The A Word


Growing up I like to say my mother was pretty feminist minded as she was a single mother for a long time before I was welcomed into my family. As I got older she always encouraged me to be independent, make my own choices, and never let anyone make decision for me.
So when I got into high school, and started to become familiar with the topic of abortion, my mind was virtually already made up for me. A woman should be able to make her own reporductive choices.
Would I personally abort? Probably not, but the option being available to all women was something that I found important, especially in a day with so many “pro life” groups working against basic female human rights.

I became involved with the pro choice movement, volunteering with Planned Parenthood, standing on the corner with signs for burma shaves, and overall just being the radical my parents raised me to be. But the one thing I noticed in all my time working to ensure female reproductive rights remained a safe and legal option for all was the lack of politically correct talk about it.
There were very few and far between women that would step out and say “I had an abortion” and I look back, and even look at it today and wonder why it is still such a taboo topic over 40 years since this choice was made Nationally legal.

These thoughts re-surfaced this past week after the “Twitter Abortion” that had the typical pro life teeth showing and abomination talk flying. But what I noticed still was it is something that even the pro choice women do not wish to openly talk about. My mind is boggled.
Maybe it is just the type of pro choice advocates I am surrounded by today, which are typically those in the Birth Advocacy Community, or maybe it is still the stigma that talking about these experience is a “social no no” still.

Which I guess brings me to my message.
Women should not be ashamed of the choices that they make with their reproductive system.
Women are never ashamed to say “Oh I had a vaginal delivery” or “I had a Vaginal Birth after Cesarean” or even talk about their tubal or biopsy.

Stop being ashamed!
Stop avoiding the “a word” and get it out there!
Women should not be forced into a closet, or live under a shroud of shame for having an abortion!

SAY IT LADIES!

abortion….. Abortion….. ABORTION!

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  • violetlorien

    Thank you for joining the many people who have applauded #livetweetingabortion and Angie for speaking out about abortion in the best way we can — by talking about her real experience of having an abortion, without shame and without being moved or swayed by the many people who criticized, she’s shown women everywhere what RU486 medical abortion is all about, without any of the details withheld. Even more than that, she’s given us a rare example of a woman willing to talk about her decision to have an abortion without feeling like she has to be ashamed or guilty. Too often the only stories we hear are from the anti-choice, anti-abortion side, of women who chose abortion and regretted it later. I’m so glad that she chose to share this with us, even though death threats followed, and that she’s still talking and still writing and showing us that after abortion, life goes on. 

  • invalid-0

    This article baffles me.  Assuming that this author is a feminist, how can she cheer for abortion?  I have asked many leftist feminists who are undoubtably pro-choice this very question.  I consider myself pro-woman and pro-life!  Conceiving children and giving birth is the ONE thing women can physically do that men can’t.  I’m not saying that all women should go out and get pregnant, but women should embrace what we were made to do!  We were born with wombs for sustaining life!  To continue mankind!  To have something all to ourselves because I feel God wanted to set us apart from men in this way!  And if a woman feels she cannot be a good parent or provide for her child, someone else out there can and WANTS to.

    In my opinion, it’s a flawed argument to claim that because women celebrate “vaginal delivery” women who have abortions should celebrate as well.  Giving life and taking life are incomparable.  Nurturing a baby inside your womb, and terminating the process inside your womb are completely different.  Not only was this argument flawed, but so also was it selfish.  So many women who have abortions hurt physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually afterward.  They do not celebrate their abortion, they regret their abortion.  This article is not a PRO-WOMAN message. 

    Further, to me Angie “the Anti-thiest” is a very detached individual.  I watched her video and I have read her interviews.  She is not as informed as she thinks she is.  One week before her abortion she found out she was pregnant.  She had her abortion at 4 weeks and one day and called her baby no more than layers of cells and tumor-like.  When in fact a baby by the end of the first month has a head with a rudimentary brain and a primitive heart that has begun to pump.  And who made this possible?  Angie — her life nurturing life!  She is a woman born with everything equipped to sustain a child.  Unfortunately, the decision to swallow a chemical pill terminated the natural process. 

    I am not among the hate mongers.  They have their own issues.  I do not hate Angie; my heart goes out to Angie.  In my opinion, what a stronger person she would have been to herself had she chosen life.  Her goal was to show that abortion is no big deal.  The process is easy.  It didn’t seem easy at all.  All I saw was a scared woman who thought the baby wasn’t worth it.  That baby was worth it to someone — that baby would have been the answer to so many people. 

    But that’s not the Pro-Choice message is it?  So much of what pro-choicers purport says that women “can’t” or “shouldn’t”.  Just think how much would change for the better if Pro-Choicers told women “they can” because we are women! 

    For women and for life,
    Angel

    “It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish.”
    – Mother Teresa

  • crowepps

    Conceiving children and giving birth is the ONE thing women can physically do that men can’t.  I’m not saying that all women should go out and get pregnant, but women should embrace what we were made to do!  We were born with wombs for sustaining life!  To continue mankind!

    Don’t know if you are following the comments thread but we were actually discussing exactly this mindset in another context.  To make the parallel plain I’ll reword your argument:

     

    “Having sex and depositing sperm in a woman to conceive children is the ONE thing men can physically do that women cannot.  I’m not saying that all men should go out and have sex indiscriminately with many women, but men should embrace their right to do what they were made to do.  Men were born with testicles for creating life!  To continue mankind!  It’s okay to have sex with women who are unconscious because they should ‘embrace’ their childbearing destiny!”

