At Tonight’s Address, What Obama Should Say About Abortion


In Sunday’s issue of the New York Times, William Saletan confirms
that "President Obama wants to end the culture wars" and reminds us that his
"joint address to Congress this week could be an opportunity to change that
debate."  I couldn’t agree more.  

But, I disagree with Saletan about what President Obama
should say.  Saletan argues that Obama should defuse the
culture war by telling pro-choice pragmatists to get a sense of morals and
telling pro-life moralists to get realistic. 
I think that President Obama should acknowledge the unique and
legitimate moral and emotional experiences of women who have had abortions –
instead of focusing on the opinions and convictions of those who haven’t
stopped to listen. 

In his Address, President Obama is expected to emphasize the
many challenges facing our nation and the world, and lay out his vision for how
to move forward.  The economy – the loss
of jobs, homes, credit and effective regulation – and the need to improve
health care for American families will undoubtedly be at the top of his agenda,
and bipartisan strategies will most likely be the overarching theme of his
speech.  It is in this very spirit of
bipartisanship that President Obama should address one of the most divisive
issues of our times: abortion. 

In a speech of this magnitude, a speech that the whole world
will watch, all it takes is one sentence to change the course of world
events.  In one sentence, President Obama
can reframe the whole debate and finally address abortion as a matter of the
heart.  With just a few words, the
President can convey his support and his respect for each member of his audience
who has personally experienced abortion. 
He can – and he should – show that he cares.  A post-partisan world needs a
message that will speak to women post-abortion.

In our election-season campaign, Pro-Voice
in ’08
, Exhale and RH Reality Check asked women who have had abortions what
they wanted to hear from the next President when he gave his first State of the
Union speech.  Today, we publish their
voices and ask President Obama to speak directly to us – the millions of
American women, and our loved ones, who have personally experienced abortion –
in his first Presidential Address.   

Here is what we would like to hear:

"I know it was
really hard for you and you were very unhappy for a while afterwards, and I
also know that you did the right thing, because nobody else knows what you need
as well as you do." 

"I can only
imagine how difficult a position you must have been in, and I respect and honor
the thought and care that you used in making your decision." 

"I believe that
you were thoughtful and compassionate as you considered the heart-wrenching,
life-altering and soul-splintering place that you were in regarding the
potential for life within you. I respect your choice and the strength required
to choose, and the courage to live, truly live alongside your choice each
day." 

"I’m sorry you were in
such a difficult time in your life, and I will do my best to protect other
women who face similar issues." 

"I know it was
not an easy choice, but I trust you with the choice you made. And I respect
your right to make the choice." 

"I trust that you
have made the most responsible, intelligent and moral decision for yourself and
your family."
 

Are you a woman who has had an abortion and know what you’d
like to hear from President Obama?  How
can he convey – in one sentence – support and respect for your unique
experience?  Add your voice and be a part
of creating a pro-voice dialogue by contributing a comment or uploading your
own video here.

Watch videos women have already uploaded:

Like this story? Your $10 tax-deductible contribution helps support our research, reporting, and analysis.

  • invalid-0

    Well, he’d only be talking to half of the people at best – the other half are dead… common sense…

  • invalid-0

    he may be comforting the women that had the abortions, but what about the babies that had to feel the physical pain of it…

  • amanda-marcotte

    Great post, Aspen.  I know it pains some commenters here to be reminded that women are  humans who make choices for good reasons, but the suggestion for Obama is great.  As for you guys, what next?  Asking Obama to speak about how much it pains sperm to die in a Kleenex instead of a uterus?

  • invalid-0

    I don’t see how the word bipartisan can be used so loosely in this context. If Obama was bipartisan on the subject of abortion, he would not be poised to invoke FOCA, which will strip all control on abortion. I know he doesn’t want his daughter to be “punished with a baby for making a mistake” but if she, as a minor, went without his knowledge to a clinic that left her pemanently maimed or even dead (yes it happens in the US but you won’t hear about it on the nightly news) would he hold the abortionist responsible or say, well it was her choice and her right? My kids can’t even take Tylenol at school without my permission. Why in the world would this country, this president, take away the right to protect their minor child in such a serious manner? For those children who are being abused, pregnant at the hand of a father or close family member, authorities should be called in.

  • invalid-0

    I have no idea what it was like for you to have an abortion, or what you felt afterward. Maybe it was hard, maybe easy. Maybe you were unhappy. Or maybe you were perfectly fine. How in the world should I know? I never met you before this afternoon and we’ve hardly talked.

    I do know that when I got my girlfriend pregnant in 1995, she was unhappy that she had to get an abortion, and she felt sad afterwards. But my half-sister knew as soon as she found out she was pregnant that she needed to have an abortion, and she had no second thoughts. She said she was just relieved to have it done and move on with her life. I have some male friends whose girlfriends and wives have had abortions. From what I’ve heard, each woman had a different and unique response.

    I don’t know you. And to tell the truth, it’s not my business to speculate about how you felt about your abortion.

    But my multicultural background makes me sensitive to the myriad backgrounds my fellow Americans – including women – come from in this country, including religious backgrounds with their very differing attitudes toward abortion.

    My particular background makes me especially sensitive to the need to appreciate, strengthen and protect democracy in this country — for everyone, including women. Democracy is based on a deep respect for pluralism. Democracy assumes that each person arrives at her morality by recognizing her individuality and by celebrating how that individuality interacts with community. I know the community owes each person excellent education and medical care. If everyone has both of those AND access to democracy, abortion is both my business as president, and no one’s business except yours. I don’t have to “trust” that you’ve felt or done anything at all when it comes to your emotions or the morality of your response to your pregnancy. But as president, I will protect your right to abortion. Because definitionally, abortion is not what’s hard. It’s democracy that is.

  • invalid-0

    I know he doesn’t want his daughter to be “punished with a baby for making a mistake” but if she, as a minor, went without his knowledge to a clinic …

    Obama has a very loving, supportive relationship with his daughters. If one of them were in a position to need the services of an abortion clinic, why in God’s name would she not discuss it with her parents?

    Why in the world would this country, this president, take away the right to protect their minor child in such a serious manner?

    Allowing abortion without parental consent/notification does not take away that right or obligation. It does, however, negate the right to fully control one aspect of the child’s life. Your next sentence acknowledges why this is a practical necessity.

    For those children who are being abused, pregnant at the hand of a father or close family member, authorities should be called in.

    How nice of you to declare that that is the best course of action in all such possible circumstances. I’ll bet your advice to all battered women is “Just leave him!” too.

  • invalid-0
  • invalid-0

    Those women in the videos look sad. Maybe the pro-lifers are correct after all.

  • invalid-0

    It would be helpful if you would state what is actually occurring rather that gloss over it with that idiotic word “choice”. It would read like this:
    …”I know it pains some commenters here to be reminded that women are humans who decide to kill their babies for good reasons…”
    I am saying this as a woman who had three abortions when I was young, scared, and with no true understanding of what I was doing. I regret killing my babies. I WISH there had been a law to save myself and those little human lives from my own stupidity and I wish there had been SOMEONE pulling for me to be a mother to my babies instead of killing them.
    I pray this nation and the world WAKES UP about this senseless, barbaric baby killing that has been going on for far too long. Your remark about sperm is brilliant also. WAKE UP PEOPLE!

  • invalid-0

    Conveniently omitting from your manifesto on democracy….

    THE RIGHT TO *LIFE* LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

    (Unless, of course, you are unable to see the light of day or take your first breath due to the fact that although you are a seperate human entity who will grow into a human adult if given enough time I decide that you will instead die because you are in my body because I made the choice to have sex even though I didn’t want to get pregnant but that certainly isn’t the issue here because it is also my right to have sex because, well, I CAN).

    Doesn’t everyone just love a democracy where nobody is responsible for their actions, and humans can just be ERASED for no damn good reason. LOVELY!
    WAKE UP!

  • invalid-0

    1) How do you know President Obama has a loving, supportive relationship with his daughters?

    2) Are you insinuating that only young women who do not have loving, supportive realationships with heir parents are getting abortions behind their parent’s backs?

    3) Even if a minor was sexually abused and became pregnant, doesn’t she deserve the counsel of the very people who are responsible for her, and why in the name of God do people think that just because a child was conceived by rape or incest that somehow it is a dirty, lowdown baby that does not deseve a shot at life like all of us? Do you for one minute believe that there are not any products of rape or incest walking the face of the earth with us? Have you asked? Or do you just assume that they must be the people locked up in prison….WAKE UP PEOPLE! COME ON! Why do YOU deserve to live and decide who dies?! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? WAKE UP!

  • invalid-0

    Ain’t that the truth.
    I recently came across a quote from Ronald Reagan:

    “I have noticed that everyone in favor of abortion has been born”

    WAKE UP PEOPLE!

  • aspen-baker

    Hi Lisa,

     

    As a woman who has had abortions you are invited to join in this campaign.  If President Obama could say one sentence tonight that would make you feel seen and heard for the experience you are describing above – what would that sentence be? What would you like to hear? I hope you will contribute.

     

  • invalid-0

    “For those children who are being abused, pregnant at the hand of a father or close family member, authorities should be called in.” Why are the anti-choice so up in arms about underage girls getting abortions who might have been molested but not for those who are giving up for adoption? There is this horrible case in Indiana where a monster was molesting his half sister starting at age 11–she has had 7 pregnancies and 2 were given up for adoption, 1 at age 14! Why was the adoption agency not treated like Planned Parenthood in this case? In both cases authorities need to be called in but it seems the anti-choice folks don’t care about the girls just the fetuses.

  • invalid-0

    1) How do you know President Obama has a loving, supportive relationship with his daughters?

    I’m not blind. Have you seen them?

    2) Are you insinuating that only young women who do not have loving, supportive realationships with heir parents are getting abortions behind their parent’s backs?

    If the relationship were in good order, why would a young woman not talk to her parents about a new and scary experience in her life?

    And “going behind her parents’ backs” is not the same thing as “going alone, without anyone to help her.” She could just as well go to a supportive aunt, or other trusted relation.

    The reason why you don’t want parental notification laws is because when notification is a good thing, it doesn’t need to be legally mandated. (The reason why nobody is pushing a parental-or-aunt-or-whoever notification is because the legal system is terrible at negotiating a young woman’s social network like that.)

    Ultimately, it comes down to putting trust in the young woman herself—that she is the person most qualified to determine who she will confer with prior to getting an abortion (or whatever she decides to do).

    3) Even if a minor was sexually abused and became pregnant, doesn’t she deserve the counsel of the very people who are responsible for her,

    You mean, the same people who abused her, in the case of incest?

    and why in the name of God do people think that just because a child was conceived by rape or incest that somehow it is a dirty, lowdown baby that does not deseve a shot at life like all of us? Do you for one minute believe that there are not any products of rape or incest walking the face of the earth with us? Have you asked? Or do you just assume that they must be the people locked up in prison….WAKE UP PEOPLE! COME ON! Why do YOU deserve to live and decide who dies?! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? WAKE UP!

