The Anti-Choice Hoax of the Century


I’m inviting you to see why the so-called Right To Life movement is the hoax of the century.

I have been involved in the complex and fascinating work of providing abortion services since 1975. Despite the violence and the crazy politics, this is extraordinary work that has brought me in touch with extraordinary people. One of those is Bill Harrison, a doctor who has practiced in Fayetteville, Arkansas for nearly 20 years.

If you were searching for the most progressive community in the country, you probably wouldn’t choose Fayetteville. Yet women there need abortions just as women all over the country. And they have been grateful to have Bill’s excellent medical attention and warm heart. Dr. Harrison is one of the most courageous and eloquent people I know. He wrote about his career:

“I have dared to ride the tiger. This tiger is ignorance, intolerance and hatred incarnated in some of the anti-abortion Religious Right…I have chosen to ride this tiger unquietly, raking its side with verbal spurs, swinging my hat and whooping like a cowboy for the past 15 years.”

Over the years Bill Harrison has, not surprisingly, been the target of some horrible harassment by the RTL (I won’t give them the name they have chosen for themselves, because they gave up that privilege when they started murdering us).

Worse than that, he has been battling Leukemia. This summer he finally had to close his office as he went into Hospice Care. His illness has not been a secret. Everyone knows that he never would have given up or closed his office by choice. No one thinks he was defeated or intimidated by the self-righteous folks who show up on his sidewalk so certain they know what God wants every woman to do.

Yet these people are so without shame that they are celebrating the closing of Bill Harrison’s office as some kind of gift from God resulting from their activities. Posted July 28, 2010 on the 40 days for Life Newsletter:

“I had to share amazing news that, with God’s grace, could be repeated in YOUR community.

I just received word from our local 40 Days for Life campaign leaders in Fayetteville, Arkansas — and got confirmation from their local media — that their city’s one and only surgical abortion facility is CLOSING!

Praise God!

During three previous 40 Days for Life campaigns in Fayetteville, the abortionist grew more and more aggressive towards the prayer volunteers, taunting and ridiculing them in person — and in the media …

… but they did not react; they persisted in peaceful vigil and remained to pray for the unborn, the women entering the facility — and especially for the abortionist himself.

And NOW … that facility is closing down!”

When I first read this I was so furious and disgusted that they could be gleefully congratulating themselves and praising God for the terminal illness of my friend. Besides being far removed from any semblance of Christian Love, it was duplicitous to suggest to their supporters and donors that it was their actions that had caused the clinic in Fayetteville to close.

Then because I am a bleeding heart liberal I found myself pitying them because they are so hateful and they have tried so hard to control women for so many years with such little success. They must be terribly frustrated. Then I got angry again because, of course, that frustration has hypocritically led to anti-abortionists murdering 8 people in the name of life.

Then a huge light bulb went off in my head. It’s not that I didn’t know this before, but I found myself amazed that the antis have gotten away with this for so long. The RTL has succeeded in one of the most effective hoaxes of modern times—they have managed to con much of the public into believing that they are a morally-motivated group that loves life, loves babies and wants to prevent abortions.

BUT IT IS A LIE THAT THE RTL WANTS FEWER ABORTIONS. PERHAPS THE MORE CORRECT NAME FOR THEM IS ‘RIGHT TO LIE’.

How can I say that?

RTLs need abortion the way fire fighters need fires.

Picketing an abortion clinic to try to stop abortions is as effective as picketing an airport to try to get more people to vacation locally. It’s all show. And it is a cruel, bullying, vicious, smug and self-righteous show.

We all know that the RTL movement has enough politicians (mostly Republican) who vote lock step with them that they could change women’s reproductive health care overnight. All they would need to do is to support a few measures that are already supported by most Democrats. Here in no particular order, are a few simple things they could support that would be guaranteed to result in fewer untimely pregnancies, and hence fewer abortions in no specific order:

1. Make long-acting, effective reversible birth control methods like IUDs available free of charge to any women who want them. These birth control methods are effective for 5 to 10 years and don’t require a woman to remember to do anything in order to be protected from pregnancy. They can be used by women of any age. If a woman wants to get pregnant, she simply has the IUD removed and her normal fertility returns. This birth control method is widely used in Europe, but quite expensive and less frequently used in this country.

2. Cover all reproductive health care including all methods of birth control, infertility, tubal ligation, and vasectomy, under affordable health insurance.

3. Create excellent and affordable childcare so that women who want to have children can also make a living to support them.

4. Make sure young people learn how to create successful relationships as well as how to be responsible with their sexuality. That will give them the tools to create healthy families and be good parents with enough resources to care for their kids when the time is right.

5. Promote vasectomy as a very safe and inexpensive method of permanent birth control for men. This would be especially helpful for couples who have completed their families so that a late and unexpected pregnancy doesn’t throw everyone into emotional turmoil.

6. Increase research into developing safer, more effective and long lasting methods of birth control.

7. Make sure the Morning After Treatment is easily available, inexpensive, and covered by health care insurance.

8. Require by law that all pharmacies either fill prescriptions for birth control and Morning After Treatment, or else inform over the phone, in advertisements, and by posted signs that they are Anti Choice Pharmacies, and the location of the nearest pharmacy that respect a woman’s choices.

Now that I see this so clearly, my plan is to print out this list and make sure that every little grandmother with her rosary, and every obnoxious, loud, angry man with his bull-horn, and every self-righteous seminary student waving a Bible, and every teenage girl with her chastity ring and her secret sex life standing between a woman and her own moral choice REALLY HAVE TO FACE that they are not doing any of the things that could actually lessen the need for abortion. And they will have to face that either they have been duped into giving their time to insult, intimidate, and harm women OR that they are part of perpetrating one of the most insidious, cruel,and successful hoaxes of our modern day.

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  • prochoiceferret

    It’s pretty clear that the “pro-lifers” do not, in fact, give a rat’s patootie about children, born or unborn. Their non-support of your eight-point list won’t drive home the argument to a skeptic, however—because “pro-lifers” have knee-jerk reactions to many of them (like believing that increased availability of contraception will turn civilization into one gigantic orgy). Instead, I would point out how they vote down things like SCHIP, pre-natal care programs, and other such things that provide real benefits to children but lack the all-important bonus of enhancing control of women’s bodies.

     

    If they cared as much as they say they do about “unborn” children, that care would come from a potent (if heavy-handed) sense of benevolence that would clearly manifest itself in other ways. You point out all the things that they have explicitly refused to do that would have otherwise been consistent with such benevolence, and you expose the charade.

  • beenthere72

    Excellent post, Charlotte!

     

    RTL won’t be happy until the world only uses sex for procreation within the confines of straight marriage.    And pigs fly.   

  • mechashiva

    After working at an abortion-providing clinic and having to deal with near-daily protesters for two years, plus all the exposure I’ve had to antis online and at protests, not much shocks me anymore.

     

    But this. This is just revolting.

     

    I’m willing to bet that they know the real situation here, that the doc had to step down due to leukemia. I bet they think his cancer is God’s punishment, and I’m reminded of the homophobes who claim AIDS is God’s punishment for homosexuality or other types of “immorality.” I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but at this point I know better. These people are not ignorant… they are hateful. And nothing is out-of-bounds if they think it will help their groups get more donations.

     

    There really are no words for how disgusted I am with pro-lifers in general right now, but these in particular.

  • beenthere72

    Yup.  No different than the Westboro Baptist Church.

  • jenh

    May God have mercy on all of you, including the author of this angry, nonsensical rant.  It is tempting to respond in kind, or at least rebutt the falsehoods she puts forth, but the fact is, nothing I say will get through.  You need what only God can give.  I am not happy Dr. Harrison is suffering from leukemia.  I am happy one more abortion clinic is closed.

  • beenthere72

    What is non-sensical about her 8 point list, Jen?  Do you not support all those things?  

  • invalid-0

    The use of birth control has never been more prevalent in history than it is right now.  The number of unintended pregnancies has never been higher either.  With that knowledge, let’s look at the author’s suggestions in summarized form:

    1. Birth control

    2. Birth control

    3. Increased access to childcare.  I actually support this.

    4. Education which includes birth control methods

    5. Birth control

    6. Birth control

    7. Emergency birth control

    8. Birth control

     

    Its a good thing that the author here doesn’t work with facilities that derive funding or fees for their dispensing of birth control, otherwise I would think that her motives are self-serving. Oh wait…

  • terradea

    Who are you to give god’s mercy? Has she spoken directly to you? You are as blind as the rest of your ilk. A closed abortion clinic may mean a woman who cannot afford another child must watch her child starve or die from illness that she cannot afford to treat. A closed abortion clinic may mean a woman will die from a pregnancy because she could not afford medical care. A closed abortion clinic may mean a woman will be forced to carry a rapist’s child, her father’s child or her grandfather’s child.  You people are nothing but haters in the name of god. Shame on you, JenH. Shame on you.

  • terradea

    What is wrong with birth control?

  • c

    Hi Charlotte,

    What are you doing to “lessen the need for abortion” besides promoting abortion?

  • mechashiva

    Got any proof that there are more unintended pregnancies in America now than at any other point in history? Please find some evidence concerning RATES, not numbers, as there are (to my knowledge) more people in America now than there were at any other point in history, and rates are more relevant than numbers for this issue.

     

    It flies in the face of all logic to suggest that there are higher rates of unintended pregnancy when we have higher rates of more effective contraceptive practice. Or do you think people just used to have recreational sex (sex without the intention of pregnancy) less often?

  • beenthere72

    RTL won’t be happy until the world only uses sex for procreation within the confines of straight marriage.    And pigs fly.  

     

    Good luck with that.

  • rebellious-grrl

    RTLs need abortion the way fire fighters need fires…….Picketing an abortion clinic to try to stop abortions is as effective as picketing an airport to try to get more people to vacation locally. It’s all show. And it is a cruel, bullying, vicious, smug and self-righteous show……

    I’m going to print out your list and hand it out to the (loser) anti-choicers in front of PP. (I wish they would get a life). Thanks for the great article.

  • beenthere72

    Gee, C, what are YOU doing to lessen the need?   Please enlighten us.   Obviously, Charlotte has great ideas on how to lessen the need – did you even read the post?

     

    And nobody is promoting abortion here.  

     

     

  • rebellious-grrl

    I see Jill Stanek’s anti-choice folks have found us. Bat s–t crazy Jill Stanek posted Charlotte’s article on her blog as the quote of the day with the link to RHRC. I am honestly really tired of hearing the bs and lies from the antis.

  • c

    How does abortion NOT take the life of an innocent, preborn child? Please cite your scientific sources. 

    beenthere,

    If abortion is a need, than how can it be a choice? Hmmm.

