of your problems.

     I strongly recommend that you read this. (As much as I dislike linking to wikipedia, this particular section of the article refers to highly credible studies and extensive research on the topic that other commenters have discussed earlier.)

    shouldn’t websites, awareness campaigns and services provide at close to that ratio too so we help the 1/3rd who are mostly ignored and ridiculed for being a victim like we do now?

    From what I have seen, this is already being done and it is already acknowledged. I have met with social workers, victims advocates, DV support organizations, etc., that work with men as victims, too. At the lecture I mentioned in an earlier comment, there was a display on stage of six painted silhouettes, representing homicide victims in DV cases. Two of them were men. There is also a DV advocacy/support organization where I live that works with abused men as well.

  • quentind

    I knew of the physical and mental abuse but I was rarely even able to see my children and even trying to see them on my court ordered time usually meant the police were called on me for even being there. The response was always to just take it to court. When I found out about the sexual abuse and how the other abuse was worse than even I had suspected, I tried to give her supervised time with our children but she refused and sucessfully had me jailed for denial of parenting time though the court have the results of Indicated with the abuse, our daughter testifying and etc. So I just suck it up and keep going to jail since I refuse to force the children to see her or be around the rapist she married.


    I figure being in jail or the abuse happening again, well I smile when in jail. When my daughter had a fit over me being jailed last time, SHE asked we go public with it all to try and get help which did manage to work since it forced a new judge who hasn’t been willing to send me to jail for it yet.

  • quentind

    That is part of the reason we have the system for child abuse that we have where you also unfounded, unsubstanted aka nothing to really show it, substantiated meaning they know it happened but also they may not have enough evidence to prosecute. The best I can think of is if there is positive proof it is false just like they require for proof of any conviction.


    As a couple of examples from my experience since I can draw on it easily. she claimed I picked our son up by his ears and threw him 20ft across the room. A quick check with a doctor will tell you that it would likely rip an ear completely off and would cause permenant damage no matter what. Same with her accusations of how I supposedly molested our daughter. Part of my injuries in the military are to my genitals and her claims made that impossible with those injuries. When they investigated I pointed this out and gave them copies of it which prevented me even being charged. There were also witnesses showing I was not alone with the children when the claimed molesting happened and her own family was willing to testify about her statements she was going to get me with these tactics.


    So we had an obvious example of someone draining the system and wasting time but they wouldn’t do anything. The prosecutors reqired a police report, the police kept saying perjury was a civil issue only until I took a copy of the state law all the way to the Sheriff and he stated only the JUDGE could file the police report. The judge stated it had to be filed by me and after several months I just gave up. They just kept doing a round robin on the issue.


    Another would be the woman who accused the Duke case. Yeah they may have been jerks to put it mildly but she was the instigator of the whole mess and was never charged. Now she is in trouble again for attempting to kill her child, arson and beating on her boyfriend.

  • quentind

    I googled the NIS-3 and it was not available online and NIS-4 is stated as not being out yet on the official site so how do you know about the catagories? Maybe you can provide a better and unbiased link to the studies than a father hate site?


    And yes I have seen you, been censored by you on your site and even stalked by you. Interesting you claim to expose people like you do while employing censorship, editing their statements and stalking them on the internet. Heck you even intentionally took something I stated, edited it and posted it to your site while then refusing to allow a reply where the FULL statement was available to be read. Why exactly do you feel a need to do that instead of allowing the full truth to come out?

  • quentind

    It is good to see and I think I actually read about your program you attended. It is good to see they included the men killed by it too. The question is, how many posters and advertisements on bringing awareness have you seen where a male was the victim? Deaths are harder to not acknowledge though they could have.

    And I know some MRAs are pretty nasty but then again if you had even seen how even polite posts are treated by individuals like Petunia you would find they can be just as vicious and hateful as anyone else. Kind of like Trisk kept saying I should go somewhere else on the issue, aka indicating a wish to silence me like people were complaining having done to them.


    Now, on you link, I know most of those studies. A quick point in the link you gave…..


    Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27% of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24%. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. The results were the same even when the most severe episodes of violence were analyzed. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, and the data was the same.[36]

    So even when they only asked women the results were the same. They are actually a couple of the pioneers on DV with their studies showing how under-reported DV against women is but for some reason ther parts of it being against men too are called poor science though they are parts of the same reports. Kind of like my earlier mention of the article including the Shockome case in her examples. It was a case where PA was NOT mentioned and that she knowingly and intentionally refused to follow the court orders. She was also caught with false accusations by the court, refused to see her children when she finally lost custody of them and the children showed no fear of their father at any point. So she was gaming the system and even a minor bit of research would show that she may have been promoted as a good case, it should never have been portrayed as it was in the media or this article.


    Here is a bit more on the article you linked to.


