Angle Says Pregnant Rape Victims Should Turn a “Lemon Situation Into Lemonade”


Nevada Republican Senate candidate Sharron Angle has been pretty vocal on her views on opposing abortion even in cases of rape and incest.  Earlier she spoke that babies conceived out of rape needed to be birthed as we couldn’t understand God’s plan for them.

Now she has gotten even quainter, telling rape victims they should “make lemons out of lemonade,” in a recent interview with conservative host Alan Stock.

Via Huffington Post:

Stock: Let me bring up one other topic that I rarely talk about here, because it’s one of those topics that’s a lose-lose, but we’ve got to talk about it because it was brought up in your TV interview and that has to do with the issue of abortion, and whether or not abortion should be available in the case of rape or incest. The question to you at the time by the interviewer was that do you want the government to go and tell a 13 year-old child who has been raped by her father that she has to have that baby. And of course you responded ‘I didn’t say that I always say that I value life.’ Where do you stand on the issue of abortion, a consensual abortion, from a person who is raped or is pregnant as a result of incest?

Angle: Well right now our law permits that. My own personal feelings and that is always what I express, my personal feeling is that we need to err on the side of life. There is a plan and a purpose, a value to every life no matter what it’s location, age, gender or disability. So whenever we talk about government and government’s role, government’s role is to protect life and that’s what our Founding Father said, that we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Stock: What do you say then to a young girl, I am going to place it as he said it, when a young girl is raped by her father, let’s say, and she is pregnant. How do you explain this to her in terms of wanting her to go through the process of having the baby?

Angle: I think that two wrongs don’t make a right. And I have been in the situation of counseling young girls, not 13 but 15, who have had very at risk, difficult pregnancies. And my counsel was to look for some alternatives, which they did. And they found that they had made what was really a lemon situation into lemonade.

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  • paul-bradford

    Will somebody please explain to me why there should be a difference between forcing a poor, dispirited, physically immature, thirteen year old girl who’s been raped by her father to give birth versus forcing a healthy, happy, prosperous, married twenty-eight year old woman who’s been impregnated as a result of a loving consensual union with her husband to give birth?  It seems to me that anyone who can understand why it’s wrong to coerce one woman to give birth can understand why it’s wrong to coerce ANY woman to give birth.  It’s doubly patronizing to force some women to carry their pregnancies to term and then establish criteria for allowing ‘deserving’ women to escape the stipulation.

     

    Those of us who want to protect the unborn had better abandon the policy of trying to force women to do anything.  The issue isn’t forcing women, it isn’t even convincing women, the issue is opening people’s eyes to the value of fetal life and allowing women to see for themselves that the life of a fellow human being merits the sacrifice of pregnancy.

  • sylvie

    I would not ever, ever carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to a new life that I am not sure I would be able to take care of and protect, especially if I had been raped. I would rather die, and for sure I would not give it up for adoption when I know, for sure, that most people desire to have children come from their unconscious need to have an available objects to take out, avenge for the wrongs done to them by their own parents. Most pro-lifers suffer and want to make sure others suffer too, secretly they enjoy seeing others suffer, it’s like they want to make sure they have an endless supply of new victims, scapegoats to use, exploit and use as their poison container.  Are you saying the unborn life has more value than my life, lived life? I am sorry my life has more value to me than unborn life and keep your believes to yourself and let the rest of us make our decisions without confusion us with your screw up believes.  You are the one that needs to open your eyes. Read the article in the link below, maybe, will help you to open your eyes.

    http://www.sylvieshene.com/articles-protecting_life_after_birth.htm

  • beenthere72

    I would not want to be born into the world knowing my father is also my grandfather and my mother is also my sister.    That would not make for a happy, healthy life and is no way ‘god’s plan’.   Was it ‘god’s plan’ to make dad a rapist/child molester?   That’s a sick god.  

  • quentin0352

    Since men who are raped, boys who are molested and worse have no rights but are still required to support any children that result, then it would be equal treatment is all. Since I have yet to see any women who are outraged and present the rare cases like a father raping her daughter be outraged are when a mother rapes her son, it is interesting to see the lack of demands about equality then. I find it a simple argument and belief that until men are granted the right to “paper abort” with equal requirements and restrictions and women to abort, then it should be banned under the constitutional rights to equal treatment.

     

    I suggest reading the following case law article on men’s reproductionve rights vs their responsibilities to get an idea.

     

    http://www.childsupportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html

     

    http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/08/16/janecrane.ART_ART_08-16-08_B1_T0B1RSR.html?sid=101

     

  • ahunt

    What About The Menz?!

  • catseye71352

    While the molestation of boys is just as heinous as the molestation of girls, at least the boy will never be forced to bear a child to his molester.

  • paul-bradford

    Most pro-lifers suffer and want to make sure others suffer too, secretly they enjoy seeing others suffer, it’s like they want to make sure they have an endless supply of new victims, scapegoats to use, exploit and use as their poison container.

     

    sylvie,

     

    I’m not going to try to account for the motivation of other Pro-Lifers, but I’m happy to share with you my reasons for upholding the rights of the unborn.

     

    I am keenly aware of my own dependency and vulnerability.  I don’t have the power, on my own, to secure my happiness, preserve my life or defend my rights.  I need the support of other people to do these things.  The dependency and vulnerability I detect in myself I also see in the people around me.  It’s obvious to me that other people need my support as much as I need theirs.  We are, as I often say, at each other’s mercy.  If I were to articulate my core religious or philosophical belief it is this: Other people’s lives are every bit as important and valuable as my own.  To strip this belief down to two words I would say: Respect Life.

     

    My life is valuable, and yours is too.  It doesn’t make any sense to me to think that I acquired my value by being born.  I can’t help but believe that my life had value in the months prior to my birth.  I also can’t help but believe that the lives of those currently preparing to be born are also valuable.

     

    My vision of the society I want to live in, and the world I want to live in is one where we all uphold each other’s rights and we all work to preserve each other’s lives.  There’s nothing in this vision that takes pleasure in suffering.  When I consider how precious and valuable human life is I feel a sense of surpassing joy.  Do I want to ‘victimize’ you with this sense of joy?  I confess that I do.  I believe that a sensitivity to the worth of all human life, including the lives of the unborn, leads a person to the conclusion that life is good.

     

    If I had it in my power I’d want to convince you that life is good.

  • paul-bradford

    Was it ‘god’s plan’ to make dad a rapist/child molester? That’s a sick god.

     

    beenthere,

     

    If God has a plan, She’s depending on us to execute it. That’s why I think it makes to think about what people ‘should’ do as well as what people actually do.

     

    Life is messy.  More precisely, life is imperfect, impermanent and mortal.  Like it or not, that’s the only kind of life we get.  Nobody wants to be the fruit of an incestuous branch on the family tree, but justice is expressed in our willingness to make the best out of a bad situation.  A victim of rape gets to choose whether to present her child with a difficult life or to end it entirely.  Her decision will be informed by whether or not she believes an imperfect life is worth living.

  • paul-bradford

    Was it ‘god’s plan’ to make dad a rapist/child molester? That’s a sick god.

     

    beenthere,

     

    If God has a plan, She’s depending on us to execute it. That’s why I think it makes to think about what people ‘should’ do as well as what people actually do.