  • frolicnaked

    Conceiving children and giving birth is the ONE thing women can physically do that men can’t.  I’m not saying that all women should go out and get pregnant, but women should embrace what we were made to do!  We were born with wombs for sustaining life!

    And yet for some of us, carrying a pregnancy to term would cause us serious physical and/or mental health consequences. Not being able to obtain a safe medical abortion would allow us only to sustain death — the death of our genetic offspring and ourselves.

     

    We celebrate that we’re given the opportunity to choose life for ourselves.

  • colleen

    but women should embrace what we were made to do!We were born with wombs for sustaining life! To continue mankind!

    I’m sorry but I don’t believe you or your church are in a position to tell all women what we were made to do. I strongly disagree with the notion that the worth and purpose of women is or should be confined to reproduction, and the tasks associated with reproduction.
    Many women don’t want to be like you and many women would not choose the life you would foist onto us.

    ——————————————
    The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

      Dr Warren Hern, MD
  • prochoicegoth

    First off, your religion doesn’t belong in this issue. Second, while some women do regret their choice, many do not, nor should they. They KNOW it’s the right choice and usually when a woman regrets it, it’s because your ilk harass them and break them down to that point. Shame on your side right there. Third, at 4 weeks LMP, 2 weeks post conception, the embryo looks like a shrimp. It’s essentially layers of flesh that will eventually become more in a few weeks. So no, she is not incorrect. And it’s your OPINION that she is weak because she chose to terminate. You know what they say about opinions…..

  • escoop

    Maybe women aren’t discussing their abortions because they have regret and were pressured to have one (as I was.)  Shame on the schools, employers and families that don’t support students who choose to parent.  Women should not have to choose between their education and a baby, their job and a baby, housing and a baby or their family and a baby.  Many of us didn’t have a real “choice.”  We need family housing on colleges, daycare at large employers and support from family.  Many women freely and willingly make the choice to have an abortion, but many are boxed into that decision and don’t really want it.  That’s not fair and that’s not real reproductive freedom.  We have a long way to go in this society to make sure women really can make their own choices about their bodies and reproductive health.

  • jayn

    Conceiving children and giving birth is the ONE thing women can physically do that men can’t

     

    Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should.  And it sure as hell doesn’t mean we want to.

  • prochoiceferret

    Maybe women aren’t discussing their abortions because they have regret and were pressured to have one (as I was.)

    Maybe that’s true for a handful of women. Personally, I think the death threats have more to do with it.

  • kate-ranieri

    Angelmother wrote:”Nurturing a baby inside your womb, and terminating the process inside your womb are completely different.  Not only was this argument flawed, but so also was it selfish.  So many women who have abortions hurt physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually afterward.  They do not celebrate their abortion, they regret their abortion.  This article is not a PRO-WOMAN message.”

    Three things to ponder

     

    1. Women who choose abortion are not selfish. I’ve heard this comment so many times it makes me twitch just considering how very little you know or care to know or both. Choosing abortion for the majority of women is the very best decision for them and for their families and the complexities of their lives. To call them selfish, as a form of judgement or, worse, to second guess their decision amounts to god-deluded hubris.
    2. Based on extensive and current research in recognized, scholarly journals, the regret theory is bogus for the majority of women. In fact, the varied authors point to a very telling reality that those women who have major regret and/or depression are likely the ones who had prior mental illnesses or who were in abusive relationships.
    3. Last, regardless of your worldview, this entire web site, RH Reality Check, is very pro woman. It’s just not prowoman in Angelmotherland. 

     


  • kate-ranieri

    Dear escoop, sorry you are so burdened by a forced abortion. However, regarding your idea about regret and shame, abortion is not the only taboo. Stand on the corner somewhere and talk about your menstrual cycle and you’re likely to be arrested. Openly breast feed and the voyeurs will feign indecency. Speak out about your vagina and folks will think you a nymphomaniac. You see, women’s bodies have for too long been the purview of Others–namely men (and women who subscribe to patriarchal misogyny). If we’re to change for the better, to fully own our own bodies, we need to freely talk about those things that matter. Just like you talked about regretting being pressured to abort, others should talk about the absolute relief they felt after their abortion, the soul-sapping guilt they have lived with for taking a friend to a back alley abortionist, the solidarity volunteers feel when they escort a women and her companion past the throngs of rotten protesters into an abortion clinic, or the absolute glee someone feels when they see a young woman move on with her life after hiding her abortion from her parents. There’s many stories to tell. And the stories should be told without shame, stigma, or fear. 

  • ack

    So much of what pro-choicers purport says that women “can’t” or “shouldn’t”.  Just think how much would change for the better if Pro-Choicers told women “they can” because we are women! >>>

     

    Actually, we’re all about “we can.” We can make our own choices regarding sexual activity, whether we’re in committed relationships or enjoying casual sex. We can take control of our reproductive systems by using contraception and planning if and when we have children. And we can terminate a pregancy if we don’t feel that being pregnant and giving birth are the right thing for us at the time.

    The “you can’t” comes mostly from the other side. You can’t have sex unless you’re ready to have a baby. You can’t have access to affordable contraception and education on how to use it. You can’t make the choice to abort. You can’t have the support of social services that would help you continue a wanted pregnancy and care for the child.

    Oh, and:

    Celebrating abortion and not feeling ashamed for having one are two separate things.

