“What If Your Mother Had Aborted You?”


"What if your mother had aborted you?" It’s almost always a question some frustrated anti-choicer asks after a presentation; I’ve probably been asked that question a hundred times. In the beginning, my answer was fairly abstract, philosophical. I’d note that the "I" who stands before them is not the "I" that was once a fetus. The I of today is the result of a mother who continued a pregnancy and the process of becoming that made me who I am today. But over time, I felt a need to give a more personal and direct answer, something about me, my mother and the relationship between children and their mothers.

I feel a need to turn that question around and to ask instead: What if your mother’s life would have been significantly happier and healthier if she had not had you? If you as a fetus had the capacity to make decisions, would you have given your life for your mother’s life, health and happiness?

My mother, Florence, the last of seven children in a harsh Polish immigrant family, left home at 17 and came to New York City. She got pregnant, chased the soldier who impregnated her and ended up with me. As you might imagine, she was an interesting and difficult person. Frankly, she never should have had children. She had her good qualities, but mothering wasn’t one of them. And she had a miserable life. Four kids, two husbands, both of whom abandoned her and us. When the second one left, she had to go to work to support us: a low paying job as a telephone operator working the 11pm to 7am shift and a two hour each way commute was her lot in life.

That life began to change when the youngest of us graduated high school and I offered her a job as the head of the telephone appointment staff at the abortion clinic I was directing. The pay was better, the company included young, empowered women and she flourished. By 1980, she had moved to DC and was the practice manager for a busy orthopedic practice. Her pleasure and first time security was cut short by lung cancer and at the age of 58 she died.

As a fetus I would have gladly given up my chance to enter the world and become Frances Kissling to have given my mother a better chance at happiness. Far too much is made of a mother’s obligations to her children and far too little of what a child’s love for her mother means. If fetuses could love, I think they would be as passionate in defense of their mothers as born children become.

If we are going to imagine, as some do, fetuses as part of the human community, we are going to have to accept that if they could make decisions, they might be as willing to sacrifice for others as we demand that women and only women be.

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To schedule an interview with Frances Kissling please contact Communications Director Rachel Perrone at rachel@rhrealitycheck.org.

  • invalid-0

    Last year me and a close friend of mine got together and after a month or so she said to me that she thought she might of been pregnant, I at first dismissed this but soon found out that her insticts were right. We went to the doctor who confirmed that she was pregnent. This for me was the biggest shock and eye opener Id ever had and her too. After talking we both decided that it was for the best to terminate, this choice obviosly was made harder because the choice had to be split and not I believe that she thinks it was a bad idea and that I backed her into a corner with her choice, I feel I didnt but maybe I did. I am constantly haunted from what happened and subsiquently the relationship fell apart, I always think of the what if and the perhaps’s but the descion was made and followed up. I guess neither of us will never know.
    I feel that the description from Francis Kissling is a justifed one because if I knew that my mother was going to have less of a life and a harder one I would feel guilty, maybe I say this because it benefits my personal battle. before the aborstion I did think that it was wrong to do such a thing. I would say ‘you should used protection!!’. But when the shoe is on the other foot you notice how different it feels, I believe.. perhaps selfishly that I now can live the rest of my life to a more controled style and I will be over the moon when the day comes when I am in a steady relationship and decide to have a child, I suppose the ‘what if’s’ have left me feeling that when the day comes I will be ready. But going back to my point I think that there is alot of ignorance on this subject, mainly because its a TABU topic and nobody really want to hear or know about it, I guess thats just human nature though. I question the what if but know that we made the right choice, maybe just for me so I guess that makes me a monster. So to round up I think its like this. Every action has a concoring reaction and with each individual the story is different, we have different choices and options that have to be seriously thought through.. every case is differnt. As TABU as it is its a optionable choice.
    I hope that people read this and think about what I have said, feel free to ask me if you wish.
    Im anonymous not through fear but respect for the people involed.

  • invalid-0

    to share your story. Thank you for doing so. You are right:

    …and with each individual the story is different, we have different choices and options that have to be seriously thought through.. every case is differnt.

     

    This is the point. I am in no position to judge you or your situation. You, as you wrote, made the best decision you could at the time and that should be enough for anyone. Good luck with your own journey; your courage in relating your story is inspirational!

    Amie Newman

    Managing Editor, RH Reality Check

  • invalid-0

    I have actually been asked this before when in a conversation with a prolifer and once when I went to get my own abortion being harassed by the protesters. I answered them the same I answer here my parents were not meant to be parents and I think if I had never come into this world oh well, I know my parents would of had better lives. They got married due to a pregnancy at a young age. My mother never had the means to advance her education and is now staying with my father for the security. They are unhappy and miserable people and I know that if they chose to exercise the right to choose, they would of been better off for it. As far as my own abortion, I know I did the right thing I felt it as a whole in my mind and heart that is why I support the right for all women. What a great post and an interesting topic to bring up. And anonymous you have shown great courage in sharing your story. I think the more we talk about abortion the better off we will all be.

  • invalid-0

    This article is utterly astounding. To be so self centered that you would think a fetus should give up its entire life, untold years of contribution to humanity, just so that its mother would have an easier life. . . I just find that unbelievable.

    One of the highest points of humanity may be giving up your life so that others might live, but IT IS NOT TAKING SOMEONE’S LIFE SO THAT YOUR’S WILL BE NICER.

    This article makes me sick.

  • invalid-0

    Props to that E.O.G.!

  • scott-swenson

    E.O.G.,

    All the article does is turn the question and ask that we all consider a unique alternative. No need to get sick, and the anti-choice/anti-contraception crowd is constantly asking us to “feel the fetal pain” … why shouldn’t we at least contemplate the fact that some would choose differently?


    Be the change you seek,

    Scott Swenson, Editor

  • invalid-0

    Her point is that if a fetus had the capacity to think and to love, that it would probably be willing to sacrifice itself to help its mother. That’s about the least self-centered thing I’ve ever heard.

    I love my mother so much, and I know that if I were in a situation where I could sacrifice my life to help her, it would be a no-brainer.

    Thanks Frances, for this article. I too have had to answer this question countless times, and I’m looking forward to trying out this new approach next time!

  • http://www.scarleteen.com invalid-0

    You totally beat me to this, Frances!

    I get this one all the time, and have been writing on and off about it for a little while privately to try to express a very similar feeling and a very similar situation. Suffice it to say, knowing what I know about my mother, her life, and what she really wanted but was not practically or lawfully able to do, I feel the same way that you do.

    I feel all the more so when I consider that I most certainly do not see the priority and quality of a woman’s life first being so short as to begin with conception and then end at the moment she becomes pregnant (and also see the profound imbalance in that men’s lives are never viewed or treated in such a way).

    I’ll probably still write about it, but you’re a tough act to follow. :)

  • invalid-0

    My standard reply to these kind of questions from anti-choicers is that I beleive in reincarnation, so if my Mom had chose to abort me (before I was ME) then perhaps my soul would have chosen a different Mom/Dad or maybe I would have waited until she was ready for me(she was 18)and come back. These are my religious beliefs and they are just as valid as yours(to the anti-choicers) and last time I checked we are supposed to have freedom of religion in this country. Also, read Christine northrups book Women’s Health, Women’s Wisdom–in it she tells an interesting story of a little girl who told her mom that she was once in mommy’s tummy but mommy and daddy were not ready for her so she had to come back later! No one knew she had had an abortion except for mom and dad and they did not talk about it. Until a fetus can survive outside the womb it is no one but the womans business what she does with the pregnancy.

  • invalid-0

    Yes, I agree in reincarnation and that we choose our parents at birth. The anti choicers are saying that if you are pregnant, your only choice is to give birth, or you are a selfish person, and I take offense at that. There are many, many selfish parents (thank goodness, I did not have one of them!) who did not want the fetus they are carrying, and when it is born and is raising it abuses and neglects it. Our prisons and foster homes are full of such people, serial killers often were horrifically abused and neglected, alcoholics and drug addicts often had alcoholic parents who neglected them so they could go out drinking, leaving them in the hands of anyone…. etc. So sometimes the kindest thing is to have an abortion, because the world suffers in these other cases. My mom was unmarried and pregnant with me, and she chose to get married but she loved my dad, and she came from a loving, stable home, she was 18, and they are still together and had other children together, but she said to me, what if I had decided to have an abortion instead? I said, “mom, it was your life, and your choice, I guess if you did we might not be having this conversation and we both wouldn’t have known the difference.” She used to be anti choice for that very reason, but after reminding her many times of all of the women who died at the hands of a coathanger because they didn’t have that choice, she has since come to see things more my way. If she had chosen differently, she might have been one of those women as abortion was illegal then and out of wedlock women were castigeted and abused by the very people who are anti-choice today. Most anti-choice people care little or not at all for the fetus, and nothing at all for women, they are selfish people who want to limit women’s choices and force them into their one size fits all world. Who suffers? The rich can travel anywhere and get safe and legal abortions,(most developed countries provide them) but the poor will bear their children and neglect and abuse them or die at the hands of a coathanger if choice to abort was not an option. We must fight these anti choice zealots. It is one thing to personally not believe in abortion, it is quite a different thing to politically fight for laws to limit others access to it. We must educate our children to speak out and fight against these anti choice people, as we are the majority. 72% believe in abortion rights in some capacity, so why don’t our laws continue to reflect that? Why are these people allowed to chip away at our choices? Vote Democratic! Give money to pro choice venues like Planned Parenthood. Don’t let those with the fewest but loudest voices win- think of the young girls coming up in this world that you love, they deserve the right to safe and legal options if their birth control fails them.

  • invalid-0

    I can see how some babies might choose differently, but THEY ARE KIDS. What this turning-around of the question does is ask us to imagine what would happen if we took a question of life and death and asked the most immature person we can find to make the decision. There is a reason that two-year-olds can’t vote, and it’s the same reason that this is a ridiculous thought-experiment. If you’re going to abort your proto-baby, then make the decision from a calm place where you can be at peace with it. But if the thought of killing your proto-baby is really so repulsive to you that you find yourself going through this kind of tortured rationalization, then just don’t kill it.

  • invalid-0

    I’m in agreement. Many rabid pro-lifers don’t stop to realize that their screwed up “sanctity of life” views are not shared by all – especially women forced to give birth to children they don’t want. Most pro-life organizations, especially Catholic ones are all hot air and religious talk but when it comes down to it they don’t offer to take the child of a pregnant woman and relieve her of that responsibility if she is not up to raising the kid.

    The pro-lifers all live in a dreamworld especially those of the Catholic church. They live in a world where Jesus and the Virgin will make everything alright if the woman honors the “sanctity of life” and goes ahead and has the child. Of course they are nowhere to be found when the sh-t hits the fan so to speak.

  • invalid-0

    So what is the awnser?

  • invalid-0

    Yes, let’s relieve the mother of her responsibility! Let’s kill the child! The mother will be alright, but the child wont. The child wasn’t really human anyway, because he doesn’t know how to love yet. Even though the child even has a different blood type from the mother, it still isn’t human.
    If you want proof that the child in the womb is human, I can give it to you.
    I am Catholic. Have you studied the Catholic religion and its teaching on the sanctity of life? Because you have a warped conception of it. I’m 15 years old, and I understand it, and I think if you studied it you would too.

