This is What Religious Objection to Abortion Looks Like?


Abortion is illegal in Brazil except when a woman’s life is in danger or if the woman has been raped. Public hospitals in Brazil, largely as a result of the work of the strong feminist movement in that country, have been steadily improving abortion services for women who have been raped.

A case in point is the abortion performed Wednesday on a nine-year-old girl who was carrying twins. The girl had been raped by her stepfather, who is now in jail awaiting trial. Doctors at the public hospital where the abortion was performed noted that the girl who weighs very little and simply could not sustain the pregnancy which posed a serious risk to her life.

Stories like this are not uncommon in Latin America. Family planning counselors from Nicaragua to Argentina report seeing pregnant women from nine- to thirteen-years-old regularly. In 2003, international attention was focused on “Rosa,” another nine-year-old in Nicaragua who was also raped and was lucky enough to get a legal abortion. Abortion is now totally illegal in Nicaragua – even for nine-year-old rape victims.

Paulina, a 13-year-old Mexican girl who had been raped in late 1999, was not so lucky. She sought an abortion and was denied. Paulina was subject to several violations of her human rights while pregnant, including the leaking of her condition to anti-abortion forces in the state who then invaded her hospital room with anti-choice propaganda. The local district attorney drove her to the office of a local priest who then also tried to convince her not to have an abortion. In the end, Paulina had a baby. In small part, Paulina’s story resulted in the legalization of abortion in Mexico City. We can now hope that other children who become pregnant will not suffer her fate.

These cases tear at most people’s heart. These are unambiguous reasons for legal abortion for almost everyone – except the Roman Catholic church. For in each of these cases, local bishops have intervened to try and prevent the abortion, to seek criminal charges against health care workers and, when all else fails, to threaten to excommunicate those involved.

In the Brazilian case, Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho noted in an interview with the Brazilian press that the actions of the girl’s mother and her doctors meant excommunication. The church thought that the girl should continue the pregnancy and deliver the child by Cesarean section. No mention was made of excommunicating the stepfather who had raped the nine-year-old child.

The bishop was aware enough of the canons concerning excommunication not to claim that the girl was excommunicated. Canon law prohibits the excommunication of anyone under the age of majority. But, was the bishop correct in his opinion that the “adults” who were involved had “incurred excommunication?” Maybe not.

The assertion reminded me of an attempt by Mexican bishops to excommunicate the legislators in Mexico City who voted to legalize abortion. During an impromptu press conference on Shepherd One, the papal plane, which at the time was on its way to Brazil, Pope Benedict was asked if this was appropriate. “Yes,” he said “the excommunication was not arbitrary, it is part of canon law."

Huh?

Within minues, the papal spokesperson walked back to the press and tempered the remarks. The next day, the transcript of the event excluded the Pope’s "yes."

While the lack of compassion Archbishop Sobrinho exhibited is without question, his canonical wisdom is in question. Excommunication of the sort he discussed is not imposed. Rather, it is considered self-admininistered by the person who has committed the act. And if the person believes the action they took was not sinful, but was the most moral alternative in a difficult situation, then no excommunication has occurred. For this mother and the girl’s doctors no decision could have been more moral.

Like this story? Your $10 tax-deductible contribution helps support our research, reporting, and analysis.

  • invalid-0

    Excommunicating EVERYONE who is not totally opposed to abortion Or birth control is the best thing that could happen. This would highlight the misogynistic basis for this isolated & privileged group of males in the RCC hierarchy. Then maybe Catholics would stop pretending these males have any credibility and stop giving them money to promote their anti-woman agendas.

    • invalid-0

      Sadly, the Catholics that give them money – the serious cash anyway (like the ones linked to Opus Dei and Legion of Christ)- already share their agendas.

  • http://personal.inet.fi/private/walkabout invalid-0

    The archbishop refers to God’s Law. However, abortion is nowhere forbidden in the Bible; indeed, it isn’t even mentioned. So the Church applies the fifth commandment: Thou shalt not kill. Look who’s talking–the Catholic Church ranks right behind folks like Nero, Caligula, Hitler, and Stalin when it comes to killing those who have disagreed with it over the centuries. If the Church had had its way, the girl would have died a slow and painful death, with her twins, when they would have grown too big for her little body. Killed by the Church, all three of them. Thou shalt not kill, indeed.

    The mother and the doctors have been excommunicated. But not the stepfather, he who broke an actual command in God’s Law: Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. (Lev. 18:17) The punishment to be administered is spelled out in clear: Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. (Lev. 18:29) Excommunication, that is. Commanded in God’s Law, but not carried out by the Church, because the poor sinner is a man. In the eyes of the Church, he’s still a Catholic in good standing.

    The misogynism of conservative so-called Christians comes from the same Middle Eastern tradition as that of conservative Muslims like the Taleban: Woman, even at nine years old, is but a vessel meant to bear sons for a man. She has no rights, particularly not over her own body. If there are complications with a pregnancy and a choice has to be made, always let the woman die: she has no value.

    For more on failed religious institutions, read my free book.

  • invalid-0

    Frances, thank you for bringing these incidents up. The story of Rosa was what led to me finally leaving the Roman Catholic Church.

    More than that, it opened me up to the possibility of the RCC being a fundamentally evil institution—that nonetheless has a lot of good people in it—by so utterly, indefensibly, unforgivably failing half the human race. It would be one thing if the Church had silently averted their eyes in these cases, preferring hypocrisy to the clear evil of forcing these young girls to carry their pregnancies to term; but no—they did everything they could to coerce them into doing so, rhetorically, spiritually and legally, and no one in the hierarchy has disavowed this.

    I feel this is even more damning than the sexual-abuse scandal, because there, the Church at least paid lip service to the fact that it was a bad thing (even if the Vatican, to this day, continues to shelter Bernard Law from the U.S. legal system). Here, it is avowed Church canon, all the way to the very top.

    The ultimate indictment of the Church is that, between sticking to doctrine and doing the right thing, they choose the former every time. Even at the cost of human lives. We saw it with AIDS and condoms in Africa, with contraception in many socially conservative countries, and ultimately here, where 9-year old girls giving birth from rape is part of the Kingdom of God.

  • invalid-0

    …I’m grateful that we are a secular nation. Everything about this tragedy for these young girls is beyond comprehension.
    …I thought the Roman Catholic faith was about Jesus dying for the faithful’s sins, not that the little girls or their caregivers did anything wrong. But in the church’s eyes, their own god’s sacrifice and forgiveness wasn’t enough I guess. The church has to have a male-only clergy club threaten excommunication–but not of the father-figure rapist? I’s all greek to me.
    …Although I don’t understand the layers of injustices perpetrated on these girls and their caregivers, my heart goes out to them all. Again, I’m so grateful we live in a country where this powerful male-only clergy club has no influence on my life or that of my family. And I thought that channel surfing and seeing the likes of Pat Robertson on my screen was bad enough. This story gives me some perspective. My heart goes out to all the people in these countries who are going up against such unjust power in order to be free from them.

  • invalid-0

    Leave or boycott the catholic church! It seems to be the only way to make a statement that says I HAVE HAD IT WITH MALE BIGOTS!
    So many good women work as volunteers in the Catholic church. What an impact it would make to just walk out.
    I left at age 18 and said I would not go back until women were treated as equals….. I am still waiting……

  • invalid-0

    But we do not live in a secular nation where the worst that can happen is that you see Pat Robertson on TV while channel surfing.

    You will find, if you research at all, or follow the issues presented on this site or numerous others- that the religious fundamentalists have very much influenced public policy, they have in the past and they are continuing to do so as we go forward. And we MUST continue to fight this.(see Americans United for separation of church and state,theocracy watch etc. for additional information).
    Now, about the Catholic Church- how many US politicians has the church, the Pope and or the bishops threatened to excommunicate- just in the last couple of months- if they didn’t adhere to the Church’s position on abortion, birth control etc.??? Too numerous to mention.It is outrageous. We elect officials to represent us- the citizens of this country- not the Church or the Pope.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to jump on you- certainly things are not as bad in this country as they are in others, but constant vigilance is required to prevent the sad state of affairs that exist in some other countries with regard to women.

  • invalid-0

    …After reading Ms. Kissling’s blog, I was thinking what it would be like to live in a country where Roman Catholicism has a much more powerful grip on average people since so many of Brazil’s citizens identify as Roman Catholic.
    …Even though there are many RCs in my neighborhood, for instance, the threat of ex-communication doesn’t mean anything to me because I don’t identify as RC, and there’s no shame that I’m not even a Christian (I’m UU) even though I live in a small, struggling town in a county that has more registered Dems than Repubs but where McCain received more votes than Obama by 5 points–not liberal by a long shot. Without the power of shame and a homogeneous belief system, there can be no ex-communication, be it Catholic or from any other social institution.
    …There is a healthy assumption of equality and privacy that I attribute to our secular culture that I enjoy whether the religious people in my community acknowledge it or not–they probably attribute relative peace and harmony among our neighbors to their god. Whether or not these religious people discuss my spiritual/moral “decay” or “demise” while not in my presence doesn’t negate my equal standing in the community, and neither my family or I have any special sway here. That’s what I’m grateful for.
    …Is it perfect? Nope. Do I need to be vigilent against those who want to thwart the secular underpinnings of our Constitutuion and culture? Yep. Am I blind to their influence on politicians? Nope. Have I let it be known that I disagree with my neighbors on issues like women’s equality, abortion, etc.? Yep. Can I be grateful for seemingly a little progress? Yep. If I didn’t, I’d be pretty hopeless and just give up. And thank you for acknowledging that things are a little bit better in this country than in others.
    …By the way, I’m a member of AU. And I wish Joan Bokaer of Theocracy Watch had more exposure in mainstream media–but I wish that about most of our thoughtful mentors.
    …Peace to you.

