Catholic Extremists Swift-Boat Sebelius


Are you a "fake" Catholic? Don’t worry, the majority of Catholics
are. That’s at least according to the religious right which has taken to
doling out titles like "alleged Catholic." The most recent Catholic to
earn the epithet is Kathleen Sebelius – current Governor of Kansas and
Obama’s choice for Secretary of HHS. Her nomination has drawn fire from
right wing Catholic groups including the Catholic League and the American Life League, which refer to her as an "alleged Catholic."  After Catholics United came to her defense, Life News, an "anti-abortion" online news site, labeled it "fake Catholic."

According to these extremists, to be a "real" Catholic one must
agree with the U.S. Bishops, and through them, the Vatican, on every
issue, but especially on abortion. Kathleen Sebelius is pro-choice, as
are the majority of U.S. Catholics. But Bishops who don’t live in the
real world where people juggle complicated lives, are free to be moral
scolds. For these doctrinal purists, you’re either with us or against
us. And lately the Bishops enemy’s list grows: John Kerry and recently Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden, among the high value targets. And so they oppose Sebelius who the archbishop of Kansas City said should refrain from receiving communion.

The sad irony is that the Bishops end up in cahoots with pro-life
extremists who shun even those fighting to reduce the number of
unintended pregnancies. Sebelius, for instance, while pro-choice, has
achieved many of the goals the pro-life community supposedly endorses.
While Governor she has focused on preventing unwanted pregnancy,
resulting in a dramatic 10% decline in abortion rates during her time
in office. (Genuine pro-lifers, those who actually seek to lower
abortion rates, will find much in her record to commend.)

But results matter little for the religious right, and so they wage
war on her nomination to head the Department of Health and Human
Services (and on any group that supports her).  No matter that she
expanded access to adoption and provided pregnancy support for
low-income women. No matter that Sebelius has a nuanced view of
abortion, one that differentiates between personal morality and public
necessity. Sebelius says, "Personally I believe abortion is wrong.
However, I disagree with the suggestion that criminalizing women and
their doctors is an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing
the number of abortions in our nation." Sebelius may well be an
interesting figure for the times. She appears to understand both sides
of this fierce struggle, and, better than most, might be able to push
ahead a common ground approach. This is among the qualities that makes
her a particularly important candidate for this important job.

It should come as no surprise that the locked-in-a-time-capsule
groups attacking Sebelius are the very same resisting every effort to
reach common ground. They appear too invested in their struggle to
actually embrace solutions. But their very resistance may have advanced
the common ground case, which has been swept in with President Obama.
The attacks on Sebelius has prompted the nascent common ground movement
to take a step together. Both sides have come together to defend her.
The pro-choice side welcomes Sebelius. Leading Christian leaders
"dedicated to common ground solutions to reduce the number of abortions
in America" spoke out today via press release stating,

"[Sebelius] is a Democratic Governor who has been elected by wide
margins in a state where registered Republicans outnumber Democrats two
to one. Her nomination has already won not only the support of
Democrats, but also praise from Republican pro-life senators such as
Sam Brownback and Pat Roberts and governors such as Sonny Perdue of
Georgia. Her record and her relationships with leaders in both parties
are proof that pro-choice and pro-life leaders can work together to
advance a pro-family agenda."


And yet, in a relentless, ad hominen attack, the religious right
dwells on circumstantial connections, hoping to imply dark motives.
Kathleen Sebelius once stood in a room with an abortion provider who
won, in a fundraising auction, a chance to meet her. Seems guilt by
acquaintance is the right’s new cudgel, so be careful who you Facebook
friend.

For Sebelius’ upcoming Senate confirmation hearing, the religious
right has chosen Senator Tom Coburn as its hatchet man. Coburn is the
redmeat  "pro-lifer," the kind with a decidedly pro-death streak: he’s
called for abortion providers to get the death penalty, leads campaigns
against the condom (in doing so he also held up legislation that helped
uninsured women dying of cancer pay for treatment) and opposes the
cancer-preventing HPV vaccine among other career highlights. (Even
though he’s a Baptist, on these points, Coburn qualifies as a "real"
Catholic.)