  • invalid-0

    You are 15, you haven’t even begun to live yet! If anyone has a warped conception, it is you, because you have been brainwashed by the Catholic Church. At 15, you haven’t had the time to study religion in any practical way to apply it to life. You are too young to have a child and raise it on your own, should you get pregnant. We are fighting this war for you,and others like you. If you did get pregnant, you would see how fast your options in life would be limited. You would see what hell really is! Yes, I have studied religion including Catholicism, and have come to my own conclusions,and they are different than those of the Catholic Church, which I was born into and gave up because of the way that they treat women and try to limit their life choices regarding birth control and abortion. Come back to this converstaion when you can talk more intelligently about it. You need some life experience first, watching Juno and going to church and church school just doesn’t cut it.

  • invalid-0

    the answer is no one will ever know this. No one has the right to preach to anyone in any situation. We are supposedly born with ‘free will’ in all religions so why is this actually an issue in the first place?
    My mother was planning to abort me because i was told i was going to have a very rare, incurable disease, i was lucky enough to have been born without little complications but my mother nearly died giving birth to me. My mother is worth more than any comment or judgement and I would give my life up in a second for her. I’m shocked that some people obviously dont agree with this?
    I too believe in rebirth, i was once a christian, brought up that way for 15 years but i now follow buddhist practice. There are many reasons for this, but doesnt anybody else find it a bit strange that through the christian church its male dominated? a woman could never become pope for example. sadly some people are using religion as an excuse to gain power.

    We all have our own rights and as muh as I believe abortion should be the absolute last resort it should be YOUR choice.

    This really shouldnt be such a big issue.

  • invalid-0

    I am only 22 now and I too know that I have not really had a great deal of life experiences but I do think that for my age I have a pretty screwed of head and am able to seriously make descions. I can and cant really believe that so much anger has been brewed up here, not by all but some people really do get all hot under the collar when this subject arrises and even though its none of thier business, but Im a big believer in freedom of speach.. Ive said it before and will say it again, if any other person here or in the world were found unfortunatly into a situation where by they they genuinely cant or arent able to bring up that child (and I hope that doesnt happen) then surely that is their choice to make, the bigger issue here is not condem but to solve.If I chose to I could sit here all day writing about how the people who choose to abort were immature and irresponsible but this is as good as sitting on the fence and throwing stone at the people who are trying to reach you on a very different delicate subject. Put down the stones and climb down and at least try to see it from both sides. Its very easy to bundle this topic into two catergories, those being if you get rid your bad and if you dont your good but there world doesnt work like that. If you really couldnt and it was the last unfortunate option then you should be allowed to choose. The shoe does feel different of the other foot I assure you! I do understand the implications to the choice, maybe the child could of gone on to do great things.. maybe a genius was in the making and this genius was ready to change the world or maybe the child was heading for a life on the streets.. I dont mean to use the negative sentence at the end there for extra drama but the truth is is that its not a nice thing and will never be, there will always be anger facing this subject because of the nature of it. Its a very deliacte topic and one that if anything is to be said on it then the greatest amount of thought has to go into it and that means general disscussion like on here and the actual act of aborstion. Just because one person had to make a choice and they chose not to keep the child doesnt mean they are going to hell. Surely if God is forgiving and understanding he can then look deeper inside you than anyone and seek out the truth of the matter and judge you himself. Im not afraid of that day.

  • invalid-0

    Of course there is going to be anger against those who are trying to end a woman’s God given right to terminate a pregnancy that she does not want to continue, or to try to take away birth control which gives women sexual freedom that men have by birth. We have the science and ability to do these things for a reason. For others to try to take away these rights and continue to try to make us work to keep these rights when there are so many other important things to do in the world, yes, that does make me angry. I do wish that these anti choice people would take on issues that would make the world a better place, like the starving children in the world that die before their first birthday, or I wish that they would adopt a foster child who is growing older without love in some foster home, but these people don’t know how to give love to the world. These people who fight against choice and birth control do not care about the world or people, they just care about keeping women in the prison of their sexuality, much like the way that it was before Roe was decided. Yes, it makes me mad, and it should make you mad too. Many young women take these rights for granted, but a good first step is to join in the discussion as you have, and I thank you for it. For a 15 year old girl to preach to Sparkle and I about religion and trying to use it against the issue without bringing anything to the table but to preach at us, well we are grown women, we have seen life and religion and know the deal. The Catholic Church has subjugated women for centuries, keeping women from power in the church on every level, keeping women from power over their own lives as well by trying to limit our choices. We are just supposed to have child after child that we can’t afford in a marriage, and of course go to church with the kids and tithe to the church, which is after all, a big business. People might have fallen for that before birth control was allowed to be out of the control of their husbands in the early 70′s (such a short time ago!) But we still have to fight them now. I just wish that they would fight the child molesting priests in their churches as hard and stop trying to preach to the rest of us.

    • invalid-0

      What? Where did I use my religious beliefs in my argument against abortion??
      And how exactly did I ‘preach to you’?
      I’m dying to know. Seems to me that you’re just trying to use the basis of my age and my religion against me.

  • invalid-0

    I would like to pose a comment to E.O.G, the question comment to you is bascially what I meant by the last comment where by I said to more or less think before you speak. I know that sounds harsh toward you but you obviously opened your opinion hole without taking on board all the information that you could of. Sorry but ignornance breeds ignorance. This disscussion is talking about the reality of what is aborstion, there is no self centeredness involved.. if anything is completely a hyperthetical question.. and how do you know that by aborting that untold years of contribution to humanity would be lost. Your comment is childish and I hate to be the one to say this but you need to think before you speak. I agree that a life can bring an incredible amount to this world but th question posed is that if you had to make the choice yourself and if it had come to that and everything was against you to have the child then wouldnt you want the option. But again the issue should be how to prevent and not curse or condem. Understand and not exile. If we are on a road heading toward a better life for generations to come then we should prepare it for all enevitablities. Ignorance breeds ingornace.

  • invalid-0

    First of all I am sorry that you had a difficult life and that your mother was a poor parent who led you through maltreatment and abandonment. I am sure that’s very difficult. If that is your primarily or only frame of reference for parenting I can understand why your own views on motherhood are what they are and why you are the person you are.

    First of all I don’t think that children should be expected to have a sacrificial role with their parents. They are children and need the full warm embrace that mother’s typically offer their children. It’s not necessary that small children of any age have imposed on them any expectation of sacrifice. And your belief that too much is made of the concept of a parent sacrificing for their child is just chilling – that’s inherent to parenting.

  • http://forkbomber.blogspot.com invalid-0

    Frankly, most “pro live” people don’t think about anyone else but their selves and their brainwashed vision on life.

    let’s put it like this: if my mother would not like to have a kid, would i prefer to be born? or aborted..
    plain easy: i don’t want to be the “unwanted kid” all my life, i don’t want parent that don’t need me. i don’t want a mother that says “you where an accident”

    no, i’de rather had her aborting me then…

    to all these good christians: do you kill ants? flies? mice? maybe microbes? let me tell you: you do, and that’s life, life you killed because it annoyed you… there is no difference between that and a fetus, even more: an ant, fly or mouse can think, they live more then a fetus does.

  • mellankelly1

    Spirits do come back!  My youngest was bound and determined to be born to me and she beat the odds coming post-vasectomy.  I knew it when I was pregnant and I knew it the day a stranger came up to me at some candle party and told me that my youngest daughter had waited over eight years to be with me (she was born in 2001 and I’d terminated in 1993). I’ll tell you, it was a bizarre thing to hear from a stranger, but I’d felt it all along.

     

  • mellankelly1

    Yes, let’s relieve the mother of her responsibility

    The choice to terminate a pregnancy is every bit as responsible as the choice to gestate a pregnancy… the fact that you detest one choice does not alter how responsible that choice is.  You’re going to need to learn to deal with that.

  • invalid-0

    Excuse me, but please don’t say that I have been brainwashed by my own religion. Because I have never been pregnant, I’m therefore inexperienced and haven’t begun to live yet, and haven’t applied my religion to my daily life? That’s ridiculous. I’ve been blessed with wonderful parents who have taught me how to live my religion, and also who taught me the sanctity of human life. They themselves have had nine children, including me.
    If I did get pregnant, I would pray that I would never think of terminating the life of my baby, who is very much alive.
    The question of age and the question of religion doesn’t effect in any way the fact that the baby in the womb is a person, and should be given life by the mother, who’s a separate human.
    Can you please do me a favor and read this? It gives proof that the baby is a person: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0004.html

  • invalid-0

    I actually don’t want to sit around and deal with it. I want to do my part in trying to stop it, because it’s wrong.

  • invalid-0

    I can’t be bothered reading it, sorry. My previous post stands, and I hope that you don’t wind up being a baby machine like your mom, she might have the right to that choice of having so many kids but I sure hope that we as taxpayers aren’t paying for it in some capacity. A fetus is NOT a seperate person, or even a person until BIRTH.

  • invalid-0

    Why don’t you get a life, kid, or help your mom with all of the brothers and sisters she insists on adding to this battle weary planet. Stop wasting your time trying to preach to the rest of us, because we aren’t listening and you can’t even vote yet. Let me know if you feel the same way when you are 18 and have spent years taking care of your new brothers and sisters. Better yet, go get some real life experience, go on a date, go to the movies, etc. You really don’t belong here trying to tell us anything, we have been there and done that, and you haven’t even been there.

  • invalid-0

    If my mother had aborted me and I were able to say something to her, I’d thank her. If a mom CHOOSES to abort her OWN fetus, its probably because she feels she can’t take care of it properly and is just saving it a life of hell. I’d rather choose death over a life where my mom didn’t want me or a life where my family can’t afford to take care of me properly. If I were pregnant and found out that my baby was going to be completely mentally disabled or with an incurable disease, I might abort it to save it from its own life of torture.

    Abortion is only in your control when youre in the that situation. So if you would rather have the kid or give it up for adoption, that’s your choice and I respect that, just as I respect any woman’s choice for what she wants to do with her own fetus.

  • invalid-0

    “Frankly, most “pro live” people don’t think about anyone else but their selves and their brainwashed vision on life.”

    -A woman killing an unborn child for her own convenience is undeniably selfish.

    “there is no difference between that and a fetus, even more: an ant, fly or mouse can think, they live more then a fetus does.”

    -Are you actually saying the life of an ant’s is more important than the life of a fetus, a human being? Each and every human being has a potential to give a positive impact on culture, society and the world. An ant’s only impact is moving dirt. Ants may be alive, but there is absolutely nothing in this world that is as important as human life, which clearly begins at conception

    Abortion is selfish, disgusting and wrong. No one can choose to end a human life for mere convenience. Life is hard, it always has been and it always will be. Killing a fetus, a baby, is by no means justifiable, especially when it is done to make someone else’s life easier.

  • invalid-0

    I agree. She should have been aborted and done us all a favor.

    But seriously, if you want to call our side of debated the “anti-choice” people instead of the “pro-life,” giving us a negative spin, then I lable you pro-death.

    Thanks for giving a crap answer, by the way. It’s completely idealistic to think that all babies (not fetuses as you would cal them), would give up there lives for their mothers if it meant a better life. By that same hand you should say that every mother should give up their right to happiness for their child’s right to happiness. Who bears the burden then? The one who can actually make the choice, the mother.