  • invalid-0

    I was born into the RCC but never attended, as at a very early age, realized how sexist it was and is. Thankfully, my family has supported my decision and also left as a result of my enlightening them. Not everyone who is born into it can be brainwashed by it, but it is very important that the RCC loses people, money, and power, as a result of the extreme Partiarcy, and lack of capacity for reason. I find many similar stories of women and girls leaving the church for these very reasons, and I have to add that I am happy to have enlightened and influenced them to get away from this anti woman institution.

  • invalid-0

    agree
    It’s interesting, because for the first time in my life I seem to be encountering a striking number of Christians- most of whom are very conservative about these matters (read “anti”)and are active in trying to impose those beliefs on others. It is an anathema to me.
    And thank you for you very interesting response- I really was just venting.

  • invalid-0

    A nine year old girl,got pregnat by her step-dad,but only the mother and the doctors were excomuataed ? W.T.F???
    Preist’s of the said church molest kid’s every day.
    Why aren’t they excommutated ?
    If you go to a church service, then that must mean, that you support them in doing just that.Molesting chrildren.

  • invalid-0

    It is such painfull and emotionally charged issue no matter what side one is. I am trying however to look at this as calm and collected without any biasses. After all I am a man and do not pretend to know half the issues a woman goes through when coming to such decision. It’s so much easier to just carry to term. And while this carries a consecuence the other choice is just as difficult if not worse.
    The only way to look at this is from the perspective of the mother and her condition, circumstances, moral and physical strength. This should be the start of the discussion and not morality or religion. Because if everything was discussed that way, we could end up persecuting everyone. For everything and anything. This is the aspect of religion that religious people don’t get. Notwithstanding the personal aspect of the mother’s health, social and economic conditions as well as her view on the moral aspect of it.

    • invalid-0

      It’s so much easier to just carry to term.

      Spoken as someone who has zero understanding of reproductive physiology. Spontaneous and elective abortion carry infinitely far less risk of morbidity and mortality than do carrying to term and then undergoing labor.

      And this is why only the pregnant woman (and not the church nor the government nor random strangers) has final say over her own pregnancy. Because her life and medical decisions are nobodye’s business but her own. What decision she makes (keep, adopt, or terminate) is hers and hers alone, as she is the one who is subject to all the risks and the majority of the heartaches of each of those alternatives.

  • invalid-0

    Hey, if we can’t vent, we ain’t free. And you’re very correct about the cons and religious right folks’ imposing their beliefs on others. I’ve discussed the following before on this website, but indulge me with my rant about the imposers:
    …Their cosmology demands imposition. Their story is about an outside force, namely an all-knowing and all-loving but very judgmental male anthropomorphic deity who assembled the planet and placed everything on it short order, specifically six days. Not long after their creation story begins, humans are deemed “sinful,” the inherent inferiority of women is assumed, and humans already understand agriculture; ergo, no evolution from hunter-gather to farmer let alone all the elements of life being created when stars were formed. Hence the evolution of women’s story of always needing to control the number of children they had since they experienced a steady food supply and the story of all of life is quashed. The rest of their narrative is told from male-god-over-man-over-woman- over-children-over-everything-else-on-the-planet hierarchy and how everybody must accept their “salvation message” by conforming to their paradigm.
    …Then there’s their obsession with “women’s sins” that really drives them. When you think about it, even homosexuality bothers them because they don’t like men “acting like” women, and they don’t like women depending on each other instead of men.
    …Since neither you nor I nor the vast majority of people on this website accept their cosmology, the imposers feel obligated to evangelize us, particularly since many of us are pretty emphatic about our own stories and our free will, which they interpret as “selfishness” and “disobedience.”
    …Their world has been turned upside down particularly since the last election, and their political party is a bit disorganized right now but that won’t last long because their nature is to conform and be organized.
    …But we must continue to engage, particularly with those with open minds. Above all, we must use our voices to tell our own stories even when our voices shake.

  • invalid-0

    So how is it “so much easier to just carry to term”? And what “other choice is just as difficult if not worse”?
    And how did you come to these assessments after you correctly explained that “as a man … (you) do not pretend to know half the issues a woman goes through when coming to such decision.” I’m just asking in a calm and collected way without any biasses–really.

  • colleen

    "No mention was made of excommunicating the stepfather who had raped the nine-year-old child."\

    Of course not. To the best of my knowledge no man has ever been excommunicated from the RCC for raping a chilld or a woman. That’s not nearly as bad as, say, voting for a pro-choice Democrat or taking birth control pills or trying to save your raped 9 year old daughter’s life.

    Its amusing how silent the right wing Catholics who post here are about this story,  It’s as if they don’t see  Francis Kissling’s  excellect post at all. And, to answer the question in of her title , yes, this is what religious objection to abortion looks like. At bottom this is what all Patriarchial religions look like.

    • invalid-0

      I’m not a silent RCC member. I just feel like Jesus being led to his torture. He did’nt say much either. Your hate has blinded you.

      Abortion is taking a human life. It is against God’s law to take a human life, except in very rare dire situations. You know this. This is a difficult case, but I ask you a question; which is worse- death or rape? One is worse than the other; both are horrible, but which is worse?

  • colleen

    "It’s so much easier to just carry to term."

    What are you talking about?

    Did you miss the part where the discussion was about raped and pregnant children? In this latest case from Brazil the doctors said that this little 9 year old girl’s (she weighed in at no more than 80 lbs) life was in danger.

     

  • invalid-0

    To argue abstract religious theories (no proof or facts needed) than face this rather dramatic story.The fundamentalists on this site- will never deal with these realities.
    Thank you Ms. Kissling, your post was a sharp reminder that we are NOT dealing in abstract theory- but that there are very real victims out there.

  • truth

    Please boycott the Catholic Church because you clearly have no understanding of the Catholic Church’s teachings. The Catholic Church is not going to change to suit modern agendas of a contraceptive society – Humanae Vitae clearly explained the reason(s) why – read and embrace the Truth and remain or become a True Roman Catholic or don’t. We don’t need you to volunteer or give money – just leave – there are plenty of other church’s that subscribe to your ways. The path is narrow…

    • invalid-0

      THIS PERSON IS A RELIGIOUS FRAUD WHO DOES NOT GET IT. IT THINKS ITS GOD BUT IT IS NOT.

  • invalid-0

    …Are there any groups who help families who have been ex-communicated or threatened to be ex-communicated from the RCC, particularly in countries where that institution has such strong sway?
    …Perhaps there are groups in this country that have the resources and connections to help people here and in other parts of the world. Certainly there are pro-choice groups who can reach out to these people as well, especially the little girl.
    …Humans need community. That’s why they often turn to religion. These people have been betrayed by the RCC. I hope that the little girl and her mother have a place to be safe from the rapist-step-father.

  • invalid-0

    To Truth: I was a Catholic and am appalled that you support a church that has this kind of values! Vatican can get away with anything they want but not the parishoners? Maybe there are good priests and parishoners but that does not excuse what the Vatican has done or not done like what happened to all those Alter boys who were sexually abused.

    You don’t have to worry about me coming back I won”t!!!

  • colleen

    "you clearly have no understanding of the Catholic Church’s teachings."

    Explain it to us then.  Why is it ‘moral’ to kill a raped 9 year old girl by demanding she try to carry twins to term?
    Her stepfather raped her since she was 6 and raped her disabled 14 year old sister too. Why is that less offensive than what her mother did…which was authorize an abortion to save her child’s life?

     

    • invalid-0

      WHY the Cat-lick church felt it necessary to put pederasts waaaay up in Alaska where they raped and molested Native Alaskans for decades rather than excommunicate them.
      Do those kids just not matter?
      I guess only the fetus matters- when they’re born they can die for all they care.
      if they die at the hands of Cat-lick priests is that a better way to go than living a decent life free of their guilt inducing clap-trap for everything a person ever does?
      I hope this sick institution dies out in a few more decades.
      It’s disgusting.