    I tell abortion vulnerable and abortion minded women my abortion story and they choose life. Pretty simple.

    Gotta get back to Jill’s.

     

  • beenthere72

    “If abortion is a need, than how can it be a choice?”

     

    That doesn’t even make sense.   Women can choose not to have an abortion.    Women shouldn’t be forced to be pregnant and have babies either.  

     

    If you had an abortion and now are forcing your new beliefs on others – you are a hypocrite.   YOU had a choice, YOU could’ve chosen life.     If you have guilt over that, that is not for the rest of us to bear.   

     

    Now please, tell us your abortion story.    I’d love to hear it.  I have abortion stories too but they’re not very exciting because I moved on with my life.  

  • prochoiceferret

    How does abortion NOT take the life of an innocent, preborn child?

     

    Are you seriously going to argue that the “innocence” of the “preborn child” is a reason why women should not have the right to an abortion? What about rape victims?

     

    If abortion is a need, than how can it be a choice? Hmmm.

     

    Not unlike many other kinds of surgery, isn’t it?

     

    I tell abortion vulnerable and abortion minded women my abortion story and they choose life. Pretty simple.

     

    “I just smiled and nodded, and repeatedly said, ‘Yes, I’ll have the baby,’ till she seemed satisfied and went away. I swear, she must have been crazy… if I’d said that no, I needed to have an abortion because of pulmonary hypertension, I seriously think she would have snapped. She had a couple burly-looking guys with her, too.”

     

    Gotta get back to Jill’s.

     

    Yes, all the facts on this site must play havoc with your allergies.

  • c

    LOL

  • carolyninthecity

    I find the antis who comment on this site so interesting. Does anyone here ever go on pro-life blogs or websites for the sole purpose of picking a fight with other commenters? ( I’m not judging if you do, I’ve been tempted to do this before).  Are they here to convert us? Like Antis think they can just come on here and be like “abortion is murder” and we’re all going to be like “no way! It is?? thank you so much for enlightening me!” lol, I’m sorry it just makes me laugh. I can understand the thrill that comes with being antagonistic, it just seems so futile. 

     

    About the article though- how very sad for Dr. Harrison. And shame on this anti-choice group for being so crass. Obviously they don’t value the life of this brave doctor, or any other -to use their terminology-post born woman. :P 

     

    I’m not a religious person, but celebrating the closing of a clinic that provides medical care, which happened because a man has a very serious illness, sounds pretty un-Christian to me. just sayin. 

  • nycprochoicemd

    If abortion is a need, than how can it be a choice?

     

    Abortion is something people NEED available in order to have a CHOICE.  Try to wrap your head around the fact that, for instance, pregnancy might make worse a medical condition a woman has.  In that situation, she makes a choice: either to continue the pregnancy at risk to her health, or to end the pregnancy with an abortion.  She couldn’t make the choice if there were no abortion available.  Hence the use of the word choice.

  • nycprochoicemd

    Plenty of prochoice people go to anti blogs to wreak havoc.  The difference is that they tell the truth on those sites, while antis here tell lies.

  • carolyninthecity

    Also, the 8 point list is perfect. In a parallel universe where anti-choicers are given the gift of rational thinking, all these things would be implemented immediately. High access to birth control+ sex ed= fewer abortions. Very simple math, although I suppose it’s difficult to grasp without a left brain. Poor antis. 

  • carolyninthecity

    Very true. 

    I’ve done it myself, mostly on youtube videos and such. 

     

    I guess I understand it. The hope is you might knock some sense into these people with the facts. 

     

    You’re right though, the difference is we have truth on our side. 

  • saltyc

    The number of unintended pregnancies has never been higher either.

     

    Pure 100% fiction.

  • beenthere72

    I always wondered that myself.   I, myself, tend to stay the hell away from pro-life blogs/websites unless someone’s directed me to see something.  Good thing most of them are blocked from work.

  • beenthere72

    Or a universe in which men got pregnant.  ROFL! 

  • saltyc

    There have been some RTL’er’s who come out and say they are for women carrying pregnancies to term against their will. Who was it, Kevin who said so here, that if every child born were wanted and planned, that society would come to a screeching halt?

    There are forces, some of them explicit, that want women to continue to give birth as much as possible no matter the condition, including by force. A relative of mine in Brazil even said it “If abortion is more available, where will the maids and drivers come from?”

    These elites see human beings as a natural resource to be exploited, the more people the more cheap labor, the more consumers, the more prisoners, the more soldiers. The super-elite like things the way they are, including a massive underclass that is needed to prop up this particular order, this is what funds the RTL movement, IMHO. The foot-soldiers of the RTL on the ground don’t actually get much material benefit from the movement, but they get some kind of psychological validation. And they must associate with fellow zealots otherwise the validation is wiped out by the fact that they are actually very nasty people with no empathy and thus don’t get along in normal society.

  • julie-watkins

     

    These elites see human beings as a natural resource to be exploited,

    I think I read this in “The Baby Trap”, but it could have been somewhere else or multiple places: The single best indicator for economic growth (or spending?) is household starts. Any time someone moves out of a family/group home into an apartment or house there’s so much STUFF that has to be bought. As well as businesses needing compliant low wage workers, and wars needing canon fodder, and private prisons needing more income generators.

    I’m very sorry Dr. Harrison has leukemia. In the past, I read many of his essays on Daily Kos, and the essays & discussions were very useful. Thanks to Charlotte for writing this.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~So very sad and true SaltyC!~

  • c

    You’re right though, the difference is we have truth on our side.

     

    Let’s hear it. Please tell me the truth about abortion.

  • jenh

    Absolutely.  Please do tell us the truth about abortion. 

  • catseye71352

    Abortion is NOT “murder”, ZBEF’s are NOT “babies”, and women are NOT incubators.

     

    And “C” would not know the truth if it bit him/her/it on the butt.

  • beenthere72

    C, I’m still waiting to hear your story about abortion and if it convinces me to choose life.   Go ahead.  

  • c

    Prove it. 

  • c

    Hi been there,

    You are not waiting to hear my abortion story so it convinces you to choose life. Nice try, though. You are waiting to hear it to rip it into a thousand pieces. No thanks. I do not argue my personal story of abortion. It is irrefutable. It is enough to be spit on by proaborts such as yourself when I hold my I Regret My Abortion sign. Good times.

    You can only attack any prolifers here personally because you are unsuccessful in countering the message that abortion takes a human life. 

  • c

    Why did you delete Jill Stanek’s comment??

  • rebellious-grrl

    What’s next? Are you going to cast demons out of us? Really, I don’t need your religion and I don’t need your god.

  • clara-princess

    Quality over Quantity.

  • beenthere72

    Oh, that’s right, you only coerce “vulnerable” people.   

     

    You do realize that by your logic, you are just as much a murderer?    Why was that OK for you and not for anybody else?     I wouldn’t argue your story because that was a choice you chose to make.   You had a choice.   I’m sorry you regret your choice.   I don’t regret mine, but we are different people in different situations.   I would argue your new agenda of keeping other women from making that choice – that’s unfair and hypocritical.     If you’re just a person standing on the street protesting for life, you don’t know the situations of the women that are walking by you.   You don’t know what kind of life that potential baby would be born into.    You don’t know if that woman is going to live to see that potential baby.     It’s up to her, and only her, if she is ready to provide life for that potential baby, with the possibility of giving up her own life.   

     

    Have some respect for other women.     We make mistakes, we don’t all have such ideal situations in which to birth and/or raise children.     We shouldn’t be punished for our mistakes by having to carry and birth babies, and all the pain and potential problems that go along with it – physically, emotionally and financially. 

  • prochoiceferret

    You are not waiting to hear my abortion story so it convinces you to choose life. Nice try, though. You are waiting to hear it to rip it into a thousand pieces. No thanks. I do not argue my personal story of abortion. It is irrefutable.

     

    Okay then, I agree. You should definitely refrain from having abortions.

     

    It is enough to be spit on by proaborts such as yourself when I hold my I Regret My Abortion sign. Good times.

     

    No, he’s not a pro-abort. We’re all pro-choicers here. If you want the pro-aborts, you’ll have to talk with the people who oppose contraception and comprehensive sexual education.

     

    Granted, it’s kind of silly to hold up a sign telling the world when you regret something. If I get heartburn from eating a large meal, I don’t go and stand outside a Chipotle with a sign saying “I Regret My Burrito Supreme With Extra Hot Sauce (And A Side Order Of Nachos).”

     

    You can only attack any prolifers here personally because you are unsuccessful in countering the message that abortion takes a human life.

     

    No, we attack them because they want to force pregnant women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term. The “abortion takes a human life” line has more to do with linguistic ambiguity than the subject at hand (you could say the same thing about a hysterectomy, after all), and most of us here are not language geeks, so we’re happy to just point out that at the point that the majority of abortions are done, the fetus is about as big as a kidney bean.

  • rebellious-grrl

    C, abortion does not take a human life.

    I’m sorry you were spit on. I personally have never assaulted any anti-choice protesters. I however have been verbally harassed and threatened by intimidating behavior by anti-choice protesters. If I am threatened I will protect and defend myself. 

    I’m going to paraphrase something goatini posted on 8/20, “livestock” The RCC position on reproductive health care is Animal Husbandry 101.

    “To the ever-more regressive RCC (Roman Catholic Church) (I would add anti-choicers) all we are as women, is livestock. Our sole reasons for being are reproduction and utility.  Make as many as possible and pull the plow, till you collapse and die.  Then, be easily replaced by a new breeding beast of burden. The RCC position on reproductive health care is Animal Husbandry 101. With breeding livestock, ideally the animal has healthy offspring and remains healthy herself. If the animal has problems in breeding and birthing, but she and the offspring both live, that is good too, but not as good as the ideal.  Best to breed her again as soon as possible since she has no worth if she can’t breed and can’t serve as a utility. If the animal has problems in breeding and birthing, and she lives, but the offspring does not, that’s also not so good.  Best to breed her again as soon as possible to validate your investment.  Might as well know as soon as possible if she has any usefulness.  If the animal has problems in breeding and birthing, and she dies, but the offspring does not, that’s also not so good, but at least you’re rid of a non-productive animal and you did get offspring out of the deal, so it wasn’t a total loss.  Time to get a new animal. If the animal has problems in breeding and birthing, and both she and the offspring die, that’s also not so good, but at least you’re rid of a troublesome gene pool and it was ‘G-d’s will’. Time to get a new animal.” 

    “All this ‘sanctity of life’ crap from the RCC is a Big Lie, since the life of the living, breathing WOMAN is not held to be sacred. And don’t even get me started on that “Theology Of The Body” crap.  Here’s MY theology of the body:  My Body Is Sacred.  My Sacred Body Is Mine.  My Choices Are Sacred.  My Sacred Choices Are MINE.”  – Submitted by goatini on August 20, 2010 – 9:09pm.