    Since when has happiness been the highest achievement and ideal. You’re completely brainwashed by Western media.

  • invalid-0

    “I felt a need to give a more personal and direct answer, something about me, my mother and the relationship between children and their mothers.

    I feel a need to turn that question around and to ask instead: What if your mother’s life would have been significantly happier and healthier if she had not had you?”

    That is not a direct answer.

    It’s irrelevant what you imagine the fetus that became you would want if it could love. It can’t.

    P.S. I’m pro choice I just think this is a weak answer

  • invalid-0

    I don’t believe this issue is really about fetuses or their rights to life. It is about women and the control they have over their bodies. When the government makes decisions stopping them from having clean, safe abortions women are forced to have illegal, life threatening abortions. This only happens when serious things are at stake in a woman’s life. It is not selfish of the mother for having an abortion like this. What is selfish, though, is for somebody else to step in based on their beliefs and try to inhibit a woman from taking control of her life.

    If you really do believe that this issue is about babies and their rights to life, then just remember that this isn’t going to be a life of your middle class bliss called suburbia. The women who don’t receive enough education to avoid pregnancy are most likely going to be lower class citizens who live hard and dangerous lives. Un-aborted fetuses are likely to be children who live in the worst possible circumstances and are forced to live lives like their mother: pain and hardship with no reward.

    Mothers who live lives of luxury and comfort will want abortions too. Their un-aborted fetuses will live lives like theirs. These children will have a much better chance at becoming the next Einstein or at least reaching some kind of fulfillment in their lives.

    The only way to deal with this issue properly is to support sex education to prevent women from being put in these difficult situations. It is not easy to have an abortion, and it is not easy to get a safe one. Women need the education to make their own decisions. What they do not need is somebody to step in and tell them what to do. I am a man, but I would also classify myself as a feminist. Though I believe that killing is wrong and stupid, I feel that forcing my beliefs upon others is worse. People should not be allowed to make laws telling women what to do. They should instead, educate women to make their own decisions. Fetuses have rights too. They have the right to not live a life that is not theirs. They have the right to not live a life of pain and suffering. It is hard for them to make these decisions as they are still in the womb but the adults that they grow up to be will not necessarily get this decision. They will not get the chance to own a computer or discuss political topics on the internet. The fact that you are here and able to read this proves your wealth and abundance of free time. The real battle is not here on an internet page; it is in hospital rooms where women who have no choice cringe in pain as a giant machine sucks out the bloody things growing in their belly that they had no control over. Women in this world should be able to have babies when they want and where they want. You cannot force them to do so. This is a war over rights: women and the rights that they have over their bodies. Nobody else should have the right to decide. Nobody else should be able to say when babies are born or where they are born. Women need this power. They have a right to it. Women have the right to a choice.

  • invalid-0

    So you insult me and my mother by calling her a baby machine, and then don’t even bother to read why I think my opinion is the right one? wow.
    And thankfully, my mom cares more about lives than about money.

  • invalid-0

    I have a nice life right now, thank you.
    If what I’m saying is preaching, that’s what you’re doing too.
    So in a nutshell, besides all the insults, you’re saying that I’m inexperienced and immature, and you guys are, so therefore you have a right to terminate pregnancies.
    If I wasn’t sure whether I was pro-abortion or pro-life, and I went on to this website, I’d be pro-life right away, judging on how mean and rude everyone here is, even though they’re all probable older than eighteen.
    Yes, I will feel the same way when I’m eighteen. I already know from my mother how hard it is to raise children.
    For the record, I don’t plan on getting married.

  • invalid-0

    Can’t be bothered… you’re as stubborn and narrow minded as the brainwashed catholics, if someones suggested you read something to understand what they think then it is not only polite to do so but also suggests a willingness to discuss and persuade rather than just banging out your own thoughts. Or at least read it to back up your claim that catholics are brainwashed, i quote “abortion is a clear cut evil”

  • invalid-0

    Sorry to break it to you, but life is not sacred, no body has a right to life – these are all just concepts created by the society we live in.
    If some one wants a abortion, then yeah fair play to them – why should the mother suffer for a child she doesn’t want anyway…

  • mellankelly1

    I actually don’t want to sit around and deal with it. I want to do my part in trying to stop it, because it’s wrong.

    I think that you misunderstood my point R.B. – I was referring to this quote by you:

    Yes, let’s relieve the mother of her responsibility

    Your opinion that a woman who terminates her pregnancy is not being responsible is incorrect.  Terminating a pregnancy is every bit as responsible as gestating a pregnancy regardless of whether or not you support that choice.  I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you had to agree with abortion, merely that you had to deal with the fact that abortion is a responsible choice.  By the way, criminalizing abortion will not stop it… if you really are concerned with lowering the number of abortions performed, I would suggest you push for better, safer and more reliable forms of birth control for those who are sexually active but do not wish to become pregnant.

  • mellankelly1

    A woman killing an unborn child for her own convenience is undeniably selfish.

    I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word "undeniably" because your above statement is anything but plainly true.  There are many reasons women terminate their pregnancies… if you’d bother to do the research you will find that most women site several reasons for making this choice.  You may see these women as acting selfishly… the may see you as acting selfishly.  Luckily, it doesn’t matter what you feel about another womans pregnancy.

    Abortion is selfish, disgusting and wrong. No one can choose to end a human life for mere convenience. Life is hard, it always has been and it always will be

    This is a temper tantrum and certainly not a valid agrument against abortion.

    Killing a fetus, a baby, is by no means justifiable

    You may opine that a baby and a fetus are one and the same but they simply aren’t.  Most people who support forced motherhood refer to the fetus with cute little qualifiers like "unborn" baby… use whatever adjectives you’d like… a fetus is a fetus is a fetus.  Enough with the dramatics, no pro-choice person supports killing born children.

  • scott-swenson

    I have to agree. While we love to claim that the far-right comes here and is often less than civil, there is no need for those of us who are pro-choice to stoop to their level. There is no need to assume anything about this young woman’s family, faith or beliefs. They are more likely to evolve over time based on her own life experience if people do not alienate her now. We encourage all comments to be civil.


    Be the change you seek,

    Scott Swenson, Editor

  • mellankelly1

    Since when has happiness been the highest achievement and ideal. You’re completely brainwashed by Western media.

    Since when has happiness been dictated by "western media"?  People can be happy in all different situations.  I may be happy doing things that wouldn’t necessarily make you happy.  Happiness is a state of well-being and contentment – I feel sorry for you that you don’t believe this to be an important achievment for people (and I’m thankful to be surrounded by family and loved ones who believe happiness is a basic necessity).  Is it that you believe people should suffer rather than be happy?  Do you think happy people are selfish? 

    • invalid-0

      Since when has happiness been the highest achievement and ideal. You’re completely brainwashed by Western media.

      You ask when Happiness has been the highest achievement and ideal….since the Declaration of Independence:

      ” We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

      Yes, I know this is also a favorite passage of the anti-choicers to somehow prove their point of an embryo’s right to life, but the Constitution also clears this up by noting that a person is considered an American by being born here. Key word is born, not conceived.

  • invalid-0

    Thank you.

  • invalid-0

    Highly effective contraceptives (most notably the Pill) are already available and they’ve done nothing to cause a decrease in the number of abortions.
    In the United Kingdom abortions are at such a record high that even some pro-choice advocates are disturbed – and the development of ‘better’ contraception hasn’t done anything to stop or even slow down the increase in the number of abortions performed. The figures have risen steadily since abortion was legalized in the UK in 1967.

    Being responsible involves a lot more than thinking hard about what the ‘best’ course of action is for ‘your life’ and making your choice based on that. This isn’t about the life of one person. It’s about the lives of a mother, a father, a family, a community, and – above all – a child. Another human being. It is not responsible to assume that your fears and plans for the future somehow override another human being’s right to life, and to act on that assumption – even if it is an assumption that you’ve come to after a lot of thought. It’s not responsible to assume that your pregnancy is a private matter that affects your body alone.

  • mellankelly1

    Highly effective contraceptives (most notably the Pill) are already available and they’ve done nothing to cause a decrease in the number of abortions.

    The pill is not a suitable choice for all women.  I happen to be one of those women who wasn’t able to take hormonal contraception of any kind.

    Being responsible involves a lot more than thinking hard about what the ‘best’ course of action is for ‘your life’ and making your choice based on that.

    Your implication that a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy thinks only of herself is shortsighted.  Have you researched the many reasons why women have abortions?  Have you spoken with women who have opted to terminate their pregnancy to find out how they came to this decision?  I am inclined to believe that you haven’t.  As a woman who terminated a pregnancy I can assure you that this was the most responsible decision for all parties involved.  Perhaps this wasn’t a responsible decision in your eyes and you are certainly entitled to your opinion; however, the personal reproduction decisions that I’ve made in my life have absolutely nothing to do with you.

    This isn’t about the life of one person. It’s about the lives of a mother, a father, a family, a community, and – above all – a child.

    I disagree.  The choice of whether or not to continue an unwanted pregnancy is between a woman, her loved ones and her doctor… it is in no way a concern for some third party with no stake whatsoever in the outcome.

    It is not responsible to assume that your fears and plans for the future somehow override another human being’s right to life, and to act on that assumption – even if it is an assumption that you’ve come to after a lot of thought

    Again… your opinions about why a person would choose to end a pregnancy are irrelevant.  One does not "assume" whether or not they are willing and/or able to bring a child into this world, they know themselves well enough to acknowledge whether or not they are willing and/or able to bring a child into this world.

    It’s not responsible to assume that your pregnancy is a private matter that affects your body alone.

    Just as a matter of semantics, that sentence does not make sense.  It is the very definition of responsible to acknowledge what the best course of action within your own life is and to choose for oneself between right and wrong.  Within the context of my reproduction, you do not (and should not) get to decide what is right for me… you may not believe that women are able to make good, informed and responsible reproductive decisions but I give women enough credit to know that they can and do.

  • janine

    So protecting the right to life over the woman’s body should not end at birth. Its not any more or less about her after its birth – the woman shouldn’t be able to override or put limits on a baby’s right to life just because the resources that it still needs (or needs once again) happen to still reside in her body. The level of protection and support for life certainly shouldn’t decrease once a baby is born.

     

    I loved my mom to much to exercise ‘fetal rights’. Thats why I stand with Frances.

  • invalid-0

    While I’m pro-choice, I don’t exactly agree with what you’ve written here. First of all, it’s arguing within the pro-lifer frame, something that unnecessarily cedes ground to their side of the debate, unsupported by reason though it is. The question is one that doesn’t need to be dignified with a pertinent answer, instead the proper answer tries to explain why the question itself is absurd.

    Thought exercises about what the fetus is thinking or what it would do or decide if it could are pointless, no matter what side of the debate is engaging in them. I might as well do a thought exercise to decide whether my milkshake wishes me to drink it or not. (Perhaps a better analogy would be whether the cow that comprised this afternoon’s hamburger desired it’s fate…) Either way, we are speaking of entities that simply don’t have the capacity we are imagining at all, and personifying them does us no good.