     

    Life is messy.  More precisely, life is imperfect, impermanent and mortal.  Like it or not, that’s the only kind of life we get.  Nobody wants to be the fruit of an incestuous branch on the family tree, but justice is expressed in our willingness to make the best out of a bad situation.  A victim of rape gets to choose whether to present her child with a difficult life or to end it entirely.  Her decision will be informed by whether or not she believes an imperfect life is worth living.

  • saltyc

    I can’t help but think

    Paul, you really need to fix your thinking, and yes you can help it.

    Yes all human beings are valuable but that does not mean that therefore the more humans the better always. That is the road to extinction.

    And it does not mean that anyone is a human being before they’re born whether or not their would-be mothers want to birth them, that also leads to disaster and misery. 

    A happy world is one where we help each other fulfil our dreams, which includes helping women get abortions who would otherwise be forced to bear a child, which I do proudly and have helped many. You are just helping give people shame and guilt, face it, you can’t help but beleive you are doing good but you are actually doing very, very bad. And you do take pleasure in suffering, when you told me here that I would do well to cry more. Fact.

  • beenthere72

    Just for the record:  I do not believe in your God, but it’s cute that you said ‘She’.     

  • crowepps

    And you do take pleasure in suffering, when you told me here that I would do well to cry more. Fact.

    I really don’t think Paul was saying that he was pleased by suffering, but rather that he feels EVERYONE’S emotions should approach bipolar so that they are really, REALLY happy and then really, REALLY sad.  Paul has fallen for a woo-woo fallacy – “everybody would be better off if they focused on their emotions and shared their feelings with all around them.”

     

    Personally, I can think of nothing more repulsive than living in a world full of self-centered Drama Queens (and Kings) who spent all their time telling me how they felt.  The problem with the ‘your feelings should be on the surface, extreme, and public’ is that is always assumes there’s an AUDIENCE who wants to listen.  Actually, I don’t want to hear all about how people feel.  Especially when they’re drunk, screaming or every other word is F***.

     

    I also find it really annoying to have someone telling me that my FEELINGS should be different as though there is only one set of ‘correct feelings’ – and the fact that a man is telling a woman HE knows what she should feel is the sexist topping.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Unbelievable, Sharron Angle is so offensive. As if being raped is heinous enough, she advocates forced birth. She is bat-s**t crazy.

  • crowepps

    And I have been in the situation of counseling young girls, not 13 but 15, who have had very at risk, difficult pregnancies. And my counsel was to look for some alternatives, which they did. And they found that they had made what was really a lemon situation into lemonade.

    What the heck is she doing ‘counseling young girls’ with “very at risk, difficult pregnancies” about their medical issues? Why didn’t she refer those girls to their own medical doctor or a professional counselor who really knew what they were doing?

  • otaku1960

    It’s pure distilled pop psychology because it doesn’t address the life of the rape survivor. “Err on the side of life” implies she’s just chopped liver, only secondary to the fetus.

  • davewise

    a message of passion and a message of logic for all your “pro-lifers” (antichoicers) out there…

     

    Passion:

    in a good and just society, NO ONE may infringe upon the rights of another, this means, women are NOT slaves to thier fetuses

     

    Logic:

    I am an OR nurse, with many side certifications, allow me to interject a bit of fact for you, a fetus, not a person, considered so because the brain has limited activity outside the limbic regions of the brain, meaning, even if it were outside the womb, it would be legally braindead.

     

    I hate it when people try to infringe upon others rights (women, MY patients, and yes I’ve seen the “pro-lifers” in all thier ugliness), all because they have some delusion that the “potential” for life is the same as properly functioning life! 

  • colleen

    Why didn’t she refer those girls to their own medical doctor or a professional counselor who really knew what they were doing?

    I keep waiting for admirers of James O’Keefe and Lila Rose’e ‘work’ to chime in with cries of: “15? That’s statutory rape! Fire her and close down the CPC! She didn’t call the police! and than I remembered that Angle is a bat-shit crazy tea party ‘pro-life’ republican running for the US senate so the same ‘standards’ don’t apply to her.

  • colleen

    Davewise…I hope you keep posting here. Thank you so much.

  • princess-rot

    It was inevitable, ahunt. Though I do wonder if MRAs would be happy to see our hypothetical girl’s rapist father could paper-abort his incest child (would he have to ‘paper-abort’ his daughter, too?). After all, his victim could have gotten an abortion because it’s legal and stuff and that’s not faaaair, amirite?

     

    Good grief.

     

    What level of heinous crime against a woman or girl would it take before we could have unmoderated threads where nobody butts in to talk about the men?

     

    As for Angle, she’s talked herself into a hypothetical corner. Now I’m just going to watch as she makes a fool of herself in front of the media. How’s cheerleading the patriarchy working out for you, Sharon?

  • quentin0352

    Interesting that the insults fly fast if someone asks boys have equal rights and treatment as girls. So it seems a mother who rapes her son is more acceptable than a father that rapes his daughter. Both are very rare but since we are brining up the extreme cases to make the points, she would STILL have the right to abort but under our present system, the son would STILL be required to pay child support.

     

    The very idea that men are trying to fight this and bring attention to these serious inequalities seems to upset so many here and I wonder why. Do you hate your brothers, sons, nephews and etc so much that you would feel more sorry for their molestor or rapists if they managed to “paper abort” the child than these males being forced in to poverty to support the child that resulted?

     

    It seems from the numeorus comments deriding, insulting and trying to deflect these EQUALITY issues that those people feel the site should only allow women who agree with unlimited abortions on demand and that only men can be responsible for a pregnancy. Even in a consentual relationship it seems men should have no say or rights and it is HIS responsiblity no matter how his sperm gets there. This though women have man more and more effective options at birth control, women can have an affair and in most states her husband has no choice in either the abortion or even paying support for the child and etc.

     

    So why are you so afraid or men having equal rights? Are you afraid that if men could “paper abort” that child support would dry up making it a money issue? Would men have a chance of fighting women then for paternity fraud and these women have to actually pay the money back instead of walking away? Maybe men would have equal rights to their own children then and women face having to work two jobs to live in poverty to pay support to custodial fathers instead of walking away like they can and do now? Is this the reason you are so afraid to have a reproductive rights blog have some who are for actual equal reproductive rights for all instead of just a pro-female rights only site?

  • crowepps

    The thing you’re not grasping here is that when complaining about ‘child sexual abuse’ you seem to feel that BEING PREGNANT is no big deal but having to PAY MONEY is the end of the world. Your post about MONEY would be more appropriately discussed on a blog about reforming divorce and custody and child support law. NONE of those issues have much of a connection to ‘reproductive rights’ which are biological. There is no ‘reproductive right’ to MONEY.

  • quentin0352

    No, you seem to think that pregnancy is the ONLY thing and that the emotional damage to boys who are molested is less as well as that the destruction of their lives and forced poverty to support their abusers is not a problem. What is really interesting is the logic fail in harm to the molested or raped emotionally. When males are victims, it is not a consideration but when women are it is. Now if females develope emotionally and mentally faster than males, then why is it suddenly a more serious crime for a 16 year old girl to be molested by a 30 year old male than in the reverse?