    Okay. The next time a woman is sexually abused and becomes pregnant as a result, we’ll have you look into her eyes, and tell her that she will have to carry her abuser’s child to term. Whether she wants to or not.

    Who do you think you are, indeed?

  • invalid-0

    A fetus is not a baby, a baby is fully developed and doesn’t need a woman’s body for support. A fetus cannot breathe on it’s own, nor does a fetus have a SS card and is NOT recognized by the government. A baby should be loved and wanted, not hated and resented and go to bed hungry with it’s little tummy grumbling because some doofus like YOU thinks t6hat death is the worst possible thing that could happen to a fetus. Not existing is better than existing in horribly poor and unloved circumstances. What are you suggesting, that abortion be made illegal? There will STILL be abortion, only the woman will die. Is that what YOU want? Do you think about the woman at ALL? Do you realize that if abortion was made illegal, rich women could still travel to any one of the majority of countries that it is legal in and get one, while poor women would have to risk their lives and possibly DIE to get one? Are you living in Disneyland? Do you even TRY to understand WHY a woman would get an abortion in the first place? I thought not.

  • invalid-0

    In this day and age each person has to look out for themselves, even kids. Never trust anyone. The anti-choice movement will never convince me because they are hippocrites, especially the Catholic Church. I do not see the Vatican up in arms and trying to convince the congress to stop all wars because they are killing innocent lives,or stop the death penalty because two wrongs don’t bring back the murdered. In other words this is about controlling women it is all over the place read between the lines. That is why there is such a divide!! Tell the anti-choice people to start defending ALL LIFE and then maybe the opposite side will listen. Until then I do not think so!

  • invalid-0

    1. I have had THREE abortions, so that qualifies me as having to “TRY to understand WHY a woman would get an abortion in the first place”

    2. A female child/young woman/woman who is pregnant with a FETUS/BABY can give the FETUS/BABY up for adoption if she feels that the FETUS/BABY is unwanted by herself. No need to kill the FETUS/BABY.

    3. If abortion had been illegal when I had my unwanted pregnancies, then I, being a law abiding citizen above all else, would have NOT had an abortion but would have suffered through the SHAME of a growing belly which showed that I was having SEX while unmarried. If other women want to take the chance of harming or killing themselves to procure an illegal abortion, then that would be their choice, I guess. The law would be the law, just like any other circumstance, such as driving while intoxicated. the outcomes can both result in death, right?

    4. FETUS/BABY would never have to die at all if people who did not want children would STOP HAVING SEX. Wouldn’t it just be so much NICER if a CLUMP OF CELLS/EMBRYO/FETUS/BABY didn’t have to die?

    5. I LOVE the fact that you are showing how the FETUS/BABY would not be “recognized by the government”, yet the whole pro-abortion argument is based on the fact that you want government to have no control in your choices about your body. I hope you can see the humor in your words also.

    6. MANY more things I can say about this because the pro-abortion argument is extremely flimsy, I will end this one here-you can read some of my other responses here.

    • invalid-0

      The outcome of driving, even if not intoxicated, can be death or other injury.

  • invalid-0

    1. Just because people in the public eye always look happy, marvelous, loving, etc. in front of cameras does not mean that is truly how things are behind closed doors. It is as true for regular people as it is for the famous.
    2. Just because a child has a good relationship with their parents does not mean that they would feel as though they could say, “Ok.I had sex, I am pregnant, and I don’t know what to do. Help me”. Think about it-wouldn’t a spontaneous pregnancy be the very thing that could potentially destroy a “great relationship” between a child and their parents? That happens everyday, and it many times is those very same parents who take the girl kicking and screaming to the abortion clinic so the parents won’t be shamed, even if the girl says she wants to keep her baby. EVERYDAY that happens. Go sit in a crisis pregnancy center for a day and just observe. Pro-aborts may change their minds rather quickly if they did that one thing alone!
    3. I get what you are saying-if the parents were sexually abusing the girl and dady got her pregnant, you are right- maybe instead of talking to either one of them about it, maybe she should run to DSS and have the daddy removed from the home. That is actually a better suggestion. HOWEVER- pro-aborts don’t like that answer, do they? They just want the girl to be able to kill the pregnancy, after all, it’s a ‘dirty’ conception. Right? Wrong….
    4. I would GLADLY sit down with ANY abortion minded woman/child, for ANY reason- in this case, rape or incest. This is what I would say to her (Short version):
    …What an awful experience it must have been to be raped. It has never happened to me, so I can only imagine the pain you are feeling. But I have had an abortion. At first, I felt relief, because I thought my problem was over. I thought I would be able to forget it ever happened and go on living my life the way I wanted. But, I would have recurring flashbackes about the procedure, and I would immediately will myself to forget it. I kept feeling a great sense of loss, guilt, and sadness but I could not put my finger on it. I spoke of the abortion and my feelings about it to no one. I became promiscuous, began abusing drugs and alcohol, and have had thoughts of suicide many times. I went on to have two more abortions in a 3-4 year time span. My life was in a shambles for a very long time.
    It has taken me many years to realize the connection between my abortions and my problems. I supressed the memories of my abortions so much, that I cannot even tell you what exact day they occurred, and I am not completely sure of the year on the last two. I know that carrying the child growing within you will be very difficult- BUT- if you give that child a CHANCE to live- with adoptive parents who will LOVE that child no matter what- won’t that, in some way, give you POWER over what that man did to make you POWERLESS, through rape? I live everyday with the knowledge that I KILLED MY CHILDREN IN MY WOMB. I deeply regret my abortions. My hope for you is that you stay STRONG and CHOOSE LIFE-not only for that baby, but for yourself. WHEN WE KILL, WE TOO ARE KILLED IN SOME WAY.
    ….short version….

  • invalid-0

    You are incorrect about the Catholic Church’s stance on capital punishment, and incorrect about their stance on war. They vehemently oppose both. There are wars that can have a criteria for being “just wars”, however I am not aware of ANY wars that the Vatican has said are just. Please correct me if I am wrong. The Vatican DOES speak out against war. The Vatican DOES speak out against capital punishment.
    AND, the Vatican and the Pope and the Catholic Church- MUST speak out heavily and heartily about the greatest evil on this earth-the slaughter of innocent life in the mother’s womb. PERIOD.
    If nothing else, PLEASE go to a place to get the correct information on the Catholic Church and the Vatican. Any Catholic (who is REALLY CATHOLIC- not the Nancy Pelosi types) will be able to call that from a mile away when you speak. At least educate yourself on the truth, here is a great place to start:
    http://www dot usccb dot org

    ALSO-did you KNOW that Catholic Charities is the largest organized charity in the United States? They run orphanages, feed the hungry, run homes for pregnant women, help the homeless, and many many more things.

    I LOVE my Catholic faith!

  • invalid-0

    I will pray for his conversion, Aspen. I think you could sum up yourself from my comments what I wish he would say! He won’t say it–not now. He and the other liberals in Washington currently are chomping at the bit to kill as many pre-born children as they can.

    Thanks for the invitation, but I am not like the post-abortive women here, I suspect. I came here off a link from Jill Staneck. I regret my abortions. I wish not another woman would choose it for herself and the unborn human baby she carries.

    Abortion is satan’s PRIZE on this earth.

  • invalid-0

    1. I have had THREE abortions, so that qualifies me as having to “TRY to understand WHY a woman would get an abortion in the first place”

    Yet you’re not willing to extend to other women the same choice (and confidence in one’s ability to make the choice) that you had.

    2. A female child/young woman/woman who is pregnant with a FETUS/BABY can give the FETUS/BABY up for adoption if she feels that the FETUS/BABY is unwanted by herself. No need to kill the FETUS/BABY.

    That’s assuming, of course, that the whole pregnancy/labor/birthing process is easy, painless, and free of potential emotional/financial/medical risks (up to and including death). If you are not a doctor, nor intimately aware of a woman’s circumstances, then you are not in a position to say what is “needed” or not.

    3. If abortion had been illegal when I had my unwanted pregnancies, then I, being a law abiding citizen above all else, would have NOT had an abortion but would have suffered through the SHAME of a growing belly which showed that I was having SEX while unmarried.

    It’s easy to say that you would brave the shame and stigmatization that would come with an out-of-wedlock pregnancy in your community. The reality of being in a situation like that, however, can be horrific. You cannot imagine the stress, the anxiety, the repercussions that it would have on you and your social network. Women have undergone unsafe, illegal abortion procedures because they decided that the very real risk of death is better than what they would have had to live through otherwise. Think about that.

    If other women want to take the chance of harming or killing themselves to procure an illegal abortion, then that would be their choice, I guess. The law would be the law, just like any other circumstance, such as driving while intoxicated. the outcomes can both result in death, right?

    So what you’re saying is, you don’t give a damn about women dying.

    4. FETUS/BABY would never have to die at all if people who did not want children would STOP HAVING SEX.

    The fact that you want people to stop having healthy, fulfilling sexual relationships says volumes about you.

    Wouldn’t it just be so much NICER if a CLUMP OF CELLS/EMBRYO/FETUS/BABY didn’t have to die?

    Sure it would. That doesn’t mean that carrying it to term would be nicer than it dying, however. If you’re getting an abortion, you’ve already decided that that is the least not-nice outcome. (The nicest outcome, of course, would be never to have become pregnant in the first place.)

    5. I LOVE the fact that you are showing how the FETUS/BABY would not be “recognized by the government”, yet the whole pro-abortion argument is based on the fact that you want government to have no control in your choices about your body. I hope you can see the humor in your words also.

    Why is there a contradiction there, let alone humor? If the government were to recognize the fetus as a legal person-entity, then obviously that’s going to affect the choices available to the woman carrying that fetus.

    6. MANY more things I can say about this because the pro-abortion argument is extremely flimsy, I will end this one here-you can read some of my other responses here.

    You’ve stated that you don’t care whether women die as a result of an abortion ban. Your argument is strong only because you believe that this is an acceptable premise.

  • invalid-0

    1. Just because people in the public eye always look happy, marvelous, loving, etc. in front of cameras does not mean that is truly how things are behind closed doors. It is as true for regular people as it is for the famous.

    Oh, of course. But there’s a lot of evidence to indicate that the relationship is healthy and loving, and not a whole lot to show otherwise. The burden of proof is on anyone suggesting that the Obama family is dysfunctional.

    2. Just because a child has a good relationship with their parents does not mean that they would feel as though they could say, “Ok.I had sex, I am pregnant, and I don’t know what to do. Help me”. Think about it-wouldn’t a spontaneous pregnancy be the very thing that could potentially destroy a “great relationship” between a child and their parents?

    Only if it weren’t such a “great relationship” to begin with. You don’t think parents mentally prepare themselves, to some extent, for their daughter coming home one day and saying, “I’m pregnant?” That otherwise loving parents would know how to respond to that in a similarly loving way?

    That happens everyday, and it many times is those very same parents who take the girl kicking and screaming to the abortion clinic so the parents won’t be shamed, even if the girl says she wants to keep her baby. EVERYDAY that happens. Go sit in a crisis pregnancy center for a day and just observe. Pro-aborts may change their minds rather quickly if they did that one thing alone!