    Thanks again to goatini for an articulate post.

  • prochoiceferret

    Absolutely.  Please do tell us the truth about abortion.

     

    The truth about abortion is that women own and control their bodies. And that if you tell them that they can’t stop something from growing inside them, doing a number on their health and lives, as well as the whole childbirth process, then you are denying them one of the most basic measures of personhood there is.

     

    That’s pretty much it. Sorry that there weren’t any cool lasers or special effects or anything, just boring old women’s rights.

  • c

    I was coerced into an abortion. 

    Where did I say my abortion did not end in the murder of my preborn child? I didn’t.   My abortion killed my child 20 years ago. I have worked through ALL that it entails and “moved on.” :) It stands to reason that your abortion killed your child, been there. You admit abortion is murder and you are fine with that. 

    “Vulnerable” to abortion. There are young, single women without jobs and a place to live that do NOT want an abortion but are vulnerable to the lie that abortion “solves” something. Pay attention. What they need then is support and help.

    Please don’t place all of your “assertions” about what I do or do not do with my abortion story on me. 

    I am sure you must tell others of your non regret of abortion. But that is not an agenda? That is not unfair or hypocritical. No, not at all.

    No matter what situation a woman is in in her life, financially, physically, emotionally, or spiritually how does murder solve any of that? How does abortion “help” a woman? Everything that is going on in a woman’s life can be dealt with without killing the child.  Sheesh. Abort or face misery! You should print tshirts.

    I appreciate your attempts at some respect and civility even though we most likely will never see eye to eye. 

     

  • c

    rebellious,

    Please cite scientific sources that prove abortion does not kill a growing, human preborn child. Please describe an abortion procedure for me. 

    I am sorry you were harrassed and threatened. I have NEVER done that. and NEVER will. Thank you for saying you are sorry I was spit on. 

    Not sure what livestock have to do with anything but ok.

    When I was pregnant with a boy that was his penis not mine. Not my penis, not my body, His.

     

  • beenthere72

    I never said I believed abortion is murder – I said ‘by your logic’, not mine.   

     

    It’s up to each individual woman to decide for herself is she can have that potential baby.   I do not have an agenda to promote abortion and I do not see how by saying that I do not regret mine that that makes it an agenda.    

     

    I have an agenda to keep abortion legal because it’s our bodies, ourselves and not for anyone else to decide for me. 

     

    Do you help those in need that want to have their babies, after they’ve had their babies?   I applaud you for that, if you do. 

  • beenthere72

    … And I am also sorry you were coerced into having an abortion.   Nobody should be coerced into pregnancy or abortion. 

  • prochoiceferret

    I was coerced into an abortion.

     

    Being denied a free choice sucks, doesn’t it? In fact, that kind of goes against everything we stand for. On the other hand, I’m sure the pro-aborts will be happy to hear you had an abortion, regardless of the circumstances—they’re not as keen on the whole “choice” thing as we are.

     

    Where did I say my abortion did not end in the murder of my preborn child? I didn’t.   My abortion killed my child 20 years ago. I have worked through ALL that it entails and “moved on.” :)

     

    So you admit that you are, in fact, a murderer. Do you put up, like, Charles Manson and John Wayne Gacy posters in your bedroom? Is your iPod playlist all heavy metal, with vocals that sound like the Cookie Monster on acid? How many tats do you have?

     

    “Vulnerable” to abortion. There are young, single women without jobs and a place to live that do NOT want an abortion but are vulnerable to the lie that abortion “solves” something. Pay attention. What they need then is support and help.

     

    So you’re willing to cover all their health and childcare expenses? How very generous of you!

     

    Please don’t place all of your “assertions” about what I do or do not do with my abortion story on me.

     

    How about this one: You tell people about having been coerced into an abortion to try to get them to freely choose not to have an abortion. I suppose if you had ever had the misfortune of being raped, you would tell everyone to never engage in sex?

     

    I am sure you must tell others of your non regret of abortion. But that is not an agenda? That is not unfair or hypocritical. No, not at all.

     

    Maybe if there weren’t all these other folks talking about their abortion regrets, there wouldn’t be a need for the much larger number of women who were glad to have an abortion to make themselves heard.

     

    No matter what situation a woman is in in her life, financially, physically, emotionally, or spiritually how does murder solve any of that? How does abortion “help” a woman? Everything that is going on in a woman’s life can be dealt with without killing the child.

     

    Sure, if she had unlimited resources, and no pressing health issues or complications. Here in the real world, however, these women aren’t getting $200,000 checks in the mail from “pro-life” groups, so they are going to make the choice that makes the most sense for them.

     

    Of course, if you were really all that bothered by abortion, you would support greater access to contraception, as well as comprehensive sex ed. But since the only thing worse than this form of “murder” is people fornicating without consequences, I can see why you’d rather talk about how terrible abortion is than support measures that are actually effective in reducing the need for them.

  • c

    Oh and rebellious you just contradicted been there who said abortion is murder.  Hard to keep the stories straight I suppose.

     

    beenthere,

    I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

     

    Prochoiceferret,

    You just keep spewing, ok?

  • beenthere72

    Is your iPod playlist all heavy metal, with vocals that sound like the Cookie Monster on acid? How many tats do you have?

     

    I was going to say:  Hey!  I resemble that remark!   But I stopped listening to metal years ago.  Must be getting old, I pretty much only listen to NPR now. 

  • beenthere72

    *BY YOUR LOGIC.*  

     

    But PCF is cute and funny.    We like her spew. 

  • c

    beenthere,

    I help women after they have their babies. They continue to need help and support especially when the baby comes home!  I help women after they have chosen life and decide on adoption as well. 

     

     

  • jenh

    “The truth about abortion is that women own and control their bodies. And that if you tell them that they can’t stop something from growing inside them, doing a number on their health and lives, as well as the whole childbirth process, then you are denying them one of the most basic measures of personhood there is.”

     

    I had no idea you were a “thing.”  Someone should tell your mother she gave birth to a “thing” cause I’m pretty sure she thinks you’re a person.  You’ve been human since the moment of your conception, not since the moment of your birth.  You’ve been an individual person since the moment sperm met egg, not since the moment you left the birth canal.  You’ve been an unrepeatable human being for every second you’ve been in existence, not simply the moments you’ve spent outside the womb.

     

    So it is with every human being.  The child in the womb is not “something growing.”  I understand, though, why you must dehumanize the baby.  It’s the only way to make abortion palatable and acceptable.  To actually admit you’re killing a new human being would be absurd and unthinkable.  Yet, that is the truth about abortion.  Abortion kills.  It kills one life and leaves the other wounded in ways she was never, ever meant to be wounded.

  • prochoiceferret

    I had no idea you were a “thing.”  Someone should tell your mother she gave birth to a “thing” cause I’m pretty sure she thinks you’re a person.  You’ve been human since the moment of your conception, not since the moment of your birth.  You’ve been an individual person since the moment sperm met egg, not since the moment you left the birth canal.  You’ve been an unrepeatable human being for every second you’ve been in existence, not simply the moments you’ve spent outside the womb.

     

    You can say all that about a pregnant woman, too. Why do you want to deny her control over her own body, reducing her to a “thing” forced to serve the needs of someone else?

     

    So it is with every human being.  The child in the womb is not “something growing.”  I understand, though, why you must dehumanize the baby.  It’s the only way to make abortion palatable and acceptable.  To actually admit you’re killing a new human being would be absurd and unthinkable.

     

    It would certainly be a bit strange, because “the child in the womb” is not a “human being” in the way people normally mean the term, which at a minimum includes biological independence from other “human beings.”

     

    Not that this stops you from calling it a “human being,” of course. Just that others are just as right not to think of it that way.

     

    Yet, that is the truth about abortion.  Abortion kills.  It kills one life and leaves the other wounded in ways she was never, ever meant to be wounded.

     

    Most women are glad to have abortions when they need them. If abortion wounds you in ways you were never, ever meant to be wounded, then you can just choose not to have one. Other women can decide for themselves. It’s not like they’re dumb, you know.

  • c

    How would a woman know abortion would wound her in ways she was never, ever meant to be wounded unless she had one?? Kind of hard to head back to 20 years ago and undo what I have done, McFly.

  • jenh

    You can say all that about a pregnant woman, too. Why do you want to deny her control over her own body, reducing her to a “thing” forced to serve the needs of someone else?

     

    Of course.  I’m not reducing her to a “thing.”  You are, by declaring the baby a “thing.”  A pregnant woman is a mother, not a thing.  And yes, she does have an obligation to the new life she helped create.  She does not have the right to kill another person under the guise of “control.”

     It would certainly be a bit strange, because “the child in the womb” is not a “human being” in the way people normally mean the term, which at a minimum includes biological independence from other “human beings.”

     

    That’s absurd.  A human being is defined as

    “any individual of the genus Homo,  esp. a member of the species Homo sapiens.”
    The child is a distinct human being with her own DNA.  An individual.  And by your definition, toddlers could be considered not human because they are still dependent on their parents for survival.
    Most women are glad to have abortions when they need them.
    I am not so sure that women are “glad” to have abortions.  I’m sure there a hardened few who skip out of the clinic and pretend not to look back, and perhaps for a while they succeed in telling themselves they did the right thing, but there is no way a woman can kill her own child and not be affected by it.  And I notice you cannot refute the fact that abortion kills.  What you’re really saying is that you want the right to kill.  Not choose, but kill.  That’s the truth.

     

  • forced-birth-rape

    C you are not helping any one but your perverted self! You have a pornographic, sadomasochistic, fixation with pregnancy and birth, so much so that you and your odious pro-life ilk capitalize in pregnancy that came about by way of rape! You have the same mentality of women, little girls, and rape victims as pimps and rapist. I was sexually abused as a child, and everything you pro-lifers say scares me, it hurts me, it makes me feel gross, it has mad me cry. I hate hearing I am a baby-machine, just as mush as I hate hearing I am a sex-machine. You people are telling women, little girls, and rape victims the same thing pimps tell them, they are nothing but a vagina, one that must be used and abused, to bad if you don’t like it, get use to it, that is your purpose.

    Pro-Choice, is Anti-Force. Pro-life, is Pro-Force. No female likes force, when her vagina is involved.

  • mechashiva

    When a human is pregnant, there’s not a litter of kittens in her uterus.

    When a human is pregnant, there’s not a batch of cupcakes in there.

    We all know that a human embryo is human (duh) and alive (it’s not inanimate, duh).

     

    Whether you call it a “innocent preborn child” or a “parasite that looks like an alien” an embryo is what it is. So, can we all just drop the emotionally-loaded terms here and stick to calling it a “human embryo?” It’s stupid to argue about what an embryo is. The positive or negative value of the embryo’s life is subjective… because value in general is subjective.