     

    You also continual to ignore the point of REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS where males have ZERO rights past conception but DO have RESPONSIBILITIES. So if you do not want men to have any rights, then why are you acceptiong of them having responsibilities? So far by only insulting, avoiding and attacking those who provide an alternative view and serious issues on reproductive equality, it shows you are interested in control and power being held strictly by women instead of actual equality like you have stated before.

  • quentin0352

    At least she can legally abort now though under laws he still has no choice and can spend the next couple of decades forced in to poverty or jail unless he pays his abuser. Also she can have the laws on her side though he will find the laws and system on the side of his abuser with no real chance at a life after since she will likely walk with no time in jail, child support and he will find there is little to no services to help him mentally or emotionally, much less legally.

  • paul-bradford

    Yes all human beings are valuable but that does not mean that therefore the more humans the better always.

     

    Salty,

     

    I couldn’t agree with you more!  We definitely have a responsibility to protect our planet from overpopulation and we definitely have a responsibility to protect our families from ‘overpopulation’ so we don’t overwhelm our parenting resources.  This is an area where men are at least as responsible as women since the only way to conceive an unwanted child is for a man to father her/him.  Men have to step up!  We men should all understand how wrong it is for us to impregnate a woman who’s not ready, willing and able to partner with us in the raising of a child.

     

    I particularly agree with the part where you say, “Yes, all human beings are valuable.”  As far as I’m concerned, we can’t understand our purpose in living until we acknowledge, recognize, appreciate and respect the humanity of other people.  In the final analysis, the best thing you and I can do for each other is to remind each other to respect our own lives and the lives of other people.

     

    And it does not mean that anyone is a human being before they’re born whether or not their would-be mothers want to birth them, that also leads to disaster and misery.

     

    You see, this is a very important statement. It really, really matters that we get this one right!  My life would be ever so much easier if there were no obligation for me to respect the humanity of the unborn.  I’m keenly aware of this fact.  Do you think I’m a masochist?  Do you think I like enduring all the accusations and ridicule I get at this ‘site?  Believe me, it’s not fun.  I do it because I’m better off, and you’d be better off, and the world would be better off if we all accepted the reality that we ARE human even before we’re born.  The people who are currently preparing to be born are no different than you or I once were.  Embracing their humanity enables us to more fully embrace our own humanity.

     

    A happy world is one where we help each other fulfil our dreams

     

     Amen!

     

    And you do take pleasure in suffering, when you told me here that I would do well to cry more.

     

    Salty, I take pleasure in the thought of us seeing our human connections more clearly than we do. When my child was aborted I was in full agreement with the decision. I no more thought I had an obligation to her/him than I had for the tip of my partner’s fingernail. My thinking was, “It’s her body. It’s her decision.” I took the stance that if that fetus had a relationship with anyone it was with my partner and if she chose to opt out of that relationship the fetus had no human relationship whatsoever.  I now see that that child had a relationship with me, and with her/his grandparents and uncles and aunts and, indeed, with everyone in the world.

     

    I do suffer when I consider my own culpability in the death of my child, but I’d rather be appreciating her/his life in memoriam than continue to be blind to the value of her/his life.  There’s so much joy in the realization of her/his worth that it more than makes up for the suffering.

  • beenthere72

    Do you have any facts/stats on the number of cases where sons have been forced to pay child support to the biological mothers that raped them?  

  • squirrely-girl

    … he could just move to one of the other 49 states that exist in this country.

     

    Men do this… far more often than you may be willing to admit. And before you get all freaked out about the horrors of having “no choice” but to move, maybe you should consider that it’s about the same price as an abortion and has no major ill effects on your body. Problem solved right? 

     

    I’m not at all sorry if you don’t like these options. When faced with an unplanned pregnancy and a POS sperm donor that doesn’t want to help, women can either abort, abuse her body for 9 months of pregnancy and adopt out, or carry to term and do the job of both parents by raising the child on her own. Super awesome choices there right?

     

    Grow up and graduate kindergarten already. What’s “fair” doesn’t always mean “the same.”

  • crowepps

    I’m sure there have been at least a few cases where underage boys and adult women have had sex and she has gotten pregnant.  This is the kind of story that Fox News is all over at once!

  • crowepps

    No, you seem to think that pregnancy is the ONLY thing and that the emotional damage to boys who are molested is less as well as that the destruction of their lives and forced poverty to support their abusers is not a problem.

    Except that isn’t what I said at all. I didn’t say it was okay for 16 year old boys to have sex with 30 year old women. Although, if you took a quick poll at the nearest high school, I’m sure you’d find a lot of 16 year old boys who thought the idea was GREAT! What I said was that this board is not the appropriate place to talk about child support.

    What is really interesting is the logic fail in harm to the molested or raped emotionally. When males are victims, it is not a consideration but when women are it is. Now if females develope emotionally and mentally faster than males, then why is it suddenly a more serious crime for a 16 year old girl to be molested by a 30 year old male than in the reverse?

    Personally, I don’t think it is. However, whether or not it is ‘molestation’ or ‘child sexual abuse’ or whatever term you want to use depends entirely on whether it is CONSENSUAL. If either the 16 year old boy or the 16 year old girl is coerced or unwilling, it is wrong. If either is willing, in my opinion, it’s a bad idea but it isn’t any of my business.

    You also continual to ignore the point of REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS where males have ZERO rights past conception but DO have RESPONSIBILITIES.

    Men have exactly the same rights and responsibilities as women past conception, including the right to have an abortion if they are pregnant.

    So far by only insulting, avoiding and attacking those who provide an alternative view and serious issues on reproductive equality, it shows you are interested in control and power being held strictly by women instead of actual equality like you have stated before.

    And another chorus of ‘evil feminists want control over men’, your favorite ‘everything is always the women’s fault’ conspiracy theory.

  • quentin0352

    Boys can abort after conception!?!? When and where did this happen? Oh, that is right, you are full of it claiming that Crow which is typical of your arguments I am seeing since you have continually argued for women all the way until birth and that men having any responsibilities or rights to reproduction are not valid since they are supposedly not relevant.

     

    As for the is being “consensual” for teen boys, they are less mature than girls at that age but I have never once seen a claim that a girl who is 16 and manipulated in to sex by a man in his 30s is not rape or molesting. Would you say your 16 year old daughter sleeping with her teacher is acceptable or would you be upset and suddenly screaming it was rape and molesting? Since no one claims boys are nearly as mentally, emotionally and physically developed as girls during their teen years, then wouldn’t it be more like he is 14 years old compared to a 16 year old girl?

     

    As for the attempts to detract and claim my sources, I have posted numerous ones already and not a one is Fox but hey, when you want to avoid things it is a quick way to dodge isn’t it? How about a few for you then and feel free to tell me how biased or etc they supposedly are if you dislike them but also remember that shows you are unable to show different unless you can bring a better source. Also remember that the likelihood of her becoming pregnant while raping or molesting a boy is about the same as if the genders are reversed. It is just that they are much less likely to believe males who are sexually assaulted and abused with the resources almost non-existent for them even when it is found true.

     

    http://www.canadiancrc.com/Female_Sex_Offenders-Female_Sexual_Predators_awareness.aspx

    Sexual abuse by women of children and teens is a subject most parents and caregivers are not familiar with. Female sexual predators go unreported because of a lack of awareness by the public.