    Er… I thought you were arguing in favor of the parents knowing what was best for their daughter.

    3. I get what you are saying-if the parents were sexually abusing the girl and dady got her pregnant, you are right- maybe instead of talking to either one of them about it, maybe she should run to DSS and have the daddy removed from the home. That is actually a better suggestion.

    Yes, but again, that’s like telling a battered wife to “just leave him!” Real life is rarely that simple.

    HOWEVER- pro-aborts don’t like that answer, do they? They just want the girl to be able to kill the pregnancy, after all, it’s a ‘dirty’ conception. Right? Wrong….

    A “pro-abort” would want the young woman to have an abortion. Pro-choicers, however, would want the young woman to have the option of an abortion, among others, in case that is what she wants. Whether the conception is “dirty” or not is up to the woman herself. If she decides to keep the child and raise it, then it is certainly no one’s place to denigrate that child’s worth because of the circumstances of his/her conception.

    4. I would GLADLY sit down with ANY abortion minded woman/child, for ANY reason- in this case, rape or incest. This is what I would say to her (Short version):
    [snip]

    No, no, no. You’re merely attempting to scare her into not having an abortion. She still has the option. (And if she were well-informed, she’d know that your story is hardly universal.)

    What I was positing was the scenario where she does not have the option of an abortion, and you have to tell her that.

  • invalid-0

    1. I don’t want to extend women the same choice, because I know what living with that choice is like-and I don’t wish it on anyone. It is painful to live with the reality that I let someone kill my babies for me while they were still in my womb.
    2. Listen-we all know that there can be risks to carrying a child to term, and it is damn painful to give birth. These are just really dumb reasons to give as a reason to abort a baby. Getting and staying pregnant naturally is the most natural and least risky of all options. I know you pro-aborts don’t like to hear this, but- our bodies were DESIGNED BY OUR CREATOR to carry babies(GASP!!)
    3. That IS what I am saying: I felt it was better to kill my children than to live with the stigma of an out of wedlock belly and baby!!! I GET THAT! Now that I am older and wiser, I can see that It was plain ignorant for me to KILL A HUMAN based on what other people might think of me. SHAMEFUL! The fact that other women out there may choose abortion for that same reason I did and later REALIZE what a grave mistake they made-That is why I condemn the practice of abortion. I know what it is like to live with that sheer and utter pain of having killed my own children. Surely-SURELY- the pain of stigma and childbirth was the least painful thing to do.

    You are accusing me of not giving a damn about women, and that is not true. I love women, I am a woman. I am showing the love in a different way than a pro-abort is: by encouraging LIFE, for the woman and the baby. By encouraging the mother to do what she is built to do-grow a baby in her womb, with the nourishment of the placenta by which she supplies food and nutrients to her baby. Then, she can give birth to her child and hold him/her lovingly in her arms. If she doesn’t want the baby, FINE! So many parents unable to conceive would be willing to love that child. SO MANY!

    I have experienced aborting 3 babies, and birthing 3 babies.

    The abortions all brought physical pain, emotional pain, trauma, heartache and regret. Not to mention the pain the babies felt.

    The births brought physical pain, emotional joy, hope, love, a loving bond between myself and my babies, and a feeling in me that I can care for them and nurture them to adulthood-what a feeling of power! Of purpose!

    Why would I recommend abortion between these two options if my experience from abortion was all pain, and my experience with birth was a physical pain that goes away AMAZINGLY fast once your baby is in your arms, then all joy from that point-isn’t this a no-brainer?

    The whole debate is in how you look at things. Right?

    I do care if women die as part of an abortion ban-but, I care about the unborn who has no choice at all MORE. Someone can speak for the woman, or she can speak for herself. The unborn CANNOT speak for themselves. That is why WE must. Let me ask you-do YOU enjoy your life? Are YOU glad your mom chose life? Are YOU happy to be here, despite the hardships of life? Are you glad you were not aborted?

    I do not want to deny people loving sexual relationships. People have to WAKE UP and realize that these loving sexual relationships can bear fruit. They must be willing to bear the fruit! How selfish to take the pleasure but not the full responsibility of it. Surely you can agree that we can’t just go around producing babies to kill in the context of a loving sexual relationship-does that even sound right? You do have the option of not getting pregnant in the first place-don’t have sex if you are not willing to get pregnant! Nobody gets hurt at all that way. So simple, yet people try to make it so complicated.

    There may not ever be a law- and ya’ know, people break laws anyway-FINE- so I say to women who are abortion minded:
    get facts from abortion providers and women who have had abortions. Seek advice from clergy, doctors, counselors and many sources. Go to a crisis pregnancy center and ask questions. Get an ultrasound of that thing growing inside you-watch the heart beat. Then, listen to your heart.

    To you women here who are still not awake- I will continue to pray for you, because when you finally admit to yourself what you have done, you will need your sisters to be praying for you. When you are ready to face it, you will need healing. I highly recommend Rachel’s Vineyard dot org.
    I went on a weekend retreat with Rachel’s Vineyard and found love and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. I mourned my aborted babies. I cried rivers of tears that I did not know needed to be cried.

    I thank your group for allowing these discussions to take place, I would love to keep debating but-I have to go take care of my girls :) Love and peace to you all.

  • invalid-0

    I was a catholic all my life. Not anymore It is a Patriarchal house of inequality and secrets-remember the boys who were sexually abused? It is sick and I am sorry but the Catholic church spends way more time on trying to stop abortion than the war. You are being misled. As a woman (I assume by your name sorry if I am incorrect) how can you not feel that you are being treated like a second class citizen? That is the reason I left the church even though they are better than most religions in my opinion only. I feed the poor too. I came from a Catholic orphanage so why would I feel so discriminated against if it were all so touchy feely good?

  • colleen

    "I don’t want to extend women the same choice, because I know what
    living with that choice is like-and I don’t wish it on anyone."

     

    This isn’t true. What you know is your experiences, not the experiences of all or even most women. In other words, your experiences are no more universal than your religious beliefs.

  • invalid-0

    Anonymous,
    I joined the Catholic church in 2007 after attending the RCIA program. You are right that the sex abuse by some priests was inexusable and just evil. Keep in mind that it was a person(priest) who did it, not THE CHURCH. Now, eyes should have been open and it should have been dealt with in a better way, and sooner, nonetheless, the CHURCH does not condone or promote sexual abuse by priests. There is now a training program that ALL clergy and volunteers, teachers within the Catholic community must attend before they can be in contact with children, and there must ALWAYS be at least two trained adults present at all times, no matter what. It is called VIRTUS.
    I do not feel at all like a second class citizen. I was a TRAIN WRECK for a great portion of my life. Now that I walk a life in communion with Christ, my life gets better everyday. I find freedom in the “Rules” of being Catholic. It is a wonderful religion, it is the church that our Lord founded! How amazing that it is still here!
    There is a great site you may want to visit sometime:
    catholicscomehome dot org.
    At the very least, pray the Rosary on it- keep doing that and take your concerns to our Lady.
    I will pray for you.
    God bless you!

  • invalid-0

    Jesus has and will always be my hero. He was with me when I was alone in the orphanage and is with me now that I am alone in the world as a single divorced woman of a wonderful daughter. She is my life. I had wonderful parents as an adopted child. My mother died the day I got engaged. She had a massive stroke. My father died 13 years later and my only uncle died 2 weeks before my dad. My huband left me for another women and my dog ran away from home because my abusive husband beat her. I guess you get the drift. Like an old cowboys song. I do not trust or even like men so will never go back to the Church but will always love Jesus He was the only man in the bible who treated women as equals. Today is ash wednesday and so begins my annual sacrifice for Him and worth every bit! Thank you for praying for me. I will pray for you too and hope your experience is better than mine was.

  • aspen-baker

    Thanks for responding Lisa.  One of the first things I noticed after my own abortion was that there seemed to be two groups of women who have had abortions – pro-life women who regret it, and pro-choice women who don’t – and that somehow these groups saw each other as the enemy.  This hurts my heart, deeply.  What I really want is for us to listen and learn from each other.  You may not be like the other women here, and you do share something in common with them. And there are many others here who may have more in common with you than you know, but who aren’t public with their story. Judgment and blaming are big parts of why women will chose to keep their story to themselves.  That is why listening and understanding is so important.  

     

    Regret is real and hard and can stay in your life for many, many years.  I also believe that healing is possible and I have heard from many women, as I’m guessing you have as well, who have found peace and a way to reconcile their pain. I want that for every woman like you.

     

    My pro-voice work with Exhale is about creating support and respect for women like you, and others who have had abortions, across the range of experiences, values and beliefs.  What we have in common is the need to be seen and heard.   

  • invalid-0

    Aspen,
    I have attended Rachel’s Vineyard and that began my healing process. I do not know if one can ever be fully “healed” from abortion, but I have fully faced my abortions and am continuing the healing journey through activism and speaking out. I am part of the Silent No More Awareness campaign. I will ALWAYS regret my abortions, I do not see how I could ever NOT regret taking human life. It isn’t something you can just one day not regret having done. That doesn’t mean I will not have joy in my life, it just means I will always regret taking another human life. I have to say, my own belief about pro-abortion women who have had abortions is that they do not want to face the reality of what they have done. To do so is for your world to come crashing down on you with the realization that you have killed a human person in the safest place that would be known to them. Period. Now, I understand what it is like to be in that place very well. It is a ‘safe’ place, where you tell yourself you were a victim of your circumstances and oh thank God I had the choice. Like I said in another response- this debate is all about how you choose to look at it. The problem with that is IT DOESN’T MATTER whether or not you choose to deny it, that beating heart is a life, and before that it was still simply growing into that beating heart.
    Science has proven it no matter how much people choose to deny it.
    Like I said, say, “Women deserve the choice to kill their unborn child” and
    “I am glad I had the choice to murder my child in my womb so I could finish college” or
    “I am relieved that I have the option to murder my fetus so I do not have to deliver a baby I cannot afford”

    When abortion is not candy coated and glossed over, it sounds different, doesn’t it?

  • invalid-0

    I will happily sit down with the ONE PERCENT of all women who want to abort due to rape or incest. You sit down with the ONE PERCENT health of the mother cases, and who gets to sit down with the other 98% that are convenience only abortions?

  • aspen-baker

    Many callers to Exhale’s talkline have also attended retreats with Rachels Vineyard and have benefitted from that experience.  I agree with you, regret and healing can be lifelong journey’s, and its never about arriving at a static place in time, as in today, "I am healed."   I am glad to hear that you can relate to other women’s experiences, having been there yourself, but I think we disagree about one thing, and that is what it means to truly understand others, and have empathy for them.  I believe you when you tell me you regret your abortion and I believe women when they say they did their best.  I believe that what women say is true for them (even if I may disagree with it or not like it).  I want to be believed, I want you to be believed, and I want every other woman to be believed. For me, this isn’t about glossing over the reality of what abortion is, it is about understanding each person who experienced one.  If there is to be any change on this issue, this is where I believe it will come from, not from attacking or judging each other. Thanks for the dialogue, Lisa, I appreciate it. 

