Don’t Call It Murder


Don’t
call it murder. Call it an assassination. George Tiller
was the fourth doctor who performed abortions to be targeted, stalked,
and executed in the United States since 1993. If the Scott Roeder
in custody is the same Scott Roeder who posted on Operation Rescue’s
website the thinly veiled invitation to OR’s supporters to help him
scope out the floor plan of Tiller’s church, he may have had help
with everything but pulling the trigger.  He pulled that trigger
on the sixth anniversary of the capture of Eric Robert Rudolph, whose
bomb at the Birmingham clinic contained five pounds of dynamite and
hundreds of nails that killed a police officer and almost killed nurse
Emily Lyons.   

Whether
Roeder acted alone as a technical matter in pulling that trigger, he
had the complicity of a fanatical fringe.  While the Reverend Joseph
Scheidlers of this world appropriate the mantle of the Civil Rights
Movement to cloak tactics never countenanced by that movement, telling
us they act in "defense of the unborn," telling us they resist an
American Holocaust, their democratic constitutionalists’ robes are
nothing but the emperor’s new clothes.  When they were sued years
ago for violent blockades and blitzes at the clinics, they responded
in court papers that their assaults and harassment were merely "vigorous
protests," "sidewalk counseling," "rescues," or "sit-ins." 
Punishing them, they said, would set the precedent for chilling all
social protestors, from Martin Luther King to PETA.  They conveniently
forget that Dr. King’s goal was to secure peoples’ rights, not to
block them from exercising them.   

Their
public language, the language they use in court, is very different than
the language they use for the troops.  Among the troops, a women’s
clinic is a "death mill" or "abortuary."  The escorts who
help patients navigate the gauntlet of angry, abusive protestors to
get inside the clinic are "deathscorts."  When the public relations
antennae are down and the judicial ear is not listening, Joseph Scheidler
vows to stop abortion "by any means necessary" and proclaims "
a year of pain and fear" for anyone seeking or providing an abortion. 
He touts a "pro-life Mafia" for which he once emblazoned a motel
marquee "WELCOME PRO-LIFE ACTIVISTS-HAVE A BLAST" and passed out
nametags with firecrackers on them to pro-life conference attendees-just
after a spate of bombing plots and clinic attacks. 

Joseph
Scheidler is not atypical of the leadership that the militant wing of
the anti-choice movement has had for many years.  Randall Terry
of Operation Rescue once led a demonstration on a Colorado clinic’s
premises during which he prayed for the doctor to be "executed."
He repeated his prayerful threat over the radio three years later; two
days after that broadcast, the doctor who replaced the assassinated
Dr. Gunn of Pensacola was found murdered in Birmingham, with money in
his pocket.  As for Scheidler, his own appearance at the same Colorado
clinic was preceded by a brick through the window and a phone-jamming
campaign orchestrated by one of his friends. 

The
martial language is inescapable.  "We will win because we’re
on God’s side.  It’s a Holy War," Scheidler has said. 
Operation Rescue literature has trumpeted, "We are among the front-line
troops in the battle for life.  Together we will win!  We
have an army of people.  The battle is raging…The Commander
is calling most of us to the front lines." 

Eric
Rudolph, too, esteemed himself a holy warrior, a good man who will be
hailed as a hero by later generations.  He told the federal judge
who sentenced him:  "I will be vindicated – my actions that overcast
day in January 1998 will be vindicated.  As I go to a prison cell
for a lifetime I know that I have fought a good fight.  I have
finished my course.  I have kept the faith."  People like
Rudolph and Roeder take their marching orders from the Scheidlers and
Terrys of the world.  Dining on a diet of vitriol and jihad, these
criminals mistake projectiles for political tracts.   

There
are others behind them in the long ranks, the sort of people who think
that if they send a letter to the clinic explaining why everyone
there is going to hell along with the anthrax, it’s just an expression
of opinion.  It’s just dissent, and besides, the purity of their
principles gives them a moral exemption from the laws that bind the
rest of us.  They will be vindicated. 

Forget
blaming Bill O’Reilly for fanning the flames.  It is the rhetoric
of the militant wing of the anti-choice movement itself that is the
unindicted co-conspirator in Dr. Tiller’s assassination.  

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  • invalid-0

    Here’s the difference- most pro-lifers condemn both abortion and wanton murders like of Tiller as both heinous acts of murder.

    Your side on the other hand make all pro-lifers out to be extremists for the actions of the very few, while you support the murders of babies on a daily basis in abortion clinics, including those partially born.

    It is like the Nazis putting on trial folks for individual acts of murders in concentration camps, while murders are being done as mandated by the state on a daily basis.

    The hypocrisy is on your side there, not ours.

    And your appeal to King does not wash. King was for the civil rights of people but not at the expense of the rights of others. You, on the other hand, are for rights of women at the expense of the right to life of others, specifically the unborn. Last I check, rights to anything else are worthless without right to life.

    When we get to the point where folks like you support the right to even the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortions, where no fair-minded person would deny those are indeed the most brutal forms of murder for innocent children, then we have fallen as a nation.

    It takes a lot of militant mindset to condone this kind of stuff and mock those who fight against that.