If falling in line with the US Bishops is a requirement for being a
"real" Catholic, that’s bad news for Catholics, as well as for the
Church which, on this issue, seems to ever more devoutly move to the
fringe of American life. According to a poll of Catholic voters
taken by Catholics for a Free Choice in the 2008 election, 73% say
Catholic politicians should be under no religious obligation to vote on
issues the way the bishops recommend. And like Sebelius, the majority
of Catholics are pro-choice (58%). They vehemently disagree with the
Church on birth control – the church opposes every form but the
as-ineffective-as-it-is-unpopular natural family planning.  In
fact, three-quarters of Catholics want health insurance plans to cover
contraception. Nearly 80% of Catholics oppose pharmacists who refuse to
fill birth control prescriptions. A comfortable majority, 64%, oppose
abstinence-only education, another favorite of the moralizing bishops,
and their activist enablers. Based on these numbers, the Church might
want to reconsider its campaign to deny  pro-choice Catholic public
officials the eucharist. The Church may refer to pro-choice politicians
as extremists but the majority of Catholic congregants agree with
pro-choice politicians like Sebelius on every one of these issues.

Sebelius thus represents the mainstream view of Catholic believers.
And so the Catholic clergy and its political arm, the so-called
‘anti-abortion" movement, misleads and incites. It creates a
caricature. This may be effective with some, but they are fewer and
fewer. Indeed, deriding moderate politicians like Sebelius marks the
Church as out of step with the majority of Catholics. The Church has
been reduced to focusing on issues that most Catholics, and most
Americans, no longer consider most important, if they ever did.

In the last election, abortion didn’t even make it in the top ten
on the list of Catholic voters’ priorities. Instead, the most important
issues for Catholic Americans were, in order of importance: improving
the nation’s economy; protecting the US from terrorism; resolving the
war in Iraq; making health care more affordable; and protecting social
security. The Church has been noticeably absent in the public discourse
on these issues making its rabid attacks on even moderate pro-choice
officials seems all the more extraneous. (Those who would argue that
Catholic hospitals help make healthcare more affordable by offering
charity care should know that a study
showed that non-sectarian hospitals were three times more likely to
provide charity care than religious hospitals–the bulk of which are
Catholic.)

Meanwhile, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops returns to the
same well. As Time magazine exposed last week, it has been staging a
massive campaign against a non-existent abortion bill–a costly and
useless campaign intended to foment anger among the trusting faithful.
Campaigning against a fictional bill instead of focusing on the
real-life struggles of ever-more-pressured Americans.  (And, while
fiddling with the sex lives of Americans, the Bishops have failed to
tend to their own business. A survey
by researchers at Villanova University found 85 percent of Roman
Catholic dioceses responding had recently discovered embezzlement of
church money. One in Delray Beach, Fla., involved two priests who spent
$8.6 million on trips to Las Vegas, dental work, property taxes and
other expenses over four decades.)

With campaigns like the one against Sebelius, the Catholic right
wing is succeeding at making the Church less and less relevant to the
majority of the faithful. But then perhaps the church realizes the deep
danger to the religious right posed by the rise of Catholic moderates
like Sebelius. 

Like this story? Your $10 tax-deductible contribution helps support our research, reporting, and analysis.

To schedule an interview with Cristina Page please contact Communications Director Rachel Perrone at rachel@rhrealitycheck.org.

  • invalid-0

    If a stove is hot, and you refuse to believe it, the truth of the hot stove does not change. If you believe it or not, abortion–the murder of an innocent, is “always” and in every case a grave evil. Life issues are to be the foundational issue for every Catholic.

    An ad hominen attack is one in which outside issues are brought to the fore, rather than the topic. In your case this would be polls, disagreements, etc., rather than the support–or non support–of those who veto bills which lessen the opportunities of tearing a baby limb from limb from the mother’s womb and call themselves “Catholic”.