  • invalid-0

    Aspen,
    What do you mean by ‘change on this issue’? Are you saying that you would like to see abortion unavailable, or against the law, or reduced, or still a choice to be had for whoever wants it for all time? Do you want women to know that it is not a good choice, or is a good choice, just for them to decide?
    I will never attack a woman because she aborted, or wants to abort. Speaking the truth is not attacking, but, it can FEEL like an attack if you are in denial about what the REAL issue is, no?
    An abortion is: The purposeful killing of a human life at a point where that life has absolutely no power to stop the killing of it, in the safest place that it will ever find on this earth, it’s mothers womb.
    Do you agree with this statement?
    It is a true statement, yet the wording of it is what will make women feel attacked. The word ‘killing’.
    I will never ever be able to both regret my own killing of my unborn children, and at the same time pat another post-abortive woman on the back to comfort her in her denial of what has happened. That hinders a TRUE healing journey. I do not agree that healing of a symptom rather than the real issue is of any benefit to anyone, for any reason. The woman also deserves to MOURN that baby, mourn the loss of her baby whom she will never hold in her arms, never provide comfort for. It takes pure honesty to be able to do that.
    My hope is that not another woman would choose abortion for any reason because it ends the life of the unborn, and it also takes a large chunk of the mother’s life as she spends the rest of her life contemplating the abortion.
    I thank you too, Aspen for this forum for women to discuss this! It is so important for all ideas to be heard and shared without being filtered. Thank you so much!

  • mellankelly1

    I will happily sit down with the ONE PERCENT of all women who want to abort due to rape or incest

    And what do you believe that will accomplish?  I’ve terminated a rape-related pregnancy and I’d do it again without question.  I know a surprising number of women who have become pregnant as a result of rape.  The majority of the women I’ve met over the past 15+ years terminated their rape-related pregnancies and are only too happy to fight for the right of any other woman to have that choice.  Several of the women I’ve met have gestated, given birth and opted to adopt out… I do know one woman who chose to gestate, give birth and raise her child.  None of these choices were easy for these women to make, and All of these women are thankful to have been able to make this decision for themselves; and most importantly, not one of them would ever dream of taking that choice away from another woman. 

    I’m also wondering why the circumstances surrounding the intercourse would make a difference as the zygote, embryo and/or fetus would be identical regardless.  And as for women who have had their health compromised by a pregnancy… the only person these women need "sit down with" are their medical doctors.

  • invalid-0

    “Keep in mind that it was a person(priest) who did it, not THE CHURCH.”

    It was hundreds of Priests in the US alone, the abuse was a world wide phenomena and went on for generations. Indeed it still is ongoing and new cases are still being uncovered in the US and everywhere else the RCC is established.
    What the Church hierarchy did was cover up and, in many cases, enable the rape of children, boys and girls. The hierarchy was/is complicit in what, in any other context, would be labeled pedophile rings. Men and women have deservedly gone to prison for far less than what, say, Cardinal Law did to enable and cover up the rapes of hundreds of innocent children (and by children I mean actual children not ungestated blastocysts and fetuses.) And, of course, Law got a promotion and now lives at the Vatican where he is waited on my Mexican Nuns. Some religion.
    Many of us care about actual children deeply. Early sexual abuse damages and cripples the psyches of the victims their entire lives. Even amongst the inmate population in prisons pedophiles are regarded as the lowest of the low and yet the hierarchy of The Church cared so little they covered it up and enabled their pedophiles. You’re welcome to listen to men whose moral compass and understanding of human sexuality and spirituality is that deranged and clueless but I would strongly suggest to anyone thinking of joining the RCC to read the contents of this group of .pdf’s while remembering that this is just one out of dozens of investigations in the US alone:

    http://www.philadelphiadistrictattorney.com/pages/1/index.htm

  • aspen-baker

    Hi Lisa,

     

    This might be the longest online discussion I’ve had with any one person.  We got a marathon session going here.  

     

    In our back and forth I was reminded about the way personal experiences with abortion get stereotyped and understood.  There is this idea that women who don’t regret their abortions are somehow "in denial" of the truth or their personal pain, while women like you who do regret their abortions and have found healing and forgiveness from God are somehow "brainwashed" or "manipulated" by others.  Which stereotype you believe depends upon which side of the political issue you find yourself on. 

     

    I don’t believe either.   I don’t believe that you are brainwashed or manipulated – I believe you speak your truth.  I give that same level of credit and belief to women who say their decision was best – I believe they speak their truth.  I don’t think they are in denial.

     

    When I talk about bringing change on the issue, this is what I mean. I want to transform this conflict, a conflict that pits women with a shared experience against each other and stereotypes (in one way or the other) all women who have had abortions.  This is personal and hurtful and we can do better. We should listen to each other.

     

    I will be posting my second article in my series "peace for the abortion war" within the next week.  I write much more directly about what I mean when I talk about change.  I hope you come back and read it.  I hope you comment too!

    • invalid-0

      Answer Lisa’s question. You want to feed off of other’s emotions you narcissistic baby killer, or have an actual dialogue. Look at the women you are surrounding yourself with – they are walking corpses. This is what you are becoming… You’d better listen to Lisa!

      …And Lisa – great work. It is nice to see His Light in your confession and words of advice and wisdom to the lost souls on this website. I know it must be hard for you everyday, but He loves you and so do your children – ALL of them.

      You people could learn a lot from Lisa’s courageousness.

  • invalid-0

    And, of course, Law got a promotion and now lives at the Vatican where he is waited on my Mexican Nuns. Some religion.

    Bingo. So long as Bernard Law continues to enjoy sanctuary in the Vatican, outside the reaches of U.S. legal jurisdiction, the Roman Catholic Church remains unequivocally complicit in the sexual abuse of minors. Pope Benedict inherits that culpability by continuing to allow Law to take up residence in his protection.

    Every time I hear the Church make a pronouncement on sexual morality, I remember that. I laugh at their delusion of righteousness, and lament that so many people willingly give them that power nonetheless.

  • invalid-0

    The point is that rape incest and health of the mother is ALWAYS used to defend abortion however these cases only make up 2% (probably a generous%)of all abortions.
    So, why do pro-aborts always use this as their fall back argument?
    I know many pro-lifers who would be thrilled if abortion was made legal only in those circumstances, an not legal in the rest of the reasons given to abort.
    I just will keep praying that you all see the light one day that it just ain’t right to kill people. For any reason. At any age. At all! Ever! You my dear are here, so I guess you escaped and now get to chose who dies. I would say, “Who died and made you God”, but another problem is many of you do not even believe in God, so that never hits home with you. What a filthy mess this whole thing is.

  • invalid-0

    I know it was hundreds. The point: IT WAS NOT THE CHURCH ITSELF that did the behavior. I know, you don’t understand what I mean by that but other Catholics will.
    Another point, umm….pedophilia is something that occurs everywhere, everyday, and I myself was a victim of it as a child. The Catholic church does not own the rights to the problem, they were just publicized heavily about it. The RCC as you put it is the church founded by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and has withstood over 2000 years on this earth. I love my Catholic faith.

  • invalid-0

    I am curious…do you have a faith you practice, or do you believe in God at all?

  • invalid-0

    Aspen, do you agree with the statement I made on what abortion is in my last comment? Please respond.

    And, is there “a truth” in addition to “your truth” and “my truth” ?

  • invalid-0

    I know many pro-lifers who would be thrilled if abortion was made legal only in those circumstances, an not legal in the rest of the reasons given to abort.

    Yes, because pro-lifers are under the mistaken impression that the circumstances of how the pregnancy came about makes any difference.

    I just will keep praying that you all see the light one day that it just ain’t right to kill people. For any reason. At any age. At all! Ever!

    Lisa, you are praying for us to FORCE WOMEN TO CARRY UNWANTED PREGNANCIES TO TERM. We will never accept that, and will continue to fight for every woman to have choice—you included—until society learns to respect women as equals of men, and anti-choice activism finally falls by the political wayside.

  • colleen

    The point: IT WAS NOT THE CHURCH ITSELF that did the behavior

     

    The point is that the church hierarchy  either raped children or enabled and covered up the rapes.Their behavior was and is inexcusable.

     

    I know, you don’t understand what I mean by that but other Catholics will.

     

    right. stupid me.

     

    pedophilia is something that occurs everywhere, everyday, and I myself was a victim of it as a child.


    Indeed. Did you know that women who were sexually abused as children often react by being promiscuous, failing to protect themselves and doing things like having multiple abortions in their teens and 20’s?   I am so sorry that happened to you. It was wrong, it was not your fault and I hope that those responsible, including your mother if she failed to protect you, are in jail where they belong.. No child should have that happen to them.
    I and everyone else here is very aware of how common pedophilia is. And guess what, I don’t listen to lectures on ‘morality’ from secular pedophiles or those who enable and excuse them either.

    "they were just publicized heavily about it."
     
     

     You’re claiming they got bad press? That they were unfairly singled out? You’re claiming that the public should not know?

  • invalid-0

    Listen-women and men are different. Men cannot carry babies, women can. You are degrading women by wanting to make them equal to men. You know what? Here’s a much more powerful argument: I am so much more powerful than a man because I am woman! I can fully grow and nurture a new life INSIDE MY BODY!!! HOLY COW! AND…give birth, AND THEN, feed that baby from my breast!!! YES!!! And, I could do all of that while, talking on the phone, making breakfast and doing the dishes…..ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!!!!! C’mon ladies….that is clearly NOT equality, because we all know a man can come no-where close to that kind of multi-tasking. Now, please do not mistake these tasks as servitude(I know someone will) You could use any sort of example here, the woman who is feeding her infant from her breast while washing her car in the driveway that she earned with her six-figure income that she earns while talking on the phone with the people that work for her in the business she owns….WHATEVER…. In MY view, we are so much more capable than men in many regards because of this unique gift that God has given us, the ability to complete the act that sex with a man brought about-the making of a complete human life! This pro-abortion argument is the one that is anti-woman, you are trying to take away our power. I do not EVER want equality with a man, if equality means dumbing down my superior ability over him! :) Think about what I am saying! THINK!!

    • invalid-0

      Menial work. What planet did you come from? Women produce over 30% of the gross national product. So maybe if men start payinf us 400,000 a year to do all that. Maybe some of us would change our minds. It is called RESPECT! Lisa! we get none! Got it?

  • invalid-0

    ooooh….you got me Colleen, you were paying attention and so you were able to make the connection that in reality, the problems that were caused by my abortions WERE REALLY caused by the sexual abuse in my formative years. (I am sure, truthfully, my issues were a combination of childhood and abortions, to be able to truly seperate which issues came from where is probably impossible since there were SO MANY issues, however, I know that I regret my abortions and that they caused me pain-period. MY TRUTH, eh?)

    Aren’t you also going to talk about the connections between sexual abuse in the formative years and the odds of abortion being chosen by the victim later in her life?