     

    It’s also stupid to argue about what abortion is. Whether you call it murder or just another sugery, abortion is what it is. It ends a pregnancy and kills an embryo. The positive or negative value placed on abortion is subjective. That’s why there’s an argument about it in the first place.

     

    I’m pro-choice because I think the most ethical decision in any conflict of interest is the one that results in the least amount of suffering (psychological and somatic) for the greatest number of involved lives. That will be different in each woman’s situation, which she understands better than anyone else. I do not want the government or any other outside party making these decisions for people. I also don’t want anyone to be coerced or manipulated with misinformation. Sometimes, women choose abortion (or birth, I’ve seen this both ways) and later realize that this was not the best decision for them. This is not an argument in favor of limiting options… it is an argument in favor of reflection and self-empowerment in decision making so that we can make choices we will not regret.

  • mechashiva

    It’s called introspection, C. If we truely know ourselves and understand our circumstances, it is much easier to predict emotional fallout. However, predictions are never going to be infallible. We just have to do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time, and learn to accept our missteps. Otherwise, a person will never be able to forgive themselves for anything.

  • prochoiceferret

    How would a woman know abortion would wound her in ways she was never, ever meant to be wounded unless she had one?? Kind of hard to head back to 20 years ago and undo what I have done, McFly.

     

    Sure. Just like marriage, or adoption, or becoming a nun, abortion doesn’t come with a 100% satisfaction guarantee. However, you can do like you would do if you ate at a restaurant and got terrible service—you can choose not to give them repeat business. We support that choice too, you know.

  • jenh

    How would a woman know abortion would wound her in ways she was never, ever meant to be wounded unless she had one?? Kind of hard to head back to 20 years ago and undo what I have done, McFly.

     

    Which is why women need to be told the truth about abortion before they have one.  Women deserve better than abortion.

  • c

    Sorry,

    I stopped reading after perverted

  • c

    Jen H,

    So nice to see you here!! Agreed!! I was completely and totally lied to about abortion. Coerced into it by the lies that it is “just a bunch of cells.” Lied to by omission. Lied to about how far along I was. Lied to by being shown a film of a bunch of red circles.  I deserved better than abortion.

  • jenh

    It’s also stupid to argue about what abortion is. Whether you call it murder or just another sugery, abortion is what it is. It ends a pregnancy and kills an embryo.

     

    I appreciate the attempt at honesty, but how else can you describe a deliberate action that results in a dead human being except murder?

     

    I’m sorry that you feel the value of human life is subjective.  I hope the day does not come that someone else’s subjective definition of valuable human life declares your life not worthy and thus, extinguishable.

     

  • prochoiceferret

    Of course.  I’m not reducing her to a “thing.”  You are, by declaring the baby a “thing.”

     

    Technically, if something is not a “thing,” then it is “no-thing,” a.k.a. “nothing.” So, in the interest of excessive language pedantry, I must point out that you are reducing the baby to “nothing.”

     

    A pregnant woman is a mother, not a thing.

     

    All the pregnant women who say “I’m going to be a mother!” may be surprised by that.

     

    And yes, she does have an obligation to the new life she helped create.

     

    Yes. She has an obligation to either carry it to term, or abort it as early as is practical for her.

     

    She does not have the right to kill another person under the guise of “control.”

     

    No. But she does have a right to evict unwanted “human beings” from her body, whether or not they would survive the process.

     

    That’s absurd.  A human being is defined as “any individual of the genus Homo,  esp. a member of the species Homo sapiens.”

     

    And yet, most folks don’t use the term to describe fetuses, let alone zygotes. (Or Neanderthals, for that matter.) Just like we don’t normally use the word “animals” to describe bacteria.

     

    The child is a distinct human being with her own DNA.  An individual.

     

    An individual human being-person that doesn’t have the right to free life support from the body of an unwilling woman.

     

    And by your definition, toddlers could be considered not human because they are still dependent on their parents for survival.

     

    No, they are biologically independent. If the parents get hit by a bus, the toddler doesn’t die.

     

    I am not so sure that women are “glad” to have abortions.  I’m sure there a hardened few who skip out of the clinic and pretend not to look back, and perhaps for a while they succeed in telling themselves they did the right thing, but there is no way a woman can kill her own child and not be affected by it.

     

    Well, obviously, since that would be infanticide/murder. Women who have abortions, on the other hand, may also be affected by the procedure. But that’s not the same thing as saying that they aren’t glad to have had the abortion, or that they wouldn’t go through with it all over again. It’s not like all things in life are black and white, you know.

  • prochoiceferret

    I appreciate the attempt at honesty, but how else can you describe a deliberate action that results in a dead human being except murder?

     

    Self-defense.

     

    Capital punishment.

     

    Owning my body.

  • prochoiceferret

    Which is why women need to be told the truth about abortion before they have one.  Women deserve better than abortion.

     

    People deserve better than triple-bypass heart surgery, too, but that’s not exactly an argument for making triple-bypass heart surgery illegal… or to avoid having it done if you need it.

  • mechashiva

    Could you two please learn how to post your replies underneath the comments you are actually responding to? It’s easy… just click the “reply” button at the bottom of the comment you want to respond to rather than just typing in the box at the bottom of the page. A new page will open with the comment you are replying to at the top and a box for you to type your response beneath it. Your reply will then appear in the proper place on the page. It will keep the threads easier to read instead of making a huge mess.

     

    20 years ago, abortion clinics were run quite differently than they are now. Though I did sometimes hear one of the doctors at my clinic (where I worked a couple years ago) tell patients, “It’s not a baby,” (which I found problematic because it denies patients their feelings, and I always spoke with them about this when the doc was out of the room) I never heard anyone tell a patient, “It’s just tissue,” or “It’s just a clump of cells.” We always offered our patients an opportunity to look at the ultrasound and answered any questions they might have had about embryonic development. Out of the roughly 5,000 patients I saw, only one changed her mind after seeing the ultrasound, and she was late in her second trimester.

     

    Women today are much better educated about pregnancy, yet they still choose abortion. You can’t possibly think that 1.5 million women choose abortion each year because they don’t really know what they are doing.

  • jenh

    Sorry about confusing the comment thread.  Thanks for the tip.

     

     

  • mechashiva

    Perhaps “manslaughter” would be an appropriate term, if you feel the need to use a special word. Personally, I think abortion is a unique enough situation that “aborted” is a perfectly acceptable term to use. “Murder” has a very specific emotional connotation that I don’t think applies to abortion. Most women don’t feel a sense of malice toward the embryo they are aborting, and most people don’t feel the same way about women who choose abortion as they do about murderers. I’d even argue most people don’t feel the same about abortion-providing doctors that they do about murderers. That’s reason enough to me to distinguish between murder and abortion.

     

    I don’t think that there’s a problem with acknowledging that value, as a general concept, is subjective. I think we should make laws based on ethics… not subjective values.

  • jenh

    I think we should make laws based on ethics… not subjective values.

     

    I couldn’t agree more.  Ethically, it is wrong to kill a preborn human being.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Oh and rebellious you just contradicted been there who said abortion is murder.  Hard to keep the stories straight I suppose.

     

    No contradiction -

    beenthere72 said,

    I never said I believed abortion is murder – I said ‘by your logic’, not mine.  

     

  • mechashiva

    More people suffer when abortion is illegal than when it is safe and legal. Therefore, it is more ethical for abortion to be legal than illegal. It is more ethical to leave this decision up to the individuals effected (and capable of decision-making) than to let a third party, such as the government, make reproductive decisions for its populace.

     

    Edited to add:

    I have a question for you and any other pro-lifers who care to answer. Why are the words “abortion” and “embryo” not descriptive enough for you? Because when I hear the word “abortion” I get a mental image of the abortions I’ve actually seen. When I hear the word “embryo” I get a mental image of an embryo at around 8 weeks from the woman’s last menstrual period… “preborn human” really isn’t that descriptive, because it could be applied to an embryo or fetus at any point in gestation, and there’s a wide range of visuals to choose from to apply to that term.

  • saltyc

    FBIR, I read you loud and clear. You have a valuable perspective. Thank you for posting.

  • saltyc

    Why don’t you protest fertility clinics? They “kill” embryos too. They purposefully create more embryos, by your seeing, independant human beings like you and I, than can ever be implanted, and then murder them routinely by discarding them as if they were used kleenex. Why not get all worked about that murder industry????

     

    I think I already know the answer. Because you see women’s primary purpose as reproducers.

    I don’t see abortion as killing, just as withdrawing life support on an actual person who is brain dead isn’t killing, it’s withdrawing life support, it dies on its own.

     

    PS stop pretending that embryology settles the issue. Sperm and ova also have their own, distinct DNA that’s different from the source. That means nothing.

  • saltyc

    I knew the truth about fetal development when I had an abortion too, I researched it throroughly, looked at actual specimens and knew exactly what it looked like at the moment I had one. Who stopped you from doing the same???

     

    And when you say women deserve better than abortion, by “better” do you mean being thrown in a jail cell immediately after having an abortion, as happens routinely in Brazil and other “pro-life” countries?

    C, do you wish you had been thrown in jail for murdering your baby too? Is that what you deserved???

  • beenthere72

    Are women pro-lifers perverts too?   Seem more like nosey busybodies to me. 

  • jenh

    First, abortion is never safe for the baby.  The baby always suffers because she is always killed. 

    It is not terribly safe for mom, either, though the abortion industry works overtime to stifle that fact.

    As to your question, it’s not that the terms aren’t descriptive enough.  It’s that the abortion industry and the pro-choice crowd uses the word abortion to simply mean the end of a pregnancy, as though a pregnancy can exist without a baby.  It’s not a pregnancy that’s terminated – it’s the baby that’s terminated. 

     

    And they use the word embryo in a dehumanizing way.  “It’s not a person, it’s a group of cells called an embryo.  It’s not a child, it’s just an embryo.”  As though there’s a difference when there is not.  The point is that abortion kills a child.  It matters not whether the child is a zygote, an embryo, a fetus or a newborn.  Ethically, there is no difference.  Morally, there is no difference.  A child is being snuffed out through deliberate and violent means.  Abortion uses chemicals that burn and scalpels that slice and forceps that dismember.  It is very violent and brutal.  But the abortion industry tries to deny the brutality and portray abortion as a sanitary, clinical, no-big-deal experience.  It’s not a surgical procedure akin to a tonsillectomy.  It is violent.  It isn’t merciful, and it is certainly not ethical.

     

    The terms embryo and fetus are used to attempt to make the baby seem less than human, less than a person and therefore, it’s okay to “terminate” them.  It’s surely the only way that abortion advocates can live with themselves.  But it’s not honest.