    Guess what? The pro-life movement has in common with the abolitionists in fighting against the idea of making any person property of another, whether it is a baby or a person on basis of his or her skin. Your side has more in common with the slaveowners who believe they have right to property over another human being as well as right to privacy to do whatever what they want with their property, wihtout government intervention.

    And yes, even abolitionists have militants like John Brown.

    The only ones not militant to you in the abortion debate are those who do not oppose abortion as murder. The moment folks mention the obvious, that it is murder, it becomes militant to you.

    That is intellectually dishonest.

  • progo35

    Anon-that’s what I’m saying, too. It’s like blaming all Muslims and demanding that they stop being Muslims because of the 9/11 attacks, or blaming peace demonstrators for the recent murder of a solidor at a recruitment station.

    "Well behaved women seldom make history."-Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  • invalid-0

    a rousing chorus of “Every Sperm is Sacred”? After all, it’s a potential future human.

    What the anti-choice bunch is actually in favor of are the “rights” of fetuses and a return to the days of coat hanger abortions, thus ensuring women “pay for their sins” Sigh…

    • http://art-architech.blogspot.com/ invalid-0

      It is simple as an eternal payment for sins, think everything but to you never to guess everything, it simply it is not given, as speak “is not present in our scenario”.

  • invalid-0

    Tiller was murdered by a fanatic who found common cause with the leadership of the anti-choice movement. On a Post-It note on the seat next to him when he was captured was the cell phone number of Operation Rescue West’s Cheryl Sullinger. Sullinger herself was convicted of being the mastermind of a clinic bombing plot in California.

    Operation Rescue West’s Troy Newman used his “Truth Truck” to repeatedly blockade a peace march of mostly Mennonites in Newton, Kansas, weeks before Bush’s genocidal invasion of Iraq.

    ORW lost its tax-exempt status because it used its enormous donations from the gullible to campaign for the likes of Phill Kline. It paid its staff in “gifts” so it and they supposedly weren’t required to pay taxes. It bought properties so they could live in luxury without paying rent.

    One of its tactics is to accuse those victims whom it attacks of assault themselves. It provokes police intervention and then files endless suits soliciting nuisance settlements paid for by taxpayers.

    Don’t let these hypocrites distance themselves from their shooters, their bombers, their “anthrax” mailers, their assailants of women patients and their clinic escorts. They are not an abberation. They are and will continue to be the leadership.

  • invalid-0

    At the vigil for Dr. Tiller in Wichita, the Phelps clan were protesting with their “God Hates Fags” placards and hymns commonly reserved for desecrating the funerals of deceased soldiers. Joining them celebrating Tiller’s assassination was Mark Holick, the defrocked fundamentalist minister who spends his time ranting about Obama and gays, when he’s not urging mahem through his billboards and speeches and fascist sermons.

  • invalid-0

    What advice would these anti-abortion people give the parents of an 9 year old girl who hid her pregnancy until it “showed” in the 6th month. Would they force this little girl to have this life-threatening full term birth??

  • invalid-0

    I very much disagree with the fact that you are saying that “your side…make all prolifers out to be…” etc. Hi, aren’t you just doing the exact same thing that you’re saying we who are prochoice are doing by lumping all prochoicers into the same categories and belief systems?

    YOUR assessment of the situation is what does not wash. When I am pregnant, that fetus cannot exist without me. If I die, the fetus dies. I stop eating, the fetus starves to death. I drink, the fetus gets fetal alcohol poisoning. The fetus cannot be separated from the woman who is pregnant with it. You are talking about slavery, in which one independently living, breathing, and thriving person exerted control over another independently living, breathing, and thriving human being. There is a HUGE difference there.

  • amanda-marcotte

    Most "condemnations" are basically reminders that murder is illegal, followed up by explanations of how the victim is burning in hell.  Tacking a disingenuous condemnation before returning to demonizing good people who help women isn’t a real condemnation.  It’s ass-covering, and sadly it works. 

  • amanda-marcotte

    Is like blaming all Christians.  No one is blaming all Christians for this.

     

    The analogy you’re looking for is blaming militant Muslim groups such as the Taliban when terrorism occurs.

  • invalid-0

    anti-abortion people who support this type of killing are to e blamed

  • invalid-0

    The answer to your question about whether anti-abortion activists want a 9-year-old to carry a pregnancy to term is of course “YES!” The development of that fetus is way more important to them than the life of a still-developing young girl who was raped. For some reason to them potential persons in the womb are more valuable than actual persons who are pregnant. If you asked them, they would tell you that the 9-year-old clearly did something to “deserve” the punishment of pregnancy and it’s God’s will that she suffer until she gives birth to a baby she never wanted. They don’t care what 9 months of pregnancy will do to her still-developing body or her psyche. The life of that fetus is more valuable than the life of that little girl.