    FYI-there was never any penetration. I was victimized by kissing and feeling, and if I had not used my good sense to stay away from them in alone-type situations, and were I not a very strong type little girl, it would of gone farther. I believe I was still a victim, even though there was not penetration. Maybe this is arguable, I don’t know.

    PLEASE stop saying I am claiming something I am not. I Do not agree with nor condone the behavior of the priests that were pedophiles, nor do I agree with or condone the cover up. I believe it should have been shouted from the rooftops that these priests were hurting children. I believe they should have the book thrown at them, and that everyone involved should be held accountable.

    What I also believe is that people who make up the church are just that-PEOPLE, humans that sin. THAT is what I mean by THE CHURCH not doing the behavior, as in the church itself and what it stands for did not commit the sin, the pain on these children.

    I am in NO WAY trying to call you stupid about not understanding unless you are a Catholic; what I am trying to convey is that if you are a faithful practicing Catholic, you understand that the CHURCH and people who make up the church are two different things. You may understand that statement, but a Catholic who practices in the Catholic context may have a better understanding.

    I also do not beliefe it was BAD press-it was press, period. My point is that some bad things that happen are given alot of press, and the same bad things done by others are given none if next to no press. That is true on both sides of any argument, no? I wish there was more coverage and damning on the protestant churches this occurs in, as well as the teachers, fathers, uncles etc. that committ these acts on children everyday, DON”T YOU!!???

  • invalid-0

    This pro-abortion argument is the one that is anti-woman, you are trying to take away our power.

    Um… so giving women the choice to decide whether they want to use this “power” or not is actually depriving them of that power? Okaaaay….

    Think about what I am saying! THINK!!

    Oh, yes. It reminds me of a country where women are held in extremely high regard, as the guardians of social morality, childbearing, and all that holy and good. Where every man is tasked with the duty to protect women from harm.

    The name of the country? Saudi Arabia.

  • invalid-0

    C’mon…don’t leave out the part where the woman in Saudi Arabia is also multi-tasking the washing of the car that she earned with the six-figure income from the business that she owns while she feeds her baby at her breast…in Saudia Arabia that happens? She has the right to own a business in Saudia Arabia?

    I am seeing the root of the pro-abort argument: man haters.

    A feeling of inferiority for some odd reason, turned into a “do no injustice to me! I feel so inferior that I will retaliate by killing!”

    Whatever….

    More like a contempt for that man God, your creator.

    Yes, we pray for you. Your Lord still loves you regardless and so do I because it is what he asks of me.

    I certainly pray that you wake up from this dream, as I did, and admit to yourself what abortion actually is and what abortion actually does, so that you may be set free.

  • otaku1960

     It made my HAIR hurt! 

    I’m a pro choice woman and I love men. Particularly those who are smart enough to know women are capable of making their own reproductive decisions.  You are intensely sick to believe women choose abortion because they hate men or despise God. I’m fully awake and I know what abortion is and what it does: a medical procedure which ends a pregnancy.  Wake up, a lil’ Lisa, wake up!

     

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

    • invalid-0

      whilst you kill his child is NO MAN at all! You have never known a REAL MAN!

  • otaku1960

     do anti-abortion people believe pro choicers don’t know what abortion is?  We know very well what abortion is and what it does. Apparantly you believe other women are too stupid to know what they are doing, and that is really insulting. Bans on abortion don’t "protect" women, they do just the opposite by forcing women to resort to "underground" abortions or attempt self abortions.  One last thing, re-writing someone else’s comment to twist meanings is really tacky.

     

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • invalid-0

    otaku1960, which comment was re-written? Which comment and by whom are you referring?

  • invalid-0

    It is a medical procedure which kills a human life.

    You love men who will care nothing about a life that they may help you create and what you will do about it if neither of you wants that life.

    Just keepin’ it real.

    It doesn’t make any sense why you pro-aborts REFUSE to just say what it is. It is an intentional killing of a human being in what is supposed to be the safest place that human being would ever know on this earth.

    You are all living in such complete denial of this FACT.

    You have all been TRICKED into looking at abortion as all about your right to choose…..it is about your right to KILL YOUR BABIES!! Wake up people!!

    BTW, what does ‘your grievance shall be avenged’ mean? Why do you sign with that?

  • mellankelly1

    The point is that rape incest and health of the mother is ALWAYS used to defend abortion however these cases only make up 2% (probably a generous%)of all abortions.

    I would offer that the "point" is that the conceptus of non-consensual sex is in no way (physically or morally) different than the concpetus of consensual sex.  I believe that is a question that many on either side of this debate would like an answer for… why the exception?  I suppose the ability to see one pregnancy as different than another based solely on the circumstances surrounding the sex is a difficult point of view to rationalize, as evidenced by our exchange. 

    I know many pro-lifers who would be thrilled if abortion was made legal only in those circumstances, an not legal in the rest of the reasons given to abort

    I know many civil people who wish to reduce the number of abortions (and consider themselves "anti-abortion") and not one of them would concede that the zygote/embryo/fetus of consensual sex is in any way different than the zygote/embryo/fetus of non-consensual sex.   As there is no way to differentiate the conceptus in either of these circumstances, it would appear as if the real value is being put on the intercourse, not the zygote, embryo and/or fetus… which leads the people who read these comments (about exceptions for rape/incest related pregnancy) to question the motives of those making them. 

    I just will keep praying that you all see the light one day that it just ain’t right to kill people

    I’ve yet to read a comment (by those who identify themselves as "pro-choice") that reflect the sentiment that it’s okay to kill people.  As a matter of fact, many supporters of choice believe that it is never okay to kill a person and as such are opposed to the death penalty and war.  I think where you and those who are pro-choice (including myself) differ is in what you consider a person to be… each individual has her/his own personal beliefs when it comes to the nature of personhood and I just happen to have beliefs which differ from yours.  And that is perfectly okay.

    but another problem is many of you do not even believe in God

    First, it is not a "problem" if a person does not believe in God.  Secondly, I have faith which allows me to believe that God has been with me since before I was conceived and will be with me long after I’ve left this earth.  God was with me when I decided to terminate my pregnancy… God was with me while I terminated my pregnancy.  And guess what?  God is perfectly fine with the choices I’ve made… every single choice I’ve made has brought me closer to God and I do not have any regrets.  I’m sorry that you were so hurt by your choices and I’m sorry that you regret having had those choices, but I do not believe your personal life experience should dictate whether any other person should be able to decide the best course of action within the realm of their own life.  And I pray that you will somehow find the peace that you are so desperately seeking.

  • invalid-0

    As there is no way to differentiate the conceptus in either of these circumstances, it would appear as if the real value is being put on the intercourse, not the zygote, embryo and/or fetus… which leads the people who read these comments (about exceptions for rape/incest related pregnancy) to question the motives of those making them.

    Exactly. Rape alone blows apart the pro-life argument as it is commonly articulated, because it short-circuits the whole “oh, she had sex, so she needs to take responsibility” tack.

    Pro-lifers are left with a choice to either (1) allow abortion in cases of rape, effectively agreeing that it is just for a child to pay the ultimate price for the sins of his/her father, or (2) disallow it, and bring about a world where rape is a viable reproduction strategy—you know, like it was back in the days of Genghis Khan.

    I’m just glad that misogyny in this country isn’t so bad that option 2 is palatable to the majority. It could certainly be worse. Look at Nicaragua.

  • invalid-0

    Do you realise you are omitting an even more important part of that? The fact it only applies to those B-O-R-N or naturalised in the US of A. Psh. Stop taking things out of context for your own agenda.

  • invalid-0

    You are right about where God was and when. Was God also with your baby when it was sucked out of you? Yes. I am curious, do you think that one of the reasons God put you on this earth is that you could have a hand in killing the baby that he put in your womb? This is a serious question, please don’t denounce it or give a sarcastic answer. In regards to your “conceptus”, pro-lifers ultimately want NO abortions. What I am saying is, that every time pro-lifers say, “NO ABORTIONS”, pro-aborts say, “what about in the cases of rape, incest, health of the mother?” Why do pro-aborts always turn the argument around like that? It was NEVER the argument of true pro-life people about “conceptus” they want “none”. Please do not try to argue that this is untrue, we all know it is. It is the FALLBACK argument of the pro-abortion side. Pro-lifers think THERE IS NO EXCEPTION. TRUE PRO-LIFERS, not fence riders. Fence -riders that call themselves PRO-CHOICE in the cases of rape incest health of the mother.
    You all can also say whatever you want about the real motives of whoever. The truth is, NOBODY is against having sex. I LOOOOOVE sex I am ALL for it. I am just a reasonable person who understands that if I am not ready, willing and able to have a baby, that I better not have sex because that can create a baby. To brush this off as some crazy notion is absurd! Why do you people look for all ways to completely get out of any kind of personal responsibility? You can’t just go around killing innocent human beings because you have no self control, and no respect of life to let that baby live regardless of your place in life. As far as God goes, I have yet to run into a PRO-ABORTION person who either isn’t an athiest, or doesn’t have a “My God, your God” thing going on….There is one God. In general, people who FEAR the judgement that God will bestow upon them (RE: THE BIBLE) are concerned for all life-especially the unborn. In general, people who DO NOT FEAR God’s judgement and who are NOT RE:THE BIBLE are happily but ignorantly pro-abortion. THAT is the problem with not believing in GOD.

  • invalid-0

    What did I take out of context? It is unconstitutional to kill the pre-born. THEY ARE ALIVE. The Constitution protects LIFE. YOU pro-aborts are the ones who mangle the Constitution for your agenda. It DOES NOT SAY YOU HAVE TO BE BORN. Please, show us where it does.

    • mellankelly1

       The Constitution protects LIFE

      Actually the Constitution protects the Citizens of the US (and yes, one need be born or naturalized in the US in order to become a US citizen.) The governments job is to protect it’s citizens, including the pregnant ones (even if their pregnancies are unwanted.)  IF the Constitution protected "LIFE" we wouldn’t eat or wear plant and/or animal LIFE.  If the Constitution protected only that LIFE which could be described as "human", the sperm and ova would be every bit as protected as the fertilized egg (provided these things all came from people.) 

       

  • invalid-0

    I’ll give you the “intentional killing of a human life” bit, if you’ll give me that abortion is “the intentional killing of a human life that resides inside my body“. And as I get to decide who lives in my house and who rides in my car, I also get to decide who or what lives in my body. And if I don’t want it there, then it’s gone.

    If that sounds heartless to you, then fine, don’t have an abortion and don’t “kill a human life”. But quite frankly, I know what abortion is, at every stage of gestation, and I really don’t care. Because if I don’t want it inside my body, then it doesn’t get to stay there. And death may be an unfortunate side effect of that, but so what.

  • harry834

    I didn’t see a response on what you plan to do to get yourself prosecuted for murder…both you and the women who have had abortions. And remember, being "remorseful" isn’t a get-out-of-jail free card.

    Remember, Nazism was perfectly legal, but we found a way to successfully prosecute them. Check out their punishments.

    Remember, no matter what you say about us, YOU did your murder. The doctor helped, but YOU paid him to do it. Murder-for-hire is still murder.