    Female Sex Offenders- Sexual assault of children by females


    75% of sexual predators are male and 25% are female.

    86% of the victims of female sexual predators aren’t believed, so the crimes go unreported and don’t get prosecuted.

    Considering these facts, arrest statistics for child sexual offenders by gender are meaningless.

    From “The Sexual Abuse by Women of Children and Teenagers”

    UK TV programme – Panorama – BBC1 – 10 pm Monday, October 6th, 1997


    Female Perpetration of Child Sexual Abuse: An Overview of the Problem

    The American Humane Association which was responsible for gathering data from the yearly reports provided by the 50 U.S. states child protective agencies from 1973 through 1987 on child sexual abuse. They found that approximately 20 percent of substantiated cases of child sexual abuse during that time period had been perpetrated by females.  More ..


    We bring you this section of our website to increase your awareness of the problem. Hopefully, this increased awareness will protect more boys and girls from male and female sexual predators.

    Notice how in some of the articles the term “affair” or “relationship” or “slept with” is used if the perpetrator is female. When the perpetrator is male it is more likely called “sexual assault” or “rape”.


    According to David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, U.S.A. and stated in one of the largest newspapers in the U.S.A., the rise in recognition and prosecution of female sexual predators is due at least in part to the increased number of female police officers. Apparently, this results in prosecution of female sexual predators for their crimes without the police being labeled misogynistic.

     

    http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/ra.html

     

    That site is for mother on daughter sex abuse but also supports the 25% figure where women are the perpetrators so figure for about every 4 times a girl is abused and becomes pregnant with the option of aborting, a boy is abuse with no option unless is abuser aborts.

     

    http://www.childsupportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html

     

    A nice primer on the laws which shows men have no rights to abort or anything unlike Crow claims but even if raped or molested they are STILL responsible. So again, if we hold males responsible even when they are victims of sexual crimes by women, why is them having any choice less acceptable? Heck, do a search on “paternity fraud” and the laws where he doesn’t even have to have had sex with a woman to be held responsible and then say anyone fighting for men to have equal rights should just leave or shut-up and etc like I have been having happen here. Picture if it was you, your husband or your son who suddenly had to live in poverty to pay for a child conceived in rape, being molested or just because someone named them on a paper. Would you find these issues and those who try to fight them so upsetting and wrong? Would you happily see your own family members toiling to try and pay people who were the real criminals without them having any choices, recourse or options?

     

    Need a few articles on what rights males have?

    http://dir.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/10/19/mens_choice/index.html

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/189309.php

     

    And a few cases of where boys who were molested, elderly men sexually assaulted and even males who were drugged who pay support even when their abuser is convicted and now a registered sex offender.

     

    http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0303/mnd030311.htm

     

    Need more?

     

    http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberthirtysix.htm

     

    http://milawyersweekly.com/news/2004/03/01/statutory-rape-victim-owes-child-support/

  • quentin0352

    Nice attempt squirrely girl but I see again a lack of knowledge at the very least. Even moving has no change on the responsibilities since federal laws state an order from one for support must be honored by all others just like a protective order. Unless you are saying federal laws are suddenly void some how. If he can HIDE that is different but that requires only getting work under the table and he won’t be living well.

     

    Now, as for the choices for a woman, his choices are to umm, hmm. Well what choices does he really have since she can do those three you mentioned and his is to hide and be a criminal for life so no real legal choices. Of course if HE wants the child and is willing to do the job of both parents, that won’t happen.

     

    So again, not demanding the same but do think of EQUALITY not even just “fair” since even if she sexually assaulted him he has the exact same choices we went over. BTW, I also know many POS egg donors but you don’t hear about them since legally and our societal thinking is more that any children are strictly the property of the mother no matter what. 

  • crowepps

    Boys can abort after conception!?!? When and where did this happen?

    Gee, actually I can’t think of any boys who actually ever became pregnant to date.  But if they DID become pregnant, since the pregnancy would impact their bodily autonomy, yeah, they too would absolutely have the right to abort their OWN pregnancy in their OWN body.

     

    When 16 or 15 or even 12 year old boys are abused by adult women in authority over them, that is obviously wrong and in my personal opinion, behavior like that reveals things about the woman’s character that indicates to me that she shouldn’t have custody of any resulting child.  In my opinion, any teacher or school adminstrator or pastor who has sex with a minor child of either sex should go to jail.

     

    That does not, however have even the tiniest relationship to whether the resulting child needs to be supported, and it SURE doesn’t have anything to do with whether child support should be paid by the entire group of other men who are NOT minors and who fornicate around and then get all sulky and hostile because their girlfriends decide to have the baby or divorced men who don’t want to give ‘that woman’ any money even if it’s for their children.

     

    If you want to claim victimhood because ‘evil feminists’ have unmanned you, okay, go ahead.  Hypothetically you’re an official ‘victim’.  You might want to keep in mind though, that now you’re an unmanned victim helpless against the whims of feminists, and all pathetic and snively because the law no longer grants you superiority, there isn’t any reason in the world for anybody to want to change the law so men like you can feel back in charge.  Nobody wants ‘victims’ running things.

  • crowepps

    Just had to share this from Balloonjuice:

    This is Wingnut Argumentation 101- ignore the substance of the debate, let others make vile and false assertions, promote those lies, and then wait until you can act the victim.
    http://www.balloon-juice.com/

  • arekushieru

    And a woman would have the SAME problem, if she were to attempt to default on child support.  Probably more because she would most likely have a lower income.  See how that works, now?  You simply want to institute penalties that punish a woman for having an extra organ, while not even considering whether it would have been better for the majority of women who have had abortions that they HADN’T HAD THOSE UTERUSES.  NATURE caused the uterus to be present, so trying to say that it equalizes men and women, if men have the right to forgo their financial obligations to an actual CHILD while a woman is not able to do so, is merely forcing a penalty on a woman in another way, for an action that is ALREADY forcibly perpetrated on her, one that, when others obviously try to equalize the situation within rights and amount of force perpetrated on one, PLers attempt to deny without any firm ground to stand upon.  So, see, your movement’s misogyny clearly at work. 

  • quentin0352

    You are dodging still I see. Why is it you claim to believe it is wrong for these boys to be abused but you have failed to make a single complaintthey are forced to pay child support and even ENDORSED the idea in your last post? Is it acceptable to force an abused male to pay their abuser for 18+ years or face jail then? Also since I have not mentioned feminists at all we see yet again your attempts at a straw man argument.

     

    So what is it about males you hate so much? What are you for women being able to abort for any reason they want and their bodies being sovereign but males not having a choice at all after conception unlike your attempts to portray? Are you that anger with the male population that you hate even the abused enough to feel they should be abused even more? Are equal rights for men to not be held responsible for 18+ years in poverty if they do not wish that as for women who do not wish it that wrong?

     

    Maybe you can actually address the issues in a real and thoughtful manner instead of these attempts to divert and deflect for once. It would be nice instead of your continual claims that only women should have the ability to control their bodies since men being jailed unless they work in generally dangerous jobs is a lesser risk than if we did the same to pregnant women forcing them to risk their health to bear a child against their will. Both cases have about an equal risk to health and life with our present medical knowledge when you think honestly about it.