    The “job” of priests and bishops–in case you do not know–is our “eternal” life. Therefore both should be speaking out more, rather than less, on subjects that will determine our eternity. Every time we vote for a pro abort candidate, or law, without proportionate reason, we commit “grave sin” and our salvation is in jeopardy. Proportionate reason is a moral principle that one may employ to determine objectively and concretely the rightness or wrongness of actions. What is proportionate to the murder of 4,000 babies every day (procured abortions) in the USA alone? This number does not even begin to touch the chemical abortions–caused by birth control or morning after pill.

    The governor has been directed to refrain from receiving Holy Communion–grave sin and scandal (scandal action which can lead others to sin). “Any” Catholic who does not believe Church teaching should not present for communion. There is good news. Those in disagreement are not forced to remain in the Church–you know, separation of Church and State. There are over 33,000 faith traditions, most in agreement with all you espouse. Why not be “honest” and join one of them rather than call yourself Catholic?

    Please remember there is only one vote recorded in the New Testament and the consensus was “Crucify Him.”

  • harry834

    Where are heaven and hell located and why can’t our airplanes or earth drills reach them?

  • harry834

    I want to know why we haven’t seen heaven or hell

  • invalid-0

    Why do you posit a fetus as an “innocent”, Rita? That implies that the mother (or father, whoever you’re looking to blame) is not an innocent and the only way they can be cleansed of their impurity is to birth this “innocent”, which is a terribly fatalistic way of looking at things. I do not believe a child is a magic bullet that is a cure for everyone else’s flaws. Truth is, a fetus is neither, since it has no concept of good or evil. Something that has no concept of our societal paradigms is ignorant, not innocent. At best it is neutral.

    Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a fetus is “innocent” in the sense that it is free of sin – how does that fit with Catholic doctrine that specifically states we are all born sinners and the only hope of salvation is through Jesus/God/piety? If a fetus is an “innocent” at what stage during life is stripped of that magical protection and becomes something to be judged like the rest of us? What if the fetus you save becomes pregnant unintentionally also?

    How can you say it’s something, then it’s suddenly it’s not? Note that these questions are not an attack on Catholics, just some genuine questions I would like to hear an answer to.

    • invalid-0

      As I left in my early teens when I realized how Patriarchial and anti-women it is.(with my parents blessing, and they and the rest of my family also left shortly threrafter, realizing that I was right.) First they say that we all are sinners, born of original sin, then they say that a fetus is innocent. They can’t have it both ways, but boy, when it comes to fetuses, they try. What about that poor innocent 9 year old the Pope excommunicated when her mother took her to get an abortion, but the rapist stepfather was still able to go to Church and take Communion. The Catholic Church is mysogonist, and I see them losing power in the world,(not just because of their horrid sex scandals, but that is another reason they are losing power.) but because they still try to hold women back through their fertility, sexuality, and keeping them out of the top order of the Church, and women are getting wise to it. It is NOT the religion for me!!

  • invalid-0

    Or did you hear a man or a man or a man say it? Unless you talked to God directly you are being controlled as a woman by men. Read the Bible it is written by human male philosophers. Nothing in it can be explained or makes any sense. I would like to believe in a place called Heaven but I think it exists here- both heaven and hell. I hope when we die as women we are still not treated as second class citizens as we are here.

  • invalid-0

    I don’t care if you’re Catholic, Baptist, Hindu or Wiccan or if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster – No one has the right to use the law to enforce their religious beliefs on everyone. And any Catholic lawmaker or governor who does, violates his/her oath of office to uphold the Constitution and should be impeached!

  • invalid-0

    Rita’s alleged mind is already made up, and I fear has been turned to mush from too much listening to Rush Limberger, et al. I am curious though, how you conclude that birth control is abortion. An unfertilized egg is not a fetus, anymore than a sperm is a fetus. When combined, an unfertilized egg and a sperm have the POTENTIAL for making a fetus, but until they do, they are just bodily fluids. So how can you call birth control, which I assume includes condoms, abortion? Skewed logic, seems to me. I suppose that type of thinking follows naturally when a person says as though fact, that we have “eternal life.” My dear, that is a personal opinion, based on belief. No one has ever proven there is any life after this life.