  • invalid-0

    Yes, let’s talk about intellectual dishonesty. The glaringly misguided and offensive comparison between the anti-choice movement and the abolitionist movement is the epitome of dishonesty. Dishonest because the foundations of abolitionism (the right to self-ownership, to move freely and be in control of one’s future, to expect to live with some level of dignity and respect) are in fierce opposition to the anti-choice position. Yes, abolitionists would oppose making one person the property of another. And yet the anti-choice movement is based on the idea that women’s bodies are not our own, that we do not deserve the dignity and respect of being allowed to decide our own futures. The irony, of course, is that the “pro-life” movement is a direct affront to human life, a war against women’s lives and the people who dedicate themselves to preserving those lives. For anti-choicers to mask their hate in the language of social justice is an outrage. They would take the lives of compassionate doctors and call it justice. They would harass women as they walk quietly through the clinic doors and say it is morality. They would fan the flames of terrorist action and cry innocence. So yes, let’s talk about dishonesty. Anti-choicers can continue to call us Nazis as they slather propaganda across America’s billboards and aim their guns at our clinic doors. We will continue to talk about social justice as we provide compassionate care and fight for women’s legitimate participation in an equal society. We will use our voices and our intellect, rather than guns and ugly rhetoric meant to prey on the weak — that is what Dr. King and Dr. Tiller would have wanted.

  • http://www.cdwow.com/DVD/Battlestar-Galactica-The-Final-Season-4-Discs/product/view/8565757 invalid-0

    I completly agree! O’Rilley, as any other person in this country, should be responisble for his words, and his words obviously do kill!

  • http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2 invalid-0
  • invalid-0

    I saw how quickly anti-choice commentators leaped on the sad case in Arkansas to deflect attention from themselves. Two days after Dr. Tiller’s murder, they were saying: “Unless you blame the anti-war movement for the murder of this Army recruiter, you cannot blame us peaceable pro-life folks for the actions of unhinged lone wackos who bomb clinics and shoot doctors.” So let’s compare. Crowds of protestors blocking every Army recruitment center, telling would-be soldiers that they are killers? Newly signed-up soldiers targeted for harassing phone calls because they signed up? Recruitment centers all over the country required to hire security because of all of the acts of vandalism. Recruitment centers in most counties closed because of the acts of vandalism and fears for safety? Recruiters wearing bullet-proof vests so they wouldn’t be shot? Leaders of anti-war groups referring to Army recruiters by name and calling them monsters and killers who were responsible for the deaths of thousands? Threatening “white powder” letters sent to recruitment offices? Recruitment offices bombed? Multiple Army recruiters killed in the past decade? In fact, consider that none of this happened even though millions of people passionately opposed the war in Iraq. All the anti-choice forces have left is an implausible deniability.

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    New details are now coming out that Tiller’s killer was not only a loner not connected to any pro-life groups, but that he was also mentally insane. He had mental problems.

    Now, not for nothing, but maybe we should cut the guy some slack and not be so judgemental here. After all, many people get depressed. Look at that woman in Texas who drowned her 5 kids in the bathtub. Remember her?

    Remember how so many feminists were defending her actions because she had post pardum depression or something like that?

    Well come on now. In the spirit of equality amongst the 2 genders, let’s give Tiller’s killer the same compassion and sympathy. After all, who are we to judge what a person does when they are suffering from depression?

  • http://aikenareaprogressive.blogspot.com invalid-0

    The anti-choice extremists are using what happened at the Army recruiting center to deflect attention off themselves. Case in point, a poster on the Augusta Chronicle forums named carcraft, who posted this nonsense on Tuesday morning:

    Did any one notice that a member of the religion of peace shot up an Army recruiting center and killed a young man out of boot camp? Obama has not been nearly as saddened as by the death of Tiller. The young man killed only voluntered to defend America, Tiller was killing babies…

    These anti-choice leeches will do anything to deflect attention away from their terroristic actions.

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    Everything you said was true about recruitment centers. How about those sicko peacenicks with the signs that read “A good soldier is a dead soldier”? How would you like it if we painted all the anti-war people with the same brush as we would paint them with?

    Yes, YOU anti-war people called OUR President a terrorist. You called our troops terrorists. You called them out by name (remember General “Betray us”?).

    The last time an abortionist was shot dead was in 1998. 11 years ago. MORE than a decade ago. I don’t know where you get your info from.

    According to the latest zogby poll, more than half of Americans consider themselves pro-life and more than 7 out of 10 are against late term abortion!

    CAN you imagine if we were all ‘extemists’? This nation would be a very dangerous place!

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    killing an unborn infant just days away from the due date just because the mother was having “emtional stress” is one of the sickest, cruelest, hideous, most selfish acts of terrorism I know of.

  • colleen

    It’s like blaming all Muslims and demanding that they stop being
    Muslims because of the 9/11 attacks, or blaming peace demonstrators for
    the recent murder of a solidor at a recruitment station.

    Fortunately for Christianity, the anti-abortion movement does not constitute the whole of Christendom. Just as your right wing opinions don’t speak for all disabled people.

    Likewise the violence and criminal activities of the anti-abortion movement are well documented, ongoing and number in the thousands.Your movement is based on lies and manipulation and fueled by hatred and false piety.  

     

     

     

     

    The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

    Dr Warren Hern, MD

  • colleen

    I don’t know where you get your info from.

     

     Here is a good place to start for information about clinic violence

    and 

    here is what late term abortions are about. 

    Those who mislead others into believing that women can and do have late term abortions for frivolous reasons should rot in hell.

     

     

    The only difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.

    Dr Warren Hern, MD

  • invalid-0

    But Tiller refused to report the crimes against his underage patients to the police. I never understood this. Why not report child rape?