  • invalid-0

    I was actually looking at comments from another story when someone asked why Catholics were not commenting on this one. I’m not pretending to be a perfect Catholic but I do try. My opinion probably does not square with the Vatican but none the less here it is: Life is sacred, but the life of an unborn child is not more sacred than that of an adult. Sexually active adults have a responsibility to use birth control if they don’t want to get pregnant and to be sure the birth control they are using is being used correctly. There’s really no excuse for an ooops! (certainly not in this country). Underage girls are not responsible for anything if they are being abused or molested. If a nine year old is attacked then a person who respects life will agree that in this case termination is a sad necessity in order to protect the life of the nine year old. The same is true for any rape victim. (See this is where the importance of “choice” does come in. For people who actually did have no choice they should have one, even if it includes abortion) However if you are talking about an adult (a fully functioning adult) who voluntarily consented to sexual activity without adequate birth control then she can not very well argue that she never had any choices and should carry her pregnancy to term and if she does not want to keep the child place him/her for adoption.

  • http://bjsurvivor.livejournal.com/618.html#cutid1 invalid-0

    So, it’s not about Life(tm), but simply about controlling women’s sexuality? See, we already knew this. You are not contributing anything new to this discussion.

    You believe that women should be punished for being sexual beings (i.e., being human) by being forced to create children that they either don’t want or cannot properly care for. Explain to me, please, how this is pro-child? ‘Cuz I’m at a loss.

    I like children and I believe they deserve to be welcomed with love and joy, have lots of time and attention from their parents, and adequate food, shelter, and educational opportunities. In short, I believe that children are persons, not punishments.

    Your morals are repugnant to me.

    • invalid-0

      cmarie did not really get it right , i’m afraid. However, she got some right. A man and a woman should have sex inside of marriage. They should not withhold themselves from each other, by using barriers, especially in the act designed for the most intimate contact, and also the transmission of life. God invented sex. If done like this, it’s like heaven on earth. All healthy, no disease or mistrust, or jealosies. And happiness in each other. You cant beat it with a stick. But we are pretty damaged creatures, and we steal a lot that is not ours to have, and it causes even more heartache. And it’s hard to stick to your guns with all the backstabbing around you. But if you can do it, DO It. It’s grand!

      • invalid-0

        God invented sex. If done like this, it’s like heaven on earth. All healthy, no disease or mistrust, or jealosies. And happiness in each other.

        Yeah…Tell this to the many thousands of monogamous, only-ever-had-sex-with-their-husbands African and Indian women who contracted HIV from their macho husbands.

        No, really, you need to educate yourself, because your silly superstitions have rendered you superlatively ignorant.

  • http://bjsurvivor.livejournal.com/618.html#cutid1 invalid-0

    It took a lot less than this for me to reject the vile morass of misogyny and depravity that is the RCC. I was 10 years old when my mother told me about her Mexican friend who was urged by her doctor to get a tubal ligation due to the increasingly horrendous pregnancies she’d been experiencing (2 toxic that required her to receive blood transfusions and the 3rd one landed her in the ICU for 10 days). Like a dutiful Catholic, she confessed this to her priest, who promptly discommuned her. I decided then and there that the RCC was Satan. And this was before I learned about the Crusades, inquisitions, and witch burnings, let alone the shuffling/covering-up of pedophile priests and Holocaust-denying.

  • harry834

    a woman who is raped should have the right to an abortion, but a woman who consented to sex should not have the right to an abortion, 

    is that what you said?

  • invalid-0

    I’m a little confused also about how you are being a good Catholic. The RCC is against birth control-
    So I’m totally confused how you can be a “good” catholic and also say you must use birth control.
    Which to me exposes the entire fraud of the Catholic church- As someone here said, it is amazing that any woman could be a catholic-

  • invalid-0

    Anon, I never said I was a “good” Catholic. If someone assaults you then obviously you are not responsible for that. but, lets suppose no one assaults you. Well, then you have to take some responsibility for your own voluntary actions. If I voluntarily have sex with someone, knowing that I don’t want his kid(s) and without bothering to use adequate birth control then I am taking one hell of a chance with my own future and that of any potential children. If I get pregnant as a result then I’d better take responsibility for my own actions and protect that baby. It’s not his/her fault he was conceived but its at least half my fault and as the adult I have a responsibility to carry him to term and either raise or place him for adoption. It’s not about punishment. It’s about responsibility. Obviously, rape victim– totally different story. I’m not going to tell someone she has to carry a rapist’s child to term. She was raped. She never had a choice at all. You are not responsible for “choices” forced on you by a rapist. You are responsible for your own voluntary actions. Abortion is a tragedy, but in a case of rape where for some reason a morning after pill was never provided it may be needed in order to allow the woman to have the choice she never had before conception. The one who just took an irresponsible chance has my sympathy but not to the point of abortion. And please don’t try to pretend the woman whose pregnancy is a direct result of her voluntary choices would suffer like one forced to carry a pregnancy by rape to term. Exercise your choice. If your going to be sexually active make sure you’re using adequate birth control. Pretending that’s unreasonable or just too complicated is insulting to all women.

  • invalid-0

    “I’m not pretending to be a perfect Catholic but I do try.”

    Then I suggest you go lecture your hypocritcal misogynist church about birth control- not me. I am fully behind birth control and wish to see it available on a world wide basis at low or no cost, or covered by insurance etc.

    But, Catholic hospitals, doctors and pahrmacists across the country won’t even dispense the morning after pill, or birth control pills, or any form of birth control. The church you defend and belong to has interfered with all attempts to provide family planning,reproductive care, abortion services across the world, to the young women cited in this article and to many other young women across the world who have been raped- such as in Darfur,Sudan etc.

    How can you even want to try to be a “perfect” Catholic-let alone a Catholic??? HELLO?????

    I believe I have seen statements from your church that if you don’t follow all their precepts- you need to resign.

    Seriously, rather than post here- you need to petition your church to change its ways- or resign from the church- as many on here have suggested- including Paul and Truth.

    • invalid-0

      Anon, I’m afraid the Church is the messenger, not the message. You cant petition to have doctrine changed. You have to take that up with God.
      The Church is against the “morning after” pill because it causes abortions, that’s how it works. And they are all for “family planning”, as long as artificial barriers between husband and wife are not used- but the rhythm method. Sex ouside of marriage is against God’s law, so they cant change the commandments of God. If these sound hard, well, they are! But not impossible, as I can tell you.
      And you can start anytime, from anyplace. I used to think like you, but as Bob Dylan says, “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”.

  • invalid-0

    Anon, most people don’t just mindlessly follow the doctrine of any particular religion. Actually my opinion (abortion just for rape or to save life of mother and pro birth control) is pretty mainstream. however, it isn’t going to appeal to radicals on either side and obviously, it doesn’t!

  • invalid-0

    So birth control is the answer- ok what are you doing to change your church? To make it easier for women to access birth control?
    I am suggesting that you raise your voice within the catholic church- rather than here.
    Because you are no less a hypocrite that your church.

  • invalid-0

    yeah, like I said on the one extreme there are people who are totally opposed to even birth control and than at the other there are people who have absolutly no problem telling a billion people that they belong to a hypocrital church because the senior members are opposed to birth control. Again no religion is perfect and no ideology is either. As to women who want to access birth control I guess I’d recomend Walgreens. That’s where I go. all the best……

    • invalid-0

      You can stop with the whining over “persecution,” my dear. No one is throwing you and your wretched ilk to the lions.

      Yes, it is entirely true that you belong to a blood-soaked, misogynistic, reprehensible church. And I have absolutely no problem telling you that. However, even though I think you and your superstitions are utterly puerile (and have no problem telling you so), I am NOT trying to force my views down your collective Catholic throats by outlawing your odious religion. You and your ilk, on the other hand, constantly interfere in secular affairs and constantly push to have your demented beliefs become the law of the land. It is a BIG difference, my dear. We are not docile little lambs who are going to roll over and let you and your vile ilk railroad us back into the Dark Ages.

      Considering the Crusades, the inquisitions, the push against condoms resulting in the African AIDS epidemic, the child-raping priests, the subsequent cover-up/obstruction of justice of said child-raping priests, the Holocaust-denying, and now this, you devout Catholics long ago lost your moral high ground.

  • invalid-0

    How wonderful you live in a state in which you have no problem accessing birth control- but this is no thanks to the efforts of the Catholic Church and its Bishops.

    I suggest you review many posts here, on the efforts- just in the US, to restrict access to birth control.And guess which Church is fully behind these efforts?? And in fact many people examing this have found that the Catholic Church is actually spearheading these efforts to rid this country of birth control.

    Here is one of Christine Page’s reports:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/birth-control-becomes-a-c_b_138929.html

    Also see the ND Egg as person article on this site.

    If you do any research at all into the Catholic Church’s efforts on birth control, you will find that most thoughtful commentators believe that the Catholic Church has set the cause for worldwide access to birth control and disease control back by many decades and have helped the spread of Aids (this through the Church’s adamant objection to the use of condoms)
    It is estimated that more than 150 million women worldwide do not have access to birth control despite their desire to use it. Much of this is due to religious restriction and political influence by the Catholic Church in third world countries.

    So, your answer is extremely flip and that is the kindest word I can think of.Uncaring, arrogant, blind etc would also be words I would use.

    So you just toddle on down to your local Walgreens, and hope your state legislature doesn’t fall under the church’s campaign to restrict and/or ban access to birth control.