    Rita does not realize that outlawing abortion is just another way for men to control women’s bodies. Among the first ten things a dictatorship imposes when it takes power over a state is to outlaw abortion. Some of the others are seizing control of the media and making everyone register for the draft. No matter what Rita, et al, say or do, the overpowering human urge to reproduce conquers all. Telling a 15-year-old male or female to turn off their hormones is unrealistic-just plain silly, actually. Ask Sarah Palin’s daughter. Therefore, there will ALWAYS be unwanted babies, and not all from the wombs of 15-year-old females, but more mature women as well. If abortion were outlawed, women would still have them, but around in back, up the stairs in a non-surgical environment that would kill women as well as the fetus. As Clinton said (remember him-peace and prosperity) “Abortion should be legal and rare.” Rita, if you are so against abortion, don’t ever have one.

  • invalid-0

    Rita, I am also a Catholic I certainly appreciate what you are saying, I (like you, I am certain) will continue to pray for their conversion. It makes me really so sad that there are so many people here that are just completely turned away from their Lord and Savior, in whom they would find much peace.
    I know this because I was like them. Thank God I am on the side of truth now-that was no way to live.
    God bless you Rita.

  • invalid-0

    The Catholic Church considers babies in the womb “innocent”. The term is given to distinguish between people whom might be killed in self defense, just war, or the death penalty. These babies have done nothing to deserve death–as a rule it is merely a matter of “convenience”.

    One effect of oral contraceptive can be the prevention of an “embryo” in the uterus–abortifacient. Now endocrine disruption in fish is attributed to excretion of synthetic estrogen in the water supply. Another side effect is thought to be the early development of girls and hormone imbalance in men. Many already thought men were becoming feminized–now they may have an excuse. Yep, self control is always difficult–we are not animals–but is the alternative worth the price?

    The Catholic Church excommunicated those who refused to integrate schools in the 60′s–no complaint there. Let the Church say the murder of embryos, babies, infirm, or elderly is wrong and Catholic’s are bound to defend them and the Church becomes the bad guys.

    For those who have been the product of the public school system, it may come as a surprise to learn religious beliefs and Canon Law have been used in formulating civil law since the first century. We may not see Roe overturned in our lifetime, but rest assured the day will come when the pre born–as were blacks–will be given their “God given” rights.

    Regarding life after death–I ascribe to the Pascal’s Wager method of deciding the issue.

  • wendy-banks

    I absolutely agree with you, JoshuasGranma. They MUST put the Constitution and law AHEAD of their religion, or they SHOULD NOT have a job, period.

    And you Right-Wing wingnuts, don’t preach to me about ‘god’s law’– I don’t give a rats ass about a iron-age religion that is hopelessly out-of-date (and out-of-touch) with today’s world, nature, science, and logic. Anything that does not adapt tends to die out anyway– And that is what xianity is doing– dieing out–Thankfully.

    Happy to be Heathen, and lover of science.

  • invalid-0

    Wiccans believe that it is _wrong_ to impose our beliefs on anybody’s free will. Therefore, according to our trsditions, if you don’t play the game, don’t presume to make the rules, and if you are against abortion, don’t have one and then picket the clinic that helped you a week later, and don’t force your daughter or mistress to terminate a wanted pregnanacy.

  • invalid-0

    It is unconstitutional to deny someone thier right to life. It has already been established that life begins at conception. Religion really has nothing to do with it, except that people who answer to God just happen to be on the side of life and the preservation of it.

  • mellankelly1

    It is unconstitutional to deny someone thier right to life.

    To be more specific, it is unconstitutional to deny any person his or her constitutional rights which include (but certainly are not limited to) life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Which is why women are the most qualified people to be making decisions regarding their pregnancies, right?  Women do not suddenly lose their constitutional rights immediately upon becoming pregnant, do they?

    It has already been established that life begins at conception.

    Obviously biological life begins at conception… certainly biological life is not on par with the lives of women and their families.

    Religion really has nothing to do with it, except that people who answer to God just happen to be on the side of life and the preservation of it.

    Your idea’s about "religion" are completely irrelevant to anyone else’s relationship with God.  There are many who have God in their lives and support the basic rights of women… and, as evidenced by your posts, there are those who have God in their lives and deny the basic rights of women.  No person (or group) has cornered the market on God.