    So, how will you see yourself, and your fellow women, prosecuted? 

  • invalid-0

    Harry scary, when they come and get me I will go. When it is declared illegal I will go. When I have officially done something against the law, I will go. I admit that what I have done is wrong, and if it comes to pass that retroactively I have murdered by law, then I will lawfully go. This thing you are doing is non-sensical. Don’t be a tool, fool.

  • invalid-0

    KS, yeah, too bad God couldn’t come up with a way to get those dang humans to gestate somewhere other than a woman’s dang ol’body. No Doubt!

    Thanks for at least admitting that it is a human life, no one else will.

  • mellankelly1

    "Emotive nonsense, hyperbole and ad hominem…" 

    Oh, dear Lisa… I was certainly blessed, my babies are all perfectly fine and healthy (thank God) although, they’re not so much "babies" anymore (tweens & teens.)  And yes, they each have faith which allows them to believe that God is with each one of them (giving each of them a beautiful and very personal connection to God.)  They were also fortunate enough to live in a house where their parents instilled the values of empathy and humility in them from birth.  I consider myself lucky to call them my children.

    This is a serious question, please don’t denounce it or give a sarcastic answer

    Although I did answer your "serious question", anyone reading your diatribe will plainly see the rantings of a woman who is hurting so deeply… I wish you all of the best in your journey, Lisa.

    Why do pro-aborts always turn the argument around like that?

    I’m sorry, but wishing not only to control the bodies of women, but the content of this debate is just a little bit control-freaky, wouldn’t you agree?  Certainly instances of rape-related pregnancies are valid, why should we not talk about something simply because you have no answer?  You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs regarding rape-related pregnancy,  incest, life of mother, and abortion in general, but if you wish to disagree and be taken seriously, you’re going to need to conjure up just the slightest bit of respect (humility and/or empathy) and it would do you well to look outside of your personal life experience to see that people have had experiences which differ greatly from yours.

    Pro-lifers think THERE IS NO EXCEPTION. TRUE PRO-LIFERS, not fence riders. Fence -riders that call themselves PRO-CHOICE in the cases of rape incest health of the mother

    Oh good God, now you wish to control what it is each individual is allowed to identify themselves as… tell me Lisa, will you be the person in charge of deciding the course of all of these women’s pregnancies on a case-by-case basis also?  What (or Who), exactly, do you fancy yourself?

    I am just a reasonable person who understands that if I am not ready, willing and able to have a baby, that I better not have sex because that can create a baby

    … To brush this off as some crazy notion is absurd!

    Fabulous for you and certainly I’ve never said that was a crazy notion.  However, I am just a reasonable person who understands that I do not want to have any more children and so have taken measures to ensure that I do not become pregnant.  If, however, I do become pregnant, I will terminate my pregnancy if I so choose (and without question if it is a rape-related pregnancy.)  However, I will continue to have sex with my husband without even being open to the possibility of becoming pregnant or carrying a pregnancy to term.  How you feel about my sex  or any resulting pregnancy is utterly irrelevant within the realm of my life.

    There is one God.

    Ha!  We agree on something.  There is one God… God is a perfect,  loving intellect.  You can certainly feel free to fear God, I just chose not to, and that’s okay too.  And your Bible was not penned by God and is certainly not inerrant.  And just to reiterate… you are free to believe that God suffers from the emotions of Man (like vengeance, hate, revenge, jealously, etc.), I just happen to believe that God is perfection, and that really is okay too.  Good luck with your journey, Lisa.

  • invalid-0

    You did not answer my question. Please do not act like you did.

  • invalid-0

    Good point Harry834 (or should I say Harry Scary)…this could be an expansion on CPC services…instead of ‘post-abortive’ counseling which falls short of actually treating abortion like murder…they could set up a confinement where the women who belief abortion is murder actually act like it and commit themselves.

  • harry834

    A white man murdered a black man in hate…then tried to find forgiveness in the church. He was accepted, but then what does a judge decide? Can murderers escape punishment just because they say "God" forgives them? What about athiest murderers? Or religious murderers who don’t believe God works that way? Or who believe in spirits rather than a "God"?

    Are we to have two different criminal penalties for believers in God and everyone else???

    I thought all were equal under the law.

  • otaku1960

    Amanda Marcotte said: [quote]I know it pains some commenters here to be reminded that women are  humans who make choices for good reasons,[unquote]

    You rewrote the first part and then added:[quote]"who decide to kill their babies for good reasons."[unquote]

     That is what I mean by "twisting", you put your personal interpretation into Amanda’s mouth. That is what I mean by "tacky".

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • otaku1960

     We’ve hardly met and already you are making suppositions about me. Your posts make it quite obvious you wouldn’t know reality if it sat in your lap and called you "mommy".  What other conclusion can I come to when you keep re-hashing the same old anti-abortion talking points?

    1) We’re too stupid to know what abortion is

    2) We’re living in denial

    3) We’re gullible and easily fooled.

    4) We’re asleep

    It’s enough to make a cat laugh.

     

    What does my signature mean?  Well, I think I’ll keep it a secret and let your figure it out since you’re so much smarter than us dumb pro-choicers. *snark*

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • invalid-0

    I know, I intentionally did that because that is what “choice” means. The true words that should be used sound awful, and so pro-aborts use the word “choice” to make it sound purty, and clean, and sweet and nice. To make something that is bad sound good. That is why I think the pro-abort argument is based in denial and avoidance of the truth: they won’t use the correct words to accurately describe what is occurring.

    • otaku1960

      I call horse pucky on you,Lisa!  You don’t have the right to redefine words to suit your agenda. What you did was dishonest and tacky. We pro – choicers call it "choice" because it is ACCURATE.  We (meaning other pro choicers and myself) aren’t afraid to use accurate words, you just like to repeat that lame accusation again and again. The only explanation for your immature behavior is you lack a coherent anti-abortion argument. Why else would you sound like a broken record? 

       

      Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • invalid-0

    Never called anyone here stupid. Calling you out because you refuse to call it what it is. That is what it means to be in denial, when you KNOW what something is, but REFUSE to call it what it is. Refuse to face up.
    Should I come up with a new talking point, like the one where abortion is now a “matter of the heart” for crying out loud? Ok, I’ll play along…..why is abortion a “matter of the heart”? Explain this from a pro-abortion perspective, please.

    • otaku1960

       you’ve said a law was needed to "protect" women because they didn’t know what they are getting into when they have an abortion. Those statements imply women are too stupid to understand.  The further claim you are "calling me out" (when I’ve repeatedly said I do know what abortion is) is a 12 on the 1-10 scale of ludicrous statements. 

      I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. Abortion is termination of a pregnancy. That is the whole truth and if you don’t like my answer, well you can just lump it.

       I don’t follow when you ask me to explain from a "pro abortion" perspective.  I’m not pro abortion, I don’t know ANYONE on this site who is pro abortion, nor have ever met a "pro abortion" person. This must be another chimera from  your fevered imagination, a strawman you can knock down again and again for your childish amusement.

       *sigh* Just grow up, Lisa. Please grow up. Don’t claim you are grown up because the tone of your posts is clearly immature.

       

      Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • invalid-0

    There is a difference between human life and actual personhood, though. An abortion destroys the potential for personhood, but it doesn’t kill an actual, living, breathing person.

    And as I’m not mandated by law to give blood, kidneys, or the use of any other organs to my actual, born children, I surely should not be mandated by law to actually make them. And we’re talking about the law of the US here, which is secular and applies to everyone living in the US, not any kind of religious laws, which only apply to those who subscribe to particular religious views, which many of us do not.

    • invalid-0

      KS,
      An abortion absolutely destroys a living human, a person. To say it is a potential person, or potential human, is to say that it could at some point be anything other that a human or person. In fact-it can only grow into a larger version of what it already is-a human being, a living person. This living human has a heart like yours and mine which will begin beating in a mere 22 days after conception. A beating heart clearly indicates that the human in the womb is alive.

      • colleen

        "To say it is a potential person, or potential human, is to say that it
        could at some point be anything other that a human or person."

         

        Pardon but just because you pretend to speak for God and have clearly never studied logic you still cannot reinvent the meanings of words  or rules of normal english usage. A blastocyst is a potential human in precisely the same sense a walnut is a potential tree. And most walnuts, like most blastocysts do not mature. I would say that they ‘die’ but, then they really weren’t alive to begin with,

        Indeed when you folks call a fetus or blastocyst a ‘baby’ and wax on endlessly about your faith based notions of science you instantly marginalize yourselves and sound like hysterical and slightly unbalanced children.

        Besides, aren’t Catholics supposed to give up texting for Lent?

         

         

  • invalid-0
  • mellankelly1

    You did not answer my question. Please do not act like you did.

    Simply because I did not answer the way you want me to does not mean that I did not answer.  You’re seriously going to have to get a grip on that whole control thing.

    • invalid-0

      My question was:
      ..do you think that one of the reasons God put you on this earth is that you could have a hand in killing the baby that he put in your womb?

      I will rephrase the question so that you might answer it since you don’t want to admit to the word “baby” and “killing”:

      **Do you think that one of the reasons God put you on this earth is that you could have a hand in removing whatever was residing in your womb, that you did not want in your womb, by abortion?

      **For clarity, do you believe that God had any hand in the creation of the thing you had removed from your womb by abortion, and do you believe that God had any hand in the creation of your two lovely children who are alive on this earth? Of course, also did he have a hand in creating you?

      **You keep mentioning some kind of control issue you think I have-I just hope this isn’t an indication I am already getting under your skin. I mean, I just got here and I’m enjoying the conversation. I’d hate to be irritating you so soon.

      • mellankelly1

         Do you think that one of the reasons God put you on this earth is that you could have a hand in removing whatever was residing in your womb, that you did not want in your womb, by abortion?

        That’s like asking if God put me on the earth in order to be raped… what a silly statement to make and certainly there is no truth to either of those statements.  Again, you are free to believe that God controls us like tiny, little action figures but I believe that God bestowed upon us the gift of free will for a reason… and travels the road with us, no matter what path we take.  In addition (and to repeat) I believe that God is with every being forever (this would include long before we are born and long after we leave this world… you know, for-ever)

        PS. I have three children, not two.

  • harry834

    to leave a comment on this post. Surely he’s watching, the all-knowing guy.

    Why hasn’t "God" responded on this comment trail? Is he commenting on Facebook?

    ….I’m sorry: Is He commenting on Facebook?

    • mellankelly1

      Harry, I totally found God on Twitter (and I became a follower)

      http://twitter.com/god

      Seriously great tweets!!!

  • therealistmom

    … they have Lisa there working as a mouthpiece. Since she knows exactly what Jesus would think about abortion, exactly what is "right" in regards to Chruch history, etc… He/She/It apparently is speaking directly through her. Maybe she is a sock puppet for the Pope?