  • invalid-0

    flip? ok then please let me know there name of the State where adults cannot just walk into a pharmacy and buy condoms. thanks

  • invalid-0

    If you base your nonsense argument on propaganda and lies spread by protestants then it’s still rubbish. The protestants in one particular witch burning frenzy managed to kill over 25000 people. Look up the Spanish inquisition and see how misguidedly stupid your remarks are.

    Your wilfully ignorant sexist interpretation would be funny but it’s too stupidly boring. The child has priority over the mother on a first in last out basis.

    It’s sad how sexism for wimmin or feminism as you call it is defined mainly by murdering unborn babies.

  • paul-bradford

    Naturally, I can only speak for myself — but I’m virtually certain that if you polled the members of my parish you’d discover that the vast majority of them think that Bishop Cardoso behaved abominably. Of course, you’d only be able to poll the members who are actually following the story. Most of the folks in my parish have had all they can take of clerical boneheadedness. The archbishop actually did damage to the Catholic perspective. His comments were not only self defeating, they were counterproductive. Of course, you could fill a library of books with stories such as this one. Fortunately, most Catholics know how to pray over their priest’s head, or their ordinary’s mitre.

     

    It’s important to draw a sharp distinction between injustice and culpability. Human beings are very sensitive to the culpability issue and we don’t like to inculpate people who act on good motives, or who themselves have been victims of injustice, or who would, through inaction, be forced to endure suffering and danger. We certainly don’t like to inculpate people when someone else, someone with bad motives who causes rather than endures suffering, ought to be blamed.

     

    The fact that His Grace was that clueless about ordinary human sensibilities causes me to suspect that he is a long way from understanding the passage Mt 10:16 Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.

     

     The archbishop may be as simple as any dove, but he’s not very shrewd at all.

     

    The Church, and its members, must always speak out against injustice. The fact that the twin children of this little girl lost their lives at such an early age and in such a horrible way is a monstrous injustice; but let’s not get tripped up by questions of culpability. To even consider culpability with regard to the mother, the doctors, or the little girl herself serves no useful purpose whatsoever. No one has to be told that if this disgusting stepfather hadn’t misbehaved no one would have lost his or her life. If the Most Rev. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho had been shrewd enough to keep his mouth shut on the question of culpability he could have pleaded like a dove against the injustice of abortion. He’d certainly have a more receptive audience than he got by talking about excommunication.

     

    I’m not the only one who has noticed that religious people would generally rather play the blame game than make some real strides toward authentic righteousness; but I don’t think the problem with them is that they’re religious. I think the problem is that they’re people. Just about everyone would rather play a game of ‘Who’s the a-hole?’ than battle injustice. And we see that human tendency played out in this tawdry, but all-too-common story (wouldn’t it be nice if this particular victim of sexual depravity were the only girl under the age of twelve who was raped and impregnated by a family member?) Archbishop Cardoso has us asking the question "Which is worse, to get a girl pregnant or to perform an abortion?" BUT IT’S THE WRONG QUESTION TO ASK. What we should be asking is, "Which behaviors can we actually change that will result in saving lives?"

     

    This story, because it’s sensational, is in the news; but there’s a lesson to be drawn that can be applied to less newsworthy cases of pregnancy termination. Whenever we talk about protecting the unborn, the first thing we think about is how to stop women from accessing abortion. If we like to think of ourselves as ‘Pro Life’ we propose restrictions as a solution. If we like to think of ourselves as ‘Pro Choice’ we defend against the possibility of restrictions. Either way, we’re in for a fight. The problem is that we’re asking the wrong question. We ask, "Is it worse to get a woman pregnant or to procure an abortion?" To my mind, the question itself is a waste of time.  We should be asking, "What can we do to protect lives?" When we ask that question we’re forced to think about effectiveness.

     

    Why do I think it would be more effective to try and protect unmarried women from pregnancy than it would be to try and stop them from aborting? I think so because you can get the whole country behind the former strategy whereas the latter one only leads to unending conflict. Ask a random sample of Americans, "Does a woman have the right to an abortion?" and you’ll hear a great deal of disagreement. Ask that same sample, "Does a man have the right to impregnate a woman against her will?" and you’ll find that no one dares to answer ‘Yes’.

     

    Am I saying that the man is always more wrong than the woman? No, I’m saying that we should stop worrying about who is ‘more wrong’ and start thinking of ways that people can actually change what they do. Women have heard enough lectures about how they shouldn’t abort. Whatever utility that tactic offers has been realized. It’s time to start lecturing men about keeping women free from unwanted pregnancies. Think of the millions of lives we could save that way.

    Paul Bradford

    Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

    • invalid-0

      Whatever. A lot of talk, but where do you throw in your chips? Dont you agree we should lessen ,nay, eliminate abortion as much as possible? What “choice” do you want people to have? How about adoption? Yeah! If you dont want your baby-adoption. We’re adopting probably from Ethiopia, but we are not particular, (it’s just that we’ve aged out of other countries’ programs). (I’m only 48!) I can tell you there are not enough babies to go around to all the couples that want to adopt. This is a fact. Adoption is the best choice. We need more babies to adopt!

  • invalid-0

    “Does a man have the right to impregnate a woman aginst her will” I just keep getting more and more outraged by the male population! Not you in particular. At least you were not afraid to speak the truth.
    Yes this old,old old testament stuff has got to go. we live in a totally different world and the Vatican is not moving with it. You are damn straight men need to get with the program and start putting on the “rain coat” all the time. If not for anything but to protect themselves and their partner!
    How can so many men ignore the the voices of so many for so long????

  • invalid-0

    Did you read any of the citations previously supplied??? Have you done any reading whatsoever?? Probably not- if you did any reading- just on this site alone- then you wouldn’t be asking such a stupid question.
    I will give you a few examples – however, I strongly suggest you do some reading and research into the various issues- you appear pretty uninformed.

    These States allow pharmacists to refuse to dispense birth control:
    Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, and South Dakota. Arizona and North Dakota are also drafting up legislation to allow for pharmacist refusals.

    Here is an article containing examples of just such refusals. Dakota.http://www.plannedparenthood.org/issues-action/birth-control/pharmacy-refusals/reports/refusal-clauses-6544.htm

    Mo. has a constitution which calls an egg a person- thereby questioning the legality of many forms of birth control. ND and Arizona and several other states are trying to pass similar laws.

    The HHS under Bush promulgated a midnight regulation, allowing any health care worker (from janitor to a receptionist to a pharmacist) to refuse to provide birth control.

    And you aren’t even considering how hard it is to obtain BC pills in rural areas where there are few pharmacies-and too bad if you then get a RC pharmacist- with no other accessible pharmacy.

    You’re parochial too- not even considering the difficulties in foreign countries. Like the Phillipines,Italy, Mexico or Africa, foreign countries where the RCC holds a lot more power.
    For example- in the Phillipines:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p07s02-woap.html

    And certainly in Africa where the RCC has campaigned strenuously against use of the condom-and prevented its dissemination to villages,which has led to a devastating epidemic of Aids- even among young childen. and actually.Shall we just tell these poor people- hey- just head right on down to the local Walgreen’s.

    Oh, and then look into statistics on how many pharmacies supply EC. How many pharmaciesd carry EC.

    So your FLIP answer is not only FLIP, it is ignorant, thoughtless and uncaring.

    So before you reply- do your own research-do any research on the issue- because right now you appear pretty darn ignorant on any of these issues- and even more ignorant because you refuse to read the materials and references provided on this iste.

  • invalid-0

    (not that I would be heard because I am female)

    To whom it may concern I am officially leaving the Catholic church. I learned many things but one that stuck out in my mind was Jesus. Of all the men in religion Jesus was the only man who did not discriminate against women. He walked the walk.
    I am a sinner yes, but all my life I have tryed to follow Jesus examples. One in particular “do unto others as you would do unto thyself” What powerful words. The vatican has not followed His teachings. Women are descriminated because of their sex alone. We have been totally ignored. Jesus would not have done that.
    So I am leaving for good to follow Jesus in my own path. To walk the walk as best as I can as an immortal being.

    I urge any man who reads this to walk the walk of the disrcriminated for 1 week and see how it feels before you condemn anyone or discriminate for gender difference.

  • invalid-0

    The Guttmacher Institue has done a study of the barriers present in obtaining birth control. And surprise- they found that ready access to birth control had a significant effect on the rates of abortion.
    But access was indeed difficult-not just due to the factors I have already named , but access was especially difficult among low income women and college age students, who had neither money nor easy access to doctors and prescriptions, nor insurance to cover the significant monthly cost.Due to these issues, the rates of abortions increased significantly among these women.
    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090302.html

    These findings quickly struck a chord in the policy arena. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops immediately issued a press release disclaiming the potential of improved access to contraceptive services to help women avoid unplanned pregnancy and abortion. Ah yes,surprise, surprise.That wonderful church that you belong to, doesn’t see a realtionship between availability of contraceptives and lower abortion rates. It seems so obvious- even to you- that it is astounding that a study is even needed- and even then the Bishops decry it!!

    So, Congress wanted to expand the coverage under Medicare, as well as change a mistake in the Deficit Reduction Act which raised the price of BC to low income women and college students by more that 10 times.