  • invalid-0

    As a Catholic and a Religious Sister, I am unequivocally pro-life. I support all lawful, official and economic means that will help end this national tragedy of abortion. But more needs to be done to expand the dialog and to assist in the education of Catholics about the common good. One way is to truly uphold the value of life, we need to work at ways to reduce abortions and pay attention to the economic reasons that remain core to the reason a woman may choose to have an abortion. It is imperative we not just say we value life with mere words but with viable actions. How have you reached out to a woman living in poverty lately?

  • truth

    No need to be emotional over the fact that Kathleen Sebelius is no longer a Catholic – she has chosen to excommunicate herself based on her public voting record in Kansas. …And if her record in Kansas is any indication of how she would lead HHS, she would be an aggressive advocate of the expansion of abortion and the use of Federal funds to pay for it. She is in deep. Until she repents and amends for her scandal by publically recanting both in word and action her pro-death position(s)she cannot walk the "narrow path" – but she chose this. The Catholic Church only wishes for her true happiness even in spite of the fact that Kathleen doesn’t want it! That is True Love, and that is the Love that our Catholic Bishops represent – Christ’s Love for us. To ask them to represent something different is impossible.

  • invalid-0

    There seems to be some confusion among commenters regarding whether or not Gov. Sebelius has “automatically” excommunicated herself. I would highly recommend that said commenters read the following link regarding Catholics, canon law, and abortion.

    http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/abortion/documents/2004notesoncanonlaw1_001.pdf

    Through her actions in public office, Gov. Sebelius has not incurred latae sententiae excommunication, nor has she been formally excommunicated by her bishop.

    Furthermore, even excommunication does not make one no longer Catholic – it is simply a disciplinary measure to encourage a change of behavior. Therefore, a simple disagreement with non-dogmatic doctrine is clearly NOT enough to incur excommunication or merit being called a “fake” Catholic.

  • invalid-0

    Apologies, the link did not come through above. Please try this:

    Click here.

  • invalid-0

    One, only one, but definitely and irreducibly one problem is that children, conceived, should live to whatever end God has ordained for them. People who embrace a pro-choice position (whether, or not, they “privately” oppose abortion; whether they advocate abortion as a “family planning” alternative or simply tolerate it; whether they do other good things for women and babies, or not) intend to allow the person carrying the baby to decide whether or not the baby lives. This means that a woman carrying a baby can decide to kill it. That is a totally unacceptable position. Arrogating to oneself the right to decide the whether another human being lives or dies—unaccountable to anyone but oneself, and, at that, one helpless to defend themselves, is reprehensible at every level. If you succeed in your position, that success will undermine civilization as we know and enjoy it.

  • harry834

    trying to get women, like commenter Lisa, to come forward and try to ensure that she and women like her who’ve had abortion will be prosecuted for murder.

    As you imply Michael, abortion is a genocidal crime. And while it is currently legal, so too was Naziism. But we eventually prosecuted those people successfully: punishments

    In the name of civilization, will you Michael and Lisa work to get ALL these women prosecuted for their crimes of murder? Including any female friends you’ve have who have had abortions, because no one is above the law.

  • mellankelly1

    One, only one, but definitely and irreducibly one problem is that children, conceived, should live to whatever end God has ordained for them.

    Well, some people do not believe that a child (or person) is present upon concpetion (this is a personal belief) and in addition, please do feel free to prove that you know "whatever end" God has ordained for any person (including yourself.)  Again, personal belief… and yours does not trump mine.

    This means that a woman carrying a baby can decide to kill it.

    BS… if a woman kills a baby while she’s carrying it, she will either goto jail or spend time in a psychiatric facility (depending on the circumstances surrounding the baby’s death.) 

    Arrogating to oneself the right to decide the whether another human being lives or dies

    Again, please feel free to cite where one pro-choice individual has stated that they have the right to decide whether another human being/person lives or dies.  I am unable to find any such reference.

    If you succeed in your position, that success will undermine civilization as we know and enjoy it.

    Drama Queen much?

  • invalid-0

    1)What do you believe God believes are “the basic rights of women?”