  • invalid-0

    The walnut will have to be planted and watered and cared for in order to advance into a tree. The blastocyst,in contrast, is what has already been planted. Left alone, that blastocyst will become the human in full embryo form, then a human in fetal form, and finally a born human baby. If left alone to grow and mature, the planted walnut will grow into a tree. If left alone to grow and mature, the blastocyst will grow into a baby human.

    I am not quite sure what you mean by, “and most walnuts, like mosts blastocysts do not mature”, this is something I am pretty sure you could never know for certain.

    This is pure science. Very simple, very real and true.

    And please -don’t forget- that the human heart begins beating 22 days after conception.

  • colleen

    "I am not quite sure what you mean by, "and most walnuts, like mosts

    blastocysts do not mature", this is something I am pretty sure you
    could never know for certain."

    A blastocyst is a fertilized egg that has not implanted in the uterine wall. What I mean when I say that most do not mature into zygotes and fetuses is just that. The majority of fertilized eggs (or, as you folks put it, ‘innocent little babies that cruel pro-choice women murder every day’)  fail to implant in the uterine wall and are naturally sloughed off in the course of normal menstruation. If ‘left alone’ a good many things can and do happen to prevent development. Spontaneous miscarriages happen, grotesque birth defects happen. but most fertilized eggs , even when contraceptives aren;t being used, do not implant and are expelled  And THAT is science and yes I can know that for certain.

    You’re welcome to believe that God puts children in your uterus. I do not share your belief. Otherwise I would have to believe that God puts babies in the uteri of little 9 year old raped girls and women who aren’t sure where their next meal is coming from.

  • invalid-0

    The only way to truly scientifically prove that “most blastocysts do not mature” would be to have every woman who is menstruating throughout her life have the product of her menstruation examined to find the fertilized eggs which have been sloughed off. So, I suppose this could be scientifically proven, but as it stands right now, you cannot prove this so that particular argument does not currently hold water. I do get what you are saying, though, and I will even agree that surely many fertilized eggs may not actually be implanted, but rather sloughed off during menstruation.

    ***The abortion argument is not about those particular blastocysts that do not naturally make it to implantation, of course. The pro-life movement is concerned with any and all sources which will un-naturally terminate (procured abortion) or un-naturally impede(any type of man-made contraception) human life. Women do not go to abortion providers to remove a blastocyst which has not implanted, nor do women who desperately want children go to their OB/GYN to stop their blastocysts from being sloughed so that they may implant.

    ***In addition, you said: “Spontaneous miscarriages happen” Of course this can and does occur. However, you are talking about an all natural occurance which may happen at some point during the total formation of a human life in the womb. The key word being, ‘natural’. Procured abortion is not a natural occurance that may happen during the formation of a human life in the womb. Using your example of the walnut and the tree, procured abortion of a forming human life in the womb is akin to a digging squirrel, or digging dog, or a human with a shovel coming along and digging the planted walnut out of the ground, thereby terminating it’s growth into a tree. However, the planted walnut might also be naturally terminated, for instance by drought or flooding, as the pre-born human may be naturally miscarried.

    ***Also, you said, “grotesque birth defects happen”. This can and does happen to many pre-born humans in the womb during their formation. Again, who are we to determine that one of these forming, pre-born humans are not worthy of life? Surely you are not saying that the many many born babies, children and adults alive on earth today, whose mothers chose to give them life despite a recommendation from their OB/GYN to terminate their pregnancy due to the “grotesque birth defects” that the forming human life in her womb had- should not have been born? “Grotesque birth defects” are clearly not the same concept or idea as “miscarriage”, yet you used them together as if they are one in the same. Just because a forming life in the womb may have a “grotesque birth defect” does not mean that it will be “miscarried”. As such, a forming pre-born human being with a “grotesque birth defect” can still be permitted to either naturally die in the womb, or naturally die after birth, or naturally die after few or many years of life on earth. Any human permitted to follow along in their natural creation and natural life is surely to die a natural death, and who are we as their fellow humans to determine who gets this right to life and who does not?

  • invalid-0

    Never acting to feed or shelter an infant also results in it dying a natural death too.

  • invalid-0

    Dismissing whats natural ends up leaving infants, the elderly and other people with dependencies vulnerable as many of the protections for their rights that are compelled by law actually override nature.

    And in general any medical care and the right to it, including pre-natal care, overrides nature. We simply don’t base rights or walk away from protecting someone based solely on whats natural….this ends up leaving the weakest and most vulnerable to die.

  • colleen

    "The only way to truly scientifically prove…."

    Look, you don’t have to believe me; either do the research or keep making a fool of yourself.  My error was confusing zygotes with blastocysts. Between 30 and 60% of zygotes fail to implant. It’s such common knowledge that it’s in wickipedia. I don’t have to prove it, the proof is established. Deal with it.

    The RCC  birth control argument is entirely about zygotes as are the brutally stupid arguments against stem cell research. We do NOT CARE what you and the Vatican and your protestant allies consider ‘natural’ or ‘unnatural’.

     My original objection was to your claim:

    "To say it is a potential person, or potential human, is to say that it
    could at some point be anything other that a human or person." 

    I was demonstrating that this is not true. Clearly any number of possibilities can and do occur. 

    "Again, who are we to determine that one of these forming, pre-born humans are not worthy of life?

     

    See, the question you should be answering is who are we to be answering this question for others we do not know, to force upon others our religion?  Your problem is that the Catholic church has zero credibility on any issue primarily affecting women or human sexuality.That’s one of the consequences of enabling and fostering institutionalized childhood sexual abuse.

  • mellankelly1

     The only way to truly scientifically prove that "most blastocysts do not mature" would be to have every woman who is menstruating throughout her life have the product of her menstruation examined to find the fertilized eggs which have been sloughed off.

    Right, and these studies have been done (as far back as 1988) and reflect that at least 25% (some studies reflect vastly larger percentages) of fertilized eggs fail to to survive six weeks.  Check out the link for yourself… unless you have some reason to question the validity of the National Institute Of Environmental Health Sciences.

  • invalid-0

    I agreed with the fact that ‘many’ are sloughed. What I was challenging was the word “most” that Colleen used as a basis for her argument. I made that clear in my response.

    “Most” is not by any stretch “25%”.

    • mellankelly1

      Oh, you must have missed this part…

      "The 25 percent early loss, when added to the clinical miscarriages that occur later, means that at least one-third of all embryos fail."

       

    • invalid-0

      and that particular study with the 25% only measures those that actually implant…not those that flush out prior to implantation.

  • invalid-0

    The wikipedia reference she refers to actually link to references that up to 70% do.

    • invalid-0

      Okay. I’ll bite. Where exactly does information contained in Wikipedia come from? Who puts it there?

  • invalid-0

    In this whole debate that you and I have been having regarding blastocysts, walnuts and human life formed in the womb, I have not brought up religion or God one single time. I have been using logic and science to argue what has already been scientifically determined. If bringing up religion and God is what makes one foolish in this particular debate between the two of us, then it is you who is foolish for bringing it up every. single. time.

    • colleen

      "I have not brought up religion or God one single time."

      Good lord. You’ve been using this blog to proselytize and bully  the pro-choice folks with some of the more objectionable aspects of Catholic  doctrine daily and for a couple of weeks now.

      "I have been using logic and science to argue what has already been scientifically determined."
       

       Had we actually been having a debate you would have noticed that it was your ignorance of science, lack of logic and shameless tendency  to butcher normal english usage  I was objecting to.

       

       

       

       

       

  • invalid-0

    Hmmm…

    but another problem is many of you do not even believe in God, so that never hits home with you.

    and FYI, the Front Page shows your comments not just on this thread but in the order you are posting them across all the threads with all the God, RCC, SATAN stuff in the comments.

  • invalid-0

    Thanks for the link to God Mellankelly1! I’m now a follower too!

  • invalid-0

    Did you also check and re-check the fact that the human heart of the human life in the human womb will begin beating in 22 days after conception? Have you checked and re-checked the fact that it has been scientifically determined that the forming human in the womb in it’s very earliest stages (even pre-heart beat at 22 days) has it’s very own set of unique DNA? It does not matter what occurs naturally to prevent a human life from forming in the womb. You can keep trying to argue these matters, but the argument of procured abortion to intentionally kill a forming human life in the womb has absolutely nothing to do with what can and does at times occur naturally to a forming human life in the womb.

    “I have noticed that everyone in favor of abortion has been born”-Ronald Reagan

    Again-nothing here about God or religion. The fact that you know I am a Catholic and I believe in Jesus Christ is irrelevent. This whole abortion argument can be completely argued on the side of choosing life without religious references because it is a human rights matter, and a civil rights matter, which can be scientifically proven and agued for based on logic and reason.

    ****BTW, Colleen, you can accuse me of alot of things, but misuse of the english language is not one of them.

  • invalid-0

    The free will of the rapist was used against you, and I am very sorry that happened to you. I agree with all statements you are making about our Creator being loving, being with us forever into eternity and before our conception and birth, etc. Just as your rapist imposed his God given free will upon you, you imposed your God given free will upon the forming human in your womb. God was with you when you used your free will, and God was with the forming human that you aborted. ******God does not control us, but he has a plan for our souls, ALL souls, and sometimes evil and the use of free will disrupts his plans****** The difference between you and I in how we view our abortions, is I now, because of my belief in a merciful God that will ultimately judge me, wonder….what did God have planned for the souls that I willfully aborted, and how would those souls been of impact to the good of my soul? That is where my regret comes in. You do not believe that God is one that you will have to answer to in any way, so you do not view your abortion as a thing to regret, but as a thing that was necessary and for your benefit. Now-I am not at all trying to put words in your mouth or thoughts in your head. I am just trying to understand your belief in God and how it relates to your abortion, because it is very different from my own belief, yet we both proclaim that there is one God. I mean absolutely no attack or sarcasm in this, and If I am getting your take wrong, please advise.

  • mellankelly1

    Just as your rapist imposed his God given free will upon you,

    Please do explain how someone (anyone) could "impose free will" upon another person?  In no way, shape or form did the man who raped me impose his "free will upon [me]" – he imposed his sex on me.  And that was wrong.

     you imposed your God given free will upon the forming human in your womb

    Oh jeeze Lisa… if this is the type of garbage that the people you reached out for help fed you, I feel terribly sorry for you.  It’s just awful and I really hope that you will consider seeking help from any other non-biased source available to you (I would beg sooner rather than later) because the type of "help" you’ve received has been a grave injustice to you… and you’re worth much more than that.

    God does not control us, but he has a plan for our souls, ALL souls, and sometimes evil and the use of free will disrupts his plans

    Oh Lisa, I do believe it’s very important to have strong faith in our lives, but to blame the misfortunes of mankind on "the use of free will" and "evil" isn’t doing you (or anyone else) any good.  God is only too happy when we exercise free will… and I will continue to do so every day of my life and forever after.  How you feel about my use of free will is not relevant to me or to God.

    The difference between you and I in how we view our abortions,

    I’ve got this one.  The difference is that I own my feelings while you project yours onto every other woman who has opted to terminate her pregnancy.  Projection is an unhealthy way to live your life and it doesn’t solve your issues, it masks them.