    But so far the Republicans either have or are trying to shoot down these corrections ( and they are budget neutral corrections). These are the same Republicans which have pledged to those same RCC Bishops that they will promote a “culture of life” (read anti contraception).

    So, again,rather than continuing in your ignorance, I suggest that you do your reading.
    There is a wealth of material.There are numerous issues with access to birth control, and of course one just doesn’t walk into the local Walgreens. (If you are aware of any state that has made contraceptives an off the shelf item- why don’t YOU name one?)

    If the Guttmacher Institue material is too difficult, I suggest that you read this summary, explaining all the barriers women face in obtaining access to birth control.

    http://www.protectchoice.org/article.php?id=313

  • invalid-0

    Abortion is something like 20 times safer than childbirth. Pregnancy is an immense drain on the body. Labor is extremely hard. The only way you could consider it “easy” is if you simply consider the woman a flowerpot for a man’s seed, rather than grasp the reality that the woman’s body *builds* the baby.

    Also, no, abortion is not always a “painfull and emotionally charged issue.” Many of us have had, or would have, abortions and have no qualms about it. The idea that abortion is always this traumatic experience is right-wing propaganda.

  • colleen

    "The fact that His Grace was that clueless about ordinary human
    sensibilities causes me to suspect that he is a long way from
    understanding the passage Mt 10:16 Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves."

    A couple of points, if you will bear with me. First this was not limited to the Archbishop, indeed the Vatican has weighed in in the person of Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re who, besides saying that the situation was "sad" says:

     

    “the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated.”

     

    It’s not just one man, it’s the heirarchy of a church which brags that it is not a democracy (and were it a democracy women would not have a vote anyway) They ARE ‘the Catholic perspective’ and the political power of the Catholic Church. 

    I can’t help but object to the fact that the Cardinal neglected entirely to mention the 9 year old rape victim. What about HER life? Surely the Archbishop and Cardinal and the whole Catholic heirarchy understands that she would  have died and, likely, the twins with her had they succeeded in convincing the judge to kill her by forcing her to try to carry twins to term. 

    So, why isn’t her life important enough to even mention? Was she insufficiently innocent? I really do not understand this and I do not understand men and women who accept it or try to rationalize it. How is this ‘pro-life’?

    Likewise, I am honestly shocked that your main criticism of the good Archbishop is that he is clueless about "ordinary human sensibilities" and thus not "shrewd". I would maintain that the real problem is that the Church’s heirarcy in it’s enthusiasm for fetuses failed to recognise or acknowledge that they were intent on killing this child. So they excommunicate her mother and the staff who acted to save her life and not her stepfather who had been raping her for 3 years.

    • paul-bradford

      It’s not just one man, it’s the heirarchy
      You’re certainly right when it comes to the excommunication. The archbishop’s claim is that he didn’t actually make a decision to excommunicate anybody, he simply reminded people that excommunication was ‘automatic’ in the case of abortion. As I said, if he were shrewd he would have kept his mouth shut.
      I can’t help but object to the fact that the Cardinal neglected entirely to mention the 9 year old rape victim. What about HER life?
      You and I are in complete agreement about that. Again, I fault the archbishop for mishandling the situation. The Church has deep compassion for her as well as for her two children. It’s wrong, even creepy, to spend time with the question ‘Is it worse to be raped or worse to be aborted?’
      Speaking of which, he’s continued to dig himself even deeper. According to this report from CNN, Cardoso was interviewed and said "A graver act than (rape) is abortion, to eliminate an innocent life."
      First of all, none of us should be excommunicated based on the gravity of our sins. Great sinners are most in need of grace so the very premise is foolish. But I will repeat — we shouldn’t be asking which is worse, we should be asking "How can we bring justice to an unjust world?" I say that if Brazil is serious about protecting its unborn it should stop relying on criminalization as a tool for stopping abortion. This 1996 report indicates that the abortion rate in Brazil in 1991 was 36.5 per 1000 women of childbearing age. The US rate that year was 26.4. (Rates for both countries have since declined but recent figures for Brazil aren’t available). The state shouldn’t be relying on criminalization and the Church shouldn’t be relying on excommunication or the denying of the sacraments.
      So, why isn’t her life important enough to even mention? Was she insufficiently innocent? I really do not understand this and I do not understand men and women who accept it or try to rationalize it. How is this ‘pro-life’?
      Once again, it’s not the stance of the Church. The stance of the Church is to have compassion for little girls who are raped by their stepfathers. The stance of the Church is to be outraged by the injustice of it and to work to stop it. It’s the idiocy of one man that prevented you and everyone else from seeing that. The archbishop is the one who has trouble keeping two ideas in his head at the same time, it isn’t the fault of Church teaching. Rape is a terrible injustice, abortion is a terrible injustice. In this case the rape clearly led to the abortion so the stepfather must bear some responsibility for the abortion as well as the rape. But — and this was the point of the post — discussions about who’s most at fault oftentimes take us away from the issue of how we can stop injustice.
      You don’t have to choose between being an opponent of abortion and being an opponent of rape. In fact, one way to prevent a goodly number of abortions is to work to prevent rape. There are many, many, many in the Church who agree with me. Read America, read Commonweal, visit Catholics United or Catholic Democrats.
      The Church isn’t monolithic, just as the country isn’t monolithic. We have a right wing and a left wing. There’s a great deal of tension about a number of issues (even though we agree that abortion is immoral we often disagree about the best way to prevent it).
      I am honestly shocked that your main criticism of the good Archbishop is that he is clueless about "ordinary human sensibilities"
      The job of any bishop is to present Catholic teaching in a way that will help people understand and receive the message. He left you with the idea that the Church doesn’t care about little girls who are raped; he left you with the idea that we’re more interested in assigning blame than we are in stopping injustice; you came into the discussion with the idea that the teachings are concocted by celibate old men rather than discerned through revelation — but he simply intensified that idea in you.
      Yep, I point my finger at the fact that he was clueless. The Church has something useful to say that the world could fruitfully accept. The archbishop just doesn’t know how to say it.
      Paul Bradford
      Pro-Life Catholics for Choice

  • invalid-0

    You forget you came from a woman and you started the first six weeks of life as a woman. You are putting yourself down. You are no better than she. GET IT! BIGOT!!

  • truth

    "So I am leaving for good to follow Jesus in my own path." – Anonymous

     

    Wow. So how does one follow Jesus in their own path? Wouldn’t this be following your own path. You probably meant to say you are going to follow Jesus on Jesus’ path because I don’t think he is following you, right? Remember His will be done; not your own. Keep in mind that you are leaving Jesus’ Church that he created here on Earth as an extension of his Kingdom in Heaven – so who’s path are you following again? Also, if I’m not mistaken our Mother – Mary – is the Mother of God! I don’t think you can get any higher on the Spiritual Heirarchy than this. No, the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that men and women are equal – quite the contrary – women are closer to God in the creation of human life than men will ever be. Men are regarded as Spiritual Head of the Household because we are more Intellectually Intelligent and women are more Emotionally Intelligent. Jesus talks a lot in the Bible about not trusting your heart because your heart (feelings) can betray you, and men (being less emotional) can intellectualize their emotions thereby putting their emotions aside to make tough decisions in emotional situations. It’s basic. This is the same reason men are better in War and other highly emotionally charged situations.

    • invalid-0

      Men like you, who obsessively post ranting comments all over this blog? Anger is an emotion, but apparently that doesn’t count because it’s an acceptable emotion for men to have.

      Incidentally, I don’t see one iota of your “Intellectual Intelligence.” You do little but threaten people with the wrath of your imaginary deity and spew sexist nonsense with no basis in science. Any of the female bloggers at this site is by far your superior in terms of intellect.

    • invalid-0

      Listen to you judging me again!!! Who the HELL do you think you are God? Ok truth you are a LIE!! STOP JUDGING PEOPLE YOU ARE NOT NOT NOT GOD OK CREEP DEVIL PERSON ???
      That was my own personal feeling about Jesus and you defiled it!!!!! Go to hell you moron!!!!

  • truth

    Is there any bigger oxymoron than Pro-Life Catholics for Choice? Paul, just in case you didn’t know – Pro-Life & Pro-Choice are mutally exclusive and therefore cannot share the same space. You are luke-warm Paul and God hates luke-warm people. Either be hot or cold, but not luke-warm. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot negotiate with terrorists. I know, you’re different, you can meet them on their turf and they’ll see things your way if you lead with Love! Paul, God isn’t dripping with love buddy. Love isn’t always playing the nice guy, Paul. In fact, love – real true honest love – is usually pretty tough and seemingly harsh to those who are involved with major sin. Hot or cold. Not both. God likes a gambler, Paul. Put all your chips in or take them out, but don’t play peacemaker – it’s boring to Him.

    • invalid-0

      YOU NEVER GET IN THE WAY OF A PERSON AND THEIR FAITH NEVER. YOU ARE AN EVIL PERSON!

    • invalid-0

      You do not stand in the way or make fun of someones faith with God because you are NOT GOD. You have not learned anything except how to be a sinner. Eat #%^&!