    Women’s power does not lie in their ability to birth children. The argument that women should “embrace what we were made to do” is straight out of the patriarchial, get back in the kitchen because you were BORN to GIVE BIRTH playbook. If a woman chooses that, I support it. But if it’s forced on her because she has a uterus, that’s the dehumanizing epitome of anti-woman sentiment.

     

  • invalid-0

    Wow!  I knew my comment would generate a lot of backlash.  And I never said what religion I was, but I’m glad it shined.  To “crowepps”, I thought of that argument…very good.  I suppose the only answer is to have responsible, protected sex or no sex at all.  If a woman becomes pregnant, then she should know her other options.  Based on the # of abortions performed every year, it’s proof that women are not hearing about these.

     

    I stand by my comments.  And I’m not here to put anyone down, but I can clearly see that you all have no problem making it known how you feel about me and my beliefs.  And to Dr. Kate Ranieri, I never wrote that a woman who chooses abortion is selfish.  Although I do believe that it can be.  I implied that the author’s argument was selfish.  I know two women who very close to me who chose abortion, and they still struggle with this decision.  They are hurting.  And they do not celebrate their abortion and they are very open about that.  And I hold no judgement.  I love these women.  And I don’t live in “angelmotherland”.  Working on bullying are you?  Heeheehee…I feel like I just got a scolding.  Angel is my name, and I have never lived up to it.

     

    And to “escoop” — I am so sorry that you experienced this in your life.  It isn’t fair.  But I know that you will be okay!  You’re right — this world has a long way to go.

     

    Blessings to EVERYONE who posted here.

    ~Angel

  • invalid-0

    Dear “escoop”,

     

    I am so sorry that you went through this.  It isn’t fair.  I can sense that you are carrying a heavy burden.  Please keep on keeping on — you’ll be okay!  And you’re right — NO ONE should tell you how to feel.  They are your own feelings.  They belong to you.

     

    Take care,

    Angel

  • invalid-0

    The baby may have looked like a shrimp, but that baby had a beating heart.  Angie said it was no more than two layers of cells.  She was incorrect.  But she didn’t recognize the baby as life in her womb and called it a tumor.  She already had her mind made up to abort the child.  I know it’s not sad to you, but it’s sad to me.  And at only 10 weeks gestation, you can hear the heart beat.  The baby has arms and legs with fingers and toes, too.

     

    I feel like I need to defend myself.  Not everyone who is pro-life acts out hatred toward a pro-choice individual.  There are those on both sides of the fence that need to wake up.  Don’t you agree?

     

     

     

  • princess-rot

    I suppose those who do not give birth because they were born intersex, because they are infertile, disabled, trans, queer, or are already childed and have also had abortions, or they simply don’t want children at all… don’t exist. Your glib, fuzzy-wuzzy rhetoric is transphobic, homophobic, and ableist and it’s not fooling anyone. We’ve heard it all before, that we should subliminate our bodily integrity and subjugate ourselves in service of fetuses because any other life path is, in actuality, a male-only pursuit and we should define ourselves by our reproductive capability or lack thereof. It’s insulting and patronising. Knock it off and get a clue. Please.

  • jayn

    If a woman becomes pregnant, then she should know her other options.  Based on the # of abortions performed every year, it’s proof that women are not hearing about these.

     

    No, it’s proff that women are deciding that abortion is the best choice for them.  Whether that’s because they lack knowledge of their other options (as you suggest), because they feel the other options aren’t as good for them, or because of societal influences causing them to feel pressured to abort, is another issue.

     

    Abortion is not a simple issue, and there’s a lot of surrounding issues that make any sort of black-and-white analysis difficult.  CHOICE is far from a simple issue, and there’s a lot of work to be done on multiple fronts to give many women truly free choices in their reproductive lives.

  • saltyc

    Yes, women who seek abortions have thought about all the options and are well aware. I spoke to one women who wanted an abortion, and she had just given a baby up for adoption. She knew very well what was involved and knew that, with two other children to take care of, she didn’t have the resources to do it. Very responsible person. In some cases, it’s the least terrible choice. But that doesn’t change the situation.

     

    I object to the author’s disclaimer at the beginning saying she would probably not have an abortion. First off, how do you know, second, what difference does it make? It’s like someone talking about gay rights starting off by saying “well let’s just be clear—I’m not gay! But now let’s say there’s no stigma”. Well if there’s no stigma, why make the point that you wouldn’t have an abortion? The fact that so many women who once said they’d never do it end up doing it means you just don’t know.

  • invalid-0

    You just put me in a box.  Not trying to patronize anyone here.  Just exercising my first amendment right as you all are. 

     

    And I never said that we should define ourselves by our reproductive capabilities.  Hell if I did that I’d forget that I’m more than just a mom.  The fact is, there is another way other than abortion.  I believe the intersex, the infertile, the disabled and homosexuals who CANNOT have children would love to adopt a child who is unwanted.  My aunt is one of them.

     

    Blessings! 

     

     

     

     

  • kate-ranieri

    Angel, no scolding. Just the facts. Sorry if you were offended by straight talk.

     

    So, what is your definition of pro woman? Further, if you believe your friends are hurting, why not recommend counseling? From your snipe about bullying, I’d guess you are an AWC antichoicer or are associated with them. Perhaps Rachel’s Vineyard is something you can offer. 

     

    Further, you seem to contradict yourself when you say you “never wrote that a woman who chooses abortion is selfish.  Although I do believe that it can be”

     

    Lastly, women are always counseled about their full array of options which include continuing the pregnancy to either parent or adopt or abortion. To think otherwise is to be misinformed. The argument you use about the number of abortions proving a lack of options is clearly fallacious and laughable. I’m sure, based on your comments, that abortion is very difficult for you to accept. The fact is that every day good women choose abortion for good reasons. 