     

     

  • quentin0352

    Actually you are wrong. Women are MUCH less likely to even be ordered to pay support, when behind less likely to be even pursued and also less likely to have to pay nearly as much. You may want to read up on the studies on the matter. Hint, my neighbor owed over $50,000 in back support, they knew where she lived and they didn’t pursue her because she was a stay at home mom. They were all over me for support if I fell two months behind due to lost employment after a false charge was filed by my ex cost me my job.

     

    I also have a friend who’s ex just took off leaving him with the kids. He has had HIS pay taken, was repeatedly threatened by CSE for years, jailed twice and he had full custody. The court orders stated he was supposed to be getting support and after over 10 years he has never gotten a dime, any of the money they wrongfully took from him returned or anything. So far his ex who they know where she lives has served a single day in jail and BRAGGED laughing at him on the phone when she got out after that single day. There are also plenty of cases where custodial fathers were ordered to pay “child support” to non-custodial mothers even after the child is 18+, married and on their own. Now go figure how that works. But then again I was jailed for “denial of parenting time on Mother’s Day” when we both testified, the lawyers noted and the judge clairified she brought our son back 90 minutes late that day. On the other hand, he monthly, a broken rear passenger window on a sunny day, being tired and etc have all been acceptable reason for her to refuse me access. Heck, she hasn’t paid child support in months has never paid court ordered medical or other bills but I can’t get them to do anything since it is all a “civil issue” though it was a criminal issue when I was a whole two months behind.

     

    Here are some bits on the numbers to help you. It would also be nice to see if they tried doing a “deadbeat mom” round-up on Mother’s Day like they do to fathers every year on Father’s Day. But for some reason that is not seen as acceptable.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59963,00.html

     

    Try the section on child support on this link also.

     

    http://www.childrensjustice.org/stats.htm

     

     

  • crowepps

    You are dodging still I see.

    No, I’m not dodging — you aren’t capable of HEARING me. There is the possibility that no matter how clear I try to make my position, the reality of it is never going to be able to get through your obsession with claiming all men are victims.

    Why is it you claim to believe it is wrong for these boys to be abused but you have failed to make a single complaintthey are forced to pay child support and even ENDORSED the idea in your last post?

    The child exists. It is their child. Who is supposed to support it? The taxpayers?

    Is it acceptable to force an abused male to pay their abuser for 18+ years or face jail then?

    Well, my solution would be that in a case of child sexual abuse, “their abuser” would be in jail, and the support would be going to the child through whoever was raising the child, which might be the boy involved himself or his parents.

    So what is it about males you hate so much?

    Speaking of strawman arguments — I don’t hate males at all.  Is it your assumption that expecting men to meet their responsibilities for their children is the same as ‘hating’ them?  I guess I hate women too, then, because I also expect them to meet their responsibilities for their children.

    What are you for women being able to abort for any reason they want and their bodies being sovereign but males not having a choice at all after conception unlike your attempts to portray?

    As I said, all pregnant persons have a right to abortion because it is their choice whether their bodies continue to be pregnant. Men have the same right to abort that women do, but men don’t ever EXERCISE that right because to date no man has gotten pregnant.

    Are you that anger with the male population that you hate even the abused enough to feel they should be abused even more? Are equal rights for men to not be held responsible for 18+ years in poverty if they do not wish that as for women who do not wish it that wrong?

    Everyone who is the parent of a living minor child, whether male or female, is equally obligated to support that child. And, yes, I agree, children are the surest route to poverty. I highly recommend sterlization for everyone whose first consideration in all circumstances is money.

    Maybe you can actually address the issues in a real and thoughtful manner instead of these attempts to divert and deflect for once.

    Sigh, I am trying, but I keep bumping up against your preconceptions and having everything I say bounce right off.

    It would be nice instead of your continual claims that only women should have the ability to control their bodies since men being jailed unless they work in generally dangerous jobs is a lesser risk than if we did the same to pregnant women forcing them to risk their health to bear a child against their will. Both cases have about an equal risk to health and life with our present medical knowledge when you think honestly about it.

    Well, actually, no, they don’t. There certainly are some very risky occupations that contain a great deal of danger and which are well paid. They are not held exclusively by men, and they definitely are not filled only by men working in them because they need to pay child support. A lot of the men don’t have any children at all and a lot of the men are happily married. And of course, these men in these jobs have absolutely nothing to do with the majority of men who owe child support and work in ordinary jobs.

     

    The idea that physically going through a pregnancy is equivalent to, say, the ‘dangers’ of being a checker at the grocery store or a mail carrier or an accounting clerk or delivering pizzas is pretty ridiculous.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Quentin0352 has almost managed to highjack this discussion and turn it into a discussion about child support. While it may be a valid topic, it is not about the article at hand. Quentin0352 I recommend if you feel as passionate as you do about this issue start a reader diary (on this blog) about it.

    Here’s my last two cents on this issue. About 10 years ago I was walking to a friend’s house at night. A man walked up to me, grabbed me, and tried to drag me in an alley. This was a sexual attack because he grabbed my breasts and crotch. Luckily I was able to scream “NO” and managed to fight him off and get away from him. What if the worst had happened and he would have dragged me down the alley and raped me? And what if I would have become pregnant? This is where I say “f**k you” Sharon Angle. No woman who has been raped should have to be forced to bear a child against her will.

  • saltyc

    When my child was aborted I was in full agreement with the decision. I no more thought I had an obligation to her/him than I had for the tip of my partner’s fingernail. My thinking was, “It’s her body. It’s her decision.” I took the stance that if that fetus had a relationship with anyone it was with my partner and if she chose to opt out of that relationship the fetus had no human relationship whatsoever.  I now see that that child had a relationship with me, and with her/his grandparents and uncles and aunts and, indeed, with everyone in the world

    Well, I’m very sorry that you failed there but that has no bearing on me or on other women who are getting abortions.

    Because I did not think of my potential child as a fingernail.

    Whenever in doubt about my decision I go back to the many wise things I thought and that my close friends told me, and they were all out of consideration to my dreams and the potential child. I totally felt obligated to it, and that was part of my motivation to get an abortion. This is true for many women getting abortions. You don’t get this part because you don’t listen.

    So you have unresolved feelings on this and want more people to suffer because of it. I did not fail to consider the developing humanity of my potential child. Nope, sorry for you but I did not. But what YOU fail to consider, is MY humanity, MY plan for MY life, when you said to me, that I might be more human than I am now, maybe even as human as you, If I were to agree with you that what I did was wrong. I don’t,  because I also consider things you don’t, like my actual humanity, my actual life. If I have an apple I give it to my daughter first. If she doesn’t want it, then I eat it. Being a parent is actually a far bigger sacrifice than what I thought it would be, so if anything, being a mom makes me that much more confident that I did make the right choice when I aborted, before being a mom, with my previous estimate of what it would take.

    I can get behind some of what you say Paul, but I would prefer for it to be directed at people thinking about PIV sex. I even cringe when I hear people use sexual terms in vain, because that’s where we come from. People should think about the humanity of the sex act. But what you are doing is guilting people who are in a bad place and need to get out of it, or try to undermine people’s deeply moral decisions and undermine their actual humanity as in self-determination over some mythology that personhood starts at conception.  You should stop preaching and start listening.