  • invalid-0

    Lets look at the logic of this. The outcome of sex is having a baby (reproduction). You know that having a baby is a potentially dangerous activity. You don’t like the idea of having to go through this dangerous activity. I know a way to get out of it! Don’t have sex until you are prepared to accept the consequences! How many women actually are in danger of dieing if the carry a baby to term? Not very many. How many babies die every day from abortion? I’ve lost track, was it 3000? You have the right to choose to have sex, to use contraception and be careful. Accidents happen. Accept some responsibility women.

    • invalid-0

      Logically, you need to take your “responsibility” message to the guys. Tell them to wear a rubber every single time they have sex. Tell them to know exactly how to put it on and to remove it. Tell them that there is absolutely no room for error. Are there records on the number of men who have to be prodded or forced to take responsiblity for children they made? There are definitely more than 3000 a day. Do you even have the cajones to have this discussion with guys? And if you could have a discussion, can it be discussed without ego-boosting bull like, “Well we have to protect the weaker sex, and they need us to take leadership on this issue”? How about, “Hey guys, man up. Take responsiblity for your sperm. No excuses for broken rubbers. Or don’t have sex.” If you don’t piss them off or have your manhood challeneged, mazal tov, baby. Do you realize how many unplanned pregnancies could be avoided if guys manned up? Get busy, dude. You got some preachin’ to do … somewhere else.

  • invalid-0

    Anon you are a piece of work. Just because you manage to find yourself a pharmicist who will not distribute birth control doesn’t mean you have to go to him. To answer your question I live in Massachusetts and you just walk into any pharmacy and condoms are there on the shelf. I’m still dying to hear about this U.S. state which has a policy preventing adults fom purchasing birth control, certainly no sign of it on the Guttmacher Institute’s site. And now you’re mad at me because I haven’t solved every problem in Africa? You are so far to the radical left on this you can’t even see the center.

  • mellankelly1

    Accidents happen  Accept some responsibility women

    It is every bit as responsible to terminate ones pregnancy as it would be to gestate ones pregnancy… how you (or I) feel about either choice does not alter the responsibility of that choice.

  • mellankelly1

    …God hates luke-warm people

    Oh my… what a lovely sentiment.  A God who "hates" people.  A God who is plagued by the emotions of Man.  You go ahead and hold onto that real tight dear… it’s all yours.

  • invalid-0

    I suggest you learn to read.It is obvious you cannot do so.

  • invalid-0

    PS I also suggest that you- the one trying to be a “perfect” Catholic- go harrangue your Church- it is certainly a piece of work.Your support for that misogynist hypocritical even evil insitution is ignorant-and it makes you part of the problem doesn’t it that is where we started.
    As Truth has demonstrated- there is no middle ground for “real” Catholics.

    • invalid-0

      You and truth devil person can kiss my ass with your evil garbage YOU ARE NOT GOD LEAVE US ALONE!! Go pray in your PHONY CHURCH with your phony ideoligies you are not welcom here when you condemn someones beliefs like Truthliar did.
      Have an awful day.

  • invalid-0

    Oh, yes. (Your) God forbid that Christians play the role of peacemaker. Wasn’t Jesus the “Prince of Peace”?
    God, save me … from your people.

  • invalid-0

    May I unemotionally and rationally inform you that you’re a sexist. But that’s obvious to most logical human beings. Your emotional and irrational conclusion that men are superior in rationality is unproveable. And men have done an awful job in prosecuting most wars. Besides, wars are anti-life. Bub-bye.

  • invalid-0

    Sweetheart, again I never said I was anything near a perfect Catholic. I’m sure I’ve never met one. And where do you get off calling my church “misogynist, hypocritical and evil and ignorant”? And since when is “Truth” your theological mentor? Why would I want to harrangue my church? Are you harranguing your church? Why do I have a feeling that if I was Muslim you’d be breaking your neck to show some sensitivity? Oh and whenever you get the chance please do let me know about that U.S. state where adults cannot purchase their own birth control.

  • invalid-0

    Ah dear heart in all sarcasm

    And now you show your true colors-

    The RCC is hypocritical, ignorant, discrimatory and yes EVIL

    Ah, let the little 9 year old die- for what? Evil old men sitting in Rome??? In wealth and luxury??
    Let the little 9 year old die- to protect the dogma of a church that has killed millions though the years?

    Ah yes, THAT church

    Like I said- you can’t read- either that or you are simply too ignorant to do any research.
    Why don’t you just toddle on off to mass and drink some more of that cool aid?

    Good bye, I refuse to engage with your ignorance any more.

  • invalid-0

    Gee there’s a shocker and just when I was about to get the name of that state too.

  • invalid-0

    The girl’s situation was not as described above. Her mother transfered her out of the first hospital , IMIP and sent her to another one after the specialists at the first hospital said that her life and health were NOT threatened. She could safely carry the child to term and give birth through C section. The Church’s position against abortion is upsetting to some, but they would not oppose an abortion in a case where a woman’s life was threatened by continuing the pregnancy. This was simply not one of those cases, despite the horrors surrounding her pregnancy. The church also called for the rapist to be punished and both the rapist ( who is out of communion with the church) and those excommunicated ( something that happens automatically in the case of abortion)can re-enter communion with the church through the sacrament of reconciliation.

    • invalid-0

      Please develop some reading comprehension skills. This little girl was 9 years old and only 80 pounds. She would have difficulty carrying ONE conceptus to term. Twins nearly kill thousands of fully developed, adult human females in the U.S. alone. There is an infinitesimal likelihood that either she or the fetuses would have survived had she attempted to carry to term.

      John, you are either a liar or are misinformed. I’m going with “liar” because I’ve had far too much experience with your kind.

  • invalid-0

    I call BS, John. First, give us the cite. Then, we will explore the claim that a 9 year old weighing 80 lbs carrying twins is not at risk for her life, health and future.

  • invalid-0

    let’s see this citation
    And let’s see evidence that these doctors said an 80 pound 9 year old would survive physically
    Actually, it really doesn’t matter does it? The second opinion ( do you ever get a second medical opinion John?) thought she would not survive.

    I can’t imagine letting my 9 year old daughter go through child birth- for what???
    And boy oh boy John- I would wish this on you or yours.

  • invalid-0

    even if it were true, who’s to say the doctors at the first hospital were competent?

    As for “re-entering communion with the church,” the mother and daughter are well shut of that poisonous institution, regardless of what its sheeplike apologists (look in the mirror, John) want to believe.

  • colleen

    "The Church’s position against abortion is upsetting to some, but they
    would not oppose an abortion in a case where a woman’s life was
    threatened by continuing the pregnancy."

     

    First Good Lord, whatever are you thinking making arguments like this? First of all, she is not a woman, she is a 9 year old girl. Second, this is precisely what the Church did do and has done right along. They even argued against the abortion in court. Third,even if your uncited story is true  anyone with an ounce of medical knowledge and a gram of common sense recognises that 80 lb, 9 year old girls (3rd grade in the US) do not have the physical maturity to carry one child to term, much less twins.  Contrary to the apparent opinions of far too many ‘pro-life’ men, pregnancy is a tremendous strain on the body of even a physically mature woman. It’s simply impossible top argue that an 80lb 3rd grade girl can carry twins to term without endangering her life and unbelievably cruel to force her to suffer in this manner. Let me remind you that the pregnancy was discovered because she was considferable pain in her 4th month of pregnancy and so her mother took her to the hospital.

    This is the result of a morality which CLEARLY and consistently values potential life over the lives and wellbeing of any female who is physically able to  concieve.Are all of you folks in a state of constant denial? Because it’s just astonishing to me how much the defenders deny what the Vatican has been saying for decades.

     

  • invalid-0

    Not to worry, Colleen…surely the child would be given NARCOTICS to ease the pain…

    Good #U@%^*& Lord!

  • colleen

    "He left you with the idea that the Church doesn’t care about little girls who are raped;"

    No, he and the Vatican left me with the idea that the Church devalues anyone female and they left me with that perception long ago. They’re quite clear about it, they will always choose potential life over the  life, well being, conscience and will of any female who is able to conceive, Catholic or not. Every time.The youth of this girl and the circumstances of her conception serve to underline how myopic and grotesque their peculiar morality is when played out in real life..

    In the post above you keep assuring me that the Church feels compassion for this child.I would point out that nothing the Vatican or the Archbishop said or or did conveyed the slightest hint of compassion for the girl. Indeed they dehumanized her and threatened her life.Then they excommunicated the people who worked to save her life. This is not compassion and it’s not poorly handled PR. Compassion isn’t something you say you feel when you want others to grant you spiritual authority and actively seeking to force a 9 year old girl to carry twins to term is not compassion, it’s not loving and it’s.not moral.

    I would also note that the essential question for me wasn’t ‘which is worse, rape or abortion?" (although, God knows, they’re wrong about that too) but, rather, ‘why are these men trying to force a little girl to do something she is physically incapable of doing? why are they trying to kill her?" There was nothing ‘just’ about any of the heirarchy’s  actions in this. They were, in their own way, as cruel and dehumanizing as the stepfather.(who also, and most importantly, bears responsibility for directly endangering the life of this little girl)

    Thank you for your long and thoughtful reply.