  • prochoiceferret

    If a woman becomes pregnant, then she should know her other options. Based on the # of abortions performed every year, it’s proof that women are not hearing about these.

    Woman: Here I am, going to the abortion clinic to have an abortion.

     

    angelmother: Hey lady! Don’t have an abortion! Give up the child for adoption instead!

     

    Woman: Huh? What? You mean, I can have the baby, but then give it to someone else? So I don’t have to take care of it?

     

    angelmother: You most certainly can! There are lots of nice, God-fearing, morally sound Christian couples out there who want to adopt beautiful babies!

     

    Woman: Wait a second… what about that whole giving-birth thing? That doesn’t seem very pleasant.

     

    angelmother: It’s just a brief inconvenience. Getting abortion is an inconvenience too, you know. They stick a whatsit into your hoohah, and it feels weird.

     

    Woman: Yeah, good point! And here I thought the only way to avoid having to change diapers at 3am every night was to have an abortion! Thank you, angelmother! Now I can look forward to my belly growing huge and lots of hot pregnancy sex! That’s what I really wanted all along, because I’m a woman, and I just can’t feel fulfilled if I’m not engaging in uterus-related activity!

     

    angelmother: You’re welcome! Another abortion averted by a woman learning of all her options!

  • prochoiceferret

    The baby may have looked like a shrimp, but that baby had a beating heart.

    A crustacean looks like a shrimp (heck, a shrimp is a crustacean), and has a beating heart, too. In what sense, exactly, do you “love” shrimp? Enough to mutilate them into a pulp in your mouth?

    But she didn’t recognize the baby as life in her womb and called it a tumor.

    Tumors are alive too, you know. Do you deny this?

    I know it’s not sad to you, but it’s sad to me.

    Oh, I get it! You want to make illegal all the things that make you sad. Are Rob Schneider films your next target?

    And at only 10 weeks gestation, you can hear the heart beat. The baby has arms and legs with fingers and toes, too.

    And it can smile, give its mommy a thumbs-up, and mouth the words, “I love you.” That’s why pregnant women who don’t want to be pregnant need to be forced to remain pregnant against their will.

    I feel like I need to defend myself. Not everyone who is pro-life acts out hatred toward a pro-choice individual.

    Yes, but you don’t see too many of the pro-lifers who don’t want to force others to live by their narrow moral code around here.

    There are those on both sides of the fence that need to wake up. Don’t you agree?

    Yes. You should try it sometime.

  • crowepps

    If a woman becomes pregnant, then she should know her other options.  Based on the # of abortions performed every year, it’s proof that women are not hearing about these.

    There are two possibilities for why women aren’t choosing those other options: the first is that “women are not hearing about these” but the far more likely explanation is that the other options are worse than abortion.

  • kate-ranieri

    Here’s another passion play from the anti choicers:

     

    Angelmother: Look at your ultrasound. You have a beautiful baby.

     

    Woman: My ultrasound showed a bunch of gray and white lines with something that looked oddly enough like an alien. Doesn’t look a thing like me.

     

    Angelmother: Have faith, my child. Your baby loves you.

     

    Woman: How can my baby love me when it doesn’t even have a brain, isn’t even a sentient being? Sounds like a bunch of hockus pockus to me

     

    Angelmother: You’ll never regret choosing to have your child. With abortion, you’ll regret it forever. It will haunt you at night.

     

    Woman: Sounds like you regret your abortion.

     

    Angelmother: I do. Even some of my friends regret their abortions.

     

    Woman: Call Rachel’s Vineyard for post abortion counseling. I hear they have the cure for all those who regret their abortions. Problem is I hear that there are still those who attended and are still wallowing in regret.

     

    Angelmother: Yea, that sucks.

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    Here’s another passion play from the anti choicers:

    Portraying women and abortion as they are = Academy award-winning drama

    Portraying women and abortion as anti-choicers see them = Tim Burton-esque comedic farce

  • invalid-0

    Dr. Ranieri,

     

    Writing with all scenerity, I suppose I’m debating with the wrong people here based on how nearly everyone on this comment thread has lauged at me.  It’s okay!  We are intelligent women are we not?  We are free to think and say how we feel on these forums?  Some people have taken it too far with these silly “plays”.  You feel one way and are very outspoken on the issues.  I feel the opposite.  And no, I am not associated with “AWC antichoicer”.  I do not even know what this is an acronym for.

     

    You and I most likely disagree on every single political / social issue.  And you’re right — I cannot accept abortion.  And I have not met ONE woman who can justify her abortion with a good enough reason in my eyes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t inherently good women. And it is a selfish act in my opinion, but not all women who have abortions have selfish intentions.  I am thinking about that young lady who commented on this thread that was pressured to do it.  I regret that she experienced this against her will and desire. 

     

    I am leaving this debate.  I did not learn one constructive thing about why participants here feel abortion is pro-woman.  Everyone here has shown their true colors and how a pro-life woman like myself is not respected for her worldview.  That is definitely NOT pro-woman. 

     

    I am happy to tell anyone how I feel about the choice I made.  All three of my children were fearfully and wonderfully made.  In utero, I saw their beating hearts, their eyes, nose, the form of their mouths, extremities and even their hair.  It was a wonderful sight to behold.  And I stand by my comments.