     

  • saltyc

    Wrongo, you are the one distorting, you are the one romanticizing,  embryo and fetus  are a correct terms. You have no empathy or compassion, and you are an extremely troubled person. I had an abortion and have helped many other women get them, it is niether violent nor brutal.

  • c

    Just because your abortion clinic and those you assisted in aborting and the abortionists you worked with didn’t lie doesn’t mean abortion has come a long way, baby!

     

    20 years and the lies and deception around this “simple medical procedure”

    continue.  Here you go 

    http://www.liveaction.org

    Oh, and then say that the undercover videos are edited etc. :)

     

    You have made a huge leap by saying ALL women are much better educated about pregnancy. Prove it.

  • c

    How did abortion of 20 years ago NOT kill a growing child? Compared to today when abortion kills a growing child.

  • saltyc

    What kind of punishment do you deserve for murdering your child, C? How many years’ incarceration? Do you feel like Andrea Yates?

    When are you going to start taking responsibility for your own mistakes and stop punishing everyone else for them???

  • c

    Are you part of Operation Counterstrike? I get that question all the time from them. 

    Reading your comments is punishment enough.

  • mechashiva

    First, suffering and death are not the same thing. Suffering is anguish, a perception of psychological or somatic pain. Death is death, and may or may not involve suffering. Embryos and fetuses that are aborted do not experience suffering when they die, because their brains are not capable of percieving noxious stimuli. In the case of late second trimester abortions, during which time neurological capacity for pain perception is debateable, the point is moot because fetuses are injected with digoxin one day before the surgery… and so are dead when they are removed (therefore incapable of suffering during the abortion). Thus, arguments against abortion that are based on fetal suffering are not effective.

     

    Second, abortion is the safest surgery performed in America today. There are higher rates of complications associated with surgical removal of wisdom teeth. The abortion industry is not “stifling” anything… we have decades of research showing that legal abortion performed by medical professionals is safe for women. That is not to say that injuries never happen or that tragedy never befalls women who have abortions, but that the risks are so low as to be statistically negligible. Therefore, arguments against abortion based on the risks it poses to patient health are not effective, though patients should always be fully informed of the risks involved (informed consent, and all that).

     

    To you, gestational age may make no difference in the morality of abortion, but it should be obvious that it does for the majority of Americans. Most people agree that abortion should be legal in the first trimester, but you see that percentage of people decline as you increase the gestational age. Individuals such as yourselves may see no distinction, but the morality of our culture on a whole reflects a more moderate attitude toward abortion.

     

    Also, “chemicals that burn” are not used in any abortion procedure currently employed in America. Saline abortions have not been performed in this country since the 70’s. Also, scalpels are not used in surgical abortion procedures. First trimester early second trimester surgical abortion uses only suction. My office had a vaccuum aspirator that had the same strength as the machine that sucks spit out of your mouth at the dentist’s office. First trimester and early second trimester abortions are not gorey. In late second trimester cases, forceps are used to remove the fetus in peices (this is gorey).

     

    The problem I see with your argument about words is that it all depends on how people use them, not the words themselves. I use embryo and fetus so that people will have the appropriate picture in their heads of what I am describing. I think that if you can visualize an embryo or a fetus, then there is no need to go out of your way to humanize or dehumanize it, because you see for yourself what it is. If my patients lacked the knowledge to picture this, I made sure they had the option of educating themselves with a source that was not related to abortion. Then, they could decide for themselves how they felt about having an abortion at their gestational age. To me, that is the most honest thing to do.

     

    I don’t think that any woman believes that an abortion happens without the death of an embryo/fetus. Women aren’t stupid. We know the difference between pregnant and not-pregnant. I’ll accept that some activists minimize abortion, however, I do not think that the lexicon of activists on either side of the debate influences the decisions women make when choosing abortion.

  • forced-birth-rape

    I know that Paul Bradford Person who has hinted he researches little girls giving birth were he can convince women it is ok, is a pervert.

     

    There is something wrong with women who tell other women they cannot leave their husbands if he beats them, and that a fourteen year old who has been raped should stay pregnant. I have talked to a pro-life woman who said birth is like a car wreck if you die you die, there is “NEVER” a good reason to order an abortion, Never!

     

    What do you call these christian women who say if your husband rapes you, it is not rape.

    If your husband beats you, you can not leave him, and not come back.

    If a fourteen year old gets raped, she cannot get an abortion.

  • saltyc

    Ah, so you deserve less punishment than women in “pro-life” countries who are thrown in jail for exactly the same “crime” you commited. Sucks when Governments take your rhetoric seriously.

    For you, the punishment is reading challenging comments, for other women, it’s jail. Big heart you have there.

    PS I have no idea what counter-strike is, except for the online version of the amazing game Half-life.

  • mechashiva

    I’ve volunteered in numerous clinics, and my observation was that mine was not one of the best. It was average. Other clinics I went to did an even better job with patient education. I’ll stick to making inferences based on my own experiences and by looking at stats from unbiased websites, thanks. Besides, I don’t need to see any videos (edited or not) to know that there will always be employees at any kind of clinic who say shit that’s wrong. When that happens, disciplinary action needs to be taken against the wrongful employee… not against the entire branch of medicine.

     

    Also, I did not say “all women” are better educated about pregnancy. I said “women” are better educated… as in “women, in general.” The population is better educated, though individuals within that population may be more or less educated than the average level observed. It is the responsibility of medical professionals to help educate patients who do not have adequate understanding of whatever medical issue they are dealing with (regardless of the feild, be it ob/gyn or cardiology or whatever). Informed consent, and all that.

  • mechashiva

    I was discussing more the ways that abortion clinic staff handle patient education and the procedures used for abortion. It is obvious that abortion then and now both had the same end result, and so it is not worth pointing out.

     

    Seriously, there are more intellectually engaging discussions we could be having.

  • beenthere72

    Apparently it’s this:  http://operationcounterstrike.blogspot.com/ 

     

    Never heard of it before either.

  • c

    Ok. I won’t.

    Please tell me how you know what every abortion clinic says or doesn’t say?

    Don’t play dumb. 

    How do I know what women are told and not told at abortion clinics? By reading abortion stories by the thousands about how women are told nothing of the procedure, the risks and about the fetal development of their child.  

     

  • c

    This is a proabort blog.

    You want to talk weather?

  • mechashiva

    Well, I never claimed to know what every abortion clinic says, but I can make reasonable inferences based on the National Abortion Federation guidelines that all member clinics are expected to adhere to. I can also draw inferences based on the numerous clinics I have, you know, actually set foot in and seen people working. Spend a few months in a place, and you tend to get a good idea of what business-as-usual is like. I also made a point of asking all the doctors what the other clinics they worked at were like (I even worked with the woman who is heading the clinic intended to replace Dr Tiller’s). I also have several friends who have had abortions, and I have asked them about their experiences. I also read a lot of abortion stories on the internet, but I’d say my personal experience is the most reliable source of information I have about what women are told at abortion clinics. All in all, I’d say I have a better understanding of standard abortion clinic protocol than your average bear.

  • mechashiva

    I’d settle for staying on the topic of the original post, but you can blabber about whatever you like, I suppose.

  • ack

    C, first of all, I think it’s terrible that you were coerced into having an abortion. Carrying a pregnancy to term or terminating a pregancy should be choices that women make willingly and according to what they want and need in their lives at that time.

     

    I think it’s disingenuous, however, to hold a sign that simply says you regret your abortion in an attempt to dissuade other women from freely making that choice. I believe 100% that you do regret it. However, that wasn’t a choice you made willingly, which places it in a different category than most women’s abortions. (I’m not sure if I’m making myself clear, so I apologize if it’s hard to follow.)

     

    Additionally, the pro-choice movement is very supportive of programs that help women care for the children they choose to have. We support subsidized child care, workplace policies that are friendly to parents, health care access, parenting resources, access to education, and eliminating the wage gap that keeps women in worse socioeconimic situations than their male counterparts. We support access to contraception and education on how to use it as well as education on healthy sexuality and relationships. We support women, whether they’re happily pregnant or mothers, or don’t want to be either of those things now or ever.

     

    There’s a lot we have to do to create a culture that values women. I see keeping abortion legal and safe as one of those things, because it protects women’s lives. But I think we could all work together on a lot of the others. The frustrating thing is seeing policymakers fight against safe, legal access while simultaneously cutting the programs that assist women, pregnant or otherwise. If you really support those programs, I encourage you to look at the voting records of your local, state, and national legislators. I think you’ll find that a lot of the legislators who agree with you on restricting access don’t agree with you on providing assistance. Decide whether you think restricting access to abortion is more important or more effective than providing support to women who want to be pregnant, and want to be moms. 

  • ldan

    I am not so sure that women are “glad” to have abortions.  I’m sure there a hardened few who skip out of the clinic and pretend not to look back, and perhaps for a while they succeed in telling themselves they did the right thing, but there is no way a woman can kill her own child and not be affected by it.  And I notice you cannot refute the fact that abortion kills.  What you’re really saying is that you want the right to kill.  Not choose, but kill.  That’s the truth.

    I think you have a very restricted view of women if you think that only a hardened few are ‘glad’ to have the option of abortion open to them. All of the women I’ve met who have had abortions, myself included, were indeed glad of the ability to not remain pregnant. The internet abounds with their stories as well. Nor have I met any who were adversely affected by it. Not that I discount that there are women who are affected by it. Unlike you, I don’t feel the need to dismiss the actual experiences of women out there.

     

    Likewise, while very few people would look at a picture of a 5 week old embryo and call it a ‘child,’ I won’t tell a pregnant woman or one grieving a miscarriage that they don’t have the right to call their own embryo a child. I’d really appreciate all the anti-choice folks providing a similar courtesy and not forcing the term on those who don’t consider their unwanted embryoes to be children. Again, it’s a matter of respect for individual experience. Calling it a child is a disrespectful attempt to pull emotional strings.

     

    I seriously don’t understand how people can advocate that an embryo has the right to force a woman to risk her life in pregnancy and childbirth. Nobody else’s right to life includes the right to force others to risk their lives for them. But pre-people get that right? Makes no sense to me.

     

  • ack

    They also say that it could happen in other people’s communities. Since it was a medical tragedy, not their protests, do they want protestors to stand outside clinics with microwaves and UV lights, or hide asbestos somewhere?

     

    Schadenfraude. They’re doin it right.

  • jayn

    Additionally, the pro-choice movement is very supportive of programs that help women care for the children they choose to have. We support subsidized child care, workplace policies that are friendly to parents, health care access, parenting resources, access to education, and eliminating the wage gap that keeps women in worse socioeconimic situations than their male counterparts. We support access to contraception and education on how to use it as well as education on healthy sexuality and relationships. We support women, whether they’re happily pregnant or mothers, or don’t want to be either of those things now or ever.