  • therealistmom

    One, I would love to see these cites about this guy’s mental health and not having any connections to radical anti-choice groups, especially with the one woman’s phone number in his car. Either way it does NOT excuse either his behavior and perhaps implicates the radical anti-choicers even MORE because their irresponsible rhetoric about Dr. Tiller affected someone with mental issues. There is no doubt that the suspect visited Operation Rescue sites and posted there, and therefore read the crap they spew.

    Two, equating clinical depression with post-partum psychosis shows incredible ignorance about both conditions. What, do you think women get a “free pass” for bad behavior because they happen to be the only ones who can GET post-partum psychosis? Post-partum depression is very serious; post-partum PSYCHOSIS like what Andrea Yates experienced is literally insanity, like any other psychotic state. Clinical depression does not equate psychosis. I have Major Depressive Disorder… and it doesn’t affect my ability to know right from wrong which is the definition of insanity used by the courts.

  • therealistmom

    … it would be illegal. No doctor would perform that procedure.

    However, a woman who was suffering from a psychotic break or suicidal ideation might need a late term abortion. The exceptions to allow this are for the life AND HEALTH of the mother and mental health is JUST as much health as toxemia or cancer. However, that doesn’t mean a woman can go into a doctor at 38 weeks and say, “I’m really bummed. Can I have an abortion?”. Nor WOULD THEY. People who think that occurs apparently see women as horrible beings instead of real people.

  • invalid-0

    Women can tell their horror stories about their third trimester abortions and how their wanted fetus died inside them, had severe unlivable malformations, parts of their brains missing, children raped by their fathers at 9 who needed an abortion because they would not survive birth, until they are blue in the face, and the anti-choice crowd does not care, does not hear, only believes what they think is right and that somehow, these poor suffering souls somehow did something to get God pissed to be “Punished” by God in such a way, and deserve whatever consequnces that God is trying to dish out, and that relieving the horrible sad burden of ending a wanted pregnancy that would never make it to birth or past it- is thwarting God’s will. They do not care about women, whether they die from coathangers, back alley abortions, or a pregnancy that keeps them from getting cancer treatment, or septacemia (blood poisoning when a fetus dies inside of you, and starts to rot- my great grandmother almost died when her twin fetuses died inside her of her in her 8th month- and she had NO CHOICE or Dr. Tiller back then, no choice but to continue the pregnancy. She barely survived and was not quite right mentally for the rest of her life because of it.) These people hate women, women are chattel for men’s needs, and if they don’t like it, God will punish them. It has little or nothing to do with the fetus, it is women’s very autonomy, women’s sexual freedom, women’s very freedom to live their lives and make choices, that fills them with such rage. You will notice that very, very few anti-choicers will take responsibility for their hate speech, that instigated the nut that killed Dr. Tiller. If they did, it would be admitting that women deserve respect for the decisions that they make about their bodies, and their pregnancies. It would be admitting that women are (gasp!) people. Somehow, in all of their talk of God there is something missing- real empathy and compassion for what a woman faces when a pregnacy goes terribly wrong. They would rather be right. Women to them are dispensible, but their fetuses are not. Because “God” said so. This is typically true for most Catholic anti-choicers, but some other denominations are just as guilty. These people ARE the American Taliban, they are American terrorists. The links to Operation Rescue that this nut was tied to, are coming out more and more.

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    * More than 1/2 of Americans consider themselves pro-life. Can you imagine the chaos and disorder if we were all extremists like this guy who killed Tiller? Oh my my.

    * The anti-war crowd is a lot more radical and a lot more dangerous than the pro-life crowd is. (by the way it’s pro-life, not anti-choice. Pro-life – as opposed to pro-abortion) – so calm down. This is not a “string of violence” here. The last time an abortionist was killed was 11 years ago.

    I was being sarcastic. Of course I don’t think this monster should get off. He committed murder and he should be tried accordingly.

    However, Yates should have also been sentenced to life without parole. How can ANYONE make excuses for a woman who kills her 5 children like that?

    And what else just happened… another woman tosses her child from a bridge last week.

    Tell me something. Why is it women seem to kill their children? I mean, men do it, too. But when a child is murdered by their own parent, it is usually the mother. Men commit murder,too, but it’s usually not their own kids. Mothers who kill their children. Why is it?

    I think it is all part of this pro-abortion crowd making people assume it’s OK to kill the unborn child – so why not kill the child after it’s born, too?

    Sounds crazy? No crazier then people like you blaming Bill O’Reilly for Tiller’s killing.

  • invalid-0

    I was shocked and horrified to read of the death of Dr Tiller. Can’t something be done to close down groups such as Operation “Rescue” if they persist in spewing hate-filled rhetoric? It seems to me that freedom of speech is allowed to go too far sometimes. Here in New Zealand Operation “Rescue” never really got going because the police refused to tolerate them and would have been even less likely to if they had been actively threatening people’s lives.

    I would also like to ask BillyKess for facts to back up his allegations, not just more allegations from antilife “literature”.

  • emma

    BillyKess, why do you keep lying? Is it some sort of pathology? All over the internet at the moment, there are accounts of women who needed – yes, needed – late term abortions because of severe foetal abnormalities and/or because their lives were in danger. Why don’t you go and read them, and then explain to me why these women were wrong in deciding to terminate. Do not come back and lie about women getting bored one day in the eighth month of pregnancy and terminating for fun, or women terminating because they were having a bad day. You are showing your abject ignorance and loathing for all women.