     

    Always for life,

    Angel

     

     

     

     

  • prochoiceferret

    Some people have taken it too far with these silly “plays”.

    Yes, thinking that women have abortions only because they don’t know about the alternatives is indeed silly.

    You and I most likely disagree on every single political / social issue. And you’re right — I cannot accept abortion.

    Well then, that’s too bad. People aren’t going to stop having abortions just because you don’t accept them. Be a big girl and learn to live with it.

    And I have not met ONE woman who can justify her abortion with a good enough reason in my eyes, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t inherently good women.

    Well, duh. Whether they are good women or not has nothing to do with your opinion of them.

    And it is a selfish act in my opinion, but not all women who have abortions have selfish intentions. I am thinking about that young lady who commented on this thread that was pressured to do it. I regret that she experienced this against her will and desire.

    So all women who have abortions are either selfish, or coerced into it. How charitable of you.

    I am leaving this debate. I did not learn one constructive thing about why participants here feel abortion is pro-woman.

    If you consider being forced to remain pregnant against your will as pro-woman, then the problem isn’t that we did not teach you why abortion is pro-woman. The problem is that your ideas of what is good and what is bad for women border on the psychotic, and you need some serious counseling to get your head screwed back on straight.

    Everyone here has shown their true colors and how a pro-life woman like myself is not respected for her worldview. That is definitely NOT pro-woman.

    We’re showing you as much respect as you’ve shown to women who have abortions. (What, you want more? Didn’t your parents teach you that “Respect is a two-way street?”)

    I am happy to tell anyone how I feel about the choice I made. All three of my children were fearfully and wonderfully made. In utero, I saw their beating hearts, their eyes, nose, the form of their mouths, extremities and even their hair. It was a wonderful sight to behold.

    That’s great. Good for you. More power to ya. (No, really.)

     

    The point where you then go on to say that all women should make the same choices as you, is the point where you turn into Psycho-Anti-Choicer and where we dump on your bizarre and dystopian worldview. Seriously, it’s like me saying that everyone should go into accounting, and all other professions are an abomination and should be abolished—only much, much worse.

  • jayn

    I regret that she experienced this against her will and desire.

     

    So do we.  Being pressured into abortion is kind of anathema to the idea of ‘choice’.  Just as we don’t want women to be forced to remain pregnant against their will, neither do we want women to be forced to abort against their will.  Neither is ‘pro-woman’, because neither allows a woman to be treated as an autonomous individual capable to making her own choices.

     

    For me, pro-woman means empowering women to make their own choices, and determine the course of their own lives.  Allowing women to end a pregnancy if they so desire is one part of that.

  • kate-ranieri

    You’re leaving because you don’t like what you read? or how people respond to you? Because you disagree with me and others, you claim this web site is not pro woman. And then you lump all political and social issues into one big lot. I’m sorry but I’d have to disagree with your assessments beginning with the essentialist notions you have demonstrated. In other words, your contributions to this article suggest that you have a very simplistic view of right and wrong.

     

    I’m going to go out on a trusted limb to argue that most of the Pro Woman folks who contribute articles and who comment on the articles embrace a worldview that differs from you. Whereas you judge morality based on societal views and expectations and accept social norms concerning right and wrong, often using religion as your judgment of right and wrong, others recognize that different individuals will have different perspectives, and these people live by their own (abstract) principles about right and wrong. They view rules as useful but changeable (not absolute, not to be obeyed without question).  Put simply, not everything in life is black and white, good and evil. I’d venture a guess that your worldview is dogmatic, that there is an absolute for what is right and wrong. However, many would agree, I suspect, with Saul Alinsky that dogma is the enemy of human freedom. The implications of dogma and reproductive justice are multiplied when you consider the diversity of women, their socioeconomic status, their religion (or not), their families and their own health. Put simply, women choose abortion for good reasons that are NOT selfish. Women choose abortion for complex and often gut-wrenching reasons. And we support these women with compassion and respect. 

     


     

  • prochoiceferret

    Put simply, women choose abortion for good reasons that are NOT selfish. Women choose abortion for complex and often gut-wrenching reasons. And we support these women with compassion and respect.

    In other words, we are the karma that ran over your dogma.

  • princess-rot

    We know that. Some women will choose abortion, some will choose adoption, others will choose to surrogate or to parent. Your problem lies with the fact that abortion is available and that some will choose it, and you don’t like that they would. Sorry, but something like unwanted pregnancy and abortion, with the potential to affect half the population in some way at some time, cannot be legislated against based on the fact it may hurt your feelings. So what? Why is it any business of yours if another woman decides not to carry a pregnancy? She does not owe it to you or society, regardless of her relationship to it/you.

  • crowepps

    And I have not met ONE woman who can justify her abortion with a good enough reason in my eyes

    Why ever would any woman have to justify her abortion to YOU? Her personal medical history isn’t any of YOUR business and neither are her decisions.

    I did not learn one constructive thing about why participants here feel abortion is pro-woman.

    Then you must have skipped over the information that abortions are sometimes necessary to SAVE WOMEN’S LIVES.