     

    This can never really be said enough.  I support people being able to make their own choices, and for that to be possible people need to have options.  This includes access abortion, but also family friendly policies that allow women (and men) to raise familes in the way they desire.  A woman who has an abortion because she feels she has to, for whatever reason, isn’t making a choice.  And that’s just as heartbreaking to me as a woman who wants an abortion and can’t get one.

  • prochoiceferret

    This is a proabort blog.

     

    No, actually, it’s not. This is a pro-choice news and discussion site. If we were pro-aborts here, we would have said something like “Congratulations on having an abortion! Too bad you were coerced, but what really matters is that you went ahead and had an abortion.”

  • mechashiva

    I think they should just make generous donations of alcohol and cigarettes to the clinic staff. We need that shit to deal with their nonsense, so it might actually work.

  • julie-watkins

    The point is that abortion kills a child.  It matters not whether the child is a zygote, an embryo, a fetus or a newborn.  Ethically, there is no difference.  Morally, there is no difference.  A child is being snuffed out through deliberate and violent means. 

    I am not a mother; I am now in menopause, so I won’t be a mother unless we adopt (not likely). After 5 years of marriage, my IUD failed, I got an abortion and they got my tubes tied. From my PoV, I believe that [attempting to] give birth (give life) should be a  gift not an obligation. That’s the only way our society can [attempt to] be equitable. I believe this because biology is sexist in effect, because women are biologically forced to expend resources for the next generation while men are not. Then most modern societies take advantage of this, and classism is added. I realize there may be an ethical situation that’s more complicated than “my body, my choice” — but I think sex and class discrimination is a much more serious matter, and causes a lot more pain and suffering.

    To me, abortion a conditional “problem” — so long as the greater ethical problem of women’s oppression and classist oppression of the poor exist, the circumstance of an unwanted fetus ethically has to be decided by the woman and her chosen advisors. Or it’s added injustice to women and poor families.

  • c

    I see my work here is done. You can find me at Jill Stanek’s blog. ProLife Pulse. 

    Don’t be strangers now ya hear?

  • mechashiva

    Didn’t we hear this from you before? Maybe this time you’ll actually pick up your ball and go home instead of coming back for another inning of pointless trolling.

  • prochoiceferret

    I see my work here is done. You can find me at Jill Stanek’s blog. ProLife Pulse.

     

    Yes, I think your work of spouting emotionally manipulative anti-woman ideology is a lot better suited to Ms. Stanek’s site.

     

    Don’t be strangers now ya hear?

     

    If you don’t mind, I’d rather you remained a stranger.

  • jenh

    To you, gestational age may make no difference in the morality of abortion, but it should be obvious that it does for the majority of Americans. Most people agree that abortion should be legal in the first trimester, but you see that percentage of people decline as you increase the gestational age. Individuals such as yourselves may see no distinction, but the morality of our culture on a whole reflects a more moderate attitude toward abortion.

     

    Well, thank God that morality does not depend on the opinion of the majority but rather on objective truth — such as the inherent value of every human life from the moment of conception.

    Our culture is obsessed with sex; absolutely saturated with sex.  Everything in our lives these days revolves around sex and most people want to engage in sex with no consequences and no obligations.  So, of course most people will say that abortion should be legal, especially in the first trimester when they can more easily swallow the idea of killing a baby since the child is so small and mom doesn’t even look pregnant yet.  It’s not “real” yet, so it’s more palatable.

    The farther along in pregnancy the more squeamish people get about supporting abortion because now baby looks like a baby and toes can be counted and nobody wants to stand up and admit that they favor killing a tiny baby.

     

    It’s cowardly, dishonest, and self-serving.  Either abortion kills a child at every stage of pregnancy or it doesn’t at any stage.  Either it’s right or it’s wrong.  I’m consistent — I say the child in the womb is a human being from the moment of conception and killing that human being is always wrong.  It matters not what the baby looks like, how developed she is, how dependent she is, how much pain she can or can’t feel, etc, etc, etc.  There is never anything moral about killing a child in the womb, just as there is never anything moral about killing a child outside the womb.

     

    But most people don’t have the fortitude to make a definitive moral stand, because it requires a lot of them.  It requires, where abortion is concerned, that people treat sex much more reverently, as it should be because life is involved.  It requires people to be responsible for their actions and choices – the ones made before the pregnancy test is positive.  It requires people to see each other as more than objects of physical pleasure to be used whenever, wherever.  It requires people to grow up and think of someone besides themselves.

    But since people are obsessed with sex and sex is their god, people will reject anything that threatens their gratification and self-centered lives, so they choose abortion.  Abortion is promiscuity’s accomplice.

     

    And before someone launches into a rant about how sexually-repressed I must be, how afraid of sex or how imprisoned I must be, spare me.  Sex is a glorious thing and you’ll never hear me say otherwise.  But there is more to living than sex.  And sex and love are two different things.  People are consumed with sex because they do not know love.

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    Well, thank God that morality does not depend on the opinion of the majority but rather on objective truth — such as the inherent value of every human life from the moment of conception.

     

    As well as the value of the pregnant woman, and the evil of denying her control over what is happening within her own body.

     

    Our culture is obsessed with sex; absolutely saturated with sex.  Everything in our lives these days revolves around sex and most people want to engage in sex with no consequences and no obligations.

     

    People in general want to do anything they like with as few consequences and obligations as possible. That’s why we have corporations, medicine, and technology in general.

     

    So, of course most people will say that abortion should be legal, especially in the first trimester when they can more easily swallow the idea of killing a baby since the child is so small and mom doesn’t even look pregnant yet.  It’s not “real” yet, so it’s more palatable.

     

    Yes, of course. Why should we treat something that isn’t fully formed as though it were fully formed? At the point when most abortions are performed, the fetus is about as big as a kidney bean. You want people to get all worked up over that? Seriously?

     

    The farther along in pregnancy the more squeamish people get about supporting abortion because now baby looks like a baby and toes can be counted and nobody wants to stand up and admit that they favor killing a tiny baby.

     

    Yes, which is why late-term abortions tend not to happen without a good health-related reason.

     

    It’s cowardly, dishonest, and self-serving.  Either abortion kills a child at every stage of pregnancy or it doesn’t at any stage.  Either it’s right or it’s wrong.

     

    Okay, then, it’s right. If you really can’t handle anything but a black-and-white answer, then there you have it.

     

    I’m consistent — I say the child in the womb is a human being from the moment of conception and killing that human being is always wrong.  It matters not what the baby looks like, how developed she is, how dependent she is, how much pain she can or can’t feel, etc, etc, etc.  There is never anything moral about killing a child in the womb, just as there is never anything moral about killing a child outside the womb.

     

    Then your “morality” is pretty crude, callous, and lacking in humanity, because it denies women ownership of their own bodies. Especially when it comes to victims of rape.

     

    But most people don’t have the fortitude to make a definitive moral stand, because it requires a lot of them.  It requires, where abortion is concerned, that people treat sex much more reverently, as it should be because life is involved.  It requires people to be responsible for their actions and choices – the ones made before the pregnancy test is positive.  It requires people to see each other as more than objects of physical pleasure to be used whenever, wherever.  It requires people to grow up and think of someone besides themselves.

     

    Most people in healthy sexual relationships already do think of someone besides themselves. And they already take responsibility, by using contraception, aborting resulting pregnancies that are not wanted, and safely carrying to term those that are.

     

    But since people are obsessed with sex and sex is their god, people will reject anything that threatens their gratification and self-centered lives, so they choose abortion.  Abortion is promiscuity’s accomplice.

     

    Since when does people engaging in healthy sexual relationships amount to being “obsessed with sex,” having sex as their “god,” and leading “self-centered lives?” I think this attitude says more about you (and your own sexual frustration) than other people. And why is abortion more an accomplice to promiscuity than, say, sterilization?

     

    And before someone launches into a rant about how sexually-repressed I must be, how afraid of sex or how imprisoned I must be, spare me.  Sex is a glorious thing and you’ll never hear me say otherwise.  But there is more to living than sex.  And sex and love are two different things.  People are consumed with sex because they do not know love.

     

    No, I think it’s just that your notion of “love” doesn’t include sex. It probably helps lessen the pain of not being able to get any.

  • goatini

    I hadn’t seen anyone who had responded to my original post that you cited above, so I wasn’t sure if any of the regular posters here shared this opinion on the forced-birther / RCC philosophy of women’s rights, reproductive and otherwise.

     

    As a cradle Catholic, I felt driven away from, and by, my Church at an early age.   I remembered my mother telling me about the advice offered to her by the local parish priest when she was a young mother of two little girls, 2 years apart, and  had just given birth to my younger sister’s “Irish twin”, The Longed For Son.  She was bone-tired and we were broke, struggling for 5 of us to make it with my immigrant dad working two full-time jobs, the factory during the day and the bakery at night.  Back in those days, it was common to go to the priest for daily living advice.  In exhaustion and desperation, she asked Father if there was anything that was permissible that she could do to stop the babies from coming every 16 to 24 months.  He told her that actually, there was nothing that she could do that was not a grave sin, and that “G-d would provide”.  I suppose he did her a favor, since as soon as the birth control pill was available, she signed up immediately.  Once she was in control of her essential humanity and dignity, she’d often make wry, bitter comments about old Father “G-d-Will-Provide”.   

     

    (Yes, of course there was the diaphragm back in those days, but anyone who’s ever wrestled with the jelly-coated rubber cat yarmulke knows it was a logistical nightmare, guaranteed to totally ruin HER enjoyment by the time it was finally secured and the extra plunger full of cold nasty squishy Ortho-Gynol deployed Down Below. But I digress.)

     

    For many, many years, I’ve asked myself, HOW can the RCC consider woman’s ONLY holy calling and role in life to be a destiny of constant reproduction without possibility of any reprieve?  

     

    After a long walk on the beach a few weeks ago, it came to me with crystal clarity:  BECAUSE WE ARE LIVESTOCK.

     

    “goatini” is my screen name for a very basic reason:  I love goats.  I visit goat farms, and attend livestock shows, whenever I have the chance.  I’ve never owned them, but have read and studied much about their care and feeding.  And as much as you might have a special love and communication with certain special does in your herd, the reality is that if you have a working farm of any kind, the Law Of The Barnyard must be followed if the herd is to thrive and survive.   For those of you who are farmers, you know the rules as well as I do:

     

    Ideally, the doe has healthy kids and remains healthy herself.