    2)What information did you use to formulate your answer?

    3) The life in the womb certainly also does not lose their constitutional rights either, soo….what then? You must then be able to reconcile how the woman can still be constitutionally allowed the right to life while the life in her womb is not constitutionally allowed. Please explain how this is possible.

  • invalid-0

    “Well, some people do not believe that a child (or person) is present upon concpetion..”

    What is “concpetion”?

  • invalid-0

    Love, love, love the link to Catholics for Choice….now, there’s a great source for getting true information on all things Catholic!

  • harry834

    I also saw your last post: "If they come for me I will go". Well that’s a good step, but why aren’t you helping them?

    Don’t you want to see yourself punished in this lifetime? Or are you hoping to wait till some indefinite time? Or wait till they don’t notice you among the many who did abort?

    Besides "waiting till they come", what are you doing to make sure they can find you, and have a good case against you?

    A righteous person who committs murder will ACTIVELY work to turn themselves in. Otherwise, you’re still guilty.

    You called me a tool and a fool. But your still a murderer. And one that seems to hope that the cops will walk by.

    What are you doing to make sure you’ll be prosecuted? (besides waiting for a hypothetical knock on your door)

    • invalid-0

      I happen to be a rightous murderer who is actively working on saving lives just like the ones I murdered. If I am in jail, I will not be able to try to actively save human lives anymore in the way that I currently am. So, while I’m waiting for the authorities to come and take me away, I will speak up for the pre-born who deserve to live and speak up for the mothers that will give birth to them.

      • invalid-0

        You’re actually not doing so on this thread….as there is no way to save one ‘baby’ from posting here. This thread doesn’t offer pre-abortion counseling to women who might be considering it.

  • invalid-0

    I have the same question – how does one know what God ordained for them?

  • invalid-0

    A typo.
    Could you possibly be any more passive-aggressive and nasty in your proselytization efforts? Because, while I deeply appreciate your daily demonstration of the spiritual bankruptcy of the religious right I cannot imagine what you hope to accomplish that is even minimally constructive, even by your postage stamp sized view of the universe.

    • invalid-0

      Hey-who said that?

  • invalid-0

    you doing to end wars? To get rid of the death penalty? You do not get it, this religion and almost all others with the exception of dianica wiccan are male written, male dominated. You have read the Bible I am sure. How do they treat women? Answer: like slaves and possesions.
    What makes you think that these men of the church actually care about fetuses. All they care about is controlling women. It is so obvious it screams injustice.
    People are killed all the time in war on the streets in prison, and for what? Noone cares about them. What about all the women who dissappear at the hands of serial killers,and rapists? Are you not suppose to speak out for death and wrongs against everyone?
    The point is you can not FORCE people to believe or change like this. So why do you bother?

  • invalid-0

    Well that is killing innocent animals and I and many other believe this is wrong. STOP eating dead innocent,murdered animals,and if you think this is rediculous then think again this is how your preaching sounds to me!!!

  • invalid-0

    This post was in reply to Michael Dixon post

  • invalid-0

    You claim that the Catholic Church is “extreme” and “right wing.” What you pass off as reason here is simply name calling. Thanks for the lesson in ad hominem arguments. Apparently you don’t even think a church has the right to minister to its own adherents as it sees fit. So much for religious liberty. Frankly, what most American Catholics believe is beside the point. Most Americans thought slavery was just fine. That did not make it right.

    • invalid-0

      a blob of cells in a WOMAN’S body? Sorry Pete, it is nowhere NEAR the same thing. Another anti-choice straw argument.

  • harry834

    doesn’t strongly correlate with what constitutes human rights…

    remember that when your religious friends vote against gay marriage

  • invalid-0

    “Apparently you don’t even think a church has the right to minister to its own adherents as it sees fit.

    Oh, I see, so when the Church heirarchy does everything it can to criminalize abortion and and make contraceptives hard to obtain they’re not trying to shove their belief systems down the throats of non-Catholics. When The Church spends millions making gay marriage illegal or trying to overturn our Death with Dignity Act the only folks to suffer from their ministrations are Catholics.
    ‘Religious liberty’ does not give republicans the right to force your ugly religions on the rest of us .