  • erinlove

    Let me start off by saying that Yes I am a Christian woman, mother and wife.  I’m also a ProLifer and at times when I’m not busy doing my thing – an advocate.  In the sense that I help educate and inform females about the process of abortion, with a focus on late – term to make sure they have all the info they need to make a private and intelligent choice that will HELP THEM SLEEP AT NIGHT. NOT YOU.  But the one thing I am not is someone who will judge another because of something I don’t believe in.  personally I’d like to alleviate the world of abortion and all things abortion related such as sex before marriage, pedophilia, incest, babies born with disabilities and/orhandicaps yada yada… but the truth of the matter is you just CANNOT.  To do such a thing would deny women a right they have fought so hard for – for many years.  There are valid arguments on both sides of issue but unfortunately we live in a society where you’re either black or white, not grey.  Honestly if a mother’s life was hanging by a thread and birthing their child would kill them – they should have the right to terminate to save their own life.  What if they have living children already – who would care for them?  I erally hope we get to see a day where women are empowering each other rather than getting wrapped up in an argument that will never cease its’ existence – at least in our lifetime.  maybe if we stop judging others and sending them to hell before their time they might just open up and listen.  I’m no #1 fan of ProChoice either and I really think you guys need to lighten up too.  It’s awesome to be liberated enough to voice your own opinion but you could do it without calling The ProLife movement names.  That’s so high school.  And please don’t bring Christianity into it because not every Christian – or self proclaimed one – are fanatics nor are we the horrible judgemental creatures you portray us to be.  Personally I pray all of you find peace in this situation and that it doesn’t consume you to the point of no return.  All bullcrap aside – it’s the government that ultimately makes these decisions,not the people.  So if you want to argue on something – do it on that.

  • prochoiceferret

    personally I’d like to alleviate the world of abortion and all things abortion related such as sex before marriage, pedophilia, incest, babies born with disabilities and/orhandicaps yada yada…

    One of these does not belong.

    Honestly if a mother’s life was hanging by a thread and birthing their child would kill them – they should have the right to terminate to save their own life.

    How charitable of you. Can you tell that to the biggest Christian church of all

    ?

    It’s awesome to be liberated enough to voice your own opinion but you could do it without calling The ProLife movement names. That’s so high school.

    Yes, calling us “baby killers” and “murderers” is so immature.

    And please don’t bring Christianity into it because not every Christian – or self proclaimed one – are fanatics nor are we the horrible judgemental creatures you portray us to be.

    Sorry, we were just presuming that because you follow your Christian leaders—who often are fanatical and horribly judgmental—that means you agree with them. It’s not always true, of course. But why focus on us, and not those pseudo-Christians? Especially those who protest violently outside abortion clinics?

    Personally I pray all of you find peace in this situation and that it doesn’t consume you to the point of no return.

    You mean like it did Scott Roeder?

    All bullcrap aside – it’s the government that ultimately makes these decisions,not the people.

    Who elects the government?

  • crowepps

    And please don’t bring Christianity into it because not every Christian – or self proclaimed one – are fanatics nor are we the horrible judgemental creatures you portray us to be.

    Well, actually a lot of us who participate here and who “bring Christianity into it” happen to ALSO be Christians, the kind that are not fanatics and not horribly judgmental, and the REASON we “bring Christianity into it” is that we resent the fanatics and judgmental highjacking OUR religion and insisting that all ‘real’ Christians agree with them.

    it’s the government that ultimately makes these decisions,not the people

    This is a democratic republic, with government of the people, by the people, for the people. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.

  • prochoicegoth

    It’s illegal to force a woman to abort a pregnancy against her will. I’m sorry you were not aware of that, and I’m sorry you did not get the support you needed at that point in time. However, pro-choice IS NOT about that at all. We want women to be able to make the best choice and have the best support. If you want to blame a side for your pain, blame the pro-lifers. They’re the ones against welfare programs and other programs that help women keep their pregnancies(when they may not have the resources to do so)

  • prochoicegoth

    I help educate and inform females about the process of abortion, with a focus on late – term to make sure they have all the info they need to make a private and intelligent choice that will HELP THEM SLEEP AT NIGHT. NOT YOU.

    And by “educating”, do you mean you tell them ACTUAL facts about the procedures and fetal development that can be backed up with peer-reviewed studies and medical science? Or do you mean you tell them half-truths and whole lies like “abortion causes breast cancer” or “your baby feels pain at 7 weeks” or “They rip your baby limb from limb and then decapitate it”?

    I’m going to HOPE you tell them the real facts, and not the ones your camp makes up.

  • crowepps

    personally I’d like to alleviate the world of abortion and all things abortion related such as sex before marriage, pedophilia, incest, babies born with disabilities and/or handicaps

    What possible connection is there between pedophilia, sexual interest in children, who are by definition prepubesent, and abortion?

     

    Children can’t get pregnant and don’t need abortions.

  • frolicnaked

    personally I’d like to alleviate the world of abortion and all things abortion related such as sex before marriage, pedophilia, incest, babies born with disabilities and/or handicaps

    Neither incest nor disability is abortion-related.

     

    So. Um. Am I reading wrong, or is the only thing on that list that is actually abortion-related… abortion?

  • crowepps

    I think the point was, although I could be wrong, that he/she felt that getting rid of all the things that might CAUSE someone to get an abortion would get rid of abortion.

     

    Certainly most of us would agree that getting rid of pedophilia, incest, disabilities/handicaps would be just fine with us. Shoot, let’s go even further and ‘alleviate the world’ of rape and poverty as well. Starting there would undoubtedly be more productive than obsessing about how people who aren’t married have sex or why other women ‘immorally’ decide not to complete a pregnancy.

  • emma

    Hey crowepps, I owe you a major apology. I’ve been insulting Christians and Christianity all over the place on here, and it’s sort of never occurred to me that I might be offending people I wasn’t intending to offend.