    PS saying you feel joy in contemplating your “horrible crime against humanity” is well, sick.

  • squirrely-girl

    Thanks for the response. I appreciate what federal law says, but I am also VERY aware of how well it’s actually enforced. Many state CSAs, burdened by their own caseloads honestly just don’t have the time or resources to pursue the cases of other states. 

    If he can HIDE that is different but that requires only getting work under the table and he won’t be living well.

    So again, it’s back to his wallet? So no concern for whether the child was going to be “living well?” Just the man’s wallet again?

    Of course if HE wants the child and is willing to do the job of both parents, that won’t happen.

    Are you seriously saying that no man gets custody of a child? Really??? I don’t know you personally, nor do you I know any of the “friends” you discuss here, but please understand that the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data.’

     

    In your scenario of a POS “egg donor,” unless the woman literally DONATED an egg to ANOTHER woman and the left the scene, she did IN FACT gestate and deliver a child. Let me just make sure I’m being completely clear here – the woman carried the pregnancy to term and delivered a child. So no, she was not an “egg donor.” If what you mean to describe are “shitty or deadbeat” mothers then great, please do. I know more than a few myself. Being a shitty, negligent, or absentee parent is not gender specific. If you’ll reread my post though, I used the term “sperm donor” specifically in reference to men who help create a pregnancy and then leave… as in abdicating all responsibility and involvement with the PREGNANCY in addition to the later child. If a woman carries to term, then by logic and pure definition, no matter how shitty or absentee of a mother she is after the birth, she’s still not an “egg donor.” Outside of abortion, women don’t just get to “walk away” from a pregnancy. Men can. At any point. There are no biological consequences of this action. By virtue of biology, if a woman decides against abortion, she must carry to term. She must STAY PREGNANT AND DELIVER A CHILD. This is a nine month process that completely hijacks her body. Again, just to be clear, other than abortion, this can’t physically be avoided. And while I can always hope that you can “appreciate” this physical burden placed on the woman, I know you’ll never truly understand that burden. Honestly, even as a member of Team Vagina, until I became pregnant and had a child, I didn’t really understand the consequences and implications of pregnancy and childbirth. 

     

    Likewise, you’ve mentioned several times a hypothetical scenario involving a male minor sexually abused/raped by an older woman. I’ve not yet referred to that scenario but rather the more common scenarios of legally adult males engaged in consensual sex with another adult female then not wanting to support that child after birth… a scenario that is FAR MORE COMMON.

     

    However, in your specific scenario, I would not support the idea of this man (boy?) having to financially support a child (or having to hide) nor would I support that woman retaining custody of any child borne from that abuse. A rapist should not be the primary care provider, regardless of sex or gender. However, as outlined by crowepps elsewhere, this hypothetical (and dare I venture straw man) scenario represents only a tiny, minute fraction of child support scenarios that actually exist… and as a general rule, we just don’t write public policy based on the exceptions rather than the norm. However, we should certainly elucidate those exceptions or provide for them legally/judicially. But at the end of the day, it makes absolutely NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER to give ALL men who just don’t want to pay child support a free pass because (hypothetically) somewhere some woman had sex with some boy and also managed to get pregnant and decided to carry to term. Does that make sense? Again, just to be absolutely clear, under no circumstances do I believe a rape victim should be forced to suffer any further consequences of that sexual violation. 

     

    You keep accusing other posters of “avoiding” or not responding to the crux of your questions, but you seem to have sincere difficulty yourself in acknowledging that these other more common scenarios, THIS REALITY, does in fact exist. Are you looking for some kind of vindication for personal experiences? Are you looking to win the “logic” or straw man game? Are you looking to just harass your (perceived) source of pain and suffering? What are you looking for here?

  • crowepps

    a hypothetical scenario involving a male minor sexually abused/raped by an older woman

    Particularly when he’s talking about a ‘child’ of 16 or 17 who is enthusiastic about having sex with the older woman — the age differential may make that abusive but it cannot reasonably be described as ‘rape’.

  • squirrely-girl

    I’d be differing to legal definitions of rape in this case… as in, what’s the age of consent?

  • crowepps

    Ages of consent are different in different states, although at 16 sex is legal in about 80% of states for boys (some states have different ages for boys and girls), and only about 10 set it as high as 18 for boys.  Sometimes it depends on the relationship between the parties, whether the adult is a ‘person in authority’ over the teen such as a teacher or parent’s boy/girlfriend who has the right to tell them what to do.   Ages by consent by state are listed here:

    http://www.webistry.net/jan/consent.html

    There’s a pretty good article on the purpose of age of consent at Wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

  • quentin0352

    Squirrely girl, I have given you plenty of cases where boys are legally molested by the laws, men have been raped and also plenty of statistics showing that at least 1 in 4 sexual abuse cases is perpetrated by a woman. So claiming it is extremely rare but that we should consider girls who are raped by their fathers as an example is a joke since it is more likely a boy will be abused and forced then the specific scenario I have seen pointed to of father and daughter. Also claiming we can’t call women “egg donors” is disingenuous since it has been shown and repeatedly demonstrated that since a woman has full choice to abort a child that the father wants, then even if he is there for the whole pregnancy he still will frequently be called a “sperm donor” no matter what the facts if there is a break-up it should apply equally. Yes there are scum fathers that run off but they are the far minority and with the push to eliminate fathers even more by society and our legal system, then it is getting hard to blame many.

     

    As for the claims it is just about the wallet, financial issues are believed and allowed under law as an acceptable reason for a woman to abort and it is frequently pointed out that women on average earn less so shouldn’t have to pay support to the level of men. Those are equally wallet based arguments but not a single complaint when it is HER wallet being affected. Sorry but if she is a single mother by choice, calls the father a “sperm donor” after dumping him for a new guy she met while he was out busting his rear to support her, then she shouldn’t just be allowed to walk away with a part time job as the basis of her support and her income can be impugned like I see done frequently to men.

     

    Oh, and so you know I am a “sperm donor” and was a “deadbeat” as well as a “sexual abuser” of our daughter if you listened to the claims that were made that the courts happily allowed but the actual pictures of my children being abused, witnesses and videos of it and the stalking of me and my now wife as well as our daughter complaining repeatedly when questioned by police and CPS officials that it wasn’t me but her mother’s friends were not nearly as credible. After all, the local shelters that told me to just leave and the kids would be fine with their abusive mother all agreed that the mother had to be right and the children I rarely even was able to see were “brainwashed” by me somehow. So yes, please do tell me how things work compared to reality because the last I checked, it didn’t matter how good, dedicated and loving of a father you were, the children were the property of the mother to do with as she likes and the father’s only rights were to pay or be jailed. Unless you are willing to help change that, then why would you think men wouldn’t just give up and bail like you complain some do? After all, do they have a choice of any real kind like women do?

  • quentin0352

    Rebellious girl, you are correct about the right to abort in cases of rape and my point isn’t about support as much as that even when raped, males have NO choices except to pay support or go to jail. Much less any choices in even consentual sex where we suddenly hear them called “sperm donors” or etc from then on even if they wished they had an option to opt out like women have. This is why it is an equality issue.