    • invalid-0

      should pay it’s fair share of taxes, due to it’s politicizing everything that they touch. You are supposed to be apolitical if you are to receive tax breaks as a religion. I think that we should all get together and DEMAND that the Catholic Church pay taxes!!

  • invalid-0

    You might want to refrain from making all of these Nazi
    comparisons, I mean, you ARE pro-abortion, correct? Hope your not suggesting that the killing of the unborn is akin to the killing of all the poor Jews….

    • invalid-0

      Nazis with their laws against abortion for ‘Aryan’ women.

    • harry834

      don’t you want to take action to help them prosecute you. You don’t have to wait till something is illegal to prepare for trial. That is why the IndictBUsh people are active and the Nuremberg people got active, even before a trial was on the near horizon.

      What are you doing for your trial, Lisa?

  • invalid-0

    BTW, if you are setting up your own CPC prison then you can set up your own CPC prison chain gang which counsels against abortion at the center/lobbies against it or other methods as part of the prison labor program. That way you can pay the penalty you claim you deserve, get the point across about the gravity of abortion by actually acting like its murder, and still ‘save babies’.

    On the other hand theres always excuses to enjoy your freedom.

  • invalid-0

    You have a point. It might be better for me to just take the stance that my abortions did not kill living humans. I could then say that it is my right and my choice to do what I want with my body. This certainly would be an easier path to take. If I haven’t actually murdered anyone, then I wouldn’t have to feel like I am being a robber of justice…..maybe I will become pro-abortion after all.

    • invalid-0

      So, what we have here (with Lisa) is one of those obscenely hypocritical catholic women who picket the clinic one week, avail themselves of its services (sneaking in the back door) the next, and the 3rd week, are _right back out there_ with their bottled fetuses and “Abortion Is Murder” signs.

      And since this sort of woman thinks it is “immoral” to use birth control, she will be back in the clinic’s back door the _next_ time she conceives.

      Loathsome!

  • invalid-0

    Women who are considering having an abortion may come here to read through this valuable resource freely offered to them. They may see my comments, your comments, and reconsider having an abortion. I beg to differ that this thread and all of the other threads here could very well be offering valuable pre-abortion counseling. I will use all avenues available to me to share with all women that I regret my abortions.

  • invalid-0

    On Catholics Swift boating Sebelius. Yeah, right.

  • invalid-0

    Great then I won’t see you commenting anymore against abortion, but if we do then Harry834/my points about taking actions to back up what you are actually preaching still stand.

  • invalid-0

    Most comments have gone well off the indexed thread title/content about Sebelius… and the comments themselves all over the map on the issues mentioned.

  • zombo09

    Excellently written article, if only all bloggers offered the same content as you, the internet would be a much better place. Please keep it up! Cheers.play roulette poker reviews play blackjack online video poker movie download horse racing betting iphone ringtones

  • http://www.betamerica.com/?utm_source=seo&utm_medium=article&utm_campaign=seo invalid-0

    We must analyze the things we want to believe..It is not about the religion it is the way of your relationship with the Almighty. We can be save through our faith and knowledge about HIM not only by our religion or organization.:)

  • http://www.compare-ink-cartridge-retailers.com/ invalid-0

    Christianity is a religion which preaches salvation for all those who do good irrespective of their religion or faith. Hence i see no reason why there should be any opposition in kathleen taking a post in the White house. But at the same time, being a part of a religion one, is required to abide by the laws and beliefs of that religion setting aside one’s own prejudices.

  • http://www.latestwallpapers.net invalid-0

    I totally agree with the reply of simon skinner, we must analyze the things we want to believe..It’s totally not about the religion :)

  • http://www.thetechmonster.com invalid-0

    I agree with the fact of james :)
    Religion is not a big fact, relationships are.

  • invalid-0

    If you are Pro-Life don’t be wishy washy and say it is ok for other people but I would never do it. One should stand up all the way for one’s beliefs. Being a faithful Catholic often means going against the world, as the world hated him they will also hate us. My country is not always right and risks the loss of God’s Blessings as over one million babies are murdered each year.