     

    Just to explain: I use the term ‘Christian’ as shorthand for a certain type of Christian – you know, the anti-choice ultra-conservative fundie Pat Robertson follower types. I need to stop doing that, because there are lots of Christians out there, like you, who I respect a lot. I mean, I find the beliefs themselves kinda bizarre, to be honest, but that doesn’t really say anything about the people hold those beliefs (except, say, the people on Conservapaedia who are rewriting the Bible to get rid of the ‘socialist’ stuff. Their beliefs really are asshole-ish)

     

    Anyway – I’m really sorry for what I’ve said, particularly if I’ve offended you.

     

    (Also, I would have sent this privately, but I can’t seem to access the feature? Odd.)

  • crowepps

    I understand exactly what you meant. I’m sure you’ve seen me say some pretty harsh things about some Catholic Christians or Fundamentalist Conservatives.

     

    There is a looooooong stretch between the theory and the practitioners, in some cases so long a stretch that there’s no connection at all.

     

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

  • prochoiceferret

    Hey crowepps, I owe you a major apology. I’ve been insulting Christians and Christianity all over the place on here, and it’s sort of never occurred to me that I might be offending people I wasn’t intending to offend.

    Whenever you start feeling like it’s you against all Christians, just stop by here or here and soak in the anti-authoritarian conscientiousness!

  • prolifethats-right

    Ok soo If I read this correctly … You are proud to shout “Im a murderer Im a murderer Im a murderer…” thats what they should say b/c thats what they are! God created life so I think you people might want to stop trying to “play God” and get a reality check yourself! Life is a beautiful thing and its so precious… and you with your “womens rights” kill a living and breathing human being!?!?! why?? b/c you dont want the responsibility of a child or you are scared to have a child what is the reason for abortion??? yes I know people are raped and other things like that and my heart goes out to women who are in those situations but it doesnt mean you have to kill… its not a kill or be killed situation… Your mother gave birth to you didnt she… she gave you the right to life so why take it away from someone else!?! Oh and one more thing how dare you compare giving birth to taking birth away! “Women are never ashamed to say “Oh I had a vaginal delivery” or “I had a Vaginal Birth after Cesarean” or even talk about their tubal or biopsy.” (your own words…) yes they have the right to be happy and say “I GAVE LIFE… IM NOT A MURDERER!”
    Thank you I hope you all read this and understand why I am soo sick…
    God Bless You all
    and maybe change your hearts as well
    ~For Life!

  • prolifethats-right

    Ok soo If I read this correctly … You are proud to shout “Im a murderer Im a murderer Im a murderer…” thats what they should say b/c thats what they are! God created life so I think you people might want to stop trying to “play God” and get a reality check yourself! Life is a beautiful thing and its so precious… and you with your “womens rights” kill a living and breathing human being!?!?! why?? b/c you dont want the responsibility of a child or you are scared to have a child what is the reason for abortion??? yes I know people are raped and other things like that and my heart goes out to women who are in those situations but it doesnt mean you have to kill… its not a kill or be killed situation… Your mother gave birth to you didnt she… she gave you the right to life so why take it away from someone else!?! Oh and one more thing how dare you compare giving life to taking life away! “Women are never ashamed to say “Oh I had a vaginal delivery” or “I had a Vaginal Birth after Cesarean” or even talk about their tubal or biopsy.” (your own words…) yes they have the right to be happy and say “I GAVE LIFE… IM NOT A MURDERER!” Thank you I hope you all read this and understand why I am soo sick… God Bless You all and maybe change your hearts as well ~For Life!

  • prochoicegoth

    You are proud to shout “Im a murderer Im a murderer Im a murderer…” thats what they should say b/c thats what they are!

    Abortion isn’t murder and no one here is shouting anything of the sort. Are you hallucinating right now?

    God created life so I think you people might want to stop trying to “play God” and get a reality check yourself!

    Your god doesn’t belong in this issue. Not everyone believes in your god. Have some respect for the belief systems or lack there of, of other people.

    Life is a beautiful thing and its so precious… and you with your “womens rights” kill a living and breathing human being!?!?!

    Life isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. Especially when a woman is FORCED to be a walking incubator. Oh and feoti don’t breathe in utero. They would drown, being that they are submerged in LIQUID, and due to the fact that the lungs are pretty much the LAST thing to fully develop in a fetus. Did you not pay attention in biology class?

    why?? b/c you dont want the responsibility of a child or you are scared to have a child what is the reason for abortion???

    There are many reasons a woman has an abortion. And she doesn’t have to justify her reasons to ANYONE, especially control-freaks like you who don’t give a damn about her and her life.

    Your mother gave birth to you didnt she… she gave you the right to life so why take it away from someone else!?!

    My mother CHOSE to have me. She had a choice, so I’m in return allowing other women to have the right to choose whether or not to be mothers. I would rather be aborted, than be the product of a FORCED gestation.

     

     

    Oh yea, and your god’s the biggest abortionist of them all. So unless your god is a child who thinks he’s the only one who is allowed to perform abortions, I don’t think your god is against choice whatsoever. But like I said earlier, YOUR GOD DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS ISSUE.