     

    Post partum psychosis is a legitimate medical/psychiatric diagnosis. It is a diagnosis that is exclusive to women, because women are the only ones who give birth. If you bothered to look it up, which I’m sure you won’t, you would know that, when psychotic, one is not in touch with reality and cannot tell right from wrong. If you have any evidence that George Tiller’s murderer was psychotic, please do share with us.

     

    What is it with anti-choicers and lying??!! It’s almost like they know their arguments cannot stand on their own merits, so they need to make stuff up in a really pathetic and unsuccessful attempt to sound credible. Unfortunately for them, their ignorance, stupidity and hatred for all women is painfully evident in the stupid stories they make up.

    • invalid-0

      If a woman has postpartum psychosis, and is truly psychotic, do we want that woman making decisions about the life of her child, born or unborn? “When psychotic, one is not in touch with reality and cannot tell right from wrong.” So how can we assume her decision to abort(kill) her baby was the right choice?

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    Emma, there is no excuse for murder. Period. OK? Stop making excuses. You pro-abortion women scare me. What the hell is so empowering and liberating about taking the life of an innocent unborn child who can’t even fight back?

    That is the bottom line here. And that is no lie.

    The only lies I see here are that the pro-life crowd are violent extemists. You take one nut, and you use him to paint all of us with the same brush.

    You really think the average American Joe and Jane is buying this? They’re not. Matter of fact, more than half of Americans now consider themselves pro-life. So welcome to the minority, miss. You’re now in it.

    And that’s no lie. That’s coming from a zogby poll. A reliable source just like USA/gallop.

  • invalid-0

    at the deaths that the Unabomber was driven to and the damage ELF and ALF caused by the hate-filled, crazy rhetoric that the enviromental-patient groups spew!!!

    I demand the following groups get shut down as well:

    • the EPA
    • Greenpeace
    • Sierra Club
    • Boomerang (cable channel that carries Captain Planet)

    more to follow…..

  • invalid-0

    Awesome analogy! And not to mention, all these groups are LIBERAL LEFT-OF-CENTER.

  • invalid-0

    I disagree with the characterization that all anti-abortion/prolife people are in favor of killing abortion doctors. That in and of itself goes against the very premise of being “pro life”. I am pro life and as such, I am also against the death penalty. Personally I would like to see someone who has murdered and been convicted in a court of law have to pay for their crimes, it also gives them a chance to seek forgiveness not just for themselves, but to the families of their victims.

    I had an abortion, against my will, with an ex husband who did not want children. He found a complicent doctor who agreed to drug me up and get me an abortion. Where is the justice for me? I felt guilty for 20+ years over this incident. I have fought against people like Dr. Tiller who have no moral compass and who certainly, despite being in church, can’t possibly serve the same Jesus Christ that is my lord. My Lord is for life, not murder, including the unborn.

  • invalid-0

    If a mother’s health was at risk because of a pregnancy in ANY stage wouldn’t the procedure be done in a hospital? Abortion clinics are not for health, they are for convenience.

  • emma

    I’m not American, mister, so American public opinion isn’t particularly relevant to my life.

     

    And I guess your response means that you don’t actually need to know why women have late terminations, or what post-partum psychosis actually is. I mean, why would you actually need to know what you’re on about in order to make vile, misogynistic judgments, right? You can just lie, like all anti-choicers do. Your obvious loathing for all women is showing, Billy, right down to your condescending reference to me as ‘miss’.

     

    Your previous comments seem to suggest you’re pro-war, Billy. How many Iraqi foetuses do you think have been slaughtered? Or do they just not count?

     

    I don’t get why you lot insist on trolling here. Wouldn’t you be better suited to somewhere like Free Republic, where the wingnuts gather?

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    I want to post one more thing in relation to Tiller and I think I speak for the mainstream pro-life movement when I say this…

    We – as pro-life people – do not approve of what happened in Witchita, Kansas on Sunday. As pro-lifers, we were hoping for a much better outcome. For Tiller to see his wrongs and have a change of heart and convert to our side. As Roe did of Roe v Wade.

    What a wonderful thing it would have been to see George Tiller come to his clinic one morning a changed man. Announcing to his staff that he will no longer be performing any more termination proceedures. It could have happened. It might have happened.

    Almost like the magic we see each Holiday Season when we watch “A Christmas Carol”. Seeing Scrooge that Christmas morning as a changed man always leaves a lump on my throat.

    It is yet another fact that more people go from being pro-abortion to pro-life than they do the other direction. There has also got to be a reason for that.

    Jesus would never approve of abortion.

  • emma

    Yes, Anonymous, all the women at this site were just terminating for fun. But you wouldn’t want to actually know what you were talking about, would you?

  • invalid-0

    And you’re not wingnuts over here? I will bet my last dime that 19 out of 20 people who read and write here are of the left wing. The other 5% are probably blocked after a while or have their posts removed or are just bullied and intimidated from posting.

    Every time I start posting here, I do so with most respect in the beginning. I simply post my opinions about abortion. And before long, I am being called names like anti-choice zealot and woman-hating extremist and now – I am even partly to blame for Tiller’s murder.