    The question is akin to “What if your parents hadn’t had sex on the night you were conceived?” The answers are the same as well. The only difference between the two questions is that the first one is phrased in a deliberately inflammatory manner and usually uttered in an accusatory tone.

  • invalid-0

    “every human being has a potential to give a positive impact on culture”

    every human being also has the potential to become a mass murderer, and cause terrible grief and strife. So what’s your point?

    “a woman killing an unborn child for her convenience”

    really? for convenience? how about the women who have children already, and can’t afford to feed another without her other children suffering? How about the woman who’s family believes that pre-marital sex is so bad that she would be ostracized from her family and community? How about the woman who would die if she carried the child to term? is all of that convenience?

  • http://www.myspace.com/7558749 invalid-0

    Look up Catholic Charities USA and get less ignorant.

  • invalid-0

    Soooo, guess you want women to die from coat hangers, huh? If abortion becomes illegal, that IS what will happen. Oh, guess you want to make birth control illegal, too? What you do not realize is that YOUR beliefs are not in line with EVERYONE ELSE’S. If you don’t believe in it, whatever, but what you have to realize is that it is not your right to push your beliefs on the world. Abortion is not wrong, and the US does not force you to have one. Therefore stop whining about how wrong it is. Get over it. You and that church are not the moral police for the whole US.

  • invalid-0

    How do I not realize that my beliefs aren’t in line with everyone else’s? I’ve known that my whole life.
    Of course I don’t want women to die from coat hangers. That’s ridiculous. But I don’t want babies dying from abortion either. Women also die from abortion, by the way; http://www.feministsforlife.org/weremember/index.htm
    When the ists blew up the twin towers on September 11th, 2001, they thought they were doing the right thing. We didn’t. But how dare we push our beliefs on everyone else? They think they’re doing the right thing, so let’s have them going around blowing things up and people. We can’t push our beliefs on them!

    • invalid-0

      Those are the two options. You cannot make abortion illegal without taking responsibility for the fact that this will *cause* women to die from illegal abortions.

      Women have abortions–even when they are illegal and dangerous– because they feel they are doing what’s best for the future of their children and families. You can’t change a woman’s desire to protect her family. But you can affect how often women face unintended pregnancies that necesitate abortion. And you can affect how many women will die or be injured from illegal abortion.

      THere are two areas that can be changed—-how many women die and the number of abortions.

      If you care about reducing the number of abortions—you will work to maximize access and education about contraception as well as improve resources for families. *Those* are the effective measures that reduce the number of abortions. Interestingly, “pro-life” organizations work to oppose these things.

      If you care about women’s lives (and people who don’t should remember, it’s bad for children when mothers die) you will work to keep abortion legal. The legality of abortion does not significantly affect the number of abortions but it does affect how many women will die.

      We see in countries that maximize contraception and have legal, accessible abortion–there are low numbers of abortions and low numbers of women dying. Countries where abortion is illegal and contraception is not available have high numbers of abortion and high numbers of women dying.

      Pro-choice is the position that values life the most.

      PS Please don’t cite or read from “Feminists for Life”. As an Obsterician-gynecologist and researcher in public health, I can tell you they are extraordinarily misinformed about what policies do, science, health, and history.

  • invalid-0

    The pill is a suitable choice for the majority of women.
    Most of the reasons a women aborts a child is that she can’t bear to give it up for adoption, because the baby is handicapped, because she isn’t ready to have children, because she’s afraid of what her family might think, because the father doesn’t want to help raise it, etc. I do know the reasons. But that still doesn’t make sense. A woman terminating her baby’s life because she doesn’t want it to have a bad life for various reasons is pretty absurd. That’s like kill all the handicapped people and people in comas to put them out of their misery.
    When a child is killed, doesn’t the child in some way become everyone’s child? That child would’ve made some sort of difference in our world, he would’ve been someone if he hadn’t been killed. Strangers who had never met the child would’ve felt sorry that he had been killed because he didn’t deserve it. That’s what happens when an abortion takes place.

    • invalid-0

      You need a more accurate frame to understand the reasons women have abortions.

      Women make hard choices about pregnancy and abortion because they care about raising children well. WOmen make the decision to continue or discontinue a pregnancy in order to defend the health, safety and well-being of the children she has and/or the children she hopes to have.

      When continuing a pregnancy is seen as a threat to a womans’ ability to take good care of the children she already has, she often makes a decision based on responsibility to protect her ability to care for the children that already exist.

      Reproductive decisions are made with an extreme understanding and respect for what an important and all-encompassing job it is to be a good parent.

      With the frames of “protecting the health and well-being of their families and future families” and “the desire to be an excellent parent for their children”—now you can understand all the individual reasons about not having the finances to raise a child, not being in a stable relationship that a child needs, not having the maturity to raise a child well…….etc.

  • invalid-0

    Hey Relentl3ss, sorry to break it to you, but ALL life IS
    SACRED, says GOD ! Jeremiah 1:5 ; Isaiah 44:2.
    As you can see I am 100% PRO-LIFE !! If a mother doesn’t
    want her child…..let her give it up for ADOPTION !!
    There are so many couples out there that would love to give her child a home ! There’s ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR
    ABORTION !!!!!!! I truely believe this nation is going to pay dearly for the murder of millions of unborn babies!
    This country has allowed 40 million plus children to be
    murdered ! Think of the tax money that is gone.
    We talk about SS and how in a number of years it could be bankrupt. Well, guess what people, you’ve got yourselves
    to blame ! Rght now we are helping to take care of the
    generations ahead of us. By the time I and those around my age retire, there won’t be much because there won’t be enough people in the work force to keep things going.
    We’ve killed them ! Think about this : From 1973 to 1988,
    that’s 15 years. Think of the number of children that
    were killed those years. Now, had they been allowed to
    live, they could possibly be in the work force,contributing
    to society, to SS, and the taxes the Federal Gov. relies
    on. Many could possibly be married and have families of
    their own. Quite possibly there could be more young men
    in our Military, helping to protect this great country.
    WE WILL NEVER KNOW !! BECAUSE THOSE CHILDREN WERE NEVER
    GIVEN THE CHANCE TO LIVE BECAUSE OF PURE SELFISHNESS !!
    I mentioned adoption and I know I’ll have someone asking
    the question of how I know.
    Well, I DO KNOW. IT’s 17 years this past Feb. 18 that I gave up a baby boy for adoption. Was it hard ?
    It was the hardest thing I EVER had to do.
    My marriage was falling apart, I had 2 boys already in foster care, I had just started a job, the last thing I
    needed was another baby. I could have very easily had
    an abortion. Infact my then-husband wanted me to have an
    abortion. I couldn’t do that. So, I chose adoption.
    And I have absolutely NO REGRETS !! I have seen him
    many times over the last 17 years and he’s doing GREAT !

    I know I’ve said alot here, but I had to get it out.
    I just don’t see how women can live with themselves.
    I do believe that each and every woman that has an abortion and all the Drs. and nurses that perform abortions will
    stand before God with the blood of those babies on their hands. Unless they ask for His forgiveness and truly
    mean it.

    • http://myspace.com/saynathespiffy invalid-0

      Social Security is the reason why I should lose my reproductive rights? I don’t see how having more and more babies each generation is going to help us financially. It’s just going to strain all our resources. Think about it.

      Quite possibly there could be more young men
      in our Military, helping to protect this great country.

      And you title your post “all life is sacred”? Apparently that only includes American lives.

      Your whole argument seems to be about protecting the future. Well, I’d like the next generations to have control over their own bodies so that they can make the decision that’s best for them. I’d like for them not to be forced to remain pregnant and give birth against their will.

  • invalid-0

    This will help you see how the baby lives in the womb:

    When does life begin?

    Biology is crystal clear that at the moment of conception (also known as fertilization), a unique, organism comes into existence. Since this new life possesses human DNA and is the offspring of human parents, it can legitimately only be described as human life.

    Since there can be no question that human zygotes, embryos and fetuses are alive, some have attempted to claim that human beings are not “persons,” until some threshold is crossed, such as viability, the capacity to feel pain, birth, or even the first year after birth. The merits of such notions can be debated, but it should be clear that they are not based on science but rather on ideology, philosophy or belief.

    As far as observable science is concerned, human life begins at conception.
    What happens at the moment of conception?

    At the moment of conception, a male sperm unites with a female ovum. The single-celled entity formed by the sperm and oocyte (egg) is known as a zygote.

    At conception, the zygote has 23 chromosomes and approximately 50,000 genes from each parent, which combine to determine all of one’s physical characteristics, including , facial features, body type, and color of hair, eyes, and skin.

    What’s the difference between “fertilization” and “implantation”?

    Fertilization, also known as conception, is described above. Fertilization occurs in the Fallopian tube.

    After fertilization, the tiny human being travels down the fallopian tube. Implantation, which occurs 8 to 10 days after fertilization, refers to the point at which the baby (now scientifically referred to as an “embryo”), implants in the mother’s uterus and begins to draw nourishment.
    What are the various stages of development in the womb?

    Many stages of prenatal development can be identified, especially in the early days and weeks of life when change takes place at an extremely rapid pace. The following are the primary stages:

    * Zygote—A single-celled human being from the moment of conception until the first cell division
    * Blastocyst—A human being possessing 40 to 150 cells in the shape of a tiny ball; the placenta will develop from the outer cells, while the body develops from the inner cells.
    * Embryo—A human being from the time of the first cell division up until approximately the eighth week of life
    * Fetus—A human being from about the eighth week of life up until birth

    To this list of stages of human development we might also add newborn, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, and senior—the continuum of human life which begins with conception.
    Trimesters of pregnancy

    Prenatal development and pregnancy can also be divided into trimesters:

    * First Trimester—From conception to 12 weeks gestation
    * Second Trimester—From 13 through 27 weeks gestation
    * Third Trimester—From 28 weeks gestation to birth

    Abortion is legal at all stages of pregnancy, from conception until the unborn baby’s body is completely born, at which moment the child may no longer be legally killed.

    When does the unborn child’s heart begin to beat?

    A baby’s heart begins to beat 18 days from conception, and by 21 days the heart is pumping through a closed circulatory system.
    When can the unborn child’s brain waves be detected?

    A baby’s brainwaves can be detected at 6 weeks from conception.
    When do fingerprints appear on the unborn child’s hands?

    Fingerprints have formed on an unborn child’s hands by 14 weeks from conception.
    When can the unborn child feel pain?

    By 9 weeks from conception, all the structures necessary for pain sensation are functioning.

    A 2005 study published in JAMA and widely reported in the mainstream media claimed that fetuses do not feel pain before the third trimester. However, serious questions have been raised about this study, whose authors include a NARAL activist and an abortionists. This conflict of interest was not disclosed by JAMA.

    What are some of the other milestones of fetal development?