     

    If the doe has problems in breeding and birthing, but she and the kids both live, that is good too, but it would be better if everyone were healthy throughout the process.  You will likely want to breed her again at the first reasonable opportunity, since you will want to see if she has trouble again.  She might not be the best genetic legacy to maintain within your herd.  Her value is in breeding healthy kids and reliably providing a good supply of milk.  If she is not completely healthy after birth, she may be put on medications that will taint her milk.  Her kids will need to nurse off of another doe, or you may need to bottle-feed them.  And you’re out the milk from your doe.  

     

    If the doe has problems in breeding and birthing, and she dies, but the kids do not, that’s also not so good, but this is probably an indication that the doe’s gene pool probably should not be a legacy of your herd.  Time to get a new doe.

     

    If the doe has problems in breeding and birthing, and both she and the kids die, that’s also not so good, but better that the genetic deficiencies showed up sooner than later, before your investment suffered any more risk.  Time to get a new doe.

  • goatini

    She tells it like it is to those whose suffusion of fake piety offends the humanity and dignity of all women who value their autonomy, their ineffable personhood, over all attempts to enforce cultural and religious oppression.  

     

    I would be pleased and honored if some forced-birther dominionist cultist thought *I* was Operation Counterstrike.  

  • jenh

    PCF, your attacks are childish, ignorant, vulgar and uncalled for.  It betrays the anger in your heart at not knowing what real love is.  I’m sorry for you.  The saddest part is that you are loved immensely and completely by the God who gave His own life for yours.  I wish you knew that.  I pray someday you will.

  • goatini

    To paraphrase Spencer Tracy:

     

    “Ms. Stanek, we paid for this microphone.”

     

     

  • kevin-rahe

    I believe this because biology is sexist in effect, because women are biologically forced to expend resources for the next generation while men are not.

     

    It is as if you are at war with your own foot.

  • goatini

    Because trolling the Web for blank walls where you can spray your anti-Woman As Fully Human hate speech works SO much better than working to maintain an educational website containing scientific facts, news, and useful health care information.  

  • colleen

    I would be pleased and honored if some forced-birther dominionist cultist thought *I* was Operation Counterstrike. 

     

    That’s unfortunate. OC is the project of some ‘pro-life’ trolls after one of their own assassinated George Tiller. The blog is an effort to prove that the pro-choice community is as violent and prone to accept mental and moral defectives as the religious right  and the ‘pro-life’ movements are.

    Their efforts to promote moronic blogs like ‘operation counterstrike’  have been repeatedly banned here because, unlike the ‘pro-life’ movement we do not try to further the pro-choice movement with bullying, lies, intimidation, false expressions of piety and/or criminal behavior. I must say that mention of OC is always a good indication of who the trolls and sock puppets are.

    RH is not a blog where the promotion of violence and intimidation is acceptable.

  • goatini

    I had no idea.   I’ve looked at it a few times, and I guess I didn’t look deeply enough.  Of course they’d run up a false flag to salute, they have no morals and no conscience.

     

    Deleting my comment.

     

    Um, i should say, I tried to delete my comment, but oddly, THAT comment does not show an Edit button.  Strange…..

  • prochoiceferret

    PCF, your attacks are childish, ignorant, vulgar and uncalled for.  It betrays the anger in your heart at not knowing what real love is.  I’m sorry for you.  The saddest part is that you are loved immensely and completely by the God who gave His own life for yours.  I wish you knew that.  I pray someday you will.

     

    JenH, your God is like a creepy guy who tries to spy on me through my bedroom window using binoculars, hoping that one day I’ll realize what a great person He is for “loving” me so much. My God believes that women are valuable in and of themselves, and that denying them control over their own bodies, lives, and destinies merely because they are pregnant is by far a worse sin than anything you claim to be up in arms about.

     

    Oh, and next time you talk to your God via prayphone, tell him that if He tries to lay so much as an angel’s feather on me, my God will kick the supernatural worshipping hallelujahs out of Him so fast He’ll think Judgment Day came up and took Him by surprise.

  • arekushieru

    OR a universe in which women could directly control ovulation, fertilization, implantation, gestation, childbirth and developmental location.  Of course, there would be no such thing as antis because they would have come to the realization that they can’t paternalistically control women’s bodies, ANYways!

  • mechashiva

    You really are incapable of viewing this issue in anything other than black-and-white terms, and that’s why you (and people like you) are so out of touch with the rest of the country. You set yourselves up as the only special snowflakes who “really” understand the issue. It’s incredibly patronizing, because when you get right down to it y’all are just looking down your noses from up on your moral high-horse.

     

    Newsflash… people aren’t as evil, ignorant, “misguided,” or other perjorative term as you think they are, and they really resent your holier-than-thou attitude. You couldn’t possibly accept the idea that perhaps a well-educated, thoughtful, well-intentioned person could come to different conclusions about morality than you. You believe there is an objective truth that everyone knows deep-down (philosophers have discarded that idea for centuries), and of course it just happens to be a “truth” that matches up with your opinions on morality.

     

    Spare you talk of prudery? Spare me your superiority complex.

  • arekushieru

    Please do explain…?  If pregnancy is not the most resource-expending burden, with the added menstrual and breastfeeding requirements from the female body, then why the hell do you think there are so many complications (inCLUding loss of life) from pregnancy, itself?  Hmmm…?

  • arekushieru

    To me, abortion must always be allowed in order for women to NOT experience oppression.  ^_^;

  • bj-survivor

    regret a choice than regret a child, myself. I’d rather there be a million, billion, gazillion abortions any day over *just one* malnourished or starved or resented or neglected or abused or raped or thrown away or murdered actual, born child (you know, one that can actually experience pain and the condition of suffering, unlike an embryo and early/mid trimester fetus).

     

    I would rather that Susan Smith, Casey Anthony, and Andrea Yates et al, ad nauseum had terminated their pregnancies rather than created children only to abuse and murder them. Call me callous, if you’d like, but I really couldn’t care less about the plight of insensate clusters of barely differentiated human tissue.

     

    But, hey, I might agree with you and support abortion bans when you guys figure out how to give every child who would have otherwise been aborted a safe, loving, and nurturing home where they have a chance at a good future.

  • bj-survivor

    War. Which the vast majority of pro-lifers seem to be quite gung ho about, even when such war is proven to have been begun under false pretenses.

     

    Protection of personal property (in some states).

     

     

  • rebellious-grrl

    Jen your anti-choice culture is obsessed with other people’s sex lives.

    If you haven’t noticed we as pro-choice people are taking a moral stand to trust women to make a decision that is right and moral for them. Whether it is to have an abortion or to continue a pregnancy. It’s her choice. Her body. Saying you or the anti-choice side has the definitive answer to when a fetus becomes a person is morally wrong and self-serving. Theologians, philosophers, politicians, etc. have debated when personhood starts for thousands of years. Abortion is NOT MURDER. Period. A fetus is not a person, not a baby. So please get over your self-serving pompous self. The anti-choice side is the epitome of “cowardly, dishonest, and self-serving.” So quit projecting yourself on us.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Hey Jen, still waiting for you to cast the demons out of us. You are really pious and annoying. Quit proselytising here. No one needs your religion, I have my own thank you very much.

  • colleen

    I don’t know for certain who started OC. What I do know is that it was started immediately after the Tiller assassination, that they were advocating the use of violence in response. He/she started spamming this blog for readers during that time while, simultaneously, the ‘pro-life’ folks were responding here to the Tiller murder by insisting that the pro-choice movement was just as violent.

    The OC creator spammed this site many times and every time he/she spammed this site within a few minutes (and sometimes seconds) the same  ‘pro-life’ poster would appear and demand that the editors remove the post.  This happened consistently and over a period of several weeks.

    I strongly believe that we should never stoop to the vile tactics of the ‘pro-life’ movement. A movement based on lies, bullying, intimidation, and violence will lose in the end and I hope to live long enough to watch that ending.

     

    PS I am also very fond of goats

  • kitty

    I am going to try to hand this list out. However, as wonderful and sensical as it is, the antis at our clinic are also very much opposed to birth control. It’s sickening.

    I am also very sorry for the loss of a great man. I know he is going to be sorely missed, as he sounds like a beautiful person. The antis are full of lies and hypocrisy, which I witness every Saturday morning. They disgust me as they gleefully try to make women cry. 

  • kitty

    Coerced? Really? by whom? How totally spineless of you. Today we turned down two women for abortions at the clinic, and this is not unusual. One said, once in with the counselor, that she did not want one, but her boyfriend wanted her to have one so she was going to do it. We refused. The other wasn’t sure, but said she wanted to get it over with before she changed her mind. So, again, we refused and told her to come back when she was sure.

    So, I am sorry you feel you were coerced, but it was ultimately YOUR CHOICE. And YOU have NO RIGHT to tell other women they should not have the very same choice you did, Little Miss. YOU are keeping women down by your intolerance. How DARE you?! Hypocrite! 

    Today we had several women in who had to have abortions to save their lives. So, they were hounded by the people outside the clinic telling them they were going to hell, and not to murder their babies, yada  yada yada. Yet, they WANTED to give birth, but they were not able to. So, yeah, they felt real good going into a procedure where their bodies really needed them to be calm. These idiots do not care about women. They are bullies pure and simple. It is obvious by their actions. And if you stand out there with your sign, C, then YOU are a bully too.

  • prowomen

    Dr. Harrison is a hero just as Dr. Tiller was.  

     

    We need more like them, who aren’t afraid of the bullies that threaten them every day and want to destroy their lives one way or the other: Incidents of violence against abortion providers by “pro-life” “Christians” in the U.S. and Canada since 1977 include:  8 murders, 17 attempted murders, 41 bombings, 100 butyric acid attacks, 659 anthrax threats, 175 arsons, 96 attempted bombings/arsons, 390 invasions; 1,400 vandalisms, 1,993 trespassings, 179 assault and battery incidents, 406 death threats, 4 kidnappings, 151 burglaries, 525 stalkings, 13,995 hate mail/harassing calls, 339 email/internet harassments, 148 hoax devices/suspicious packages, 642 bomb threats, 141,837 incidents of picketing, 763 clinic blockades and 33,834 arrests, with many assaults on escorts and patients never reported.  No one should have to work in a legal occupation under threat of bodily harm.  


    Those murdered health care workers were human beings recognized by the Constitution.  Even Supreme Court Justice and Catholic Antonin Scalia agrees with the Constitution that only those BORN should be recognized as human beings.


    If fertilized eggs were given the legal status of a human being as promoted by some, among those who would profit most would be attorneys suing on behalf of fetuses and pregnant women in accident cases, defending or prosecuting doctors who provide health services to women and defending or prosecuting the criminals resulting from more unwanted children.  

    Liability insurance premiums would soar from the increased risk assumed by insurers to cover a pregnant woman and her fetus or fetuses as separate human beings with their own legal rights.  A lawyer could sue on behalf of a fetus at any stage of development to protect its health from the perceived risky behavior of the woman.  Wrongful life lawsuits would be brought by parents on behalf of their handicapped children with severe abnormalities to pay for their life-long care.  