    I’m just a guy with an opinion. And my opinion is now American mainstream according to zogby. And before you go into that whole anti-man thing, I will have you know that most of the women I know are pro-life, too.

  • emma

    Dr Tiller wasn’t convicted of anything.

     

    Can you spare us the Jesus-my-sky-daddy stuff? It’s tedious.

  • emma

    Yes, I am left wing. Is this a problem for you?

     

    Oh god, and here we go with the ‘zomg you’re anti-man!!11′ stuff. My antipathy toward you is personal; nothing to do with your being male. :) Thankfully, the men in my life are pro-choice leftists, like me. I also don’t particularly care about the views of ‘most of the women [you] know’, just as I’m sure you’re not especially interested in the beliefs of the men I know. If you behave like a misogynist, I will call you out on it; I’m not going to apologise for that.

     

    And again, American public opinion is not relevant to my life, so I don’t know why you keep bringing it up.

  • bj-survivor

    You are sadly mistaken to claim that more women murder their own children than do men. Women commit drastically fewer crimes, across the board, than men except for two: shoplifting and murder of their own children. Sadly, your spew is nothing less than I expect from a terror-apologist pro-liar.

  • bj-survivor

    Please, tell me just how many followers of those groups have maimed and murdered other people?

    You misogynist terror-apologizers really are lunatics. 

  • invalid-0

    I’m making a statement and will probably hear from some of you, but I am spiritual (some of you will care, some not) and living the path I’m supposed to.
    At 17 I had an abortion. I had broken up with a physically, emotionally and verbally abusive man. I could not care for a child and did not feel that I could provide the support at 17 that I could at a later date. Now, at 28, I know I was right. My friends took me to a “crisis pregnancy center”, unbeknownst to us that it was somewhere where I was cajoled, criticized and demeaned. I ended up at a Planned Parenthood where I got honest medical information instead of a stick to pee on and damning literature. I had an abortion the next week. I now have a good job and am getting a graduate degree. I have always been pro-choice and was grateful the services were there when I needed them. I offer no apologies for this choice and have no regrets nor offer any explaination for review, knowing now at 28 what I didn’t know at 17. I made a choice that was best for me. That must be good enough.
    My God is love and she is all things working toward my highest good. I don’t need badly pulled, out of context bible quotes to guilt myself and I don’t need others to do it for me. Anti-choice is a affirmation that increases conflict, not peace. I will not be a part of that.
    I had an abortion and I am a healthy, happy individual who works to keep abortions safe, legal and rare through honest sex education and compassion. My abortion and the doctor who did it made this possible. I thank him for that.

    • invalid-0

      Congratulations gradstudent81,you killed your child to further your education and career. I hope it doesn’t bother you to much, later in life, when you think back to what your aborted(killed) child could have accomplished in life.Why, he or she could even have been President of the United States!!

    • mellankelly1

      Thank you, gradstudent, for sharing your story… you made the best,  most moral and responsible decision and I’m thankful that you were born into a country at a time when you were able to make this choice. It’s so encouraging that more women are coming forward to speak about their individual stories with abortion.  Especially in light of recent events, ti’s important for women to find their voice. The focus should be on womens health and those in who are vehemently anti-abortion and certainly the extremists and terrorist attempt to remove women from the discussion. We must keep the focus on women… the stigma lessens every time a woman opts to share her story.

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    Emma Wrote: Your previous comments seem to suggest you’re pro-war, Billy. How many Iraqi foetuses do you think have been slaughtered? Or do they just not count?

    Now now now, Emma, please. I understand you’re not an American, but it was all these left wing liberal anti-war bloggers, with the help of CNN and the NY Times who constantly demonized the US Military by saying they tortured and terrorized Muslims all over the world – that triggered this black Muslim in Arkansas to shoot and kill Private William Long outside that recruiting center.

    Yes. If us pro-life bloggers and Bill O’Reilly are responsible for Tiller’s murder, then it can work both ways.

    And losing an American soldier is a lot worse than losing a guy who killed 60,000 innocent babies. Not for nothing. But I am a compassionate being and I don’t think anyone deserves an eternity of torment, so I will pray for Tiller’s soul in hopes that the Lord forgives him for the evil he has done in his life….and Lord knows he made a lot of money from it… he really made a killing – literally.

    • emma

      The US did torture Muslims at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram Air Base, and the CIA black sites. I wasn’t aware this was even in dispute at this point.

       

      I wasn’t asking about American soldiers being killed; I was asking why the lives of Iraqi foetuses are unimportant. You wrote above that murder is always wrong. Perhaps you should have qualified that and written something like ‘murder is always wrong, unless it’s murdering Iraqis with cluster bombs’.

       

      A right-wing fundie hypocrite. How unusual. You’re a waste of my time, Billy.

  • bj-survivor

    It’s a little late for backpedaling. You and your fellow anti-abortion wanna-be terrorists have already implied that Dr. Tiller had it coming.  Why, all over Faux News and the Internet "pro-lifers" are coming out of the woodwork to do their happy dance over the cold-blooded murder of this courageous man. His assassination was murder, while the surgical expulsion of zygotes, embryos, and fetuses simply is not. Murder is not legal. Abortion is.