    In addition to the unborn child’s heartbeat, brainwaves, fingerprints and capacity to feel pain, other important milestones include:

    * At 4 weeks from conception, a baby’s eye, ear, and respiratory systems begin to form.
    * ucking has been documented at 7 weeks from conception.
    * At 8 weeks from conception, a baby’s heartbeat can be detected by ultrasonic stethoscope.
    * By 9 weeks from conception, a baby is able to bend her fingers around an object in her hand.
    * By 11 to 12 weeks from conception, the baby is breathing fluid steadily and continues to do so until birth.
    * By 11 weeks from conception, a baby can swallow.
    * Between 13 and 15 weeks from conception, a baby’s taste buds are present and functioning.
    * At 20 weeks, and perhaps as early as 16 weeks from conception, a baby is capable of hearing his mother’s heartbeat and external noises like music.
    * At 23 weeks from conception, babies have been shown to strate rapid eye movements (REM), which are characteristic of active dream states.
    * At six months from conception, a baby’s oil and sweat glands are functioning.
    * At seven months from conception, a baby frequently “exercises” in preparation for birth by stretching and kicking.
    * At eight months from conception, a baby’s skin begins to thicken, and swallows a gallon of amniotic fluid each day and often hiccups.
    * During the ninth month from conception, a baby gains half a pound per week. Of the 45 generations of cell divisions before hood, 41 have already taken place.

    How can I learn more about fetal development?

    Many resources are available in print and online for learning more about fetal development. Some of the best books and websites include:
    Books on Fetal Development

    * A Child is Born by Lennart Nilsson (Dell Publishing, 2003)
    * From Conception to Birth: A Life Unfolds by Alexander Tsiaras (Doubleday, 2002)

    Websites on Fetal Development

    * Science for Unborn Human Life
    * Just the Facts
    * Visembryo

    I’m not posting on this website anymore. I most definitely have not changed my views that an infant in the womb is a living breathing human being, but I’m not communicating in the right way and I’m just getting people angry, so I will not post anymore.

  • mellankelly1

    I do believe that each and every woman that has an abortion and all the Drs. and nurses that perform abortions will
    stand before God with the blood of those babies on their hands. Unless they ask for His forgiveness and truly
    mean it.

    I do believe that every Doctor that risks his or her life to provide these women the help that they need is a hero and will be blessed for their unselfishness in whatever comes after this life.  I believe that what a third party may feel about a woman who has chosen to terminate her pregnancy is completely irrelevant to that woman and her God.  I don’t believe having an abortion requires forgiveness from anyone or anything at all.  I believe that each person is entitled to his or her own opinion about abortion and I firmly believe that opinion is relevant to no other person.

  • invalid-0

    But that still doesn’t make sense. A woman terminating her baby’s life because she doesn’t want it to have a bad life for various reasons is pretty absurd. That’s like kill all the handicapped people and people in comas to put them out of their misery.

    Handicapped and comatose people are already born,plus the latter were sentient at one time. As an argument,this song doesn’t even make the Hot 1,000.

    When a child is killed, doesn’t the child in some way become everyone’s child? That child would’ve made some sort of difference in our world, he would’ve been someone if he hadn’t been killed. Strangers who had never met the child would’ve felt sorry that he had been killed because he didn’t deserve it. That’s what happens when an abortion takes place.

    No,it doesn’t become “everyone’s child”. The opnions and wishes of third parties have no bearing on this matter. And then we come to the second song, the moldy oldy “the child could make a difference”. Speculation looks like a compelling argument on the surface,but it is ultimately useless when looked at closely.

  • mellankelly1

    The pill is a suitable choice for the majority of women.

    Well, being that I am not "the majority" of women and that there are other women who are also not good candidates for the pill I still stand by my statement that the pill is not a suitable choice for all women.  I still stand by my statement that if one is truly interested in ending the need for abortion that they should use their time and energy in researching what can realistically be done to reduce unwanted pregnancy; and stop attempting to take rights away from women.

    Most of the reasons a women aborts a child is that she can’t bear to give it up for adoption

    Where did you get that?  Adoption is not an alternative to abortion; adoption is an alternative to raising your child yourself.  When a woman has an unwanted pregnancy her options are gestation or termination.  Period.  If a woman decides to gestate her pregnancy she then must decide whether adoption is a suitable choice for her.

    Further, studies done (and there have been few) reflect that the majority of women cited a variety of socioeconomic and family considerations as their main reasons for seeking an abortion. 

    …because the baby is handicapped, because she isn’t ready to have children, because she’s afraid of what her family might think, because the father doesn’t want to help raise it, etc. I do know the reasons

    In all honesty, no, you most certainly do not know the reasons.  Please do what you can to find out the true reasons women chose to terminate their pregnancies before you start judging them for it (it doesn’t help when you use inaccurate information as a basis for your argument).

    But that still doesn’t make sense. A woman terminating her baby’s life because she doesn’t want it to have a bad life for various reasons is pretty absurd.

    I’ve found that when a person loathes abortion so much so that the life of the pregnant woman becomes irrelevant that person has gone to a place where most rational people simply cannot follow.

    That’s like kill all the handicapped people and people in comas to put them out of their misery.

    Abortion is absolutely nothing like that and might I add that comparing a handicapped person to a fetus is degrading and offensive.

    When a child is killed, doesn’t the child in some way become everyone’s child

    What are you talking about?  When a person is killed (at whatever age) it effects society in many different ways.

    That’s what happens when an abortion takes place.

    No, it’s not.  When an abortion takes place, a pregnancy has been terminated.  Period.

  • invalid-0

    Did you even read my reasons how a baby is alive in the womb? Everything you said was based on the fact that the baby isn’t living.

  • invalid-0

    anti-choice is used in this case meaning that you are against the choice to have an abortion, whereas pro-life implies that you are for life in all sorts of stances (such as being anti-death penalty).

    pro-choice merely gives the meaning that that person is for the choice of someone to have an abortion. pro-death would imply that that individual is for death as an alternative to any decision (death penalty, abortion, dealing with POWs, and so on).

    I would guess that most of the people on this board are not necessarily pro-death, though some may be. Since the discussion is about abortion, pro-and anti-choice are terms that make sense.

    Though I suppose you could be pro-antiabortion?

  • mellankelly1

    Did you even read my reasons how a baby is alive in the womb? Everything you said was based on the fact that the baby isn’t living

    I have never made the statement that a zygote an embryo or a fetus is not alive and nothing that I said was based on whether or not a zygote, an embryo or a fetus is alive.  This is precisely the reason why reading comprehension is so important.  If you will please re-read my responses to your posts I would greatly appreciate it and you will clearly see that I included the specific comments made by you that I was referring to (none of which included me insisting that a zygote/embryo/fetus was not alive).  My retorts are all valid as they stand, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from putting words in my mouth.

  • invalid-0

    I was referring to the very long post that I put up after it.
    I told you before, I wont be commenting on this website anymore, so just read the article I posted about why I believe what I do. That will be more informative than if I told you myself.

  • mellankelly1

    I was referring to the very long post that I put up after it.

    I did read your post.  I am also very familiar with human reproduction and human embryology.  I’ve also been pregnant four times and carried to term and given birth three times so I am thoroughly aware of the process.  None of that changes any statement that I’ve ever made about abortion.  I still 100% support a womans right to choose whether or not to remain pregnant.

    I told you before, I wont be commenting on this website anymore, so just read the article I posted about why I believe what I do. That will be more informative than if I told you myself.

    I am sorry if you feel that you cannot comment on this website… I believe it is important for people to have an open dialogue about abortion but you must understand that people feel just as passionately about a woman’s right to choose as you do about taking that right away.  Sometimes people get emotional about it.  I do my best to keep from being judgemental and/or emotional towards others when speaking up for women’s rights and I apologize if you felt that I was being hostile towards you.  If nothing else, I hope that you will attempt to research unbiased information regarding abortion and learn more about the women who have opted to terminate their pregnancies.

  • invalid-0

    A haploid cell is still living. Every single cell is alive. Are we committing murder when we scratch ourselves or spill our blood? Is a man killing babies every time he masturbates (wait, don’t answer that…Catholics think that, don’t they?) or even has sex (for every sperm that eventually fertilizes the egg, MILLIONS die)?

    This “scientific” explanation (definitely nothing like what I read of in my biology textbook) seems to be (correct me if I’m wrong and it’s a valid, educational source – although the comma use suggests otherwise) skewed. For instance:

    “When does life begin? … As far as observable science is concerned, human life begins at conception.”

    That’s not the question. If this were a reliable source, the question would match the answer. Assuming they just forgot a word, pardon using that for an example. However, if I’m right and you’re suggesting that it’s wrong to take ALL life, then see my first paragraph.

    Sorry to all reading this that it’s so disorganized, but I have trouble articulating this many thoughts in any chronological manner.

  • invalid-0

    Amen.

  • mellankelly1

    When the ists blew up the twin towers on September 11th, 2001, they thought they were doing the right thing. We didn’t. But how dare we push our beliefs on everyone else? They think they’re doing the right thing, so let’s have them going around blowing things up and people. We can’t push our beliefs on them!

    Those people hated us for our freedoms… for our democracy… and if you’re an American woman that just hated you for being an American woman.  They used their religious beliefs as an excuse to kill innocent people.  They would force their beliefs on us if they could.  Sound like pro-choice advocates to you?  Who is it that wishes to deny reproductive freedom to women?  Who is it that would use their religious beliefs as an excuse to deny a woman her basic rights?  Who is attempting to force their beliefs on others who do not share those beliefs?  Pro-choice advocates?  I think not.

  • invalid-0

    The most astounding part of the whole pro-life vs pro-choice argument is that pro-lifers present giving birth to the baby as a punishment you have to deal with for having sex. Bringing a new life into this world should never be a consequence, it should be a well-thought out choice that a mother or parents make. If a woman has goals in life, she should not give them up and accept the “punishment” of not being able to realize her goals just to have a baby who would probably end up unhappy in life anyway. Parents should always be ready to have a baby, and not be forced into it.

  • invalid-0

    Sweetheart. Everyone isn’t Catholic. If you studied demographics perhaps you in your 15 Year old wisdom would see this. Life is very complicated and the bible is for simple minded solutions to big problems. The same book you claim to believe in has God instructing tribes to cut out the unborn fetuses of it’s enemies and bash them against rocks until dead. Perhaps you should actually read that book before telling others to follow it.

  • invalid-0

    Oh, I just love that comment- “what if that fetus was a genius or something”. For your information, Hitler, Stalin, Bush and all the other greedy demons in the world were also once innocent babes. So, who knows what evil is being prevented, (wars, etc) by an abortion.

  • invalid-0

    incoherent – you are not the ‘I’ who was a fetus, but ‘As a fetus I would have gladly given up my chance’. incredible. apart from your apostasy, you have given up on reason as well.

  • mellankelly1

    incoherent – you are not the ‘I’ who was a fetus, but ‘As a fetus I would have gladly given up my chance’. incredible. apart from your apostasy, you have given up on reason as well.

    Ah, by those standards, I would offer that those who ask the question "What if your mother had aborted you?" have also given up on reason.  The "answer" is quite befitting the question.

  • invalid-0

    She is 86 years old now and has never had a happy or peaceful day in her life. My three sisters and I had a hellish upbringing at her hands, although she was and is a devout Catholic and she and my father put on a great show of normality to the outside world. The last thing she needed was to have four children, but that is what her culture and her church and her husband demanded of her.
    If she had aborted me, I would obviously never have had the consciousness to comment about it, or feel any reaction to her decision in any way. I think she might well have had a happier life, and the psychiatric treatment she needed, if she had not been buried alive in a house with four children.

  • invalid-0

    Adoption is no alternative to abortion. It is just a way to victimize women with few financial resources and transfer their children to people who are better-off economically.