  • invalid-0

    Lose the idea that women/girls/ children exist as breeding stock for YOUR desire for a baby. Do it now.

  • invalid-0

    I believe you misspelled “Catholic”. You need to put an “h” and an “o” in there, and take out that horrible “k”. It’s so unsightly.

    Yes, the Alaskan sins were very bad. There are people who do bad things. It was and is a terrible black smear on the good work of God’s mercy. It was terrible.

    The institution, however, was founded by the Creator of the entire existance, so I don’t see it leaving in a few decades, especially after 2000 years, and 1 billion members.
    Sorry, old chap.

    • invalid-0

      You are truly thick. The RCC was created by Paul, who was neither an apostle nor even a contemporary of Jesus…You might want to try actually reading and applying basic critical analysis to your own holy book before spouting off such inanity.

  • invalid-0

    Actually, I was thinking of fathers. If fathers help women more, we would’nt want abortion so much. What do you you think?

  • therealistmom

    … until now.

     To be blunt, I call bullshit.

     NO physician worth the paper their degree is printed on would ever say an 80 pound, 9 year old LITTLE GIRL could safely carry a twin pregnancy. Full grown adult women can be at risk from a multiple pregnancy, that is why they are commonly monitored by a perinatologist. I have three children, whom I had at the peak of my childbearing years- age 20, 23, and 26. I had what could be considered easy pregnancies (even with my middle child, who was found to have Down syndrome after her birth). Even with these easy pregnancies as an adult woman there were inherent risks. The species Homo sapiens has evolved in such a manner, selecting for the size of the brain case and body over ease of delivery, that there are a myriad of issues that can occur. This is a diagram of how a woman’s organs are displaced in pregnancy: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uvyXF1ybcMo/SRtGNB_xKEI/AAAAAAAAAqQ/Xy7tjJHpkD4/s1600-h/Pregnancy-2.jpg

    Now, let’s think of this in the body of a prepubescent 9 year old girl (having menses does not mean she has developed physically, particularly at that age and 80 lbs). She would be carrying TWO fetuses, having to gain a minimum of probably another third of her body weight to ensure their growth. Her still-growing organs would be shoved aside as in the diagram, unable to complete the work of  maturing. All of her body’s resources that would normally go into growing and maturing would be siphoned off to care for the fetuses, as pregnancy strains a mature woman’s body nutritionally, even leeching calcium from her bones- what is that going to do to a LITTLE GIRL? For f***’s sake, she is not a walking uterus! She has already been violated for years physically and mentally yet it’s supposed to be "safe" for her to shove out a couple of units because someone’s sky-daddy supposedly says those clumps of cells are worth more than she is.

    Here is a story of a five and a half year old girl who gave birth…  http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp .You look at that little girl who miraculously survived her ordeal and tell me that is a good freaking idea. Actually, please don’t… you will probably think it was justified. Maybe she was even a whore or something. 

     

  • invalid-0

    Now, now Realist Mom…swallow your unchristian, misguided feminist anger, and feel the Godly love here. I’m sure John has a credible and medically verifiable cite for his contentions.

  • invalid-0

    I’ve taken it up with god- she loves me, I’m her creation, and she trusts me to do the right thing-honestly – she told me so.
    I don’t need the catholic church, you or anyone else telling me what god wants.
    So put that in your church dogma and smoke it.

  • invalid-0

    A bit messianic don’t you think? Comparing yourself to Jesus.
    Well good luck with that.

  • invalid-0

    You selfish, self absorbed, narcissitic SOB
    Go get a brood mare

  • therealistmom

    I just must have lost my poor womanly little head over the whole thing. It’s that time of the month you know, and it just makes me even more irrational than I already am. I’ll go read some Bible verses on how a woman should be humble and let the menfolk make the decisions and wait for John to come back and educate us about the medical issues that I can’t possibly comprehend without a man’s guiding hand.

  • invalid-0

    Stop arguing with your betters
    :>)

  • invalid-0

    Someone in the Catholic church hierarchy. He is a mysogonist, and hates women’s autonomy. Women to him, are for birthing children (money) into the Catholic Church, hence his anti-womwn views. He cares nothing for women, and has no respect for them, just like the Vatican doesn’t and the Bishops, Friars, Monks. They are the religion of woman hating. Women are nothing but a womb to them, and if a woman has sex outsdide of their sanctioned realm (marriage) then she should pay for it by becoming pregnant with a child that she doesn’t want, and forced to carry it to term and take care of it, as a badge of her dishonor, for the rest of her life. Truth, it is never going to happen again. We will not go to backalleys, we will not stop using birth control to suit you desire for control and domination over the lives of women. You have no business here. We are women who are in control and enlightened, aware, and becoimg even more aware and in control every day. Too bad for you and your ilk.

  • sayna

    Don’t you guys have a rule about lying? I guess technically it’s about not bearing false witness, but that’s widely interpreted as not lying. You statement about emergency contraception is either intetnionally inaccurate (lying) or uninformed. I don’t know which would worry me more.

    Emergency contraception is not the same as abortion. One of the warnings/instructions on Plan B is not to take it if you are already pregnant, because it will not work! Abortion, by definition, is the termination of a pregnancy, and Plan B does not do this. Plan B, like all hormonal contraceptives, works to prevent fertilization and may (although it has not been proven) prevent implantation. Implantation is the beginning of a pregnancy, not conception. It makes absolutely no sense to say that pregnancy begins before implantation because no physical change happens to the woman’s body before then.

    As for your personal philosophy on birth control, I feel sorry for you for feeling like barrier and hormonal methods are distrustful and disrespectful. Most people see it as a way to respect their partner’s health and safety. I can’t help but laugh at your hypocritical support of the rhythm method, either. By making any attempt at all to prevent pregnancy you are not being open to the possibility of creating new life. You’re also having sex when the uterine lining cannot support a fertilized egg, thus taking a higher risk of flushing out a fertilized egg than if you were to use the pill or condoms.

  • invalid-0

    Not at all. Jesus said “Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me”. So if he identifies with me, I can identify with him. That’s what friends do.
    And thank you for the good luck.

    • invalid-0

      I’m not even going to sugarcoat this for your obviously fragile ego: To believe that an insensate cluster of barely differentiated person is more important than a living, breathing, thinking woman is completely asinine.

      In short, you are a moron for believing something so ignorant.

  • invalid-0

    where you came from, a Women. You were a woman for the first six weeks of your life. Proven scientifically. So that means that you are putting yourself down you are no better than she. lol,lol,lol

  • invalid-0

    OK, OK. Looking over my original email, it does seem a bit strident, even if true. It’s pretty easy to have the emotions fired up on these topics. I happen to love the RCC, even though it is in continual need of improvement. It’s always been that way, but it keeps improving. But if you look around this web site, you certainly come away feeling barraged by anti-Catholic slander. No question about it, there are few fair assessments of religion here. Since that is the case, does anyone know where I can find info on women’s rights, sexuality education, contraception, access to abortion, STI/HIV/AIDS, maternal health, etc. that is not RCC-phobic?

  • invalid-0

    Unfortunately- it is the RCC fanatics which bring their religion into this and onto this site- trying to force it down the throat of everyone else.
    Everyone here generally feels that you may believe what you want- just don’t force it on us, don’t try to make laws enforcing your beliefs, don’t threaten our democratic/republican processes with threats from god or Rome etc. etc.
    Believe what you want, but don’t force it on us. That seems fair. This is not a religious site, it is for a discussion of women’s reproductive health issues.
    Here is a site that I found very interesting and fair with a good discussion of the various issues and how various groups view those issues.
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/abortion.htm

  • invalid-0

    Ok, I’ll give you a little. I was trying to be brief and to the point, so I did’nt go into details. Yes, that morning after pill works in multiple ways, and one way is to prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. But that is a human life, no changes to the mother are needed. We grow test tube babies, dont we? If there is no chance for that conception to gestate, it is then an abortion.
    While it is also my opinion, I became aware of the dynamics of artificial birth control through the teaching of the Church, just like I became aware of my responsibilities to society, and myself through the church. I like to study topics from learned people, and schools of thought, since they have been at this a hell of a lot longer than myself.
    Now with the “Roman Roulette” method of birth control, it DOES leave open the possibility of life, hence the nickname. AND, it is really only to be employed for fairly serious reasons, like financial difficulty, family size management, or other serious hardship. It is not supposed to used simply for selfish reasons or convienience. That’s because one of the great reasons marriage exists, is for bringing up children. I was not trying to lie. But I’m not an expert. That’s why I study learned peoples’ stuff.