    The simple tally of violent acts is typically found to be similar in those studies that examine both directions, but some studies show that men’s violence may be more serious. Men’s violence may do more damage than women’s;[37] women are much more likely to be injured and/or hospitalized, wives are much more likely to be killed by their husbands than the reverse (59%-41% Dept of Justice study), and women in general are more likely to be killed by their spouse than by all other types of assailants combined.[38]

    Coramae Richey Mann, a researcher at the Department of Criminal Justice, Indiana University/Bloomington, found that only 59% of women jailed for spousal murder claimed self-defense and that 30% had previously been arrested for violent crimes.[39]

    Women are far more likely to use weapons in their domestic violence, whether throwing a plate or firing a gun.[40] Women are also much more likely than men to enlist help if they wish to kill their spouse; but such multiple-offender homicides are not counted toward domestic-violence statistics.[41][41][42 

    Ok, again I agree men are more likely to do damage and actually kill. Notice also though that when women enlist others to do the killing it is not counted meaning that number will be skewed, correct? Same would be if a woman enlists another man to beat her ex after a breakup, true? So wouldn’t this indicate that serious violence against men is even more under reported when an abusive woman enlists other men to do that actual beating in her name? Maybe with things like false claims to people about horrendous abuses to get them willing to do it as a way of revenge for them leaving their abuser? 

    Might I suggest the following link? It is a good chronicle of how DV issues were politicized to the point that researchers who dared to publish about men being abused were threatened, harassed and placed at serious risk for doing so. 

    So, with all the studies we are seeing that DV is about equal unless it is arrests only. In which case DOJ guidelines are pretty much that the man is the most likely or it is “gender discriminate” and should require retraining.

    And the source for that part about retraining if they arrest so you can verify it. 

    Beyond that, I have been called a liar but my questions on if I was a woman and the genders in my case were reversed, would I have been called one were ignored by the accusers, I have been asked to leave because I actually disagreed by people complaining about their disagreement with another article being censored, I have even been called a possible child molestor. As someone that believes in treating people equally, are you willing to stand up and say it is wrong to these individuals when they would not have acted so towards a female with these claims?

    • mzpetuniapigg

      I did not see Trish or anyone say that you should be censored.  This is a post talking about the violence women suffer from at the hands of their spouses, ex-spouses, boyfriends, or ex-boyfriends and a post on Huffington Post and how they have censored comments from these women.  This is not about you or men who have been abused.  That article is on Huffinton Post :-) 
      And for the record< I am unable to edit any comments on my website.  I can only choose to publish or not publish.  I also take screen shots to post on my site.  It is extremely difficult and time consuming to edit screen shots.  The only thing I do with my screen shots is to resize them and crop to the actual comments. I do no other changes aside from that. 

      Now you can say all you want.  You have that right.  We women also have the right to say what we want and to create our blogs and put any information out there.  It angers me and is the very reason I teach my children they have the right to speak out if they feel they have been wronged.  It also saddens me when I see men or women having their young children dress up as super heros in order to further a cause that has been shown to include many family abusers.

      The children should be left out of stunts and antics.  They should also not be used to further a parent’s alleged victim status.  I see that from men quite often.  I was a victim due to the abuse I suffered from my ex.  My children were victims due to the abuse suffered by them as well.  I do not need to use their abuse in order to raise my status as a victim.  And on another note, I am no longer a victim.  My ex tries to continue to victimize me, but I will not go down that path.  I AM A SURVIVOR!

  • trish-wilson

    I found several web sites where people complained about seeing their comments deleted in different HuffPost areas and a few even said they were banned from posting and had their accounts cancelled. I don’t know the circumstances of the censorship – some of them could have been trolling for all I know and that’s against HuffPost’s commenting policy – but I know the comments HuffPost removed from Warshak’s article did not violate commenting policy in any way. These posts were full of factual information showing that parental alienation is garbage. I also have an e-mail from HuffPost staff stating that the comments were removed in according to HuffPost policy (which isn’t true – none of the comments were violations) and that the moderator was working with Warshak on the comments. So it wasn’t a bot removing the comments. Does that mean that Warshak is deleting comments critical of parental alienation? Sure sounds like it.

  • trish-wilson

    Men’s rights groups have been attacking domestic violence shelters for years. Rather than actually help abused men and try to get funding to open their own shelters, they attack existing domestic violence shelters, claiming they are biased against men. 

    Here is some information on how men’s rights activists attack domestic violence shelters from my blog:


    The California Women’s Law Center is delighted that common sense and justice prevailed today when the Los Angeles Superior Court dismissed a lawsuit against ten Southern California shelters for battered women and their children.  The shelters are located in: Artesia, Canoga Park, Carson, Claremont, Glendale, Los Angeles, Newhall, Pasadena, and San Pedro.

    The lawsuit, filed by representatives of the National Coalition of Free Men, claimed that the ten shelters engaged in unlawful sex discrimination by not accepting men at their emergency shelters for battered women and children.  The California Women’s Law Center and the law firm of O’Melveny & Myers LLP, representing a majority of the shelters pro bono, argued successfully that the lawsuit had no merit.