     

    Dr. George Tiller was a feminist of deep conviction. There was no chance that he would ever become a misogynist terror-apologizer like you and your vile ilk. 

  • http://www.123bingoonline.com invalid-0

    As pro-lifers, we were hoping for a much better outcome. For Tiller to see his wrongs and have a change of heart and convert to our side. As Roe did of Roe v Wade. What a wonderful thing it would have been to see George Tiller come to his clinic one morning a changed man. Announcing to his staff that he will no longer be performing any more termination proceedures.

  • http://www.billykess.com/ invalid-0

    Hey onlinebingo. I know you’re only here to promote your website so you can make money in your pajamas and not have to actually go to work, but at least have the courtesy to make your own posts. What you did is called plagiarism. Shame on you.
    http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/06/02/dont-call-it-murder#comment-21775

  • invalid-0

    When does a human being get human rights?

    (the term “human being” is purely scientific – the zygote/embryo/fetus has separate, unique HUMAN (not dog or monkey) DNA and is alive and existing = human be-ing)

  • http://www.1wallmart.com/women-health.php invalid-0

    you can’t get your point across with violence that is straight ignorance, we as to learn to get our word out without violence.

  • invalid-0

    Those men don’t represent anyone, and certainly not the pro-life movement. They pickted Jerry Falwell’s funeral, and think Billy Graham is going straight to hell for goodness sake. Don’t associate anyone with them!

  • invalid-0

    I’d really like to see a link to a credible reference that has any evidence of this. It is illegal to not report child rape if you have reasonable evidence that it occurred and if there is one thing that was true about Tiller, it’s that he operated within the law. If he hadn’t, he’d have been shut down years ago by anti choice zealots.

  • therealistmom

    A woman can’t have “post-partum psychosis” unless she is… I’ll spell it out slowly here… IN POST-PARTUM. That means she has RECENTLY GIVEN BIRTH. It is a rare escalation of post-partum depression, a depressive condition resulting from the hormone fluctuations and stress after birth.

    A woman who has an abortion is not “post-partum” nor are they “killing their baby”. If they were psychotic in any way it would not be a “post-partum” condition and any legitimate physician would not perform the surgery on her as she would be unable to give informed consent.

  • therealistmom

    The next Hitler or Ted Bundy. The thing is, no “person” existed, only a proto-human. The same effect could have happened if someone decided not to have sex on a specific day. Spare us the weak arguments please, they’ve been debunked a thousand times.

  • invalid-0

    I only brought up the subject of postpartum psychosis because it looked like “Emma” was using it as an excuse to abort(kill) a baby. Perhaps I took her comments out of context. I agree that for the life of the mother the baby should be aborted(killed), if that is her choice. I’m sure that the thought of Mr. Tiller aborting(killing) thousands of babies every year drove Mr. Roeder crazy and so he made the choice to abort(kill) Mr. Tiller. Maybe he was in such a mental state that he should not have been allowed to make that decision. The same could be said for a woman having a baby.

  • invalid-0

    I posted my story not to illustrate some weird supperiority, but to support that women don’t need a “reason” to abort a fetus. We see lots of heartfelt stories of women who choose to abort because of lifethreatening complications to the mother or fetus. Those make a compelling case, but there shouldn’t have to be a reason. It’s my body and life. I make decisions about it every day. If I choose to not be pregnant, for whatever reason, that is also my decision. I shouldn’t have to defend it any more than I should have to defend what I wear on a given day. No woman should have to defend her actions regarding her family planning to anyone not willing to partake in the family.

  • emma

    Yes, agree with Mellankelly1 – thank you for sharing your story.

  • invalid-0

    I think “TheRealistMom” should be named “ThePessimistMom”. Maybe we should abort(kill) every unborn baby because they might be the next Hitler or Ted Bundy. In fact, kill(abort) every human being; you never know when someone is going to turn to evil. Here’s what you don’t understand. A person did exist, in it’s very first stage of life. A proto-human is still a human, while a sperm or unfertilized egg is not a human. Sperm and eggs carry the exact same DNA as the donor, but when they are combined they form their own unique DNA, a combination of all the DNA from both parents. An example is when an egg goes unfertilized in a woman, it flushes itself out. That’s a menstrual cycle not an abortion(killing). It’s possible that the fetus(unborn baby) dies and is flushed out or, as was mentioned in another comment, stays inside and causes infection. In both cases the woman should see a doctor,preferably one oriented toward saving lives, not taking lives as an abortion(killing) doctor does. An everyday example is when a pregnant woman is said to be eating for two. People don’t say that because she’s twice the size of a normal person(lol, sorry), they say that because there really are two people, the mother and the unborn child. I hypothesize that that is also the reason women have strange cravings while pregnant; the child wants something that the mother normally doesn’t eat. Perhaps he or she got that from his or her father. Look at the biology, from sex to fertilization to embryo to fetus to birth, and you can see at what point a unique human is created. To gradstudent81 and anyone else in this situation, two of my sisters had their first child while in high school and so far no Hitlers or Ted Bundys(no presidents either) and everyone involved is doing fine in life.