  • invalid-0

    On the contrary, this site is about women’s issues, and family issues and reproductive issues. All these topics involve values, rights, responsibilities– anything related to the humanities and social circles!! Religion is a part of all this, because it is the foundation of most people’s belief systems. I’m not ramming anything down anyones’ throat. I’m holding up a strongly felt set of views which is the purpose of these sites– the exchange of ideas and viewpoints. This site is democratic, it does not discriminate based on gender, race , sexual orientation, or religious viewpoint. You can take my views, or leave them. But if you discriminate against me, because of the color of my skin, or because I might be a woman, then you are no better than the people you dispise. This is America, and all are welcome to participate in the process, the voting booth, lobbying, letter writing, blogging. This site is not just for men. Or African Americans and Jewish people. It’s so we can say what we think about issues that not remain isolated, closed up, and narrow. Stand up for rights!
    Everyones’ voice needs to be heard, not snuffed, eh?

  • invalid-0

    YIP was complaining about people on this site discussing and critisizing the RCC. (Actually he called it bashing I believe- but that’s just his perspective).
    You have just confirmed what I said- the RCCers are the ones that keep bringing the RCC and their religion to this site and try to shove it down everyone’s throat.
    You are certainly welcome to the discussion, but then don’t complain about the responses critisizing the RCC -like YIP did.
    Can’t have it both ways.

  • invalid-0

    Where can I find one of these brood mares?
    Actually, I think you are being harsh. My wife and I dont think of women as “brood mares”. We cannot have children, and when we went looking into the possibiliy of adoption, we were shocked to discover long wait periods, and few children in need of parents. Some countries wont adopt out their children for various reasons, and most have serious restrictions. We’ve been waiting 1 1/2 years. Here in the U.S. there are very few women who are condidering giving their child a home to adoptive parents. I dont think it is discussed as an option enough. You know, children are not a diseased parasite. If a woman becomes pregnant, she is not sick–but if she needs help, there are agencies to help her , and if adoption is an option she’d like to explore, then by all means she should. There are lots of couples who would like to give that child a good home.
    You know , pregnancy is not a bad word.

    • invalid-0

      There are literally hundreds of thousands of children languishing this very moment in state and foster care, in need of loving parents. Maybe god is trying to tell you that you should adopt one or more of them, rather than the cute little baby that might (maybe) pass as your own. Oh, but they’ve committed a grave sin, apparently…They are no longer cute little babies.

      It is no woman’s job to make babies for anyone, especially absolute strangers, to fulfill their fantasies of owning a cute little baby. That would be slavery, which went out a long time ago, in case you forgot.

      If there is a benevolent deity, may She never let such thoughtless, myopic, egotistical people such as you and your wife adopt ANY child.

  • invalid-0

    Actually, I’ve never been to this site before yesterday. I didnt know others noticed the same thing I did. Sure, using words like BIGOT(all upper case), EVIL, etc. classify as “bashing”, especially since the RCC isnt trying to be these things. It could be a communication problem, or it could be bashing. I noticed it.
    Now of course I can complain about the responses if I disagree, or see error, which I do. Of course I can. And I can say what I wish, this is a public forum.
    Again, the views of the RCC, and my views can be aired here on the subjects of women’s rights, reproductive issues, religious views regarding abortion (it’s the subject of one of the main articles) without having it called “shoving it down our throats”. Please. Enough with the “bashing”. But I have to stop now, I’ve spent too much time tapping these silly plastic square things. It’s nice outside, and life is short, relatively. We should go get a coffee and listen to the birds.

  • invalid-0

    Perhaps I was being harsh, perhaps not.
    Your post -more babies to adopt- certainly didn’t come off very well did it? And I would suggest that you still seem to have an attitude that women should have babies so there are more of them to adopt.
    And children as parasites, pregnancy as bad word? Who said that?
    The fact that you have been waiting for 1 1/2 years- that is too bad-and I wish you luck in your quest- but it is not a reason for other women to have babies.
    So, I’m convincing myself- I wasn’t being harsh.

  • invalid-0

    Excellent reporting, John. I have not checked the facts, but they have the ring of truth about them . Thanks for the clear and concise picture to break through all this muckraking. But some of it is funny , no? Especially when it starts to go over the top and you can hear the spitting, stammering, cussing as they tap furiously! A little frightening, but again, thanks for the fresh air.

  • invalid-0

    Call it what you like-posters on this site will continue to critisize the views of the Church and object to the attempt to impose their religious views on the rest of us.

    Freedom of speech applies to all of us-so you come on here and talk about religion all you want- but if you do so, then you better grow up and deal with the critism.

  • colleen

    "I have not checked the facts"

    Neither had he. Had he done so he would have noticed that the 80 lb, 9 year old 3rd grade girl was carrying twins rather than the one child his entirely fictional ‘specialist’ cites.

    "Especially when it starts to go over the top and you can hear the spitting, stammering, cussing as they tap furiously!"
     

    Because, of course, little 3rd grade girls make the best gestation devices,particularly for twins and particularly in the last  5 months when they can hardly move. Their deaths are so entertaining. Have you  no common sense and basic decency?

  • invalid-0

    You’re trying to be too cute by half and it’s not working. Your hypocrisy is laughably transparent. You are acting like a smart-a%$ toddler that thinks they are smarter than everyone else. You have been provided with more than enough links, information, direction to your questions (challenges) and if you just look around this site, you’ll find even more information. Please don’t insult our intelligence by playing these games. We’re in the middle of a serious discussion and if you can’t handle it, just lurk.

  • invalid-0

    I think you’re being too kind.
    :<)

  • invalid-0

    A man and a woman should have sex inside of marriage. They should not withhold themselves from each other, by using barriers, especially in the act designed for the most intimate contact, and also the transmission of life. God invented sex.

    Oh, please. Not everyone believes the same religious stuff you do, you know. I don’t believe we, or sex, were designed at all, especially since there’s so much evidence to the contrary. you can believe what you want and have whatever kind of sex you want, but please stop pushing your god bullshit on everyone else.

  • invalid-0

    The learned people from your church are steeped in patrarchy and an obsession with controlling people–especially women. I learn from both educated and less educated people. Everybody has his or her stories that need to be told. I usually discount the prescribed stories dictated by patriarchial institutions. Since Jesus said absolutely nothing about abortion specifically and he’s supposed to be the god of the RCC and since abortion had already been around through the use of herbs, then I’m certainly not going to listen to an organization run by a bunch of guys. We live in a secular nation with a secular constitution. You may listen to those guys, but I don’t. It’s not about selfishness, it’s about adhering to what I believe to be true, and I have sound ethical underpinnings to back up my truth. If RCC women should not have abortions or protect themselves from STIs and pregnancies, then that’s their choice.

  • invalid-0

    Excellent condescension toward those with whom you disagree. And you excellently butt-kissed John. It was funny. If you’re frightened, then take your contempt somewhere else, dude. We’ll be okay without your supervising us.

  • invalid-0

    yeah, screw her, let her die…What were the odds the baby have made it to be born alive? I saw the news report, the girl was about 84 pounds, tiny. Shouldn’t saving her life be a worthwhile goal?

    This is a publicity stunt for Catholic Church authorities, like Terri Shaivo was for the Religious Right here a couple years ago–screw the best interests of the actual human being, but force the ideological point.

    Too often, the Catholic hierarchy’s concern for life ends at birth. Maybe it’s because they know the unborn don’t hate them yet. If the Catholic Church becomes a fringe movement by the end of this century, or even in 30 years, I would not be surprised. Doing it to themselves.

    So glad I left.

    • invalid-0

      If the Catholic Church becomes a fringe movement by the end of this century, or even in 30 years, I would not be surprised.

      It’s certainly my pipedream. Not likely to happen, though…I’m not surprised at the mental gymnastics/cognitive dissonance displayed by the devout Catholic set to which we’ve been subjected so far. What is interesting is the complete lack of input from the liberal Catholic set. It’s been the same way on every pro-choice/feminist board to which I belong and to which a good number of liberal Catholics also belong…I guess it’s easier to simply ignore such evil rather than confront and be forced by conscience to reject an institution that you’ve become comfortable with?

  • invalid-0

    Birth control can fail, even in this country.

  • invalid-0

    Women have the Right to choose….

    If a Bunch of Nasty men have any bitch then they can take EVERY child born and make sure they have everything they need (No not in an Orphans home, They need to take care of the babies!)
    I find it Funny that people fight so hard for the fetus but wont fight for women who are being raped and abused.

    • invalid-0

      No, no, no, you silly female. It’s FAR better to force womyn to create piles of human beings they can’t possibly care for and leave them to a cruel/uncertain fate (like lizards do) rather than nip their development in the bud by electively terminating a pregnancy. It’s okay when God does it (as happens in 50% of fertilizations/conceptions) because he’s Master of the Universe and it’s beautiful when he kills and tortures people. An abomination, of course, when women decide that potential people just shouldn’t come to fruition right now. And, hey, we’ll need that rugrat to kill some A-rabs in 18 years!

  • invalid-0

    I was far too kind when I called the RCC hypocritical and misogynist, when what I believe is that the “Church” is one of the most evil institutions created by man.

  • invalid-0

    Couldn’t agree more. I considered the RCC to be Satan at age 10. *tiny violin playing* as we hear more whining about “Catholic/Christian persecution.” Apparently, not being able to shove your retarded beliefs down everyone’s collective throats, regardless of their beliefs, is exactly like being thrown into an arena with hungry lions. *eyeroll*