  • i-agree-life-thats-right

    I agree with you PROLIFETHATSRIGHT. Okay first of all, God created EVERYONE and one day YOU WILL meet your maker and YOU WILL confess him as Lord and Savior. Christians are not perfect, no one is except the Lord. But abortion is murder. That is blood on your hands. That being said, no one should judge anyone for anything. We are just stating as Christians what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. Life is right, abortion is murder, therefore it is WRONG. Some things happen to people that are horrible, but you have to remember that child is also part of you… I don’t know how people can live with themselves after that. There are many issues with that situation among others but to be short about it, it is murder. We aren’t put here to be whores and whore around and do what we want and just kill unborn children. That is insane. You get upset and don’t want a kid but what are you doing?? Yea that makes sense. And for you that put something about ‘don’t put your god in this’ my GOD is the very same one that created you so you may want to check yourself. I will pray for you and anyone who is PRO CHOICE and PRO ABORTION. I am not condeming you, I am just stating what is right. How can your heart and soul not understand that? You can get it right, while you are still breathing. I pray for conviction on people who are so horribly lost in this world. It is very sad, but I pray for your souls. None of us should judge… the only judge is GOD and He will. So I won’t get on here saying you’re going to go here or there that is up to you. I just pray you get it right. God bless.

  • i-agree-life-thats-right

    and about *YOUR GOD DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS ISSUE* how dare anyone say something like that. How is it people hate God so much and are so hateful, if you don’t serve Him you are serving Satan. God IS EVERYWHERE AND knows everything. PROLIFETHATSRIGHT isn’t a control freak… I don’t think they are saying anything about trying to control someone, just speaking the truth. Talking about God isn’t disrespect, it is a Christian’s job, and being a Christian myself, I am going to stand up for Him as well. Please get it right before it’s too late. God loves everyone He wants you to come to Him… don’t be so proud. I cannot imagine hope without God… prayers for you. Keep in mind: He gives Eternal life, He can cleanse you of all your wrong doings and sins… only HE can. And He is more than willing.

  • prolifethats-right

    In Gensis Chapter 1 verse 26 : Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. Verse 27 : So God created man in his own image; in the image of God He created him; male and Female He created them. Verse 28: Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” See this is why God ( which his not only mine hes everyones God or atleast he should be) has everything to do with this subject b/c like I said he created life and right here in Gensis it tells us that. Im not here to argue or anything Im just here to get a point across. Not only did he create us all, he made us in his own image…how awesome is that!?!?! it blows my mind to even think about it. So this is my proof that God has everything to do with this, no matter what you or anyone else says or thinks you know  its the truth thats why it makes people so mad. But you will be in my prayers..all of you pro-choice and pro-abortion believers will be in my prayers. God doesnt hate anyone he loves us all, he loves you all. Most of all he loves giving life, eternal life if you ask him into your heart and be saved by him. John chapter 3 verse 16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Verse 17: For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. If you would like more just finish reading the rest of John chapter 3. Well this is all I have to say, I proved myself from Gods Holy Word so you can not deny that. His word is Truth!

    ~God Bless you all

  • leftcoaster

    .. except when it isn’t. I mean, we all know the record you funnymentalists have on falling from grace. Honestly, given that all the ginormous gay sex scandals have befallen fundies, you SERIOUSLY think we’re going to take your bible crap for anything more than a joke?

    We’ve tried to be polite about this in the past, but it’s time for more aggressive tactics. Stay the F__K out of my private medical decisions, or you will be very, very sorry.

     

  • prolifethats-right

    Unfortunately I know what you mean… Not all “christians” are the same…and we should be. There are those who fall from grace, those who call themselves christians a live a lie… I can go on but I will not… The only truth I know is Jesus Christ and Im not sorry for that and The BIBLE is the TRUTH… Im not sorry for that… I do now appreciate you calling the bible  “bible crap…and a joke” I will stand up for what I believe just as you do.. I will stand for the truth though and that is the difference between us… THankyou

    ~God Bless You all

  • leftcoaster

    I sense a distancing, as if you yourself aren’t a major-league sinner.

     

    It’s really irrelevant. The point is that no one is going to embrace religion as some sort of a basis for policy when you fundies can’t even behave. Criminy.

     

    And sorry, but to me, it’s “crap” and most definitely a joke. You’re free to embrace it; you are not free to bind my hands and shape my life based on your silly beliefs.

  • rebellious-grrl

    Oh yes, we must bow down to the sick and twisted views of the patriarchal religious right.

     

    This is what Amanda Marcotte was discussing in her article, “Banning Abortion: The First Step Toward Theocracy.” I am so tired of the Christian right, anti-choice zealots trying to impose their twisted Christian fundamentalist viewpoints on everyone. The anti-choice movement is not about saving babies, it’s about putting women “back in their place.” 

  • rebellious-grrl

    and about *YOUR GOD DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS ISSUE* how dare anyone say something like that…..

    I’m a pagan, and I don’t subscribe to your religion. The Goddess loves everyone and she trusts women to make their own choices when it comes to sex and reproduction. According to you “I’m serving Satan” because I’m not a Christian. The devil, satan, or whatever you call it, doesn’t exist. Once again this is a made up idea from the religious leaders to control the masses. To keep all you “good Christians inline with God.”

  • prochoicegoth

    Um, I don’t hate your god dear. How can I hate a deity I do not follow or know is even out there? Do I force you to follow the goddess and god? No I do not because UNLIKE YOU, I respect that you have a different belief system than I and leave it at that. Your god STILL does not belong in my uterus or the PRIVATE MEDICAL DECISIONS of other people unless they invite him into them.

    And I already have it right. I’m a spritualist with Paganistic views and that is how I will remain. I was one of you once and I was miserable and felt NO connection to your god. Why would I go back to that? Let me have my beliefs in peace. After all, I’m not shoving my beliefs down your throat, now am I?