    Here’s more [excerpt]:

    In Minnesota in 2001, “a federal judge dismissed a lawsuit by R Kids, the National Coalition of Free Men, the Men’s Defense Association and other individual men accusing the state of discriminating illegally against male taxpayers by funding services for victims of domestic violence that are primarily used to assist battered women. The Domestic Abuse Project, the Central Minnesota Task Force on Battered Women and the Lakes Crisis Center joined the state in countering that the plaintiffs failed to demonstrate direct injury as a result of the state’s policy to fund programs that mostly serve battered women. The judge agreed with the defendants and dismissed the suit.”

    In 2002, a law suit filed by R Kids to have the Minnesota Battered Women’s (MBWA) Act declared unconstitutional was dismissed. Here’s the news direct from the Free Men web site. (Note: NCFM refers to Free Men.)

    I believe Free Men and Angelucci won a case a couple of years ago but I don’t think much came out of  it. Here’s a link:  However, domestic violence shelters don’t have to necessarily provide shelter for men. The ruling says they may provide hotel vouchers, which many of them have already been doing. 

  • aligatorhardt

    It has been my experience that Huff Post moderators consistantly censor comments that disagree with their authors, particularly if they present the right wing official propaganda of the status quo. I have experienced censorship in many subjects when I disagree with the ideas they are projecting. The situation of censorship has caused me to discontinue using that paper as a source of news, because the controling influences of the moderators are to present a one sided view of reality, similar to other right wing sites like Fox. You cannot get a feel for public sentiment under those conditions.

  • angelfury

    Can you put a link back for that— as I live in Topeka, Kansas


  • angelfury

    plz delete this one– it double posted :-)

    • mzpetuniapigg

      Will send it to you sweets :-)

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~ She is not stalking you QuentinD. You are taking an article about women troubles and turning it into “NO!” feel bad for poor little men. Men like you cannot stand it when things are not about them. ~

  • beenthere72

    If the tables were turned and women wished to be accepted into a male-specific shelter where men were the victims of abusive women, do you really think men would want to share their safe-space with other women?   I don’t care that both are victims, if I were abused by the opposite sex, I don’t particularly want to be sharing a safe-haven with the opposite sex.    Can you just imagine the abusers sneaking their way into that scenario?   It’s got danger-danger written all over it.  


    • mzpetuniapigg

      I actually know of a situation like this.  A woman left her abusive husband (3rd or 4th time leaving) and her sister in law drove her to the office of the dv agency.  She left from there and went to the shelter.  One of her family members who is a police officer found out where she was (well he knew the location due to being law enforcement) and he went there and talked (coerced) her into going back home.

      I was floored.

  • squirrely-girl

    My daughter spent YEARS being literally pimped out by her mother acording to the psychologists that have been helping her as part at the sexual victims unit in local hospitals and others I have gotten her help at.

    … that aspect of her life that should be hers and hers alone to share with others is being pimped out by her father to random strangers on the Internet, not to improve her situation or seek help, but rather to prove a point. 


    Even after being told what you are doing is wrong you continue to engage in this pattern of behavior.


    I must say, not just from the perspective of my educational and professional experiences or my experiences as a mother, but most importantly from the core of my decency as a human being, you should be ashamed of yourself.



  • quentind

    If you notice, I pointed to things she has done previously. Sorry but if others went around and even went so far as to try and locate you on the internet, take things you stated out of context, edited them and then intentionally tried to find and post your real name, address and other information on their blog, it is stalking. I don’t care if it is an MRA or WRA doing it. The difference is you seem to think it is OK for her to do it due to disliking one side over the other.

    • mzpetuniapigg

      I had been told many times that I “needed” to go read some of the MRA websites and that was where I found all the info you have posted about yourself and your case.  Just to let you know, you might want to be careful about posting yoru court documents online.  There is somes ensitive information in them.

      I could say the same about the MRA in their trying to discover where I live, who I am and even offering up guesses about who I am.  I will not get into any spats with you.  I am one of the few out there who finds the smut posted by some of the MRA and putting it in one easy to find location for those interested, so that they can see for themselves some of the blatant hatred for females.

  • quentind

    I see you tried to bring in other jobs but I will keep it to the ones I mentioned. Under federal law, a DV conviction means you are never allowed to own, carry or touch a gun, period. Police and military are not exempt so I am not sure where you see any convicted police officers carrying one. Same goes for those with a protective order against them. Please look up the Lutenberg Amendment(sp?) and you will find that. It is a felony is they have a firearm of any kind.

    • jo


    • A recent study of the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department found inconsistent policies and practices for officers accused of domestic violence, regarding arrests, seizure of firearms, and Employee Assistance treatment.10 There is no reason to believe that the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department is unique in this; rather, this inconsistency is typical for police agencies responding to domestic violence committed by its own members.
    • Source:

      I didn’t initially find it on this web site – it was reported in the Washington Post. However, I also collected newspaper articles last year and found MANY police officers or sheriffs commited DV – these just the ones that were in the media. It is well-known that these are the hardest cases for women (sometimes men) b/c NOBODY wants to get their buddy on the force into trouble. It’s one of those remaining old-boy-clubs. They look out for each other in a major way.