    You do not believe that God is one that you will have to answer to in any way

    I believe that God will welcome us both home when the time comes, that’s all.  I’m sorry that you disagree, but disagreeing is about as far my beliefs as you could go.

    I mean absolutely no attack or sarcasm in this

    I didn’t really take it that way… I think you generally mean well, but before you can possibly speak on any credible level with a woman who has had a far different experience with terminating her pregnancy, I suggest you work on yourself first.  I believe you truly regret your abortions and I believe you feel you’ve received help for those feelings however, peer reviewed studies have been conducted which reflect that if a woman suffers from any psychological issues (including depression) prior to becoming unintentionally pregnant, she will likely suffer those issues afterward (regardless of whether the pregnancy was gestated or terminated) and I think those women need to seek help for the underlying issues they may suffer (those issues which existed prior to becoming unintentionally pregnant.)  Projection is very unhealthy and oftentimes is a symptom of a much larger issue.  I honestly and from the bottom of my heart wish you well on your journey, Lisa.  God Bless!

  • invalid-0

    Now we don’t need Harry or Lisa or any of the other pretenders telling us what God thinks.

  • invalid-0

    If you don’t mind, could you please tell me what your definition of free will is?

  • invalid-0

    We were only talking about the ones that do not implant.

  • invalid-0

    Hence, colleens original post – the one about the wikipedia reference covers those that never implant. The study Mellankelly1 cited with the 25% is another category that covers those that implant but fail before the woman knows she’s pregnant.

  • invalid-0

    and both categories apply to colleens original statement about those that fail to mature.

  • colleen

    Thank you so much for clarifying for Lisa. I hope she now understands that calling a zygote, a blastocyst or a fetus a POTENTIAL human being is accurate and precise english usage while calling any of them a ‘baby’ is not.

  • invalid-0

    true.

  • invalid-0

    Harry isn’t a pretender. He’s with you.

  • mellankelly1

    If you don’t mind, could you please tell me what your definition of free will is?

     I believe free will to mean that we are free to make the best decisions for ourselves within the realm of our own lives.  Sorry if I wasn’t entirely clear.  I don’t know if I’d call it "my definition", but within the context of my post, it is what I meant. 

     

  • invalid-0

    Colleen’s original post did not mention the Wikipedia reference. The Wikipedia reference came later in the discussion. In my original response to her original post I was disputing her term “most”. She did not refer to any studies or references when she originally used the word “most”. Let’s beat this dead horse a little more so we can ignore, again, that the human heart of a forming human in the womb will begin beating at 22 days after conception.

  • harry834

    I’ve never used Twitter, but currently started using Ebay to sell comics. I know God might not be impressed by superheroes (seeing as how he’s all powerful, yet never shows up), but I’m thinking I’ll bear His good news if He takes a look at my sales items.

    Never follow a god who won’t buy your stuff…Sorry, but in this economy, I have no time to be saved by "faith alone". I want cha-ching….

  • harry834

    THAT’S the best the Almighty High Father can do?!?? I would have expected AT MINIMUM, that the website transport my physical body through all dimensions of time and space, while giving me a tour of His cloud castle.

    I’m sorry, but God’s lazier than I am (an that’s saying a lot)

  • invalid-0

    I am not seeing that key word ‘person’ in your post about the Constitution. The word ‘person’ is the basis for the argument concerning when exactly a forming human in the womb is considered a person. Just because “their pregnancies are unwanted” this may not give them the right to abort if the human forming in the womb is considered a ‘person’. I do not believe this issue of whether or not the unborn are persons has been oficially determined yet.

  • invalid-0

    Don’t forget to send out a memo letting woman know that if they get pregnant and decide to gestate that they may not refer to the thing being gestated as a ‘baby’ until it is completely born………

    “Oh, Kim! What a great friend you are for throwing this fetus shower for my fetus!” How about, “Oh Jim, I am just so thrilled to be carrying our zygote in my womb!”
    And don’t forget, “When is your fetus due, Ma’am?”

  • invalid-0

    How come it is ok for people to go to war and kill innocent humans in the name of freedom, but it is not ok for women to abort a blob of cells in the name of freedom?
    It is a double standard don’t you think?

    Maybe if we women were treated with respect and equal status in this world from the begginning we would not be fighting for the small amount of freedom we do not have. Our bodies.
    Maybe if we were paid to be inconvienced say 600,000 year we could close the abortion issue once and for all.
    I know what you are thinking OH MY G@@ how can you put a price tag on it. Men do it all the time. Oh tax men more to so we can be protected on the street at night,from abusive husbands etc. etc. Get it?

  • invalid-0

    Look up the definition of person, and get back with us, Lisa.

  • mellankelly1

    I am not seeing that key word ‘person’ in your post about the Constitution

    The key word is "Citizen" as I was responding to your erroneous post that the Constitution protects "LIFE."  I was merely pointing out the fact that the Constitution protects the citizens of the United States.  I can’t help it that one must be born or naturalized in the US in order to become a US citizen.  So, unless you are questioning the personhood of the citizens of the US, I have no idea why you’d even bring it up in response to a post it has nothing to do with.

  • invalid-0

    I’ll do that. Would you look up the definition of free will for Mellankelly1?

  • mellankelly1

    Don’t forget to send out a memo letting woman know that if they get pregnant and decide to gestate that they may not refer to the thing being gestated as a ‘baby’ until it is completely born………

    Right, because we all know that the ultimate goal of those who support choice is to make sure no woman refers to her pregnancy as a "baby." @@  Does this also mean that I have to stop referring to my dog as my "baby" because that is just totally not cool, man.

  • otaku1960

    I’ve been sellilng on ebay for some ten years now and didn’t have much selling comic books unless they were at least 30 years old. Right now I’m selling some really old magazine ads and postcards, also some action figures on the behalf of family members who don’t have time to be online much.

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • invalid-0

    Go ahead and ask President Obama how he feels about your $600,000 pay request.

  • invalid-0

    of the gross domestic product. We need our back pay too.

    I am being dead serious I am sick of being treated like a second class citizen because of my gender.

  • invalid-0

    “Would you look up the definition of free will for Mellankelly1?”

    Don’t need to. Free will is the freedom to accept or reject.
    Basically.

  • invalid-0

    Wikipedia y’know isn’t its own primary source of its own biological studies so it uses references to other sources for its figures. You click on the reference number in what you are reading and the reference for the claim appears listed at the bottom of the page.
    The info colleen was referring to was referenced.

  • invalid-0

    Its the 60% that is referenced, my mistake stating it as 70%.

  • colleen

    Lisa,

     

    Please recall that this discussion started with you correcting  KS when she correctly stated:

    "An abortion destroys the potential for personhood, but it doesn’t kill an actual, living, breathing person."

     

    You said:

     

    "To say it is a potential person, or potential human, is to say that it
    could at some point be anything other that a human or person."

     
    Which means that you, not I,  were inaccurately correcting someone’s accurate characterization. Originally I was just pointing out that you cannot make up whole new meanings for words when it suits what you fondly believe are your logical arguments. That isn’t what saying it is a potential person means at all. You were just making shit up.

    Obviously I have no diffculty with normal usage as in "I’m going to have a baby."  Indeed, you and yours are welcome to call fetuses and zygotes ‘babies’ (as in "You murdered your baby!!!") and wax on about beating hearts all you like.  I don’t care if the lot of you sound like obsessed idiots. I find it rather entertaining, truth be told. What isn’t entertaining are the legal and social results of valuing  fertilized eggs over the life and being and basic rights of  women and girls and than deciding you have every right to control women,degrade our lives and force your religion down our throats. Which is precisely what the ‘pro-life’ movement  does.

    PS you don’t do sarcasm well. It makes you look petulant and petty.

  • aspen-baker

    So…Senators tweeted during the Presidentil Address and now the discussion on what Obama should have said in the Address is being informed by the voice of God on twitter…We have come full circle. 

  • invalid-0

    Who submits the sources with references to Wikipedia?

  • mellankelly1

    You people could learn a lot from Lisa’s courageousness.

    If you mean her courage in sharing her personal life experience, I applaud it… and every other woman on this website (including the video messages from Exhales youtube page.)  Any woman who is willing to put her life into this discussion, is being courageous and deserves respect.  We all need to be heard and respected equally, no matter what our story.  Hey Truth, thanks for reminding us how important the life experiences of all of these women are and how blessed we are for having heard them.

  • mellankelly1

    Hey, any God who tweets about using donuts for communion is worth following (and I’m not even sure what communion really is, but I know donuts… and they’re delicious!)

  • invalid-0

    I have officially looked up ‘person’. I have also looked up ‘abortion’, ‘baby’, and ‘pregnancy’. I used Webster’s New World Dictionary Third College Edition. I highly suggest that you all do the same. In addition, please do also look up ‘free will’. I want to thank you for referring me to the dictionary of all places-I really have always loved it, but just get lazy about using it, ya’ know? However I have found that reading the definitions of these words makes me feel even more confidence in my stance.
    I absolutely will not refer to human life in the womb as a ‘baby’ ever again-y’all are correct about that one. I will just keep saying ‘human life in the womb’ because by definition it is the correct terminology.

  • otaku1960

    Put the flame thrower down and back away – slowly.  It’s obvious you are a real hothead, I used to be like that until my opinions evolved. Calling Aspen a name like that (or referring to those other women as "walking corpses") is disrespectlul and really quite tacky. 

    If by courageous, you mean Lisa’s sharing her story, then I completely agree.Women who’ve gotten abortions have been maligned so thoroughly, it takes guts to step up and speak out.  But if you mean her immature rants are "courageous", then someone has complete mental disconnect.

     

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • otaku1960

     I’ll only follow a god who uses chocolate doughnuts for communion.

    And speaking of food oriented deities, have you ever checked out the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?   Only pirates can be His prophets. Wouldn’t it be cool to be preached at by a guy who wears an eye patch and has a parrot on his shoulder?

    May He touch you with His noodly appendage.

    *snark*

     

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • otaku1960

    a real man talks it over with the would-be mother of his child and then abides by the decision they come to. He supports her emotionally, even if he isn’t completely happy with said decision.  Your response implies a "real" man should physically stop the would-be mother from having an abortion, even to the point of violence.

    Plus, the bald statement I’ve never known a REAL MAN is patently ludicrous. You don’t know me and you can’t know. SO it’s not a good idea to make such a blatant statement unless you can back them up.

    Somehow, I don’t think you can.

     

    Your grievance shall be avenged.

  • mellankelly1

    um… congratulations?

  • mellankelly1

    And speaking of food oriented deities, have you ever checked out the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    Oh yes… I’m a HUGE fan!!!  And, being that I am also a pirate as evidenced by my eye patch, wooden leg and my repetitive usage of the phrase "ARGH, ye scurvy mates!", I may be a prophet (here’s keeping my noodly appendages crossed!)

  • invalid-0

    Who said anything about a ‘real man’ stopping the woman with violence? Who said anything about him physically stopping her? Whose droppin’ the horse pucky now?

    “I have noticed that everyone in favor of abortion has been born” -Ronald Reagan