  • invalid-0

    I would NOT be willing to die to improve ANYONE’s life.

    And if you die via a coathanger abortion, just who’s fault is that? Who was the one who shoved a sharp metal wire up their vagina? Coathangers are for coats, so keep them out of your body!

    And abortion is NOT a religious issue.

    l4l.org
    godlessprolifers.org

  • mellankelly1

    And if you die via a coathanger abortion, just who’s fault is that

    Isn’t that lovely?  Nothing like the blame-game, is there?  As long as abortion remains safe and legal no woman would be forced to endure an illegal abortion so the question would be moot.  Criminalizing abortion will certainly not end abortion, it will force those women who do not have the means to procure a safe abortion to chance death from an illegal and unsafe procedure… although, it would appear as if you’re a-okay with that.

  • janine

    Yep,

    Using women’s bodies on behalf of other entities, subordinating her self-determination
    to these other interests, and legally prohibiting women from stopping it has not
    just been a religious issue but often a non-religious one too.

     

    And of course life is only worth protecting over anothers body as long as the body being violated can be restricted to a womans.

     

    Certain cannulas were made for vaginas and uteruses.

  • invalid-0

    Two pages of comments, and let’s just simplify a complex issue: what any woman does with her body is none of the government’s business. None of the church’s business. None of my business. It’s her business, and we should protect her right to a safe abortion.

    Now.

    The entire Catholic belief system is predicated on the denial of women’s sexuality: the virgin birth.

    Why might that be, I wonder?

    The Bible is a hotchpotch collection of works put together by a council of men. Celibate men.

    Spotting a pattern here? Join the dots…

    That a 2,000-year-old desert cult that pretends babies came from a virgin should have anything to do with the reproductive health of half the planet is still astonishing to me. More astonisihing yet is the fact that they are even allowed into the debate.

    And when that same religious order that talks of love for life is responsible for the sexual abuse of many thousands of children worldwide, words cease to matter.

  • invalid-0

    i agree, you cant judge people for choosing the course that is best for them, there are so many reasons for abortion and it should be a right worldwide for a woman to have the choice to do what is best for her situation, if you live in a country where abortion is legal then you should fight to keep that right accesable to everyone, not fight the fact that it is a choice that will be taken weather its legal or not, i think its better to provide the women of the world with the safe facilitys, rather that have them seek illegal ways of terminating not only the pragnancy but in too many cases their own lives. i grew up in one of the most conservative places in the world, and abortion is completely illegal in this country but i stand strong on my view of being pro choice, and i support the right to abortion. so dont judge anyone, try to be more understanding. and always remember that its not your choice or buisiness to try and control someone elses body. look beyond your own beleifs and understand that it is not for everyone, you need to tolerate other peoples beleifs, and choices.

  • invalid-0

    I wont make this about religion. And i am undecided leaning towards pro life… following are the questions that cause me to lean more towards life. Please read, and use rationality rather than emotion for once. (I know this is politics so i am probably asking too much).

    1. How do people who feel abortion should be allowed throughout a woman’s life feel about killing babies soon after they are born?

    I mean I guess the argument that as long as it is attached to my body I shouldn’t give a damn about it but that seems a bit selfish and :\ to me. because any arguments you make can be just as legitimately made for a newborn (except one which is addressed below) I’m talking 6-8 months here.

    I wonder about people like this and their outlook on life. Is your life only sacred if you are a contributing member of society? Has your basic survival instincts been so destroyed by the convenience of the modern world that you feel so callous about the values that have long held up our communities. I have a feeling a lot of people who argue for abortion feel this way and that’s fine.. but don’t hide it behind some sort of holier than thou i’m trying to look out for the life of the mother nonsense. It’s just an overall devaluing of life. Which is what most pro-lifers are afraid for than the actual fetus, it’s sort of a slipery slope sort of fear. There’s just something a bit icky and anti-human about it.

    In line with this extreme example.. There’s no excuse for killing a baby at 8 months unless you’ve lost your soul.

    2. The “you’re trying to take a way my choice” argument has never really held up with me.

    I mean… if I go out and get wasted…. I mean this is a totally inocuous thing for a younger person to do but… there’s a possibility that something really bad can happen. You take that risk because the idea of having fun is worth more to you than the risk of doing something stupid that could put you or other people’s lives in danger. But when you do do something stupid while wasted you have to pay the punishment for it, in the case of sleeping with an underage girl that looks old up to 10 years in prison.

    Now.. when you have sex you accept that there are certain risks….disease, emotional distress, pregnancy. Nobody is FORCING you to have sex (except in rape). You CHOOSE to engage because the pleasure is worth more to you than the potential bad outcome. If you didn’t have sex you would be 100% sure that you would NOT get pregnant. Now, I see the pregnancy the same way as i see the jail sentence. Act = sex Consequence = pregnancy, no one impinged on your choice as you had the choice not to engange in the act.

    Now that you have put another life into the equation (as with the underage girl in the previous example), it is perfectly O.K. and even the DUTY of society to try to figure out the way that life should be treated or if it should be protected for the greater good of the community. The same way as there are limits on what you can due to your children even though you are the one taking care of them. Remember as in my first commments it is more values that keep a society functioning than anything else. Laws are almost never made to be what is most convenient to YOU it’s what’s convenient for society as a whole ESPECIALLY when it involves another life.

    Now society may come to the conclusion that the life is not worth protecting, but it’s a perfectly legitimate question to ask and i resent all the assholes who insult anyone who dares to inconvenience them by asking the question.

    3. Now you’ll say…’Well it’s MY BODY!”, NOT another life, that doesn’t hold up too well with me either.

    The first part of this argument is that a fetus is too little developed to be a life, so it should be just treated as an inocuous blob attached to my body. but the dividing line is just so arbitrary, and at a point it becomes absurd and heartless (full term), where you stop before that is random.

    Second part: One pro-life website once made this argument. If a man had to be attached to me for a year or he will die i have every right to kill him as it’s not my responsibility to take care of him at the expense of my own body. Well, yea but.. not exactly. In the case of abortion it would be like if you PURPOSELY pushed a man down the stairs and put him in the position where he had to be attached to you for a year.

    It’s basically your fault that the fetus is in the position that it is in, so that makes it a bit different. It’s the same reason why people tend to think people who abuse children are monsters.. children are so innocent, having no way to defend themselves and totally at the mercy of those taking care of them. That’s why society protects them even from their parents. You can’t just up and decide to kill your kid cuz your in some crackpot religion that makes you think it would be the best for them. Just like you cant for instance kill your baby because you don’t think it would be happy in foster care… or your fetus for that matter.

  • invalid-0

    I’m only going to address the second one, because it seems like the most egregious nonsense to me, out of all the flawed reasoning you’ve presented here.

    .
    First of all, do you believe there should be a rape exception to abortion laws? Because if you don’t, it’s ridiculous for you to even bother discussing the role you think a woman’s decision to have sex has in the matter.

    .
    If you do, it really encapsulates it for me, what this whole abortion thing seems to be about for the anti-choicers. It’s about women choosing to do things they don’t like (sex) and the feeling those women should be punished with ‘consequences,’ for those choices. If you believe this, then it’s obviously logical for you to support a rape exception, even if the fetus isn’t any different than one conceived accidentally during voluntary sex.

    .
    In all the times I’ve had a discussion about this with anti-choicers, it always comes across that the perceived impropriety of the woman is the factor more important to the abortion issue than the fetus.

    .
    For instance, they usually, like you have done, start off with some anecdotal example about an inarguably irresponsible woman getting pregnant. (In your case, a teen who gets wasted.) It’s obviously important to project this feeling that the people you’re talking about were very careless and really deserved it, but if you talk to most of these people a little further, they will tell you they don’t care if the accidental pregnancy was between a married couple using contraception regularly, its still the same thing. In fact, in their eyes, there is literally *nothing* a woman can do to be responsible about having sex.

    .
    It’s obviously an odd stand point, if you think about it… Kinda like saying that nobody is FORCING you to drive your car to work, and if you CHOOSE to get behind the wheel, doing it because the convenience of driving is more important than the potential outcome, then you CHOOSE to get horribly injured in a traffic accident, because the only way to be 100% certain it wouldn’t happen would’ve been to stay home.

    .
    People accept minor risk all the time. It’s always there in your life, driving, swimming, even while at work. Sex is the only area where there seems to be a dedicated group telling you that the very existence of risk means you don’t have a choice in dealing with the fallout. Kind of like telling the fictional driver from the last paragraph that they can’t have medical treatment because they chose to get in the car (and thus made the choice to get injured).

    .
    Pregnancy is a consequence, of course, but so is abortion. A reasonable way of taking responsibility when things go wrong unexpectedly. Maybe abortion doesn’t make people suffer enough to satisfy the ones who think that the woman actually did something *wrong* when she had sex, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is still a consequence.

  • invalid-0

    I’m so sick of people saying that if you want them to take responsibility for their own actions you are “anti choice” and abortion is the only way to protect free choice. Wake up my sisters! None of you are posting from North Korea. This is a free country and you don’t have to sleep with anyone! If you want to have sex and you don’t want to have babies then for Christ’s sake use one of the eight million forms of birth control out there! If you are not confident that it will work then use back up birth control. It’s not difficult to find. It’s not expensive. Things like depro-provera or the pill are usually covered by insurance and for very poor women they are free. There is only one way anyone is going to get pregnant without having made a voluntary choice about sexual activity and another voluntary choice about birth control. That is if she is a victim of rape. Emergency rooms routinely give emergency birth control to rape victims even if they don’t press charges. Now lets says there is a very unlikely case where a rape victim can’t get emergency birth control in time or it doesn’t work. Well, in light of the fact that she NEVER got to have a say regarding sex or birth control she should be able to have a choice now. If that choice is abortion, fine. I certainly can’t expect a woman to take responsibility for a rapist’s choice, but in the case of the vast majority of pregnancys which do not result from rape I certainly can expect a woman to take responsibility for what she voluntarily did regarding sex and voluntarily didn’t do regarding birth control. Now, if she’s retarded or if she’s so young she couldn’t make an informed decision about sex then certainly you could argue that she too was raped and should have the option of abortion. Having said that, if you are at least sixteen, have an iq in triple digits and voluntarily chose to engage in sex without adequate birth control then I’m sorry but it’s time to take responsibility for the series of choices you have already made. I’m not anti choice. I’m just anti abortion as a choice after you’ve made all the decisions in behavior leading up to it. Anybody wonder why we don’t have any “pro choice” fifteen year olds posting here? Kids tend to adopt their parents value systems. Children are born to and raised by people who are willing to bear and raise them.

  • mellankelly1

    This is a free country and you don’t have to sleep with anyone!

    Yes, this is a free country… and if you’re an adult, you can sleep with any consenting adult that you choose to sleep with. 

    If you want to have sex and you don’t want to have babies then for Christ’s sake use one of the eight million forms of birth control out there! If you are not confident that it will work then use back up birth control. It’s not difficult to find. It’s not expensive. Things like depro-provera or the pill are usually covered by insurance and for very poor women they are free. There is only one way anyone is going to get pregnant without having made a voluntary choice about sexual activity and another voluntary choice about birth control.