    The cost to enforce a law that prohibits abortion and confers personhood (humans capable of certain kinds of thought, and thus exclude embryos, early fetuses, or adults with certain types of brain damage) to an embryo would be astronomical and impossible to enforce.  Doctors would have to report the names of pregnant women to the government.  The common miscarriage would be a matter for criminal investigation.  Would a woman from another country be allowed to claim American citizenship for her embryo if impregnated while in America?  

    The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists reported that 3 out of every 100 babies born in the United States have some kind of major birth defect.  There are more than 3,000 different known birth defects leading to mental or physical disabilities, and they are the leading cause of death in the first year of life.  Sarah Palin admitted she considered having an abortion, but she wants to prevent other women from having that same choice and would support candidates that are opposed to all abortions even if from incest or rape. 

     At least 2,000 children in the United States die of child abuse and neglect each year.  In 2005, about 800,000 children were placed in foster homes because of abuse or neglect, with only about 52,000 adopted.  Those who regret their abortion should show their compassion by being a foster parent or adopt one of these children who were clearly unwanted from birth.  In 2004, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported suicides among children and young adults accounted for 4,599 deaths, making it the third-leading killer for ages 10 to 24 after vehicle accidents and homicides.  They were actual human beings recognized by our Constitution but no one picketed to save their lives.

    The ACLU reported:
     The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has told all Catholic hospitals to withhold emergency reproductive care from dying women. 

     Federal law says that when a person’s life is at risk, emergency rooms at every single hospital in the country are required to provide treatment. That means that a hospital’s religious affiliation is no excuse for disregarding the rule of law or for putting a patient’s life in jeopardy. 

     Recently, a pregnant woman suffering from pulmonary hypertension was taken to St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix, AZ.  Doctors were confident the young woman would die without urgent care. 

     Yet when the nurse—a Catholic nun with more than 30 years experience—authorized a life-saving abortion, she was asked to resign by the local bishop, sending a message to her colleagues. 

     Researchers have shown that across the U.S., religiously affiliated hospitals have repeatedly and illegally denied emergency medical care to pregnant women. And, often, these religiously affiliated hospitals are the only place for many women to obtain medical treatment. 


    Pregnant women are being made victims of negligent homicide at Catholic Hospitals even if they are not Catholic and even though the Constitution guarantees the freedom to practice whichever religion we choose or to choose none.  

    It’s bad enough that several women die every day from childbirth without tax-supported hospitals getting away with what most people would call “murder.”
  • goatini

    May I just comment that the nearest hospital to my home is run by the Daughters of Charity, and I have standing instructions to NOT be taken there under almost any circumstances.  Though I am past my child-bearing years, I still do not trust Catholic health care institutions to reliably act in my best interests at any time in my life, particularly during any kind of a health crisis.  

     

    As it’s already been established into Canon Law by the hospital’s top level executives in Rome that I have less intrinsic value than a male, less intrinsic value than a ZBEF, and even less intrinsic value than the ZBEF’s container, or “baby oven”, I have ample reason to believe that a Catholic hospital would immediately deprioritize a woman like me in an emergency or disaster triage situation, where care and resources are rationed.  

  • princess-rot

    Well, thank God that morality does not depend on the opinion of the majority but rather on objective truth — such as the inherent value of every human life from the moment of conception.

     

    I do not find much point in a nebulous, murky concept like “inherent value of every human life”, which promptly ends at birth if you’re female, because from thereon your sexual organs and what you do or don’t do with them can be used to decide whether you are actually “worthy” of personhood. That can also happen if you’re disabled, poor, or the “wrong” creed, race, nationality… or a little later on if you’re GLBT etcetera ad nauseam.

     

    Nice to know people only have inherent worth as long as their presence can be used to oppress those whom you don’t think are “innocent” enough, having fell foul of your “objective truth” that sexual “purity” equals “human”. I expect it’s old way of dividing whores and virgins – you can generally tell that a pregnant woman has been in sexual contact of some sort and is now contaminated by coitus, the only way she can repent of her sinfulness (and it’s always hers, only lip service is ever paid to a man’s input) is in pain. Whether that be guilt, shame or childbirth, ideally it’s all three. What a hideous narrative. Puts the whole concept of worth as a valuable philosophy to bed, doesn’t it?

     

    *For regulars here, I have a massive problem with the philosophy that personal worth comes from other people** and must be earned. When worth is only words and subjectiveness and we have existing oppressions and isms, a human-worth meritocracy with real lives as it’s currency but only hot air as it’s credit guarantee, gives rise to horrible abuses. People can be defined as not being “worthy” and those mitigating factors can be anything from implied gender presentation or past sexual activity, for example.

     

    **Likewise, I don’t believe ZBEF’s have “worth”, because worth in itself is only words, which are often pointless and meaningless. I prefer the idea that women own their bodies, and don’t have to provide life support to anyone against their will, judgments notwithstanding. Like all men ever.

  • forced-birth-rape

    My southern Baptist preacher grandfather told me when I was little that he adored the wife Mary from “It’s a Wonderful Life” because she had such innocence and child like about her, but he knew she was not innocent because she was a mother.
    If a woman is a mother she is condemned for not being a virgin, if she is a virgin she is condemned for not being a mother, unless she is a nun.
    That is was I learned in the religion I was raised in.

  • rebellious-grrl

    You’re welcome goatini – I really liked what you wrote and had to repost it if anyone had missed it. I completely got what you said and share your opinion. I grew up as a Catholic and left the church as soon as I could. I really hate hearing the phrase “God will provide” or “It’s God’s will.” What a bunch of crap. Women should be in control of their own fertility and their own destiny and can’t do that if they are considered livestock.

    I like your screen name. I am a fan of goats too.

  • julie-watkins

    I started to answer Kevin & I decided there was no point. But now that he’s not here I’d like to comment on the kind of Sex-Role thinking that would cause him to make such a comment as~

    It is as if you are at war with your own foot.

    ~when I made clear I consider biology is sexist.

    Basically, if the game is rigged why would someone think it’s OK to tell me that I’m at war with myself. Funny, I’d say that it’s biology that’s at war with women in general. Insert my usual rant about how large brain size is such an evolutionary advantage that genes for a reproductive system that frequently mames or kills during childbirth still breeds true. Then society has taken advantage and is also sexist and classist.

    I don’t see there’s any problem with trying to improve on human biology. We do it all the time. So I don’t feel like apologizing. It certainly should be immoral to say the system is unjust.

  • forced-birth-rape

    ~Julie Watkins the comment you are talking about I really liked, I thought it very smart. I have it saved. Thank you for it.~

  • crowepps

    The thing I find puzzling is that they can’t seem to grasp that it is the possession of a MIND that motivates women to attempt to control their biology.  The ‘natural’ process is for sex to result in 8 to 20 pregnancies resulting in 6 to 16 live births and then for a lot of those children to die in childbirth or of disease or starvation (or as adults from starvation or childbirth) so that a couple ends up having only one to four live adult children at the time they die.  Some people didn’t have ANY live descendants at their own deaths.  Or the ever popular option for couples who DIDN’T want children of dropping off a succession of them at the orphanage where they were neglected till dead.  ‘Traditional’ orphanages had a 90% mortality rate before age one.  Some managed to kill ALL their foundlings.

     

    Why on Earth wouldn’t women be ‘at war’ with that natural process?  Given the advances in medicine, it makes a lot more sense for women who don’t want children to not have children and for those who actually WANT to have children to choose the number that can actually be adequately sheltered, clothed and fed and then keep that chosen number alive and healthy.

  • julie-watkins

    I’m glad you thing my thought that “biology at war against women” was worth saving. (Grinning) To develop the idea further (which I’ve done in the past), there are trade-offs in human evolution. I’ve read a comparison (can’t remember where) of maternal risks in human vs. primate births. A normal primate birth is not the strain to the female’s system that a human birth is. The larger brain size makes birthing much harder/dangerous for the human mother compared to the primate. The bigger brain was such an advantage that a process that kills a significant fraction of mothers still breeds true. The mother’s genes are going to be passed down if she manages, for instance, 4 live births before the 5th birth kills her. Even the genes that cause a woman to die with her first birth may be passed down if there’s another mother in the vicinity who’s still got milk and adopts the baby.

    Nature is Sexist (more biological burden on the female than the male) but Nature is also Sloppy: it’s very inefficient about conceptions. There’s many miscarriages. If the woman is under a lot of stress, if the genes in the fetus aren’t good. Good outcomes, good timing, and good genes are more important than not wasting conceptions. So I think this is a biology-based support for the idea of [attempting to] give birth is a gift not an obligation.

    I don’t like that nature treats women as throw-away. It angers me that the patriarchy, churches & the top 1% go out of their way to treat women — and poor people — as throw-away.

  • bethh

    It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who are against abortion are also against all contraception. The same people tend to be against various programs to feed, house, or educate poor children. A greater number of children in the third world die EACH YEAR from lack of something as simple and basic as clean drinking water! The leading cause of death for infants worldwide is diarrhea – often caused by mixing (donated) formula with unclean drinking water. It’s as if they believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth. Perhaps their belief is that the basic life form is the zygote, and all other stages of human life are merely to support the creation and life of zygotes. This would be laughable and absurd if it did not seem to have a basis in fact. It seems that the children who are already born do not have rights to even the most basic requirements for life. Their right to live slogan falls apart right there.

     

    It already fell apart in murdering abortion doctors or other clinic workers, as well as murdering people unrelated to abortion, such as people walking by a clinic when the bomb goes off. This has included all sorts of people, including paperboys, children, and elderly who were certainly not trying to give or get an abortion.

     

    Seriously, I always have to worry that if these nutjobs actually get abortion illegalized, and contraception soon following, how long it will be until women – ALL FEMALES BETWEEN AGES 7 AND 87 – are required to get some sort of official pregnancy test EACH MONTH. If one is positive, and the one the next month is negative, the woman is presumed to have had an abortion unless she can show a live baby to whom she gave birth. Claims that the previous month’s test was a false positive would be up to the woman to prove – and one cannot prove a negative, especially since  confirmation tests would likely be unacceptable.  Stillbirths would probably be investigated as murders, and the mother along with possible accomplaces including fathers, midwives, grandmothers, and other children – and people charged if there were even a remote possibility that the life could have been saved with any extant technology – even if it was unavailable to them. We’re already seeing child abuse cases filed on behalf of foetuses whose mothers are engaging in “risky” hobbies or behavior, not eating right, taking dangerous drugs or medications or on and on. Where does it end? Is a woman’s uterus public property?