     

    So what is continually missed, avoided and derided is that men have no real choice but to abstain and even that is not enough if you had read through some of the articles and case laws I have linked to. Even successful use of birth control on his part has been legally voided if she is able to gain his sperm from a trash can or any other method. This means women can force men to be fathers against their will but the very idea of anyone suggesting women be forced to be mothers against their will is wrong?

     

    I actually never argue for or against abortion but strictly for equal treatment for men and women under the laws and society on the topic. I have noticed that in forums like this the very idea we should allow men the same options and treatment tend to be laughed off, trivialized and etc. This is interesting since the same ones that do that frequently are ones who talk about abortion as an “equality” issue or how men should support abortion while deriding the idea or men having equality in reproductive choices and responsibilties.

     

    Try this, how can someone argue for women to be equal means access to abortion and that they believe in equality while at the same time they are willing to ignore, tivilialize and even insult the idea men have a right to “paper abort” or walk away like mothers have? Is it really equality and equal treatment they are wanting or a position of authority based on gender with abuses of others acceptable if they are not the preferred gender? After all, men have been willing to fight with and for women to gain equal rights so why would so many supporters of women’s rights be afraid to offer men these options in the name of equality?

  • arekushieru

    Hint, my neighbor owed over $50,000 in back support, they knew where she lived and they didn’t pursue her because she was a stay at home mom.>>

     

    Ah, gee, I think you just hit the button on the nose.  STAY AT HOME MOM.  Meaning she’s providing more for financial support alREADY, esPECially when compared to the income levels of the male supporter.  Hmmm….  Really should have re-read that through before posting.

  • arekushieru

    Except that I really wonder why a fetus is less valuable, in that case, when the male has committed a crime, than when neither, or the female, has committed a crime.

     

    At LEAST Sharron is consistent, I guess…?  >>… <<… 

  • arekushieru

    It doesn’t matter what a woman’s reason is, she can abort for whatever reason she wants.  But the reason she has that right is because it’s HER body, the one that she is able to make the decision over who uses it.  Here, you are trying to lay claim to the idea that the reason a specific woman deCIDES to abort is similar to the reason that the man (AND woman) actually incur financial obligations, in the first place:  The best interests of the CHILD.  These are NOT comparable, in ANY way.  To at least compare on a LOOSEly equitable platform, you would have to compare the best interests of the CHILD to the woman’s control over her own body, or compare the reasons a man might not want to provide financial support with the reasons why a specific woman decides to abort.  Although, that is LOOSEly equitable.  The right to bodily autonomy and financial obligations are nowhere close to being on the same scale, burdenwise.  And financial obligations for the man AND woman are the same.  The right to bodily autonomy can only be the same for both if no one attempts to equate the right with something else, which is, at the most basic level, based on whether an individual has the sexually reproductive uterine function (and, again, remember, they are naturally occurring, not chosen…?).  And that is just sexist, especially when it is done by creating a right for men that enables them to forgo financial obligations, something that no one even considers enabling for women, on that same scale (y’know, the one SG was talking about…?).

     

    Btw, you missed another of SG’s points.  She was comparing the non-sexually abusive cases which comprise the maJORity of cases to sexually abusive cases, NOT, as you claim, the number of female to male rape cases to the number of male to female rape cases.  And, also, if 1 in 4 are female to male rape cases then, yes, the male to female rape cases DO outnumber the former.  Sorry.

  • rebellious-grrl

    opps double post – damn technology

     

    Mods, please delete.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Great you’re pro-choice. Then you support sex education in schools, full inclusion of birth control and abortion options in all health insurance plans, support NARAL, Planned Parenthood, etc., and voice your opposition to fake women’s clinics, a.k.a. CPCs (crisis pregnancy centers.)
     
    One out of four women have been raped. Is there an equal statistic for men? For the most part men are the perpetrators of rape, male on female/male on male. I’ve known many women who have been violently raped. I can’t image being pregnant as a result. Post-rape, if they “dare” get an abortion, they get harassed at the clinic. How many times does this happen to a man? 
Women who seek an abortion are shamed and harassed by people like Sharron Angle. Period.
     
     
    I have no experience with child custody court cases. I have no offspring, by choice. Honestly I have no interest in having children and have never viewed a man as a “sperm donor.” It’s as degrading as Sharron Angle forcing me to have a child. I’m a bit taken aback that you are using this forum to voice your opinion. I don’t believe that you are honestly commenting on the article but using this as a forum to push your “paper abort” theory. Although, you might want to tell Sharron Angle what to do with her lemonade. I know I do.

  • quentin0352

    I love the 1 in 4 number though even the woman that did it has admitted it is wrong and WAAAY over claimed the real numbers. Now if you look back though, I gave numerous links with statistics on female sexual predators being about 25% of the total. So yes men are the majority but then again, women who go in to the police or claim to have been raped aren’t laughed at, told they are flat liars or just “lucky” to have been raped. Also if two equally intoxicated people mutually agree to have sex and then the next morning one changes their mond on it, well the man is stuck and told it is not a crime but a woman CAN then claim rape as she was intoxicated and unable to properly consent.

     

    So if you had read fully you would have noticed that my comments are that to be upset when women are victims of rape are told to make the best of it instead of aborting but to deride, insult and attack men who point out even when they are raped and molested they have no choice in being held responsible shows that the standard is not that of equality, doing what is right or anything else but of strict control over all reporductive rights with the ability to hold others also responsible no matter what.

     

    I dont’ know, maybe you can explain then why the idea that women who commit equal sex crimes are to be ignored and their victims forced to support their crimes is less offensive than if women were forced to carry a child in the case of rape. It is that female victims of sex crimes are more deserving of rights and sympathy than male victims or that female sexual predators are somehow not as bad as a male for the same crimes? Is the value of a child only important if they are wanted by the mother but disposable if she does not want that child while males should value a child no matter what their beliefs or not value a child strictly based on the wants and desires of the mother without any considerations of their own feelings?

  • quentin0352

    Yup, she stayed at home with her children from her second marriage. Now I know plenty of men who would like to be able to do that with their children from a second marriage but that just isn’t an acceptable reason to judges and CSE. So yes I did read it before posting, did you fully think through that difference when you posted or is a stay at home mother more important than a father who wants to do the same with his children somehow?

     

    Yeah, I know, that whole dang equality in treatment, options and the rest argument tends to get in the way it seems.

  • quentin0352

    So your argument boils down to her body so she can abort, then if she decides not to, then it is the “best interests of the child” and the male has no real choices or say since really it isn’t his body and even if he is raped or molested it is in the “best interests” to force him to pay support and the child to stay with the mother usually. The actual rights of an individual to have control over their body and freedom are dependent strictly on the decisions of other parties with the constitution and laws actually secondary to gender?

  • arekushieru

    Really, you think women aren’t told that they are flat out liars, aren’t laughed at or told they were ‘lucky’ to have been raped?  Seriously?  Several people who have studied rape culture would BEG to differ. 