    Where on earth did you get the impression that women who have abortions were not using some form of contraception?  You need to do more research regarding a) forms of birth control women used during the month that they became unintentionally pregnant and b) access to reproductive services for low-income women.  It must be so nice for you to be able to judge the one million or so women who opt to end their pregnancies each year.   I’m sure that you do everything just perfectly and that luck has played no role in your lifetime.

     That is if she is a victim of rape. Emergency rooms routinely give emergency birth control to rape victims even if they don’t press charges. Now lets says there is a very unlikely case where a rape victim can’t get emergency birth control in time or it doesn’t work.

    And I’m sure that EC has and will continue to play a role in reducing unwanted pregnancies.  You must know that this only recently has been the case, right?  And that "Catholic" hospitals will not offer EC to victims of rape.  And that some pharmacists will not give EC to women. 

    Well, in light of the fact that she NEVER got to have a say regarding sex or birth control she should be able to have a choice now. If that choice is abortion, fine. I certainly can’t expect a woman to take responsibility for a rapist’s choice, but in the case of the vast majority of pregnancys which do not result from rape I certainly can expect a woman to take responsibility for what she voluntarily did regarding sex and voluntarily didn’t do regarding birth control

    Oh.  So it has less to do with the developing life and more to do with the circumstances surrounding the intercourse.  Hmmm… so, if a woman willingly engages in sexual intercourse her fertilized egg is different than the fertilized egg of the woman who was raped, right?  Right.  Well, it’s good to know where your heads at.

    I’m just anti abortion as a choice after you’ve made all the decisions in behavior leading up to it

    You are anti-abortion PERIOD.  It’s all about making women pay.  It’s almost like you’re anti-women.

    Kids tend to adopt their parents value systems. Children are born to and raised by people who are willing to bear and raise them.

    That doesn’t even make sense… where do all the pro-choice advocates come from… thin air? 

  • invalid-0

    Mellankelly covered pretty much everything…. but, damn. Every single thing you say in your post states and reinforces the fact that you don’t even *care* about the “baby,” so much as you care about the fact that someone, somewhere might be having enjoyable sex without having their life or future ruined by an accidental pregnancy.

  • invalid-0

    Oh. So it has less to do with the developing life and more to do with the circumstances surrounding the intercourse. Hmmm… so, if a woman willingly engages in sexual intercourse her fertilized egg is different than the fertilized egg of the woman who was raped, right? Right. Well, it’s good to know where your heads at.

    OK megankelly you do raise a valid point here. Technically the baby conceived during a rape is every bit as alive as one conceived voluntarily, but we’re supposedly talking about “choice” here. You either have one or you don’t and if you didn’t have one prior to conception then you should after the fact. Choice is important which is why I believe at some point the mother must have one but life is important too and if you’ve already had and made your choices then its time to start considering the baby’s rights and your responsibility as an adult to protect him or her.

    And that “Catholic” hospitals will not offer EC to victims of rape. And that some pharmacists will not give EC to women.

    Unfortunatly this is true. Some Catholic hospitals will not provide emergency contraception at least not directly from one of their employees. But, they are certainly not going to prevent you from calling another hospital that will and any doctor who works with rape victims is going to be sure to work only with pharmacists who will fill the rx.

    You are anti-abortion PERIOD. It’s all about making women pay. It’s almost like you’re anti-women.

    oh get a grip. You were actually presenting a solid logical arguement until you had your flashback to about the 13th centuary AD. Its not about making women pay. Its about using adaquate birth control if you don’t want to get pregnant and I’m not anti-women. I know that women have the wisdom and capability to take responsibility for their health and that of their children.

  • http://rackletang.livejournal.com invalid-0

    Not to mention the fact that unlike birth control pills, EC is only about 85% effective. So even if a woman can access someone who can and will dispense it, even if she’s not charged an outrageous sum for it since there is no generic, and even if she takes it correctly – there’s still a 15% chance she’ll get pregnant.

  • mellankelly1

    OK megankelly you do raise a valid point here. Technically the baby conceived during a rape is every bit as alive as one conceived voluntarily, but we’re supposedly talking about "choice" here. You either have one or you don’t and if you didn’t have one prior to conception then you should after the fact. Choice is important which is why I believe at some point the mother must have one but life is important too and if you’ve already had and made your choices then its time to start considering the baby’s rights and your responsibility as an adult to protect him or her.

    You appear to be stating (once again) that this is not about "life" being important (clearly you do not value the life of a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy) but about the circumstances of the woman’s pregnancy.  When you state that you believe that there should be exceptions for rape and/or incest you are agreeing that there are reasons that justify terminating a pregnancy that have nothing to do with the (moral or physical) "life" of the fetus but have everything to do with women’s proper behaviour.  You aren’t concerned with "choice" per se, you are bothered by the sexual freedoms of women.

    But, they are certainly not going to prevent you from calling another hospital that will and any doctor who works with rape victims is going to be sure to work only with pharmacists who will fill the rx.

    Really?  Have you experienced this first hand?  After a woman has suffered the emotional and physical trauma of rape what do you think being denied EC by someone who states that they are morally opposed to "killing babies" will do to this woman?  Catholic hospitals have no obligation to refer a victim of rape to any doctor, hospital and/or pharmacists that will offer her EC.

    oh get a grip. You were actually presenting a solid logical arguement until you had your flashback to about the 13th centuary AD. Its not about making women pay. Its about using adaquate birth control if you don’t want to get pregnant and I’m not anti-women. I know that women have the wisdom and capability to take responsibility for their health and that of their children.

    When you have clearly stated, more than once, that the circumstances surrounding a pregnancy are more important to you than the life of the fetus you are fully agreeing that it is about making women pay.  This was by no means a leap for me or for anyone else reading your words… you’ve been quite clear that you are against any woman who consented to sex (and possibly enjoyed it) and became unintentionally pregnant.  If this were about using birth control you’d cut a little more slack to the little over 50% of women who were using some form of birth control during the month that they became pregnant.

  • invalid-0

    megankelly: Where do you get the idea that I have some kind of anti sex attitude? Have all the sex you want. It’s none of my business. I understand that you think I’m a hypocrite because I believe life begins at conception but I don’t think a rape victim should be denied an abortion if she conceives. But, please don’t think that I am anti women or want anyone to “pay”. If you send out the message to, for instance, highschoolers: “It’s too much of a burden for you to practice birth control properly, but we’ll provide an abortion if you need it” you are setting them up for trouble. Even if none of them get pregnant, its entirely possible that they will be exposed to AIDS or another STD. If on the other hand they know that sex is an enormous responsibility they will be better prepared to prevent pregnancy and to protect their own health. I’m sure you have heard of the one in four herpes rate in NYC. If I told a woman “you need to stop smoking or you are going to get cancer” I don’t think you would say I was being anti woman. Maybe you believe that irresponsible sexual activity that results in pregnancy can easily be corrected by abortion. Lets say though the next month instead of getting pregnant the same girl gets HIV instead. There’s nothing you can do about that. The best way to prevent either of these things from happening is to arm the girl with full knowledge of the big responsibility she is taking on and exactly what steps she needs to take to prevent pregnancy and protect her health. There is nothing anti woman about that.

  • janine

    If you send out the message to, for instance, highschoolers: "It’s too much of a burden for you to practice birth control properly, but we’ll provide an abortion if you need it" you are setting them up for trouble.

    This website advocates teaching comprehensive sex education, including how to properly use birth control, contrary to the message you have stated above.

    Yes, the best way is teaching prevention for pregnancy and STDs. When this fails for either of these, people take responsibility by getting medical treatments. Taking responsibility is not yours to define or limit.

  • mellankelly1

     What? Where did I use my religious beliefs in my argument against abortion??
    And how exactly did I ‘preach to you’?

     Hmmmm… lets see now.  Well, there’s this:

    "I am Catholic. Have you studied the Catholic religion and its teaching on the sanctity of life?"

     

    And then there is this… 

    "Can you please do me a favor and read this? It gives proof that the baby is a person:

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0004.html "

     

    And this li’l nugget here appears to speak to your youth:

    "It’s not responsible to assume that your pregnancy is a private matter that affects your body alone."

    The constitution guarantee’s us that our bodies (and our pregnancies) are a private matter that affect us alone.  If one were to enact a law that gave the responsibility over our bodies to some form of government that would essentially be considered slavery.

     

    ps. obtaining your information against abortion from biased sources will never, ever prove your points.  Please take the time to research non-biased government and/or medical sites (hint… nothing "pro-life" or "anti-abortion) when attempting to support your statements.

     

    pps.  I am not making the statement that religion and/or youth are necessarily a negative thing or that you are not entitled to your opinions based on either or both of those subjects.  I am merely stating the fact that not everyone is as young as you are (and yes, they have experienced more of life and have been affected by those experiences) or of the same faith (many religious people and clergy firmly support a woman’s right to chose whether or not to continue her pregnancy).

  • mellankelly1

    Where do you get the idea that I have some kind of anti sex attitude?

    Oh… I don’t know…

    "This is a free country and you don’t have to sleep with anyone!"

    So if you choose to sleep with someone you choose to get pregnant. 

     

    "I certainly can expect a woman to take responsibility for what she voluntarily did regarding sex and voluntarily didn’t do regarding birth control"

    **although, technically this quote is both anti-sex and anti-woman (kudos on the double slam)**

     

    "I’m just anti abortion as a choice after you’ve made all the decisions in behavior leading up to it."

    So, if you’ve had sex with your partner (married or not) and either your birth control failed, you had not used it consistently or you failed to use birth control and you became unintentionally pregnant you should have no options.  These women deserve to pay for their irresponsible behaviour by gestating an unwanted pregnancy and after nine months caring for an unwanted child for at least the next 18 years.  Yes, that’s so very "pro-choice" of you.

     

     

    But, to be fair and all, I made the statement that you have an anti-woman attitude.

    "There is only one way anyone is going to get pregnant without having made a voluntary choice about sexual activity and another voluntary choice about birth control."

    Unless you’re raped you must pay…. in that situation you’ve explained that the "choice" was the rapists and not the woman’s and in your infinite generosity you would allow these woman to decide for themselves whether or not to continue with their pregnancy after, of course, proving that the pregnancy was a result of rape and not consensual sex.  How nice of you.

     

    "Having said that, if you are at least sixteen, have an iq in triple digits and voluntarily chose to engage in sex without adequate birth control then I’m sorry but it’s time to take responsibility for the series of choices you have already made"

    So, you’re an idiot if you get pregnant and deserve to take responsibility – which means "you deserve to pay".

     

    "I know that women have the wisdom and capability to take responsibility for their health and that of their children."

    **This is a confusing one being that you’ve repeatedly implied that women who become pregnant whose birth control failed (or the 47% who weren’t using birth control) deserve an unwanted pregnancy (and an unwanted child) because they were irresponsible… and by all means we should force children onto irresponsible women, that’ll teach ‘em.  Oh, how much you care about "life".  If you truly believed that women "have wisdom" then you would acknowledge their capability to take responsibility for their health and that of the children that they already have by fully supporting their decision to terminate or gestate their pregnancies.

     

     

     

  • mellankelly1

    It’s none of my business.

    Ha… a truer statement has yet to be uttered!

    If you send out the message to, for instance, highschoolers: "It’s too much of a burden for you to practice birth control properly, but we’ll provide an abortion if you need it" you are setting them up for trouble.