  • invalid-0

    I have a niece who is about the age that you were when you ended your pregnancy. I could not IMAGINE her being pregnant and trying to raise a child at 17. You did the right thing at the right time for you, and I applaud you for it. I probably would have done the same thing if I had gotten pregnant as a teenager. No teenager should be forced to be a parent! Ending a pregnancy at that age is definitely an act of compassion. Birth control does fail and a teen’s life shouldn’t be ruined because of it. Thank you for sharing your story.

  • invalid-0

    When a fed-up pro-choicer assassinates Professor Robert P. George of Princeton and Father Frank Pavone of “Priests for Life”, pro-choicers will say these assassinations were wrong but no worse than what George and Frank were doing every day.

  • invalid-0

    You just can’t help yourself, huh? YOU want the murders of the above mentioned people so that YOU would feel justified to declare Jihad on pro-choice people. You’ve even posed as a pro-choice person on at least one other place on this website claiming the need to kill these anti-choice representatives. Are you obsessed enough to commit those murders yourself so you can blame pro-choice people of it? You really need intervention.

  • emma

    Take your masturbatory fantasies elsewhere, please.

  • invalid-0

    The facts hurt, right? These fake pro-choice comments are all over the place on this blog. For an example, search this site for “The legacy of George Tiller,” and read the comments. YOU take your dismissive comments elsewhere, please, and take your juvenile sexual metaphores as well.

  • emma

    Unbelievable that we actually need to spell out the fact that post-partum psychosis occurs post-partum.

     

     

    Roger – it is not an ‘excuse’. I was attempting to inform BillyKess that post-partum psychosis (a) is different from post-partum depression; and (b) means that someone is not in touch with reality. That is what psychosis is. It’s just fact. If you have a problem with the diagnostic label, take it to the APA.

     

    It’s also incredibly pathetic, cheap and unbelievably stupid to suggest that the existence of post-partum psychosis is a reason to illegalise abortion. I’m almost speechless at the amount of stupid in your comment, Roger. It was an almost literal *head-desk* moment.

  • emma

    It has become evident to me in the past week or two that anti-choicers are professional victims and martyrs with persecution complexes. One of their lot murders a doctor, and they’re the ones who are whining about how everyone is so terribly mean and unfair to them. I am, at this point, of the impression that they would be absolutely thrilled if a pro-choicer lost her/his mind and committed violent acts against an anti-choicer. It would be, as I wrote before, a masturbatory fantasy for them: they could feel all persecuted and self righteously indignant and martyr-like.

     

    It was with those considerations in mind that I responded to DoctorDefense.

     

    There are far too many Anon commenters at the moment. Anons, would adopting a screen name hurt that much, just so we could tell you apart?

  • invalid-0

    Okay, I understand that you weren’t directing your comments to me. My bad. Thank you for your clarification. And I’ve adjusted my anonymous handle just a bit to remain anonymous AND recognizable. Unfortunately, adjusting my handle isn’t a guarantee that I won’t misunderstand something again.

    Yes, many anti-abortion folks do have a persecution complex. Many are taught about persecution in their churches and by Faux News and Pat-Robertson-styled TV and radio. Surely Christians and many others who didn’t follow Roman laws, for example, celebrating mandated Roman holidays, were persecuted during the beginning of the Common Era through Constantine’s making Christianity the official religion. Every group has faced persecution of some kind. But in this country, Christians and people from a myriad of beliefs have enjoyed this country’s freedoms to worship. However, the radicals are going even further as some anti-choice commenters are pretending to be pro-choice and talking about killing anti-abortion people. It is entirely disgusting. I don’t want anybody from either side to be killed to make a political point or for ANY reason–except for self-defense maybe.

    Fortunately, many of those ugly comments have been removed. This is so important–that pro-choice websites not demonstrate negligence by allowing their sites to be used to incite violence even towards people who suggest that their own fellow adherents be killed.

  • emma

    Ok, thanks. Yeah, I’ve seen anti-choicers pretending to be pro-choicers and trying to incite violence.

    It does show a certain level of desperation on their part, I think, when they’re trying to make us look as violent as they are? They have to know how bad they look right now…

  • http://dynastyirondoors.com/ invalid-0

    I may not agree with abortion at all but I do believe in the freedom to make choices for yourself. We live in the United States right? We have the choice to make decisions that affect our bodies right? Like if we are diagnosed with a terminal illness, we can choose to not do anything to continue fighting for life or we can do what we can to get better, right?

  • http://www.aspectcarrental.com/car_hire_uk.html invalid-0

    I can’t believe the rage I am reading. At what point do you just ask yourself, “am I doing what I know is right?” and leave the rest alone. You simply can’t control the actions of others. People will do what people are going to do regardless of your opinion on the matter. God Bless, and try to have a better day!

  • http://www.spinletslab.com/ invalid-0

    Heyyaa…. jus saw a very same blog somewhere else too !!! guess somebody’s been copyin ur stuff…

  • http://tropicalsky.co.uk invalid-0

    Ummm, sounds to me like this is all a bit too extreme… Although we all have our own views on how things should happen, whether or not Abortion is right, it isn’t the people that are performing the abortions that should be targetted, if things like this need to be stopped people need to come up with a decent reason why they should be, i am not saying that abortion is right, i am simply saying that killing the people performing them are wrong.

    Everybody should go on holiday for a while.