  • arekushieru

    And a woman who is raped, has to experience pregnancy on top of that and might have to give up her child to her rapist (because, once she’s decided to bring the pregnancy to term, she will most likely have developed strong feelings for the resulting child and will, thus, most likely not relinquish unless forced to do so, considering that there ARE real life cases of this), SHOULD be forced to pay child support?  Is THAT what you’re saying?  Notice what I did there, now?  I focussed on an eQUITable topic, thereby, at the same time, basing my beliefs on something other than a woman’s sexually reproductive organs, although I did use something you didn’t mention, but that was simply because I felt like returning the favour.  After all, I didn’t talk about a male who was raped, nor did you mention the topic that I’d brought up earlier, somewhere on this forum, about these women who were placed in a similar situation.  But I reITerate, if a woman can be forced to pay child support in that same circumstance, then so should a man be able to be forced to pay.  If they aren’t, then neither should the man.

     

    So please stop your attempts to denigrate someone’s rights based on whether a similar thing can happen to the opposite sex because it not only contraDICTS itself, but shows your complete ignorance of the whole issue of women and/or pregnancy.  Most especially, stop applying such a double standard, where the standard for women is the same one that Sharron would apply to them.

  • arekushieru

    …would like to be able to able to do that with their children from a second marriage NOR have you provided links to such examples. 

     

    Nor have you addressed the other part of my statement (or are you deliberately ignoring it?) where I said the woman lacks the same level of income that the man does, in that situation. 

  • rebellious-grrl

    Are these better stats for you?

    1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
    17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.


    60% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years. Those rapists, of course, never spend a day in prison. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 6% of rapists ever serve a day in jail.

     

    Statistics from the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network (RAINN) a leading anti-sexual assault organization.

     

     

    My point is, women are victims of rape and sexual assault at much higher rates than men are. Rape and sexual assault are under reported to the police. I am an example of that. After being attacked I didn’t call the cops, because personally I don’t like dealing with the cops.  

     

     

    I’m busy right now and can’t respond to the rest of your post.

  • rebellious-grrl

     Great point Arekushieru!

  • paul-bradford

    Quentin,

     

    Thank you for your efforts in highlighting the reality of sexual abuse against boys and men.  It’s a valid and largely unreported issue but the reason we’re even discussing rape isn’t out of a concern for victims of crime.  We’re discussing rape because the debate around reproductive rights for women has always been distorted by people’s highly charged feelings regarding female culpability for unwanted pregnancy.  We’re so far from being authentically concerned for the well-being of the very young that even self-styled Pro-Lifers are focused on the issue of whether the agony endured by women who are carrying an unwanted pregnancy is ‘just punishment’ for their misdeeds.

     

    We only talk about rape because rape is regularly suggested as valid ‘justification’ for abortion.  “Bad” girls have sex willingly and are rightly punished with a baby.  “Good” girls only have sex when they’re raped and they don’t deserve to be punished.  As if a child conceived in rape was less human than a child conceived by a consensual union.  For many people, the abortion issue isn’t about getting justice for the unborn, it’s about getting ‘justice’ for wayward women.

  • rebellious-grrl

    We only talk about rape because rape is regularly suggested as valid ‘justification’ for abortion. “Bad” girls have sex willingly and are rightly punished with a baby.  “Good” girls only have sex when they’re raped and they don’t deserve to be punished. As if a child conceived in rape was less human than a child conceived by a consensual union.  For many people, the abortion issue isn’t about getting justice for the unborn, it’s about getting ‘justice’ for wayward women.

    All of us “wayward” women just love to fuck and run. We loved getting knocked up and having abortions. (yes loads of sarcasm.) You say, “We only talk about rape because rape is regularly suggested as valid ‘justification’ for abortion.” No “justification” is needed to have an abortion. If you want an abortion have one if not don’t. No one is making anyone have an abortion. Women/feminists talk about the everyday reality for many women living in a rape culture. Many girls know from an early age to look over your shoulder. Make sure you are not being followed. Carry your keys in your hand in case you need it as a weapon. Carry mace, carry a gun, carry a weapon of self protection. So no, we don’t talk about rape as just a valid reason to have an abortion. It’s a much larger issue than that. Paul, you speak of justice for the unborn but I see this as code for telling women how and what to do with their bodies.

     

    It’s interesting that there are so few comments on other posts on this blog like, “The Unseen Spill: The Human and Reproductive Health Catastrophe of Toxic “Hot Spots” in the Gulf Region.” This article discusses the industrial waste and contamination in the Gulf states having been recognized for their role in causing health problems. But since this issue is not  directly connected with reproductive freedom, abortion, or feminism it’s not commented on heavily. Pollution and environmental degradation DO have an effect on women who will or are pregnant, hence an effect on the fetus. If you want “justice” for fetuses then work for environmental issues too.

     

     

    Here’s a great blog post about the rape culture. http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

    Here’s a snippet from the blog:

    Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression. Rape culture is rape being used as a corrective to “cure” queer women. Rape culture is a militarized culture and “the natural product of all wars, everywhere, at all times, in all forms.” …………….Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is not even talking about the reality that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives. Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who’s around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who’s at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.

  • crowepps

    We’re discussing rape because the debate around reproductive rights for women has always been distorted by people’s highly charged feelings regarding female culpability for unwanted pregnancy.

    I would say that Quentin’s posts focus on his highly charged feelings regarding females and that in his view they are culpable for EVERYTHING.

     

    Quentin isn’t even willing to acknowledge men have a choice about participating in sex but instead insists sex happens because men are ‘raped’ and boys ‘molested’, totally ignoring the fact this happens only in a tiny minority of cases.

     

    Quentin’s persistent claim that he is always a victim, that everything is someone else’s fault, that anything that isn’t working in his life or his friends’ lives is all the fault of ‘evil women’, leaves no room for any concern about children.  It also doesn’t seem to offer much hope that Quentin will gain any insight into his own errors or stop making the same ones over and over again in the future.

  • julie-watkins

    We only talk about rape because rape is regularly suggested as valid ‘justification’ for abortion.  …  As if a child conceived in rape was less human than a child conceived by a consensual union.

    Paul likes to portray himself as if he is an ally, being as he is “for choice”. This quote shows his “for choice” is “for the right choice” … which is not common usage.

    FYI, “Pro Life Catholics for Choice” doesn’t have a web pressense, except for Paul’s comments here & there.

  • saltyc

    Oh goodness, that does ring a bell. You must have known someone like Quentin, as have I.

  • crowepps

    I have known men like Quentin, and I have known women who have the exact same behavior pattern and blame all their problems on men.  Sometimes they do indeed finally ‘get it’ and get the help to straighten out their own heads and their lives improve dramatically!

  • crowepps

    I think the saddest case was a very nice, hard-working and charming young man in his early 30’s who gave his deposition in the process of his TENTH DIVORCE and who explained very seriously that the reason was that all of his wives had the exact same faults.

  • colleen

    We only talk about rape because rape is regularly suggested as valid ‘justification’ for abortion.

    Because you sure as hell don’t speak for the women here. We talk about rape for a number of reasons and we certainly don’t have to justify abortion to the likes of you or Quentin.

  • colleen

    FYI, “Pro Life Catholics for Choice” doesn’t have a web pressense, except for Paul’s comments here & there.

    That’s because it has just one member

  • julie-watkins

    That’s been my suspicion.

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  • wendy-banks

    Welcome, Davewise!

  • wendy-banks

    Welcome, Davewise!