    What the… ?  The only way you could send that message to high-school children is if you were teaching abstinence only (and you’d definitely be setting them up for trouble). 

     Maybe you believe that irresponsible sexual activity that results in pregnancy can easily be corrected by abortion

    It would be more accurate to say that I believe that the sexual activity of another woman is absolutely none of my business and I have no right to dictate under which circumstances she may or may not engage in sexual intercourse.  If a woman is faced with an unwanted pregnancy only she can decide whether or not to continue with her pregnancy… no matter how much you believe yourself to be the proper sexual activity police, you should have no say in the matter.  Period.  Certainly you are entitled to your opinions but you simply cannot dictate under what circumstances another woman can engage in sexual activity and/or terminate her pregnancy.

     The best way to prevent either of these things from happening is to arm the girl with full knowledge of the big responsibility she is taking on and exactly what steps she needs to take to prevent pregnancy and protect her health.

    Clearly, I’ve never made the statement that there is any problem with that… I’ve taken issue with your judgmental attitude towards women who consent to sex and become unintentionally pregnant.  The very anti-woman statements you’ve made about women who either fail to take birth control or are inconsistent with it’s usage is what galls me.  You can arm men and women with the knowledge that if they do not use birth control they are more likely to become pregnant and they will still forget to take those measures on occasion.  It is human nature – in much the same way that it is human nature to be hypocritical at times or to judge complete strangers for the personal and private choices that they’ve made.

  • invalid-0

    I was actually done but then just out of curiosity I checked hoping that someone would agree on the basic arguement of “If you don’t want babies or abortions use adequate birth control.” But pitifully, you all just assume its too much responsibility to take control for your own sexual activity. One person says that more than 50% of women seeking abortions were using birth control in the month prior. What kind of birth control were they using? hope? Apparently, because even the rythem method had a dramatically lower failure rate than that. Then from someone else:This website advocates teaching conprehensive sex education, including how to properly use birth control contrary to the message you have stated above. With a 50%failure rate?You should be running an infirtility clinic. You could make a fortune. About two years ago according to Consumer Reports the two types of condoms that Planned Parenthood was distributing were also the condoms with the highest failure rate. I guess you have to follow the money and before I have to hear the raving about these glorious humanitarians check out http://www.klannedparenthood.com and see what the founders of your cause were really up to.

  • mellankelly1

     I was actually done but then just out of curiosity I checked hoping that someone would agree on the basic arguement of "If you don’t want babies or abortions use adequate birth control." But pitifully, you all just assume its too much responsibility to take control for your own sexual activity

     

     Malarkey.  You came on here and bashed women who have abortions… blaming them for being irresponsible and proceeded to point out under which circumstances abortion is acceptable to you; as if you’re opinion of a complete stranger is relevant to anyone other than yourself. 

    One person says that more than 50% of women seeking abortions were using birth control in the month prior. What kind of birth control were they using?

    Yes… studies done have reflected that over half of the women who have abortions were using a contraceptive method during the month that they became pregnant.  However, the majority of those women site inconsistent use.  Of course, not everybody can be as perfect as those claiming to have never missed a pill or used a condom improperly. Further, these studies show that of the women who did not use contraception during the month that they became pregnant, 33% had perceived themselves as being low risk for pregnancy and 26% had "unexpected" sex.  

    Hey Claken… maybe you should do proper research before spewing your rhetoric.  Although it is quite clear that you have no qualms about using misinformation (or no information) or regurgitating anti-abortion propaganda in order to get across the point that you just don’t like abortion.  

  • janine

    With a 50%failure rate?You should be running an infirtility clinic. You could make a fortune.

    News flash…contraception is about preventing pregnancy. Infertility treatments are for those who can’t get pregnant in the first place. Contraceptive failure does not correspond to better infertility treatments.

  • invalid-0

    OK Sheeple obviously you’d rather stay in an echo chamber than deal with opinions from the outside world. So I’ll leave and go back there, but in light of the comments to my posts- A word of advice. The whole “Reality Check” site name is painfully ironic. Dispite what you want to believe we ARE in the twenty first centuary. Reliable birth control is easily available to anyone who wants it as long as you’re of the age of consent. So you might be well advised to change your site name.

  • invalid-0

    First of all, I was asking Jan, not you, because she was the one who said it.

    Second of all, when I said, “I am Catholic. Have you studied the Catholic religion and its teaching on the sanctity of life?” I was replying to someone’s comment complaining about Catholicism.

    Third of all, the comment, “It’s not responsible to assume that your pregnancy is a private matter that affects your body alone.” does not ‘speaks to my youth’, because abortion does NOT affect your body alone. If it did, there’d be nothing wrong with it.

    Fourth of all, just because that article on abortion was on a catholic site, doesn’t mean abortion is about religion. I was trying to prove my point with that, not ‘preach’.

    • mellankelly1

       First of all, I was asking Jan, not you, because she was the one who said it.

      Perhaps I ought to remind you that you are on a public forum and any person can and will respond to your comments; besides, all of my comments were valid and on-point to your questions.

       Second of all, when I said, "I am Catholic. Have you studied the Catholic religion and its teaching on the sanctity of life?" I was replying to someone’s comment complaining about Catholicism.

      Oh… so your not catholic and you haven’t used your religion as an argument for being anti-abortion?  Oh-kay.

      Third of all, the comment, "It’s not responsible to assume that your pregnancy is a private matter that affects your body alone." does not ‘speaks to my youth’, because abortion does NOT affect your body alone. If it did, there’d be nothing wrong with it.

      Abortion only effects the person terminating her pregnancy and there is nothing wrong with it.  Perhaps it doesn’t speak to your youth… but it certainly speaks to a sort of naivete (if you will) about human reproduction and the rights of pregnant women.

      Fourth of all, just because that article on abortion was on a catholic site, doesn’t mean abortion is about religion.

      Well then, by all means… please provide us with an article on abortion that doesn’t involve religion if you do not wish others to believe that your stance is religiously motivated.

  • invalid-0

    clarem:

    No, birth control is not readily and easily available for everyone. Have you ever been unemployed or had a job without insurance? Your options for birth control are severely limited in those circumstances to condoms which do have a higher failure rate than hormonal birth control, or a free/sliding scale clinic which may or may not exist in your community, and which you may or may not be able to get to during open hours. And this is not even taking into account those women who cannot physically tolerate taking hormonal birth control, or pharmacists and hospitals that refuse to prescribe or fill a prescription for BC/EC, or that even taken perfectly, birth control is not 100% failsafe.

    Unintended pregnancies happen, even to the most responsible people. And since there’s no way to enforce a “Were You Responsible Enough” test before administering an abortion (assuming that such a thing were desirable in the first place), that leaves us with abortions for everyone who screws up, or abortions for no one who does.

    But then, clarem, I’m sure you’re a paragon of responsibility who’s never made a bad, youthful, hormonal decision to have unprotected sex; never had a condom tear or fall off; or never even forgotten one pill.

  • janine

    Third of all, the
    comment, "It’s not responsible to assume that your pregnancy is a private
    matter that affects your body alone." does not ‘speaks to my youth’,
    because abortion does NOT affect your body alone. If it did, there’d be nothing
    wrong with it.

    Anytime one persons body is being used on behalf of another, there
    are two bodies present – as is the case where the womans body is being used on behalf of the fetus in pregnancy. In this case the sacrifice in pregnancy on behalf of the fetus affects the woman alone. Our legal framework supports the right of the person whose bodily integrity is being interfered with in the first place for another to stop it.

  • invalid-0

    Perhaps I ought to remind you that you are on a public forum and any person can and will respond to your comments; besides, all of my comments were valid and on-point to your questions.
    —————–
    Yes, that’s true. The thing is, I was asking Jan to explain it to me herself.
    —————–
    Oh… so your not catholic and you haven’t used your religion as an argument for being anti-abortion? Oh-kay.
    —————–
    I never said I wasn’t Catholic. And no, I don’t think I’ve ever used my religion as an argument against abortion. Usually the person I’m speaking to isn’t Catholic. I also don’t like to do it because people think the abortion debate is a religious one, and I don”t want to encourage that.
    —————–
    Abortion only effects the person terminating her pregnancy and there is nothing wrong with it. Perhaps it doesn’t speak to your youth… but it certainly speaks to a sort of naivete (if you will) about human reproduction and the rights of pregnant women.
    —————–
    I’m sure you know that the fetus is a human being. When a woman has an abortion, she isn’t acually murdering that life (murder’s a legal term) but she is killing it. That affects the fetus.
    —————–
    Well then, by all means… please provide us with an article on abortion that doesn’t involve religion if you do not wish others to believe that your stance is religiously motivated.
    —————–
    http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionresponses.html
    http://members.tripod.com/~SLV80/
    http://www.efn.org/~bsharvy/abortion.html
    Let me know if you want more.

  • mellankelly1

    http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionresponses.html

    Regarding the national right to life site… they consistently use misinformation, pseudoscience, half truths and outright lies on their sites.  Point in case: one of the first claims is that most abortion are not done until the ninth week.  They do not give any proof for their claim so I went to CDC and found that 62% of all abortions (which would be over half) are done prior to the ninth week.  They go on to make the claim that at the time that most abortions are performed the embryo or early fetus has "brain waves" – again, no sources (shocking) and if you care to research (again, I cannot stress the importance of using non-biased medical sources) you will find that a fetus at 8 weeks has live nerve cells present in their brain stems (these are most certainly NOT "brain waves"; brain waves refer to organized activity in the cortex which are first seen at 20 weeks, sustained at 22 weeks and synchronous at 26-27 weeks).  If you’d like I could go on about the inaccuracy, pseudoscience and the knowing use of misinformation on the remainder of the nrlc site.

  • mellankelly1

    http://members.tripod.com/~SLV80/

    This Pro-Life Feminsm site is no different than and pro-choice site…  those types of sites list people’s opinions on why the feel that abortion is wrong.  There are no legal or scientific sources listed to support these personal opinions.  Although using this site and the nrlc site as a response to my statement of "please provide us with an article on abortion that doesn’t involve religion if you do not wish others to believe that your stance is religiously motivated" is completely valid as I’ve not come across any blatantly religiously motivated reasoning on either of those sites.  However, using either of these sites as a compelling reason to deny rights to a pregnant women (that every other citizen in our country has) is a fallacy.

  • invalid-0

    Well I don’t know about you, but if I found out that my parents tried to have me aborted then I’d probably box them in the face.

  • marysia

    Frances,

    I am truly sorry for the sacrifices your mother was made to put up with for you.  But the sacrificing of your chance at life, even in your very beginning stages, wouldn’t have been fair, either.

    I can relate to some of the things you say, because my own mother has had a much harder life than she deserved, in part because the responsibility for me was thrown so hard back on her. 

    But I have deserved to be alive since before I was born, every bit as much as she has deserved to be treated with the dignity and full, real societal support she needed but did not receive as a parent and a person in general.

    Someone once defined abortion to me as the cutting off of human potential, whether born or unborn.  Social conditions so often force a woman to sacrifice either herself or her child.  If collective responsibility were taken for these conditions and the sacredness of both unborn and already-born lives was genuinely respected, no doubt the abortion rate would plummet.